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Rob Mitchell, Gregg Carlson & Una Osili: Faceoff: Atlas of Giving & Giving USA
You need to not miss this! And I want you to join the conversation!
Since Atlas of Giving announced its review of 2013 fundraising in January, there’s been tension between them and Giving USA in other philanthropy media. For the first time, they’ll be face-to-face, rather than talking AT each other.
These organizations have 2 things in common:
1. Each prepares a broad analysis of fundraising results.
2. Each has problems with the way the other measures and forecasts.
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Forbes.com dubbed it the “philanthropy food fight.” On February 21, I’ll be the cafeteria cop.
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Hello and welcome to twenty martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host and this is show number one hundred eighty started this show in july of two thousand ten. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of disc wamidh of gingivitis if it came within my ken that you have missed today’s show a very big show philantech be face off atlas of giving and giving yusa since atlas of giving announced its review of twenty thirteen fund-raising in january, there’s been tension between them and giving yusa in other philanthropy media today for the first time, they’ll be together rather than talking at each other. These organizations have two things in common. Each prepares a broad analysis of fund-raising results, each has problems with the way the other measures and forecasts we’ll talk through their issues around accuracy, methodology and relevance. It’s a face off, so i’ll be the referee, which is ironic that i’m using a sports metaphor because i got my varsity lettering announcing, but i’ll fill the role it got the attention of forbes dot com they dubbed it the philanthropy food fight. If that’s what it is, i’ll be cafeteria cop, we have guest live tweeters. Alex daniels, a reporter for the chronicle of philanthropy, he’s at alex daniels seop the chronicle is retweeting his tweets and lynette singleton lynette is a big, loyal fan of non-profit radio and principle of singleton consulting group she’s at s c g the number four non-profits we’re taking your questions on twitter use hashtag non-profit radio we’re monitoring that hashtag here in studio on tony’s take to today i have a professional development survey on my block and i’d be grateful for your help. We’re sponsored by rally bound peer-to-peer fund-raising and by t b r c saving you money on credit card processing fees. It’s a pleasure to welcome my guests. Rob mitchell is ceo of atlas of giving on twitter he’s at philanthropy man also looks to me like at fill inthe roman could think of it either way, he’s in the studio on dh. He also has another twitter id at atlas of giving. Greg carlson is chair of the giving yusa foundation he’s at giving yusa on twitter and is with us from henderson, nevada. If you’re gonna be in nevada. I’m not sure why you would choose henderson, but welcome greg carlson dahna osili is director of research at indiana university, the lily family school of philanthropy. She’s, the researcher forgiving yusa on twitter, she is at i u philanthropy and she’s with us from indianapolis. We have the west, we have the heartland and the east coast. We have a special structure to start today to keep things balanced, we’re going to start with a back and forth we’re going to start with greg is going to take sixty seconds to describe giving yusa and then sixty seconds for rob to describe the atlas of giving rob is then going to ask e-giving yusa a question and either or both greg and unit can answer, we’re going to record how long greg a noona take latto answer, greg is then going to ask rob atlas of giving a question, and rob will have the same amount of time that giving us a took. We’re going to put a five minute maximum on the question answers, though five minute maximum for each side, but of course rob gets how much time greg and unity we’ll be monitoring don’t worry if you’re confused, we have it under control here and they were going to repeat this a second time, so by the second time we do it, you’ll be familiar with exactly what we’re doing, and the second time will start again with rob asking a question of e-giving yusa and then after that round, we’re going to take our first break and then we return, we’ll be a little more back to normal and i’ll have some questions and, ah, maybe there will be questions from twitter. If you have questions for for our guests today, please use the hashtag non-profit radio. So let me first welcome everybody. Rob greg dahna welcome thanks, tony. Pleasure to have all three of you. We’re going to start with greg. We do have a timer. Greg here in studio we’re timing. We’re going to give you sixty seconds to describe e-giving yusa. So? So please do that. Well, thank you. Toning given at the mission of the giving us a foundation is to advance the research, education and the public understanding of philanthropy. We welcome today’s conversation. Almost no of the foundation’s work through giving us say annual report on philanthropy, which we have produced for over fifty five years. We always are pleased to share what we do and how we do it all with the goal of helping the fund-raising practitioner and threw the question. So what does this mean to me and to my organization? Fiona and i are pleased to be with you today. All right, thank you very much. That was way under a minute. Thank you very much, greg. Glad to have you and owner with us, rob mitchell. You you get a minute, teo. Describe the atlas of giving. Well, first of all, tony, thanks for hosting this discussion. The atlas of giving my original goal was to create a tool that i never had access to. And thirty years as a practitioner. I was looking for a timely benchmark of giving for comparative purposes and a reliable, regularly updated forecast so that i could raise more money by timing events and promotions and creating budgets based on real data. I wanted it to be useful for working fundraisers, non-profit leaders, board members and the press and the public. The atlas of giving is about looking forward. We monitor the velocity and trajectory of charitable giving. We’ve got our finger on the pulse of american philanthropy. The atlas is ah high fidelity monthly benchmark of us giving by sector source and state the only highly reliable forecast of charitable giving for each of the next twelve months. With the atlas. We know what is happening in giving each month and khun schedule fund-raising events and promotions at times when they’ll get the best results, we can also create and revise budgets based on a reliable forecast. Robin, thank you very much, there’s the timer you just heard. All right, um, we’re gonna have. Rob now is going to ask a question of giving us a greg noona, either or both of you can can answer, but there’s a there’s, a five minute maximum combined for both of you, okay, is that is that clear? Yeah, good. Okay, cool, alright, rob, please. Thanks, craig, in enough for participating, by the way. So my first question is, what would you tell working fundraisers and non-profit leaders about how to use giving yusa information to raise more money this year and plan their upcoming fiscal year budgets. Greg dahna well, i’ll go ahead and take that, i think the first crack at that way may tag team that’s tony sure, okay, yes, it is so, robin, in terms of how the advancement professionals and development professionals in our field use our information with giving us say, we’re identifying true patterns and trends, and, uh, and i stay true because there’s some patterns and trends that that might not be as appropriate in terms of measurement and you’re making plans as as other ideas on deacon talk about what some examples might be of that. But the practitioners in the world in our field really used giving us say, too, see where the money’s coming from and where the money’s going tio and so specifically, then teo identify the overall e-giving patterns that would then enable them to know where to think about investing. Additional resource is as we move forward, you know, what would you add to that? I would just add that giving us a provides an overall context for non-profits to understand trends within their own sectors. Hyre oh, god, i don’t know. Oh, okay, um, e-giving usa allows non-profits to understand trends within their own sectors, but also provides them with an in depth view of what’s happening throughout the sector. We really strongly believe that giving us is an important tool for fundraisers, but it should be used alongside other resource is depending on the non-profits need we should also emphasize that in this sector non-profits experience, a lot of volatility in their fund-raising activities there’s a lot of months, months fluctuation as faras making decisions for a researcher. What this means is that there’s a trade off between thie information that’s widely available on the information that’s accurate and so one big hallmark for us been that trade off between speed and accuracy. Okay, the non-profits sector needs data quickly, but the non-profit sector also needs reliable data in order to make planning decisions, budgeting decisions and so forth. And so one of the i think hallmarks of giving us has been to make sure that information provided is reliable while providing an overall context of what’s happening in the sector. Okay, we’re going to stop there. That was two minutes and two minutes and thirty five seconds and greg would you would you kindly ask robert question, and then we’ll give him the same amount of time. Tio tio, answer. Sure, thank you. I think we would all agree that the volunteer board and development professionals we serve need and deserve accurate information. Rob, for your company’s product. What outside data and process do you use to validate the estimate you initially released? It’s probably best greg, to talk first about how we created it because what we did was we assembled a team of twenty five, phd level statisticians and analyst, and we actually took forty two years of e-giving yusa data and i thank you for the work that you’ve done over the past five decades. We could not have created the atlas of giving without giving yusa what we were looking for, wass we use correlation science, and so what we’re looking for, based on the data that we had from what was available, what factor’s, what economic and demographic factors correlated two, two e-giving both well for the national number for sectors each of nine sectors and each of four sources, and so we’ve been able to determine what exactly those factors are those economic factors for each sector, for each source and for each state now, and what we’re able to do then is we were able to build on algorithm we have sixty five different algorithms, one for each sector resource in the state and the national number. And the the interesting thing is that the factors involved for, say, individual giving are very different and their strengths are very different from those involved in corporate giving, as you might imagine. And so are you. No way. Our technology has proven that she isn’t used by hedge funds, that cheese by the federal reserve bank and others. It’s. Correlation. Science is a proven wait. To do this kind of analysis, greg, you have about another half a minute. If you want teo, use it only go ahead if you like. I’m sorry. No, i’m sorry i said the wrong name. Sorry, rob. You have about another thirty five seconds if you would like to use it. Sure, the last thing i’d like to say is there has been there’s there’s been a lot of stuff in the press about transparency and so forth, and i’ll just re emphasize what i said a few weeks ago, which is we would actively look for a major research university to enter into an agreement with us to evaluate everything that we do and everything that we’ve done and look for new research opportunities, using our data and our technology. Okay, thank you very much, rob. You can ask another question of greg and guna and will record how long they take. Teo teo, answer that question. Go ahead, rub please, rob. Sure, so i’m i’m curious about this. In the past twelve years, the number of non-profits in the u s has grown sixty percent over that same period of time. New technology is dramatically improving fund-raising results for many of them, not most. Non-profits donorsearch vise funds now account for more than four percent of charitable giving each year, and they’re they’re growing at a phenomenal rate online, giving a skyrocketing and popularity. And yet, in spite of all this, all this trend upward, i’m the giving yusa answer for charitable giving in the united states seems to be stuck at two percent of real gdp each year. And so my question is, does that bother you? Greg dahna greg well, they what i would say that that rob is that altum as we do our analysis, we’re taking into account okay, hundreds of variable, we’ve tested over seven hundred variables of issues that correlate with giving in order to develop our report. And so as we work through our report, we are doing a number of things which would include the use of the advisory council