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My Guest:
Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
That’s the new book by Edgar Villanueva. His thesis: The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. Let’s talk to him and find out what he’s thinking.
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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into hypo gargle aziz asia if you tickle to me with the idea that you missed today’s show and there’s a footnote. Number one on hyper gargle ist asia d colonizing wealth. That’s the new book by edgar villanueva. His thesis. The solutions to the damage and trauma caused by american capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a native american working in philanthropy. We’ll talk to him and find out what he’s thinking. Tony steak too. No video responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant by wagner. Cps guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us, tony credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine it’s my great pleasure to welcome to the studio edgar villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of native americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the andress family fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable youth. He’s an instructor with the grantmaking school at grand valley state university and serves as vice president of programs and advocacy at the shot foundation for public education. He’s held leadership roles that kate be reynolds charitable trust in north carolina and marguerite kissy foundation in seattle. Edgar is an enrolled member of the lumbee tribe of north carolina. You’ll find him at d colonizing wealth dot com and at villanueva edgar and welcome to studio. Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month was october, october sixteenth. Yes, all right. And you just had a very nice interview with the new york times. Yes. Congratulations on that prep prep prep you for non-profit radio. Right? Right. I’m ready. All your all your media appearances to date have brought you to this moment. Right. So that’s all culminated here. I promised listeners. Footnote one footnote one. Teo. Hyper guard. Alice the asia, of course, anybody listens to show knows that i opened with something funny like that, a disease, every single show. But in edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle ist asia. So this is the first time over four hundred shows that thea, that the guest unknowingly has provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You don’t know what we do that every single show? Um no, you don’t know that. I didn’t know that i’m not listening to non-profit video. It’s it’s your life. All right. Um, okay. D colonizing wealth. You’re you’re you’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah, you’re raising some eyebrows. No one told me yesterday that i was the colin kaepernick of philanthropy, which i was like, i haven’t thought about it that way, but that’s not all so bad getting closer to the mike so people can hear you, you know, just get not almost intimate with it. Um, i used to call myself the charlie rose of charities until he blew that gig for me and how he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer because you talk about colonizer virus and exploitation and division like these are bad things. Yes, they are bad. Okay. What? Ah, what is the what? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to d colonized so many of us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? You know, i have this firewall that were completely disconnected from wall street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes in systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate america. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways. Not in the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people. Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated, you know, especially i’m from the south, north carolina. We’ll talk about that. They’re absolutely was. A legacy of slavery is stolen lands that helped contribute to the mass of wealth. And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native americans. Yeah, so, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exist in our communities, you know, because colonization, as we often think about it, as something that happened five years ago in north carolina, especially where i’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparentsgeneration, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still we’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices. But we are areas, a resilient people. And those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to solve today as a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table. You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Now you’re a member of the lumbee tribe north carolina. That’s right. Robertson county, north carolina, which which is not too far from where i own. I owned a home in pinehurst, which is a little north and west, i think of of robertson county lumber. So the lumbee tribe, i assume the lumber river is named for the lundy’s and lumberton the town that’s right name for lundy’s right so lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river fr african first yeah the river came first and so certainly the river came from i think the name of the river came right river’s been there much longer okay yes so we’re you know hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal north carolina that i came together to form the lumpy try and named ourselves after that river um and we’re going to comeback teo native americans as the original philanthropists but that that struck me a lot i think you you say you say that the end of the at the end of books right where i caught it i’m whichever like a minute a half or so before the break so just we’re introducing this we got playing time together wealth you say divides us controls us, exploits us. What’s that about? So the accumulation of wealth. So money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, i say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has calls tarm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed, thie acts that can result as as a result of that, to exploit the land and to exploit people are or what? That’s what has calls the harmon itself. So the case that i’m going to make in this but that i’m making in this book, is that wealth money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that could actually help repair the harm that has been done. You’ve got seven sixteenth steps to that second half your book. All right, we’ll take our first break pursuant. They’re e book is fast non-profit growth stealing from the start ups. They take the secrets from the fastest growing startups and apply those methods and practices to your non-profit. It’s free as all the pursuant resources are you’re accustomed to this? You know this. You will find it on the listener landing page, which is where it’s always been. Tony dahna slash pursuant capital p for please. Now back to don gani monisha. That is your indian name. Did i by any chance say that correctly? I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my ojibwe these days. You don’t know your tea boy. That sounds, but that is your indian name. Ah, leading bird. Tell the story of how you got that name. We’ll