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Cam Robbins & Matt Burghdoff: Online Testing
What do you test online and how do you get started? The experts take on my hypothetical of a $500,000 fundraising campaign. They are Cam Robbins from Easter Seals and Matt Burghdoff with Donordigital. (Recorded at NTC 2014, the Nonprofit Technology Conference.)
Maria Semple: In-Kind Gifts
Maria Semple, our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder, returns to talk about in-kind gifts. How do you find these non-cash gifts, their value and the right appraiser? When do you need an appraiser? We’ll answer all.
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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with granuloma tose iss, sino vitus if i learned that you missed today’s show online testing, what do you test online and how do you get started? The experts take on my hypothetical of a half a million dollars fund-raising campaign. They are cam robbins from easter seals and matt burghdoff with donordigital that was recorded at ntc twenty fourteen, the non-profit technology conference and in-kind gif ts maria simple, our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder, returns to talk about in-kind e-giving how do you find these non-cash gif ts their value and the right appraiser? When do you need an appraiser? Will answer it all on tony’s? Take two video from last week’s show on alice’s ice bucket challenge. We’re sponsored by generosity siri’s hosting multi charity five k runs and walks here is my interview from and t c twenty fourteen about online testing welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen we’re at the marriott wardman park hotel. In washington, d c with me are matt burghdoff and camera bins there. Workshop top work-life shop topic is online testing practical insights and lessons learned. Matt burghdoff is senior account executive for donordigital cam robbins is interactive marketing manager for easter seals. Matt cam, welcome. Thank you. Pleasure. Uh, we’re talking about online testing. What? What? What is it specifically, cam? That we’re testing that’s an excellent question. You have to figure out what your goal is. What do you consider success? And then you test different ways different past to get there. Okay, so the, uh the measure the measure of success clearly comes from what it is you want to be successful at and where we find that from our mission is that we’re going that that organic it could be it could be your mission could be getting your brand out there. It could be getting your constituents engaged with you. It could be getting more donors to donate andi, it could just be discreet. Campaign might be might be just an online campaign. That’s going to last sixty days or so. Something like that? Well, you’d want to be a bit more specific than just a campaign. What is the goal of the campaign? Is that a fundraising campaign you want to reach x amount? Is that a engagement campaign you want to raise? You’re engaged constituency by a certain percentage, and and so it’s it’s, showing different ways to increase what it is you’re trying to dio. So does path, eh, give you this path, they do it better than path be sometimes you find that it’s the same and it’s always good just to see what’s out there what other people are doing? Because sometimes some people are doing a great sometimes that works for you, sometimes it doesn’t. So there’s the tried and true that you’ve always done doesn’t always work, and so testing helps you find out if you’re in a rut or if you’re going down the right path. Matt er good testing leads to clearer decisions, better informed decisions about how to get to where you want to go the way i can’t describe it. Yeah, exactly one of the things when you do a good test, one of the main objective is to really try to get a learning to really try to figure out what you should be doing next. How can you make sure that all of the efforts that you’re putting forth, you know, all of these campaigns, all of this creative thatyou’re doing, making sure that it’s actually working the best that it possibly can when you’re investing so much time when you’re sometimes investing so much resource is finances you want to? Make sure that you’re putting those into what’s going to give you the best bang for your buck what’s really going to be delivering altum best results for you on exactly his camp said sometimes what those results mean, or what those results are can vary a little bit depending on your specific goals, your specific campaign objectives but really, you want to that’s the whole point of testing is really to make sure that you’re getting the best results you possibly can. One of the things that i like to always kind of remember, this is actually a quote from one of the individuals that i like to follow, but who is that? Why don’t you shout at him or her it’s actually, dr flint mcglaughlin from mec labs, you might know it better is marketing sherpa. They’re mecha labs actually parent company. I would highly recommend that anybody just kind of followed. They have various free webinars, all sorts of good fun stuff, white papers, it’s a large repository of specific tests actually that have been done that it’s very, very insightful and i would say definitely checking is there? Is there a twitter idea that people can follow i’m sure there is, but i don’t know what i don’t know. Okay, well, mech labs, we can find them, okay, but basically one of the things that always sticks with me and that i always try to remember is adequacy is the enemy of excellence. Make sure that you don’t really just kind of focus on what is working because a lot of different non-profits a lot of different organizations will have a current plan, a current objective. You know, something that’s already built that’s kind of working for them. That’s a least keeping them going that they feel comfortable with. But the real question is, is that really what could be your best? You know? Okay, great. You’ve got a million dollars or one hundred thousand dollars coming in every month, every year. Well, could you maybe have three million dollars coming in if you actually made sure that your