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Nonprofit Radio for September 27, 2019: 5-Minute Planned Giving Marketing & What’s Fair Game?

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Tony Martignetti: 5-Minute Planned Giving Marketing
The best person to reveal my wildly simple Planned Giving promotion tips is me. (Originally aired 8/18/17)

 

 

 

Maria Semple

Maria Semple: What’s Fair Game?
Info you find on LinkedIn about a potential donor belongs in your report on the person. What about Facebook and Instagram? What if the tidbit is embarrassing or compromising, but valuable to your org? Should you friend prospects to learn more? Maria Semple walks us through the ethical conundrums. She’s our prospect research contributor and The Prospect Finder. (Also from the 8/18/17 show)

 

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Oh, hi. Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% of your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go into super virgins if I saw that you missed today’s show. Five minute planned e-giving marketing The best person to reveal my wildly simple, planned giving promotion tips is me that originally aired on August 18th 2017. And what’s fair game info you find on linked in about a potential donor belongs in your report on the person. What about Facebook and Instagram? What if the tidbit is embarrassing or compromising but valuable to your orange? Should you friend prospects to learn more about them? Maria Semple walks us through the ethical conundrums. She’s our Prospect research contributor and the Prospect Finder. That’s also from the 88 17 show. I’m Tony. Take two. Watch your plan. Giving Relationships responsive by Wagner C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com By koegler mathos Software Denali fundez They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here’s five minute planned giving marketing. All right, well, there is not a guest to welcome because, uh, I’m it on, and it’s a little awkward because although I do a ton of speaking training, this, you know that I It’s very different. That’s on a stage. People expect to hear me because I’m in the program. Not like I just walked in. What? I’ve crashed a few conferences, but they never gave up on stage. It hasn’t been successful yet, but those aside, you know, I’m in the program. I mean, I’m all right. I’m in today’s program. It’s bits booked. I’m I’m booked for the spot, but, uh, the show is never been, uh, me sharing for a full segment. What? What I purport to know about planned e-giving or charity registration. Uh, you know, I filled in from time to time. Ah, guest is lead or a segment ran short. Maybe a pre recorded thing ran short, and so I would fill in for, like, five minutes or seven minutes or so I think is probably the most. But this is, uh, this is a different one. This is different experience. Geez, just get on with it already. This guy’s rambling. Andi, I’m, uh I’m a little nervous about it, but my voice just cracked, like I’m a 14 year old. Um All right, well, I certainly capable, but it feels weird. That’s what I’m saying. It just feels different. This is not my typical venue for me to be speaking without having somebody to talk to. Let me just do a little technical detail first. Sam, is the Facebook shared on Facebook live shared on the non-profit radio page? Can we, uh, because I don’t want it just on my personal pager doing Facebook live today. I don’t know if Maria Semple is gonna do Facebook live on her end, but you’ll you’ll certainly be hearing her. When? When it’s her turn. Look at me. I’m already rushing to the second segment already. Know this is this is okay. Not yet, Not yet. Maria, hang on. Okay, so you want to share the Facebook live to the non-profit radio page so that it’s called Tony martignetti non-profit radio. Okay. There is no Facebook live today. Let me just don’t go to Facebook don’t look for us. They’re not there today. That was 2017 for God’s sake. To do it on mine. Okay, so, uh, I apologize Thio podcast listeners for Ah, for this, You know, just give me a little technological moment, okay? I’m in my Facebook. I see. Live what? Ah, school Sam’s gonna say, I’m gonna take my phone and take care of that. And of course, you know, we’re gonna get to the five minute marketing tips. Just hold the horses. You’ve got a nerve. You got nervous, guest. Okay, Sam’s gonna take care of that. So, five minute marketing, I haven’t expanded version of this that I have done at conferences runs on for 90 minutes or so. You’re not getting that version. Don’t. We’re gonna keep to the keep to the hour, Okay? But you know, I mean, if you want me t o training conference. I love Thio. I love to speak. Just this is today’s a little weird. So So here’s what I, uh, anticipate. We’re gonna cover very briefly. What planned e-giving is We’ll make sure everybody’s on the same page with that. What kinds of non-profits benefit? Like what? What do you need to have in place before you can start your plan Giving five minute marketing. Okay. And what the radical, revocable planned gift are that we’re gonna be talking about marketing for and there’s a lot more planned giving beyond revocable. But that’s what’s gonna talk. You know, we’re just scratching the surface, you know, bite off too much. I want you to get going with planned e-giving. And it doesn’t have to be in depth. So we’re starting with irrevocable, and then we’ll get into the marketing tips, which is the bulk of book of our time. Um, okay, I’m feeling a lot more comfortable, but it’s still also a little weird. Now it’s like 50 50 instead of 90 10 on the Weighted to the weird sight. Now it’s like 50. 50 um, planned giving. This is a method of giving. That is, long term involves the donors consideration of their long term plans. Their state plans a retirement plans very different than asking a donor to right $50 check or even 1/2 a $1,000,000 check or a $5 million check. These thieves gif ts involved more personal considerations of family on DDE have your charity fits into their much longer term plan. Um, and then typically these are cash to your organization when the donor dies. So again, long term, if you get a 60 or 65 year old to include you in there, will they have got a 25 30 35 year longevity. So long term, you need to have this long term view of fund-raising. Your board needs to have that. We’re gonna get to that board support. But this is not the type of giving that is going to pay the five year capital plan or or, you know, any kind of immediate, immediate budget needs that you have. This is long term, fund-raising. I want to stress that the outset that this is not only for your wealthy donors the five minute mark in tips I’m gonna be giving you these quick ideas, These air. We’re gonna be doing these for all your donors. We’re not getting into discriminating by age. Um, because these are easy tips. So I want you to know that these are ideas that are appropriate for any donor-centric to get to. This is not on Lee for your wealthy donors and all of plane that applies to all of planned. Giving people a very modest means can be terrific. Planned gift prospects. I literally mean, if they have been giving you $15 a year and they have been doing it for many years, like 12 of the past 15 years or 18 or 19 or 20 years of the past 20 they are great plan giving prospects. This is not planned. Giving is not only for your wealthy donors, please take that away. And that does not applied only to what we’re talking to about today. All of planned giving people have very modest means. Very modest can include you in their state plan. The smallest planned gift I’ve ever seen. $1000 in someone’s will. And that’s very rare that I’ve seen that only a handful of times in 20 years. Thank you. 17 20 years I’ve been doing plan giving, only seen a couple seen that a couple of times. The average charitable bequests, which you’re gonna be talking about a lot about Will’s requesting a will. The average is around 36 to $37,000 is the average request, so please take away planned giving is not only for your wealthy donors. Um, we’re going to Ah, I just got you know, we’re gonna take our break now, and when we come back, then we’re gonna get into what you need to have in place. What kind of non-profits benefit? What these revocable gifts are that we were talking about. And the marketing tips Stay with me. Finally, the guy got into it, For God’s sake, it’s time for a break indeed. Wagner, CPS. They had a wagon. Or on September 25th Exempt or non exempt. You missed it. But you still need to classify your employees correctly. Ninja worry As a CZ, my grandpa martignetti used to say, Don’t you worry. You goto wagner cps dot com Click resource is and recorded events And there it is. All right, now, back to five minute plan giving marketing with your lackluster middling mediocre host guest for this segment. Go ahead. Let’s go. All right, let’s get into, um, which organizations benefit right now, By the way, I feel much more comfortable now. Now it’s like 95 5 in my comfort in this format. Speaking alone. All right. So what do you need to have in place. You need to have individual donors. If you are strictly grant funded, government funded fee for service funded, then you don’t have any potential for planned giving. You need to have individual people giving from their pockets, and that’s distinguished from people who get you corporate gifts from their employers. That’s different. You need to have people giving from their pockets. Maybe it’s just your board. I hope all your board is giving from their individual pockets. They certainly should be. Lots of guests have made that case over the years, but you know, it’s limited to the extent that you have individual donors. If you have lots of people who give individual gifts, then great that that that is a prerequisite. Also, some longevity. I’d like to see at least five years in an organization, because what are we asking the donors to do, put you in their will or their other long term planned retirement? Said retirement or state plans? Inherent in that is the belief that your organization is gonna outlive them. And even though there’s great passion and even fury, sometimes around new organizations, they’re gonna live forever. Your donors don’t may not have the same confidence. Probably don’t that you do when you’re a brand new organization. So I’d like to see at least five years. That gives some confidence that your organization will survive the the people who make these plan gifts for you some depth to I like to see more than just, ah, founder and one or two people. Same reason. Longevity. You know, you might have small potential again, maybe just your board. If you’re just a founder and one or two people but outsiders, it’s gonna be much harder to persuade outsiders that you will survived them. If it’s a tiny organization, just a few people, that long term view of fund-raising. I explained why before this could be 30 years waiting for cash to come to your organization. So you need to have a long term view of fund-raising. Um, and your board needs needs to understand that building endowment. I hope every knows what endowment isn’t. Just in case. Endowment is that fund that you never spend the principle of you only spend a You may not You only spend income and you may not even spend all the income. You have a very good year in your returns, you know, in eight or 10 or 12% year. Because non-profits air typically conservatively invested, you’re probably not spending that eight or 10%. You’re spending a lot less like half of that because they’re gonna be years when we turned your lower. But that’s the purpose of an endowment is to live perpetually live forever. Hopefully, you’re never spending more than income, and planned giving is perfect for building endowment because so many plan gifts are unrestricted and they could get put into that endowment fund. And even a lot of the restricted ones can go to endowment the creating endowed funds for AA program of yours. Scholarships are popular Ifit’s If it’s some kind of school, college, anything, you know, really a donor cutting dow just about anything programmatically as long as you are willing, your organization is willing to continue that program. So plan giving very good for building endowment. That board support. I mentioned any new initiative. If you’re gonna start planned giving, you need to have the board on board and aware of the long term nature of these kinds of gifts. Six months into this, you don’t want a boardmember complaining we haven’t recognized any cash. You’re spending time, even if you say it’s only five minute marketing. And but where’s the cash? You don’t want that. So set the expectations correctly at the outset. Make sure your board members know again, long term could be 2030 years for some donors until the cash is received by your organization and any type of mission. I really don’t care what you do if you are saving animals, the sky trees, educating, feeding, sheltering. What else can we be doing? You know any of the channel missions? Anything religious, anything. Social service, cultural museums. I work to the norvig freedom. You name it. Anything charitable, It doesn’t matter. Everything I’m gonna cexp explain applies for you. Fund-raising across all charitable missions guaranteed. Um, CJ Frost didn’t answer. Didn’t answer whether he’s running for Congress. All right, maybe he’s not. Oh, not yet. He says not yet. Okay, well, get in there. It’s easy for me to say. Why did you do it, Tony? Martignetti, um, planned giving. So when we are Ah, yes. This is This has come up for me a lot. Um, sexism. I want you to avoid not giving women the attention that they deserve in planned giving. This goes back to January 2011. You go to tony martignetti dot com could see the block post. Just just, um, search sexism. A tony martignetti dot com You’ll see the Post I did and one of the comments. So what? I’m what I’m quoting now from is from a comment, not me. Uh, surprise. According myself, There were women who said that they had dropped hints, left messages, sent emails or boldly said something about a state planning and planned e-giving to non-profits that they had been supporting. This was more than one woman. It was a one comment or talking about friends of hers, and they have been ignored. I don’t know how that could possibly happen. That is gross negligence and oversight. Just don’t don’t ignore women. I mean, they have money and they live longer than men. So a lot of men are giving the money to the women. But even if they didn’t even if they had a shorter lifespan there still, half the population women have wealth and they want to support non-profits. So I don’t know how these hints messages and bold statements could possibly be ignored. Don’t let that happen in your office. It’s gross. All right. We’re moving now to the what types of gifts I’m talking about. The revocable plan. Gift. The three. I want to focus on our charitable bequests. That’s a gift in your will. I got more detail on that living trusts to type of trust that people set up is not charitable purpose. It’s not set up for charitable purposes, but you could be a part of it and being named a beneficiary. Okay, those are the three revocable gifts that we’re focusing on today. There’s a ton more. You could do a cracking again. Take a little sip. Pardon me? A ton more You can do with planned e-giving. But, um, I’m only focusing on three things today, though. These three revocable gifts terror, hickey, Facebook live says Yes, we do, Tony. Yes. Women have money, and they want to give it. Don’t ignore them. All right. So these are the three revocable gifts that I’m focusing on because, you know, it’s only 1/2 an hour now. Now I feel like I don’t give myself enough time, should run the whole show. Maria Semple, you’re out. Cut her out. I’m going out for 60. Um, all right. No, no, Uh, let’s see. And I want you to know that you can have a very, very respectable planned giving program. Just by focusing on these three revocable gifts, your organization may not be big enough to go any further, and that is fine. And you can have a really respectable, successful plan giving program If you just focus on these three types of gifts. Well, you’re already feeling like I’m gonna run out of time. All right? All right. So please take that away. Along with its not only for your wealthy donors. Please take away that you can be a very successful, planned giving shop. Just focusing on these three revocable gif ts. Absolutely. You’re bigger. You want to go further? Absolutely. I worked a lot of organizations. I do but also work with a lot that don’t. All right, this charitable bequests again. It’s a gift in somebody’s will. It’s the most popular kind of planned gift by far. You can expect, like, 75 to 80% of the gifts that you get to be gifts by Will Why is that? Lots of reasons people don’t have to tell you that they’ve done it. It’s private, We always asking. We always want people to tell you because you wanna be able to say thank you, but they don’t have to. They can change their minds. This national statistic is like 4% of people changed their minds after they put a charity in a will, so it’s highly, highly unlikely. But you don’t want to be in that 4%. You gotta treat your donors well, and it’s comforting to donors to know that they can change their minds, because that’s why a lot of donors don’t tell you because they feel, if they do tell you but then have an obligation not to change their minds. We all know that that’s not true. You can change your will any time you want. I cut my wife out routinely every couple days. There’s nothing left for her but U. S. So it’s comforting to your donors to know that they can cut you out, even though it’s highly unlikely. But it’s a reason that’s another reason that gift by will are so popular because it’s comforting to donors to know that no lifetime cost. This is money that comes out of your state. Lots of people have charity. They’re supporting. They wish they could doom or than they can while they’re living. I’m in that situation, but they can do for you. Crack a voice they can do for you, Mme. Or they could do more for you in their state. So that maybe their ultimate gift. It has to be for a lot of people again, remember, Modest, modest means donors of modest means that which they could do more, but they can’t. But that’s an advantage in that there’s no lifetime cost of these. Um okay, that’s really pretty much all I wanna say about requests. Uh oh. Except for do they get a charitable deduction? Doesn’t matter, because these are people who love your love, your non-profit they’re already donating to you. These are the kinds of people were gonna include you in their will. So the charitable deduction, the estate tax deduction, Who knows what the state of it is gonna be in the future? We have no idea. Even within the next couple weeks and months, let alone 2030 years from now But that’s not the primary motivation for most planned gif ts. It’s not that it’s not the state tax deduction, so don’t worry about it. OK, the other one. We won’t talk about his living trusts. As I said, it’s set up. Um, Thio. Not for charitable purposes. They set it up. People set it up for, ah, expedience to get get things out of their estate faster. It works because there’s not a court supervised process like if if, like it is it with a will call that you might have heard this probate process jog in jail. But the probate process is the court supervising the distribution of your assets after your death and by the way, I was death. Let some people like to kind of you from eyes passing demise. The fact is, you know we’re gonna die, and that’s Ah, that’s just a part of plan e-giving. And I’m not saying when you talk to a donor, you’re saying When you die, we want you in our will. We want to be in your will. I’m not saying that, but between professionals, you know we can We can say death. So that’s what probate is that court supervised process, and the assets will get to, ah to, ah, ball beneficiaries quicker through a living trust. And that’s typically white set up. What’s your part in it? The trust has to say what happens at the donors at the death of the person who creates the trust. That’s your donor has to say what happens. Ah, lot goes to my husband, children, husband, wife, children, grandchildren. Your charity can be also one of those beneficiaries at the person’s death. You could be named. That’s what that’s what the value of the living trust is. And the Third World recovering is the name the beneficiary. That’s just, um, I’m gonna stop calling out my voice cracks. That’s the last one. I’m calling out the name beneficiary. Anything that has a death benefit. Think of life insurance. That’s the most common example. You gotta decide where this death buy-in fundez years ago, when when your donors there’s a policy on their life, where’s the money going to go? Most of it goes to husbands, wives, children, grandchildren. But maybe there’s a percentage for your charity. 5%. 10% somebody can carve out. We always say Family comes first. But after that, how about a small percentage for for our charity, but going beyond life insurance? Some retirement plans. IRAs 401 K’s for three B’s cept the small, small employer pensions. Um, some commercial annuities have death benefits. Some checking and savings accounts have on brokerage accounts have have death benefits to them. So anything that has a death benefit, your charity can be named. All right now we’re getting into the actual five minute marketing tips that I have. Let’s start with events drop. A few speaking points into remarks were already hosting. The event is not a plan giving event, but any kind of gala. Any event where you’re speaking, that’s probably everyone. Get them to say something about planned giving. You just need a couple of sentences. This is not even a well, I was gonna say not even a full paragraph. Two sentences could be a paragraph. This is not even a full minute. Literally. I’m excited. We’ve kicked off a campaign to encourage you to remember us. You know the organization in your will. It’s very simple to do and secures our work long into the future. For instance, you know then you can name a program or something that could be that could be endowed. I was talking about earlier, perpetually or you could just, you know, rattle off program that you have. You know, you can support any of our great programs. You want more information? Um, talk to There’s a director development in the corner, you know? You know her, talk to me, talk to whoever it is. That’s it. It’s like 34 sentences. Quick. It’s not the main part of the event by any means. Just we’ve kicked off a campaign. That’s a little news. Hook. Something interesting kicked off this campaign. I would love for you to be a part of it. It’s so simple. You could endow any of our great programs, support any of our great programs in the long term. Please talkto whoever it is. A t end of the program. That’s it. I didn’t even spend a minute. It’s a good thing that I’m gonna run out of time. I should have were simple. You’re out. Um, okay. Five minute marketing was duo more on events. Put your program. You already printing a program. For Pete’s sake, put something about plan giving in the program. Put a little mentioned. You know, I’m the evangelist for playing giving without the religious overtones of evangelism. But, you know, you’re doing the program. Same thing we’ve kicked off a campaign. I’m like, dictating it to you. Just start writing. We kicked off a campaign to encourage you to remember us in your will. It’s so simple to do secures our work long into the future. Your attorney is gonna need our legal name address and Tex, i d. Here they are. Boom. That’s it. Could you put that in your program? I’ll bet you can. Or, you know, if you don’t even wanna go that much, just say we kicked off a program. Talk to whoever it is, whoever the contact person is. Please, I would love to talk to you today. Get something in the program again, Not spending any more money. You’re already producing programs anyway. Kayman sample Ward is on social media contributor and the CEO of INTEND. The non-profit Technology Network Out, huh? In the Prophet Oregon? Yes. Wonderful welcome. Amy Wells. So many. I can’t name them. Uh, not that many more. A couple more. We gotta live. Listen love to. That’s coming later with second segment. Okay. Um okay, that’s it for events again. You’re not spending any more money already producing the program. Say something. You put something in your already speaking, put in a couple of dropping a couple sentences. Oh, my gosh. Um, print channels you doing newsletter or whether it’s print or email putting a sidebar with the same thing we kicked off a campaign. I love to have you participate. It’s so easy. All you need is our to include to include us in your will or you need your legal name. Tex I d and address. Here they are. Boom. Drop that into a sidebar on any whether it’s print or digital your annual report. Whether you do a printer