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Nonprofit Radio for August 10, 2018: Your Media Relations Strategy

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Peter Panepento & Antionette Kerr: Your Media Relations Strategy
Co-authors Peter Panepento and Antionette Kerr want you to have a plan for earned, paid and owned media that’s G.R.E.A.T.: Goal oriented; responsive; empowered; appealing; and targeted. Their new book is “Modern Media Relations for Nonprofits.”

 

 

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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d endure the pain of tacky fajita if you made me swallow the idea that you’re missed today’s show your media relations strategy co authors peter panepento and antionette car. I want you to have a plan for earned paid and owned media that’s great goal oriented, responsive, empowered, appealing and targeted they’re new book is modern media relations for non-profits i told you, take two millennials versus boomers we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant wagner see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com bye tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. What a pleasure to welcome peter panepento to the studio and his co author, internet kurt to the show by phone. Peter welcome, welcome back. I’m excited to be back on tony martignetti non-profit radio back to the show. First time in the studio, though first time in the studio, we’ve done it by phone. We’ve done it on site at conferences, but never in the studio. So it’s pretty cool to see you in your native habitat. Thank you very much. Peter’s cofounder and philanthropic practice leader of turn to communications, a pr in communications firm working with non-profits and foundations, he has deep experience in the media and non-profits he was a journalist for more than twenty years, most recently as a managing editor at the chronicle of philanthropy that’s where i first met him even before he was managing editor. He’s at turn hyphen, too dot ceo and at peter panepento internet car welcome to the show. Thank you for having my pleasure. Internet is the founding ceo of bold and bright media, a multimedia publishing company helping non-profit writers tell their stories. She also works as a non-profit leader and a journalist. She contributes a weekly column for the lexington dispatch in north carolina, that’s where she started in journalism, she’s been a ted ex presenter and is a contributor to non-profit marketing guide that’s, a friend of the show give you the room, miller she’s been on a few times. Internet is at bold and bright media dot com and at the right folks w r i t again. Welcome, antionette. Look. Thank you. Welcome from north carolina. Now i have two homes in north carolina, in pinehurst and emerald isle. Where is lexington? I think it is somewhat north of finders. But finders is beautiful and it’s a lovely place. Not like to go and visit. Great place to go. Yes, it is. I’m not. Yeah. I’m not a golfer. A lot of friends say that’s a waste of a house in pine er’s. Because it’s actually on a golf course. But i just watched them thankfully. It’s. A nice, quiet sport and i don’t know too much about sports. But it’s a nice quiet one. It goes by in the backyard. I don’t hear them. No golf balls in the kitchen, windows xp. Fine. Where so we should get together sometime. We definitely should have written for a pine straw, which is a beautiful publication there in-kind okay, so, yeah, you get a chance to pick that up? I haven’t written for them in a while, but it’s really great magazine. Excellent. Pine straw, i’ll look for it together. Peter and antionette have this book new book called modern media relations for non-profits creating and active pr strategy for today’s world antionette let’s stick with you. Why? Why do we need a media strategy? Well, we need a media strategy because i haven’t been on the other side of covering non-profit and then on the executive director side, i was actually exactly director of where q different non-profits i realized that there was a missing element of communication, and a lot of that has to do with not having a media strategy. Most non-profits don’t have a sign media relations coordinator, we we wish we all had the money to do that thing strategy is really a cost effective way to implement some tools. Second make you a media darling that can help you get promoted in larger publications or on television and radio, so that our goal in writing this book was just to help people with, you know, some constant, active and quick ways that they can improve their media relations strategy. Peter, you were at clark chronicle of philanthropy when i first met you. I think you were web. Editor. That guy was probably right. Yeah, i was on your podcast that’s right before i had this show. I’m pretty sure this is very meta. Yeah, we’ve come. Yes. The student has become the teacher. You have to obey me now. We were in the chronicle philanthropy studio. Um and yeah, i think you were web editor. Alright. So through web editor, you became assistant. Was this a managing editor? And they’re managing editor or one of the managing editor’s eye was a system managing editor. Yeah, go right. The point is through that time you had you received thousands of from press releases to enquiries to phone calls, maybe tenth out who knows from non-profits trying to get attention, right? What are i mean, we have an hour together, so we can’t say it all here. Okay? What? What do you what? One or two things you wish non-profits could do? Would do better around their media? Yes. So, it’s interesting. I’ve been on both sides of this equation now, and i know how hard it is to pitch stories that yes, but but, you know, like antionette i had twenty years of experience in journalism, so i got a lot of pitches over the years, and as you noted, the time i had at the chronicle, i got a lot of pitches from non-profits and i think i think the biggest, biggest turnoff for journalists and the biggest thing i wish i could do when i would get a bad ah pitch from a from on organization is give some really basic advice to actually get to know the publication and the person that you’re pitching. This is that of getting blanket pitches that you send everybody, you know, get to know who you’re actually pitching and and know what they cover and and know a little bit about what the reporter editor cares about and taylor your pitch to that to that reporter, knowing what she or he might be interested in covering and the angle that they would want to cover. Okay, duitz you get so many, you get so many pitches that really the ones that stand out are the ones that that kind of, you know, they show some research, they show some research, they know what they cover like at the chronicle, we’re not going to come and cover your charity gala. Every every charity in the country covers a charity gala, but i would get, you know, all these news releases from organizations pitching their gala. I’m not going to cover that, but if you tell me something unique about what that gala might teach other non-profits or can identify a speaker, that might be of interest to a broader non-profit audience that might get my attention. So do that little extra bit of research find out what’s unique about what you’re doing and how that that unique thing that you’re doing actually intersects with the interests of that reporter you’re reaching out, okay? We’ll talk more about your advice for press releases specifically, but okay, excellent. So cem basic do some basic research now. I was disappointed to read in the book that newsrooms are no longer like i saw in the movie spotlight. It doesn’t mean it’s not like that anymore. It’s not it’s, not and what’s really interesting about spotlight, too is that that was pretty reese, right? I mean, that was an investigative team at the globe about ten years ago that was doing some major investigative work, some of that’s happening now, but in a lot. Of cases newsrooms have been really cut to the bone, they’ve been commoditized, the business has really changed and and as a result, there aren’t thes robust reporting staffs in these big news holes that you’re going after it’s become a lot more competitive, especially for non-profits who may actually be reaching out to publications that don’t have anybody who actually covers non-profits as a beating the non-profit beat right? All right, we’re going, we’re going toe take our first break, and it is for pursuant your newspaper is pursuing e-giving outlook, they took the latest fund-raising reports and boiled them down to the takeaways you need in a concise content paper. Watch the archive of their related web in or do both it’s, an ensemble piece of paper with matching webinar through the coordination both are on the listener landing page. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital p for please now back to your media relations strategy. So peter what’s the implication of this degradation of the newsroom loss of the newsroom, no longer a non-profit beat reporter for non-profits trying to get the attention of media there, some negatives and positives related to that, i would say the big negative is that it’s a lot harder to identify the people you need to build relationships within news organizations and it’s a lot also a lot harder to get your story place, because there’s there, our reporter now might be hearing, you know from from even more folks who are competing for the limited space and what we’re talking about a newspaper here in this case in the newspaper. But it actually goes across local television and other things, too. There’s just the news hole ott of a lot of news organizations now have less space, or they are part of a conglomerate and there’s some, you know, national coverage in your local newscasts that has that’s eating up time now to that’s kind of mandate and there’s no one devoted to the non-profit beat, right? So the surgeon or the people you’re pitching r r have multiple assignments? Absolutely. Nobody is devoted to your your category of existence that’s, right? And people are turning over quickly too, so i’m so the net result of all of that is is you’re competing with a lot more people for a lot less attention. The upside of that, though, is if you are really good about building relationships with a few key reporters out there, and they start to trust you their time is so short instead of you having to pitch to them, they’re going to come to you probably a lot more regularly when they need an expert on a specific topic. So if you’re able to break through and get the attention of that reporter and and they trust you, um, that becomes really valuable to you and that’s really a key basis of the book to its howto build those relationships and howto break through and get to the point where it’s not just you sending news releases out to reporters and hoping they cover it, but but that they’re actually coming to you when they need an expert on your cause or on what’s happening in the nonprofit sector in your community or, you know, whatever you’re really looking, push, we need our media relations strategy to be much deeper than spread what you caught spray and praise brain provoc press releases, you know, to one hundred outlets, none tailored and just and just hopeful weigh a lot deeper that we’ll get to it, we’ll get to it shortly antionette by the way, i love the name antionette that was my grandmother’s name on my father’s side. Antionette antionette do you do you go by and short or do admonish people know it’s antionette now, it’s just that it’s hard to fail, but when it was hard enough to learn that name, so i think i’ll just go by that name because i noticed you have a n t i o n e t t and i think the more common spelling is oh, i end absolutely catches everything i never yet it’s right on my show sheet. I’ll prove it, peter, i’ll show him i have it spelled right every time because you’re smelling it like a grandmother, but i know i noticed i noticed you spell it differently. I thought maybe you were saying antionette but no, not internet. It’s okay, antionette martignetti was grandma martignetti you spend all the time in the book talking about ethics? Why internet? Why? Why? If we’re approaching media, why do we know about? Why do we need to know what’s the some ethics guidelines basics for journalists? Well, this is an important time in an important environment you’ve been a journalist. So one thing one of my pet peeves is whatever i work on a story non-profits asked me if they can read it, which would cause me to lose my job. I really leave a lot of people don’t understand that, you know, it could be really offensive that crosses the line between advertising and paid yeah versus a really urgent media story. So you know, where you go to a television producer, for example, and working studio you might be ableto see it after it edited and sent you, but you don’t really get to have input in that process, so we wanted people to understand that, and to really it’ll help with your relationship. So we begin our book with some jargon in terms that we use like moon, where the peter just talked about you tell me why someone would want to come to your gala will for a journalist, you say here’s, why they knew where they are, ears perked up so that’s that will really help people in establishing relationships to understand the ethics and the jargon and behind the scenes scenario with newsroom another point, you make his offering someone journalist free admission to a gala. Or maybe, you know, can i buy you a lunch? You should. We should know that. There’s. A good chance. You know you’re polite offers will politely be turned down. Right, and most organizations have a have a policy about that on the other side of the news room, so don’t take offense if they say no, i can’t accept your ticket. I mean, it’s it’s for, you know, a ten dollar event that might be that might not be an issue, but if it’s for one hundred fifty dollars gala, you know that that might be an issue for journalists, except that it could be considered, and julie influencing their objective news stories on din the new york metro area, it could be a fifteen hundred dollar ticket right way. Okay, we’ll get there in north carolina. It’s coming, it’s going, well, i’m not i’m not saying that’s a good thing anyway, i’m just saying that that’s that’s the state of the state of some some dollars in the northeast or certainly in the new york metro area, i’m not saying that that’s something to aspire to by any means, right? So you antionette you touched on earned and paid versus owns you in the book the two of you call this the trifecta could you distinguish between earned payden and owned media for us? Absolutely. And the trifecta isn’t a unique term for our conversation when that is used quite often in the journalism world, but what i noticed is that non-profits we’re really focused on earth media, but sometimes their strategies weren’t connecting their own video, which earned media traditional journalism. So it is what a reporter on whether it’s radio on the radio are print, which cover and its objective information paid media is advertising, and then all of the media which people forget that they actually own their own media sources right now between social media and website, they they do have control over that i’m seeing people, for example, a community college that had a huge cam picking that they paid for with an advertising firm to say we want a traditional student but well written their website, it didn’t really correlate with the messaging that they have paid so much money through advertising and paid people to get stories and earned the other press releases, and then they didn’t coordinate that with their own owned media that we really talk about dating you cover that case in the book that they were paying to get nontraditional students, but then there’s social media and the website was highlighting volleyball and some other sport. You know, it was highlighting the sports, and so people are looking for coordination in message, and they weren’t finding it right. They were born. They were showing back about players, and they wanted older students, people to consider themselves a student. If they’re older, they had a violent past about being featured on the website. Let’s, see so let’s stick with you internet talk a little about the earned media. Peter gave some tips about press releases. What i like way like here, actionable, no actionable strategies tips. You know what? What, what, what some other advice around making press releases more likely to be acted on and not not trashed. We have a section where we talk about appealing for may have been working with pressure lisa’s much first job as an intern at a newspaper with a full presently about the fax machine and deliver it to the right. This doesn’t seeing press releases the good, the bad and before quite some time and for non-profits a particular thing after you that they’re not really appealing a lot of times that we’re having the same event. You know, we talked about the gala where a golf tournament, we just kind of recycle the same press release every year and again, that’s not showing what worthy and a lot of times when you read the press release, i tell people, if you get bored reading your own press release that, don’t they? So just to make him appealing is good and then as some really powerful quote. So once the happiest people has this really stuffy quote from the executive director, that doesn’t end quality to the conversation. So that quote from from your weather report chairs or eighty your communications director to me, something exciting, not great language, but nothing exciting. You even recommend you recommend spending ten minutes interviewing the person, even if you’re the internal. You know, if you’re the internal communications person, you recommend spending ten minutes interviewing the person you’re going to quote, you can get some of their active language and bring some of that passion out that theyve got for the subject. Absolutely, absolutely that’s part of making your strategy appealing. So, you know, just just kind of sprucing up the language and and again removing the jargon from your non-profit and your great language. I feel like people, especially if they receive a grant that cutting case, you know, part of their executive summary into the press release and the journal is not you. I love making this news worthy. So, peter, our press release is still valuable men. Should we even bother be doing them, though? Yeah, i mean there’s value to him. But i think they shouldn’t be the default any more. I think a lot of organizations think there think that by sending news releases out, whenever they have something to announce that’s their media relations, they’ve got made a strategy right right on that it should be part of the picture, but it shouldn’t be the whole picture, and they are valuable in a couple of ways. One is they actually can provide valuable information to a reporter when they’re reporting on a story they’re very helpful toe have posted on your website a zoo in an archive for when people are looking for information specifically when reporters are looking for information on a lot of times, if you have those news releases posted on your website, they may connect through a story they’re writing on. It may not happen the day you signed the release out, but three months from now, if you release an important report on something and reporters covering that issue let’s say you put a report out about hunger in your community and it gets to be around the