Tag Archives: Google AdWords

Nonprofit Radio for November 29, 2021: How Much To Spend On Ads In 2022

My Guest:

George Weiner: How Much To Spend On Ads In 2022

“The Nonprofit Advertising Benchmark Study” will help you decide what’s the right amount for you to spend on advertising if you want to be comparable to your peers. At the very least, it’s a place to start your research on ad spending. George Weiner explains the study. He’s chief whaler at Whole Whale. Does that make him the Captain Ahab of nonprofit tech? Listen to find out.

 

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[00:02:18.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with odo toxicity if I heard that you missed this week’s show How much to spend on ads. In 2022, the nonprofit advertising benchmark study, we’ll help you decide what’s the right amount for you to spend on advertising if you want to be comparable to your peers at the very least, it’s a place to start your research on ad spending George winner explains the study. He’s chief whaler at whole whale. Does that make him the captain ahab of nonprofit tech. Let’s find out on tony state too. It’s the holidays and fourth quarter sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome George winner to nonprofit radio He is the chief whaler of whole whale, a digital agency that leverages data and tech to increase the impact of nonprofits and for benefit companies. He’s also a co founder of power poetry, the largest teen poetry platform in the US A safe creative free home to over 500,000 poets. George was chief technology officer of do something dot org. He managed the site overhaul twice. Winning a webby award and helped build a community of over a million and a half young people taking action. He’s an evangelist for democratized data and measuring success. The company is at whole whale dot com and at whole whale. Welcome chief whaler. How are you George

[00:02:21.24] spk_0:
wow, incredible intro. Thank you so much. tony Thanks for having having me on

[00:02:26.63] spk_1:
my pleasure, my pleasure. What’s what’s behind the company name? Whole whale which which leads you to be whole whaler. What’s that about?

[00:03:23.44] spk_0:
Yeah, we found it a decade ago and at the time the thought that struck me was ultimately the way that the nan, you know the Nantucket whalers in the massachusetts whalers in the 18 fifties would look at a whale and they would basically bring back lamp oil and throw the rest away in times of abundance. We tend to be a touch wasteful instead of using everything from the bluebird of the bone. And I took that lens and said, I felt like many social impact organizations weren’t looking at the opportunity to leverage data and technology and the rising web in that way. And they simply said, hey, hey, here’s the internet and the most powerful tool we’ve ever been given. Let’s put a donate button on it and call it a day. And so I kind of gave rise to how we view this time of abundance with an eye toward the best ways of leveraging data intact to increase the impact.

[00:03:57.64] spk_1:
Very interesting, very interesting. Uh you uh you drew that analogy between the two interesting. All right. Um, so are you the captain? Ahab, do you have a deep revenge? I’m trusting you know the story of Moby dick. Do you have anything deeply uh hurting you that you need revenge for? That’s going to drive the the ship of what was it the uh um The pick, watch the pick what it’s going to drive your whole whale peak watt into the ground.

[00:04:11.14] spk_0:
I’ve got a few white whales. Maybe I chase, you know, I got a few white whales maybe that I chase. Yeah. The other reason I found it all whales. Because of the nautical puns. I mean, you’re virtually swimming in them anywhere you turn and with regard to the things that chase, you know, the nonprofit ad study is one, but we like we go after interesting projects along the way. In addition to our our day to day work as consultants. We also develop products and try to put things out there in the ecosystem that help others do their jobs better. Or learn more about whatever field they’re wandering and so I can get distracted by a white whale or two.

[00:04:48.64] spk_1:
Okay, I see the navigate your helping folks navigate. Yes. The of course, the nautical you’re right. The uh nautical puns are are abundant.

[00:04:52.84] spk_0:
Yeah, they have to be they have to be

[00:05:05.44] spk_1:
navigate navigate the waters. All right. All right. So, we’ll see if your captain Ahab flush that out. See if you’ve hopefully you’re not going to do to uh to hold whale. What what the captain did too

[00:05:07.82] spk_0:
Made it 10 years so far. But I think that’s mainly because of an amazing team that basically just puts me in the right direction. Okay. It’s

[00:05:18.64] spk_1:
very gracious of you. All right. What is this this uh, nonprofit advertising benchmark study? What’s this thing all about?

[00:06:18.54] spk_0:
We wanted to answer a simple question and you know, never underestimate the power of a simple question because it can lead to, you know, a lot of, you know, threads essentially how much should a nonprofit spend on ads? This idea of advertising and promotion, it’s available technically informed nine nineties and with the help of cause I. Q. Which is a, you know, been a great partner in this. We analyzed seven over 7000 organizations to get that answer. And we chose organizations with a number of filters because clearly, you know, there’s 1.8 million nonprofits out there depending on how you’re sort of measuring the five oh one C threes and they’re like, oh that’s too many. And also, uh, you know, a third of them are not necessarily even over the threshold for reporting to the I. R. S. So we wanted to find 1 to 10 million in revenue organizations between one Million and 10 million and also met other certain criteria. And then we just sort of just, we dove in headfirst to to answer that question, how much should non profit spend on paid ads.

[00:06:36.34] spk_1:
Okay, so among your sample size of 7100 or so you you were you looked to see there’s I guess there’s a, there’s a line on the 9 90 that where folks where organizations report advertising expenses and that’s what, that’s what you were looking for,

[00:07:08.64] spk_0:
correct. It’s, you know, publicly disclosed because that’s, you know, the game and we look at that. So, you know, there are certain assumptions there that, you know, we note in the study of what that line is and what it isn’t. So it isn’t necessarily saying All right, this is the amount that people spent just on facebook ads or google ads. It’s advertising and promotion of the organization. So, you know, that could extend to people Paying for print ads. It could even in some cases, but we filtered it out for the most part include the cost paid to advertising firms to run ads. Uh, though many according to, I think the analysis, we didn’t hear only about like five or 10% in that range actually incorporated in there. And those are the outliers.

[00:07:43.14] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. And this specifically, thank you. Cause I was going to ask you about, you know, how, how we define advertising or how you define advertising this study and it specifically doesn’t include google ad grant money. Right? That’s, that’s different.

[00:07:58.84] spk_0:
Super important. Thanks for bringing that up. And it’s one of those sort of, you know, expert pieces there that it’s an in kind amount that doesn’t get reported on that line. Right? The google ad grants and you 10-K per month in money spent is something that would show up on your in kind value, not actual dollars out the door.

[00:09:03.04] spk_1:
Okay. Right. So it’s captured elsewhere. So it’s not part of the study here. Okay. Um, and so I was struck, you know, I’ve I’ve known that these that the vast majority of nonprofits are are smaller, you know, smaller revenue amounts. But I guess just reading it again, reminding me refreshing my recollection that uh, 93 a half percent of nonprofits are under $1 million dollars in revenue and and only 1.5% are over $10 million dollars in revenue. So that this this, you know, our universe of nonprofits, that this is not related to advertising, although, I mean, it is in terms of big words spend more on advertising, but that’s not my point. My point is just it just drives home that so many of our of our colleagues in nonprofits are organizations that are under $1 million dollars in revenue, 93 93 a half percent are under a million dollars, vast majority. Again.

[00:10:11.74] spk_0:
Yeah. And it’s important to note that, you know, because I think maybe in our minds or because of the narratives, we see large organizations and assume that they’re all like multimillion dollar, but like, this is the truth of it and that’s Yeah, that 1.44, exact five oh one c three nonprofit organizations and, you know, there’s a very, very small fraction of them that kind of live above that line, You know, like roughly speaking the same is kind of true in business ecosystems as well. You know, it’s hard to get to a million dollars. You realize that. But also when you look at the market how, how much of a long tail there really is. And we wanted to sort of remove that and say like once an organization has kind of, I mean not saying you’ve made it, but you were in rarer air, certainly after crossing $1 million you were running something that certainly has enough residents to to reach that level. And then we also filtered by age to be like, well, wait a minute. Maybe they’re like one night, you know, overnight successes or pieces like that. So we looked at organizations over under this century funded founded in uh, and and took a look at that as well. But it is, it is a curious point. We wanted to start with that context because I don’t think it’s given enough in the sense of nonprofit industry and you like immediately sort of have this availability heuristic meaning like I remember the last thing I saw and either it’s the red cross or you know, you know, pets down the corner saving one pet at a time.

[00:10:41.44] spk_1:
The availability heuristic. Thank you dropping that tech guy. You know, you have to, uh, well you, I’ll keep you out of jargon jail because you you explained it immediately

[00:10:47.03] spk_0:
go to

[00:10:51.64] spk_1:
The availability heuristic now it’s a good one. I love it. Uh huh. And you uh you flushed it out so folks understand what you’re talking about.

[00:10:56.23] spk_0:
I still will probably end up in jail though, won’t you

[00:11:10.64] spk_1:
didn’t do it? Well that could be we’ll see how we’ll see how the conversation goes. But you didn’t do it pretentious li like you know the all you would have available, all you, all you would have within your within your thinking at that point would be subject to the availability heuristic.

[00:11:13.34] spk_0:
Yeah. And then just leave it. Didn’t just leave it

[00:11:47.74] spk_1:
there and then make me ask and then make you flush it out. Which would have put you in jargon jail. So all right now because your availability heuristic. Thank you. This is a technology guy. Data data data guy, expect those things. I have a book like that. What’s that way out of this cool book from college. Alternative interpretations of data based conclusions. I think availability is in there. You know, uh confusing correlation and cause and effect. That’s a very common one. This is cool book. Can you show it to you

[00:11:50.24] spk_0:
what’s strong? I like that

[00:12:07.34] spk_1:
rival hypotheses. That’s what it is, rival hypothesis. Alternative interpretations of data basically. Okay, so enough pretense for now let’s talk about the study a little more. Yes. What stood out for you uh findings. What what what was most informative to you that and you think our listeners need to know?

[00:13:12.84] spk_0:
Yeah. The top line, I feel like we have that that cliffhanger is like how much should number I would spend. It’s like how much should we spend already? What’s the number? So I felt like we owed it to the audience to give them a number with a lot of asterisks and the number which is the median spend for our sample was basically $12,070. Which roughly equated to 5% of the median revenue as a as a ratio. So you know, knowing nothing else turning off the podcast right now you’re like, all right, we should be like at least considering that. and 60% of This sample, 60% were actually spending on ads or spending on advertising and promotion. I’m going to use that interchange of advertising and promotion and add but advertising activities 60% did and 40% did. Not. That actually surprised me. I actually really believe that there would be a lot more organizations spending. So you know that that was a bit of a surprise to me.

[00:13:16.87] spk_1:
Okay. Right. Not even not even 2/3

[00:13:20.04] spk_0:
are spot on your Yeah, exactly. Exactly on

[00:13:22.59] spk_1:
Advertising. Okay. And the median spend is 12,000 between friends. We can around the 70 away.

[00:13:29.35] spk_0:
So 12 spot me 70 12,000

[00:13:31.94] spk_1:
dollars. There you go. That’s that’s your

[00:13:34.30] spk_0:
feet for being option.

[00:13:48.14] spk_1:
Um uh And the average was, you know, it was interesting. The average was quite the average of like 4.2 million wasn’t the average was very highly skewed. Do you remember that? Right? It was it was something very huge.

[00:14:37.04] spk_0:
Oh yeah. I mean you had to throw out the average because of these outliers. There’s like these massive positive outliers and there’s some nonprofits out there that are spending quite significantly. And you know, you sort of begin to touch on lobbying. There’s like um, you know, there was a pro life America group up there and the millions of dollars and you know, that’s that’s not data that necessarily is going to help you, right. If Bill Gates suddenly walked into your boardroom, you’d all be average billionaires. Not helpful. Right. That that kind of insight is not helpful. So that’s why we chose the median. I’m sure it’s in your book of trying to avoid those mistakes. And you know, we we went through and tried to explain why we chose the numbers we did and also give access to the full data dashboard if people are interested in it.

[00:14:51.34] spk_1:
Alright, so, well, since you mentioned access to this, how do how do folks get the summary and I’ll be sure to say at the end, you can remind me if I don’t, how do you get the, get the, get the summary of the study.

[00:14:55.14] spk_0:
So it’s at a whole whale dot com slash advertising tried to make it pretty simple. We have a nice infographic there and the ability to download the entire report.

[00:15:05.74] spk_1:
Okay. And there’s a little fee there’s a $5 fee if you want if you want

[00:15:08.89] spk_0:
All this. So yeah the full data and dashboard if you want to go digging into it. Um and getting access to that. Yeah that’s the $5 fee. But you get the whole study which is you know 21, pages of awesome. That’s you know that’s available

[00:17:05.14] spk_1:
right? That’s free. That’s absolutely free. Okay. Hold well dot com slash advertising it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Are you making your plans for 2022 for fundraising? Marketing communications. Do you need help Look at turn two? If you’re like if you’re thinking about fundraising you need to raise more money in 2022 marketing and communications. Your content, the stuff that goes out all that that you’re creating for your donors for general awareness. If you need help with it, think about turn to because that’s what they do. They have a background in non profits. They understand the nonprofit community so you’re not you’re not hiring an agency that only works with you know cos they understand the nonprofit space. They can help you develop your content, help you hone those messages, Get those messages out like you’ve been hearing me talk about, right? So if you need to raise more money or if you need to go to the next level in marketing communications In 2022, think about turn to because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o Now back to how much to spend on ads in 2022. uh, the, the 80 20 rule applies here is one of your, One of your takeaways that uh, the top 20% spend about 80% of the ad revenue. Yeah.

[00:17:06.54] spk_0:
It always seems to happen and I always seem surprised when I find that power law, right? The 80 20 shows up on like

[00:17:21.64] spk_1:
how again does it keep happening time after time after time for in a wide variety of applications, 80 20 applies. How is our world,

[00:17:57.74] spk_0:
especially in actually, especially in financial distribution. But I was actually, I did the analysis. I was like, it probably won’t in this case show and I was like, you gotta be kidding me. So it wasn’t exactly 80 20 it was 24 76. So that’s about 24% spent 80% of that ad spend coming back to your point on average is being like much higher than in a potential bit misleading. So you do have that handful of organization spending quite a bit and the top 13 organizations in our study spent over a million dollars. So you kind of see that heavy, heavy waiting. And if it’s like, all right, you know, the purpose of our organization is the public awareness of this particular issue. And the way we do it is just turned donations into advertising and they’re nonprofits that just do that And they skirt the line awful close to lobbying, but they stay this side of fair.

[00:19:23.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. Um, and you know, it occurs to me to this is, um, you know, you’re stuck with a lackluster host who is, whose thinking is not, uh, completely linear at all times, uh, if ever on that. But, uh, this is not, this is not a survey. So we’re not, we don’t have biases across people giving what they think is a good answer. You know, we don’t have those. So that just goes back to my book, the rival hypotheses, you know, self reports, not self reported data. Um, you do have the problem, like you said, you had to correct for whether people use agencies to produce their ads, but you were able to sort that out. So there’s, there’s some potential differentiation in, in the way people report organizations report advertising on their 9 90. But overall this is more reliable than survey data.