digital, say something about planned giving in it also. Now I know some organizations I know we’re getting away from naming donors. I’ve learned that that’s in their annual report. It was always so cumbersome. You get the misspellings and I got so embarrassing the wrong levels. But if you’re naming them, if you’re naming donors in the annual report, include your plan giving donors any direct mail you might be doing drama buckslip in. You know, that’s a book of your buckslip 2/3 of a page you print three and page drop it in the same thing that I’ve been talking about kicked off a campaign. Love to have you participate. All your attorney needs is our legal name, Tex I d an address. Here they are. Boom. Drop that in. It’s 1/3 of a page. Doesn’t cost any more. Doesn’t increase your postage. Um, while you’re doing that while you’re printing on direct mail printing envelopes on the envelope flap the flap that you got a print the envelopes anyway. Ah, check off box. Send me information on including your organ. The name, of course. In my will, little checkoff. Everybody reads that. Everybody sees the envelope flap so easy. Um, I think I’m gonna wrap it up. Dahna Sam nods. All right, so, uh well, time flies. Holy cow. It’s amazing. Things show is out of control. What a show. Um, okay, that’s five minute marketing for planned giving. And what’s fair game with Maria? Simple is coming up. I’m raving like a lunatic. I gotta take a nap after listening to all this, but in my defense. I plan too much. The host is much better. I am much the host with the president, are much better at, um, planning segments with guests, then planning my own 25 or so 26 minute segment. So that’s the reason for the raving lunacy. So everybody probably just wanted to take a nap or a tranquilizer or something, all right, and we’ll I’ll talk slower from now on. Holy go. But there’s a lot of good info. I mean, what you gonna do? There’s there’s tons of information had to squeeze it in. All right, it happens to be time for another break. What do you know? Cougar Mountain Software koegler Mountain software is simple to use, and the support is phenomenal. With a program like QuickBooks, you don’t have support. If you don’t have support, it’s worth nothing. So says Christine Christiansen. She’s the owner of interesting small business out in Colorado. Production of sheet metal, stainless steel, aluminum. Very interesting. But they don’t worry about keeping the books straight. They can focus on the sheet metal and stainless steel, and they are worried about their books. Just like you want to focus on your mission and not worry about keeping your book straight. Cougar Mountain. They have a free 60 day trial at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two and ah, finger wag about planned e-giving relationships. I just want you to be cautious with ease because as you embark on Oren, build your planned e-giving program, we’re gonna be talking a lot of people in their sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, maybe even hundreds. And, um, they can, uh, can be a little some. Some can be a little needy, even vulnerable, perhaps. So you just wanna keep your relationships with these folks professional, All right? And I say more about that in my video, I might do a follow up on tips for actually howto latto navigate this. Not just that you should. Not just what, but, uh, maybe this time you know the how of avoiding ah avoiding problems for your non-profit on the video is what to avoid in your plan giving relationships. It’s at tony martignetti dot com, and that is to take two. Let’s do the live love. It’s gotta go out. It’s going out. Thio Braila, California Huntington Park, California Troy New York, Newark, New Jersey Doral, Florida A man were all over Cool. TAMPA, Florida We’ve got multiple Florida, California, New York, New Jersey. Uh, multiple New York, New York. Love to see that. Thank you. Live love out to each of those locations. Um, And going abroad, we got Moscow, Russia. Banjarmasin, Indonesia. Indonesia. Checks in once in a while. Thank you very much. Indonesia. Live labbate to you. Seoul, Korea. Annual haserot comes a ham. Nida soul often listening also Tehran, Iran. You’ve been frequent. Thank you. Tehran for being with us. Jakarta, Indonesia. Also been showing up occasionally. Thank you. Indonesia. Um Madrid. Buenos Tardes, Madrid, Spain Buenos Star Days. Where’s Japan? I don’t see Japan today. I’ll send out konnichi wa. Maybe you’re maybe your master disguised. Maybe. Maybe, uh, maybe Japan is hiding in a zoo appearing a soul. Not that they’re that close, but, uh, probably not. Anyway, konnichiwa and live love out to each of our live listeners. So glad you’re with us. And the podcast pleasantries got to go out to our podcast listeners whenever they squeeze the show in. Maybe it’s into there. They’re, um, their podcast listening day. They’re binge day wherever you squeeze us in car washing, car driving, dishwashing painting. I’ve erred. Thank you. Pleasantries out to our podcast audience the vast majority of our audience there. Pleasantries to you. Now let’s Ah, let’s join up with Maria Simple and, uh, find out what’s fair game. Maria Semple has been patiently waiting. You know her. Aside from a patient waiter, she’s the prospect. Find her. She’s a trainer and speaker on Prospect Research. Her latest book is Magnify Your Business Tips, Tools and Strategies for Growing Your Business or Your non-profit. She’s Our Doi End of dirt. Cheap and free ideas. She’s at the prospect finder dot com and at Maria Simple. And she’s on the phone. Hello, Maria. Hello, Tony. How are you today? I’m doing great. My voice. I said I was gonna do that. Linda. Lifestyle Kowski joined us. Hello, Linda. Um Jackie Like and says hello from Nova. Hel Hello, Jackie. I wish you were coming to the beach. She bagged out on me. Um Okay. Maria. Yeah. It’s good to talk to you. Last time was very brief on the 3 50 That’s right. That’s right. And now we’re plugging ahead to your 4 400 shell, right? That’s correct. It’ll be July 2018. Absolutely. In the meantime, we, uh we want to talk about ethics. And what’s What’s fair game? What? You deal with this every single time. You’re doing an assignment for a client, right? Yeah. Yeah, that’s right, Tony. I mean, you know, when we’re talking about prospect research and we’re thinking about all the various tools that we have available to us as prospect researchers, you know, we have to think about, um, what’s available in the public domain, because that’s the thing that’s going to be really important to keep in mind that a donor has the right to come in at any time and asked to see what information you may have compiled on them. So you want to make sure that that you’re always using sources that are available in the public domain. So where we kind of get into some gray areas are in the area of social media sites? Yes, OK, and I think that’s a very, very good test. Never put anything in your C. R M database that you wouldn’t want a donor to read. I think that’s a good test What do you think? Yeah. Yeah, And I think even even in the way that you’re writing up your reports, try and think about it as an investigative reporter trying not to put subjective statements in there even if they may have been, uh, sort of subjective statements that you might have heard, Uh, you know, through the grapevine from volunteers or board members or whatever about somebody’s the lifestyle or their marital status or whatever it may be, you know, try and just put a statement in there. You know, like whatever the couple divorced and x y Z Day 10. You know, leave it at that. I don’t think anybody would take offense to that very objective. A bunch of people just joined us on Facebook. So I got to tell you that we’re talking about the ethics of plan of of prospect research and what’s appropriate to be documenting and finding about potential donors. And I want to welcome Michael Zeller, attorney, North Carolina. Charlotte just hosted an outstanding 50th birthday party. Oh, my God, Michael, That was outstanding, you know, I know that. You know, I feel that rob maker good to see a rab welcome and dahna Gillespie, dahna Gillespie Rivera. But I know I know yours. Dahna Gillespie. Welcome. Um, Okay, so but there can be great value in the end. What you find in social media, of course. I mean, people put a lot of stuff on social, and their privacy settings are typically, I think, generally not set the way they want them. And but so there can be a lot of prospect research gold in in the networks, right? Yeah, that’s right. So, you know, what I thought we might do is just sort of talk about sort of the top three networks for a couple of minutes, like the linked in Facebook and Twitter, and maybe try and figure out what type of information can we glean? Um, and should we be gleaning it, Should we be using it? You know, even if we were to stumble upon it, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you put it into the c. R. M or we’re into a written report. Yeah, okay. It’s anarchist, but that’s way could do it that way. I, you know, I was thinking of some of the things that that you could find out. I mean, you can find out about divorce, right? You know, I’ve had friends. I’ve had two friends who were posting about suicidal, suicidal thoughts, you know, I don’t know. Probably a lot of people see that. But, I mean, that’s very disturbing, but doesn’t belong in a prospect. Research report, maybe. I don’t know. Um, maybe if you’re looking for that plan Gift. Uh, let’s not go there. Okay? I’m gonna let you off the hook, but let’s go. Let’s go over that skip over that. Um okay. You know, in the words very sensitive stuff. Okay, So you want. All right? You want to start with? It works. All right, let’s start with now to me. Linked in to me. Anything on LinkedIn is fair game in a prospect research report, that is, that is that am I overstating? Am I oversimplifying? Yeah. I think that anything you find on Lincoln, especially since Lincoln has what they call a public profile that is out there. It is searchable on Google. It will come up on page one of Google’s search results. If you if you Google your prospects name, they’re linked in profile is going to be there, So yes, indeed. anything that you find there is going to be a public domain. And this is sometimes very valuable information you’ll be able to find out, You know, their longevity at various companies, maybe some of the companies that they’ve been associated with, um may have been for a long period of time. Maybe they’ve got some stock that they’ve accumulated from within that company. So you might want to think about steering the conversation in the direction of appreciated securities. Okay, Okay, but wait, We want to focus, too, on the ethics. So So basically, LinkedIn is do you consider linked in to be wide open? Yes. Okay. Absolutely. Okay. You’ll see any ethical questions around anything that people might find in linked in. No, not not what they might find. But the ethical question might come in as to how you as the prospect researcher or the executive director or the development staff using linked in how you might have your own privacy setting set up in such a way that, um, you know what other people can see once you’ve looked at their profile? Right. So you have three choices on linked in you either have people know that you’re looking at their profile, your face, your title and where you work right are going to follow you everywhere on linked in that headline and a picture. So that’s full transparency. When you have your privacy settings set up that way, that means they get to see you’ve been looking at them, and you get to see who’s been looking at your profile. But Lincoln has two other privacy settings. One is sort of a semi private where you could be a management consultant in X y Z industry in New York City area. Or you could be anonymous. When you’re in one of those two modes, then people will not know that you’ve been looking at their profile. Okay? And we have covered this before. You know, this is what I consider fully dressed topless and naked. Uh, look, I got a chuckle out of Maria. Simple. She’s probably the only one That’s okay. I amused myself. People should know, you know, if you don’t think I’m funny, I’m amusing myself. That’s the most important. Um, and I forgot to shut out Joan Pell xero. I’m sorry, Joan. I skipped over you. I scrolled up and then I lost you. John Pelzer on Facebook. Thanks for so much for being with us. And also Ralf, Asante and, uh and, uh, Aunt Mary Mary Michalowski joined. Hello, mary-jo. Thanks for joining us on Facebook. I might do this more often. This is cool. Um all right. So ethically linked in safe. Now, let’s go to ethical conundrum where you want to go? Next on Lee Anarchist, I’ll give it to you where it’s like you want to go to the O. What network? Facebook. Okay, Wide open. Okay. Yeah. That’s the network where people are really sharing about their family, their pictures way. No, this So what? What do we do with what do we do if we find something that we believe is compromising like, let’s say, a divorce that that maybe they don’t want the organization to know. But maybe that’s just what that’s just one example, but compromising but valuable to the organization. How do we deal with that again? I think go back to original statement. If it’s going to, um, if it’s going to jeopardize your relationship with that donor or that donor prospect, I think you leave it out of the conversations you leave it out of the C r M u leave it off of written reports. So if you could just sort of have that is your bellweather. I think it will serve you well, okay. And also, you’re your organization might have social media guidelines in place, So check that out first, as as your you you may have certain guidelines that you with an organization have decided upon. So, um, if that is the case, anybody knew that you’re bringing into the organization should be aware of the social media guidelines, both in terms of how they’re going to use social media for are on behalf of the organization. But there may also be, you know, standards of conduct, but they’re expecting of you is an employee’s. So again default back to that statement and default back to your own bellwether your instincts. If it feels like it’s going to jeopardize that relationship, don’t put the info in there. Also, APRA the the Professional Association for Prospect Researchers has a statement on ethics, and we’re gonna talk about that after the break. So if your organization doesn’t have, you know, you might be a small organization without a social media policy as it relates to prospect research. APRA can help you out. We’ll get to that. Okay, I like you’re like you’re like your guidelines. All right. We have just a couple minutes before a break, like a minute and 1/2 a minute. What’s the next network you want to talk about? Was it twitter waken? Talk about Twitter. That one probably won’t take long. You know, Twitter is one of those social media platforms that people might be using, especially these days with regard thio their politics. So whether you and that might be important for you to know about, depending on what type of organization that you are so again, if it’s knowing someone’s politics is important, you know, maybe checking out to see if they’ve got a Twitter feed might be something you want to check out. It seems like you Twitter, you’re less likely to find something compromising. It’s possible, but less likely to find something compromising on it. Okay, let’s take a break when we come back, I got of course, I got live listen, love podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections naturally, but also will get into the APRA ethics ethics statement little about that and we’ll see what else we had. Stay with us. Okay, let’s take our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories and building support for your work, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for what’s fair game? Welcome back. And I feel like starting with the with the shout outs Thio our listeners. I’m gonna start with Facebook, but I don’t because it’s a fairly new formats. Only second time have done a Facebook live. So thank you, everybody on Facebook. I believe I have shattered out everybody who joined us. Thank you for being there. Can I ask you to do Ah, one or two things like it and share it like it and share it? I think we know how to do that. I’d be grateful on Facebook. Thank you very much. Live listener love got to in Germany. Guten tog Multiple. So multiple Germany and, um Seoul, Seoul, South Korea. Always checking in so soul you’ve been on our minds. Obviously a lot on your haserot cancer ham Nida coming back into the U. S. Tampa, Florida, Woodbridge, New Jersey. Matthews, North Carolina and Staten Island and New York, New York. Multiple New York City. Thank you Multiple Manhattan, New York Appreciate that. Staten Island. Thank you for being with us. Love it only to Burrows. I don’t know. Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx. All right, Next time we have had a show way had a couple shows. Where was all five boroughs? And then, of course, the podcast pleasantries over 12,000 listeners. Listen, that’s why you know, I don’t know if you put two and two together. It takes me over seven years to do that. But that’s why we have such loyal sponsors, because there are over 12,000 people listening to the podcast. So you know how grateful I am because it makes the show so much more fulfilling when there are sponsors, you know, helping me out. Basically, I mean, how else can I say it? So thank you for listening. You are attracting the sponsors to the show, and and I do mean attracting the ones I announced it on the 3/50. Coming up wet nurse e p. A’s Um, that’s the only definite one that I said There may be another one and there may, uh, still talking them, but they’re coming to me, so thank you. That’s over 12,000 podcast listeners each week pleasantries to you and the affiliate affections to our AM and FM station listeners through out the country. I’m not sure where you are, but what am I think I know exactly where you are. And I even know when each station puts me in their schedule us. I prefer the US puts us in their schedule someone our block during the week. And I’m glad that on on your station it could be Saturday morning. Might be Tuesday night. Whatever. Affiliated affections to our AM and FM listeners Thank you for being with us, thanks to your stations for carrying non-profit Radio multi-channel Amy’s have award will love that were multi-channel We’ve been for years and now we got a new channel. I’ve discovered Facebook only took me seven years cutting edge cutting edge. Uh what Pioneer? Yeah, right. Um okay, so, Maria simple. Thank you for being patient again. So patient Prospect Researcher Thank you. Um, a lot of gabbing today. I’m off on tangents. All right. I feel like a Facebook buy-in here. I don’t know. Um, no, you’re not giving yourself enough credit. You’ve been on Facebook for a long time. It’s just that you’ve not been using that brand spanking new life live. Yeah, I’m not sure. It’s quite brand spanking new, but thank you. Thank you for you. That’s the point. Thank you for driving home that point and character. Chicken Master just joined Karen. Welcome on Facebook. Good to see you. Thanks for being here. Okay, so we’re talking about the ethics of prospect research. Oh, my God. There’s tons more. How come they don’t show up on my phone? Because why? They’re in a group. That shit. Oh, my God. There’s hundreds. Well, dozens more scores, more than dozens scores more. Okay, I don’t think I should do all those, but thank you if you’re on Facebook. And I did not shout you out from from Beth Granger toe Harriet Steinberg to Melinda Roth Epstein to Eric Mendelssohn. Thank you for being with us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. So I’m Maria. Um All right, So where do we go from here? Let’s talk about the APRA s o appa Appa a pr A. It started out as the American Prospect Research Association. Then it became the Association of Professional Researchers for advancement. Now it’s just apra So they’ve done to me. That’s an abandonment of roots. They’re just apurate apurate where Apple doesn’t mean anything to me. Ready after all along they’ve been after all along I know it’s nufer different things that I object to this rewrite of history like next it’s gonna be we’re gonna be taking down statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. I was around, I was around when they made that shift and this is the reason for it. They used to be just the American Prospect Research Association, But now association really envelopes people from all parts of the world, so they wanted to be able to, you know, have that reflective of their their membership base. So now it’s the association’s professional researchers. It’s like AARP. They don’t want to be the Association of retired American Association of Retired Persons anymore. They haven’t been for years. It’s a history rewrite. I don’t mind change, but when it benefits me, but it never does. That’s why the world is to change without my consent. I don’t grasp. All right, let’s talk about their code of ethics anyway. So they have this ethical code, and it does relate to social media specifically. So Right. So one thing I see is a balance for trying to balance Thean vivid Jewel’s right to privacy with the needs of the institution. Did I like doing that? Yes, you did. Actually, it is very, very important that that that balance is kept for sure. Okay, Yes. So drilling down on that, What about friends they talk about? Should you be a friend to potential donors, people you’re researching? That’s a no No, right? Uh, yes. In terms of the ethics statement that Apple put forth that that is correct. They would really recommend that you do not friend were really enter into a personal relationship with prospects or donors. Now, Lincoln could be, you know, a completely different platform. Right? Because now we’re talking about a business social platform. Okay. All right. Um um all right, so but, friend, what about this? Seems like middle ground. What about following somebody on Twitter? if you’re a prospect researcher. Yeah. I mean, I think that that would be okay to be a follower on on on Twitter because, you know, they’re again Twitter feeds are very public. And so, you know, I don’t think there’d be any issue there. Okay, But you need to disclose who you are. That’s also in the statement. In these guidelines, you need to disclose that you’re a prospect researcher for the organization. Do you need to say that? Well, you know, sometimes people will individually have ah, personal Twitter account. So that’s the only the only twitter account that you’re following people from them. Then you know that is it? Yeah. So I think you have to start looking at your staff and determining which staff members are on Twitter. Our Is it the organization that’s going to be a follower of that individual on Twitter and again, two very different to two very different things. Okay, Okay. What about corroboration? If you find something on a social network, is there an obligation as a prospect researcher to corroborate it from from another source, or like, almost like a journalist or or no. Yeah, if you can Absolutely again is personal versus business information that’s going to probably make a difference in terms of what you’re going to try and source in terms of corroboration. But if you are thinking about having somebody make a major gift to your organization and you stumble across something on social media, that gives you an indication that this might not be the right time to make that. Because you might have seen something going on on somebody’s personal Facebook feed, you might just double check with you, Noah boardmember that knows them well or something like that. And just ask, you know, if they know anything about the timing is still a good time to talk to that individual. Okay, Marie Simple. We gotta leave it there. You’ll find the apparatus. Social Media Ethics statement at APRA home dot or GE after home dot org’s Maria Semple. Thank you so much for having me My pleasure. Absolutely. You’ll find her at the Prospect Finder, and she’s at Maria Simple. You should be following her on Twitter if you’re not, uh, it’s your life. Next week we have Amy Sample Ward returning to talk about in real life community building. If you missed any part of today’s show, I’d be seat you find it on tony martignetti dot com Responsive by Wagner c. P A is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the Talking Alternate network. Thank you. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time And listen for new ideas on my show Beyond potential Live life Your way on talk radio dot n Y C. I’m the aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media. My guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. 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Nonprofit Radio for September 20, 2019: Wounded Charity