on methodology, which is an outside group that we’ve organized which their main job is to challenge both are processing our sources, asking, how can we do better that’s how we begin each and every year is we lay out processes of developing our report and then secondly, it’s critical that we have outstanding researcher and we have the best in the business for the indiana university lily school philantech on dh, their credibility is second to none when it comes to these kinds of questions. And so as we develop our annual report, this is the process that we go through in terms of determining how we’re going to them share with our sector results of our findings, you know? What would you ask? Yes, i think the question rob poses a very intriguing one, he says, how can we change that percentage from two percent? And we agree that it is indeed certainly an important issue, but it will take a lot to move that needle. This takes us back to the question at hand, which is how does giving us actually obtain its numbers? I just want to emphasize that giving us a estimates rely on in-kind a metric methods that have developed not just that the lily family school, but that we indeed share those results. Has greg mentioned with the advisory council in methodology, which includes leading researchers from institutions throughout the country during its history? Giving us has tested over seven hundred variables that potentially correlate with charitable giving by households by corporations and foundations, and i should mention that in every single period before we release giving us, we verify and validate this data, and we also consider, if anything, in the environment needs needs to be taken into account. So over time, we’ve added to that seven hundred very bold list by looking at additional factors that may have the potential to affect shared e-giving, including economic and demographic variables. So i just want to emphasize the two percent numbers, one that we have looked at very closely. Our advisory council methodology is well aware of, and our users are well aware of, but to change, that percentage will require not just the work of the non-profit fundraisers, but also our whole society being involved as well. All right, that was that was three minutes. So we’re going to now have greg is goingto ask robert question, and rob will have three minutes. Teo respond, greg, go ahead. Actually, you know, i think you’re next, okay, only you have a question, okay, very good. Well, i will use this minute, just to mention a few points that address tony’s question, he said. There’s been a growth in online giving, which is true it’s, now about five percent of all giving and certainly don’t advice. Funds are rising part of the fund-raising landscape philanthropically landscape as well. But we should keep in mind. Dahna mouna yeah, i want okay on the call, okay? The last thing we heard you say was keep in mind you’re you’re posing a question now to rob, right? Oh, yes, i’m posing a question, rob, but i also wanted to just very quickly mentioned that a few of the points that robberies such as the writer and online giving and also the use of dahna advice oh, no, no, no, i got to stop you. You’re transgressing a little bit it’s not eyes, not jargon jail it’s typically have george in jail, but it’s not that question for rob is the scientific process really depends on verification and validation off estimates in particular for the monthly and state and sectoral estimates that you present what dina sources used ultimately verify and validate those data sources because at least it’s not exactly clear, given that the methodology is not necessarily shared widely, how that verification and validation process is taking place. Well, first of all, we do not use we don’t use old irs data were not using any surveys. The atlas of giving, as i said, is based on correlation science, and so we’ve identified the factors that in their strengths, as they relate to each sector and each source, and those factors include regularly vetted and regularly reported economic and demographic data things like the case shiller price home price index we use gdpr of course we use actually there’s, there is one source that actually correlates to auto parts sales, which we’re not saying that that’s a cause, but it actually auto parts sales is important in that particular algorithm, which is not unlike the fed they’ve actually decided that auto parts sales are important, teo to the unimportant correlation to the banking business. So the the factors that we’re using our are regularly reported by the government and sound economic and demographic groups that give this information and our algorithms. If you’re looking for me to say that our algorithms have been vetted by the university of indiana, i’m not going to give i’m not going to say that, because of course, it’s not true, but again, i would emphasize we we’d welcome the opportunity for a major research university too. Teo, look at what we’re doing and and evaluate and comment on it, rob, you have about another minute and twenty seconds you can continue whether answering that question or anything else, but you get three minutes, okay? I would just say that, you know again in terms of utility what we’re most interested in, as i said in my opening statement, is velocity and trajectory of e-giving and as a as a someone who practiced fund-raising for thirty years, i was really interested in not just what happened a year and a half ago or two years ago. I was interested in what’s happening this month last month and what’s going to happen in the next twelve months and that’s what we’re really all about, okay? Wow, i am not i am not accustomed to this formal structure. This is not typical of non-profit radio so people joining us for the first time we don’t we don’t usually have time limits and things like this, you will see that after the break, we’re going to take our first break and when we come back, i’ve got some questions. I have a question from from my blogged, and we’ll see if we get a need live questions. If you want to join the conversation, join us on twitter and use hashtag non-profit radio to ask your question. Stay with us. They didn’t think dick tooting good ending things. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. Cubine do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss. Our culture and consultant services are guaranteed to lead toe right groat for your business, call us at nine one seven eight three three four eight six zero foreign, no obligation free consultation checkout on the website of ww dot covenant seven dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping hunters. People be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Geever duitz welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. We’ve got a ton of live listener love. Hamburg, pennsylvania! Fort lauderdale, florida. Dallas, texas. Atlanta, georgia, new bern, north carolina. Locust grove, virginia. Corvallis, oregon, indianapolis, indiana live listener love to all of you, there’s mawr in the us! But we’re going to go abroad. We’ve got guangzhou, china, and kunming, china ni hao in japan, we’ve got tokyo and yokohama, konichiwa, and we’ve also got korea, south korea always loyally checking in on son and gun, po han, yeo haserot and also seoul, korea. Um, greg noona, way got your message that you’re experiencing a bit of a delay. We want to make sure you’re not listening on your computer. You should just be listening to the to the conference number that you dialed into if you’re listening on your computer than that would definitely cause a delay. So if if you’re doing that, the best thing to do would be to meet your computer and just listen on the phone, and hopefully that will correct the problem time let’s say, okay, i want to make sure that listeners understand the method, the methodology and whether the methodology is pretty much the same between the two, but you’re using different variables or or whether it’s it’s actually different now, i think the i’m going to speak for a lot of people, i think on greg nuna, this first one is for you, i think a lot of people believe that the e-giving usa uses surveys and you did for many years you surveys, but then you changed, and i think it was in two thousand ten. First of all, dude, you don’t have that history correct, you’re no longer using surveys. Let let me correct this because it’s a really important issue within us. Based on an econometric model, it includes econometric analysis and tabulations e-giving usc does not depend on a survey, it does not use a survey. In fact, what it uses are data sources, including irs data data from the bureau of economic analysis, the philanthropic, the sliding panel study, which does provide an estimate of non itemizers e-giving we use data from very various sources within the non-profit sector, including the urban institute national center for charitable statistic, which provides the data on the uses the subsectors including education, health, the arts of environments i think there’s a lot of the need to clarify that giving us is based on econometric model providing estimates so in it is basically an estimate of e-giving that relies on the most reliable and most up to date data available. Um, i should also mention another distinguishing characteristic of giving us is that it’s, extremely transparent, it’s been peer reviewed. The econometric model on which giving us is based on has actually been published and in a peer reviewed journal and v s q because of its transparency and its commitment to transparency e-giving u s citizens fact replicable and verifiable anybody, whether researcher non-profit practitioner, our fundraiser can reference the data and actually see how those estimates were derived. In addition, giving us the update those estimates as more three cent and updated data becomes available from government sources and other industry aggregates and releases those revised estimates over time, giving us a program to be extremely reliable. To give you a sense of the reliability of giving us from the initial to the final estimates between two thousand for two thousand eleven, those estimates were between one point four percent difference the difference between the original and the final estimate was one point for-profit scent. And the median difference was one point. One. Okay. You know, i’m gonna haul night. Yeah. Okay. I’m gonna i’m gonna ask you stopped there. But i do want to ask about the history, though. What in the past was it? Wasn’t it a survey based model? I understand, it’s. Not now. I understand. But in the in the past. And what was it? A survey based model for years. Yes. In the past, when giving us first began, it did do a survey of different subsectors. Now, why did we switch? When the data from those charities the nine, ninety easies and the nine, ninety forms became available, we were able to actually provide an f estimate off those subsectors, using the most recent and up to date irs data available through a partnership with the national center and shared both statistics. So that’s actually, when that which took place on were able to develop a comprehensive econometric models for each of the subsector. Okay, and was that switching in two thousand ten? No, that was done in two thousand five for the subsectors. Prior to that, we since we have been doing the work, which is at the beginning of this decades in two thousand is when we started an econometric model for all the sources and for the uses that only became possible when the cs at the national center for charitable statistics start began a partnership with at the lily family school back then, it was the centre and philanthropy. All right, so rob, we have we have methodology based on econometric modeling and peer reviewed. How is the atlas of giving different? Well, i can’t say that we’re a peer reviewed we’d like to be peer reviewed, but we’re we’re also a were also a business. And so in the same way that coca cola isn’t going to release out of their safe their formula for making coq, we’re not going to release that either, but what we will do is we’d be happy to partner with a major research university in a controlled environment toe look and we would be willing to show anything we show every all sixty five algorithms, we’d be happy to show them anything they’d like to see. We’ve been able to reconstruct my monthly giving data by sector. Source and state back to nineteen, sixty eight we’d be happy to show them that database, so we’re not allergic to transparency were just need transparency to protect our proprietary intellectual property, you know, with the indiana university be interested in partnering with with the atlas of giving? Absolutely we be delighted, and i think that the hallmark of any data estimate that’s used in the nonprofit sector has to be that transparency and also verification and validation. So we would welcome the opportunity to share our process without less and work jointly with to verify invalidate their data on what that validation and tails is actually comparing the actual prediction with what happened in the sector. And so i think that’s an important process for increasing confidence and strength of the estimate for atlas e-giving we welcome that