[00:20:13.84] spk_0:
Yeah. And I’m glad you brought that up. This is, you know, reported. So, I mean if you get back down to it, Yes, there is a human somewhere in the financial department of this non profit making that decision, but they’re doing that at a very macro stage and we’re pulling raw data were not wandering in and saying, Hey, how much do you spend on ads and you know, looking at, You know, 250 random nonprofits that decided to randomly fill out a survey with limiting information or you know, not being wanted to be fully transparent for whatever reasons. This is you know, this is source data from the organization according to the I. R. S aggregated by cause I. Q. And then we analyzed it to really find those answers and it’s something that we just felt was lacking. We felt like there was a lot of uh, we’ll call it a qualitative As opposed to quantitative type of research out there being like, Oh, here’s the official number. And then you look at the fine print and realize it was the opinion of 60 people not problems. And I’m like, I don’t know

[00:20:33.14] spk_1:
a lot of the answer. A lot of times people say, well it depends, it depends. So you’ve drilled down more than it depends.

[00:20:58.94] spk_0:
We’ve drilled down more and also been able to look at individual cause areas. So not just lumping one of my, one of my watchwords is being careful of lumping together the entire industry into one tidy bucket and assuming they all behave the same way. And if you know one nonprofit, you know one non profit and so we actually have, you know, in one of our findings divided up The type and cause focus of the organization to kind of get a better idea in that distribution, which tells, you know, another different story, which is all the more to say. I, I hesitated but knew we dessert we we owed the audience an answer of $12,000. But even that can be misleading depending on the industry and sub industry weren’t

[00:21:34.94] spk_1:
well, like arts organizations for instance, spend the most right. That’s what you’re, you’re, you’re teasing us a little bit. But I don’t do that to nonprofit radio listeners. You can, you can attempt it, but I won’t allow it. So, uh, let’s, uh, so arts organizations spend the most on advertising, right?

[00:22:15.54] spk_0:
Organizations were the highest spender. Again, surprising to me because I actually thought it would be health, I thought would be the health industry spending, you know, more to research awareness and pieces like that. But you know, frankly at the end of the day, you need to get people to attend to show up to, you know, go to these, you know, one time events to museums on location and so these, these were the highest highest spenders for sure. And promoters of performing arts sports and similar events were at the top and then the lowest, you know, because you look at the high and low, we’re less surprisingly the grantmakers and giving services like if you’re giving grants, guess what people find Jack, If you’re writing checks, people, people

[00:22:42.04] spk_1:
find you events, you, you you, you teased out what ad spending does too event income and I’ll let you, I’ll let you reveal what was found.

[00:22:46.44] spk_0:
Yeah, this is a bit of a nothing burger on the face of it because I had, here’s a case where I went in with maybe a touch of an agenda. I had an agenda. I’m going to admit it that I thought if a nonprofit was spending research, going

[00:23:03.00] spk_1:
back to my book, researcher bias.

[00:23:38.74] spk_0:
Yeah, this was researcher bias. But I left it in because I was so surprised that the ad spend of a nonprofit did not correlate. Uh, mind you even causation that didn’t even correlate in any meaningful way to hire event income. So event income is another thing technically reported by non profits in the 990 that you can pull aggregate and analyze. I’ll put an asterisk there, there are problems with that reporting which may be impacted this. But ultimately there was no correlation at all with this idea that or eggs without ads and with ads had any meaningful difference in the amount raised with event fundraising.

[00:23:56.54] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. Clearly you had, you had a hypothesis because that’s why you pulled the event income Data off the 1990s.

[00:25:03.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, my hope was to show like I had, I had to hope that we would show that guess what if you’re spending to promote your event, your event does better And therefore an aggregate. They should be the folks that are making more money, you know, when in fact, you know, the of our, I can give some context with the data size. Uh, about 68% of our group had listed event fundraising expenses and 58% of that group reporting event fundraising revenue from their form nine nineties. So right in there, you’re like, wait a minute. They didn’t all make money, nope, just events that happened. Right? So I think it’s important. Not all events have maybe the purpose of fundraising, but that’s where they get listed. There’s also the question of in the accounting department, did that gift of $100,000 that came in five days after the event? Did that go to the capital campaign or did that go to the fundraising event? There’s a lot of mushiness there. So, you know, I’ll blame it on the data, but I wanted to report it because it was something that sort of keep us honest moment.

[00:25:09.32] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. But it’s valid. You reported as a finding. So

[00:25:13.12] spk_0:
like we. Did you believe it? Believe it. Ok.

[00:27:30.84] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. It’s the holidays and it’s the fourth quarter. The holidays. I hope you enjoyed your thanksgiving time with family, friends. Time for yourself. These things are important. You’ve got to take time to rejuvenate yourself to relax however you you know what’s best for you, however you do that for yourself. However you relax. It might be some people, some people relax by, you know, adrenaline rushes and uh, you know, zip cordon however you relax. I hope you did it over thanksgiving and I hope you will continue it throughout the holiday season. We’re in the midst of Hanukkah right now christmas coming up whatever your holiday is. I hope that you will be good to yourself as well as of course your family, loved ones and friends that you’re getting together with and it is the fourth quarter. So there’s a lot of pressure. I know vast amounts of, of fundraising revenue come in, not only the fourth quarter, but even in just in december. I know. So I know you’ve got those pressures. What am I talking about? Balance, balance, take care of yourself so you can take care of your non profit Please do both please for the holiday season this year. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for How much to spend on ads in 2022, the older organizations, older organizations spend more then then I’m sorry older organizations spend, uh, less likely to spend. I was thinking of larger. I was thinking of size, not age, older organizations spend less. That that seems to make sense. There are, when we presume that older organizations have have greater, uh market awareness because they’ve been around longer.

[00:27:59.74] spk_0:
I guess the, I love this take away, this was actually, I have to give credit to Kobe on our team who ran the ranch and manage this analysis. He just, he was like, I would love to look at the date funded because the underlying hypothesis here is that older organizations that were incubated and created in a time frankly pre web 12. Oh, would see less value in their operating less value in paying to play in creating ads and creating advertising. Oh, that’s

[00:28:14.34] spk_1:
the hypo that you think that’s the car. They haven’t adapted to our digital ad environment.

[00:28:15.80] spk_0:
I mean it’s, we call the rising generation digital natives. Right? How much time do you spend on Tiktok? Like there’s, I think there’s a fundamental reality.

[00:28:24.88] spk_1:
I’ve never, I’ve never been there. But they can hire people, I don’t need, I can hire somebody to do Tiktok for me to watch you George. That’s so cynical about older organizations. But let’s all right.

[00:28:40.44] spk_0:
You’re right. Let’s, can we, we can tell them the numbers though. It wasn’t that massively off. I will always say that. Um, the,

[00:28:41.84] spk_1:
alright, let’s start with, what’s an older organization. How did you, how did you group or cluster or how did you define age?

[00:28:48.66] spk_0:
How did I unfairly categorize this poor lined group of nickel. They

[00:29:03.74] spk_1:
Are capable of even hiring people to do something post 1950. I mean these these folks are still watching black and white television and some of them are still listening to silent movies in your mind.

[00:29:07.04] spk_0:
Uh, that side, the set with this century. So it’s over under year 2000, which I thought was an interesting inflection point and also it’s nice and round. So

[00:29:17.86] spk_1:
There’s a whole bunch of before 2000. Okay.

[00:30:20.54] spk_0:
Oh yeah, no, no, I think That, I mean it’s a long swath of time to look at and you know, the difference is really that this uh in last century 41% had no ads versus in this century 37%. So you know, 4% points total difference in just the binary decision. Should we have that ads, advertising and promotion? Um and then the median spend of this century was not that much higher, but it’s about 400 ISH, $400 higher uh simply by nothing else controlling for everything else, right? Like nothing else. You just, you’re just going to spend a little bit more if you are going to spend and you’re more likely to be spending on that. So it wasn’t mine, I kind of wish there was a bigger differential. So it’s actually much tighter than, and I have to, I have to say the counter narrative here is that do something dot org, one of my alma mater’s uh what Founded in 1993 and still had a well well above average as fund. So they are like the outlier that I didn’t even have to take that long to find.

[00:30:38.34] spk_1:
It’s impressive that you were the chief technology officer and do something that’s uh that’s a, that’s quite a renowned organization for What, what’s their sweet spot, 14-17 or 14-18 or 14-20 year olds taking, taking action and all the data that you gathered from them. That’s uh that’s quite a, that’s quite a job to have had. It’s impressive.

[00:31:17.44] spk_0:
It was an interesting time to have that role. I’ll say that for sure because there was a lot of, you know, a lot of tech being just sort of introduced web to, oh, just becoming of age, you know, you look at facebook pages and that existing for the first time in that period of time being like, what do we do with this now? I don’t know, what do we do? Like there was a lot of like, have you used this thing, you’re like, oh God, what is this thing now that I have to go figure out and then building our own platform as well and then sort of, you know, data privacy and protection and jumping in? I’d say the biggest piece we figured out was SMS in that period of time, the power of text messaging, which is still, you know, widely under appreciated, I’d say in the social impact sector. I do take, you know, huge nod of the hat to twilio dot org and what they’re doing out there, but it’s a, you know, it was an interesting time to be the cto

[00:31:49.34] spk_1:
and what was the the prime age group for? Do something? I was trying to guess, I was like 14 to 18 or something. Yeah, it’s

[00:32:15.14] spk_0:
extended, you know, I think they would extend it to through college age, but there’s like different sort of calls to action along the way. While I was there, we were predominantly focused on teens and tweens and that sort of intro level to volunteerism and engagement to foster a lifetime of social engagement. And and since then they’ve really evolved because guess what? You know, if you know, if you have half a million people that are of this age, it’s silly to say like, all right, goodbye, Good luck. I’m like, yeah, we can still provide services. We can still provide ways for them to engage. So it’s kind of an interesting quandary. I think for a lot of youth focused organizations to be like, where do you draw that line?

[00:32:53.54] spk_1:
Well, and because eventually those folks are gonna turn over 45 and then they’re just gonna be dinosaurs. Like like you hypothesized about the older organizations so you better get all the data you can now or you know, do something better because once, they once they turned 45, I mean they’re practically dead and they can’t adapt. Their their minds

[00:32:55.86] spk_0:
are impossible.

[00:32:57.15] spk_1:
Yeah. Their brains are neck roast it.

[00:32:59.63] spk_0:
Well actually, no, not completely, but maybe 4% more of them. Like 4% points. four

[00:33:04.59] spk_1:
percent. Alright. Yeah. Good. Thank you for bringing us back to the survey study. So we’re not a servant to the study, definitely

[00:33:11.63] spk_0:
stepped in it. I’m sorry.

[00:33:22.84] spk_1:
So uh let’s talk about what I what I had confused with that larger larger organizations. What did you find out about that? That’s that’s it.

[00:34:56.04] spk_0:
Well, I think the interesting thing is not that hey, surprise larger people with more money, spend more money. This just in from things you probably already knew uh is that it’s the same ratio. So that sort of golden ratio of 5% of revenue just paired out for small and large organizations. My assumption there that I went in there with a sort of hypothesis was that The smaller organizations would probably disproportionately spend at a higher ratio, but it didn’t turn out to be true. So in fact, that sort of 5% of revenue held across large and small organizations, albeit yeah, large organizations spent more. So if you do like if you just take away a quick thing, you could accidentally assume that oh, large organizations got big by spending more. You’re like, well no, they’re larger and they still spend at that ratio, which is in and of itself interesting because it is a much bigger number. And between those two groups where we divided it between large and small, which was over under I should note small organizations being 125 million. So small and 5 to 10 million. So we just basically through the line down the middle and it just equated to the large organizations had a median those three X. In terms of revenue three X. The amount that the 1 to 5 did and that was the same ratio three X more in ad spend. So you know, if you were doing lazy reporting, you say like large organizations spend three times the amount you’re like, Yeah, but that’s just a symptom of numbers. Okay, okay.

[00:35:04.24] spk_1:
And employees, you also, you also tracked the number of full time employees at, at organizations.

[00:35:06.54] spk_0:
Yeah, this was a bear. Would

[00:35:08.42] spk_1:
you find related to? Why is it a bear?

[00:35:17.44] spk_0:
It was a bear. It was just really difficult to do to like segment based on, you know how many employees and they’re simple.

[00:35:18.71] spk_1:
Isn’t there a simple question on the 9 90 I’m not an accountant. So I don’t

[00:36:07.13] spk_0:
know the total number of employees is technically available. So we were able to grab that number and then parse it out. It’s just parsing it between under 55 to 9, 10 to 14 employees, 15 to 19 employees. Uh and sort of scaling that up. The biggest jump happens really from, you know, organizations with less than five employees just aren’t really spending on ads. And the hot take there is that, you know, surprise, it takes people to run the ads running ads and promotions takes dedicated, you know, person or part of a person to truly run. And then as you sort of scale up, you have like random ebbs and flows, but the biggest jump really is that like if you have an organization with under five people, um, they’re really, they’re nowhere near that median ad spend because they come in at like uh 500 bucks versus immediately get to $2000. Um, once you get 5 to 9 and then the next biggest jump, you know, happens once you’re over 24 people, just larger organizations

[00:36:42.33] spk_1:
acquaintance with what goes into this, what why it takes you just said it takes a person or at least a part of a person for organizations that aren’t doing this for the, for the, Well for the 60% that that aren’t spending, what what did they have to devote time to?

[00:36:47.93] spk_0:
It is the most valuable asset of nonprofit has its not the revenue, it’s the time of the people working and to run an ad on facebook to place an ad in the paper. Let’s say if you’re running to place an ad on this very podcast, it takes time for someone to email setup, established the price, manage and test the R. O. I.

[00:37:34.53] spk_1:
It’s not create uh an obstacle where it doesn’t exist. All you have to do is email tony at tony-martignetti dot com. If you want to be a sponsor of nonprofit radio it’s quite a fluid process. George’s referring to George is referring to a university is not that well acquainted with right. This study is not on podcasting advertising When, when he does that one. I hope I will be a part of it. But uh, the, the, I don’t know about the podcasting universe, but if you want to be a sponsor of nonprofit radio it’s a very fluid, easy process. You’re talking directly to the host of the ceo. Just

[00:37:44.47] spk_0:
email you, do it right now. We can do it right now.

[00:38:00.62] spk_1:
Yes, you can do it right now. Whole whale. If whole whale was a sponsor, you would know how fluid and simple it is. But you haven’t taken, you haven’t taken that leap. So all right, let’s not go outside the bounds of the study as we’re, as we’re trying to draw conclusions. So

[00:38:16.22] spk_0:
We take, you know, we sort of take it as sort of maybe a core number that, Oh, you know, we can spend $12,000. A median number, but it doesn’t happen by itself. I mean, nothing simply does. So that that type of ad management was in the back of our mind saying like, you know, you have to track the R. O. Y. You have to create the report for the boss. You have to set up the landing page or whatever it may be that you’re running ads for. It’s not just as simple as saying like, oh cool, no problem. You know, through your credit card over there and you know, let it run. So that’s the thought that it takes labor to implement ads

[00:38:39.72] spk_1:
and your study makes the point that even if you’re hiring someone to do the ads for you. You need someone to oversee the work of the consultant or the firm.

[00:39:07.32] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean the numbers bear out that, you know, it definitely tracks as you go up in a number of employees, um that you’re, you’re able to see a higher spend. Now. That’s also corollary to the amount of revenue. But we also show that along the way, which, you know, incrementally increases but doesn’t necessarily follow along with the differences that you see. So, you know, I don’t purport that this study will show you how to set up your advertising department. But it will tell you that you can’t assume this thing happens in a vacuum and without labor.

