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Nonprofit Radio for July 5, 2021: Your 5-Point, 1-Hour Legal Audit

My Guest:

Gene Takagi: Your 5-Point, 1-Hour Legal Audit

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi returns! He walks you through five quick checks of your nonprofit’s documents, processes and status, to make sure you’re on the right side of the law. Gene is our legal contributor and managing attorney at NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.



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[00:01:46.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of pro so PAG nausea if I saw that you missed this week’s show. Eur 5.1 Our legal audit, jeanne Takagi returns, he walks you through the five quick checks of your nonprofits, documents, processes and status that make sure you’re on the right side of the law genius. Our legal contributor and managing attorney at neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law group on tony state too. Mayor Cooper, We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, what a pleasure to welcome as it always is, Jean Takagi back to nonprofit radio He is our legal contributor of course and managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in SAN Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com and he’s at G attack. You certainly should be following him if you’re not. Uh it’s your life. Welcome back jean,

[00:01:57.19] spk_1:
Great to be back. tony How are you?

[00:02:03.54] spk_0:
Always a pleasure you’re smiling, I love it, thank you. How is everything going in san Francisco wise now? Late june

[00:02:08.14] spk_1:
well we’ve been having really comfortable, even chilly weather that Mark Twain quote, I don’t think it was actually Mark Twain, but about the coldest day spending a summer in san Francisco is uh somewhat apt right now, but I’m not envying the high temperatures up in my home country of the pacific northwest

[00:02:43.84] spk_0:
Oregon. I was just talking to AMY sample ward earlier today and yesterday too. And uh 116 she said it’s broken. It’s broken since then, but uh astronomically high temperatures for for three days in a row. They had.

[00:02:49.04] spk_1:
Yeah, unbelievable.

[00:02:54.14] spk_0:
Yeah, I know. Okay. But you’re you’re much more comfortable in san Francisco good complaints taking any time off this summer.

[00:03:00.84] spk_1:
Um I’m planning to go back to Canada once the borders are open to visit my mom and family, but no word on the official opening date yet, we’re hoping by August one.

[00:03:12.79] spk_0:
Okay, So Canada is still restricting us residents?

[00:03:16.74] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s still kind of closed off right now, but we’ll see when it opens up again. Okay.

[00:03:23.37] spk_0:
Okay. Maybe I’ve been paying more attention to Australia than I have Canada. I know, I know Sydney is on a new lockdown. All right, Where in Canada? Where is your family in Canada?

[00:03:33.44] spk_1:
In Vancouver? So in that pacific northwest?

[00:03:50.44] spk_0:
Yes. Right. Right. All right. So you have this nifty one hour, 5. for us. A review of documents and a process and your status. Why don’t you why don’t you get us started? But this is not this is a legitimate audit. Uh Not a uh this is not an Arizona style audit from.

[00:04:05.84] spk_1:
Yeah. And this is an accountant. Side it. So this is kind of your own internal check of do these things and you’ll sleep better at night knowing that you’re either okay or you know what you need to fix. So,

[00:04:12.32] spk_0:
okay, if you need to fix some things, you might need someone like, like you to help.

[00:04:28.54] spk_1:
Could be or you might even be able to do it yourself. So, some of the fixes are easy. Some of the fixes might be a little bit more difficult, but um, you should know where you stand. I think that’s that’s the first thing and that’s why

[00:04:32.36] spk_0:
for sure. First step, no, no your status. Okay. So so kick us off. What’s your what’s your first idea?

[00:05:48.04] spk_1:
So I think the first thing you look at is your articles or certificate of incorporation. That was your formation document to start out with. And you want to see what the purpose of the organization is. So the articles govern every other there the like the one ring that rules all the rings showing my geeky side. That’s the one document that rules all the other documents and there’s no superseding what the articles say. So the articles say in the purpose statement, what you do and you’ve evolved past that. Maybe there’s a geographic limitation that says you only operate in new york in the articles and, you know, 50 years ago, that was true. But since then, you’re, you know, you’re operating in the tri state area or also in California, whatever that may be your articles, we’ll tell you what you can and can’t do and if they’re so limiting and you’ve grown past it, you’ve got to fix that. So amending the articles would be the next step. But within that one hour, it’ll probably just take you two minutes to read that purpose statement and say, oh, this is right online with our mission statement or it’s so broad that it covers anything we might do now, we’re in the future. Or you might get that note that says, ah, because the geographic limitation or our purpose isn’t so specific anymore. We’ve expanded beyond that and we need to fix it. So that that’s the first thing.

[00:06:06.24] spk_0:
Why does this matter? Well, suppose we have evolved past what our articles of incorporation say. That’s an ancient document. Yeah, it got us started. Uh, it’s outlived its usefulness. What’s the difference?

[00:07:00.84] spk_1:
Well, it’s that one document that rules all that that still is in effect. So even though it was drafted and adopted a long time ago, that is the principle document that governs what you can do. So, if you’re doing something that you’re not allowed to do in your articles, you could actually be subject to a lawsuit that says you are operating and diverting charitable assets that were intended for this purpose. Which was your article in the Articles of Incorporation and now using it for another purpose. So that’s, that’s the big thing to, to, to worry about in terms of operating outside of your articles. How much is this enforced? Probably not very much absent a complaint from somebody, but if you have an unhappy board member or an unhappy donor that takes a look at the articles or an unhappy thunder, um, that can get you into some trouble. And it probably shows you that the very, very most basic step in your due diligence on your homework about making sure your organization is run properly. You missed. Um, and that could be a sign of other problems. So you want to fix that if it’s if it’s a problem, don’t lose too much sleep over it, but identify it and fix it if necessary.

[00:07:40.64] spk_0:
Alright, so you mentioned funders, I assume this is such a basic document. And we uh, you lawyers, me former lawyer would call them your organic documents because they are your your origin. This and the next one we’re gonna talk about your bylaws. Um, so these are, these are commonly asked for by by, by foundations or other other institutional funders,

[00:08:02.44] spk_1:
I wouldn’t necessarily say commonly, but they’re usually publicly available. Um, and so that means that anybody could ask for it and you would have to give it to them or more often it’s just available on the Secretary of State’s website or something where you could just alright file, you

[00:08:08.64] spk_0:
want to, you want to avoid embarrassment there too, if you like that. Um, What about financial purposes? Would would banks if you were opening up some kind of credit relationship or something, might they ask for your articles of incorporation?

[00:09:37.54] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s not so uncommon for a bank to take a look to see your formation document. They’re not going to be sort of regulating whether you’re operating within your purpose or not. But one thing to think about is that if a donor gives to you, and let’s say your purpose was to feed those experiencing homelessness in new york city. Um, and then 10 years later, oh, by the way, you want to turn into an arts organization that supports the opera in Manhattan. Um, you could do that by amending your articles and if you do something drastic like that, if, if your mission has evolved over time, quite distinct from what you originally planned and you never bothered fixing your articles, that could be seen as a serious breach and diversion of charitable assets. So a donor that donated to you would have expected you to be in compliance with your articles and may have donated based on that reliance that you’re helping the homeless rather than supporting the opera. And that’s another thing you need to avoid. So if you were raising funds under the old purpose, the funds that you raised are still stuck on that purpose, you can’t deploy those assets for a brand new purpose that you never informed, um, the government agency that has your secretary, your articles of incorporation filed, um, you can’t divert it for other purposes.

[00:10:00.84] spk_0:
Okay. And that’s, that’s probably the Secretary of State. Uh, well, it varies, I shouldn’t say, probably it’s right. Secretary of State in some states, some states, it’s the Attorney General’s Office has a charities bureau, that might be the office in some places.

[00:10:24.24] spk_1:
Yeah, So the Secretary of State or division of corporations or something like that would be the ones that are looking at your articles on the formation and then amending it. So they’re kind of a ministerial body. The Attorney General’s usually are your charities regulator. So they would be the ones that say you’re not, you’re using charitable assets for the wrong purpose.

[00:10:33.94] spk_0:
Okay, right. Because you are incorporated as a not for profit corporation in your state. So that’s why Gene, that’s why you’re saying you folks are incorporated as that in that way. So that’s why it would be whatever agency that regulates the corporations in your state,

[00:10:48.24] spk_1:
Right? That’s that’s how you would fix the articles and why you want to check check, because anybody else may be able to pull those articles from that, that department,

[00:11:38.34] spk_0:
you’re, you’re a nonprofit corporation, yep. Under state law, it’s time for a break. Turn to Communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, The new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, usa Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten exposure. Do you want that kind of exposure Turn to has the relationships that can make it happen? Turn hyphen two dot c o. Your story is their mission. All right. So I mentioned, uh, the second check of our five is your bylaws remind folks what the purpose of the bylaws are and what are we looking for here?

