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Nonprofit Radio for November 1, 2019: This Could Be Our Future

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Yancey Strickler: This Could Be Our Future
Yancey Strickler is co-founder of Kickstarter and he’s written a book that’s a manifesto for a more generous world. We’ll talk about his vision for the hour.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Uncle Sir Chi Assis. If you bit me with the idea that you missed today’s show, this could be our future. Yancey Strickler is co founder of KICKSTARTER, and he’s written a manifesto for a more generous world. We’ll talk about it for the hour on Tony’s Take Two Looking for Innovators were sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software. The Notley fundez They’re Complete Accounting Solution Made for non-profits Tony dahna a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen too DOT CEO. I’m pleased to welcome to the show, and the show is in a different location today. Altum playing that in a second. Yancey Strickler. He’s a writer and entrepreneur, is the cofounder of Kickstarter and author of the book This Could Be Our Future, a manifesto for a more generous world. He’s been recognized as a young global leader by the World Economic Forum and one of Fast Cos most creative people. He’s spoken at Sundance TriBeCa Film Festival. Lots of other places you will know he’s at, Why Strickler and why? Strickler dot com and Nancy. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Tony. It’s a real pleasure to have you. Um, I’m I’m a little intimidated talking to somebody Wrote a manifesto. You know, you could just name your book whatever you want. Just to be clear, there wasn’t the manifesto committee that approved it. I know it. Sze very worldly. Yes, it’s very It’s very big idea. So it’s a little intimidating, but nonetheless, I mean, I had I had to swallow hard as well before bilich being willing to own manifesto being in the title of the book. But I did, Yeah, I mean, that was a That’s a terrifying thing to do, but I I lacked a better word. You know, I wasn’t sure really. What else to say It waas because it’s not a It’s not a legal case. It’s not an emotional case. It’s sort of a mix of feelings of, you know, interpretation of the world and some new ideas like that. Well, I appreciate you think that’s a difficulty with So we are on East 76th Street. It’s a Sunday afternoon, Nancy, Uh, wasn’t ableto come when we had scheduled because of illness, and I didn’t want to lose me getting him. The book is coming out in just a matter of a couple of days. Right? November 1st October 3 night. Okay, we’re just a couple days before that. Um, I didn’t want to miss the opportunity. So we’re, uh we’re at a friend’s apartment on East 76th Street on 29th floor overlooking the Hudson River. The FDR It’s the East River. Absolutely. The East River east. 76 Thank you very much. The East River FDR, Um, why would you want to see it? It’s great. It’s It’s a cloudy, overcast day, but still beautiful. Still mean. I love the beach, but I can appreciate concrete on drivers as well. All right, so because it’s a Sunday, we’re doing this unorthodox. Not your average studio experience. So it’s a Sunday so dense and I relaxing. So we’ve got some cheese, got little organic toasts, and we have a bottle of wine And while I open the bottle of sauvignon blanc, I’m gonna ask you, Yancey, tell us about your days of kick starting. The book’s not about kickstarting record spending a lot of time, but you, you, you you talk about it. You know, you talk about some fear, some self doubt, thousands of people relying on you for their projects. Employees counting on you. What were those days like? I don’t start beginning. Start in the middle, but yeah. I mean, what’s it like to do a project like, be a pioneer in something like Kickstarter? Um, you know, Kick kick Starter was in kind of an accidental journey a bit, you know, it’s like for the three of us. He started it. There wasn’t a desire to be entrepreneurial. It was just really being compelled by my co founder, Perry Chins. Brilliant idea for crowdfunding and realizing that executing that idea meant starting a company and all kinds of things that I’ve never thought about before in my life. But yeah, I mean, what the beauty of that is that it let us create kickstarter in a way that fit our image of what we thought a company should be and what it meant. Thio build a product in the service that was very communal oriented and that lead to things like becoming a public benefit corporation and variety of choices that we made in how we structured the company you committed early on, never to sell it, never to take it public. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the idea was just the idea was, just do what’s best for Kickstarter rather than what’s best for us. And you know that that’s those early days. I think that’s what it was mattered. Yeah, but I you know, I write in the book about the challenges I felt as a as a leader. You know, I was the CEO of Kickstarter from 2014 to be into 2017 and, you know, it was a phenomenal experience. Be a very, very challenging one. Like when you’re when you’re the one sitting in the chair, you’re like, never not worried. You’re never not having existential nightmares, you know, it’s just it’s always there for you on. That’s part of being a leader is you have to have to get comfortable with that. I eventually learned to just like I have to make friends with the anxiety I’m always carrying because this is the anxiety carries a leader is a challenge. It’s also helpful to you. You know, you’re probably not wrong about the things you’re worried about. Maybe you’re worried in a more extreme way than reality. But, you know, you have to listen. Listen to that sixth sense that you have, because it’s especially the founder of the head of it. You know, if you started your organization like you’re the one that’s really gonna know what’s what’s right or wrong, like in a deeper level. And then you even had a fear of maybe not worrying about some of the right things. Yeah, like there’s things out there that are not focused on. Yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, no one put it better than Donald Rumsfeld. Bless his heart. But the idea being known knowns and then unknown, unknown And that was always my concern were the unknown unknowns. What air? What are the things coming that are just not even on my radar is a leader, and, um, yeah, that, you know, you could waste a lot of energy on that, but also it’s kind of every organization needs someone worrying that way, because if you’re only thinking about what’s right in front of you, you’re you’re gonna get shocked by something at some point along the line. So it’s one of those things where you like you have 99 straight days of existential dread that is like all the waist and then the 100th day, You’re like, Well, I’m gonna not gonna worry about anything today And then that’s that. That’s that happens. That’s that’s always your fear is a leader, and, um and you know, it makes me that experience. It just really makes me respect leaders and feel like we, you know, leaders get a lot of rewards. A lot of financial rewards for CEOs, things like that. Those people are lionized and are idolized in the press. But there’s another way in which I think leaders still don’t quite get enough respect for what it is you take on, especially like mid level leaders, just leaders at every every level. Like we, the world really relies on sound leadership and people who have that, you know, I kind of have it that like burning feeling in their stomach that, like they have something to give. Like they you just feel compelled to serve others like we desperately need those people. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for coming again. And at the same time, you have people telling you that what you’ve created is, uh, is illegitimate that they want the financial upside of people funding projects are gonna want the financial upside those projects, they’re not gonna do it for altruistic reasons. Yeah, so and you’ve got a little first we first started and we were telling people like there’s gonna be this web site where people propose ideas to make movies and things like that, and fans are going to support them. And then the potential investors we would need would say, Oh, great. So and then the fans, like, get a cut of the box office receipts. You know, like that’s that’s not the idea. The idea is you, like, get a copy the movie first, or you get your name in the credits, you get something else. But we were trying to, you know, replace or create an alternative to, ah, model that’s already based on putting money into projects For reasons of getting a financial return. There’s there’s a lot of negative feedback. And you you need to see the vision and persevere beyond. Yeah. I mean, as an entrepreneur. Yeah, you have. You have to. You have to believe, you know, you have, like, Peter Thiel has the great line about, like, what do you believe in that no one else believes. So you have to have those kinds of things, you know? You also have to have the moment where you’re willing to let something go be like, Well, maybe I am wrong about this, and it’s hard to know where that where that line is. That’s That’s tricky for all of us. But you do need that, too. I gotta stop us for sex because I gotta take care of our sponsors. Sure, And this one is for Wagner. CPS. They’ve got a free wagon are on November 13th. Sexual harassment learned to identify it, which it’s not always clear what harassment is in the workplace. That alone is worth Well, this is free. But that alone is worth worth, learning also what the law requires you to do as an employer and tips for building a stronger team that works together and prevents workplace harassment. Goto koegler cps dot com Click resource is than upcoming events. Let’s go back to, uh, this could be our future. Just a little artificial, but I need to take care of anything. Cover sponsors. So sure, I’m just in transfers. You don’t worry about Don’t worry about me. I’m just enjoying the view. You enjoy the train on floor view of the Hudson River now, um, so that I want to move to the book is that’s why people are listening. And it is It’s It’s a very different way of thinking and expanding our values beyond what has what we’ve created. And you make the point that it can change. We created, we can change it. So now I’m I get the idea that you’re you’re fairly low questions, but we only have an hour, and we only have, like, another 45 minutes or so. Okay, so if I interrupt you sure I’m not rude. There are some things that people Okay, great guy. Please. Right. I’m so apologizing. Upfront. Um, remains will start with financial maximization way. It’s something we’ve created. It’s something you want. Oh, transcend. Go way beyond What’s financial maximization? Yes. The first half of the book Explorer introduces a theory that I have that the world has been overtaken by a belief that the rational choice in any decision is whichever option makes the most money and that this is the default setting that runs the world. And I call this belief financial maximization on this idea is so pervasive around us now that the right choice and a decision, it’s whichever option makes the most money that we think that it’s just always been like this. This is just the natural order of things. But in the book, I make the argument that this idea entered the bloodstream in 1970. The specific moment essay by Milton Friedman was sort of happening in a moment where there was a debate whether businesses had some social responsibility during the Vietnam War, ever all Americans were sacrificing Cos we’re not. Is that right? And an end to this debate? Freedom made this argument that the responsibility of the business is to maximize profits for shareholders, and and this is the moment where the way the world operated began to change. And there’s all sorts of different statistics and things I sight in the book to make that case, but you just gotta get the book way. Can’t ever. But we can’t cover. There’s there’s this. It’s just this belief is invisible, but it’s so deeply lodged in our society that is just answering every question for us and and it’s wrong. It’s wrong. You know that there’s certain sort of decisions where, yes, what what is the best financial dot com makes sense is how to do it if you’re making a budgeting choice or something, by all means. But we’re using it to decide education to decide the future of science that we’re using its reshaping our neighborhoods, where we live like it is. It is an idea that has surpassed human being’s capacity to do anything, and it’s really it’s overwhelming us. And Kick Start is a perfect example off the fact that this does not have to be it does not weigh the way we live in the way we make decisions. People did not get financial maximization from the projects they fund. I give examples of kickstarter of Patagonia of Chick fil A being closed on Sundays. The pop star del I give a lot of examples of people that are notable because they’re making different kinds of choices. And also these are people who are like real market leaders. And I think part of what makes those companies distinct is that they’re operating from a different set of values than their competitors, and it makes him stand out. And I feel like I feel like they they should be a sign of the future of what’s to come, you know, early on in the book. So I’m taking notes, get this page of notes and early on I wrote that. Okay, he says, financial maximization, not the only form of value that we should protect and grow. So I’m questioning. But is it the first? And by the end of the book, we’re midway through the book, I’m realizing, No, it’s not necessarily. It’s not necessarily. First, we’ll get into bento boxes in your individual value systems. But, um, I wondered early on, and I answered my own question. No financial maximization. It’s important. You said you’re not anti money. It’s just propio people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, um I mean, it’s documented that without without financial security, the life spans of companies and people are shorter, so I money is rationally important. But there is a point at which its importance starts to diminish and where and where the pursuit of on Lee financial value leads to the degradation of other values that are even more important. Yeah, you list some and and I thought of something Fairness, mastery, purpose, community knowledge, family, faith. And everybody’s got their own. This is where we get to the bento box for immediate and longer term, both for ourselves and for the for the world for society. Um, this was something your dad grew up Is a traveling waterbed salesman. Yeah, Well, how does that work? How do you travel in Sell waterbeds, brick and mortar kind of thing. Yeah, well, he’s sorry. He started in the in like, 74 it started by getting existing furniture stores to have a waterbed section. And so he went to every store in the South and would try to get them to create a waterbed showroom on would also be. And what someone would buy a waterbed from one of those stores. He would go on, install it, and he would, like, help teach that person had a care for the water bed. So the effort. 30 years My father worked as a waterbed salesman. He’s still a bed salesman in the mall. But now you know, this is like the temper Pedic era way gone from water to air in terms of weight. But, you know, as a result, I’m a strong defender of betting Salesman is my thought. My father’s knowledge is extraordinary. And when I hear like Casper ads that are trying to trash on salesman that air like No, these are My father knows a lot. My father could help you get a good night’s rest, but yeah, he’s a waterbed salesman and a country and folk musician. And so, yeah, that’s, you know, that you were a music critic. You grew up in Virginia. Yeah. I grew up on a farm in Southwest Virginia and always dreamed of being a writer and moved to New York after college and got a job reviewing records for the village voice and riding blurbs for radio stations. And, you know, I manage a hack out a living writing about music for about eight years before kickstarter happened. So I already felt like I was successful just by the fact that I I mean, my dream growing up was just to get out of where I waas. And so they come to New York was kind of It was a dream fulfilled. And then having my byline and spin magazine was a dream fulfilled. Yeah, I’ve been very fortunate that these been able to, you know, reach these things in my life. You thank your dad for exposing you to music. Yeah, Yeah, for sure. In the acknowledgements, for sure. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, in terms of just your own, um, adherence to what you’re proposing in the book that we look beyond financial maximization, I s I saw as that example kickstarter that you would agreed early on. It wouldn’t it would be for the people and for the projects. Yeah, not for your own financial maximization. Yes. And I, you know, country contrast that to what we’re seeing in the news just this past week or 10 days. We work out of Newman and we work. Um, it’s a The financial maximization is pervasive, but we can’t change it. Yeah, just imagine that we’re going to see Adam Newman’s name. Unlike the list of the 20 richest people, probably for the next 30 years. And we’re gonna have to know And, you know, I never meet each other. I’ve never met him, But just the idea that like that, Yeah, just how that happened. It’s It’s it’s gonna be very emblematic of this era. Um, yeah. I mean, you know, it’s, uh yeah, but you also say, you know, the world is not as solid as we think it is a kickstarter again. Kickstart an example you pioneered crowd crowd funding on so we can make changes. Yeah, all right. Although, um, how do we How do we start to for people in non-profits? So these are small and mid sized non-profits. Fund-raising is a critical task for probably 95% of our listeners and the other 5% of supporting fund-raising. It’s not critical to them, but it’s important. How do we start to move beyond financial maximization? Well, you know, for non-profits, I think it would be about it’s about thinking about impact on. I think maybe it’s having maybe it’s having a different sort of impact story to use to possibly raise raise more money down the line or something like that. But like, um, you know, in the in the first half of the book, I make this argument about financial maximization sort of overwhelming us. And in the second half, I argue that in the past 50 years we had once been a society ruled by values, the idea of what’s right or wrong or what’s meaningful. And then steadily, we switched to being a society run by value and value, really meaning financial value, and that there’s like many practical reasons why this makes sense like financial value is instantly calculated, like before making decisions on moral values. That’s messy. We probably believe different things. There’s a lot of translation that has to happen. And so the world switched to a focus on value and that and that’s what we’ve been stuck. That’s easy. Anything we can calculate about my total very simply and you know it’s undeniable. It’s undeniable, and you can use money to buy anything else on. You know, just the problem is that the conversion fees are hell you know on, and that’s what we’re finding. So what I do is I show like the emblem of the financial maxim Mason maximization mindset, I think, is the hockey stick. Graph a chart of your self interest, where the lines going up into the right. This is like the ultimate. You’ve made it kind of success story, and one day I was just doodling that in a notebook, and I just happened to you draw the lines for the X and Y axes of that hockey stick graph out farther because I realized that both of those extend the X axis of time goes from now all the way into the future. And the Y axis of our self interest goes from me to us. As our self interest grows, so does its. So does our responsibility for other people. And so I drew this and I ended up seeing that there were actually four different spaces that lived there, and I thought of these is all spaces of our self interest. There is now me, which is the bottom left corner of this graph. That’s where the hockey stick is. That’s what I want to need right now. There’s future me the bottom right box, and that is imagining the the grey hair version of yourself that made all the right choices you living in the obituary? You wish you could have. If it’s the gray haired version you’re looking at your future metoo. Yes, we’re talking. Yes, yes. Great Apple Brown. So you’re thinking about Yeah. What? What do I need to live up to? Their Finally, There’s also the now us the top left box. And that is about the people who rely on and who rely on you and then the top right boxes called Future us. And that is the next generation. And so there’s four distinct spaces here now me future, me now us future us. And I argue that every choice we make impacts all of these bases, all of these spaces impact us all the time. But today we operate believing that Onley that now me space of what I want and need right now. But that is the only rational space. Everything outside of that is sort of like emotional, questionable how real it is. And so we struggle to make decisions, considering the future or considering our collective needs. And this is why we’re, you know, sitting on her hands about climate change. This is why loneliness and depression are increasing because these air, not spaces we are feeding. We’re not protecting. We’re not growing value in the opioid epidemic. Yeah, these air, all this is all like, we just we just have his very limited notion of our self interest that has trapped us. And so I call this Bento is, um, like a bento box. And I call it a bent like a bento box. Because the bento the word derives from a Japanese word meaning convenience. And the bento has four distinct compartments or more, each one carrying a different kind of dish. So a bento always has a variety of dishes. It’s a balanced meal in the Bento also honors a Japanese dieting philosophy of Hotta Hachi Boo which says the goal of a meal is to be 80% full. That way, you’re still hungry for tomorrow. So Bento is, um is the same idea for our self interest, our values and even the definition of what is valuable. So in the book, I focus really on its uses, like, just like a framework of making sense of the world also has a personal values tool, a way to make self-funding decisions. And in the long term, the long term of this, I think, is that thes new bento space is being used to tow launch searches for new forms of value. Like can we define what sustainability is as a metric? Can we define the future of space value that suddenly we’re all start to optimize for alongside the now me financial value? And if if we can water down the monopoly of financial value by elevating the communal value, a sustainability value and maybe like a purpose related value alongside them Um, I think very naturally our choices will improve and will become better on. So you can’t. What I’m thinking is that you can’t We can’t rely on the world getting better by everyone getting woke or changing their values to be everyone goody, goody or something. I don’t think that’s a reasonable expectation, but can we have Ah ah, global increase of our self awareness that just permits us to see where our footprints were really being left. And I’m an optimist about human beings where I think that we do the best we can with what we know. It’s a part of my quest for this book was to think what new knowledge could we possess that would dramatically improve our ability to evolve from where we are now. And to me, it’s a new understanding of our self interests in a new understanding of value and not only individual, but you talk about toward the end. You talk about the organizational Benton? Yes. So that can also get concerned. We have value. Non-profits. Yes. Thinking again, not only lower left. Yeah, individual today organization today, but but globally and in the future for the organization. Yeah. So I you know, I’ve been leading these workshops. I’ve done four of these in my house and in l. A where I’ve been teaching people how to build their bentos. How you in each one of these bases there, there’s you can define what that is for you. What is your now me about? What is your future me about? And so I’ve done that for myself. And I’ve used that to make every major life choice for about a year. And I teach people how to do that and give them practice, using it to make decisions. And And I want to do that for organizations too. But the way I talk to people about us. I say this. This is a path to self coherence, right? Because the modern world requires us to compromise ourselves all the time. We do things we don’t want to do for money, because we have to. We think it’s like the more grown up thing to do, and in some cases, maybe it’s true. But I believe that there is an opportunity. If we really look at the whole picture that we can always create a self coherent choice that fulfills who we are that puts us at our best. That and that is like, truly benefiting the world. And not just this very narrow concept of what progresses You sight Konosuke Matsushita, his book not for bread alone. He’s the founder of Panasonic. Founder was founder of Paterson. Yeah, and he talks about some of the five spirits. Um, and if we need to look, I could get the book. Yeah, shoretz like the spirits. Yeah, I didn’t write them down, but, uh, but like you say, you say a little more about what? Yeah, You Why? You like that book? Yeah, Matsushita. He started the first electrical company in Japan. And like 1917 and he’s making lights on, uh, started for, like, bikes. He was a teenager, and, um and he just had. So he wrote that he wrote a book. He started writing books in the seventies and eighties, just reflecting on his life, and they are remarkably wise and humane. And I found this one not for bread alone, just just a collection of, like, kind of aphorisms from his career. And, um, and he’s just really someone that sees the big picture. And even in 1930 he explained, the 200 year mission of Panasonic was to was to eradicate poverty from the world. Like that was the reason why he started the company. Was he saw in his fellow Japanese citizens poverty and thought, This is the way to lift us out of this. Just reminds me of the company. Seventh Generation. Yeah, For every for every decision, we must consider the the impact seven generations. That which comes from Native American tradition, I don’t know. But the company do you know, the company said on all their packaging says we must consider the impact of the next seven