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Nonprofit Radio for March 24, 2017: Fire Up Your Board Fundraising

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Gail Perry: Fire Up Your Board Fundraising

Consultant and author Gail Perry will reveal proven techniques to motivate your board to step-up to their fundraising responsibilities. Her book is “Fired Up Fundraising.” (Originally aired 11/12/10. And board fundraising is still an issue.)

 

 


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Oh, hi there. Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week, sean congo. He e mailed me. I work in the innovation space and i find your non-profit radio podcast super relevant to what i do loved twenty seventeen legal tips episode thank you twenty seventeen legal tips episode that was aaron bradrick on january sixth. Jean takagi blew it. I invited him, but he couldn’t pull it together, so he had someone from his office do it. I’m not sure if it’s drugs or alcohol, it might be i don’t know. Maybe it is you tell me it might be drugs or alcohol. I just don’t know. Sean continues, i just put an awesome review and rating on itunes and just wanted to pass on the love, keep doing your thing and inspiring us to crush it. Well, it’s actually be great is what i encourage at the end of encourage it’s more than just an encouragement and explicit demand. Be great. So it’s not quite crush it. But it’s it’s i think crushing it is. Ah, is lesser than be great any case, shawn still grateful whether it’s crushing it or be great. Thanks for loving non-profit radio. Thank you for the itunes raid in review. Um, and you can find us on itunes at non-profit radio dot net. Just saying, i don’t know is that inappropriate self promotion? I don’t know you tell me, he’s shaun congo neo-sage a w n k a n ew ngo and he’s at sean congo dot com sean, thank you so much for the non-profit radio love. Congratulations on being this week’s listener of the week and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get hit with ridiculous oh, gangly own itis if you got me nervous with the idea that you missed today’s, show, fire up your board fund-raising consultant and author gail perry will reveal proven techniques to motivate your board to step up to their fund-raising responsibilities. Her book is fired-up fund-raising and that originally aired november twelfth, twenty ten this show’s been around a long time, you know, we’re coming up on seventh anniversary in july every every july is another fifty shows, so in november two thousand ten, we were about joy was never remember four months old. Is that right? Yes, four months old. So the quality of my questioning may not be up to what you’re accustomed to in these days, but the information still very relevant board fund-raising still very, very much an issue seven years later, and we didn’t only start talking about it in two thousand ten on tony steak, too. Naps and that’s right naps two weeks in a row are you gonna give me trouble with that? We’re about it off my back with the naps responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here is gail perry on firing up your board fund-raising from november two thousand ten, fire up your board fund-raising i’ll be joined by gail perry. Gale is a consultant and the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action. Her book title pretty much says it all, she’s going to share proven techniques to motivate your board to step up to their fund-raising responsibilities gayle’s book is published by wiley, and it is available on amazon gail’s. With us for the hour i’m joined now by the president of gale perry associates, gail perry is a consultant and author. As i said earlier, her book is fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action, published by wiley, available on amazon dot com. Gail is an international speaker on this subject, and she leads her own has led her own consulting firm for over fourteen years. I’m very glad that gale’s practice brings her to the show today. She’s joining us from north carolina? Welcome, gail. How you doing? I’m doing well. Welcome. Welcome to the show. Pleasure to have you. Yeah. Why’s fund-raising important for board members. Well, actually, they they actually own for our big fun for it. And many say that they have a very bilich boardmember not agree with gail. I’m gonna interrupt you. I know you’re on your own. A vonage connection, i think. Is that you? Yeah. And it’s breaking up a little bit. Do you have another phone that you can call on and i will do a little a little song and dance while you call him. Okay. Please do this’s. Tony martignetti let me. Okay, i was all set for my song and dance like this, she cuts me off. We’re just having a little technical problem with trying to get a good connection from gail galley there matter-ness it sounds better. One we want to continue with the question why? And you cut me? I didn’t get to do my song and dance. You believe this? Alright, maybe. Maybe later notion. Uh, gail, you still there? There, gail that’s. Beautiful. All right. You know, this is live radio because this wouldn’t happen. Otherwise we have gale back, but we’re going to take this break. I’ll be joined by gail perry after this break. Please stay with me. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent dahna. I’m joined now by gail perry. Our subject is fired-up you’re bored fund-raising gail, you’re with us, right? Okay, excellent, much, much better and let’s go to that first question. Why is fund-raising important for board members? Gale? Well, boardmember have such a responsibility to make sure the organization is successful, but the problem is that many organs many boardmember zehr not enlisted a recruited on dh, told when they’re recruited that theirjob fund-raising so at the outset, they should be told they should be told, and it doesn’t happen. I think that non-profits or embarrassed to ask him or afraid to bring it up, and i think it backfired terribly because then the staff wants the board to helping fund-raising in the board says what? What do you what do you know? What about yes, you know, the chronicle of philanthropy just yesterday in the online edition had an article about the frustrations among non-profits that board members don’t step up to this important obligation. And on the side bar there were four articles going back to i think nineteen, ninety seven since then, and all of them had the headline’s something like non-profit boardmember sze don’t step up. To their responsibilities, and here was basically that four or five maybe articles since i think nineteen, ninety seven, i know this is an enormous area of frustration for non-profits yeah, it is, but the problem is that i think i think non-profits bear a lot of the blame because i think i think, frankly, i think their expectations are way too high. You can’t expect untrained volunteers to be successful in fund-raising when they’ve never done it before and they may not have the personality for it, frankly, i don’t want on that boardmember soliciting because they wouldn’t be good at it. You probably have to clean up. Okay, we’re gonna talk about that later on. But what other roles there are around fund-raising besides soliciting, but so you think you think the responsibility lies with the non-profit wants a little more about that? Yeah, there’s a there’s, a sinus flandez says, we all get the boards we deserve on that means that the more time and energy you spend on your board them or you get out of him, and i think that non-profit leaders need to take take a leadership role with their board and give them training and talkto them about expectations and talk to them about what it is that the job of the board members is to do because somebody boardmember don’t know, and i’m frankly, a frankly, i think a lot of people who serve on board are very well meaning people, and they want to do a good job, but you got to tell him what you need. Yeah, that’s always that’s always the case, they’re passionate about the mission, and i know part of your messages toe unleash that passion, we’ll get to that they’re always passionate about, otherwise they would have turned you down, you know, they care, but you gotta figure out a way to make it easy for him and make it fundez form and what are some of the challenges that that are either organizational or personal to board members? Well, you know, the one thing they don’t know anything about fund-raising they be racking, i think it’s unreasonable to assume that somebody can do a great job when they when they’re totally untrue ride and i’m a battle that weary, hardened veteran of twenty five years and fund-raising and i’m very comfortable with that i got his sessions, like write articles in conferences understand the techniques in the technology, so one of the rules is they don’t understand it at all. I think four members think that fund-raising is all about asking for money, and we all know that that’s not particularly good fund-raising because good fund-raising is much more of a cultivation process in the relationship driven process, but if boardmember think it’s all about asking and it’s all about money, then they freeze, you know, from from my perspective, i think fund-raising is about changing the world and helping children and helping the environment and all the things that you’re raising money for, and the board members get stuck in this mythology of what they think fund-raising years, and they make it into this horrible yucky, embarrassing, um, tacky, poor manners, you know, that they made it back-up also its myths about it, but when you do it right, it’s, a really joyful experience and your matching donors with causes that mythology often is carried on by the organization. Yeah, you know, i think i think i think fundrasing got a bad rap all around because a lot of people are nervous about it. And they don’t they don’t understand it. They don’t know how to do it well. And and it does take a special skill set really does. What about the the meetings that board members are attending and they’d be used for your left looking she’s laughing at me on my own show? You believe this? I know you. I know you’re laughing, but i’m a delight. Board meetings don’t think that board meetings are boring, and i think the board members would tell you that they’re boring and i would say to you, if you have boring meetings, what kind of a board? And you gonna have a board board? Uh, and if you have a board board, i don’t think they’re going to take action and fundrasing so it’s very important that we make boardmember into a cheerleading session and a and a exciting motivational experience now, that’s interesting. Sometimes, you know, something called a cheerleading session is used pejoratively, but obviously you don’t mean that. How would you turn boardmember into a cheerleading session? Well, you know, i think it’s gotta have some excitement in passion to it. I think the leadership has got to be passionate and excited? I think you’ve got to talk about important issues. You’ve got a door way. Shit boardmember time with crap. Excuse me. You know, um thank you. You bring in testimonials from people who who, uh, who are being helped by your organization. I mean, just last night i was doing aboard retreat with our local women’s center, and i asked the director to tell us a story of something that had touched her heart recently. And she said she told the story of this woman who had two children, preschool children, small ones. Her husband lost his job and he abandoned the family. And she was that her last resort. She didn’t know what to do. She was going to get evicted from her apartment. She has no money. She had nothing. Two small children had never worked outside the home. And when gene, the director of the women’s center, told her that that the women’s center could help her with her rent for a couple months so she got herself established. The lady burst into tears and gene in telling the story. Last night she cried, had a blower nose and and you know, it was in front. Of all the board members and the board members really got it about how important their work. Wass and it was a very touching and motivational. It was probably the most touching moment i experienced all weekend work. Yeah. That’s. An outstanding story. And in a in a board meeting. And what was the reaction to board members? Could you see any? Oh, yeah. Physical reaction. Thank you, teo. I think they feel that the energy. So i think a lot about energy. I think that energy probably maybe is the basis of all this stuff. Let’s talk a little more about that because you think about it a lot. What do you mean about energy? You know, do you let me give you a little example? Do you have a friend whose energy is like the cold, clammy kitchen sink? You know what has been friday night with them? Right? But do you have a friend whose energies like the warm sunshine and you want to spend time with them? And one of my great fund-raising motta’s is winding down. Throw a party because what if you could make what you’re doing fun? You would trap people, teo and it board meetings air fun. If the board members enjoy getting together, if, um, if they if you could make your boar biddies into a party and let people enjoy themselves, you attract more people to your cause. And if you’re having a fund-raising of yet turned that into a party and you will bring me more money. There’s a whole lot of this attitude about, uh, being gregarious and being i mean, you changed the world by expanding your energy and influencing other people. And if boardmember zehr embarrassed about fund-raising and embarrassed about, quote, hitting up somebody or something, their energy is going to be like the clothes cold, clammy kitchen sink. So i gotta get boardmember away from their myths about fund-raising being yucky and get him pointed toward maybe friendraising so they could be excited about what they’re doing and really inspired about the work. And and there are other activities which we’ll talk about that that are appropriate around fund-raising. It’s interesting that the act of fund-raising can be seen as yucky and clammy and dirty and embarrassing and begging, even which is a very debased form of human action or the same action at same activity fund-raising can be seen is one of the most powerful shining examples of compassion and human. Yes, i’m talking with gail perry she’s, a consultant and author of the president of gale perry associates, and her book is fired-up fund-raising turn board passion into action. Gail, aside from the’s, very poignant testimonials at meetings, how else can can we in live in this thiss passion? Well, i like, i’d like to ask for members by the care. What do you mean? Just go around the table and ask or, you mean, write it out? How? Well, how logistically detail? How would we do that? Development director for hospice tried the question with her group this way, she said to our board members, and they were very stiff bunch of noone who didn’t like they thought their job is to manage money, not to raise it, you know, that kind of people, and she went around the table and she said, tell me what? Legacy you’d like to leave from serving on sport, right? They went around the table. Whoa. And he said you would have thought i’d open the floodgates. She said she had never seen such emotion in such passion in these people and she said she changed way have a meeting she had had with these people in three years in a again a very telling story. Gale, we actually we have a call and i haven’t even said the number. Look at this. If you’d like to talk to gail are calling number is eight. Seven seven for eight xero for one, two zero, eight, seven, seven. Forty xero for one to zero and we have a caller. What is your name, please? Hi. My name is marion marion. Hi. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. What’s. Your question for gail might. My question is, what are boardmember sze? We’ve made the mistake. Scale is already, uh, discussed in terms of we didn’t pre educate them about the fund-raising aspect. I guess going forward, you know, live and learn. How do we go forward in picking board members? How do we screen them and educate them before we picked them that this is going to be part of their job duty. And also does she have any ideas in terms of resources that we could use to get people over this hump of feeling like fund-raising is yucky because i agree with friendraising legally, maybe the goal is to ask those friends for money, and how do we educate our board members appropriately? Barry and i’m going to ask youto take the answer off off off line on the air because you’re breaking up a little bit, but we have your questions. Thank you very much for calling again the number the number to call is eight seven seven for eight xero for one to xero gale, what about the marin’s? First question on on screening board members? Well, let me give you an example. I’m chair of the board governance committee for statewide boarding here in north carolina, and we were literally a fund-raising board and we have changed our mission to write be much more specific about fund-raising and it’s, my job to be the rude i’m sorry, it’s, my job to be in charge of the boardmember recruitment process, not surprised, and so we’ve had people in action all over the state all year and, you know, feel feeling and potential boardmember and i have gotten off the phone with thes women that we’re enlisting, and i said, listen, i just want to go over with you, the expectations, and i don’t you to be surprised i said the really number one job of boardmember xyz to be leaders in their local fund-raising event in their local towns and do you have any problem with calling people for sponsorships and blah, blah, blah? And they’re very explicit to him, and they usually say, no, i’m happy to do that, and then i say and, you know, i just want to let you know that most of the board members almost all of us are contributing at the thousand dollar level is trailblazers and out of what be surprised about that either? And do you think that’s, something you could consider and the people i talked to said, yeah, i think i can consider that so it’s been it’s been amazing? That has been so easy for me to talk about it because it can be embarrassing, but somehow i’m not the person who enlisted them. I’m sort of like the policeman to screen them before they come on the board because they want to be accepted into this group of very high powered women, and they don’t want any surprises, and so they’re pretty grateful for the for the conversation with me, and they’re really what about putting these expectations in writing nothing that’s very helpful. So after you’ve gotten their verbal but there’s, nothing there a lot of organizations that have lots of written expectations that board members have signed and nothing happened. Yeah, well, ok, of course, that the writings need to be enforced mohr essential than the riding it out. Okay, think about it because you gotta oddball people or get him on the phone and very direct people don’t read stuff anyway, right? Well, but so are you suggesting a conversation and then something in writing? Onda writing, of course, needs to be enforced. People don’t enforce stuff going just although i do know a couple of boards that they give their boardmember xero sort of a report card at there place every board meeting about where they stand on their commitment. Yeah, well, i think we’re going to talk later. That’s wonderful! We’ll talk later and we’ll talk later in the hour about self assessment in just a minute, we have left before a break. Gale, can you share with our caller the sum of the second question cem resource is for making fund-raising more appealing. Yeah, and if i could suggest a my website gai o perry dot com, i have a ton of articles, uninspiring board members and lots of different techniques in conversations to stage with them to help them change their attitude about fund-raising i think you need to have a frank fear of convert xero fund-raising ization, um, and that i think that’s very healthy and what you call it cleansing moment, so let him throw up about it. Uh, and then you’ve gotta have a conversation about abundance versus scarcity and about the importance of optimism and the connection to their passion and then friend making such a big deal because, frankly, i held my speak all over the country on this, and i’ll tell everybody i would rather have a friend to my cause than a donor. Excellent gail, we’re going to take a break. Those resources are available at gail perry dot. Com and you’ll also find a link to those resources, which are which are excellent. I was through them on my block it mpg a dv dot com under the show today’s show post we’re going to take a break after the rake. Of course, gail parry stays with us and hope you do too more with gail perry is coming up first. Pursuant, they have the replay of the break through fund-raising webinar it is up and it’s pursuing so you know that it is free if you want to break through two extraordinary fund-raising this is going to help you out, you’ll figure out the invisible obstacles that are holding you back. Affiliates here is another resource you can take advantage of if you couldn’t make the live webinar catch it now sometimes the timing doesn’t work out for our affiliates, but now you get the archive version it’s up it’s at pursuing dot com click resource is than webinars couldn’t be simpler. We’ll be spelling spelling bees for millennial fund-raising how about a game show in a local place as a fundraiser? That’s what these bees are spelling bee concert stand up comedy live music, dancing check out their video it’s that we b e spelling dot com very cool events now time for tony’s take two. I love naps and get off my back about it. Yes, it’s two weeks in a row, back off, it’s my show i’ll do whatever the hell i want and i’m a fan of napping you only need research says about twenty minutes toe work more efficiently for the rest of your workday so give in to that post lunch slump. Naps are encouraged all over the world and my video has links to research the twenty minute research. And i’ve got a link to worldwide nap culture and also a link to a video that i did on minute sweets when i was at the d f w airport, where i wake up from an in sweet nap and i review that service minute sweets at airports, they’re they’re cool. I got a link to that also, the video is at tony