I love our sponsors!
Do you want to find more prospects & raise more money? Pursuant is a full-service fundraising agency, leveraging data & technology.
WegnerCPAs. Guiding you. Beyond the numbers.
Credit & debit card processing by telos. Payment processing is now passive revenue for your org.
Fundraising doesn’t have to be hard. Txt2Give makes it easy to receive donations using simple text messages.
Listen Live or Archive:
- On Fridays at 1pm Eastern: Talking Alternative Radio and tune in
- Listen to the August 3, 2018 archived podcast
Robert Penna: How We Got Here, Revisited
In June 2016, Dr. Robert Penna shared an early, partial excerpt of the book he was working on. The book is published and he’s back to explain the unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s nonprofit sector. His book is “Braided Threads.”
Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.
Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.
Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
Processed on: 2018-11-11T23:53:17.251Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2018…08…401_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20180803.mp3.826818153.json
Path to text: transcripts/2018/08/401_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20180803.txt
Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I break out into papel idema if i saw that you missed today’s show how we got here revisited in june twenty sixteen dr robert penna shared an early partial excerpt of the book he was working on. The book is published and he’s back to explain the un project unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s non-profit sector. His book is braided threads tony steak, too sunshine and bees we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p wagner sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers whether cps dot com bye, tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine every. Glad welcome dr robert m penna bob back to the studio. He’s, the author of the new book braided threads ah, historical overview of the american non-profit sector he served five years as a consultant to charity navigator, and also as an outcomes consultant to the world scout bureau. Indeed, his last book was the non-profit outcomes toolbox, which we talked about on this very show he’s presented before non-profit organizations and associations across the u s and in canada, poland, kenya, saudi arabia and australia. Bob is a native of the bronx, new york, and he still sounds like it. Even though he lives in wilmington, north carolina. You’ll find him in his book at braided threads. Dot com welcome back, bob penna, thank you very much for a little closer, having thank you very much, ma’am ing my pleasure. Thank you. Get for coming to the studio. This braided threads overview overview let’s see what you know we’re i think i think you make the point, there’s just not enough of an appreciation among those of us in the nonprofit sector. Was it snow where we’re from, where we came from, where he came from? Well, i think a lack of knowledge about the east sector is probably throughout the population, but for those of us that work in it, most people never stop to think about where that’ll come from on dh like so much else around us, we americans are notorious for lack of a historical sense. Generally, we just kind of accept that, you know, okay, that mall was built for my convenience right before i was born, forgetting about what was there before being a former got in when they was wanting the same thing with sector people just accept it for what it is today, and you’d only don’t know the real size of the really dramatic economic impact, and i thought that that story ought to be told it actually started a zit. What i thought was a chapter in another work, and it got a cz bigas a book and it was to me a fascinating, fascinating story what’s the thread that you think is most important resiliently through the history resiliency in other words, it has changed. The reason was called braided threads is because it is not one unbroken series of events that took place in sequential owner and all in one line is a metaphor really, for the history on dh the strength i thought both of the sector that there are all these different things that were happening, that when they were woven together, gave us what we have today s so that’s where the title came from. But if you had to pick one thing, i think it’s a story of resiliency is it’s a story of before it was a formal sectors such as it is today, it still wasn’t movement, it was it was a things that people were doing, and it ricocheted off of reacted too, but also impacted events for over two hundred years. You’re clear to point out that it’s not a history of non-profits no it’s, how the non-profit sector evolved because of discreet events in history. Well, that’s, why it’s called overviewing in other words, i didn’t start out with day one and try to give chronologically month by month, year by year. What i did was i looked at what i thought were the most impactful things that happened during or to the history of the sector, and those are things i wrote about now, um, i’m not sure we’re going to go strictly chronological way made the book isn’t actually strictly chronological. They’re places where i have to double back now. When you were on last time, we talked about elizabeth, importantly elizabeth the first. But i know martin luther piques your interest. I thought more pre-tax pre-tax essex. His shame. By about sixty years i particularly thought it was interesting, because if you look at the sector today is largely secular humanist not that there aren’t religious or religiously affiliated organizations in it, but it is not a religious sector. I mean, generally speaking, not that there aren’t religious organizations and affiliations, but it is a very humanistic secular. In some cases, you might sit liberal. I don’t know of movement. And yet it’s roots were distinctly religious. So how did that break happened? Why did that break happened? Where’d it personally, i trace it. Back to a martin luther in the reformation. So you’re how? Because up until then i mean again, and this is not to be focused on just one, you know, ethnicity or religious tradition. This is certainly not to leave anybody else out, but the truth of the matter is that europe was catholic ever since. You know, constantine made it the catholicism of christianity, the official religion of the empire on three thirty, eighty europe was catholic, and then comes along martin luther and he initiates along with few other people of the reformation. And his biggest point was that unlike where the catholic church that it was faith and good works that got you in heaven, martin luther with sola feed a faith alone, you split them and he said, you could do all the good works you want. They’re not going to get you into heaven faces, and he divided it at that point and that crack that infant dismal hairline crack got wider and wider and wider and wider people began to realise overtime. Maybe they never even articulated it but became a sense that there were certain things you