[00:40:03.11] spk_1:
Yes. Okay. Well, and you’re a digital uh, advertising agency in at least in part, how much of a full time employee would you do you estimate it would take for? Well, it doesn’t really well for a smaller organization, let’s say they let’s say someone has just 10 employees or fewer like what, how many, what percentage of a full time employees time would that size organization Spending on ads if they were gonna move themselves from the 60% that don’t advertise at all to the 40% that do

[00:40:20.81] spk_0:
an interesting framing there. If you had 10 employees according to a study, you’d have an average revenue of roughly call it 2.3 million your median ad spend for that cluster would be $2100 and You know, oh, that doesn’t require a full time employee. But it’s gonna take about, you know, 2100

[00:40:28.61] spk_1:
That’s in a year. That’s 2100 a year. Yeah. So you’re just spending a little under $200 a month.

[00:40:40.21] spk_0:
I mean, Yeah, I mean and and and 2000. Yeah,

[00:40:42.12] spk_1:
22,000, exactly. 200 a month will be 2400 a year. So you’re saying 2100. So

[00:41:49.21] spk_0:
Yeah. So for that number that’s, that’s easily managed in 10% of somebody’s time depending on the type of Advertising activity that you’re doing. The hope is that that allows you enough to test where there’s value and increase that number, ads can be spent for a number of different reasons. And this is getting back to maybe why my assumption on fundraising was so flawed is ads may be spent to spread awareness of a topic a theme to increase public awareness. I don’t know for vaccines for health research, it’s not necessarily direct 1-1 ratio with fundraising. However, and if you are able and you are trying to turn one ad dollar into two donated dollars and you figure out a way to do that. It’s the hope that spending that and having somebody paying attention to it may figure out a way to get a bit of a little bit of a money engine going for you, spending adds to increase donations to the organization. And that Is a hope of this study. It is a hope that you’re saying, you know what it is worth, frankly 20% of someone’s time to play around with some amount of money that would let us learn and then do more of what works.

[00:42:29.30] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. That’s a pretty good wrap up actually. But I’ll give you a chance to to make it official because we’ve, you’ve covered all your explicit findings in the, in the study which folks can get at whole whale dot com slash advertising very appropriately named simple. Uh, simple U. R. L. Whole whale dot com slash advertising. What would you like to leave folks with George?

[00:42:33.10] spk_0:
I think that point lands hopefully. Well, and I haven’t offended any older organizations out there from which only only older,

[00:42:41.44] spk_1:
only older people. You haven’t offended any organization, not just the older people

[00:42:45.18] spk_0:
For 4% of them. Right.

[00:42:48.60] spk_1:
Well, that was, that was a differential, but it seemed

[00:42:51.50] spk_0:
Like it was 100% of those people were offended before.

[00:42:56.31] spk_1:
No, no, no, no. The way you did it, it was, it was wider.

[00:42:59.55] spk_0:
It was

[00:43:00.19] spk_1:
good

[00:43:00.78] spk_0:
differential. I

[00:43:07.30] spk_1:
understand the differential was 4%. You didn’t offend only 4% of People over 45. Now you offended most of us.

[00:44:35.79] spk_0:
That’s, that’s pretty good. Well, I’ll be joining you shortly so I can, I can join in the offending club. I uh, I will say that there is a lot to, to dig into here, but it is really meant to be an asset for anyone making the case in an organization to say, Hey, why don’t we try this? Why don’t we try to spend? It seems like our counterparts that are in this field are doing so in learning and so if you’re not spending, you’re not learning. And when I look at platforms, social platforms, that purport to be, you know, ways for you to get this organic traffic that will magically come to your site. So if you are posting, for example, on facebook, on instagram, frankly on most social platforms, you are losing money because the platform truly for for non profits for companies. Social media platforms are advertising platforms first and social platforms. Second, one more time. If you are a company, if you are a non profit Social Media is an advertising platform 1st And in an organic social network. 2nd, possibly distant second. Depending on which one we’re talking about. And so it’s like sending somebody in your communications remarketing department to work without a computer by not saying, hey, here’s a bit add money to play with and learn what might be possible for us. So that’s, that’s the thought I want to leave you with. I think.

[00:45:10.89] spk_1:
All right and not just me. All our listeners. Thank you. He’s George wegner He’s the chief. Well, at whole whale, whole whale dot com hotmail dot com slash advertising for the nonprofit advertising benchmark study. If you’re on twitter there at whole whale, thank you, George. Terrific. Thanks for sharing and thanks for being a good sport captain. Ahab. Mhm.

[00:45:11.69] spk_0:
Thanks Tony. Thanks for having us

[00:45:42.49] spk_1:
next week purpose driven marketing. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And let me remind you how simple it is to be a nonprofit radio sponsor. Just email, tony up, tony-martignetti dot com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff

[00:45:57.79] spk_2:
shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit

[00:46:15.59] spk_1:
ideas for the However, go out and be great.

