Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of polymyalgia if I had to endure the pain of you missing this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to give you the highlights. Hey Tony, this weekend. Storytelling and local media. Fabian Melendez Ruiz reminds us of the value of sound storytelling and how to get your house in order before you go public with your stories. She shares sound advice on the great value of local media and how to build the journalist relationships that will help you get your stories told. Fabian also reveals startling media consumption trends among Gen Z and Alphas. She’s the CEO of Refuerzo Collaborative. On Tony’s take 2. It’s time to contact your senators. Here is storytelling and local media. It’s a pleasure to welcome Fabian Melendez Ruiz. She is a Venezuelan American communications expert and CEO and co-founder of Refuerzo Collaborative, a Latina owned agency nurturing the stories that reinforce community. Her agency is at Raffuerzocollab.com, and you’ll find them on Instagram at Rafuerzo Collaborative. Welcome to nonprofit Radio, Fabian. Thanks for having me, Tony. I’m excited to be here. A pleasure. I’m glad you’re excited. Thank you. Let’s talk about storytelling. Uh, you, you’re an expert, you’ve done thousands of stories. Let’s just start with the, the value of good storytelling. Why so important? Absolutely. So I, I think we need to start with my background a little bit. So I started, um, Working in PR and I did all of, all of the things. I did food and Bev and, and motor sports, um, and science and book launches, and there was a common thread and that was that I wanted to work with mission driven and mission-oriented organizations. Um, and so I always had the philanthropic bug, right? I always wanted to volunteer and serve on boards, and I did those things. And when I launched Refuerzo, uh, we carved a niche in nonprofits. So that’s, um, I think what would be relevant for a lot of listeners is, you know, why is a publicist on the podcast? Well, I work with a lot of VDs and a lot of boards and a lot of nonprofits. So storytelling is we wouldn’t have you if you did. If you were if you were still working for motorsports and food and beverage, uh, you wouldn’t be on nonprofit radio. You’d be on some, some corporate, uh, corporate PR podcast, but you wouldn’t be on nonprofit radio. So, uh, but we know, we know you’re bona fide because you’re here, but it’s good to share your background too. That’s, that’s fine, yeah, thank you. And um, so, OK, let’s talk about storytelling now. So, when we started working with nonprofits or when I started even before before so, and we started Working on PR campaigns for them. There was a thing that I noticed. And that is, they didn’t have defined stories a lot of the time. So the mission was defined, right? And the values and like the work. But I’m like, that is not the story. That is a, a part of the story. And that’s what should drive the story. But Um, we would have these conversations, and a lot of nonprofits would wonder, well, why aren’t we getting on the news? Why aren’t we being asked to comment about, you know, XYZ when we’re an expert? And I would tell them, well, it’s a storytelling issue because y’all are in a lot of ways, focusing on something that’s a little, a little more self-serving. So y’all are one. To be on the news because y’all want to be on the news versus wanting to be on the news because you have an angle for a particular community issue that is important. And that’s the the importance or that’s where storytelling comes in is it can’t be self-serving, right? Um, really, it has to be because you as an organization. Or as an ED or, you know, whatever, as a program coordinator, have a perspective on an issue that impacts a community that ties into a community issue, and you can tell a story about the impact you’ve done to support in solving that issue, if you will, um, through storytelling. I hope that makes sense. Yeah, well, we’ll have time to flush it out. Yeah, of course it does, and your, your point is, uh, Very important about being, you know, mission centered, right? All the, all the stories are about the mission, of course, but the mission itself is not newsworthy. The, the work, the work around the mission is, but you know, like publicizing your mission statement is not gonna get you anything either in earned or owned uh media. Absolutely. Well, and you have to remember, and you know this, right? Because you work with nonprofits and, and you’re in radio, right? But a lot of people don’t, and they don’t have to, right? Because a lot of EDs or people in nonprofits have other roles that aren’t marketing. But I think it’s helpful to know that, you know, newsrooms are operating very lean. Um, and I don’t think a lot of people recognize that. I think they hear, you know, newspapers are closing, all of these things are happening, but they don’t really digest that. So when you’re storytelling, you have to make sure that it aligns with that particular radio show outlet, you know, newspaper, magazine. And that particular journalist, because they’re getting 500 emails a day, right? So, what are you doing as an organization that is different, that is impactful, that is backed by data, that is backed by people who maybe have been impacted by programs and can speak on it. Um, you essentially have to be a journalist. Or yeah, think like think like one. Yeah. Mhm. OK, uh, cause you’re gonna be appealing to them. Absolutely. Right, OK, um, so we’re, we’re talking about storytelling for, uh, journalist, journalism channels, you know, the news channels, uh, news outlets, not so much social media and, and earned, uh, and earned media or other, other, I should say social media. It’s definitely for both. So I’m starting with um earned or like journalism because that’s where a lot of the crux of my work is. But yeah, I mean, social media is the same thing. I think the issue with storytelling there is that people want to go viral. Um, and I’ve had a lot of nonprofits tell me, well, how can we tell, how can we tell a story so that we go viral? And that is the biggest mistake, right? You don’t, you don’t want to post with the goal of virality, right? Like, virality is, you know, really more of a more serendipitous than that. It