Tag Archives: social advertising

Nonprofit Radio for November 29, 2021: How Much To Spend On Ads In 2022

My Guest:

George Weiner: How Much To Spend On Ads In 2022

“The Nonprofit Advertising Benchmark Study” will help you decide what’s the right amount for you to spend on advertising if you want to be comparable to your peers. At the very least, it’s a place to start your research on ad spending. George Weiner explains the study. He’s chief whaler at Whole Whale. Does that make him the Captain Ahab of nonprofit tech? Listen to find out.


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[00:02:18.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with odo toxicity if I heard that you missed this week’s show How much to spend on ads. In 2022, the nonprofit advertising benchmark study, we’ll help you decide what’s the right amount for you to spend on advertising if you want to be comparable to your peers at the very least, it’s a place to start your research on ad spending George winner explains the study. He’s chief whaler at whole whale. Does that make him the captain ahab of nonprofit tech. Let’s find out on tony state too. It’s the holidays and fourth quarter sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome George winner to nonprofit radio He is the chief whaler of whole whale, a digital agency that leverages data and tech to increase the impact of nonprofits and for benefit companies. He’s also a co founder of power poetry, the largest teen poetry platform in the US A safe creative free home to over 500,000 poets. George was chief technology officer of do something dot org. He managed the site overhaul twice. Winning a webby award and helped build a community of over a million and a half young people taking action. He’s an evangelist for democratized data and measuring success. The company is at whole whale dot com and at whole whale. Welcome chief whaler. How are you George

[00:02:21.24] spk_0:
wow, incredible intro. Thank you so much. tony Thanks for having having me on

[00:02:26.63] spk_1:
my pleasure, my pleasure. What’s what’s behind the company name? Whole whale which which leads you to be whole whaler. What’s that about?

[00:03:23.44] spk_0:
Yeah, we found it a decade ago and at the time the thought that struck me was ultimately the way that the nan, you know the Nantucket whalers in the massachusetts whalers in the 18 fifties would look at a whale and they would basically bring back lamp oil and throw the rest away in times of abundance. We tend to be a touch wasteful instead of using everything from the bluebird of the bone. And I took that lens and said, I felt like many social impact organizations weren’t looking at the opportunity to leverage data and technology and the rising web in that way. And they simply said, hey, hey, here’s the internet and the most powerful tool we’ve ever been given. Let’s put a donate button on it and call it a day. And so I kind of gave rise to how we view this time of abundance with an eye toward the best ways of leveraging data intact to increase the impact.

[00:03:57.64] spk_1:
Very interesting, very interesting. Uh you uh you drew that analogy between the two interesting. All right. Um, so are you the captain? Ahab, do you have a deep revenge? I’m trusting you know the story of Moby dick. Do you have anything deeply uh hurting you that you need revenge for? That’s going to drive the the ship of what was it the uh um The pick, watch the pick what it’s going to drive your whole whale peak watt into the ground.

[00:04:11.14] spk_0:
I’ve got a few white whales. Maybe I chase, you know, I got a few white whales maybe that I chase. Yeah. The other reason I found it all whales. Because of the nautical puns. I mean, you’re virtually swimming in them anywhere you turn and with regard to the things that chase, you know, the nonprofit ad study is one, but we like we go after interesting projects along the way. In addition to our our day to day work as consultants. We also develop products and try to put things out there in the ecosystem that help others do their jobs better. Or learn more about whatever field they’re wandering and so I can get distracted by a white whale or two.

[00:04:48.64] spk_1:
Okay, I see the navigate your helping folks navigate. Yes. The of course, the nautical you’re right. The uh nautical puns are are abundant.

[00:04:52.84] spk_0:
Yeah, they have to be they have to be

[00:05:05.44] spk_1:
navigate navigate the waters. All right. All right. So, we’ll see if your captain Ahab flush that out. See if you’ve hopefully you’re not going to do to uh to hold whale. What what the captain did too

[00:05:07.82] spk_0:
Made it 10 years so far. But I think that’s mainly because of an amazing team that basically just puts me in the right direction. Okay. It’s

[00:05:18.64] spk_1:
very gracious of you. All right. What is this this uh, nonprofit advertising benchmark study? What’s this thing all about?

[00:06:18.54] spk_0:
We wanted to answer a simple question and you know, never underestimate the power of a simple question because it can lead to, you know, a lot of, you know, threads essentially how much should a nonprofit spend on ads? This idea of advertising and promotion, it’s available technically informed nine nineties and with the help of cause I. Q. Which is a, you know, been a great partner in this. We analyzed seven over 7000 organizations to get that answer. And we chose organizations with a number of filters because clearly, you know, there’s 1.8 million nonprofits out there depending on how you’re sort of measuring the five oh one C threes and they’re like, oh that’s too many. And also, uh, you know, a third of them are not necessarily even over the threshold for reporting to the I. R. S. So we wanted to find 1 to 10 million in revenue organizations between one Million and 10 million and also met other certain criteria. And then we just sort of just, we dove in headfirst to to answer that question, how much should non profit spend on paid ads.

[00:06:36.34] spk_1:
Okay, so among your sample size of 7100 or so you you were you looked to see there’s I guess there’s a, there’s a line on the 9 90 that where folks where organizations report advertising expenses and that’s what, that’s what you were looking for,

[00:07:08.64] spk_0:
correct. It’s, you know, publicly disclosed because that’s, you know, the game and we look at that. So, you know, there are certain assumptions there that, you know, we note in the study of what that line is and what it isn’t. So it isn’t necessarily saying All right, this is the amount that people spent just on facebook ads or google ads. It’s advertising and promotion of the organization. So, you know, that could extend to people Paying for print ads. It could even in some cases, but we filtered it out for the most part include the cost paid to advertising firms to run ads. Uh, though many according to, I think the analysis, we didn’t hear only about like five or 10% in that range actually incorporated in there. And those are the outliers.

[00:07:43.14] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. And this specifically, thank you. Cause I was going to ask you about, you know, how, how we define advertising or how you define advertising this study and it specifically doesn’t include google ad grant money. Right? That’s, that’s different.

[00:07:58.84] spk_0:
Super important. Thanks for bringing that up. And it’s one of those sort of, you know, expert pieces there that it’s an in kind amount that doesn’t get reported on that line. Right? The google ad grants and you 10-K per month in money spent is something that would show up on your in kind value, not actual dollars out the door.

[00:09:03.04] spk_1:
Okay. Right. So it’s captured elsewhere. So it’s not part of the study here. Okay. Um, and so I was struck, you know, I’ve I’ve known that these that the vast majority of nonprofits are are smaller, you know, smaller revenue amounts. But I guess just reading it again, reminding me refreshing my recollection that uh, 93 a half percent of nonprofits are under $1 million dollars in revenue and and only 1.5% are over $10 million dollars in revenue. So that this this, you know, our universe of nonprofits, that this is not related to advertising, although, I mean, it is in terms of big words spend more on advertising, but that’s not my point. My point is just it just drives home that so many of our of our colleagues in nonprofits are organizations that are under $1 million dollars in revenue, 93 93 a half percent are under a million dollars, vast majority. Again.

[00:10:11.74] spk_0:
Yeah. And it’s important to note that, you know, because I think maybe in our minds or because of the narratives, we see large organizations and assume that they’re all like multimillion dollar, but like, this is the truth of it and that’s Yeah, that 1.44, exact five oh one c three nonprofit organizations and, you know, there’s a very, very small fraction of them that kind of live above that line, You know, like roughly speaking the same is kind of true in business ecosystems as well. You know, it’s hard to get to a million dollars. You realize that. But also when you look at the market how, how much of a long tail there really is. And we wanted to sort of remove that and say like once an organization has kind of, I mean not saying you’ve made it, but you were in rarer air, certainly after crossing $1 million you were running something that certainly has enough residents to to reach that level. And then we also filtered by age to be like, well, wait a minute. Maybe they’re like one night, you know, overnight successes or pieces like that. So we looked at organizations over under this century funded founded in uh, and and took a look at that as well. But it is, it is a curious point. We wanted to start with that context because I don’t think it’s given enough in the sense of nonprofit industry and you like immediately sort of have this availability heuristic meaning like I remember the last thing I saw and either it’s the red cross or you know, you know, pets down the corner saving one pet at a time.

[00:10:41.44] spk_1:
The availability heuristic. Thank you dropping that tech guy. You know, you have to, uh, well you, I’ll keep you out of jargon jail because you you explained it immediately

[00:10:47.03] spk_0:
go to

[00:10:51.64] spk_1:
The availability heuristic now it’s a good one. I love it. Uh huh. And you uh you flushed it out so folks understand what you’re talking about.

[00:10:56.23] spk_0:
I still will probably end up in jail though, won’t you

[00:11:10.64] spk_1:
didn’t do it? Well that could be we’ll see how we’ll see how the conversation goes. But you didn’t do it pretentious li like you know the all you would have available, all you, all you would have within your within your thinking at that point would be subject to the availability heuristic.

[00:11:13.34] spk_0:
Yeah. And then just leave it. Didn’t just leave it

[00:11:47.74] spk_1:
there and then make me ask and then make you flush it out. Which would have put you in jargon jail. So all right now because your availability heuristic. Thank you. This is a technology guy. Data data data guy, expect those things. I have a book like that. What’s that way out of this cool book from college. Alternative interpretations of data based conclusions. I think availability is in there. You know, uh confusing correlation and cause and effect. That’s a very common one. This is cool book. Can you show it to you

[00:11:50.24] spk_0:
what’s strong? I like that

[00:12:07.34] spk_1:
rival hypotheses. That’s what it is, rival hypothesis. Alternative interpretations of data basically. Okay, so enough pretense for now let’s talk about the study a little more. Yes. What stood out for you uh findings. What what what was most informative to you that and you think our listeners need to know?

[00:13:12.84] spk_0:
Yeah. The top line, I feel like we have that that cliffhanger is like how much should number I would spend. It’s like how much should we spend already? What’s the number? So I felt like we owed it to the audience to give them a number with a lot of asterisks and the number which is the median spend for our sample was basically $12,070. Which roughly equated to 5% of the median revenue as a as a ratio. So you know, knowing nothing else turning off the podcast right now you’re like, all right, we should be like at least considering that. and 60% of This sample, 60% were actually spending on ads or spending on advertising and promotion. I’m going to use that interchange of advertising and promotion and add but advertising activities 60% did and 40% did. Not. That actually surprised me. I actually really believe that there would be a lot more organizations spending. So you know that that was a bit of a surprise to me.