do because they’re right not because it’s an extra two points to get into heaven. This tradition had not existed there. Two four and that’s. Why? I peg one of the first first steps towards what we have today in particularly united states with martin luther and now s o and then queen elizabeth. Queen elizabeth was important. Yes, for now. If listeners want to go back, you could go back. Teo. June twenty, sixteen show we talked for about a half an hour. Not all about queen elizabeth, but we talked to fair amount about her more than we’re going to today. But you could go toe twenty martignetti dot com search bob’s last name penna p e n n a. And that june twenty sixteen showed last time he was on. Well, well, appear to you. Okay. Place very quickly. Queen elizabeth, wait time. Okay. Queen elizabeth in sixty, no one issued something. It was called a statute of charitable uses and what she did, wass andi it’s not say this had never happened before, but she codified with the idea that things that were of civic and civil benefit could be appropriate targets of charitable givings, what’s things. Founding of funding of schools self-funding of scholars, the building of bridges, the building of causeways though ransoming of prisoners. All of these things were in this list. So what was she doing there? She was a further secularizing charity. But be she was putting into the charitable pot things that their two four had not been considered charity charity. But charity was always personal to help poor now, she’s moving far away from help the poor bridges, bridges, bridges, cause whillans and ransoming hostages. Or also putting together a sort of a charitable part for the dowry for port maidens. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There was things that today you might call it the social engineering or what? What not. But the point is, it was no longer the idea that charity always was always had to be about helping the poor. So first, martin luther breaks off the idea of these good deeds to having nothing to do with getting into heaven. And then she comes along sixty years later and says, on top of that charitable activity, things that are good for the community and not necessarily what was the thought of his personal charity putting the coin in the beggar’s hand beyond martin luther religion, the evolution of religion i think it has something important, tremendous, particularly united states. We’re probably going to hit religion a bunch of times, but give us an overview of why, why you say tremendous? Well, i would say two reasons first off, because of the impact of puritans, if you wouldn’t mind me mentioning another author, collinwood guards book american nations, he makes that what’s his name colin would guard okay, american nations in yur forward or your introductions in the introduction. Okay? And he makes the point that they were founding culture’s here in the united states, and one of these founding cultures he calls yankee dm basically the puritan culture. And the thing of it is that that had a tremendous impact because their world view they were the on ly one’s coming here amongst the settlers amongst the french, the spanish, the swedes, everyone else who came here, who came with this idea of creating a better society. We’ve all heard that turn the city on the hill. Yeah, john winthrop, in their mayflower compact, was writing this down and was saying that amongst the things we’re going to do is every person has to be responsible for every other person built into the dna of that colony and what it became eventually, in terms of one of the i was so dominant cultures of the united states, was this concept that we have a responsibility, a civic, civil union, responsibility for helping each other. We’re going come backto winthrop, one of the new england puritans, right? We’re gonna take a break, okay? Pursuant they did a round up for you and included a video they’re paper is pursuing e-giving outlook. We took the latest fund-raising reports and boiled them down to what you need to know a round up the takeaways. Plus they have ah, webinar which is archived. You can get both the content paper and the webinar of naturally you know where they are. They’re on the listener landing page. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for ah, please. And i guess pursuant also. Now back to how we got here. Revisited revisited. Eso let’s. Jump ahead. We may come back. Like i said, i may not chronological but you mentioned winthrop, new england puritan new england puritans were different than in terms of their there. The concept of charity then the southern it was also okay. The pioneer was also had a lot to do with was the way they set their society of if you think of the south, the first off there was the tidewater southie, maryland, virginia, northern north carolina. That was one society. But then there was what we came to know for better il as the south, eventually the confederacy it’s that will start in south carroll. It was a plantation. Both of these were actually plantation societies, and these plantations were largely self sufficient. So amongst the things they didn’t do, they didn’t worry about having a public school. It was the rich to care of their own children. They had tutors, or perhaps they sent the children away someplace, but they didn’t worry about public schools or didn’t matter, and the poor didn’t matter need education neither white nor black. It didn’t matter. So all the things that we take now as thinking their earmarks of society, their marks of civilization, they didn’t exist down there. Conversely, the first things you did in new england was you where’s, the village green. The church is going to be at one end congregations of course, the school’s going to be the other end. Everybody supported it through their taxes. So right there you have a division. This then later was reflected in terms of things like the pieces of civil society that you and i would consider to be a charitable efforts. They didn’t exist in the south since religion is a thread. That, yes, it’s very important. The congregationalists. In that time, they were the they were the state and the state religion in massachusetts. Just a massachusetts in massachusetts. Rhode island, connecticut. I’ve really askew for went for the south. It became the anglicans. In fact, the anglicans were minority in massachusetts. And what what became a pro? You know what? You don’t see a pilgrim church or a puritan church anymore. They became the congregationalists which were supported by taxes, taxes, taxes, the older. So i mean it’s a complete you know, this is obviously all pre revolution pre cut free constitution, but right in that in that day, we had state religions. Yes, yes. In every every, every colony, some of the northern state, every common. Okay, could not, you know, including eventually. You know, as things got more settled. Down south, the anglicans, the angle of the church of england was the state church. So for example, in virginia had to d institutionalized the anglican church so taxes wouldn’t go to it anymore. But it did have this thread tony of of how religion impacted