Category Archives: Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Nonprofit Radio for May 23, 2022: Many Ways To Test Your Digital Fundraising

 

Jeremy Haselwood: Many Ways To Test Your Digital Fundraising
As our #22NTC coverage continues, Jeremy Haselwood walks you through 30 variables you can test throughout your digital fundraising, including your homepage, donation pages, Facebook ads, and more. He’s from Fundraisers Unite.

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mm hmm. Hello

[00:00:12.80] spk_1:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:00:26.24] spk_0:
Profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad

[00:00:28.04] spk_1:
you’re with me. I’d

[00:00:28.35] spk_0:
suffer the effects of

[00:00:29.56] spk_1:
osteoporosis if

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I had to raise my eyebrows to the idea that you missed this week’s show many ways to test your

[00:00:38.94] spk_1:
digital fundraising As our 22 NTC coverage continues,

[00:00:41.82] spk_0:
jeremy hazelwood walks you through lots of

[00:00:44.59] spk_1:
variables you can

[00:00:45.66] spk_0:
test throughout your

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digital fundraising,

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including your

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homepage donation pages, facebook ads and more.

[00:00:54.24] spk_0:
He’s from

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fundraisers

[00:00:56.13] spk_0:
unite

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On Tony’s take two doubling

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down on please share

[00:01:03.84] spk_1:
redux. We’re

[00:01:03.95] spk_0:
sponsored by turn to

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communications pr

[00:01:06.57] spk_0:
and content for

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nonprofits. Your

[00:01:14.04] spk_0:
story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. And by 4th dimension technologies

[00:01:16.94] spk_1:
I

[00:01:17.12] spk_0:
thi infra in a box

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the affordable tech solution for

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nonprofits.

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tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just

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like three D.

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But they go one dimension deeper.

[00:01:29.64] spk_0:
Here

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is many ways to

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test your digital

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fundraising.

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Hello and

[00:01:36.00] spk_1:
welcome to

[00:02:11.54] spk_0:
Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 NTC 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10. Those very smart folks who help you use technology as you are doing your mission as you are doing your social change work everyday. They’re helping you leverage technology. My guest now is jeremy hazelwood. He is digital fundraiser, author, trainer and marketer at fundraisers United Jeremy Welcome to nonprofit radio Hey, Tony, thank you for having me here. I’m so excited to be here and talk digital fundraising. Absolutely. That’s what we’re here to do. I’m glad you’re excited Thank you. Alright. I’m glad to see you get excited about digital fundraising man. It’s my passion. So it’s like I wake up and I’m, I’m excited every day because I get to help companies raise money and do more good in the world. So

[00:02:31.26] spk_1:
it took a while to figure

[00:03:16.54] spk_0:
out what it is that gets me up. But that’s, that’s definitely it. This is it. All right. And your session is aptly named 30 ways to test your digital fundraising. You would like to see nonprofits develop a testing plan testing regimen. Yeah, yeah. I think it’s something that’s very underutilized just in my experience working with nonprofit, especially from a digital side. Um, my background is like I worked for agencies that marketing and fundraising agencies that serve nonprofits heavy and direct mail. And my role with them was to really bring digital and make it, um, just a better channel for their clients to raise funds. I noticed they do a lot in testing when it comes to direct mail, but when it came to digital,

[00:03:17.90] spk_1:
it was kind of

[00:04:06.44] spk_0:
bland and one message and I’m like, there’s still so much that we can learn from digital, we can learn it so much more quickly than we can with direct mail. Okay. Um, is there a way that you’ve organized these, these 30 ways. I don’t know if we’ll be able to tick through all 30. Yeah, depending on how much you have to say about them, but we might, you know, we’ll see well organized by like channel um, facebook goal etcetera. Yeah, it’s actually funny. Like the original concept for this session, um, that I pitched to NtC was like 100 ways to test and it was gonna be a 60 minute session. Actually. No, no, that’s not. I have a, I have 100 ways to test within fundraisers unite. But for N TC, I was gonna do like 60 ways to test 60 and 60 minutes and then They’re like, well we only have the 30 minute sessions available. I’m like, let’s do 30 in 30 minutes. Um, 40, There you go. See the math works itself out. But, but for the sake

[00:04:21.13] spk_1:
of like organizing to

[00:04:22.15] spk_0:
your point. Um,

[00:04:23.16] spk_1:
I did, I focused

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on some specific areas. So I looked really

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at email, um

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social media,

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um, search

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engine marketing and

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let’s see

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um, donation page and social media. Really your facebook ads, not like all social, but so email, facebook ads. Search engine marketing, your donation page and your homepage. So these are

[00:04:45.20] spk_1:
The five areas that I

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focused on for the session

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for NtC.

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Okay, let’s start with the homepage and the donation pages because odds are

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everybody’s got one of those

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both of those and I do see some pretty weak donation pages, uh,

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lacking

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technology,

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lacking visual appeal.

[00:05:07.84] spk_0:
Um, so, but let’s, let’s start with, let’s start with the home page and you know, we’ll go beyond those two, but let’s make sure we cover the homepage and then donation pages. So what’s your advice around the homepage?

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Yeah,

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so with the homepage, I mean

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naturally it’s like

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you want your donation page, there’s so many boxes at the homepage, has to check when people come to your website, they need to know who you are, why you do what you do, who you do it for um in a way for people to connect with you. And some of

[00:05:36.31] spk_1:
the things that I talked about it and what people

[00:05:38.45] spk_0:
don’t realize too is like there’s things

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that you should test on your

[00:05:41.28] spk_0:
homepage. Um and there’s tools that you can use to test.

[00:05:44.03] spk_1:
Also, I didn’t get into the

[00:05:45.10] spk_0:
tools within the session,

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but you can use

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like um optimized

[00:05:49.00] spk_1:
lee or um

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omni convert. These are

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tools and

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actually google optimized you

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can use. These are tools that I

[00:05:56.44] spk_0:
we don’t have time to

[00:05:57.17] spk_1:
go into those, but what they

[00:05:58.41] spk_0:
essentially do is help

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you kind of a b test

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different elements on your homepage, for example, resources. Those

[00:06:04.69] spk_1:
3. 1 more time I’d like to

[00:06:05.80] spk_0:
share.

[00:06:06.47] spk_1:
Sure, sure. Optimized

[00:06:08.90] spk_0:
lee.

[00:06:09.84] spk_1:
Omni convert

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and google

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optimized and google

[00:06:14.11] spk_0:
optimize is free, but there are certain limitations, but

[00:06:17.26] spk_1:
basically these are

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like conversion rate

[00:06:19.29] spk_1:
optimization tools for your website or even

[00:06:23.94] spk_0:
for your donation page and to summarize

[00:06:25.59] spk_1:
what what these tools

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do is let’s say you’re one time that your homepage

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loads, You’ll

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get image a, as your homepage better and the next

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time your web page loads,

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it’ll be image

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B of the homepage banner.

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So it’s kind of randomized

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if you will, just

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to simplify. So

[00:06:42.74] spk_1:
when people see your

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website, they’ll get a version

[00:06:44.72] spk_1:
A and version be of your website.

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So you can test

[00:06:47.76] spk_1:
different things on your

[00:06:48.64] spk_0:
website, like an image

[00:06:50.23] spk_1:
or a call to action or a headline or

[00:06:52.27] spk_0:
something like that. Um, that’s generally what that does. Um, that’s again, I didn’t get into any of that because it does get to be a little more technical. Um, really what my point of my session was and really the point today is like,

[00:07:05.74] spk_1:
here’s what you

[00:07:06.65] spk_0:
can test and then we can also get into

[00:07:08.72] spk_1:
why it’s important to test,

[00:07:09.85] spk_0:
which a lot of it’s kind of common sense knowledge, but that’s not always common practice though. Um, but when it comes to your home page, one of

[00:07:17.79] spk_1:
the things that, that I

[00:07:18.71] spk_0:
always recommend is like testing like your hero image, which is like that first image that’s at the top of your home page. Um, some nonprofits might have a video running up there instead of an image, but testing that using, like, especially if you’re

[00:07:32.64] spk_1:
doing a campaign,

[00:07:34.34] spk_0:
um, if you’re running a

[00:07:35.81] spk_1:
campaign like right now, I don’t know

[00:07:37.81] spk_0:
when people will hear this, but let’s say it’s

[00:07:39.80] spk_1:
a springtime

[00:07:40.85] spk_0:
campaign, your email is springtime campaign oriented. You’re, let’s say you’re running

[00:07:45.74] spk_1:
facebook ads. It’s springtime campaign

[00:07:47.75] spk_0:
oriented. Um,

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so like let’s

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have like your

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hero image on your

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page be that

[00:07:53.77] spk_1:
same campaign

[00:07:54.94] spk_0:
as opposed to like

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here’s what we do or

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here’s how you can volunteer,

[00:07:59.14] spk_1:
like make that image

[00:08:00.58] spk_0:
coincide with the rest of your campaign elements.

[00:08:03.94] spk_1:
Right? Make

[00:08:04.47] spk_0:
it timely make it integrate

[00:08:05.61] spk_1:
with your campaigns,

[00:08:06.69] spk_0:
test that with the campaign versus not testing it if

[00:08:09.68] spk_1:
you don’t have the tools

[00:08:11.03] spk_0:
and watch

[00:08:11.82] spk_1:
how your donations

[00:08:12.82] spk_0:
will increase because that message is right there in

[00:08:15.19] spk_1:
the front for people to see.

[00:08:16.62] spk_0:
Um, so

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you know, that that’s one thing that you

[00:08:21.84] spk_0:
can test is your hero image using a campaign image as opposed to like a

[00:08:22.83] spk_1:
general branded image or

[00:08:28.24] spk_0:
some other kind of call to action image. Um, so I’ll pause there, see if you have questions or if you wanted me to

[00:08:30.72] spk_1:
kind of roll into the next

[00:08:31.91] spk_0:
one, you know, go to the

[00:08:32.85] spk_1:
go to the next homepage

[00:08:34.13] spk_0:
idea.

[00:08:34.72] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah. Next one would be like your

[00:08:37.09] spk_0:
donation

[00:08:37.87] spk_1:
button text. Um,

[00:08:40.04] spk_0:
pretty much every

[00:08:40.80] spk_1:
nonprofit. I haven’t

[00:08:42.02] spk_0:
Seen one and I don’t

[00:08:43.18] spk_1:
know how long

[00:08:44.37] spk_0:
that does not include that donate button

[00:08:46.28] spk_1:
up in the upper, usually

[00:08:47.38] spk_0:
right hand corner.

[00:08:48.42] spk_1:
Uh, and most of

[00:08:49.52] spk_0:
them will say donate and I think

[00:08:51.45] spk_1:
that’s fine. I don’t think

[00:08:52.42] spk_0:
there’s anything wrong with donate, but what if instead of donate it said give now

[00:08:58.04] spk_1:
or make

[00:08:58.64] spk_0:
a difference

[00:08:59.42] spk_1:
or feed a

[00:09:00.32] spk_0:
family, you know, whatever

[00:09:01.72] spk_1:
that call to action,

[00:09:02.71] spk_0:
maybe fund

[00:09:04.24] spk_1:
a research study.

[00:09:06.24] spk_0:
Um, so

[00:09:07.12] spk_1:
we’re very accustomed to just saying donate now because it’s

[00:09:09.60] spk_0:
very direct, but it’s also

[00:09:10.99] spk_1:
very transactional.

[00:09:12.48] spk_0:
Um, but again,

[00:09:13.54] spk_1:
I’m not saying that it’s,

[00:09:14.48] spk_0:
it’s not going to

[00:09:15.59] spk_1:
work for your organization, but if we

[00:09:16.97] spk_0:
don’t test, we don’t know

[00:09:18.19] spk_1:
right.

[00:09:18.86] spk_0:
Um, and I think there’s certain

[00:09:20.52] spk_1:
kind of boilerplate

[00:09:21.54] spk_0:
templates that is non profit as an

[00:09:23.94] spk_1:
industry we go

[00:09:24.86] spk_0:
with because we know that in general this

[00:09:27.09] spk_1:
is what’s supposed to work. And I don’t

[00:09:29.71] spk_0:
remember you

[00:09:30.76] spk_1:
remember years ago act Blue

[00:09:32.36] spk_0:
did well with Chip in.

[00:09:34.44] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:09:36.06] spk_0:
something like

[00:09:36.69] spk_1:
that. But I’m sure they, I mean

[00:09:57.94] spk_0:
they have lots and lots of records that they’re mailing too. So I’m sure they tested and, and chip in. You saw the blue button and said and for them it was like chip in, you know? Yeah. Well, but, and even to that point it’s like chip in and that could be like vernacular. That’s that organization and their audiences like they associate with that non profit you know, So what’s the vernacular, the language

[00:10:00.72] spk_1:
that you’re a nonprofit would

[00:10:01.69] spk_0:
use, you know, maybe it is chip in, you know, maybe it’s feed a family, you know, whatever that is, but test that out. Um, if you don’t have, if you have zero data, your new nonprofit or you’ve never tested before, then you probably have data on what donate now is doing for you. Like let’s switch it for a month and try to keep everything constant If we, if we have too many factors going, we’re not going to know what works, you know, so you always want to change

[00:10:24.81] spk_1:
One thing at one time.

[00:10:26.14] spk_0:
Um, and if all

[00:10:26.91] spk_1:
things are the same and we

[00:10:28.01] spk_0:
only changed the text on that donated button, then it’s a pretty safe bet that the donate button was the reason that, you know, the,

[00:10:35.49] spk_1:
that we got and you can

[00:10:38.54] spk_0:
also test it with. I’m trying to think of some of the other

[00:10:39.85] spk_1:
tools. Um, well even the tools

[00:10:42.64] spk_0:
that I mentioned, they can test conversion rates and things like that.

[00:10:45.52] spk_1:
But because

[00:10:46.50] spk_0:
I know one pieces, like we talked about testing, but then there’s like,

[00:10:48.91] spk_1:
how do you measure the testing? Um,

[00:10:50.85] spk_0:
and one is if you’re, you’re not using any

[00:10:53.25] spk_1:
tools, it’s just kind of how did we do last month

[00:10:57.44] spk_0:
versus how we do this month? Um, did we change anything

[00:10:58.99] spk_1:
else? No, Then we can probably attribute it to this and that’s kind of the

[00:11:02.54] spk_0:
roundabout. Like

[00:11:03.49] spk_1:
we can probably attribute it to this.

[00:11:05.50] spk_0:
Um, if

[00:11:06.52] spk_1:
smaller, medium

[00:11:07.67] spk_0:
sized nonprofits

[00:11:08.40] spk_1:
may not have the budget

[00:11:09.68] spk_0:
to actually put the analytics and technology behind

[00:11:12.16] spk_1:
knowing for sure

[00:11:13.50] spk_0:
what

[00:11:14.30] spk_1:
the difference maker was. But if you’re

[00:11:16.18] spk_0:
looking for some data points like that’s certainly something that can help is

[00:11:20.11] spk_1:
swapping it out and keeping

[00:11:21.35] spk_0:
everything else the same.

[00:12:07.14] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, Content creation and content management, What projects do you have that they can take off your plate, lift these weights from your shoulders? Content creation Is there some writing project some series that you need to do or that you’ve been thinking about doing you’d like to do for internal audiences. External board donor’s community. What writing projects can they take off your plate and then the content management and also the distribution. Getting you the

[00:12:07.84] spk_0:
placements and

[00:12:49.14] spk_1:
as well as managing that content for you on your site, whether that’s blog, wherever you may, print or digital. Right, Alright. So how can they help you with content creation, content management and then also the distribution, getting the, getting your good word, you as an opinion leader, thought leader in your community. Getting that out. Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to many ways to test your digital fundraising.

[00:12:54.74] spk_0:
You made the point a

[00:12:56.05] spk_1:
couple of times, keeping everything

[00:12:57.26] spk_0:
else the same. I

[00:12:58.88] spk_1:
guess if you if you change a few things

[00:13:01.05] spk_0:
or a bunch of things

[00:13:02.54] spk_1:
and your outcomes improved,

[00:13:07.04] spk_0:
I guess

[00:13:07.82] spk_1:
by outcomes, you know,

[00:13:08.65] spk_0:
we’re keeping it simple. So we’re saying

[00:13:10.00] spk_1:
donations improved.

[00:13:11.67] spk_0:
Then

[00:13:12.47] spk_1:
then then

[00:13:13.21] spk_0:
then that’s terrific.

[00:13:14.25] spk_1:
But if donations declined

[00:13:16.35] spk_0:
and you don’t know what it is that you changed that caused them to

[00:13:19.14] spk_1:
decline. So then you have to go back to where you were in the beginning

[00:13:22.43] spk_0:
and then

[00:13:23.39] spk_1:
iterative lee changed

[00:13:26.44] spk_0:
one thing at a time and

[00:13:26.59] spk_1:
figure out what what what

[00:13:29.24] spk_0:
is, what is, what

[00:13:29.49] spk_1:
is it that’s depressing

[00:13:30.73] spk_0:
your,

[00:13:31.56] spk_1:
your outcomes and change that one little thing

[00:13:33.92] spk_0:
and then and then test and see

[00:13:35.54] spk_1:
if you, you get higher

[00:13:36.53] spk_0:
than your baseline.

[00:13:38.54] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. Because the

[00:13:43.75] spk_0:
tests that I’m talking about in the test

[00:13:45.31] spk_1:
will go through. It’s like

[00:13:46.44] spk_0:
these are tests that you do one at a time. I’m not like

[00:13:48.64] spk_1:
here’s 50 things

[00:13:49.62] spk_0:
you can test and let’s do them all at once.

[00:13:51.65] spk_1:
Because if you think about if you

[00:13:53.03] spk_0:
change that button, if you

[00:13:54.08] spk_1:
change it to say give

[00:13:55.37] spk_0:
now instead of donate now and

[00:13:57.07] spk_1:
it goes to your landing page. But you’ve

[00:13:58.64] spk_0:
also changed an image

[00:14:00.23] spk_1:
or headline or something on the

[00:14:02.54] spk_0:
landing page, then we don’t know if

[00:14:03.10] spk_1:
you’ve got more donations

[00:14:04.08] spk_0:
because you change something on your landing page or if

[00:14:06.55] spk_1:
you change something on that button that got them to the landing page. So

[00:14:10.47] spk_0:
you know the, the need

[00:14:11.79] spk_1:
to put together kind of a testing

[00:14:13.17] spk_0:
roadmap um,

[00:14:14.35] spk_1:
would be something that you would want to do for your organization and be like here

[00:14:17.76] spk_0:
and it takes time

[00:14:18.74] spk_1:
because you can only test

[00:14:19.78] spk_0:
one thing at a time. So it’s like

[00:14:20.87] spk_1:
here’s what we’re going to test

[00:14:22.07] spk_0:
in this calendar year and then whether it’s

[00:14:24.97] spk_1:
bi weekly, weekly,

[00:14:26.41] spk_0:
monthly, whatever it is, you know, having that plan laid out the

[00:14:29.73] spk_1:
to learn

[00:14:30.52] spk_0:
because the whole point of testing is like we want to learn,

[00:14:32.75] spk_1:
we want to raise more

[00:14:33.59] spk_0:
money for

[00:14:34.88] spk_1:
less cost

[00:14:35.65] spk_0:
of, of a transaction to obtain that donation and we

[00:14:39.13] spk_1:
want to learn more creative

[00:14:40.54] spk_0:
works. How many hits do we need?

[00:14:42.93] spk_1:
What’s a, what’s a

[00:14:44.24] spk_0:
sample size that

[00:14:45.20] spk_1:
we can rely on

[00:14:47.04] spk_0:
uh,

[00:14:47.69] spk_1:
to draw conclusions from?

[00:14:49.84] spk_0:
Yeah, that’s actually a really good question.

[00:14:52.72] spk_1:
Um, and I

[00:14:53.53] spk_0:
don’t, I don’t have like an answer

[00:14:55.01] spk_1:
that other than the

[00:14:55.97] spk_0:
generic. It depends.

[00:14:57.49] spk_1:
You know, I think

[00:14:58.69] spk_0:
if you’re a smaller nonprofit

[00:15:00.45] spk_1:
that doesn’t

[00:15:01.89] spk_0:
get a lot of traffic to your homepage in this case, then I mean

[00:15:06.04] spk_1:
where it could take

[00:15:07.08] spk_0:
you months to get enough traffic, you know, which is

[00:15:09.83] spk_1:
kind of like the sad thing about

[00:15:11.44] spk_0:
a nonprofit that doesn’t get a

[00:15:12.55] spk_1:
lot of traffic is when will,

[00:15:14.09] spk_0:
you know, we’ve, we have enough data to learn something. You

[00:15:17.83] spk_1:
know, I think it’s quicker to

[00:15:19.08] spk_0:
learn like with like

[00:15:20.11] spk_1:
advertising where you can actually have a budget and it will

[00:15:22.88] spk_0:
kind of force impressions

[00:15:24.16] spk_1:
to your website.

[00:15:25.25] spk_0:
Um, in that case, like

[00:15:26.78] spk_1:
I usually like to have,

[00:15:28.54] spk_0:
I mean at least a few 1000 clicks. Uh, so

[00:15:31.45] spk_1:
we kind of have enough data to make

[00:15:33.33] spk_0:
a decision.

[00:15:34.27] spk_1:
Uh, with the

[00:15:35.33] spk_0:
website, I mean going by that, I mean there’s, there’s some small

[00:15:39.98] spk_1:
nonprofits that may not get a

[00:15:41.99] spk_0:
1000 visits to their website in

[00:15:44.71] spk_1:
half a year or a whole year.

[00:15:46.38] spk_0:
You know? Um,

[00:15:47.58] spk_1:
in which case maybe

[00:15:48.65] spk_0:
you want to test something else

[00:15:49.82] spk_1:
1st? Maybe when you’re

[00:15:50.78] spk_0:
prioritizing exactly exactly. It’s

[00:15:56.07] spk_1:
like, where? Which

[00:15:57.17] spk_0:
I think, And I

[00:15:57.93] spk_1:
didn’t really think about this

[00:15:58.96] spk_0:
when I put it together. But

[00:16:00.14] spk_1:
that’s actually a really good question. Because when you look at all the things

[00:16:03.04] spk_0:
that you can test with your

[00:16:04.08] spk_1:
nonprofit, it’s like, what makes the

[00:16:05.89] spk_0:
most sense to test? Like where do

[00:16:07.48] spk_1:
we have the most data? Where are we getting the most

[00:16:09.60] spk_0:
traction? Maybe it’s a social

[00:16:10.80] spk_1:
media post. Maybe we have a good

[00:16:12.25] spk_0:
audience on social media.

[00:16:13.75] spk_1:
So, let’s test

[00:16:14.95] spk_0:
some of our posts

[00:16:15.76] spk_1:
there because

[00:16:16.98] spk_0:
we know we have a bigger sample

[00:16:18.41] spk_1:
size that we can work

[00:16:20.84] spk_0:
with. Okay. All right.

