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Nonprofit Radio for March 13, 2020: Sexual Harassment In Nonprofits

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Lisa Brauner: Sexual Harassment In Nonprofits
It’s everywhere. Our community is no exception. In this week when the Harvey Weinstein sentencing is scheduled, we return to the perspective from late October 2017, when the allegations against him had just gone public. Attorney Lisa Brauner provides legal perspective for women and organizations. She’s a partner at Perlman+Perlman in New York City. (Originally aired October 27, 2017)

 

 

 

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[00:00:14.44] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:04.16] spk_3:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of Sarko Sisto sis, if you infected me with the idea that you missed today’s show. Sexual harassment in nonprofits it’s everywhere. Our community is no exception in this week when the Harvey Weinstein sentencing is scheduled. We returned to the perspective from late October 2017 when the allegations against him had just gone. Public attorney Lisa Bronner provides legal perspective for women and organizations. She’s a partner at Perlman and Pearlman in New York City. In this originally aired October 27th 2017 tony Stick to 20 NTC were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Kudo Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO here. Is this a broader and sexual harassment in nonprofits?

[00:03:46.96] spk_4:
Sexual harassment, The most recent revelations and national attention started with producer Harvey Weinstein, then the California State Legislature, where 115 legislators, staffers and lobbyists signed an open letter of complaint. The next I saw was screenwriter and director James Toback, who has over 300 women accusing him. I know one. Last October, the Access Hollywood tape embarrassed candidate Donald Trump. About two years ago, many women came out against Bill Cosby. Bring it back to this week. A celebrity chef John Besh and a celebrity journalist, Mark Halperin, are incriminated. Both resigned their positions. It’s everywhere. I think we need to talk about this in nonprofits. The guardian dot com has a piece dated 10 2017 titled, He was a senior manager in a global charity. I was 18 when he assaulted me here in the U. S. A Los Angeles Times article is USC Fundraising executive leaves post amid sexual harassment investigation. That’s from 10 11 17. His name is David Carrera. I’d like your stories and comments to be part of our conversation today. You can call the studio at 8774 Aito for 120877 for a tow for 120 or treat us with the hashtag non profit radio hashtag non profit radio were also on Facebook live on the tony-martignetti non profit radio page. Working on getting that up right now. Let’s bring in Lisa Bronner, my guest for the hour. She’s an attorney and partner at prominent Perlman Law firm in New York City. Her focus is employment law advising and representing employers in workplace law related matters. But she also has advice for employees, volunteers and board members. The firm is at Perlman and perlman dot com. It’s p r l P R L Their brothers spelled same way. Could be different. One within you won with the aid, but it’s not p e r l

[00:03:51.05] spk_2:
and they’re at tax exempt lawyer Lisa brother. Welcome.

[00:03:52.43] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks for coming to the studio. I’m delighted to be here, tony.

[00:04:10.14] spk_4:
Thank you very much. Um, what What? What’s your sense of the prevalence of sexual harassment in non profit? So matter no necessarily numbers, but, uh, as somebody practicing in the in the area. What? What, uh, what’s your feel for this?

[00:04:36.60] spk_0:
I think the issue effects nonprofits justice, it effects for profits. The issue of sexual harassment is an issue dealing with an abuse of power. So when you have ah, you have situations of power dynamic. There are potentially situations where sexual harassment may arise.

[00:04:39.65] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s exploitation of power in a relationship, right? Is unequal power in the relationship?

[00:05:21.73] spk_0:
Yeah. There can be co worker. There can be there can be co worker. Ah, sexual harassment. There can be conduct that’s unwelcome. But what? The things that you were describing Our situations where there is a power dynamic and an abuse of power and justice for profit organizations may not have policies addressing the issue. Non profits as well may have situations where they do not have policies or procedures that address that addressed the topic and that provide a mechanism to address it.

[00:05:48.74] spk_4:
Okay. Okay, um, we’re gonna We’re gonna be talking from the organization perspective. Also, the individual perspective. I did get some comments on the website and by email. Um, so I’ll be sharing those throughout, you know, But let’s, uh I’d like to start with, um, prevention on. I know you do a lot of training in that area for nonprofits. Um what? Let’s Let’s talk about the policy. There ought to be a policy on sexual harassment.

[00:06:01.05] spk_0:
Yes, what

[00:06:01.34] spk_4:
should be in it? What tell Tell us

[00:06:16.20] spk_0:
so a policy regarding sexual harassment should, first of all, not be limited to sexual harassment. But all kinds of unlawful harassment investment that’s based on someone’s legally protected category could be race religion categories that various laws recognize as worthy of legal protection,

[00:06:22.49] spk_4:
orientation, sexual orientation,

[00:07:07.52] spk_0:
orientation, different things like that. So the policy should set out examples of what sexual harassment, what kinds of conduct could constitute sexual harassment. Welcome physical conduct, verbal conduct, unwelcome visual conduct, visual things that could be pictures. Posters could be pornography in the workplace. So the policy should set out what kinds of things give example so that employees and their supervisors understand about what kinds of things could caught could constitute sexual harassment to give examples of the type of behavior that the organization prohibit.

[00:07:08.01] spk_4:
Yeah, what are we talking about? Basically, this is what I’m not asking. You mean essentially, What are we talking about? What kind of conduct behaviors are we talking

[00:07:15.74] spk_0:
about? Okay, so the posse should give examples of what it is. Okay? The policy should also have a complaint procedure and tell employees where they need to go, who they should contact

[00:07:32.80] spk_4:
specifically. Like here’s the phone number. Here is the address of email, maybe address. If it’s an off site location. Here’s the person’s name. I mean, not just contact a supervisor that’s sounds inadequate.

[00:08:24.24] spk_0:
Well, it may be. Contact. Contact a supervisor or contact your supervisor and contact. Human resource is okay. Sometimes the policies will include a phone number or an email, but not always the case. It may be contact wth E. Contact the human Resources Department or contact the director of Human Resource is okay contact in the event it’s It’s your supervisor who’s engaged in who you believe has violated the policy. Contact another supervisor and and or contact human resource is. So in other words, you’re giving your giving the position or the title of the of the person to be contacted and where to go and what the avenue is in order to make a complaint. So it’s important to have the complaint procedure, and it’s also very important that there is a policy that prohibits retaliation. The law prohibits retaliation.

[00:08:39.84] spk_4:
We’re gonna talk about that right now, find to bring it up because part of policy. But, yes, we’re going to get to a situation where someone feels that they were retaliated against on That’s illegal,

[00:08:52.54] spk_0:
right? Okay, that’s illegal. And it’s a very important, very important area to train on and to have a policy about because sometimes the complaints itself, maybe meritless. And what ends up happening is theirs, then retaliation. And that’s also unlawful. And that can also get an organization.

[00:09:09.01] spk_4:
Yeah. Now devolving the situation is devolving badly, right? Okay,

[00:09:10.84] spk_5:
um um,

[00:09:47.60] spk_0:
so that there should be policies. And also there should be postings in the workplace regarding the various agencies at the at the federal and state level. And if the organization’s covered under the federal laws that prohibit discrimination, there should be postings in the workplace letting employees know what their what their rights are with respect to filing a complaint. Externally, the hope is that the organization has a policy that prohibits sexual harassment and a complaint procedure so that it can be addressed internally and early before before an issue escalates. How

[00:10:03.09] spk_4:
prevalent are these policies? I’m hoping I’m sure 100% e I know. Should I? No, that’s the normative. What’s the reality? what do you do? You see that there rocking a lot of places. Uh,

[00:10:33.04] spk_0:
I see that there can be gaps that that there may not always be policies in place and or they haven’t been kept up to date with changes in the law. They’re also should be a policy that addresses even bystander obligation. So if you see something even apply, see something, even if even if they don’t feel that they are that the conduct is directed towards them that they should be reporting it, they should be reporting it using the complaint procedure that it’s an important thing for others who observe violations of the organization’s policy to report it, because that’s a way to prevent these things from occurring.

[00:11:12.91] spk_4:
Your escalate if your witness to something that’s a lot of what’s in the press is a lot of people who are aware stood by Oh, you know, we’re quiet about it, And rumors were, you know, circulated. But never anything official. Uh, don’t I’m thinking of the cases in Ah, in Hollywood, especially, um Okay, um let me, uh Let’s Ah, let’s take a break.

[00:11:37.00] spk_3:
It’s time for a break, wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner. You each tomb and ah, whole firm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s hear more of sexual harassment in nonprofits. Now

[00:11:57.81] spk_4:
back to Lisa Broner. She and I are talking about sexual harassment in nonprofits. You want to join the conversation? 8774804120 is the number, or treat us with hashtag non profit radio. And we’re also on Facebook live. Thank you, Lisa.

[00:11:59.04] spk_0:
You’re welcome. Okay. All right. Yeah.

[00:12:01.08] spk_4:
All right. You don’t go anywhere.

[00:12:02.53] spk_0:
I’m still he

[00:12:03.30] spk_4:
Excellent. All right.

[00:12:04.50] spk_5:
Um, I

[00:12:05.37] spk_2:
want to get

[00:13:59.64] spk_4:
our I want to get our first, um, communique in first story for story this one came from And email. Um, this woman is a professional fundraiser. Once I partnered with the dean and a visiting alumnus who was also a dean at another university for a cultivation dinner. He put his hand on my hand when we were at the table alone. It was very uncomfortable. I must have been barely 30. The next day we had meetings set up for him to meet with other university officials, and I was alone in the car with him. He put his hand on my leg. I really don’t remember the details, but I do remember thinking he was a pig. Another time, an alumnus asked me out during a cultivation meeting. Of course I declined and steer the conversation back on topic of supporting his alma mater. And finally I was working with an alumnus who agreed to make a six figure gift and asked that I pick up the check at his apartment at 5 p.m. I wasn’t thrilled with his request, but I didn’t feel like I had a choice. I went. He offered me a drink. I accepted, and then we went to dinner. The following week, he contacted me and asked if I wanted to meet him again and said that quote, I seemed sad and that he would cheer me up. End quote. It felt so dirty and like he believed I owed him somehow for his gift to the institution. He didn’t like it when I declined and said he was wrong, that I was happily married with one with a beautiful daughter. This raises a couple of things for me. First is is one woman three times three stories. So, you know, we had me to think we hear these numbers, uh, one woman could experience ah, harassment abuse at the hands of multiple guys. Um, Lisa, this race is also an interesting relationship. The fundraiser donor. I mean, the donor obviously has vastly greater power than the fundraiser.

[00:14:05.37] spk_5:
Um,

[00:14:20.07] spk_0:
you raise you raise an excellent point, and that is that as the and sometimes that organizations may not be considering. That’s the issue of non employees, harassment of of employees and that employers can still be liable for harassment that’s committed by non employees against their employees.

[00:14:27.86] spk_4:
Employers can be liable.

[00:14:29.21] spk_0:
Yes. Yes. Okay. Employers can’t be liable. So it’s very important that the policy the sexual harassment policy that we were talking about, that it addresses specifically that the organization prohibits that they’re prohibition off against sexual harassment includes harassment of their employees, the job applicants and employees by non employees.

[00:15:02.61] spk_4:
So interesting. You just brought in job applicants to yeah, have nuances that the laws here. This is why we have experts. Okay. Job applicants are covered as well as employees. Okay. I’m sorry. God, I want to point that out. Guys.

[00:15:06.34] spk_0:
Yeah, uh, and, uh,

[00:15:07.95] spk_4:
could be volunteer’s board members.

[00:15:19.16] spk_0:
It could. It could be board members. Could be donors. It could be other non employees. That could be it could be a vendor who comes on premises who’s who’s sexually harassing an employee.

[00:15:25.88] spk_4:
All right, so our policy needs to make sure that it’s covering not only harassment by employees,

[00:15:42.00] spk_0:
exactly against other employees, but also that it’s covering harassment by non employees against employees and that the organization has a plan for how they’re gonna address those situations. Okay, depending on what the situation is.

[00:15:44.78] spk_2:
The other thing, this

[00:16:44.88] spk_4:
raises for me now, and I want to make explicit that, uh, for purposes of tony-martignetti non profit radio. Today, we are assuming 100% truth and validity in the stories that I’m gonna be reading. That’s not how the law works. That’s not how an investigation would work, but, um, it’s my show. So for the for today, we’re taking these all at face value as truth. Okay. Um, so that raised that because I’m gonna like nit pick a little bit and I want to see if this makes any difference to you. Um, some of these three stories that the woman shared were pre gift, and one was post gift. The gift I already been made. It was a week after the gift had been made. Uh, does that Does that make any difference to you in a analysis of whether the power still exists, whether they could still be sexual harassment,

[00:16:46.65] spk_0:
it doesn’t. It doesn’t. It doesn’t make a difference. And you raise a good point. Are allegations for over

[00:16:53.68] spk_4:
this year’s all I could do a spot them like a student in love, But I can’t answer any of them. That’s why you’re here.

[00:18:28.56] spk_0:
So s Oh, yes, allegations. That’s allegations. And you’re asking whether there’s difference between what pre gift or posted three ideas is that we recognize that the nature of the relationship has a has a power imbalance, uh, and that the donors in a position of giving or taking away and and the employees although their employment is not, is not ah is not governed by that, so that when we talk about the power dynamic, we’re talking about a supervisor and employees. But the employees may be feeling well. Ah, this is a donor. It’s a big donor for the organization. It puts me in an awkward situation when really, what the employees should be saying, whether it’s a donor or or a vendor coming on premises, because it’s not really about the power and balance. When you’re dealing with non employees is it’s if that employee believes that they’re they’re being sexually harassed, that it’s an unwanted, unwelcome sexual advances, then they should be telling their employer about what the situation is. Okay, this is what happened to them. Your question was, doesn’t matter whether it’s pre gift or post gift. It doesn’t matter. The point is, is that if it’s unwelcome conduct, that’s really what the focus is. If it’s unwelcome conduct, then that’s something they should be reporting to their employer so that them employer can address that with the donor.

[00:18:29.64] spk_4:
Okay, very good. Excellent. Thank you. Setting the second spot, the issues, But I’m not, uh

[00:18:35.35] spk_0:
it was good. That was a very good question about after

[00:18:43.90] spk_4:
passing. And we think that woman for sharing for sharing her stories. Thank you very much. um,

[00:18:44.86] spk_2:
let’s talk about some

[00:19:04.64] spk_4:
training. So we we we have a policy that you leave. We have, ah, Lisa broader approve policy, All right, It’s It’s bona fide has everything. It should, um, training on boarding employees on boarding board members again, all all focused on prevention. We want to stop these things from from happening what we were doing. Our training.

[00:19:43.21] spk_0:
I think training is probably one of the best investments and non profit can make training for its for its employees, for supervisors separate training for supervisors because the supervisors, the actions that the supervisors take can result in the organization being strictly liable. So separate training for supervisors and also and training for employees. And I don’t see this, but I think it’s a very good idea for organizations to be providing us part of their on boarding for board members, providing training on what the organization’s policies are regarding sexual harassment and retaliation.

[00:20:18.85] spk_4:
Okay, you said you’re not seeing that, but it’s a good idea. Yeah, All right. So, Well, there’s a lot of good idea it. So this is important. So, um, organizations, you know you’re getting you’re getting free advice here. Ah, have on boarding your board. Members include training on the not only the organization sexual harassment policy, but prevention recognition of the of the, uh of what’s inappropriate. What’s that? That is part of the policy.

[00:20:20.50] spk_2:
What about from the board member of perspective? How about if, let’s take a

[00:20:45.00] spk_4:
small organization? There isn’t an HR person, um, small organization 45 people. And it’s the CEO who, uh, someone a woman believes is is, uh, engaged in harassing behavior. It doesn’t feel that she can reported anywhere in the office, goes to a board member. What’s a board member? How does a board member react to that?

[00:21:16.47] spk_0:
I think the board should should have. There should be some mechanism. As I said, there really needs to be a policy for a small organization on on how how to address that. Maybe the board decides they’re going to bring in a They’re going to bring in a consultant, someone to investigate someone with experience investigating such claims and then report to the board that person’s findings.

[00:21:19.73] spk_4:
So that would be a part of your policy. I guess how it’s going, how the investigation is going to be conducted.

[00:22:05.03] spk_0:
Absolutely. The sexual harassment policy would indicate that not only here’s our complaint procedure, but once you complain how we’re gonna handle it, there’s gonna be a prompt and thorough investigation which an employer has a legal obligation to dio both a prompt and thorough investigation. There’ll be an investigation, doesn’t need to be done internally and and often times an organization will decide to go external so that they have an independent person who’s investigating the complaint. And then the results of that investigation will be reported to that. Employees the employees always also has the right to go externally. There are government agencies where they can make complaints of sexual harassment. Whether they go, if they’re covered by the federal law, that can go to the e o c. On if they’re if the organization is covered, I should say, if the if the organization is covered by the federal law because there have to be 15 or more employees, they could go to the federal agency that enforces certain Equal

[00:22:55.24] spk_4:
Employment Opportunity Commission, and we’re gonna get into some of that on the state and local also, Um what? How about in the moment? Okay, I I want to cover the employees and also the person to whom it’s reported. What say it is the CEO. So in the employee, in the moment it’s happening in the workplace, something inappropriate has just happened in the lunch room. It just happened right now, and I feel that I’m the female who feels that I’ve been abused, harassed. What do I do right now? It’s happening right now.

[00:23:26.74] spk_0:
Well, really. The best thing for someone to d’oh when they feel that there’s unwelcome conduct is to let the person know who engaged in that conduct, that the conduct is unwelcome immediately, immediately. Sometimes, sometimes the person isn’t aware of what they said. Maybe they are, but sometimes they’re not, that whatever is being said is unwelcome, and the employees should tell that person it’s always that’s the best. First step is to tell the person that the conduct is unwelcome.

[00:23:31.39] spk_4:
Just using those words what you just did.

[00:23:34.89] spk_6:
What you just

[00:23:46.18] spk_4:
said is really inappropriate. And I don’t like it. Yeah, it’s it’s okay, okay. I’m trying to empower people, all right, in that moment. Okay? So call it out immediately.

[00:23:47.86] spk_0:
Called out immediately, or sometimes if somebody’s processing it and is taken aback.

[00:23:53.49] spk_4:
Yeah, I read a lot. That right? I didn’t know how to react. I was frozen. I didn’t Yeah, okay,

[00:24:36.14] spk_0:
then when they are able to be in a emotional state toe, have that conversation to tell the person that it’s unwelcome and it needs to stop immediately so that that’s a first, best step and then to follow whatever the complaint procedure is about how to report that those kinds of things. What is what is the organization’s complaint procedure? Sometimes they don’t feel comfortable. Person doesn’t feel comfortable going to that person directly. I mean, the best way to to have something stop is to tell that person that it’s unwelcome,

[00:24:48.74] spk_4:
right? But that could be hard going back. Let’s say she was frozen in the moment. Five minutes later, the last person she wants to see is that guy. So So Then go to the next step, which is Follow the complaint procedure.

[00:24:52.16] spk_0:
Yes.

[00:24:54.53] spk_4:
Okay. What if there is no complaint procedure?

[00:25:13.68] spk_0:
Thank Goto. Go to another supervisor. In other words, if it’s your supervisor, if it’s an employee supervisor who’s engaging in the conduct, go to another supervisor, find any supervisor to address it and have that supervisor step in to stop to stop the behavior.

[00:25:35.24] spk_4:
Okay. Excellent. Now you’re the supervisor. You’re the You’re the import. Yet you’re the supervisor in the office. Someone has just come to you. It just happened three minutes ago. I didn’t know what to do. I got myself out of the situation. I mean, I can’t remember all the details, but I do remember that he touched me this way. What do you as the supervisor do? What do you say? What do you do in that moment? It just happened.

[00:25:48.74] spk_0:
So the supervisor, it’s going to depend again on this on the particular fax of of the organization. And what? How big they are in terms of what what other resource is they have. So in an organization that has a human resource is person and where the policy and procedure is contact human contact. Human resource is they will go to human resource. That supervisor should go to human resource is immediately immediately. And tell them this has been reported to may.

[00:26:16.92] spk_4:
Okay, um, I want you to hold that thought we’re gonna come back to see because I take a little break, cause I gotta take care of my sponsors. Okay, so

[00:27:38.33] spk_3:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software, Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work. That has the features you need. And the exemplary support that you’ve heard about that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for tony Steak, too. 20 NTC The 2020 non profit Technology conference coming up. Baltimore, Maryland. I hope you’re going. It’s an outstanding conference. There are a lot of very wise speakers there, and as you’ve heard many times, it is not only four technologists by any means. It’s for anybody who uses technology, which is all of us. I’ll be there on the exhibit floor in Booths 3 16 and 3 18 capturing lots of smart interviews for the show Coming months in the show we’re sponsored, thereby Cougar Mountain software so you’ll see us in a booth. Oversized booth double booth together. Um, thank you to Cougar mouth and software for sponsoring us at NTC. Come

[00:27:38.57] spk_2:
by, Come by, Say hello

[00:27:43.41] spk_3:
if you’re there. Come see us in Booth 3 16 and 3 18 Um, we’ll be the ones making a lot of noise doing interviews because I have an external speaker so you can hear it all in the video on this is that tony-martignetti dot com. And that’s tony Steak, too. Let’s go back to sexual harassment in nonprofits.

[00:28:28.86] spk_4:
Lisa Brauner were back with her. She is, uh ah. Partner, attorney and partner at Perlman and Pearlman in New York City. Um, if you want to join the conversation about sexual harassment in nonprofits 8774804120 is the number 8774804120 tweet us with hashtag non profit radio were also on Facebook live on the tony-martignetti non profit radio page. I give you a little homework assignment, but actually, I do remember where we were,

[00:28:30.72] spk_0:
but when I say I’m sorry, let your mom.

[00:28:53.11] spk_4:
Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. A lot of times I don’t remember. So you’re off the hook In case you forgot. I remember. We’re now in a smaller I know you do. We’re now in a small organization um, without a policy, and the employee has just come right now to you as a supervisor. What do you say first? What do you say to her?

[00:29:12.64] spk_0:
I think the supervisor would express concern about what the employees had expressed to the supervisor and let the employees know that they’re going to address it if there’s not. If there’s not an HR person

[00:29:16.17] spk_4:
from their isn’t

[00:30:12.60] spk_0:
they will. They will. They will bring it to the and is still is your hypothetical still that it’s the CEO who had engaged in the conduct or just another supervisor? Okay, so another supervisor. So then there’s no policy. But I think the logical step would be that the supervisor then brings it up the chain of command and the absence of a policy. Yeah, it would make sense to bring the complaint up the chain of command, meaning that the supervisor then goes to the CEO and addresses it with them and the CEO and the absence of having an HR person that would be a conversation, then with the board. And there may be a determination. They’re gonna bring in an employment attorney to investigate the complaint, and there will then be some discussion about the fact that there needs to be a policy that I was going back to the policy because it’s really a baseline is that Polish

[00:30:16.11] spk_2:
should have won. For God’s sake, I have get one. If you don’t have one, get one. For Pete’s sake, just have it. What? What you

[00:30:21.76] spk_4:
know. But we have to cover the contingency because I’m sure it’s not 100% coverage of these things. As you’re well aware, the policies are not 100% of nonprofits,

[00:30:29.05] spk_0:
right? And I would also say, Get insurance, get GPL insurances, employment practices, liability insurance.

