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[00:01:51.84] spk_0:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer with infra occlusion if I had to bite down on the idea that you missed this week’s show, sustainable fundraising. Larry johnson is author of the book The Eight Principles of sustainable fundraising. He walks us through several of them, including donors, are the drivers, leadership leads and divide and grow. I’m Tony’s take to make it about your mission. We’re sponsored by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant or d just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper here is sustainable fundraising. It’s a pleasure to welcome Larry johnson to non profit radio He is founder of the Eight Principles and author of the award winning book the eight principles of sustainable fundraising. He’s an internationally recognized coach trainer and thought leader in fund development and philanthropy. The principles are at the eight principles dot com and larry is on linkedin. Larry johnson, Welcome to the show.

[00:01:54.56] spk_1:
Well Tony, it’s indeed a pleasure. I’m looking forward to this.

[00:02:14.05] spk_0:
Thank you very much. I am as well. It’s a pleasure to have you, Let’s talk about the eight principles. What were you thinking when you uh rarefied fundraising into into eight Cognizable bites for folks.

[00:03:22.38] spk_1:
Well um you know, I’ve been in this business what 30 plus years now, yikes anyway. One thing I’ve noticed throughout my career is that people tend to focus on the process or the tools and not really the underlying principles or unchanging sort of laws that are operating in the background. And, but if you look at organizations that are truly transformative in the way they raise money and the way they engage their donors in the way they continue to grow every year. Even if they don’t, they ever heard of the eight principles, you could take and look at their organization and see them observing all eight of them. And so when I went to write the book, the idea was to create a book that was sophisticated, yet simple and that could be applied both at the technical levels and at the board level that here, this is what’s going on. And if you understand it, then you’ll be able to assemble a program that makes sense for your organization because not every organization is the same. The constituencies aren’t the same. And so it’s really, it’s foolish to try to make everything work everywhere because it won’t. Uh, and that’s one of the reasons why so many organizations are pushing uphill.

[00:03:32.41] spk_0:
So, you see these as a, as a foundation for all sustainable fundraising.

[00:03:33.99] spk_1:
Yeah. And the reason why is they’re all based on human nature. Um, and, uh, I mean, we’re actually gonna be going into into, into ASIA, into India later this year and they’re just as applicable there as they are here because they’re based on human nature.

[00:04:24.33] spk_0:
Okay, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna hit three of them that I feel are areas that we haven’t had many guests or any guests talk about. And then, you know, if, if there’s still time we’ll go back and hit a couple. But uh, you know, for listeners, I want, I want it to be stuff that we haven’t talked about very much with with other guests. So your number one of the eight principles of sustainable fundraising is donors are the drivers. What’s going on here?

[00:05:33.58] spk_1:
Well, um, donors A. K. A. Investors. I like the word investors. Um, they are driving the philanthropic enterprise without them. There is no philanthropy. There is no fundraising. But the irony here is they’re not driving it with their money. There’s the key, um, people are obsessed about the money. Well, yes, money is involved, but it’s not really the focus. And especially at the focus of, of donors, investors. They’re looking for something different. But then it’s also not really, their focus is really not the mission of the organization either. Um, it is, again, tangential, what donors are looking for is the fulfillment of their own dreams and aspirations. That’s what they’re really looking for and the organization that can provide that they’re the ones that will elicit the transformative and ongoing support of these people. Um, and so they are indeed driving the enterprise. And there’s a lot of, a lot of my friends out there in the wealth management world, tell me that for lack of engagement by nonprofits, there’s probably at least a billion dollars sitting out there un engaged. And, uh, and that, that doesn’t mean it’s tied up in a donor advised fund or any sort of instrument there. It’s just sitting out there because it’s never been engaged.

[00:05:48.98] spk_0:
I mean, there could be more than that. That that’s a very speculative,

[00:05:51.90] spk_1:
right? It is, it is

[00:05:56.19] spk_0:
Estimate, I mean, it could be $10 billion. I mean, I know nonprofits could be more engaging with donors. So I’m not, I’m not quibbling that it’s not a billion. It could be 10 times that,

[00:06:03.96] spk_1:
yes, it could be absolutely, absolutely. But the keys, they’re driving the enterprise, but they’re not driving it with their money,

[00:06:19.09] spk_0:
right? You’re saying their aspirations and their dreams say more about how you see nonprofits fulfilling donor aspirations and dreams.

[00:06:46.11] spk_1:
Well, tony if I were approaching you as a, as an executive of a nonprofit or a fundraiser, a board member or anybody else and you were a potential investor. Um, I would first try to figure out what it is that you that really gave you fulfillment what it is you’re really looking for. And we’re talking about very serious transcendent fulfillment, not immediate short term and, you know, especially with today’s technological tools that are available, you know, in the old days, you just ask people and that still works. Um, but you can figure out pretty quickly, you know, what is it that’s driving these people, what is it they’re not missing because what you’re giving them is something they cannot buy. You see, they can’t buy that. Um, and let me tell you a little story

[00:07:21.93] spk_0:
before your story, hold, we’ll get we’ll do your story. I love stories, not putting the kibosh on the story, but hold off what they can’t buy. They can’t buy the fulfillment that nonprofits can provide, that

[00:09:26.91] spk_1:
they can’t buy that. So, if the if the nonprofit is going to offer this to them, you know, and then they will more than gladly give them an exchange. You see, let me let me let me illustrate this. There is a there is a for profit market vertical that understands this intrinsically and in fact, their entire um market proposition. Their whole sales proposition is if you use their product, you will become personally fulfilled sex appeal, you know, self worth all in one package. And most of us use those products and I, and I usually say, so what is it to a group? And maybe one person will get it right, It’s the cosmetics industry, Alright, that’s exactly their sales proposition you use our product, you’re going to be beautiful, self fulfilled sex appeal, the whole thing. So, and the story is okay to illustrate that I went into a department store, it’s been four or five years ago now and I went into the cup of the men’s cologne fragrance counter, whatever you wanna call it. And there was a young clerk there, young man and I walked up and I knew what I wanted, you know, and he says, um, can I help you sir? Well, if you know me, you know that I love to ask questions just to see what kind of response I’m gonna get. And right in front of me on the counter was this, you know, men’s health? One of these men’s magazines opened to a full page cosmetics at full page. And the ad was very simple. It was a um it was a photograph, full page photograph. And it was this this uh this gigolo with this, with this blonde in a white bikini on a yacht, in the Aegean. And then the, an image of the product was superimposed onto the photograph very prominently. And it’s, you’ve probably even seen it. It’s a very well known brand. So I said to the young man, I said, well, so tell me pointing to the ad, if I buy this, do I get hurt? Well, he looked at me like he didn’t, he was just he was he couldn’t quite

[00:09:31.60] spk_0:
was a man,

[00:09:33.80] spk_1:
it was a gigolo with the, with the blonde.

