You probably don’t know if you have an email deliverability problem. You need to hear what Gmail preserves about your mail actions and how those impact what gets delivered. What’s a honey pot email? Harmony Eichsteadt was an evangelist at NationBuilder; Brett Schenker is email deliverability specialist with Every Action; and Laura Packard is a partner at PowerThru Consulting. We talked at NTC, the Nonprofit Technology Conference, hosted by NTEN, the Nonprofit Technology Network.
Carly Leinheiser and Craig Sinclair reveal what this movement around Creative Commons, Open Source and Open Data is, and what it means to distribute or use content, code or data from an open source. Carly is an associate attorney at Perlman + Perlman. Craig is digital media manager at Manhattan Neighborhood Network. Also from NTC.
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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. I have to again welcome katie artie in davis, california, our newest affiliate, ninety five point seven fm really glad you’re with us. Thank you so much, katie. Artie davis, california oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with ginger vel stippling, if i had to speak the words you missed today’s show, get your emails delivered you probably don’t know if you have an email deliver ability problem. You need to hear what gmail preserves about your mail actions and how those impact what gets delivered what’s a honeypot email harmony eichsteadt is evangelist at nation builder brett shankar is email deliver ability specialist with every action did you know that such a profession even exists? And laura packard is a partner at powerthru consulting? We talked at ntc non-profit technology conference hosted by non-profit technology network and ten and the open movement. Carly leinheiser and craig sinclair revealed what this movement around creative commons, open source and open data is, and what it means to distribute or use content code or data from an open source. Carly is an associate attorney at perlman and pearlman craig is digital media manager at manhattan neighborhood network, and that is also from ntcdinosaur on tony’s, take two fund-raising fundamentals, my other show, we’re sponsored by opportunity collaboration, that working meeting that unconference on poverty reduction that will ruin you for every other conference here is get your emails delivered from and tc welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of day two of ntcdinosaur non-profit technology conference twenty fifteen we’re hosted by n ten the non-profit technology network and we’re in austin, texas, at the convention center. My guests are harmony eichsteadt brett shankar and laura packard, and their topic is the secret science of email deliver ability. Harmony is an evangelist for nations nation builder brett shankar is email deliver ability specialist. We’re gonna learn all about that at every action, and laura packard is partner at powerthru consulting harmony. Brett laura, welcome! Thank you. We’ve got we’re starting something new with the each interview today. On day two, we’re featuring a swag item and i’m wearing the first first item of the day from from at bay here’s my at pay t shirt password sucks. There you go. Swag item number one for ntc day number two we’re gonna pile them up. Let’s, i’m going. I’m dying to hear from the e mail deliver ability specialist because i before i learned about this session i didn’t know that such a job exists but i think it’s very it’s going to be reassuring to people it’s not nothing it’s scary at all but it’s scary i think it’s way need one. Maybe that we need them but i think it’s reassuring to people what does an email deliver ability specialist do day to day day today, pretty much i spend every waking moment making sure that every e mail sent has the best chance of getting to the inbox. All right, cool. It is reassuring. And other people are there. And the topic is the secret science of email deliver ability. Um, laura, why is this a problem? Why? Why? Yeah. What? What? Why? What? The problem is that many e mails don’t go to their intended recipients. So they go to spam or that i don’t get delivered. Why? Why is that weird that we’re going to talk about today? Why is that? Yes. Ok. And how to prevent it? Yes. And the problem is that people don’t even know it’s an issues so they don’t know what they should be doing. Tio make it better. They don’t even know harmony. We don’t even know it’s a problem. Yeah, i think i think a lot of times people don’t know it’s a problem and they don’t know how to even go about thinking about what it means to get an email to the right person or what they might be doing wrong that prevents the email from getting to that person. Okay, all right. What? Just generally because we got plenty of time together. What the hell’s going on in the networks that that creates a deliver ability problem. Well started really the focus of the email long time ago where it was the size you talk. Teo press. He talked to your investors. You talk to your board, any of those people and it’s always. How big is your email list and that’s what they cared about? And that was the focus over time, you know the shift of email providers like google yahoo all them of helping their clients and their customers to be happy changed over the years, so back in the day used to be just content, you know, nigerian scam stuff like that, but now its change tio, how people are interacting with your lists and it’s been a fundamental change, and really, unless you do e mail deliver ability or email full time, you have no idea that this change happened and it’s really relatively in the last two years that this changes really occurred. So now listen, eyes doesn’t matter anymore, but people are still focused on that there’s ah report by return path that came out not that long ago and thirteen percent of all e mail went to spam or when to spammer missing last year twenty percent, thirteen percent and ah, really talking about it at the panel, but i’ve been doing ah white paper and study and found on giving tuesday it’s closer to twenty four percent for non-profits is going to spam so almost one and four messages already get in there at the end of your fund-raising we’re talking more like eleven percent, and you do the math on that it’s a lot of money, it’s a lot of lost opportunity, so it’s just a very different focus emails in a very different place than it wass you know your tour go okay? Even that recent okay, past couple years, email shifts literally daily. Okay, so we got a good amount of time together to spend now that we’ve got some motivation out of the way on what to do about this harmony let’s start right here. What what what’s the first tip, you khun