come backto. Don’t. We’ll come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t you think this is a good story? How you got that name? So my tribe, the lumbee tribal north carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming. You are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? Your mom’s right. So but when i when i was working in north carolina and native communities, i went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in north carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in raleigh, north carolina, and so, but i was very curious to meet with this medicine. Man and tio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, if you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give us a spiritual name or a native name on dh. So i met with this guy in the marriott hotel in denver, colorado, where this this native health conference. So it was all ah, tell the story in the book is quite hilarious and in many ways let the end of our session where i was feeling excited about you know the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because i, you know, had such a colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native name. Naghani benesch a which means leading bird s o. I was very honored, and my first thought was, what kind of bird? Right, am i a little tweety bird or a my mighty eagle? Silicon, right? Birds are vest. So he explained to me that i was the type of bird that flies in a v formation on daz i when i left, i studied of these birds, and they’re the leading bird. I’m deleting glamarys leading burghdoff. I’m the bird that flies in the front of the v formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands. It’s co dependents and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a v formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when i when i learned these characteristics, i just felt really i was really, really happy and content about this name because i do see that’s the type of leadership that i model in my everyday life. And i think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector. You explain how the birds communicate, which i’ve always wondered. They’re they’re just close enough that they can feel the vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other, but they’re not so close that they’re going toe bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they and i guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they going to injured, right? Yes, sir, it’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, you know, gps built into their bodies. And the other thing i recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so, you know, i want to learn research that a little bit more, but i think when they’re when someone is down, are you know, there’s an injury or whatever may happen they there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our inter related, you know, being inter related exactly our interdependence. Now, this is a this is an indigenous, the belief that we are all related and that’s what it makes me think of the birds also working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how? Explain this, this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other. Yeah, so there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, you know, we are we are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset or world view from sort of the american individualistic type of mindset we also have connected to that viewpoint is this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things, all of the decisions and that we’re making today are going to impact future generations. So there’s an idea that i am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far ford about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family, but also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work and you encourage us two each that that each one of us takes responsibility for a cz you said were thriving and suffering together. What i’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that, yes. So you know, i think how are we all responsible? We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks, when we you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We, we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes, like the natural path of progress. Absolutely way. It’s learned right. We have holidays, you know, for for christopher columbus, for example. And so. But the realities are that colonization was something that was terrible, that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we, as as the people, have not come to terms with. We actually we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so i think we’re still dealing with the consequences on dso. The dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, i refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies as as a nation, they show up in our policies. Our systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power the least naturally to your point about latto them organizations. Absolutely. So. You know, i think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate, you know, the dynamics of colonization, because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth when you look at asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety in that vulnerable communities on. And when you look at who gets to allocate managing spend id, you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundation said on eight hundred billion dollars of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, health care, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the irs. Teo payout five percent of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on ly. A small percentage is actually leaving the doors. There would be an invested in community. Let’s assume it’s i know there are a lot of foundations that use that five percent minimum as their maximum, so that zoho five percent of that would be forty billion dollars. So the counter is sabat. There’s forty billion dollars coming each year could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative, and you know, we’re trying to preserve this thiss foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know if we if we spent in the next two years the eight hundred billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future. Just future. Years and other generations were tryingto way want to be around for in perpetuity? The foundations would say, right, right. And you know, i think i think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that five percent when congress had acted that five percent rule, it actually began at six percent, i believe in nineteen seventy four and then in nineteen seventy six was lower to five percent. The reason that congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are our wealthy the wealthy one percent, or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break? And so that that irs minimum pay all of five percent? That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants and so you know, so it is sort of the other thing to explore if you are with the ninety five percent that is not leaving the doors. If the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that ninety five percent is then being invested to generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up in harmful and extract extractive