opportunity, and we’d be able to share it with the field more broadly, not just to check the data for internal purposes, but we would welcome that opportunity so that we can, in fact, share the broader results with the rest of the non-profit okay, well, i’m not committing rob mitchell, teo extending an offer to the indiana university i was just wondering if if the university would be interested, but no it’s, certainly not speaking on behalf of the atlas e-giving, rob, let me ask you about the atlas and and owners point verification verification of your data well, in the same way that they validate their data with their own internal sources in their own, their own systems, as she said, they revise their their estimate a couple of times after the original estimate comes out. Generally we measure we our estimate is one thing, and our forecast is something else and are forecast has been very reliable on a month to month basis. It’s over ninety eight percent reliable. Now, this is based on on the numbers that we calculate, not on the numbers that giving yusa calculates, right? So if if you’re looking for something to compare our forecast to giving us a cz estimate, it isn’t gonna happen because we’ve found that the correlations that we’ve identified for each sector source and state for giving in the us, our numbers have diverged pretty significantly. I mean, you can go and look at the atlas numbers over the last few years and look at giving us a and you can see a very different story being painted well. So how in the heck do we know who’s? Who’s, right? Let’s, let’s bring greg carlson back in if you’re both so divergent, how do we know that? How do we know who’s, right? Well, this is a key question that you’re asking me. Yeah, i know, i know i was very pleased personally, when a couple of years ago, your company took on the very difficult task of getting into the forecasting in prediction business because honestly, our our industry and sector were greatly benefit from an accurate forecast, but a zai look at your own analysis using not our numbers but your numbers over the last two years of your forecast, you’ve been off by a total of about fifty billion dollars, and so, you know, i’m just confused as to why you’re saying that your accuracy on your forecast is at whatever high percentage you claim it to be? Well, we’ve actually done the reliability calculations and month, month to month since two thousand eleven month to month were more than ninety eight percent reliable on a three three month basis where ninety seven percent reliable on a six month basis, ninety five point, three percent reliable on a twelve month basis, ninety three point, three percent reliable. And the thing you have to remember, greg, is our forecast, like any forecast conditions change and the example that i would give you is two thousand one, two thousand one was shaping up to be ah, pretty good giving year, and then september eleventh occurred and giving dropped off significantly for the last quarter of the year and into the first quarter of the next year. So we update our forecast every month, and we report that, and by the way, we give our we give our information away for free, okay? It’s uh, but what i would say to that, rob is that the average practitioner is eating information to make investment and budget decisions, and the boards that they are working with as to where they’re going to put their time and resource is typically with all the institutions i’ve ever worked with, their typically doing their budget and planning process six months before either the beginning of a calendar, your fiscal year. And so when, when someone gets into the prediction forecasting business and so for instance, in two thousand thirteen, this past year, where you forecasted that giving would be nearly flat at one point, six percent, then using your own number, it actually increased by nearly thirteen percent. How is a practitioner actually, then to use that information with the fact that they’re having to do their budget that much ahead of time, that they would have mess this philanthropic giving opportunity? Had they decided to conserve their budget with that initial estimate of just one point six? Well, as a as a practitioner for thirty years, i can give you the answer to that question in terms of budgeting, yeah, the forecast changes, i mean, things change nine eleven happens, the asian tsunami happens, events happen, and we’re keeping our finger on the pulse of american philanthropy. So as things change, the forecast changed, and that was true last year. Yes, our forecast at the beginning of two thousand thirteen was very, very modest, almost flat, as you said, and then it turned out to be a fantastic giving your if i was just trying to validate the atlas of giving, we try to make our numbers come out exactly to the forecast and we didn’t do that, and if you want to call that transparency, i think that’s pretty transparent because we finished, you know, we reported that giving was up more than thirteen percent last year on that was after our first and i want to say the first of twelve forecast for monthly forecast updated for two thousand thirteen. So as a practitioner, i would say, set your budget based on the best data you have and then monitor and update the budget as conditions change, we have to take a take a little time that zits tony time now so everybody can take a breather because i want to recognize our sponsors that helped me to produce incredible shows like today’s rally bound supports the show for our live tweeters, please, would you please give a shout out to at rally bound falik bound to makes simple, reliable peer-to-peer fund-raising campaigns, it’s friends asking friends to give to your cause as a non-profit radio listener, you will get a discount. People have been doing that. I’m very glad people are claiming the discount and calling talking teo rally bound it does not have to be an event. It could be any fund-raising campaign as an example, grades of green in los angeles used rally bound to raise twenty two thousand dollars. It was their youth corps grades three to twelve, and each member of the youth corps set a personal pages to ask their friends to give. There is twenty two thousand dollars third through twelfth graders, they’re at valley bound dot com or you could just pick up the phone and talk to someone you talk to joe mcgee, he’ll answer your questions about setting up a campaign i know joe, i had breakfast with rally bound ceo schmuley they’re good guys or else i wouldn’t have them as a sponsor. It’s really bound dot com or as i said, talk to jo mcgee triple eight seven six seven nine o seven six we’re also sponsored by t b r c cost recovery life tweeters please use t br si dot com teo give a shout to t b r c t brc dot com they save you money on credit card fees when donor’s make a credit card gift, they don’t change your company processing those credit card transactions not jane jing processors t brc. Talks to your existing credit card processor to get them to lower the feed that they charge you on each and every transaction. If they don’t lower your rate, you don’t pay them. It’s yourself, rabinowitz he is the genius behind the company. I’ve known yourself for nearly ten years, he’s no pressure. I wouldn’t work with somebody like that. You could talk to him. Two, one, two, six, double four nine triple xero or tb rc dot com i have a professional development survey on my blogged i’m interested in what it is that you do to keep current and fresh in your work naturally non-profit radio is at the core of your professional development, but what else? What’s what’s on the periphery around that non-profit radio core webinars, conferences, blog’s books, whatever it is i’m interested in, it doesn’t matter whether you’re in a non-profit or you do consulting, i’m interested in how you keep up with what’s new that survey is on my block at tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, twenty first of february eighth show of the year and as i mentioned one hundred eightieth show let’s, unpack a few. Things that came up in conversation there the question of the forecast. Greg dahna does. Does e-giving yusa provide a forecast for what will happen in the coming year? Let me take that question so let’s, just be clear the estimates that giving us he provides our projects shin, because the most recent irs data that we have is actually only available with a two year lag. So we are ultimately in the process of actually providing a forecast even about the current year that we’re in because the most up to date government data is not available until two years after the fact. So i do want to raise the point about a forecast it’s an important one. I agree with greg there’s, a need for more data, more reliable data within the sector. But we are concerned about atlas, at least the discussion around a monthly estimate, our monthly forecast because there isn’t an ultimate check off that estimate within the field because iris does not actually publish monthly data, so there would be no way to confer firm or not confirmed how accurate that forecast was against what actually happened. So the example i would give to sort of explain what a forecast is, the weather forecast is one that we all know well, but we can always check how reliable the weatherman wass because we know what happened in terms of was it snowy? Was it rainy on the challenge with the least the description of atlas of giving? We don’t ultimately know how this is done, because it’s not transparently provided is that there isn’t an ultimate benchmark for that monthly forecast or even the regional forecast that have been described. Okay, rob well, what about the forecast? Sure, we provide a monthly benchmark, but she’s questioning the how it’s validated the the best validation is those who use it, and i would say this, you know, one of the things we’ve learned since creating the atlas is dahna how money is raised and who money is raised from makes a huge difference in an organization’s success or lack of success and in the current economy, it’s it’s been a striking couple of years in that respect, because what we’ve seen is that organizations that rely on organizations and churches that rely on lots of small gifts from lots of small givers our are still struggling, and the reason that they’re struggling is because of the effects and after effects of high unemployment. Conversely, all you have to do is google record giving and you’ll see colleges and universities in particular and donor advised funds have had fantastic years for each of the last three years, and the reason why is it’s directly tied to the rebound in the stock market? And some rebound in in real estate prices, among other things, so different, and those organizations raise money very differently. Colleges and universities, college graduates have less than a three percent unemployment rate, so unemployment is not important for the kinds of people who typically give to colleges and universities. But for a church or a large national charity, like the one i used to represent. Thie american cancer society, lots of small gifts from lots of events and small donors. It’s a tough time, and so your question was about validation. Hyre you know, as a practitioner, i would say if if somebody presented me with the atlas forecast, i would be completely skeptical, but i would test it. And so if you said to me, it’s going to be better for me to have my event this year in august rather than october, i might not do that right away. But if it was a direct mail drop, i i think i would i would move not the whole file, but i’d use a small percentage of the file to test and see the results in a controlled study. And then as the as i determined that the forecast was reliable, i could move more and more of my fund-raising promotion activity to the months and times during the year when it is forecast to be the best and make more money for my organization. We have a question from alex daniels. This is directed at e-giving yusa. Alex is a reporter for a chronicle of philanthropy. He’s live tweeting for us. Uh, he’s questioning does giving us a provide a forecast? You know, i’m not. I’m not clear because you say you’re using data that lags two years, but you’re calling it a forecast for the future. So can you? Well, i let me clarify e-giving usa provides a current, so basically giving us this year will provide a nest estimate of what happened in twenty thirteen that is because the most recent data available to us is available with a two year lag. I want teo just emphasize so in a temple where providing is already a forecast based on what data is actually available and what is possible to verify and validate when it comes to monthly data, a monthly forecasting there is no reliable chair oppcoll giving data that exists at the monthly level on giving amounts and most of the economic variables that would be used to create a monthly estimate, i want to be clear, i’m talking about the monthly estimate rather than a national estimate. There really isn’t government data is also available at a lag on a monthly basis, so it would be almost a challenging to actually validate a monthly forecast for reasons one into a stated above and i think the same would be said about the state by state aggregate e-giving forecasts and estimates because in fact, no reliable data is available on giving at a state level that’s available in a timely and consistent basis. Itemized individual giving by state and geography legs two years or more. And so geographic data on corporate and be crossed data is also available at significant lags. I’m not available at the state level in any reliable way, so i think when we’re talking about a forecast, i understand the need for timely information. I think the non-profit sector would benefit from very reliable information, but that has the trade off between accuracy and speed and especially with the monthly forecasts have weaved as we’ve described it’s, very challenging to see how you would actually check the accuracy of that monthly forecast on dh. How is atlas actually held accountable to the sector on providing a monthly smb? Because, as we said, there’s, no outside data source that could be used, i think, no, no, no, no, i have to go, i’m sorry we have to take a break. I’m sure rob disagrees with a fair amount of what you’re saying and we’re gonna give him a chance. But we have to go out for this break, so please stay with us. We’ll get that we’ll get robbed to respond, and then i have questions about the timing. When these things come out january versus june and plus, we have some listener questions. Gosh, hang in there. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Welcome back. We got tons more live listener love new york, new york, moline, illinois. Austin, texas english town, nevada, pittsburgh p a. I went to college there. Carnegie mellon and wolf amass live listener left to each of you end, of course. Podcast pleasantries for the nine thousand of you night more than nine thousand of you who listen in the time shift whether you’re on your treadmill in your car, who knows where you are podcast pleasantries to you and i forgot to send them last week, so i’m sending another one this week. Podcast pleasantries. Everybody listening on their own schedule. Michael baker at my at m baker cfr, thank you very much for the shout out. We’re doing the best we can. I appreciate it. Thank you, michael. Okay, we got to give robert chance, teo, and they’re gonna get off the forecast subject. Rob, you want to respond to what is suggested about forecasts monthly for cause? She was talking at the monthly monthly forecasts. Not being verifiable. Well, i’ll tell you one way that you could make it immediately. Verifiable. We offer a product on our website for less than two hundred dollars, any? Non-profit or charity church can go on our website, answer six easy questions and backed up by a database of more than nine hundred ninety thousand cells individual cells of information, they can get a fiscal year forecast of what giving will be for their organization, and they can go back and update that forecast each month for twelve months. So if the forecast works, they’ll know and i will say also that one of the services that we also provide in charge for our regular monthly report is free, and that includes e-giving monthly giving by sector source in state and an updated forecast for each of the next twelve months. So that’s free. But we also use our technology to build a specific model for specific organizations, and when we do that, the accuracy of what those organizations actually achieve in their fund-raising and what we forecast that it would be is incredibly reliable. Okay, i have to give a shout. Teo tony macklin, m a, c, k l i n he wanted me to ask a question about what’s not covered by the atlas for giving us a or any other review. Tony, i’m at a time. But his concern i’m going, i’m going to give voice to his concern, but we’re not going to respond to it, so so you take a breath because you’re not going to respond to this. It isn’t time, but tony macklin, first of all, you can check it on my blogged at tony martignetti dot com he also blogged on his own block, and i’m sorry, i don’t have the name of that, but again, i just gave you his name. His concern is that for the charitable organizations that aren’t captured by data that’s reported to the irs, andi, i’m going to ask about churches shortly, but but he’s concerned about e-giving by people who don’t itemize on their taxes, for instance, or even down to the cash that we drop in jars at counters and buckets and on street corners. He’s also concerned about giving two organizations that aren’t five oh one see threes like advocacy organizations, civic organizations? What about crowdfunding platforms? Rally bound, our sponsor happen to be one of those? Well, not not the these two parties not capturing that andi, can’t we’re not going to give voice to anything i’m giving voice to tony. Macklin but when that’s he’s a blogger and he was good enough to submit a question in advance, please check his blogged name again. Tony c, k, l a and tony macklin. I would like to ask e-giving usa about churches. Oh no, you said, you’re you’re basing it on nine nineties, but churches aren’t required two churches and religiously affiliated non-profits aren’t required to submit nine nineties, they’re exempt. So are you missing that, or how are you capturing it? If you’re if you’re not getting it through the nineties? Very good. So the baseline estimate for religious e-giving in giving us is based on a tabulation of giving to the religion subsector includes congregations how’s the warship, not nine nineties, and once we develop that initial estimate, we have calculated the rate of change by working in partnership with religious entity such as the evangelical council financial accountability on that rate of change is what we apply to the base amount of giving to all types the religious organizations, including non christian houses of worship, which is a knife segway into the bloggers question i just wanted to mention that giving us he doesn’t take into account known itemizing stoploss diverse populations, including a number of immigrants authorities, would you? Yeah, you have to we have to cut off on it. That’s not fair, you’re transgressing again, you know, because i said, we’re not going to answer that. And now now you know, because it’s not fair, because i don’t know, i’m not we don’t have time to give rob wayto answer. Tony macklin is concerned. I’m just letting listeners know that he has those concerns. All right, we can raise owners mike when i’m sorry to do that to you, but trying trying to be fair here, you know you’re the researcher, you’ve transgressed twice, i’m watch, i got my eye on you, you see what happens theat, khadem ix to see what the academics because you used to standing in front of a class and but you can’t have your own way here. I got tio latto cafeteria cop in this in this food fight, alright, i apologize for doing that, but it is the only way i could get your attention, you know? Okay, let’s, talk about the timing that these come out rob the the adults e-giving comes out in january e-giving yusa comes out in june, um, i would think i’m going to get this to the atlas of giving folks because i would think that puts you at a disadvantage, because if non-profits tryingto develop a fund-raising plan for a year, how can they do that? If they have to wait until june of that year of the calendar year to see your results? And i got a whole caution. You really have about two minutes left in the show. Okay, i do think this goes back to our theme of reliability, the trade off between reliability and accuracy and speed. Final government data don’t are not available in until later on in the year for the previous year or even for the current period and also the process. The irs numbers only become available in the spring of the current here a swell and though their preliminary irs numbers so we’re back to the question of speed versus accuracy and the trade off. But what is the weight? But i but what is the non-profit to do? If if if they don’t get your numbers until june, right. So we do think that the june numbers provide a context for giving, and in fact, they are reliable. As we said, we’ve validated and verified that they did the monthly data available in january. With all due respect, atlas of giving is that it’s not even possible to validate and verified that number. And i do have to a question why someone would have to actually buy a product in terms of data, to figure out whether it’s okay, we’re gonna stop there. Wait, stop there, rob, you have about a minute. Well, that was a lot. You have a minute, okay? I would just say that you know, fortune five hundred companies if they were waiting for a year and a half to have information, if matile was waiting for a year and a half to have information or a forecast of what they know what’s gonna happen this this november and december and sails, they have some kind of a forecast and they’re banking on it because they have stockholders that are relying on it. So we’re using that most of the fortune five hundred companies half sales forecast that air using the same kind of technology that we use and that’s that’s what we’re about velocity and trajectory of giving. Ok, weare goingto we’re going, we’re going, we’re going to leave it there cause i have to wrap up and close the show. I’m not sure that we resolved anything, but i do think that constructive conversation is always very helpful. Maybe it just comes down teo culture. These are two very different organizations. I see atlas of giving as sort of young and upstart ishan entrepreneurial on dh, smaller and smart. I see e-giving yusa as also smart. Been around for decades, though i’m not sure what it’s forty or fifty years, but just grant me that it’s been it’s been several decades. They have a major institute behind them on that’s funded by a major foundation, the little foundations based in a major industry pharmaceuticals. So there may just come down teo culture. Which culture do you prefer? I don’t, i don’t know. I want to thank my guests. Thank you very much. Greg carlson, dahna osili and rob mitchell thanks to all three of you next week. An interview from bb con the blackbaud conference last october. I got so many great interviews there that i’m still airing them from from october next week. It’s going to be increase and engage web traffic and also scott koegler returns. He’s, our monthly tech contributor the editor of non-profit technology news going talk about making the move to the cloud rally bound and tb rc they support non-profit radio mics show make this show possible. Joe magee and joseph rabinowitz. They’re good people. Check them out, please. Rally bound dot com and trc dot com our creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam lever, which is our line producer, the show’s social media is by deborah askanase, a community organizer. Two point. Oh, a special shout out to deborah, thank you so much for all the advance work on this, a little more complex and interesting show. Thank you, deborah. The remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules also want to thank in the studio assistant producer janice taylor timekeeper. Our music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. They didn’t think dick tooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Get in. Duitz cubine. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour. Eleven a m. We’re gonna have fun. Shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a. M on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monte taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Talking dot com. Hyre
To the officers and boards of Atlas of Giving and Giving USA:
Things have gotten heated between you.
Forbes.com dubs it a philanthropy food fight. (I wish I had thought of that.) I am extending an invitation for you to talk to each other, instead of at each other through the media.
Rather than having journalists and editors reduce your explanations to 10-word quotes, let the community hear you directly.
You each are invited to have a representative appear on Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio for a civil discussion and Q & A about your respective products.
The date is Friday, February 7, 1 to 2pm eastern. You are welcome in the NYC studio on West 72nd Street, or by phone.
You may ask each other questions and we’ll crowdsource questions from listeners also. I’m certain we can do this politely. If not, I’ll keep order, with liberal sentences in Jargon Jail.
You each have had guests on the show before, so you know how I work.
RSVP by Thursday, January 30. You know how to reach me because I’ve worked with each of you. Or, put your reply in the comments and let the public dialogue begin!
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Marcia Stepanek, Ken Berger, and Rob Mitchell: Giving 2013
With me from Tuesday’s live stream of #Giving2013—the release of last year’s fundraising numbers and this year’s forecast from Atlas of Giving—are Marcia Stepanek, new media faculty at the Heyman Center for Philanthropy at New York University; Ken Berger, CEO of Charity Navigator; and Rob Mitchell, the Atlas’s CEO.
Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.
You’re on the air and on target as I delve into the big issues facing your nonprofit—and your career.
If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.