martignetti dot com all about naps gotta love him. That is tony steak too live listen, love goes out were pre recorded but the love goes out on the day that the show is live then not. Now i have love, but it’s got going out now it goes out. Then this day, today in the future, the live love, everybody who’s throughout the world. We know they’re in asia. We know we got asia. Ah, we know we got california. We know you got new york, new york, they’ve been. You’ve been very consistent. New york, new york, new bern, north carolina consistent so the love goes out to the live listeners and quick on the heels of the podcast pleasantries to the over twelve thousand listening in the time shift very, very glad that you are with us. That’s the vast majority of our listening audience pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections got to do him am fm affiliate stations throughout the country later station know that will be be glad i get occasional feedback, but not too much from our am and fm stations. Let them know you’re listening. Please do a service to them and for non-profit radio our affiliate listeners throughout the country on the am and fm stations, the family of the family of stations non-profit radio i’m glad you’re with us affiliate listeners here’s the rest of gale perry on firing up your board fund-raising my guest is gail perry, the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action that is published by wiley and available at amazon. Gail, you left with a very interesting ah sort of ah, phrase, repeat that for us and let’s let’s think about that. Grantmaking i don’t want to see it. I said i would rather have a friend to my cause than a donor rather have a friend in a donor, and people are shocked when i say that it’s a little more about the reason is that i ask everybody, what will a friend do for you? You know, and friends to your cause will do everything in the world, including give money, and so maybe we do need to change our fund-raising in the friend making, because if you make friends out of your donors and bring them much more deeply into the cause and get them really involved, then they’ll stick with you for the long run, and we have a terrible problem in fund-raising ofwhat we call donorsearch trish in which is, of course, the fact that donors give once and then they slip away. Or give twice and they don’t stick around. I mean, do you know that the donor attrition and i do not know them, but before you, before you cite wth, um, i do know that it’s it costs a lot more time and money to find a new donor than it does to treat well and retain an existing donor. You know, i was reading some statistic. They said it was it cost ten times more to get a new donor or a new customer for business than it does to retain one of those attrition way halling statistic is that across the board, the probability that i will make a second gift, your organization, after i made the first one, is only fifty percent at really that’s the high fifty percent, really some other studies cited even lower than that. And so i would say that non-profits are failing miserably, a customer service and donorsearch so therefore maybe maybe maybe we do need to focus on our current donors and love him a lot and involving more daily rather than going out and beating our heads against the wall in the much harder work bringing and, of course, every organization is going to have their own statistic, which they certainly should be tracking their own their own donor, tricia, while they ought to be, i think, tracking their own donor attrition on dh if they find that number to be hi, that percentage to be hi. What? What can they be doing, teo? To reduce that to reduce the attrition? Got lots of things they could do you that wee hollow. How old movement in fund-raising called donor-centric fund-raising and that there was just a twitter chat on that topic that i was following a little while ago. Donor-centric fund-raising means that you are thinking about your donor rather than yourself all the time. And you communicate with your donor frequently with cheerful news about the results that you’ve achieved in the world with their gift. And you do everything you can to make the donor feel passionate and connected. You invite, um, two special things you send him special mailings. You you do not, uh, meaningful information about what you’re doing does not include a boring newsletter because studies show that most donors fund that non-profit newsletters are boring and they don’t read. Um and you know, somewhere some organizations have what they call a donor appreciation of the end if something signs boring that sign sporting, i’d rather go to a barbecue. Some eyes have to settle, celebrate the donors, but not to a donor appreciation of. So i think non-profits need to think a lot more entrepreneurially about what donorsearch customer service really looks like and be creative with whatever the organization does in terms of programming to bring violent, bring donors in so programming communications. Well, thankyou statistics show that the phone call thank you probably is the most powerful to keep a donor giving and connected, and i think one of the best ways well, i don’t know. Ah, great way for donors for board members to be involved. Eyes making those thank you calls. Absolutely. I have some clients who do that, others don’t but just a simple just called to say thank you not to ask for anything more, not even to invite you, but just to say thank you, right? And i’ll be. Burke is the great canadian researcher has done a study after study on the statistical results of what happens when boardmember say thank you and interfere, make a phone call to say thank you and hurt her very first study that she’s repeated over and over with many different sides organizations. Here’s the first study is amazing, she’s working with the canadian paraplegic association and they were doing a phone mail campaign all across canada, and the average gift of this campaign was twenty six dollars. And she did a test and had the board members make a thankyou phone call within twenty four hours after the gift was received to one out of every ten donors on that big campaign. So they they made their phone calls. The boardmember had a great time. They enjoyed it. It was theory well orchestrated. Five months later, they re solicited both group, the group that hadn’t gotten a phone call and the groups that had gotten a phone call. And so guess how much muchmore money? The people who were phone called game i don’t know, did a double thirty nine percent there, nine percent more from the ten percent so here’s proof that boardmember can directly impact the bottom line and fund-raising without having to ask for money, right? And that’s what we alluded to earlier it’s, not it’s. Not all about asking. Oh, and so that’s that’s what all of my message is all about? And i think border treats around the country, and i’m very popular with boards because i give them easy ways to make a difference and fund-raising that don’t involve asking, so they like me and also try to turn the retreat into a party and they like that. Yes, well, you’re very popular with tony martignetti non-profit radio, but we got to call you before i had announced the phone number to call. Well, i’ve been a little tweet out a minute ago, you know, thereby calling like that she’s tweeting while she’s talking to me on the phone. Now, what about that previous guest? I had alice march, the attention factor and that’s that’s not good practice norvig i’m sure you did it on a break. Did it break? But the number to call if you do want to talk to my guest. Gail perry is eight seven seven for eight xero for one, two zero, eight, seven, seven for eight xero for one to zero and gail is the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action. What else? Gail? Besides the simple and the thing that something that everybody would love to do besides those simple and pleasant, thank you phone calls, how else can we engage board members? That is not a direct solicitation. Well, one of the when i was writing my book, i interviewed a lot of the bank of directors, and one one person just said something so tellingly, she said, if i could just get my board members open doors, that that would make my make my life so much easier, but they are embarrassed about opening doors, and they think it’s all about money, and they won’t do it. And so let’s, let’s give some thought about how boardmember can open doors in a way that is easy for them and playful and fun and is like throwing all their friends onto the bandwagon rather than being stiff and awkward cause you know, i like i like the metaphor of a bandwagon latto boardmember that everybody they know, especially their family and close friends, needs to know that they are very excited about thiscause, and they spend a lot of time on this call, and i’ll tell, i’ll tell boardmember that, um, you know you’re familiar with the concept, of course, of barrel marketing and the notion that ideas are viruses and they spread and hotel boardmember they need to be sneakers everywhere they go, they need to be sneezing on everybody, you know, to spread a cunt contagious epidemic of happy news about the work that they’re organizations doing to make the world a different place, a better place. So that’s just asking them remember, laugh then light back-up thinking they understand the concept of sneezing on everybody, they know if they can do that, so we have to we have to in order to help them sneeze properly. The have found out that board members don’t know what to say. If you really think about the good book, they don’t know what to say and that even boardmember have come to me and they say for when i have a chance to talk to somebody what i talk about, wait before we talk about what it is you want them to say, who is that they should be talking to, well, sneezing on who they need every boardmember even if they say they don’t know any quote, wealthy people unquote, every boardmember has relationship that can help forward their organization, it might be with a church group or a club or a foundation or corporation or maybe they’re wealthy. And what about their co workers? Well, their coworkers too, although sometimes co workers, um, is your employee anyway, sometimes that can be a little touchy. However many businesses adopt causes for their employees to get involved in. Okay, that is part of a team building so it’s, very broad, mostly personal relationships, personal networks, and this is this is a country back-up all the social networks that any one person has. I mean, i’ve got my hairdresser, i’ve got my dry cleaner, you know, i’ve got my extended family, which is very large professional friends, social friends, you know, most of these people know that i’m wildly passionate about a couple of causes and that they’re always invited right now, your advice is your advice, gail is gail don’t matter that’s why they went down to a party it’s a matter of getting boardmember into a different spirit about their call, okay, but what should they be? What should they specific? Find a spirit of inviting people on a spirit of sneezing everywhere, talking about it and not being afraid or embarrassed about talking. And what should they be saying? Gale? What specifically? Well, you know, like the women’s center last night we talked about wait, we did a little bit of messaging, we did it, we did a mingle exercise, and i asked everybody in the room to get up out of his chair and find another boardmember and just tell him why they care so on, and we did that three different times, they find three different boardmember zor four different board members and just shared a conversation that while they cared, and so i think, what a boardmember should talk about it. Why think here about the organization? Because that is an impact statement it’s not specific, it usually doesn’t have programs and services and data, and it has an emotional story that comes from the heart. Give us an example of a statement like that. Well, i believe in the women’s center because alright, i’m involved this organization on the passion about, i think politics for hobby and it’s a pack and, you know, i’m a active democrat and also it’s all fundraisers to be active in. Any politically and either side, because it’s good it’s good, it helps your fund-raising at multiple levels, i’m passionate about the democratic collison selecting women office, and i just believe that when mohr women are in the general assembly of north carolina, we have better laws for children, for victims, for the environment, and women deserve the voice and they need the voice. And so that’s my personal opinion about why i think my organisation is important, okay? And so the women, they’re people, they could say, you know, i’m just so worried because these these homeless women and children are the most fragile people in our society, and they’re right in our backyard, and it breaks my heart to see him, and we really need help and it’s an ideal way of opening a conversation about the organization that you’re so passionate about and bringing more friends to it that’s the whole objective and you know it say, boardmember don’t have to have a big each prepared right. They can just talk about their own personal opinion about what’s important, and they could do that because they’re not going to forget that they might forget the mission statement in the three million marketing messages, but they’ll remember why they care, you know, what’s another way, way, actually, before we move on to the other additional ways, i do wantto put a disclaimer in that gale’s evidence of me. I mean, advice of sneezing is contrary to the centers for disease control recommendations that your sneeze into your elbow that is not. She does not want to seize a terrible shoretz you sneeze openly broadly, and the b aerosol ing your good message throughout the subways and your community do not sneeze into your elbow. Gail, how else again? Thiss to me, i think, is the crux of our whole conversation. Ways specific ways that board members can be engaged. That is not a solicitation. How else? Alright, now two of my favorite ways our host tours and host small social um, i think it’s just thinking your temple non-profit if every single boardmember hosted on event in their home just to introduce their friends to the cause no soliciting, just introduce. Um, just think what networks your organization would open forth for the future. Boardmember, for example, we had a new director of the carolina ballet here in north carolina and almost like a ballet boardmember and i had a porch party to invite introduce people to the new artistic director and it was way had about twenty people who came and forty people invited. And you have a very big porch. Yeah, well, having a big old southern front porch. I have a lot of parties here in new york city. We have a balcony. Party would be a boardmember in the executive director squeezed onto a balcony. It’s about fourteen inches wide deep. But that’s that’s only applies here. Wait. We have a national audience listening, right? Not your we certainly do. In fact, that i have a porch party really goes over well in texas and some of other places i worked. But from that porch party, the ballet got eventually a wonderful new boardmember and a major donor. And it was the first time these people had been introduced to the ballet and i the boardmember didn’t have to do anything. All i had to do was have a little party and tell everybody that needed to meet this hot new gun town. So it was very easy. And it was i wasn’t very one. Self conscious are anything. See, the problem is that boardmember think it’s all about money, they’re not going to do it because they’re energy’s gonna clam up, and they’re going to feel self conscious and awkward, and they’re going to back away it’s, not about money, it’s, about introductions, right? What about making friends? Because even if people can’t give, they may have other relationships they can offer that can open doors. And if you think about the vast possible network that your organization could make use of, its better it’s, good to think in a very broad picture. Yeah, we have to take a break. My guest is gail perry, the author of fired-up fund-raising turned board passion into action. Take this break, please stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s, aria finger do something that orc. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Lively conversation, top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige nani, author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. Gale, let’s, let’s. Spend our remaining minutes talking about let’s. Get at least just one more idea how boardmember is khun do something fund-raising related. That’s not a direct solicitation. Yeah, something else that i find very helpful. I call it the v i p prospect game. Always like to make everything into a game for boardmember because it’s sounds a little bit more interesting and fun. And you’re gonna explain what the viper prospect game is, right? Okay, no dark in jail today and here’s the but the issue i’m tackling is that board staff always asked the board over and over for names of people and everybody boardmember every boardmember starts to give ten names san and boardmember won’t do it because they don’t know what’s gonna happen to these people after they name has turned our turned him. So what i do as i tell everybody to take out a sheet of paper that they do not have to turn in and just think for a minute, see if they could make a list of up to ten people who could catapult your organization to a whole new level catapults. And i’m not talking about messing around. And on and then i’m quite i give about five minutes and our mind and that these three people could be representative corporations. They could be a state attorneys, they could be government agencies are elected officials, they could be individuals, corporations, foundations, united club social club um, and i try to broaden the basis for the board members to consider all the possibilities of relationships they have, they could catapult their organization, and so i give them practice, right, creating a prospect list and thinking about this without being self conscious, that they have to turn in the name, and then that step one step two is that i asked them to turn to the person next to them and just discuss one of the names on one of their lives. So what i’m doing that there is giving them practice losing from prospect identification to actually considering strategy and it’s, a low key, low pressure exercise that help support members, get them warmed up to the whole idea of thinking big, talking about specific individuals and then moving to strategy of how we can open the door and cultivate a deeper relationship with this entity or this person. And what i do after the exercises that i’ve tried to create a viper task force committee and of the board members to need after the retreat because we used to do this in a retreat for man meet after the retreat and come up with the prospect lift and the staff is going yes, thank you, thank you, thank you, because the staff has been trying to get the board members to do this forever, but the way they were being approached made the board members feel uncomfortable and the board members would back away. So again, you know, master, a playful, lighthearted approach to a topic that can be very scary for people has been helpful. Yeah, we just have about two minutes left. What about board members that aren’t going to jump on board with this? They’re they’re just so let’s call them just difficult board members, they’re not coming on board with these with these ideas. How do we manage those? Well, you know, i started managing my expectations. Um, i think it any board, you’re gonna have a handful of people who are dead weight and if you beat yourself up about trying to get these people at you’ll kill yourself. I just been tryingto tryto keep him quiet on and hope they don’t cause any disruption. And then i’ll pull out my term limits to make sure that we can rotate them off the board. Yes, written term limits, which also need to be enforced. Absolutely latto don’t. Okay, what if eso you you’re really so your advice is just bide your time until the term limit ends, and it could be in the beginning of their term? Well, you know, i think i have a friend who was is in the second director he when he had boardmember you weren’t showing up doing what they needed to do, he would go meet with him and he would say, you know, is there another way you would like to be involved with our organization or serve our cause? Because since you can’t quite do the boardmember job well and i say that, and he said they were relieved because they were feeling guilty. Yes, they felt guilty and didn’t want to let the organization down, and i thought that peer pressure is a huge motivational factor because nobody wants to look embarrassed in front. Of their peers. Everybody wants to do come to that board meeting prepared and having done their list that they said they would do so i find pierre pressure very, very helpful. And so you have to board meetings, have to praise the people who are performing, and you have to honor and recognize them. And i think i think it’s all about motivation and team building. Yeah, we have to leave it there. I’m sorry. Our time is up. My guest has been gail perry, consultant as president of gale perry associates and author of fired-up fund-raising published by widely available on amazon piela one. Thank you very much for being on the show. Thank you. Yeah. Remind people that my web site is gail perry dot com and their lots of articles on resource is there that you can? All right. Thank you very much. Ok, bye, gail. Next week, who needs campaign counsel? Peter panepento walks us through his report on self-funding campaigns. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. And by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we be e spelling dot com. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. Shows social media is by susan chavez, and this music is by scott stein, here with me next week for non-profit radio, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great notice. I didn’t say crushing. Hey! What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful posts here’s aria finger, ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com.