[00:09:36.78] spk_0:
Oh,

[00:09:38.32] spk_1:
okay, so you know, the the idea is you’re you’re transmuting yourself there on the yacht with this blonde, that’s the whole thing. Okay,

[00:09:46.19] spk_0:
Yeah. The guy at the Clark county has to offer you?

[00:10:19.58] spk_1:
Well, first of all, he couldn’t quite process what I just said because it was so damn obvious. That’s why. And then, so then I said so, but that’s the implication, isn’t it? And he said, yes, it is. That’s what I’m telling you. And you see, and you see, so they’re making billions of dollars selling a counterfeit. And what I tell nonprofits is you have the real thing because people want to be involved in something that’s bigger than themselves. They want to feel they’re part of something bigger than themselves. And if you can provide that they will be with you over and over and over again. You try to browbeat them with with moral ISMs or statistics or other things. You know, people just kind of tune you out. They may give you a hush and go away gift. Like here, take some money, go away. But you’re not gonna get the kind of transformational engagement that you can, if you really understand that you want to tap into that person’s desire to do something bigger than what they can do.

[00:11:11.01] spk_0:
Let’s see what are some ways that, that we can, we can do this. How can we, I guess I guess I’m asking you in our, in our marketing, which may just be conversations, I don’t, I don’t mean necessarily in our print marketing or digital. But in our conversations even, you know, how can we rise to this principle of fulfilling dreams and aspirations for donors?

[00:12:17.47] spk_1:
Well, the first thing is you have to figure out what the dreams are. You have to know what they are. And that takes some time. Um, it takes some effort. It’s not impossible. And you know, I worked for one of the major consulting firms for over seven years and I did a lot of campaign feasibility studies a lot, uh, could do them in my sleep. And one thing I discovered about those is even though they consisted of anywhere from 40 to 50 individual interviews, um, if the initial interviews were chosen correctly, if we could get the right balance in the first half dozen or even maybe nine, um, I knew how it was gonna turn out in the end. I can tell you this is what’s gonna happen at the end and that comes from doing it from the experience. So, but the client of course one of the 50 interviews and that’s what the client got. All right. But I could because I remember getting a call from my boss once after the after the first three or four days. How’s it going larry? I said, well, it’s going to be X, Y. Z. Okay, fine. And I spent the balance of the time during the interview. So a lot of it is, you know, I’m an old school guy. Be

[00:12:27.18] spk_0:
careful there. I hope you didn’t, I hope hope after those first eight or nine interviews you didn’t engage in confirmation bias and then you just you just attempted. You and your all your subsequent interviews. You, you skewed your conversations to confirm what you had already told or you already fixed in your mind even was gonna happen. You didn’t let that happen. Did you know, confirmation bias?

[00:12:43.26] spk_1:
No, I’m an engineer by training.

[00:12:47.04] spk_0:
Okay. You’re

[00:12:48.01] spk_1:
looking at the data at the end.

[00:12:49.76] spk_0:
All right.

[00:13:40.22] spk_1:
You’re you’re looking at, okay, this, this is all the answers to the questions how they all stack up, but you can get a pretty good idea of how it’s going. If you’re listening carefully, you begin to see patterns emerge. And there are there is the odd ball one that you, at the end, you get a few interviews that that throw everything out of whack that happens. But typically you don’t have my point in saying that is you don’t have to, you don’t have to go out and interview 300 people. You really don’t have to do that. Um, you know, you interview a good segment of your population and the key is to be listening uh, and ask open ended questions. And if you guarantee them anonymity and confidentiality, they’ll tell you anything, you want to know, people really want to do that. So that’s that’s an old school guy. And so that’s what I would do uh to get some ideas as to what are the messages And there aren’t, they don’t have to be that many, maybe three or

[00:13:42.97] spk_0:
four that

[00:13:59.89] spk_1:
resonate with the people who support us because I know we’re not talking about principle for, but principle four is learning plan learn who would naturally support you because not everybody will okay, learn who that is, who big picture and, and then then make plans on how to reach out to those people because they’ll be reachable different ways. So you go back to donors. Other drivers, figure out what those touch points are, you know what and there and they’ll be there and they may be a little bit different than what your mission is, but it doesn’t mean it’s, uh, it’s contradictory, it’s just, it’s just a collaborative or a line.

[00:14:36.07] spk_0:
Okay, let’s move to, uh, principle number three. Of the eight principles of sustainable fundraising leadership leads, leading by example, Talk about this one. Why is this so critical? What are, what are leaders not doing that? They ought to be doing?

[00:14:42.99] spk_1:
Well, let me go back and say one thing about, is the drivers that I’m going to go into this.

[00:14:47.90] spk_0:
Alright, alright.

[00:15:30.90] spk_1:
There are levels of donors are the drivers, remember if donors are driving the car, they’re in the driver’s seat, they got their hands on the steering wheel. Um, if that donor is a really good match for you and you’ve done your work, you’re gonna be in the passenger seat, you’re gonna be in the navigator seat up front. Uh, if there’s sort of a match, you’ll be in the back seat, you’ll still be there, but you’re not gonna get the kind of attention that the, that the navigator would get or if you’re barely hanging on, you’re gonna be in the trunk, okay? And so you get whatever’s left over, you open the trunk after two hours and you’re still breathing okay, fine. That’s their levels of that. Not every donor is going to be that 100% sweet spot. Uh, and I’m not suggesting that you limit yourself to that. But if you’re focused on that, you’re gonna pick up everyone that would remotely be in that, that, that universe.

[00:17:12.88] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, like so many other things in life. Getting in the media depends on relationships. You’ve got to be known by folks who work in the media to be heard by folks who work in the media to get their attention. It’s so much easier when you know somebody, it’s so much easier when you want to be heard when you have an existing relationship before you’re out for the ask, right? You draw the fundraising analogy first meeting. Do you ask somebody for a gift, highly unlikely you build up a relationship, you get to that point. Media is the same way. You have much, much better odds if you have an existing relationship when you make your ask based on the news hook or something happening at your organization that, that is no, is newsworthy? Whatever it is, it’s the existing relationship turn to knows how to set those up for you, how to build them and grow them. So you get heard at the time you make the ask turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. Now back to sustainable fundraising.