creative your message wass the best that it could be? And that’s, really, what testing is aimed at doing is making sure that you can get to that highest level that you can make whatever you have work the best that i possibly can. Okay, i think. Teo, help our conversation let’s, let’s, uh, create a, uh, develop a hypothetical campaign. Can we do that? And, you know, fund-raising is so basic to non-profits i mean, as tempted as i am to make it more sort of community engagement related, but to keep it real for listeners, let’s, let’s make it a fund-raising campaign and let’s say that, well, we don’t have we don’t have a time frame for it, but we’re trying to raise half a million dollars. All right? And we’ve developed some online landing pages message for doing that and driving people to our you are online giving paige, i’m keeping this pretty basic. I’m not, but you’re welcome to enhance the hypothetical that’s all purpose you’re gonna build from this is lame structure that i’m creative. Okay, so i want to raise half a million dollars in and i don’t have a time frame for doing it, and we’re we’re typically our annual budget is is it two and a half million dollars? We’re two and a half million dollar agency, okay, but what? I want to raise a half a million dollars in a campaign and i’m not really, as i said. Concerned about the duration of the campaign and we’ve developed landing pages now lorts do i have built enough of an infrastructure for a test yet or not yet know absolutely every every step of that process you contest for your home page if someone comes into your home page something that we actually tested easter seals as we put a bright green button on our home page that said, donate and we have soon that obviously it’s big it’s green there’s no way you can miss this, but it was pointed out to us that we had a drop down menu that said ways to give in which we didn’t have a specific donate link, so we tested it it was an a b test, so if you can do or say that you had a fifty percent chance of seeing this link in the fifty percent of not seeing it and having that link actually increased donations, so bringing people to the form is a very important part of the whole process. You can’t raise a million dollars if no one is coming to your donate for can we test how they’re coming from? It were one of the referral order the referral sites that are driving people to the home page. If you have the analects in place yes. So it could be your testing google ads or you’re testing you our social media marketing message. Your email messages yet anyway, to get people there is a test. Once you get them to the home page it’s a test. Once you get them on the donation page itself again there’s so many different things that you contest what’s your mastering. What are the do you go? Hired a lower sorry. Did you say ask string? Yes, i ask string now on twenty martignetti non-profit radio. We have george in jail and i think this testing conversation may just be right for for a pretty stiff sentences in jargon jail. But probation does come along easily. Parole, probation, parole board parole comes along easily. All right, i’m going to have trouble next what’s what’s our ask strength. So and ask string is thie amount that you present to the donor? Um, in increments. Is it twenty? Thirty, fifty. So there’s a good have the options. And then you generally have the open text field that says what amount? Do you want to give? Okay, so in the jargon it’s, the string is the the recommendations write suggested suggested giving, amassing e-giving what levels are those? Okay, right. And so testing what? Those actual numbers are on the the space between do you jump from ten to one hundred? Do you do it in ten dollar increments? If you go from hyre toe lower? Is it vertical? Is it horizontal? Oh, my, we’re really going to do all sorts of art in the lower up and down analytical or horizontal, really. And sometimes it makes a difference, and sometimes it it doesn’t. So that’s why you test one of the most common test with any sort of ask string is actually going ahead and saying, well, is this this kind of one of the best ways to actually start looking and seeing if you can increase your average gift size? So actually looking at saying, well, what? How much am i actually asking somebody to donate? Is my normal donation page actually asking people to just donate five, ten, fifteen and twenty five? And i know i’m hoping that people listening would say, wow, that’s really, really low, because i certainly hope that you would say that because i certainly would say that, but you know we can live certainly look at it a lot of times people will donate however much you ask them to, they don’t necessarily sit there and say while how much can i actually afford to give they use what you present to them as a guide it’s kind of like, how much can i give that should actually be helped your how much should i give that will actually help? So obviously kind of changing that ask string, seeing how much you can actually ask testing what’s really gonna work for your audience size and whether or not you can move that needle is definitely one of the best ways to start. I would just caution because there is one thing that you can run into is it’s always a little bit? When you start looking at asking people for a certain dollar amount the higher you go sometimes the fewer actual donations you’ll get so it’s always a little bit of a balancing act of saying, well, does it matter if i get ten percent fewer? Gif ts at a twenty five dollar instead of a twenty, dollar level. Or is that hurting me? Net revenue wise? You know, it’s kind of it’s, a balancing act to really look and see how far you push it. But it’s definitely a good test to start looking at if you’re not already. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz cerini this’s. The way we’re hosting part of my french nufer city guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back french is that common language? Yes, they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and a common desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them, shed their story, join us, pardon my french new york city every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping countries. People be better business people. Buy-in talking. Dahna now i have a client that has a database about four hundred thousand people a little over half of them are current donors within defining that has made a gift in the current or or most recent past year it’s like two hundred twenty five thousand or so of the forty thousand, and their average gift is eighteen dollars, so you know, it could be a pretty well ast and this is, uh, it’s, a faith based organization was back into the late eighteen hundreds. Oppcoll you know, it could be a pretty well established organization, but still have fifty dollars, could be a very large donation for them. Yes, it’s definitely possible well, and also one of the things in our session and particularly we focus on online testing, so driving up revenue specifically online with the other client that you mentioned eighteen dollars, seems awfully low, so i would guess that there more print, they are there for you, okay, definitely, you know, in print, it’s a little bit lower, you know, the average gifts eyes is definitely lower in print. That doesn’t mean you can’t test that out in print as well, so if you’re doing any kind of direct mail program i’ll admit that i’m or digital specialist, i’m not i wouldn’t pretend that i’m a print mail specialist, but one of the things that you can certainly be doing is on your reply devices actually looking and testing. There are a lot of different types of test that you can do with how much you ask whether you base it off of someone’s previous highest contribution, whether or not you base it on kind of there last gift just their period there. Last gift, not necessarily their highest gift ever. And i think also and where you position, if you’re using last gift argast then there’s lots of possibilities. But if using one of their exact gift where you position that in your ask string, you come in the middle is the first exactly on then, of course, there are all sorts of different treatments about whether or not you highlight the one that’s slightly higher than what they want. And that’s sort of all right, there’s also, you know, i’ll call this out. It’s we call it equivalency, ese, but it’s the idea of something. Have you ever seen something? Where you say, oh? Well, for five dollars, we can actually give a child a vaccination. Sure, you know that sort of impact, exactly impact ask exactly. You can certainly always test those out. In fact, actually, one of my clients just recently did some surveying and looked at it and said, well, actually, the equivalency ease that we’ve been using for certain dollar handles really just don’t seem to be the ones that people care the most about so maybe even just changing what that equivalency is may actually get more people to actually give at that level. Give that gift and that’s something that actually they just started going ahead and testing, but something to think about. Cam let’s, bring you back what else in the lame hypothetical that i created? What? What else can we be testing? What else? What else interested you in and what i created what i set up well on the donation form itself. Copy. How much copy? What kind of coffee? What’s your tone in the copy whether or not you use images. What kind of images? There’s. Really? So many different possibilities. You just need to figure out what it is they i would test. One thing at a time if you track change everything, you’re never going to, but i don’t know the answer, right? So there are so many possibilities you’ve really got to figure out what can you focus on? What is your strength if you don’t have a lot of photography, testing images doesn’t make a lot of sense, but maybe testing the copy does. Okay, let’s see harris, our people always randomly assigned camp tio tio test alternatives and the test that we’ve run, we tend to run a b tests. So yes way. Have done some testing that’s a little bit more broken out by highest previous contribution. But those air, very specialized, specific test. If you want something a little bit broader like is this copy working for audience in general? Does a five hundred dollar ask? Is that too much for our clientele then? Yes, i think a general more random. Is it’s the way to go? Ok, matt, i see you shaking your head a lot. Anything you want to add their yeah. I mean, the only thing that i would say is if you were going to set aside a specific control group of people. That are kind of representative, but even that you would probably more or less kind of randomly select you wouldn’t go through and one by one kind of pick out names you just kind of originally when you’re setting that group, try to get a generally representative population your audience on. Then maybe you just kind of hold them off separate arika if you know you, you have two very distinct groups, like, you know, that you have the the seventy plus people who are very passionate, but they like a certain message and you’re trying to bring in a younger crowd that you think well, you know, listen to a different message, then, yeah, you would want to be more specific and who you choose. Okay, good. You see, uh, can we take and we take our hypothetical a little further anything, you know, other things that we can, uh, we could be testing, or can we have another layer onto our half a million dollar campaign? Hypothetical teo make it more interesting from a go ahead? I mean, have fun. We’ll make it more interesting from a testing perspective. We’re well, one of the things that you could do is look at doing, you know, it’s so this goes a little bit beyond maybe not everybody has the opportunity to do this, but you could also look at saying, well, we obviously have, you know, five hundred thousand dollars for two and a half million dollar organization is a pretty sizeable chunk of their budget, so you might actually want to invest a little bit in-kind of focus group testing, look it actually what your message is going to be up front so you might actually look at saying something like, well, are we going to go with a message let’s say, this is an international relief organization? Or are you going to say, hey, well, i