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Nonprofit Radio for January 29, 2024: Decolonizing Wealth

 

Edgar VillanuevaDecolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

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And welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be forced to endure the pain of hyper garsia if you tickled me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming? Hey, Tony, this week it’s decolonizing wealth. Edgar Villanueva’s book, Decolonizing Wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism including philanthropy can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native American working in philanthropy. This originally aired November 30th 2018. On Tony’s take two, Tony tells a joke were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org here is decolonizing wealth. It’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio, Edgar Villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of Native Americans in Philanthropy and is a board member of the Andris Family Fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grant making school at Grand Valley State University and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the Shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s held leadership roles at Kate B, Reynolds Charitable Trust in North Carolina and Marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle. Edgar is an enrolled member of the Lumby tribe of North Carolina. You’ll find him at Decolonizing wealth.com and at Villanueva Edgar Edgar. Welcome to the studio. Thank you, Tony. Pleasure to be here. Congratulations on the book. Thank you, which just came out uh Last month, it was October October 16th. Yes. All right. And uh you just had a very nice interview with the New York Times. Congratulations on that. They, that prep the preps, preps you for nonprofit radio. Right. Right. I’m ready. All your, all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. So the, the it’s all culminated here. Um and I promised listeners uh footnote one, footnote one to hyper gargle ashes. Uh Of course, anybody who listens to the show knows that uh I open with uh something funny like that. A disease. Every single show. Uh But in Edgar’s book, he uh mentions hyper gargle aesthesia. So this is the first time over 400 shows that the uh that the guest unknowingly has uh provided the opening disease state. So, thank you very much you didn’t know what we do that, every single show, um, that you didn’t know that you’re not listening to nonprofit radio. It’s, it’s your life all right. Um, ok. Decolonizing wealth. Uh, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re a bit of a troublemaker a little bit. Yeah, you’re raising some eyebrows. Someone told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of, uh, philanthropy. Which, um, I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way but that’s not all bad. Get a little closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just not almost intimate with it almost. Um I used to call myself the Charlie Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he, he ruined that. Uh It, it’s, I can’t use that any longer. Um Could you talk about uh colonizer virus and exploitation and division? Um uh like, these are bad things? Yes, they are bad things. What uh what is the, what, what, what’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to decolonize so many of us who uh work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? Um you know, um have this firewall that we are completely disconnected from um Wall Street or from capitalism or, or some of those uh processes and systems in our country that um may have a negative connotation for the, the good doers. Um But in philanthropy, we are not very far uh uh you know, disconnected from uh corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses. Um sometimes uh not in the best ways, not in the back of a lot of indigenous and uh colored people. Yeah, when you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so uh legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. Uh but, you know, uh when we look back and we see in general how wealth was accumulated, um you know, especially I’m from the South North Carolina, we’ll talk about that. Um There absolutely was a legacy of slavery and stolen lands that, that help uh contribute to the mass of wealth. And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of uh Native Americans. Yeah. So, you know, we uh as a people talk about healing a lot, we have a lot of trauma that exists in our, our communities. Um You know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in North Carolina and especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact, but uh colon and the uh the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, uh native communities across the country, even as recent as uh my grandparents’ generation, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still, we’re experiencing a lot of uh trauma as a result of these practices. Um But we are, are, we are resilient people and um those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we are trying to solve today. Um As a society have um a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table. You say that the natives are the original philanthropists. Um Now you’re a member of the Lumby tribe of North Carolina. Uh Robinson County, North Carolina, which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west I think of, of Robison County. Lumb. So the Lumby tribe, I assume the lumber River is named for the Lumby and Lumberton, the town name for Lumby, right? So Lumby were actually named after the, the lumber River. Um After the first, yeah, the river came first and so the river came first. The name of the river came from. The river’s been there much longer than the one. Yeah. So we are um you know, a hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal North Carolina um that came together to form the Lumby tribe and named ourselves after that river. Um And we’re gonna come back to uh Native Americans as the, as the original philanthropists. But uh I I that, that struck me a lot. I think you, you, you say you say that at the end of the, at the end of the book is where I, where I caught it. Um uh We just have like a minute and a half or so before a break. So just, you know, we’re introducing this, uh We got plenty of time together. Uh Wealth. Uh You say um divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about? So the accumulation of wealth. So I money in itself is neutral, wealth in itself. Iii I say is, is neutral, but it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value um when we, you know, fear and we’re motivated by greed. Um The acts that can result as a, as a result of that to exploit the land and to people are or what that’s what has caused the harm in itself. So um the case that I’m gonna make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has caused trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got uh seven succinct steps to that. Uh the second half of your book, it’s time for a break. Open up new cashless in person donation opportunities with donor box live kiosk. The smart way to accept cashless donations anywhere, anytime picture this a cash free on site giving solution that effortlessly collects donations from credit cards, debit cards and digital wallets. No team member required. Plus your donation data is automatically synced with your donor box account. No manual data entry or errors, make giving a breeze and focus on what matters your cause. Try donor box live kiosk and revolutionize the way you collect donations in 2024. Visit Donor box.org to learn more. Now, back to decolonizing wealth, Ngani Behi. Uh That is your Indian name. Did I by any chance say that correctly? I, I think that’s correct. Um I’m, I’m a little shabbu with my ojibwe these days. You don’t know your ojibwe, but that is your Indian name. Uh uh leading bird, tell the story of how you got that name. We, we’ll come back to, don’t, we’ll come back to the exploitation and control, don’t we? That this is a good story. How you got that name? So um my tribe and the Lumby tribe in North Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming um you are whatever your mom calls you, that’s your name. Right. Right. So, um but uh when I, when I was working in North Carolina in native communities, I went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone uh the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with, with him to, to talk or have a session and growing up in North Carolina. My identity as a native has always been quite complicated. Uh We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh, North Carolina. And so, but I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and to um see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me if you’re, if you’re really lucky when you meet with a medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um And so I met with this guy in, in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado where this, this native health conference. So it was all uh I tell the story in the book is quite um um hilarious in, in many ways. But at the, at the end of our session where I was feeling um excited about, you know, the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I’ve, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. Um He did offer me a native name, Ngani Beche, which means leading bird. Um So I was very honored and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right? Am I a little tweety bird or am I a mighty eagle? Pelican birds are best? So, um he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a v formation. Um And uh as I, when I left, I, I studied uh these birds and, and they’re the leading I’m the leading bird. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible, but really understands its uh coded dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V formation, it’s really like a, an amazing natural, natural phenomenon. Uh how uh how they, they, they communicate and fly together. Uh The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird forward. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And, um, when I, when I learned these characteristics, um I, I just felt really, um uh I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life. And I think it’s the type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector. You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered, um, they’re, they’re just close enough that they can feel like vibrations off each other and, or a micro movements, I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, and, you know, be injured, but that’s how they, and they, I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close. But not so close that they’re gonna be injured. Yeah, it’s very, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, a GPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds, um, is that, uh, you don’t ever find one that, uh, dies alone. And so, you know, I, I wanna learn and research that a little bit more but I think when they’re, when someone is down or, you know, um there’s an injury or whatever may happen. Uh They, there’s, there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, um you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our inter related, you know, being interrelated exactly our interdependence. Now, this is a, this is uh an indigenous uh belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of the birds also working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how, how explain this, this belief that we are each of one of us related to the, to all the other. Yeah. So there, there is a, a native belief, um all my relations that means um you, all of our suffering is mutual, all of our thriving is mutual. And uh you know, we are um we are interdependent and so it’s a very different mindset or worldview um from sort of the um American individualistic type of uh of mindset. Um We also have connected to that viewpoint is, um, this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives, um, and we are related to the land and to the animals around us, but all of the things, all of the decisions and, um, that we are making today are gonna impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our um our young people. And so these are concepts that um were taught to me by my family. But I also uh in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that and to think about um how to apply them in my work and you encourage us to each that, that each one of us takes responsibility for, as you said, we, we’re thriving and suffering together. Um What I’m referring to is the, each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus, say, say more about that. Yeah. So, you know, I think we all responsible, we’re, we’re all responsible because we’re all affected. Um I think some folks um when we, when you know, when we learn about colonization in schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We um we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes. It’s like the natural path of progress, the way it’s learned, right? We have holidays, you know, for, for Christopher Columbus, for example. And so, uh but the realities are that colonization um was something that was terrible that resulted in uh genocide and all types of exploitation. And uh that type of history that we have in this country is something that we um as, as the people have not come to terms with. We actually, we don’t tell the truth, we don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. Um And so the dynamics of colonization which are uh to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. Um You know, II, I refer to them as uh the colonizing virus because they, they are still in our bodies as, as a nation, they show up in our policies, our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy where we are um sitting on uh lots of money, privilege and power uh the least naturally to your point about us, them organizations. So, you know, I think the philanthropy uh for example, can perpetuate um you know, the dynamics of colonization because when you look at um uh where this, where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. Uh When you look at um ask the question of why this money was held back from public coffers um that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting the safety net in vulnerable communities. Um And when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend it, you see a very um white dominant kind of mindset happening because, um for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, um foundations sit on $800 billion of assets. That’s a lot of money that has been uh you know, sheltered from taxation, that’s money that would have gone into public education, uh health care, elder care, um things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. Um But that money has been put there with little to no accountability. Um Private foundations are only required by the IRS to uh uh pay out 5% of their assets. And so then, you know, you’re looking at just a small percentage of, of money that was intended to be for the public good. Only a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in communities. Let’s assume it’s, it. Uh I know there are a lot of uh foundations that use that 5% minimum as their maximum. So that’s so 5% of that would be $40 billion. Uh So the counter is, but there’s $40 billion coming each year could be more, but let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And, you know, we’re trying to preserve this uh this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if, you know, if we, if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations, we’re trying to, you know, we, we wanna be around for in perpetuity. Uh The foundations would say. Right. Right. And, you know, I think, I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. Uh But the, the truth is that 5% when Congress had acted that 5% rule, um it actually began at 6%. I, I believe in 1974 and then in 1976 was lower to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are, are wealthy, the wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the, the sake of having a tax break. And so that, that uh IRS minimum payout of 5% that rule was put in place to force um foundations to actually begin making grants. And so, you know, so it is sort of uh the other thing to explore if you are with a 95% that is not leaving the doors. Um if the intention is really to do good in community. We have to look at how that 95% is then being invested to generate more money for future grant making. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up in harmful and extracted, extractive indus industries um that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundations. You make the point often uh that often, right, those investments are in uh are in industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through its, through its mission. And, and in fact, funding um the um there was something else that I was going to ask about the uh the way the money is. Um All right. Well, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um There’s, there’s a lot that organizations can gain by hiring people of color, indigenous people. What, uh and, and very few uh you’re, you’re a rare exception um working in, in found doing foundation work. Uh What, what’s the, what make explicit th those uh those advantages? Sure. So, um you’re right. I’m absolutely um an exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 native Americans that I could find. We kind of found each other. And what year was that? Uh this was in 2005 and we are now, uh there’s about 25 of us now. Um The last time I counted. Um So, yeah, there’s, there’s, you know, an an amazing opportunity for foundations. And I think more and more foundations are understanding, to bring uh folks in uh to, to foundations that have lived experience and not only foundations but, but nonprofits, the NGO S doing the ground work, the foundations are the funders. Uh and, and of course, some foundations are now actually doing their own ground work. We’re seeing that emerging but, but for the nonprofits doing the day to day work as well uh represent the communities that you’re absolutely, it kind of makes sense, right? And uh you know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of nonprofits. They ask about the diversity of their staff and their board, but they themselves have no type of uh you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re, you know, the, the point is that uh for sure that any nonprofit or foundation to, to have folks uh that, that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is gonna bring an awareness and um you know, about the problem in, in a different way, it’s gonna create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies that, that make sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in uh strategic planning processes and board meetings where decisions were being made. And uh I always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, and spirit into the room and uh I hear these decisions or these conversations and I’m thinking like, oh my God, like, you know, this, you know, this, this would not in any way help my mother or my family that’s still living in poverty. Decision makers are disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. And uh I, I thought of what I was gonna ask you about or just comment on the, the foundation wise. We do see some foundation saying that they’re gonna spend down their assets. Uh I, I wouldn’t say it’s uh needle moving but you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation that’s committed now to spending it. It’s, it’s assets down, you know. Um Was Paul Allen, was it uh now the not Paul Allen? Uh the Microsoft uh I think the Microsoft founder, co founder who recently died. I think his foundation was Paul Allen. OK. OK. Um I was thinking of Steve Allen the com the old comic. OK. That’s why I thought, no, it wasn’t him but it was Paul Allen. I think his foundation is one but there are some, so we do hear some glimmers. Uh But you say in the book a few times uh people we need to move the needle. Yeah, I think, I mean, I think deciding to spin down is uh is a very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now um if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spin down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um There, there’s a lot of amazing work happening. Um Right now that is so under resource that if we could um support and get behind investing money in these various movements and these uh in, in communities of color, which are so um marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh uh the 5% that is being invested, only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. That would make a big difference. And so I think, um you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards of foundations should think about what is the value of, you know, why, why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like what is, is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Um Because in some ways, it feels uh I can see that as being a very selfish type of uh you know, uh uh way of thinking uh if this was CNN uh right now, I would, I would play a video of you but I don’t, I don’t have that. Uh But in your, in your times, uh we have to work on that at Talking Alternative. We need, we need video capture and screens and everything uh in your video in, in your interview with uh David Bornstein New York Times, uh you said by not investing more in communities of color philanthropy, venture capital, impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions. Yeah. You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the Canaries in the coal mine sometimes when, when uh policies fail or systems fail, um we hurt the hardest and uh but there’s just something so magical about and, and sense of pride that I have about my community because we are so resilient, like, regardless of um you know, um all of the trauma, the colonization, the um you know, genocide, stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. Um And so there’s, there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would, if I weren’t native, I would be interested to know like, what when you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Um Indigenous peoples around the world are on the front lines of saving this planet on, you know, um you know, really fighting for environmental protections. Um There, there’s so much wisdom and, you know, often when foundations roll out new theories of change or changes RC strategies or there’s a new model or theory, theory of change that comes up. And I’m like, wow, we’ve been doing that in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we would, we can get there faster. Is there still a lumby community in Robeson Robinson County. Yes, there are, there are about 60,000 enrolled members in the Lumby tribe. The bulk of our community is, uh, still in Robinson County now, I have a North Carolina driver’s license. Will that, will that get me in? Can I be in? You know, we, we’re very inclusive. We, uh, we, we will take, we’ll adopt you as an honorary brother, but, uh, you have to have a little bit more documentation to, to get officially enrolled. It’s a stretch for an Italian American with just a North Carolina license plate and, uh, and driver’s license. All right. Um, you, uh, you talk about, um, you know, I guess, I mean, we’re, we’re, we’re skirting around these things to make it explicit that the, the power imbalance, you know, that um minorities are seeking it and uh mostly middle aged white guys are, are doling it out. Uh, you know, piece meal. Um, the, the, the, the imbalance, you know, the, the, the grant, even the, even the word, you know, the, the granting. Uh, it’s like some, uh, I don’t know, it’s like some Holy order has, uh, has bestowed upon you something that’s, uh a gift when, uh, your, your belief is that, uh, and your thesis in the book is that it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a right, equally held by all. Yeah. You know, I think power and money, a lot of, a lot of this does come down to power and ownership. Um We are talking in the nonprofit sec sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And um equity is very different from uh diversity and inclusion. Um To me, equity really is all about uh shifting power and we often think about that from um uh lens of equality. So we’re gonna have the same power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time, give up more power or take a back seat. That’s not gonna happen. You know, that that’s highly unlikely, like infinitesimally small, unlikely, you know, it’s, it’s a hard thing for people to uh to think about and especially if you have, if you’ve been privileged for so long, um equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, wow, II I have less than I’ve had. So um but you know, we, I I wanna think about this through an abundance mind frame. There’s enough, there’s enough resources and enough power to go around. Um We just have to uh work together to make sure that we are privileging those who have not been privileged by that power. I love that you, you approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you, Kate. I saw on Twitter or XX. Of course, that the average attention span is nine seconds and I thought that’s enough time for my mother to create guilt. I’m coming over for dinner. Can’t you stay for the night? I’m coming to stay for the night. Can’t you stay the weekend? I’m coming to stay for the weekend. Take me on a cruise. I’m taking you on a cruise. Can’t you move back home? I’m moving back home. Let’s get cemetery plots. That is Tony’s take two Kate. That sounds so much like nana like it was, it was, I didn’t know how to like react. That was so like nana just keeps pushing and pushing. Oh I miss her so much. Lots of people experience uh mother induced guilt. So I wanted a little tribute there. Yes, we’ve got Buku but loads more time. Let’s go back to decolonizing wealth with Edgar Villanueva. Welcome back. You didn’t go far. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. No, you haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. Um It hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened but uh it hasn’t happened. So let’s let’s start getting uh positive, you know, the, the second uh roughly the second half of your book is uh seven steps to healing. Um And uh I thought you came up like five short. I mean, we have another 12 steps. I mean, if you wanna, if you wanna share power, you’re gonna have to have, you gotta have to step it up with like 12 steps or, or even 15, you know, you have more than the colonizers. Uh, but, but the seven steps are in themselves, they’re, uh, they’re pretty radical. Yeah. You know, um, it, it’s funny because I, I did have some resistance to, um, having seven steps. Right, because it, it, it makes, it seem like there’s a, there’s a, a quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this and we can move on a prime number so that I don’t know. So, you know, but I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, uh you know, a process that we can begin, but there is no uh linear way uh or a quick way to uh to solve all of these problems or to, to undo what has been done. But uh there are ways to, to, to move forward and uh the steps to healing for me were, are, are list them out for us, just list all seven and then we’ll, we’ll talk about them. Sure. So they grieve, apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Um So you’ve been thinking about this for a while. I mean, this uh iiii I just did, I admire the, I, I admire the thinking that goes into this. Yeah. So some of it comes from my, my own personal experience um when and, and kind of come to terms and, and with uh the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to uh just re ground myself and my values. And um and kind of acknowledging the, the wisdom that was uh in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space. Um the other parts of it come from, I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and in philanthropy who were uh I think a very forward thinking people in this space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of, you know, what, what did, what have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this. Um And then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous uh restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice um in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a, a method that’s used in schools and um in the criminal justice system to um help uh people deal with uh with, with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is a model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with, with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation. Uh So uh grieving, uh you say e everybody, I mean, because of our inter relatedness where we all need to grieve, including uh the people of color, indigenous, you know, those who have been oppressed. Absolutely. We all need to grieve. Um We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, um you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But what the idea of subscribing to that the the the harm and the loss that has calls for people of color, but also white people. And uh you know, I think that’s uh we we it’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been caused in communities of color. It’s not so clear. We don’t talk about it very much the the loss that uh that colonization and uh the idea of white supremacy has actually caused in white communities. But it’s uh it, it is, there is a loss there. I talk about it in the book um of uh the idea that white people came from, from communities where they had uh cultures and uh tribal ways of interacting in many cases, um languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being American. And I think now we’re seeing um folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and they feel connected to that in some way. Um And um the uh the, the thing you talk about too is uh the orphans, orphans. You say that uh those of us who are descendants of, of the, of the settlers, you, you call us orphans. How’s that? I, I call them orphans. Uh This is a term my bar from some research that has been done uh on uh whiteness and it is, it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss. Um again, sort of giving up uh the, the culture um that maybe from, from, from the home country, from where, where folks settlers came from, giving up those, those ways of being interactive and community to subscribe to um this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that, um there’s been a loss of sort of that, that mother country um for lots of white folks and a loss of identity. Uh because although, you know, I’m, I’m not anti-american, let me be very clear about that. This is the greatest country in the world I’m very proud to, to be a citizen of this country. Um But there is something about um leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here. Um You know, and, and, and, and not um that, that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you, you, you have no connection to where your grandparents are from or the language they spoke or the culture that they have. Um And I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities. That is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color. Um And if we recognize that loss and that trauma that we have in common, uh it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You, you said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is, is not a real, not real. Why? Why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement. Uh But how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not real? Um Well, well, the idea that, that, uh you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this was an, an ideology that was created um in order to um be able to uh have the types of oppressive uh movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a, a mindset that has been, uh you know, an idea that is not real, but we have built systems and um societal norms around that, you know, growing up, I was taught that, um you know, or sort of the default for me was whiteness was, was better. And so if I were to behave or dress or act um in a certain way that appeared to be more white, then that was gonna be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea of white supremacy is, is, you know, the idea of it is not real, but there are very real implications and uh for how we have adopted that, that uh belief. Um And you’re, you also encourage uh nonprofits and teams to have a grieving space while we’re talking about, we’re talking about grief. Uh We just have about a minute before break, but, and then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what, what’s a grieving space in an, in an office? Yeah. So, you know, these, these steps are, are, are personal but it can be applied in an organizational setting. And so I think especially those of us working in the nonprofit where we’re supporting communities, we need to have um a space spaces in our, in our, our work life to be able to uh talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that and to feel emotion, to be human about it. And so, um you know, I share some research in the book and, and some anecdotes of um folks who have have done that and the research shows that there um it’s actually um leads to a much more productive workplace to have moments where we, we stop the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events that are happening, you know, in our communities. The, the, the book is uh decolonizing wealth, just, just, just get the book, you know, because we can only scratch the surface of it here in, in an hour. But uh decolonizing wealth.com, that’s where you go. I like the idea of the grieving space, you know, uh uh to acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds 100%. Uh Nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and, and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how, how, how oppressive is that very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we uh we’re sort of carrying around these, the, these secrets of like how this wealth was amassed or secrets that are within these families that um you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, be, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward, as you said, and, and that moves our next step in terms of uh uh your next step. Uh apologizing, recognizing which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money. I mean, you worked for the Reynolds Kate B is it Kate Kate B. Reynolds Foundation? I mean, Reynolds Tobacco, North Carolina, you know, that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um I’m not gonna ask you if the Kate B Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that. But that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the, in the step apologizing. Absolutely no, there was, there was no acknowledgment of that. And uh chapter one of, of the book is called My Arrival On the Plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the uh former estate or plantation of RJ Reynolds. And so um really literally and metaphorically, I was, I was working there, but no, there was there, there’s no acknowledgement of that. And I think you see that, you know, in, in North Carolina uh recently, the Chancellor of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that uh the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners. What most people of color want um is just to be seen and heard and, and for folks to make that recognition acknowledge and, and maybe move to apology per perhaps that didn’t Johns Hopkins University do do something similar that, that they had their founders were uh was it Johns Hopkins? Their founders were slave owners? I think Georgetown University, Georgetown. Sorry. Thank you. OK. Uh Georgetown, they were priest, right? They were priests, uh priest founders that were slave owners. That’s right. I actually know um AAA friend of mine who lives in New Orleans is a, a black woman who is a descendant um and was called to Georgetown uh to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment. They said in community together, talking about the history, talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And uh there’s a big write up in, in the paper. And uh you know, this has been very uh healing, I think for the university, but also for my friend Karen, um who is now having that uh you know, that recognition that her, the contributions of her ancestors, you, you, you talk a good bit about the reconciliation process uh in South Africa. Um Canada uh just you gotta get the book. I mean, we can’t, we can’t tell all these stories. I mean, I know listeners, I know, I know you love stories as much as I do, but there’s just not enough time to just get the damn book. Just go to decolonizing wealth.com for peace sake. You go right now. If you’re listening live, where are you Poughkeepsie Schenectady? Uh Nottingham Maryland just, just go to decolonizing wealth.com. Um OK, listening, you talk about uh em, em, empathic and generative listening, right? So, you know, often um when we, when we move through a process like this, we feel bad, we’ve apologized. Um The default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, OK, I’m done with that. I’m gonna move forward. And so, but before you move forward and act, you just need to pause to actually listen, um, to listen and learn so to, to, to uh uh for, for nonprofits. Uh, you know, I ran a nonprofit. I’ve worked in philanthropy for 14 years when I asked nonprofits, what is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently? The response is always, I just wish they would listen. Uh because there’s something about having resources, money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we um automatically feel that we can uh control the airspace and we have an agenda and uh the nonprofits are gonna be responsive to what we want. And you know, that often is the case. But uh the, the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is a difference in, in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and, and try as best you can to put yourself uh in, in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. So it’s just gonna make you a better person. Um I feel like listening is a human, right? We all want to be, we all deserve to be heard. And so that is um just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is to um to, to stop at times to, to also listen and to let others be heard. Put aside the White Savior Complex. Yeah. Uh Listening, we talk about, we talked about uh about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors and, and I know your next, your next step is, is relating versus being transactional. And that’s, that’s, that’s the beginning of a relationship, as you said, you know, listening, genuine hearing uh to w whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees. Um There, there’s a lot to be learned. So it goes back to the, the value of bringing uh representing the, the, the communities that you’re, that you’re serving. Um OK. So relation, you want us to, uh you want us to relate. Let me ask you, uh, you, you, you read, um how to win friends and influence people. You say dozens of times, you say dozens, I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh What, what, what, what do you take away time after reading, uh Dale Carnegie’s book dozens of times? Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um, I stole from the library of, uh my mom was a domestic worker and she was caring for a frail elderly man. Um, they had this vast library. So I ended up with this little book that you stole from an infirm. I know, I feel terrible about a book. It haunts me to this day. So this is a public, I didn’t even think to leave like 20 bucks or something on the table. I didn’t have it if I had it at the time. Um So hopefully this is my way of giving back. This is, this is my reparations for, for that, that wrong. But you know, and the one take away for me in that book uh is uh is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um is when you’re, when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um And if you actually just listen more than talk, people are gonna think that you’re a great friend like, wow, Edgar, that was that I had such a nice time with you. Um But even if I didn’t say one wrong, right? And so, yeah, it’s really about listening and, and letting others feel that they are important because they are um you know, we, I think people just feel so invisible these days that um just by giving people that moment of, of feeling heard and connecting with something that they are interested in. Um It’s just gonna really take you much further in building a relationship and, and stop the, the transactional, the, the transactional thinking. Um You have, you, you have an example of uh uh a uh oh and, and like building design, like office design, kitchens, you’d love to see a kitchen in the center of, of offices. Yeah. You know, so sort of like these ideas of like the colonizing virus, it infects every aspect of our community. So yes, even the way buildings are designed, um, especially buildings that are uh financial institutions, think about what banks look like when you walk in and with the, with all the marble and, you know, hard edges. Absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right. And so we just, uh, through even how we design our offices and um you know, the way that they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources just in, in terms of designing organizations more egalitarian, you’d like to see. Absolutely. So, uh one of the steps in the book is represent, and when you look at the uh the demographics of the nonprofit sector and um especially in, in foundations that part of the sector, uh we still have a long ways to go with diversity uh particularly when you look at the board of directors and the CEO positions, folks who really hold power in organizations. So what are the, what are the ideas that I put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their board should reflect the communities they serve. Uh This would drastically change what uh you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like, but this isn’t this uh far from what is required of, of many nonprofits. Funders actually are, you know, requiring this, of their nonprofits that they’re funding. Um, and many go, um, organizations that receive, gover government funding, federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be, um, folks who are benefiting from the services of those nonprofits. Representative. Absolutely. That’s a, that’s a stretch. 51 percent. It’s a stretch, it’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the, the conversation has uh, has been uh zero about it. So I figure, you know, if we put something, a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road and there are some examples. Uh you cite the Novo Foundation in the book, uh they have a women’s building that they’re, that they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something to turn into women’s building and, and the, the decisions are being made by, by women who are gonna be using the building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of, of foundations and, and funds that are, um really, um putting these values into practice in their work. Uh Novo is, is a foundation that I really appreciate. Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of, of the, the Novo Foundation wrote the forward to my. And uh they, um are folks that you, if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um and it shows up in how they give, they are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens um to folks who are impacted by, especially women and girls, which is an issue they, they really care about and they fund in a way that is responses to what they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be. Is it novo that funds for five years or seven years? Is it guaranteed? You, you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment. Right. Right. And, and that type of long term commitment is uh you know, something that, that is the best type of funding, you know, um folks can be, you can focus on building a relationship versus, oh, I’ve got to meet these certain objectives so I can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna pay these salaries next year? Um Really allows folks to have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing in communities and, and planning and, and can plan instead of it being one, only one or two years. Um And so we kind of mishmash together, you know, relating and representing um investing. So investing is really a call to philanthropy to think about using all of its resources for um for, for the public good, right? And so uh we are not uh going to be a, a AAA sector that achieves equity that, that is really moving the needle on issues if we’re supporting uh with the 5% in our right hand, really good work, uh you know, mission related work. But in our left hand, we are investing 95% of our resources in um industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really canceling out the positive of, of our resources. So, you know, there are great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation, for example, who just recently declared that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus is going to be used um in support of their mission. And again, other examples in in the book. And uh we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up actually. Um so talk about your final step, which is the final step is repair. Um All of us who are philanthropists are givers and as we’re getting close to the end of this year, uh we are all philanthropists um supporting um nonprofits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine, how can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done um by colonization in, in, in this country. And so think about looking at your personal portfolio are you giving to at least one organization of color um to support grassroots leadership. So reach across um and support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us uh versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been uh you know, along this lines of thinking or exercising these types of values. OK. So I’ll give you the last 30 seconds uh uh uh in the way that uh the, the way I learned that uh natives are the original philanthropists was by what you, what you talk about your mom. Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving, when we look at giving in this country, the biggest philanthropist philanthropist are folks who are giving the most uh highest percentage of their incomes, incomes are actually poor people. And so I do talk about my mom in the book um who um was uh you know, is actually um very low income and, but yet she gave um to our community and, and had it ran a ministry out of our church to support Children ministry. You just gotta, you gotta get the book, you gotta read the ministry. And so it’s like giving of time, treasure and talent, not just resources. And so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are um you know, through love is uh we’re all philanthropists, get the book, go to decolonizing wealth.com, Edgar Villanueva. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on Tony. Real pleasure. Next week, zombie loyalists with Peter Shankman from the archive. If you missed any part of this weeks show, I beseech you find it at Tony Martignetti dot com were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for August 30, 2021: Decolonizing Wealth