Nonprofit Radio for March 17, 2017: Your Board As Brand Ambassadors

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Roger Sametz: Your Board As Brand Ambassadors

Does your board know the basics of your brand? Do you? How many volumes in your story library and how do you build your board’s talent at sharing them? Roger Sametz is president and CEO of Sametz Blackstone Associates, a brand consultancy. (Originally aired March 20, 2015)

 

 


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Duitz hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s st patrick’s day happy lafell napor egg. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of busan. O sis, if you made me cotton up to the idea that you missed today’s show you’re bored as brand ambassadors. Does your board know the basics of your brand? Do you? How many volumes in your story library and how do you build your boards? Talent at sharing them? Roger sametz is president and ceo of sam it’s blackstone associates, a brand consultancy on tony’s take two naps that’s, right? I said, naps. What about it? My show? I do whatever the hell i want. We’re gonna talk about naps. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here’s your board as brand ambassadors. Roger sametz is with me in the studio. He is the president and ceo of sam it’s, blackstone associates, boston based brand consultancy integrating brand editorial and digital strategy with design and digital media they work with academic research and cultural non-profits as well as corporations roger rights and speaks widely on brand building he’s at sam it’s on twitter and his company is at sametz se m e t z dot com. Roger sametz welcome to the studio hyre glad to be here. Pleasure, but it have you ah, why do we need board members to be brand ambassadors? Why important? Well, a lot of board members, you know, sign up to be born members and given of their time and money and expertise, and they don’t actually think they have to do more than that. But there’s no marketing or development department in any non-profit of any size that actually doesn’t need help, and board members have networks, so to the extent that they could be out there and actually talking to their networks in productive ways, are opening the doors for the fund-raising staff for being an extension of the marketing staff, that’s all to the good, and what does it mean to be a brand ambassador? Well, to be a brand ambassador means you have to sort of first sounds tautological. Understand the brand so that you could be out there and actually talk about the organization and what it means and what its vision is and how you might, you know, convince other people too participate, donate or even be another boardmember and this is something that can be trained, since, since people don’t come to the organization most likely with the skills, they can learn them, of course, well, boardmember is generally have no aptitude for learning things, or they might not be on boards, so sure, and a lot of the work we do with boards actually happens in ah boardmember ing setting, or perhaps a retreat setting or some sort of special meeting because if you come into a board and you know you’re the finance guy or you’re the you know, you’re the lawyer who helps out or, you know, help out and, you know, some particular aspect going out and chatting may not be something that you’re actually conversant in or have done, how come they’re not? We’re not natural ambassadors, brand ambassadors because it just come naturally? Well, i think part because we love the organization well, part of it may be that some people, of course, are better actually having conversations and drawing people out and others. But leaving that to one side, people come into organizations because they know some chunk of it. You know, you come in because you care about the kid’s education problems you came or you care about, you know, their hunger programs or something. But you may not know the full scope of an organization. You may only know that sort of bit that, you know, touched you. So part of the education process is getting people up to speed on the whole of the organization, and then, you know, coaching them like you would coach anyone to anything to be more comfortable. All right, on dh to start this coaching training we need we need to recognize that there’s a gap between i think, the way they weigh the organs, they perceive the organization on the way they like it to be perceived. The way they describe it on the way they’d like the organization to be perceived. Help him. See that there’s. Some dis constants there. Sure. I mean, often leadership in an organization or the person charged with stewarding. The board is pretty clear. That their boardmember zehr not really good ambassadors. And then there are plenty of board members who, when asked to go out and, you know, be ambassadors, sort of look at the clock or look at the floor or say, not my thing. Um, but there’s a sort of an easy exercise that one can actually do and it’s sort of fun. So take a board meeting, take twenty minutes onboarding pass out a bunch of four by six index cards and ask boardmember is on one side. Write down how you actually describe this organization, the friends of yours at a cocktail party or a barbecue or something. Give them seven minutes or whatever to do that, and then ask them on the other side of the index card to write down what they might like to see if the local newspaper we’re writing an article on the organization so typically a newspaper will write, you know, x organisation comma, eh blank comma. So, you know, there was three or four words there that come after the name of the organization that are sort of pinned to it in the first paragraph of some article, so ask the board. Members, what would you like to see their so the first side of the card is, how would you actually talk about this to some peer in a cocktail party? The second side is sort of this distillation, this aspirational take on how you’d like to actually have the organisation described. So you do that, and the reason you actually using index cards is so tony who’s sitting next to janice can’t say, oh, you know what jenna said so people have to commit to writing on dh. Then you go around the room and you share what people have written on both sides of the cards and two things. If history is our guide will happen, you either end up with or either or both, you’ll end up with very disconnected descriptions of the organization as you go around the room you start to get thes looks like, oh my god, we really are not singing off the same page, and then when you get to the second side of the card, the aspirational side, you’ll get these completely different visions, so just doing this exercise will make pretty clear to people that, hey, we could use some training. Yeah, sounds it sounds very eye opening, especially the aspirational side, the way you’d like the organization to be described. But in your experience, you see lots of lots of disparate answers to those. Well, you do. I mean, boardmember czar recruited or they sign up, but they’re not part of leadership. I mean, they’re not sitting in the, you know, ceo or executive director’s office, so they may never have actually been in on the vision of the place. So there’s some catch up to do ok? And, uh, they need to become masters of the the brand, the organization’s brand. What are what are some elements of brand this a very ethereal thing that a lot of people regrettably reduced to logo, logo in tagline or something? Dahna we know it goes a lot deeper than that i’ve had guests on who have made that very clear, but what are some of these? Whatever some of the concepts around in brand that we’re trying to grasp? Okay, so if you think of brand not as the label on the toothpaste box and certainly brand in the context of non-profits is fairly recent and there’s still a fair amount. Of resistance around that because there will be many people who think it’s too commercial. But if you think a brand, not as to your point not is the logo a locally sort of a symbol of the brand. But if you think about it as what an organization means, what it promises, the expectations it sets well, then that’s a whole different way of looking at brand so boardmember is have to sort of understand that, but took sort of get to that. I have to sort of get under that hood. There are some sort of grand basics to go over. So we started meeting to go to talk about what is an organization. Means so you need to understand. Okay. What’s the organization’s vision. They may not be clear on that. What are our areas of focus? Which means, you know, if we’re an anti hunger organization, how we actually, you know what? One of the areas in which we’re working to accomplish eradicating hunger. What of the roles we play? You could be a convener. You could be, you know, an inventor. You could be any number of things. But constituency out there are not gonna remember seventeen programs that you have, so you need to sort of boyle is down into a finite number. I don’t know three, five areas of focus and rolls that people can actually remember. And then the sort of more evocative side of this what are the brand attributes that you want? Associate it. So these air generally adjective. So to take commercial metaphor here, you know, volvo has always been associated with safety. Then they sort of managed the product and brand slightly differently, and they kept safety and added performance. So organizations tend to have attributes that they own that are already associating with them, and attributes that they would like to have associated with them, which will call aspirational. So if you work through these areas of focus, the mission envision the rolls and the attributes both owned an aspirational you get a pretty good sense of the underpinnings of how an organization can be presented externally. All right, we need to dive deeper into some of this because it sounds i mean it’s very basic to the organization, the its promise. What are the expectations? I know when you didn’t mention that i know is part. Of it, how do you measure success? This is not something that, you know, if it’s not already clear, we’re not gonna be ableto answer all these questions in a in a board meeting is strategic planning up a part of this process? Well, strategic planning certainly could be part of the process, but leadership also may know some of this, but the board may not, so no, some of it so you certainly could have sessions where you educate or you could use the board, too, actually surface these by putting a big post its around the room and actually putting these topics down and writing down different suggestions and then sort of figuring out where you are, okay, we’re gonna go out for a break and when we return, of course, roger and i’m going to keep talking about your board as brand ambassadors stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Let’s do some live listener love and let’s do it starting abroad. Tokyo, japan and multiple tokyo, japan and musashino in japan. Konnichiwa, seoul, south korea always so loyal soul. Unbelievable! Anya haserot to our listeners in seoul and in china, we’ve got none jing and guangzhou konnichi wa live listen love here in the u, s st louis, missouri, sioux falls, south dakota, san francisco, california, new york, new york welcome each of you and, of course, podcast pleasantries to those listening wherever you are at whatever time on whatever device pleasantries to the podcast listeners over ten thousand of you and to our affiliates, affiliate affection love each of you let’s have a little rations on non-profit radio an abundance of them i admire. I like now. I like a little rations. Roger i yesterday i was speaking at a at a a present. I did a presentation on hosting a panel, and i met a boardmember for ah who’s on the big apple circus board. I don’t know if you’re familiar with big circus, there sure are a lot to new york and one of the things she lamented is that they’re not too well known, but i think she was an excellent brand ambassador because within a minute she had me understanding how first, reminding me that it is a non-profit which a lot of people don’t know, but that they use clowning techniques to help children in a bereavement program that they have, and also a clown, techniques in education, on some of the outreach in the school programs that they have, and she ticked off like three or four things within a minute or a minute and a half that i had no idea of the big apple circus did. Um, and i just i i complimented around being ah ah, an outstanding bruh broad no, outstanding brand ambassador that was jenny keim, virginia chambers kind. But jenny keim is what she goes by. I was really struck teo to meet a riel what i thought was a real good brand ambassador boardmember well, it seems like she was pretty clear on as we were talking about before the break the organization’s rolls? Yeah, it’s areas of focus, she made it clear to you, you know that it wasn’t on profit, which could have been ambiguous, and she clearly engaged you. So whether she comes by this naturally or it’s been soaking in it or had some training you, but i don’t know, but that is what we’re aiming for. I urged her i told her that if her fellow board members are not as good ambassadors as she, that she should listen to this exact show because you were coming on the next day, just yesterday, some of these basics that we were just talking about seems to me that the organization should already know all the stuff that you mentioned mission values, expectations who with constituents he should already be known factors leadership certainly should know all of that, but sometimes they actually get a little bit down in the weeds. So if you’re an organization that has seventeen different programs or you’re an academic research organization that has seventeen different labs or whatever, people often sort of stay at that program level and don’t actually think about how can we group thes into, you know, sort of higher level categories or buckets that people could more easily understand because they’re so focused on, you know, keeping the ship going. In the right direction, so sometimes they don’t think about that, and also there’s we determined over these over the years, people within non-profits see their value as self evident, you know, i work here, i believe in it. You should believe in it too, and they don’t quite understand that it actually takes more work to get someone who’s only connected tangentially or not connected at all to understand it. So there’s work to do to move from that sort of internal. Ah, phew! Point to being externally focused, what you need to do if you’re trying to, you know, get more donors or increase your participation or, you know, whatever, with people who are not in the fold, how do you find boards take to this work? Are they enthusiastic about the idea that we’re gonna be talking about brandy and being an ambassador or however it’s described to them? How did they how did they how did they take to it? We’ve always found that people were actually quite thankful because they’re they’re nervous. They know that part of their role is to be ambassadors, but yet they don’t really know howto ambassador for might arise, yeah. So, you know, any sort of help that gets them into position of, you know, both comfort and sort of fluency so that it feels natural and not nervous about it. That’s great and a lot of the exercises that we sort of put together, they’re helped by wine there, helped by camaraderie fluid. Sure. So you could make these exercises fun. And to the extent that they actually build fluency within a specific person, they’re also building deeper engagement of your board, you know, across all the members. Do you find red or white? Wine is a better, better beverage to accompany this. And then i think people could choose either one. Is you’re you’re agnostic. Teo. Totally. Okay. Okay. Um how let’s. See, when? When organizations are coming to you for for help in this area. What kind of symptoms are they showing? How do they know they have a problem? Well, we talked about that index card exercise before the break, which is sort of a diagnostic tool. But i think organizations khun simply know they need some more help from their board members. I mean, any non-profit board needs their board to help open doors for fund-raising and that’s only gonna happen if the boardmember is, you know, comfortable in fluent and can you no understand enough to actually make that happen? No, okay? And they so is it usually the case that the organizations do recognize themselves that they’ve got some some shortcomings around their their boards participation in fund-raising sure and or is just a good idea, okay? And do you describe when you’re when you’re when you’re about to come to the board, do you describe it as we’re going? We’re going to help you, coach youto be good ambassadors? Oh, absolutely, i mean, there’s no reason to hide around this kind of people, you know, they’re ashamed of it was just one oh, no, no, they’re generally up for it, okay? All right. There are for the help askew described. Okay, um, so let’s, let’s talk a little more about some of these some of the basics of the brand there’s, some more elements to it that we haven’t talked about, like like who do we serve, where we focus on what is a mother? Sure. So so almost any non-profit is going to have a range of constituencies, so, you know we’ve been talking about donors, donors are one constituency people actually take advantage of your services and offerings. That’s, another constituency, you may have partners, you may have government agencies you may have, you know, people you’re trying to recruit as staff. So all of these people have slightly different needs about what they need to know about your organization that orders or connect in ways that make sense for them. So you need to identify constituencies and what they care about so that you can sort of rearrange things in ways that make sense for them. I mean, you would do the same thing and planning a website. You named one very interesting potential potential employees, people who use you’re hoping to recruit to the organization. Ah, a brand ambassador, boardmember could easily be talking to the next cfo or or any person, any level? Absolutely. And, you know, given that non-profits generally pay less than profit organizations, you have to want to be there. So to the extent that the brand is another reason to want to work in that work for that organization that’s all to the good. But you have to understand that in order for that to be, you know, a magnet, our next step once we’ve well have we exhausted all the basics of the brand before we go the next step, i think we have i think, if we understand, you know, areas of focus and rolls and the only thing we didn’t talk about was sort of category, which sounds a little odd, but sometimes boards have a hard time articulating what exactly are you know, are you an anti hunger organization, or are you a social services organization really instant? You find that we often find that, and so that that sort of stymies people, that that first level of conversation, if they can’t even clearly say, you know what category the organization? So it sounds simple enough, but when you sort of put to the test, it isn’t that simple, and often it actually takes some work to both evolve and then subsequently get agreement on interesting. So so that actually it’s a good agreement on so there’s differing opinion as to whether we’re we’re social service or community based? Or, you know, however, we defining ourselves, you get your getting different opinions around that you will get different opinions. And you’ll get different language, even around the same opinion can share a any chance you, khun recollect what we’re working with, that we’re working with one organization at the moment. That’s a non-profit that actually helps. Non-profits and part of the organization thinks they’re in the capacity building business, which he’s probably accurate but not particularly mellifluous to talk about and part of the organization thinks they’re in the business of shifting power and influence to change values in society. These are two very different ideas. Yeah, now they actually do both. But if you’re out there talking about it and you pick one or the other, you get a very different picture. And how does the process mediate these different opinions? Well, this would actually happen at a leadership level and not a board level one would have one would have the chats, and we do have the chats with senior leadership to sort of nail this. All right? This is very, very esoteric stuff. You’re dealing with this brand well, yeah. It’s always interesting and there’s a lot more to it. Then, you know, the star burst on the side of the toothpaste box. All right, um we once all the board members are, are comfortable with the brand basics, then we’re going to help them put together a new elevator speech, right? Sure. Ok, everybody wants one. This is a couple minutes like, i basically what i heard about the big apple circus from from ginny kind well, everyone, you know, elevator speeches just shorthand for what’s your high level message, but implied in this it’s the notion of being able to have everybody on the same page. So one template that you can use actually comes from a game that some people may have played earlier in life called mad libs, which was, if you remember, there was sort of a story on a pad and there were blanks, and you were asked to fill in a noun or a verb or an adverb, and then when the story i read back, you know, some level of hilarity and because of the words don’t make any sense. So when you do this on a brand focused level, you’re actually looking for more specific things, so the template runs something like it will try to draw this in radio air, okay, for whatever constituency, so if you’re an arts organization. You could be art’s interested. Public could be prospective donors. Could be artists? No, for ex constituency. Your organization is what? So that’s, where you get that sort of category answer and you provide another blank. What do you provide? And then how we’re through, how do you actually provide it? And then what value to deliver? And how is the organization worthy of participation? And how is it worthy of support? So these are all blanks. So, again, it’s an exercise with big sort of post its up around the room, and you put lots of different answers in and then the board together sort of calls. Okay, what are the best response is here. And then you start to sort of string it together, along with adjectives that actually could come from your brand attributes. So an example might be so let’s. Take, for example, wgbh, which is a public television stations radio station in balkan. There we worked with. So the big category answer might be public media powerhouse or content engine, which were both a lot more evocative than television and radio stations. Um, the second part of that might be trusted. Guide to new worlds and new ideas that sze what the organization is. Yes, of course. So it’s a more evocative answer than a literal answer. Yeah, but that hey, you’re out being ambassadors so you can certainly be we’re not trying to divine this is not a definition that is not a dictionary process and it’s, not a tax form, okay, you know, in terms of areas, well, they’re they’re in news and drama there in public affairs therein kids programming, they’re in science, so you get to nail the sort of areas of focus they have signature programs like masterpiece everybody knows downtown and that what do they provide? They provide opportunities for exploration and interaction and an independent voice, especially if you’re talking about the news and public affairs programming. Where did they do this? Well, it’s locally, the boston area but now that everything streams it’s much farther, and of course, it’s multi platform so there’s a more complicated answer toa wear then there might have been in years past, and then you can end with, you know, it’s for you and supported by you. Or you could take another completely different example i referenced anti hunger organization a while ago so the constituency might be for those who care about in this case, we’re talking about massachusetts seven hundred thousand people in massachusetts who actually don’t know where their next meal is coming from. So that’s the constituency, the people who care about that and then project bread what’s the category, the leading statewide anti hunger organization. And what do they do? Offer fresh approaches, ending hunger? What are they? By pioneering funding, facilitating a range of programs and through education advocacy, they actually have programs that meet people where they are rather than just handing food out of back of a truck, and then you get into that next level of details? Well, you know, how do they actually do this? So it’s programs that are in the community programs that are schools with kids, programs that are building sustainable food ecosystem? So then you get into more detail and then what’s the benefit. Well, it’s all the sort of fulfill a vision that’s the opposite of hungry isn’t just full it’s healthy, which then musicians the organization differently against sort of just emergency food and nutrition versus full nutrition vs and then you go, you bring it down to donors, which is with the support of people. They also sponsor a large hunger walk. Those who walk and our corporate partners, we’re able to eradicate hunger in the state. All right, two two excellent examples. A little long, but but i think the examples help help us teo to fill in the in the template. Um, okay, we’re going to give ah, roger. We’ll give you a break for a