When and where: On Fridays at 1pm Eastern: Talking Alternative Radio
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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent your aptly named host can’t be in studio today. So me, your cosa, our host for the day, sam liebowitz, the show’s line producer and this week e-giving twenty thirteen it’s a rebroadcast of this past tuesdays livestreamed release of twenty thirteen fund-raising results and the forecast for twenty fourteen from the atlas of giving rob mitchell, ceo of the atlas, delivers a ten minute press conference style announcement. Then tony hosts the discussion with him are ken berger, ceo of charity navigator marcy, a sta panic new york university faculty member, and rob mitchell live, listener love and podcast pleasantries to all. Tony will be back next week. Here is giving twenty thirteen my name’s rob mitchell i’m the ceo of atlas of giving we’re a dallas based business concerned with monitoring the velocity and trajectory of charitable giving in the united states. First, a little background about the atlas of giving we have developed technology that allows us to estimate charitable giving by each of nine sectors each of four sources and fifty states each month. The atlas also provides the only regular and reliable forecast of giving by sector source and state for each of the upcoming twelve months each month, we produce an updated report of giving activity and an updated forecast. The report is available at no charge at atlas of giving dot com new reports come out and are available after the twenty first of each month today, i’m very pleased to announce that two thousand thirteen was a fantastic record setting year for charitable giving in the us, but i’m also here to caution that the initial forecast for twenty fourteen is much more modest. For the first time in two thousand thirteen, charitable giving crossed the four hundred billion dollar mark in the us, which bolsters the u s reputation as the most filling throb picked country on the planet. In two thousand thirteen, a total of four hundred seventeen point eight billion was contributed by individuals, corporations, foundations and through bequest that this money has benefited more than one and a half million charities and churches across our nation. Now this amount represents a thirteen point, three percent increase over the more than three hundred sixty eight billion given in two thousand twelve and it also is one hundred billion dollars more than given at the height of the great recession in two thousand nine. E-giving growth, this this tremendous giving growth was fueled largely by historic gains in the stock market, the down as many of you know, was up twenty six percent, the s and p almost thirty percent, and the nasdaq was up almost forty percent in two thousand thirteen. There were other contributing factors as well, and those included an improving employment picture, a recovery and real estate values. Schnoll very low inflation, low interest rates and improving growth in gdp. Every sector that we measure experience growth. However, several sectors perform significant significantly better than the national average, most notably, human services organizations were up more than nineteen percent, environmental charities, up eighteen and a half percent, and the education sector giving to the education sector was up sixteen point two percent. All three of those sectors have a high correlation to stock values their performance does, trailing in the national results in two thousand thirteen were our largest sector, which is churches and religion. Church giving has ah heidtke high degree of correlation with employment, and it is still dealing with the effects of high unemployment and will continue to deal with those effects for at least another year. Individual organizations, apart from churches that rely on many small gifts for many small donors, are still feeling the lasting impact of high unemployment and many of their donors out of work the atlas was giving looks it also at four sources of gifts individuals, corporations, foundations and bequest. In two thousand thirteen, the highest growth came from foundation giving, which was up more than nineteen percent. We believe that this was primarily related to stock performance in each of the last two years, the trailing source of giving was corporate gifts up ten percent. Now i’d like to look ahead two thousand fourteen and talk about the initial forecast for twenty fourteen today we believe that national giving will grow at a much slower pace than two thousand thirteen, so for two thousand fourteen, our initial forecast for the twelve calendar months is that giving will grow for percent. We fully expect that human services, environmental and education sectors will perform better than the average and that church giving will grow, but about it half the pace of national giving growth, please keep in mind that conditions can and do change and that the forecast is updated each month. Also, remember that the reliability of the forecast decreases the further out we look durney. So i would encourage you if you’re interested in keeping track of the forecast to check the monthly forecast that atlas of giving dot com every month one significant affect our event like a nine eleven event or a hurricane, hurricane katrina or a superstorm sandy, we’ll have a major impact on the forecast, so it’s important to keep checking next, i’d like to make four observations about giving from two thousand thirteen individual mega gifts of one hundred million dollars or more accounted for almost one percent of the entire national giving total in two thousand thirteen second, the second observation that we have is that we’re observing that coverage and discussion of the affordable care act. Obama care appears to be having a dampening effect on health e-giving and we are hearing anecdotal stories of people citing obama care as the reason that they’re curtailing their health e-giving ring, we will continue to monitor and report on this observation throughout two thousand fourteen third, we see that there may be a correlation between media coverage and charitable giving response in two thousand thirteen we most noted that give we most noted this in giving to environmental organizations and human needs organizations both have been particularly prominent in news reports and coverage over the last couple of years or since the recession forthe observation is that the hyre payroll taxes that began in two thousand thirteen did not appear to have any significant impact on giving. Now i’d like to talk about four trends that we’ve noted the first, and possibly the most important is that giving two churches is growing at less than half the rate of the fastest growing sectors. Now this is due to two two factors one is is a demographic church attendance and membership is continuing to decline. That’s that’s one reason the second reason is that most churches rely heavily on many small gifts for many small donors and are affected hyre by high unemployment and its after effects for several years. The second trend that we’ve noted is that the growth and donors advice funds is making a significant and positive contribution to giving in the us and his fundamentally changing our charitable giving economy. Third, the popularity of making gifts online continues to grow and improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the giving economy and then lastly, how an organization raises its money and who it raises it from, hasn’t a normal and enormous excuse me impact on fund-raising results to conclude, i’d like you to remember that the atlas of e-giving monthly report is available at no charge at atlas of giving dot com the complete report with the data for today’s announcement is there now, along with the press release for this announcement, also at atlas of giving dot com, we have an inexpensive forecasting tool on the website for less than two hundred dollars, and with answers to six quick, easy questions, any charity or church can immediately get an express custom forecast of giving for your fiscal year like our national forecast. Your express custom forecast is updated monthly for each of the next twelve months. I’d like to thank you for joining us today for this announcement on before i conclude, i’d like to give special a special shout out to tom moran and terran lubin and mutual of america for providing our facilities today. So ah again, thank you for joining us. I’m going to turn it over now to tony martignetti, the host of tony martignetti non-profit radio welcome to giving twenty thirteen non-profit radio is very proud to be co hosting e-giving twenty thirteen, with the atlas of giving many thanks to mutual of america for use of their beautiful thirty fourth floor boardroom. You may see in the background some some snow that’s, our thirty fourth floor view of the coming storm, the stone that’s arrived. We’re very glad that you’re with us on the live stream. If you want to join the conversation on twitter, use the hashtag e-giving twenty thirteen and i’ll see your questions. E-giving e-giving e-giving you’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get a drink. 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You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll with me is marshes to panic. She is new media faculty and advisor at new york university’s heimans center for philanthropy on twitter. She’s at caused global ken berger is ceo of charity navigator on twitter he is at ken’s commentary and rob mitchell you remember him on twitter, he’s at philanthropy man or it also looks to me like at philantech roman so if you want to do it at philantech roman, you could do it that way. He has a roman statue to me, it looks like it could be a century. Well, no, not a century general. It could be a roman general he’s i feel pretty pedestrian. I’m just at tony martignetti that’s that’s me on twitter. I’m going to ask rob teo to talk a little more so that we’re all starting with the same background and information. Rob, how does the atlas of giving prepare the review and the forecast? And how does it differ from the blackbaud index and e-giving yusa to the methodology? The atlas of first of all, i think it’s important to talk about why the atlas of giving came into being i spent thirty years as a practitioner in the non-profit fund-raising world and i was always disappointed that there wasn’t something available that had utility for me and benchmarking our results on a timely basis or related to our fiscal year, and there was no forecast available, and as a result of of my experiences a practitioner, i felt like there were there were correlations between charitable giving and certain factors in the economy, demographics and events. And so what we did was put together a team of twenty five phd level researchers and analyst and we examined over seventy different potential variables to determine their correlation with giving that had been public publicly reported over the last forty two years, and what we found was indeed, charitable giving is directly correlated with certain factors in the economy, demographics and events, and in fact, so we’ve built algorithms. The first one we bill tony, was for national giving the national giving figure and that algorithm when we first created it. So it measures the things that correlate to charitable giving and their strength. Give us an example a few examples of what some of those variables are. They range anywhere from stock market values, real estate values, consumer. Confidence too. Believe it or not, auto parts sales heimans okay. Oh, interesting. All right. Eso all econometric reported numbers from government sources at various levels. Yes. Okay. And so what we what what we have is we now have developed an algorithm for each of nine sectors each of four sources, and one for each of all fifty states and the things that are correlated to giving in each sector or different. For example, e-giving toe education has a high degree of correlation to stock values. E-giving two churches has almost no relation to stock market values, so the formulas are different for each of the sectors and each of the source. Okay, and how does this differ from the blackbaud index and giving yusa? Well, you know, not being a complete expert on either of those two things. I do know that the blackbaud index is based largely on i think now almost four thousand organizations that are blackbaud customers that they try, they’re able to track their data. I would say that it’s interesting if you’re a blackbaud customer to be able to see how your results compare against other blackbaud customers. Thie other thing that i think the blackbaud index is invaluable for is its online giving index it’s the only one that is available currently and then in terms of giving yusa the atlas of giving would not exist today had it not been for giving yusa weii, we took forty two years of their data to build our algorithms, and they have served our sector well for more than four decades. And what we’ve done is take it to a different level with a new technology that enables us to measure the velocity and the trajectory of charitable giving in the us. Marshall let’s, let’s, start with you just you know, generally you heard rob’s comments about twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen what your thoughts? Oh, a lot of factors, i think it’s very interesting. Of course, corporate giving is off course stagnant, lots of in-kind giving it again, i think what’s what’s really fascinating and i think it’s it portends more of the same, perhaps in future years is the trajectory