[00:13:16.87] spk_1:
Okay. Right. Not even not even 2/3

[00:13:20.04] spk_0:
are spot on your Yeah, exactly. Exactly on

[00:13:22.59] spk_1:
Advertising. Okay. And the median spend is 12,000 between friends. We can around the 70 away.

[00:13:29.35] spk_0:
So 12 spot me 70 12,000

[00:13:31.94] spk_1:
dollars. There you go. That’s that’s your

[00:13:34.30] spk_0:
feet for being option.

[00:13:48.14] spk_1:
Um uh And the average was, you know, it was interesting. The average was quite the average of like 4.2 million wasn’t the average was very highly skewed. Do you remember that? Right? It was it was something very huge.

[00:14:37.04] spk_0:
Oh yeah. I mean you had to throw out the average because of these outliers. There’s like these massive positive outliers and there’s some nonprofits out there that are spending quite significantly. And you know, you sort of begin to touch on lobbying. There’s like um, you know, there was a pro life America group up there and the millions of dollars and you know, that’s that’s not data that necessarily is going to help you, right. If Bill Gates suddenly walked into your boardroom, you’d all be average billionaires. Not helpful. Right. That that kind of insight is not helpful. So that’s why we chose the median. I’m sure it’s in your book of trying to avoid those mistakes. And you know, we we went through and tried to explain why we chose the numbers we did and also give access to the full data dashboard if people are interested in it.

[00:14:51.34] spk_1:
Alright, so, well, since you mentioned access to this, how do how do folks get the summary and I’ll be sure to say at the end, you can remind me if I don’t, how do you get the, get the, get the summary of the study.

[00:14:55.14] spk_0:
So it’s at a whole whale dot com slash advertising tried to make it pretty simple. We have a nice infographic there and the ability to download the entire report.

[00:15:05.74] spk_1:
Okay. And there’s a little fee there’s a $5 fee if you want if you want

[00:15:08.89] spk_0:
All this. So yeah the full data and dashboard if you want to go digging into it. Um and getting access to that. Yeah that’s the $5 fee. But you get the whole study which is you know 21, pages of awesome. That’s you know that’s available

[00:17:05.14] spk_1:
right? That’s free. That’s absolutely free. Okay. Hold well dot com slash advertising it’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Are you making your plans for 2022 for fundraising? Marketing communications. Do you need help Look at turn two? If you’re like if you’re thinking about fundraising you need to raise more money in 2022 marketing and communications. Your content, the stuff that goes out all that that you’re creating for your donors for general awareness. If you need help with it, think about turn to because that’s what they do. They have a background in non profits. They understand the nonprofit community so you’re not you’re not hiring an agency that only works with you know cos they understand the nonprofit space. They can help you develop your content, help you hone those messages, Get those messages out like you’ve been hearing me talk about, right? So if you need to raise more money or if you need to go to the next level in marketing communications In 2022, think about turn to because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o Now back to how much to spend on ads in 2022. uh, the, the 80 20 rule applies here is one of your, One of your takeaways that uh, the top 20% spend about 80% of the ad revenue. Yeah.

[00:17:06.54] spk_0:
It always seems to happen and I always seem surprised when I find that power law, right? The 80 20 shows up on like

[00:17:21.64] spk_1:
how again does it keep happening time after time after time for in a wide variety of applications, 80 20 applies. How is our world,

[00:17:57.74] spk_0:
especially in actually, especially in financial distribution. But I was actually, I did the analysis. I was like, it probably won’t in this case show and I was like, you gotta be kidding me. So it wasn’t exactly 80 20 it was 24 76. So that’s about 24% spent 80% of that ad spend coming back to your point on average is being like much higher than in a potential bit misleading. So you do have that handful of organization spending quite a bit and the top 13 organizations in our study spent over a million dollars. So you kind of see that heavy, heavy waiting. And if it’s like, all right, you know, the purpose of our organization is the public awareness of this particular issue. And the way we do it is just turned donations into advertising and they’re nonprofits that just do that And they skirt the line awful close to lobbying, but they stay this side of fair.

[00:19:23.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. Um, and you know, it occurs to me to this is, um, you know, you’re stuck with a lackluster host who is, whose thinking is not, uh, completely linear at all times, uh, if ever on that. But, uh, this is not, this is not a survey. So we’re not, we don’t have biases across people giving what they think is a good answer. You know, we don’t have those. So that just goes back to my book, the rival hypotheses, you know, self reports, not self reported data. Um, you do have the problem, like you said, you had to correct for whether people use agencies to produce their ads, but you were able to sort that out. So there’s, there’s some potential differentiation in, in the way people report organizations report advertising on their 9 90. But overall this is more reliable than survey data.

[00:20:13.84] spk_0:
Yeah. And I’m glad you brought that up. This is, you know, reported. So, I mean if you get back down to it, Yes, there is a human somewhere in the financial department of this non profit making that decision, but they’re doing that at a very macro stage and we’re pulling raw data were not wandering in and saying, Hey, how much do you spend on ads and you know, looking at, You know, 250 random nonprofits that decided to randomly fill out a survey with limiting information or you know, not being wanted to be fully transparent for whatever reasons. This is you know, this is source data from the organization according to the I. R. S aggregated by cause I. Q. And then we analyzed it to really find those answers and it’s something that we just felt was lacking. We felt like there was a lot of uh, we’ll call it a qualitative As opposed to quantitative type of research out there being like, Oh, here’s the official number. And then you look at the fine print and realize it was the opinion of 60 people not problems. And I’m like, I don’t know

[00:20:33.14] spk_1:
a lot of the answer. A lot of times people say, well it depends, it depends. So you’ve drilled down more than it depends.

[00:20:58.94] spk_0:
We’ve drilled down more and also been able to look at individual cause areas. So not just lumping one of my, one of my watchwords is being careful of lumping together the entire industry into one tidy bucket and assuming they all behave the same way. And if you know one nonprofit, you know one non profit and so we actually have, you know, in one of our findings divided up The type and cause focus of the organization to kind of get a better idea in that distribution, which tells, you know, another different story, which is all the more to say. I, I hesitated but knew we dessert we we owed the audience an answer of $12,000. But even that can be misleading depending on the industry and sub industry weren’t

[00:21:34.94] spk_1:
well, like arts organizations for instance, spend the most right. That’s what you’re, you’re, you’re teasing us a little bit. But I don’t do that to nonprofit radio listeners. You can, you can attempt it, but I won’t allow it. So, uh, let’s, uh, so arts organizations spend the most on advertising, right?

[00:22:15.54] spk_0:
Organizations were the highest spender. Again, surprising to me because I actually thought it would be health, I thought would be the health industry spending, you know, more to research awareness and pieces like that. But you know, frankly at the end of the day, you need to get people to attend to show up to, you know, go to these, you know, one time events to museums on location and so these, these were the highest highest spenders for sure. And promoters of performing arts sports and similar events were at the top and then the lowest, you know, because you look at the high and low, we’re less surprisingly the grantmakers and giving services like if you’re giving grants, guess what people find Jack, If you’re writing checks, people, people

[00:22:42.04] spk_1:
find you events, you, you you, you teased out what ad spending does too event income and I’ll let you, I’ll let you reveal what was found.

[00:22:46.44] spk_0:
Yeah, this is a bit of a nothing burger on the face of it because I had, here’s a case where I went in with maybe a touch of an agenda. I had an agenda. I’m going to admit it that I thought if a nonprofit was spending research, going

[00:23:03.00] spk_1:
back to my book, researcher bias.

[00:23:38.74] spk_0:
Yeah, this was researcher bias. But I left it in because I was so surprised that the ad spend of a nonprofit did not correlate. Uh, mind you even causation that didn’t even correlate in any meaningful way to hire event income. So event income is another thing technically reported by non profits in the 990 that you can pull aggregate and analyze. I’ll put an asterisk there, there are problems with that reporting which may be impacted this. But ultimately there was no correlation at all with this idea that or eggs without ads and with ads had any meaningful difference in the amount raised with event fundraising.

[00:23:56.54] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. Clearly you had, you had a hypothesis because that’s why you pulled the event income Data off the 1990s.

[00:25:03.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, my hope was to show like I had, I had to hope that we would show that guess what if you’re spending to promote your event, your event does better And therefore an aggregate. They should be the folks that are making more money, you know, when in fact, you know, the of our, I can give some context with the data size. Uh, about 68% of our group had listed event fundraising expenses and 58% of that group reporting event fundraising revenue from their form nine nineties. So right in there, you’re like, wait a minute. They didn’t all make money, nope, just events that happened. Right? So I think it’s important. Not all events have maybe the purpose of fundraising, but that’s where they get listed. There’s also the question of in the accounting department, did that gift of $100,000 that came in five days after the event? Did that go to the capital campaign or did that go to the fundraising event? There’s a lot of mushiness there. So, you know, I’ll blame it on the data, but I wanted to report it because it was something that sort of keep us honest moment.

[00:25:09.32] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. But it’s valid. You reported as a finding. So

[00:25:13.12] spk_0:
like we. Did you believe it? Believe it. Ok.

[00:27:30.84] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. It’s the holidays and it’s the fourth quarter. The holidays. I hope you enjoyed your thanksgiving time with family, friends. Time for yourself. These things are important. You’ve got to take time to rejuvenate yourself to relax however you you know what’s best for you, however you do that for yourself. However you relax. It might be some people, some people relax by, you know, adrenaline rushes and uh, you know, zip cordon however you relax. I hope you did it over thanksgiving and I hope you will continue it throughout the holiday season. We’re in the midst of Hanukkah right now christmas coming up whatever your holiday is. I hope that you will be good to yourself as well as of course your family, loved ones and friends that you’re getting together with and it is the fourth quarter. So there’s a lot of pressure. I know vast amounts of, of fundraising revenue come in, not only the fourth quarter, but even in just in december. I know. So I know you’ve got those pressures. What am I talking about? Balance, balance, take care of yourself so you can take care of your non profit Please do both please for the holiday season this year. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for How much to spend on ads in 2022, the older organizations, older organizations spend more then then I’m sorry older organizations spend, uh, less likely to spend. I was thinking of larger. I was thinking of size, not age, older organizations spend less. That that seems to make sense. There are, when we presume that older organizations have have greater, uh market awareness because they’ve been around longer.