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Doug White: Wounded Charity
Author and consultant Doug White returns with his latest book, “Wounded Charity,” positing that the 2016 allegations against Wounded Warrior Project were mostly untrue and that the organization’s board failed. Join us for a provocative and thoughtful analysis.

 

 

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Transcript for 458_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190920.mp3.mp3 Processed on: 2019-09-20T19:10:34.517Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…09…458_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190920.mp3.mp3.868378293.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/09/458_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190920mp3.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I turn drama Tropic if you unnerved me with the idea that you missed today’s show. Wounded Charity author and consultant Doug White returns with his latest book, Wounded Charity, positing that the 2016 allegations against Wounded Warrior Project were mostly untrue and that the organization’s board failed. And the media. Oi Doug brings a provocative and thoughtful analysis on Tony’s take to take caution in your plan. E-giving relationships Responsive by witness E. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Witnessed gps dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. What a pleasure to welcome back to the studio. It’s good to be Don’t wait. Yes, he’s the author, teacher and advisor, two nonprofit organizations and philanthropists. He’s said he’s the soul. That’s the only part they want occupying those three those three categories. He’s co chair of the full proof foundations Walter Cronkite Project Committee and a governing boardmember of the Secular Coalition of America. He’s the former director of Columbia University’s master of science in fund-raising management program. Before that, he was academic director at New York University’s heimans Center for Philanthropy and fund-raising. That’s where we first met. His latest book is Wounded Charity. Lessons Learned From the Wounded Warrior Project Crisis will be published early October, and that’s what brings him back to non-profit radio. Welcome back as I say, It’s good to see you again. A pleasure. You’re our first live guest in our new studio. I can smell the paint. I can t o and the elevators better intoxicating. The elevator is bigger. There’s more than one, and it’s you. It sounds different to me. Uh, we got it. We got to get some things up on the wall, but it feels good. Just welcome to the new space. Well, thank you. It’s good to be a part of it. Um, yeah. Wounded warrior project. Very interesting. You’re You uncover some things that a lot of people do not know. Um, and you say that you’re actually you’re offended, Earl. I think early in the book you say that you’re offended by what happened to Wounded Warrior Project. The reaction that the board had you took offense at this. I did. But not at first. Because when you hear something on CBS or read something in The New York Times, you tend to think it’s true. And before I go too far, I want to make sure that people know that I like CBS News. I like most of the networks and I think the world of The New York Times. But this is a story that they got wrong and it was egregiously wrong and upon having learned what did happen, I am offended. I’m offended by the lack of journalistic standards. I’m offended by the way the board behaved. And every time I ask somebody about this story, did you hear about what happened to a wounded warrior project? I’ll have reactions to Oh, that’s that fake charity. That’s the charity spent all the money wrong, and I say, Where did you hear that? And of course, he’ll tell me where they didn’t. Of course, that’s where thatwas the times and CBS. But then I say there is more to that story and most of what you know is wrong. More to it. You. Ah, Now, at the end, you call it a long, long, nurturing hit job. A long, marinating hit job That would be the freezer. Long magnetic it job is the phrase you Yes, way Have a full hour together. So we have plenty time. Thio flush this out. But say little about long marinating the two people who were fired the CEO and CEO Steve Nord Easy and Al Giordano were fired in March will probably do a CZ. We go forward with the story of this, but they were fired in March of 2016 after scathing reports out by CBS and The New York Times. And it would be easy to think then, logical to think that as a result of those reports, the board looked at their leadership and said, we’re going in the wrong direction. It is my opinion that that decision was made well before those reports came out. Now. Yeah. Okay. We’re gonna get to that. All right. Wonderful. Um So the claims in the media were were scathing money wasted on travel and entertainment costs were too high. Morale was low. Programs failing. Um, some watchdogs, charity navigator and charitywatch, specifically low grades. Um, yes, this was This was all January 2016 a CZ you’ve said New York Times and CBS, but not in that order. Give us Give that what happened at CBS and then The New York Times And what was said I was home about nine o’clock on Tuesday night the 26th of January and enjoying my, I think, second bourbon when I got a text from a good friend of mine and someone you may know to Laura Fredericks. Oh, sure texted me and said, Did you see what CBS said about Wounded Warrior Project? And she’s also on the board off another veteran’s organization. So she’s tuned into these kinds of things, and I said, No, I hadn’t. So I looked it up and watched it, and I thought, Wow, this is Ah, pretty scathing report because it said that they were spending money badly, that morale was bad and everything you’ve just mentioned. And I thought this sounds like something I would be interested in because, as you know, with other books, another work that I’ve done. I’ve been very critical of charities because I don’t think charity should be badly run. I think they should be well run by people who care about the work they do and having a charitable ethos. And so I’m my intent are up when it comes to bad behavior charities. And so I thought, Well, this is just another example of that because I had no contact with Wounded Warrior Project Before this time, however, I had contact with a reporter of The New York Times about six or maybe four weeks prior. I had been called by day Phillips, who ended up doing this report about Wounded Warrior project, and at that point I knew nothing more than what was publicly available. You know, the information that was publicly available on nine nineties and other reports, and basically his take with our conversation, which, by the way, lasted about an hour or an hour and 15 minutes. What is the ethos behind an organization that is, that is growing so quickly? Is there a problem with that? Inherently. What about their programs? And all I could speak to was with what I knew publicly, and it was all very positive. I said, I get it That that there are criticisms. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying they’re perfect, but I can’t see anything wrong with them. We ended that I think on a fairly good note. And I had no clue that he was working on this kind of a story. And I’ll tell you this much at that point, I don’t think he waas right. You think he changed his slant of the story when CVS came out with what you saw, I well, they knew CBS was coming. I mean, what happened was that Tuesday night, I knew it was gonna be a three part series on CBS. I wanted I did, right? Dave Phillips. And I said, Are you aware that CBS now has this big story scooping you? Yeah. And so I thought, this is not good. My answer came the next boarding When I read the New York Times when that story was in the New York Times above the front page above the fold. That’s correct. Now what? So I was curious about this. Why would the times if if you’re right, why would they slant the story because of what? Because of the direction CBS took. Why couldn’t they take their own tack if they were Maur? If you felt that Dave Phillips was Maur neutral about about wounded warrior, Yeah, and I think in the long haul of things I want to be gentle with Dave Phillips because I don’t think he’s the bad guy here. And I think I know he’s a very good reporter. I think what he had was what I call an evergreen story. It was not something that had a deadline to it nearly did, by the way, the CBS take have a deadline to it. But it was much more salaciousness. And so I think he tried to catch up to that salaciousness. That’s what I think happened. But he wasn’t finding that. And you don’t You don’t pursue this in the book. But it was a question I had. He wasn’t finding that in his You don’t think in his in his own in his own research, not originally. But then he got talking to people who are on a Facebook page. We’re all malcontents, former employee employees. And so he got inside the second chamber and listen to it after a while. And when he went down to wounded warrior project in Jacksonville, he had many interviews. Many of them were very positive in all of them. Got put on to the cutting room floor. So he at that point had shifted because CBS came into the picture late, like in December s so late, 2015. And so I think he had timeto switch gears. Okay, we have Thio take a first break, and that is for Wagner. CPS. They have a wagon or on September 25th Exempt or non exempt. You need to classify and pay everyone correctly under the Fair Labor Standards Act. And you need to document what you’re doing. Wepner will explain it so you can understand it. Weather cps dot com Click Resource is and upcoming events. If you missed it, live so many of our podcast listeners. I can understand that. Then go to re sources and recorded events. All right, let’s go back to ah, wounded charity. Um, so he so he caught up with the salacious side of it. All right, I’m still alright. This Yeah, There was the malcontent employees Echo chamber. All right, so Wonder Warrior Christ Wounded Warrior Project now has a crisis. There was a three part series on CBS over what, Over two nights a night the next morning of the following night. Oh, that’s right there and one in the morning and then the following night. And they’ve got this New York Times with peace. Which came the guest, the 27th of January. What is the board do? The board hires Simpson Thatcher law firm here and a group called FT I, which is accounting firm to do an audit of the organization’s finances. They did that almost immediately, probably within a few hours of the reports coming out because they wanted to find out what was going on with regard to the accusations that money was being misspent. They also at the same time silenced the CEO. Stephen aren’t easy stating our Daisy is a pretty savvy guy. Probably one of the better CEOs. What was his age at this point? Him and al what were their ages? They’re not really young, but they’re not old. I would say they’re probably in their fifties. Okay? Yeah, something normal helps me on. I think they’re about the same age they came through the world with the veterans world. Kind of the same time. At any rate, um, they were told they couldn’t talk to anybody. And Steve actually was very media savvy and good person in many ways said to the board, This is not the right strategy, because we’re gonna be out there hanging without any story. And we’re not even responding. He wants to get ahead of it. He wants to get ahead of grab it. Yes, like you would advise your own clients to do in an emergency. Silence is bad because the story takes story goes on without you. The stood out without your part of it. Well said, Well, that didn’t happen. And so he was muzzled. Reinardy xero Steve. Not easy as a CEO. Yes, Al Al Giordano CEO. Yes, two Italians. But what you didn’t pursue the Italian American discrimination pathway into this thing? These two, these two screaming Italians nor D. C. And Giordano railroaded by the board. You didn’t pursue that? You know, you’re the Italian American sentiment on the warrior project. Most of the lack of intellectual curiosity. Okay, I’ll help you. Thank you. Bring me in. Silences them now I had another something curious CBS offers. Did he say? Nor Deasy or not? D. C Easy, easy. Okay, The proper princessa Ditzy what? You wouldn’t zizi like brothers pizza? You don’t say Pisa pizza. Nor did Marty Martin, yet martignetti CBS offers, nor D z Rebuttal time. They offer him substantial time on a morning some on one of their morning shows with Formerly With Charlie Rose. Why did they do? And they say And they say in the email Ah, lot of time like we usually give guests three minutes, we’ll give you twice that or something like that and we’ll be willing to talk about other opportunities for you to be on CBS on other shows. Why did they offer that? Did they sense that that they had something wrong? Oh, I know they sensed they had something wrong. I mean, there’s nothing that says it on paper to my knowledge, but there could not be any other conclusion after watching this. And also there were people who talk to Gil. There were some internal e mails from internal emails that I was able to put my hands on that showed that there was something really wrong here. Why would CBS offer them or offer Steve This? This could have been an effort on their part to kind of come clean. But Steve knew that this this was baked in already. I don’t feel like there was any any anything to gain by coming back and fighting that. Oh, I thought he would have taken the opportunity if the board had allowed him to. Oh, well, yeah, but the board didn’t allow him to write, so, you know, I don’t. And he’s been criticized. He’s been criticized for that, Uh, but he wasn’t allowed. You’re right. Now there’s a question. Uh, we could talk about this now. Sure should. Should he have or, you know, where do you, uh, ready to draw the line between obedience to the board and loyalty to the organization and say, Screw the board? I’m going ahead. That’s the last profound question that I asked in the book toward the end. And I think it’s an open ended question. I don’t know the answer to that. Boardmember has, ah duty of loyalty to the organization. Staff member has duties to both the organization and to the board. When you see that the board is going in a different direction. From where you see the organization going, you have a profound dilemma on your hands. One person was extremely critical of Steve for not bucking the board. I won’t use the language he gave me, but that language is in the book. But he said that Steve should have and Al should have buck them and gone public with everything they could at that time. And which person which questions that you know, that was quote okay. Yes, You have a lot, by the way. Lots of footnotes couldn’t you couldn’t have cut the footnotes down 370 foot notes. It’s really got to go to the back of the book all the time to see this. It means a substantial because I was taught in law school. You always read the footnotes. You know that the footnotes used to be in academia couldn’t put them at the bottom. It’s so much easier when they’re the bottom of the page. But that looks bad. People won’t read books like it looks like it. Then it looks like an academic journal. That’s yeah, and it’s important to may toe have these facts correct. And this is not true about a lot of things that are written in general. And so I want to be sure that especially in a situation like this and I was this way with the book on Princeton, too, wanted to make sure that everything that I said was backed up in people new words being backed up. In fact, just to go down that line for a minute. I do worry and always do worry about what I have an anonymous quote. I don’t want people to think I made it up. And so I’ve asked people, attorneys and other people in the world of ethics and non-profits. How do I make sure that people don’t think I did that? And there’s really no way. Just, you know, the authority is otherwise there, so they’re gonna have to take your word for it. It’s like the times when they come out with an anonymous source, got to take their word for it. But that means that eyes the author have to take a lot of responsibility and have a lot of integrity, or try to have integrity anyway in the process. That’s why you have the footnotes Okay. Okay. It’s a yes, I imagine you have. You have a spreadsheet somewhere that says anonymous quote. Footnote number 2 14 Is this person? Yes. Something like that. So, Yeah, I do. We do have to trust you, and your lawyers will never see it. I can tell you that no matter what you do. Okay? You’ve assured everyone a lien on it. All right? So now nor D. C. And reinardy, xero, Dizzy and Giordano, highly rated by the board before this before this occurred. Yes. Talk about that talk about and how wounded Warrior Project was doing. Let’s give them their due now. Wounded. Well, they don’t need their do now. They’re just They’ve always been a great organ. I meant now in the show. Oh, in the show. Just at this point in our time together. Let’s do it. Great organization. It grew from a fairly small organization in the early two thousands. John Milius started it with backpacks out of his basement to take up. He noticed that when he got out of being wounded, Hey, didn’t have any essentials like a toothbrush or a water bottle or things like that. He said I’m gonna put together backpacks and take him up to Walter Reed. He was in Virginia and give them a way. That was really the way it got started. And at the same time, because there was a fellow out in Long Island. Peter Hoener Camp was also concerned about veterans coming back. He started something called Soldier Ride on DDE that raised money for Wounded Warrior Project. So they began to make money a few years after John Milius started it for real. And when Steve and Al came into the scene to really become the leaders of the organization from a staff perspective, they started. They said What? I think all charities need to do more off. They said, What is our task here? And when they defined their task of taking care of veterans when they’re coming back from 9 11 posted an 11 conflict, the money that it would take would be X. And they said, Okay, we’re gonna go out and raise X. It wasn’t like, Okay, we’re gonna raise $1000 see what we can do. What they say. They had an entirely different mindset and a good one, but as you can imagine, Tony. It was somewhat in conflict with the way the mindset works at many charities. So the pursuit of the money became itself something controversial at anyway. They grew and grew, and by the time they left they were earning almost $400 million which is pretty big. They went from 10 to $400 million in a decade, basically, and they had 20 programs. All of them were working. They were quantifying their results and from a an impact respect of the big word today and non-profits his impact. They were already doing it. They were already doing it from a quantitative and qualitative perspective for for many years prior to this point, they were doing a good job, and I think they still are. The vision, I think is reduced, and it’s a smaller organization right now, but it’s still a good organization. I don’t want to say anything bad about the organization today, but it’s a different organization. And nor did see not Dizzy and Giordano, as I said, highly rated by the board. Okay, let me get back to that because you did ask that a few months before they left their ratings and by the way, there prior ratings were all consistent with this. We’re fabulous. They were great. And Steve said, Well, look now I think we ought to slow down and start to become a different kind of order. We are becoming a different kind of organization, so we need to look at it in a more sophisticated way. We’re going to slow down a little bit. We won’t be pushing the gas pedal is hard, and what we want to do is make sure that we’re really serving everyone to the fullest that we can on DDE. That always reflected in those in those reports that the that the board had done on the board hired a firm to do this. And so they all concluded that they were doing a great job. This is just a few months earlier, and so it was really start when when this happened, the crisis came along. The reports just a few months after the glowing review by the board, and then a month later, the board says, we need to change very cryptic and very unsatisfying. In fact, after the two were fired in March, I think was the 16th of March in 2016 Tony Odierno went on the Bill O’Reilly show, and Bill O’Reilly was always a very big supporter of the wounded warrior project. Odierno. It’s board, chair and audio was the board chair, Thank you. And at that point he stepped in. His theory of an amputee also. Yeah, and basically his father was a war hero. He was the head of the military command over there. And so he’s a Tony. Odierno is, I’m sure, a very fine, upstanding, good person. He wouldn’t return any of my phone calls, but that’s another issue. I think that he’s probably a very good person, no reason to doubt that. But he so he came in. He had a full time job here in New York. Kayman is an acting CEO, and he was interviewed by Bill O’Reilly, and O’Reilly said, Why did you fire me? So we needed a change of culture? No, Riley, to his credit, said, Well, what does that mean culture? What it was this culture thing that’s going on here? Well, we really needed a change of culture. I’m making you have the transcript and you have the transcripts segment in the book. Yeah, but basically said that we needed a repeated himself. We need a change of culture, know, really, if you remember him on the show, is kind of a pugnacious fellow, and he said, and this is a friend, you know, This is a friendly interview He said, Well, what does that mean? Again and again, Tony said the same thing. And Cody Bill O’Reilly was just flummoxed. Why don’t you answer this? You’re not answering my question. And he said, Basically, since you’re not answering it, I guess we just don’t have anything more to talk about. Very frustrating and what it really? In addition to your alley’s frustration, the problem was that Tony did not have a good answer because there was no good answer. They were essentially saying the organization in their responses to the reports. The organization is fine, but we need to make a change of leadership. Yes, that was the 22 contradictory statements. Exactly. So you have a report that comes out in March, this report that was done by Simpson Thatcher saying basically everything that the media said was wrong. Still, we need a change in culture. We need a change and so and I got a hold of a letter that Simpson This report, by the way, was not written. Okay? There was no right. It was orelon. But there was a letter written Thio Grassley, Senator Grassley who was looking into this. That’s the letter I looked at. And Simpson Thatcher said, Well, clearly, Odierno, Excuse me is clearly reinardy Z and xero dahna have to go. I’m thinking clearly. What? What’s so clear about that? Everything you’ve said so far is supporting the work that they’ve done. And so where is this coming from? The report vindicated them. The report vindicated. There s so we’re getting to the long marinating hit job theory. Well, the report vindicated them. And as part of that report, they said, Well, there are some some tweaks we should make here. You know, there are some things that as a growing organization, you should do a little bit better. Well, by golly, what organization does not have that is it? It was like policy. Some of the policies and procedures need to be right. Revised, but they’re experiencing explosive growth. I mean, it’s not uncommon for policies the lag behind growth as you’re trying to raise more money and do more programs, and both Steve and Al were seasoned at growing. They knew what they were doing. And so if you take that, you say that doesn’t make sense. What also doesn’t make sense is that a few years earlier, Simpson Thatcher also did a report on the Clinton Foundation, and they were scaling. This is a conflict of interest here. There are no policies. Everything’s wrong. There’s just like it’s crazy now, one scintilla of a recommendation to replace anyone at the Clinton Foundation here. Everything’s going well. We have a few things that we think we should, you know, upgrade. But you know, those two guys that have authored this entire success for the last decade, they need to go clearly. Let’s bring in Richard Jones. That’s a good time for him. He’s on the board of Wounded Warrior project. Uh, still is. I meant at the time. But he still is. Yeah. You say he remained. I didn’t know if he still is today. Okay, I think he’s going off the board at the end of this, Okay? But I think you still think it’s the last line of your book. Richard Jones remained. Yes. Um, but he’s on a couple of other boards and he’s got a He’s got a duty of loyalty to CBS as well. Talk about him. Well, I can only remember offhand right now. One of those two other boards and one was Dixon House. The other was the Veterans Family Institute for Vets and Military Families. E M F. Thank you. And there were a lot of organizations that I implied earlier who didn’t feel comfortable with wounded warrior projects. Growing success. And these were two of them and he was on those boards. And so he comes in. I believe in 2014 or 2015 I get the years a little bit off. It was after the Super Bowl. CBS dedicated the Super Bowl add to the Wounded Warrior Project, and I think he had something to do with it all. Good. So after that, he wants to be on the board of Wounded Warrior Project, and I asked Steve about this and I asked him other board members. Richard Jones didn’t talk to you know, I didn’t see any interview note for them. Well, the interview note that I do have in there is that he didn’t talk to me. Okay, um, when I show what I asked him, I asked all of the boardmember is the same thing, and nobody talked to me. But he was on the boards of these two other organizations that itself wouldn’t so much. It would raise a little bit of a red flag, but it would be disqualifying. I don’t believe, even though they might have known that these other two organizations were in opposition or really didn’t like W W. P. But there’s a lot of that going on. So it’s not the issue. The issue of the day. What really got my attention was that he was also a senior executive at CBS at the very time this was going on. And the criticism that CBS had of Wounded Warrior project was the very area that Richard really Jones was overseeing. I thought there was a conflict there and and a story I still do. You know, I feel it was very wrong, and I I’m I’m really interested in knowing why Richard Jones was allowed to be so much a part of not just wounded warrior project of the investigation that followed. Yeah, you question the board vetting of him when they when they invited him to come on, The fact that he’s a boardmember of two other competing organizations. Well, yeah, I do question esos veteran service organizations. Well, I don’t know that the other two are vey CVS. Oh, that’s a very specific designation. Okay, that’s okay. That same same world. And I wouldn’t call them. I would call him competing in the sense that they didn’t like Wounded Warrior project. They weren’t in the same league. And what I say that I’m not criticizing their size or anything there A lot of small organizations that are doing your job. It’s not that. But