[00:30:43.98] spk_4:
Pl thank you for defining that. Otherwise you’d be in jargon jail, e p l employment practices, liability insurance. Talk to your insurance carrier about E p L coverage. Okay,

[00:32:15.32] spk_0:
yeah, so that’s a good idea to. And the training is really it’s essential, and not just about preventing sexual harassment but really preventing retaliation, training for employees on the issue of bystander being a bystander, and obligations to report violations of the policy that they see even if they are not personally affected by what’s going on. So the training on those issues, this really critical sexual harassment prevention, other kinds of preventing other types of unlawful discrimination, harassment in the workplace and preventing retaliation, which is an area that really is it is, ends up getting a lot of organizations in in trouble. A National, a large national nonprofit organization, recently settled a retaliation case for close to $2 million earlier this year. The allegations were, and it was it was a case that was settled. So these allegations thes were just allegations. The allegations were that the organization had fired the HR director and the in house counsel after those individuals reported to the organization that they believe there were complaints of discrimination not by them but by others. And the allegation brought by the E. O. C. Was action brought by the E. O. C. Was that that those two individuals had been terminated in retaliation for having brought forward complaints by

[00:32:20.72] spk_4:
having done their job.

[00:32:31.51] spk_0:
Yeah, settlement was $1.95 million. So the issue of although these were allegations the issue off claims of retaliation are very important for organizations to take seriously and to prevent those those claims from arising by offering by having training for both their board and their employees.

[00:34:20.69] spk_4:
I want to bring in another story I got This is, uh, on the website tony-martignetti dot com Comment. I was working for three years in an embassy of a foreign country in the U. S. A. And during those same three years, I was sexually harassed by different diplomats and employees who were locally hired. I wasn’t the only one suffering from this treatment. Many of my co workers would complain to me about this behavior and there were never any consequences. Even after talking to the perpetrators immediate supervisor or to the administrator of the embassy, we were cornered in offices. Minister would measure our breasts in front of other people. Nothing doing it private makes this behavior justifiable. But there were even witnesses of this behavior, and no one did anything about it. We’d receive sexual propositions, or cat called in the office. And we were all too afraid to speak up because this could have consequences against us women and no consequences against the perpetrators. After three years of silence, I had had enough. So I decided to speak to the administrative Minister in charge of the personnel about my problem. But although she behaved as an ally, I wasn’t comfortable enough to give her names because in the list I would have had to include my boss. I told her I was willing to start a campaign with workshops to train men about appropriate workplace behavior with female co workers. She told me to follow up and write an email with my ideas. Needless to say, she never responded to my email. Um, all right, this raises a few things. Doesn’t sense non non profit so foreign to Foreign Embassy in the U. S. I. C. A resident of resident non citizen. Do they have different standing? If you if you’re not a citizen of the U. S. Does that matter?

[00:34:24.64] spk_0:
Well, I don’t know. I don’t know whether there are particular laws that apply to embassies better located in the United States and the rights of those individuals.

[00:34:35.73] spk_4:
All right, well, let’s put it in a knot

[00:34:36.78] spk_0:
of us. If it was US organization is different. If it’s a different, it’s a different situation.

[00:34:45.60] spk_4:
Okay, let’s put it in a U. S. Non profit. Uh, it’s a resident non citizen. Do they have any lower level of standards?

[00:35:41.34] spk_0:
they have. They’re working for US organization. That’s my hypothetical here, you know, here in the United States, then they would still be protected by our law by their own employees. And our the laws prohibit discrimination against employees, depending on. Like I said, they’re federal. We didn’t really go into it. But their federal, state and local laws and those laws in terms of who’s covered which employers air covered, may depend on the size of the organization. So we there’s a federal law called Title Seven, and that applies to employers with 15 or more employees. So and then states and localities have cities have their own laws prohibiting employment discrimination, and they may have, ah, lower coverage. So, for instance, in New York, both state and New York City human rights laws require generally that you have. You have four or more employees in order for that organization to be covered by the loss.

[00:36:00.38] spk_4:
Okay, Another thing I see here is ah, retaliation, potential retaliation. But we talked about that illegal.

[00:36:29.80] spk_0:
Oh, retaliation. This is retaliation to talk about retaliation. What it is is if if if somebody, if an employer takes some action against someone for engaging in legally protected activity. And what that means is complaining of discrimination or participating, even as a witness in a complaint of discrimination. Opposing discrimination, those kinds of things air protected by the law, those kinds of complaints and participation investigation. So if some action is taken against an individual because they engaged in legally protected activity that’s considered retaliation

[00:36:43.55] spk_4:
would raise a claim of retaliation.

[00:36:52.59] spk_0:
Yeah, putting it quite simply, I mean, there’s a little bit of a different standard, but that’s if if something happens to them because they did that, then that’s generally considered unlawful retaliation.

[00:36:57.08] spk_4:
That’s a that’s a good level for for us. Okay, I don’t wanna get into Ah ah. See Ellie course legal legal education course.

[00:37:04.62] spk_2:
OK, the other thing I

[00:37:18.23] spk_4:
see here is what if the organization isn’t taking action? Suppose there is a policy and they’re not following the policy as the employees. As the aggrieved employees, I don’t see anything happening now. You said I have the EOE see the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. I could go there

[00:37:27.29] spk_0:
if if the organization’s covered you talked about, this may not be covered.

[00:37:40.75] spk_4:
It may not be, um, where just help me out where I’ve been aggrieved and I don’t see my organization doing anything that are following the policy. Wegner following their own policy, and it’s a bigger organization over 15 employees. What do I do?

[00:38:03.51] spk_0:
So employees have the right to file a claim of discrimination either with the federal agency. If the organization is covered, has 15 or more employees or with their state or local But state or city agency government agency that enforces the laws of that state or say we’re varies from state to state or not Every city may have

[00:38:31.97] spk_4:
right. The smaller cities are not gonna have a human rights commission. Um, what about hiring your own attorney? Is there any value in that as the employees it’s been, It’s been three or four weeks. I haven’t heard anything back. I don’t see anything happening. Nobody’s talked to me value in the hiring an attorney to help you enforce your rights,

[00:38:49.97] spk_0:
and employees could. I mean, as an attorney for organizations, I think it’s best for employees to to try to use the the processes that are in place and if they’re not able to, if if if they’re not able to avail themselves of those avenues

[00:38:57.16] spk_4:
where they availed themselves, but they’re

[00:39:13.22] spk_0:
not getting back. You’re not getting a response. They may not be satisfaction, but they’re not getting response to the allegations. There’s not. There’s not an investigation being done, and it’s not proceeding in the manner in which the policy has said then they certainly are within their rights to tiu contact an attorney.

[00:39:22.60] spk_4:
Okay, Okay, um, you got take another break again, hanging with this

[00:39:42.97] spk_3:
time for our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s knees. When there’s news that you need to comment on so that you stay relevant in your work, including a former journalist at the Chronicle of Philanthropy, they understand our community there at turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for attorney Lisa Bronner and sexual harassment in nonprofits.

[00:39:58.88] spk_4:
We are continuing our conversation. Ah, with Lisa Brauner in

[00:40:04.61] spk_2:
studio and I’d like to turn

[00:40:20.25] spk_4:
to another another avenue. This is, uh, this is from Vanessa Chase. Vanessa Chase election and her sight is the story telling non profit dot com and she says at a conference. One of the facilitators used his session to talk about how, when people make mistakes, they should be welcomed back into the community. His

[00:40:38.47] spk_2:
reason for choosing this topic was self serving. He disclosed that he sexually harassed women at this same conference the year before. You believe that you believe somebody and was essentially forcing everyone to welcome him back.

[00:41:14.41] spk_4:
Unfortunately, the conference organizers did not know one that this had happened, and to that he was going to use this moment to essentially give himself a second chance without any consultation with the conference organizers or the broader community. As an attendee, I immediately felt unsafe. My whole body tensed up and was like that for the remaining two days of the conference. I resented that I was in voluntarily put in this environment and that there was no way for me to easily leave because we were at a retreat center. Then, of course, there were the women who were harmed by this facilitator who were in the audience and some who were not in the audience, and

[00:41:17.21] spk_2:
they had no idea that this

[00:41:44.51] spk_4:
was going to be publicly aired. This conference had no clear, transparent policies in place for people to report sexual harassment. This meant that nonprofits who may have clear internal policies for this unintentionally put staff in unsafe environments where the policies were not consistent with the organizations Lisa brought her. This is interesting. One conferences. You send your employees to a conference. Let’s say you have the employer. You pay all the expenses. What’s the situation here?

[00:41:45.72] spk_0:
It’s very interesting, very interesting issue that’s being raised. And I ended the I think we talked about that. There is There was one conference or one organization that created a way about

[00:42:04.51] spk_4:
that. Yeah, we’re gonna get to that.

[00:42:05.87] spk_0:
Okay, so it’s It’s a very interesting issue, and

[00:42:27.70] spk_4:
their employer liability is that. Is that possible? Employer liability. Again, let’s take my hypothetical. We approve the conference. We’re paying for the expenses for travel and meals and lodging while you’re there. It definitely is related to Europe. Your employment. Obviously those would have paid for it. Is there potential employer

[00:42:28.95] spk_0:
liability? Courts have ruled differently on the issue of when and employers liable outside the workplace, certainly where there can be things outside the workplace and organizations sponsored event and something like that

[00:42:41.68] spk_4:
off outing

[00:42:42.36] spk_0:
where Gala, Where there could be open

[00:42:44.34] spk_4:
house in the office. Well, I’ll be in the office, but we’re you’re thinking off site

[00:43:06.45] spk_0:
outside the four walls of the office. And I think in a in a situation like that, where an employee feels that they’re in an unsafe situation, they have to tell there employer about that because that’s not something that the employer could have anticipated.

[00:43:09.47] spk_4:
Agreed? This is that it was a bizarre one.

[00:43:21.90] spk_0:
Yeah, so? So it’s it’s really kind of outside outside the scope of something that an employer may have envisioned as the courts have gone differently about, you know, how far that how far the workplace extends.

[00:43:30.49] spk_4:
Okay, um, what if you are on a conference organizing committee?

[00:43:47.88] spk_0:
And I’d also say one of things that she was alleging not that she was sexually harassed, but simply that she felt uncomfortable by by being in the presence of someone who had who had a certain that he that he sexually harassed others

[00:43:59.46] spk_4:
right at the conference in the year before, right? Okay, you know, You know what? I’m not even gonna I’m not going to get into the issue. Could she allege? Well, she could certainly allege Could should be successful in a claim of sexual harassment. She the woman who wrote the blood post Vanessa Chase election.

[00:44:08.83] spk_0:
She’s not asserting anything. I know

[00:44:30.73] spk_4:
she’s here. Yeah, it’s interesting. Maybe legal question for me, but let’s not get into it. It’s gonna get too detailed. Let’s take this. What If you’re a volunteer or you’re a conference organizer? You’re in a F P association of fundraising professionals. You put on him conference every year. Do you have an obligation to have a policy around this around? Harassment discrimination for your attendees?

[00:44:47.74] spk_0:
Well, it’s not an employer. It’s on an employer obligation is more of a question of is the environment that you want to create for your attendees, one in which everyone is acknowledging that they’re gonna abide by certain rules when they attend that conference?

[00:44:52.30] spk_4:
Well, I think that yeah, they’re certainly unwritten rules,

[00:45:10.16] spk_0:
but what are they going tohave? Are they going to have written rules? Do they wanna have everyone agree that when you when you come to our conference, you’re going thio agree to certain behavior in certain conduct, And if you don’t then we reserve our right to to not have you attend our conferences anymore. But it’s a different question than an employer. Sure. Okay, All

[00:45:19.39] spk_2:
right, well, I’m testing the bounds of the law. Okay, so it suddenly it’s at least

[00:45:26.16] spk_4:
an issue for conference organizers.

[00:45:27.95] spk_0:
It’s an interesting issue. It’s an interesting issue that blogger races. Yeah,

[00:45:32.30] spk_4:
absolutely on. And if you’re in, this is from again, this is from Vanessa Chase Election, she suggests. If you’re a conference attendee, exercise your agency to attend conferences that are doing their best to create safe environments for women. Ask conference organizers to share their policies publicly and use part of the opening session to make sure all attendees know about the policies. Seems reasonable.

[00:46:02.26] spk_0:
I think I think her hers talking about employers making enquiries particular

[00:46:04.48] spk_4:
is making me incredibly,

[00:46:28.23] spk_0:
particularly where particularly where let’s say, an employee had raised if an employee raised an issue and said I felt uncomfortable because there was this person who admittedly sexually harassed attendees at the conference. It would be interesting for an employer to pursue whether or not there there, that conference organizer has a code of conduct the conference organizer. It might not have crossed their mind, even that there, that there that there should be one. But it’s an interesting issue there now,

[00:47:16.87] spk_4:
all unnoticed because it’s on non profit radio. So every every non profit conference organizer is now on notice. You can play this for them, and any reasonable conference organizer would be listening to non profit radio. So play this. They are unnoticed on dhe. That’s going to, uh, you know, not that we’re trying to help you. I mean, I would like to help you after the fact. I’d like to prevent it to begin with, but conference organizers, ifyou’re non profit, uh, you’re on notice. Case case closed. Okay, Read. Stockman tweeted. Hey asked where would folks find a sample policy for ideas and related to this? Exactly. Read is the non profit ah technology network and 10 which I’m a member of a B sample. Ward is the CEO, and she’s our monthly social media

[00:47:21.38] spk_2:
contributor and they do have

[00:47:32.55] spk_4:
a code of conduct on it. Includes the non profit technology conference as well as I think. I think this would pass Lisa broader muster, but I’m not gonna put you on the spot to say for sure. But where Where is it? Apply a lend 10 spaces again in 10. The non profit technology network, including, but not limited to and tens online

[00:47:39.66] spk_2:
community, platform, online community, social media, right? Yes, webinars and

[00:47:43.90] spk_4:
trainings, they explicitly say Social media, non profit technology conference, non profit tech, ground up snot and 10 labs, et cetera. What What are they talking about? Discrimination Is the unjust er prejudicial treatment of others related to gender, gender, identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, euro, typical ality or atypical ality, physical appearance, body size, age, race or religion that sound pretty comprehensive to you.

[00:48:13.55] spk_0:
It includes categories that, ah are not legally protected in New York, but it may vary from state to

[00:48:20.88] spk_4:
state. They’re being very going beyond that. This is, of course, that they’re entitled. Have anything they want in their policy, right, and

[00:48:25.83] spk_0:
they can put go beyond what’s required. They can put with what they would like in their policy,

[00:49:03.25] spk_4:
And then it goes on t mention behaviors that harassment includes, which I don’t have time to take off, but so you can find an example, um, and then also includes how to report. Uh, there’s an email talk to an intent community team member and how you identify them by their lanyard. Or you could make an anonymous report. They have a WUFU site platform that you could use for anonymous reporting. So it does cover that. And the answer is you can look att en 10 you go to, uh, and 10 dot or ge slash ntc slash at a glance with hyphens between the words slash code of conduct with hyphens in between the words Thank you and 10 for that contribution. And Lisa brought in. We have just a minute. Why don’t you leave us with the last bit of advice, Please?

[00:49:38.86] spk_0:
I think that if you’re gonna have ah takeaway from today is the importance of having policies that prohibit sexual harassment that prohibit retaliation, prohibit unlawful retaliation and that you do trainings for your supervisors and your employees on preventing discrimination, preventing unlawful discrimination, harassment and retaliation in the workplace

[00:49:45.13] spk_4:
and for individuals. Call it out because it’s not going to stop.

[00:49:50.57] spk_0:
And for individuals, it’s important to to call it out and address it. If the conduct is unwelcome, you let the person no employees should let the person know who is engaging in that conduct, that the conduct is unwelcome.

[00:50:03.83] spk_4:
We have to leave it there. OK? Lisa Broner, attorney and partner at Perlman and Pearlman in New York City. There, Perlman and Perlman dot or GE and also at Tax Exempt Lawyer.

[00:50:12.11] spk_3:
Next week, Jamie burst with your organization’s health. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO

[00:51:26.15] spk_2:
creative producers Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for not profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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[00:00:24.99] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week, read Stockman

[00:00:26.02] spk_0:
in Fairfax Station, Virginia. He shared the show by tweeting. Tony-martignetti has an awesome radio show. Give a listen. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. Reed. Thank you so much,

[00:00:39.94] spk_3:
folks. You share, I shout, Reid says in

[00:00:44.74] spk_0:
his profile. Job leads welcome. So he does philanthropy, tech fundraising, research and curation. If we can help read out, please do what you know of a job that would be right

[00:00:53.28] spk_3:
for him. He’s at Reed. Stockman read

[00:01:37.74] spk_0:
Congratulations on being this week’s listener of the week. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasized, a phobia if you missed our sixth show in the Innovators. Siri’s board members as relationship builders, there’s more to board fundraising than parlor evenings and give get. Your members can engage your networks and build relationships around giving. Peter Heller shows you how he’s the latest in our innovators. Siri’s he’s principal of Heller Fundraising Group and Maria’s Free Resource is their candid dot org’s for foundation Research and FTC dot gov for campaign contributions. Maria Semple unlocks their treasures. She’s our Prospect research contributor and the Prospect

[00:01:48.79] spk_3:
Finder. Tony Steak, too. Planned giving relationship stories were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding

[00:01:51.08] spk_0:
you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:01:54.44] spk_3:
But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund

[00:01:56.83] spk_0:
is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:02:14.29] spk_3:
It’s a pleasure to

[00:02:33.47] spk_0:
welcome to the studio. Peter Heller. He’s Principle of Heller Fundraising Group. The staff of six consults with nonprofits for capital campaigns, feasibility studies and major gift programs. Before founding the company, he was a fundraiser at Columbia University and four universities before that. The company is at Heller fundraising group dot com, where they have free tools for fund raising.

[00:02:40.03] spk_3:
Welcome. Peter Heller.

[00:02:41.54] spk_4:
Hi, tony. It’s great to be here.

[00:02:42.89] spk_0:
Yes. I’m glad you made it

[00:02:44.71] spk_3:
back. You were You were just in Costa Rica.

[00:02:47.34] spk_0:
I was just got back yesterday. Is that right?

[00:02:49.18] spk_4:
I did

[00:02:49.67] spk_0:
tonight and last night

[00:02:50.71] spk_4:
I got lead. I got back last night.

[00:02:53.14] spk_0:
House. Costa Rica for a vacation.

[00:02:54.71] spk_4:
It’s amazing. I want to go back.

[00:02:56.85] spk_0:
Why? Why is it so amazing?

[00:03:09.67] spk_4:
Beautiful jungle flowers and trees. All my house plants actually air their e. Got to visit all of my house plants. And And there’s a beautiful Yeah, they’re they’re cousins.

[00:03:11.58] spk_0:
And then, of course, to beaches. Yeah, because

[00:03:13.96] spk_4:
I only got to the Caribbean Coast, but it’s it’s wonderful. Uh, yeah. Beautiful place to be. Great people.

[00:03:20.05] spk_0:
Glad you made it back in time. I came just for you. Thanks for doing this on. Not quite, but I did talk you into doing your first day back. Thank you. Um,

[00:03:28.81] spk_3:
okay. Board from board

[00:03:34.19] spk_0:
Fundraising Difficult, difficult, Difficult for board members to be successful at. What’s the What’s the trouble?

[00:03:39.14] spk_4:
Very true. So, you know, I was thinking about the title of our of our talk, which is board members as relationship builders. That was mine. Yeah, and yet very good night. Are

[00:03:49.61] spk_0:
you Are you okay with that consent?

[00:03:52.45] spk_4:
And the

[00:03:53.00] spk_3:
reason I

[00:04:39.64] spk_4:
was thinking about it is that relationship builders For what? Now I’m a fundraiser, a fundraiser, consultant, and but if you take a step back, it’s really we want board members to think of themselves as relationship builders, for the organization with people in the community and that those relationships, if you’re a fundraiser, you really want those relationships to net money. That’s true. Let’s not pretend, right? Yeah, let’s not pretend that that’s not true. And the the reason is called Relationship Building is you want strong relationships that are going to extend beyond money and be way more than just transactional so that you and the other people that you’re building relationships with as board members help your organization make your community stronger, Not just the organization, but that’s the key point that I’m going to get to but really make your organization.

[00:04:51.60] spk_0:
This is all that does. That’s aspiration, right? Absolutely. What? Where are we falling short? Well, in working with our board members as fundraiser.

[00:05:03.79] spk_4:
So first, let’s say there are organizations that are doing a great job engaging their board members as advocates for their organization and where, believe it or not, they’re board members air actually enjoying their board service because a lot of times when I go in the board rooms, you get this feeling that there’s just this this heavy weight on everybody’s shoulders like, Oh, my God. Why did I sign up for this volunteer? You know what I mean? Yeah, It’s like you’ve worked with some of the words like that. Like, why did I sign up for this? You

[00:05:26.66] spk_0:
don’t get a real sense of excitement about

[00:05:47.92] spk_4:
Yeah, Yeah, how You know, how frequently can I check my phone in the meeting without, like, you know, being seen? Some people don’t even care that they’re seen so But the whole idea that I’m going for here is that u um, you want to turn that relationship around with the board members so that they’re really excited about their board service and they’re advocating on your behalf and, you know, you said, What’s the current state? It’s usually not that. So when we go into an organization, were usually called in to help with a capital campaign or to build a major gift program. Sometimes we do one off board training events. But regardless of the scenario, what we find is that we train board members to get excited about what’s going on in that organization and in the community, and it’s really it’s like a mindset difference. It’s not. It’s like a switch you just got to turn on.

[00:06:32.28] spk_0:
So you want them to be more grounded in the in the mission and and the vision exact, More conscious off,

[00:06:34.29] spk_4:
right? Well, there’s really, like, there’s a two part thing Ah, that we tend to tend to talk about. And it may sound kind of like highfalutin or just kind of.

[00:06:44.75] spk_0:
All right, try us. Okay,

[00:07:52.44] spk_4:
um, you know, just philosophical. Traditional, aspirational. But so here. Here’s what it is. Isn’t it negatively inspirational? Yeah. So, really, what happens is that non profit staff leaders and non profit board members, often just by the fact that they have to get some really hard work done day after day, week after week in their community, they don’t step back and see the bigger picture. And what we’re talking about here is simply the bigger picture. And what that is is helping board members to see two things. One what? What is a really positive future for the organization that they’re serving on the board of Tau actually spend time in board meetings talking about that I can give you a few tips on howto actually make that happen in a board meeting a little later. But to get real clarity on what is an even more powerful future for organization look like. And the step after that, which is like the uber powerful thing is what is an even more powerful future for our community Look like.