want to specifically raise disaster preparedness funds or do i want to pick a specific emergency that actually i’m responding to, you know, if we look back at the philippines just recently high and do we need to maybe raise revenue specifically to offset that, you know, or do we have something more generic that we really just kind of want to talk to? Or maybe we even have another area? The three year anniversary of syria conflict is obviously coming. Up, if not on us right now, you know, i mean, you got all these different types of things that you might want to look at testing and saying, well, let’s, put out a little bit let’s put some feelers out there, see if we can figure out which approach which conflict, which which message really seems to resonate, it is most likely to get us to the end goal that we need there are even if we are trying to raise unrestricted, you know, and we have some concerns about whether or not it’s going to become restricted, you know, if we at least know what type of message really seems to resonate, then we can look at that and say, well, how what can we learn from this? How can we pick up some of these different types of pieces and try and actually put that into a really strong unrestricted campaign? Okay? And we’re gonna add something camp? No, i was in golf in different directions, okay, go ahead. Oppcoll that was i’m assuming that you’re doing email with his campaign it’s not just a website that stands alone, let’s include that we’re going to make sure. That you drive people there timing. When do you send your e mails? Do you send them in the morning? You send two in one week heimans it’s very interesting. We used to think that our clientele would had, like, a three day window where they would take that long to open it. And now we’re finding that actually within twenty four hours, if they don’t act, they’re not going to do anything so that we have to, you know, change our approach. S o and we’re constantly testing that to make sure that we’re doing the best that we can not only to give our clientele what they want but also tto give us the best benefit, even email i’ve had guests who talk about testing subjects, subject lines, that’s huge, okay it’s so pedestrian and obvious that i that i’m the only one at the table who would say it, but no, no it’s, good it’s a good thing that we’re going out with the subject lines are an incredibly important part of the email, and people do tend to forget them. They break them first and don’t go back and look at them, they just assumed once. It’s done, it’s done, but that’s, that’s, not at all the case and email, looking a little more broadly, is still quite impactful and effective for non-profit fund-raising right, we’re not, we’re not, we’re not, we’re not. We’re not giving up no, no, definitely not, no, not even close, okay, okay, make that we get cleared in case anyone had a contrary opinion, if you are, you know this hypothetical is, is the raising half a million and a kn given unspecified amount of time. But consider urgency and changing that urgency that could go to your campaign message. I was in your place. So our name is easter seals. Obviously, that has a connotation to a certain holiday. That’s coming up. Um, maybe by the time this pocket may have passed, well, yeah, actually may have, but it wasn’t it z within the within within many weeks either before or after you. Okay, so we wait tended to just always have a spring campaign. That was our easter drive to tie into our name. And then one year we decided that we were going to stop that. And we wanted more closely line it with our offline campaign, which with a spring drive. And it happened to our our due date for, you know, all the money to come in was at the end of the month, it had absolutely nothing to do with easter. And it did terribly online because people were so used to our name and do just seeing that holiday triggered with our name got them to donate. So timing, i mean, obviously ours is a special case, but timing could be very important. Yeah, i mean, i would even say that, you know, i’ve had another client that they’re not as completely tied. You know, i mean, obviously, easter seals is a little bit, but i’ve had other clients that they have their donors is used to one specific time i’ve had one of my clients actually had a really, really big time of year at thanksgiving, even bigger than, you know, december thirty first, which i know is going yeah, that shot’s just about everybody non-profit dahna it’s, just when you have individuals who have been trained when you have a supporter base that really that really connects you with a specific time of year specific event, you know, don’t try to just abandon it, you know, that work with where the lose your strength, lots of guests of talking about you know, where are the where are your constituents? Goto where they are not where you want them to be, but but when are they about to know what time that was? That was that save the turkeys hyre labbate all where there was a rescue mission, actually, okay, they basically had a big food. They had to basically a big feast, a big kind of serve the homeless, you know, make sure that everybody has a good thanksgiving that type. Of thing. Okay. All right. So see that connection? What are some things that in our last couple of minutes weaken? Leave listeners with that they can implement immediately. I think one of i think i think it was our optimization tests optimization test that you can implement right away without saying depends on your you know, your what way could be general enough, but leave people with some thing they can think about right away. What would you suggest? Well, this is almost a kind of ah final thought. But one thing that i will point out and we stress really heavily in the session is number one rule of testing is always, always, always tested because we have seen just as camp had mentioned. You know? I mean, there are different things that will work for one organization, but won’t work for another because the two different organizations have an audience that is slightly different. That has different expectations. You know the same thing. Like what we were talking about. You