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Nonprofit Radio for October 24, 2022: Make Friends

 

Dr. Marisa G. FrancoMake Friends

Dr. Marisa G. Franco helps you start and grow friendships, so you can enjoy rich, valuable, fun friendships now and throughout your life. She’s a psychologist, professor and author of the book, “Platonic,” a New York Times bestseller.

 

 

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[00:01:56.93] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of de extroversion if I saw that you missed this week’s show make friends. Dr marisa G franco helps you start and grow friendships so you can enjoy rich, valuable fun friendships now and throughout your life she’s a psychologist professor and author of the book. Platonic a new york times bestseller tony steak to planned giving accelerator. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome my guest an enlightening psychologist, international speaker and new york times best selling author. Dr marisa G franco is known for digesting and communicating science in ways that resonate deeply enough with people to change their lives. She’s a professor at the University of Maryland and authored the new york times bestseller platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. She writes about friendship for psychology today and has been a featured connection expert from major publications like the new york times, the telegraph and vice. She speaks on belonging at corporations, government agencies, nonprofits and universities today. She belongs on nonprofit radio she’s on instagram at d r marissa g franco and at D. R. Marissa G franco dot com. Welcome Marissa,

[00:02:27.00] spk_1:
thank you so much for having me. tony I love your energy.

[00:02:30.36] spk_0:
Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to have you. You get me excited to talk about friendship and you’re coming off. You just told me before we got started. You’re coming off a ted talk?

[00:02:42.03] spk_1:
Yes. Ted talk

[00:02:44.55] spk_0:
That is wonderful. Congratulations. Thank

[00:02:47.13] spk_1:
you so much.

[00:02:59.64] spk_0:
Pleasure. Look forward to seeing it. Friendship, Marissa unfortunately declining in the United States. What’s happening?

[00:03:48.48] spk_1:
Wow, that’s a great question. You know, it’s, it’s been declining since like the 1950s unfortunately. And um, there’s this really good book bowling alone and he analyzes all the factors that kind of started this decline in what he calls civic engagement, like engagement in our communities. He says it started with the television basically that before then leisure was something you did publicly, you did it with other people right? But with the creation of the television, you spent leisure at home and not only that watching tv triggers lethargy. So even if you want to get out and call someone, you’re like less likely to do it right. And then I think as we’ve continued technology like 2012 loneliness really began to spike. What happened in 2012 was the rise of the smartphone And it’s not that we can’t use technology to connect with people. We absolutely can. It’s just that the way that technology is now developed. It’s developed in a way to keep us kind of scrolling on our phones not engaging with other people, right in ways that continue to foster loneliness. So I think there’s also analysis that found that like in 35 out of 37 countries, kids in school were significantly more lonely than they were a decade ago.

[00:04:43.78] spk_0:
Mm So these uh, these technologies tv was tv was wonderful. Um, I think the belief was that I was gonna kill movie theaters, which obviously didn’t happen. Uh, Netflix was supposed to do that too and it didn’t um, blockbuster before netflix was supposed to. But so the technologies, um, you know, in some respect, especially the phone and social, the social networks, uh, that’s a lot of the promise was that it would bring us together and I know you’re saying it can, but we need to be intentional about our technology use

[00:04:55.72] spk_1:
exactly what I’m saying.

[00:04:58.12] spk_0:
Okay. And we’ll get a chance to talk, we’ll talk more about, uh, we have the whole hour together so we don’t pack it all into the first five minutes. Um, well let’s a little motivation for folks that might not recognize what what the value is of having rich fun friendships.

[00:05:50.23] spk_1:
Yeah, So we absolutely don’t recognize the value. Um, in fact there was a study that found that when people predicted how they’d feel, talking to a stranger, they, they thought they’d feel a lot more, a lot better just like being on their own and not talking to anyone that was their prediction, but the study actually found that people after they had talked to a stranger increased their amount of positive feelings and joy and more so they felt better than those who were just kind of sitting alone. And so we underestimate just how much connection will bring to our lives. But The researcher, the research finds that for example, loneliness is akin to smoking 15 cigarettes a day and its impact on our bodies.

[00:05:59.76] spk_0:
That, yep,

[00:06:01.66] spk_1:
yep, it’s that bad.

[00:06:03.58] spk_0:
15, 15.