he came on and he he wanted a state and al to be fired. I did talk to board members who told me this that they he wanted them to be fired. And he insisted on the unanimous vote that they be fired. He insisted the vote be, you know, he was gonna He threatened to resign. That’s that’s strange. He threatened to resign if it wasn’t a unanimous vote to fire. Nor dizzy. And, uh um, Joe dahna. Yes. And this is, by the way, as a decide one person. It makes it sound so personal. Yes, it does, doesn’t it? Yeah. And then you have CBS doing this hit job, and it’s zee kind of a thicket of crazy questions coming around. All right, we gotta take, uh, take another break. We’re gonna bring in the charity evaluators, charity navigator and charity watch, too. Um, where are we now? We are with, um, Cougar Mountain Software, koegler Mountain. Simple to use. And the support is phenomenal. With a program like quick books, you don’t have support. If you don’t have support, it’s worth nothing. That’s quote Christine Christenson, the owner of Broomfield Cheap metal who uses obviously uses ku Commander. You can’t learn from a small business owner who loves the support at koegler Mountain. Of course you can. They have a free 60 day trial. You’ll find that on the listener landing page, which is at tony dot m a slash Cougar mountain. Now, time for Tony’s Take two your planned giving relationships. Um, when you, uh, inaugurate your plan giving program, you’re gonna be talking to people, mostly in their hundreds. I’ve never spoken to anyone over 100 but I’ve had probably hundreds of conversations with or thousands in all those decades but many, many with folks in their nineties. And, um, some of them are. It could be a little lonely and look for a little, you know, one a little more of your time on the personal side. And that could be a little risky for your plan giving program. And I flush that all out in, ah, my video. What to avoid in your plan giving relationships. And you will find that you know where to find that pizza that tony martignetti dot com and that is Tony. Stick to. Now let’s go back to, uh, Wounded Charity with Doug White, the author, teacher, the author, teacher consultant v. The author, teacher consultant to non-profits and philanthropist. Let’s bring in, um, charting. Navigator and charitywatch don’t have too many kind words. You have some, but not too much for these to charity rating organizations. No, I don’t. I think they should just stop doing what they’re doing. They’re doing more harm than good on that. It’s interesting you bring that up. I mean, they were a large part of the story, but there are a large part of the story in a couple of different ways. It’s because I wrote an article about Charity Navigator that came out in the Chronicle of Philanthropy that week in January 26. That was pure coincidence, right? It was pretty much a coincidence. I had put it in. But then the Wounded warrior project came in and I was able to add a sentence or two. I called Stacey and that the Chronicle. Stacy Palmer, editor dropping names, look atyou, dropping names. I call him Mr Palmer, but you know where Stacy? So we got a line in there. But it came out that week and it was Peter Hoener Camp who had been given that article by a friend of Hiss. And that’s why he called me. And that’s how I got in touch with wounded were how they got in touch with me Now going back to what charity navigator. Is it Zen evaluator way? OK, I don’t like them because they do a bad job. They they do not evaluate charities. They take numbers and they’re competent at dividing and adding and multiplying. But the relationship between those things, that is to say, what is spent on program or how much of CEO is paid or how much is spent on fund-raising or how many assets they have in the bank or whatever that is, is not direct indicator of how charity is doing in terms of its in terms of its work. And so they’ve been struggling with this for a very long time and trying to find this right mix the right algorithm. Well, there is no algorithm. That’s well, well, they have this former formulas and altum they wait certain things. They include certain things. They discount certain things, which is all very subjective. S o they It’s sort of it’s ah, it’s an objective product from a subjective process. You’re So you’re so right about that? I don’t know if you know this, Baxter. You know, I started I had forgotten that. But you, uh you have told me that in the past. Yeah, on dso Ken Berger. Very well. Who was Who was then the chair? I was CEO. Yeah, and I like him. I like him a lot. And I like Pat Dugan who funded charity navigator Pat Dugan had just sold out of his company, and I guess 2000 and that’s when I came out to be a consultant for him for a while, and he said, I want to know more about charities and he’s a good guy and he’s a kind of hardscrabble smart guy and wanted to do more in philanthropy in his life. And he said, If I can get the information, I can get this information out and help people understand how good charities are. And I said, The only thing we have that we can use is information from the 9 90 and there are lots of problems with that. The first problem is that it’s about a year and 1/2 to 2 years old, so you don’t really He wanted a morning star kind of a thing for charities, and it’s not gonna be the same in any way. The information on it is subjective because many people have. But there’s a lot of gray area in interpreting the 9 90 Yes, and finally I said you wouldn’t get married to someone if the only thing you knew about that person was her 10 40. It’s a relationship thes people have with the charity. It’s not just a matter of saying OK, you’re fund-raising efficiency is 20% whereas somebody else’s is better. And therefore, I’m gonna support that charity. I wanna go to a charity that I feel personally invested in in terms of the mission in terms of my own values. And so from that perspective, I said, We’re not gonna get very far in evaluating charity says That’s okay, I get it. I don’t really want anything more at this point. This is what we’re gonna do and besides the only information we have. So we did that. So all of that waiting and all of that has been revised many times. But it was very beginning. That’s what we did. But I always knew that it wasn’t the full story and it would never be the full story. It could never be the full story. Now that isn’t to say there can’t be a full story from other data or other information, but the charity world hasn’t yet gotten there, but that certainly doesn’t do it. But because there’s a vacuum, it fills that vacuum, and so people go to it. And Ken Burgers, predecessor Trump’s Trent Stamp, another super guy in a lot of ways, put charity navigator on the map. And so he became the go to for a lot of media in terms of questions about charities. And I just knew again I like Trent to a great deal. But they would be. He was being asked questions that had nothing to do with his work. A charity navigator like what kind of issues a charity would have with regard to its programs or something like that. And that’s not what Charity Navigator does. Yet it’s become this name of a new organization that knows everything about charities. And that’s not true. Let’s go, Thio. The reports come out, CBS News, New York Times, Charity Navigator and Charitywatch react. Well, What happened first was the charity navigator. Numbers were in the report and shared an advocator. Said that only 60% of the money was going toward programs. And wasn’t this a scandal and everything like that and s. So what happened was I talked to Ken Berger, and that’s in the book to I interviewed him and the reason that number was what it was. And I’m not thinking there’s anything generically wrong with 60%. Let’s get that straight right now. But put that aside for a moment, but it was higher than that because they were not charity. Navigator was not taking into account allocated costs that were being allocated to different Double Double Kid. You gotta read the book for that level of detail. Just get the damn book. But it’s not that complicated. I’ll say xero for readers. But the point being that charity Navigator disregarded both with G A P, the General Accounting Principles General, the accepted A Carroll accepted and the I. R s guidelines for doing this and charted every said. And Ken is very blond about this. We just didn’t take that into account. We just cut it off. So well, that’s not very fair, he said. Well, but the charity head of the opportunity to call us and correct it. So why is it up to them to call you to correct your mistake? Because they were up by almost 50%. It was like 85 instead of 60 was 85. Yes, yeah, yeah, and we don’t want to dwell on that number anyway, you know, there’s the whole overhead myth and, well, there is the biggest hypocrisy because, uh, charity navigator was the signature one of those I know. I had all three of them on the show when the letter when the overhead myth letter came out. Yes. I had Jacob, Harold and Ken Berger and Art Taylor on. Well, the other two were okay, but what did Ken Berger say to defend himself in that he’s the one who created the myth. So now he’s saying, OK, now we’re against that, right? I don’t get that. Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m getting a little bit. But I did have him on the show. That was, uh, October, October 2013. That letter came out. Um, that’s, um, other folks on the show to you. You opened with Dan piela and Brian mittendorf. Yes. Say both of them. They’ve both been on the go. Um, I don’t know what tooting my own horn, but this well, Danza show, do whatever the hell I want. Uh, they’re both good thinkers in this world. So damn very provocative. And he had a lot to say about one warrior project, Of course. Oh, you gotta read the book. You gotta be the book to find out. Exactly. I mean, everybody knows him from the Ted talk about the way we think about charities is what dead wrong. Okay, so we were Oh, it’s a charity navigator. In reaction to the reaction to the bad media charity Navigator puts them on what watch list or something or downgrades them. Right? The watch list thing. This is like This is so bizarre, Tony. I just can’t get my head around it still, and I’ve been swimming in this stuff for about 45 years now. So they put him on a watch list, and the watch list is nothing more than if unorganised ation is in the media in a negative way. They’re automatically put on the watch list because now we have some concerns about it. But now we have some concerns about it. So the funny thing is that a week or two later, right after that’s put on the watch list, CBS does another story saying Charity Navigator’s on the watch list. I Wonder Warrior Project. What? I’m sorry. Yeah, they put on the watch is by charitynavigator. Yeah, and the thing is bad. It was self perpetuating. But the other thing is that the story had nothing about being on the watch list. The story was just a rehash of other stuff they’d already right. So CBS wanted to grab this headline and then did nothing with it because there’s nothing to do with smaller organization Charity Raider Charitywatch. They did something similar. Yeah, they did in reaction to the media. Yeah, and they’re in the same ballpark I feel is charity Navigator when it comes to looking only at the numbers. Dan More shop. I don’t know if you’ve ever had him on. He’s out of Chicago. It’s a much smaller organization right on and again coming up with these ludicrous comments about the way charity should be run and no offence. Well, I guess I do mean to give offense. Let me be frank about my own intentions here. I don’t feel that Daniel Borisov is adding very much to the conversation about the charity world right now, and so I do criticize that, and if he’s going to sit there and criticize expenses, you should look in the mirror because his expenses with regard to his own salary a lot higher than anybody’s with regard to you. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, in relationship to the entire, but it’s like 1/2 $1,000,000. Your organization isn’t a tiny place. Okay, Um, all right. We still have another couple minutes before, uh, before before a break. Uhm All right, so they get this financial audit, it’s Simpson, Thatcher and f t. I. Very clean, with minor policy and procedure to minor things on you point out in a lot of detail the differences between the wounded warrior, project evaluation and the Clinton Foundation, but by the same firm Simpson Thatcher from, um, I guess we should start to, uh, hone in on the board a little bit. Now. You feel like it was left. Everything. Anything major out. I wanted to bring in the Richard Jones character. We left anything out. I mean, they were Well, yeah, jealousy. Okay, let’s take a look it for we analyze the boarding. Let’s look well, hard to analyze the board without Richard Jones being a part of it, and vice versa. But in terms of Jones role here he was the head of the audit committee, right? He’s the head of the Dam Art Committee that oversees the production of the 9 90 Yes, and he’s He’s flabbergasted by by these thieves. Media reports about overspending and lavish conferences. I’m sorry. Come back to take a break. Yeah. Let me get a break in. Because I know you’re on a roll for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention to those stories on and build support for your mission and your work. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. Doug and I were talking about the Chronicle of philanthropy, and the assistant editor of Chronicle of Philanthropy is former assistant editor Peter panepento is a principle of turn to communications there. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. We gotta get the live listener loving Doug White. You brought, uh, you said you were out soliciting listeners. We got a lot of lot of live love going out. Thio Duncan, South Carolina, New York, New York Glenside, Pennsylvania, Jacksonville, Florida, Charlotte, North Carolina. Close. Thank you. Close to Emerald Isle. Tip of Florida Tampa floor. Like I’m 14 my voice breaks Atlanta, Georgia in New Bern, North Carolina Even closer. My goodness. Live love to there. Um, before we go abroad, Wallingford, Connecticut, and field Connecticut, Oakland, California, Arlington, Virginia. Franconia, Virginia. I know. Franconia. I think I might know that is, uh, somebody might actually be listening to me instead of you, Doug. 11 person. Uh, maybe this too. Uh, live love out to all of you. Philadelphia P A as well. Huntington Park, California And thats everybody, you know, and, uh, Br What is this? California. Where That br What you’re writing there. Braila. Braila, California Live love to all our domestic live listeners. Thanks so much for being with us. Let’s go abroad. Thio El Salvador. Guatemala. Lord is Guatemala multiple Guatemala. Welcome. Welcome. Live love to you Guatemala. Um Brasilia, Brazil. So Juan Korea, Inchon, Korea and, uh, Machado’s Brazil as well. Wonderful. Multiple Brazil, multiple Guatemala. And, of course, our friends in South Korea. Always checking in live love to each of our live listeners. Thanks so much for being with us and the podcast pleasantries. That’s where you know. Not that we’re focused strictly on the numbers, but the vast majority does listen by the podcast live listeners. You’re welcome to join the podcast as well for times when you can’t catch us. Friday 1 to 2 eastern time join the over 30 13,000 people listening live listening on the podcast. So the pledges trees the pleasantries and the AMA said pageantry is but the passing key pattern trees and the pleasantries go out to the podcast. Listeners, thank you for being with us. Got butt loads more time for, Ah, Doug White and, uh, wounded charity. Okay, um, I got so effusive, but I forgot. Over what? What was I? Oh, that’s right. This guy, Richard Jones, is the chair of the audit committee, for Pete’s sake. Yes, go ahead, Tyr, the audit committee and you have to go back and look at that broadcast that CBS did that first night, but also all three. But in that first night, and it was like, Shaq, you’ve got this terrible 9 90 out, and I’m shocked, shocked to learn that there are in proprieties financial proprieties at the wounded warrior project. But the fact is, there weren’t any minute they weren’t that. In fact, they did a evaluation of all of the budgeting for the prior seven or eight years. An audit. They didn’t find anything out of place, Not a dime. That’s right. I gave a bad remark. That was a bad film reference because the French lieutenant’s exactly what’s going on. It is bad and yeah, that was That was a bad reference. That’s okay, because of what? It really wasn’t any gambling going on in this in this there was not. But but Richard Jones was a boardmember and was also a senior executive at CBS and also very involved with the veterans community is a highly regarded guy. I mean, you know, when it comes to anything personal or anything, nothing there. I wanna be clear that I have found nothing in these people’s lives. That or anything but stellar. But in terms of evaluating what happened here, we have to be clear. Yeah, it was It was a crisis and people reacted badly and the board, collectively failed, failed the organization. Right? And I would also be clear about that with regard to, as I mentioned before, Dave Phillips and also Chip Reid. Stellar reporters Chip Reid was the CBS Carson, this guy. So getting back to Richard Jones, the report comes back orally. Remember that it’s not been anything delivered in written format, and there’s a news conference that the wounded warrior project has on March. I believe it was 9 March nine and says this is what the results were. And on top of that, we’re getting rid of our two top guys that same night that came through. But during that month, when that that audit was taking place, Richard Jones was involved in the interviewing process. So here he is being involved in the interviewing process, along with Simpson Thatcher on matters that he was very much overseeing very much a part of overseeing at Wounded Warrior project, about how CBS had had written and reported its stories. So there’s, you know, I’m not stretching for this one. There was a conflict of interest there. He had a duty of loyalty to both his employer and because of his board relationship with Wounded Warrior Project duty of loyalty there. Yes, he did, as well as Karen Obedience. That’s correct. So the question that I have never been able to ask, even though I did accept the answer even though I did ask it, is why he was permitted to do that, why he wanted to do that. I suspect a couple of things. One is he could do whatever you want to do because he’s boardmember and you know that’s what they do. Sometimes he was also very influential. I think that and I wasn’t able to really put thes two dots together. But I think that his having been somewhat instrumental in getting the Super Bowl ad brought him into the full W W p. And nobody really thought anything about it at the time and even asked Steve, how did he come into the board? And I asked him, boardmember is how they how he came into the board and they really couldn’t remember any kind of moment. But one boardmember said that he was very upset that Jones did not disclose his relationships with the other two organizations. So here he is, and I’m thinking something is going on here. But that was on the relationships worrying his LinkedIn profile. Those relationships wearing Richard Jones is linked in profile. That is correct. The board would not have had to dive deep too far. You don’t need a private investigator to find those you’re making good pose board relationships. Yes, you are making good point for a moment there, after I had badgered him with thes e mails. I think his LinkedIn profile became not public. But then I went back. About a year later. It was there. So maybe it was my fault, I don’t know. But at any rate, he was in a curious place in this whole drama here. And so I began to wonder, Did this this ousting process begin? Well before this crisis and was the crisis basically invented? So I’m thinking that it waas on. It was fairly easy to get some disgruntled employees, but I don’t know why. Eric Millette, the face of the of the CBS reports, came out to be so negative against Wounded Warrior Project after he himself had been so effusively positive about Wounded Warrior Project had been rated best charity to work. That’s that’s all comes from employees ratings. Yes, I’m not making any of this stuff as I am, he’s saying, Oh, I have great thoughts about W. W. P. This is all external stuff, right? It was a couple of years in a row or something. It was it was number one or number two number one charity to work at for a couple of years in a row in there, like the top five for others. But there was this Facebook page of disgruntled employees who felt that there there was. There were firings for trivial reasons. And they felt if you didn’t fit in, you got fired, right? Is that the basis of basically what their complaints were? That is what their complaints were. But it’s funny because the firings were for cause and there is some fairly big deal firings. One guy was caught stealing from the from the till fundraiser, and two people following that were fired because they allowed it to happen. They knew it. And so it was the opposite of what you’d find in a scandal. They were doing everything you should just to stay clean. Al was really on top of that. He would. And the other thing I want to be clear about here is that these people loved Alan. Steve, Steve, Steve was in a very public place and and Alice always been in the operation side of it. But in my interviews, I don’t think I had one person that I interviewed who wouldn’t didn’t go out of his way to say, you know, if it weren’t for Al here, he is the CEO of this multi $1,000,000 organization. Hundreds of millions of dollars of or he’s the second guy CEO Seo. And he’s he’s taking time to get me through this crisis or that crisis or worked with the V A. They used to make calls. They would make the calls to some of the recipients of the services. Yes, because at its core, W, W, P, and all of the V esos and others exist because VH has some cracks in it. That’s yeah, that’s that’s flushed out of the booth. Got a by the book to get you to get that detail. There would be cracks no matter what. But there’s severe crisis. So Alice going through in trying to help them navigate this Byzantine system and they love for Al. It was overwhelming, all right, we need to switch to the board. Doesn’t wanna spend time positivity and bored, and what the board should have done it so clearly the board should not have silenced do not have been silent itself on. Dhe should not have silenced. It’s to it’s to talk to duck guys. Steve went to Tony, Tony oh, tea or no and said we have to have a strategy here. And he had already created some outlines for a strategy with Live Strong. And I think Coleman and another group who had gone through crises and what the fund-raising resulted in from that and they were not interested in pursuing that. Now they have the crisis coming up there. They’re winging it and doing a bad job of it, right? He had encouraged crisis management training long before this all happened. Yes, and they didn’t invite eso. No crisis management training could be very valuable for you, For you, for you and your board. That’s right. And I will speculate, and I have to label. This is speculation or opinion or whatever. I believe that the crisis was somewhat manufactured, right? Well, that’s the long marinating his job. So the board Okay, so you want to get to the board and I taught board governance for 20 years at N Y. U and Columbia. I still do this Southern University, so I think, and I think board governance is where it’s at when it comes to really understanding. Non-profits and non-profits don’t really advertiser. Their boards are. It’s always the CEO. It’s out there in the face of the public. And so we really don’t know what boards do or who they are, which is, I guess, OK, But they are your listeners to know they’re the guys who are really running the show from a strategic and long range perspective. And so they really are the decision makers when important issues come up on. And in this particular case, they, I think, made a lot of bad decisions. And, uh, toward the end, I think they let Steve and Al do what they needed to do. But Allen Steve always made sure that the board was on board and that the board’s suggestions and opinions were always taken into account. And there are examples in the book where that is proven to be true. So, boardmember, who says Stephen Al just flew off? We had no idea what was going on is demonstrably false. Yeah, that all these right? All the lavish conferences the board had approved the conference expenses. You point that out? Yes, and they were sighted at $3 million they were under $1 million in one example Almost almost 30. Yeah, Exactly. Okay. What else? What else can. Non-profit takeaway. Well, board wise, it’s not. Everybody’s going to be in the cross hairs like Wounded Warrior Project. So it’s It’s a specific organisation there, but any organization can be caught and to be in trouble. So what should be? What should aboard do? The board should have a tremendous relationship with its senior staff. If there’s a bad relationship with the senior staff that has to be taken care of before anything else is done, that might mean getting rid of a few board members that might be get mean, getting rid of the senior staff. Make sure that’s there. The thing is, the thing about this is that was the case. There was a good relationship between Steven now and the board. But the problem is, and I think this is where Richard Jones played an oversized role in the whole process. They were allowed Thio fire these guys a Ziff. They deserved it and they didn’t deserve it. And so the board, the board has to be on top of this from a public relations perspective as well as an operational one, in my view, and the public relations perspective is not unimportant, it’s not just the dressing on the whole thing. It’s what’s really ruined. Or, I should say hurt. Not ruined. Hurt. Wounded Warrior project. Since that day, they have lost over 1/2 a $1,000,000,000 in revenue. The half 600 I think $50 million in revenue from that day in the last three years take caution. Get the book because there’s there’s a lot more detail that we were not able to cover. It is wounded Charity lessons learned from the Wounded Warrior Project Crisis, published early October, But you can advance by it on on Amazon. I know for a fact again, he’s Doug White, author, teacher and advisor to non-profit organizations and philanthropists. Thank you so much, Doug. It’s been a pleasure to see you again minded get mine as well. Next week, I’m working on it. I have I ever let you down? There was that one time with the fermentation show, but that was so long ago. I was I was only 52 then. Youthful indiscretion on that show. Um, if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner CPS guiding you beyond the numbers record. Cps dot com by koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is By Scott Steiner, Brooklyn. They’re with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking Alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Beyond potential Live Life, Your Way on talk radio dot N Y C. 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Nonprofit Radio for September 13, 2019: Peer-To-Per Peek & Poverty Porn