know, if i were to have any of my clients go out really strong for an easter push, it’s probably not gonna work that well. But at the same time, cam could probably pull up a thousand different examples data that shows no, this really works because it works for one organization, but not necessarily another okay, cam, final thoughts that my answer is gonna be you’re gonna hate it, but it’s a depends it if you know what you want to test, like you have that inkling, like i think this is going to do well, or i think we’re not getting it because that’s what you need to test its it’s, your gut, and then you just go from there if you see an email or a website that you like, figure out why you like it and test that a great thing to test too is also just kind of those because you reminded me. But you know how every one of us can probably come up with an example of ceo or the big guy who came up to us with oh, we should really do this. I saw this thing and way should do it. A test can be a great way to say, well, yes, we did it, but we didn’t really waste a whole lot of time and money on. That idea. And by the way, it didn’t worry. Ok, that’s. Very good. That could work with boardmember ideas. Yes, it has to be the executive director, very often. Excellent, thanks very much, all right. Matt burghdoff is senior account executive at donordigital and cam robin’s, interactive marketing manager for easter seals and cam and matt, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. Real pleasure. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen. Thanks very much for being with us. My thanks to everybody at inten, the non-profit technology network. We’ve got live listeners, of course, let’s start abroad in tokyo and kawasaki, japan konnichiwa, beijing, ni hao and soul and yon gene, south korea on your haserot new york, new york, new bern, north carolina, somerville, new jersey live listener love to each of you and all our live listener loves never forget the podcast listeners podcast pleasantries, everybody listening whatever the heck you listening to the podcast generosity siri’s they host multi charity five k runs and walks and they are sponsors of non-profit radio. You probably may be difficult for you to generate enough runners tau host your own event. So makes sense to team up with other non-profits and that’s what generosity siri’s does. They’re runs our fun. I am seed one in last november in in brooklyn they have also a charity. Support team that helps you with your fund-raising you talk to these people on the phone, you don’t have the live chat with them by text, you talk to them and naturally you have the dashboard and online tools as well, but there is this charity support team that you can talk, too. I like that multi-channel ready means that you can have an event with a small number of runners, because when you put your charity together with all the others in the event, you have hundreds of runners and general see siri’s takes care of all the back end stuff. You can talk to the ceo, dave lynn, about becoming one of their multi of one of their charity partners. Events coming up in new jersey, miami, new york city and philadelphia. Please tell dave you’re from non-profit radio he’s at seven one eight five o six nine triple seven or generosity siri’s dot com last week’s show was the ceo barbara newhouse. It was a google plus hang out on air. We did it at the chronicle of philanthropy studio in washington. The show was devoted to the ice bucket challenge. The video from the hangout is at tony martignetti dot com and that’s tony’s take two for friday, tenth of october fortieth show of twenty fourteen marie sample is back she’s, our monthly prospect research contributor and the prospect finder she’s, a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her website is the prospect finder dot com her book is panning for gold. Find your best donor prospects now she’s our doi n of dirt cheap and free. You can follow her on twitter at maria simple welcome back, maria. Hey there, tony. How are you? I’m doing very well. How are you today? Just fine. Thank you. Go that’s. Good. We’re here to talk about gifts in-kind on this fall afternoon what way are we are? But i first need to just quickly mention to you that apparently i am having a three year anniversary with your show this week. Really? You’ve been tracking your well, you know, who’s been tracking it is lincoln. Oh, really? You saw an anniversary notice on lincoln. This is this is your year. Yet it sent out an anniversary notice. Tio, my connections and i all of a sudden started getting all these congratulatory notes this week. So i thought well, that isn’t that appropriate. That here is my my weak. Teo, reconvene with you. So it’s been three wonderful years. Wow, that’s really something i would if you had asked me, i would have thought it was i would’ve said it was more like two holy cow that’s. Terrific. I get those notices, i but i don’t always read all of them. Usually i just read the birthday notices. I don’t always read all the work anniversary notices, but i also noticed they send them out throughout the month, so they don’t. They don’t only come in the beginning. So maybe i just maybe i haven’t gotten yours yet. You’re three three year anniversary, but happy anniversary. I’m glad you’ve been with me for three years. Thank you for having me for three years. That’s. Wonderful. Oh, thank you. My pleasure gifts. In-kind let’s. Make sure everybody understands what a gift in-kind is. Yes. That’s, right. Let’s do that first before i get thrown off into jargon jail first, first out of the gate here, so gets in-kind would really be anything other than monetary donations. So typically they would be considered donations of food, clothing, medicines, furnishings, office. Equipment, building materials and, you know, even sometimes services that air provided by somebody could be considered ah, gift in-kind as opposed to a gift in cash that they might give to your organization. So if they’re providing some sort of a specific service and then not charging you for it, i know that, tom, you know, sometimes consultants will do that on on a pro bono basis, so that would be considered