strategy suggesting you got sure. So i think the first thing i would say i mean there’s lots of really technical things, which i think is why it’s important to work with places that had email deliver ability specialist, i’m not one, but we’ve got one as well to help really focus on that. But even if you’re not super technical, i think the biggest thing you khun dio is just think about email andi remember that there’s actually human being on the other end of that and that you want to talk to them like they’re human beings, so don’t yell at them over and over again with the same message if they’re not responding, think about how different people are going to want to hear. Different kinds of messages remember to talk to them more than just once a year, so not just on giving tuesday, but build a relationship throughout the year. So sort of remembering that it’s actually human being and thinking about how human beings like to communicate, i think just that alone will start to increase your email deliver ability, really, okay on those are all very good suggestions to minimize them at all, but i don’t see how those what’s the connection, how short of those impact deliver ability, which is determined by our automated system. Totally so i think, sort of what bright was saying with the way that your emails will get delivered is based more on the engagement of your list in the size event, so if you’ve got to really engage list, then more of your e mails will make it to the inbox, and the way you get a really engaged list is that you talk to people about the things they care about, so they open your emails, right? So if i e mail you about something that has nothing to do with your life, you’re not going to open that email, maybe you’ll only open the ones that relate to your state or it’s a topic you care about, but if i make sure that i’m smart about only sending people emails about things that are relevant to their interests or their location, then that means more of the time you’ll open the emails for me, which will then increase your reputation over time. More of your e mails we’ll get into the in box, which increases your engagement, and it sort of becomes his virtuous cycle. And for those who are listening to the podcast and don’t have the benefit of video, lots of nods from brett through anonymous is unanimous recommendation. I’m still trying to get to the science of this. How does how did the automated filters is that okay? We’re doing. How did they know how engaged your list is? So ah, just like so many things out there, what google, yahoo, hotmail all them know about you and your email habits is freaky. Google literally measures how long you spend opening your email before you delete it or click down two microseconds so and they know who that email is from. Yeah, so they will know by the from address, they’ll know from the i p that sent from the headers that are in the email, like so many things they’re able to track who was sending it and all together they measure it so it’s everything from did someone open it? And did they immediately bleed it? Did they just delete it? Did they ford it? Did they reply back? Did they move it from their spam box that their inbox that they move it from the in box to a folder all that’s measured son of a gun, i’ll email this is what female is. Yeah, gmail is actually the one of the hardest all preserved. Yeah so gmail last occurred in a couple years old. It was like twenty seven percent of all e mail sent to gmail goes to spam. They talking to people at gmail. They don’t even know all the rules. It’s very it’s hidden like they don’t want everyone to know everything so they don’t want anybody. They don’t want one purse because they don’t like making the system yeah s oh oh my god! What they measure it’s freaky and then there is when it all started way back in the day of the first span was something like the seventies, i think, from there it’s, it’s, basie and learning so they have this algorithm that’s learning from everyone’s reactions and doing its best to figure out what to do with the emails. We kind of joked it, it’s, it’s, skynet, it’s, this learning system that sooner or later is going to rise up and take over it’s intel beyond intelligent to making these decisions millie’s the decisions and the fractions of a second remarkable you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way dahna oppcoll laura what? What else? Beyond the engaged lift, i would be careful how you obtained emails in the first place. Make sure that the people that are on your list want to be there, that you don’t just swap a list with somebody, and the people don’t even know who you are, let alone want to hear from you because those people are not going to be engaged, and they’re going to bring down the quality of your list. Okay? Okay. Anybody want to amplify the watch? Watch where you get your your your list from armani i think that’s so important. There’s in many ways, i think email deliver ability is sort of like the dark arts it’s ah, a colts and tricky. And we don’t know all of the things that they do, but way no, some of them and one of the things that could be really dangerous is that there are, like, honey trap emails that will be on a hot list way. Have a jog in jail on that radio and you are ah, severe e severe offender what? Let me explain what was the phrase again? Honey, honey trap email, honey, dropping their email. Address is set up to catch you if you buy a list of emails. So if you buy a list, one of them could have been set up by google. And they know if anybody said ditigal to it you’re on a list very calming. They seed? Yes, that are potentially going to be sold when they just seat every list in case it’s ever solve it. So they do it a couple ways. There’s. So these are also called spam traps and there’s really like two types. There’s what snow is pristine and then you can call the others, like basically used or expired addresses. Recycled tons of different terms. So the proceeding are never used as a real address. So they will put in on a website for bots to pick up. And they literally throw it out there to get caught. They want you. They want boss to steal it. And then if it winds up clearly it’s, not organic, they didn’t sign up. Because there’s, no way in hell this is used on. And then the recycled address are all the dresses that have gone out of use. And then they flipped him after a time. Period six months to a year, depending on the system. Some of them are like a couple months. And basically, if you’re not cutting your list and getting rid of these addresses, clearly you don’t really care about your list. I’m maintaining your list, right? So at that point, you’re bad dahna gun and then it becomes very hard to get any of your emails in