kind of just happens, right? Like you can be on top of the pulse of pop culture. Um, but if you post with that intention, it doesn’t happen. It’s very funny. It’s almost like the the least you want it, the more you will get it. So the more you want it, the least you will get it. Yeah, absolutely, that, that shouldn’t be the goal, uh, because it’s, it is, it’s too fickle, uh, like you said, serendipitous, of course, but, but, um, but if we have the right perspective and our expectations are appropriate, and we’d be using the same stories for journalism outlets that we’re using for social uh social outlets and maybe our blog as well. Yes. So the good news about storytelling is that, um, it never dies. So you can recycle that content as much as possible. Um, and really, I think we need to go back a little bit because, um, I think a lot of the storytelling. Workshops that we do and narratives that we do where we rework a lot of that for nonprofits. There’s a lot of internal work that has to happen. So, um, sometimes before we even pitch or help them with social, we have to sit down and have essentially, um, you know, a come to Jesus or, you know, Muhammad come to the mountain situation because Um, you can’t have good storytelling if your house isn’t in order. So we’ve had a lot of situations where, you know, there’s, um, maybe some discontent and a board, and, and that causes everybody to disagree, um, on what the story should be or what they should be doing moving forward, or we come in really with the focus of story. We always come in with the focus of like narrative workshops, but then we find that there are symptoms of other things too, right? Or Um, you know, we’ve had situations where we come in and everything looks to be in order, right? We’re like, OK, we have the story, and then when we actually sit down and are discussing with the board and the ED and everybody, we realized, well, we thought we had the story, and it makes a lot of sense for 2025, for example. But it doesn’t carry the organization for the next 5 years. So maybe there’s um something bigger there where we need to rework the mission or rework like what the actual um What the actual programs are, the services, like it’s, it’s funny how we come in to do marketing and sometimes it ends up being a bit of a bigger project because we want to help with the narrative and a lot of that ties into the narrative and so we end up having to sit down with a lot of nonprofits and say, actually, um. There’s other, other things we need to tweak so it all makes sense. Because storytelling has to align at every level, like we had, you know, a, a nonprofit who um wasn’t getting um Wasn’t getting people to sign up for their programs, um, like wasn’t getting young boys, but they were getting young girls. A lot of girls signing up for this like college program, and they were like, we don’t understand why we’re not getting, you know. Teen boys to sign up. And I was like, well, your messaging says girls. So it was never clear that it was, it was, you know, for teen, you know, at risk in general. It was just, and I’m like, the branding is really, you know, pink and it’s like, you know, I love it because our branding is pink, but if that’s, if that is not what you want, if you want this other target audience, we need to completely Redo the whole thing basically. Um, so it’s always very interesting how storytelling is never just storytelling. Let’s talk more about the the the the house in order before we can start to create narratives and, and, you know, talk about news hooks and things like that, but let’s talk more about what, what needs to be in order before we can find good stories to be telling. I love that question, um, because it’s the hardest, the easiest. So, um, first things first. There needs to be consensus, and I think in nonprofits that’s actually very difficult. At least what I have found is it’s very difficult because Consensus about what by who? What do you mean? Well, I’m we’re we’re we’re about to dive in, Tony. I’m excited. Um, yeah, around all kinds of things. So let’s start here. The mission and the vision. Oftentimes look a certain way when the organization is founded and they have, you know, the founder or the founders of the founding board have a certain like, this is what we want it to look like for the next, you know, however long and then throughout the years or the decades, as there’s different boards and different EDs and it strays further from the founders, maybe the vision changes. Now, part of the consensus building is. If the way that we are carrying out the mission and vision changed. Is that something that happened because it is a natural evolution of the org, or did we lose our North Star at some point? So that’s a question we ask a lot is this is this is pretty fundamental. I mean, if, if the, if the leadership. And the board aren’t aligned around. The, the, the work that the mission statement and the vision call for, this is pretty basic. I mean, that they need, they need some more, they, they need some more foundational consulting before they can start talking about going, going public with their stories. Oh, yeah. Well, and it’s interesting because we see this a lot. We see this a lot, and we will tell them, you know, that is not the work that we do, right? Like we need, you know, we recommend a consultant that we can come in and PR. And I think that’s something that’s really important for us as an agency is to do these things equitably, is to be able to help people and organizations determine like, hey, there’s a, a bigger issue here and we don’t think. In good conscience, I can do PR for you until this is settled, right? But at least organizational development, strategic planning, leadership development. Absolutely. And then there’s other issues, right, that we’ve kind of come in to say we need the house in order before we talk about this. So we’ve had, you know, situations where there was malfeasance, which Happens and nonprofits for unfortunately. Um, and so, you know, cases where money has gone missing or whatever, and it’s like public knowledge, but they don’t ever want to address it. And so part of cleaning houses, we need to come up with some statement because if I’m asking questions about it during this discovery phase where we’re