[00:17:17.97] spk_1:
Leadership. Leadership

[00:17:19.68] spk_0:
leads. Yes. What, what, what, what can we be doing better here?

[00:18:57.77] spk_1:
Well, let’s look at what that means. Leading by example, you look at any organization, whether it’s a commercial enterprise, whether it’s a civic association, whether it’s a political party, whether it’s a nonprofit social, whatever it is. Um, leaders are expected to assume certain responsibilities. I mean, they’re obviously the fiduciary ones, uh, and the other issues that are related to that, but it’s, they set the pace for the example. What’s the quality of the leadership by these people morally upstanding? Do they represent the essence of the organization? Um, you know, are they representative of those who are investors to the organization? That’s a big key. Uh, and I’ll give you an example about that. Um, I was working with a social service organization that covered about 45 counties and they were concerned, they weren’t getting any support out of this one county. And I said, well, who on your boards from that county. Well, no one I said, well, there’s your problem right there. You’re not tapped into the networks there. So they corrected that. Um, but then the other key is they only have in a nonprofit setting leaders, I. E. The governing board and certainly their their employee, the executive. And I think that needs to be stressed is that the executive is an employee of the board. Sometimes you get these weird sort of relationships and how they relate to one another. Um, but the key there is that they only have three things they should be focused on. Number one setting policy for the organization, number two advocating for it. Hey, if they’re not, if they’re not a fan, why are they on the board? And three, they should be there charged with making sure they’re sufficient resources with the delivery of the mission and in a non profit that almost always includes some philanthropy or some fundraising. I mean, there are other sources of revenue,

[00:19:17.15] spk_0:
but fundraising

[00:20:57.82] spk_1:
is a part of it. So wherever the leaders lead you, that’s where your people on the outside are gonna take their cues. So if for instance, I’m a big believer and I make no bones about this. Is that every board member and I’ve been a nonprofit board member needs to be financially committed. And now, what does that mean? Well, some people use it to say there’s a board minimum or we have this or that or whatever. You know, I really don’t, I don’t really like those because I prefer something I call equal sacrifice, not equal amount because everyone around that table is gonna, their pockets are gonna have different depths to them. And you know, for someone, $1000 could be quite a sacrifice. And for someone else, hey, they’ll spend that at Sun Valley down the road for me and one weekend easy. So it just depends on who you are and and where you come from. And because I’m a big believer in that board should be representative of the constituencies they they support or that they reach out to. So, so but they all have to be and that includes person that should be personal funds, not corporate funds. I think, you know, people use people, you know, people who are corporate appointees. Um they not, they may not be useless, but they tend to be very weak board members because they’re told by their boss to go and be a part of that. They want to have a representation. Um, it’s not really that effective. Neither is the board member who’s on 12 other boards and you’re getting them simply because they have a recognizable name names don’t bring in support. They really don’t. But but leadership leader, they will lead you irregardless of whether they’re leading you in the right place at the wrong place. They will lead others, they will get that message, but here’s another piece of it is people before

[00:21:07.03] spk_0:
you move onto the next piece. The equal sacrifice. I like that. Uh equal sacrifice instead of equal amount. Sounds sounds like the stretch gift. You know, everyone should be stretching to to what is a stretch for them.

[00:21:20.64] spk_1:
Yeah, it should be uh,

[00:21:24.66] spk_0:
I think

[00:22:36.94] spk_1:
stretch but doable and then the way you achieve that and what I, what I counsel clients to do is something called peer solicitation and that’s not what it’s known in the current and the current. That’s not the current version of that. Pierre solicitation is where boards, there’s a small group of the boards that that takes and evaluates people in terms of their bill And then people are asked face to face for a specific amount for their annual gift at the beginning of the fiscal year. Uh they can pay it in cash, they can make a pledge, they can make payments whatever they want to do, but it’s got to be satisfied by the end of the fiscal year. And then you take all those, all those, all those evaluation amounts, you add them up, take about 20 or 30% discount on that total. And that’s your, that’s your group goal because you want the board to feel as though they’ve accomplished something. I don’t like goals that are so high that it’s almost impossible to reach goals should be floors, not ceilings because the idea is to create that momentum. And if you do it up front and you can say, hey, you know, our, our goal for our board this year was $65,000 and we raised 72 5. Great, Wonderful. That’s terrific. Think about how that plays in the public square. Think about what that says to the people who are on that board and and all their friends and people they know, wow, Hey, you know, they must really believe in that, that that organization is going places. Let me let me learn more about it.

[00:22:48.96] spk_0:
And alright, well, and you achieve that by taking the, the what you expect the aggregate to be for the year and you’re discounting it.

[00:23:04.21] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. But, but it’s reasonable. It’s something that’s based on what, you know, the individual. All

[00:23:04.48] spk_0:
right, what else about leadership leading?

[00:25:02.28] spk_1:
Well, another thing is, you know, I said, fundraising is a big part of it and people, they always start groaning well, you know, um, You know, I’m not good at asking for money. That’s just not for me, I don’t feel awkward, I feel awkward. Well, what I tell people is board involvement in fundraising only about 5% of its actually asking. Alright, that’s the very minor part of it, a big, big part of it is the board to be able to number one properly resource a fundraising program knowing it costs money to raise money. And then also when they, when the reports are made and when the analysis is done for the board to be sophisticated enough to ask the right questions of the fundraiser and the executive, you know, you know, one of the, you know, the number that usually, or often let’s put it that way comes up, you know, at a board meeting is, well, what did you raise in the last quarter or six months or whatever it was? That is a totally meaningless number from a fundraising perspective, that’s an accounting number. That’s a cash number. That’s the result of your fundraising. That doesn’t predict anything. Even the brokers say past performance is not an indicator of future performance. They get that in real fast. So, but there are other variables that are identifiable in a program that will, if the board is aware of these and presented and educated, they’ll be able to evaluate, they’ll be able to see, okay, you know, our retention rates really low. We need to work on that our average giving rate is stagnant. You know, we’re here here here and you see board members are not stupid people, You know, they can assess this, but they’re not given this opportunity. I think there was a study, Oh, it’s been several years ago now where I, I shocked that 75% of the board members they surveyed wanted some sort of formal understanding of fundraising or training and only about 20% were ever offered anything like that. And that’s, and so these are these people are volunteers Tony this isn’t their full time job. So it’s not their stick to go in and kind of relationship is really, really aggressive to go and figure it out on your own.