[00:14:33.14] spk_1:
The bylaws are pretty much the instruction manual for how your organization is governed by governed. I mean, sort of board of directors, how they operate, how they meet, who are the officers of the organization? What authority do they have? What committees do they have? Um, and so really are more specific than the articles of incorporation, although they have to be consistent with the articles because again, the articles rule all. Um, but in an hour you won’t be able to review your whole bylaws. But what I suggest here in that one hour audit is check the provisions on how directors are selected. So there may be a regular election process where the board is called self perpetuating the board elects its own successors. But oftentimes organizations will forget to elect their directors. You know, when their term ends. That might say the term is two years or three years, um, and they just let directors keep serving until they want to resign. Well, that’s a problem. Um, so making sure that you are fulfilling the requirements uh, about director elections is really important. And sometimes directors are selected through other methods. They might be appointed or designated by another party or an individual. And that’s pretty common in private foundations, a little less common in public charities. But if you have those type of provision in your bylaws, you want to make sure that the person who is appointing or designating them is actually doing so. Uh, and you want to make sure that you’re sort of following all the provisions about, well, how elections are supposed to be run if they’re nominating processes or anything else, if you’re not complying with those, get rid of them. Um, and, and state exactly how you are electing directors. And and that’s that’s what you should really check, because if you enter into a big transaction, like a merger or you’re going to get into a big lease, oftentimes, the other party may want to see your bylaws. Um, and you are making representations in that contract of saying that we are in compliance with all of our organizational documents, uh, and by not checking whether you are or not, especially on the selection of directors, which is maybe the most important thing in your bylaws. Um, that’s that’s a huge red flag and they let the other party off the hook to be able to cancel that contract that you entered into and kick you out if it’s a lease or blow the merger up. So you want to make sure if you’re making those type of representations that you are compliant, and again, it’s just basic compliance. That’s one of the, you know, top five, I would say, to make sure your directors are regularly elected. So you want to make sure you cover your bases just to look like a good corporate citizen.

[00:15:03.34] spk_0:
And part of what you’ll find in the Bye laws is how to amend the bylaws. So if you find that you’re not complying with what the bylaws are. Either I get you either amend the bylaws to, to the way you are practicing now or conform your practice to what the bylaws says. But but if you need to amend the bylaws in the by laws, that should say how to amend them right with some majority or other vote of the board members, I presume.

[00:15:24.14] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. So if it’s really simple, it’ll say you can amend it by action of the board, but there are some complicated amendment provisions as well. So now we’re digging a little deeper. So if we do need to amend it, we’re going to go more than an hour on our overall legal review. Okay? Yeah. It is something you’re going to need to do and you want to check in that case. If you can get, if you have the resources to afford a lawyer, can get a pro bono lawyer, have them help you with the amendment to the bylaws. That’s a pretty major action.

[00:16:02.34] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Well, yeah, but we’re just that were the exploratory state. This is an audit. We’re not, we’re not doing the corrective actions were preparing. We’re preparing our auditor’s report. So we know we know we’re uh we we’re okay. Sleeping soundly. We’re not we don’t have any time bombs that we’re not aware of. The unknown unknowns. We don’t have any of those because we’re digging. Okay? But then if you need to go further beyond the the hour, you probably should read all your by laws to make sure that everything you’re doing is in compliance with what you say you’re supposed to be doing.

[00:16:17.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And, you know, even before you hire a lawyer, it would be a great idea for cost efficiency to figure out what you actually do that’s compliant with the bylaws and wherever you’re not compliant. So you can just make that list for the lawyer to say, oh, we haven’t been doing this. Can you help us fix it?

[00:16:48.14] spk_0:
Okay. Right. And then, Right. And there are gonna be provision of state law, right? That are going to govern some of the actions, depending on what they are. All right. That’s where we get too much in the weeds. Okay. That’s why you need. That’s why it’s good to have some help. Either paid or pro bono. So, you know, you’re complying with state law if you need to amend your bylaws.

[00:16:50.74] spk_1:
That’s right.

[00:16:58.84] spk_0:
Okay. Cool. I say I’m trainable. I’m training through the years. I’ve picked up some things from you. Um, All right. What’s our what’s our number three of five?

[00:17:25.34] spk_1:
So number three is because fundraising is so important, of course, for for non profit organizations, you want to make sure that you are helping your donors as well. And if you don’t have the right language and your donor receipt, a donor might not be able to take a charitable contribution deduction if audited and might get it reversed on them. So it’s really important to know what you need to put in a donation receipt.

[00:17:32.64] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and we know that, uh, for donations of $250 or more, that’s when, that’s when you have to issue the receipt.

[00:19:06.04] spk_1:
Yes. So that is for for donors, the donor might need just a check, you know, their, their return check for, or a copy of the check for a donation of $100 until they take a deduction for that may be enough. But if it is $250 or more, they need a special receipt coming back from the charity. Uh, and in that receipt, of course, it’s, you know, the name of the donor and the amount donated. And if there’s non cash stuff, a description of that stuff. But what’s key is there has to be a specific sentence in there that says something to the effect of, um, no goods or services were provided by the organization in return for this contribution. Um, or if there was something that was given back to the, to the donor in exchange, that wasn’t just very trivial. And what lawyers called the minimus jargon jail there, but uh, for something so so trivial and small, like a little sticker or something, you don’t have to value that. But if it’s something like a ticket to a concert, um, it’s kind of like the same type of receipt for those of you out there that attend a gala event and you get the chicken dinner that comes with your, you know, uh, Attendance and you spend $100 on a ticket, you get some sort of receipt that comes back to you saying Thank you for your $100 by the way, $25 with the value of your chicken dinner. So you can get a charitable contribution deduction of up to $75. So that’s the same type of thing that you would expect here.

[00:20:00.94] spk_0:
The other, the other place this plays out a lot is uh schools with sporting events. When people make a donation and maybe in exchange for their donation, they get a ticket package of some value. So you have to report that reveal that ticket value in your receipt or your acknowledgement letter. The other thing we didn’t mention is okay, Okay. Um also the date of gift, which which becomes important at the end of the year. Some, you know, some last minute december 30 december 31 gifts might not get processed until early january, but the gift was received On December 30 or 31st. So you want to make that? Make that clear?

[00:20:54.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Absolutely. And the I. R. S. Has a publication. If you if you google I. R. S. Sort of donor receipt, you’ll probably find the publication that tells you exactly what elements that you should include on a receipt. And when it’s triggered, we talked about $250 or more. There’s also something called the quid pro quo, which we talked about as well. The chicken dinner type contribution. So there’s certain elements that need to be put in depending upon that gift. And what else comes back to the donor in return. Just take a quick look at that but make sure your donor received has that language if nothing is returned back to the donor that it actually states that because in every legal case where the I. R. S. Tries to deny a deduction and the donor fights it, this could sometimes be for like a million bucks or two million or $10 million. The IRS always wins because the plain language of the statute says if you don’t have this language you don’t get a deduction and it’s hard to fight. Even if you think for moral reasons of course they gave this gift and they should get a deduction and it’s just one little sentence or phrase that’s missing. That’s ridiculous. But that’s the law.

[00:23:26.04] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two Mr cooper. If you were a fast listener last week, you would have listened on monday and you would have heard a nonprofit radio with an inappropriate Tony is take two. I made a inappropriate joke about drug addiction and boasted about privilege without bothering to acknowledge it. If you heard that show that had that version of tony state too, I’m sorry you had to listen to that. I regret that I recorded it. I thank the team at N 10 and Amy Sample Award for Pointing out the inappropriate Tony’s take 2 to me. They did it on monday by Tuesday morning. There was a new version of nonprofit radio with a different Tony is take two. I hope it never happens again. If it does, I hope you and your fellow listeners. Well, let me know that is tony state too. Now, back to your 5.1. Our legal audit. The publication you’re referring to is uh, 526. It’s, it’s written, it is very, really, very valuable. Um, It’s written for donors to tell them what they need to substantiate. But nonprofits can use it to make sure that they’re giving their donors what they need to make the substantiation. So, uh, you’re right. It’s online it’s publication 526 and it it goes through all the rules that your donors have to follow. So you can help them by reading that right by checking that out as well.

[00:23:27.70] spk_1:
And there’s a little brochure to. That’s a summary of the things that we talked about which is even shorter so at least use that.

[00:24:29.04] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah 5 26 is pretty long but it’s got a link herbal or linked table of contents to, so there’s there’s some help. The I. R. S. Is I mean the folks are trying to do their jobs. I always I always feel bad for the I. R. S. I don’t know that’s a tough job, beleaguered agencies and nobody wants to pay them or do what they nobody wants to be uh questioned by them. People’s hearts race when they get an envelope from them, you know? But overall I mean I think for as broad as their work is I credit them and I think I think the I. R. S. Is I think they’re doing a good job as best they can with being having the reputation that they have and all this being so politicized through the years and etcetera. So I’ve never been audited though too. So maybe if I had been privately audited maybe maybe my opinion of the I. R. S. Would be different. I don’t know. Have you ever been audited jean?

[00:25:10.94] spk_1:
I have been when I left a big firm and opened my own firm, my income went down that first year dramatically because I left the big firm with no clients. So that triggered an audit. What are you doing? Okay. I’ll just say yeah the audit room at the I. R. S. Office is a very very depressing place where people are married. They’re scared out of their lives. It was academically it was kind of interesting for me because I had no no problems with explaining it. Um But uh yeah I could see the nerves or feel the tension in that office for both the IRS agents and the taxpayers. Okay.

[00:25:26.64] spk_0:
I’m glad you you stayed out of you stayed out of prison. Right. No fine. Okay. Okay. Just settled out. You settled uh admitted no guilt, admitted no wrongdoing and settled. All right. What’s next in our in our five points?