My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

 

 

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[00:02:21.14] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with hyper guard Dallas the asia Footnote one If you tickled me with the idea that you missed this week’s show de colonizing wealth. Edgar Villanueva’s book de colonizing wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy, This originally aired 30 November 2018 Antonis take two gratitude all day. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform, empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Let us begin here is de colonizing wealth. It’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio Edgar Villanueva, He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andrews Family Fund, Working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at Grand Valley State University and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s held leadership roles at Kate b Reynolds charitable trust in north Carolina and marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle, Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and at Villanueva Edgar, you’re welcome to studio.

[00:02:22.29] spk_0:
Thank you. tony Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:23.87] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october

[00:02:28.33] spk_0:
october 16th.

[00:02:29.31] spk_1:
Yes. Alright. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times?

[00:02:33.16] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:02:34.14] spk_1:
congratulations on that. They perhaps perhaps perhaps you for nonprofit radio

[00:02:37.66] spk_0:
Right, right. I’m ready. All

[00:03:25.24] spk_1:
your, all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So it’s all culminated here. Um, I promised listeners, footnote one, footnote 12. hyper guard Alice these asia. Uh, of course, anybody listens to the show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease. Every single show. Uh but in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper guard anesthesia. So this is the first time Over 400 shows that the, that the guest unknowingly has uh, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do that every single show. Um you didn’t know that you’re not listening to nonprofit radio It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re, you’re a bit of a troublemaker

[00:03:30.54] spk_0:
a little bit.

[00:03:33.34] spk_1:
Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. Uh,

[00:03:33.76] spk_0:
someone told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way, but

[00:04:04.94] spk_1:
that’s not also bad. Get a little closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate with it almost. Um, I used to call myself the charlie Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. Uh, can’t use that any longer. Um, because you talk about uh, colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like these are bad things.

[00:04:06.84] spk_0:
Yes, they are bad thing. What

[00:04:09.48] spk_1:
uh, what is the, what’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:46.74] spk_0:
so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the non profit sector, um, you know, have this firewall that we are completely disconnected from, um, Wall Street or from capitalism or, or some of those uh, processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from uh, corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, um, sometimes, uh, not in the best ways, not in the

[00:04:50.24] spk_1:
backs of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:10.14] spk_0:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country is steeped in trauma. Right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth, but you know, when we look back and we see in general how wealth was accumulated. Um, you know, especially I’m from the south north Carolina, we’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was the legacy of slavery and stolen lands that, that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:23.04] spk_1:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans.

[00:06:09.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, we as a, people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities. Um, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in north Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact, but colonization and the, the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparents generation kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still, we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are a resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we are trying to solve today as a society, have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:22.24] spk_1:
You say that the natives are

[00:06:23.73] spk_0:
the original philanthropists.

[00:06:44.94] spk_1:
Um, now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe of north Carolina. Uh, Robinson county north Carolina, which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west I think of, of Robinson County lumber. So the lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the lum bees and Lumberton. The town

[00:06:49.90] spk_0:
named for lambis. Right? So love bees were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first and so certainly the river came from

[00:07:00.26] spk_1:
the name of the river

[00:07:10.04] spk_0:
came from rivers been there much longer than, Yeah. So we are, you know, a hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north Carolina. Um, that I came together to form the lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:40.94] spk_1:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to uh, native americans as the, as the original philanthropists. But uh, that, that struck me a lot. I think you, you say, you say that the end of the, at the end of the book is where I, where I caught it. Um, uh, we just have like a minute and a half or so before the break. So just we’re introducing this, we’ve got plenty of time together, wealth. You say divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:08:01.84] spk_0:
So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral wealth in itself, I say is, is neutral, but it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed. Um, the acts that can result as a, as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what that’s what has caused the harm in itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has caused trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven,

[00:09:10.04] spk_1:
6, 6 steps to that second half of your book. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They’ll help you find your voice and get that voice heard in the right places. Places like the Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the Chronicle of philanthropy, fast Company Market Watch and lots of others you’ve heard me name. They’ll help you find your voice and get it out. Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to de colonizing wealth. *** tony-martignetti Uh, that is your indian name. Did I by any chance say that correctly.

[00:09:13.13] spk_0:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shabby with my Ojibwe these days. You

[00:09:17.72] spk_1:
don’t know your, you know,

[00:09:18.75] spk_0:
you know that sounds, but

[00:09:25.84] spk_1:
that is your indian name. Uh, leading bird, uh, tell the story of how you got that name. Well, welcome back to don’t welcome back to the exploitation and control, don’t we? Yeah, this is a good story, how you got that name.

[00:11:55.54] spk_0:
So my tribe, the lumbee tribe in north Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are, whatever your mom calls you, that’s your name. Right. Right. So, um, but when I, when I was working in north Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there is a medicine man and some, when the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to, to talk or have a session and growing up in north Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh north Carolina. And so, but I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and to um see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me if you’re, if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um, and so I met with this guy in the Marriott hotel in denver colorado or this, this native health conference. So it was all uh, tell the story in the book is quite um hilarious and in many ways, but at the end of our session where I was feeling um excited about, you know, the conversation we had but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I’ve, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. Um he did offer me a native name, Naghani pinochet, which means leading bird. Um, so I was very honored and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right am I a little tweety bird or am I mighty eagle birds are best? So um he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V. Formation. Um, and as I when I left I studied these birds and and they’re the leading bird. I’m the leading birds leading bird. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V. Formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understand its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V. Formation, it’s really like an amazing natural national phenomenon, how how they communicate and fly together. Uh the other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird forward. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And um when I, when I learned these characteristics, um I just felt really, um I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life and I think it’s the type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:32.04] spk_1:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered, uh, they’re, they’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, and you know, be injured. But that’s how they, and I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close but not so close. They’re gonna be injured, right?

[00:13:00.84] spk_0:
It’s very, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, gPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds, um, is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more. But I think when they’re when someone is down or you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen. Uh, they, there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and are interrelated, you know, being interrelated and

[00:13:21.14] spk_1:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is a, this is an indigenous belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of. The birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are, each of one of us related to the, to all the other.

[00:14:34.54] spk_0:
Yeah. So there there is a native belief um all my relations that means um you’re, all of our suffering is mutual, all of our thriving is mutual and uh you know we are, we are interdependent and so it’s a very different mindset or worldview from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset. Um we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives um and we are related to the land and to the animals around us, but all of the things, all of the decisions and um that we are making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor and so what our responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our um our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and and to think about how to apply them in my work

[00:14:54.74] spk_1:
and you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility for as you said, were thriving and suffering together. Um what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:14:55.96] spk_0:
Yeah, so you know, I think are we all responsible?

[00:14:58.94] spk_1:
We’re all

[00:15:11.24] spk_0:
responsible because we’re all affected. Um, I think some folks, when we, you know, we learn about colonization in schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We um, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes like the natural path of progress. Absolutely

[00:15:17.37] spk_1:
way it’s learned,

[00:16:11.34] spk_0:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher columbus for example. And so but the realities are that colonization um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And uh, that type of history that we have in this country is something that we um, as as the people have not come to terms with, we actually we don’t tell the truth, we don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. Um, and so the dynamics of colonization which are uh, to divide to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. Um, you know, I I refer to them as the colonizing virus, because they they are still in our bodies as as a nation. They show up in our policies, our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions in the nonprofit sector, and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power.

[00:16:20.24] spk_1:
Uh, these

[00:17:25.54] spk_0:
naturally to your point about us, them organizations go ahead. So, you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, um, you know, the dynamics of colonization because when you look at um uh where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. When you look at ask the question of why this money was held back from public coffers, um that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting the safety net and vulnerable communities. Um And when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend it, you see a very um white dominant kind of mindset happening because for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit um foundation set on $800 billion of assets. That’s a lot of money that has been uh you know, sheltered from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, um things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities, but that money has been put there with little to no accountability. Um Private foundations are only required by the I. R. S. To uh pay out 5% of their assets. And so then, you know, you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public good. Only a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community. Let’s assume

[00:18:11.04] spk_1:
it’s uh I know there are a lot of Foundations that use that five minimum as their maximum. So that’s so 5% of that would be $40 billion. Uh So the counter is, but there’s $40 billion coming Each year. Could be more, but let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And you know, we’re trying to preserve this uh this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if, you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were trying to, you know, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say,

[00:19:26.24] spk_0:
right, right. And you know, I think I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5%, when Congress had acted that 5% role, Um it actually began at 6%, I believe in 1974. And then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having A tax break. And so that that uh IRS minimum payout of 5%. That rule was put in place to force um foundations to actually begin making grants. And so, you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with a 95%, that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good in communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too, generate more money for future grantmaking And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and extract extractive industries, um, that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point

[00:20:20.74] spk_1:
often uh, that often right, Those investments are in our industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through its, through its mission. And, and in fact funding um, the uh, something else that was going to ask about the, the way the money is. Um, All right, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s there’s a lot that organizations can gain by hiring people of color indigenous people. What uh, and and very few. You’re, you’re a rare exception. Um, working in, in found doing foundation work. Uh, what’s the, make explicit those uh, those advantages?

[00:20:49.64] spk_0:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely um an exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 native Americans that I could find, we kind of found each other. What year was that? Uh, this was in 2005 And we are now, there’s about 25 of us now, the last time I counted. Um, so yeah, there’s, there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations and I think more and more foundations are understanding to bring folks in uh, 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:12.64] spk_1:
and not only foundations but nonprofits and Ngos doing the groundwork. Absolutely foundations of the funders. And of course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but, but for the nonprofits doing the day to day work

[00:21:15.21] spk_0:
as well

[00:21:16.01] spk_1:
represent the communities that you’re

[00:22:06.94] spk_0:
absolutely, it kind of makes sense, right? And uh, you know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff and their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re, you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit or foundation to, to have folks uh, that that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness and um, you know about the problem in a different way. It’s going to create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies. That that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes and board meetings where decisions were being made and I always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room and I hear these decisions are these conversations and I’m thinking like, oh my God, like you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother or my family that still living in poverty. Decision makers disconnected, there’s such a disconnect.