[00:26:28.74] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. They have the free offer. It’s still going exclusively for nonprofit radio listeners. You know, you’ll get the complimentary 24 7 monitoring of your I. T. Assets and they’ll do it for three months, 90 days monitoring your servers, network, cloud performance, your backup performance All 24, 7 of course, if there are any issues during the period, they’re going to let you know immediately and then at the end of the three months you’re gonna get their report, telling you how you’re doing. It’s all complimentary. It’s on the listener landing page. It’s at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go on to mention deeper, Let’s return to sustainable fundraising. Let’s talk some more about what board members can do around fundraising besides soliciting. And I understand re sourcing you said re sourcing the development function, properly asking the right questions, focusing on the meaningful metrics, not the vanity metrics. Uh, let’s talk something about individual board member activity aside from soliciting. So, you know, making introductions, hosting small events, things like, you know what your ideas around those that individual board members can do around fundraising.

[00:28:03.88] spk_1:
Well what I tell you what I tell organizations when they’re looking to evaluate their board or improve it or whatever I say, you know, the, you know, boards are, excuse me. Boards should be organic groups, meaning they’re responsible to each other, they’re not responsible certainly to their employee. The executive and the boards that do best are the ones that are, are organic. And the way you get that is that first of all, the idea of equal giving excuses of equal participation and that kind of commitment. But another way you do that is to things you make sure that you have a variety of skills on your board. You don’t need six accountants and nine attorneys. You know, you need to spread that around a little bit and then the other pieces, if you look at the constituencies from which you expect to raise money and however you want to identify those, you should have at least one board member that represents those constituents. Each of those constituencies because they’re the person that has the network that you’re looking to to, to to build and then that that individual’s job, one of their jobs is advocacy, is making sure that their network knows who you are as an organization and the great work you’re doing, that. You’re willing to introduce your friends and relatives to this organization, you know, and if a board member isn’t willing to do that, I question their commitment. Why are you on the sport? I mean, if you don’t really feel good enough to tell your friends and relatives and business partners that this is a good thing, why you know what you’re doing that.

[00:29:47.58] spk_0:
I was on a board years ago by the way. Larry. If you need to take a sip of water, please go ahead. I’ll, uh, I’ll make my question. Uh, uh, Loquacious to give you a chance to take a, take a drink and a breath. Um, I was on a board many years ago. Uh, and one of the board members was, was kind of embarrassed to ask for money. He didn’t, he didn’t feel that the organization really merited the support of his friends he was giving personally, But I think that’s because we all have an obligation. But he, he was, he was kind of embarrassed actually. He felt that, yeah, that the organization just was not, wouldn’t be meaningful to his, his colleagues in his, this happened to be an attorney in his, in his law firm wouldn’t be meaningful to them. They wouldn’t be interested without, without ever having talked to him about it. Very, you know, very unfortunate. Um, yeah, it’s just a terrible, unfortunate, sad mindset. You know, why are you on the board? If you don’t think your friends, even your colleagues forget friends, Your professional colleagues are going to have any interest that you serve on the board. I mean, that’s your biggest hook or at least that’s your first hook. Maybe it’s not your biggest hook. That’s your first hook. I spend time with this organization. I go to their performances. I go to the meetings. I’m on the, I’m on a couple of committees. You know, that’s your, that’s your entree and then what good that the, that the community that the organization does, the education program in the elementary schools, the performances, etcetera. But he just had the vastly wrong and very unfortunate mindset.

[00:30:12.95] spk_1:
Well, you see that mindset goes beyond board members and what’s happening there is the person is not comfortable. And so they’ve feel authorized to take the agency away from the other person. They’re making the decision for

[00:30:18.50] spk_0:
them. That’s

[00:30:19.63] spk_1:
what they’re doing. And, and I, it’s like when, you know, you’re doing an awareness meeting or an event

[00:30:24.78] spk_0:
well, and they’re also, they’re also just making everything easier on themselves.

[00:30:28.84] spk_1:
Of course they,

[00:30:29.81] spk_0:
well, my, my, my, my fellow, uh, partners aren’t gonna be interested. So I’m not going to approach them.

[00:31:23.95] spk_1:
So, but it’s the whole idea of awkwardness and you, but they don’t realize they’re taking agency away from these people. They’re not giving them the opportunity to make the decision on. That’s really what they’re doing. Now. There is the flip of this. I’ll tell you a story. Um, I was working with a client up and catch them, which is Sun Valley. I live out in Idaho and Sun Valley is a very wealthy community. It’s not very big, but there’s a lot of, a lot of money there And we were doing an annual fund where this one individual had made a cash gift to $250,000. And so he was assigned to do another to go and solicit one of his board members and this man’s name. Others call him John offered the guy that the other board member will, will you take 50? And where upon the board members said, Bill, don’t embarrass yourself with that. I want the 2 50 that I put put in. I mean, there’s, I mean, I wouldn’t necessarily advise that, but he obviously knew the man well,

[00:31:42.07] spk_0:
right. Talking about peer to peer. Yeah, if you can, if you can get friends, I was gonna say putting pressure on, let’s just say soliciting, uh, if you can get friends like that soliciting each other, Nobody’s gonna walk away disappointed.

[00:31:52.60] spk_1:
No, No. I just love what he said was, don’t embarrass? You

[00:31:58.61] spk_0:
Don’t embarrass yourself 50,000. Yeah, Yeah. That’s, that’s a, that’s a great lesson in peer to peer board board soliciting keep the keep the professionals away and let’s just get the 22 good friends having lunch together. One of them has an agenda to talk to the other about his or her board. Giving all right,

[00:32:17.59] spk_1:
Anything

[00:32:18.22] spk_0:
else you want? I I got admonished on because donors of the drivers, I left that too early. So anything else you want to share on leadership leads before, before we move ahead.

[00:32:33.32] spk_1:
Um, I don’t think so. I just say that, oh, when you in, when you insist, when, when you insist on equal sacrifice, here’s what happens. You get a group of people, of individuals that become accountable to each other.

