Tag Archives: evaluation

Nonprofit Radio for October 9, 2023: Performance Improvement


Heather BurrightPerformance Improvement

Do you want to get the best out of your teams? That means getting the best from each player. Heather Burright recommends 360 Degree Feedback and she takes you full circle. She’s CEO of Skill Masters Market. (This originally aired on August 9, 2021.)


Listen to the podcast

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

I love our sponsor!

Donorbox: Powerful fundraising features made refreshingly easy.


Apple Podcast button




We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

Transcript for 661_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231009.mp3

Processed on: 2023-10-09T13:30:45.055Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2023…10…661_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231009.mp3.766572740.json
Path to text: transcripts/2023/10/661_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231009.txt

[00:00:40.71] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. And I am feeling better about 95% to normal. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d suffer with leishmaniasis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming?

[00:01:10.30] spk_1:
Hey, tony, this week it’s performance improvement. Do you want to get the best out of your teams? That means getting the best from each player. Heather Burright recommends 3 60 degree feedback and she takes you full circle. She’s CEO of skill masters market. This originally aired on August 9th, 2021. On Tony’s take two,

[00:01:12.64] spk_0:
one from the

[00:01:46.44] spk_1:
archive were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box dot org. And by Kela grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers crm visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is performance improvement.

[00:02:13.66] spk_0:
It’s my pleasure to welcome Heather Bur Wright, she is founder and CEO of Skill Masters Market, creating dynamic people centric solutions that drive business goals. She has 15 years of experience identifying core competencies that are needed to see real results and creating the learning strategies needed to develop them. The company is at skill masters market dot com and Heather is at Heather Burright. Heather. Welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:22.80] spk_2:
Hey, tony, thanks for having me. It’s a

[00:02:37.38] spk_0:
pleasure. Absolute pleasure we’re talking about, we’re talking about performance improvement and you use this tool called 360 degree feedback. So we’re gonna start with the basics. What’s an overview of 360 degree

[00:03:07.78] spk_2:
feedback? Yeah, absolutely. Um So 360 degree feedback, a 3 60 assessment is a great way to get feedback. It’s exactly what it sounds like to get feedback with that 360 degree view. So you can invite people like your supervisor, your peers, your direct reports, um other colleagues or partners and you can get anonymous feedback all in one place and then you have some good comparison data. So you can see how you’re being perceived. Uh There’s also a self uh survey as part of that. So you can compare how you’re being perceived to how you’re perceiving yourself and it just gives you really rich information. So that as you start to think about, what do I want to work on? Where do I want to invest my time, my energy, my resources, you have some really good data to work with, to help inform that. So you can prioritize your professional development a little better.

[00:03:32.26] spk_0:
It sounds very interesting to uh compare what you think of yourself to what others think of you do. You uh have you, you’ve been doing this for many years, you see a lot of um disparities, uh a lot of incongruent between self assessment and the assessment that others have provided.

[00:03:54.63] spk_2:
There. There can be for sure. Um I actually, with 3 60 assessments, I feel like you’re

[00:03:59.79] spk_0:
living in deep denial. Maybe

[00:04:52.28] spk_2:
it happens with 3 60 assessments. I feel like um how you show up to different groups of people can intentionally be different. So what your supervisor sees may be different from what your direct report see or what your peers see and that might be OK. So it’s about taking that information, finding those discrepancies, finding that alignment and then interpreting it uh for your own, your own work, your own lifestyle and, and what, how you wanna be, you know, showing up to all of those different groups. I actually do something and it’s not for, for today’s conversation, but I actually do something called an intercultural development inventory, the I dia qualified administrator for them and that assesses uh intercultural confidence. And there’s actually uh I’ve seen a greater disparity in that assessment than in 3 60 assessment asses which typically assess more general or more common leadership competencies.

[00:05:12.82] spk_0:
OK. All right. So in the, in the intercultural intercultural assessment, people perceive themselves as more aware, sensitive conscious than, than they are perceived by others. Not surprised. Yes,

[00:05:18.43] spk_2:
we do that a lot. Right. We do. It’s why, for me that’s why, you know, we all think

[00:05:24.01] spk_0:
we all think we’re great people.

[00:05:26.17] spk_2:
We do and we are right there. We all have great skill sets and things that we can offer the world. But I think if you think about your to do list, right? A lot of us will tend to put too many things on our plate. And then we wonder why we can’t accomplish at all. It’s because our perception is not always matched to our reality.

[00:06:04.88] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. Perception and reality, right can diverge greatly. OK? That could be, I mean, this could be fodder for therapy too. But, but when we’re talking about coaching, because coaching, you know, you need, uh I gather, you need somebody to help you assess all this input that’s coming in. And especially if you’re deeply divergent between what you think and what others think. Uh you know, you, I could see how coaching would be critical so that you don’t jump off a cliff with these results.

[00:07:04.51] spk_2:
Yes, absolutely. With 3 60 assessments, I recommend going through the assessment process, which just helps to increase kind of your own self awareness where you are, where you want to be and then working with a coach to help prompt you to action. So, in the awareness phase and you know, you’re taking this assessment process, it’s anonymous feedback. So it’s feedback that you’re not necessarily going get anywhere else. Most people aren’t gonna just walk up to you and say your communication skills are not as good as you think they are. So it’s feedback that you’re not necessarily going to get anywhere else and it can show that those discrepancies in that alignment, um which is really, really helpful, it brings a lot of self-awareness to the table. But then during that coaching session, you can start to identify action, focus on the action that you want to take. So you’re able to identify, you know, which skills are, are most essential to your current role. And how did you do on those skills or which skills are most essential to future role? If you wanna look at it from a future perspective, I know I wanna move into this other position or this other role. And so what skills are gonna be most important there? What do I need to work on to get there? And so you can start to consider what you might need to leverage. What are your strongest skills are? Uh but also what you might need to enhance as you move forward. And then those skills which are identifying with that coach uh can become part of a custom action plan that you have. So again, you’re able to prioritize your professional development a little more effectively.

[00:07:47.84] spk_0:
Ok. Um All right. So let’s take a step back. We, we get a little ahead, but that’s ok. Um, where, what’s the, all right. So you’ve already said this is confidential. It’s anonymous. All right. So it’s, it’s really the best information we’re gonna get. Um, it’s from all different, all different networks. So it’s people that are lateral to you, uh, working for you who you work for could be others. I mean, I don’t know, in nonprofits, might you go to, you go to board members? If there’s a relationship there, if there’s some liaison, work there or something, would you go to? Maybe donors, would you, donors, volunteers that the person is working with or is that really not appropriate to ask them to participate in?

[00:08:16.89] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ve not seen anybody go to donors, but definitely volunteers if you’re, if you’re working with them in a capacity where they’re going to see those skills at play, right? If they, if you’re not working with them in that way, they wouldn’t make a good feedback provider.

[00:08:30.94] spk_0:
Ok. All right. So volunteer. Yeah, donors, that seems like a little much to ask for someone to rate the person that you rate the fundraiser that you work with or something. Ok. Um, so let’s identify the benefits for the organization that would do a 3 60 assessment.

[00:09:38.71] spk_2:
Sure. Yeah. So what I love about assessments is that they are strategic uh but also compassionate, human centered, right? So when it comes to leadership development, um professional development is especially important. You want your leaders to be better, you want them to be stronger for your organization and you want them to perform well. So assessing on uh those common leadership competencies, gives a baseline that is both relevant to their work and to your organization and practical. Um But you also, if you think about the human Center piece of it, um your leaders also have dreams, they also have goals beyond just your their role at your organization. And so, uh by having the 3 60 assessment, you’re able to assess those things, those competencies that are important for your organization, but you’re also giving them some ownership and what they do with that information. And so they’re able to tailor the, the action plan that they’re gonna get out of this, they’re able to tailor that based on what their goals are within the organization as well. So whatever they decide to do will benefit the organization, but it will also be tailored to them. And so they, it will benefit themselves, you know, their own development as well.

[00:10:00.92] spk_0:
So I’m gonna ask about some outliers ha have you seen cases where the, the assessment was just so bad that the, the organization decided, you know, we, we gotta just let this person go like we just, we can’t, there’s no performance plan, there’s no action, there’s no action worksheet. That’s gonna, that’s gonna, that’s gonna bring this person along. It’s, it’s, it’s just

[00:11:07.34] spk_2:
hopeless. Yeah. So I have not, uh my recommendation is not to use it to use a 3 60 assessment in a punitive way. Um And so you would only use a 3 60 assessment. If there’s someone that you want them to develop, you want to see them develop and grow within your organization. Um And in fact, I I recommend that the results are kept confidential between the participant and the coach and that no one else actually gets a copy of those results. I actually get that request a lot at the board level. If it’s the, it’s the CEO that’s going through um the assessment process, the board chair will, will want those results. My recommendation is, is not to do it that way. Um I also get a lot of um requests for the 3 60 assessment to be the performance review and that’s also not a great use of a 3 60 assessment. You wanna do the performance review separately and then one of their goals through that performance review process might be to complete a 3 60 assessment. But again, only if you’re really invested in them growing and developing as a leader, not as a way to, to sort of move them out of the organization,

[00:11:32.68] spk_0:
it’s counterintuitive, not using the assessment as a as performance uh evaluation tool. What, what why is that say? Say a little more about why that’s not recommended.

[00:12:06.47] spk_2:
Yeah, I think so for me. Um, I think giving the 3 60 assessment to someone that you um believe in and you are valuing their contributions, you’re gonna have a lot better outcome. They’re going to be more honest in the assessment process. Uh, their feedback providers are probably going to be more honest as well and then they’re able to have a good honest conversation with their coach and they’re able to kind of lean into that vulnerability without constantly thinking, I’m gonna get fired, right. It’s actually really good useful information to grow. Um And I would recommend 3 60 assessments for star performers. Um you know, just as much as I would for those that you are looking to develop for a particular reason.

[00:12:30.57] spk_0:
Ok. Ok. Um So how do we get started with this uh uh in the, in the organization? I mean, if we’re gonna suppose we’re gonna do this enterprise wide, I mean, that could mean, you know, 456 employees for some listeners, it may mean hundreds of employees. How do we start this? Yeah, where do we start?

[00:14:13.63] spk_2:
Yeah. So every organization is different, they’re going to approach it in a slightly different way. Um The I work with a vendor that hosts 3 60 assessments. So those assessments are already created, they’re standard, they exist for um different types of leadership. So whether it’s the, the CEO executive director or um whether it’s more of an di contributor in individual contributor or something in between, they have assessments um that are tailored to each of those different um types of roles within an organization. So I would, you know, first look at um how do you want to roll this out? Um A lot of organizations will start with maybe a senior leadership team to show that they’re, you know, modeling what they, what they, what they would ask of their other staff. Um And so they might start with a leadership team, um have a small group, go through this process and then look at adding some additional staff to that. Um The only thing that you would wanna consider really is um great or fatigue. So if in an organization, you’re going to be asking the same people to provide feedback to multiple people at the same time, um that can get a little bit fatiguing and then they might not be as honest or they might not take as much time um as they go through the assessment because they’re just trying to get through all of them. Uh So you want the readers, the people who are providing the feedback um to feel like they have the time and um you know, the energy to get through those assessments as well.

[00:14:32.73] spk_0:
Yeah, because if, if, if there’s a lot of people at the same level and you’re evaluating your peers, right? I mean, you could have to be doing a lot of these. All right. So how do you overcome that spread, spread out the time and give them more time to do. I mean, I suppose you have to do six or eight of these things.

[00:14:46.78] spk_2:
I would start with a smaller group and then as that group finishes, you could look at bringing in another group to complete the assessment.

[00:15:28.11] spk_1:
It’s time frame break donor box. You’ve heard the testimonials, easy set up fast checkout QR codes simple for your donors and incredible results like you’ve gone to 10, eighteen’s 70% increase in donations. If you’re looking for a fast flexible and donor friendly fundraising platform for your organization. Check out donor box, donor box dot org. Now back to performance improvement.

[00:15:31.56] spk_0:
So this is not something that sounds like it can be easily done in house. You, you’re saying you work with a vendor that already has these, these assessment tools published. It sounds like something that would be kind of hard to recreate in house and, and do and do. Well,

[00:16:08.09] spk_2:
I think it depends on just the resources of the organization. Uh There are really good off the shelf assessments where you don’t have to spend the money to create something that’s custom to your organization. You can a lot of um a lot of the vendors who offer off the shelf um assessments can also do custom assessments for your organization, but it’s, it’s a fairly resource heavy project um, because you wanna make sure that whatever gets created is statistically relevant. It’s a valid assessment and all of that. And so, um, to do that a lot of times it does take more time and more resources to make it happen.