[00:23:12.94] spk_1:
Yeah, um and I I thought of what I was going to ask you about or just comment on the Foundation wise, we do see some Foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Uh I wouldn’t say it’s a needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time, that there’s a foundation that’s committed now to spending its its assets down, you know, uh was paul Allen, was that uh not paul Allen the Microsoft? I think the Microsoft founder, co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was paul Allen Okay, okay. Uh I was thinking of steve Allen comedy all comic, that’s why I thought, no, it wasn’t him, but it was paul Allen, I think his foundation is one, but there are some, so we do hear some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times people we need to move the needle.

[00:24:15.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think deciding to spin down is a very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now um if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um there there’s a lot of amazing work happening um right now that is so under resource that if we could um support and get behind investing money in these various movements and these uh in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh the 5% that is being invested, only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. That would make a big difference. And so I think um you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards of Foundation should think about, what is the value of, you know, why why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of uh you know, uh way of thinking,

[00:24:33.24] spk_1:
if this was CNN right now, I would I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times, uh we have to work on that at talking alternative, we need we need video capture and screens and everything. Uh in your video, in your interview with David Bernstein new York times, uh you said by not investing more in communities of color philanthropy? Venture capital, impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:25:52.34] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when, when policies fail or systems fail, um, we hurt the hardest and uh, but there’s just something so magical about and sense of pride that I have about my community because we are so resilient regardless of um, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the um, you know, genocide stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. Um, and so there’s, there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would, if I weren’t native, I would be interested to know like what, when you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Um, indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, um, you know, really fighting for environmental protections. Um, there, there’s so much wisdom and you know, often foundations roll out new theories of changes are changes are see strategies or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and I’m like, wow, we’ve been doing that in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:00.64] spk_1:
Is there still a lumbee community in Robinson robeson county?

[00:26:04.27] spk_0:
Yes, there are, there are about 60,000 enrolled members in the lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County

[00:26:12.59] spk_1:
now have a north Carolina driver’s license. Will that, will that get me in? Can I be a member?

[00:26:17.86] spk_0:
You know, we were very inclusive. We, we, we’ll take, we’ll adopt you as an honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation to get officially enrolled. So it’s, it’s a stretch for an italian american with north Carolina license

[00:27:18.24] spk_1:
player and, uh, driver’s license. All right. Um, you, you talk about, you know, I guess, I mean, we’re skirting around these things, Make it explicit the power imbalance, you know, that, um, minorities are seeking it. And uh, mostly middle aged white guys are, are doling it out. Uh, you know, piecemeal, um, the, the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the, even the word, you know, the granting, it’s like some, uh, I don’t know, it’s like some holy orders has, has bestowed upon you something that’s a gift when, uh, your, your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s, it’s a, it’s a right equally held by all,

[00:27:46.44] spk_0:
yeah. You know, I think power and money, A lot of, a lot of this does come down to power and ownership. Um, we are talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. Um, to me, equity really is all about shifting power. And we often think about that from the lens of equality. So we’re going to have the same power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power to take a

[00:27:54.36] spk_1:
back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know, that’s, that’s highly unlikely. Like infant is really small, unlikely.

[00:28:27.24] spk_0:
You know, it’s, it’s a hard thing for people to, uh, to think about. And especially if you have, if you’ve been privileged for so long, um, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I, I, I have less than I’ve had. So, um, but you know, we, I want to think about this through an abundance of my frame. There’s enough, there’s enough resources, enough power to go around. Um, we just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging those who have not been privileged by that problem.

[00:32:43.94] spk_1:
So I love that you, you approach it from a position of abundance and not, not scarcity. It’s time for Tony’s take to gratitude all day. This is coming up just next week. So this is something for folks that are listening to the show very quickly after it’s published. No, wait, what am I saying next week? Yeah, it’s this week. It’s this week september 1st and second. It’s gratitude all day, september 1st and second Wednesday and thursday, it’s online, It’s a live stream, you join and share with the world your gratitude. What are you grateful for health, your family, friends, good drinks, prosperity, uh safety. Uh you know, I’m thinking things that well, I don’t want to share my gratitude, I’m doing that, you’ll, you’ll hear what I’m doing mine, I can’t give you mine now, I can’t do that now. So I’m trying to think of what your gratitude might be. Uh wonderful vacation blossoming flowers over the summer. Uh you got approved for your life insurance policy, you bought your new home, you sold your old home, your kids are starting college, your kids are leaving college, whatever you’re grateful for you get the idea, you join the live stream on Wednesday and thursday the 1st and 2nd and you share it with the world whatever you’re grateful for now, The best time to do this is 7-9 eastern on Wednesday september 1st because that’s the part that I’ll be hosting. See, there are different hosts throughout hosts throughout the 24 hours and I’m the hostess for 7 to 9 p.m. Eastern Wednesday night. The whole thing runs from one p.m. On Wednesday to one pm Thursday. So the best time to share your slot, share your gratitude is my slot because that’s you know, you don’t want to take a chance with with a lackluster host when you can have a lackluster host of your segment. So 79 p. M. That’s, that’s the best time to share your gratitude, although you certainly can do it anytime during the 24 hours. And where do you get all the info for gratitude all day. It’s very simple. You go to gratitude rising dot org Now if you can’t join us because you didn’t listen to the podcast the day or the day after it was published, then just do your own gratitude. You don’t have to share it with the world. Do you? Do you do daily gratitude? You know what that is in the morning when you wake up, you you just, you’re beyond the twilight zone, but you haven’t gotten out of bed yet. A couple of minutes devoted to daily gratitude. Now I don’t do it daily, but I do it often verbalizing, saying them out loud, verbalizing the things that you are grateful for, think through and go into depth about the things I’m grateful for just talking to myself, but saying them out loud. So if you can’t join us for gratitude all day, do your own day gratitude and hopefully daily gratitude that way. But I love the idea of just gratitude, giving thanks and sharing it if you can. But even even saying it out loud is, you know, sharing it with yourself. It makes a difference saying it out loud versus just thinking about it. It does, That’s gratitude and that is Tony’s take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Now I want to go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar. Villanueva. See, I thought he would pronounce his name. Edgar And I was wrong. And but that’s that’s why I said Edgar. But it’s Edgar. Edgar. A gravel in river. And de colonizing wealth. Welcome back. You didn’t go far.

[00:32:45.10] spk_0:
Thanks for having me. Okay. I’ll still be here. Yes, absolutely.

[00:33:06.44] spk_1:
You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. Um It hasn’t happened, I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s, let’s start getting uh positive. You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, And uh, I thought you came up like five short. I mean, we have another 12 steps. I mean, if you want to, if you want to share power, you’re gonna have to have, you got to step it up with like 12 steps or, or even 15, you know, you have more than the colonizers. Uh, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re they’re pretty radical.

[00:33:33.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s a there’s a quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this and we can move on

[00:33:38.37] spk_1:
prime number. So that

[00:33:56.14] spk_0:
I think that’s that’s unique. I don’t know why, but yeah, so, you know, but I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, uh, you know, a process that we can begin. but there is no linear way or a quick way to um, to solve, all these problems or to, to undo what has been done. But there are ways to, to, to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:34:07.42] spk_1:
listening out for us, just list all seven and then we’ll

[00:34:17.64] spk_0:
talk about, I’m sure. So they’re grieve, apologize, listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay.

[00:34:22.54] spk_1:
Um, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while. I mean this, uh, I just did, I admire though. I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:35:30.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience, um, when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to just re ground myself and my values and um, and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space. Um, the other parts of it come from, I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and philanthropy who were, I think of very forward thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of, you know, what, what, what have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this. Um, and then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice um, in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used in schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is a model that has come from indigenous communities where we um sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:35:58.84] spk_1:
So, uh, grieving, uh, you say everybody, I mean because of our inter relatedness where we all need to grieve, including the people of color and indigenous, you know, those who have been oppressed.

[00:37:06.43] spk_0:
Absolutely, we all need to grieve. Um, we need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, um, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm and the loss that has calls for people of color, but also white people. And uh, you know, I think that’s uh, we it’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been caused a community of color. It’s not so clear. We don’t talk about it very much the loss that uh, the colonization and uh, the idea of white supremacy has actually caused in white communities. But it’s uh, it is, there is a loss there. I talk about it in the book um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and uh tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases um languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being american. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and they feel connected to that in some way.

[00:37:34.63] spk_1:
Um, and um the the thing you talk about too is uh the orphans orphans, you say that those of us who are descendants of, of the, of the settlers you call us orphans, how’s that

[00:38:54.42] spk_0:
I call them orphans. This is a term apart from some research that has been done on whiteness and it is, it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss. Again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from, from the home country, from where where folks, settlers came from giving up those, those ways of being interacting in community to subscribe to this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country um for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know, I’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that, this is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud to be a citizen of this country. Um, but there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here. Um you know, and and not um that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparents or from or the language they spoke with, the culture they have. Um and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities. That is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color. Um, and if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, um it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race.

[00:38:58.32] spk_1:
You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a real not real. Why? Why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, uh, how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not real?

[00:39:41.42] spk_0:
Um Well, well, the idea that that uh, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing. Right? So this wasn’t an ideology that was created um in order to be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been uh you know, an idea that is not real, but we have built systems and um societal norms around that. You know, growing up I was taught that you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness, was was better. And so if I were to behave or dress or act in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea of white supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not real, but there are very real implications and for how we have adopted that, that belief. All right.

[00:40:11.71] spk_1:
Um and you’re you also encourage uh nonprofits and teams to have a grieving space while we’re talking about, we’re talking about grieve, we just have about a minute before a break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps, but what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:40:54.31] spk_0:
Yeah. So you know, these these steps are our personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think especially those of us working in the nonprofit where we’re supporting communities, we need to have space spaces in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that and to feel emotion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that, and the research shows that there um it’s actually um leads to a much more productive workplace to have moments where we we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening, you know, in our communities.

[00:41:33.91] spk_1:
The book is de colonizing wealth, just, just, just get the book, you know, because we can only scratch the surface of it here in an hour. But uh, de colonizing wealth dot com, that’s where you go. I like the idea of the grieving space, you know, uh acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something, you know, it’s how how how oppressive is that

[00:41:52.91] spk_0:
very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around these these secrets of like how this wealth was amassed or secrets that are within these families that um, you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward as you said,

[00:42:32.10] spk_1:
and and that was the next step in terms of uh, your next step apologizing recognizing which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money. I mean, you worked for the Reynolds KB is KB. Reynolds Foundation Reynolds tobacco north Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not going to ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the, in the step apologizing.

[00:42:35.56] spk_0:
Absolutely no, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And uh, chapter one of the book is called my arrival in the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former estate or plantation of R. J. Reynolds. And so, uh, really literally and metaphorically I was, I was working there. But no, there was, there was, there was no acknowledgement of that. And I think you see that, you know, in, in north Carolina, recently, the chancellor of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and building that university and that some of the buildings there named after a former slave owners, what most people of color want. Um, it’s just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition

[00:43:31.70] spk_1:
acknowledge and maybe move to apology. Perhaps that didn’t johns Hopkins University do something similar that, that they had, their founders were uh, johns Hopkins, their founders were slave owners.

[00:43:34.49] spk_0:
I think Georgetown University

[00:43:38.10] spk_1:
Georgetown. Sorry, thank you. Okay. Georgetown, there were pre right. There were priests, uh, priest founders that were slave

[00:44:16.49] spk_0:
owners. That’s right, actually, no. Um a friend of mine who lives in New Orleans as a black woman who is a descendant um and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment. They set in community together, talking about the history talk acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big right up in in the paper and you know, this has been a very uh healing I think for the university, but also from for my friend Karen, um who is now having that, you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors, you talk a

[00:44:51.49] spk_1:
good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um Canada, uh you gotta get the book. I mean, we can’t we can’t tell all these stories. I mean, I know listeners, I know I know you love stories as much as I do, but there’s just not enough time to just get the damn book. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, for Pete’s sake. You go right now, if you’re listening live, where are you poughkeepsie? It’s connected. He uh Nottingham Maryland just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Um okay, listening, you talk about and empathic and generative listening.

[00:46:20.28] spk_0:
Right? So, you know, often um, when we, when we moved through a process like this, we feel bad, we’ve apologized. Um uh, the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so, but before you move for an act, you just need to pause to actually listen, Uh, to listen and learn. So to, uh, for, for non profits. You know, I ran a nonprofit, I’ve worked in philanthropy for 14 years. When I asked nonprofits what is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently? The response is always, I just wish they would listen. Uh, because there’s something about having resources, money, privilege and power when we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the airspace and we have an agenda and the non profits are going to be responsive to what we want. And you know, that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is a difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and, and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just, it’s just going to make you a better person, uh, feel like listening as a human, right? We all want to be, We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is to, um, to, to stop at times to also listen and to let others be hard put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Uh,

[00:46:51.38] spk_1:
listening. We talked about, we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors. And I know you’re next, you’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s, that’s, that’s the beginning of a relationship. As you said. You know, listening, genuine hearing, uh, two whether its donor’s or potential potential grantees. Um, there, there’s a lot to be learned.

[00:46:53.59] spk_0:
It goes back to the

[00:47:08.98] spk_1:
value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re, that you’re serving. Uh, okay. So relation you want us to, uh, you want to relate, let me ask you, you, you, you read, um, how to win friends and influence people. You say dozens of times. You said it doesn’t, I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Uh, the L Carnegie’s book dozens of times.