[00:27:59.74] spk_0:
I guess the, I love this take away, this was actually, I have to give credit to Kobe on our team who ran the ranch and manage this analysis. He just, he was like, I would love to look at the date funded because the underlying hypothesis here is that older organizations that were incubated and created in a time frankly pre web 12. Oh, would see less value in their operating less value in paying to play in creating ads and creating advertising. Oh, that’s

[00:28:14.34] spk_1:
the hypo that you think that’s the car. They haven’t adapted to our digital ad environment.

[00:28:15.80] spk_0:
I mean it’s, we call the rising generation digital natives. Right? How much time do you spend on Tiktok? Like there’s, I think there’s a fundamental reality.

[00:28:24.88] spk_1:
I’ve never, I’ve never been there. But they can hire people, I don’t need, I can hire somebody to do Tiktok for me to watch you George. That’s so cynical about older organizations. But let’s all right.

[00:28:40.44] spk_0:
You’re right. Let’s, can we, we can tell them the numbers though. It wasn’t that massively off. I will always say that. Um, the,

[00:28:41.84] spk_1:
alright, let’s start with, what’s an older organization. How did you, how did you group or cluster or how did you define age?

[00:28:48.66] spk_0:
How did I unfairly categorize this poor lined group of nickel. They

[00:29:03.74] spk_1:
Are capable of even hiring people to do something post 1950. I mean these these folks are still watching black and white television and some of them are still listening to silent movies in your mind.

[00:29:07.04] spk_0:
Uh, that side, the set with this century. So it’s over under year 2000, which I thought was an interesting inflection point and also it’s nice and round. So

[00:29:17.86] spk_1:
There’s a whole bunch of before 2000. Okay.

[00:30:20.54] spk_0:
Oh yeah, no, no, I think That, I mean it’s a long swath of time to look at and you know, the difference is really that this uh in last century 41% had no ads versus in this century 37%. So you know, 4% points total difference in just the binary decision. Should we have that ads, advertising and promotion? Um and then the median spend of this century was not that much higher, but it’s about 400 ISH, $400 higher uh simply by nothing else controlling for everything else, right? Like nothing else. You just, you’re just going to spend a little bit more if you are going to spend and you’re more likely to be spending on that. So it wasn’t mine, I kind of wish there was a bigger differential. So it’s actually much tighter than, and I have to, I have to say the counter narrative here is that do something dot org, one of my alma mater’s uh what Founded in 1993 and still had a well well above average as fund. So they are like the outlier that I didn’t even have to take that long to find.

[00:30:38.34] spk_1:
It’s impressive that you were the chief technology officer and do something that’s uh that’s a, that’s quite a renowned organization for What, what’s their sweet spot, 14-17 or 14-18 or 14-20 year olds taking, taking action and all the data that you gathered from them. That’s uh that’s quite a, that’s quite a job to have had. It’s impressive.

[00:31:17.44] spk_0:
It was an interesting time to have that role. I’ll say that for sure because there was a lot of, you know, a lot of tech being just sort of introduced web to, oh, just becoming of age, you know, you look at facebook pages and that existing for the first time in that period of time being like, what do we do with this now? I don’t know, what do we do? Like there was a lot of like, have you used this thing, you’re like, oh God, what is this thing now that I have to go figure out and then building our own platform as well and then sort of, you know, data privacy and protection and jumping in? I’d say the biggest piece we figured out was SMS in that period of time, the power of text messaging, which is still, you know, widely under appreciated, I’d say in the social impact sector. I do take, you know, huge nod of the hat to twilio dot org and what they’re doing out there, but it’s a, you know, it was an interesting time to be the cto

[00:31:49.34] spk_1:
and what was the the prime age group for? Do something? I was trying to guess, I was like 14 to 18 or something. Yeah, it’s

[00:32:15.14] spk_0:
extended, you know, I think they would extend it to through college age, but there’s like different sort of calls to action along the way. While I was there, we were predominantly focused on teens and tweens and that sort of intro level to volunteerism and engagement to foster a lifetime of social engagement. And and since then they’ve really evolved because guess what? You know, if you know, if you have half a million people that are of this age, it’s silly to say like, all right, goodbye, Good luck. I’m like, yeah, we can still provide services. We can still provide ways for them to engage. So it’s kind of an interesting quandary. I think for a lot of youth focused organizations to be like, where do you draw that line?

[00:32:53.54] spk_1:
Well, and because eventually those folks are gonna turn over 45 and then they’re just gonna be dinosaurs. Like like you hypothesized about the older organizations so you better get all the data you can now or you know, do something better because once, they once they turned 45, I mean they’re practically dead and they can’t adapt. Their their minds

[00:32:55.86] spk_0:
are impossible.

[00:32:57.15] spk_1:
Yeah. Their brains are neck roast it.

[00:32:59.63] spk_0:
Well actually, no, not completely, but maybe 4% more of them. Like 4% points. four

[00:33:04.59] spk_1:
percent. Alright. Yeah. Good. Thank you for bringing us back to the survey study. So we’re not a servant to the study, definitely

[00:33:11.63] spk_0:
stepped in it. I’m sorry.

[00:33:22.84] spk_1:
So uh let’s talk about what I what I had confused with that larger larger organizations. What did you find out about that? That’s that’s it.

[00:34:56.04] spk_0:
Well, I think the interesting thing is not that hey, surprise larger people with more money, spend more money. This just in from things you probably already knew uh is that it’s the same ratio. So that sort of golden ratio of 5% of revenue just paired out for small and large organizations. My assumption there that I went in there with a sort of hypothesis was that The smaller organizations would probably disproportionately spend at a higher ratio, but it didn’t turn out to be true. So in fact, that sort of 5% of revenue held across large and small organizations, albeit yeah, large organizations spent more. So if you do like if you just take away a quick thing, you could accidentally assume that oh, large organizations got big by spending more. You’re like, well no, they’re larger and they still spend at that ratio, which is in and of itself interesting because it is a much bigger number. And between those two groups where we divided it between large and small, which was over under I should note small organizations being 125 million. So small and 5 to 10 million. So we just basically through the line down the middle and it just equated to the large organizations had a median those three X. In terms of revenue three X. The amount that the 1 to 5 did and that was the same ratio three X more in ad spend. So you know, if you were doing lazy reporting, you say like large organizations spend three times the amount you’re like, Yeah, but that’s just a symptom of numbers. Okay, okay.

[00:35:04.24] spk_1:
And employees, you also, you also tracked the number of full time employees at, at organizations.

[00:35:06.54] spk_0:
Yeah, this was a bear. Would

[00:35:08.42] spk_1:
you find related to? Why is it a bear?

[00:35:17.44] spk_0:
It was a bear. It was just really difficult to do to like segment based on, you know how many employees and they’re simple.

[00:35:18.71] spk_1:
Isn’t there a simple question on the 9 90 I’m not an accountant. So I don’t

[00:36:07.13] spk_0:
know the total number of employees is technically available. So we were able to grab that number and then parse it out. It’s just parsing it between under 55 to 9, 10 to 14 employees, 15 to 19 employees. Uh and sort of scaling that up. The biggest jump happens really from, you know, organizations with less than five employees just aren’t really spending on ads. And the hot take there is that, you know, surprise, it takes people to run the ads running ads and promotions takes dedicated, you know, person or part of a person to truly run. And then as you sort of scale up, you have like random ebbs and flows, but the biggest jump really is that like if you have an organization with under five people, um, they’re really, they’re nowhere near that median ad spend because they come in at like uh 500 bucks versus immediately get to $2000. Um, once you get 5 to 9 and then the next biggest jump, you know, happens once you’re over 24 people, just larger organizations

[00:36:42.33] spk_1:
acquaintance with what goes into this, what why it takes you just said it takes a person or at least a part of a person for organizations that aren’t doing this for the, for the, Well for the 60% that that aren’t spending, what what did they have to devote time to?

[00:36:47.93] spk_0:
It is the most valuable asset of nonprofit has its not the revenue, it’s the time of the people working and to run an ad on facebook to place an ad in the paper. Let’s say if you’re running to place an ad on this very podcast, it takes time for someone to email setup, established the price, manage and test the R. O. I.

[00:37:34.53] spk_1:
It’s not create uh an obstacle where it doesn’t exist. All you have to do is email tony at tony-martignetti dot com. If you want to be a sponsor of nonprofit radio it’s quite a fluid process. George’s referring to George is referring to a university is not that well acquainted with right. This study is not on podcasting advertising When, when he does that one. I hope I will be a part of it. But uh, the, the, I don’t know about the podcasting universe, but if you want to be a sponsor of nonprofit radio it’s a very fluid, easy process. You’re talking directly to the host of the ceo. Just

[00:37:44.47] spk_0:
email you, do it right now. We can do it right now.

[00:38:00.62] spk_1:
Yes, you can do it right now. Whole whale. If whole whale was a sponsor, you would know how fluid and simple it is. But you haven’t taken, you haven’t taken that leap. So all right, let’s not go outside the bounds of the study as we’re, as we’re trying to draw conclusions. So

[00:38:16.22] spk_0:
We take, you know, we sort of take it as sort of maybe a core number that, Oh, you know, we can spend $12,000. A median number, but it doesn’t happen by itself. I mean, nothing simply does. So that that type of ad management was in the back of our mind saying like, you know, you have to track the R. O. Y. You have to create the report for the boss. You have to set up the landing page or whatever it may be that you’re running ads for. It’s not just as simple as saying like, oh cool, no problem. You know, through your credit card over there and you know, let it run. So that’s the thought that it takes labor to implement ads

[00:38:39.72] spk_1:
and your study makes the point that even if you’re hiring someone to do the ads for you. You need someone to oversee the work of the consultant or the firm.

[00:39:07.32] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean the numbers bear out that, you know, it definitely tracks as you go up in a number of employees, um that you’re, you’re able to see a higher spend. Now. That’s also corollary to the amount of revenue. But we also show that along the way, which, you know, incrementally increases but doesn’t necessarily follow along with the differences that you see. So, you know, I don’t purport that this study will show you how to set up your advertising department. But it will tell you that you can’t assume this thing happens in a vacuum and without labor.