[00:26:45.04] spk_1:
Um So this one is kind of a little bit of a no brainer but I think just make sure you you’re standing with the I. R. S. Still says you have five oh one C. Three status. So I think it’s a good idea to check because your donors will be checking. Especially your funders will be checking. And it’s so simple to do, literally, if you’ve done it a couple times, you can do it in under a minute. Um, So the, you know, if you google I. R. S. And T. E. O. S, which stands for tax exempt organizations search. So I. R. S. Taos you’ll get the website where you just enter the organization’s name or E. I. N. And it’ll spit out a link and you link to your organization’s name and it’ll tell you if you’re five oh one C three, non or not. And whether you’re a public charity, which may be an important distinction for some organizations, a public charity would be obviously not a private foundation and not subject to all those other rules, uh, that private foundations are subject to. But if you don’t get the numbers right, you can actually tip over into private foundation status. Um So it’s an important thing for some organizations to keep track of to make sure you’re still five or once you re exempt uh And a public charity in the I. R. S. Views and that’s updated nearly weekly. So um you have a good sense of where you actually stand and again take you a minute or two minutes to find that

[00:27:00.84] spk_0:
jean. Was that like three or four years ago when tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of organizations lost their exempt status because they hadn’t filed their their nine nineties for three consecutive years. I’m sure you remember that, What was that like 34 years ago or

[00:28:19.84] spk_1:
I think it was even longer, so I think it might have been Gosh, close to seven or eight years ago. Um and about 600,000 organizations, I believe tax tax exempt status. So it was a huge number um partly because smaller some organizations just weren’t running anymore. And the I. R. S. Doesn’t know when you stop running. So they’re just on the list of on their list and they were dropped off but many were actually running and just didn’t file their nine nineties and there was no rule before that said if you miss three in a row were automatically revoking your tax exempt status and it’s done electronically so it’s no agent discretion. It just happens. Um And so it’s hard to come back from that. It is possible but it’s still important for organizations to keep track if you miss 1990 or you’re late. Don’t worry too much about it. But if you have missed two High alert that you don’t even get an extension on your third missed one, even if you apply for one, you have to file it by the May 15 deadline if you’re a calendar filer. So pay attention to that.

[00:28:50.64] spk_0:
Okay important thank you. And you know this is an easy thing you can check in a couple minutes. Uh So it’s part of your one hour audit. So just make sure that something uh something didn’t happen even if you’re you’re sure you’re filing your nine nineties, you know for for two or three minutes. Check out uh I. R. S. Tax exempt organizations search

[00:29:12.94] spk_1:
just in case it was lost in the mail and you know the I. R. S. During the covid pandemic had I think 10,000,010 million pieces of paper filings in their warehouses that somebody had to process when they started coming back so they’re delayed still on that. So it annual filings could easily have been lost. Um So double check that website just to make sure you’re you’re okay.

[00:29:24.04] spk_0:
Yeah, be good to your organization please. All right. The last one when I love go ahead.

[00:30:40.44] spk_1:
So the same way you want to check with your I. R. S. Status, you probably want to check with your state status and that can be a couple agencies. So the corporate agency that we talked about, usually the secretary of state’s office, you want to make sure your corporation is in good standing, that they usually require some sort of annual or biannual filing that that comes to them. And then the attorney general or charities regulator might be a different agency. And they may also require charity registration on an annual basis. So making sure you file with each of those agencies is really important. And there’s usually an online database for most states where you can check to see what your most recent filing was and if you’re delinquent or if you’ve been suspended, um, or even uh, in in some cases, um, terminated because of lack of filing. So if if you find that, then, you know, there’s stuff to fix and you probably need to call a lawyer at that point, um, but just check it, if you check it annually, you’ll find it’s easy again, probably once you’ve done it once, and you write down a few notes about how to access that side, it’ll only take you a few minutes to just double check both the state, usually Secretary of State, for your corporation, um status and the Attorney General, or charities regulator for your charities registration status.

[00:31:11.94] spk_0:
You want to make sure that your uh, in compliance not and for the, for the ladder of that in compliance, not only in your state, but now I’m going beyond your one hour. But, uh, that’s okay. We’ll go a little deeper. You need to be in compliance with solicitation regulations in all the states where you are soliciting donations now, I just need a car, not just you and me,

[00:31:25.34] spk_1:
and they need to call somebody like you, if that’s the case. So if they know their fundraising in multiple states are using, um, people or companies to help them fundraise in other states, they need to call someone like you and say, hey, what do we need to do to make sure that we’re in compliance with that. Other states. Rules were not incorporated there, but we’re doing business or fundraising there. What do we need to do?

[00:32:53.24] spk_0:
Right. Thank you. It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software is designed for big companies and has that enterprise level price tag tisk, tisk. If you’re using those, send in blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out sending blue and get a free month. Hit the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your 5.1. Our legal audit for for the I’m going backwards a little bit because, you know, your host is lackluster. I’m sorry. Um if we find out that we’re on a step forward, if we’re not, if we have lost our IRS 501 C3 status for some reason, what would you recommend doing?

[00:34:24.84] spk_1:
So find out the reason first of all. So if it was for failing to file 3990s in a row that’s probably the most common reason for getting your exemption revoked. Um Find out if that was actually true. Did you actually miss those filings? Did an accountant help you with them? Did some volunteer do that find out what the status is? Uh and then contact the I. R. S. To ensure that that was the actual reason and if you have filed the 19 nineties and the IRS has somehow lost it you should tell that to them. Um See if you have a like a return receipt which I always recommend if you haven’t electronically filed, make sure you have some evidence that actually got sent uh to the I. R. S. Office because that will help you. And if they had made the mistake or they lost the finding that will help them reverse the process. But if it is actually the case where you fail to file um have those filings ready to go. Some hire an accountant or somebody who can help you prepare those files, have them ready to go. And there is a reinstatement process where you actually have to Fill out the form 1023 which is the exemption application that a start up would have to file. But you’re doing it for reinstating your tax exempt status. Um So there is a process the I. R. S. Has tried to make it easier for some organizations where they just kind of missed filings but it hasn’t been like We’ve been out of compliance for 20 years,

[00:34:26.73] spk_0:
we’ve never filed. Yeah

[00:34:49.44] spk_1:
so go through that process if you can get a lawyer or an accountant to help you um, please do. So it’s while they try to make it as easy as possible. It’s still kind of complicated and there are some nuances that can help you and the sum that can hurt you. So that’s going to take a little bit longer to fix if you have to fix it. But it is for the most part fixable.

[00:34:54.44] spk_0:
If we’re going to go beyond our one hour, 55 point legal audit, what would, where would we spend more time?

[00:36:44.53] spk_1:
So there are some common areas of concern for nonprofits. I would say one of the big ones is getting your independent contractor employee distinction. Right? So knowing what the difference is, because I would say that a lot of organizations when they get into trouble, they get into trouble on that point. And on that point, volunteer borrowing members could actually be held personally liable for non payment of payroll taxes. And by that, I mean, if you determine that a worker is an independent contractor, but legally they should have been an employee, let’s say they’re working 40 hours a week and they don’t work for anyone else, and they’re doing the job that, you know, an executive director does for an organization. But you go, I don’t want to pay the payroll taxes because we can’t afford it. So we’re just going to call you an independent contractor, that’s not going to be consistent with the definition that the I. R. S. Views and the state may have their own definitions as well. Um, but the employer for an employee has to pay their portion of the payroll tax. If the payroll tax didn’t get paid, uh, then there may be a claim against the organization. And then in enforcing that, they may say this was the board’s fault, charitable assets should not be used to pay for this type of penalty because this was sort of gross negligence on this part. So board members could be out of pocket to pay for those payroll taxes if they haven’t been paid. So because withholding and paying payroll taxes, the employer shares is the employer’s duty. So be careful of that one distinction I would say is my next thing, that’s going to take longer, but it would be the next thing on my audit list. Okay.

[00:37:17.93] spk_0:
Yeah. Common misconception that if we, if we call them a contractor and we send them a 1099, then that’s what they are. And, and there’s a whole, you and I have done shows on this, there’s a whole test of, you know, do they work for the people whose equipment do they use, Who sets the hours, who sets the location of the work, Who sets the timing of the work? It’s the whole list of fact multi factor test. Uh, So it’s not just, you know, you call it a, you call them an independent contractor because you’re saving on employment taxes and uh and unemployment and and benefits that are required. It’s not it’s not that simple. So,

[00:37:32.43] spk_1:
okay, not only the I. R. S. Could be involved, but the person the worker who got misclassified could actually go after you later

[00:37:40.89] spk_0:
or your state or your state Department of Labor.

[00:38:13.52] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. And they may have a slightly different definition of independent contractors and employees. And California is kind of this big example because they’re there sort of leading the way if you will in terms of employment rights. Um, and so they have made a much more difficult distinction, making it very hard for nonprofits to claim that they have independent contractors if they occupy the type of job that an employee would occupy. So even if it was for a limited duration of time, that may not matter anymore that they were there for three months only, but if they were an administrative assistant or an executive director, they may need to be called a temporary or part time employee and not an independent contractor anymore. So it’s gotten much, much tougher on the state level.

[00:38:40.12] spk_0:
What’s next? What in your experience, what do you see as another common problem?