teo an inbox once you’re, in fact, once you’re a known offender, yeah, yeah. Big nods. I love the way. Laura what? What? What? What? What? What if you are a known offender? Is there? Is there any rehabilitation possible? Well, if you are running into deliver ability problems when the first things you should do is cut off, the people that haven’t been responding recently to your emails just stopped emailing them on ly email to the people that are engaging with your emails. You, khun slowly add back-up people and then see what happens, but you need to go down to your known good list and just use that for a while until you break through all of these algorithms on these eyes peace so that you could get be delivered again. Okay, so, it’s, sort of like rebuilding up your credit. Yeah, you get you get a a card that has a fixed amount that you paid in advance. You have to rehabilitate your reputation. It’s. True. Wow, it’s, what a lot of people would describe it is it’s a lot like credit in that. Like a new organization with a new list. These email providers don’t know who you are, so they give you a very low credit limit. Yeah. And you have to build up a good reputation, and sooner or later you’re good. And you can free much. Do what you want until you cause trouble. I have ah, have a threshold question. We gotta go back to what you said earlier on all three that you may not know. You have a problem. But aren’t you getting bounced back? Oh, are you know? Are you? Not all the time. Getting bounce backs. Anybody? So yes and no. So you get bounce backs, but bounce backs might not be a sign of anything horrible. It could just be that in box was filled. That’s that’s amounts that’s. Innocuous? Yeah. That’s. Not certainly not your fault. Right. Exactly. Under it could be just the system was down at that time, which is actually really common tubes break all the time, and i think yahoo always kind kind of goes down, um, so that could be an issue or could be the account just doesn’t exist anymore or shut down. And then what happens is least withy spam traps and honey pots is they’ll bounce it for six months, maybe a year, and then at that point, they cut it off. So if you’re swapping lists or buying lis, especially for someone that has a horrible habit, you won’t necessary no, because they might not be bouncing anymore. I always call it when i’ve described it is it’s an std they’ve been with someone than they knew someone that may have been some sewing span transmitted disease transmitted and then, you know, you catch something and you might not know it’s a problem. The best description effort from anyone it’s, zombies and that’s one or two is not an issue sent earlier. The horde shows up and you’re you know you’re out of luck at that point. Okay, you need to do some serious work. Alright, cool. All right, thank you go ahead, laura. Also, every mass e mail provider handles things a little bit differently, so you may or may not see big flashing red lights. You may or may not know that there’s a problem. Okay, weinger absolutely, it depends too on where you’re looking and if you’re actually going to check to see if you’ve got bounces. Esso, i think depending again on what provider you’re using, you may not be even clicking on the place where there are the big red flags. Okay, okay, brett let’s not turn to you on ly teo amplify suggestion. But let’s say, have you given organic suggestion? This is again. We’re back now, tio avoiding deliver ability problems. I think the biggest is cut the list. That’s. The one thing no one does, very few folks dio is you cut your list. You want it small, lean and active. You know you might have a million person list, but if only a thousand people are opening and clicking it’s not really impressive. Five five thousand person listened. Five thousand people are opening click it’s way better than the million person list but that logic and that thought, isn’t present generally. People looking more at the vanity metric. Yeah. How many money? Like how many likes it got in my face, it’s that activity people on my list outdated thinking, very outdated. Okay, other suggestions? Yeah. Good. You should try to get a replay. Latto raise your hands very subtle, but it is very, very thoughtful. Thank you. You should try to get your list to engage more because that’s something else that the ice piece are looking at is how many people are opening, clicking, taking action. All right, i gotta be gotta be tips for what can we do? Right? So send out, send out an action to your list or send out a survey. Something that people are going to want to engage with because just reading your emails may not be good enough to get you out of the ditch. A simple ah, simple forward. You’re some call the action we’re looking for is that right? But it’s gotta be measurable. Yeah. Don’t just do not not pick up the phone. That’s no good thie email services. They’re not going. Yeah, the iast piece are not going to recognize that. Not yet. Okay, wait, if they’re coordinating. With another exactly could that’s not that’s? Not inconceivable. Alright, what whether what little tips we got for simple calls to action survey surveys are massive. People love to talk about themselves to a survey, especially if they’re opening it at work and they want to procrastinate what they’re doing and they can spend five minutes filling out a survey, i think that’s okay, surveys cool forward is good. We got another one and be very specific to the individual. I’m in mind. I think if you asked, i think a lot of people here, they probably send the same e mail to everyone. Yeah, it’s crazy. You know, to e mail should be the same that you’re sending out. It should be very tailored to the individual and very specific to their wants and how they signed up in what they care about. The best example i always gave his corporate world’s amazon. The e mails you get from amazon are beyond tailored. I mean to the obnoxious level like you go look at a item, they’ll email you, what, two days later with that item and here’s a whole bunch of other suggestions there’s, no other email it. Looks like that that goes out and that’s what we’re all striving moving towards personalized email beyond beyond so it’s supposed to have a list of a modest size? Maybe our listeners are small and midsize non-profit so let’s, take a five thousand person list small in the big scheme of email, what do we need? A we need a service, teo, help us to personalize to this granular level that we’re talking about. What? Well, no, we don’t we don’t. I mean, i think what you want is to have a system where it’s, easy for you to tell a lot of different things about people, so, like, which of those people follow you on twitter and which of them don’t? Because you could