[00:16:25.93] spk_0:
What happens if there’s an outlier in the, in the Raiders, like one person rates somebody so high or so low compared to the other six or eight people. That, that rate what, what happens to those outlier ratings.

[00:17:23.67] spk_2:
Yeah, that does happen from time to time. You’ll have somebody who, um, you know, every question just about is really high or really low. Um, you know, I, as a coach, um, I might ask the participant, um, if they have any thoughts about why that might be the case and we might have some conversation around, you know, why someone might be rating really high or really low. It is anonymous. So, unless it’s the supervisor, they’re probably not going to know who said, you know, who it is, that’s rating them that’s out there. Um, but you can have some good conversation that way. Sometimes there’s not, you know, anything that comes to mind that would make someone, um, be completely different than the other radio. And so, um, you know, you’re gonna kind of go with the, with the theme across and so if most people are rating you at a four and then one person at a one, perhaps that one person had one particular experience that they’re, they’re, you know, calling to mind if they’re completing the assessment. And so that’s causing those scores because

[00:17:45.64] spk_0:
the person, you, you, you keep their car when they took your parking space to the right,

[00:17:52.72] spk_2:
you never know, you never know. Uh And so it’s, it’s information um but it’s not necessarily the focus because the theme is that most people are, are rating you in that four.

[00:18:52.95] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kela increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kela. The fundraisers, CRM maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser, Crm goes beyond a data management platform. It’s designed with unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit, Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals like never before. It’s time for Tonys take two. Thanks, Kate.

[00:24:10.82] spk_0:
I’m replaying the Tony’s take two from the show that Heather Burright appeared on. I was talking about sharing non profit radio, but I went into a, a bit of a tangent about waiting tables and sharing tips. Here. It is, sharing is still caring. Who can you share a non profit radio with? I was thinking it could be a lackluster colleague or maybe somebody who’s in another non profit or you know, a friend who works elsewhere who you just happen to know is not up to speed mediocre, lackluster because we’re talking this week about performance improvement. So, whose performance do you want to improve? That’s the person you refer to nonprofit radio. They need to be listening. They got to up their game. They don’t want to be mediocre and lackluster any longer and you don’t want them to be, especially if they work in your shop, they’re dragging you down. It’s like when you used to, did you ever wait tables? Those are waited tables. If, if you did and sharing tips. Oh, that’s the worst. It was just last week. Um I wrapped it up. Yeah, just, just in just uh late July uh no years ago waiting tables and we shared tips, the mediocre people bring you down and you know who they are. You, you know, you can hear them at the adjacent tables. The adjacent station, I was always mediocre at one thing. I was terrible, worse than mediocre. I was always terrible at cappuccinos when somebody ordered a cappuccino. And I had a face that daunting high, highly polished copper machine with the nozzle for the milk and the foam and the, the knobs and the, they gotta press the espresso in right and it’s just the right pressure and the milk has to be the right temperature and this, this machine just scared the hell out of me just to look at the thing. I didn’t even like walking by it. I got, I, I would, I would get, I would get, I would get sweats just walking past it. Let alone, I had to face off with the thing when somebody ordered a cappuccino or God forbid, a table table of four or six. Yeah. Well, all round of cappuccinos. Oh, my God. Every other table in my station is gonna be half an hour late Now while I fight with this machine to get the milk to the right temperature and the foam and the right consistency and the wh cappuccinos my death. I really somebody who wrote a cappuccino. You sure you don’t want a Limoncello. I have a Limoncello on the house give you I’ll give the table around Limoncello. If you will, you alone will just not get a cappuccino. All right. That was my bane as a waiter. But so, so, but that didn’t bring the tips down cause everybody got free drinks because I hardly ever poured once I got smart. Of course, the house didn’t like it but they never knew. Um So you know, so the tips actually were, were better because I was given free drinks for everybody to bribe them away from a single cappuccino. So that aside the uh yeah, the sharing of tips, I hated it. I the, the, the, the, the poor performers were always dragging us down were killing us every night and I could hear them you know, that in low energy they forget what the specials are. They read the specials of their little, their, their parchment paper, little, little note pad because they couldn’t afford to buy a new one because their tips are so low because they’re so poor and they were gonna drag me down with them. Well, first of all I didn’t use the little book. I used to memorize the specials. I never liked looking at that because the thing gets red wine spilled on it. And you know, it’s, it wouldn’t get cappuccino on it because I didn’t know how to make them, but it might get milk on it as I was trying. So the poor performers, the poor performers in your nonprofit, I’m bringing it back. I’m bringing it back. Don’t worry. Uh You know, they’re dragging you down. So you got to refer them to non profit radio. That’s it. You want to raise the level of all the boats. Wait, you want to raise the level of the whole sea. Wait, you wanna raise, you wanna, you wanna raise all the boats, you gotta raise the sea. That’s what it is or the yacht basin. So your organization, you’re non profit, that’s the yacht basin. You gotta, you wanna raise all the boats, you gotta raise the sea. Refer these poor performers to nonprofit radio. That’s the point. That’s where I’m headed. All right, cappuccinos and Limoncello. Who can you refer non profit radio to I’d be grateful. Remember, board members too, if you got any friends, they’re board members. Board members are great listeners. They, they use it to stimulate conversation to stimulate thinking very valuable. Plus anybody who works for a nonprofit naturally. Thank you. Thanks for thinking about it. Who you can refer non profitt radio to? That is Tony’s take two. That is Tony’s take two Kate.

[00:24:15.55] spk_1:
You know, dad just got a new espresso and cappuccino machine. So when you come over for the holidays, we’re gonna learn how to make cappuccino. So you can’t, you know,

[00:24:38.92] spk_0:
I can practice, I can practice on the, on the, on that machine. All right, I’m telling you those things scared me. It’s got that long tube with the milk that, that the milk has to come out of and steam and froth and the knobs and everything.

[00:24:40.94] spk_1:
You’re gonna be an expert by the end of the holidays.

[00:24:44.12] spk_0:
Ok. Christmas cappuccinos. I’ll, I’ll be pouring them. All right.

[00:24:49.07] spk_1:
We’ve got, we’ve got just about a butt load more time. Let’s go back to performance improvement.

[00:25:01.75] spk_0:
And what form do people who are rated, get this information in? WW? Is it something quantitative or is it narrative or both or what, what are they seeing? What’s each person who gets rated seeing?

[00:25:34.04] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. So, um the vendor that I work with particularly, um and I think this is true of, of other vendors that I’ve seen as well. Um There is data that’s involved. So you will be able to see for each question um how you were rated, you’ll be able to compare those scores by the different R groups. Um A lot of times there is um an opportunity to roll that data up as well, so you can start to see overall what are my strengths and my development opportunities. Um And then there’s typically something um a little more qualitative um included as well where people can kind of open comments, provide feedback and you can spend some time looking at that as

[00:25:54.30] spk_0:
well. Ok. Ok. Um And, and let’s talk more about the, the coaching and the, and maybe the work plan that goes along with improving areas that aren’t so strong. Um How long does that last or what? What, what does that look like?

[00:26:55.70] spk_2:
Yeah, so um the assessment process itself uh can take a few weeks just to get that feedback. You know, you’re gonna do self assessment, you’re gonna invite your readers, they’re gonna go in, provide their feedback, it’s gonna generate the, the data, the report for you. Um And then the coaching session you want at least one that I would say is the absolute minimum. I thought this was right to go through that data. Um If you’re really looking to, to see that person um that participant make progress on their action plan, so they’re making progress towards their goals, then I definitely recommend looking at a longer term relationship with that coach because they can start to become an accountability partner and they can continue to prompt them to action. They can continue to help them think through how they’re gonna apply what they’re learning on the job. And so there’s just a lot of value there. Um, I would say that about that, um, does vary by organization as well. Um, but if you want to see, you know, those results, um, and see the action being taken. Um I would say at least three months um probably longer to, to watch that behavior start to change.

[00:27:33.84] spk_0:
Uh Tell us a story about an organization or it could be a person. Um I kind of like the organization level if you have a story like that, like where you saw, you know, you saw them go through this process and you saw improvement among key people in the organization and they don’t have to be senior leaders, but you saw, you saw improvement, you know, you saw a benefit come out of this, whatever, eight months later, a year later, a year and a half later, you know, share a little story.

[00:29:27.05] spk_2:
Yeah. So um for, I guess for anonymity sake, I can share my own story because I have been through the 3 60 assessment process um myself. Um If you like, so I, when I went through the 3 60 assessment process, um some of the feedback that I received was that I needed to use my voice more that I had, um, you know, good ideas when I spoke up and that I needed to, you know, speak up more and make sure that people heard and valued what, you know, whatever it was that I had to say. And it was something that I, it was a piece of feedback that I found very interesting because I felt like in some environments, I was pretty quick to speak up to, you know, take a lead in something um to have my voice heard. And then in other environments, I might be a little less likely to do that. And it just kind of depended on the situation. What um I was on a lot of cross functional project teams at the time. So, you know, what was my role on that project? Who was leading that project, that kind of thing? To me, it all felt very strategic about when I was um using my voice and, and when I wasn’t, but with that feedback, right, that’s information. So with that feedback, I was able to um start to think about how do I want to use my voice? And um when do I want to use my voice and what would it look like or what would it feel like to be heard in, in different settings? And uh through that process, I was able to um more intentionally start pick up um not just in meetings, but also, um you know, one on one with my supervisor and say, you know, hey, I’m interested in this or I wanna know more about this or I think we should do this or whatever the case is. And I was able to start using my voice a little more intentionally. And the within the organization, um and saw from a, from a career perspective, saw my own, my own career start to um open up and, and grow quite a bit from that.

[00:29:56.55] spk_0:
And so the feedback you got wasn’t as nuanced as you would have, you would have thought it would be like you said, certain situations, you were deli deliberately reticent to speak up and others, you were more vocal, but the feedback wasn’t that nuanced.

[00:30:31.97] spk_2:
Correct, correct. Because if my, if you think about like my peers, they’re seeing me in different environments or uh my partners, I was working on a lot of cross functional teams. So I had partners from all over the organization that were providing feedback. And so depending on which projects I was working on, I might have been leading the project or I might have been just a contributor on the project. And so depending on um what my role was, I was showing up differently in those settings,

[00:30:51.04] spk_0:
right? So each people, each person saw you differently. They didn’t, they didn’t see the full breath. But overall, you took it as I should speak up more, I should be more assertive, I

[00:30:52.06] spk_2:
guess Yeah, absolutely. And just think about how I’m being perceived as well, right, within a, within a meeting or, um, a team.

[00:31:06.28] spk_0:
And then how about developing an action plan? What, uh, what, what do you do that in conjunction with the coach or what ho how does that, how does that look? And how long is an action plan last?

[00:32:56.08] spk_2:
Yeah. So I recommend doing that in conjunction with a coach, uh, at least on that first coaching call to have um something in mind that you’re gonna be working towards. So I typically go through kind of the who, what, when, where, why, how questions. So um you know, what is it that you wanna do? What is it that you wanna focus on? Which competency is standing out to you? Which area are you believing that you want to develop in some way? Again, it could be enhancing um or leveraging a strength that could be enhancing something that’s a little bit weaker. But what is it that you wanna work on? And then how are you going to do that? Are you gonna go um to a training? Are you gonna participate in a leadership program? Are you going to, you start listening to podcasts like this one about, you know, whatever topic you’re trying to work on, what is it that you are going to commit to, to develop that particular skill? It could be taking on a different project at work, right? That you know, is gonna challenge that skill set. So um thinking through your options and deciding how you want to develop that skill and then also with that, putting a timeline to it. So when, when are you gonna start, um what are the, you know, milestones that are gonna be along the way? How long will it take you to complete whatever it is that you’re deciding you want to do? Um And then from there, who, who’s gonna help you, who’s gonna help hold you accountable? We know that most people don’t just change automatically. So if you think about the number of people who um don’t uh follow through on their New Year’s resolutions, right? It, it takes more than just knowing that you need to change or even sometimes having a desire to change and so who can help you, who can be that accountability partner for you, um to make sure that you’re working on this goal and, and it could be the coach, but it could be someone else as well. It could be a supervisor, it could be a peer, um a partner, even someone just in your life that’s going to help, um help you, you know, work towards your goals. And so going through some of those questions, you’re able to put together an action plan that includes things like that timeline. How long you’re gonna be working on it? What do we

[00:33:21.08] spk_0:
do for the folks who really just don’t take this feedback. Well, maybe there are strengths but they’re not, they’re not acknowledging those or maybe, maybe they don’t have strengths identified or let’s just say it’s objectively, it’s, well forget, um, subjectively it’s taken as very bad, forget how it looks objectively. The, the person is taking it very badly, very hard

[00:33:41.46] spk_2:
it happens.