couple minutes and there’s going to be mohr with roger coming up talking about brand ambassadors and tony’s take too, of course, before that more with roger’s sam it’s coming up first pursuing do you need to open a convo in your office on sustaining e-giving or persuade someone that it’s valuable or see for yourself? How much money gets raised? Maybe you go crazy for infographics on your pinterest boards? Is that you, mr or ms pinterest? Pursuing has a new infographic on sustaining giving it’s at pursuing dot com click resource is then intra graphics couldn’t be simpler, and we’ll be spelling spelling bees for fund-raising how about a millennial game show in a local club as your fundraiser? That’s what? These bees are spelling bee concert standup comedy live music dance check out the video it’s at wi be e spelling dot com now for tony’s take do as i said, we’re talking about naps in praise of naps i’m a big fan of napping research shows you only need about twenty minutes to feel refreshed and be more efficient, and your brain is working better it’s getting better oxygen and blood flow. However, i’m not ashamed to say that i do not unfree quickly go longer than the research recommends. Naps should be encouraged in offices, i think. Why? Why? Why do we fight that drowsy drunk feeling after lunch? You can’t keep your head up, you know what i’m talking about? Givin put your head down and when you’re home, take advantage, indulge i even have a favorite napping blanket. I think everybody does. I hope that i don’t know i do, but i think lots of people do. I hope this mine is soft, it’s cotton, the soft as just the right weight. Very important the weight. Check out the video in praise of naps at tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two you’re probably glad it’s over here’s more roger sametz. Roger. Sam it’s. Feeling a little under the weather, but he’s mustering? Well, if you hear your silence that’s ah that’s cutting rogers mikes that we can give him a cough. But he’s made the trip down from boston. Thank you for doing that. It’s. Been a tough boston winter, as most of your listeners probably already know we do. And it’s not been much better here. Today is the first day of spring. I believe march twentieth and it’s snowing outside. We look out the window right now, there’s pretty brisk snow coming down in new york city. Bob all right, anything more you want to add? We don’t need another example. But anything more you want to add about this this template, but helps with the elevator speech? Well, i think it does two things. I mean, you actually end up with an elevator speech is not going to be eloquent language by putting things up in this mad libs posted format, but it will give you the content. So then, you know, either some sub committee of the board or staff can then be charged with actually, you know, wordsmithing. It so everybody likes it, okay? But getting the content down is important, and then the other thing it does, of course, which all of these exercises do is get boardmember is engaged. So to the extent that people sitting around a board table or wherever you’re sitting in doing this are participating in developing messages it’s already getting into their heads. So we stand a much better chance of people becoming comfortable with something if they’ve had a part in evolving it much more so than if you just took, you know, a piece of paper and slid it across the table, foisted on them and say, memorized, memorized this on dh have it prepared for the next for the next meeting? Yes, quite. Okay. All right, so they’re involved in the involved in the creation of it. Um, this is going tio this is one of the tools that were empowering board members with basically i mean, this is what we’re trying to make comfortable, confident brand ambassadors and, uh, another tool that you recommend his stories. Yes, well, you know boardmember sze, can we, like anybody, can sort of talk about an organization either from the top. Down or the bottom up. So the top down would be starting with your elevator speech. And then presumably, if you haven’t run to get another ice cube, the person you’re talking to, you might tell a story another boardmember might swell around it a barstool and actually just start with a story and end up with the elevator speech. So a bottom up approach, okay, but this only really works if people have the stories one way or the other, and what happens is boardmember because they’ve experienced the organisation themselves in one way or another, you know, they might have a story, um, but they might have on ly that one story and, you know, the other board members would have different stories, so the extent that you can sort of pull these stories and even get a story library going, perhaps online, internally online, then people have more things that they can talk to and they can sort of pivot. But if you want to sort of think about a story there’s, of course, another template to try to actually do that, and you could sort of start by thinking, okay, if if this were a movie title. What would be the name of the movie? And that will lead you immediately to some sort of evocative top end to the story. And then, of course, you want to talk about, well, who’s in the story, who’s the protagonist. So this could be a person or it could be an organization. Then the next step to think about is okay. So where what’s the problem? What? What has to get solved? And then where does your organization come in? So what programs or services get marshaled to help solve that problem and then what’s the end of the story? And is thie ending? You know, finite? Or is the benefit ongoing? So you can use that very simple template and really think about okay? How does your organization, you know, participate in either other organizations or other people’s lives to make a difference? Where where else might these stories emanate from your example, was board board members. Maybe each person has a story or something, but they can also filter up from the program’s staff that’s out, actually doing the work. Um, i know a lot of organizations like to invite people who are benefiting from the work the people of the organization is serving, have them come to board meetings and tell their story sure, you could absolutely do that. What you’re going for is something that’s authentic where you khun, you know, show that you made a difference and that you’re not sort of, you know, overreaching, you’re not trying to say you made you more of a difference and people would believe, yeah, but sure, i mean, you know, every organization writes up profiles or highlights people, those are generally stories, whether they’re set up a stories that have sort of a, you know, beginning middle and an end that has a benefit, you know, that varies, but what you are going to make sure that you have it, you know, you have an impact statement at the end, you have a benefit to show that you know, why people should participate or why people should be donors and just, you know, give them a reason to believe we gotta get these stories down too, what under two minutes? Right? If if i’m in a conversation with somebody at a reception or something, you know, i can’t hold their interest too long list, i’m a master storyteller? Well, you might be, but yes, i think you’re right under two minutes or, you know, if you’re writing it out, you know, under two hundred words. Yeah. Okay. All right, um and you mentioned a story library like internally online. What? What is that? What you could do a story library in any number of ways. But if your organization has some sort of internal web set up that’s a great place to post them if it doesn’t have that, you know, you could just compile them. But the whole idea is you don’t want stories to just leave an individual’s heads if they’re really good and they could be shared and, you know, people can use them in conversation out there in the world. You might even be sharing them on the web. Well, with the public doesn’t have to be behind a, you know, an internet or anything, you know, a lot. Meet a lot of what we’ve been talking about because we’ve been talking in the board. Ambassador context is useful for word ambassadors, but of course, it’s useful for staff. It’s useful for senior leadership? Yeah, potential donors have thes stories air there’s quite a bit of talk among non-profits about around non-profits around around storytelling, right? And as i said earlier, you know, storytelling is simply sort of the inductive way of describing your organization that’s supposed to starting from the top down, which is sort of more than deductive way, but both are valid, and it has to do with how you’re comfortable talking with people, okay, what’s our next tool that we want teo arm, are board members within making them confident? Well, we started to talk about donorsearch let’s, let’s focus on that for a minute. So most organizations because they do more than one thing or not monolithic and as we already discussed their constituencies or not model to think either even within a donor community and if you think about major donors for the moment, they’re just not good do bees, they’re generally interested in giving money to some organization that they believe will advance goals that they personally care about. So if you take the goal around major e-giving to be connecting institutional priorities with donor passions and interests and you understand that the people aren’t monolithic and the organizations not monolithic, then it behooves. You to come up with different ways that people can connect, so this is another way that you can actually work with your board to evolve what we call ways in. So for instance, taken orchestra could be a tiny little orchestra, really big workers treyz some people are going to care about performing the traditional repertoire, some people are going to care about commissioning new music, probably a smaller number. Some people are going to care about the space that music is performed it, and you know what? What shape that’s it some people are going to care about kids education programs if there are such some people don’t care about building the audiences of the next generation, and the answer to that is yes, so some donors will connect in one way, and some donors will connect in another but it’s important that for your non-profit that you actually evolved what thes different ways in our so that if i’m, for instance, i’m going out to talk to tony, and i think he’s wants to support kids education, but he really wants to support community outreach. I’m able to actually pivot and talk to you about community outreach. Of course, implicit in all of this, and we could have talked about this at the top of the hour, is they need to listen because you’re going to have any conversation with someone outside your organization. You have to also understand where they are otherwise you’re just pushing things at them. Yeah, yeah, you’re a billboard. So you wanted you wanted to be a conversation, so you have to learn enough about the person you’re talking to two actually take what you’ve learned in terms of these areas focus and rolls and stories and mission in category and no talk to the person in terms that are meaningful to havers you like to rehearse this with boards once you once you farm doing with the tools? Is there some practice? We do a lot of role playing, which is also fun and also better served with wine. Ok, so you can set up small groups. There’s not much that isn’t isn’t helped by wine. I find my favorite is seven young blanc personally, but well, it depends whether your board meetings here in the evening at seven. Thirty in the morning. Yeah, well, bloody mary zahra possibility. No, i would not have not tried, but if their evening now most activities in life, i find very easy, well lubricated by wine. Well, you have an italian last name. I do, um but yes, a lot of these can be when you have after you evolve the kinds of things we’ve been talking about, whether it’s in small groups or people making, you know, presentations to the larger group, anything that has people actually use what we’re talking about rather than just sort of take it in because the more people use the information that we’ve been discussing, the more comfortable they ll get and them or it’s actually in their heads, and they make it their own. So never are we asking anyone to like, you know, memorize words or spew things back, it’s all about understanding that the content and the concepts and then being able to actually talk about it in words that are comfortable your own? Yeah, on your own that connect with the person that you’re actually talking with. How long is this process to build the board, ambassadors, brand ambassadors? Well, these air separate different kinds of exercises that we’ve been talking about it. And there’s, no, no fixed timeline are sequenced to any of this. You could certainly come up with, you know, three or four these workshops, depending on how often you want to meet so you know it, it may be better to do oneaccord er just because the board has other things to do and you have to hijack some time here, or you could do a concentrated session if you had, you know, a two day retreat and you, you know, take some of that time, okay? Yeah, the ways in i mean, they should be already known to the organization. There shouldn’t be anything new here in terms of identifying how you khun be supportive. Well, there’s always a difference between things that exist and actually sort of understanding it and remembering it. So if you, for instance, well, let’s, take a life sciences organization example, um, you may care about the work they’re doing in a specific disease area. I may care about how they’re using new technology. Somebody else may care about how their training scientists of the next generation. So you may know that the organization actually doing those things but you really care about that disease area that you care about. So in order for you to feel comfortable talking about the technologies that i care about, you do have to learn more about it and sort of, you know, soaking it a little bit. All right, yeah, so right, right again, everybody got their own perspective and reason that they’re with the organization. Exactly. We need to share all these and everybody’s converse and in all the ways right, because the goal of an ambassador is to be able to meet people where they are not to just go out, as you said earlier and be a billboard that, you know is inflexible and this is an electronic billboard isn’t going to change any so you need you need the information, the confidence, that fluency and, of course, the content, which is largely what we’re talking about during this hour to, you know, start someplace and be able to pivot to someplace else and, you know, not be flustered in the middle. You, you also work with boardmember is to overcome potential resistance points as their out ambassador rising? Sure. Well, i mean, everything doesn’t go smoothly. We’ve been talking about ways to make boardmember is more comfortable. That doesn’t mean you’re not goingto bump up against some donorsearch prospect that just, you know, says no or i don’t believe in you or comes up with, you know, some reason why, you know he or she should not entertain a conversation with you so there’s no guarantee it’s all going to just, you know, fall into your lap. So again, we keep coming back to role playing and the’s group sessions, but and leadership or bored or the fund-raising staff probably knows the points of resistance, so one thing the board can do is come up with what the arguments are for dispelling that. So this is a good thing to do in small groups, you could even sort of picture seeing a couple people on one side of a table in a couple of people on the other, and, you know, one side has the resistance, and the other side has to with what we’ve just been talking about, you know? The rolls and areas of focus and the impact stories try to convince the, you know, the first party. No, you’re wrong, you know, or give it another thought so that you can in fact, bring some more people into the fold. Okay, um, before we move on anything, anything more we can talk about with the with respect to these resistance points. Anything else there? Well, they’re different for every organization. I mean, we worked and some tell a story tell somebody you worked with has some are harder to overcome than others. I like stories. So for a large ballet company that we worked with. Ah, one of the points of resistance that we we heard often was, you know, i fall asleep hard to forget what the argument for that might be rather than take a nap earlier. Well, the persons of phyllis stein or whatever or, you know, write them up. We were just write them off. I fall asleep at the ballet or i fall asleep at the opera. Are we really going to get anywhere? Not necessarily. Ok, some of these you don’t get anywhere, okay? Or, you know, there aren’t any words or i don’t get the story or for modern ballet, whether isn’t a story, i really don’t get the story, so you have to explain, you probably have to actually sort of inculcated people about what they’re actually seeing in hearing. But there are some things that, yes, it’s harder to overcome. Some things are easier to overcome. So going back to wgbh, the pbs station in boston, one of things they tell you what done before you go kill the gbh story, we’re going to go out for a couple minutes, okay, give your voice a break, and we’ll come back and we’ll go right to the gbh story. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m peter shankman, author of zombie loyalists. It’s! And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back again, too big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, as peter shankman just said, more live listener lovemore live listeners have joined us. Woodbridge, new jersey, east bridgewater, massachusetts, and brooklyn and queens, new york welcome live listen love to each of you schnoll a france bonsoir got shane i india somewhere in the uk uk unfortunately your masked we can’t tell where but we’ll presume it’s england, but live listener love to india and the u k listeners also and, uh also joining us moscow and kano, us, brazil. I apologize if i pronounced that wrong. But you know who you are listening in? Brazil also got italy, but we can’t see where you are. We don’t know what city or town i’ve been to italy four times, so i should be able to say hello in what am i missing? What am i missing? Child? Go must die. I can order a meal and i can find my way to hotels. That’s about by restaurant in hotel italian is about what i speak. You could start with bum jo know when jordan was really good. Thank you, roger. You don’t even have the italian. Name? I don’t. Thank you. Thank you. Um okay, let’s. Ah, so we were overcoming our resistance points. So anything and you were going to tell a story about wgbh? Sorry, that’s where we were. Yeah, well, it’s not so much a story as so it’s a little different from some other non-profits in that it depends not only on individual donors, it depends on sponsorship, so one goal of a particular board is actually to help with sponsorships. So many organizations, of course, do have sponsors and sponsors requires slightly different value proposition than perhaps an individual or a major donor is goingto have. So some of the areas of resistance were because it’s a public television station, for instance, i don’t want to support you because you’re too liberal. Okay, so then the board got together and came up with some arguments around that or it doesn’t congress pay for everything? Well, no, but so that’s a point of ignorance that you could then sort of overcome or isn’t your audience to old? Well depends, you know, too old. For what? And it’s also younger than you think. So there. You know, there are things out there that are often misperceptions that board members will get hit with or in fact, staff will get hit with that one can marshal arguments for so yes, that’s different than falling sleep with the ballet. How does staff support this? This whole ambassador rising process? Well, in a lot of these organizations that were working with, you know, we’re facilitating these sessions, but staff, of course, has to organize them and make them happen, and to our earlier point probably procure the wine. But an interesting side effect of all of this, not the side effect of the wine is how what comes out of these meetings then benefits staff so they’re learning right along with the board so they will be clearer on the organization. They will be clearer on some of these arguments. It will be clear they will learn new stories so there’s a definite, you know, relationship between, you know, staff on board, they’re not just there in a supportive role, it’s actually making their jobs, you know, more successful, actually, even though it’s a bra board process, the staff is vicariously elearning right and that’s a that’s a goal, even though it was not necessarily sort. Of, you know, a stated goal, but we see it happen all the time. You’re sort of raising both sides of the seesaw in the in the course of doing these exercises. Okay, then, it’s not a seesaw anymore. Both sides arising it’s some kind of rising platform. It’s just a seesaw that’s level a level level seesaw. But then that’s not really a seat it’s not really. See? So it doesn’t have a fulcrum in the middle. One side rises and the other side falls. But both sides rise. I don’t know. What’s that a jungle that’s a jungle gym. We’ll find another metaphor. Okay, beating you up, you know you don’t feel well, um, ok, we’ve we’ve we’ve covered the resistance points, and this sounds like something that would be valuable to revisit over over time, not just do once and, you know, kind of put on a shelf well, like brand building, which is also a process and not an event. All of these could be processes and not events. So to the extent that you take some of the exercise we’ve been talking about, instruction them over some period of time. It also serves an organization. Or well, to bring these back at some kinds of you have different periods, first of all, boards change, so everybody isn’t going to be always up to speed in equal way and this notion of fluency like practicing anything else, you know, piano, swimming, whatever you have to do it, so you can certainly come up with a short role playing exercises at some other point. You khun certainly revisit stories you could revisit rolls and areas of focus. All of this stuff could have a sort of rinse and repeat kind of cycle. We talked earlier on about strategic planning, something formal, possibly being a part of this. Do you find many organizations that really don’t have the basics in mastered so that they can carry on further? Well, lots of organizations have the basics and not have a strategic plan, which is fine, you know you’re not always in a strategic planning mode, but if you are, if your organization does have a new strategic plan, all of this is even more important, because there’s no stresses you playing that we bumped into that doesn’t depend on its success by having people think and act in your favor. So all of what we’re talking about on the board of the staff level is helping you to convince people to think and act in your favor, otherwise would be to plant. Just sit on a shelf. Yeah, well, they all depend on some actions. Yeah, that’s something i’ve had guests lament that a strategic plan gets done and then they’re really does just get parked on a shelf and it doesn’t live, doesn’t evolve, and the organization doesn’t really benefit from it. Other than it’s a checkmark the board can now move on to the next project. Right? So if you go back to either the ways in that we were talking about or just being sort of clear on the different aspects of the organization you could sort of back into ok here. These aspects are a strategic plan. What do people have to think and do and feel in order for this to be successful so that they will, you know, realize section to be of the plan. And then how can boardmember sze help? So sure you could bring that in as another discussion topic. Now we just have about thirty seconds left. Roger, but i want you to share with me what you love about the work that you do. Oh, all right, well, i have to think about that for a nanosecond here. I think that the top answer would be because we worked with so many non-profits and they’re in so many different fields that first of all, it’s never boring and there’s always an opportunity to help these different organizations achieve their different missions. You know, we’re all about brand building not just to build the brand, but brand building to help organizations evolve and to better navigate change and that’s just about every non-profit roger stamets president and ceo sam it’s, blackstone associates, they’re at sam it’s dot com and he’s at sam it’s. Sam eat easy on twitter. Roger. Thank you very, very much. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. You. You you must have done quite well next week. Trust me, you really have no choice. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. And by we be spelling supercool spelling bee. Fundraisers. We be e spelling dot com. A creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. Shows social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit medio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Yeah. Buy-in what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine am or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealised took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address. Card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh. No two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for October 28, 2016: Get The Most From Your Board