generations. That’s fantastic. Yeah, Matsushita, you know, he’s a great writer and this I read this book while I was like having a lot of, you know, existential questions as a CEO, just like feeling so out of sync with the zeitgeist around me. Like that’s just preaching. Ah, hyper aggressive level of kind of leadership that I just know isn’t in me. And and I really struggle with this idea of like, Well, maybe someone like me isn’t can’t be leader. Maybe I’m the wrong person to be a leader. And then I read Matsushita’s book and I felt a kinship and felt like, Oh, here’s like, Here’s a very wise man who is yeah, speaking something that feels very true to me. You say we sort of became a mentor? Yeah, yeah, I would just tryto I would try to imagine I was him because there are all these scenes where it’s like his head of sales comes to him with this problem and, you know, and Matsushita has to, like, help him sort it out and always his answer is he finds a way to sort of like cut through the situation where he’s not. He’s not answering the surface question. He’s able to perceive what is the question underneath this and is able to answer that instead. And, yeah, I think Matsushita would love the Bento. I think Ben Tooism would be. I think he would identify with it very much. And, um, yeah. So, like, you know, the I think we all desire to hold these things in mind to think about our families were choices, But what? We’re trained. And it’s so easy to just fall back to the life of a default. Yeah, to the default. And so the idea here is Can we build a new muscle memory on dhe? Yeah. Just incorporate a new way of thinking. I gotta take a break for a second. I’m concerned I’m drinking more wine than you. So you got about a minute or so men and 1/2 actually. Thio, relax. Enjoy the view, have a little cheese and drink some wine. And this break 61% of Cougar Mountain Software’s customers stay with them for more than 16 years, which I think is terrific retention rate, and it’s no surprise the product is made for non-profits Includes built in fraud prevention, fund accounting grant and Doner management. Phenomenal support. What you’ve heard testimonials about koegler. Mountain has a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at Tony dahna may Slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’m still looking for innovators and Yancey Strickler would have been one, but he didn’t want to wait until the first quarter when I’m doing my innovator Siri’s so I don’t second week in a row, I indulge in author um, last week it was Leah Garces s. So But you don’t have to have written a book. You don’t have to have been a tech pioneer to be an innovator. I’m just looking for people who tackle problem differently. Then tradition. Conventional wisdom, you know, best practices would would suggest, and you’re being successful at. We need. We need some degree of success to. You can’t just be going off and not really showing any impact. So if you have, if you have a different way of looking at some problem that faces non-profits, then I’d like to talk to you because I’m doing this innovator Siri’s first quarter of 2020. You can get me through the contact page at tony martignetti dot com or just emailed Tony at 20 martignetti dot com. If you’re innovating, let’s talk and that is Tony. Stick to, um, let’s do a little live listener love. I don’t know where the live listeners are cause, like I said, you know, pre recorded. But if you’re there, if you’re listening, live to the this live stream love goes out to you whether you are checks in often Mexico City, Germany, South Korea or your New York, New York. But you get a lot of listeners from get a lot of listeners from California. North Carolina Double wear has been checking in recently. Wherever you are listening live, the love goes out to you and to the podcast audience. The pleasantries you got to the podcast pleasantries. That’s where the vast majority of our 13,000 listeners are. I don’t know. You probably bunch it all together. You may be listening Thio six or eight shows in a row. I don’t know. However you do your podcast listening. The pleasantries goes out to you go out to you because I’m grateful that you’re with us. Thanks so much for listening. Whether it’s live or podcast. Okay, can see. Let’s continue. Amen. The name of the book. I want to remind people that the book is This could be our future, a manifesto for a more generous world Like all the, uh, author’s books. Join me. You just got to get it because in an hour we can’t cover all the depth. Dancing goes into detail about some of the implications of financial maximization for entertainment. Radio movies, Broadway. You talk about Broadway? I see it on Broadway, you know, mentioned Broadway. I I see too many remakes, but he has lots of implications of financial maximization. Um, and lots of good stories like you mentioned Adele Patagonia. A lot of detail about that may well get into one of one of those. Or so you also talk about the mullet economy, which is an implication off the thes whimsical um, ideas. So I want Oh, yeah, I want to explain The bullet economy have grew out of frame maximization. Yeah, when I when I when I think about the impact of four decades now of financial maximization, the image that came to mind one day was the mullet on dhe. I trust everyone remembers the mullet. It’s the forget the height of eighties hair technology with business and front and party in the back, and and it’s got everything you need. And so where we are now is we’re living in the mall. In economy, where for 90% of people for workers, it is business in front with wage freezes, layoffs and Maur job and security than ever before. People working multiple jobs to make a living wage. And this is happening during the most profitable period in human history and the most profitable nation on earth. And right now, at this time, 43% of Americans can’t afford their bills every month. Most proper, most prosperous nation in the history of Earth, 43% percent of its citizens can’t pay their bills every month. So that’s the business in front. For the moment, the party in the back is for the top 1 to 10% um, who have just realized enormous gains over the same time. So since the 19 seventies, the average worker compensation America has grown by about 9% in about 50 years, 9% on the average. Compensation for an executive has increased by 1000% over that same time, and these things are related. The growth of income for the top has come from stopping the income gains for those on the bottom. And it works out because 90% of people are the ones not getting those 5% pay raises anymore. If you take that for 90% of population instead, put that money in the pockets of the top 1%. It adds up very, very quickly. So this has been the explicit model for, um, for the brand of capitalism we’ve had over the last 40 or 50 years. And so now we have this enormous mullet, enormous moment of people on top, being extraordinarily wealthy and again a time of incredible prosperity. And most people are are not participating in it. And, um, yeah, it’s it’s, it’s it’s a It’s a colorful way. Do I think, to illustrate what is I mean when I really think about it? I mean, I feel almost ashamed. You know, I feel I feel a sense of like I can’t believe we’re doing this. I can’t believe that we are operating like this is this is okay, like this makes sense. This is not unique to the United States. I think it’s fair. I think it’s I think the U. S is by far way have a larger well, you know, I don’t even know your wealth. Divide them, rise more highest in the world. Yeah, that’s measured through something called the Jenny Coefficient, which is like the degree of difference between average and common. High incomes of the U. S. Is one of the biggest there. I mean, the difference between, say, the U. S. And like a European country is a European country has higher taxes on people who make more money on those higher taxes are used to provide health care and other basic services that we don’t have in the States. So they’re they’re balancing it out not by redistributing wealth, but by using that well to provide the basic necessities of life so that people don’t have to worry about those things. But so in the US, for the 43% of people who can’t afford their bills each month, the things they can’t afford are those same basic safety net. And so you know, So instead, everyone has to pay for those things out of pocket. Um, but they’re doing that while getting paid. You know, like pay has increased 9% and the cost of college is in three years in 50 and 50 years. And during that same time, the cost of college is increased by 19 x Right? Healthcare’s increased by way more than that. And so wages stay down the costs. Stay up. It’s especially this especially screws over college grads, because the cost of university keeps going up and up. But pay is not going into that tell you have almost 50% of student loans now. And for parents in the U. S. Like billions of dollars because people can’t pay, people can’t pay because the jobs don’t pay enough to pay back. You know what it costs to earn the right to get that job. And this is all the mullet, just playing itself out in all kinds of different ways. I want to share some of the encouragement that that you provide in the book, which is which is a good deal of it. Um you say, um treyz, which would I prefer more what we talked about. The fragility of things, how things can change will be on that, uh, you say a good idea. Well, crafted and pursued with passion doesn’t need a gatekeepers stamp of approval to succeed. Yeah, okay, that I believe that came from your kickstarter sort of kickstarter manifesto. And the day after day after we launched, I wrote a book I wrote a blogger posted about hoexter, but goes way beyond that. I mean, we can transcend financial maximization. We can, you know, we can encourage people toe, have their own grow their own ideas don’t need you don’t need a gatekeeper. Well, you’ll be part of part of what You know. I mean, I grew up in a, you know, rural community. I read books all the time, you know, loved school, and I just believe that, like, there was just some committee that was deciding everything on our behalf and one and felt comfort in that idea. And then when kickstarter happened as it was growing, I kept waiting for like, where? Where? Where? Those people that, like, give us approval for this to be happening. And it just dahna me that there’s nothing that, like what What we choose to believe in is like it there. There are no authority figures, and that initially really frightened me it frightens me to think that wow, just us three people can dramatically reorient. How things were working like that makes me terrifies is honestly my first reaction. And then that brought with it a new level of just a different way of seeing the world. And seeing things is being more fragile than I thought. And and the book is trying to put that same feeling and people this notion that a lot of what we are going along with it, it just keeps happening because we’re going along with it. And the day we stop things change like that. Our individual actions actually do have impact. And they have impact not just on now, but the evident backed also in the generation that follows. One of things I talk about in the book is there’s a a survey done by U. C. L. A. Every year since the 19 sixties in college freshman incoming freshmen, about like their goals in life and in 1970 the number one life goal for incoming college freshman in America was to develop a meaningful philosophy of life. 85% of students said that was essential. There’s one of the option that’s about being rich in that year was about 30% of students, that it was essential to be rich. Okay, this is 1917 1970 today, 2017. The last time this study was done, 82% of students said that being rich was essential. And so and it was like 40% say having a philosophy of life is a central. And in 1970 people were looking for their philosophy in life. In 2017 they know what it is. It’s to be rich and this change incrementally year by year. And that and that changed by people’s personal beliefs changing and those things just having these multiplying effects when they get played out across a society. She’s just yesterday on the subway, I was talking to a boy was like 10 years old, sitting next to me on he was he was obviously singing, and but they didn’t have any year budget. He was just sitting on his own, and my friend asked him, You know, what do you talking? What would you like to do and where you wanna be and how come you love singing? And he said, I want to be a big YouTube singer. Yeah, you know, it’s just he must be rich and have tens of millions of views on YouTube. He was, like, years old. Sure, Yeah. No, that’s That’s the world. That’s a word. That’s the world he’s born into. Yeah, right. You know, I mean, we’re all we’re all captives of this, so But I don’t I don’t think that we have to be stuck here. You know, I think the moment, the moment that we believe that this is unchangeable is like, is, uh, you know, that’s kind of what we come to believe part. Part of my inspiration for writing this book was not feeling like I was seeing the where the people trying to optimistically imagine the evolutionary path for our species from here, How can we keep growing and evolving in a way that sustains our way of life, sustains social connections, all these sorts of things and because I think our current path is not going to result in on dso you know, just trying to imagine what could what could be done? What? What is possible. And this has led me to be super optimistic. I mean, I write about how exercise is like a modern idea. We think of exercises. It’s like it’s been here forever. We all wish we could exercise more, right. But in 1968 the segregationist Senator Strom Thurman was arrested for running outside in South Carolina because someone jogging was so weird in the 19 sixties that someone be arrested. They assumed they were fleeing the scene of a crime, and that was how unusual exercise was and those of the 19 sixties. Right in 1992 America had its first exercising president. You know, not that Kennedy was like an athletic person, but it wasn’t exercise as a personal habit. Exercise had to be invented because television was invented. And so we are still actually early on in the life of exercise as a hobby, and it’s still something that’s growing. But we just quickly become so used to it. So I think that there is. I talk a lot about these 30 year increments of time that a generation, a 30 year, a 30 year stretch of time. I think anything is changeable. Anything is changeable. If you have a plan, just the laws of calm, pounding interest show us how a small idea just growing, how it can accelerate and how that last moment, where it tips over and takes over the world kapin so quickly, like hip hop, took 30 years to go from. Not existing, too dominating the world. It took 30 years to create the Internet. It took 30 years for the antiseptic method and safe surgery to happen. Like I write about many examples of these things you use, I gotta take a last break. But you use use. Have a great party analogy. Let me just take this 32nd break and I want you to share your party analogy. This break is four Turned to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your mission. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO, and we have got butt loads. More time for this could be our future. And Nancy Strickler tell that good, cool party analogy in terms of the 30 years Yeah, generation, I encourage us to think about society is a party that’s just keeps going. And, um, we every day new people enter the party by being born, and you start off by your sort of taught the ropes. You’re kind of a wallflower that’s like ages 0 to 30. You’re kind of learning how the party works from the ages of 30 to 60 you’re in charge of the party. You’re choosing what food gets served. Your it’s your music. You dominate the dance floor. And then, by the age of about 60 you go into another room. Thio. Quiet, quiet, little conversation. Let’s sit. Let’s sit here. And then after that, people disappear from the party. But the way the party keeps going is that there is a constant transition off who is leading it. Yeah, the way that people think about the party is determined by what it’s like when they first get there. What kind of music is playing when you get to the party that tells you what the party is like? And so society is this constantly evolving party. It never stops, were constantly handing off from one baton to the other generations, this sort of evolutionary process of society and, um and so this I think this metaphor also shows how it is. These things can change, like how the decisions that one group makes while being in charge of the dance floor on the sorts of rules they create, how that affects people just entering the party and how that adjust what everyone thinks. Normal ISS. And so, you know, to think about someone who’s born was raised after the iPhone exists, which is only 2008 like they have a very different notion of normal ass. Someone like me who was born in the 19 seventies, who saw I saw the phone enter the party like I experienced. That is a new thing, right? And so there’s this way that, yeah, that we’re just sort of were passengers on this ride and it’s happening around us. But we also have, ah, riel influence on it, that that’s kind of hard, hard to perceive. But this gradual process of how things work is actually a really wonderful thing. It lets it’s what let’s certain ways of life preserve and stay around, and and it illustrates how it is. The world evolves. Yeah, and, uh, yeah, it’s a metaphor, not analogy. Thank you subtly corrected. I do that sometimes. Um, so we have, like, a about another 10 minutes or so left. What? What haven’t we talked about Book waas, Um, that you’d like to? Well, I guess, you know, I guess it’s really a lot of what the book builds to is this is this idea. Ventoux is, um, and trying Thio, usher in this new way of seeing self interest a new way of perceiving our footprint. And, um and so I I see the first step of vandalism as being people. Just learning this individually on dhe getting into it and write your bento I got right your banjo. You’ve made one here. Did did. There’s gonna be there’s gonna be a website that will go up this week, ben tooism dot warg which will be a which will guide you through the process of building a bento Be a path of self coherence to finding your values to doing that. You just answer a question of what I want to need right now. What is future me want to need And so you sort of guide through this. I think this should also happen for organizations organizations should sort of affirm their commitments and who their constituents are and how they want to impact all the spaces where they operate. And then you the book ends with, like, this sort of SciFi future of 2020 50 a man, because the book is sort of built around this notion of where we should be in 25th already 57. I suppose we could accelerate to 2040. Yeah, yeah, we can see more change there might be linked to 100. That’s future made by the way and healthful Living 200 yet. But I think I think I think in, You know, I write about 2050 30 years from now, Ben Tooism being like a real thing, that companies expand their their scope of their self interest to include not just financial values but non financial values, and that there is an organization that I imagine is a non-profit called the Bento Society that is sort of giving grants and guiding the research into new, rational values. It is trying to solve this question of how do we define how do we define sustainability? And I think the way you do that is by trying to look inside the hood of his many organizations as possible to see how they’re answering these questions and trying to find through that. What are those sort of like universal? What is universal properties that we can identify? If we look at enough examples of this and through that, maybe we can define an equation that produces, like, a metric, you know, in the same way that safer the climate crisis, we have the metric of CO two parts per 1,000,000 the atmosphere is like the way to track things. But how can that be something that we’re all aware of and that all of our is incorporated into all of our decisions? And and so I see the the long range that the long term path adventurism is being justifying the research into new forms of value, creating a framework where these things make sense and and in that I believe evolving capitalism into something else, I think, almost like a post economic kind of model where, um, the money remains important. But we see money as a fuel towards the creation of hyre values. Money is not the point on its own like that, what we’re doing right now is we’re climbing like the second rung of the ladder of Maslow’s hierarchy were achieving security. And we’re celebrating like we’re on the peak of Everest and really were, like, barely climbing. We’re barely climbing and we think we’re there. So can we raise up? Can we raise our bar? Can we raise our sights and subsumed in In all this really is, I think of empowerment. Yeah, we are each capable of changing ourselves, being introspective, seeing a different path and taking that path and then institution you say, you know, incrementally, it becomes, becomes cluster of friends that becomes institutional. And then it’s communal. And it’s xero How nation, you know, that’s how organic food happened was exactly that same way, like they’re they’re adding that exam that is a model that is a that is a replicable model for change. And, you know, it just requires people to commit. It requires, you know, me making arguments that that reach people on that build this community. I mean, I my hope for this book is it’s like the It’s the first brick and a new kind of institutional way of thinking. You know, I there’s a follow-up book to this. I think more about Ben Tooism, but I feel like there are ways this idea needs to be conjugated and evolved that my brain is not equipped to do. But maybe listen to this podcast. Maybe they maybe they have a mind that can really take some of these ideas much farther than I could ever imagine. And you know what I’ve seen with kickstarter like that? Like real success is when things outgrow you and outrun you on dhe when other people are teaching you about the thing you made. And that’s already happening with Ben Tooism for me. Like I’ve done these workshops, there are now probably 60 practicing bento us in the world, right? And they and they write me and they write me with questions saying, Hey, I face this choice to my dentist said I should do it too, said I didn’t like, How would you encourage me to think through this? And he’s using it in their daily lives? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know, I try to provide some wisdom, you know, try to help them think of these things, but people are encountering things that I hadn’t considered, you know, on Dhe. So that is how that is, how ideas go from just ideas, like living, breathing things that operate independently of us. And that’s that’s what I hope, whether Ben Tooism is the literal word used, I care less about then these new spaces off future me now us future us that we can, that we can come to an agreement about the importance and rationality of those spaces and that those convey be put on the front burner rather than the back burner and that we can have really smart conversations with, like, you know, the the amount that human beings have achieved trying to grow like just through the pursuit of financial growth is incredible, like human beings are amazing. What weaken? D’oh! So what do we what can we d’oh with a different kind of target? And so that again just makes me feel so excited, so excited about our potential. And, um and you know, my feeling is that these ideas are like touching on a raw nerve that a lot of people feel and that I think a lot of people are open to some of my early readers of the book that I asked to give me feedback are like conservative economists and partners that on Wall Street and like friends who work in those worlds really financial maximize. Yeah, who I really respect. And I want them to read this and be like, Well, I disagree with you on X y Z things, but I you know, I think what you’re saying also has merit, you know? And I want I want to be credible to those people because like, those folks were super talented and need to be a part of the solution. You know, I don’t want to blame or shame anyone like we’re all on the same ride. And so, to me, it’s the ability to just expand that perspective. And, you know, again, I just have all kinds of optimism and faith about human beings, and and I really think will step up if given the chance. I see your glass is empty. Yeah, which is good with the bad. Bad with passion about homes. So let me because we’re gonna toast one more final time. I don’t know what you’re doing with an empty glass. Cheers, Years. Congratulations on the book comes out in two days. Yeah. Thank you. Congratulations. My pleasure. If someone wants to go a little further with the Bento is, um what should they do? But they should go Thio portals. They should goto either. Why? Strickler dot com They could send me a message. Or by the time this is up, ben tooism dot or ge should be a real functioning website. Okay, I’m quite excited about that. Walks you through the whole concept. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Especially for doing it on a Sunday afternoon. Yeah, is the answer Strickler? The book is This could be our future. A manifesto for a more generous world again. Why strickler dot com And at why, Strickler Next week it’s gonna be the buy-in bitches Carrie Lewis Carlton and Laura Koch getting your boss’s buy-in when you get it, and they don’t the buy-in bitches. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com Responsive by witness e p a. Is guiding you beyond the numbers record cps dot com koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits? Tony dahna may slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producer is clear. Myer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this music you better be hearing it by now in postproduction. Better be on by now. This music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. 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Nonprofit Radio for October 25, 2019: Adversaries Into Allies

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Leah Garcés: Adversaries Into Allies
It can be advantageous to work with people and causes on the other side. Leah Garcés shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book, “Grilled: Turning Adversaries into Allies to Change the Chicken Industry.” She’s also president of Mercy For Animals.