industries that our counter intuitive to the mission of foundation. You make the point often that often, right, those investments are in our industries that are hurting the vory populations that foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission and in fact, funding the something else that was asked about thea the way the money is. All right, well, we’ll come back to it if i think of it. there’s there’s a lot that organisations khun gained by hiring people of color indigenous people what on dh very few your rare exception working in found eight doing foundation what what’s the what make explicit that those uh those advantages sure so you’re right i’m absolutely on exception i think when i started in philanthropy i was one of ten native americans that i could find we kind of found each other in what year was that this was in two thousand five that’s along and we are now there’s about twenty five of us now the last time i counted so yeah there’s there’s you know an amazing opportunity for foundations and i think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in to two foundations that have lived experience and not only foundations but non-profits now the ngos doing the ground work absolutely foundations of the funders on dove course some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork we’re seeing that emerging but for the non-profits doing the day to day work a cz well represent the communities that you’re absolutely kind of makes sense right and felt you know it’s funny because some foundations actually require That of non-profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staff. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non-profit or foundation to have folks that work there who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, you know, about the problem in a different way is going to create some proximity that i think is going to just inform strategies that make sense. And i can’t tell you the number of times i’ve been in strategic planning processes, on board meetings, where decisions were being made and always carry my mother my family with me, you know, in spirit into the room. And i hear these decisions are these conversations and i’m thinking like, oh, my god! Like, you know this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother more or my family. That’s still living. Brovey decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah, yeah. Dahna and, ah, i i thought of what i was going to ask you about or just comment on the foundation wise. We do see some foundation saying that they’re going to spend down their assets. Hyre i wouldn’t say it’s needle moving, but you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. You know, um, was paul allen, was it? Ah, not pull out the microsoft, i think. The microsoft founder co founder who recently died. I think his foundation was paul allen. Okay, i was thinking steve allen to come, but will come. That’s why i thought no, it wasn’t him, but was paul allen? I think his foundations one, but there are some. So we do here, some glimmers, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle. Yeah, i think i mean, i think deciding to spend down is ah, is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now, if we actually release the funds or even if you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more there. There’s a lot of amazing work happening right now. That is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color, which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know the the five percent that is being invested, only seven to eight percent of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so i think, you know, i think it’s a conversation that the boards of foundations should think about. What is the value of, you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity like what is? Is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways it feels i can see that as being a very selfish type of, you know, ah, way of thinking. If this was cnn right now, i would play a video of you. But i don’t i don’t have that. But in your in your times get to work on that talking alternative. We need we need video capture and screens and everything in your video. In your interview with david bernstein new york times, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities. Tto learn about solutions. Yeah, you know, i think that i think of, you know, people of color. Indigenous folks is being the canaries in the coal mine. Sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail, we hurt the hardest. And but there’s just something so magical about sense of private i have about my community because we’re so resilient, like regardless of, you know, all of the trauma, the colonization, the, you know, genocide, stolen land. We still remain intact as the people on dh. So there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that i would if i weren’t native. I will be interested to know. Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the frontlines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom and you know, often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, rc strategies, or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up and i’m like, well, we’ve been doing that aren’t in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster. Is there still a lumbee community in robson robson county? Yes, there are. There are about sixty thousand enrolled members in the lumpy tribe. The bulk of our community is still in robinson county. Okay, now i have a north carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in-kind being remember. You know, we were very inclusive. We we we’ll take it. We’ll adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. Shin ta. Officially enrolled. That’s a stretch for an italian american with just north carolina. License plate on driver’s licence. All right. You you talk about, you know, i guess, i mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it, and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out, you know, piecemeal. The the imbalance, you know, the grant, even the even the word. You know, the granting, right? It’s like some i was like, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s it’s it’s a it’s a right, equally held by all. Yeah, you know, i think power in money. A lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right? And equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from linds of equality. So we’re going to have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity is going to actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat. So that’s not gonna happen. You know that sze, highly unlikely, like infant is really small. Unlikely? You know, it is a hard thing for people, teo to think about it. Especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, i i have less than i’ve had, so but, you know, wi i i wantto think about this abundance, my frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to tow work together too. You make sure that we are privileging there’s who have not been privileged by that. So i love that you you approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break when you see piela. If you need help with your nine ninety, perhaps, or your books properly managed have you got your books? Are you thinking about a c p a change? Maybe in twenty nineteen, talk to the