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Noah Barnett & Kenny Kane: Peer-To-Per Peek
Our panel from the 2018 Nonprofit Technology Conference shares an overview of community-driven fundraising. How do you plan for, inspire and activate your supporters? They’re Noah Barnett from CauseVox and Kenny Kane with Testicular Cancer Foundation. (Originally aired 7/6/18)

 

Amy Sample Ward: Poverty Porn
Amy Sample Ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping, while telling compelling stories and advocating effectively? She’s our social media & technology contributor and CEO of NTEN. (Also from the 7/6/18 show)

 

 

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Transcript for 457_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190913.mp3 Processed on: 2019-09-14T15:44:50.067Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…09…457_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190913.mp3.362581000.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/09/457_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190913.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with in duration if you harden to me with the idea that you missed today’s show. Peer-to-peer Peak. Our panel from the non-profit Technology Conference shares an overview of community driven fund-raising. How do you plan for inspire and activate your supporters? They’re Noah Barnett from causevox and Kenny Kane with Testicular Cancer Foundation. This is from 18 and T C, originally broadcast on July 6th 2018 and Poverty, Porn. Any sample Ward returns to discuss the issues around graphic images and descriptions of poverty. How can you avoid the porn trap and white savior stereotyping while still telling compelling stories and advocating effectively? She’s our social media and technology contributor and CEO of and 10. That’s also from the July 6 2018 show on Tony’s Take Too Bad data at Consumer Reports Responsive by Wagner CPS Guiding you beyond the numbers wagner cps dot com By Cougar Mountain Software Denali fundez. They’re complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content For non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Here’s peer-to-peer Peak. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 2018 non-profit Technology Conference hashtag is 18 NTC. Where the Convention Center in New Orleans, Louisiana. This interview, like all our ntcdinosaur views, is sponsored by Network for Good. Easy to use donor-centric software for non-profits. My guests now are Noah Barnett and Candy Cane. Noah is head of marketing for causevox and candy cane is yo the Testicular Cancer Foundation. Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for having us. This is great. I’m just telling, you know it’s great. Not that in 10 things. Not great. It’s exceptional. It’s exceptional. Thank you. In 10. Thank you. All right. Um, your workshop topic is community driven fund-raising. How do you peer-to-peer to cultivate dahna relationships and reach new donors? That sound familiar? Yeah, absolutely. We just wrapped up our session. We’re already done. Yeah, we’re all done. Yeah, we’re on the downswing. So this is the after party victory. Last. Both Put it. Well, um, community driven fund-raising. Let’s start with you. Let’s start close to know what’s what’s not being done. Quite right. That non-profits could you better. Yeah. So I think what’s interesting is we’ve gone through a few shifts in fund-raising. We went through this idea of there was, like, localized fund-raising back in the day, and then we went to Mass fund-raising, where we basically didn’t differentiate any of our appeals. We sent all that out, and now, today, like, I think there’s a fundamental shift where we’ve moved into what we call the connected economy, where the lines between digital and offline are starting to blur. And that requires a shift in how we approach fund-raising. And we see kind of a playbook for the connected economy is community driven fund-raising. Okay, the I like the way you you sort of set this up for us. The lines between online and the physical world and our real life are blurring. Indeed. Yeah. Okay, so we’re bringing these things together? Yes. Okay. Peer-to-peer community driven. Okay, Yeah. We’re calling it the connector economy because we’re just connected to anybody anywhere, at any time, through technology and our lives are more connected than ever. So why shouldn’t our causes b similarly, shouldn’t we be similarly connected to our cause is exactly is through our community. Exactly. Okay. Getting anything you want to add to the start up? Yeah, I would just say that. You know what? The Testicular Cancer Foundation were really big on storytelling and creating compelling stories that resonate with our audience. Not only, you know, as someone who’s been through it as a caregiver myself, but, you know, we try to put ourselves on the other end of the computer screen, or the phone would have you where these stories will compel people to act, compel people to donate, compel people that take action. Okay, let’s stay with you. Your your description says in fact, in boldface your description says that you will share with us exactly how to do this. How did so where Where should we start? We’ve been, you know, everybody sees peer-to-peer. Well, let me take a step back and I okay to synonymous eyes peer-to-peer and community fund-raising or you guys drawing a distinction between those two. Yeah, we’re definitely drawing in this station. Please educate me. Yeah. So I think what’s interesting is community driven fund-raising is what we’re calling the umbrella that lays over all the various aspects of fund-raising, where your community of supporters are actually the key driver of success in the campaigns here, it appears your war is a tactic inside of that. Larger. Exactly. And so in community driven fund-raising, there’s kind of a scale of the different types of things that qualify as that that moves from organization. Led meeting, like the organization is starting a campaign like a giving Tuesday campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, an annual campaign all the way down to supporter initiated, which could be I’m wanna raise money for cancer. And I’m choosing to do that for the Testicular Cancer Foundation. But I decided as a supporter to do that he didn’t created environment metoo do that. Organic indeed. Thank you. All right, so I’ll refrain from making those two synonymous because I’m being too narrow. I’m just choosing one method, one tactic. Okay. Um, all right. Exactly how, uh, Kenny, where Where did wish we get started? Yeah. So appealing. But I don’t know where to get going. Sure. So in this rolling in my last roll, which was a broader young adult cancer non-profit called stupid cancer, the same rules apply so you have people who are affected by cancer. Cancer was huge. Yes, you have enormous millions of kids and engaged around. Um, I know you’re probably right. Way did pretty well. Yeah, it still exists There. Still there. Still hammered away at it. He’s going to take a look. He’s one of the co founders of super cancer. Yeah, OK, so So the long story short is that my father was diagnosed at age 50 with testicular cancer, which put me on a path towards can fraud advocacy. Ah, in my early twenties and about two years ago, my friend Matt first learn who’s the founder of testicular cancer foundations and 80 wanna move from New York. Uh, lost. And I said, Sure. Ah, and I’ve taken over Testicular Cancer Foundation. Okay, But getting back to you, you know that the same rules apply where we serve people who are in a at a disadvantage spot going through cancer. You know, whether it’s a survivor, the patient, the caregiver who is helping the person caregivers often forgot. Yes, caregivers need to take care of them. So I was need to be coddled and cared for 100%. That was So what we do is we see these people go along a path of being recipients of the mission, being beneficiaries of the mission. And then they come back, you know, 23 years out. And, you know, they decide they want either run a marathon or they wanna create a cancerversary party. Cancerversary is a really big milestone where on the, you know, annual date of their diagnosis or when they finish treatment, which everyone they choose, people will give back, and typically they get back to the non-profit that help them. You know, I think it’s probably similar in all chronic health. I know what I know. An oncologist office where they have a bell, you ring the bell. Uh, your final treatment. I’ve seen a bell lifting a gun. Yeah, it’s a great milestone. Okay? And I had my own. I’m sympathetic to caregivers. I had some sense of it before this, but during the summer, this past, last year, summer and in the fall, September October, my mom was declining, and I was my mom. My dad and I were caregivers. I just watched her, and then she actually died early October of 2017. So I it became even more. I became even more aware of how you need to take care of yourself. I know it’s just one component of what testicular cancer is doing. Sure, the caregivers often think that they have to be selfless and and they can’t. You cannot give up your own life. T give another to get to another, you’ll burn out. There’s a lot of self care that goes into your caregiver. So when we talk about the community aspect of community and fund-raising, you know, and I’m so let the host Tigress. I’m sorry. Sorry about that. Sorry about Mom. Thank you. Um, about the host back to discuss. Welcome to the show cubine xero all week. So community German fund-raising kayman. Yeah. So the same rules apply. So people go through this process, they come back. And for every person who was perhaps turned away from the person going through this acute episode of, you know, not episode but a stretch of cancer treatment What Not whether somebody wanted to give them food or take them to the doctor’s appointment? The person kind of turned away. Community driven fund-raising is a great way to really activate your community of people who wanted to help you. And in the past we have created opportunities for fund raisers to convert into things like travel scholarships to a patient conference. So if you’re this arrive, er, you could fundraise within your community to raise money for a travel reimbursement. So it’s not necessarily scholarship is a little bit more democratic of a process. Scholarship can get a little tricky. So this skull, this reimbursement program that we did it stupid cancer actually allowed the the people around the person affected to help fund their way to the conference while doing ah e-giving back to charity, getting the tax benefits all that. But it was just a really nice way of recognizing what that person had been through. It’s time for a break. Wepner C P. A. Is they have a new wagon are on September 25th exempt or non exempt? Everybody in your organ has to be paid either hourly nonexempt unless they are exempt. Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, you need to classify employees correctly, and you need to document the decisions that you made around the classifications. The cover it all got a weather. CPS dot com. Quick Resource is and upcoming events now back to peer-to-peer Peak. And then so what’s the broader lesson for our listeners in small and midsize shops? Yeah, I think what’s interesting is community driven. Fund-raising is just a reframing of how we approach raising money and building awareness for the causes that were advocating for Okay, bye, basically recognizing the true value that every person in your non-profits community and as a community of supporters, whether they’re known or unknown supporters of your organization, Typically, we look at it from just a financial perspective. And so what community room, fund-raising says, is that it’s not just about the money that support Ercan give you. It’s about their influence in the time they can give you a swell and in the connected economy of the influence that a supporter has is actually more valuable than it’s ever been before. Because brands are being kind of blocked out of feeds. Whether it’s Facebook, it’s becoming really difficult for non-profits to reach any new people. And so, by turning inward and saying, How can we actually empower our supporters by inspiring, activating and rallying them? Latto actually be the fundraisers for organization. Okay, How do we get How do we activate this within our own organization? How do what we need to be thinking through? Sure, we’ll be in the team discussing. I feel like we’ve spent enough time on motivation. What are some steps? How do we get started? I’m interested. But I don’t know how to organize myself. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think community German fund-raising is just like lens on how you approach fund-raising. And so I think it’s important to have non-profit leadership buy-in but also a fund-raising team in general and communications because community fund-raising is basically saying we’re gonna inspire people in our community, becomes supporters rather than guilt them. Then we’re gonna activate those people that have true potential to become fundraisers and advocates for our cause instead of and we’re not trying to convince people to do that, we’re just activating the potential that’s already and they’re already exists exactly. And they were rallying them together. So fundraisers usually see raising money and reaching new donors as their responsibility community German fund-raising says No. It’s actually your job to be a player coach and basically see your community is a valuable asset to help you fund raise, help you grow your impact, help you reach new donors. But I’m gonna ask you again. But how do we get started? I mean, maybe isn’t identifying certain people to maybe seed the program? I understand you’re not throughout the life of the pregnancy thing. Okay? You do something, you do something. But we need some seeds. Yeah, I think what we do is all. We always advise people to understand the different stages of community German fund-raising. And so the first stage is inspiring. And so, as you look at your current fund-raising, whether it’s an event, whether it’s a male piece, how do you look at that piece and see it from a lens that you’re not trying to convince someone or guilt someone to give to your cause? We’re actually trying to inspire them and because inspiration leads to sharing and action. Okay, so, yes, we wanted to share. Exactly. And then inside your current supporters, which is the second stage, which is activation identifying key supporters that are ready to do something more. And so one of our customers world bicycle relief every time someone donates at that moment of inspiration that they’ve someone’s been inspired to support the cause. They want to provide a next step, activate them to actually be an advocate or a fundraiser for the cause. And so it’s something as simple as that by they implement this new program, and they’re just asking new donors if they want to do more okay and presenting the opportunity. And if you apply the commune German fund-raising methodology, you couldn’t find things across your current fund-raising program where you just shift your mindset to be. How can we make this more community focus rather than organization driven? It’s sort of empowering them to India. I’m just adding another. I mean, you’re talking about inspiring them that they share, and then they take action. I guess I’m calling it, empowering them and giving them well in power and giving them permission and maybe some tools to work with the backdrop is shaking video stable. It’s not gonna fall, but I would add that historically we’ve created a fund raiser. Maybe you donate $20 to yourself so that you don’t share this fund raiser with the xero balance. The same rules apply to when you’re launching a campaign. You really need the buying of trusted, uh, folks in your, you know, in your group people that you know will ah, create a buzz. And you certainly don’t want to launch it on deaf ears, right? With zero balance et cetera. You mentioned storytelling earlier. You seem to make a point of how important that is. How does that help us? I guess at the first stage that Noah was describing inspiring the community. I think I think it contextualized is and provides insight into your motivation as a fund raiser. How do we start telling these stories? I want to get into the nitty gritty here. So obviously, we’re up against the algorithm of any given social media platform, and you can do it whether it’s the ah, email or through social post, but really providing, you know, maybe a before and after photo, in my case where people are, you know, going through treatment, and they come out with a smile on their face. That’s the best case scenario and just really humanizing it. You know, we talked a lot in our session today about being human throughout the fund-raising process. I think it’s really easy to get kind of technical and robotic about it and just create opportunities for people to self serving, you know, cradle, uh, fund-raising page and then never to be heard from again. Yeah, uh, I think causevox and you know, I know using causevox We aim thio certainly create opportunities for more than that. So you actually have a relationship with the non-profit as you’re going through the fund-raising fund-raising stages and and finishing the campaign about empowering people to tell their own stories so that it’s not coming from the organization, But, um, giving them the option to create a two minute self d’oh or log on their own way actually saw this firsthand. So and 10 is a non-profit who hosts this conference, and what they did was they said, How can we raise money for scholarships so that people could come to this conference for free? Who can afford it? And one of the biggest things they did was they said, you know, we have 10 board members that have influence and ability to do this, And so let’s empower them to tell the community why ntcdinosaur turns to them and fund-raising on our behalf. And so they were able to raise over $18,000 I just saw the banner over there. And there’s, you know, 50 60 70 different donors that came together to help support that campaign. And all they did was they said, Hey, boardmember is Ur supporters were gonna activate you to tell your story on our behalf. They did videos they wrote like testimony is different content. And so they didn’t say one thing that the other again, they just activated those supporters and said, Hey, can you share your story with the community and raise money on? And they were able to do that. And there’s people at this conference because of what those board members did in the stories that they told. Yeah, excellent. Excellent. Um, so eso were starting capital. So we’re activating people that they share. And then that they take the act, take the action of of actually beginning of fund-raising fund-raising on their own as we’re okay. It’s rise where, uh, going through this process of empowering described, we describe it. Do we need to circumscribe it a little bit about her boundaries around it? For listeners, that might be a little leery of maybe the power they were transferring too much power. Yeah. No, it talked a lot about this during the session about giving, You know, the non-profit needs to give up a certain degree of control. Do you wanna talk about that? Yeah. And I think that’s why the third phase of community fund-raising is about rallying, not controlling. And so I think our default is Well, how do we control this? How do we do this? How do we do that? I think in the connected economy, all the powers with the customer. And it’s on the non-profit to realize that their supporters have more power than they think, and so they can try to control that. Or they can really say, Hey, let’s rally this. Let’s support this and help drive this forward. And so I think if you jump to taking a control position instead of how do we actually rally people in the right direction? Um, you’re gonna miss huge opportunities, Really Activate your community. And, you know, this reminds me of the fears that non-profits had around Facebook allowing people to come. It’s been going on for years on their Facebook page. I don’t know if we’re gonna allow that we should have opened comments posted. Yeah, well, circling back earlier, we were talking about you know, the storytelling aspect and in the cancer world and again in the probably the chronic illness world of non-profits. It’s a beautiful thing when you have somebody sharing their story whether we are sharing on the behalf, which is most of the time. When you see in the comments, let’s say they have a rare type of brain tumor or something like that. They’ve never met or connected with another young adult with cancer. Little on somebody who has their exact same diagnosis. Tow Watch that unfold in the comment section where now these people are gonna be able to support one another. The fact that you facilitated that on the non-profit side eyes amazing. And it’s only going to contribute to this overall strategy of activation and engagement and getting people thio really buy into your non-profit and buy into your mission. Yeah, and you shared a great example that stupid cancer had a different name before it was stupid cancer. And it was, you know, this moment when they said everyone calls us stupid cancer because that’s the tag line so let’s actually switch. So he convinced the founder of the organization to switch the name too stupid cancer. Make the name of the organ and kind of say, you know, hey, like, we’re going to give power to this community that wants to be a part of this. And that’s when they saw growth from 252,000. Like you saw hundreds of thousands dollars being raised because they just again said, Hey, we’re not going to control this. We’re not gonna you know, they would correct people like we’re not the stupid cancer guys. Where the geever the other name? Yeah, it wasn’t I’m too young for this cancer foundation. Yeah, very Slavic, very wordy. But they gave up that control and then they saw, like, the momentum in the community like flourish. And I think what was interesting is that still progressed. What their mission Ford Waas. Maybe in ways they never expected or never would have done themselves. But it’s still pushed the mission forward. And I think that’s the opportunity that non-profits small, large medium all have today. And we see it time and time again with our customers at causevox and in parallel. You don’t get to decide what’s cool. Your audiences. Same sort of thing with fund-raising storytelling. All the concept for presenting today. It’s all about the audience. Indeed. Um, what about let’s talk a little more about building this into your annual fund-raising plan? OK, OK, what? You’re the experts. I have a plan now, and I don’t feel like I’m sufficiently community driven or or or at all community community supported what I need to rethink, not just what we’ve already covered, but how did I get this in my plan? Yeah, I think what’s interesting is fundraisers have like the same playbook, and they just think, if they do more of it that there’ll be more successful results. Um, and I think that’s why the burn out rate for fundraisers is so significant in our industry is because they feel as though there’s one playbook to run, which is more events. More e mails, more male, more time alone decides that they have exhausted that playbook. A organization w move onto organization. Yeah, try again. Yeah, and I think what’s also thing is it creates this window shopping experience where you’re always looking at other non-profits and being like man, if I only had what they have I would be able to solve. And what we challenged our people that attend our session is that you really need to look at the challenges and reframe them. And so we said is instead of saying OK, I need to do more of these things. It’s saying as part of my annual fundraising campaign, whether other things like we can do and what we provide It was saying, How about we take a look at our community and see if there’s opportunities that we can inspire our community, activate them and rally them to actually help raise more money and reach new donors? That’s part of our annual can I? I would, I would add that you know, people listen this interview who were saying All right, how do I deploy this? He certainly don’t want to cannibalize anything that’s working for you. So if you raise a ton of money in queue for you know, don’t don’t suddenly pivot and say, All right, I’m gonna try to spread that out for the rest of the year and then suddenly you’re exhausted by Q for. But there’s a lot of little things you can do throughout the year, like being more human, connecting with your audience. Giving up the control is we’ve, you know, keep reiterating Ah, and just being more of a social entity, you know, that’s kind of what it comes down to is is it’s not a one way communication channel. It’s, you know, the feedback goes both ways. Yeah, and I think it’s just even seeing the potential and being able to create the opportunities where you’re actually saying, We’re asking for more things than money. So a quick story. I spent six years running growth at an international relief. Non-profit and I was overseeing growth. But that was communications in development, and so are major gift officers, obviously were hard core, like go after money, cultivate new gifts year over year. And when I told them when I oversaw them was like there’s other opportunities for these major donors to make a difference. Their influence in their time are really valuable. You know, Major donors know a lot of other major donors, and so we continually go back and say The only thing we want from you is your money. We’re only going to get a portion of their value. And so we went to them and said, Hey, you know, would you want to do something interesting by, like leveraging your major gift to run a matching gift campaign? Or do you want to do a employee engagement campaign at your non-profit? Or do you want to basically go into the business network that you’re a part of and share this opportunity? Two. Promote and inspire other people to support the cause? And what we saw is that Mme. Or that we got them to invest their influence in their time. The more money they well, how do you make those asks? You just ticked off like three things. How do you make those? So I think, in the major gift side, obviously, you know, it involves, like face-to-face conversations and having a conversation and providing examples of what other individuals but people Do you wantto do this campaign or activate matching gift? So many make those asks. You want to do your own workplace campaign? Yeah, so I think obviously, in major gifts, it’s different because you have a personalized contextual relationship with that individual, and so if you know that they’re a CEO of a company. You can have a dialogue about that and say, You know, how are you engaging your employees to give back? As a community, you obviously care and see your legacy as giving gifts into our organization. How is your company doing? And so it’s having a conversation around that I think, in the broader sense where you’re asking a broader audience to do. Fund-raising is again making sure that you’re not asking everybody and just being like, Hey, this is a new way that you can give to our information our gift to our organization rather looking for segments of your audience that are ready to do something whether that means they’re new donors, they’re volunteers, their board members. They’ve been giving monthly for 10 years, looking for signals that they have the potential to do something. And that’s why we say that second phase is about activation because that means they already have the ability to do it. You’re just activating that, and so it can’t just be this broad sweeping thing where it’s like, Hey, now you can raise money on X, Y and Z on behalf of our cause. That’s not gonna work. You just ticked off a bunch of very good. Identify IRS indeed. Uh, who who? This might be appropriate for Kenny. I want to go back to something that you said earlier. The feedback has to be both ways, not organization Thio. Everybody correct. This that involves real listening on the organizations. And it’s hard. Sometimes you don’t hear things you might not. You’re not always gonna hear things you want to hear, right? Talk about how, how an organization consort of shift culture in terms of real listening, engagement that way, I think I think you guys were just talking about some really important, which is the signals, you know, in a non-profit situation, you have a lot of people who will come to the table. And, you know, people have ideas. People have always. You do this, you should do that. And, you know, one of the things that we always say is if you don’t pay attention to mission A, you know, mission B, C and D, whatever, we’ll all fail. Um, so listening is important, you know, for us, the example of changing the name of the organization was kind of a really big undertaking when you look back at it, Um, I think that you just have to have a qualifying process, you know, kind of Ah, multiphase approach to letting feed back into the top and looking at the person who is suggesting it, Uh, kind of like I said, creating a rubric to take me back in. And you know, you have a board of directors for a reason. So if the board is providing you with information, obviously it’s probably a good thing that listen to, but also, people who were out of the core of the Apple can sometimes override the most meaningful feedback and again, trying to figure you gotta be, you gotta be ready to hear that you know, not only not only listening to your board and also where they’re coming from, what is their motivation for providing this feedback? And if I can have two things that what we did at my non-profit, it’s first and foremost, we had to convince the organization that the donors in our supporters actually mattered. So much of our head was like we’re doing great work, were, and we just need people to give us money, and so what we did was every week we had on our designated. So we got leadership buy-in where everybody in the organization wrote thank you notes to donors. And so that started to say, Hey, we’re gonna send her on this. And then we started doing what, like, surveying or net promoter score type things where we asked, Hey, you know, uh, would you recommends our organization to a friend, family or colleague? If so, why? Why do you support our organization? And we actually started using their responses in our fund-raising copy because they were telling us why they support our organization in a way that was specific, that we could actually share with others. And they also told us ideas on how we could improve. And so I think the person foremost is you have to cultivate that idea that you’re actually gonna listen because you value that person’s opinion. And second is you just have to ask. I think we asked for money all the time, but we don’t ask for what people think or why they support our organization or how could we improve this organization? How could we reach new people? We asked that question to a small segment of donors. They gave us tons of ideas that we were able to filter throughout our organization. We’re gonna leave it there, gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for having us. You’re not on the You’re watching the video. They’re both redheads on. And they are Noah Barnett. He’s head of marketing for causevox and Candy Cane, CEO of the Testicular Cancer Foundation and co founder of Stupid Cancer. That’s right that way. Three a curveball. And you just handled it. It’s amazing. Oh, yeah. Thank you. You get to use overviewing. Ingratiate yourself. All right, we’re out here where he’s trying to get in by the back. I’ve been listening to 20 martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 18 90 sea This interview sponsored by Network for Good. Easy to use dahna management and fund-raising software for non-profits. Thank you so much for being with us. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software koegler cook amount in software is simple to use and the support is phenomenal. With a program like QuickBooks, you don’t have support. If you don’t get support, it’s worth nothing. That’s from Christine Christenson, owner of Broomfield Sheet metal. Okay. Granted, not a non-profit. But so what? You can’t learn from a small business. I’m sure that you can. Small business owners have, ah many of the same challenges as small and midsize non-profits, and she’s got experience with Cougar Mountain. Kruckel Mountain has a free 60 day trial for you. You get it at the listener landing page. Tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now time for Tony’s Take two bad data. Bad data at Consumer Reports. My dad and I have very similar names, although he uses an initial middle initial, I do not. And, um, that should be a clue. That’s the sufficient clue for somebody who works in data s O that it should be queuing. Consumer reports that we are not the same person. Nonetheless, when I moved, they thought it was my dad who moved. So they address his correspondents to me down in North Carolina. Not only the middle initial but last known address should have been a clue. Also because I did not live most recently with my dad. I lived in New York City. So last address. That was another clue. Um, so they did not pick it up. I’ve told them several times by reply cards and by e mails, they haven’t gotten it. Maybe this will do it. And there’s also a lesson for you. You need to pay attention to your data. The video is consumer reports. Your data is bad and that is at tony martignetti dot com. Now time for poverty. Porn with Amy Sample Ward. Now let’s bring in any sample Ward. She is our social media contributor and CEO of and 10 the non-profit Technology Network. Our most recent co authored book is social change. Anytime, everywhere about online multi-channel engagement. She’s at Amy Sample ward dot or ge And at a M E R s Ward. Welcome back, Amy. Simple word. Hi. Thank you for having me back. It’s my pleasure to have you back. This is, uh, uh, this is the Have you been back on the show since n. 10? Since ntcdinosaur Theo ntcdinosaur think this might be the first time I think it is. I’m pretty sure because I was leaving you alone because I figured, you know, there’s clean up to do and thank you’s to sand and lots of stuff. So, um and then you had a staff planning Then you have your staff planning time? Uh, yeah. So to two times a year, all of the staff? Because not everyone is here in the Portland office. Have some remote dafs. Everybody comes to Portland for a week together of planning and craft and happy hour and things like that. Wonderful. Yes, I think they call it staff planning. But planning is not all that we D’oh. Excellent. Nor should it be because you’re all together only twice a year. So you have many vulture virtual employees. So congratulations on a wonderful and fun. And I hope from your perspective, successful certainly was from mine. Uh, and T c non-profit technology conference. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I think it was a really good year. You think so too? Good. Yeah, I’m glad. I know it was fun. I know that’s without question, but we’re doing it for a little more for the just the fun purpose fundez one is up there fundez up there, but education and technology, You know they rank too, but congratulations. Thank you for being part of it again. Thank you. Uh, was my pleasure. We got a lot. We got 30 interviews for non-profit Yes. Great. No, thank you. Um Okay, so we’re talking today about poverty. Porn? You said this had come up for you in Ah, some discussions or members have been raising it. You’ve been hearing, Ah, little more chatter about this. Yeah, I think that organizations are organizations have been criticized for participating in poverty, porn for years. But I think those have often been organizations that are really, really big operating on an international scale, global scale that are maybe more vulnerable to criticism because so so many people are seeing what they’re doing. And they’re raising so much money. And, you know, with all of that kind of spotlight and revenue, I think naturally organizations, regardless of what they dio, are open to criticism of lots of different forms. Right. But now I think organizations are starting to see Yes, we’ve, you know, maybe criticized those organizations for years, but also maybe we’re a part of that. And what does that mean for us? You know, you don’t just have to be really, really large organization or making lots and lots of revenue off of a single appeal toe, have some issues with the way you’re you’re doing your work. So I think these organizations are starting to see that there. Maybe starting to ask more questions because they’re getting you know, the the digital teams who are managing that content are starting to feel like if something does happen, you know, they’re the ones that posted that photo or sent that tweet or whatever and really wanting to figure out how how to navigate. What? What’s the best way to tell this story? Onda void. Ah, potential backlash. Yeah. Um, how would you define this? Do you? Ah, I have a way. But I’m gonna hear, you know, how would you define poverty? Porn? I guess I don’t have probably an eloquent think definition. But if I was explaining poverty, porn to an organization that I think you know without knowing, whoever we’re talking to you, what their mission is poverty point is when you’re who may be taking advantage of the difference between the audience, you’re calling tau action. Most often it’s for donations and these people that you are serving in whatever way instead of maintaining the humanity of everyone involved in that situation and honoring all that all of those people have and really um, owning the story about what you do in the power of in a example, their donation versus trying to exacerbate the difference and the things that are quote unquote not had. But this group that you’re serving and focusing on that discrepancy, I think to me is, is really what it’s about. You’re not maintaining everyone’s humanity and then highlighting the service you provide your instead maybe kind of further opening a divide. And most of the, um, backlashes that have seen or, you know, examples of this on the Web are our images, but could be written and you could see right majority video. But a written description could also be, um oh, totally exploitative or, you know, yeah, the language that we use to describe communities right? Could also highlight that that gap that you’re describing Yeah, um, you know, it’s ah, it’s It’s very sensitive, you know, because we are trying to do very good work and we are motivated. And our mission statements are oh, are around help of this vulnerable population. What? Whatever it might be whatever country it might be. I mean, it’s not a lot of the lot of the images are from abroad. I mean, I see a lot of, like, South America, Central America, Africa. But it could, you know, it could be right here in the U S. To I mean, you could certainly, ah, go astray with images and written descriptions of conditions right here, right here in the U. S. Certainly certainly. Um, but, you know, so where were motivated by the right, um, in the right directions. But But we, uh you know, it may just be is easy is like, you know, consciousness raising, which is what our conversation hopefully is doing, and and certainly a lot of the conversation. You know, like, I saw things back to life 2013 or so talking about this subject s so I think a lot of it, because our motivations are, you know, I always impute good motivations to non-profits. And most people, uh, there are good, you know, it’s just raising consciousness. I mean, I think that is there are lots of tactical things that we could talk. Yeah, you’re right. It’s not just your right. Your underlying the thing that’s really gonna create change is that organizations and the individuals in those organizations actually do some really hard work. Two to figure out an address and accept and try and move forward from all the biases that they’re bringing to their work. The again, even if their motivation, their intent internally, is field pure and good to them, it could still be coming from a really kind of dangerous place that they are the savior of that community. Right? And that, in itself, isn’t is a bias. That’s gonna mean you. You cannot create content whether that, you know, photos are writing these descriptions that not coming from that place, right? So I think just doing that internal work to say, Gosh, how are we, you know, without explicitly, like deciding to do this? How are we already coming at this from not the best place, you know? And as an organization, what are the practices or policies that we have that can help us change that? I mean, you know, if we want to start at the big picture level, don’t think about tactics. Things like do every single one of your staff regularly have opportunities to interact with the community members you serve. If they don’t, they’re not in a position to speak from a place where they understand the shared humanity. They under stand that everyone both inside the organization and those being served all have strengths and weaknesses and hopes and dreams and challenges and are at a place to really, I think, talk about the work in a more productive way. So even just at that level are you creating opportunities for every single one of your staff to be a part of the community. I think I’m always surprised how many organizations where they say, Oh, no. If you work in the office, you don’t ever talk to the community. Only our programs. After that, why would you do that? You know, why would you create this wall? The silo between the staff talking about the work, the staff, deciding how the work is gonna be done and the people participating in that work that doesn’t make anything? No. And those opportunities need to be more than photo opportunities to know that there’s lots of examples, you know, it has to be meaningful. You know, there’s one of the iconic ones, I guess infamous one’s better. Better than infamous ones is, you know, eyes, Ellen Too generous in Nairobi with lots of kids around her. And, um, there’s one of cheering wearing the red nose with Liberian children around him. So what? I mean, I think it’s really smart to bring that up, eh? Because now, people, now everybody listening to our conversation, you can think of the same kind of image, but also that I think, totally the kind of thing that organizations would think to do with staff right is like, Okay, here are the folks that we serve. Here’s some of quote unquote us. Let’s take a photo together. And inevitably, these photos like the two you just suggested when you’re years ago like Ellen and Nairobi, a red in Liberia. It’s like here is this person in the center of all these other people and you are both figuratively and literally centering yourselves instead of centering your community. This is now not a photo about those people. This is a photo about you, and that is kind of the epitome of what we’re talking about. Your right is that you have come in to save them your services, you’re donations. You or whatever it is, um are literally the center of instead of this community truly getting, too to be in that place. So I think that’s a really great, like daily kind of check check and balance for yourself. When you’re when you’re looking at tweets or you’re looking at the way you describe something that you’re looking at a photo, you can just say, Is this photo centering the people that were serving? Or is this photo about us? Um and there are certainly times where a photo should be about you, but that doesn’t mean that the photo should be you surrounded by people you served. Maybe Then it’s a photo of just your staff at you know, the conference table looking on something or you know what I mean. It it’s going to be about you make it only about you and not you. In contrast to your community. Very good point about figuratively and literally making the individual the center surrounded by the community in need. Yeah, excellent. Yeah. See, this is why that’s why we have you on. Because I looked at the same pictures and I did that did not occur to me. But that’s the brilliance of of ah expert, you know, lots of flecks of expert Well, in this case, we have one expert and me but other ex other people contributing, exper having experts contribute. That’s what I mean. Okay. You think about this, You know, it’s a value of having multiple multiple opinions and and eyes on something. Very. It was very well said. Thank you for that. Um, I was thinking you buy what? I wasn’t thinking me for what I just said. Yeah, that was obviously you’re welcome. I had a defective. I wouldn’t I would probably not consider it effort, perspective, but it is an opinionated one. So, uh, you bring a lot of insight and wisdom to the show. Um, yeah. You know, another part of the problem is that these images are descriptions, You know that it’s one dimensional. You know, if I’m here or if you swoop in with your donation from the United States, that’s going to solve the problem. The child will no longer have empty hands reaching out, you know, on. And we just have a minute. But weaken. Obviously, we can keep talking beyond the break. Poverty is multidemensional mean. It includes Gover, the local community. The local community needs to be empowered. It includes, um, well, and I think thinking about those layers, we can talk more about this. Those layers of change that need to happen are are important. But also, as we continue to see the kind of donor base of America change as Boomer’s got older and millennials, you know, come into more of the majority in the world of social action that there is also your community. Your audience for this kind of message also knows there are multiple layers and maybe that immediate kind of gut reaction of Oh, my gosh, this crisis just happened. I want to respond, is there? But if you also if that’s all that you do, you may not be really seen as a sustainable organization undressing all of those layers of change. And I think that’s a huge opportunity. No, you’re seeing yourself. Yes, Thio one dimensionally. All right. Uh, time for our last break. Turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support, media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. They’re at turn hyphen to dot CEO, and we’ve got butt loads more time for Amy Sample Ward and poverty. Porn? Yes, we were just saying, Yeah, it it Ah, it narrows the the viewers focus to just donate. And there’s a lot more that you can do. I mean, and, you know, if we’re talking about, um, poverty and hunger, I mean that that could reach to, you know, advocacy around, Ah, global climate change policies, which you’re never going to get from these one dimensional ideas. No, in little. I mean, I also don’t wanna got buckslip name now to our conversation up for this idea that every single tweet, every single picture, every single email appeal needs to talk people through. How do you know this action today is connected to this action in this all the way on. That’s not what we’re trying to recommend. That every single one of those has to include all of that context. But it should always include the context of what really you’re asking for. If you are asking for donations for a really immediate need, the donation is still not the actual transaction of those medical supplies. Most likely, right. So So at least framing it truly in what it is people are donating Thio. Was there an earthquake? And these donations are in part to buy medical equipment and to support the medical teams administering it. Well, that’s also a really great story. Who are these medical teams? What kind of expertise are they bringing? You know, you don’t just have to focus on transactions, because when you do, you make both the donor feel like they’re part of a band transaction and the people receiving the support her the end of a transaction. I don’t think anyone really means for that. I like, you know, back to that good intent piece intent is not impact, but also, even even in this case, I don’t think that’s really what you intend. You know it so So raise that up and don’t focus on Oh, this is just like your example before I really like that, you know, Now these hands are full, doesn’t know what happened in here, you know, and so really talkto what is happening. And at a a tactical level, you know, there’s this is opportunity for terrific content. No direct people to, you know, you and I was talking about fresh content and depth of content. You can tell the story elsewhere. So the tweet is bringing. The tweet is briefed The Facebook post, the ad, whatever is brief. But then there’s a link to you know, the back story back-up more medical in this example who these medical teams are. You have an instagram account. Well, you could do, you know, instagram stories with either, you know, actual quick video interviews, updates Facebook, live there like there’s a ton of rich content you could have when you move to trying to really own what you do and what your story is, instead of trying to focus on this idea of a really, really immediate really, really fast transaction. Because that’s not the humanity that you want to be representing anyway. Yeah, yeah. And and wrapped wrapped up in all this is you know, the idea that the important idea that the donations air not sufficient while while they’re necessary and we do need them, they’re not going to solve the problem alone. Exactly the bigger context. You know that. And I love your idea. The xero You’re not talked about this a little. Okay. Going well, just you can You can actually then shift the spotlight to some of the work that you’re doing. Like you’re saying, you know, show videos of some of the programs and some of the care that you’re actually giving you can you can shift the lens back to you as the provider. You know, when it’s all in the bigger context. It’s a part of the bigger context. Well, I think there’s two things to think about here. One is that we talked about before. Any campaign, whether it’s fund-raising campaign, our advocacy or whatever is never gonna have only one ask, of course, every you know, kind of sector best practices. You only have one ask a time. But once someone takes that action, they have made the donations they have called their senator. Whatever you need to be ready with another ask because they were just willing to do what you ask them to do. You might as well tell them that to do something else right? So instead of having you know, here’s eight different things, please do what you want. You give people one, and when they do it, you take them to the next step. Then you take them to the next step and you just keep going. And, well, from a tactical perspective, definitely think about it that way. And from a content perspective, just as you’re recommending, I love that. Get people hooked in and then have them kind of watch the whole thing play out, right? Continue to see how the work is happening on the other thing to think about, I think, is that there’s a lot to be sad out in the sector right now about how you know, there are certain changes in fund-raising that people are more connected to a topic than necessarily a single organization that they’re gonna donate to over a year over year. You know that they care more about, um, the topic and whoever is maybe doing something good on that topic is who gets their money. This is a great way to keep people actually hooked to your organization instead of floating between organizations in the same cause. Because you’re not just getting them to have a single transaction with you because it was immediate and compelling and kind of Ah, uh, fast. Wait for them to feel connected. You have then continuing to connect them to you with these with content, of course, but also with those continued actions, ways where they’re getting deeper and deeper into this and feeling like, yeah, I donated, but also high, you know, submitted, uh, short message for the medical team to provide to those children. And they’re starting to actually feel like they are a part of your work, which is the whole goal of this. Instead of feeling like, Oh, I feel relieved that I sent my $10 to that organization and I don’t even know who they were because it was just the organization I saw on Facebook, right? So really shifting. How you frame all of this is, of course, as we’re talking about today getting you out of this trap of poverty porn. But it’s also serving you to build real community with these supporters. Yeah, it’s the how many guests we’ve had on urging the relational over the transactional That’s you. You put a lot of depth into it, but you and I have talked about it and other guests as well. That’s the way to stand out, you know, as you said, that’s the way to bring people to your cause and keep the mayor. While the, um the ah, a lot of lot of, ah, activists and donors are you’re saying more mission oriented versus organization oriented. But, you know, if you can draw them into your work there, they will stay with you. It’s the relation, actually, Yeah, it’s the relationship, of course. All right. Um, you know, another. Another facet of this is that, um all you know, these regions are not monolithic. All of Central America, South America and Africa are not poor on and needy and destitute. You know, there are thriving cities. There’s beautiful, rich history, culture, toe, all of these, you know, to all the African nations and all these other parts. I’m talking about parts of the world I’m talking about. So you know, e I think you want some balance there, too. Tooley. And I think there’s argument to be made that there are can definitions that we have organizations. We as Americans. We, as white folks, can put onto what is, uh, community experiencing property or what is a geographic area that lacks access to refers is that are not going to be a shared definition by the people living in those communities. And I think That’s a really important thing to remember as organizations trying to highlight the service you are providing or the way that you’re serving that community. Is that your definition of their needs and comparatively, to you? You know how how unquote in property they are is going to feel different in their own lived experience. So finding ways where they can authentically talk about again back to it was the beginning. You know, their hopes and dreams, their challenges, their life, and the way that they benefit or appreciate the services is going to feel far truer and position your organization into their community than it is for you to say from the outside. You know, look at this community we’ve kind of defined as meeting this And here’s how we’re going to fix, you know, back to that idea that are you centering you and and the organization? Are you really centering this community? How How are you doing that? Um, recognizing that part of deciding who you know that a certain community is or is not in need is part of that we’re gonna leave it there. Any simple word? Excellent. Thank you so much for talking about Tony Anna. What the a scary topic for some, but I think it was a good conversation. I absolutely agree. And we’re not scared to be a little provocative. No, not at all. Thank you. She’s Amy Sample Ward at Amy Sample Ward dot or GE and at Amy Rs Ward. Next week I’ll be back live in the studio. I know that’s what you live for. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. CPS. Guiding YOU beyond the numbers Witness cps dot com Bye Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there Complete accounting solution made for non-profits tourney dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for the free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non-profit, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Ah, creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. 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Nonprofit Radio for September 6, 2019: New Power