trying. To get everything in order, a journalist on the line is going to ask about it, or someone in social media might comment about it. Yeah, for sure, you’re you’re talking about communications, but it sounds like the crisis is over and they’ve never fully, yeah, they never fully addressed it. Well, yeah, so right, so any any journalist is gonna ask questions about the whether you want to talk about it or not. Yeah. Right, but you’d be surprised how many it works, and I understand, right? I think nonprofits want to be, want to focus on the thing that they do best and that’s serving the communities that they serve. And so sometimes a lot of these, when we come in to help people get their house in order, um. It’s out of fear, right? They’re like, well, what if people lose trust? And I always tell people, or, you know, leaders, people will lose trust if you’re dishonest. Point blank period. But if we’re honest and we address things, There is more forgiveness to be had. And then there’s a more benign, um, more benign versions of like getting the house in order or consensus building. So we’ve had situations where, you know, um, maybe the ED, when they go out to network, talk talks about the org one way, but then we learned that program managers, uh, talk about the org another. Way and it’s all good. It’s all positive. They just have differing messaging in which they’re talking about the impact of the org. And so that’s an easier fix because we get everybody in and we do these like narrative sessions where we say, OK, let’s all come to a consensus as to what we all think. You know, the, the bio of the org that isn’t the mission or the vision, but like how we’re talking about it makes sense. Like, what are the things we want to highlight, what are the impact points that matter, what are the data points that matter? And then let’s come to a definition together so that there’s alignment. And obviously those are um Those are a little bit easier because it’s just tweaking and refining certain things. So that’s usually what I mean by cleaning house. And it’s a spectrum, obviously. There’s the smaller things and the bigger things that we have to escalate, but really I think a good marketing team, which is funny because I think people don’t think that, but a good marketing team is, is. Foundational to any business, I mean nonprofit or for-profit, and should be able to flag things and say, hey, you know, the reason the external messaging isn’t working on social or earned media or what have you, is because of these things that I’m flagging. OK, no, that’s all valuable. You gotta have strong foundation. Before you can go out publicly and and ask journalists to, uh, you know, to promote to promote your work essentially. But people don’t know that, Tony, and it’s, it’s bunker. I mean, it’s it is, right? Because that’s my job. But, and I live in it, right? But you would be surprised or not at how many EDs or or leaders are like, I just, I really want to be on the news and I’m like, you can’t. The messaging is too, it’s too scattered, it’s too messy. Yeah. And OK. And so not only the messaging isn’t. Consistent and, and, and all positive because the house is not in order, but OK, let’s say now we’re past that. now, now don’t we need some kind of a news hook? I mean, a journalist is, is very, very unlikely to just do a general sort of puff piece about your work unless it relates to something that’s timely and topical. Right, so there are. I mean, the good news is nonprofits usually do an annual fundraiser. And so I would say that’s the lowest hanging fruit in terms of a hook. Um, because a lot of local TV alis and radio shows do want to talk about events that benefit the community. So that would be an example of a hook that maybe is a little bit easier to pitch around, um, maybe a fun event like a run or a walk, you know, yeah, galas do get covered, um. You know, there are nonprofits here. We’re working with one who’s doing, um, not a gala. Their annual fundraiser is actually a food passport. Um, so they’re an AAPI organization and they work with the Asian community in, in Austin, and so they do um this really fun food passport where they connect with all the. Asian restaurants in the city, and they put together this like big discount passport and you purchase that and then you go to the restaurants that are affiliates and you get a discount at the restaurant. But again, see, that’s interesting. It’s newsworthy. It’s tied to like a specific cause. Um, they raise funds because they, you know, again, support health in the Asian community in, in Austin. So they do all of these translations in different languages. So that’s something that a reporter would be like, hmm. That’s very interesting. Um, now, in terms of news that isn’t, um, necessarily around an event or anchored around something like that, that’s where, you know, a lot of the cleaning housework really helps because as you’re defining narratives and things you find, um, you may find Uh, topics that are interesting. So this is an example. We work with, um, an organization that is actually like a non, it’s a nonprofit, but they’re like um a membership org, and they work with uh young women in Austin and basically help them develop their um their they help with professional development. And we were pitching around their big gala or their big, you know, award ceremony, and, and it was the, it was honestly a lukewarm reception and it happens from media, um, and we realized, OK, it’s very alumni centered. So this is in an Austin award that um That is open to the public. It’s the people that are nominated or alumni of the work. So maybe that’s why there’s a little bit of a barrier of entry for people to be interested in this particular event. But we went to the event and they had former scholarship winners speaking. And one of them said something that really stuck with us from a storytelling perspective. She goes, You know, I’m really thankful for this org because I went from a GED to a PhD because of their scholarship program. And I said, That’s it. That’s the story. Um, it is timely because there’s a lot of conversation, you know, I mean, we don’t have to get into it, of course, there’s a lot of conversations about, because of the current administration, things are shifting, and so, you