it. It goes to his whole story, because when the minister is no longer part of the government, so to speak they had to find a new role. You had other sects that came along after the second great awakening amongst them, the baptists, the methodist, they were incredibly influential because they had they would have a little formal theology that others had it was that’s why you would hear a baptist preacher referred to his brother parsons or something, because they weren’t ordained ministers in many cases, and because of that lack of formality number one they could they didn’t church necessarily they get preach under a tree. But secondly, they also had a much more accessible kind of idea the way they approached it. And a lot of what we see today came from specifically the baptist evangelicals and the method like art. What about some of these traditions? That well, for example. The first first nationwide survived it. The first nationwide charities you want call were bible in tract associations, and they were all run by, funded by and pushed by these southern of evangelicals, methodists and baptists. And that became, like the first nationwide charities, the precursors of all the big ones. You know, today they were the first ones who are, like coast to coast. What else is there another tradition that you can? I think i think another tradition i would connect is ah, the activism of many, many groups. So for example, going back to the abolition of slavery, which, of course, started of all places in boston. Boston was the home of the abolitionist movement, and a lot of the people of there were religiously affiliated. But it is also true that during reconstruction and wanting a lot of the quote, charitable work that was done down there amongst the freedman, that much the freed slaves, etcetera, was done by northern methodist and northern baptists. So this this threat duitz involvement. But they weren’t doing it necessarily for the same reasons that going back to, you know, the fourteen hundreds the catholic slash christians were giving money to the poor that was trying to buy their way in heaven, it slowly, completely different. This was this was a our contribution to society. Exactly it was, it was like a second in the nation beyond was a secular act being done by people who for who belong to, ah, a particular denomination, in this case, it’s. Interesting to see the degree of do get things back, you know, go back to the anti war movement during the sixties, how many of those people marching there were protestant ministers? Many of the many of them were methodists, and they’re baptised. This strain never went away. What was, i’m jumping way ahead. Now we’ll come back to the constitution and separation churches, they but ancient greek, greece, rome, egypt what was what was the conception of charity that well, egypt is a vary by empire. Generally speaking, i mean, even in egypt there are their hyre hyre koegler fix have been found and has been translated that roughly say that you know your place in the afterlife, but depending on how you treated people people in this life, so you might say there was that kind of charity in greece in rome, charity was much more what queen elizabeth did. In other words, the idea was particularly in rome, if you want to get ahead and you want to be noticed. So let’s say you’re in the army and you want to move into politics. You were high up in the army, you would spend stuff, you would spend money on things that the public could enjoy, like you would build a public bath. Or perhaps you i would pay for a temple to athena or some small thing of this nature. But the idea was the charity in those days did the poor didn’t count to the poor didn’t exist on anybody’s radar screen. You had totally different perspective of human nature, human. Value. And it was for your own. It was very good for your own good. Everyone over here, right. Career. So writer’s career development. But the whole idea was to just i could spend four hundred bucks. Goto unconference then i would have had to build a temple to athena. Or you could today you could make a big donation to a hospital and put a plaque on the wall with your name. This is twenty martignetti wink. Yeah, i’d rather build a temple, but okay. That’s. Interesting. All right. Thank you. So so let’s go. All right. So now we have our constitution, our bill of rights, things first amendment geever obviously religion. No, no state religion and and separation of church and state. And so how did these factor into these factored in three different ways on the one part of those? The first amendment is the right of assembly, which the british kept an eye on when they were when they were in charge. Well, now you could formally have. You could have the group meetings you could organize again to worry about. Perhaps the king’s soldiers would come and say, break this up while you six. People was gathering here. One of the things that people did was they formed organisations do toqueville. I wrote back in eighteen thirty something when he wrote his famous his famous review of a matter of america based upon his tour that americans were already organizing for virtually everything you name the thought, music, culture of politics, something that they thought of americans were organizing. He hasn’t has a comment that says where in england you will find a a ah a personal great wealth for prominence heading up an effort will where in france you will find the government doing that in america you virtually always find it being done by a citizen’s organization interested. So this could be a total was here, and with the early twenties, you know, first twenty years or so of american independence. I mean, i believe he wrote democracy in america somewhere around eighteen thirty four and these were already his reflections by eighteen twenty the new england area already had over two thousand of these citizen voluntary organisations they were the precursors of today’s non-cash lorts yeah. And how were they structured? What do we know about their organ? It was structured. Like they were structured, sort of, as you know, an association they had by-laws they had officers what they didn’t have was either illegal corporate identity, nor did they have any sort of physical power because the laws that created what we call today a corporation, yeah didn’t exist back then. All right, so we’re doing, like, early to mid eighteen hundreds, are they? Are they doing their own independent fund-raising yes, they were well, they were doing the way calling us, and there were no bodies description that would call it a subscription to put out a subscription players subscription request. Andi, it was today’s. Fund-raising but they called it a subscription, but the key things in those days were threefold number one, they weren’t incorporated, so they didn’t have a legal standing identity, such as people don’t like about citizens united that whole idea that it didn’t exist. Secondly, they did not have any separate fiscal ability to buy to sell to they didn’t. And the third thing was that the officers or whoever was there, the officers were the identity. So if