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Eugene Fram: Get The Most From Your Board

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with calla boma lo bill, i if i heard that you missed today’s show, get the most from your board. Professor eugene fram returns to discuss his latest book going for impact the non-profit director’s essential guide book we’ve got the critical things your board needs to know and pitfalls to avoid. What’s your boards most important job how do you use your board members? Time, wisely and a lot more on tony’s, take two non-profit radio on youtube, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. We be spelling dot com my pleasure to welcome back dr eugene fram he’s, professor emeritus at saunders college of business at the rochester institute of technology. He’s served on twelve non-profit boards and consulted with dozens of others. Jeez, first gene’s first book policy versus paper clips brought him to non-profit radio in twenty thirteen he blog’s at non-profit management, d r fram dot com and there’s hyphens in between those so non hyphen profit hyphen management hyphen d r hyphen fram, dot com and he’s at eugene fram that’s what she’s your twitter jean welcome back. Well, nice to talk to you again. Pleasure to have you back with your with your new book going for impact. What what did you feel? It was necessary with this book versus the policy versus ah paperclips book. Well, i’ve had a lot of experience between then and now, and i wanted to talk about that experience, especially in the movement towards impact, as you well aware, that funders air looking for impact. Ah, or governmental organizations, they’re looking for impact and a lot of non-profits really don’t i understand that, especially non-profit board members, they think if you meet objectives and on develop outcomes, that impact but it’s really not, as you well know, right impact reporting. I’ve heard rumors to that effect. That’s. Okay, that it’s critical, uh, the the, uh, the classic case on that is the newark schools that you’re probably familiar with. So it’s not too far from you in new york city. Uh, is that, uh ah. Sucker burghdoff gave one hundred million dollars. Forty and five years later they had reached their their objectives. But there was no impact on students. Okay, so that’s, the classic lesson that there is a difference between out comes and impacts. Yes. Okay, you’re echoing what a ah, another two time guest has been on well saying it sounds like he’s two timing the show not thirty two times a show, but another guest has been on twice. Dr robert penna makes the distinction between outcomes and impact. Yeah, and more people are. But if you look at the total of non-profits that i meet, some of them will argue that this is only a fad. I had that argue with a a fellow colleague, boardmember uh, just about a year, six months ago on that she was claiming this is just another fad. Let’s forget about it. But actually, this has been, um, around for eight or nine years. At that time, the really thoughtful people in in the non-profit area were saying to me, forget about outcomes. It’s impacts that air that are very important. And where it’s coming really into the four right now i remember in nineteen ninety four or nineteen ninety five. I had a friend who who said that the internet was just a fad hey wouldn’t get an email address felt that that was unnecessary wouldn’t get a website for his company. I don’t know. I don’t know if he’s coming to the i know if he’s coming to the modern age, we don’t talk anymore. I know. Yes, i cut him off. They’re not kill those people around. And unfortunately there on non-profit board. Yeah, ok. Well, yes, i think it’s if it’s any kind of a fad. It’s a critical fad, but i don’t believe that it is. Yes, lots of funders, including individual donors, won’t want to see impact, impact investing. We’re talking about donors as investors. Well, they want to see the impact of their investment. Okay, all right, i i hope listeners, i mean, i need to pay attention to that indeed. Borden metoo okay, so you didn’t feel well. That was really not the emphasis of policy versus paper clips. That was mohr making sure. I mean, i’m summarizing an entire book and we listened to go back and check is you were on to talk about it in twenty. I believe it was november twenty thirteen, but i know it was twenty thirteen. You could research, uh, jeanne franz name at tony martignetti dot com and you’ll find it. So i’m summarizing. So forgive me for trying encapsulate a whole book into a sentence. But it was basically you don’t want your board micromanaging and dealing with details that are not appropriate for them. But rather they should be dealing. It hyre more strategic levels. Yes. That’s. Exactly it. Thank you. You remember? Well, cool for dr. Okay. Professor? Yes. Professor from dahna in rochester institute. Technology. That’s. Pretty good. And it’s. Pretty good that i went to that schlocky carnegie mellon university. So that’s. Another it’s in the same category. I don’t know. I think in a and rochester maybe, maybe, maybe. Ah, well, i guess. Why would you say that? Tonight’s debate that one, okay? Know what would be a seat so that we could be going the other way? Okay. All right. So now what i like about your ah, you’re going for impact. You have you have takeaways at the end of every chapter. I appreciate a little more than a conclusion. It’s a. You know, i like to take aways like not tonight, not that i only read two takeaways. I don’t not that people should buy the book and only metoo takeaways. You’re going to miss you a ton, but i like, you know, it’s a nice touch. I appreciate that, and also short chapters, you know, you’re in, you’re out like two, three pages. I mean summer longer chapters, certainly, but the most are, like two, three pages or so four pages, you know, in a topic and onto the next, because this is for board members, they’re volunteers. They don’t have time for treatises, that’s, right, exactly. All right, it’s. Only one hundred four pages total reading, but it also has a, uh, on index at the back with one hundred fifty different items on it. And if you really need a specific topic, all you need to do is to go to the index and you’ll find out where it’s mentioned throughout the book. Okay, okay. Um, a little more than one o four, though you cut yourself off. You got these? Yeah. You kept making your cut yourself short, it’s actually, like one hundred eleven and ah, one quarter i would say thank you. I’m glad. Because last seven. Glad your fact checking. Yeah, we’re all about and what some people did last night on the phone. All right? Yes. Last night was the last debate we’re pre recording. Yeah, i know. You know, those last seven and a quarter page is air important don’t don’t all right, um okay. So we’re going to talk about some of the things that were, you know, we only can hit highlights because i want you to listen to shit by the book for going to say, uh, we’re going to talk about you got six essentials that board members need to know we’re going to talk about that, of course, uh, we got some pitfalls to avoid way got the most important job that you’re bored has on, then using your board members time wisely and and utilizing an advisory board. So those that’s what we’re going to cover, i’ll tell you what, let’s, go out a little early for our break. Now, i’ve just tease the whole show, and when we come back, you and i have the whole hour together remaining talk about that and i know you’ve got some stories to tell. So jeanne, i know you’ll stay with us every else doing that i’ll be here, i know everyone else do the same. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Okay, dr fram. Let’s. Uh, hi. Yes. Okay. Let’s, get, uh, let’s. Get into this. We got we got six essentials. And, er, the first one is be aware of rose colored glasses what’s your what’s, your concern there? Well, there are a number of different concerns there. One i find that quite often, uh, that, uh, non-profit boards will tolerate a mind this size store type of ceo, uh, because they’re comfortable with the media. Ocracy in other words, they want to be good, but not great. And you hear that expressed every once in a while that says, well, when something goes wrong, well, you really can’t expect that of a non-profits yeah, this is not the same as for-profit mediocrity mediocrity, andi. And if you take a look at it from the point of view of some board members and remember, i only speak as a boardmember i’ve never been a needy, never been in the management of a and non-profit giving you the board members point of view. So when you do that here, you’re really, uh, moving towards the bottom, all right instead. Of the top. And so you gotta expect excellence from your ceo and the management staff as much as they can do within the finances that they have or to develop creative ideas. Uh, that will take the organization to the to the future. Okay, now, but you’re also speaking as a as a professor of business former retired professor of business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you bring in that room that respect you see and like in policy versus paper clips, i only seat major differences between the non-profit on the prophet and that is the non-profit has, uh, mission, vision and values as as their objective. The for-profit obviously has to have is the profit motive s o that is the major differences i see and and everything else to me is very much the same. Okay, excellent. All right, so so you’re you’re your your experience as a a business professor. Converts, i mean, and and i’ve also had, uh, for-profit board experiences too. Okay? Yes. Not quite as many, though you aren’t twelve non-profit points in only four or five of them, for they range from ah, national corporation listed corporations. Tio start up. Okay. You credentials are unquestioned. Don’t worry. Okay, you’re you’re on non-profit radio your bona fide. Okay, good. I want to make sure my non-profit bonified are clear. Yeah. No, no, you’re, you’re good. Okay, um, let’s talk about the next one. You have, um, being wary of the silent boardroom, or when i call it, i that’s what you call it? I’m calling it that god. Yeah. I’m concerned about deference to directors. Yeah. That’s mine. I’m adding that what? What? What’s the problem here. Too much deafness, what’s what’s the problem? Well, this all started a couple years ago when i was doing some consulting work and a young boardmember said to me, hey, you said, you know, i wished we had mohr uh what he said, conflict of discussion, he didn’t need to say me, i mean, to say in the extreme but he said more discussion in in the board room of the issues because what he was seeing in that particular situation is that the, uh, the executive committee er would make a recommendation from people’s would ask, um, passive questions. And then they would pass the emotion on de so he didn’t see any, uh, any riel discussion going on there or real probing of the issues? S so you know, when he said that i developed this idea of the silent board board room and this is very typical, and i ask your listeners if you’re a non-profit director when’s the last time you saw a person say, i’m going to give a no vote to that ah proposition, because i don’t want to be liable either personally or professionally for what the majority has saved in here on dh make sure you put my no vote in the in the in the minutes, okay? I had to do it about a year or so ago, and i stopped the whole the whole process with that statement, but typically, if the president wanted a ceo wants it, or the board chair wants that people exceed to that very, very easily, yeah, alright, too much difference given right? Not not robust, the conversation not really duitz not real due diligence and, of course, your point about liability that directors are potentially liable for them, the deeds and misdeeds of the failing to upper failing to act and misdeeds of the of the organization there, there, fiduciaries they have a legal. They have legal duties. Uh, yeah. Now ah, this all comes, then becomes part of a culture. You know, the typical even business person will say, well, i really don’t want to go against the board chair or i don’t want to go. I don’t want to go against the ceo on this on duh on and it just becomes a part of, for instance, the university trusty came to me once. And he said, we were asked to comment on a particular program which happened to be in the business area. And you can, uh he knew that i had some expertise in that area. And he said, i when i listen to the, uh, to the people there, uh, they were all saying, yeah, let’s go with it, he says, but deep down in my heart, i felt that this was actually reducing the quality of the program. And he said, but early in the hand, i didn’t want to be negative, so i went along with it. So she’s kind of doing a confessional to may, right? But that’s, what you will often find in these situations why should i cause conflict? Why? Should i be the outstanding a negative person in the area. So forth in the situation i said in the committee meeting, i says, if you pursue this and my ass and i gave my reasons for it, i’m going teo a vote no on it. Okay? And then i never heard another thing about it after that, right? But you you have to make the vote that that you’re you believe is right that your conscience guides you two. You have my conscience there, right? Right? Right. Because i felt instead of putting the money and for what they were planning to do with it was a legitimate type of thing. I’ve felt that it had been a it should have gone into programs. Now you can overdo that, okay? And really cut out the over set, uh, down the overhead. But on the other hand, sometimes that overhead is needed, the payment is needed. I want to move to the next one. But before i do, i just want to point out you mentioned deference to the board chair. The ceo, um another. Another together. Pardon me, nto and each other. And i wanted to mention also something you point out the book is about difference, teo major donors who may be on your board that’s always right, that that could be a real problem. That’s a tricky one putting putting big donors on your board. You know, nobody wants to upset the apple cart risk-alternatives bing risk the payment by the pledge payments that have been promised, etcetera, um, you have to you have to tread carefully. Alright. Yeah, very, very carefully, andi. And you might have to compromise your values in some instances, but there’s only so far. You you should go because you still have the mission that needs to be achieved on this let’s. Move her in kapin a typical question teo typical type of donation is people will may offer you property, but the property has value, but they may pace restrictions on it, and you can’t necessarily sell it and you might be able to use it. But who’s going to pay for it in the long run out that property so far that’s a typical situation really real estate khun b could be a tricky issue, a lot of due diligence required around that, whether whether to even have that, whether to accept it in the in the first place on we’ve got i’ve got a video about that on the youtube channel, which i’m going to talk about tony steak too. I’ve got i’ve got a video on yeah, about the due diligence required for real estate gifts. Okay, jean, we need to move on because i want to i want to make sure we get everything in this hour. Next of the six essentials you described, what makes a non-profit board great? Go ahead to find to find great for us. Well, i’ve handed it something. One is the quality of the board dialogue and discussion on duh that’s. Uh, and it should be at the policy level or this or the strategic level at all time would say should be ninety percent at that level, and but you’ll find that boards get quite comfortable with discussing operations because they’re more interesting. Well, that’s the policies in policy that’s the policy versus paper across our street strategy, i have yet to find the person who goes on ah goes home and says to a significant other or her significant other oh my god, we had a just of tremendous evening. And she lt’s a he or she will say, what did you do? Oh, my god. We just discussed policy and strategy and fascinating. Yeah. Find that person, will you let me know? All right. What else? What else? Hallmarks of greek board. Tough questions. The ability. Teo, drill down. And teo, talk about things that might be had happened with the decision. Okay, andi, what air the unintended consequences of the decision. Ok, so these all need to be laid out and that’s where the tough questions there. Okay. And what else? Uh, well, you need a board diversity and experience. Unfortunately, many non-profit board members are made up of for friends, family and neighbors. Okay? And you rarely see intra prin nouriel uh, board members, people who haven’t an enterpreneurs, rials streak in them or willing to take some some modest risks. When it comes to risks, the typical board will back off because they don’t want to be risked in a situation in which they might be liable. So so those are the three top things, as i see out out of that area. Okay, hallmarks of a great board on. Okay, let’s. Move. Teo, our fourth are our fourth essential straight straight talk about the board members responsibilities. Go ahead. Okay. One is she obviously have used fiduciary responsibility. Uh, overviewing the board, but at the same time not micromanaging it on dh. Also understanding the difference that we talked about between outcomes and impacts is one thing. Shall i go on? You have another one? Yeah. Yeah. Fund-raising yes. Boards have a responsibility for fund-raising, but you have to have, uh but, uh, except if you might delegate it to a foundation to fundraise for you and that is that is a perfectly legitimate approach, but boards totally have a responsibility for fundrasing, but there. But as a group, they’re really not effective. Okay? It usually takes about three or four people who are comfortable with fund-raising on are willing to drive it. Okay? No. And, uh, you know, that’s kind of the facts of life of jean. Do you like to see these? These expectations about director responsibilities in a written document for new board members off course. And, for instance, i saw one for a, uh, for a human service organisation in which their expectations for the board we’re all listed and pretty much followed. What? I had a policy for what i have in policy versus paper clips, but they they left off the fund-raising, but they had a separate foundation set up to handle fundrasing. No. Okay, so that’s, that that’s acceptable. That’s, that’s. Perfect that’s find acceptable. Okay, so they’re difficult when you get into foundations. You have to, you know, and and can lead to a lot of problems where the foundation says what we raised the money. We want to determine how it’s spent. Oh, that, you know, the way it works, right? Okay. But you even if you know, even if there is a foundation the the organization’s board members may have ah, ah, personal fund-raising, you know, give or get requirement to the foundation. Yeah, but i just want to point the example i gave you a hundred. A zing was not listed in the area of board’s responsibility. Okay, right. But they left it all to the foundations. They see. It is the board responsibility. But there might also be a personal requirement to give. Yeah, there might be a personal environment for the board. Teo getter give type of thing way that we can talk about later. I have here. Okay. Now, there’s there needs to be a good amount of trust between the board and the staff. Yes. And the board in the ceo? Yeah. Yeah, well and okay. That’s hinting at something we’re gonna get to write. But now another thing. I’ve kind of abstracted what i think they’re the important ones. You have a legal responsibility that quite often boards don’t even know about, uh uh for non-profits they have to live better different from a four for-profit board in a legal way. Otherwise their quarter, their corporations the same as a for for-profit businesses. And one is, of course, in the non-profit area you have the annual iris form nine ninety and the board has a legal responsibility. Teo to review that and make sure it’s correct before it is submitted to the irs. Uh, they will even have a system for getting e-giving extensions. If you can’t meet the data on on this. The other one that few people know about are the intermediates is the, uh i r s is intermediate sanctions act, and they know about it in the sense that if you pay above average wages to the ceo uh, you can be really responsible and fine for you, but what they don’t know there are a whole host of other things related. Teo uh, the intermediate sanctions act. For instance, if you sell a piece of property below market value, the board and the management can have and i additional taxes paid on their personal texts that bills for for the for doing for voting, for improving it and doing it something something below market fto sort of an insider is insider trading basically, uh, it’s equivalent to the insider trading? Oh, it doesn’t even have to be insider. For instance, if if you sell a ah a ah, a piece of property below value to a let’s. Say a person who serves on a committee on the board. Ah, serves as a volunteer to the organization you can. You can, uh you can define you took this. Have at a tax bill added to your bill. They’re contributing writer. I have an article thoroughly explaining that if any of the people were interested in it, if you send it to my ah requested on my at eugene fram and send me an address. Where i can? Well, i can send it through regular e mail. I’d be happy to send it to them. Okay. Okay. Cool. That’s your that’s. Your twitter id. All right. Okay, i need you. I need you to sit tight for a minute while i take a little business for our sponsors and delighted who’s. Hang on, just hang on right there because we got more with professor fram coming up first. Pursuant, they’ve got another free resource for you this’s. Their donor line report card. It will help you evaluate the health of your donor pipeline spot. Possible weaknesses and identify areas of your greatest opportunity. It is an infographic, and it’s under resource is at pursuant dot com. Check out their infographic. The donor pipeline report card. We’ll be spelling spelling bees for non-profit fund-raising they’re not like any other spelling bee that you’ve seen or been to there’s live music and dancing and stand up comedy fund-raising, of course and spelling you could check out their video. These are ideal events for millennials. Great fund. We be e spelling dot com now, tony steak too. Have you checked out? Non-profit radio on youtube? There’s there are over two hundred videos on the real tony martignetti channel. Lots of interviews over a dozen playlists. Some of them are event fund-raising dahna relations playlist, social media, standup comedy, bi weekly videos and there’s. A bunch of others. Yeah. Find what you need. Look for it on the youtube channel. Subscribe my channel israel r e l tony martignetti you could just go to youtube and search twenty martignetti on the only tony martignetti doing anything substantial on youtube. I regret, though, that you have to put in marketmesuite eye, and then you still get like martin martinez. You know, marketmesuite and then i pop up, so but i’m the only tony martignetti pops up, but you got to get that g in there. That’s tony’s, take two. Thanks for checking me out on youtube. Okay, gene, that was okay. Appreciate your indulgence. Thank you know, uh uh, the other a couple more issues. Okay, only one more because i see we’ve covered the trust point here. Go ahead. One more on board members really have to understand who who the board represents. And the borg does not represent the staff quite often. They think they have to look out for the welfare of the staff. Obviously they have to look out for the welfare of the staff that they want to be productive. But their obligations are made to the various stakeholders. It could be the community. It could be the trade association. It khun b to the, uh to the mission of the organization. Obviously, esso and and the people related to the mission is ah, is the one that’s most most common for enough for non-profit not to the staff. Okay, okay, i understand that. And that’s ah, you know, we don’t weigh can’t have staff doing and runs around their vice president or their ceo and going to the board members that’s, that’s all no, no, i want to move on way. Tio, your last two are what the board should expect from management and what management should expect from the board. So i don’t know if we can maybe deal with ease the same time. But wait, let’s, take the first. You know, doing the order. You got it in the book. What? The board should what the board should expect from management and you start with, you know, no surprises, no spin on bad news must rise. So just say a little about no surprises, no spin. Well, let me, uh, let me no surprises there. Spin. Let me start that with a war story. I was on a board of a non-profit which was a very active non-profit and serving its clients well and serving, uh, it’s mission well, however, the executive committee decided that they wanted to acquire a for-profit in another city, and they had enough finances to be able to do that, and so they went ahead and do that did it? And then they came to the board and ask them teo, to approve the acquisition after they had already signed the contract and every everything else and the reason they did it, they felt there was a banker on the, uh, on the executive committee who knew all about these things, and it turned out the banker did not know our about it. For instance, the banker didn’t tell them you don’t give the buyer full payment, and until you can see that they can fit into the nonprofit organization when you you stretch the payments out so forth. So what happened is that i went for ah state on the on the board for oh, maybe another month or two. And i resigned and used the usual excuse of work pressures because i just didn’t want to abolish the whole whole thing up, actually, you. Could have. You could have had a a legal situation there if you really wanted to pursue it on. And it worked out that way. It was just a terrible act was acquisition, but let me ask you wait. Owner, the former owner wanted to run the er the division, the way she wanted to run it instead of the way the acquiring non-profit wanted to run it. That seems so i don’t know what happened beyond it. But there was evidently a lot of conflict there. What? Why? I have to ask you a question. Well, hold on. Hold on. Altum. Why? Why did you not tell them directly? What the reason for your resignation was ok. I took the easy way out. Ok? Why wine? Because, uh uh, you got me all right. I took these because i felt that they were doing well enough, and i didn’t want to muddy the water. Okay? Okay. Okay. And that’s typical of of, uh, of a poor who looks out for the welfare of what they’re doing. They were doing a good job in the base organization. But the expenditure for the, uh, for the acquisition just turned out terrible. Ok, i appreciate you’re appreciate your being honest now under on it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. Okay, now wonder what the board should expect from management. We don’t have time to cover all the points that air that are part of that. So it just one more? I just couple. Okay, now i just want to cover one more in this, and then we’re gonna move on to what? What management should expect from the board. But talk about bad news must rise. Well, well, often, uh, people board members will keep bad news from the ceo or the staff will keep bad news from the ceo and s o uh, cia management has toe actually seek bad nose on this. For instance, one of the things that i recommend the people right now eyes make sure you have a whistle blower hotline for years. You owe your staff or even perhaps board members who don’t want toe get involved with, uh, causing conflict within the organization, but feel something needs to be checked out there. Ok? Eso eso you you have to. If you’re a wise ceo or board chair or boardmember you look for these things on dh you have to have the venues opened for them. All right, let’s, move to what management should expect from the board of the last of the last of our six essential wait, hold on. We don’t have again. You know, we don’t have time to cover everything listeners. You gotta buy the book. Of course. You know, we can just summarize, i wantto suggestion. I want e i want to focus on i wanna focus on something we just touched on. Briefly trust, trust and confidence. The mutual, the the that the management should expect the trust and confidence of the board. Yes, you have to have that because quite often, uh, the attitude is, well, they’re not-for-profits people. They’re not for-profit people aside talked about before. And you have to have to trust and confidence that the ceo is a competent manager. And there are ways of doing that. One of them when we get to advisory committees, uh, can talk a little more about that, too. But there has to be the trust that the ceo and his direct reports and others are competent managers, depending on the size of the agency, because the traditional point of view is that they’re not competent. If they were competent, they could be working for for-profit organised, i think that i hate that nonsense. I do two on, i’ve seen very competent people, wonderful people, you know, my traditional comment about the people in the nonprofit world, especially these there that they figured really stand ten feet tall rule that’s, the way i always look at it, no matter if their their case worker or if they’re a ceo when they do their job well, they tend to stand ten feet tall and there are a lot of people in that category, of course, no that’s, not it love that. All right, all right. We’re going to go. Teo. Teo, the pitfalls you’ve got, you got many chapters on potential pitfalls. We’re going to talk about the the the bad poor practices for border for boards. So why don’t you want to just start us off? Go ahead. Okay. One is dumbing down board with croup. Mint uh, where you take, uh, what who’s available and, er on that khun b anybody? For example, i recently encountered a situation, and i saw it myself with that board chair. In the nominations committee recommended a particular person who may accepted simply on the basis that his wife recommended he be aboard nhis no do deal is it’s so far, by the way, he lasted about two years burghdoff had a lot of problems, is and that is just, in my estimation, is just terrible. Okay, i understand. Wait, hold on, hold on. Because again, you got so much in this chapter. There isn’t time to cover. What do you remember? Everything you see and hear? Oh, yeah. Get they get stuff. Yeah, yeah, come on. You okay? You know, haley paid a fancy prices this. You know, this is a prepared show. Come on here. So, that’s our failing to this. I hear this a lot. So that’s why i’m flagging it, failing to delegate sufficient managerial responsibility to the ceo because this gets sticky. This gets to your policy versus paper clips so don’t can’t recite ceo and see him as her as a competent manager. Yes. Alright on that. That goes to what you were just saying about presuming competence and excellence not you know you’d be somewhere else if you if you want, let me give you a story on that one? When i was head of a, uh, board chair of a non-profit in rochester, we also had on the board of ah, the human human resource director of eastman kodak at that time. And so i wanted to make sure that we and i felt we had a competent person and but i was receiving static from other board members such as, well, his response. They had one hundred. The the organization had one hundred employees and hay on the comment. Wass well, hey, has the responsibility of the system pastor at my church. You know, uh, so but fortunately, i had the hr director from eastman kodak, and he says no. He said this man’s responsibility is equivalent to what a good, uh, middle level manager at kodak would have. Okay? And he should be paid accordingly. Ok. So as a result, i was able to get the salary that i wanted for for the ceo. But it took that in order to that power to get it right. All right, all right. And there’s there’s a lot more in there. There’s. Not more in that chapter pitfalls. But i want to get teo, don’t make sure we cover everything. I want to get to the most important job for a bored. What is it? What is it? The most important job for the for the board, uh, is ah eyes, i think ceo selection and overviewing okay. Hiring hiring the right ceo, hiring the right ceo and overviewing the person making sure that he looks at you as a partner. That’s. Why? I like overviewing the ceo and the board is a partnership. A relationship? It is not a boss. Subordinate relations look any good ceo no knows that. Uh, hey, here. She can be fired by the board. But if you give a develop a culture where the two are working together as partners and that both people will make mistakes from time to time. Okay, but that partnership is very, very important. Okay, okay. We’re going to go out for break, gene. And when we come back, you’re not going to talk about the last two. Will have just about six minutes or so to do that. Ondo? No, little bloomerang that like a little more than nine minutes or so to cover our last two. How to use the board members. Time, wisely and when and how to utilize an advisory board. Stay with us. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m jonah helper, author of date your donors. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Time for live listener love we’ve got to send out the love because love is always in the studio through the internet and interweaves of the of the nets and the woman’s and the weaves the love goes out phone lines i don’t know, you know it goes out so if you’re listening live love to you, i’m very, very grateful that you’re with us if you’re in japan, which is a very good chance you are because there’s always japan japanese checking in konnichi wa for our chinese listeners and also taiwan, always checking in ni hao and south korea also very loyal listeners on your haserot comes our ham nida, if you’re listening in the us, the love goes out just thank you. What more can i say? Glad you’re with us following quickly on the heels of live listen love it’s got to be the pod class pleasantries did i just say pod classed? I think i just iconoclast the podcast pleasantries. They always go out to our over ten thousand. I think we may be pushing twelve thousand. I gotta look at the stats. God, don’t let me look at this every week or even every month but ah, down with the the download bandwith has been expanding, so it may be more than two, but podcast pleasantries if you listening via podcast doesn’t matter how many thousands there are pleasantries to you and the affiliate affections for our many am and fm station listeners seated strategically throughout the country in carefully selected markets, our am and fm station listeners affections to you, our affiliate listeners. All right, jean, we’re going to get teo. I’m well, thank you for checking in boardmember time should not be squandered. Is that correct? That is, that is absolutely correct. Because they need thio understand you appreciating what you are doing and making sure that, uh, that they’re spending their time wisely. Okay. That’s not always the case. Uh, for example, boards tend to want to a culture eight new board members to the culture of the board. For example, if you have a financial analyst it’s likely that they might ask the person to help the bookkeeper instead of saying, why don’t you help us develop a long term financial plan for the organization? The culture is that the finances, finances, bookkeeping, not financial analysis that will take you. To the future. Okay, that gets into the micro management a bit too, if you’re having a boardmember look over the shoulder, have a staff member. Oh, all right, you have some very simple tips, but i think, you know, worth repeating because because i’ve been to board meetings that this is not done so the stuff needs to be reminded board meetings should begin and end on time. That’s right on dh er people respect that, and they they respect what what that means to them and things of that nature go ahead as we’re not just talking about these old tapes, i don’t i don’t think you specifically mentioned agendas, but nor do i like to see in agendas is is a time limit for each discussion item on the agenda, and you take a step further. You don’t just keep it there in parentheses next to the item on the agenda you appoint a timekeeper, a timekeeper. He’s not was not running definitively, not agendas should be sent out well ahead of time with the briefing materials. Most ofthe that i’ve seen is, uh, the agenda in the briefing material come to you day before or sometimes. Two days before so if you’re busy, really don’t have a chance to really study and and know what’s happening. As as a plant e-giving consultant, i am occasionally invited to board meetings to present on status, you know our plans and dance and, you know, you can tell first of all, some board members come in and they’re studiously going through the folder that was sent to them of the binder that was sent to them. You can tell that this is the first time they’re looking at it. That’s right? That’s, right. That’s done a robbery. That’s not how you make robust. Good decision. Yeah, yeah. They’re flipping through pages in the ten minutes before the meeting opens. That’s, that’s. Awful, but oh, yeah, but you see that all the time, you know? Well, it’s, uh, you’ll even see that sometime in for-profit boards to go on. But that gets kind of dangerous there because you might vote on something that will yield some fancy liability for you. Fancy liability. All right. So you like to see things? Not only before the meeting like a week in advance, but also minutes, minutes done within a week of the meeting ending? Yeah. That’s right. That’s right, because contemporaries me contemporary iss meeting’s minutes are very, very important to cover you and to make sure that they are all correct is very important. For instance, if i wouldn’t wantto i don’t want to emphasize this. If i were to vote no on something, i want to see it there at that time. So i’m on record that i didn’t think that this is a good idea. Okay, so you don’t really like waiting until the package for the next board meeting to get those units to get the minutes from the last meeting? Yeah, wait, what we have with the internet and with email and whatever, uh, there’s no reason for it except for the ceo will say, well, i just don’t have the personnel to do that. Well, uh, you auto find ways of getting that done. Okay? Uh, in each ah, and for getting it done. Yeah, so that, you know, the ceo always say, well, we don’t have the money for it, but when you press hard enough, if it’s really important, the ceo will find it. All right, we need to move to our last topic. How and when to use an advisory board. Now we just have about two minutes or so to cover this. So please bear that in mind. You have you have shortened long term purposes for an advisory board. Pardon? You recommend that advisory board to be either short term or long term? Yes. Okay. All right. Uh, it’s, your term you need people for a specific project, maybe building a on extension on the bill aboard. So you need construction people or people like that who can help you on that? That short term? Ah, long term. You want people who get to know you on and get to know the mission of the organization over over a time period. And that should be a person who is not it’s, not advisory to the board, but should be advisory to the ceo because the ceo has the responsibility for taking action. And if it’s advisory to the c e o of course, he’s going to read rejects some of the ideas except some of the ideas. And you want teo have somebody who can take action and initiate some of them. Now he has. The ceo has an obligation to report what the advisory board is saying, but i think the ceo needs to be left alone with the advisory board so he or she can let their hair down in terms of what they’re thinking about long term and what their current problems the are today, we’re going to leave it there. Gene the okay, the book is going for impact the non-profit directors essential guide book. You’ll find it on amazon. You can tell it’s packed with information we could just scratch the surface. Dr jean fran, i want to thank you very, very much. Well, thank you very much for the invitation. And i look forward to listening to it. My pleasure. And again, you’ll find jean at eugene fram fr am and his block is non-profit management d r fram, dot com and there’s a hyphen in between each of those items. All right. Okay, fine. Go. Thank you. And thank you for the questions. My pleasure, jean. Thanks for being with me. Okay. Bye. Next week. Amy sample ward returns. She’s been on maternity leave. She’s coming back alive. You bet that i guarantee you she’s coming back if you missed any part of today’s. Show. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant those online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be e spelling dot com. Our creative producers climb meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein. Stuck. My voice is cracked again. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe. Add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell you put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for March 11, 2016: Policy vs. Paper Clips

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Eugene Fram: Policy vs. Paper Clips

Eugene Fram is author of the book “Policy vs. Paper Clips.” He introduces you to a corporate model of board governance to cut out the minutia from agendas so your board can focus where it should, on policy and planning. He’s professor emeritus at Rochester Institute of Technology, (Originally aired on April 26, 2013.)