[00:33:42.08] spk_0:
What do we do? What do we do?

[00:34:27.39] spk_2:
So, you know, a skilled coach will probably do one of two things. I, I believe I’m a skilled coach, but a skilled coach will likely do one of two things. Um, one try to on that call, uh, get to at the, the bottom of that feeling, basically what’s causing it. Why am I getting such a reaction from this information? Um, just trying to understand perhaps there’s something that is triggering the reaction beyond just what’s on, on the, the paper, so to speak. And so having that conversation can actually sometimes move people into a new place, a better place to, to have the conversation that you have wanna have. Um, another option. And, and another thing that a skilled coach might do is just ask to reschedule the call. Um, because sometimes

[00:34:36.89] spk_0:
to do what reschedule

[00:34:53.58] spk_2:
the call, the coach call, right? Um Because sometimes there’s just something, whatever it is, whether it’s a, uh, a data point or a comment that has been included in the feedback, something just hijacks you and you can’t move past it in that moment, but that doesn’t mean that two weeks from now, one week from now you wouldn’t be able to move past that. And so sometimes having some space can, can be really beneficial. And so just saying, you know what it sounds like, this is not gonna, you know, be a good time for us to have this conversation. Why don’t we reconnect on Tuesday and then you’re giving some, them some space to kind of think through and process what they’re, what they’re learning in the assessment.

[00:35:21.60] spk_0:
Ok. I could see how some people could take it hard.

[00:35:23.86] spk_2:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. There’s that one comment, the comment that

[00:35:29.60] spk_0:
like maybe you even thinking, I know who said that. I know who that was. He killed me.

[00:35:36.52] spk_2:
Yes. People spend time trying to figure out who said what and it’s not, that’s not the point, right of the assessment and so helping them move past that can, can be part of the, have you had

[00:35:48.58] spk_0:
people plead with you to tell you? Oh, come on, who said that?

[00:35:51.98] spk_2:
Well, as a coach, I don’t know who’s at it. So

[00:35:55.20] spk_0:
it’s anonymous to

[00:36:08.79] spk_2:
you. It is, I, I might know uh for the, for the data points, I know which group it came out of and, and they do too, um but not necessarily for the open field comments. Um And so it’s, it’s, you know, you can think about this all day, but it doesn’t mean you’re gonna get it right. And then what if you do, what, then what, you know what’s gonna change for you? How are you going to use that information? So,

[00:36:17.88] spk_0:
now I’m, now I’m blowing this up. Like, have there been cases of retaliation where somebody confronted somebody? I know you, I know you’re the one who wrote this.

[00:36:26.79] spk_2:
I, I would guess somewhere in the world that perhaps that is the case. Um, but I have not experienced

[00:36:42.49] spk_0:
that. All right. No workplace blow ups or confrontations over 3 60 assessments. All right. All right. Um What else, what else would you like us to know? We still got, we got some time left. What like what happened? I asked you that you think folks should know about these 3 60 degree feedback?

[00:38:23.26] spk_2:
Yeah, I would just add that. Um So I work with, with nonprofit leaders to help them create scalable learning strategies. And um you know, oftentimes when there is some sort of learning need, some sort of professional development need, we go to training and I create training. So I’m biased. I, I like it. I think it’s a great solution but it’s a solution. And I think pairing any other sort of professional development program, um like a training with a 3 60 assessment is actually even more valuable because if you’re able to assess your skills first and then say, here’s where I need to improve, here’s where I need to focus and then you send them through, say a leadership training, they have that skill set in mind. As they’re going through that training, they’re focused on that particular skill set, whether it’s, you know, communication or relationship building or whatever they’re focused on that, they’re gonna get back out of it and then you’re gonna see some really intentional transformation um because they had the assessment process first. So when I think about creating scalable learning strategies for organizations, it is thinking through that whole process, how can we make sure that we’re being strategic, that the organization is getting what they need? But then also thinking about the individual within the audience. So things like 3 60 assessments combined with formal training, combined with coaching, um can actually be a really effective way to see how people grow and develop. I think, you know, for me, I think people are worthy of investment and then I think investing in your people, make them feel valued and gives them, you know, a new, new skills and a new passion for their work. Um And as leaders in our organizations, we get to create that environment, we get to create those opportunities so that our people can thrive. And so an assessment is one great tool that you can use in conjunction with many other tools to help your your leaders grow and develop.

[00:39:02.09] spk_0:
So then by coalescing all the assessment data for all the individual people, you’re saying you can target training enterprise wide that that helps lift lift skill deficits that, that are like common across lots of people in the organization.

[00:39:27.21] spk_2:
You can, you can. And even if you have a general leadership program, if your individuals have gone through the 3 60 assessment process, they’re looking to develop particular skills. And so they’re gonna be looking to find that you, you often find what you’re looking for, right? So they’re gonna be looking to find whatever that is in the leadership program. So even if it’s a, a more general program that you’re offering, um or you’re, you know, sending people to the 3 60 assessment, gives that individual information so that they look for that when they’re in that program. Yeah.

[00:39:51.41] spk_0:
Right. Right. As you said, right. They’re looking, they find what they’re looking for. Yeah. Absolutely. Ok. All right, we leave it there, Heather, what do you

[00:39:53.31] spk_2:
think? That sounds good, tony. Thanks for having me.

[00:40:10.16] spk_0:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. Absolutely. Heather Bright founder and CEO of Skill Masters Market. The company is at Skill Masters market dot com and she is at Heather Burright. Thank you again, Heather. Thanks tony

[00:40:18.28] spk_1:
next week. Financial Fitness for your board. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:40:21.11] spk_0:
I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com

[00:41:11.92] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your non profit donor box dot org and by Kela, grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency. With Kila, the fundraisers CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meer. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. Social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:41:26.83] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for January 4, 2021: New Year, New Charity Navigator

My Guests:

Michael Thatcher & Elijah Goldberg: New Year, New Charity Navigator
The rating site Charity Navigator has taken on impact reporting and vastly expanded the number of nonprofits evaluated. What does all this mean for your nonprofit? How do you get in on CN’s Encompass rating system? Michael Thatcher and Elijah Goldberg, both from Charity Navigator, chart your course across the freshly open waters.




Listen to the podcast

Subscribe to get the podcast
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Stitcher

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

I love our sponsors!

Turn Two Communications: PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is our mission.


Dot Drives: Raise more money. Change more lives.

We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

Transcript for 519_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20210104.mp3

Processed on: 2021-01-05T07:02:37.482Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2021…01…519_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20210104.mp3.745159472.json
Path to text: transcripts/2021/01/519_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20210104.txt

[00:02:42.94] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Happy New Year. I hope you enjoyed the heck out of your New Year and the holidays. I hope you took time off. I hope the new year meant some time for reflection for you. Reflection backwards. Reflection. Looking ahead. Um, yeah, it’s a good time for reflection on. I hope you enjoyed the heck out of your holidays. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of neo and a phobia if I feared that you missed this week’s show. New Year New Charity Navigator. The rating sight charity Navigator has taken on impact reporting and vastly expanded the number of nonprofits evaluated. What does all this mean for your non profit? Have you get in on CNN’s encompass rating system? Michael Thatcher and Elijah Goldberg, both from Charity Navigator, chart your course across the freshly open waters. I’m tony is take two New year optimism. I can’t help it were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor. Simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month. Let’s kick off 2021 New Year. New Charity Navigator It’s my pleasure to welcome Michael Thatcher and Elijah Goldberg to the show. Michael Thatcher leads Charity Navigator in its efforts Toe make impactful philanthropy easier for all by improving evaluation methods so that more charities get rated. More potential donors view the ratings and all the stakeholders arm or engaged. Charity Navigator is that charity Navigator or GE? And Michael is at M. Thatcher. Elijah Goldberg leads the development of Charity Navigator’s impact ratings. He’s the former executive director and co founder of Impact Matters, which charity Navigator acquired this year. 2020 to incorporate impact estimates into its ratings. He’s at Elijah Goldberg. Michael, Elijah. Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:48.34] spk_1:
Delighted to be here, tony. Thank you.

[00:02:50.12] spk_0:
Thank you for

[00:02:50.64] spk_2:
having us.

[00:02:51.17] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you. Thank you. Michael. Why don’t you get us started? Um, just since July, Charity navigator is evaluating. Ah, lot more charities than you were earlier this year.

[00:03:29.24] spk_1:
Yeah, and essentially, we’ve made a pretty big step change going from rating annually. About 9000 charities a year to reading 160,000. So exponential shift. And that’s primarily due to the fact that we have a lot mortuary teas now that our e filing their 1990 which is the tax form they use and were able to process that information with greater automation than we were in the past.

[00:03:46.04] spk_0:
Yeah, well, I don’t I don’t want to quibble with with a numbers person, numbers and technology, person. But you say it’s exponential. 9000 to 160,000, but 9000, just 9000 just squared would be 81 million.

[00:03:51.54] spk_1:
So it zig

[00:03:53.79] spk_0:
to what’s sad, Elijah exponents could be fractions, right? Oh, Could be a fraction. Okay. All right. So it could be okay. Yeah. The point is, thank you. There’s a numbers person. All right. Thank you very much. So it doesn’t have to be a whole number. All right? So you’re Yes. Thank you. Um, I already got myself in trouble. We’re not even, like, two minutes into this. All right?

[00:04:18.09] spk_2:
Uh, all the time.

[00:04:18.75] spk_0:
All right. But I’m thinking at least I’m thinking about what you’re saying. I’m not I’m not just glossing over. All right, so, you know, from 269,000? Yeah. So I think a lot of people are still thinking you’re in there, like, eight or 9000 range. So we’ve got to dispel that misconception. Right away. 160. All right.

[00:04:35.34] spk_1:
Yeah. Three other thing. Just. Well, the other thing that to say on that is what this is allowing for is it’ll. It’s opening up to smaller, newer in a very different set of nonprofits. And we’ve been looking at in the past

[00:05:19.24] spk_0:
because of this automation I gather when it was I mean, I remember when it was just a few 1000 then it grew to several 1000. That was big news. Um, I don’t give a shout out to Ken Berger when Ken Berger was CEO. He’s been on. He was on the show a few times. Um uh, you have charity navigator. Um, but eso now, automation, you’ve you’ve scaled up considerably. Um, that’s which. Which benefits more charities. Which benefits more donors and potential donors. Um, yeah. So at the end of our conversation, we’re gonna get into what should a charity do just to get rated for the for the many that aren’t How did they get You know what we’re gonna talk about and encompass rating? How do they get an impact and result rating we’re gonna get? So we’re gonna hold that off till the end. Like, what do charities do to get these to get to the next level from where they might be? Um, but so, Michael, acquaintance with the Encompass rating system, which is also new.

[00:06:55.74] spk_1:
Sure. And I think that’s really the key to the significant growth in the number of ratings. So encompasses looking to leverage, leverage, automation, where we can bring in information from through partners and then also directly from the nonprofits. It’s a system that’s broken up into four beacons or topic areas. And what we launched in July with was wth e financing accountability beacon, which is very similar to the ratings that we’ve been doing for the last 20 years through the star rated system In October of this year, through the joining of impact matters to Charity Navigator, we also launched the impact and results speaking, and that is adding a component of oven impact assessment to the ratings Now there is a smaller number that actually have that impact rating today. Coming next will be the culture and community beacon, which is going to be looking at things like how you engage with your constituents or, you know, beneficiary voice. Ah, diversity equity and inclusion with other elements of how the nonprofits engage with their community. And then lastly, we’re gonna be looking at leadership and adaptability, and that’s the fourth kind of real topic area. So it’s trying to give you a much more holistic view of a non profit that you would consider investing in as a donor.

[00:07:16.14] spk_0:
Okay. And these air four beacons, right? If you’re

[00:07:18.69] spk_1:
calling the beacons to stay in the navigation theme.

[00:07:50.14] spk_0:
Oh, very clever. You see, I didn’t even realize. Okay. All right. You’re our compass, Jerry. Navigators are compass. Um, all right. So, Elijah, let’s let’s bring you in, eh? So what? What impact matters has added to charity Navigator’s ratings is the impact and results beacon. Uh, this is notoriously difficulty, but I saw you in one interview Say that you don’t really find it as difficult as you think. It often is considered to be this measuring of impact.