[00:16:21.40] spk_1:
Well, so your host

[00:16:23.74] spk_0:
is uh, chosen to start

[00:16:24.62] spk_1:
with the homepage

[00:16:25.72] spk_0:
because it’s ubiquitous. Everybody has one.

[00:16:27.98] spk_1:
But with the

[00:16:29.06] spk_0:
caveat that it may not be the right place for you to start your testing.

[00:16:32.63] spk_1:
If you have if

[00:16:33.92] spk_0:
you don’t have a lot of traffic to your homepage. Alright,

[00:16:36.02] spk_1:
let’s stick with the homepage. You got another, you

[00:16:40.24] spk_0:
got another one or two ideas. The homepage, and then we’ll move on. Yeah. Some other

[00:16:41.27] spk_1:
Ideas for the homepage. one

[00:16:44.54] spk_0:
would be, um,

[00:16:45.28] spk_1:
the, like the light box.

[00:16:46.53] spk_0:
So when you come to a website and

[00:16:48.89] spk_1:
people call

[00:16:50.06] spk_0:
them light boxes, they call them pop ups,

[00:16:52.17] spk_1:
Interstitial,

[00:16:53.66] spk_0:
you know, there’s different names for them. Kind of the common name. Yeah. That’s

[00:16:57.06] spk_1:
the more technical. Yeah. Which I never used

[00:17:02.89] spk_0:
Exactly. 100%, 100%. Because you say that like the, you know.

[00:17:13.34] spk_1:
Exactly, Yeah. The bigger words

[00:17:16.14] spk_0:
aren’t always better.

[00:17:17.14] spk_1:
And when I

[00:17:17.97] spk_0:
talked to my, my tech and

[00:17:19.67] spk_1:
my developer friends and they’re

[00:17:22.54] spk_0:
telling me what it is, I’m like,

[00:17:22.94] spk_1:
okay, how can I take what they

[00:17:24.31] spk_0:
said and translate it

[00:17:25.39] spk_1:
just to everyday common

[00:17:26.58] spk_0:
terms. And sometimes I’m like, I

[00:17:27.98] spk_1:
have no idea what you’re talking

[00:17:29.24] spk_0:
about,

[00:17:30.62] spk_1:
but we have drug in

[00:17:31.55] spk_0:
jail on nonprofit radio

[00:17:33.93] spk_1:
I don’t know if I have no idea what you’re

[00:17:35.25] spk_0:
talking about. You know, I’ll stop

[00:17:37.31] spk_1:
you. So if you had

[00:17:38.28] spk_0:
introduced it with

[00:17:39.57] spk_1:
traditional

[00:17:40.10] spk_0:
transitional, you know,

[00:17:41.59] spk_1:
yeah, whatever.

[00:17:45.54] spk_0:
But like, yeah, you see,

[00:17:46.23] spk_1:
I didn’t introduce,

[00:17:47.54] spk_0:
Yeah. Because you

[00:17:48.25] spk_1:
got to know who the audience is, right?

[00:17:50.11] spk_0:
So if this was

[00:17:51.11] spk_1:
like for a tech blog or

[00:17:52.33] spk_0:
something, I’m like the interstitial.

[00:17:53.97] spk_1:
But no, we’re talking about just non profit let’s start with the base like, you know, um,

[00:17:58.57] spk_0:
let’s just

[00:17:59.56] spk_1:
the basics here. So yeah,

[00:18:00.58] spk_0:
pop up a

[00:18:01.67] spk_1:
lightbox testing

[00:18:03.24] spk_0:
that. And I say tested and, and

[00:18:04.53] spk_1:
a lot of these things I’m saying test,

[00:18:06.28] spk_0:
but in my

[00:18:07.98] spk_1:
own way I’m saying

[00:18:14.64] spk_0:
do this, I’m not saying tested because like light boxes are so effective. Like pretty much no matter how you’re using if using them for email acquisition,

[00:18:17.96] spk_1:
if you’re using them to

[00:18:19.08] spk_0:
promote a campaign

[00:18:20.07] spk_1:
to increase your donations.

[00:18:21.53] spk_0:
Um, what I find

[00:18:23.35] spk_1:
though is a lot of

[00:18:24.32] spk_0:
nonprofits

[00:18:25.23] spk_1:
and I say that a lot, a lot

[00:18:26.49] spk_0:
of non profits, but

[00:18:27.40] spk_1:
it is true,

[00:18:28.61] spk_0:
um, that they’re

[00:18:32.54] spk_1:
like, well I don’t like pop ups, so I don’t want to use them, you know, But it’s not really about what you like because your

[00:18:35.06] spk_0:
donors and your website visitors

[00:18:36.84] spk_1:
probably don’t

[00:18:37.64] spk_0:
like a lot of pop ups

[00:18:38.63] spk_1:
either. But the data

[00:18:40.42] spk_0:
doesn’t lie. Like

[00:18:41.60] spk_1:
these things do work.

[00:18:42.84] spk_0:
And the reason they work is

[00:18:44.17] spk_1:
there’s nothing else that you

[00:18:45.26] spk_0:
can do on the homepage when that

[00:18:47.44] spk_1:
pop up comes on the screen other

[00:18:49.05] spk_0:
than click it and turn

[00:18:50.20] spk_1:
it off or do the

[00:18:51.90] spk_0:
action that it says there’s

[00:18:53.06] spk_1:
two choices. If someone goes straight to your

[00:18:56.24] spk_0:
website, they’ve

[00:18:56.39] spk_1:
got probably 20 different choices, click on your,

[00:18:58.92] spk_0:
contact us, click

[00:19:00.10] spk_1:
on an image,

[00:19:01.16] spk_0:
submit an email, click on any of your menu items. Like there’s so many different choices

[00:19:06.21] spk_1:
that you can make. But that pop up is like A or B. Do I

[00:19:09.66] spk_0:
close this and look at the website or do I hit the donate button or do I put my email in and submit it and now I’m a subscriber. So

[00:19:17.04] spk_1:
they’re extremely

[00:19:17.69] spk_0:
effective. Yeah, 100%. So

[00:19:22.73] spk_1:
yeah, so they

[00:19:24.13] spk_0:
work. But I’m saying tested because the thing is like, I’ve never seen it not work. So maybe your nonprofit is different and maybe you can test it with running with the campaign and if you didn’t raise any more money, which if that happens, like

[00:19:37.14] spk_1:
I’d love for those people to reach out

[00:19:39.44] spk_0:
to me because I want to

[00:19:39.94] spk_1:
know who those organizations are

[00:19:41.40] spk_0:
because it’s like,

[00:19:42.34] spk_1:
well I’ve never heard of that but

[00:19:44.12] spk_0:
here’s maybe some other

[00:21:16.84] spk_1:
things that you can strike. It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Their I. T. Solution is I. T. Infra. In a box. It’s budget friendly. It’s holistic. It’s the buffet of I. T. Solutions because you pick what you need and you leave the rest you needn’t hire them for all the services that they can do. They’ve got this I. T. Infra in a box for you to choose from like overall I. T. Assessment whether you want to implement multifactor authentication which a lot of people are saying is a very good idea. We’ve had guests saying exactly that um there might be other security for your site for your devices those mobile devices that are in people’s homes. Now cost analysis help desk. Do you need help that way with tech with like tech support and there’s more in the I. T. In for in a box you choose what’s right for your current I. T. Status. What’s right for your budget? Yeah leave the rest behind fourth dimension technologies tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Now back to many ways to test your digital fundraising with jeremy hazelwood. There are variables within the pop

[00:21:18.78] spk_0:
up that you can test how

[00:21:20.68] spk_1:
long a delay

[00:21:21.65] spk_0:
how long is someone on your homepage before it before

[00:21:23.93] spk_1:
it pops up?

[00:21:25.14] spk_0:
Of course what’s the text that’s in it again.

[00:21:28.40] spk_1:
What’s the button that’s

[00:21:29.43] spk_0:
in it. You have to have a button labeled that’s in it,

[00:21:32.14] spk_1:
Right.

[00:21:34.14] spk_0:
Yeah. What’s the offer?

[00:21:35.26] spk_1:
You know? So it could be

[00:21:36.35] spk_0:
$10 equals this or

[00:21:37.95] spk_1:
$50 equals that.

[00:21:39.17] spk_0:
So yeah, there’s

[00:21:40.14] spk_1:
probably a whole other

[00:21:41.73] spk_0:
15 different tests

[00:21:43.11] spk_1:
that you can run just within that. But let’s

[00:21:45.17] spk_0:
start at the basics. Okay. Give us one more for the homepage.

[00:21:49.74] spk_1:
Yeah. One more for the home page. And this is

[00:21:51.37] spk_0:
really simple. But um what

[00:21:53.54] spk_1:
about a donate button at the bottom of your

[00:21:55.59] spk_0:
page? Um And the reason that I say

[00:21:58.00] spk_1:
that is when people scroll

[00:21:59.98] spk_0:
pasture

[00:22:00.81] spk_1:
donate button, if your

[00:22:01.73] spk_0:
menu isn’t like what they call a

[00:22:03.09] spk_1:
sticky menu meaning when you scroll that top menu stays there

[00:22:06.11] spk_0:
and the donate button is

[00:22:07.05] spk_1:
always there or your

[00:22:07.94] spk_0:
menu is always there.

[00:22:09.29] spk_1:
Um If you don’t have that

[00:22:11.04] spk_0:
then you’re

[00:22:11.69] spk_1:
scrolling and that donate has come off

[00:22:13.45] spk_0:
of of the homepage off the

[00:22:15.66] spk_1:
top. So as you scroll down, you’re reading about who we are, what we do, why we do

[00:22:19.51] spk_0:
it. Um It’s just kind of a

[00:22:20.99] spk_1:
natural, here’s the next step,

[00:22:22.65] spk_0:
you know, donate.

[00:22:23.86] spk_1:
Um So it’s

[00:22:24.93] spk_0:
just right in the user flow. The user doesn’t

[00:22:26.55] spk_1:
have to scroll back up

[00:22:27.70] spk_0:
and find the donate or click the donate or

[00:22:30.68] spk_1:
even if they didn’t

[00:22:31.74] spk_0:
like if they kind of psychological or mentally

[00:22:34.20] spk_1:
blocked out that donate button when they came to your

[00:22:36.37] spk_0:
page? Is there

[00:22:37.43] spk_1:
scrolling through? Its in

[00:22:38.43] spk_0:
the natural progression

[00:22:39.60] spk_1:
of how they’re reading your

[00:22:40.44] spk_0:
page and that donate button is right there at the bottom. So

[00:22:43.67] spk_1:
um test that

[00:22:44.70] spk_0:
out, see if it’s something that you’re able to get more donations throughout the month. Um

[00:22:49.62] spk_1:
I don’t this is

[00:22:50.90] spk_0:
not something where you’re gonna earn like a ridiculous amount of conversions or donations

[00:22:55.94] spk_1:
From but even if you have like five

[00:23:08.34] spk_0:
more donations a month because you put a button at the bottom of your page, like wouldn’t that be worth the the 10 minutes it takes to put the button on your site And I think it would be, let’s go to the donation page. Okay cool. So donation and let’s say I’m looking at my my list over here. Okay, so donation

[00:23:17.47] spk_1:
page, one of the things that’s

[00:23:19.00] spk_0:
important to um

[00:23:20.42] spk_1:
a number of donors

[00:23:21.90] spk_0:
is is my donation secure and I don’t think it’s as much of a concern now as it

[00:23:27.06] spk_1:
was maybe even five

[00:23:31.14] spk_0:
years ago but there’s still people that are leery too uh do transactions online.

[00:23:33.12] spk_1:
Um We’re with

[00:23:33.97] spk_0:
the nonprofit. It’s like well I don’t know this nonprofit is going to take care of my data and hopefully your nonprofit is like your donation page should be the H. T. T. P. S. Meaning that it’s a secure page

[00:23:46.12] spk_1:
anyways

[00:23:46.87] spk_0:
but just putting some kind of

[00:23:48.83] spk_1:
Burbage

[00:23:50.34] spk_0:
or a visual indication that it is safe transaction

[00:23:55.19] spk_1:
on your website. So it could be

[00:23:56.44] spk_0:
something as simple as saying your transaction is secure like ssl security or putting like an image of a lock saying your transaction is secured. So doing that versus not having any language in there at all about a secure

[00:24:10.37] spk_1:
transaction.

[00:24:32.24] spk_0:
You can make a difference in someone going ahead and clicking that submit button on the donate because they could get as far as just putting all their information in. But they’re still kind of on the fence like, you know, if they’re nervous about giving online or giving because they don’t see any language that says their donation is secure because I’ve even experienced this to my house like myself personally, there’s some websites

[00:24:33.24] spk_1:
I’m not as

[00:24:36.94] spk_0:
familiar with and if I don’t see that language, then I

[00:24:37.58] spk_1:
may not actually

[00:24:38.55] spk_0:
include. I may not actually purchase whatever it is I’m purchasing and I’m not even talking about nonprofits. I’m talking about more like online retail. Um, so it gives the donor confidence in what they’re doing. So that’s something that you can test having that language on there versus just excluding it. Um, and seeing if

[00:24:55.04] spk_1:
that makes a difference in

[00:24:58.14] spk_0:
your conversion rates and you know, folks might say well, but people could look at the address bar and they can see if it’s https and, and lots of browsers have a lock when it is a secure site. I don’t know if all browsers, I use Safari

[00:25:12.79] spk_1:
predominantly. So

[00:25:13.69] spk_0:
I don’t know if all browsers do that, but, but

[00:25:15.73] spk_1:
even if they do,

[00:25:20.64] spk_0:
you know, think of older folks who are not so savvy they don’t know to look for https.

[00:25:22.05] spk_1:
So

[00:26:02.44] spk_0:
if you don’t, you know, what does it cost to put a sentence in with a little lock picture, it says, you know, it’s, it’s secured, encrypted on both ends, right? With 2 56 bit ssl technology or something, you know, something legitimate. I’m not saying make it up, but yeah, I remember you’re not doing it right. You know, I’m not, Yeah. Now this is the fraud how to test the fraud component of your donation. You don’t have to test for fraud. You don’t have to test fraud. Just don’t do that, don’t do it, you know? But if you’re, if yes, put put something in that’s reassuring to folks, especially older folks who may not know to look at the address bar. Right. Yeah. Alright. Alright. What else, what else for the donation pages? Um, one thing that I’ve seen more

[00:26:12.93] spk_1:
recently in the past

[00:26:39.54] spk_0:
Maybe 2-3 years and I want to say that there might even be specific, um, Tech companies that process donations for nonprofits and I can’t tell you who they are because I’m not sure which one’s doing and which ones don’t. Um, but highlighting like a certain gift that might say most popular gifts. So if you have like a $25 gift and $50 or 200 whatever that, you know procession of gift handles is There might be one

[00:26:40.24] spk_1:
that’s highlighted.

[00:26:41.34] spk_0:
Um, and it says most popular, but what it does and it’s

[00:26:44.91] spk_1:
usually not the lowest

[00:27:23.64] spk_0:
One because I might go to a site like I’m gonna give them $25, but then when I get there it has this $50 and it’s highlighted and it says most popular and so now there’s this social pressure to be like, well that’s the most popular. Like I don’t want to give less than what it is. So I guess I’m gonna give $50 instead of $25. Um So again, it’s, it’s, that’s kind of like a marketing trick if you will, but it does work. Um and you know, whether it’s the most popular or not, I mean again, that’s when you get into the ethics behind it, like, you know, um, you don’t necessarily have to say most popular, you could say, you know more

[00:27:24.31] spk_1:
impact or the

[00:27:25.12] spk_0:
most impact or something like that. There’s ways that you can word it, but

[00:27:28.99] spk_1:
the whole point is you’re

[00:27:29.88] spk_0:
drawing attention to a specific gift amount. Um that’s

[00:27:33.07] spk_1:
probably more reasonable. It’s not like you’re high

[00:27:35.46] spk_0:
like 500

[00:27:36.29] spk_1:
dollar gift, but it’s not

[00:27:37.37] spk_0:
Like you’re 10 20

[00:27:38.36] spk_1:
$5 gift either.

[00:27:39.60] spk_0:
Um, So

[00:27:42.24] spk_1:
what I found is that when you, when you do

[00:27:42.78] spk_0:
use some kind of language and highlight one particular giving level that it does result

[00:27:47.32] spk_1:
in higher conversions.

[00:27:48.53] spk_0:
Um, and again, this is my ash

[00:27:50.42] spk_1:
tricks with everything

[00:27:51.94] spk_0:
we’re calling it a test because this is what I’ve seen

[00:27:54.67] spk_1:
with nonprofits that I’ve worked

[00:27:55.86] spk_0:
with and research that I’ve done. But you have to test

[00:27:58.85] spk_1:
and see if this is the case

[00:27:59.82] spk_0:
for your non profit as well.

[00:28:01.44] spk_1:
That’s a good one. Like

[00:28:03.24] spk_0:
that average gift most

[00:28:04.85] spk_1:
popular gift. Most

[00:28:06.16] spk_0:
impactful.

[00:28:07.03] spk_1:
Alright. What else you got? Yeah.

[00:28:09.13] spk_0:
And the

[00:28:09.67] spk_1:
other one I have is kind of in the

[00:28:10.72] spk_0:
same vein as this and

[00:28:11.87] spk_1:
it’s really like your

[00:28:12.65] spk_0:
donation handles and your impact. Um

[00:28:15.59] spk_1:
So if you’re like an

[00:28:17.94] spk_0:
example of if

[00:28:18.09] spk_1:
you’re a nonprofit that does a few different things

[00:28:19.91] spk_0:
like for example, maybe like a rescue

[00:28:21.55] spk_1:
mission, like they do

[00:28:22.56] spk_0:
housing, they do food, they may do

[00:28:25.11] spk_1:
adult rehab

[00:28:26.98] spk_0:
kinds of programs. Um, so you can like test and

[00:28:30.76] spk_1:
there’s a lot to test in

[00:28:31.84] spk_0:
just these three different areas. You can test dollar amounts

[00:28:34.85] spk_1:
for these. So if you want to just look at housing,

[00:28:37.62] spk_0:
You can say, you know, $30 equals X. nights

[00:28:40.49] spk_1:
Of shelter, $60

[00:28:42.25] spk_0:
equals X nights. 100 equals

[00:28:43.71] spk_1:
X nights. You could

[00:28:44.83] spk_0:
test these against each other

[00:28:49.04] spk_1:
and have all of the gift channels at like $50, but $50 will help do

[00:28:50.12] spk_0:
X nights of shelter.

[00:28:51.43] spk_1:
$50 will help

[00:28:52.59] spk_0:
by X amount of

[00:28:53.40] spk_1:
Meals or $50 to

[00:28:55.04] spk_0:
send X amount

[00:28:56.02] spk_1:
of adults through rehab.

[00:28:57.55] spk_0:
And that way you learn about

[00:28:58.73] spk_1:
what your donors are more interested in. Um,

[00:29:01.69] spk_0:
so there’s ways that you can learn

[00:29:06.84] spk_1:
About that either way with, with that example, you’ll still get $50. But we, we test because we also want

[00:29:09.64] spk_0:
to learn more

[00:29:09.93] spk_1:
about our donors and more about what

[00:29:11.28] spk_0:
works. So if people

[00:29:12.24] spk_1:
respond better to a food offer versus the housing offer,

[00:29:15.62] spk_0:
then that might help us

[00:29:16.68] spk_1:
create a campaign,

[00:29:18.04] spk_0:
you know,

[00:29:18.98] spk_1:
in the calendar year at

[00:29:19.96] spk_0:
some point. That’s more around

[00:29:21.24] spk_1:
food. Um, and taking what

[00:29:23.00] spk_0:
we learned from this test.

[00:29:24.45] spk_1:
Um, so that’s one

[00:29:38.84] spk_0:
thing an NtC guest, uh, and he said they tested whether Children who are sick or Children who are hospitalized is has a greater impact. And

[00:29:41.68] spk_1:
intuitively you would think it would be the Children who

[00:29:43.54] spk_0:
are hospitalized

[00:29:44.63] spk_1:
because they’re the sickest of the among

[00:29:46.42] spk_0:
the sick. But

[00:29:47.56] spk_1:
turned out not to be

[00:29:48.19] spk_0:
true. They were getting more click throughs and more donations when

[00:29:51.52] spk_1:
they highlighted Children who

[00:29:52.66] spk_0:
were sick

[00:29:53.87] spk_1:
versus

[00:29:54.50] spk_0:
hospitalized.

[00:29:55.64] spk_1:
Intuition is

[00:29:57.83] spk_0:
not always correct. That’s why

[00:29:59.01] spk_1:
we test. Another

[00:30:00.05] spk_0:
reason, you know, like you said earlier, it doesn’t matter what

[00:30:03.25] spk_1:
you, the ceo

[00:30:04.88] spk_0:
or you, the chief fundraiser prefer. It matters what

[00:30:07.81] spk_1:
your donors

[00:30:09.08] spk_0:
and potential donors prefer.

[00:30:10.70] spk_1:
So you know, you

[00:30:12.54] spk_0:
have to ignore your intuition.