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into my as assists if you got under my skin with the idea that you missed today’s show. Adversaries in tow allies it can be quite advantageous to work with people and causes. On the other side, Leah Gar says, shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book Grilled. Turning Adversaries Into Allies to Change the chicken Industry. She’s also president of Mercy for Animals on Tony’s Take to I’m Looking for Innovators, We’re sponsored by Wagner C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com by koegler Mountains Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’m very pleased to welcome Lia, Gar says to the studio. She has been fighting for better food and farming systems for nearly 20 years as a leader in the animal protection movement. She oversaw international campaigns in 14 countries at the World Society for the Protection of Animals and launched compassion in world farming in the U. S. She’s been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, Buzzfeed, Vice and other media. She’s at Lia L E A. H Underscore compassion and the organs at Mercy for Animals and mercy for animals dot org’s Welcome to Studio. I’m so glad to be here. It’s a real thing. Thank you. Thanks for coming up from Georgia, where that’s where you started. The compassionate world forming. That’s right. Us. Right. And how many years ago was that? That was about eight or nine years ago now, Okay. And you’ve been president of mercy for animals little over a year, just over a year. Congratulations on your anniversary. Yeah, um, I love congratulations on the book. It’s just it’s just out, right? It came out September 3rd. Just write about that. Okay. So sick. Sweet little 16. Tried to get it. Still feels that it is Absolutely. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, you grew up in Florida. That’s right. And you had you had a lot of creatures. Beautiful animals around. You talk a little about growing up there with a canal in your backyard and and how that inspired your life work. Really? Yeah, I had the absolute great privilege of growing up in the swamps of Florida. Many people wouldn’t think that’s a privilege, but I D’oh, yeah, you’re on backed up to the book I’ve a state park and there was a ton of wildlife when I would look out of my glass sliding door. It was like almost like a prehistoric looking place. So there were ducks and alligators and otters and Herron’s and white ibis and alters that Florida has to offer. But to me, the ones that stole my heart with the ducks and my mother had these prized flower beds. He’s in patients that, when I was little, would come up to my chest, but no one was allowed to touch these flowers. Thes were like off limits. Don’t play there or you’re dead except the mother ducks. They were the only ones, and they would waddle up when they were ready to lay their eggs, and they would pat down and fix the and arrange the flowers into a nest like shape and lay their eggs and my brother, sister and I were able to watch this all unfold from inside of our screen and porch and we would lay on our bellies and right on the other side with all of this unfolding and eventually they would hatch and we would see everything. All of the dramas and the joys and the ups and downs of duck life, right? And this, really. I mean, in my mind, growing up, there was no difference between these ducks and the dogs and cats that share homes. They had the same joys and fears, and I didn’t think anything off them. Needing protection, I thought, Absolutely, they need protection. They deserve to have life worth a life worth living. And I extended that out. Two chickens to cows, two pigs. I became vegetarian when I was about 15 years old. After seeing a pita esque kind of documentary about meat where your meat comes from, I studied zoology. I just really wanted to help animals in particular. Farmed animals have a good life since you alluded to Ah video, the pita asked video that moved your inspiration. I was going to save it for later, but for listeners who eat meat. The Mercy for Animals website has I’m not even gonna say disturbing a good gut wrenching, gut wrenching videos on cows, pigs, fish, chicken turkeys. Um, it’s ah, yeah, they’re beyond disturbing. But you need to know, I think I think we all need to know what is going on in our, uh, in our food supply. Basically, yeah, I think one of the things that mercy for animals is most known for is our undercover investigations. So, unfortunately, unlike tomatoes or onions, you can’t see very readily where the animals that end up on our plate are being raised, and that’s kept behind closed doors on purpose. So for that reason, we have to send in undercover investigators to take footage of the normal day to day practices of factory farming. And as an organization, we’ve produced over 70 investigations and you can find them on our website and they really show unfortunately, very normal things that happen every day. But they’re horrible. They’re horrible, their gut wrenching. As you said, they’re very difficult to watch. But I think it’s important, and our job is to bear witness to that and to bring that darkness out into the light so that people can be aware and make choices the match, their values. So let’s let’s bring it to the chickens that are the the the story of the entire book on Dhe. I think, for for our purposes, there’s sort of a vehicle because we want to talk about engaging with your adversaries, and you have some great stories in the book. But let’s want you, Ah, we have, like, two minutes or so before our first break. Why don’t you set the stage for us about chicken forming? Yeah, So 90% of all farmed animals are the chickens raised for meat, so that’s a bit of a shocking figure that includes that. So there’s nine billion that air raised just in this country. That’s just meat chickens, excluding all other farmed animals, and the majority of those, like 99.8% or raised behind closed doors, they are stuffed wallet, a wall in a darkened warehouse. Ah, their litter is never changed. The error is ammonia laden dust laden, but the worst thing happening to these chickens is how fast they’re made to grow through selective breeding, so they grow incredibly fast, incredibly large. They’re slaughtered it only 40 days of age, though their babies still. But there they’re obese at this stage because of the preference for the large breast meat. And they’re kind of cages. Their genetics. They grow so big, so fast, they collapse under their own weight. Their heart and lungs can’t keep up with the metabolic demand for that fast growth, and they often have heart attacks and problems. So even if the birds go beyond this 40 days, most of them would die of a heart attack before a year of age. So it’s a very cruel and unnatural process and really constitutes one of the largest causes of suffering on the planet. You make the point that if humans grew as fast as the chickens are because of this breeding, we we’d be £600 by. I think age, too, is that it could be six if we grew at the same rate, correct £600 by age to correct. OK, so that’s our That’s the setting. That’s what Leah was out to change. And that’s what the book is all about. That change that change process. So when we come back we’ll dive in further. Let’s take this first break. Wagner, CPS. They’ve got a free wagon are on November 13th. Sexual harassment learned to identify it, which is interesting because that is not always black and white. What constitutes harassment in the workplace? Learn what the law requires you to do as an employer and tips for building a strong team that works together to prevent and identify workplace harassment. That Wagner cps dot com Click Resource is than upcoming events. Let’s go back Thio adversaries into allies. Um, the first you wanted to engage you needed to engage with the other side. And listen, you just gotta buy the damn book because, you know, we, as I always say, with authors, we cannot fill. We can’t tell the whole story. There it’s There are poignant stories that we may not get to. There’s great anecdotes. There’s funny moments. There’s very touching and tender moments. So you just get the book. We’ll you know we’ll do the best we can in an hour. Thank you. Absolutely. Craig Watts. Craig is Ah ah Farmer. We’re calling for a chicken, Right? Chicken farmers don’t make sure I’m doing right. Okay. Um, I want to do more than just a white. What? Why did he Why? Why was he willing to meet with you? That is a great question. Um, so let me back up a little and say that at the time I met Craig Watts, I was desperate. So I had been, as I just revealed, that said earlier had, you know, it’s very difficult to know what’s going on inside of a chicken factory farm. And I have been trying to get footage from inside of one. Yeah, let me just what states have done to prevent investigative reports like Mercy Franz. Instead of improving conditions for the chickens, they enact laws that prevent investigators and even employees from shooting video, whether it’s explicit or undercover, right? So they another method of hiding the Legislature’s. A lot of state legislatures are involved. Unfortunately, unfortunately, including in my state, North Carolina, I noticed you cite North Carolina’s one of states, so rather improve the the the production of the lives of of the Chickens. They just hide the hide, the facts. But yeah, that’s called AG gag and right. It’s an AG gag law, and North Carolina has one, and but it didn’t have one. When I started working there, I got one just after I worked there because Craig is from North Carolina. That’s right. And I had asked companies to give me tours. I had knocked on doors. Nobody would let me. So when a journalist introduced me to Craig Watts, I had to say Yes. I was scared out of my mind as a vegan animal rights activist to go meet with a chicken factory farmer in the poorest county of rural North Carolina. But I thought, I gotta go. So pack my bags with filmmaker named Reagan. Hodge, headed to Hiss Place about five hours from Atlanta, did not know what I was getting into. I remember telling my husband like, Here’s the address. Look for me buried in the chicken litter. If I don’t come back, I might be rotting away their compost fast. So be quick. And, uh, when I showed up, you know, he let me in the door, and then we went, and I spent the 1st 5 hours with the question You just asked me in my head as he was telling me his story, like, Why is he talking to me? why in the world, because in my mind and my paradigm, my framework, he was just an evil person that did this horrible thing to chickens. And up until that point in my career, I had been angry at him, blamed him. I even had wished people like him ill. I hope he lost his job. You know, I hoped he was unemployed, so I thought in my head this was some kind of ambush, you know? But I had to do it anyway, because I was desperate to get footage, and I kind of thought I was gonna go there, get footage and get the hell out of there and, like, never come back. But as I sat there listening to his story, that fear was totally replaced by feeling ashamed that I had never thought truly about him as a human being and why he would have made the choices that he would even wished him ill. Correct. And I mean, after he told me his story, I knew why he you know, he was desperate to. He wanted out and he was trapped. And to explain that Craig, when he was in his early twenties, he wanted to stay on the land in a poor county in North Carolina, and there were no other options at the time, so tobacco had fallen out. There’s no other jobs. So when the chicken industry came to town and said, If you take out 1/4 of a $1,000,000 loan, which will arrange for you, you could be your own business man, you can stay on the land that’s five generations has been passed down and you just have to raise chickens for us. We’ll drop them off and then we’ll pick them up at the end. And every time we do that, we’ll give you a paycheck. And at first it works really well. So he would raise the chickens and they would take them and then get a paycheck. And the payoff that quarter of a $1,000,000 like a mortgage but its factory farming. So after a while, the chicken started to get sick and they died. And you don’t get paid for dead. But you make the point that a ll the feet and all the time that went into those. But I guess primarily it’s feed that goes into the dead birds. That’s all some costs. That’s all lost cost for go and propane electricity like they’re heating the houses. They’re you know, they’re paying for the loan itself, that the structure is the loan. There’s a lot of bills. So the idea is, he just should have a little bit toe feed his family at the end. But it started to not look that way. And he got toe. He paid off his loan and then within, like, a year and 1/2 for two years, the producer he was produced. It was he was he with producer deal. He was insisted on upgrades to the house. They call them houses. That’s a euphemism. There were these gross. I don’t know. Warehouses. Yeah, they’re metals. They’re bigger than sheds. They’re huge. They’re like our thing. 100? Yeah, they’re like, the size of a football football. And then, like 40 yards wide, 40 feet, 40 feet wide, 40 feet. Thank you, anyway. So then Purdue insists on upgrades. So just take out another loan and he’s back where he had been for the 12 or 15 years paying off a new mortgage on the on the upgrades s never ending. Yeah, and that’s a. That’s a subtext to the in the book is the cycle that thief you chicken producers hold the way that they hold the farmers captive, their indentured servant analogous to the way the formers are holding the chickens captive. They are captain, nothing about the chickens. I just because they’re because they’re in their own feces and it’s there is a 30,000 of them in each again house each, each one of these large houses, and they can’t walk like you. Like you were saying. They flap their wings to try to move, but they for a lot of them it’s hard to get to the food or the water. And they’re they’re festering in this in this feces concrete floor, and they get these sores on their their bottoms, right and on their bellies, is it? And they end up with these open wounds source because they’re laying in feces for 40 isn’t 40 days, 40 days, 47 in the big. In the beginning, they will be smaller in there, more mobile. But as they get into the last half of that growth period, they find it very hard to move. And what happens is because they’re all squashed together for one of the moves. It’s like shift shift shift. I imagine you see this wave if you d’oh d’oh! And so it’s this constant kind of slight shifting happening in the flock. But what’s happening is there undersides are rubbing against, Ah, hot letter. Nowthe litter itself is composting all the time, so it won by night. It’s breaking down. That’s right, I’m posting. I put a thermometer into the literate one point. It was 87 degrees. So they’re sitting on hot litter, constantly rubbing. And so at one point I picked up one of the chickens, and this would be the photo that would end up in The New York Times, and I was picked it up. You could see her underbelly was red and raw, and it was like a bed sore, you know, and that’s where a lot of infection can come in. But it’s It was warm and mushy. It was terrific. That’s Ah, that’s Chapter five is when we find that out, it’s called crossing Enemy Lines. When you do a video, your first video and you say you’re you’re knocked over, your eyes are watering your coughing. You were concerned about pulmonary problems and didn’t take some antibiotics. Take a steroid to clear my lungs because I spent a lot of time filming and in the House is on and working with Reagan to film. And I already had had an infection of some kind, you know, just like your winter cough kind of thing. And it got horrific. We had a tank taking, turning off the camera and just say you were embarrassed about what you recall. It was horrible. And but then I kept thinking, First of all, this is the chickens entire life. That’s is the only thing they ever experienced in here. And I kept thinking back to my ducks like they’re they’re lovely life out in the, you know, in the river and the swamps. And and then, by comparison, these very similar animals are living in ammonia laden, dust laden hot, you know, environments that air just unsuitable for any Centeon being. So Craig wants you to see this on, and I think one of the it’s one of the things that comes through is, you know, howto build bridges to adversaries is is trust. He learns that he can trust you you. You just articulated how you were starting to trust him, and he feels comfortable opening up. But after many hours, it’s not like he brings you on and then says, Let’s let’s start filming But you talk to him for a long time. Well, really, it was over a couple of months, you’re e mailing and, well, even we filmed. But there was no, you know, we started filming. We came back a second time. We came back 1/3 4th just to learn and be side by side with him to understand what his job was like, what was his day to day like and learn from him what the real problems were of the chicken industry. And truly, it wasn’t until you know, a couple of months after meeting in person that we decided to release the film. And that was the big trust moment because there was so much risk involved with risk for him. Because, as we’ll see in the book, the producers have have their own policies. If if the state doesn’t have a law on ag gag law, the producers have their own policies, right? So in the case of Craig, the big risk for him was losing payment, you know, losing income. And he was also so if you lost, if they decided to cancel his contract, he had no way to pay off that giant mortgage. And then the other thing is his neighbors, you know, he was afraid of being isolated. Everyone around him is growing chickens. If he goes and outs the one source of income in his county, that’s scary. That’s a brave thing to Dio. And you were under some attack too. Oh, yeah, from you know, fellow activists, Why Why are you partnering? Why are you even talking to these people? They really thought I had kind of romanticized this idea of the struggling farmer. A lot of activists kind of thought I had really been drawn in by this idea, like romanticized the rural struggle. And I just I just had to put that to one side. And I knew what I knew from talking to this human being and really seeing firsthand and hearing firsthand his struggle. So trust I think trust is ah is ah, key takeaway for us and poignant that toward the end of the book. Jim Perdue who? Purdue Craig Craig’s, Greg’s producer, talked about trust, and he says that it’s what it’s what we’ll get adversarial parties through the rough spots. Basically, I’m paraphrasing. But Jim Perdue later in the book makes the point that the value of trust, which I felt with the two of you Craig early on in the book yeah, it’s all about trust in You know, Craig and I came out with a video and it had a 1,000,000 views in 24 hours. It was insane. We never expected some that kind of impact. And it was a roller coaster for six months after that, and and Purdue who we were exposing as not being honest with customers. They had a label that said Humanely raised right and we were saying, This is not what customers think of when they see those words. We expose that and I think the very good story of you in the book by what We can’t go into it. But you talking to the butcher in a grocery store, quizzing humanely raised. You know you’re not satisfied with your digging deeper. What humanely raised me. What does this mean? That was a launching point for you Get the book. Get the book. You’ll read the story. Thank you. That is a good story. Yeah, well, I’ll tell real quick that I kind of was it a Kroger with my kids shopping? And this is where I first spotted this label which started this whole provoc deliver story. Oh, bythe tell this one. Go ahead. You’re well, I just I was sitting there like looking at the meat manager like looking at the meat. You know, I’ll which I as a vegan is weird. My kids were looking at me like, What are you doing, Mom? But I was looking. I’m like, What is? This is pretty green Package. Looks like it’s you know what people want Organic e looking green around. You’ve seen it right? It’s on three earthy Look, I asked to meet manager, and he got so annoyed with my questions, he ended up dragging the box back from the back that I don’t know, just look at it. And that’s where I figured out that because it had a Purdue label want it, then that’s when I called customer service and ever, and that’s how I found, you know, knew what Craig was doing and you know, later weeks with the Jim Perdue connection. They stonewalled me for about a year they would not produce, would not have a conversation. They were very angry about what happened and very defensive in the in the initial stages. But then about a year later, after we came out with the video, I was reading The New York Times and there was an article about Purdue moving away from antibiotics and right at the very end there was a quote from Jim Perdue that said, We need happier birds and I was like, What is that? That has nothing to do with antibiotics. Why did he say that? I got very excited. I wrote to their PR person and I said, Look, can we try again? Like I read this, I can see you’re thinking about it and I see you’re looking into it. And to my surprise, they did answer that email. And this began a dialogue which led to speaking to the executives and writing the first animal care policy, addressing some of the very things I criticize them for not doing like putting some windows for natural light, giving the birds more space and in Richmond’s and things like that, and we continue tohave that dialogue, and they’ve made a lot of progress to their credit, you see, and you see that progress through the book? Um, another. Another important point I think about that you bring out about bridging making relationships with adversaries is you say you gotta walk a mile in his or her shoes. Let’s talk about that and how it relates to Ah, like you and Craig and Jim Perdue walk a mile in their shoes. Yeah, I think from when I started off. Like I said, I wished people like Craig Ill. And then when I sat down with him and began toe, really understand his hardships and the choices he made. This really changed the problem for me and then therefore changed the solutions that needed to be created in order to end factory farming. And one of those key things was basically job options in the farming community in rural areas like North Carolina and walking thinking of like walking a mile in their shoes. I started to change the way I was talking to him, and instead of thinking, how can I put Craig out of a business. I started to think, How can I create a new business opportunity for him? A new farming, you know, type of things. So we’re now mercy for animals is about to launch a new project precisely around that. Looking at how to transform farmers from being chicken farmers into, say, hemp farmers or which and CBD makes a lot more money than chicken, I can tell you so These are the kinds of things I started to change. Change, change the problem in my mind. So it changed the solutions, and I think that was really important. They’re too poignant moments that I thought related to both trust and walk a mile in their shoes. You were concerned about Craig’s soul as he’s day after day, spending 12 15 hours calling dead chickens. You have to listen. You have to read about how they do that through the through the warehouses and, um and what? That what? What? That process killing many a day. What that does to his soul. You were concerned about his soul, and then the other is when Jim Perdue asks about how your newly adopted daughter is doing, and I thought, you know that there. She’s concerned about Craig, the farmer. Who was she? A Bush Tilda. And Jim Perdue, of all people, is asking you, You know something personal and intimate about about your about your life, And I thought, That’s an example of trust and walk in their shoes and those connections air, you know, remind you there’s there’s a human being behind behind. There is a human being in front of you. And, you know, connecting with them takes some of the walls down that we we artificially create a lot of the times, and I think that’s really important. And there’s another and I’ll tell another story. I’m not to give them all away, but later your book. It’s your income stream. I’m doing the best I can. Well, uh, just for so your listeners know all the income goes thio compassionate world farming for the book. So if you want to help end this by the book and you can give it a CZ gifts to your friend holidays. So, um, so you know, one of the chicken producers we worked with later on I can’t name them because I don’t want to be named, but we went to visit them, and we were the first advocates to go talk to them is where Mike work-life and they invited us and is the first time. And as my co worker Rachel Dress Ken and I walked in the door, we could see people like peeking over the cubicles and whatnot, and we sat down. I pulled out my presentation. The guy was really negative. He had his arms folded and you could tell he was uncomfortable. And then after my laptop pulled up, my desktop picture came up and it was of my family. And he saw my daughter, who clearly looks different. She has coffee, color, skin and ringlets, and and he said, Is that your kid? And I said, Yeah, that’s my daughter just got back from adopting her and it’s been tough. And I was like babbling on an emotional and you know, And and he said, Oh, well, I have two adopted kids and, like from that moment on, the walls came down. We started talking about the ups and downs of raising kids, and it turned out his had a foster care that he did with his wife ministry and in those moments, the trust and the humanization of each other. And we were It was really built and were able to make so much more progress because of that. And we remain really able to talk despite the differences, which makes it possible to make so much more progress. I thought humanize, don’t demonize. That’s a great and then you so that you’re getting to another one that I was I was gonna get you But, um, finding common ground and that common ground is not necessarily related to the subject matter you’re talking about. In this case, it was adoption and foster care. You found common ground totally unrelated to the subject. You were you were convening over, right? We could say more about if you want me to take another break. Um, yes, 61%. 