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Henry Timms: New Power
Why do some leap ahead while others fall behind in our chaotic, connected age? Co-author Henry Timms, president & CEO of 92nd Street Y, has the answers from his book, “New Power.” (Originally aired 6/8/18)




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Transcript for 456_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190906.mp3 Processed on: 2019-09-07T00:59:44.134Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…09…456_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190906.mp3.630559234.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/09/456_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190906.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on her aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go through valvular us if you told me the twisted idea that you missed today’s show. New Power. Why do some leap ahead while others fall behind in our chaotic, connected age? Co author Henry Timms, president and CEO of 92nd Street. Why has the answers from his book New Power This originally aired June 8th 2018 on Tony Take Too Bad Data at Consumer Reports Responsive by Wagner C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software The Nolly Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits? Tony got em a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is New Power with Henry Timms. I’m very glad to welcome back Henry Timms to the studio. He is co author with Jeremy heimans of the new book New Power. How Power Works in Our Hyper Connected World. and how to make it work for you. He’s president and CEO of 92nd Street. Why he’s cofounder of giving Tuesday. Henry is a visiting fellow at Stanford University’s Center on Philanthropy and Civil Society. He’s at Henry Timms, and the book is at this is new power dot com. Welcome back to studio. Henry Timms is very nice to be back. I’m very glad to have you. It’s been a couple of years we were last time talking about, I don’t know. Maybe it was the third year of giving Tuesday or something like that. Back in the infant days of giving, choose to indeed, which is Ah, a new power organization. New power model on. We’ll get. We’ll get to that and lots of others. But, you know, let’s start at the basics. What, uh what is this New power? Why do we need this book? Well, I think actually giving Tuesday is quite a good example of new power works. So what new power is is this power Thio, Mobilize power in a world where we’re all connected? How do you think about mobilizing a crowd around the things you want to happen in the world? and so e-giving Tuesdays what we would call a new power campaign. So giving Tuesday was designed to be owned by a lot of people that was designed to be connected. It was designed to be kind of ownerless. It was designed to be made by many, which is very different design than how you might think of the old power design of something like giving Tuesday. So let’s just imagine, as a thought experiment you were gonna have a national day of giving an old power world. You would call it something like the 92nd Street wise giving Tuesday right co-branded very heavily. You’d make sure that anyone who was involved put your logo as high as they could on their pay. You should make them sign a long legal agreement, saying the way they were going to give was his one specific way on this one specific day. And if we had done that with those kind of old power mindset, e-giving Tuesday would have scales nowhere. Instead, what we did with giving Tuesday with we took our brand off it we designed giving Tuesday so it would become more interesting as other people grabbed it so e-giving Tuesday has become giving Blue Day and at the University of Michigan Rescue Mission, Everyone and e-giving Shoes Day dressed for success and IT list goes on on giving week in Singapore. It’s now in 100 countries on it, and the reason that has happened is could be designed in a new power way that we designed it so other people could could make it and take it somewhere new on. And so, in a way, if you think about what new power is, new powers kind of lives in the spirit of giving Tuesday, which it’s It’s this way of thinking about the world where what you’re trying to do is not create a program that is all about you, that you download onto the world in this stage, or trying to create a movement that is around the set of shared values that mobilizes other people around. Your mission has a really important idea. Other people around your mission. If you think about to take a big step back, think about the world right now. Who’s winning right now? Anyone who is winning right now really understands this new power, so I’ll give you a couple of examples. Here’s an inspiring one that never again kids. The park from high school kids. Now that was a distributed movement. It was technology focused. It was made by many. It surged very quickly through the country and powerful ways. You look at the metoo movement again. Metoo got stronger and stronger as more people added their voices. More people connected together. It wasn’t about one person. It was founded, of course, by the activist Tirana book. But the new incarnation of metoo is about is about millions of women everywhere now telling their stories in a communal way so we could be very inspired by new power movements like Never Again will like me too. But you can also look att, the success of Donald Trump. There’s a darker side. Well, I mean, I know that you think of Isis That’s your political commentary rather than mine. But so, yeah, I think there is a darker side, which is so if you look at if you look at the way in which Donald Trump, whatever your view on the president, maybe he has worked out how to take this crowd and to surge this crowd into office with him and to support his agenda. Buy-in this huge mobilization based around him. You think back over the election, his capacity to conjure up to mobilize that crowd was with what really got him to stand out. If you remember back when the throughout the election, the favorable unfavorable ratings, a favorite bilich Hillary’s favorable was always hyre than Trump’s. Neither were very high, but he was always hyre than Trump’s. But what Trump got right with intensity. He built this intensity a scale around his movement. He retweeted the most extreme supporters. He promised toe pay, the fees of people who punched protesters. He created this kind of intensity and a movement around him, which surged him into office. And so what new power is and whether it’s a trump who’s working out how to do this, whether it’s the never again kids, whether it’s a platform like Facebook or uber. What is constant in all of these models is people have worked out how to mobilize people around their mission in a powerful way, and that’s what the book is about. The book says that no matter whether you’re running a small non-profit or you’re running for political office if you don’t know how to understand the power of the crowd had howto start movements how to spread ideas, how to raise money. If you haven’t got this new suite of skills, you’re gonna get left behind the dark example that I was thinking of eyes was Isis, right? You, you, you you come back to them several times in the book Also harnessing the new the new power Well, for good reason There’s a story off, eh? Scottish schoolgirl called oxen Mark Mood in Glasgow and she way learn about her research in the book. She comes from a nice family. She loves Harry Potter. She’s described as somebody who can’t find her way into the center of Glasgow on the bus on Dhe. But in the evenings she’s being radicalized online and no one knows about this. And one day she disappears. Onda phone. Three days later, the phone rings and she’s calling from the borders of Syria and she’s left home and she’s made. She’s she’s made me hard. And what’s interesting is her story that doesn’t end. What then happens with Dr Markham, you know, she actually becomes one of Isis is most effective recruiters, and she builds this girl to girl network. That’s that’s how it’s referred to using all of these new power tools she uses all the social media tools she has is amazingly emotional. On a motive tumbler account, she uses telegram. She works out how to kind of get this crowd of girls like her around the world. Mobilized around. Isis is mission on dhe. Girls start following her to Iraq and Syria. Girls start making the same journey that she has made because she’s worked out how to get the power of the crowd heading in the direction that she wants to. On This, of course, is someone This is essentially a medieval theocracy who has worked out how to give agency to their followers so their followers can take that movement and make it their own. If you want to contrast the new power of Axum mark mood, I think about how the State Department tried to deal with this. So at the same time, she’s spreading her ideas in this very new power way around the world. The State Department. The first thing they do is they dropped cartoons out of the back of a bomber to land on the heads off civilian population literally top down. It’s really top down on they had. The that tactic was first used in the first World War 100 year old tactic they’re using. They then eventually got a Twitter account, which was called Think Again, Turn away exclamation mark on basically scolded people for wanting to join Isis, commanding right with with a big logo of the State Department. And, as it turned out, to tactics not likely to dissuade potential, Hardee’s is scolding them on big State Department lugers. So those kind of stakes of our time, right? Are you approaching the world with a new power mindset where you understand how to connect these krauz and tow spread agency throughout movement and to connect people and offer people belong in an agency? Or you still in a mode where you think you’re just dropping down your leaflets on the world and the job of people there simply to absorb your content? And in the nonprofit sector in particular, we still see a lot of organizations who is still in the kind of old power Mark Mo’s on. They aren’t working out this set of new power skills. It’s time for a break. Weather CP is they have a new wagon are on September 10th. Leaders Guide to Understanding, not for profit financials, CEOs, boardmember directors. You don’t need accounting detail, but a basic understanding of financial statements will improve your decision. Making. You got a witness? Cps dot com Quick resource is and upcoming events. Oh, but did you miss it? And you need the archive. Go to Wagner cps dot com. Quick Resource is and recorded events. See how they see the symmetry. One is upcoming events, the other was recorded events. It’s all very, very diametrically advantaged. Now back to new power. The book starts early on. There’s, ah, very good example of another example that’s very timely new old power clashing with new power. Harvey Weinstein and metoo. You tell that it’s it’s the same contrast, but it’s so topical. Well, yeah, it was actually very last bit of the book that we wrote, but because it was so over the moment that the so you think about the way that Harvey Weinstein exercised power. It’s kind of the worst kind of old power, so it really waas you know, he had this power like a currency, right? He had this huge store of power he could decide to spend down or no greenlight movies. He could start stop careers. He could startles, stop rumors. He literally held Hollywood in his hand for decades, and it was very much about him. Real Leader, Leader driven approach, which is often true in the old power world. There was a funny statistic that over the last 30 years, the two people thanked most often from the stage off the Oscars were Harvey Weinstein and God. So that’s one of the ultimate old power. And of course, what metoo does is plays a very large part in toppling him through its capacity to conjure up new power. So metoo was made by many people. That wasn’t about one leader, that it was very much leader full as a movement. It it changed. It Maur fu. It was open. It was participatory. All of these different flavors were really about how you think about power very different. We contrast the power of Harvey Weinstein, which is powers a currency to the power of something like me too, which is power is a current new power is something that you don’t own it. It flows on and it moves. And if you can shape it in the direction you’re trying to get in the world, you can have a huge impact. But it’s a very different way about thinking about how power flows in the world. You Ah, you’ve ruined my life with this with this book. Well, that was That’s the new blub for the paperback durney martignetti. I’ve ruined your life. Well, it is. It is about me because I’ve been going through. We’re going through New York reading this book on I’m tagging things as your soul power. I don’t have the bus drivers subway. I’m thinking the subway conductors. God, you’re so old power. I mean, and I could be on a lift right now, um, and lift the new bird there. An interesting contrast between the different models and values. So I’m I’m I’m hypersensitive Thio old power. And then I had to bring it to myself, and I was thinking podcasting, podcasting. I I’m very, very serious, But some very concerned podcasting is, uh I curate and produce and distribute. And then about 12 or 13,000 people Listen, I mean that’s Is that classic old power? Yes. Yeah. So the question what happened? I mean, I was an early adopter. I wasn’t a pioneer in podcasting, but I was an early adopter. What the hell happened in eight years? I got passed by. So his question, I suppose, which is what were what would you What would you and could you do with those 13,000 people other than asking them to listen? So the old power will typically off people to do one of two things you consume or you comply? Those were the behaviors most organizations look for. So media was a good example, right? You consume the media, podcasting, you consume the podcast. The government base, he said, follow the laws do-it-yourself old. But we didn’t re ask people to do much more than that. And so the interesting question, I think with media in particular, is what is the invitation for people to doom or than simply consume? How can they play a role in these kinds of opportunities and moments on it’s telling that you look at things like voting on American Idol. More people vote for American Idol than ever in presidential fashions, right? people want to consume you look a platform like read it. So read it is entirely curated. It’s participatory engine. All of the things that end up on the front page of Reddit end up there because the crowd wants them on the front page of Reddit. All of these platforms what? What? We were classified. New power platforms are designed to ask people to do more than simply to consume. And so, in an era where now half of people. And I’m sure it’s true of people listening to this podcast right now as the interesting exercise. If you’re interested, if the moment you listen to this, you have a phone in your hand and you are looking at your phone, please tweet about. So whenever he is that he is an excellent abila live excise Right now, anyone who is listening right now who is who has a phone in their handlers are looking at their phone whilst listening for this tweet about it. And if you’re listening to this on download on, you’re also looking at your phone to tweet about it because my suspicion is and this is true of TV. Half of the people watching TV now staring another phone. So the question is, why are they staring at another phone? Is it cause TV’s boring, you know, to some degree. But it’s also because they’re looking for a way to be involved in something new that they’re not content with. Just sitting there watching the TV. They want to do something else. So the organizations and individuals who are winning right now working out what that invitation to participate looks like. And I’ll give you another example, which I think is an interesting one. Looked something like Snapchat, right. Before you give you example, if you’re gonna tweet, use hashtag non-profit radio on hashtag new power. Good, very nastad non-profit radio hashtag new power. I’d be interested to know whether that where the people are listening to this and looking at something else, I think they probably are. So the question then becomes like Snapchat is a great example, which is wider Snapchat work. It works because you’re asking people to do more than consume when it’s Facebook work. You’re not just consuming content, you’re sharing it, you’re liking it, your creating your own content where someone like the ice bucket challenge work. It works because we’re asking you to do more than simply donate. That list goes on here. But whatever you’re trying to get done in the world right now, if the only invitation you have is consume, you are likely gonna have an old power model which may not hold up over time. Yeah, that’s why I’m scared. Well, I don’t think you should be scared. I tweeted I tweeted about two hours ago. We hope I’m very nervous about this. Well, so he don’t listen. I said please don’t listen. Well, isn’t actually in the downfall of the show. Let’s try an experiment. Let’s try a second experiment now. So we have is turning into a therapy session way don’t We don’t need therapy in my country. So if you think about if you think your way, I need to know we have people. No, but I like your question. No, I want to try an experiment. Trying, trying to be new power. You hes my experiment central. Well, so his experiment, your listeners, a largely non-profit people. Okay, so we have a frame in the book for how you think about spreading ideas. Let me tell you about that frame. And then let’s challenge your listeners to think about that frame and work out a way. They could apply it to their own worlds. So the frame is around, how you spread ideas. So what we say in the book is, if you want to spread ideas in the new power world, it’s very different than the old Powell’s. So in the old power world, what we would do, we try and create the perfect sound by or the kind of perfect logo and get everyone to replicated or admire it. In the new power world, the ideas that end up working are ones that are actually designed to spread sideways. They’re designed to pass from person to person to person to person. And there are three key principles. If you want your ideas to spread in a new power world, unless use the ice bucket challenge a Zen example here I think it’s a good one. The first principle. It is actionable. You’re asking people to do something. So the ice bucket challenge they were asking people to pour water over their head to donate, to share, to nominate those bunch of things you’re asking people to do so number one is actionable. Number two is connected. Theo Ice Bucket Challenge work because it tied people together peer-to-peer so that it really began when a group of golfers connected with a group of L S sufferers and that kind of began the ice bucket challenge. But the reason it worked in general is because it was past between peoples peer groups, so people nominated other people to do the ice bucket challenge. It moved what we call move sideways. The second principle of your idea spreading is connected. The third principle is extensible. You create ideas that can turn into something else. So when the ice bucket challenge, when the actor Patrick Stewart did the ice Bucket challenge instead of pouring water over his head, he got a porter’s off large whisky, dropped some ice cubes in, wrote a check and then said cheers to the camera. The idea could turn into something else. It wasn’t a franchise, it was an extensible idea. So those three principal spell ace, a C actionable connected extensible e-giving Tuesday, Another good example, right? It’s actionable. It’s giving Tuesday. You give it’s connected, it ties you to all these other people are always other causes. Its extensible giving Tuesday turns into all sorts of different things that move around of the world. Metoo is another example. So metoo actionable metoo literally. It’s actually more connected. It ties you to all of these other women. It ties you to this shared cause. Extensible. When metoo gets to Frantz, it turns into denounce your pig. So even the framing itself changes. So here’s the challenge. Fuel. 13,000 listeners think about those three principles actionable connected. Extensible. Think about the things you’re trying to get done in the world. And can you imagine an experiment with your work with your ideas with your cause that you could design in an ace way? Um, have a go at that, See how it goes on, then tweet back What you learn to hashtag non-profit radio on. Let’s see what we learn and hash tag New power. No, I’m gonna be very new power about it. I don’t only my brand in there. You feel free? I just wanted you to read it. I I constantly follow new power non-profit radio tweets. Okay, Don’t Okay. Okay. Um I mean, I just wanted to have a way to find them. Okay, I think I think I’d like to hear from anybody. If that’s see, that’s chapter three of the book. I think about that framework. See if it works for you. See what you could design, even in a small way, with those principles, and see where it takes you. Okay, um, turning into a therapy session. But so if I was gonna apply this to tow a podcast, um, it’s got it’s more than just, you know, submit your questions. You know, that’s that’s me choosing the guests, and then you submit questions. You know, it’s gotta be, um but but how did you But then how do you get it to everybody? I mean, it has to be distributed. What isn’t I mean, that’s there. I think they’re a couple of answers to that. What one is? I think the exercise we just did is a step in right direction, which is you’re you’re working out ways, and this is a kind of Keanu power principle. You’re working out ways to invite people to do more than simply listen. So what? I just did what I said. Here’s set of ideas. What do you think can you create some interesting content around those and maybe, maybe not. We’ll see. It’s an experiment, maybe something this is that frame will resonate with them. They’ll take it and put it to their own ideas, and they’ll share something back with you. Now if they do share some things back with you, how would you then think about taking that content in learning from that content, sharing with other listeners, building a community around those ideas. You then starts getting kind of back and forth between US host in the community at large on building that relationship, I think seems to me the interesting future off media in general, which is people are gonna want to have their voices heard We’re so used to face. But why do we love Facebook so much? We love it because it allows us to feel like our voices hurt right. We get to comment on things we get to like. Things is very. It’s very human. It’s very, um, is very provocative for people to feel like they have agency. So So I think people need to design at the interesting. The irony of podcasting actually is what ended up happening is podcasting itself is a very new power tool, so anyone could start a podcast where I could your podcast on my phone as I leave today. So it’s actually democratized the capacity to create media. What’s interesting is most people then approached in a very old power way. So what’s happened is, lots of people have just behave like they’re the BBC. I’m gonna have my all for your voice and my oath. Auriol voice will be broadcast down to the world. What hasn’t happened is a lot of people have grabbed it and actually then used the opportunity to engaged, actually engaged in very new power ways. But I’ll give you an example of an organization. I really like the look off Who does this well, which is the organization called the correspondent altum correspondent in the Netherlands to their media company. There they were, start up. They were crowdfunded into existence, their newspaper, which is supported by their members. So it’s all funded by the readers themselves, and they even now give their readers profile, full profile pictures and expertise domains. So if they’re writing an article about national security, they have 400 readers who have had careers and national security who have identified their national security experts. They then crowdsourced the articles they’re writing with this group insights and comments and opinions before those are schools and then posted. So they thought about the whole process of journalism and how every point you can invite more people to play a meaningful role in how that work is shaped and shared on Bill on. So I think the future of this work looks a bit more like that Where media becomes There is definitely a role for the for the expert, for the for the journalist. But that journalist is building a high quality, participatory set of behaviors around their art. I think that’s the key lesson. Let’s make something explicit the models versus the values. There’s a chart table trying the book with four quadrants, um and castles and coop tres and crowds. And remember the 4th 1 butt And let’s let’s, uh, yeah, I want I want to flush out some of the more details before we go toe models of leadership, ideas of leadership, actionable things that non-profits can be thinking about beyond the ace. I mean, I love the East Challenge, so these models and values. So we make a distinction between the whether you have a new power model on whether you have new power vase and they’re very different things. So a new power model is basically, you have this capacity to deliver mass participation, and Pierre collaborations of Facebook is the best example. Facebook is amazing new power model. The model allows lots of people to collaborate, connects, create, share all those good things. And the, uh, you think about the i. R S. P. I. R s does not have that model or the IRS simply says pale taxes. And here it is, and then they’re not engaging with you in a participatory away in a meaningful way. They just simply telling you to do as you’re told now new power values. There are those organizations who have new power values, who care about things that the wisdom of the crowd and transparency and kind of make a culture all of those good things. What we think of his new power values and an old power values much more around kind of professionalism, a managerial ism and expertise and all of those kinds of things. So there’s a really balance now between whether you have a new power model or it’ll power model on whether you have old power values or new power values, and you start thinking about your own organization. It’s an interesting thing to think about. So we think about these kind of four archetypes in the world that the first of the castles and the castles are organizations who have no power models and old power values to the I. R. S is a perfect example of that. I put the United Way when we wrote the H. P. R P s. I put the United Way in that quadrant two. They have old power values and an old power model. Interestingly, a lot of local chapters of the United Way. We’re actually moving away from that model now toe quite effective degrees. But I think in the philanthropy world, you can think about kind of the old school United way mortal. Where everyone has to do is they’re told, pay for their put their money into their local parts of their boss. Looks good, right? Veil, pal model you then think about the cheerleaders and cheerleaders of those organizations who have old power models still but actually are exhibiting new power values. So think about the clothing firm Patagonia. They sell clothes, right? They’re asking you to consume. That’s what they do. But actually, they’re building a very participatory brand. They’ve got a whole activism platform now around their brand they’re trying to build. They’ve been very transparent about their supply chain, even some aspects of it. Quite troubling. So we see a lot of organizations in this kind of cheerleading space where they haven’t really changed their core mortal. But their values are starting to shift, and then we have what we think is kind of the crowds and the crowds have new power models and a new power values. So think about the extreme thing about black lives matter. Um, extraordinary new power model distributed extraordinary new power values. They’re so intentional about being a leader full, they use that phrase all the time. I lead a full organization about how they make lots of people more powerful on that quadrant is really about new power, meeting new power. And then, most interesting of all, is perhaps the quadrant we think about is the cooperators, and these are people who have worked out new power models but actually have very old power values. So we’ll use Facebook again as an example. So Facebook has this amazing new power model, but their values of very old power it’s very secretive. The governance is really hidden in a small number of people. The algorithms. We have no idea what they’re doing or how they’re working, and they shape our lives. Well, elections the value of Facebook. We contribute our data day after day after day, and other people extract the profits. So they’ve co opted new power. Uber also were also to a lot of people in the coop. And interestingly, there’s been a real one of the interesting. One of the interesting phenomena in recent months has been this kind of rising political consciousness against the platforms that, you know, for years, there was this kind of huge, utopian enthusiasm, for we’re gonna connect the world, and if the world’s all connected, everything will be terrific and people know that’s not true. Now we know that actually connectivity alone, it isn’t gonna deliver some instant utopia. What was actually gonna happen is all of this participation that we’re all doing actually makes a few people, very powerful and leaves a lot of people actually less powerful. So the big philanthropic question of our times Well, certainly one of them not the big question. One of them is gonna be. How do we think about platforms? How do we think about their role in a philanthropic world? How do we think about the the intermediaries? We all now hovers non-profits like a Facebook who often will be the distance between us and our audiences that often be smart. And then there’s some amazing things happen. Facebook has done some terrific stuff recently around waving fees around giving and on connectivity. And it’s actually a lot of science of I think I see some very hopeful science commit Facebook in terms of how they’re thinking about their philanthropic role. But arguably they’ve very quickly become one of the most powerful philanthropic actors in the world. And so how they think about that set of questions is gonna be very interesting. Big implications, right? Yeah, huge. We have about a minute and 1/2 or so before break. A couple of weeks ago, I had Sheila Warren on from the World Economic Forum, talking about Blockchain technology. What’s the potential around Blockchain and this this distributed in centralized values that we’re talking about? Well, it’ll block pain is a great new power model. So it’s It’s a distributed leisure, right? So the nature of it is not too centralized to not be leader driven to not to be talked down but actually to rely upon the wisdom of the crowd to develop trust in transactions. So I think, on paper, hugely promising. Here’s my note of caution. The hype around the block chain reminds me of the hype around the web of the beginning, right. It will be amazing. It will all be descended. Flies will be distributing power. It will bring down all these governments. Everything will be the same again. And actually, of course, what ends up happening. And Tim Berners Lee predicted this early on. Actually, what ends up happening is on this utopia. We build these platforms on top of it, which actually intermediate a lot of the platform. So for all the hope and hype around blocked kayman, I think both are legitimate. I think we should also strike a note of caution that we’ve heard this record before and on paper, of course. You know, I always think Blockchain is kind of incorruptible in the same way the Titanic was unsinkable, right? I think they’re probably, sir. There are probably some dangers ahead, but But Net Net. I think I’m very hopeful. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software quote. Kruckel Mountain software is simple to use, and the support is phenomenal. With a program like QuickBooks, you don’t have support. If you don’t have support, it’s worth nothing. End quote. Says Christine Christenson. She’s the owner of Broomfield St Sheet Metal, not street metal sheet metal. Okay, not a non-profit, but she has a lot of experience with Cougar Mountain, so you can learn from her. They have a free 60 day trial. Cougar Mountain does not Broomfield, and the way to find that is the listener landing page tony dot m a slash cougar Mountain free 60 day trial. Now time for Tony. Take two. My dad and I have very close names for formal stuff. Signing up for things that center. I use Anthony So Anthony martignetti. My dad is Anthony J. Martignetti. We are both members of Consumer Reports, and when I moved, consume reports in their zeal to be proactive and not lose touch with a long standing member. He’s a longer standing member than me, Um, conflated us and through some sort of address search, they thought Anthony J. Which is my dad, was the one who moved to North Carolina. So I started getting Anthony J. Martignetti mail at my North Carolina address. Meanwhile, Anthony J. Martignetti is still living in New Jersey. He hasn’t moved, so they they had a good intention. But they screwed it up. And I’ve told them it’s been four or five times now that I’ve written to them and e mailed them, and they haven’t straightened it out yet. So I’m hoping maybe this will get them to figure it out. Well, I’ve already figured out for them to correct the mistake that they made, and I go into a little more, uh, snarky detail on the video so you can check out the video. It is bad data at Consumer Reports, or I might call it a Consumer reports. You’ve got bad data, but you’ll find it. It won’t be difficult. And that, of course, is that tony martignetti dot com and that is Tony’s Take Two. Now Back to New Power with Henry Timms. Henry Timms is with us, and we’re talking about his new book, New Power. You Need You Just Get the Damn Book because you know we can’t cover in an hour. It’s just that simple. The book is at this is new power dot com. Henry is at Henry Timms T. I. M. M s, um, book publishing. That’s very old power. 80. How come you didn’t self self publisher do something less traditional? I think it’s very, very fair question there. So in a way, the irony of the the work we’ve done on new powers. It began in Harvard Business Review and they published by Penguin. Random House. So I think it fair to say we know the irony in this. Here’s my Here’s my defense, which, which is to say this, that actually our book never says old power, Bad new power. Good. In fact, if you think about the arc of how we spread some of these ideas, the kind of expertise at Harvard Business Review, these ideas would never got. I got into the mainstream in the way that they did without the old power of HBR. They They have a very high bar publication. They have an extraordinarily powerful brand that really is top down, right? They create this magazine, they put it into the world, they decide what should be in it, and that’s a lots of people try and get in it, and some of them get often get frustrated by not be able to do that. And so what launched the idea of the book was there was we had this very strategically. We thought, Okay, we want these ideas out there in the world. We want something like HBR to give them that kind of a credibility and kind of put them in the in the minds of the right influences. But what then have wants? The ideas were out there in the world. The reason we wrote the book was their new power kicked in. So what happened with the book with the HBR piece was it was out there in the world. We had such an amazing response from people around the world who radiates be our peace and then started to make it more interesting. So I’ll give you an example. In the UK, they’re a group of health workers, nurses, midwives, health professionals who read the HBR peace and found it was very relevant to the health world. So there’s almost no world more old power than health, right? So you have these doctors and hospitals 10 year from what they should do and lorts people not feeling much agency. And they create a whole curriculum around new power, building on the ideas, making them or interesting making a more relevant to the health sector, which they then used to actually do. Bunch of training all around the world now training frontline health workers in terms of how they think about their own power where it goes in the world. So it’s all things like that. And then we saw things like there was a spy agency here in the U. S. Who reframe their strategy around new power and how they need to think about even a spy agency is old powers. It gets how they recognize they have to enter the new power world so that the book began because we saw this new power reaction to the old power of the HBR peace and all these all these kind enthusiasm spreading up around the world around the book on, we engage that community to as we wrote the book itself. So we brought that community back into the process is we put the book together and again. I think when we wanted to publish the book, we definitely wanted to do it in a way we wanted Toa publish it through someone who would send a lot of signals to the right people that would have the right amount of old power around the book, but also has the right amount of new power around the book, too. So what’s been very interesting with the The book is now It’s out in the world were back in the same place we were in after the HBR pieces. Our time is now much more fostering the new power community around the book, hearing all those people who are working on it around the world and most importantly of all, seeing people build on the thinking. So the high points of us so far with the book out there in the world is when people have grabbed it and made it more interesting. They’re taking ideas and said, Well, here’s how we could take this into our world. They’ve written about new power. They’ve made videos about new power. There was 11 guy who took some of the charts we had done in the book and made much better versions. So it becomes the work itself, becomes attractive. People grab it and take it somewhere new. And that’s where new power kicks in and in publishing more generally, just for what it’s worth, Look at the growth of fan fiction, just as one example of how much is being published now. And if you think about writing in general, here’s an optimistic note hit for new power. We’ve never had more writers in the world than we do right now. There are more people writing and sharing their words. When I was growing up, if you wanted to be a writer, think about, you know, I just turned 40 when I was growing up. You wanna be a writer, you maybe get something in the local newspaper. That was possible, but it was quite a high bar, right? You could get something photocopied by someone at school and given to everyone you know. But actually those were your means of communication that is as much as you could genuinely be a writer unless you got some kind of freak publishing deal and you were one of a handful. But most people had no root for participation thing. Now, about everyone in their lives and the audience is they have the connections, the opportunities they have. We have this become really interesting story of our time is we’ve never had more available human capital than we do right now. People wanting to create things, build things, learn things, mobilize around things, organized events. So the question then becomes who is gonna organize them, where, where they’re gonna end up going. And if those on the side of the angels don’t get good a new power, then all that human agency is actually gonna end up in the hands of worse actors. I think that’s a really important idea behind the book. This isn’t a kind of hey, you should be authentic to win a business kind of a book. This is a book which saying Look, this is the stakes of our time, those those people are on. I would think of your listeners in this group, those people who are kind of fighting the good fight who are on the side of the Angels. If they’re still approaching the world in a kind of press release, you know my way or the highway approach, they’re not gonna be able to mobilize a generation of people who want to add their own stamp on. So that becomes the great challenge of our age. All right, let’s talk about some of the implications for non-profits. Start with leadership. There’s a whole chapter devoted to, you know, uh, what what the implications are for leaders on. I want to focus on leaders of non-profits. No, the creating the crowds. Um, just thinking I mean, you gave the ace challenge. You know what? What we what we what we asking our leaders to do? Well, that’s a really good question. I’ll give you a a somewhat provocative answer, Which is why I think we we are always in danger. Non-profits leaders non-profits that you let the show become about you. The non-profit actually become so defined by the kind of charismatic chief executive who takes up all the space and takes up all the agents like a book author, like someone who’s recently written a book. I don’t not like I’m non-profit. Yeah. Result has a hashtag like that. No, no, Like those. Okay. No, I I think one of the things we worked really hard on actually is the idea that you actually build. You build power inside institutions. So one thing we do a lot of night, Secretary wise, one of the measures we have each year is around adoption of good ideas, which is around. Do people in amongst our team feel their ideas are adoptable? Do they have a chance? If they have a good idea, is gonna be adopted. Or is it? No. We’ve seen significant double digit growth year after year. It in that. And that’s a big measure. I think about our leadership, which is I remember what it was like being an organization when I had ideas. Norman, listen, right. I remember thinking I had lots of good ideas and they weren’t getting on the agenda. And the chief executive wasn’t paying attention. And certainly I think about my own leadership. The measure I have internally is how do we make sure that we can as much as possible mean anyone? Any level feels like their ideas could be adopted and brought through on. A lot of that is about using the chief executive role. Where you have got more people, you’re more available, you’re more in the limelight. How much you can use that to actually encourage the agency and support of others has been a really important idea. I think for that, and I think the for what it’s worth the I’ve been very intentional around. The book has been a book has been a bit of a period for me. Off Maur. I’ve been Maurine the limelight with the book because my book, but we wanna get the ideas out there in the world. But actually previously to that, as I thought about my leadership with CEO, there’s actually been a bit of a disconnect between running the running the 92nd Street. Why we’re actually me being more well known is not useful. Actually, I think, too, the book where it has been a bit more useful. This has been an intentional period, but it had I not written the book, I think I wouldn’t have entered the public light in quite the way that I did, and I also suspect this is just a short term thing. The book that didn’t do the dynamics of the book are actually very different than running the institution. And I think over on the institution why I think we know this because we measure this on annual basis in quite a granular way. You know, I think we do have a real sense that we’re trying to make a lot more people feel like they can have ideas. And that’s also true of the movements we’ve built. So something like giving Tuesday like nobody knows 92nd Street. Why South giving Tuesday? I mean in the nonprofit world like a bunch of pompel? No, because it is that’s inside baseball. But you ask. Anyone who knows about giving Tuesday haven’t got a clue what our role is. What my role. Waas. We made that decision very intentionally, like e-giving shoes. He wasn’t a way that someone could get to know bonem. That wasn’t our goal. And that’s often how these things start up right. They have so one dynamic individual who build something and they get close to famous people. We just haven’t done that. E-giving Tuesday has been designed in a way that actually isn’t about us on the leadership of giving Tuesday. Certainly true of May. I could never do a day’s more work on giving Tuesday in my life, and it would keep going. And that’s a design principle, right? So this is very much about building movements and ideas that are bigger than ourselves. Did you have new power in mind as you were when you cofounded e-giving Tuesday? Yeah, that seven years, seven years ago. So the two things have fed each other. Actually, what’s been really interesting is the world we done the nice industry. Why building movements lighten like giving Tuesday like our Ben Franklin circles, like our women Empower Initiative, all of which have the same design principles they all have kind of fed the thinking. The world has spread the thinking and the thinking has fed the work. So there’s been a real back and forth in that dynamic over the last seven years, and it’s been terrific, like that’s the You know, I’m not a thought leader. That’s not like I you know, we’ve got $65 million budget. We’ve got 1800 employees, right? You know, I run a complicated institution. I love doing that But what was becoming clear is I was doing that work was there was a new way of thinking about the world, all of the thinking that ended up in the book from my side. All this already with Jeremy heimans, my collaborator. But from my side, that thinking was very much influenced by the things we had done it in the 90 second Street. Why, especially we have this Belfer Center for Innovation, which what was founded by a boardmember and is run by Ashley Karen, who has collaborated with me on a lot of these kinds of ideas, and that work has really been formative in terms of shaping some of thinking around the book. You’re gonna be on the show, I think, twice leading up to giving, too. Is that right? We’re trying to get more non-profits to participate in giving Tuesday, so I know she’s coming at least twice the two or three times you know, maybe assigning homework between the session to see how my had what was out first. Yes, Your Grace, that well, that’s yes, that’s the summer project. Um, so in terms of leadership, I mean, so is it Maur channeling and guidance. A CZ, you think rather than leading. I think there’s definitely a sense of so I think a lot about this sonny and my role there. There’s old power, leadership skills and new power leadership skills, right? So think about, you know, we have a bunch of people who are on the payroll on essentially most of that. You can lead a small power skills. You’re you know there are. You’re in charge. You can largely ask people what to do, and they’re going to do the things you ask them to do. And that’s how institutions work right there often have very powerful people. Top running movement is very different than that, because you haven’t got the same kind of power that you haven’t got power over a movement in the same way you do over an institution So e-giving Tuesday. We don’t none of those people on our payroll. They’re participating giving Tuesday because they think it’s a good idea or they’re benefiting from it or they won’t do something useful, and it’s actually a very different set of leadership skills. They’re becoming closer together now, But for a long time I remember thinking a lot about how different it is to run an institution and to lead a movement. How different those sets of skills are. Actually, one of the things that I read it ran up against that. Yeah, right. Well, lots of people do. It’s really this is no easy like, I think it was going to say what this is like. It’s no easy and it’s not binary. So this work doing this work, we’ve done lots of stuff. It hasn’t worked super well and like that’s inevitable. And now you have to keep trying things. That’s how it works. It’s never a case of all new power or a LL old power, but actually how you combine that blended chapter on blended power? There is Chapter nine on their power. So I think that’s right. And I think that is the right prescription for organizations, which I’m not saying to any of the non-profits out there. And it’s not true of us. Give up on your old power. You know, there are moments where export curation makes a huge difference. We have this amazing poetry, Siri’s of the Night, second Street Y and the people who run that just is incredible. First class minds who really know the work and know the field on DNA, the cannon. And they know what program and its delights. Audiences were never gonna stop doing that. But alongside that, we’re also gonna create projects like we did this core project called the words we live in, where we invite people all around the world for one week to share the words that they encountered on their daily journeys to the words you run into day after day after day, what they are and how they matter now that’s an old power and a new power way of thinking about poetry. Expert Curator is giving you the very best That was one colleague. Another colleague created this amazing program, this amazing movement, where encourage people everywhere to share their stories around what words meant to them. Artistically, they’re both valid. They’re just very different muscles. They’re very different skillsets on. I think the right prescription for organizations is Are you an organization who could do both of those things? Well, I think we’re the night sickness rewire trying to become the organization time for our last break turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your work. They’re into media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for new power. We gotta do the live love, et cetera. Live. Listen, a lot of it’s going out. It’s going out. Ah, New York, New York. We got multiple New York, New York. We got Parsippany, New Jersey. Bethesda, Maryland. Listening. Tampa, Florida Live list their love to each of you. Let’s go abroad. Shanghai, China. Anyhow, I’m glad Shanghai’s back. Haven’t been here for a while. We have the UK Um, we have Korea. Annual haserot comes a ham. Nida. We have Thailand. Morocco. We have Ah, Bella to Dante, Brazil Live. Listen to love to Brazil that that’s the first time, I believe. And the podcast pleasantries. Thea, over 12,000. Pushing 13,000 listening on. You’re on your own device at your own time. Very new power, way of listening. You do it on your own. We’re working on the old power side. I’m, uh that was not lost on me. But you can consume it anytime you want. On whatever device you like. After I put it out. So podcast pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections. Those analog radios AM FM stations air out there. Those radios are going nowhere. Analog is not going to die. Don’t fear the new power world. I know that there will always be AM and FM listeners. You know it’s not new power. All power is not technology based. It’s not. It’s it’s different. It’s models and values. It’s not. It’s not based on a technology. There’s analog listeners, am and FM throughout the country, affections to our affiliate station listeners. Thank you for indulging that Henry Timms. No, I was fascinated. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay, because love has got to go out, you know, like, whatever format, the gratitude. But the attitude is always going. New powers come out in Brazil in August, so the Brazilian version has come out all this. So I’m very pleased to hear Brazil being well recognized. There. There? Yes. Look for it. Look for it in August. Okay. Um that was Belle Ita. Bilich. Terra Santa, I believe. Are you gonna be doing some appearances in Brazil. Yeah, we’re gonna do. We’re actually gonna do the book. The book is being published, and we’re gonna do the e-giving. Tuesday’s done very well in Brazil, so we’re doing their e-giving shoes. They launch at the same time. Get the book. This is new power dot com. Just get the book. Um Well, what way would you like to go for your listeners in small and midsize non-profits? A lot of CEO executive directors. A lot of fundraisers. Um what? Well, I tell you some things on my mind and maybe these Maybe this is helpful. Maybe this is not things I’m thinking. It’s helpful, but I don’t like to protect me. I don’t like to present my the I’ve been thinking a lot about intensity. I think a lot about the the importance of driving intense, intense to his organization. So one of things were very good at in the nonprofit world is, you know, powerful causes something that’s something we’re not as good at. All the time is is driving intensity in the people who are surrounding us. So people think very well of us. But actually they are prepared to go to the mat for us on one thing. I think if you think about the organizations and leaders who doing really well right now, they’re actually doing really well with intensity. They’re working out how to build that around their brands. So as a kind of if I were in a room of lots of CEOs and I was, you know, we were going around the room were asked to kind of think about what’s on our mind. One thing on my mind is how we both in our local and global community’s Biltmore intensity thing. That’s an important idea on something which I’m thinking about a lot. I think I’m thinking a lot about virtual reality augmented reality. You know what that’s gonna mean for non-profits? The opportunities we have in there, we just did a capital campaign. We’ve just gone public with our capital campaign. I mean, we did it. We did all of that in virtual reality. So rather than giving people like a brochure which said, you know, he is, this is this is that we gave them a V R headset where they could actually see the night secondary. Why transform in front of their eyes from what it is to what it could be. And we’re very new power idea e-giving people Morvern experience. You’re asking them to kind of engaged already participate, Maurin that and that was really very, very successful with it. It was amazing as a fundraising tool because people really felt like they were apart, something they could really kind of transform the vision. I think I think I think I think a lot about a r N v r and what that is gonna mean for our world. And then I think Thirdly, I’m thinking a lot about things that are the threatened thank you a lot about the the things that we might take him for granted for a long time that now feel under threat and how we can defend those. So you think about some of the work of the night Secretary, why we’ve been believing in things like, you know, importance of public understanding of science and civic activation and thoughtful dialogue about big questions. The wise been doing this for a century. But actually all of those things now feel less like a luxury goods and more like necessities. They feel less like they’re all these nice things to have a more like Well, there are. There is a genuine threat around the world to a set of enlightenment values that we’ve all foster fostered for a very long time. So I think the third thing I’m thinking about a lot right now is kind of what is the role of the nonprofit sector in reaffirming both kind of communitarian and enlightenment values buy-in thoughtful and collective ways. That’s that’s on my mind. That’s also year end. Let’s not Let’s not pretend I want again. The one thing One thing I would say to my colleagues in the field has been all of my time thinking about macro thoughts like a R V r. I do also realize the clock is ticking two year on June 30th. So we’re gonna be doing some work on that, too. The naysayers, if we’re gonna start to institute values and think about new values, is going to be pushed back. The book chronicles the, uh, the designer at 90 secretary. Why? Who was appalled that your logo wasn’t part of the giving Tuesday? Resource is, what do we How do we bring these naysayers? I mean that that’s what was one way of dealing with that. That’s an employee supposed to. Naysayers are on the board and you’re you’re tryingto get them to think in some broader new value kinds of ways. So I I I think we should be grateful for our naysayers, but I don’t think the job is to persuade them or to say yes. I think part of the job of I think there’s a certain type of nay say who just doesn’t like change and they’re just going to say no to anything new, but they don’t like it and like you should do you think those people are worth discounting in general and I just I haven’t got much time for that, but I think it’s a very small percentage of the market then the large percent is the market. People who were genuinely not sure this is a good idea or this is gonna work and them expressing their view in the face of particular with new ideas. People very enthusiastic about new ideas is really good to hear from people who don’t think that the ideas of right when we started giving Tuesday a lot of people thought well, wasn’t a very good idea, and they were the most valuable voices of all. I mean by far because the people who said Hey, this is so cool Let’s do it together That was super helpful with, like, building enthusiasm. It didn’t make it a better project. What made it better project was Remember, Jerry Hirsch has become a friend who who supported giving Tuesday Right back in the beginning, he runs the Lode Star Foundation. I remember he had me on the phone for an hour and 15 minutes. About all things I had wrong about giving Tuesday on I remember was anonymous, helpful conversations I’ve ever had because he genuinely likes new ideas. He just had a bunch of things he didn’t think we’ve got right on. Do you know he was right, actually, as it turned out, So I don’t think our job is to, I think, the extreme naysayers who were just doing a CZ life choice ignore them. Everyone else is an important data point for how you shape an idea or shaper movement. So I hope that we spend more time listening to them, and we’re certainly aboard level. We’ve had some terrific conversations between people who are who are unconvinced. We should be doing work all around the world who think we should be sticking to our local work. Should be focusing on 92nd elects. What business have we got launching? You know, e-giving campaigns with partners in Tanzania, right? It’s a very reasonable question, but but the nature of that dialogue, if it’s done right, you know it’s Zumba. We should be very proud off, right? There’s something thistles gonna get. Very highfalutin, but like there’s something kind of Talmudic Socratic about this, about people being prepared to have different views and to test those views and push them against each other. And if you do that in a decent and honorable in a trusting way, out of that friction, but I think becomes progress, so I hope that’s how I think about naysayers. I do get irritated with people who are kind of anti new ideas because I’m someone who’s very pro new ideas. So I do think there is a kind of default professional mindset, which is everything is wrong until you prove it’s right. I don’t think that’s actually very helpful, but I don’t think we should be too scathing of people who very reasonably roll their eyes once in a while. I’m very grateful for the people. I’ve had so many bad ideas. I mean, so many. And Andi, I’ve been so lucky to have people around me who said, That’s a terrible idea. I tease earlier, read it the story of how they how they, uh, mistreated because we were talking about volunteers. They they had moderators, pure volunteers. Um, we have a few minutes left. What would you tell that? Tell that Reddit story so ready He’s ready fastening its platform because a lot of the channels, all of the challenges, are run by moderators. So these volunteers who actually essentially, are the overseers of the various Reddit channels and so they can work out what’s being said. They can flag things, they could change thing. They can set some of the rules and they consent. She shot the challenge down, so read it had a moment in their community where there was a big kind of ah flashpoint around their CEO, Ellen Pao on her leadership and then her eventual firing, and the whole thing was, was trip was handled pretty badly and then a number of their moderators, the most beloved kind of community managers disappeared. And what happened? Waas The community off moderators turned against the platform, so they actually started shutting. Read it down so that people who were in charge of all these challenge started shutting all the channels down to send the message to ready about the power they have over the platform. And that’s that’s an interesting dynamic. And you’ve seen that play out since that happened with Reddit, you’ve seen campaigns like the Delete uber campaign come along when people are really making meaningful. Essentially, these are platform protests. That’s how to think about them. And so those things are beginning to happen more and more often as people realize that our collective power over some of these platforms is not insignificant. Interesting to the recent Facebook shareholder meeting, there was a big pushback from ordinary average shareholders against the platform itself. So I think one thing you’ll see a lot more off in the months and years ahead as you’ll see much Maur articulate platform protests off groups, off users banding together say Look, I actually expect a B and C from my interaction with with platform. You know, whatever plaque for happens to be read. It learned that lesson. And actually, you know, I think they did learn some lessons from that moment on dhe, their model. It is particularly vulnerable to that because they’ve handed up. So they’ve handed over so much power to their moderators. But also, that’s why they supercharge their platform. What? What Reddit has done so well is they’ve got, um They were all these people around the world who were deeply invested in their work and very responsible for their work. People who oversee the channels that read it, they feel as much connection to their audience is you do to your podcast. I am connected to this podcast. Thank you, Henry Timms. We gotta leave it there. Get the book. For Pete’s sake, just get the book about new power. You’ll find it at this is new power dot com. Follow Henry Timms. He’s at Henry Timms. Thank you so much next week. Peer-to-peer fund-raising and poverty Porn. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. CPS guiding you beyond the numbers Wagner cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits? They’re at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for that free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. 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