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week lynette johnson in virginia, she tweeted, listen to an old tony martignetti podcast with professor john list on the way to work today. Great stuff. Thanks. Thank you, lynette. That was from the february eighth twenty thirteen show and i’m gonna have to replay that one. I’m glad you brought it to my attention. That’s a very good that’s, a very good one. Lynette johnson, listener of the week thank you so much for your love of non-profit radio we have a new affiliate station welcome w l r i ninety two point nine fm in lanchester, that’s, lancaster and chester counties, pennsylvania. They’re a pacifica radio affiliate also non-profit radio is there on saturdays and sundays at ten a m welcome wlos tow our family of affiliates and welcome to the listeners in southeast pennsylvania. They’re in lanchester love it! Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of osteo conroe dysplasia if i heard even a skeleton of the idea that you missed today’s show policy versus paper clips eugene fram is author of the book policy versus paper clips. He introduces you to a corporate model of board governance to cut out the minutia from your agendas so you’re bored can focus where it should on policy and planning. He’s, professor emeritus at rochester institute of technology and that originally aired on april twenty sixth. Twenty thirteen that’s a great shows from twenty thirteen on tony’s take two my dream realised we’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuing dot com and by crowdster online and mobile fund-raising software for non-profits now with apple pay crowdster dot com eugene fram coming up here he is from april of twenty thirteen of course i said lots of good shows from twenty thirteen. There were lots of good shows in twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen and we’ve had several in twenty sixteen also. So are you looking at the non-profit radio archive? Just go to tony martignetti dot com search whatever key words you need and all the shows related will show up. Here’s your jean fran, showing up my pleasure now to welcome eugene. Fran. He is professor. Emeritus at rochester institute of technology he’s, a consultant, board chair and volunteer director for non-profits he has authored a co or co authored more than hundred twenty five journal articles on marketing and non-profit and corporate governance, he wrote the book policy versus paper clips, which you confined on amazon to introduce a governance model that we’re going to talk about on twitter he’s at eugene fram f r a m just like the oil filter eugene fram, welcome welcome good morning to you. Good morning to you, it’s it’s morning in california on the day that we’re recording. Very early morning so thank you for joining me this early from the left coast it’s. My pleasure, jean are you are you part of the fram filter family bunny chance? Unfortunately i am not you’re not those things still around. I don’t own a car. I haven’t had a car for years. We are fram oil filters still around. Do you know what? I think? They’re still on the web? I seen them. Okay, you have but that’s, not you. I’m sorry on that’s. Not name that’s. Alright. I’m not part of the great martignetti liquor family in boston. And new england either. That’s. Okay, the both of us are suffering from famous names and chronic under representation in the in those wealthy families. Yes, we’ve been born with huge handicap. I’m still trying to overcome mind. I hope you have overcome your one hundred twenty five articles. Yeah, somewhat. But, you know, my ambition is to go to a thousand. Okay. Well, now that you’re in retirement, you have more time for that. But yes, that’s true. Professor emeritus jean what? What’s what’s happening with boards? Why? Why do you feel they are missing the mark? Well, boards from a governance point of view non-profit boards and from the government’s point of view frequently have retained the old, uh nineteenth or twentieth century model off of governance where the board has a multitude of committees and tries to eventually micromanage the uh uh, the staff in the process, nothing gets done or the organization, although it has potential as stunted growth. Ah, if it in that way, because volunteers like myself and again as i talk, i’m not talking as a non ah non-profit ceo or e d i’m talking as a volunteer director. We can’t be there. Day today, and we can’t, uh, manage the minutia that it’s no, are they not necessarily monisha or the work that really needs to be done and we can’t really manage truly professional staff, we can help, we can advise we can help. We have an obligation to set policy, but ah, but we’re simply part timers or some person has described that we’re birds of flight through the through the organization because we’re there, uh, traditionally three to six years, and the staff stays and works and works under different boards. Your concern is that despite the well meaning board on dh and individual members having great potential and the best interests of the organization heart, you feel they’re actually through these old models stunting the organization? Absolutely. And i think it could be proven when you look at any number of organizations which has suffered this way. Do you want to give an example or to, uh well, i’ve consulted with a number of them on, but i don’t want yeah, i’ll talk t o generalities specific organizations where, uh, the the board actually got ah, where the volunteers on the board actually got involved to the level. That they were they were managing departments. S o if the decision had to be made, the department had first went to the volunteer uh ahh advisor or whatever they call him at the time and then went to the e d with the advisers either decision or concern or whatever the department had wanted. So the organization didn’t grow until they finally change. They finally changed the model full time employees reporting to a parttime volunteer diver. Person. Exactly. Oh, my all right. Let’s, let’s. Start with the beginning of the process and we will get to the corporate model that you lay out in your book way. We’ll get to that let’s. Take a couple of discreet sort of time line points and along a board members life cycle with the organization like i’d like to start with recruitment makes sense, i think. What can we what can we improve around our board? Recruitment? Well, the chief executive officer where, whether they be a nadie or a president ceo, as i suggest, needs to have more contact with the board with the individual board members, i think. Ah ah, they have tto have more contact between meetings that has to be in often and formal. Ah, and they have tio they need to get to know each other. And i suggest, uh, that, uh, they actually made quarterly to informally discuss the concerns and the challenges that the chief executive officer is facing. I, uh there are various techniques for doing this. I recently read in the harvard business review, uh, a recommendation that the ah ah o r one for-profit ceo actually sends a e mail out to the board every sunday morning. Uh, just laying out very briefly, uh, in this case, his concerns about what’s going on in the organization and what new ideas? He has a c as he indicated in the article, he says, i don’t worry about grammar right now. Gina, i’m trying to focus on recruitment, so maybe maybe in in in this board meeting is often is you you’re suggesting they’re identifying gaps in the board and maybe they can try to fill those gaps with new board members? Yeah, that’s, right. Okay. And but as they’re going through that recruiting process to identifying skills that they need that the board is lacking, how should they be talking to potential? Board members well, they should talk to board members that what they do is to value their contributions of time, the most important thing, and they make ah, meaningful use off the board members time. Ah, they don’t ask the boardmember the potential boardmember to do frivolous things, uh, such as stuff envelopes or our or get involved with watching slide shows or commenting on slide shows as one that i’ve heard of s o that that they focus on, uh, they focus on the policy and the strategic issues of the organization. Okay, we’re going to take a break now, jean, and when we return, we’ll keep talking about the little about the life cycle of the boardmember and then we’ll get into the corporate model that you lay out in policy versus paper clips, so thank you, gene is going to stay with us, and i hope you do, too. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Oppcoll welcome back with jean fran, and we’re talking about policy versus paper clips and focusing your board where the attention, where its attention ought to be on policy and planning and things like that. So jean question about in the recruitment process, the expectations around time and fund-raising for potential board members were still now just talking about the potential member what should, what should a non-profit be revealing about time and fund-raising well, they first ought to be very clear about the time commitment expected, and they ought to delve into a deep discussion with the boardmember on this because i’ve just consulted with a organization that has recruited some very fine people who are working on people who are building their careers, and they lay out the they discuss the the time commitment for the organisation, but in the final analysis, after being on the board for three to six months of the people have, uh, huge work commitments, and they say, j i just can’t meet the time commitment. Oh, and so they had to restructure the board in a way that allows the chairman much more responsibility. I think that a board chair should have and what about the fund-raising expectations? Uh, well, not all board members will enjoy fund-raising. I think it’s necessary to find those who might enjoy it or have experience with it to make some commitment to it. Andi, do you want to see that as a dollar amount or more flexible based on the individual based on what the individual strengths are, if they have contacts? That’s one thing, uh, if if they have aa dollars to give or you are in the are able teo network with people of substantial wealth, that is another thing. Okay, but there ought to be. Do you agree with this one hundred percent participation personal at some level for for all board members? Yes. That’s necessary? Because foundations, when you go for grants often look at that as a board commitment, showing board commitment that they have made the financial commitment to the organization. Should these expectations be in writing for the potential boardmember? I think so. But i think it depends upon the culture of the board and they understandings that air developed at the beginning. If you, uh, if they, uh, if the board gets a lot of questions after after being on the board for a while about those commitments, maybe it’s necessary to put it in into writing, but not necessarily a legally binding tract of oh, no, no, no, no. Okay, but just something that here’s what we’re expecting and please, you know, indicate that you’ve reviewed it. So we’re all have well have consistent expectations, right? We’re all on the same page, okay? Eso then moving. Teo orientation. If you recruited the right people, what should board orientation look like? Well, orientation, uh, should take place. I would say over i again size and complexity of the board, about a six month period. Oh, and in the sense that there might be a half day or a couple our orientation about the organization and its mission is a go mission vision and values. Ah, and any other details that they they have to be concerned with. But then other issues ought to be, uh, brought up for the new board members as they as they progress through their first six months during this period, the, uh, the board chair and the ceo. I need to be readily available to answer questions from from the new board members, so that they become fully apprised of the issues as they go along a two day board, uh, section in which a lot of information is thrown at the person, uh, simply doesn’t stick its a matter of repetition, understanding and going through the process themselves. And as you know, we all learned best when the when the problems are immediately in front of us. For example, with board liabilities, a lot of boards will bring in a lawyer and and lay out the potential liabilities for a boardmember in their particular situation, uh, they hear a lot about the laws, but they if you’re not a lawyer, they frequently forget it. Uh, so when an issue comes up ah, that the that there might be a a personal liability in in the situation, it’s up to the ceo and the board chair to remind the new people and refresh the older people that this particular situation might be affected by this particular legal precedent. Would you put new board members on a committee right away, or would you keep them at large? I would keep, um, at large unless they have a strong desire to go on a committee and of course. A sze yu know i suggest that there are really only three committees needed. Yeah, on this is a way of getting into the corporate model. What are those three committees? Well, first that’s. Very simple. You have a planning and resource committee. Uh, that looks forward. It looks towards the strategic plan. It looks towards the resources that i have both human resource is and financial resource is it looks forward to the planning that is, that is necessary. It also has a special responsibility that the other committees don’t have. And that is to is teo monitor and mentor ad hoc committees. Any man, uh, if special issues come up of a strategic or policy nature ad hoc committee need to be formed for that particular issue clearly, because because we don’t, we only have three standing committee, so we’re going to get this right. We’re gonna need ad hoc committee, particularly everything. Ascot committed to take care of the issues. They come up, come up esso, and then that that their their their responsibility on the other side of the picture is the assessment committee and assessment committee simply assesses how we have done. Okay. Oh, and that includes the arctic function and the er in states such as california, where you need a separate audit committee. A subcommittee of that assessment committee performs the audit function, meets with the auditors this all seeds up to the to the executive committee. The third committee, which has the traditional executive committee duties of of ah, of acting for the board and emergency situations, and taking a final review off the various reports that air coming through before they come to the board. So it was, you say, have a board of twenty one people with seven on each. You will find that by the time it gets to the board through the process is the large part or nearly all the board are familiar with the issues they may disagree with with some of the proposals and have other ideas at the board meeting. But everybody is full of pretty much everybody is wholly informed. You say twenty one board members as an example. So this is can this corporate model worked for organizations that have just maybe half a dozen boardmember xero their way, we could divide that in four or however we want to. Arrange that depending upon the needs of the corporations of the non-profit uh, this is a flexible model, okay? And people have used it in different ways on dh dahna, for example, i once met a person, a new organization that didn’t have any standing committees, all committees of the board were ad hoc committees reporting to the entire board. They were happy with it. I would have been happy with it, but evidently it worked. It worked for them. All right? So there’s flexibility is this more what we see in corporations and you have to you have to help me out because i don’t i’m not familiar with the corporate model is is this more typical of the way corporate boards operate? Very few standing committees? Maybe not exactly the same, but very few standing committees, lots of ad hoc committee’s. Well, this is being proposed by the ah by some major consultants. Now, as you as you noted in the book, however, i hate to say, but i’ve been at this for more decades than i care to admit and in turn ah, they’re a ce faras. I know. Based on the sales of the first two. Books there, which was the first to additions, which were their sales of over ten thousand copies. I would estimate the thousands of boards have adopted it on dh. However, it is still controversial among some boards and its best used with boards who have, ah, a about a million dollars budget and roughly let’s say about ah ah, over ten to twelve, fourteen full time employees when it comes to the nation type of non-profit board uh, the i think the traditional model of bored involvement in operations is necessary because, uh, they’re simply not the man power to get it done. The basic problem in the process in the change is that boards begin with board involvement in operations, and when they grow, they still sick with the old model stunting the growth of the organization, frustrating the chief executive office operations officer and on dh missing huge opportunities that they could have right in their growth gene, i’m not clear on, but i’m not clear on something. Is is your recommendation for smaller organizations teo to stick with a more traditional, smaller younger organizations? I guess. Yes, more traditional sport model if you have an organization with a budget, for instance. I know one that i’ve been very close to. Uh, it has only has a budget and does great work. Charitable work have two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year in that case, uh uh, i would stick with the traditional oer organization, however, in the book. Hey, hey still need tohave on audit committee of some sort. And the book describes what is necessary to have that, you know, once or twice a year a cz the accounting issues and financial issues come up. And of course, the corporate model is important, too. I have in mind, as the organization grows exactly that’s the transition there were going. I’m just saying that’s the transition that your urine compensation and allows you, teo, to growth a very large to a very large organization. If you want to go in that direction and and it’s sort of mandated once you get a larger number of poise and ah ah, nde larger financials to handle if you’re in the area of over a million, if you’re in the area of one point five, two, three, four, five, six million so forth i had one client a couple years. Ago that still had the old model on dh they had a budget of six million dollars and, uh, the chief executive officer said to may look, i could be running away with this board, you know? They’re just not had supporting me in the way they should be supporting me there, worrying about the details on the operational details that they hear about now that’s the policy versus paper clips. Yeah, and just there worrying about hypothetically the paper clips just to remind listeners that gene fram is professor emeritus at rochester institute of technology and the author of that book policy versus paper clips. Jean what? What can we expect? Aside from maximizing our growth potential? Sounds like more efficient operations. What else khun kayman organization expect if they adopt the corporate model of board governance? Alright, well, ah one is the the board members feel that they’re doing meaningful things. They think they see that they’re proposing projects. They’re monitoring their development, uh, they’re getting to know the staff. Eso if the succession issue comes up, they know who, uh who? Ah, who? The, uh, prime candidates might be. And they become really mohr involved with the organization, as i indicated in policy versus paper clips. Ah, the ideal organization is a partnership between the board, the management group and the staff. They are all working together, there’s communications there ideally and ah, and they’re all focusing on the the objective of meeting the needs and the grow, often the growing needs of the client. Okay, we just have about a minute and a half or so before the break. What about employees who are accustomed to going to board members with with problems that assume that’s gotta stop? Yes, that has to stop that’s what they refer to it is the end run in the non profit organization. So the end runs have to stop, and they and everybody has to understand that it has to stop so that people are not. People are not reporting to board members, they’re reporting to they’re they’re they’re supervisor or maybe it’s the ceo and president. But yes, but we can’t be going to board members for everyday problems. No, we can’t pay, uh, salary levels, uh, problems with promotions and so forth and so on. That’s particularly difficult and smaller community and smaller communities cerini where many of the employees might know the, uh, the board members personally, you know. So that becomes important. So there is a transition period, uh, which can take anywhere from two to three, maybe even four years while this adjustment takes place. Okay, jean jean, we have to take a break. We’ll have plenty of time or to talk after this. After we go away for a couple minutes, i’ll come back. Tony’s take two and we’ll keep talking to jean frame about the corporate model. Stay with me. We have two more with jean fran. Of course. Coming up first. Pursuant. It’s a simple problem. Solution statement. You need to raise more money. The pursuing tool velocity helps you. How can i make it simpler? Yeah. It’s one of the latto one of their tools at its designed to keep fundraisers on track with goals and that’s, whether you have devoted gift officers or you’re the sole fundraiser or director of development or you’re the executive director doing fund-raising probably all the more reason you need technology in the smaller the shop, the more efficient you need to be going to be going toe ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference. I’ve got lots. Of technology interviews coming up more about that shortly. But you need technology. Velocity is one of these tools that can help you. Um, no more index cards. I hope i hope. That’s analogue oriented by now, but or spreadsheets. Please check out these tools pursuant dot com crowdster they have a deal for non-profit radio listeners eager get thirty days free or fifty percent off. That means you can try a crowdster peer-to-peer fund-raising sight completely free for a month or you get the fifty percent off which means pay for a month and get him on three or pay for two months. Get two months free. Add it on claim your ah crowdster deal which everyone works better for you claim it at crowdster dot com and in the chat window, tell them you’re from non-profit radio and which deal you want. They’re all prepared crowdster dot com now time for tony’s take two a dream realized since i was five years old roughly i have wanted a house by the beach ah mei grandmother and grandfather grandma grandpa martignetti used to take me to the beach in belmar, new jersey and they had a home there and my parents just dropped me and my brother off for weeks at a time during the summer. And even when school was, you know it was whether was even before i was school age. But then school time, you know, summer vacation. Of course, weeks at a time, we’d be grandma and grandpas, belmar, new jersey beach house and i just like i got sand in my blood, and i have realized the dream. I now own a home in emerald isle, north carolina, and the beach is across the street, and along with the beach comes this ocean that is twenty four seven it’s, remarkable. It never stops, and i hear the ocean. I see it, it’s, it’s, across the street’s, my across the street, neighbor. So it’s all ah, very pretty special, um, no longer in new york city full time now, just part time, more time down in ah, in emerald isle and, uh, there’s a video called my dream realized and that’s at tony martignetti dot com with a little more detail about this, but, um, yeah, very special realized dream non-profit technology conference that’s coming up its later this month, march twenty third, twenty fifth. I’ll be in san jose, california. I hope you’re going to be there. I’ve been talking about it, it’s an excellent conference, lots of smart people helping you use technology. As i was saying earlier, you need it. You can’t you can’t get away from it. And if you’re not using it, not embracing it that’s just like, you know, neutral on it. But if you’re not embracing it, you’re probably not as efficient as you could be in lots of different operations, but fund-raising program other administration h r time management, you know, whatever it is, um, you need to be embracing technology in twenty sixteen pursuant is going to be there. They’re going to be right near me. I’ll be getting interviews on the on the exhibit floor space, i’ll have a booth and then we got a green room right next to that for guests who come early, big, big, you know, big establishment but non-profit radio big presence there pursue it would be right near and i’m expected to get around thirty interviews, maybe even a little more over the three days. This is my third, um, the interview schedule. I’m going to put that up at tony martignetti dot com. You could see who’s coming up which days the conference info is at inten dot org’s and that is tony’s take two for the two hundred eightieth show three hundredth show is going to be coming up. The anniversary is always july. I don’t know exactly which day i didn’t look too counted out. But the three hundredth show is going to be coming up in july. That will be our sixth anniversary. Let’s do i feel like i feel like live listener love so let’s. Ah, let’s hit the live listeners and there are many. Ah, i got some of my new neighbors in north carolina. New bern is with us and chapel hill, north carolina. Thank you very much. Live. Listen, love there, but also cleveland, ohio, pittsburgh, pennsylvania where i spent a very formative four years at carnegie mellon university. I was able to graduate in four years. I was remarkable. Class in nineteen, eighty krauz in nineteen eighty four, no nineteen, eighty four that’s. Right, ninety, eighty was the golden knights. It, uh, northern valley, old japan elearning i’m opening up a lot today. It’s. Unusual. Yes. Krauz ninety four, carnegie mellon, pittsburgh p a live listener. Love to you coming back to new jersey. Florham park. Cool. Ah, brooklyn, new york. Live listener love. Oh, there’s. Another, uh, duncan, south carolina. Not too far from north carolina. Los angeles, california. Nyack, new york. Welcome. I don’t think i’ve seen nyack before. St louis, missouri. I was stationed in aa. Ah, whiteman air force base in in ah, knob noster, missouri. But i did not live in knob noster. I lived in warrensburg, and somebody puts all this info together. That’s all on facebook. Anyway, i think s o st louis? Yes, i used tio used to spend time in st louis. We would take a train from st louis down to mardi gras. Did that for two. Years in a row from the beautiful st louis train station st louis live listener love to you, atlanta, georgia and san jose, california, where i will be in aa was it ten days or so? Roughly let’s? Go abroad? Mexico city, mexico window star days tehran, iran i don’t know how to say it, but live listener love to you. I don’t know the would that be farsi. I don’t know what foresee i’m sorry. I hope you’ll accept my live listener love in tehran. Tokyo multiple in tokyo, japan of course. Konnichiwa and seoul, south korea always checking in and multiple there too. My always question do you know each other on your haserot? Also, bolivia is with us. Bolivia welcome live listener love. Okay, let’s, get back. Teo eugene fram and his book his book, of course. Policy versus paperclips. Gene let’s. Keep talking. Okay, what about you? Mentioned? Just briefly. Let’s. Talk a little about assessing the work of the of the ceo. Who does? Does that fall under in this corporate model? Well, that’s the that’s. The assessment committee makes sense. Ideally, the assessment committee looks at, uh, two aspects of the of the ceos. Work and the organization’s outcomes you don’t look for processes, you look for outcomes and, uh, these khun b those, uh, those data which are what we might call ha ha ah, hard data and that’s the data that you have with accounting records, records of membership, what a number of clients, things of that nature that you can easily major. And then there there qualitative ah, measures that you can measure and has should make sure which most or many organizations don’t major, for instance, impact on the community or or excuse me image. Ah, in the community, things of that nature more qualitative. And in that area, i suggest that you do what we call dahna, uh, use imperfecta metrics. In fact, i have an article out on it, and i’m sure if any of you ah, if you take a look at my, uh website, you will you will see it there. Or if you even put it on in under my name, you will find it is available on on the web on. And that is a process that i suggest with the co author that if you use in perfect metrics over time that you khun dr process dr provoc progress and develop exchange it. Develop change. Excuse me. Jeans, blogged, itt’s. A little little lengthy. So i’m going to suggest that the easiest way to find jeans teo, do a google search on eugene fram? Yes, thank you very much. I have now have ah, ah. In fact, i have an anniversary right now. I’ve just put out my hundred fifty fifty it’s block a titled what non-profits ceos think of their boards? Other recent ones, air program reductions are mandated. What can a non-profit do? Okay, in another one just for example, is management knows all what does a what’s a non-profit director to d’oh. Okay, and people will find you. Really? I think. Easiest through a google search. Now, this year’s have put my name into google and there there’s a lot. A lot of links there for you. This use ofhim. Perfect data. Gene, won’t you say a little more about that? Doesn’t doesn’t sound like something we’d want to rely on. Well, if your process is good and you sample, uh, reasonably well, you get data. That is not exact. But you get a feel for it. Uh, for for example, i once have was on the board of a of a charitable non-profit that was targeted. Ah, to counsel. Ah, p ah! Various people in the community was heavily supported by the united way. And we weren’t getting many. Ah ah ah ah! We weren’t getting many respondents from the inner city, so i suggest it as the boardmember uh, that i, uh, talk with some of the people in the community. What, that time no one was the settlement houses and ah, and see in the inner city, uh, which were community centers, which is a better word for them and and see what they perceived is the problem. Esso i went to them, and i found out what i what they thought were the problems. And now you’re only talking to three people, but they knew the communities there. And the, uh the first thing that happened was the aids of the community centers called ah, my, uh, my president and ceo and said, guess what? One of your board members coming down to talk to me, so i ah, and he said, yeah, i know. And we had agreed to this prior to that and so i listen to these people. I came back. I gave him feedback. Hey made changes to try to ah garner a greater proportion of the clientele from the inner city. And then after a year, uh, went back and talked to the people and i said, as are many changes and they said yes, there’s been modest changes, but there’s still more that needs to be done. I fed this back to the present ceo. He made changes. And then at the end of the second year ah, there were there were substantial changes, and the board got out of the business of of evaluation at that point. All right, so buy some. Buy some key interviews of the right people, right? Yeah, we don’t have statistical significance. And exactly, but on everything that surrounds ah, proper peer reviewed research. But who can afford to do all that all the time? Exactly. And and the article contains practical examples. Were both myself and my co author, jerry tally, a sociologist. Uh, both of us have been in ah, and quote in the business a long time have have used the model and have found it very, very helpful and over. Time if you repeat this asai did and and the example i gave you it was only a about a two year run until the things started to turn around and then the ceo was evaluated on on on going from there you mentioned earlier something i wantto spend a little more time with the proper title, your recommendation for title. For the the chief of the of the organization, you feel pretty strongly that executive director is not sufficient. No uh, executive director can mean various things because it’s, used in in a in a wide variety of ways on executive director, can be a volunteer who manages the budget of a small church with a let’s say, a two hundred thousand dollars budget. An executive director, khun b, for instance, one i’ve encountered recently ah, was the was the head of a ten million dollars dahna a charitable organization with over one hundred employees, and, uh, i don’t think, uh, the title executive director in the twenty first century, even in the last part of the twentieth century, gives, uh, the chief executive officer off a non-profit the position and stature that that, uh, that he or she needs toe work effectively. So what do you prefer to see? I prefer once you get into the make the make the transition, i prefer president and ceo because people understand their what that means. It’s clear that that person has read sponsor ability for operations, except those decisions that have to be made by the board. And that title may have significance for board members also that they recognize the responsibilities of of the president. Ceo exactly on dh to add to that. And in many cases, the non-profit president ceo has more management responsibility than a number of the members of the board. For instance, if you’re a professor, you loft and ah, don’t have any management responsibilities, um, never had it. Okay, you worked as an individual contributor. Same thing about a physician who is, uh, who has a single practice. Ah, same thing with the, uh, a lawyer who is, uh, who has a a single practice or even a part of a major law firm. They just haven’t had the responsibility of the that the president and c the chief executive has off of the nonprofit organization implementing this. A corporate model seems to me there’s a lot of trust between boardmember sze, between the board and the president, ceo between the staff of the organization and the president ceo between the staff and the board. It sounds like there’s. A lot of trust required. Yes. You have to have trust it’s it’s. Really? Uh, if you’re and you picked it up exactly. It is a trust model it’s. A model in which you have to trust the ceo. Uh, you have to trust the staff that they are professionals. But on the other hand, it also calls for rigorous evaluation. It’s not the traditional evaluation of the border, the staff where they send out a questionnaire at the end of the year and and ask people to return it. You don’t get full returns and the questionnaire is poorly formatted. It takes investigation and robust evaluation. And what are we going to do with trustees who are reluctant to give up the the managing the paperclips responsibilities? How do we manage those people with difficulty? Yeah. Hope you got something better than that. Otherwise i’m taking you off now. I’m going to cut your mic down. If that’s the best you can do. No. With some people, you have to give them what they might consider a meaningful activities, such as, uh, chairing the annual dinner on things of that nature who are not working, who are not interested in the policy. For instance, if you have a major donor, who, uh, just is not interested in policy and strategy, and wants to do that over time. What you hope will happen with the ah corporate model with my model is that, uh, the, uh, board will turn over to people who have these dynamic interests and understand that they have to do a robust evaluation, not a cursory one, and that the majority of the board will be those types of people. We got to take a break. Jean fran stays with me. And i certainly hope that you do, too. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from a standup comedy, tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they are levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. If you have big ideas but an average budget, tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio for ideas you can use. I do. I’m dr robert panna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Welcome back. We’re wrapping up. We have about another five minute it’s. So and want to continue with with jean for the that time and talk about some of the advice that you have around week board practices. There’s there’s. Something on your blogged. There are a few posts on your block about overcoming week board practices. One of those is one of those bad practices is overlooking absences. What do you suggest there, what’s the problem. And what do we do? Well, you have boardmember sze uh, who, uh uh, fill a board members, uh, board position and they’re consistently absent. And, uh, this is a very touchy situation. They may be very fine. People have great skills, but they simply don’t have the time to attend board meetings, which have obviously critical to the organization. Uh, i think the best thing you can do is to try to talk to these people, try to retain them on the board or understand, uh, what they’re missing by not attending the board meetings in some instances. Ah, it’s it, khun b a a termination discussion. For instance, i just recently encountered one and which, uh, the board chair had this discussion with the person and she said, i’m just sorry i like the organization. Ah, and and i’m i’m tied to the mission, vision and values, but i’m doing international travel and my best, the best i can do is to open up the position and resign in other cases if you can find the root cause of it and do something about it for them that’s that that could be ah, that could be another alternative, but it’s very situational on dh, very individual to see what you can do. Teo, handle the situation you had suggested earlier. There may be a different role for the person, maybe it’s not our board. Well, something else they can do to support the organisation in this one, they’re, uh instance that i just, uh i mentioned i i, uh, had talked to this individual and i said to her, well, look, uh you’re it’s obvious that you can’t do anything immediately, but your role made in your job may change again. Uh, have you asked about taking a leave of absence from the board and ah and ah ah, future time. A year, year and a half. Two years, maybe things during that change around and so she’s still connected to the board in some way, i may even get minutes of the board and so forth. So on as a way of retaining that person’s interest in the organization because she was she’s, a very fine person. Thoughtful, analytical does critical thinking and had very broad x variances. Kind of the dream. The dream boardmember. So you try to make these accommodations. What about insufficient due diligence on the board first? How do we how are we going to recognise that? Well, i think that’s again the, uh the, uh the board chairs ahh responsibility along with the chief executive officer. When things are not discussed in an adequate detail that they bring the issues up that they pride to do some of the due diligence for the people. Because again, the board members are not being compensated by large. They are. They have other job that are their main main concern. And so you may need to help them along on the dew dealings. Due diligence side jean has other identified bored weaknesses and and how to overcome them on his on his blogged jean what is it that? You love about working on boards? Well, i i like the people. Ah, and i’ve served on a number of human services are, you know, charity type boards as well as, you know, trade associations and so forth, but on the boards that especially those that are charitable in nature, you see in these organizations, people who figured early stand ten feet tall, they do much more than they are compensated for, they do it willingly, and they really have the client’s interest that mind, ah, at heart, and and then in their mind, you know, i’ve seen ah, social workers in on and homes buy-in group homes ah, take take some of their clients to their own homes on weekends, or even take them on vacations far beyond what is required of the people in order to ah, help them overcome the handicaps that they have. You know, those are just examples, and when you see people like that really dedicated it and you can contribute in your way, you know, i can’t do those sort of things, but i can contribute to they’re doing it, we have to leave it there. Eugene fram, professor emeritus at rochester institute of technology, google him remember it’s like the fram oil filters fr am googling to find his blogged his book is policy versus paper clips it’s on amazon jean, thank you so much for being a guest. Well, thank you for having me been my pleasure next week. Professor adrian, sergeant on relationship fund-raising did you think that i forgot the affiliate affections and podcast pleasantries perish the thought podcast pleasantries to those listening on whatever device or whatever time you’re very welcome at non-profit radio and i’m very grateful for your support pleasantries to you and affiliate affections, especially our newest affiliate, w l r lanchester affections out to all the am and fm station listeners throughout the country. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com where in the world else would you go? And i just don’t know about that. 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What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful posts here’s aria finger, ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you gotta make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe, add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gifts. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for September 18, 2015: Run Like A Biz & Program Your Board