say, hey, thanks for setting up for the email list would also love tto engage with you on twitter to the people who don’t write which people are your donors, which people aren’t, which people live in texas versus california, you know which people have r s v p for events in the past versus haven’t and all of those things tell you a lot of different data, so you could say cool here’s our people in texas who are donors who come to events, we want to send them a specific email about that. Like, thanks for all of your participation this year. That’s. Really wonderful. Actually, you could gather this by one of the other suggestions. Have a survey exactly, have a servant. Now you’ve got a bunch of data and it’s and it’s targeted to that person because they because we know that they click through on their e mail link to the service. And they told you what they care about. Yeah. Yeah, if you d all right. Okay. Okay. Excellent. But the others, i mean, depends how they sign up. Like, if you are organization, that takes on many issues and you have an action that’s, very specific. You know, that person cares about that action, so you should test it out and see if that’s the one action they care about, you know, there’s some orders that i know do environmental and maybe banking too, or some of its and they’ll send the banking stuff with environmental people, which makes no sense because that’s not what they care about. So, you know, paying attention to how they interact and where they sign up and what actions they take is key. The simplest is just the donor’s at the end of the year. If someone’s never donated online, why are you sending a fund-raising ask so ask him to do something else a way we kind of year. I know you’re getting a lot of donation ass. How about share this instead? And then maybe their friends will donate because they’re not going to donate. You’ve asked him one hundred times. I don’t think the hundred first is going to get him to chip in five bucks, so ask him do something else, okay, let’s, stick with the deliver ability recommendations. We got another suggestion for improving deliver ability. I think another one is just tow. Have your emails be simple? Like a lot of times, people want them tow have you no borders and embedded videos and, like get really complicated, but just because that technology exists doesn’t mean you should use it and the most delivery ble emails have no videos, maybe not even any pictures or just one. They have simple subject lines. Onda more complicated. You get the hyre rapid reputation you have tohave to even. Get in an inbox because it just looks really spam metoo the filters now, but video is increasingly recommended in email. Now bread is on the fence about that. Not so much. When i hear the wreck. I know it’s being recommended it’s being recommended it’s not supported in a lot of email providers that’s the other thing is, you know, what looks good in gmail doesn’t look good, and yahoo doesn’t look good on gmail on the phone versus female on the web, it’s all different, your email will look different in every single provider we’re just talking about this on the list were i don’t know if you’re on the list was they were talking about jeffs, and so it was like, yeah, a moving image. Okay on dh that’s becoming more maurin emails beyond video because it supported a bit more, but someone’s, like i got to do this and i was like, no, because you have outlook users and it doesn’t work in outlook, so unless you know who’s an outlook, you shouldn’t be sending this. So what does it look like that just a square with a question mark in the middle of it broken. Images just will be an image that’s not moving. So unless you’re first images solid it’s, it looks really goofy on dh there’s, entire services that are built up, just a handle, that sort of stuff and you could do amazing things and our ally on it is amazing and impressive, but i mean that point you really no need to know what you’re doing, okay? And we’re starting to get that. Now you need expertise. I help you with your email. So if budget is an issue, better to keep it simple and linked to late link to the video somewhere else, will ya? And you can take us screenshot of the video. Really that’s right? Laura, you got another one? Well, i agree with what harmony said about keeping it simple and also make sure that your emails perform well on mobile because more and more email is being opened up on mobile devices on smartphones on tablets. It’s a third orm or it might even be half from more these. Yeah, so you need to make sure that your emails do well on mobile because if it doesn’t look good, half your audience is going to give. Up, that’s pretty standard with bulk email provider’s, isn’t it yahoo? I don’t mean i’m a male chimp. Not so not so standard. Really? The mobile trouble optimization? No. Now i know i’m not really all right, so you need to investigate their decent there’s more than just using their mobile responsive template. Okay, there’s. Much more than that. I mean, like a great example would be what you have in the email if you ask her fund-raising ask in the and people are reading in a mobile, then you might need to make it really easy to give money. So if they’re landing page off that moment, mobile is difficult. You have to fill out a whole bunch of fields. It’s wasted too much trouble. Yeah, so it’s beyond just, you know, using their templates. Your image has to be a right size. Your form. It has to be a certain way, or your ass will be a certain way. It’s not just using a template. Uh, okay. And if if your organization has been around a while, probably your email templates date back a couple years, and they’re probably not mobile optimized. All right, we have. Ah, we have another minute and a half or so roughly let’s share some more. I mean, you guys were talking for ninety minutes. Gotta beam or what have you, what have you not shared yet? Don’t don’t hold out. Or we can go into more detail on something you’ve already share. My i think the big one is don’t get on your high horse, i think a lot of non-profits political organizations feel that they can do whatever they want when it comes to email and that’s not the world that we live in there’s very set rules, no matter what the law says, many of them hide behind, like the spam actors can spam in the us, but there’s more than just that when it comes the laws. So there is a legal aspect to all of it, and i no idea what a lot of time with shawn gets busted and they always hide behind that be like, no, we could do whatever we want we’re non-profit or a political organization that’s not true, and i’m just like i they don’t care. No, they think your mind is gmail, yahoo all them. They have clients and customers to they need to keep them