a gift in-kind as well, i could throw out another example that i’ve worked on a few times gifts of artwork, art collections are also gifts in-kind i worked on a really interesting one once it was a presidential memorabilia collection, and it included a picture it included the resin, the one of the nixon resignation letters, original signed i think there were five or six that he signed, and it also had a picture of that famous picture of jimmy carter, menachem begin and anwar sadat. You know, the three of them are shaking hands well thiss was a deep into six figure art collection, but so they can be really interesting on dh cars. I’ve worked on a couple of classic car donations also, which can be quite valuable. I know you mentioned automobiles, i was just thinking of classic automobiles, but yeah, they they could be they could be kind of fun to work on. Well, so, you know, it must have been interesting. I’ve never had the opportunity myself to be working directly with, uh non-profit while they’ve been, you know, fortunate enough to receive something, you know, of that type of value on also, you know, it got me to thinking about, you know, well, what if i were a small to midsize non-profit and have the millionaire next store living in our community and maybe people didn’t even realize they were housing any type of art collection or one or two even significant pieces in their home and you know what? You know, what do you do? What is the next step that you do if you find out that perhaps somebody left it to you and there will or they could be making the gift while they’re still alive? When then, you know, it got to be really complicated as i started to research this a little bit to try and figure out well, what is the non-profit need to do first in terms of valuing the artwork. So what did you do? I’ll tell you what organizations i kind of came up with that are reputable in terms of places you would turn to, but i’m curious to know how it worked out. How did you appraise the artwork? Yeah, well, let’s, let’s, take a step back and make sure he understands the for for a gift that’s valued over five thousand dollars. And again, like maria said, this is we’re talking about non-cash gifts. So not this is not cash or stock, but something other than that. Over five thousand dollars, the irs requires what’s called a qualified appraisal and that’s a term of art and the qualified appraisal has certain requirements and a qualified appraisal. It has to be done by a qualified appraiser and that’s also a term of art, and they’re certain credentials that the irs requires the place that i turned for the presidential art collection anyway was the the american association of appraisers. I think i’m pretty sure they’re based here in new york, and i believe i contacted them first for some recommendations specific, too presidential memorabilia, was it perhaps the american? Society of appraisers, because my research shows that they’re the oldest organization founded in nineteen thirty six and they think they are in the new york area, okay, could have been but i think there’s another one too, which i think is triple a american association of appraisers or american appraisal association. So we could try either one of those. But years is yours is more bonified because you actually research that i’m remember i’m living off the top of my head. Yeah, i actually am. I can actually post a list, uh, post show onto your facebook page, but there were actually sort of six top societies or associations, if you will that that my research turned up one was that one i just mentioned the american society of appraisers which according to this particular webs site that lists them, says that this one is the oldest and then there’s the art dealers association of america, thie appraisers, association of america there’s a triple a yeah, there’s that could’ve been it. Okay. Thie appraisal foundation, thie international society of appraisers and the private art dealers association. So i thought that was all interesting that i got to wondering if you can actually turn to any of the major houses that actually, you know, the auction houses like those that you might be seeing featured on something like antiques roadshow. Ah, but i didn’t know if that was, uh, if people turned to those types of auction houses to help, you know, evaluate the worst oven item, certainly an auction house, i suppose, would get involved once there it actually want to, you know, offload that particular items so that they will end up having the cash. Uh, i i would imagine that would be the case for any non-profit other than a museum who would want that gift, perhaps as part of their dahna display? Yeah, it’s it’s ah, it could go broader than that, you know, there are ways that non-profits khun use gifts in-kind in their mission that that are permissible and are not so obvious, like hospitals can use artwork because they can decorate waiting rooms and hallways and things. One of the classic car donations that i worked on was for a university, and we were anticipating using the classic convertible in there athletic recruiting because they thought that seventeen eighteen year olds when they’re thinking about what college to go to to play sports might love driving around in a being driven around in a fifty seven chevy, i’m pretty sure that’s what it was convertible, so there are different charitable uses that they’re not as obvious as like you said, you know, the museum, there can be other charitable purposes for for these types of gift now, yeah, i hadn’t thought of that. That sounds great, actually, i can i can really see how an organization might want to step back and think about how it could fit in, as you said to their overall mission or two attraction, like in the case of the college or university there with their son sports department, really, and of course, there’s also the other examples you gave you no services could be gifts in-kind so that’s, obviously being used used up metoo immediately a point that i want to make, too is sort of subsumed in what we’re saying we’ll make it explicit. You have to find the right kind of appraiser. There are, like i mentioned presidential memorabilia