mrs smith or jones quit and or died very often, the operation would fall apart. Because there’s, no way to keep it going, it was very, very crucial for them to eventually get this right to teo. Incorporate. And one of the most key points about this was that they eventually incorporated under the state laws the laws of their home states. Now, who then control them did the state legislature because it charted them or allow them to incorporate control them? Or were they independent? And there was a crucial of a crucial of court case involving dartmouth university, where by the courts found that even if public money went to these entities and even if in fact he’s public entities these entities were incorporated under state law, legislature couldn’t touch. The legislature could not give the money, but the legislature could not tell them in this case, specifically dartmouth university. What to do that independence was crucial because it allowed these organizations to in many, many, many cases, proceed government in various efforts, whether it was schools for the children of freed former slaves, whether it was schools for today, you’ve called a handicap, the death, the blind they would very often create certainly would call them asylums. Today, in my column, orphanages. For children. And there was one in new york city that was specifically for the, shall we say. Children of prostitutes who might’ve been cold bastards back then or what we call illegitimate nobody. Where did these kids go? What did you do with them? And there were there was a privately funded asylum was created just for those people. Those children for the poor as well, but very old housing as well. Arms houses. They yes, very vory, largely funded by these private entities, but very often, particularly in their city near city under mayor de witt clinton high school androids clinton in the bronx. Yeah, right. Lincoln high. He became he was governor at one point. He was not only when he was mayor. He was also head of one of the largest charitable efforts in the city and was even back then. We’re talking early immigrants. They’re on guessing here, trying to remember eighteen twenty something like that. I don’t remember the exact years of his term of office, but the city was already paying what today would call non-profit to run that run the schools for the poor. So in new york state, particularly this tradition of public money going to a not what we today would call a non-profit to provide a legislatively desirable and socially desirable. And think about it. Tony, this is two thousand eighteen year almost two hundred years later, we’re still doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, i love that around this period, let’s. Take the mid eighteen hundreds of what’s happening in the rest of the country way riese laid our charitable act. Well, slavery and civil war are percolating. And a tremendous number of of effort’s private government effort, a rather private citizen efforts. We’re trying to have a slave trade stopped because constitution originally said that the government could not do anything even in the slave trade, not slavery, but the trade for twenty years. So this effort was going on for a long time and was all be done by citizens in ninety nine percent of up north. Ah, a lot of them either spurred by or inspired by the culture of yankee dome, which was spreading across the country at that point. I mean, think about through from the mohawk valley to the ohio valley way spread from east west. And this culture came with us and the number of people who felt that this was a, uh, scar on our national character increased. And i mean, you’ve heard, you know, the missouri compromise bleeding kansas. We all know what? Well, the things that led up to the civil war, but what was while that was going on, there was this tremendous effort to, among other things, abolish slavery, but at the same time, penal reform. Ah, reform of t end was biggest show in new york. Hamilton, right? Hamilton and burr dueling outlaw dooling also thes air efforts by the various office or he’s working it by these writings organizations. Now, the term non-profit didn’t come along until nineteen. Fifty. Okay, yeah, we’re gonna get well the right to tax exemption. Ok, but by these are a penal reform. What can you think of other examples? What they were doing around this time? Well, was very, very interesting amongst the subscription today we have you know, this there’s everybody’s familiar with the term five a one c three. Well, the three denotes one level of five o one. See, they’re actually twenty nine of them. Well, one of them one of the earliest was what was called mutual society. Sort of mutual aid or mutual. Today there are mutual insurance companies which are non-profit they started back then the ideas you would again have a subscription and if a fire hit your house, this would pay money to you to get you back on your feet. This was another month non-profit effort that didn’t exist, benjamin, for every year where i guess i remember benjamin franklin, but every year i get my subscribers check from yusa, right? A mutual mutual benefit insurance conference company and now and bank, right, ben franklin. Ben franklin is credited with founding amongst the first off non-profit things in united states that volunteer fire court in philadelphia, one of the first libraries, the junior society, these were all today you’d call them non-profit ever efforts that he founded in philadelphia before the revolution. So again, this was but, interestingly enough, not down south, yeah, not down self. Once you started to get to his around the north carolina border, you didn’t see them because of the plantation economy because of the culture, but didn’t have a specific there wasn’t a civic civic sense. We have a community center. It was this my plantation, right? We take care of everything here. This is why two of the most revolution of things that happened down there was thomas jefferson’s, founding of the university of virginia north carolina’s found in one of the first state universities in the country because that was unheard of down there. It was just unheard of. So all of these efforts, as they say, we’re primarily northern. We have about a minute before the break the tax exemption. I feel like this is a good time. When did that? When did that attacks its first tax exemption started way, way, way back. Because you have to ask about which taxes so it’s probably gonna be more than wasn’t religion okay? Wasn’t religion, the religion first exemption religion and then also schools and things, things, things of that nature. So go back to them. Yeah, right. It broadened. But i started with okay, so we tease it together and always do. Thank you very much. Always a tease and i need to take a break. Weinger cps. He coached to you heard him on last. Week’s show the four hundredth very good guy. Check out the firm, then talk to him. Why? I g eat. Of course. No pressure. Tell him what you need that he’ll tell. You, whether weinger cps, can help you, of course. And if they can, then you know that help will extend beyond the numbers. Do the research