[00:08:08.07] spk_0:
And you want the board energized and activated, conscious of all this, and then they convey this to the folks that they’re gonna be talking to. Exactly. That’s the That’s the basis of the relation that becomes the basis of the relationship, not a transactional. We need $50,000 this year.

[00:08:21.59] spk_4:
Exactly. So And let me emphasize that point again. In a

[00:08:32.40] spk_0:
way. Let me take a break. All right, on, Ben, I want you to reemphasize. Okay, let me take this break for wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filled

[00:08:35.79] spk_3:
out on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get

[00:08:54.04] spk_0:
the advice of an experienced partner. You Each tomb just on, uh so recently and affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Um, let’s go. Let’s go back to board members as relationship builders because I was gonna do the live listener love, But I have something on the tip of your tongue. It’s a rite of water on the Ted

[00:09:05.79] spk_3:
Hold off on the live load. I’d like to do live love.

[00:09:08.75] spk_0:
Now I’m doing something else instead of that. All right. I want you. I want to get this out. We’ll do the love. Don’t

[00:10:58.38] spk_4:
worry. Okay? Gotta gotta spread the love shared especially. Okay, So here’s what I’d like to ask you to picture is when we work with nonprofits and they we ask them to show us and tell us how they’re typically communicating about their organization to their community. However, they define that community, including their donors. We find that usually they’re very me, me, me, central centric. And what we encourage them to do is to take themselves out of the equation and talk about their community and the impact that their organization is gonna have on on their community for a better future. So, for instance, um, if we’re working with a, um, thinking of in Westchester, we’re working with ah, child care and Early Education Center, and we’re doing Ah, almost $20 million capital campaign if they go to all their donors and they say, Hey, we need a new building. Can you give us some money? They’re going to get some money. But if they go to their donors and say, You know, the future of our community is gonna be so much stronger if we’re able to have a building that houses Maur young Children and allows more working families to put their kids in a high quality education, Early childhood school and goto work. They’re talking about the future of a community being stronger rather than me. Me, mia Central. So So basically, just we encourage board members and non profit leaders to get into that mind set and then go talk to current donors as well as potential donors from that point of view.

[00:10:59.64] spk_0:
Got okay. Now we need to drill down toe how to. So how are we going to reorient our board’s thinking to get this from aspiration toe action?

[00:11:34.61] spk_4:
Right. So there’s a number of things. The first is that, uh, you know, we do trainings for boards and generally when we’re not there and somebody’s just like you’re you’re asking Hey, how are we gonna do this? We advise that every board meeting should have something on the agenda A that has to do with fundraising and not make it like the last item when everybody’s like, Oh my God, I’m ready to go If philanthropy

[00:11:36.27] spk_0:
What about fundraising? On the I know there’s two things. First of all, what are they? Fundraising and

[00:11:41.59] spk_4:
and exercises that engage the board members and conversations around this topic of a stronger future for our community.

[00:11:48.76] spk_0:
What do you want to see around fundraising in Sword Agenda?

[00:11:57.01] spk_4:
I first of all, I want it not to be like the what it’s like, You know, in grade school, when you’re the the bad kid that gets sat in the corner like philanthropy is usually sat in the corner.

[00:12:07.04] spk_0:
OK, right, that’s what it’s not. What is it? What did this conversation look like? So for these topics, starters going

[00:13:19.34] spk_4:
right, So you wanna have conversations? First of all, let’s talk about the fundraising before we talking way our community. So you want every board member toe, understand how fundraising works in the organization? Not for it to be some mysterious thing that the development director comes to the meeting and gives ah quick report or even the chair of the development committee gives the report. And and then everybody is kind of like, OK, I sort of know what you’re talking about, but it really people need to understand how much it costs to raise the money, What, all the activities there that are happening, what the various sources of revenue are, what they can do to get involved and when they understand things, just like you and I, we’re like, if we’re, you know, there’s something that we’re not sure about. Like I typically look things up on Google the time, right? Wikipedia, Mike. Oh, I don’t know What. So you need to understand, because what happens is that I’m sure you’ve seen this because you’ve been in board meetings is that when there’s a vacuum of knowledge, board members just like all of us, other normal human beings fill that vacuum up with misconceptions. Yeah,

[00:13:25.92] spk_0:
all right. And

[00:13:26.39] spk_3:
you want to do this at every meeting? I’m trying to drill

[00:13:43.91] spk_4:
todo eso, so I want I want every meat. Every meeting has to have an agenda item on there. That’s something like building our culture of philanthropy. And then there’s specifics There’s there’s, you know, reports on not just Hey, we raised

[00:13:46.11] spk_3:
You always start with what? It’s not. Tell me what it is. Okay. Damn it. Damn it. I want to know. What is

[00:14:49.39] spk_4:
it? Uh, now you got me on the spot. Yeah. So that’s good. Um, you want to have in that meeting a discussion of the specifics of how fundraising works? Okay, give some examples. Right. All right. So first, I’ll give you a really good example. We just finished a campaign in Falls Church, Virginia. It’s amazing. Ah, Director of development there. Actually, she was really smart. When she took her job. She insisted that she be called the director of philanthropy. I thought that was was really smart, right? And so their campaigns done. And now they’re looking at How do we keep this culture of philanthropy going? Well, they need to keep talking about it. And people don’t even understand what she does. Has her job. So she, you know, she’s faced with having to explain to her board and her senior staff. Yeah, I got through all this campaign. I, like struggled. I raised $60 million but here all the things that I do week by week, and that’s something that you have to keep talking about. Okay, so that’s a great agenda item,

[00:14:54.30] spk_0:
okay? And the other agenda item what each month is.

[00:15:54.72] spk_4:
So we’re talking about building how to increase board members, understanding of their impact on community on the community that they’re okay. And for me, that’s, um Hey, does it have to be in every board meeting? I don’t know, But you need to have a period of time where you go through exercises and I like to use very simple, like index card exercises were simply literally hand everybody an index card. And you ask them a question. So, for instance, you could have two questions. What’s, uh what would an even stronger future for our organization look like? And what would any even stronger future for our community look like? Because those are two different things. Sure, and and sometimes it’s really interesting to see that that they match up when people So you give everybody in the next card, you say, you know, right? Right down these questions, Then you can do it a bunch of ways, of course, But I like to say you have 20 board members before people share it with the whole group. You have them turn to each other. So you have 10 groups of to

[00:16:04.69] spk_0:
stop hitting the mike stand. Sorry.

[00:16:20.33] spk_4:
Non. No. Well, maybe, Uh okay. So I’m so I’m so, like, emphatic with my arms. I am too. So you got 10 groups of two and you have them share with each other. Okay. Hey, what’d you write? What would you write? Go and do that for, like, two or three minutes. And then one person from each group shares their experiences with the whole

[00:16:40.14] spk_0:
group. Now, the purpose of this again sounds to me like we’re trying to ground board members remind. That’s just remind board members of the importance role that our organization plays in this community.

[00:16:43.18] spk_4:
Right? And the

[00:16:43.67] spk_0:
air. We so important to it.

[00:16:45.32] spk_4:
Yeah. And that there’s a real power in making the organization even stronger to build an even stronger community.

[00:16:59.39] spk_0:
Now we do these, so we’re constantly engaging, reminding board members. How does this convey to board member fundraising went there. Now, there now going out to their network, etcetera. Right. What’s the That’s the action step we want next

[00:17:39.94] spk_4:
right, so that’s excellent question. So here’s what we do is that hopefully, board members through those index card activities and those conversations, they’re beginning to see that there’s a bit of a shift of focus on on how they’re relating to the organization. And then what we do is we train them. Two, take a list of prospective donors. So say, Just let’s say, for instance, you’ve got this board of 20 people that we just talked about. They paired up and say four of them have agreed to go and do some really major fundraising.

[00:17:44.59] spk_0:
Let’s make it a board of six or eight. Okay, More, more. I think that’s more appropriate for our listeners. Okay, it stick with six.

[00:17:50.06] spk_3:
I mean, there are some

[00:17:52.49] spk_0:
20 born. Okay, okay, let’s keep it.

[00:18:24.54] spk_4:
You got eight people on eight people on your board. They’ve gone through this thing exercise, and let’s say three of them have agreed that yet, you know, I’m really excited about trying to do fundraising for the organization. And let’s just assume that for some reason the organization is new to this. They haven’t been doing it before, and so those three people are going to need to contact people in the community and ask them for money. It’s pretty obvious, right? Okay. So, uh, often the way it happens, not a good practice, I think is, you know, they’ll call them up, they’ll send them an e mail. Whatever we’re looking at, identifying the people who can contribute the most money in the community and having these board members actually go and sit down and talk with

[00:18:40.13] spk_0:
them. Okay? You prefer face to face. Some people won’t take a face to face me, right? At least initially.

[00:18:45.04] spk_4:
So So there’s a lot of strategies that we use with people. Regardless, whether we’re helping with a major gift program or a capital campaign on breaking through that, you know that silence on the other end of the phone or on the other end of the email,

[00:18:57.98] spk_0:
right? That’s something that is valuable to have.

[00:20:22.94] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s another. Okay, so let’s assume that the board member is able to sit down with somebody in the community and talk about, you know, have a conversation that hopefully is gonna lead to fundraising. Yeah, And so that same shift of perspective that we talked about in the board meeting is what we want to see happening in the meeting with a prospective donor. Okay, in that the right from the moment that they set up the meeting either on the phone or through an email. They’re talking about the future off the community, not hey, I’ve been assigned to raise money in our community for organization. Can I sit down with you and ask for some money? That’s a pretty weak opening. Yeah, so poor, It’s pork. So we But we shift that perspective in terms of, you know, the future of our community is so important to me that I’m hoping you would spend a few minutes talking with me about that so that I could learn your views and it It’s not so much, actually A, by the way, but we try to make the next part of its sort of, by the way. And you know, my organization is now in a in a fundraising campaign. If you decided to at some point contribute, that’d be great. But first I really want to talk about the future of our community and hear your views. That’s it may sound simple, but it’s a radical change of perspective on the way that fundraising is usually done, particularly by board members who who have this image. I don’t know where it came from, but, like the fundraising equates to arm twisting.

[00:20:41.15] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, all right. Very onerous. I gotta tap all my friends.

[00:21:12.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it’s gonna be awkward. I don’t want to do it. So again, it’s not for everybody. There’s different jobs for other board members, but those who are willing we can set them up. And this concept can set them up so that they can have, first of all, better success at the at the end of it where they’re gonna get more money. But also that And tony, this is the really exciting part is that they’re actually gonna enjoy these conversations. Like, can you

[00:21:13.22] spk_3:
imagine that?

[00:21:16.60] spk_4:
Board members enjoying conversation.

[00:21:17.20] spk_0:
I’m sure it happened. I’ve been in some that were not so good, but

[00:21:20.84] spk_3:
I’ve I’ve been somewhere

[00:21:22.07] spk_0:
the board, the board members, pretty motivated and and and aware of what the organization is doing, you know? Yeah.

[00:21:29.25] spk_3:
So I’ve seen

[00:21:56.64] spk_0:
both. Yeah, but it certainly needs improvement, because I don’t think you’re I don’t think your average board is particularly motivated about fundraising. Your average board member is really into what they consider to be like you said, arm twisting. Okay, so we drilled down. All right. Thank you. All right, so now we got a couple extra minutes, all right? I want to get to Sometimes I know you. It’s hard to get to the core with you. OK, But we did good notes. So, um Okay, now let’s embellish a little bit. We got electric. We got some time. A few minutes. So what else? What else do you want to fill in around this process?

[00:22:22.81] spk_4:
Well, you know, you you cautioned me about what? It’s not. But you did also ask me before we started for some examples of what didn’t work. Well, so

[00:22:23.63] spk_3:
okay, now, well, that’s different. Yeah. Yeah. So So let me

[00:25:01.32] spk_4:
give you there’s two examples that but they also have good outcomes. So let me let me give you a couple of real concise and you’re okay, So just the 1st 1 is a board that I worked with. There were a lot of people who were in the real estate business, and on this board there were probably three real estate guys and there were other people, too. And I went through this training with them, and their insistence was, you know, like everybody we know is transactional, they’re just they’re not gonna be interested in this. What’s better for the community and growing our community, and they’re not gonna wanna you know, we had identified some people who would join our board, and they’re not gonna want to do this. So two things happen. One is, I explained to them that you three guys are actually here. Something happened that you decided that this organization was important. So you would join the board so that it’s not impossible that other people might get excited beyond writing a transactional check to make you go away. And the second thing that happened was more kind of Ah, I don’t know if it was more for me or for them, but I was like, You know what? I’m not gonna push you. You want it? You believe that your people are transactional. I’m gonna let you just go and get a transactional gift. Let’s see if you get that first and then let’s build upon that. So it’s like meeting the board members where They’re at not insisting that it has to be another way. Thea. Other thing is I actually had success with that. Yeah, they did well, and they built their board and it actually turned around. Okay, I brought this is a two sentence email that a board member for an organization are go ahead and two sentences. Not Yeah, it’s not so bad. Right? So not a page. No. And this is an E mail. I use this in my training’s now because this was sent by a board member. What gets me is it was after they went through our, like, three hour long training on how to do this. And they did this thing that I’m gonna read you anyway. Okay, So this was trying to get a meeting for a, uh, for campaign to discuss a gift, you know, to discuss a gift for a campaign. So it’s like, Hi, Gail, I hope you’re continuing to enjoy the summer. I would love to meet with you at your convenience to discuss our capital campaign. Can you drop us a note as to sometimes That would work for your schedule. Best Rhonda And then So she sent that email. Then I got that. I’m not gonna read you the reply, but it’s basically says we’re gonna make a $5000 contribution. No need to meet. But she’s like, Well, what should I do now? You know, I mean, it was laughable because it was like, Well, you know, you should have come to a sooner. Why don’t you pay attention in the training and have us help you write an email that was talked about the community first. So all of you listening there today, don’t do this. Focus on your community. Figure out what’s exciting about the future of

[00:25:28.25] spk_0:
yours. That $5000 gift that’s called the peremptory gift. Exactly. This is 5000. I’m not really interested in what you’re asking is this is what I’m giving you. No need

[00:25:28.66] spk_4:
to meet, right, because I mean, $5000 from from some people is an amazing stretch gift, right? And for certain organizations that that’s a nice

[00:25:37.26] spk_0:
I’m guessing in this case, this was this

[00:25:39.31] spk_4:
was from somebody who could have given to be asking significant multiples of that in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[00:25:56.21] spk_0:
Right? Peremptory. Okay, So, uh, good point. Why Didn’t you ask us? Seek our advice sooner about how to write? Ah, um, a broader based and more engaging

[00:25:59.40] spk_4:
email, right? So there’s there’s

[00:26:01.61] spk_3:
one other

[00:26:20.01] spk_4:
point that I think is worth making, which is that when organizations are in a capital campaign, which is usually a multimillion dollar project for physical plant door or programs or endowment, or sometimes a combination of all those it’s a time that a lot of this stuff comes up for board members because it’s a time when the organization is forced to train people to do things. However, it’s not necessary that you have to be in a capital campaign for these best practices to come up in terms of relationship building for

[00:27:06.14] spk_0:
border just happens to be when they that’s it’s a common time. Engage a consultant around the campaign around the feasibility study before that, Yeah, right. But you’re the point you made earlier. If you want to continue this culture of philanthropy, way beyond you’re successful campaign absolutely to be ingrained routinely absolute, and that will help set you up for the next campaign. Whether it’s two years later or five years later, or 10 years later, you’ll have this culture and you’ll have these relationships long standing, helping you get into the next next campaign,

[00:27:24.32] spk_4:
right? And the challenge we find often is that when organizations start campaigns, they haven’t been doing this beforehand so that the work to get to the gold they need for a building project or for whatever is it’s harder because

[00:27:30.71] spk_0:
I asked you, stop doing that. It’s harder but monitored. I gave you a free pass to sit. I’ll sit on my hands way got about two minutes

[00:27:33.69] spk_4:
left. So if they can, if you’re not in a campaign and you can build up your culture of philanthropy and your ability to engage your board with community members, then when you need to have a campaign, everybody including your board, your leadership and your community is not gonna be so foreign to this concept of talking.

[00:27:56.67] spk_3:
And that is not rushed for pizza. You know, don’t wait for the campaign

[00:28:00.06] spk_0:
because I’m being more effusive about it. Don’t wait for a campaign to start building relationships through your

[00:28:05.37] spk_3:
board members. Absolute. Do it. I mean, you want you want supporters and you want, uh, engaged community members throughout the life

[00:28:13.28] spk_0:
span of your non profit, not only when you’re in the in the in the 12 months or 36 month

[00:28:18.88] spk_3:
campaign you wanted at all

[00:28:20.43] spk_4:
times. Absolute. Don’t wait. Don’t wait. That should be our slogan. We’ll make T shirts.

[00:28:45.74] spk_0:
All right, We got to leave it there. Peter, how are you? Thank you so much. My pleasure. T shirt, T Shirt Factory. That’s Peter Heller principle of Heller Fundraising Group. You’ll find the company at Heller fundraising group dot com, no aptly named Helen Fundraising fundraising group dot com And they have free tools for fund raising their All right, Thank you again. You’re welcome. Thank you. I need to

[00:28:46.00] spk_3:
take a break. Cougar Mountain Software.

[00:28:48.38] spk_0:
Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You’ve heard the testimonials about that that I’ve read.

[00:29:11.94] spk_3:
They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving relationship stories about relationships runs through it because that’s what it that’s what this is all based on its relationships not only fundraising, but all the

[00:29:23.32] spk_0:
support for your organization in whatever form it comes, not just money. It’s

[00:29:26.81] spk_3:
all around relationships.

[00:29:45.74] spk_0:
So what am I talking about in this week’s video planned giving relationships that stand out for me? There are scores of them. Um, the ones I tell on the video are, Ah, Eleanor, Evelyn, Barbara and Jim. Um, these

[00:29:46.07] spk_3:
were stories that are touching.

[00:29:57.64] spk_0:
Um, they’re they’re not always joyful, although overall planned giving relationships to me are enormously joyful. If there’s something that’s the really that one thing that I would say I miss about being an employee versus a consultant because you don’t have the depth of relationship.

[00:30:06.45] spk_3:
But there are still some, even as a

[00:30:12.27] spk_0:
consultant, which I’m grateful for. So it’s

[00:30:12.52] spk_3:
about the relationships,

[00:30:33.84] spk_0:
you know, and then the relationships lead to support, and that is not necessarily money. It could be, but it’s not always, um so I share, so I share four stories on the video video is at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony. Take two. Now let’s do the live love. There’s

[00:31:14.91] spk_3:
loads of it. Oh, my goodness, gracious, Look. Boston, Massachusetts Madison, New Jersey, Washington, Virginia Morehead City, North Carolina Woo Um, that could be Maria. Simple possible. Let’s see staying domestic. Tampa, Florida New York, New York, Indianapolis, Indiana Falls Church, Virginia, Los Angeles, California, Seattle, Washington Who the love goes out of Salt Lake City, Utah. Yes, wonderful. The live love. Thank you to each of you, including Miami Lake, Florida. Look at that. It’s just coming and coming. I can’t stop them. Um, the live love goes out. So glad you’re with us. Let’s go abroad. Knows Aillagon leg long France.

[00:31:22.59] spk_0:
Uh, bonsoir, I’m not sure, but the live love goes out. Um,

[00:31:32.64] spk_3:
Beijing, Of course. Beijing. We haven’t seen you for a while. Where have you been anyhow? So glad you’re with us. Tokyo, Japan. Tron. Oh, that’s our Austria. No. But Tokyo, Japan!

[00:31:34.95] spk_0:
We got to do. Of

[00:31:52.24] spk_3:
course. Konnichi wa. Thank you so much for being with us. Tokyo trout on Austria. That’s brand new. Welcome, Austria. Live love to you. Tehran! Iran. Welcome You’ve been. Now you come through loyal. Thank you, Tehran. Live love out there. Very. Varga knew

[00:31:54.03] spk_0:
Brazil. I know I messed that up. That’s terrible. I just don’t know, really how to pronounce it. But I can’t say over Delgado. Thank you for being with us.

[00:32:04.10] spk_3:
That’s the live love. Thanks so much to each of you and ah, the plot. The plod class I’ve been I’ve been bad about this recently. The plod classed pleasantries. Very bad. Um, it’s supposed to be the podcast pleasantries going out to our over 13,000 listeners through that

[00:32:21.63] spk_0:
medium. Thank you for being with us. Pleasantries to the podcast listeners. Thank you,

[00:32:27.39] spk_3:
Maria Semple. I almost forgot her name.

[00:32:29.35] spk_0:
That’s been since so long she’s been on. She’s the Prospect Finder. She’s a trainer and speaker on Prospect research. Her latest book is Magnify Your Business Tips, Tools and Strategies for Growing Your Business or Your non

[00:32:44.90] spk_3:
profit. She’s our doi end of dirt, cheap and free, and she’s gonna live up to it today. She’s at the prospect finder dot com And at Maria Simple. Maria Semple. Do you recognize my voice?

[00:32:51.59] spk_6:
I absolutely d’oh you.

[00:32:53.99] spk_0:
Thank you. You’re better than me that

[00:32:55.54] spk_3:
I almost forgot your name.

[00:32:56.52] spk_0:
No, I’m doing great. I’m doing great.

[00:33:01.38] spk_3:
You’ve been on since last September. It’s been well.

[00:33:01.61] spk_0:
There was hurricane time around then and other issues that cropped up. So it’s very good to have you back.

[00:33:08.71] spk_6:
Thank you. It’s great to be here.

[00:33:11.09] spk_0:
Are you in the in fact, in North Carolina today or you will am Okay. Okay.

[00:33:16.90] spk_6:
We need to get together when you get back.

[00:33:18.79] spk_3:
Let’s not get carried

[00:33:32.71] spk_0:
away now, Sze, keep it to the show, okay? Your husband Ah, I don’t want to say anything online. I don’t want to say no. No, Bob, um So we’re

[00:33:37.39] spk_3:
talking about Maria’s free resource is today. You want to start with Candid dot or GE? You love them?

[00:33:40.94] spk_6:
Yes, Absolutely. Well, since it has been a while since I’ve been on I know we’ve We’ve talked about guide star in the past, and we’ve talked about the foundation centers. Resource is in the past. The one thing we haven’t covered is they kind of murder, you know,

[00:33:56.90] spk_0:
They kind of they did. They are together. Yeah.

[00:34:25.49] spk_6:
Yeah, in 2019. So, um, and we have uncovered it on the show. So I thought it would be a good opportunity to focus on that a little bit, Um, and just kind of give folks an overview. It’s too, you know, exactly. what you can do on the fight, especially for free. Um, you know, we all know that that these sources also provide sea bass upgrades. Premium service is as well, but you’ve labeled me. What is it? Dry in

[00:34:29.33] spk_3:
the end of dirt, cheap and free. You got three in the second. I’ve

[00:34:33.64] spk_6:
gotta keep keep it today.