[00:06:28.89] spk_1:
Yeah, it has a greater impact on our on how long we live in our diet or how much we exercise, so it really destroys us. Um loneliness, it’s it’s a chronic stress experience because when you’re lonely you think other people are rejecting you and you’re looking out for all these signs that people are rejecting you and your body is basically undergoing chronic stress when we’re lonely. Um so it’s really bad for us. And you know, friendship connection really helps. Like just like we need water, just like we need food to function. Well, we absolutely need connection.

[00:06:42.69] spk_0:
What do these connections do for us physiologically? That that bring down our, it sounds like raging cortisol and adrenaline if you’re if you’re lonely.

[00:07:43.62] spk_1:
Yeah, so when we are connected we release a hormone called oxytocin and oxytocin is considered a hormone that does double duty, it’s also looked at as the fountain of youth in addition to like the hormone of connection. So it both keeps you young and it keeps you connected because not only when we feel connected we release this hormone but also that you know, oxytocin actually makes us more friendly people that have higher rates of oxytocin, they’re more trusting of others more generous towards others. So it’s funny. It’s just sort of like, oh, the hardest time to make friends is when you’re lonely because of how it affects your brain and how you think about things. The easiest time to make friends is when you’re connected because it makes you friendlier and warmer and more open towards others. So kind of like our brains like sabotaging us a little bit right? Like when we really need the connection the most our brain is like actually we’re going to see everyone is very scary and weary right now and sources of threat.

[00:08:03.10] spk_0:
Okay, but we can we can overcome this. Uh and I think this is where the science of attachment comes in. So can you guess this is this is your work around the science of attachment.

[00:09:44.60] spk_1:
So as I was writing my book, I found something in the research that basically our personalities are fundamentally a reflection of our experiences of connection or lack thereof. Whether we are warm, friendly, trusting, cynical aggressive, right? These are all predicted by how you’ve connected in the past, but not only that those people that have those healthier connections. They develop an internal set of beliefs that fosters continued healthy connection. Right? So it’s like the rich get richer is kind of what we’re saying here. Um these people are what’s called securely attached. They had healthy relationships which makes them go into new relationships, assuming people like them, assuming people are their side assuming they can trust people, assuming they can be vulnerable to people, assuming people will be there when they need right? All of these assumptions really help them create connection. Whereas those people that have had difficult connections in the past, they tend to be insecurely attached. They can either be anxious, which means they go into relationships very scared that people are going to abandon them, which makes them see see rejection when it’s not there, get closed off and shut down or very angry at other people which then makes them um reject people, right? They don’t even realize that when we get really afraid of rejection, we reject people or they can be avoided only attached, which means because people have broken their trust in the past, they go into relationships with no effort, they kind of just withdraw. They’re not really trying at all. They’re very afraid of intimacy, right? And these set of beliefs that insecurely attached people will hold onto that people are going to betray me betray my trust or people are going to abandon me. They tend to become self fulfilling prophecies. They tend to become confirmation bias is where we all look out for signs that those things are true and ignore all the signs. To the contrary.

[00:11:31.17] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Their newsletter this week. Their newsletter is on message hits the importance of gathering different perspectives as you are preparing your communications. They proposed a water bottle image for a national advertising campaign for their community foundation clients nationwide. And that water bottle image didn’t feel too good to the folks in flint michigan and Jackson Mississippi turned to hadn’t thought of those, you know, those possibilities, those opinions until they did testing on their proposed images. Now of course they will develop something new. You can get their insightful newsletter on message at turn hyphen too dot C. O. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission now back to make friends. Marissa, do these have implications? It’s sounds like for for uh Children who grow up in not necessarily single parent homes, but because because single parent homes can be nurturing, but but grow up in homes where there’s uh I don’t know, I don’t know how to characterize, but like early divorce, a lot of abandonment do do kids. Kids must carry this then to their with them through the rest of their lives without some kind of intervention.

[00:12:54.10] spk_1:
Yeah. So absolutely. You know, going through a divorce as a predictor of insecure attachment. And we see that these anxiously attached people, the parents aren’t mean, but they’re just not prioritizing their kids. They’re like prioritizing themselves more. And so the kid feels like I need to like fight to earn your love. Right? Then that’s the sense that they go into in all relationships. Like I’m not inherently worthy. And if I’m not trying to prove myself all the time, people are going to leave me and then the avoidant lea attached people. And again, there’s a genetic component because some people may be like, my kid came out anxious. Um, but yeah, there’s also a genetic component that sort of intersects with the environment here. But um, and then people that are avoiding li attached, they kind of grew up with emotional neglect, like their parents fed them their parents gave them shelter but did not respond to their emotions and told them don’t cry, handle that on your own. People it on that, you know, put your emotions away, suppress your emotions, right? That’s the message that they got. And that’s why they feel like if I’m ever vulnerable people are gonna harm me or minimize me or I can’t like quite trust People with that level of vulnerability. And it’s shocking. There’s a study that basically found that our attachment as infants predicts how many inflammation related illnesses that we have like diabetes heart issues at age 32 and anxiously attached people I think were seven times more likely to have the inflammation-related issues. And avoiding the attached three times more likely than secure people.

