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Nonprofit Radio for August 7, 2015: Labor Law & IRS Helps Your Marketing

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Tom Wassel: Labor Law

Tom Wassel

Attorney Thomas Wassel, partner at Cullen and Dykman, says nonprofits often make mistakes around employee versus independent contractor (it’s not enough to pay them by invoice!) and when bringing in volunteers and interns. We’ll keep you on the right side of the law. (Originally broadcast on June 6, 2014)

 

 

Yigit Uctum: IRS Helps Your Marketing

Yigit Uctum

Yigit Uctum is a CPA with Wegner CPAs. He’s got ideas for using your IRS Form 990 in your marketing. See, it does have a purpose. (Originally broadcast on September 12, 2014)

 

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d grow a ganglion cyst if you handed me the thought that you missed today’s show labor law attorney thomas was cell partner at cullen and eichmann says non-profits often make mistakes around employee versus independent contractor it’s not enough to be paying them buy-in voice and when bringing in volunteers and interns, we’ll keep you on the right side of the law. This was originally broadcast on june sixth last year, and iris helps your marketing heat coach. Tomb is a c p a with wagner cpas. He’s got ideas for using your form? Uh nine ninety in your marketing. It does have a purpose that was originally broadcast on september twelfth. Twenty fourteen so today, it’s law and taxes which on non-profit radio are never boring on tony’s take two. Start your plan e-giving here responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising you need more prospects, they’re smart technology will find them pursuing dot com here is tom marcel and labor law. I’m very glad that subject of labor law for non-profit springs tom will sell to the studio. He’s, a partner in the law firm cullen and dyckman in garden city, new york. And in new york city, he’s been advising employers on a wide range of labor and employment law matters since nineteen eighty three. He is president elect of the long island, new york chapter of the labor and employment relations association. Thomas l welcome to the studio. Nice to nice to be in your studio, tony. Good to see you here. I’m glad we could do it face to face. So employees versus independent contractor, it turns out, is not enough to just pay somebody buy-in voice. And then, while love they’re they’re an independent contractor. That’s absolutely enough if you want to get into trouble. But it’s not enough if you want to do it right. Okay, basically, whenever one person is performing services for another person or another company, the presumption is that there are an employee and that with everything that that entails, including federal taxes, state taxes, worker’s compensation benefits, unemployment insurance benefits, employee health benefits, things like that in order for them to be classified properly as an independent contract that there’s a number of tests that they need to meet and if they don’t meet those tests and accompany miss classifies employees big trouble with the department of labor. Okay, we’ll talk about the misclassification ramifications, and so now we’re talking about federal and state, the the where where is this test? This test is from the i r s and then and then well, is that the eleven points is that from the irs? Absolutely the irs the internal revenue service has an eleven point test, which is used for determining whether or not you have to take out taxes from people’s wages, okay, but every state also has its own version of the test. They’re they’re pretty similar, but in terms of whether or not you need to contribute for worker’s compensation benefits or unemployment insurance benefits, and they all apply pretty much the same type of tests to determine the employee status. Okay, so it sounds like you’re in pretty good shape if you’re following the irs test, which we’re going to talk about, but you still need to enquire at the state level or or you’re not, because you’re not a hundred percent safe if you’re doing. Following just the irs that’s, that’s absolutely true in other words, each state can have its own rules and merely complying with the federal law that that’s fine in terms of federal taxation. But certain states have have stricter rules with regard to treating people as independent contractors versus employees. So you need to see counsel in the state in which you practice. I practice in new york, so you know, my comments about any law would be limited to anything in new york state and federal law. Okay, we’ll stick with the federal with the caveat that you should check the state level, but you’re on your you’re well, on your way if you’re if you’re complying with the irs regs, i imagine, absolutely okay, okay, so are we these these eleven items? Eyes is basically around the relationship between the employed, the non-profit and the person doing the work. Absolutely the key elements in the test without without trying to go over check checklist abila talk on some of them were good, some of it’s, a degree of control that thie and i’m going to go. I’m going to use the term employer here, even though we may. Say it’s a contractual relationship, okay, but no, we’ll say or the employer of the company, the relationship between the company and the person performing the service is in an employment relationship. For example, the company tells the employees where to work, what time to show up what their duties are? Ah, and what do they report to who they’re going to supervise if they’re going to supervise anybody? Things like that in a relationship like that that’s that tends towards the employer employee relationship as opposed to an independent contractor for an independent contractor, you basically say here’s the job, here’s here’s, what i want you to accomplish, maybe cem general guidelines do it when you think it’s appropriate, although there may be deadlines set, but i’m not going to tell you how to do it. I’m not going to supervise you on a day to day basis. I’m not going to provide you with the materials to do it. You do it on your own and i’m simply going to pay you a fee, which is another important distinction there the fee basis versus an hourly or salary type basis? Okay, we’ll get to that. You you touched. On something that i want to explore a little bit, the place where the work is done. So you you can’t have the person always coming to your office to perform the work, know that you can’t have the person doing the work in your office. But it really that would depend on the nature of the work. For example, if, if you if you have employees doing the same work, and now you’re going to bring in somebody else from the outside to sit alongside your employees and do the same work, well, that’s an indicator not not it’s, not a single point test but it’s, an indicator of an employer employee relationship. Now, if this person has his or her own business on the outside, has business cards may work from more than one company at the same time, or one after another on it, since you’re simply hiring that outside company to perform services for a limited period of time, well, that it tends to lean more towards the independent contractor relationship. How do we balance these eleven? Which we’ll get into some detail about some of the others too? But is it ah, like majority, if you have, if you have six out of the eleven year okay, andi it’s going to go one way or the other based on a majority? Or how does it work? Well, there is no bright line test. Those lawyers like to say, i think to some extent you apply the duck test if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck it’s very fact specific and a trier of fact, whether it would be through the department of labor or worker’s compensation board or in a court of law would look at all of these factors and say, well, okay, the control factor tends to lean towards employees, but the independent company factor tends to lean towards independent contractor and way all of these factors together, and then come up with an answer. Okay, so these eleven points are are the things that iris is going to consider? This is what they’re going to look at, and they’re going to put it all together. And they’re going to make a decision. Absolutely. Okay. And i guess it would work similarly at the state level. Like when you mention department of labor. We’re talking about the state department of labor could be state of the state or the united states department of labor. There’s both and and they’re very interested because independent contractors aren’t entitled to overtime or minimum wage or anything like that. You you pay them a fee or you pay them. You pay a company a fee to do something and that’s. Fine. But if their employees and they work more than forty hours in a week, they’re entitled to overtime. Yeah, we may have time to get more into that. Right. Okay. Um, i think we will. Actually, um, what are some of the other side? The other factors in these in these eleven points? Well, as i mentioned it’s the ah it’s. How people are paid. Yeah. That’s a good one. Sorry. Let’s. Talk about that one. The fee versus fee versus salary. Right. Well, typically, an employee may get an hourly wage. May get a weekly salary. It’s generally, the relationship is often not always but often sort of. Open ended that is to say, we’re going to hire you, not necessarily for two week barrier or until you finish this job, but we’re going to hire you as an employee and keep you on, but we pay you on a pay check. Ah, as opposed to an independent contractor who would normally be paid through some voucher system or through through ah, obviously issuing a ten, ninety nine, which is the tax form for independent contractors and might be in a lump sum. It might be in regular payments, but it’s not based on number of hours worked or anything like that that again, depending on how you structure the deal, that would tend to lean more towards employees or more towards independent contractor. What about? I think you mentioned giving someone the tools to do the work so you shouldn’t be giving them ah, laptop tto do the work or or other things or certainly office space dedicated in the office? I mean, that’s tending to look like employment, right? When you’re giving them that stuff? Absolutely. If i say, come into my place of business and i’m going to give you everything you need to do. The job and you don’t have toe put anything on the table other than what i give you that’s the hallmark of an employee, as opposed to an independent contractor who brings their own knowledge, skills and tools to the table and does the job that you’re paying them to do. We’ll go out for a short break, and when we come back, tell marcel and i’m going to keep talking about this and then we’ll get into volunteers and interns, and then i believe we will have time to for overtime for employees you’re supposed be paying your employees overtime. Do you maybe want to turn this off? If you’re listening in the office on monday, only the bosses want to hear this. We’ll get into all that stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked. And levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guess directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Dahna welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Let’s, send some live listener love arco, idaho and orlando, florida live listener love to you very glad you with us let’s, go abroad! Seoul, korea manu haserot, islamabad, pakistan i’m sorry. I don’t know how to greet you in, uh in is it pasha pashtun? Passion is that i’m not sure what, but live listener love to you in islamabad, irrespective of how i would say it in your in your tongue, in your language bonem changing china, always welcoming the chinese lots of listeners. Ni hao, nagoya and tokyo, japan sending you konnichi wa and there are others we’ll get to them kuwait also, i wanted to get to kuwait. Um attorney thomas l let’s see if you’re if you’re the person who’s doing the work is getting their income from a bunch of different places. Is that that’s that’s? One of the factors, isn’t it that’s, clearly one of the factors, and and that would certainly militate or tend towards a finding of an independent contractor relationship? If you hire a company, the company may have its own letterhead may have its own invoices may have its own business cards may have an ad in the yellow pages for those of us who still actually use paper yellow pages or maybe a gn internet list thing nowadays. So if you hold yourself out as an independent company and maybe even filed company tax returns on have a company workers compensation policy, things like that that again would lean towards the independent contractor relationship rather than employees. If you are ah found by the irs to have misclassified people doing the work, would you expect that the irs is going to report to your state department of labor that they’ve found a misclassification? That’s, that’s a really good question, and i get asked that those kinds of questions a lot from lots of different employers, i tend to represent employers, and my understanding is no, they don’t necessarily do that. That particularly if you settle the case, the words that come to you and say you messed up, you need to pay x amount, and if you settle it voluntarily, they’re not going to go broadcasting it to the world so that there could be more agencies to come and knock on your door, because that would discourage you from settling in the first place that’s not to say that other agencies won’t find out about it. And certainly if the case were public, if you would have to go to court, which is a public record and other agencies saw that they could be knocking on your door as well, where do you see employers messing up? Well, it’s again, it’s the any of any of these factors will any or any role these factors? I have clients, and obviously i’m not going to mention names. Uh, i brought you for so it’s um, provocative, the name dropping. All right, i thought i’d like to keep practising law for a few more you’re not retired, they yeah, i have i have clients that have they’ll bring people in and they treat them as independent contractors and they say, well, they’re only going to be here for two months. I’m hiring them for a special project and i say yes, hiring see, that was the key word there on it doesn’t matter if you’re hyre it is a temporary employee or a permanent employee that’s one factor, but not not controlling temporary employees, their employees, so you have to treat them as contractors, and i’ve had a number of audits fromthe state workers compensation, border unemployment insurance division that come in and say you’re not paying premiums to these people because you’re not treating them as employees. Pay up. What? What are the penalties let’s talk about the federal level? What would you expect from the irs if ur misclassifying? Well again? In most cases, if if you own up to the to the mistake, you’ll certainly have to pay what’s owed but safe for the i r s not only will you have to pay what the employers share of the taxes wouldn’t really be, and they also have to pay the employees share of the tactics so security taxes that should have been paid exactly pay both the employer and the employee because the employer messes up, the irs isn’t going to go to the employees and say, by the way, some of that money you got, we want you to give some of it back. It’s, the employer’s responsibility to properly pay the employees. Okay, so the back taxes that were owed, what else? What else might be expect? Well, there, there could be civil penalties involved to or if it was done knowingly over a long period of time, with no knowing that you were violating the law usually second or third offenders, there could be some more severe penalties involved as well, you’re always welcome teo disagree with young arrests, right on contest there, their belief that you’re misclassifying absolutely, you know, just just cause the irs says so doesn’t make it so. But the presumption is that these people are employees, right, and it’s up to the employer to prove based on the law that these people are actually independent contractors. So if you if you want to fight them, you better have a pretty good case. Let’s move teo volunteers and interns what? What are what are non-profits often getting wrong around these? Well, the good news for not for not-for-profits we call them not-for-profits in new york, but non-profits same, the good news for non-profits is that you’re allowed tohave volunteers in the in the in the in the for-profit sector, you basically can’t have volunteers. Anybody who does work for you has to be paid, but in the in the nonprofit sector, you can’t have volunteers, but there are some rules about that as well. The work that’s being volunteered for can’t be the same kind of work that’s otherwise being done. In other words, you can’t have a paid clerical person sitting at a desk and then have somebody else come in and say, well, i’m going to volunteer and i’m going to do the same work sitting side by side the paid pearl really? All right, so let’s, let’s taken example of that suppose closed. You have employees that are preparing mailings. You’ve got a five thousand piece mailing going out and you don’t hyre ah, male house, you’re doing it inside and you’ve got people stuffing in printing, stuffing envelopes, putting stamps on, and then you bring some volunteers in to do that same work side by side with employees. That’s that’s, not a volunteer. I’d be very concerned about that. If i was the employer and i if i was their attorney, i would be tell saying we need to take a long, hard look at this because again, people sitting side by side, some people are being paid. Some people are, quote, unquote, volunteering very dangerous situation, even if the volunteers volunteered. I mean, even if they walked in and they love the mission, they’ve said, i want to help you. How can i help? And you said, well, we could use ten hours on, you know, over the weekend to put this mailing together well not-for-profits tend to be generally charitable, religious or religious organizations and the servant public purpose and that’s why they’re allowed tohave volunteers to some extent, but to the extent that you’re basically just doing the same work as other employees and saying, i don’t want to get paid for it, the law doesn’t really sanction such things. Oh, my, okay, i got to take a little tension because you mentioned for-profit companies, and i’m interested in that on the intern side. What about all the unpaid internships that are coming right now? It’s, it’s, summertime, what about those? Well, and you read about them all the time in the paper about the irs or the part you read about them in the new york journal? I don’t not seeing it in the where i’m seeing in popular, more more general press well, you get for-profit ce are allowed to have interns, but not that you can’t just but but i had on somebody and say, hi, you’re an intern, you’re going to work for me and you’re not going to get paid that would be violating the minimum wage laws for, among other things, but somebody can provide an internship if under certain circumstances, if they’re getting some sort of academic credit from an outside institution, if they are getting some sort of actual training from you that’s not specifically tailored to your organisation, but but taylor to their field of study, if they understand from the outset that they’re not going to get paid and that’s an internship also, it has to be a relationship where i understand from the outset otherwise it’s indentured servitude you tell them you’re getting gonna get paid, then they don’t they don’t see a paycheck. That’s ah, there’s got okay. That’s clearly got to be rolled. Believe it or not that’s that’s what? I passed that spelled out there. They have to understand that somebody’s done it. Yeah, all right, on. And also, they’re supposed to actually, because they’re an intern and learning from you, they’re supposed to be, if if anything, and impediments to the business not ah. Bonus to the business. In other words, if the business says we’re going to hyre fifty interns to do all sorts of work for us and make money for us that’s not really a bona fide internship, the purpose of the internship, the primary purpose is to give training to the intern, not to make money for the company. And if it’s really a benefit to the company that’s one of the factors that will be looked at to say these air not truly entrance. Okay, thank you for taking little digression in tow. For-profit i love it, you know, you you have these answers on top, your head man xero no notes, which i admire, i don’t like i don’t like notes, really? I have notes, but it is just off the top percent wonderful. I’ve been doing it for thirty plus years. I know you start to learn it if that helps. Yeah, yeah. So let’s go back to the non-profit side there are so the general rule is that you can’t have unpaid work as volunteers, but then there are these exceptions that we were starting to get into right if it’s a bona fide organization charitable. Organization and people are truly coming and say, i want to lend a hand to do you were having were having a blood drive or we’re having a a special event, and i’m a community member i’m going to come in and volunteer to give some of my time to help you that’s a true volunteer, but again, if if they’re volunteering simply to do work that the company not-for-profits would otherwise be paying for that’s a problem, employees of the not-for-profits basically can’t volunteer to give away free work. That’s interesting. I wonder if that comes up much. I don’t know. Well, if you see it well, i haven’t seen it, but it’s addressed in a number of decisions or regulations where somebody’s tried it. Yeah, obviously what’s in there? Yeah, right. That’s. Interesting. Okay, if you haven’t, i’d say you have an employee working for enough for-profit and and and there’s some child care. You’re going to sit with some child kind of simple. I don’t want to use the term baby sitting because that sounds majority, but some sort of ah monitoring situation, which is not within the normal scope of that employees work. That might be okay for a volunteer for the employees, but certainly the employees can volunteer to do additional work that employees already getting paid for. And where do you see non-profits making mistakes around the volunteer and in turn, well, i get calls from from some of my not non-profits and so, you know, we’ve got we’ve got all these people are in here and, you know, they’re here for, you know, ten or fifteen hours a week doing all this stuff, and i say, really, what’s your first question was where something well, i say, well, what are they doing? Art? Do you have other people that you’re paying to do the same work? And they’re working side by side? Are there are these people already employed by you? Because if they are that’s major red flag on dh again, if they’re duplicating or substituting their substituting for paid employees, that’s, that’s a problem? We’ve got somebody who’s out on a totally leave elearning leave a family medical leave act type of leave, so they’re gonna be out for twelve weeks, so we’re gonna have a volunteer filling for twelve weeks, okay? Do you have a sound of a klaxon in? Here or, you know piela only like that. But that’s just my voice is all we have is scary enough. Thrill enough weak enough as it is. That’s very bad. So paternity leave maternity leave. You can’t have a volunteer filling in. You’re basically saying, i’m going to have somebody do the same work as a paid employee, but i’m not going to pay them. No lost don’t let you do that. All right? I