[00:47:37.08] spk_0:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um, I stole from the library of uh, my mom was a domestic worker and she was caring for frail elderly man. Um, they had this vast library. So I end up with this little book that you stole from an infirm elderly elderly man. I feel terrible about a book. It haunts me to this day. So this is a public, you

[00:47:46.10] spk_1:
didn’t even think to leave like $20 or something

[00:48:26.47] spk_0:
on the table and have it if I had it at that. All right. Um So hopefully this is my my way of giving back, this is my reparations for for that that wrong. But you know, and the one take away from me in that book uh is uh is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um And if you actually just listen more than talk, people are gonna think that you’re a great friend like well Edgar that was such a nice time with you. But even if I didn’t say much and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they are important because they are um you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they are interested in. Um It’s just gonna really take you much further in building a relationship

[00:48:54.57] spk_1:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking. Um You have you you have an example of uh um a like building design, like office design. Kitchens, you’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices.

[00:49:31.07] spk_0:
Yeah. You know so sort of like these ideas of like the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So yes, even the way buildings are designed especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and you know, hard edges, absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:50:45.06] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build and to end digital campaigns, They look professional, they’re affordable, they keep your campaigns organized. It’s all about digital campaign marketing. Most software. You know, it designed for big companies with big, big enterprise level price tag, sending blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s easy to use and walks you through the steps of building a digital campaign. You want to try out sending blue and get the free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony dot M A slash send in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for de colonizing wealth. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth. Again, just go to de colonizing wealth dot com, get the thing, get the book just in terms of designing organizations, uh more egalitarian you’d like to see.

[00:51:35.86] spk_0:
Absolutely. So uh, one of the steps of the book is represent and what you look at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part of the sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power in organizations. So what are the, what are the ideas that I put forth in the book? Is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. Um, this would drastically change what, you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this, uh, far from what is required of, of many nonprofits. Funders actually are, you know, requiring this, of their nonprofit, that their funding, um, and many government organizations that receive government funding, federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of those nonprofits.

[00:51:49.40] spk_1:
Again, representative? Absolutes, yeah, that’s a, that’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:51:57.36] spk_0:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has, has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:52:17.45] spk_1:
And there are some examples you cite the novo Foundation in the book. Uh, they have a women’s building that they’re, they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something to turn into this building and, and the decisions being made by, by women who are going to be using the

[00:52:45.25] spk_0:
building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are um, really, um, putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is, is a foundation that I really appreciate. Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of the Novo Foundation, wrote the forward to my book. And they are folks that you, if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give, they are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens um, to folks who are impacted by, especially women and girls, which is an issue they really care about and they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundations agenda might be.

[00:53:06.85] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? It’s guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment.

[00:53:39.05] spk_0:
Right, Right. And, and that type of long term commitment is, uh, you know, something that, that is the best type of funding, you know, folks can be, you can focus on building relationship versus so I’ve got to meet these certain objectives, so I can keep getting this money year after year and so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna, you know, how am I going to pay the salaries next year? Um really allows folks to have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing in communities

[00:53:44.55] spk_1:
and and planning and and can plans that are being

[00:53:47.42] spk_0:
one only 1 or two

[00:53:56.25] spk_1:
years. Um so we kind of mishmash together, you know, relating and representing um investing.

[00:54:44.74] spk_0:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy to think about using all of its resources for um for for the public good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle issues If we’re supporting with the 5% in our right hand, Really good work, you know, mission-related work. But in our left hand we are investing 95% of our resources in um industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really canceling out the positive of of our resources. So, you know, there are great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation for example, who just recently declare that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus is going to be used in support of their mission.

[00:54:47.29] spk_1:
Uh Again, other examples in the book and uh we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up actually. Um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:55:28.04] spk_0:
the final step is repair. Um, all of us who are philanthropists are givers and as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we are all philanthropists. I’m supporting, um, nonprofits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine, how can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization in, in, in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color um, to support grassroots leadership? So reach across, um, and support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, uh, you know, along the lines of thinking or exercising these types of values.

[00:55:50.94] spk_1:
Okay, so I’ll give you the last 30 seconds, uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by what you, what you talk about your mom.

[00:56:13.63] spk_0:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving, when we look at giving in this country, the biggest philanthropist, philanthropist or folks who are giving the most highest percentage of their income incomes are actually poor people. And so I do talk about my mom in the book, um, who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income and but yet she gave to our community and and how to run a ministry of our church to support Children,

[00:56:18.38] spk_1:
the bus ministry,

[00:56:19.36] spk_0:
the bus ministry.

[00:56:20.24] spk_1:
Just gotta, you gotta get the book,

[00:56:21.23] spk_0:
you got to read the bus ministry and so it’s giving of time treasure and talent, not just resources and so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are um you know through love is uh we’re all philanthropists

[00:56:33.73] spk_1:
get the book, go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva, thank you so much.

[00:56:37.97] spk_0:
Thank you for having me on tony real pleasure

[00:57:40.83] spk_1:
next week converting followers to donors with Adora drake, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue, our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great. Mhm Yeah

Nonprofit Radio for September 8, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth

Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

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Nonprofit Radio for January 10, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)

 

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Happy New Year. I

[00:01:14.54] spk_2:
hope you enjoyed enormous amounts of time and good fun with family and friends. Lots of time off during the holidays. I hope you enjoyed the hell out of them. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize. A phobia if you missed our first show in the innovators Siris de colonizing wealth You can’t always kick off a series with a live guest. Edgard Villanueva’s book De Colonizing Wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy that originally aired November 30th 2018 on Tony’s Take two planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is our first guest in The Innovators, Siri’s Edgar Villanueva.

[00:01:46.97] spk_1:
That’s my great

[00:01:47.77] spk_3:
pleasure to welcome to the studio. Edgar Villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of Native Americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andress Family Fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable

[00:02:04.64] spk_1:
youth. He’s an instructor

[00:02:15.34] spk_3:
with the grantmaking School at Grand Valley State University and served as vice president of programs and advocacy at the Shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s

[00:02:15.51] spk_1:
held leadership roles at Kate Be. Reynolds Charitable Trust in North Carolina and Marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle.

[00:02:26.38] spk_3:
Edgar is an enrolled member of the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and

[00:02:33.05] spk_1:
at Villanueva Edgar and welcome to Studio.

[00:02:34.17] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:35.68] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month. Was October October 16th. Yes, all right.

[00:02:42.22] spk_3:
And you just had a very nice interview with The New York Times. Yes. Congratulations. On that day, that’s prep, prep, prep you for non profit radio,

[00:02:49.46] spk_4:
right? Right. I’m ready.

[00:02:50.80] spk_1:
All your all your media appearances

[00:02:52.77] spk_3:
to date have brought you to this moment, right? So that it’s all culminated here.

[00:02:57.61] spk_5:
Um,

[00:02:58.74] spk_1:
I promised listeners. Footnote one

[00:03:31.05] spk_3:
Footnote 12 Aah! Hyper Garg, Alice, the Asia. Of course, anybody listens to show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease, every single show. But in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle issue Asia. So this is the first time over 400 shows that thea that the guest unknowingly has ah, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do. That every single show. Um, you don’t know that

[00:03:32.16] spk_4:
I didn’t.

[00:03:32.55] spk_3:
Not listening to non profit radio. It’s It’s

[00:03:45.58] spk_1:
your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re You’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. No

[00:03:45.68] spk_4:
one told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way,

[00:03:52.61] spk_1:
but that’s not

[00:04:00.05] spk_3:
all so bad. Getting closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate. with it. Um, I

[00:04:00.14] spk_1:
used to call myself the Charlie

[00:04:06.38] spk_3:
Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer. Um,

[00:04:08.83] spk_1:
because you talk about, ah,

[00:04:16.90] spk_3:
colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like, those are bad things.

[00:04:18.64] spk_4:
Yes, they are. Bad thing.

[00:04:20.19] spk_3:
Okay. What? Ah, what is that? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:26.84] spk_1:
so many of

[00:04:41.75] spk_4:
us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? Um, you know, I have this firewall that were completely disconnected from Wall Street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for that, the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways, not in

[00:05:01.97] spk_3:
the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:05.18] spk_4:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated? Um, you know, especially I’m from the South, North Carolina. We’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was a legacy of slavery and stolen lands that that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:34.94] spk_3:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native Americans.

[00:05:40.29] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:05:47.79] spk_4:
So, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in North Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparent’s generation, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still what We’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are arias, resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to soft today. As a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:34.10] spk_3:
You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Um, now you’re a member of the Lumbee tribe. North Carolina. That’s right. Robertson County, North Carolina. Which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west, I think of of Robertson County lumber. So the Lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the love bees and lumber turn the town. That’s right. Name for Lum bees,

[00:07:06.91] spk_4:
Right. So lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first, and so

[00:07:12.25] spk_1:
certainly the river came from. The name of the river came, right, Right. River’s been

[00:07:22.29] spk_4:
there much longer. Okay? Yes. So we’re, you know, hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal North Carolina that I came together to form the Lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:42.04] spk_3:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to ah, Native Americans as the as the original philanthropist, but that struck me a lot. I think. You You say you say that the end of the at the end of books, right where I caught it. Um, we have, like, a minute 1/2 or so before a break. So just we’re introducing this. We got playing time together. Wealth, you say, divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:07:53.94] spk_4:
So the accumulation of wealth so money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, I say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed on the acts that could result as as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what? That’s what has calls the Harmon itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done.

[00:08:36.03] spk_3:
You’ve got 7/16 steps to that. The second half of your book. All right, We’ll take our first break.

[00:09:08.03] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new c p A. A firm whose service is excellent, who provides clear direction and timetables and is easy to work with. And you know where you know a partner There, There where? You know, a partner you touch to talk to him. He’ll tell you honestly whether they can help you in the new year. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to de colonizing wealth.

[00:09:17.69] spk_3:
Now back to Naghani Onishi! That is your Indian name. Did I by any chance, say that correctly?

[00:09:20.61] spk_4:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my Ojibwe these days.

[00:09:33.91] spk_1:
You don’t know your boy That sounds that is your Indian name. Yes. Uh, leading bird. Tell the story of how

[00:09:34.78] spk_3:
you got that name. We’ll come back to you. Don’t. I will come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t think this is a good story. How you got that name?

[00:11:01.71] spk_4:
So my tribe, the Lumbee Tribal North Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? That’s right. So But when I when I was working in North Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in North Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh, North Carolina. And so But I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and Thio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, If you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um And so I met with this guy in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado, where this this Native Health Conference. So it was all, ah, tell the story in the book is quite, um, hilarious and in many ways let the Indian of our session where I was feeling excited about, you know, the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I, you know, had such colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native named Johnny Benesch A which means leading bird. So I was very honored. And my first thought was, What kind of bird, right? Am I a little Tweety bird or in my mighty eagle Republicans? Right. Birds are vest. So, um, he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V formation. Um, And as I when I left, I studied of these birds and they’re

[00:11:22.06] spk_3:
the leading bird I’m deleting. There is leading Berg.

[00:12:02.84] spk_4:
I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when I when I learned these characteristics, I just felt really I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life. And I think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:19.17] spk_3:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered. They’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other. But they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they say, I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they could be injured, right?

[00:12:41.69] spk_4:
It’s there. It’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, GPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more, but I think when they’re when someone is down are you know there’s an injury or whatever may happen? They there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our Inter related, you know, being inter related

[00:13:19.31] spk_3:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is this is an indigenous belief that we are all related. And that’s what it makes me think of the birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other?

[00:13:35.43] spk_4:
Yes. Oh, there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, ah, you know, we are We are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset, or world view from sort of the American individualistic type of mindset. Um, we also have connected to that viewpoint is on this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things all of the decisions and that we’re making today are gonna impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family. But also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work.

[00:14:47.45] spk_3:
And you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility. For as you said, we’re thriving and suffering together. Um, what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:15:03.48] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think

[00:15:04.78] spk_3:
Are we all responsible?

[00:15:18.54] spk_4:
We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks we, you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes,

[00:15:22.47] spk_3:
like the natural path of progress. Absolutely Way. It’s learned,

[00:15:59.68] spk_4:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher Columbus, for example. And so but the realities are that colonization, um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we as as the people have not come to terms with we. Actually, we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. S o the dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, I refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies. As as a nation, they show up in our policies are systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power,

[00:16:27.93] spk_3:
least naturally, to your point about us, them organizations

[00:17:12.06] spk_4:
Absolutely. So you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate you know, the dynamics of colonization. Because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. Ah, would you look at, um asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety net and vulnerable communities on when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend. Did you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening? Because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundations said on $800 billion of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, healthcare, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the RS Thio payout 5% of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on Lee, a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community

[00:18:18.61] spk_3:
Let’s assume it’s I know there are a lot of foundations that use that 5% minimum as their maximum, so that 05% of that would be $40 billion. So the counter is bad, but there’s $40 billion coming each year. Could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And, you know, we’re trying to preserve this, uh, this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were tryingto no, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say

[00:18:29.13] spk_4:
right, right? And,

[00:18:30.24] spk_1:
you know, I

[00:19:43.06] spk_4:
think that I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5% when Congress had acted that 5% rule, um, it actually began at 6% I believe in 1974 and then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy, the wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break. And so that that, uh, I rs minimum payout of 5% That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants. And so you know, So it is sort of, ah, the other thing to explore if you are with a 95% that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and instructed extractive industries that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation.

[00:20:14.59] spk_3:
Yes, you make the point often, uh, that often right, those investments are in our in industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission, and in fact, funding. Um, the, uh there’s something else that there’s your estimate, Thea. The way the money is. All right. Well, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s

[00:20:14.96] spk_1:
there’s a lot

[00:20:31.41] spk_3:
that organizations congee gained by hiring people of color. Indigenous people. What? Ah, and very few. Your rare exception. Um, working in found eight doing foundation work. What’s the make explicit? Those, uh, those advantages.