[00:34:35.30] spk_0:
Today’s Maria’s free resource is so Yeah, you can certainly mention the paid, But

[00:34:39.63] spk_3:
what can we do for free?

[00:34:40.59] spk_0:
That’s valuable. A candid dot or GE

[00:36:41.43] spk_6:
So you can still do the 9 90 finder. And what I really like about that is, um, you know, we often have, you know, organizations that you know, sit around in their meetings. You know, Peter was referencing in the first half hour of the show talking about, you know, getting your board together. You’re six people. Eight people tend whatever it is. And when you start having conversations around X spending your your basis supporters in major gift, um, sometimes those folks will be giving to you through a foundation checkbook as opposed to a personal cheque book. Um, and very often you may not even realize that there are folks with a foundation checkbook who may be in your backyard. So what I like about the 9 90 finder is that you can you if you mean it, when you log into the candid site and you you go to look at the various research things you can do on their things, you can do tab. Then you go to the 9 90 finder. You can click on more search options once the search box appears, and it’ll allow you to put in a specific zip code where you want to be able to do some prospecting. So again, we’ve talked in the past about reactive prospecting and proactive. So sure you could do the reactive stuff. You could still go in. Put in the known name of a foundation that you want to learn more about. That’s more of the reactive. But if you’re trying to come up with a list of potential maybe family foundations in your community, this is a great way to do it, and so you can prospect it by a specific zip code. And then when you do that and you come up with your list of search results, what I like to do then is to click on the Total Assets column so that you can actually sort the results. So if you want to see the results by total assets from lowest to highest or highest Lois, it gives you an opportunity to say immediately, Who are those largest foundations right here in our community? Um, and I think that could be immensely helpful for small to midsize non profit who really serve a specific geographic region.

[00:37:07.01] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Excellent. The 9 90 finder.

[00:37:34.78] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, you know, once you have that, those lists of foundations, you know, certainly click on them. Ah, and so that you can get to the actual 9 90 itself, which is going to be chock full of information as everybody. I’m sure listening knows, Um, what I like about it is that sometimes I’ve looked at some nine nineties that have maybe zero listed in assets or a very low number, like, I don’t know, $1500 or something like that.

[00:37:42.88] spk_0:
You think?

[00:38:21.92] spk_6:
Oh, well, this isn’t a very big foundation. Why should I bother? Even may be looking at this. And when you did a little deeper and you look at the 9 90 Sometimes you’ll find that they’re the reason why it may have a very low or zero number in The Assets column. Is because it is really being used as a passed through right, so their their their intention is not to have those assets sitting there. It’s really to, you know, bring the money in fund funded that year and then immediately cut the checks out in that same calendar year. My tip, I guess, is just don’t discount those really small or zero asset foundations, dig a little deeper and take a look at those nine nineties

[00:38:33.56] spk_0:
eso. So we’re so so where will you find the grant information? So let’s say it is a pastor the way you’re describing, and they make a 1,000,000 1/2 dollars worth of grants every year. Will you find that information on the 9 90 if so, where?

[00:38:49.22] spk_6:
So just kind of some through sometimes they will have. It is a separate attachment. That’s part of the 9 90 though it depends on how many grants they’ve made. But there will be a section of the 9 90 that will list the grants paid in that calendar

[00:39:03.96] spk_0:
year

[00:39:19.49] spk_6:
and you’ll actually up, you’ll actually be able to see exactly the organizations that receive the money and how much they received. And sometimes if they even have money if approved for future payments, right? So maybe they’ve made a a multiyear commitment to an organization. And so they may decide to list out, um, the future years that they anticipate to pay out to that organization

[00:39:31.04] spk_0:
as well. So that’s a that’s a cool that’s a pro tip. So don’t pay so much attention to the assets as you do the granting that they do.

[00:39:40.02] spk_6:
Yes,

[00:39:40.56] spk_0:
exactly.

[00:39:41.33] spk_6:
I

[00:39:41.50] spk_0:
would pay

[00:40:09.74] spk_6:
much more attention to the grants paid than you know than the other. And also you want I’m able to be able to see. Is this foundation even accepting proposals at all? Because you don’t really want to spin your wheels on approaching foundations and you know, sitting there and writing a grant proposal and you send it off in the mail. And then, you know, you kind of sit there waiting when in fact, this foundation may not accept proposals.

[00:40:13.00] spk_0:
That’s an enormous. That’s an enormous fail. If you’ve spent time, even if you know, if you spent time writing a letter of inquiry. If they’re not accept there, So how do we find this out?

[00:40:22.11] spk_6:
So on generally, it’s on page 10 of the 9 90

[00:40:25.96] spk_3:
going the

[00:40:26.96] spk_6:
way down

[00:40:27.72] spk_3:
this

[00:40:27.88] spk_0:
expertise on non profit radio.

[00:40:29.47] spk_3:
Go to page 10 of

[00:40:31.52] spk_0:
the 9 90 Yeah,

[00:41:23.51] spk_6:
there’s a check box that the number that the the foundation can check off if they’re not accepting unsolicited proposals. So you want to make sure that that check boxes is checked or not? If it’s checked again there, I wouldn’t necessarily discount them if it feels like, let’s say you’re a kn animal rescue group and you see that this foundation has been making, you know a lot of the majority of their grants are two organizations in you know, that fund animal welfare? Well, maybe there’s somebody on your board that knows one of those board members because don’t forget the board members of the trustees of that foundation are gonna be listed in that 9 90 You might be better off just circulating the names of those trustees with your board to say, Hey, do any of you have a connection with any of these people? I’m not asking you to necessarily make the approach for us right away. But I’d like to see if there’s some way we can get an introduction to the foundation because they seem to be a perfect match for our mission.

[00:42:02.97] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. We got to take a break. Uhm we come back, you know, with a little bit more on candid. But then we got to get the FTC, and you also have some conferences you want. You want to shut out. So, um, just setting setting up the agenda, right? Time for our last break

[00:42:06.64] spk_3:
turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. This is what they used to do so that your call gets answered when there’s news you need to comment

[00:42:17.61] spk_0:
on so that you stay relevant in your community and including former journalist one on the

[00:42:24.56] spk_3:
Chronicle of Philanthropy. So they know this community. You want to build these relationships again? Relationships. Look at the theme coming through. My God, it’s incredible.

[00:42:37.26] spk_0:
Um, I’m gonna build these journalists relationships, so you stay relevant. Turn hyphen to dot ceo, we’ve got

[00:42:44.38] spk_3:
butt loads. More time for Maria’s free resource is okay. You want to give us one more for Ah, Candid.

[00:42:49.66] spk_6:
Yes, sure you do. Two quick ones, actually, For candidates,

[00:42:56.43] spk_0:
I say one. She says Do. Alright, FBO Quick

[00:42:57.78] spk_6:
start. Right, which is the foundation directory online. Quick. Start there too. You can search by a city or state, thereby giving you the ability to prospect by, um, you know, by zip code zip code.

[00:43:11.37] spk_0:
Okay. What is this? What

[00:43:12.21] spk_3:
is this called again? What I think

[00:43:14.12] spk_6:
is as much information provided under this under their free plan. Um so I think the fbo quick start is a little bit more limited. I personally I like the 9 90 finder better.

[00:43:26.66] spk_0:
Okay, wait, hold on. Providing

[00:43:28.40] spk_6:
Klippel about is that they

[00:43:29.64] spk_3:
do have

[00:43:30.05] spk_6:
a tab. They’re called request for proposals. And, um, what they do list there are They connects you to grant opportunities that are available through the philanthropy news digest, and it does include deadlines. So what I like there again if you you’re scrolling through that and you know, you see some opportunities for you to apply for a grant opportunity that you didn’t realize was available that’s coming up. You should still have plenty of time to make the grant deadline and, um, you know, on and get in on the new money.

[00:44:02.03] spk_3:
Okay. Where did you say you find the quick search?

[00:44:06.79] spk_6:
Um uh, those are all under the things you can do. Tab. Um, you have FD. Oh, quick start. You’ve got requests for proposals. Um, and the 9 90 finder. Those air all under the once you get a candid dot or GE go to things you can do and you’ll find those additional tabs.

[00:44:24.49] spk_0:
Okay? And you said the request for proposals includes deadlines.

[00:44:28.09] spk_6:
It does.

[00:44:29.48] spk_3:
Okay, okay. All right, let’s move. Thio FTC dot

[00:44:32.85] spk_0:
gov federal election commission dot gov But f e c f d c dot gov

[00:44:37.14] spk_3:
What you like this for?

[00:46:34.88] spk_6:
Well, I thought since we were in an election year, it would be a good source for people to kind of keep an eye on. Um, you know, folks who are making a political contributions. It does show, you know, a certain level of disposable income and obviously shows political leanings as well, which may or may not be used full depending on the type of organization that you are. Um, so when you get to the F e c. Website. It’s a very busy website. Um, and one of the things that you want to do first is go to the campaign finance data tap. And then from there, you’ll be able to click down where it says, look up contributions from specific individuals. Yeah, so you can. And so basically anybody, um, the what? The reports will include our people making contributions in excess of $200 per election cycle. Right. So let’s say you give somebody, you know, $50 here and there. Once it hits that $200 mark, the, uh, the campaigns have to start filing this with the Federal Election Commission. Um, after he hits that $200 level, right? So again here, one of the things that you have to keep in mind is that you can proactively prospect this you can you can do a search. Uh uh, on, uh, on a zip code. And the data that you’re gonna get is goingto have the name of the person, the air mailing address, their occupation and name of employer. But here’s a big, big caveat is that there is not supposed to be. This data is not supposed to be used in any way, shape or form for soliciting whether they had soliciting business. We’re soliciting charitable donations.

[00:46:40.44] spk_0:
No,

[00:47:00.28] spk_6:
I bring it up as a resource, more so that you can maybe cross check. Are any of your, um, current donors also political contributors? And you know, at what level is a contributing in the political realm and where, But also you should just be aware that again, they they call it salting the data. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that term before.

[00:47:09.27] spk_0:
Sultan. I’ve heard it. A CD. What happened? I’ve heard seeding go ahead.

[00:47:56.08] spk_6:
The committees that are reporting that are sending in their reports, right? Salting the data means they’re going to be sprinkling the report with up to 10 fictitious contributor names. And those contributor names are gonna end up having a really address. It’s usually like gonna be a committee employees or something like that that they may use. So if you start, if you go and do a proactive search by zip code, you might be getting some of this seated data in there, right, that salted data that will enable you to send out, you know, postcard campaign or letters or

[00:47:58.68] spk_0:
whatever,

[00:48:03.80] spk_6:
but it could end up winding up in a mailbox of somebody who’s monitoring to see is somebody using this data illegally,

[00:48:08.58] spk_0:
right? You’re gonna get You’re gonna get snagged. So wegner is

[00:48:11.02] spk_6:
very, very careful

[00:48:12.61] spk_0:
whether or not

[00:48:20.56] spk_6:
use it in that way. But it is a really good source to cross check, you know, and see if any of your donors are contributing politically.

[00:48:34.73] spk_0:
OK, Ok, um, sesame seeds or salted or whatever it is, you don’t use it the wrong way because you’re gonna get you might get caught. And ah, that’s bad. Yeah. Yeah, bad business. Um, just like you seed or sesame seed or salt, whatever. You do your own and your own mail lists to see what you’re sending out, right to see how how timely your mail house is actually sending stuff to the post office, are they? Is it postmarked the day that they say it’s going to postmark? Same. You know, you’re trying to catch them. You’re trying to keep them honest. Well, Federal Election Commission’s trying keep you honest. Okay, enough about that. Um,

[00:49:04.04] spk_3:
that’s interesting. I love that Look up

[00:49:13.77] spk_0:
contributions from specific individuals that school. So you can You can search by when you’re doing an individual’s you could do name, name and name and state can you go like Is that

[00:49:16.36] spk_3:
how you do it?

[00:49:17.47] spk_6:
Yeah, Well, you can You can certainly look

[00:49:19.69] spk_0:
at a

[00:49:19.92] spk_6:
particular individual’s name. Um and, you know, any time I’m doing, you know, my in depth donor profiles. This is one resource I always cross check to see if this person is making large political donations in addition to charitable contributions.

[00:49:36.00] spk_0:
Okay. Okay.

[00:49:37.11] spk_6:
So it’s definitely one of my tools that I use to do research, but I did want to give that caveat on the, you know, proactive aspect of it is You do want to be careful on Don’t use it illegally.

[00:49:49.62] spk_3:
Anything else on FCC?

[00:49:54.76] spk_6:
No, I got it.

[00:49:58.28] spk_3:
Okay, you have some conference is coming up. Did you want to share?

[00:50:40.82] spk_6:
Yes, right. So before you know it, the big annual APA conference will be coming up. It’s always in the summer months. And so APRA You’ve heard me talk about them before. It’s the Association of Professional Researchers for advancement. Their website is APRA home dot or ge. And there you’re gonna see various opportunities. So the big one is their summer conference. Um, and that is held. Um, that is held, uh, August 4th through the seventh. It’s going to be held in Washington, D C this year. Um, and you can learn all about that, you know, on Apple’s website. So that’s sort of the biggie.

[00:50:46.56] spk_0:
And

[00:51:29.46] spk_6:
then I thought I’d just let you know about some Call them smaller, More regional conferences that are taking place. One is coming up real quick in also in Washington D. C. Actually, um, on march 12th the APRA Metro D C. Chapter is having an annual conference, so that might be one to put on your calendars if you’re in that neck of the woods. Um, another one is, um APRA Greater New York chapter is presenting something called Prospect Khan 2020. That will be March 17th. And that’s taking place at the N Y U Kimmel Center. Uh, you’ve got

[00:51:31.25] spk_0:
Marie 20

[00:51:32.19] spk_6:
third.

[00:51:33.17] spk_0:
Yeah, go ahead. Where’s March 23rd?

[00:51:35.80] spk_6:
New Orleans.

[00:51:36.66] spk_0:
There you go. Get

[00:51:37.58] spk_3:
out of the Eastern Sea

[00:51:40.59] spk_0:
s get out of the Eastern Seaboard. Overdrive

[00:52:05.84] spk_6:
is happening March 23rd. Ah, in New Orleans and the other one I want to talk about is in the Midwest on May 7th. APRA Midwest is having a conference 2020 and that’s gonna be, um, May 7th and eighth in Des Moines, Iowa. And so again, if you go to the APRA website, you’ll be able Thio find all of these particular opportunities available. Thio under their events Tab,

[00:52:11.84] spk_3:
Are you a conference speaker? Do you still do that?

[00:52:26.86] spk_6:
I am not speaking at any of the upcoming up APRA conferences this year, but I’ll tell you, they’re speakers are always amazing. Um, very often they’re going to be from some of the larger universities and so forth. And so even a small to midsize non profit will have a lot of takeaways by attending thes conferences. And again, if it’s not your budget to go to the big annual conference, see about some of the chapter opportunities, um, that are closer by and those air usually gonna be a bit more affordable.

[00:52:58.26] spk_0:
Your practice is so robust you don’t need to be speaking any longer. It’s the clients are coming to you. All right,

[00:53:00.75] spk_6:
enjoy it.

[00:53:01.37] spk_3:
And you share your expertise here as well?

[00:53:06.80] spk_0:
Absolutely. All right. Um Let’s make sure we we don’t wait another September, October, November, December, January, February, March Another six months before you come back. Okay?

[00:53:13.92] spk_6:
Absolutely.

[00:53:27.85] spk_0:
All right, Let’s work on that. And maybe a dinner. We’ll see. Like I said, let’s not get carried away. They will keep it to a lunch. I feel like a better lunch. Better, thank you very much. She’s the Prospect Finder. Ah, at Maria Simple. The prospect finder dot com are doi end of their cheap and free. Thank you, Maria. Simple.

[00:53:34.94] spk_6:
Thank you.

[00:53:35.59] spk_0:
My pleasure.

[00:53:38.20] spk_3:
Next week. Sexual harassment

[00:53:43.79] spk_0:
in Nonprofits timed to the sentencing of Harvey Weinstein. If you

[00:53:43.98] spk_3:
missed any part of today’s

[00:53:45.10] spk_0:
show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

[00:53:49.13] spk_3:
were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Coca Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot c e o

[00:54:14.44] spk_2:
our creative producers. Graham. My route Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. And this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 percent. Go out and be great.

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[00:00:13.74] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:00:21.63] spk_2:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host.

[00:00:23.19] spk_0:
We have a listener of the week Rusty Stall in Beacon, New

[00:01:47.40] spk_2:
York He went back and shared number show number 4 19 which is the encouragement show on Twitter. That one is from December 2018. Folks, you share, I shout out, Thank you very much, Rusty. Thanks for sharing the show. Glad you loved it. Congratulations on being this week’s listener of the week. Rusty Stall. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasized a phobia if you missed our fifth show in The Innovators. Siri’s get to the next level stop overlooking investment level, giving opportunities because you’re spending too much time on events and Facebook ads. Sherry Kwame Taylor walks through how to start your major giving program or how to find Tune and kick it up a notch. She’s a fundraising consultant and coach on Tony’s Take. Two planned giving relationship stories were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there. Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot C e o so great for to our sponsors really appreciate them so much.

[00:01:51.94] spk_0:
What a pleasure

[00:02:14.80] spk_2:
to welcome. First time to the show Cherie Kwame Taylor. She teaches non profit leaders had a pivot from small dollar donations to securing larger investment level donations so they can finally fund their missions. She does this nationally through her private coaching and her 90 day Let’s Grow Fundraising accelerator. She’s at kwame taylor dot com And at Sherry.

[00:02:19.22] spk_0:
Cute Taylor. Welcome. Es que t?

[00:02:22.49] spk_5:
Hey, Tony, how are you today?

[00:02:23.96] spk_0:
I’m doing very well. Where you calling

[00:02:25.46] spk_2:
in? From Sherry Kwan Teller.

[00:02:27.11] spk_5:
I am in Chicago

[00:02:28.49] spk_2:
land. Chicago. Your home. Okay. Your home base. You’re in Chicago. Okay. I

[00:02:31.87] spk_5:
am right in the middle of the country. Where were you? Where It’s cold.

[00:02:35.53] spk_0:
Yeah, Chicagoans always bring that

[00:02:37.09] spk_2:
up. I don’t like the first thing they say in the winter.

[00:02:40.07] spk_5:
We’re really tired of it

[00:02:41.42] spk_2:
here in the end of February. Got

[00:02:43.11] spk_5:
a couple months ago.

[00:02:52.83] spk_2:
I just asked somebody the difference Where was he calling from? Ah, the difference. Is there a difference between 10 below and 20 below? Do you know that? Does that marginal? 10 degrees to make no difference.

[00:02:58.61] spk_5:
Not not to me not to let

[00:03:00.20] spk_2:
it go

[00:03:00.47] spk_5:
under under zero. It’s kind all the same.

[00:03:03.17] spk_2:
It’s also okay. Okay.

[00:03:05.34] spk_0:
Um, so you have Ah, You have a pretty

[00:03:17.94] spk_2:
interesting practice. An interesting niche. Just why I wanted you to be one of our innovators. Um, you’re helping organizations get going with individual and then and Major Given,

[00:03:25.33] spk_5:
Right? Right. Yeah. I mean, just like you, tony. I’m really focused on those groups who are under that Usually $1 million mark And I love working with

[00:03:33.29] spk_2:
Okay. There was a lot of chatter on LinkedIn, so lots of

[00:03:36.66] spk_0:
lots of women. I think I was the only guy

[00:03:38.11] spk_2:
who commented in here on your link with you. Do you have anything do you work with? Do you work with Male of fundraisers? Ideally, you will. I

[00:03:46.91] spk_5:
think I made about 50 50%

[00:03:54.87] spk_2:
representative of population. Okay, um, I was just interesting. I said I noticed we’ll get a chance to shout some of them out of shortly if if they’re listening, in fact. So

[00:04:00.53] spk_0:
where do you see

[00:04:08.44] spk_2:
people sticking? Like What? What’s what’s what’s the typical, um, scenario for someone who needs your help? Where are they that you’re trying to get them past?

[00:04:16.13] spk_5:
Yeah, great, great question. So typically the people

[00:04:19.20] spk_2:
I’m working with

[00:05:51.62] spk_5:
are you know, I work with a lot of founders who have started non profits. And so, you know, they’re absolute subject matter issues, subject matter experts at their mission. And they started the non profit, and they’ve had a great level of success have gotten it to a certain point. But then there’s becomes the sticking point. It’s like, Oh, this is this is getting harder and harder to fund and what we have a waiting list for our service is and or gosh, I’d love to hire my first staff person, but I don’t know how to scale this financially and so I mean the favorite. I mean, really, probably the favorite part about my work is working with mission experts and people who have raise your hands and said, Yeah, that is a problem, and I’m going to, you know, found a non profit to try to solve that, but they necessarily they probably haven’t ever needed to know how to do major major level gift cultivation. So they’ve never been taught how to do it. And until oftentimes I find that, um, they’re funding, maybe has plateau because they’ve been kind of trying all the thing with some successful some not. But I really don’t know how to move into a larger gifts and so usually to kind of profiles I work with. And one would be what I just described. And then I also work with a lot of groups who are over that $1,000,000 mark. Um, but maybe they have a tremendous amount of either program revenue or revenue from the government. And they haven’t really strengthen their charitable giving,

[00:05:53.25] spk_2:
you

[00:05:55.98] spk_5:
know, they’re not bringing in a that could be bringing it.

[00:06:50.94] spk_2:
Yeah, or now a lot of people who ask me the question, How do you get to the next level had a week. How do we get to next level? Are wedded to events? You know, I whether it’s a gala or it’s a run or it’s a bunch of smaller events, you know, and my concern there is that they’re they’re fearful of and and also have not been trained in, as you said, individual individual giving, that they’re not comfortable sitting across a kitchen table or a desk, and hopefully it’s in their office because I like to control the setting. But we’ll get to the details that and ask people for whether it’s $500 or $50,000. Whatever level you at your at and you believe they should be at, they’re not comfortable doing that. So they host these events because they never have. They just ask for tickets on gates and auction items, and there’s never a face to face. Would you consider a gift of $50,000 for the for the mission that I just described and to get us to where I just said We need to be?

[00:08:22.09] spk_5:
You’re speaking my language, tony. I mean, I see so often, um, that organizations Oh, we have five annual events or, um, you know, we just you know, the board says you write more grant proposals or let’s just try. You continue to try all the things and that that concept you just nailed it that that step by step plan into oh So you’re telling me I should be carrying in my my world a top 30 portfolio of donors and that top 30 actually should be bringing in between 50 and 75% of my revenue. And you actually want me to go sit down one on one and present to them, or you don’t have a relationship with them and ask them for money. Oh, I like that Could never do that. Like I hate asking people for money, right? I get that all day long, and and that’s really where? Why I see people stock and frankly, why, in my opinion, you know, 77% of nonprofits are under a $1,000,000 because that that fear is kind of holding the back of What would I say when I get in that meeting, right? Like what? Is that? What questions are they gonna ask me? And so I think that being open to saying If you don’t know how to do that, it’s time to invest in yourself

[00:08:23.66] spk_2:
to

[00:08:37.90] spk_5:
learn how to do that. Because that’s a way to protect fundraising. Then, um, you know, the events or the appeals are giving Tuesday, which are all fine things. But if the majority of your funding really should be coming in from your top 30 donors, why are you allocating all of your time and energy and budget into smaller gifts?