[00:32:46.92] spk_0:
There’s

[00:32:57.13] spk_1:
the key and they begin to function as a group, not as a collection of individuals. And that’s where the trail, that’s where two plus two equals five, you see is because that synergy of a group functioning as a group, not as a group of it, not as a collection of individuals. And that doesn’t happen very often. But when it does, it really really energizes an organization. You see it make great strides very quickly,

[00:33:20.21] spk_0:
shared sacrifice. If we’re all sacrificing equally. And I don’t mean dollar wise, I mean, I mean, capacity wise, we’re all sacrificing for the good of this organization. Yeah. That’s going to create a cohesion.

[00:33:27.51] spk_1:
That’s what you that’s what you’re looking for. Is that kind of, you know, we’re all in this together. Um and we’re gonna make it we’re gonna make it successful

[00:33:36.03] spk_0:
partnership in sacrifice.

[00:33:38.32] spk_1:
That’s right. That’s exactly what it is. And as I said, it becomes an organic group. It’s not it’s no longer just a collection of individuals.

[00:33:55.30] spk_0:
Good enough. Okay, Let’s talk about principle number six, divide and grow. What’s this? What’s this about?

[00:35:20.41] spk_1:
Well, a divide and grow. Um The shorthand version of that is treat different donors differently. Alright. So that um what you’re essentially doing here is you realize that your donors are not all the same, they’re not all the same age that they don’t have the same situation in life or as the Germans would say, where they are in their lifespan, um, their interests, all of the, they’re all different to some degree. They come from different backgrounds, different places. So that the organization that can allow for these, and that creates a pathway for donors to come closer to you emotionally over time and see, I’m a big believer in really focusing on high retention rates, not cache entry rates. Those organizations are the ones who achieve this transformative giving over time. Uh, and that’s so that when you divide your constituency into these air into these levels of, you know, you know, ages and, and where they are in life and income level and all these kinds of things that, that define, you know, what the person is going to be like when they come to you and you treat them that way. And, and you, you can, of course with today’s technology, even the very smallest organization can do this kind of thing. Uh, it doesn’t, you know, in the old days, you know, three or three or five cards and an army of researchers and, and people making phone calls and you can still do that. But the point is, you don’t have to, but you know, I’ve known this for a long time. But then there was research published about five years ago, I think it was Russell James, I’m sure, you know, russell

[00:35:33.09] spk_0:
Russell Professor Russell James texas Tech University.

[00:36:46.40] spk_1:
Yeah, So and what they discovered was when donors are given a pathway that brings them closer emotionally. And I stress that word, the emotional connection with the organization over time To the point where they make a gift out of an asset, not income. And it doesn’t have to be a large one can be maybe a couple $1000. I mean really it doesn’t have to be huge when that happens. And you can get a core group of people, maybe only 10 or 15% of your donor base that has done that the entire fundraising program in terms of income, just skyrockets. And the reason why is you have a core group of people that are so emotionally committed to you. They come hell or high water they’re gonna, they’re gonna be there for you no matter what happens, you see, and that’s what you’re looking for. Is that core group of people that are so emotionally committed to you and they may not be your top givers financially, but they will drive everything else. That’s the key. Um, and that’s why although I’ve done most of my work in capital fundraising and major gift fundraising in all the conventional terms, I I even sort of steer away from the term major giving anymore because that’s an internal term. It’s reflected on ability. Um, and I really, really focus on emotional commitment because I think the rest will come. And of course in your area, the deferred giving area, that’s those are asset gifts, you know, usually by definition.

[00:37:01.29] spk_0:
Yeah, right. You were talking about giving from assets, but

[00:37:16.11] spk_1:
I mean, I had a fun gift be satisfied by the liquidation of a small, a small money market. 10 grand. Okay. I mean, yeah,

[00:37:51.83] spk_0:
sure. That can happen. Um, yeah, the ultimate, you know, the for a lot of folks that their ultimate gift has to come in their estate plan because either they can’t or they believe that they can’t make their ultimate gift while they’re still living. So they put it in their estate plan and there there’s there’s a plan to get in a nutshell. Alright, So, yeah, so, all right. So you want us to, you know, dividing and growing, you want these, you talk about mutual, mutually beneficial relationships.

[00:39:22.17] spk_1:
Yes, these are, these are not one way relationship. These are mutually beneficial relationships. Um, you know, you know, I have something called the, if you read my book or my other stuff, I have something called a donor pipeline pipeline signs kind of commercial and kind of cold, but what it really is, it shows how donors come to you and they come to you through three or four different sources and then over time, how you get to know them and move them closer to you and then you can attach certain kinds of fundraising methods and relationships and things that they do over time and then a capital campaign, which is a very specific, relatively short term way to raise a lot of money for a specific so set of, of things or ideas then what that, how that serves in all this is to kind of goose what I’ll call goose the whole system because it raises everybody’s awareness of what’s going on. And then, you know, for those who understand that the real or that I would think the more significant payoff Quote of of a capital campaign is not the money raised in the immediate, uh, for the immediate, in case it’s how you’ve positioned your, your donor base to continue to give at higher levels over what, 10 or 15 years. And universities, they figured this out 30, 40 years ago when they invented what they called the continual campaign, the continuous campaign. And so, you know, before that, you know, you and I probably have to remember that these universities would hire, you know, couple score of, you know, field officers and run the campaign then fire everybody. And five years later they do the whole thing all over again. That’s a very inefficient way of raising money. And so they realized, oh, we can do this differently. And so that’s, you know, but you can do it even as a small organization.

[00:39:45.82] spk_0:
Yeah. Keep those relationships going rather than trying to renew them every five or seven years on your on your campaign cycle. Yeah. That seems antiquated. Alright.

[00:40:00.38] spk_1:
Yes,

[00:41:36.64] spk_0:
it was, Yeah. My early days. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Make it about your mission. Your work. That’s what you have in common with your supporters. Whether we’re talking about volunteers, donors, other types of supporters, they love your work. You do the work. The mission is what you have in common. So you know, as we’re approaching rapidly, the all important fourth quarter, keep the mission in mind as you’re crafting messages, whatever digital print the mission is what moves your supporters. That’s what they love about you. That’s what they give their money, their time to make it about your mission. It’s special to them. Sort of keep it special in your mind. Don’t let it become routine and mundane and, and un interesting to you or you think what’s interesting to you is not going to be interesting to other folks. Not so not so they love your mission. Your mission is what you have in common with those who are loving you who are supporting you. Make it about the mission. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for sustainable fundraising with larry johnson instead of doing just three of the 8, 3/8. Let’s, let’s talk about four of them. We have, we have a little more time left and then we’ll just tease, you know, all eight of them. But I would like to talk and you’ve, you’ve talked around this one and you’ve alluded to it. Number seven renew and refresh. You know, keeping a high renewal rate, high retention rate. Let’s, let’s just flush that one out as, as our, as our fourth one renew and refresh.