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Durney hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with trapani mitosis if you infected me with the idea that you missed today’s show master google adwords google has ten thousand dollars of free advertising for you each month. Are you taking advantage? Learn about the program and how to plan your campaign also find the best search terms to bid on and stay on track as adwords evolves the twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference i talked to jason shim at pathways to education canada and mark coleman of evergreen digital marketing. This originally aired august twelfth twenty sixteen and master your decision making you make hundreds of decisions a day, some simple, some complex what’s the science and art behind making good ones. You’ll learn how to pare down choices and ask yourself good questions. Karen headed niimi and jamie nelson are from the inside education society of alberta. Karen is director of business in human resources, and jamie is an educator. This is also from sixteen ntc it’s ntcdinosaur day on non-profit radio canada master day. Lots of mastering going on on tony steak, too solitude, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers we b e spelling dot com here’s master google adwords welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen auntie si the non-profit technology conference. We’re also part of ntcdinosaur say, shins, we’re in san jose, california, at the convention center on day three of the conference. My guests now are jason shim and mark holman will meet them very shortly first have to shout out today this this interview’s not just one a day, but one interview swag item which is a brand dahna and it’s from ah on good from on good many ways to wear it and also ah ah yo, yo alighted yo yo which we don’t have enough not brought enough frame i can’t demonstrate my yo go pray yo, yo prowess i used to be able to walk the dog doo around the world, you know, rocket out horizontal butt now it was not to take my word for it that i can still do it, so this joins our swag pile. All right, jason shevawn jason is associate director of digital strategy and alumni relations at pathways to education in canada. Thank you. Very welcome back, jason. Thank you. Believe it was two years ago. It ntcdinosaur good memory and more. Coleman is president of evergreen digital marketing. Mark, welcome to the show. Thanks, tony. My pleasure. All right, gents, we’re talking about how to be a google adwords superhero waken rock this now let’s talk first about the ten thousand dollars per month program for non-profits who who knows this program best. Is it free? How do we where we find it? What is this? Who knows the best? Go ahead. Yeah. Basically it’s ten thousand dollars of in-kind advertising given by google every month. It’s rule over grantspace oh, there’s there’s no limit to it as long as you keep me in the grant requirements and basically it’s in-kind so the little adds it show up on the top the google search results and that’s what you get so it’s a great program be part of. Okay, where can we find info for people who’ve never heard of this before? Google’s website is, i believe it’s google dot com slash non-profits or for canada’s, google dot cn non-profits okay, and you get ten thousand dollars a month? Yeah, a month free. Edwards yeah, free. Albert is not a cash it’s non-cash granted in-kind advertising, but every month limited to three hundred twenty nine dollars per day. But every month on going, as long as you meet the program requirements, there is no expiration date. Okay, did you find it very hard to qualify if you’re i mean, if you’re in the u s and your five o one c three or if you’re in canada and you have the wherever the equivalent designation is, um, you’re a bona fide non-profit is that about all it takes are very much if you meet the requirements for being a registered charity, then you’re pretty much good to go. Okay, well, that’s outstanding, alright, i’m not sure how widely known that is, but it is now because everybody listens to the show. If they’re not, then they do. They ignored at their peril because then i don’t know. All right? Well, let’s, talk about some campaigning. Where should we start with our google now? We’ve got three hundred eighty nine dollars, a day forever where should we start our campaign? So i think that one of the first things to start off with is really identifying, you know what your organization’s your mission is, and then how you can align some of those add words to to align with, you know, with that that mission. So for example, for pathways to education canada, you know, our mandate is to help high school students that they’re living in low income communities to graduate from high school. So anyone searching for any topics that are related to, you know, dropout prevention or helping the high school students day in school or people that are living in communities that we serve, you know, whenever they’re searching for nothing’s, really to education and drop you? No, we make sure that we sort of an ad, so, you know, they confined our resources more easily and that we can get access to nothing’s like tutoring and mentoring and, you know, access to scholarships and things like that, so it really helps connect people with the resource is out in the community. Yeah, how do we think broadly about what keywords people might be searching for him and you know, i’m sure every organization could name half a dozen off the top of their head, but how do we go beyond that? Maybe listening on twitter? I don’t know. You tell me, how did it go beyond what it comes to it comes to mind immediately. I think it’s, you can start with a sort of ah thought experiment and just trying to get into that the heads of other people and really, you know, using your, you know, just general empathy. So when when you, for example, mark and i, we used to live in a way, we’re sort of used to work together in kitchen waterloo at a place called cries in family counseling services. And what we did was we were trying tio create ad campaigns to target people who are looking for things that couples counseling. Nothing is the market for key. Which couples counseling. You know, the bid rate is quite high, you know, for it. And then when you think about it, you know, by the times a couple realizes they need couples counseling. You know, you may have to pay more than what you have for those kind of words. You rewind it. You know, a month, six months prior. You know what? What kind of things might that couple be going through? And, you know, trying we want it that way. So the kind of things maybe bidding for it’s, like, you know, i’m having challenges, you know, communication with i suppose, you know, how do you resolve money issues? Fundamental difference of opinion about children. You know, things like that that, you know, you krauz you at the end of the path, you know, but for people who would require couples counseling you how to get to them a little bit earlier to connect them with the organization. So really, it’s just a lot of service sitting there and thinking, oh, i love that idea of thinking ahead because you actually beat the competition that is paying the higher price for couples. You know, for that phrase couples counseling, absolutely relationship counselling you can get. You can beat the competition if you’re thinking a couple of months earlier. What are they talking about? Like money? Children finance center? Yeah. Cool. On another example, i can provide and american and speak to this. Ah, as well. Let’s, when we part of the service that were offered was credit counseling, and the thing is, like payday loan places like they’re they’re willing to bid up to, like fifteen dollars per click and the google lad words krauz is limited to two dollars per click maximum. Okay, so you really have to be extremely creative when you’re thinking about, you know, for some of those services where you also, you know, essentially competing against for-profit right on do you know, how can you think about, you know, okay, so for people that are running into credit issues down the road, you know, what might have looked like six months prior? And, you know, maybe, you know, people are searching for, you know, troubles making their bills or looking for, you know, initial, you know, information about me, you know, loan consolidation or things like that, you know, before they get into that critical, you know, the moment where you know, they’re they’re living on sort of back to back loans and yeah, so it’s just a lot of thinking and but one of the greatest tips that i think we received when we first discovered head where it’s at it’s from the ultimate guide to adwords by perry marshall you know, way highly recommend that book through the ultimate guide to edwards yeah, it’s called okay. And if one of them was read cosmo magazine and, you know, i think cosmo magazine provides a lot of lessons around, you know that the way that it cost one magazine covers designed, you know, it’s it’s designed to entice, you know, people that are going through a shopping check out to pick up a copy immediately, and i mean, it’s been the best selling women’s back-up dean since nineteen seventy to know so you know, they really done that in the print industry on the transits quite well into design in-kind adwords campaigns as well, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it, tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Dahna oppcoll is pathways to education canada using google edwards ten thousand dollar month program? Yeah, yeah, ok, and mark, you have other clients that are as well, successfully, yeah, a number a number and you’re going with jason’s saying as well to part of the big part of adwords is trying to think of you know how how our people need our programs and services are looking for us if you’re doing banner ads or magazine ads to to kind of show what your your services are in google search is very specific, you can’t think of what our people looking for it so how to use the wise all the questions for help versus the opportunity of having made a scene at where you can put a big, you know, big, full page description of what your services are. This is really an opportunity for people who are actively searching for your programs and services and bring them right back to website. So it’s a really important program tohave from non-profits okay, after we’ve set on decided on a set of add words, phrases that we can afford to bid on how do we? I’m thinking next stage is monitoring. Our our results day today is that if i skipped anything well, there’s there’s a process there’s the whole setup piece, which is your campaigns, i groups keywords creating your ads. But one side nuts and bolts piece of it is done gather it is the moderate peace and add words and google analytics are fantastic for that they show you clicked the rates that should you conversion rates if you have that set up impressions and something, and really manage actively and make wise decisions on a short term basis. And that’s what actually drew me, tio adwords and that grants program originally was the fact that i came from a auto background. We have the auto trader, which is it’s, a paper magazine, and anatoli, you’re hoping to see people come in and say, i came here because i read your magazine without words, jason first showing the dashboard the first day i’m like, okay, we can actually see that accent or people clicked this ad in this time frame. It went back to our website and took actions, so get the monitoring in the analytics part of is a really big piece it’s important? Okay, yeah, jason won’t you talk about this more? Yeah, what’s really great is that you can really make data driven kind of decisions, which is, you know, one of the hallmarks of working in digital, an example i would give us, you know, we we had run a campaign to get supporters to donate their air miles to our organization, and we worked off the assumption that, you know, people want to give their, you know, their airline miles, you know, the goodness of their hearts because, you know, you know, but what? We quickly realized that, you know, the think the ad copy was something along the lines of, like, hey, you know, i don’t need your airline miles to ah, charity focused on youth and, you know, the click to rates on that were abysmal, like they weren’t fantastic people kapin verdict, so we, you know, we sat down and went back and thought about it, and the ad copy that did perform better was, hey, i don’t have enough miles teo to go on a trip, you know, donate them to our charity instead, which reflected the kind of reality that some people face when you realize that you need like, maybe ten or fifteen thousand miles you wanna trip in just a thousand? Yeah. Dahna and they just want to, you know, do something good with it and, you know, because they can’t go anyway and that one converted three times better and it’s amazing to people to get, get the metrics around and really support some of those hypotheses around. You know how our people thinking, how are they behaving? And you can really test those out. And conversely, you know, sometimes you know the hypotheses that you come up, you know, fall completely flat as well. But it’s, you can always go back to the data rather than relying on some of these, you know, anecdotal, you know, kind of gut feelings. You can still have toast, got feelings, but you consistently validating them over and over again with the data, which makes us think, edwards, you know, one of most compelling platform’s teo, really experiment and run campaigns. Mark, you mentioned something. I want to die aggress to an add grants. You said adwords and add grants what’s with the ad grantspace program. Yeah, granted, we’re actually talking here for non-profits adwords is a platform. That google has five times in that sort of business is you and you pay for ads today, but i grantspace the non-profit program that’s just ten thousand dollars a month. Okay, exactly. Right. Keeping keeping a straight. All right. Okay. Well, all right. So now we can monitor results like day to day, right? I mean, we and at the end of a week, we can see one phrase, one word is performing quite well. Another is not so weii stop bidding on the on the underperformers that basically what what we do? Yeah, basically straight a be testing and if one odds working other ones not if it’s we’re talking incremental increases. Here is what we’re talking about. One point five click through rate versus the one point seven or two point three it’s not always an eighty twenty of this huge disparity. Okay, but over time, you can make these incremental increases and really improve your presence, and we’ll set up typically set up two ads per at group abila play them out like jason mention. We make assumptions about what’s going to work, and we’ll quickly learned that it does or it doesn’t, and they get to go on, we’ll pause the want ad, create new adam, obviously reset the process and move forward. So kind of a fun game that i have with my summer intern. So we get a summer intern every summer, and what i do is i challenge them to a competition, so every week will come up with an ad and you’ll see what the results are. And then we face off every week, so the lower performing at gets paused. And then we were both trying to create a better one every week. So, you know, by the end of the summer, you sort of have this, like, hunger games, you know, style of creation. You know, only the strongest survives the best click through and the best results and conversions. Okay, all right. Pathways, education canada benefits. All right, they’re the winners. All right, do-it-yourself time together. What? Let’s? See what else? You, uh, campaign what else can we say about a campaign but the ongoing but i think waken speak a bit to the google grantspace oh, program. So if you max oh, it’s, your ten thousand dollar grant does there’s a few of our requirements in there. You max out your the ten thousand dollar grant for two months out of the prior six months, a cz well as maintaining certain kind of quality metrics around new york like two rates and also setting up conversions non-profits are eligible to apply for the grants parole account, which is forty thousand dollars a month, which is nearly half a million dollars a year in in-kind ad revenue and, you know, that’s that’s a great way for, you know, larger non-profits or international facing non-profits to get additional kind of exposure grantspace pro it’s called that’s pro. Okay, ru is pathways, education and a grand pro now, yet we’re run away, but i know that a mark is pricked with several clients against pro against yeah, we we have a few that working with the grants provoc counts again. It’s the more than international reach or the national across the states reach the reality is a lot of our smaller non-profit to have a regional focus, a search based so there’s a limitation, sometimes near population, searching for programs and the relevancy in just the raw reach doesn’t there sometimes, but for the bigger the big organizations absolutely it’s. A fantastic way to actively manager account and and really reach out. Okay, okay. You are. You also spent some time talking about keeping your skills fresh. As as adwords evolves. What is that about? What happens? I think that the platform is constantly changing. And s o back in toronto, i teach a digital marketing classes in the evenings. And one of the things that i am costly, thomas students, is that in one working in adwords and analytics, that the platform can change at any time on do you have to adapt to it? That’s part of you know, being, you know, working in digital so an example would be, you know, if when, when google changes our algorithm for search, you know, you have to respond to that, and you read up on, you know what the new algorithm changes? Maybe an adjuster campaigns accordingly. Another one is sometimes the platform itself changes. So you log into the interface and, you know, the buttons of switch debate or there’s. A new feature or a new tab. It’s? Very disconcerting. Yeah. Especially people. We’re not, you know, native digital. You know, you just used to something for years. And then without an announcement, it’s different yeah, so you have to keep on constantly beating and adapting and everything, but part of it is that, you know, even though, you know, for people who have been doing it for a while, you know, and maybe a little bit disconcerting to, you know, have everything shift, i think it’s also an opportunity for people who are completely new to the platform, i mean, it hits the reset button for everyone, right? So if you’re if you’re brand new getting into edwards, i mean, it’s a great opportunity jumpin you’re at the same level of everyone else. So, you know, it’s it’s also, i think, a positive thing and, you know, for people, you do not feel intimidated about jumping into it cause i know that when you first log into the dashboard like it’s, a lot of buttons and everything, but, you know, it’s, you know, both of us, you know, we start doing adwords about seven years ago when we were working at a smaller non-profit and, you know, it’s been a constant kind of learning and evolution, and we’ve seen so much change on the platform, but you know, the more time you spend in it, you know, it’s, the analogy we used in in our in our session was, you know, we’re not the kind of, like superheroes i got bitten by a radioactive spider and wasn’t out with all these superpowers to do add words, we would be more like, you know, the batman or the ironman in-kind things where, you know, just a regular person who, you know, that man went away for, like, five years, you know, into the mountains to, you know, train and honed his skills and everything. So, you know, similarly, i think it’s a lot of reading, so i really start off with a you know, just that the ultimate guide to edward’s weii read that book cover to cover many several times. Okay, is there a i presume there is? Ah, blogged that block for edwards. So google keeps yeah, google keeps obl argast adwords dot black spot dot com and that’s not asleep. Grants focus but that’s where all the new updates come out. Oftentimes the update will come out a few days before they get around the block post. So part of the fun as your law again and you think things were happy? Like, oh, shoot where’s my reports button, but they are constantly changing things and they are constantly improving. That’s part of the fun of google’s, they’re always innovating and, you know, a few weeks ago they went from having ads on the top, the top the searches also and decide to just the top. So jason’s thing it’s an opportunity to have you say that’s what i noticed that s o for advertisers know we were used to having, you know, three or four spots across the top, plus five or six more down the side, and i were down too two or three or four at the top. It has become really competitive, so if you’re willing to spend the time and research and learn the program, you’re competitive, you could be up there. So it’s, not it’s, not it’s, not something you’re like. Jason said begin with immediately and be up there, but you can learn it quickly and to spend the time. That’s what? We both started a lot of reading a lot of time out the side of our deaths and a lot of time at night, you know? Just just learning the craft. So yeah, it is definitely a worthwhile investment in time because i think that for all the organizations i’ve been involved with after implementing the edwards grant, like, you see a good spike in traffic, you know, in your google analytics, because people are finding the organization and all the the services you offer much easier and better. And, you know, mark has a similar kind of experience with the organization that he works with, like just getting general traffic over to your site for better awareness and, you know, connecting with existing supporters who are looking to make a donation like no one, no one google’s like, you know, i have too much money, you know, how you know who can i give it to you? I don’t, yeah, yeah, me strategic, yeah, all right. Now you had a superhero theme your your session? I see now i am not a dc comics guy or, like, superheroes, guys. So were you challenging? You’re challenging audience members, too. I identify with a superhero name themselves a superhero now? Yeah, not actually named themselves. But the whole approach was that you could be a superhero as well, and you can learn the craft. You can hone your skills, you could be a superhero. And you really do have responsible of the digital marketing record in your organization. Tto learn this and you know it’s there. It’s free it’s free money from google’s free ahjumma, google if you dont having not using it is a bit of a disturbance. So step up. Be a superhero and you know, okay, take it up. What? What is excelsior in you’re in the god zoology is thin. The session description says excelsior that’s how you ended it, excelsior all right, so that was that was just like a superhero. Kind of like exclamation that comment is the marvel comics. Yeah, okay, sure. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Part of superhero theme is also, you know, the spider man quotation. You know, with great power comes great responsibility and that’s good if you have an opportunity to connect with someone and you miss that opportunity, you know, that could be someone who was searching for, you know, help with their rent to what their anxiety or depression or help, you know, with some of their personal challenges. You can’t you can’t be serious. You’re absolutely right. We have a couple more minutes left. What have we not talked about or what you want to see? More detail may be something we covered too quickly. You spent ninety minutes in a session, so i know you got more. I got more knowledge than nineteen and a half minutes. I think that one of the questions that we ask this, you know, how much time does this take, you know, to do adwords. And to be honest, i wish i could say that, you know, it’s, you know, you can always make you know the case and be like, okay, i’m going to spend this amount of hours and you know, you’re your organization is going to support you all the way to do it. But, you know, the reality is, you know, sometimes you get you know, you’re really busy and non-profits and no this’s another thing to do on top of the you know, the ten or twenty, you know, items on your list for the for the week. And i guess what i want when i want a share is that when we both started out doing add words like we really were doing it off the side of right ask you not to try and prove that viability that you know, to bring in new traffic for our site. So you two, i guess whatever advising people are looking into adwords is you don’t know that this way. Do you know if if you to have a passion for it and are willing to do, you know, a bit in your spare time to even, like, get the initial ball rolling like it’s worth it? You know, even just to prove the viability to the organization because i know could be hired to try, negotiate for that time and resources and initially to get started, okay, but you’re encouraging. Yeah, for sure and the other part, guys don’t expect you have to spend two, three, four hours per week and build all your campaigns the first it can be a slow burn, it’s non going grant you khun step a a few basic campaigns to start with you learn the accounts, learn how things work and build from there that’s often often times your clients of just become super overwhelmed because they want to have this full blown fifteen campaign hundred. Ads that i’m going to spend my ten thousand dollars but it’s a race today you don’t need to yeah, that’s actually very good point we always talk it’s not about spending ten thousand dollars of spending the money properly, and you might spend five dollars, a month or a thousand dollars a month. But if you’re reaching your target and the people need to find your finding, you dori with ten thousand dollars, worry about doing it properly and making sure you spend the money properly and i think one of the great things about antennas that there’s ah, a community of people that are using adwords a spell. So, you know, one of the things i was really important for our session is like it’s, not only to show people how to use adwords, the google adwords grant better, but also, you know, reminding people like, you know, don’t forget to reach out to those around you because we’re all facing similar challenges, and we’re all along, you know, a spectrum of you know, your movies to experts and, you know, whenever something changes in all the experts become newbies again and so making sure that, you know people recognize you, there’s always help, you know, just around the corner just, you know, don’t be afraid to ask for help when especially in the community for is there a, uh, maybe xero community of practice around add words, you know, in in ten? Not yet, but we should wait. Yeah, i mean, you know, they’re very liberal about ah, a couple people interested, and now they’ll support it. Ok, there isn’t yet, but yeah, the entire community is very giving. So even without a formal structure around around edwards, there’s still help. They’re absolutely just posted one of the one of the one of the community boards and examine you and ask, ask for help, ok? And the one thing i would mention is that american speak to some of the more advanced you. So just so you know, i think there’s there’s certain things that you khun dio with the free adwords grant, but it also helps pave the way for a charity to explore usage of paid advertising as well and that’s, you know, the edwards grant is a great way to sort of explore those initial kind of foundational steps before moving to the paid advertising model what you have demonstrated, no clear return on investment for you’re on schnoll can about what you can persuade the leadership that there’s value, then maybe they’ll start to invest some of the organization money. Is that where we’re headed? Yeah, exactly. A string itself is an expert, as you understand there’s gaps we might know jason talked about competing with the pity alone’s places are competing with payed counselors and professionals add words is a really competitive market, but if you can show yourself is an expert and say, you know what, here’s what we’ve done but there’s a few gaps over here would like to other, you know that on some paid, you know hyre big key words or potential duitz, um, banner advertising, the google display network, or even potentially do some advertising on youtube that’s all within the adwords platform on a number of my clients and people i work with have their google grants account and also separate google adwords account is paid and google’s fine with that they there’s no wish without as long as you’re not competing on the same let’s, same keywords in your paid account and you’re free account. Dahna wish you okay. Okay. So you can you can do both side by side. Exactly. All right. Um okay. We wrap it up there. You think we’ve anything else? Well, before we do any other good, you have to raise something that made me think any other good questions that came from from the audience in your session. You want toe one highlight. Eleven were around some of the kind of technical details and that there are quite a few kind of, you know, technical, administrative details, you know, related to, you know, properly administering your adwords accounts. The one question that did come up during our session was, you know, what if you’re inheriting account that, you know, it is quite old and, you know, it may not have been well administered in the past, you know, how should you even start to, you know, fix it up, and our suggestion for that was to, you know, to break it down into buckets and just start changing it one campaign at a time to try and use proper structures and applying very method a logical approach to it, rather than sort of the scattershot approach that may have been used, but if you’re inheriting a campaign that has been a total mess, theun, you know, chances are it’s not performing very well, you may as well just wait, you know, most paul’s most of the campaigns and restart everything on the other question that came as well was just, you know, are on general support. And one thing that i like some of the google reps here at ntc mentioned is that there is a support line as well. So, you know, it’s it’s amazing, because there was a lot of companies that don’t offer, like, direct phone support. We’re talking about telephone support. Yeah, from google. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was actually a number that you can call, you know, if you’re adwords grantee that, you know, if if you need help, you know, navigating, you know, the main panel or creating ads or whatever, you know that there is, you know, entire support team that you can pick up the phone and call and they will help navigate through some of those challenges. Excellent. Yeah. So that that number is available. Okay, that is rare. Yeah. Okay. All right. Let’s, leave it there. Thank you. Very much thanks, alright. Jason shim, associate director of digital strategy and alumni relations at pathways to education canada, and mark coleman, president of evergreen digital marketing. Thank you again, gents. Thanks, tony, thanks, thank you very much for being with us. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. Thanks so much, master. Your decision making coming up first. Pursuant is your last chance to check out the archive of the state of fund-raising midyear checkpoint that’s, their webinar with ceo trent ryker and senior vice president jennifer balat. Midyear fund-raising reports they came out last month. What’s most important to follow. What if you’re not hitting the benchmarks? How do you keep up your good pace if you are doing well in comparison with the rest of the community? Pursuant is data driven. They’re gonna help you succeed in these all important third and fourth quarters by making sense of the data that you are inundated with its at pursuing dot com quick resource is then webinars. Let them help you make sense of data. We be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers it’s a night of live music, dancing, standup comedy, spelling and raising money for your work. It’s a night devoted to your charity not a bunch of charities it’s for you that’s the purpose raise money for your good mission to help you make the world better. Watch the video at we b e spelling dot com and then talk to ceo alex career ninety nine to two four bees now time for tony stick too solitude i’m hitting this again this week. It’s essential if you want to do your best work helping other people, you’re in e-giving profession if you want to give, you got to take take time for yourself. It’s essential time away from phone, email, text, social media and work just me show your boss my video. I’ll get an extra view your boss will agree with you, they’ll see it. My way. And you get the time off. It’s called solitude, full cast and crew. Your boss is going to be impressed. You got to trust me. Just show this thing to your boss it’s at tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two here’s karen headed niimi and jamie nelson with master your decision making welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc that’s, of course that’s, the non-profit technology conference hosted by intend the non-profit technology network. This is also part of ntc conversations. We’re in san jose, california, at the convention center on my guests are karen already said, karen headed niimi and jamie nelson and their session topic is the science and art of decision making. Karen is director of business and human resource is at the inside education society of alberta and she’s sitting closest to me. And jamie nelson is an educator at the inside education society as well. Ladies, welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you. My pleasure. Indulge me, please. While i just highlight our swag item for this interview, which is from think shout it’s a t shirt from think shout and according to our outstanding piela hanna this is a minimalist star wars theme. She can point out that there’s ah, minimalist death star and a minimalist. What else is there? Millennium falcon. See it. See the minimalist millennium falcon, that’s, an mmf, minimalist millennium falcon. For those of you who are not on the video, i’m sorry. Go to real tony martignetti dot com r e a l, and you can watch the video there. It’ll be there shortly, so we’re adding this to our second day swag pile. All right, that’s. Where it goes, the science and art of decision making. Karen what? What are our challenges around decisionmaking? Well, i’ll tell you a little bit of the back story of this session, okay. Came to the non-profit technology conference last year for the first, and i am not a techie, but i want to learn more about trends and issues. And after it was over, i was very overwhelmed. And i thought it would be really need if there was a session on another life. Important topic to kind of give my brain a break. So weii well, had to choose this one, but i don’t know. You know what? It just came out of the universe, but i was here to make decisions about technology solutions, and i was having some trouble, and yeah, so i just thought, you know what? I need to learn more about this. And so it’s been a good long years journey. And here we are spent a year curating content a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Jamie wanted to share. What did you what have you learned in this curation process? So karen invited me in after she’s done. Quite. A bit of the legwork, which was wonderful on dh, so for me, it was really trying to look at the three different kind of areas of decision making, so we talked about the science on dh. Then we talked about what it’s like to take in additional information, and then we kind of talked about some of the the influences, and i think for me, one of the big things that i learned is is too to understand the systems that are happening every time that we face a decision. And that was really, really important because, like karen said, we’re here at the ntcdinosaur decisions a cz non-profits we’re faced with all kinds of, like, really important decisions on dh, so being able to kind of understand that process was really, really valuable as part of this whole, the building of the presentation, okay? So there’s, the science, the influences and the process all around our decision making. What did the count since you did most of the duration will give you the chance. What? What did you learn about the science of decision making? Well, it drew a lot from the work of dr daniel kahneman. Who? Wrote the book thinking fast and slow and he’s very respected in his field. He’s, a psychologist. And he also won the nobel prize in economics eggs for some of his work. So okay, smart guy. He basically proposed that our approaches to judgment and choice take their two mental systems or modes of thinking one of them is sort of fast and instinctual. Then the other is slower and deliberate. So that was sort of based on the different types of decisions we have to make, like whether whether it across the road now versus whether to buy a new home are hard wiring. You know, we could come free built right way. But we have different types of thes to these two methods of decision making. Break down into the types of decisions we have to make for sure, like one is mohr sort of natural. The fast thinking that we do is effortless is just something we do is we navigate our life. We drive the car down the road. Okay? Slow thinking is more deliberate, it’s more logical thinking through procedures. Little more algorithmic. So it takes more mental effort to do logical thinking decision making. It takes longer. Okay. More deliberative process. Yes, exactly. Um, is that all you learned on it for you in the years that all the science you master and that’s it? No. I mean, we boy, you could go on forever. I mean, a decision making is such a huge topic. You can look at it from a leadership aspect. Marketing behavioral economics. It’s huge. We just sort of focused in this session on, you know, information overload in an increasingly digital world. And how that’s we process that kind of information differently. Then then what? What we’re hardwired to do? Just perfect. Because that’s what you suffered after and twenty fifteen mental fatigue you were you were distressed and overloaded. Exactly, there’s. Not that you suffer from ntcdinosaur. The after effect was it was so much value, so much value. You were you were you were shell shocked. All right, um, so how can we start to help people in there decision making and let you know, let’s, take the the normal in our conversation. Let’s, take the normal day to day decisions. Not this. Something is simple minded is crossing the street. But, you know, some fair minded. Work decisions or personal decisions, but it is not his monumental is whether to buy a home, whether they have a child. But, you know, you know what? Like, what am i gonna have for dinner tonight or ah, whether i should have my parents over or, you know, i mean, average sort of day to day decisions, sort of in the middle of the spectrum, very fair, fair enough, very good point because our brain doesn’t doesn’t prioritize all the decisions we have to make in a day so we could be spending a lot of mental energy on things that are a trivial nature. Andi and then we don’t have enough reserves for the important ones, you know, when when we’re expending mental effort in our slow thinking we are we’re the brain is using twenty percent of our body’s energy, so we’re using up more of that energy in our in our logical processes. So if there’s a new way of losing weight, i just obsess about whether across the street now definitely can i can i lose twenty pounds? Not that i have a lot to lose, but but but, you know, yeah, i obsess about whether to put the stamp on the envelope right side up or upside down can i drop some pounds? You may drop some pounds. I know, i know. All kidding aside energy not calories, energy. Okay, assuming energy. Okay, but, i mean, you do. You are depleting some of your resources if you spend too much time on thing on decisions that just ultimately don’t matter that much. Ah, so, you know, some really good advice is to look at how you are. You know, how? First of all your energy when you’re making these decisions, you don’t want to make them when you’re tired and hungry? I mean, this is just obvious when you’re feeling emotional things, you can monitor about yourself. You know, in a busy life. We did go. Go, go, go, go. We don’t have this sort of transition zone to kind of recent reset our mental mode to the next transition zone. Right? We don’t. We don’t have. Okay. Okay, jamie, anything you want to add at this? Ah, scientific stage. Yeah, well, i think a lot of people can can relate to that. And that transferred really well from kind of talking about how as an individual, we make decisions and what influences us, whether it’s past memories, past experiences, you know, the time of the day how much you’ve had to eat, i think it really translates well when you’re talking about the non-profit world is a cz well, so if you are thinking about some major decisions that you need to make, you want to make sure that you’re you’re planning your board meeting an appropriate time of the day, you know, like so people are feeling fed if you feel really happy if you’re in a really good mood than that can actually make you less thoughtful in your decision making. And so we’re not saying that, you know, everybody should be kind of new thriller on happy in a board meeting, but just keeping these kinds of influences in mind. So in your day to day life, if you’re if you’re making decisions on what project to work on or if you’re making some of those bigger organization all decisions just keeping these influences in mind, khun b can actually have quite an impact, and that was really surprising to me to find out all of these external factors, aunt. How you know, just one of the stories that karen tell told in the session today was how if you’re holding a warm liquid like a cup of coffee? Yeah, you actually feel warmer feelings towards the people person that you’re chatting with, which makes sense culturally, like we get together over coffee all the time. And so and usually when someone asks you to go for coffee, it’s not because they want to yell at you, it’s, because they wanna have ah, positive, you know, productive kind of conversation, so that was was really interesting to think about and and that’s, what i loved about this session is it helped us kind of connect with our our own processes, but at the same time, we can think about how it influences our day to day work. Excellent, i liketo like that exploration of holding a warm liquid, what other other influences are there that we haven’t talked about yet? Well, we’re we’re influenced by almost everything in our environment, you know, our natural impulses when you know if i look at you and i see i might be able to detect that you’re angry, just buy one or two. Words that you say in the tone, you know, whether makes us happy if you ask someone if they’re happy and that’s a beautiful brightstep durney day, they’re more inclined to say that they’re happy than they are on a cloudy sort of moody day. You know, we are feeling beans before we are thinking beings and so, you know, this translates in our day to day life. All right, so how do we control some of these things? The one that we can control? We can control the weather, but our feelings, our state. How do we how do we sort of harness that? So that we do make better decisions? Well, you know a very simple thing you khun dio, is before you’re making a decision. Put yourself in a neutral state of mind. You know, you can. You can just say write down everything that you did yesterday, step by step in sequins i got up, i had breakfast, i drove to work had my day of work came home walk the dog you’re just sort of reset it’s like it’s like your computer, your rebooting your computer on then you’ve shifted your mental mode, you know? You’re not bringing in, maybe your emotion and your anxiety and whatever you’re kind of reset and then take the appropriate approach for what type of decision that that it is, you’re making. You want to just take a step back. You need this transition zone, you know, it’s hard, all the switching we do all the time, you know, between with multi task. And, you know, they’re really saying, well, what you’re doing is you’re you’re, you’re just doing attention switching, and that is very depleting in our mind, in our body. So, you know, having a little like, if you go to a therapist and you have an appointment, your appointments probably going to be about forty five minutes. It’s, not an hour, because they use some time to prepare. Have your session sometime to externalize what just happened and and collect some notes and be ready for the next person, you know, that’s logical. I see myself, yeah, i see my therapist for three hours, three hours, three times a day for a week, so i don’t know how she’s managing externalization she’s got just needs she needs to download, just like on the only person we could see each of those three days or practices suffering. I’m bolin pain, well, externalizing information. I mean it’s coming at us, and i mean, we we learn our brain like spatial, you know, and and the context of the environment that we learn in having all of this information coming at us. It’s. I mean, yes, lists are still important in this digital age. It’s still important to externalize some of what’s going on in your mind so that you can look at it as an observer in your environment, rather than you know, yeah, okay, yep, little dispassionate, yes, once removed, but but clearheaded. I see your head, all right. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they are levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m christine cronin, president of n y charities dot orc. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Anything else about these influences? Because we’re going now, we’re going to move to the process. Okay, but anything more about the influences? Well, i mean, biologically speaking, good moods. I mean, meant to us and our ancestors that environment was safe. We could we could relax a little. We could let our guard down, but that makes us less vigilant. You know, a bad mood. Singles tow us. Something’s wrong. I might need to protect myself. There might be a threat. I need to pay more attention. So, yeah, emotions. Like i said, we’re we’re thinking or feeling beings before we’re thinking. Okay? We moved to the process of of decision making. I mean, i feel like we’re sort of there, but okay, it sounds like yes. Yeah, well, i want to go there next. Well, one thing about the process, there is a lot of choice in today’s world, you know. Example, in the session we gave was going to pick out aspirin. You know, when you look at the isle of there’s, a spare for migraines and for sore muscles. And for all the different reasons you might have an ailment. But ultimately, maybe it’s the same. Product on homes have thousands and thousands of our possessions um, there’s research that shows that actually having too much choice leads us to make poor decisions, and we’re also dissatisfied with them. So having in the process fewer, fewer good options, but just a few and fewer variables, okay, karen is nodding a lot what you wantto into this? Well, i think that that ah, really translates well, when we’re thinking about that, the options that a lot of non-profits faces thinking, well, we can go in this direction, and we could do this kind of program or or use this kind of tactic, and what karen saying is is really like pairing that down and then making that decision and and the process of paring it down requires a decision as well. But i think a lot of us can agree that after a brainstorming session, it’s pretty obvious what some of the best options are, and then kind of taking a moment and taking a break, especially in, like, a working meeting where everyone has a chance to kind of reset and then that makes that actually makes the decision process easier on dh, that is really profound that sometimes people just want to kind of powerthru and say, it’s, getting towards the end of the day like we just need to make a decision. And that’s exactly right, you just need to make a decision. So in order to do that, you have to kind of think about all of these, all of the influences that air that are wrapped up in that. Okay, okay, we still have some time together. You spent ninety minutes on this and in your session, so has it goes quick, here’s a lot more to say and have enough time. This well, i mean, okay, the other the other part that we touched on in the session of the end was about creativity, because how can you choose the best option if you haven’t even imagined it? So part of it is developing some flexible thinking skills to, you know, be experimenting a little whimsical. And, um, you know, that requires sometime sometime in a calm mental state to do that kind of creative exploration. Eso we didn’t exercise in the session. We just ask everyone, what could you do with a marble? You know, similar to google? Asking what? Can you do with a pencil? Let’s? Try and see what we get. And some of the answers were like super unique. Jamie, can you ask the audience? Okay, what can we do with a marble? So it’s kind of fun? Yeah. Some people went really practical right away. Like i could hold it. I could put it in my mouth. I could put it in my head. I could put it on the table on dh. Then other folks also kind of went more creative right away. So one of our participants said you could write a haiku about it, which i she’s like it’s, not that left field, but but in the activity they had on an opportunity to work just by themselves and then to share and build upon. And i think what was really apparent is that a lot of the folks who participated said that that once they connected and started to build upon existing structure, then it it was really additive and really complimentary. And they started to go in more creative places. Yeah. Um, you know, along this line we were talking about the complexity of problems today and a lot of our problems are crossing borders and what is required. You know, i read something today about borderless leadership on dh you need a different skill set to address some of these problems. And so some of the things we talked about beyond creativity, where was critical thinking skills, you know, to look at all of the information coming at us and to be able to discern what is true and what is not true, what are some reliable sources, you know, and to be able to synthesise some of this information together with that we talked about being able to ask good questions, because that helps you ultimately make a better decision if you can clarify things so it’s kind of a lost art, you know, we reward people at work for having the answer rather than having a really good question and children asked several hundred questions a day on. Well, you probably ask a lot as an interviewer, but i do know i’m also child. I’m asking a thousand questions today in our day today, life like way asked everyone in the room, like, see if you can keep track of how many questions you ask today is probably going to be very few. Ah, very good skill to develop question answering how does that help us make better decisions? Jamie well, for me, i mean, in our work with the inside education, we we ask a lot of questions, so we do environmental programs with our students on we talked about natural resources in the environment and in that is this critical thinking piece. And so i found that if a student asked me a question and i turn it back to the rest of the classroom or or answered them with another question that it helps start to kind of peel back the layers and let’s folks realize they start to consider the question from a different perspective. So if i used the example in the session, you know, the first time a student asked me, well, what’s the difference between coal and charcoal? First of all, i couldn’t believe that i didn’t know the answer and it’s not a life changing thing, you know, like, i’ve gone so far without knowing that, and that was fine, but once i realised that it made me think to myself like, what else don’t i know about the world? Like, why don’t i know the difference between those two things and that’s the power of questions is that i know, like karen said in a professional life, sometimes if you’re if you’re in a meeting and and there’s questions about the reasoning behind the project that you’re working on, folks, khun bristle they can feel really defensive, but the power of asking a really good question is that it expands that horizon, and it helps you start to think about the bigger picture on dh then in that you’re able to think creatively and shift the paradigm and that that can only be helpful, you know? Okay, okay, we still have a couple minutes left. Let’s tease out. Come on. Did ninety minutes in a session. We’ll back on non-profit radio listeners. Yeah, never. I’ll never have your back-up billet. All related. Teo related to good questions and critical thinking is really about how we learn on dh and, you know, if you notice someone’s thinking process, if if if there’s a bias or they they they have a distorted reasoning, you know, we get defensive when people point out our errors. So the best way to help people see that they have maybe a flaw in their thinking is too created a learning experience for them to see the insight for themselves. Tohave a lightbulb moment an ah ha moment your mental mode shifts more easily when you discover it for yourself. How do you create this kind of moment? Teachers are good at creating this moment. What teachers are good you turned away from the mic, she said teachers were go to creating this moment on, i guess one of the ways that that i do that in a classroom with students is i you know, if we if we ask in opening question like what’s, a type of natural resource that we used to create energy, you know, some kids might have the answer right away and then others will be like lightning and it’s like, okay, so why did you say lightning? We don’t get electricity from from lightning, but why that? And then it helps them instead of saying no, you’re wrong because they’re they’re right. Lightning is electricity, but instead then we can kind of have a conversation about it, and then the student can come to the conclusion themselves working can work. Through the process themselves and say, okay, wait a second that doesn’t make sense, there’s nobody running around trying to capture lightning so that we can have power in our homes, but in that it doesn’t it’s that experience, and i think it resonates more with a student. I mean, this is such a trivial example, but like karen said, if, if there’s this this bias that occurs or this kind of error in thinking, i think everyone can relate to have someone if you have ah colleagues saying you’re wrong, the rest of the conversation doesn’t always go really well. So instead, you know yeah, you came, you can and it’s not avoiding the conversation, it’s just helping them kind of see, because that’s, the only way that that folks can kind of overcome is that if they experience that process themselves, it can be really hard to try to convince someone that they’re wrong and you’re right. But by building that experience by kind of understanding how our mind works and how thoughts are created, you can you can help increase that knowledge and expand the conversation instead of shutting it down and making it kind of antagonistic. Okay, okay. That sounds like a pretty good place to wrap up. Yeah, i think bernie’s consolation like you. All right. See, the closest to me is karen headed niimi, director of business and human resource is at the inside education society of alberta. And if the same society is jamie nelson who’s, an educator at inside education, ladies, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you. And this is that i thank you for being with us. Twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. Thank you. Next week. Definitely not fermentation. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. And by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We b e spelling dot com. Our creative producer is climb hyre off. Sam liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez on our music is by scots time be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and i agree dahna what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist. It took two or three years for foundation staff, sort of dane toe add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sabiston. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for August 12, 2016: Master Google AdWords & Master Your Decision Making