[00:30:13.90] spk_1:
You have to ignore your own

[00:30:15.94] spk_0:
preferences and do what Jeremy is saying and

[00:31:41.74] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. I’m doubling down on the redox who can you share non profit radio with, please think about colleagues, friends, folks who work for nonprofits serve on boards of nonprofits. Maybe they’re even avid volunteers, it’s a possibility these folks will learn from nonprofit radio the same as you are, share the share the knowledge, share the good, non profit radio vibe, share the pleasure, share, what else is there? Um, double the enjoyment? No, well you could double, you can triple the enjoyment. So please think about who you can share. non profit radio with, connect them with me, you can connect them with one of my social posts. Uh, connect them to tony-martignetti dot com share this show this episode however you can do it. I’d be grateful. Who can you share? non profit radio with thank you. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for many ways to test your digital fundraising. I do like most of my work is with

[00:31:43.39] spk_0:
non province, but I do some, I have some clients that are in the commercial

[00:31:46.87] spk_1:
world and they were

[00:31:47.79] spk_0:
running a

[00:31:48.56] spk_1:
facebook ad recently and they provided me with copy and I was looking at it and I was like, oh, this is terrible, this is not. And

[00:31:55.12] spk_0:
usually if I see something that is

[00:31:57.28] spk_1:
like, I don’t think it’s going to work like I’ll say, hey, what if we say this instead of that? And even with

[00:32:03.14] spk_0:
that? I’m like, what if

[00:32:03.40] spk_1:
we change, it’s like, well we want to try to run this first and just see, I’m like, all right and I thought it was

[00:32:07.87] spk_0:
going to Bomb and it actually

[00:32:08.95] spk_1:
did really good

[00:32:09.83] spk_0:
despite what

[00:32:11.20] spk_1:
I thought was going to work. Um, so that’s why it’s like I’m saying

[00:32:15.12] spk_0:
these things and in

[00:32:16.10] spk_1:
general, like you’ll see in the majority of cases, what we’re talking about, there will be a positive impact. Um, but these are not guaranteed. I’m not saying like, here are all the things that you should do if you want

[00:32:25.16] spk_0:
your nonprofit to succeed,

[00:32:26.47] spk_1:
what you need to do to succeed is

[00:32:28.27] spk_0:
to test and then

[00:32:29.34] spk_1:
find out what works. But those things like, let’s give

[00:32:31.73] spk_0:
some ideas. Like

[00:32:32.67] spk_1:
we just don’t be stagnant. If we have the same website, the same emails,

[00:32:36.21] spk_0:
the same everything

[00:32:37.20] spk_1:
Over a 12-month period. We have learned nothing about what we need to do to better serve our

[00:32:41.12] spk_0:
donors and and

[00:32:42.38] spk_1:
really better

[00:32:46.74] spk_0:
enable the services that we have because if we’re not learning how we

[00:32:47.14] spk_1:
can better serve our donors and how we can

[00:32:49.14] spk_0:
generate more money for nonprofit

[00:32:51.01] spk_1:
and still take care of our

[00:32:51.97] spk_0:
donors, then we’re doing a disservice down

[00:32:53.89] spk_1:
the road for the people

[00:33:09.54] spk_0:
or animals or whatever environment, whatever our nonprofit is serving. We’re doing that in other realms. We’re making sure we have programs that are appealing to donors, making sure we have events that are appealing to donors. We make sure we have fundraisers who are appealing to donors, right. Your staff is turning your donors off. That’s bad. You’re gonna, you’re gonna remove the people from the fundraising role. So, you know, in

[00:33:20.67] spk_1:
your digital and your digital

[00:33:21.73] spk_0:
marketing and fundraising as well.

[00:33:23.17] spk_1:
You want to appeal

[00:33:24.48] spk_0:
to your donors and your potential donors, you’re doing it in other places.

[00:33:28.24] spk_1:
We’re here to. Alright, let’s continue with the

[00:33:32.34] spk_0:
donation page ideas. Okay.

[00:33:32.95] spk_1:
Um, other donation page ideas.

[00:33:34.93] spk_0:
And this is gonna

[00:33:36.45] spk_1:
be my bad recommendation of tests, but I’m gonna throw it out there anyway, because I think it’s probably not going to

[00:33:42.17] spk_0:
work, but I’m

[00:33:43.09] spk_1:
curious to see if it will still work. Um, and that is testing an image versus a video on your donation page. Um, and for the very savvy fundraisers

[00:33:53.24] spk_0:
that are

[00:33:53.53] spk_1:
watching or listening to

[00:33:54.50] spk_0:
this, they were probably

[00:33:55.61] spk_1:
going to discredit me all over the

[00:33:56.97] spk_0:
place and say that Jeremy doesn’t

[00:33:59.20] spk_1:
know what he’s talking about. Um,

[00:34:00.93] spk_0:
but several

[00:34:09.54] spk_1:
years ago when you had a video on your, your donation page and I think maybe it’s because maybe a more a newer medium, you could tell the story of, you know, why we need the gift and be this heartwarming story and you’d actually see the gifts go up. Um, what

[00:34:16.83] spk_0:
I’ve seen over time

[00:34:17.69] spk_1:
now is that

[00:34:18.83] spk_0:
the images

[00:34:19.78] spk_1:
seem to be more effective

[00:34:20.87] spk_0:
than a video. And the reason that we’re

[00:34:23.35] spk_1:
suspecting that happened

[00:34:24.44] spk_0:
just because

[00:34:27.54] spk_1:
when people hit your donation page, You’re now giving them a video to watch, which maybe 30 seconds to minutes. I don’t know however long it is. But you’re now asking them to watch this video and command the attention

[00:34:36.94] spk_0:
and then

[00:34:37.63] spk_1:
fill out a form after that. So you’re kind of asking the donors to do too

[00:34:41.99] spk_0:
many things when they get

[00:34:43.05] spk_1:
your donation page, it is a distraction because they can’t do a donation

[00:34:46.61] spk_0:
page. Most

[00:34:47.78] spk_1:
likely they’re ready to make a

[00:34:48.69] spk_0:
donation. Yes,

[00:34:50.11] spk_1:
exactly. Don’t distract them from that purpose.

[00:34:53.23] spk_0:
Right? Because now there’s another action

[00:34:54.94] spk_1:
you’re giving them watch the

[00:34:56.19] spk_0:
right watch the video,

[00:34:57.63] spk_1:
but you’re saying

[00:35:00.04] spk_0:
test it, Why?

[00:35:00.74] spk_1:
Why? Why do you believe

[00:35:02.16] spk_0:
that so that people don’t think this jeremy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Yeah. Well the reason that I’m kind of

[00:35:07.24] spk_1:
slick throwing this in here is for the

[00:35:08.89] spk_0:
people who have the

[00:35:09.81] spk_1:
video still on their page.

[00:35:11.55] spk_0:
So if that’s

[00:35:12.79] spk_1:
you like test it

[00:35:14.13] spk_0:
with an image on there instead

[00:35:15.59] spk_1:
of the video

[00:35:16.41] spk_0:
and see if

[00:35:17.50] spk_1:
your donations will go

[00:35:18.58] spk_0:
up a little bit. But I’m bringing this in here to recommend it as

[00:35:22.06] spk_1:
a test really to draw

[00:35:23.12] spk_0:
attention to it because there are still some

[00:35:25.36] spk_1:
organizations that

[00:35:26.68] spk_0:
are testing

[00:35:27.64] spk_1:
or not testing, but that have a video on their donation page. And I think if I don’t

[00:35:32.51] spk_0:
address it, then I’m not really bringing attention to that,

[00:35:35.69] spk_1:
that this is an issue. And,

[00:35:37.81] spk_0:
but what,

[00:35:38.78] spk_1:
what I’d also be curious is the people do that do have the nonprofits

[00:35:42.03] spk_0:
that do have a video on their

[00:35:43.10] spk_1:
page. Um,

[00:35:44.64] spk_0:
is that

[00:35:45.18] spk_1:
still working for them and how will, you know if it’s still working if you don’t test that against an image

[00:35:49.48] spk_0:
and if they tested against an

[00:35:50.61] spk_1:
image and the video is still really generating a higher conversion rate

[00:35:55.59] spk_0:
then then I’m

[00:35:56.45] spk_1:
wrong and I’m okay with that. Um I can only go by the data that I see and the research that I’ve done to

[00:36:02.90] spk_0:
say that

[00:36:04.00] spk_1:
was the best practice.

[00:36:05.27] spk_0:
But now not so

[00:36:06.10] spk_1:
much. But if you’re still stuck in that best practice,

[00:36:08.77] spk_0:
it might be time

[00:36:09.71] spk_1:
to test out of that.

[00:36:13.23] spk_0:
If you have neither are you better? Starting

[00:36:14.46] spk_1:
with an image and testing that

[00:36:16.43] spk_0:
and then trying

[00:36:17.96] spk_1:
a video and testing that

[00:36:19.42] spk_0:
in place of the image. Mm hmm.

[00:36:21.39] spk_1:
No. Yeah.

[00:36:22.44] spk_0:
And that that’s

[00:36:23.31] spk_1:
actually an interesting question to if you have neither.

[00:36:25.72] spk_0:
I would test the

[00:36:27.08] spk_1:
neither versus an

[00:36:28.51] spk_0:
image. Well, you’ve got that you have your baseline.

[00:36:31.43] spk_1:
You know what neither

[00:36:32.88] spk_0:
has been doing for

[00:36:33.67] spk_1:
you over however months

[00:36:35.58] spk_0:
years. Okay.

[00:36:36.73] spk_1:
So

[00:36:37.27] spk_0:
now you want to do

[00:36:38.31] spk_1:
an adequate

[00:36:39.29] spk_0:
test with enough

[00:36:40.00] spk_1:
clicks

[00:36:41.17] spk_0:
to testing your advice. It

[00:36:44.04] spk_1:
sounds like your advice would be testing

[00:36:45.16] spk_0:
image first

[00:36:46.62] spk_1:
because typically

[00:36:49.23] spk_0:
images pulled better videos,

[00:36:50.62] spk_1:
correct, correct.

[00:36:51.87] spk_0:
Because I’m not asking

[00:36:52.95] spk_1:
you to look at an image. I’m asking you to watch a video, but the image is just there to,

[00:36:58.16] spk_0:
it should have the same

[00:36:59.36] spk_1:
look and feel and

[00:37:00.12] spk_0:
reinforce the sentiment

[00:37:01.72] spk_1:
of what

[00:37:02.24] spk_0:
that donation pages. So

[00:37:04.04] spk_1:
going back to like a rescue mission like it’s going to be an image of

[00:37:08.11] spk_0:
probably someone

[00:37:09.03] spk_1:
receiving services, whether they’re um receiving housing or food or something like that because it

[00:37:14.13] spk_0:
reinforces

[00:37:15.25] spk_1:
what you’re giving to help out

[00:37:17.47] spk_0:
or giving to

[00:37:19.43] spk_1:
eradicate. Mhm.

[00:37:20.63] spk_0:
You

[00:37:20.75] spk_1:
got one more for the donation page. Um Let’s see. I know I was looking at

[00:37:28.62] spk_0:
this is I mean it’s in the same vein

[00:37:30.89] spk_1:
because a lot of these are like really nit picky. But even like testing the hero image

[00:37:34.74] spk_0:
for example,

[00:37:35.73] spk_1:
because we talked about testing

[00:37:36.85] spk_0:
an image versus the

[00:37:37.69] spk_1:
video. If you’re already doing an image, I wouldn’t

[00:37:40.51] spk_0:
test that against video. If you’re

[00:37:42.06] spk_1:
doing a video, I’d test that against the image. But if you have an image, I would test that

[00:37:46.46] spk_0:
against another

[00:37:47.78] spk_1:
image. Um using this rescue mission scenario. If you

[00:37:52.00] spk_0:
test a feeding

[00:38:04.12] spk_1:
offer. So maybe it’s a a man that is homeless and he’s receiving food. Maybe the next image that you test is maybe uh this gentleman um in the

[00:38:04.42] spk_0:
housing he’s sitting on his bed

[00:38:06.00] spk_1:
and so you actually see that what you’re giving is

[00:38:09.17] spk_0:
subconsciously tied

[00:38:10.13] spk_1:
to providing the shelter

[00:38:11.26] spk_0:
versus providing the

[00:38:12.30] spk_1:
food like someone in a cafeteria

[00:38:14.80] spk_0:
that’s eating a meal.

[00:38:24.02] spk_1:
Um So testing different images. If you’re testing like um cancer research or something like that, maybe it’s your showing a cancer patient, which I believe would be more effective than showing the actual research facility. Um But I’m sure that there’s cancer research nonprofits that are showing the

[00:38:32.55] spk_0:
facility on the donation

[00:38:33.81] spk_1:
page and not the

[00:38:34.97] spk_0:
end recipient

[00:38:36.16] spk_1:
who’s the beneficiary

[00:38:37.59] spk_0:
of that research.

[00:38:38.97] spk_1:
Um, so

[00:38:40.11] spk_0:
bringing attention to that

[00:38:41.52] spk_1:
is like, let’s test these images

[00:38:43.20] spk_0:
and see which

[00:38:44.50] spk_1:
one would increase the conversion rates for our

[00:38:47.22] spk_0:
heart donation

[00:38:48.92] spk_1:
page. Okay.

[00:38:50.02] spk_0:
I mean, I

[00:38:50.28] spk_1:
want to flush out something that you

[00:38:51.36] spk_0:
just said sort of in passing. I want to make sure we’re giving people the right advice. You

[00:38:56.45] spk_1:
said, If you have an

[00:38:57.29] spk_0:
image, don’t

[00:38:58.76] spk_1:
test that against the

[00:38:59.53] spk_0:
video, but if you have a video test that

[00:39:04.42] spk_1:
against an image, I would,

[00:39:05.09] spk_0:
that’s what I would say. Yes.

[00:39:07.09] spk_1:
I

[00:39:09.52] spk_0:
say that. Um,

[00:39:10.61] spk_1:
I think also

[00:39:11.46] spk_0:
non province. If they

[00:39:12.57] spk_1:
got the idea to say, oh, we’ve never tested a video. Like

[00:39:16.01] spk_0:
I know he doesn’t recommend it, but let’s

[00:39:17.93] spk_1:
just see if it works then have at it. I wouldn’t recommend it. Um,

[00:39:23.42] spk_0:
so yeah, you

[00:39:24.27] spk_1:
are correct. If you

[00:39:25.28] spk_0:
have an image

[00:39:26.30] spk_1:
tested against the

[00:39:26.96] spk_0:
video, uh, sorry.

[00:39:28.48] spk_1:
If you have a video tested against an image

[00:39:30.64] spk_0:
image. Yeah.

[00:39:31.69] spk_1:
Let’s test it against another image.

[00:39:44.92] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Let’s move on to email. That’s, that seems ubiquitous. Everybody uses email most likely. Right. Right. Reading my notes. You’re reading

[00:39:51.94] spk_1:
my

[00:39:52.05] spk_0:
notes. Everything you said

[00:40:02.28] spk_1:
is great. And there’s

[00:40:03.56] spk_0:
basics of these,

[00:40:04.52] spk_1:
you know, time of day, day of week. Um,

[00:40:06.64] spk_0:
taking a step back though. Taking a step

[00:40:09.08] spk_1:
back. Um,

[00:40:10.13] spk_0:
when you test email, it’s more important

[00:40:13.35] spk_1:
in my opinion,

[00:40:14.16] spk_0:
like to test, like

[00:40:15.23] spk_1:
what they call, like

[00:40:16.12] spk_0:
the envelope, what’s on

[00:40:17.19] spk_1:
the outside before you actually

[00:40:18.52] spk_0:
test anything within the email. Um, so people have to open it before they can see your email. So to me, the most

[00:40:26.07] spk_1:
important thing is like, what can

[00:40:30.11] spk_0:
we test before people click into that email to get them to open the email? And those would be things like time

[00:40:34.17] spk_1:
of day and day of week. You know, that, that’s,

[00:40:36.20] spk_0:
that’s a twofer

[00:40:37.10] spk_1:
right there. There’s a time of day,

[00:40:54.71] spk_0:
there’s a day of week. So testing different times of day with the exact same emails, same subject line, same pre header, same everything. We’re just testing the time of day. Is that the text you see like some people call it teaser text, text you see in your, in your inbox before you’ve opened the message, correct? Yes.

[00:41:00.36] spk_1:
So you have like your

[00:41:01.55] spk_0:
subject line

[00:41:02.68] spk_1:
and then below that, like if you’re looking on your

[00:41:04.56] spk_0:
phone or even on your desktop Yeah, you’ll see a little bit of text under it

[00:41:07.70] spk_1:
and and that’s called your pre

[00:41:12.01] spk_0:
header. Yes. Um, so you know, I

[00:41:12.53] spk_1:
would look at testing that the

[00:41:13.72] spk_0:
basics time of day to day a week.

[00:41:15.71] spk_1:
You mentioned

[00:41:16.67] spk_0:
one like the sender

[00:41:17.75] spk_1:
name.

[00:41:18.81] spk_0:
So if you’re sending it and it’s like your organization’s name is the center,

[00:41:23.19] spk_1:
which is probably how

[00:41:24.31] spk_0:
most nonprofits send it and there’s nothing

[00:41:26.25] spk_1:
wrong with that. Um,

[00:41:27.51] spk_0:
what if we tested it using a person’s name. Like maybe it’s

[00:41:30.74] spk_1:
the executive

[00:41:31.91] spk_0:
director or ceo of a

[00:41:33.48] spk_1:
nonprofit. Um,

[00:41:34.98] spk_0:
the only thing that I would kind of

[00:41:36.03] spk_1:
caution with that

[00:41:37.31] spk_0:
is

[00:41:38.02] spk_1:
if you tested that

[00:41:40.31] spk_0:
one time, you’ll likely

[00:41:41.25] spk_1:
see a bump because people

[00:41:42.50] spk_0:
aren’t used to seeing it

[00:41:43.52] spk_1:
from that person. And

[00:41:44.63] spk_0:
if they don’t know that person’s

[00:41:45.90] spk_1:
name or even if they do, they’re like, oh, who is this? And

[00:41:48.00] spk_0:
they’ll click on it just because they’re not sure who it’s from.

[00:41:50.57] spk_1:
So I think if

[00:41:51.81] spk_0:
you only tested once you’re probably going to say, oh, it came that we changed the sender name so we’re gonna

[00:41:57.89] spk_1:
always go with the sender

[00:41:59.51] spk_0:
name and that, that may prove

[00:42:00.40] spk_1:
effective for the short

[00:42:01.40] spk_0:
term. You can probably send a

[00:42:02.41] spk_1:
few of them that way and

[00:42:04.13] spk_0:
it’ll be effective, but kind of baselining it over time.

[00:42:07.16] spk_1:
Like I, I don’t know which one will be

[00:42:08.63] spk_0:
more effective for you. I mean,

[00:42:10.18] spk_1:
and I honestly don’t have seen mixed

[00:42:11.95] spk_0:
results on that. Um,

[00:42:13.35] spk_1:
so that is something

[00:42:14.22] spk_0:
that you run multiple tests on over time.

[00:42:16.94] spk_1:
Not just like a one time we’ve made our

[00:42:27.20] spk_0:
decision Ceo or executive director after the person’s name. Yeah. I’m like putting their, not just their name but their title on right. Comma Ceo or comma executive director. That might, you know, that that seems worth testing to me. Yeah, might open, it might get a higher open rate was writing. Okay. Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:42.68] spk_1:
And that would,

[00:42:44.80] spk_0:
um, like that’s almost like a second

[00:42:46.21] spk_1:
level senator name

[00:42:47.26] spk_0:
because just starting out sender

[00:42:48.46] spk_1:
name. Um,

[00:42:49.61] spk_0:
I mean if you’re even the nonprofit’s

[00:42:51.90] spk_1:
name, if you have

[00:42:52.58] spk_0:
the in front of your nonprofit,

[00:42:54.01] spk_1:
like the

[00:42:54.43] spk_0:
Salvation Army, you

[00:42:55.98] spk_1:
know, you can’t test it against the

[00:42:57.04] spk_0:
Salvation Army, you know,

[00:42:58.64] spk_1:
but that would be a further

[00:42:59.95] spk_0:
test. That’s deeper into the center

[00:43:01.27] spk_1:
name. But yeah, the actual

[00:43:02.79] spk_0:
name of the executive director could

[00:43:04.51] spk_1:
be one test versus the

[00:43:06.32] spk_0:
person’s name. Comma

[00:43:08.05] spk_1:
Ceo or

[00:43:08.66] spk_0:
executive director. That

[00:43:11.10] spk_1:
that could be interesting as well. Trying to participate in the

[00:43:12.73] spk_0:
activity here in the conversation.

[00:43:14.33] spk_1:
Trying to hold

[00:43:15.99] spk_0:
up, hold, trying to hold up my side of the conversation. Oh yeah,

[00:43:18.71] spk_1:
no, you’re doing a great job. Yeah.

[00:43:23.25] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:43:25.70] spk_1:
one thing that I think is, um, a good feature of the test is like if you

[00:43:27.67] spk_0:
are, if your

[00:43:28.49] spk_1:
email includes a

[00:43:30.50] spk_0:
video in it

[00:43:31.60] spk_1:
or a blog

[00:43:32.47] spk_0:
post. I mean you

[00:43:33.47] spk_1:
can’t have a video in

[00:43:34.48] spk_0:
an email, but it’s about maybe a video on your website. Um, and there’s a thumbnail

[00:43:38.58] spk_1:
of the video on your email or a blog post.

[00:43:41.05] spk_0:
Then I would

[00:43:41.68] spk_1:
include, um, like the word video, like in all caps and then like a sub colon or not slowed colon,

[00:43:48.12] spk_0:
like semi colon. And then whatever

[00:43:51.10] spk_1:
the video is, colon.

[00:43:51.57] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m all over the place

[00:43:53.10] spk_1:
with my

[00:43:53.50] spk_0:
grandma, right? That’s what you want to call it. You

[00:43:56.09] spk_1:
know what I’m saying? Yeah.

[00:43:57.38] spk_0:
You’re smarter than me. So you

[00:43:58.58] spk_1:
don’t, you understand that? Yeah. It

[00:44:00.52] spk_0:
took me two tries for video

[00:44:04.22] spk_1:
in all caps, I

[00:44:04.92] spk_0:
see that a lot. Yeah, yeah

[00:44:08.27] spk_1:
or blog

[00:44:09.05] spk_0:
because if you don’t have

[00:44:10.27] spk_1:
video and you just have like a subject line that’s maybe about the video or watch this or something like that. Like

[00:44:16.17] spk_0:
that’s one thing and it may

[00:44:17.36] spk_1:
work for you.

[00:44:18.39] spk_0:
But I think when you have

[00:44:19.33] spk_1:
like whatever that piece of

[00:44:20.44] spk_0:
content is and

[00:44:21.52] spk_1:
call it out and call attention to it now, it’s like, oh, there’s a video in here. Um and I see that first and foremost, I’m not reading like a title, I’m not reading a subject line

[00:44:30.50] spk_0:
per se.

[00:44:31.39] spk_1:
Um I know that when I open this, I’m going to see a video. I know when

[00:44:35.03] spk_0:
I open this, it’s going

[00:44:39.49] spk_1:
to be their blog post and and with this nonprofit like I like their blogs, you know, or I’m interested to see

[00:44:41.92] spk_0:
what they’re talking

[00:44:42.77] spk_1:
about and and so I

[00:44:43.96] spk_0:
know it sets my

[00:44:45.11] spk_1:
expectation

[00:44:46.16] spk_0:
as an email

[00:44:46.91] spk_1:
subscriber of what that

[00:44:48.12] spk_0:
content is.

[00:44:49.10] spk_1:
Um So I go in

[00:44:50.17] spk_0:
there and I’ll open it

[00:44:51.91] spk_1:
up. So I think that’s one thing too that

[00:44:54.39] spk_0:
um could help to sit

[00:44:56.04] spk_1:
down and see if it works for you. Give

[00:44:57.53] spk_0:
Us one more email.

[00:44:59.09] spk_1:
one more would be that pre header that we we we defined

[00:45:02.59] spk_0:
a couple of minutes

[00:45:03.53] spk_1:
ago is testing the language with the pre

[00:45:05.90] spk_0:
header and with this

[00:45:07.10] spk_1:
uh the day and time would be the same. The subject line would be the same, but the pre

[00:45:11.72] spk_0:
header would be

[00:45:14.89] spk_1:
something different and it could be

[00:45:15.49] spk_0:
a call to action.