[00:43:27.63] spk_1:
Well, it’s, it’s said, it’s said in that order on purpose, your first goal is to renew the investors you currently have, that’s your first priority. And your second priority is to refresh your base because people die. People change their interest. People go into a different stage of life. I mean will go into bankruptcies or they lose their all sorts of reasons why people will stop giving to you and many, most of them legitimate reasons. You know, you haven’t necessarily quote pissed them off or anything. So that, so that renewing should be your number one priority with your donor pool. Unfortunately it’s not for most people. I can’t believe, I can’t tell you the number of development officers I’ve heard tell me, well, I’d like to renew more, but my executive just wants to get more new donors into the fold. And that just seems to be the, I mean, I’m like, I don’t understand where that comes from quite frankly. I mean, but I mean who am I to say? But anyway, renewing first And the, and there’s, you know, and renewing donors is actually easier now than it was when I was just in this business. And yet it seems that there’s more turning going on than it was when I was first in this business, I think there are a couple of things that are driving that first of demographics we’re dealing with, we’re dealing with younger generations in the boomers whose patience and attention levels, attention spans are quite a bit shorter and their reasons for giving are different. They’re much more impact driven than those in our age range.

[00:43:33.34] spk_0:
This is interesting. Larry, let me, let me let me stop here. Do we know that retention rates, which are, which are quite low, uh, around 20,

[00:43:43.98] spk_1:
pathetic

[00:43:45.38] spk_0:
Part. Yeah. Our retention rates lower than they were 20 years ago.

[00:43:56.38] spk_1:
I think they are. I mean, I would have to check the numbers, but in terms of my experience, excuse me, there seems to be less churn, have

[00:43:59.62] spk_0:
a drink, have a drink while I uh, say that Larry’s having a little sip of water from his yellow yellow water bottle. Very pretty.

[00:44:47.75] spk_1:
Uh, there’s, there’s, there seems to be more turn that may simply because there’s more younger donors. I mean, people send, there’s sort of this false calculus out there that millennials aren’t philanthropic. Well, they are, they’re a very high percent of them give, but they give it a different way than baby boomers do like you and I, but yes, the renewal rate is pathetic. And what I, the, the, the analogy I use is that, you know, I think the, I think, I think it’s like the the first year renewal rates always hovered in the high thirties 30% somewhere in there, the ones I’ve seen. But if you look at the consumer products, Uh, renewal rates, they’re 95 and 96%. So what I say to people is people are more loyal to their toothpaste and they are their charity. This

[00:44:57.24] spk_0:
is a very good example actually.

[00:45:06.18] spk_1:
Mean P and G. Has that figured out tony They got it figured out. So why is it if they can figure it out for something as mundane as toothpaste. Alright. Uh, why is it that nonprofits can’t employ there again? They’re selling the real thing. They’re not selling a pony thing. It’s real. It’s hard. You know, why is it? They can’t get there. Well, because they’re not investing the time and effort to make it happen. It’s just not on their radar screen. Um, that’s, that’s what I’ve seen. And maybe

[00:45:27.48] spk_0:
your advice around increasing retention.

[00:45:49.66] spk_1:
Well, it has to be an organizational mandate number one. We are going to set these goals and they’re gonna go up. I mean, there has to be the board executive. Okay, This is gonna happen. All right. We’re not happy with this. Okay. Number one, we’ve got to make a change and then you go back and you just deconstruct every single piece of what you’re doing and you look at, okay, Is this adding to or or or or taking away from the ability to renew

[00:45:55.38] spk_0:
looking at the donor journey?

[00:45:57.40] spk_1:
Yes, yeah, just

[00:46:10.66] spk_0:
listeners, we recently had um uh, I guess talking about the, the welcome journey, your email welcome journey just within the past month or six weeks or so, So you know, that’s welcoming brand new donors, you do that over the first week to 10 days, so that’s part of what you’re talking about. That’s

[00:46:19.99] spk_1:
just absolutely, that’s

[00:46:21.07] spk_0:
the initial phase of what you’re talking about, that. But the whole journey, let

[00:46:24.43] spk_1:
me give an example of the initial phase why it’s so very important. Um you maybe you’re, I know, I know you’re old enough, I don’t remember a woman with the name of Pearl Mesta.

[00:46:33.82] spk_0:
No

[00:46:35.29] spk_1:
esto was the heiress to the Mesta Machine fortune in Pittsburgh, and they’re the ones that produced a lot of the heavy artillery and guns during World War two.

[00:46:43.25] spk_0:
I went to school at Carnegie Mellon. Uh

[00:46:45.69] spk_1:
there you go. I

[00:46:46.82] spk_0:
knew, so I know. Andrew Carnegie Did you ever

[00:46:50.17] spk_1:
machine in Homestead? It’s still there.

[00:46:52.45] spk_0:
Okay, I know Homestead Homestead works used to be, it was a big Steeltown Homestead. Okay. Mr Works. Alright.

[00:47:33.73] spk_1:
So anyway, Pearl Mesta uh in the 90 the sixties, uh, you know, was the grand dame of Washington social life. Okay. Everybody wanted to be invited to one of Pearl’s parties. Okay, whether you’re Republican democrat, it didn’t, it was the place to be boy and if you don’t wanna pearls list, you’re at the top and everyone came and it was a very congenial group? Well at one point someone asked her pearl, you know, what is it that makes your party? So everyone just can’t wait to get there. And here’s what she said. It’s all about the hellos and the goodbyes.