of online e-giving i think it’s ah, now a small percentage but it’s it’s. Fascinating to see that technology is not only changing the way we give the changing our organization’s changing what’s. Required to engage donors and kind of turning those traditional fund-raising models kind of on their year online is is still a small proportion of total giving, but growing right quite rapidly, right? And it’s, not just the online it’s it’s what all of that online is doing to the engagement, all the online engagement and the way we run our charities, and and what what’s required of us to get more engagement? More fund-raising can. How about you? What you thought about twenty, thirteen, twenty fourteen? What we heard? Well, i mean, i think it’s a very interesting model and, you know, from our experience the mohr, different perspectives on charitable guy e-giving there are the better there is a posse t i think of different choices, so i’m pleased to see this is an alternative way of looking at at things. The other thing that strikes me right away is the question of what are the metrics and how transparent are they relative to the others that are out there were very big on transparency and there’s attention, i think here because on the one hand, you don’t want to give away your secret sauce. It’s your business. Model, but on the other hand, it’s critically important, i think teo make certain that you disclosed as much as possible so that people can look at it and make those comparisons to know for certain that the twenty five phds and what not or indeed going down the right road. So that would be one question that that i would have in terms of how ah, consumer customer non-profit would have some certainty about the question of the metrics and their transparency. Robbie wanna wanna gironde? I would say, ken, that it’s a great observation when we’ve heard many times before. Bonem and you use the term secret sauce and obviously, is the the formulas or proprietary, but i would also say that we are we’re in search of a collaboration with a major research university with whom we could disclose all of our methodology and all of our all of our results and the database of information that we now have compiled of giving by sector source and state back to nineteen, sixty eight so we would welcome the opportunity of including a an academic collaborative partner. That’s great. Okay, cool. Can rob mentioned? Well, we’re all talking. About over four hundred billion dollars in twenty thirteen. And rob mentioned a bunch of economic factors, the level of unemployment and low inflation from the watchdog perspective. What what else might you think is going on? Well, i think it’s really important to remember on i think the urban institute does some great work in this area, that from what we see, there are three buckets of money that thie non-profits sector relies upon, and this bucket of money, which is private contributions, is the smallest of the three buckets, the overall amount of money that goes into the sectors over a trillion dollars a year. Some say it’s a cz muchas one point five trillion government is estimated to give as much, if not twice a cz much depending on what you statistics you look at and then the biggest bucket of all and it’s very ironic in this world of social entrepreneurship is earned income, and it has been the case for a long time, with in the case of universities and so forth that’s the biggest bucket. So i think one of the trends that we see when you look at the overall picture, which is important to bear in mind, especially for a lot of direct service human-centered sargon is ations that rely predominantly on government money is government is imploding in many ways and, you know, there’s cutbacks going on, so so that is a scary sign. So i hope that you’re right, that the terrible giving is indeed mark it lee increasing because it’s going to need if, if that’s the case, it could at least help to fill some of that void for some of those charities that fit the profile, i think i think that that’s where we i think that’s the biggest trend right now, i think, is that we’re in the middle of dealing with the after effects of the great recession. Some people have observed that typical typically non-profits they sort of they go over the cliff there’s a sort of a delay factor because you have certain contracts and so forth. And i think that there’s it’s still going on for the non-profits and i think that’s that’s a big challenge for them. So that’s, why i really hope that you’re right, andi. I hope that research corroborates that you’re right because it’s going to be more important than ever, i think marcia human services yeah took off considerably from two thousand twelve to two thousand thirteen. And i know you have some thoughts. Well, uh, i think again what we’re seeing i told you, michael closer marchenese cycles it? Yes. Okay, uh, i think what we’re seeing is, you know, the introduction of a lot of free agents. I often say in our curriculum that we are seeing not just the one percent coming to the table, but a huge influx of the ninety nine percent coming to the table, which along with them bring new voices new causes, new ways of doing things and not to stick two heavily toe online. Right now, i think that’s the big opportunity here, i think that’s the big engine of giving in a lot of thie sectors. And so when we talk about human services, when we talk about crisis e-giving so much of this, this new platforms where there’s experimentation being done online and with some new platforms and new mobile e-giving i think these sectors are becoming the beneficiaries of some of that. Oh, and some of these new sources of giving that are being tapped on line, i want to get to ah first question from twitter again, you can join the conversation on twitter, use the hashtag e-giving twenty thirteen and i’ll see your questions. The first one is from lynette singleton at a cg for non-profits and this is for rob. Rob can can non-profits use atlas of giving to help develop their marketing communication plans and if so, how? I would say marketing and communications plans? Yes, also they’re solicitation plans because it’s going to be really exciting for practitioners to now be able to use the information on these forecast to make important decisions about when they would like to send out a direct mail piece when they’d like what’s the best time to schedule a special event? What is the best time to launch a capital? A new capital campaign that that sort of information has never been available before? And it’s a little bit scary? I wouldn’t advocate that any organization take their entire direct mail file based on the forecast and shift it shift a mail drop from from one month tio two four months later, but to test and see that the the the validity of the forecast is indeed correct would, i think, is the most prudent and the best fiduciary responsibility that anyone in a charity can have. All right, another question from stephanie meyers, thank you, stephanie. She would like to hear more about how the internet is changing e-giving and predictions for online e-giving who wants to monisha jump into that? But first of all, what does your your report on your surveys? They predict more of the same with online giving that this will continue to increase? Yes, yes, what can you share from from the way we don’t? We don’t specifically track online giving what we observe is that online giving is growing and part of that is a cannibalization of traditional methods of giving and part of it is really growth because new donors are attracted to the online platform, right? I think the you know, the point that the technology is changing behaviors it’s not just the tools. Ah, one of the big significant things coming out of ah lot of this activity now is thie ability for so many non-profits and charities to show not just tell proof is ah huge not only in marketing activities but engagement. And when you could prove show a video of something, it gets shared twice more often when you can prove with numbers can metrics that online giving an online platforms allow you to have that you didn’t have before it’s easily morris, inexplicably, you can start to prove to donors on amore continuous basis how that money is being spent, where it’s going and deep those non-profits that air using that kind of proof in those metrics, in these numbers, in the context in which we were discussing today ah, doing far better, early research is coming in ah, it’s changing everything, teo also, i think the last point on this is the change is coming because splatter of engagement, the the approach that most non-profits take to engaging donors is being shifted dramatically by the influx of social media and technology. It’s not just a question of taking someone in and then moving them along up the scale of the ladder now it’s worth vortex approach, where people engage in different ways across the life cycle. Oh, and to have those metrics and that online and those technology platforms looks inning to the tips things and forging those patterns. Is going, teo, create those new opportunities for giving. And i have. I have a lot of guests on non-profit radio talking about online engagement, finding donors on potential donors, where they are not where you’d like to engage. Have them engage with you, right. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m ostomel role, and i’m sloan. Wainwright were the hosts of the new thursday morning show, the music power hour. Eleven a. M gonna have fun shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. 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You may miss our culture and consultant services, a guaranteed to lead toe, right, groat. For your business, call us at nine one seven eight three, three, four, eight, six zero foreign, no obligation. Free consultation checkout on the website of ww dot covenant seven dot com dahna. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Can how about, you know, charity navigator? And in terms of the big data, i mean the information that’s available, the what the metrics that non-profits can share just first, just to say, i think the use of the term vortex is a good one, because that one of the strengths of of the internet is, you know, there’s so much information and the possibility for information, but it’s also the opportunity for so much abuse and chaos and and and misinformation and that gets to the question of quality information and the non we think the evidence points to the fact that in the future, as more and more reliance comes to the internet, the charities that will distinguish themselves that are most likely to do the best are those that provide the most quality and meaningful information on what they’re doing, where it stands today. Unfortunately, still the vast majority of non-profits do not publicly report in a meaningful way on their results and their a variety of reasons. It’s understandable for a variety of reasons, is cultural issues, there’s, technology issues and then there’s just capacity issues. But i think that the pressure is increasingly on the charities to move in this direction and it’s best you know, they need to find the good advice and a good assistance to get from where we are today to that point. And, you know, charity navigator is beginning to evaluate are the charities that we look at based upon the quality of how they report the results publicly, and we are finding indeed, that there is a long, long road ahead of us, and but we would really encourage the charities to to bear this in mind that in the future, in a nutshell, you know, the most successful fund-raising nowadays is still very emotionally based and storytelling based. And you, khun, use streaming videos very effectively, and that will always be the case that that’s powerful give you that granular level of understanding of how a charity is helping some people in a meaningful way. But in the future it will be increasingly important that i think it’s even now the future ah, that you need to have a t the end of that story to peel away and say and look here’s data, meaningful data that shows that this story happens every day here is meaningful reporting on our results, it’s not just activities it’s, not just overhead. It’s, not just outputs. It’s meaningful information about riel changing people’s lives called social value outcomes, that sort of thing. We think that more and more that will be the case. And the challenge will be to get the funding from the right funders to be able to build a system, to be able to report that information and that’s the challenge for the charities, i think and that’s again. Why i hope that they’ll be more charitable giving from individuals and other private sources to make that happen. Lots of hope onda future is here. The future is today. Yes, now, ken berger, charity navigator. You heard it here on giving e-giving twenty thirteen. You’re not going to find this kind of stuff anywhere else that you’re you’re in the right place. And if your friends aren’t here, tell him to join because they’re still another twenty nine minutes left. Um, let’s, go to another question about donor advised funds. There was a question dahna advice. Funds did increased considerably from twenty twelve. Twenty thirteen. Rob we heard that. Um let me see what the precise question was. I think it was just about what the aah! How? Donorsearch robin, you want, i’ll be happy to take that well, the growth and donors advised funds, especially in the last three years, has been phenomenal bonem the growth in giving to those funds and the grants that air coming out of those funds to benefit all the