holidays and reporters doing story about hunger and hunger charities around the holidays that release might actually get their attention when they’re looking for information so there’s value there. But when i think you’re sending them out, i i feel like you get a lot more attention and you do a lot better job of building relationships if instead of just sending a news release to everybody on your media list, you you identify a few people and actually send a personal note to that reporter talking about what’s coming up, you know, giving them a heads up about what’s there, talking about some things that might be of interest in that announcement to that reporter and then making yourself available is a resource for for follow-up either right then or whenever the reporter needs that, i think if you actually spent more time doing that and less time just cranking out press releases you, you get more of your news covered and you built some better relationships and that the personal note idea. You have a little section in your book where you say you’re recommending something, you say way, have we switched years to make this a fund-raising book? No, you’re talking about relationships with reporters? Yeah, yeah, and no. So, i mean, i know it’s. Just that relationships are important and the personal note goes above and beyond how many personal. You know how many personal handwritten notes would you get in a month? You know what? The chronicle of philanthropy? Very few. But you know what? Average it’s a stand. And it stands up, you know? So he’s going to get rid. Exactly, write something stupid in your hand written note. You know, it’s still gonna end up in the garbage, right? So don’t try anything stupid, but, you know, you can stand out absolute waste. And that z very, uh it’s perfectly consistent with what we say about dahna relationships, absolutely for fundraisers sends the personal thank you note from a boardmember or something? Yeah, the personal notes, the thank you’s are really crucial. Azan example on dh this has happened fairly recently. One of the clients i work with, you know, is looking to build relationships with reporters who cover philanthropy in wealth. And i’ve reached out to a really prominent ray boerner, who covers wealth and have built a relationship with him without ever actually pitching a story to him. Yeah. So, you know, i sent along a couple of of story ideas to him and explain to him who i was and who i worked with and how i could be helpful to him. And we had a bit of a back and forth, and it got to a point where he actually reached in some of the email back and forth, he finally reached out to me and said, hey, i’m working on the story. Do you have any people who can who can be quoted and and i got back to him with three people home run, yeah, he’s asking you, he’s asking me, and then on top of that following that and, you know, actually delivering on it and him getting the sources he wanted. I got our email back afterwards where you actually i thank him for the story and he replied back and he said, you are now in the pantheon of pr people whose emails all open every time. So if grand slam, if you can deliver on that, you can you can move yourself into that pantheon and and that’s way more valuable than that would’ve been way more that one relationship is way more valuable than me putting a release out on pr newswire and hoping it gets picked up a thousand times more. See all these ideas in the book you got to get the damn book that’s just the point where we can’t cover everything in an hour. It’s modern media relations for non-profits just buy-in panepento incur. Just get the done thing let’s see? Okay, little moron earned media. That was some good in the media for us, right? They’re actually very good. It wasn’t e-giving, but nobody. You’re welcome, but nobody listens to this show way. Have over thirteen thousand. Um, let’s. Stick with you, peter. Peter p on on beds writing your you can write up ed. You’re writing on spec though you might spend a lot of time. It may not get printed, but it could be valuable if it if it does absolutely, you can be purposes. That’s, right? Ok. Writes a little opera. Okay. So op eds. If you’re not familiar with what i’m not, that is if their opinion pieces that are written by outside writers. Thank you. You’re a newspaper keeping me out of george in jail. Well, my own show. I have jack in jail and i think it’s interesting s o, i’m about to put out an e book on top says, and we’ve had a really hard time titling it because way can’t assume that anybody knows what an op that is so it’s kind of an internal struggle i’m having right now too, but ah ah lot of people think that op eds are kind of ah dinosaur thing of the past that they don’t really exist anymore, but guess what? Newspapers are still running them, and in fact they’re probably running more of them now because they have smaller staff, so they’re actually looking for more writers to contribute to their pages. So if you’re actually looking to advance an idea or, you know, advance an issue trying to, you know, build awareness about, you know, health care and you’re in your community or some kind of gap there, this is an opportunity for you to build a, well, a statue, you know, well crafted argument written by a thought leader in your organization, your ceo, your executive director, you know, the head of whatever initiative you’re working on and and use that space is a is a a place to kind of articulate your argument about why that issues important and what’s being done about it, or what people can do about it and a cz you noted the great value of that, you know, there is competition for these so you you’re writing these on spec your you may send it into ah paper, and they may not pick it up. The op ed page is limited space, right? Exactly if it does get picked up. Wonderful, right? You’ve gotten you’ve gotten in there if it doesn’t get picked up now you have a piece of writing that you can use for other things, you can use it on. You’re on your own media, you can use it on your website. You could put it in an appeal to donors. You can put it in your annual report. You khun it’s, it’s, not wasted effort. You can you can do something else with it. And the great thing about the era of internet journalism now, too is if the if the peace does get picked up before you know, twenty years ago you pick up the newspaper, you’d read the op ed that day and you throw it away. Now it lives forever online and when people are searching on that topic, your op ed might show up six months later and you might win a new supporter. You might, you know, no, get somebody who wants to learn more about your organization and joined your email list, you can get lasting value from these now internet there’s. Also some services is that you can use teo to find out what generalists are working on currently, as they’re trying to source. Haro is one help a reporter out profnet say little about those would you please sure the one of the big things that we really try to emphasize that help people find you. So a lot of times reporters are working in a silo like peter mentioned before, they have us to worry they have a story idea whether they’ve pitched it to the editor of the editor, came that i really love you to write a christmas story about non-profits in the area, i get that i get that a lot, and so here they are. You know, out here looking for sources. Finding people on facebook is a really great way, but there are services like said president, helpful reporter out sourced bottle on pitch rate that you can, you can say, you know, here here we are, here’s our mission and we can provide stories on this particular topic so you can go forward and really and thinking about your strategy think about what stories you want to share. I worked with a community that serves families who are facing homelessness, and they wanted people to know what that looks like, and they wanted to challenge this stereotype. So when they had an opportunity to connect with reporters over the holiday, they really share different stories about who was living in their community and why, and that was great for them because it was a really empowered story versus just having an expectation that you’re only is gonna work out the way you wanted to. We have just about a minute before a break internet so we’re gonna spend a lot of time after this break talking about great goal oriented, responsive, empowered, appealing and targeted for your media strategy started start us off with goals, and we’ll have plenty of time. The finish up talk more after the break, we’re gonna start with what your advice around setting goals for your strategy? Well, i wouldn’t say start with your with your team, so you know what if whatever role you’re in and you’re reading this book, i mean, we wrote it so that it could be helpful before members of your communications staff eighties, but really start with city now with her team and talking about what is your goal for your media relations strategy? That’s a measurable outcomes like you would for a grand opportunity and think what what comes out of that conversation? It’s really simple, but not something that people take the time to do in their non-profit daily work, you have some sample? Ah, couple of sample goals you can share. Yes, one of the big goals we talked about that before, with the with the community college i worked with was, do they really sell student enrollment going down? And they thought, has only increased enrollment, so their media relations strategy goal was to show that, you know, other that, you know, you just have to be a high school student high school graduate coming directly to the community college. They wanted to emphasize that college was open and welcoming to also they said, oppcoll around that i’ve also you know, i’ve had a personal goal of my last organisation, i work for housing non-profit that kept getting mistaking for the housing authority that our goal was just for people to know our name was a big old fred. All right, we’ll take, uh, take a break. Weather cps it’s personal now heat coach doom he’s a partner. You heard him on the four hundredth show just two weeks ago. Check out the firm, then talk to him. Very good guy. He’s no pressure, have you? I don’t know if you have you ever even heard of a high pressure sepa? I’m not sure that exists, but dahna you will listen to what your needs are and then he’ll tell you whether they can help you. They are wagner, cps dot com to start and then talk to him now. Time for tony steak, too. While there is a lot of talk about millennials, including on this show covered in many times millennials, donors, i’m pursuing baby boomers. I’ve got a different perspective. If you’ve got donorsearch or sixty and over, you need to promote plan gift to them that’s gift in their estate and retirement plans? I’ve heard it so many times loyal donor-centric boardmember they’ve been giving for fifteen, twenty years, maybe more, they die and there’s nothing in their state plan for the organization, everybody expected it, you know, people are saying we just assumed it would be there, but it’s not there they were never asked. I hear about it because it’s often the reason that people initiate contact with mito to start a plan giving program because they’re so disappointed about this, this gift that you expected and wasn’t there and they don’t want to repeat that they’re competitors are asking, your competitors are asking the other non-profits it might be a small community and, you know, they’ve found out that there was a gift to another organization in their will in the community that hurts a lot, but they were left out on against that they didn’t ask. So it’s it’s really not? You know, millennials versus baby boomers uh, you don’t you might very well need to be promoting to both, depending on what your causes and who you don’t what your donor looks like, but, well, the headlines and webinars you know often are going to millennial. E-giving i’m paying attention to baby boomers sabat there’s a north an enormous amount of wealth in that generation, and they are generous with it, and that creates potential. My video says a lot more, and that is at twenty martignetti dot com let’s go back to peter panepento and antionette car who are with me talking about their new book, modern media relations for non-profits, um, answer that we were talking about goals, the g and great, um, you need to identify who you want to be pitching once, you know what you want to do you to identify, you know, who you’re what, your audiences, right, who the right journalists are absolutely, and i need to pitch with purpose. So instead of spray and phrase talk about know, how do you how do you actually pitch with purpose? And a lot of that piers talked about with your delivery of, you know, sitting a press release but also sending a personal note or pitching or approaching them even when you aren’t necessarily pitching your no, i’m agreeing with you and cut you off there no, no, absolutely absolutely that’s that’s part of our goal oriented basically it’s what’s. Your game plan? What we’re asking people, you know, what do you each year you should sit down with your non-profit and say, what’s our game plan with our media relations strategy? You some people call it a campaign, you want to look at it that way, but that is important, and it can it can enhance what you already have going on. Maybe you’re having a big no anniversary fundraiser that really wants some great media attention around that. This could really help you with promoting your fund-raising strategy well and go hand in hand. You need to think of it as something long term to write a relationship building like you were saying, peter, absolutely, and in setting the goals, they’re really not goals there. Not so much goals for your media placements, but as much as their goals for your organizations and you’re connecting your media strategy to your organizational mole. So it has the huh? The maximum value free organization if you’re only able to invest, you know, twenty hours a month of media relations let’s, make sure we’re investing those twenty hours a month on something that’s actually going to move the needle for the organization not just necessarily get you media hits for the sake of media and in the in the immediate term, right? Like, you know, if you if you’ve got your, uh, let’s say you got a milestone anniversary. So you got a fifty if their hundredth anniversary coming up, you know, the time to think about your media strategy is not two weeks before the big gala celebrating the anniversary, right? Yeah. It’s, like, eighteen months before of the anniversary. Osili abila start building those relationships like you’re talking about exactly what you want to build the relation in ships, and then you actually want to think about all right, we have we have one hundredth anniversary coming up. What do we want to? Not only not only do we want to celebrate that, but what do we want that to say? What message do we want to come out of that? Who do we want to reach with that message and having some clear goals around that that actually kind of advanced the work of your organization, you know, really gets you off much bigger lift from the effort and the investment that you are putting in the media. In the in the end. And it requires more thinking and and work up front. But it’s going to lead to much better results. And i think. What? What always gets me and and i understand why it happens is is a cz you noted like you don’t you don’t just make it an afterthought two weeks before the event. Oh, no, we’ve got to invite the media to this that’s. What leads to those cookie cutter press releases? They don’t get into any impact, but if you are actually building the relationships, you’re thinking about what the key messages are your thinking about how they connect to the reporters you want you want, you actually want to connect with, ah, that time is really well spent, and you probably actually ultimately wanna spend less time chasing stories than you. You you are if you’re just kind of doing the dahna oh, no, we need a press release conversation two weeks before that, and you’re also so much more likely to have a positive outcome absolutely and less frustration, absolutely absolutely the are they are in our great is responsive. Does this mean that our media strategy should be responsive? We’ve covered a little this already in the conversation, but really it’s about making sure that you’re not just pushing things at a reporter that you’re being responsive to that reporter’s needs and what here she might be working on. So it’s it’s really media relations there’s two words in it there’s media, obviously, but there’s relations it’s it’s building that relationship on dh kind of being attuned to and responsive to the needs of that reporter that you’re tryingto work with. So it means it means being available, it means, you know, helping connect them the sources it means sometimes actually saying we’re not the best source for you, but let me connect you to somebody at another organization who is on, and it also means to having some basic information on your website and some other places that are actually helping a reporter when they’re on a deadline, connect with you and get the information they need. So we talked a bit about the fact that a lot of non-profits don’t have, you know, a media or a pressroom page on their web sites, and if they dio, they may include a bunch of press releases there, but no contact information for for their media person on dh having been in that reporters share and looking for sources if i can’t find your media contact. Or a place to to connect with you. I’m going to move on to the next organization s o being responsible in some ways being proactive, too. It’s, you know, it’s it’s having some of those basic kind of, you know, building blocks in place to make sure that you’re you’re responding to the needs of the reporters. Internet let’s say little about this flesh is fallible, but in terms of deadlines and you know the urgency that a reporter has when they’re on assignment first, let me ask a basic question is this i used to learn back when i had relationships with people like stephanie strong at the new york times who once upon a time had the new york non-profit beat in the times that ten a m was a critical time like that was a deadline time for a lot of newspapers. Is that is that anachronistic maya dinosaur? Or does that there’s something like that still hold true? I know you’re not a dinosaur at all. I would never say that. Hee hee. I never say that, but every publication as their own deadlines and that’s another thing that speaks to what? What peter mentioned. Understanding the reporters deadline and i love whenever i reach out to people and they say what’s your deadline because they know that they’re going to try to help me keep things moving in a timely manner. That’s a good question, and one that might impress your reporter friend of what you just did. And the other aspect of this being responsive is that when the news breaks that might be related to your organization, one particular organization talked, and we share this example in the book about how there was a domestic violence situation, unfortunately, with nfl player in there state that really launched this conversation about domestic violence, and they responded, but, you know, when you’re where they call newsjacking you have to be ready to go on dh and be prepared to be the scout leader for the person leading the conversation and really no sharing why this particular thing that happens, your organization