61% of Cougar Mountain Software’s customers stay with them for more than 16 years. That’s fabulous. Retention koegler Mountain software. It’s made for non-profits. It includes fraud prevention, fund accounting, Grant and Doner management. Phenomenal support, which you’ve heard testimonials about, and they have a free 60 day trial. You will find that on the listener landing page at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain last time for Tony’s Take two. I’m looking for innovators if you are approaching something unconventionally and succeeding at it, by the way, that that part’s important. Or maybe you know, a colleague or friend or client who works differently and is succeeding. I’m hosting an Innovator’s Siri’s early next year, first quarter of 2020 and I would like to talk to innovators, people doing something differently and succeeding at it. Leah would qualify, but her book came out earlier, So I very graciously I’ll, uh, say, uh, conceded Thio, meeting with talking to her earlier rather than making her wait until the first quarter of 2020. Um, so anybody similar? Get me Tony at tony martignetti dot com Or use the contact page on tony martignetti dot com and you don’t not do not have to have written a book Azaleas. But just doing something different and doing it well. And that is Tony. Stick to Let’s do the live listener love, which is abundant. Well, it’s abundant. Uh, let’s start abroad. MADRID, Spain Buenos Star Days Young son Korea comes, uh, sorry, sir Korea Annual haserot comes a ham Nida Saigon, Vietnam Berlin, Germany Guten tog Um Seoul, South Korea Khartoum, Sudan Thank you for being with us. Sudan. I don’t think you have before. That’s wonderful. Live love Out to Sudan, Singapore, Tijuana, Mexico Buena Star Days, Minsk in Belarus, Londrina, Brazil I may have pronounced it wrong, but I apologize. I apologize for that. But the live love goes out to Brazil. So glad you’re with us. Uncle A turkey. It’s remarkable. Uh, really. Woodbridge, Ontario in Canada and Munich, Germany. Guten tag to Ah, Munich as well and then bring it home. Tampa, Florida New York, New York. Multiple as always. Thank you. Thank you not to take New York for granted. New York City multiple listeners. Special live love after New York, New York. Thank you for that. Broomfield. Colorado is with us, and so is Rockville Center, New York. I have good friends. Rockville Centre. There’s a good steak house there, read by the train. What’s the name of that? Oh, that’s a bad subject. Sorry, Leah. Gar says that Steakhouse sucks. It’s right by the train station in Rockville Center, Fairfield, Connecticut. Miami, Florida, Little Falls, New Jersey. Wow. In New Jersey, live love out to New Jersey and, of course, all our live listeners. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. And we have to do, of course. And I have to send the podcast pleasantries because that’s where the vast majority of our our lives, our listeners aren’t. Despite this plethora of live listeners, still the vast majority podcast. That’s where the over 13,000 r and I thank you for being with us pleasantries to our podcast listeners. Thank you, Leah. That indulgence. Um, hide everyone everywhere. That’s amazing. That is, it could be it could very well be the subject. You could very well be. You could very well be the subject, but that’s a lot of live listeners. Oh, but I know some people in Tampa and Madrid, so maybe it’s, you know, perhaps, um, just get the book. If you get the bucket’s, you’ll have the same personal conversation. We just came out of the audio. So Bloomsbury just put the audio book out, too. Okay, that’s helpful. Okay. Are you there? Are you the reader? No. Okay, go. The Springsteen seems to be very popular among sustainers Now, you like it would take a long time. I’m trying to read it out loud to my nine year olds right now, and we’re only about halfway through. We read a couple pages tonight, but it takes a long time to read it out loud, I think. Um, So we were talking about Yeah, the common ground. You want to say anything more about common ground than, uh than I attempted? I think you did a good job. There’s a lot of stories in the book that, um, sort of layout how that’s possible to start this conversation’s and search for that common counting ground and how that really changes the atmosphere of that you’re trying to create solutions in and how important that is. Okay, Okay, um, another poignant story when, uh, Mike Weaver again find out who these characters are. He agrees to introduce you to another farmer named Eric Eric Hedrick, who was the He was the largest West Virginia grower. Eric was a grower for Pilgrim’s Pride, which I immediately thought should be Pilgrim. Shame Way should start a website immediately. All those campaigners out there by up pilgrim Shame shame dot should be dot or gore dot com Mike Weaver, where his motivations similar Thio introducing you to, uh, Eric similar to Craig’s. So I think everybody’s different but similar in that he was. He was very passionate about how unjust the system is for farmers. So he too, while he was better off financially than Craig. He had really taken it upon himself to be a farmer activist and really try to confront Pilgrim’s pride and get them to change their contract system and had failed, as as Craig Craig Craig had raised objections to Purdue. Yes, and fell on deaf ears. Correct? Yes. And in West Virginia, where these two farmers are still, there was a horrific disease, and this disease had caught called gangrenous dermatitis. Gangrenous dermatitis. Yes, where it’s basically like gangrene, where it’s a bacteria that eats the birds from the inside out very quickly at the end of their sort of the flock cycle, which is particularly city for the farmers because they’ve got all the feed and other resources invested, and so in near the end, like in Week six, they’re dying, and they don’t get paid for that, right? So that’s, you know, money out of their pocket. And it’s also a horrific way for the birds to go and this disease they had been trying to get rid of and there seemed to be no end to it. And pilgrims was not helping and not helping the farmers, right? They wouldn’t provide antibiotics that they won’t intervene. They wouldn’t intervene. So this was causing the particular farmer. You just mentioned Eric and his wife, Rachel, to head towards bankruptcy. And that was a horrific situation for them. I have three daughters and they didn’t know what they were going to dio. And he was very heavily invested. He had 12 houses, right? And didn’t Craig have what three or four had four. Mike had to. That’s more typical. Well, this guy Eric had Eric had 12. Yeah. Yeah, it was a big Grauer. 12 times 30,000 per house. Things like 360,000. Yes, chickens at a time. Exactly. And it was an overwhelming task for him so that when he told them, Look, I’ve got these birds, They’re dying. They’re Pilgrim’s. Pride’s answer was so hire more people to pick up the dead birds faster. So the companies response to we have, like a serious illness, is pick up the corpses faster, which was ridiculous, purely a commodity. Drank to the producers that things have changed. I guess there’s more humanity in it now. Somewhat, it’s getting its Pilgrim’s has done nothing xero. They’ve made no commitment. That’s why you want him. Shame. Credit you with the campaign afterwards. Pilgrim’s has not moved. Some have, and we’ll talk. We’ll get a chance to talk about other Other industries have changed restaurants, et cetera, foods to food outlets, etcetera. But at this time, there was no humanity in it at all was purely, ah, a tradable commodity. Right, right, right. Um, so you know, this is it’s It’s interesting that, you know, these farmers want just they they want to be heard. They want a voice and the companies that they’ve been appealing to A Z said, uh, death falling on deaf ears. But if they’re just people who want to be heard and some of them, I guess they’re more motivated by the concern for the for the birds and some it sounds like Eric more motivated by their own personal financial straits, that they’re that they’re tied, it constrained into. But in the end, they just all want a voice. Yeah, yeah, and I mean the thing with factory farming of chickens is it has such a detrimental impact on so many parts of our world. So whether you are concerned about human health and the disease that comes in and out onto our plate from these farms, or about workers, justice or we haven’t even discussed in my book doesn’t really go into the slaughterhouses and the injustice around the workers there, which are mostly Latino axe and often treated very poorly, especially the women. Or you’re concerned about the animals in the just inherent abuse in the system or the environments in the pollution that comes from it. There’s just so many negative parts, and that’s why I say it’s the biggest cause of suffering on the planet. It really touches on so much of our life. So whatever you care about you can you know, whatever is your passion, you’re centered thing. You confined that connection, and for me, that was This is a journey and discovering it’s not because for me I come from it primarily because I care about the animals. But in meeting these farmers, I started to really open my scope up. Understand this this is a much bigger issue, and there are more allies I could have We could march together against this and that would be so much more powerful. And that was one of my takeaway studio, uh, subsumed in everything we’re saying, If you can give your adversaries a voice, if they don’t have a voice, maybe you can support each other in creating that right? And you know, that’s that. I still in learning that lesson, I’m still finding those, um, were we joined, you know, two forces and become more powerful as a result to to get to the same end. You talk about giving the other side of a path to winning on. That reminded me of things I’ve heard in politics when you know which are back when things were more normal, way cared about foreign nations and the sensitive sense of sensitivities and sensibilities of foreign leaders. You know, I would hear in politics, you know, give them a path to success. But in the book, you say you give the other side of path to winning. But I again another takeaway for helping build bridges. Let’s talk about that. Yeah, and I mean, that applies to the farmers, but also applied to these companies that were trying to change where we’re saying, Can you move away from this horrific, unsustainable, cruel system into something else? And we really began to explore plant based alternatives, and you might think that’s insane to suggest, like chicken companies would produce, you know, soy based products or pea protein. But they are, And this was, sir changing this mentality of. We’re not trying to put Purdue out of business. We’re trying to help them evolve into a different business or Tyson evolve into a different business. And these That’s where we start to build this other path. When there we think there’s no way forward. You kind of really have to be creative and think, How can I help their business model involved into something else? And before you know you have Burger King selling impossible burgers all over the country, it’s happening. It’s happening. And that’s how we evolve into a different business. Um, we just have about two more minutes for before our final break Global Animal partnership. I thought that was an example of a path toward winning for our adversaries. Talk a little about yeah, global animal partnership is a certain animal welfare certification. You can look it up. So if you ever been in whole foods, you’ll see numbers on the meat one through five. So that is basically five is totally pasture raised, slaughtered on farm. And the animals are living the most natural life they could in a commercial setting. And one is better than industry, but and no cages, no crates and that kind of thing, but not outside. So you have this spectrum and where before we didn’t have this very clear. Ah, certification for the animals. This has evolved in the last 10 years or so as one of the very clear certifications where you can say, I know exactly where my meets coming from exactly how the animal was raised. And I can put my my kind of money to my values and decide which one through five I’m comfortable with and then look for them in the supermarket, a path toward a path toward winning. And that was a partnership with the worked with CEO of Whole Foods, right? John Mackey? Yes. All right, Let’s take our last break. Turn to communications PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories. So simple. But they know it. They the pros, all the while building support for the work that you do. They are into media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and brand strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to dot CEO. And thankfully, we’ve got butt loads more time for, ah, be a gar says and adversaries into allies. Oh, and fast. I feel like going fast. I’m glad it’s a good That’s a good sign. Is it? Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, for sure. Okay, Um, what do you do that start out? What do you want to talk about? I feel like I’m dominating, but I’m supposed to move things along because we do have an hour constraint. I wouldn’t want to talk about my book, so that’s great. We’re doing well. Wait. What do you want to talk about in the book? Think up something. What do you do? You love what? I love story or a story? A story or something? I don’t know. Uh, I guess you know, one of the things that really changed Another part that changed my career path is having kids and I think a lot of people can relate to this. And I hear a lot of advocates say this to our people. Work in the non-profits space. There’s a some point in your life when you you say, like, I really want to make a difference now and I really want to focus on on delivering my values into the world and for me that was when my first son was born. So I had been working in non-profit already, but had been working on all animals. And it was only after my son Ruben was born that I just sort of looked at him and I thought, Okay, like all my heart is in this one child and without a doubt in 18 years he’s gonna leave. So if when I’m working and I’m not with him, I have got to be ruthless with my time and my impact, and that really switched to really focus on farmed animals because farmed animals are the most impacted of any of the animals on our planet that we try to help. So way way overshadows dogs and cats, which is where the majority of our philanthropic dollar goes to. In the end, the United States Animal Welfare Act formed. Animals are excluded right so far, and there’s Animal Welfare Act. All farmed animals are excluded from that. Then we have the Humane Slaughter Methods Act, which excludes which is supposed to be that animals were rendered unconscious before the knife hits their throat. But all chickens are excluded and Fisher excluded. And that’s basically all the animals that we killed. You said 99 98% of the animals we kill our and not only that, but unfortunately that under the current administration they have made slaughter extremely unsafe and fast. So it used to be, if you can imagine this about 100 and it was permitted 125 birds per minute in the slaughter plants, and they just changed that for 100 and 75 birds a minute. That’s three a second. Can you even imagine that? Not only that, but they’ve removed the policing by the USDA fromthe slaughterhouses, and they’re allowing the companies to police themselves, self certified, basically, yeah, and that’s really there’s very clear evidence that results in more health safety issues and you know So for me, it’s just I cannot sort of I can’t emphasize enough how important the problem of helping farmed animal is and on, and it’s the main focus of my life. And you were talking about your son, your son, your first son’s birth. Yeah, that really his birth kind of was Ah ha moment. A lightbulb moment was like, You know, time’s a wasting like I have to focus and if I’m away from him, it better before good reason. And that really helped me to focus something you say that that I thought was a very empathic moment. It’s Earth’s early on. I’m quoting you, Anyone can end up on the wrong path despite the best of intentions that has you tell it in your duck story. Don’t tell that one relates to the relief to the docks. He she she helps the ducks. Leave it at that. You got to get the book to read the story, but But I thought that was very empathic, that I mean that related to all the farmers that that worked with you. They had good intentions. Craig wanted Toa send his kids to college and make a find a living to do that and stay on his his five generation A family land in southern North Carolina. Great intentions, but can end up on the wrong path. That was very empathic statement. Thank you for picking up on that, That I wasn’t sure if everybody would. It was a small sentence in there, but it was meant to be very symbolic because that is the limbs we have to go in. And, you know, uh, the part you know about someone’s life is like is, you know, the a tiny fraction of what their whole life is, And you have to go in realizing there’s so much more to this person in their story, and you won’t have any clue what it is. And so you can. They could have started off this journey thinking the things you said like they want to pay for college. You want to stay on the land, they want to pay their employees, They wanna, you know, by a you know, college fund, or help a charity or do a ministry for foster care. Who knows? But it could have been unintentional bad consequences, And that happens a lot in our world, and it’s about help. It’s not about blaming, shaming and pushing people into a corner when they made those choices, but really trying to find the pathway out for them that that it leave the door open for them to get out of there. That’s beautiful. Segue, because I was thinking next again, building bridges to adversaries. Um, I don’t know if it’s Jim Produce says that. Or, you know, I think you say this. No, no change can be achieved without the opponent’s engagement on I think it comes to the context of your working with working with Jim Perdue, but that, you know, that’s for the for the extreme extremist activist who will never talk to the other side. You realize now you’ve come to light that that’s an enormous mistake, right? And in my case, I’m not in charge of a single chicken. I have no access, so the only way I can access the animals I’m trying to help is through either the farmer of the company. So I have to enter their space. I have to understand their problems, their dilemmas, and try to build solutions from that space, which is very uncomfortable and it’s messy and it’s difficult, but you have to. We don’t really make progress by only talking to people who agree with us. That’s not the place. You make product enormously important. And you’re right. You don’t You don’t control a single chicken. Yeah, um, very impact that. You mean the whole book is really starting with the ducks in the backyard? Very. It’s a very empathic story, I think. Um, who else was, uh Well, it’s where and ask you about some people. Jim Perdue. How did how did he eventually come around? Well, you know, the first time I met him, I don’t know. I was gonna meet. Okay? You had said he had quote. We need happier chickens. You engaged with him? Would you engage with the company? And he responded. That’s right. I’m sorry. Yeah, we talked about that. Um, but then you end up doing panels with him sitting next to him being interviewed. Yes. What was that like? Terrifying. You talk about being backstage with him, but he says he trusts you. He looks you in the eye and says, I trust you. But first he said, I feel like a lamb being led to slaughter. Many said, Trust you. So it was the humane. I guess he was hoping I wouldn’t slaughter him. It would be a humane slaughter. He would be unconference. State, I guess. Yeah, it was terrifying. And he and his wife, Jan, came over to London to speak at a conference called the Extinction Conference, held by Compassionate World Farming. Looking at the connection of factory farming with causing so many species to go extinct and the impact on our planet. And he came to speak and talk about working with each other and how difficult that was. And we were interviewed by Maren McKenna, who is a great journalist. She wrote the book called My Gosh Big Chicken and and it was terrifying. But again, you know, he was very honest, and I think both of us. I have lost some friends and becoming friends in the process. But we both can’t resist the pathway to of forging this better way, and I I think eventually others will follow this way, and the dominoes have started to fall. I think you have a chapter, a section called the Dominant of Falling Down or something related to over 200 companies have agreed to a new policy on on chickens that are raised for meat. And these air across their producers, their food service companies, groceries, restaurants like Chipotle Panera. No groceries yet sadly. But we have groceries. No groceries. We had hope. Who’s also holds duitz, of course. Sorry. Whole fits. I forgot. I was thinking, like, giant ones like Wal Mart, which I still were still working on, but, um, find common ground. Trust them. Give them a path toward winning. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so subway and Burger King, for example, have agreed Thio ah, to change their some of their conditions. So including giving the birds more space. A better breed that causes less suffering, better slaughter conditions that render the animals unconscious before they’re shackled. So lots of these progress is being made. And Purdue did lead the way by creating um by saying they would provide the chickens at this hyre welfare certification. Not sort of occasion, but standard. And that’s, you know, I think, um, proof that sometimes you have to step out in front and you have to do these uncomfortable, messy and difficult things and conversations, but others will follow. If you could be brave enough to do that, I read the book. The evidence is abundant that that’s that’s the case. Let’s just have a few minutes before we wrap up. Let’s talk a little bit. So where you mentioned your Burger King? I’m seeing a lot of press, including investment. Investment advice around Impossible Burger. What’s the other one Beyond? Beyond Beyond Burger, Right Beyond Beyond Beyond Meet Impossible Burger and and you wrap up with well near wrap up with regenerative organics. So so organic alone on chicken Is not organic is not synonymous with humanely raised the way we’re talking about. It’s not synonymous with pastor raises. It’s Ray’s. Tow the food right, the right thing. That means the feed has been raised without pesticide. You have to see you realize you have to see pasture raised or the guest of five on the gap or look for plant based alternatives. And I think that’s a really what’s really important. Growing trends like, for example, where I live in Atlanta, we have this crazy thing happened a month ago, which was the K f C trialled beyond chicken nuggets in Atlanta and it was insane. So it was one day trial in Atlanta and I went at 10 o’clock. We did some filming, and when I got there at 10 o’clock, there was traffic stopped in all directions. They had painted the KFC green. This is KFC. Mind you, KFC, Right? And there was you Thought they were giving out, like Beyonce tickets for free, inside or something. It was really insane. And they sold out in five hours. They said they were supposed to have two weeks worth of beyond chicken. So I think two weeks correct gave it away and 1/2 a day. They give it away that were coming to buy it, and it was five hours. And it just shows this, like, insane demand for plant based alternatives. Because people are like, I don’t I don’t want to eat this much meat. I don’t want to eat this meat. I don’t know where it comes from, but it comes from a plant. I can trust that. So there’s a real swing of these companies like KFC. On the way here I saw Duncan Donuts commercial showing beyond sausage in their breakfast patties. Now, so there’s a real trend in my book talks about that in the last chapter towards that plant based alternatives. And we just have a minute left. Regenerative organics. We can eat meat that is not raised for slaughter. You got a minute? Oh, that’s called. That’s not regenerative representative organ. That’s labbate based meat. So So. Labbate bases. Where is that what you’re talking about? Okay, labbate, get the book. Just going about regenerative Organic. Don’t listen to the chapter on regenerate but faster on lab, where you take a single cell from a feller, you grow it in a brewery kind of thing, and then you grow the burger that way, and this is really happening. And I tried duck of all things that that really brings it back to the beginning. And I thought, This is the future. And there’s more people that have been on, you know, been up in space that have tried clean meat as it’s called at this stage. But I felt so lucky, and I really felt I was peering into the future of a place where no animal has ever slaughtered. And no, no animal ever suffers in order to produce army awesome that doesn’t bring it full circle. She’s Leah, Gar says J R. C E. With an accent s, you’ll find her at Lia. Underscore compassion. The organization is at mercy for animals and mercy for animals dot or GE, lugthart says. Thank you so much for sharing. You Get the book, for God’s sake. Responsible. Oh no. Next week. Kickstarter Yes, Next week we have KICKSTARTER cofounder Yancey Strickler with his new book, This Could Be Our Future is his manifesto. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers wetness cps dot com by Coca Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Leibowitz is here is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Steiner. Brooklyn’s Thank you for that information. Scotty, be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day. Mmm. 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Nonprofit Radio for October 18, 2019: Scale Up & Sustain