think that’s very interesting. All right, so what do we do, teo? To remedy this. So when your clients are then calling and there, then finding out in this call that they’re they’re running afoul, what do we do next? Well, i tell them aside, i’m obligated to do as an attorney. You should change this and you should start treating people correctly going forward because every day that you’re in violation of the labor laws or the or the tax code is is a new problem. If you change things today or tomorrow and start treating people properly, pay them, then you don’t really have a problem. And by the way, all you have to do to comply with most laws is pay minimum. Wage and you know you don’t you could have people have clerical people making fifteen dollars an hour. I need somebody to fill in, and i’m just going to pay the minimum wage. You can do that, you just can’t pay him nothing. You can’t have them volunteer if they’re not truly bona fide volunteers, can you work out some alternate form of compensation besides, besides money? Like maybe they get some benefits of services from the organization, i guess sort of a barter arrangements, but i’m thing thinking of is that is that possible barter arrangements are legal, but their taxable i don’t represent any barter companies, but i happen to have a close friend who’s involved in a bartering company, and i know that when party a’s trading goods or services with party be, both sides are issued ten, ninety nines and and the company, the bartering company, will report that to the irs. So if you just say instead of paying you seven twenty five an hour, which is the federal minimum wage, it’s hyre in new york state and a lot of other states, but instead of paying you seven twenty five an hour for forty hours, which is with two, two hundred ninety eight dollars a week. I’m going to give you two hundred ninety dollars, worth of free food, that’s that’s a taxable event and frankly, it doesn’t comply with the law. The fair labor standards act, which is the federal law that requires people get paid, requires that you get paid in cash or the equivalent of cash, not in goods and services they’re certain deductions allowed, but not completely excellent. Now we’re talking about federal and state law here, a cz well around the volunteers and interns, absolutely okay, so we’re talking mostly federal, but with the same qualification you need to check about check what the standards are in in your state are you? Are you still pretty well on your way to compliance? If you’re if you’re complying with what the irs requires, like like we said over on the independent contractor side e, i would say, you know, qualified lee, if that’s a word, if you’re complying with the federal rules, you are more than likely quality complying with state rules, but i certainly can’t give that as a guarantee without taking a look at the state rules, understand? Okay, let’s, spend a little a little time. We’re just a couple more minutes on overtime for employees. What is the problem here that you see? Big problem is that certain employees aren’t being paid overtime because employers think they don’t have to. And the biggest fallacy, the biggest myth that i see is and and employers and employees both believed this is that if you paid a salary, you don’t get overtime that’s not true, you need to be paid a salary in order to be considered exempt from overtime, but on ly, certain employees performing certain duties are exempt from overtime the main ones. I don’t talk about those one of those executives, administrators or administrative xero and professionals, so if you’re ah not for-profit ifyou’re ah, counselor, a psychologist, psychiatrist, a professional you’re not in your pay and you’re paid on a salary you’re not entitled to overtime, but you may be a highly highly paid administrative person who works closely with management. You may be exempt from overtime, but if you are a lower levels let’s, say, clerical person lower simply on the orc chart. Not in terms of your worth, but and you’re you don’t. Have it a lot of discretion and control doesn’t matter if you paid on a salary you’re entitled to overtime. If you work more than forty hours in a work week and that’s not waivable, you can’t agree not to take it. You can’t enter into a contract dipped in blood notarized doesn’t matter. You have to get paid for all hours worked at time and a half and not less than time and a half. Pay attention to the labor law. Thomas l, a partner in the law firm of cullen c u l l e n and die kayman d y k m a n in garden city, new york and also in new york city. Thomas l thank you very, very much in my pleasure mine as well. Tony’s take two and irs helps your marketing coming up first. Pursuant, they do full service fund-raising from web based tools for most of our audience small and midsize non-profits two on site campaign counsel for organizations that need that pursuance ah, prospector platform finds donors in your database who are ready for upgrade these are the people who may be giving you twenty dollars a month, and they’re ready to give one hundred a month, or the twenty dollars, a year. You know they’re in there, but they’re not so easy to find. Prospector platform does that it finds thes upgradeable donors so that you’re focused on the people that you should be spending the most time with not people who aren’t willing and able teo upgrade. Therefore you raise more money. You find your upgrade prospects who are hiding in plain sight. Prospector platform is at pursuant dot com my video this week is start your plans giving program here there are lots of reasons why charitable bequests, which our gift in wills are the most popular planned gift. Ah, i tick off a bunch of reasons that make request marketing the way to start your plan giving program and for a small shop that may be where you stop perfectly respectable it’s all in the video and that is at tony martignetti dot com that’s tony’s take two for friday, seventh of august thirty first show of the year here is heat, coach, tomb and irs helps your marketing you touch tomb he’s, a senior manager at wagner cps, he has his mba master of accountancy and is a certified public accountant. He’s also a certified fraud examiner, he works exclusively with tax exempt organizations and oversees the firm’s form nine ninety nationwide preparation practice eat manages wagner’s, new york city office they’re at wagner cps dot com he’s here in the studio to talk about the irs and how it helps your marketing. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me here. My pleasure, it’s. Cool. Glad you’re in studio um, the form nine ninety this is i thought this was strictly a burden and something to be not avoid it. We can’t avoid it, but there’s something to be done and kind of put in the closet. You don’t think so well, you’re right. A lot ofthe organization leaders thinks that it’s a burden and actually it’s it’s a great opportunity for organizations to show the world that all the good things that they’ve done in the in the year, and then it’s also a good opportunity for them. Um, tell the words how validate their run and in the past this forest scene, justus the farm files it tires and on ly to be shown ah potential donors or anybody coming to your office and basically asking for it. And now it’s vital they available on the web, especially the most common is the guide star. And because it’s out there it it gives an opportunity for organization to the marketing tool ok, and not only guide store, but state attorneys general, a lot of them have them. Can a lot of organizations put the nine ninety on their site themselves? Yes, it’s a sort of transparency, for example, in new york every not-for-profits lee, just with new york that files annual report with the state off new york they’re nine ninety, along with their financial statements, are on their website. So your advice is to think of this as a marketing tool it’s an opportunity? Yes, so if you see it as just a burden, and as most organizations currently do and don’t get enough attention, it can potentially hurt you. So i think about is some organizations for some, organ says is true that the nine nineties seen more than they’ll annual report, but they spent all the time and energy on the annual report make it perfect, but they only spent maybe a fraction off the time to get the nine ninety ready for filing, and we’re gonna have some. Time to talk about this. But you even suggest that people beyond accountant’s contribute to the nine. Ninety their final way. We’ll have a chance to talk about that. That’s. I love that advice. Okay, let’s. Just make sure that everybody understands what we mean. Nine, ninety, there are there are three nine nineties and you’re the expert. So when were you acquainted with the three? Yeah, the. Depending on the size ofthe organization, the organizations can file three different ninety forms. If they are under fifty thousand dollars in revenue. What they can do is they can file a form called nine ninety and which is also known as the postcard return and it’s, just basic information and a statement saying that the revenues were less than fifty thousand dollars. Okay, and with some states like new york, if you are over twenty five, then you have to file the night. Nineties eve, which is the next step. So organizations that are in revenues under two hundred thousand and in assets under five hundred thousand, they can file this form nine ninety easy, which is a shorter form. And the larger organization about the threshold can fire. They have. To file the form nine. Ninety, which is longer so just like we have individual ten forties and ten. Forty easy. Exactly. Nine. Ninety and nine. Ninety easy and then also the nine. Ninety n write really small for the under fifty thousand dollars in revenue. Right? But you raise an interesting point. Sometimes. It’s state regulations that govern which nine. Ninety you have to submit is that is that right? Could you mention new york? Yeah, a certain threshold for the easy. Right. So you have to look to your state and also to the i r s exactly. Okay, exactly. We’re not talking about the nine, ninety filing requirements here. Just i digressed a little bit. We have talked about the nine, ninety in the past. Especially with with jean takagi. So you could find those shows in the past. But we want to focus on the nine, ninety as a marketing tool. And part of your advice is that even if you’re able teo file the shorter form, you might want to do one that’s the next level up. Exactly. It depends on the purpose ofthe how you’re going to use it. For example, if you are a small organization under fifty thousand dollars. You may want to file the nine. Ninety easy to get your nine ninety on guidestar. So or ah, a lot of foundations, for example. They would like you to stop mitt at nine. Ninety easy or a nine. Ninety with grant applications. And, um, that’s. Another reason why you may wanna files piled the longer form in this case. And if you are ah going after donors and even if you are a small organization, if you can show that guarding all these good covenant practices and all these other things is just like, well, run is a large organization. I think it’s also helps it, but it’s getting funds. But if you do not have a purpose, i think it always cost more time and money to file the longer form. So i think it has to be ah, i violated in for individual circumstances. Fair enough, but something to consider. And i just love the different perspective is what i wanted to have you on the show. Different perspective of the nine. Ninety that it’s, you know, as we said, it’s not just no longer just buried anymore, but to look at it as a zoo marketing tool and therefore has to be consistent with all your other the what is the traditional marketing tools, right? Exactly? Yeah, for example, you don’t want to confused the word with sending mixed messages if your annual report is saying one thing and if you’re ninety saying another thing than it confuses people. So that’s one ofthe reasons why certain parts ofthe the nine ninety should not be done prepared by the countenance. It should be prepared by people who is also preparing other other marketing materials. Excellent. Okay, so let’s, get into some of the different place is in the form nine. Ninety, where you see marketing opportunities, what’s the you like thea program service. Accomplishments? Yeah. Where? Where is that? Where will people find that? On the night that could be on the second page off for my love. I love that you’re a nine. Ninety expert. You he doesn’t. He does not have the nine, ninety here in front of him. Which is what, like seventeen pages or something leaves twelve o on the schedule. And then the school was one of my many more starita he does not have a nine. Ninety here in studio with me is so when i asked him, like, what section is it? Andi knows the page, so i okay, you have the expert here, all of that. All right. So, um, you know, your your practices nine nineties. I love it all right. To the program. Service accomplishments. Your program serves accomplished. Mons to page two. Part three. It’s beautiful. Basically, organisations get the chance here. This is like the free marketing or pretended to tell the world the all the great things that you have accomplished in the in the past year and latto off times despite tires. Instructions. This is one place iris helps you market, as you mentioned, is in the instructions i response you to be specific. They want you to use non financial data, but a lot of organizations just they see there’s a burden. So year after year, they repeat the same thing. And the and the nine ninety preparation is buried in their finance department or of the outside consultant who’s doing it right. And they just want to know when it’s done exactly what you can’t fill. You need a number for page four line. Ninety three i don’t know, like, you know, you probably rolling your eyes. Oh, my god, what an amateur question ninety three’s not on page four, for christ sake, but that’s just the thing is just buried until it’s ready for signature basically right? It’s? Not so who? So we can have program officers doing the program service accomplishment section or something like that, right? So basic, the its funding to say this take like a food pantry. It’s one thing to say that you have served meals to low income people in the community and it’s another thing toe give some more specific you can say piela, sir, different fifty thousand different people eighty thousand meals during the years, so it gives more, more basically more impact. And people are seeing this on guide star and on your website. And of course, it needs to be consistent with your other marketing material. Exactly. School what? What else? What other opportunities to see in that section? So i’ll give you another example of that because, like, if you’re a membership organization, try to use it to recruit members and you fear with conferences wanting to say you spent hundred thousand dollars in this conference is another thing to say. Our conference was attended by twelve hundred people. We had sixty different sessions. You can name some off the station, including x y z. And we also had to networking opportunities again like this is anything you can tell tow people join you as a member for a membership organization. And can anything that you see that would attract donors are whoever you are trying to calm me. It’s like. All right, cool. Very good governance. There’s the governance section is this the section on the nine. Ninety relieve the governance? Yeah. There’s a section on ninety nine on the nine. Ninety deaths as out ofthe questions about the governor inspection number part part six off your nine nine beautiful love, the basically in that part, it’s asking out ofthe question some of these questions, such as, um, whistle blower policy and document destruction policy. These can be mandated by others. Other ah um pre-tax sarbanes oxley. Examples on the other set is dahna lorts state law, right? And new york will start mandating certain certain policies there as well. And some off thes policies are very easy to add up. So their templates out there it’s not a huge burden, and i encourage every every organization, if do they do not have a policy out there, just go look for a sample adapted and checked the box yes to show that they’re they’re well, well run and well covered and thiss foot reduced the potential all at risk and it’s also important to use that affection toe basically solicit new board members because one off the users off this maybe perspective what members looking at your nine ninety to see if this is our organs and joe, i want to join this organization, are they so they know what they’re thinking? It might be exposed to any risk by joining terms. All right, we gotta go out for a break. You’re gonna do some more live listener love there’s so much i got to squeeze him in tuscaloosa, alabama welcome live. Listen, i’d love to you. I don’t think you’ve been with us before tuscaloosa welcome and jersey city, new jersey it’s, the birthplace of my my dad. He was born in greenville hospital, jersey city, new jersey, and langley, bilich british columbia. You’re back with us live listener left. All of you. We got some or stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests are there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights, published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. If you have big dreams in a small budget tune into tony martin. Any non-profit radio ideo. I’m adam braun, founder of pencils of promise. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent let’s, go abroad with live listener love belgium children, we can’t see your city! I thought that was a pretty open society. They’re belgium, but you’re you’re blocked but welcome live listen love to you, let’s, go to china, where i send ni hao to shanghai, chengdu, korea, multiple listeners in korea, as always, including soul, anya, haserot and japan, multiple listeners tokyo, akashi and others konnichiwa and, of course, podcast pleasantries to those of you listening in the time shift wherever you may be, ninety five hundred of you podcast pleasantries to you yeah, let’s, let’s keep talking about the governance section is that this is not a free form narrative section like the program service accomplishments, it it certain parts ofthe it are free form, for example, one off the question there is, like what’s. Your policy is to review the night ninety so in there you can explain, like how what process off leaving tonight ninety like does every boardmember sees the nine ninety who who looks at it, who prepares its who reviews it and how it gets wild, the other free form part. Is the conflict of interest policy. You can have different types. And who’s who’s monitoring. It goes who’s looking at it. And another part is the determination off the executive compensation. So what’s the policy around that looking at comparables like, do you have independent comity? Looking at it and documenting this decision? There are some some freeform parts over then within governments. Governance? Of course. Right. And we have talked about, i think, all those subjects that you just mentioned with with jean takagi when we’ve spent time on the appropriate governance and oversight. So this is a perfect dovetail. Um, how about you have something about the statement of functional expenses? Where will we find that? If we if we want to go into the nine ninety, um, that would be now little people. Nine off the ninety basically and, um, statement functional expenses. I believe you covered overhead. Mitt in in your previous shows, we have the we had the three signers of the overhead myth. That was on september sixteenth. The ceos of charity navigator, guidestar and better business bureau wise giving alliance. Yeah. So basically, i want to refer to that which is a great point they made and ah, out ofthe not-for-profits are too worried about their program service percentage and that, um, that they want to put like, as they reflect, i guess, everything they can in the program, and they should know that if it’s correct, so but sometimes like it gets to a point where they wanna look at things which is more like gray and, you know, they have the natural incentive to put more into program and not in management, general fund-raising and that doesn’t necessarily reflect the truth and ah, that’s area um, it’s sophisticated donor-centric e-giving and i ninety can tell that certain things are not correct there because certain things such as an audit, it has to be a hundred percent management general, accounting and audit is that, um so i think, it’s another point important here is that that schedule is done correctly so that a potential donor funders looking at it shouldn’t question anything accurate, so get on dh that one is the key. That was the whole message of the overhead myth letter is don’t feel you have to devote everything to to program at the expense of overhead, which can be very very important. Tisbury. So you have sophisticated people looking at your nine ninety, and you’re thinking of it as marketing. Keep that. Keep that in mind. We have to. We have just a couple minutes left. There’s a part of the nine. Ninety that you call a playground? Yes, that is that. That would be schedule. Oh, that’s a place where you can put anything that an organization can beat anything they want in there, so ah, i would use it as a, um what is it called? What is schedule? Oh, called, huh? I think it’s just called a schedule a it’s, like a supplementary information thinkit’s supplementary in formation. And basically, i would encourage organizations toe explain anything that might look unusual on the on the on the nine. Nineteen. Okay, for example, let’s say if they are starting a capital campaign and in that initial year they wouldn’t necessarily have to revenue yet, but they have all these fund-raising expenses. So if they’re fund-raising expense ratio is unusually high and this might be a place to explain that they’re going through the skips, the campaign and that they they’re also informing the public that they’re doing this. So it’s another place toe to use that for that. So outstanding, really interesting perspective on form nine ninety thank you very much. Thank you for my pleasure. You duitz doom senior manager at wagner cpas manager of their new york city office there at wagner cpas dot com next week will mccaskill, author of doing good? Well, no, i’m sorry. Doing well better now doing good, better that’s the book doing good better he’ll be on for the hour if you missed any part of today’s show finding on tony martignetti dot com where in the world else would you go? I did not forget live listen love all the live listeners who are out there can’t name you by city and state were pre recorded today, obviously, but you know the love is going out to live listeners podcast pleasantries, everybody listening in the time shift over ten thousand of you so glad you’re with us and it was very important affiliate affections to our affiliate listeners in stations throughout the country affections out to the affiliate listeners pursuant, find your upgrade prospects with prospector platform you’ll raise boatloads more money, and i’m not talking rowboats or kayaks. Or doory skiffs. We’re talking three masted schooners full of money. Pursuant dot com. Our creative producer was claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Shows social media is by susan chavez at susan chavez. Dot com on our music is by scott stein. Thank you, scotty. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and degree. 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Nonprofit Radio for April 24, 2015: On Your Tech Horizon & Volunteer Issues