non-profits and churches has been very, very significant. And one thing that has been noted by several of the donorsearch advise fund managers is that they’re seeing a trend of people who have small, private family foundation’s moving assets, converting their assets from a foundation into the donor advised funds because it’s ah it’s less expensive to administer and less trouble. And so we expect that that’s going to continue and there’s also a lot of choice because doner can can start a donor advice fund, they don’t have to make a e-giving decision about where their money is going today and ken’s point about accountability. Accountability is on the minds of lots of donors, especially individual donors, and so they have the opportunity then to say, make a gift to their advice fund in one particular tax year and then not make a decision about where the money is going to go. Until later. So it’s it’s a great benefit i want to jump in and say that on this topic of accountability to it’s it’s not just where is your money going and how is it being spent? But also, how are you moving the needle? Why, you know, what have you done for us lately is very much on the minds of donorsearch it’s, not just about dahna where is it going? Oh, and it’s not just the usual prerequisites for what’s required in a report, i think the increased use of multimedia, the increased use of marketing, the trust factor all of these things, we’re seeing very creative non-profits moved the needle on this quite significantly. Charity water is, you know, one of the examples that that has really picked up, at least in marketing and some of the backend metric. Teo recognizing that trust is a huge issue. And basically reconfiguring it’s digital face teo, talk about here’s the proof here’s, here’s, the money stream where’s the money. So to the extent that a lot of non-profit behavior could be influenced by what some of these numbers are showing, they’re listening is doing in early platforms and dahna forums i think that’s, that’s critical. This is such an important segment of dollars that’s going to be coming to the table, please. Just one had one thing on donorsearch vice funds there is now for free, a called a df widget that was developed by a number of the large doner advise funds it’s completely neutral in the sense that a variety of them are using it now, and any charity can get thea widget and put it on their website to ah, expedite getting mohr donor advised funds, donations you, khun goto, fidelity charitable, schwab. Ah, and i think they’re building a number of others on there. So that’s, a free resource that people could get access to on that donor advised funds. Question came from council non-profits council. Glad you with our school. Let’s. Ah, let’s. Talk a little about states. New york. I know from the report was the most charitable state. That may be very ironic to a lot of a lot of people watching, but i don’t it’s not ironic to me. Or probably any of us. Well, maybe maybe for rob. Rob is based in texas, so maybe ironic for him. But new york was the most charitable state. Marcia, you’re at the heimans center, based here in new york at new york city, new york university. What do you think? What you think is impacting new york’s, uh, generosity. It’s, it’s, diversity, it’s it’s. Ah, so trick demographics. Ah ah, latto public private initiatives. Say what you will about from mayor bloomberg. Especially right. Hey, set up a very strong infrastructure. Tio have public private partnerships. He has also is a philanthropist set of standards, a lot of different kinds of giving lots of experimentation in area that i think it kind of sets the culture for this as well. Also to ah, again, you see in flux. And i hate to keep pounding on this, but i cannot underscore the importance of this. Enough. Where you see tech centers ah experimenting in cause giving, setting up new platforms, creating some of that. What you mentioned is the multi trillion dollar economy around the nonprofit sector that’s also adding into so much of what’s happening here. S o we’ve got the business technology business of non-profits we’ve got the influx of new giving, and we’re also seeing very interesting trends with women and philanthropy. Ah, and how ah lot of spending that hadn’t been happening in that sector is starting to time on and why you were going to be having a women’s summit. Look at this she’s pitching for in one go ahead what’s the date goes well, we’ll share the whole thing the girl, the hashtag give it all april twenty eighth um ah, and we will be posting more on that but it’s women giving hashtag women e-giving april twenty eighth and then right it was also the stock market that also helped. Yeah, a minor detail, of course stock market that goes with that saying does help new york city considerably. We have a bunch of questions terrific let’s see robin from a way we can handle this one kind of quickly from non-profit diversity us how khun jobseekers use the atlas of giving can they wow that’s when i’ve never been asked before you hear it first on give e-giving twenty thirteen it’s remarkable the breakthroughs that are coming and giving twenty thirteen i don’t know. I don’t know why everyone’s not here. I see somebody in the building across that is not at their screen there, they’re having coffee, but they’re not the screen, so that person is not benefiting from the wealth of wisdom and questions that are coming and giving twenty thirteen i didn’t go. I have had a feeling that you should think about it. I could be more long winded if is necessary. So i would say the best thing is to look at the trend. For example, if i were a job seeker, i would be looking at i would be looking at jobs in the sectors which are the fastest growing. Currently that would be the human services sector, the environmental sector and the education sector, and i would, uh i’d be more cautious if i were seeking a job in the church of religious sector, and i know that that is tough, because if you’re committed to a life of faith professionally, you’re going to stay in it, but also, you know, the health sector underperformed the national average and it’s something to at least think about take a look at all right dahna another question. I saw chris tuttle asking more show the audience would like me to admonish you that they’re having trouble hearing you. Thankyou okay tend to gesture with your microphone. Oh yeah, so i don’t know. Hold them. Figure out something. There you go. Don’t okay, don’t gesture with your mic, chris asks. Do you think we’ll see a plateau in online giving increases anytime soon? Is that the possible toe perfect? Ah there’s always this cycle with technology that it’s overrated in the beginning, underrated for the long term and the various cycles and generations of backlash is stepping forward, stepping back, stepping forward, trying to figure out how to use it more effectively. And so on so forth, i don’t think we’re going to see a plat plateau of online giving, i think again, the factors are threefold one you have this ninety nine percent coming to the table two you’ve got a fresh supply of ninety nine percent coming to the table thanks to a lot of service learning programs in schools that are helping to expand the culture e-giving from early age is keeping it close. You’ve got a lot of new causes and new startups. Ah lot of silo comes silo crashing between the for-profit for-profit sector in the nonprofit sector in terms of social enterprise is a lot of that stuff gets counted there’s a lot of new activity coming from a lot of places and a lot of it is happening online just can online just just yet two things. One is just a case in point that online giving is just that it’s beginning point charity navigator is a website. We are a charity and all we do is a website. The majority of our giving still comes from people writing checks and sending them to us in the mail. And ah, the critical nature of continuing that form of fund-raising will not end any time soon. So that’s just a a and i think we all agree on that. But just as a cautionary note, i think the other thing is, you know, i i i think it’s really important for us to bear in mind this different types of organization. The one percent of charities in this country that in our estimate get eighty six percent of the funds each year, and the remaining ninety nine percent that get about fourteen percent from our analysis. But i would say it’s, not the ninety nine cents the ninety nine percent that are coming to the table. It’s, about ten to fifteen percent mb or the vast majority of charities in this country are fifty thousand or less, and their capacity on the internet may never be there. But don’t despair. Those males checks from your friends and neighbors will still be very important in this in this future of ours. It’s never in either it’s never an either or scenario. Here, it’s it’s. You know there’s always the cake is always the traditional forms of giving and that’s not going to go away. Nor should it. Of course not. But this cake has a thickening frosting on the top. And ah, it’s, very sweet. And, uh, it will continue to attract ah lot of people who, you know i’m sorry, but five dollars, ten dollars, twenty dollars. Pretty soon it’s real. Money and we’ve seen it over and over and over again in specific campaigns. The challenge will be, of course, tow. How to use these tools more strategically against mission. Just one push back on that. I mean, i agree in concept, but the game in the nonprofit sector has been and remains he or she who does the best marketing winds and that includes the internet and the charities that are most likely to do the miss best marketing are the ones who have the most money, which tends to be the one percent. I do think the internet is beginning to open up a window for some of the sort of mid sized savvy organizations that have some resource is for marketing. But still the basic dynamic of the big charity is winning, and the smaller charity’s not having that capacity losing is there. The hope is that there’s more of a window than their wass, and i agree with you there well in in a void of transparency. Unfortunately, sometimes the pretty package gets the most attention. But i disagree with you that it are increasingly we’re going to see the charities that are not just good. At pretty packages, but the charities that air good through the use of these tools in distinguishing their most influential supporters. Oh, and can use those strategically for not only comprehensive marketing strategies, but integrated fund-raising strategies that are going to be the winners that are going to lead also just real engagement mean a small local charity. The vast majority you said have budgets under annual budget is under fifty thousand dollars what’s the percentage you notes around it’s almost fifty percent of all chairs and have ah, i have a budget under fifty thousand dollars, right? But i mean, i’ve always thought this opens up an enormous opportunity online for, for real, for local engagement, if if you’re fund-raising on ly in your town, even not even all over your state exact, i think i think it creates enormous opportunities strategies that can do this smartly and expense. I want you to be right, and i mean, all of what we’re working on hate can burger no, no, seriously, i want i want that to be right. That’s what we’re working on is to try to get to that point where that is what? That that it’s no. Longer. Here she does. The best marketing winds. It’s. He the charity that has the best results and really helps the most people wins, is where what we’re talking about here. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. I’ll give you an analogy. I just saw this last night on new york tv ah full page ad for radio shack in nineteen ninety one and every item listed on the page a camcorder ah, a cellular phone, a computer, every item listed on the page, if bought separately, would run into the thousands of dollars today in two thousand fourteen, we have every capability of every device listed in nineteen, ninety one in our smartphone, and we treyz he was right networked community is maturing to the point where using those smartphones and connecting people in real time is having a huge impact. We see it every day on small do you have a production studio in your pocket? Look at yelp and distribution, production and distribution. Look at yelp. Oh, and increasingly we’re seeing yelps for non-profits i mean, the point of this is that the locus of power is increasingly thanks to some of this technology moving outside the traditional organizations and so there’s a lot of demand, new demand for accountability that needs to be heard. And, you know, we’ve seen this everything from the common controversy to others, politics aside, the way these things need to be handled is with more engagement from the start, in fact, your donor’s, certain demographic donors. But i’ll argue most donors want to see more accountability, and they want to know that there are answers on the other on the other end and that you couldn’t take less than a day to answer an email. Let’s, go back to some questions, kenny siegler, maybe you khun deal with this one kind of quickly, uh asks, is there any data in the report regarding generational giving? Are you tracking generational giving? We’re not, or or or by gender? Well, we have no gender or age related e-giving information, okay. J angeletti from the angeletti group, do you think the next generation of donors is reaching its prime? And can we start to expect impactful gif ts from them? Yes, he’s referring teo, millennials reaching there, you know, i would say i would say one of the things that you and i can’t define this as a trend, but just an observation is that, and it relates to the to the last questions that we were talking about in terms of engagement and online. Is that the smaller niche? More? Nimble organizations that make good use of technology, i think, have an advantage with the next generation of donors, and they’re there there by nature mohr, accountable and transparent and that’s what the next generation of donor is looking for so much of engagement is, is you think of tom sawyer and non-profits khun b the tom sawyer and get everybody else to paint the fence in terms of leveraging their ask in terms of leveraging volunteer engagement. This is an amplification technology. This is also listening technology, how critical it is to now be ableto listen by setting up these platforms to what donors have to say. So there are this donor relationship management it’s no accident that non-profits are hiring data analysts of their own or getting into you talk about pretty packages info graphic ex things like this to more succinctly say what they’re about distinguished in a tweet oppcoll length of time that’s so what? Why this? Why now? Why us? So what? You know again i think that the technology can be good used for good or ill and the packaging can be meaningful and the packaging khun b junk and the challenges for people to be able to discern the difference and that’s why, i think increasingly groups like charity navigator and others are going to be in a critical role to try to discern what is quality and meaningful information. And what is just pretty packaging of claiming accountability when there isn’t any. So that’s again, why we, you know, i totally agree that we want to get to the right place here, but we need to keep our eyes wide open of the challenges that we’re going to face and those charities out there that aspired to do the right thing you will have. I think you know that challenge of the good and the bad information, and we urge you to try to find the role models out there like charity water, you know, and others that are really on the cutting edge of of trying to promote themselves with that meaningful information. Marshal. Let me askyou charity water. It is mentioned often. Can you name some others? I’m kind of putting you on the spot or core can some others that you think are doing online engagement particularly well. Owe the american red cross the national wildlife federation? Um, traditional organizations born digital organizations as well the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america association setting up a private social network to basically convene vets who have come home and let me ask you same, you know, it’s it’s funny, because i think that what we’re fine, what we’re finding is even the early adopters of really measuring results the most they often are sort of these midsized organizations, they’re not the really large ones and they’re online presence and they’re promoting themselves were so we’re trying to say to them brag show off, you should be proud, and they’re still in the early stages of developing their online presence. So nurse family partnership, smaller groups like roca in boston, harlem, children’s zone, there’s they still have a ways to go even those those that have the most to share really need to get more savvy about how they’re presenting themselves online, and i think we talked about a lot of different things here. We’re talking about engagement of donors, traditional donors and new ones for talking about the quality data like december and analyzed. We’re also talking about outreach and marketing when we all of those to see what’s possible, i can give you a really example. We were recently in conversation with anat, a large, very large, a national organization that is comprised of nine hundred different organizations. They all have. They do not have a single fiscal year. They don’t share a single fiscal year. They don’t share a single database, so their ability to do any amount of planning at an umbrella level is almost non existent. What we hear so often, eh? I edited contribute magazine for many years. And we would hear this. And i know you look into this now so passionately. You know, this lack of standardisation this lack of you know this this proliferation of apples and oranges here. What are we measuring? What? Where is the standard? How much can we really forecast? How much can we really demand in terms of accountability? And how much can we really compare who’s doing one thing well or best? Ah, if there is very little transparency very little that our government demands in terms of disclosure and very few common standard. And i know there’s a lot of movement in the field to get to some kind of common. Set of metrics on and i applaud those efforts, but we’re not there yet, and i’d be interested to hear what you have to say. And then where is this going to go? How close are we getting any closer to having some kind of riel in depths analytical cloud here? You know, we recently signed a letter called the overhead myth letter, and it says a website overhead myth dot com, which basically was a letter to the donors of america that said, you know, overhead should not be the primary focus on the primary focus should be results, but at the same time they’re neat way all think there needs to be a second letter to the non-profits of america that says, hey, we’ve sort of given you some bit of ah wiggle room on overhead, but now the donors have know where to look for the thing we say is most important for them to look for, which is the results and so that that’s why i think the mo mentum and the challenge of this is critical, we’re going to continue to be involved in whatever way we can with all the groups that are working. On this, to try toe dr standards to set standards, to come to consensus on standards for how we go about measuring that’s a great resource called perform well, that’s trying to help with that, for example, and so i rich people to check that out, but we’re still in the early stages of this road and, ah, you know, we really need for there to be more early adopters that really understand that it’s not about the watchdogs, it’s, not about anybody, but we want to meet our mission in the most powerful way, the most effective way we can to help the most people we can. And ultimately maybe you’re not going to see it today, but we believe all the evidence is pointing toward more and more those charities, those non-profits that go down this road ultimately are going to be the most successful fund-raising wise as well as helping people wise. So it’s a win win on every level level if we get there and can i’d like people to know that you were on my show on non-profit radio, along with the other two co signers talking about first time the three of us sat down and been interviewed at the same time around what led to the overhead myth letter and ah, what you think is coming from it. So that show was think that was october or november of last year, i think was october okay and and actually have been to convene ings just this last week. So there’s more and more of a desire amongst some of the leadership groups in the sector to try to push this forward and continue to continue that conversation. And a lot of charities have told us that they’ve been very effectively able to use that letter to educate donors. Tio the what we consider to be the other factors that are equally, if not more important than that. But but non-profit media was first yes, i think yes to first. Quint. Convening that’s. Right. That’s, right. Subsequent is the controlling i promised to share the mic with marcia. I feel like i got emasculated, but but yours was not working so well. So we’re going to share her. We’re going to we’re going to share. I told you i hit ken berger. See, i knew there was a reason i knew was coming. Um and we just have a couple of minutes left. Let’s. See, uh, gene takagi is asking, has giving two non don’t advised. Fundez public charities, uh, jeanne, the lawyer, i’ii organizations that provide direct charitable goods and services grown. Yeah, sure, yeah, absolutely no question about it. Okay, there’s. Another question about donor advised funds. I just recovered that okay? Foundation giving foundation giving grew considerably. Rob wanted just remind us what the foundation giving numbers were condition growth. Do you remember? I don’t remember, okay, but it grew considerably from two thousand twelve to two thousand thirteen was the best performing sector. Okay, our source. Excuse me, sore sore source of giving and there’s a reason for that with the tremendous gains in the stock market and now with increasing real estate values, lots of the assets of foundations air held in the those two places and the way that reporting happens is i think most people are aware of the fact that the foundations are required to give away five percent of their assets each year. Well, it’s not necessarily the assets that are valued in the current year it’s the assets in the previous year and partly in the current year, depending on on when their fiscal year is and when they do, they’re reporting. So there is a lag between the stock market values and what foundation giving is going to that means, twenty fourteen has enormous promise for for charities seeking foundation support if i was twenty thirteen asset values. Increased considerably. Absolutely. If i were still a practitioner and planning my fund-raising strategy for two thousand fourteen, i would be shifting. Resource is into foundation grantmaking opportunities. Marshall, you want to come in, i’ll going to be still the mic. You won’t say anything about the foundation giving up attorneys there. I think we’re also seeing a lot of healthy it’s continuing. Sometimes call some of the major foundations kind of the you know, of course, the gates foundation is the wal mart foundations. I love the influence of having discipline, uh, the non-profit sector. So we’re not seeing a different we still have twenty seven different breast cancer charities in new york. Uh, yeah, you can, because, yeah, so so you know, one of the things that were also seeing is that, again, this gets back to the overhead issue, that there are more and more foundations that are becoming educated to the fact that if they give a charity eight percent overhead, just the infrastructure cost to manage that grant, let alone their operations, is inadequate. And as these foundations are increasingly requiring, reporting on results and not giving what is probably more resource is required infrastructure wise build a performance management system in the charity um but there is encouraging signs that at least some cherry some foundations are beginning to move in that direction of reducing their caps on overhead to the same degree, providing mohr assistance with building performance management so you can measure result but it’s also important that charity’s become their own advocates to educate. And encourage, they’re found the foundation supporters to help them in this regard, and some even bring the overhead letter with them. But it’s really going to be more and more important for the foundation community to step up and to also be early adopters to help the charities to become more focused on their results. Marshall, i’m going to give you the last question, but we only have a couple minutes left. Andi need to wrap up too. So this comes from colorado gives i’d love to understand where the statistics for online giving are coming from and where is the growth? So again, we suffer from a lack of standardization, but they’re in ten has some great statistics non-profits technology network, we have statistics in some research that gnu is starting to do in this area. People find that they will soon. Ah, and we also have some ah, a collective looking at tech soup and other places where these implementations, not to mention, you know, consulting firms and black bods, but you blackbaud all of that. So it’s it’s consistently these results nobody’s arguing with each other in terms of the trajectory nor the nor the growth the pace of the growth is a little arguable, but everybody ah, i haven’t heard anybody say it’s not going to be growing significantly. All right, we’re going to aa. We need to wrap up. My weekly podcast is tony martignetti non-profit radio there’s. Information about it at tony martignetti dot com. If you are viewing the the stream from tony martignetti dot com right below the viewing window there’s on at sign and you can click that and get weekly newsletter alerts. Aboutthe show email, email alerts about the show, thanks to very much thanks to my co host robb mitchell, and the atlas of giving is a real pleasure to do this. Thank you, tony it’s. Been it’s been great. And, of course, we want to again thank mutual america for this beautiful space on the thirty fourth floor at aa on park avenue and marshes to panic. Ken berger, thank you very much for sharing wisdom and thank you for being with us for giving twenty thirteen. The ring didn’t think dick tooting getting dink dink dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get a drink. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level? And it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three backs to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people! Hi, i’m ostomel role and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour eleven a m we’re gonna have fun shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a m on talking alternative dot com you’re listening to talking alt-right network at www. Dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Dahna