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Kathleen Kelly Janus: Scale Up & Sustain
It’s a question I hear often from nonprofit leaders: “How does my organization get to the next level?” Kathleen Kelly Janus’s research leads her to the answers and she shares them with you. Her book is “Social Startup Success.” (Originally aired 12/8/17)

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Wall I if I saw that you missed today’s show Scale Up and sustain. It’s a question I hear often from non-profit leaders. How does my organization get to the next level? Kathleen Kelly. Janice’s research leads her to the answers, and she shares them with you. Her book is Social startup Success that originally aired on December 8th 2017 on Tony’s take to share Share. That’s fair, Responsive by Wagner C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software Denali, fundez They’re Complete accounting Solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here’s scale up and sustain. I’m very glad to welcome Kathleen Kelly Janice to the show. She is a social entrepreneur, author and lecturer at Stanford University. Her work in philanthropy, millennial millennial engagement and scaling Early stage organizations has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Huffington Post, Stanford Social Innovation Review, non-profit radio Is there TechCrunch and The San Francisco Chronicle I’ve been in the Wall Street Journal, too. So you know, she’s the co founder of Spark. I haven’t cofounded anything. That’s the largest network of millennial donors in the world. Her new book is Social Startup Success. How the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference. She’s at K k. Janice. And I’m very glad and pleased. Thrilled that Kathleen’s book brings her to non-profit Radio Welcome, Kathleen Kelly. Janice, Thank you so much for having me, Tony. It’s my place. My real pleasure. I am. I am anxious to talk to you about this book. As anxious as I was to read it because I do always get that question. How do we get to the next level? And, um, I believe you have Ah, I believe you have the answer. Answers answers. I believe you can point us in the right direction. I hope so. Okay. Okay. I wanna, um I’m gonna start with reading something. I’m actually gonna start with the conclusion of your book. Thats paragraph just struck me. So, um, it says the journey and we’re gonna talk about your journey has made me even more keenly aware of how many non-profits are operating on a month to month basis, scrambling to raise money to sustain them. While so much innovation has occurred in the nonprofit world in recent decades, my conversations with organizational leaders and my observations of their daily routines have impressed upon me how considerable the challenges any non-profit faces are, no matter how innovative it’s model or impactful its services. What’s going on out there? Kathleen Kelly Johnson. Janice Well, I think you you really summed it up nicely there. Those are your words, not mine. I just You summed it up. I just I’m a copycat. What what’s happening is that we’re on the one hand, living in a philanthropic renaissance. It’s a really exciting time for non-profit innovation. So many in-kind credible ideas are happening, and I’ve really had a front row seat here in the Silicon Valley, watching so many non-profits capitalizing on Ah, lot of the growth that we’ve seen in the tech industry as well. Organizations like Key by using crowdfunding Thio be able to support organizations in the developing world. And then, on the other hand, we have so many incredible ideas that are dying on the vine because organizations can’t get the financial support that they need to get to the next level to get to a level of sustainability. And I became really interested in the question myself. I was really, really curious. Why are some organizations succeeding and wire others really flailing? And it turns out that in fact, 2/3 of non-profits in the United States air $500,000 in below revenue. And many of these organizations should stay small community based organizations and are feeling an important role in the non-profit community. But many of these organizations want to scale. They figured out a proven model that is working to support their beneficiaries. Thio help create a more just world, and they simply can’t get the capital they need to grow. And so my research really explores the foundations of success. What is it that organizations need to do in order to take that next step in to grow their impact to the next level? Yeah, you talk about the struggle to scale, which is essentially what you just said even more eloquently. Um, see. So let’s, um we’re not gonna have time to go through the the entire book. You know, you’ve got five elements of what you think. It takes toe scale and be sustainable. Um, so I’m just gonna start with encouraging people. You just, you know, if you want to get to the next level, you just got a by the book. I mean, that non-profit radio is good as it is. Cannot substitute for this for this book, so all right, I may mention that a couple times. So why don’t you walk us through the five parts of what you believe? You know, your research has, um, lead youto t believe you are the essential parts of what, What’s needed? Sure. So there’s five strategies that I identify that came up over and over again in the 100 interviews that I did around the country of organizations that have scaled past $2 million and beyond. And and that’s really the level that I define as a certain level of sustainability. Um and so the organizations that tend to scale really all exhibited thes five strategies. So the 1st 1 is that They began testing their ideas very early on and before they went out and raised money. They figured out some ways to pilot the program so that they could figure out what was working at what was not so. But by the time they went out to market, they they had some impact to show. When we’re able to get funded for that and and B, we’re able to then integrate a culture of innovation that helped them constantly improve their models as they grow. The second strategy is that these organizations that the organizations that tended to scale more quickly in a large survey that I did the survey results show that these organizations, we’re able to say that they began measuring impact from the very start from Day one, and that’s not make sense because those are the organizations that were able to go out, and Thio show donors that they were having an impact and, um but those are also the organizations that are able to increase their impact by letting go programs that aren’t working or tweaking them and making them better, so that impact measurement is really key and it’s often something that organizations struggle with the third strategy is funding experimentation and developing a plan to test both earned income sources as well as philanthropic income, to figure out a funding model that works, Um, and Thio to be able to take the organization to scale. There is no one size fits all sending model for nonprofit organizations. Every organization has to figure out what’s gonna work for them. And so putting some processes in place to test out different sources of income is gonna be the best way for organizations to figure out what that is. The fourth strategy is developing a culture of collective leadership. I think we all have this tendency in in today’s society thio to revere the founder to put founders on the pedestal, whether it’s in the for-profit world. Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook or associating Apple with Steve Jobs or even in the nonprofit world. And you know, the quintessential um example, is Mohammed Yunus is the is the founder of the Grameen Bank and won the Nobel Prize, and leaders should be honored. But at the same time, they’re the best organizations figure out that greatness is not built on one person. It’s built on the backs of teamwork and the best organizations figure out how to bring in senior leadership early on so that founders can go out and spend time on fund-raising and strategy that they have really strong, um, boards of directors that help help them grow their organization. And they flipped that hierarchical pyramid on its head and put the staff up front because they realized that their staff are the ones that are on the front lines. Making an impact and have the closest connections, often to the beneficiaries, is really the key to their work. The final strategy is storytelling with purpose. I think we all have a tendency to listen Thio a Ted talk or ah, great political speech and think, Wow, that person is just a natural. But when I went out and talked with all of these leaders, the best storytellers spend a lot of time practicing their craft. I had one social entrepreneur tell me that her she she’s an Olympic athlete, and her Olympic sport is storytelling and speech making and because she could be speaking the word of God. But if it’s told in a boring way, then no one’s gonna listen to her and these leaders figure out that that organizations can have impact when they’re able to build a movement, and that comes with telling a good story and getting people on board. And it’s not just at the leadership level, is at every level of the organization, because these organizations realize that staff members, board members, beneficiaries and champions can all be brand ambassadors for their organizations. And so they work hard. Thio help them with their storytelling so that everybody can go out and be champions for the cause of the five strategies. And to me, what was most exciting about this research is that I kept waiting for someone to say, You know, it’s just charisma or grid. You are some sort of innate trait that makes an organization succeed or not, but no one said that on. In fact, it really came down Thio thes strategies that any non-profit can implement no matter what kind of resources they have at their fingertips. Kathleen Kathleen Way, It’s time for a break. I wanted to do the overview. Hang with me while, uh, what we take a break. It’s time for a break. Wagner. CPS. Does your accountant return your calls and emails that they keep up to their deadlines. Do you like them? You get along with them. Are the keeping mistakes to a minimum? If these aren’t all yeses, then maybe it’s time to look for a replacement. And, you know, a partner at an accounting firm. You know, partner Wagner, CPS. He’s eat duitz tomb. He’s been on the show a couple times. Check out wagon cps dot com. Then talk to you. Eat, See if they can help you out. Wagner cps dot com Now let’s go back to scale up and sustain. I want to do some of our live Listen, love. Okay, Kathleen, you are there, right? Yes, Absolutely. Okay. Wonderful. I feel like doing the live. Listen, I love a little early, so let’s shout out to Tampa, Florida. Would Ridge, New Jersey Woodbridge so consistent with the listening? I don’t believe it. Would you please identify yourself? Woodbridge, New Jersey. Please come forward. I want to shout you out in person. Um, New York, New York. Multiple New York, New York. We’ve got, uh, Charlotte, North Carolina live listener love by going after Charlotte and Jersey City, New Jersey. My, my uh, my dad’s my dad’s hometown. That’s where he was born on McAdoo F. Jersey City, New Jersey. Live listeners love to you. College station. Texas is with us. So our, uh Germany Boudin tog Seoul, South Korea on your haserot. Come. Zoho Mita, Mexico City. Yes. Mexico City, Mexico. We got multiple there. Good afternoon. Born a swat? Bona Bona Santa. That’s it. It’s Italy. When a start is is it leave with us born Asada. If you are, Tehran is with us and took a result. Japan and the United Kingdom live list here. Love to each of you. We’re gonna divide it up today. The other 2/3 are gonna come. Ah, a little later on. All right, Kathleen. Now you don’t You don’t like to go by, uh, Katie or Kate or Cather. Kay, You’re strictly a Kathleen girl. Is that right? My name Kathleen. Okay. No, Katie’s. Okay. Okay. Um, let’s talk about your journeys. I mentioned in when I read a little bit from the conclusion you’re parents were very active and promoted a spirit of giving when you were young. This is That seems to be the genesis of your interest in this hole in the whole sector. It was definitely an inspiration for me. I’m really lucky that I grew up in this amazing little small town in Napa, California and my parents were very involved in the non-profit Ah, sector. My dad was a community banker and my mom was a teacher, and they they served on dozens of non-profit boards throughout the year. So when I think about our weekends, we often spent time volunteering in soup kitchens or serving at the local medical clinic for low income workers. But our volunteer efforts didn’t end there. We we sat around the dinner table and talked about how organizations often struggle. So my parents were talking about fundraisers they were hosting. Thio. Try and help support an organization that was struggling to get the resource. Is that needed to do that important service work that were involved in this was actually this was dinner table conversation for you. Yeah, that’s you know that that’s that’s Ah, that’s not common, right? E didn’t know any different. I know, I know. Yeah, but you know, it’s not it’s not. I mean, I know you’ve realized that since then, but, uh, that’s a remarkable Okay, I’m sorry. It’s just That’s just remarkable as I was reading about you having these conversations with your parents about sustainability, even though that word we weren’t using that word. But that’s what you were talking about. Well, yeah, and it’s not that my family was very sophisticated. It’s just that they believed really strongly that there are people in our community who are not as fortunate as us and that it’s our duty to give back to those people, but that it’s not just about giving back Thio people who are less fortunate. It’s about making sure that the organizations that are supporting them are strong so that they can provide those important social services. That something that was very much a part of my upbringing. Yeah, that’s outstanding. Um, and let’s now come to the research that led you to the ah to the overview that you gave us earlier. What was Thea was the process for this? Lots of interviews. Yeah, So I really came at it because I had experienced this issue myself personally. When I graduated from law school, I I started my own small non-profit with a group of women in San Francisco called Spark. We engage young professionals and gender equality issues, and we also had this problem where we had a ton of buzz. In the beginning, we were growing our revenue every few months, doubling our annual budget. And then at a certain point, just when we were hitting our stride, we hit a wall and we couldn’t get the capital that we needed in the door, get to the next level and increase the impact that we wanted. So that was around the half a $1,000,000 mark, wasn’t it? Half a $1,000,000 for us, and for every for every non-profit it it could be different. But I have found that that half $1,000,000 mark is a really a critical state hump because it is a place that a lot of organizations struggled to get beyond that kind of like initial grant funding and initial seed capital to really get some more sustainable grants in the door. So to get back to your question about the process for me, and when I began teaching social entrepreneurship at Stanford wearing my research cap, I began looking at this question more critically. I developed a survey and sent it out Thio Ah, 1000 organizations in the United States that were in some of the top. There’s entrepreneurship portfolios like going green and a show CA in school. And so I heard back from them and I tested everything from, you know, with their social media better and helping them scale, or was it there impact measurement in the way that they were measuring impact? And I came up with some initial findings that I went out and tested and I got to go out and interview in person. Ah, 100 organization founders there they’re funders, their beneficiaries, their staff and really just asked them a key question, which is what is the secret to non-profit success? And the findings are based on the stories that they told me in those interviews. The, um the the parts that I wanna start to focus on, um, is that that early stage you call it testing testing ideas? Um, I I think of it as sort of, you know, mastering as much as you can. The the problem. Like trying to get your mind around what the problem is and testing solutions to it. Um, I Is it okay if I describe it that way. Absolutely. What I found in my research is that the best social entrepreneurs fall in love with the problem, not the solution. Well, it is a lot harder once you fall in love with that solution. Thio let it go even if it’s not working. But if we really focus on the problem, then you’re gonna be able Thio, figure out the best strategy to address the problem. You talk about ideation and and brainstorming and not allowing any solutions to be censored at at the early stages. Yeah, and that’s you know that is that this human-centered design theory that has come up but Stanford at the D school or in various capacities? It’s really just a fancy way of talking about problem solving and a process for understanding how to brainstorm ideas. Um, and it doesn’t really have to be fancy. I owe you an example. An organization that I interviewed It was wishbone, which is Ah crowdfunding site for low income kids who want thio have summer experiences in the arts are in Fillmore in cooking to help them following their follow their dreams. And when the organization started, they didn’t start by launching this huge website in this platform and investing a lot of money and then, you know, then find the kids they did it the other way around. They did a really low cost test to figure out whether the model would work. So, uh, the founder was a teacher for low income students in Los Angeles at the time. She assigned an essay to them and ask them to write about their passion. Then she took some of her favorite papers and she photocopied them. And she stuck them in a male in the mail with a stamp and sent them to her relatives and her friends to say, Would you fund these kids to be able to follow their passions in the summer? And she got a bunch of money from those people and she was able to send them to summer camps and to do internships and realized that there was really something there, and it was really just this kind of low cost testing in the beginning that helped her figure out what worked and what didn’t and helped her develop an engine that she could then grow to scale. And it is hard to to throw off solutions. I mean, you know, remove solutions, eliminate them. You know you feel like you’ve got some, um, resource is devoted to it, but the outcomes air just not coming, it’s It’s hard to throw off, throw them off, though, and start a family. A lot of work to overcome that a lot of organizations get stuck in that cycle for two reasons. One is because it’s really hard. Thio admit failure. So I think that’s a big problem in the sector is just getting more comfortable with failure? But because oftentimes these these programs are doing important work, and it’s not that they’re necessarily bad. Maybe not the most impactful they be. I’ll tell you a story of one really successful example of this an organization called Last Mile Health founded in Liberia Toe help Get health care for some of the poorest communities there to decrease their mortality rates had when it started 13 different programs everything from women’s health programs, Thio AIDS programs, helping patients with HIV AIDS and as they started to grow, they realized that the program that was having the biggest impact was this program that was helping bring community based care to the rural areas of Liberia. So there were no doctors there. There were people who had to walk, sometimes 12 13 hours to get to the capital city on, and they had very few doctors serving millions of people. And so these community health care workers were able to give them the treatment that they needed, sometimes using cell phone service, t get care remotely. And, as it turned out, because it was so successful, they decided they made the very hard decision of closing down all these other programs that were very good programs but just weren’t having that kind of level of impact they wanted to see. And when the Ebola crisis hit in 2012 that was absolutely critical because they had focused their efforts on these community health care workers. Those community health care workers were able to prevent a global health crisis, so I can’t think of a better story. You know that they really because they were able to focus their energy on a program that was working, they were ableto have massive impact and so I think we all have to keep that kind of end goal in mind when we’re when we’re doing this, that it’s really about maximizing the potential of the impact that we can have. And let’s talk about measuring that impact. Um, let’s start with the distinction between your outputs and your outcomes or your impact. Well, what I found is that a lot of organizations tend to focus on the outcome on the on the output those air, the Vanity Mac tricks that are very easy. Thio T. C. So, for example, how many people are participating in your programs, or how many people are coming to your