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Amy Sample WardOn Your Tech Horizon

Picture of Amy Sample WardThere are two trends you need to be ahead of: The web is becoming mobile-first and donations are coming in digital currency. Amy Sample Ward is our social media contributor and the CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN).

 

 

 

Gene TakagiVolunteer Issues

Gene TakagiYou love your volunteers. But they have issues. Gene Takagi shares his concerns around liability; qualifying and training; using employees; and driving. Plus, we’ll talk about the issues around Sweet Briar College’s closing. Gene is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I developed biliary calculus if i got stoned by the idea that you missed today’s show on your tech horizon, there are two trends you need to be away aware of and ahead of the web is becoming mobile first and donations air coming in digital currency. Amy sample ward is our social media contributor and the ceo of and ten non-profit technology network and volunteer issues. You love your volunteers, but they have issues. Jean takagi shares his concerns around liability, qualifying and training using employees as volunteers and driving. Plus, we’ll talk about the issues around sweet briar college is closing, genes are legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group you got antenna and neo and both on the west coast on tony’s take two thank you. Responsive by opportunity collaboration, the working meeting on poverty reduction that ruins you for every other conference i love having amy several word back on the show and here she is she’s the ceo hello, how are you good? I’m not used to getting to be on the first half. I know. I know that. Let me give you a proper introduction because we want people to know that your most recent co authored book is social change anytime everywhere about online multi-channel engagement and that your block is that amy sample war dot org’s and that on twitter you’re at amy r s ward for ah, ours for rene. Hey. Hello there. Hi. Yes. Congratulations on a very successful non-profit technology conference. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being part of it again this year. I was thrilled. I loved it. And we haven’t played your interview yet from there, but but we will. It’s coming up. I had twenty five great great interviews from ntcdinosaur just last month. Right? Early march? Yeah, early martignetti i know. Oh, you cut out a little bit there. Are you on a regular ah, landline. I am on a regular phone. Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah. Okay. You just cut out a couple of syllables, okay? No problem. Um, let’s. See? So we’re concerned about google paying muchmore attention now, too. Mobile friendly sites. What? What is this? About well, i think we’ve all you know, we’ve talked on the show before you and i about way’s tio recognize in all of your different channels where folks are coming from and google as one of the probably main observers of where people are coming from was using the web has also noticed, of course, that you know a lot a lot of web traffic weather, that two things we would consider social media, like twitter and facebook for just general web surfing looking things up on websites is coming from mobile devices. That doesn’t just mean somebody smart phone, it could be a tablet, you know they’re not sitting at the at their desk on a full computer, and the experience of using the web on a smaller device, especially when you don’t have a full keyboard can be unpleasant, to say the least. You imagine trying tio apply for a job or fill in a donation form or, you know, even write more than couple sentences on a lot of websites. It’s really tough to dio? Yes way! We’ve all had that frustration. Yeah, and google has already made adjustments in their algorithm and in other pieces. Of how you experience the web to try and support the best experience you can have. And this week they also added into their algorithm, teo help support search result rankings whether or not the content was mobile simply so if you were doing a search on your smartphone for something you probably want tohave prioritized for you, content that you will be able to read once you click through on that search result, right? So it isn’t necessarily saying that if you if you don’t have the most beautiful, mobile friendly website, that you will no longer show up in search results there or anything like that, it’s, just helping people on other devices hopefully find content. They can read easily on the device they’re using. And google says on their, uh, their blah ge. And i’ll include the linked to their announcement of this in the takeaways on the facebook page that this is going to be a quote, a significant impact in our in our search results. Yes, so this’s something that yes, you and i have talked about it. But now, because google search is changing its algorithm, it’s become quite a bit more urgent. Yeah, i think it’s become more urgent, and i think it also, um, you know, it will certainly impact what people think about when they’re thinking about search engine optimization. Ceo a phrase that anybody who’s ever tried toe look up, you know, how do i make my sight? Hyre in search results, how do i make my sight easier to find? Seo search engine optimization is the term that they would have come across and traditionally best practices around ceo were things like, you know, making sure that your titles had a title tag so that search engines could find what the title of that page was easily and, you know, you spell out people’s names that aaron photos so that they’re, you know, linked and associated with that page, things that were about the text and about what would be called the metadata behind the page, the things that maybe don’t show up but that a search engine can still read and tell what’s on that page and you know, at least this is being transparent and everyone’s being told exactly what they can d’oh, which is great, but it just means that when you’re thinking about search engine optimization, it isn’t just content and metadata is also how accessible that content is for people that might want to read it. And this this only applies in terms of the google search results. They will only be hyre analyzing for hours or or indexing for mobile friendly sites if you’re doing your search from some summer night mobile device, right? Like you said, phone or tablet cetera. Okay, okay, now it may not be for everybody. I mean, maybe maybe there are sites that don’t have very many visitors coming to their site from a mobile device. That’s true, i think everyone should be checking their analytics on your web site c see what portion of web traffic you already have from from mobile devices. I know at and ten we have a lot. We have around a third of our visitors, especially when you drill down into people who visited the site by clicking through from one of our emails when we send out an e mail for example, our monthly connect newsletter, which is a compilation of guest articles from the months a lot of people reading that and clicking through our reading on a mobile device. So for us, we knew that was really important to make sure the site was accessible in that way. But i know there are plenty of organizations who haven’t made made updating their website to be more mobile friendly a big priority, because when they look at their analytics, they see so few people coming that’s kind of ah, catch twenty two argument, of course, if your site is just impossible to read, well, people aren’t had come or there at least not going to stay on the site, so then you won’t have those hyre numbers, but if you do know your audience and or you know you’re content, maybe the content you you have is something that inherently is for people who are on a computer looking it up. You know, i recognize there’s, some nuance, that argument, but i think for most organizations, it is something that we need to work on doesn’t mean you have to drop everything you’re doing and make sure you have a mobile friendly website by monday morning, but i think recognizing that it is important and will only become more important going forward anyway, we can start making certain changes priorities now and build out for more complete mobile friendly websites. Overtime. Okay, thank you and thank you for keeping this all in perspective. And that was why i pointed out that it’s just search results that air from mobile devices. So while you may be impinged, you’re not going to be lost in certain google search results, okay? Let’s keep things in perspective, especially single, especially since my sight was flagged by beth cantor as being non mobile friendly when she was if you block this issue and she was talking about you being on the show, and she pointed out that tony martignetti dot com is not mobile friendly. Thank youfor, yeah, she called it right out, but what i would say and this isn’t a biased opinion because i’m on your show. I think that there are a few different kinds of web sites when it comes to qualifying for being not mobile friendly, so their websites that you click through and of course it looks just like it does on the web on your phone, which is how the tony martignetti site look, but when i’m looking at your site on the web, it’s also pretty straight forward, right? There’s a big main section of posts of content and then a sidebar. So if you are on a mobile device, it’s easier to just tap that main column and view that content, then say, if you were on, i mean, we can even use the antenna website. Our home page looks just like yours that you know you’re going to see the full thing just zoomed down into a tiny device, but because our home pages and designed like yours where they’re just kind of one column of content and then a sidebar it’s difficult to know how to drill down how to tap and scroll in because it’s just so big. So i would say for you at least, even though it isn’t necessarily passing all of the tests and getting all the green check boxes by google’s mobile test, it is still something that i could functionally access. Where, as you know, we definitely don’t think that the inten website if you hit the home page, at least, is easy to navigate by trying to come in. Okay. And we’re gonna, we’re gonna go out for a break. And then we’ll talk about where there’s mobile friendly test site is. So that people contest their own sites and will keep, continue keeping this in perspective. And we’re gonna talk about bitcoin and digital currency. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked. And levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have for her. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent let’s do some live listener lovelace start abroad this time today in korea, we’ve got young sun, young, jean and soul all checking in korea on your haserot japan, only only tokyo today maybe others will check in, but a couple in tokyo can eat you are and also brooklyn now i’m sorry, that’s not very nice. Brooklyn, new york thank you for listening. Brooklyn that’s unkind sorry, you’re united arab emirates, you a even with us three, four times or so welcome from the united arab emirates we cannot see your city, but we know that you’re with us live, listener love always podcast pleasantries to people on the time shift, wherever you are, whatever device you’re listening on. I know it’s, i know we’re mobile abila optimized for podcast purposes, so you could be listening on the tablet or mobile or other or phone whatever you’ve got netbook we are ah, we’re optimized for that on the audio side, so podcast pleasantries and, of course, affiliate affections and i’m going to give a special shout out to our affiliate km jozy in the mid willamette valley. Because we’ve got amy amy on right now we’ve got the mid willamette valley around the portland and kaiser area non-profit radio for the capital and kaiser affiliate affections toe everybody throughout the country listening and one of the affiliate stations. Okay, i’m jozy have you ever been down there to visit them in? Ah, in portland and kaiser? Amy, i’ve never visited the station, but i’ve certainly been tio most everywhere in their service area. Have you ok, you’ve been down to the mid willamette valley? Oh, yes, ok, i’m hoping to get there and on the west coast trip after you have to let them know this mobile friendly test site that my sight failed. This’s what you were referring, teo green check boxes, green checks and little or you get red x is it’s i think if you just search mobile friendly test site and google, you’ll you’ll get it instantly. I also tweeted it already while we were talking on the non-profit radio hashtag that’s from the general you are if you’re listening and you’re really quick and you’ve got your browser open, you could just type in. Google dot com slash web masters flash tools flash mobile dash friendly. And it all take you to the test. Okay. All right. That’s. Very multi-channel of you. Thank you. I got red x is for, um, uh, text is too small. Lynx too close together and ah, there’s something else and was content wider than the screen. Um, yes. Yeah, that may. That may have been the third one that there were three things and i only wrote down two for somebody. Yeah, may be content to what? Yeah, something like that. That’s, right? That’s, right? All right, but we’re gonna work on it. We’re going to first look at the percentage of people who come from a mobile device. I would say, though, that my podcast in defense but the podcast site where people go to actually listen. If you’re not subscribed, we gotto listen. That is mobile friendly. So i passed one out of two sites is good. Exactly. And i think that’s a great segue way, whether you mentioned is that or not too how to think about what you should do with your life. Folks that are listening are also getting those red xs and failing failing the test you don’t necessarily overnight. And like i said before monday morning, you don’t need to come into the office with a whole new site that’s totally mobile friendly, but if you know that there are specific pieces of content, parts of your website, certain actions that you’re regularly promoting make those the top priority for being mobile friendly for you. Tony, you know that you’re not necessarily telling people every day on twitter say hey, go read every part of my website you’re telling people to go listen to the show live or or go download the podcast and listen, you know, on their commute home and that pathway that clicking through from twitter over to the listen side and browsing whichever episode they want to listen to. That experience is mobile friendly on dh that’s i think what really matters right now for your content, you can work overtime to optimize the rest of your site, but the pieces you’re regularly promoting and the pieces of content people would probably want to access from all different kinds of devices you have made accessible school. All right, i feel all right about that. Yeah, things keep things in perspective. Exactly. Exactly. I mean on the other side, you know, i’ve i’ve said the inten website also failed those tests, you know don’t feel bad about that, but we knew that, you know, over a year ago when we started and is part of why we started our website redesign and have definitely made accessibility a central part of the redesign. So, you know, we didn’t know that april twenty first, when google was changing that over was coming, but our site a launch next month, the new site. But in the meantime, you know those pieces where we know people are trying to visit from all different kinds of devices we have made mobile friendly, you know, from the very beginning and that’s been the case since we launched those different tools. So the conference website, you know, when your live at the mtc and you want to look up the schedule, that experience has been mobile friendly from the beginning, our community platform where people are, you know, participating in online discussions, things like that, that pathway, you know, getting an email notification that somebody replied to you and log him in and, you know, participating there that those processes are mobile friendly. Even though hitting the home page of intend that organ, at least for one more months is not all right. Well, very sensible on dh planned out. Okay, i see sam. Sam just went to the site and he’s checking the double diamond and talking alternative sites that we both passed. Sam, no talking alternative did not did not. All right, well, he’s, keeping it in perspective again. All right, set a four times already. Anything else you wanna say about this mobile friendly issue before we moved to digital currency and bitcoin? I guess the last thing that i would say is if you’re going on tio, you’re going online where and running the test. Checking out your sight know that on the google site where you’re doing these tests, they have also included some really helpful overviews of what to do, depending on what kind of site you have. So you can get tips specific to the type of website you have if you’re using droop a laure, wordpress or tumbler or you know, whatever, however your side is built, they’ve anticipated that and those questions and there are some some really easy to follow steps on you. Know potential ways to make your sight mobile friendly without having to do an entire website redesign. Excellent. Thank you, bitcoin. Now i first got introduced on while the show to bitcoin from non-profit technology conference last year twenty fourteen there were a couple of guests from canada holly, holly, wag was one and jason shimatsu, holly wagon, jason, jim and jason especially was talking a good deal about bitcoin, but it’s becoming now, and i’m probably just in the past year, it’s becoming a lot more popular. Wall street journal had an article, so you thought it made sense to talk about yeah, attention has definitely been bitcoin proponent in the end ten community and i think this year at the mtc, he and david neff and a few others had facilitated a conversation during one of the connect sessions as well. So if folks are interested in talking more theirs definitely a contingent in the end ten community that is happy to answer questions that already taking that coin as donations that they’re non-profits i’m happy to get folks connected. Is that conversations they want tohave after today? Outstanding thank you. And of course, you don’t have to. Be an intend member toe get a lot of the benefits on dh participation at intent, but you should be a member because it’s really a great value, but you don’t have to be so let’s acquaint people with bitcoin this this digital currency? Can you do that? Yes. So i think you know there’s, at least in my conversations with organizations there’s two pieces to try to conceptualize one is the actual currency bit he like what? What does that mean? Like a kind of money that i can’t put in my wallet? So that’s just how it’s going to be you know you can’t request that it turns into a money you can put in your wallet, but it is a digital currency totally operated and administered online. The the record of you know how many bitcoins honey you have versus how many i have is is part of the public record and administration of the currency online, so at any time you can go online and see what the what what it’s valued at what a single bitcoin is value that and how much bitcoin is in circulation and where the other part that i definitely hear. From organizations when we’re talking about bitcoin is how how does that translate? Like, how would we touch that as a non profit organization? And i think one way to think about it is, you know, when we when organization started accepting donations on line one one kind of action that a lot of organizations are very familiar with now was setting up a paypal account, right? So we set up that account, we connected it probably to our organization’s bank account for direct deposit and everything. And then we just put on our website that button, right that’s the button that donate by paypal that’s basically the same experience you khun offer now to people you can sign up with a bitcoin processor bit pay is probably the most prominent and it’s the same thing you’d get you set up your account so it’s connected to your bank account, because in the end you really will be getting bitcoins converted by bit pay into direct cash donations, so your end of the equation will still be that same experience where it’s cash that’s being donated and you’re sending off that email that thanks for your donation of you know x amount of dollars and here’s, our charitable information, you know, for your tax violence? Yes, it helps quite a your enough. They’re so bit pays managing. Okay, somebody on, you know and tens website click the button i you know, bit pays taking the donations of those bitcoins, converting them in there current, you know, real value into cash and putting that into our accounts. Yes. So it it’s worth having a processor so that you are dealing with u s dollars or canadian dollars or whatever your currency you might be british. Don’t imagine there’s many non-profit who want to unnecessarily be accepting bitcoin donations as bitcoin. Managing them is bitcoin and then looking for opportunities tio use that bitcoin is a currency where their pay, you know, be accepted these donations we’re keeping it as bitcoin. And then we’re changing this out and that’s for two reasons. One now you’re an organization who’s got, you know your bank account and most of your money on your financials all managed. And then over here you have this one. Probably very tiny pool of a totally different currency, which is just a difficult administration process, right? But the other part of that is that last year, the us government said bitcoin is actually considered for taxable purposes as property and not his currency, so that means you would need to be men, you know, managing and eligible to be paying a gains and all of that, you probably don’t want todo, right? Yeah, the easiest way to think about that the implication of that part of it is if you were trading in securities, it’s it’s treated luxuries like property, which is security is stocks and bonds we’re talking about, not like, like currency or cash, and you don’t want to be dealing in that and in that and having to worry about fluctuations and exactly like you just said capital gains and losses, and so, um, especially because bitcoin for organizations who are now accepting donations is bitcoin, you know what they’re actually getting in, that donation is similar to, you know, maybe other kind of alternative online donation campaigns where what you’re getting is a donation of three dollars or ten dollars, you know at a time so the idea that you would be getting all of these kind of small little chunks of bitcoin that you’re having tio account for and track and voter henschel li pai against capital gains and losses like, oh my gosh, that just sounds like work you don’t want to dio so using processor that will just convert that at that moment of donation into the cash on your end and give you that donation, you know, you send your your e mail receipt to that donor and you’re done standard process i think it’s so much more realistic we have ah, we have run out of time, so i’m just going to say this that another advantage to bitcoin is that the the processing fees are lower than credit card fees on dh, of course. Well, in many cases, there isn’t a b okay. Ah, and we’ll have ah links on the facebook page takeaways amy sample ward on twitter at amy rs ward. Thank you very much, amy, thanks so much for having me. My pleasure as always. Thank you, tony’s. Take two and volunteer issues coming up. First opportunity collaboration. This is the annual unconference in x stop a mexico. It was last october was my first time going again this october. The subject is poverty alleviation in all its different forms, and there were people working around social justice or working directly with the poor. There were people doing health and sanitation. I met people doing water projects, for instance, whatever it is that you’re doing in a poverty region to alleviate, and ideally reduce well should, say, eliminate, ideally, eliminate the poverty. Um, if it’s, if that’s the type of work that you’re doing, then opportunity, collaboration is something that i suggest you check out. Amy sample ward is going to be there actually, this year, they are at opportunity, collaboration, dot net. If you’re at work, is it all related to poverty reduction? I was honored by hermandad last night. The organization that does water projects brings fresh water, too poor parts of the dominican republic. And you were with me. You really did make it a double honor because non-profit radio listeners stepped up and i thank you very much. I’ll have details next week, after all the gifts have come in. Ah, and i’ll do the video, etcetera, but i’ll have a little more for us next week. But at this point, thank you very much. That’s tony’s, take two for friday, twenty fourth of april sixteenth show of the year. And i’m very pleased that our other west coast contributors here that’s jean takagi he’s, managing editor, managing attorney of neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and on twitter he’s at g tak e ta ke welcome back, jean. Hi, tony. Great to be back. Oh, thank you. Great to have you back. Um, we’re talking today about volunteers. There’s there could be issues that non-profits maybe overlooking and they may think just because it’s a good hearted volunteer and they’re non-profit doing good charitable work that there won’t be any legal problems. Yeah. It’s an interesting thing. I want to say that volunteers are really the life blood of many, many the vast majority of non-profit. So we really love volunteers. But we want to think about protecting our organizations and protecting our volunteers as well. So i think we at least have to consider some of the possible liabilities that might be created by the acts of volunteers. And in some circumstances, they could be considered employees. Yeah, volunteers could be considered employees if you decide you want to pay for their services. So sometimes that that seems pretty obvious. If you pay somebody there, they’re probably either an employee or an independent contractor. But a lot of people think, well, if i pay somebody who used to be a volunteer, maybe i can keep them on volunteer status. As long as i call that payment a stipend. That may not be true. It all okay. That’s. That’s? Yeah. That’s just doesn’t smell good either. No. Okay, so what are what are some of our, uh, issues as we as we drill down some of the potential liability? Well, i just think about if you if you hired a volunteer and you decided that you were going to go, you know, you had a summer camping program supervising children, and you brought in a volunteer. And that volunteer ended up doing something terrible that got one of the children hurt. Now, what type of responsibility should the non-profit have, you know, would respect protecting that child, who, whose parents decided to send them to that summer cap and trusted the vault, the non-profit teo, to protect that child. So that’s sort of just opens up the the sort of kan, if you will, or pandora’s box of all of the potential issues that might be involved with bringing in a volunteer. Okay, that’s, ah, that’s, a cool example. The the recruitment right or the or the hiring of volunteers, for instance, right? So, i mean, if you if you hired in that example, if you hired somebody that had a criminal record of sexual abuse and predatory behavior again, children, my gosh, you know, you should be held responsible for not not doing some level of screening when when allowing that an employee or volunteer teo interact and possibly supervised kids in those situations for employees, oftentimes you must screen them. You must do a background check by law. In many cases, when they’re working with children with volunteers, they might not fit under the same category in terms of the, uh, legal protections for the children. But it really is up to the non-profit to create some polish he’s to make sure that when they’re recruiting, when they’re hiring, that they’re doing so without negligence and doing so with reasonable care under the circumstances. Yeah, you’re also concerned about how much authority of volunteer has yeah, you know, so, you know, we can imagine again if we put that volunteer, and maybe we did screen that person, so there is no criminal problem in no predatory behavior. But the person has never actually worked with children before, and now all of a sudden there’s a fight between the kids or, you know, kid has an allergic reaction to food, and he doesn’t know or she doesn’t know what to do and so clearly delegating authority, providing some sort of supervision, some sort of training for that person, probably limiting their authority, especially in the beginning so that you’ve got somebody who knows what to do it in, you know, totally foreseeable circumstances when you’re working with children or when you’re working in whatever environment the volunteer is going to be working, it is really important you just don’t want to throw the volunteer out there and say, do this, and you’re on, you’re on your own, you know, in this conversation, a lot of what we’re talking about just sounds like it’s perfectly parallel with the the way you bring on ah, new employees, i think so. So the more responsibility of volunteer has and it’s close to ninety percent of all organizations that are completely run by volunteers. So that’s really a lot of non-profits that that really dependent on their volunteers and of the other? You know, ten to fifteen percent, a lot of the programmatic work is aided by the assistance of volunteers, so we’ve got to be very careful if they’re really taking on the rolls, even though they’re doing it out of the, you know, goodness of their heart if they’re taking on the rules of responsibilities, of running a program, supervising other individuals, supervising children, you know, and doing whatever work that needs to be done that you’re going to rely on is the non-profit that it’s going to be okay? You’ve got to make sure that you pick the right people and that you adequately equipped and trained them so that they could do the job they were set out to do so then also following this parallel than discipline do write an evaluation, yes, just the same way you might hyre volunteer, especially if they’re going to be working a lot of hours, or they have a lot of supervisory authority or just a lot of the individual autonomy and doing what they’re doing without a lot of direct oversight, you’re going to also hold them to your, you know, code of conduct, which is something i would recommend. That organization tack for their volunteers? Certainly a job description that’s very clear in terms of what is expected, who that person supervisor is and, you know, the statement that they must take the direction of that supervisor who’s in charge, and if they’re not following that code of honor, or if they’re in subordinate t the supervision, i think you’ve got to be ableto have some disciplinary procedures similar to an employee, but of course they’re not they don’t get the employees protection that employee’s house. So, you know, if if you feel like there’s just an unsafe or very bad environment caused by a volunteer, you have to be prepared to terminate that volunteer should there be a contract with volunteers or something that they signed that’s not legally binding as a contract? Yeah. And, um, really good showing your legal back-up sarrantonio agreement might might not be binding on a volunteer that’s entering into a contract for providing free services to the non-profit it may or may not be binding, depending upon how you phrase it, i think most non-profits don’t necessarily want it have legal, you know, lawsuits resulting from a breach of contract by a volunteer who failed to do their duties. But some sort of informal, maybe non binding agreement or memorandum of understanding for the volunteer, i think is great. So even if we call it a volunteer agreement just specifying what their duties are what’s expected of them and what type of disciplinary actions might follow if they’re unable to perform their jobs or unwilling to perform theirjob, i think all of that is a good idea. Okay, um, we’ve been talking about protecting the non-profit. How about protections for the volunteers? I mean, there is something called a volunteer protection act. Yeah, and i think for a lot of volunteers, many of them serve on the board of organizations. I know i served on a few boards, and i would like to know that i’m protected in case something i do in the scope of my duties for that organization result in a lawsuit coming and perhaps the lawsuit that that hyre where the lawsuit alleges that both the organization and the volunteer director are defendants, the volunteer director will be looking for some sort of protection in that case if here she was totally acting reasonably in the scope of their duties. But if their suit, personally, some money might have to come out from their personal countess organization doesn’t have the money to indemnify the director, even though the organization may be required to understate laws. So we’ve got this federal volunteer protection act that’s out there that says that volunteers generally aren’t liable for simple negligence if the actor within the scope of the volunteers responsibility, but that’s another good reason for having some sort of written agreement that actually spells out the volunteers responsibilities so that’s actually very clear and that would be protected for the volunteer is well, in that case, i should let you know that that limited protection is contingent on many things, and if somebody that got hurt said that the director or other volunteer was grossly negligent and simply negligent, then the volunteer at protection act may not protect that. Volunteer it all, so insurance becomes a very important thing to protect volunteers. And for the organization itself, toe have adequate insurance of for liability for directors and officers, which often cover other employees and agents and volunteers. That would be important. Finally, i think the protection that volunteers have to worry about is what if the volunteer themselves gets hurt in the scope of the duty so they’re volunteer at the summer camp, who in this case is perfectly doing a great job in his excellent is wonderful for the children, but he trips over a log on a hiking path and breaks his arm. Who pays for that? And if the non-profit is goingto, you know, have to pay for that. Dino coverage will not will not cover that, probably volunteer accident insurance at the non-profit might consider getting to protect their volunteers. In case that happens, guys, the volunteers may be personally responsible for paying their own medical costs, even though they were acting completely in the scope of the responsibilities for the non-profit the d a know that you mentioned the directors and officers insurance, you and i have talked a good bit about that when we’ve talked about board generally bored issues and protections, and we have talked about to the you just mentioned the potential for personal liability of board members as as fiduciaries to the organization, but now you were talking broader, and that could be personal liability for non board members. If volunteers are going outside the scope of their responsibilities, it sounds like yeah, so if they’re going outside of the scope of the responsibility, volunteers could certainly be held liable and non-profits or small and don’t have a lot of money and the non-profit doesn’t have any insurance. Well, then the person that got hurt might say, you know, i don’t really want to do it, but i’ve got to sue you because you’ve got the deeper pockets than this non-profit that has no money, no, you’re going to have to pay for my medical costs because you had me on this hiking trail and i tripped and it was dangerous, and i didn’t sign a waiver of liability, which may be something else we could talk about, so, you know, i’m gonna have to sue you, and you’re gonna have to pay for it and there’s no insurance to cover that, then, you know, wait, we just have a couple of minutes. Before a break, and then we’re gonna move on to ah sametz use around the sweet briar college closing, but the the volunteer does always have the possibility of just saying that they don’t want to do something, just say no, yeah, that’s sometimes got to be the best volunteer tre tek shin and the non-profits have to make sure that the volunteers feel comfortable of saying, i don’t have the skills or the background or the experience to do what you’re asking of me, so you can either train me and i could get up to speed on that or you’ve got to find somebody else. Those volunteers field pressured into doing something that they can’t handle that’s going to look really bad on the non-profit well, maybe i’m not qualified. Teo, be the range official on the shooting at the shooting range or the archery range. Yeah example, and there was a lawsuit filed where somebody was instructing on scuba diving ono instructed, and it wasn’t a certified scuba divers. Oh, no, don’t well, i was i was a lifeguard at the town pool when i was sixteen. All right, all right, i think what? Let’s, go out. A little early for our break. When we come back, jean and i, i’ll have a little more live. Listen, love domestic this time, and jean and i are going to move to the sweet briar college closing. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to retweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guest directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. If you have big dreams in a small budget tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio, i d’oh. I’m adam braun, founder of pencils of promise. Let’s do domestic live listener love and i want to give a shout out to brooklyn, new york. I feel bad that i was mean to them. Brooklyn, new york love you love you. Thank you for being with us. Woodbridge, new jersey, seattle, washington, oregon. We can’t see that i don’t know what town, but oregon is with us st louis, missouri, san francisco, california and multiple san francisco’s not only gene altum pandu jersey welcome live listener love going out to all our domestic live listeners. And then we joined a couple of a couple joined us from abroad. Denmark i am not going to offend you by attempting to pronounce the name of your city in denmark. But we see you denmark and we see loads in poland live listener love jean sweet briar college is having some trouble getting a lot of popular press because they’re closing. Andi just have, you know, like five minutes or so teo sort of summarized there’s a possibility that the court in in california may substitute its judgment for the board and determining whether sweet prior should close. Yeah, i think it’s in virginia, virginia, i’m sorry. That’s right. Sweet. Bar virginia, you’re absolutely right. Thank you. Yes, it’s, you know, woman’s college in virginia and the board decided that it’s going to close down shut down the non-profit after the summer session and they said basically, they’ve got insurmountable financial challenges. Um and, you know, boards generally have the authority where there isn’t a voting membership structures, so not a voting member ship structure like a union or a homeowner’s association, but most non-profits just are run by their boards, and when there isn’t this voting member substructure board generally have the authority to close down the organization if they think that the best way to advance the mission uh, it is to close down because other organizations just khun khun operate mohr effectively and more efficiently, and they no longer had the capacity to do so. But in this case, the a lot of, you know, teachers, faculty, duitz i’m nam and i write, you know, we’re saying this is ridiculous, you know, this is maybe just a failure of this board and this president to be able to turn this college around, um and they even convinced the county’s er attorney to file a suit on behalf. Of virginia seeking to block that closing and force the removal of the board and the president. But the judge said that, you know, the county didn’t, you know, not quite have the right to sue on charitable trust grounds, but did have the right to say that, you know, to sue at least there was no decision made on this, but did have the right to sue on violating the charitable solicitation laws, which basically say, if you’ve given money to support the advancement of the mission of the school that may be closing, the school is not in the advancement of the mission, so you can start to use money you raised recently that where were you already knew you were going to close the school and use that money to close the school so that’s basically the limited judgment that that the judge has made and now a whole bunch of other lawsuits, all looking at all these different legal theories are sort of popping up. And so this goes to the er intended purpose of the gifts no one gave to sweet briar with the intention of the money being used to close the college right? I right now that i think they’re proceeding with the closing, the board and the president, but they’re using unrestricted funds now there’s a question about even if we didn’t specify that this fund was specifically or, you know, a professor or one part of it wasn’t designated, but yeah, even argast resonated, but we don’t think you could use it to close down the non-profit now, personally, i don’t think that argument is goingto work because, again sometimes advancing the non-profits mission is not necessarily keeping it afloat if it’s just bleeding money and not doing a very good job purse during the mission, there has to be some discretion if if the board is in charge of the organization to be able to close down and i don’t know sweet briars like sort of specific governance issue’s on whether the board has really tried that, and it is somewhat problematic that they didn’t actually go out and seek some help from the alumni and students and faculties and donors and supporters about what they were doing and that they continued to generally fund-raising when they already you made the decision to close down, i think those are all problematic statement, but i do find it difficult to have a court come in and say that no, you can’t shut down the non-profit all, you have to keep operating. So you feel that the undesignated unrestricted gif ts to a non-profit really are to be used at the discretion of the board and the trustees. Yeah, but they’re held up toe a fiduciary duty, you know, to work in the best interest of the organization. And in that case, you know, really in the best interest of the organization’s mission of how well it can advance the mission and it’s interesting you you opened with the best way to advance the mission may be to close the institution. Yeah, in some cases it is and, you know, no institution lives forever, you know, every institution that we know of has some life. Okay? Okay, um, the we still have a couple of minutes left. There’s the issue of i wasn’t sure we’d have time for this, but the standing, whether whether alumni have the right to sue a college, help us understand that he has i mean, i think that would be the case of any non-profit organization do. Other people apart from the board members have the right to sue the non-profit because they feel like the non-profit isn’t doing a good job. Well, if that was the case, they would probably see the non-profit and the board members. And if that was the case, i don’t think you’ll find very many people deciding to volunteers, board members. Mmm. So some people that do have standing in this case are voting members again, you know, typically you see those in, like, labor unions, homeowner’s association’s, professional associations where members actually elect the board members and you might get the proxy notice just like a shareholder has for-profit corporation to vote for who you want on the way ported nineteen members are like shareholders and have the right to suit the organization and the board, but if they don’t have voting members, we probably don’t want people in the general public to be able to sue a non-profit because they don’t think the non-profit is doing a good job, and they may not see any of the, you know, the things that the board members see in terms of understanding what non-profit is actually going through it’s, not you. Know, they may not know anything else about the non-profit that back-up, you know that it provided the service that they want benefited from, and they don’t want it to stop. Even though we asked donors to invest in our organization, the law is not seeing them as investors, shareholders. The way, ah, shareholder, that that allex board members is seen in the law. We have to write, so they fired all the contribution that i make to a charity doesn’t give me the right to sue the charity, because i don’t like what they do. We gotta leave it there. Gene takagi, thank you so much. Managing attorney of neo and it’s, the non-profit law, blawg dot com and is at gi tak on twitter. Thank you very much, gene. Next week, we have two ntcdinosaur views, multi-channel storytelling and your disaster recovery plan, one’s, uplifting and the others potential crisis. If you’re not managing things right, if you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com, where in the world else would you go? I don’t really sing that very well. Where in the world else would you go? We’ll drop this shortly. Don’t worry, opportunity, collaboration, the world convenes for poverty reduction, it’s, an outstanding unconference it will ruin you for every other conference, really that’s, true opportunity, collaboration, dot net. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez, susan chavez, dot com and our music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe. Add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this public radio host majora carter innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expected to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for June 6, 2014: Labor Law & Advocacy And Lobbying

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Tom Wassel: Labor Law

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Attorney Thomas Wassel, partner at Cullen and Dykman, says nonprofits often make mistakes around employee versus independent contractor (it’s not enough to pay them by invoice!) and when bringing in volunteers and interns. We’ll keep you on the right side of the law. df

 

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Gene Takagi: Advocacy And Lobbying

Gene Takagi
Gene Takagi

After last week’s show, is your org allowed to tell the FCC what you think about net neutrality? How far can you go? What’s being done to clearly define what’s allowed around lobbying? Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations law group (NEO), has the answers.