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Hillary Schafer: Run Like A Biz

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Hillary Schafer brought her 12 years on Wall Street to the Jefferson Awards Foundation, where she’s executive director. She shares her ideas from building core infrastructure to employee policies.

 

 

Gene Takagi: Program Your Board

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Your board probably recognizes its fiduciary responsibilities, but does it know its role in overseeing programs? Gene Takagi is our legal contributor and principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group (NEO).

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We’ve got a listener of the week naralo brancati on twitter he’s at bronco leggio he’s in roma italia, where i’m headed shortly and he’s a frequent retweet er of non-profit radio posts, which i very much appreciate so listener the week carlo hey, congrats to latto you messed it up. Lincoln got two lattes cioni carlo chaillou bello, thank you very, very much, carlo. I’m glad you’re with me. My cat would bear the pain of odo psoriasis if she had to hear that you missed today’s show run like a biz hillary shaefer brought her twelve years on wall street to the jefferson awards foundation, where she’s executive director she shares strategies from building core infrastructure to your employee policies and program. You’re bored. Your board probably recognizes its fiduciary responsibilities but doesn’t know its role in overseeing program. Jean takagi is our legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo and this is from our show on january tenth, two thousand fourteen on tony’s take two work smarter, responsive by pursuant, full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuing dot com. I’m glad to welcome to the studio hillary schaefer. Prior to joining the jefferson awards foundation as executive director, she worked as the head of us institutional equity sales in new york. For citigroup, she was one of the highest ranking women in the equity business. In the late nineties. She was the executive director of economic security two thousand fighting to save and remodel social security. The foundation is at jefferson awards, dot, org’s and she’s at beard. Hillary on twitter. Welcome, hillary schaeffer. Thank you very much. Glad you’re in the studio, thanks to be here. Eight and a half months pregnant, eight and a half months pregnant, we got you at the right time. What’s behind this twitter id beard hillary it’s, my maiden name is beard. Okay, until re beard was taken, i presume and hillary beard is probably taking swiped by some. I had that done on youtube. Some joker i hope he was named tony martignetti stole the channel name tony martignetti and i had you riel tony martignetti but he doesn’t use it so it’s ah, people don’t have trouble finding me. Not that anyone’s looking, but if they were looking, they wouldn’t have trouble finding me on youtube. Um, tell me about wall street what’s it what’s it like making a living equity say institutional equity sales what’s it like, what does that mean, that’s that place, like, actually, frankly, loved it. I did it for twelve years. I went into wall street thinking i would do it for two. Yeah, we’re really, really fell in love for long enough to stay for twelve instruction. Likely sales is basically where you manage the relationships for the largest institutional investors who invest in stocks. Okay, so on behalf of citigroup, so on, you’re like, on account, uh, liaison to big companies buying stocks. Sort of. Yes, i minimize their eyes. So egregiously okay, clearly egregiously. So, what do you how do you how do you keep big institutional buyers happy? What you have to do, too, with more of their blackness is making money, right? So investing in stocks that go up and shorting stocks that go down. And so ah, lot of the business of the equity business of citigroup is to provide really good insights and ideas and research into the companies that they care about and delivering that content into your clients in a way which is consumable smart, if it’s with their investment style, um and helps them make money is really the core of what you do. Okay, but then there are all of these other services that citigroup offers and help clients run their money from financing stocks. Teo, all of the things that go around the core of running that business, okay, banking and credit relationships, things like that, things like that. Okay? And so core of that business is sort of managing that entire relationship to make sure they get the resource is that they need in orderto successfully run the business and a transition to non-profit work. What? What occasioned that? Frankly, hurricane sandy, i had left wall street. I have two little kids already at home, and i decided that i wanted teo figure out what i wanted to do next. I had no idea what that was actually, frankly thought it would be in the finance world. Yeah, and hurricane sandy hit new york, and i was sitting in my living room working on a business plan for a finance business, okay? And i just got really passionate about the idea that there were children who had gone to bed safe and sound the night before that woke up with no signs of food or shelter or warmth, their security. And so i went to work from my living room to create programs that generated millions of more meals, hundreds of thousands of blankets and warm winter coats for families all over the tri state area and my husband on dh, the executive director of robin hood both basically sat me down and said, please don’t go back to finance the passion that you feel around helping people is so significant. Do something else. Stay in the non-profit you gave away your entrepreneurial dream, the plan you’re working on. You’re going to start your own business. I did put that aside, although running a non-profit is inherently incredibly entrepreneur. Okay, if it’s done right if it’s done right. All right, all right. Um, tell us a little about the jefferson awards and the and the foundation. Sure. So we we basically power public service. We’ve been around since nineteen metoo started by jackie kennedy, senator robert taft junior and my father, sam beard. And the original idea was create a nobel prize for public service in america. Ah, celebrate the very best of the country. You celebration to not only say thank you to people do amazing things, but also as a force multiplier to inspire others to do something good. We then translated into programs that accelerate and amplify service for people of every age. So, starting about ten years ago, we became one of the largest creators of public service in the country through training mechanisms and programs that engage individuals again of all ages to do service ranging from the donation of a single book from a child to a child all the way up to young people in adult toe like who are impacting millions. Of lives and it’s ah, jefferson awards so what’s the awards side of this. So when the awards is the celebration peace. So we are effectively the gold seal of service in america. We give out a we give out jefferson awards the national level, you would know basically every name. Okay. Who’s, one of jefferson word over the last forty three years. And then we have a media partner program where we partner with local affiliates, newspapers, etcetera but primary news outlets in communities all over the country. But today, reaching to seventy eight million households on dh, they are empowered to take the jefferson award and celebrate local grassroots unsung heroes. All right, a nobel prize for ah, for outstanding program work and and saving lives for impact impact. How about the foundation itself? Just number employees. Just a quaint little bit number of employees. Annual budget. Yes. So it’s about twenty seven employees, we have a, uh, about a ten and a half million dollar annual budget. Um, of which much of that is in-kind it’s about a three and a half million dollar operating revenue budget. Okay, and we’re going to go out for a break. In roughly a minute or so, so just, uh, gives a little overviewing of what? But some of the lessons are that you brought from equity sales on dh wall street. Teo, your charitable work, and i think the biggest thing is just that any organization, whether it’s, for-profit or non-profit, needs to be world class in order to be successful, and that starts with everything from how you manage and set your employees up for success to your back end systems that govern how you pay your rent, you know, pay your expenses and collect your revenues to don’t hurt management, teo everything that you do needs to look and feel like you set for-profit world, but it’s really for impact. So i’m guessing you believe non-profit is your tax status not your mindset? Correct? Yeah, cool. Okay. Ah, of course hillary stays with us. We go after this break. I hope you do, too. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Hillary schaefer let’s ah, let’s, dive into some of these lessons that you’ve brought with you this world class let’s start in the back end investment in infrastructure like c r, m databases, data management so that’s a that’s a terrific place to start because really every non-profit is powered by who they reach and how they reached them and how they communicate with, um and management of relationships, whether that’s a whether that’s, a donor, whether that’s, somebody, who’s won an award from our perspective, whether that somebody who has just invested in you are in your programs and how you understand that relationship, how you manage that relationship is all driven by the back end. Traditionally, people would use spreadsheets or just use, you know, sort of word and lists in their own brains, and fundamentally, it doesn’t get you as far as you need to get, and technology today is so sophisticated and there’s so many great great data pay systems that can integrate seamlessly with your website and with donor management tools and with, um, all mechanisms that you need to communicate effectively and really segment that communication into something that makes sense for that individual. It’s. Almost a shame not to you not to use it. Yeah, segmentation, and we’ll get to the benefit of that. I’ve had other guests. My voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old. I’ve had have a congratulations. Thank you. Everything else operates at, uh, the requisite age at fifty three, but my voice occasionally. Yeah, so we’ll get to the value of segmentation because people want to be talked to personally, not not and mass and like everybody else, but so but this can be hard to invest in me, we’re talking about this is not serving program directly. This is not helping people directly. How do we overcome that mindset that we can get by with, you know, the lackadaisical, the the database that we’ve got her the internal presses we figured out our work arounds, you know, we’re okay. It’s it’s finding you say that, right? Because they actually when you invest in a really good database management system and client relationship manager, which is what c r m stands for, what you get out of it, that multiplier effect that you can get from having true, powerful relationships and understanding of all of your constituents, all consolidated is worth every dollar you know, and frankly there’s so many great systems which are out there, and they’re not that expensive. The most expensive part is the time of your staff, an external consultants, which you often mean teo, take what is all of the stuff that you’ve cobbled together and to make. It work for your organization. So an organization as an example we had brought in sales force. We use sales force. Um, we frankly had the wrong system installed with sales force. It took us a long time to figure out how to get the right system installed in all of those things. But it’s also taking us the better part of eighteen months to clean our data. Teo optimize our data to segment it appropriately so that we can communicate effectively with everybody in the way they want to be communicated with and a fair amount of staff time. And it’s, that investment of taking somebody away from something that looks like perhaps it’s more important to their day to day life and put them into what’s really tedious work. Ah, in order to be a better organization. But for us, if i think about it, if we have a database that reaches sixty thousand people, our ability to grow from an organization that reaches sixty this sixty thousand two, two, six hundred thousand to six million all contingent on us having optimized rc era. This is key. So if you want to scale, you have to have the infrastructure two to support that every organization wants to be at the next level i get so many questions about, you know, how do i get to next level? Can you refer me to somebody help us get to the next level? But i think often they don’t they’re not set up to get to the next level. They don’t they don’t have the support that they need, even if they were able to teo, multiply by ten there, you know the size of their their outreach. Without data, you have no chance. I’ll give you a great example in the nonprofit world statistic terrifies me, but something like sixty percent of donors don’t repeat on average across the non-profit space every year. Yeah, don’t come back, right? Well, don’t patrician right that’s because we’re not loving the people who are there. Everybody is focused on the next level. No, you’re focused on the next person you forget about the person who’s already said to you with their dollars. I care about what you do at the heart of that is your database management system. I had a guest, peter shankman, um social media expert and marketing guy and his book is called zombie loyalists and basically had a last december. I think i had eternal you’re all your clients and customers into zombie loyalists that love you so much that they’re zombies for your work, and they’ll do your marketing, your pr, your communications for you, but ah, some of what he says boils down to the way to get the client you want is to be awesome to the client. You have that’s exactly right? I mean, i think about it from a from a fund-raising perspective, what the great fundraisers tell you is you should have four contacts with a donor for every time you ask them for something no in orderto have those four contacts but matter to them, you need to know what they care about that needs to be in your database. You need to understand them that meets not only being your head, it needs to be institutionalized in your database. Ah, and then you need to have systems which set up, which push you to reach out to that person, to make sure that you’re not forgetting to touch them four times before you go back to them and say, here’s, your invoice your sales force is a really cool example that you mentioned because for small shops, it’s ideal, the first ten licenses from sales force are free to non-profits and then they have a very deeply reduced fee for going beyond ten licenses. But i think for a lot of listeners, ten licenses is enough for more than enough. So, you know, on i’ve had guests on from the non-profit technology conference and t c talking about the benefits of salesforce, you know, i think that’s right and sales force khun b a terrific tool, it’s also it could be not that expensive or if you have the budget, the amount of tools that they have that you khun scale in two really optimizing take you to the next level are huge, so we don’t have we personally don’t have the budget we would love to have to spend with sales force, but we have a big, long wish list of things we would like to spend on specifically with sales force, with the tools that they have something bothering me to my head now, i didn’t mean to say lackadaisical databases, i meant to say lackluster, lackluster debate lackadaisical. Database doesn’t make any sense lazy, lazy self, you know, so that people could be lackadaisical. But the databases lackluster let’s talk a little about the segmentation, the benefit of communicating with people and showing that you know what their interests are when their birthdays are what they, how they like to be communicated with let’s, explore this know people are people all right, everybody wants to feel touched individually. Nobody wants to feel like they’re part of a marketing campaign or that they’re part of a sort of a blast. People want to be touched individually. It’s why things like instagram work because they feel touched by a photograph ah, it’s the same thing with with donor or constituent segmentation everybody wants to feel like especially in the nonprofit world where you’re talking about emotion. You are effectively touching people where where they want to improve the world, but you’ve got to understand which part of it inspires them. Yes, ah, and and also people like being cared for around the things that matter in their daily lives that have nothing to do with you. You ah, their children, their children’s ages. What? They d’oh? Ah, what their hobbies. Are where they like to travel all of those things. It just matters it’s all about having one on one of relationships. And the better your relationship is, the more likely you are to be able to maximize. And everything you’ve mentioned is data worth preserving its all data. You have to have people love it when you send them a note that says, happy birthday, no, super simple. It is very simple now. So what kinds of reminders do you get based on what kinds of things aside from birthday? What other kind of yeah, what others? Ah, it tends to relate to things that people have told you. Okay? And so for us, it would relate specifically to our program. So we have five different programs that have very, very different calendars. So that could relate. Teo, i i just need to get us a of the date because i know you desperately want to come to our national ceremony in new york city in march. Ah, but it could also be i know you really want to be. Ah, judge at our students in action conference in minneapolis. Ana and so getting that date to you in plenty of advance notice. It really gets down to that level. All right, so the, uh, the value of segmentation and investment in infrastructure. What about investment in consultants? You mentioned consulting? Nobody knows everything they need to know, but this could be tough to bring, bring other people in and have a fresh set of eyes evaluating you. It’s interesting on the consulting sight because i i personally have two two minds about consultants. Often i feel like you get charged too much for a percentage of somebody’s brain no on dh that’s the greatest risk with consulting. Ah, but also often they’re just expertise. You don’t want to bring in house. You can’t afford to bring in house, but you need somebody who has fresh eyes who knows something really specific that you don’t know ah, and with without which you can’t can’t go to the next level, you can’t execute effectively. So sales forces a terrific example. Um, there are so many tools inside sales force that enable you to do things like optimize your data and get rid of redundancy and all of those things, um and to, uh, to make it spoke for your organization. For think the ways in which you want to connect with people, i couldn’t do that myself, and i don’t have anybody in house who could do that for me. Could you just send your data data manager, database administrator to a sales force conference or course, yes, we do that too, okay, but it’s not enough and for the cost to bring and you know, you gotta you gotta weigh out the cost. So the question is, can you find somebody who is affordable to you in your organization that helps bring in those that kind of expertise in? I’m their things like building out an effective communication strategy where if you don’t have a big, robust communications team who can think about everything from database management, teo email to social media to all the things that go into digital infrastructure ah, and communications calendars and all of those things. At some point, it becomes really smart to bring in somebody from the outside to say, i’m building you a structure i’m helping you think about inside your organization, for you what a structure would look like, that you can afford let’s turn to our people, i think my voice is, my voice is crack again. It’s. A big bag, maybe, you know. So your people important asset, probably your most valuable asset most important, most expensive it’s expensive. I would guess inside most non-profits that that people are seventy eight percent of cost big, big, big percentage, um and making impact in the world all relates to the people who you were in power to make that impact on your behalf as as either a full time employee or an independent contractor. Treyz and losing employees is as expensive as losing the donors we were talking about, if not more so, you know woobox the amount of time you then need to spend teo find the person, bring them in house, and on average, it takes six to eighteen months to really optimize an employee. That’s a long time to invest in somebody new if you have somebody who’s good who’s sitting there right in front of you. The most important thing with people always is that they feel like they’re being set up to succeed. And they’re being given the tools that they need. Ah, to succeed. All right, how do we do this? Ah, well, that everything from the really basic and can feel very cumbersome to a management manager. Piece, but ah, gold setting and reviews letting people know where they stand, being really straightforward with them about what they’re doing that’s terrific, and where they need to develop development goals is a big, big, big piece, and i don’t mean development is in fund-raising i mean, personal development, professional development around how can you be a much more effective employees? For the most part? Certainly in my experience, whether it’s on wall street or in the nonprofit world, when you sit in a review with somebody, they barely hear the good stuff. Ninety nine percent of what you tell them could be good. Everybody waits for the butt, the but needs to be real, meaning it needs to be i understand you here’s, where i see helping to take you as a human being and as a professional to the next level, and being able to deliver that in a way which is non threatening but having systems and structures around delivering reviews around goal, setting around, holding people accountable to those goals and around understanding them and wanting to be on their side are all the the most important things you can do, and it doesn’t matter. What kind of an organization you’re out to do that my guest last week, we’re from the university of pittsburgh, and they were talking about incentive pay, something that pitt has set up, and they’ve defined what an exemplary fundraiser is it’s basically achieving two hundred percent of your goal, but that’s a big organization, university of pittsburgh dahna might there be other ways of implementing incentive pay around? Aside from strictly money money come, you know, incentives are interesting in non-profits because, um, a, for the most part, non-profits don’t use sort of base bonus type structures, but there are tons of other ways that you can make somebody feel really good about what they d’oh and whether that’s simply celebrating their accomplishments to the other employees into your board. People really thrive on that, but it can also be other things, like giving them an extra days vacation. Um, you know, sending them home on purpose when they’re kids sick and you tell them that family comes first, you know, all those things that’s really more around culture, but there are there are smart things you can do where you say, you know what? I don’t have the dollar to give you. But i do have a day to give you or two or whatever it is. Whatever it is, that you’ve earned benefits structures are very important, um, covering people in their families and how you do that and how you communicate it. Incredibly important and totally under sort of undervalued in the mindset in the nonprofit world about what that means to an individual. And you say, i care about you and your health, and i care about your family in there. We have just about a minute left or so we have a couple more than more than a couple minutes. How much time do we have left? Sam? Okay, dahna then let’s. Ah, my mistake. Let’s keep talking about some some policies around employment. Maybe around training. Like you’ve got a new employee, you’ve spent the requisite amount of time recruiting you believe you’ve got the best person, the orientation, the training process onboarding process oven employees that one of the single most important things that you d’oh. So with us, justus a simple example. First, everybody gets a very long, very detailed employee manual that they have to read, but they really understand what the operating premises are of the organ you’re holding your hands, like four inches apart for inches. It’s not for interesting. Okay, okay, they’re recording, so that would be way too much street. All right, but i use my hands a lot. I think i’m going to italy and i’m hundreds in italian, so i didn’t think you were using them enough. That must be the eight and half months. Pregnant part. Yes, i