[00:13:19.63] spk_0:
Holy cow from infancy,

[00:13:22.90] spk_1:
infancy. Yeah.

[00:13:34.21] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and and the first set of folks that you you you described, you know, if they’re they’re constantly reaching out and trying to be friends. I mean that’s gonna that’s gonna put people off, isn’t it? If you’re if you’re trying so hard, doesn’t that become apparent and a put off?

[00:13:49.33] spk_1:
Yeah, I would say it’s not the trying, it’s the pressure, like anxiously attached people.

[00:13:56.02] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:14:51.26] spk_1:
exactly. Like if someone pulls away from them, they double down there like you’re trying to take your space. I need to get you to like me, like they tend to try to create friendships with people that aren’t interested in them because again, that’s what they learned about love. Like you have to demand it and when it’s freely earned, you can’t quite trust it. Right? So the so I think I describe anxiously attached people when it comes to friendship as high effort, low reward. They put a lot of effort into creating their friendships they do initiate with other people, they try to maintain their friendships. But their fundamental problem is they are they feel so rejected and abandoned that they tend to see that when it’s not there and they tend to reject people back. You know, try to get revenge on people. They tend to not be good at letting people have their own lives and their own needs because it’s like you need to do all these things to show me that I’m worthy. So when you need space, right? When you need a little bit of distance, when you’re not able to hang out this one time, right? That’s triggering my worthiness ruin. Instead of me being able to see that you’re a separate person with your own needs and you’re not necessarily rejecting me. So that is, that’s their big struggle when it comes to

[00:15:08.92] spk_0:
friendship. Those are the anxiously attached,

[00:15:11.27] spk_1:
Those are the anxiously,

[00:15:12.35] spk_0:
anxiously attached and avoidant lee connected.

[00:15:24.33] spk_1:
Um, well, there’s the, yeah, it’s interesting, anxiously attached avoidant lee connected. Um, what do you mean by avoiding the connected?

[00:15:26.19] spk_0:
I thought that was with, I was just trying to summarize the two phrases to monikers that you put on folks actually attached and avoiding maybe I got

[00:15:38.43] spk_1:
attached

[00:15:52.13] spk_0:
attached. Okay, so let’s try to uh, I’d like to apply the, this your work, the science of attachment to uh, to, to making friends in in new jobs. We we know about the great resignation. Lots of people moving. Certainly impacting small and midsize nonprofits. Our listeners. If we’re in a new job understanding it may very well be hybrid. What, what, what applies, what, how can we help ourselves to build these platonic friendships? Platonic relationships.

[00:17:51.90] spk_1:
First of all, I just want to emphasize just how important it is to make friends at work. Um, when people rate how meaningful their job is one of the biggest predictors, even more so than like salary flexibility. Um all these objective measures of work is how connected they feel like that’s like the biggest predictor of how meaningful people find their work. And there’s like studies that look at data from like all these different countries and have people rate out of these 12 domains which winter the most important to you in the workplace and resoundingly across all the countries, people say having good relationships with other people. So it’s critical. I mean, you know, lonely employees, they’re more likely to miss work, their performance suffers less engaged, less likely to be retained, right? Like for us to be happy at work, we need to feel connected, right? It’s it’s no, it’s not just and I’ve been through this as myself, as a professor at an institution who was like, I love the work that I’m doing but I don’t feel like I belong here and I feel really isolated and I left right, even though I love the work because that connection is just such an important resource. And you know, there’s research that finds that when we estimate how steep a hill is when we’re with a friend, we see it as less steep, which suggest when we face challenges and we’re connected, like challenges at the workplace. They feel less challenging to us. Other research that finds that when you have a break to have a conversation with another person and you come back and you you fill out like a test similar to like an IQ test your score is actually higher because you took that time to converse with another person. So

[00:17:57.11] spk_0:
remarkable outcomes.