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. I want to send personalized podcast pleasantries to ah at lady luck kada on twitter, she listens to us on the f train in new york city. Hello, lady licata. If you tell me where you listen, i’ll shout you out, too. I’m glad you’re with me because i’d be thrown into acquired bronchi act asis if it came within my ken that you’ve missed today’s show labor law attorney thomas wass l, a partner at cullen and dyckman, says non-profits often make mistakes around employees versus independent contractors it’s not enough to pay them buy-in voice and when bringing in volunteers and interns, we’ll keep you on the right side of the law and advocacy and lobbying after last week’s show is your organisation allowed to tell the f c c what you think about net neutrality? How far can you go and what’s being done to clearly define what’s allowed around lobbying? Jean takagi, our monthly legal contributor and principal of the non-profit and exempt organizations law group neo, has the answers on tony’s take two i am not objective on net neutrality. We’ll talk about that. We’re sponsored by generosity, siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks, i’ll have more to say about them. I’m very glad that subject of labor law for non-profit springs, tom will sell to the studio. He’s, a partner in the law firm cullen and dyckman in garden city, new york, and in new york city, he’s been advising employers on a wide range of labor and employment law matters since nineteen eighty three he is president elect of the long island, new york chapter of the labor and employment relations association. Thomas l welcome to the studio. Nice to nice to be in your studio, tony. Pleasure to see you here. I’m glad we could do it face to face. So employees versus independent contractor, it turns out, is not enough to just pay somebody buy-in voice. And then, while love they’re they’re an independent contractor. That’s absolutely enough if you want to get into trouble. But it’s not enough if you want to do it right. Okay, basically, whenever one person is performing services for another person or another company, the presumption is that there are an employee and that with everything that that entails, including federal taxes, state taxes, worker’s compensation benefits, unemployment insurance benefits, employee health benefits, things like that in order for them to be classified properly as an independent contract that there’s a number of tests that they need to meet. And if they don’t meet those tests and accompany miss classifies employees big trouble with the department of labor. Okay, we’ll talk about the misclassification ramifications, and so now we’re talking about federal and state, the the where where is this test? This test is from the i r s and then and then well, is that the eleven points is that from the irs? Absolutely. The irs the internal revenue service has an eleven point test, which is used for determining whether or not you have to take out taxes from people’s wages, okay, but every state also has its own version of the test there there pretty similar, but in terms of whether or not you need to contribute for worker’s compensation benefits or unemployment insurance benefits, and they all apply pretty much the same type of test to determine the employee status. Okay, so it sounds like you’re in pretty good shape if you’re following the irs test, which we’re going to talk about, but you still need to enquire at the state level or or you’re not because you’re not a hundred percent safe if you’re doing following just the irs. That’s, that’s absolutely true in other words, each state can have its own rules and merely complying with the federal law that that’s fine in terms of federal taxation. But certain states have have stricter rules with regard to treating people as independent contractors versus employees. So you need to see counsel in the state in which you practice. I practice in new york, so you know, my comments about any law would be limited to anything in new york state and federal law. Okay, we’ll stick with the federal with the caveat that you should check the state level, but you’re on your you’re well, on your way if you’re if you’re complying with the irs regs, i imagine, absolutely. Okay. Okay, so are we these these eleven items? Eyes is basically around the relationship between the employed, the non-profit and the person doing the work. Absolutely the key elements in the test without without trying to go over check checklist abila talk on some of them. Yeah, we’ll get to something it’s a degree of control that thie and i’m going to go. I’m going to use the term employer here, even though we may say it’s a contractual relationship, okay, but no, we’ll say or the employer of the company, the relationship between the company and the person performing the service is in an employment relationship. For example, the company tells the employees where to work, what time to show up what their duties are? Ah, and what do they report to who they’re going to supervise if they’re going to supervise anybody, things like that in a relationship like that that that tends towards the employer employee relationship as opposed to an independent contractor for an independent contractor, you basically say here’s the job, here’s here’s, what i want you to accomplish, maybe some general guidelines do it when you think it’s appropriate, although there may be deadlines set, but i’m not going to tell you how to do it. I’m not going to supervise you on a day to day basis. I’m not going to provide you with the materials to do it. You do it on your own and i’m simply going to pay you a fee, which is another important distinction there the fee basis versus an hourly or salary type basis? Okay, we’ll get to that. You you touched on something that i want to explore a little bit, the place where the work is done. So you you can’t have the person always coming to your office to perform the work now that you can’t have the person doing the work in your office. But it really that would depend on the nature of the work. For example, if if you if you have employees doing the same work and now you’re going to bring in somebody else from the outside to sit alongside your employees and do the same work? Well, that’s an indicator not not it’s, not a single point test, but it’s an indicator of an employer employee relationship. Now, if this person has his or her own business on the outside, has business cards may work from more than one company at the same time or one after another. Oh, and you’re simply hiring that outside company to perform services for a limited period of time? Well, that it tends to lean more towards the independent contractor relationship. How do we balance these eleven? Which we’ll get into some detail about some of the others too? But is it ah, like majority, if you have, if you have six out of the eleven year okay, andi it’s going to go one way or the other based on a majority? Or how does it work? Well, there is no bright line. Testa’s lawyers like to say, i think to some extent you apply the duck test if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck it’s very fact specific and a trier of fact, whether it would be through the department of labor or worker’s compensation board or in a court of law would look at all of these factors and say, well, okay, the control factor tends to lean towards employees, but the independent company factor tends to lean towards independent contractor and way all of these factors together, and then come up with an answer. Okay, so these eleven points are are the things that iris is going to consider? This is what they’re going to look at, and they’re going to put it all together and they’re going to make a decision. Absolutely. Okay? And i guess it would work similarly at the state level. Like when you mentioned department of labor. We’re talking about the state department of labor. Could be state of the state or the united states department of labor. There’s both and and they’re very interested because independent contractors aren’t entitled to overtime or minimum wage or anything like that. You you pay them a fee or you pay them. You pay a company a fee to do something and that’s. Fine. But if their employees and they work more than forty hours in a week, they’re entitled to overtime. Yeah, we may have time to get more into that. Right. Okay. Um, i think we will, actually. What are some of the other side? The other factors in these in these eleven points. But as i mentioned it’s the ah it’s. How people are paid. Yeah. That’s a good one. Sorry, let’s. Talk about that one. The fee versus fee versus salary. Right. Well, typically, an employee may get an hourly wage. May get a weekly salary. It’s generally, the relationship is often not always but often sort of open ended. That is to say, we’re going to hire you not necessarily for a two week barrier or until you finish this job, but we’re going to hire you as an employee and keep you on. But we pay you on a on a paycheck, a supposed to an independent contractor who would normally be paid through some voucher system or through through ah, obviously issuing a ten, ninety nine, which is the tax form for independent contractors and might be in a lump sum. It might be in regular payments, but it’s not based on number of hours worked or anything like that that again, depending on how you structure the deal, that would tend to lean more towards employees or more towards independent contractor. What about? I think you mentioned giving someone the tools to do the work so you shouldn’t be giving them ah, laptop tto do the work or or other things or certainly office space dedicated in the office? I mean, that’s tending to look like employment, right? When you’re giving them that stuff? Absolutely. If i say, come into my place of business and i’m going to give you everything you need to do the job and you don’t have toe put anything on the table. Other than what i give you that’s, the hallmark of an employee, as opposed to an independent contractor who brings their own knowledge, skills and tools to the table and does the job that you’re paying them to do. We’ll go out for a short break, and when we come back, tell marcel and i’m going to keep talking about this, and then we’ll get into volunteers and interns. And then i believe we will have time to for overtime. For employees, you’re supposed be paying your employees overtime. Do you maybe want to turn this off? If you’re listening in the office on monday, only the bosses want to hear this. We’ll get into all that stay with us. You getting anything shooting? Good ending, you’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving. Nothing. Cubine this’s. The way we’re hosting part of my french new york city guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back. French is coming language. Yes, they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it comes desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them. Share this story. Join us, part of my french new york city. Every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna yeah, you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna oppcoll welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Let’s, send some live listener love arco, idaho and orlando, florida live listener love to you very glad you with us let’s, go abroad. Seoul, korea anya haserot, islamabad, pakistan i’m sorry. I don’t know how to greet you in, uh in is it pasha pasha? Pashtun passion is that i’m not sure what, but live listener love to you in islamabad, irrespective of how i would say it in your in your tongue, in your language changing china, always welcoming the chinese lots of listeners. Ni hao, nagoya and tokyo, japan sending you konnichi wa and there are others will get to them kuwait also, i wanted to get to kuwait. Um attorney thomas l let’s see if you’re if you’re the person who’s doing the work, is getting their income from a bunch of different places. Is that that’s that’s? One of the factors, isn’t it that’s, clearly one of the factors, and and that would certainly militate or tend towards a finding of an independent contractor relationship kapin if you hire a company, the company may have its own letterhead may have its own invoices. May have its own business cards may have an ad in the yellow pages for those of us who still actually use paper yellow pages or maybe a gn internet list thing nowadays. So if you hold yourself out as an independent company and maybe even filed company tax returns on have a company workers compensation policy, things like that that again would lean towards the independent contractor relationship rather than employees. If you are ah found by the irs to have misclassified people doing the work, would you expect that the irs is going to report to your state department of labor that that they’ve found ah, misclassification, that’s, that’s a really good question, and i get asked that those kinds of questions a lot from lots of different employers, i tend to represent employers, and my understanding is no, they don’t necessarily do that. That particularly if you settle the case, the words that come to you and say you messed up, you need to pay x amount, and if you settle it voluntarily, they’re not going to go broadcasting it to the world so that there could be more agencies to come and knock on your door. Because that would discourage you from settling in the first place that’s not to say that other agencies won’t find out about it. And certainly if ah, if a case republic if if you would have to go to court, which is a public record and other agencies saw that they could be knocking on your door as well, where do you see employers messing up? Well, it’s again, it’s the any of any of these factors will any or any role these factors? I have clients, and obviously i’m not going to mention names uh, i brought you for, so i did some provocative name dropping, i thought i’d like to keep practising law for a few more. Alright, alright, you’re not retired, they you know, i have i have clients that have they’ll bring people in and they treat them as independent contractors and they say, well, they’re only going to be here for two months. I’m hiring them for a special project and i say yes, hiring see, that was the keyword there on, and it doesn’t matter if you’re hyre it is a temporary employee or a permanent employee that’s one factor, but not not controlling. Temporary employees, their employees, so you have to treat them as contractors, and i’ve had a number of audits fromthe state workers compensation, border unemployment, insurance division come in and say you’re not paying premiums to these people cause you’re not treating them as employees. Pay up. What? What are the penalties let’s talk about the federal level? What would you expect from the irs if ur misclassifying well again? In most cases, if if you own up to the to the mistake, you’ll certainly have to pay what’s owed but safe for the i r s not only will you have to pay what the employers share of the taxes, would it really be? You may also have to pay the employees share of the tactics so security taxes that should have been paid exactly pay both the employer and the employee because the employer messes up, the irs isn’t going to go to the employees and say, by the way, some of that money you got, we want you to give some of it back. It’s, the employer’s responsibility to properly pay the employees. Okay, so the back taxes that were owed, what else? What else might be? Expected? Well, there there could be civil penalties involved to or if it was done knowingly over a long period of time, with no knowing that you were violating the law usually second or third offenders, there could be some more severe penalties involved as well. You’re always welcome teo disagree with young arrests, right on contest there, their belief that you’re misclassifying absolutely, you know, just just cause the irs says so doesn’t make it so. But the presumption is that these people are employees, right, and it’s up to the employer to prove based on the law that these people are actually independent contractors. So if you if you want to fight them, you better have a pretty good case. Let’s move teo volunteers and interns what? What are what are non-profits often getting wrong around these? Well, the good news for not for not-for-profits we call them not-for-profits in new york, but non-profits same, the good news for non-profits is that you’re allowed tohave volunteers in the in the in the in the for-profit sector, you basically can’t have volunteers. Anybody who does work for you has to be paid, but in the in the nonprofit sector you can’t have volunteers, but there are some rules about that as well. The work that’s being volunteered for can’t be the same kind of work that’s otherwise being done. In other words, you can’t have a paid clerical person sitting at a desk and then have somebody else come in and say, well, i’m going to volunteer and i’m going to do the same work sitting side by side the paid pearl really? All right, so let’s, let’s taken example of that suppose closed. You have employees that are preparing mailings. You’ve got a five thousand piece mailing going out and you don’t hyre ah, male house, you’re doing it inside and you’ve got people stuffing in printing, stuffing envelopes, putting stamps on and then you bring some volunteers in to do that same work side by side with employees. That’s that’s, not a volunteer. I’d be very concerned about that. If i was the employer and i if i was their attorney, i would be tell saying we need to take a long, hard look at this because again, people sitting side by side, some people are being paid. Some people are, quote unquote volunteering very dangerous situation. Even if the volunteers volunteered, i mean, even if they walked in and they love the mission, they’ve said, i want to help you. How can i help? And you said, well, we could use ten hours on, you know, over the weekend to put this mailing together well not-for-profits tend to be generally charitable, religious or religious organizations and the servant public purpose and that’s why they’re allowed tohave volunteers to some extent, but to the extent that you’re basically just doing the same work as other employees and saying, i don’t want to get paid for it, the law doesn’t really sanction such things. Oh, my, okay, i got to take a little tension because you mentioned for-profit companies, and i’m interested in that on the intern side. What about all the unpaid internships that are coming right now? It’s, it’s, summertime, what about those? Well, and you read about them all the time in the paper about the irs or the part you read about them in the new york journal? Maybe i don’t not seeing it in the where i’m seeing in popular mohr maur, general press well, you get for-profit are allowed to have interns. But not that you can’t just but but i had on somebody and say, hi, you’re an intern, you’re gonna work for me and you’re not going to get paid. That would be violating the minimum wage laws for, among other things, but somebody can provide an internship if under certain circumstances, if they’re getting some sort of academic credit from an outside institution, if they are getting some sort of actual training from you that’s not specifically tailored to your organisation, but but taylor to their field of study, if they understand from the outset that they’re not going to get paid and that’s an internship also, it has to be a relationship where i understand from the outset otherwise it’s indentured servitude you tell them you’re going to get paid and then they don’t they don’t see a paycheck. That’s ah there’s got okay, that’s clearly got to be rolled. Believe it or not, that’s that’s what i passed that spelled out there, they have to understand that somebody’s done it? Yeah, all right, on and also they’re supposed to actually because they’re an intern and learning from you they’re supposed to be, if, if anything, and impediments. To the business not, ah bonus to the business. In other words, if the business says we’re going to hyre fifty interns to do all sorts of work for us and make money for us that’s not really a bona fide internship, the purpose of the internship, the primary purpose is to give training to the intern, not to make money for the company. And if it’s really a benefit to the company that’s one of the factors that will be looked at to say these air, not truly interns. Okay, thank you for taking little digression in tow. For-profit i love it, you know, you have these answers on top, your head man xero no notes, which i admire, i don’t like i don’t like notes, really? I have notes, but it is just off the top percent wonderful. I’ve been doing it for thirty plus years. I know you start to learn it if that helps. Yeah, yeah. So let’s go back to the non-profit side there are so the general rule is that you can’t have unpaid work as volunteers. But then there are these exceptions that we were starting to get into, right if it’s a bona fide organization, charitable organization and people are truly coming and say, i want to lend a hand to do you were having were having a blood drive or we’re having a special event, and i’m a community member. I’m going to come in and volunteer to give some of my time to help you that’s a true volunteer, but again, if if they’re volunteering simply to do work that the company not-for-profits would otherwise be paying for that’s a problem, employees of the not-for-profits basically can’t volunteer to give away free work. That’s interesting. I wonder if that comes up much. I don’t know. Well, if you see it well, i haven’t seen it, but it’s addressed in a number of decisions or regulations where somebody’s tried it. Yeah, obviously what’s in there? Yeah, right. That’s. Interesting. Okay, if you haven’t, i’d say you have an employee working for not for profit and and and there’s some child care, you’re going to sit with some child kind of thing. Simple. I don’t want to use the term baby sitting because that sounds majority, but some sort of ah monitoring situation, which is not within the normal scope of that. Employees work that might be okay for a volunteer for the employees, but certainly the employees can volunteer to do additional work that employees already getting paid for. And where do you see non-profits making mistakes around the volunteer and in turn, well, i get calls from from some of my not non-profits and so, you know, we’ve got we’ve got all these people are in here and, you know, they’re here for, you know, ten or fifteen hours a week doing all this stuff, and i say, really what’s your first question, what were some? Of course? Well, i say, well, what are they doing? Do you have other people that you’re paying to do the same work? And they’re working side by side are there are these people already employed by you? Because if they are that’s major red flag onda geun, if they’re duplicating or substituting their substituting for paid employees, that’s, that’s a problem? We’ve got somebody who’s out on a totally leave elearning leave a family medical leave act type of leave, so they’re gonna be out for twelve weeks. So we’re gonna have a volunteer fill in for twelve weeks, okay? Do you have? A sound of a klaxon in here or, you know, piela only like that. But that’s just my voice is all we have is scary enough. Thrill enough weak enough as it is. That’s very bad. So paternity leave maternity leave. You can’t have a volunteer filling in you’re basically saying, i’m going to have somebody do the same work as a paid employee, but i’m not going to pay them no lost don’t let you do that. All right? I think that’s very interesting. All right, so what do we do, teo, to remedy this. So when your clients are then calling and there, then finding out in this call that they’re they’re running afoul, what do we do next? Well, i tell them aside, i’m obligated to do as an attorney. You should change this, and you should start treating people correctly going forward because every day that you’re in violation of the labor laws or the or the tax code is ah, is a new problem. If you change things today or tomorrow and start treating people properly, pay them, then you don’t really have a problem. And by the way, all you have to do to comply with most laws is pay minimum wage and you know you don’t. You could have people have clerical people making fifteen dollars an hour. I need somebody to fill in, and i’m just going to pay the minimum wage. You can do that, you just can’t pay him nothing. You can’t have them volunteer if they’re not truly bona fide volunteers, can you work out some alternate form of compensation besides, besides money? Like maybe they get some benefits of services from the organization i get sort of a barter arrangements. What i’m thinking of is that is that possible barter arrangements are legal, but their taxable i don’t represent any barter companies, but i happen to have a close friend who’s involved in a bartering company, and i know that when party a’s trading goods or services with party be, both sides are issued ten, ninety nines and and the company, the bartering company, will report that to the irs. So if you just say instead of paying you seven twenty five an hour, which is the federal minimum wage, it’s hyre in new york state and a lot of other states, but but instead of paying you seven twenty five an hour for forty hours, which is with two, two hundred ninety eight dollars a week. I’m going to give you two hundred ninety dollars worth of free food, that’s that’s a taxable event and frankly, it doesn’t comply with the law. The fair labor standards act, which is the federal law that requires people get paid, requires that you get paid in cash or the equivalent of cash, not in goods and services they’re certain deductions allowed, but not completely excellent. Now we’re talking about federal and state law here, a cz well around the volunteers and interns. Absolutely okay, um, so we’re talking mostly federal, but with the same qualification you need to check about check what the standards are in in your state are you? Are you still pretty well on your way to compliance? If you’re if you’re complying