[00:09:17.62] spk_2:
Okay, we’re gonna get to our we’re gonna take our first break. And after that, well, we’re gonna get into the steps and answer a lot of those questions that you just rhetorically asked wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner. You know which doom? Just on the show last week. You know him and he’s been on before Aunt and his firm, wegner-C.P.As, that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under their belt under their belt. They just were. Collectively, they just wear one belt. It’s a whole bunch of accountants, one belt wrapping, all of

[00:09:22.79] spk_3:
them on,

[00:09:32.52] spk_0:
and you get that expertise in the in their advice. Alright, wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s do the live love. Um, starting with that, I’m gonna start right here this time. You don’t do that. But New York, New York, we got multiple right here in New York,

[00:09:37.18] spk_2:
New York and moving out from the New York area got Falls Church,

[00:09:42.00] spk_0:
Virginia, Albuquerque, New Mexico. I love

[00:09:46.55] spk_2:
Albuquerque. I think I stayed at the The Albuquerque. The hotel Albuquerque. Is there such place? I love Al Albuquerque is a beautiful, beautiful city. Live love Out to Albuquerque and

[00:09:54.61] spk_0:
Tucson, Arizona, Fairfield, Connecticut, Tampa, Florida Barberton, Ohio. Um, yes. Live, love, live love

[00:10:34.74] spk_2:
to our domestic live listeners. Thank you for being with us and going abroad. Looks like Adana, Turkey, I hope. Adana, Turkey. I hope your family members are all safe attack in Syria just yesterday. Right? I hope your family is all safe. Tehran, Iran. Thank you for being with us. Checking in often. Tehran. You get to be regulars. Thank you. Appreciate that. Live love out there. Um, Belo Horizonte. Orders aren’t a Brazil. I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Obey God! Oh, for our Brazil listener and Seoul, South Korea, of course, Always checks in. So loyal

[00:10:44.54] spk_0:
annual Casio comes a ham Nida and also a Saudi Arabia. I think that’s a new one. Jetta Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Live love to each

[00:11:27.35] spk_2:
of our listeners abroad. Thank you for being with us on the podcast Pleasantries tour. Over 13,000 listeners in the time shift Pleasantries to you. I’m so glad that not profit radio fits into your life. Okay, let’s go back. Yes, Thio, get to the next level. All right, Sherry, you have you step by step. And if the host is any good at this show, which is always questionable, that seems after nine and 1/2 years. That’s still an open question. Then if he is, we’ll get to all the steps. So you want to start with the end in mind? Start with your endgame.

[00:11:44.24] spk_5:
Yeah, I d’oh! So you know, I might my challenge to people when I start working with them, as they say. Okay, so we’re gonna put a new cap on here or new lens on if you will. And that your investment level lens. And so if we’re gonna go prepare you to go start sitting down are forming relationships so you can eventually sit down with people

[00:11:51.25] spk_2:
and ask

[00:12:59.94] spk_5:
some first went for $25,000. We need to be We need to have a different type of lens on it. I if you saw me right now. I’d be doing this pivot with my body. But what I’m saying is I wanted to shift from Well, yeah, if we had the money. We do that. Yeah. If I had the money, I’d hire that person. If I had the money, I’d start that program. I want to shift that too. Here’s actually what our plans are. And here’s what we need this year. And so if you even think you know ahead to a solicitation and donor said so what do you need? And you hesitate and say, Well, you know what? We did this last year. We’d love to do this and we really hope we can vs. So glad you asked that we have an $800,000 need this year. And here’s what we’re going to dio and being Bing Bing, right? So it’s amazing That seems really simple, right? But that really that pivot from We gotta stop reacting to all the things and actually kind of push the pause button and put a proactive plan in place. Move from that scarcity to need model and move from trying to, you know, fundraise to everyone to really getting honed in on the top 30 donors.

[00:13:27.08] spk_2:
Okay, Now, at this step, we don’t We don’t have a particular donor in mind where we’re assessing our overall need for the year Or maybe maybe a two year plan or something like that. We’re just We’re focused on our our need. We’re not. We’re not focused on any individual donor yet. Or donors? Not yet. Because

[00:14:20.14] spk_5:
so often even budgets are sat. You know, sometimes how do you set your budget? Well, first we look at the money we have pledged. Well, hold on now. First, we need to look at what you need, right? And so what? We’re gonna talk about that step because budgeting is the key here. And so all of this tony is really rooted in me. My goal is to really help my clients learn how to leave their donors, every donor to giving their best guess and then helping them give that gift every year and getting them in a strong annual fund. And so I always say to people, if your donors best gift is $25 a month and that’s the best gift amazing, let’s provide the most amazing donor experience for that person. But if you’re if you’re, uh, donors, best gift is a $25,000 gift, and they’re only giving you five. We have some work to do, right? So if if all of our donors were giving their best guess, this would be a game changer

[00:14:24.44] spk_2:
How sorry. How are we gonna know what the best gift is for each of our top 30?

[00:15:00.24] spk_5:
Well, the first thing starts with relationship building and actually being comfortable talking about investment. And so oftentimes I find that we are so passionate about our missions way we know them obviously better than anybody. And so our conversations are a little bit like, Oh, here’s the crisis. Here’s the problem we’re solving And here’s what we d’oh on here some really great stories. And here’s some numbers of you know, this percentage of kids are doing this now and then It it kind of drops off like, Well, I think they’ll give because they really ask some great questions. And I know they have capacity, so we’ll see where that goes.

[00:15:37.21] spk_2:
Where where does a prospect research fit in? Do you? I’m a big advocate of gaining as much knowledge as I can about a person from the person themselves. And if you if you ask the right questions and if you’re a good listener, you’ll learn all about how many kids they have, what they what they do for a living or what they retired from where their vacation homes are. If they if they have them boats where they travel, whether they travel, you’ll learn a ton of things just from the person. But does thank you. Okay, but does does outside prospect research fit into your schema?

[00:16:28.74] spk_5:
Yeah, sometimes, like here’s the thing. What I find tony is I find that typically, and that kind of that model non profit where we started at the top of the hour. I actually find that many times they have donors who are sitting right around them, and a lot of times it’s they aren’t giving their best gift because A. They haven’t really known what the organization needed, because either they didn’t know how to share that, where they don’t know what they need or B they’ve never been asked, and so totally groovy. Oh, this is the slow game when we’re starting, when we’re getting to know our donors, why they’re giving why they value giving tow us, knowing every single thing and just having a relationship with him, right?

[00:16:32.37] spk_2:
Yeah, because Because the first meeting is not the ask.

[00:16:34.61] spk_5:
No, no,

[00:16:36.31] spk_2:
make that. Let’s make that explicit. Yeah,

[00:16:47.44] spk_5:
Yeah, I literally just had a client or a board member of a client. Say so. You mean to tell me we’re not asking in this meeting? I think it’s the first meeting you didn’t propose to your spouse on the first date,

[00:16:50.75] spk_2:
right? Good analogy. Yeah.

[00:17:07.88] spk_5:
Yeah. So, um, so it’s a slow game, But I would also say there’s just Yes, of course. I want, you know, people, you know, doing prospect research and, you know, running reports and doing due diligence. But I would also say Don’t forget that we can go talk to them

[00:17:09.30] spk_2:
and we can

[00:17:26.72] spk_5:
go for a relationship with them and share what we need, because they time and time again, I have clients moved five figure gifts to six figure gifts. I’ve sat in these solicitations and heard their donors say I didn’t know you needed that. What have you never asked? I mean, so great. But also Oh, my goodness.

[00:17:43.75] spk_2:
Subsumed in something you just said is Don’t let the lack of information keep you from that solicitation that that asked. You know, if you feel like I don’t know quite enough, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know what you know. You’re never gonna know everything. So you get a much as you can have those preliminary meetings. Maybe somebody on the board knows the person. Or maybe not. But, you know, but don’t let the ah lack of some some little bit. I never found out where they have Children or not, or whether how old their Children are. Don’t let that stop you from going ahead with your ask

[00:18:06.98] spk_5:
your right.

[00:18:07.60] spk_2:
Otherwise, you’ll you’ll spin

[00:18:12.79] spk_5:
your spin. Until this concept, Like what you said, Um, I want you sitting down one on one with your top 30 donors,

[00:18:17.17] spk_2:
but

[00:18:35.66] spk_5:
more than that and asking them. And every time I speak, I always have somebody raise your hand and say, Can I e mail him, you know, like not rarely, right or the other thing is yet I’ll say, Do you Do you do one on one ass? Yeah, we do. We have We’ve got a couple of in string here and we ask that our event. That’s not what I’m talking about. Totally different. Totally different angle here.

[00:18:39.84] spk_2:
Right? Thank you. Okay. And you also mentioned I don’t put a put an exclamation after it. Let’s get out of the scarcity mentality. You said that you said it explicitly. I’m I’m reiterating what you already said. We got it. We got to get out of this. I can’t afford that. I can’t afford the first employee. Uh, that’s part of your That’s part of where

[00:18:59.32] spk_0:
you want to be. I want to hire our first employee.

[00:19:01.01] spk_2:
This? What are we already have a staff of four. I want to hire our first director of development this year. And that’s gonna be ah, $75,000 position. And when I add benefits, it’s gonna

[00:19:10.18] spk_0:
be $100,000 position. That’s what we need.

[00:19:15.39] spk_2:
You know? It’s okay if you saw me. You said earlier if we saw you, you’d be pivoting around. You saw me. I’d be flailing my arms around

[00:19:20.35] spk_5:
sitting up in your care.

[00:19:23.74] spk_2:
Oh, yeah, I’m propped up my aunt. My arms are flailing.

[00:20:00.40] spk_5:
Your leave led me right into step to hear track each other. Um, so I mean, step like, so it’s really moving into. Okay. So, Cherie, you’re telling me I need to go sit down with these people? I need thio eventually. When I feel like the time is right. You want me to ask them for money and sit down and do that? So, you know, often the next step is So what am I saying to them, Right? And so in my world, I always say, there’s there’s three things that really have to be clear in a donor’s mind before they’re going to give you that investment level gift. So obviously one of those being planned, like, what are you doing?

[00:20:02.51] spk_2:
Yeah, we just talked about that. All right? Yeah. And then,

[00:20:14.09] spk_5:
uh, and also, like, I’ll send your strategic plan and whether you have the 40 page binder on the shelf or it’s in a napkin sketch, You know, your donors have to know what your plans are. What are you doing this year so that you can do this next year? Because in five years were kind of thinking this right. Like,

[00:20:21.99] spk_2:
you

[00:21:02.02] spk_5:
have to be talking about your plan in that annual rhythm to get your donors in that annual fund mentality. Right? So you gotta know your plan. You gotta be able to talk like that. So that’s kind of the planning of it, obviously. I mean, we don’t have to spend some time on this, but your programs, what do you do? And I think probably the biggest hang up I see in the Syria would be donors not totally understanding what you do. It kinda have an idea. And then oftentimes, uh, you know, the confusion comes with Well, we do this and this and this and this and this, and we list the activities that we d’oh. We don’t really talk about them in more of an outcome manner or in a in that programmatic structure that really helps him understand how holistically our programs fit together to actually be solving.

[00:21:21.04] spk_2:
And Sherry, if if this is an existing donor, let’s say and you’re trying to get them to the next level, you know, look at what they’ve been funding in the past because that’s if if they have a specific program, maybe it’s unrestricted. In which case we’re grateful for, of course, for general support too. But if there is something that they’ve designated they’re giving to in the past. Uh, focus on that. You know that. Focus on that part of your your plan and your need You need

[00:21:45.93] spk_5:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so it’s always a balance of I want to feed the donor’s interest, right? Like, oh, they’re really, really excited about our scholarship program. Okay, great. We want to know that. But our job also is a leader is to say, OK, how wonderful. You know, we’re investing $300,000 in our scholarship program this year. Our organization has an $800,000 need, right? Like I want them to know the whole need

[00:22:07.03] spk_2:
of organization, but

[00:23:34.04] spk_5:
they’re super passionate about a program, you know, that’s what we’re gonna feed. Right? Um, So there’s there’s the donors who Really? Yeah, they understand. We do. They volunteer for us. They’re deep in this with us. They’re really stakeholders. Um, you know, I have some while those funny stories of donors who were giving to organizations who asked off the wall questions like, How do you guys were doing this, right? So there’s some clarity that needs to happen. There is, um, it might be that we’re speaking in acronyms are, you know, kind of speaking in our jargon because we’re so intimate with our industry. But how can we How can we talk about what we do in a way that really helps the donor see the impact that a gift could have on the lives that were serving? Um, Okay, So I said three things have to be clear so that there obviously their plans in the programs and the 3rd 1 which is maybe my favorite thing to talk about tony is the financial need. What do you need financially? And so every single time I talked to, uh, somebody new, I always say, I got to be honest. It’s a little bit of a test. Um, I say so. So what? What? Your what? Your financial need this year, I’m kind of asking, what’s your budget? And 9.5 times out of 10 I get. Well, last year we did about 6 80 And so we I mean, we hope we could do that. I don’t know, maybe 7 20 You know, in essence, a little our need is a little bit more than last year

[00:23:38.91] spk_2:
right there, but they’re Basically, they’re constraining it based on what they did last year versus what would be what? What would get the organization again to the next level. Or, you know what, really what I really need to do or want, want or need to do not just constrained and tied to what they did last year,

[00:23:59.18] spk_5:
right? Right. So I kind of called.

[00:24:00.68] spk_2:
It’s like an anchor dragging you down what you did last year. What

[00:24:04.09] spk_0:
do you want to do this year? What do you need to do this year?

[00:24:08.15] spk_5:
Yeah, yeah. You know, you’re gonna come to meetings with me, tony. So I call that

[00:24:11.75] spk_2:
I don’t think you can afford me. I’m sorry.

[00:24:16.23] spk_5:
Okay. Never mind that. I kind of call that like, Okay, so that’s your more of your squeak by budget. Look, you’ve got to get that number,

[00:24:22.02] spk_2:
But

[00:24:33.91] spk_5:
then, you know, when I dig a little bit, I’ll say OK, so So you need, you know, a 20 in my example. I guess so. What’s not in that number, you know, And when I start digging a little bit, it always happens. Okay. So, um, are you are you paid by the organization? Well, you know I was approved to take the 70

[00:24:40.71] spk_2:
$1000 salary, but

[00:24:41.81] spk_5:
I’ve only been taking a 20

[00:24:42.92] spk_2:
five or

[00:25:06.64] spk_5:
I we have a waiting list, but we don’t have enough er staff or, um, you know, do you have a reserve fund? Well, no. You know where it ebbs and flows, you know? Are you investing in technology? Are you? You know anything? So my point of this is you have got to create a riel. Need space budget to grow.

[00:25:11.44] spk_2:
No,

[00:25:12.12] spk_5:
this cannot desist. Moving from reactive to proactive.

[00:25:15.45] spk_2:
This is

[00:25:20.28] spk_5:
the biggest thing. If there’s a takeaway from anybody today, it’s budgeting. And sometimes I laugh. I don’t know. I talk about budgeting all day long, and I don’t know how I how this came to be, but your budget is your plan for the year.

[00:25:28.87] spk_2:
Andi. So, Daddy, and put

[00:25:30.90] spk_5:
those things in.

[00:25:32.10] spk_2:
Yes, what? Your deeds are what you what you aspire to. And don’t be anchored by what you did

[00:25:36.53] spk_0:
last year

[00:25:37.07] spk_2:
or the year before.

[00:25:38.10] spk_0:
That’s dragging you down. That’s that’s, you know, 10% 15

[00:25:53.97] spk_2:
percent growth, thinking you’ll reach your reach a $1,000,000 in revenue in 15 years. That wave incrementally 10% of 10% growth from year to year of your starting its 6 80 or something. What? How

[00:25:54.94] spk_0:
did you know? Think big.

[00:25:57.47] spk_2:
But in terms of staff and programs and, um, and needs, you know, how

[00:26:03.42] spk_0:
do you get where do you want to be?

[00:26:30.60] spk_5:
And I think this is why this is hard. But this is, like, such a sticking point. This is what I’ve kind of come toe watch with my clients because it’s actually like a really fun and clarifying exercise. Thio, get them to kind of watch them pivot into. I could do that. Yeah, well, let’s put it all in and see what the number is. I’m not talking crazy. I’m not telling you to jump from 600 K to 1.2. But what I’m saying is, if you do not say you know what, You’re right. We have even $850,000 need this year.

[00:26:36.14] spk_2:
Like,

[00:26:43.71] spk_5:
if you do not do that, how will you put a development plan in place to actually hit that? Because if you’re putting a development plan in place to,

[00:26:45.68] spk_2:
you know,

[00:26:51.69] spk_5:
way back down toe, maybe hit the 6 80 you will never hit it. And so I’m a big believer in Okay, fine. We have an $850,000 need. I’m looking around the table, right. I want that to roll off everybody’s tongue. And now we’re gonna put a plan in place on how we’re gonna bring that in

[00:27:03.20] spk_2:
because,

[00:27:12.70] spk_5:
you know, oftentimes way find we’re spending tons of time kind of on the expense side of our budget, right? Just every nook and cranny of every expense. But then we aren’t spending the same amount of time saying, OK, so how

[00:27:19.32] spk_0:
are we

[00:27:56.69] spk_5:
gonna bring in the 8 50 and let’s go back to where we started? It’s 50 to 75% of our revenue should come in from our top three donors. We sure as heck should start there. Right? And so I’m a really big believer in using your budget month to month of another little tip. So many people I work with, they haven’t looked at their budget month to month. Here’s what I’m bringing in this month. Here’s what we’re spending this month. It’s more looked at often as more of an annual basis. How do you know what to do in June if you need to bring 50 k n and you gonna spend 47 K. Okay. Well, how do we know what to do then? If we aren’t looking at it month by month?

[00:28:02.64] spk_3:
Okay, um,

[00:28:03.28] spk_5:
budgeting is huge in this huge, huge, huge.

[00:28:12.18] spk_2:
All right, we’re gonna take our our second break. Um, And since you’re, uh, fundraising professional, you’re gonna appreciate time versus goal. We’re halfway through the show, and we’ve only done two of your seven steps, so

[00:28:20.93] spk_5:
they get faster.

[00:28:21.95] spk_2:
Okay? Okay. I told you the host is lackluster at best. On a good day. Lackluster. That

[00:28:28.54] spk_5:
was my longest

[00:29:06.64] spk_2:
time versus goal. All right, take this break. Cookie Mountain Software, Their accounting product, Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need as a non profit and the exemplary support that understands how you work. You’ve heard me talk about that For the testimonials about the support. They have a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two plan giving relationship stories. In my previous video, I talked about playing, giving relationship stories, and

[00:29:06.80] spk_0:
I left out the relationships. How do you talk about relationship

[00:29:09.12] spk_2:
if you don’t include the people I talked about, how they get started and the value of these plan giving long term relationships to your organization. And

[00:29:16.68] spk_0:
then I didn’t tell any relationship stories. How could you see Lackluster at on a good

[00:30:05.02] spk_2:
day? So, uh, plenty of relationships. Stories has four lovely stories, and there’s scores of them that I’m sure I could come up with if I put my mind to it. But these four or top of mind, um, and I tell some very touching stories about the plan giving relationships that the part of planned giving that I love the most those relationships. So those stories are on the video at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is Tony’s Take two. Now back to get to the next level with Sherry Kwan Taylor. She’s a private coach and runs a 90 day fundraising accelerator. Our Sherri, we’re getting to the donors now. We’re gonna start identifying our top 30 donors. We are suppose we’re a small organization. Can we Can we do this with 10 or 15 top donors. Absolutely. Okay,

[00:32:48.54] spk_5:
absolutely. Usually, people are like, Hey, Cheri, I love that you’re talking about top 30 donors, but I’ve got a solid nine, you know, it’s okay. It’s okay. We’re gonna start with nine, and then we’re gonna find the other ones, right? So I would say, like moving into this yet. Let’s talk. Let’s talk about our donors here. So, you know, we have those three things were our plans, our programs, our need. So now, especially with our top 30 now, we need to serve our donors. We need to make sure there’s clarity in those areas and tie it to why they would get why they value giving to the organization. And so my what I want people to hear today is you actually have way more control of the timing of the gift and the size of the gift than you think. And here’s what I mean, but I mean is you have got to craft and create great donor experiences for your top 30 donors, and I’m talking as far as saying okay, so let’s use our example. I always use Tom. And so, um, you know Tom and sue. They always male in a check of Thanksgiving. Yeah, I don’t know. They just always male in that $10,000 check. They must have a family meeting and mail it in. So I say, Well, hold on a second. Uh, we’ve done a little research on Tom and Sue, and they are giving $25,000 to the theater down the road, right? And so how do we How do we It’s It’s January right now. What do we need to dio? But two in January and November to raise their gifts, right? And so I am a believer, and we need to plan that out, and we’re gonna be flexible about it, too. But my goal would be great. So I actually want to get in front of that gift this year. And I want to make sure that I have done everything in my power to lead them to the point where we’re sitting down in October. And I’m having a really healthy, wonderful investment level discussion with them before they just mail in that gift of Thanksgiving, right? And so I want us looking at each one of our 30 donor relations donors and charting out what those steps are going to be and managing those. Because again, this could be 75% of your revenue. And so it is a lot of work. You will never hear the words come out of my mouth. Fundraising is easy because it is discipline. And it is someone waking up every morning and saying, Okay, I gotta push this bar here. I gotta push this here. I gotta move this over here and move this. It takes a lot of time. Um, so this But this is this is how you will grow. This is how you will move into investment level, gets by serving your donors in such an intimate way.

[00:32:57.24] spk_2:
Now, this will also work with Tom and Sam Couples, right?

[00:33:00.73] spk_5:
Yes, of course.

[00:33:01.96] spk_2:
Or Terry and Sue. Okay. We’ll work with it with anybody. Not strictly a hetero plan.

[00:33:07.31] spk_5:
Thank you. Thank

[00:33:08.20] spk_2:
you for pointing that out.

[00:33:19.96] spk_5:
And I’d also say, you know, sometimes people Oh, do you Do you also work with foundations or do you work with corporations or sponsorships? Um I mean, I focus on individual giving, but I would I’d say to you is I will tell you. He’s obviously these warm, wonderful relationship building experiences. It trickles down to every relationship that you should be having with a corporation who’s sponsoring something or, ah, family foundation. And so I’ve actually seen when people have gone through my program and really try to grow their individual giving that it actually has greatly impacted how how they’re approaching their events and how they’re approaching foundations and corporations. Because, um, it’s really all about creating and serving our donors in that way. So I can I’m happy to talk to some of those steps if you if you would like to dig in deeper.