have been working with families to help ensure that that just doesn’t happen. So they were i mean, you know, when reporters call you calling back, understanding their deadlines, but also if you wanna happen, teo a popular topic in news cycle reach out to a reporter and say, i know everybody’s talking about me too, here’s, how our organization within that conversation and that’s what newsjacking is ok, just try and keep you out of jack in jail. You’re paroled, okay, but longs to explain the term newsjacking alright, so it’s taking advantage of what’s happening in the news, right, and seeing how your organization fits into it and can lend its expertise to the conversation. Absolutely. Okay, um, okay, okay. Um, anything else about well, events? Yeah, internet hyre peter. Peter was talking about events, and, you know, the ubiquitous gala press releases that he would see, but but hey, touched on this little bit. I want you to flush it out for me. If there is something newsworthy about your event, then, you know, highlight that, like he mentioned, uh, maybe a celebrity attending or something like that. Absolutely so that’s a good way to get the media out, offer them a media representative of a time before or after, where they can talk to the celebrity or the expert. You know, i’ve seen a lot of people successful when they had data report, and they offered this expert as they made it relatable to a community need, and then they offered an expert who will interview we do have a section where we talked about what to do to make your event we’d hear friendly, yes. So having been on the other side of that, you know, it has been a challenge with reporters show up everybody’s busy at the gala for the event, and, you know, things are hectic and the reporter shows up looking for the executive director, and no one can seem to find that person who was it? Who was the media contacts and doing something as simple as making a little place where you tell the reporter here’s where you could check in is nice and important, and you really don’t want the reporter roaming around, you know, in some cases talking to random people, so i went to one of it. And i assure you that i was there on assignment and never find anybody who would take the time to talk to me, so i went back and told my editor, we weren’t covering that story. So that’s that’s really, you know, one thing that people don’t think about that think about it in the media there when they’re they’re sometimes they are prepared, so we talk about how to how to make your event media’s really before, during and after the event and share some of your coaching tips for for when they are talking to the executive director ceo, the person may not be so media savvy. You have you have a lot of tips in the in the book share a couple of those for coaching in advance to prepare so coaching and prepare. You want to make sure your media person is on message that’s part of that goal conversation. So, you know, whoever is responsible for coaching the scout leader, that could be a boardmember a lot of times it is, and, you know, that’s, even worse, they don’t do work on the day to day basis, so you want to give them the key. Points, and he did don’t overwhelm them with information, but maybe even a sheet to say no if you get stuff, bring it back to this message and bring it back to this place. I recently experienced that i am on a community advisory board, so i was in that position where our public radio stations and they had a white board and the communications director was like, ok, tell me why you like public radio, and then she would tie it to key messaging, lifelong learners. So she said, well, just keep saying lifelong learners get stuck just say and i’m a lifelong learner, so that was messaging that they wanted to promote it fit within something that was very comfortable for my story and that’s a tip that i also get two people to make sure that that you give them some practical tips. But i’m not why they why they like being a part of your organization that they’re boardmember if there is the executive director, make sure they’re not doing day to day work, they’re busy thinking differently. Make sure they have a personal connection to the story. Peter, you can probably give tips for foundations. Sure, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it’s really about kind of both preparing the spokesperson or the leader for with, with what those key messages are, but it’s also kind of preparing them for what to do when they don’t know an answer to something, and in some cases it’s, it’s, it’s, even them saying, you know, i actually don’t have that information in my fingertips can i have? Can i have somebody follow up with you after the interview, or can we send you some more information afterwards? A reporter often, especially when they’re dealing with non-profits isn’t out to get you, you know, they want to get accurate, useful information, so though they’ll respect that and and and if you don’t know an answer to something, just say you don’t know an answer something and yeah, by the same token, you talk about the hot mic problem and the fact that anything that a reporter hears is fair game unless it’s explicitly off the record. Yes, there’s there’s tons more tips. Yeah, no, i think the one thing to keep in mind, though, is that anything you actually say can unless it’s it’s agreed upon between you and the reporter that it’s off the record and they can’t use it it’s fair game is shooting after they put their notebook and that the men away. Some of the best stuff i ever got as a reporter was after i put my notebook, you know, i closed my notebook and the doug, and it wasn’t deceptive at all. The people let their guard down a little bit, and they start talking a little bit more contemporaneously, and then you go in, the reporter might go back and say, oh, hey, do you mind if i write that down or can you can you talk a little bit more about that kind of make it give them a signal that there are they actually are still on the record, but but always assume when you’re talking to a reporter, when you’re when you’re sitting in front of a microphone like i am right now, that it’s getting picked up way have a president who knows that very well right now. All right, so you know what you say in the presence of a reporter is is on the record, and there are a lot more tips about coaching your ceo. We gotta take a break, tell us you’ve heard me say the test. The tellers, moughniyah, lt’s, tell us, moughniyah, lt’s from from charities that referred companies for credit card processing and air. Getting that revenue each month, and from the companies who are using tello’s. Four credit card processing can use more revenue that long stream of passive revenue. You’ve heard the tell us. Moughniyah, lt’s. Watch the video it’s at tony dot, m a slash tony. Tell us now, back to peter panepento and antionette car. Let’s, move on because we’re going to cover the whole word greek and there’s there’s more about were jumping around. We’re jumping to different parts of it a little bit as well. Just gr yeah, it comes e what do you mean, jumping around this a planned? Well, i mean, we’re kind of covering a little bit of empowered with some of the other things we’re talking about, okay? That’s what i’m saying? Yeah, you’re staying on target antionette hyre assault so anarchists but oppcoll look, i’ll keep you on a message, all right? I’ll help you with your media strategy, your media messaging. Okay, so yeah, there’s a lot more about being responsive. Just get the book for pizza. Alright? Empowered the ian. Great empowered what do this mean? Peter it’s really about kind of owning your message and being proactive in your in your in your work with reporters and wave touched on this issue at different points in the conversation here, but it’s really about not waiting for things to happen to you, but kind of being in a position where you’re where you’re taking an empowered and proactive role in talking about your organization and reaching out to reporters in showing up in the places where where they are so it’s not just again sending emails and press releases its making sure that your, you know your web page has the right information it’s making sure that yes, your own properties? Yeah, you know it’s actually properly it’s it’s, it’s identifying the reporters that you care most about uncover your beat following them on twitter and, you know, retweeting their messages and doing things they’re so you’re kind of showing up on their radar screen and getting their attention that way. It’s it’s really taking the steps that you can in little and big ways to to make sure that that, you know you are showing up and you are kind of putting yourself out there and all the places that really that really help your organization get a story told in the media also, if there’s some placement and it’s inaccurate o r you’re accused of being fake news or you have some rights in this process, absolutely too, and being empowered is recognizing what to do when when this story is wrong or, you know, you feel like something is mischaracterized you feel like somebody’s misquoted. They got a fact wrong, it’s it’s knowing that you have some tools in your toolbox to ask for a correction to run a write a response letter to the editor to take steps to actually own your message. Even in the cases where part of the story was missing or keep perspective was missing. Your organization’s left out of a story that you feel like you should have been in, you know, knowing that you actually have a right and and, uh and an ability to actually advocate for yourself and try to right those wrongs. And we have a lot of tips on how to do that. You also have advice on positioning your organization. Somebody within your organization is a thought leader. Yes. Power say little about s o and an answer not. And i both weigh both work on this issue quite a bit. It’s it’s. You know if and and ties back to your goal. Let’s, say your goal is to position your your organization, your community college as a place for lifelong learners. For people who are nontraditional students having and and by doing that one of the things you decide you want to do is you want to get the message out that there’s value in education in your thirties, forties and fifties, for instance, having an expert on your staff being kind of the voice for that issue, who’s out, advocating and talking about that in your in your own media, but also in her new media is really valuable. So having tony martignetti, the expert in our college, on lifelong learning and looking, you know, for opportunities for him to write op eds for him to be a voice in coverage of education around that issue. You’re branding a person and your organization is a thought leader, but by extension, you’re raising the profile of your organization and building relationships that will get you more media coverage and get you more attention from prospective students, prospective donors and others. There’s a lot of advice in the book about how to position yourself, how to make yourself ready, making organization ready for for to position yourself as as thought leaders plus thank you for the the durney talk pretty when he says my name martignetti martignetti three italians and thank you for that. Yeah, i should have made it about playing, giving. All right, because that’s where your i was going to admonish you that on very shortly start for our last break text to give mobile donations made easy, it’s, simple, affordable, secure. While i was on their sight for a few minutes last night, donations were popping up. The window pops up. Tells you with new donation the ten. Twenty, there are multiple fifties, there was a fifteen hundred donors are using them. Text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine for info on text to give and to claim your special listener offer. Got about six more minutes for your media relations strategy. Internet let’s. Turn to you, teo. Talk about the r is appealing. Your media relations strategy needs to be appealing. What do you two mean there? So we spent time interviewing other journalists about what they would like to see. Not just based on our experience, but we interviewed other people about what they wanted to see in covering non-profits and here’s. How that chapter came together. People told us what they what they wanted to see impressively. The list of them against the elements of a really good quote. I mentioned it. Earlier that people didn’t want to see, you know, great jargon were like, you know, since, um, you know, very it sounds like the official statement of the organization in the quote, but they were looking for something a little bit, you know, when one reporter described it exactly, like, give me something sexy and so that’s how this appealing conversation came about, and the other thing is visuals, a lot of people are under pressure, they might have one photographer that is going to cover breaking news or that that is really important because they high resolution, high quality photos and in some cases, officially, in the television side, videos for the website there’s a pressure we heard from television reporters to have other content on the web site outside of the interviews so that the media source can run that. So having me visuals are very appealing to people, and they’re very helpful when you’re covering something like data and report like, you know, some of us who like that, you know, like reports, but of others in immediate really need to know what’s appealing about your report, so having a very cool executive summary and maybe some really great brand messaging will be helpful. You know, something colorful, even a cover, read it and just spending that in your press early. So those are some of the things we talked about, and we also talk about if you are able to do that, it might be time that hyre announce that resource. So that’s, a question that came up for a lot of non-profit that we interviewed, like, when do we know it’s time to invest? We don’t have this ability to make it appealing or the time in our wheelhouse. So we just give some examples of when you might want to invest in and out, that a company that can help you get placement in coverage, like a turn to that, that that is a really question for non-profit. A little piece of earned media there, like like a turn, too. Yeah, turn hyphen to dr dot ceo that’s, right? Wow, yeah, yeah, bookmark it, everyone. I tell you something else. Ah, on appealing visual. Yeah, you sent you say in the book on lee on ly fourteen percent of the press releases that pr newswire hosts have have anything visual on them, even though it’s a very good idea was, like fourteen percent or doing it so you could be in the and you could be in the eighty sixth percentile. If you just start doing some writing, you’re having some visuals that a publication can not only get the attention of the reporter, but they could run with a story they might cover gives you a bit of a leg up having a photo having cem cem, you know, nicely produced infographics for report. You have those things actually can help tip the scales for you in a really big way, a little known secret at the chronicle, and i’m sure stacey palmer’s either going to be very happy or admonished me afterwards for saying this, but they don’t have a staff photographer at the chronicle philanthropy almost all of the photos they run, they either have to hire out or they get them from non-profits that air cover that that they’re covering, and having been inside the chronicle for years, um, you know, often it would fall on the reporter to actually find photos for a story and guess what if if i know a non-profit has an interesting perspective, and they have a great photo that could go with my piece and i and i and i know i can check that off my box and get that done, you know, i’m going to spend a little extra time talking to that non-profit making sure i can work them into the story because now i have a photo to go with the story so ah, a little piece of tip if you’re trying to get the chronicle, have some good photos available for him. Stacy problem, of course. Dropping names. She’s, the editor in chief? Yes, yes. Alright. Antionette i’m going to turn to you with a little bit of pressure. We just have about a minute. So would you explain targeted, please? I will indeed. We talked about it already in the we mentioned that somewhere in the goal oriented section again, this is identifying relationship. One of the things we talk about, we give an example of a non-profit that really had some great media coverage to a podcast that was related to the topic, so they work in the areas of george preservation, and they connected with george preservation podcasts and it’s the best media coverage they were able to receive, they were ableto have fun donors and boardmember through this relationship. So, you know, taking some time to sit down, we call it modern media relations because a lot of the other books were out before podcasts were even popular, but we really try to challenge people to think about a targeted strategy. And where is your audience? The best audience for you and your non-profit work? Yeah, i’ll give you thirty seconds on targeted. Yes. Oh, this podcast is example of that. Antoinette and i you know, when we were mapping out our media strategy for this book, we targeted a few outlets that we thought were really valuable. They were the outlets that reached non-profit leaders and folks who could benefit from this book. And guess what? You were on that list by implication buy-in non-profit radio is a valuable resource, absolutely. Bye. You know, we didn’t send this to folks who covered the textiles industry. We sent it to folks who cover non-profits and we were really targeted and who we knew we reached out to him. He’s peter panepento you’ll find him at turn hyphen too. Dot ceo and at peter panepento and she is antionette car at bold and bright media dot com and at the right folks w r i t internet peter. Thank you so, so much. Thank you. This was great pleasure. Thank you. My pleasure, antionette next week. Not sure have ever let you down, though, except for that one show on fermentation. But that aside, if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com, responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Twenty dahna slash pursuant capital p weinger cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps, dot com bye tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff, known to these teo co authors sam leaving, which is the line producer. You have to get the book to see how they know her. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music is by scott stein of brooklyn. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the either ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. Thank you, cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in something potentially ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv, then you’re in for a treat. This is michael dole. Check your host on talking alternative dot com. I’ve been professionally writing comic books, screenplays and music articles from fifteen years. 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Nonprofit Radio for August 3, 2018: How We Got Here, Revisited

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Robert Penna: How We Got Here, Revisited
In June 2016, Dr. Robert Penna shared an early, partial excerpt of the book he was working on. The book is published and he’s back to explain the unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s nonprofit sector. His book is “Braided Threads.”