happy. So you’re sending e mail cost them money so they don’t care. This isn’t the post office. Where there? Yeah, okay, yeah, harmony. I think my final thought would be that email isn’t the only thing out there and it should be part of a holistic strategy so good you should think about multi-channel total, exactly text blasting and phone calls and social media and door knocking and there’s lots of ways to talk to people on dh you don’t even know email can seem to be the easiest cause you just hit. Click if you’re thinking sort of your long term goals. It’s not necessarily the most effective thing and it’s not the only thing out there if you want to just include all of your options, including all the social channels. Naturally. Okay, laura, anything you want you want end us up with i would just say that. Keep in mind just because you want to send something doesn’t mean that your audience wants to receive it, that you need to keep them mind their wants and their needs and make sure that you aren’t talking just teo hear yourself speak that you are delivering your information in a way that your audience wants to hear it or they will too now. Okay, you guys, have you done your panel already? Later? Today you’re gonna have a lot of fun. I can tell your audience is your audience is gonna love you. Okay, i’m gonna recommend yours. I wanna thank you very much. Thanks. Thanks, everybody. Thank you. They are harmony eichsteadt evangelist for nation builder and brett shankar. Our email deliver ability specialist with every action. And laura packard partner at powerthru consulting. Thank you again. Thank you. This is tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntcdinosaur profit technology conference. Thank you for being with us. I can’t send live listen love this week by state and city because pre recorded but live listener love does go out to everybody who is listening live labbate that’s not really so well stated. But, you know we love our lives, listeners, affiliate affections. All our affiliates throughout the country. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Thank you. And again, katie. Artie, our latest and, of course, the podcast pleasantries over ten thousand of you listening. Maybe while you’re doing dishes. That’s. What? Someone told me lately. Listen then, whether treadmill, subway, car laying in bed, wherever it is. Whatever device podcast, pleasantries toe all of you. Tony’s take two and the open movement coming up first. I got to talk about opportunity, collaboration it’s an unconference it’s, an ex top of mexico for everybody working in poverty alleviation, there are non-profits from around the world you connect with people who can help you do your work. There’s lots of free time, deliberate free times you can meet people, make friends, figure out how you can help each other. It’s over eighty five percent sold out i was there last year. I’m going again this year. Amy sample ward will be there this year. There’s no plenary speakers there’s no power points every session is in a circle it’s collaborative opportunity collaboration three hundred fifty people from around the world getting together around poverty alleviation if that’s your work, you need to check it out at opportunity collaboration dot net i host fund-raising fundamentals for the chronicle of philanthropy that is my monthly podcast that is only a podcast never streaming live and it’s only ten minutes. It’s ten minutes once a month, and it’s devoted to fund-raising we’ve covered grants, events your board fund-raising planned e-giving major gif ts major gift relationships annual gifts mobile giving anything related to fund-raising that’s what’s on fund-raising fundamentals so if you love non-profit radio, then you might also love fund-raising fundamentals and there’s info on it at tony martignetti dot com it’s, also at the chronicle of philanthropy website, which is philanthropy dot com and that is tony’s take two for friday twenty sixth of june twenty sixth show of the year twenty six twenty six here is also from ntcdinosaur thie open movement welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the non-profit technology conference and t c twenty fifteen were in day to today we’re in austin, texas, at the convention center. My guests are carly leinheiser and craig sinclair. Carly is associate attorney for perlman and pearlman in new york city, and craig sinclair is digital media manager for the manhattan neighborhood network, and then then welcome from new york city. Both of you, thank you, and i’m there. I’m based there as well. Your seminar topic. I love it contributing to the commons strategies for using open licenses. I say i love it because i think there’s a lot of things that people have heard of, but not really sure what they what they mean or what they’re doing, what they want to be doing. Um, craig let’s, let’s, start with you. What? What? What’s the, uh, what’s the open movement open movement is the idea that everybody knows what they can use and share. Basically, i’d saythe digest it simply that when somebody creates something they usually doing it for-profit and it tends to be close that you have to buy it. That there’s vendor that there’s somebody there’s a transaction financially involved there open movement usually means you can share something clearly with somebody else about having to change hands with money. There may be something else you’re exchanging instead, but it’s being able to make sure everybody has access to it. Full access, carly, anything you want to add to the overview? Yeah, i think there’s also some particular philosophical points that go along with the open source movement specifically, which is sort of the older, open most men. One of the ideas with open source software is this idea of software freedom, so that you, as the user, should have the freedom to look at the software that you’re running and understand how it works. And not only do that, but then be able to make modifications to that software and then and then you can share those modifications, so you sort of add to the world of free software that’s available for everybody. But this focus on thie idea that user should have freedom to look at. The tools they’re using is important. It’s sort of the idea of being able to open the hood of your car and see how it works on dh model for modification is well, right. Okay, cool. Um, what’s the best way to start should weigh. Begin by talking about the three creative commons open source and open data. Those is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s. Sort of. The basic idea are these. What are creative commons? Open source and open data, right? So i guess a better way to describe it is they’re sort of different categories of works that are subject