[00:34:47.69] spk_2:
Yeah, well, let’s stick with our individuals of the individual donor side. So, you know, I should have also reminded our live listeners that if you want to join the conversation, uh, hit us up on Twitter, use the hashtag non profit radio hashtag non profit radio on Twitter. If you want to ask you a question or it seemed like there might be ah ah particularly motivated live listener crowd today. So if you want to join in, use that hashtag non profit radio on Twitter, please. That’s that’s what we’re checking and we’re watching it in the studio. So basically, you’re saying you need a cultivation and solicitation plan for each of your top donors. However many there are. You’re saying from between January and October, how are we going to get this couple, uh, in a face to face so that we can explain our need and hopefully raise their race? What is typically they’re you know, they’re November gift. We need a player. We need. We gotta be strategic. We need a plan for each of our donors.

[00:35:20.69] spk_5:
We need a plan and we have to allocate back to that. And we have to allocate your time towards that. It can’t just be the planet has to be really pivoting kind of thing. I’m gonna stop doing that one campaign that yields $4200 every year on Facebook because, frankly, that’s one donor that’s a $5000 donor. So again, don’t hear me say, don’t do Facebook campaigns. I want to do them, but not at the risk that you haven’t started or launched her your individual gift program.

[00:36:21.30] spk_2:
Yeah. Look, look carefully. Look carefully at events that maybe you’re hosting do eyes there. Is there a lackluster event that on this world lackluster today. But good work, eyes. They’re a lackluster event. You know, maybe maybe you don’t even like doing it. But there’s a board member or that loves this event. You know, you need to get around that you need Thio stopped with these activities that are dragging you down and are not as productive show. You’re absolutely right. A 42 100 event. That’s 1 $5000 donor. And in a year, it might be a year after that. It might be a 75 $110,000 donor, and your event isn’t going to scale that way, But individuals will so look strategically at all the things you’re doing. Not just the events, but I keep harping on those that if there is, there’s something unproductive. Put it into this individual giving plan. Yes. Oh, absolutely. But you gotta have cultivation station planned strategy for each donor, and then you gotta work it. You gotta work it. I gotta devote resources to it.

[00:37:02.23] spk_5:
Yeah, and I can I tell you the most important thing on this cultivation plan. Um, let’s say we’ve asked. You didn’t Awesome. High five. They made a decision. They said Yes. Amazing. Okay, so, you know, you heard me say, at the top of the hour, I want them giving their best gift. And I want them giving that gift every year. So after the gift, what do we D’oh! Right. I’m talking thinking my number one rule in thanking is exceed expectations. If that donor says to you, Sure. You didn’t need to do that. That was perfect,

[00:37:05.43] spk_2:
because

[00:38:10.24] spk_5:
I didn’t need to do that. How do we get our donors in an annual fund mentality? Bye. Thank you. Them? How do we get them back in the path, right? If you’re kind of thinking of this line of like, I’m gonna drive them down this line every year. I got to get him way back to the front of line and drive him down again. It’s done through thanking. And so a little tipple gives people who are listening. Oftentimes, it could be a simple of this because all of my clients say Okay, they gave, but like, I don’t know, it’s six months pass, and I don’t know what my excuses to go talk to him again, Right? Well, say, here’s what you should have done. Or here’s what you could do when they give a guest. You know, I’ll thank them. I’ll have it toned Exactly what they value have it tone to our relationship we have with them. We know what they’re interested in. And then there’s this line. I’ll put it the end. And I’ll say, Hey, um, I’m not hey, but, uh, I make it. I make it a policy to report back to people in in 90 days on just the impact that your gift is having on the lives of those we serve all be in touch. What did I just do? I just told him I was calling him in 90 days. Then I’m gonna stop in and tell him what your gift is doing. And I just got back on the path for next year.

[00:38:16.22] spk_2:
That’s excellent.

[00:38:29.55] spk_5:
Yeah, when I say you have more control of the size of the timing, you have more control. You know, when you’re really leading the donor. So hold that. Hold that. Hold that control. Like you know, I love that question. Tony, I’m gonna research that and I will circle back with you next month when I felt when I figure that out or no one’s ever asked me that. But I’m certainly gonna look that up. I’ll shoot. You knew that Back on what I find. Tell him what you’re gonna do next. Hold the control. A huge part of leading your donors through great experiences in getting them in that annual rhythm that we meet all of our donors giving it.

[00:38:52.78] spk_2:
I’m not satisfied with just one thanking tip. I need another tip from Sherri Quinn Taylor. So what’s another insider pro tip for for thanking and exceeding expectations

[00:39:53.71] spk_5:
yet So sometimes sometimes I’ll say things like, um, you know, our question I get often is, you know, what about the donor who says they’re too busy to meet with me? This is I get this all the time. Um, here’s what’s been working for my clients, you know that. Let’s kind of play this out. It’s that, you know, kind of business person. CFO, Super busy. Doesn’t have enough time running around dragon, but we want to get in front of him, right? So I’ll try to mix it up a little bit. I’ll try to do things like, Hey, Chris, um, I wanted just to stop it and share with you and just share something with you on about what your gift is doing. I’m so busy. You know what? Totally cool. I’m gonna be near your office. Do you come in early? Great. Why don’t I just buy you a cup of coffee in the corner? I’ll take 20 minutes of your time before your work day, and we’ll just chap priestly and then keep it to 20 minutes.

[00:39:55.57] spk_2:
Oh,

[00:40:19.11] spk_5:
I do the same thing at lunch. Do you take a quick lunch hour? I’m happy to be on your door stop. And just to share this with you. Because here’s the thing. I think they’re avoiding us sometimes because it’s like, Oh, my goodness, it’s going to be an hour and 1/2 lunch and I’m the busiest person on the planet. And what are they? Are they gonna ask me again? Sometimes I’ll say even say to them Hey, not asking you for a thing, but it’s really important for us to share with you what your gift is doing. So make it easy for the donor to have a meeting with you. Tell him it’s 20 minutes and gets what stick to it.

[00:40:42.02] spk_2:
Sure, timer. Thank you. Thank you. We need to keep. We need to keep moving. My heart is racing time against goal. So, uh, Okay, we’ve got our 30. We’ve got our however many it is. We’ve got our cultivation. So station plan. Let’s do this one briefly before the next break, which is about a man and 1/2. What do we need to have in hand for a solicitation?

[00:41:58.89] spk_5:
So here’s my biggest tip. Oftentimes when we don’t know how to pivot into a financial conversations were talking mission. We’re talking story all heart. I will often say, Hey, get a really casual, but I I used I call it a conversation prompt. Put it on your iPad. Just a few exhibit nothing with 100 words on it. A few exhibits that actually prompts you to start moving into a few slides that talk about how you’re growing, show how you’re funded, show your program and been fundraising percentage. Because if you have something really easy breezy that you’re just using in a conversation that is such a nice tool used to pivot into what I will call investment level conversations because I find that that like? Okay, we’re talking about this wonderful story about, you know, this family who was homeless, and now they’re not how I pivot into a money conversation. So sometimes you need tools on hand that actually are just a helper and kind of a crutch to you in the conversation that move you into an investment. Little conversation. So when the time’s right, you can say, Could I share with you how we’re planning to grow this year? I love your feedback on this. And to be able to talk a little

[00:42:04.86] spk_2:
bit through these tools are a couple. So these tools are a couple of slides that lead to the conversation. And what out? What else you got? You gotta be gotta be brief.

[00:42:11.80] spk_5:
Yeah. Leave it breezy and on an iPad. Nothing. Nothing like this is not a presentation. It’s a

[00:42:16.57] spk_2:
conversation. I’d

[00:42:18.08] spk_5:
like to use a gift chart. I have all my clients using give charge, and it’s how they’re raising their four figures to five figures and five figures. Six.

[00:42:30.30] spk_2:
This is the gift pyramid that is ubiquitous. Is that what you mean about your chart? Okay. All right. So what? The bottom it says we have our $50 gift and we need 1000 of those or whatever. And then we have our 50 to $250 gifts and we need 700 of those that set or however your top

[00:42:44.70] spk_5:
30 focused on

[00:43:44.99] spk_2:
your top 30 gift. Oh, thank Top 30 gift chart. Okay, I gotta take this last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news that you need to comment on so that you stay relevant in your work you want to. You want to be heard from journalists. You gotta build a relationship. What is sharing wegner, Sherry and I talking about relationships? You build them when you don’t need them, so that when the breaking news happens and you want to comment, it’s more likely than not that they’ll pick up the phone when it’s you. Turn two can help you build those journalists relationships. They’re a turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for get to the next level. I say that, but I’m hesitant, but I don’t want shared commonality thinking we got 25 more minutes, so I’m I’m watching the clock for you.

[00:43:47.70] spk_5:
Thank you.

[00:43:49.84] spk_3:
It’s my job.

[00:43:51.40] spk_5:
Quickly, Quick, quick.

[00:43:52.27] spk_2:
All right. So, um, what’s next? After that, we know what we’ve got. We’re prepared for Russell Station. We’ve got our gift chart we’ve got are a couple of slides. Not a lot. What’s next?

[00:45:29.49] spk_5:
Yes. So now I wanna I wanna push back or I want to go back to this concept, which is this Step five. Because what happens if you are the person who Okay, well, I have nine, but I gotta find the rest of them, right. So in addition to what we just talked about, the next step is, But hold on. I need to find 10 times as many donors, right? I need to be moving into more strategic conversations. So my my my step here would be, Let’s also have a dual strategy running on the side where, um we are also sharing our plans, our programs in our need, with those in the community who are our networkers. There are most connected individuals. And so I cannot if you’re a person who’s trying to level up and trying to really move into mid major level gift activities. I cannot stress enough how much of an educator you need to be to anybody who will listen to you, right. And so sometimes when, um, I’ll say. But I don’t I don’t know anybody who who does who gives major guests. Let’s say that’s fine. Who is the most connected person in the community? You know, who is that person you call when your friend needs a job? That’s why I want you to go talk to, and then they a first they’re gonna be like, Oh, my cash, because this is amazing. I didn’t know you guys were 850. Does our organization. That’s fantastic, eh? You’ve raised their sights, right? So maybe they will become a donor. Right? But then the next step is No. Hey, hey, Chris. I know. I’m sure this was today. Who are two people in your world who would really be interested what I share with you today and who might have the ability to invest at the level that I’ve shared with you, Right? So I want to make sure you are running a solid donor pipeline strategy right along the prospect strategy.

[00:45:48.51] spk_2:
What’s the board’s role. What’s the board’s role in helping build the pipeline?

[00:46:03.83] spk_5:
That’s my next step here, so but I’ll go right into it here, tony. So this is where the board is. This is where it’s key for the board, right? And so I have some specific board advice. But, um, often times it’s a board member who says, Oh, I don’t know. Maybe I don’t have any large donors in my network. I don’t say I don’t believe that Everybody does. We just may not know it. It’s also not a big deal. I just need to talk to your connectors. Then I’m

[00:46:17.62] spk_2:
not gonna

[00:47:40.53] spk_5:
ask them for money. So great. So let’s talk about who are the people in your world who are those movers and shakers and know everybody in the community. And so my my approach with the board and I’m gonna give some advice here, too. A lot of people will come to me in there, excuse for why they are the reason I should excuse. A reason for why they haven’t grown is well. My board doesn’t know they’re supposed to fundraise or I don’t have the right board members on on hand and hear me say I want your board to be engaged and thoughtful and you know, in the pocket with you and helping you do all of this fundraising. Ay dio and I work with that work with toward that all day long. But I’d also say to the executive director or development director who’s listening, Don’t wait on your board. Don’t sit back and you’re I don’t know. I don’t have any major guest because I’m waiting for my board to bring names to the table. You know, you still have to be carrying a great amount of the load, and I wish it weren’t that way. But it’s the truth. And so my biggest device and getting the board engaged, you know, 20. We talked about creating great donor experiences. If you have a board who’s kind of like I don’t I don’t I don’t know how I would introduce you. I don’t know what this looks like. You know, many board members, most most board members, I have never had to sit down and ask somebody for $25,000. They don’t know how to do it,

[00:47:41.75] spk_2:
right? So what do we do?

[00:48:28.47] spk_5:
So model it. I would say, I want I want you soliciting each one of your board members every year. And I want you to create a donor experience cultivation plan for each board member and show them how it’s done. Serve each one of your board members so they can see it. Because when you do this, it will be amazing. Still safe. Oh, well, okay, so that’s like I didn’t I didn’t know that’s what you were going to. D’oh! And so they’re not introducing you to their network because they’re afraid you’re gonna walk in and it’s gonna be a stick up high. Give me $10,000 so you have to model it to them. And when they see that, you actually served that you’ve created this warm and wonderful donor experience. And actually, the solicitation wasn’t that painful and scary all the sudden It’s like, Oh, okay, well, that actually is really well done. You know, maybe I can introduce you to my network, So model it for them because they don’t know how to do it either.

[00:48:42.67] spk_2:
Yeah, they don’t know what it is you’re asking. They just have an image. Imagine somebody

[00:48:43.95] spk_5:
had scary things happened before they don’t want those happen again,

[00:48:46.39] spk_2:
right? Some of your top prospects, maybe board members.

[00:48:49.27] spk_5:
Yes,

[00:48:50.17] spk_2:
of course. I mean, that’s not that’s not presume that they’re mutually exclusive. All right, all right. You wanna make explicit? Okay?

[00:48:57.21] spk_5:
Absolutely. And we want we want to be getting their their best.

[00:49:01.32] spk_2:
I like your idea of if you don’t know anybody who’s ah, potential major donor, who’s who with connectors that you know. Who do you go to when you want to get your child an internship? You know, let’s introduce me, those people, because they’re the They’re the influencers in the community. Okay, what’s next?

[00:49:19.44] spk_5:
Yeah, so here we were. Really? I’m We’re at the left. Step here.

[00:49:23.08] spk_2:
Solicitation. Solicitation.

[00:49:41.06] spk_5:
Here’s Here’s the big thing. So So yeah. So we’re soliciting. I know. I want us moving into solicitations. Um, here’s the thing. Using a gift chart really does help, you know, because I want us to be able to invite them into investing, And we might say things like, You know, I don’t know if you can, but I loved it. Invite you to be one of our top three donors are our top 10 donors.

[00:49:49.32] spk_0:
What do you do I? I got

[00:49:50.27] spk_2:
a I got a question out of the box of that. You’re pointing to the gift chart, and you’re pointing up near the top are at the top, and they say, I’m I’m down here.

[00:50:52.92] spk_5:
That’s okay. That’s okay. So let’s pretend it’s somebody who we have No clue, but we actually don’t know they’re given capacity, so we might be having a very exploratory conversations. You know, Chris, I don’t I don’t know if you can, but I’d love to invite you to be one of our top 30 donors, you know, until the bottom box might be five k. And then my biggest advice, tony, is be quiet. Let them talk, right? Like we don’t have to fill the silence. They’re going to say something like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Certainly could do that. Yeah, well, let me let me talk to my spouse, and we certainly could do that. Or if they say I don’t I don’t know if I’m gonna be the top 30. You know, I certainly could, you know, maybe think about it, but that would be that would be one of our largest guests. That is wonderful information to know and we’re not asking. We’re offering way. Don’t know if they can, but we’d love to invite them to be. They are a donor who’s been giving maybe every year, every year. 555

[00:50:54.70] spk_2:
You

[00:51:21.42] spk_5:
know, I may have a line at that Top 10 and maybe the top 10 is a 75 $100 gift. And I’ll say you’ve been giving so faithfully like we’re so thankful. All these things. No, I don’t know if you can, but would you would you think about being a top 10 donor, Right? So we’ve just asked them to up their gift until my point of all of this is, you can move into a conversation about the gift. No, it doesn’t. It’s not a scary thing.

[00:51:22.36] spk_2:
And it’s

[00:51:22.79] spk_5:
okay if they say it

[00:51:24.08] spk_2:
shouldn’t be.

[00:51:24.56] spk_5:
That could do that yet,

[00:51:52.00] spk_2:
right? Don’t be afraid to talk about the talk about the gift, right? That’s what that’s work. That’s why we’re there, just they say x and you say, Oh, thank you so much. No, no, that, you know, I say six knows and you’re halfway to a Yes. So, you know, keep the conversation going. No, I couldn’t possibly Well, uh, there’s the future, and there’s the need. And, you know, don’t don’t. This is what I could do. Okay. Thank you. You sold yourself out.

[00:51:55.96] spk_5:
Yeah, totally. And here’s one, and I’m watching the clock here to tony. But, like, here’s one that’ll give people. You know, sometimes you’re

[00:52:02.94] spk_2:
so time conscious, Sherry. Okay. Don’t. She’s content. Geez,

[00:52:06.76] spk_5:
now I’m watching

[00:52:08.30] spk_2:
you going, listeners,

[00:52:34.53] spk_5:
you’re asking. I got to get this kid knows I’m like, I gotta say this, Um, if you just asked and they’re not ready to give you a yes or no. Here’s my remember I said, I want you to leave your donors and hold that control. The worst thing you could D’oh. Sometimes with my early Astor’s, I’ll say, Oh, my gosh, You asked. Fantastic. Congratulations. How’d you leave it with? Um they said they’d get back to me, right? Oh, no. The worst thing ever, because it’s like you

[00:52:39.02] spk_2:
by the balls. You said you said earlier. Use your power. You know, you want to be that you want to be following up, not waiting for them,

[00:52:45.29] spk_5:
right? Make sure you’ve said you know what? Totally fine. Let’s look here and I kind of pretending to pick up my phone. Um, you know, are you in town in two, maybe two Fridays? Yeah, the 17. Great. I’ll reach out to you the morning of 17 C. Look, questions. You have to see if you’ve made a decision. We’ll have another conversation about it, Right? What did I just do? It picked up the control against

[00:53:05.79] spk_2:
exactly

[00:53:12.25] spk_5:
so often. It’s like I asked, I shared. I just didn’t hear from him. We didn’t hold the control. Super. Super important?

[00:53:36.95] spk_2:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, you need to. It’s a relationship, but it’s not 100% mutual. You need to You need to keep your control. Absolutely. You need thio because that’s the progress. You know, you need to move this relationship along your earlier relationship, your earlier hypothetical relationship, but, uh, tomans, whoever they were, the hetero company. You know

[00:53:40.01] spk_0:
you have this, Angela, you got to get to this couple. You gotta talk to

[00:53:46.64] spk_2:
these people and move them. And not just once, probably before they make their gift in November. So things need to move along. You can’t rely on other people too, to manage the timetable for you because it doesn’t matter to them. It

[00:53:56.88] spk_0:
matters to you.

[00:54:04.31] spk_2:
These are your needs. You gotta absolutely. You got to keep the control, the power out where you want to define it. Label it. You gotta move the thing along the relationship along.

[00:54:49.51] spk_5:
Yeah, and part of the last step is really you know. Okay, so this this always good planning and we have our tools in hand and we’re ready to do this. But at the end of the day, most fund raising an issue fail When? When the time is not allocated to do this. So even if your top 10 if you think of well, I’m gonna sit with him 3 to 4 times a year, that’s 40 meeting, right? And so if you are not planning out all those meetings all year long, you will not hit them all. You will not. And this is when I get calls in October, with their fiscal years ending in December saying, Oh, no. Oh, no. I’ve only I’ve only brought in 30% of my revenue. And how do I make it up in the last three months of the year? And my answer is it was what you did between January and October like That’s how you would have would have made it up. So you’ve got to move into the discipline and regularity of these activities to pivot up into these larger get

[00:55:11.74] spk_2:
Cherie. We gotta leave it there. It’s perfect. A CZ you said at the end of the day. Yes, you gotta perfectly said, No need to repeat it. Sherry Kwame Taylor Sherry can tell. You’ll find her at kwame taylor dot com And at Sherry. Cute Taylor. Thank you so much for sharing Sherry. One.

[00:55:22.17] spk_5:
Appreciate it.

[00:55:23.06] spk_2:
My pleasure.

[00:55:23.61] spk_5:
Eight weekend

[00:55:26.07] spk_2:
Thank you Next week, Peter Heller, another innovator on keeping the fund inboard fundraising, will dive down into that drill into that bit. Plus, Maria Semple returns. If

[00:55:37.27] spk_0:
you missed any

[00:56:05.80] spk_2:
part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A

[00:56:46.09] spk_0:
creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff, Sam Leibowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. You’re with me next week for not profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for February 21, 2020: Hiring Your Audit Firm & Equitable Compensation

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My Guests:

Yigit Uctum: Hiring Your Audit Firm
When it’s time to change your auditors, what do you look for? And how best to work together? I talk through the relationship with Yigit Uctum, a partner at Wegner CPAs.

 

 

Gene Takagi: Equitable Compensation
Gene TakagiIs your compensation schedule fair? What does that mean and why should you care? Gene Takagi returns for a full discussion. He’s our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group.

 

 

 

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[00:00:14.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week. It’s Debra Elizabeth Finn in Boston, Massachusetts. She shared non profit

[00:00:28.99] spk_2:
radio with her group, Mission based Massachusetts. I’m always grateful to those of you who share the show. If you do, let me know. I will shout you out as

[00:00:38.00] spk_1:
well. Many thanks, Deborah. Thank you so much. Congratulations

[00:00:45.00] spk_2:
on being our listener of the week. I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Roman. Is, um if you poison to me with the idea that you missed today’s

[00:00:49.97] spk_1:
show hiring your audit firm when it’s time to change your auditors, What do you look for? And how do

[00:00:55.96] spk_2:
you best work together? I talked through the relationship with you. Eat each tomb, a partner at wegner-C.P.As

[00:01:09.51] spk_1:
and equitable compensation. Is your compensation schedule fair? What does that mean? And why should you care? Jean Takagi returns for a full discussion.

[00:01:11.77] spk_2:
He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law

[00:01:47.61] spk_1:
group. And he’s in the studio. Authorities take two planned giving relationship stories were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software, Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. I’m very pleased to welcome back to the show and to the studio you coach Doom. He’s a partner at wegner-C.P.As

[00:02:06.41] spk_2:
with over 13 years of experience. He works exclusively with tax exempt organizations. He oversees Wagner’s Form 9 90 nationwide preparation practice and leads their New York City operations. The firm is that wegner-C.P.As dot

[00:02:07.94] spk_1:
com. You know that And at wegner-C.P.As. Welcome back.

[00:02:12.68] spk_3:
Thank you for having your back.

[00:02:13.94] spk_1:
That’s a pleasure. Stand a little closer to the

[00:02:15.72] spk_2:
mike so we can hear you. Yes. There. Thank you.

[00:02:18.34] spk_1:
Um, getting from Madison, Wisconsin.

[00:02:21.16] spk_2:
Thank you. How cold is it? There now is pretty called people.