understand. Ok, the but having that set of expectations in somebody’s. Mind where they read it. They have to affirm it. They have to tell you that they’ve read it. That tells them everything from how many vacation days they do have, how they can accrue more vacation, what the benefits are to them, how they can get in trouble, how they can stay out of trouble. What a whistle blower policy might look like. All of those things very, very important. But then bringing people into the culture of the organization into your programs where they really feel armed. Tio ah, to be an effective employees. Ah, it’s. So fundamental. So we we set up a schedule time with all of our program managers. We have our end of its staff. When they come in they go. They shadow individuals who do either their job or even other jobs inside the organization. Because you got to understand the entire organization. I think in order to be effective in your silo. Ah, and then we do profession. We were very open to paying for people doing professional development and encourage it. Ah, and then we do regular staff retreats where everybody comes together and we work on pieces that feel like they might be holes in the skill set to the entire organization again, investment where its infrastructure of people you just you can’t shortchange these things and expect to scale on grow the organization. I mean, for the amount it costs me, tio run a staff retreat every year, eyes about one percent of what it costs me to pay my staff. Yeah, that is a very worthwhile investment to make that staff be a leverage oppcoll army, we’re gonna leave it there. Hillary shafer she’s uh, executive director of jefferson awards foundation there at jefferson awards dot or ge and again on twitter she’s at beard hillary. Thank you so much, hillary. Thank you. Well, pleasure and gun muzzle tough. Congratulations on your pregnancy. Thank you very much. Tony steak, too. And program you’re bored with jean takagi coming up first. Pursuant, billboard it’s, integrated management of email landing pages, micro sites, donation forms, mobile pages, mobile mobile communications. And this and the social networks. Really? I mean, a lot of stuff that hillary and i were just talking about infrastructure. You’ve heard guests talk about multi-channel engagement billboard by pursuing is multi-channel engagement management, including the analytics with strong data and analysis and you’re constantly learning and revising and learning and fixing and improving that’s how you get better, so supporting all this. All the engagement through multiple channels is this, uh, tool billboard, which will, as everything pursuing, does help you find tune and raise more money pursuing dot com. My video this week is the second set of ntc non-profit technology conference video interviews. The subject is work smarter there’s distance collaboration, moving your data and files to the cloud walk to work that was with beth cantor and re to sharma encouraging you to make walking part of your work day not as a break, but as part of your day, take your meetings walking and two other video interviews. Links to those interviews are under my video at tony martignetti dot com that’s tony’s take two for friday, eighteenth of september thirty seventh show of the year here is jeanne takagi with program you’re bored jean takagi he’s, a principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco gene has been gene has been a regular contributor to show it’s got to be going on three years gina, i if it’s not three it’s. Very close. He had it’s, the non popular of the non popular beautiful. He had it’s, the popular non-profit law blawg dot com non-profit law blogged dot com it’s very popular. And on twitter he’s at gi tak g t k happy new year jean takagi. Welcome back. Happy new year. Tony it’s. Great to be on. Thank you. I love having you. How long have you been a contributor? Every month, i think it’s been a little over three years. That is it. Is it over three? Love it. It could be. I think we met three years ago at a bar in san francisco. If i remember, right? Oh, for sure. It’s. Not like we pick. I picked you up there where i knew you before. I’m not that easy with contributors. I mean, yes, we we knew each other. And then we certainly did meet that’s, right? With along with emily chan? Yes. That’s. Right. Um, let’s see, our board has our board has some responsibilities and around program you’re concerned that they’re not. They’re not fulfilling those responsibilities. Yeah, i just feel like there’s there’s, maybe some lack of attention paid on board the board’s roll on program oversight i think so often went especially when you talk with lawyers or accountants were talking about financial oversight, and we’re saying we’ll make sure you’re solvent, make sure you have enough money to pay off your debts, they become duitz we don’t really talk very much about programs, but certainly the management folks and the funders air talking about programs and whether they’re effective and efficient, that furthering the mission. So, you know, i thought we should explore a little bit about what the board duties are in in that event as well. Can you just remind us first, we’ve talked about this a while ago. There are three duties that board members have i was faith, hope and chastity or on the greatest of those is but yeah, the three duties are the duty of care and that’s act with reasonable care in providing direction and oversight over the organization, the duty of loyalty, and a lot of that has to do with avoiding conflicts of interests that are not in the best interest of the organizations but are more for the best interest of an insider and the duty of obedience. Which lawyers air very interested in and that’s obeying with both the outside laws of you know, that apply to the organization and the internal laws like the by-laws and other policies that the documents may have those air the three to be to be concerned with. Okay, and and around program program is essential. Man. That’s what charity’s exist for his programs? Oh, my voice just cracked like i’m a fourteen year old exist that’s, exciting stuff. That’s it is. It is that’s. Right? Well, you make it interesting. That’s. Why? I love having you back. You make the what could very well be a dry topic. I think you make it interesting. And listeners do too. Yeah. That’s. What? Charity’s air here is for a program. Yeah, exactly. I mean, who cares? The indie at the end of the day, if we’ve got great financials, it’s none of our programs are effective, and we don’t do a service to the community. Precisely. So what do we need to be doing? What the board’s need to be doing around around program? Well, i think in meeting those three duties, the critical aspect for boards to make sure they’re reasonably informed ah, and just get a program report every month or every two months. You know, a ten minute program report from executive director or program director is fine and good. But does that mean the board really understands the programs and whether the advance the mission? Ah, and do they understand how the program’s advance emission? And did they ever ask you more difficult questions about are the program’s effective at advancing the mission? Or do we have alternatives? Or should we think of alternatives that might be able to advance that mission mohr effectively or more efficiently, given the limited resources that we all have? First up in this is and we have talked about this. Your mission needs to be very clear. Yeah, and one of the things you have to do is make sure you go back. And this is the lawyer speaking. Make sure you go back to your articles of incorporation and by-laws and make sure that the mission statement that years, thinking that you’re furthering is consistent with what the law says. Your mission is. And that’s that’s how it’s displayed on the governing document and in figuring out whether we are effective. At meeting our mission. Now we’ve gotta identify cem numbers, right? I mean, it’s, not just gonna be a ten minute report from the program director, we’ve got to be looking at some numbers to figure out whether our we’re having the outcomes that we want, right and it’s such a such a difficult question and that’s, why it’s it’s all about keeping informed? Because, you know, the whole area of program evaluation and that cantor and and a lot of institutions like the stanford center on philanthropy in civil society and mckinsey and, you know, the non-profit cordially foundations, and they all have been raiding all sorts of things on program evaluation and how we need more metrics and, you know, but all of that is great, but this is really hard stuff for a lot of non-profits to do so, yes, trying to figure out what what measurements are are important for us to figure out. Are we advancing our mission effectively? And then are we advancing it efficiently is really hard stuff, i think tip typically non-profits will, you know, measure how much money we’ve raised, how many visitors we’ve had or people with served? How many? Members we have. What is our overhead? Ray shone with had discussions on that topic as well. And, you know, those are interesting figures and all important. And i don’t want to downplay that. But what about, you know, then you know, the number of client desert. For example, does that really tell us what impact that’s done? No, before the clients. And you know, the program staff may know that, but how does the board know that if we have if we served a thousand clients last month, did we did we serve them by giving them one meal? Did that change their lives? Did we do more than that? Did we provide services? What? What and impact are we trying tio aim for? And what results are we getting those air really difficult things to try to figure out. But i think the board needs to push the organization in that direction. Of trying to figure out are the programs that write programs? Are we effectively implementing it? And if you want to, you know, evaluate your executive and evaluate your programs. You’ve gotta have a good understanding of that. I feel your passion around this, jean. I really do. It comes it’s it’s palpable. Now, in managing these programs it’s not the board’s roll. Teo, be day to day. There’s clearly there’s a delegation that has to be happening. Yeah, absolutely. And and the board certainly has the ability to and should be delegating if they have staff in an executive director. Particularly, um, delegating those duties on those people. And especially, you know, holding the executive accountable and tasking executive and making sure the executive has resources to be able to do this, to try to figure out what measurements should we take? Teo, evaluate our programs. What what’s important? What do we have the capacity to do now? And what? What do we aspire to do? What are outside stakeholders wanting? What are the foundations saying we must have? And what are the donor’s expecting from us and how to our competitors provide that type of information back? I think we just need to push. Our executives were lucky enough to have them to figure some of those things out. And none of this has done overnight. Of course, tony. But you know, you you’ve gotto work at this, and sometimes you’re going to move. Forward, and sometimes you gotta move backwards, but you’ve got to keep pushing, pushing ahead. You just asked five or six really difficult but critical questions out it’s a good thing, that’s, the podcast cause. Now people can listen. Go, go back to the past one minute and listen to those five or six questions of jean, just just named, you know, difficulty, but, but but critical. And and yet the board’s oversight responsibility remains when that can’t be delegated. That’s right? So, you know, the board, khun delegate management, but the board can’t delegate its ultimate oversight of the organization and it’s, you know, it’s responsibility to plan the direction of the organization. So status quo, if you know if that’s all you’re satisfied with and you don’t aim to do anything else with that, you know, that may not be that may indicate that you don’t have the best board in place, and i was a little shocked teo learned, i think two days ago guidestar held a web cast, and there was a survey done of executive directors, and seventy five percent said they were unhappy with their boards and there’s a big disconnect there seventy five percent. Prove it. Okay, what else? What else, uh, is part of the boards oversight of program? Gene? Well, you know, one thing i kind of want to emphasize as well is that i don’t want to put all of this on the board of directors, and i realized that the vast majority of board members are volunteers and have busy lives otherwise and are doing an amazing job trying to contribute to their organizations. The disconnect with the exec director is usually because of communications and a lack of understanding of their respective roles. So i just want to put a little bit of a burden on the executive director as well, to make sure that they are emphasizing board development and helping the board understand its responsibilities, and sometimes bringing in experts, even though they may cost a little at the outset could be really valuable to an organisation to try to figure out what these roles are and again put in a little investment up front, and you can get payoff down the road even if you have some failures along the way. But it’s just that continuing to push forward to trying to understand what you’re doing who’s responsible for what? On figuring that stuff out the metrics themselves again. Our khun b, you know, exceedingly difficult if if i asked you give us metrics on changing laws when we were fighting for civil rights. Um, well, that might take years or decades to get any measurable results per se that might make a thunder happy. And you know what would have happened? In the early sixties, if, you know, civil rights organizations just had their program shut down because boards didn’t get the right metrics, that would have been ridiculous, right? So we have to understand the limitation of these measurements as well, but continue to try to figure out what important steps or benchmarks we’re shooting for and what’s important to do, even if we don’t get the metrics on and make sure our funders and donors and stakeholders understand those limitations. Well, just a minute or so before before a break gene, what? What kind of expert would help us with this? What would we search for? Well, there there are some consultants out there who specialize in program evaluation, and there there are definitely resource is out there. I have named a few organizations already, but let me give you a few more the foundation centre and they’re grantspace website has got some excellent resource is on program evaluation, the national council of non-profits also has some excellent resources. They’re they’re definitely resource is out there, and if you look for non-profit consultants who got program evaluation expertise, i think that can be a starting place. This is also a ripe area for collaboration amongst organizations that are serving similar populations, or have similar missions to try to meet together and talked about how they’re measuring, you know, their program, results and what would work for maybe, you know, across the sub sector that that they’re serving, all of those things are really important. I think again, executive leadership is really important to get the board in motion, but the board also has to hold the executive responsible for making sure that happens as well. Let’s, take a break. Gene and i, of course, will keep talking about the board’s responsibility around program and the executive director’s, to lynette singleton and at lays, right. Thank you for thank you very much. For those very, very kind thoughts on twitter. Hang in there. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth godin. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger, do something that worked, and levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook. Well, you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guest directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Hi, i’m kate piela, executive director of dance, new amsterdam. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. More live listener love junction china ni hao, the netherlands gary indiana the home of christmas story, right? I’m pretty sure a christmas story that movie took place in gary, indiana live listen, i’d love to gary, indiana, and we’ve got a couple checking in from japan, hiroshima and kobe konnichi wa, farmington, michigan live listener love out to you. We have a question from twitter jean very loyal listener lynette singleton asks, do we know why there’s this lack of love between executive directors with and their boards, any ideas what’s contributing to that? I think i’m sorry, tony, that i think there are a number of factors that make be contributing to that, but i think the first is lack of understanding of the rules at each place and then it’s it’s a matter of communication between the two parties, there are great expectations that that board’s place on executives and the reliance on the executives tio tio make do with limited resources to produce amazing results, and that can sometimes be a very heavy burden on the executive without a lot of support from the board and exactly what the board’s role is in supporting the executive. Director’s also, i think they’re many areas where there’s a lack of agreement or understanding between those roles and, you know, fund-raising is actually one of the areas of x. Actually, some controversy, i think, you know, is the board involved is the board’s role dahna to raise funds for the organisation. From a legal perspective, i might answer no to some extent, from a more operational perspective, i would say, of course it is, so they’re they’re different considerations, and that was a charity navigator study, right? I’m not sure. I thought you said i’d start with, i’m sorry, the organization that did the webinar. Okay, okay, god start. Pardon me. Ok wave talking, talking about program meeting the mission, but there’s also legal requirements around program as well. Sure, and then the board should make sure that the executive is ensuring that the program is in compliance with whatever applicable laws might be there, whether it have to do with the facility of the organization or the employees and volunteers working for it, their basic risk management steps that they may want to take a swell, including ensuring that there’s proper insurance for whatever activities are are involved. Obviously, if you’re doing a summer day camp involving rope climbing and like that that’s going to be a little bit more significant in terms of risk management than if you’re just doing administrative work, lots of legal compliance, things, licensing, permitting and in all of those things, well, can board members be personally liable if laws are being broken and that’s why we have directors and officers insurance, isn’t it? Yeah, part partly why we have that it’s usually, you know, if there’s some sort of negligence involved when the boardmember acting not as a boardmember but as a volunteer for a program, then you’re probably looking at commercial general liability. Insurance to protect against, you know, somebody slip and fall and blaming the volunteer who was supposed to set it up, the board members, directors and officers insurance will really protect against decisions that the board made that ultimately, you know, in hindsight, we’re negligent or grossly negligent, and, you know, if they decided to hold a program in involved involving bungee jumping with six year olds and without adequate supervision, that would you know, that would be the type of negligence that that could get boardmember personally liable for something like that. But volunteermatch boardmember czar really, really, really rarely hell, personally liable absent some sort of malfeasance or self dealing benefit themselves. Okay, i’ve seen some six year olds on the subway that i wouldn’t mind having participating at that bungee jumping off a cliff. I could i could give them a little shove to get them started, but not not kids. I know nobody related to me, only only what’s people have seen some hype it that it go well, now they’re real. I’ve seen him in the subway, i just don’t know who they are. I can’t name them, but i could point them out easily. Probably on my way home, i’ll encounter a few. Um, what else should we be thinking about? You know, your get before i asked before we do that, you’re an anarchist. Also, you’re making us. I got two troublemakers on the show today. You are making us ask questions that are very difficult, but but critical? Yeah, you know, e think of lawyers and consultants more broadly. That’s what what we do, we can’t implement the changes that we talked about, what we want to raise the questions because we want boards and executives to really be thinking about these things and discussing them, and that’ll help break down the barriers and the misunderstandings and hopefully make more executive directors feel that their boards air great, make more executive, make more boards feel that their executive directors are doing a great job as well. As i said, i feel your passion around this. We have just about two minutes. You have another thought around this? Yeah, you know, just tio, make sure that again and i’ve talked a little bit about this is that there are limitations to what metrics can provide to an organization and some things just take a really long time to figure out research i mentioned lobbying on civil rights issues is one example, but research as well, you know, for going to engage in research of a new program and how it’s going to work or developing a new medical device or drug that’s going to be beneficial to developing nations and the people there who might not have the resources to be able to afford these things. We’ve got to be a little bit experimental, and i know you know, there’s been preaching to the choir about embracing failure and sharing it so we can learn in advance, but that really is something that all echo as well, that, you know, we’re going to get metrics and sometimes the metrics they’re going to show we failed, but if we never fail, that means we’ve never really pushed the envelope of making a more substantial change, and we’re just sort of, you know, relying on making little incremental changes, and we have to think about our organizations and say, are we detective organization that just wants to stay status quo? Do we want to make little tiny, incremental changes year by year, or do we? Actually want to look at solving or advancing our mission in a really big way and actually take some risk and find some programs out there that might be more risky and that might fail and help educate our funders and our donors and our supporters of that, you know, this is what we’re doing, and not everything is going to work, but this is the way to advance, you know, our cause, a lawyer with a heart, jing jing takagi really so grateful that you’re you’re contributing to the show? Jean, thank you so much. Thank you, johnny. And thanks for basing this serious subject to make a that’s. All right, wait. I have a little fun with it. You’re an anarchist is no question you’ll find jean at non-profit law blogged dot com that’s the block that he had it and he’s at g tack on twitter. Thank you again, jean, thanks so much next week, smart interviewing with cheryl nufer talking about behavioral interviewing and job descriptions. Heather carpenter is co author of the book the talent development platform. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Thanks for being with me today and i assure you the singing will return make no mistake pursuant full service fund-raising you’ll raise submarines more money i’m not talking about those one little person diving bells that xy ologists go down into study. I’m talking about ohio class ballistic missile submarines with one hundred fifty five person cruise plus twenty four ballistic missile tubes filled with money pursuing dot com i gotta send out live listen, love affiliate affections and podcast pleasantries were a couple of weeks ahead, but you know the live listener love goes out to everybody who is, in fact listening live whatever country, whatever state, whatever city live listener love to you affiliate affections to our many am and fm station listeners throughout the country and the podcast pleasantries too are over ten thousand podcast listeners in that time shift listening whenever you darn well please damn well, please, whenever you damn well pleased. I can say that our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, hard to believe we have one sometimes, but she’s there sam lever, which is our line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez susan chavez dot com on our music is by scott stein. Lorts and with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything people don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. It took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe. Add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno, two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money on it situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.