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I break out into papel idema if i saw that you missed today’s show how we got here revisited in june twenty sixteen dr robert penna shared an early partial excerpt of the book he was working on. The book is published and he’s back to explain the un project unpredictable trajectory that led to today’s non-profit sector. His book is braided threads tony steak, too sunshine and bees we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant capital p wagner sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers whether cps dot com bye, tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine every. Glad welcome dr robert m penna bob back to the studio. He’s, the author of the new book braided threads ah, historical overview of the american non-profit sector he served five years as a consultant to charity navigator, and also as an outcomes consultant to the world scout bureau. Indeed, his last book was the non-profit outcomes toolbox, which we talked about on this very show he’s presented before non-profit organizations and associations across the u s and in canada, poland, kenya, saudi arabia and australia. Bob is a native of the bronx, new york, and he still sounds like it. Even though he lives in wilmington, north carolina. You’ll find him in his book at braided threads. Dot com welcome back, bob penna, thank you very much for a little closer, having thank you very much, ma’am ing my pleasure. Thank you. Get for coming to the studio. This braided threads overview overview let’s see what you know we’re i think i think you make the point, there’s just not enough of an appreciation among those of us in the nonprofit sector. Was it snow where we’re from, where we came from, where he came from? Well, i think a lack of knowledge about the east sector is probably throughout the population, but for those of us that work in it, most people never stop to think about where that’ll come from on dh like so much else around us, we americans are notorious for lack of a historical sense. Generally, we just kind of accept that, you know, okay, that mall was built for my convenience right before i was born, forgetting about what was there before being a former got in when they was wanting the same thing with sector people just accept it for what it is today, and you’d only don’t know the real size of the really dramatic economic impact, and i thought that that story ought to be told it actually started a zit. What i thought was a chapter in another work, and it got a cz bigas a book and it was to me a fascinating, fascinating story what’s the thread that you think is most important resiliently through the history resiliency in other words, it has changed. The reason was called braided threads is because it is not one unbroken series of events that took place in sequential owner and all in one line is a metaphor really, for the history on dh the strength i thought both of the sector that there are all these different things that were happening, that when they were woven together, gave us what we have today s so that’s where the title came from. But if you had to pick one thing, i think it’s a story of resiliency is it’s a story of before it was a formal sectors such as it is today, it still wasn’t movement, it was it was a things that people were doing, and it ricocheted off of reacted too, but also impacted events for over two hundred years. You’re clear to point out that it’s not a history of non-profits no it’s, how the non-profit sector evolved because of discreet events in history. Well, that’s, why it’s called overviewing in other words, i didn’t start out with day one and try to give chronologically month by month, year by year. What i did was i looked at what i thought were the most impactful things that happened during or to the history of the sector, and those are things i wrote about now, um, i’m not sure we’re going to go strictly chronological way made the book isn’t actually strictly chronological. They’re places where i have to double back now. When you were on last time, we talked about elizabeth, importantly elizabeth the first. But i know martin luther piques your interest. I thought more pre-tax pre-tax essex. His shame. By about sixty years i particularly thought it was interesting, because if you look at the sector today is largely secular humanist not that there aren’t religious or religiously affiliated organizations in it, but it is not a religious sector. I mean, generally speaking, not that there aren’t religious organizations and affiliations, but it is a very humanistic secular. In some cases, you might sit liberal. I don’t know of movement. And yet it’s roots were distinctly religious. So how did that break happened? Why did that break happened? Where’d it personally, i trace it. Back to a martin luther in the reformation. So you’re how? Because up until then i mean again, and this is not to be focused on just one, you know, ethnicity or religious tradition. This is certainly not to leave anybody else out, but the truth of the matter is that europe was catholic ever since. You know, constantine made it the catholicism of christianity, the official religion of the empire on three thirty, eighty europe was catholic, and then comes along martin luther and he initiates along with few other people of the reformation. And his biggest point was that unlike where the catholic church that it was faith and good works that got you in heaven, martin luther with sola feed a faith alone, you split them and he said, you could do all the good works you want. They’re not going to get you into heaven faces, and he divided it at that point and that crack that infant dismal hairline crack got wider and wider and wider and wider people began to realise overtime. Maybe they never even articulated it but became a sense that there were certain things you do because they’re right not because it’s an extra two points to get into heaven. This tradition had not existed there. Two four and that’s. Why? I peg one of the first first steps towards what we have today in particularly united states with martin luther and now s o and then queen elizabeth. Queen elizabeth was important. Yes, for now. If listeners want to go back, you could go back. Teo. June twenty, sixteen show we talked for about a half an hour. Not all about queen elizabeth, but we talked to fair amount about her more than we’re going to today. But you could go toe twenty martignetti dot com search bob’s last name penna p e n n a. And that june twenty sixteen showed last time he was on. Well, well, appear to you. Okay. Place very quickly. Queen elizabeth, wait time. Okay. Queen elizabeth in sixty, no one issued something. It was called a statute of charitable uses and what she did, wass andi it’s not say this had never happened before, but she codified with the idea that things that were of civic and civil benefit could be appropriate targets of charitable givings, what’s things. Founding of funding of schools self-funding of scholars, the building of bridges, the building of causeways though ransoming of prisoners. All of these things were in this list. So what was she doing there? She was a further secularizing charity. But be she was putting into the charitable pot things that their two four had not been considered charity charity. But charity was always personal to help poor now, she’s moving far away from help the poor bridges, bridges, bridges, cause whillans and ransoming hostages. Or also putting together a sort of a charitable part for the dowry for port maidens. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There was things that today you might call it the social engineering or what? What not. But the point is, it was no longer the idea that charity always was always had to be about helping the poor. So first, martin luther breaks off the idea of these good deeds to having nothing to do with getting into heaven. And then she comes along sixty years later and says, on top of that charitable activity, things that are good for the community and not necessarily what was the thought of his personal charity putting the coin in the beggar’s hand beyond martin luther religion, the evolution of religion i think it has something important, tremendous, particularly united states. We’re probably going to hit religion a bunch of times, but give us an overview of why, why you say tremendous? Well, i would say two reasons first off, because of the impact of puritans, if you wouldn’t mind me mentioning another author, collinwood guards book american nations, he makes that what’s his name colin would guard okay, american nations in yur forward or your introductions in the introduction. Okay? And he makes the point that they were founding culture’s here in the united states, and one of these founding cultures he calls yankee dm basically the puritan culture. And the thing of it is that that had a tremendous impact because their world view they were the on ly one’s coming here amongst the settlers amongst the french, the spanish, the swedes, everyone else who came here, who came with this idea of creating a better society. We’ve all heard that turn the city on the hill. Yeah, john winthrop, in their mayflower compact, was writing this down and was saying that amongst the things we’re going to do is every person has to be responsible for every other person built into the dna of that colony and what it became eventually, in terms of one of the i was so dominant cultures of the united states, was this concept that we have a responsibility, a civic, civil union, responsibility for helping each other. We’re going come backto winthrop, one of the new england puritans, right? We’re gonna take a break, okay? Pursuant they did a round up for you and included a video they’re paper is pursuing e-giving outlook. We took the latest fund-raising reports and boiled them down to what you need to know a round up the takeaways. Plus they have ah, webinar which is archived. You can get both the content paper and the webinar of naturally you know where they are. They’re on the listener landing page. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for ah, please. And i guess pursuant also. Now back to how we got here. Revisited revisited. Eso let’s. Jump ahead. We may come back. Like i said, i may not chronological but you mentioned winthrop, new england puritan new england puritans were different than in terms of their there. The concept of charity then the southern it was also okay. The pioneer was also had a lot to do with was the way they set their society of if you think of the south, the first off there was the tidewater southie, maryland, virginia, northern north carolina. That was one society. But then there was what we came to know for better il as the south, eventually the confederacy it’s that will start in south carroll. It was a plantation. Both of these were actually plantation societies, and these plantations were largely self sufficient. So amongst the things they didn’t do, they didn’t worry about having a public school. It was the rich to care of their own children. They had tutors, or perhaps they sent the children away someplace, but they didn’t worry about public schools or didn’t matter, and the poor didn’t matter need education neither white nor black. It didn’t matter. So all the things that we take now as thinking their earmarks of society, their marks of civilization, they didn’t exist down there. Conversely, the first things you did in new england was you where’s, the village green. The church is going to be at one end congregations of course, the school’s going to be the other end. Everybody supported it through their taxes. So right there you have a division. This then later was reflected in terms of things like the pieces of civil society that you and i would consider to be a charitable efforts. They didn’t exist in the south since religion is a thread. That, yes, it’s very important. The congregationalists. In that time, they were the they were the state and the state religion in massachusetts. Just a massachusetts in massachusetts. Rhode island, connecticut. I’ve really askew for went for the south. It became the anglicans. In fact, the anglicans were minority in massachusetts. And what what became a pro? You know what? You don’t see a pilgrim church or a puritan church anymore. They became the congregationalists which were supported by taxes, taxes, taxes, the older. So i mean it’s a complete you know, this is obviously all pre revolution pre cut free constitution, but right in that in that day, we had state religions. Yes, yes. In every every, every colony, some of the northern state, every common. Okay, could not, you know, including eventually. You know, as things got more settled. Down south, the anglicans, the angle of the church of england was the state church. So for example, in virginia had to d institutionalized the anglican church so taxes wouldn’t go to it anymore. But it did have this thread tony of of how religion impacted it. It goes to his whole story, because when the minister is no longer part of the government, so to speak they had to find a new role. You had other sects that came along after the second great awakening amongst them, the baptists, the methodist, they were incredibly influential because they had they would have a little formal theology that others had it was that’s why you would hear a baptist preacher referred to his brother parsons or something, because they weren’t ordained ministers in many cases, and because of that lack of formality number one they could they didn’t church necessarily they get preach under a tree. But secondly, they also had a much more accessible kind of idea the way they approached it. And a lot of what we see today came from specifically the baptist evangelicals and the method like art. What about some of these traditions? That well, for example. The first first nationwide survived it. The first nationwide charities you want call were bible in tract associations, and they were all run by, funded by and pushed by these southern of evangelicals, methodists and baptists. And that became, like the first nationwide charities, the precursors of all the big ones. You know, today they were the first ones who are, like coast to coast. What else is there another tradition that you can? I think i think another tradition i would connect is ah, the activism of many, many groups. So for example, going back to the abolition of slavery, which, of course, started of all places in boston. Boston was the home of the abolitionist movement, and a lot of the people of there were religiously affiliated. But it is also true that during reconstruction and wanting a lot of the quote, charitable work that was done down there amongst the freedman, that much the freed slaves, etcetera, was done by northern methodist and northern baptists. So this this threat duitz involvement. But they weren’t doing it necessarily for the same reasons that going back to, you know, the fourteen hundreds the catholic slash christians were giving money to the poor that was trying to buy their way in heaven, it slowly, completely different. This was this was a our contribution to society. Exactly it was, it was like a second in the nation beyond was a secular act being done by people who for who belong to, ah, a particular denomination, in this case, it’s. Interesting to see the degree of do get things back, you know, go back to the anti war movement during the sixties, how many of those people marching there were protestant ministers? Many of the many of them were methodists, and they’re baptised. This strain never went away. What was, i’m jumping way ahead. Now we’ll come back to the constitution and separation churches, they but ancient greek, greece, rome, egypt what was what was the conception of charity that well, egypt is a vary by empire. Generally speaking, i mean, even in egypt there are their hyre hyre koegler fix have been found and has been translated that roughly say that you know your place in the afterlife, but depending on how you treated people people in this life, so you might say there was that kind of charity in greece in rome, charity was much more what queen elizabeth did. In other words, the idea was particularly in rome, if you want to get ahead and you want to be noticed. So let’s say you’re in the army and you want to move into politics. You were high up in the army, you would spend stuff, you would spend money on things that the public could enjoy, like you would build a public bath. Or perhaps you i would pay for a temple to athena or some small thing of this nature. But the idea was the charity in those days did the poor didn’t count to the poor didn’t exist on anybody’s radar screen. You had totally different perspective of human nature, human. Value. And it was for your own. It was very good for your own good. Everyone over here, right. Career. So writer’s career development. But the whole idea was to just i could spend four hundred bucks. Goto unconference then i would have had to build a temple to athena. Or you could today you could make a big donation to a hospital and put a plaque on the wall with your name. This is twenty martignetti wink. Yeah, i’d rather build a temple, but okay. That’s. Interesting. All right. Thank you. So so let’s go. All right. So now we have our constitution, our bill of rights, things first amendment geever obviously religion. No, no state religion and and separation of church and state. And so how did these factor into these factored in three different ways on the one part of those? The first amendment is the right of assembly, which the british kept an eye on when they were when they were in charge. Well, now you could formally have. You could have the group meetings you could organize again to worry about. Perhaps the king’s soldiers would come and say, break this up while you six. People was gathering here. One of the things that people did was they formed organisations do toqueville. I wrote back in eighteen thirty something when he wrote his famous his famous review of a matter of america based upon his tour that americans were already organizing for virtually everything you name the thought, music, culture of politics, something that they thought of americans were organizing. He hasn’t has a comment that says where in england you will find a a ah a personal great wealth for prominence heading up an effort will where in france you will find the government doing that in america you virtually always find it being done by a citizen’s organization interested. So this could be a total was here, and with the early twenties, you know, first twenty years or so of american independence. I mean, i believe he wrote democracy in america somewhere around eighteen thirty four and these were already his reflections by eighteen twenty the new england area already had over two thousand of these citizen voluntary organisations they were the precursors of today’s non-cash lorts yeah. And how were they structured? What do we know about their organ? It was structured. Like they were structured, sort of, as you know, an association they had by-laws they had officers what they didn’t have was either illegal corporate identity, nor did they have any sort of physical power because the laws that created what we call today a corporation, yeah didn’t exist back then. All right, so we’re doing, like, early to mid eighteen hundreds, are they? Are they doing their own independent fund-raising yes, they were well, they were doing the way calling us, and there were no bodies description that would call it a subscription to put out a subscription players subscription request. Andi, it was today’s. Fund-raising but they called it a subscription, but the key things in those days were threefold number one, they weren’t incorporated, so they didn’t have a legal standing identity, such as people don’t like about citizens united that whole idea that it didn’t exist. Secondly, they did not have any separate fiscal ability to buy to sell to they didn’t. And the third thing was that the officers or whoever was there, the officers were the identity. So if mrs smith or jones quit and or died very often, the operation would fall apart. Because there’s, no way to keep it going, it was very, very crucial for them to eventually get this right to teo. Incorporate. And one of the most key points about this was that they eventually incorporated under the state laws the laws of their home states. Now, who then control them did the state legislature because it charted them or allow them to incorporate control them? Or were they independent? And there was a crucial of a crucial of court case involving dartmouth university, where by the courts found that even if public money went to these entities and even if in fact he’s public entities these entities were incorporated under state law, legislature couldn’t touch. The legislature could not give the money, but the legislature could not tell them in this case, specifically dartmouth university. What to do that independence was crucial because it allowed these organizations to in many, many, many cases, proceed government in various efforts, whether it was schools for the children of freed former slaves, whether it was schools for today, you’ve called a handicap, the death, the blind they would very often create certainly would call them asylums. Today, in my column, orphanages. For children. And there was one in new york city that was specifically for the, shall we say. Children of prostitutes who might’ve been cold bastards back then or what we call illegitimate nobody. Where did these kids go? What did you do with them? And there were there was a privately funded asylum was created just for those people. Those children for the poor as well, but very old housing as well. Arms houses. They yes, very vory, largely funded by these private entities, but very often, particularly in their city near city under mayor de witt clinton high school androids clinton in the bronx. Yeah, right. Lincoln high. He became he was governor at one point. He was not only when he was mayor. He was also head of one of the largest charitable efforts in the city and was even back then. We’re talking early immigrants. They’re on guessing here, trying to remember eighteen twenty something like