[00:17:59.96] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:01.62] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:18:54.77] spk_1:
So impactful. So so what that means is like relationships don’t get in the way of work, they’re part of what we need to facilitate it. And for us to be performing at our best, we need to feel connected. Um And so if you want to make friends at work, I think it’s similar, similar tips that I share. Um for outside of work, which is assumed people like you um because according to research on something called the acceptance prophecy, when people, when people are told that you’re going to go into a group and be liked even though this is a lie, they become friendlier, warmer more open. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy right? So assume that your co workers want to hang out with you and want to get to know you want to hear from you right? Of course if they if they say no or they’re disinterested then move along but make that you’re starting assumption right? And then you have to initiate

[00:18:56.30] spk_0:
because we underestimate that we

[00:18:58.51] spk_1:
underestimate yep

[00:18:59.87] spk_0:
underestimate people’s other people’s esteem for us.

[00:19:17.86] spk_1:
We do, it’s called the liking gap when strangers interact and estimate how like they are by the other person, they underestimate how like they are and not only that the more self critical people were the greater this underestimation so people like us more than we think

[00:19:20.89] spk_0:
like you people

[00:19:22.32] spk_1:
like you

[00:19:23.75] spk_0:
Smalley you know al Franken on saturday night live.

[00:19:27.52] spk_1:
Yeah

[00:19:28.54] spk_0:
dammit people I’m a good person and people like me or something like that.

[00:19:46.54] spk_1:
People like you. Yeah. Yeah and then you have to initiate, you have to say like hey do you want to get lunch sometime or hey do you wanna have coffee sometime? I totally love to get to know you more right. I don’t know why we think these things come off as weird. That’s

[00:19:46.91] spk_0:
the hard step taking that taking that affirmative step to say let’s move it to the next level

[00:19:53.81] spk_1:
which is not that

[00:20:50.23] spk_0:
big A. Level. It’s just like chatting in the office versus having lunch. It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the I. T. Buffet it’s the holistic I. T. Services solution where you choose the buffet items that fit your budget or your I. T. Appetite as it were like help desk, security assessment planning and budgeting. Moving to the cloud and there’s more, take what you want from the buffet line. Leave the rest behind fourth dimension technologies, tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper let’s return to make friends. Why do we feel that That’s so that’s such the hard step to take

[00:20:54.71] spk_1:
after

[00:20:56.22] spk_0:
The five minute conversation that that went you know went smoothly and fun.

[00:21:20.30] spk_1:
Yeah. I think our fear of rejection is one of the biggest barriers to making friends, but our brains have a negativity bias which means that when we predict how our behaviors come off, our predictions tend to be inaccurate and more cynical than the truth, right? Like I already told you about the like and gap, but that is a finding that is across the board. There’s so many studies that find that people are perceiving us more positively than we tend to assume, right. And so if we can just remind ourselves of this like people like you, they’re less likely to reject you than you think it gets a little bit easier to reach out to people and say yeah, I’d love to connect

[00:21:45.42] spk_0:
sometime and I don’t know I am I am I oversimplifying if I say that uh people are over thinking like should I take the next step? Should I, should I say let’s have lunch or should get together after work? I mean are we are we doing that or am I am I oversimplifying if I am saying you know you don’t know what you’re talking about?

[00:23:07.61] spk_1:
No, I think so. I mean I think if you think it do it right, if you think, should we have lunch just ask let’s have lunch right? It’s you know, you don’t have to go back and forth with it if you’re rejected. Also like that’s okay. Like for there’s a study that had people basically read stories about people transitioning to college where people kind of said at first it was difficult making friends, but eventually I found my people right? And then to share their own story of like, oh, I was rejected along the way. But eventually I found my people so and that that fosters greater belonging when we are able to see rejection as part of the trajectory to belonging, right? Like if you want to belong, you put yourself out there, you’re taking a risk. Some people will reject you. Some people won’t, the rejection is not assigned to crawl back into your cave and carl black and tortoiseshell and never try again. It’s a sign that you’re doing everything right and that you’re on the path and this is a part of the path to connection is rejection, right? So I think that helps to remember that. And I like to tell people like if you’ve reached out to someone, you’ve succeeded because you can’t control their outcome and you can’t judge yourself by an outcome you cannot control. So if you did successfully what was within your control, which is reaching out to someone like you’ve already succeeded, no matter what they say.