there, our appraisers air specialising just that. So if you had a ah fine art photograph. That was being donated to you. You need to find someone who specializes in not only find our photography, but they may even specialize in the particular photographer the artist or the era, if it’s ah it’s ah it’s, not a contemporary piece of art. So you have to find and this goes into the irs requirements. Do you have to find someone who specializes in precisely what it is you’re being given? If it’s an automobile, automobile appraisers, it’s just like a medical specialist, you have to find the right kind of person. Maria, let me ask you about trying to find gifts. In-kind i mean, these don’t only come from wealthy people. I don’t want people to be left with that idea. They’d only come from people of wealth. What about ways of ah, finding gifts in-kind in your community? Well, that got me to thinking about not not just the individuals in your community who, um i might be capable of doing this. But then i started thinking about all of the corporate programs that are in place, for example, that have gifts in-kind as part of their overall corporate social responsibility, so they may have a corporate giving program a corporate foundation, then they may have a separate set of programing related to in-kind on dh. Then i was wondering, well, how could a non-profit potentially find who are the corporations in my area? Or, you know, i’m a non-profit in need of, um, you know, whatever women’s closing to help the women in our shelter be closed in the winter months or something like that? You know, where could i find that actually found? Sure, there’s multiple websites, but i found a non-profit website that that looked like it would really be helpful front for your listeners to know about and it’s a good three sixty. Have you heard about that one? Oh, i don’t know it is what is a good three sixty dot or ge? Yeah, good three, sixty dot or ge and so you can go into this if you are a non-profit and you’re you’re in search of product donations. Um and you can go. You can see the companies that are there and then, if you’re a company that wants to list your product donations, you can list what you have available on dh, of course, if you’re an individual. That would just like to donate to this particular or a good three. Sixty dot org’s. You can do that as well. They’re looking for monetary donations. Always. So i just thought it was a pretty interesting, almost like a clearinghouse. It looks like to me. Yeah. Okay. Well, that’s, why you’re our die end of dirt cheap and free. Anything else you found out there about trying to find these types of gif ts? Um, uh, i was thinking about this might be more suitable for organizations that are, you know, related to being near the water or maritime or marine environment organizations. But you and i have touched upon yacht’s in the past and trying to figure out, you know, yacht owners and so forth. But, you know, sometimes there will be people who would like to actually donate their yacht, just like people would want to donate a car supposed to try to sell it on their own. So boatinfoworld dot com would allow you to search by state or county or zip code of for a list of boat owners near you. So, you know, if we have anybody in the, you know, marine related industry listening to the call, they might want to check out boatinfoworld dot com to get a list of boat owners. Um, and it could be something that they would want to start cultivating relationships with those individuals getting them and involved in cultivation events, etcetera. You always go the marine wear because you have a sailboat. I know you don’t have any in-kind wave that in dahna that’s, ok, you are you donating your sailboat? No, not anytime soon, you know, okay, you work quick, answer that, too, okay, okay, where l should we go with this? What if, in terms of, well, i’m sorry? Was there anything more about finding potential gifts? In-kind or is we exhausted that um then i start thinking about real estate, and i was wondering, well, how would you find out if you want it to proactively find if there is real estate, that could be potential for donation? And i was thinking, well, i guess if you got involved in developing a solid relationships with realtors in your area or, you know, even the banks that you know, unfortunately, these last few years, we’ve seen such high foreclosure rates and so forth there might be some opportunity there if you have conversations with bankers in your community or realtors to find out about some potential properties that could become available, you know, before as a donation. All right, we have to go out for a couple minutes. We come back. I have a couple of tips about real estate gifts that marie is talking about, and we’ll keep going on gif ts in-kind stay with us. You didn’t think that tooting getting thinking you’re listening to the talking alternate network to get you thinking. Nothing. Good. Have you ever decided to reinvent yourself? Are you navigating a new life’s journey? Are you an aspiring artist that’s looking for direction? 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A couple of things that i wanted to reinforce about real estate that that you have brought up real estate can be a very, very good gift for non-profits it can also be a really lousy gift. You have to do your due diligence around real estate and basically it’s the same as if you were buying a home or a condor coop. Do the same dude illegitimate before you put that charity name in the the the chain of title. So you want to do an environmental assessment phase one? If that raises any issues, then you have to go to a face to assessment. If the land has buildings on it or a home, whatever you want to make sure that the building is all in code. So there’s there’s, that kind of an inspection, a building inspection title search to make sure that there wasn’t. There isn’t some defect in the title. Basically, all the things you would do as i said that you, if you were, if you were buying the place to yourself, whether it’s got buildings on it or not, before you took ownership of a piece of property, you want to make sure that it’s clean