[00:45:16.54] spk_1:
Um I do recommend that whatever you have in your pre header um and I don’t know the exact

[00:45:21.38] spk_0:
character count

[00:45:22.33] spk_1:
off the top of my head but just make sure that

[00:45:24.60] spk_0:
people can read the

[00:45:25.55] spk_1:
whole pre header um

[00:45:26.93] spk_0:
from whatever

[00:45:28.63] spk_1:
device they’re looking at it on. Um Some, some people may say well

[00:45:34.19] spk_0:
if you don’t include

[00:45:35.09] spk_1:
all of it then it adds

[00:45:35.93] spk_0:
this Mystique and people

[00:45:37.13] spk_1:
will want to open it up to see what it says and

[00:45:39.70] spk_0:
I think there’s some

[00:45:40.72] spk_1:
value to that. Um And I think maybe you can test that as well, but I think in general um that pre editor people should be able to read all of that.

[00:45:48.25] spk_0:
But testing what

[00:45:49.22] spk_1:
that is, whether it’s a call to action or um

[00:45:52.09] spk_0:
if it’s a

[00:45:53.49] spk_1:
video for example, maybe you have the person’s name that’s

[00:45:56.96] spk_0:
in the video. You

[00:45:57.96] spk_1:
know, bob’s testimony about blah blah blah versus

[00:46:01.21] spk_0:
here’s an easter

[00:46:02.30] spk_1:
message from blah blah

[00:46:04.02] spk_0:
blah.

[00:46:08.18] spk_1:
Okay, how about the,

[00:46:10.58] spk_0:
well it’s either search engine marketing or facebook

[00:46:12.94] spk_1:
ads.

[00:46:14.38] spk_0:
I’m pretty down on facebook,

[00:46:15.73] spk_1:
but I guess people are still doing

[00:46:16.86] spk_0:
a lot of facebook ads so we’ll ignore the

[00:46:20.63] spk_1:
the the hosts. Uh

[00:46:22.49] spk_0:
Predilection against

[00:46:24.21] spk_1:
facebook and

[00:46:27.78] spk_0:
let’s talk about facebook ads. Yeah

[00:46:28.17] spk_1:
facebook ads let me pull up

[00:46:30.57] spk_0:
my list here

[00:46:31.51] spk_1:
because I had a lot to say about that

[00:46:33.91] spk_0:
and actually like

[00:46:34.64] spk_1:
facebook ads is like one of those things where there’s

[00:46:38.88] spk_0:
I mean I

[00:46:39.37] spk_1:
could probably do 50 tests with

[00:46:41.00] spk_0:
facebook ads. There’s so many different

[00:46:42.31] spk_1:
things that you can test. Um,

[00:46:44.18] spk_0:
but for the sake

[00:46:45.53] spk_1:
of like maybe time and and quality

[00:46:47.60] spk_0:
of continent, what we

[00:46:48.73] spk_1:
talked about here. One thing that I do want to

[00:46:51.06] spk_0:
put out their first and

[00:46:52.11] spk_1:
foremost is

[00:46:53.25] spk_0:
testing

[00:46:54.58] spk_1:
um, link short ners within the ad copy. Um, so let’s take a step back and talk about kind of the anatomy of a facebook ad. Um and what I’m gonna talk about is more like the news

[00:47:05.77] spk_0:
feed ads. So if

[00:47:06.99] spk_1:
you’re on a desktop or on your

[00:47:09.07] spk_0:
smartphone and

[00:47:10.58] spk_1:
you’re just scrolling

[00:47:11.17] spk_0:
and you’re seeing what your friends

[00:47:12.24] spk_1:
post and then there will be an ad, they’re just kind of in your newsfeed. So newsfeed

[00:47:15.98] spk_0:
add the

[00:47:16.78] spk_1:
anatomy of it is you have like um text, which will be like your description and then you have the image below that and then you have a headline below that with a button that you can make me a

[00:47:26.77] spk_0:
donate button.

[00:47:30.88] spk_1:
Um, so one of the things that I would have nonprofits

[00:47:31.94] spk_0:
tests first and

[00:47:32.71] spk_1:
foremost is with the net description, which is that first

[00:47:35.56] spk_0:
block of content

[00:47:36.66] spk_1:
above the image where you’re writing that includes your ad copy

[00:47:41.08] spk_0:
is

[00:47:41.48] spk_1:
that you include a call to action with a

[00:47:44.26] spk_0:
link shorter at the

[00:47:45.43] spk_1:
end of your copy. Um for example, um,

[00:47:49.61] spk_0:
March is such

[00:47:50.84] spk_1:
and such awareness month here at

[00:47:52.44] spk_0:
X. Nonprofit.

[00:47:53.53] spk_1:
You know, we really believe X.

[00:47:54.75] spk_0:
Y. And Z. You

[00:47:55.88] spk_1:
can make a difference today. Um uh

[00:47:58.88] spk_0:
by donating

[00:48:02.37] spk_1:
$50. I don’t know, it’s very general um text or what

[00:48:03.57] spk_0:
I’m saying. Uh

[00:48:04.62] spk_1:
and then under that you have like make your gift here and then you have like a link shortening which

[00:48:09.67] spk_0:
would be like Bentley, B. I.

[00:48:10.90] spk_1:
T. Dot L. Y. You know, you can take a U. R. L. From your donation page, go to Bentley and it

[00:48:17.14] spk_0:
will compress it

[00:48:18.61] spk_1:
into less characters for your U. R.

[00:48:21.21] spk_0:
L. But

[00:48:22.48] spk_1:
include that within your um the description copy of your facebook ad. Um and the reason that I recommend that is

[00:48:29.75] spk_0:
Number one I’ve seen at work,

[00:48:31.10] spk_1:
you get a higher conversion rate but just thinking about the flow of a facebook ad. Like you’re reading the

[00:48:36.50] spk_0:
copy and

[00:48:43.57] spk_1:
let’s talk about the flow. If you don’t include this piece, you’re reading the copy and then you see the image or video and then you see a call to action

[00:48:46.10] spk_0:
and then over to the right

[00:48:47.14] spk_1:
of that call to action is a

[00:48:48.09] spk_0:
button. So

[00:48:49.27] spk_1:
what we’re doing with this

[00:48:50.07] spk_0:
essentially is bringing

[00:48:51.13] spk_1:
that call to action

[00:48:52.77] spk_0:
up

[00:48:53.11] spk_1:
quicker. Um, and eliminating

[00:48:55.39] spk_0:
some distractions to

[00:48:56.35] spk_1:
a degree. So I’m reading

[00:48:57.52] spk_0:
this wonderful

[00:48:58.51] spk_1:
ad copy that was written by this nonprofit

[00:49:00.75] spk_0:
and then they’re telling me

[00:49:01.75] spk_1:
what that next step is right here and there

[00:49:03.94] spk_0:
as opposed to

[00:49:04.77] spk_1:
like okay I have to watch this video or taking this

[00:49:07.40] spk_0:
image and I have to read this headline

[00:49:09.28] spk_1:
and then I have to click on this button

[00:49:11.67] spk_0:
so you’re you’re

[00:49:11.93] spk_1:
making that decision making process happen quicker. Um because

[00:49:16.12] spk_0:
by the time I read your

[00:49:16.91] spk_1:
copy I made tune out your image and the call to action in the button and I’m scrolling to the

[00:49:20.97] spk_0:
next piece of content

[00:49:22.51] spk_1:
so it just

[00:49:23.15] spk_0:
inserts that call to

[00:49:24.07] spk_1:
action a little bit earlier.

[00:49:25.28] spk_0:
So I would say

[00:49:30.47] spk_1:
test that out, see if that works. How about um what else? Facebook.

[00:49:32.00] spk_0:
Okay yep. So what else um

[00:49:33.84] spk_1:
I would test image overlays. So what I mean by that is like a

[00:49:38.77] spk_0:
text overlay.

[00:49:39.68] spk_1:
Um It used to be where with facebook you can only have a certain

[00:49:42.72] spk_0:
percent of

[00:49:43.74] spk_1:
your image and a image

[00:49:45.97] spk_0:
at be covered

[00:49:46.65] spk_1:
with text, but now you can put text all

[00:49:48.98] spk_0:
over it if you want to.

[00:49:50.24] spk_1:
So what I would recommend is like

[00:49:52.03] spk_0:
testing the image by

[00:49:53.48] spk_1:
itself. So let’s

[00:49:54.59] spk_0:
say it’s uh animal

[00:49:56.40] spk_1:
shelter and it’s just this picture

[00:49:58.22] spk_0:
of any animal, it could

[00:50:00.10] spk_1:
be a happy animal sat

[00:50:01.31] spk_0:
animal or whatever,

[00:50:02.48] spk_1:
but then you have a b version of the add

[00:50:04.84] spk_0:
and everything else is the same except the

[00:50:06.63] spk_1:
image. But

[00:50:10.86] spk_0:
over the image you actually have some text overlay that’s saying you know

[00:50:11.46] spk_1:
$50

[00:50:12.58] spk_0:
Or $10 a month

[00:50:13.93] spk_1:
can help save X.

[00:50:15.31] spk_0:
Animals X. Amount of animals. Um But

[00:50:18.54] spk_1:
seeing if that makes a difference.

[00:50:19.81] spk_0:
And honestly I’ve seen where in some cases it has, in some cases it has, you know, so that this is certainly one of those

[00:50:26.79] spk_1:
things where I’m like, I’ve

[00:50:27.82] spk_0:
usually see this happen, but I’ve seen mixed results with this. So I think non probably have to see what works for them.

[00:50:33.86] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:50:42.16] spk_0:
leave us with one more facebook made. You make your top one of what’s left. Yeah. What’s left is testing your audiences. So

[00:50:46.11] spk_1:
not even what the people

[00:50:47.35] spk_0:
see, but behind the scenes and facebook, whenever you’re

[00:50:50.21] spk_1:
building the ads,

[00:51:09.16] spk_0:
your audiences are so important. And I would test against your audiences and even within that I would break them into a few different audiences and won, I would take my email file of my donors and I would upload them into facebook and target them with ads separately from everybody else. Um, and then I would also target by

[00:51:11.58] spk_1:
age, I would have everything

[00:51:16.96] spk_0:
be the same except I would target different age groups because some

[00:51:17.28] spk_1:
nonprofits say,

[00:51:18.37] spk_0:
hey, we want to

[00:51:19.29] spk_1:
target ages 18

[00:51:20.53] spk_0:
and up because everybody, if they have money we want them to give. But that’s not always being

[00:51:25.01] spk_1:
a good steward of your ad

[00:51:36.56] spk_0:
budgets. So tests like 50 year old plus and then test maybe 35 to 49 see which one of those ad groups has a higher conversion rate because a lot of times when I talk to non profits, they

[00:51:38.51] spk_1:
have no idea

[00:51:39.71] spk_0:
what the age group is of people that donate to them on facebook. So I’m like we can find this out if we test

[00:51:45.35] spk_1:
enough, we’ll know that this

[00:51:46.51] spk_0:
is the age group that has a higher propensity to donate. Um So those are ways that you

[00:51:50.33] spk_1:
can test the audiences on the back

[00:52:00.45] spk_0:
end of it, you mentioned earlier that you have 100 ways to test. Is that something you said? I think you said it was on your website. Um it is, it’s you have to be a member of fundraisers unite

[00:52:04.38] spk_1:
to have

[00:52:05.07] spk_0:
access to that. Yeah, but it is

[00:52:07.37] spk_1:
available but

[00:52:07.99] spk_0:
yeah, just throw it dot com after that. So fundraisers unite dot com. Um and this is an online community uh subscription program for digital fundraisers. So there’s a lot of templates and trainings

[00:52:20.57] spk_1:
and tip sheets and

[00:52:21.77] spk_0:
resources that they

[00:52:22.87] spk_1:
offer to my

[00:52:24.75] spk_0:
audience. Thank you very much, jeremy hazelwood

[00:52:59.75] spk_1:
digital fundraiser. Next week we’ll take a break from 22. NTC with Don Gatewood on mentoring. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored

[00:53:00.33] spk_0:
by turn to

[00:53:00.90] spk_1:
communications pr and content for

[00:53:03.30] spk_0:
nonprofits. Your story

[00:53:58.25] spk_1:
is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by 4th dimension Technologies IT Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez marc Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Steiner. Yes, thank you for that. Affirmation, scotty Be with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great. Mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for May 9, 2022: Using COPE To Keep Your Website Fresh

 

Katelyn Gerber & Rachel Kribbs: Using COPE To Keep Your Website Fresh
Create Once, Publish Everywhere. User friendly COPE workflows and principles will efficiently keep your website content up-to-date. Explaining how are Katelyn Gerber and Rachel Kribbs, both from FORM. (This is part of our coverage of the 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference, hosted by NTEN.)

 

 

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:58.54] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with a Nicaea if you nailed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Using Cope to keep your website fresh, create once published everywhere. User friendly cope workflows and principles will efficiently keep your website content up to date explaining how are Caitlin Gerber and Rachel cribs both from form. This is part of our coverage of the 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10 On Tony’s take two please share. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by 4th dimension technologies I thi infra in a box The affordable tech solution for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper here is using Cope to keep your website fresh. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 NTC. You know what that is The 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference. Our coverage continues with Caitlin Gerber and Rachel Cribs Caitlin is director of operations at form and Rachel cribs is account executive at form Caitlin Rachel Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:06.04] spk_1:
thank you. Thanks for having us. It’s

[00:02:10.84] spk_0:
a pleasure to have both of you. Your

[00:02:11.86] spk_1:
session

[00:02:21.54] spk_0:
topic is using Cope principles to keep your website fresh. Well we’ll get into what Cope is all about um Who wants to explain what Form is all

[00:02:58.14] spk_1:
about Caitlin? I can take that one Caitlin Caitlin has been here longer than I have, but I have the the the elevator speech down. So form is a we are a digital first creative group. Um and we only work with a non profit organization, so we are based in Cleveland Ohio, but we work with nonprofits in every corner of the sector um all over the country. And we, our mission is to help nonprofits connect with their patrons um and do more work and do it better and reach more people. We do that through website creation, we do print digital marketing campaigns, um Digital interactive. So anything digital first, we provide those services for non profit works. Um And I come from about 11 years of nonprofit admin before joining the team. So that’s kind of the perspective that I bring to the group.

[00:03:31.14] spk_0:
Alright, very concise. Thank you. You do have to have it down. Your right. Absolutely. All right. Um then Kaitlin, let’s go to you what what Cope Principles give us an overview of of Cope and and how this is valuable for nonprofits.

[00:04:03.34] spk_2:
Yeah, so it’s one of those acronyms that we can add to the acronym jar. So it stands for create once publish everywhere. And the whole idea is really to work smarter, not harder. Um So when you’re creating website content, you want to create it only one time, but show it in multiple different places. Um So it cuts down on kind of retyping the same things or having to keep different pages updated and keep track of all of that and really tries to simplify your workload um when it comes to creating your content on the web um and making it as easy for you to keep track of and keep updated on an ongoing basis,

[00:04:16.34] spk_0:
is it something different than just simple repurposing?

[00:04:33.84] spk_2:
So it really comes down to how your website is set up. So it’s kind of a whole ideology of how you enter content into your content management system for your website. Um So it is kind of a records based approach. Um So rather than creating individual pages and copy and pasting that content, um you really are only entering at one time um into a form and then your website is displaying that content in multiple different places, even though it only exists one place in your content management system.

[00:04:54.60] spk_0:
So

[00:04:56.34] spk_1:
yeah, the the

[00:04:57.67] spk_0:
more sophisticated than my simple minded repurpose,

[00:05:01.21] spk_1:
the end, the end result is that content is repurposed repurposed and there are all kinds of benefits to doing that. But the way to get it repurposed is a lot easier and more effective and efficient on the back end.

[00:05:14.54] spk_0:
Okay, so let’s stick with you Rachel, what did you talk in your summary of the session about Coppola workflows, what is this, what does this start to look like.

[00:06:51.04] spk_1:
So basically you’re ideally the content management system. So the, the thing that the nonprofit organization would see on the back end in order to publish information on the front end of their website. So your content management system, you know, examples of this are WordPress, it’s probably the most popular one. Um, Drew Apple Squarespace and Wix. These are all content management systems. So in the C. M. S, uh, there are a series of forms ideally so that you are entering information about certain types of content that may change frequently. Um We call this dynamic content like event listings, blog posts, news articles, these types of things that are going to change frequently. You would enter into a form fields, uh, you know, date, start time and time. When do I turn this off? What’s the body, what images do you want? Um, into this form based system in your CMS. And then you select where it’s displayed on the, on the front end to your users. So that’s why we call it a workflow. It’s really um about the cope refers to the system that the content creator is using to get this information out. Um sounds really dry and boring, but the end result means, I mean literally an exponential amount of time saved for nonprofit admins and having been a nonprofit admin. I understand, you know, time is of the essence and and also it avoids um, broken links, errors, typos because, you know, you’re entering all this really detailed information multiple times. Um but that’s why we call it a workflow because that’s really what it’s all about.

[00:07:17.74] spk_0:
And how does someone create this? How does someone create the document that is linked? That is part of your, your content management system that is then going to distribute this, how does this all get made? So for people who aren’t working for form or working with form, how do they implement

[00:08:03.24] spk_2:
this? So the first step is to really identify types of content on your site that work well with this type of workflow and what we mean by that are things that um typically have a similar format on your site. So Rachel mentioned things like events. Um so date based things are really great um because that allows uh, your system to automatically hide those things for you um when the date passes. Um, so date based type things are really good things like fundraising events, um, community events, if you’re an arts organization, um, things like exhibitions or performances, um, those are great types of content to consider using this form.

[00:08:07.34] spk_1:
Um

[00:08:28.54] spk_2:
also things like blogs, news, um kind of the usual suspects there in terms of content that’s created in a kind of standardized way, um and things like your program services, location, staff, um, things that you can easily imagine, you know, I can enter all this information into a form because it all kind of follows the same format. Um so the first step is really identifying what types of these things do you have on your website? Um Almost every nonprofit has events, um Almost everyone has staph or programs, things like that. And so really uh

[00:08:44.42] spk_1:
taking

[00:10:04.04] spk_2:
stock of what types of content you have on your site. Um and then really mapping kind of how those relate to each other. So on your program page you might want to also display news about that program. You might want to also display who you should get in touch with if you have questions about that program um or events that relate to that program and really kind of creating this map of kind of how your content can and should relate to each other. Um and then really assessing, you know, are you already entering this content in this way or are you entering it one page at a time copying and pasting it over um and kind of taking stock of that. And then really it comes down to kind of how savvy you as an individual are um with content management systems. Uh it might be a thing where you feel really comfortable in WordPress and installing plug ins and you can get these things set up yourself, um more often you’re probably going to be working with whoever you use um to work on your website, um and saying, hey, these are the types of things that we would like to modify to be cope friendly. Um and web developers will know what that means. Um they will understand that, that terminology, um they will understand what you mean by hey we want to make this a plug in um and kind of working with them to update that. Um The best time to consider this really is if you’re doing a website redesign you can certainly update your existing website, but it’s definitely easiest if you’re thinking about embarking on building a new website in the next year or two years, if that’s in the plan, um start taking stock of these types of content and mapping them to each other. So that way when you are

[00:10:30.51] spk_1:
selecting

[00:10:43.54] spk_2:
a vendor or working with your existing vendor from scratch, um you have your arms with its information and arms with these requests. Um so that way it can be built right kind of from the, from the start. Um and really just make sure that you’re maintaining that. So if you as an organization do decide to add a blog, for example, um make sure that when that’s added to your site added in a friendly way. Um so that way you’re kind of future proofing your content. Um but really the first step is to take stock, where are you, where are you at now? Um and then you can decide how you want to proceed

[00:11:09.14] spk_1:
from there.

[00:12:22.34] spk_0:
It’s time for a break, turn to communications, the content creation and the content management, you see now how they work together. Turn to can help you make the content right? The content, deliver it and deliver it to the audiences that you’re trying to reach, then you also need to manage it right? You want to keep it public on your own sites, so you’re getting it out through media channels, that’s the ideal. And that’s what turn to does. But then you got your own sites to that’s the earned versus the owned media. So where you own the site, whether it’s a blog or uh, maybe it’s a podcast or, you know, just your website, it’s all got to be managed. So it’s findable. The content creation, content management turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to using cope to keep your website fresh, Rachel anything you want to add to the to that.

[00:12:47.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I think just the the short, the The point is, uh you mostly have to work within your content management system, involve your web developer. WordPress, scruple those are really popular content management systems. Um there’s another one called final site that a lot of K-12 schools use these are all they all support cope. Um I know on WordPress and ripple, you could do some googling online to figure out exactly how to do that. But it does get technical and as Caitlyn mentioned relying on third party plug ins. But if you’re not the developers, you mentioned doing that kind of content mapping. Thinking about how your website, visitors might want to see information or what’s going to be most informative to them is an important step you can take even if you don’t have that technical skill.

[00:13:17.04] spk_0:
Okay. I mean it’s imagine it’s hard for me to imagine a nonprofit not working with form, but I like to have listeners understand, you know, how they can, how they can proceed on their own. Alright, so

[00:13:23.67] spk_1:
any

[00:13:36.44] spk_0:
web developer, anybody works in WordPress or drew people is gonna know or you mentioned square to, you know, is gonna know what cope Cope is and Cope friendly principles are okay, Okay. Yeah, this

[00:14:00.94] spk_2:
is in a brand new concept. I think that the term was first coined about a decade ago. Um, and it’s just gained popularity because as Rachel mentioned, non profit admins are busy people, they have a million things that they have to do. Um, and entering the same content for their website six times is not among the priority list. Um, so this, this is really kind of taken taken off and become a very familiar term in the industry

[00:14:43.44] spk_0:
and I was concerned when, when I selected this because on nonprofit radio have jargon jail, but you both have been very good about explaining terms, you know, con CMS, not just throwing out CMS content management system Rachel, you were very clear about that. So, but, but I’m uh, I’m very sensitive, you know, I’m, I’m, my, my antennae are up but you’ve been very good so far. So no jargon jail transgressions. You’re, you’re succeeding. Lots of people trying, you’re, you’re succeeding. Um, you talked a little too about building consensus and and buy in around new new workflows that I get that I guess are gonna be cope, uh, helpful friendly. What does that, what does that look like trying to get like leadership by in what are we talking about there? Who don’t know who wants to take this?