to copyright in different, different ways. So you have cultural works, which is what i think people usually think of when they think of copyright. So copyright a place of books, paintings, choreography, sculpture, anything that’s, a work of authorship that shows originality. S o copyright also applies to software in that source code is considered a literary work essentially. To put it simply on and then you have the idea of data, so data databases don’t have as much copyright protection. It’s sort of creative cultural works like i was describing, but if you have a sort of original or unique database, there might be some copyright protection there on then. There might also be copyright protection in the contents of the database. So if you have, ah phone book that’s, an alphabetical list of names. There’s, no copyright protection there, but say you have a database of, for example, the brooklyn museum isa great example. So they have ah, database online of all of their works. And you can search by license our or by works that are in the public domain. So they have a database that’s arranged by type of work and year and creator on and then the contents itself. Of that database being paintings and photographs are also covered by copyright. So then the open licenses are designed. Tio if you create a database or piece of software or cultural work, you could apply the appropriate licence to make your work open. S o that’s, where creative comments is creative commons licenses apply to cultural works to put it simply open source licenses to software and open data licenses to databases and their contents. Excellent. Excellent recitation. That’s. Perfect. Thank you. Very concise. Excellent. Craig, what is manhattan neighborhood networks interesting? This and that is that is that it’s the community access it’s, the union taxes tv from manhattan. Okay, and we have hundreds of producers who are making shows for us on a regular basis. And while most of it something they’re creating themselves, they may want music to go underneath that they may want to put an image up on screen. They won’t accept someone else’s video whenever you do that, unless you have a lawyer, you don’t necessarily know how legal it is on fair use in particular, which is often the thing that cited for re using something is open to such vast interpretation that usually the organization gets scared and we’ll say no, you can’t use anything else unless you have explicitly were viewed the copyright yourself or signed from someone whose organization being mn mn mn yes, on dh. Although we have for on air broadcast on television disclaimers off making it putting on producer, that still doesn’t. Help them! The organization may be protected, but we don’t want anything to happen to our producers over, so if they’re using something that has a creative commons license, for instance, which is simply the most common and popular of all the open license, nothing, they will know exactly what it is they can and can’t do with it. Usually we ask them to look for things that are non commercial anyway, because that’s then use it helping out somebody else in that field. But often, creative commons licenses will ask for attribution and to share alike, so when you’re using it, you’re also kind of giving back to the community because you are helping someone else who was a creator that shared something that you’re benefiting from and then you’re promoting them in turn by giving him a credit in our case on the television show and this is a nice way to kind of maintain the movement and paying it forward while you are producing you think excellent. So do you find yourself using open source and open data or not yourself? But your producers are they using those also for trying don’t really show much they thing. Is that sometimes we use the more without realizing it, so if you use the internet, the chances you’re using open source on a relatively regular basis you just don’t know because you may not go and look and see what tools have been used to make the site that you’re on. So were, for instance, a using open source is an organization because we used rupel content management system buy-in cvc aram to run our website and also our back and website, which manages all our producers, shed jewels or former television channels, all of our equipment and everything in an incredibly complicated initiative we’ve been involved with now since two thousand five called community media drew pool, so we chose that initially because we wanted to recognize is a non-profit that open source was more philosophically aligned with who we were, and we could tweak it and expand it as we needed. And yes, since two thousand five it’s changed pretty radically, but it’s incredibly stable and incredibly robust and weaken, we’ve been able to do what we’ve needed to make it available to our star from producers. Now pcrm is here, you and t c just stop! By have come of your own you love there there’s a there’s a lot of it’s, very rare to go to a place where people discuss their favorite sea around that you see that that’s what ndcc for exactly, but no savy ciroma fabulous! They also of the the open source efficient are those open source choice in many ways they very xero if you go into their convention, then you’ll suddenly realize the people there are the ones that make everything and they’re just so friendly and access. All right. Close community. Yeah, it’s really seriously around is very, very special place to call grayce kottler let’s, let’s spend a little time with well for both of you, but moved to carly creative commons. Now i see creative commons on youtube azan option for what kind of licensing you want your video and i think that’s a cz we’ve used both said it’s, the most common what exactly does it mean? So what does that mean, teo? Like if you upload a video to youtube, if you’re to apply that lesson period of comments to video, right, so so there’s six different creative commons licenses on dh they basically the different licenses have to do with what kind of restrictions you put on somebody’s use of your video eso you khun sort of most basic lana’s you just ask for attribution back, which means if someone were to take that clip that you uploaded to youtube and reason, they would have to credit you back-up if they make something there’s also share legs, if they make something new, they would have to put it out under the same license. They’re non commercial and no derivatives restrictions, no derivatives means they can’t change it, but they could redistribute it. S o if you actually, if you are blowing up to you to be there is also an option to choose the license on flicker a a bunch of other sites, or this is sort of getting more common. Um, that means you’ve sort of tagged