talk tio get started at wagner cpas dot com. Now time for tony steak, too, who brings a sunshine to your mission? I’m urging you dive deep and think hard about who in your organ is critical to your mission. The worker bees, the hero worker bees often not seen tell their stories. Let’s. Start telling the behind the scenes stories, usual your digital storytelling capacity, and share this critical work with people who don’t see it. Because these air, not too forward facing people in your organization, your donors, you’re bored, you’re volunteers, even maybe even you know, if you’re big enough, maybe even employees. It’s, you know, this is the inside baseball, which is ironic, but that’s, as far as i could go with a sports metaphor. But i’ve heard of this thing it’s it’s called baseball and has touchdowns so people love this stuff. People who are outside it may be typical an ordinary to you but it’s not to people who don’t live it like you do every day. There’s more on my video at tony martignetti dot com we got to do the live love and were exploding west covina, california nan, you at new york pen sock in new jersey, rehoboth beach, delaware. Oh, i was in. I was in. Bethany had a very nice week. Very close to rehoboth. Live love, live love, delaware, new jersey. We got more in new york, but manual and california, tampa, florida west, long beach, new jersey looking new jersey exploding. Nan you at new york. Salt lake city, utah, new york, new york, multiple brooklyn, new york is here. New bern, north carolina is here. Live love to each of you, each of you on going abroad. Look, there’s! A whole page of going abroad. My god, it’s! Unbelievable! Manchester a sincere own paraguay ottawa. Tashkent, uzbekistan. Munich, germany. Iran, mexico city, mexico, santa catarina two new in guatemala, sudan we have a listener in sudan. We’ll show for the center in pakistan, so you know asia, oh, my goodness, live love, teo each of our live listeners love goes out thank you so much, and the podcast pleasantries to our over thirteen thousand. Now i’m pretty comfortable saying thirteen thousand, you know, sometimes some shows don’t quite reach that threshold, but enough have that i’m declaring it so podcast pleasantry store over thirteen thousand listeners you may be you may you may be listening six hours in a row. I don’t know, however you bunch them up pleasantries to you, thanks for being with us and the affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners throughout the country, like claire meyerhoff said last week, and as you’ve heard me say, terrestrial radio is going nowhere. It may not be blowing up like digital, but it will always be with us, so the affections go out to our am and fm listeners and stations across the country. Bob pen is with me. His new book is braided threads a historical overview of the american non-profit sector just get the book because, you know, we can’t do it justice. Of course, you’re interested in how our sector, our community evolved to what it is. Now get the book, you know, we’re hitting some threads, some braided threads, if you will, but you want the full story, you know, even, you know, bob mentioned something like oh, yeah, the dartmouth case, you know, i can’t remember it all just by the thing for pizza. All right, where were we see now i’ve ranted about bees and sunshine and all this live love, where were we? Well, and be me. Now tell me what you also screwed up the whole thing about how about your baseball? But that’s, another thing? Well, you have baseball doesn’t have touchdowns anyway, this donorsearch we’re talking about sex, we’re talking about taxes and tax exemption on that’s what you would ask about that. Thank you. So it started. Religion was the first one. Well, what period are we talking about now? We’re going going back to probably the sixteen hundreds of knows the point of matter-ness what taxes? Alright, what tax? Federal government levied very, very few texas before. That the state’s levy not that many taxes most taxes were on property and very early on churches were exempted from paying those taxes. Now it wasn’t just the church building. It also became the the parsonage where the minister lived. Then if there was a section of the building library, perhaps, then schools obviously we’re not text be they private or be the public clearly in public government is going to tax itself so public institutions like public school would never you were never text, but the idea was that it is the exemption list grew bigger and bigger new york state was obviously this was going on in all states, i happen to have a quite an extensive county in the book of how the new york state list just kept getting broader and broader and broader and broader. At one point, it was interesting because the law was changed to allow organisations that included in their charter or their mission. The enhancement of the minds of young people are something that’s. How the why, god and because the y had tried to get a tax exemption had gone to court, they’ve been turned down, they had to pay the tax bill, but everybody thought, you know why should be enough in this. So why is very interesting to er in the world wars? Well, that’s right in the book, right? That they were also involved. Yeah, this is the book. I don’t know, but what i’m saying is that the y was not really was not mentioned or organizations like yeah, why now you mention new york state? Yes, i love this one thing i want to read for this from seventeen, ninety nine new york state. You you cite new york state as sort of representative represent what was happening around them, what they’re worth, barry issues, but there’s very representative, this is an act for the assessment and collection of taxes new york state seventeen ninety nine excerpt. I won’t be the whole thing, of course, no house or land belonging to any church or place of public worship or any personal property belonging to any ordained minister of the gospel, nor any college or incorporated academy, nor any schoolhouse, courthouse, jail, arms house or property belonging to any incorporated library shall be taxed by virtue of this act, right? And that that was just kept going, as i said at one point, they amend it to include i figure the specific wording was something about the betterment of the minds of young men and women, because there was the y m c a, and the y w, c young, you know, young man’s and young ones christian association. So the law was changed. And basically what the courts said was that the’s operations were doing good. There were doing good things, and with beneficial to society and therefore society it was in society’s interest, but also as just the smart thing to do. We are going to do our bit by supporting them through the extent that we do so bye, alleviating them from the tax burden they were still not call non-profits because that concept him way later, but these organizations thes voluntary or for a long time was called the voluntary sector. The’s oh, yes, that was the name of these organizations increasingly became tax free. What we know today as thie people call them non-profits i’ll do this relatively