that. I don’t remember the exact years of his term of office, but the city was already paying what today would call non-profit to run that run the schools for the poor. So in new york state, particularly this tradition of public money going to a not what we today would call a non-profit to provide a legislatively desirable and socially desirable. And think about it. Tony, this is two thousand eighteen year almost two hundred years later, we’re still doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, i love that around this period, let’s. Take the mid eighteen hundreds of what’s happening in the rest of the country way riese laid our charitable act. Well, slavery and civil war are percolating. And a tremendous number of of effort’s private government effort, a rather private citizen efforts. We’re trying to have a slave trade stopped because constitution originally said that the government could not do anything even in the slave trade, not slavery, but the trade for twenty years. So this effort was going on for a long time and was all be done by citizens in ninety nine percent of up north. Ah, a lot of them either spurred by or inspired by the culture of yankee dome, which was spreading across the country at that point. I mean, think about through from the mohawk valley to the ohio valley way spread from east west. And this culture came with us and the number of people who felt that this was a, uh, scar on our national character increased. And i mean, you’ve heard, you know, the missouri compromise bleeding kansas. We all know what? Well, the things that led up to the civil war, but what was while that was going on, there was this tremendous effort to, among other things, abolish slavery, but at the same time, penal reform. Ah, reform of t end was biggest show in new york. Hamilton, right? Hamilton and burr dueling outlaw dooling also thes air efforts by the various office or he’s working it by these writings organizations. Now, the term non-profit didn’t come along until nineteen. Fifty. Okay, yeah, we’re gonna get well the right to tax exemption. Ok, but by these are a penal reform. What can you think of other examples? What they were doing around this time? Well, was very, very interesting amongst the subscription today we have you know, this there’s everybody’s familiar with the term five a one c three. Well, the three denotes one level of five o one. See, they’re actually twenty nine of them. Well, one of them one of the earliest was what was called mutual society. Sort of mutual aid or mutual. Today there are mutual insurance companies which are non-profit they started back then the ideas you would again have a subscription and if a fire hit your house, this would pay money to you to get you back on your feet. This was another month non-profit effort that didn’t exist, benjamin, for every year where i guess i remember benjamin franklin, but every year i get my subscribers check from yusa, right? A mutual mutual benefit insurance conference company and now and bank, right, ben franklin. Ben franklin is credited with founding amongst the first off non-profit things in united states that volunteer fire court in philadelphia, one of the first libraries, the junior society, these were all today you’d call them non-profit ever efforts that he founded in philadelphia before the revolution. So again, this was but, interestingly enough, not down south, yeah, not down self. Once you started to get to his around the north carolina border, you didn’t see them because of the plantation economy because of the culture, but didn’t have a specific there wasn’t a civic civic sense. We have a community center. It was this my plantation, right? We take care of everything here. This is why two of the most revolution of things that happened down there was thomas jefferson’s, founding of the university of virginia north carolina’s found in one of the first state universities in the country because that was unheard of down there. It was just unheard of. So all of these efforts, as they say, we’re primarily northern. We have about a minute before the break the tax exemption. I feel like this is a good time. When did that? When did that attacks its first tax exemption started way, way, way back. Because you have to ask about which taxes so it’s probably gonna be more than wasn’t religion okay? Wasn’t religion, the religion first exemption religion and then also schools and things, things, things of that nature. So go back to them. Yeah, right. It broadened. But i started with okay, so we tease it together and always do. Thank you very much. Always a tease and i need to take a break. Weinger cps. He coached to you heard him on last. Week’s show the four hundredth very good guy. Check out the firm, then talk to him. Why? I g eat. Of course. No pressure. Tell him what you need that he’ll tell. You, whether weinger cps, can help you, of course. And if they can, then you know that help will extend beyond the numbers. Do the research talk tio get started at wagner cpas dot com. Now time for tony steak, too, who brings a sunshine to your mission? I’m urging you dive deep and think hard about who in your organ is critical to your mission. The worker bees, the hero worker bees often not seen tell their stories. Let’s. Start telling the behind the scenes stories, usual your digital storytelling capacity, and share this critical work with people who don’t see it. Because these air, not too forward facing people in your organization, your donors, you’re bored, you’re volunteers, even maybe even you know, if you’re big enough, maybe even employees. It’s, you know, this is the inside baseball, which is ironic, but that’s, as far as i could go with a sports metaphor. But i’ve heard of this thing it’s it’s called baseball and has touchdowns so people love this stuff. People who are outside it may be typical an ordinary to you but it’s not to people who don’t live it like you do every day. There’s more on my video at tony martignetti dot com we got to do the live love and were exploding west covina, california nan, you at new york pen sock in new jersey, rehoboth beach, delaware. Oh, i was in. I was in. Bethany had a very nice week. Very close to rehoboth. Live love, live love, delaware, new jersey. We got more in new york, but manual and california, tampa, florida west, long beach, new jersey looking new jersey exploding. Nan you at new york. Salt lake city, utah, new york, new york, multiple brooklyn, new york is here. New bern, north carolina is here. Live love to each of you, each of you on going abroad. Look, there’s! A whole page of going abroad. My god, it’s! Unbelievable! Manchester a sincere own paraguay ottawa. Tashkent, uzbekistan. Munich, germany. Iran, mexico city, mexico, santa catarina two new in guatemala, sudan we have a listener in sudan. We’ll show for the center in pakistan, so you know asia, oh, my goodness, live love, teo each of our live listeners love goes out thank you so much, and the podcast pleasantries to our over thirteen thousand. Now i’m pretty comfortable saying thirteen thousand, you know, sometimes some shows don’t quite reach that threshold, but enough have that i’m declaring it so podcast pleasantry store over thirteen thousand listeners you may be you may you may be listening six hours in a row. I don’t know, however you bunch them up pleasantries to you, thanks for being with us and the affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners throughout the country, like claire meyerhoff said last week, and as you’ve heard me say, terrestrial radio is going nowhere. It may not be blowing up like digital, but it will always be with us, so the affections go out to our am and fm listeners and stations across the country. Bob pen is with me. His new book is braided threads a historical overview of the american non-profit sector just get the book because, you know, we can’t do it justice. Of course, you’re interested in how our sector, our community evolved to what it is. Now get the book, you know, we’re hitting some threads, some braided threads, if you will, but you want the full story, you know, even, you know, bob mentioned something like oh, yeah, the dartmouth case, you know, i can’t remember it all just by the thing for pizza. All right, where were we see now i’ve ranted about bees and sunshine and all this live love, where were we? Well, and be me. Now tell me what you also screwed up the whole thing about how about your baseball? But that’s, another thing? Well, you have baseball doesn’t have touchdowns anyway, this donorsearch we’re talking about sex, we’re talking about taxes and tax exemption on that’s what you would ask about that. Thank you. So it started. Religion was the first one. Well, what period are we talking about now? We’re going going back to probably the sixteen hundreds of knows the point of matter-ness what taxes? Alright, what tax? Federal government levied very, very few texas before. That the state’s levy not that many taxes most taxes were on property and very early on churches were exempted from paying those taxes. Now it wasn’t just the church building. It also became the the parsonage where the minister lived. Then if there was a section of the building library, perhaps, then schools obviously we’re not text be they private or be the public clearly in public government is going to tax itself so public institutions like public school would never you were never text, but the idea was that it is the exemption list grew bigger and bigger new york state was obviously this was going on in all states, i happen to have a quite an extensive county in the book of how the new york state list just kept getting broader and broader and broader and broader. At one point, it was interesting because the law was changed to allow organisations that included in their charter or their mission. The enhancement of the minds of young people are something that’s. How the why, god and because the y had tried to get a tax exemption had gone to court, they’ve been turned down, they had to pay the tax bill, but everybody thought, you know why should be enough in this. So why is very interesting to er in the world wars? Well, that’s right in the book, right? That they were also involved. Yeah, this is the book. I don’t know, but what i’m saying is that the y was not really was not mentioned or organizations like yeah, why now you mention new york state? Yes, i love this one thing i want to read for this from seventeen, ninety nine new york state. You you cite new york state as sort of representative represent what was happening around them, what they’re worth, barry issues, but there’s very representative, this is an act for the assessment and collection of taxes new york state seventeen ninety nine excerpt. I won’t be the whole thing, of course, no house or land belonging to any church or place of public worship or any personal property belonging to any ordained minister of the gospel, nor any college or incorporated academy, nor any schoolhouse, courthouse, jail, arms house or property belonging to any incorporated library shall be taxed by virtue of this act, right? And that that was just kept going, as i said at one point, they amend it to include i figure the specific wording was something about the betterment of the minds of young men and women, because there was the y m c a, and the y w, c young, you know, young man’s and young ones christian association. So the law was changed. And basically what the courts said was that the’s operations were doing good. There were doing good things, and with beneficial to society and therefore society it was in society’s interest, but also as just the smart thing to do. We are going to do our bit by supporting them through the extent that we do so bye, alleviating them from the tax burden they were still not call non-profits because that concept him way later, but these organizations thes voluntary or for a long time was called the voluntary sector. The’s oh, yes, that was the name of these organizations increasingly became tax free. What we know today as thie people call them non-profits i’ll do this relatively quickly. One of the last revenue acts of the eighteen hundreds included this idea that these kinds of organizations could be should be exempted from federal taxes that particular revenue actors found unconstitutional. However, when things started to fall into place and you remember it was thie sixteenth amendment that made the income tax legal in the united states when that happened, the recognition that these organizations should be exempt was codified, and it had to be three things. Number one, it had to be incorporated as a non-profit what does that mean? It doesn’t mean they can’t make a profit that can make money know what it means. Is that what any excess extra it has to go back in? Well, it has to go back. And they can. This were contemporaneous with the sixteenth amendment. It was well shortly following them. But what is it? Non-profit means that rather mean doesn’t mean it can’t make money. No, that doesn’t that’s not what i mean what it means. They can’t take that profit and distributed to partners distributed to stockholders. Distribute it has to go back into the pot. That’s number one. The second thing is that no one of its activities can make money for any of the officers. Right? And the third, the third idea. Oh, is that the well, roll sunday, the ideas non-profit none distribute torrey and doing some sort of civic good and so very often was charitable and there was a charitable, educational and the list got, you know, bigger now fairly dilemmas in erry i like that word helium really, really lousy grayce let me share that’s what the reason? Every believe believe that it’s, but maybe you’re right a check, maybe. Alright, remember, i come from the bronx, so i’m different pronunciation. Um, well, you were wrong about you around baseball to sew our from president tax abilities. Alt-right president taxco comes from nineteen fifty four that was the first place where they laid out what we have today, this five oh, one c category and where the general exemption from originally, the idea was that if these organizations made money, they didn’t have to pay a corporate income tax on it. Then it became not legally, but in terms of practice that they are basically free from almost all taxes other than things like excise taxes or taxes on gasoline or something that you pay is part of a bill, which is why the local men’s association will go to a restaurant. And then have the banquet, and they give the the the owner hears my tax free by tax free number, and they won’t have to pay sales tax on the restaurant. Yeah. Okay. So that’s where all that came from, but it was in terms of its codification. Although the roots go back to the sixteen hundreds, codification goes back to nineteen. Fifty four. Okay. Is that the sixteenth amendment was at the sixteenth amendment? Was nineteen. Thirteen that’s? What? Allowed the ink allowed, permitted in income to federal income tax. Right. Okay. Okay. Let’s, uh, were world war i? We saw an expansion. Uh, yes, yes. What? Why? Why? Because because we really well, but because there was no functional way for the government to step in. One of the more fascinating things about it was that the human we’ve been told by the why? The why was the first organization two do what you think in terms like the red cross? You know, pow pow camps. You’re checking on status bringing, you know, president’s part. Nobody did that government sure affected neither the union or the confederate government. It was the why the y m c a that first started this. Bring this service to both sides to the confederates and northern. So they were they were in buy-in confederate pow camps ministering, so to speak, to union prisoners and vice versa. You say that the white was the first large scale service corps. Really? You could say that you you you can’t say that the other s o comes along world will once there was a knee for this but nobody else to do it. Okay, we gotta take a break. Take a break. Tell us you say you need more revenue. Have i heard rumors to that effect? Start your campaign. Talk to the businesses near you and those that are supporting you. Ask if those business people will consider switching their credit card processing to tell us. Explain to them that you will earn fifty percent of the fees that tell us gets you get half that’s the long stream of passive recurring revenue for your non-profit you’re voluntary organisation, check out the video at tony dahna slash tony tello’s now back to bob penna the way the y y m c a initially or was and why it was there right now while there’s two there’s one. I am cia, young men’s, christian association and the young women’s which came first. William. Okay, i think so. First, large scale service corps and well, what happened was this. You know, there was when world war one started and there was a need when the americans got involved, when there was a need to again bring services to this army that was being raised, whether it was, you know, outside of fort dix or whether it was, you know, eventually when the ghetto got, of course, the the other side across the pond. Allied expeditionary forces, right? American expeditionary. The whole idea was somebody had to do the same sort of thing. And why was the first one to step in a red cross, eventually join the salvation army, eventually joined. But all of this was being done privately. Meantime, both prior to america’s entry into the war and after it was a tremendous amount of refugee. If you will victims victims, relief. I mean, you know, war is terrible. Whatever ward is and there’s always collateral damage, the people who were displaced, the homes of the destroyed well during war governments don’t stop to worry. About taking care of that, they move on, they want it, they have a war to try to win. So who took care of those people? The refugee problem was tremendous. Belgium became one of the worst sites of it because when the germans invaded belgium, the allies said, well, you have to feed the belgians because most of the belgians of food came from outside. German said, no, we’re not going to be bother doing that were, you know, feeding our trip. You want to give them food, you give them food? Well, it was a relief effort that began in the united states that started working to bring food to belgium. But it was not government. It was all private. It was all voluntary was a what you today with called non-profit before our eyes. Actual pictures, one of the few pictures that are in the book before the war, before the u s got involved in the war when we’re supposed to be officially neutral. Yes, there were organizations raising money for the poor and the suffering and the widows in belgium and france. And but there were also organizations doing the same thing directing money to the german empire, the austria hungarian empire on turkey because we were officially neutral. So there are actually a couple of pictures in the book. I wouldn’t have shaved more pictures, by the way. Well, i like, well, i’m sorry next-gen next book, more pictures, but the whole idea was this entire effort was being done privately after the war massive relief effort run by herbert hoover, most of it not all of it. At that point, the u s government was committing money, but a great deal of it, you know? I don’t know proportion sixty percent maybe was well private today’s uso was formed by a collection of a bunch of the collaboration of a bunch of the organization’s yesterday the y m y w c a regular yeah, that’s, today’s, united service organised, right? Right. And that’s where that it was a coalition that was found was one with first ever like that on the first ever efforts. I mean, there are all sorts of things that happened back then that we we today, for example, you’ve heard of united way everybody knows united way, you know, we’re united what came from i don’t community chest community. Chest and you know it today. Most people know community chess is a sort of a space in the car on the reporter community chest wass local fund-raising specifically for disaster, personal tragedy, private relief. So if you lost your job or the factory burned down and five people lost, the job community chest was was was the entity in each individual community that would they would go to for relief? I mean, maybe if they belong to a particular denomination in the church might help him out as well, you know, temple or, you know, there’s a lot of that. I mean both and there’s a whole section in there on both jewish and catholic specific ah, contributions to what we know today as the american non-profit sector and that that’s interesting reading on on its own. But this isn’t to say the churches were involved, but every community there was no public relief. There was no public welfare. And so if dad died or fell off the roof and broke his leg and couldn’t work, there was no unemployment insurance. It was the worker’s comp people. Very often they went to community chest. What wound up happening was one of the transformative events was, we’ll make coal cooperative fund-raising if everybody fund-raising for fund-raising fund-raising whatever the look, the past tense of that is by themselves, you want with competing appeals and the banging into each other. Well, it actually started to believe it was a cleveland was one of the first ones i know there was one in denver, there was one in detroit, it was one i believe was cleveland. Was this around the is this also the hoover administration non-profits complain where we’re basically testified before congress were basically running over each stepping over each other, trying to trying to help? Oh, yeah, we’ll also show it was at the great depression or no, yes, yes, i know now that was baby. What you’re talking about was world war two upleaf stepping on each other in front of me. All right, that was world war to know what happened was when the when the depression hit sort of the thought was that this community chest step up in community chest tried they would have instead of one annual drive, they’re having to annual drives, they try three, but the problem is we all know was much bigger than anybody could have completed for scene and their efforts were just not up to the fact that the entire economy crashed, which