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Google has $10,000 of free advertising for you each month. Are you taking advantage? Learn about the program and how to plan your campaign. Also find the best search terms to bid on and stay on track as AdWords evolves. At the 2016 Nonprofit Technology Conference I talked to Jason Shim, associate director of digital strategy and alumni relations at Pathways to Education Canada, and Mark Hallman, president of Evergreen Digital Marketing.

 

 

Karin Hedetniemi & Jayme Nelson: Master Your Desicion Making

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You make hundreds of decisions a day: some simple and some complex. What’s the science and art behind making good ones? We discuss how to pare down choices and ask yourself good questions. Karin Hedetniemi and Jayme Nelson are from the Inside Education Society of Alberta. Karin is director of business and human resources and Jayme is an educator. This is also from 16NTC. It’s NTC Canada Day on Nonprofit Radio.

 

 


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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer accident, missus if you unnerved me with the idea that you missed today’s show master google adwords google has ten thousand dollars of free advertising for you each month. Are you taking advantage? Learn about the program and how to plan your adwords campaign also find the best search terms to bid on and stay on track. As adwords evolves. At the twenty sixteen non-profit technology conference, i talked to jason shim, associate director of digital strategy and alumni relations at pathways to education canada and more coleman, president of evergreen digital marketing and master your decision making you make hundreds of decisions a day, some simple, some complex what’s the science and art behind making good ones. You’ll learn how to pare down choices and ask yourself good questions. Karen headed niimi and jamie nelson are from the inside education society of alberta. Karen is director of business and human resources, and jamie is an educator. This is also from sixteen ntc today is ntcdinosaur abila day on non-profit. Radio attorneys take to love your work we’re sponsored by pursuing full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant to dot com. Here are jason shimanto, mark holman from auntie si welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen auntie si the non-profit technology conference. We’re also part of ntcdinosaur say, shin, we’re in san jose, california, at the convention center on day three of the conference. My guests now are jason shim and mark holman will meet them very shortly first have to shout out today this this interview’s, not just one a day, but one interview swag item, which is a ah brand dahna and it’s from ah on good from on good many ways to wear it and also ah ah, yo, yo alighted yo yo, which we don’t have enough don’t know brought enough frame, i can’t demonstrate my you’ll go, yo, yo prowess! I used to be able to walk the dog doo around the world, you know, rocket out horizontal butt back-up you’ll have to take my word for it that i can still do it, so this joins our swag pile. All right, jason shevawn jason is associate director of digital strategy and alumni relations at pathways to education in canada. Thank you. Very welcome back, jason. Thank you. Believe it was two years ago. It ntcdinosaur good, mary and more. Coleman is president of evergreen digital marketing. Mark, welcome to the show. Thanks, tony. My pleasure. All right, gents, we’re talking about how to be a google adwords superhero waken rock this now let’s talk first about the ten thousand dollars per month program for non-profits who who knows this program best. Is it free? How do we where we find it? What is this? Who knows the best? Go ahead. Yeah. Basically it’s ten thousand dollars of in-kind advertising given by google every month. It’s rule over grantspace oh, there’s there’s no limit to it as long as you keep me in the grant requirements and basically it’s in-kind so the little adds it show up on the top the google search results and that’s what you get so it’s a great program be part of. Okay, where can we find info for people who’ve never heard of this before? Google’s website is, i believe it’s google dot com slash non-profits or for canada’s, google dot cn non-profits okay, and you get ten thousand dollars a month? Yeah, a month free. Edwards. Yeah, free average it’s. Not a cash it’s non-cash granted in-kind advertising, but every month limited to three hundred twenty nine dollars per day. But every month on going, as long as you meet the program requirements, there is no expiration date. Okay, did you find it very hard to qualify if you’re i mean, if you’re in the u s and your five o one c three or if you’re in canada and you have the wherever the equivalent designation is, um, you’re a bona fide non-profit is that about all it takes are very much if you meet the requirements for being a registered charity, then you’re pretty much good to go. Okay, well, that’s outstanding, alright, i’m not sure how widely known that is, but it is now because everybody listens to the show. If they’re not, then they do. They ignored at their peril because then i don’t know. All right? Well, let’s, talk about some campaigning. Where should we start with our google now? We’ve got three hundred eighty nine dollars a day forever. Where should we start our campaign? So i think that one of the first things to start off with is really identifying you know what your organization’s your mission is? And then how you can align some of those add words to to align with, you know, with that that mission. So for example, for pathways to education canada, you know, our mandate is to help high school students that they’re living in low income communities to graduate from high school. So anyone searching for any topics that are related to, you know, dropout prevention or helping the high school students day in school or people that are living in communities that we serve, you know, whenever there searching for nothing’s really to education and drop you? No, we make sure that we sort of an ad. So, you know, they confined our resources more easily and that we can get access to nothing’s like tutoring and mentoring and, you know, access to scholarships and things like that. So it really helps connect people with the resource is out in the community, you know? Yeah, how do we think broadly about what keywords people might be searching for? Him and, you know, i’m sure every organization could name half a dozen off the top of their head, but how do we go beyond that? Maybe listening on twitter? I don’t know. You tell me, how did we go beyond what it comes to it comes to mind immediately. I think, it’s, you can start with a sort of ah thought experiment and just trying to get into that the heads of other people and really, you know, using your, you know, just general empathy. So when you, for example, mark and i, we used to live in a way we’re sort of used to work together in kitchen waterloo at a place called cries in family counseling services. And what we did was we were trying tio create ad campaigns to target people who are looking for things that couples counseling. Nothing is the market for key which couples counseling. You know, the bid rate is quite high, you know, for it. And then when you think about it, you know, by the times a couple realizes they need couples counseling. You know, you may have to pay more than what you have for those kind of words. You rewind it, you know, a month, six months prior. You know what? What kind of things might that couple be going through? And, you know, trying we wind up that way. So the kind of things maybe bidding for it’s, like, you know, i’m having challenges, you know, communication with i suppose, you know, how do you resolve money issues? Fundamental difference of opinion about children. You know, things like that that, you know, you dahna you at the end of the path, you know, but for people who would require a couple’s counseling you how to get to them a little bit earlier to kapin act them with the organization. So really it’s just a lot of service sitting there and thinking, oh, i love that idea of thinking ahead because you actually beat the competition that is paying the higher price for couples. You know, for that phrase couples counseling, absolutely relationship counselling you can get. You can beat the competition if you’re thinking a couple of months earlier. What are they talking about? Like money? Children finance center? Yeah, cool. On another example, i can provide and american and speak to this. Ah, bit as well. When we part of the service that were offered was credit counseling, and the thing is, like payday loan places like they’re they’re willing to bid up to, like fifteen dollars per click and the google lad words eyes limited to two dollars per click maximum. Okay, so you really have to be extremely creative when you’re thinking about, you know, for some of those services where you also, you know, essentially competing against for-profit right on do you know, how can you think about, you know, okay, so for people that are running into credit issues down the road, you know, what might have looked like six months prior? And, you know, maybe, you know, people are searching for, you know, troubles making their bills or looking for, you know, initial, you know, information about me, you know, loan consolidation or things like that, you know, before they get into that critical, you know, the moment where you know, they’re they’re living on sort of impact back loans and yeah, so it’s just a lot of thinking and but one of the greatest tips that i think we received when we first discovered hardware it’s from the ultimate guide. To adwords by perry marshall, you know, way highly recommend that book through the ultimate guide to edwards. Yeah, it’s called okay. And if one of them was read cosmo magazine and, you know, i think cosmo magazine provides a lot of lessons around, you know that the way that it cost one magazine covers designed, you know, it’s it’s designed to entice, you know, people that are going through a shopping check out to pick up a copy immediately, and i mean, it’s been the best selling woman’s back-up dean since nineteen seventy to know so, you know, they really done that in the print industry on the transits quite well into design in-kind adwords campaigns, you know as well you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it, tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website. Philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Dahna oppcoll is pathways to education canada using google edwards ten thousand dollar month program? Yeah, yeah, ok, and mark, you have other clients that are as well, successfully, yeah, a number a number and you’re going with jason’s saying as well to part of the big part of adwords is trying to think of you know how how our people need our programs and services are looking for us if you’re doing banner ads or magazine dad, you have the opportunity kind of show what your your services are in google search is very specific, you can’t think of what our people looking for it so how two’s the wise all the questions for help versus the opportunity of having made a scene at where you can put a big, you know, big, full page description of what your services are. This is really an opportunity for people who are actively searching for your programs and services and bring them right back to website. So it’s a really important program tohave from non-profits okay, after we’ve set on decided on a set of at words, phrases that we can afford to bid on how do we i’m thinking next stage is monitoring our our results day today is that if i skipped anything but, well, there’s there’s a process there’s the whole setup piece, which is your campaigns, i groups keywords creating your ads, but one side nuts and bolts piece of it is done gather it is the moderate peace and add words and google analytics are fantastic for that they show you click the rates that should you conversion rates if you have that set up impressions and something, and really manage actively and make wise decisions on a short term basis and that’s what actually drew me, tio adwords and that grants program originally was the fact that i came from a auto back-up under we have the auto trader, which is it’s, a paper magazine, and anatoli, you’re hoping to see people come in and say, i came here because i read your magazine without words, jason first showing the dashboard the first day i’m like, okay, we can actually see that accent or people clicked this ad in this time frame. It went back to her web sight and took actions, so get the monitoring in the politics part of is a really big piece it’s important? Okay, yeah. Jason, won’t you talk about this more? Yeah. What’s really great is that you can really make data driven kind of decisions, which is, you know, one of the hallmarks of working in digital, an example i would give us, you know, we we had run a campaign to get supporters to donate their air miles to our organization, and we worked off the assumption that, you know, people want to give their, you know, their airline miles, you know, the goodness of their hearts because, you know, you know, but what? We quickly realized that, you know, they think the ad copy was something along the lines of, like, hey, you know, i don’t need your airline miles to ah, charity focused on youth and, you know, the click through rate on that were abysmal, like they weren’t fantastic people converting, so we, you know, we sat down and went back and thought about it, and the ad copy that did perform better was, hey, i don’t have enough miles teo to go on a trip, you know, donate them to our charity instead, which reflected the kind of reality that some people face when you realize that you need, like maybe ten or fifteen thousand miles. You wanna trip in two thousand? Yeah, and they just want to, you know, do something good with it. And, you know, because they can’t go anyway, and that one converted three times better and it’s amazing to be able to get death the metrics around that and really support some of those hypotheses around. You know how hard people thinking, how are they behaving? And you can really test those out. And conversely, you know, sometimes you know the hypotheses that you come up, you know, fall completely flat as well. But it’s, you can always go back to the data rather than relying on sir. These, you know, anecdotal, you know, kind of gut feelings. You can still have toast, got feelings, but you consistently validating them over and over again with the data, which makes us think, edwards, you know, when the most compelling platform’s teo really experiment and run campaigns. Mark, you mentioned something. I want to die aggress to an add grants. You said adwords and add grants what’s with the ad grantspace program. Yeah, granted, we’re actually talking here for non-profits adwords is a platform that google has five times in that sort of business is, you know, and you can pay for ads today. But i grantspace the non-profit program that’s just ten thousand dollars month. Exactly. Okay, exactly. All right, e-giving a straight. All right. Okay, well, all right. So now we can monitor results like day to day, right? I mean, we and at the end of a week, we can see one phrase, one word is performing quite well. Another is not so weii stop bidding on the on the underperformers that basically what what we do? Yeah, basically straight a be testing and if one odds working other ones not if it’s we’re talking incremental increases. Here is what we’re talking about. One point five click through rate versus the one point seven or two point three it’s not always an eighty twenty of this huge disparity. Okay, but over time, you can make these incremental increases and really improve your presence, and we’ll set up typically set up two ads per at group abila play them out like jason mention. We make assumptions about what’s going to work, and we’ll quickly learned that it does or it doesn’t and they get to go on. We’ll pause the one ad, create new adam, obviously reset the process and move forward. So kind of a fun game that i have with my summer intern. So we get a summer intern every summer, and what i do is i challenge them to a competition. So every week will come up with an ad and you’ll see what the results are. And then we face off every week, so the lower performing at gets paused. And then we were both trying to create a better one every week. So, you know, by the end of the summer, you sort of have this, like, hunger games, you know, style of creation. You know, only the strongest survives the best click through and the best results and conversions. Okay, all right. And pathways education canada benefits. All right, they’re the winners. All right, do-it-yourself time together. What? Let’s? See what else? You, uh, campaign what else can we say about a campaign but the ongoing but i think waken speak a bit to the google grantspace oh, program. So if you max oh, it’s, your ten thousand dollar grant does there’s a few. Of requirements in there, you max out your the ten thousand dollar grant for two months out of the prior six months a cz well as maintaining certain kind of quality metrics around new york, like two rates, and also setting up conversions non-profits are eligible to apply for the grant bro count, which is forty thousand dollars a month, which is nearly half a million dollars a year in in-kind ad revenue and, you know, that’s that’s a great way for, you know, larger non-profits or international facing non-profits to get additional kind of exposure grantspace pro it’s called that’s pro. Okay, ru is pathways education dahna grand pro now, yet we’re out run away, but i know that america is a bricked with several clients against pro against yeah, we have a few that working with the grands prix accounts again. It’s the more than international reach or the national across the states reach the reality is a lot of our smaller non-profit to have a regional focus, a search based so there’s a limitation, sometimes near population, searching for programs and the relevancy in just the raw reach doesn’t there sometimes, but for the bigger the big organizations absolutely it’s a fantastic way to actively manager account and and really reach out. Okay, okay. You are. You also spent some time talking about keeping your skills fresh. As as adwords evolves. What is that about what happens? I think that the platform is constantly changing. And s o back in toronto, i teach additional marking classes in the evenings. And one of the things that i tell my students is that in one working in adwords and analytics, that the platform can change at any time on do you have to adapt to it? That’s part of you know, being, you know, working in digital. So an example would be, you know, if when, when google changes algorithm for search, you know, you have to respond to that. And you read up on, you know what the new algorithm changes? Maybe an adjuster campaigns accordingly. Another one is sometimes the platform itself changes. So you log into the interface and, you know, the buttons of switch debate or there’s. A new feature or a new tab. It’s? Very disconcerting. Yeah. Especially people. We’re not, you know, native digital. You know, you just used to something for years. And then without an announcement, it’s different. Yeah, so you have to keep on constantly beating and adapting and everything, but part of it is that, you know, even though, you know, for people who have been doing it for a while, you know, and maybe a little bit disconcerting to, you know, have everything shift, i think it’s also an opportunity for people who are completely new to the platform, i mean, it hits the reset button for ever, right? So if you’re if you’re brand new getting into edwards, i mean, it’s a great opportunity jumpin you’re at the same level of everyone else. So, you know, it’s it’s also, i think, a positive thing for people you do not feel intimidated about jumping into it cause i know that when you first log into the dashboard it’s like it’s, a lot of buttons and everything, but you know it, it’s, you know, both of us, you know, we start doing adwords about seven years ago when we were working at a smaller non-profit and, you know, it’s been a constant kind of learning and evolution, and we’ve seen so much change on the platform, but, you know, the more time you spend in that, you know, it’s, the analogy we used in in our in our session was, you know, we’re not the kind of like superheroes i got bitten by a radioactive spider and wasn’t dad with all these superpowers to do add words, we would be more like, you know, the batman or the ironman in-kind things where, you know, just a regular person who, you know, that man went away for, like, five years, you know, into the mountains to, you know, train and honed his skills and everything. So, you know, similarly, i think it’s a lot of reading so really is start off with a you know, just that the ultimate guide to edward’s weii read that book cover to cover many several times. Okay, is there a i presume there is? Ah, blogged that block for edwards so google keeps yeah, google keeps obl argast adwords dot black spot dot com and that’s not asleep. Grants focus but that’s where all the new updates come out. Oftentimes the update will come out a few days before they get around the block post. So part of the fun as you log in. And you think things were happy? Like, oh, shoot where’s my reports button, but they are constantly changing things and they are constantly improving. That’s part of the fun of google’s, they’re always innovating and, you know, a few weeks ago they went from having ads in the top the stop the search is off and the side too, just the top. So jason’s thing it’s an opportunity to have you say that’s what i noticed that s o for advertisers, you know, we were used to having, you know, three or four spots across the top, plus five or six more down the side. Now we’re down to two or three or four at the top has become really competitive, so if you’re willing to spend the time and research and learn the program, you’re competitive, you could be up there. So it’s, not it’s, not it’s, not something you’re like. Jason said begin with immediately and be up there, but you can learn it quickly and to spend the time. That’s what? We both started a lot of reading a lot of time out the side of our deaths and a lot of time at night, you know? Just just learning the craft. It is definitely a worthwhile investment in time because i think that for all the organizations i’ve been involved with after implementing the edwards grant, like, you see a good spike in traffic, you know, in your google analytics, because people are finding the organization and all the the services you offer much easier and better. And, you know, mark has a similar in-kind of experience with the organization that he works with, like, just getting general traffic over to your site for better awareness and, you know, connecting with existing supporters who are looking to make a donation like no one, no one google’s like, you know, i have too much money, you know, how you know who can i give it to you? I don’t, yeah, yeah, me strategic, yeah, all right, now you had a superhero theme your your session? I see now i am not a dc comics guy or, like, superheroes, guys, so hyre were you challenging? You’re challenging audience members, too identify with a superhero name themselves a superhero now? Yeah, not actually named themselves, but the whole approach was that you could be a superhero as well, and you can learn the craft, you can hone your skills, you could be a superhero and you really do live responsibly. The digital marketing record in your organization to learn this and, you know, it’s there it’s free it’s free money from google’s free ahjumma, google if you dont having not using it is a bit of a disservice. So step up, be a superhero and you know, okay, take it up. What is excelsior in? You’re in the ghazal jutze river in the session description says excelsior that’s how you ended it, excelsior all right, so that was that was just like a superhero. Kind of like exclamation that comment is the marvel comics. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Part of superhero theme is also, you know, the spider man quotation. You know, with great power comes great responsibility and that’s good if you have an opportunity to connect with someone and you missed that opportunity, you know, that could be someone who was searching for, you know, help with their rent to what their anxiety or depression or help you with some of their personal challenges. Kapin you can’t be serious. You’re absolutely way. Have a couple more minutes left. What have we not talked about or what you want to see? More detail may be something we covered too quickly. You spent ninety minutes in a session, so i know you got more. You got more knowledge than nineteen and a half minutes. I think that one of the questions that we ask this, you know, how much time does this take, you know, to do adwords. And to be honest, i wish i could say that, you know, it’s, you know, you can always make you know the case and be like, okay, i’m going to spend this amount of hours and you know, you’re your organization is going to support you all the way to do it. But, you know, the reality is, you know, sometimes you get you know, you’re really busy and non-profits and no this’s another thing to do on top of the you know, the ten or twenty, you know, items on your list for the for the week. And i guess what i want when i want a share is that when we both started out doing add words like we really were doing it off the side of my desk, you know, to try and prove that viability that you know, to bring in new traffic for our site. So you two, i guess whatever advising people are looking into adwords is you don’t know that this way. Do you know if if you to have a passion for it and are willing to do, you know, a bit in your spare time to even, like, get the initial ball rolling like it’s worth it? You know, even just to prove the viability to the organization because i know could be hired to try negotiate for that time and resources and initially to get started, okay, but you’re encouraging. Yeah, for sure and the other part, guys don’t expect you have to spend two, three, four hours per week and build all your campaigns the first it can be a slow burn, it’s non going grant you khun step a a few basic campaigns to start with you learn the accounts, learn how things work and build from there that’s often often times your clients of just become super overwhelmed because they want to have this full blown fifteen campaign hundred ads that i’m going to spend my ten thousand dollars, but it’s a race today you don’t need to you and that’s actually very good point too. We always talk it’s not about spending ten thousand dollars of spending the money properly, and you might spend five dollars, a month or a thousand dollars a month. But if you’re reaching your target and the people need to find your finding, you dori with ten thousand dollars, worry about doing it properly and make you spend the money properly. And i think one of the great things, both antennas, that there’s ah, a community of people that are using adwords this well. So, you know, one of the things i was really important for our session is like it’s, not only to show people how to use adwords, the google adwords grant better, but also, you know, reminding people like, you know, don’t forget to reach out to those around you because we’re all facing similar challenges, and we’re all along, you know, a spectrum of you know your movies to experts and you know, whenever something changes and all the experts become newbies again and so making sure that, you know people recognize you. There’s always help. You know, just around the corner just, you know, don’t be afraid to ask for help when especially in the country. Nufer is there a, uh, maybe xero community of practice around add words, you know, in in ten? Not yet, but we should yeah, but i mean, you know, they’re very liberal about ah, a couple of people interested, and now they’ll support it, ok, there isn’t yet, but yeah, the entire community is very giving. So even without a formal structure around around edwards, there’s still help. They’re absolutely just posted one of the one of the one of the community boards you any and ask ask for help, ok? And the one thing that i would mention is that american speak to some of the more advanced you said, just so you know, i think there’s there’s certain things that you khun dio with the free adwords grant, but it also helps pave the way for a charity to explore usage of paid advertising as well, and that, you know, the edwards grant is a great way to sort of explore those initial kind of foundational steps before moving to the paid advertising or what you have. Demonstrated clearly return on investment for you’re on schnoll can about what you can persuade the leadership that there’s value, then maybe they’ll start to invest some of the organization money. Is that where we’re headed exactly? A string itself is an expert, as you understand there’s gaps, we might know jason talked about competing with the pity loans places are competing with payed counselors and professionals add words is a really competitive market, but if you can show yourself is an expert and so you know what, here’s what we’ve done, but there’s a few gaps over here would like to other, you know that on some paid, you know hyre big key words or potential duitz, um, banner advertising, the google explain network or even potentially do some advertising on youtube that’s all within the average platform, i’m in a number of my clients and people i work with have their google grants account and also separate google adwords account is paid and google’s fine with that, they there’s no wish with that as long as you’re not competing on the same let’s name keywords in your paid account and you’re free account latto issue okay, okay, so you can you can do both side by side. Exactly. All right, exactly. Okay, should we wrap it up there? You think we’ve anything else? Well, before we do any other good, you have to raise something that made me think any other good questions that came from from the audience in your session. You want toe one highlight eleven were around some of the kind of technical details and that there are quite a few kind of, you know, technical, administrative details, you know, related to, you know, properly administering your adwords account. So one question that did come up during our session was, you know, what? If you’re inheriting account that, you know, it is quite old and, you know, it may not have been well administered in the past, you know, how should you even start to, you know, fix it up, and our suggestion for that was to, you know, to break it down into buckets and just start changing it one campaign at a time to try and use proper structures and applying very method a logical approach to it, rather than sort of the scattershot approach that may have been used. But if you’re inheriting a campaign that has been a total mess, then, you know, chances are it’s not performing very well. You may as well just wait. You know, most paul’s most of the campaigns and restart everything. Three other question that came as well, it was just, you know, are on general support. And one thing that i like some of the google reps here at ntc mentioned is that there is a support line as well. So, you know, it’s it’s amazing, because there was a lot of companies that don’t offer, like, direct phone support. We’re talking about telephone support. Yeah. So from google. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was actually a number that you can call, you know, if you’re adwords grantee that you know, if if you need help navigating, you know the main panel or creating ads or whatever, you know that there is, you know, entire support team that you can pick up the phone and call and they will help navigate through summer. The challenge is excellent. So that that number is available. Okay, that is rare. Yeah. Okay. All right. Let’s, leave it there. Thank you very much. Thanks. Alright. Jason shim, associate director. Of digital strategy and alumni relations at pathways to education canada, and mark coleman, president of evergreen digital marketing. Thank you again, gents. Thanks, tony. Thanks, thank you very much for being with us. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. Thanks so much, master. Your decision making is coming up first. Pursuant, like google adwords and making good, smart decisions pursuant helps you raise more money. Their tool velocity keeps you on task. Working toward that fund-raising goal. It was developed for pursuing fund-raising consultants so valuable for their client campaigns that they rolled it out directly to you. You, the small midsize shop. Use it yourself and get the value you need without the consultant. Check out velocity at pursuant dot com. Time now for tony’s take two. Do you love your work? I hope you do. I hope that you do something that engages you inspires you that you just feel so strongly about, you know that we throw the word passion around so much, but you just feel it that look, not every single day you’re going to work out, wake up some days and say, god, i hate this job. Oh, god, i wish i could just stay in bed, pull the covers over, but nine or ten days or eight or nine or ten days out of ten do you wake up and you just feel great about the work that you’re going to be doing the lives we’re saving, the the transformation, the change that you’re making in the world. I hope you feel good about it. I hope you feel great about it. Not just like it. I hope you love your work. Oh, and if you don’t, if you’re among the many who i see great faced on the subways, they don’t look like they’re happy going to work. I urge you to look to make that change small steps a little bit of a time start to see the light at the end of the tunnel i just urge you tow love the work that you’re doing i hope you do that’s tony’s take two live listener love i gotta send it out the live love goes out all the time so grateful for our live listeners listening right now at this moment now on august twelfth live listen love to you podcast pleasantries there can’t be live love without podcast pleasantries it can’t be just like the affiliate affections that air coming up podcast pleasantries to the over ten thousand listeners in the time shift. I’m very glad you’re with me pleasantries to you and those affiliate affections are multiple many am and fm stations throughout the country. Let your station know that you’re listening so that they know non-profit radio is valuable in their weekly schedule affections to our affiliate listeners. Here are karen headed niimi and jamie nelson with master your decision making welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntc that’s, of course that’s, the non-profit technology conference hosted by intend the non-profit technology network. This is also part of ntc conversations we’re in san jose, california, at the convention center on my guests are karen already said karen headed niimi and jamie nelson, and their session topic is the science and art of decision making. Karen is director of business and human resources at the inside education society of alberta and she’s sitting closest to me and jamie nelson is an educator at the inside education society as well, ladies, welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you. My pleasure. Indulge me, please. While i just highlight our swag item for this interview, which is from think shouts a t shirt from think shout! And according to our outstanding piela hanna, this is a minimalist star wars theme. She can point out that there’s ah, minimalist death star and a minimalist. What else is there? Millennium falcon. See it! See the minimalist millennium falcon that’s, an mmf minimalist millennium falcon. For those of you who are not on the video, i’m sorry. Go to real tony martignetti dot com r e a l and you can watch the video there. It’ll be there shortly, so we’re adding this to our second day swag pile. All right, that’s. Where it goes, the science and art of decision making. Karen what? What are our challenges around decisionmaking? Well, i’ll tell you a little bit of the backstory of this session, okay? Came to the non-profit technology conference last year for the first time, and i am not a techie, but i want to learn more about trends and issues. And after it was over, i was very overwhelmed. And i thought it would be really need if there was a session on another life. Important topic to kind of give my brain a break. So weii well, had to choose this one, but i don’t know. You know what? It just came out of the universe. But i was here to make decisions about technology solutions, and i was having some trouble, and yeah, so i just thought, you know what? I need to learn more about this and so it’s been a good long years journey. And here we are spent a year curating content a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Jamie wanted to share. What did you what have you learned in this curation process? So karen invited me in after she’s done. Quite. A bit of the legwork, which was wonderful on dh, so for me, it was really trying to look at the three different kind of areas of decision making, so we talked about the science on dh. Then we talked about what it’s like to take in additional information, and then we kind of talked about some of the influences, and i think for me, one of the big things that i learned is is too to understand the systems that are happening every time that we face a decision. And that was really, really important because, like karen said, we’re here at the ntcdinosaur decisions a cz non-profits we’re faced with all kinds of, like, really important decisions on dh, so being able to kind of understand that process was really, really valuable as part of this whole building of the presentation, okay? So there’s, the science, the influences and the process all around our decision making. What did the count since you did most of the duration will give you the chance. What? What do you learn about the science of decision making? Well, it drew a lot from the work of dr daniel kahneman, who wrote the book thinking fast and slow and he’s very respected in his field. He’s, a psychologist. And he also won the nobel prize in economics for some of his work. So okay, smart guy. He basically proposed that our approaches to judgment and choice take their two mental systems or modes of thinking one of them is sort of fast and instinctual. Then the other is slower and deliberate. So that was sort of based on the different types of decisions we have to make, like whether whether it across the road now versus whether to buy a new home are hard wiring. You know, we come free built right way. Have different types of thes to these two methods of decision making. Break down into the types of decisions we have to make for sure, like one is mohr sort of natural? The fast thinking that we do is effortless is just something we do is we navigate our life. We drive the car down the road. Okay? Slow thinking is more deliberate. It’s more logical thinking through procedures. Little more algorithmic. So it takes more mental effort to do logical thinking decision making. It takes longer. Okay, more deliberative. Process? Yes, exactly. Um, is that all you learned on for you in the years that all the science you master and that’s it? No. I mean, we boy, you could go on forever. I mean, a decision making is such a huge topic. You can look at it from a leadership aspect. Marketing behavioral economics. It’s huge. We just sort of focused in this session on, you know, information overload in an increasingly digital world. And how that’s we process that kind of information differently. Then then what? What we’re hardwired to do? Just perfect. Because, that’s, what you suffered after an ice twenty fifteen mental fatigue you were you were distressed and overloaded. Exactly, there’s. Not that you suffer from ntcdinosaur. The after effect was it was so much value, so much value. You were you were you were shell shocked. All right, so how can we start to help people in their decision making? And, you know, let’s, take the the normal in our conversation. Let’s, take the normal day to day decisions. Not this. Something is simple minded is crossing the street. But you know some fair minded work decisions or personal decisions. But it’s not. His monumental is whether to buy a home, whether they have a child but, you know, you know what? Like, what am i gonna have for dinner tonight or ah, whether i should have my parents over or, you know, i mean, average sort of day to day decisions, sort of in the middle of the spectrum, very fair, fair enough, very good point because our brain doesn’t doesn’t prioritize all the decisions we have to make in a day so we could be spending a lot of mental energy on things that are a trivial nature. Andi and then we don’t have enough reserves for the important ones, you know, when when we’re expending mental effort in our slow thinking we are we’re the brain is using twenty percent of our body’s energy. Oh, gee, so we’re using up more of that energy in our in our logical processes. So if there’s a new way of losing weight, i just obsess about whether across the street now definitely can i can i lose twenty pounds? Not that i have a lot to lose, but but but, you know, yeah, i obsess about whether to put the stamp on the envelope right side up or upside down. Can i drop some pounds? You may drop some pounds. I know, i know. All kidding aside energy not calories, energy. Okay, assuming energy. Okay, but, i mean, you do. You are depleting some of your resources. If you spend too much time on thing on decisions that just ultimately don’t matter that much. Ah, so, you know, some really good advice is to look at how you are. You know, how? First of all your energy when you’re making these decisions, you don’t want to make them when you’re tired and hungry. I mean, this is just obvious when you’re feeling emotional things, you can monitor about yourself in a busy life. We just go, go, go, go, go. We don’t have this sort of transition zone to kind of recent reset our mental mode to the next transition zone. Right? We don’t. We don’t have. Okay. Okay, jamie, anything you want to add at this? Ah, scientific stage. Yeah, well, i think a lot of people can can relate to that. And that transferred really well from kind of talking about how, as an individual, we make decisions and what influences us whether it’s past memories, past experiences, you know, the time of the day, how much you’ve had to eat, i think it really translates well when you’re talking about the non-profit world is a cz well, so if you are thinking about some major decisions that you need to make, you want to make sure that you’re you’re planning your board meeting an appropriate time of the day, you know, like so people are feeling fed if you feel really happy if you’re in a really good mood than that can actually make you less thoughtful in your decision making. And so we’re not saying that, you know, everybody should be kind of new thriller on happy in a board meeting, but just keeping these kinds of influences in mind. So in your day to day life, if you’re if you’re making decisions on what project to work on or if you’re making some of those bigger organization all decisions just keeping these influences in mind, khun b can actually have quite an impact, and that was really surprising me to me to find out all of these external factors and how you know, just one of the stories. That, karen tell, told in the session today, was how if you’re holding a warm liquid like a cup of coffee, yeah, you actually feel warmer feelings towards the people person that you’re chatting with, which makes sense culturally, like we get together over coffee all the time. And so and usually when someone asks you to go for coffee, it’s not because they want to yell at you, it’s, because they want to have ah positive, you know, productive kind of conversation, so that was was really interesting to think about and and that’s, what i loved about this session is it helped us kind of connect with our our own processes, but at the same time, we can think about how it influences our day to day work. Excellent, i like toe like that exploration of holding a warm liquid, what other other influences are there that we haven’t talked about yet? Ah, well, we’re we’re influenced by almost everything in our environment, you know, our natural impulses when you know if i look at you and i see i might be able to detect that you’re angry, just buy one or two words that you say in the tone, you know, whether makes us happy if you ask someone if they’re happy and that’s a beautiful brightstep durney day, they’re more inclined to say that they’re happy than they are on a cloudy sort of moody day. You know, we are feeling beans before we are thinking beings and so, you know, this translates in our day to day life. All right? So how do we dahna control some of these things? The one that we can control? You can control the weather, but our feelings, our state? How do we how do we sort of harness that? So that we do make better decisions? Well, you know, a very simple thing you khun dio, is before you’re making a decision. Put yourself in a neutral state of mind, you know, you can. You can just say write down everything that you did yesterday, step by step in sequins i got up, i had breakfast, i drove to work, had my day of work, came home, walk the dogs you’re just sort of reset it’s like it’s like your computer, your rebooting your computer on. Then you’ve shifted your mental mode, you know you’re not bringing in. Maybe your emotion and your anxiety and whatever you’re kind of reset, and then take the appropriate approach for what type of decision that that it is, you’re making. You want to just take a step back, you need this transition zone, you know, it’s hard, all the switching we do all the time, you know, between with multi tasking, you know, they’re really saying, well, what you’re doing is, you’re you’re, you’re just doing attention switching, and that is very depleting in our mind, in our body. So, you know, having a little, like, if you go to a therapist and you have an appointment, your appointments probably going to be about forty five minutes, not an hour, because they use some time to prepare. Have your session sometime to externalize what just happened and and collect some notes and be ready for the next person, you know, that’s logical. I see my yeah, i see my therapist for three hours, three hours, three times a day for a week, so i don’t know how she’s managing externalization she’s got just needs she needs to download, just like on the only person we could see each of those three days or practices suffering. I’m humble, unpaid, well, externalizing information. I mean, it’s coming at us, and i mean, we we learn our brain like spatial, you know, and and the context of the environment that we learn in having all of this information coming at us. It’s. I mean, yes, lists are still important in this digital age. It’s still important to you, externalize some of what’s going on in your mind so that you can look at it as an observer in your environment, rather than you know, yeah, okay, little dispassionate, yes, once removed, but but clearheaded, i see your hand, all right. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation. Top trends. Sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio and i’m gale bauer from sponsorship strategist dot com dahna. Anything else about these influences? Because we’re going now, we’re going to move to the process. Okay, but anything more about the influences? Well, i mean, biologically speaking, good moods. I mean, meant to us and our ancestors that environment was safe. We could we could relax a little. We could let our guard down, but that makes us less vigilant. You know, a bad mood. Singles tow us. Something’s wrong. I might need to protect myself. There might be a threat. I need to pay more attention. So, yeah, emotions. Like i said, we’re we’re thinking or feeling beings before we’re thinking. Okay? We moved to the process of decision making. I mean, i feel like we’re sort of there, but it sounds like yes. Yeah, well, i want to go there next. Well, one thing about the process, there is a lot of choice in today’s world, you know. Example, in the session we gave was going to pick out aspirin. You know, when you look at the isle of there’s, a spare for migraines and for sore muscles. And for all the different reasons you might have an ailment. But ultimately, maybe it’s the same product on homes have thousands and thousands of our possessions um, there’s research that shows that actually having too much choice leads us to make poor decisions, and we’re also dissatisfied with them. So having in the process fewer, fewer good options, but just a few and fewer variables, okay, aaron is nodding a lot what you wantto into this? Well, i think that that ah, really translates well, when we’re thinking about that, the options that a lot of non-profits faces thinking, well, we can go in this direction, and we could do this kind of program are or use this kind of tactic, and what karen saying is is really like pairing that down and then making that decision and and the process of paring it down requires a decision as well. But i think a lot of us can agree that after a brainstorming session, it’s pretty obvious what some of the best options are, and then kind of taking a moment and taking a break, especially in, like, a working meeting where everyone has a chance to kind of reset and then that makes that actually makes the decision process easier on dh that is really profound that sometimes people just want to kind of powerthru and say, it’s, getting towards the end of the day like we just need to make a decision. And that’s exactly right. You just need to make a decision. So in order to do that, you have to kind of think about all of these, all of the influences that air that are wrapped up in that. Okay, okay. We still have some time together. You spent ninety minutes on this and in your session, so has it goes quick, here’s a lot more to say and have enough time that well, i mean, okay, the other the other part that we touched on in the session of the end was about creativity, because how can you choose the best option if you haven’t even imagined it? So part of it is developing some flexible thinking skills to, you know, be experimenting a little whimsical. And, um, you know, that requires sometime sometime in a calm mental state to do that kind of creative exploration. Eso we didn’t exercise in the session. We just ask everyone, what could you do with a marble? You know, similar to google? Asking what can you do with a pencil. Let’s. Try and see what we get. And some of the answers were like super unique jamie metoo, can you ask the audience? Okay, what can we do with the marbles? So, it’s kind of fun? Yeah. Some people went really practical right away. Like i could hold it. I could put it in my mouth. I could put it in my head. I could put it on the table on dh. Then other folks also kind of went more creative right away. So one of our participants said you could write a haiku about it which i she’s like it’s, not that left field, but but in the activity they had on an opportunity to work just by themselves, and then to share and build upon. And i think what was really apparent is that a lot of the folks who participated said that that once they connected and started to build upon existing structure, then it it was really additive and really complimentary. And they started to go in more creative places. Cam, you know, along this line we were talking about the complexity of problems today, and a lot of our problems are crossing borders and what is required? You know, i read something today about borderless leadership on dh you need a different skill set to address some of these problems. And so some of the things we talked about beyond creativity, where was critical thinking skills, you know, to look at all of the information coming at us and to be able to discern what is true and what is not true, what are some reliable sources, you know, and to be able to synthesise some of this information together with that, we talked about being able to ask good questions, because that helps you ultimately make a better decision if you can clarify things so it’s kind of a lost art, you know, we reward people at work for having the answer rather than having a really good question and children asked several hundred questions a day on. Well, you probably ask a lot as an interviewer, but i do know i’m also child, i’m asking a thousand questions today in our day today, life like way asked everyone in the room, like, see if you can keep track of how many questions you ask today is probably going to be very few. Ah, very good skill to develop question answering how does that help us make better decisions? Jamie well, for me, i mean, in our work with the inside education, we we ask a lot of questions, so we do environmental programs with our students on we talked about natural resources in the environment and in that is this critical thinking piece. And so i found that if a student asked me a question and i turn it back to the rest of the classroom or or answered them with another question that it helps start to kind of peel back the layers and let’s folks realize they start to consider the question from a different perspective. So i used the example in the session, you know, the first time a student asked me, well, what’s the difference between coal and charcoal. First of all, i couldn’t believe that i didn’t know the answer and it’s not a life changing thing, you know, like, i’ve gone so far without knowing that, and that was fine, but once i realised that it made me think to myself like, what else don’t i know about the world? Like, why don’t i know the difference between those two things and that’s the power of questions is that i know, like karen said in a professional life, sometimes if you’re if you’re in a meeting and and there’s questions about the reasoning behind the project that you’re working on, folks, khun bristle they can feel really defensive, but the power of asking a really good question is that it expands that horizon, and it helps you start to think about the bigger picture on dh then in that you’re able to think creatively and shift the paradigm and that that can only be helpful, you know? Okay, okay, we still have a couple minutes left. Let’s tease out. Come on. Ninety minutes in a session. Zoho back on non-profit radio listeners. Yeah, number. I’ll never have you back, bill it all related to the related to good questions. And critical thinking is really about how we learn on dh and, you know, if you notice someone’s thinking process, if if if there’s a bias or they they they have a distorted reasoning, you know, we get defensive when people point out our errors. So the best way to help people see that. They have maybe a flaw in their thinking is too created a learning experience for them to see the insight for themselves. Tohave a lightbulb moment an ah ha moment your mental mode shifts more easily when you discover it for yourself. How do you create this kind of moment? Teachers are good at creating this moment. What teachers are good you turned away from the mic, she said teachers were go to creating this moment on, i guess one of the ways that that i do that in a classroom with students is i you know, if we if we ask in opening question like what’s, a type of natural resource that we used to create energy, you know, some kids might have the answer right away and then others will be like lightning and it’s like, okay, so why did you say lightning? We don’t get electricity from from lightning, but why that? And then it helps them instead of saying no, you’re wrong because they’re they’re right. Lightning is electricity, but instead then we can kind of have a conversation about it, and then the student can come to the conclusion themselves organ can work through the process themselves and say, okay, wait a second that doesn’t make sense, there’s nobody running around trying to capture lightning so that we can have power in our homes, but in that it doesn’t it’s that experience, and i think it resonates more with a student. I mean, this is such a trivial example, but like karen said, if if there’s this this bias that occurs or this kind of error in thinking, i think everyone can relate to have someone if you have ah colleagues saying you’re wrong, the rest of the conversation doesn’t always go really well. So instead, you know yeah, you came you can and it’s not avoiding the conversation, it’s just helping them kind of see, because that’s, the only way that that folks can kind of overcome is that if they experience that process themselves, it can be really hard to try to convince someone that they’re wrong and you’re right. But by building that experienced by kind of understanding how our mind works and how thoughts are created, you can you can help increase that knowledge and expand the conversation instead of shutting it down and making it kind of antagonistic. Okay, okay. That sounds like a pretty good place to wrap up. Yeah, i think bernie’s copulation like you. All right. See, the closest to me is karen headed niimi, director of business and human resource is at the inside education society of alberta. And if the same society is jamie nelson who’s, an educator at inside education ladies, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. Thank you. And this is that i thank you for being with us. Twenty martignetti non-profit radio coverage of sixteen ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference. Thank you. Next week. I just don’t know you’ll have to trust me. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com responsive by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled pursuant dot com creative producer was claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is a line producer. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez on our music is by scott stein thank you for that scottie with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great kayman what’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dno. Two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio At #16NTC

Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio will be at the 2016 Nonprofit Technology Conference in San Jose, CA next week. I’ll capture lots of interviews for the show and NTC Conversations.

Interviews scheduled for the 2016 Nonprofit Technology Conference

  • Wednesday, March 23
    • 10:00 | Using Digital Disruption to Elevate Your Cause
    • 10:30 | What? You Mean There’s More To It Than Just Writing Copy for a Fundraising Email?
    • 11:00 | The Future of Money: What Digital Payments Mean for Your Organization
    • 11:30 | Content Creation and Curation in the Real World: Where Do Those Tweets, GIFs & Blog Posts Come From?
    • 12:00 | Virtual Organizations: Managing Remote Employees
    • 1:00 | The Little Brand That Could: A Multichannel Approach for the Small Nonprofit
    • 1:30 | Here, There, and Everywhere: Distance Volunteer Training
    • 2:30 | It Takes More than a Hashtag to Build a Movement: Network Building for Change
    • 3:15 | 7 Habits of Highly Risky Small/Medium Nonprofits: IT Security Pitfalls
    • 3:45 | Digital Inclusion to Further Your Impact
    • 4:15 | The Modern Digital Team: How to Build a Digital Program That Works
    • 4:45 | Sustainers: So Hot Right Now
    • 5:15 | How to Boost Revenue With Donor Surveys
  • Thursday, March 24
    • 10:00 | Super-Boring, Crazy-Important: PCI and Protecting Your Donors’ Data
    • 10:30 | Happy Healthy Nonprofit: Strategies for Impact without Burnout
    • 11:00 | Change Workshop: Managing Change to Ensure a Technology Project’s Success
    • 11:30 | Forget Big, It’s All About Small Data
    • 12:00 | The Future of Email: From 2015 to 2025
    • 1:00 | Fantastic Volunteers and Where to Find Them
    • 1:30 | Come Back and See Us: Increasing Your Donor Retention
    • 2:00 | Communications MythBusters: Best Practices vs. Bad Advice
    • 2:30 | Leveraging Expert or Technical Volunteers
    • 3:15 | Content Calendars and YOU! Creating Communications Harmony
    • 3:45 | Moving Social Media into the Nonprofit Boardroom
    • 4:15 | The Science and Art of Decision Making
    • 4:45 | Design on a Budget
  • Friday, March 25
    • 9:30 | Donor Onboarding and Stewardship: Using Personalized Video to Create Stronger Constituent Ties and Raise More Money
    • 10:00 | How to be a Google AdWords Superhero
    • 11:00 | The Future of Capacity-Building is Collaborative: Learning Communities, Collaboratives, and Cohorts
    • 1:00 | Hidden Secrets of Google Analytics
    • 1:30 | Digital Metrics: What to Measure, How, and Why