[00:23:38.39] spk_0:
Now we’re getting into the realm of like, value yourself. You know? Think, think well of yourself people uh the the uh keep in mind the liking gap, you know, but it’s not a reflection on you. It’s they they it’s a reflection on them or maybe they really are busy for lunch already.

[00:24:03.58] spk_1:
Exactly, yeah, don’t take it so personally, I promise it’s not as personal as you think and the more you take it personally, there’s a theory called hypervigilance for social threat hypothesis, which is really clunky, but it’s just the meaning of it. Is that the more that we assume we’re going to be rejected, the poorer our relationships will be because when we assume we are going to be rejected, we engage in antisocial behaviors, right? I’m not going to reach out to you, I’m not going to try to connect with you. I’m not gonna be vulnerable with you. I’m not going to show affection towards you, right? Because I’m assuming that I’m going to be rejected.

[00:24:18.74] spk_0:
Thank you for defining that too, because we have drug in jail on non I’d hate to I hate to have thrown you in drug in jail, but you you defined you defined it.

[00:24:28.11] spk_1:
Okay.

[00:24:36.88] spk_0:
Um so is there anything else about new employee, new workplace, uh that advice that you have?

[00:24:40.15] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:24:41.23] spk_0:
or hybrid, maybe hybrid advice with, you know, I’m not gonna get to see these people live for several weeks.

[00:24:56.46] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, I think setting up a regular time to me is a really good idea because you’re not going to just kind of bump into each other, like asking people are you open to just like a weekly catch up or a bi weekly catch up. Right? And the other thing is when you do catch up, like stop talking about work, Like if you there’s a study that found that the more time you spend with your colleagues, the less close you feel and that is really weird, right? Because

[00:25:14.01] spk_0:
the more time the more time you spend with your work colleagues, the less connected you

[00:25:20.28] spk_1:
feel. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:25:22.38] spk_0:
How can that be?

[00:25:40.93] spk_1:
So my theory is that you know, typically we spend time together at foster’s connection but at work we spend time together and we’re only showing this work side of ourselves. So it’s like you only know me as like an employee, you only know my ability to fill out this data sheet and that’s all we’re talking about. So I think it’s really important if you want to make connections at work, like stop talking about work, tell them about who you are. I think some people think it’s like risky, but like there’s so many things you can share about who you are that are not risk, like what are your hobbies interests? Like what is your community, like outside of work, where have you lived before? What are you learning? What media are you engaging in recently?

[00:26:39.04] spk_0:
All these things that you can ask people about when you’re first meeting them, you know maybe maybe not in a work setting, but something social. I mean people have people want to tell their stories, you know, where like you said, where have you lived? What have you done? Uh are you married, you have a partner, you have Children. Where is your family? Do you know all that, all that stuff? Um Yes. Um what about uh new town if you’re in a if you’ve relocated recently, special advice for uh for a new new new place to live or someone who’s maybe uh I don’t know how many listeners this applies to, but a nomad perhaps on the road a lot.

[00:27:56.16] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. So, um, I think people move to a new town and they’re like, I hope to make friends and I want to tell you do not assume it’s going to happen organically, just don’t like friendship in adulthood, it doesn’t happen organically. Um people that think it does are actually lonely or five years later, according to one study. Whereas people that see it as happening based on effort or less lonely five years later. So my suggestion for you is thinking about something that you’re interested in and pursue it in community with other people. Right? So, I love learning different languages. I can take my spanish class, you could do your hiking class, your improv class, your meditation class, your, you know, whatever it is that you like, your class at the university. I think a lot of retired folks to do things like that, right? Because when you and then you’re you’re setting yourself up to see someone in a way that’s repeated over time and that does two things for you. First of all, when you see someone in a repeated way over time, we have an unconscious tendency to like them more. It’s called the mere exposure effect. So

[00:27:57.41] spk_0:
mirror

[00:29:06.61] spk_1:
Mirror. Yeah, mere exposure effect, yep. And so when researchers planted women in a psychology lecture, they found that, um, students liked the woman who showed up for the most classes, 20% more than the student, the woman that didn’t show up for any, they don’t remember any of these women. Um, but we also find something called like the anticipation of liking effect, which is the, the effect that when we think we’re going to see people again, we report liking them more. Then when we’re not sure we’re going to see someone again. So if I just show up to this lecture and this happy hour, it’s a one off event. I’m not capitalizing on those powerful forces of connection versus when I’m joining something that’s repeated over time, people tend to be more invested in each other, they come to like each other more. I think another implication of mere exposure effect because when I was in college, I like joined a club to make friends and in the first club, I didn’t feel like anyone reached out to me and I didn’t really connect with anyone and then I quit. But the implications of mere exposure effect is like you are going to feel uncomfortable at that first meeting. You’re gonna feel weary. You’re gonna feel like I don’t trust anyone, right? That is part of the process new, your exposure effect has not set in yet, right? It’s going to take a little bit of time before you feel comfortable and they feel comfortable around you. Um,