is why government had to get in that well, it was obviously fdr, fdr important appointed harry hopkins to run the relief effort. Harry hopkins thought that it really should be local government that was doing this local governments setting off for the side. They’re very happy not to be involved. So when harry hopkins did was he said, ok, we’re gonna do this and it’s gonna be federal money, but none of the money can go to what today would call non-profits they got completely cut out. That was not right. That was not to punish that i’m no, that was to encourage that was the force, the state’s unwilling states and that had not taken on public welfare right to do it or we do it give the money to the state, but we federal money won’t go to thes community chest exactly, right? They’re trying to force the hand and unwilling recalcitrant states and localities and localities. But but, yes, that’s and that was hopkins idea. Of course. Now what did the non-profits do i mean, this kind of left them out in the cold? Now, you also have to realize that at this point we were talking about community chest, but this was one. This is not to say that the arts efforts weren’t going on, and people were founding zoos and botanical gardens, and a lot of this was originally founded by private garden clubs or a zoological society, but the nation was in crisis and relief. I was always from the charitable sector, which is why i was cold, and now they couldn’t do what anymore krauz was too big a job and be the federal money couldn’t go to them, have you? You have no soul, we invent themselves. I mean, i said us made early on what was the theme? I keep seeing resiliency and one of the things that they’re one of the earliest tests of this resiliency was after the depression because basically the feds said you can’t have anyone for you no more money for you, yeah, yeah, so say little about the jewish contribution. Tio what we know, i think this is all really fascinating. There’s a book believe guys named wrote it. Was cahill cal in-kind how taylor count it’s called the gifts of the jews the gift of the jews book is probably twenty years old, this point, but he makes the point that one of the biggest contributions that the jewish culture the jewish religion made to us here in the united states was, in fact cultural, cultural. It had to do with how human beings reviewed when the jewish immigration here started and watch. Think about where these people come from. They were either, you know, they were persecuted in czarist russia. They were persecuted in poland, which was part of czarist russia. They were kicked out of spain. I mean, you know, a thousand years of this, they had an outsider perspective nobody else had, and they brought that here with them. And when they got involved in charity and they were the ones they were the biggest analyze of the black civil rights movement, because their idea that nobody should be an outsider was central to them. And they brought that, too, that you think about today’s non-profit space. We are concerned about the handicapped. We’re concerned about all sorts of groups that you might call marginalizes. Semi marginalized and thiss was antithetical to the jewish world view. So to me, whereas a lot of these other charities were taken care of their own. So, for example, there was the irish working in such and such, but you had to be irish. The jew said, no, inclusive, inclusive. We’re gonna take our last break. Okay, text to give. Welcome them to non-profit radio by checking them out, please. Mobile donations made easy, it’s, simple, affordable, secure. If your donor’s consent a text that can make a donation, you get more revenue because it’s giving made easy text. Npr, to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine and that will get you info on text to give and that’s also the way to claim your special listener offer npr, too, for for foreign. Nine, nine nine. We’ve got about six more minutes for how we got here. We visited. Excellent. Thank you. The jewish tradition. I just i cannot emphasize that enough, because i mean, truly today if you look at the whole core of the non-profit mission, it is inclusivity. And i personally feel that without the incredible jewish influence that particularly here in new york and new york became kind of like one of those centers of the non-profit war with still is i cannot emphasize enough how strongly i believe that that that this world view yeah, that thread truly, truly helped imprint of what we have today. You got to get the book because there’s some things were not going to be a lot of the great depression. Kennedy’s, new frontier. And then johnson, johnson as and jesus or against four war on poverty way have what? Three, four minutes? Five. Okay, well, i want to talk about the future too. Okay? Then i’ll do. So just do johnson. Johnson set us on the road that we’re on the war on poverty, right? Warren? Right? The great society war on poverty. We are today farther down that road and that road is been fancied up. There are, you know, they’re curbs where maybe it didn’t. Used to be curbs there’s, a newer pavement, nicer pavement and original, but it is the exact same road. What johnson did was, he said, we’re going to take federal money and we’re going to change poverty. We’re gonna eradicate whatever his goal was, but it wound up that it wasn’t the government that was doing it. It was government money going to community action agencies and two non-profits now we don’t time now to go to talk about what happened to non-profits during the fifties between world war two and way, just get the book and, well, i have the book. Oh, you mean elation gets into the thirteen thirteen thousand we’re joining this mission, i hope to god you have a copy, then that’s a different story, but the whole point was that it was hard to get for me to get one lbj lbj set us on the road that we’re on, we’re on now and my feet feeling, and maybe there are people in this sector would argue, you know, this is my theory is that basically things have not really changed in direction, they’ve changed in degree. Now the nonprofit sector is not just the partner of government there’s, it’s it’s dependent upon the government. I mean, look what happened to the sector during the depression. It wasn’t the individual stop giving individuals even during the worst of the great recession we’re giving. Corporal was down the corporate snot that big. It was government money. The sector today is very, very reliant on. So again, johnson set us on the road that run now, and we are just farther down it and very much deeper into it. I want to look, look, look forward. You cite generational change too, and technology change as our biggest lorts opportunity, opportunities and challenges. I think i think two of the two of the three biggest things because we end the book on what’s happening in the future. That’s the last of the west. Thirty. Twenty five percent of the book, i think that’s the three biggest things that are impacting the sector and sectors largely unaware of it is number one the growth we’re adding fifty thousand a year in nineteen, ninety, there were a couple of hundred thousand non-profits in united states today there was a startling chart in the book of the pictures that was the charge. You know i have a dream that my son dramatic rise now there’s over one point seven. Six million, actually, nobody as is less to solomon who’s, one of the sages of the of the of the sector says, but nobody really knows how many there are. And it’s because there’s no registration, there’s reporting different story so the growth thiss can’t just go on fifty thousand new ones a year, even given three to four percent you know, dwindling and going away talk about technology and second missions technology you talked before about making online donations easy that is changing the paradigm between donors and organizations such as we’ve never seen before. You and i are oven oven age when we still remember ah, march of dimes going door to door. All right, that is all the canisters canisters, but think about it now we’re making so easy for online or text, but we’re also making very easy to give uninformed donations because it’s impulse it’s on the second and right there in your finger, the third thing is the generational change we’re already seeing the statisticians and the demographic demographer has already seen a great great great change in terms of values and behavior, almost the millennials and us, but not just us also the generation right behind us. So these three things churning bart have the power to totally change the non-profit sector as we know it over the course of the next fifteen years and all i’m saying is we as a sector should be aware of these things and be prepared for what could happen and maybe try to steer the ship instead of just being a cork bobbing along where the tides and the winds take us where they want. Just get the book for god’s sake, bob pender braided threads a historical overview of the american non-profit sector you’ll find bob and his book at braided threads dot com thank you very much, bob. Thank you. Valuable book. Just it’s. Well, it’s it’s it’s, amazon is bond’s amglobal dot com that’s where i would send everybody there in-kind braided threads dot com all right, wrap it up. Well, you’re done. I’m done next week. Peter panepento returns with his co author for your media relations strategy. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony. Martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools, small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p wagner. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com bye, tell us credit card payment processing, your passive revenue stream, tony that m a slash tony tell us on by text to give mobile donations made easy text npr. To four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. Bob and i were just talking about that. Our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz, is a line producer. Shows social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent now that you know your history, go out and be going. You’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving nothing. Cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in center of attention. Tune in every tuesday at line to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c buy-in. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? 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Nonprofit Radio for July 6, 2018: Peer-To-Peer Peek & Poverty Porn

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Noah Barnett & Kenny Kane: Peer-To-Peer Peek
Our panel from the Nonprofit Technology Conference shares an overview of community-driven fundraising. How do you plan for, inspire and activate your supporters? They’re Noah Barnett from CauseVox and Kenny Kane with Testicular Cancer Foundation.

 

 

Amy Sample Ward: Poverty Porn
Amy Sample Ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping, while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively? She’s our social media contributor and CEO of Nonprofit Technology Network (NTEN).

 

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Duitz hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into righteous, sardonic ous if you expected me to smile when you say you missed today’s show peer-to-peer peak, our panel from the non-profit technology conference shares an overview of community driven fund-raising how do you plan for inspire and activate your supporters? They’re noah barnett from causevox and kenny kane with testicular cancer foundation and poverty porn. Amy sample ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively she’s, our social media contributor and ceo of the non-profit technology network, and ten tony take two a big lump of thanks responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com and by telling by telus turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream, tony dahna em a slash tony tell us, here are noah barnett and kenny. Kane from the non-profit technology conference welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of twenty eighteen non-profit technology conference hashtag is eighteen ntc where the convention center in new orleans, louisiana. This interview, like all our ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by network for good, easy to use donorsearch and fund-raising software for non-profits i guess now are noah barnett and candy cane. Noah is head of marketing for causevox and candy cane is, you know, the testicular cancer foundation. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for having us, this’s. Great talent. Yeah. No it’s. Great. Not that in ten things. Not great. It’s. Exceptional. Yeah. It’s. Exceptional. Thank you. And ten. Thank you. All right. Your workshop topic is community driven. Fund-raising how do you use peer-to-peer to cultivate dahna relationships and reach new donors? That sound familiar? Yeah, absolutely. We just wrapped up our session. We’re already done. Yeah, we’re all done outside. Yes. Yeah, we’re on the downswing. So this’s the after party’s victory last put both put it well, community driven fund-raising let’s, start with you, let’s. Start close to know what’s what’s not being done quite right. That non-profits could do better. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is we’ve gone through a few shifts in fund-raising we went through this idea of there was, like, localized fund-raising back in the day, and then we went to mass fund-raising where we basically didn’t differentiate any of our appeals, we sent all that out. And now today, like, i think there’s a fundamental shift where we’ve moved into what we call the connected economy, where the lines between digital and offline are starting to blur, and that requires a shift in how we approach fund-raising and we see kind of a playbook for the connected economy is community driven. Fund-raising okay, b i like the way you you sort of set this up for us the lines between online and the physical world and our real life are blurring indeed, yeah, okay, so we’re bringing these things together? Yes, okay. Peer-to-peer community driven. Okay, yeah, we’re calling it the connected economy because we’re just connected to anybody anywhere, at any time, through technology and our lives are more connect xero never. So why shouldn’t our causes b similarly should should we be similarly connected to our cause is exactly through our community. Exactly. Okay, kenny, anything you want to add? To the start up? Yeah, i would just say that you know what? The testicular cancer foundation were really big on storytelling and creating compelling stories that resonate with our audience? Not only, you know, as someone who’s been through it as a caregiver myself, but, you know, we try to put ourselves on the other end of the computer screen or the phone. What have you where these stories will compel people to act compel people to donate compel people that take action? Okay, let’s, stay with you. You’re right, your description says and in fact, in bold face, your description says that you will share with us exactly how to do this. How did so where where should we start? Where we’ve been, you know, everybody sees peer-to-peer well, let me take a step back, my ok to synonymous eyes peer-to-peer and community fund-raising or you guys drawing a distinction between those two? Yeah, we’re definitely drawing in this sham. Please set. Educate me. Yeah, so i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is what we’re calling the umbrella that lays over all the various aspects of fund-raising where your community of supporters are actually the key. Driver of success in the campaigns here, it appears your war is a tactic inside of that larger exactly and so in community driven fund-raising there’s kind of a scale of the different types of things that qualify as that that moves from organization led meaning, like the organization is starting a campaign like e-giving tuesday campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, an annual campaign all the way down to supporter initiated, which could be i’m wanna raise money for cancer. And i’m choosing to do that for the testicular cancer foundation. But i decided, as a supporter to do that, he didn’t created environment for me to do that was organic. Okay, thank you so well. Refrain from making those two synonymous. I’m being too narrow. Choosing one method. One tactic. Okay. All right, exactly how kenny. Where where did wish we get started? We yeah, so appealing. But i don’t know where to get going. Sure. So in this rolling in my last role, which was a broader young adult cancer non-profit called stupid cancer. The same rules apply. So you have people who are affected by cancer? Cancer was huge. Yes. Did you have in north, like millions of kids and engaged around. Um, i know you’re probably right way did pretty well. Yeah, it still exists. They’re still there. Still hammered away at it. He’s going to take a little he’s, one of the co founders of super cancer. Yeah. Ok, so? So the long story short is that my father was diagnosed at age fifty with testicular cancer, which put me on a path towards can frat advocacy in my early twenties. And about two years ago, my friend matt first learn who’s, the founder of testicular cancer foundations and eighty want move from new york latto austin i said, sure. Oh, and i’ve taken over testicular cancer foundation. Okay, but getting back to you know that the same rules apply where we serve people who are in a a disadvantage spot going through cancer. You know, whether it’s a survivor, the patient, the caregiver who is helping the person caregivers often forgot. Yes, characters need to take care of them. So i was here to be coddled and cared for one hundred percent. That was made. Uh, so what we do is we see these people go along a path of being recipients of the mission. Being beneficiaries of the mission, and then they come back, you know, to three years out and, you know, they decide they want either run a marathon or they want to create a cancerversary party cancerversary is a really big milestone where on the, you know, annual date of their diagnosis or when they finish treatment which everyone they choose people will give back, and typically they get back to the non-profit that help them? You know, i think it’s probably similar in all chronic health. I know what i know. An oncologist office where they have a bell, you ring the bell, your final treatment? Yeah, i’ve seen a bell if tina got probable. Yeah. It’s a great milestone, you know, on and i had my own i’m sympathetic to caregivers. I mean, i had some sense of it before this, but during the summer this past last year, summer and in the fall so october, my mom was declining and i was my mom. My dad and i were were caregivers and just watched her, and then she actually died early october of twenty seventeen, so i it was became even more became even more aware of how. You need to take care of yourself. I know. It’s just one component of what testicular cancer is doing. Share the caregivers. You know, i often think that they have to be selfless. Andi, can’t you cannot give up your own life, teo, give another to get to another. You’ll burn out there’s a lot of self care that goes into your caregiver. So when we talk about the community aspect of community and fund-raising, you know, and i’m so let the host tigress i’m sorry. Sorry about that. Sorry about mom. Thank you. Host back-up kottler disgust like, welcome to the show cubine xero all week so community german fund-raising candy cane is goingto yeah, so the same rules apply so people go through this process, they come back and for every person who was perhaps turned away from the person going through this acute episode of, you know, not episode, but a stretch of cancer treatment. What? Not whether somebody wanted to give them food or take them to the doctor’s appointment person kind of turned away community driven fund-raising is a great way to really activate your community of people who wanted to help you and in the past, we have created opportunities for fundraisers to convert into things like travel scholarships to a patient conference. So if you’re this arrive, er, you could fund-raising within your community to raise money for travel reimbursement, so it’s not necessarily scholarship, is a little bit more democratic of a process scholarship can get a little tricky. So this skull, this reimbursement program that we did it stupid cancer actually allowed the people around the person affected to help fund their way to the conference while doing ah e-giving back to charity, getting the tax benefits all that. But it was just a really nice way of recognizing what that person had been through. It’s time for a break pursuant. Their newest paper is the digital donation revolution. You’re online donors have high expectations of you because of the swift transactions that they enjoy at amazon. Zappos, even some banks, the digital giving bar has been raised. How do you get over? Get the digital donation revolution it’s on the listener landing page, tony dot m a slash pursuant radio now back to peer-to-peer peak and then so what’s the broader lesson for our listeners in small and midsize shops. But know anybody? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is just a reframing of how we approach raising money and building awareness for the causes that were advocating for okay, bye, basically recognizing the true value that every person in your non-profits community and as a community of supporters, whether they’re known or unknown supporters of your organization, typically we look at it from just a financial perspective. And so what community room fund-raising says, is that it’s not just about the money, that supporter khun give you its about their influence in the time they can give you a swell? And in the connected economy, the influence that a supporter has is actually more valuable than it’s ever been before, because brands are being kind of blocked out of feeds, whether it’s, facebook, it’s becoming really difficult for non-profits to reach any new people. And so by turning inward and saying, how can we actually empower our supporters by inspiring, activating and rallying them? Latto actually be the fundraisers for organization, ok, how do we get? How do we activate this within our own organization way we need to be thinking through sure, who should be. In the team discussing, i feel like we’ve spent enough time on motivation, what are some steps? How do we get started? I’m interested, but i don’t know how to organize myself. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, i think community german fund-raising is just like a lens on how you approach fund-raising and so i think it’s important to have non-profit leadership buy-in but also a fund-raising team in general and communications because communities and fund-raising is basically saying, we’re going to inspire people in our community becomes supporters rather than guilt them, then we’re going to activate those people that have true potential to become fundraisers and advocates for our cause instead of and we’re not trying to convince people to do that. We’re just activating the potential that’s already, and they’re already exists. Exactly, and they were rallying them together so fundraisers usually see raising money and reaching new donors as their responsibility. Community driven fund-raising says no it’s, actually your job to be a player coach and basically see your community is a valuable asset to helpyou fund-raising help you grow your impact, help you reach new donors, but i’m gonna ask you again. But how do we get? Started? I mean, maybe is that identifying certain people to maybe seed the program. I understand you’re not throughout the life of the pregnant thing, okay, you do something, you do something, but we need some seeds. Yeah, i think what we do is all we always advise people to understand the different stages of community fund-raising and so the first stage is inspiring. And so as you look at your current fund-raising whether it’s an event, whether it’s a male piece, how do you look at that piece and see it from a lens that you’re not trying to convince someone or guilt someone to gives your cause? We’re actually trying to inspire them and because inspiration leads to sharing and action. Okay, so so, yes, we wanted to share exactly. And then inside your current supporters, which is the second stage, which is activation, identifying key supporters that are ready to do something more. And so one of our customers world bicycle relief every time someone donates at that moment of inspiration that they’ve someone’s been inspired to support the cause, they want to provide a next step toe activate them to actually be an advocate or a fundraiser for the cause and so it’s something as simple as that by they implement this new program and they’re just asking new donors if they want to do more and presenting the opportunity. And if you apply the commuter and fund-raising methodology, you could find things across your current fund-raising program where you just shift your mindset to be how it can we make this more community focus rather than organization driven it’s sort of empowering them to indeed, i’m just adding another i mean, you’re talking about no inspiring them so that they share and then they take action. Yep, i guess i’m calling it empowering them and giving them well in power and giving them permission and maybe some tools. Two work with yeah, right, the backdrop is shaking video would be stable, it’s not going to fall, but it shook. I would have to say that, you know, historically, we’ve created fund-raising or maybe you donate twenty dollars, to yourself so that you don’t share this fundraiser with a zero balance the same rules apply to when you’re launching a campaign, you really need the buy-in have trusted ah, folks in your, you know, in your group people that, you know will create a buzz, and you certainly don’t want to launch it on deaf ears, right? Yeah, with xero balance, etcetera. You mentioned storytelling earlier, you seem to make a point of how important that is. How does that help us? I guess at the first stage that noah was describing inspiring the community, i think i think it contextualized is and provides insight into your motivation as a fundraiser. How do we start telling these stories? I want to get into the nitty gritty here, so, you know, obviously we’re up against the algorithm of any given social media platform and, you know, you could do it whether it’s, tio email or through, you know, social post, but really providing, you know, maybe a before and after photo in my case, where people are, you know, going through treatment and they come out with a smile on their face, that’s the best case scenario and just really humanizing it. You know, we talked a lot in our session today about being human throughout the fund-raising process, i think it’s really easy to get kind of technical and robotic about it and just create opportunities. For people that self serving, you know, creative latto fund-raising page and then never to be heard from again. I think. Causevox and, you know, i know. Using causevox. We aim. Tio certainly create opportunities for more than that. So you actually have a relationship with the non-profit as you’re going through the fund-raising fund-raising stages and and finishing the campaign about empowering people tell their own stories so that it doesn’t it’s not coming from the organization, but giving them the option to create a two minute self didio or log on their own power way actually saw this firsthand so and ten is a non-profit who hosts this conference, and what they did was they said, how can we raise money for scholarships so that people could come to this conference for free? Who can afford it? And one of the biggest things they did was they said, you know, we have ten board members that have influence and ability to do this and so let’s empower them to tell the community why ntcdinosaur others to them and fund-raising on our behalf, and so they were able to raise over eighteen thousand dollars, and i just saw the banner over there and there’s, you know, fifty, sixty, seventy different donors that came together to help support that campaign, and all they did was they said, hey, boardmember is ur supporters were goingto activate you to tell your story on our behalf, and they did it with did videos they wrote like testimony is different content, and so they didn’t say one thing to the other again. Theyjust activated those supporters and said, hey, can you share your story with the community and raise money on dh. They were able to do that and there’s people at this conference because of what those board members did in the stories that they told you. Excellent. So so starting capital so we’re activating people that they share a men that they take the act take the action of, of actually beginning fund-raising fund-raising on their own as we’re okay. It’s rise. Where going through this process of empowering, i would have described how you describe it. Do we need to circumscribe it a little bit boundaries around it? For listeners, that might be a little leery of maybe the the power they were transferring too much power. Yeah, we’re powering know it talked a lot about this during the session about giving, you know, the non-profit needs to give up a certain degree of control. You want to talk about that? Yeah. And i think that’s why? The third phase of commuters fund-raising is about rallying, not controlling. And so i think our default is well, how do we control this? How do we do this? How do we do that? I think in the connected economy, all the powers with the customer and it’s on the non-profit to realize that their supporters have more power than they think. And so they can try to control them. Or they can really say hey, let’s, rally this let’s, support this and help drive this forward, and so i think if you jump to taking a control position instead of how do we actually rally people in the right direction? Um, you’re going to miss huge opportunities really activate your community. You know, this reminds me of the fears that non-profits had around facebook. Oh yeah, allowing people to come it’s been going on for years? Yeah, come on their facebook page. I don’t know if we’re going to allow those car. Yeah, we should have opened commenting and posted. Yeah, well, circling back earlier we were talking about, you know, the storytelling aspect and in the cancer world and again in the probably the chronic illness world of non-profits it’s a beautiful thing when you have somebody sharing their story, whether we are sharing on the behalf, which is most of the time when you see in the comments let’s say they have a rare type of brain tumor or something like that they’ve never met or connected with another young adult with cancer, let alone somebody who has their exact same diagnosis toe watch that unfold in the comment section where now these people are going to be able to support one another, the fact that you facilitated that on the non-profit side, i’s, amazing and it’s only going to contribute to the overall strategy of activation and engagement getting people teo really buy into your non-profit buy-in to your mission. And you showed a great example that stupid cancer had a different name before it was stupid cancer, and it was, you know, this moment when they said everyone calls us stupid cancer because that’s the tagline so let’s actually switch. So he convinced the founder of the organization to switch the name to stupid cancer and make the name of the organ kapin line right and kind of say, you know, hey, like, we’re going to give power to this community that wants to be a part of this and that’s when they saw growth from two thousand two hundred fifty thousand like you saw hundreds of thousands dollars being raised because they just again said, hey, we’re not going to control this. We’re not going to, you know, they would correct people be like we’re not the stupid cancer guys where the i got every one of the other name it wasn’t i’m too young for this cancer and it’s very slavic, every word. But they gave up that control. And then they saw, like the mo mentum in the community like flourish. And i think what was interesting is that still progressed. What their mission, ford wass maybe in ways they never expected or never would have done themselves. But it’s still pushed the mission forward. And i think that’s the opportunity that non-profits small, large, medium all have today. And we see it time and time again with our customers at causevox and in parallel, you know, you don’t get to decide what school your audience is. The same sort of thing with fund-raising storytelling. All the concepts were presenting today, it’s all about the audience and did, uh, what about let’s? Talk a little more about building this into your annual fund-raising plan? Okay, okay, uh, what you’re the experts. I have a plan now, and i don’t feel like i’m sufficiently community driven or or at all community community supported what i need to rethink. Well, not just what we’ve already covered. But how do we get this in my plan? Yeah, i think what’s interesting is fundraisers have like the same playbook, and they just think if they do more of it that there’ll be more successful. Andi, i think that’s why the burnout rate for fundraisers is so significant in our industry is because they feel as though there’s one playbook to run, which is more events, more emails, more mail in wartime decides that they have exhausted that playbook organization. W ell, move onto organization, yeah, try again no more, yeah, and i think what’s also thing is it it creates this window shopping experience where you’re always looking at other non-profits and being like man, if i only had what they have, i would be able to solve and what we challenged our people that attend our session is that you really need to look at the challenges and reframed them. And so we said is instead of saying, okay, i need to do more of these things, it’s saying as part of my annual fundraising campaign, whether other things like we can do and what we provide, it was saying, how about we take a look at our community and see if there’s opportunities that we can inspire our community, activate them and rally. Them to actually help raise more money and reach new donors. Okay, that’s part of our annual can i would i would add that, you know, people listen, this interview who were saying, all right, how do i deploy this? You certainly don’t want to cannibalize anything that’s working for you, so if you raise a ton of money in queue for, you know, don’t don’t suddenly pivot and say, all right, i’m going to try to spread that out for the rest of the year, and then suddenly you’re exhausted by q for but there’s a lot of little things you can do through out the year like being more human, connecting with your audience, giving up the control is we’ve, you know, keep reiterating on just being more of a social entity, you know, that’s kind of what it comes down to is is it’s not a one way communication channel? It’s you know, the feedback goes both ways, yeah, yeah, and i think it’s, just even seeing the potential and being able to create the opportunities were actually saying we’re asking for more things than money, so a quick story i spent six years running growth at an international relief non-profit and i was overseeing growth, but that was communications and development, and so our major gift officers, obviously we’re hard core, like, go after money, cultivate new gifts year over year, and when i told them when i oversaw them was like there’s, other opportunities for these major donors to make a difference, their influence and their time are really valuable, you know, major donors know a lot of other major donors, and so we continually go back and say, the only thing we want from you is your money. We’re only going to get a portion of their value and so weak went to them and said, hey, you know, would you want to do something interesting by, like, leveraging your major gift to run a matching gift campaign? Or do you want to do a employee engagement campaign at your non-profit or do you wantto basically go into the business network that you’re a part of and share this opportunity, teo promote and inspire other people to support the cause? And what we saw is that the more that we got them to invest, their influence and their time, the more money they like. Well, how do you make those ass? You just picked off like three things? How do you make? So i think in the major gifts side, obviously, you know, it involves, like face-to-face conversations and having a conversation and providing examples of what other individuals but that’s, what people do you wantto do this campaign or, you know, activate matching gift? So what do you make those asks? You want to do your own work? Place campaign? Yeah, so i think obviously in major gifts, it’s different because you have a personalized contextual relationship with that individual. And so if you know that they’re a ceo of a company, you can have a dialogue about that and say, you know, how are you engaging your employees to give back as a community, you obviously care and see your legacy as giving gifts into our organization. How is your company doing? And so it’s having a conversation around that, i think in the broader sense where you’re asking a broader audience to do fund-raising is again making sure that you’re not asking everybody and just being like, hey, this is a new way that you can give to our information are give to our organization rather looking for segments of your audience that are ready to do something, whether that means they’re new donors, they’re volunteers, their board members, they’ve been giving monthly for ten years looking for signals that they have the potential to do something and that’s why we say that second phase is about activation because that means they already have the ability to do it. You’re just activating that, and so it can’t just be this broad sweeping thing where it’s like hey, now you can raise money on x y and z on behalf of our cause. That’s not gonna work. You just ticked off a bunch of very good identify irs indeed you are. Whom i who this might be appropriate for kenny, i want to go back to something that you said earlier. The feedback has to be both ways yet not organization too. Everybody correct this so that involved really listening on the organization’s it’s hard. Sometimes you don’t hear things. I mean, you might not. You’re not always gonna hear things you want to hear. Talk about. You know how how an organization khun sort of shift culture in terms of real listening, engagement that way i think i think you guys were just talking about some really important, which is the signals, you know, in a non-profits situation have a lot of people who will come to the table and, you know, people have ideas, people have always do this, you should do that. And, you know, one of the things that we always say is if you don’t pay attention to mission, eh, you know, mission b, c and d, whatever we’ll all fail. So listening is important, you know, for us, the example of changing the name of the organization was kind of a really big undertaking. When you look back at it, i think that you just have to have a qualifying process, you know, kind of ah, multiphase approach to letting feed back into the top and looking at the person who is suggesting it, and kind of like i said, creating a rubric to take me back in and, you know, you have a border directors for a reason. So if the board is providing you with information, obviously it’s probably a good thing that listen to but also people who were out of the core. Of the apple can sometimes ride the most meaningful feedback and again trying to figure you gotta be you gotta be ready to hear that, you know, not only not only listening to your board and also where they’re coming from, what is their motivation for providing this feedback? And if i can have two things that what we did at my non-profit is first and foremost we had to convince the organization that the donors in our supporters actually mattered so much of our head was like, we’re doing great work, and we just need people to give us money. And so what we did was every week we had an hour designated, so we got leadership buy-in where everybody in the organization wrote thank you notes to donors, and so that started to say, hey, we’re going to center on this, and then we started doing what? Like surveying or net promoter scorer type things where we asked, hey, you know, would you recommend our organisation to a friends, family or colleagues? If so, why? Why do you support our organization? And we actually started using their responses in our fund-raising copy because they were telling us why. They support our organization in a way that was specific that we could actually share with others, and they also told us ideas on how we could improve, and so i think the person foremost is you have to cultivate that idea that you’re actually gonna listen because you value that person’s opinion, and second is you just have to ask, i think we asked for money all the time, but we don’t ask for what people think or why they support our organization or how could we improve this organization? How could we reach new people? We asked that question to a small segment of donors. They gave us tons of ideas that we were able to filter throughout our organization. Good dahna we’re going to leave it there, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for having us. You’re not on the you’re not watching the video. They’re both redheads on thei r noah barnett, head of marketing for causevox and can he came ceo of the testicular cancer foundation and cofounder of stupid cancer? And so i have that right way. Three a curveball and you just handled it. It’s amazing. Oh, yeah. Thank you. You get to use overviewing ingratiate something alright, way where he’s trying to get in by the back i’ve been listening sarrantonio twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of eighteen ninety see this interview sponsored by network for good, easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits thank you so much for being with us. We need to take a break, wagner cps in the last two weeks, we had segments on storytelling. You don’t want your storytelling to be so compelling that it leads to restricted gif ts or even or just lots of restricted gif ts regular has you covered their block post is avoiding restrictions from donations inspired by storytelling it’s that wagner cps dot com click resource is then blawg in a moment. It’s poverty porn right now! Time for tony’s take two i have a big lump of listener thank you it’s not segregated it’s not discriminated against by whose name listed first or second or third. And, of course, any discrimination on non-profit radio is benign non video ce discrimination anyway, but we’re not doing that this this week. I am just grateful to everyone who listens to the show supports the show exultant and that i don’t care what platform you listen. What time of day, whether your digital or analog, however, you are listening to the show or supporting the show. Thank you. You make maybe ah, you’re just you’d listen occasionally and you get my insider alerts. So you know who the guests are each week you cherry pick that’s. Fabulous. Take it as you need it. Thank you. To everyone who listens and supports non-profit radio. My video gratitude is that tony martignetti dot com now, let’s, bring in any sample ward. She is our social media contributor and ceo of and ten, the non-profit technology network. Our most recent car, third book is social change. Anytime. Everywhere about online multi-channel engagement she’s at amy, sample ward, dot or ge and at a m e r s ward. Welcome back, amy. Sample word. Hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s. My pleasure to have you back. This is, uh uh. This is the have you been back on the show since and ten since auntie si thie ntc. I don’t think this might be the first time i think it is. I’m pretty sure because i was leaving you alone. Because i figured, you know, there’s clean up to do and thank you’s to sand and lots of stuff. So, um, and then you had a staff planning. Then you have your staff planning time. Yeah. So to two times a year. All of the staff. Because not everyone is here in the portland office. Let me have some remote dafs. Everybody comes to portland for a week together of planning and craft and happy hour and things like that. Wonderful. Yes. I think they call it staff planning, but planning is not all that we dio excellent. Nor should it be, because you’re all together only twice a year. So you have many vulture virtual employees, so congratulations on a wonderful and fun. And i hope from your perspective, successful certainly was for mine. Ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, i think it was a really good year. You think so? Too good. Yeah. I’m good. I’m definitely fun. I know it was fun. I know that’s. Not a question, but we’re doing it for a little more off. Just the fun purpose fundez one is up, there fundez up there, but education and technology, you know. They rank, too, but congratulations, thank you for being part of it again. Thank you. It was my pleasure. We gotta lot. We got thirty interviews for non-profit. Yeah, great, no, thank you. Okay, so we’re talking today about poverty porn. You said this had come up for you in aa, some discussions or members have been raising it. You’ve you’ve been hearing ah, little more chatter about this. Yeah, i think that organizations are organizations have been criticized for participating in poverty porn for years, but i think those have often been organizations that are really, really big operating on an international scale global scale that are maybe more vulnerable to criticism, because so so many people are saying what they’re doing, and they’re raising so much money. And, you know, with all of that kind of spotlight and revenue, i think naturally organizations, regardless of what they dio, are open to criticism of lots of different forms, right? But now i think organizations, they’re starting to see yes, well, you know, maybe criticize those organizations for years, but also maybe we’re a part of that. And what does that mean for us? You know, you don’t just have to be really, really large organization are making lots and lots of revenue off of a single appeal to have some issues with the way your year doing your work, so i think it’s organizations are starting to see that there, maybe starting to ask more questions because they’re getting, you know, the the digital teams who are managing that content are starting to feel like if something does happen, you know, they’re the ones that posted that photo or sent that tweet or whatever and really wanting to figure out how how to navigate what what’s the best way to tell this story? Yeah, andan avoid a potential backlash. Yeah, um, how would you define this? Do you? Ah, i have a way, but i’m going to hear, you know, how would you define poverty porn? I got i don’t have probably an eloquent, succinct definition, but if i was explaining poverty porn, teo an organization i think you know, without knowing whoever we’re talking to what their mission is, you know, poverty point is when you’re who’s may be taking advantage of the difference between the audience you’re calling tau action most often it’s for donations and these people that you are serving in whatever way, instead of maintaining the humanity of everyone involved in that situation and honoring all that all of those people have and really owning the story. About what you do in the power of in this example, their donation, versace trying to exacerbate the difference and the things that are, quote unquote not had about this group that you’re serving and focusing on that discrepancy, i think to me and is really what it’s about you you’re not maintaining everyone’s humanity and then highlighting the service, you provide your instead, maybe kind of further opening divide and most of the backlashes that i’ve seen or, you know, examples of this on the on the web are our images, but could be written off as easy as you can see, right majority video, but a written description could also be oh, totally exploitative or, you know, you have the language that we use to describe communities we could also highlight that that gap that you’re describing, yeah, um, no it’s ah it’s it’s very sensitive, you know, because we are trying to do very good work and we are motivated and our mission statements are or are around help of this vulnerable population, whatever it might be, whatever country it might be. I mean, it’s not a lot of the lot of the images are from abroad. I mean, i see a lot of, like, south america, central america, africa, but it could, you know, it could be right here in the u s to i mean, you could certainly go astray with images and written descriptions of conditions right here, right here in the u s certainly right, but, you know, so where were motivated by the right? Um, in the right directions, but right, but we, uh, you know, it may just be is easy, if, you know, consciousness raising, which is what our conversation hopefully is doing, and certainly a lot of the conversation, you know, like i saw things back too, like twenty, thirteen or so talking about this subject. So i think a lot of it because our motivations are, you know, i always impute good motivations toe non-profits and most people no, there are good, you know, it’s just raising country business. I mean, i think that is there are lots of tactical things that we could talk. Yeah, you’re right, it’s not just, you know, you’re right your underlying the thing that’s really going to create change is that organizations and the individuals in those organizations actually do some, really hard work two to figure out an address and accepts and try and move forward from all the biases that they’re bringing to their work the again, even if their motivation, their intent internally, is field pure and good to them, it could still be coming from a really kind of dangerous place that they are the savior of that community, right? And that in itself isn’t is a bias that’s going to mean you? You cannot create content, whether that’s, you know, photos are writing these descriptions that not coming from that place, right? So i think doing that internal work to say, gosh, how are we, you know, without explicitly like deciding to do this, how are we already coming at this from not the best a place you know, and as an organization, whatever the practices or policies that we have that can help us change that? I mean, you know, if we want to start at the big picture level, don’t think about tactics, things like do every single one of your staff regularly have opportunities to interact with the community members you serve if they don’t, they’re not in a position to speak from a place where they understand the shared humanity, they understand that everyone both inside the organization and those being served all have strengths and weaknesses and hopes and dreams and challenges and are at a place to really, i think, talk about the work anymore, productive way, you know. So even just at that level are you creating opportunities for every single one of your staff to be a part of the community? I think i’m always surprised how many organizations where they say, oh, no, if you work in the office, you don’t ever talk to the community, only our program staff do that. Why would you do that? You know, why would you create this while the silo between the staff talking about the work stopped deciding how the work is going to be done and the people participating in that work? That doesn’t make any sense to me? And those opportunities need to be more than photo opportunities do no the right there’s, lots of examples, you know, it has to be meaningful, you know, there’s one of the iconic ones, i guess infamous one’s better better than iconic. What if this one’s is, you know, eyes ellen. Too generous in nairobi with lots of kids around her and, um, there’s one of each year in wearing the red nose with liberian children around him. I know so. And what i mean, i think it’s really smart to bring that up, eh? Because now people now everybody listening to our conversation, i can think of the same kind of image, but also that i think totally the kind of thing that organizations i would think to dio with staff, right is like, okay, here, the folks that we serve here’s some of quote unquote us let’s take a photo together and inevitably, these photos like the two you just suggested when you’re years ago, like ellen and nairobi or add in liberia it’s like here is this person in the center of all these other people, and you are both figuratively and literally centering yourselves instead of centering your community. This is now not a photo about those people. This is a photo about you on dh that is kind of the epitome of what we’re talking about here, right? Is that you have come in to save them your services, you’re donations, you or whatever it is. Are literally the center instead of this community truly getting too to be in that place. So i think that’s a really great, like daily kind of check, check and balance for yourself when you’re when you’re looking at two weeks or you’re looking at the way you describe something that you’re looking at, a photo you can just say is this photo centering the people that we’re serving? Or is this photo about us? Um and there are certainly times where photo should be about you, but that doesn’t mean that the photo should be you surrounded by people you served. Maybe then it’s a photo of just your staff at, you know, the conference table looking on something or if you know what i mean it it’s going to be about you make it on ly about you and not you, in contrast to your community. Very good point about figuratively and literally making the individual the center surrounded by the community in need. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. See, that’s why that’s? Why we have you on? Because i looked at the same picture was an idea that did not occur to me. But that’s the brilliance of of aa expert. You know, lots of flecks of expert well, in this case, we have one expert and me, but other other people contributing exper, having experts contribute that’s what i mean, okay, you think about this, you know, it’s value of having multiple multiple opinions and and eyes on something very it was very well said, thank you for that. Altum i was thinking you by where i wasn’t thanking me for what i just said, that that was, obviously, you’re welcome. I always had a defective. I wouldn’t. I would probably not considered an expert perspective, but it is an opinionated one. You bring a lot of insight and used him to the show. Sabat yeah, you know, another part of the problem is that these images, their descriptions, you know, that it’s one dimensional, you know, right? If i’m here or if you swoop in with your donation from the united states that’s going to solve the problem, the child will no longer have empty hands reaching out, you know? And we just have a minute, but weaken, obviously we can keep talking beyond the break. Poverty is multidemensional mean, it includes govern the local community. The local community needs to be empowered, it includes well, and i think thinking about those layers, and we can talk more about this. Those layers of change that need to happen are are important. But also, as we continue to see, the kind of donor base of america change as boomer’s got older and millennials, you know, come into more of the majority in the world of social action that there is also your community. Your audience for this kind of message also knows there are multiple layers and maybe that immediate kind of got reaction of oh, my gosh, this crisis just happened, i want to respond, is there. But if you also, if that’s the hole that you do, you may not be really seen as a sustainable organization undressing all of those layers of change and i think that’s a huge opportunity. No, you’re seeing yourself. Yes, tio. One dimensionally. All right, let’s, take this break. Tell us i have a new tell. Oh, simoni yl for you, quote tell us has allowed my business to support my favorite charity without even feeling the pinch of writing a check. I am donating money every month that i would have spent on credit card processing anyway. Also, their customer service is far better than we’ve ever had. End quote, the businesses you refer are going to love tell us one hundred percent satisfaction among the businesses that you’re among among the business is working with them. Get started with the video at tony dahna em, eh slash tony tello’s. Now, let’s, go back to poverty porn with very insightful example. Ward um, yes, and we were just saying, yeah, it it narrows that the viewers focus to just donate and there’s a lot more that you can do. I mean, and, you know, if we’re talking about bonem poverty and hunger, i mean that that could reach to, you know, advocacy around global climate change policies, which you’re never going to get from these one dimensional ideas. No, and this i mean, i also don’t want to that folks listening now to our conversation up for this idea that every single tweet, every single picture, every single email appeal needs to talk people through. How do you know this action today is connected to this action in this all the way up that’s not what we’re trying to recommend that every single one of those has to include all of that context, but it should always include the context of what really you’re asking for if you are asking for donations for a really immediate need, the donation is still not the actual transaction of those medical supplies. Most likely right? So so at least framing it truly in what it is people are donating. Teo, was there an earthquake? And you’re well, these donations are in part to buy medical equipment and to support those medical teams administering it. Well, that’s also really great story. Who are these medical team? What kind of expertise are they bringing? You know, you don’t just have to focus on transactions because when you do, you make both the donor feel like they’re participating and transaction and the people receiving this support hyre the end of a transaction, i don’t think anyone really means for that i like, you know, back to that good intent, a key intent is not impact, but also even even in this case, i don’t think that’s really what you intend, you know it, so so raise that up and don’t focus on, oh, this is just like your example, before i really like that, you know, now these hands are full does not what happens in here, you know, and so really talkto what is happening and at a a tactical level, you know, there’s, this is opportunity for terrific content. No, you can direct people to interview, and i was talking about fresh content and depth of content there you can tell the story elsewhere, so the tweet is brief. The tweet is briefed, the facebook post, the ad, whatever is brief, but then there’s a link to you know, the back story back-up more to medical in this example who these medical teams are, you haven’t instagram account well, you could do you know instagram stories with either you know, actual quick video interviews update, facebook live there like there’s a ton of rich content you could have when you move to trying to really own what you do and what your story is. Instead of trying to focus on this idea of really, really immediate really, really fast transaction because that’s not the humanity that you want to be representing anyway. Yeah on and and wrapped wrapped up in all this eyes, you know, the idea of that, the important idea that the donations air not sufficient while while they’re necessary and we do need them, they’re not going to solve the problem alone exactly. The bigger context, you know that, and i love your idea, the hero you’re not talked about this a little oaky going well, just you, khun, you can actually then shift the spotlight to some of the work that you’re doing. Like you’re saying, you know, show videos of some of the programs and some of the care that you’re actually giving, you know you can you can shift the lens back to you as the provider, you know, when it’s all in the bigger context, it’s a part of the bigger falik well, i think there’s two things to think about here one is that we talked about before any campaign, whether it’s a fundraising campaign, our advocacy or whatever it’s never gonna have only one ass, of course, every you know, kind of sector best practices. You only have one ascot a time. But once someone takes that action, they have made the donations. They have called their senator. Whatever you need to be ready with another ask because they were just willing to do what you ask them to do. You might as well tell them that to do something else right. So instead of having, you know, here’s eight different things, please do what you want. You give people want and when they do it, you take them to the next step. Then you take them to the next step and you just keep going. And well, from a tactical perspective definitely think about it that way. And from a content perspective, justus you’re recommending i love that get people hooked in and then have them kind of watch the whole thing. Play out right. Continue to see how the work is happening on the other thing to think about, i think, is that there’s a lot to be sad out in the sector right now about how you know there are certain changes in fund-raising that people are more connected to topic than necessarily a single organization that that they’re going to donate to over a year over year, you know that they care more about the topic and whoever is maybe doing something good on that topic is who gets their money. This is a great way to keep people actually hooked to your organisation instead of floating between organizations in the same cause because you’re not just getting them to have a single transaction with you because it was immediate and compelling and kind of hyre fast way for them to feel connected, you have then continuing to connect them to you with these with content, of course, but also with those continued actions, ways where they’re getting deeper and deeper into this and feeling like, yeah, i donated but also high, you know, submitted short message for the medical l came to provide to those children and, you know, they’re starting to actually feel like they are a part of your work, which is the whole goal of this instead of feeling like, oh, i feel relieved that i sent my ten dollars, for that organization, and i don’t even know who they were because it was just the organization i saw on facebook, right? So really shifting how you frame all of this is, of course, as we’re talking about today, you know, getting you out of this trap of poverty porn, but it’s also serving you to build rial community with these supporters? Yeah, it’s the how many guests we’ve had on urging the relation a ll over the transactional that’s you you put a lot of depth into it, but you and i have talked about it and other guests as well. That’s the way to stand out, you know, as you said, that’s, the way to bring people to your cause and keep them there while the ah a lot of a lot of activists and donors are you’re saying maur, mission oriented versus organization oriented. But you know, if you can draw them into your work, they’re right they will stay with you. It’s the relation act it’s the relationship of course. All right, you know, another another facet of this is that all you know, these regions are not monolithic. You know, all of central america, south america and africa are not poor on dh and needy and destitute, you know, there are thriving cities, there’s, beautiful, rich history, culture toe all of these, you know, to all the african nations and all these other parts i’m talking parts of the world i’m talking about. So, you know, e i think you want some balance there too, tuley and i think there’s argument to be made that there are can definitions that we had organizations we as americans, we as white folks can put onto what is ah, community experiencing property or what is a geographic area, that it lacks access to resources that are not going to be a shared definition by the people living in those communities. And i think that really important thing to remember as organizations trying to highlight the service you’re providing or the way that you’re serving that community, is that your definition of of their needs and comparatively to you you know how how quote unquote in poverty they are is going to feel different in their own lived experience, so finding ways where they can authentically talk about again, back to what was said at the beginning, you know, their hopes and dreams, their challenges, their life and the way that they benefit or appreciate the services is going to feel far truer and position your organization into their community than it is for you to say from the outside, you know, look at this community, we’ve kind of defined as needing this and here’s how we’re going to fix, you know, back to that idea that are you centering you and and the organization are you really centering this community? How how are you doing that? Recognizing that part of deciding you know that a certain community is or is not in need is part of that? We’re gonna leave it there. Any simple word? Excellent. Thank you so much for talking about the tony. I know it’s a a scary topic for some, but i think it was a good conversation. I absolutely agree, and we’re not scared to be a little provocative. No, not at all. Thank you. She’s. Amy sample ward at amy, sample ward, dot or ge? And at amy, r s ward, next week, two more from the non-profit technology conference. See sweet cross talk and capacity call out if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profit ofthis, data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner, cps, guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com and by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us. Ah, creative producers claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking, alternate network, waiting to get you thinking. E-giving cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down? Hi, i’m nor in sometime, potentially, ater tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p m eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential. Live life your way on talk radio dot n y c geever. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Are you into comics, movies and pop culture at large? What about music and tv? Then you’re in for a treat. 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