quickly. One of the last revenue acts of the eighteen hundreds included this idea that these kinds of organizations could be should be exempted from federal taxes that particular revenue actors found unconstitutional. However, when things started to fall into place and you remember it was thie sixteenth amendment that made the income tax legal in the united states when that happened, the recognition that these organizations should be exempt was codified, and it had to be three things. Number one, it had to be incorporated as a non-profit what does that mean? It doesn’t mean they can’t make a profit that can make money know what it means. Is that what any excess extra it has to go back in? Well, it has to go back. And they can. This were contemporaneous with the sixteenth amendment. It was well shortly following them. But what is it? Non-profit means that rather mean doesn’t mean it can’t make money. No, that doesn’t that’s not what i mean what it means. They can’t take that profit and distributed to partners distributed to stockholders. Distribute it has to go back into the pot. That’s number one. The second thing is that no one of its activities can make money for any of the officers. Right? And the third, the third idea. Oh, is that the well, roll sunday, the ideas non-profit none distribute torrey and doing some sort of civic good and so very often was charitable and there was a charitable, educational and the list got, you know, bigger now fairly dilemmas in erry i like that word helium really, really lousy grayce let me share that’s what the reason? Every believe believe that it’s, but maybe you’re right a check, maybe. Alright, remember, i come from the bronx, so i’m different pronunciation. Um, well, you were wrong about you around baseball to sew our from president tax abilities. Alt-right president taxco comes from nineteen fifty four that was the first place where they laid out what we have today, this five oh, one c category and where the general exemption from originally, the idea was that if these organizations made money, they didn’t have to pay a corporate income tax on it. Then it became not legally, but in terms of practice that they are basically free from almost all taxes other than things like excise taxes or taxes on gasoline or something that you pay is part of a bill, which is why the local men’s association will go to a restaurant. And then have the banquet, and they give the the the owner hears my tax free by tax free number, and they won’t have to pay sales tax on the restaurant. Yeah. Okay. So that’s where all that came from, but it was in terms of its codification. Although the roots go back to the sixteen hundreds, codification goes back to nineteen. Fifty four. Okay. Is that the sixteenth amendment was at the sixteenth amendment? Was nineteen. Thirteen that’s? What? Allowed the ink allowed, permitted in income to federal income tax. Right. Okay. Okay. Let’s, uh, were world war i? We saw an expansion. Uh, yes, yes. What? Why? Why? Because because we really well, but because there was no functional way for the government to step in. One of the more fascinating things about it was that the human we’ve been told by the why? The why was the first organization two do what you think in terms like the red cross? You know, pow pow camps. You’re checking on status bringing, you know, president’s part. Nobody did that government sure affected neither the union or the confederate government. It was the why the y m c a that first started this. Bring this service to both sides to the confederates and northern. So they were they were in buy-in confederate pow camps ministering, so to speak, to union prisoners and vice versa. You say that the white was the first large scale service corps. Really? You could say that you you you can’t say that the other s o comes along world will once there was a knee for this but nobody else to do it. Okay, we gotta take a break. Take a break. Tell us you say you need more revenue. Have i heard rumors to that effect? Start your campaign. Talk to the businesses near you and those that are supporting you. Ask if those business people will consider switching their credit card processing to tell us. Explain to them that you will earn fifty percent of the fees that tell us gets you get half that’s the long stream of passive recurring revenue for your non-profit you’re voluntary organisation, check out the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s now back to bob penna the way the y y m c a initially or was and why it was there right now while there’s two there’s one. I am cia, young men’s, christian association and the young women’s which came first. William. Okay, i think so. First, large scale service corps and well, what happened was this. You know, there was when world war one started and there was a need when the americans got involved, when there was a need to again bring services to this army that was being raised, whether it was, you know, outside of fort dix or whether it was, you know, eventually when the ghetto got, of course, the the other side across the pond. Allied expeditionary forces, right? American expeditionary. The whole idea was somebody had to do the same sort of thing. And why was the first one to step in a red cross, eventually join the salvation army, eventually joined. But all of this was being done privately. Meantime, both prior to america’s entry into the war and after it was a tremendous amount of refugee. If you will victims victims, relief. I mean, you know, war is terrible. Whatever ward is and there’s always collateral damage, the people who were displaced, the homes of the destroyed well during war governments don’t stop to worry. About taking care of that, they move on, they want it, they have a war to try to win. So who took care of those people? The refugee problem was tremendous. Belgium became one of the worst sites of it because when the germans invaded belgium, the allies said, well, you have to feed the belgians because most of the belgians of food came from outside. German said, no, we’re not going to be bother doing that were, you know, feeding our trip. You want to give them food, you give them food? Well, it was a relief effort that began in the united states that started working to bring food to belgium. But it was not government. It was all private. It was all voluntary was a what you today with called non-profit before our eyes. Actual pictures, one of the few pictures that are in the book before the war, before the u s got involved in the war when we’re supposed to be officially neutral. Yes, there were organizations raising money for the poor and the suffering and the widows in belgium and france. And but there were also organizations doing the same thing directing money to the german empire, the austria hungarian empire on turkey because we were officially neutral. So there are actually a couple of pictures in the book. I wouldn’t have shaved more pictures, by the way. Well, i like, well, i’m sorry next-gen next book, more pictures, but the whole idea was this entire effort was being done privately after the war massive relief effort run by herbert