[00:40:03.11] spk_1:
Yes. Okay. Well, and you’re a digital uh, advertising agency in at least in part, how much of a full time employee would you do you estimate it would take for? Well, it doesn’t really well for a smaller organization, let’s say they let’s say someone has just 10 employees or fewer like what, how many, what percentage of a full time employees time would that size organization Spending on ads if they were gonna move themselves from the 60% that don’t advertise at all to the 40% that do

[00:40:20.81] spk_0:
an interesting framing there. If you had 10 employees according to a study, you’d have an average revenue of roughly call it 2.3 million your median ad spend for that cluster would be $2100 and You know, oh, that doesn’t require a full time employee. But it’s gonna take about, you know, 2100

[00:40:28.61] spk_1:
That’s in a year. That’s 2100 a year. Yeah. So you’re just spending a little under $200 a month.

[00:40:40.21] spk_0:
I mean, Yeah, I mean and and and 2000. Yeah,

[00:40:42.12] spk_1:
22,000, exactly. 200 a month will be 2400 a year. So you’re saying 2100. So

[00:41:49.21] spk_0:
Yeah. So for that number that’s, that’s easily managed in 10% of somebody’s time depending on the type of Advertising activity that you’re doing. The hope is that that allows you enough to test where there’s value and increase that number, ads can be spent for a number of different reasons. And this is getting back to maybe why my assumption on fundraising was so flawed is ads may be spent to spread awareness of a topic a theme to increase public awareness. I don’t know for vaccines for health research, it’s not necessarily direct 1-1 ratio with fundraising. However, and if you are able and you are trying to turn one ad dollar into two donated dollars and you figure out a way to do that. It’s the hope that spending that and having somebody paying attention to it may figure out a way to get a bit of a little bit of a money engine going for you, spending adds to increase donations to the organization. And that Is a hope of this study. It is a hope that you’re saying, you know what it is worth, frankly 20% of someone’s time to play around with some amount of money that would let us learn and then do more of what works.

[00:42:29.30] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. That’s a pretty good wrap up actually. But I’ll give you a chance to to make it official because we’ve, you’ve covered all your explicit findings in the, in the study which folks can get at whole whale dot com slash advertising very appropriately named simple. Uh, simple U. R. L. Whole whale dot com slash advertising. What would you like to leave folks with George?

[00:42:33.10] spk_0:
I think that point lands hopefully. Well, and I haven’t offended any older organizations out there from which only only older,

[00:42:41.44] spk_1:
only older people. You haven’t offended any organization, not just the older people

[00:42:45.18] spk_0:
For 4% of them. Right.

[00:42:48.60] spk_1:
Well, that was, that was a differential, but it seemed

[00:42:51.50] spk_0:
Like it was 100% of those people were offended before.

[00:42:56.31] spk_1:
No, no, no, no. The way you did it, it was, it was wider.

[00:42:59.55] spk_0:
It was

[00:43:00.19] spk_1:

[00:43:00.78] spk_0:
differential. I

[00:43:07.30] spk_1:
understand the differential was 4%. You didn’t offend only 4% of People over 45. Now you offended most of us.

[00:44:35.79] spk_0:
That’s, that’s pretty good. Well, I’ll be joining you shortly so I can, I can join in the offending club. I uh, I will say that there is a lot to, to dig into here, but it is really meant to be an asset for anyone making the case in an organization to say, Hey, why don’t we try this? Why don’t we try to spend? It seems like our counterparts that are in this field are doing so in learning and so if you’re not spending, you’re not learning. And when I look at platforms, social platforms, that purport to be, you know, ways for you to get this organic traffic that will magically come to your site. So if you are posting, for example, on facebook, on instagram, frankly on most social platforms, you are losing money because the platform truly for for non profits for companies. Social media platforms are advertising platforms first and social platforms. Second, one more time. If you are a company, if you are a non profit Social Media is an advertising platform 1st And in an organic social network. 2nd, possibly distant second. Depending on which one we’re talking about. And so it’s like sending somebody in your communications remarketing department to work without a computer by not saying, hey, here’s a bit add money to play with and learn what might be possible for us. So that’s, that’s the thought I want to leave you with. I think.

[00:45:10.89] spk_1:
All right and not just me. All our listeners. Thank you. He’s George wegner He’s the chief. Well, at whole whale, whole whale dot com hotmail dot com slash advertising for the nonprofit advertising benchmark study. If you’re on twitter there at whole whale, thank you, George. Terrific. Thanks for sharing and thanks for being a good sport captain. Ahab. Mhm.

[00:45:11.69] spk_0:
Thanks Tony. Thanks for having us

[00:45:42.49] spk_1:
next week purpose driven marketing. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And let me remind you how simple it is to be a nonprofit radio sponsor. Just email, tony up, tony-martignetti dot com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff

[00:45:57.79] spk_2:
shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit

[00:46:15.59] spk_1:
ideas for the However, go out and be great.