[00:16:15.54] spk_1:
I can take this one Caitlin if that’s all right. Um, since I talked about this in the, in the, the webinar to really cope benefits. I mean, it sounds so dry and boring, right? Like if you go to leadership at the nonprofit and it’s not about like here. So I’m gonna bring in the next million dollar gift, It’s like, okay, please don’t bother me. But really, this not only benefits your organization and saves time. So there’s a clear, um, kind of business outcome. You can save a lot of resources and your folks can focus on more of that fundraising or helping their constituents by using this system. Um, but it has a huge benefits for the website, users to, So, okay, maybe this isn’t a direct, um, fundraising tactic, but if the end result is a more enjoyable user experience on your website, that really, really goes a long way. And I think nonprofits, um, like I said, having worked for several and just what I’ve observed, tend to think that if people are coming to my website, they care enough about my organization to find what they need. No matter how much digging it takes. And really that’s becoming less and less the case. If someone’s frustrated, confused, they can’t find something easily, You’re going to lose them, you may lose their support, they may lose interest in you. So we have to make sure that our website visitors are having a really positive experience. So in order to get buy in from the organization, those are sort of the two angles I take. This is good for us. This is good for our constituents. But

[00:16:21.67] spk_0:
before you start to get to buy it, why is it better for website visitors? What, what, what difference does it make for them?

[00:17:23.04] spk_1:
Yeah. So a couple of things, um, it makes your website more engaging. So let’s say you’re browsing a nonprofit that you’re, you’re not familiar with. And you see an interesting article, let’s say. Um, the first thing is maybe it links at the bottom two other articles from that bank of articles you have that are related to this topic. So they might see that and then go down this rabbit hole and it’s kind of how you get on like a Wikipedia rabbit hole, you start clicking on the links inside and going down these other things. So that’s kind of, the idea is you can have related information to the page that they’re on and it’s going to create a more engaging website experience. Um, we like to say it avoids dead ends where a website is, there’s clicking through, they get to a page and then there’s really no obvious place for them to go next. We don’t want that to happen. Um, it also makes it more informative. So as the example, Caitlyn mentioned, um, if someone is seeking out service of yours and they’re on your, your services page and they’re looking at something. Uh, if you have information from like your staff database pulled right into that page of like, here’s the person you contact you about questions, then it’s all right there. They don’t have to then go digging through your contact form trying to figure out who to get in touch with if they have a follow up question. Um, so it makes it more informative, more engaging. Um,

[00:17:53.54] spk_0:
more relevant. It sounds like a page has more relevant. You’re saying a page would have a contact person not just go to our general contact page and try to try to sort through. Yeah. Okay.

[00:18:37.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And the last thing I mentioned, the last thing I’ll mention about that too is we’ve seen nonprofits air on the side of not including this kind of information at all. So out of fear of having to make sure they remember to take down an event when it’s past or avoid having to manually update all of these things. They’ll just leave blogs off of their website. They’ll leave events off of their website and then that is really irrelevant. I mean, you know, that’s what people go to like find this up to date information. They want to see that you’re doing things they want to read about you. So the alternative is not a good one too. Just not include this kind of dynamic information on your website. Makes it stale. Um, not helpful. Not informative. No. That’s another reason

[00:18:59.24] spk_0:
that what you’re describing now is the tail wagging the dog. You’re, you’re, you’re unsophisticated content management regimen. Not, you’re not necessarily the system, but the way you’re using it is, uh, is preventing you from putting relevant content on your site. That’s, that’s antithetical to what the whole purpose of a content management system.

[00:19:06.74] spk_2:
And I think we’ve all been to nonprofit websites that

[00:19:11.14] spk_1:
still

[00:19:11.49] spk_2:
have their event from six months ago on the home page. And that, that doesn’t have a lot of trust with your organization. Just I

[00:19:20.03] spk_0:
think just a week old, you know, oh, this is coming up. Oh no, it was last

[00:19:29.74] spk_2:
night. No, never mind. Uh, yeah. And it just immediately creates like a, what’s going on over there. Right?

[00:22:46.04] spk_0:
Just write it all contributes. Like Rachel’s suggesting it all contributes to an overall feeling that a donor a potential donor has. You know, it’s just see something stale on the website. I mean, this is 2022, you know that shouldn’t We’re not in 1996 websites where you know everything is done by by single keystrokes anymore. It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Their I. T. Solution is I. T. Infra in a box. It’s budget friendly and holistic. It’s the it’s the buffet of I. T. Solutions because you take what you need and leave the rest behind. So as you’re browsing the buffet, walking through the line, you’ve got your tray sliding along on the on the silver rails. You can choose from I. T. Assessment. Yeah, I’d like a dish of that multi factor authentication comes in a small bowl just perfect. I’ll take one of those other security cost analysis help desk. Hmm that looks like a good dessert. I’ll take that along as well And there’s more in the buffet that you can choose from. So as you’re going along with your tray you choose what’s right for your I. T. Situation for your budget. Fourth dimension technologies. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Please share non profit radio I grew up with share share. That’s fair. Well not not exactly the sharing we’re talking about. That’s two brothers fighting over the same Tonka truck. They used to be metal back then but that’s a bit of a digression. non profit radio is it helping you? It’s your I I presume it is. Otherwise you wouldn’t be listening to me. So it’s helping you. Who else can it help that you know within your networks, your sphere of influence, somebody else who works at a nonprofit, somebody who works at your same non profit a board member, Maybe it’s a board member to your non profit you’d like them to have the savvy ideas, but but then you’re gonna give away your source of savvy ideas. So maybe that’s not such a good idea, board members and other nonprofits. Okay, so who do you know I’d be grateful if you would share the word of tony-martignetti non profit radio so that more folks can learn and benefit the way you are. Make it makes perfect sense. Right? So in that respect actually share share that’s fair is appropriate. So if you can share non profit radio with someone else. I would be grateful. Thanks very much. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got barely a butt load more time for using cope to keep your website fresh with Caitlin Gerber and Rachel cribs. All right, so I made you digress, Rachel we were talking about but I remember to go back, I I usually remember to go back to your your suffering a lackluster host but not not not untraceable, just lackluster. So you’re always talking about getting getting buy in on these uh on workflows adopting these new workflows

[00:23:04.54] spk_1:
you know

[00:23:05.85] spk_0:
to remind us to rationales good good for your constituents your website visitors, and then also good internally because you’re you’re saying exponential time savings,

[00:23:42.84] spk_1:
yes, it’s an exponential time saver. So hopefully the argument that this is really good for the people we are serving is enough. But if it’s not, you can also make the time saving argument. Um It also ensures it helps you ensure accessibility and a. D. A compliance um more efficiently on your website, which is, you know, usually that gets everyone’s attention. Um But again, that should be because it benefits your constituents, but this is because you can set up those forms in a way that, you know, the way that you’re putting the information in is always going to appear in an accessible way. Um Not only in terms of design aesthetic. So we’re talking about um you know, the type faces that you’re using some of the formatting things you can preset in this scope workflow. So every time it appears it’s meeting its compliant to that. Um But it also appeals to

[00:24:12.64] spk_0:
across your many pages. That’s another thing that it’s just a general again, just a general feeling of

[00:24:16.04] spk_1:
web

[00:24:16.39] spk_0:
web visitors, you know, that that’s a that looks like the headline on the other page was so much bigger and it was blue and this one is smaller and it’s red. Okay. And

[00:25:04.34] spk_1:
those design choices ideally should be made very carefully to make sure that it not only looks good but it’s it’s appealing to folks that may have different disabilities, visual impairments. Um even it even appeals to um neurodivergent learners so cope setting up cope on your website. This is kind of getting back to the benefit to the users so I promise I will get back to the organization. Um but it’s a good point is that it appeals to we say multiple browsing styles as I mentioned in the webinar. So you might you know Tony you might get two events on a certain web page by following a certain workflow that feels natural to you but Caitlin might find it differently and this kind of allows you to follow any of those

[00:25:08.20] spk_0:
pathways.

[00:25:09.64] spk_1:
You’re

[00:25:11.80] spk_0:
not doing it my way because I’m center. So if you’re not doing it my way,

[00:25:16.78] spk_2:
tony

[00:25:20.27] spk_0:
you’re shattering my reality, shattering my subjective reality. So please

[00:26:29.24] spk_1:
I would I would push back because Caitlin is like the most logical person I know, so I’m sure hers would be very direct but it appeals to that neuro diversity which again just gets back to um being more compliant and inclusive on your website which is going to to promote a sense of inclusivity of your brand, your organization. But um the last so that that A. D. A compliance is usually a strong case um to make with senior leadership and other members of your internal organization um and another big one is that it improves your search engine optimization results so um when folks are searching for different things on your website, if google suspects a sense of of structure to your content, um, it’s going to prioritize that in your S C. O. Um and also if you have the same piece of content, like a news article that pops up in multiple places, it’s also slightly more likely to appear, appear higher. So when people are asking, how can we improve our sc Oh, this is one really great way to be able to do that. So those are kind of a big the big benefits

[00:26:31.01] spk_0:
benefits the advantages. Okay, okay. Um you said it’s interesting if google senses a structure

[00:26:40.14] spk_1:
mm hmm,

[00:26:43.64] spk_0:
it can it can suss out a better organized versus less well

[00:26:47.41] spk_1:
organized

[00:26:48.74] spk_0:
web website.

[00:26:50.64] spk_1:
Google is essentially being google is very all knowing. Sorry, Caitlin, go ahead.

[00:27:34.34] spk_2:
No, it definitely, it definitely can. So it can tell if there are pages that are related to each other. So it is a bot that crawls around your website and if you’re making it easy for it to do that by relating things to each other, that makes sense. Um it is going to reward you for that. Um and as Rachel mentioned earlier, having things in the appropriate uh, aesthetics, but it is also kind of the underlying code, um, making sure you have a header on every page, making sure you have a description captions for photos relevant, links, things like that. Um it rewards that as well because it can tell that your content is broken up that it’s been thought through. Um, and it rewards those types of behaviors. Um, and so having a system that kind of enforces that for you. Um, really goes a long way. We’ve all seen pages that are kind of just walls of text with uh, you know, scattered headings and things like that. Um, google,

[00:27:57.54] spk_1:
I can tell

[00:27:57.97] spk_2:
that that is scattered. Um, and so you want to make sure things are structured as possible. Um, and using this workflow really goes a long way to achieving that structure that google is going to report.

[00:28:10.74] spk_1:
If you took away all the aesthetics from a website that’s designed this way, you would see a very thoughtfully, um, a very intentional like network and a web and that’s actually like internally how we design our sights as we start with those, those wire frames first and just these literal diagrams and so that’s kind of what google can see through versus like if you’re creating a website that reads more like a book of just like information, information, information, you want to think of it more as an interconnected web of information. And that’s, that’s what google is going to like better, that’s really what’s easier to browse from a user perspective, but kind of what Caitlin’s getting at with stu

[00:28:51.44] spk_0:
what else should we know

[00:28:52.25] spk_1:
about Cope,

[00:28:54.74] spk_0:
that you shared and don’t hold back on the nonprofit radio listeners, but

[00:28:59.38] spk_1:
what else

[00:28:59.67] spk_0:
did you share in your session?

[00:30:07.24] spk_1:
Um, I think that, I mean, what I would say again coming from the former non profit admin spaces don’t underestimate the importance of doing this kind of research when you’re coming up with a new web solution. Don’t just look for a website that is going to look really good, but it has to have some underlying structure make your job easier. Um, make your website visitors have a more enjoyable experience. It’s really, really, really critically important. And, and we think that, uh, lots of other people do too, that having a cope workflow and Cope systems is key to that. Um, we in, in other conversations Caitlin, I’ve had and you’ve maybe heard this before. Non profits are now calling their websites their digital front door, especially during covid. This is maybe the only way for one of the few ways we have to establish touchpoints with our constituents donors, you know, clients, patrons that were working with. Um, so I think that nonprofits should start investing the time in thinking as carefully about it as they do their brick and mortar organizations. Um, so, so Cope, we think is a really important part of that, of that structure

[00:30:12.24] spk_0:
Caitlyn. Can you remember any questions that you got that were significant?

[00:31:53.34] spk_2:
Yeah, I think, uh, people are always scared of how do I start like, okay, I want to do this. How do I even start doing this. Um, and I think not being afraid to just take that first step of just seeing where you are because you might be surprised, you might find that a lot of your content already is in this workflow and you’re doing a good job um and you might just need to make a few tweaks um so I think people hear this and think oh my God, I’m gonna have to start from scratch, um and if you’re using a common content management system, that’s probably not the case, um you’re probably already somewhat there. Um and so I think doing this assessment can really help people feel better um and feel more equipped with that knowledge. I think it sounds scary because it is an acronym and it is web development um and it can be this very technical thing. Um and so I think that where do I start is the question that we get the most. Um and it really is start with a scene where you’re at um and I think you’ll feel a lot better um and I think to uh you know, it’s working with the right people um so oftentimes uh find a partner that will work with you on this um and make your life easier and they’ll understand um so I think it’s all about finding those right partnerships um to kind of help bring this, bring this to life um but start somewhere that’s the biggest thing is don’t be intimidated by it, um don’t be scared of it because it’s technical um kind of take that first step and just see where you are.

[00:31:59.44] spk_0:
tony

[00:32:40.94] spk_1:
Can I add one other thing to that? Um, in terms of where to start, you know, start with one example, start with one place where you decided, okay, these two pieces of content relate, let’s have them appear on each other’s pages or connect in some way and the place to start might be um, you know, if you listen to, if you listen to your audiences or your constituents, maybe like what’s the question you’re always getting that you’re like, this is on the website. Why are people not finding it on the website? Maybe adopting a Cope mindset could be the solution to mitigating some of those questions and that might indicate where to start with setting up some of these structures and see how that works. So you don’t have to create this whole interconnected web all at one time. Maybe just start with one connection and build from there.

[00:32:57.34] spk_0:
Okay, excellent. Yeah, consistent with what Caitlin said, you know, don’t be intimidated its scope. You know, it’s cope, it’s it’s not, it’s not like, you know, some abstruse acronym create once, publish everywhere. It’s friendly. You can cope

[00:33:06.74] spk_1:
with popularized. We can cope with Cope, It was popularized by NPR what’s more friendly than NPR so we know that this is yeah, the about a decade ago, I think that’s where the term became popularized, um,

[00:33:17.07] spk_0:
executed it on their, to

[00:33:36.04] spk_1:
be honest with you. I’m not sure why it was popularized, but I know that it was kind of at a time when okay websites are becoming next level content creators have to start getting more savvy with how we’re pushing information out. Um, I think it had to do more with timing than this is necessarily something that they had adopted.

[00:33:46.94] spk_0:
That was like the 2008, If I have the timing right? You know, like making websites more sophisticated, much more user friendly thinking about the users who are coming and what they’re, what they’re flows are mapping, mapping their journeys through sites, things like that. All right,

[00:33:59.34] spk_1:
okay,

[00:34:01.84] spk_0:
wonderful. Thank you from both from Cleveland Ohio home of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,

[00:34:06.18] spk_2:
Caitlin

[00:34:10.44] spk_0:
Gerber Director of operations at form Rachel cribs account executive at form where what’s the what’s the form website you want to say it

[00:34:17.84] spk_1:
together ready? Just kidding. It’s

[00:34:21.36] spk_2:
the form groups dot

[00:35:43.74] spk_0:
com. The form group dot com. Okay Caitlin Rachel thank you very much. Pleasure and thank you for being with Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22. NTCC next week. More from 22. NTCC if you missed any part of this week’s show. I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Did my voice just cracked like I’m 14 Your story and by 4th dimension Technologies IT Infra in a box The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott. Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great. Mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for May 2, 2022: The Other Tony Martignetti

 

Tony Martignetti: The Other Tony Martignetti

Am I encroaching on him or is he encroaching on me? I think we can find peaceful coexistence. The other Tony Martignetti is the individual and team coach at Inspired Purpose Coaching and author of the book, “Climbing the Right Mountain.”

 

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[00:02:20.14] spk_0:
mm hmm Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. We’re welcoming a new second sponsor fourth dimension technologies. Thank you, thank you very much for joining us for d. So glad to have you and I’m glad you’re with, I’d be thrown into Blefary rhinitis if you swelled me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show. The other tony-martignetti am I encroaching on him or is he encroaching on me? I think we can find peaceful coexistence the other tony-martignetti is the individual and team coach at inspired purpose coaching and author of the book climbing the right mountain. We’re gonna have some fun today on tony state too, managing those who fear fundraising, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O. And by welcoming fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Just like 3D but they go deeper. What a pleasure. What great fun what you know, it’s just amazing to welcome tony-martignetti this tony-martignetti is the trusted advisor coach experience, creator, author, podcast, host and speaker, he’s chief inspiration officer of inspired purpose coaching and author of the book climbing the right mountain Navigating the journey to an inspired life. His company is at inspired purpose coach.com and he’s at Tony-Martignetti one. tony-martignetti welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:31.14] spk_1:
I am so thrilled to be here tony It’s a, it’s truly amazing that we’ve finally made this happen. Um and this conversation is long overdue

[00:03:01.54] spk_0:
indeed, I think I dropped the ball for a while, I had your book and then I didn’t get back to you and tell you that I got the book and I feel bad about that, but we’re here, you’re here. Um I, you know, I, I felt bad when I was introducing you, you you have to be at tony-martignetti one, I feel bad about that. I’m sorry, I’m sorry I grabbed tony-martignetti Where were you? Where were you? Six or eight? Yeah, I don’t know when I started on twitter, where you been? Where were you? Yeah,

[00:03:02.51] spk_1:
just a little bit slow to the uptake and you had to get there first. It’s all good

[00:03:07.14] spk_0:
if it wasn’t for

[00:03:08.16] spk_1:
you. You know, if you weren’t such a good guy, I wouldn’t, I would be more upset, but you know, we can coexist and I’m thrilled to uh, to share the name with you.

[00:04:13.14] spk_0:
We certainly can. Oh you’re sharing your name with me. Oh I see, I see how it is. Okay, okay, now you first came uh into my awareness my, on my radar because folks were confusing us like they would post on linkedin Thanks to at tony-martignetti for having me on, on the podcast. And the first time I ignored it and then it kept happening. So you have a lot of guests who are grateful and then I realized okay there, then I then somebody said the uh you know the fireside, I’m sorry, no, the virtual fireside uh uh podcast and that’s all right. There’s a, there’s another guy out there who, who has stolen my name. So I had to reach out of course, of course. So you’re, you’re in the, you’re in the boston area, you’re in boston proper or they’re just

[00:04:19.42] spk_1:
in the suburbs, so just south of the city. But I spent most of my time in boston and Cambridge area working in a number different companies there

[00:04:29.54] spk_0:
and neither one of us is related to the martignetti liquor empire in the boston area or the Anthony martignetti of Prince Spaghetti fame,

[00:04:38.74] spk_1:
yep, no royalties coming my way.

[00:04:57.64] spk_0:
No, no, I’m chronically unconnected. Um the now that the Prince Spaghetti is dating probably both of us a bit, you have to be, you probably have to be over 45 or 52. Remember Prince Spaghetti commercials? Of course Wednesday was Prince Spaghetti day and Prince Spaghetti, I don’t think they make it anymore, at least I don’t see it. I don’t see it on the shelves.

[00:05:06.84] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:05:22.24] spk_0:
tony brought them down, but Tony was the spokesman, he was the mother would be yelling out her boston window, Anthony Anthony martignetti and he would come running down little tony in fourth or fifth or sixth grade become running down the streets of boston, that was, that’s what I’m referring to or we’re referring to it, We’re talking about Prince Spaghetti.

[00:05:30.44] spk_1:
Yeah. In the classic north end of boston.

[00:05:52.24] spk_0:
Yes, that’s right in the north end of boston and then he would run up the steps to his mom’s apartment and she’d be in her house dress. The pasta pot is boiling and I think he came in with a bouquet of flowers or something to make up for being late for supper or something. I don’t, I think so. It’s good to meet you tony-martignetti

[00:05:55.44] spk_1:
here. It’s

[00:06:02.74] spk_0:
a little surreal. It’s interesting. Um so tell us about your, tell us about your coaching before we were gonna talk to someone about your book, but tell us about inspired purpose coaching please.

[00:06:31.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, so the first of all the coaching I do is something that it’s really my calling. It’s what I was called to do even though it took me a long time to get here. Um the the work I do is work with accomplished leaders and entrepreneurs um in all different types of industries who are feeling like there’s something missing. Um they’re feeling like they’re stuck and they want to find the connection to their inspired purpose, They want to lead with purpose and they want to find fulfillment in life and in work

[00:06:38.74] spk_0:
and these many industries include nonprofits. Do you have, have you coached or are you coaching focusing nonprofits?

[00:07:03.24] spk_1:
Yeah, nonprofits um you know, across many different tech organizations but from nonprofits for sure. I recently just got back from doing a training with a nonprofit organization in Ohio. Um, and it was really powerful to help them. Were there challenges.

[00:07:29.44] spk_0:
Alright, excellent. So, so the, The book, the book has universal appeal, but certainly, you know, the book is kind of, it’s personal and professional. I see it as more personal. Kind of see like 70, 30. I don’t know if that do you think I am? I am I being unfair to your book? Like I see it largely personal, but then it certainly has professional implications and, and ideas to, I don’t know, am I am I mischaracterizing? You can tell me, you can tell me if I’m messed up,

[00:07:33.27] spk_1:
I’ll be honest with you. I

[00:07:35.82] spk_0:
think, I think you’re absolutely

[00:08:21.34] spk_1:
Right. I think it’s more that 7030 because you know, the reality is you can’t separate the person from the leader in the organization. And I think there’s most of it has to do with how you’re showing up to life, not just how you’re showing up to work and definitely you want to make sure that we, you know, had that element of how are you showing up to work because it’s a big part of what we spend our time doing. We want to make sure that people think about what I want to do for the work that I’m doing, How am I leading my people if I’m leading people, um, there’s a lot of elements I tap into their, um, I think one of the big messages that I try to, to come across in the book is that it’s really about defining success on your own terms. Um and that it’s never too late to change the path you’re on.

[00:08:26.04] spk_0:
Yes. Success in your own terms,

[00:08:28.74] spk_1:
not the

[00:08:34.24] spk_0:
culture’s terms, not society’s terms, not your professions terms. Yeah,

[00:09:14.74] spk_1:
Yeah. And when I think it’s a great message, because when you think about, like, even as we think about non profit versus profit for profit organizations, oftentimes people think like, well I don’t want to work for a nonprofit, you know, that means that I’m not gonna make any money um or I’m not going to have an impact. Well, the reality is that it all depends on how you look at your role and it looks at how you craft your position. You know, you can do well and make enough money to live a good life. Um it doesn’t have to be an either or um you can do well and make a good living. Um it doesn’t have to be one or the other.

[00:09:30.54] spk_0:
Yes. Yes. And you make the point, we’ll, we’ll get a chance to flush it out, but you make the point that happiness doesn’t follow from success. Success flows from happiness.