hoover, most of it not all of it. At that point, the u s government was committing money, but a great deal of it, you know? I don’t know proportion sixty percent maybe was well private today’s uso was formed by a collection of a bunch of the collaboration of a bunch of the organization’s yesterday the y m y w c a regular yeah, that’s, today’s, united service organised, right? Right. And that’s where that it was a coalition that was found was one with first ever like that on the first ever efforts. I mean, there are all sorts of things that happened back then that we we today, for example, you’ve heard of united way everybody knows united way, you know, we’re united what came from i don’t community chest community. Chest and you know it today. Most people know community chess is a sort of a space in the car on the reporter community chest wass local fund-raising specifically for disaster, personal tragedy, private relief. So if you lost your job or the factory burned down and five people lost, the job community chest was was was the entity in each individual community that would they would go to for relief? I mean, maybe if they belong to a particular denomination in the church might help him out as well, you know, temple or, you know, there’s a lot of that. I mean both and there’s a whole section in there on both jewish and catholic specific ah, contributions to what we know today as the american non-profit sector and that that’s interesting reading on on its own. But this isn’t to say the churches were involved, but every community there was no public relief. There was no public welfare. And so if dad died or fell off the roof and broke his leg and couldn’t work, there was no unemployment insurance. It was the worker’s comp people. Very often they went to community chest. What wound up happening was one of the transformative events was, we’ll make coal cooperative fund-raising if everybody fund-raising for fund-raising fund-raising whatever the look, the past tense of that is by themselves, you want with competing appeals and the banging into each other. Well, it actually started to believe it was a cleveland was one of the first ones i know there was one in denver, there was one in detroit, it was one i believe was cleveland. Was this around the is this also the hoover administration non-profits complain where we’re basically testified before congress were basically running over each stepping over each other, trying to trying to help? Oh, yeah, we’ll also show it was at the great depression or no, yes, yes, i know now that was baby. What you’re talking about was world war two upleaf stepping on each other in front of me. All right, that was world war to know what happened was when the when the depression hit sort of the thought was that this community chest step up in community chest tried they would have instead of one annual drive, they’re having to annual drives, they try three, but the problem is we all know was much bigger than anybody could have completed for scene and their efforts were just not up to the fact that the entire economy crashed, which is why government had to get in that well, it was obviously fdr, fdr important appointed harry hopkins to run the relief effort. Harry hopkins thought that it really should be local government that was doing this local governments setting off for the side. They’re very happy not to be involved. So when harry hopkins did was he said, ok, we’re gonna do this and it’s gonna be federal money, but none of the money can go to what today would call non-profits they got completely cut out. That was not right. That was not to punish that i’m no, that was to encourage that was the force, the state’s unwilling states and that had not taken on public welfare right to do it or we do it give the money to the state, but we federal money won’t go to thes community chest exactly, right? They’re trying to force the hand and unwilling recalcitrant states and localities and localities. But but, yes, that’s and that was hopkins idea. Of course. Now what did the non-profits do i mean, this kind of left them out in the cold? Now, you also have to realize that at this point we were talking about community chest, but this was one. This is not to say that the arts efforts weren’t going on, and people were founding zoos and botanical gardens, and a lot of this was originally founded by private garden clubs or a zoological society, but the nation was in crisis and relief. I was always from the charitable sector, which is why i was cold, and now they couldn’t do what anymore krauz was too big a job and be the federal money couldn’t go to them, have you? You have no soul, we invent themselves. I mean, i said us made early on what was the theme? I keep seeing resiliency and one of the things that they’re one of the earliest tests of this resiliency was after the depression because basically the feds said you can’t have anyone for you no more money for you, yeah, yeah, so say little about the jewish contribution. Tio what we know, i think this is all really fascinating. There’s a book believe guys named wrote it. Was cahill cal in-kind how taylor count it’s called the gifts of the jews the gift of the jews book is probably twenty years old, this point, but he makes the point that one of the biggest contributions that the jewish culture the jewish religion made to us here in the united states was, in fact cultural, cultural. It had to do with how human beings reviewed when the jewish immigration here started and watch. Think about where these people come from. They were either, you know, they were persecuted in czarist russia. They were persecuted in poland, which was part of czarist russia. They were kicked out of spain. I mean, you know, a thousand years of this, they had an outsider perspective nobody else had, and they brought that here with them. And when they got involved in charity and they were the ones they were the biggest analyze of the black civil rights movement, because their idea that nobody should be an outsider was central to them. And they brought that, too, that you think about today’s non-profit space. We are concerned about the handicapped. We’re concerned about all sorts of groups that you might call marginalizes. Semi marginalized and thiss was antithetical to the jewish world view. So to me, whereas a lot of these other charities were taken care of their own. So, for example, there was the irish working in such and such, but you had to be irish. The jew said, no, inclusive, inclusive. We’re gonna take our last break. Okay, text to give. Welcome them to non-profit radio by checking them out, please. Mobile donations made easy, it’s, simple, affordable, secure. If your donor’s consent a text that can make a donation, you get more revenue because it’s giving made easy text. Npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine and that will get you info on text to give and that’s also the way to claim your special listener offer npr, too, for for foreign. Nine, nine nine. We’ve got about six more minutes for how we got here. We visited. Excellent. Thank you. The jewish tradition. I just i cannot emphasize that