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schnoll Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn die gastric if I had the stomach. The idea that you missed Today’s show. Nineteen ntcdinosaur n. Ten We kick off our coverage of the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference with intends CEO Aimee Semple Ward. She dishes on the conference, including its wonderful food, Portland and the organization she leads and strong social ads on one hundred dollars a month. You can have an effective social media advertising campaign on a small budget if you plan smartly for your targeting, messaging and measuring. George Winer is co founder of Power Poetry Dot or GE, and that was recorded at the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference on Tony’s Take two Grieving in your plant e-giving. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service, fund-raising Data driven and Technology enabled. Twenty dahna may slash pursuing by what your CPS guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Tell us Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash Tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy Text NPR to four four four nine nine nine Here we kick off our nineteen ninety six coverage with Amy Sample Ward. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of nineteen ninety si. You know what that is? It’s the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference were at the convention center in Portland, Oregon, This interview. Like all of our nineteen ntcdinosaur views brought to you by our partners at ActBlue free fund-raising tools to help non-profit make an impact there, Right next door here. I know you can see him on the video you got, you got you got a piece of them in the video and with me now is the CEO of the hosting organization of NTC, which a lot of people call. And ten we’LL get to that. But the organization is in ten. The conferences NTC and Amy Sample Ward is the CEO of and ten and, of course, our social media and technology contributor on non-profit radio as well. It’s wonderful to see you. Thank you. It’s nice to get to be in person as we say that every year, but it’s the only chance we get. Exactly. Teo I’LL have to coordinate a trip to New York at the same time is a records show. Yeah, that would be very nice if you could put it on a Friday. Friday. Wanted to. Were still same as we used to. Try and make it happen. How many years have you been out here now? Six, five six. Have I been well? I used to be out here. Well, yes, you were born here, but I moved back. Yeah, six years ago. Six years ago this summer. Because that’s six years ago this summer. I will have been the CEO. Okay, June. That’s right. You took you took in June. And before that, you were the membership director, Correct. But on non-profit radio? Much, much longer than that. Why do you know so much about me? This is like a strange fact findings. Because because because I’m common knowledge doesn’t know its way here. And I knew you think I don’t think I have a page on like a piano? I don’t think so. I don’t either. I don’t think it’s something you need to aspire to necessarily. No, no, just just sharing. Your parents will feel bad about that. Um, all right. So we’re at NTC, which a lot of people say we’re at intent. I had I had probably a dozen people e mail me ami it inten Yeah, I’m going to intern. I heard you going to Inten. I don’t bother to correct him. Do you know you could probably get one hundred times more than I do? Do you correct them, or do you just accept it? We don’t necessarily say. Oh, you said the wrong thing way. Just respond with Yes, we’LL see you at the NTC. You do that. You know I do the same thing, you know, in conversation or email. We do that. But on Monday and Tuesday, a lot of the work of whichever staff person was currently that we call it Social Media Captain, whoever’s the ones you know, staffing social media for that. Well, we do like, two hours at a time. Otherwise you get, you know, subject to the Internet. A lot of their work the couple days before the conference is replying to people that are using the wrong hashtag. Okay, then say it’s not in ten, nineteen, nineteen antisocial people. Do you know, Tio, they do every combination of N ten in the year and ntcdinosaur the year. Yeah, so Ah, lot of it is just so glad you’re excited. Please use the actual half way. Have these for a reason. Right? Okay, so we are at NTC, which is hosted by and ten. Correct. Okay, we’ve said that correctly. So I see the way I’m opposite the thie audience. Big center, stage, stage, office at the main stage. And I saw a right now it says gender neutral bathrooms, restrooms. But earlier, I always say bathroom too. And the other day, reward restrooms made that intentional kind of thought of. Well, you don’t take a bath. No, I know, but so a restroom is really just We’re not really resting either. Depending on what we all know, health is bringing the status of your health may not be resting either, but I do see two three four five two thousand three hundred forty five registrants so fast that yesterday’s lowercased eso still killer still. Yeah, I see. One thousand four hundred seventy four. First time registrants. Yeah, enormous it is. It’s higher than we usually have a way. Were chatting about it. All right. Wait. You have a nutrition problem, I think. Well, I think it is also important. Remember that this is the most attendings we’ve ever had. So it isn’t as surprising that there’s that, that there’s a significant bump in new folks because we’ve never been in Portland before. It has a proportion, but I’m just saying the NTC has never been important lit. So that’s a lot of folks who’ve never had the conference come to their area, even if it’s not Portland, you know, the larger region. And the last time the NTC was in the Pacific Northwest was Seattle in, like two thousand five. So ah lot, you know, the this the Washington, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Alaska what we consider the Pacific Northwest. Those five states haven’t had an NTC in a super long time. So I think there’s a lot more folks from the greater region that came out this year that have never come. Okay, Okay. Yeah, we’re also exciting that that many new folks where you come in great energy Yeah, yeah. Now are their stats on longest the greatest longevity and NTC scene that slide. Well, we don’t necessarily, you know, in the super early days, there wasn’t like a database that was trying to track it. So we don’t have. We don’t have the receipts from, you know, two thousand, two thousand one two thousand two. But we do track how many folks have hit the ten year mark, and I think that we have a slide. I think it’s like seventy six that are here. Have been to ten or more. Okay, that’s that’s a yes, I have to. You know it. Shout out ntcdinosaur and intend for the slide. I just saw that you were very It’s very friendly. I think there’s a breastfeeding in lactation room on, and it’s not often the corner. It’s right by the elevators. Prominent? Yes, you have a You have a meditation room and meditation and Ricky prayer room by room. Yes, so that you know, because this this can’t be cacophonous and right fast learning and oh, my God, I’m overwhelmed. How could I bring all this back and you need to settle right Then we have folks who feel like they have to miss an entire session block because they need to go back to their hotel to make sure that they can pray to certain time like No, Just come downstairs for those fifteen minutes and pray and go back to your session, you know? Yeah. Very, very welcoming way. Wanted to be level of all d ay, you’re inclusive. You welcoming. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for noticing those efforts. Yeah, I appreciate that. Because that takes time and money and stat. Yeah, of course. Of course. Um so Wei have three hundred sessions here. Nineteen. We’ve got one hundred eighty over three hundred speakers. Your speakers, because you got a lackluster host. I’m sorry, but it’s OK. I’m here to correct the facts. Yes. No, fake is okay, right? Please don’t. Okay, So three hundred speakers out of eighty session. Yeah, we’ve got a record here. Non-profit Radio thirty seven. Wow, They’re having interviews. That’s going to be a full schedule. It is. It is. Yeah, that’s awesome. Last year was twenty eight or thirty, Okay. Thirty seven thirty seven. Every session, every every session block shoutout to ash. Who by? By sending emails told speakers that he wouldn’t have been coordinating with. Yeah, he was. He was excellent. Great. Helped us get a record. Great. I don’t know. You’d have to You have to extend the conference for us to have it. Or, you know we’re not We’re not. How would you say? I guess we’re not sustainable, right? We’re not scaleable scaleable. Thank you. You’re correct. We’re not scaleable. We are sustainable. We’re not scaleable. Yes, you’LL have to expand the conference for us to get more than you or I don’t know. I don’t eat lunch. Don’t you don’t get a restroom break. Neither of which is sustainable, right? Crack or feasible? What else we got? Menus. Your food here is always very good. Always a gluten free gluten free options Vegan Kosher. Hello. Everything excellently taken care in there that cost money. It costs a lot of money across a gross amount of money. Kosher in law was a lot more than well, just bring out, you know, brings whatever you got. Yeah, fifty percent of our menu has to be gluten free and begin so that already costs a lot of use because they consider that specialty meals they do. Is that because of institutional policy at inten? Yeah, we just know that by doing that were also ensuring that there are other corollary allergies that are being taken care of and accommodates a lot more folks with that kind of level. Yeah, yeah, it’s time for a break Pursuant. The Art of First Impressions. How to combine Strategy, analytics and creative to captivate new donors and keep them coming back. That’s their e book on donor acquisition and how to make a smashing first impression. It’s at the listener landing page, of course. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital P for please. Now back to nineteen ntcdinosaur and in ten Tell us about the keynote speaker. Oh, Italy in Bombay, you don’t eat. Elina loved that Italy abila. Yes, please. She is incredible. She is, ah, community activist and technologist and on everything on. And we asked her to join us and share some of her experience interviews, specifically because of her work at the intersection of kind of traditional non-profit, work-life isn’t necessarily one campaign or one organizing effort, but you know, meant to be kind of sustained programs over time. And what does it look like to do that with folks who are only going to be engaged for one protest or one march or one campaign, one program? Maybe that maybe they will be inspired to join after that, but you’re not necessarily banking on that, right? So her experience and work at at those two intersections, all of it because of technology she has. I mean, she shared this morning, but also a lot of what she’s passionate about is making sure that everyone who works for social impact, whether you’re in a non-profit, you’re building your own activism, your community organizer in your community that you are ensuring you have tech skills because that is going to be what helps us win these fights, right? You have to be able to organize online. Teo, use the Internet to find information like all of those pieces, that it’s not some IT department in a sophisticated organisation, every single person working for change needs to invest in their own tech skills to be able to really organize and fight. Now, other days, lots of conferences would have multiple keynote speakers, right? You don’t do that. We don’t have one keynote speaker. Yes, and then the other s o tomorrow and Friday. You have the ignite session. Yeah, so tomorrow are ignites. There are six different people and they are all telling stories their stories are very different from each other. But all of their stories are about how we can use the Internet to change our communities, change our organizations, change the world. And on Friday we announce our three awards, the Antenna or the Lifetime Achievement Award, and the Robb Stark Memorial Ward. So Friday is brunch. We got a jazz band. There is even more food than we already provide on we’LL just announce those community words. Okay? Yeah. When do we get the announcement? About twenty. And tc, uh, twenty. They’re all up on the website. So in twenty twenty, we will be in Baltimore in twenty twenty are Sorry. Yes, twenty twenty ntcdinosaur, Baltimore twenty one and TC is in Pittsburgh and twenty two anti sees in Denver. Okay, Pittsburgh for months in college. Really? I don’t know that Carnegie Mellon. Oh, cool. I don’t know that I like Pittsburgh latto hyre life Pittsburgh to and especially when we’re talking about the non profit sector and the tech sector those to the intersection of them also those two have are really changing pittsburgh right now. Si mun pit with Nelson. Yeah, right. And the Russians have been so many drugs in the tech companies and start ups there. There’s non-profits who’ve been there for a hundred years. And there’s non-profits, who are just starting. You know, it’s a really vibrant city, so I’m excited to go there for the NTC. They’ve had a true revolution. That was That was steel, steel, steel manufacturing, right. Industrial city. Yeah. Back is Justus. Recent is like the seventies there would be Sometimes the street lights would have to come on in the middle of the day. So the guy gets the coal ash. Right? So that’s an off on output of steel manufacturing like that. I mean, it was it was a dirty durney manufacturing city, but that, you know, a part of the industrial Revolution, our industrial economy. Yeah. Yeah, then But now very high tech biotech, right. The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. Huge. So huge in, in medical, medical tech, Andi, Also in some incredible museums and art organizations, they’re so yeah, really, I’m excited, but I’m also excited for Baltimore next year. You know, Baltimore has seen ah, lot of visibility and news. I think in ways that folks can believe things about Baltimore make generalizations about Baltimore that aren’t aren’t consistent with the lived experience of the community there, you know, and especially with intense focus on digital equity, there’s a lot of work in Baltimore right now to make sure people have access and are getting online are part of the Internet world. So I’m really excited for what we can dio in Baltimore and, you know, things we can lift up from the local community at the conference, which, you know, is part of what we’re always doing trying to make sure people are out in connecting and experiencing the city when they come to a conference. So yeah, yes. So