Andrea Hoffer: 6 Steps Before You Hire
Hiring is rampant because turnover is rampant. You have work to do internally, before you go public with your job posting. Andrea Hoffer, from AHA! Recruiting Experts, talks you through her 6 steps. You can download the first chapter of Andrea’s book, “Hire Higher.” We recorded on a bus in the Israeli desert.
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Transcript for 619_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20221205.mp3
It’s a pleasure to welcome to non profit radio Andrea Hoffer, Andrea is a businesswoman over three decades of experience. She’s managed hundreds of employees and knows firsthand the everyday challenges, motivating a team, exceeding customer expectations and meeting business and revenue goals now Andrea is using her experience to help companies recruit hire and onboard new team members successfully without wasting time or money on those poor hires that don’t work out. Her company is a hot recruiting a AJ they are at aha underscore recruiting and at aha recruiting experts dot com Andrea welcome to nonprofit radio [00:02:09.12] spk_2:
hi, Tony, I’m really happy to be here. This is, this is pretty cool, [00:03:41.33] spk_1:
You’re happy in your surprise surprise Andrea and I are on a bus in Israel, we are headed to the dead sea, we met at this course called Israel innovation that she and I are both taking along, with I don’t know seems to be maybe 60 or 70 other people most are not from the US most are from latin America brazil chile Argentina. Uh, but there are also folks from central America Panama, Colombia costa rica. Uh, there’s a woman from Ireland should make sure that we know Ireland is in the house every time we have a meeting. So we’re spending a week together traveling through Israel. Uh, we’ve been in tel Aviv together. Um, today we left tell Aviv came to the negative desert, the desert we visited kibbutz and now we’re on a bus from the kibbutz to the Dead sea where we’re gonna stay overnight in hotels and we are stealing some time on the bus so that Andrea and I can record and I can record because we’re not sure if we’re gonna have time any other time. There might be occasional interruptions, bus noises. And we’re on the bus. Welcome! Welcome. We are talking about the process of discovery, which is the earliest phase, right? This is the earliest phase of [00:03:50.55] spk_2:
Yes, but what you do before you even put a job ad out there, things you need to think about. So that when you do start recruiting, you’re looking for the for the right person. [00:04:04.69] spk_1:
Okay, so we’re in introspective exercise in house were strictly in house Discovery and you call this phase Discovery? [00:04:10.96] spk_2:
Yes. [00:04:11.69] spk_1:
Why is that? [00:04:27.93] spk_2:
Because a lot of it you actually know, but you haven’t thought about it, You haven’t asked yourself those questions that you’re discovering this about yourself, about your organization, about the people that work for you and what you want your work culture to look like, what you want your team to look like. [00:04:34.23] spk_1:
Okay, okay, now one thing I didn’t say in your bio, you are founder and what you what do you call yourself at, recruiting founder and Ceo [00:04:44.99] spk_2:
founder and Ceo [00:04:46.08] spk_1:
founder and Ceo [00:04:47.36] spk_2:
recruiting experts, [00:04:53.26] spk_1:
recruiting experts. Okay, excellent. Alright, so you have a discovery process, You have a process for this discovery? [00:04:57.61] spk_2:
Yes. So we have six questions. Um six overall questions that we typically take our clients through and um and then there are lots of questions underneath it to go to go deeper, but I can [00:05:11.15] spk_1:
to talk to [00:05:11.99] spk_2:
You about the six, [00:05:13.17] spk_1:
the six most important and maybe some of my questions will evoke some of your sub questions etcetera. So, okay, so [00:06:34.06] spk_2:
the first question is really, you know, why does this position exist? What is the main purpose of it? Every position has some reason it exists and it typically in some way will contribute to the bottom line and will contribute to the mission of the company. So it either in some way is gonna save your company money or in some way is going to make the company more money, but it’s usually even bigger than that. And I and I have an example I can share to you. Um, so one example I like to share is an account manager and the job we like to break it into job title, job purpose and then organizational mission. And so the job title of account manager could be the job purpose to ensure client’s expectations are exceeded. Very, you know, it’s very simple. There’s no very high level, no getting this wrong. You know, we tell people don’t worry about getting it right. You’re gonna start, you’re going to tweak it over over time, but just put some thought into it. So you have direction. Um, so the whole purpose of this account manager’s job is to make sure the client’s expectations are exceeded. And then as we go through some of these other questions of these six questions will go a little bit deeper of what that looks like. [00:06:51.07] spk_1:
Let’s let’s reassure folks that this certainly applies to non profits because your work is, your work is mostly you’ve done some work with nonprofits and you have a background in nonprofits. [00:07:07.38] spk_2:
Yes. I started working in higher ed. And so in an arts organization that was all non profit. And then when I started the company, I did a lot of consulting with nonprofits in addition to small business, [00:07:21.93] spk_1:
everything we’re talking about transfers [00:07:23.44] spk_2:
of course, [00:07:25.56] spk_1:
Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. And I’m sure you all know [00:07:32.11] spk_2:
that in many ways, a lot of these questions of why a position exists or what the mission is of an organization. In some ways, it’s even easier for the nonprofits to answer because they talk about their mission so much more than business students often. So it there’s a good connection there [00:08:07.52] spk_1:
and before we go further with, because we’re still at the very high level, why does the position exist? Who should be well, yeah, who should be answering these questions? What’s the structure do we send around a survey to all the employees? Is it only the employees who are going to work with the person whose whose position were filling is leadership involved? Who’s answering this? What are the logistics of getting? [00:08:36.48] spk_2:
A lot of it depends on how large the organization is. We have done this process with just the Ceo or just the leader of if it’s a non profit organization, but typically would recommend getting at least the leadership involved. But if you’re thinking, if you can get more people involved in answering these questions and discussing these questions and get as many people as possible, the better outcomes better you’re going to answer these questions, [00:08:49.58] spk_1:
you like the idea of maybe circulating the questions in advance and then meeting everybody writing their answers that [00:09:55.98] spk_2:
we actually have. Sometimes what we do if the organization agrees and they can get more people involved is we do a sort of sort of what you just said, like a questionnaire like a survey of different than have each person fill it out separately without talking to each other. Even if it’s a small organization, we’re just sitting at the four or five people and then we get them all together and we talk about, well, okay, here are the patterns we saw here, here’s what everybody’s saying and usually about 70 to 80% is going to be similar but then hear the differences and why do you, why do you think this person answered this and this and that person into that? And we talk about the gaps and then a lot of times we’re able to bring it together and and really come to a, I don’t want to say a compromise, but something that is behind a consensus. [00:10:00.90] spk_1:
Um, Alright, so we’re at the level, why does this position even exist? [00:10:22.73] spk_2:
So the next one is, it’s about the outcomes you’re looking for and this drills it down. Um, often two metrics, you know, how do you qualify this and the, and you know, I know you’re doing a planned giving and if you talk about a fundraising, which is kind of an offshoot bringing money in there could be the amount of money, the level of money that this position is responsible for bringing in. It could be how much money you want to bring in for different events or for different milestones or deadlines. [00:10:45.58] spk_1:
What if it’s a program [00:10:47.02] spk_2:
position [00:10:48.14] spk_1:
and they’re gonna be doing service [00:10:50.00] spk_2:
to [00:10:51.61] spk_1:
beneficiary humans in some in some capacity and then would it be like your monthly throughput or a number of client hours you spend? It [00:11:02.97] spk_2:
could be, it could be retention, It could be [00:11:07.06] spk_1:
keeping people in [00:11:13.36] spk_2:
keeping volunteers or keeping how many people attend and and come back each time. You know, anything that shows growth that shows that it’s a contribution to the, to the mission overall. [00:11:22.54] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. Again, that’s why mission can be so [00:11:25.01] spk_2:
valuable. Exactly. [00:11:34.97] spk_1:
Because your, as you said, you know, we’re talking about mission often it’s the core, it’s the reason we exist. It’s protecting the homeless, It’s protecting animals. It’s feeding the hungry education [00:12:01.45] spk_2:
and this is what’s going to attract people. All of this is what is going to attract people to join your team to join your organization and money of course is important to most people they have to be able to live. But and to many people this mission knowing how they contribute to the mission of the organization, whether it’s a business or a non profit is just as important, sometimes more important than than the money factor. And so if you can get this part right and and show that connection, you’re gonna attract more skilled people and more pass. [00:12:24.15] spk_1:
And I see why you say we’re jumping ahead because now we’re kind of bleeding into promoting the promoting position and organization to the, to the and the mission to the right people, but we’re still in the discovery phase, but, but it all into relates of course. Um And so these are, these are valuable introspection questions. Okay. Anything else that you want to say about that? That second one before we? [00:12:47.77] spk_2:
No, I think I think [00:12:49.03] spk_1:
you’ve [00:15:53.09] spk_2:
pretty much got the gist of it there. Um and then the next one is I like to refer to it as success traits. But what are the characteristics? And this is yeah, this is specific to the position because we’re going to talk about the organizational culture in a moment. But you know, what are the specific characteristics, specific traits that you have seen of successful people in this position or similar position in the past? And this takes some thought and and we usually, the way we pull it out of people is by stories. I’m a big fan of thinking back and writing down stories stories of um when you had team members that were successful and lots of different successes. Big successes. But I’m always encouraging people to to track those things to write them down. And then also stories of when people weren’t successful and you start to see patterns of the different traits of of what would make somebody successful in this particular position. Um and I’ll give you an example. We um, you know, we often will recruit for executive assistants and we had a couple of years ago we had a ceo and just can apply non profit for profit. But this this happened to be a for profit company. Um, and she needed an executive assistant and she had already gone through several, nobody was successful with. Um, and one of the things, one of the reasons why she was having trouble finding the right person was her company, um, was very fast pace. It, everybody in the company traveled a lot and the Ceo was absolutely brilliant. She needed somebody who could organize her and be like a million steps ahead of her. And, and used to that chaos and be able to thrive in that chaos. So we knew we were recruiting that those were some of the traits we were looking for. So we had lots of amazing executive assistant candidates who had great skills. But as soon as we talked to them and learned, you know, that they’ve been an executive system, say in a large organization for yes, a very busy, you know, senior executive, but it was still structured, they were still useful. A lot of structure. We knew they weren’t going to be a good fit. So we knew what types of success traits to, to look for and, and then, you know, we take that and we drill it down to a couple of sentences so that it really jumps out at the right person when we’re going to look for someone. And so that it’s very clear to us for more interview, was [00:15:53.54] spk_1:
there any chance that you should have been recruiting for a new Ceo, in that, in that company? [00:16:18.50] spk_2:
Actually there are lots of businesses and even non profit organizations that do function in that way. There’s still some structure, there’s still productivity. But because of the nature of what they do there is this daily chaos. You just have to find the right way to say. And and it was also where they were in their history as a, as a company to with the growth. [00:18:29.44] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications their e newsletter this week. What a year in review can do for you. And they talk about the value of a year in review article or blog post that you write. They say that it usually only requires a light lift because you just need to spend time summarizing stuff that you’ve been writing all year long and of course you’re gonna file focus on milestones, you know, main achievements, accomplishments. But they also suggest including challenges, especially if you overcame them successfully. Because that adds some authenticity. Right? And they suggest that a year in review can help you, of course, you know, showcase your results. You just talked about, you know, accomplishments, achievements, you can acknowledge your key audiences, supporters, loyal customers, donors, your, your beneficiaries, any any parts of your year in review that you can work these folks in all the better boost morale. Uh, it’s often easy to forget all the things that you did achieve over the year at the end of the, at the end of the year because it’s so busy. So this can help refresh recollections about the good things that that happened through the year. Um, so those are some ideas that they have around your year in review piece. You can get their e newsletter, which is on message at turn hyphen two dot c o turn to communications. Your story is their mission Now back to six steps before you hire. We [00:18:29.70] spk_1:
Have Questions 4, 5 and six. [00:18:31.19] spk_2:
Yes. I’m trying to make sure. I don’t forget any [00:18:33.98] spk_1:
here. You [00:20:15.83] spk_2:
know, I think this is good and let me just go back to my thing here. So the, so we talked about success trades which are specific to the position, but then you have your core values that are specific to the overall organ. So everyone in the organization, no matter what position they have lived by. These core values and I call them, um, kind of your default zone, your guiding principles. And if you’re done right, if they’re really alive in your organization, then you know that no matter what decisions being made by anybody in the organization that there they’ll be making a decision the way you around those values, the way they act. And so for example, one of our core values at aha is think like a detective. So we’re often kind of putting our detective hat on and often the core values do start to come from what’s important to the ceo to the person who’s running the company or restart the company but you want to make sure that they’re also important to everybody in the organization that they like. It they they’re successful by it there it’s natural for them. So when when we’re recruiting for our company we’re looking for people who are curious Think outside the box who put their detective hat on and don’t just accept, you know you have to do things 123 but there’s gotta be another way to do it better. Um And so it comes up in our meetings a lot. You know when somebody says they have a challenge, did you put your detective hat on? How you know how else can we? So that’s one of our core values [00:20:28.18] spk_1:
since we’re in the middle here were three out of six I want to mention. Andrew you don’t have in your Andrea you don’t have in your bio that you’re the author of. Higher. [00:20:38.84] spk_2:
Higher. [00:21:01.30] spk_1:
Unless I I don’t I don’t I didn’t deliberately cut it out of your cut it out of your bio. No look there’s I’m showing her the bio bio on her phone which does not mention that she is the author of the book. It says about the author it’s a piece of a larger pr alright still. Okay well she’s she’s the author of the book. Higher. Higher. H. I. R. E. H. I. G. H. T. R. Which you can get on amazon. Higher. [00:21:10.17] spk_2:
Higher and and in the book it’s a very practical guide and it does walk through these six questions and a lot more but it goes into more detail about it and [00:21:29.55] spk_1:
we can’t do everything the surface, we can’t dive deep. Just you know, if this intrigues you, you got to get the book, that’s the only way to get the full depth. Alright. Number four question four discovery process. [00:22:21.29] spk_2:
So this is what everybody already thinks they know right when when you’re thinking about, I got to fill a job. I always say employers say okay they have to have this many years of experience in this particular industry and they’ve had to have You know, no this specific software and have this education and all of these skills and when I go online and I look at job as it’s usually pages and pages of the experience and skills that they want as can be a really big mistake. So what I recommend in this area is just narrow it down to the 4-6 skills or experience that you absolutely need for the job and think about [00:22:27.56] spk_1:
Like 13 Bullets one [00:22:33.38] spk_2:
job. I just [00:22:36.65] spk_1:
I get bored. [00:22:40.48] spk_2:
Most candidates look at it. I [00:22:44.63] spk_1:
can’t possibly sometimes I wonder if there’s anybody who could really creating such an ideal that I think there may be scaring candidates away. They’re intimidated by the prospect of the requirements of the [00:23:10.31] spk_2:
job. And the interesting thing is there have been studies done between men and women and men typically, Even if they can only do three out of the 15 bullets on the list will apply, but women, if they can do 14 out of 15 on average will not apply. So you end up [00:23:22.81] spk_1:
cutting out, you [00:24:05.01] spk_2:
know, a big part of the population. Um, so you know, we typically recommend between four and six of the most important, think about what you’re set up to train for. So you know, if you can bring someone on who has the right attitude, you know, they’re trainable, make sure you can train them or you have something, some resources to train them. Um, and then that opens the field for you and, and people love training and professional development. That’s one of the big things. Again, it’s are always asking about what, how am I gonna get growth from this? How is this going to take me to the next level? So that’s an amazing thing to offer somebody [00:24:08.81] spk_1:
training. Professional development is important even more. So maybe now in the post pandemic economy, they want candidates want to know that the company, the organization is going to invest in their growth, [00:24:24.07] spk_2:
that they’re going to invest in the growth, that there’s opportunity to move up. But even if there is an opportunity to move up because sometimes certain organizations just, it just doesn’t have, that is their opportunity to learn something new. There are lots of ways to keep people happen about what they’re doing and wanting to stick, stick around even if it’s not a huge bump in pay and a huge title. That’s not always what’s most important to [00:24:54.78] spk_1:
people? What do we have next? [00:26:14.38] spk_2:
Okay, let’s see. Did we go? We went through five already, Right. But we went through four. Okay. We talked about results. So what, why do people stay at your organization and why do they leave that often? We don’t even ask ourselves that. And that was probably a question for, for your current team. You know, what, what is it that they really enjoy about working there? Is it the mission, is it that you’re, you do a lot of things together as a team. Is it the pay, is it the professional development? There could be lots of different things sometimes, which is very big. Now it’s the flexibility, you know, if they’re they can come in at different hours, um, or you know, is there a work from home? Is there a hybrid? That’s of course very big right now. What is it that keeps them and what is it that drives them away? And that often could be like, you know, you you made a comment when I I talked about that example of this Ceo and the kind of the chaos, some people thrive in that by your comment. It sounds like that would probably drive you away. Um, so be very clear about what your environments like and put it all out there sometimes. Um People will ask me, well shouldn’t I make it sound really great? Only if it’s true, Be authentic and find out what is true. [00:26:23.97] spk_1:
Otherwise you’re misleading the candidates. [00:26:25.53] spk_2:
Exactly. It’s [00:26:26.39] spk_1:
a chaotic environment and a lot of flexibility is needed and it’s hard to work through a weekly plan that you might [00:26:34.83] spk_2:
put put [00:27:13.69] spk_1:
together on monday or the friday before. Uh then then reveal that because the person is gonna leave in a couple of months when they realize that it’s not, it’s not the predictable week after week pattern that you made it sound like that. You just told me out explicitly that it is all right. So if we’re at why do people, why do people stay and why do people leave? Uh look people could be leaving because of leadership, difficult leadership, but now we’re having leadership. Answer the answer the survey uh here’s where the leaders answers the C suite answers. They diverge from the and who in the C suite is gonna be willing to admit that they are the reason or contributing to the reason that people leave. [00:28:39.25] spk_2:
You would be surprised that I have met a lot of leaders over the years, both in non profit and for profit. And I have met leaders who who recognize where their challenges are. And sometimes they’ll say I need to hire somebody to fill that gap for me. Actually met with a later a couple weeks ago who said that, he said you know what I know I’m not good at managing people like keeping the team motivated that it um checking in with them and making sure they’re supported so I need to hire somebody to help me with that or that order kind of fill that gap. So a lot of them will especially now because more important because we as a society after the pandemic are demanding more of that you know to be recognized to be respected too leaders who are going to contribute to our growth. So I think that more and more leaders are even if they have to be banged on the head a little bit with it um I think they’re recognizing the importance of that and that they need to do that they want to retain, [00:28:42.12] spk_1:
okay you’re finding that people are realistic [00:28:46.70] spk_2:
about it couldn’t be [00:29:06.07] spk_1:
careful, you should watch your hair on your left side too. So that was Andrea Andrea I’ve been calling you for half a week now and recording and I keep saying Andrea Andrea touching her mike but we’re on the fly here that’s what that’s what that noise in the middle of anything else went through everything. That’s a very good one why why people stay and why people [00:30:42.21] spk_2:
leave, you could spend a lot of time on that. It was so funny I actually I met with often I will run masterminds or be in masterminds with other organizational leaders and there was one woman who um her business is growing very quickly and she said I’m so overwhelmed and like what are you overwhelmed with? She said I’m overwhelmed with the employee and gauge. I feel like there’s so much I need to do to show my employees I care and to keep them happy and successful and I’ve been told like you know there’s so much out there and it’s just there’s so much more because that we’re hearing now. So I was like you don’t have to do everything right away. Just check in with your team regularly. That’s probably the most important thing is checking in, see how you can help them and make sure they know you’re being authentic. You’re being sincere. You truly want to hear if there’s a challenge which this leader is naturally empathetic. So I said really you just need to be you. She had a counseling background but I told her to just start with three things that [00:30:47.38] spk_3:
we are [00:30:48.36] spk_1:
now we’re gonna pause while we have an introduction explanation. [00:31:27.55] spk_3:
Maybe we should include this. People have problems with breathing. They come to because the air here is very very dry and it’s very good for people who have problems breathing and lungs problems. Now the dead sea is also part of I would say medical tourism and now that we are starting to go down to the dead sea A lot is like 4, 500 m above sea level. The dead sea is 425 m below sea level. So we’re going out 800 m down. [00:31:39.92] spk_1:
Alright. So there’s a little bit about the dead sea and how far below sea level it is courtesy of our guide for the week. Is Michael from Denmark. [00:33:07.18] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. We are at the beginning of december which of course is most likely a very important month for you regardless of how you perform, how your organization comes out tomorrow is another opportunity to grow. So I’m urging you to shed Let go how it goes today. This week you have another day tomorrow, you have another week and you have the one after. So regardless of how you and your nonprofit do even this year 2023 is another opportunity Full of 365 days. If you do great this year. 2022, fantastic. If you don’t, 2023 is another new full year. Your past doesn’t define your future and you have many opportunities to grow each day, week, month year. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for six steps before you hire with Andrea hoffer. [00:33:26.29] spk_1:
We were talking about the reasons why people leave the reasons why people stay and I was saying that I think that’s valuable introspection. Even apart from a hiring process, this is valuable, valuable to think about these things. Is there anything more that you want to add on? [00:35:51.46] spk_2:
No, not onto that. And you know I agree it is it is very important and you know sometimes we do all this work with clients and to find them the best candidate or what we think is the best candidate. And what we have learned over the years is that we also need to do work with the employers on how to set the new higher up for success and and keep them happy and help them with success on ongoing because we’re seeing, we started doing a survey of our people. We placed last year in 2021 we placed 100 and 65 people and we have been reaching out to them At different points like 30 days in 60 days and 90 a year to find out. Did they feel like the recruitment process was professional? Was it a good representation of where they were going? And then what was, you know, what is it like at the company And what we’re hearing? A lot of is I wasn’t really, I’m generalizing here but I wasn’t really set up for success. I wasn’t given the resources I needed to be successful or sometimes it wasn’t as described, which means we we didn’t get the correct information from from the employer because what what also seems to happen sometimes is the employer things change quickly in organizations and sometimes they change the position so they might not change position title, but then they changed the expectations around the position and that’s not what was quote sold to the candidates. So if and sometimes it happens and it’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how the organization, the direction is moving. And I always recommend just just be up with with your new hire and talk to them and figure out is this the right fit for you? And how can we work with you? So that it can be the right fit and maybe there’s somebody else in the organization where it’s a better fit and you can put this person in a position that will work for them, [00:35:53.34] spk_1:
but at least be upfront and talking about these things. So we kind of melded a couple of these together. So why don’t you just read through one through six? So it’s clear that we’ve covered everything. [00:36:20.94] spk_2:
Okay, So the first one is why does the position exist next? Or what are the results or outcomes needed from this position? And I think we just grazed over that one. And one of the things I do want to mention that I didn’t mention earlier related to that question is I’m a big fan of, [00:36:31.86] spk_1:
I even asked you if there were more [00:37:51.80] spk_2:
my brain. Okay, so I’m a big fan of result oriented job descriptions and and that means, you know, writing the job description for the results that you’re looking for. So I think this question is really important and sometimes you can get a really great candidate from a different industry who has accomplished something very close to what you’re looking to accomplish from this position. So, so the more clear on what you’re looking for, what, you know what we always ask, what will give this person a great performance evaluation in 90 days, What would they have accomplished for you to say A plus for them in the 1st 90 days and, and and then different segments of, you know, the next time line, so that I just wanted to make sure I cover that. So the next question is, um what skills and experience are needed to do this job successfully? What is specific traits, we call them success traits or attributes that make a person successful in this position. What are the specific you’re set fit in your organizational culture? We’re talking about core values. And then lastly, um why did team members stay with you? And why did they leave [00:38:34.50] spk_1:
question. What about um salary? Now we’re now we’re jumping outside of discovery. But you and I talked earlier when we were getting to know each other about salary range disclosures, job descriptions, which is becoming so much more important. New york state just passed a law that requires it. Um I thought I had seen that in Oregon too. I might be mistaken about that. You hadn’t heard of that one, but at least we know new york state has, has passed that law and other states are considering it. And just it’s just, it’s a movement apart from whether it’s legal or not legally required [00:38:39.84] spk_2:
or not right [00:38:41.58] spk_1:
share your opinion on disclosing salary or arrange a description. [00:39:28.85] spk_2:
It’s always been a best practice. And now in many states, like you mentioned tony it’s a law. Um, and I think at some point it will probably be a law and in just about all states. The reason for it, there’s, there’s several reasons, but one of the main reasons that’s become a law in a lot of states is because in the past, um, there’s been a lot of bias and discrimination when it comes to pay. When you think about how women have been paid or different cultural groups or background? Exactly. And so if you are not transparent about your salary and you then, because I hear this a lot from employers, well, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m going to pay. We’ll see what the person made before. Well, all that’s doing is contributing to the bad uneven inequitable from the perpetuating. Thank [00:39:49.71] spk_1:
you. [00:40:38.04] spk_2:
Right. So what you need to do is think about What can you pay, what do you think the return is for this position that your organization can afford. Um, and what is it worth to the value that’s going to be contributed and and create a range there and don’t make the range 100,000. I usually recommend. I see sometimes do. Exactly. I usually recommend, you know maybe a $10,000 range, maybe a $20,000 range. Um not much more than that. And and you can decide based on what what that person you’re hiring is going to bring, how much training you need to give them. I’m up to speed. Um The other thing is it just waste your time if you’re not transparent [00:40:43.08] spk_1:
upfront, [00:40:43.84] spk_2:
it wastes the jobseeker’s time and it wastes your time because everybody [00:40:49.11] spk_1:
well [00:40:57.37] spk_2:
look at the job and have different thoughts on what it’s going to pay. So I may apply for the job Thinking that it’s going to pay 100,000 and you’re only planning to pay 40,000. And if we don’t get to that until the third interview, well we’ve wasted so much time and it just frustrates both of us so that no [00:41:13.74] spk_1:
candidate is going to ask about salary in the first interview. Maybe not even in a second if they know there’s another coming [00:41:24.16] spk_2:
and less candidates are going to apply for your job if they don’t know what because they’re afraid they’re gonna waste their time. And they often feel like [00:41:31.35] spk_1:
because [00:41:31.87] spk_2:
you’re not being transparent with that you might not be transparent with other things as well, so you might not be the right employer for [00:41:51.70] spk_1:
them. Um And just let’s let’s kind of wrap up with what you are seeing in our sort of trend one or two things that you, you want folks to know about, you know, in this post pandemic hiring environment that we find ourselves, [00:42:19.05] spk_2:
People are looking for their passion, their looking for, not just the passion connected to the mission that the company that that is a big part of it, but they’re looking for a place they can call home, they’re looking for flexibility. They’re looking for an environment that they’re happy to go to work and it doesn’t matter the [00:42:26.12] spk_1:
level of [00:44:01.07] spk_2:
the position. Um Pay is also important. They want to be paid what they feel their worth. And because pay, we’re seeing a big trend and increase of pay. Um uh you know, jobs that have paid one amount for decades are now have, have, we’ve seen large jumps in them. Um but then I’ve seen where candidates have been willing to take a pay cut if it means they could work from home or they could have more flexibility or it’s something that they truly believe in. And I have seen a great trend of candidates of job seekers who have left or actually even gotten laid off during the pandemic from high paying, high pressure jobs that are now saying they want a job in a nonprofit in something that they truly believe in. And they usually have a specific type of nonprofit or type of mission that they have in mind because it’s something important to them specifically. And I’m not saying that there isn’t anyone, but for them individually. And I think the pandemic has really, it’s created this thing in all of us where life short, right? Like it. I want to just do something I want to be contributing in a way that that works for me on both my time and what, what’s important to me. And I think that’s important as you go out and recruit people and as you work with people as well to keep that in mind, [00:44:10.04] spk_1:
a lot of us have heard from [00:44:11.95] spk_2:
people who want [00:44:50.27] spk_1:
to want to now give back. That was even pre pandemic. But I think the pandemic accelerated it being more reflective about their career because of the pandemic people question their own mortality. And in the early days of the pandemic, we didn’t know if, if you were 30 if they could kill you or if you were 75 if it could kill you or or if one was a greater risk than the other. We didn’t know, People were really questioning a lot of things in life and obviously career is enormous. So, um, you know, we, we see so much about nomads, digital nomads traveling the US traveling the world and moving and working from a completely different time zones and completely different atmospheres because they want to have a richer life, but they still need to make some money. So they’re happy to work from wherever, if you’ll allow [00:45:37.45] spk_2:
it. And if the type of position you have available, if you’re able to think maybe a little outside the box and make it either a hybrid or remove or add some of that flexibility in that is so important to people now and and they because of the pandemic where they saw companies and organizations, they will take, [00:45:39.73] spk_1:
oh [00:45:40.02] spk_2:
no, we don’t do that here as an answer. Then there’s then there’s, you know, then that’s not for me. Plus [00:45:45.80] spk_1:
as [00:45:59.01] spk_2:
things started to let up just a little bit during the pandemic was still pretty early on. The question I got over and over again from candidates was what will happen um with this position if if we end up having to shut down again, if we have another pandemic and I haven’t been hearing as much of the past year, but that first year or heard a lot because they do not want to be laid off again, you know, they wanted. So you might want to think about that as well. It’s not just because they want the flexibility. They also want that security that they know if a pandemic hits again, they’ll still be able to make a living. [00:46:28.27] spk_1:
Okay? We’re in the we’re in the Israeli desert Negev were descending as you [00:47:00.14] spk_3:
heard going 425 m down underneath the most the worst place on earth, that’s a dead sea. Now the lights that you see on the other side, this is already another country, this is George. The border between Israel and Jordan is exactly in the middle of the day, [00:47:32.52] spk_1:
I should have said that Michael is originally from Denmark but lives in Israel and as a tour guide here, so with Andrea Hoffer, founder and ceo of Aha recruiting experts, ha underscore recruiting and Aha recruiting experts dot com. Andrea, thank you so much. Real pleasure. Thank you for doing this on a bus in the Israel desert. [00:47:41.47] spk_2:
It was fun. Thank you in different. [00:48:02.57] spk_0:
Thank you for hanging in with the weird sound this week. I know it’s up and down and it’s crackly. I really wanted to capture the conversation with Andrea, we’re sitting side by side. And how many shows do I get to record in the Israeli desert and and plus you got to learn about the desert from Michael. So thank you. I know it’s [00:48:14.13] spk_1:
weird, it’s weird [00:49:07.45] spk_0:
this week. Thanks very much. Next week. Traven Heckman with his book. Take Heart, Take action. I know last week I said he’d be this week I need an intern if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation, scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.