[00:20:57.22] spk_4:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely, um, exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 Native Americans that I could find. We kind of found each other. What year was that? This was in 2005. That’s along. And we are now. Ah, there’s about 25 of us now. The last time I counted. So

[00:20:57.65] spk_1:
yeah,

[00:20:57.85] spk_4:
there’s there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations. And I think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:10.23] spk_1:
and not only

[00:21:10.59] spk_3:
foundations but non profits. NGOs doing the groundwork, absolutely foundations of the funders on Dove course. Some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but But for the nonprofits doing the day to day work A CZ well represent the communities that you’re

[00:21:25.93] spk_4:
absolutely. It kind of makes sense right and felt, You know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staffs. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit our foundation, too tohave folks that work there, who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, um, you know about the problem in a different way is gonna create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies that that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes on board meetings where decisions were being made and always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room. And I hear these decisions are these conversations, and I’m thinking like, Oh, my God, like you know, this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother mar my family that’s still living in poverty. Decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah,

[00:22:58.01] spk_3:
yeah. Um, and ah, I I thought of what I was gonna ask you about. Just comment on the foundation wise, we do see some foundation saying that they’re gonna spend down their assets. Um, I wouldn’t say it’s, ah, needle moving. But you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. Um, was Paul Allen was it? Ah, not pull out the Microsoft. Uh, I think the Microsoft founder co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was Paul Allen. Okay, um, I was thinking of Steve Allen to come. You’ll come. That’s why I thought No, it wasn’t him, but was Paul Allen. I think his foundation’s one, But

[00:23:17.21] spk_1:
there are some. So we do

[00:23:20.24] spk_3:
hear some glimmers. Ah, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle.

[00:23:24.27] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I mean, I think deciding to spend down is ah is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now if we actually release the funds or

[00:23:34.56] spk_1:
even if

[00:24:22.80] spk_4:
you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um, there there’s a lot of amazing work happening. Um, right now that is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh, the 5% that is being invested only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so I think, you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards the foundation should think about. What is the value of you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like, what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways, it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of, you know, um, way of thinking.

[00:24:36.81] spk_3:
If this was CNN right now, I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times have to work on that. A talking alternative we need. We need video capture and screens and everything in your video in your interview with David Bernstein, New York Times. Uh, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color, philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:24:54.05] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:25:49.89] spk_4:
You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail. Um, we hurt the hardest. And, uh, but there’s just something so magical about him. And since a private I have about my community because we’re so resilient, like, regardless of, um, you know, all of the trauma of the colonization the, um, you know, genocide, stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. And so there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would if I weren’t native. I will be interested to know, Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the front lines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom. And you know often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, are see strategies. Or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up. And I’m like, Wow, we’ve been doing that are in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:08.00] spk_3:
Is there still a Lumbee community in Robson Robson County?

[00:26:11.69] spk_4:
Yes, there are. There are about 60,000 enroll members and a Lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County.

[00:26:23.86] spk_3:
Okay, Now have in North Carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in. Can I be in a number?

[00:26:25.25] spk_4:
You know, we were very inclusive. We we’ll take will adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. T officially enrolled.

[00:26:34.75] spk_1:
That’s a stretch

[00:26:35.59] spk_3:
for an Italian American with North Carolina license plate on driver’s license. All right, um,

[00:26:42.91] spk_1:
you Ah, you talk about,

[00:27:23.48] spk_3:
um you know, I guess. I mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out. Ah, you know, piecemeal. Um, the the imbalance. You know, the grant, even the even the word, you know, the granting right. It’s like some, uh, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When, uh, your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s It’s it’s a It’s a right equally held by all.

[00:27:27.54] spk_4:
Yet, you know, I think power and money a lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right and equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from lens of equality. So we’re gonna have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat.

[00:28:02.24] spk_3:
So that’s not gonna happen,

[00:28:03.24] spk_1:
you know, that’s that’s highly unlikely.

[00:28:06.11] spk_3:
Like infant is really small. Unlikely.

[00:28:15.58] spk_4:
You know, it’s a hard thing for people thio to think about it, especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I’m I have less than I’ve had So, um, but, you know, we II want to think about this abundance mind frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging. There’s who have not been privileged by that.

[00:28:41.80] spk_3:
So I love that you. You approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break.

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software

[00:28:45.74] spk_1:
in the new

[00:30:19.28] spk_2:
year Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. It’s built for you. Their customer service is excellent, so they’ll take care of you and they have a free 60 day trial. You get that on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin. Now, time for Tony’s Take two four must have to start your planned giving in 2020 um, the video at tony-martignetti dot com has four things that you need to have in place for you to kick off. Planned giving in 2020. I’ll be more than happy to give you one right here and then for the video for the other three. You got to go to the video. Um, you have to be at least five years old. People have to be confident that your organization is going to live longer than them because they’re gonna be including you in their estate plan. Most likely there will. And they need to know that you’re gonna survive them so that there could be a gift for your organization when they die. So in order to have that confidence or for your donors to feel that confidence about your longevity, I like to see at least five years of history in the organization and for the other three, Um, check the video, and that is at tony-martignetti. Dotcom four must have to start your plan giving in 2020. That is Tony’s Take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Our first entry in the innovators. Siri’s.

[00:30:25.90] spk_3:
Now I wanna go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar Villanueva.

[00:30:30.47] spk_1:
See, I thought

[00:30:31.29] spk_3:
he would pronounce his name. Edgar and I was wrong. And But that’s that’s why I said Edgar.

[00:30:38.00] spk_1:
But it’s Edgar Edgar Edgar Villanueva and de colonizing

[00:30:40.03] spk_3:
wealth. Welcome back, you two go for

[00:30:42.08] spk_4:
Thanks for having me. Okay?

[00:30:43.29] spk_1:
Just will be here. Yes. Yeah. You haven’t done anything that

[00:30:46.79] spk_3:
would lead me to shut your mic off. Um, it hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened.

[00:30:51.74] spk_1:
So let’s let’s start getting ah positive, Okay.

[00:31:03.37] spk_3:
You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, and, uh, I thought you came up, like five short. I mean that we have only 12 status if

[00:31:08.21] spk_1:
you want to. If you want to share power, you’re gonna have to

[00:31:16.07] spk_3:
have you got to step it up with 12 steps or or even 15. You have more than the colonizer, but but

[00:31:16.83] spk_1:
the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical.

[00:31:30.80] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s Ah, there’s ah, quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on

[00:31:35.14] spk_3:
is a prime number. Got that event right? That’s that’s I don’t know why.

[00:31:40.12] spk_4:
So, you know, But I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no ah, linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:32:04.50] spk_3:
lets them out for us. Just list all seven and then we’ll talk about

[00:32:07.26] spk_4:
I’m sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair.

[00:32:15.64] spk_5:
Okay. Um,

[00:32:16.61] spk_1:
so you’ve been thinking

[00:32:17.17] spk_3:
about this for a while in this? Uh, I just did. I admire the I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:32:51.25] spk_4:
Yes. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to, uh, just re ground myself in my values and, um and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and in philanthropy, who were, I think of very four thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country in to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this? Um And then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is, ah, method that’s used in schools. And I’m in the criminal justice system to help people deal with with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ah, model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:33:56.08] spk_3:
I saw ah grieving Ah, you say everybody I mean, because of our inter relatedness, where we all need to grieve, including people of color indigenous, those who have been oppressed.

[00:34:48.73] spk_4:
Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm in the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people? And, you know, I think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that Ah, that colonization and the idea of white supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s, ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book, um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being American. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and it feel connected to that in some way.

[00:35:21.33] spk_3:
Um and, um, the ah, the thing you talk about two is, uh, the orphans orphans. You say that? Ah, those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans? How’s that?

[00:36:55.80] spk_4:
I call them orphans. This is a term Moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from, given up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe thio this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that, there’s been a lost of sort of that that mother country for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know I’m not anti American, let me be very clear about that This is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud, TB, a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, um, you know, and and and not, um, that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your green appearance or from, or the language. They spoke with the culture they have. Um, and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities, that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. And if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You

[00:36:56.09] spk_1:
said a few

[00:36:56.41] spk_3:
minutes ago that white supremacy is not a riel. Not really. All right,

[00:37:00.09] spk_6:
Well,

[00:37:05.06] spk_3:
why why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really

[00:37:07.87] spk_4:
Well Well, the idea that that ah, you know, a certain group of people white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this wasn’t on ideology that was created. Um, in order, Thio be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been, you know, an idea that is not really, but we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, I was taught that, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if I were to behave or address or act, I’m in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was gonna be, ah, better thing for me. And so we know that the idea white supremacy is you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief.

[00:38:08.65] spk_3:
All right, Um and you’re you also encourage non profits and teams toe have ah, grieving space we’re talking about. We’re talking about grieve. We have about a minute before break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:38:23.18] spk_4:
Yes. So you know, these these steps are personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think, especially those of us working in the non profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave space. Space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into Philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities,

[00:39:06.61] spk_3:
the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But de colonizing wealth dot com That’s where you go. So I gotta take this break.

[00:39:34.75] spk_1:
Tell us, Start with the video at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant porting. You talk to them, have them

[00:39:36.36] spk_3:
watch the video and if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay.

[00:39:44.49] spk_1:
Tony, that m a

[00:39:53.06] spk_3:
slash now back to Edgar Edgar Villanueva. See, I practiced saying Edgard because I just assumed on. I thought, now I’m sure he uses Edgar, just

[00:39:57.42] spk_4:
like editor Allan Poe.

[00:39:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, I know, I know. I understand. That’s the, uh, uh, your name

[00:40:11.56] spk_3:
your Taliban ass anyway, And I I, uh I assumed we know what makes you know what happens when you make assume, make an ass of you and me, uh, so Okay,

[00:40:15.26] spk_5:
uh, Edgar, um, I

[00:40:15.37] spk_1:
like the idea

[00:40:30.21] spk_3:
of the grieving space. You know, acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds. 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how oppressive is that?

[00:40:38.83] spk_4:
Very oppressive. And in philanthropy is, especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of like, how this wealth was a master secrets that were then these families that you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward. As she said.

[00:41:24.56] spk_3:
And that was the next step in terms of, uh, your next step apologizing. Recognizing, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the Reynolds Kate be Is it Kate Pickett, Be Reynolds Foundation, Reynolds Tobacco, North Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not gonna ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we talked about in the in the steppe, apologizing.

[00:41:31.91] spk_4:
Absolutely. There was. There was no acknowledgment of that. And, uh, chapter one of the book is called My Arrival on the Plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of R. J. Reynolds and so really, literally and metaphorically, I was I was working there, but no, there was. There’s no acknowledgment of that. And I think you see that, you know, in North Carolina recently, the chancellor of you of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners. What most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition.

[00:42:28.10] spk_3:
Yeah, acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t Johns Hopkins University do something similar? That that they had their founders were, uh, Johns Hopkins. Their founders were slave owners,

[00:42:30.73] spk_4:
I think. Georgetown University,

[00:42:34.47] spk_3:
Georgetown. Sorry. Thank you. Okay, Georgetown, they were

[00:42:35.48] spk_1:
pretty, right? There were priests,

[00:42:37.76] spk_3:
priest founders that were slave owners.

[00:42:41.71] spk_4:
That’s right. Actually, no. Ah, friend of mine who lives in New Orleans is ah, black woman who is a descendant, um, and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together, talking about the history, talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And, you know, this has been a very ah healing, I think Ford, the university, and but also front for my friend Karen, who is now having that You know that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors.

[00:43:25.68] spk_3:
You talk a good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um, Canada, You

[00:43:26.14] spk_1:
got to get the book way. Can’t. Can’t tell all

[00:43:28.56] spk_3:
these stories. I mean, I know what listeners I know. I know you love stories as much as I do, but

[00:43:32.32] spk_1:
there’s not enough time to just get the damn book.

[00:43:34.26] spk_3:
Just goto de colonizing both dot com For Pete’s sake. You

[00:43:41.40] spk_1:
go right now. If you’re listening Live, Where are you? But Pepsi? Schenectady, Uh, Nottingham, Maryland. Just go to

[00:43:47.80] spk_3:
de colonizing wealth dot com. Um, okay. Listening. You talk about mm. Empathic and generative listening.

[00:45:07.26] spk_4:
Right. So, you know, often when we when we moved to a process like this, we feel bad. We’ve apologized. Um, the default, sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, Okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so But before you move for an act, you just need to Paul’s toe, actually. Listen, tony, listen and learn. So thio for nonprofits, You know, I ran a non profit. I’ve worked in flame 34 14 years. When I asked non profits, What is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always I just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda. And on the non profit, they’re gonna be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience. And their history is just gonna make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is thio two to stop at times toe also, Listeninto let others be hard.

[00:45:57.50] spk_3:
Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Yeah, listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of donors. Andi, I know you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s That’s the beginning of a relationship, is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing, um, to whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees. Um, there there’s a lot to be learned. Goes back to the value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Um, Okay. So relation You want us to Ah, you want to relate?

[00:46:01.93] spk_1:
Let me ask

[00:46:05.23] spk_3:
you. Ah, you read, um, how to win friends and influence. People say dozens of times. Doesn’t I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book? You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Ah, Dale Carnegie’s book. Dozens of times.