your work with this license on dh, so you’re giving permission to anybody who comes across it to use it a song as they comply with those conditions. You’ve also made your work searchable by licence, which i think is a cool thing that creative commons does, so they when they talk about their licenses. They say there are three layers there’s, the legal code, the next layers, the human readable code because, you know, lawyers obviously we’re way don’t write things for human story on, and then the third layer is the machine readable code. So your computer khun search engines khun search for these licenses and actually creative comments is a search feature. If you go to search that creative commons dot com, you can put in what you’re looking for and you have an option to search clip art flicker, google image, search all sorts of different sites for works that you can use and you can put which conditions you want. So if you need something just for, like non commercial purposes, it’ll give you those. If you want something you could use for any purpose, i’ll give you that right about in the implementation of creative commons that m n n craig, anything like lessons lessons learned among your hundreds of producers, the main one is that no one, really you’re the in the field guys are no one really understands what copyright is or how it applies to them used to be that you would mail yourself something you’ve made registered post, it seems and not leave it unopened and now it’s away, but even for us is the broadcaster but some other community media stations it’s unclear whether it’s, the organization or the producer that actually then owns the copyright and no one is kind wants to sort of say they do or they don’t. Everybody that produces something kind feels they own it. So in explaining creative commons, it takes the world for people to grasp it, but when they do, they’re kind of amazed the issue tends to be that a lot of people in all spears feel that when they’ve made something they’re proud of, they deserve to be financially recompense for it on dh. What we’ve tried to say is it’s one of the things you can benefit from is you’ll be more likely to have it distributed if you’ve given it a license to share it because otherwise no nose and if they are, they may be doing illegally and all right? Well, they’re fine. Many, many examples of people illegally showing a thing on television to too many people are singing the song in the group, which had never crack down on when someone’s made it and put it out onto the internet in particular, you want them to be able to have it sent on. And i think, why you? When we’ve said, if you use creative commons, someone knows what they can do with it. And they also more likely to know who was created it. That has begun to get traction slowly with the long term producers. Okay. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that or an a a me levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests are there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Dahna carly, anything more you want ad about creative commons before way, proceed. No, i think that probably covers it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. How about open source? Just remind us what open source applies to what kind of content? So open source supplies teo software essentially and there’s sort of two different philosophies. So a lot of people refer to it is free and open source after because they’re sort of the software freedom side that i talked about earlier and then there’s this idea of open source, which sort of focuses on the collaborative benefits of are the benefits of buildings after in a collaborative fashion. So the idea is you’re going to get better software if if the source is open, everyone can look at it. You have more eyes looking for bugs and issues, andi and then sort of people who start to use it if you’re free to modify you. Khun seo there’s there’s a feature i want that i don’t have. And i could just build that in. And then if you’re using a share like listens. So the most common share like license in the open source context is the gpl dig. A new general. Public license? Yes, if you’re working with softer that’s licensed under that license, if you make modifications and redistribute them, you have to share it under the same license. So that’s, how the commons grows in the open source context. Okay, okay. Craig, in the community what? One of the things we do with it is because i’m not a developer, but we’re using it. We give back in another way as well. So although i can’t be can’t country code back off, then i will find bugs. I’ll find issues i’ll post about them to highlight them for other people. All right, documentation. So i’ve used that i know how to install it. Maybe i know then how to configure it for different needs, that we have an ecosystem of people toe they recognized by using it that they’re not required to give back. But if they do it’s going to help everybody, and so there’s the general usually kind of for drew people in service. Erm from the one you get a default installation off it, and then you, khun, do whatever you want afterwards and you know that you have that strong base to build on and that is something which you, khun help then with the extensions that come along with it. We’ve also my last job in amherst, massachusetts smaller community tv station didn’t have enough money for a network hard drive for the building, so we used open source for hardware, and we bought we built something for probably a tenth of the market cost, just by having access to local people that want it there was that was what they want to play with. They were producers in the sense that they were technologists are over the television makers, and they would not have had this opportunity to use this equipment themselves because they could not afford it. We would have not been out to take advantage of their their skills over ways. And so we created a situation where we got something we needed for much more affordable and actually much more stable than we would have done by going into the market. I love the flourishing of the community and is the sort of equality of it and egalitarian and the country contributing. You got me wanting to say, contributing to the contributing, you know, i just, uh, it’s it’s just very inspiring. The movement is the movement is growing. Yes, growing. It’s your encouraged if you if you look at the piece that played the places and people who use open source it’s incredible. I mean, the white house website thing was the most famous first one to be using drew triple. But second, that we just learned this i’m not. I wish i wish she would set it first cause then i would admonish people you always should be listening to