know, that does impact scholarship recipients and so to have the story of this. Um, this, you know, she’s a woman now, um, was younger when she got the scholarship, but how she went from a GED to a PhD. I’m like, this is it, this is timely. It’s relevant, it’s interesting. We have the data to back it up. We have the scholarship numbers they’ve given out. Um, and That’s how we came, we came up with that that pitch angle. So really it’s thinking about, you know, what is going on in the news? What is going on in your city? What is going on in the world, and what are y’all doing to kind of move the needle with a particular issue. This is all valuable, uh, Fabiano, because, you know, we’re, we’re focusing on local media. You know, we’re not, we’re not setting our sights to, you know, whatever, the Chicago Tribune, the San Francisco Chronicle, and the New York Times. We’re, we’re talking about local media, local media, smaller, smaller mid-size nonprofits, which is where our listeners are, um, and, and most likely, most of their donors or all their donors are in the local community. And I mean, the community might be a state, you know, it might not just be your local town, but, but we’re talking about local, local media. This is, this is really, this is valuable. um Right. Well, and so many, you know, again, when I come in, people want, you know, their pie in the sky goals are usually like a chronicle of philanthropy or like a CNN. And mind you, we’ve got clients in those outlets, so it’s not impossible, but Um, I believe that local media will never be low brow. This is like a joke I I make because I think people focus so much on like the Washington Post of the world and the New York Times, and the truth of the matter is we need local media because they cover your town and your city and your stories. The New York Times is not going to come in and cover. You know, whatever suburb of I live in Kyle, which is a suburb of Boston. They’re not going to do that. The only time we’ve gotten covered is because we ran out of water. So like, of course that made national news, but it was none of those like more positive stories are going to get covered because they’re focused on things that maybe are going to drive more eyeballs. So, you know, I think local media is incredibly important, and this is kind of my soapbox about we need to preserve it, but also Um, for a lot of nonprofits, it’s what moves the needle. Like we’ve had clients say our gala sold out because y’all got us on a local, you know, several local broadcast shows like we got more donors, we got more program participants, so it is very important. Let’s talk some about building relationships with local media outlets, which means local journalists, before you start pitching. Just getting them to know you, know your work before you’re looking for them to, to, uh, to publish about you. Yeah, so building relationships is instrumental, but sometimes what happens, everybody knows how to network, but nobody knows how to network right is another thing I kind of say. And because I think people do come into it, um, wanting it to be quid pro quo. And you can’t come into it like that. Even, even if the goal is to get them to cover your org, you have to make a genuine authentic connection with that person because they are a person first and a journalist second. So, um, and it’s the same thing with donors, the person first and a donor second, even though we want to get the other way. So, um, when you are out at, you know, a gala, a conference, like out on the town, make True genuine connections with people, find some sort of common ground. Like, I just, I mean, of course, that’s my my job, so I’m a yapper, but I’ll come in, you know, and start talking to people and they’ll say, you know, my daughter does dance. And I’m like, that’s wonderful. Like, what does she do? Ballet? Oh, I love that. I did, I still do point as an adult. And so we find an actual true common ground that builds. You know, a relationship. I also think the follow up is important. So I will meet people at events or I will tell clients like, You met this person, you need to email them the next morning and simply say, it was such a pleasure meeting you. You know, I would love to, I would love to chat more if you’re open to it. Like, you need to follow up because that’s, that’s really where you kind of funnel that relationship in and, and deepen it. Um, a lot of the journalists that we’ve built relationships with was just, Hey, I saw your pregnancy announcement. I’m so excited for you. You know, like emails like that, that became texts later, that now, you know, they’re they’re kind of on call. Now, mind you, I will say this, the relationship will not save you if the story is bad. So, the way to keep these relationships primed is one, Keep it authentic always. Like, these are not your friends, but also do not send them garbage stories. Send them good stories, really think about what you’re pitching. And that’s a great way to get them to call you. Like, we reached the point where I’ll get, you know, a local outlet that’s like, Hey, here’s our editorial calendar for the next 6 months. Like, do you have nonprofits that want to come on and talk about that? And that is golden. That’s how they’re like, OK, like we trust you because we, you know, we go to happy hour together, but you also never give us bad story. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you, Kate. The federal budget proposal uh passed the House last week and is now in the Senate, so it’s time to contact your US senators. Importantly, something that was very bad, one of the many very bad things in the bill for our nonprofit community, got taken out. In the house that was the provision that the Secretary of the Treasury could unilaterally designate individual charities as terrorist supporting organizations and there was no way to appeal that so that got taken out in the house so our voice counts they didn’t, you know, Republicans have the majority and they didn’t just do it because they felt like it they did it because. People who support nonprofits, us included, spoke up. So that’s very good. So, now that, uh, that bill is now, as I said, it’s in the Senate. A few points that you want to make with your senators when you call or email. You want to keep that provision out. Remember that was the provision you may remember from last year it was House Resolution 9495. Well, it got put into the, the budget bill and as I said, it got stripped out in the house, so we wanna keep that out. So you just want to let your senators know it’s important to keep out that. Designation power that the Secretary of the Treasury had to designate charities as terrorist supporting all right? Also, the, the individual attacks on, on, on charities like on Harvard University, Columbia University, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, National Public Radio. Our nonprofit community is strongest when we are standing together and that means standing for each of our members of our community and it doesn’t matter if it’s Harvard University with the largest endowment of all the charities probably in the world that $50 billion dollar endowment doesn’t matter. When they come for Harvard and they come for Columbia. And they’re successful, then what’s the 3rd domino after those 1st 2? And how easily is that gonna fall, and where is your charity or your sector? You’re part of our community in the line of dominoes, so it doesn’t matter that it’s the wealthiest charity. We don’t like the cuts against Harvard, Columbia, and also the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and National Public Radio. Those 4 members of our nonprofit community have been singled out for defunding. And as I said, you know, after those 4, where is the 5th domino? Is that you? Are you the 5th domino? We all have to stand together. So there’s a couple of talking points, you know, generally you could remind your senators when you contact them about how important the work is that all the nonprofits in the country do, and you could target your own specify your own work if you wanna highlight that as well. All right, we’re in this together and we are strongest when we stand together. So I urge you to contact your two US senators. Uh, if you don’t know who they are, you don’t know how to contact them, just Google, who are my senators. The first link is a link to a government website. You put in your state, uh, in the poll down, and your two senators pop up, right? Google, who are my senators? Please reach out to them. Support the community. We’re in this together. That is Tony’s take too. Kate. Although they’re going after these like big corporations, you might tell yourself like, oh, they’re not gonna come after me, they will come after you. Like it starts with the top and then they work their way down and they they will. Yeah. Uh, yeah, and they’re all charities, and all the charities, all the nonprofits are vulnerable. So that’s why we each have to stand up for All of us, each of us. We’ve got Bou but loads more time. Here’s the rest of storytelling and local media with Fabian Lalendez Ruiz. I love the relationship will not save you if the story is bad. It won’t. And, and, you know, it’s, it’s like that with friends that you have normally too, right? Like how many good friends do you have that are like, Tony, you’ve told me this like 1000 times. Like I’m kind of sick of it. Yeah, actually my friends do say that, yeah, um. My, my few. So yeah, uh, you know, you can’t be pitching them every week or even every month, you know, your board meeting is not in a newsworthy event. Uh, you know, yeah, so you have to just manage expectations around the relationship. They’re not your journal, they’re not your publicist. They’re still a professional journalist. They’re still interested in what’s newsworthy, but, you know, everything that you think merits. Publicity doesn’t mean that. The, the broader world or anywhere the world outside your office is gonna be interested. Right. Well, and I also, this brings me to news shocking. I do want to talk about news shocking because that’s something people may not be, you know about it, but people may not be familiar, so. News shocking essentially is when there’s some sort of breaking news or a hot topic in the news and you leverage that to pitch your or, right? So, um, here’s the thing, here’s the caveat with that is, people abuse that and then it becomes either really insensitive really quickly or really frustrating for the journalist. Um, so you have to have a modicum of self-control with news jacking. Not every news jacking opportunity is relevant. But, you know, for example, we had an organization that works with um Latinos voting in Texas and so a lot of their Areas of expertise are helping Latinos in terms of civic engagement but also immigration issues and things like that. And so when um in you know January through the last couple months when there were all these administrative changes around immigration that were going to impact people, we started news jacking and we simply sent an email to like Politico and The Hill and all of the ones that were covering this and even local affiliates saying, hey, we represent this org. They can speak about this area of expertise or available to comment. And because of that, we got, um, I believe it was the Associated Press was like, hey, I’m actually writing a story about Like immigration, does the ED want to comment? So, we were very responsible and very strategic about the news hacking because it was, you know, we’re dealing with human lives, right? So, I think sometimes people get excited news hacking, like, there’s people who, you know, you can imagine, and journalists don’t love that because it seems very insensitive. And also like, why are you pitching me this thing that has nothing to do with like People dying. Um, so we were very strategic about it and it it paid off, so news shocking is fantastic, but again, we have to be very careful with it. Yeah, the messaging needs to be appropriate. Sure. All right, um. You, you, uh, Say that nonprofits should operate as businesses with experts. And not just Organizations focused on the social good. What what do you want us to take away from the corporate side? You know, um, not all of them, right? I don’t want to generalize, but a lot of businesses on the for-profit side do really well in terms of narrative building because they tout their leaders as experts, right? So, um, they are on MSNBC and stuff all the time talking about the market or, you know, whatever, because Because they’re