[00:40:23.81] spk_1:
So not necessarily a problem. But for a way for the boards to sort of quickly get policies in place to make sure that they’re doing their job in terms of providing oversight since they’re not there every day. And you know, maybe they’re meeting once a month or once every other month. Um uh and maybe for just a couple hours. So there’s only so much that they can do. But what they can do is create some policies or have policies created that they can approve that governed the organization. And these policies, some of them are referenced in the form 9 90. And the 9 90 asks you the I. R. S. Is asking you through the 9 90 do you have these policies and if you say no, Well it used to be kind of normal awhile ago, you know, more than 10 years ago for a lot of organizations to say no, but since they started asking these questions, I think in 2000 eight maybe. Um the more often you put no the more an outlier you become because most organizations have seen these questions and said, oh if we keep saying no to this, is this going to trigger an audit risk? And the answer is probably yes. So saying yes to. We have these policies make sense. And that would be a document retention and destruction whistle blower. The Board Level Review of the Form 9 90. Um, those are really common ones that that you can incorporate really quickly. I would also add expense reimbursements. Who has signing authority. Can anybody in your organization signed a contract or sign a check or only the executive director? What if they’re not around? So just having policies rather than the board going, you guys figure it out. Having a policy in place is really important for a board to do gift acceptance, another one.

[00:41:03.31] spk_0:
Gift acceptance. Yeah, right. Uh, there’s another angle to this too, which is the, uh, the charity rating agencies, um, Charity Navigator. Uh, well, uh, the old guidestar now it’s merged and it’s Candid merged with the Foundation Center Candid. But those rating agencies also ask ask about the standard policies like whistleblower document retention, etcetera. Yeah, it’s a proxy conflict, conflict of interest, border conflict of interest, another another common commonly required policy.

[00:41:11.35] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I’m sorry, I missed that one because I think that’s the most important, one of all of them, outside of the articles and bylaws that I

[00:41:28.31] spk_0:
got, I got Eugene. All right, No problem. So, yeah. So aside from the I. R. S asking charity rating agencies ask also for these basic policies. All

[00:41:41.71] spk_1:
right. And it’s a proxy for them to say is this organization well governed. Does it have a good board of directors in place? And if you keep answering no, we don’t have these policies, then they’re going to assume that you’re not very well covered. Yeah,

[00:42:03.20] spk_0:
it’s like someone reading your bylaws or your articles of incorporation. You know, somebody might get a wild hair and decided to go read your articles of incorporation and then see that they are out of date. Or you might, you know, you might have your bylaws disclosed on your website. But some disgruntled person or just even some uh, neutral person might see that, you know, you don’t, you don’t conduct yourself the way your documents that you’re supposed to, you know, it’s embarrassing at the at the best. It’s embarrassing.

[00:42:14.50] spk_1:
Yeah. And for for older folks like me, tony when somebody has in their bylaws like you can deliver notice by telegraph. Not a great sign for some of the younger funders may be considering your organization.

[00:42:35.90] spk_0:
All right. All right. Or we can even update it and make it still bad facts. Notice noticed by facts. Facsimile.

[00:42:38.83] spk_1:
I still have a hotmail account so I’m okay with facts. All

[00:42:43.89] spk_0:
right. But you don’t use your fat. You don’t have a fax machine, do you?

[00:42:46.57] spk_1:
I still do

[00:42:47.63] spk_0:
you do you get any traffic on it?

[00:42:50.20] spk_1:
Um I I use effects as as my primary. So I have a paper printing facts as a backup. But exit the primary.

[00:43:09.10] spk_0:
Remember if ax you used to send people would send documents to the phone number right at like the phone number at the fax dot com. So that they would print on your machine. Wasn’t that isn’t how it works.

[00:43:17.90] spk_1:
So this effects is um they sent a fax to my fax machine. But I have my fax machine turned off and it sends me an email of what the facts would look like.

[00:43:30.10] spk_0:
Okay. Okay, well, that’s OK. So I’m starting. But there there was a there was in fact used to, somebody could send an email to your fax machine through the phone number at fox dot com and it would print on your machine.

[00:43:34.10] spk_1:
Yeah, I think that’s right. But

[00:43:35.44] spk_0:
You’ve updated your, you updated sometime around 1997, I guess

[00:43:40.32] spk_1:
one. Some level of

[00:43:41.57] spk_0:
you get an email now. Congratulations. You’re getting emails. All right. Uh,

[00:43:46.70] spk_1:
my anything don’t even answer emails now. It has to be text not responding.

[00:43:57.30] spk_0:
Right. Another year. It’ll just be if it’s not a Tiktok then forget about it. They don’t know you. All right. We’re gonna leave it there, jean. So we talked about our five points. You’re talking about going a little further. If you’re if you if you want the suma cum laude of legal audits, you can go a couple of steps further. Thank you very much. Gene

[00:44:12.79] spk_1:
great to be with you Tony. Thank you.

[00:44:30.29] spk_0:
My pleasure. Thank you, Jeanne Takagi Neo is the firm, the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in SAn Francisco subscribe to this blog, nonprofit law blog dot com. It is wildly popular and jean is at g attack. Thanks again jean.

[00:44:32.19] spk_1:
Thanks tony

[00:45:27.59] spk_0:
next week. More from 21. NTC, the nonprofit technology conference. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chabon’s Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for November 9, 2018: Buy-In Bitches & Process Blocking Your Progress?

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My Guests:

Carie Lewis Carlson & Lara Koch: Buy-In Bitches
I gave that title to Carie Lewis Carlson and Lara Koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you; to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it—and they don’t. They’re savvy, they’re straightforward and they shared tons of strategies. They’re bitchin’. Carie is now with United Way and Lara is at Smithsonian Institutions. (Recorded at #18NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference.)



Stefanie Zasyatkina: Process Blocking Your Progress?
Stefanie Zasyatkina wants you to pay attention to your org’s workflow. Identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission. She’s with InReach Solutions. (Also recorded at #18NTC.)