with what the irs requires? Like like we said over on the independent contractor side e, i would say, you know, qualified lee, if that’s a word, if you’re complying with the federal rules, you are more than likely qualita complying with state rules, but i certainly can’t give that as a guarantee without taking a look at the state rules understand, okay, let’s, spend a little a little time. We’re just a couple more minutes on overtime for employees. What is the problem here that you see? Big problem is that certain employees aren’t being paid overtime because employers think they don’t have to. And the biggest fallacy, the biggest myth that i see is and and employers and employees both believed this is that if you’re paid a salary, you don’t get overtime that’s not true, you need to be paid a salary in order to be considered exempt from overtime. But on lee, certain employees performing certain duties are exempt from overtime the main ones. I don’t talk about those one of those executives, administrators or administrative xero and professionals, so if you’re ah not for-profit ifyou’re ah, counselor, a psychologist, psychiatrist, a professional you’re not in your pay and you’re paid on a salary you’re not entitled to overtime, but you may be a highly highly paid administrative person who works closely with management. You may be exempt from overtime, but if you are a lower levels let’s, say a clerical person lower simply on the orc chart, not in terms of your worth, but and you’re you don’t have a lot of discretion and control doesn’t matter if you paid on a salary you’re entitled to overtime. If you work more than forty hours in a work week and that’s not waivable, you can’t agree not to take it. You can’t enter into a contract dipped in blood notarized doesn’t matter. You have to get paid for all hours worked at time and a half and not less than time and a half. Pay attention to the labor law. Thomas l partner in the law firm of cullen c u l l e n and die kayman d y k m a n in garden city, new york and also in new york city. Thomas l thank you very, very much to in my pleasure mine as well. We are sponsored by generosity siri’s you’ve heard me talk about them because they host multi charity five k runs and walks, and the reason for talking to them would be if you are planning such an event as part of your fund-raising mix and another reason would be that i would be grateful because they are sponsoring the show, so if you think about that in your fund-raising, please consider generosity siri’s you can pick up the phone and talk to the ceo dave lynn. They’re at seven one eight five o six, nine triple seven you know they’re on the web as well, of course, generosity, siri’s dot com but i like the phone. They have events coming up in new jersey, miami, atlanta, new york city, philadelphia and toronto. Please check them out generosity, siri’s net neutrality, something i am not at all neutral on amy sample ward and i talked about this last week, and it bothers me that we could end up with two internet one for those internet service providers and people and non-profits who can afford to pay for fast lane service and one with slower service for everybody else. Amy and i talked about the implications of this for the way you do your work day today because so much is in the cloud and also for the people who you’re serving, who may very well need the internet to access your services. You can tell the f c c, the federal communications commission what you think about it at deer fcc dot or ge. Earlier this week, the fcc site crashed. I think that was monday because there were so many comments, but it was back-up very quickly and my video on the subject is at tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, sixth of june twenty third show of this year before we bring in jean i want to do a little more live listener love fellmeth, mass, san francisco, california that maybe gene beijing china gun po korea and kyoto, japan. In that order, the how i couldn’t on your haserot and konnichi wa. Now to continue this conversation about how far you can go in advocacy and lobbying we brought in jean takagi you know him he’s, our regular contributor on legal matters. He’s managing attorney of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He and it’s the popular non-profit law blogged dot com which i go too often and he is at gi tak e ta ke on twitter jing takagi, welcome back. Thanks so much, honey, how are you? I’m doing great. Thank you, it’s. Good to talk to you. I always enjoy it on. We want to follow. Up on a conversation that amy sample warden i had last week on about the subject of net neutrality and just how far non-profits can go in in advocacy and lobbying first, let’s distinguish between advocacy and lobbying. Sure, and i think tony there’s, a big difference between advocacy and lobbying and advocacy really embodies lobbying and so much more than lobbying. So i think i’ll start by talking about lobbying in general, which is attempting to influence legislation and legislation is generally in action by some legislative body to make law. So when you’ve got legislation, that’s and we wantto influence that by contacting our legislators that’s lobbying. But if we’re advocating on public policy whether it be on net neutrality in general or we’re talking about, you know, the global warming or fair wages we’re talking about general issues and not specific law, their specific bills in front of a legislative body and all of that stuff non-profit or charitable non-profits khun do without limitation if it’s an advancement of their mission. So i really want to encourage non-profits tio let them know that they can engaged in a tremendous amount of that cassie without looking at the lobbying restrictions and also remind them that actually for most public cherries, the bath majority public charities, they could do a heck of a lot of lobbying as well. Okay, we’re gonna go into sales. No insects, no substantial lobbying. But you could do a lot. Yeah. We’re going to go into details. I know you got some. You have some tests, attorneys. You guys love these tests. It was a test which helps i think they do help. It’s just funny. That is always test. Now. Tony martignetti non-profit radio were a little loose with the word non-profit and i think for our purposes, jean, we need to break down charity versus a non versus the more general non-profit i four years ago, i did not want to call the show tony martignetti charity radio, but i think that for our purposes, i think we need to make that distinction. Can you help me? Yeah. And they’re all sorts of non-profits and charitable non-profits are certainly the most prevalent form of non-profit organizations, but there’s, you know, well, over half a million other types of non-profit organizations out there as well. Um, i’ll use some classification hopefully don’t go. Into jargon jailed for them but five oh one c three riposte to the charitable type organizations and their tax exempt under five a one c three of the internal revenue code. But we’ve got bible onesie for that social welfare organizations that can lobby all they want. And they sort of purse to public interest goals as well. And they include things or organizations like the sierra club, aarp, the n r a greenpeace, and in organizations of of that nature, their advocacy organizations. And they can lobby again all they want. And they can even do some endorsements of political candidates. We’ve got five one five unions, five a onesie, six trade associations, professional associations and chambers of commerce and five on twenty seven social clubs. And they’re probably another thirty two, thirty five categories of tax exempt organizations out there. Somewhere in there is the non-profit cemetery. I think that’s the last one listed. Yeah, under five. Five o one see something. Whatever the last one is, i think it’s i think it’s non-profit cemeteries, they just want to wrap up with the death. I guess so. All right, so all these other non-profits are not charitable. Write the only charitable is five o one c three yet the only one that we refer to as a charitable organization are the five oh one see threes, and those are the ones that are eligible to receive deductible contributions from donors, right? And a lot of the other types of organizations, like the ones you mentioned, sierra club and our etcetera, they will often have five o one c three charitable. I’m going to call them the non legal term arms or so that they can raise money to support charitable that can raise charitable dollars to support there. Bob being an advocacy is that do i have that right? Yeah, kind of. So they have hoexter organizations rather than arms. If i’ll say so, they’re completely separate corporations, but they’re using some sort of relationship between their boards of directors and so there will be affiliate or tandem. Five twenty three charitable organizations with cassie for social welfare advocacy type organizations or c six trade associations happens all the time. Okay. Wanna make that clear? That that that that’s how there, that’s how the money is being raised for the the non five oh one. See three’s. Okay, so there’s a lot that we can do around advocacy because around net neutrality or do you mention global warming? The the economy as long as we’re not? Is it referring to specific legislation in our advocacy? Well, much of our advocacy, if it’s not referring to any specific legislation directly or indirectly, may just be done by charity charities and charitable organizations without limitation and that’s kind of a nice thing, but i mentioned that legislation it is actions by legislative bodies and not administrative agencies, if all you know, add that and the fcc, which is the federal communications commission, is an administrative agency in part of the executive branch of the federal government it’s not part of the legislative branch. So when they make rules and we wantto advocate to change those rules, have them proposed new rules that’s not loving at all that’s advocacy and then that’s why i said that because he could be much, much more broader than lobbying and in the case of net neutrality, which i’m with you on this, i’m not neutral on this issue, and i don’t think most non-profits want to be neutral at all on this issue. As well. I think that advocating on behalf of these proposed rules is really important, right and wide open because it’s not legislation, right? The extent that you think it’s going further your mission, or protect your ability to do your mission to not be relegated to the slow lane or the fcc is putting it there’s a fast lane and a faster lane. And john oliver, in his very highly publicized video that helped crash the fcc servers that you mentioned, um, in his video, just called b s on that i agree with him as well. So if you’re going to be relegated to the slow lane and that’s going to affect your mission, you have every reason to get up and make this comment, which could do very, very easily on that site that you mentioned. Now i’m going to put you in georgian jail for b s jean what exactly did you work? You’re going to say but what exactly is b s jean? I also know that i understand. Go ahead. Okay. That’s. Just plain bullshit. Thank you, jean. I love having fingers. That’s. All right. That’s what i love. Thank you. You’re out of jargon jail instantly. Let’s. Go to the bar. You’re blushing. So safe. Listen, i don’t know where did your mom, your mom, live in orlando, florida? Or arco, idaho? Because if not, then she’s not list. Oh, found with mass. If not, then she’s not listening right now. Okay, then i may be well, there may be others, too. All right. Okay. Let’s, move to the lobbying side where we have these. Have a test for how much lobbying we can do as a five. Oh, one c three charitable organization. Yeah. So there to test on on how to measure lobbying for five, twenty three public charities. And the first test is kind of the default test that you don’t do anything. It’s called the insubstantial part test and it’s a tough one. Because if you look at all the facts and circumstances and the charity’s not allowed to engage in substantial lodging and that’s pretty great. You know what lawyers say is there’s this like old case from the fifties that said about five percent of your budget spent on lobbying was not substantial. So that’s kind of our own only guidance there if you spend five percent of your budget or resource is on lobbying and you fall under this default test. Then you know, you may be breaching the substantial limit if you go about five percent, so for the vast majority of charitable organizations and i’m going to say for any charity that qualified there’s, some that don’t qualify like churches. But granny church charity that qualifies with a budget under let’s say thirty million a year, tony, that embody most of the charities that ninety nine point five percent? I’m sure. Yes, yeah. So any any charity enter a thirty million dollars annual budget should make the fei bo won h election and it’s a half page form from the irs? It’s super easy, its name, address, check a box, and what that does is it makes it so much easier. It’s not all the facts and circumstances it just says you can’t engage in substantial lobbying as measured on ly by your expenditures by the dollars spent so you can rally all your volunteers and spend one hundred percent of your volunteer time lobbying on various issues and again lobbying meaning influencing legislation, actions by legislative bodies you consent all your volunteers to do that without limitation, and it doesn’t even count as any sort of lobbying for your lobbying limit purposes. Of course, their only volunteers if you’re not paying people to do that work a cz well, side by side with these purported volunteers, right? We know that. Yeah, i know that tom was self you were listening to. Tom will sell. I was listeningto the last half of it. Okay, well, i don’t know if you heard them, but to make sure that you’ve got the right volunteers actually fallen. Real volunteers. Okay, not uncompensated. What should have been classified as employees. Exactly. Right. All right. So the five oh, i know i’m usually you qualify things beautifully, but i didn’t mean to forced you into that confession. All right, so this five oh, one h election. I assume. That’s an internal revenue code. Section five. Oh, one h. And what is the simple irs form that you think? Almost all non-profits elle charity should fill out. It’s formed fifty seven. Sixty eight and you could do it any time during the year, even december thirty first, and it would count for that year. So it’s, a really simple form. It doesn’t create additional scrutiny for the organisation it makes measuring lobbying much more easy and the big point i wanted to make it that you’re lobbying limitation under five oh, one age expenditures is twenty percent of your first five hundred thousand dollars in in what will call exempt purpose expenditures our mission related expenditures twenty percent not the five percent that we’ve sort of guided people by under the other tests twenty percent of the first five hundred thousand fifteen of the next five hundred ten of the next up to one million dollars. Kapin and that that’s a pretty generous limit, and this doesn’t count any volunteer time lobbying, and it doesn’t count any of your advocacy efforts around let’s say, net neutrality and commenting to the fcc, which is not lobbying it all right, none of that none of that applies to this what we’re talking about now. That’s, that’s not lobbying. Okay, twenty twenty percent of your first half a million, and then how does it decline after that? The percentage fifteen percent of the next half million, ten percent of the next five percent of the next, and it capped at a million dollars. Told lobbying that’s, a lot of lobbying you could do for a million dollars and the list. You have that where they don’t need to be so scared. Yeah, okay, um, let’s, go out for a break. And when we come back, we’re going to keep talking about about this a little bit. And then we’re going to talk about this the bright lines project, which is intended to help these these gray areas, will stay with me and gene. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. If you have big ideas but an average budget, tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio for ideas you can use. I do. I’m dr. Robert penna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Welcome back. I get a sense of more live listener love. I love it. Decatur, georgia and delhi, india someone’s here suggested i say hello, deli i won’t say who that was. I thinkit’s that’s fun. Okay, it would be indiscreet of me to say who it was. Tom myself, delhi, india live listener love going out to you. I gotta send podcast pleasantries to all our listeners in germany. We got a lot of listeners from the podcast site podcast dot d to all our german podcast listeners couldn’t talk. Okay, jean takagi in san francisco, you have some other things that are like we can talk directly to legislators and and staffs about things and it’s and it’s not considered lobbying. Yeah, if we’re not talking about a specific piece of legislation and we’re talking about issues in general that affect the public that’s that’s not lobbying either. So we wanted to talk to members of congress and said, and open internet is really just an important thing for organizations, and we could get drowned out if we have this to lane highway, maybe we should treat the internet kind of like a public utility. And that might be going a little bit further towards some sort of legislation, but, you know, just in general, if we wanted to talk that way that i would not be lobbing either, so we can put that in the letter we can do an email way can have that conversation anyway. It’s not lobbying, and that includes legislative staff right now, we can talk with legislative staff as well. Sometimes we can’t directly, you know, contact our congress person, but we might be able to get a connection with one of their staff members on dh let them know what their constituents are thinking about this really, really important issues. How about research if we wanted to a research project on an issue? Yeah, you know, if we do it in a nonpartisan matter-ness and we make it available not just to one party or the other one candidate or the other and it’s a full and fair, what we’ll call exposition of the underlying facts has got to be objective doesn’t encourage the recipient to take action, but just informed them of what the issues are and how important it is. Teo address those issues in a reasonable manner that’s going to be fine as well. There is in a project the bright lines project teo to help clear the clear. The muddy waters around lobbying. And they’ve been around for about four years. What can you acquaint us with them more? Sure. They’ve actually been around since two thousand eight and six years. Oh, and just isn’t aside. I’ve been to the hello deli in new york with rupert g had. Sorry. I digress. There. Hello, deli. Where is that? Where? There’s a hello. Deli in new york. Yeah. It’s just around the corner. Rupert g the owners on late night with david letterman regularly and his his delhi is just around the corner from from the letterman theater with the sullivan theater where they do letterman. Okay. All right. That’s, a broadway and fifty six, i think, roughly is the theater is okay. There you go. Thank you. Head. So that’s it. That’s it that’s it. We’re going to wrap it up right there. We’re done valuable public now, more important than the great value for the listening audience. Gino, you know, people are gonna want to have you back next month. Now go ahead. Acquaint us with the bright lines project since two thousand. But i mean the bright line project what it’s done is really to address not just lobbying, but more towards the other types of political activities that organizations charities may engage in, including voter registrations, voter engagement, you know, comparing information amongst candidates in a non partisan manner to educate the voters on those things. Get out the vote drive on things of that nature as well. And the problem right now are that the rules are all kind of facts and circumstances. Rules where the irs looks at everything, but doesn’t provide very much guidance to charities about well, is this okay? Is that okay? Or where do i cross the line? An enforcement of those rules amongst irs agents is also really uneven on dh that’s, you know, partly what may have led to the big. I’ll call it a scandal, if you will, about screening for tea party applications that the tax exemptions that we saw last year. And, you know, with all of this confusion amongst not only the public and organizations but the irs self about howto apply these very, very vague rules, but the bright lines project this thing well, let’s, get some real rules that create some clear, objective standards, so we don’t have to rely on facts and circumstances in what every particular agent or what every particular organization thinks the relevant facts and circumstances are. This is a first amendment issue, isn’t it around speech? Well, it partly and partly deals with that, and it partly comes off of the citizens united case back in two thousand ten, although the bright lines project originated earlier because we had this problem earlier, but yeah, part part of it has to do with free speech and but part of it that just has to do with yes, you you know, the legislator can create laws around what it takes to maintain charitable status and tax exemption under five, twenty three, and we understand that there’s no political intervention allowed the political intervention is used in so many other contexts throughout the internal revenue code as applicable to other tax exempt organizations and for various reasons, including imposing taxes and there’s a different definition every time, and it just is immensely confusing lawyers don’t understand it. The irs doesn’t understand it. The courts don’t understand it, we need some clear rules and all this confusion is just going to lead people to stifle their own opinion. Yeah, leads what happens is the small guy on the small organization stifle their opinions because they’ve got to be conservative and protective of being able to advance their missions, the big guys, the big lobbying organizations or the dark money. So where donors can hide themselves by using five a onesie for five, twenty six organisations to shield that they’re supporting a particular candidates can hide themselves in this andi and use the law to their benefit. So we want to make sure that everything is transparent and open out there on dh that’s part of the reason we have the bright lines project as well. I’m not part of that group, but i’m definitely a supporter now. I arrest has made some efforts teo, to improve the rules, right? Yeah, the the irs has has taken a first shot at this on dh. You know, there were sixty nine thousand comments within, like, a couple of weeks after the fcc regulations for a proposed rule making on the net the trial of the issue, they’re over one hundred fifty. Thousand comments on when the iraq proposed new rules about political activities and five a onesie for social welfare organizations. I mentioned those before, like the sierra club, aarp and are a bacon engage in unlimited lobbying, but they do it for a public or social welfare purpose. Andi can engage in some election hearing as long as that’s not their primary activity, and some of them push it all the way up to forty nine percent of their budget being spent on election nearing, you know, getting candidates elected, and so the i r s is trying to improve things for us. They’re trying to yeah, they’re trying to figure out what the rules bar, but again they’re using different rules for five a one c four’s and five a onesie threes, and then it just muddies the water of well, you’re using similar terms, but they have different meanings. How do we interpret all of this? And if we create a big shield just that applies to five one fourth, the dark money will move the bible onesie, sixes or other other types of tax exempt organizations, so it doesn’t really plugged the hole very well and it doesn’t allow for things like non partisan election related activities that five one six weeks have been allowed to do for years and years and years without a problem. So it it muddies the waters greatly and that’s why the irs is actually rewriting the rules in total, and they’ve decided not to have any hearings based on their old rules because with one hundred fifty thousand comments, you can see that there was some distaste of what they first came out with. And i get the good process gene just very quickly. Where will we find the bright lines project? I think it’s a bright lines project dot org’s on bits that at citizen dot org’s is the host of the organization citizen dot org’s. Yeah, that’s public citizen’s website. Okay, we have to leave it there. Jim takagi, our monthly contributor on the law managing attorney of neo. You’ll find hizb blawg at non-profit law block dot com and you’ll find him on twitter at g tech. Thank you very, very much, gene. Thanks. Have a great day. My pleasure. Thank you. Next week i’ll have something from ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference and maria simple is back to talk about the right to be forgotten and its implications for your prospect research. If you missed any part of today’s show, you’ll find it on tony martignetti dot com. Remember that we are sponsored by generosity, siri’s, generosity, siri’s, dot com, our creative producer, declare meyerhoff sam lever, which is our line producer, shows social media, is by julia campbell of jake campbell. Social marketing. Remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of new rules of an independent contractor. Our music is by scott stein from brooklyn. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You don’t know anything, including getting victims. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Get in. Nothing. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 2, 2013: Out Of The Blue: Fermentation Fascination & Volunteer Matchmaking