enough, because i mean, truly today if you look at the whole core of the non-profit mission, it is inclusivity. And i personally feel that without the incredible jewish influence that particularly here in new york and new york became kind of like one of those centers of the non-profit war with still is i cannot emphasize enough how strongly i believe that that that this world view yeah, that thread truly, truly helped imprint of what we have today. You got to get the book because there’s some things were not going to be a lot of the great depression. Kennedy’s, new frontier. And then johnson, johnson as and jesus or against four war on poverty way have what? Three, four minutes? Five. Okay, well, i want to talk about the future too. Okay? Then i’ll do. So just do johnson. Johnson set us on the road that we’re on the war on poverty, right? Warren? Right? The great society war on poverty. We are today farther down that road and that road is been fancied up. There are, you know, they’re curbs where maybe it didn’t. Used to be curbs there’s, a newer pavement, nicer pavement and original, but it is the exact same road. What johnson did was, he said, we’re going to take federal money and we’re going to change poverty. We’re gonna eradicate whatever his goal was, but it wound up that it wasn’t the government that was doing it. It was government money going to community action agencies and two non-profits now we don’t time now to go to talk about what happened to non-profits during the fifties between world war two and way, just get the book and, well, i have the book. Oh, you mean elation gets into the thirteen thirteen thousand we’re joining this mission, i hope to god you have a copy, then that’s a different story, but the whole point was that it was hard to get for me to get one lbj lbj set us on the road that we’re on, we’re on now and my feet feeling, and maybe there are people in this sector would argue, you know, this is my theory is that basically things have not really changed in direction, they’ve changed in degree. Now the nonprofit sector is not just the partner of government there’s, it’s it’s dependent upon the government. I mean, look what happened to the sector during the depression. It wasn’t the individual stop giving individuals even during the worst of the great recession we’re giving. Corporal was down the corporate snot that big. It was government money. The sector today is very, very reliant on. So again, johnson set us on the road that run now, and we are just farther down it and very much deeper into it. I want to look, look, look forward. You cite generational change too, and technology change as our biggest lorts opportunity, opportunities and challenges. I think i think two of the two of the three biggest things because we end the book on what’s happening in the future. That’s the last of the west. Thirty. Twenty five percent of the book, i think that’s the three biggest things that are impacting the sector and sectors largely unaware of it is number one the growth we’re adding fifty thousand a year in nineteen, ninety, there were a couple of hundred thousand non-profits in united states today there was a startling chart in the book of the pictures that was the charge. You know i have a dream that my son dramatic rise now there’s over one point seven. Six million, actually, nobody as is less to solomon who’s, one of the sages of the of the of the sector says, but nobody really knows how many there are. And it’s because there’s no registration, there’s reporting different story so the growth thiss can’t just go on fifty thousand new ones a year, even given three to four percent you know, dwindling and going away talk about technology and second missions technology you talked before about making online donations easy that is changing the paradigm between donors and organizations such as we’ve never seen before. You and i are oven oven age when we still remember ah, march of dimes going door to door. All right, that is all the canisters canisters, but think about it now we’re making so easy for online or text, but we’re also making very easy to give uninformed donations because it’s impulse it’s on the second and right there in your finger, the third thing is the generational change we’re already seeing the statisticians and the demographic demographer has already seen a great great great change in terms of values and behavior, almost the millennials and us, but not just us also the generation right behind us. So these three things churning bart have the power to totally change the non-profit sector as we know it over the course of the next fifteen years and all i’m saying is we as a sector should be aware of these things and be prepared for what could happen and maybe try to steer the ship instead of just being a cork bobbing along where the tides and the winds take us where they want. Just get the book for god’s sake, bob pender braided threads a historical overview of the american non-profit sector you’ll find bob and his book at braided threads dot com thank you very much, bob. Thank you. Valuable book. Just it’s. Well, it’s it’s it’s, amazon is bond’s amglobal dot com that’s where i would send everybody there in-kind braided threads dot com all right, wrap it up. Well, you’re done. I’m done next week. Peter panepento returns with his co author for your media relations strategy. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony. Martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools, small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p wagner. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com bye, tell us credit card payment processing, your passive revenue stream, tony that m a slash tony tell us on by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr. To four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Bob and i were just talking about that. Our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz, is a line producer. Shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent now that you know your history, go out and be going. You’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving nothing. Cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in center of attention. Tune in every tuesday at line to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c buy-in. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dulled, your host on talking alternative dot com. I’ve been professionally writing comic books, screenplays and music articles from fifteen years. Catch my show secrets of the sire at its new prime time slot. Wednesdays, eight p m eastern time, and get the inside scoop on the pop culture universe you love to talk about. For more info, go to secrets of the sire dot com. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, sam liebowitz, your conscious consultant, and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, we will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on thursdays at twelve noon eastern time. That’s, the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity, thursday’s twelve, noon on talk radio dot. You’re listening to the talking alternative network.