[00:02:26.03] spk_3:
When I left, it was like like 10 degrees. I don’t know. I don’t pay attention after I leave. Okay.

[00:02:32.36] spk_2:
When it gets below 20 does it matter? And it

[00:02:35.14] spk_3:
doesn’t matter. What

[00:02:35.93] spk_1:
Can you tell that between 10 and zero.

[00:02:38.90] spk_3:
I can You can’t. The marginal difference it is called. It’s

[00:02:42.71] spk_2:
just all called anything

[00:02:45.12] spk_3:
below one of the state f

[00:02:47.84] spk_1:
in cold. Okay, um, so we’re talking about the audit relationship. So first of

[00:02:50.63] spk_2:
all, what? What goes into What are we asking an order for him to do before we get into how to hire them. What is it we’re expecting from an audit?

[00:03:20.94] spk_3:
So, basically from an audit by the professional standards, you expect someone independent to go over your and simple terms like, I’m gonna get technical, go over your accounting records and internal controls, overcome over financial reporting and basic issue. Their opinion based on their all its procedures bedroom, not your financial statements are fairly stated in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles.

[00:03:30.63] spk_1:
Yeah, I know. And

[00:03:31.50] spk_3:
I

[00:03:31.62] spk_2:
don’t have my college accounting class.

[00:03:58.16] spk_3:
Yeah, absolutely. And based on the audit, he also expect some recommendations like they don’t have to give one, but ah, that the relationship is auditors have the expertise working with similar organizations and know the best practices. And if they identify any weaknesses in your systems, they’re also required to report that. But in addition, they also make recommendations as evaluated service.

[00:04:01.79] spk_2:
So it’s much more than just a numerical analysis. Absolutely. You’re talking about going into processes, trains, accountability, etcetera,

[00:04:10.88] spk_3:
right? Absolutely. Yeah. We going to accounting systems, looking at the system’s looking, get who’s involved in certain procedures and what controls are in place and everything. So

[00:04:24.65] spk_2:
meaning board members, senior employees going into those depends

[00:04:27.80] spk_3:
on who were working it, like really small organizations that may be one person organization. Then he would want board the moment as part of the internal controls. If the non profit is large enough, they can have the internal control environment between the organization but typically organizations. Most nonprofits. They’re off a certain small size, and you you want some board government’s involvement in Internal Control says Okay,

[00:05:01.30] spk_2:
and then and then these recommendations. You’re saying that’s based on having done hundreds of audits of similar type organizations. You could make some recommendations, give advice about I could be doing some things better. Absolutely there. I guess they’re okay, but you could be doing things will smarter,

[00:05:14.40] spk_3:
like doing it more efficiently or doing it a little differently and again like that can be some best practice recommendations as well as some recommendations to address certain weaknesses in the internal control system. So that can be two different things.

[00:05:30.04] spk_2:
Okay, so it’s so It’s like including business practices is we’re

[00:06:16.49] spk_3:
losing business practices as well, so we’re not required to his auditors to look at certain things. But people expects us to look at things, even if it’s not part of thought. It se RV makeover some insurance invoices gonna required to make sure that they have enough coverage for certain things. But that’s something that, based on looking at it, such as like external fraud coverage, like looking at the today’s environment. Barry People’s a concert, getting hacked and everything. You may have an insurance policy for cyber security. Let’s say it may cover up to $10,000 with a $5000 deductible. Well, that’s not really very much money, exactly. So if someone, then the may look at that and maybe recommend that you know you may want topped us a little bit by paying just a little in premium. Say another 100,000 premium, you increase that coverage from 110,000 or something like that.

[00:06:29.20] spk_2:
Okay, Okay. So I mean there’s so there’s lots of different areas you can just

[00:06:32.48] spk_3:
a little bit.

[00:06:33.64] spk_1:
Okay. Um, so we have a couple

[00:06:39.89] spk_2:
of minutes before our before our first break? Uhm, why don’t we get into the, uh

[00:06:42.11] spk_1:
oh. I do want to ask

[00:06:43.00] spk_2:
you how long is an audit process that’s based on the size of the farm? Really?

[00:07:00.19] spk_3:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. On the duration depends on how responsive each part iss basically so and so it can very quickly

[00:07:02.05] spk_1:
doesn’t have to be done on site or

[00:07:48.06] spk_3:
it does not have this day and age like out of organizations keep records electronically and it can be them through video conferencing, teleconferences and looking everything online and just document sharing. Yeah, and and absolutely and out off times, man. Dorrit is done on site daughter. They’re sitting in a conference room. Email the client email E Glendale back. So it’s like, you know so. But it’s face to face is good summits depends on preference. A cz Well, so are some people prefer it that pay and there’s advantages and dissidents just off face to face, like onside auditing versus virtual Auditing one is flexibility, but the danger is the order can direct longer if it’s totally virtual. And if both parties will not commit to the timeline. So,

[00:07:53.24] spk_2:
yeah, the timeline and document sharing like responsiveness,

[00:07:57.83] spk_3:
but it does not have to be done on site.

[00:08:08.83] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Cool. Um, all right. So we got another minute or so before before break. And so I So let’s start to get into what we’d be looking for in a firm, and then we’ll go more detail after our parents just want to be looking for

[00:08:16.64] spk_1:
I think

[00:08:48.37] spk_3:
the number one thing, that’s the most important thing. The expertise and experience. You want a firm that is capable off doing the audit. They have experience working with organizations that ah, have your the same needs. You may be operating under a separate federal grant. Let’s stay and on everything is different. Like just because an organization is a non profit, it doesn’t mean they’re doing the same things. They don’t have the same requirements. I think number one thing is to have the expertise toe do the audit. Okay,

[00:09:03.48] spk_2:
so that’s interesting. Like if your revenue stream is different than a similarly sized organization than the order is going to be very different. You’re saying if it’s your old federally funded versus revenue for service is

[00:09:05.10] spk_3:
or purely foundation

[00:09:10.11] spk_2:
foundation. Okay, so the different character of revenue not just don’t base it on they do audits of organizations that have 20 employees. And that’s about what we have, so that

[00:09:20.17] spk_3:
I know it’s all different. Okay,

[00:09:22.83] spk_1:
okay. All right. So let’s take this first break, which you’re a part of because it’s wegner-C.P.As, which I’m grateful for. So wegner-C.P.As, of course. Thank you. I’m saying all time

[00:09:43.53] spk_2:
forgot. Take their CPS way. No, we’re getting a dick. We’re getting detail about what the audit is, but basically, it’s kind of like a dentist. You get an idea of what? An order what wegner-C.P.As firm does for you. I’m typically saying, start your due diligence at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone because that’s how I like to communicate. But it is going to

[00:09:49.38] spk_1:
talk to you because you know, a partner in the firm, cause serious. So what’s that? If I’m picking up the phone

[00:10:08.10] spk_2:
and calling you and saying I looked at your was on the website, you might help us. We need some help with our, uh 9 90 Wait. I feel like we can’t. It’s beyond our capability doing in house anymore. What would that What would that look like? That call look like

[00:10:34.01] spk_3:
that Cole would look like. Basically, I would be asking some questions. Will identify your needs better on Do we have, like, Haman states? Are you registered then? And kind of try to understand what you have kind of try to understand your organization. And I would liketo look at your previous 9 90 kind of to someone else’s and such. And basically that you know what we can do for you. And if it works out, you will start working together. So

[00:10:41.70] spk_1:
Okay, Thank you. Start your

[00:10:42.09] spk_2:
due diligence at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone.

[00:10:45.04] spk_1:
Talk to you. It’s friendly, guy. I mean, he wouldn’t be on the show. I wouldn’t have it back

[00:10:51.13] spk_2:
if it wasn’t that way. So wegner-C.P.As dot com. Okay, let’s go back. Thio.

[00:10:56.35] spk_1:
So now this is a This is gonna

[00:11:01.03] spk_2:
be our audit. Hiring already firm is an

[00:11:01.34] spk_1:
r f p. Typical in this

[00:11:11.66] spk_3:
kind of peace. Typical. Like I would say 80% 90% off the time we receive an R F P and on. Then the process starts after that.

[00:11:15.16] spk_2:
Okay, how do we, as an organ, decide who to send the R. P too?

[00:11:55.88] spk_3:
Basically, um, ask for references, referrals from from somebody that you trust. So usually ah, it can be the board that may be deciding that. And they may be serving in other other organizations, which they may be familiar with. Their audit firms. Like that might be one thing. The other thing is a lot off firms are now using our source accounting firm that dough there today. Today, accounting. And they may. They work with a lot of water firms as well, and they may give you some recommendations based on your size and such. And or you can go Google firms. Yeah, Lam profits in the year, for example, and see who come up and then send our fees that day. So it’s got multiple ways off.

[00:12:13.56] spk_1:
It doesn’t have to

[00:12:16.45] spk_2:
be local, though. I mean, the point was you could do this. Could be done virtually. It

[00:12:19.26] spk_3:
doesn’t have to be a local. No,

[00:12:20.79] spk_1:
but use your networks

[00:12:21.94] spk_2:
absolutely aboard other CEOs, you know, rather CFO’s. You know, if that’s your situation, you know, use your networks. Okay. Um

[00:12:31.08] spk_1:
are there other sample R f p C

[00:12:41.24] spk_2:
o r. I mean, is this stuff on the web like, all crappy are thes. I mean, how do you develop this R p? Basically,

[00:12:52.84] spk_3:
you can start with a template and there’s a lot off them on stone line. You can point some, but I highly encourage people organizations toe really like first determine why you are looking for a change. Like, what is that you did not like with your current relationship and make sure that how you want that relationship change, make sure that you put those criterion the ft so that you’re looking like you kind of identify your needs and what you’re looking for. What’s important to you.

[00:13:13.84] spk_2:
OK, so, like, of turnover bothered you or fee or timetable?

[00:13:20.44] spk_3:
Absolutely. I think timetable is one of the many reasons by organizations Look for a new firm because the day prior firm are the firm that they use are not meeting their timelines.

[00:13:44.48] spk_2:
Okay? Meaning what? Like the organization should How does how does the timeline get get determined that that the firm may not be, er yeah, complying with

[00:14:26.74] spk_3:
to say, um and you’re an organization and you want to present your audit in June, tow the board of directors. Okay, The audit firm somehow cannot meet that deadline or a lot of times thes here. Some complaints from prospects, they say, Okay, our audit is done. Mother 9 90 doesn’t get done for another six months. So that maybe like a I was look at the tax and the audit as one engagement. Okay, it’s part of one relationship and that maybe time spared the audit is done on time, but then maybe the audit firm are the accounting firm has a separate department that does the tax work your 9 90 maybe that gets late. Guess it. Still, it is also, I think, is the point is like, I know what you want and have kind of like try to think about how you want that relationship to look like and put all those as your criteria in therapy. And as questions about have the firm would address those.

[00:14:50.09] spk_2:
What’s another reason besides the number one timing failures? What’s another reason you see people wanting toe change firms,

[00:15:25.64] spk_3:
increasing fees, and the other reason is if you’re a startup organization or some changes are happening, they say your small organizations. But you have growth plans, and the firm we are working with doesn’t have the expertise that you need as you grow so certain times like the small. When you’re small, you start with one firm. As you get bigger, your niece change and your current form is not able to meet them. And the other part might be responsiveness like you may not. You may be contacting your audit firm, and they don’t get back to you for weeks or, like the relationship kind off way,

[00:15:57.14] spk_2:
will feel that crappy customer service. Right? You are a vendor, you’re providing service. I don’t expect an email back in five minutes, but I think within 24 hours somebody should get back. Even if it’s this is a really busy day, you know? Can we talk later in the week or something? Give me something you’re inviting service something for

[00:16:07.53] spk_3:
the other reason is errors like sometimes errors are made and they don’t get found out until later. And once that’s why not. You know they may wanna change firms because then your expertise is being questioned.

[00:16:16.15] spk_2:
Yeah, How do? How do audit errors get found? I mean, it’s the audit. That’s just be finding errors. How do you find errors in your audit?

[00:16:32.34] spk_3:
Basically, maybe the audits firm missed procedure or Mr An Error that was present in the financial statements, Baby, they didn’t do enough. That’s thing. Maybe something may happen. I mean, that can’t be errors. How

[00:16:35.34] spk_2:
do you just how does the organization discovered the error

[00:16:38.18] spk_1:
It’s got me

[00:16:48.38] spk_3:
discovers in to waste. One is internally. Someone looks at it in a different from a different perspective, or something else comes up, they need to go back. And something doesn’t make sense. For example, today and then you go back and look at previous documents and find out that all this should have been treated differently, for example, and the audit firm did not catch it. Okay,

[00:17:05.89] spk_1:
okay. I’m guessing it’s probably

[00:17:07.13] spk_2:
not a board that often, you know, in in its review of the audit, I don’t see your average board member finding the mistakes in the audit.

[00:17:15.28] spk_4:
Typically not. They

[00:17:17.80] spk_1:
may

[00:17:37.69] spk_3:
find errors in maybe some narrative descriptions and such, but sometimes they do like some some board members are financial is everyday, be sits on the boards. They look at all the financials and they may be finding errors. But those errors are found before the artist gets issued, but still an error. So that kind of like whenever there’s an area that auditor didn’t catch, kindof like damages the credibility.

[00:17:46.96] spk_2:
Right? You’ve submitted it to the board as final. Okay.

[00:17:51.11] spk_1:
All right. So yeah, I mean, some

[00:17:52.95] spk_2:
organizations even have an order committee. Those are bigger non profit maps. Probably the universities, hospitals or whatever. Just a bigger. So they have no other committees, or presumably, yes. Then there’s expertise in that committee to scrutinize

[00:18:11.52] spk_3:
supposedly, hopefully rebuttable presumption in the year. For example, if you are required to have an audit your also required in order to comedy.

[00:18:18.78] spk_1:
Is that right? New York, you have to have an order

[00:18:20.31] spk_3:
committee will have toe.

[00:18:21.25] spk_2:
Okay. And what’s the threshold for an audit in New York? Current

[00:18:28.73] spk_3:
$750,000 in total revenue, assuming you have more than $25,000 in donations from New York.

[00:18:34.88] spk_2:
Okay, 25,000 in donations from New York and and 750,000 in total revenue

[00:18:40.80] spk_3:
or more yet

[00:18:42.15] spk_2:
born What? Right then That’s the trigger for in order to New York State. Yes, And I’m sure it varies widely across the States.

[00:18:48.65] spk_3:
It does. It does not. Every not every state has an audit committee requirement. For example, California has it, but their trash Holt is two million depends. And it’s also all its committed Rules are different in every state. Ho can be on the committee what they have to do. Everything is different. So

[00:19:06.82] spk_2:
you’ll be gratified to know that that Gene Takagi is in background nodding when you said the $2 million.

[00:19:15.74] spk_3:
That’s good to hear. I was right. You’ve indicated? Yeah,

[00:19:19.33] spk_2:
because I certainly don’t have the expertise. Not this question. Um

[00:19:21.34] spk_1:
okay, s so anything else you want to say

[00:19:23.71] spk_2:
about the therapy process before we get to evaluating the proposals that come in?

[00:19:30.86] spk_1:
Um, I think

[00:19:32.96] spk_3:
I think that’s pretty much it again. Like that said yes, you’re a portrait. It toe make

[00:19:37.24] spk_1:
it

[00:19:37.38] spk_3:
like a visual ist like, what do you wish tohave in your audit relationship and kind of go with that?

[00:19:44.16] spk_2:
Okay. All right. So now you get these, Uh, I guess you get what’s a reasonable. Number 44 proposals back or

[00:19:51.03] spk_1:
usually I

[00:20:13.75] spk_3:
see an average off three threes. The most common sometimes Thio. Sometimes more than that. I’ve seen up as much as 10. Yeah. Yeah. So they kind of issue for will not respond And something like that sometimes. Like something like when you center FB you asked, like, Are you going to respond or not? You know, So that’s the wrong questions that gets asked something. So

[00:20:20.75] spk_2:
and then if the firm doesn’t even respond to that

[00:20:23.01] spk_3:
than their low life Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:37.52] spk_2:
Don’t never refer them again. Exact. They don’t respond to your Are you going to respond to our f B question? Okay. All right. So you got you got your 3 to 4 proposals back. What are we doing now? I was looking for I would

[00:21:32.03] spk_3:
actually look for the, um, the overall response process like, are they? How did they respond to your initial when you sent direct appeals? Say, usually, now they come in e mails like, how are they responding to their art? A timely. And when you make appointments, are they late? Are they not late? Like in this stage, like a proposal stage if they’re not giving you the attention. Yeah, on. Very That’s a very bad sign off the overall relationship. I think the first impression, maybe last impression tow the time. So it’s really important to see how they handle things and always look for writing. What’s important relationship is not never make errors. But once you make an error, how do you recover from that? And I think it’s really important as well. And during the process, I think initially they take the time toe, ask us questions and today, or are you just sending like a blanket proposal without even

[00:21:47.09] spk_1:
That’s like asking a couple questions

[00:22:00.68] spk_2:
about what the perp, the R F P, says. That’s a good That’s a good sign. I mean, the firm is actually scrutinizing it. Paying close attention wants to be responsive to exactly what you’re asking. But they’re not sure exactly what you’re looking for, but also, but

[00:22:39.03] spk_3:
also basically see if they’re trying to identify your knees. I mean, you can put so much in writing in the Riviera. Peas are usually standards, and there’s so much else goes on at the firm. Are they trying to like understand? You’re really needs and how they can add value. Are they asking questions? So usually photography. You sent your most recent order to report and your 9 90 and ah, nde sometimes, like, put some description off what organization looks like now. But I think, um, the audit firm should be interested in the organization enough to ask some more questions on Try to learn more, as opposed to just

[00:22:48.29] spk_2:
just giving back the RP. But yeah, by the deadline,

[00:22:50.92] spk_3:
you have just told me in the other budgets for to me in the other speech church this much this is your fetus is the proposal versus taking the time to talk to them and asking questions and see

[00:23:04.96] spk_1:
OK, some engagement, like applying standard a common sense. You

[00:23:33.10] spk_2:
know, if you’re trying to hire a contractor for your home on dhe here, she’s not getting back to you, you know, at the at getting the business stage. That’s a bad sign, you know, or if they don’t seem to be listening to you about what it is you want to do. You know, you’re asking for their ideas and they don’t come back with ideas. They just come back with a fee you know the same. Same as same as hiring a vendor for your your audits facility. No, I haven’t sense, for God’s sake.

[00:24:09.96] spk_3:
The other thing I would look at as have they addressed all your points in the F B. Have they read the appear? Are you getting like a blanket proposal? I think that’s really important to you. And the hurting I would look at would be like, How is the presentation off the proposal like Is that looking sloppy? Are their errors like the spacing looks, beard or just aesthetics off the off? The proposal and errors in it like spelling errors, grammar errors like this? It’s free off errors. I think it’s important. Yeah, spokes. That looks like it’s somebody reviewing them before you send it to you.

[00:24:19.00] spk_1:
Um, what about a presentation? Is that is that typical

[00:24:21.84] spk_2:
toe have? Ah, maybe you narrow it down from 4 to 2 and you want them both to make a presentation to the board. Is that is that an unreasonable? That’s not

[00:25:16.25] spk_3:
unreasonable, And but that does not happen too often than the smaller organizations. Probably your listener base probably doesn’t happen. The presentations doesn’t happen that way. what does happen, though They, uh, there’s like a conference call the Save it with the treasure or the audit committee chair at the accountant or someone just follows up. Let’s say they I don’t. You get three and you eliminate Bond. Now you have the two, and you just have a called them or a meeting with them, but it doesn’t typically become like a formal presentation. But that does happen, though that’s not unusual to ask. Or definitely, I would encourage. That depends on how much time you want to spend, too.

[00:25:21.49] spk_2:
Okay, and then whether you want to get your board involved,

[00:25:24.17] spk_3:
I mean, it’s really hard to get people together. And Monroe

[00:25:28.00] spk_2:
suffered rumors to that effect about how difficult that can be. Um,

[00:25:33.64] spk_1:
you refer to something

[00:25:34.59] spk_2:
called AA Peer Review report on non ordered firms. What is that?

[00:26:23.45] spk_3:
Basically ah, every C p. A firm that does attestation engagements like audits reveals they need to go through a peer review every three years. Peer review is another C p. A firm basically comes in, doesn’t audit off your order to brag or like attestation practice, so it’s not only artistic look at reviews, they look at complications. They look at audits and just to see your following to professional standards and look at the quality off the work. And if you’re not doing good for Earth than you get findings just like you give findings. Oh, non profit organization in your artists. Yeah, the peer review C p a. Firm does the same thing for you. There’s, like levels or findings and such. But typically, I would look for I would definitely request that period the report. Even if there’s findings, you need to know what they are and have the firm responded to them.

[00:26:37.17] spk_2:
Okay, so it’s not something that’s public, but you can ask for it from the firm’s you’re considering.

[00:26:41.85] spk_3:
I I believe it’s public, too. You can go to the I. C. P s website and look for it. I’m pretty sure the American Institute of Certified Public Contents Yep. And find

[00:26:52.87] spk_2:
all the peer review reports for all

[00:26:54.24] spk_3:
the servi. They should be all day. Okay, Okay. But I would just ask for it in the part off the f B and they should put in the proposal.

[00:27:05.99] spk_2:
Okay, We have just about a minute left. Okay, So how about getting started. What? You’re like a number one or two. Top advice for for getting this new relationship off the ground,

[00:27:49.51] spk_3:
I would say, Set the expectations specialty timelines and make sure everyone is on the same page. So I think the dissatisfactions happens when there’s an expectation gap this one person is thinking it’s gonna have on this bay and the other one just don’t assume, just confirm and just have a meeting with thought it firm and come up. It agreed upon timeline. I think it’s really important, and it will work sport they like. If the organization still not provide the information, the auditors cannot do the work. So what we do in every audit, the established time lines, we start with men, they need order to be done by. And then we sent them the list and they can tell us when they can be ready. And then we’ll find time between when they can hear them and they need it done. I kind of like established dead pay,

[00:28:04.93] spk_2:
working backwards from when they

[00:28:06.08] spk_3:
need exact Exactly. So it just always keep the end in mind. Okay,

[00:28:15.78] spk_2:
let’s wrap it up there. Thank you. Very much you do. Partner wegner-C.P.As. The firm is wegner-C.P.As dot

[00:28:17.12] spk_1:
com and at wegner-C.P.As Thanks for coming back to the show and studio. Pleasure.

[00:28:23.62] spk_2:
Having a big thank you You okay? Cracking like a 14 year old, uh,

[00:28:29.10] spk_1:
need to take a break. Wegner. No cook about software. So

[00:28:30.99] spk_2:
what’s all the kinds of Whitney wegner wegner on the head?

[00:28:33.47] spk_1:
Cook a Mountain software is this one quote. We’ve been very happy

[00:28:36.64] spk_2:
with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they’re always there to help. Walk me through it and

[00:28:42.74] spk_1:
quote that Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. Cougar Mountain

[00:28:46.63] spk_2:
has a free 60 day trial, which you’ll find on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant.