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Sandor Katz
Sandor Katz: Out Of The Blue: Fermentation Fascination

A new feature. We’re going to bring in people who have unusual and interesting jobs but in some way support nonprofits. Our inaugural Out Of The Blue guest is Sandor Katz. He’s a fermenter. He calls himself Sandor Kraut. We’ll talk about the history, benefits and methods of fermenting foods. He’ll share his simple sauerkraut recipe.

 

Scott Koegler
Scott Koegler: Volunteer Matchmaking

Scott Koegler is our technology contributor and editor of Nonprofit Technology News. This month we’re talking about tech that matches willing volunteers with seeking charities.

 

 


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Metoo hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i hope you’re with me last week why i would suffer atrial fib relation if it came to my attention that you had missed the event leadership puzzle from fund-raising day twenty thirteen our panel solved the puzzle for honorees, chairs, hosts and committees, from goal setting and recruitment to motivation and thanks and back to board basics. Jean takagi are legal contributor was here he talked about who belongs on your board and for how long should you ceo be on the board? Is it okay if your ceo chairs? What about vendors? Jeanne and i differed on vendors actually show, so i shut off his mike he’s, the principal of non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco, and we’re going to continue that conversation in a couple of weeks very shortly this week out of the blue fermentation fascination. This is a brand new feature this week we’re going to bring in people who have unusual and interesting jobs and in some ways support non-profits and our inaugural out of the blue guest. Is sand or cats he’s a fermenter? He calls himself sandorkraut we’re going to talk about the history, the benefits and the methods of fermenting foods, and sandra is going to share his simple sauerkraut recipe cool and volunteermatch making scott koegler is our monthly technology contributor and the editor of non-profit technology news this month, we’re talking about tech that matches willing volunteers with seeking charities between the guests on tony’s take to my non-profit bootcamp interview. I’m really excited, teo introduce our first out of the blue guest sandor alex katz is a fermentation revivalist. Newsweek called his first book, wild fermentation the fermenting bible. The new york times said that he has become for fermentation with timothy leary was for psychedelic drugs a charismatic we’ll see about that, i hope so. Consciousness raising thinker and advocate who wants people to see the world in a new way. End quote his latest book, the art of fermentation, received a james beard award and you’ll find him in rural tennessee as well as wild fermentation dot com sandorkraut its welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on tony it’s good it’s a real pleasure. I’m really you know. People say i’m excited to introduce, but i am excited because you’re our first out of the blue guest and i think fermentation is a fascinating thing. We’re going to learn a lot more about it, so i am excited that you’re on show. Thanks for being here. Thanks. Metoo um, how did you get into fermentation send or? Well, let’s see, i grew up, i grew up in new york city and, you know, for reasons i couldn’t possibly explain one of my favorite foods is a kid with some sour pickles, garlic, dill, fermented pickles. So i’ve i’ve always been drawn, teo, you know, some of the flavors of fermentation, but what really got me to begin practicing fermentation is twenty years ago when i moved from new york city to rural tennessee and started keeping a garden, you know, there was just a moment when there was a whole row of cabbages, and i decided to learn how to make sauerkraut, you know, really with based on this sort of practical dilemma, what do i do with all these veggies that are ready at the same time? Um, and then, you know, you know, one thing led to another, i started exploring all sorts of realms of fermentation started making yogurt in a little bit of cheese. I started doing some, uh, bread making using a sour dough, i started making wine sort of elderberries and blueberries and other kinds of berries and, you know, i just, uh i just got kind of obsessed with fermentation and, you know, spend a decade indulging that obsession and learning, learning about it, um and, you know, really everybody lives fermented foods and beverages cool, and if you walk into a gourmet food store, most of what you see are products of fermentation, and they’re just part of people’s lives in all parts of the world in lots of ways that i think we don’t recognize. The other reason that i’m excited today is because our creative producer, claire meyerhoff, is in the studio with me from north carolina. Hi, claire. Welcome. Hi, tony, how are you today, it’s a party it’s a privilege to have you? So i’m excited that sanders are first out of the blue guest, and i’m excited that a long time creative producer from the beginning, this is not this is not new krauz meyerhoff is with me in studio help tony with his very first show that’s very true helped him ferment the show very good. So it has come. Yeah, you have a question for science. You have a question for you in your first remarks. You you said something about that you started practicing fermenting and that caught my attention because it’s like saying you practice yoga, you don’t do yoga, you practise it. So tell me a little bit about the fermenting. What i mean by that is that, you know, for my entire life since i’ve been, you know, eating food, i’ve been eating products of fermentation, and everybody does. You couldn’t possibly not. If you eat bread, you’re you’re eating something that’s fermented. If you’re eating cheese, hearing something that’s fermented um, you know, if you’re putting any kind of condiment on your sandwich well, that’s based on something that’s, fermented vinegar if it’s not directly fermented, self like soy sauce or or fish sauce. But you know, really, what i’m saying is that, you know, fermentation is everywhere everybody eats products of fermentation every day until seventy five years ago, it was just part of what people did. In every community it was part of producing food was was fermenting some of it. But as food production has, you know, disappeared from the fabric of our lives in fermentation has disappeared with it. But at the same time we’ve developed this fear of bacteria, so people assumed that, you know, fermentation is, you know, potentially dangerous or highly technical. So so for me, that’s the significant thing there that’s the moment that that significant in my story is when i began a practice of fermentation doing it for myself. Well, there is a bit of a meditative quality to it because you have to let it let it sit. And you have to kind of think about it. It doesn’t happen right away. It’s. Not like stir frying. Exactly. Exactly. There’s there’s. Always a time component. Joes have tto wait. Whether it’s a few hours, a few days, a few weeks or in certain cases a few years fermentation. Can i get a word in claire? I don’t know. You brought me into the studio, you know, you get what you wish for. I got screwed. Fermentation goes back. There’s there’s. Records of fermentation in our inn in archaeology, right? We’re going back thousands of years. Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, the earliest archaeological evidence that we currently have goes back nine thousand years. But, you know, of course, you know, foods and microorganisms, you know, don’t don’t leave lots of trace is it’s sort of the pottery is the traces. So, you know, we can surmise that the desire for vessels for fermentation was the incentive for figuring out pottery and that people have been practicing fermentation for longer than we’ve had pottery vessels, but yes, for at least thousands of years. And i would point out it’s just a natural biological phenomenon that happens without us. So, you know, i think that our our primate ancestors were, to some degree familiar with fermentation. My niece’s husband, they live in vermont. And he’s a scientist he sends this whole day doing scientific research. But his hobby is pickling things. And you, if you open any any closet in their house, you see these jars with different vegetables in there, and they’re pickling. Do you see this is like a new trend for millennials? Well, i mean, i i mean, i would say the people, i mean people have been have always pickled things. You know, people who’ve had gardens have always had a reason. Teo pickle things to put things up, and the word pickling covers a lot of ground. You know, most contemporary pickles involved just pouring hot vinegar over vegetables and essentially sterilizing them in the jar. But you can also pickle things like a sauerkraut or kimchi could be called in a pickle. The kosher deals that i grew up loving, our pickles and those air basically just vegetables in a saltwater brian where fermentation creates lactic acid that preserved vegetables. So all the, you know, micro microbial activity is very sort of present and alive in those stiles pickles on fermentation is going on in our bodies do, isn’t it, sander? Yeah, sure. I mean, the cells of our bodies are capable of fermentation. And when we sort of call upon particular muscles to do more work than there were providing them oxygen for the reverts to this ferment a tive mode of metabolism where they produce lactic acid is a byproduct. And that the source of the feeling of a muscle burns, you know, also women’s bodies actually produced a carbohydrate. Glycogen that supports ah population of lactic acid bacteria that creates an acidic environment that facilitates human reproduction. Who, you know there’s, a huge amount of fermentation going on. So in a number of different ways, you know, in our bodies there’s, lots of fermentation, that’s, exciting. Andi, i have felt that when i’m when i’m working out, you feel like burning pain in your legs after a run. That’s ah that’s, lactic acid, you’re saying, yeah, that that that’s like to guess that that’s, basically, you know, the incredible sort of ingenuity and flexibility of of our bodies. If we’re not giving them enough oxygen for the oxidative mode, they have this other mode of energy production, the fermented mode outstanding. All right, we’re going to take a break. We go away for a couple seconds. Claire meyerhoff stays with us, send our crowd stays with us, and i hope that you do, too. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth? Seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss our coaching and consultant services a guaranteed to lead toe right growth for your business, call us at nine one seven eight three, three, four, eight six zero foreign, no obligation free consultation. Check out our website of ww dot covenant seven dot com oppcoll are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect no more it’s time. Join me, larry shop a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to know what’s. Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry. Sure you’re neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s. Ivory tower, radio dot com e every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education. Listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com metoo welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I can’t send live listener love or podcast pleasantries today, i’m sorry. Um, we’re not live. We’re recording a couple days in advance, so but live listener love to the people who i bet are out there. California was always checking in north carolina, texas, new york, new york, washington, washington and oregon have been have been checking in, and of course i can. I was wrong. I can’t send podcast pleasantries to everybody listening to the podcast, especially our friends in germany. Lots of podcast listeners in germany, like over a thousand um, sander, you, uh you mentioned a love of ah early love of garlic pickles. You prefer those over the naan garlic country? You’re kind um, my my favorite kinder with garlic and deal. And right now, in my garden, i have an explosion of cucumbers, and so i’m seeing some garlic dill pickles in my near future, you’ll be meditating about those as a squire said so. So for people who have an excess of cabbage, this could also be very valuable, right? Yeah, sure. I mean, any vegetable can be fermented, you know. Using pretty similar technique. Um, you know, the classic is definitely fermented cabbage, sauerkraut, but you can add, you know, different vegetables together. Often i’ll add carrots to the sauerkraut, but it’s a really very versatile process. And we want teo establish your bona fide these for being on this show, you’re you, you do work with local non-profits in western tennessee, don’t you? Well, i mean, for for my whole life, i’ve been involved in a, uh, different kinds of non-profits when i still lived in new york, i worked for some non-profits i did fund-raising you know, now now my involvement is much more let’s, say, casual and peripheral, but but, yeah, i think it’s important, tio um, you know, sort of support local charitable organizations and people doing good works. What was the occasion for your move from new york city, the western tennessee that’s that’s a pretty big move on and actually it’s, not western tennessee in middle tennessee where we’re looking, but, i mean, basically, it was a moment when i was trying to make a big change in my life and, you know, i met some people who were part of ah, um uh community here and i was very intrigued by the stories they told and decided to come visit and check out what they were doing, and i don’t know, i mean, as much as anything, just the idea of, you know, moving to a rural environment, getting involved in keeping a garden, you know, drinking fresh spring water, you know, those things were very appealing to me. Um, and, uh, so yeah, it was it was a big change of life moving from, you know, manhattan to a rural county with maybe ten thousand people in it. My wife recently started her first garden. She no longer lives in new york. City’s move teo, a suburb of indianapolis, and she has this beautiful garden is probably forty year, maybe even fifty five, forty feet long and about twenty feet wide, with lots of different varieties of lettuce and varieties of peppers. Broccoli didn’t do so well this year, but she sent me a picture of her just so proudly sitting at the garden with with little young sprouts like all the sprouts for, like, two or three inches, but the first, you know, the first time and she’s just so she just looked so pleased with herself in that little picture. It’s. Lovely, but i mean, it’s, it’s, very gratifying, you know, t grow food, and it puts you in touch with, you know, the land and the sort of incredible potential of the seeds and, you know, puts you in this sort of nurturing role and it’s very empowering, because you know this, you know, really limited amount of work you’re doing is producing all this wonderful fresh food, and you can just, you know, taste and feel how you know how healthy it is to eat such fresh food and and it’s incredibly fun and rewarding that’s. Then, claire, do you have a garden and, you know, i mean, people do it all over. I mean, you know, i’m in touch with people in new york. Were involved in, you know, urban community gardens, rooftop gardens. I mean, i think that, you know, lots of people everywhere are getting more interested in gardening and producing their own food. You know, in supporting local farmers, i think, you know, all these things are interconnected. You have a garden, claire. I think the extent of my gardening was pretty much. I’ll buy one of those basil plants or something and keep it on my windowsill in pluck from it. All right. I see that in the city a lot fresher than any baseball. You could possibly that’s, right? And you know that it doesn’t have besides. And fungicides and pesticides in your its little in this little pot, right? Yes. I think an herb garden is a good way to garden for the for the bow tannic ly challenged like myself. You know, sanders, you have a sauerkraut recipe that that’s really simple that i wanted to share with us. Please. Okay, sure. So i will tell you the short version. And let me tell you that if you look at my website, wild fermentation dot com, you confined a much more sort of fleshed out version of it. If you need more details, i always i always recommend fermenting vegetables, as you know, the best way to sort of make a first step into fermentation it’s a it’s a great gateway into fermentation because you don’t need any special equipment. You don’t need any special starter cultures, you know it’s really? Absolutely intrinsically safe. There’s. Never been a documented case of food poisoning from fermented vegetables in the united states. Um uh, you see results relatively quickly and it’s. Incredibly delicious and healthy. Um, you take some cabbage on dh, chop it up, you can augment it with other vegetables, carrots, turnips of the root vegetables, onions, garlic. You know, almost any vegetable you could imagine. Just chop it up and then lightly salted. You know, don’t get caught up on a sort of magic number of how much salt you need to use lightly salted taste it. Make sure it tastes. Ah, good to you can always add more salt. If you like it’s. Easier to add salt in it is to attract salt. Um, and then take your your shredded salted vegetables in a bowl and just spend five minutes with your hands just squeezing them on dh. What this does is it kind of bruises, the vegetables breaks down some cell walls. Our objective here is to get the vegetable submerged under their own juices and by squeezing them, you make them juicy. So it’s easy when you stuffed him into a jar to press them down and have their juices rise up over them. Then once you’re vegetables are nice and juicy, you take a jar. Aa wide mouth jar is easier than a narrow necked jar. You could certainly use a a beautiful ceramic crock if you have one. But a jar’s is something simple that everybody has. Ah, court jar will take about two pounds of vegetables to fill, and then you just stuff the vegetables into the jar. Um, uh and used some force and expel any air pockets. And as you press the vegetables down, you will see liquid rising up over them. Bilich um, andi, and then you just leave it for a few days. I like to leave it right on my kitchen counter world see it. Because if you seal the jar there’s going to be all this carbon dioxide that’s produced and it’ll pre-tax crate some pressure and it’s okay, to feel the jar, but you’ve got to be sure every day or so to release the pressure. Okay, um, now, you know, the big question of fermentation is, when is it ready? You know, window, i eat it. How do i know that? It’s ready and there’s. Just no straightforward answer to that question. I mean, if you were, you know, doing this on a homestead with with a seller, you would probably make enough to get you through the winter, and it would be fermenting for months and months on. Some people like it best after several months, but you really can start to eat it. After just a couple of days, the thie acids air forming, there’s dense populations of probiotic back syria. Um, um, you know, the textures changing. So? So what i recommend that people do is just tasted every two or three days, eat a little bit of it and then press it down. Make sure it gets submerged under under the juices again on dh. Then you get to see a progression of flavours and, you know, do you like it? Mohr and mohr as it gets more acidic? Or did you like it best after, you know four days and then it started to get too strong for you. The beautiful thing about fermenting yourself, like making anything for yourself is you can figure out how you like it and make it the way you like it. So many people prefer a milder crowd that’s fermented for a shorter period of time than what they’ve typically been exposed too. You can make it spicy. You could make it not bye. See you could ferment for weeks and weeks or just for a few days. There’s a lot of possibilities once you understand, you know the basic process, which is that simple, you know, charm, salt, squeeze stuff in a jar and wait a few days. What are some of the spices you could add if you besides the soul? I mean, some classic spicing ideas would be tearaway seed juniper berries in the korean tradition of kimchi, it would be hot chili peppers and garlic and ginger and shallots or onions. Um, but but people are doing a lot of non traditional vegetable fermentation these days, and i’ve had some excellent curry crowds that have, you know, turmeric and, you know, other curry spices in them. Um you could certainly do a deal. Flavored crowdster you can incorporate fruit that’s. Very popular eastern europe. You know, cranberries or little bits of other bits of other kinds of fruits in with sauerkraut. You know, there’s really infinite possibilities. And you know, your imagination is really the only limitation. Alright. You mentioned earlier that that ah, among all the foods that are fermenting or fermented there were not aware of chocolate. How is that? How is that a fermentation product? Well, chocolate and also coffee, um are fermented on the harvesting end. So this happens in the tropical places where cacau and coffee grow with with cacau it’s, the, uh, the pods after they’re harvested, you know, art are mounded and moistened with water. Um, to, uh, to facilitate a spontaneous fermentation. And this, uh, both digests the fibres that hold the cacau beans into the pods. And it also helps develop the flavour that we associate with chocolate. Um and, uh, and similarly a coffee it’s the it’s, the beans right when they’re harvested are mounted on the ground moistened and allowed to spontaneously ferment and that’s part of the flavor development. No, um, tell me something else. About fermentation that i haven’t asked you. What will would you like to share about it? Well, i mean, i think that was one thing that’s really on people’s minds a lot today, uh, is this idea of probiotics and a growing awareness of how important you know, bacteria are in our bodies, you know? And yet, because of antibiotic drugs, anti avectra cleansing products, chlorinated water way have, you know, quite a bit of chemical exposure that, you know, subjects the bacteria in our bodies to assault. So, you know, people are turning tio supplements er of probiotics and just thinking about, you know, how to, you know, replenish and diversify their bacterial populations in the gut, and i would say that really, there’s no better way to do this then with fermented foods, you have to understand that not all fermented foods contain live bacterial cultures. Um, a cup of coffee does not contain latto pectoral cultures aloof of bread, that’s been big, does not contain life bacterial cultures. It’s really, those ferment that have not been cooked after their fermentation. So yogurt is a classic example of a live culture food, but sauerkraut provided it hasn’t been canned is another one. What about beer? Is that? Is that a fermenting process? Oh, absolutely. Here and your wine sake. All alcoholic beverages are products of fermentation. Absolutely. Now, in terms of the life bacterial cultures that i was talking about, i mean, historically. Okay. In the natural world, microorganisms don’t do not exist singularly. You’d never find a single type of microorganism. So historically, alcoholic beverages have always also had lactic acid bacteria as well as a cz well as these. But, you know, really what? Louis pesters, you know, achievement that sort of spawned the field of microbiology was isolating a single organism yeast. So, you know you can in any supermarket you can buy a packet of pure yeast. No, you know, most commercial, you know, beers and wines are made with, you know, just pure yeast and don’t have you no other bacteria in with them. Sandorkraut is it? We have to wrap up just a couple minutes. What is it that you love about doing this work? Well, really, i mean, what, what, what? What got me interested in teaching and speaking about fermentation is the mystifying it. I mean, fermentation is just such a it’s. Such an important part of everybody’s life. I mean, on lee because, you know, so many of the foods that are central to every culinary tradition, you know, all around the world involved fermentation, um, you know, and yet because, uh, you know, fermentation has largely disappeared from, you know, our families and our and our households and our and our communities, and disappeared behind factory doors. People have become very intimidated by it. You know, we’re taught to be afraid of, uh, bacteria and microorganisms, and so there’s there’s, just