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[00:01:10.11] spk_0:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of para fia if you touched me with the idea that you missed this week’s show six steps before you hire, hiring is rampant because turnover is rampant, you have work to do internally before you go public with your job posting. Andrea Hoffer from ah ha recruiting experts talks you through her six steps On Tony’s take two lots of opportunities for growth. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Here is six steps before you hire.
It’s a pleasure to welcome to non profit radio Andrea Hoffer, Andrea is a businesswoman over three decades of experience. She’s managed hundreds of employees and knows firsthand the everyday challenges, motivating a team, exceeding customer expectations and meeting business and revenue goals now Andrea is using her experience to help companies recruit hire and onboard new team members successfully without wasting time or money on those poor hires that don’t work out. Her company is a hot recruiting a AJ they are at aha underscore recruiting and at aha recruiting experts dot com Andrea welcome to nonprofit radio [00:02:09.12] spk_2:
hi, Tony, I’m really happy to be here. This is, this is pretty cool, [00:03:41.33] spk_1:
You’re happy in your surprise surprise Andrea and I are on a bus in Israel, we are headed to the dead sea, we met at this course called Israel innovation that she and I are both taking along, with I don’t know seems to be maybe 60 or 70 other people most are not from the US most are from latin America brazil chile Argentina. Uh, but there are also folks from central America Panama, Colombia costa rica. Uh, there’s a woman from Ireland should make sure that we know Ireland is in the house every time we have a meeting. So we’re spending a week together traveling through Israel. Uh, we’ve been in tel Aviv together. Um, today we left tell Aviv came to the negative desert, the desert we visited kibbutz and now we’re on a bus from the kibbutz to the Dead sea where we’re gonna stay overnight in hotels and we are stealing some time on the bus so that Andrea and I can record and I can record because we’re not sure if we’re gonna have time any other time. There might be occasional interruptions, bus noises. And we’re on the bus. Welcome! Welcome. We are talking about the process of discovery, which is the earliest phase, right? This is the earliest phase of [00:03:50.55] spk_2:
Yes, but what you do before you even put a job ad out there, things you need to think about. So that when you do start recruiting, you’re looking for the for the right person. [00:04:04.69] spk_1:
Okay, so we’re in introspective exercise in house were strictly in house Discovery and you call this phase Discovery? [00:04:10.96] spk_2:
Yes. [00:04:11.69] spk_1:
Why is that? [00:04:27.93] spk_2:
Because a lot of it you actually know, but you haven’t thought about it, You haven’t asked yourself those questions that you’re discovering this about yourself, about your organization, about the people that work for you and what you want your work culture to look like, what you want your team to look like. [00:04:34.23] spk_1:
Okay, okay, now one thing I didn’t say in your bio, you are founder and what you what do you call yourself at, recruiting founder and Ceo [00:04:44.99] spk_2:
founder and Ceo [00:04:46.08] spk_1:
founder and Ceo [00:04:47.36] spk_2:
recruiting experts, [00:04:53.26] spk_1:
recruiting experts. Okay, excellent. Alright, so you have a discovery process, You have a process for this discovery? [00:04:57.61] spk_2:
Yes. So we have six questions. Um six overall questions that we typically take our clients through and um and then there are lots of questions underneath it to go to go deeper, but I can [00:05:11.15] spk_1:
to talk to [00:05:11.99] spk_2:
You about the six, [00:05:13.17] spk_1:
the six most important and maybe some of my questions will evoke some of your sub questions etcetera. So, okay, so [00:06:34.06] spk_2:
the first question is really, you know, why does this position exist? What is the main purpose of it? Every position has some reason it exists and it typically in some way will contribute to the bottom line and will contribute to the mission of the company. So it either in some way is gonna save your company money or in some way is going to make the company more money, but it’s usually even bigger than that. And I and I have an example I can share to you. Um, so one example I like to share is an account manager and the job we like to break it into job title, job purpose and then organizational mission. And so the job title of account manager could be the job purpose to ensure client’s expectations are exceeded. Very, you know, it’s very simple. There’s no very high level, no getting this wrong. You know, we tell people don’t worry about getting it right. You’re gonna start, you’re going to tweak it over over time, but just put some thought into it. So you have direction. Um, so the whole purpose of this account manager’s job is to make sure the client’s expectations are exceeded. And then as we go through some of these other questions of these six questions will go a little bit deeper of what that looks like. [00:06:51.07] spk_1:
Let’s let’s reassure folks that this certainly applies to non profits because your work is, your work is mostly you’ve done some work with nonprofits and you have a background in nonprofits. [00:07:07.38] spk_2:
Yes. I started working in higher ed. And so in an arts organization that was all non profit. And then when I started the company, I did a lot of consulting with nonprofits in addition to small business, [00:07:21.93] spk_1:
everything we’re talking about transfers [00:07:23.44] spk_2:
of course, [00:07:25.56] spk_1:
Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. And I’m sure you all know [00:07:32.11] spk_2:
that in many ways, a lot of these questions of why a position exists or what the mission is of an organization. In some ways, it’s even easier for the nonprofits to answer because they talk about their mission so much more than business students often. So it there’s a good connection there [00:08:07.52] spk_1:
and before we go further with, because we’re still at the very high level, why does the position exist? Who should be well, yeah, who should be answering these questions? What’s the structure do we send around a survey to all the employees? Is it only the employees who are going to work with the person whose whose position were filling is leadership involved? Who’s answering this? What are the logistics of getting? [00:08:36.48] spk_2:
A lot of it depends on how large the organization is. We have done this process with just the Ceo or just the leader of if it’s a non profit organization, but typically would recommend getting at least the leadership involved. But if you’re thinking, if you can get more people involved in answering these questions and discussing these questions and get as many people as possible, the better outcomes better you’re going to answer these questions, [00:08:49.58] spk_1:
you like the idea of maybe circulating the questions in advance and then meeting everybody writing their answers that [00:09:55.98] spk_2:
we actually have. Sometimes what we do if the organization agrees and they can get more people involved is we do a sort of sort of what you just said, like a questionnaire like a survey of different than have each person fill it out separately without talking to each other. Even if it’s a small organization, we’re just sitting at the four or five people and then we get them all together and we talk about, well, okay, here are the patterns we saw here, here’s what everybody’s saying and usually about 70 to 80% is going to be similar but then hear the differences and why do you, why do you think this person answered this and this and that person into that? And we talk about the gaps and then a lot of times we’re able to bring it together and and really come to a, I don’t want to say a compromise, but something that is behind a consensus. [00:10:00.90] spk_1:
Um, Alright, so we’re at the level, why does this position even exist? [00:10:22.73] spk_2:
So the next one is, it’s about the outcomes you’re looking for and this drills it down. Um, often two metrics, you know, how do you qualify this and the, and you know, I know you’re doing a planned giving and if you talk about a fundraising, which is kind of an offshoot bringing money in there could be the amount of money, the level of money that this position is responsible for bringing in. It could be how much money you want to bring in for different events or for different milestones or deadlines. [00:10:45.58] spk_1:
What if it’s a program [00:10:47.02] spk_2:
position [00:10:48.14] spk_1:
and they’re gonna be doing service [00:10:50.00] spk_2:
to [00:10:51.61] spk_1:
beneficiary humans in some in some capacity and then would it be like your monthly throughput or a number of client hours you spend? It [00:11:02.97] spk_2:
could be, it could be retention, It could be [00:11:07.06] spk_1:
keeping people in [00:11:13.36] spk_2:
keeping volunteers or keeping how many people attend and and come back each time. You know, anything that shows growth that shows that it’s a contribution to the, to the mission overall. [00:11:22.54] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. Again, that’s why mission can be so [00:11:25.01] spk_2:
valuable. Exactly. [00:11:34.97] spk_1:
Because your, as you said, you know, we’re talking about mission often it’s the core, it’s the reason we exist. It’s protecting the homeless, It’s protecting animals. It’s feeding the hungry education [00:12:01.45] spk_2:
and this is what’s going to attract people. All of this is what is going to attract people to join your team to join your organization and money of course is important to most people they have to be able to live. But and to many people this mission knowing how they contribute to the mission of the organization, whether it’s a business or a non profit is just as important, sometimes more important than than the money factor. And so if you can get this part right and and show that connection, you’re gonna attract more skilled people and more pass. [00:12:24.15] spk_1:
And I see why you say we’re jumping ahead because now we’re kind of bleeding into promoting the promoting position and organization to the, to the and the mission to the right people, but we’re still in the discovery phase, but, but it all into relates of course. Um And so these are, these are valuable introspection questions. Okay. Anything else that you want to say about that? That second one before we? [00:12:47.77] spk_2:
No, I think I think [00:12:49.03] spk_1:
you’ve [00:15:53.09] spk_2:
pretty much got the gist of it there. Um and then the next one is I like to refer to it as success traits. But what are the characteristics? And this is yeah, this is specific to the position because we’re going to talk about the organizational culture in a moment. But you know, what are the specific characteristics, specific traits that you have seen of successful people in this position or similar position in the past? And this takes some thought and and we usually, the way we pull it out of people is by stories. I’m a big fan of thinking back and writing down stories stories of um when you had team members that were successful and lots of different successes. Big successes. But I’m always encouraging people to to track those things to write them down. And then also stories of when people weren’t successful and you start to see patterns of the different traits of of what would make somebody successful in this particular position. Um and I’ll give you an example. We um, you know, we often will recruit for executive assistants and we had a couple of years ago we had a ceo and just can apply non profit for profit. But this this happened to be a for profit company. Um, and she needed an executive assistant and she had already gone through several, nobody was successful with. Um, and one of the things, one of the reasons why she was having trouble finding the right person was her company, um, was very fast pace. It, everybody in the company traveled a lot and the Ceo was absolutely brilliant. She needed somebody who could organize her and be like a million steps ahead of her. And, and used to that chaos and be able to thrive in that chaos. So we knew we were recruiting that those were some of the traits we were looking for. So we had lots of amazing executive assistant candidates who had great skills. But as soon as we talked to them and learned, you know, that they’ve been an executive system, say in a large organization for yes, a very busy, you know, senior executive, but it was still structured, they were still useful. A lot of structure. We knew they weren’t going to be a good fit. So we knew what types of success traits to, to look for and, and then, you know, we take that and we drill it down to a couple of sentences so that it really jumps out at the right person when we’re going to look for someone. And so that it’s very clear to us for more interview, was [00:15:53.54] spk_1:
there any chance that you should have been recruiting for a new Ceo, in that, in that company? [00:16:18.50] spk_2:
Actually there are lots of businesses and even non profit organizations that do function in that way. There’s still some structure, there’s still productivity. But because of the nature of what they do there is this daily chaos. You just have to find the right way to say. And and it was also where they were in their history as a, as a company to with the growth. [00:18:29.44] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications their e newsletter this week. What a year in review can do for you. And they talk about the value of a year in review article or blog post that you write. They say that it usually only requires a light lift because you just need to spend time summarizing stuff that you’ve been writing all year long and of course you’re gonna file focus on milestones, you know, main achievements, accomplishments. But they also suggest including challenges, especially if you overcame them successfully. Because that adds some authenticity. Right? And they suggest that a year in review can help you, of course, you know, showcase your results. You just talked about, you know, accomplishments, achievements, you can acknowledge your key audiences, supporters, loyal customers, donors, your, your beneficiaries, any any parts of your year in review that you can work these folks in all the better boost morale. Uh, it’s often easy to forget all the things that you did achieve over the year at the end of the, at the end of the year because it’s so busy. So this can help refresh recollections about the good things that that happened through the year. Um, so those are some ideas that they have around your year in review piece. You can get their e newsletter, which is on message at turn hyphen two dot c o turn to communications. Your story is their mission Now back to six steps before you hire. We [00:18:29.70] spk_1:
Have Questions 4, 5 and six. [00:18:31.19] spk_2:
Yes. I’m trying to make sure. I don’t forget any [00:18:33.98] spk_1:
here. You [00:20:15.83] spk_2:
know, I think this is good and let me just go back to my thing here. So the, so we talked about success trades which are specific to the position, but then you have your core values that are specific to the overall organ. So everyone in the organization, no matter what position they have lived by. These core values and I call them, um, kind of your default zone, your guiding principles. And if you’re done right, if they’re really alive in your organization, then you know that no matter what decisions being made by anybody in the organization that there they’ll be making a decision the way you around those values, the way they act. And so for example, one of our core values at aha is think like a detective. So we’re often kind of putting our detective hat on and often the core values do start to come from what’s important to the ceo to the person who’s running the company or restart the company but you want to make sure that they’re also important to everybody in the organization that they like. It they they’re successful by it there it’s natural for them. So when when we’re recruiting for our company we’re looking for people who are curious Think outside the box who put their detective hat on and don’t just accept, you know you have to do things 123 but there’s gotta be another way to do it better. Um And so it comes up in our meetings a lot. You know when somebody says they have a challenge, did you put your detective hat on? How you know how else can we? So that’s one of our core values [00:20:28.18] spk_1:
since we’re in the middle here were three out of six I want to mention. Andrew you don’t have in your Andrea you don’t have in your bio that you’re the author of. Higher. [00:20:38.84] spk_2:
Higher. [00:21:01.30] spk_1:
Unless I I don’t I don’t I didn’t deliberately cut it out of your cut it out of your bio. No look there’s I’m showing her the bio bio on her phone which does not mention that she is the author of the book. It says about the author it’s a piece of a larger pr alright still. Okay well she’s she’s the author of the book. Higher. Higher. H. I. R. E. H. I. G. H. T. R. Which you can get on amazon. Higher. [00:21:10.17] spk_2:
Higher and and in the book it’s a very practical guide and it does walk through these six questions and a lot more but it goes into more detail about it and [00:21:29.55] spk_1:
we can’t do everything the surface, we can’t dive deep. Just you know, if this intrigues you, you got to get the book, that’s the only way to get the full depth. Alright. Number four question four discovery process. [00:22:21.29] spk_2:
So this is what everybody already thinks they know right when when you’re thinking about, I got to fill a job. I always say employers say okay they have to have this many years of experience in this particular industry and they’ve had to have You know, no this specific software and have this education and all of these skills and when I go online and I look at job as it’s usually pages and pages of the experience and skills that they want as can be a really big mistake. So what I recommend in this area is just narrow it down to the 4-6 skills or experience that you absolutely need for the job and think about [00:22:27.56] spk_1:
Like 13 Bullets one [00:22:33.38] spk_2:
job. I just [00:22:36.65] spk_1:
I get bored. [00:22:40.48] spk_2:
Most candidates look at it. I [00:22:44.63] spk_1:
can’t possibly sometimes I wonder if there’s anybody who could really creating such an ideal that I think there may be scaring candidates away. They’re intimidated by the prospect of the requirements of the [00:23:10.31] spk_2:
job. And the interesting thing is there have been studies done between men and women and men typically, Even if they can only do three out of the 15 bullets on the list will apply, but women, if they can do 14 out of 15 on average will not apply. So you end up [00:23:22.81] spk_1:
cutting out, you [00:24:05.01] spk_2:
know, a big part of the population. Um, so you know, we typically recommend between four and six of the most important, think about what you’re set up to train for. So you know, if you can bring someone on who has the right attitude, you know, they’re trainable, make sure you can train them or you have something, some resources to train them. Um, and then that opens the field for you and, and people love training and professional development. That’s one of the big things. Again, it’s are always asking about what, how am I gonna get growth from this? How is this going to take me to the next level? So that’s an amazing thing to offer somebody [00:24:08.81] spk_1:
training. Professional development is important even more. So maybe now in the post pandemic economy, they want candidates want to know that the company, the organization is going to invest in their growth, [00:24:24.07] spk_2:
that they’re going to invest in the growth, that there’s opportunity to move up. But even if there is an opportunity to move up because sometimes certain organizations just, it just doesn’t have, that is their opportunity to learn something new. There are lots of ways to keep people happen about what they’re doing and wanting to stick, stick around even if it’s not a huge bump in pay and a huge title. That’s not always what’s most important to [00:24:54.78] spk_1:
people? What do we have next? [00:26:14.38] spk_2:
Okay, let’s see. Did we go? We went through five already, Right. But we went through four. Okay. We talked about results. So what, why do people stay at your organization and why do they leave that often? We don’t even ask ourselves that. And that was probably a question for, for your current team. You know, what, what is it that they really enjoy about working there? Is it the mission, is it that you’re, you do a lot of things together as a team. Is it the pay, is it the professional development? There could be lots of different things sometimes, which is very big. Now it’s the flexibility, you know, if they’re they can come in at different hours, um, or you know, is there a work from home? Is there a hybrid? That’s of course very big right now. What is it that keeps them and what is it that drives them away? And that often could be like, you know, you you made a comment when I I talked about that example of this Ceo and the kind of the chaos, some people thrive in that by your comment. It sounds like that would probably drive you away. Um, so be very clear about what your environments like and put it all out there sometimes. Um People will ask me, well shouldn’t I make it sound really great? Only if it’s true, Be authentic and find out what is true. [00:26:23.97] spk_1:
Otherwise you’re misleading the candidates. [00:26:25.53] spk_2:
Exactly. It’s [00:26:26.39] spk_1:
a chaotic environment and a lot of flexibility is needed and it’s hard to work through a weekly plan that you might [00:26:34.83] spk_2:
put put [00:27:13.69] spk_1:
together on monday or the friday before. Uh then then reveal that because the person is gonna leave in a couple of months when they realize that it’s not, it’s not the predictable week after week pattern that you made it sound like that. You just told me out explicitly that it is all right. So if we’re at why do people, why do people stay and why do people leave? Uh look people could be leaving because of leadership, difficult leadership, but now we’re having leadership. Answer the answer the survey uh here’s where the leaders answers the C suite answers. They diverge from the and who in the C suite is gonna be willing to admit that they are the reason or contributing to the reason that people leave. [00:28:39.25] spk_2:
You would be surprised that I have met a lot of leaders over the years, both in non profit and for profit. And I have met leaders who who recognize where their challenges are. And sometimes they’ll say I need to hire somebody to fill that gap for me. Actually met with a later a couple weeks ago who said that, he said you know what I know I’m not good at managing people like keeping the team motivated that it um checking in with them and making sure they’re supported so I need to hire somebody to help me with that or that order kind of fill that gap. So a lot of them will especially now because more important because we as a society after the pandemic are demanding more of that you know to be recognized to be respected too leaders who are going to contribute to our growth. So I think that more and more leaders are even if they have to be banged on the head a little bit with it um I think they’re recognizing the importance of that and that they need to do that they want to retain, [00:28:42.12] spk_1:
okay you’re finding that people are realistic [00:28:46.70] spk_2:
about it couldn’t be [00:29:06.07] spk_1:
careful, you should watch your hair on your left side too. So that was Andrea Andrea I’ve been calling you for half a week now and recording and I keep saying Andrea Andrea touching her mike but we’re on the fly here that’s what that’s what that noise in the middle of anything else went through everything. That’s a very good one why why people stay and why people [00:30:42.21] spk_2:
leave, you could spend a lot of time on that. It was so funny I actually I met with often I will run masterminds or be in masterminds with other organizational leaders and there was one woman who um her business is growing very quickly and she said I’m so overwhelmed and like what are you overwhelmed with? She said I’m overwhelmed with the employee and gauge. I feel like there’s so much I need to do to show my employees I care and to keep them happy and successful and I’ve been told like you know there’s so much out there and it’s just there’s so much more because that we’re hearing now. So I was like you don’t have to do everything right away. Just check in with your team regularly. That’s probably the most important thing is checking in, see how you can help them and make sure they know you’re being authentic. You’re being sincere. You truly want to hear if there’s a challenge which this leader is naturally empathetic. So I said really you just need to be you. She had a counseling background but I told her to just start with three things that [00:30:47.38] spk_3:
we are [00:30:48.36] spk_1:
now we’re gonna pause while we have an introduction explanation. [00:31:27.55] spk_3:
Maybe we should include this. People have problems with breathing. They come to because the air here is very very dry and it’s very good for people who have problems breathing and lungs problems. Now the dead sea is also part of I would say medical tourism and now that we are starting to go down to the dead sea A lot is like 4, 500 m above sea level. The dead sea is 425 m below sea level. So we’re going out 800 m down. [00:31:39.92] spk_1:
Alright. So there’s a little bit about the dead sea and how far below sea level it is courtesy of our guide for the week. Is Michael from Denmark. [00:33:07.18] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. We are at the beginning of december which of course is most likely a very important month for you regardless of how you perform, how your organization comes out tomorrow is another opportunity to grow. So I’m urging you to shed Let go how it goes today. This week you have another day tomorrow, you have another week and you have the one after. So regardless of how you and your nonprofit do even this year 2023 is another opportunity Full of 365 days. If you do great this year. 2022, fantastic. If you don’t, 2023 is another new full year. Your past doesn’t define your future and you have many opportunities to grow each day, week, month year. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for six steps before you hire with Andrea hoffer. [00:33:26.29] spk_1:
We were talking about the reasons why people leave the reasons why people stay and I was saying that I think that’s valuable introspection. Even apart from a hiring process, this is valuable, valuable to think about these things. Is there anything more that you want to add on? [00:35:51.46] spk_2:
No, not onto that. And you know I agree it is it is very important and you know sometimes we do all this work with clients and to find them the best candidate or what we think is the best candidate. And what we have learned over the years is that we also need to do work with the employers on how to set the new higher up for success and and keep them happy and help them with success on ongoing because we’re seeing, we started doing a survey of our people. We placed last year in 2021 we placed 100 and 65 people and we have been reaching out to them At different points like 30 days in 60 days and 90 a year to find out. Did they feel like the recruitment process was professional? Was it a good representation of where they were going? And then what was, you know, what is it like at the company And what we’re hearing? A lot of is I wasn’t really, I’m generalizing here but I wasn’t really set up for success. I wasn’t given the resources I needed to be successful or sometimes it wasn’t as described, which means we we didn’t get the correct information from from the employer because what what also seems to happen sometimes is the employer things change quickly in organizations and sometimes they change the position so they might not change position title, but then they changed the expectations around the position and that’s not what was quote sold to the candidates. So if and sometimes it happens and it’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how the organization, the direction is moving. And I always recommend just just be up with with your new hire and talk to them and figure out is this the right fit for you? And how can we work with you? So that it can be the right fit and maybe there’s somebody else in the organization where it’s a better fit and you can put this person in a position that will work for them, [00:35:53.34] spk_1:
but at least be upfront and talking about these things. So we kind of melded a couple of these together. So why don’t you just read through one through six? So it’s clear that we’ve covered everything. [00:36:20.94] spk_2:
Okay, So the first one is why does the position exist next? Or what are the results or outcomes needed from this position? And I think we just grazed over that one. And one of the things I do want to mention that I didn’t mention earlier related to that question is I’m a big fan of, [00:36:31.86] spk_1:
I even asked you if there were more [00:37:51.80] spk_2:
my brain. Okay, so I’m a big fan of result oriented job descriptions and and that means, you know, writing the job description for the results that you’re looking for. So I think this question is really important and sometimes you can get a really great candidate from a different industry who has accomplished something very close to what you’re looking to accomplish from this position. So, so the more clear on what you’re looking for, what, you know what we always ask, what will give this person a great performance evaluation in 90 days, What would they have accomplished for you to say A plus for them in the 1st 90 days and, and and then different segments of, you know, the next time line, so that I just wanted to make sure I cover that. So the next question is, um what skills and experience are needed to do this job successfully? What is specific traits, we call them success traits or attributes that make a person successful in this position. What are the specific you’re set fit in your organizational culture? We’re talking about core values. And then lastly, um why did team members stay with you? And why did they leave [00:38:34.50] spk_1:
question. What about um salary? Now we’re now we’re jumping outside of discovery. But you and I talked earlier when we were getting to know each other about salary range disclosures, job descriptions, which is becoming so much more important. New york state just passed a law that requires it. Um I thought I had seen that in Oregon too. I might be mistaken about that. You hadn’t heard of that one, but at least we know new york state has, has passed that law and other states are considering it. And just it’s just, it’s a movement apart from whether it’s legal or not legally required [00:38:39.84] spk_2:
or not right [00:38:41.58] spk_1:
share your opinion on disclosing salary or arrange a description. [00:39:28.85] spk_2:
It’s always been a best practice. And now in many states, like you mentioned tony it’s a law. Um, and I think at some point it will probably be a law and in just about all states. The reason for it, there’s, there’s several reasons, but one of the main reasons that’s become a law in a lot of states is because in the past, um, there’s been a lot of bias and discrimination when it comes to pay. When you think about how women have been paid or different cultural groups or background? Exactly. And so if you are not transparent about your salary and you then, because I hear this a lot from employers, well, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m going to pay. We’ll see what the person made before. Well, all that’s doing is contributing to the bad uneven inequitable from the perpetuating. Thank [00:39:49.71] spk_1:
you. [00:40:38.04] spk_2:
Right. So what you need to do is think about What can you pay, what do you think the return is for this position that your organization can afford. Um, and what is it worth to the value that’s going to be contributed and and create a range there and don’t make the range 100,000. I usually recommend. I see sometimes do. Exactly. I usually recommend, you know maybe a $10,000 range, maybe a $20,000 range. Um not much more than that. And and you can decide based on what what that person you’re hiring is going to bring, how much training you need to give them. I’m up to speed. Um The other thing is it just waste your time if you’re not transparent [00:40:43.08] spk_1:
upfront, [00:40:43.84] spk_2:
it wastes the jobseeker’s time and it wastes your time because everybody [00:40:49.11] spk_1:
well [00:40:57.37] spk_2:
look at the job and have different thoughts on what it’s going to pay. So I may apply for the job Thinking that it’s going to pay 100,000 and you’re only planning to pay 40,000. And if we don’t get to that until the third interview, well we’ve wasted so much time and it just frustrates both of us so that no [00:41:13.74] spk_1:
candidate is going to ask about salary in the first interview. Maybe not even in a second if they know there’s another coming [00:41:24.16] spk_2:
and less candidates are going to apply for your job if they don’t know what because they’re afraid they’re gonna waste their time. And they often feel like [00:41:31.35] spk_1:
because [00:41:31.87] spk_2:
you’re not being transparent with that you might not be transparent with other things as well, so you might not be the right employer for [00:41:51.70] spk_1:
them. Um And just let’s let’s kind of wrap up with what you are seeing in our sort of trend one or two things that you, you want folks to know about, you know, in this post pandemic hiring environment that we find ourselves, [00:42:19.05] spk_2:
People are looking for their passion, their looking for, not just the passion connected to the mission that the company that that is a big part of it, but they’re looking for a place they can call home, they’re looking for flexibility. They’re looking for an environment that they’re happy to go to work and it doesn’t matter the [00:42:26.12] spk_1:
level of [00:44:01.07] spk_2:
the position. Um Pay is also important. They want to be paid what they feel their worth. And because pay, we’re seeing a big trend and increase of pay. Um uh you know, jobs that have paid one amount for decades are now have, have, we’ve seen large jumps in them. Um but then I’ve seen where candidates have been willing to take a pay cut if it means they could work from home or they could have more flexibility or it’s something that they truly believe in. And I have seen a great trend of candidates of job seekers who have left or actually even gotten laid off during the pandemic from high paying, high pressure jobs that are now saying they want a job in a nonprofit in something that they truly believe in. And they usually have a specific type of nonprofit or type of mission that they have in mind because it’s something important to them specifically. And I’m not saying that there isn’t anyone, but for them individually. And I think the pandemic has really, it’s created this thing in all of us where life short, right? Like it. I want to just do something I want to be contributing in a way that that works for me on both my time and what, what’s important to me. And I think that’s important as you go out and recruit people and as you work with people as well to keep that in mind, [00:44:10.04] spk_1:
a lot of us have heard from [00:44:11.95] spk_2:
people who want [00:44:50.27] spk_1:
to want to now give back. That was even pre pandemic. But I think the pandemic accelerated it being more reflective about their career because of the pandemic people question their own mortality. And in the early days of the pandemic, we didn’t know if, if you were 30 if they could kill you or if you were 75 if it could kill you or or if one was a greater risk than the other. We didn’t know, People were really questioning a lot of things in life and obviously career is enormous. So, um, you know, we, we see so much about nomads, digital nomads traveling the US traveling the world and moving and working from a completely different time zones and completely different atmospheres because they want to have a richer life, but they still need to make some money. So they’re happy to work from wherever, if you’ll allow [00:45:37.45] spk_2:
it. And if the type of position you have available, if you’re able to think maybe a little outside the box and make it either a hybrid or remove or add some of that flexibility in that is so important to people now and and they because of the pandemic where they saw companies and organizations, they will take, [00:45:39.73] spk_1:
oh [00:45:40.02] spk_2:
no, we don’t do that here as an answer. Then there’s then there’s, you know, then that’s not for me. Plus [00:45:45.80] spk_1:
as [00:45:59.01] spk_2:
things started to let up just a little bit during the pandemic was still pretty early on. The question I got over and over again from candidates was what will happen um with this position if if we end up having to shut down again, if we have another pandemic and I haven’t been hearing as much of the past year, but that first year or heard a lot because they do not want to be laid off again, you know, they wanted. So you might want to think about that as well. It’s not just because they want the flexibility. They also want that security that they know if a pandemic hits again, they’ll still be able to make a living. [00:46:28.27] spk_1:
Okay? We’re in the we’re in the Israeli desert Negev were descending as you [00:47:00.14] spk_3:
heard going 425 m down underneath the most the worst place on earth, that’s a dead sea. Now the lights that you see on the other side, this is already another country, this is George. The border between Israel and Jordan is exactly in the middle of the day, [00:47:32.52] spk_1:
I should have said that Michael is originally from Denmark but lives in Israel and as a tour guide here, so with Andrea Hoffer, founder and ceo of Aha recruiting experts, ha underscore recruiting and Aha recruiting experts dot com. Andrea, thank you so much. Real pleasure. Thank you for doing this on a bus in the Israel desert. [00:47:41.47] spk_2:
It was fun. Thank you in different. [00:48:02.57] spk_0:
Thank you for hanging in with the weird sound this week. I know it’s up and down and it’s crackly. I really wanted to capture the conversation with Andrea, we’re sitting side by side. And how many shows do I get to record in the Israeli desert and and plus you got to learn about the desert from Michael. So thank you. I know it’s [00:48:14.13] spk_1:
weird, it’s weird [00:49:07.45] spk_0:
this week. Thanks very much. Next week. Traven Heckman with his book. Take Heart, Take action. I know last week I said he’d be this week I need an intern if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation, scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.