wagner partner. You know him? Yeah. Huge tomb. He’s been a guest. I’ve gotten to know him. I trust you. He’ll be honest about whether wagner cpas is going to be able to help you. Accounting wise place to get started. Weinger cpas dot com now for tony’s, take two. I didn’t do a video this week. I was so relaxed over the thanksgiving holiday, including the weekend, the four days. I just didn’t think of it. I mean, i’ve been doing weekly videos for i’m sure much longer than you’re interested in watching. It’s been years. I just do a weekly or, you know, maybe every other week. And i was so relaxed over the over the four days that a cz i’ve encouraged you to be, you know, take time for yourself while i was following her own advice. I just didn’t even think to do a video that week for this for this week. So i hope that you took time made time. You know, you have your not going to find this time. You have to make it. I hope you made time for yourself and you are as relaxed as i was. And you forgot to do something that you should have done, aunt. Hope you’d get in trouble for it. I’m not in trouble. It’s time for the live listener love. Ah, and where’s it going? Let’s let’s go abroad. Were in sao paulo, brazil, were in moscow. We’re in seoul. Ah, and we’re disconnected. You know that’s not fair. That’s not very nice. So cool. Live listener loved to brazil, russia and tio seoul, south korea, on your haserot. Um oh, i knew i knew brazil was brazil. I don’t have my cici. I’ll just have to say, listen, love to you. Love goes out and bringing in abroad. I mean domestic. Back into the states. Tampa, florida, new york, new york, seattle, nottingham, maryland. Cool nottingham. That’s a new one. Welcome, seattle. Welcome, schenectady. Of course. Sorry about that before, but pepsi upstate new york who lets a new yorkers checking in. And boston, massachusetts and wilmington, north carolina. All right. North carolina special live love teo, shout out to north carolina. Um, and the podcast pleasantries. The vast majority of our over thirteen thousand listeners each week. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. I don’t know. You might listen. A couple days later, you might listen. A month later, you might binge. Listen to all your podcast. A month later. Whenever you’re checking us out. Thank you for putting us in your podcast schedule. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Now i want to go back to ed gar villanueva. Edgar villanueva. See, i thought he would pronounce his name edgar and i was wrong. And but that’s that’s what i said, edgar. But it’s edgar weinger villanueva and de colonizing wealth. Welcome back, you two. Go for thanks for having me. Okay. Just will be here. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You haven’t done anything that would lead me to shut your mic off. It hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened. So let’s let’s start getting ah, positive. Okay. You know, the second roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. And i thought you came up, like, five short. I mean that we have another twelve status. I mean, if you want to, if you wantto share power, you’re gonna have to have you got to step it up with twelve steps or or even fifteen. You know, you have more than the colonizer, but but the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical. Yeah. You know, it’s funny because i did have some resistance, teo having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s ah, there’s a quick and easy fix. If i just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on. Was a prime number. Got that event, right? Trying that’s that’s i don’t know why. Yeah, so what? You know, but i did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me. Where are you? Lets them out for us. Just list all seven. And then we’ll talk about, um sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair. Okay, so you’ve been thinking about this for a while in this? Ah, i just did. I admire the admire the thinking that goes into this. Yeah. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that i’m working in and the disconnection that i felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community, teo just re ground myself in my values and on in-kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and into my community that i could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in non-profits and in philanthropy who were i think of very for thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this on dh then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restored of justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is a method that’s used to schools and in the criminal justice system to help people deal with things that have gone wrong, to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ahh model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with with the offender, with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong. To get to a place of truth and reconciliation. I saw ah, grieving. Ah, you say everybody. I mean because of our interrelated nous, where we all need to grieve, including the people of color indigenous, you know those who have been oppressed? Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened? What the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of describe mint too that the harmon, the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people. And, you know, i think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that, ah, that colonization and the idea why supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of, of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this side idea of being american. And i think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see, these commercials for these dna tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from, and they feel connected to that in some way. Um, and the the thing you talk about two is the orphans, orphans. You say that those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans. How’s that you called them orphans? This is a term moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is. It’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from giving up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe tio, this individualistic way of being in america. And so, with that there’s been a lost of sort of that, that mother country for lots of white folks in a loss of identity. Because although you know i’m not anti american, let me be very clear about that. This is the greatest country in the world, very proud tbe a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, you know, and and and not that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your grandparent’s or from or the language they spoke of the culture they have. Um and i feel that that’s a loss for many white come unity’s that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. If we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You said a few minutes ago that white supremacy is is not a riel. Not really. All right, well, why why do you say that? Well, i mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really well. Well, the idea that that, you know, a certain group of people, white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this was a kn ideology that was created in order, teo, be able to i have the types of oppressive movements and