all of this fear and with the food is simple and safe and sauerkraut. I mean, you know, everybody’s terrified, you know, how can i be sure i’m getting good bacteria growing and not bad bacteria? You know, we’ve just been taught to have so much fear about about bacteria, so so i got, you know, i’m interested in empowering people and, you know, helping people learn how to do this with, you know, with confidence and do it safely. Um, and effectively, sandora. Alex katz, sandorkraut he’s, a fermentation revivalist, and you will find him at wild fermentation dot com. Sandra, thank you very much for being our inaugural out of the blue guest pleasure. All right, tony. Well, it’s. A pleasure to be on your show out of the blue, thanks very much. Bye, sander. We go away for a couple seconds, and when we come back, it’s, tony’s, take two and then volunteermatch making with scott koegler and, of course, clear meyerhoff. Still here. Stay with us. E-giving didn’t think dick tooting getting ding, ding, ding ding. You’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving. Dahna duitz are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you! Hi, i’m lost in a role, and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour eleven a m we’re gonna have fun shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re gonna invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a m on talking alternative dot com you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Schnoll if you have big ideas and an average budget, tune into the way above average. Tony martin. Any non-profit radio ideo. I’m jonah helper from next-gen charity. Hi there. This week’s tony’s take two is what i blogged about this week, which is my non-profit bootcamp interview. Jamie bristowe lavoy from non-profit match one the number one dot com put together a series of interviews with consultants and some other people, and i was one of them in this non-profit boot camp. Another one was bob penna who’s, the author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox and he’s been a guest on this show so you can hear the two of us in any case. And about five other people were interviewed for the boot camp. And i talked about the importance and the timeliness of planned giving and charity registration on my thanks to jamie bristowe, lavoy at non-profit match one dot com for including me and also we have a couple of minutes. I wantto ask claire miree clair aside from being creative producer of this show, which is more than a full time job but she’s able to squeeze in being principal of the plant e-giving agency, which is marketing and communications for planned giving programs. What’s ah what’s happening in plan giving, marketing communications. Well, i think that aa lot of savvy clients thes tae’s air taking like a different look at their plan giving marketing maybe they’ve been at it for a few years. They have a website, they’ve been doing some mailings and things like that, but i found that some clients are asking me like, well, what else can we do? What’s something kind of different, so i’ll help them come up with a little project. I always call it like a special project and it’s about basically finding a group of niche donors that you might have that you’ve been kind of ignoring. And how can you drill down your list of your millions of donors down to a group of maybe, like, i don’t know, maybe two hundred so narrow your audience to about two hundred people and then asked them to do something for you, send them a letter and ask them some questions, maybe try to get some little bit of content out of them, but basically, what you’re trying to do is engage them and see what level of interest they have in your organization. So a little special letter, maybe to a small group of people now, if you don’t have a list of a million, which a lot of our listeners, if you have a list of a thousand, you can still ask twenty or twenty five people can’t exactly cause it’s about starting a conversation, the best plan giving people out there that have really, you know, robust plan giving programs, big universities and things, right? So what what’s their job? A za plan giving officer theirjob is mostly to try to get conversations with people so their their goal is tio identify someone that will sit down and actually have a conversation with them about how they’re supporting the organization, what their future plans might be? Are we in your will for how much are we in your will? So the goal is always to have a conversation with an individual’s, so if you don’t have a big plan giving department and a plan giving officer, wouldn’t it be nice to sort of identify a small group of people and have a conversation with them? Start the conversation that helps you identify who these really loyal, really interested people r thank you and letters. I’m a lot of people these days. They’re hiring me to write letters for them direct mail still. Does very well wreck male and very and again more specific letters. One letter i just did for an organization was was very clean. They had wanted to send out a big, fat request letter to a bunch of people and say, like, oh, it’s very important you give us a request for these reasons, and then we do this and we do that, and i got them to ditch that and to instead just send a letter from an existing plan giving donor a guy who says, you know, a year ago i did the best thing i ever did. I put this organization in my will have, you know, a story half tells you stories, even a story, just the fact that someone did it and have you done it to you and to see if people will respond to that letter and say, yeah, i’ve done it. So before you try to explain to people a whole bunch of stuff or tell them a big story, why don’t you just find out if they’ve just plain old put you in their will already? Okay, simple letters. My first my first guest, i think for tony’s take two. Never had i don’t think i’ve ever had a somebody else come into and give insight for on tony’s tech to take to take claire, take two to table tio tio car meyerhoff plan giving agency she’s saying that she’s not going anywhere, not that she’s going anywhere, but we’re going to bring in r monthly technology contributor scott koegler he’s, the editor of non-profit technology news, which you will find at n p tech news. Dot com scotty koegler how you doing? Good tony, how you i’m doing terrific, lee, thanks for being on the show today. It’s. Good to have you back. Problem. You were talking about the beer we’re talking about volunteers and matching volunteers. There’s ah there’s a boon in volunteerism. It’s, it’s critical for charities. Obviously, right? I mean, aside from volunteering funds and that kind of thing, that time is a big deal time and talents and you’re right. I mean, the boom. I was really amazed to read these statistics, and i just kind of re kapin here. These air from the corporation for national community service. Um sixty four point three million americans, which equates to about twenty six point eight percent. Of the adult population. Think about that more than a quarter of the adult population is actually giving of their time for free. Just amazing. Especially in these times when, you know, people really know that more than that, many people want work, right? Yeah, right. And that amounts to almost eight billion hours. Um, with the service it’s just that. That that’s just amazing. Number two may i just but it’s almost restores my faith in humanity that people actually, uh, you know, do care about the environment of people around him. Yeah, yeah. We’re ah, were a volunteer culture mean, we wantto we want to help each other right on dh and coarse. You know, with that kind of numbers becomes the question what? How do you deal with it? How do you put that together? How do you manage the people that obviously want to do something and match them up with things that are available to do and, you know, yeah. It’s like social media, right? I mean, you’ve got a lot of things to do. And how do you actually get to the people that not only are qualified to do that? I want to. Do it okay. And that’s, where the that technology is going to help us match the match, the willing volunteers with the charities that are in need. So what? And this is also good for employers as well, right? Right. Because, you know, when you have employees who are dedicated to the community probably means of just kind of a better all around person, but is a part of your staff so that’s on the internal side and then from the external side, i guess pr kind of thing if you have people that are being helpful, the community that’s exposed, exposing your organization, your for-profit organization as a do gooder organization as well. So that’s, always good and mix for ah loyal and productive employees, because we know that if people want to help and you’re giving them you as the employer are giving them a way of helping charity’s, then i think that also leads to a productive, happier employees, right, and possibly happier and more productive customers. No mean, every every company is looking for ways to get customers toe two do more business with them. And if part of that is that’s the whole point behind. Social media for for profit organizations is that you get people to, like you interact with them, show them something that is good about the company rather than just all the complaints that inevitably come up. So all right, so just another feather in the cap. So let’s, bring this to the to the technology. You’re the yeah, the technology contributor. Now we know the value of volunteerism all around. What what’s what’s the technology doing for us? Well, overall, what it’s doing is matching. I mean, if you think about the basic matching stuff, the one that comes to mind probably the most people’s match dot com where you’re taking individuals, uh, attributes and interests and talents and all those kind of things and locations, of course, and your matching them up with in terms of match dot com with other people with the same kinds of interests. This it’s the same kind of technology. I’m looking at one online right now. Is volunteermatch shot or ge? Yes, just like that volunteermatch that organ right on the front page here. I just brought it up when it says what, uh, what do you care about in and then it knows where i am? Of course. Traveller’s rest south carolina. So it right there, it’s helping me too find things that i mean, that i’m a like when they want to do in my local area. So the technology here is obviously on the very first part of it is knowing i just get a little bit technical here. Tony, um, it’s tracing my i p address my internet protocol address, which is the connection between me and the internet and those things are pretty much location based, so it knows my location that nose in this case, i’m in traveller’s rest, okay? And if i were accessing it on my phone, it would actually just do g p s ok. And so the interesting this is the same technology that that match dot com and christian mingle and i don’t know others other, uh, e-giving findings of them, but yes, exactly. Its interest and location based after at the very top level. Okay, so those interests, they’re going to match e guess your skills with a charity’s needs. Yeah. So let’s, just let’s. Just do a little experiment here. I’m on. This one here is volunteermatch dot org’s and first of all, it knows where i am, but it really doesn’t know anything about me because i’ve never logged in here before you, so i’ll just say i care about animals and see what comes up with, um, pets and people. Um, the hospital luthan hospice of south carolina, no volunteer foreign exchange student, pet therapy volunteers now that might be one cut therapy volunteers, which is a hospice. So i mean, there it is. Within about what, five seconds i found something that might match what i like to do so i could get my animal. You know, i got a friendly dog. I could take the dog down too. The pet therapy volunteers and held out no, pretty amazing, actually. Okay, now, of course, in volunteermatch has gotta be a place there’s a portal. I’m sure for charities to sign up as well. Well, yeah, i think you know, the hospice qualifies is charity, right? Right. But i’m saying you you entered as an individual they would enter is right. They will enter as a charity on dh. They’d be assuming, you know, i assumed they would be putting in what there they’re volunteer needs are what? What they’re what they’re looking for, right? Just the top of this one again, we’ll stick with volunteermatch they’re two things. One has find opportunities, which is obviously what i did right next to it is recruit volunteers. So in that case, see, they have volunteers connected since nineteen, eighty eight, seven million, so they, you know, they have done this a bit. Okay, another three to join. So so it’s free for the charities, claire, i’m so i’m sorry. No. Good. Yeah. So, yeah, i would assume. Well, i don’t know if it’s free. How does this website make make money? They’ve advertisers are well, i just scroll down a bit and it shows here this is built on the freemium concept, which is you get the basic level for free, which includes recruiting tools on on referral for fools from corporate partners, tracking and reporting in a photo manager. Then for for seventy five dollars for the year, you get this whole bunch of other stuff. So still a seventy five dollars that’s uh, that’s not bad. Okay, another one that i’m familiar with is catch a fire dot or ge. And i know that one because of rachel chung who’s. The ceo has been a guest, and you’ll find my interview with her on the youtube channel. Real tony martignetti dot com look for catch fire, or rachel chung, a young woman and very vibrant. And but doing the same type of work that that that we’re talking about, we’ll take a break. And when we come back, we’ll wrap this up. But also, i neglected to mention earlier, scott is goingto inaugurate. Another new feature, he’s goingto recommend bottles of wine, he’s, an oenophile, and that i don’t think that qualifies for jargon jail, because i think people know what file is. He’s got cinephile, and each month, he’s, going toe as a wind kind of sewer is going to recommend a bottle of wine, twenty dollars or under. So stay with us for all of that. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business felt and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Scott, what else? What else do you want to leave us with around this volunteermatch ing between charities and the willing volunteers? I you know, i mean, there’s. Plenty of web sites out there. The technology is available. And i think that if if they organization is not no really utilizing the volunteers it’s probably a matter of not trying because obviously people want to volunteer. They want to give up their time and talents, and they’re really looking for just the right place to put it. So, uh, advice. You know, just go do it. Find a one of these websites that is free or an expensive sign up for it and put it out there and see how it works. Because apparently it is working to put a lot of places. You have another one. That’s. Ah. Also mentioned in the in the article at n p tech news. Dot com. Besides, so we we talked about volunteermatch dot or ge catch a fire dot or ge you have another one or two. Uh, disaster ready. Dot org’s is the one that’s uh, mentioned in there. And so that that one is another one of these, and what they do is they specialize in having things preview pre-tax four disasters and its specialized for those kind of things, and they’re you know, how to get mobilized howto find people kind of put things together before things happened, so it’s, you know, well, well intentioned, and it looks like they do a great job, although i don’t have any personal experience with them, okay? And is disaster ready? Also for individuals who want to gain skills for a disaster? I think it is. I know that it’s it’s put together by cornerstone on demand foundation, and so they do a lot of these kinds of getting ready kinds of things they’ve got food for the hungry america cares, they’ve got a whole bunch of these. Ah, no, i’m not really sure which one of these is, uh uh, does what? For which organizations but it’s another one of those that’s worth taking a look at if you’re non-profit looking for ways to make the best out of your best efforts with your with your volunteers. Okay, well, let’s, move to your other expertise. Claire told me on the break that, you know, file actually does qualify for jargon jail. So i guess i shouldn’t have let you know. I mean, you know what? You know. All right. Well, first, i think, well, we want to spell it. It starts with an o o and o p h i l e in a file on dh claire would know who belongs in jargon jail because, claire, you you created george jargon jail. I branded jargon jael and i came up with the term jargon, jargon jail. And i don’t know if this qualifies for jargon jail, because it qualifies more for, like, just words you don’t know. Jail. Okay, well, that doesn’t sound his fundez drug in jail, though. All right, sort of just like vocabulary vestibule. Another alliteration is all right. All right, scott. So you’re goingto each time you come on, you’re going to recommend ah, bottle of wine. That’s. Twenty dollars or under. What? What? What do you have for this month? Um, i have one that this is actually one of my very favorites. And tony, this is right up your alley. This is an italian line and you know one of the things. About wines is the story behind them. I mean, the taste obviously, is one of the things that what’s attractive about it. But this this is a this is an italian line it’s a valve pulawski piela which is actually a great with riot allies they call it and, uh, this is from the territory northern end of italy called verona, which, you know, is romeo and juliet and all that kind of thing. So it’s a kind of ah very historical place. And so this is a what i’m recommending is a courtier majoli two thousand eight val pulawski piela and this is a different about bullet shell. You know, most of these wines are you take the grapes to squeeze him, you know, you let them ferment tulani stick him in a bottle. Falik the easy way. This one here is also there’s a second process to this is a really posso alright p a s s o ripoff, so i’m not sure it’s literally that means route to re pass. So what they do is they take the grape skins after they’ve squeezed them and they set them aside and then after the wind has run through its first fermentation, they actually pour the wine back through the skins and been doing that. It picks up a little bit more sugar, a little bit more fermentation. And this amazing flavor it’s uh, it’s not sweet, although it sounds like there’s a lot of sugar in it, but it’s not sweet at all. Um and it’s just it’s. Just one of those things that you see, you try to put your finger where you actually your tongue on the flavor and it’s it’s tough to do. Interesting. Now i’m notoriously although i i have tasted lots of lines. I’m just terrible at describing flavors but it’s a, uh it’s a semi typical italian valpolicella, which is a kind of a dry wine. It’s got notes of maybe some raisins and some plum and that kind of thing. But it’s, one of those you really have to experience and first price, you know, it’s it’s. Fifteen dollars, which is just phenomenal. Okay. Are our first guests of sandra cats and talked all about fermentation. So this makes this makes a lot of sense. Of course. Wine. He mentioned all the alcohol products we talked about. Um, do you have a. You have an online source for your wine, or do you buy it? Ah, local shop or what way buy-in around here in this in this area way come to know some of the distributors. This one here we actually get from a local distributor. So even if i told you it was, it wouldn’t be any good, because right now, he’s probably not where you are. But i will tell you one one thing i’d like to plug and it’s something called the vino, the i v i and o it’s an app for your phone, for your smartphone or your tablet. I think you can get it online on regular website as well. But it’s a great tool because what it does is it allows you to take your phone and take a picture of the label of the bottle, and it automatically stands with those all this fancy ocr conversion. And then it looks it up and it says, oh, you know, two hundred people scan this one and they said it’s really good and they they they founded that these places to buy, and it should cost you around this amount of money and then you can put your own tasting notes in it, so okay, so, it’s a good afternoon. I’m on there. So if somebody does download that i’m on their good and follow me on there as well, we can share notes about line. So you need to do that, honey. Okay. Vivino okay, um, we just have about two minutes left. You mentioned notes of raisins. And i mean, are you able to taste different things when you are you trained that way. Your tongue, khun denote these things, these flavors? Well, as i kind of mentioned, i’m really bad at it. I have a couple of friends who are master sommelier is, you know, someone is the guy at the restaurant that comes around. We’ll cup around his neck and taste the line and says, you know, if it’s good or not, but they actually are, you know, that’s. Part of their training is the expertise of saying yes, this has, you know, i could taste rust. I can taste pencil, lead some of the things they come up with, just my goodness hazing to me. I don’t know what kind of restaurant you go to. I never had a guy, come around with a with a little cup around his neck. I really had waitresses and waiters hold out their hands for a tip. That’s not what this cup is for. You don’t put money in it, do you? That’s what? Subway somebody’s holding a cup of tea. Just put a dollar bill in it, but that’s not what you’re talking about. No, not now. Okay. All right. We have to leave it there, you know file, which is wind connoisseur, wine expert and technologist. Scott koegler, the editor of non-profit technology news at n p tech news. Dot com scottie, thank you for talking about volunteers. And thank you for talking about val pola piela. Thanks, tony. Take care. My pleasure. Claire meyerhoff. Any any enclosing notes for the show? I just want to say that you do a fantastic job with your radio show. I’m so very impressed with your interviewing skills and your your, you know, knowledge of your subject matter. And you’re over the top. She’s an old radio galaxies. The greatest guy ever. She’s a pro she’s a pro, used to be a w t o p in washington, washington i’ve worked at x. And satellite radio is a talk show host. All kinds of stuff. Thanks for being on the run. Thanks for being now and it’s all brought you to tony montana provoc radio thing comment pinnacle pinnacle it’s pete, you’ve achieved, you’ve achieved the zenith of your career. Thanks for being with a real pleasure having pleasure next week. First half of the show, i’m not sure it might be the overhead myth you’re familiar with that letter. I’m still trying to get the three co signers of that letter on this show. It might be next friday or if not, then we’ll do a interview from fund-raising day this past june. Also, jean takagi returns are legal contributor, and he and i are going to continue the discussion on back to board basics. Insert sponsor message over nine thousand leaders, fundraisers and board members of small and midsize charities listen each week so does claire meyerhoff with her cracked iphone. She’s she’s taking pictures dropped in with dr lee. It looks gross. I don’t know it’s amazing. They still work still works. You can contact me on the block if you want to talk about sponsoring this show our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer. The show’s social media is now by deborah askanase of community organizer two point oh, welcome, deborah, and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. I hope you’ll be with me next week. Friday one to two eastern at talking alternative dot com. Co-branding thing. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network, waiting to get me anything. Get in, cubine, are you a female entrepreneur? Ready to break through? Join us at sixty body sassy soul, where women are empowered to ask one received what they truly want in love, life and business. Tune in thursday, said noon eastern time to learn tips and juicy secrets from inspiring women and men who, there to define their success, get inspired, stay motivated and defying your version of giant success with sexy body sake. Sold every thursday ad. Men in new york times on talking alternative that calms. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking tux sick medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. Be more effective, be happier. And make more money. Improving communications. That’s the talking.