[00:46:19.68] spk_4:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um I stole from the library of Ah. My mom was a domestic worker and she was carrying for ah, frail, elder elderly man handle this vast library. So ended up with this little book that you

[00:46:34.86] spk_3:
stole from an infirm.

[00:46:36.32] spk_4:
I believe. You know, I feel terrible about book Haunts me to this day. So this is a public.

[00:46:42.17] spk_1:
Didn’t even think to leave, like, 20 bucks or something on the table and have

[00:47:09.42] spk_4:
it if I had it at that. All right, Um, so hopefully this is my my way of giving back. This is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the wouldn’t take away from me in that book. Ah, is ah is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um, is when you’re when you’re talking to folks. People just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um, and if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend like, Well, Edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if I did

[00:47:22.68] spk_1:
it right, and so yeah,

[00:47:23.33] spk_4:
it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are, um, you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just gonna really take you much further and building a relationship

[00:47:45.83] spk_3:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking You

[00:47:46.00] spk_1:
have you have an

[00:47:50.78] spk_3:
example of? Ah, um a ah, like building design. Like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of offices.

[00:48:08.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas of, like, the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edges. Absolutely. Foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office, right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And, um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:48:40.37] spk_3:
Take a break. When we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational designed to instead of just office designed

[00:49:34.86] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation you’ve got your best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists, especially in the non profit space and other media, of course. Bloggers. Um uh, what were the other examples of media besides generals? Um, of course, any of the, uh, webinars that you could your expertise could be portrayed in webinars seminars, conferences. They can build those relationships. That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. They’re at turn hyphen to dot ceo. We’ve got butt loads, more time for de colonizing wealth.

[00:49:38.62] spk_3:
Now, we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both dotcom get the thing, get the book. Um, in terms of designing organizations ah, more egalitarian. You’d like to see

[00:49:52.48] spk_4:
absolutely so one of the steps the book is represent. And would

[00:49:56.54] spk_1:
you look

[00:49:56.95] spk_4:
at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part this sector? We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the CEO positions. Folks who really hold power organizations. So

[00:50:14.18] spk_1:
what are

[00:50:25.38] spk_4:
the one of the ideas that I put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many nonprofits. Funders actually are requiring this of their non profit that their funding, Um, and many cover organizations that receive government funding federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the service’s of theirs. Non profits

[00:50:53.40] spk_3:
again be representative. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a That’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:50:58.48] spk_4:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:51:12.01] spk_1:
And there are some

[00:51:12.47] spk_3:
examples use like the Novo Foundation in the book. They have, ah, women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something. Turning tow this building and and the decisions being made by women who are gonna be using the building.

[00:51:56.45] spk_4:
Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation. I really appreciate Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of Doesn’t over foundation wrote the Ford to my book. And they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens Thio folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be.

[00:52:07.49] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds

[00:52:08.62] spk_3:
for five years or seven years guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123 you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment,

[00:52:25.53] spk_4:
right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is Ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding. You know, folks can be you can focus on building a relationship versus oh, I’ve got to meet these certain objectives so I can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna you know how I’m gonna pay the salaries next year really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities

[00:53:00.35] spk_3:
and planning and comm plans that are being one only one or two years. Um, s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing, um, investing.

[00:53:33.04] spk_4:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for, um, for the public. Good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle on issues. If we’re supporting with, the 5% are right hand. Really good work. You know, Michigan, late at work. But in our left hand, we are investing 95% of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so, you know, they’re great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation, for example, who just recently declared that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus, is going to be used and support their mission.

[00:53:51.22] spk_3:
Yeah, on again, other examples in the book and, uh, we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, Actually, um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:54:29.31] spk_4:
the final step is repair all of us who were philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values.

[00:54:47.44] spk_3:
Okay, so I’ll give you last 30 seconds, Uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by What? You what? You talk about your mom?

[00:54:57.70] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving when we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or fix, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so I do you talk about my mom in the book who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and how to run a ministry out of our church to support Children.

[00:55:22.40] spk_1:
Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry

[00:55:24.24] spk_3:
just got got to get the book. You got to read

[00:55:25.63] spk_4:
the last ministry. And so is the giving of time. Treasure and talent not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities and ways that are, um, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists.

[00:55:37.74] spk_3:
Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva Thank you so much. Thank you

[00:55:42.24] spk_4:
for having me on tony.

[00:55:43.11] spk_2:
Real pleasure. Next week. Personalized Philanthropy With Steve Myers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But

[00:55:58.88] spk_1:
Coco Mat in

[00:55:59.36] spk_2:
Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producers

[00:56:35.02] spk_1:
Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for November 30, 2018: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
That’s the new book by Edgar Villanueva. His thesis: The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. Let’s talk to him and find out what he’s thinking.