non-profit radio because in the last segment we learned that drew people is this is the the the back end of the whitehouse dot gov write remarkable love that yeah. Okay, so we’re encouraged the movement is flourishing. Hopefully, yeah, i mean exact conferences like this it’s interesting example to see how much open source there is compared to how much vendor options for the same thing and it tends to be the open source. Somebody will just have an idea they don’t have access to over resources. So they look around and see what there is and then they create. There were, like maker events and hackathons people. They they will often try and replicate something else. They’ve seen and in order to do that themselves, these are the tools they found on dh. Other ways. They will then make the tools themselves. So it’s it’s, kind of a nice way to express your creativity into the sandbox, where you were allowed to use all the toys and develop new ones that no one’s thought of. Yet. I love it. Carly let’s. Talk about open data for our data base. Sure, so i think the open data movement is sort of the newest movement. And so there there aren’t a ton of different licenses yet, but the basic idea is that open data again should be if you build a database, should be freely available for anybody else to use either with attribution or if you make modifications to the database of the contents. There’s there’s, a share like open database license as well that you can use. I think what gets tricky about open data is first of understanding. Um, what parts of the database are actually subject to copyright and where you need to worry about a license? Because, again, if you’re talking about a phone book, that’s just names alphabetically, there’s not really any copyright issues. Um, so and and the other thing is there’s this sort of weird concept of database rights, which we don’t have in the united states but exists in the european union and a few other countries and the idea there it’s not a copy, right? It’s ah it’s a protection in the investment that the database maker put into making the database on dh so they get some protection for that time investment and the ideas where those database right supply other people can’t use a substantial portion of the database without permission so creative commons in these open database licenses had to figure out how teo sort of waive those rights in additions, any copyrights in the database if you happen to be in a jurisdiction where they apply s i think that could be a little tricky, especially because if you’re just in the united states and those don’t apply, you maybe could use the database without a license at all, and you don’t want to sort of restrict people unnecessarily if they had the right to use the database in the first place since s i think those are those are some of the issues with open data, i think e think there’s also some entrusting things going on in big data generally where i think people are thinking about how to use large amounts of data and make sure you’re using it ethically and that you’re not sort of infringing people’s privacy and thinking about what your looking that so to me. That’s, that’s some of the more interesting er action in data, okay. And, of course, from the snowden disclosures an enormous, enormous topic. Okay, what do you mean, what? Do you have? How are you using open data were not really using at the moment, i think it is us thing come along, but i’m really interested in it because of what people are doing when they talk. You realize how much is being shared that no one’s aware ofthe so most of the times i’m i’ve come across its being a group like the sunlight foundation who made a prize application programming interface is for people to use and just not generous. Generous you are to explain a p i from listeners who may not know because theon non-profit radio we have drug in jail. You just you you avoided it completely durney probation? Not even i mean parole not even required grayce warrant sentence it’s one of the ones i think i have to say myself for a moment, if you ask me what? Actually that means in a more detailed technical way, we’ll reach a threshold printing quickly. Okay, you’re greek. They have, like looking at so federal state and local data means that you can use those for your organization and begin to filter it so you can find out about things like voting records. Or use of resources on dh then the everyone would be transit often. I just set right piece about baltimore had said it was gonna cost six hundred thousand, no way think six million dollars to do some project and take years. It took one guy a weekend to work out. He contacted his friends, who then build something in the next couple of days, just for fun and for free to show it could be done. So if there is data it’s off knowing yes, how open it actually is whether you are allowed to access it, and i think you’re right with snowden revelations, people are more cautious about this. They don’t want to trespassed against it, but when you realize that you can if you have access to it, find out this over information and use it to help people out. That it’s a very compelling topic, which i think next year at this conference is going to be a much bigger deal. Moron, open data to come. Okay, well, we’ll be at ntc steen. I think they’ll have us back. Are we gonna leave it there? Thank you very much. Reinardy leinheiser, associate attorney perlman and perlman and craig sinclair, digital media manager at manhattan neighborhood network carlene krauz, thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for sharing and sharing openly on dh, but we won’t. We won’t make any modifications. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntcdinosaur profit technology conference thanks so much for being with us. Lots of thanks to everybody at the non-profit technology network. I loved being at ntc this past march. Next week there is no live show it’s fourth of july affiliates. I will of course, have an excellent archives show for you. Got to take care of our affiliates. Affiliate affections happy fourth of july, everyone next week hope you enjoy your long weekend. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com opportunity collaboration with world convenes for poverty alleviation. It’s an outstanding unconference that will ruin you for every other conference opportunity collaboration dot net. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is on the board as the line producer. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, susan chavez dot com and our music is by scott stein be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other, ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Hey! 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