Nonprofit Radio for August 24, 2012: Campaign Volunteers & Fiscal Sponsorships

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

Listen live or archive:

Tony’s Guests:

Rich Foss
Rich Foss: Campaign Volunteers

Rich Foss, author of Greenlight Fundraising, on the importance of volunteer leadership in your campaign. How to recruit your chair and lead donor; the other volunteers you need in place; and what their jobs are. He has job descriptions and other resources that will go up on LinkedIn and Facebook.

 

Gene Takagi & Emily Chan
Gene Takagi & Emily Chan: Fiscal Sponsorships

Our regular legal contributors, Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO), make sense of this complicated relationship. What it is; why your office might become a sponsor and what that looks like; how to get started.

 


Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

You’re on the air and on target as I delve into the big issues facing your nonprofit—and your career.

If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.

When and where: Talking Alternative Radio, Fridays, 1-2PM Eastern

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Here is a link to the audio podcast: 106: Campaign Volunteers & Fiscal Sponsorship. You can also subscribe on iTunes to get it automatically.
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Hello and welcome to the show, it’s tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, how i hope you were that you were with me last week. That’s all i just hope you were here. We had grow grassroots michael o’brien, founder and principal of mob advocacy. He knows how to bring people to your cause with grassroots advocacy. How do you activate people? What are grass tops? We talked about that and how do you engage those people? Where do you go to meet potential coalition partners and what’s the added value for your work around grassroots advocacy and divine devices, desktops, laptops, tablets and handhelds? Scott koegler had tips for picking the right device to fit your budget, your work style and personality. You know him? He’s, the editor of non-profit technology news and our monthly tech contributor. Of course, this week, campaign volunteers rich foss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we, he and i are going to talk about the importance of volunteer leadership in your campaign, how to recruit your chair and lead donor and the other volunteers you need in place and what their jobs are and has lots of descriptions and other resources that will go up on linkedin and facebook after the show today and fiscal sponsorships. Our legal team jean takagi and emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group make sense of this complicated relationship. What it is, why your office might become a sponsor or sponsoring and what that looks like and how to get started between the guests on tony’s take two big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you’ve heard that already. Today my block this week is to encourage you to listen to the show and since that’s a paradox, i’ll have some other things to talk about other ways to connect on tony’s take two here’s the first one, of course hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter right now, we take a break, and when we return it’s campaign volunteers on rich fost will join me. I hope you stay here co-branding think dick tooting getting dink dink, dink dink, you’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Thank you. You could join the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city in pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot or or a nj dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna welcome back, live listener love going out new bern, north carolina? Oh, how i miss north carolina haven’t been there for a few months, but i will be there soon september welcome new bern and we’ve got more live listener love as the show goes on right now, my guest is rich fuss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising your sustainable fund-raising guide to raising fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars a year to light up the eyes of people you serve and your donor’s hope the book is shorter than its title. Rich he’s been in fund-raising over twenty nine years as both staff and a consultant he’s with me from rural illinois, where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community rich fast welcome to the show. Thank you, tony. I’m really glad to be here today. It’s my pleasure to have you, uh, we’re talking about campaign volunteers. What what’s the role of volunteers in a campaign about in my career, i worked with community non-profits and usually there’s only one or two development staff, and so i really wanted to develop a system that could be a multiplier for for staff and also that could really use the gold standard of fund-raising, which is, is. You raise a lot more money when you sit down face to face with somebody and describe the organization and ask them for a gift. Face-to-face and so, basically, i developed this system where you recruit volunteers and have them sit down with face-to-face with people and ask forgiveness for your non-profit and, uh, uh, not promise that have developed our have a doubt that it it’s been very special for them. Now we have a drug in jail on tony martignetti non-profit radio, and i hate to do it to you in this very first segment. But you said volunteers are our multipliers for for the charity? What? Why do you what does that mean? Basically, what it means is that that a development director, even if they go out and ask forgiveness, face-to-face, uh, can only meet with so many people each week or each year, and if you have aa group of passionate volunteers, uh, bacon meet with her a lot more people in a much shorter period of time and, uh, that’s why i call it a multiplier, okay, so early parole from jog in jail, but what your step you don’t you don’t want a second offense while you’re on parole. The let’s see, i’ve heard that it’s really? I mean, volunteers and i’ve had guests say this volunteers are the leaders of the campaign. Is that do you? Do you believe that over rather than the staff of the charity? Uh, definitely definitely. And that’s why? In setting up the system, the very first step is to recruit the campaign chair person who you want to have a very influential person in your community be the campaign chair person because their leadership will influence a lot of other people to, uh, to join your campaign. And so that that leadership role is extremely important. Okay? And we’re gonna have some time to talk about how to recruit that campaign chair is as well as some other volunteers, but what’s the role of the charity’s staff in all this. Then if the if the campaign is being led by volunteers, well, basically, i describe it. The role of the the, uh, campaign staff is particularly development staff. He used to run the system. Sometimes i like in these campaigns like an ipad. The ipad spring is very simple. And yet behind it, there’s a whole lot of details. Well, what you want to do in these campaigns is to create the systems and the details in such a way that it’s very easy for the the er staff are executing the volunteers to do their work, and so that requires a lot of work, a lot of organizational detail, a lot of of of work on the part of the development. Okay, now you’ve been doing this for nearly thirty years, so you can’t always have been like getting this toe ipad. What you used to look like in tow the old pong game or what? What did you used to liking it, too? Twenty nine years ago. Oh, okay, well, i didn’t have any metaphors until i was the brother typewriter. When you push the half space key. What i love just love about those type, you know? You know there’s? No, they didn’t used to be an exclamation mark on typewriters. I’m sure you remember that, right? Right. Had you had to do a period and then a back space and then a apostrophe to get an exclamation mark and that’s my theories. Why they’re overused now because there is an exclamation keith but that’s a little bit of a digression. I suppose. We have just a couple minutes before we take a break let’s from so so the so the staff is doing the systems. I mean, they’re they’re basically they’re supporting the volunteer leadership then is that is that? I have that right. Okay, okay. Now, before we could do the campaign chair, your advice is that there be a pre campaign committee. I don’t want to spend too much time on that, but just like a minute and a half before a break, tell us about the pre campaign committee, okay? Basically, you know, a lot of community non-profits their boards don’t get formed based on fund-raising. And so when i developed the system, i decided that we needed to have a group that was focused right on fund-raising and so generally what you do in the pre campaign committee, you get together, the executive director, maybe past boardmember the current board members, people who are influential, the most influential people in your community that are connected to your organization form that that, uh, campaign committee, because basically it takes influential people to recruit influential people, and so that prepaid campaign campaign committee gets together and identifies, okay, who are? The the top five people that could serve that in our community, that could serve in that role of campaign chairperson. Of course, if you put it, if you put dick cheney on your pre campaign committee, then he’s going to want to be campaign chair. Well, if you’re lucky, there might be somebody on your on your your pre campaign committee who could serve his chair. But especially in the first year, you want to go after the absolutely best person in your community, because that’s going to make your campaign sustainable because you want to do this every year, okay, which way a person. First, it works much better the next year. Okay, we’re going to take a break. We’ll come back and talk more about the campaign pre-tax paint committee leading into the campaign chair. Stay with us, talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time for action. Join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what you’re born, teo you society, politics, business and family. It’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry sharp, your neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven, new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower, radio, dot com for every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back. We’ve got more live listener love going out to massachusetts, spencer, massachusetts and no handup massachusetts, welcome to the broadcast with rich foster. We’re talking about fiscal sorry we’re talking about campaign volunteers, which fast, you probably want to talk about fiscal sponsorship, do you? I don’t care. You have expertise. Yeah, i don’t even particularly. I’m not looking forward to it, but we are going to want to talk about campaign volunteers on dh were in our pre campaign committee. So the this group of community leaders is assembled to to choose the people who would be good prospects for the campaign chair. Correct. Okay. And you did say if the pre campaign committee should include the the executive director of the charity? Correct. All right. Is that really the only should that be the only staff person employee of the charity? You’re often the development director will also be a part of it. Okay? And then other people who are prominent in the campaign co-branded community in there, in the community. Okay, so what’s their what’s, their process this as they as they narrowed down the prospects that they move toward asking somebody, uh, basically what? They do is the first thing they do is identify probably five people, possible people and then rank them. And basically, i suggest this because, uh, i learned from my mistakes the very first campaign that i was involved with. We we identified the next best person asked that person and they said no, and that happened four times. Yeah, so that’s. A lot of disappointment for a committee of mostly volunteers. That’s, right, that’s, right. Very disconcerting and out. The fifth person said yes and ended up to be a very a very good campaign chair person. So what was the lesson lesson from that? Yes, i learned from that identified five people right away. Rank them and that way, if you if somebody says no, you don’t have to push the panic button. Okay, your committee of volunteers is not disillusioned. That’s, right? They got others to go to. Ok, it’s right on. You have some pretty specific advice about about this process and even the meeting with with the candidates. Yeah, yeah. The the recruiting of volunteers is really, really serious business tonight i have a son who played division one basketball in fact, colgate university and so i got to see first hand the basketball recruiting process, and one of those guys are highly organized, and the same charities have to do the same thing. I have to plan things out very carefully and basically, you have to identify, okay, who’s going to on this pre campaigning committee, who’s the best person to invite the person to a breakfast or lunch where they can be approach who’s the best person to ask them to be the campaign chairperson and in the there’s, a lot of details that you and i have planned out, and you’re doing this for each of your five candidates. Yes, well, you do it for the first one and and then, you know, if you have to go to the second one, you do it, but all planned. I mean, do you even recommend people sort of role, role playing or any kind of mock mock meetings? Teo, talk about you’re going to say this and she’s going to say that, etcetera, i don’t know if you need to do the role playing, but you need to identify who was going to say what you know, so that that, uh, like the reason you involve the executive director is you need to have someone who could describe the non-profit and also who can tell a powerful story about the work of a non-profit and, uh, so you basically need to figure out the roles before you before you set up the meeting, okay? Okay. And at what point should you share the the sort of job description of the campaign chair with the with the prospect? Well, i, uh i would do it verbally during during the meeting and then, uh, attended the meeting just give them the job description, ok? You don’t want to read it during them during the meeting, but you want them to have something to refer to when they’re when they’re considering it. Rich has a model job description for the campaign chair and lots of other helpful resource is we’re going to mention a couple of them, but you’ll find, ah, whole list of them around this topic of campaign volunteers on my on linked in group for the show and also on the show’s facebook page after after the show, those will be posted and rich, who lets see who i should be the person to actually make the ask at the meeting is that should not be the person who’s the the closest to them. Or should it be the executive director? Or how do you decide who actually says we invite you to be our campaign chair? You basically need to ask who is the most influential person in terms of who’s who provoc perspective, campaign chair, person who’s? Who are they most likely say yes to ok. And that’s also the campaign pre campaign committee simply asked that question and hash is without among them and that’s, the person you asked, okay? And around a giving a gift expectation for the campaign chair. Certainly the person’s going to need a campaign they have to give. Correct. What do you like to see in terms of asking what? Telling them what they’re what the charities expectation is around that in an ideal world, they would give the elite gift. Uh, but way lived in an ideal world. You’d be on a much better. Show them this way. So we know that that’s out. Okay, i would be much more fluid. Uh, so you more support thing is influence not with e-giving ability of course you want them to give you want. You prefer to get them to give a major gift they clearly have to give, but they may not be able to give at the league gift level. Okay, uh, but their primary role is to be the chief influence in the campaign. So if they’re involved, you want everyone to say, wow, this is this is an important bilich event or important campaign in our community because this person i see ok, and also they become the person that it’s hard for other people to say no to write that’s, right? Because right, because they’re going to be responsible for recruiting other volunteers and asking people for gift. So say little about that, okay, the, um the campaign chair person will be responsible for recruiting the division chairs and that’s going to vary from community community, uh, in a larger city, you might do it by, you know, geography or, you know, a suburb or by industry that’s sort of part of the planning process. But whatever divisions you come up with, there needs to be a chairperson for that debate division. And, uh, you want your campaign chair person to recruit, recruit them. Okay, right. And you want to make that somebody that it’s hard to say no to that, right? Okay, so let’s spend a little time. By the way, just listeners were talking to rich boss he’s, the author of green light fund-raising we’re talking about the use of volunteers in your campaign rich why don’t you tell people where they can find your book? Green light fund-raising that or okay, green light fund-raising dot org’s let’s talk now, since you’re starting to lead us there. But you’re not taking over the show, which for some some guests get a little presumptuous. Take over the show. You’re not taking over the show. Appreciate it. I’ll follow your lead. You’re in trouble going off a cliff. Thie let’s talk you started brought into a bigger staff of volunteers. What should that? What? It’s? A little more. Besides the division heads. What should this broader volunteer kadre look like? Okay? One of one of the things that the development director needs to do is to develop a gift charges and the gift chart basically says what level of gifts need to be asked for and received in order to achieve. The goal, and then there are are once you have that, you can identify the number of volunteers you do, and i won’t go into all the process. But basically for every gift you need, you need three prospects. Right? Okay. And you want your volunteers to, uh, ask five people for gift. So this is hyre mathematics now. Okay, it’s. Just a matter of each volunteer. No, it’s hyre math for me anyway, so every volunteer as to ask five people that’s, right? Ok. That’s, right. And so well, you can figure based on your gift chart, you can figure out what you need to talk to so many prospects. And are you okay? Tio, meet your goal and you divide that by five. And then, you know, you’re a number of volunteers, okay? And that’s another one of the resource is that we have is that is not in the list of raving. Okay, there’s there’s a, uh an excel spreadsheet that has, ah, gift shark in it. And it also includes the breakdown of volunteers. Okay, excellent. And again, you’ll find those on the linked in group for the show and also the facebook page and then those air links back to teo richie site um, now we like to see volunteers recruiting their own teams isn’t isn’t that right? Yes, rather than having them posed by the staff that’s, right? It’s basically, because, you know, this is all volunteers doing it. They’re going to have to the leaders of the team leaders we’re gonna have to yeah, you know, do some gentle pushing to get things done, and they’re going to be able to do that much better with people that they know their friends. And so you want them, you want to strongly encourage them to recruit people that they know it, and, like and trust that the charity is putting a lot of faith and trust and like into it’s volunteers? I mean, there really are e-giving a lot of responsibility to this to this volunteer. Kadre yeah, yeah, and so, you know, one of the one of the the important roles, but particularly the development director does is is built strong relationships with the campaign leaders so that the campaign league leaders know that they’re going to have the support of the staff, and it really gives them confidence in their work and that kind of flows through the whole campaign. Okay, just the important point that this really is a ah delegation to the volunteers it is it is, yeah, yeah, and part of what happens is that, you know, i emphasized over and over again is you have to tell the stories of your non-profit because these dramatic stories of either wives transformed or also of, uh, the needs of non-profits mitnick is meeting really energizes the volunteers and gives them really meaning and purpose and what they’re doing way have a segment on the next show. My guest is rochelle shoretz and she’s going to talk a lot about storytelling in rain in the second half of next week’s show. Great, because i would really encourage people will listen to that or has, uh, stories are just absolutely essential when working with volunteers, which what is it that you love about? Fund-raising it seems, lives transformed, you know, the i’ve had so many people, you know, talk to me over the years and say things like, man, i can’t do that, you know, that’s begging for me, it’s not begging, you know, i tell people, you know, a panhandler bag. A fundraiser transforms lives. Yes. Give us a story. Give tell a little story about some some life that you’ve seen transformed our lives. Yeah, i was actually influenced in developing this model by doing a capital campaign. And, uh, when i did this capital campaign, i was working for an organization that provides services to people of developmental disabilities. And, um, there were about seventy people that we had living in a nursing home, and we wanted to shut that nursing home down and make it possible for them to live in a small group, homes. And there was one guy, particularly, uh, and, uh, i want to give his name, but i would talk to him. And any time this topic came about pizza, you know me. I like peace and quiet. And he was living in an extremely noisy nursing home, you know? And, uh, i remember we did this campaign. You know, it was a tremendous dahna taking for the organization never dahna campaign before raising one point, two million dollars dahna, uh, community of, you know, seven thousand people. And i went and visited him in his new home. And that was so moving you. Know to see him, you know, getting the peace and quiet and he’s long he probably living this nursing home for twenty years or so, you know, and see his life. How has changed? It was just amazing just by having a quiet environment very touching. Yeah, rich, we have just a minute left. I’m going to hold you to that. But can you tell us what? What lesson? What a lesson that we might all take from the mennonite community around fund-raising of the mineral rights. Uh, not only do fund-raising but they’re also very action oriented. One of their one of our services called mennonite disaster surface and so many knights from all over the u s will go to places where tornadoes go through hurricanes and they’ll clean up. No, they were down in in er not bad. Duitz of louisiana, new orleans, new orleans yeah, you know, helping clean green. And i remember hearing the stories of, you know, incredible work that they did buy the good friend who is on their way. I have to stop their rich shirt rich boss is joining us from rural illinois where he’s, the leader of a mennonite community. He’s, the author of green light, fund-raising, which you’ll find at green light fund-raising dot org’s rich. Thank you so much for being on. Yeah, thankyou. Tony, i really appreciate being here. It’s been my pleasure. Thank you. Now we take a break, and when we return it’s tony’s, take two little more live listener love and then gene and emily on fiscal sponsorships. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot order or a nj dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. I’m ken berger of charity navigator. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Welcome back, we got live listener love going out to laurel, maryland and also malaysia. I don’t know which city in malaysia, but laurel, maryland, malaysia welcome tony’s take to my block this week encourages people to listen to the show you are obviously already past that, so i have the advanced course for you. I want you to know that i continue the conversation from the show in the linked in group last week, i had a follow up question for michael o’brien about civil disobedience, which we didn’t get a chance to talk to talk about in his conversation around grassroots organizing, and this week, as i mentioned, the templates and other resource is from rich foss will be in that linked in group. They’ll also be on the facebook page, so next time you’re on linked in, please check out our group and join also twitter no there’s me and the hashtag, and you can follow me on twitter the hashtag of courses non-profit radio if you want to know who the guests are going to be each week, i send email alerts every thursday on the facebook page. My voice just broke thursday like i’m twelve again, um and you can sign up for those email alerts. I just said that on the facebook page and then you’ll know in advance for the guests are maybe you don’t care. I understand you may just be subscribing and you don’t really care who’s going to be on because you know that the guests are all going to be smart and that the host is in question, but you can always count on good guest. Um, i also won four square. If you want to connect with me on four square, i’ll see where you are in the world and you can see where i hang out. Check me out on foursquare and that is the end of tony’s take two for friday, august twenty fourth, the thirty sixth show of the year we have jean takagi and emily chan gene is the principle of neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group in san francisco, he edits the popular non-profit law blogged dot com and he’s g tak g ta k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at neo-sage she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit law blogged, and she is the american bar association’s two thousand twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer i don’t know why she’s still on the show. I’m sure she can have certain you could do better than this. Now that you have that appellation, you can follow emily chan on twitter she’s at emily chan, jean and emily welcome back. Hi, tony. Tony. Hello, emily. You’re still on that. You’re still coming on the show. Thank you for that. Everything about you for having me even if you got the prestigious award. Um, let’s. See, we’re talking about fiscal sponsorships. If there was ever if you ever needed evidence that the contributors choose the topics, this would be it fiscal sponsorships. A little little technical, but i’m willing to go into it. What is jean a fiscal sponsorship? Well, i’m gonna try to get a dog in jail. Yeah. Good luck. Were already there. Fiscal sponsorship let’s define this before out and its most common form. It’s. Really a way to start a non-profit project without creating a whole new nonprofit organizations. So basically, what happens? You’ve got a charitable project or an idea that you want to implement. You bring it to a charity willing to serve as the fiscal sponsor on who’s willing to operate that program within the organization so it becomes a negro part of that organization. And you reserve the right by contact. Be able to move the project to another physical sponsor if things don’t work out or you could even move it into your own nonprofit organization that you form once you know that the project is viable. That’s great. Thank you. Okay, you cut out a little bit. There is great incubator, i believe, is what you said, right? That’s okay, so we have the sponsor. Is it the sponsor? And the sponsoring? Is that how we should be referring to these two? Mostly referred to them as a sponsor and the proud sponsor and project. Okay, all right. We’ll keep our terms straight. Okay? And could gene could the could the project be another charity or that that’s? Not that’s, not how it works. Well, the like a smaller charity could be a smaller another charity don’t have to apply for tax exemption. Just actually running a program that you’ve introduced to another charity. And so you’re kind of head of that program. But the program is owned by the other to charity with the caveat that you, khun, take that program and bring it to another charity if the relationship sours in some way. Okay, okay, now, emily, i’m going to guess we would we would only want as a sponsor of our project. Oh, and established charity. Yes, picking the right physical sponsor is a huge part of getting the advantages of a physical sponsorship relationship, as jeanne mentioned. You know, they have a lot of control over the project. They take on a lot of responsibility generally with, like the admin and all the back office things, and they’re also managing the funds that would help fund your project that you definitely want to pick someone or excuse me of charity that has a good reputation in the community has some experience, possibly with physical sponsorship already. So they have the process is in place and one that aligned well with the mission. Otherwise you’re going to run into a certain problems. Sure. Well, and i would imagine a charity wouldn’t wouldn’t take you as a project if there wasn’t mission alignment, hopefully not. And that is a big part for the physical sponsor to be sure that they understand why. They’re taking on certain projects. Sometimes, you know, you’re so eager to want to help a charitable project that you do start to go outside of your own mission without, you know, taking care of your organization. Emerge. That’s risky. Mission creep. Mission creep. Okay, now what? Um what should a charity be looking? Oh, no, wait. I want to want to ask you, emily, you mentioned that the sponsor manages the money, so the money doesn’t belong to the project. It belongs to the sponsor. That’s correct. So entertainment in the typically a project that doesn’t already have tax exempt status, would it really make sense in that situation? So essentially, the physical sponsor is taking in money for the charitable purposes of the project, but that sinful sponsor, in order to not essentially acted like a conduit or to collapse and basically give money teo, non exempt entity. They have to have discretion and control over the funds. So there’s a certain level of oversight that the physical sponsors should be exercising with the project to make sure that it’s no operating properly, that the money being used the right way and that at every juncture, essentially when it does. You use the money to fund a project that is making that decision as opposed to just letting it pass through. Okay. And when you refer to the non exempt entity that’s, the that’s, the project. Right. Okay. Okay, let’s, stay with you, emily. So what’s the advantage for an existing charity cause our clients. Sorry. Our listeners are our charities mostly. And when you guys were first on the very first show that you two were on, we talked about alternatives to creating a new five. Oh, one c three charity. And we just barely touched on this subject. S o we have we have talked about altum other alternatives to creating a charity, but what’s the advantage to an established charity. Emily tbe a fiscal sponsor of projects for the fiscal sponsor it’s really about furthering that sponsored mission. So again, we talked about mission alignment. If you find projects that further, you know, the charitable purpose of your organization, not a huge benefit for the physical sponsor. Additionally, they do take generally a cut of the funds to take care of that back office stuff. I mean, they’re taken care of let’s. Say, you know payroll, you know, their insurance, maybe covering the project. All of these things take some money as well. It’s not really a money maker again. It really should be about furthering the mission. The charitable mission of the existing sponsor. But they do take some money generally in order to cover their cost. Ok. So now, gene, i assume we can just look to the internal revenue code and that will lay out these fiscal sponsorship responsibilities and relationships. Actually, no tony physical sponsor ship is not defined in any laws. I don’t think any state laws and definitely not in the internal revenue code so it’s all about the contract. So we want to make sure that you’re working with an established sponsor who can establish the right contacts to comply under the regular five a onesie, three rules. Holy cow. All right. So eyes. So there must be things that are supposed to be in these contracts. And again, were you know, our listeners are are the charities. So if somebody’s going to take this on this fiscal sponsorship because they do see mission alignment and the things that emily described? What what’s your advice around creating this? Contract if there’s there’s no statutes governing this relationship well, this may sound a little funny, but you’ve got to talk to the lawyers think this arrangement for the does that lawyer have to be the outstanding young lawyer of twenty twelve from the american bar association? You can’t go wrong with that, right? That’s what you absolutely cannot just outstanding and it’s in the title, so we know, but in case you don’t happen to have access to emily, although through the internet there’s no reason anybody shouldn’t be hiring emily, but you’re right, so you definitely this is definitely a legal relationship, and you need a lawyer drafting this contract, right? And to understand your responsibilities as a sponsor, there’s a great book out there from a no attorney colleague of ours, greg colvin called physical sponsorship six ways to do it right. And there’s, a organization called the national network of fiscal sponsors that publishes guidelines for fiscal sponsors and their best practices, including what they put into a physical sponsorship, agreements and policies. Those are definitely things that wanted checked out. Okay, and how does your friend, your colleague, spell his last name? Greg coben, ceo b i n okay. The guru of fiscal okay. Six ways to do it right. But there’s probably dozens of scores of ways to do it wrong. I’m sure in fact we actually put out a block both staying six days to do it wrong. So they definitely are. Did you? Okay, let sze not a copyright infringement. Wait, you do intellectual property work over there in the non-profit exempt organizations law group, not it out you don’t that’s. Very convenient. Okay, so it could very well be a copyright infringement. No, i’m sure it’s not a lawyer now. It’s fair. You some sure or something? I don’t know who does. Okay, so, emily let’s go into a little detail about structures around this sponsor project relationship and just we have about two minutes before first break. So what? What does it look like? Yeah, the structures, there’s models? Yes, there are. There are a handful model that actually comes out of that book that great colden. I wrote that gene mentioned the most popular one is the one that we we’ve been discussing. Model a also called the comprehensive or excuse me. Comprehensive physicals, sponsorship or direct project and it’s, when the charity basically houses the project, okay, in terms of all the management and the insurance and all that, all those things that you laid out, right, so it would be just like any other program it’s operating. Except for that caveat that is a relationship to find my contract. And there is a contemplation that the project may leave at some point. Ok, i don’t model a not a very clever name. I mean, i thought great could come up with something better than model a, but we’ll work with it. He’s the he’s, the guru. So we’ll work within his his, uh, sort of lacklustre. Um, his his, uh what i want to call this this is the, uh uh, i can’t think of the word i’ll think of it later. Okay, um and so all these things that you talked about before these all have to be in the contract, right? In terms of management responsibilities and insurance and oversight and all this it should be. And again, it just helps to lay out exactly what this relationship is going to look like because of the fact that it’s defined by the contract, i mean any pickles sponsorship could look a little different from another one. That is important to contemplate as much as possible at the outset as opposed to finding those problems. When you start trying to do this, ok. And the one that interested me, that gene mentioned a couple times is the right to leave the, uh, leave the, uh the the sponsor. Yeah. So that’s, very important for both the project on the sponsor to understand what terms and conditions might apply for that. So in some cases, maybe this sponsor is going to require that the project finds another five oh, one c three entity to house it. Maybe they’re willing, teo, do some other kind of due diligence to grant those funds that they held for those charitable purposes to the project. These are all things that you really want to think about beforehand. Ok, ok. Rubric. That was the word i was looking for. Model a is a rubric. This all falls under the rubric of model a i do. It was the board would come to me rubric. Of course, we’re going to take a break. And when we return, gene and emily stay with me. And we continue talking about fiscal sponsorships. That’s, another rubric. Com. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance, focus and motivation? Then you need a spire athletic consulting stop, second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it, aspire, athletic, insulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back. We’re talking. Toa jean takagi and emily chan are regular legal contributors about fiscal sponsorship. I want to send live listener love out to little wet british columbia, canada, and i apologize if from mispronouncing it, if it’s in the way or something different than i just said it, i apologize. We got last week, we had ontario in ottawa, where’s, where’s, saskatchewan. Why is saskatchewan in manitoba? Never checked in alberta? Never checked in. We need to get these provinces listening live gene let’s, turn to you and see what else we might flush out about other models around fiscal sponsorship. So since we have the very rich model, eh, there must be a model b. There are the model ate a model at the rubric. Okay, rubrics, the lackluster rubrics. I’m sorry. I’m sorry for your colleague. I’ll stop calling them lackluster. So okay, what does model be matter or or his model? See better than be? Or how does this work? Well, model is by far the most common form. Okay? I was believed to be that in, like, eighty to ninety percent of the cases. The next biggest is model b, which is called a preapproved brandt relationship models this is you cut out a little bit there. This is model season charlie model using bravo baizman bravo is not as popular as sees charlie that’s. Right? So shouldn’t see bebe. It kind of flows from the structure of the i don’t know if we can recommend this book anymore. No obstacle. Ok, tell us about model charlie model charlie is the way that an existing non-profit that still doesn’t have tax exempt status, perhaps it’s a fight to the irs but hasn’t received determination yet. Khun starts to get fun now. The sponsor can act as an intermediary if you will receiving grants intended for the project, but foundations aren’t willing to. That project until it has its own five. Oh, one team status. So it gives it to the fiscal sponsor. The fiscal sponsor re granted to the project. But it has to use its own expression and control in order to make that re grant. The foundation’s put the onus on the fiscal sponsor to do all the due diligence. Okay, emily, how does this differ from model a alfa? I’m in a lot of ways, actually. So going back to model a it’s, the project is not its own entity. It’s really? Just a program, essentially that’s being operated by the fiscal sponsors. So all the employees, all the volunteers, all the liability, it’ll sit with the physical sponsor model. See, you have more separation. So he mentioned that its own entity now the project. Maybe. You know, it’s, just the taxable corporation. It might be in its period right now. Where? It’s, waiting for its five twenty three determination. So a lot of more of the liability from that program that it’s running a charitable project with the entity. The other entity, not the physical sponsor. Okay, so this is it. Shifting the responsibility is different. That’s how? It’s different than a okay, emily, what are some examples of fiscal sponsors like could could’ve come? It is a community foundation of fiscal sponsor or could it be? It could be they’re really as there is no riel limitation on who could be or what type of entity could be a physical sponsor. Generally speaking, you see it more calmly and just five a onesie three entities, because they’re able to get those contributions that can offer a tax deduction to individuals as well as bring in some private foundation grant. So you see it a lot with five eleven three entities, but as far as the mission of those entities or what it is that they’re doing this there’s no limitation on that, okay? And just we have just a minute left. Emily, where do we usually see this conversation begin? Does it does it start with the ceo of the of the sponsor thinking about bringing in projects or just started the board level where i think it actually starts with the project approaching on today’s out there that either have already decided to do it? But i think most commonly, it might start with the project. That is looking for a physical sponsor. Gene could shed somewhere like him and he actually sits on the board of community initiative, which is a physical. Okay, jean, we have just thirty seconds. Do you want to shed some light as emily cast it upon you? Sure, there’s a website called fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s, which is a good place to find a physical sponsor in your area or in your eyes. Area service. So that’s a good face to go to community foundations often engage in sponsorships and sometimes there sponsoring a project that our collaboration amongst many existing non-profit organization okay, we have to leave. I’m sorry, we have to leave it there. But that website again was fiscal sponsored directory dot org’s jean takagi. Principle of neo non-profit exempt organizations law group emily chan and attorney at neo-sage even emily, thank you very much. It’s. Always a pleasure will talk to you next month. And also, of course, want to thank rich fast for being on the show next week. We’re pre recorded because i’ll be on vacation in beautiful block island, rhode island next week. We’ll have. I had a great interview, but i didn’t get the job suzanne felder was with me at fund-raising day this past june. She’s, a consultant in outplacement for lee hecht harrison and she has advice around job search. Then, as i mentioned earlier storytelling with rochelle shoretz, founder and executive director of shark charette, they have built a culture of compassionate storytelling to help their members through their cancer diagnoses and treatments. Rochelle will have really valuable ideas on helping your charity create stories and who’s best to tell them, and she has her own touching story as a two time breast cancer survivor. Come, i want to shut out one more live listener love right here in the studio, indianapolis, indiana in the studio actually, carmel, indiana, to be exact live listener love in the studio, you know that i host a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy? Did you know that? Did you know i do it’s fund-raising fundamentals? That one is a ten minute monthly podcast and it’s on ly devoted to fund-raising topics i have a summer siri’s going on on grantspace eking the latest is building relationship with foundation program officers, and the first two were researching foundations and writing winning proposals. It’s called fund-raising fundamentals you’ll find on the chronicle of philanthropy website. You’ll also find it on itunes, continuing to wish you good luck. The way performers do around the world last week was chalk us, which means chicken in australia, in slang australian do you remember why they say chicken? You’re gonna have to go back and listen, i don’t have time to tell you today from spain monisha merida, a lot of ship, it comes from the success of a play. People would arrive at shows by carriage and what pulls a carriage, horses and what their horses leave behind shit. So the more of that you have, the better your show is. So i wish you much mierda for the week. Our creative producers claire meyerhoff, with this kind of content it’s hard to believe we have a creative producer, actually. But there is actually is one but she’s not responsible for these language lessons and this performing that comes from janice taylor. So i want to thank janice taylor. Sam liebowitz is today’s line producer shows social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, how i hope you will be with me next week. One, two, two p, m eastern on talking alternative broadcasting at talking alternative dot com. Durney dahna. I think a good ending. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get anything. Cubine hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks. Been radio. 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