in all those ways environmentally title code and building inspection wise. Oh, and if you do all that, then you can end up with a really valuable gift of real estate. So you you bring up an interesting point. I hadn’t really thought about that chain of title that you just mentioned. Hyre so if i’m understanding you correctly, does that mean if if somebody were to approach an organization let’s say while they’re alive and they say, you know, i’ve got this undeveloped piece of land we want to leave, too, i would like to donate to your non-profit organization and if you decide to say pay well, great and take that piece of wind and then immediately sell it and let’s say, it’s sold within, you know, three months time and if you didn’t go through maybe something in the environmental assessment and then somebody down the line says, wow, i can’t believe x y z non-profit ever owned this piece of land it happens to have had, you know, contamination on it or whatever you’re saying it could end up coming to bite you in from almost like a pr perspective if your name’s somehow attached to it this’s like a law school exam there’s a bunch of things in the inn that hypothetical you just gave me the p r yes, but i think even potentially worse than that, although pr can be pretty bad there’s a potential for legal liability if it’s if it’s an environmental mess, then all the owners in the past and i’m not environment the lawyer, but i know a little bit a very little about it all the all the owners in the past are potentially liable for not having cleaned it up or possibly for having contributed to the mess. So and that applies to individuals to so yeah, that’s this is why we do environmental assessments. You can you can get in some really sticky legal trouble if they’re turns out later on a couple of owners later or something to be an environmental problem. And, you know, you didn’t know about it. You didn’t insure against it, things like that. Go ahead. I was just wondering, what about in the case of somebody who is willed a piece of land or a property that had some sort of an environmental issue from years ago. Let’s let’s, you know, think about somebody who may be owned. Ah ah, family run gas station for a number of years or something like that or on oil related business oil tanks or something. And then the spouse dies. The person continues to all the remaining spouse, continues to own the property, has no heirs and decides to leave it at her will to a non-profit so then i’m wondering what the impact is mean in this case kayman non-profit just say no, we don’t want it. No, thank you. Yeah, again. Sounds like a law school, hypothetical, by the way, i do recognize your turning the tables on me, asking me questions on guy and i don’t appreciate it. So you may not reaching your four with me? Yes, thie through the amount of time that you have to renounce a gift, i’m pretty sure that’s what it’s called in a will varies from state to state. It’s typically ninety days or, you know, maybe longer for any beneficiary of a gift by will to turn it down you don’t have to accept something that’s in a will, so if in your hypothetical the non-profit would want to do its due diligence around that real estate before it accepted the gift and within the time period that it can still turn it down, if it doesn’t want it. The only thing that came out of your earlier one was you said the the charity sells the real estate that’s a whole other issue. If it’s sold within three years of the time of the date of the donation, then that has implications for the donor’s charitable deduction. The donor’s charitable deduction gets reduced because if the charity unloads, i’m using an unkind word, but i’m not using a loaded word but gets rid of that gift within three years of the date of donation that it’s presumed that the donation was not part of their charitable mission, not within their charitable mission and therefore that the irs goes back to the donor who claimed the donation and that and the deduction associated with it possibly years earlier and reduces it from a fair market value to a cost basis. Don’t a deduction on that could be a huge difference. Between what it costs the donor to get something and what the market value of it was when they made the gift so big implications if charity does not use a gift if does not use a gift for at least three years, i have to go out in about a minute. Maria so i kind of took over your segment, but but you were asking me questions. So it’s your fault? Um, well, no, i mean, you know, you’ve given us so much food for thought, really? And i think, you know, the bottom line is you really have to be able to, you know, seek out the right appraisers, seek the advice of financial and law professionals when you’re going to be getting any sort of a significant gift. Ah, oven in-kind gift any non-cash related gift that you really do need todo your homework and and ah, and know what, what to look for here, i think it’s, good stuff. There are a couple of irs publications that will help you publication five twenty six, which is called charitable contributions and also publication five sixty one, which is about gifts, in-kind and those qualified appraisals and qualified appraisers i was talking about, okay, maria, we got to leave it there. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, tony maria simple are doi n of dirt cheap. You’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com and on twitter she’s at maria simple next week, you ex user experience secrets revealed and better tech r f p’s. Those requests for proposals those were both recorded it in t c twenty fourteen, the non-profit technology conference last may. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com generosity. Siri’s sponsors non-profit radio generosity. Siri’s dot com or seven one eight five o six. Nine triple seven our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. San liebowitz is our line producer show social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell. Social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Our music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. 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