website to get social services? But ultimately, it’s not showing how the programs are having change on their life, their long term outcomes. It might even be something physical, like how many, uh, backpack kits we put together for homeless outreach? Yeah, I think. Then what is the home of the people do with them? And how did that change their lives? Right and does not change their lives so that you get out of homeless. Does it really the ultimate goal? Um, and so this is something that I think a lot of organizations struggle with, because non-profit leaders are not data scientists, and sometimes it can be overwhelming to think about, Like, how do you measure outcomes? How do you measure the ripple effect of providing that backpack to a homeless youth and what that does to get him in the door to a shelter that does that, help him ultimately get a job, Um, and and ultimately, get him off the streets. That’s a really hard path to follow. But you don’t have to be a data scientist, and it doesn’t have to be so hard. And in the book, I give a lot of really tangible strategies that non-profit organizations can use the help figure out what are the long term outcomes and get past these vanity metrics that just make us feel good about our impact but aren’t really telling us whether we’re making progress toward the ultimate goal. Kathleen, we just have about a minute or so before next break. Um, talk a little about the ah, using this data to help you tell your story. Yeah, that was something that I saw over and over again. Is we have a situation where 75% of non-profits collect data, but only 6% of them feel like they really know what to do with that data on the best non-profits. Figure out how to get it into bite size chunks of information that someone can easily digest in just a few minutes. And that could be whether you’re a small organization or whether you’re a huge organization. It really just comes down to those bite-sized pieces of information. Indulge me while we take another break. You need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software designed from the bottom up for non-profits. Simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your own accounting software? QuickBooks. Quicken Turbo Cash Workday zoho Patriot No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think that was That may have been one too many nose, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you cannot. Cougar Mountain has a free 60 day trial made for non-profits. You’ll find that on the listener landing page at tony dot m. A slash Cougar Mountain. Now time for Tony’s Take two. How about a little, as we learned as children, you know, share, share? That’s fair. How about sharing non-profit radio? Do you know someone who do you know? Let’s let’s let’s be in the affirmative. Who do you know that order. Be listening to non-profit radio. Someone who works for another non-profit works for your own non-profit eyes on a board, someone who’s a boardmember board members, great listeners to get a lot of good feedback from board members. Um, you know how good this show is. You’ve been listening your subscriber or you’re just sampling. Either way, you’re getting value from it. Share the value share share. That’s fair. That’s what I learned in third grade. When I was never shared that I wouldn’t share anything a little trouble game, You know where you popped the thing in the middle and then you move. The wooden used to be long ago. You move the wooden pegs along yet to get into the center. I never would share. I would just play all four or four parts for myself, but that’s that’s in the past. Now we know that sharing is good, So who can you share non-profit radio with? Please do. Let’s let’s expand the flock. Bring more into the family and I thank you very much for sharing non-profit radio. Let’s go back to Kathleen Kelly, Janice and scale up and sustain. Let’s let’s continue with the podcast Pleasantries. He was surprised. I divided it up. We say, on the heels of the live Listen, love has to come. The podcast pleasantries. Well, the heels a little longer this time. It’s a stiletto this time, Um, podcast. Pleasant feast are over 12,000. Listening in the time shift. The vast majority of our audience is there. And I’m thank you’il thankful that you are with us. Pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our AM and FM affiliate station listeners throughout the country. Thank you so much for being with us. I’m grateful that your station includes us in their weekly schedule. And I’m glad that you are listening on the, um on the terrestrial on the terrestrial side, the AM and FM affections to the affiliate listeners. Thank you very much. Kathleen Kelly. Janice. Thank you. You’re welcome. You’re still there, right? Yes, I’m here. Okay. Cool. Um, I noticed you, uh, is going back to your parents. You You dedicated the book to your parents and you say, for my parents who taught me the value of citizenship how do you define that citizenship? What do you think of as a citizenship. Well, for me, I’ve been raised with this idea that we all have a duty to give back to making the world a better place. And so we all have the capacity to make impact in some way. And to me, that’s really exciting. And I think getting even Maur and more prevalent I acknowledge that not everybody was is lucky to have been raised with that mentality as I was, although I’m sure there are others who had those really important dinner conversations about social impact where No, no, I’m not sure how caught prevalent toyour, but more and more. What I see with my students at Stanford when I see the next generation is that there is this changing mentality that non-profit work used to be just about writing a check to a foundation or thio non-profit and then being on your way, people want to roll up their sleeves. Now they want to get involved. Non-profit work is no longer relegated. Thio. You know when you leave the office at 5 p.m. That millennials are thinking about how can they make a difference in their work in making the word world a better place? Whether that is using their skills to do pro bono work, or whether that e-giving back through donations and getting others involved in like minded causes. To me, this is really exciting because it’s increased the potential for all of us. Thio make an impact in the world because we’re thinking about social change in a in a really different way. But it’s also really exciting for non-profits because there’s an opportunity for non-profits to capitalize on that. And I think too many non-profits out there are operating in this old fashioned model where they’re seeking donations. Maybe they have, you know, an annual event or an annual dinner where they bring people together for a long program and, uh, over dinner. And then that’s it. They collect their money, and then they get back to them the next year when it’s time for the dinner again. But people don’t want that. Donors don’t want that they want to be engaged, and they want to feel like they’re making an impact. And so the onus is on the non-profits to really think about how to help donors get involved, and ultimately that will lead Thio. I think more funding for organizations as well. You encourage non-profits to think about earned income, recognizing that it may not fit in every situation, that there might be non-profits where it’s not appropriate. But let’s talk about the potential for earned income and howto explore it well. I am keenly aware, as someone who was trained as a human rights lawyer that not all causes air suited for earned income. Human rights work is a perfect example of someone cannot afford the bus fare to get to the courthouse in the first place. They can’t afford to pay a lawyer for their rights. Many organizations are going to rely on philanthropic capital to fill that gap, and that is important. And that’s okay. But what I found in my research is that when possible, the organizations that are able to bring in earned income are going to be ableto have this kind of level of sustainability that helps them get through the hard times. Ah, lot of organizations talked about the recession in 2008 went so many grantmaking organizations pulled funding that they had already promised this was money that organizations were relying on, but their endowments had gone down and paint with the down Jones, and so they weren’t able to provide that really important funding and the organizations that had earned income sources, like a fee for service model or ah, model where they were selling products, those air the organizations that had the fuel to get them through that time when they didn’t know where their next philanthropic check was coming from. So it’s something that I think all non-profits need to at least consider as they develop their funding model, are their sources of her an income that can help grow the organization and and be willing to experiment with those. Absolutely. You also encourage a ah multiyear fund-raising plan. So it’s a little about what you’re going to that I think so many organizations think about fund-raising, like filling a bathtub with a teaspoon. It’s painful. You’re putting the water in a teaspoon by teaspoon, and then at the end of the year, when you start a new budget cycle, you drain the bathtub and you start over again. That is a really painful way to approach fund-raising, and what the best organizations do is they think about fund-raising on a multiyear strategy so they make sure that their grants when possible or multiyear grants so that there looking at funding 3 to 5 years out and not just here in a year, and then they help educate their donors on the importance of that. So not just not just foundations, but also individual donors who can contribute on a year to year level. And when you set that culture into motion, it helps you think much bigger about the prospects for fund-raising, as opposed Thio from a place of scarcity, that mentality of scarcity. It is him. There’s a lot of not just organizations, but people. They just they feel like the they aren’t going to get what they need. It really does. And I hate to use that example because I think it’s really easy, you know, as a researcher to say, just think bigger and non-profits I can think is because they wanted. That doesn’t mean that the funding is gonna come in the door. But I do notice there was one funder that I interviewed who said You can tell the difference between the organization when you ask them the question. What would you do if you had $10 million and the ones that are able to answer that question right off the bat. Those were the ones that are going to go big because they’re the ones that are thinking in that way and that have a plan and are and believe that they can get there. And so I think it’s really it is really about mentality in many ways. Yeah, all right, OK, so we need to overcome that. We need to have the courage to think that’s a $10 million level, absolutely, and don’t need to be thinking bigger, too. I mean, go both ways, and that’s your responsibility to help your donors think that way. Rate. Imagine what we could do if we had $10 million. Imagine how many lives we could touch inspire those donors to be a part of the solution. That is really what it’s all about. Collaboration. You mentioned it earlier when you were, ah, giving us the eloquent overview. Um, let’s let’s talk about the collaboration delegation. Strong leaders are not afraid to pass tasks onto others. It’s really critical, and organizations cannot succeed without a really strong team. The story that I love that really illustrates this is of Kiva dot org’s. I mentioned earlier that crowdfunding platform to support small businesses in the developing world, using donorsearch Unnie from premier from primarily United States but also now all around the world. And this organization started right around the same time that I co founded a spark. And so I I got to see this firsthand competition. Yes, well, they were in a competition, but you could benchmark against. I guess you were well, yeah, and and it was really amazing story because Jessica Jackley and Matt Flannery, the founders, were on Oprah Winfrey. They were featured in Bill Clinton’s e-giving book and were featured on The Oprah Show. That income that didn’t come for you as co founder of Spark? No, as much like the way I saw what happened for them, they raised $11 million overnight. After being on the Oprah show, they they literally crashed their servers and and we’re no longer able to accept funds. And so overnight they had to think about leadership in a very distributed way because they needed all hands on deck in order to distribute all of those funds that they had received until now is an organization they have 100 employees and 500 volunteers around the world. There, keep a fellows go into the field. Thio, Thio, follow-up on the Grants and Thio ensure that they’re going where they say they’re going and Thio tell those stories and catalog those stories. We rely on all those volunteers and all those staff to be on the front lines. And so they have strategies to make sure that those people, their staff, feel empowered to support the mission of the organization. So an example is they allow their staff to develop their own impact metrics so the staff can feel connected to how their work in particular is Contributing to the mission of the order is excellent. Okay, it’s not. It’s not top down right where we’re talking about the antithesis of top down leadership. Absolutely. I mean, even their feedback model. They have horizontal feedback mechanisms so that they’re not giving and receiving feedback in a top down way. And that really helps set into motion this culture of horizontal value for all employees. All right, Kathleen, we take our our third break. Um, I want to remind listeners the book is social startup success. If you’re listening live. You could be cooking right through now to Barnes and Noble or Amazon. Be buying it while I take this break time for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your work, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find all that at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for scale up and sustain Kathleen the, uh, the other part of collaborative leadership. Besides, um, strong, strong senior leadership is a strong active board. What do you like to see there? Well, a lot of organizations start out with what I call in the book of Friends and Family Board, where they know they have to legally have a board of directors. And so they go out and they recruit anyone who’s close to them. Thio help them with their organization, and this leads to a lot of problems because friends and family are not always the most suited to help you grow an organization they don’t always necessarily have the skills and often time friends and family. Tell you what, you want to hear those two really pushing you to be your best Not gonna challenge you Tell me they’re not gonna challenge you. They’re not gonna challenge you. Yes, exactly. And so and so and so really what I saw. The organization that scaled had a robust organise a robust organizational board that was suited for the skills that they needed and the talents that they needed to grow the organization. And even if it meant having to go through that brutal process of moving from the friends and family board to the more robust kind of governance board my husband always that we have three children and my husband always likes to say, I can’t fire my mother in law. You know, it’s a lot easier sometimes. Hire a baby sitter. Well, that should be Your job. Should be firing your own mother. It’s much easier for you to do. No one wants to have to fire their mother. So don’t put your mother on your board. That’s the lesson, Um, and and really getting it right. The first time is the best recipe for success. But there are strategies that I talk about in the book for how to move past the friends and Family board to a governance board. That’s really gonna help challenge you and get you through the strategic planning process to help you build a theory of change so that you can show your solution to the problem in a logical and impactful way. Board relationships Very tough for lots of organizations. The relationship between the CEO and the board. Sometimes it’s a micro managing board. Even those even the relationship between staff and the board can sometimes be difficult. Um, intra board relationships. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of potential for problems there. There’s a lot of potential for problems, and there’s a lot of potential for solutions. Well, one leaves you doesn’t have to be that hard. One of the key things that I talk about in the book for developing a really strong board is putting the policies in place. You’re very clear about what the expectations are of your board. I think a lot of these challenges come in when it’s just not clear whose role is what and what boardmember Zehr supposed to do. So let me give you an example. Organizations that responded to MAE survey said that only 15% of their boards are involved in fund-raising. When asked what they would like their boards to doom, or of 66% of the executive director, said they would like their boards to be doing more friendraising. So that’s a huge disconnect. And I would, I would ask, those organizations will, what have you done to communicate with your board that you would like them to be doing more fund-raising? What have you done to establish what they’re fund-raising goals are in the board policy. What have you done to support their fund-raising efforts? Have you provided events that they could bring their contacts to? Have you given them the stories that they need to tell at a cocktail party so that they know how to make an elevator pitch? If you want your board to be involved in friendraising, you need to lay the foundation to make that happen. So I think a lot of board frustrations that executive directors have with their boards can easily be alleviated by just laying the foundation with clear policies and clear expectations, like the model of collaboration that you were talking about. You know, bottom up. You encourage that also in buy-in storytelling. And, um, I know, I’m not sure if if you had Well, all right. I was gonna say my favorite part was the storytelling part, but if you had to pick, that was my favorite. I’m not saying that’s the most important. Is it possible for you to say which of these and we are gonna talk about storytelling very moment very shortly. Um, which of the five areas like, most important. Are you willing to rank them like that? Or I just think they’re all equally. It’s like asking me to choose My My favorite child thinks they are all important, but I will say that that that kind of they do. I write about them in the order that I write about them because I think that they do. They do lay the foundation for success in that order. So you can’t tell a good story until you have the deed I’ve and the qualitative stories to show for that. And so that impact measurement and that testing process is really key to get there. So you did. You did think through the sequence of, uh that you were gonna, um, present these in the book? Yeah. Sequence is very important. Okay. Non-profit metoo tested the war haphazard, but you thought through when you’re writing a book is different. So you you actually you thought through this. Okay, I’m gratified to hear that. Okay, um, so let’s talk about the story telling you, like, again, bottom up. Absolutely. It has thio involved everyone around you. There’s an organization I interviewed called ideo dot or GE and they use design thinking thio help non-profits develop innovative solutions in their work. And they have this thing that they they implement on in their staff meetings called storytelling roulette where they spin the wheel like a wheel of fortune. They they spin it and then randomly, it will land on a story and they’ll pick a staff person in advance. Who on the spot has to tell that story as if they were pitching it to a donor or a potential partner. I’m not because a every staff member hasn’t necessarily been involved in all of those projects and doesn’t necessarily have that institutional memories of the way to build institutional memory. It’s also a way to build skills. Storytelling is not something that just happened. Storytelling happens with a lot of practice and, uh, and a lot of opportunities to practice. One of my dear friends, Nadine Burke Harris, has a Ted talk with three million views, and she runs an organization called the Center for Youth. Wellness focuses on toxic stress. When I interviewed her and asked her about that Ted talk, she said she practiced it for six months. This 10 minute talk and she said by the end of those six months her husband could have given the Ted talk for her because she had practiced it so many times in front of him. So I think it’s important that we remember to make the space for that practice, not only for ourselves as leaders of organizations, but also for all of our teams and our board, and even benefit. Yes, I wanted to go to the beneficiaries. I was, um you’re so you’re so ah, comprehensive. I was hoping you were gonna leave beneficiaries, and then I would sound smart and say no, but what about beneficiaries? But, um, yeah, well, we just have about a minute and 1/2 left before we wrap up, so talk about encouraging beneficiaries to tell. Well, I think when you’re working with beneficiaries to tell stories, I think there’s ah lot of things that organizations need to do to be very conscious of what it means to put a beneficiary in that position and to set them up for success. So it’s not always appropriate. And I think organizations have to do a lot of thinking to make sure, for example, that beneficiary is well, past and being part of the program, that they are in a better place to be able to tell that story. But there really is no more powerful story for unorganised ation to tell them someone who has successfully made their way through the program and has created a better life because of that outcome. And so we talked earlier about outputs versus outcomes. That is an outcome when you can show that someone’s life has changed, and hearing that from from the beneficiaries own mouth is really going to be your most powerful sales person for the organization, those air so compelling the, uh, I mean those could be riel tear jerkers literally. Um, it’s and they don’t have to be high production value, but they could be very, very compelling. Very, very moving. Absolutely. All right. We have to leave it there. I want to thank you very much. Kathleen Kelly. Janice. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Tony. It’s been my absolute pleasure. The book. Get the book for Pete’s sake. We just did a romp through it. You need the book Social startup success. Have the best non-profits launch scale up and make a difference next week? I just don’t know. You know it’ll be worthwhile if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you. Find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Witness E. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com But koegler Mountain Software, Denali, fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, huh? Mmm. Do you run or are ready to open your own business? Hi, I’m Jeremiah Fox. I’ve been operating an opening small business for the last 25 years, and I’m the host of the new show, The entrepreneurial Web Tune in every Friday at noon Eastern time for insights and stories on the nuances of running small business. Right here on Fridays at noon talk radio dot N Y C aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti, non-profit Radio Fridays 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness. Um, Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant, and on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant. Our Awakening Humanity. 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Nonprofit Radio for October 11, 2019: Recruiting Your Board Members

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My Guest:

Gene Takagi

Gene Takagi: Recruiting Your Board Members
Gene Takagi returns with 12 tips, ideas and strategies you can use in board recruitment. We’re talking expectations, motivations, commitment, requirements, and more. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

 

 