seen as experts now. Whether they are or aren’t, that’s not my call. I focus on making sure our nonprofit experts are actually qualified to speak on things. So, really, you know, I’m a softy and I love the soft side of nonprofits, so that is not an issue for me. But I think for, you know, um, donors or even like the media, sometimes they need someone to come in and be more data-driven, more impact driven, and speak as an expert, as an authority on a thing. So I think nonprofits should balance the, um, how much they leverage like the softer side of things and how much they come in and say, hey, actually, I’m an expert in this topic. I’m qualified to speak on this thing, and, um, that is what we’re wanting to speak about. And usually when we pitch experts in that way, like we say, OK, yes, she’s an ED but she’s a certified clinical social worker, or yes, she’s an ED. But she’s, uh, she has a PhD in education and can speak about education. It goes a lot further than just, and I don’t, I don’t mean just as injust, right? Cause I think the impact is important, but it goes a lot further than just like, they helped 10,000 kids go to school. Cool, but like, what is she actually an expert? Yeah, well, uh, child development, uh, the, the benefits of early, early intervention, uh, the benefits of early education, uh, the benefits of structure and early ages, you know, yeah, so yeah, it’s it’s unfortunate. Go ahead. Well, and I was gonna say that’s, you’re absolutely right because what happens is a lot of EDs and leaders, those people lose themselves in the org, right? And it should be, again, it should be a balance of, we have this amazing impact, we have these amazing programs, but also I myself am an expert and that’s why I’m at the helm of this org, because I can speak on this thing. And I think that’s what we can learn from for-profits in that, in that case. But, um, what were you gonna say? Um, that, uh, it’s unfortunate that, you know, the thinking is, well, she’s an executive director, but like that’s a, like that’s a negative, you know, being an executive director or anywhere leadership in, in a nonprofit is a, is a, is disadvantageous is it means they’re unaware, you know, but we can overcome that. Negative stigma and stereotype because she has a degree or because she’s worked in the field for so 25 years, you know, nonprofit leadership is expertise in in the area. It’s acquired over decades, um, it’s leadership, it’s, it’s drawing people to the cause as, as investors call them donors, but they’re all, they’re investors as well. Um, it’s, it’s hiring and retaining. Talented people to work with the, the program, whatever, whether the program is humans or animals or the climate or or water, you know. So it is, I mean, that the it it subsumed in being a CEO or executive director is expertise. I think it should be more like she’s an executive director and she she can speak on this topic that’s, you know, water, she can speak on water quality or food deserts or, you know, whatever it might be, whatever the, whatever the new jacking situation is. Absolutely. Well I think a lot of the issue, Tony, is, and this is my personal opinion, just based on the orders I work with, there is a crisis of empathy, and I think we’ve been in a crisis of empathy for a long time, um, where people see the softer jobs as less valuable than, say, a CEO. But again, when I come in to work with orgs, the first thing I tell the board or whomever’s in that prelim meeting is, the ED is a CEO. Yeah, so we, we need to treat it in this way. Yeah, I, I prefer the title CEO president or uh or executive director, um, but because it establishes chief executive officer, yeah, but the hypothetical person you’re you’re suggesting like shouldn’t shouldn’t even be on a nonprofit board. If they think they think nonprofit leadership is lesser than corporate leadership, I mean, all the things I mentioned, plus I didn’t even mention financial management is, is balancing budgets and budgeting and forecasting just, just the way corporations do. So, you know, that’s bullshit if, if they’re looking down at the CEO, uh, they don’t belong on a nonprofit board. But and it’s not even, you know, there’s a very, very small percentage, I think, of boards where I’ve had to come in and say, uh, the CEO does not work for you, right? Because there are some that think they can boss the ED around, but that’s neither here nor there. But even, even outside of nonprofits, like, there are, there is, I believe, uh, a belief that these leaders are somehow, I don’t want to say less capable, but are somehow. You know, because it’s a softer, perceived as softer, there’s something lacking, and it’s, it’s very interesting to me because I don’t see it that way at all. And, you know, do you find this in uh in journalism circles? Not necessarily journalism. I think that’s the perception of um. Regular people. So people are involved in the world, and I think that is important though, it’s important to have a barometer of those things because I think engaging the community is important. I think community education is important and a lot of the work we do as a, not even with clients, I mean, yes, but as us as a PR agency as an authority is talking about. The importance of these organizations and how you can see a nonprofit and think it’s soft, but they do a lot of technical work, a lot of things that are valuable, and they uphold a lot of the things that we need in society. So, you know, I, I always think it’s important to discuss because I’m like, no, this is what people think and it And it’s bananas because it’s sometimes it could even be people who benefit from the programs who are like, well, I don’t know. I don’t know if nonprofits are actually, you know, like, good. Um, but again, it goes back to storytelling and how we’re telling stories and how we position leaders and, and, you know, how we build public trust. Yeah, that’s all, that is all essential. Um, and especially now I think with this administration, you know, Elon Musk saying nonprofits are a Ponzi scheme, people just get rich and then they retire, you know, all these. Not even stereotypes. It’s more it’s talking about bullshit. It’s just nonsense and totally reflective of the, the cadre of. People who are, you know, if you want to talk