So for so many years, you were wedded tio contracts that have been signed years ago and you were alternative, and they don’t exist anymore. Your This is your first year of freedom, isn’t it? From those two. New Orleans was our first was seventeen and DC was our last DC contract. Okay, Okay. I brought a piece of nostalgia and you gave me and I forgot to get it because I was so excited to get started. Could you bring me R? She’s off camera dancing around my laptop bag. Please. Please. There’s a bit of a well, so excited. It’s not too far back. Okay, So what else can we, uh What else You want to acquaint us with nineteen NTC? What? I mean, I’m I’m really excited for this year because we have a couple different kinds of sessions in the past. You know, we’ve always had ninety minute sessions and they could take different formats, panels or presentation. One day, seventy five, there were ninety. But now, this year, we’ve introduced tactical sessions, so these are intentionally short. They’re only thirty minutes long. They’re meant to just be, like, truly tactical. You know, these are five tools you can use to do X. You know, eso folks can use that as their time to just, you know, pick their new photo editor or there what? You know, whatever and get really specific advice about how do I do this thing in WordPress or whatever it might be? So the click candy of conference, right? Right. Third, and it’s quick. Right? Learn something fast in five hundred, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So we’re excited just to test that out this year and see how it goes. See what we can learn from that. How to make it better for next year. But I’m excited that we can have both of those. So it’s not always big, heavy, brain taxing topics. There’s also some that are like we just had lunch. I just want you to tell me what app to use, You know, for managing Twitter or something. And I want to go. Okay, So, yeah. Was that staff driven or community community idea? Yeah. Community folks have been asking for, you know, not a thirty minute session specifically, but they’ve been asking for other ways to get Mohr lighter way tactical content and wondering, You know, if you have a whole ninety minutes, we’ll you’re going tohave to cover like, here’s one hundred tools that you you know. And that’s not helpful, because now it’s overwhelmingly a long list. Eso We’ve heard that community feedback for a few years, and this was our our first attempt that howto make it happen. All right. Yeah. So what’s your nostalgia? I only sixteen. I brought the last print. Yeah, Print program guide in programme programme. Exactly. I have to say these were from the non-profit radio perspective. This is actually more convenient for me? Yeah, because I could have it out, you know, And I could go right to I had all the pages Dog eared for which session? Our interview next See there highlighted their starred It it was always there for me, so I would just like it’s like you’re conference here, but they would lay flat. Yeah. And then I could just pass this off to the person doing our postproduction. Heywood have all he It always was a guy. He would have the information that he needed, and I didn’t have to type it out, right? Were sent him to a site. Um, it was a lot easier for me, but see, instead I had a bottle. You know, we have a pdf version of the agenda that you can have that in print. I guess I could go on. All right. All right. I’m not sure, but I think this is a keeper. This is like the last er, Yeah, the last stapled Rolling Stone magazine, Right? Exactly. Exactly. Um, let’s talk about D I Okay. And as it relates to the conference in ten. Very conscious of diversity equity and inclusion aside. Well, you certainly mentioned prayer rooms. Very important. What else? What else? Folks should know that this is a very conscious, consciously designed conference. Sure. I mean, I guess there’s a few different layers we could talk about. One is the kind of surface experience layer where, yes, you could go to a prayer room. You can get pronoun ribbons. You can use a gender neutral restroom. Those kind of surface level things, the next layer down are things that only some people see and that is work we do with speakers. We give them communications and training ahead of time, orientation ahead of time. And then we give them essentially like reminder sheets in their room that remind them of, you know, not saying you guys not saying I t guy or, you know, whatever. What? What can be a common micro aggression as a speaker, you know, on ly calling on certain people. So we try and train them to be ready, act in a way that is consistent with how we want this conference to go on, and then the next layer down from that are things that folks probably don’t see at all, which are, you know, the policies and practices we have for picking and engaging vendors. You know, anyone that works with us has to commit to our policies. Has Teo participate in an open process? We invite certain folks to apply to be vendors, you know. So there are things that happen behind the scenes that also help create the accountability kind of a true beginning of that chain that we really want to be part of. We’re told every year by the convention center that we work with, that they have never had, which I can’t believe it’s true but whole different. They tell us different, convey that they’ve never had anybody say we will only be here if we can have gender neutral restrooms that we will only be here if you open up your process to hyre folks of color if you know. So when we put that out. Convention center staff say we’ve never been asked this before. We’ve never been asked to meet these expectations. We will, you know, let’s go work to do this. And some of the folks we worked with have said Now that you’re demanding this of us, I’m in a position to tell, you know the place I work. They need these standards. But I may need to work in this way, Graham. Right? Exactly. So then we can influence that process for other folk enforcing it through the organically right? On DH they’LL they’ll do it they’Ll They’re not only their consciousness raised, but they’Ll adopt policies. Um, right, organically right on DH for market for market driven purposes they want they want attract other conferences. Exactly. And they can now make Now, hold this out as an attribute, whereas before in ten game, right, they didn’t even But maybe they don’t even have consciousness. If they did, they didn’t happen on organizational was important when we’re talking about, you know, organisational institutional power and how to use that power. You know, it is in that way in negotiation, in contracting. But also, you know, we have in our policies that we will not hold any of our conference is in a state that has laws that discriminate. So when you know, a certain state says, hey, we really want you to come and we say Great, Will. You just introduced this bill. We will not come to your state. They you know we are not an organisation that, like has lobbyists and does that kind of work just have the money that you spent. But a convention center does. Right giant hotel chains dio eso when we tell them we will not come there. We will not give, you know, the Marriott or the Hilton or whoever any more money unless you go send your lobbyist to take down that bill from your state Congress. That’s also a form of institutional power that we want to be consciously wielding. Well, then, New York is open and North Carolina is out. Its true North Carolina’s out and Indiana’s out, he says. Well, um, my wife and I live in two different cities. If everybody knows that, you might have heard that from times. If you listen, a lot of you may have, you may have heard rumors to that effect. You’re an insider’s true if you’re in sector. Thank you. Wait. We have a couple minutes left. What’s what’s knew it knew it into Well, we’re hiring two positions right now for okay, so we’re hiring office and admin coordinator. So somebody that would be working with all staff on you know, all of the kind of admin processes like renewals and invoices and all of that kind of stuff. But then also working with the technology team on in office technology support, getting Teo learn how to manage a database. We’re We’re thinking of it as essentially our entry level tech job that we’ve never been able to create before, so that we are also building up new technologists who are probably not with a degree in technology or anything like that. And then we’re also hiring a membership and marketing director. That used to be your job. Yes, many, many years ago. Membership included marketing as well. It just wasn’t in the title right on DH. Someone left and created an opening. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And so we use that opportunity, you know, just to kind of really refine what they’ll dio. And we can talk more about this in coming months. But in later this year, in twenty nineteen, we’re going to roll out a new membership model. So they’ll also get to be part of the strategy and implementation of that. Of course, this is like a long time coming. Staff have been doing this work. It’s not we’re not going to get hired and make it up like we’ve already got it. But they’LL be part of how we message it and how we work with the community and that change. I’m a member. You are just mean. The place is going up. No, no, it’s not about that. It’s just the model around membership and and what it means to be a member. What you get is a member s So we will talk about that coming months. Yeah, remind me if I forget to ask. Okay, income share in coming months for sure. And so and let’s make it explicit. Thie, the ten office is in Portland. Yeah, this is where your baby This is our timeline at home. Yeah, the first time you ever said that. You said that before? Yes. And you. But of course, you do have virtual employees. We know that we know that from previous conversations. How many? How many here in Portland? We have eleven in Portland. When we have three that are remote. We’re hiring too, So we’LL see how that goes. Okay, so you’re going up to sixteen. You have sixteen staff. Does that sound right? Um love Oh, I’m messing on the math Wrong We’LL be at fifteen eleven threes fourteen Oh, yes. A ten, ten and ten and three plus two. Okay, Yeah. Okay. Um, we could leave it there or we could talk for another minute. So let’s talk for a minute. I don’t get to see you that often. Yeah, well, what’s So what’s new with non-profit radio, I would say the biggest thing in new on non-profit radio. Well, very exciting. The AC bilich sponsorship. Yeah, Sponsorship. ActBlue isn’t awesome. Yes, vendor partner in the sector. We appreciate that they are a good one to partner with you. You know, I would’ve told you if they were a bad one. You know that e I know you would’ve You would’ve looked out for me. Thank you. So that’s very exciting to have a kind of of prestigious partner on the other thing. Nuit non-profit radio would be the insider side of videos that are a little late on rolling out there. They’re having they’re gonna have them there on my phone, there in the zoom. There isn’t a cloud. Nice postproduction by me has not been not done yet, but yes, only insiders and get a little deeper. Dive. Ah, short short form five, five five six minutes. Video Deeper Dive with a guest. Then What about What about outside of non-profit radio? What other work stuff? We never talked about your works. We talked about my work study plan giving consulting? Yeah. Twenty nineteen to very, very Marquis names. I’m now consulting and playing giving for what is now Brady. How it used to be the Brady Center or the Brady campaign to prevent Gun violence right now. Just rebranding within the past few weeks. They rolled out there. Brady? Yeah. Thank you for doing work with them. And I am their plan giving council. Yeah, it’s a pleasure. Yeah. On DA. This is a very big year for them. Twenty fifth anniversary of the signing of the bill. Right? Fortieth anniversary of ah, they have another there. They have another anniversary to know. I didn’t know that I was a twenty fifth anniversary of the signing. The Brady Bill? Yeah, on the other theater, marquee name really is visiting their service of New York. Oh, cool. Huge agency? Yeah. Have fifteen thousand employees, right? Two billion dollars in revenue. Yeah, and written work. I am building their plan giving program as well. Oh, great landing. Yeah. Thank you for doing all of that. Does important work way. We never get to talk about it. We don’t because I don’t like, you know, like, what if I get to interview you one day? Let’s not get carried away. Wait, Let’s leave it there. And now it is time. I have to say goodbye. Okay? Having me, thank you for being a part of this fun. Three days. This is our fifth. Yeah, it’s not probably fifty NTC. Yeah, but I haven’t been to a session yet. Oh, my God. You look, you get your own version of the session with speakers here. Dio How many? I get thirty seven sessions. Right. Get the quick, get the short version. The thing. Get the thirty minute version of thirty seven sessions. Yeah, she’s Amy Sample Ward, CEO of and ten. And we’re in nineteen ninety Sea. She’s also the social media and technology contributor for non-profit radio. And this interview, like all our ntcdinosaur nineteen ninety si interviews, is brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thank you so much for being with us. We need to take a break. Wagner, CPS. They’ve got a free webinar coming up. It’s on April sixteenth. Tips and tricks for your nine ninety. The best part of this, I think, is the part that talks about increasing the PR value of your IRS. Form nine ninety using different sections, including Narrative for Marketing because you’re nine ninety is widely available. Guide Star, Charity Navigator, your own site and widely read by potential donors. Regular cps dot com Click seminars and then go to April. Now time for Tony Stick, too. Grieving is part of your plan giving program. I’m still grieving my father in law’s death early late late last week. Um, and it got me thinking in my sadness that there’s grieving as a part of your plan to giving program. And that is when relatives call you to tell you that someone who was a donor to your organization has died. They might be calling because the donor had you in their life insurance. Or maybe it was a charitable gift annuity. Whatever the reason, grieving people will contact you when, ah, when your plan giving donors die on. I’m I’m talking here about when family members contact you, not when it’s an attorney’s office. That’s that’s different there. They’re not grieving the way family members do. So I’m talking about the family members calling on DH. You need Teo Teo Treat this special and I talk about it in my video. I’ve got some tips there, you know, like making sure that you keep your promises. For instance, meet your deadlines. All the more reason to do that with someone who’s grieving and, ah, and needy and and not at their best by any means. So I’ve got some ideas on my video as it occurred to me as a ZAY was grieving and that the video is that tony martignetti dot com Now let’s go back. Let’s go to George Whiner and Strong Social ads on one hundred dollars a month. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of nineteen ninety Sea. It’s the twenty nineteen non-profit Technology Conference We’re sponsored by our partners. At Act blew all the interviews that nineteen ninety cr they have free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact. My guest is George Whiner. He is co founder of Power poetry dot or GE George. Welcome. Hey, thanks for having me. Pleasure. Pleasure to have you on the show. Your topic is effective. Social media advertising on one hundred dollars a month. This is doable. Yeah. I mean, that’s why we titled the session that way. Why would we do it? Otherwise, you might Maybe you’ve ah, had sessions in the past that were not well enough. Attended. So you needed to kind of lead in. Well, the problem was, we originally started with ninety nine dollars. No one believed it. You know what that extra dollar made? All the difference. All the impact came in that last dollar. Very good. You have us your own podcast. What is that? What you give a shout out for your own? Well, we do appreciate the love the whole well dot com slash podcast is social impact tech talking about stories in the nonprofit world where people find that you can find that at a whale dot com slash podcast culwell whole whale dot com dot com slash podcast. Okay. No. And you’LL give a shout out to non-profit radio next time you’re in front of Mike. We absolutely will. Okay, we will. Hey, we could have a crossover episode cross over. That sounds intimate. I don’t know. It’s all right. We’Ll get there. We’re talking about our here. We could talk. We’re going to figure this out zoho old hands first. Um OK, so you say this is doable. I believe you. I believe you. That is the session topic. So identifying the best platforms. How do we How do we pick our best platforms for ah r o I of our our our small investment. Oh, my gosh. I feel like people playing at home should do the bingo card. Every time we say roo I the return on investment or K p I you can start to mark off the bingo cards. Choosing the right platform you’re right is saying, you know, where do we go to find the audiences that we want to resonate, that we want Teo to bring to our site or convert to action and just at a high level, you know, spoiler alert. Frankly, we’re starting with Facebook and Google. They’re very big, like we’ve heard revealing artefact. Yes, yes, you can Google to that effect. So it’s a good place to start because frankly, if you want Teo, go where the humans are there, there. And anyone who says the teens are not on Facebook anymore have forgotten that Facebook owns a little company called Instagram Whatsapp and continues to grow. So your audience is likely there. And so starting with those platforms is a eyes, a safe bet. Okay, now, I had someone on earlier today say that her advice is regarding Facebook, that you not use Facebook for fund-raising, but use it as a referral source back to your own site. Because the data around fund-raising isn’t shared by Facebook, which we that that seems that’s common knowledge. So Tio not sacrifice data beyond Facebook because billions of people are but use it to drive people to your own site for actual donations. Is that consistent with your advice? Yeah, these are various flavors, and and the funny thing about you’re going to say no. No, it’s not. Funny thing about Facebook is like tactics or temporary. I understand what you your core question was there is, like, follow the data. Am I getting the data? What is the value of that? Am I decreasing friction, However, by having a Facebook fund-raising button. By the way, we’ve had organizations that turned on the Facebook fund-raising button and with no other activity whatsoever, literally just cash checks for tens of thousands of dollars. So it would be an error to, say, Ignore this, reduce friction. However, if you are driving a campaign, if you are creating messaging by all means, send them to a owned platform by own platform. I mean, you get the money and you get the data because, by the way, like you mentioned, if you can’t follow up with that one hundred or five hundred dollars donor, you are losing out on the lifetime customer value, which can be estimated at roughly three ex initial investment. Well, like that’s that three three times mission. So if you look at if you look at selling widgets, right, three to five acts is what if we were selling e commerce like you’re selling blankets or glasses, that user comes on and now they’re modeling in general, they look at that. You can also look at sort of em in our benchmarks, knowing that you’re only going to keep, you know, one out of four thereabouts or one out of five thereabouts of that first time investor. But you kept them. He kept that donor so retention Israel. And it’s probably a lot less on Facebook. Okay, amend our M in our bench market report. What is that? Men are It is Ah, you know, quickly. Ah, it’s ah organization that does a lot of consulting, but also a very well known benchmarking. Reports of the M in our benchmarks come out they, like, analyzed about two thousand on profits pull together a tidy little report. I’m not familiar with it. And our non-profit radio, We have jargon jail. I went to Dragon chaillou. You’re in, you’re in. But it’s easy. It’s easy to get out. Probation is plus Now I should say parole parole is widely available. Um, okay, that was Facebook. So Google, you wanted to be taking advantage of the Google advance? Well, before we were all away from Facebook, there is more Facebook. So we’re talking about a hundred dollars like the last thing I feel like most people want to dio is give Mark Zuckerberg another dollar and I like pause there, and it kind of kills me that I’m like at a non-profit conference saying Hey, you know, needs like another overpriced hoody, That gentleman. Now I’m gonna pause again and say Facebook is not a social media platform. Stop the podcast. Replay that Facebook, if you are a business, is not a social media platform. It is an ad platform. If you think it is a social media platform and if you think it’s free, you are incorrect. Every minute your social media team spends on creating the perfect post the right picture putting it up on every Tuesday at three PM you have spent time. Time is money. You were already e-giving value toe a platform that, by the way, reduces through the drank, reduces the amount of people seeing your post on your platform. So by not paying you were actually losing money. Reduces the number of people flush this out for me. Sure. So let’s say you have forty thousand people on your Facebook page which power poetry does in twenty fifteen. That was awesome. We made a post and of that audience, ten to twenty percent potentially hyre. If we did our job right would see that post that’s tons of impressions, tons of traffic. Today, that number is well under five percent and decreasing, meaning every post doesn’t go to every person the same way that if I had an email list of forty thousand people, we actually get analytics. It ends up in their inbox. Is if I send a text message, We know that it’s arriving. There is not the same way on Facebook and thinking that is an error. Okay, So if you are a business, do not be thinking of Facebook as a social media. It is an add plastic. It’s a A. All right, How are we gonna y How do we wisely spend one hundred dollars? All right, let’s get to the hundred dollars and paying attention to what we want out of Facebook. You mentioned accurately. Before that, maybe we want donations. We’LL precursor to donations are emails, relationships, relationships built over time, you’ve had many guests that talk about nurturing those relationships. Now you can spend anywhere from you know, we’ve seen numbers at fifty cents to two dollars to get relevant emails, registrants people on your newsletter that you can a nurture a relationship over the next nine months and get that donation. By all means. You can also go right for the hard. Ask the will you marry me on the spot? Type of like give me money. However, it makes more sense to overtime buildup. That list and Facebook has an ad platform is frankly creepy and fantastic. You, Khun Target any subset a person you can look and create lookalike audiences from your existing email list. Your existing donors You, Khun target people that are friends of your existing donors. The amount thie amount of targeting and options, uh, is daunting. However, if you focus on what you’re after, For example, the emails that lead two dollars you confined value confined are why there The same way that a company selling sweatshirts online does you can sell the opportunity to get to your organization. Okay. Okay, um more you want to say about Facebook before we, uh oh. I don’t think I could rant and on and on, and I really No, no, I I’m excited. I I I couldn’t let that topic go away and tio my big thing this year. Tony, My big thing is making sure that I say the words Facebook is not a social media platform. If you are a business, it is *** platform and P s Instagram is next. Oh, yeah, Yes. Got to take a break. Tell us you were in fifty percent of the fee. When cos you refer process their card transactions with Tello’s we’re talking debit credit card transactions. The small fees add up, you get half of them and that’s what makes your long tail of passive revenue their video explaining it all is on the listener landing page at Tony dahna em a slash Tony, tell us you watch it, then have the cos you’re thinking about referring Watch it and then make your ask. Would they make the switch to tell us for a long stream of passive revenue for your non-profit? Durney dahna may slash Tony Tell us, Let’s do the live listener love. It’s gotta happen. Uh, we are pre recorded this week, but the live love goes out nonetheless. You know that the live love is not mitigated or dampened or hampered or hindered or minimized Ah, or trivialized by any means or any of those synonyms that you could think of. So if you’re listening live, the love goes out to you. And if you’re listening by podcast, the pleasantries goes out, go out to you. Try to keep the noun and verb agreement in sentences. It’s what? The storm. That’s why that’s why I’m aspiring to. So the pleasantries go out to the podcast audience to our over thirteen thousand listeners. Thank you for being in our podcast audience now back to George Whiner. But I want to turn. I want to turn over to Google because Google’s awesome. You mentioned the So You want two more months? Yeah, great. You want to see us focusing on add grants or you got something else because we have a couple of guests already talking about at all right, So you know, I grant you, Let’s talk about your God, the actual dollars that we can apply to Google. Google. Another fantastic at platform Add grants are an incredible gift. That said, there’s been some updates that put handcuffs on the grant, namely, you are now. If you were in the ad grant as of right now talking in twenty nineteen, do you want you? Only your ads only hit remnant inventory, so that means the people that are paying go first, and once they have maxed out those positions you are then given access to remnant Inventory, which is still awesome. Still drives traffic, however, if in your ad grant and this is your homework. If in your aggregate you realize there are certain words that literally print money, traffic users, emails, whatever it is, throw fifty bucks at it. Say, Hey, we’re gonna actually pay to show up in the prime position at the prime hour for conversion rate and let’s pay for and see what happens. Look, if you could turn one dollar into two dollars, do that. And by the way, if you’re dealing with, say, puppy adoption and your local community and you realize that like nine p. M. On a Thursday is like puppy a clock and you realize that that’s when people are looking, spend the time. Get those people onto your site when they’re in that buying frame because you don’t have that level of control with ag grants. Its a little bit more distributed, and you’re sort of second in line. Your second. Alright, alright, but so now if you if you do test this and it does well, you’re you’re encouraging organises orders too. Spend spend money to get the higher rank and not just get the remnant inventory. If this test goes well, invest more in it. Even though you have the Google at Grand, even though you have the Gula grant, the Agron is wonderful for testing ground for paying attention to what’s working across many different areas could get ten thousand dollars, use it or lose it a month. But if there is something again that is of high value, you know, take, you know, take off the hat of like, Oh, we’re getting for free. Why would we pay for it? Because you will get better positioning as you mentioned, better priority of time and placement. And you know what? I’m talking about one hundred dollars a month and I’m doing that. I’m not saying spend twelve hundred dollars all at once. I really want people to think about this as drumbeat advertising not to campaign advertising, not one and done. Because we just don’t learn. Because by the way, you Khun spend twelve hundred dollars in one day and learn absolutely nothing on either of these platforms. Okay. Okay, um, targeting the audience going, Can we switch the audiences durney instead of platforms? Khun, we’re speaking audiences were latto audiences. We are We’re speaking tio, not radio, since both insiders and casual visitors How do we? Uh, well, let’s let’s go back to Facebook. As you said, it’s It’s, uh, what would you say? Fantastic and creepy at the same time? Yeah, Useful, angry. Be peaceful, Creepy. How do we How do we start to target the right the right right audiences on Facebook. So when you’re talking about your audience, you know, think about it more abstractly first, and we can talk about the, you know, brand personas that you imagine. And if created with your your various marketing firms or internal, you know, your internal activities, you know who does our message resonate? Who do we want to resonate with Now we can think about it from the perspective of you know, you’re probably thinking immediately because you’re in the nonprofit sector. How do we get more money? How do we get more donors? However, there’s some organizations, for instance, that are interested in shaping the hearts and minds of let’s say, college students around a certain topic. Call it I don’t know reproductive rights, or let’s say you’re interested in shaping how government officials in a certain area are thinking about the importance of water rights. These are all opportunities