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Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of wheel if I if you irritated me with the idea that you missed today’s show recruiting your board members. Jean Takagi returns with 12 tips, ideas and strategies you can use. Inboard recruitment will get those many of them as we can. We’re talking expectations, motivations, commitment, requirements and Maur. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and Exempt Organizations Law Group on 20 steak, too. I’ve never been so insulted in all my life. Responsive by Wagner, C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Witness cps dot com But Cougar Mountain Software, Denali, fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits Tony dahna may slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. And as I’m reading, I realize that the embarrassment of wheel we had that last week. So again, as I’ve said, uh, I’m in desperate need of an intern. So I have someone to blame for these mistakes. So so sorry we didn’t get ah updated sickness for you this week. Uh, no one to blame but myself, which is the problem. That’s why I need interns. Um, let’s let’s bring on Jean. I feel, uh, we’ll rescue everything for us. You know who he is? He’s the managing attorney of Neo non-profit Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non-profit Law block dot com. And in 2016 he was the American Bar Association’s outstanding non-profit lawyer. He’s at G. Tak Jean, help me out here, please. How are you? I’m doing great. How are you? Very well. You sound strong and powerful. And Vural and enthusiastic. I love it. Thank you. I need that. I need that after my real mistake. Um, So you, uh you have Ah, pretty lengthy. Uh, interesting block post that we’re gonna turn over a little bit, but you know, it’s you. You wrote something for individuals who are contemplating boardmember ship, but we’re gonna turn the tables on it on talk about non-profits or contemplating recruiting board members. And what? What advice you’ve got in that in that regard? Does that sound right? Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. Go. You’ve, uh you’ve been working with boards and board members for how many decades now? Um, a couple decades. Yeah. Yeah. So you know what you’re talking about. You You’re on your ANA least one board that I know of. Are you on more than one board currently on a couple boards and a few committees that are non board committees, but staying pretty active. Yeah. No, I know. I’m tryingto I just wanna, uh, establish the bona fide. He’s I mean, you’re not just not just a theory for you. You’re actually practicing it and keeping, ah, keeping real boards feet to the fire. Right. You’re not just not in a vacuum. This is real life for you. So yeah, both both the legal adviser to some boards and then sitting in the fire as the boardmember. I’m not sure I’d want to be on a board that you are a boardmember of you. Would you hold this will? You would hold us to high standards. I I certainly aspire to high standards. I don’t know if I achieve them often or ever, but I aspired to them. So I guess, Yeah, you we wouldn’t clash or anything if you were on the same board. I would I would respect you. I just would be annoyed that you’re always telling us that, you know, we’re not We’re not reaching the right standards of governance or you’re failing your failing the the the requirements of of the duties, the three duties. And and you’re not fulfilling your responsibilities as board members. I would, you know, I would respect you. Um, and I would I would aspire to do better in your words. I would. I would. Yeah. Totally trying not to be that type of boardmember. Well, but you’d be hard. You know, we all know those boardmember. Yeah, but will be hard for you to turn it off. I mean, you know, you’re you’re a fiduciary to the organization. You have. You know, it would be hard for you to turn it off. I could tell it would. All right. Um, So let’s see. So we’re starting with, you know, starting with some of the basics. Um, you want you want to make sure that people understand what? What they’re taking on what responsibilities The three duties, which you’re, um, loyalty, care and obedience. Um, you want to make sure that board members understand what they’re walking into? Yeah. I mean, that’s absolute basics because, you know, everybody could say, you know, I like to be on the board. I’m really passionate about the mission, and that’s a great starting point, but I know that that’s not gonna get very far if you’re not willing to do the rest of the work that’s involved. So just having an understanding of what your legal obligations are, first of all, is probably a good first place to start and for the non-profit, because you flipped it nufer the non-profit. When they start to recruit boardmember, they want to make sure that the board members kind of understand not only what the organization wants out of them, but what the law demands of them. And and they should have offensive. Actually, what could happen if they don’t settle the obligations and that maybe the boardmember from hell that nobody wants the ones who could tell the well in the worst case scenarios, which I sometimes see. This is what can happen it in, like the worst case scenario as you might imagine, might be personal liability of boardmember. Go out of pocket for something that happened with the organization on their watch, because perhaps gross negligence or something more serious than that, or just terrible PR damage where boardmember Zehr individually attacked by media and social media for some failure of the organization. I think from the headline in many news stories over the December and the beginning of the fall, we’ve seen some high profile non-profits where they have been called out for. You know, donors are for activities have engaged in, and so boardmember Zehr often held, you know, to thio how they’re living up to their authority on the responsibilities by the media and social media and maybe buy you a time dummy. Maybe that’s right. Non-profit radio also aspires to a very high standard. The show achieves the high standards. It’s me personally. It’s me personally. That’s ah, that’s rare for way. Just have about two minutes before before our first breaking. You make the point that there should be in place. My ability insurance directors and officers liability insurance. Well, that would be one of the things that I would look for as a perspective boardmember coming on to a board. So I would think that a non-profit that aspires to try to get high quality people on their board who are really interested in doing the work protection, huh? Just in case personal liability doesn’t become an issue. Directors and officers, insurance is kind of what protects against that. So that would be a mosque on my list. Do your do your boards that you sit on, let you get involved with recruitment. Yeah, I’m Max. Absolutely. Part of the one of the committee that that’s in charge of recruitment for one of the board. Excellent. Excellent. Okay. So that I shouldn’t say like, let you go. I mean it. That way, they take advantage of your expertise. That’s what I should say. Buy-in recruiting new boardmember. Yeah, because it is essential. You know, the people want to have to know what they’re getting into. And, of course, like you said, it has to go a lot lot further than just passion. Um, we have about a minute or so. What? You you knew, name something. What would you feel like bringing up for a minute? And then we could talk about it more after the break through? Sure, I guess, is a nonprofit organization I would want to know. Why does this individual? So I’m thinking about inviting onto the board. Want Do they want to be a board member of our organization? And I know everybody I talk to you is gonna say what we have a passion for the organization of the organization’s mission. But I would want to know what else. Why else do you want to serve? Sometimes those reasons could be all about, you know, uh, very altruistic. And you know what? Emotionally helping the people about our organization helps what that means to them and the social impact they want to create. But sometimes there are self interested reasons as well. And sometimes that’s okay to do it for personal reasons. And maybe we’ll get into that. Tony, would you have any personal reasons for wanting to serve on the board? Could you see some benefit that comes to you personally out of it? Oh, sure. Um, hold that thought. I’m not trying to get out of answering. Let me take this break, and, uh, and I will answer in about 30 seconds. Um, this break is for regular CPS. Are you thinking about a change possibility? Possibly in your c p. A relationship. Maybe your board is talking about boardmember boardings rumbling that they’ve had the same accounting firm for a long time. Or maybe they’re not quite up thio up to par for some reason, um, whatever the reasons, maybe you’re feeling, ah, growing need to get some accounting help. You know, a partner. You know, partner Wagner. You know, ye duitz doom. Weinger CPS has been a guest multiple times. Talk to him, see if they can help you get started at wagner cps dot com. Now, let’s go back to recruiting your board members. Um, okay, Gene. So, yes, Uh, I didn’t I didn’t call you out for asking me a question, which is generally prohibited, but that’s okay. Uh, so, yeah, I mean, I’ve ah, personal networking. I mean, if we’re getting to the base level, maybe there’s some people on the board who, you know, I’d like to I’d like to get to know, or maybe I know them and were friendly, and I feel like we would work very well together, Although that could be that could be a bit of a red flag for the non-profit. If if I’m gonna be like a voting bloc with my friend or two that, you know, that could be difficult, depending on what those one or two people are like. Um, but, yeah, of course. Networking business advantage. Um, maybe I’m on another board. And there’s some synergy put potentially between the organization’s, um so there’s a couple of non mission related reasons. What do you hear? You hear any bad stuff? Well, I’ll just add on 15 were good things, and then I’ll talk about the best. Like sometimes people want to develop skills and maybe create job opportunities for themselves. They may start off a boardmember hoping that that might turn into something out with that organization or maybe a allied organization. Um, prestige is probably another, and there are some status boards of, like foundations and symphonies and operas or whatever. Organizations have particular status in a community of whatever communities that have might happen to be sometimes sitting on the board ads toe kind of the social status that somebody might have and power. Sometimes I know for identity based group community organizations, sometimes serving on the board on it. Being with such high like that that that person is able to exercise power in other areas as well. So those might be reasons summer okay for serving on the board of long, but that’s not there. Those were not their primary reasons, or they do not let that get in the way of acting in the best interest of the organization above all other things. But sometimes there are some bad things. And then so serving on the board to get into a contract with your company, that wouldn’t be such a cool thing, although we hear of that happening with several organizations that are in the news. Um, have you where Jean have? Have you ever heard anyone disclosed that what in the in the recruitment process that they want it? Not that I’d like to see. I’d like I’d like to see this organization doing some work with my with my company. I haven’t heard you haven’t heard of the organization I join, but there’s definitely been some implications that for some of the reasons that you discussed well voting blocs created within the board from business partners or business, then you know they’re using that block to take advantage and have the whole board or enough of the board to agree to certain contracts, um, that allow their companies to do business. So I didn’t want to point out to meeting, but I think it’s safe to point out one name of an organization because they’ve been in the news an awful lot under governance. And that’s the N R A, which is actually a bunch of different organizations. Ah, but the n r A. That sort of the main organization, uh, has been kind of under heat a little bit for the contract that their board members and they have a very large board. I think over 70 people the contract that their board members have engaged in with the organizations and whether that was on abuse of their duties or not. I will comment on whether I think it is or not. But there’s that perception of a non-profit boardmember being on a board that the proof contract would that boardmember company and when that occurs over and over again with multiple board members and it starts to look like the voting blocs are sort of a wash, you wash my hands. I’ll wash yours kind of kind of deal. And so you have to think about the perception, and not only just the limitations that Lami have on that. There’s certainly some legal issues that could arrive, but the public perception of that and being on the front page of The New York Times or The Washington Post or whatever. And you know, with that allegations, what will that do to the rest of your fund-raising and how the rest of the community thinks of your organization? So there are some really interesting things that could be bad as well in terms of bad personal reasons for serving on the board. Um, I’m going backwards now to something that you mentioned about potential social media embarrassment for you being on the board. Critics of the organization, I guess, is there some way that an organization can, um, insulate or or somehow protect or what can what? Can an organization offer to, uh, mollify someone’s concerns over possible personal embarrassment on the social networks? Yeah, you know, it’s a really tricky thing. There are some organizations that try, so you’ll see that some organizations are very open about putting on their organizational website. You know who is on the board of directors? Um, but some organizations feel that they want to keep that information a little bit more private, and they don’t put their board members on their website. The limitation to that is that your form 9 90 which is a public document. And that’s your annual information return that you submit to the I. R. S. Um, that’s easily available on a site like GuideStar Archer. And, um, that’s going to list all of your board members on it. So as much as you want insulate some board members, that’s not really the way the law thinks about what the law thinks about. You know, non-profit organizations, while while they’re not public organizations, they’re not governmental organizations. They are the type of private organization without ownership where the board are really acting in Stuart’s on behalf of the community, Um, and they want to make sure that those organizations are fairly transparent and what they’re doing, including who is leading the organization. So that’s why that information is required on the form 9 90 board members and officers so that everybody could see them. And what type of compensation they make for the organization if they’re paid. So is there not really much protection that an organization could offer someone against attack again on the social networks? I’m thinking of that because it’s it’s so public, and it could be potentially so embarrassing. There’s really If someone wants to call out a boardmember, there’s not really nothing. It’s not really something that the organization could do. Tow support, the murder? Well, yeah. I mean, other than Dino insurance, you know, the the organization could It’s the beer enough. Have their lawyer perhaps look a defamation claim. That’s a stretch. That’s that’s really serious. Okay, yeah. And the social networks are Ah, well, yeah. I mean, they’re they’re pretty much open. They are what they are. You have to go pretty far. You have to go pretty far to be, uh, someone have a reasonable claim against you for defamation, right? And in that environment, right. And you’re weighing in against the First Amendment rights of people to be able to express their opinions like a yelp review that’s really bad and says, Well, you know, this organization has done horrible things, and these are the board members who are responsible. Well, that’s probably protected straight. All right, opinion. It’s something. But it’s something for organizations that are potentially controversial. If they’re doing grassroots political organizing or really doesn’t even have, sometimes have to be. It doesn’t have to be political to be controversial s. So if your organization has a mission that’s high profile of any of any sort, um, you need to make sure you’re boardmember understand that there’s a potential for them to be, uh, called out good or bad. We’re thinking about what we were thinking more of the bad. That’s true, Tony, I. And I think now that I think about your question about is there anything that you can do to protect your boardmember? There is one protection for small organizations that they might offer is to not publicized or use a board members home address or even their business address as the organization’s address. And I know a lot of small grassroots organizations do that. They kind of just use a board members. Or maybe the founders home addresses their organizational address. Yes, well, once you’ve made that public information now, people could actually go to that home. They know where you live. So, um, not subjecting a boardmember tiu. That might be important. And that that address might be located on a public document that details either the organization’s address for the ancient for service of process address. So that’s the agent preservative processes. Basically who? Somebody would deliver a lawsuit, too. And you are required to make that publicas well. And oftentimes people put a boardmember they’re on, they put their home address so they make sure that they get the mail. That’s not very good for privacy concerns. So those are two things to think about. You could get a P o box for 100 bucks a year or something. And sometimes a P O box is not permissible. They require a street address, But then you can look too. There are a lot of virtual offices that will let you suri address, right? Right. Yes, exactly. That’s right. The male shops that used to be mailbox etcetera. Um, but that type of that type of store, they’ll give you a street address, but it’s a storefront. Yeah, OK, yeah. That’s right. For service of process P O. Box. Not allowed. Probably, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, you want to be looking for someone who is, Uh Ah. Good. Ah, good team. Team player works well with others. They’re gonna be serving on committees. And of course, we talked about expectations. You gonna tell them whether they’re gonna be on one or two committees? Maybe you could even tell them which committee or committees they’re going to serve on or ask them what their preferences are. But it’s committee work. It’s full board work. It’s working team wise with the C suite, sometimes with the staff, maybe with volunteers, somebody who’s gonna be collegial and team worthy, right? Yeah, I think you know, I wouldn’t understand an organization that wouldn’t want that characteristic of a boardmember. And it’s hard to tell, right? Some people are good about, you know, putting on a good public safe. So it’s the only time you’ve ever met this candidate is, uh, you know, a breakfast interview, and then you’re deciding whether to that that person should be on the board or not. That’s a tricky decision to make because they can say they’re collegial player and be really nice at the breakfast meeting. But do you know how, though act in aboard environment, then sometimes that’s going to be very different from that one on one meeting. So getting to know the person might include a little bit more diligent but informing them of, like Witek of requirements and responsibilities they’re gonna have for your organization if that’s committee work or that other work or expectation that they volunteered at events that times are work with some other volunteers or work with some staff on some committee, whatever kind of the organization does with its own board members, that’s the expectation. And that’s why they want t get Yu on the board. You know, they’ve got to make sure they’re expressing that to the boardmember in advance before they bring them on, because the boardmember. Is walking into something that they didn’t know about. That’s gonna be a potential mismatch and can create some harsh feelings. It’s not managed, right? Yeah, sure. I didn’t know. Why didn’t you? Didn’t you tell me up front that this was gonna be the thieves? Were the expectations on And of course, as long as we’re talking about expectations again, we want to be very clear about fund-raising expectations. How much are you required to personally give. How much do you do we look for you to get from from other sources? Do we look to you to host events in your home or in your business? Uh, do we look to you to bring the business community to us, etcetera? All those types of fund-raising requirements should be should be laid out. Yeah, it’s a it’s a It’s a great question to ask, because this is a little bit of a debatable topic, and I see both sides on it. Is that fund-raising requirement? Tony Some a little curious as to how you feel about it, too. I kind of feel like it’s great to ask that every board member give a meaningful amount for them. But I’m a little bit more leery of the board that says, You know, we have a $1000 a $25,000.100,000 dollar minimum that you contribute a year for the privilege of being a boardmember big sickening that’s now framing it as a donor relationship rather than a relationship in which the expectations are is that the boardmember is been a exercise proper oversight and helped direct the organization into the future um So while I think donations should be a requirement of some sort, I don’t think strict numbers are really a good idea, Particularly if diversity and inclusiveness is something that we want in our organizational board. Yeah, Yeah. I used to feel that a strict number was appropriate, but I’ve changed my mind over the years that it should be what it should be a meaningful gift for the individual. Now, there are marquee names with that we’ll never get away from. You know, we have $100,000 requirement here, but we’re talking to small and mid sized non-profits, not the New York City Ballet and Stanford University. Right. So But you know that that, uh, well, they’re the other, the other 5% we’re talking to the other 95 but they’re the five that they’re not in the 95. So, uh, so they’re they’re moving them aside as we do routinely. We don’t even mention the 1999% of time without even thinking of them. So for our listeners, yeah, uh, it should be a meaningful. I mean, it should be a stretch gift, you know, But then you have to have conversation with each individual boardmember. You know what that means for them? I think I think before they joined the board, I I agree, Tony. I think that’s a good thing. Thio raise ahead of time. So you don’t put people in awkward positions where their like again going. I had no idea. And this is deeply personal for me. And I’m going through hard times now. Yeah, yeah. Do you like to see these expectations in writing? I kind of liked have, um, some of this in writing as part of the board orientation package so that both parties know kind of what, What he expected. Questions are going to be. So, uh, both, you know, in the board orientation package that I’m thinking of is going to be shared, even with part of it will be shared with a prospect before their actual provided onto the board. Okay, some of the questions that that you’re gonna ask of any prospect so they get to know you better as an organization, as the board of the culture that values better pervading the the organization. And they get to know you better than individual and to see if there is that right fit. So being as transparent as possible up front, I think, is the best way to help make sure you’ve got a good relationship going. You mentioned being independent enough to express your own point of view and not to be intimidated by other committee members of the board members. How would a non-profit assess that? Yeah, it’s a really good question. I think you could see the Valley, Tony and I know you’ve got a legal education background as well. So the independent judgment is really important. So we don’t have kind of a bunch of sheets. Just say, Oh yeah, way trust, you know, our chair or whoever. We will just go along with the boat without actually looking at any of the documents or any of the facts and circumstances related to that boat, which might be very important for which you might have particular skills that you could actually have given the full board. The benefit of if you had actually taken a look at that ensures what you what you had with it rather than sort of rubber stamping what somebody else said so that independent judgment is really important in terms of meeting your legal responsibilities. But it’s also just if you’re a team player, Um, I don’t think you’re just the team player. If all you do is follow, I think with a strong team, you are all supportive of one another. And when you have a certain skill that or experience or perspective, you share that and you utilize that so you can help the team in that area where other people, other people on the board may not have those things. And I think we’re also unique. That we can offer something different from the way everybody else is looking at Is the boardmember on almost any issues. So I think really contributing and exercising that independent judgment is, uh, super important. But testing it wth the question you asked Really hard. I know. So we asked the question. Or you can ask more generative question about how would you behave if you know, the board chair said, We want this on your head. Five out of six other board members say it, but you really disagreed with that. What would you do in that situation? That might be one of the types of questions that you ask a candidate for the board and see what they say. Yeah, Maybe that’s maybe that is the only way is just ask you. What would you do in that situation? All right, Jean, we have to take a break when we come back. Give us any more thoughts you might have on assessing that, uh, that independent judgment and then, you know, then you come back with something that you’d like to chat about. Meanwhile, we’re taking a break for cooking mountain software designed from the bottom up for non-profits. It’s simple to use phenomenal support. Can you say that about your own accounting software? QuickBooks? No. Quick in no turbo cash workday zoho Patriot. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can’t. Um so go with something that is made for non-profits from the bottom up. Cougar Mountain Free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at Tony dahna May slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two. I’ve never been so insulted in all my life. This woman years ago accused me of being a thief, a planned giving thief. She suggested that I would steal from an estate steal from my employer at the time. This is what I was a director of planned e-giving. Um, and all while trying to get me to do her a favor, which was technically well, not just technically, which was impossible for me to do is illegal for me to do not just on a technicality. It was illegal for me to have done, but she didn’t understand how this whole thing works. So, um, see what shocked me? It’s Ah, it’s a video where I’m hosted by Peter Heller of Heller Consulting Group. He’s got a video siris. He interviewed me. I told this shocking story, and you can find it on. Uh, yeah, I mean, you go to Peter Heller’s website, but why would you wanna go there when you go to tony martignetti dot com? That’s the place to go. Watch the video at tony martignetti dot com. All right, let us continue with Jean Takagi and recruiting your board members. Gene, anything more you want to say about possibly assessing independent judgment than anything come to mind there, but I think it has to do the questioning of the candidate. But maybe more importantly, you have to share with the candidate that you’ve got a culture that allows for independent judgment to be welcomed, right? You don’t want to make it look like you have this culture where everybody is going to rubber stamp a board members or the CBO’s. Maybe which is more common. Whatever the CEO decides upon, they know the day to day stuff, so they must be right. Do you have a culture that that allows the board to question, then probe and act more than just the sounding board? But really, Thio provide a lot of additional input and then decide whether the board should actually stacked in and make decisions where there’s enough of the board that that challenges what a particular board share or a CEO, my steak is in the best interest of the organization. So it is a particularly important point to create a culture that allows her for individual board members to intervene when it’s reasonable and appropriate. But I think that’s the last thing, okay, and this is related to something that you and I have talked about before, which is very bad sign. If all the votes are unanimous and there isn’t this culture that you just described, you know everybody just rubber stamps. Ah, there’s And we talked about it. It might be a strong board chair or CEO or somebody extra wealthy who everybody is intimidated by, or whatever. You know that those are all those are all very bad and counter to the culture that you’re talking about fostering. Um, what did you want? You got one. You do throw something out there? Sure. So I think another thing that an organization wants to do with with an individual is to make that individual comfortable, that they know who’s actually on the board and who the CEO is. Some some organizations recruit board members, and only one boardmember. Knows this new candidate. Nobody else has ever met him, you know, and they judge that candidate based on how they look on papers. But he’s got a good resume. Yes. Um, and this boardmember vouches for him, and we really need a boardmember. So let’s Alexis, um, yeah, uh, so you know that’s not a typical. It’s pretty common. So for non-profits have a system where they went. Why don’t we have that breakfast meeting or lunch meeting and bring out a few board members on bring out the CEO for one of these things. If you’re you know, it is a board member and the board really that important to an organization. And the law recognizes a tte the top of of what is still ah, hi article system in terms of governance, it’s the law requires, you know, that the board is at the top, then a boardmember position is super super important. And is the organization treating the addition of a boardmember as it is that important? And that’s a good sign of the board for an individual candidate and for aboard that actually sets it up so that they’re going to place proper priority to bringing on a new boardmember by letting the meet several board members and CEO and maybe attended board meeting without any, um, sort of strings attached. A visitor. You come out and see a get to know us, we’ll get to know, you know, that’s a promising Anything I haven’t heard that suggested for That’s a good one. Let someone come to a board meeting as a visitor as an observer, that was you mean? Yeah, exactly. Um, and I think they would get a sense of what the culture is much better from actually getting to be in the meeting. Even if they’re a silent observer. I’m sure there’s going to be some pleasantries exchanged, but they’ll know much better. And you get a sense out of them if you actually allow them to participate as part of the board. Um, at least with introductions and maybe what they want out of what their views are of the organization that that might be a nice baker. Also your point about doing it based on a breakfast meeting in a resume review that, um, yes, this is subsumed in what you were saying, really? But I won’t make it explicit that that that just doesn’t give, um doesn’t give credence to the, uh doesn’t respect the, uh, the position that you’re bored should be held in. It makes it, you know, just purely transactional. We need a body, she’s available, and she has a good resume that, you know, that doesn’t doesn’t, uh, give someone ah, feeling of prominence in the organization like Ajay. If it hadn’t been my warm body that that was brought in, there would have been some other warm body that they found the next day, but but a Siri’s where there’s multiple interviews to three interviews over several weeks on and there’s deliberation and you make sure the person shows up on time for the three interviews and takes them seriously, you know, those you can learn a lot just by observing somebody over over several weeks or maybe even over a couple of months. Yeah, I think that’s so true. And I met the okay with even introducing some perspective board members to certain staff beyond the CEO. Um, so and then soliciting staff input is, well, a thio what they think about this perspective. Candidates. Um, I, uh I am forgetting a good picture. Look all around from all people. Um, and Aziz said that the importance, I think articulated much better than I did. The importance of the position should be respected by the process. That’s what I meant to say. Yeah, I think you just said it better than I did. Okay. Really Got you said. You certainly said it more succinctly. That’s definitely true. Um, okay. You have one. You gotta You gotta basically have your compliance house in order your nine nineties articles of incorporation by-laws policies. Your financial statements, whether audited or not, All these things I mean, this is sort of foundational, but, you know, if there’s a problem in any of these, you’re you are got you at the organization are gonna look poor in the eyes of your perspective. Board members. That’s what I think. And I think as a perspective boardmember and I will give you this morning, actually for a board. So coincidentally, um, I’m gonna look at all these. Um and I will look at them with a bit of a critical eye to see if I see sloppiness. Where if I see vagueness in in what the missionary, I see a different mission statement in the articles from the by-laws the website. Like I had really tell what they’re doing where they’re 9 90 Just seemed to be like, very, you know, scattered. We prepared. Of course. I’m gonna see, you know, the financial. I’m gonna see how stronger week they appear, at least on paper. Moneywise. Um, so there’s a lot of things the documents are gonna show me. So if a non-profit is very careful about doing these things and finding on time, of course it I’ll see if they’re finally late and you know they’re suspended or delinquent or or whatever. So the non-profits should like when whenever you invite a houseguest over that you want to impress in, clean your house before you bring that person. And I think non-profits got to think this thing. Wait, they’re gonna bring the boardmember and again back-up prominent important positions. We’re going to clean our house so we can attract the best candidates. And hope will retain the best candidates as well. Well, Gene, that organization would be lucky to get you in-kind on. How many boards can you be on? My gosh, you’re on your own. You already you have time for? Yeah, I usually have a tube board maximum. But the organization that pocket is important enough. And I actually have a term off of another board. Uh, within the year that that gives me the ability to sort of overlap with three boards for maybe a few months. If I If I should be so lucky as to be elected by that order, um, But then then we’ll be back to two boards after that. Okay? I see you get you have a whole schedule of new spreadsheet to manage. You’re bored. You’re bored. Obligation? Yeah, actually. D’oh, I’m very careful about trying not overcome it. Let’s talk about something that you and I talked about. Oh, I don’t know. Three months or so ago, maybe 23 months. We had a real well, uh, meaningful conversation about diversity equity and inclusion. So without going over the that full hour that we spent, um, if this is important to the organization, then it’s going to want to recruit board members for whom that value is important. Yeah, I think so. Well, and if they’re looking to recruit, um, certain, uh, members of the community that might give the board more diverse representation. They’re gonna want to really think about making that person feel not like a token which we discussed about and have an inclusive environment that really welcomes their ideas and acknowledges and ensures that they’re able to exercise the power that they have in their position, that they have a voice in the organization and in the governance of the organization. They’re not just sitting by the sidelines, helping the board take a better looking picture. So it really is an issue. But it comes down to where? For an individual. If you believe strongly in that In in that diversity concept, um, and you are invited onto a board that’s not diverse, and you’re a member of the majority group. So let’s say the group is predominantly white man and your white male we get invited onto that board. Well, if you really falik the value of diversity equity inclusion, you might say, No, I’m not gonna take that position on that board because I would grab you see that board bring on somebody who does give you a more diverse perspectives representation on Guy might, you know, being part of the majority group, participate in another way to help you get that. But I don’t want to be part of a board and just make make that that issue on even harder one to deal with. So it’s an interesting situation for organizations that want to think about it. Um, if they want to bring in the best people, they’re gonna have to think about how they’re gonna address their composition issues as well. That that happens to be an issue. Yeah, no, it’s very altruistic. The way you describe you know, the selflessness of doing what’s right for the organization. Bye bye. Not not accepting a board position and flip that on its side. Uh, non-profits need to be, uh, thoughtful about who they are inviting If this is an important value for them, Jean, we gotta take our very last break turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories all the while building support for your mission. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to dot CEO and Jean and I have but loads more time for recruiting your board members. Um, all right, G, you have something, uh, you want to bring up? Sure. I think maybe the next important point I wanted to bring up because it happened to the indication is non-profit is great. It’s filled with wonderful people and they they’re really working towards something that I believe in passionately in their culture is the great says everything seems to be fine, but at the moment they are confronting some really difficult issues that’s going to require extra effort extra tax from the board, and it might be a financial challenging, financially challenging time for them might be a leadership transition, that they’re losing a founder or expect long term executive director and they’re gonna move into a new one. They might be engaged in litigation for which they did nothing wrong. But all of this doesn’t They’re going to be sort of boiled in in lawsuits and potential PR damage that might go along with that on all of the things can create more work for aboard and definitely require more effort in intelligence impact from the board. I think non-profits have to let prospective board members know, even if those things have not hit the media are are really public yet that if they’re coming on toe into an organization that’s got some imminently difficult challenges that will be brought before the board, they want to know first. Is that the best time to recruit boardmember? Because it might not be. But if they are recruiting port members, I think they got to be up front again with them and not surprised them after their dahna boardmember got you. Now you gotta be on the committee that deals with art. Being involved in this lawsuit duty to disclose basically thing I think that that organizations have to be up front about that, obviously very tactful there. I know there are confidentiality issues that are gonna be weighing in on the other side of that transparency, so somethingto really managed very carefully and thoughtfully. You’re basically saying there’s a duty to disclose these these kinds of challenges, and that could be an opportunity the organization could could turn that into something, you know? Yeah, we have this particular financial challenge, but that’s why we’re looking for you. Andi is not to be a donor, but, you know, maybe it’s Ah, it’s a it’s a finance problem or an investment problem on endowment management problem or something. And so you’re can hyre are sorry. Recruit someone who has a particular expertise and that person could, you know, potentially be a leader in I don’t want to turning the organization around but guiding the organization out of the difficulty that they’re facing so it could present a challenge and an opportunity for non-profit and for a potential boardmember to come together and help each other. I think that’s very, very true. Yeah. And financial management expertise is, um, really sought after quality for a board members. And sometimes some boards have a hard time finding those people, so it’s a difficult issue. Arises. And, um, uh, they put extra effort into finding somebody like that that that can be an opportunity for referred bringing ana boardmember gonna be invaluable for many, many years. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what about, um, the, uh just, you know, sort of leadership personality, like, you know, Are you Are you? Ah. Are you messing? Well, you are. You messing well as leaders with the the potential boardmember do you put forth a, um, an image which hopefully is not merely a not a facade, but, you know, Are you confident you you convey confidence in the direction of the organization, the your leadership, your leadership style? Uh, you know, these, I think, are sort of intangibles that Ah, well, much of what we’re talking about is intangible, but that ah, potential boardmember is using toe assess whether they’re gonna fit. Yeah, absolutely. I’m sure they’re all the studies that we know of. Um, where first impressions are powerful tribes of what that relationship turns into um so or whether there is a continued relationship at all. Um, and I think that’s very true in bringing Ana boardmember as well. So boardmember gets introduced to a board chair or to an executive director or somebody else in a senior leadership position. And first impressions are going to develop pretty quickly. So certainly within the 1st 30 seconds Teoh a minute. Um, they’re going to be some presumptions that each side has about the other. And I think understanding the limits of what first impressions means are important for board members when you’re dealing with people who might be introverted or shy, and or maybe from a cultural, different cultural background not used to sort of exhibiting some of the the the confidence you know that you might find from another culture stressing that important in the first meeting maybe is more of a dimmer, demure attitude that is more valued by other cultures upon the first meeting, or that find that more appropriate. But I think we have to sort of take into account that there are different reasons that people are are showing for the first impression. But on the other side, when you’re the non-profit. You do want to make sure that you are giving the best impression we can, not just in the documents that we talked about earlier, but in your leadership. So I’m always a huge fan of education and trading, and I think boys don’t do that enough for their CEOs in their board chairs. Um, so yes, way kind of expect them to have the skill on. And maybe once in a while we’ll send them to a training where they’re just sort of getting training about the secretary, you know, in a sector wide conference or something. But are we really giving them training on on certain things that might be really, really relevant, but very, very specific? So if they’re the public face of the organization, should we be giving them some public relations training or some media training? Those things, too, just sort of think about it again. I’m a big fan of training, and the board can really help by saying we want allocate some resources to this on. Make sure that we’re providing for that, that that strong first impression and understanding about first impressions on their limitations when we’re judging other people on it. Yeah, I’ve seen instances to where, um, the organization invests in coaching for the CEO. I’ve seen that I’m not a couple times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they see promise potential. But I guess the CEO, maybe, you know, like like all of us, I mean has some shortcomings. You know, maybe it’s Ah, I don’t know what leadership leader, management of the other C suite individuals. Or maybe it’s, you know, there’s not enough team building or something, you know, whatever it is, they see a need a gap, and, uh, they invest in a coach for the for that CEO. I think that’s such a great, um, uh, allocation of research from from from many organizations that have money to invest in their leadership leadership training. I think coaching from the right people could be invaluable even for a very, very senior executive. None of us have all of the tools and all of the best qualities. Andi executive director seems to need so many different skillsets so many experiences in so many abilities. I think coaching never heard. Um, we’ve talked about we talked about the consistency across documents, and so now we’re talking about meeting, meeting the leadership of the organization and maybe even meeting some staff, introducing staff to potential board members. You want to make sure that not only your documents but you’re your people boardmember Zand staff and see sweet alike are consistent in terms of messaging, that they all have the common vision that’s laid out in the vision statement and that the articles of incorporation of the by-laws without by-laws the articles of incorporation speak to know the people all need to be consistent, as as thes potential board members are interviewing them just as much as you’re interviewing the potential board members. Yeah, I think that’s very true. And I think when the, um kind of the things that I think is overlooked right now is the importance of memorializing or documenting the organization’s value. Um, in a document like the by-laws Wait, don’t do it. We have incited a standard practice. I’m trying to think about that being an actual, um, important section of the box by-laws. Really? Okay, Yeah, I think organizations Now, um, you’re driven by your your mission, of course, but it’s not just your mission. You’re also driven by your value because if your mission was, I don’t know. We talked about this example before, but your mission was just thio. If feed homeless people, you could just wait down suit on the sidewalk, right? You could play down slop there, and many homeless people have to eat it that nobody does that right, because that’s not within our values of having people had to be treated with dignity and respect. Um, organizations just won’t do that. But we don’t explicitly say why we don’t just affect the mission, you know, to the maximum degree by just doing things without, you know, care and just laying it out. So I think it’s really important that we say what our values are and how the values that I think about are those that will guide our decisions so that it actually stops us from saying we’re gonna spend a maximum amount to get the most people served. No, we’re gonna not spend the maximum to maximize the number of people served. We want to maximize the service that we’re giving as well in balance, that and why are we doing that because of these values? And I think that has to be documented. So with that we know we actually share them with all the people, including the perspective boardmember. We don’t just assume it. That may not be true. Okay, Jeanne, we gotta leave it there. Well said he’s managing attorney of Neo non-profit Exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. You’ll find the block post that we were speaking from at non-profit law block dot com, which you should be subscribed to its 12 considerations before you join that non-profit board. But I’m not sure I don’t want I don’t want a decrease traffic on hits to your site, But I think we I think we did a pretty good job of going through. Ah, all these 12. Maybe we didn’t. You know, we didn’t explicitly one through 12 but I think we’ve covered the vast majority. These, if not if not everything. Jean, thank you very much. Thanks for sharing your expertise. Thanks so much, Tony. Really appreciate it. My pleasure. Next week. Scale up and sustain with Kathleen Kelly. Janice. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers Witnessed gps dot com but koegler Mountain Software, Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits. Tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein, who is me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern Time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned Potential Live Life Your way on talk radio dot N Y C aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. 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