[00:09:45.54] spk_1:
Yeah, Yeah. So choosing that path of like really wanting, you know, what is it that makes you happy to, you know, really understanding, you know, what’s going to bring life to your life um is important. I

[00:09:45.80] spk_0:
had plenty of time to read the book because I sat on it for a long time before before I remember to tell you that I got it. So I had plenty of time to go through it. Um All right, so you use this very interesting um I think clever metaphor of mountain

[00:10:00.99] spk_1:
climbing

[00:10:02.64] spk_0:
and it’s in the title of the book, explain, explain.

[00:10:11.54] spk_1:
Yeah well um I do enjoy climbing mountains in fact um when uh this summer I’m going to be climbing Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania. So

[00:10:17.68] spk_0:
yes you should be preparing for that right now, shouldn’t you?

[00:10:21.08] spk_1:
I am I am I am doing the preparations uh you know getting out hiking a lot and doing a lot of um just aerobic exercise because it just want to get you know used to the oxygen um at those different levels.

[00:10:35.84] spk_0:
How do you how do you train for the oxygen deprivation at however many tens? I don’t know how how is Kilimanjaro

[00:10:41.64] spk_1:
19,000

[00:10:42.72] spk_0:
19,000 ft? How do you train for that part?

[00:11:10.64] spk_1:
Um so you just have to continue to get out and do more hikes. I mean if I could get in, I’m not going to get up to 19,000 ft anywhere here locally. So I’m just doing a lot of different mountain climbs locally and what I’m trying to do is just get used to getting up to to elevation. Um more and more instead of staying at the consistent elevation all the time. So just you know getting used to it. It’s all it takes. You

[00:11:12.06] spk_0:
have to travel to you have to travel to some mountains to prepare for higher elevations.

[00:11:57.54] spk_1:
So the last mountain I traveled to was I went to Peru during the pandemic actually while I was finishing up my book which I’ll get into in a moment. Um I went to Machu Picchu in um in peru and that was the whole area of Cusco is actually at a pretty high altitude. I can’t remember the exact altitude of where you’re at above sea level there but it’s um you constantly have to be ready to have oxygen on your on hand in case you need it. But it’s just really about slowing down and breathing more intentionally. And um that’s part of the process is just getting used to that breathing slowly. Um And slowing down every step you take is intentional. So

[00:12:03.23] spk_0:
my goodness. When are you going to Tanzania

[00:12:06.38] spk_1:
in august so

[00:12:08.34] spk_0:
yeah

[00:12:09.09] spk_1:
it’s right around the corner.

[00:12:10.44] spk_0:
Good wishes. Good. I’m not gonna say good luck. You don’t really need luck but you know good wishes and your training and everything. I hope you stay healthy.

[00:12:16.81] spk_1:
What

[00:12:18.07] spk_0:
a feat.

[00:12:19.04] spk_1:
Yeah it’s gonna be amazing. I’ll keep you posted as to you know how it all turns out but

[00:12:22.66] spk_0:
okay you have you have a guide of course and you go with the team.

[00:12:27.72] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. Don’t

[00:12:29.06] spk_0:
climb alone. You make the point in the book, that’s part of your metaphors. Never you’re never climbing alone.

[00:14:37.84] spk_1:
Yes, that’s exactly it. And I think, you know, so just to come back to this idea of climbing, you know, I’ve always enjoyed climbing and one of the things that’s interesting is that there’s been some climbs that I’ve taken that are not so successful when you just go in without preparation, without having the right people alongside you and without having a map. Um I’ve literally done that when I was a teenager, but then you have these other clients where it’s more successful when you have that preparation, your partner, the right people and you see this this idea of like really knowing what you’re getting yourself into without really having everything all mapped out in terms of like specifics. Um but the preparation is key. So the whole idea about the book is climbing the right mountain is about really being on this journey to, you know, see the mountain as your career and the path you’re on and when you get to the top, are you going to be satisfied with what you’ve created for yourself? And often times, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of different leaders and myself included um gotten to the top of their mountain based on what they thought that they wanted and they realized it wasn’t what they wanted. The view is not what they expected and they’ve had to sacrifice a lot of things to get their, you know, their health, their well being, their time with family, friends. Um, and it’s unfortunate because you know, when you have that, that singular focus of like this is what I need to do to get to the top and then you get there and you feel like let down, um, you want to have a sense of what can I do now? And so, um, the book is really there for us to be able to think a different way. And if you’re still on the path and thinking yourself like, oh gosh, am I on the right path at all? There’s some thoughts around how can you stop, pause and take another look and see what else is possible? Am I really climbing on the right path for me right now? And sometimes it’s not about leaving your, your career. It’s not about, hey, you know, I should be leaving my job and go somewhere else. Sometimes just looking at your job from a different lens, just changing perspective a little bit,

[00:16:25.54] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, they do content creation and content management. Let’s focus on the management part. Your blog. Is it out of date? Have you got a resource page whether it’s your content or the content of others that you’re sharing? And is that thing that resource pages out of date? You’ve got resources from like 2018, even 20, years old, you’ve probably got more current content. Let’s get it up on the resource page, let’s get it up on the blog. Turn to can help you not only with the content creation, creating all these um communications, all these messages, but with the management also and keep that management current. You don’t want to blog, that’s even six months old, right, where the most recent stuff is six months old. No, you don’t want that turn to can help you turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o Now, back to the other tony-martignetti Although for you, it was a major and sudden job career change. You know, what, what did that, what did that before? You know, you can welcome to tell the story of, you know, the incident, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna beg, you know, I’m not gonna spoil it. But what, what was that feeling like for you that you objectively, I guess to outsiders had succeeded, but you still have this feeling of, of, of longing and emptiness.

[00:17:40.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s exactly you know, I love the way you put it there because that’s exactly how it felt. You know, I had, I had had outward success, people saw me as someone who was really doing well, I was working as a finance and strategy professional in the biotech industry. Um I had done a lot of successful things on the outside, but there was a sense of something missing. There was an emptiness inside and I know I’m not alone in this feeling. There’s a lot of people who feel this way in their navigation through their own path. But I got to this place where I was sitting in a boardroom and feeling like I don’t want to do this anymore. I was looking around the room and seeing a lot of people checked out, you know, looking at their cell phones and just listening to these leaders who are toxic in nature, they were more concerned about their own image and how they were showing up. And as I was looking around, I had this feeling and that I didn’t want to do this anymore. I didn’t want to be here anymore and collect a paycheck and just show up um that there’s got to be a different way for leaders to inspire others and to change the way that they’re showing up in the room. And so I decided to to leave the room um to walk out.

[00:17:43.04] spk_0:
And I said to myself, yeah.

[00:18:44.24] spk_1:
And I just I said at that point that I’m going to leave the room to change the room in some way. I don’t know how I just know that it’s not this and that’s what really was the the the point that really flipped for me and created um the path that I’ve been on of the past 4.5 years. Um and you know, when I talk to people about this, sometimes they’re like, well, is that the path that I should be taking? Like, no, it’s it’s not, it was for me because that’s what I had to go through to get to where I wanted to go. But ultimately, if you can to do small experiments along the way or kind of maybe take small bets and not leave, you know, your day job, if you will, then that’s always better. But if this is what it takes for you to actually make that movement, then do that. This is a good it’s a good path. If if it’s the only thing that’s gonna get you in motion, I

[00:18:55.34] spk_0:
like that idea that you have to leave the room to change the room. I’ve never heard that before? Maybe that’s common. Uh but you do, it changes the room and it changes your, that changes the room you’re gonna be in next.

[00:20:25.24] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think it also was a was a big moment of being so fierce, so much, so much fear, so much uncertainty for me. I didn’t know what I was doing at that point because I knew hardly that there was something coming up for me, but I then had to kick off this process of understanding, well, who am I really to be doing this? Like, like the imposter syndrome that I had to go through to really experience this, like building a business around this, am I gonna do this on my own is just gonna be you know, coaching is what I ended up getting into, but I had to like figure out well how is anyone gonna want to buy coaching for me if I don’t have a track record of being a coach, So there’s a lot of that that comes into place um but slowly but surely I built the confidence one conversation at a time and also by getting to know who I was um by exploring myself as I say oftentimes my tagline inspiration through honest conversation and those conversations are not always with other people, they start with yourself, really understanding who am I, what makes me unique, you know, what is it that I am wired to do? Um and that starts by getting really quiet and listening to yourself answer those

[00:20:26.84] spk_0:
questions and what and

[00:20:28.09] spk_1:
to answer those questions, the important ones,

[00:20:31.94] spk_0:
essentially helping yourself before you can help others. Yeah

[00:20:34.78] spk_1:
exactly.

[00:20:44.54] spk_0:
Uh coaching yourself before you can coach others, Finding yeah, finding yourself before you can help others find you know, their their right path. Um yeah, you talk, you talk something about this is related self leadership,

[00:20:50.84] spk_1:
what’s

[00:20:58.74] spk_0:
this, what’s this idea of self leadership? Oh by the way, wait, I wanted to ask you first, did anybody yell at you when you walked out of the boardroom? They yell martignetti martignetti get back here or don’t ever come back or anything dramatic like that or

[00:21:20.44] spk_1:
no, it’s ironic that it didn’t uh it was more like looks around the room a little bit like what is he doing? Uh it’s not like I made it some more massive thing and after when I um when I did leave, I came back and I basically said to them, I said, look, you know, I made the decision that I’m, I’m done and this is what I’m doing. Um and they said, okay, you know, it is what it is. You know, they just kind of accepted it, what else, what else are they gonna do? All right? Um but the, you know, jokingly I would say the person who was yelling at me most of all was probably my, my brothers and sisters and

[00:21:38.71] spk_0:
thinking

[00:21:40.04] spk_1:
like what are you doing?

[00:21:42.00] spk_0:
I think

[00:22:33.84] spk_1:
that brings up a good point, which is to say um the cost of your new life is your old life. You have to um to kind of shed the old beliefs that you have the old thinkings of who people think you are and you move into this new place and what that means. You have to sometimes, you know, realize that you’re the only one who’s going to truly know who you are becoming. There’s gonna be a lot of people who don’t understand what you’re going through. Um and that’s okay, they’ll eventually come along, they’ll figure it out, but you have to be okay with being in that raw state, the we often call liminal space that is between the known and the unknown. Um and you become the person who’s more expert at who you’re becoming because you’re going through it yourself,

[00:22:34.73] spk_0:
its its vulnerability to

[00:22:36.65] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:24:22.64] spk_0:
willing to be vulnerable to family colleagues who you know who you’re departing, you know, whatever. Yeah. You know, you said I have a little bug a boo about it is what it is and I think in this case you’re being modest, but uh because it is what you made it, you know, as I don’t know if it was a conversation with the boss or you know, whatever, but it’s not just, it didn’t just happen, You know like the weather, it is what it is, we can’t control that. But 99% of the time I think people use it is what it is. Either they’re like in your case you’re being modest. I think you you caused that you caused that to happen. You made a conscious choice in the moment and left the room and and followed through on it. So you you you caused the change um and a lot of times I think uh aside from modesty at absolves people of responsibility, you know, it is what it is. Well, no, actually it is what you made it or what we together made it maybe there is a shared responsibility accountability, but I uh I’m I’ve I’ve I’ve said it a million times it is what it is, but just like in the past few months or so. I’ve been drilling down on that because it’s so common and very little is what is what it is. The vast majority of times. It’s what someone has made it, it might be some industry, it might be some political party, there might be some person, it might be some group of persons, it might be you, it might be me, it might be us together. Yeah. You know, it is what it is. Uh absolves accountability. So you’re, you know, you’re a thinker, you’re a thinker. So I want to share my, maybe you’ll think about what I think about. Maybe

[00:25:45.64] spk_1:
not. I love what you said and I think it’s what’s so cool about it is that it’s like, it is what it is, has to be um, you know, proceeded followed by, um by and what now and what now. So if you say that, okay, it is what it is. Well, okay, but there’s gonna be some action that follows it that makes it meaningful, makes it meaningful that you’re going to take some action that’s going to like say, okay, if that’s what the existing paradigm is and you’re willing to shift out of it, that’s what means that you did something about it to actually make a difference. Um, to shift out of what it what it is, what it is, which oftentimes we’re stuck in these environments that have become, you know, self perpetuating if you will. Um, and then what you do is you step out and say, nope, not me, I’m not going to stay in this environment any longer, so I’m gonna do something about it, I’m going to move out of that environment and I’m gonna create something different, but it’s about taking action and that action then has follow on action and before you know what you’re doing something different, even if that action is not perfect, gosh, like that, you know, the first step you take could be the wrong step, but the fact that you’re taking a step is um, it’s a sign that you’re, that you’re ready for something different, you’re ready to make a move into a direction, that is not the one that you’re in right now

[00:25:54.74] spk_0:
and then you are taking responsibility. You know, you’re, you’re, you are sort of flipping that and you’re, you’re saying without saying it, you’re conscious of, you know, it is what I’ve made

[00:26:04.76] spk_1:
it, my

[00:26:13.24] spk_0:
life is what I’ve made in my career, whatever, you know, whatever macro or micro um aspect, you know, you may be focusing on, if you’re within your existence, taking responsibility for it, it is what I have made it

[00:26:21.74] spk_1:
now,

[00:26:46.44] spk_0:
as you’re saying now, I can take an action, take a tiny action, I can take a big action and walk out of the room I can take a small action, start investigating, start talking to other people in other careers. You know? Whatever whatever it is, you’re you’re you’re taking responsibility. So that’s my little that’s my tirade on it is what it is. You know, I want folks to take responsibility or or give responsibility or or or responsibility or blame or credit wherever it’s do whatever it is,

[00:26:52.05] spk_1:
if

[00:26:57.54] spk_0:
it’s yourself, it’s a team, if someone else, you know, very little is it is what it is like I said, the weather.

[00:28:09.24] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, I’m going to take it a step further because, you know, as we often say, the words we use, you know, really, um creates our world and the word that comes to mind for me now, especially when it comes to self leadership, is that it’s taking ownership, um ownership of your path and if you continue to accept it is what it is, then what’s happened is you’re stuck in this, like this path of like, whatever, you know, comes to me, I’m just going to accept it and live within it, live it, live within the existing paradigm. But if I take ownership of my path, take ownership of my life, lead myself. Then what happens is I can own the decisions, good or bad, whatever happens next, I could fail, I could win. Um and either way I can be proud that I took ownership of whatever happens next. And that’s what leadership is about. Self leadership especially is about, is really saying that I choose to take ownership of the path forward as opposed to just accept what is. That’s

[00:28:26.04] spk_0:
one of your, one of your guide posts. You know there you have uh you have eight guide posts in the book and we’re not gonna have time to get to all of them. So you know, folks are just gonna have to buy the book. You got to buy the book. That’s the way that’s the way to get the full content. You know, we can we can we can tease you with with ideas here. But you know, one of your guide posts is connect with the leader within

[00:28:31.44] spk_1:
Yes,

[00:28:37.04] spk_0:
that’s the self leadership that we just talked about. Another one is check your surroundings.

[00:28:40.04] spk_1:
Mm hmm.

[00:28:45.64] spk_0:
Those around you. The influences around you. Talk about that. Check your, Check your surroundings.

[00:30:25.94] spk_1:
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s so important to think about that. Like Oftentimes, you know, you think that um you know, the environment that you’re in is um It is you know that you just show up and the people around you are going to support you or they’re gonna, you know, bring you to where you are. What the surroundings we have. They create this uh container for um Either supporting us or defeating us. And so we need to make sure we’re very careful about is surrounding us with the type of people who are going to help us to thrive. Not just survive. Um you know, i in the book, there’s a there’s a conversation about how, like, you know, in India in Delhi, um there’s this idea that like, you know, there’s a lot of pollution, there’s no doubt about it. There’s a ton of pollution. And the people of Delhi have really come to this place where they’ve just been able to adapt into living in the world of their bodies have adapted to the pollution, but the reason why they’ve done that is because they have no other choice but to adapt because that’s what their environment is. But when you make a conscious choice to say like, well, I don’t want to be in that environment. If I take myself out of the environment, I don’t want to adapt to a toxic environment. I want to adapt to an environment. In fact, maybe even shape the environment so that I’m in a place where I’m surrounded by people who helped me to become something better than who I am. So that’s surrounding is important. If you surround yourself with people who support you, who allow you to be free to speak your mind, then you’re gonna really take yourself to the next level as opposed to holding yourself back.

[00:30:50.04] spk_0:
You spend time with people who bring you up uplift you not, you know, toxic personalities, negative personalities. You know, that that really that really can hurt it impacts, even though you’re, you know, you you you may even recognize it as toxic, but it’s still you know, I don’t know, you know, to me, I would say like it tears you down. It brings you down it, it can hurt you

[00:31:04.04] spk_1:
absolutely. And sometimes you don’t even recognize it. Sometimes we don’t

[00:31:04.78] spk_0:
recognize that we’ve

[00:31:19.44] spk_1:
become so immune to it that like because we’ve built these um these immunities to seeing what it is that we’re living in. It’s like the fish and water, right? We don’t know where in water we’re just in it. Um so it takes someone else to tell you, hey, do you realize what you’re living in right now. Do you realize the environment that you’re in is not supporting who you really want to be and that’s why a coach or mentor somebody who can can look at your situation and help you to see you know how it’s not currently serving you and how it could be different.

[00:31:49.84] spk_0:
I should have asked you to explain the purpose behind the guide posts before I story we started talking about the guard post. You’re stuck with a lackluster host tone, you know, there’s no way there’s no way around it. So you know, I apologize for that.

[00:31:58.77] spk_1:
I mean

[00:32:11.04] spk_0:
you could take over it is tony-martignetti non profit radio you’re you’re you’re you’re you’re not the aptly named host, but you know, you could be you could be you have the potential to be host of All right. So the guide posts, what’s the whole what’s the whole point behind uh the eight guide posts that you spend a lot of time talking about in the book.

[00:33:29.74] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean the guy poster, there are two really kind of set your path to getting to where you want to go to create a journey to, you know, connect with what you want to accomplish in your life, to be on a journey that will connect you to the type of, you know, fulfillment that you’re looking for. Um I mean, you know what I think is most important is to just the pause, the initial, you know, let’s step back and look at what’s possible. And as you get to those different posts they build on each other. You know, as you said, there’s this, you know, connecting with self leadership and you know, seeing that, you know, whether or not the environment is right for you, but also thinking about legacy, what you think is so important. And when you start to think about like what do I want my legacy to be, who I want to be remembered for? Um and that’s important. I think it’s important to think about those things because sometimes we just get our heads so down and we just focus and we just need to step away from it and say what else is important here, what else do I want for my life and what do I want people to know about me um in the end

[00:33:34.14] spk_0:
and this is all to help folks climbed the right mountain.

[00:33:35.86] spk_1:
Exactly

[00:33:36.41] spk_0:
for them for them.

[00:33:37.73] spk_1:
Yes yes for them so key

[00:37:48.83] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies join me in welcoming four D. Their I. T. Solution is I. T. Infra in a box. It’s budget friendly and holistic. You pick what you need and leave the rest behind. I thi assessment multi factor authentication, other security cost analysis, help desk and more choose what’s right for your I. T. Situation and for your budget. Fourth dimension technologies tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s time for Tony’s take two managing those who fear fundraising. We’re probably talking about board members or potentially other volunteers. You could have other volunteer leaders conceivably helping you with your fundraising. Well I’m not talking about professional fundraisers. You know if you hired a professional fundraiser who fears fundraising you made a big mistake. Cut bait. It’s time to let that person go or find another job for them. The professional fundraiser who hates fundraising, fears fundraising. But uh so that’s that we’re putting that aside. It’s probably not a professional. So the volunteers who fear fundraising. My first advice is help them in there fundraising endeavors in their soliciting, help them with training, certainly staff support role playing assuring them that they don’t have to solicit alone that there will always be either a staff member or another volunteer with them. So they’ll never be alone doing it. Help them see that they wouldn’t be in this, you know, all by themselves. But if they’re still resistant to soliciting, okay, then we’re gonna take them off solicitation and find something else fundraising related for them to do. Like thanking folks board. If its board members were talking about what donor would not love to get a handwritten note or a phone call from a board member, purely a thank you. No more. No, nothing more than that. Just to thank you. Why do you love our work? Those are such easy conversations. So thanking could be hosting, hosting an event, small event, perhaps in their home, maybe some other venue that that maybe their office club, whatever, hosting a small event for you, introducing you to folks, bringing their networks to your organization. So there’s three other ways that those who fear fundraising because they think it’s, it’s soliciting can be brought into the, into the fold more comfortably showing them that there are things that are not soliciting, but that are still valuable around fundraising. And then the third, if they’re not willing to do either one or two, then you gotta move past these folks. They cannot be obstacles to those who don’t fear fundraising, who are embracing it, who recognize how important a role it is for them as as key volunteers. So you gotta get past these folks, they, we can’t have them as obstacles to other people. So those are my uh, my ideas around helping those who fear fundraising, helping you manage those folks That is Tony’s take two, we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the other tony-martignetti with tony-martignetti I love that name. The the other other guide posts I want to talk about be ready to adapt.

[00:38:39.32] spk_1:
Yes, Yeah. I mean I kind of, I think I already kind of talked a little about this, but there’s this idea that like, you know, we have to be able to think differently about how, you know, each thing that comes at us, like every time we are moving to a new job or a new place, we’re constantly being faced by change. So we need to be ready to adapt. Twitter’s on the horizon so that the idea that, you know, we need to have that skill set built into us around, you know, what else is possible for me? What else do I need to build into my path that allows me to be able to adapt to that change. And I talked about that, being able to adapt to a toxic environment or being able to adapt to a positive environment that still applies here when you can adapt in a more positive way to make a big difference as to how you navigate

[00:38:50.52] spk_0:
and how does that impact leadership then if you are, if you are leading others.

[00:39:45.22] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean when you’re leading others and you’re able to show them your modeling the way you’re helping them to see that how they can adapt is is really how you’re showing them, Hey, things didn’t go according to plan. Let’s pivot in a different way, Let’s move a different direction. Let’s, you know, figure out what we need to be able to change. You know, this particular initiative to something else like during the pandemic, there’s been so much adaptation that businesses have had to take and leaders have had to take because well we weren’t already for, you know, leading in a virtual space from the get go. So we had to get ready for a lot different changes. How are we going to communicate how we’re going to connect with each other? How are we going to just get the business to continue to operate? So there’s been a lot of that, you know, how do we become more adaptable as humans?

[00:40:17.11] spk_0:
I think a lot of that goes to vulnerability to, you know, being willing to, you know, as you said, you know, pivot, try something different. Um, you know, whether it’s the pandemic or just, you know, I don’t know, some event or some fundraising campaign keeping for our listeners in the nonprofit space, um being willing to be vulnerable. I think vulnerability is, is so valuable for for a leader.

[00:40:19.91] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it really is, it’s something that nowadays, um we’ve come a long way from from what was um the way leaders were, that’s still

[00:40:42.71] spk_0:
sort of the Jack welch general motors or general Electric, pardon me, G yeah I’m the leader, follow me, you know the omniscient, I’m the present, you know, grab, grab, grab my belt loop and hang on.