[00:47:38.65] spk_0:
Mm think

[00:47:43.30] spk_1:
about that. You know how

[00:47:43.71] spk_0:
welcome you feel, coming, coming and going

[00:48:00.93] spk_1:
right, right. And and she saw that as her job when someone crossed her threshold who may not know more than two people in the whole room, okay to make them feel at home and welcome. And that takes

[00:48:02.66] spk_0:
purpose

[00:48:03.63] spk_1:
to welcome them. Call them by name and you know, take care of their coats or whatever it is that you need to do and then introduce them to someone

[00:48:11.00] spk_0:
introduced right and

[00:48:28.66] spk_1:
get them started and break the ice for them. That’s what she did. And then when it was time for someone to leave, she didn’t let them sneak out the front door, the side door. Oh, tony thank you so much for coming. I can’t wait till I can have you here in my home again. See the difference, but that’s the hostess is as an active role then, you know, she’s not over there huddled in the corner with all of her friends,

[00:48:37.18] spk_0:
you

[00:48:37.35] spk_1:
know, and and there’s the difference and I’ve seen this in awareness meetings when I was in universities where you got the administrators all hovered over in the corner talking to themselves. you know, what the hell is this about? Get out there and talk to these other people?

[00:50:10.31] spk_0:
Yeah, I hope. Yeah, I used to see that when we had in person meetings, you know, too many, too many development folks or even it doesn’t, they don’t, it’s not even just the fundraisers, it’s, you know, too many insiders talking to each other because they’re all comfortable with it instead of talking to the donors who they don’t know or maybe just, you know, casually. No, but you know, I’m breaking the ice with those folks and making them feel welcome. Yeah, I hate to see those clusters of employees. Again, not only fundraisers, you know, anybody for any, anybody doing program work, anybody representing the organization at a public event, you shouldn’t be huddled with your fellow employees, you should be out talking to the public, telling them what you do. You it may be mundane to you, but it’s not mundane to them. They, you know, quoting from glengarry glen ross. They don’t step foot on the lot. If they don’t want to pay. If they don’t want to buy, they don’t step foot on the lot. They’re not ready to buy from the, from the alec baldwin, you know, booming iconic speech folks don’t set foot on the lot if they’re not ready to buy, they haven’t come to spend time with your organization, if they don’t want to learn about it. So whether you’re a fundraiser or you’re not, if you don’t have an outward facing job, then, you know, if you don’t want to talk to the public, then don’t come to the event. This is, this is an awareness raising. You

[00:50:15.95] spk_1:
know, just

[00:50:28.82] spk_0:
come to the employee holiday party and then you can huddle with all your fellow employees, but coming to a public event, talk to the public, get away from the folks, you know very well because you work with them and, and get out talking to folks you don’t know, tell them about what you do

[00:50:33.01] spk_1:
when I Years ago.

[00:50:35.31] spk_0:
That was a bit of a,

[00:50:36.67] spk_1:
it was not

[00:50:37.38] spk_0:
sure. I’m sorry. But

[00:50:38.83] spk_1:
you shouldn’t be

[00:50:40.50] spk_0:
years

[00:50:41.34] spk_1:
ago when I was running the major,

[00:50:44.06] spk_0:
when

[00:51:09.56] spk_1:
I was running the good major program at Suny Buffalo. I was very, we were very much mindful of, you know, and this is politically incorrect today. But we were in the Chiefs and indians A’s okay. How many, how many people do we have? We gotta make sure we balance this thing out and, and I, and I made I made it very clear to, to fundraising staff that were there. You know, here’s your assignment. You are not here to suck up free food and booze. Thank you very much. That’s not your role here. In fact, if you get anything to eat or drink at all. That’s, that’s lucky on your part. Okay. That’s not what your

[00:51:15.30] spk_0:
extreme. I like to feed food, I like to see that folks are said and, and uh, you know, plus you can meet people over the buffet table. Oh

[00:51:24.62] spk_1:
yeah, I mean I, I said that, I mean I expect people to enjoy themselves. Uh and I, and I think it’s important that,

[00:51:30.78] spk_0:
but, but there’s a reason that you’re there.

[00:51:32.71] spk_1:
Yeah, you’re not there just to suck up free food. I

[00:51:35.88] spk_0:
used to go to these events with the name, list of pack,

[00:51:38.85] spk_1:
list

[00:51:39.22] spk_0:
of pockets. I’m getting too excited. I used to go to these events like this with a list of names in my pocket, on a piece of paper folded in half. So it would fit in my breast jacket pocket. And these are the folks that I want to talk to who said they’re coming and from time to time I would excuse myself, go in the hall, look at the

[00:51:57.37] spk_1:
list,

[00:52:18.29] spk_0:
check with the front, the registration desk to make sure that these, you know, I can’t find somebody. Did they come or that they didn’t come so I can’t talk to them. But I would check the list, go and talk to folks you should be going with and, and for some of these folks, you know, there were, there were reasons I wanted to talk to them. Some of them, it was just a refresh and renew. But some, you know, I had a specific agenda item to talk to them about. You know, these these events are not, you know, to your point, you’re lucky if you eat and drink, they’re not social, these are work events.

[00:52:29.27] spk_1:
That’s right. You’re not

[00:52:30.01] spk_0:
gonna be, you’re gonna be working in advancing relationships.

[00:52:32.61] spk_1:
You’re not, you’re not just schmoozing, You’re working.

[00:52:36.47] spk_0:
Uh,

[00:52:53.03] spk_1:
this is purposeful. Um, well, and I used to, and I used to have the officers that attended, I used to have them submit the names to me of all the people they have meaningful conversations with. You know, how did we cover the floor? You know, it was left out. Um, that was key cause this, this was a very, of course, if it’s a sit down event, it’s all about strategic seating. Of

[00:52:58.37] spk_0:
course, yes, Yes. Don’t put the employees together. Put the right donors with the right potential donors. Put the right staff with the right donors. Yes. Be very intentional. Very purposeful

[00:53:10.75] spk_1:
or donors who have personal differences. You don’t see them together.

[00:53:16.96] spk_0:
Yes. Um, if it’s not a sit down event or if it’s the cocktail hour, you see somebody standing alone or sitting alone, over in a chair or a sofa, go up and introduce yourself.

[00:53:25.67] spk_1:
Don’t

[00:53:34.44] spk_0:
let people sit by themselves alone and stand alone in the cocktail hour. You know, they’re looking for somebody to come up to them, do it again. If you don’t want to do that kind of work, then just go to the employer employee holiday party.

[00:53:40.85] spk_1:
You

[00:53:41.90] spk_0:
know, you might not have an outward facing job. but if you’re going to an outward facing event representing the organization, then you need to be outward facing and not huddled with your fellow employees.