to make sure your message shows up in front of that audience because you can have, for instance, a thirty second p ece a bit of awareness and you can actually have a targeted audience. Let’s say I wanted to find all of the college is in all the colleges in California and say, You know what I think is important that you make sure that women feel safe and have an ability to report acts of sexual violence. And here’s thirty seconds on why that’s important. I could then set up a campaign that makes sure that every single dean and above or staff member has seen that at about seven times and roughly for at least ten seconds. What is the value of that level of awareness in that level of targeting? Now? It’s enormous. That is so easy to do on the platform, and that’s just the start of it. We can use the Facebook pixel on your site, which also delivers analytics, but we can use that pickle to retarget. We’ve heard this term before. I don’t want to end up deeper in jargon. Jail retarget just means Hey, there are people that stop by this booth. Now, after two weeks have gone by, I can send an ad in front of them disproved being a metaphor for your Web site. I could send an ad that follows them across instagram Facebook and say, Hey, way know that you were here. He’d probably want to say that, but come back and watch the show and we could do this for one hundred dollars with one hundred dollars. All of this is yours. Retargeting. All right, where do we find these tools on on Facebook? So, fortunately, and unfortunately, Facebook makes it very clear that you should be advertising. And it starts at business, not facebook dot com. So it business dot facebook dot com They’re going to be showing you how to spend money. The thing that grinds my gears actually about the advertising is that most people would have answered that with well inside of your Facebook page, and you go into your posts. And when you’re in the admin view, there’s a little button that says Boost Post that is the biggest rip off on the platform, and I won’t like it. Go too far down this rant. But that is a waste of money ninety five percent of the time because it’s only targeting to your existing audience. It’s also just taking a random message that you happen to post and selling. You reach selling you likes when you could have taken that ten hundred, however many dollars back and look at how much you’re spending on post when you could’ve taken that and done something is fistic ated, as I just mentioned before, turn that into say, Hey, we know that for fifty cents we confined emails of people working at colleges. We can targets so much better than that. So instead of the simple minded and easy instead of the boost post, you need to be going to a business that facebook dot com correct. And you need to set up an ad account. You need to think about the audience. You need to think about the message, how that will resonate and drive toward the outcomes that are going to move your organization forward. Okay, okay. Who’s post? Everybody does that. Everybody does that. You’re a troublemaker. I like causing trouble like No, no, no. When I when I see the tide going the wrong way. But I think when you see this, I going well, yeah, I absolutely agree. Never, never do something because lots of other orders they’re doing it because there’s a lot of crappy practice out there. So the sole reason for doing something should certainly not be Lots of other organizations are doing it. You know, I would like to do, you know, just like a moment of empathy, saying that look when it started, boost Post was actually a decent tactic, and then it became woefully inefficient. Tactics expire, and unfortunately, in our technological landscape at present, they expire faster than ever. And so you’re learning something that’s two years old, and you’re like, That’s still good because the half life of knowledge just dropped off a cliff. And we have many, you know, talented marketers with great instincts that aren’t able to refresh on every single nuance of what’s going on on this platform. So shows like this our helpful conversations like this are helpful, and TC is helpful because we have a chance to be like, Hey, everybody, I found this thing. Don’t do it or do it. What you doing? It powered poetry dot or ge? So what about Yeah, You know, I feel like I have this split split life here. Power poetry dot organs the largest teen poetry platform in the country with roughly four hundred thousand monthly active users on it, creating a safe, creative platform and free, by the way, for young people to share their work. And so they share their work. We have, ah, funny machine learning algorithm that tells them what’s similarity. They are two poets and rap artists, and they learn more. They learn more about their work. And we tricked them into writing more poetry, which is a fantastic literacy and emotional expression. Tools. So that is a co founder there. It’s an incredible organization. We’re always looking for partners. If you have a pulse, will partner with you. Uh and then on the whole whale side, I’m I’m the founder of a whale. A digital impact agency, that there’s an agency behind the podcast. Yeah, Okay, okay. Digital marketing agency culwell digital marketing and also way offer educational tools for non-profits as well through our site. Time for our last break text to give diversify your revenue by adding mobile giving. It is not only for disasters. It is not only for small dollar donations. It does not have to be small. You can build relationships by text. You’re doing it all the time with family and friends. You could do it with your donors. Khun, learn how? By texting NPR to four four four nine nine nine NPR four four four nine nine nine. We’ve got several more minutes for strong social ads on one hundred bucks a month. We still got some time left together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got another seven minutes or so. So, uh, what else? What else did you promise, Teo to those who attend your session, plan a campaign from targeting to messaging to measuring, Measuring? Let’s talk about some measurements. Thank goodness. Because if you didn’t mention it, I was going to mention it. If you don’t measure it, it won’t get better. We’ve heard this statement before, but especially true with ads coming back to why it’s a hundred dollars a month and not throw it away in twelve hundred dollar bonfire on a Tuesday is because it gives us the opportunity to measure What we’re looking for are the signals that those dollars are turning into emails turning into valuable traffic or the outcomes that way seek the she’s. The analytics available on Facebook are fantastic, and it seems you’re spending money. You’re getting so much more than you used to when you bought a billboard or on ad and the, you know, fill in the blank paper. Which is a different problem, however, were getting and looking for things like cost per acquisition. That just means how much money did I have to spend for that email or that click or that engagement? So I want to be paying attention that I’m also using Google Analytics, Google Analytics, a free tool code, every single page of your sight. That thing gives you insights into the source of traffic behavior of the traffic and how people are using your site. And so you want to look at both of those, especially as you’re you’re advertising across platforms, saying, All right, I’ve set up a goal, have configured it, saying, Hey, Google analytics, you know what’s awesome when somebody donates, you know, it’s also awesome when somebody gives us an email set those up his goals so we can see the source of traffic. Did they come through an ad and then sign up or convert, as we call it? Convert toward one of those outcomes. We can analyze that we can create reports, but those of the metrics that we’re looking for things like conversion rate are great things like that. As I mentioned before, cost per acquisition and knowing that for your audience of our great flush out the conversion rate just in case listeners not not familiar with that hundred people come to your website and you happen to know that two of them happened or Ted say ten of them just to make our math easy. Suddenly we have a ten percent conversion rate. If ten of those people signed up for your e mail list, that means, Hey, we may want to pay attention to that more than something that’s a cent traffic to your site and only one out of one hundred one percent ended up converting anything more on measurement seem to be pretty pretty passionate about it before, before I open it up to general topics. What love general traffics. However, get there, we’LL get there on measurement. What’s happening right now is we have a wealth wealth of numbers being thrown out of us and data data burdens. Yeah, we’re sort of drowning in it, which means the signal to noise becomes harder to track. And so coming back to just plain old common sense is a real asset. And I like to think of it as our acquisitions. Perfect example. How much did it cost me to get that even? Unfortunately, also thrown numbers like reach and things like, how much, uh, reach of your friend’s interactions frequency. There there are more numbers than you know you care to mention so paying attention, tune. But what are your goals? What do you want? You want an email? You want a dollar? What? Don’t I get that? But you can get distracted, and sometimes it’s fine to go on those sort of data dives and be like, I have a crazy question. I’m gonna go find the answer. However, if you’re driving down the road, I don’t need to know the reach of that Twitter post. I need to know how fast I’m going. So miles per hour. How much gas I haven’t tank and That’s the reason when you look at your car dashboard, it’s not telling you how many followers you’re freaking car has. It’s telling you what you need to know when you need to know it, and it’s giving you information. As you know, one common tip is when you look at the next dash border number in your team has handed you, Ah, ask them. Nice. But so what? What is the Delta? What is the difference of this versus the time period prior or this time last year? Because if I give you a number, Tony seven. Are you happy or sad right now? Number used to before compared to what they used to before, the higher the better. All great, but we don’t know that xero depends what you’re asking. So ask what the delta is. Make sure your dashboards have that delta with relevant time frame, so at least know whether or not to be happy or sad about the number. Okay. George weinger. Um, we got another minute and a half or so. Maybe two minutes. If I If I feel generous, What did I not ask you? What would you like to talk about? Around this one hundred dollars advertising spree. I think it’s hard, Tio, when we approach this from a scarcity mindset when we think we don’t have the money, good scribe mindset, even a hundred dollars a month, you’re like, Oh my gosh, it’s so much hope that finds that doesn’t go doesn’t reach that low. But if you are, I mean, there’s some people listening to this being like Hey, that’s a lot. And you know what? The hope is that after six months of this, that hundred dollars is actually turning into more money for you, and you’re sort of hinting at it before. By the way, if something’s working, if you’re turning one dollars into two dollars, you should do more of that. I would take that bet very often. And so one piece, you know, whenever this may come out. But during cue for especially may be a good time to turn on some of that retargeting we talked about and saying, Hey, you know what anybody that has come to our site in the past year? Or maybe he’s even on our donor list. Let’s just remind them with a sort of at least four impression thirty second video, meaning that we’re looking for a frequency of four. Hit him four times. Say, Hey, we’re still here and we’re doing our one time appeal. That is the one time a year where I’m saying it’s okay to ask for the donation because it is more top of mind. You do that overlapping around giving Tuesday you set your monthly budget. We’ve seen those types of budgets return on investment, assuming that you’ve been doing your homework over the year, assuming that you’ve been building in a list of anything that you were going to hear it again and again from guests on your podcast about building that relationship. And that’s a little extra already a little extra boost at the final stretch of the year for you. Okay, George, is this podcast have been around since two thousand ten, so I’ve heard about relationship building a few times. How long? What’s the longevity? Of course, longevity is advantaged. Vanity metric. I could have twelve listeners have been doing this since July two thousand ten. How long is a whole whale been around? We were founded in twenty ten, so we’ve been around a little while, and I don’t think about anybody but the twenty fourteen, so I respect anyone who can hang on for for a while. You know, it’s it takes a lot of energy and persistence. Teo do the hard things over time. I’ve heard rumors to that effect. Yes, I’ve been to thank you very much. I’ve been told he’s George Whiner cofounder, Power Poetry dot or GE and you’re with twenty. Uh, what are you with your? With the nineteen ntcdinosaur twenty nineteen non-profit Technology conference, the non-profit radio coverage thereof. And along with all our nineteen and TC interviews, this one is brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profit to make an impact seethe swag on the desk, which is a water bottle for for listeners who don’t have the the luxury of the video. And you also see it on my chest on my T shirt. Well, it’s on a teacher, not literally. It’s a tattoo. It’s not that he tattooed it. George Whiner. I already I already I already backed you up, so let’s let’s leave it there on this is Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of nineteen ninety si, thank you so much for being with Me and George Whiner. Next week be accessible and go bilingual both from nineteen ninety. See if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com Responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits Data Driven and technology enabled Tony dahna may slash pursuing capital P by witness CPS Guiding YOU beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by Telus Credit card and payment Processing Your Passive Revenue Stream Tony dahna may slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text NPR to four four four nine nine nine Ah, creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer show Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by Scott Stein You with me next week for non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network e-giving Wait, you’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network? Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. 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