[00:41:45.11] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean I think with when it comes to the you know vulnerable and I know it’s a very often nowadays it’s very popular word to be using the vulnerable leader but it’s not just about being vulnerable, it’s about being true to the people around you being you know, transparent and reel. Um when you’re showing up to the people around you and saying like I don’t always know the path forward, I don’t always have to have the answers and I’m okay with being wrong, you know, there’s this element that they will respect you more. It’s actually like a paradox in a sense because we’re so used to having the leaders having all the answers. But when leaders are courageous enough that they can put themselves out there and say I’m going to lead us forward with your help to move us in the right direction, even if I don’t have the answers, that’s scary, it’s scary to think that like you’re gonna just put yourself out there and it’s like the person who goes on stage to present and there’s petrified

[00:41:47.31] spk_0:
of

[00:42:29.00] spk_1:
doing it but they do it anyways because you know what they believe and the fact that they that what they’re doing is important and what they, what, you know what their company’s mission and what they’re wanting to contribute is important. So they do it and they do it with all the fears included, everything included, the impostor syndrome. They do it anyways. Um and when people see that they resonate with that because they say, wow, now that’s a leader, that’s someone who’s despite of all his shortcomings, despite of the things that his or hers um shortcomings or things that are holding them back. He goes forth anyways, That’s pretty

[00:42:34.90] spk_0:
cool. Yeah, yeah. Um get your bearings and you know, you’re talking about the game versus gap thinking,

[00:44:03.39] spk_1:
Yeah, I love this particular one because this is one that I think I tap into a lot for myself myself personally, which is that we we constantly thinking about like, oh, you know, why am I not where I want to be in my life, where why am I not where you know, where I want to be in my professional career. Um and even when we do set a goal, there’s this expectation that we should be like, you know, maniacally focused on getting to that goal. But the reality is that’s all about gap thinking it’s like the gap between where I am to where I want to be, but when we focus on the game thinking you can really look back and say, well where have I come from? You know, what are the gains that I’ve, that I’ve created on this path and how can I really use that as the fuel to move forward. It’s like you appreciate the journey that has gotten you here and then it also gets you thinking all I need to do is continue to take those small steps and look at the small gains that will, that will take to move from here to the next place, to the next place to the next place before you know that gap that you would have been looking at is gone. So at change in perspective, gain versus gap will get you thinking out of that little, you know, the place of, of lack of scarcity and into the place of abundance. Mhm

[00:44:04.19] spk_0:
How far how far I’ve come?

[00:44:06.08] spk_1:
Yeah, how far I’ve come

[00:44:07.78] spk_0:
versus how far I need to go. Yeah.

[00:44:30.39] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean it’s funny when you’re connecting this back to the whole mountain analogy, which is so true. Oftentimes, you know, that’s the, makes all the difference when you look and you’re saying like, oh my gosh, like we’ve got a long ways to go, then that can be really defeating. Um but when you look back and you say, oh my gosh, how far we’ve come, that that’s game and it really makes you feel like appreciative and like almost proud of, you know, wow, all we have to do is just now we’re we’re three quarters away there another quarter to go.

[00:44:43.59] spk_0:
Mhm You mentioned the journey

[00:44:45.59] spk_1:
and

[00:44:46.08] spk_0:
you make the point that happiness is the journey. It’s not a destination.

[00:44:53.09] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:44:54.14] spk_0:
talk about that.

[00:46:10.78] spk_1:
Yeah, I think it’s so important that people are in this place of trying to enjoy even the struggles that they’re on in their path of creating who they want to be, who they’re, who they’re destined to be. You know, there’s this element of like, you know, seeing the growth as just something that is, you know, enjoyable. It’s something that they can be happy about um if you’re constantly feeling like you’re missing something, then your life is going to be full of a lot more struggle. The struggle itself becomes even harder because you’re constantly feeling like your urine lack mode. Um So when you come from a place of, I’m happy now and this is who I am. I’m already the person who I want to be, All they have to do now is continue to, to do the steps to fulfill some of the pieces that will lead me to the next thing that I’m, I’m after. It’s almost like you the, you know, to connect to this might lose some people, but the idea that like everything you ever wanted is already within you, you just have to do the process of physically creating it in the world

[00:46:26.78] spk_0:
Alright let’s make sure we didn’t lose anybody. That sounds like, I think you have a quote in the book, You quote someone to, to that effect, isn’t it that everything you have is already within you for everything you want is already everything you want is already within you. I think that’s one of the quotes you

[00:46:30.81] spk_1:
have to have a lot of quotes

[00:46:43.58] spk_0:
at the start of a chapter. Alright, so so say more about it. What what what what are we, you know, what are we, what are we missing if we’re not realizing happiness in our journey?

[00:46:55.18] spk_1:
Yeah. We may be thinking to ourselves that like I could, I’m not being the person I want to be. So I’m gonna use an example. So the example I often think about is the person since today’s marathon monday um in uh in boston we have um the boston.

[00:47:05.05] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:48:00.37] spk_1:
yeah. Um so which is kind of a momentous considering the fact that the past two years um there hasn’t been one. Um but the the whole idea is that if someone says that I want to be, I want to run a marathon but um I, you know, I don’t, I’ve never run a marathon before. So they had the sense of like, well and how do I do that and how do I become a marathoner? Well, the first thing you can do is start thinking about yourself as being a marathon runner. I am a marathon runner. So internally you start to create your programming to say I am the person that I want to be. And when you do that, you start to think, well what are the things that a person who’s a marathon runner do? How do they act, who do they, who are they being and how can I be that person now? So when you connect with this idea of like, of being that person now, even though you haven’t still haven’t run, I haven’t taken a step yet, since I’ve said that um what you’re starting to think about

[00:48:12.08] spk_0:
it, you should be out there, you’re supposed to be aerobic training, Why are you not in this marathon? Seriously? Come on.

[00:48:29.37] spk_1:
But but the reality is, it’s like, you know, when someone makes it makes a commitment like that or says that they want to do that, the first thing they can do is start to think and act like it’s already who they are.

[00:48:31.77] spk_0:
Mhm.

[00:48:47.37] spk_1:
Like if you say to yourself, I want to be this person who’s contributed this in this way, or a person who is kind and um and thoughtful and such and such, so what would a kind and thoughtful person be doing? What would they do? What would a marathon or I mean, just come back to the other analogy, what would a marathon only be doing while they train every day? They don’t eat snacks, like they don’t eat junk food on a regular basis, you know, they do certain things, they act in a certain way, if that’s who I wanna be, that’s who I am,

[00:49:02.07] spk_0:
then

[00:49:04.07] spk_1:
I got to be that way. Um it’s, it becomes like a programming, it’s a place to come from, not a place to go

[00:49:09.05] spk_0:
to

[00:49:24.67] spk_1:
and that same thing is about, you know, if you’re saying that I want to be happy, then don’t say that I’ll be happy when it’s a place to go to, it’s not a destination, it’s a place to come from, so I’m happy now. All I need to do is to do the things that keep me happy, make me happy,

[00:49:36.47] spk_0:
awesome. Alright. Mhm. What would you like to talk about tone? I

[00:49:39.07] spk_1:
uh it

[00:49:43.97] spk_0:
is tony-martignetti non profit radio you could be the aptly named host, so no, uh I mean I have some other stuff to ask, but what do you want to talk about your your book or your practice?

[00:49:51.37] spk_1:
Well

[00:49:51.81] spk_0:
we can talk about the practice

[00:50:13.96] spk_1:
a bit because I think um one of the things that I found interesting about um coaching with people over the past few years especially is this element of like really wanting to get unstuck, especially when they’re, you know, they’re challenging their business and they’re feeling like uh how do I get to that next place, How do I get that next? You know, past this hump that I’m in um so maybe we can talk a little bit about that,

[00:50:20.56] spk_0:
okay.

[00:52:05.75] spk_1:
Um so one of the things that usually comes to mind and I like sharing this model called, I call it, expand your vision narrows your focus. And the reason why I call it that is because oftentimes the stuck nous that we feel is because we don’t, we’re not seeing beyond what’s right in front of us, We’re just seeing the wall. And so oftentimes, um, when I’m talking with people, I’m getting them to think about new possibilities. Um, what else is possible for me. And so I’ll have them do is I’ll have them say I expand your vision means like just really stepping away from that wall and create some more options. Um, and don’t feel as though you can leave anything out just like completely brainstorm, think differently, you know, what’s on the periphery of who you are, what you’re doing, what your business is up to. Um, and even when you think about it from the nonprofit, like where are the things that like if we’ve only been doing traditional things, how can we get nontraditional? What are the non traditional ideas? So just put them all out there and when you start to explore those different options and you say, okay, well this is the one that I really think is interesting. It hasn’t, it’s intriguing us. Then you narrow your focus and that’s the next part of this, which is to say this is what we’re gonna really spend our time and effort in and all those other things, they just kind of go away and they become not important right now. It’s like you say no to everything else. And this becomes the primary focus of the next move forward until you’ve investigated it. And you find whether or not it’s not the path, if it is the path and fantastic, but it’s like an iterative process, you can kind of say, expand narrow, expand, narrow until you figure out the path that’s really gonna mean a lot for you as a business.

[00:52:22.65] spk_0:
It sounds like the inspired workplace, or at least it reminds me of inspired workplace that you talked about in the book.

[00:53:13.85] spk_1:
Yeah. In a sense, Yes, but it’s a there’s a lot more to the inspired workplace because it’s more than just getting them to think like, okay, you know, you show up in your, you know, going to create an inspired workplace, it definitely gets new possibilities going and gets them thinking differently. But with the inspired workplace, what if I usually tap into there is I want to make sure that people understand that, that you can make failures and you can allow people to really feel safe in the process of doing that, because, you know, constantly there’s gonna be people who are feeling like, can I really share that idea, can I really get out there and do this so like this, we have to make sure that in the process of expanding our vision and narrowing of focus, we also create that safety and trust that allows people to feel as though I can do all this because if you don’t have that foundation, it makes it really hard for people to do that.

[00:53:19.75] spk_0:
That goes back to vulnerability to

[00:53:22.18] spk_1:
absolutely

[00:53:22.99] spk_0:
willingness to

[00:53:23.76] spk_1:
be

[00:53:34.15] spk_0:
alright. Um is your is your official name on your birth certificate? Is it Anthony or

[00:53:34.55] spk_1:
is it is it

[00:53:35.53] spk_0:
is so you use Anthony like when you open a bank account or something like that?

[00:53:39.45] spk_1:
You

[00:53:40.11] spk_0:
do? Yeah, I do too.

[00:53:44.95] spk_1:
Yeah. All

[00:54:05.54] spk_0:
right. Um you want to leave us with Some, I mean you’re pretty, you’re you’re pretty inspiring. Overall we’ll be talking almost almost 50 minutes. You’re it’s hard for me to say leave us with inspiration. You’ve been inspiring. Um but uh I know you want to give it a shot, give it see if you can bundle all your inspiration into uh into a couple of sentences of closing please.

[00:54:12.30] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ll get I’ll get a good closing for you.

[00:54:15.50] spk_0:
So

[00:54:49.14] spk_1:
the one thing that I often tell people is if you’re feeling like you have lost the spark in your life in your work, the best thing you can do is look for the signs of the things that are that do spark you up and do more of that. You know when I when you look at the week ahead, if there’s nothing on your calendar that you look forward to look for, put something on your calendar at least one thing that will get you going that will make you look forward to the week ahead and that is a starting point. You want to make sure they have something to look forward to.

[00:55:00.04] spk_0:
tony-martignetti chief inspiration officer at inspired purpose coaching inspired purpose

[00:55:01.18] spk_1:
coach

[00:55:07.34] spk_0:
dot com and he’s at tony-martignetti one. Sorry about that, don’t

[00:55:09.54] spk_1:
what

[00:55:28.94] spk_0:
a pleasure. Great. Find your over. That’s good. Yeah, we don’t dwell on these things. Right. Of course you’d be the, you’ll be the last person to be still piste off Eight years later that you didn’t get at tony-martignetti that would defeat everything. We just talked about antithetical to your entire being anyway, so what a pleasure to have you Tony. Thank you very much. Really enjoyed the same

[00:55:32.13] spk_1:
here. Thank you so much.

[00:55:35.74] spk_0:
Next week We’ll get back to our 2022 NTCC

[00:55:39.02] spk_1:
coverage

[00:56:46.74] spk_0:
if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. I feel bad about that too. You can’t, you can’t have tony-martignetti I missed this guy’s life up. I messed it up but I was, I was first of the game, what can I tell you, I was responsive by turning to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission and by fourth dimension technologies I T infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez marc Silverman is our web guide and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with Me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95%. Go out and be great, mm hmm, mm hmm.

Nonprofit Radio for April 25, 2022: Asking For, Receiving & Giving Feedback

 

Amy Drader: Asking For, Receiving & Giving Feedback

The mere thought of getting or giving feedback makes many people anxious. Yet normalizing feedback as a safe, productive, routine exercise will improve your team’s performance. Amy Drader from Growth Partners Consulting, reveals how to get to that higher state. (This is part of Nonprofit Radio’s coverage of 22NTC, the 2022 Nonprofit Technology Conference, hosted by NTEN.)

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[00:01:46.34] spk_0:
mm hmm. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into Ankara rex sis if you broke me with the idea that you missed this week’s show asking for receiving and giving feedback, the mere thought of getting or giving feedback makes many people anxious yet normalizing feedback as a safe, productive routine exercise will improve your team’s performance. Amy grader from growth partners consulting reveals how to get to that higher state. This is part of nonprofit radio’s coverage of 22 NTC. The 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10 On Tony’s take two ever sued a donor. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o From 22 NTC here is asking for receiving and giving feedback. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 22 Ntc. Our coverage continues. Of the 2022 nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10 with me now is Amy draeger. Welcome Amy.

[00:01:49.84] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you for having me

[00:02:16.34] spk_0:
Pleasure. A pleasure to have you on nonprofit radio Amy is consultant and leadership coach at growth partners consulting. Amy you’re session topic is asking for receiving and giving feedback. It’s very interesting. It caught my eye. Why do we have such a difficult and awkward relationship with feedback.

[00:02:34.94] spk_1:
Absolutely. I you know, it’s funny you brought that up because that’s one of the first questions I posed to the group at the session was and you tell me actually. So if somebody were to come up to you and say, hey, can I give you some feedback? What comes to mind? What’s that connotation for you?

[00:03:05.34] spk_0:
Well I try to say thank you. Yeah. You know what, what are you, what are you thinking? What what can I do, what can I help you with? Maybe what can I do better, what can I help you with? Uh you know, but it’s hard to not to personalize it, especially, you know, I’m the host of a podcast, although the podcast of course only gets positive feedback, it’s all, it’s 100% unanimous. I’ve been doing this for 12, 12 july will be 12 years. I’ve never gotten a negative comment. Natural. So so that’s feedback is easy to take. No, but you know, it’s easy to personalize it of

[00:03:07.30] spk_1:
course, you

[00:03:21.84] spk_0:
know, instead of you thinking about it being your performance, you know, you think about it being you? Me alright. Oh I did something, you know, especially I have my own business podcast, et cetera. Um, so but I try to be opening open to it and I like to think I am.

[00:04:48.64] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the majority of folks do try to do that. What’s interesting is I posed this question to the group and the reaction over 70% of the people in the session, associate feedback as either something bad, there’s going to be a problem or a correction of some sort or avoided the word entirely. So the organization didn’t even want to use the word feedback instead use advice, suggestions, recommendations. So there’s this connotation, that feedback is something back and you know, it’s, it’s kind of one of my missions in working with leaders and teams is to normalize it into information that’s intended to advance performance or intended to improve or help us grow. It’s just information. Now, naturally we are human. And so when we hear something about ourselves, we naturally go into threat mode, there must be something wrong. So exactly what you brought up. We try not to personalize it, but then we sometimes do and then we have to figure out ways how to navigate that. What we do know is talking about how the team works together, how a leader performs, how the team works with the leader. When we have open feedback on teams, we get better results, Teams perform better. And so that’s, that’s really what the goal of of having open discussions without feedback is really about.

[00:05:15.24] spk_0:
Let’s start with not banning the word back. Okay, The word is feedback. You know, like I work in plant giving fundraising. The word is death. We don’t have to say. People passed on, moved along, left us went to a better place they died. It’s okay, they died. It’s someone’s death has happened, death. So here the word is feedback. It doesn’t have to be advice or mentoring or, you know, whatever other euphemisms feedback don’t be afraid of the word feedback.

[00:05:28.04] spk_1:
Exactly, Exactly. And that’s that’s the whole goal. Let’s normalize it. And when we normalize it, then we can talk about it, keep relationships intact and then continue to improve in advance and achieve whatever those goals are that we want to achieve.

[00:05:41.74] spk_0:
Your description says normalizing feedback begins with asking, not giving Yeah, What do you mean? How do we start this?

[00:05:44.50] spk_1:
Yeah. So, so the so often people will come to me and say amy, how do you get feedback? And we’re very quick to want to give it to others and let others know what we think

[00:05:53.84] spk_0:
about,

[00:05:55.33] spk_1:
right? Right. And and

[00:06:06.44] spk_0:
like my my modeling that is Larry David, you know, on curb your enthusiasm. I’m not this is not criticism. It’s help. I’m helping. I’m helping.

[00:06:08.12] spk_1:
Exactly. Exactly.

[00:06:09.62] spk_0:
But he’s he has the vindictive school of feedback. We don’t want to don’t want to go to Larry David model. All right.

[00:07:49.44] spk_1:
Exactly, Exactly. But really it begins with us asking for it and modeling how to receive it in a safe and productive way. So we demonstrate that we’re open to feedback. We embrace it as valuable information that’s helping us improve. People are going to be more likely to receive feedback from us. So it begins by asking for and receiving feedback and doing that in in, you know, I really say, there’s two high quality ways to do that um and the first one is to ask for feedback about something specific. So most people are not very good at giving feedback spontaneously. So the way to not ask for feedback is to just spring it on somebody, you’re like, hey, how do you think I’m doing? The person isn’t gonna know what to say about what? Right. So the first way to really ask the feedback is to do it about a specific activity. Maybe there’s a particular skill you want to improve upon. Um You know, a simple example is maybe you want some feedback in the organization on how you run a meeting. You might go to a trusted colleague or your boss and say, hey, listen, can you observe me in this meeting and watch how watch to see if I engage everyone in the meeting to speak up. I want to be sure that my the way I’m facilitating and engaging people, I’m doing it in a very equal and consistent way. So that’s very something very specific for someone to observe of you and then give you some feedback on it. So ask for specific feedback about something. It was interesting, we had folks in the session get excited about that um and and to be able to narrow in on something about their effectiveness and be able to get specific about it and get some specific feedback.

[00:08:02.34] spk_0:
Does that include asking a supervisor, you know, to be sure be that specific? Alright.

[00:08:24.34] spk_1:
Yeah. In fact, it’s funny you brought that up because a woman in the session said she often goes to her boss and says, hey, can you give me some feedback? I really want to be sure I’m doing my best. And she said her boss never has anything good to say. Her boss just says you’re doing a great job. Just keep it up. And that’s a good example of even leaders in positions may not be prepared to give specific high quality feedback. So giving them something to look for is going to help you get something of higher quality.

[00:08:44.74] spk_0:
Okay, okay. How does this all play into the annual or semi annual performance review? You know, you don’t have, you don’t have to ask for that. It’s coming whether you want it or not, it’s it’s coming.

[00:08:50.34] spk_1:
What

[00:08:50.94] spk_0:
what’s your advice? Maybe I’m jumping ahead. Maybe I’m jumping, you

[00:08:53.82] spk_1:
know, you’re

[00:08:57.94] spk_0:
stuck with a lackluster host. I’m sorry about that. So how do we how do we incorporate normalizing?

[00:09:02.72] spk_1:
Well, I guess we don’t

[00:09:11.04] spk_0:
have a normal, I mean that’s just part of the procedure, you know, it’s coming, it’s coming in a month or it’s coming in a year? Whatever. What’s your advice around that performance review?

[00:09:12.06] spk_1:
No, that’s a great question

[00:09:13.43] spk_0:
formal stuff.

[00:09:23.54] spk_1:
The the the the bottom line message with feedback is to have it uh frequently occurring throughout the year. And so, you know, one of the things we got into in the session was the right ratio, positive two critical feedback. And and what we know really well is that positive feedback motivates positive performance and that’s well established in, in psychology literature.

[00:09:42.13] spk_0:
So

[00:10:04.74] spk_1:
when it comes to your question about the performance management system or the performance reviews, by the time an individual gets to a performance review, there should be no surprises because the leader has been having conversations about performance the entire year and and none of that should be stockpiled for the six month review or the the annual review. Honestly, performance review should be no big deal because we’ve been having routine and consistent conversations throughout the entire year.

[00:12:17.74] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They can help you with content creation. Content management and content promotion. The creation. Do you have documents that need to be written like an annual report or do you have research that you want to have produced? Maybe a case study, maybe an interview series, any big content project you want to get off your staff shoulders turn to can take care of it for you, the content management, that’s the organization. Do you want to create a blog? Do you want to need to organize your blog? All content management and and organizing so that you can find things that your team can find things. Everything is put together orderly, whether it’s on your website or some external site, that’s the content management and the content promotion. They have the relationships and they can help you build relationships with journalists, podcasters, other industry folks, industry, maybe related nonprofits that you’d like to partner with all to get your messaging your content promoted in all those different channels. Right? So the content creation management and promotion, do you need help with content with written words, video, audio speeches. Even though those are, those are spoken words, spoken words turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to asking for receiving and giving feedback. So should we go back to the, the normalizing process? So you know, All right, number one, So ask for feedback. So ask your boss, ask your, I mean, I think a good boss will be asking for for feedback from people who work for him or her.

[00:13:17.64] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s the second way of asking for feedback is to do it in a routine exchange. So, so I always share an example that it actually comes from a boss I used to work with, we had quarterly feedback sessions with each other and we would ask each other the same three questions and it was like, you know, what am I doing well and what contributes to our effectiveness together? What’s something I could stop doing and then what’s something new that I could try that might really help me out. And it was three questions that we ask the same every single quarter. And he would ask me those questions and I would ask him those questions and it would foster this routine discussion about how we work together and how our work affects the team. And the beauty of it is that it was expected. So it didn’t create this like a ton of nerves or concerned because we knew it was going to happen. So routine exchange and you bet happens with bosses too.