[00:08:43.44] spk_2:
Yeah. Uh huh. I think there are different types of difficulty or their different difficulty could refer to different things. So e think the overall process of saying okay, we’re going to try and figure out take any non profit out there. What? What is its impact? And we try and do that at some degree of scale has proven a pretty difficult problem. We’ve been working on it now for for about five or six years on dhe, we’ve made some significant headway. We’ve, you know, we started with about 10 nonprofits. We got up to about 50 now worked about 1000 eso. There’s been Cem Cem progress there, but it remains a challenging issue on mostly that’s because of the wide sort of diversity

[00:08:44.25] spk_0:
of diversity, of missions. Right, diversity. Education is a lot different than the impact of a soup kitchen is a lot different than the impact of a domestic violence shelter.

[00:09:24.14] spk_2:
Exactly. And they all have different activities as well. And so you could have you have two missions that have two different sets of activities causing them, and and you have to understand the impact very differently. Even though the mission is the same similar you have to activities that have different outcomes, you know, So so s so that I think that that challenge is hard. I think the part that I was referring to that that I think is made out to be harder than it needs to be often is for it individual non profit to invest in understanding its own impact. Ah, nde the it’s not, you know it is a. It is a process that requires effort and attention and so forth. But often the standard is the, you know, something that came to the academic standard of proof, which is a which is a very high bar on dhe. There’s a lot of barriers and and sort of impediments that are placed in front of a non profit thio to go down that path. And what we realized is not for every non profit but for ah you know, a large chunk of them, uh, they can understand their impact in kind of a meaningful way through a much more simple process, much more simple way.

[00:10:10.34] spk_0:
So how have you ratified this? Simplified this so that charity navigator could begin the ratings an impact evaluation. The key thing

[00:10:11.15] spk_2:
that we’ve we’ve sort of hit on is this idea of we call them kind of program types. But this idea that you could look at a kind of, ah collection of activities that an outcome together and determine that they are, uh, that they could be used Thio to create a pretty straightforward calculation to figure out the impact of that organization. So, uh, in other words, like, if we look at, uh, you know a filter program, you know something is distributing clean water filters. We can look at the type of filter from that. We understand the efficacy of the filtration. We understand the longevity of filtration. We could know something about the, you know how many are distributed in a particular area, and we can understand what the coverage rate of clean water was in that area and how quickly it’s growing year over year. All of those data points are fairly easy to get. I mean, they’re not, you know, they’re not. You don’t just walk off the street with them, But most nonprofits are able to get that information, and we can then combine that with a ZX needed estimates from the literature and, you know, academic publications. And, you know, great literature like the U. N. Reports and so forth. Um, in a equation that will come to a cost effectiveness, come to an impact estimate number.

[00:12:30.54] spk_0:
Okay, Right. So and we’ll get to that. That’s part of what you’re alluding to is the counterfactual. What? What would have happened if the organization hadn’t been providing service? Um, so So you’re talking about it. So it’s a mixture of reported data directly from the nonprofits and publicly available data. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times? You wanna be in papers like that? I suppose. How about CBS Market Watch? The Chronicle of Philanthropy? Turn two has the relationships with outlets like these. So when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turn to turn two calls, you turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to New Year, new charity navigator. And

[00:12:30.88] spk_2:
you know I mean the typical kind of the best in class, so to speak, the gold standard is Okay. Let’s run a large, expensive long term trial that looks at specific outcomes for this population. This activity, it

[00:12:45.27] spk_0:
requires a couple of PhDs or at least a couple students a couple of years, right?

[00:12:51.40] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. And so and that’s gonna give. I mean, that’s definitely gonna give the quote better answer. But the trade off, as you say in terms of the staffing of the time of the money and so forth, is usually not worth it. I mean, it’s much better for most nonprofits. Get a number that’s not quite as accurate, but is actually much faster, much cheaper, therefore, much more actionable. Okay, He’s

[00:13:17.34] spk_0:
okay. Um, and your well, let me ask that. I do wanna do a basic question, Michael. How does how do these encompass ratings relate to the star ratings that people I think are very familiar with 0 to 5 stars? Uh, yeah. What’s the relationship there, if any, or how did they coexist?

[00:14:22.94] spk_1:
So right now, they’re co co existing in parallel. And if you think about it, the encompass rating is what in the accountability and or the finance and accountability Beacon is a subset of what goes into the star rating. The star rating has a eligibility criteria which is a bit. It’s a higher bar in that we’re looking at organizations that air over a million dollars in revenue, seven years of tax filing and 40% of the revenue coming from individual donations. Encompass doesn’t require we need three years of continuous data, uh, and file data. So we’re we’ve reduced that to three years. We’re also the only four were only requiring that it be a 9 90 that we used to base that information over time. The goal is to harmonize the two systems and and bring them together so that we don’t have to systems running in parallel. The reality is, encompasses a fast moving growing system. It tze leveraging software development techniques like agile to reiterate relatively quickly with something that’s, you know, good enough or, ah, minimal viable product. And then we’re gonna iterated on time. So a big part of our development process right now is gathering feedback from donors, nonprofits, other users on How is this working for you? And in that spirit, you know, we’ve we ran a survey across about ended up about 1500 responses in the at the end of September, and we’re right now we’re tracking at about 84% satisfied or more than satisfied in terms of how people are receiving the new system.

[00:15:24.94] spk_0:
What’s your goal for the end of 2021 for how many will have the encompass rating? Um, it part of that

[00:15:26.95] spk_1:
is gated right now by E filing. And so the number is going to go up significantly as more and more organizations consistently e file,

[00:15:35.70] spk_0:
you know, because

[00:15:36.68] spk_1:
legislation So it will, you know it’s gonna grow by itself.

[00:15:48.34] spk_0:
Because the organization needs three consecutive years of e filing of the 1990. This

[00:15:48.82] spk_1:
may be getting into too much too much into the weeds way, non

[00:15:55.28] spk_0:
profit radio listeners. Very savvy group we can we

[00:15:57.50] spk_1:
can handle. No. But what’s happening now is that you’re going to start having organizations that may not have a 1990. But they do have an impact impact and results score or one of the other beacons will fill in. And so that’s gonna still result in some scoring and basically information for donors to look at in there giving decision,

[00:16:17.34] spk_0:
Okay, But they will be penalized no for not okay,

[00:16:21.35] spk_1:
Okay, It just won’t be counted. It won’t be factored in.

[00:16:34.14] spk_0:
Okay. All right. Um, Elijah s o. A basic question for you. I feel like we should distinguish between outcomes and impact. I’m not sure that that’s clear in everybody’s minds. I hear them used interchangeably, and I try to be careful not to do that. You make that distinction, please.

[00:18:34.94] spk_2:
Well, it’s a It’s a good question. I will say that we we have got We’ve gotten to the point internally where every word we use, we kind of define it ourselves because of that exact problem that that so much of the so much of the lingo is intermix that if we just assume people know what we’re saying, then then we’re gonna be in trouble. So I don’t think that that that’s just to say, like, I don’t think there is, like, a clear, universal answer the way that we distinguish it. Is that an outcome, you know, refers to, uh, typically, uh, like a change in in something that we care about What? The user. So it might be a change in their salary Or so I mean, I was talking users. I should be talking beneficiaries or participants. Okay. Uh, you know, change in salary, you achievement of a job so forth. Then we want to think of counterfactual outcomes. So those air what would have happened without the program? So, you know, without the program, would they have done the job? That’s the counterfactual outcomes, you know, Maybe without it they wouldn’t. That’s the counterfactual outcome with the program they did. That’s the outcome. And then when we when we take the difference of those those air the net outcome. So those were like, What? What is actually being caused by the program? We actually to get to impact, then take those outcomes and divide them by cost. We think of impact we define impact is being actually out cost, not just outcomes. Um, and that’s like That’s That’s kind of our definition. That’s not a, you know, ah, universal definition. I think the reason we we settled on it is because you know, the notion of outcomes without cost is is a little meaningless. It’s it’s difficult, you know. Even organization said we save five years, five lives last year that could be a large number of small number. I mean, if it’s a if it’s a community health center. That’s a large number. If it’s the Red Cross, I don’t know. I mean, that’s that’s Z. You know, there’s been a couple billion a year, so we have to understand, you know, we have to add costs of that equation to really understand what the outcomes mean. Okay. All right.

[00:18:52.14] spk_0:
Well, again, you know, you guys spend your days thinking about this. Uh, e think the more common understanding is that but it is not to supplant what you just described. I’m just saying, You know, I think most people understand that is like using your water filtration example. The outcome would be we distributed 150,000 water filters. But the impact would be lives saved or cholera avoided, or other insect born what waterborne diseases avoided or something like that?

[00:19:57.84] spk_2:
Yeah. I mean, that’s a That’s an interesting point. I mean, I think that a lot of I think you’re writing often that the distinction, you know, is between the sort of, you know, to two factors. One is like the tempo temporal ity of it is that, like a non upstream or downstream out outcome like that happened right away to happen later and also like the significance Is that something we really care about or we care Onley instrumentally about we We sometimes use the term or often use the term intermediate and final outcomes Thio to distinguish between those two. Um, or we use the term proxy to say that it’s actually it shows that the outcomes moving, but not the actual. But all of this again is like it Z There’s never gonna be in agreement, right? Like, way put the flag in the sand of like what we’re calling things that were internally consistent. But we recognize that that’s that’s just

[00:20:07.34] spk_0:
us. Okay, Okay. Alright. Aggression, impact. Versace’s a sort of a

[00:20:12.42] spk_2:
lot of confusion, I think because people use the same term but mean different things and don’t kind of get to the point of of that exact clarification that you ask for. I

[00:20:33.04] spk_0:
think it’s definitely true. Yeah, yeah. Um, all right, so there’s a lot of social science methodology at the heart of this at the heart of these things. Impact rating. Can you Can you say what we’ve what? We’ve what you’ve transported from social science research methods, thio, non profit impact evaluation readings.

[00:21:13.34] spk_2:
Yeah. I mean, I think that at a fundamental level, we’re following, you know, the, uh you know, the science of causal inference. Right? So how do we understand that A actually causes B? Ah nde? And there’s been, you know, a lot of work in the academic world over last couple 100 years to build both the theory and the methods of doing that on dhe largely. You know, there’s a lot of different pieces of that, but like one of the major pieces that that kind of you know, crops up again and again Is this question of the counterfactual right? Especially what would have happened? Um, had we not intervened had, you know, had had this ruler stayed in power for that? I mean, anything that happens in the world, we could say, Well, what would have happened if that didn’t happen on dhe? Sometimes that’s more of an academic exercise. But when it comes to social programs, it turns out to be a very important one because we’re making choices over shared resource is social resource is of some sort. We’re making a choice to do something with those to try and solve a problem we could have done something else. And in the future, we’re gonna have the choice. Usually Thio do one or the other again. A

[00:22:11.24] spk_0:
question of how much does the charity deserve credit for? Exactly. And and And also, I mean, how much this would have happened on its own. And I think

[00:22:12.39] spk_2:
that partially it’s it’s about, you know, that that framing. And it’s also about from the non profit perspective. Okay, I did this the last year. Should I do it for the next year, You know, or should I Do you know plan B? It’s that type of decision making, and so so a sign. I mean, the social sciences have built a kind of a large edifice of theory and data and and best practices around how to do that. We have basically, like, picked some of the key points and intentionally ignored from the other points in order to build something that’s sort of usable within the nonprofit world, which is very different than the academic world. Um

[00:22:51.80] spk_0:
oh, yeah, Well, yeah, the academic world is the, uh, longitudinal sir study that we’re talking about a few minutes ago. Yeah, all right. And and so

[00:23:01.82] spk_2:
I mean, I will say so. There are some non profits out there that are doing really high quality academic studies, often in partnerships with academic institutions. And that’s been a huge explosion of the last couple decades. But that’s still like the 0.1%. I mean, it’s a small fraction. It’s important for action, but it’s a small

[00:23:41.44] spk_0:
um yeah, on those air. Not our listeners. Our listeners air small and mid sized shops. You know, they’re they’re probably not affiliated with the academic institution. They might be one themselves, but not doing the kind of research we’re talking about. Um, so we try to keep it. Really? Um, so now I guess I think this is better for you, Michael. Uh, eso the impact of results. Score is still in beta. Is that right?

[00:23:47.64] spk_1:
It’s It’s already live. No, it’s You know, technically, this with encompasses a beta system, as as we build out the beacons. But we have What’s the number of larger? The total encompass ITT’s about 6 700 right now.

[00:24:05.74] spk_2:
Yeah. We have 700 on way, have 700 on the compass profiles, and then about 300 on the, um seeing 2.1 that are not part of the score there. Just

[00:24:32.94] spk_0:
informational. Okay. All right. So do they have to be, um, direct service organizations? Still is that I saw three criteria direct service and and receiving private charitable contributions. Is that still the criteria for, uh, getting an impact? The results score that your your direct and your service.