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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of neff row calc no, sis, if you wet me down with the idea that you missed today’s show buy-in bitches. I gave that title to carry louis carlson and larry koch as they explained how to get your boss to listen to you to get your boss’s buy-in when you get it and they don’t, they’re savvy, they’re straightforward and they shared tons of strategies. They’re bitchen carriers from clc consulting on larra is at smithsonian institution’s that was recorded in eighteen ntc the non-profit technology conference and process blocking your progress stephanie’s as yak dahna wants you to pay attention to your org’s workflow identifying and overcoming pain points and inefficiencies will put your methods in line with your mission she’s with in reach solutions that’s also recorded at eighteen and tc no time for tony’s take two today these combos was so good i let them run long responded by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p weather. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com bye tell us attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream durney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine here are carry louis carlson and larry koch. Welcome to twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc non-profit technology conference coming to you from the convention center in new orleans, louisiana. All of our ntcdinosaur views are sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guests are carry. Louis carlson carlsen, my voice cracked on calls she’s, the owner of clc consultant and larry koch, associate director of online fund-raising smithsonian institution welcome, ladies. Hi, tony. Are you have you both i’m doing well. Thank you for asking. Thanks for having people. Have you done your session already have mastered outside it’s. All fun from here on out. Exactly. More alcohol on your session topic is real talk how i got my leadership team. So listen to me. All right? Buy-in? Yes. Okay. Okay. From your session description you had a quote. I get it. It’s, my boss. That doesn’t exactly if that’s you talking. This session is for you. Okay. Uh, larry let’s, start with you. Why do we need this topic? This copy came out of on in ten. An ntc that carrie and i were at two years ago. The one in san jose. There was a session on the last day that turned into basically a big therapy session about the work we do and how hard it is. And the things that no one really talks about. Remember our non-profit radio was that sixteen? I don’t unfortunately interesting that you don’t remember the topic. I don’t remember what came out of it. What the tangent was exactly that took over the over the room. And there was one quote, and i wish i knew who to attribute to from that session that where someone said culture, each strategy for breakfast and and it was really stuck with us and this came out over and over about the things that we struggle with and, you know, executive buy-in is something that comes up in almost every session you’re in, but it’s it’s a mystery it’s feels like, oh, just get the executive by and everything would be okay, but how? You know, how is it possible? And i feel like cary and i are living proof that it is possible. It’s a lot of hard work and it’s, you know, on there are strategies that we’ve both employed to make things happen, okay? Carrie, you want to add something to the introductory remarks? Sure, s o like blair said, i mean, every single time we speaking unconference together how to get your boss tio let you do the things you want to do, you’ve covered this topic multiple times. Yeah, yeah, even if the session doesn’t start out with that it and it ends there. Yeah, yeah, and it’s and, you know, most people are sitting in there, they’re listening all these great ideas, they can’t wait to go back and implement them, but they’ve got to get the okay, the budget, the time, whatever it is, and they don’t know how to do it. And so that’s. Why? We wanted to talk about this and like larry said it’s, something that people don’t want to talk about because it could sound like complaining or you know, but we tried to give people actual strategies that we have used to be able to get the buy-in to do a lot of the great things we’ve been able to do together. Okay, so you ladies are the buy-in maven. We try buy-in buy-in matrons know not think of a good alliteration to go with buy-in buy-in your brother’s bad? Okay, i feel like we could use a word, but i’m not sure we can say it on neo-sage radio buy-in okay, that’s perfect that’s what? Love it so and ten nineteen we’ll be back with the hashtag for the session. Yeah, tony, you are setting us up. Please do your coming back. We’re having back-up fund-raising no radio. Okay, good thinking. Okay, okay. We got tactics. Got strategies we get. All right. So the problem is, you know, way feel so passionately about something, but we cannot. We just can’t convince the boss. Is that it? Is it always the sea level? Or it might even just be our immediate? Totally because, you know, they’re getting that pressure shevawn the executives, you know, they’re the ones often in more direct contact with them. And so when you bring an idea to them their thought goes there, having the same thought is i’m going to have to tell my boss how to accomplish this, how to get this done and often, you know that immediate negativity or that immediate reactive no. First here. And people have trouble asking for what they need is just it’s so hard to overcome that initial that initial. No, you no. You hardly even heard anything i heard even made my case yet and it’s already, you know, and then try to overcome that it’s very, very hard and because because non-profits tend to be, you know, such a hierarchy and there’s so much emotion and passion in the work we dio what many people here that know and they back off, they’re done. Carrie, you’re making a point that i threw up. Well, i also want to say, like, one of the things that i was able to show was that i was able to get that full on buy-in relationship that trust all of that with my immediate boss when i was at hsus and he was really a advocate and, you know, backed me up on a lot of my ideas that were able to sell to the executives, which were much harder, and i admitted this in session. I never fully got that buy-in and goal agreement and all those things with our executive suite in the eleven years i was there, it was just there there different priorities different, you know, generation’s, i was going to say that, but yeah, no, it’s true, i think generations way generational shifts in the workplace non-profits are so unprepared for this and and it’s, and it is hurting them now because they don’t know, like our generation doesn’t know how to relate to our sea level executives who have been there for twenty years, and they have different different way of looking at things different priorities, and it causes this this clash. Okay? All right. Let’s, let’s get into some of our tactics. Great tactics, strategies we could use those interchangeably or, you know, i think so. Yeah, i think so. Yeah. Larry let’s start where the number one thing. And, you know, this came up on every slide that we did was getting in being relentless about being in people’s faces and having a stick basically, every time you’re in. A meeting you have, you repeating the same stats and you’re asking the same things over and over only consistency in your own messenger. Yes, exactly. And i’m not giving up right when you hear? No, that was one thing. I think that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. It’s, like my boss says, no, i’m not going to challenge them. Oh, but you should because you have good ideas and you need to advocate for them and you are the ones in the trenches, you’re the ones doing the work, you’re the ones in, you know, conferences like this, you’re seeing what your what your colleagues are doing in the space and you want to apply those things and that no, without a no but or no end and i think that’s where you know, karen, i got the idea of basically going in really prepared, you know, anticipating questions and push back into anticipating the no on dh coming up of strategies. Teo say here’s, how i hear we’re going to do it, here’s, what we’re going to do if we fail here is going to do if we’re going to succeed, and then if you hear that no, is it? You know? Okay. Can i just try it once and we see how it goes. You know, can we test it? Because the data will out. I told the group like, i love one test fail. I want to be wrong because then i can let it go. I can say okay, i thought it would work it didn’t. I’m going to let it go and that’s. Why? You know, but at least we got to try it’s. Time for a break. Pursuing their e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. Have you got in this thing yet? For going to sake? Get it, get it. They take all the secrets from the fastest growing startups that, you know, we can all name off the top of our heads, and they apply those lessons methods to your non-profit it’s free it’s on the listener landing page. You know where the listener landing pages you don’t need me to tell you, but i will. It’s a tony dot m a slash pursuant with a capital p for please. And i suppose that capital p could also be for pursuing now back to carry on. Marah. Then how do you feel with your? With respect to your relationship with your boss? If you advocated for something and it failed. Oh, i can talk about that. Please. This happens a lot and it’s so important to be comfortable with it and accepting and saying that this it’s fine, that it failed, but here’s what we learned and we’ll do this differently next time. Last giving tuesday, right before i left. But i want to focus on your relationship with your boss, right? You pushed and let’s say there was an initial no. And then taking your advice, you challenged it. You gotta buy in for a test. It failed. But you were the advocate for the you would advocate for the failure. Yeah. How does that? How do you feel about the impingement on your relationship with your boss? How do you deal with your boss after that that’s. What i want to get? Well, it depends like that that’s kind of where the early work of developing the relationship and the trust and all of that with your boss and your executives or whoever the decision maker is is so important because because i had a good relationship with my boss and i had spent years on goal agreement and trust and brainstorming and all of these these things that connected us, he is of the mindset of okay, well, here are all the great ideas you’ve had an executed one that didn’t work it’s bound to happen, and i think that that over simplifies it, but that that homework of developing that relationship with your boss ahead of time you’re belong. Yes, and building on those small, easy winds, if that’s what you need to lay that groundwork, but and taking ownership of of of your failures. You know, carrie has a great example. If he was going mention about giving tuesday where she was convinced something was going to work, they put into practice, it did fail and carrie took ownership. She said, i thought this would work. It didn’t. Here’s what we learned here instead of getting defensive and e-giving no it’s ok, s o i wonder what exactly this is your this is your thing. I don’t need permission. Right? White-collar let’s, leave it there. All right, all right. Move on. Yeah. So i came up with the idea of giving away little portable dog bowls. If you got your donation in ahead of time for giving tuesday, we found from years past that that some people do want to get their gifts in early, which i find strange, but, you know, they have their reasons. And the data showed that s o i said, where were you with the dog boat? What kind of organization wear dog bowls with the humane society? Yeah, so naturally, i was like this. I was really excited about it. Well, they gave way, maybe a hundred of them there are still three thousand of them and someone’s cubine hsus and i, you know, i was like, guys, i thought this was gonna work and it didn’t don’t do it next year, right? And they’re not going to, but we did it. And wait that’s not the reason you’re no longer my hope. Not now. E-giving tuesday debacle. No, but i know those bulls are still sit here. Someone and and we were from the organization. Yeah, yeah. Get uco somehow used, you know? And we were both honest in our session that, you know, we had those winds. We had those failures, but in the end both of us did leave we both worked at the humane society together, both of us did leave because in the end ah, you know, we made some progress, but, you know, it wasn’t enough, and those battles with our executives did wear us down eventually. And the first question that somebody asked at the end of this session was, how do you deal with all of this work and all of this emotional toll that this obviously takes on someone to be constantly fighting for your ideas in your staff and all of that likelier said, we weigh both ended up leaving for this reason because you’ve got to know when you can’t do anymore, right? You know, and that’s the thing again, we’re all here for because is we’re all here because we’re passionate people, you know, our jobs are so emotional full of so much emotional labor, which i think makes work non-profit work really interesting on dh, you know that you care, right? And that is, you know, like i said, that’s, where all of our sessions, especially when we present together, tend to end up because, you know, we’re proud of what we’ve accomplished, we’ve had some incredible winds, some incredible successes, but you know that work is constant and because non-profit online and digital marketing and fund-raising changes every single day, it is not something like a digital direct mail where it’s pretty consistent, it’s pretty, you know, the nothing really changes their facebook works one day based on what’s going on right now, who knows? What’s gonna happen for facebook tomorrow, platforms, you change. All right? Yeah. Let’s, go into more more strategies. You got you got one. Carrie. Well, i touched on this, but one of the biggest kind of strategies for me was getting that visibility. I was relentless about getting into staff meetings and executive meetings and being that person that they they recognize so that when i came knocking on the door asking for something they were like, well, you know, carrie has good ideas, and she is smart and well respected or whatever, so that, you know, i told the audience, like, if you’re one of those people that wants to work from home four days a week, you’re gonna have trouble selling your ideas because you’ve got to be around and the executives need teo. No, you and with that comes trust and build a repertoire and all of that’s interesting my last conversation with just about virtual employees and having a virtual organization. So you feel like in this realm, virtual employees are at a disadvantage if they are in leadership roles where they’re they’re selling ideas and managing staff and look like i flexibility. It was the number one reason why i stayed so long where i wass i’m a mom. I want to be able to do things on my own time. But if if i was not there pushing for what i wanted advocating for my staff, them knowing who i was because that’s, how our management was it was very management by walking around like you, you know, you have teo be seen there? Yeah was important. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s nothing where that generational shift really comes into play. Maybe we’ll all be remote employees, you know, fifteen years from now. But right now, in the non-profit space, where again, that hyre kiis so deeply grooved in, you know, it’s being visible. And you know the point that the two women were just in the last interview majors it really is depends on organizational culture, even even that’s what this is all about that even trump’s age, you know, it’s, the organization has a culture that empowers virtual employees, then then they may not have sure just be thinking about is that you’re talking about carrie exactly. You’re right. Its organizational culture. Yeah, ok, let’s, get more more strategies for challenging your boss. Well, you suggested maybe it’s a no end? No, but we could test right that’s that covers sort of challenge of overcoming the no, whether the tactics you should talk about data because you’re the data queen. Yeah, i mean, it all goes back to data and i think a point, you know, having that data having those stats at the tip of your tongue, you know, stats that you’re repeating all the time and, you know, getting execs love numbers very often, they don’t love the same numbers that we love, you know, they’re very focused on different numbers. So a it’s it’s focused on using numbers that mean something to them? Of course, a lot of those our budget numbers and revenue and opportunity costs, carrie is done a lot of work where you know for redesigning the website, for example, when we were able to work with the vendor that’s redesigning that website and identify this is the money we’re leaving on the table right now. We’re having an old website, right? That that those stats make sense to our executives, even if hannity metrics which breaks both mining, carries hard, defend any social metrics. But if you can leave those in with the data that also matters relevant is relevant. Exactly. You know, it is that you trained them over. They will care about that spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine. You know you have twelve thousand followers? No. Okay, so we have that in exactly yes. Yes. You know, we, um example that leads them. Give them some of what they want to get, like, capture their damn war. Of what? The great. Because you know what? You’re the you’re the data expert in the organization. You know what? What? What’s germaine? Yes. So give him a little of what they want. More of what they need. And percentages yes. And percentage, you know exactly. You know, because, for example, smithsonian redesigned their website last year and i was able to get a donation button on the website, which is a big win in the first six weeks of that donation, but and be on the sight we saw six thousand percent increase in donations those Numbers were super tiny, but 6 thousand percent mentioned casually to my boss in the hallway made me look like a superstar, and then they could repeat that elsewhere. But it’s it’s being, you know, unexamined well, one of our favorite examples was what we consider our magnum opus at the main society was our first day of giving on day of giving came as a directive and says, you know, we see university’s doing days of giving everywhere just just do on onda has been restricted. We love understated fund-raising but we knew a day of giving out of nowhere in the middle of what is our biggest low month around springbox arch was going to be a hard sell. We knew we had a restricted program that, you know, touched on all the things that that our constituents labbate hsus being pet speak people’s relationship with their pets, helping people in underserved communities get vet care for their pets we put together a power point that laid everything out from start to finish, including a mixture of vanity metrics and actual mex tricks on dh things like here’s what we do if we fail here’s what we do if we succeed, we went in armed to the teeth, saying, ok, we’ll do this. This is how we’re going to do it, and we did, and we were end. Oh, and also that we need to go dark in everything else we’re doing so we can launch this huge campaign just mere months after our year and fund-raising campaign and, you know, we went in like an army, and we were able to get that message through because, yes, it was the bitches and and we did it, we did it, and it was a huge success, but half a million dollars yes, and repeating that in other ways, no, through other campaigns has allowed us to just, you know, go in almost with an impenetrable armor two and confidence evidence that’s a tough one for a lot of people talk about it more. Well, i think because people are afraid of being told no or that’s a bad idea, or they’re just afraid of the rejection or eleanor failing on dh if you don’t have that culture of innovation and trust and all of that, that could be really intimidating. But i think after a while we start to gain gain our confidence after we’ve we have good ideas and we implement them and they work and we want to do more s o that but i think that’s a hard one for for a lot of people that have that confidence to go in and and say, we’re going to do this or to your boss, no that’s a terrible idea, which yeah, and i had we had six seven people come up to us after and tell their own individual stories of their immovable ceos, you know? And and they, you know, they thanked us for what we talked about, but still you could see the fear in their eyes, you could and and that breaks my heart because again, these are people who want we’re doing mission based work, and we know how we can do it better because we are doing it every single day. That’s the confidence you need to go in with you embrace that? Yeah. And say we were going to do this like when when i decided that it was time to pick up the website, redesign it. Hsus i went to my boss and i said, i’m going to do this this year. I know the money’s there. We’re going to make this happen and i need an outside project manager. I didn’t go in and say, hey, i’d really like to redesign the website. What do you think? You know? And and that also helped him because it’s like i’m not going teo, that was another one of our tactics going with a solution, not just a problem, and that takes a lot of the weight and a lot of the monkey off the off your boss’s back and that builds trust too, because it’s like they’ve got this, you brought me a problem. Yeah, yeah, and my boss used to always say that to me come to me with a solution, not a problem, and then that really also developed that that relationship of trust because he knew that i would handle things. Yeah, see elsie working with smithsonian, we’re not we’re just together. Not not yet, i will say yet. You know, hopefully in the future, but, you know, i would love that because she’s a dynamo. But, you know, we we the bond that we formed working together, allowed us to kind of build that confidence off of one another. You know, we both have different strengths. Um, and, you know, we were able to move mountains at a place that is like i said, it’s old school, it’s, old school. Now it sounds like you suffered together, that there’s, this there’s, this recognized social science concept. I learned it as a brotherhood of suffering, but it could equally apply as assistant of suffering. Prison is, and i don’t mean to analogize hsus prison, but prison is an example. I’ll take it, okay. I have something i want to chat with you. Cause i know somebody very senior there. Oh, so present. Imagine what you’re suffering together. You know that the common suffering day in, day out creates a bond. Yeah, sounds like that. Well, that was another one of our tactics was yes, was creating, like, oh, zoho back-up napor greedy while creating a like a mini culture within our department of trust and all of the things that we wish we had as a larger organization, we build them within the department and you do create this bond and work within your microcosm? Yes. And, you know, manage down, you know, manage, manage up, but also manage down like you wish you were being managed down upon encourage people to come to ideas, let them know it’s okay to fail, let them know that you know you that, you know, there they’re they’re doing different work than we are as their managers. So they’re seeing things that we’re not seeing like something i tell my team now with the smithsonian is, you know, if i want you to come to me and say, if you you know, if if i didn’t if i my plate was clear, this is what? I will be focusing on because i know this one don’t you wish one of our executives would have ever said anything like that tests because i i would give him i would roll out the scroll, it would roll down the hallway carpet exactly, and but i want to hear that because, you know, i’m spending so many plates all the time trying, teo, you know, be in this middle management role, like i am, and i want to be able teo, that my team feels empowered to do that, and i think right now, there are still ceilings that prevent that on dh the, you know non-profits again have, you know, way san tend to respect the ceo’s as as being, you know, and that sea level, as you know, the end all be all right, and they’re not, you know, we were able to do in our world, and i say that this is especially true for non-profit marketing and fund-raising is that, you know, it’s, if you’re not living it, you’re not truly understanding it and until executive see that and give you that leeway, and you’re negotiating with them constantly about what you’re doing what? You know, you can dio on lee. Then do you even start to inch forward? Another thing i did while i was in a leader shit roll at hsus. It sounds kind of silly, but i gave each one of my employees are birthday off and that’s really cool. They get teo, have an extra day off and whatnot. But what it’s really about is showing that i trust them enough to take a day off, that they’re still going to get their work done. And that’s the kind of like an example of the kind of thing that was in our control. You would never get your birthday off. I think as an overall level there that’s just it’s a culture of lika latto non-profits work always on the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But our employees knew that we trusted them enough that they could take a day off. And i was adamant. And the question that came at the end about how do you deal with all of this? The emotional labor that goes into it. It’s about creating that balance, being relentless about self care and work. Life balance like it is achievable. A lot of times we do it to ourselves because we care so much, but creating boundaries with your your team, your executives, is that that’s how you have teo that’s, what you have to dio in order to keep doing all this work also this idea, please hold your upleaf don’t lose that thought this idea of doing as much as you can within your within what you do have within your purpose exactly as much as you can for the people you do have authority over medicating for your staff. That’s exactly what i was going to say is is being relentless and going back to that repetition, you know, a badge of honor that i wear is always in a in a meeting recently with a strategic planning meeting with a lot of different people, of course organization, many of them hyre level for me. And at one point, someone stopped me and said, we know how you feel about email collection, larry and i was like, great, i’m glad you do, it’s, because i’ve been saying it nonstop. So even if you’re annoyed with me for saying it every time you’re finally listening to me because you know, what’s not happening at the smithsonian emails let’s talk about that, you know, and luckily, i feel like carrie and i are good with people, so we tend to not come off as harsh. We tend to come off maura’s just assertive versus aggressive, but, you know, i i’ve never i’ve had to learn that assertiveness in my in my work-life because it didn’t come naturally to me, it’s something that i’ve learned, and once i saw the progress i was able to make by getting in people’s faces being super, you know, straight and blunt and repetitious and, you know, making that eye contact with them, you know, it’s a skill that i’ve i’ve tried to learn i’ve tried to give to my team a cz well, because, you know, we’re all in these cruise ships on we’re trying to make these terms all the time, and things move very, very, very slowly trying to avoid thinking yes, brothers, ice parents trying to avoid a bow shot, okay, we’re gonna leave it there. You threw a terrific, great thanks. Provenance. I love your energy was a field but i feel the bond between yes buy-in riches you hear in here. First, they are carry louis carlson, owner of clc consulting on larra koch, associate director online fund-raising at smithsonian institution. We are non-profit rate we are non-profit radio covering eighteen ntc on this interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits ladies, thank you so much. You know, it was my pleasure to thank you very much for being with our coverage. We need to take a break when you see piela do you need help with your nine, ninety or your brooks? Are you brooks brooks? I can’t believe i did that again, like last week or your books properly managed. Have you got books? Uh, this time, i wouldn’t even just make sure you’ve got brooks. Have you got them? Do you have good financial oversight in place? This is the stuff that where you can help you with you. Want to talk to the partner? You eat much doom. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust him. He’ll tell you whether they can help. Wagner. Cps dot com now, time for process. Blocking your progress. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighty, ninety si non-profit technology conference. Coming to you from new orleans, this interview is sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits my guest is stephanie dahna she is director of in reach solutions, and her workshop topic is when process blocks progress workflow, efficiency for non-profits stephanie, welcome to the show. Thank you, penny. What was the need for this? This this topic? Why do we have to talk about this wire? Workflows important. So we are a small agency for case management system, burn non-profits we work in child welfare, and what we do a lot is implement the software with agency, right? A lot of these agencies do they struggle with understanding what they do it’s like you do it on a regular basis, but you don’t know, so i know how to communicate it. So when you’re putting it into ah digital format into a software, we actually have to know what you’re doing in order to get the results that you’re looking for out in reports and things like that. Okay, right? And so if they can’t communicate it clearly it’s hard to know where their pain points are where to help them. And some people just aren’t prepared for that, especially the small agencies. They don’t have the staff on hand that have done kind of analysis of what their current processes are. Alright, so what? What do we do? We need to help non-profits do better than what they need to better understand what their processes are. They dio yeah, yeah, absolutely definitely want to know how, what? There be able to communicate where they’re at to understand where they want teo processes there. Workflow there we were talking about the stuff they do day today. Yes, described it. Okay, uh, how do we help him do this? How do we help them? Hyre? What are we looking first for? The pain points, or we’re just trying to understand what the flows are first. Yeah. Trying to understand what the flows are. The pain points often come out. Burn that? Yeah, absolutely. In that discussion. Okay, so are we mapping? The process is how do we how do we identify what are workflows are? Yes. So it would be lovely, teo. Question. Like time. Like a little boy. Something radio. Make sure do i understand what you’re saying? Yes. Uh, yeah. I mean, do you do? We is that we do. We we mapped the workflows absolutely, yeah. And a lot of that comes out through a discussion of, like, what do you do? You it’s? Not so come on, francis it often times people are so familiar with what they’re doing, that when when they’re talking, when i asked questions about it, they’re actually no, i can’t describe it. They’re not actually sure sometimes they don’t have the right people in the room to make. They’re not getting a full picture. And so it involves a lot of people on the team and they’re different perspectives in order to get the full picture so that we know in the software, what are we planning to do for them? Like, you know, do we want to automate some of the pieces? What? What are we trying to do to improve? They’re coming to us for reasons of their process. Yes, absolutely. So often technology is blamed for problems when really it’s the processes around the technology and maybe even some of the people that are the difficulties is not the technology. No. Well, i mean, it might be the technology i have sometimes astrology is erroneously blame? Yes, absolutely, absolutely because they’d not really sure what the process is and where either pain points are where maybe even where they’re successful in something, what did they want to continue to keep when they moved to the next? The next piece of software? Okay, wth this all relates down to efficiency, right? Absolutely more efficient, effective, faint on we only do that by being introspective about what, what it is we’re doing and it’s not even that everything is completely about efficiency mean that it’s going to like help with the bottom line and with staying in budget, but i think i do, does your process actually reflect? Your mission is important as well, so they’re definitely things where we’ve done internal processes for my organization, that we’ve changed and what we’re choosing not to make videos let’s say to make things super efficient and not cost so much because our mission is to empower organizations it’s really like partner with them and work with them so we’re actually work. We’ve chosen to speak live, you know, with our clients and because we feel like that’s really, really important rather than sending them off to just support guides all the time. That makes sense, right? So it’s, like you need you need both. Not only are you looking for efficiencies, which definitely is is going to be a value for your organization, but doesn’t mission. This mission comes suddenly. All right, so if we do want to identify our workflows and then pain points emerged from that what wei have technology? Teo, are you said, based on discussions, how do we start to work? How do we stop the map? Are flu’s rate of information and work through the office? So we actually like in the workshop, what we’re going to talk about is you have done yours, you know, it’s tomorrow, tomorrow and the day so you’re still one thirty is still thinking about it. Yeah, always thinking about that because you have already finished there. Right? Right. Right. You having? No, not yet. No. I’ve so that together we felt to be good tonight. Last finale is so how do we get this started? So the way that we like to do it, we’ve watched there’s this really excellent ted talks by a man named ted head. Tom would tom. Logic and he talks about i’m taking a really simple process so that people understand why it’s even important to due process mapping and he does it with with toast, right? So something that we’re all fairly familiar with this, how do you make toast taking that? And so that’s, what within the workshop we’re going to do is diagramming toast get people all on the same page that we understand that were regularly building process and then it’s interesting cause then every every piece of every action item that you would do to move your process from step one two step z. Okay, you will you khun sticky note it. And when we sticky note then we have the ability to be flexible with our process who’s in the room when we’re doing this, because listen, listeners don’t have the benefit of being at your workshop. That’s why that’s? Why i’m here get demanding you to another twelve thousand people who move, some of whom may be here, but not all of them, obviously so they’re not going to see your your toast diet totally. Yeah, workflows but this is something we can take. Okay, way. Have sticky notes. Who belongs in the room when we start doing this, key stakeholders are in the room so it can be executive level, but i think it’s also the people who are literally doing the work, they need to be heard and understood because there may be points of process, nobody knows that they don’t know that they’re doing i’m taking the information from jessica and bringing that in, but, well, how do you get that information? I just call her up right under an email and tell her that i need the info now for these three cases, right? We have, and then later today i’ll need some or totally informal think we don’t know that’s going on exactly know they don’t know we’ve had a client recently that, like what your name is, jessica. I don’t know, stefan. I know. There’s pulling around on the name anyway, i ok? It was random. I don’t. I don’t think your name. Just thank you. News that we have a client that literally walks from their office paperwork over to another office. They literally walks. Were like this. Amazing. You’re to save five hundred steps every day. You have to find another. Way to get those steps in for your counters, whatever, but okay, okay. So so in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dahna so in the room, we have a whiteboard and we have post it notes, we’re all the stakeholders and all the people it’s, the stakeholders, people doing the work, people doing the where we will also have senior staff, all right? And we’re taking a process. Like what? How do we define a process? So i like to think of it in sections, so don’t think of it necessarily likes top to bottom, group it into, like, parts of the process, so make it understandable, relatable, really quickly so that you can start tio drill down more into more complex process is because a lot of times processes are nested, right? So during a licensing process let’s say you would part of it is seeming background checks. Part of it is getting documentation, part of it, a signing documentation part of it is writing a home study, and then you’re going to, like, take it up to the state. Okay, there’s, lots of different processes. And before we just say okay, we do one, two, three that might be a good way to go about. It is just ordering what you khun d’oh. I like to section it, so that it’s more manageable chunks that make sense, okay, of course, those and then and then put the chunks together. Yes, then you’ll see the whole top to bottom, right, then you will see everything together, and because it becomes very overwhelming, if you look at the whole process, right, and we work with adoption, foster care agency license against one part of that process. So it’s, knowing windows licensing come in, what happens before what happens after, but looking at one chunk at a time so that you can organized that, okay? And then when you’ve got okay for step, one of the licensing process is we send some email to a family. We then can use it, used that on a sticky note and talk about that is like, how is that getting done? Is that scent through email or we mailing? Why would we? Male versus versace sent email and so you start to have discussions and probably like you said, executive level may not have any idea that actually paper males actually going out and that all the packets are in different locations or the documentation that needs to go not back. It might be, you know, there’s things that start to go come to light that aren’t necessarily known by everybody as as the stakeholder. Everybody who should be in the room. Okay, we got to take a break. Tellers it’s the time it’s time now start thinking of the companies that you can refer and ask them to switch to tell us you’ve heard the testimonials from both sides, from the charities and from the companies. For goodness sake, it’s. Time to start investing in your long term passive revenue month after month, you get fifty percent of the card fees that go to tell us. Start with the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s now back. To stephanie’s as yak dahna from eighteen ntc then, after we’ve we’ve done our map of the process. What are we? Well, he’s had a lot of conversations going to emerge out of this just out of the mapping exercise, right and pain points, my voice cracked, sorry, like i’m fourteen sametz main points are going to emerge and that’s where we can maybe applies and technology make things more efficient. Certainly yeah, or at least change, you know, or maybe maybe the process even shouldn’t change, but we need to understand why we’re doing it this way. Is there a good reason for doing it this way? And is there a reason for not changing? That happens sometimes? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, it’s not that everything in your process needs to change. A lot of times you got where you are because you’re processes is working it’s just there’s some reason that drove you to be two, to need to look at your process or like, you know, here we are at this technology conference. A lot of times it is to adopt a new technology because something doesn’t quite fit, you’re right? Yeah, white hair on my sweat, believe, is a foolish thing. Off there would have been your clothes. Have his white hair on my sweater. I can’t get it out because it’s so close, i can see right so close by, you see a double, and i kept grabbing the a fake one, all right, i got it. Little host digression. Okay, so there’s more to say about this. So i know part of your presentation is going to be mapping, toast, our journey, but we don’t. We’re not gonna do that here. No, but we still have another, you know, ten, fifty miss together. So what are we going toe whatmore, do small and midsize. Non-profits did you know about this workflows process so that they can scrutinized their own? I mean, it’s it’s important? No know going into it, it’s gonna be a dip, a difficult discussion. It is always important to bring in all the players, right? And really, even though we on the radio aren’t doing that exercise, it is an excellent exercise, too. Open up people’s minds to that. We all understand how to diagram. Can we talk about it when we talk through the toast example? Totally, you know, no, i don’t think it has to be visual, right? So this is we’re using this as an example of how to map your your own workflows process? Yes, exactly. And it’s in it’s ah, like an exercise. You can literally do this exercise with your team, so it feels kind of like, why would i do this? But it brings laughter. It brings cohesion on, but also brazen understanding of oh, we all see things from different perspectives, and when we actually talk about it and get it out in the open, we can see that and then improve our process because that might have been some of the problem is that you don’t actually know what other people are doing. I’m a little skeptical. That we were going to bring all this out. Okay. All right. So go ahead. Your facilitator get us get started. So the first part of the program are the exercise is going to be teo, actually diagram. So with a piece of paper and you are going to draw an image of how toast goes from, you know, a piece of bread, two toasts on whatever it might be. So for me, i used the toaster in other countries. They use a saute pan, and here it is, right at the end of the toast. Maybe you just want to eat it plain and dry. Maybe some people don’t. Maybe they put butter on it. Maybe they put jelly. I was. I did this presentation in in california earlier. There was a gentleman from australia. He puts vegemite. Right? It’s. Like what? What are the different people bringing some people? Look at these examples as very people center. Some people are very, very detailed. Some people keep it real simple. Well, i mean, i mean included in this. You have to go to the go to the pantry or the refrigerator where you store your bread, right? I mean you got to get you gotta get the substance first. Some people may not remember that step and what’s interesting. I actually just spoke with a client. It was very good that i thought that absolutely, yeah, i appreciate that. Okay, so so i just spoke with a claim who’s actually used the example in in her non-profit setting in the foster care agency she works with, and what she found was interesting is that she now knows kind of what people think. Look how they think about what they’re doing and what do they need? Right? So she gave a really great example of one of the women needed. All of the resource is before i get started, i need have the jelly neto have the toast they need tohave the plate, right? Whatever really isn’t a plant she’s a planner, and that opened her eyes to how to better communicate with that person because not everybody comes at it that way. When i draw the toast, i get the plate in the middle. I also like we always joke about it isn’t like i’m single mom, some like doing the dishes when the toast is down, i’m doing. Something else? Because i’m gonna be super efficient. Ok? Ok. All right. So okay. So there’s, other value in this do? Yeah. In terms of understanding. People’s work personalities. Exactly. Alright. All right. What? We teach us a little more? Yeah, totally. But i want value. Not just, you know, not just filler. So what else? All right. So, you know, in terms of what? What else? What else have you learned from this? Well, so then step two is to then take all of these action items. Make the sticky notes, right? Okay. And so the point of the sticky notes is our brains actually work better with what goes on. A sticky note. All of the action items. All of the action items. So refrigerator walked to the refrigerator. Goldenburg, bring the knife out, get the jelly, get the bread pushed down the toaster, right? If you forget any of those steps, you have an opportunity to actually include them. You can also reorganize them. So if you find that it’s more efficient to get the plate and the jelly and the toaster and the bread and all of these resource is beforehand, you can move them from where i had them right in the middle, right up to the front, which means that you might need. A pantry to store all these things. Right? So, like, how can you make that part more efficient? Sometimes your eyes roll back in your head you know you just when you’re thinking when you’re thinking i thought you were having having a stroke no, your eyes roll back. Wait now i do a lot all wait, i don’t just recently started tio have been crossing but it’s like they’re rolling back like a stroke do that i have no idea it’s all white, everything becomes white there’s just eyelashes and it’s probably can’t do it on your unconsciously thinking yeah is going real first time i let it go one first time let it go. But now you’re going to call it. Thanks. Probably nobody noticed. Well, everybody’s going to know my eyes turn way another twelve thousand part castles. They definitely did not notice. Okay. All right. So you have fun here non-profit radio because you were not gonna have fun. Then before they’ll buy d’oh bother. I dragged my ass over here. Sit down. I don’t always you know, tio new orleans. I mean, it’s. A great city. Okay, i know it is, but i would have been here if it weren’t for ntcdinosaur, probably on the beach in north carolina, anyway, okay, that’s, a host aggression again, uh, all right, so what, the post it note stage every little step, and then you, khun decided i could re order you, khun reorder and s o tom says that the the ease with which we can re order it makes us more likely to improve the process, right, are were more willing to improve. We’re willing to change things when it feels feasible and easy to do that if we can’t. If it feels like you know my team member created diagram on. Some program, right? So it’s got the arrows like power point or something, right? Like she’s did this all this work to make this process look like that i’m less likely to go in? Terrible her work, but sticky notes a really easy there, real cheap. They’re very like budget friendly, obviously for organizations. And this toast exercise really again just allows you to be free flowing with it. Part three okay, let’s move on a par three is then to take everybody’s individual sticky notes and put them together. So now you’re actually building cohesion. You’re hearing actually what other mobile one? You’re putting them up on the board? I am tryingto rationalized them all into the same process. Exactly what? Some people, some people have some steps and other people skip those steps and everything. They might not plug in the toaster nothing’s going to happen if you press that down, right and so it’s like you can pull all the all the pieces. This is where where someone is walking. You know, the folder from one organization to another. You realize that that you didn’t realize that was actually happening before you finally get to hear everybody’s. Voice time for our last break text to give quote, i compared a bunch of companies in my search for a text to donate company and text to give is the best hands down. They have been helpful beyond helpful. I can’t imagine anyone doing this better exclamation mark clyne and quote that’s lauren bouchard from global commission partners in clermont, florida. You heard her last week also, you want to get text to give you want to do mobile giving? This is the company you need. It’s simple secure for info text npr to four, four, four, nine nine, nine. We’ve got several more minutes for process blocking. Your progress is there? Step for no. Well, so that’s that’s the exercise. But then the thing is, is guess set for i guess. Yes. Retract what i said. Yes, there is a step forward is to do this with your own processes. Right? Soto, look at this really complex process. You need to organize it into smaller chunks that are more manageable. Right? And then you can diagram it. You khun sticky. Note it. You can work together and bring in where what? The program manager believes that the process is and then that people who might actually be doing that process and hearing like i brought up this home study or the licensing process there are certainly program managers that are approving, they might initiate part of the process, they are connecting that process with the case manager with social worker, all these people were coming together to make this process happen. There’s also external factors like the state agency or the back where the background checks are being done, or the people who have to approve the home study. So there’s all these people at play and it really helps to bring a fuller circle because the program manager might only be connected with the case manager and a social worker. But these people are connected to the state agencies. And where does the family come involved? Right? So you’re pulling ever you’re being able to see everybody okay? Now in your own organizations, if you’re not doing this kind of work, uh, there may be processes that that you’re just not comfortable with. Maybe maybe even before the before you identify specific pain points, you just know that something is something is not right about the way. We i don’t know, acknowledge process donations and send acknowledgements, you know, there’s something that it takes us too long. It feels like it’s harder for us than it is for my friends and other organizations. So that might be a a rationale for applying this process. Absolutely. That process, you know, playing this this exercise to that process? Yeah. Okay. Okay. And really, i mean, tony, you can also mean we’re always doing process, so i love this book. I might get the title a little bit wrong, but it’s like the life changing magic of cleaning tidying up kayman and she actually discusses process in our life. It’s just like spring cleaning every year. But she organizes all of your items in your house into certain groups. Then she you take out what’s what’s not needed. You hold it up, right? And so i’ve talked about the mission is like holding it up to you. Do i feel joy when i touch this item? If no it’s gone it’s no longer part of the process like part of the process, i guess when you’re combining and you’re finding that cohesion with all your team members is going back and aligning with you’re mission and even even the mission or the mission of whatever project you’re working on, right? So if it is your donations and acknowledgements, you’re wanting to get those out krauz making sure that that aligns with how you run your organization, the values of your organization, how you value your donor. Yeah, okay, i mean, because a lot of times donors are multifaceted and how they work with your organization, so they’re not just offering funds to you like they might be boardmember sze, they might have been volunteers, some of the agencies that we work with, they it might have been families. So how are you touching all of these these people who have multiple connections to your organization? Okay, okay. And i like how you bring it back to mission also mean that mission it’s soo in importance, whatever, whatever this processes that you’re being interest. Really, really, this is organizational introspection, right? I mean, way i see it, you’re you’re, you’re taking a deeper look at yourself as an organization. How do you work? Yeah, absolutely. And i mean, like i said to write, so i didn’t want to throw in that. That book just because it felt really good it’s, just like you would do spring cleaning annually, you’ve got you’ve got to constantly go back to this, so sometimes your mission might be stale. Your people aren’t feeling it. I mean, you just have a sense if you’re in the organization so ambitious it’s out of the mission is dale, it could be it couldn’t be, could there is potential for that, right? So it may or may not. One of the things in certainly in the workshop that we’re going to talk about is actually making people also relate to the mission. So just like the process of mapping out where your processes making it possible so that your team actually feels the mission that they relate to it that’s not an abstract idea if it is a top down or as you’ve added people into your organization over time, though it could be you. Yes, you may have. Your mission may have become less relevant dahna or you may have strayed from it. Diluted it. Oh, are you? The mission itself may require evaluation. We re thinking absolutely. Yeah. Okay. That’s. A very healthy exercise. We’re gonna leave. It there. Okay. All right. She is stephanie and she’s director of n reached solutions. I said it right there. Bear close. Yes, grayce newsjacking yes. Okay. And my interview with her with stephanie sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits thank you so much for being with non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ntc next week. Guess if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled durney dahna slash pursuing capital p when you see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com bye! Tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream durney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine nine, nine a creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez mark silverman is our web guy and this cool music is by scott stein. Thank you for that information. Scotty. Been a long time. You with me? Next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in some type of potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time, and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c wait. 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