[00:53:51.68] spk_1:
So

[00:53:52.67] spk_0:
going back

[00:54:24.09] spk_1:
to the premise here of renew, that should be the number one driver in terms of the donor pool focus on renewal and building that relationship over time. Uh, it’s, you know, you know, in terms of, you know, I’m an engineer, I’m a business guy, you know, I’m interested in return on investment. How much does it cost? You know, and it is a cost. It’s much less expensive in dollars and cents to maintain a relationship to get a very large gift than it is to constantly be trying to bring new people into the fold as you know, No,

[00:54:25.71] spk_0:
that’s donor acquisition costs a lot more than donor.

[00:54:28.83] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s so much more expensive

[00:54:32.09] spk_0:
multiples.

[00:55:10.77] spk_1:
And so then from a financial point of view, it’s makes sense. Everything, It just makes sense. But you, but you’re really working on this relationship over time and then you do have an acquisition program that, that drops people in at various levels when they come in, but that’s where the focus should be every and so people aren’t doing that. As I said, the first step is to go back and deconstruct the entire program and begin to rebuild it with renewal as the number one focus. And then, and of course that’s gonna really, um, give some executives heartburn because they’re so dependent on these small first time gifts to make, to make a budget, you know, which is, you know, that’s an exercise in futility. But it happens all the time because that will absolutely give them heartburn. But what’s gonna happen here? What’s gonna happen there? But

[00:55:20.51] spk_0:
over time you’ll have a more sustainable fundraising revenue when you retain your donors and grow them

[00:55:27.41] spk_1:
well, not only sustainable, but a lot more money. Pure and simple. And I would go so far as to suggest that you could probably do this in a way that it wouldn’t even affect your current income levels. I think you get enough replacement from your acquisition in your renewal’s

[00:56:22.00] spk_0:
maybe maybe. But even if you don’t, it’s still worth, it’s still worth investing in the long term retention or renewal and growth of your existing donors. All right. That was # seven renew and refresh. Alright, so Larry, give us the rundown. Uh, are you able to recite them? Okay. Okay. Okay. So we’re gonna go through the eight. We, we touched on 4/8. So we did half the other half are at the eight principles dot com. Larry, please just run down your, your eight principles of sustainable fundraising.

[01:00:11.58] spk_1:
The a principles are principal one donors are the drivers donors dr philanthropy, but they drive it with their dreams, not their money principle. To begin at the beginning, you need to be able to know your mission and be able to communicate it in a way and in language and in areas and places where your prospective investors will receive it and understand it. Clearly three leadership leads, Your leadership leads, sets the tone for everything else and they will lead. Everybody else will follow their lead, whatever whether that’s good or bad principle for learning plan. You need to first learn who would naturally support you because not everyone will even philanthropic people, Not everyone will and then construct a plan or a program. And how do you reach those people? Where are they? What do they read? What do they do? Who are their friends? All this sort of thing. Principle five. Work from the inside out. Begin with those people closest to you, both in terms of, of affinity and to your mission but also closeness to your organization. That’s why I’m a big believer in doing board campaigns, annual campaigns and doing employee campaigns because it’s you begin and you move out in concentric circles, it’s like building that network. Principle six divide and grow simply treat different donors differently And you’re constructing a pathway that over time will bring your donors closer to you emotionally. Principles seven renew and refresh. Your first focus should be to renew your current investors, the other people who have already voted with their money. You know, they’ve already told you, hey, we support you and oftentimes they’re ignored or simply given you know, whatever. Quick, quick Thank you and then Principal eight integrate, evaluate, integrate, invest, integrate and evaluate. I get that. Right. Okay. So you, you tricked me up. Okay. First of all you have to invest in your program. It costs money to raise money. But this is the role of the board to understand what these general guidelines are in terms of what it takes to raise money over what length of time, you know, how much of investment do we have to make for it begin to pay off over time? Um, integrate. Now this can be, this can be a problem with small organizations or large organizations. And integration is simply understanding that you need to make sure that you, as you communicate as you solicit as you focus on your donor constituency. It needs to come across as a uniform message to the receiver. And what I mean by that is in the case of a big university. You, we have all these different appeals and their college and their this and plan giving and major giving and all this sort of thing. And you know, if, if those things aren’t coordinated the effect on the donor, it, it’s like they’re coming at them. They don’t know, you know, and we’ve all had the horror stories of that sort of thing. Um, you know, one in particular was, I was running again this back at Sunni and a major gift officer called me up. They were in California and they said, I just had a very interesting experience. And I said, what’s that? He said when I was in there visiting the couple, the doorbell rang and it was a plan giving officer. Well in the university’s wisdom, you know, our two organizations were silo where you see the result that God and so and then on the other end of the spectrum, another kind of offender of this kind of thing are the independent schools where they are soliciting parents left and right for every little ding dong thing on the face of the earth and people get worn out with that really quickly. And so you know, when I worked with independent schools, I say, hey, we need to budget as much as this is possible and have a uniform appeal to these donors and organizations schools that have done that the donor satisfaction goes up and they raise a lot more money. Okay,

[01:00:26.41] spk_0:
that’s integrate. So invest, integrate and evaluate,

[01:00:38.64] spk_1:
evaluate. You know, how many times have I heard? What we’ve always done it that way. What do you mean? You’ve always done it that way. That’s prescription for death in most places. And so every year there ought to be an evaluation of the plan evaluation. How do we perform, what do we do well, what we do not do well, what do we need to change? What do we need to tweet? What

[01:00:48.80] spk_0:
are the important, what are the real meaningful metrics?

[01:00:55.09] spk_1:
That’s right. And then how do we make those better larry

[01:00:55.64] spk_0:
johnson. The Eight Principles, You find the principles at the Eight Principles dot com. His book is the Eight principles of sustainable fundraising. You’ll find larry on linkedin Larry, thank you very, very much for sharing.

[01:01:08.53] spk_1:
Oh, it’s my pleasure, tony This was a lot of fun,

[01:02:18.43] spk_0:
I’m glad. Thank you. Thank you very much for being with me. Next week planned giving with eastern donors. I learned a lot in this one. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by Turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turned life into dot C. O. And by fourth dimension technologies i Tion for in a box, they’re affordable tech solution for nonprofits at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for d just like three D But as you know, they go one dimension deeper and they’ve got the free offer. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that. Affirmation Scottie with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great