[00:25:20.64] spk_2:
Yeah. Yes, that that is. And I think we’re, uh you know, the type of analysis that we dio just doesn’t work for groups that are doing things like advocacy that that we don’t have. I mean, again, we talk about social science, the causal inference, tools. They break down with a with a program like advocacy because, you know, we it’s a single shot the, you know, three of changes longer and so forth. Um, so we’re really limiting it to that, because that’s what we think that we can say something meaningful about with the current system. There’s a perpetual desire, and like I’ve had, I’ve been in a conversation every two months for the last six years, where it’s come up about doing advocacy. We definitely want to do it. You know, I will say that we’ve said that for every two months for for six years. I think that we don’t have a good way of doing that. And not to say we never will. But we haven’t figured out a way that does it in a way that’s kind of fair and meaningful.

[00:25:39.20] spk_0:
Okay, well, you get there. I mean, this is E. I’m feel like I’m talking to the musk’s off charity evaluation impact impact.

[00:25:48.45] spk_2:
I also planned to be 100 billion here also. This. Yeah.

[00:26:10.24] spk_0:
All right. Well, if I was, if I could buy stock and Charity Navigator, I probably would, because i e I wish I had bought Tesla at 200. You know, pre split. Um, so So you know, I understand it’s something you’ll get to, but I just want to make it clear that, like education is not is not Doesn’t fall within your definition of of service, because the beneficiaries they’re supposed to be paying little or nothing for the service that they’re getting. And education is a tuition model. So education doesn’t fit yet either

[00:27:08.09] spk_2:
some of it doesn’t. Some of it doesn’t way have a basically we’re looking at It’s okay. If the participants based some, we just don’t want them to be. We don’t want it to be mostly a service that is like essentially mirroring a for profit service, but with kind of a non profit structure in terms of how you know how the money flows. So we have done like scholarship programs that are, you know, or their interventions like de worming that actually do increase educational outcomes we would do. But like what we won’t necessarily do at this point is something like a like a private school. Um, you know, we may do the scholarship program of the private school if that was a separate entity and doable, but we wouldn’t do sort of the main. But we would do, for instance, like a high performing charter.

[00:29:21.84] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. I am always optimistic at the beginning of a new year. I can’t help it. Of course, last year’s optimism was misplaced. Nobody is 100% s O. That one didn’t work out so well, but I’m still optimistic. I can’t help it. At the end of the recession, I was still optimistic the year after, So I am optimistic about 2021 as I mentioned earlier at the open. Hope it was a time for reflection for you. I know it is for me. I just think good things are gonna happen. Um, I’m launching plan to giving accelerator. We’ve got our first class for that excellent and non profit radio feeling feeling, you know, less constrained now. Yes, it’s been since. I think, since August, I’ve been doing these outside the studio and deviating from the district one hour format. It’s not necessary. It’s not necessary. So, like, today’s show is about gonna be roughly 45 minutes or so, Um, so feeling a little freer about non profit radio? The guests are still awesome. You know, the hostess still lackluster. You know, the core principles don’t change. We’re not not fooling with those things that folks rely on. What would you call something that you rely on on those, uh, foundations? Those bedrocks of non profit radio? Those those don’t change but a little tinkering, you know, the time doesn’t have to be an hour. I realized it could be we could be having our non profit radios. So don’t don’t think that long format is being abandoned. It’s not. But as I said, Just feeling a little less constrained. And how about you? How about you for 2021? Optimistic. I hope. I hope that is. Tony. Take two. I’m optimistic. What can I say? Let us return to New Year. New Charity Navigator with Michael Thatcher and Elijah Goldberg.

[00:29:47.04] spk_1:
It’s worth noting in the star system that z similarly been applied that we tuition based schools. We haven’t been rating where we stopped rating, and then we work. We did continue rating those that were like the Harlem Children’s Zone or other schools that were fully subsidized by their donors. And there was not. Tuition was not an element.

[00:30:10.24] spk_0:
Okay, so it’s still still a possibility. Okay, um, So before we get to the nuts and bolts of how nonprofits get to the next level in Charity Navigator, based on whatever they are now, what else do either one of you want us to know about about encompass or impact and results?

[00:31:21.14] spk_1:
The one thing I’d add is, Is this idea of, you know, particularly you have the impact discussion. It’s It’s oftentimes described in the element of the the social change. One is seeking to to arrive at and charity Navigator really is looking at, and that would be the result of program program effectiveness of a non profit and charity Navigator’s ratings have always, you know, over the years been looking at the non profit as an entity and less the less the programs, particularly given the star rating, which was looking at the finances and then the accountability and transparency. And so there’s an element of that where we’re trying to evaluate, and what encompasses trying to do is give you an impression of how is this organization as a potentially impact making machine? But not, you know, the impact is a key part of that, and we clearly that’s why were we make gifts to charities into the non profit. But it’s also you want to know that you have a strong organization that’s gonna grow, evolve and learn and continue to do better as it goes forward. So it’s more. It’s a progressive system that’s really trying to help move folks to an idea of investment in an entity that is making impact.

[00:31:54.44] spk_0:
Do we have any proof that knowledge of impact changes donor donor outcomes, donor behaviors? I mean, it’s it’s intuitive, but do we know that this enhanced knowledge changes donor giving decisions?

[00:31:58.04] spk_2:
I mean, I think that that’s that would be be a topic for like, a fairly dry I’m interesting chapter book. There’s a lot, a lot there, Thank you.

[00:32:07.78] spk_0:
Well, you’re stuck with a lackluster host. I didn’t think the question was bad. Book. The book may be dull, but my question was decent.

[00:33:47.41] spk_2:
E. I think it’s the reason why it is just because it’s so There’s no there’s no, like, really good crisp answer to that. That’s that. I mean, it’s a very important question. We just don’t quite have the answer. I mean, there have been probably, at this point, about a dozen, you know, depending on how you count studies have been done over the last five or 10 years. That that a probe, that question, um, you know, a handful of our data, often with other other data. It’s a pretty mixed bag, like we’ve seen results that show that presenting impact information really does boost donor behavior pretty significantly. There have been other findings that have found that it has little effect. It seems that matter a lot about framing, you know, that’s a level, I will say that the major donor level, it’s a It’s a somewhat of a clear split. Basically, there’s sort of two camps. There’s the three camps. There’s like we don’t ask anything about impact. There’s the We want you to say something about impact in your grant application. But does that. And then there’s the camp that takes it very seriously. On Dhe, that camp is still pretty small, but they do command, you know, substantial resource is it’s like give well on its donor base. Robin Hood Foundation malago Foundation groups like that on DSO. There is like a pretty hefty sort of institutional a group of donors there. Uh, so that’s the ZX like, kind of a broad rose, but the bottom line is, it’s a pretty murky, messy answer.

[00:34:29.44] spk_1:
But the other data point I could give you tony more from sort of the general public, which has been traditionally charity Navigator’s audience, and the donor base is it’s probably the most demanded thing. We want to see impact in our donor surveys, but how that gets articulated in their actual behavior. It’s harder to tell right so that we have less good data on. We know they’re asking for it, but they’re also asking for low overhead ratios, right? And so you have this kind of conflicting, um, Senate demands in many cases, and but being able to show it to be able to show it with some form of clarity, I think would really help people get their minds around it. You know, we spent a lot of time just defining it in this call. Eso That’s part of the problem,

[00:34:43.44] spk_0:
right? Right now, you just mentioned the overhead ratio. Is that still? Is that still out there? Is that still people still looking for 95% to go toe program? And they’re considering overhead and investment? Ah, bad thing

[00:34:58.84] spk_1:
it’s It’s probably the most you know, particularly when you know, if I get into, you know, talking to mainstream media or you know that that’s the first question that asked, You know, you want to know that all your money is going to program, so unfortunately, it’s still it’s a very prevalent question in a very prevalent focus.

[00:35:32.74] spk_0:
Okay, non profit radio has a little part in that history I had the three CEOs on the eso is Ken Berger from charity Navigator, uh, Jacob from Guidestar. And gentlemen, who is our Taylor? Thank you very much from the Better Business Bureau. Wise giving alliance. So I had the three of them on together when they signed the letter that said, Stop doing T the American public. Stop doing what we suggested you do on DSS. Stopped looking for 97% program because, you know, there could be it could be a very legitimate I mean, overhead is important. Overhead is technology and salaries and CEOs and program people and and infrastructure and security and accountants building maintenance And

[00:36:05.81] spk_2:
what accountants? Who’s gonna tell you how much money you’re setting?

[00:36:33.53] spk_0:
Accountants? You know, it could be investment in a long term program that reward us for five years, so Okay, well, whenever it comes up, I get on a soapbox. But I we tried, you know, we, uh, we had Well, of course, we’re talking to non profit. So the nonprofits understood that all along, but we did have the three CEOs on for a little bit of a mea culpa. Uh huh. Thio when they signed the letter saying, Stop doing this. Stop looking only at overhead. You

[00:36:38.75] spk_1:
know historic that there was the second letter that got sent out. I don’t know if you’re aware of that, because that first letter went out to the donors to the to the public. And then the second letter went out about a year and a half later, saying to the non profit, You got to report on your impact.

[00:36:53.83] spk_0:
Yeah. This is the first letter that went to the American public. It wasn’t that literally, but yeah, yeah,

[00:37:01.87] spk_1:
Tell us what you did.

[00:37:44.03] spk_0:
Yeah, Still hypocrisy there. Uh, or these some dissonance. All right. Um, okay, So if we’re not, I assume this is for you, Michael. If we’re charity, that’s not rated at all non profit. I’m sorry. It was not rated by non profit radio was what I was about to say. Not rated it all by charity Navigator. Because the world revolves around this show. And me, you know, it’s center of the universe is all your all your your your careers, to this point of driven you to this thing. This pinnacle, this zenith, I I know it because I because that’s it. I just know that that’s exists. It’s just assumption. It’s just a known, so I I know it’s just a given. Its it’s not even, uh, there’s no counterfactual. Can’t be argued. So any case, um, if our non profit is not at all evaluated, we’re not even on the charity navigator radar. How did we just get to that level?

[00:39:10.92] spk_1:
So the simplest is you gotta e file and that soon going to be law that that will be your only way of filing that Just get your 9 90 into the system. Once we have three years worth of 19 nineties, we will. We will have enough information to to issue of some form of a rating. The other thing is, if you’re a registered registered 501 C three charity, we already have you in our database. So the ways of getting additional information in there are to submit information to guide. Start now candid, particularly looking at things like the There is how we listen. Optional component of the GuideStar profile that is going to be in part, something we use for the constituent voice evaluation that’s going to be going live in, probably in March of 2021. So you want to get your data into the different data platforms. We’re also working on a portal right now that will allow charities to submit information to us directly. So that will be another means on dhe that is in process. Right now, it’s not built. Um, the other thing is, um, yeah, make yourself known to the to the different portals that collect information. That’s the best way of getting your information other than just your 9 90 information into the hands of evaluators like ourselves.

[00:40:17.81] spk_0:
Time for our last break dot drives relationships, not with journalists. Now we’re talking about relationships with prospects. Your challenge is engaging prospects so they become engaged donors. If you want to move the needle on your fundraising relationships, look at dot drives. The simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool Move folks from prospect to donor, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. We’ve got a butt cheek, more time for New Year new charity navigator, and if we want to go to the next level now, if we want, uh, if we want a encompass rating, how do we get to there? So that will

[00:40:20.31] spk_1:
get you when I was just speaking to will get you the information that would get your finance and accountability

[00:40:25.44] spk_0:
school financing account. But right, the 33 consecutive years. Okay, if you wanna go broader with the other beacons,

[00:40:31.51] spk_1:
do you want to speak to that with the what we’re doing in the forgetting?