[00:13:47.74] spk_0:
And that also helps you prepare, you know it’s coming. So we’re doing this quarterly, it’s on our calendar, we have plenty of time to think through what what am I doing? Well, what what should I change? I noticed you didn’t say what am I doing? Well, what am I doing poorly? He said what am I doing? Well what should I

[00:14:21.24] spk_1:
change? It kind of depends, you know, I I would like to think if something needs to be corrected, it’s corrected in the moment. So if somebody full on makes a mistake and it compromises client relationships, safety depending on what type of work it is. The correction is done in that moment, we’re not waiting for a feedback session for that. So if something needs to be corrected because it’s a mistake that happens immediately. But when we’re doing performance exchange debriefs, this is really about advancing performance, taking it from this point today and take us into the future versus talking about the past to correct it.

[00:14:59.84] spk_0:
Okay, Okay, so so you have three questions, what am I doing? Well, what can I do better? Is that the way you, can I improve on, what can I improve on? Alright, and what’s new, what can I try? That’s new. You’d like to have me try all right now, this sounds like an ideal boss though, taking feedback from, from below, from those who work for him or her, I’m not sure that’s a typical scenario, is it really?

[00:15:33.84] spk_1:
Well, I would say if you have a leader who is embracing leadership best practices and a leader who was likely trained in leadership, it’s quite common and and it’s really, you know, being able to have conversations about how the team works together or performance is a part of leadership responsibility, so leadership is getting results through others. That’s really what being a boss is, is getting results through others. Now that said, there are plenty of people who are promoted into management jobs who don’t have the leadership skill set and so to your point, that may not be a part of the routine expectation experience,

[00:15:47.84] spk_0:
part of what? Say that again,

[00:16:01.14] spk_1:
I said, it may not be a part of the routine experience if you know, and and you know, folks took the session at intent because they wanted to beef up that skill set. So you bet it’s not one that that is always this common

[00:16:10.64] spk_0:
Alright, boss’s boss is listening be good to the folks working for you, uh you know, ask for their feedback about your

[00:16:13.18] spk_1:
performance. It’s

[00:16:14.37] spk_0:
it’s good for the whole team

[00:16:15.58] spk_1:
it

[00:16:28.54] spk_0:
Alright. Um Alright, we still have to talk about the personalizing but but since we’re talking about these feedback, the routine feedback that we’re now gonna have quarterly, right? Um this is done individually, I assume one on one, right. Not in a not in a group, not four or five people who work for one, you know, one vice president or something doing this uh as a team. No.

[00:17:09.14] spk_1:
Right, right. You can do team debriefs as well. In fact, teams that debrief together on their work Perform. I think that the last article I read was 25% better than teams that don’t do debriefs of performance. So you can do a group debrief and it’s for example, what are we doing really well as a team, what are our strength? Where can we improve? So yes, you can do a team debrief. What we were just talking about is exchanged between boston employee. Yeah, do that in in an office or private.

[00:17:29.94] spk_0:
Ok. Now, a team debrief, you need to you need to monitor that to make sure it doesn’t turn into finger pointing. You know, she doesn’t do this. Well, you know, she, I rely on her and she’s often late. You know, then the boss has to step in and say, well, you know, we’re off the we’re talking about a team, we’re looking macro level here, right?

[00:17:31.92] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:17:33.01] spk_0:
If the monitor, make sure the thing doesn’t collapse.

[00:18:19.94] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. The content of feedback matters. So we’re talking about the activity right now. We’re talking about content of feedback and what what we advocate for. And you know, many folks who are having expertise and leadership development are well versed in positive productive feedback is what advances performance. Um Not only is it helpful to know what we’re really good at so we can replicate it, but when we’re recognized for positive performance, it makes us feel good, it makes us feel valued and as obvious as this may seem, when people feel valued, they perform better and that is well established as well. Um You know, there’s there’s lots of research that shows that when bosses show very simple demonstrations of gratitude, people perform their work more accurately, they perform their work better

[00:18:33.34] spk_0:
or

[00:18:45.84] spk_1:
when teams recognize each other’s strengths and when teams appreciate each other, they then perform their work tasks more effectively because they know their peers respect and value them. All right,

[00:18:47.14] spk_0:
Alright, positive, positive positive feedback causes positive performance.

[00:18:52.42] spk_1:
I

[00:18:52.54] spk_0:
mean, it’s it’s clear you said earlier, it’s clear in the research.

[00:18:55.79] spk_1:
Alright.

[00:19:08.94] spk_0:
Positive. Okay. Some of it’s not going to be positive though. Some some feedback of necessity, you know, it’s gonna be negative if we’re let’s go to the personalization again, we touched on it. I’m receiving some negative

[00:19:10.82] spk_1:
feedback.

[00:19:32.44] spk_0:
How do I how do I accept it best. How do I think through it best for really to self preservation. Let’s start with the self preservation before I before I start thinking about how I how it’s gonna help my team if I receive this. Well, how can I help myself to receive this? Well,

[00:19:43.64] spk_1:
yeah, absolutely. So if it sounds like um was it? Well, it can be you get feedback two ways. Either you asked for it or it’s sprung on you? Right. It’s a surprise. Either way, let’s say if you’re asking for it because that’s what I’m trying to normalize it.

[00:19:47.20] spk_0:
Right? Let’s do the ideal. You’ve you’ve asked for it and you you asked for it. You got it.

[00:19:51.21] spk_1:
Exactly. In fact, this just

[00:19:53.80] spk_0:
careful what you ask for it goes be careful what you ask for. All right?

[00:20:25.54] spk_1:
And and that is a worthy thought process, thought process to go through before you ask for feedback is take a step back and think about, okay, what might you hear? And just to prepare yourself and you know, some people get a little bit more extreme than others. Some people go to worst case scenario, whatever works for you because you are putting yourself out there even though asking for and receiving feedback is the way we get the great performance. It’s still can sting. It’s uncomfortable, right?

[00:20:26.78] spk_0:
You’re making yourself vulnerable.

[00:20:28.35] spk_1:
Absolutely

[00:20:29.73] spk_0:
absolutely discomfort. You know, you might consider it attack,

[00:20:33.50] spk_1:
yep.

[00:20:34.09] spk_0:
Alright, so, Alright, so you’re it sounds like your first advice is just prepare

[00:21:34.74] spk_1:
Yeah, just prepare for it. A second piece of advice is to consider it a single so you’ve received it. Okay, so you asked for it? You’re prepared. You received it and you’re like 00uch we’re quite prepared to take a step back, maybe take a deep breath and know that in the moment you don’t have to agree, this could be feedback that you received that you consider is wrong. Maybe you consider it unfair or you consider it hurtful and in that moment there is no need to agree to this feedback to explain this feedback to justify your actions. Take a step back and just thank that individual for their candor and that they had given you something to think about and process even asked for time. May I have some time to process this? Mhm. So take a moment to just thank that person because you did ask them for it. They delivered on what you asked of them. The last thing you want to do is punish them for doing something you asked them to do

[00:21:40.45] spk_0:
right?

[00:22:54.34] spk_1:
Thank you. Don’t have to agree with it. Then give yourself some time and think it through. And and the first piece to remember is this is a single data point. So everyone has an opinion and a perception and ultimately a bias. And so when you receive feedback, you are also receiving feedback from a single data point from one source that likely is not a full representation of who you are. So go out and seek additional data points. This is where you might go and ask a trusted colleague or a trusted friend. Hey, listen, I received this feedback. I want to check it out with you and get more information. Now the key here is not to discredit the person who just gave you this feedback. That’s our experience and that’s our experience with you. There is truth in that. So you also don’t want to discredit it. Get additional data points and then take some consideration on how you might start to adapt your style. Maybe you might adapt the way you communicate with just this one person or maybe you, you might get more feedback that validates the original feedback and you realize, okay, now I I need to adjust my behavior or I need to adjust my work.

[00:26:05.64] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. Have you ever sued a donor to enforce a gift or maybe an estate to enforce a gift? This came to me because there’s a recent piece, it’s from March in propublica about ST jude. Children’s hospitals practices around litigation uh, at ST jude in Memphis Tennessee, I can’t really comment on whether ST jude is appropriately suing estates or not. You know, I need a lot more facts than the article reveals and you can’t always trust media to get details like that. You know, 100% correct. But it gives rise to a really interesting question. You know, what factors go into deciding whether to sue a donor or again, you know, maybe a donor’s estate. Like how much is the gift worth? That’s important. What about the possible public relations fallout? Some people are gonna think you’re champions for your mission, other gonna other people are gonna think you’re scoundrels picking on widows, widowers and, and bereaved people or elderly people or an innocent family. So the pr fallout, you have to consider that how well known is the person that you’re considering suing. That’s gonna give rise to more press than, than less if the person is not very high profile, um, what are, what are your board impressions or board opinions? Your board is your fiduciary, uh, your, your, your, those are your fiduciaries. Um, you know, their opinions are going to be important. Can they come to a consensus? Lots of factors to consider. So just wondering if that’s ever happened to you, if there’s a story you’d like to share. You can let me know because I am interested, I used to be an attorney a long time ago, but you know, I still am interested in the legal side of fundraising and certainly planned giving, you know, if we’re talking about potentially suing estates. So you can get me at tony at tony-martignetti dot com if you have a share a story that you want to share all around suing a donor. Maybe in a state to enforce a gift That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got about a butt load more time for asking for receiving and giving feedback with Amy draeger a little shorter show this week. What if you’re asked to sign something? Uh This is a more perform, this is a more formal now performance review, semiannual or annual. Um There’s let’s say it’s a mixed bag you know but there are some things that you don’t agree

[00:26:15.92] spk_1:
with, some

[00:26:17.81] spk_0:
of it’s quite positive but some uh some is

[00:26:21.11] spk_1:
feels

[00:26:26.44] spk_0:
unfair or wrong but you were then asked to sign the performance evaluation form.

[00:26:28.45] spk_1:
Yeah

[00:26:48.74] spk_0:
usually the boss was I mean in my experience I haven’t been an employee for a long long time. I would be I would be a lousy employee. I could go I could go much stronger than the word lousy but let’s just leave it lousy I’d be a really lousy employee. Um When I used to do you know that I would say you know it doesn’t mean that you agree with it. It’s just that you have received it or something like that. You know you have to sign the form really don’t

[00:28:15.74] spk_1:
you? Huh? I think it depends on your organization and your HR policies so I don’t really know um I have some you know past experience in some organizations and HR was fine if you didn’t sign it, you didn’t have to you know. Um So I think it would depend on what the HR policy is but this is such a good example of not leaving feedback to these like specific events that occur. Um and where I see leaders really compromise candidly, their own credibility is where they’re not recognizing their team for their positive contributions and and and stick with me here because what I find and in fact we we talked about this at the intense session is that there was a lot of leaders in the room who said that they only said thank you or recognize positive behavior if someone went above and beyond or only if they thought about it. And so when we don’t recognize the good things that our teams are performing and doing then when it comes to having a difficult conversation. The context that’s even worse because we haven’t acknowledged all the positive contributions that the person has brought to the table and so that person will feel even more attacked. Undermined by getting this zinger of a negative piece of feedback out of the blue.

[00:28:23.54] spk_0:
So do you

[00:28:23.87] spk_1:
mean

[00:28:25.64] spk_0:
what do you mean? Are are are positive feedback should be even around routine things that the team is doing well. Don’t ignore the d don’t ignore the day to day. In other words

[00:30:09.54] spk_1:
don’t ignore the day to day. And and that’s and the reason for this is that critical feedback negative feedback inhibits our learning in our brains. It triggers fight or flight and when we go into fight or flight, uh, we become very defensive, it’s that taking it personal component that we talked about this whole time. And what we know well is that when we get critical feedback, we then have these negative emotions that emerge, whether it’s shame, embarrassment, uncertainty, these are all very natural emotions that come up when we’ve made a mistake or we haven’t performed in the way our bosses wanted. Now this is why having routine positive feedback flowing on a team is because it creates this foundation of support. And so when I’m on your team and I’m working with you and we recognize each other’s contributions and then I drop wall. You gotta come and talk to me about that. You talk to me. But because we have this relationship where we’re recognizing each other and appreciating each other’s contributions. I know you’re not coming to embarrass me. You got my back because we already have this routine exchange of appreciating, appreciating each other. And so that’s what is critical for teams, especially teams that perform at the highest levels is that they routinely appreciate and demonstrate respect for each other. So that when they have to address the tough stuff, they’ve already got a positive foundation set.

[00:30:13.24] spk_0:
It’s like a relationship building, right? You want to, you want a strong relationship, whether it’s with your co workers, those who work with you for you, uh, above you.

[00:30:24.25] spk_1:
Just

[00:30:34.34] spk_0:
donors, volunteers. You want to have a strong relationship. So that when there is some difficulty, maybe it even escalates, rises to the level of conflict you have, like you just said, I mean, you have this strong foundation and and it’s all kept in context.

[00:30:41.39] spk_1:
It’s

[00:30:41.97] spk_0:
not an isolated negative feedback because there’s never any routine positive feedback.

[00:30:47.84] spk_1:
That’s right. That’s right. And so, you know,

[00:30:50.66] spk_0:
it

[00:30:52.03] spk_1:
is, it is and that’s really what we are at work. We are humans in a relationship with each other. And so acknowledging our contributions and the value each person brings to the table ultimately helps everyone achieve the goal.

[00:31:28.74] spk_0:
And you, you said it so many times you used the word routine routine routine. Don’t wait till the giving Tuesday campaign that everybody, you know, killed themselves on for 4.5, 5 weeks or something, you know, don’t wait for the big gala. The fourth quarter fundraising routine routine positive feedback. So that then routine negative feedback is in the context

[00:31:32.04] spk_1:
of the

[00:31:32.34] spk_0:
more positive and the positive is most likely to outweigh the negative. Otherwise you have a you have an employment problem.

[00:32:18.24] spk_1:
That’s right. That’s right. And and there is a difference between positive routine feedback with occasional critical feedback to advance our performance, right? And performance management. When you have a habitual poor performer who’s lacking the skills to perform in the job there. Those are separate where we want leaders to create a habit around is appreciating the team demonstrating valuing someone’s opinion. Thanking people for speaking up. Um and and doing that, that level of routine feedback performance management is almost a separate topic.

[00:32:22.44] spk_0:
Okay,

[00:32:23.03] spk_1:
okay. What

[00:32:30.14] spk_0:
else should we talk about around this, that that we haven’t or maybe anything that came up with the intense session, what what more do you want to

[00:32:31.78] spk_1:
Know? Well, I think, you know, um my first management job, I was 23, I had absolutely no training and um I had a team of 30 people. It was looking back on it three

[00:32:44.68] spk_0:
years ago, three years ago, you were leading 30

[00:32:46.65] spk_1:
People uh when I was 23.

[00:32:49.39] spk_0:
Yeah, three years ago.

[00:32:52.44] spk_1:
Oh Yeah, yes, three years

[00:32:54.30] spk_0:
ago. Okay,

[00:32:56.01] spk_1:
that was good. Anyway, very early in my career, I was taught the sandwich feedback model, have you heard of the sandwich

[00:33:02.73] spk_0:
sandwich feedback model? No, I don’t. Not acquainted with this.

[00:33:21.34] spk_1:
Okay, this is positive, negative positive. So you need to give someone some sort of critical feedback and you go in and you say something positive to them like, oh, tony you’re, you know, you’re such a valuable member of the team. I just think you’ve been doing a really good job these past couple of months. But you know, when you talk to that customer last week, you could have done this better, but hey, you’re really important member of the team and I

[00:33:28.92] spk_0:
just think you’re doing very, very, very the reality between, well, maybe it’s not between fantasies, but you know, very the reality in the middle very the hard part in the middle.

[00:36:45.93] spk_1:
Yes, exactly. And so the sandwich feedback model, positive, negative positive has since been studied and it’s wildly ineffective and it’s ineffective for all of the obvious reasons. The the employee feels that there’s a grenade in the middle of the positive feedback which undermines positive feedback. So the employee either doesn’t believe the positive feedback or just only listens to the positive feedback because there’s more of it than the negative. So the the key that when you do get to the place of needing to give feedback that you’re very direct and clear on the specific situation and not too muddy it with positive things beforehand. And this was something that was interesting in the session is we we talked through a framework for giving feedback that is um standard for positive or for critical feedback and it allows the person. So let’s talk about critical feedback because that’s really what people want help doing. That’s what makes people mixed managers the most uncomfortable. And so the framework for giving critical feedback begins with allowing the other person to self evaluate. Okay so let’s say I have dropped the ball in a couple of meetings and my first meeting started 20 minutes late and the second meeting, I forgot all the materials for it. Okay you’re my boss, you need to talk to me about it. The first step is to let me evaluate myself because if I already know I screwed up, there’s no need for you to pile on. So the first step is allowed self evaluation and tony you might say to me, hey me, how do you think those last two meetings with marketing went and you’ll just bring up the conversation and maybe I own it and say, you know what, I really dropped the ball on those two meetings or maybe the opposite happens and then I think I nailed them and I just think I was fantastic at this. You now need to share, share with me some candid feedback about these two meetings. So then described the situation from a fact based situation And described first meeting started 20 minutes late. Second meeting didn’t have materials, what do you think about that? So you’re asking me for my perspective then describe what that impact was? My reaction. Is that we started that this my reaction is that um this looks like we’re unprepared. Okay, it’s your reaction then state your expectation moving forward. I want to be sure we’re prepared for all of our meetings. How does that sound and support the person. So this is the framework for getting feedback where I’m going with this story, is that there was someone else who asked the question he said, but do you have a different way of starting it? Like is there a different way other than saying, can we talk about that meeting and what was coming forward is the person was just uncomfortable giving feedback. There was a need to have like the perfect phrase and giving feedback isn’t comfortable. That’s not the goal, that’s not the expectation. And in fact, if you’re someone who has to give feedback and you’re uncomfortable with it, I’d say that’s good because you’ve got some compassion there. You know, it’s an uncomfortable situation. Okay, So my point

[00:37:07.13] spk_0:
that you played sort of a therapist role in that evaluating what was what the core of her question was. It wasn’t opening the conversation. It was discomfort with giving feedback.

[00:37:27.93] spk_1:
Yeah, it was it was one of those things that I think because we’ve all been there, we’ve all had to give feedback and there’s this, you know, for some people it’s dread. And for others it’s just sheer avoidance. And it’s because we’re we we have this belief that giving feedback should be easy. It’s not. And so eliminating that from the expectation is important because if you feel discomfort, it’s okay. That’s pretty typical.

[00:37:39.63] spk_0:
I I appreciate that you say that’s compassion.

[00:37:42.33] spk_1:
Mhm. It is, it’s compassion.

[00:37:45.03] spk_0:
How did you get a leadership job over a person with a team of 30 people at 23? Is that right? That was that right out of college?

[00:38:03.62] spk_1:
Uh nearly I had one year under the book. Uh I had one year at the the organization, I think I was recognized at the time for potential. Like I had no past

[00:38:04.67] spk_0:
experience.

[00:38:21.42] spk_1:
And um, and I also worked for at that time the most influential boss I’ve ever had. And he taught me he was the kind of boss who grew leaders And he would invest 20 minutes with me every day, Those first like 90 days. And he’d quiz me, he’d asked me, Okay, what’s important to your team? What are your goals, who’s doing? I mean he would in

[00:38:35.52] spk_0:
20 minutes a day, 20 minutes a day For your first time for your 1st 90 days that is a real investment in a new employee.

[00:38:54.52] spk_1:
He did and I learned the most about leadership from him in that very short time frame. And so, you know, I also find that everyone benefits from having a great mentor and he ended up being a great leadership mentor for me. And so, you know, that could be a turning point in people’s careers, is to

[00:39:02.97] spk_0:
have somebody, somebody you want to shout out,

[00:39:13.02] spk_1:
oh sure I could. His name’s wade upland and he was my uh, this was 22 years ago,

[00:39:16.42] spk_0:
where, what was the organization?

[00:39:33.62] spk_1:
It was retail, it was a department store, retail, which, which lends to leading a team of 30 people. It’s probably one of the toughest leadership jobs out there because it’s shift work like people work in these shifts. And um, and it was for a department store that of course is now defunct, no longer in business,

[00:39:39.13] spk_0:
which one

[00:39:39.90] spk_1:
marshall field’s

[00:39:44.31] spk_0:
that was a huge brand, huge

[00:39:46.33] spk_1:
brand in the midwest. Yes, yeah, yeah,

[00:39:49.82] spk_0:
I know it because

[00:39:50.97] spk_1:
I

[00:39:51.72] spk_0:
I lived in Missouri for five years when I was in the Air force.

[00:39:55.12] spk_1:
So

[00:39:55.71] spk_0:
I may remember it from, this was

[00:39:57.37] spk_1:
uh

[00:39:58.54] spk_0:
Mid Mid to late 80s,

[00:40:00.34] spk_1:
84 to

[00:40:14.91] spk_0:
89. So maybe I remember it from Kansas City here. I lived about an hour from Kansas City, I may remember Marshall fields, but that was a huge yeah, that was big. Alright, well not not not not because of your leadership experience and you’re not because of your skill. Had nothing to do with the downfall of marshall field.

[00:40:19.03] spk_1:
No, no, there’s there’s more external forces at play

[00:40:24.11] spk_0:
hard to imagine more powerful forces than than your leadership though. Right? Alright.

[00:40:29.81] spk_1:
I

[00:40:40.91] spk_0:
know, I don’t know what, well, I felt bad about the three year comment. I don’t know, it’s commenting on your age. That was probably a misstep. Alright, I feel bad about that. Um let’s see, Oh, anything else that came out of the intent. Any, it sounds like there are a lot of good questions, anything, anything else you want to share with uh with nonprofit radio listeners about?

[00:41:09.91] spk_1:
You know, I think, I think the biggest aha for me is, you know, consultants, we immerse ourselves in the content and and we start to believe that everybody thinks the same way we do and that’s kind of classic and I think one of the things that was so compelling for me was the candor with the group in questioning how frequently they should recognize someone for just doing what’s expected of

[00:41:17.31] spk_0:
them. And

[00:41:46.51] spk_1:
there was almost a resistance to do that and I found that very candid but also unfortunate because if there’s one thing we need more of right now is recognizing and appreciating each other. And so if there’s one thing that anybody takes away from listening to this or you know, reading articles on appreciation or on feedback is to go out and practice giving good feedback, recognize people for their contribution for the time they spend um because appreciating and valuing others is really what we need right now.

[00:42:00.90] spk_0:
Amy trader consultant and leadership coach at growth partners consulting. Where can we find growth partners consulting. Amy

[00:42:07.11] spk_1:
you can go to try GPC dot com.

[00:42:10.90] spk_0:
Try GPC dot com for growth partners consulting of course, this is terrific. Thank you very much. Terrific I think provocative, certainly timely. Well, timeless, really timeless and uh and and provocative too, you know, but but significant important topic. Thank you very much Amy,

[00:42:32.20] spk_1:
thank you. I really enjoyed it. Mhm.

[00:43:41.90] spk_0:
And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of the 2022 nonprofit technology conference Next week. A break from 22 NTC coverage. The other tony-martignetti if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com, I own that he, the other guy does not own that were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our Web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great. Mm hmm.