[00:29:17.39] spk_1:
Martin. Let’s do our live love. Ah, and it goes out. Thio Tip of Florida Washington D. C oh, cool Washington Not too often to Washington. Tucson, Arizona, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York, Ontario, Calif. Ontario, Canada. Um, Seattle, Washington. Awesome. Upper West Norcross, Georgia South east of it Going abroad Moscow, Russia Thank you for being with us. Live love out to Moscow, Seoul, South Korea On your jasio consomme. Nita Live love out there. Tehran, Iran Also, Tehran’s been with us a couple times getting turning it, Theo loyal,

[00:29:41.74] spk_2:
live listeners. So the live love goes out and the pleasantries go out to the podcast audience. That’s our over 13,000 listeners on your

[00:29:45.55] spk_1:
own device, your own timetable, whatever fits into your life. I’m

[00:29:45.79] spk_2:
glad that it does. Thank you very much. Pleasantries to our podcast listeners.

[00:29:53.49] spk_1:
Time for tony Steak, too. Planned giving relationship stories

[00:29:55.60] spk_2:
is the current video that you will find a tony-martignetti dot com because when I did

[00:30:14.64] spk_1:
plan giving relationships, I left. The story’s out. Relationships are with people, and I left the people out of the first video. I talked about how the relationship gets started, the value of long term relationships to your organization and to you personally. And then I left out all the examples, so that’s that’s not I mean, it’s good as far as it goes, but it’s like half the story. If you can talk about relationships, how about some examples? So

[00:30:56.15] spk_2:
in plan giving relationships to the stories I give you some stories of, um, Eleanor and, uh, Evelyn and Barbara and James the before I tell stories about and, uh, you know I’m sure there have been hundreds. Well, there’s definitely 100. But, you know, some people are more memorable, memorable than others. And those are the four that came to mind first. So some touching stories in that video, which you’ll find at tony-martignetti dot com

[00:31:07.05] spk_1:
Now what a pleasure to welcome to the studio. Jean Takagi. He’s here in the studio in New York City. He’s the managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits

[00:31:15.33] spk_2:
the wildly popular non profit law blogged dot

[00:31:24.34] spk_1:
com. He’s the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non profit lawyer. He’s at G Tack. He’s Jean Jean, the law machine. Welcome to the studio, Gene. Too cocky. This is awesome. Done. It absolutely is. It’s 10 years since your first appearance on the show,

[00:31:35.23] spk_2:
and you’ve been a contributor for, like, nine and

[00:31:41.43] spk_1:
1/2 years or something. And here you are in the studio. I love it. Absolutely love it. Thanks so much. I’m so glad it worked out.

[00:31:43.37] spk_4:
I’m so happy to be here. It’s actually my first time in any studios, so it’s Ah, it’s a pleasure,

[00:31:49.80] spk_1:
Your life to your life up to this moment has brought you here. It’s all culminated here. This is the pinnacle. It’s all downhill from here.

[00:31:56.06] spk_4:
Mom can be proud.

[00:31:58.08] spk_1:
Sorry. Going down from here. Now, Um, this is

[00:32:00.83] spk_2:
wonderful. Really Is very, very good to see you. Um,

[00:32:04.67] spk_1:
So, um, this is a This is a little tough, touchy topic. We, uh you and I had a touchy topic

[00:32:10.01] spk_2:
when we talked about diversity equity and inclusion. Um,

[00:32:19.21] spk_1:
this one is, Ah, equitable compensation. Uh, you know, you you frame it for us. You please do. I think we

[00:32:39.13] spk_4:
could look at it in so many different dimensions. Tony mean one is is Do we pay? Everybody is Lois. Salary is absolutely possible, so we can try to serve as many people as possible. And that’s one level one level is we have this huge pay gap between men and women. What are we doing about that? There’s also gaps based on race on and other protected class issues as well. And sometimes it’s not just the legal problem.

[00:32:49.42] spk_2:
It’s not just the protected classes,

[00:32:57.34] spk_4:
right? It legally protected. Yeah, it’s just why are we paying this person differently from this person and is that institutionalized. Is that just personal discretion? Who are the decision makers there? Is there so many levels to this? But I agree can be a very controversial area,

[00:33:30.36] spk_2:
controversial and insightful. These are hard questions, you know? What should the gap be between the highest paid person in the organization and the lowest paid person organization? What should that ratio look like? And how do we justify it? Um and yeah, I I just I think I mentioned it, but I want to make drive home the point that we’re not just talking about classes that are legally protected.

[00:33:32.58] spk_4:
Yeah, I think we go go beyond that. And I think what you said about the highest paid to the lowest paid gap is really interesting. I think for CEOs it’s close to 285 to 1.

[00:33:44.60] spk_1:
Is that average non profits

[00:33:48.15] spk_4:
for for profit companies, non profit? It’s probably better. I don’t know if there’s been a study done on that, Um, but California is considering, Ah bill. Now that says, if your gap is more than 300 to 1, highest paid the lowest paid, typically the CEO versus sort of the average line worker We’re gonna increase your tax anywhere from like 2 to 6% on that. So it’s interesting to see now that the lock take over and say, We don’t like these pay imbalances and this is what we’re going to do about it,

[00:34:23.72] spk_1:
Yeah. How did Attorney practicing in California, How do you feel

[00:34:24.23] spk_2:
about the level of regulation in California? Do

[00:34:30.80] spk_1:
you feel it? You feel it’s burdensome? Or do you? I’m sure it’s. I’m sure you feel it’s right headed, but do you feel it’s excessive sometimes, or or not?

[00:34:37.30] spk_2:
Just like it’s the role of state government Thio make things fair and equitable for everybody.

[00:34:44.29] spk_4:
It’s a tricky question. I

[00:34:45.56] spk_1:
think some of

[00:35:30.68] spk_4:
the intent is is right. So the intent of the A G on the attorney general, typically the charity regulator in California, is to protect donors protect charitable dollars to ensure that they’re not being misused. But the problem can be is when some decisions are made about how regulations should be shaped or what type of bills the E A. G should sponsor or find a sponsor for, um, are they taking a few isolated, high profile problems in creating a solution for that and then that is, in effect creating a huge burden for everybody else who’s never done anything wrong. And what are the pros and cons when you look at its sector wide? And I think they don’t have the expertise or the people power to be able to make those decisions on their own Now, to their credit, they’ve been good about reaching out. We’ve actually sort of consulted with the A G from time to time in working discussion groups about how laws might impact the broader sector. But oftentimes, big corporations are in there here more often than the small Guy

[00:36:07.66] spk_2:
G is reaching out to you right now. They have lobbyists and professionals. Alright, alright, just I’ve wondered about that because it’s an activist state and a lot of states follow the California leader. At least look to see what California’s doing in lots of different lots of different areas. Environment, non profits of its wide

[00:36:10.71] spk_4:
Yeah, well should should add, though, that the non profit activists have actually been very good about this as well. In part, it partly why, when you eat was talking about the audit threshold in New York being 750,000. I think in California’s two million, because the non profit said That’s too low. It’s gonna be too expensive to have audits at that level. So we actually we’re more lenient on that front on the audit.

[00:36:36.18] spk_1:
Okay? All right. So, yeah, it’s not always stringent.

[00:36:46.03] spk_2:
CE stringency greater stringency. But it’s, you know, sort of recognized as, ah, highly legislated ST Ah, highly regulated state.

[00:36:49.07] spk_4:
I think that’s fair to say, and it makes it all the more important for nonprofits to actually speak up. Make sure that their legislators on dear regulatory bodies know what they want. Really important.

[00:37:03.12] spk_1:
So we’re talking about the

[00:37:29.82] spk_2:
compensation way, said it briefly, But again, it merits a little more attention. We’re talking about going beyond what the laws call for me. We have the Americans with disability act. We have the Civil Rights Act of 1964. We have other law bodies of law that govern compensation. But we’re looking as this more at is ah, as a just an equitable ethical moral issue.

[00:37:30.52] spk_1:
Yeah, and even if

[00:37:31.31] spk_4:
it doesn’t violate the law because I’m a lawyer, I always have to say

[00:37:34.44] spk_1:
Well, the law plays

[00:37:35.38] spk_4:
a part because even if you win a lawsuit when there’s an employee claim, just a have a lawsuit against you is incredibly demoralizing. It looks bad to your stakeholders, internal and external. So even if you’re lawfully doing everything right, if you’re ethically having some challenges or your stakeholders stopped believing in, you don’t believe that you’re you’re living into your values. You’ve got much, much bigger problems and just legal ones.

[00:38:03.01] spk_1:
Yeah, you’re trying to do social change,

[00:38:04.55] spk_2:
work social good. But your own organization is unfairly compensated that the salaries are out of whack in your own organization. But you’re trying to improve conditions for the porters or

[00:38:17.14] spk_1:
even if not, if it saves the environment. You’re trying

[00:38:19.23] spk_2:
to do social change, work and improve the state of the world. But your own organization is not a model for that.

[00:38:40.26] spk_4:
That and you can imagine. This gets really controversial when we talk about minimum wage and say, Well, we’re a social service organization that serves low income communities. We’ve got to pay minimum wage for workers. But in a city like New York City or San Francisco, that means they can’t even afford to live in the city right Now I’ve got to commute from the suburbs. And is that really equitable to your staff? Is that what you want to display to everybody else supporting you?

[00:38:50.72] spk_1:
You have this poverty myth, right? There are a lot of

[00:39:16.52] spk_2:
assumptions underlying what we get, where what we’re talking about the inequity on and one of them and then they get deeper. But one of them is this poverty myth that we’re doing social change, work and improving the world. And so, you know, that should be gratifying enough to you. So you get a 40% lower salary than someone doing comparable work. I don’t know another organization or because we feel we feel way can’t afford to pay you more or you get you get a discount from the for profit sector because you’re doing social good work. And that should be gratifying to you. And that has value. So we pay you less.

[00:39:31.73] spk_4:
And it’s really sad to say that actually, some employers, some non profit employers, see that as a legitimate screen that we are going to pay lower than we even can in order to find the most altruistic people possible. I don’t like that kind of idea, but you’ve heard

[00:39:47.22] spk_1:
that articulated.

[00:39:55.47] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, So to find the most altruistic people we’re gonna we’re gonna pay the least. So we’re gonna

[00:40:03.71] spk_1:
get what you pay for, you know? And And what kind of what kind of commitment or you’re getting out of workers who know that there being paid a bottom feeder salary?

[00:40:06.41] spk_4:
Yeah, again, something I strongly disagree with. But that thinking is still still out there.

[00:40:20.07] spk_2:
Okay, I wouldn’t have thought that it would be articulated, but you’ve heard it. A CZ. A theory of recruitment.

[00:40:21.88] spk_4:
Yeah, you’ll hear it in research studies done where they do surveys of organizations, and they explain their compensation systems and you’ll see what some of the rational czar and it pops up.

[00:40:35.01] spk_2:
Okay. All right. We got a couple minutes before break.

[00:40:36.25] spk_1:
Let’s talk about some

[00:40:36.82] spk_2:
of these other cultural assumptions that are underlying cause

[00:40:39.40] spk_1:
this is

[00:41:11.45] spk_2:
where it gets, you know, kind of ah gets unfair. Um, the professional degrees, um, immediately convey or no are automatically convey a value to the organization. So somebody who’s an MBA or an attorney or a c p a. No. Irrespective of whether the professional designation enhances the value. Literally, really. But just way value that over way immediately imply a value to that, even if the job doesn’t require that kind of skill or that kind of professional education.

[00:41:19.15] spk_4:
Yeah, and not to knock professional education.

[00:41:22.54] spk_1:
I got one. You’ve got one? Yeah,

[00:41:24.66] spk_4:
it’s great. But, um, life experience can sometimes be much more valuable or experienced in the job sort of characteristics and duties itself could be more more valuable than professional response are some sorry professional experience in an unrelated field. But so many organizations use education is kind of a factor of where they’re going to set their pay, and they set educational standards that they want when it doesn’t seem applicable to what the job requires. And we see organizations in the four profit world actually leave that thinking, especially in the tech industry, right? They don’t care if you have a graduate degree from Stanford, if you’ve got a bunch of coding experience that’s directly relevant to what they’re creating at the moment. So I think more non profit have got to get away from that thinking that somehow an educational degree in whatever is necessarily going to be something that makes the person more valuable to them,

[00:42:54.49] spk_2:
then the network life experience. Correct. Okay. Okay, um, the, uh the belief that, um, productivity or output is more important than, um the relationship building and how you’re making people feel in the organization and and outside the organization to know, producing paper reports and Versace the ah, the feelings toward the organization that you’re you’re engendering through your work.

[00:43:06.08] spk_4:
Yeah, I think that’s also another danger. Where there’s in the thinking of professionalizing the sector, we’re all about metrics, right? We need to get metrics that we have to get back to our funders to show that we’re creating value. So all of a sudden the employees are incentivized to create better metrics on that may be at the expense of developing longer term relationships. I will actually move the mission forward Maur in the long run than it will in the short run. So we get caught up in the whole same problem that Fortune five hundred’s get caught up in satisfying shareholder spirit. Immediate short term returns, not thinking aboutthe long game. So I think that that is an issue

[00:43:40.56] spk_2:
being too short term thinking for the next board meeting what what our numbers look like for this quarter versus long term value.

[00:43:46.95] spk_4:
Right? Long term value. Also, employee retention being part of that long term value and the value that that having employees stay with you and doing their work, feeling that that sense of pride in what they’re doing, an accomplishment could be so much more valuable than serving an extra 5% meals. In Week three,

[00:44:24.77] spk_2:
we just replayed Adrian, sergeant on relationship fundraising for just last week for a valve on the Valentine’s Day show February 14th and he talked a lot. Now this is just devote to fundraising and where you and I are talking broader. But as it relates to fund raising too many organizations ignoring the lifetime value of a donor, how do you make your donors feel over the long term versus did you get? Did you get a 20% increase in their annual gift this year?

[00:44:36.39] spk_4:
Yeah, and so what do you mean organizational level? And what are you telling your employees? If you say no, you should try to get as much as he can. Now, don’t worry about the long term value of the donor relationships that don’t spend extra time with them. You can hit more people. That’s the wrong message.

[00:44:50.56] spk_2:
Get the car last break. Ever wonder why some nonprofits are always mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build

[00:45:02.52] spk_1:
relationship. We’re talking about relationships again. I mean, it’s it’s pervasive relationships, Just like last week again, they worked to build relationships with journalists who mattered

[00:45:21.29] spk_2:
to them so that when you pick up when you make a call or you send an email, the journalist replies, That’s because of a relationship. A preexisting relationship. Turn two can help you do that. Their former journalists, including at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They will help you build meaningful media relationships that can lead to great coverage there. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got

[00:45:29.38] spk_1:
butt loads more

[00:45:29.86] spk_2:
time for equitable compensation with Jean Takagi in the

[00:45:36.93] spk_1:
studio. Um, where do you want

[00:45:37.58] spk_2:
to go from here? Uh,

[00:45:44.76] spk_1:
any any other cultural assumptions that annoy the hell out of you? Well,

[00:47:18.32] spk_4:
I I think generally speaking, we think we may be as employers giving people benefits when we say, Hey, we’re gonna give you a plus, you know, added match matching contribution to your +401 K plan, for example. But we may not take into account. A lot of our employees have their own financial issues and may not be able to contribute to +41 K plans, so they don’t get that benefit of all of the match, right? So again, equitable considerations would say, Well, maybe we should open up this benefit so that everybody can access to it has access to it. So maybe it gets put into a flexible spending accounts so they can take care of their elder parents, and not just to their 401 K. Or maybe we give them the cash so they couldn’t pay off a student loan. So things like benefits have a place in this. The other cultural assumptions. To make it, we have to figure out more. And I think maybe the biggest issue for the pay gap on the gender basis, maybe letting people figure out where and when they can work and don’t live on to the assumptions that you have to provide face time. It has to be in the office always because so many people who are the primary child givers who are in the workforce that’s where the pay gap gets hit really, really hard. And that’s where women, who once they once they have child Children and decide that they’re going to be the primary caregiver, which is most of the time relative to the man. You know, that’s That’s where they never recover

[00:47:28.33] spk_2:
their career. Yeah, it’s a downward trajectory for their career. For what, 18 years or something? Conceivably. Okay,

[00:47:28.90] spk_1:
another thes. They’re all

[00:47:30.66] spk_2:
good issues for a conversation in the

[00:47:32.72] spk_1:
office conversation with board. Another one is

[00:47:37.57] spk_2:
the the how percentage increases in in salary perpetuate the gap because you’re giving everybody a percentage of the high or low that they’ve

[00:47:48.78] spk_1:
already got. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not, uh, quill a breaking that a word equalizing, not equalizing. You’re just continuing

[00:47:56.74] spk_2:
the the disparity through percentage, you know, annual percentage increases.

[00:48:30.73] spk_4:
Yeah, and I think a payout. It is probably something that every organization should do and actually just ask themselves. How did we determine what the pay rates are for each of these positions? Ah, and is it equitable? Not just top to bottom, but across, you know. Are we paying one person for the same position so much more than another position, another person, even though the other person might actually be doing better work just because they had more of an educational background. So all of those things need to be looked at? Questioned, I think, tracked. So you’re if you’re gonna make these decisions in the future that are more equitable, you have to be able to explain what factors you’re looking at in order to change somebody’s compensation. And why that and how that’s applied is it applied evenly and doesn’t explain why there’s a disparity now in pay between two different people or three different people who occupy the same position.

[00:48:56.37] spk_2:
Um, you can create in your organization a pay equity team.

[00:49:04.22] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s yeah, I’m on the board of an organization called Compass Point in San Francisco.

[00:49:07.61] spk_2:
In a point to that article shortly

[00:49:54.01] spk_4:
Terrific and, yeah, having an removing the decision making from just one executive director, but who might set the caps just to make sure that there’s no overcompensation involved in that the budget is being complied with. But having an equity panel within the organization made up of peers, um, looking at self evaluations and trying to determine what the compensation rates should be within again. A permitted range. Think that’s a really great form of distributed leadership where you’re giving more power to your team, um, and letting them decide what the compensation rates can be now. There were definitely some cons to that issue as well. With more responsibility, there’s gonna be more criticism. But we found out that that it can work really, really well. And people sometimes are actually more conservative about what they want to give than the executive director. And then just having a conversation about that, um, can can be very helpful. But it’s ah, it’s a really interesting a strategy to employ for some nonprofits who have reached that level of, ah, evolution, if you will, in inequity considerations.

[00:50:24.40] spk_2:
Compass point, um, walks through. I think it’s the interim executive director wrote The Post’s Walks through there. I guess it was a three year process. Was it a three year process there of evaluating and adjusting pay throughout the organization, I think, was a two or three year process. It’s

[00:51:15.93] spk_4:
actually been ongoing since 2016 which is really when it started, and it’s still it’s still an ongoing and sometimes a painful process of making things more equitable as you raised the issues and surface them there. You know there’s some pains. You find out some inequities of the past and you try to correct them. And some people are happy about that. Some people aren’t on and you know, the intersectionality of different ah issues if you well, it’s not just gender. It’s not just ages, not just race. There’s so many issues to think about in determining whether compensation is unfair or fair. Andi can be interpreted in different ways, so it is a challenge. But having a team there to help decide this instead of one person makes

[00:52:26.44] spk_2:
a huge difference, also empowering as well. And you know it defeats this myth that we can’t talk about pay at work because everybody’s pay is now known to the to the, uh, to the Pay Equity committee, the team that you’ve just created. So we are talking about it. I want to point people to the this article. It’s it’s actually two different block posts at Compass Point dot or GE on their blogged. It’s called reimagining compensation. It’s time to stop building inequities in the past from the past port. Wanting to Andre is very open about the difficulties that they went through and some people got very large increases. And she alludes to even there, being some decreases over time in salary like stage decreases, Thio make things fair and equitable. It’s quite a process we talked about. Yeah, and I

[00:52:49.76] spk_4:
think you know that’s a team decision. People have to look at this from a state law perspective as well. And so you have to be careful. Not Thio, through mandatory action, decreased one person’s salary to raise another. You have to be careful about that. So we had the luxury of having some change capital because the foundation was really supportive of what we did. And so here’s a big shout out to foundations for for unrestricted support, it really can do great things for for creating equity within an organization.

[00:53:03.75] spk_1:
Um, let’s talk some

[00:53:04.64] spk_2:
about, uh, well, the board. The board has a role here, too.

[00:53:22.97] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I’m still even when we talk about distributed leadership, which I mentioned before, the board still sets the tone at the top. Um, and I think it’s really incumbent upon the board to actually set the values of the organization. So it makes sense that not only are organizations acting to further the mission, but they’ve got to do it in a way that furthers their values as well.

[00:53:38.25] spk_2:
A cz part of their oversight on

[00:53:43.34] spk_1:
and really they’re there. Yeah, their responsibility to

[00:53:44.69] spk_2:
the organization. I’m taking it out of the fiduciary capacity and just making it, Ah, moral obligation that they have to the organization.

[00:54:09.96] spk_4:
Yeah. It’s not just about looking at the financials and saying, Can we survive another year? It’s It’s about creating the relationships, as you said, to make this the sustainable organization that lives its values and furthers its mission for a number of years so it can really actually drive through what they’re trying to do.

[00:54:11.29] spk_2:
Okay, we have about another minute or so before we gotta wrap. So, what would you like to whatever not talked about that? You want to say what?

[00:54:20.07] spk_4:
Um well, they’re a couple things, so I’m gonna leave the parking tax issue aside, then.

[00:54:26.26] spk_1:
Oh, I forgot. The host is so lackluster. This show it’s unbelievable. I don’t know why people listen. The hostess so crummy. Um, yeah, the all right next time we’ll get that next time. This is just about him. Report. God the hostess

[00:55:26.85] spk_4:
So crummy. Um, so I guess along the lines here some tips, maybe of creating more of an equity based compensation system within an organization. And I think, first audit, audit the organization. Try to figure out why you’re paying a tw what level? I have a board level awareness of what’s going on. I’m create a pay equity panel numb within your staff levels. Um, and take a look at where the disparities happen. Most often are the book benefits that I told you about, like the 401 K, but also in bonuses on dhe. We find that our studies have found that that bonus is often goto white men at the much different level than persons of color, especially women who are persons of color.

[00:55:34.29] spk_2:
All right, Thank you, Jean. Thank you very much. Opening up this topics. He’s managing attorney of neo, the non profit exempt organizations Law group. You’ll find him at G Tack and today you’ll find him in the studio in New York City. So glad to have your gene. What a pleasure.

[00:55:44.66] spk_4:
Thanks so much tony and great

[00:55:50.82] spk_1:
to see you, Sam. Yes. Next week. Get to the next

[00:55:52.47] spk_2:
level with Sherry Kwame Taylor. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

[00:57:01.32] spk_1:
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