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Nonprofit Radio for December 20, 2019: Impeachment, Say What? & #SaveDotOrg
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My Guests:
Gene Takagi: Impeachment, Say What?
What’s your nonprofit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What’re your employees allowed to say, where and when? Gene Takagi has the answers. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group.
Amy Sample Ward: #SaveDotOrg
There’s a possibility that management of the .org domain will be privatized. The #SaveDotOrg movement thinks that’s a bad idea. NTEN is part of the opposition movement and Amy Sample Ward explains why. She’s our technology and social media contributor and CEO of NTEN.
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Transcript for 470_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20191220.mp3
Hello [00:00:41.93] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the love, their 95% under aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn extra tropic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Impeachment. Say what? What’s your non profit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What do your employees allowed to say, where and when? Jean Takagi has the answers. [00:00:43.68] spk_3:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group, [00:00:51.04] spk_2:
then save dot or GE. There’s a possibility [00:00:53.45] spk_3:
that management of the dot org’s domain will be privatized. Save dot org’s movement thinks that’s a bad [00:00:59.84] spk_2:
idea, and 10 is part [00:01:01.88] spk_3:
of the opposition movement. And Amy Sample Ward explains why she’s our technology and social [00:01:06.93] spk_2:
media contributor and CEO of 10 on tony Steak, too. [00:01:14.04] spk_3:
Thank you for 2019 were [00:01:14.24] spk_2:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali [00:01:54.24] spk_3:
Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and I’m hoping that we’re gonna welcome Jean Takagi back. Do we have him? We’re trying. OK, uh, he’s in. Is he in the conference? Okay, we’re trying to call the conference, so I don’t know. Gene probably cannot hear us. So what we’re gonna be talking about is, um, [00:02:02.93] spk_2:
some some stuff on, uh, what’s permissible [00:02:37.85] spk_3:
for 501 See three’s to talk about, um, whether it’s around impeachment or the election election earing things like, Are you allowed to host a candidates forum? Candidates debate. Um, what about promoting issues versus candidates? What do your employees allowed to do? And that’s Ah, that’s what we’ll be covering. We’re gonna [00:02:38.21] spk_2:
do Jeanne Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne de la machine. We got him. Jean Takagi is the managing attorney of Neo, [00:02:44.28] spk_3:
the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non [00:03:02.08] spk_2:
profit lawyer. He’s at G tak. Welcome, Jean Jean. Great. Ah, great to have you. I know you were there, but we were having [00:03:04.94] spk_3:
trouble getting in. But now we’re now we’re in, You’re in and we’re [00:03:12.26] spk_2:
in and s so it’s a very communal Wonderful Are you doing out there? Looking forward to holidays? I’m sure [00:03:15.50] spk_5:
I am. How about you turning [00:03:17.13] spk_2:
very much? Yeah. I love this [00:03:18.50] spk_3:
time. Uh, we have a couple of weeks off from the show, and I have nothing scheduled for a couple of weeks. So, uh, it’s [00:03:25.47] spk_2:
good time, too. I mean, I’ll be working light work light, I guess. And good time. [00:03:30.99] spk_5:
Same way. [00:03:31.64] spk_3:
Yes. Excellent. Good for you. And [00:03:33.71] spk_2:
good time for reflection. [00:03:38.44] spk_3:
I think on the new year, I like that you have any, uh, any goals for Ah, 20 [00:03:42.73] spk_2:
20 that you want to share or anything exciting coming up in 2020. [00:03:53.29] spk_5:
Really excited. My partner, Aaron, Brad, Rick and I are going to be teaching a course at Columbia University starting in January, so we’re really looking forward to that in their non profit a management program. [00:03:59.50] spk_3:
Wonderful is not gonna bring you to New York or you teaching virtually. [00:04:03.29] spk_5:
We’re teaching online, but we may make out a trip itude in New York [00:04:07.89] spk_2:
trip or two. But you gotta let me know. Of course. [00:04:10.12] spk_5:
Absolutely. [00:04:16.83] spk_3:
I mean, unless you want Oh, yeah. I hope you don’t want to stealth in and stealth out. Not not. Talk to me. I certainly wouldn’t do that if I were visiting San Francisco again. [00:04:20.94] spk_2:
Um, okay, so let’s start with the most timely. [00:04:30.74] spk_3:
Um, President Trump was impeached two days ago in the U. S. House of Representatives. Um, [00:04:31.72] spk_2:
what’s, uh what can we talk about? [00:04:33.38] spk_3:
If we’re 501 c three around that [00:04:48.90] spk_5:
Well, it’s a great question and, you know, because they’re different types of 501 see threes and different types of non profit. I should make clear that we’re only talking about public charities here. There’s different rules for different other types of organizations, including private foundations for public charities. There’s quite a lot they can talk about. [00:04:56.93] spk_2:
OK, [00:04:57.64] spk_5:
we should also differentiate between impeachment, which has already happened, and the removal from office, which is still going to be a matter of legislative action, specifically a supermajority vote by the Senate whenever they get that before them. [00:05:11.85] spk_3:
And [00:05:12.57] spk_5:
I know that’s related issues. [00:05:16.20] spk_2:
Okay, uh, because there go ahead. Yeah. So Well, why? Why? Why do we [00:05:21.09] spk_3:
distinguish between those two. This is a big [00:05:24.51] spk_5:
authority happened, [00:05:25.38] spk_2:
Yeah, [00:05:32.43] spk_5:
so because it’s already happened, you know, charity are fairly free to comment on [00:05:33.34] spk_2:
that action. They’re [00:06:33.93] spk_5:
also free to comment about how they feel about governmental leaders in doing their jobs. And, you know, it might be really important to do so in the context that it may really impact the charity’s mission. And, you know, for example, I would think that charity to mission is to end hunger, for example, for for American suffering from poverty. They might have a great deal to say about the administration’s rule to end food stands for like about 700,000 people. You know, the 700,000 people are making, on average 2200 and $50 a year. And if you want to comment on that at a charity, that’s okay the same way you can comment on the impeachment whether you think that that was proper or not. But what may not be okay if you’re gonna be talking about the electability of that person for or in any way talking about the upcoming election so you can talk about impeachment in and of itself on dhe. Whether it was, you think it was right or it was improper. But you can’t start to talk about, um, or start to influence the upcoming election. So that’s a little bit of a fine line. Thio. Walk on [00:06:58.93] spk_3:
okay, and we’ll get to the election and election hearing. What about the coming potential removal from office, The trial in the Senate and, you know, advocating one way or the other for what you think. The Senate, your organization thinks because we’re talking about the organization level, we’ll get. Individual employees will get to that, too. But what your organization thinks about removal from office. [00:07:14.68] spk_5:
So you know, there’s no absolute guidance from the i. R s on the impeachment of the president. Surprise. But, um, there’s It’s generally thought to be attempting to influence the legislative action inaction by the Senate. [00:07:26.24] spk_2:
The mall’s [00:07:51.21] spk_5:
within the tax laws, definition of lobbying and not political campaign intervention. So we know that there’s an absolute bar to, um, you know, endorsing or supporting or opposing candidates for public office. That would be election hearing in that not allowed by any type of 5 23 but public charities are allowed to engage in lobbying so long as it’s considered not substantial, and commenting on a potential legislative action like the removal from office action that will fall before the Senate would be considered lobbying. And to the extent that charity can lobbying and there are some limitations involved, the charity would be free to do so. But again, it has to walk that fine line because we are coming up to an election year on. Dhe has to look like it’s not trying to influence the election itself. So you don’t really want to talk about other candidates for office or on the general overall qualities of Trump as a candidate for another four years. But you want to talk. If you want a charity, you want to talk about the removal from office specifically about what, before the Senate. Why, why would he be removed from from the office? So you’re really took ing taking a look at those two articles of impeachment and commenting on the merits of those articles? [00:09:02.54] spk_3:
Okay, understand? We need to take our first break when we come back very shortly. We’ll, uh, well, we’ll talk more about lobbying and what’s allowed, not allowed there. And, uh, we’re taking a break for, um, for wegner-C.P.As. Of course, in the new year, might you need a C p. A, whose service is excellent, who provides clear directions and timetables and who’s easy to work [00:09:10.88] spk_2:
with. That’s not me talking. [00:09:22.82] spk_3:
That’s from the testimony. Old. That’s not my opinion. That’s, Ah, the opinion of someone who’s worked with not with wegner in the past, a CZ you’ve heard the past few weeks. So if you [00:09:26.02] spk_2:
do talk [00:09:39.50] spk_3:
to partner, you eat each tomb. He’s a good guy. No pressure wegner-C.P.As dot com And now let’s go back to Jean Takagi and Impeachment. Say what? Okay, we’re [00:09:39.89] spk_2:
allowed to do some [00:09:56.68] spk_3:
lobbying, you said, as long as it’s not substantial. Uh, how do we measure substantiality? Substantial ability. Substantiality substantiality. I think it’s I think that’s what This How do we make whatever helps called Republic [00:10:33.26] spk_5:
charities there Two ways to measure it? Sort of. The default way is just what the law cost backs and circumstances, and that leaves it up to the Iraq to determine whether you’ve engaged in too much lobbying or not. And if you want to challenge it, ultimately, a court and nobody really wants to go down that route. So, you know, professionals typically uses guidelines. You know, there was this old case that said, you know, 5% of your resource is that should be okay that, you know, anything under 5% should be okay. You want to think about your expenditures, your volunteer time? You know the amount of publication space you’re giving all of those things. If it’s about 5% or less of your resource is you’re probably not too worried about exceeding the lobbying threshold under that backs in circumstances. [00:10:42.37] spk_3:
Okay, Yeah. 55 percents pretty low. [00:10:46.35] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s pretty low. Um, but, you know, [00:10:48.39] spk_3:
for some [00:11:26.97] spk_5:
organization, that’s all they want to do. But you know, the better choice for the vast majority of charities. And I would say, almost the no brain and choice for charities that are not churches who are ineligible to do this but share other charities that are eligible to make the 5018 lobbying election. I’m. And that that is just a basically 1/2 page born where you put name, address and check a box on it. If you make that election of the charity which could do it any time at all. Um, you get thio, measure your lobbying strictly by your lobbying expenditures, and the limits are just so much more generous. [00:11:27.98] spk_3:
Okay, [00:11:28.59] spk_5:
so it’s 20% of your 1st $500,000 of what they call exempt purpose expenditures or mission related expended [00:11:36.12] spk_3:
choker. [00:11:36.75] spk_5:
20% of that [00:11:40.62] spk_3:
100 $100,000 right there and it’s it’s deemed non substantial. [00:11:46.76] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah, And there’s a separate limit for grassroots lobbying, which is lobbying a different type of lobbying, where you’re not going straight to a legislative body or an employee or member of the legislative body. But you’re going to the public and you’re asking them to contact a member of the legislative body and you have a called action included in that. So if it’s grassroots lobbying, it’s 25% of that total lobbing limit. [00:12:11.99] spk_3:
But [00:12:51.64] spk_5:
expenditure limits under Bible one h are much, much more generous than that 5% kind of rule of thumb that we look at the other time again. Um, a big, big tip for any public charity that wants to, um, discuss the removal from from office, um, stay positions on that before it gets to the Senate or wallets in the Senate, the 501 each election could made and be made any time. And it will be effective for the year. And would you make the election? If you decide you don’t want to, you know, continue electing it. Which might be the case for super big charities. Um, where the 5% could actually be, You know, a lot of money you could, you know, revoke your election that anytime after as well by just filing the same form and checking a different box. So a no brainer election for most public charity. [00:13:00.35] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. So and we’ve talked [00:13:15.52] spk_3:
about this before. I was probably the April 2016 which was the last election year. Um, you and I talked about advocacy generally, and I think the 501 h came up then. So you’re still a five. A one c three. You’re just making this 501 h election for the year. [00:13:23.94] spk_5:
Right? So [00:13:24.75] spk_2:
what do you [00:13:25.08] spk_5:
make it? [00:13:25.49] spk_2:
Your sort [00:13:26.16] spk_5:
of permanently on that until you revoke it. But all it does that 501 age super easy election to make this thing. We don’t want to tell the IRS everything about our lobby. We just want the IRS to measure our lobbying on what was spent. We don’t want to try to estimate volunteer time How much of our office space is dedicated to lobby? We just want to tell them exactly what we spent and recorded on our financial for a lot. So, so much easier to report, so much easier to track. The limits are much easier. And if you violate it, if you go over the lobbying limits without the election, that facts and circumstances test. [00:14:00.03] spk_3:
Yeah, [00:14:00.37] spk_5:
you violated in any one year, you can lose your Bible. One secret that [00:14:04.58] spk_3:
Okay, [00:14:04.93] spk_5:
But if you make the election, you have to violate it over a four year period, not just one year, but over a four year rolling calendar. And then you have violated by more than 50%. [00:14:16.61] spk_3:
Wow. Okay, so that [00:14:18.03] spk_5:
that’s just so much more advantageous. [00:14:39.09] spk_3:
It is sort of a no brainer. And for those much generous, much more generous limits. Okay, cool. All right. 501 inch. Thank you, G. Um, what about our our individual employees? What are in terms of what resource is they’re using when they speak, when they when they speak publicly? What? What are the rules around employees? [00:15:56.92] spk_5:
Well, you know, first thing to recognize is is individual tax First Amendment rights, right? So they have the freedom of speech. They have the freedom to say whatever they want. Charities shouldn’t control what you know their employees or their directors or officers are saying in their individual capacity. But they should control what they’re saying as representative speaking on behalf of the charities. So there’s that distinction to make so again don’t control what you know your your employees and your staff members and volunteers are saying about impeachment or removal or any other wegner slate of action or political endorsement. But make sure that they don’t use any charity. Resource is in doing so, and that’s really important. Don’t let them use their work email address. Don’t let them use the work. Tell a boat. Don’t let them perform those activities. If they’re, they’re, you know, working on campaigns in the office and the charity’s office. And if they should put their name on with the name of their employer, which is a charity on like an endorsement list of a political candidate. Make sure that there’s some sort of Astra’s back says that the name of their employer is only listed there for identification purposes and doesn’t represent an endorsement by the charity itself. [00:16:22.14] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Um and so what? What employees do on there personal time and their personal Facebook Twitter email all all, uh, really of no concern to the to the charity. [00:16:28.54] spk_5:
Yeah, but social media is actually a good point about hitting that gray area, tony, because you probably follow your twitter, tony. So you [00:16:37.06] spk_2:
probably follow you [00:16:42.79] spk_5:
individuals who are on Twitter who have both their name and their charity affiliation like listed? [00:16:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah, in [00:16:55.29] spk_5:
their account, it might be in their Twitter handle, or it might be in their short bio underneath. You know, the Twitter handle. And that’s where it becomes kind of tricky. Who does that Twitter handle belong to? Does it belong to the individual or doesn’t belong to the charity And could the chair to get in trouble if there is a political endorsement or a statement of opposition to a candidate for public office? [00:17:12.21] spk_2:
Yeah, I always [00:18:04.09] spk_3:
have presumed. Although I’ve never followed upto see whether my presumption is, uh is accurate that someone who has the charity name in there either in their handle or, as you say in their short Twitter bio, has another account that doesn’t talk about the charity, Asai said. I never have investigated to see whether they do or not. I’m following their charity account. Um, so maybe maybe people don’t. But that would seem like the better the better practice. And especially if, I mean, shouldn’t that be in a, ah charities social media policy that if you’re going to use the charity name, you know, there are prohibitions around what you can do with that and then and we encourage you? Or we insist that you have, ah, private well non A non charity Twitter account for all other all other non work purposes. [00:18:56.44] spk_5:
Yeah, conservatively. You know, I kind of like that type of policy, tony. But for practical purposes, it’s kind of like our president or or Hillary Clinton when she was running, separating their kind of personal accounts from their work account. Um, there they are co mingled all the time, and not just by charities and their employees, but by four profit in their employees, so disclaimers can work outright prohibitions and requirements that they have a separate, Um, a Twitter account or face social media account may be helpful at times, but often times you know they’re just going to combine the two. So, um, just be careful about that one thing about, you know, sort of the election hearing prohibition that you can’t endorse or oppose the political candidate. One thing did note is that the Republican Party platform and President Trump himself said they really don’t like that Prohibition often referred to as the Johnson [00:19:14.09] spk_3:
and Johnson [00:19:14.70] spk_5:
talked about that before. [00:19:16.87] spk_2:
Well, they [00:19:17.05] spk_5:
want to get rid of it, although most the vast majority of charities. And I think the mast majority of churches. I don’t want to get rid of it because I could turn all charities into these election vehicles for where donors say, You know, I’m not gonna give you this donation unless he said a message to all of your members and donors of, you know, in support of a political candidate, and that would suddenly be okay. [00:20:05.12] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s we’ve been talking. We talked about that. Probably when it around the time it first became a proposal, or at least well, I guess it’s been in the platform. The party platform, you’re saying. But there was some There was more talk about it, I don’t know. A year and 1/2 for two years ago, and we, you and I discussed the Johnson Amendment. Um, it hasn’t happened. Maybe because of the nonprofit community opposition. What what’s your scent? You were you were monitoring that very closely. What’s your sense of where it stands? [00:20:57.67] spk_5:
Yeah, you know, I think the non profit community’s opposition was very, very helpful in that there were there were others who were opposing it. A CZ well, with a matter of policy. And I think as people got more educated about it, it became less and less popular. Um, it was a way for dark money. T sort of enter into the political system where we didn’t really know where the sources were in. People were getting tax deductions on top of it. So it’s something that be really bad. But the reason why I brought it up here is because if an organization wasn’t quite sure, it was speaking out on impeachment or removal from office, and you know we may be crossing that line. Well, conservatively, I would say, Yeah, the closer we are to election time, you’ve got to be careful even within the bounds that I said that it might be a lobbying activity and not, uh uh, banned political campaign activity. But closer do you are to election that could turn into what looks like a political campaign activity. If you’ve never spoken about the impeachment itself, and you just never it looks like your charity was never interested in the issue until just like, you know, a few months before the election with the [00:21:25.32] spk_2:
happened that [00:21:48.92] spk_5:
looks like this casted election hearing communication. But overall, I’m not sure that the I. R s and the current executive branch is really that interested in enforcing the political prohibition laws because, you know, doesn’t resonate with what their messaging has been. Maybe a little bit risk. And it would have been for four years ago. [00:21:49.85] spk_2:
Okay? Yeah. You still [00:21:56.54] spk_3:
want to err on the side of caution, right? I mean, I, you know, because they there could be some exception to their enforcement activity or priorities or something. So but [00:22:01.99] spk_2:
you’re you’re the [00:22:11.33] spk_3:
conservative conservative guy, at least in terms of legal legal advice of the legal advice side. You know, um, least that’s Yeah, [00:22:13.26] spk_2:
that’s always been your You. You’ve always been cautious [00:22:15.77] spk_3:
about advice you give. Yeah, [00:22:41.47] spk_5:
Yeah, I think when we have a lot of smaller to medium sized organizations amongst the client, there’s just less risk capital, you know, private foundation with, you know, $10 billion might have a little bit Arjun for taking a risk and maybe fighting it in court if they felt like the I r s sir. Uh, neutrino general not correct in their interpretation of whether a lot was violated. But for most small and medium sized charities, they can’t afford to have that battle. [00:22:49.70] spk_2:
We’ve been [00:23:15.61] spk_3:
talking mostly about candidates. You mentioned a little bit about issues, but let’s make issues issues clearer versus candidates. Are you saying that if you’re non profit now, as an organization has has been following an issue for a long time and not just doesn’t just start commenting, you know, 60 or 90 days before an election, then eyes that part of the facts and circumstances test for people who don’t for organizations that don’t take the 501 h election. Is that Is that one factor? [00:24:01.94] spk_5:
Well, just commenting on issues themselves, it was If it isn’t stating a position on a piece of legislation, you’re free to do that all you want. So if you’re educating the public about a particular issue, whether it be climate change or, um, you know, immigration, um, you couldn’t talk about broader issues and educate the public. You know, if you’re giving material facts and you’re doing it in a non part of objective and fair manner, that that should be sort of a fundamental thing of what you do if it’s gonna help further your mission. But when you start to comment on a particular piece of law or legislation and say, you know, this is either a good piece of legislation or this is a bad piece of legislation [00:24:11.27] spk_3:
or this [00:24:11.70] spk_5:
new legislation that we need now you’re entering into the realm of lobbying and subject to those limits that we just discussed the 501 h limits or the the facts and circumstances with [00:24:26.22] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um, [00:24:28.72] spk_2:
you still there, June? I am okay. Yeah. You [00:24:41.39] spk_3:
Ah ah, word or a syllable at a time seems to pop out, and then it got quiet. So I I, uh I got concerned. Okay, You’re still with us. All right. Good. Um, thank you for flushing that out. [00:24:43.22] spk_2:
What else? What else [00:24:44.49] spk_3:
do you think listeners need to know? [00:26:06.27] spk_5:
Well, there are all sorts of other things that public charities do around election time. Um, you know, they can’t endorsers support any candidates for public office, But the concert, we engage in voter registration and get out the boat drives. You see that all over the place, and you’re gonna continue to see it over the next year. So a CZ longer again there, you know, conducted in the neutral, non partisan matter without reference to, you know, any of the specific candidates or political parties, you can host a candidate debate or forum. I think many of you have seen those, uh, you know, hosted by a public charity. And again, the purpose of the, uh, debates reform should be for educating the public. So you have to be very careful about not doing it in a partisan man is not with leading questions or a selective choice of topics that that might influence the public one way or the other. Be careful about your selection of moderators and how you comment on the candidate’s response. Yes, I want to be careful about the time allotted to each candidate. You know, it would be very wrong if you allowed just one candidate. If there is, it just came down to the presidential race, for example, and you let one party’s candidates speak for 90% of the time and the other candidates to be 10% of the time. It will be pretty clear where that charity is leaning. [00:26:28.95] spk_3:
Okay, So to borrow the old Fox News motto, you need to be fair and balanced, but not fair and balanced like they were where a court ruled that they were de facto, not fair and balanced. Need to be really fair and balance. I think [00:26:29.39] spk_5:
that’s that’s right, [00:26:30.53] spk_2:
and and [00:26:35.50] spk_5:
obviously a charity will have its own mission statement to think about. But they’ve got a sort of put it in their back pocket a little bit when they’re designing those type of debates. Reformed Also, voter guides, Kennedy questionnaires, um, also permissible and even candidate appearances. If you’re providing equal opportunity for all candidates, you see that on television is Wow. [00:27:05.64] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um well, we have just about a minute or so left. Uh, what? Ah, what do you want to leave us with for the for the year on this topic? [00:27:17.93] spk_5:
Well, I think I’ll just say I think people should be really active in their advocacy. In furtherance of their mission. There are a few resources that are out there. Board sources stand for your mission. Campaign has some excellent resource is on the Alliance for Justice gives you more than mechanics of what I’ve been talking about. What type of advocacy, What type of lobbying, what type of political activities public charities could do on. There’s some nuances to all of this. There’s another layer of election law that may be on top of all of the tax law we’ve been talking about. So those resources are good places to go and go ahead and advocate as much as you can for your mission. [00:27:58.17] spk_3:
Junior. So modest. Another very good source is non profit law blawg, which is at non profit law blogged dot com. And Jeanne, I wish you lots of [00:28:01.34] spk_2:
let’s of enjoyment, lots of good time. [00:28:03.07] spk_4:
Uh, I [00:28:03.64] spk_3:
hope you enjoy your holidays and the New Year [00:28:07.14] spk_5:
Happy holidays to you and your family. Tony, [00:28:28.89] spk_3:
thank you very much, Gene. It’s a pleasure. And thank you so much for what you’ve done for 2019 and what we’re looking forward to. In 2020 he’s Jean Takagi, my pleasure, managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group. He edits that non profit log log, and he’s at G Tak. Now it’s time for a [00:28:33.08] spk_2:
break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits The same nonprofits we’ve been talking about, the ones, the ones we all know. Non profit radio, for God’s sake. What does that mean For you? [00:29:00.64] spk_3:
That means fund accounting. No more spreadsheets to manage your restricted grant funds. Also fraud prevention and exceptional customer service. You’ve heard all that in the testimonials. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now let’s transition, [00:29:03.15] spk_4:
uh, [00:29:03.88] spk_2:
subtly, but ah, but smoothly, uh, suddenly and [00:29:27.75] spk_3:
smoothly to tony stick to and my thanks for you. Our listener. Listeners in 2019 were the number one podcast for nonprofits. Most listened to, uh, most longest running, most consistently produced, most sponsored just generically. Overall, you can say Number one podcast for nonprofits. And [00:29:35.00] spk_2:
that’s because we have so many listeners. So I am grateful [00:29:49.24] spk_3:
to you. Thank you for your listening If you have shared the show. I appreciate that as well. Thank you for that. That’s how we grow the audiences by listeners sharing what? What [00:29:49.94] spk_2:
they believe is good content. So thank you with you. Listen, live or archive. [00:29:54.54] spk_4:
It [00:30:13.47] spk_3:
makes no difference. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to see my thank you wishes from the Chesapeake Bay, then you can view the video at my thank you video. Thank you so much. We [00:30:13.61] spk_2:
have a B sample ward. We do not have [00:30:55.80] spk_3:
any sample word. She hasn’t called into the conference line yet. Okay, well, uh, when when we do connect with her, um, we will be talking about save dot org’s. The issue is that the dot org’s domain that we all use I don’t use you all use. I actually don’t use I’m dot com for my for my business. Um, but you all use it. You know how important it is. There’s the potential that it will be managed by, ah company ethos, which is the water, you know, you may know ethos water. Um, that’s the company that may gain control of the dot or domain. And Amy and I will talk about how these things are all managed. Um, we [00:31:03.55] spk_2:
have Amy as Amy called in yet [00:31:40.84] spk_3:
means not. Okay, So what we’re gonna do is, um Let’s do the live listener. Love will do that. And if you will give me a nen dull Jin ce for a few seconds, I’m gonna get my phone and share with Emily. Amy sample Ward’s contact info so that Emily can text and call Amy. So hang on while I get my phone. Okay? The dreaded dead airtime. [00:31:43.74] spk_2:
But I told [00:32:11.54] spk_3:
you was coming. So, uh, you had you had time to prepare, so it should not have been dreadful. Uh, for you, So I’m getting her in my pulling up in my contacts. Okay, Emily, Here you go. There’s the ways to contact Amy. Sample word. Please Do use my phone actually, or whatever you want to use. All right, so we’ll be talking about dot Organ. There’s a movement. Does The hashtag is saved dot or Ge? Well, I’m only works [00:32:29.19] spk_2:
on that. Let’s do the lifeless in love and it is extensive. My gosh, Um let’s go abroad first. Tokyo, Japan! Oh, konnichi wa Ramat Gone Israel! Welcome, Live! Listen, love to Israel as well as Japan. Gwangju, South Korea. You’ve [00:32:35.28] spk_3:
been with us before. Gwangju. Thank you so much. Seoul, South Korea as well. Um [00:32:41.53] spk_2:
Brazil. Mina Mina Gerais meant Minas Gerais. Jakarta, Indonesia, [00:32:42.64] spk_3:
Capital of Indonesia, of [00:33:07.84] spk_2:
course. Live! Listen, love Thio. Each of our foreign listeners and they continue coaching men city in Vietnam. And, uh, well, we see Vietnam from time to time. Thank you. Live low about to Vietnam and touch skin sherry in Uzbekistan. Yeah, it was Pakistan. Not too often, but we’ve heard from you before. So very glad. Very glad you’re with us. Who’s Becca? Stan? Vietnam, Indonesia, Brazil, South Korea, Israel, Japan. [00:33:20.68] spk_3:
Multiple. South Korea, of course. Want credit that live? Listen, love. After each of those, uh, countries and coming abroad, we’ve got, um Brooklyn, New [00:33:24.94] spk_2:
York, Cheyney State Park, Kansas. That’s interesting. Cheyney State Park. Are you actually in the state park? You can, uh that’s interesting. You listening from the State Park. Wonderful. I’m a very [00:33:43.26] spk_3:
big advocate of state parks. Public lands. You got it. You gotta have park. That used to be the motto in New York City, but it applies throughout the country. Doesn’t matter. Of course you gotta have park green space. Um, [00:33:49.29] spk_2:
Ashburn, Virginia. San Francisco, California, Tampa, Florida, Fairfield, Connecticut. Live love everywhere. We’ve got her. Okay, well, on the heels of the live love Let’s see now we got to make her wait, [00:33:55.85] spk_3:
because there’s no way that I’m doing a lot of love without the podcast pleasantry. So now she’s gonna [00:33:59.60] spk_2:
have to wait. She called in late. It’s our own fault. Um, the podcast pleasantries are over 13,000 listeners. [00:34:06.65] spk_3:
You heard me say it on Tony’s Take Two. But [00:34:09.17] spk_2:
I’m grateful. Thank you so [00:34:10.49] spk_3:
much for being a part of our listener audience. The podcast listeners. Thank you. [00:34:23.20] spk_2:
Any sample Ward. She’s our social media and technology contributor and the CEO of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change Anytime, everywhere [00:34:26.74] spk_3:
about online multi channel engagement. She’s [00:34:32.63] spk_2:
that amy sample ward dot org’s oh dot org’s. This is considered a potential personal personal threat dot ord and she’s at a me RS ward. Any sample ward. Welcome back. [00:34:53.87] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m not sure what happened. I’ve been trying since, like, 10 20 to get in. And I assume I always assume user error trying to re dial, and it never let me in. [00:34:57.38] spk_2:
Okay, Well, we had the same trouble [00:34:58.91] spk_3:
here, actually trying to connect with Jean Takagi. We saw that he was in the conference system, but we couldn’t get in ourselves to connect with him so on. And so it’s probably not user error times, too. There’s something flunky. [00:35:12.16] spk_2:
And the reason we’re using [00:35:21.69] spk_3:
this conference system and rather than having you call the studio directly, which we almost always do, is because there’s some problem with the with [00:35:21.81] spk_2:
the phone line. Four lines? Yeah. [00:35:23.94] spk_3:
So we’re using the conference line. Of course, we need the phone line to get the company line, But [00:35:33.87] spk_2:
anyway, well, you’re a technology technologist, our technology contributor. It’s wonderful until it fails. I mean, I’m almost I’m almost sorry for saying this. I do apologizing. That was gratified that you have trouble with technology too. [00:35:43.21] spk_0:
Oh, don’t worry. People are always so happy when an 10 [00:35:46.72] spk_2:
says that something [00:35:48.02] spk_0:
that happened because it’s so validating. [00:35:51.43] spk_2:
You [00:36:22.00] spk_0:
know, it happens to all of us, because at the end of the day, all these tools, they’re just tools, right? They’re not perfect systems. Humans built all of them and humans that themselves. They’re not perfect. So things are bound to happen. But I think it’s really interesting the way folks respond when something, you know, technological is happening. That is not what they want. You know, the folks who get really frustrated and upset, and it’s like, Well, sure, But you know, how far is that getting [00:36:23.35] spk_2:
you [00:36:24.02] spk_0:
or the folks who are like, Oh, I’m gonna you know, like MacGyver my way around, just like you all did. So good. Good for you for having a productive response, [00:36:34.73] spk_2:
Thank you very much. And for you as well. [00:36:36.44] spk_3:
You kept trying. And, uh, I could I could imagine that your frustration was growing as 10 30 Pacific time came and went, which is the time I I was expecting your call. I can imagine your heart rate was rising blood pressure as well. But you [00:36:51.11] spk_2:
mean I mean, [00:36:51.78] spk_0:
what could you know? I usually like to dial in early and listen. [00:36:54.52] spk_3:
Yes. [00:36:55.08] spk_0:
And so I tried. But [00:36:57.23] spk_2:
you know, to know about it [00:37:00.06] spk_0:
anyway, here I am. [00:37:04.26] spk_2:
Indeed, let’s talk about save dot or ge I While we were waiting [00:37:06.00] spk_3:
for you, I was introducing the topic. I explained the listeners that there’s the potential that the dot org’s domain could be managed by a private company [00:37:20.46] spk_2:
ethos My saying that right? Or they are ethos right ethos. Okay, which is the water that they’re also there? I think [00:37:25.44] spk_3:
they’re best known for water. At least that’s the way I know them. Their social. [00:37:26.07] spk_2:
No, they’re [00:37:26.36] spk_0:
brand new, so I don’t think they’re best known for anything. [00:37:29.42] spk_3:
Oh, listen to the oh, we’re [00:37:37.08] spk_2:
already getting. They’re already getting some attitude about this subject. All right there, Brandon. E. Hear it? I heard the tone. I know you. I heard that tone. All right, so this is not the ethos water company, [00:37:42.12] spk_0:
brand new [00:37:42.83] spk_2:
private [00:37:43.21] spk_0:
equity firm. [00:37:43.81] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, brand new [00:37:45.14] spk_3:
private equity firm. Okay. I didn’t know it was brand new. I just kept seeing equity from All right. So [00:37:49.39] spk_2:
let’s introduce, I think to get our way into this, we need to understand how [00:37:54.06] spk_3:
this domain the dot org’s domain is managed. I mean, and I know you’ll be right. I know you’ll be judicious about acronyms because you don’t want to end up in jargon jail S o, I [00:38:05.01] spk_2:
think. But I think it helps to understand how this [00:38:07.05] spk_3:
thing this dot org’s is managed. [00:38:13.47] spk_0:
Right. Okay, so I’m going to try and explain in some somewhat basic terms. [00:38:18.47] spk_2:
Okay, But then [00:38:22.62] spk_0:
I will rely on you to interject questions or fast forward or pause, you know, as I go. [00:38:26.84] spk_3:
Okay. [00:39:42.59] spk_0:
Okay. So the internet, everyone listening has used it. I’s probably using it to listen even And we know that website, You know, we don’t just write non profit radio. We write non profit radio dot whatever, and the part of the website that comes at the dot whatever follows is called a top level domain. So there cannot. We can’t just go make one up. Those top level domains are managed, and there’s only so many of them. And I can they use the acronym I can as their name, which stands for Internet Corporation for assigned names and numbers. There you can kind of think about them is like the body that’s mento. Organize the Internet, So they’re the ones that say OK, you know, we’re allowed to use dot com and dot or GE and dot I owe and dot. Whatever else, they’re kind of the keepers of the order. So they are involved in olive ist as those keepers of the order. Okay, The next group we need to talk about is the Internet society that is a nonprofit organization, and their mission is essentially to promote a globally connected and trustworthy Internet. [00:39:48.31] spk_3:
Okay, listeners may see the acronym I s O. C, right. Let’s [00:39:54.36] spk_2:
have the night knock Internet society yet. [00:40:31.46] spk_0:
So, almost 20 years ago there, when I can waas working to continue their their work and managing those top level domains, uh, they bid tohave the contract for the dot org’s domain. And there was a lot of conversation about the value of a non profit managing the top level domain that’s essentially four non profit right instead of a four profit domain registrar. [00:40:36.01] spk_2:
So I can I can is itself a non profit. Yes, okay. [00:42:38.49] spk_0:
And Internet society is non profit, and they they won the dot or contract, and in the process of that, created another non profit called public interest registry PR, which would be the organization that owned the contract and operationally managed it. But P I. R. Was connected to Internet society, so Internet Society was choosing the board for P i. R. And revenue kickbacks went to Internet society, that kind of thing. So there very closely related as organizations. You No one is like the owner of the other. And for the last, like 18 years or so, PR has managed the dot or domain, and their work has included managing that. Making sure that there’s, um, resource is for non profit. They have they have, you know, everything from sponsoring events to funding training programs, Thio investing in research about, you know, the way non prophecies, the Internet. They’ve done lots of things to kind of re invest the money they make into the use of the Internet by non profit, and everyone kind of thought things were fine. Who write things are moving along just fine, and last month’s just over a month ago from today. All of a sudden, there was an announcement from Andrewsullivan, the executive director of the Internet Society, that they we’re going to sell P. I r to a private equity firm and that it was essentially great news because Internet society would get so much money from the sale that they would create an endowment for themselves. That was kind of position is the only the good news about this was because it would just be so much money for them. [00:42:44.95] spk_2:
Okay, that was that. That was obviously early day. [00:42:48.45] spk_3:
That was early day, because I in my research, I didn’t find I didn’t even find that anymore. So that that [00:42:54.27] spk_2:
must have been that their first position. I’ll tell you what. We got to take our [00:42:56.90] spk_3:
break, Theo. Only one we need to take. And then you and I can continue to invest the show. Okay. Thank you. Um, [00:43:04.35] spk_2:
have you ever wondered why some nonprofits [00:43:13.42] spk_3:
are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do just that. They are themselves former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. [00:43:29.45] spk_2:
It’s all about the relationships almost in life. What isn’t There are turn hyphen [00:43:41.49] spk_3:
to dot ceo, all right. And we have but loads more time for Amy Sample Ward and save dot org’s. Okay, So the initial justification for this well, it’s not really much of a initial rationale. It’s not even it didn’t even didn’t even bother with justification. Just initial rationale was this will be good for I sock will make a lot of money by selling P I R. [00:43:53.80] spk_0:
Yep. [00:43:54.31] spk_3:
Okay, [00:43:59.51] spk_0:
which of course, uh, raise a lot of questions. [00:44:02.12] spk_2:
A lot of black people. [00:44:32.91] spk_0:
And now the second piece that we need to talk about happened months before this announcement. So back in the early spring, the contract details for the dot or contract were up for renegotiation with I can and a few things happened in that renegotiation that already have the community kind of in critical response. Those things included some changes to what had, for a long time been part of the contract. One of those was taking away the price cats, so prices could be set at whatever was desired. [00:44:45.21] spk_2:
The price for [00:44:47.40] spk_3:
a dot org’s domain is very low, right? [00:44:50.79] spk_0:
It’s about $10 [00:44:52.71] spk_3:
$10 for the year. Okay, [00:44:54.88] spk_2:
Okay, you’re more acquainted [00:44:56.72] spk_3:
with this and I am because I don’t use dot org’s I love Dot or GQ. You know, I make my living at dot org’s, but I don’t I don’t use it personally, All right? So, yeah, it’s $10 a year. Okay, so they’re So the initial conversation about a contract renewal was take away those takeaway a price cap, [00:45:23.25] spk_0:
take away the price cap, and then some other pieces that essentially made folks feel that it could be organizations with these domains. There’s some vulnerabilities around censorship and that kind of thing. [00:45:30.91] spk_2:
Okay, So a [00:45:31.79] spk_0:
number of organizations [00:45:33.22] spk_2:
and [00:46:04.28] spk_0:
people had responded to those changes back in the summer and spring saying, you know, Hey, wait a second. This is not right. This does not feel right. This is, you know, longstanding components of the contract. Why’re these Chicken Jane? And despite overwhelming over 3000 responses saying don’t do this, I can. And public interest registry went ahead and the contract gotta prove that way. [00:46:05.26] spk_3:
Ok, wasn’t I? Sock, actually, isn’t I Sock? [00:46:09.57] spk_0:
I can [00:46:10.46] spk_2:
I can. Okay, but I stock [00:46:12.67] spk_3:
owns public interest registry, right? [00:46:15.88] spk_0:
Sure. But public interest registry is kind of the manager there. The owner of the contract. [00:46:21.62] spk_3:
Ok, ok, and they’re the ones who managed the managed. OK, all right, So now [00:46:43.06] spk_0:
and what is kind of an added so we can think about it as there’s all of these changes happening? And then, isn’t it so convenient that now a private equity firm is willing to pay over a $1,000,000,000 for this contract that no longer includes price caps and includes some vulnerabilities around? [00:46:50.72] spk_2:
Wait. Oh, I hold on. I didn’t see that. The price tag is over a $1,000,000,000. [00:46:57.22] spk_0:
$1.12 billion. [00:47:11.85] spk_2:
Wow. Okay, I did not see that. I was I was wondering, but I hope she’s okay. So All right, so the question All right, So let’s let’s fast forward now. You aren’t [00:47:20.74] spk_0:
even following who don’t. Maybe you don’t even work in a non profit that has a doubt or domain. You can already see from, like a, you know, business magazine perspective. What? What seems questionable about the situation? [00:47:29.30] spk_2:
How the hell are they? How the hell is going to make all that money back, right? Yes. On the backs of [00:47:34.24] spk_3:
America’s 1.3 million charities. [00:47:37.88] spk_0:
Well, and keep in mind, this is for the entire globe. this is non profit over the entire [00:47:43.35] spk_2:
world way. Talk [00:47:49.38] spk_0:
about wanting to have a human rights lens on reviewing this transaction. When we talk about vulnerabilities for censorship, we’re thinking about non profit, not necessarily in the U. S. We’re thinking about non profit in parts of the world where they rely on a dot or domain so that people here in the U. S. No. Oh, this must be a new organization doing good work. I’m willing to donate to them. I’m willing to support them. They’re likely doing work in a geographic region where their government is not in support of what they’re doing right. And having vulnerabilities for censorship means their government could just turn their website off. Right? [00:48:28.27] spk_2:
So, [00:49:21.43] spk_0:
uh, there’s a lot happening that is sure maybe not happening in this moment, but very, very likely could happen, right, because these changes have happened. So, um, what has also been challenging is that in a few of these public forums and 10 held a community call and invited the folks from Internet society and PR to come. And John Nevins said that he asked for those changes to be added into the contract, which kind of further creates this web of questioning about who knew this was happening. And how long was this plan, right? If those changes to the contract are what made the contract worth apparently over a $1,000,000,000 how did all of this happen? [00:49:23.63] spk_2:
Did you have someone from ethos on the call? [00:49:30.23] spk_0:
We did Eric Brooks, That Theo. [00:49:50.31] spk_3:
Okay. And he has, uh, yes, I wanna be. I wanna be balanced here because he has a block post that from December 16th where he answers some of the answers, all the questions that a Mozilla Block post had had asked [00:49:57.17] spk_0:
Answer some of those questions and I would say responded to them. Did not answer them, [00:50:29.66] spk_3:
You would say responded. Okay, okay. So, like, for instance, on the pricing, um, what assurances gonna dot Or community have that ethos and p i r will keep their promises regarding price increases. We’re committed to limit increases for dot, or domain registrations prices to no more than 10% per year on average, based on domain prices today, that would equate to an additional $1 per year. We plan to embed these pricing commitments in our public benefit LLC or other corporate governing documents that that doesn’t care. Is that not satisfactory? [00:50:43.24] spk_0:
No, I mean on average. So that could say, over the next 20 years, the average has been 10%. We all understand that Average doesn’t mean every year has to be. [00:51:05.50] spk_3:
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now Eric says that they are Ah, they’re going to create a P I R. Stewardship Council. Right now, The Stewardship Council, um, concept behind our proposal is to put in place a dot org’s community advisory board body. The council will seek input from the daughter of community and convey the needs of the data or community to P i R. Management provide advice to p ay, our leadership on key matters impacting the daughter of community. And the leading voice in recommending new service is capabilities to be offered through the dot org’s platform to serve the mission driven community. [00:51:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah, [00:51:31.06] spk_3:
okay. What? You know, [00:52:33.02] spk_0:
they had a, uh webinar. I guess you’d call it yesterday. So did and spoke at more length. It wasn’t a discussion or, you know, they didn’t take live questions or anything like that. But they spoke at more length about the same topics. And what we can understand about this advisory council is that the P. I. R. Board and the folks already working there working within this deal will choose who the council is. The council has no actual authority. Oh, our mechanisms for accountability. And, you know, it’s like a group that they have chosen that they say is able to give be back. So I don’t see how it addresses any of the kind of concerns that rest of the dot or community has for riel accountability. [00:52:35.39] spk_3:
Okay, so your concern is that it would just be like an advisory board on sort of perfunctory and not not without really thought without authority. The authority would [00:52:48.12] spk_2:
still be may not [00:52:52.65] spk_0:
be folks who would have divers or critical views because their hand selected. [00:52:57.75] spk_2:
Okay, well, hey, did say [00:53:09.60] spk_3:
again Eric Brooks in his block post. He said that there would be standards for qualifications for membership on the stewardship Council. So [00:53:10.65] spk_0:
sure, [00:53:11.40] spk_2:
they would think [00:53:12.31] spk_0:
that’s a pretty like white, dominant view of saying I’m gonna choose my friends. [00:53:31.50] spk_3:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because, Well, yeah, The question is whether the dot or community would have input into, I guess I guess we’re talking about. Enter the terms of this disagreement between ethos and I saw. Right, [00:53:32.83] spk_0:
Right. So we’re moving from a world where the dot or contract is managed by a non profit organization who would also managed by a non profit er organization and into a world where the dot or contract is held by a for profit entity owned by a private equity firm. [00:53:50.69] spk_2:
Do it right. Just the principles [00:54:02.33] spk_0:
of those organizational set up completely changes the context in which the dot or contract is maintained. Right? We’re going from a non profit entity reinvesting any additional funds back into the sector to two organizations that are really meant to maximize profit. Right? [00:54:18.87] spk_3:
I understand. I do understand. And this falls into the category of I I’ve noticed this more in the past 10 years or so. We [00:54:23.50] spk_2:
have to I feel like I have to fight Maur for what I did to keep status quo. [00:54:28.65] spk_4:
Um [00:54:29.74] spk_0:
Yep. [00:54:32.60] spk_3:
So this is something that all [00:54:32.93] spk_0:
right, let alone progress. [00:54:37.08] spk_2:
But yeah, I’m just I’m just Internet [00:54:54.29] spk_0:
society. Didn’t feel that it was sustainable to manage PR PR didn’t feel like it was manageable. Thio sustain the dot or contract there’s a different solution to that than completely, you know, throwing it out. [00:54:56.36] spk_3:
I understand. All right. I’m [00:54:57.40] spk_2:
gonna let us go [00:54:57.93] spk_3:
a little longer. We are. Typically, we would end right about now, but let’s let’s go another few minutes. Not not not 10 minutes. Because listeners are pretty much counting on on our but, you know, really go another 45 minutes. [00:55:09.79] spk_2:
Do we know how much [00:55:12.26] spk_3:
revenue P I R earns? I don’t know. Over the [00:55:16.01] spk_2:
past years, Annual 19 nineties [00:55:18.24] spk_0:
and that kind of thing. [00:55:20.44] spk_2:
Okay, what do you know? [00:55:21.19] spk_0:
It’s like 90 year. [00:55:24.12] spk_3:
90 year? Okay. And you’re saying that the contract price is 1.1 billion? [00:55:30.09] spk_0:
Correct. [00:55:40.30] spk_3:
Okay. It takes a long time at night at the rate of 90 year to earn back 1.1 billion. And then it’s a venture profit. It’s a venture capital firm. Well, Fletcher, profit venture capital firm, which is a which is a profit profit firm, [00:55:46.59] spk_2:
that it would be a long [00:55:47.44] spk_0:
time if you had price caps. [00:56:00.20] spk_3:
Yes, but there may be other methods, you know, we’re not, you know, we’re not venture capitalists, so I guess you know it comes with a healthy dose of suspicion, not just skepticism, [00:56:02.04] spk_2:
but I mean challenge. There’s [00:56:04.47] spk_0:
so little information that’s been shared and so [00:56:06.68] spk_2:
many questions way. [00:56:29.19] spk_0:
We have asked, you know how in the community Call it and 10 held. We directly asked Capital if they could confirm how long they plan to own the new version of public interest registry, whatever the new or profit is, how long they plan, tone and invest in that company. And they their answer was a really long time in terms of this work. Okay, well, in terms of private equity, I mean, a year could be a long [00:56:38.39] spk_2:
time, you know, [00:56:55.20] spk_3:
Right on his block post. Eric Brooks says Ethos has stated on multiple occasions that we are committed to investing. P I R for the long haul. Are investors include families and not profit acquisitions with long term investment horizons. Um, okay, now, but [00:56:56.08] spk_2:
your concern is that they could resell it and then and then and then we And then it’s then it’s [00:57:27.76] spk_3:
between 22 Private. Well, even if their public to four profit entities contracting and the outside community has no input into what contracts are between two companies any more than you know any more than we can comment on intends contracts with vendors for NTC, it becomes a matter of private contract in the case of every sale. Okay. All right. What should, uh, what your listeners do. What should we be doing? We gotta we gotta [00:57:34.50] spk_2:
move on What you’ll do, you really [00:57:36.45] spk_0:
love? You can [00:57:37.14] spk_2:
go [00:58:25.50] spk_0:
to save dot org’s dot org’s s a V e D o t org dot or GE where we have posted the recording of the community call, for example, if you want to be able to hear what the folks from these companies have said, uh, you can see the letter that we’ve sent to them that outlined some of the issues in the contract and what is really important right now. As for organizations to sign on and endorse our request that the sale stop or if you can’t sign on behalf of your organization, sign as a person as an individual. Right now there’s almost 550 organizations who have signed on, and we have almost 19,000 people who signed on those numbers really matter and help demonstrate that this isn’t you know, just in 10 and e f f who have a problem, right? This is a lot of organizations diverse people who understand that this is not in the best interest of a non profit, you know, four good world of the internet. [00:59:14.24] spk_3:
Okay, Andi, uh, some of the other organizations involved Association of junior leagues. I’m just sampling from from a list of crisis text line do something dot org’s listeners know Aria finger Do something dot or GE ff Electronic Frontier Foundation Girl Scouts of us A Independent Sector Meals on Wheels America, National Council of Nonprofits and 10 Techsoup Volunteer Match Volunteers of America Wicked Media Y M C A of the U. S. A Y W c A U s A. All right, Amy Sample Ward. Thank you very much. [00:59:22.12] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Tony. I really appreciate you kind of diving into this when I know it can feel a little acronym heavy, but it really will impact every single non profit [00:59:33.62] spk_3:
Amy Sample word social media and technology contributor and CEO of in 10. You’ll find her at Amy sample ward dot or ge and at a M. E. R. S [00:59:40.76] spk_2:
board and Aimee. Simple word. Lots of good wishes for your holidays. And for 2020. That’s a good wishes. Radio, [00:59:47.02] spk_0:
I hope 2020 means we get to see each other in person. [00:59:51.12] spk_2:
Well, we will it ntc [00:59:52.47] spk_3:
But we need to go beyond that. Hopefully. [00:59:54.43] spk_0:
Okay. [00:59:56.03] spk_3:
Thank you so much, Amy. [00:59:59.01] spk_2:
Next week and the week after, there are no shows. I hope you enjoy. Enjoy the hell [01:00:24.21] spk_3:
out of your holidays. Take time for yourself. Disconnect off grid. You know what all that means? I don’t need to flush it out. I hope you do it. I hope you do it for yourself. Friends, Family. Do it. Take the time you need. You need to take time for yourself because you’re in a giving profession. So no show for two weeks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com
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Hello [00:00:41.93] spk_2:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the love, their 95% under aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn extra tropic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Impeachment. Say what? What’s your non profit allowed to say about President Trump’s impeachment and potential removal from office? What about the 2020 election? What do your employees allowed to say, where and when? Jean Takagi has the answers. [00:00:43.68] spk_3:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and exempt organizations Law Group, [00:00:51.04] spk_2:
then save dot or GE. There’s a possibility [00:00:53.45] spk_3:
that management of the dot org’s domain will be privatized. Save dot org’s movement thinks that’s a bad [00:00:59.84] spk_2:
idea, and 10 is part [00:01:01.88] spk_3:
of the opposition movement. And Amy Sample Ward explains why she’s our technology and social [00:01:06.93] spk_2:
media contributor and CEO of 10 on tony Steak, too. [00:01:14.04] spk_3:
Thank you for 2019 were [00:01:14.24] spk_2:
sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali [00:01:54.24] spk_3:
Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO, and I’m hoping that we’re gonna welcome Jean Takagi back. Do we have him? We’re trying. OK, uh, he’s in. Is he in the conference? Okay, we’re trying to call the conference, so I don’t know. Gene probably cannot hear us. So what we’re gonna be talking about is, um, [00:02:02.93] spk_2:
some some stuff on, uh, what’s permissible [00:02:37.85] spk_3:
for 501 See three’s to talk about, um, whether it’s around impeachment or the election election earing things like, Are you allowed to host a candidates forum? Candidates debate. Um, what about promoting issues versus candidates? What do your employees allowed to do? And that’s Ah, that’s what we’ll be covering. We’re gonna [00:02:38.21] spk_2:
do Jeanne Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne! Jeanne de la machine. We got him. Jean Takagi is the managing attorney of Neo, [00:02:44.28] spk_3:
the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non [00:03:02.08] spk_2:
profit lawyer. He’s at G tak. Welcome, Jean Jean. Great. Ah, great to have you. I know you were there, but we were having [00:03:04.94] spk_3:
trouble getting in. But now we’re now we’re in, You’re in and we’re [00:03:12.26] spk_2:
in and s so it’s a very communal Wonderful Are you doing out there? Looking forward to holidays? I’m sure [00:03:15.50] spk_5:
I am. How about you turning [00:03:17.13] spk_2:
very much? Yeah. I love this [00:03:18.50] spk_3:
time. Uh, we have a couple of weeks off from the show, and I have nothing scheduled for a couple of weeks. So, uh, it’s [00:03:25.47] spk_2:
good time, too. I mean, I’ll be working light work light, I guess. And good time. [00:03:30.99] spk_5:
Same way. [00:03:31.64] spk_3:
Yes. Excellent. Good for you. And [00:03:33.71] spk_2:
good time for reflection. [00:03:38.44] spk_3:
I think on the new year, I like that you have any, uh, any goals for Ah, 20 [00:03:42.73] spk_2:
20 that you want to share or anything exciting coming up in 2020. [00:03:53.29] spk_5:
Really excited. My partner, Aaron, Brad, Rick and I are going to be teaching a course at Columbia University starting in January, so we’re really looking forward to that in their non profit a management program. [00:03:59.50] spk_3:
Wonderful is not gonna bring you to New York or you teaching virtually. [00:04:03.29] spk_5:
We’re teaching online, but we may make out a trip itude in New York [00:04:07.89] spk_2:
trip or two. But you gotta let me know. Of course. [00:04:10.12] spk_5:
Absolutely. [00:04:16.83] spk_3:
I mean, unless you want Oh, yeah. I hope you don’t want to stealth in and stealth out. Not not. Talk to me. I certainly wouldn’t do that if I were visiting San Francisco again. [00:04:20.94] spk_2:
Um, okay, so let’s start with the most timely. [00:04:30.74] spk_3:
Um, President Trump was impeached two days ago in the U. S. House of Representatives. Um, [00:04:31.72] spk_2:
what’s, uh what can we talk about? [00:04:33.38] spk_3:
If we’re 501 c three around that [00:04:48.90] spk_5:
Well, it’s a great question and, you know, because they’re different types of 501 see threes and different types of non profit. I should make clear that we’re only talking about public charities here. There’s different rules for different other types of organizations, including private foundations for public charities. There’s quite a lot they can talk about. [00:04:56.93] spk_2:
OK, [00:04:57.64] spk_5:
we should also differentiate between impeachment, which has already happened, and the removal from office, which is still going to be a matter of legislative action, specifically a supermajority vote by the Senate whenever they get that before them. [00:05:11.85] spk_3:
And [00:05:12.57] spk_5:
I know that’s related issues. [00:05:16.20] spk_2:
Okay, uh, because there go ahead. Yeah. So Well, why? Why? Why do we [00:05:21.09] spk_3:
distinguish between those two. This is a big [00:05:24.51] spk_5:
authority happened, [00:05:25.38] spk_2:
Yeah, [00:05:32.43] spk_5:
so because it’s already happened, you know, charity are fairly free to comment on [00:05:33.34] spk_2:
that action. They’re [00:06:33.93] spk_5:
also free to comment about how they feel about governmental leaders in doing their jobs. And, you know, it might be really important to do so in the context that it may really impact the charity’s mission. And, you know, for example, I would think that charity to mission is to end hunger, for example, for for American suffering from poverty. They might have a great deal to say about the administration’s rule to end food stands for like about 700,000 people. You know, the 700,000 people are making, on average 2200 and $50 a year. And if you want to comment on that at a charity, that’s okay the same way you can comment on the impeachment whether you think that that was proper or not. But what may not be okay if you’re gonna be talking about the electability of that person for or in any way talking about the upcoming election so you can talk about impeachment in and of itself on dhe. Whether it was, you think it was right or it was improper. But you can’t start to talk about, um, or start to influence the upcoming election. So that’s a little bit of a fine line. Thio. Walk on [00:06:58.93] spk_3:
okay, and we’ll get to the election and election hearing. What about the coming potential removal from office, The trial in the Senate and, you know, advocating one way or the other for what you think. The Senate, your organization thinks because we’re talking about the organization level, we’ll get. Individual employees will get to that, too. But what your organization thinks about removal from office. [00:07:14.68] spk_5:
So you know, there’s no absolute guidance from the i. R s on the impeachment of the president. Surprise. But, um, there’s It’s generally thought to be attempting to influence the legislative action inaction by the Senate. [00:07:26.24] spk_2:
The mall’s [00:07:51.21] spk_5:
within the tax laws, definition of lobbying and not political campaign intervention. So we know that there’s an absolute bar to, um, you know, endorsing or supporting or opposing candidates for public office. That would be election hearing in that not allowed by any type of 5 23 but public charities are allowed to engage in lobbying so long as it’s considered not substantial, and commenting on a potential legislative action like the removal from office action that will fall before the Senate would be considered lobbying. And to the extent that charity can lobbying and there are some limitations involved, the charity would be free to do so. But again, it has to walk that fine line because we are coming up to an election year on. Dhe has to look like it’s not trying to influence the election itself. So you don’t really want to talk about other candidates for office or on the general overall qualities of Trump as a candidate for another four years. But you want to talk. If you want a charity, you want to talk about the removal from office specifically about what, before the Senate. Why, why would he be removed from from the office? So you’re really took ing taking a look at those two articles of impeachment and commenting on the merits of those articles? [00:09:02.54] spk_3:
Okay, understand? We need to take our first break when we come back very shortly. We’ll, uh, well, we’ll talk more about lobbying and what’s allowed, not allowed there. And, uh, we’re taking a break for, um, for wegner-C.P.As. Of course, in the new year, might you need a C p. A, whose service is excellent, who provides clear directions and timetables and who’s easy to work [00:09:10.88] spk_2:
with. That’s not me talking. [00:09:22.82] spk_3:
That’s from the testimony. Old. That’s not my opinion. That’s, Ah, the opinion of someone who’s worked with not with wegner in the past, a CZ you’ve heard the past few weeks. So if you [00:09:26.02] spk_2:
do talk [00:09:39.50] spk_3:
to partner, you eat each tomb. He’s a good guy. No pressure wegner-C.P.As dot com And now let’s go back to Jean Takagi and Impeachment. Say what? Okay, we’re [00:09:39.89] spk_2:
allowed to do some [00:09:56.68] spk_3:
lobbying, you said, as long as it’s not substantial. Uh, how do we measure substantiality? Substantial ability. Substantiality substantiality. I think it’s I think that’s what This How do we make whatever helps called Republic [00:10:33.26] spk_5:
charities there Two ways to measure it? Sort of. The default way is just what the law cost backs and circumstances, and that leaves it up to the Iraq to determine whether you’ve engaged in too much lobbying or not. And if you want to challenge it, ultimately, a court and nobody really wants to go down that route. So, you know, professionals typically uses guidelines. You know, there was this old case that said, you know, 5% of your resource is that should be okay that, you know, anything under 5% should be okay. You want to think about your expenditures, your volunteer time? You know the amount of publication space you’re giving all of those things. If it’s about 5% or less of your resource is you’re probably not too worried about exceeding the lobbying threshold under that backs in circumstances. [00:10:42.37] spk_3:
Okay, Yeah. 55 percents pretty low. [00:10:46.35] spk_5:
Yeah, it’s pretty low. Um, but, you know, [00:10:48.39] spk_3:
for some [00:11:26.97] spk_5:
organization, that’s all they want to do. But you know, the better choice for the vast majority of charities. And I would say, almost the no brain and choice for charities that are not churches who are ineligible to do this but share other charities that are eligible to make the 5018 lobbying election. I’m. And that that is just a basically 1/2 page born where you put name, address and check a box on it. If you make that election of the charity which could do it any time at all. Um, you get thio, measure your lobbying strictly by your lobbying expenditures, and the limits are just so much more generous. [00:11:27.98] spk_3:
Okay, [00:11:28.59] spk_5:
so it’s 20% of your 1st $500,000 of what they call exempt purpose expenditures or mission related expended [00:11:36.12] spk_3:
choker. [00:11:36.75] spk_5:
20% of that [00:11:40.62] spk_3:
100 $100,000 right there and it’s it’s deemed non substantial. [00:11:46.76] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah, And there’s a separate limit for grassroots lobbying, which is lobbying a different type of lobbying, where you’re not going straight to a legislative body or an employee or member of the legislative body. But you’re going to the public and you’re asking them to contact a member of the legislative body and you have a called action included in that. So if it’s grassroots lobbying, it’s 25% of that total lobbing limit. [00:12:11.99] spk_3:
But [00:12:51.64] spk_5:
expenditure limits under Bible one h are much, much more generous than that 5% kind of rule of thumb that we look at the other time again. Um, a big, big tip for any public charity that wants to, um, discuss the removal from from office, um, stay positions on that before it gets to the Senate or wallets in the Senate, the 501 each election could made and be made any time. And it will be effective for the year. And would you make the election? If you decide you don’t want to, you know, continue electing it. Which might be the case for super big charities. Um, where the 5% could actually be, You know, a lot of money you could, you know, revoke your election that anytime after as well by just filing the same form and checking a different box. So a no brainer election for most public charity. [00:13:00.35] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. So and we’ve talked [00:13:15.52] spk_3:
about this before. I was probably the April 2016 which was the last election year. Um, you and I talked about advocacy generally, and I think the 501 h came up then. So you’re still a five. A one c three. You’re just making this 501 h election for the year. [00:13:23.94] spk_5:
Right? So [00:13:24.75] spk_2:
what do you [00:13:25.08] spk_5:
make it? [00:13:25.49] spk_2:
Your sort [00:13:26.16] spk_5:
of permanently on that until you revoke it. But all it does that 501 age super easy election to make this thing. We don’t want to tell the IRS everything about our lobby. We just want the IRS to measure our lobbying on what was spent. We don’t want to try to estimate volunteer time How much of our office space is dedicated to lobby? We just want to tell them exactly what we spent and recorded on our financial for a lot. So, so much easier to report, so much easier to track. The limits are much easier. And if you violate it, if you go over the lobbying limits without the election, that facts and circumstances test. [00:14:00.03] spk_3:
Yeah, [00:14:00.37] spk_5:
you violated in any one year, you can lose your Bible. One secret that [00:14:04.58] spk_3:
Okay, [00:14:04.93] spk_5:
But if you make the election, you have to violate it over a four year period, not just one year, but over a four year rolling calendar. And then you have violated by more than 50%. [00:14:16.61] spk_3:
Wow. Okay, so that [00:14:18.03] spk_5:
that’s just so much more advantageous. [00:14:39.09] spk_3:
It is sort of a no brainer. And for those much generous, much more generous limits. Okay, cool. All right. 501 inch. Thank you, G. Um, what about our our individual employees? What are in terms of what resource is they’re using when they speak, when they when they speak publicly? What? What are the rules around employees? [00:15:56.92] spk_5:
Well, you know, first thing to recognize is is individual tax First Amendment rights, right? So they have the freedom of speech. They have the freedom to say whatever they want. Charities shouldn’t control what you know their employees or their directors or officers are saying in their individual capacity. But they should control what they’re saying as representative speaking on behalf of the charities. So there’s that distinction to make so again don’t control what you know your your employees and your staff members and volunteers are saying about impeachment or removal or any other wegner slate of action or political endorsement. But make sure that they don’t use any charity. Resource is in doing so, and that’s really important. Don’t let them use their work email address. Don’t let them use the work. Tell a boat. Don’t let them perform those activities. If they’re, they’re, you know, working on campaigns in the office and the charity’s office. And if they should put their name on with the name of their employer, which is a charity on like an endorsement list of a political candidate. Make sure that there’s some sort of Astra’s back says that the name of their employer is only listed there for identification purposes and doesn’t represent an endorsement by the charity itself. [00:16:22.14] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Um and so what? What employees do on there personal time and their personal Facebook Twitter email all all, uh, really of no concern to the to the charity. [00:16:28.54] spk_5:
Yeah, but social media is actually a good point about hitting that gray area, tony, because you probably follow your twitter, tony. So you [00:16:37.06] spk_2:
probably follow you [00:16:42.79] spk_5:
individuals who are on Twitter who have both their name and their charity affiliation like listed? [00:16:46.34] spk_2:
Yeah, in [00:16:55.29] spk_5:
their account, it might be in their Twitter handle, or it might be in their short bio underneath. You know, the Twitter handle. And that’s where it becomes kind of tricky. Who does that Twitter handle belong to? Does it belong to the individual or doesn’t belong to the charity And could the chair to get in trouble if there is a political endorsement or a statement of opposition to a candidate for public office? [00:17:12.21] spk_2:
Yeah, I always [00:18:04.09] spk_3:
have presumed. Although I’ve never followed upto see whether my presumption is, uh is accurate that someone who has the charity name in there either in their handle or, as you say in their short Twitter bio, has another account that doesn’t talk about the charity, Asai said. I never have investigated to see whether they do or not. I’m following their charity account. Um, so maybe maybe people don’t. But that would seem like the better the better practice. And especially if, I mean, shouldn’t that be in a, ah charities social media policy that if you’re going to use the charity name, you know, there are prohibitions around what you can do with that and then and we encourage you? Or we insist that you have, ah, private well non A non charity Twitter account for all other all other non work purposes. [00:18:56.44] spk_5:
Yeah, conservatively. You know, I kind of like that type of policy, tony. But for practical purposes, it’s kind of like our president or or Hillary Clinton when she was running, separating their kind of personal accounts from their work account. Um, there they are co mingled all the time, and not just by charities and their employees, but by four profit in their employees, so disclaimers can work outright prohibitions and requirements that they have a separate, Um, a Twitter account or face social media account may be helpful at times, but often times you know they’re just going to combine the two. So, um, just be careful about that one thing about, you know, sort of the election hearing prohibition that you can’t endorse or oppose the political candidate. One thing did note is that the Republican Party platform and President Trump himself said they really don’t like that Prohibition often referred to as the Johnson [00:19:14.09] spk_3:
and Johnson [00:19:14.70] spk_5:
talked about that before. [00:19:16.87] spk_2:
Well, they [00:19:17.05] spk_5:
want to get rid of it, although most the vast majority of charities. And I think the mast majority of churches. I don’t want to get rid of it because I could turn all charities into these election vehicles for where donors say, You know, I’m not gonna give you this donation unless he said a message to all of your members and donors of, you know, in support of a political candidate, and that would suddenly be okay. [00:20:05.12] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s we’ve been talking. We talked about that. Probably when it around the time it first became a proposal, or at least well, I guess it’s been in the platform. The party platform, you’re saying. But there was some There was more talk about it, I don’t know. A year and 1/2 for two years ago, and we, you and I discussed the Johnson Amendment. Um, it hasn’t happened. Maybe because of the nonprofit community opposition. What what’s your scent? You were you were monitoring that very closely. What’s your sense of where it stands? [00:20:57.67] spk_5:
Yeah, you know, I think the non profit community’s opposition was very, very helpful in that there were there were others who were opposing it. A CZ well, with a matter of policy. And I think as people got more educated about it, it became less and less popular. Um, it was a way for dark money. T sort of enter into the political system where we didn’t really know where the sources were in. People were getting tax deductions on top of it. So it’s something that be really bad. But the reason why I brought it up here is because if an organization wasn’t quite sure, it was speaking out on impeachment or removal from office, and you know we may be crossing that line. Well, conservatively, I would say, Yeah, the closer we are to election time, you’ve got to be careful even within the bounds that I said that it might be a lobbying activity and not, uh uh, banned political campaign activity. But closer do you are to election that could turn into what looks like a political campaign activity. If you’ve never spoken about the impeachment itself, and you just never it looks like your charity was never interested in the issue until just like, you know, a few months before the election with the [00:21:25.32] spk_2:
happened that [00:21:48.92] spk_5:
looks like this casted election hearing communication. But overall, I’m not sure that the I. R s and the current executive branch is really that interested in enforcing the political prohibition laws because, you know, doesn’t resonate with what their messaging has been. Maybe a little bit risk. And it would have been for four years ago. [00:21:49.85] spk_2:
Okay? Yeah. You still [00:21:56.54] spk_3:
want to err on the side of caution, right? I mean, I, you know, because they there could be some exception to their enforcement activity or priorities or something. So but [00:22:01.99] spk_2:
you’re you’re the [00:22:11.33] spk_3:
conservative conservative guy, at least in terms of legal legal advice of the legal advice side. You know, um, least that’s Yeah, [00:22:13.26] spk_2:
that’s always been your You. You’ve always been cautious [00:22:15.77] spk_3:
about advice you give. Yeah, [00:22:41.47] spk_5:
Yeah, I think when we have a lot of smaller to medium sized organizations amongst the client, there’s just less risk capital, you know, private foundation with, you know, $10 billion might have a little bit Arjun for taking a risk and maybe fighting it in court if they felt like the I r s sir. Uh, neutrino general not correct in their interpretation of whether a lot was violated. But for most small and medium sized charities, they can’t afford to have that battle. [00:22:49.70] spk_2:
We’ve been [00:23:15.61] spk_3:
talking mostly about candidates. You mentioned a little bit about issues, but let’s make issues issues clearer versus candidates. Are you saying that if you’re non profit now, as an organization has has been following an issue for a long time and not just doesn’t just start commenting, you know, 60 or 90 days before an election, then eyes that part of the facts and circumstances test for people who don’t for organizations that don’t take the 501 h election. Is that Is that one factor? [00:24:01.94] spk_5:
Well, just commenting on issues themselves, it was If it isn’t stating a position on a piece of legislation, you’re free to do that all you want. So if you’re educating the public about a particular issue, whether it be climate change or, um, you know, immigration, um, you couldn’t talk about broader issues and educate the public. You know, if you’re giving material facts and you’re doing it in a non part of objective and fair manner, that that should be sort of a fundamental thing of what you do if it’s gonna help further your mission. But when you start to comment on a particular piece of law or legislation and say, you know, this is either a good piece of legislation or this is a bad piece of legislation [00:24:11.27] spk_3:
or this [00:24:11.70] spk_5:
new legislation that we need now you’re entering into the realm of lobbying and subject to those limits that we just discussed the 501 h limits or the the facts and circumstances with [00:24:26.22] spk_4:
Okay. Okay. Um, [00:24:28.72] spk_2:
you still there, June? I am okay. Yeah. You [00:24:41.39] spk_3:
Ah ah, word or a syllable at a time seems to pop out, and then it got quiet. So I I, uh I got concerned. Okay, You’re still with us. All right. Good. Um, thank you for flushing that out. [00:24:43.22] spk_2:
What else? What else [00:24:44.49] spk_3:
do you think listeners need to know? [00:26:06.27] spk_5:
Well, there are all sorts of other things that public charities do around election time. Um, you know, they can’t endorsers support any candidates for public office, But the concert, we engage in voter registration and get out the boat drives. You see that all over the place, and you’re gonna continue to see it over the next year. So a CZ longer again there, you know, conducted in the neutral, non partisan matter without reference to, you know, any of the specific candidates or political parties, you can host a candidate debate or forum. I think many of you have seen those, uh, you know, hosted by a public charity. And again, the purpose of the, uh, debates reform should be for educating the public. So you have to be very careful about not doing it in a partisan man is not with leading questions or a selective choice of topics that that might influence the public one way or the other. Be careful about your selection of moderators and how you comment on the candidate’s response. Yes, I want to be careful about the time allotted to each candidate. You know, it would be very wrong if you allowed just one candidate. If there is, it just came down to the presidential race, for example, and you let one party’s candidates speak for 90% of the time and the other candidates to be 10% of the time. It will be pretty clear where that charity is leaning. [00:26:28.95] spk_3:
Okay, So to borrow the old Fox News motto, you need to be fair and balanced, but not fair and balanced like they were where a court ruled that they were de facto, not fair and balanced. Need to be really fair and balance. I think [00:26:29.39] spk_5:
that’s that’s right, [00:26:30.53] spk_2:
and and [00:26:35.50] spk_5:
obviously a charity will have its own mission statement to think about. But they’ve got a sort of put it in their back pocket a little bit when they’re designing those type of debates. Reformed Also, voter guides, Kennedy questionnaires, um, also permissible and even candidate appearances. If you’re providing equal opportunity for all candidates, you see that on television is Wow. [00:27:05.64] spk_3:
Okay. Okay. Um well, we have just about a minute or so left. Uh, what? Ah, what do you want to leave us with for the for the year on this topic? [00:27:17.93] spk_5:
Well, I think I’ll just say I think people should be really active in their advocacy. In furtherance of their mission. There are a few resources that are out there. Board sources stand for your mission. Campaign has some excellent resource is on the Alliance for Justice gives you more than mechanics of what I’ve been talking about. What type of advocacy, What type of lobbying, what type of political activities public charities could do on. There’s some nuances to all of this. There’s another layer of election law that may be on top of all of the tax law we’ve been talking about. So those resources are good places to go and go ahead and advocate as much as you can for your mission. [00:27:58.17] spk_3:
Junior. So modest. Another very good source is non profit law blawg, which is at non profit law blogged dot com. And Jeanne, I wish you lots of [00:28:01.34] spk_2:
let’s of enjoyment, lots of good time. [00:28:03.07] spk_4:
Uh, I [00:28:03.64] spk_3:
hope you enjoy your holidays and the New Year [00:28:07.14] spk_5:
Happy holidays to you and your family. Tony, [00:28:28.89] spk_3:
thank you very much, Gene. It’s a pleasure. And thank you so much for what you’ve done for 2019 and what we’re looking forward to. In 2020 he’s Jean Takagi, my pleasure, managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group. He edits that non profit log log, and he’s at G Tak. Now it’s time for a [00:28:33.08] spk_2:
break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits The same nonprofits we’ve been talking about, the ones, the ones we all know. Non profit radio, for God’s sake. What does that mean For you? [00:29:00.64] spk_3:
That means fund accounting. No more spreadsheets to manage your restricted grant funds. Also fraud prevention and exceptional customer service. You’ve heard all that in the testimonials. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now let’s transition, [00:29:03.15] spk_4:
uh, [00:29:03.88] spk_2:
subtly, but ah, but smoothly, uh, suddenly and [00:29:27.75] spk_3:
smoothly to tony stick to and my thanks for you. Our listener. Listeners in 2019 were the number one podcast for nonprofits. Most listened to, uh, most longest running, most consistently produced, most sponsored just generically. Overall, you can say Number one podcast for nonprofits. And [00:29:35.00] spk_2:
that’s because we have so many listeners. So I am grateful [00:29:49.24] spk_3:
to you. Thank you for your listening If you have shared the show. I appreciate that as well. Thank you for that. That’s how we grow the audiences by listeners sharing what? What [00:29:49.94] spk_2:
they believe is good content. So thank you with you. Listen, live or archive. [00:29:54.54] spk_4:
It [00:30:13.47] spk_3:
makes no difference. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to see my thank you wishes from the Chesapeake Bay, then you can view the video at my thank you video. Thank you so much. We [00:30:13.61] spk_2:
have a B sample ward. We do not have [00:30:55.80] spk_3:
any sample word. She hasn’t called into the conference line yet. Okay, well, uh, when when we do connect with her, um, we will be talking about save dot org’s. The issue is that the dot org’s domain that we all use I don’t use you all use. I actually don’t use I’m dot com for my for my business. Um, but you all use it. You know how important it is. There’s the potential that it will be managed by, ah company ethos, which is the water, you know, you may know ethos water. Um, that’s the company that may gain control of the dot or domain. And Amy and I will talk about how these things are all managed. Um, we [00:31:03.55] spk_2:
have Amy as Amy called in yet [00:31:40.84] spk_3:
means not. Okay, So what we’re gonna do is, um Let’s do the live listener. Love will do that. And if you will give me a nen dull Jin ce for a few seconds, I’m gonna get my phone and share with Emily. Amy sample Ward’s contact info so that Emily can text and call Amy. So hang on while I get my phone. Okay? The dreaded dead airtime. [00:31:43.74] spk_2:
But I told [00:32:11.54] spk_3:
you was coming. So, uh, you had you had time to prepare, so it should not have been dreadful. Uh, for you, So I’m getting her in my pulling up in my contacts. Okay, Emily, Here you go. There’s the ways to contact Amy. Sample word. Please Do use my phone actually, or whatever you want to use. All right, so we’ll be talking about dot Organ. There’s a movement. Does The hashtag is saved dot or Ge? Well, I’m only works [00:32:29.19] spk_2:
on that. Let’s do the lifeless in love and it is extensive. My gosh, Um let’s go abroad first. Tokyo, Japan! Oh, konnichi wa Ramat Gone Israel! Welcome, Live! Listen, love to Israel as well as Japan. Gwangju, South Korea. You’ve [00:32:35.28] spk_3:
been with us before. Gwangju. Thank you so much. Seoul, South Korea as well. Um [00:32:41.53] spk_2:
Brazil. Mina Mina Gerais meant Minas Gerais. Jakarta, Indonesia, [00:32:42.64] spk_3:
Capital of Indonesia, of [00:33:07.84] spk_2:
course. Live! Listen, love Thio. Each of our foreign listeners and they continue coaching men city in Vietnam. And, uh, well, we see Vietnam from time to time. Thank you. Live low about to Vietnam and touch skin sherry in Uzbekistan. Yeah, it was Pakistan. Not too often, but we’ve heard from you before. So very glad. Very glad you’re with us. Who’s Becca? Stan? Vietnam, Indonesia, Brazil, South Korea, Israel, Japan. [00:33:20.68] spk_3:
Multiple. South Korea, of course. Want credit that live? Listen, love. After each of those, uh, countries and coming abroad, we’ve got, um Brooklyn, New [00:33:24.94] spk_2:
York, Cheyney State Park, Kansas. That’s interesting. Cheyney State Park. Are you actually in the state park? You can, uh that’s interesting. You listening from the State Park. Wonderful. I’m a very [00:33:43.26] spk_3:
big advocate of state parks. Public lands. You got it. You gotta have park. That used to be the motto in New York City, but it applies throughout the country. Doesn’t matter. Of course you gotta have park green space. Um, [00:33:49.29] spk_2:
Ashburn, Virginia. San Francisco, California, Tampa, Florida, Fairfield, Connecticut. Live love everywhere. We’ve got her. Okay, well, on the heels of the live love Let’s see now we got to make her wait, [00:33:55.85] spk_3:
because there’s no way that I’m doing a lot of love without the podcast pleasantry. So now she’s gonna [00:33:59.60] spk_2:
have to wait. She called in late. It’s our own fault. Um, the podcast pleasantries are over 13,000 listeners. [00:34:06.65] spk_3:
You heard me say it on Tony’s Take Two. But [00:34:09.17] spk_2:
I’m grateful. Thank you so [00:34:10.49] spk_3:
much for being a part of our listener audience. The podcast listeners. Thank you. [00:34:23.20] spk_2:
Any sample Ward. She’s our social media and technology contributor and the CEO of N 10. Her most recent co authored book is social change Anytime, everywhere [00:34:26.74] spk_3:
about online multi channel engagement. She’s [00:34:32.63] spk_2:
that amy sample ward dot org’s oh dot org’s. This is considered a potential personal personal threat dot ord and she’s at a me RS ward. Any sample ward. Welcome back. [00:34:53.87] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m not sure what happened. I’ve been trying since, like, 10 20 to get in. And I assume I always assume user error trying to re dial, and it never let me in. [00:34:57.38] spk_2:
Okay, Well, we had the same trouble [00:34:58.91] spk_3:
here, actually trying to connect with Jean Takagi. We saw that he was in the conference system, but we couldn’t get in ourselves to connect with him so on. And so it’s probably not user error times, too. There’s something flunky. [00:35:12.16] spk_2:
And the reason we’re using [00:35:21.69] spk_3:
this conference system and rather than having you call the studio directly, which we almost always do, is because there’s some problem with the with [00:35:21.81] spk_2:
the phone line. Four lines? Yeah. [00:35:23.94] spk_3:
So we’re using the conference line. Of course, we need the phone line to get the company line, But [00:35:33.87] spk_2:
anyway, well, you’re a technology technologist, our technology contributor. It’s wonderful until it fails. I mean, I’m almost I’m almost sorry for saying this. I do apologizing. That was gratified that you have trouble with technology too. [00:35:43.21] spk_0:
Oh, don’t worry. People are always so happy when an 10 [00:35:46.72] spk_2:
says that something [00:35:48.02] spk_0:
that happened because it’s so validating. [00:35:51.43] spk_2:
You [00:36:22.00] spk_0:
know, it happens to all of us, because at the end of the day, all these tools, they’re just tools, right? They’re not perfect systems. Humans built all of them and humans that themselves. They’re not perfect. So things are bound to happen. But I think it’s really interesting the way folks respond when something, you know, technological is happening. That is not what they want. You know, the folks who get really frustrated and upset, and it’s like, Well, sure, But you know, how far is that getting [00:36:23.35] spk_2:
you [00:36:24.02] spk_0:
or the folks who are like, Oh, I’m gonna you know, like MacGyver my way around, just like you all did. So good. Good for you for having a productive response, [00:36:34.73] spk_2:
Thank you very much. And for you as well. [00:36:36.44] spk_3:
You kept trying. And, uh, I could I could imagine that your frustration was growing as 10 30 Pacific time came and went, which is the time I I was expecting your call. I can imagine your heart rate was rising blood pressure as well. But you [00:36:51.11] spk_2:
mean I mean, [00:36:51.78] spk_0:
what could you know? I usually like to dial in early and listen. [00:36:54.52] spk_3:
Yes. [00:36:55.08] spk_0:
And so I tried. But [00:36:57.23] spk_2:
you know, to know about it [00:37:00.06] spk_0:
anyway, here I am. [00:37:04.26] spk_2:
Indeed, let’s talk about save dot or ge I While we were waiting [00:37:06.00] spk_3:
for you, I was introducing the topic. I explained the listeners that there’s the potential that the dot org’s domain could be managed by a private company [00:37:20.46] spk_2:
ethos My saying that right? Or they are ethos right ethos. Okay, which is the water that they’re also there? I think [00:37:25.44] spk_3:
they’re best known for water. At least that’s the way I know them. Their social. [00:37:26.07] spk_2:
No, they’re [00:37:26.36] spk_0:
brand new, so I don’t think they’re best known for anything. [00:37:29.42] spk_3:
Oh, listen to the oh, we’re [00:37:37.08] spk_2:
already getting. They’re already getting some attitude about this subject. All right there, Brandon. E. Hear it? I heard the tone. I know you. I heard that tone. All right, so this is not the ethos water company, [00:37:42.12] spk_0:
brand new [00:37:42.83] spk_2:
private [00:37:43.21] spk_0:
equity firm. [00:37:43.81] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, brand new [00:37:45.14] spk_3:
private equity firm. Okay. I didn’t know it was brand new. I just kept seeing equity from All right. So [00:37:49.39] spk_2:
let’s introduce, I think to get our way into this, we need to understand how [00:37:54.06] spk_3:
this domain the dot org’s domain is managed. I mean, and I know you’ll be right. I know you’ll be judicious about acronyms because you don’t want to end up in jargon jail S o, I [00:38:05.01] spk_2:
think. But I think it helps to understand how this [00:38:07.05] spk_3:
thing this dot org’s is managed. [00:38:13.47] spk_0:
Right. Okay, so I’m going to try and explain in some somewhat basic terms. [00:38:18.47] spk_2:
Okay, But then [00:38:22.62] spk_0:
I will rely on you to interject questions or fast forward or pause, you know, as I go. [00:38:26.84] spk_3:
Okay. [00:39:42.59] spk_0:
Okay. So the internet, everyone listening has used it. I’s probably using it to listen even And we know that website, You know, we don’t just write non profit radio. We write non profit radio dot whatever, and the part of the website that comes at the dot whatever follows is called a top level domain. So there cannot. We can’t just go make one up. Those top level domains are managed, and there’s only so many of them. And I can they use the acronym I can as their name, which stands for Internet Corporation for assigned names and numbers. There you can kind of think about them is like the body that’s mento. Organize the Internet, So they’re the ones that say OK, you know, we’re allowed to use dot com and dot or GE and dot I owe and dot. Whatever else, they’re kind of the keepers of the order. So they are involved in olive ist as those keepers of the order. Okay, The next group we need to talk about is the Internet society that is a nonprofit organization, and their mission is essentially to promote a globally connected and trustworthy Internet. [00:39:48.31] spk_3:
Okay, listeners may see the acronym I s O. C, right. Let’s [00:39:54.36] spk_2:
have the night knock Internet society yet. [00:40:31.46] spk_0:
So, almost 20 years ago there, when I can waas working to continue their their work and managing those top level domains, uh, they bid tohave the contract for the dot org’s domain. And there was a lot of conversation about the value of a non profit managing the top level domain that’s essentially four non profit right instead of a four profit domain registrar. [00:40:36.01] spk_2:
So I can I can is itself a non profit. Yes, okay. [00:42:38.49] spk_0:
And Internet society is non profit, and they they won the dot or contract, and in the process of that, created another non profit called public interest registry PR, which would be the organization that owned the contract and operationally managed it. But P I. R. Was connected to Internet society, so Internet Society was choosing the board for P i. R. And revenue kickbacks went to Internet society, that kind of thing. So there very closely related as organizations. You No one is like the owner of the other. And for the last, like 18 years or so, PR has managed the dot or domain, and their work has included managing that. Making sure that there’s, um, resource is for non profit. They have they have, you know, everything from sponsoring events to funding training programs, Thio investing in research about, you know, the way non prophecies, the Internet. They’ve done lots of things to kind of re invest the money they make into the use of the Internet by non profit, and everyone kind of thought things were fine. Who write things are moving along just fine, and last month’s just over a month ago from today. All of a sudden, there was an announcement from Andrewsullivan, the executive director of the Internet Society, that they we’re going to sell P. I r to a private equity firm and that it was essentially great news because Internet society would get so much money from the sale that they would create an endowment for themselves. That was kind of position is the only the good news about this was because it would just be so much money for them. [00:42:44.95] spk_2:
Okay, that was that. That was obviously early day. [00:42:48.45] spk_3:
That was early day, because I in my research, I didn’t find I didn’t even find that anymore. So that that [00:42:54.27] spk_2:
must have been that their first position. I’ll tell you what. We got to take our [00:42:56.90] spk_3:
break, Theo. Only one we need to take. And then you and I can continue to invest the show. Okay. Thank you. Um, [00:43:04.35] spk_2:
have you ever wondered why some nonprofits [00:43:13.42] spk_3:
are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do just that. They are themselves former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. [00:43:29.45] spk_2:
It’s all about the relationships almost in life. What isn’t There are turn hyphen [00:43:41.49] spk_3:
to dot ceo, all right. And we have but loads more time for Amy Sample Ward and save dot org’s. Okay, So the initial justification for this well, it’s not really much of a initial rationale. It’s not even it didn’t even didn’t even bother with justification. Just initial rationale was this will be good for I sock will make a lot of money by selling P I R. [00:43:53.80] spk_0:
Yep. [00:43:54.31] spk_3:
Okay, [00:43:59.51] spk_0:
which of course, uh, raise a lot of questions. [00:44:02.12] spk_2:
A lot of black people. [00:44:32.91] spk_0:
And now the second piece that we need to talk about happened months before this announcement. So back in the early spring, the contract details for the dot or contract were up for renegotiation with I can and a few things happened in that renegotiation that already have the community kind of in critical response. Those things included some changes to what had, for a long time been part of the contract. One of those was taking away the price cats, so prices could be set at whatever was desired. [00:44:45.21] spk_2:
The price for [00:44:47.40] spk_3:
a dot org’s domain is very low, right? [00:44:50.79] spk_0:
It’s about $10 [00:44:52.71] spk_3:
$10 for the year. Okay, [00:44:54.88] spk_2:
Okay, you’re more acquainted [00:44:56.72] spk_3:
with this and I am because I don’t use dot org’s I love Dot or GQ. You know, I make my living at dot org’s, but I don’t I don’t use it personally, All right? So, yeah, it’s $10 a year. Okay, so they’re So the initial conversation about a contract renewal was take away those takeaway a price cap, [00:45:23.25] spk_0:
take away the price cap, and then some other pieces that essentially made folks feel that it could be organizations with these domains. There’s some vulnerabilities around censorship and that kind of thing. [00:45:30.91] spk_2:
Okay, So a [00:45:31.79] spk_0:
number of organizations [00:45:33.22] spk_2:
and [00:46:04.28] spk_0:
people had responded to those changes back in the summer and spring saying, you know, Hey, wait a second. This is not right. This does not feel right. This is, you know, longstanding components of the contract. Why’re these Chicken Jane? And despite overwhelming over 3000 responses saying don’t do this, I can. And public interest registry went ahead and the contract gotta prove that way. [00:46:05.26] spk_3:
Ok, wasn’t I? Sock, actually, isn’t I Sock? [00:46:09.57] spk_0:
I can [00:46:10.46] spk_2:
I can. Okay, but I stock [00:46:12.67] spk_3:
owns public interest registry, right? [00:46:15.88] spk_0:
Sure. But public interest registry is kind of the manager there. The owner of the contract. [00:46:21.62] spk_3:
Ok, ok, and they’re the ones who managed the managed. OK, all right, So now [00:46:43.06] spk_0:
and what is kind of an added so we can think about it as there’s all of these changes happening? And then, isn’t it so convenient that now a private equity firm is willing to pay over a $1,000,000,000 for this contract that no longer includes price caps and includes some vulnerabilities around? [00:46:50.72] spk_2:
Wait. Oh, I hold on. I didn’t see that. The price tag is over a $1,000,000,000. [00:46:57.22] spk_0:
$1.12 billion. [00:47:11.85] spk_2:
Wow. Okay, I did not see that. I was I was wondering, but I hope she’s okay. So All right, so the question All right, So let’s let’s fast forward now. You aren’t [00:47:20.74] spk_0:
even following who don’t. Maybe you don’t even work in a non profit that has a doubt or domain. You can already see from, like a, you know, business magazine perspective. What? What seems questionable about the situation? [00:47:29.30] spk_2:
How the hell are they? How the hell is going to make all that money back, right? Yes. On the backs of [00:47:34.24] spk_3:
America’s 1.3 million charities. [00:47:37.88] spk_0:
Well, and keep in mind, this is for the entire globe. this is non profit over the entire [00:47:43.35] spk_2:
world way. Talk [00:47:49.38] spk_0:
about wanting to have a human rights lens on reviewing this transaction. When we talk about vulnerabilities for censorship, we’re thinking about non profit, not necessarily in the U. S. We’re thinking about non profit in parts of the world where they rely on a dot or domain so that people here in the U. S. No. Oh, this must be a new organization doing good work. I’m willing to donate to them. I’m willing to support them. They’re likely doing work in a geographic region where their government is not in support of what they’re doing right. And having vulnerabilities for censorship means their government could just turn their website off. Right? [00:48:28.27] spk_2:
So, [00:49:21.43] spk_0:
uh, there’s a lot happening that is sure maybe not happening in this moment, but very, very likely could happen, right, because these changes have happened. So, um, what has also been challenging is that in a few of these public forums and 10 held a community call and invited the folks from Internet society and PR to come. And John Nevins said that he asked for those changes to be added into the contract, which kind of further creates this web of questioning about who knew this was happening. And how long was this plan, right? If those changes to the contract are what made the contract worth apparently over a $1,000,000,000 how did all of this happen? [00:49:23.63] spk_2:
Did you have someone from ethos on the call? [00:49:30.23] spk_0:
We did Eric Brooks, That Theo. [00:49:50.31] spk_3:
Okay. And he has, uh, yes, I wanna be. I wanna be balanced here because he has a block post that from December 16th where he answers some of the answers, all the questions that a Mozilla Block post had had asked [00:49:57.17] spk_0:
Answer some of those questions and I would say responded to them. Did not answer them, [00:50:29.66] spk_3:
You would say responded. Okay, okay. So, like, for instance, on the pricing, um, what assurances gonna dot Or community have that ethos and p i r will keep their promises regarding price increases. We’re committed to limit increases for dot, or domain registrations prices to no more than 10% per year on average, based on domain prices today, that would equate to an additional $1 per year. We plan to embed these pricing commitments in our public benefit LLC or other corporate governing documents that that doesn’t care. Is that not satisfactory? [00:50:43.24] spk_0:
No, I mean on average. So that could say, over the next 20 years, the average has been 10%. We all understand that Average doesn’t mean every year has to be. [00:51:05.50] spk_3:
Yes. Okay. Okay. Now Eric says that they are Ah, they’re going to create a P I R. Stewardship Council. Right now, The Stewardship Council, um, concept behind our proposal is to put in place a dot org’s community advisory board body. The council will seek input from the daughter of community and convey the needs of the data or community to P i R. Management provide advice to p ay, our leadership on key matters impacting the daughter of community. And the leading voice in recommending new service is capabilities to be offered through the dot org’s platform to serve the mission driven community. [00:51:29.44] spk_0:
Yeah, [00:51:31.06] spk_3:
okay. What? You know, [00:52:33.02] spk_0:
they had a, uh webinar. I guess you’d call it yesterday. So did and spoke at more length. It wasn’t a discussion or, you know, they didn’t take live questions or anything like that. But they spoke at more length about the same topics. And what we can understand about this advisory council is that the P. I. R. Board and the folks already working there working within this deal will choose who the council is. The council has no actual authority. Oh, our mechanisms for accountability. And, you know, it’s like a group that they have chosen that they say is able to give be back. So I don’t see how it addresses any of the kind of concerns that rest of the dot or community has for riel accountability. [00:52:35.39] spk_3:
Okay, so your concern is that it would just be like an advisory board on sort of perfunctory and not not without really thought without authority. The authority would [00:52:48.12] spk_2:
still be may not [00:52:52.65] spk_0:
be folks who would have divers or critical views because their hand selected. [00:52:57.75] spk_2:
Okay, well, hey, did say [00:53:09.60] spk_3:
again Eric Brooks in his block post. He said that there would be standards for qualifications for membership on the stewardship Council. So [00:53:10.65] spk_0:
sure, [00:53:11.40] spk_2:
they would think [00:53:12.31] spk_0:
that’s a pretty like white, dominant view of saying I’m gonna choose my friends. [00:53:31.50] spk_3:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because, Well, yeah, The question is whether the dot or community would have input into, I guess I guess we’re talking about. Enter the terms of this disagreement between ethos and I saw. Right, [00:53:32.83] spk_0:
Right. So we’re moving from a world where the dot or contract is managed by a non profit organization who would also managed by a non profit er organization and into a world where the dot or contract is held by a for profit entity owned by a private equity firm. [00:53:50.69] spk_2:
Do it right. Just the principles [00:54:02.33] spk_0:
of those organizational set up completely changes the context in which the dot or contract is maintained. Right? We’re going from a non profit entity reinvesting any additional funds back into the sector to two organizations that are really meant to maximize profit. Right? [00:54:18.87] spk_3:
I understand. I do understand. And this falls into the category of I I’ve noticed this more in the past 10 years or so. We [00:54:23.50] spk_2:
have to I feel like I have to fight Maur for what I did to keep status quo. [00:54:28.65] spk_4:
Um [00:54:29.74] spk_0:
Yep. [00:54:32.60] spk_3:
So this is something that all [00:54:32.93] spk_0:
right, let alone progress. [00:54:37.08] spk_2:
But yeah, I’m just I’m just Internet [00:54:54.29] spk_0:
society. Didn’t feel that it was sustainable to manage PR PR didn’t feel like it was manageable. Thio sustain the dot or contract there’s a different solution to that than completely, you know, throwing it out. [00:54:56.36] spk_3:
I understand. All right. I’m [00:54:57.40] spk_2:
gonna let us go [00:54:57.93] spk_3:
a little longer. We are. Typically, we would end right about now, but let’s let’s go another few minutes. Not not not 10 minutes. Because listeners are pretty much counting on on our but, you know, really go another 45 minutes. [00:55:09.79] spk_2:
Do we know how much [00:55:12.26] spk_3:
revenue P I R earns? I don’t know. Over the [00:55:16.01] spk_2:
past years, Annual 19 nineties [00:55:18.24] spk_0:
and that kind of thing. [00:55:20.44] spk_2:
Okay, what do you know? [00:55:21.19] spk_0:
It’s like 90 year. [00:55:24.12] spk_3:
90 year? Okay. And you’re saying that the contract price is 1.1 billion? [00:55:30.09] spk_0:
Correct. [00:55:40.30] spk_3:
Okay. It takes a long time at night at the rate of 90 year to earn back 1.1 billion. And then it’s a venture profit. It’s a venture capital firm. Well, Fletcher, profit venture capital firm, which is a which is a profit profit firm, [00:55:46.59] spk_2:
that it would be a long [00:55:47.44] spk_0:
time if you had price caps. [00:56:00.20] spk_3:
Yes, but there may be other methods, you know, we’re not, you know, we’re not venture capitalists, so I guess you know it comes with a healthy dose of suspicion, not just skepticism, [00:56:02.04] spk_2:
but I mean challenge. There’s [00:56:04.47] spk_0:
so little information that’s been shared and so [00:56:06.68] spk_2:
many questions way. [00:56:29.19] spk_0:
We have asked, you know how in the community Call it and 10 held. We directly asked Capital if they could confirm how long they plan to own the new version of public interest registry, whatever the new or profit is, how long they plan, tone and invest in that company. And they their answer was a really long time in terms of this work. Okay, well, in terms of private equity, I mean, a year could be a long [00:56:38.39] spk_2:
time, you know, [00:56:55.20] spk_3:
Right on his block post. Eric Brooks says Ethos has stated on multiple occasions that we are committed to investing. P I R for the long haul. Are investors include families and not profit acquisitions with long term investment horizons. Um, okay, now, but [00:56:56.08] spk_2:
your concern is that they could resell it and then and then and then we And then it’s then it’s [00:57:27.76] spk_3:
between 22 Private. Well, even if their public to four profit entities contracting and the outside community has no input into what contracts are between two companies any more than you know any more than we can comment on intends contracts with vendors for NTC, it becomes a matter of private contract in the case of every sale. Okay. All right. What should, uh, what your listeners do. What should we be doing? We gotta we gotta [00:57:34.50] spk_2:
move on What you’ll do, you really [00:57:36.45] spk_0:
love? You can [00:57:37.14] spk_2:
go [00:58:25.50] spk_0:
to save dot org’s dot org’s s a V e D o t org dot or GE where we have posted the recording of the community call, for example, if you want to be able to hear what the folks from these companies have said, uh, you can see the letter that we’ve sent to them that outlined some of the issues in the contract and what is really important right now. As for organizations to sign on and endorse our request that the sale stop or if you can’t sign on behalf of your organization, sign as a person as an individual. Right now there’s almost 550 organizations who have signed on, and we have almost 19,000 people who signed on those numbers really matter and help demonstrate that this isn’t you know, just in 10 and e f f who have a problem, right? This is a lot of organizations diverse people who understand that this is not in the best interest of a non profit, you know, four good world of the internet. [00:59:14.24] spk_3:
Okay, Andi, uh, some of the other organizations involved Association of junior leagues. I’m just sampling from from a list of crisis text line do something dot org’s listeners know Aria finger Do something dot or GE ff Electronic Frontier Foundation Girl Scouts of us A Independent Sector Meals on Wheels America, National Council of Nonprofits and 10 Techsoup Volunteer Match Volunteers of America Wicked Media Y M C A of the U. S. A Y W c A U s A. All right, Amy Sample Ward. Thank you very much. [00:59:22.12] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Tony. I really appreciate you kind of diving into this when I know it can feel a little acronym heavy, but it really will impact every single non profit [00:59:33.62] spk_3:
Amy Sample word social media and technology contributor and CEO of in 10. You’ll find her at Amy sample ward dot or ge and at a M. E. R. S [00:59:40.76] spk_2:
board and Aimee. Simple word. Lots of good wishes for your holidays. And for 2020. That’s a good wishes. Radio, [00:59:47.02] spk_0:
I hope 2020 means we get to see each other in person. [00:59:51.12] spk_2:
Well, we will it ntc [00:59:52.47] spk_3:
But we need to go beyond that. Hopefully. [00:59:54.43] spk_0:
Okay. [00:59:56.03] spk_3:
Thank you so much, Amy. [00:59:59.01] spk_2:
Next week and the week after, there are no shows. I hope you enjoy. Enjoy the hell [01:00:24.21] spk_3:
out of your holidays. Take time for yourself. Disconnect off grid. You know what all that means? I don’t need to flush it out. I hope you do it. I hope you do it for yourself. Friends, Family. Do it. Take the time you need. You need to take time for yourself because you’re in a giving profession. So no show for two weeks. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com
Nonprofit Radio for December 13, 2019: Zombie Loyalists
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Transcript for 469_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20191213.mp3
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non [00:00:36.83] spk_3:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn ex ophthalmic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Zombie Loyalists. Peter Shankman is a five times best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book, Zombie Loyalists, focuses on customer service, creating rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. This originally aired December 19th 2014. I like to play it once a year. It’s it’s really valuable. Great lessons in here on tony Stake to Thank You for 2019 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software, The Nolly Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here’s Zombie Loyalists [00:02:46.75] spk_4:
Peter Shankman is a well known and often quoted social media marketing and public relations strategist. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists. He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. He’s got super ideas and very valuable stories. I’m very glad Peter Shankman is with me in the studio. He’s the founder of Haro. Help, a reporter out connecting journalists with sources in under two years from starting it in his apartment. Horror was sending out 1500 media queries a week to more than 200,000 sources worldwide was acquired by Vocus in 2010. He’s the founder and CEO of the Geek Factory, a boutique social media, marketing and PR strategy firm in New York City. Peter is on NASA’s civilian Advisory Council. You’ll find him at Shenkman dot com, and he’s at Peter Shankman on Twitter. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists, using great service to create rabid fans. I’m very glad his book brings him to non profit radio and the studio Welcome, Peter. Good to be here, tony. Thanks Pleasure. U, um, live on the West side of Manhattan and you and you, there’s ah, there’s a pretty well known five star steakhouse. I’ll get Wolfgang’s not far from you, but you pass it to go to a different steakhouse. Direct Morton’s correct. Why is that [00:03:42.22] spk_0:
more. I am a zombie loyalist to Morton’s. What does that mean? I love the service, the attention to detail, the quality, the sort of where everyone knows my name mentality. When I walk into that Morton’s or any Mortons around the world, they have a tremendous custom relationship management system. When I call one number in New York or anywhere in the world, it they know who I am by my cell phone. And, uh, I’m treated with just, you know, phenomenal. Uh uh. Happiness toe here for me and my wishes were granted is aware. I know we have it, eh? Happy hour, Holiday party coming up at Morton’s next couple days. And, uh, you know, as always, I forgot to call and make a reservation. You know, I called and yesterday and said, Hey, I need a chance to get a reservation for seven people. Um, you know, there’s a night at, uh, 7 p.m. Which is, you know, the week of the holiday party. And they looked and they said, Oh, well, and then I guess their computer system kicked in. Of [00:03:50.26] spk_6:
course, Mr [00:04:34.44] spk_0:
Shankar, not a problem. I’ll get the Florida, you know, have it. We’ll have a great booth for you. That about, um, you know, and well, uh, tell us names. The people attending, you know, you know, you know, they’re gonna have specialized menus for them and their names on it. They really they have, ah, really high level of service that they provide, Not just to me. That’s the beauty of it. You know, it’s one thing for everybody. Yeah, it’s one thing if they just provided to me, but they do that for everyone. And, um, that is huge because, you know, being able to call when a normal person makes reservation. And not that I’m special. I’m actually rather abnormal. But when a normal person makes a reservation and says No, Martin says, Okay, greater you celebrating anything? So, yeah, it’s my wife’s birthday. That’s always after anyone. So you know what? It’s my wife’s birthday. Great. What’s her name? And her name’s Megan. Whatever. And you you go in and they and you sit down on the on the menu. It is Happy birthday. Make it. And then Megan, whoever she happens to be well, in the next 45 minutes, you know, taking 50 selfies with her menu and that’ll go online. And when her friends, you know, want that same experience, they’re gonna go. Morton’s [00:04:49.82] spk_4:
you say in the book, you get the customers you want by being beyond awesome to the customers you have. And that’s why I want to start with that Morton’s story, which is in the middle of the book. But they do it for everybody, and then they have the V. I. P. S as well. And there’s the terrific story of you tweeting tell that story. That’s a good story. [00:05:09.16] spk_6:
It’s a good [00:05:09.54] spk_0:
story. Stories. I was flying home from a day trip to Florida and was exhausted and starving and [00:05:15.98] spk_4:
they trip meeting. You’re flying down [00:05:48.08] spk_0:
down to 6 a.m. Lunch meeting flew back same day one of those one of those days, and I jokingly said, The tweet Hey, Morton’s, why don’t you meet me at Newark Airport when I land with a porterhouse in two hours? Ha ha ha ha ha. Um, you know, I said it the same way you’d say winter, Please stop snowing things like that. And I landed, uh, find my driver and said, Next, my driver is a is ah, waiter in a tuxedo with the Mortons bag. They saw my tweet. They put it together. They managed to bring me a ah, a steak and and, you know, as [00:05:48.25] spk_6:
great of a [00:07:24.94] spk_0:
story, is it is it that’s that’s It’s a great stunt and it’s a great story and it wasn’t staged. It was completely amazing. But you know, that’s not what they’re about. They’re not about delivering stakes to airports. They’re about making a great meal for you and treating you like world when you come in. And you know, if they just did that, if they just deliver the state of the airport but their quality and service sucked, you know, it wouldn’t be a story, you know, like they did for Peter. But, you know, my steak’s cold, you know? So what it really comes down to is the fact they do treat everyone like kings. And that’s that’s really, really important, because what winds up happening, you have a great experience of borns, and then you tell the world, you know Oh, yeah, great dinner last night. That was amazing. I would totally there again. And as we moved to this new world, where review sites are going away, and I don’t I don’t I need to go to yelp reviews and people I don’t know. You know, if they’re shills, whatever the case may be, I don’t know. Or trip Advisor. Same thing. I want people in my network quite trust and people in their network who they trust by default, I trust. So that’s gonna be that’s already happening automatically when I when I land in l. A and I type in steakhouse, Not me. I know I know where the steakhouse Donnelly, but if someone typed into Google Maps or Facebook Steak House in Los Angeles, you know they’ll see all the State Council’s on Google map. But if any of their friends have been to any of them, they’ll see those first. And if they had a good experience, only if the sentiment is positive, will they see those first. And that’s pretty amazing, because if you think about that, the simple act of tweeting at a photo Oh my God, thanks so much more to love this. That’s positive sentiment. That network knows that, And so if you’re looking for a steak house, you know, and your friend six months ago had that experience. Oh, my God. Amazing state. This is a great place. The sentiments will be there. And and And the network will know that network will show you that steakhouse because you trust [00:07:26.34] spk_4:
your friend. And this is where we start to cultivate zombie loyalists. Exactly. Is through this awesome customer service of the customers you have. Say more about something. [00:07:34.15] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you have so many companies out there who are trying to get the next greatest customer, You know, you see all the ads, the Facebook post. You know where 990 followers are? 10 are 1000. Follower gets a free gift. Well, that’s [00:07:48.17] spk_6:
current [00:07:55.66] spk_0:
saying, screw you to the original 990 followers who you had who were there since the beginning. We don’t care about you. We want that 1000. You know, that’s not cool. Um, the the companies who see their numbers rise and you see their fans increase in there. They’re, um um revenues go up. Are the ones who are nice to the customers they have. Hey, you know, customer 8 52 It was really nice of you to join us a couple months ago. How you know, how are you? We noticed that you posted on something about a, uh you know, your car broke down. Well, you know, we’re not in the car business, but, you know, you’re you’re two blocks from our our closest ah, outlet or whatever. And you know, once you if you need to come in, have a cup of coffee, will it use the phone? Whatever. You know, those little things that you could do that that really focusing the customers. You haven’t make the customers. You have the ones where the zombies who tell other customers have great your [00:08:36.38] spk_4:
And this all applies to non profit, certainly as well. [00:09:13.47] spk_0:
But even more south. Yeah. I mean, if you know, non profit, constant worry about howto make the most value of the dollar and how to keep the dollar stretching further and further. And ah, you know, you have this massive audience who has come to you who’s a non profit. Who said to you, You know we want to help Here we are volunteering our help and just simply treating them with the thanks that they deserve. Not just a simple Hey, thanks for doing it. but actually reaching out, asking what they want, asking how they like to get their information. Things like that will greatly increase in donations as well as, um, making them go out and tell everyone how awesome you are, letting them to your PR for you. [00:09:17.54] spk_4:
And that’s what a zombie loyalist does. And this is for this. Could be donors could be volunteers in the organization who aren’t able to give a lot. But giving time is enormous, [00:09:30.38] spk_0:
and, you know, if they have such a great time doing it, he’ll bring friends. As as zombies. Do you know zombies have one purpose in life? Really? Zombies have one purpose in life that’s defeat. It doesn’t matter how the Mets are doing. It doesn’t matter, you know, chance that they lost anyway. But it doesn’t matter how how anyone’s doing. You know what’s going on in the world economy. It doesn’t matter. What matters with Zombie is where they get their next meal because they feed and they have to infect more people. Otherwise they will die Zombie loyalists of the same thing. All they have to do is make sure that their custom they tell the world we all have that friend who does it. You know that one friend eats nothing but the olive garden because Oh, my God, Is greatest breadsticks everywhere, you know? And they will drag your ass the olive garden every single time they get that chance. That’s a zombie, [00:10:04.54] spk_4:
loyalist. And you want them to do that for your non profit. And there’s a big advantage to being a smaller, smaller organization. You could be so much more high touching. We’re gonna talk about all that. We got the full hour with Peter Shankman. Gotta go away for a couple of minutes, stay with us. [00:10:54.79] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. The answer questions promptly End quote. And that is from an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Heavenly Hillsboro. That’s from a movie who can Ah, who can name that movie? Heavenly Hillsboro. Not to get off topic, though, but I just did. Do you need that kind of c p A support with clear directions and timetables. Easy to work with answer questions promptly. Professional and thorough. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to Zombie loyalists [00:10:59.87] spk_4:
Peter, it doesn’t take much Thio stand out in the customer service world does it [00:11:09.02] spk_0:
really doesn’t, you know. And the reason for that is because we expect to be treated like crap. You know, I love this example. Whenever I gave speeches, I asked, I asked you in the audience, Who here has had a great flight recently, like at least one personal raise their hand. Okay, what made it great and without fail there. And, well, we took off on time and and I had the seat I was assigned, and we landed on time and like so you paid for a service. They delivered that service and you are over the freaking moon about it, like that’s the state that we’ve become. You know, that’s how bad customer service has been that you are just beyond thrilled that they did exactly what they said they were gonna do it. Nothing more. [00:11:37.94] spk_4:
Less than 20 minutes in the post office line exam, and I’m ecstatic [00:12:12.47] spk_0:
exactly. You know, it’s so we really are at a point where we only have to be one level above crap. I’m not even asking my client to be good. Just one level of crap. You know, if everyone else is crapping your one level above that, you’re gonna win. It’s my favorite. My favorite joke. Some the two guys were out in the woods hunting in the woods in the or just jog. It was the 1st 1 sees Ah, bear. And they see this barren bears raised up is about to strike, and the 1st 1 reaches down and tightens up his laces on his running shoes and the studio. Don’t be community. You can’t outrun a bear and just kind of need to understand how wrong. You know, I love that joke because it’s it’s so true. That’s the concept. You know, all you have to do is be just a little bit better than everyone else, and you’ll win the whole ball game. [00:12:24.54] spk_4:
Now we have to set some things up internally in orderto have the structure in place to create the zombie loyalists. [00:15:46.52] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you have a You have a ah company where the majority of people in your company are afraid to do anything outside the norm. You know, I mean, look at look at a cell phone company. You know, you call them. Could you have a problem, right? 18 T or T mobile? You call them that? Your problem? They’re actually the customer service will handle your caller. Actually judged and rewarded based on how quickly they can get you off the phone, Not on whether or not they fix your problem. How fast that how fast they can get you off the phone. Which means how many more calls again? Remember, I worked when I worked in America Online. We all had to do a day of customer service every month just to see what it was like. That was a brilliant idea. But you know, again, it says it was a system called Vantive for you to sign on and assumes you signed on. If you weren’t in a call, you know, that was tacked against you. If you’re in a call and it went over a certain amount of time, that was tacked against you. So the decks were stacked. Not in the favor. The customer. There are some companies out there who allow their customer service employees to simply be smarter about what they dio and do whatever it is they need to do to fix the problem. Um, you know, my favorite story about this Verizon Wireless I went overseas was in Dubai, and I landed to buy, and I turned my phone had gotten global roaming on my phone. Which 20 bucks for every 100 megabytes. Okay, so I land and I turn on my phone and it says, um, before I’m even off the plane, I get a text that you’ve used $200 in roaming charges. What the hell? You know, $300 by talking about the plan, wegner, Something’s up here. So I called Arise and a nice guy answer the phone. Oh, yeah. I mean, the first thing that was Yes, sir. You do have global roaming, but it doesn’t work in Dubai. Okay, well, that’s not really global. That’s more hemispherical Roaming, I think is the issue. And so he said, Well, look, I’m gonna be here for a week. I said, you know what? You have my credit card on file, Bill me like, I don’t even like 1000 bucks and let me have the phone for, like, a week and, you know, that, you know, 500 bucks and I’ll go over to gigs would just do something for me. Sorry, sir. I’m not authorized to do that. You can look. So what do I have? Well, you can pay $20.48 a megabyte. I’m like, I’m sorry. Seriously. Which equates essentially to be charged 2048 seconds. 3048 cents. For every I think the times for every four seconds of the video Gangnam style if I decided to watch my phone like this is pretty ridiculous. So I simply hung up, hung up on your eyes, and I went down the street to the Dubai. The Mall of the Emirates, which is the largest mall in the world, has a freakin ski slope in it. And I’m not joking. And as a ski slope in this mall and went to one of the 86 different electronic stores in this mall bought an international unlocked version of the same exact cell phone I have went next door to the local sim card store, bought a SIM card that gave me 20 gigabytes of data at 1000 minutes of talk for $40 I then put that in my phone because I it’s an android phone. I simply typed in my user name and password for Google and everything imported. And Verizon did not get a penny on that trip. Um, how easy would have been from Horizon to say, Okay, you know what? We’ll cut your brake. They still make a lot of money off me. And I would tell the world how great Verizon was to work with and how wonderfully how helpful they were. Instead, they guaranteed that I will never They will never make a penny from any international trip. And I take, what, 15 of them a year. Because now my cell phone, um, by international cell phone that I bought all I do is pop out the SIM card in my land wherever I am putting a new SIM card. So [00:15:47.22] spk_4:
and you’re speaking and writing and telling bad [00:16:15.23] spk_0:
jokes and your eyes. And every time I tell the story about variety, I make it a little worse. Apparently, Verizon tests out the durability of their phone by throwing them kittens. Read this or not, but you know, the concept that all they had to do all the energy was in power Mark, and it wasn’t Mark’s fault. Mark was a really nice guy, but he was not allowed to do that. He would get fired if you try to do a deal like that for me. And so it’s this concept, you know. The [00:16:15.36] spk_6:
funny [00:16:15.56] spk_0:
thing is, it comes down If you [00:16:16.82] spk_6:
really [00:16:50.24] spk_0:
want to go go down the road in terms of a public company like Verizon of where the issue is, you could even trace it to fiduciary responsibility because the fiduciary responsibility of any company CEO all the way down to the employee is to make money for the shareholders. Future responsibility means by not allowing me, they don’t allow in. Mark the customer service agent to to help me on and take a different tack is actually losing money. Too many CEOs think about the next quarter. Oh, we have to make our numbers this quarter. I’m fired companies in other countries to nothing with next quarter century, and they make a much bigger difference because the thing okay, what can we do now? That will have impact in the next 5 10 15 years, you know, and really implement the revenue that we have and an augment and companies Americans don’t know nothing about them. That’s a big problem. [00:17:15.80] spk_4:
I’d buy a product line that has a lot of natural and recycled materials. Seventh generation and their, um, their tagline is that in our every decision, we must consider the impact on the next seven generations. It comes from an American Indian. [00:17:21.38] spk_0:
It’s great. It’s a great line. I mean, just thinking about how much money would have made for me in the past three years over just just in my [00:17:27.31] spk_4:
overseas, you’d be telling a story about like them about Morten like the one [00:17:54.51] spk_0:
about a lot of people listen to me and they wegner for a time when you Googled roaming charges variety, wegner, Google Horizon, Roaming charges. My story about how I saved all this money really came up first because I did the math. And if I had not called Mark and bought my own cell phone and done this, I would have come home to a $31,000 cell phone bill and you damn over rising one damn thing about that up to bad. Sorry about the fine print [00:17:56.40] spk_4:
and plus the employee who sold you the quote. International plan, right? I’m sure you told her. No way. I’m [00:18:03.56] spk_0:
going to Canada and they’re going to buy. I’m assuming she didn’t know where to buy was she thought it was near Canada, but yeah, [00:18:09.37] spk_4:
long story short. I couldn’t use it. All right, So employees have to be empowered. There’s to be. We have to be changing a thinking to the customer has to come first. The donor of the volunteer [00:19:40.75] spk_0:
don’t volunteer, you get at the end of the day, where’s your money coming from? Look, if you’re not profit our Fortune 100 where’s the money coming from? You know, And if you we see it happening over and over again. We’re seeing what you’re seeing right now. Play out every single day with company uber uber. It’s so funny cause uber makes you know the value of $40 billion right now. But that doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean anything. If people are running away in droves, which people are, there’s a whole delete your uber app movement hard. Oh God. Yet people are living. What’s the problem? Well, it’s several number one that uber is run by a bunch of guys who honor the bro code. The company was actually started by a guy who, in on business in business, insider said he started the company, get laid. His goal was to always a black car when he was leaving a restaurant to impress the girl he was with that he came out and said that And you see that culture run rampant throughout uber from their God mode, where they can see they actually create. There was, Ah, read this amendment visited center as well that they created a hookup page that showed or, ah, walk of shame Page that showed where women were leaving certain apartments like on weekends. And we’re leaving certain place on weekends, going back to their home. It was obvious that they, you know, some guy and I think they did that. And of course, just there their whole surge pricing mentality, which is, you know, two days ago there was, ah, a couple of the terrorists of the biggest Harris attacking in Sydney at that at that bakery, and Sydney Uber and Sydney instituted surge pricing for people trying to get out of harm’s way, you know, and and they later refund it. [00:19:48.41] spk_6:
Oh, it was a computer [00:20:07.46] spk_0:
glitch. You know, I’m sorry. You have a stop button. And you can when you see something happening like that, there has to be someone in the office. You know what? Not cool. We’re gonna take care of that and hit the stop button. And it was yet bad. Tons and tons and tons of bad publicity. You know, I was having an argument with one of my facebook page facebook dot com slash peter Shankman Because they said, Oh, you know, So what they don’t They don’t turn surge pricing don’t have enough cabs. They’re, you know, people can’t get home. I said, I’m pretty sure that the on Lee come, but I’m sure that no one had cab companies that I’m sure that there wasn’t anyone who had enough cars. They’re private cabs, uber’s whatever. Yet the Onley stories I read about cos screwing up during the event where uber not Joe’s Sydney cab company. You know, I didn’t see him screwing up because he didn’t turn on surge pricing. You gotta You gotta respect your customer after, [00:20:40.16] spk_4:
as we’re ah training for that, then not only trying to change that mind ships well in in trying to change that mindset, rewards for custom for employees that do take, go to go the extra [00:21:01.89] spk_0:
mile Well, first of all, if you give the employees the ability to do it to go the extra mile and understand they won’t get fired, you’re not gonna get in. Try always to tell every one of my employees you never get in trouble for spending a little extra money to try and keep a customer happy. You’ll get fired for not doing it. You know you’re fired for, not for seeing an opportunity to fix someone and not taking [00:21:06.61] spk_4:
not doing everything that you could [00:21:44.36] spk_0:
know. Ritz Carlton is famous for its current hires people not because whether they could fool the bed sheet but for how well they understand people. Because in Ritz Carlton’s mind, it’s much more important to be a people person and be able to be empathetic, and that it’s such a key word. Empathy is just so so sorely lacking. You know how many have called customer service? Yeah, you know, I have to have to change my flight. Might my My aunt just died. I really D’oh! Okay, great. That’s $200. I just want to go now. Earlier, You know, you show up at the airport, your bag is overweight by half a pound. That’s $25. I just can you just cut me some slack note. So empathy and giving the custard, giving the employees the ability to understand that the customer that sometimes you can make exceptions and it is okay to make changes. [00:21:51.27] spk_4:
And this is where a smaller organization [00:21:53.57] spk_6:
has huge advantage. It’s easier to change. [00:22:01.54] spk_0:
That’s what kills me. You know, I go to these try to frequent small businesses when I can. I get you something small businesses and they won’t they act like large businesses, you know, in the respect that they [00:22:06.46] spk_6:
don’t have. [00:22:06.91] spk_4:
Ah, they want to be respected almost [00:22:46.53] spk_0:
don’t have, like, a 6 6000 page code that they have to adhere to. They can simply, uh, do something on the fly. And yet, for whatever reason, they won’t do it. And it’s the most frustrating things. And look, guys, you’re acting like a big your act like Mega Lo Mart here, you know, and you’re not Mega Lo Mart, and you’re just Joe’s House of Stationary whatever it is and, you know, not be able to help me. You’re pretty much killing yourself because you don’t have 85 billion customers that come to the door after me, you know? But I have a pretty big network. And for a small business, two get killed socially, as social becomes more and more what? How we communicate, You know, it’s just craziness. [00:22:56.18] spk_4:
You know, we’re pretty much in a world, I think, where something almost hasn’t happened to you. Unless unless you share [00:23:41.18] spk_0:
it e joke that, you know, if I can take a selfie. Was I really there? Um but it’s true, You know, we do live in a world where, you know, I remember God 10 years ago. Maybe not even not even 10 years ago. I was one of the first people have a phone in my camera, you know, And it was like, 24. That’s why you can ring my phone. Right? And it was like a I think a 0.8 megapixels. You know, it looked like I was taking a picture with a potato, but it was It was this. I remember it was 2002 and I was in Chase Bank and there was a woman arguing with the teller and I pulled out my video. You know, it was the crappiest video you ever seen. I pulled it out and I said, You know, I started recording and the woman behind the cat woman, the kind I was doing The woman behind the counter was talking to the customs, saying, You do not speak to me that way. You get out of this bank right now and the country was saying, I just wanted my balance, and you and your manager comes over. I [00:23:54.71] spk_6:
get this whole thing [00:23:55.15] spk_0:
on my little crappy three g Motorola folk phone, and I remember I posted online and Gawker picks it up. I gave him E mail. The headline I put on my block was, you know, chase where the right relationship is at. Go out yourself, you know? And it was It just got tons of play and the Gawker picked it up. It went everywhere, totally viral. So [00:24:11.97] spk_6:
it’s one of those things here, just like, you know, this is in [00:25:02.50] spk_0:
2002. It’s 12 years later. How the hell can you assume that nothing is being that you’re not being recorded. You know, I I ever blowing I sneezed a couple weeks ago and, uh ah, not to get too graphic here, but I needed a tissue big time after I was done season. I remember going through my pockets looking for desperate, looking for tissue, looking around, making sure it wasn’t on camera somewhere that someone didn’t grab that for the next viral sensation. You know, I got I went to high school with a block from here, right? If the amount of cameras that are in Lincoln Center today were there in 1989 90 90 be having this conversation entirely, I’d be having a conversation behind bulletproof for myself. Yeah, so you know, you’d be you’d be talking to. You have to get special clearance to visit me probie at the Super Max in Colorado. It’s one of those things that you just like. My kid, who’s who’s almost two years old now is gonna grow up with absolutely no expectation of privacy the same way that we grew up with an expectation of privacy. And I’m thankful for that because she will make a lot less stupid moves, you know? I mean God, The things that I thought, you know, in in high school I thought [00:25:18.88] spk_6:
the stupid isn’t the [00:25:24.18] spk_0:
world. Thank God there wasn’t a way for me to broadcast that to the world in real time. Thank God [00:25:32.01] spk_4:
creating these zombie loyalists. And we’ve got to change some. We gotta change culture and thinking and reward systems. Let’s go back to the cost of all this. Why is this a better investment than trying to just focus on new donors? [00:25:39.30] spk_0:
I I love this analogy and give your fun analogy lets [00:25:42.56] spk_6:
him [00:26:18.95] spk_0:
in a bar. And there’s a very cute girl across the across the park and catch my eye catcher. I go up to a go. You know, you don’t know me. I’m amazing in bed. You should finish your drink right now. Come home. Let’s get it on. I’m gonna impress. I’m that good Chancellor should get throw a drink in my face. Go back talking to her friends. I’ve done a lot of research on this. That’s probably now let’s assume let’s assume an alternate world. I’m sitting there on my phone. I’m just playing like, you know, some no boards are frantically and she’s over there talking to friends, one of her friends. Holy crap, That’s [00:26:19.53] spk_6:
Peter Peter Shankman. I’ve heard him speak. He’s in this [00:26:22.95] spk_0:
fantasy world. I’m single, too. [00:26:27.13] spk_6:
He I think he’s single and he’s having the amazing guy I know. He has a cat you ever get. You should totally go talk to [00:26:48.71] spk_0:
him the very least. I’m getting this girl’s number. That’s PR, Okay. And what do we trust? More me with my fancy suit collar going over the seventies. Leaders in Hi, I’m amazing. Or the girl saying, Hey, we’ve been friends since their grade. I’m recommending that guy. You should trust me on this. Obviously, that that’s where good customer service comes into play. And that’s where corporate culture comes into play. Because if I have a great experience with you and at your company, I’m gonna tell my friend when they’re looking and I will stake my personal reputation. And there’s nothing stronger [00:26:58.24] spk_4:
than that. And these are the people who want to breed as his eyes [00:27:00.65] spk_0:
are stronger than advertising stronger the marketing [00:27:03.15] spk_4:
and they’re gonna share. People want to share [00:27:10.38] spk_0:
that. Think about the Internet runs on two things. It runs on drama, drama and bragging bragging and drama. And if you if you need any proof of that, you go and look at all the hashtags with crap that’s happened, you know, bad customer service, bad, whatever. But [00:27:19.84] spk_6:
then look at all [00:27:28.34] spk_0:
the good hash tags. You know, when our flight’s delayed for three hours and we lose our seat Oh, my God. I hate this airline. The worst A line ever. But when we get upgraded right hashtag [00:27:29.24] spk_6:
first class bitches or [00:27:30.13] spk_0:
whatever it is, you know, like that [00:27:31.80] spk_6:
on the whole, because we love to [00:27:33.27] spk_0:
share its on Lee a great experience if we could tell the world. And it’s only a bad experience if we could make everyone else miserable about it as well. [00:29:23.57] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits, that means for you that it has what nonprofits need, what you’re looking for. Like fund accounting. Critical. Um, no more spreadsheets for your restricted funds. Fraud prevention, outstanding customer service. You will get a free 60 day trial on a listener landing page at now. It’s time for tony steak too. And I thank you for all your support in 2019 as we wind the year down. Um, lots of listeners. Grateful. Grateful for all the 13,000 plus listeners week after week. Um, those podcast listeners. Thank you so much. If you listen live. I’m grateful to you. You know, I’m always sending the live love as well as the podcast. Pleasantries, Of course. Thank you. Uh, even when there’s just six or eight or 10 people listening live, it gives me energy. I love knowing that there are a couple of people scattered throughout the world. Doesn’t matter, really? Doesn’t matter. Listening live. I’m grateful for that. Thank you. Tuning in life. Um, and maybe there are other ways that we’re connected. If it’s ah, through the Facebook page. Twitter, um, linked in. Nah, there’s not too much unlinked in too much activity on linked in some. But however it is you’re connected. Oh, the inbox. If you’re getting the insider alerts, thank you for that. Every Thursday. Getting those. Thank you. However, it is your with non profit radio supporting non profit radio. I thank you very much. And that is Tony’s Take two. Let’s continue with Peter Shankman and Zombie loyalists. [00:29:33.82] spk_4:
Peter, you have a golden rule of social media that that a good number of customers like to share and people are gonna keep doing [00:30:18.21] spk_0:
it. People will always share. Um, again, it goes back to the concept that if you create great stuff, people want to share it because people like to be associated with good things. If you create bad stuff and my stuff, I could meet. I mean anything from, like, a bad experience, too, that content people not only won’t share that, but we go out of their way to tell people how terrible you are. Yeah, um, you know, how many times have you seen companies fail horribly? Uh, you know, after major disasters when companies were tweeting, um, you know, completely unrelated things after after random school shooting? No, it was after the shooting at the theater in Aurora, Colorado. The Dark knight, the tweets. [00:30:19.13] spk_6:
Hey, shooter’s, what’s your plans for this [00:31:12.47] spk_0:
weekend? You know, and I’m just going, really, you know, But of course, the thing was, the thing was retweeted millions of times, you know, with a sort of shame on the way. So wait, We’re society. Like I said earlier, that loves to share. When, When great things happen to us but loves to tell the world when we’re miserable, because we’re only truly miserable when you make everyone else miserable. Um, it’s funny, you mentioned, Ah, generosity. Siri’s the one of my favorite stories, which goes to sort of a bigger picture of culture and somehow when you’re just doing your job, because that’s what you’re supposed to do your job. But you don’t realize there are ways to get around that. I I listened to your podcast, among others, when I’m running through Central Park on Dhe, more like if you know my body type more like lumbering through Central Park. But I get there. I’m an iron man, I have that. And, ah, so I go to Central Park and it’s super early in the morning cause I usually have meetings and I don’t run fast. I run like I really don’t run fast, but But as I’m running, [00:31:16.56] spk_4:
but let’s give you the credit that you have done a bunch of iron Man, [00:33:02.26] spk_0:
I have try. I do. I do it, you know. My mother tells me that I just have very poor judgment in terms of what sports I should do But, um, on the flip side, I’m also a skydiver, which is with my weight is awesome. I fall better than anyone, but so I’m running through Central Park. Last year it was February, February of 13 and 14 of this year. And, um, it was around 4 45 in the morning because I had a Canadian meeting and have you 10 miles. So four foot of the morning running about, but hopping around 1979 88th Street on the east side in the park and a cop pulls me over. And what you doing? Look at him. You know, I’m wearing black spandex. I have had it’s five degrees. I don’t want you playing checkers, you know, like I’m running and it’s like, Okay, can you stop running? I’m like, OK, does that give the park’s closed? No, it’s not. Look, I’m in it. Look around. There are other people who know part doesn’t open this exam like he’s ago. Would you have any idea? And you’re like, No, I’m running because what you name, I’m like, seriously, I’m writing you a summit. I’m like you ready? Made some. It’s for exercising. I just want to clarify that you’re writing. And sure enough, the guy wrote me a summons for exercising in Central Park before it opened. The charge was breaking the violating curfew. You know, I’m like I get the concept. The curfew is to keep people out after 2 a.m. It’s not to prevent them going in early to exercise, to be healthy. I’m like, I’m not carrying a six pack. I’m not drinking a big gulp. I’m not smoking. I mean, I’m doing something healthy, and you’re writing me a summons for it. Um, I said I’m gonna have a field day with this. I said I have some fathers. This will be a lot of fun. I’m not. You know, you’re just doing your job Serve even though you have the discretion not to. But Okay, so I go back home, take a picture of me, take it, e mail it to a friend of mine in New York Post front page New York Post next day. No running from this ticket. York Times covered it. Runner’s world covered. I mean, I went everywhere. Gawker covered it, you know? And my [00:33:06.66] spk_6:
whole thing was [00:33:10.15] spk_0:
just like, Dude, you have discretion. Look, at me. You know, I’m not. [00:33:10.85] spk_6:
I’m not even going super fast, for God’s sake. [00:33:13.39] spk_0:
I’m just just trying to exercise here, you know? And [00:33:16.08] spk_6:
of course, I went [00:33:16.47] spk_0:
to court, and I beat it. But how [00:33:18.25] spk_6:
much money [00:33:21.19] spk_0:
they cost the city for me to go to court fight this thing. You know, every employee you have to give your employees the power of discretion. The power of empathy to make their own decisions. If you go by the book, bad things will happen. [00:33:28.71] spk_4:
And again, small shops. So much easier to do. Yep. Flatline flat organizations. [00:33:58.10] spk_0:
I worked with a nonprofit animal rescue non profit. A friend of mine was a skydiver and shut him out. I can’t, but But there’s a friend of mine, Scott, ever. And she was killed in a base jump several years ago, and her husband asked to donate her memory to this non profit. So I set him a check, and about three months later, I get a coffee table book of mail and I was living by myself. The time I didn’t own a coffee table. It was, you know, more money to spend on my flat screen. And I remember I call I look at this coffee table guy throw I throw in the corner. I look at it over next couple days. It pisses me off on how much How much of my donation did it cost to print? Melon produced this book to me, and so I called them up. Well, sure. We believe most of our donors are older, and I prefer to get a print version as opposed to, like digital. You know where they throw it away, Like you don’t traditionally, but Okay, um, I’m like, So So you’ve asked your you’ve done surveys in. You’ve asked, You [00:34:23.15] spk_6:
know, we just assume the [00:35:03.43] spk_0:
most number older. I’m like, Okay, I open my mouth lineup joining the board and spent the next year interviewing customers, interviewing every current and past donor about how they like to get their information and shock of shocks. 94% said online. And so over the following year, we launched Facebook page, Twitter page. Um uh flicker account, YouTube, everything. PS the following year for that, donations went up 37% in one year in that economies, right ran away tonight. Donations went up 37% in one year, and they saved over $500,000 in printing mammalian reproduction. Imagine going to your boss, boss. Revenues up 37%. And we saved 1/2 $1,000,000 in Boston about your really good beer. You know, all they had to do was listen to their audience, be relevant to the audience you have, and they will tell you what they [00:35:09.51] spk_4:
want. We have tons of tools for segment. [00:35:11.34] spk_0:
Oh, my God. [00:35:11.93] spk_4:
You gotta listen to what segment you want. People want to be. [00:35:31.37] spk_0:
You know, someone someone asked me today. You know what? What’s the best way? I knew nothing about their company. What’s the best social media outlet for me to be on? Should be on Twitter ship on Facebook, I said, I’ll answer that question. If you can answer this This this question to ask you is my favorite type of cheese Gouda or the number six. I understand that’s not a real question. Look, neither is yours like I can’t tell you where the best place to be your audience can. I said, Go ask your audience. Believe me, they will tell you there’s a gas station. The Midwest come and go. I love the name K u M and G O. And there, Tad, [00:35:47.60] spk_4:
you can read more about [00:35:48.35] spk_0:
the tagline is always something extra. I [00:35:51.22] spk_6:
mean, come on, the jokes just [00:35:52.39] spk_0:
right sells for God’s sake. But [00:35:54.88] spk_6:
then I’ll take themselves too seriously, that ghost knowing the name of [00:36:06.27] spk_0:
the company gas station. And I remember there in Iowa and I went to visit a friend and I went I was like, You’ve got to get a photo of you in front of coming goes And the [00:36:08.77] spk_6:
beauty of this is that some of their employees [00:36:09.59] spk_0:
actually look at their customers when they’re on their phones. In the stores [00:36:13.27] spk_6:
go. You know what you use Twitter or Facebook? [00:36:15.25] spk_0:
And they say, [00:36:19.93] spk_6:
Oh, you and the record that information and they know it. Customers will give you so much info if you just ask them, because then they feel [00:36:42.42] spk_0:
invested. They feel invest in your company. They feel like they that you took the time to listen to their non profit requests or their their their questions. And they feel like they’re radio for Harrow. Every month we have a one question Harrow survey, you know, heroin question survey, and it would get like 1000 people respond. I’d spend the entire weekend emailing Everyone responded, thanking them personally and took my entire weekend. But it was great because I would wind up happening. Is that you know, if we took their advice and launch it on Monday with the new thing? [00:36:45.69] spk_6:
Oh, my God. How did this They took my advice? [00:36:48.15] spk_0:
Yeah, was your advice to 800 other people Advice. But we [00:36:51.82] spk_6:
took it and it just [00:36:52.67] spk_0:
It just made them so much more loyal. And they tell hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people we get in. There were days. I got three days where I was in Temple one morning, the Garment Center synagogue and my phone. I feel like phone getting really hot in my pocket, which is not normal. And I start hurting. I look at it. It almost fired. It had frozen because we were mentioned in Seth Gordon’s morning blogged, and at that time, I was getting emails. Every time we get a new subscriber and the phone actually frozen and was locked and and was like overheating, I t at the battery and reset the entire phone because we’ve got so many new 14,000 subscribers in, like, three hours. [00:37:26.40] spk_4:
I’ve seen some scene you say. Excuse me? You say that customer service is the new advertising, marketing and PR. Yeah, it [00:37:59.32] spk_0:
really is. Well again. You know, if we’re moving into that world where so imagine a lava lamp. And I love that. I can use this now. Imagine a lava lamp. A lava lamp has water, oil and a heat source. Right. Heat source heats the oil. The oil flows with water. It makes pretty colors. I’ve heard it looks really good when you’re high. Now I’ve heard. Now imagine if crystals imagine if you’re, uh, everyone you meet in your network, okay? Is a drop of oil. The water is your network. And [00:38:00.84] spk_6:
what is your world? Everyone you meet in your [00:38:19.92] spk_0:
network from from the guy you’re sitting doing the radio interview with to the guy who serves you ice creams, local deli to the guy who does your dry cleaning to your girlfriend to your wife to not same time to your kids. Second grade teacher to your second grade teacher years ago. Everyone you meet is in your network, You know, right now, when Facebook first started I would see the same weight [00:38:26.85] spk_4:
from a kid. I was in high school, his post with the same weight as like my current girlfriend, which is ridiculous. I don’t need to know about everything. [00:38:55.92] spk_0:
My friend from junior high school’s doing even talking kid In 15 years, Facebook’s getting a lot smarter as Google. Now I see the people I communicate with the most okay, and if I if I reach out and connect with new people, they start rising in my feet and my stream. If I don’t they fall. It’s just like a lava lamp. Every person you connect with is a drop of oil. That heat source at the bottom that’s rising. Raising or lowering those drops of oil is relevance. So imagine the heat sources relevance. And the more I interact with someone, the more the higher they go [00:38:56.87] spk_4:
in my network in the more I see of them, the more trust level [00:38:58.84] spk_0:
there is. When I’m at a bar and I meet someone in a restaurant or conference, I meet someone. I don’t need [00:39:05.32] spk_4:
to connect them. I don’t need to go on Facebook. Friend request [00:39:08.37] spk_6:
that, you know, awkward [00:39:09.04] spk_0:
friend requesting is when you stop to think that last [00:39:10.41] spk_6:
time my [00:39:10.56] spk_0:
friend requested some of the real world was second grade. Will you be my friend? My daughter’s doing that because, you know, it’s like [00:39:15.91] spk_6:
cat Will you be my [00:39:16.85] spk_0:
friend? Kind of. The captain will be here, [00:39:20.10] spk_6:
but you know, it’s this awkward thing. Who the hell friend Request someone. If I hang out with [00:40:09.71] spk_0:
you the bar and we connect again and we talk and we go out of dinner and we’re having a good time. We’re friends. I don’t need to first request that you, you know, that’s going away. Friending following liking and fanning is all going away. What will interact is the actual connection. So if I meet with you and I have a good time with you and we talk again if I use your business, if I go to your non profit, if I donate, if I volunteer, whatever network knows that the more I do that, the more interact with you. The more you have the right to market to me and the more you will be at the top of my stream in the more I will see information about you, the less I will have Thio search for you. But if you do something stupid or we’re no longer friends Yeah, you’re gonna fade. I don’t unfriend. You just disappear. Unfriending is also awkward. I dated a woman. We broke up. It was nine months after we broke up. Neither of us want friend, the other one, because it’s just awkward. I woke up in front of me, but you know the concept of not having to do that of just, you know? Okay, I haven’t talked in a while. I don’t see [00:40:25.45] spk_4:
your post anymore. It’s the real world. And if you’re not feeding zombie loyalists, they can start to defect. No question about it. I want to spend a little time on. If you’re not talking to them, giving them what they want, [00:40:27.55] spk_0:
talking about their information, helping them out, they will gladly go somewhere else to someone who is. You know, if I have a great experience of the restaurant every week for three years and then [00:40:37.25] spk_6:
all of a sudden overtime, [00:40:37.67] spk_4:
I’m noticing less unless that restaurant’s doing less and less [00:40:49.65] spk_0:
to ah, take care of me, you know, and maybe management’s change. And I don’t feel that you know I’m ripe for being infected by another company. I’m right for someone else to come. You know, Peter, because if I tweet something Wow, I can’t believe I have to wait 40 minutes for a table that didn’t used to be like that. If if someone else is smart restaurant, they’re following me, and they’re gonna great. You [00:40:57.17] spk_6:
know, if there’s no Wait, no, wait over here. Why don’t you come to black storms [00:40:59.58] spk_4:
will give you a free [00:41:04.21] spk_0:
drink, you know, you know, and that right there, that’s first sign of infection. And I might become infected by another by another company becomes on the little us [00:41:34.71] spk_4:
for them. And so let’s take. You have a lot of good examples. Let’s take a one on one situation. How can we start to cure that? The simple act of realizing following your customer’s understanding when they’re not happy on fixing the situation before it escalates, you can contain a small outbreak, a small outbreaks, well, viral outbreak. You can contain that by getting the right people finding out what the problem is getting into one room, fixing their problem, healing them. You have a good united story right back When was Continental? [00:41:51.51] spk_0:
I was, Ah, frequent flier and booked a trip to Paris on Dhe was very angry because they charged me $400 looking for you. I remember what it was. And, uh, I call the CEO. I just just for the hell of it. I’m like, I’m [00:41:54.09] spk_6:
gonna I wrote a letter and email before Social, right? Ryan e mailed the CEO like this. Ridiculous. I’m free, [00:42:33.06] spk_0:
like, 30 minutes on my phone rings. Hello, Peter, Please hold for Larry Kellman, CEO of Coming little. And I’m like, Oh, crap, you know, and get on the phone. He’s like, Peter, I did. Miss Jackman radio started these fees of their new um, we sent that note. I’m getting it and see it. We’re gonna wave them for you, But you have any more problems, you know, feel free to call me and I end up the phones the next 40 minutes, sort of staring at it like holy crab Larry killed on the CEO of United Airlines just called me and, uh, talk to me, and it was like it was like God coming down and say you now have the power to levitate your cat. It was just ridiculous. And so, you know, I have been faithful to Continental and now united ever since. On Dhe. They continue to treat me with respect and do great things, and they’re [00:42:40.40] spk_6:
they’re improving. They were [00:42:41.25] spk_0:
getting a lot of crap over the past several years, and there really are starting to approve. It’s nice to see [00:42:45.01] spk_4:
and not only, of course, your own loyalty, but you’re [00:42:47.19] spk_0:
my God. I [00:42:47.98] spk_4:
was only loyalist for them and how many times how much it’s unquantifiable [00:42:52.59] spk_0:
attract so many friends to united. I’ve made so many friends. I mean, my father, you know, he only flashing at it now, which means he only drag. He dragged my mom on the Internet and I only drink my wife. You know, there’s a lot of lot of work that way. [00:43:10.40] spk_4:
We gotta go away for a couple of minutes when we come back. Of course, Peter and I are gonna keep talking about his book comes out in January. Zombie Loyalists, [00:43:37.94] spk_3:
Time for our last break. Ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them, turn to Communications can help do that for you. They are former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for zombie loyalists. [00:43:44.04] spk_4:
You have some examples of zombie loyalist leaving and mass like dominoes. Netflix. They’re both They’re both in the book. So if so one leaving if you know you’re gonna start the cure One leaving? [00:44:13.48] spk_0:
Yeah. And that’s the thing. You know, the little expand beauty, the Internet with the hashtag, everything like that. It doesn’t take a long time for those things. Just blow up in your face. And you know, the other day everyone’s a Twitter is responsible for us losing another non you’re responsible for using, you know, And if your product isn’t great and you’re your actions, don’t speak well of who you are. Then there’s no reason your customers should stay with you, you know? And it was l Social media is really hurting. I know you’re hurting yourself. The only difference is that social media makes it easier for the world to know. [00:44:29.12] spk_4:
Yeah, they’re just telling the story. Dominoes and Netflix are good example because they they bounce back. They took responsibility and [00:45:01.77] spk_0:
they both owned the dominoes, came out and said, You know what? You’re right. Our pizza and we do have a problem. We’re gonna fix this and they spent millions fixing it. And sure enough, they’re back with a vengeance. Now, I may or may not even have ordered them around in a while, and I live in New York City. That’s that’s a That’s a sacrilege. But you know, I have the app on my phone from oversea. No traveling somewhere. I’ll be in Sheboygan or whatever. And you know what? Do you get it 11. 30 at night when you’re flights, Lady land Dhamma? Um, which reminds me I should probably flip side. Look at someone like Netflix. They also were screwed up. You know, they were losing that. Tried to switch between the two. They came up with a new name and it was so gross and public. Oh, man. Again, you’re watching the same thing happen with uber right now. Seems to be really interesting to see if they’re able to repair themselves. [00:45:16.67] spk_4:
Listening is important, but both those both those two examples, they listen to their customers. [00:45:21.49] spk_6:
Think there’s a [00:45:46.06] spk_0:
problem with listening because everyone’s been saying, Listen, listen, listen for months and years and years and years now, But, you know, no one ever says that you have to do more than just listen. Listen, actually follow up. Yeah, it’s one thing to listen. You know, I used to having my wife. I could sit there and listen to her for hours, you know? But I don’t actually say anything back. She’s just smack me, you know, and go to the other room. And so you really have to. It’s a two way street. Listening is great, but you respond. And look, I think it’s that further Twitter so great, because someone was complaining on Twitter and we went online. We we saw [00:45:49.60] spk_6:
the complaint that we fixed their problem and gazes. How about if the [00:46:17.14] spk_0:
problem don’t exist in the first place? You know, because the great thing about Twitter is that you have people complain on Twitter. The bad thing about it is there, complaining about you on Twitter. So it’s like, What if the problem didn’t exist in the first place? What if What if you empowered your front desk clerk to fix the problem so that I didn’t have to tweet hurts is my favorite story about all this, huh? I used to rent from Hertz religiously. Um, and then I went to Ah, Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport has passed April. And I gave it, was giving a speech and go, Oh, my name is supposed be on the board, you know, second car, and it [00:46:21.72] spk_6:
wasn’t Okay. [00:46:22.52] spk_0:
What happened? I got upstairs. I wait 40 minutes on the VP line. Um, after 40 minutes, they finally said, you know, there’s Ah, uh, only one guy here. A lot of people might have. Better chance we go to the regular line, okay. Probably told us that a little earlier. The regular and spend 45 minutes wait in the regular line. It’s now been. [00:46:39.15] spk_4:
Are you tweeting while this is happening? [00:47:15.85] spk_0:
Well, I didn’t know I was actually not only tweeting I had enough time to create a mean that should give you some idea of how long I was online with myself. I mean, I get it to the counter, how I can help you. Yeah, I was downstairs. The VP doesn’t tony. Oh, you’ll be a preservation room upstairs. Yeah. Okay. Let’s let’s put a pin in that. They just sent me up here, like right? They have to help you. Well, it’s not really They you guys for the same company. I mean, I could see the reservation on the screen. You you can help me. Sorry, sir. I can’t help. You have to be happy next. Like you just next to me. Okay, so if you know anything about Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix Um, all of the rental car coming through in the same place. Yeah. So I walked 50 feet. [00:47:18.81] spk_4:
It’s a bus. Takes you to the big the big A civilian. Where? The role. Next week [00:49:14.67] spk_0:
I walked 50 feet from the cesspool of filth in depravity That was hurts to the wonderful Zen Garden of Tranquility that was Avis. And in four minutes, I had a nicer, cheaper, more nicer, less expensive car given to a woman named Phyllis, who was 66 moved to Phoenix from Detroit with her husband for his asthma. I knew this because she told me. Um, she smiled at me. She brought her manager out and said, adds another refugee from Hertz and I said This happens a lot. They’re like, Yeah, I’m like, Wow, you think they have done something about it? And so on the way out in Avis, I thank them. I walked past hers. I shoot the casino, sort of. Look at the look of the beast. I get my Avis carnage at my hotel. I want to go to a hotel. I write a wonderful block post about my experience called Peter and hurts. And terrible. Horrible. No book could really bad customer experience. Do you have a kid? You find rewriting titles about your blood Post that you have to do with kids books. I do not like hurts, Sam. I am. And and, uh, I included in this block post the five things I’d rather do than ever, uh, rent from Hertz again. I think number three was It was Ah, ride a razor blade bust through a lemon juice waterfall. Um, with just, you know, and it’s a But of course, the next day hurts reaches out to me. J. Manuel is the head of North American customer service. That’s all you’re But I’m like, you know, we’d love to have up Nick. No, Like you’re not gonna fix the problem. Number 17 Avis car. I’m never going back to her. Number two through five people yesterday, five people interacted with all of whom had the chance to save me and keep me as a customer for life. A customer had been so happy, and I would have loved you. Five people blew it. So don’t waste your time trying to convert me back. You’re not going to. What you want to do is spend some of that energy retraining your staff to have empathy and to give them the ability and the empowerment to fix my problem when it happens. Because five people it takes every single employee to keep your company running. It takes one to kill it. Yeah, PS Avis reached out, um, to thank me personally. And ah, I am now just this ridiculously huge, loyal fan of Davis and always will be. [00:49:23.79] spk_6:
You have a pretty [00:49:28.14] spk_4:
touching story. But when you worked in a yogurt shop, you’re really young way. Have a couple minutes, tell it, tell it could stay. [00:49:38.48] spk_0:
That was in the east side. Which again is yet another reason why I live in the West Side. Nothing good ever happens on Manhattan’s East Side. So I was. I was working and I can’t believe it’s yogurt, which was a store that I think back in the I c B Y. No, no TCB. Why was the country’s best yogurt the country’s I C B I. Why was a poor I [00:49:49.81] spk_6:
can’t believe that you can Blame is [00:49:58.44] spk_0:
not your yogurt with a poor attempt to capitalize on his TV. But I’m working at this store and I go every day and make the offer to clean the floors. I do. [00:50:00.19] spk_6:
You know, a [00:50:19.94] spk_0:
typical high school job. And, uh, it was during this summer and houses of people walking by It was like Second Avenue or something. And there were these brass poles that hung from, you know, there was awning, right? It’s only that there were the brass poles that held the awning up and they were dirty as hell, right? I’m sure they’ve never been polished ever. And [00:50:20.09] spk_6:
I found I found some brass [00:50:21.29] spk_0:
polish in the back, all right, but in the back and went after anyone outside, and I’m positive polishing the polls. My logic was, if the polls are shiny and people saw them. Maybe they come into the store. Maybe they’d wanna, you know, buy more screenplays and the manager came out. [00:50:33.99] spk_6:
What the hell are you [00:50:35.48] spk_0:
doing? I told him what I thought. [00:50:36.78] spk_6:
I’d hate to think. Get inside. [00:50:38.56] spk_0:
You know, there’s no customers in there. Okay? I’ll make sure the yogurt still pumping it full blast. And I quit. I just quit that job. I mean, I couldn’t even begin to understand why someone would invest. I mean, t own a franchise, bring 50 grand to at least to buy that franchise. Why wouldn’t he invest in the two seconds it took a little elbow grease to make the posting That might bring in more customers. What the hell And you know, [00:51:01.06] spk_4:
But you’re not paid to think [00:51:11.06] spk_0:
you’re not paid to think my favorite line. Yeah, um, I just I encourage if any kids are listening to teenagers. If you if you boss says that to you, quit, quit. I will hire you. Just quit. It’s probably the worst thing in the world that you could possibly do because you have customers who you have customers who every day can be helped by people who are paid to think, and that’s the ones you want. Here. [00:51:22.03] spk_4:
We got to wrap up. Tell me what you love about the work you do. [00:51:57.46] spk_0:
I get paid to talk. I mean, my God, that’s the same stuff I used to get in trouble for in high school. But on a bigger picture, what I really love about it is being able to open someone’s eyes and haven’t come back to me. Um, I run a series of masterminds called shank Mines Business masterminds shank minds dot com their daylong seminars around the country. And I had someone come to meet, you know, I took your advice about X y Z, and I started listening a little more. And I just got the largest retainer client I’ve ever had in my life by a factor of four. She goes, and I just can’t even thank you. Never said gorgeous bottle of tequila can’t even thank you enough. Oh, my God. Being able to help people, you know, at the end of the day where I have yet to find another planet suitable for life, I’m looking. So we’re all in this together. And if that’s the case, you know, why wouldn’t we want to help people just little bit more. You know, there really isn’t a need to be, as do she is, as we are as a society, we could probably all be a little nicer to each other, and you’d be surprised. A little help. [00:52:15.83] spk_4:
The book is Zombie Loyalists, published by Pal Grave. McMillan comes out in January. You’ll find Peter at Shenkman dot com and on Twitter at Peter Shankman. Peter, Thank you so much. Pleasure [00:52:27.05] spk_0:
was mine. Thank you. [00:52:30.74] spk_3:
Next week I’m working on it. Trust me. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Math and software The Nolly Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Montaigne for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO [00:53:13.54] spk_2:
creative producers Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great
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Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non [00:00:36.83] spk_3:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d turn ex ophthalmic if I saw that you missed today’s show. Zombie Loyalists. Peter Shankman is a five times best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book, Zombie Loyalists, focuses on customer service, creating rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. This originally aired December 19th 2014. I like to play it once a year. It’s it’s really valuable. Great lessons in here on tony Stake to Thank You for 2019 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software, The Nolly Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here’s Zombie Loyalists [00:02:46.75] spk_4:
Peter Shankman is a well known and often quoted social media marketing and public relations strategist. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists. He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. He’s got super ideas and very valuable stories. I’m very glad Peter Shankman is with me in the studio. He’s the founder of Haro. Help, a reporter out connecting journalists with sources in under two years from starting it in his apartment. Horror was sending out 1500 media queries a week to more than 200,000 sources worldwide was acquired by Vocus in 2010. He’s the founder and CEO of the Geek Factory, a boutique social media, marketing and PR strategy firm in New York City. Peter is on NASA’s civilian Advisory Council. You’ll find him at Shenkman dot com, and he’s at Peter Shankman on Twitter. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists, using great service to create rabid fans. I’m very glad his book brings him to non profit radio and the studio Welcome, Peter. Good to be here, tony. Thanks Pleasure. U, um, live on the West side of Manhattan and you and you, there’s ah, there’s a pretty well known five star steakhouse. I’ll get Wolfgang’s not far from you, but you pass it to go to a different steakhouse. Direct Morton’s correct. Why is that [00:03:42.22] spk_0:
more. I am a zombie loyalist to Morton’s. What does that mean? I love the service, the attention to detail, the quality, the sort of where everyone knows my name mentality. When I walk into that Morton’s or any Mortons around the world, they have a tremendous custom relationship management system. When I call one number in New York or anywhere in the world, it they know who I am by my cell phone. And, uh, I’m treated with just, you know, phenomenal. Uh uh. Happiness toe here for me and my wishes were granted is aware. I know we have it, eh? Happy hour, Holiday party coming up at Morton’s next couple days. And, uh, you know, as always, I forgot to call and make a reservation. You know, I called and yesterday and said, Hey, I need a chance to get a reservation for seven people. Um, you know, there’s a night at, uh, 7 p.m. Which is, you know, the week of the holiday party. And they looked and they said, Oh, well, and then I guess their computer system kicked in. Of [00:03:50.26] spk_6:
course, Mr [00:04:34.44] spk_0:
Shankar, not a problem. I’ll get the Florida, you know, have it. We’ll have a great booth for you. That about, um, you know, and well, uh, tell us names. The people attending, you know, you know, you know, they’re gonna have specialized menus for them and their names on it. They really they have, ah, really high level of service that they provide, Not just to me. That’s the beauty of it. You know, it’s one thing for everybody. Yeah, it’s one thing if they just provided to me, but they do that for everyone. And, um, that is huge because, you know, being able to call when a normal person makes reservation. And not that I’m special. I’m actually rather abnormal. But when a normal person makes a reservation and says No, Martin says, Okay, greater you celebrating anything? So, yeah, it’s my wife’s birthday. That’s always after anyone. So you know what? It’s my wife’s birthday. Great. What’s her name? And her name’s Megan. Whatever. And you you go in and they and you sit down on the on the menu. It is Happy birthday. Make it. And then Megan, whoever she happens to be well, in the next 45 minutes, you know, taking 50 selfies with her menu and that’ll go online. And when her friends, you know, want that same experience, they’re gonna go. Morton’s [00:04:49.82] spk_4:
you say in the book, you get the customers you want by being beyond awesome to the customers you have. And that’s why I want to start with that Morton’s story, which is in the middle of the book. But they do it for everybody, and then they have the V. I. P. S as well. And there’s the terrific story of you tweeting tell that story. That’s a good story. [00:05:09.16] spk_6:
It’s a good [00:05:09.54] spk_0:
story. Stories. I was flying home from a day trip to Florida and was exhausted and starving and [00:05:15.98] spk_4:
they trip meeting. You’re flying down [00:05:48.08] spk_0:
down to 6 a.m. Lunch meeting flew back same day one of those one of those days, and I jokingly said, The tweet Hey, Morton’s, why don’t you meet me at Newark Airport when I land with a porterhouse in two hours? Ha ha ha ha ha. Um, you know, I said it the same way you’d say winter, Please stop snowing things like that. And I landed, uh, find my driver and said, Next, my driver is a is ah, waiter in a tuxedo with the Mortons bag. They saw my tweet. They put it together. They managed to bring me a ah, a steak and and, you know, as [00:05:48.25] spk_6:
great of a [00:07:24.94] spk_0:
story, is it is it that’s that’s It’s a great stunt and it’s a great story and it wasn’t staged. It was completely amazing. But you know, that’s not what they’re about. They’re not about delivering stakes to airports. They’re about making a great meal for you and treating you like world when you come in. And you know, if they just did that, if they just deliver the state of the airport but their quality and service sucked, you know, it wouldn’t be a story, you know, like they did for Peter. But, you know, my steak’s cold, you know? So what it really comes down to is the fact they do treat everyone like kings. And that’s that’s really, really important, because what winds up happening, you have a great experience of borns, and then you tell the world, you know Oh, yeah, great dinner last night. That was amazing. I would totally there again. And as we moved to this new world, where review sites are going away, and I don’t I don’t I need to go to yelp reviews and people I don’t know. You know, if they’re shills, whatever the case may be, I don’t know. Or trip Advisor. Same thing. I want people in my network quite trust and people in their network who they trust by default, I trust. So that’s gonna be that’s already happening automatically when I when I land in l. A and I type in steakhouse, Not me. I know I know where the steakhouse Donnelly, but if someone typed into Google Maps or Facebook Steak House in Los Angeles, you know they’ll see all the State Council’s on Google map. But if any of their friends have been to any of them, they’ll see those first. And if they had a good experience, only if the sentiment is positive, will they see those first. And that’s pretty amazing, because if you think about that, the simple act of tweeting at a photo Oh my God, thanks so much more to love this. That’s positive sentiment. That network knows that, And so if you’re looking for a steak house, you know, and your friend six months ago had that experience. Oh, my God. Amazing state. This is a great place. The sentiments will be there. And and And the network will know that network will show you that steakhouse because you trust [00:07:26.34] spk_4:
your friend. And this is where we start to cultivate zombie loyalists. Exactly. Is through this awesome customer service of the customers you have. Say more about something. [00:07:34.15] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you have so many companies out there who are trying to get the next greatest customer, You know, you see all the ads, the Facebook post. You know where 990 followers are? 10 are 1000. Follower gets a free gift. Well, that’s [00:07:48.17] spk_6:
current [00:07:55.66] spk_0:
saying, screw you to the original 990 followers who you had who were there since the beginning. We don’t care about you. We want that 1000. You know, that’s not cool. Um, the the companies who see their numbers rise and you see their fans increase in there. They’re, um um revenues go up. Are the ones who are nice to the customers they have. Hey, you know, customer 8 52 It was really nice of you to join us a couple months ago. How you know, how are you? We noticed that you posted on something about a, uh you know, your car broke down. Well, you know, we’re not in the car business, but, you know, you’re you’re two blocks from our our closest ah, outlet or whatever. And you know, once you if you need to come in, have a cup of coffee, will it use the phone? Whatever. You know, those little things that you could do that that really focusing the customers. You haven’t make the customers. You have the ones where the zombies who tell other customers have great your [00:08:36.38] spk_4:
And this all applies to non profit, certainly as well. [00:09:13.47] spk_0:
But even more south. Yeah. I mean, if you know, non profit, constant worry about howto make the most value of the dollar and how to keep the dollar stretching further and further. And ah, you know, you have this massive audience who has come to you who’s a non profit. Who said to you, You know we want to help Here we are volunteering our help and just simply treating them with the thanks that they deserve. Not just a simple Hey, thanks for doing it. but actually reaching out, asking what they want, asking how they like to get their information. Things like that will greatly increase in donations as well as, um, making them go out and tell everyone how awesome you are, letting them to your PR for you. [00:09:17.54] spk_4:
And that’s what a zombie loyalist does. And this is for this. Could be donors could be volunteers in the organization who aren’t able to give a lot. But giving time is enormous, [00:09:30.38] spk_0:
and, you know, if they have such a great time doing it, he’ll bring friends. As as zombies. Do you know zombies have one purpose in life? Really? Zombies have one purpose in life that’s defeat. It doesn’t matter how the Mets are doing. It doesn’t matter, you know, chance that they lost anyway. But it doesn’t matter how how anyone’s doing. You know what’s going on in the world economy. It doesn’t matter. What matters with Zombie is where they get their next meal because they feed and they have to infect more people. Otherwise they will die Zombie loyalists of the same thing. All they have to do is make sure that their custom they tell the world we all have that friend who does it. You know that one friend eats nothing but the olive garden because Oh, my God, Is greatest breadsticks everywhere, you know? And they will drag your ass the olive garden every single time they get that chance. That’s a zombie, [00:10:04.54] spk_4:
loyalist. And you want them to do that for your non profit. And there’s a big advantage to being a smaller, smaller organization. You could be so much more high touching. We’re gonna talk about all that. We got the full hour with Peter Shankman. Gotta go away for a couple of minutes, stay with us. [00:10:54.79] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. The answer questions promptly End quote. And that is from an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Heavenly Hillsboro. That’s from a movie who can Ah, who can name that movie? Heavenly Hillsboro. Not to get off topic, though, but I just did. Do you need that kind of c p A support with clear directions and timetables. Easy to work with answer questions promptly. Professional and thorough. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to Zombie loyalists [00:10:59.87] spk_4:
Peter, it doesn’t take much Thio stand out in the customer service world does it [00:11:09.02] spk_0:
really doesn’t, you know. And the reason for that is because we expect to be treated like crap. You know, I love this example. Whenever I gave speeches, I asked, I asked you in the audience, Who here has had a great flight recently, like at least one personal raise their hand. Okay, what made it great and without fail there. And, well, we took off on time and and I had the seat I was assigned, and we landed on time and like so you paid for a service. They delivered that service and you are over the freaking moon about it, like that’s the state that we’ve become. You know, that’s how bad customer service has been that you are just beyond thrilled that they did exactly what they said they were gonna do it. Nothing more. [00:11:37.94] spk_4:
Less than 20 minutes in the post office line exam, and I’m ecstatic [00:12:12.47] spk_0:
exactly. You know, it’s so we really are at a point where we only have to be one level above crap. I’m not even asking my client to be good. Just one level of crap. You know, if everyone else is crapping your one level above that, you’re gonna win. It’s my favorite. My favorite joke. Some the two guys were out in the woods hunting in the woods in the or just jog. It was the 1st 1 sees Ah, bear. And they see this barren bears raised up is about to strike, and the 1st 1 reaches down and tightens up his laces on his running shoes and the studio. Don’t be community. You can’t outrun a bear and just kind of need to understand how wrong. You know, I love that joke because it’s it’s so true. That’s the concept. You know, all you have to do is be just a little bit better than everyone else, and you’ll win the whole ball game. [00:12:24.54] spk_4:
Now we have to set some things up internally in orderto have the structure in place to create the zombie loyalists. [00:15:46.52] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you have a You have a ah company where the majority of people in your company are afraid to do anything outside the norm. You know, I mean, look at look at a cell phone company. You know, you call them. Could you have a problem, right? 18 T or T mobile? You call them that? Your problem? They’re actually the customer service will handle your caller. Actually judged and rewarded based on how quickly they can get you off the phone, Not on whether or not they fix your problem. How fast that how fast they can get you off the phone. Which means how many more calls again? Remember, I worked when I worked in America Online. We all had to do a day of customer service every month just to see what it was like. That was a brilliant idea. But you know, again, it says it was a system called Vantive for you to sign on and assumes you signed on. If you weren’t in a call, you know, that was tacked against you. If you’re in a call and it went over a certain amount of time, that was tacked against you. So the decks were stacked. Not in the favor. The customer. There are some companies out there who allow their customer service employees to simply be smarter about what they dio and do whatever it is they need to do to fix the problem. Um, you know, my favorite story about this Verizon Wireless I went overseas was in Dubai, and I landed to buy, and I turned my phone had gotten global roaming on my phone. Which 20 bucks for every 100 megabytes. Okay, so I land and I turn on my phone and it says, um, before I’m even off the plane, I get a text that you’ve used $200 in roaming charges. What the hell? You know, $300 by talking about the plan, wegner, Something’s up here. So I called Arise and a nice guy answer the phone. Oh, yeah. I mean, the first thing that was Yes, sir. You do have global roaming, but it doesn’t work in Dubai. Okay, well, that’s not really global. That’s more hemispherical Roaming, I think is the issue. And so he said, Well, look, I’m gonna be here for a week. I said, you know what? You have my credit card on file, Bill me like, I don’t even like 1000 bucks and let me have the phone for, like, a week and, you know, that, you know, 500 bucks and I’ll go over to gigs would just do something for me. Sorry, sir. I’m not authorized to do that. You can look. So what do I have? Well, you can pay $20.48 a megabyte. I’m like, I’m sorry. Seriously. Which equates essentially to be charged 2048 seconds. 3048 cents. For every I think the times for every four seconds of the video Gangnam style if I decided to watch my phone like this is pretty ridiculous. So I simply hung up, hung up on your eyes, and I went down the street to the Dubai. The Mall of the Emirates, which is the largest mall in the world, has a freakin ski slope in it. And I’m not joking. And as a ski slope in this mall and went to one of the 86 different electronic stores in this mall bought an international unlocked version of the same exact cell phone I have went next door to the local sim card store, bought a SIM card that gave me 20 gigabytes of data at 1000 minutes of talk for $40 I then put that in my phone because I it’s an android phone. I simply typed in my user name and password for Google and everything imported. And Verizon did not get a penny on that trip. Um, how easy would have been from Horizon to say, Okay, you know what? We’ll cut your brake. They still make a lot of money off me. And I would tell the world how great Verizon was to work with and how wonderfully how helpful they were. Instead, they guaranteed that I will never They will never make a penny from any international trip. And I take, what, 15 of them a year. Because now my cell phone, um, by international cell phone that I bought all I do is pop out the SIM card in my land wherever I am putting a new SIM card. So [00:15:47.22] spk_4:
and you’re speaking and writing and telling bad [00:16:15.23] spk_0:
jokes and your eyes. And every time I tell the story about variety, I make it a little worse. Apparently, Verizon tests out the durability of their phone by throwing them kittens. Read this or not, but you know, the concept that all they had to do all the energy was in power Mark, and it wasn’t Mark’s fault. Mark was a really nice guy, but he was not allowed to do that. He would get fired if you try to do a deal like that for me. And so it’s this concept, you know. The [00:16:15.36] spk_6:
funny [00:16:15.56] spk_0:
thing is, it comes down If you [00:16:16.82] spk_6:
really [00:16:50.24] spk_0:
want to go go down the road in terms of a public company like Verizon of where the issue is, you could even trace it to fiduciary responsibility because the fiduciary responsibility of any company CEO all the way down to the employee is to make money for the shareholders. Future responsibility means by not allowing me, they don’t allow in. Mark the customer service agent to to help me on and take a different tack is actually losing money. Too many CEOs think about the next quarter. Oh, we have to make our numbers this quarter. I’m fired companies in other countries to nothing with next quarter century, and they make a much bigger difference because the thing okay, what can we do now? That will have impact in the next 5 10 15 years, you know, and really implement the revenue that we have and an augment and companies Americans don’t know nothing about them. That’s a big problem. [00:17:15.80] spk_4:
I’d buy a product line that has a lot of natural and recycled materials. Seventh generation and their, um, their tagline is that in our every decision, we must consider the impact on the next seven generations. It comes from an American Indian. [00:17:21.38] spk_0:
It’s great. It’s a great line. I mean, just thinking about how much money would have made for me in the past three years over just just in my [00:17:27.31] spk_4:
overseas, you’d be telling a story about like them about Morten like the one [00:17:54.51] spk_0:
about a lot of people listen to me and they wegner for a time when you Googled roaming charges variety, wegner, Google Horizon, Roaming charges. My story about how I saved all this money really came up first because I did the math. And if I had not called Mark and bought my own cell phone and done this, I would have come home to a $31,000 cell phone bill and you damn over rising one damn thing about that up to bad. Sorry about the fine print [00:17:56.40] spk_4:
and plus the employee who sold you the quote. International plan, right? I’m sure you told her. No way. I’m [00:18:03.56] spk_0:
going to Canada and they’re going to buy. I’m assuming she didn’t know where to buy was she thought it was near Canada, but yeah, [00:18:09.37] spk_4:
long story short. I couldn’t use it. All right, So employees have to be empowered. There’s to be. We have to be changing a thinking to the customer has to come first. The donor of the volunteer [00:19:40.75] spk_0:
don’t volunteer, you get at the end of the day, where’s your money coming from? Look, if you’re not profit our Fortune 100 where’s the money coming from? You know, And if you we see it happening over and over again. We’re seeing what you’re seeing right now. Play out every single day with company uber uber. It’s so funny cause uber makes you know the value of $40 billion right now. But that doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean anything. If people are running away in droves, which people are, there’s a whole delete your uber app movement hard. Oh God. Yet people are living. What’s the problem? Well, it’s several number one that uber is run by a bunch of guys who honor the bro code. The company was actually started by a guy who, in on business in business, insider said he started the company, get laid. His goal was to always a black car when he was leaving a restaurant to impress the girl he was with that he came out and said that And you see that culture run rampant throughout uber from their God mode, where they can see they actually create. There was, Ah, read this amendment visited center as well that they created a hookup page that showed or, ah, walk of shame Page that showed where women were leaving certain apartments like on weekends. And we’re leaving certain place on weekends, going back to their home. It was obvious that they, you know, some guy and I think they did that. And of course, just there their whole surge pricing mentality, which is, you know, two days ago there was, ah, a couple of the terrorists of the biggest Harris attacking in Sydney at that at that bakery, and Sydney Uber and Sydney instituted surge pricing for people trying to get out of harm’s way, you know, and and they later refund it. [00:19:48.41] spk_6:
Oh, it was a computer [00:20:07.46] spk_0:
glitch. You know, I’m sorry. You have a stop button. And you can when you see something happening like that, there has to be someone in the office. You know what? Not cool. We’re gonna take care of that and hit the stop button. And it was yet bad. Tons and tons and tons of bad publicity. You know, I was having an argument with one of my facebook page facebook dot com slash peter Shankman Because they said, Oh, you know, So what they don’t They don’t turn surge pricing don’t have enough cabs. They’re, you know, people can’t get home. I said, I’m pretty sure that the on Lee come, but I’m sure that no one had cab companies that I’m sure that there wasn’t anyone who had enough cars. They’re private cabs, uber’s whatever. Yet the Onley stories I read about cos screwing up during the event where uber not Joe’s Sydney cab company. You know, I didn’t see him screwing up because he didn’t turn on surge pricing. You gotta You gotta respect your customer after, [00:20:40.16] spk_4:
as we’re ah training for that, then not only trying to change that mind ships well in in trying to change that mindset, rewards for custom for employees that do take, go to go the extra [00:21:01.89] spk_0:
mile Well, first of all, if you give the employees the ability to do it to go the extra mile and understand they won’t get fired, you’re not gonna get in. Try always to tell every one of my employees you never get in trouble for spending a little extra money to try and keep a customer happy. You’ll get fired for not doing it. You know you’re fired for, not for seeing an opportunity to fix someone and not taking [00:21:06.61] spk_4:
not doing everything that you could [00:21:44.36] spk_0:
know. Ritz Carlton is famous for its current hires people not because whether they could fool the bed sheet but for how well they understand people. Because in Ritz Carlton’s mind, it’s much more important to be a people person and be able to be empathetic, and that it’s such a key word. Empathy is just so so sorely lacking. You know how many have called customer service? Yeah, you know, I have to have to change my flight. Might my My aunt just died. I really D’oh! Okay, great. That’s $200. I just want to go now. Earlier, You know, you show up at the airport, your bag is overweight by half a pound. That’s $25. I just can you just cut me some slack note. So empathy and giving the custard, giving the employees the ability to understand that the customer that sometimes you can make exceptions and it is okay to make changes. [00:21:51.27] spk_4:
And this is where a smaller organization [00:21:53.57] spk_6:
has huge advantage. It’s easier to change. [00:22:01.54] spk_0:
That’s what kills me. You know, I go to these try to frequent small businesses when I can. I get you something small businesses and they won’t they act like large businesses, you know, in the respect that they [00:22:06.46] spk_6:
don’t have. [00:22:06.91] spk_4:
Ah, they want to be respected almost [00:22:46.53] spk_0:
don’t have, like, a 6 6000 page code that they have to adhere to. They can simply, uh, do something on the fly. And yet, for whatever reason, they won’t do it. And it’s the most frustrating things. And look, guys, you’re acting like a big your act like Mega Lo Mart here, you know, and you’re not Mega Lo Mart, and you’re just Joe’s House of Stationary whatever it is and, you know, not be able to help me. You’re pretty much killing yourself because you don’t have 85 billion customers that come to the door after me, you know? But I have a pretty big network. And for a small business, two get killed socially, as social becomes more and more what? How we communicate, You know, it’s just craziness. [00:22:56.18] spk_4:
You know, we’re pretty much in a world, I think, where something almost hasn’t happened to you. Unless unless you share [00:23:41.18] spk_0:
it e joke that, you know, if I can take a selfie. Was I really there? Um but it’s true, You know, we do live in a world where, you know, I remember God 10 years ago. Maybe not even not even 10 years ago. I was one of the first people have a phone in my camera, you know, And it was like, 24. That’s why you can ring my phone. Right? And it was like a I think a 0.8 megapixels. You know, it looked like I was taking a picture with a potato, but it was It was this. I remember it was 2002 and I was in Chase Bank and there was a woman arguing with the teller and I pulled out my video. You know, it was the crappiest video you ever seen. I pulled it out and I said, You know, I started recording and the woman behind the cat woman, the kind I was doing The woman behind the counter was talking to the customs, saying, You do not speak to me that way. You get out of this bank right now and the country was saying, I just wanted my balance, and you and your manager comes over. I [00:23:54.71] spk_6:
get this whole thing [00:23:55.15] spk_0:
on my little crappy three g Motorola folk phone, and I remember I posted online and Gawker picks it up. I gave him E mail. The headline I put on my block was, you know, chase where the right relationship is at. Go out yourself, you know? And it was It just got tons of play and the Gawker picked it up. It went everywhere, totally viral. So [00:24:11.97] spk_6:
it’s one of those things here, just like, you know, this is in [00:25:02.50] spk_0:
2002. It’s 12 years later. How the hell can you assume that nothing is being that you’re not being recorded. You know, I I ever blowing I sneezed a couple weeks ago and, uh ah, not to get too graphic here, but I needed a tissue big time after I was done season. I remember going through my pockets looking for desperate, looking for tissue, looking around, making sure it wasn’t on camera somewhere that someone didn’t grab that for the next viral sensation. You know, I got I went to high school with a block from here, right? If the amount of cameras that are in Lincoln Center today were there in 1989 90 90 be having this conversation entirely, I’d be having a conversation behind bulletproof for myself. Yeah, so you know, you’d be you’d be talking to. You have to get special clearance to visit me probie at the Super Max in Colorado. It’s one of those things that you just like. My kid, who’s who’s almost two years old now is gonna grow up with absolutely no expectation of privacy the same way that we grew up with an expectation of privacy. And I’m thankful for that because she will make a lot less stupid moves, you know? I mean God, The things that I thought, you know, in in high school I thought [00:25:18.88] spk_6:
the stupid isn’t the [00:25:24.18] spk_0:
world. Thank God there wasn’t a way for me to broadcast that to the world in real time. Thank God [00:25:32.01] spk_4:
creating these zombie loyalists. And we’ve got to change some. We gotta change culture and thinking and reward systems. Let’s go back to the cost of all this. Why is this a better investment than trying to just focus on new donors? [00:25:39.30] spk_0:
I I love this analogy and give your fun analogy lets [00:25:42.56] spk_6:
him [00:26:18.95] spk_0:
in a bar. And there’s a very cute girl across the across the park and catch my eye catcher. I go up to a go. You know, you don’t know me. I’m amazing in bed. You should finish your drink right now. Come home. Let’s get it on. I’m gonna impress. I’m that good Chancellor should get throw a drink in my face. Go back talking to her friends. I’ve done a lot of research on this. That’s probably now let’s assume let’s assume an alternate world. I’m sitting there on my phone. I’m just playing like, you know, some no boards are frantically and she’s over there talking to friends, one of her friends. Holy crap, That’s [00:26:19.53] spk_6:
Peter Peter Shankman. I’ve heard him speak. He’s in this [00:26:22.95] spk_0:
fantasy world. I’m single, too. [00:26:27.13] spk_6:
He I think he’s single and he’s having the amazing guy I know. He has a cat you ever get. You should totally go talk to [00:26:48.71] spk_0:
him the very least. I’m getting this girl’s number. That’s PR, Okay. And what do we trust? More me with my fancy suit collar going over the seventies. Leaders in Hi, I’m amazing. Or the girl saying, Hey, we’ve been friends since their grade. I’m recommending that guy. You should trust me on this. Obviously, that that’s where good customer service comes into play. And that’s where corporate culture comes into play. Because if I have a great experience with you and at your company, I’m gonna tell my friend when they’re looking and I will stake my personal reputation. And there’s nothing stronger [00:26:58.24] spk_4:
than that. And these are the people who want to breed as his eyes [00:27:00.65] spk_0:
are stronger than advertising stronger the marketing [00:27:03.15] spk_4:
and they’re gonna share. People want to share [00:27:10.38] spk_0:
that. Think about the Internet runs on two things. It runs on drama, drama and bragging bragging and drama. And if you if you need any proof of that, you go and look at all the hashtags with crap that’s happened, you know, bad customer service, bad, whatever. But [00:27:19.84] spk_6:
then look at all [00:27:28.34] spk_0:
the good hash tags. You know, when our flight’s delayed for three hours and we lose our seat Oh, my God. I hate this airline. The worst A line ever. But when we get upgraded right hashtag [00:27:29.24] spk_6:
first class bitches or [00:27:30.13] spk_0:
whatever it is, you know, like that [00:27:31.80] spk_6:
on the whole, because we love to [00:27:33.27] spk_0:
share its on Lee a great experience if we could tell the world. And it’s only a bad experience if we could make everyone else miserable about it as well. [00:29:23.57] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for nonprofits, that means for you that it has what nonprofits need, what you’re looking for. Like fund accounting. Critical. Um, no more spreadsheets for your restricted funds. Fraud prevention, outstanding customer service. You will get a free 60 day trial on a listener landing page at now. It’s time for tony steak too. And I thank you for all your support in 2019 as we wind the year down. Um, lots of listeners. Grateful. Grateful for all the 13,000 plus listeners week after week. Um, those podcast listeners. Thank you so much. If you listen live. I’m grateful to you. You know, I’m always sending the live love as well as the podcast. Pleasantries, Of course. Thank you. Uh, even when there’s just six or eight or 10 people listening live, it gives me energy. I love knowing that there are a couple of people scattered throughout the world. Doesn’t matter, really? Doesn’t matter. Listening live. I’m grateful for that. Thank you. Tuning in life. Um, and maybe there are other ways that we’re connected. If it’s ah, through the Facebook page. Twitter, um, linked in. Nah, there’s not too much unlinked in too much activity on linked in some. But however it is you’re connected. Oh, the inbox. If you’re getting the insider alerts, thank you for that. Every Thursday. Getting those. Thank you. However, it is your with non profit radio supporting non profit radio. I thank you very much. And that is Tony’s Take two. Let’s continue with Peter Shankman and Zombie loyalists. [00:29:33.82] spk_4:
Peter, you have a golden rule of social media that that a good number of customers like to share and people are gonna keep doing [00:30:18.21] spk_0:
it. People will always share. Um, again, it goes back to the concept that if you create great stuff, people want to share it because people like to be associated with good things. If you create bad stuff and my stuff, I could meet. I mean anything from, like, a bad experience, too, that content people not only won’t share that, but we go out of their way to tell people how terrible you are. Yeah, um, you know, how many times have you seen companies fail horribly? Uh, you know, after major disasters when companies were tweeting, um, you know, completely unrelated things after after random school shooting? No, it was after the shooting at the theater in Aurora, Colorado. The Dark knight, the tweets. [00:30:19.13] spk_6:
Hey, shooter’s, what’s your plans for this [00:31:12.47] spk_0:
weekend? You know, and I’m just going, really, you know, But of course, the thing was, the thing was retweeted millions of times, you know, with a sort of shame on the way. So wait, We’re society. Like I said earlier, that loves to share. When, When great things happen to us but loves to tell the world when we’re miserable, because we’re only truly miserable when you make everyone else miserable. Um, it’s funny, you mentioned, Ah, generosity. Siri’s the one of my favorite stories, which goes to sort of a bigger picture of culture and somehow when you’re just doing your job, because that’s what you’re supposed to do your job. But you don’t realize there are ways to get around that. I I listened to your podcast, among others, when I’m running through Central Park on Dhe, more like if you know my body type more like lumbering through Central Park. But I get there. I’m an iron man, I have that. And, ah, so I go to Central Park and it’s super early in the morning cause I usually have meetings and I don’t run fast. I run like I really don’t run fast, but But as I’m running, [00:31:16.56] spk_4:
but let’s give you the credit that you have done a bunch of iron Man, [00:33:02.26] spk_0:
I have try. I do. I do it, you know. My mother tells me that I just have very poor judgment in terms of what sports I should do But, um, on the flip side, I’m also a skydiver, which is with my weight is awesome. I fall better than anyone, but so I’m running through Central Park. Last year it was February, February of 13 and 14 of this year. And, um, it was around 4 45 in the morning because I had a Canadian meeting and have you 10 miles. So four foot of the morning running about, but hopping around 1979 88th Street on the east side in the park and a cop pulls me over. And what you doing? Look at him. You know, I’m wearing black spandex. I have had it’s five degrees. I don’t want you playing checkers, you know, like I’m running and it’s like, Okay, can you stop running? I’m like, OK, does that give the park’s closed? No, it’s not. Look, I’m in it. Look around. There are other people who know part doesn’t open this exam like he’s ago. Would you have any idea? And you’re like, No, I’m running because what you name, I’m like, seriously, I’m writing you a summit. I’m like you ready? Made some. It’s for exercising. I just want to clarify that you’re writing. And sure enough, the guy wrote me a summons for exercising in Central Park before it opened. The charge was breaking the violating curfew. You know, I’m like I get the concept. The curfew is to keep people out after 2 a.m. It’s not to prevent them going in early to exercise, to be healthy. I’m like, I’m not carrying a six pack. I’m not drinking a big gulp. I’m not smoking. I mean, I’m doing something healthy, and you’re writing me a summons for it. Um, I said I’m gonna have a field day with this. I said I have some fathers. This will be a lot of fun. I’m not. You know, you’re just doing your job Serve even though you have the discretion not to. But Okay, so I go back home, take a picture of me, take it, e mail it to a friend of mine in New York Post front page New York Post next day. No running from this ticket. York Times covered it. Runner’s world covered. I mean, I went everywhere. Gawker covered it, you know? And my [00:33:06.66] spk_6:
whole thing was [00:33:10.15] spk_0:
just like, Dude, you have discretion. Look, at me. You know, I’m not. [00:33:10.85] spk_6:
I’m not even going super fast, for God’s sake. [00:33:13.39] spk_0:
I’m just just trying to exercise here, you know? And [00:33:16.08] spk_6:
of course, I went [00:33:16.47] spk_0:
to court, and I beat it. But how [00:33:18.25] spk_6:
much money [00:33:21.19] spk_0:
they cost the city for me to go to court fight this thing. You know, every employee you have to give your employees the power of discretion. The power of empathy to make their own decisions. If you go by the book, bad things will happen. [00:33:28.71] spk_4:
And again, small shops. So much easier to do. Yep. Flatline flat organizations. [00:33:58.10] spk_0:
I worked with a nonprofit animal rescue non profit. A friend of mine was a skydiver and shut him out. I can’t, but But there’s a friend of mine, Scott, ever. And she was killed in a base jump several years ago, and her husband asked to donate her memory to this non profit. So I set him a check, and about three months later, I get a coffee table book of mail and I was living by myself. The time I didn’t own a coffee table. It was, you know, more money to spend on my flat screen. And I remember I call I look at this coffee table guy throw I throw in the corner. I look at it over next couple days. It pisses me off on how much How much of my donation did it cost to print? Melon produced this book to me, and so I called them up. Well, sure. We believe most of our donors are older, and I prefer to get a print version as opposed to, like digital. You know where they throw it away, Like you don’t traditionally, but Okay, um, I’m like, So So you’ve asked your you’ve done surveys in. You’ve asked, You [00:34:23.15] spk_6:
know, we just assume the [00:35:03.43] spk_0:
most number older. I’m like, Okay, I open my mouth lineup joining the board and spent the next year interviewing customers, interviewing every current and past donor about how they like to get their information and shock of shocks. 94% said online. And so over the following year, we launched Facebook page, Twitter page. Um uh flicker account, YouTube, everything. PS the following year for that, donations went up 37% in one year in that economies, right ran away tonight. Donations went up 37% in one year, and they saved over $500,000 in printing mammalian reproduction. Imagine going to your boss, boss. Revenues up 37%. And we saved 1/2 $1,000,000 in Boston about your really good beer. You know, all they had to do was listen to their audience, be relevant to the audience you have, and they will tell you what they [00:35:09.51] spk_4:
want. We have tons of tools for segment. [00:35:11.34] spk_0:
Oh, my God. [00:35:11.93] spk_4:
You gotta listen to what segment you want. People want to be. [00:35:31.37] spk_0:
You know, someone someone asked me today. You know what? What’s the best way? I knew nothing about their company. What’s the best social media outlet for me to be on? Should be on Twitter ship on Facebook, I said, I’ll answer that question. If you can answer this This this question to ask you is my favorite type of cheese Gouda or the number six. I understand that’s not a real question. Look, neither is yours like I can’t tell you where the best place to be your audience can. I said, Go ask your audience. Believe me, they will tell you there’s a gas station. The Midwest come and go. I love the name K u M and G O. And there, Tad, [00:35:47.60] spk_4:
you can read more about [00:35:48.35] spk_0:
the tagline is always something extra. I [00:35:51.22] spk_6:
mean, come on, the jokes just [00:35:52.39] spk_0:
right sells for God’s sake. But [00:35:54.88] spk_6:
then I’ll take themselves too seriously, that ghost knowing the name of [00:36:06.27] spk_0:
the company gas station. And I remember there in Iowa and I went to visit a friend and I went I was like, You’ve got to get a photo of you in front of coming goes And the [00:36:08.77] spk_6:
beauty of this is that some of their employees [00:36:09.59] spk_0:
actually look at their customers when they’re on their phones. In the stores [00:36:13.27] spk_6:
go. You know what you use Twitter or Facebook? [00:36:15.25] spk_0:
And they say, [00:36:19.93] spk_6:
Oh, you and the record that information and they know it. Customers will give you so much info if you just ask them, because then they feel [00:36:42.42] spk_0:
invested. They feel invest in your company. They feel like they that you took the time to listen to their non profit requests or their their their questions. And they feel like they’re radio for Harrow. Every month we have a one question Harrow survey, you know, heroin question survey, and it would get like 1000 people respond. I’d spend the entire weekend emailing Everyone responded, thanking them personally and took my entire weekend. But it was great because I would wind up happening. Is that you know, if we took their advice and launch it on Monday with the new thing? [00:36:45.69] spk_6:
Oh, my God. How did this They took my advice? [00:36:48.15] spk_0:
Yeah, was your advice to 800 other people Advice. But we [00:36:51.82] spk_6:
took it and it just [00:36:52.67] spk_0:
It just made them so much more loyal. And they tell hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people we get in. There were days. I got three days where I was in Temple one morning, the Garment Center synagogue and my phone. I feel like phone getting really hot in my pocket, which is not normal. And I start hurting. I look at it. It almost fired. It had frozen because we were mentioned in Seth Gordon’s morning blogged, and at that time, I was getting emails. Every time we get a new subscriber and the phone actually frozen and was locked and and was like overheating, I t at the battery and reset the entire phone because we’ve got so many new 14,000 subscribers in, like, three hours. [00:37:26.40] spk_4:
I’ve seen some scene you say. Excuse me? You say that customer service is the new advertising, marketing and PR. Yeah, it [00:37:59.32] spk_0:
really is. Well again. You know, if we’re moving into that world where so imagine a lava lamp. And I love that. I can use this now. Imagine a lava lamp. A lava lamp has water, oil and a heat source. Right. Heat source heats the oil. The oil flows with water. It makes pretty colors. I’ve heard it looks really good when you’re high. Now I’ve heard. Now imagine if crystals imagine if you’re, uh, everyone you meet in your network, okay? Is a drop of oil. The water is your network. And [00:38:00.84] spk_6:
what is your world? Everyone you meet in your [00:38:19.92] spk_0:
network from from the guy you’re sitting doing the radio interview with to the guy who serves you ice creams, local deli to the guy who does your dry cleaning to your girlfriend to your wife to not same time to your kids. Second grade teacher to your second grade teacher years ago. Everyone you meet is in your network, You know, right now, when Facebook first started I would see the same weight [00:38:26.85] spk_4:
from a kid. I was in high school, his post with the same weight as like my current girlfriend, which is ridiculous. I don’t need to know about everything. [00:38:55.92] spk_0:
My friend from junior high school’s doing even talking kid In 15 years, Facebook’s getting a lot smarter as Google. Now I see the people I communicate with the most okay, and if I if I reach out and connect with new people, they start rising in my feet and my stream. If I don’t they fall. It’s just like a lava lamp. Every person you connect with is a drop of oil. That heat source at the bottom that’s rising. Raising or lowering those drops of oil is relevance. So imagine the heat sources relevance. And the more I interact with someone, the more the higher they go [00:38:56.87] spk_4:
in my network in the more I see of them, the more trust level [00:38:58.84] spk_0:
there is. When I’m at a bar and I meet someone in a restaurant or conference, I meet someone. I don’t need [00:39:05.32] spk_4:
to connect them. I don’t need to go on Facebook. Friend request [00:39:08.37] spk_6:
that, you know, awkward [00:39:09.04] spk_0:
friend requesting is when you stop to think that last [00:39:10.41] spk_6:
time my [00:39:10.56] spk_0:
friend requested some of the real world was second grade. Will you be my friend? My daughter’s doing that because, you know, it’s like [00:39:15.91] spk_6:
cat Will you be my [00:39:16.85] spk_0:
friend? Kind of. The captain will be here, [00:39:20.10] spk_6:
but you know, it’s this awkward thing. Who the hell friend Request someone. If I hang out with [00:40:09.71] spk_0:
you the bar and we connect again and we talk and we go out of dinner and we’re having a good time. We’re friends. I don’t need to first request that you, you know, that’s going away. Friending following liking and fanning is all going away. What will interact is the actual connection. So if I meet with you and I have a good time with you and we talk again if I use your business, if I go to your non profit, if I donate, if I volunteer, whatever network knows that the more I do that, the more interact with you. The more you have the right to market to me and the more you will be at the top of my stream in the more I will see information about you, the less I will have Thio search for you. But if you do something stupid or we’re no longer friends Yeah, you’re gonna fade. I don’t unfriend. You just disappear. Unfriending is also awkward. I dated a woman. We broke up. It was nine months after we broke up. Neither of us want friend, the other one, because it’s just awkward. I woke up in front of me, but you know the concept of not having to do that of just, you know? Okay, I haven’t talked in a while. I don’t see [00:40:25.45] spk_4:
your post anymore. It’s the real world. And if you’re not feeding zombie loyalists, they can start to defect. No question about it. I want to spend a little time on. If you’re not talking to them, giving them what they want, [00:40:27.55] spk_0:
talking about their information, helping them out, they will gladly go somewhere else to someone who is. You know, if I have a great experience of the restaurant every week for three years and then [00:40:37.25] spk_6:
all of a sudden overtime, [00:40:37.67] spk_4:
I’m noticing less unless that restaurant’s doing less and less [00:40:49.65] spk_0:
to ah, take care of me, you know, and maybe management’s change. And I don’t feel that you know I’m ripe for being infected by another company. I’m right for someone else to come. You know, Peter, because if I tweet something Wow, I can’t believe I have to wait 40 minutes for a table that didn’t used to be like that. If if someone else is smart restaurant, they’re following me, and they’re gonna great. You [00:40:57.17] spk_6:
know, if there’s no Wait, no, wait over here. Why don’t you come to black storms [00:40:59.58] spk_4:
will give you a free [00:41:04.21] spk_0:
drink, you know, you know, and that right there, that’s first sign of infection. And I might become infected by another by another company becomes on the little us [00:41:34.71] spk_4:
for them. And so let’s take. You have a lot of good examples. Let’s take a one on one situation. How can we start to cure that? The simple act of realizing following your customer’s understanding when they’re not happy on fixing the situation before it escalates, you can contain a small outbreak, a small outbreaks, well, viral outbreak. You can contain that by getting the right people finding out what the problem is getting into one room, fixing their problem, healing them. You have a good united story right back When was Continental? [00:41:51.51] spk_0:
I was, Ah, frequent flier and booked a trip to Paris on Dhe was very angry because they charged me $400 looking for you. I remember what it was. And, uh, I call the CEO. I just just for the hell of it. I’m like, I’m [00:41:54.09] spk_6:
gonna I wrote a letter and email before Social, right? Ryan e mailed the CEO like this. Ridiculous. I’m free, [00:42:33.06] spk_0:
like, 30 minutes on my phone rings. Hello, Peter, Please hold for Larry Kellman, CEO of Coming little. And I’m like, Oh, crap, you know, and get on the phone. He’s like, Peter, I did. Miss Jackman radio started these fees of their new um, we sent that note. I’m getting it and see it. We’re gonna wave them for you, But you have any more problems, you know, feel free to call me and I end up the phones the next 40 minutes, sort of staring at it like holy crab Larry killed on the CEO of United Airlines just called me and, uh, talk to me, and it was like it was like God coming down and say you now have the power to levitate your cat. It was just ridiculous. And so, you know, I have been faithful to Continental and now united ever since. On Dhe. They continue to treat me with respect and do great things, and they’re [00:42:40.40] spk_6:
they’re improving. They were [00:42:41.25] spk_0:
getting a lot of crap over the past several years, and there really are starting to approve. It’s nice to see [00:42:45.01] spk_4:
and not only, of course, your own loyalty, but you’re [00:42:47.19] spk_0:
my God. I [00:42:47.98] spk_4:
was only loyalist for them and how many times how much it’s unquantifiable [00:42:52.59] spk_0:
attract so many friends to united. I’ve made so many friends. I mean, my father, you know, he only flashing at it now, which means he only drag. He dragged my mom on the Internet and I only drink my wife. You know, there’s a lot of lot of work that way. [00:43:10.40] spk_4:
We gotta go away for a couple of minutes when we come back. Of course, Peter and I are gonna keep talking about his book comes out in January. Zombie Loyalists, [00:43:37.94] spk_3:
Time for our last break. Ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them, turn to Communications can help do that for you. They are former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for zombie loyalists. [00:43:44.04] spk_4:
You have some examples of zombie loyalist leaving and mass like dominoes. Netflix. They’re both They’re both in the book. So if so one leaving if you know you’re gonna start the cure One leaving? [00:44:13.48] spk_0:
Yeah. And that’s the thing. You know, the little expand beauty, the Internet with the hashtag, everything like that. It doesn’t take a long time for those things. Just blow up in your face. And you know, the other day everyone’s a Twitter is responsible for us losing another non you’re responsible for using, you know, And if your product isn’t great and you’re your actions, don’t speak well of who you are. Then there’s no reason your customers should stay with you, you know? And it was l Social media is really hurting. I know you’re hurting yourself. The only difference is that social media makes it easier for the world to know. [00:44:29.12] spk_4:
Yeah, they’re just telling the story. Dominoes and Netflix are good example because they they bounce back. They took responsibility and [00:45:01.77] spk_0:
they both owned the dominoes, came out and said, You know what? You’re right. Our pizza and we do have a problem. We’re gonna fix this and they spent millions fixing it. And sure enough, they’re back with a vengeance. Now, I may or may not even have ordered them around in a while, and I live in New York City. That’s that’s a That’s a sacrilege. But you know, I have the app on my phone from oversea. No traveling somewhere. I’ll be in Sheboygan or whatever. And you know what? Do you get it 11. 30 at night when you’re flights, Lady land Dhamma? Um, which reminds me I should probably flip side. Look at someone like Netflix. They also were screwed up. You know, they were losing that. Tried to switch between the two. They came up with a new name and it was so gross and public. Oh, man. Again, you’re watching the same thing happen with uber right now. Seems to be really interesting to see if they’re able to repair themselves. [00:45:16.67] spk_4:
Listening is important, but both those both those two examples, they listen to their customers. [00:45:21.49] spk_6:
Think there’s a [00:45:46.06] spk_0:
problem with listening because everyone’s been saying, Listen, listen, listen for months and years and years and years now, But, you know, no one ever says that you have to do more than just listen. Listen, actually follow up. Yeah, it’s one thing to listen. You know, I used to having my wife. I could sit there and listen to her for hours, you know? But I don’t actually say anything back. She’s just smack me, you know, and go to the other room. And so you really have to. It’s a two way street. Listening is great, but you respond. And look, I think it’s that further Twitter so great, because someone was complaining on Twitter and we went online. We we saw [00:45:49.60] spk_6:
the complaint that we fixed their problem and gazes. How about if the [00:46:17.14] spk_0:
problem don’t exist in the first place? You know, because the great thing about Twitter is that you have people complain on Twitter. The bad thing about it is there, complaining about you on Twitter. So it’s like, What if the problem didn’t exist in the first place? What if What if you empowered your front desk clerk to fix the problem so that I didn’t have to tweet hurts is my favorite story about all this, huh? I used to rent from Hertz religiously. Um, and then I went to Ah, Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport has passed April. And I gave it, was giving a speech and go, Oh, my name is supposed be on the board, you know, second car, and it [00:46:21.72] spk_6:
wasn’t Okay. [00:46:22.52] spk_0:
What happened? I got upstairs. I wait 40 minutes on the VP line. Um, after 40 minutes, they finally said, you know, there’s Ah, uh, only one guy here. A lot of people might have. Better chance we go to the regular line, okay. Probably told us that a little earlier. The regular and spend 45 minutes wait in the regular line. It’s now been. [00:46:39.15] spk_4:
Are you tweeting while this is happening? [00:47:15.85] spk_0:
Well, I didn’t know I was actually not only tweeting I had enough time to create a mean that should give you some idea of how long I was online with myself. I mean, I get it to the counter, how I can help you. Yeah, I was downstairs. The VP doesn’t tony. Oh, you’ll be a preservation room upstairs. Yeah. Okay. Let’s let’s put a pin in that. They just sent me up here, like right? They have to help you. Well, it’s not really They you guys for the same company. I mean, I could see the reservation on the screen. You you can help me. Sorry, sir. I can’t help. You have to be happy next. Like you just next to me. Okay, so if you know anything about Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix Um, all of the rental car coming through in the same place. Yeah. So I walked 50 feet. [00:47:18.81] spk_4:
It’s a bus. Takes you to the big the big A civilian. Where? The role. Next week [00:49:14.67] spk_0:
I walked 50 feet from the cesspool of filth in depravity That was hurts to the wonderful Zen Garden of Tranquility that was Avis. And in four minutes, I had a nicer, cheaper, more nicer, less expensive car given to a woman named Phyllis, who was 66 moved to Phoenix from Detroit with her husband for his asthma. I knew this because she told me. Um, she smiled at me. She brought her manager out and said, adds another refugee from Hertz and I said This happens a lot. They’re like, Yeah, I’m like, Wow, you think they have done something about it? And so on the way out in Avis, I thank them. I walked past hers. I shoot the casino, sort of. Look at the look of the beast. I get my Avis carnage at my hotel. I want to go to a hotel. I write a wonderful block post about my experience called Peter and hurts. And terrible. Horrible. No book could really bad customer experience. Do you have a kid? You find rewriting titles about your blood Post that you have to do with kids books. I do not like hurts, Sam. I am. And and, uh, I included in this block post the five things I’d rather do than ever, uh, rent from Hertz again. I think number three was It was Ah, ride a razor blade bust through a lemon juice waterfall. Um, with just, you know, and it’s a But of course, the next day hurts reaches out to me. J. Manuel is the head of North American customer service. That’s all you’re But I’m like, you know, we’d love to have up Nick. No, Like you’re not gonna fix the problem. Number 17 Avis car. I’m never going back to her. Number two through five people yesterday, five people interacted with all of whom had the chance to save me and keep me as a customer for life. A customer had been so happy, and I would have loved you. Five people blew it. So don’t waste your time trying to convert me back. You’re not going to. What you want to do is spend some of that energy retraining your staff to have empathy and to give them the ability and the empowerment to fix my problem when it happens. Because five people it takes every single employee to keep your company running. It takes one to kill it. Yeah, PS Avis reached out, um, to thank me personally. And ah, I am now just this ridiculously huge, loyal fan of Davis and always will be. [00:49:23.79] spk_6:
You have a pretty [00:49:28.14] spk_4:
touching story. But when you worked in a yogurt shop, you’re really young way. Have a couple minutes, tell it, tell it could stay. [00:49:38.48] spk_0:
That was in the east side. Which again is yet another reason why I live in the West Side. Nothing good ever happens on Manhattan’s East Side. So I was. I was working and I can’t believe it’s yogurt, which was a store that I think back in the I c B Y. No, no TCB. Why was the country’s best yogurt the country’s I C B I. Why was a poor I [00:49:49.81] spk_6:
can’t believe that you can Blame is [00:49:58.44] spk_0:
not your yogurt with a poor attempt to capitalize on his TV. But I’m working at this store and I go every day and make the offer to clean the floors. I do. [00:50:00.19] spk_6:
You know, a [00:50:19.94] spk_0:
typical high school job. And, uh, it was during this summer and houses of people walking by It was like Second Avenue or something. And there were these brass poles that hung from, you know, there was awning, right? It’s only that there were the brass poles that held the awning up and they were dirty as hell, right? I’m sure they’ve never been polished ever. And [00:50:20.09] spk_6:
I found I found some brass [00:50:21.29] spk_0:
polish in the back, all right, but in the back and went after anyone outside, and I’m positive polishing the polls. My logic was, if the polls are shiny and people saw them. Maybe they come into the store. Maybe they’d wanna, you know, buy more screenplays and the manager came out. [00:50:33.99] spk_6:
What the hell are you [00:50:35.48] spk_0:
doing? I told him what I thought. [00:50:36.78] spk_6:
I’d hate to think. Get inside. [00:50:38.56] spk_0:
You know, there’s no customers in there. Okay? I’ll make sure the yogurt still pumping it full blast. And I quit. I just quit that job. I mean, I couldn’t even begin to understand why someone would invest. I mean, t own a franchise, bring 50 grand to at least to buy that franchise. Why wouldn’t he invest in the two seconds it took a little elbow grease to make the posting That might bring in more customers. What the hell And you know, [00:51:01.06] spk_4:
But you’re not paid to think [00:51:11.06] spk_0:
you’re not paid to think my favorite line. Yeah, um, I just I encourage if any kids are listening to teenagers. If you if you boss says that to you, quit, quit. I will hire you. Just quit. It’s probably the worst thing in the world that you could possibly do because you have customers who you have customers who every day can be helped by people who are paid to think, and that’s the ones you want. Here. [00:51:22.03] spk_4:
We got to wrap up. Tell me what you love about the work you do. [00:51:57.46] spk_0:
I get paid to talk. I mean, my God, that’s the same stuff I used to get in trouble for in high school. But on a bigger picture, what I really love about it is being able to open someone’s eyes and haven’t come back to me. Um, I run a series of masterminds called shank Mines Business masterminds shank minds dot com their daylong seminars around the country. And I had someone come to meet, you know, I took your advice about X y Z, and I started listening a little more. And I just got the largest retainer client I’ve ever had in my life by a factor of four. She goes, and I just can’t even thank you. Never said gorgeous bottle of tequila can’t even thank you enough. Oh, my God. Being able to help people, you know, at the end of the day where I have yet to find another planet suitable for life, I’m looking. So we’re all in this together. And if that’s the case, you know, why wouldn’t we want to help people just little bit more. You know, there really isn’t a need to be, as do she is, as we are as a society, we could probably all be a little nicer to each other, and you’d be surprised. A little help. [00:52:15.83] spk_4:
The book is Zombie Loyalists, published by Pal Grave. McMillan comes out in January. You’ll find Peter at Shenkman dot com and on Twitter at Peter Shankman. Peter, Thank you so much. Pleasure [00:52:27.05] spk_0:
was mine. Thank you. [00:52:30.74] spk_3:
Next week I’m working on it. Trust me. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Math and software The Nolly Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Montaigne for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO [00:53:13.54] spk_2:
creative producers Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great
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Transcript for 468_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20191206.mp3
Hello and welcome to [00:01:19.44] spk_3:
tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% of your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with excess dough, sis if you shared the boneheaded idea that you missed today’s show. Big impact. Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivian Hexter is co author of the book Big Impact, and she shares lessons and reflections from the author’s interviews for their book that originally aired April 27th. 2018 on tony Steak to the Legacy Fallacy were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s a big impact. [00:02:12.88] spk_0:
It feels so good to be back in the studio and to have a guest in the studio. She’s Vivian Hexter. She’s sitting here life. It’s unbelievable. She’s right here during extra, she’s co author with Linda Hartley of the book Big Impact insights and strategies from America’s non profit leaders. She’s a principal also with Linda Hartley of H two growth Strategies. I’m gonna ask her if she does anything without Linda Hartley if they’re married or they’re married to each other’s brothers or something. I don’t know. Um, also talking about this company name. I think you blew it, but we’ll get to that. Um, So what do Vivian and Linda do in H two growth strategies? They advise nonprofits and foundations in strategies, effective marketing and increasing revenues both earned and contributed. She also coaches executives. She was CEO of Gilda’s Club Worldwide. You know them? The red doors. Everybody knows them. They are at H two growth strategies dot com, and she is at the Hexter. Welcome, Vivian Dexter. [00:02:20.84] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. It’s great to be here [00:02:26.12] spk_0:
for pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Um, this book You, uh you interviewed lots of people. We did Hominy, Hominy, non profit leaders. Did you seek out [00:02:31.76] spk_4:
near it Turned out to be nearly 50 [00:02:38.40] spk_0:
50. Okay, but the cover only has 21 pictures that the top 21 of the 50 [00:02:40.16] spk_4:
those air the 21 who are featured [00:02:48.15] spk_0:
those eyes that how it works. Okay, those are the ones I read about that featured okay through. But then you had quotes from another 39. That’s that’s right. Okay. Over how many years you you talk to these people. [00:02:58.61] spk_4:
So the process from start to finish took us about two years. The process of interviewing and then writing and editing and publishing the [00:03:06.36] spk_0:
book. Now, how do we know that you’ve got the best 50 non profit minds? How did you select out of the thousands that are available? Really? [00:03:11.24] spk_4:
Well, I have to say it’s a highly highly subjective [00:03:14.12] spk_0:
list. Your friends Well, ones that would meet you on your timetable. [00:03:59.21] spk_4:
In some cases, we knew the leaders before we approach them, but that was a really not very many of them did we know? So we really wanted to get a kind of a sampling of folks from the different, if you will, the verticals in the nonprofit sector. Because if you look for books on leadership, you find hundreds of corporate books, but not very many non profit books. And when we looked for non profit books on leadership, we found one for Christian leaders. One for Jewish leaders, one for museum directors. Ah, but not one for leaders who who work in any number of health, the environment. Education. So we really trying to get a broad sample of missions on dhe segments? [00:04:21.51] spk_0:
Okay, So you thought through this project we did it is not just slapdash, no. Okay. Thrown together. All right, so the book is worthwhile. All right. I’m gonna make sure we got the brightest minds here. We’re gonna be talking for an hour. I don’t want to be. When we talk about advice from lackluster, lackluster leaders, we wouldn’t [00:04:23.97] spk_5:
We wouldn’t dream of having [00:04:29.10] spk_0:
poor performers. No, no, no, no. Okay. Okay. Um, now, you you mentioned before we went on air. You’re back in your neighborhood. This is the West seventies. Very comfortable to you. [00:04:35.28] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. I love for 15 years. [00:04:37.67] spk_0:
A life experiences, right? Yes. Within a few blocks of [00:04:41.89] spk_4:
Yes. Yes, Like a trip down memory lane. [00:04:43.23] spk_0:
All right. You said, uh, you said married. You say born. No, You weren’t born here. No married? [00:04:50.51] spk_4:
No, no. Married when I was single. Then I was married for the first time. And then I was divorced, [00:04:54.56] spk_0:
all within a few blocks of [00:04:55.62] spk_4:
all within a few blocks [00:05:01.84] spk_0:
with studio in West 72nd Street. All right, cool. Any place is Ah. Look familiar. The bank on the corner, Chase Bank. Oh, that’s where you had to divide your accounts. It’s where you go in there and get them to separate your mind. A nice That’s a That’s a lovely memory. Okay. Any other? Any good places? [00:05:13.52] spk_4:
Oh, there’s some wonderful shops on Columbus Avenue [00:05:17.59] spk_0:
top shoes. Still here? Oh, yes. Here’s [00:05:19.72] spk_4:
the shop. I used to shop a tip top there. Good. Good place to share an [00:06:28.06] spk_0:
excellent shoe store. What are, uh, by the way? Yes, I have a couple of shoes. The shoes of the roots I’m wearing today. The rain boots I’m wearing today. Tiptop shoes. Shout out to them. Uh, all right, so that’s free. Free media for them. All right. Um, let’s go back to your book. So you break it down into like, you have. You have a lot of interviews, Um, and you break it down into subjects, and then you and you and Linda comment on, you know, like leadership and getting your house in order and being persistent. It’s okay. So, uh, I I’m certainly gonna give you a chance to talk. About what? What’s tops for you. Like what stands out for you, But I come first. Absolutely. It’s your show. Thank you. Usually, I have to say that, you know, I have to remind guests I appreciate you’re acknowledging that without prompting leadership, I’d like to talk about the leadership leadership section. Huh. Um, you get some advice from, Ah, A few people have been on the show. Actually, Henry Timms has, uh, has been on. So I’m working on getting him back as he has a new book, you know, Does new power? Yes. Fine. Wegner. Figure out what new power is. Yes, and hear how you can embrace it. Own it. So we’re working on getting Henry Timms. Of course he’s the, uh I don’t have a CEO. Whatever. Executive director of 92nd Street y So he says he must, You know, build your your your e I your emotional intelligence as a part of leadership. Talk a little about being that humanist. [00:06:45.01] spk_4:
Yeah. So? So you asked me What? What? What stood out for us? Or you said [00:06:49.38] spk_0:
you were gonna let me about it comes if you if you can blend them together. That’s very talented, [00:06:53.54] spk_4:
right? So, in fact, the [00:06:56.15] spk_0:
don’t bother asking you later. [00:07:40.04] spk_4:
The emotional intelligence of the leaders we spoke to was really, really striking. Tow us, Really striking. So and Henry Timms, I mean, almost to a person. And even if they admitted to not having been so emotionally intelligent when they were younger, they really, really focused on becoming that. And they clearly were. They admitted when they were wrong, they were able to turn tragedy into something greater. They they were working on diversity equity and inclusion, even if it was uncomfortable. If they were white males, for example, eso So they really they really exhibit kind of the the into to a great degree, the characteristics that you would want in a person you worked for? [00:07:46.82] spk_0:
Yeah. Admitting you’re wrong. Yes. A bunch of people have touched on that. Yes, uh, being having uncomfortable conversations, um, sharing with staff when you’re not confident in something. Yes. You know, anything you want to flush out about why that makes you a good leader. [00:08:05.13] spk_4:
Well, I think it’s it makes you a good leader in the in the 21st century. I don’t think it probably did in the past when leadership was about command and control and right. So but But in the 21st century, where, um, [00:08:18.42] spk_0:
we’re here now? Yeah. This current? [00:08:25.89] spk_4:
Yeah, where information is so readily available to everyone. It’s really important to be honest and vulnerable with your staff because they’re They’re probably gonna find out anyway if you [00:08:46.53] spk_0:
Yeah. No, I’m sorry. I raised my She’s just so, like I wantto say the s o r. Scared her by raising my hand. Um, yeah. People think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. I think it’s actually sign of strength. It’s a sign of confidence that you are willing to be vulnerable in front of staff and audience, whatever. [00:08:58.02] spk_4:
Right? But that’s because you’re a modern man. [00:09:00.54] spk_0:
Thank you. All right, well, on that, we gotta go for a break. You believe that? All right, hold that thought. We’re gonna come back to that that immediate thought. [00:09:32.70] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Do you need that kind of C p a. Would that be helpful for you wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to big impact. [00:09:34.73] spk_0:
Now, let’s go back to Vivian Hexter. Um all right, So what was the last thing you said? Uh, it was a very poignant sentence. You said [00:09:40.82] spk_4:
I said, You’re That’s because you’re a modern man. [00:09:57.83] spk_0:
Was it? Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Thank you for refreshing my recollection. Yes. Okay. We’ll come back to that point a few times. Um, yeah. No, but I think vulnerability is a very good sign of confidence and and strong leadership. I mean, in front of an audience or your staff or whatever. You know, it’s a sign of strength and confidence, I think. [00:10:00.49] spk_4:
Yeah, right, Right. And I think so, too. And so do the leaders in the book. I would say not everybody believes that right? In an hour analysis. This is one of the things that really is a sign of emotional intelligence and of being a great leader for the modern, for the modern, non profit, and I would argue corporate era. [00:10:42.34] spk_0:
Okay, Excellent. And, uh, self awareness, too. I guess that’s all Rats wrapped up really? In every Yeah, right. Yes, I D’oh! D’oh! Okay, um, see what l see. If it’s ah, exploring, there’s some, uh, there’s some thoughts about exploring life and work. You you make some points about, um, be an explorer. There’s some advice in the book about not following the path that others follow right out of college. You know, follow your own path. But But you and Linda also have some commentary on being an explorer in life and work. [00:11:19.88] spk_4:
Yes. So I think a lot of a number of our leaders said you should really make sure that when you’re in your twenties, you get out of the environment in which you grew up and go somewhere else. So if you are not able to go overseas, go to another state. If you live in the north, go to the south. If you live in the South, go to the North because the experience of living with and working in another culture really is a huge benefit to developing that self awareness, the cultural awareness that is so important to being a leader in the global. [00:11:53.04] spk_0:
How does this help you? I’m not. I’m not opposed to the idea. Although I’d rather see more people from the south coming north than me from the north going south. But, uh, no. How is this? How would this help me, um, expand my my leadership capacity. [00:12:01.31] spk_4:
So when one of the traits of leadership is to be able to put yourself in the other shoes at least I I think so. And if you take if you take yourself out of the environment that you’re most comfortable in that you grew up in and put yourself elsewhere physically, right, you’re gonna be with people, even in the U. S. If you move from the South to the north who are different from you, who think differently, dressed differently, have different pastimes. And certainly if you go abroad, you’re going to be in a completely other culture. So I worked for eight years for F s intercultural program, [00:12:33.38] spk_0:
American Field Service High School. [00:12:38.48] spk_4:
Yes. So I have a real bias on this one. I’ll admit that I that I think that the people who are best able to deal with others and persuade them inspire them. Lead them Lead change with them are those who have really gotten out of their comfort zones When they were early in their careers and gone elsewhere to live and work. [00:12:59.37] spk_0:
So they know how that feels. They could be uncomfortable. So so that encouraging others to do it in your work. Let’s test something that we haven’t done. Let’s try something different. I want we’re gonna explore a program that we have done etcetera. You know what? That vulnerable vulnerability. You know what that feels like? [00:13:14.10] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. Because you lived correct. You live that incredible discomfort of being a stranger in a foreign land. [00:13:30.41] spk_0:
Someone else who’s been a guest on this show that you Ah, you profile on dhe interview is are you finger? We love our Yes, I do, too. CEO of Do something dot or ge took over from Nancy Lublin and then non Now also, of course, they’ve spun off T m I. And she’s Is she the CEO of tea? Mm. No, no, she’s only do something. [00:13:45.22] spk_4:
No, no, she’s radio [00:13:46.66] spk_0:
of C m iles [00:13:47.76] spk_4:
CEO and Chief old person. [00:14:10.84] spk_0:
Old person. Okay. Okay. Of both. Yeah, um so she, she admonishes, may be too strong. I don’t know. She encourages mentor ship Finding a mentor. Yes, finding a mentor when you’re getting started and being a mentor when you’re in the CEO ranks, or as you’re working your way up, what’s the value to the leader? Let go because we’re looking at from leadership perspective. What’s the value of mentoring? [00:14:15.57] spk_4:
The value is number one. You’re reminded where you came from. And if you’re supervising younger employees, which you almost certainly are, that it helps you to be helping someone who’s trying to get a job somewhere. It helps you to remember what it was like [00:14:31.82] spk_0:
mom or empathy. [00:14:52.89] spk_4:
And ah, and it also honestly, to be a mentor feels good. It’s it’s Ah, it’s a way of passing the torch, not passing the torch. Exactly. It’s a way of, um, paying it forward if you will. On and really making sure that the next generation of leaders has the same has has the benefit of your wisdom while you’re still alive. [00:15:03.43] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah. All right. How about for people who are younger, what’s the value of having a mentor? [00:15:20.50] spk_4:
So it really you know, parents often tell their kids what not to do because they did it, and we’re sorry to do it. So you have to be a little careful, I think, because you want to help young people avoid some of the mistakes that you made when you were early in your career. Recognizing that they’re gonna have to make some themselves, you can’t prevent them from making some. But if you can point the way and if you can help them build their networks, which we all know, the networks are just critic [00:15:44.38] spk_0:
critical for growing up. So if you want, if you want to continue in your career, you need tohave. Ah, robust professional network. [00:15:51.51] spk_4:
Yes, yes, and a strong and powerful mentor who has lots of relationships from having been in the field for a long time. And if that person is generous and willing to share some of those relationships with you and introduce you to people, that’s one of the greatest values in mentor ship. [00:16:09.42] spk_0:
Should you pursue a mentor? So now I’m looking at it from the person younger in there, non profit career, Uh, who’s in your organization or now you should really go outside. It’s kind of hard to open up to somebody because they’d be senior to you, right? That’s that. Seems little counterproductive. [00:16:30.17] spk_4:
Yeah, I think it You really have to. If you want an authentic mentor relationship, you have to look outside [00:16:36.34] spk_0:
the organization. Um, any What would you like to say? Now that has your chance. Um, now it’s all here, so your chance spotlight is on you, but leadership? Anything. Ah, you wanna You wanna add about leadership? That didn’t strike me? [00:16:47.94] spk_4:
Um, no. I think what I want to do is talk a little bit about what happened after we did the interviews. Right? Because we had all of this material, right? And from having talked to nearly 50 people. And [00:17:01.47] spk_0:
is it 50 or nearly 50? Now you’re You’re hedging, [00:17:03.69] spk_4:
knows 47 but nearly 50 sounds, you know, more rounder, right? Yeah, [00:17:39.79] spk_0:
but originally reset 50. No, it’s not 50. It’s 46 47 47 years. Structure. Precision. Absolutely. Your zeal. Read 21 profiles in the book, which is which are excellent. And then you’ll get you’ll get quotes from an additional, uh how many? 18 2020 28 people. That would be 40 maybe 49 2026 people. All right, let’s keep it straight on non profit radio. Yeah, absolutely. Don’t let the folks confuse you. No. Nor the guest, either. Okay, [00:18:31.16] spk_4:
Uh, so the so we had all this material, this wonderful material, and we and we knew the book was about leadership because that’s what we set out, that the questions that we asked really were about leadership. But we thought, Oh, go. Oh, boy, The book has to be about something Maur than just leadership. And so what we discovered is that the book is really about the good news and social change. It’s about the how to make a lasting positive social change because many of the leaders we spoke with are actually doing that every day, making positive social change, often without a lot of fanfare, because it’s the nonprofit sector and no one has the money, the advertising budget that a Coca Cola or Pepsi has. And so So we wanted to do a couple things. We wanted people to recognize that in a time when there’s lots of not so good stuff happening, that there actually is a lot [00:18:41.69] spk_0:
of a lot of good stuff [00:19:06.11] spk_4:
happening. We wanted more people to know about that. Good stuff. Ah, and we wanted people to be ableto learn from the steps that these leaders outlined for us that became the principles of seven principles that bracket the book. We wanted people to be able to learn from that to make change in their own communities. Let you know. I mean, if they’re working in their own communities, it could be their states, their countries. But the idea is that there’s practical knowledge to be gained here as well as sort of principles. And what have you [00:19:50.59] spk_0:
Yeah. No. And yeah, I like the details. I mean, that’s why you know, I like, you know, like find a mentor. Mentor? Yes. No. Up your game in. Ah, in emotional intelligence, etcetera. Yeah. All right. Um, can we Ah, I’d like to Ah, getting your house in order in your own organization upto up to where it should be. Right? Principle number two. Yeah, why don’t you Why don’t you overview that and why? It’s important to walk the walk and, um and then, you know, I’ll ask you I ask you something that stuck out for me. [00:21:32.30] spk_4:
sure. So what? What are leaders told us? And we we really pretty much knew this already. So it was great to have all these leaders saying It is that if your organization is really functional and a good place to work in all the dimensions of what that means, then it’s going to be much easier for you, for your organization to be innovative and to have employees who stay in the organization rather than move on so quickly. Eso you’ll get good organization, you’ll get good institutional memory, and it’ll just be easier to make the change that that you wish to make that to achieve your mission, it’ll be easier and more effective. Ah, so and again, you know, getting your own house in order. It means a lot of things, right, So we have a sort of a selective list. You could list many, many, many things that a leader should do to make sure that his or her house is in order. But some of them include, and this is this is kind of ah ah, A stereotype Recruit talented, passionate employees. Ah, and then retain them. Ah, make sure you have a number two even if that person is not the obvious successor to you. Ah, those kinds of things, right? So in the kind of the human resource is, um, sphere, right? We thought these were really, really important. Make sure that that you’re working on diversity equity and inclusion. This is a, uh, something that all of our leaders are focused on now. [00:21:35.34] spk_0:
And as a routine part of there. There there, work. It’s not a campaign, no campaign for divers. No, it’s just ongoing, always evolving. It’s always part of their hiring and retaining. [00:22:04.85] spk_4:
Yes, this is It is another thing that really struck us about about what the leaders were saying is that they had you had to start somewhere when if you were working on diversity equity and inclusion and usually you have to start at the top. You know, the CEO would be the one to be the catalyst for it. But then you you could never stop. Uh, you and you had to keep addressing it from different angles and different levels of the organization, and that was something of a surprise to us. [00:22:15.92] spk_0:
One of the people suggest hiring people that are smarter than you and including for your board. And he says, I don’t remember who it is, But he says everybody around him is smarter than him and again, including board. Um, again, you know, that’s that goes back to vulnerability. I mean, obviously, these things overlap, but, you know, getting talented people who fill gaps, that of knowledge that you were in the institution don’t have. [00:22:41.04] spk_4:
Yes, it takes a lot of humility. Yeah. T be able to really do that. You know, everybody says to say it, but it is much harder to do. In practice, you really have to be vulnerable and humble to be able to admit that you don’t have all the skills, and you certainly don’t have a lock on the intelligence. Ah, and that seems to be It seemed to us to us to be a theme. [00:23:34.65] spk_0:
You mentioned the hiring and, um, terror. This one I do know came from Terra Berry, CEO of National Court appointed special advocates. And it was interesting. Very poignant that she herself was a foster child. I did some training for a casa in, uh, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, someplace many years ago. Plan giving training. Um, she likes the idea of having a series of interviews to demonstrate a candidate’s commitment. [00:23:37.11] spk_4:
We thought that was brilliant. [00:23:38.37] spk_0:
You’re dragging them through? Yeah, yeah. You don’t keep showing up. If you have the patience for this, you can tolerate our work. [00:23:43.81] spk_4:
Yes, yes. I thought that was really, really interesting. It’s part of the higher slowly fire quickly. Right. But it takes higher slowly to a whole new level, right where you should You keep creating excuses for the person to come back. Of course, its course. You planned it out right? But they come and they talk to one person, and then they come back and they get a tour, and then they come back and they talk to another person. Then they come back and talk to a volunteer. Or And the idea is that if they and particularly the young person, that if they have the patience to stay with you through a process that takes a couple of months, right, [00:24:20.00] spk_0:
so interesting. Yeah, there are a few a few months [00:24:30.13] spk_4:
that this that this could really, um, weed out some of the young people who just need a job and don’t have any interest in your mission. and really have no interest in the nonprofit sector. [00:24:40.17] spk_0:
Yeah, they’ll just they’ll just drop it. I can’t tolerate that. It’s six along. Okay, um, somebody talks about, and it may have been you and Linda autonomy in decision making, giving employees autonomy, authority to make decisions. [00:25:27.84] spk_4:
So that’s another s o. You know, Now you’ve got the talented, passionate employees, right? And you want to keep them. Ah, and one of the best ways to keep them is to give them autonomy and shale. Pollack house Sharansky, who runs a bank Street College of education. Ah was most articulate. I thought about this idea. Um, he talks about having been a, um, assistant principal in a high school in Queens. Doesn’t really matter. Um, and his boss was really, really clear with him about where they were meeting point a where they want, where he wanted him to get to meeting point B, but giving him great latitude in how to get from point A to point B with point B again being very clearly defined with measurable with metric since and so on. And I think if you think about bright people, they tend not all of them but they tend to want to try things they don’t want to be told what to do all the time. Ah, they really want to have the space to make decisions themselves. And this is what this is. What is meant by having having autonomy in this in this sense, and it’s a really again. It’s a really, really great thing to aspire to. It’s harder to do. [00:26:22.54] spk_0:
Yeah, you have to have a lot of faith in the people you have employed. You have hired, uh, you have to be willing to delegate and give degrees of freedom [00:26:26.40] spk_4:
and not micromanage [00:26:41.31] spk_0:
right and and accept failure because everybody is not gonna make it to point B. You know, they’re gonna get derailed sometimes. Um, all those things I mean those right, those are all difficult. But But you tell me essential for growth, right? For the organization, growth individuals, [00:26:45.90] spk_4:
Absolutely. And the idea being that you’re not, it’s not like you’re not going to check in with them between points and be right, you know, so that the things we’re really going awry, you’re gonna know it pretty early on. Ah, but yes. The idea is that autonomy is a critical part of growing up as as an employee and executive. [00:27:19.15] spk_0:
It’s, um it’s Tom. Tom Dent, a CEO of Ah, Hugh Mentum. Who who says Take work seriously? Not yourself. Right. More humility. More vulnerability? [00:27:45.60] spk_4:
Well, yes. And allowing laughter. Laughter not in the workplace. Yeah, laughter in the workplace. And maybe not just laughter around you, but sometimes laughter at you. You know, you make a silly statement or, you know, think about it. Really takes a lot of emotional intelligence to be able to allow people to laugh with you slash at you. [00:27:51.34] spk_0:
It’s hard to imagine that in an office. [00:27:54.24] spk_5:
Uh, well, [00:27:56.19] spk_4:
I I’ve actually been in on it. [00:28:27.44] spk_0:
That’s why I’m not an employee anymore. Wrong. I pick the wrong places. I would be a terrible employee. Now. I’m so autonomous that I would shoot myself in the interview just in an interview stage. I would, um, but yeah. No, I I’m thinking of the two CEOs. Yeah, there was No. Yeah. Now they would not have tolerated that, but it does with the nineties to, um Yeah, I mean, just yeah, don’t just just just be personable. I mean, just be a person nobody expects in this culture. We don’t We don’t expect perfection from our from our leaders. [00:28:34.35] spk_4:
No. Well, maybe some people. D’oh! Ah, But what? We’re arguing that you that you don’t need to and that you shouldn’t. [00:31:06.62] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software designed from the bottom up. Four Non profits. What does that mean for you? It’s got what nonprofits need. Like fund accounting grant and donor management. Exceptional customer support. Fraud prevention. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take Two. The Legacy fallacy. I’ve been seeing this for years. Uh, plan giving promotional materials that talk about the potential donors legacy will help you plan your legacy. Uh, think about your legacy legacy giving on it. It got to the my, uh, front of my consciousness because I just did a webinar recently, and one of the questions lead with the premise that, you know, I know we have to talk about legacy giving, but and then he went on to ask, ask the rest of the question Um and I, uh I disagreed with his premise that you have to talk about legacy giving, and I disagree with the whole idea that legacy should be an important part of your plan giving promotion. I’ve had thousands of conversations with people in their sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, and very, very rarely I can’t even remember. But I’m gonna I’m just assuming it’s come up once or twice, but it’s extraordinarily rare. Folks are just not thinking of themselves as leaving a legacy, creating a legacy. If your donors are, uh, George Soros or Donald Trump, they probably think of legacy. The average doner, the average plan gift donor. I hardly ever hear it. I can’t remember a time that I did, but I’m being generous. Um, it is not essential to talk about legacy giving, and I don’t think it’s right. I think it’s a mistake. That’s not what your donors are thinking about themselves as a legacy. They just think of themselves as donors as supporting your cause. In their estate plan. There’s more on the video and the video. You know where the video is. It’s called the Legacy fallacy, and it’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Stick to let us continue with Vivian Hexter and big impact. [00:31:27.78] spk_0:
Thank you, Vivian Dexter for obliging me. Ah, well, I do that. Thank everybody. Vivian. Of course. Co author of the book with Linda Hartley. Big impact. Um, there are consultancy is H two growth strategies dot com. Um, yeah. So I have someone I want to ask you about. That I think you blew it. The company name age to grow. It should be a TSH to grow. You should stop hte and then you get the water. Get the H two grand. I get the h two Hexter and Hartley. I get that h to grow. We should be h to grow And then we feed your roots We water your leaves. I don’t You know you could It’s to grow. [00:31:47.90] spk_4:
Oh, wow. What? We’ll have to We’ll have to look and see [00:31:49.89] spk_0:
take and should be h to grow [00:31:51.72] spk_4:
Yeah, you’d be surprised by how difficult it is. Or maybe you wouldn’t be to get a girl that’s not taken [00:32:41.24] spk_0:
tony-martignetti dot com was not to Ah, wasn’t is not very popular. Now I got to compete with the martignetti liquor dynasty up in the Boston Massachusetts era. Uh, you said you You told me earlier. You vacation on Cape Time? God, Do you know the martignetti liquor dynasty? A liquor stores, maybe. All right, there. They’re up there. You direct their supermarkets of liquor. Maybe Maybe our listeners. A lot of the settlers in Somerville, Mass. May know them, but these air supermarkets not just look corner stores. And but I got tony-martignetti dot com. I don’t know. Maybe they don’t have any Tony’s I don’t know. Um, I couldn’t get martignetti dot com They have that, uh, liquor barons. Okay. Um, I was also gonna owe Gilda’s club. Yeah, the red doors. Yeah. Yeah. You were CEO of Guilt for years. [00:32:55.70] spk_4:
I waas and ah, it’s a wonderful organization. It’s now part of the wellness community. It merged with the wellness community after I left. At the time, we had maybe [00:33:03.95] spk_0:
drive it into the ground, did it then? That’s why they merge. Know that there were There were inference. You made the inference available. I want us. I want to feel [00:33:45.36] spk_4:
Yeah. Okay, go for it. So there were about 30 Gilda’s clubs throughout North America and I had to visit everyone. Ah, and we I inherited an organization where the founder and principal funder was us was beginning to, um, not want to be the sole supporter of the organization any longer, okay? And so we had to build the board, and I have a board that would really contribute in fundraise a significant amount. And we, um we doubled the revenue in the time I was there. We developed? Yeah, it was It was a good It’s a wonderful organization, you know? It provides emotional and social support for people with cancer, Their families and friends. [00:34:13.51] spk_0:
Yes. Oh, families and friends, too. I was just for the cancer patient survivor. No, not true. Okay, um let’s see, uh, what would you like to talk about? I have other topics. I want good, But what what strikes you about all these 47 interviews? What? What moves you the most? [00:34:16.64] spk_4:
It was inspiring to talk to these leaders. [00:34:19.59] spk_0:
Inspiration? That’s one of things I want to talk about. All right. [00:34:29.51] spk_4:
It’s really, really inspiring. I mean, Thio be able. You know, we asked some fairly intimate questions like, What’s the What’s the worst and best thing that’s ever happened to you in your life? And what did [00:34:36.91] spk_0:
you mean? What’s your definition of happiness. Yes. You know, all these interviews face to face, [00:34:40.80] spk_4:
many of them were face to face. Any [00:34:42.79] spk_0:
of them were my phone probably tried to do face. We tried to do it face to [00:36:07.53] spk_4:
face. Yes, but even even on the phone, right. These and and in many in most instances, in some instances, wth e leaders had asked to see the questions beforehand. But in some instances, they had not seen them. So they were really kind of, um uh, we got there sort of their raw, fresh first response to some of these questions and it really the way that many of them have turned tragedy into achievement into empathy into mission. It’s really you mentioned Tara Perry at the National Casa. Ah, and you know Leon Botstein at Bard College, whose daughter was killed when she was seven years old, crossing the street to get to the bus. Ah, and he, you know, that was early on in his time at Bard. And, uh, he said, you know, his first impulse was to throw himself out the window, but what he did was he built, barred into really ah force to be reckoned with and and highly innovative place. You know, they were the first to teach in prisons, or among the first Ah, they were They haven’t this early college, which they now have not just in the U. S. But around the world where kids can earn associate degrees in there. Four years of high school. Ah, and so is highly innovative place. Um And he So I one has to believe, right, that he took that tragedy and sort of turned that took that anger, energy, whatever, and put it into building barred into the institution that it is [00:36:22.65] spk_0:
for Children. I mean, well, not for for for college students, but you know that his child never got to be [00:36:28.16] spk_4:
Yes, yes. Oh, yes. So So it’s really was really inspiring to to hear this, to hear that wisdom and to hear how willing these, uh, leaders were to share with us. So that was another thing that surprised us. We knew a few of them before, but most of them we didn’t know and ah, and we only had I would say, of all the people we asked, we only had one or two turndowns, and that was a very you know, like high level, Incredibly busy. So [00:36:59.73] spk_0:
let’s not focus on the one or two. [00:37:01.13] spk_4:
No, no, no, no. But my point is that [00:37:03.75] spk_0:
going to share [00:37:08.84] spk_4:
willing to share And I think partially again because people don’t ask non profit leaders a lot about their strategies and their insight. They ask corporate leaders, right, not non profit leaders. So to be able to talk about what was important to them and how they got into where they are and what they see for the future was really, um, really felt good to them. Ah, and and we’re hopeful that the people who read the book will want to learn more about some of these organizations and possibly support [00:37:59.65] spk_0:
them At least let it certainly learned and get inspired by the book. Get the book, for Pete’s sake. It sze called big impact. Um, just get the thing, you know, we can’t We can’t cover it all in an hour. Um, now No, she she endorses. No, certainly not. Um, persistence. Another another ah. Topic you get you to talk about, um somebody says somebody says, Oh, this is ah, Evan Wolfson, president of Freedom to Marry. You cannot win every battle, but Lou’s forward. What you talking about, [00:39:22.67] spk_4:
what he’s saying? For So, for example, so a freedom to marry Waas, one of the key organizations in winning legalization of gay marriage, equality. And Evan worked on this for 32 years from the time he wrote his law school thesis about it. And I have to say he Evan is brilliant. Ah, and he described to us some of the strategies that freedom to marry and its coalition used to win gay marriage. And when he talks about losing forward, want an example of that is going to the South and having an having activity campaigns in the South, even though he knew they knew it would be much more difficult to get people in the South to really before gay marriage. But they knew they had to engage with the people in the South. They had to engage all over the country. And, um, the same is true, you know, in certain cultures, arm or conservative, like the Latino culture. Ah, and they engage. They had they had campaigns with Latinos, they had campaigns with African Americans, and they just kept pushing forward, even though again they knew that they weren’t gonna win everybody’s. They weren’t gonna win all hearts and minds, right? Onley only enough to make it happen. [00:40:30.86] spk_0:
So there’s the inspiration. He worked on this for over 30 years of his law school thesis. Yes, Excuse me. And, um, you know, there’s there’s someone who’s been on the show. Paul Lo Big wrote a book called The Impossible Will Take a little while. You know, you have to stay with this somebody someone of one of the people you you interview says that a profound change takes time. That might have been you. And Linda said that a profound change takes time. Um, but you know, that’s part of the inspiration that, to me that which feeding that is the, uh, the vision that the leader brings to the organization and and the incremental steps toward that vision, whether it’s eliminating poverty, you know, in ah, in metropolitan Boston, you know, whatever it is that that commitment division and then and bringing people together who said who loved who support that vision and are willing to work at it for 30 years [00:40:38.24] spk_4:
and celebrate the small victories right and and really be good at doing that. Celebrate the small victories and making sure that your people are taking care of themselves so that they don’t get burnt out. [00:40:56.79] spk_0:
Life balance. Yeah, One of your I think it’s I have a bill. Bill Uhlfelder talks about life balance and says, If you’re if you’re waiting to get kind of connected your family over vacations and sabbaticals, you know, you’re you’re losing your family. Yes. Balance, right? Yes. It’s essential for persistence. [00:41:24.28] spk_4:
Well, it is. It is. So this is one where our leaders were sort of all over the map. Okay? Most of them were striving for work. Life balance, right, Most of them. And then a few were unapologetically workaholic. And one said, um, there’s no such thing as work, life, balance. There’s just life, and work is a part of it. That was Larry Kramer at the William [00:41:33.98] spk_0:
and Flora Hewlett Foundation. No, life is a part of it. All right, That’s fair. That’s yes. That’s a decent Balan, [00:41:38.49] spk_4:
right? I objective. Yes. Yeah, I think I think Larry works pretty hard. [00:41:49.72] spk_0:
Okay. Um all right, well, yeah. Um, it’s something. It’s a life practice. [00:41:51.32] spk_4:
Absolutely. I’m I’m sort of joking. Yes, we. We believe that work life balance is essential, particularly when you’re working on seemingly intractable problems that will take a while to solve. [00:42:03.00] spk_0:
Impossible will take a little while. All right, [00:42:30.00] spk_3:
Time for our last break. Do you ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they worked to build relationships with journalists. Who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do that. Their former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage there at turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for big impact [00:43:05.74] spk_0:
animated and then bring it back down. What a talent on what? A talent. It’s just unfortunate that one took prompting. Um, okay, so yes, we’re striving for balance. It’s a life’s practice. Don’t give it up. I mean, don’t just don’t just, ah, surrender and say my family’s gotta wait. No, My loved ones have to rate my friends, even friends go to your go to a college reunion now and then. High school reunion now and then connect. Yes. Okay. Anything. What? You want to say that Yes, like you’re exhausted. It It’s just essential right? [00:43:07.96] spk_4:
It’s it’s essential, but both Linda and I believe strongly in it. [00:43:34.70] spk_0:
I was just at a college reunion last weekend. Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon. Uh oh. Fraternity. A bunch of guys got together. So it’s on my mind on my mind. And plus I’m always admonishing. I probably am. I’m not just encouraging are probably I’m admonishing. That’s I think that’s the right word. Listeners through the show and videos like sometimes wag my finger in a video. Um, take time for yourself. You know, if you want to give your in a giving profession if you want to give effectively, I think you have to take yes. And taking is being selfish and taking time for yourself and your family, and sometimes even just for yourself, like quiet solitude kind of time. If you want to give, I believe you have to take [00:43:51.55] spk_4:
yes, yes, and all too often I think in nonprofits, the feeling of there’s great. Believe it, feeling of intensity about having to accomplish the mission. So it’s hard to to do that to take the time that is essential [00:44:16.57] spk_0:
you got. And you gotta make the time, right? Yeah, Zach is gonna find it. I can never find the time. Yeah, well, time is not gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, here I am. You found me. You gotta affirmatively make the time. Yes, yes. Don’t keep trying to find it. No, not gonna. It’s not gonna make itself apparent to, you [00:44:23.13] spk_4:
know. And it’ll be uncomfortable at first to take the time. [00:44:28.04] spk_0:
Yeah, right. The first time you may [00:44:30.12] spk_4:
be the first half doesn’t [00:44:48.63] spk_0:
I’m abandoning ship. Yeah. How are they gonna get along without Yeah? Well, you need to have the humility to recognize that they can write. All right. See how this all fits together. Just get the book, for God’s sake, it so it all fits together. Um, okay. Uh, you mentioned Larry Kramer Hewlett Foundation, did you not? Yes. Is it? He says relationships matter in this in this persistence and, um, drive toward mission. You know, relationships talk about relationships. [00:45:25.55] spk_4:
So what Larry is saying, it actually is that for him, life is all about relationships. It’s more than just the mission, right? You know, it is the mission, but to him, it’s it’s That’s what That’s what it’s about. And I think it’s particularly important in the nonprofit world because so many of the missions of the organizations that we work in are have social missions right there about either caring for people or teaching people to care for themselves. Or and so it’s really, really important to be able to relate well to people because there’s also the fact that in the nonprofit sector you can’t play. P pent can’t pay people top dollar Ah, and so there have to there have to be other benefits toe working inside a non profit. And one of those is having caring relationships with the people you work with [00:45:59.34] spk_0:
and also organizational relationships. Partnering type Liz Yes, lash out that [00:46:42.37] spk_4:
because these days, right? So number one funders like partnerships increasingly. And you know, we have lots and lots of non profits in this country over a 1,000,000 of them, and maybe a few too many on the ah lot of the missions of those organizations are complimentary on, and so I think it’s really incumbent on organizations to make strategic partnerships a priority. It’s it’s it’s It’s critical not only because funding is limited, because funders like partnerships, but because you get more done for less money. [00:47:07.14] spk_0:
Yeah. There’s a synergy. Yes. Uh, we’ve had guests on talking about how to find the right partners. Get your board by in the board. The board process of formal partnerships and things. Um, yes. All right. So explore those, you know, Think about those, um, So I’m gonna turn back to you. Let’s talk about something that interests you in the book that we haven’t talked about yet. Great. You know, gets all your book. She’s she’s I feel I feel bad for the guests to bring notes or but she’s in that Vivian doesn’t know what she’s been clutching her book, but they never get a chance to read the notes. They bring them, they feel security. I tell them they won’t have time. They hold the notes anyway. And then, um, they never get a chance to look at them because, you know, because we’re having a conversation. What did you find? You. You peruse your table of contents? Yes, I did. [00:47:43.08] spk_4:
I did. So I I want to go back to Evan Wolfson because I really think that if you read the interview with Evan Wolfson that that interview is kind of a lesson in how to make social change evidence. The on Lee, one of the 47 leaders who has accomplished his mission completely and disbanded his organization. [00:47:59.77] spk_0:
That’s that’s telling that never happens. Usually, organizations expand to find a new mission. [00:49:28.46] spk_4:
So Evan now is, ah, high level advisor to other countries around the world that where people are trying to get gay marriage legalized, and he also consults to some. I think now he’s consulting to immigration organizations in this country to try to help them. Ah, but he no longer has an organization himself, and I think his, um the the understanding, how freedom to marry and it’s coalitions achieved. The mission is it’s really instructive. It’s really a It’s like a primer in how to make positive social change. Because he did, he did all of it. They got He got really clear about the goal. That’s one of the principles and learned how to articulate it persuasively and and specifically, at a certain point, learned that if you made it about, um, the legal aspect of of gay marriage in the public eye, it was not gonna be as effective as if you talked about giving people um, make having people be ableto love who they wanted to love. At a certain point in the campaign, they really switched the way they talked about gay marriage, and that was really critical to it becoming possible. Uh, and then another principle is build. So you have to campaign on many fronts you have, and you have to build broad based coalition. [00:49:36.39] spk_0:
Let’s talk about the many fronts. That’s a section of the book. Yeah, [00:50:30.83] spk_4:
so the the idea is that you really this is sort of the partnership idea is part of part of this, that you can’t do it alone and that if you’re not striving to influence the private sector and government, which are the two dominant sectors in our economy, then you’re really not going to make lasting social change. And so you have to work with those sectors. You have to learn how to talk to those sectors on, and, um, and you have to be working on lots of different levels all at once, because otherwise it’s not gonna happen. And that includes, um, working with faith based organizations, which some people, some organizations, know how to do, and others don’t but and again. Leon Botstein at Bard makes a really, really interesting point about this. He says that somehow a lot of us, particularly on the coast, I guess have sort of decided that, um, faith based organizations are not important anymore that, you know, because of the increasing secularization of our society that we don’t need to worry about them. But the truth is that they’re very particularly in the middle of the [00:50:55.18] spk_0:
country. So that may be true in some parts of very powerful on a vast board, [00:51:15.10] spk_4:
right? Very, very powerful. And we And if you really want to make social change in your community, you’re gonna have to work with those organizations because they’re often the ones that are already working on it, right? They have. They have the soup kitchen. They have the, um, the homeless shelter. You know, they’re they’re already actively engaged in making change or taking care of the people in their communities. And so you really have to reach out to them. [00:51:57.41] spk_0:
And they’re in the community there. Yes, there the communities, they know the local leaders, whether they’re the official leaders of the unofficial leaders, if you want to work in it, Yeah. If you wanna make real change and work in the grassroots, you need to know who the unofficial leaders are. Direct in the community. Yes. And your faith based the the organization’s Know that stuff? Yes. There, there, they’ve been They’ve been there for decades and generations. Yes. Okay. Um, yeah. So you Ah, you’re sort of where we just have a couple minutes left together. What? What struck you about some of the questions you got answers. You got to the question. You asked everybody. How do you define happiness? [00:52:43.25] spk_4:
So, you know, it’s Ah, that’s a highly personal question, right? I mean, in the sense in the sense that it’s different for everyone and some of our leaders, because their lives are so frenetic, all they want is peace and quiet. To them, that’s happiness. But that’s regal. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then for some, it’s being with their families and, you know, spending time with the people they love. Ah, and you know, interestingly when we had not a lot of them said, um, you know, happiness is sitting at my desk for 12 hours a day for [00:52:51.10] spk_0:
a lot of money or [00:52:52.24] spk_4:
a lot of No, no, that not this group. Not this girl. Now and again. That’s part of the emotional intelligence, right? Isn’t understanding what really makes life worth living, which is relationships and meaningful work and all of those things. [00:53:11.60] spk_0:
Okay, um, let’s see. What do you love about the work you’re doing? [00:53:24.08] spk_4:
Well, I’ve always been mission driven tony out. You know, I got an MBA, and I tried to work in the corporate world, but I wasn’t happy. And Senator, Lord and Taylor, I was there in that fire lord, and then I was that I was at best foods as a product manager. Didn’t work. No. No. And so what really makes me happy is, um, is helping to make positive change in the world. I mean, that’s and helping the underdog. I’ve always wanted to help the underdog. [00:54:01.32] spk_0:
You gotta leave it there. All right. She’s Vivian Dexter. Get the book, For God’s sake. It’s called big Impact insights and strategies from America’s Big Impact Insights and Stories. Who wrote strategies. I needed an intern to blame for this insights and stories from America’s non profit leaders. If I had an intern, they’d be fired. If you want to recommend anybody, Let me know. [00:54:37.28] spk_3:
Next week it Zombie loyalists with Peter Shankman. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Creative [00:54:50.27] spk_2:
producer is clear. My off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that information, Scotty With me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great [00:55:16.89] spk_7:
talking alternative radio 24 hours a day. [00:55:33.32] spk_2:
Do you run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, The entrepreneurial Web tune in every Friday at noon, Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. Right here on Fridays at noon, talk radio dot N.Y.C., [00:56:02.75] spk_5:
aptly named host of tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% fundraising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at tony-martignetti non profit radio Fridays 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com [00:56:32.09] spk_8:
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Hello and welcome to [00:01:19.44] spk_3:
tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% of your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with excess dough, sis if you shared the boneheaded idea that you missed today’s show. Big impact. Let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change. Vivian Hexter is co author of the book Big Impact, and she shares lessons and reflections from the author’s interviews for their book that originally aired April 27th. 2018 on tony Steak to the Legacy Fallacy were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s a big impact. [00:02:12.88] spk_0:
It feels so good to be back in the studio and to have a guest in the studio. She’s Vivian Hexter. She’s sitting here life. It’s unbelievable. She’s right here during extra, she’s co author with Linda Hartley of the book Big Impact insights and strategies from America’s non profit leaders. She’s a principal also with Linda Hartley of H two growth Strategies. I’m gonna ask her if she does anything without Linda Hartley if they’re married or they’re married to each other’s brothers or something. I don’t know. Um, also talking about this company name. I think you blew it, but we’ll get to that. Um, So what do Vivian and Linda do in H two growth strategies? They advise nonprofits and foundations in strategies, effective marketing and increasing revenues both earned and contributed. She also coaches executives. She was CEO of Gilda’s Club Worldwide. You know them? The red doors. Everybody knows them. They are at H two growth strategies dot com, and she is at the Hexter. Welcome, Vivian Dexter. [00:02:20.84] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. It’s great to be here [00:02:26.12] spk_0:
for pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Um, this book You, uh you interviewed lots of people. We did Hominy, Hominy, non profit leaders. Did you seek out [00:02:31.76] spk_4:
near it Turned out to be nearly 50 [00:02:38.40] spk_0:
50. Okay, but the cover only has 21 pictures that the top 21 of the 50 [00:02:40.16] spk_4:
those air the 21 who are featured [00:02:48.15] spk_0:
those eyes that how it works. Okay, those are the ones I read about that featured okay through. But then you had quotes from another 39. That’s that’s right. Okay. Over how many years you you talk to these people. [00:02:58.61] spk_4:
So the process from start to finish took us about two years. The process of interviewing and then writing and editing and publishing the [00:03:06.36] spk_0:
book. Now, how do we know that you’ve got the best 50 non profit minds? How did you select out of the thousands that are available? Really? [00:03:11.24] spk_4:
Well, I have to say it’s a highly highly subjective [00:03:14.12] spk_0:
list. Your friends Well, ones that would meet you on your timetable. [00:03:59.21] spk_4:
In some cases, we knew the leaders before we approach them, but that was a really not very many of them did we know? So we really wanted to get a kind of a sampling of folks from the different, if you will, the verticals in the nonprofit sector. Because if you look for books on leadership, you find hundreds of corporate books, but not very many non profit books. And when we looked for non profit books on leadership, we found one for Christian leaders. One for Jewish leaders, one for museum directors. Ah, but not one for leaders who who work in any number of health, the environment. Education. So we really trying to get a broad sample of missions on dhe segments? [00:04:21.51] spk_0:
Okay, So you thought through this project we did it is not just slapdash, no. Okay. Thrown together. All right, so the book is worthwhile. All right. I’m gonna make sure we got the brightest minds here. We’re gonna be talking for an hour. I don’t want to be. When we talk about advice from lackluster, lackluster leaders, we wouldn’t [00:04:23.97] spk_5:
We wouldn’t dream of having [00:04:29.10] spk_0:
poor performers. No, no, no, no. Okay. Okay. Um, now, you you mentioned before we went on air. You’re back in your neighborhood. This is the West seventies. Very comfortable to you. [00:04:35.28] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. I love for 15 years. [00:04:37.67] spk_0:
A life experiences, right? Yes. Within a few blocks of [00:04:41.89] spk_4:
Yes. Yes, Like a trip down memory lane. [00:04:43.23] spk_0:
All right. You said, uh, you said married. You say born. No, You weren’t born here. No married? [00:04:50.51] spk_4:
No, no. Married when I was single. Then I was married for the first time. And then I was divorced, [00:04:54.56] spk_0:
all within a few blocks of [00:04:55.62] spk_4:
all within a few blocks [00:05:01.84] spk_0:
with studio in West 72nd Street. All right, cool. Any place is Ah. Look familiar. The bank on the corner, Chase Bank. Oh, that’s where you had to divide your accounts. It’s where you go in there and get them to separate your mind. A nice That’s a That’s a lovely memory. Okay. Any other? Any good places? [00:05:13.52] spk_4:
Oh, there’s some wonderful shops on Columbus Avenue [00:05:17.59] spk_0:
top shoes. Still here? Oh, yes. Here’s [00:05:19.72] spk_4:
the shop. I used to shop a tip top there. Good. Good place to share an [00:06:28.06] spk_0:
excellent shoe store. What are, uh, by the way? Yes, I have a couple of shoes. The shoes of the roots I’m wearing today. The rain boots I’m wearing today. Tiptop shoes. Shout out to them. Uh, all right, so that’s free. Free media for them. All right. Um, let’s go back to your book. So you break it down into like, you have. You have a lot of interviews, Um, and you break it down into subjects, and then you and you and Linda comment on, you know, like leadership and getting your house in order and being persistent. It’s okay. So, uh, I I’m certainly gonna give you a chance to talk. About what? What’s tops for you. Like what stands out for you, But I come first. Absolutely. It’s your show. Thank you. Usually, I have to say that, you know, I have to remind guests I appreciate you’re acknowledging that without prompting leadership, I’d like to talk about the leadership leadership section. Huh. Um, you get some advice from, Ah, A few people have been on the show. Actually, Henry Timms has, uh, has been on. So I’m working on getting him back as he has a new book, you know, Does new power? Yes. Fine. Wegner. Figure out what new power is. Yes, and hear how you can embrace it. Own it. So we’re working on getting Henry Timms. Of course he’s the, uh I don’t have a CEO. Whatever. Executive director of 92nd Street y So he says he must, You know, build your your your e I your emotional intelligence as a part of leadership. Talk a little about being that humanist. [00:06:45.01] spk_4:
Yeah. So? So you asked me What? What? What stood out for us? Or you said [00:06:49.38] spk_0:
you were gonna let me about it comes if you if you can blend them together. That’s very talented, [00:06:53.54] spk_4:
right? So, in fact, the [00:06:56.15] spk_0:
don’t bother asking you later. [00:07:40.04] spk_4:
The emotional intelligence of the leaders we spoke to was really, really striking. Tow us, Really striking. So and Henry Timms, I mean, almost to a person. And even if they admitted to not having been so emotionally intelligent when they were younger, they really, really focused on becoming that. And they clearly were. They admitted when they were wrong, they were able to turn tragedy into something greater. They they were working on diversity equity and inclusion, even if it was uncomfortable. If they were white males, for example, eso So they really they really exhibit kind of the the into to a great degree, the characteristics that you would want in a person you worked for? [00:07:46.82] spk_0:
Yeah. Admitting you’re wrong. Yes. A bunch of people have touched on that. Yes, uh, being having uncomfortable conversations, um, sharing with staff when you’re not confident in something. Yes. You know, anything you want to flush out about why that makes you a good leader. [00:08:05.13] spk_4:
Well, I think it’s it makes you a good leader in the in the 21st century. I don’t think it probably did in the past when leadership was about command and control and right. So but But in the 21st century, where, um, [00:08:18.42] spk_0:
we’re here now? Yeah. This current? [00:08:25.89] spk_4:
Yeah, where information is so readily available to everyone. It’s really important to be honest and vulnerable with your staff because they’re They’re probably gonna find out anyway if you [00:08:46.53] spk_0:
Yeah. No, I’m sorry. I raised my She’s just so, like I wantto say the s o r. Scared her by raising my hand. Um, yeah. People think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. I think it’s actually sign of strength. It’s a sign of confidence that you are willing to be vulnerable in front of staff and audience, whatever. [00:08:58.02] spk_4:
Right? But that’s because you’re a modern man. [00:09:00.54] spk_0:
Thank you. All right, well, on that, we gotta go for a break. You believe that? All right, hold that thought. We’re gonna come back to that that immediate thought. [00:09:32.70] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. We have used the service’s of wegner-C.P.As for many years. Their service is excellent. The auditors provide clear directions and timetables. They’re professional and thorough, but also easy to work with. They answer questions promptly. End quote. That’s an HR professional in Hillsborough, North Carolina. Do you need that kind of C p a. Would that be helpful for you wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to big impact. [00:09:34.73] spk_0:
Now, let’s go back to Vivian Hexter. Um all right, So what was the last thing you said? Uh, it was a very poignant sentence. You said [00:09:40.82] spk_4:
I said, You’re That’s because you’re a modern man. [00:09:57.83] spk_0:
Was it? Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Thank you for refreshing my recollection. Yes. Okay. We’ll come back to that point a few times. Um, yeah. No, but I think vulnerability is a very good sign of confidence and and strong leadership. I mean, in front of an audience or your staff or whatever. You know, it’s a sign of strength and confidence, I think. [00:10:00.49] spk_4:
Yeah, right, Right. And I think so, too. And so do the leaders in the book. I would say not everybody believes that right? In an hour analysis. This is one of the things that really is a sign of emotional intelligence and of being a great leader for the modern, for the modern, non profit, and I would argue corporate era. [00:10:42.34] spk_0:
Okay, Excellent. And, uh, self awareness, too. I guess that’s all Rats wrapped up really? In every Yeah, right. Yes, I D’oh! D’oh! Okay, um, see what l see. If it’s ah, exploring, there’s some, uh, there’s some thoughts about exploring life and work. You you make some points about, um, be an explorer. There’s some advice in the book about not following the path that others follow right out of college. You know, follow your own path. But But you and Linda also have some commentary on being an explorer in life and work. [00:11:19.88] spk_4:
Yes. So I think a lot of a number of our leaders said you should really make sure that when you’re in your twenties, you get out of the environment in which you grew up and go somewhere else. So if you are not able to go overseas, go to another state. If you live in the north, go to the south. If you live in the South, go to the North because the experience of living with and working in another culture really is a huge benefit to developing that self awareness, the cultural awareness that is so important to being a leader in the global. [00:11:53.04] spk_0:
How does this help you? I’m not. I’m not opposed to the idea. Although I’d rather see more people from the south coming north than me from the north going south. But, uh, no. How is this? How would this help me, um, expand my my leadership capacity. [00:12:01.31] spk_4:
So when one of the traits of leadership is to be able to put yourself in the other shoes at least I I think so. And if you take if you take yourself out of the environment that you’re most comfortable in that you grew up in and put yourself elsewhere physically, right, you’re gonna be with people, even in the U. S. If you move from the South to the north who are different from you, who think differently, dressed differently, have different pastimes. And certainly if you go abroad, you’re going to be in a completely other culture. So I worked for eight years for F s intercultural program, [00:12:33.38] spk_0:
American Field Service High School. [00:12:38.48] spk_4:
Yes. So I have a real bias on this one. I’ll admit that I that I think that the people who are best able to deal with others and persuade them inspire them. Lead them Lead change with them are those who have really gotten out of their comfort zones When they were early in their careers and gone elsewhere to live and work. [00:12:59.37] spk_0:
So they know how that feels. They could be uncomfortable. So so that encouraging others to do it in your work. Let’s test something that we haven’t done. Let’s try something different. I want we’re gonna explore a program that we have done etcetera. You know what? That vulnerable vulnerability. You know what that feels like? [00:13:14.10] spk_4:
Yes. Yes. Because you lived correct. You live that incredible discomfort of being a stranger in a foreign land. [00:13:30.41] spk_0:
Someone else who’s been a guest on this show that you Ah, you profile on dhe interview is are you finger? We love our Yes, I do, too. CEO of Do something dot or ge took over from Nancy Lublin and then non Now also, of course, they’ve spun off T m I. And she’s Is she the CEO of tea? Mm. No, no, she’s only do something. [00:13:45.22] spk_4:
No, no, she’s radio [00:13:46.66] spk_0:
of C m iles [00:13:47.76] spk_4:
CEO and Chief old person. [00:14:10.84] spk_0:
Old person. Okay. Okay. Of both. Yeah, um so she, she admonishes, may be too strong. I don’t know. She encourages mentor ship Finding a mentor. Yes, finding a mentor when you’re getting started and being a mentor when you’re in the CEO ranks, or as you’re working your way up, what’s the value to the leader? Let go because we’re looking at from leadership perspective. What’s the value of mentoring? [00:14:15.57] spk_4:
The value is number one. You’re reminded where you came from. And if you’re supervising younger employees, which you almost certainly are, that it helps you to be helping someone who’s trying to get a job somewhere. It helps you to remember what it was like [00:14:31.82] spk_0:
mom or empathy. [00:14:52.89] spk_4:
And ah, and it also honestly, to be a mentor feels good. It’s it’s Ah, it’s a way of passing the torch, not passing the torch. Exactly. It’s a way of, um, paying it forward if you will. On and really making sure that the next generation of leaders has the same has has the benefit of your wisdom while you’re still alive. [00:15:03.43] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah. All right. How about for people who are younger, what’s the value of having a mentor? [00:15:20.50] spk_4:
So it really you know, parents often tell their kids what not to do because they did it, and we’re sorry to do it. So you have to be a little careful, I think, because you want to help young people avoid some of the mistakes that you made when you were early in your career. Recognizing that they’re gonna have to make some themselves, you can’t prevent them from making some. But if you can point the way and if you can help them build their networks, which we all know, the networks are just critic [00:15:44.38] spk_0:
critical for growing up. So if you want, if you want to continue in your career, you need tohave. Ah, robust professional network. [00:15:51.51] spk_4:
Yes, yes, and a strong and powerful mentor who has lots of relationships from having been in the field for a long time. And if that person is generous and willing to share some of those relationships with you and introduce you to people, that’s one of the greatest values in mentor ship. [00:16:09.42] spk_0:
Should you pursue a mentor? So now I’m looking at it from the person younger in there, non profit career, Uh, who’s in your organization or now you should really go outside. It’s kind of hard to open up to somebody because they’d be senior to you, right? That’s that. Seems little counterproductive. [00:16:30.17] spk_4:
Yeah, I think it You really have to. If you want an authentic mentor relationship, you have to look outside [00:16:36.34] spk_0:
the organization. Um, any What would you like to say? Now that has your chance. Um, now it’s all here, so your chance spotlight is on you, but leadership? Anything. Ah, you wanna You wanna add about leadership? That didn’t strike me? [00:16:47.94] spk_4:
Um, no. I think what I want to do is talk a little bit about what happened after we did the interviews. Right? Because we had all of this material, right? And from having talked to nearly 50 people. And [00:17:01.47] spk_0:
is it 50 or nearly 50? Now you’re You’re hedging, [00:17:03.69] spk_4:
knows 47 but nearly 50 sounds, you know, more rounder, right? Yeah, [00:17:39.79] spk_0:
but originally reset 50. No, it’s not 50. It’s 46 47 47 years. Structure. Precision. Absolutely. Your zeal. Read 21 profiles in the book, which is which are excellent. And then you’ll get you’ll get quotes from an additional, uh how many? 18 2020 28 people. That would be 40 maybe 49 2026 people. All right, let’s keep it straight on non profit radio. Yeah, absolutely. Don’t let the folks confuse you. No. Nor the guest, either. Okay, [00:18:31.16] spk_4:
Uh, so the so we had all this material, this wonderful material, and we and we knew the book was about leadership because that’s what we set out, that the questions that we asked really were about leadership. But we thought, Oh, go. Oh, boy, The book has to be about something Maur than just leadership. And so what we discovered is that the book is really about the good news and social change. It’s about the how to make a lasting positive social change because many of the leaders we spoke with are actually doing that every day, making positive social change, often without a lot of fanfare, because it’s the nonprofit sector and no one has the money, the advertising budget that a Coca Cola or Pepsi has. And so So we wanted to do a couple things. We wanted people to recognize that in a time when there’s lots of not so good stuff happening, that there actually is a lot [00:18:41.69] spk_0:
of a lot of good stuff [00:19:06.11] spk_4:
happening. We wanted more people to know about that. Good stuff. Ah, and we wanted people to be ableto learn from the steps that these leaders outlined for us that became the principles of seven principles that bracket the book. We wanted people to be able to learn from that to make change in their own communities. Let you know. I mean, if they’re working in their own communities, it could be their states, their countries. But the idea is that there’s practical knowledge to be gained here as well as sort of principles. And what have you [00:19:50.59] spk_0:
Yeah. No. And yeah, I like the details. I mean, that’s why you know, I like, you know, like find a mentor. Mentor? Yes. No. Up your game in. Ah, in emotional intelligence, etcetera. Yeah. All right. Um, can we Ah, I’d like to Ah, getting your house in order in your own organization upto up to where it should be. Right? Principle number two. Yeah, why don’t you Why don’t you overview that and why? It’s important to walk the walk and, um and then, you know, I’ll ask you I ask you something that stuck out for me. [00:21:32.30] spk_4:
sure. So what? What are leaders told us? And we we really pretty much knew this already. So it was great to have all these leaders saying It is that if your organization is really functional and a good place to work in all the dimensions of what that means, then it’s going to be much easier for you, for your organization to be innovative and to have employees who stay in the organization rather than move on so quickly. Eso you’ll get good organization, you’ll get good institutional memory, and it’ll just be easier to make the change that that you wish to make that to achieve your mission, it’ll be easier and more effective. Ah, so and again, you know, getting your own house in order. It means a lot of things, right, So we have a sort of a selective list. You could list many, many, many things that a leader should do to make sure that his or her house is in order. But some of them include, and this is this is kind of ah ah, A stereotype Recruit talented, passionate employees. Ah, and then retain them. Ah, make sure you have a number two even if that person is not the obvious successor to you. Ah, those kinds of things, right? So in the kind of the human resource is, um, sphere, right? We thought these were really, really important. Make sure that that you’re working on diversity equity and inclusion. This is a, uh, something that all of our leaders are focused on now. [00:21:35.34] spk_0:
And as a routine part of there. There there, work. It’s not a campaign, no campaign for divers. No, it’s just ongoing, always evolving. It’s always part of their hiring and retaining. [00:22:04.85] spk_4:
Yes, this is It is another thing that really struck us about about what the leaders were saying is that they had you had to start somewhere when if you were working on diversity equity and inclusion and usually you have to start at the top. You know, the CEO would be the one to be the catalyst for it. But then you you could never stop. Uh, you and you had to keep addressing it from different angles and different levels of the organization, and that was something of a surprise to us. [00:22:15.92] spk_0:
One of the people suggest hiring people that are smarter than you and including for your board. And he says, I don’t remember who it is, But he says everybody around him is smarter than him and again, including board. Um, again, you know, that’s that goes back to vulnerability. I mean, obviously, these things overlap, but, you know, getting talented people who fill gaps, that of knowledge that you were in the institution don’t have. [00:22:41.04] spk_4:
Yes, it takes a lot of humility. Yeah. T be able to really do that. You know, everybody says to say it, but it is much harder to do. In practice, you really have to be vulnerable and humble to be able to admit that you don’t have all the skills, and you certainly don’t have a lock on the intelligence. Ah, and that seems to be It seemed to us to us to be a theme. [00:23:34.65] spk_0:
You mentioned the hiring and, um, terror. This one I do know came from Terra Berry, CEO of National Court appointed special advocates. And it was interesting. Very poignant that she herself was a foster child. I did some training for a casa in, uh, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, someplace many years ago. Plan giving training. Um, she likes the idea of having a series of interviews to demonstrate a candidate’s commitment. [00:23:37.11] spk_4:
We thought that was brilliant. [00:23:38.37] spk_0:
You’re dragging them through? Yeah, yeah. You don’t keep showing up. If you have the patience for this, you can tolerate our work. [00:23:43.81] spk_4:
Yes, yes. I thought that was really, really interesting. It’s part of the higher slowly fire quickly. Right. But it takes higher slowly to a whole new level, right where you should You keep creating excuses for the person to come back. Of course, its course. You planned it out right? But they come and they talk to one person, and then they come back and they get a tour, and then they come back and they talk to another person. Then they come back and talk to a volunteer. Or And the idea is that if they and particularly the young person, that if they have the patience to stay with you through a process that takes a couple of months, right, [00:24:20.00] spk_0:
so interesting. Yeah, there are a few a few months [00:24:30.13] spk_4:
that this that this could really, um, weed out some of the young people who just need a job and don’t have any interest in your mission. and really have no interest in the nonprofit sector. [00:24:40.17] spk_0:
Yeah, they’ll just they’ll just drop it. I can’t tolerate that. It’s six along. Okay, um, somebody talks about, and it may have been you and Linda autonomy in decision making, giving employees autonomy, authority to make decisions. [00:25:27.84] spk_4:
So that’s another s o. You know, Now you’ve got the talented, passionate employees, right? And you want to keep them. Ah, and one of the best ways to keep them is to give them autonomy and shale. Pollack house Sharansky, who runs a bank Street College of education. Ah was most articulate. I thought about this idea. Um, he talks about having been a, um, assistant principal in a high school in Queens. Doesn’t really matter. Um, and his boss was really, really clear with him about where they were meeting point a where they want, where he wanted him to get to meeting point B, but giving him great latitude in how to get from point A to point B with point B again being very clearly defined with measurable with metric since and so on. And I think if you think about bright people, they tend not all of them but they tend to want to try things they don’t want to be told what to do all the time. Ah, they really want to have the space to make decisions themselves. And this is what this is. What is meant by having having autonomy in this in this sense, and it’s a really again. It’s a really, really great thing to aspire to. It’s harder to do. [00:26:22.54] spk_0:
Yeah, you have to have a lot of faith in the people you have employed. You have hired, uh, you have to be willing to delegate and give degrees of freedom [00:26:26.40] spk_4:
and not micromanage [00:26:41.31] spk_0:
right and and accept failure because everybody is not gonna make it to point B. You know, they’re gonna get derailed sometimes. Um, all those things I mean those right, those are all difficult. But But you tell me essential for growth, right? For the organization, growth individuals, [00:26:45.90] spk_4:
Absolutely. And the idea being that you’re not, it’s not like you’re not going to check in with them between points and be right, you know, so that the things we’re really going awry, you’re gonna know it pretty early on. Ah, but yes. The idea is that autonomy is a critical part of growing up as as an employee and executive. [00:27:19.15] spk_0:
It’s, um it’s Tom. Tom Dent, a CEO of Ah, Hugh Mentum. Who who says Take work seriously? Not yourself. Right. More humility. More vulnerability? [00:27:45.60] spk_4:
Well, yes. And allowing laughter. Laughter not in the workplace. Yeah, laughter in the workplace. And maybe not just laughter around you, but sometimes laughter at you. You know, you make a silly statement or, you know, think about it. Really takes a lot of emotional intelligence to be able to allow people to laugh with you slash at you. [00:27:51.34] spk_0:
It’s hard to imagine that in an office. [00:27:54.24] spk_5:
Uh, well, [00:27:56.19] spk_4:
I I’ve actually been in on it. [00:28:27.44] spk_0:
That’s why I’m not an employee anymore. Wrong. I pick the wrong places. I would be a terrible employee. Now. I’m so autonomous that I would shoot myself in the interview just in an interview stage. I would, um, but yeah. No, I I’m thinking of the two CEOs. Yeah, there was No. Yeah. Now they would not have tolerated that, but it does with the nineties to, um Yeah, I mean, just yeah, don’t just just just be personable. I mean, just be a person nobody expects in this culture. We don’t We don’t expect perfection from our from our leaders. [00:28:34.35] spk_4:
No. Well, maybe some people. D’oh! Ah, But what? We’re arguing that you that you don’t need to and that you shouldn’t. [00:31:06.62] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software designed from the bottom up. Four Non profits. What does that mean for you? It’s got what nonprofits need. Like fund accounting grant and donor management. Exceptional customer support. Fraud prevention. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take Two. The Legacy fallacy. I’ve been seeing this for years. Uh, plan giving promotional materials that talk about the potential donors legacy will help you plan your legacy. Uh, think about your legacy legacy giving on it. It got to the my, uh, front of my consciousness because I just did a webinar recently, and one of the questions lead with the premise that, you know, I know we have to talk about legacy giving, but and then he went on to ask, ask the rest of the question Um and I, uh I disagreed with his premise that you have to talk about legacy giving, and I disagree with the whole idea that legacy should be an important part of your plan giving promotion. I’ve had thousands of conversations with people in their sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties, and very, very rarely I can’t even remember. But I’m gonna I’m just assuming it’s come up once or twice, but it’s extraordinarily rare. Folks are just not thinking of themselves as leaving a legacy, creating a legacy. If your donors are, uh, George Soros or Donald Trump, they probably think of legacy. The average doner, the average plan gift donor. I hardly ever hear it. I can’t remember a time that I did, but I’m being generous. Um, it is not essential to talk about legacy giving, and I don’t think it’s right. I think it’s a mistake. That’s not what your donors are thinking about themselves as a legacy. They just think of themselves as donors as supporting your cause. In their estate plan. There’s more on the video and the video. You know where the video is. It’s called the Legacy fallacy, and it’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Stick to let us continue with Vivian Hexter and big impact. [00:31:27.78] spk_0:
Thank you, Vivian Dexter for obliging me. Ah, well, I do that. Thank everybody. Vivian. Of course. Co author of the book with Linda Hartley. Big impact. Um, there are consultancy is H two growth strategies dot com. Um, yeah. So I have someone I want to ask you about. That I think you blew it. The company name age to grow. It should be a TSH to grow. You should stop hte and then you get the water. Get the H two grand. I get the h two Hexter and Hartley. I get that h to grow. We should be h to grow And then we feed your roots We water your leaves. I don’t You know you could It’s to grow. [00:31:47.90] spk_4:
Oh, wow. What? We’ll have to We’ll have to look and see [00:31:49.89] spk_0:
take and should be h to grow [00:31:51.72] spk_4:
Yeah, you’d be surprised by how difficult it is. Or maybe you wouldn’t be to get a girl that’s not taken [00:32:41.24] spk_0:
tony-martignetti dot com was not to Ah, wasn’t is not very popular. Now I got to compete with the martignetti liquor dynasty up in the Boston Massachusetts era. Uh, you said you You told me earlier. You vacation on Cape Time? God, Do you know the martignetti liquor dynasty? A liquor stores, maybe. All right, there. They’re up there. You direct their supermarkets of liquor. Maybe Maybe our listeners. A lot of the settlers in Somerville, Mass. May know them, but these air supermarkets not just look corner stores. And but I got tony-martignetti dot com. I don’t know. Maybe they don’t have any Tony’s I don’t know. Um, I couldn’t get martignetti dot com They have that, uh, liquor barons. Okay. Um, I was also gonna owe Gilda’s club. Yeah, the red doors. Yeah. Yeah. You were CEO of Guilt for years. [00:32:55.70] spk_4:
I waas and ah, it’s a wonderful organization. It’s now part of the wellness community. It merged with the wellness community after I left. At the time, we had maybe [00:33:03.95] spk_0:
drive it into the ground, did it then? That’s why they merge. Know that there were There were inference. You made the inference available. I want us. I want to feel [00:33:45.36] spk_4:
Yeah. Okay, go for it. So there were about 30 Gilda’s clubs throughout North America and I had to visit everyone. Ah, and we I inherited an organization where the founder and principal funder was us was beginning to, um, not want to be the sole supporter of the organization any longer, okay? And so we had to build the board, and I have a board that would really contribute in fundraise a significant amount. And we, um we doubled the revenue in the time I was there. We developed? Yeah, it was It was a good It’s a wonderful organization, you know? It provides emotional and social support for people with cancer, Their families and friends. [00:34:13.51] spk_0:
Yes. Oh, families and friends, too. I was just for the cancer patient survivor. No, not true. Okay, um let’s see, uh, what would you like to talk about? I have other topics. I want good, But what what strikes you about all these 47 interviews? What? What moves you the most? [00:34:16.64] spk_4:
It was inspiring to talk to these leaders. [00:34:19.59] spk_0:
Inspiration? That’s one of things I want to talk about. All right. [00:34:29.51] spk_4:
It’s really, really inspiring. I mean, Thio be able. You know, we asked some fairly intimate questions like, What’s the What’s the worst and best thing that’s ever happened to you in your life? And what did [00:34:36.91] spk_0:
you mean? What’s your definition of happiness. Yes. You know, all these interviews face to face, [00:34:40.80] spk_4:
many of them were face to face. Any [00:34:42.79] spk_0:
of them were my phone probably tried to do face. We tried to do it face to [00:36:07.53] spk_4:
face. Yes, but even even on the phone, right. These and and in many in most instances, in some instances, wth e leaders had asked to see the questions beforehand. But in some instances, they had not seen them. So they were really kind of, um uh, we got there sort of their raw, fresh first response to some of these questions and it really the way that many of them have turned tragedy into achievement into empathy into mission. It’s really you mentioned Tara Perry at the National Casa. Ah, and you know Leon Botstein at Bard College, whose daughter was killed when she was seven years old, crossing the street to get to the bus. Ah, and he, you know, that was early on in his time at Bard. And, uh, he said, you know, his first impulse was to throw himself out the window, but what he did was he built, barred into really ah force to be reckoned with and and highly innovative place. You know, they were the first to teach in prisons, or among the first Ah, they were They haven’t this early college, which they now have not just in the U. S. But around the world where kids can earn associate degrees in there. Four years of high school. Ah, and so is highly innovative place. Um And he So I one has to believe, right, that he took that tragedy and sort of turned that took that anger, energy, whatever, and put it into building barred into the institution that it is [00:36:22.65] spk_0:
for Children. I mean, well, not for for for college students, but you know that his child never got to be [00:36:28.16] spk_4:
Yes, yes. Oh, yes. So So it’s really was really inspiring to to hear this, to hear that wisdom and to hear how willing these, uh, leaders were to share with us. So that was another thing that surprised us. We knew a few of them before, but most of them we didn’t know and ah, and we only had I would say, of all the people we asked, we only had one or two turndowns, and that was a very you know, like high level, Incredibly busy. So [00:36:59.73] spk_0:
let’s not focus on the one or two. [00:37:01.13] spk_4:
No, no, no, no. But my point is that [00:37:03.75] spk_0:
going to share [00:37:08.84] spk_4:
willing to share And I think partially again because people don’t ask non profit leaders a lot about their strategies and their insight. They ask corporate leaders, right, not non profit leaders. So to be able to talk about what was important to them and how they got into where they are and what they see for the future was really, um, really felt good to them. Ah, and and we’re hopeful that the people who read the book will want to learn more about some of these organizations and possibly support [00:37:59.65] spk_0:
them At least let it certainly learned and get inspired by the book. Get the book, for Pete’s sake. It sze called big impact. Um, just get the thing, you know, we can’t We can’t cover it all in an hour. Um, now No, she she endorses. No, certainly not. Um, persistence. Another another ah. Topic you get you to talk about, um somebody says somebody says, Oh, this is ah, Evan Wolfson, president of Freedom to Marry. You cannot win every battle, but Lou’s forward. What you talking about, [00:39:22.67] spk_4:
what he’s saying? For So, for example, so a freedom to marry Waas, one of the key organizations in winning legalization of gay marriage, equality. And Evan worked on this for 32 years from the time he wrote his law school thesis about it. And I have to say he Evan is brilliant. Ah, and he described to us some of the strategies that freedom to marry and its coalition used to win gay marriage. And when he talks about losing forward, want an example of that is going to the South and having an having activity campaigns in the South, even though he knew they knew it would be much more difficult to get people in the South to really before gay marriage. But they knew they had to engage with the people in the South. They had to engage all over the country. And, um, the same is true, you know, in certain cultures, arm or conservative, like the Latino culture. Ah, and they engage. They had they had campaigns with Latinos, they had campaigns with African Americans, and they just kept pushing forward, even though again they knew that they weren’t gonna win everybody’s. They weren’t gonna win all hearts and minds, right? Onley only enough to make it happen. [00:40:30.86] spk_0:
So there’s the inspiration. He worked on this for over 30 years of his law school thesis. Yes, Excuse me. And, um, you know, there’s there’s someone who’s been on the show. Paul Lo Big wrote a book called The Impossible Will Take a little while. You know, you have to stay with this somebody someone of one of the people you you interview says that a profound change takes time. That might have been you. And Linda said that a profound change takes time. Um, but you know, that’s part of the inspiration that, to me that which feeding that is the, uh, the vision that the leader brings to the organization and and the incremental steps toward that vision, whether it’s eliminating poverty, you know, in ah, in metropolitan Boston, you know, whatever it is that that commitment division and then and bringing people together who said who loved who support that vision and are willing to work at it for 30 years [00:40:38.24] spk_4:
and celebrate the small victories right and and really be good at doing that. Celebrate the small victories and making sure that your people are taking care of themselves so that they don’t get burnt out. [00:40:56.79] spk_0:
Life balance. Yeah, One of your I think it’s I have a bill. Bill Uhlfelder talks about life balance and says, If you’re if you’re waiting to get kind of connected your family over vacations and sabbaticals, you know, you’re you’re losing your family. Yes. Balance, right? Yes. It’s essential for persistence. [00:41:24.28] spk_4:
Well, it is. It is. So this is one where our leaders were sort of all over the map. Okay? Most of them were striving for work. Life balance, right, Most of them. And then a few were unapologetically workaholic. And one said, um, there’s no such thing as work, life, balance. There’s just life, and work is a part of it. That was Larry Kramer at the William [00:41:33.98] spk_0:
and Flora Hewlett Foundation. No, life is a part of it. All right, That’s fair. That’s yes. That’s a decent Balan, [00:41:38.49] spk_4:
right? I objective. Yes. Yeah, I think I think Larry works pretty hard. [00:41:49.72] spk_0:
Okay. Um all right, well, yeah. Um, it’s something. It’s a life practice. [00:41:51.32] spk_4:
Absolutely. I’m I’m sort of joking. Yes, we. We believe that work life balance is essential, particularly when you’re working on seemingly intractable problems that will take a while to solve. [00:42:03.00] spk_0:
Impossible will take a little while. All right, [00:42:30.00] spk_3:
Time for our last break. Do you ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they worked to build relationships with journalists. Who matter to them. Turn to communications can help you do that. Their former journalists. They specialize in helping nonprofits build meaningful media relationships that lead to great coverage there at turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for big impact [00:43:05.74] spk_0:
animated and then bring it back down. What a talent on what? A talent. It’s just unfortunate that one took prompting. Um, okay, so yes, we’re striving for balance. It’s a life’s practice. Don’t give it up. I mean, don’t just don’t just, ah, surrender and say my family’s gotta wait. No, My loved ones have to rate my friends, even friends go to your go to a college reunion now and then. High school reunion now and then connect. Yes. Okay. Anything. What? You want to say that Yes, like you’re exhausted. It It’s just essential right? [00:43:07.96] spk_4:
It’s it’s essential, but both Linda and I believe strongly in it. [00:43:34.70] spk_0:
I was just at a college reunion last weekend. Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon. Uh oh. Fraternity. A bunch of guys got together. So it’s on my mind on my mind. And plus I’m always admonishing. I probably am. I’m not just encouraging are probably I’m admonishing. That’s I think that’s the right word. Listeners through the show and videos like sometimes wag my finger in a video. Um, take time for yourself. You know, if you want to give your in a giving profession if you want to give effectively, I think you have to take yes. And taking is being selfish and taking time for yourself and your family, and sometimes even just for yourself, like quiet solitude kind of time. If you want to give, I believe you have to take [00:43:51.55] spk_4:
yes, yes, and all too often I think in nonprofits, the feeling of there’s great. Believe it, feeling of intensity about having to accomplish the mission. So it’s hard to to do that to take the time that is essential [00:44:16.57] spk_0:
you got. And you gotta make the time, right? Yeah, Zach is gonna find it. I can never find the time. Yeah, well, time is not gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, here I am. You found me. You gotta affirmatively make the time. Yes, yes. Don’t keep trying to find it. No, not gonna. It’s not gonna make itself apparent to, you [00:44:23.13] spk_4:
know. And it’ll be uncomfortable at first to take the time. [00:44:28.04] spk_0:
Yeah, right. The first time you may [00:44:30.12] spk_4:
be the first half doesn’t [00:44:48.63] spk_0:
I’m abandoning ship. Yeah. How are they gonna get along without Yeah? Well, you need to have the humility to recognize that they can write. All right. See how this all fits together. Just get the book, for God’s sake, it so it all fits together. Um, okay. Uh, you mentioned Larry Kramer Hewlett Foundation, did you not? Yes. Is it? He says relationships matter in this in this persistence and, um, drive toward mission. You know, relationships talk about relationships. [00:45:25.55] spk_4:
So what Larry is saying, it actually is that for him, life is all about relationships. It’s more than just the mission, right? You know, it is the mission, but to him, it’s it’s That’s what That’s what it’s about. And I think it’s particularly important in the nonprofit world because so many of the missions of the organizations that we work in are have social missions right there about either caring for people or teaching people to care for themselves. Or and so it’s really, really important to be able to relate well to people because there’s also the fact that in the nonprofit sector you can’t play. P pent can’t pay people top dollar Ah, and so there have to there have to be other benefits toe working inside a non profit. And one of those is having caring relationships with the people you work with [00:45:59.34] spk_0:
and also organizational relationships. Partnering type Liz Yes, lash out that [00:46:42.37] spk_4:
because these days, right? So number one funders like partnerships increasingly. And you know, we have lots and lots of non profits in this country over a 1,000,000 of them, and maybe a few too many on the ah lot of the missions of those organizations are complimentary on, and so I think it’s really incumbent on organizations to make strategic partnerships a priority. It’s it’s it’s It’s critical not only because funding is limited, because funders like partnerships, but because you get more done for less money. [00:47:07.14] spk_0:
Yeah. There’s a synergy. Yes. Uh, we’ve had guests on talking about how to find the right partners. Get your board by in the board. The board process of formal partnerships and things. Um, yes. All right. So explore those, you know, Think about those, um, So I’m gonna turn back to you. Let’s talk about something that interests you in the book that we haven’t talked about yet. Great. You know, gets all your book. She’s she’s I feel I feel bad for the guests to bring notes or but she’s in that Vivian doesn’t know what she’s been clutching her book, but they never get a chance to read the notes. They bring them, they feel security. I tell them they won’t have time. They hold the notes anyway. And then, um, they never get a chance to look at them because, you know, because we’re having a conversation. What did you find? You. You peruse your table of contents? Yes, I did. [00:47:43.08] spk_4:
I did. So I I want to go back to Evan Wolfson because I really think that if you read the interview with Evan Wolfson that that interview is kind of a lesson in how to make social change evidence. The on Lee, one of the 47 leaders who has accomplished his mission completely and disbanded his organization. [00:47:59.77] spk_0:
That’s that’s telling that never happens. Usually, organizations expand to find a new mission. [00:49:28.46] spk_4:
So Evan now is, ah, high level advisor to other countries around the world that where people are trying to get gay marriage legalized, and he also consults to some. I think now he’s consulting to immigration organizations in this country to try to help them. Ah, but he no longer has an organization himself, and I think his, um the the understanding, how freedom to marry and it’s coalitions achieved. The mission is it’s really instructive. It’s really a It’s like a primer in how to make positive social change. Because he did, he did all of it. They got He got really clear about the goal. That’s one of the principles and learned how to articulate it persuasively and and specifically, at a certain point, learned that if you made it about, um, the legal aspect of of gay marriage in the public eye, it was not gonna be as effective as if you talked about giving people um, make having people be ableto love who they wanted to love. At a certain point in the campaign, they really switched the way they talked about gay marriage, and that was really critical to it becoming possible. Uh, and then another principle is build. So you have to campaign on many fronts you have, and you have to build broad based coalition. [00:49:36.39] spk_0:
Let’s talk about the many fronts. That’s a section of the book. Yeah, [00:50:30.83] spk_4:
so the the idea is that you really this is sort of the partnership idea is part of part of this, that you can’t do it alone and that if you’re not striving to influence the private sector and government, which are the two dominant sectors in our economy, then you’re really not going to make lasting social change. And so you have to work with those sectors. You have to learn how to talk to those sectors on, and, um, and you have to be working on lots of different levels all at once, because otherwise it’s not gonna happen. And that includes, um, working with faith based organizations, which some people, some organizations, know how to do, and others don’t but and again. Leon Botstein at Bard makes a really, really interesting point about this. He says that somehow a lot of us, particularly on the coast, I guess have sort of decided that, um, faith based organizations are not important anymore that, you know, because of the increasing secularization of our society that we don’t need to worry about them. But the truth is that they’re very particularly in the middle of the [00:50:55.18] spk_0:
country. So that may be true in some parts of very powerful on a vast board, [00:51:15.10] spk_4:
right? Very, very powerful. And we And if you really want to make social change in your community, you’re gonna have to work with those organizations because they’re often the ones that are already working on it, right? They have. They have the soup kitchen. They have the, um, the homeless shelter. You know, they’re they’re already actively engaged in making change or taking care of the people in their communities. And so you really have to reach out to them. [00:51:57.41] spk_0:
And they’re in the community there. Yes, there the communities, they know the local leaders, whether they’re the official leaders of the unofficial leaders, if you want to work in it, Yeah. If you wanna make real change and work in the grassroots, you need to know who the unofficial leaders are. Direct in the community. Yes. And your faith based the the organization’s Know that stuff? Yes. There, there, they’ve been They’ve been there for decades and generations. Yes. Okay. Um, yeah. So you Ah, you’re sort of where we just have a couple minutes left together. What? What struck you about some of the questions you got answers. You got to the question. You asked everybody. How do you define happiness? [00:52:43.25] spk_4:
So, you know, it’s Ah, that’s a highly personal question, right? I mean, in the sense in the sense that it’s different for everyone and some of our leaders, because their lives are so frenetic, all they want is peace and quiet. To them, that’s happiness. But that’s regal. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then for some, it’s being with their families and, you know, spending time with the people they love. Ah, and you know, interestingly when we had not a lot of them said, um, you know, happiness is sitting at my desk for 12 hours a day for [00:52:51.10] spk_0:
a lot of money or [00:52:52.24] spk_4:
a lot of No, no, that not this group. Not this girl. Now and again. That’s part of the emotional intelligence, right? Isn’t understanding what really makes life worth living, which is relationships and meaningful work and all of those things. [00:53:11.60] spk_0:
Okay, um, let’s see. What do you love about the work you’re doing? [00:53:24.08] spk_4:
Well, I’ve always been mission driven tony out. You know, I got an MBA, and I tried to work in the corporate world, but I wasn’t happy. And Senator, Lord and Taylor, I was there in that fire lord, and then I was that I was at best foods as a product manager. Didn’t work. No. No. And so what really makes me happy is, um, is helping to make positive change in the world. I mean, that’s and helping the underdog. I’ve always wanted to help the underdog. [00:54:01.32] spk_0:
You gotta leave it there. All right. She’s Vivian Dexter. Get the book, For God’s sake. It’s called big Impact insights and strategies from America’s Big Impact Insights and Stories. Who wrote strategies. I needed an intern to blame for this insights and stories from America’s non profit leaders. If I had an intern, they’d be fired. If you want to recommend anybody, Let me know. [00:54:37.28] spk_3:
Next week it Zombie loyalists with Peter Shankman. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Creative [00:54:50.27] spk_2:
producer is clear. My off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that information, Scotty With me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great [00:55:16.89] spk_7:
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Do you run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, The entrepreneurial Web tune in every Friday at noon, Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. Right here on Fridays at noon, talk radio dot N.Y.C., [00:56:02.75] spk_5:
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