systems of policies they have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mind set that has been, you know, an idea that is not really. But we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, i was tall. That, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if i were to behave or dressed or act in a certain way, that appeared to be more white than that was going to be a better thing for me. And so we know that the idea why supremacy is, you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief. All right, um and your you also encourage non-profits and teams tohave a grieving space. But we’re talking about we’re talking about grief. We have about a minute before break, but then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in a in an office? Yes. So you know, these. These steps are personal, but it can be applied an organizational setting. And so i think, especially those of us working in the non-profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave. Ah, space space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, i share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities, the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book, you know, because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But d colonizing wealth dot com. That’s where you go. So i gotta take this break. Tell us. Start with the video at tony dahna em a slash tony tello’s. Then think to yourself, what companies can you ask to switch credit card processing to tello’s? Is it a company? Ohm maybe buy a boardmember family member, accompany already supporting you. Talk to them, have them watch the video. And if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay. Tony, that m a slash tony tello’s now back to ed gar edgar villanueva, c i practice saying edgard because i just assumed aunt, i thought no, i’m sure he uses that guard. Just like editor allan poe. Yeah, no, i know. I understand. That’s the it’s your name. You’re telling princessa anywhere, and i i assumed we know what makes you. You know what happens when you make a soon make an ass of u and me, so okay, uh, edgar, um, i like the idea of the grieving space. You know? Acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds a hundred percent nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how. How oppressive is that? Very oppressive and in philanthropy is especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of, like, how this wealth was amassed, our secrets that are within these families that you know many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward, as she said. And and that was the next step in terms of you’re next time apologizing recognized, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the reynolds kate be is it kate? But can’t be reynolds foundation? Mean reynolds tobacco, north carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves? Hyre. I’m not gonna ask you if the kp reynolds foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we’re talking about in the steppe. Apologizing? Absolutely. No, there was. There was no acknowledgment of that and chapter one of the book is called my arrival on the plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of r. J. Reynolds. And so, really, literally and metaphorically i was i was working there, but no, there was there’s there’s no acknowledgment of that and i think you see that you know in north carolina recently the chancellor of you of the university of north carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners what most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition yeah acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t johns hopkins university to do something similar that that they had their founders were ah johns hopkins their founders were slave owners i think georgetown university georgetown sorry thank you okay georgetown they were pretty right there were priests priest founders that were slave owners that’s right actually no ah friend of mine who lives in new orleans is ah black woman who is a descendant on and was called to georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together talking about the history talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And you know, this has been very healing, i think, for the university and but also front for my friend karen, who is now having that you know, that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors you talked a good bit about the reconciliation process in south africa. Canada. You got to get the book way. Can’t can’t tell all these stories. I mean, i know what listeners i know. I know you love stories as much as i do, but there’s not enough time to just get the damn book. Just goto de colonizing both dot com for pete’s sake, you go right now. If you’re listening live, where are yu? But pepsi? Schenectady, nottingham, maryland. Just go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Okay, listening. You talk about and empathic and generative listening, right? So you know often when we when we moved to a process like this we feel bad. We’ve apologized the default sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, okay, i’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so but before you before an act, you just need to paul’s toe. Actually. Listen toe, listen and learn. So teo, for for non-profits, you know, i ran a non-profit. I’ve worked inflame three for fourteen years. When i asked non-profits, what is the number? One thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always i just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda and the non-profits. They’re going to be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience and their history. It’s just it’s just going to make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be hard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is teo to stop a times toe also listen, until the others be hard. Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of just donors and and i don’t know, you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s that’s the beginning of a relationship is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing two. Whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees there, there’s a lot to be learned. So she goes back to the value of bringing representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Okay, so relation you want us to ah, you want to relate? Let me ask you, you you you read how to win friends and influence people you say dozens of times doesn’t have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book. You’ve read one book dozens of times. What do you take away time after reading? Ah, dale carnegie’s book dozens of times. Well, you know, i still have an original copy from that i i stole from the library of ah. My mom was a domestic worker, and she was carrying for frill elder elderly man. They had a vast library, so i did it with this little book that you stole from an infirm. I didn’t. Natalie and i feel terrible about a book haunts me to this day. So this is a public didn’t even think to leave, like, twenty bucks or something on the table and have it if i had it at that. All right? Eh? So hopefully this is my my way of giving back is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the one takeaway for me in that book is, ah, what is really kind of connected to relating and listening is when you’re when you’re talking to folks, people just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. And if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend, like, well, edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if i didn’t say it and so yeah, it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are. You know, we i think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of filling heard and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just going really take you much further and building a relationship and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking you have you have an example of no, a, ah ah like building design like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of of offices. Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas, like the colonizing virus, infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edge and absolutely foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office. Right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices and you know the way they appear. Khun b. Super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources. You take a break when we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational. Designed to sort of just office designed our last break hoexter give the five part email many course debunking five myths. It’s five parts. Five myths. Think about all you think that all text donations are small and captain ten or fifteen dollars? No, sir. Not true. Do you think there’s a monthly or annual minimum? No, there’s lots of misinformation and hoexter give has a smarter, easier way to do text giving you raise more money. Get the email many course. Text. Npr to four four, four nine nine nine. Now we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both. Dotcom. Get the thing. Get the book. In terms of designing organizations more egalitarian, you’d like to see absolutely so one of the steps that book is represent and what you look at the demographics of the non profit sector and especially in foundations that hard this sector. We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the ceo positions folks who really hold power organizations. So what are the one of the ideas that i put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least fifty one percent or at least fifty percent of their board to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many non-profits funders actually are, you know, requiring this of their non-profit that their funding on dh many cover organizations that received government funding federal funding have thes types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the services of theirs. Non-profits again be representative? Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a that’s a stretch. Fifty one percent is the stretch. It’s a stretch. But you know, the conversation has has been xero about it. So i figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road. And there are some examples use, like the novo foundation in the book. They have a women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse something turning tow, this building and and decisions being made by women who are going to be using the building. Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation i really appreciate. Jennifer peter buffet, the founders of does novo foundation, wrote the foreword to my book, and they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work on dit shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens teo folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be. Is it no vote that funds for five years or seven years? They guaranteed you cite this in the book. No matter how much trouble you’re having in year one, two, three, you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment, right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding you know folks can be. You can focus on building a relationship versus so i’ve got some meat, these certain objective. So i can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am i going to do? You know how i’m going to pay the salaries next year? Really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities and planning on dh khun plans that are being one only one or two years s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing investing. So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for for for the public good. Right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity. That that is really moving the needle issues. If we’re supporting with the five percent are right hand. Really good work. You know, mission related work. But in our left hand, we are investing. Ninety five percent of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive there, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so you know, they’re great foundations like the nathan cummings foundation, for example, who just recently declared that one hundred percent of their assets their entire corpus is going to be used on and support their mission. Yeah, on again, other examples in the book, and we have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, actually. So talk about your final step, which is the final step is repair all of us who are philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non-profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country? And so i think about looking your personal portfolio? Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values. Okay, so i’ll give you last thirty seconds in the way that the way i learned that natives are the original philanthropist was by what? You what, you talk about your mom? Yes. So, you know, i think a lot of giving what we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or folks, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so i do talk about my mom in the book, who was, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and and how to random ministry out of our church to support children? Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry just gotta you gotta get the book. You gotta read about it in history. And so is that giving of time, treasure and talent, not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities in ways that are, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists. Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com edgar villanueva. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on tony. Real pleasure next week. It may be the new book lean impact. I’m working on it for you. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled. Tony dahna slash pursuing capital p matter-ness deepa is guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com by tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream tourney dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine are creative producers claire meyerhoff. Today, rob is the line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy, and this music that i’m hoping is going to come on very soon is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great you’re listening to the talking alternative network, you duitz to get you thinking. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor in center of attention. Tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show beyond potential live life. Your way on talk radio dot n y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates interested? 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