[00:40:59.01] spk_2:
So for impact, we we have, ah, sort of, ah, early version of the portal that zone impact cherry navigator dot or GE It will eventually grow into the broader portal that Michael talked about, but that that’s the place to start. If you you know, if the non profit goes there and goes to the process, will take a look at that data. Uh, we’re still, you know, from from our perspective, we were doing a lot of work right now to invest in sort of as efficient a system as possible for rating. Um, the problem with impact rating that we’ve struggled with for our entire existence is that it could be very time intensive. Andi, even if even as we kind of cut down the time intensive ity as we try and increase the scale of ratings and kind of keep our team not. Not too much larger, uh, than you know it. It fast becomes impossibility. So that’s what we’re hoping to do with the portal. And, you know, well, you know, usually goes now, impact on trade navigated a torque. Either they’ll they’ll have, you know they’ll qualify for rating now, more likely, given where our methodology is, we’ll ask them questions and we’ll get back to them soon. Once we have kind of mawr coverage for different types of programs, I can talk a little bit more about that. That’s a little bit of nuance,

[00:42:22.50] spk_0:
but so the goal is whole number. Exponential growth. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah, at least a square. Okay. Uh huh. And all right, so And the the site again is impact charitynavigator dot or ge. Right. And you can submit data there. Okay. Okay. All right. You leave it there. What do you think? I would just add

[00:43:44.20] spk_2:
one thing, you know, that I was gonna mention before, but it’s a little bit of a tangent. I think it’s always worth mentioning is one of things that we’ve found in our work, which was, I think, actually fairly surprising. Kind of given our Prior Tze when we really started this back in the day. But most groups that we that have gone through this process we found have actually been cost effective on many of them have been have been highly cost effective. So of the of the about, you know, you know, out of 100% about 87% of the group’s we’ve worked with have have, you know, have been sort of been determined to be cost effective or highly cost effective. I think that’s just an important message to share kind of Ford on profits in general. Because, you know, there’s there’s, ah, there’s often, uh, uh huh you know, a perception or ah kind of Ah, a sort of, ah assumption among the public that non profit, they’re not efficient, that that the private sector, the free markets are efficient, non profit, they’re inefficient. Sure, they’re doing good things, but we should be We should be kind of concerned about how they do them on the data shows. That’s that’s really not the case. They there pretty good at achieving, you know, unless unless you as a donor, choosing very, very poorly about which non profit you’re giving, Thio odds are the non profit you’re giving to is pretty effective. It

[00:43:44.27] spk_0:
sounds like the way I buy stocks. Buy high sell, buy high, sell low. That’s my If you look at my portfolio, you’ll see, uh, you see that lesson, uh, come to fruition? Um Oh, and since I’m talking to data scientist, I want to correct myself. So the objective is not necessarily whole number. Exponential growth, but exponential growth greater than one?

[00:44:08.09] spk_2:
Yeah, we’re looking for, like, adding in order. Yeah. I’m sorry. We’re looking at an order of magnitude at another zero. Okay.

[00:44:13.79] spk_0:
Okay. All right. Michael Thatcher leads Charity Navigator, charity navigators at charitynavigator dot or GE and Michael’s at M. Thatcher. Elijah leads the development of charity Navigator’s impact ratings. He’s at Elijah Goldberg, Michael and Elijah. Thanks very much. Pleasure.

[00:44:30.99] spk_2:
Thanks so much for being on

[00:45:28.49] spk_0:
next week. P p p. Two. It’s the paycheck protection program reduction with who else? Jean Takagi. Naturally, if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c O and by dot drives Prospect to donor Simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month. Ah, creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots. Tony, thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, be with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for July 1, 2016: Purpose Driven Branding & GuideStar Platinum

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

I love our sponsor!

Do you want to find more prospects & raise more money? Pursuant is a full-service fundraising agency, leveraging data & technology.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Listen Live or Archive:


My Guests:

Laura Ferry: Purpose Driven Branding

You need to be deliberate in the partners you select when you venture into co-branding. Laura Ferry helps you package yourself to potential partners; find the right ones; and, select the relationship that makes the most sense for your objectives. Laura is the founder of Good Company.



Eva Nico: GuideStar Platinum

Eva Nico, GuideStar’s lead on nonprofit strategy and evaluation, walks you through their new platinum level and how to get there. Your nonprofit probably has a GuideStar profile, and if you haven’t contributed to it, it looks bad. Whichever level you’re at, Eva will help you out.


Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

You’re on the air and on target as I delve into the big issues facing your nonprofit—and your career.

If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

View Full Transcript

Transcript for 296_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20160701.mp3

Processed on: 2018-11-11T23:35:50.022Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2016…07…296_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20160701.mp3.69600913.json
Path to text: transcripts/2016/07/296_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20160701.txt

Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, we have a listener of the week kapin coal from the san francisco bay area she’s at non-profit chapin and she tweeted, quote, catching up on last month’s tony martignetti non-profit radio and i here at non-profit meg is listener of the week congrats girl. Well, when you shout out a listener, the weak you become one if you are the first to do it and that’s what shape? And did nobody’s ever done that before? And she used the hashtag non-profit radio, which i am always grateful for. So shape and cole, congratulations are non-profit radio listener of the week and i’m glad you’re with me. I come down with bronco candid i assists if i caught wind of the idea that you missed today’s show purpose driven branding, you need to be deliberate in the partners you select when you venture into co-branding laura ferry helps you package yourself to potential partners, find the right ones and select the relationship that makes the most sense for your objectives. Laura is the founder of goodcompany and guide star platinum even nico guide stars lead on non-profit strategy and evaluation walks you through their new platinum level and how to get there. You’re non-profit probably has a guide star profile already, and if you haven’t contributed to it, it looks bad whichever level your app even we’ll help you out on tony’s. Take two fund-raising fundamentals we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant. Dot com my pleasure to welcome laura ferry to the show. She is the founder of high low laura. Let me give you a formal introduction, please. Founder of goodcompany, a brand citizenship consultancy. She has over fifteen years of marketing strategy and alliance experience. And her clients include partnership for a healthier america, hewlett packard, pbs kids, petsmart charities and national public radio. They’re at goodcompany strategies. Dot com laura faerie. Welcome, paul. Hi. Great to be here, tony. Okay. Oh, hi. You’re ready now? Yeah. Okay. Because we’re on your on. All right. Okay. Um, let’s start at the like there’s. A basic level of you know, co-branding and strategies with partners. And what? What do you feel that non-profits are not? Getting quite right about this field, i think one of the most important things about bringing a non-profit and a corporate culture together in a partnership is to really try to understand each other’s position coming into it. I think one of the biggest challenges is really seeing that other side and trying to bring those two together and integrated effort. So one of the key things for making that happen, mr, really come to the table understanding what your organization brings to the martin our ship on how that aligns with okay, okay, and we’re going to we’re going to get to that because that isn’t you’re right, that’s a very important part. What what do you bring? What? What are the what are the, the potential partners? And most most often, i don’t know that always companies, but most often their companies. What? What are the company’s looking for? The corporate partners are you are usually looking for somebody some organization to align with that has similar values brand values, it’s the corporation has selected a cause that they want there, corporation or brand to be about that is usually the first step toward them identifying a non-profit partner, that fits their goals. Ok, okay. No, please go ahead. Continue. I was going to say, and they also are looking for non-profit partners who have that mindset of plenty together. A sortie xero relationship that benefits both parties. You mentioned, i think the phrase brand value and at the outset, i don’t wantto don’t wantto make universe cerini but we have jargon jail in-kind martin and tony martignetti non-profit radio, but we’re just getting started, so i’ll, you know ah, light sentence. But but and plus, just some of these phrases are unfamiliar to people in non-profits help us understand what brand value what does that mean or whatever? Maybe maybe through examples. What are examples or what does that mean? I think the best way to think about that is the trumpet to use the term brand citizenship and what corporations were trying to dio or how they benefit from working to do things that support social impact. And there it is. But really it’s like putting a halo on a corporate brand and giving it a social profits selves, it helps them engaged at the consumer level in a meaningful way. That address is on an empathetic way what the consumer is is concerned about in the world. So that’s, how causes come together with corporations and corporations create brands that are good citizens in the marketplace? Okay, i can’t like that that halo analogies uh, yeah, cool, alright, i mean, not that they’re not that they’re bad to start and i need a halo, but no, they’re they’re they’re not well, that’s. Why? I’m not sure that sainted i think saint, did you have a nimbus around you? But a halo for halo is for angels, right? And the nimbus is i think, for saints, so so we’re not putting, you know, to point your gear brand in the direction of of giving it a purpose to solve. The social problem is really relevant today because today’s consumer, similar ennio consumer in particular, is looking for corporations to solve business problems in a way that they no longer really necessarily have faith that the government can d’oh that’s where all of this conversation around france being good citizens has emerged hard to imagine a loss of faith in government. Yeah, just can’t conceive of that. All right? How about some examples whether they’re big famous? Ones or or smaller ones, you know, i mean, because our audience is small and midsize non-profit so it doesn’t have to be a, you know, big famous one, but sametz samples before we take our first break in a couple minutes. Yeah, i think what your switch you’re seeing out there is brand associating themselves with causes like, uh, that that emerged from, like starbucks is a great example starbucks has hyre a lot of initiatives that our focus on solving social problems, everything from making sure their employees have college degrees, too. I’m starting a dialogue at the register on talking about it’s, just like race, which howard schultz, john give it, give it, give a try and actually got a lot of flack for it, but he did try to start a conversation around a really relevant special topic on dh now starbucks is also taking its surplus of food supply and donating it at the end of every day. All of those acts are all of those programs that they’ve developed help them put that halo on their bread and have and create that brand feeling about starbucks that day that they care about what the rest of us care about howard schultz is ceo of starbucks. Yes, okay, okay, that’s, a that’s, a good example to go out on, we’re going to take our break, and when we come back you and i’ll keep talking about purpose driven branding, stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I feel like doing live listener love right now we got it, we got to send the live love to everyone who is throughout the country throughout the world. We know we get listeners from routinely from asia on dh germany, ups and mexico very often. So live listener love, of course, to was in the u s listening friday one p m eastern, but sending that live listener love international as well. You know who you are live listeners podcast pleasantries, that’s where the over ten thousand are listening in the time shift whatever device in time and activity you’re in the midst of while you’re listening i’m glad you’re with us pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections cannot continue without sending the affections to our am and fm listeners throughout the country. Whatever day of the week. Whatever time your station has scheduled us, i am glad you’re with us. I know somewhere, even on weekends, affections to our many am and fm affiliate listeners throughout the country. Okay, laura ferry, thank you for indulging me while i, uh, send live. Listen, love. Podcast pleasantries and affiliate affection is very important to do. Um, okay, well, reassure me, please, and us that this is not on ly for big organizations and international corporations to come together, but we could do this on a small level local level as well, right? Yes, of course she could. And one of them is the most amazing thing is a small business is known for it philantech please. So there you could really approach these partnerships at a local level. They’re small non-profit using the same steps toward really, you know, developing an effective partnership that really helps promote your mission and engage people in that cause while at the same time helping that local business got from those ability for being a good community, citizens and, of course, on the local level, smaller organizations have that advantage. You know, you may be seeing potential partners at events in your community chamber of commerce, which a lot of non-profits belong to, you know, you’re you’re meeting potential partners probably a lot more often than than big scale non-profits like you’re rubbing shoulders with them, you know, often routinely. Okay, so let’s go where you wanted to go. Because this is important. On what? Identifying what it is you bring to the table to help your potential corporate partner maximize that brand value. Look at me being old jargon e l love this it’s great it’s. Great. So i think i like just throw some questions out for your audience to think about that. You know how before you approach a partner, these air the casings to think about how can your non-profit help foster that brand citizenship or bring that brand halo to that corporate partner and fearsome test? Look for ways that that your mission aligns with the cause that that corporation cares about even goes far is being doing a research ahead of time, looking at their corporate website, trying to understand what they may already be doing in the corporate social responsibility area and seeing if you’re a good fit. Okay, now and in terms of that, laura, could we look to see who they may have partnered with in the past? That may be a related mission. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I don’t want you to go through the list too fast because i may have some questions for you. Okay. Okay. So, uh another really key factor, and developing any partnership is to make sure that you have support across the organization. So once you found and identified that partner, make sure that that they’re all of their resources are also bringing, uh, their resources to the table. So you really want to put in all hands on deck partnership and know that you have, you know, a little support on both sides of the partnership to really have the most effective intact together. Yeah, so is this something that on the non-profit side, the board should be apprised of right? And maybe, i don’t know, maybe even approve. Absolutely. I don’t really know any non-profits who wouldn’t take a big strategic partnership and have the board weigh in on it. So absolutely. Do you want to see these? Once we’ve identified our partner, is there a written agreement between the parties? Yes, there usually is. And and that could be a non disclosure. That could be a contract between the two organizations. But you’re usually sharing brands which are assets that you have to protect legally at those people, uh, are aware of that. So you want to be sure you have an agreement in place that, uh, that legal allows you to share brands and also gives you the option of reviewing and approving how your brand is being used on the other side of the partners? Yes, yes. Excellent. Good. Brand management is really important. Okay. Okay. Uh, all right. Go ahead. What else? Ah, in terms of the value we bring to the corporate partner hey, there’s, this isn’t always the case with all partnerships. That kind of depends on what kind of relationship we’re trying to build. But if you could engage that corporations, employees in your efforts to support whatever the campaign, you’re putting together with corporations or any kind of the program that just lends itself to engaging employees that’s a really great asset to your charity, because that could be, you know, for a small company, hundreds of new brand advocates for you as a non-profit and it can also lead to along a longer term relationship with that corporation because those folks actually become your supporters is part of your campaign. I’m thinking, like, top my heads, our mentor possibilities, but it really could be any could be any volunteer activity, right? That sure. Okay, you have any examining going on? Yes, i do. And one of the really wonderful non-profits i work with this kaboom, which is an organization that builds playgrounds across the country they built over sixteen thousand. So far on that is, uh, a, uh non-profit that typically it’s not there. Only it’s like the only vision for the cause of play, but they typically bring in corporate employees to come actually do those playground, though. So if god carmax, for example, is one of their big sponsors. So if there’s a local playground build near carmax locations, carmax employees actually go out to that site. And participate in the playground built. So it brings a lot of team building. Is it feeling good about the company? He worked for? It’s really? On exciting and meaningful, an authentic way to engage your employees and volunteering and coming together at a company. Excellent. Now this would have would feed what you said earlier about millennials. And if it’s a it’s, a company that has a lot of young employees, they’re they’re looking to blend their their professional life with social change work, right? Yes, absolutely they’re also looking for opportunities to connect socially, so by bringing them together are providing them with access to volunteer opportunities. They have a chance to meet new people and share in an active there that they can feel really good about doing together. So we do the playground build all day, and then we meet for beers after that’s ideal, right? Exactly. Ok, yeah, exactly, ok s o that’s called the the employee engagement so that’s i’m just i’m just i’m just amplifying. It was reiterating what you said but valuable to think through how employees could help your cause and the value that that brings to the to the company. In terms of engagement and company spirit, maybe i mean some company he comes. Some companies even have a requirement right for so many service hours, i guess per year or something like that? Yes. That’s their true. Okay. Excellent. All right. The employee engagement. All right, what else? What else you got? I think one of the things that you need to remember to is that alright, relationships require work. So the best ones really flourished when both parties begin with shared common interest singles and really bring that value together to the table and get really creative about what it is you want to do together. We mentioned a playground, bill that’s. One option. But could you also tie that teo retail promotion? Where, you know, at the register, you ask customers to donate a percentage of their transaction? Tio just to the kaboom cause todo playground and in our local communities, those are great ways not only to engage on the employee’s side, but also at the consumer level. You’re connecting there as well. Okay, you got any other? I love stories. And i some of the feedback i get from listeners to is that they love. Stories to any other, any others examples doesn’t have to be of the volunteer. I think a lot of really interesting things happening with designers who are developing, uh, fashion lines and products to support causes that they care deeply about you may recently have seen tommy hilfiger launched a line with a non-profit called runway of dreams to design an apparel line for learning disabled kids, so they he’s actually created a very stylish line. That’s easy, tio, pick off and get on so that’s one example, lady gaga and elton john just launched a product ah called love bravery at macy’s that is really interesting and showing some real promise for supporting both of their independent foundations. Um, there’s also social enterprises emerging everywhere, which typically a lost non-profit partnership uh, brands like tom’s where buy one give one are now partnering with coffee companies and a whole range of ah causes that are out there in the field helping in developing countries. Ah, gymboree and kapin kaboom is another example of a baboon partnership that i’m really excited about is cook doing parted with gymboree than on and gymboree launched a line of play where it last year called hop and roll and a percentage of of all of the apparel line that was sold to supporting kaboom cause, uh, employees and all the stores competed on the one who the store who raised the most funding for, um for by selling product to consumers actually won a local playground bills. So it was really well integrated program that involved engaging both employees and consumers, and we’ll do good campaign. Excellent. So so what? The higher level, this this clearly even product development is possible. You you’ve given a couple examples of where special products were developed. Okay now, again, small and midsize non-profits out. They may not get that far, but there still is. They’re still great potential for doing this on on a smaller scale. Sure. And, you know, there are local non-profits that further causes that are being supported by local business all the time. Alex’s lemonade stands are happening everywhere. So there are local restaurant night where percentage of that night sales that stone into a local cause. Uh, so those airways to engage through retail, whether they be restaurants or, you know, apparel stores, local grocery to support the cause is that that local communities? Yes. Excellent car washers. I mean, we know whatever whatever is in your community on dh. Yeah, i think you’ve just touched on the point that if there’s already some relationship between you, you know, maybe they’re just giving twenty five hundred dollars to your and you will run, walk or something like that or, you know, they’re sponsoring you in some other way. Maybe, you know, leveraging that existing relationship and approaching the company about going deeper. Yes. That’s that’s a great way to think about it. In fact, i’ll go out on a limb here and say, i think there have been in charity work happening at the local level, two small non-profits and local businesses for a really long time and corporate brands that are now just catching on to engaging at the local level through store retail stores in campaign. So i do. I do agree with you. I think a lot of really exciting things can happen at the local level. And you can actually work that backwards. Now. Goto the corporate side too. Support your non-profit on a national basis. Yeah. Cool. Now, if laura, if we want to get this started? I mean, isat do we need to go in with fancy, you know, a fancy presentation the first time? Or is it really just a conversation the first time to sort of explore? I think it’s important to go in there, having done your research and really understanding who that company is and what they care about most and what they’re trying to achieve by participating in a collaboration with a non-profit on dh and if you can show that where you’ve connected the dots before you go in there and tell that story in that meeting, how you deliver it is is not as important as the story you tell. So, you know, i like to have power point that some people are better it just articulating, um, you know, the connections that they’re saying and they’re there, what they see is a value and bringing these two organizations together verbally so there’s really no magic answer. It surely just depends on what you’re comfortable with. All right? Long story. Good. All right. Um, i took a little off track and mohr mohr for ah, showing value to the potential corporate partner. What those questions to think through i think you want to, uh, talk through what kind of first take a look at your organization and what you khun gray in terms of marketing resources to support a campaign that could be anything from interesting promotions and campaigns that you go that you have going on or have plans for and how that company can integrate into that. That planning, uh, if you have basic marketing tools in place and you’ll reach a lot of people, tell that corporation all about it because that’s that’s an audience that’s really going toe the thrill that corporation is supporting because they care about that would include your social media. Your newsletter, your website, just really what ways can you give visibility to the partnership from a marketing and communications standpoint? And one of those numbers look like they’re lower numbers and they’re not going to blow a big corporation away. That’s okay, just talk about the resources that you do have and on the investment that you’re willing to make, too, to share that corporations part of the partnership to your stakeholders in your community and, you know, are there ways to connect employees like we talked about? Really? Looking at all the way around the scope of possibility for bringing the organization’s together. And i think that’s that’s really what you want to have in your story and your pitch, too a corporate partner for a small business, you can use the same principles that yeah, absolutely you yeah, and and you want to go in confidently because you you do have the you do have assets, you know, you mentioned, like, all the social media properties and and your own brand value and your dedicated volunteers, you know, you do have networks and assets that you, khun bring to the relationship. You want to be confident about this. This is not a humble ask, right? Okay, i guess you agree. Okay, ok, cool. We have just like a minute and a half left. What? What? What have we not talked about or what do you wish? I’d asked that i haven’t. Please one of the most marks, most remarkable statistics that i’ve seen that i’m trying to build on right now. And i’m heading tto licensing expo next week in las vegas to talkto companies about working with my non-profit clients no license their brands to consumer. Product program, because i think there is an opportunity, tio cell cause branded products, uh, not all of them fit, but quite a few of them do, and and i’d like to see that development and really that’s, based on some cohen research that came out that says that eighty seven percent of consumers latto products associated with the cause over the left twelve months that’s, a khan twenty fifteen research data points that is a really strong one, so it is an opportunity, i think, to make a connection at retail. So how can you develop more product, not just promotions, but products that actually can activate? I thought about your mission in people’s homes and in their daily lives through product, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much, laura. Thank you, thank you, laura faerie, founder of goodcompany. There