about the soft side, that means they’re passionate, that means they have a passion for the work that goes deeper than, uh, earnings per share and, and stock price and, you know, buybacks and, well, that’s buyback is not a measure of financial stability of a company, but you know, earnings per share and, and, and profit and quarterly. Um, quarterly quarterly metrics that are all financial. There’s a passion that goes beyond all that. So that’s what I would call the soft side zeal for the work. Absolutely, and I think that there’s a level of strength. And that is immeasurable when you’re a leader that is OK with putting yourself in the line of fire. Which a lot of nonprofits end up being, especially, you know, currently, I think there’s a lot of strength. That is or isn’t so, you know, but it shows so much passion to say, I care so much about the mission. That even if, you know, someone picks on me specifically and and is trying to defend us, like, I will fight it tooth and nail, right? And, and I think that that strength, then it shows so much about the, the level of, of care and and level of the work. But yeah, I mean, ultimately, that’s why I’m so. passionate myself about positioning these nonprofit leaders as, as experts because I’m like, this is how we have to cut through the disinformation because people don’t know. All right, well, there’s some work to do on the, on the public side. So much of, well, uh, you know, I. I see some outside the nonprofit community, but so much of my contact is inside the nonprofit community that’s you you get into your own echo chamber and, uh, you forget what perceptions are and they’re and perceptions are being hurt as the community gets. Defied and dismissed as Ponzi scheme. All right, let’s bring it back to, well, this is all related though. This is all you, you, this is all related to journalism and and media and storytelling because our stories need to overcome the perception of weakness and squishiness. That, um, that the public may feel about our about our work and the, you know, the, the, the, the luxury of it and because they don’t understand what how basic so, so much of the work is. Absolutely. Well that’s why I always say, I always tell clients, arm yourself with data. Arm yourself with data, because, um, if you want to fight this misconception that soft is bad, you need to have the data to back up that soft is good, right? That the work and the passion has had an impact. And mind you, a lot of nonprofits already do that, but you’d be surprised at how many, you know, haven’t like checked their numbers in 2 years. And I’m like, Guys, we need to, we need to Really, really like being meticulous about the data, but this is where storytelling comes in comes in as well, because journalism’s journalism’s journalists really do like the data. So that’s where that really shines. But the general public likes the storytelling. So like there is this component of storytelling in the journalism side, but if we’re talking about public perception, that’s where you need storytelling. Um, and you know, you and I are on social, so we’ve seen when you try to talk to someone and dispel something with data, they’re like, show me your sources or whatever, which is fine, but again, that’s not what’s getting through to the general public. The general public wants stories. So storytelling, I think is essential in a lot of ways, and you can pull different levers for different audiences, right? Like you can tell a story that’s more data heavy for a journalist and tell a story that’s maybe a little more, uh, emotionally driven for social media or for the general public. So that they understand ultimately what the work is. What more do you want folks to know about storytelling? And, and working with media that uh we haven’t talked about yet. Um, I think something that’s really important to note is there will be, you know, moments of, um, where the fire hose opens and then moments where it seems like you’re in a drought. And, um, what I mean by that is we have times where, you know, we, we work on a pitch and then that kind of takes off and a client is getting like 7 interviews and then they’ll start going live. Um, and it feels really exciting. And then that kind of stops for a little bit, and the client is panicking, and they’re like, What does this mean? And the work never stops. Like, we’re always pitching, but that just means, OK, like, you had your 15 minutes in a lot of ways for this segment of media. Let’s focus on social for a little bit. Let’s maybe, let’s see if there’s something you can talk about, or let’s write a blog, or like, what does the newsletter look like? So, the work never stops. It just changes medium. And we all change medium all the time, right? Like, I, I still watch the news. I have subscriptions to newspapers because that is my job and I like it. But, um, sometimes I get tired and I’m like, I need to get on Instagram or I actually want to watch TV. Um, so just as we change our own mediums in our lives, you know, nonprofits need to be agile and, and just and pulling levers at different times. And just because your local news isn’t covering you all the time doesn’t mean there isn’t a story to tell, just, you just have to find where to tell that story. Brilliant. Do you, do you still read um physical newspapers? I do. I do. Yes, and physical magazines. I have a whole stack behind me in that shelf down there, but, um, I grew up. So, like, I have fond memories of waking up every morning and my parents reading the news like physical newspapers at the breakfast table until I do that. Um, and if I can’t, for some reason get the physical edition, or they don’t give send it to me, I have the, the like physical on my iPad. Which is still, you know, and it’s funny because I think that there’s a level of education and PR that is going away, or like a level of knowledge, because I’ll, I’ll tell, you know, interns, Oh, this is above the fold news. And they’re like, What does that mean? And I’m like, right. Um, and it’s still a term that is used, but I think the The um origin is now lost, whereas I’ve had to physically show them a newspaper and say this is above the fold. So yeah, I mean, I think there’s there’s lots of instances of that, you know, lots of things that are. Current and popular