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into hypo gargle aziz asia if you tickle to me with the idea that you missed today’s show and there’s a footnote. Number one on hyper gargle ist asia d colonizing wealth. That’s the new book by edgar villanueva. His thesis. The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy. We’ll talk to him and find out what he’s thinking. Tony steak too. No video responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant by wagner. Cps guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us, tony credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine it’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio edgar villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the andress family fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at grand valley state university and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot foundation for public education. He’s held leadership roles that kate be reynolds charitable trust in north carolina and marguerite kissy foundation in seattle. Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north carolina. You’ll find him at d colonizing wealth dot com and at villanueva edgar and welcome to studio. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october, october sixteenth. Yes, all right. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times. Yes. Congratulations on that prep prep prep you for non-profit radio. Right? Right. I’m ready. All your all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So that’s all culminated here. I promised listeners. Footnote one footnote one. Teo. Hyper guard. Alice the asia, of course, anybody listens to show knows that i opened with something funny like that, a disease, every single show. But in edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle ist asia. So this is the first time over four hundred shows that thea, that the guest unknowingly has provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You don’t know what we do that every single show? Um no, you don’t know that. I didn’t know that i’m not listening to non-profit video. It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. D colonizing wealth. You’re you’re you’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah, you’re raising some eyebrows. No one told me yesterday that i was the colin kaepernick of philanthropy, which i was like, i haven’t thought about it that way, but that’s not all so bad getting closer to the mike so people can hear you, you know, just get not almost intimate with it. Um, i used to call myself the charlie rose of charities until he blew that gig for me and how he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer because you talk about colonizer virus and exploitation and division like these are bad things. Yes, they are bad. Okay. What? Ah, what is the what? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to d colonized so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? You know, i have this firewall that were completely disconnected from wall street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes in systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate america. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways. Not in the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people. Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated, you know, especially i’m from the south, north carolina. We’ll talk about that. They’re absolutely was. A legacy of slavery is stolen lands that helped contribute to the mass of wealth. And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans. Yeah, so, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exist in our communities, you know, because colonization, as we often think about it, as something that happened five years ago in north carolina, especially where i’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparentsgeneration, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices. But we are areas, a resilient people. And those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to solve today as a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table. You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe north carolina. That’s right. Robertson county, north carolina, which which is not too far from where i own. I owned a home in pinehurst, which is a little north and west, i think of of robertson county lumber. So the lumbee tribe, i assume the lumber river is named for the lundy’s and lumberton the town that’s right name for lundy’s right so lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river fr african first yeah the river came first and so certainly the river came from i think the name of the river came right river’s been there much longer okay yes so we’re you know hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north carolina that i came together to form the lumpy try and named ourselves after that river um and we’re going to comeback teo native americans as the original philanthropists but that that struck me a lot i think you you say you say that the end of the at the end of books right where i caught it i’m whichever like a minute a half or so before the break so just we’re introducing this we got playing time together wealth you say divides us controls us, exploits us. What’s that about? So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, i say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has calls tarm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed, thie acts that can result as as a result of that, to exploit the land and to exploit people are or what? That’s what has calls the harmon itself. So the case that i’m going to make in this but that i’m making in this book, is that wealth money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that could actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven sixteenth steps to that second half your book. All right, we’ll take our first break pursuant. They’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and practices to your non-profit. It’s free as all the pursuant resources are you’re accustomed to this? You know this. You will find it on the listener landing page, which is where it’s always been. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please. Now back to don gani monisha. That is your indian name. Did i by any chance say that correctly? I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my ojibwe these days. You don’t know your tea boy. That sounds, but that is your indian name. Ah, leading bird. Tell the story of how you got that name. We’ll come backto. Don’t. We’ll come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t you think this is a good story? How you got that name? So my tribe, the lumbee tribal north carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming. You are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? Your mom’s right. So but when i when i was working in north carolina and native communities, i went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in north carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in raleigh, north carolina, and so, but i was very curious to meet with this medicine. Man and tio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, if you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give us a spiritual name or a native name on dh. So i met with this guy in the marriott hotel in denver, colorado, where this this native health conference. So it was all ah, tell the story in the book is quite hilarious and in many ways let the end of our session where i was feeling excited about you know the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because i, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native name. Naghani benesch a which means leading bird s o. I was very honored, and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right, am i a little tweety bird or a my mighty eagle? Silicon, right? Birds are vest. So he explained to me that i was the type of bird that flies in a v formation on daz i when i left, i studied of these birds, and they’re the leading bird. I’m deleting glamarys leading burghdoff. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the v formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands. It’s co dependents and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a v formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when i when i learned these characteristics, i just felt really i was really, really happy and content about this name because i do see that’s the type of leadership that i model in my everyday life. And i think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector. You explain how the birds communicate, which i’ve always wondered. They’re they’re just close enough that they can feel the vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re going toe bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they and i guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they going to injured, right? Yes, sir, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, you know, gps built into their bodies. And the other thing i recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, i want to learn research that a little bit more, but i think when they’re when someone is down, are you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen they there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our inter related, you know, being inter related exactly our interdependence. Now, this is a this is an indigenous, the belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of the birds also working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how? Explain this, this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other. Yeah, so there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, you know, we are we are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset or world view from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things, all of the decisions and that we’re making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that i am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far ford about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work and you encourage us two each that that each one of us takes responsibility for a cz you said were thriving and suffering together. What i’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that, yes. So you know, i think how are we all responsible? We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks, when we you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes, like the natural path of progress. Absolutely way. It’s learned right. We have holidays, you know, for for christopher columbus, for example. And so. But the realities are that colonization was something that was terrible, that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we, as as the people, have not come to terms with. We actually we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so i think we’re still dealing with the consequences on dso. The dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, i refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies as as a nation, they show up in our policies. Our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power the least naturally to your point about latto them organizations. Absolutely. So. You know, i think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, you know, the dynamics of colonization, because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth when you look at asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety in that vulnerable communities on. And when you look at who gets to allocate managing spend id, you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundation said on eight hundred billion dollars of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the irs. Teo payout five percent of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on ly. A small percentage is actually leaving the doors. There would be an invested in community. Let’s assume it’s i know there are a lot of foundations that use that five percent minimum as their maximum, so that zoho five percent of that would be forty billion dollars. So the counter is sabat. There’s forty billion dollars coming each year could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative, and you know, we’re trying to preserve this thiss foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know if we if we spent in the next two years the eight hundred billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future. Just future. Years and other generations were tryingto way want to be around for in perpetuity? The foundations would say, right, right. And you know, i think i think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that five percent when congress had acted that five percent rule, it actually began at six percent, i believe in nineteen seventy four and then in nineteen seventy six was lower to five percent. The reason that congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are our wealthy the wealthy one percent, or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break? And so that that irs minimum pay all of five percent? That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants and so you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with the ninety five percent that is not leaving the doors. If the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that ninety five percent is then being invested to generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up in harmful and extract extractive industries that our counter intuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point often that often, right, those investments are in our industries that are hurting the vory populations that foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission and in fact, funding the something else that was asked about thea the way the money is. All right, well, we’ll come back to it if i think of it. there’s there’s a lot that organisations khun gained by hiring people of color indigenous people what on dh very few your rare exception working in found eight doing foundation what what’s the what make explicit that those uh those advantages sure so you’re right i’m absolutely on exception i think when i started in philanthropy i was one of ten native americans that i could find we kind of found each other in what year was that this was in two thousand five that’s along and we are now there’s about twenty five of us now the last time i counted so yeah there’s there’s you know an amazing opportunity for foundations and i think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in to two foundations that have lived experience and not only foundations but non-profits now the ngos doing the ground work absolutely foundations of the funders on dove course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork we’re seeing that emerging but for the non-profits doing the day to day work a cz well represent the communities that you’re absolutely kind of makes sense right and felt you know it’s funny because some foundations actually require That of non-profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non-profit or foundation to have folks that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, you know, about the problem in a different way is going to create some proximity that i think is going to just inform strategies that make sense. And i can’t tell you the number of times i’ve been in strategic planning processes, on board meetings, where decisions were being made and always carry my mother my family with me, you know, in spirit into the room. And i hear these decisions are these conversations and i’m thinking like, oh, my god! Like, you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother more or my family. That’s still living. Brovey decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah, yeah. Dahna and, ah, i i thought of what i was going to ask you about or just comment on the foundation wise. We do see some foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Hyre i wouldn’t say it’s needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. You know, um, was paul allen, was it? Ah, not pull out the microsoft, i think. The microsoft founder co founder who recently died. I think his foundation was paul allen. Okay, i was thinking steve allen to come, but will come. That’s why i thought no, it wasn’t him, but was paul allen? I think his foundations one, but there are some. So we do here, some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle. Yeah, i think i mean, i think deciding to spend down is ah, is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now, if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more there. There’s a lot of amazing work happening right now. That is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color, which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know the the five percent that is being invested, only seven to eight percent of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so i think, you know, i think it’s a conversation that the boards of foundations should think about. What is the value of, you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity like what is? Is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels i can see that as being a very selfish type of, you know, ah, way of thinking. If this was cnn right now, i would play a video of you. But i don’t i don’t have that. But in your in your times get to work on that talking alternative. We need we need video capture and screens and everything in your video. In your interview with david bernstein new york times, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities. Tto learn about solutions. Yeah, you know, i think that i think of, you know, people of color. Indigenous folks is being the canaries in the coal mine. Sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail, we hurt the hardest. And but there’s just something so magical about sense of private i have about my community because we’re so resilient, like regardless of, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the, you know, genocide, stolen land. We still remain intact as the people on dh. So there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that i would if i weren’t native. I will be interested to know. Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom and you know, often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, rc strategies, or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and i’m like, well, we’ve been doing that aren’t in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster. Is there still a lumbee community in robson robson county? Yes, there are. There are about sixty thousand enrolled members in the lumpy tribe. The bulk of our community is still in robinson county. Okay, now i have a north carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in-kind being remember. You know, we were very inclusive. We we we’ll take it. We’ll adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. Shin ta. Officially enrolled. That’s a stretch for an italian american with just north carolina. License plate on driver’s licence. All right. You you talk about, you know, i guess, i mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it, and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out, you know, piecemeal. The the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the even the word. You know, the granting, right? It’s like some i was like, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s it’s it’s a it’s a right, equally held by all. Yeah, you know, i think power in money. A lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from linds of equality. So we’re going to have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity is going to actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know that sze, highly unlikely, like infant is really small. Unlikely? You know, it is a hard thing for people, teo to think about it. Especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, i i have less than i’ve had, so but, you know, wi i i wantto think about this abundance, my frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to tow work together too. You make sure that we are privileging there’s who have not been privileged by that. So i love that you you approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break when you see piela. If you need help with your nine ninety, perhaps, or your books properly managed have you got your books? Are you thinking about a c p a change? Maybe in twenty nineteen, talk to the wagner partner. You know him? Yeah. Huge tomb. He’s been a guest. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust you. He’ll be honest about whether wagner cpas is going to be able to help you. Accounting wise place to get started. Weinger cpas dot com now for tony’s, take two. I didn’t do a video this week. I was so relaxed over the thanksgiving holiday, including the weekend, the four days. I just didn’t think of it. I mean, i’ve been doing weekly videos for i’m sure much longer than you’re interested in watching. It’s been years. I just do a weekly or, you know, maybe every other week. And i was so relaxed over the over the four days that a cz i’ve encouraged you to be, you know, take time for yourself while i was following her own advice. I just didn’t even think to do a video that week for this for this week. So i hope that you took time made time. You know, you have your not going to find this time. You have to make it. I hope you made time for yourself and you are as relaxed as i was. And you forgot to do something that you should have done, aunt. Hope you’d get in trouble for it. I’m not in trouble. It’s time for the live listener love. Ah, and where’s it going? Let’s let’s go abroad. Were in sao paulo, brazil, were in moscow. We’re in seoul. Ah, and we’re disconnected. You know that’s not fair. That’s not very nice. So cool. Live listener loved to brazil, russia and tio seoul, south korea, on your haserot. Um oh, i knew i knew brazil was brazil. I don’t have my cici. I’ll just have to say, listen, love to you. Love goes out and bringing in abroad. I mean domestic. Back into the states. Tampa, florida, new york, new york, seattle, nottingham, maryland. Cool nottingham. That’s a new one. Welcome, seattle. Welcome, schenectady. Of course. Sorry about that before, but pepsi upstate new york who lets a new yorkers checking in. And boston, massachusetts and wilmington, north carolina. All right. North carolina special live love teo, shout out to north carolina. Um, and the podcast pleasantries. The vast majority of our over thirteen thousand listeners each week. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. I don’t know. You might listen. A couple days later, you might listen. A month later, you might binge. Listen to all your podcast. A month later. Whenever you’re checking us out. Thank you for putting us in your podcast schedule. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Now i want to go back to ed gar villanueva. Edgar villanueva. See, i thought he would pronounce his name edgar and i was wrong. And but that’s that’s what i said, edgar. But it’s edgar weinger villanueva and de colonizing wealth. Welcome back, you two. Go for thanks for having me. Okay. Just will be here. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. It hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s let’s start getting ah, positive. Okay. You know, the second roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. And i thought you came up, like, five short. I mean that we have another twelve status. I mean, if you want to, if you wantto share power, you’re gonna have to have you got to step it up with twelve steps or or even fifteen. You know, you have more than the colonizer, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical. Yeah. You know, it’s funny because i did have some resistance, teo having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s ah, there’s a quick and easy fix. If i just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on. Was a prime number. Got that event, right? Trying that’s that’s i don’t know why. Yeah, so what? You know, but i did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me. Where are you? Lets them out for us. Just list all seven. And then we’ll talk about, um sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while in this? Ah, i just did. I admire the admire the thinking that goes into this. Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that i’m working in and the disconnection that i felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community, teo just re ground myself in my values and on in-kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and into my community that i could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in non-profits and in philanthropy who were i think of very for thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this on dh then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restored of justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used to schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong, to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ahh model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with with the offender, with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong. To get to a place of truth and reconciliation. I saw ah, grieving. Ah, you say everybody. I mean because of our interrelated nous, where we all need to grieve, including the people of color indigenous, you know those who have been oppressed? Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened? What the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of describe mint too that the harmon, the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people. And, you know, i think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that, ah, that colonization and the idea why supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this side idea of being american. And i think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see, these commercials for these dna tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from, and they feel connected to that in some way. Um, and the the thing you talk about two is the orphans, orphans. You say that those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans. How’s that you called them orphans? This is a term moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is. It’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from giving up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe tio, this individualistic way of being in america. And so, with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country for lots of white folks in a loss of identity. Because although you know i’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that. This is the greatest country in the world, very proud tbe a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, you know, and and and not that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparent’s or from or the language they spoke of the culture they have. Um and i feel that that’s a loss for many white come unity’s that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. If we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a riel. Not really. All right, well, why why do you say that? Well, i mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really well. Well, the idea that that, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this was a kn ideology that was created in order, teo, be able to i have the types of oppressive movements and systems of policies they have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mind set that has been, you know, an idea that is not really. But we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, i was tall. That, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if i were to behave or dressed or act in a certain way, that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea why supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief. All right, um and your you also encourage non-profits and teams tohave a grieving space. But we’re talking about we’re talking about grief. We have about a minute before break, but then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in a in an office? Yes. So you know, these. These steps are personal, but it can be applied an organizational setting. And so i think, especially those of us working in the non-profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave. Ah, space space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, i share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities, the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book, you know, because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But d colonizing wealth dot com. That’s where you go. So i gotta take this break. Tell us. Start with the video at tony dahna em a slash tony tello’s. Then think to yourself, what companies can you ask to switch credit card processing to tello’s? Is it a company? Ohm maybe buy a boardmember family member, accompany already supporting you. Talk to them, have them watch the video. And if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay. Tony, that m a slash tony tello’s now back to ed gar edgar villanueva, c i practice saying edgard because i just assumed aunt, i thought no, i’m sure he uses that guard. Just like editor allan poe. Yeah, no, i know. I understand. That’s the it’s your name. You’re telling princessa anywhere, and i i assumed we know what makes you. You know what happens when you make a soon make an ass of u and me, so okay, uh, edgar, um, i like the idea of the grieving space. You know? Acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds a hundred percent nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how. How oppressive is that? Very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of, like, how this wealth was amassed, our secrets that are within these families that you know many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward, as she said. And and that was the next step in terms of you’re next time apologizing recognized, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the reynolds kate be is it kate? But can’t be reynolds foundation? Mean reynolds tobacco, north carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves? Hyre. I’m not gonna ask you if the kp reynolds foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the steppe. Apologizing? Absolutely. No, there was. There was no acknowledgment of that and chapter one of the book is called my arrival on the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of r. J. Reynolds. And so, really, literally and metaphorically i was i was working there, but no, there was there’s there’s no acknowledgment of that and i think you see that you know in north carolina recently the chancellor of you of the university of north carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners what most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition yeah acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t johns hopkins university to do something similar that that they had their founders were ah johns hopkins their founders were slave owners i think georgetown university georgetown sorry thank you okay georgetown they were pretty right there were priests priest founders that were slave owners that’s right actually no ah friend of mine who lives in new orleans is ah black woman who is a descendant on and was called to georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together talking about the history talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And you know, this has been very healing, i think, for the university and but also front for my friend karen, who is now having that you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors you talked a good bit about the reconciliation process in south africa. Canada. You got to get the book way. Can’t can’t tell all these stories. I mean, i know what listeners i know. I know you love stories as much as i do, but there’s not enough time to just get the damn book. Just goto de colonizing both dot com for pete’s sake, you go right now. If you’re listening live, where are yu? But pepsi? Schenectady, nottingham, maryland. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Okay, listening. You talk about and empathic and generative listening, right? So you know often when we when we moved to a process like this we feel bad. We’ve apologized the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, i’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so but before you before an act, you just need to paul’s toe. Actually. Listen toe, listen and learn. So teo, for for non-profits, you know, i ran a non-profit. I’ve worked inflame three for fourteen years. When i asked non-profits, what is the number? One thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always i just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda and the non-profits. They’re going to be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just it’s just going to make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be hard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is teo to stop a times toe also listen, until the others be hard. Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors and and i don’t know, you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s that’s the beginning of a relationship is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing two. Whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees there, there’s a lot to be learned. So she goes back to the value of bringing representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Okay, so relation you want us to ah, you want to relate? Let me ask you, you you you read how to win friends and influence people you say dozens of times doesn’t have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. What do you take away time after reading? Ah, dale carnegie’s book dozens of times. Well, you know, i still have an original copy from that i i stole from the library of ah. My mom was a domestic worker, and she was carrying for frill elder elderly man. They had a vast library, so i did it with this little book that you stole from an infirm. I didn’t. Natalie and i feel terrible about a book haunts me to this day. So this is a public didn’t even think to leave, like, twenty bucks or something on the table and have it if i had it at that. All right? Eh? So hopefully this is my my way of giving back is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the one takeaway for me in that book is, ah, what is really kind of connected to relating and listening is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. And if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend, like, well, edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if i didn’t say it and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are. You know, we i think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of filling heard and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just going really take you much further and building a relationship and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking you have you have an example of no, a, ah ah like building design like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices. Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas, like the colonizing virus, infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edge and absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices and you know the way they appear. Khun b. Super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources. You take a break when we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational. Designed to sort of just office designed our last break hoexter give the five part email many course debunking five myths. It’s five parts. Five myths. Think about all you think that all text donations are small and captain ten or fifteen dollars? No, sir. Not true. Do you think there’s a monthly or annual minimum? No, there’s lots of misinformation and hoexter give has a smarter, easier way to do text giving you raise more money. Get the email many course. Text. Npr to four four, four nine nine nine. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both. Dotcom. Get the thing. Get the book. In terms of designing organizations more egalitarian, you’d like to see absolutely so one of the steps that book is represent and what you look at the demographics of the non profit sector and especially in foundations that hard this sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power organizations. So what are the one of the ideas that i put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least fifty one percent or at least fifty percent of their board to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many non-profits funders actually are, you know, requiring this of their non-profit that their funding on dh many cover organizations that received government funding federal funding have thes types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of theirs. Non-profits again be representative? Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a that’s a stretch. Fifty one percent is the stretch. It’s a stretch. But you know, the conversation has has been xero about it. So i figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road. And there are some examples use, like the novo foundation in the book. They have a women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse something turning tow, this building and and decisions being made by women who are going to be using the building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation i really appreciate. Jennifer peter buffet, the founders of does novo foundation, wrote the foreword to my book, and they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work on dit shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens teo folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be. Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? They guaranteed you cite this in the book. No matter how much trouble you’re having in year one, two, three, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment, right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding you know folks can be. You can focus on building a relationship versus so i’ve got some meat, these certain objective. So i can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am i going to do? You know how i’m going to pay the salaries next year? Really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities and planning on dh khun plans that are being one only one or two years s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing investing. So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for for for the public good. Right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity. That that is really moving the needle issues. If we’re supporting with the five percent are right hand. Really good work. You know, mission related work. But in our left hand, we are investing. Ninety five percent of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive there, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so you know, they’re great foundations like the nathan cummings foundation, for example, who just recently declared that one hundred percent of their assets their entire corpus is going to be used on and support their mission. Yeah, on again, other examples in the book, and we have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, actually. So talk about your final step, which is the final step is repair all of us who are philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non-profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country? And so i think about looking your personal portfolio? Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values. Okay, so i’ll give you last thirty seconds in the way that the way i learned that natives are the original philanthropist was by what? You what, you talk about your mom? Yes. So, you know, i think a lot of giving what we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or folks, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so i do talk about my mom in the book, who was, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and and how to random ministry out of our church to support children? Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry just gotta you gotta get the book. You gotta read about it in history. And so is that giving of time, treasure and talent, not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists. Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com edgar villanueva. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on tony. Real pleasure next week. It may be the new book lean impact. I’m working on it for you. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital p matter-ness deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream tourney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers claire meyerhoff. Today, rob is the line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music that i’m hoping is going to come on very soon is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great you’re listening to the talking alternative network, you duitz to get you thinking. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor in center of attention. Tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show beyond potential live life. Your way on talk radio dot n y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates interested? 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