goodcompany strategies. Dot com. Guidestar platinum with even nico is coming up first. Pursuant velocity is one of their online tools. Why do you need it? You don’t, you could keep on managing your fund-raising the same way you do now and keep on expecting different results, and you will prove yourself insane. Or i suggest you can keep your fundraisers on target by prioritizing activities, measuring their time against goal, making smart decisions about what to do each day and each week, and following up on time with donors and potential donors, tracking milestones with potential donors. And, of course, all the tools and the dashboard that go along with that all in velocity. It was created to help pursuant fund-raising consultants manage their client campaigns, but now you get the pro tools to manage your own campaigns, and that doesn’t matter whether you have one fundraiser or you have a team or you’re an executive director doing your fund-raising you need management tools too keep you on track and all these other things. I was just talking about velocity. It helps you raise more money, you’ll find it at pursuant dot com. Now, tony’s, take two fund-raising fundamentals. Have you checked it? Out it is my alter ego. The other podcast i do. I produce it for the chronicle of philanthropy and it’s. Very different. Different format length. Um where? It’s only ten minutes. Ten to twelve minutes. And it’s once a month. Not a weekly it’s on the chronicle of philanthropy website philanthropy. Dot com it’s. Not at tony martignetti dot com. Did i mention my side is tony martignetti dot com telefund dot com and it is devoted to fund-raising that’s, that’s all we talk about now that that’s pretty wide topic, but we don’t get into the stuff that is legal. Andi even, you know, social media, you know, started tangential prospect research getting old, tangential. So it’s devoted to fund-raising. But we talked about events, grants planned e-giving major annual, um, crowd funding. Those are just some of the ones that come occur to me off the top of my head anyway. Fund-raising fundamentals quick burst. Once a month, you’ll find info at twenty martignetti dot com there is info there on dh fund-raising fundamentals is also on itunes. As is this show that’s tony’s take two. My pleasure to welcome even nico to the show as guide. Stars lead on non-profit strategy and evaluation issues. Even nico helps non-profits share their full story, using the guide star profile and to use the information to make better decisions. She has over twelve years of experience in strategic planning and evaluation in the social sector. Having worked at fsg social impact advisors and mckinsey and company, she has a phd in physics from oxford university. Dr niko, welcome to non-profit radio it’s. A pleasure to have you. I have to ask you right off with this phd in physics. Does this non-profit inertia trouble you? Well, i probably have a better understanding of non-profit inertia, maybe that anyone else having having a degree in physics and, you know, learning about inertia and all the forces that actor in the world so i often him, you know, both and used and delighted when i hear some of those words from science trickling into into the social sector as well. Well, i’m going to challenge that. You may know the most about it. I i studied up and i learned that for a mass point. The moment of inertia is just the mass times, mass times the square of the perpendicular distance to the rotation access i equals m r squared, of course, and that point mass relationship becomes the basis for all other moments of inertia. Since any object can be built up from a collection of point masses, how do you feel about that? I think that just proves that these days, if you have the google and wikipedia and access to all of the sources, then maybe you don’t. Maybe you don’t need to study quite a quite as much. How dare you? How dare you suggest that? Where do you come off? Well i just introduced you. We never even got started yet. All right. Um really? I mean, honestly, okay. Guidestar, guidestar, dot or ge? They have ah, niu platinum, the new platinum club, the platinum level tell us, just give us an overview about this before we go into detail. Yeah, now absolutely so it’s funny. So i’m you know, relatively new to guide star i’ve been with rose for about six months, but i feel like that gives me kind of a unique view on what we’re doing and some of the new things that we’re doing and what’s most exciting. And i would say one of the most exciting things that we’ve done, you know, really for a long time is to have to have released problems. So platinum is so we recognize non-profits for sharing information through guide star and it’s, not just sharing it with us, but it’s sharing it with a lot of other stakeholders, including donors thunders, you know, other non-profits and audiences, and we recognize that non-profits with what we what we call a seal of transparency so that’s, really and platinum is our highest and knew it seal of transparency and a recognition of the kind of really interesting and much more meaningful data that non-profits can share with others. All right, cool. Now, uh, let’s, let’s, give some background, tio, guidestar and and its value. What kind of stats do you have on this guidestar dot org’s thatyou khun boast about in a number of unique users each month? I mean, come on, you know, you have this, you know how many? How many people? How many people in america are you to me, but being sort of like a cross between, obviously we are non-profit ourselves a social sector organization, but also in company, because we do run guys start that or that we, you know, we do well, we deal a lot with digital data. So yes, there are a lot of numbers out there that sounds very impressive. And i would say one of the things that really drew me to guide stars is just a scale of reach that we have. So a few of those numbers of guy estrada or ge gets about seven million visitors per year. And this this is a cross section of both, you know, donors who might be coming to us advisors. Who are working with foundations and advising them on the strategies and the partners that they have, as well as non-profits who come to us directly to either, you know, look for their own information in some cases, and of course, to look at their peers. So seven million visitors, i would say that we have also, you know, one thing that we that i didn’t know about before guys start before coming here is that when you participate without your data doesn’t just stay on guidestar dot org’s, you know, as great as that is, it actually flows to a lot of other places in the sector, so we have over one hundred ninety, partner kind of websites, platforms who who used this data and they sit with their audiences who again tend to be donors or, you know, for crowd funding for point of sale giving for donor advised funds. E-giving so, you know, through that kind of network of one hundred ninety partners, we we you know, millions, not just seven, but, you know, tens to hundreds of billions but could could even be more than i equals m r squared could be could be i don’t know how that applies to anything but is completely irrelevant. But now every organization that file’s in nine ninety is already on guide star, right? Yes. Okay, i know you want to make this point even more emphatically than i did for are over ten thousand listeners throughout small and midsize non-profits you’re already there. Yeah, i think this is this can’t be over kind of emphasized, so a lot of people might think that it’s kind of like linkedin where you have to go and create a profile. The fact is, if you do file a form with the irs, but you are already on guidestar, and so really, the thing to do is to kind of google yourself, sees your guy’s profile, comes up or come to guys start at borg and sort of google yours up with us. Search for yourself and see what’s there because i’m finding that a lot of non-profits especially your, you know, fantastic audience, maybe a sort of smaller to ms sidle midsize organizations doesn’t know that they’re already on their and maybe their profile is looking a little sad. Yeah, what would they have if they’ve contributed nothing? Well, they might. Have their basic nine, ninety form as a button, and otherwise, you know not much off perhaps a few of the fields from the nine, ninety that’s named their ceo, but not much else. Okay, now, tio, you said to move up to the platinum or two moved a level you recognize non-profits for their contributions, and you have different levels. Bronze, silver, gold and platinum. And now, okay, why don’t we? Well, what comes before bronze, like, if you’ve contributed nothing, is that the aluminum foil it’s, like a sheet of paper? No. Well, try to stick. I mean, okay, your degrees, physical physics, not chemistry, but try to stick with the pattern. It’s all there, all medals. Let go that’s! Better than aluminum foil. Yes, lead, pb. Okay, so i know all about science and chemistry. Pb lead. Yes, lead that’s a better one than aluminum foil even. Okay, so if we have nothing, my organization has not contributed anything to the guidestar dot or ge. How do i get to the bronze? No, no. That’s a great question. So, i mean, the first thing to do is to actually claim your profile. I love that works claim, you know, it’s sort of obviously connotation, some level of ownership, but we have got to start obviously can’t just let anyone modify any organizations profilers needs to someone who represents that organization needs to, you know, come to us and say, hey, i’d like to you know, i’d like to be in charge of the content on my profile, and so all you have to do is come to you guys, start that orc and there’s a nice button up, you know, a field up top that says update your profile that takes you through some of the instructions. But the first step is going to be to, you know, tell us that you want to claim your profile. By coming to our website, then we will do a little bit of due diligence to make sure that we verify that you can, in fact, modify the organization. You want to represent your weinger bonem fundez just that your bona fide? Yeah. Okay. And then after that, your kind ofyou have access two as a set of tools that let you contribute the information. All right, all right. So that’s bronze and and how do we move up? Yeah, so broad. I mean, one thing i’ll say about bronze bronze are is kind of the basics, right? Unless you climb the podium. You know, the olympics coming up later this summer, it gets you on the podium, right? It sort of means that you you could be found as an organization that is a legitimate organization working in the social sector. All right. And more than just your more than just your nine, ninety, is there? Yeah. So, it’s, just, you know, you can say kind of what your programs are. You can obviously a little bit more about who your leaders are. And frankly, you can also make sure that your correct address appears with your organization. Like you wouldn’t believe, but i know a lot of us move around, and this could be a problem even having the right address, foreign organizations that, you know, step one, you’re on the podium with ron, get over is basically contributing some your actual audited financials or some equivalent. So the nine, ninety, you know, we love we know it, we love it, but it’s a little bit dated and it’s not the same audited financials. So if you if you want to get the silver, you can contribute some additional information about your financials and that just increases trust in your organization. All right, wait, wait even let me stop you doesn’t have to be an audited financial statement cause a lot of small organizations don’t don’t have to do that and don’t do it it’s very expensive, right? So i would say one passes the auditors statement, the other passes the tool basically give you some of the fields that we need that kind of give us a little bit of the equivalent, even if it’s not audited. Okay, i don’t see how you’re very egalitarian there, all right? All right. Gold, gold wolber gold is basically helping tell your story, right? You’re not just your financials, you’re not just your tax form, you’re not even just your address. It’s really about describing what you’re trying to do and what strategy is you’re using to get there? So is allowing you to tell your story in your own words, so more narrative in the gold, more free form, okay? And the pinnacle blast them? Yes, xena, zenith of guidestar presence. I don’t know where they were going to go, you know, diamond emerald next or what? I know well, you have to go like like, you know, it is kopperman basically says, you know it, if gold is the town halls and platinum is a little bit the show, right show it. And so what we’re what we’re looking for there is for organizations to tell us about some of the measures that they use to track their progress in results. So it’s, it’s, more quantitative, you know, give us the measures, but i would say it’s still very inviting for organizations of any size, okay? Because we basically were not dictating to you what you should measure, we’re just asking what you already do and what you care about and what you talk with your board about already in terms of outcomes and impact, is that a is that where you’re going with this? Well, i think we’re starting a basic, even just the outputs, right, sort of what activities, how many people are you’re serving? You know, if you if you have, if you have compelling information about what happens to those people that, you know, you might think of those mora’s out out outcomes, then we are definitely want to know that as well. Okay, i understand. All right, we’re gonna take a break, and, well, professor niko and i have plenty more time left. Teo, go through the rigours of equal m r squared, and so please stay with us, and we’ll keep talking about guide star, platinum and guidestar generally. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked. And naomi levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Duitz hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. Eva, i elevated you. I called you professor nico. I should’ve just said dr niko. Doctor, have you ever been a bit? Have you have been a professor of physics? You have not right. Okay, i did not recall that in your in your bio, but i want to be sure. So it’s just it’s. Just it’s. Just dr nico. Not not, professor. Um, okay, so no. So after platinum, i don’t know. The best thing i was thinking of was like, you’re gonna have to go, like american express black, but of course, that’s not a metal. So i don’t know where you’re going, but clearly you need you’re going to need more because you’re gonna have a lot of organizations in platinum in a few years and then you’re going to want to distinguish even higher than that. So i hope there’s planning for the expansion in the future, the up on the upside. Well, it sounds like you have some good, great ideas, tony. And if your listeners teo all years yeah, i was thinking, do we go gems? Do we go planet? Do we go colors? Planets is a good one. Oh, yeah, we just found another twelve hundred forty seven planets? I think so. Planet says you’ve got a lot of potential upside potential with planets. That’s a good one. Um okay, so we understand what these levels air about and let’s see what’s so wanted it was anything more you want. Talk about the terms of the of the platforms of the ladder or whatever metaphor you use, teo, describe these different levels. Anything more you want to say about that? I think i think we’re pretty good, although i just want to say that i think what’s really interesting is that it’s already? So we have about over six hundred organizations currently who have gotten to platinum and what’s nice. Is that it’s? Not just some of the big guys? Of course we do have those represented, but it is actually organizations just like ones that are hopefully listening. So i just pulled out a profile here for a little organization called the adult life training incorporated it’s out of fort wayne, indiana. It’s got, you know, an income revenue of, uh, a few thousand dollars on dh what’s. Fascinating is, you know, obviously i can read a lot about their mission. They’re trying to help hyre they’re trying to help people gain employment, but when you go to that platinum results, you see, you know, you see some really fascinating things, like they say here the number of clients that we served, it happens to be thirty eight and twenty fifteen, so now you know, something, they they’ve touched, you know, the lives of almost forty, people hyre here are how many certificates have been earned by those people in terms of further training, the one hundred fifty four and then here’s the numbers of here’s, the number of hours of training that has been delivered and it’s almost six thousand hours of training. And, you know, i’m just saying that i think this kind of information is extremely valuable for other non-profits to see and understand and for donors and thunder to see and understand that’s an excellent example. Thank you. Even what’s the name of the organization again. Shout them out again. It’s called adult life training think and it’s out of fort wayne, indiana. Excellent. Excellent. All right. I hope adult life training is listening, but okay, so that’s a great example of a very small organization. Thirty eight. People served in a year, but hyper local and they’re ah, they’re in the platinum club, you’re in the club, all right? All right. Um, what kind of feedback do you get from donors of potential donors? The individuals using guide star, you know, share some of those hopefully positive stories? I’m sure they are. Well, what kind of stuff do you hear? Oh, i think, you know, donors really these days are increasingly coming online toe look for information about non-profits and i’m sure we all talked about a lot about millennials, but we all know the trends there that increasingly people look for information and people are curious about not only, you know, they do care about some of the financials they do, but they really want to know what? What are some of the results? What does the work look like? They want to see some of the pictures, um, of people being health, and they want to understand the scope of work that a non-profit might be doing. And so we just see a lot of interest in this in this kind of information from donors and hence the new platinum level because that gets to what you’re describing people are seeking. How about from non-profits do you? You get it anecdotes from organisations that are grateful that you’re there because you enabled ah ah! Gift. Absolutely so way enabled give through our through our platform there sort of donate now buttons on our platform, and obviously, as i mentioned, we enable a lot of a lot of non-profits come to us actually, because they are trying to participate in the amazon smile program that’s sort of millions of dollars are moving through the program where someone could buy a book and give to their favorite non-profit at the same time, we actually provide the back end to that information, and so they want to be featured on there, and they come to us sense of mr info and his current with amazon and its current with all those one hundred ninety other websites. So, you know, we definitely see non-profits just being thankful that we save them time and we increase their exposure to all of those different audiences, and they don’t have to maintain a separate profile with all of those different order, which for small non-profit would be a humongous a little more about these hundred ninety partners you have what are some other examples of types of organisations or companies that are using guide stars, expertise and and gathered information? Yeah, great. Great it’s. The second one. Oh boy, thank you. Two in two in thirty minutes. That’s. Great. Thanks. So so one one great example. So all of the major donor advised funds of national donor advised funds that that facilitate e-giving for donors are using guide stars data. So obviously, fidelity, schwab, those those kinds of funds we also, as i mentioned, obviously participate in a lot of that kind of point of sale giving programs. Amazon probably being the biggest one. And then the third sort of the third kind of group of people are, you know, there’s, a lot of crowd sourcing crowd funding web sites out there, you know, global e-giving give well, grassroots or great there’s a lot of sort of crowd funding websites that also are looking for non-profits teo, you know, to be features there, and we provide that information as well. Excellent. Those are some very big names. Cool. All right. We just have about two minutes or so left. Eva and i want to touch on the overhead myth. The the idea that the best way to evaluate a charity is tow no one number. And that is how much of its revenue does it spend on, quote overhead that this bad this bad moniker for all non program expenses. What is guidestar doing to help defeat this myth? We’ve been very active on this because we we think that judging a non-profit by their overhead ratio is just, you know, playing wrong. It’s it’s sort of like judging a business by their cost, without understanding that returned that they might be generating. So what i think it’s wrong to we’ve been active in campaigning and always had sort of a letter to donors, a letter to thunder’s about the overhead miss and how they should be paying more attention to how they think about, you know, how they compensate non-profits for the work, the true cost of the program and briefly overhead is people its executive directors, it it if they are the people also doing the work and being out there in the world promoting the work. So, you know, that that’s been a part of the campaign, the other thing i would say, just a link back to our problem conversation is, you know, so far, we said two donors, please don’t look at the financial ratio, right, it’s sort of like telling people, please don’t think about the pink elephants what’s the first thing you think about, you know, the pink elephants, so i wouldn’t feel like wave tell people not to look at that as the sole measure of success, but we haven’t had a lot to offer. Instead, i feel like we’ve gotten more. We’re going to get their offering them something else compelling to think about it. Look at all right? We have to leave it there. Eva listeners can look back to that show that i had on had with the jacob harold, the ceo of of guide star and the other two signers to the overhead myth letter about two years ago. October was that october. I think twenty thirteen maybe was almost three years ago even thank you very much. Thank you. You’re very welcome. Thank you. Even ico representing, of course, guidestar dot or ge next week, maria simple returns with political giving. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line. Producer gavin doll is our am and fm outreach director. Shows social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein. Be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno, two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.