now relate to the past. I mean, I, I look at my phone, my cell phone has an image of a, of an old kind of phone that you used to hold up to your, you know, the icon is a phone that you used to hold up to your head and had a wire attached to it, you know, nobody under 40 knows what that means, I don’t think. When we’re seeing a resurgence of physical media, um, so Gen Z and Jan Alpha do want subscription, like physical subscriptions. They want CDs, they want DVDs, like, yeah, yeah, like magazine and newspaper subscriptions. Yes, we’re seeing a resurgence. Because I think um people are tired of the fickleness of like the new subscription models. So, you know, having Netflix, but it goes up $30 every 6 months on a whim, and you don’t own any of those movies and so we’re seeing. Uh, younger generations return to physical things, like tangible things. A lot of them are giving up iPhones for flip phones. A lot of them are getting landlines installed. A lot of them are going back to malls, they miss physical shopping. So, and I’m very, I mean, again, I read physical newspapers, so I’m very pro own the things that you buy. Um, otherwise they go away, right? Like, and they’re never seen again. They’re in the Disney vault forever. So, um, own, you know, we’re getting a VHS because we started collecting VHS’s again and we watch them. So the physical media back, and I think that’s, yes. This is very interesting. All right, I, I, I am not aware of this at all, Fabian. Um, younger folks going back to DVDs for movies and, and physical subscriptions delivered. Newspapers and magazines. Yeah. I think we all got tired of, I think we all got tired of everything being so ephemeral. I understand that’s the same reason that I at 63 years old. Uh, baby boomer, but young, young baby boomer, young. It’s very important to know that. Um, I, I have a collection of a couple 100 DVDs that the movies that if I want to watch them. I’m, I don’t feel like waiting until they show up on, um, on Prime again where I don’t have to pay $4 for them. I wanna watch, I wanna watch. Well, my most recent one was, um, Citizen Kane. I want to watch Citizen Kane tonight, and I don’t want to have to go shopping around for it. And if it’s not on any of the services, then I don’t get to watch. Uh, no, no, I wanna watch it tonight. So that’s one of the couple 100 movies in my collection that are just essential when I want to watch them, I can. When it it goes to this idea, also there’s a little bit of um revisionist history happening with a lot of media where You know, I, I work on the PR side where if I don’t have the physical thing, the links will disappear. So if I don’t clip them, if I don’t get the physical subscription and a client was in a magazine or a newspaper, and they say, Oh, don’t worry, it’s also on digital, that’s cool. But sometimes websites get scrubbed and those links disappear and it’s like it never happened. So that’s, you know, my professional reasoning, but on my, in my personal life. You know, I love film. I’m like a big film person, and I’ve noticed that sometimes films get altered. Like the version on Prime, they changed certain things because they were like, Well, you know, and I get it. Like I understand it, the, the theory of why that’s happening because they’re like, Well, it was made at a certain time and maybe certain things aren’t appropriate, but I’m like, Yes, but also it’s it’s not the same thing. Now, now it’s the Amazon redux version, which, which I’m not at all interested in. No, it’s not the same. Yeah, but of course things have evolved. Times have changed, but the movie, the way it was made, that’s, do you have, can you, is it possible for you to name a favorite, can you name a favorite movie? Or is that, that’s, it’s too hard? No, I can name a favorite movie. Um, I’ve been watching a lot of black and black and white films right now, and, um, I just watched Mildred Pierce and I realized how much I love Mildred Pierce and how much I love that movie, um, and I just rewatched the original, um. The portrait of Dorian Gray, and I forget that that one was, um, it’s black and white, but every time they show they show the portraits in color, and I really love that, uh, because I think it’s a beautiful use of technicolor. I yearn for technicolor personally. I think movies now are too dark. Um, there’s not a lot of saturation or like beautiful colors, and it’s funny because directors say we’re aiming for authenticity, and I’m like, you can be authentic and still have some sort of color saturation. OK, right. If you like, um, picture of Dorian Gray, have you ever seen Sunset Boulevard? Yes. OK, you have, you know it. OK, good, good. Um, all right, very interesting, very interesting information about, uh, you’re talking about Gen Z, I guess, Gen Z and alpha. Which goes after Gen Z, yeah, they, they’re bringing, so there’s a statistic that like 29% of them now shop in store, so they’re reviving malls. We’re going back to mall culture because they want to hang out in a third space, um, but then, you know, there’s other grim statistics like 50% of them say that their career aspirations are to be an influencer, so, you know, balance. Mm. All right. Yeah, um, I’m focusing on the positive. They wanna be, they wanna be with people in real life. They wanna see their friends in real life. They don’t just want a game with them. Right. OK. That’s all very interesting. You wanna leave us with um just like a little wrap up, a little motivation. Reminder about storytelling and its value and local media, you know, tie it all together. You’re the expert. Absolutely nonprofits are doing incredibly important work. And the best way to thrive and survive during these uncertain times is to tell your story. Fabiano Melendez Ruiz. She’s CEO and also co-founder of Refuerzo Collaborative. You’ll find the collaborative at Raffuerzo Collab.com and also on Instagram Rafuerzo Collaborative. Fabian, thank you very much. Thanks for sharing everything. Thanks for revealing some things about uh Gen Z and Alpha that I had no idea of. Thank you very much. It’s a real pleasure. Yes, you too. Thank you. Next week, consciousness and intentionality in work and retirement. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit Radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.