[00:29:18.96] spk_0:
that’s what you say, you’re, you’re doing the right things,

[00:29:48.91] spk_1:
you’re doing the right things. It may feel, you may feel uncomfortable along the way, but that doesn’t mean that you’re doing anything wrong. But the other tip that I share, because this was my other issue, I show up at this club and I wait for people to talk to me, right? And I don’t really try to introduce myself to anyone and I’m engaging in something called covert avoidance, which is when you show up physically, but check out mentally you’re on your phone, you’re in the corner, you may be talking to the host, the bar bartender, right? You’re watching the television, right? But to overcome covert avoidance, it’s not just about showing up. You have to engage with people when you get there, right? You have to say, hey, my name is Marissa, it’s so good to meet you. Like tell me more about your experience with this club, right? That’s that’s the sort of thing that really fosters the connection.

[00:31:37.05] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator. I’m just planting some seeds here. The next accelerator class is going to be starting in March and I really won’t be promoting it until january, february. Well in january and february. Starting in january, I’ll have some info then. So just like I said, planting seeds if launching and planned, giving fundraising program is something you want to do at your nonprofit or if you’re interested in it for professional development purposes, your own skill building plan giving accelerator, I’ll be able to help you in, uh, for either of those use cases. That’s it. That’s Tony’s take two, two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for make friends with Marisa Franco. This has a lot of residents for are a lot of our listeners who are professional fundraisers and so they’re, they’re, they’re naturally drawn to folks, uh, and relationships. Hopefully otherwise I think they’re in the wrong profession. They’re not, if they’re not naturally inclined to like people, but, but this is all that valuable reminders. I’m, as you’re speaking, I’m thinking of myself in a charity event, you know, a cocktail party or a dinner or something. Yeah. And, and there are the folks who are right talking to the host, talking, talking to your fellow coworkers. You’re supposed to be supposed to be talking to the donors and potential donors to the organization, not huddled with your coworkers for half the time.

[00:32:29.71] spk_1:
I wanted to just touch on that tony because everything that I’m saying about making friends applies to networking like networking to me is making friends with people. Um And when people go into a networking event, one study found that they spend so much more time interacting with people they already know when 95% of people that go went to this networking event reported wanting to meet new people. So literally everybody is there to meet you but everybody is afraid and we think if they’re not engaging with me they don’t want to meet me. But no they’re not engaging with you because they’re afraid just like you are right. And so you know I met this woman, she’s really good at making friends and her secret. Was that she her mom had always told her everybody wants to be your friend, they’re just waiting for you to initiate.

[00:32:59.75] spk_0:
I love that. In one of your new york times interviews I saw a comment that was a little disturbing, but I’m glad I saw it because I would not have thought of it. The guy said this doesn’t apply to men may be fine for women but this doesn’t apply to men can you? And I was first I thought it was unfortunate then I thought some in cell sitting in his mom’s basement or something. Uh tuna helper uh scrolling four chan So can we help this, Can we help this person can reassure us that it doesn’t matter. You haven’t said anything about gender. I brought it up. Can we can we reassure folks that it applies for everybody?

[00:33:32.75] spk_1:
We can we can engage in the complexities of gender, which is that this person is right. It is harder for men. Um we know from the research that men are half as likely to be vulnerable with their friends, half as likely to share affection towards their friends. What men are up against is something called homo hysteria, which is men’s fear of being perceived as gay. So a lot of the behaviors that foster yeah,

[00:33:57.98] spk_0:
hysteria,

[00:33:59.10] spk_1:
hysteria,

[00:33:59.95] spk_0:
afraid of being perceived as gay,

[00:34:45.59] spk_1:
yep, yep. And it’s like it can be very deep rooted and very unconscious, but you know, why are some men so afraid to say I love you to a friend, right? Or you know to even like have any sort of touch with a friend a hug with a friend. Right? And and I think that’s you know, this homo hysteria makes men feel like I can’t um I like I I can’t reach out to a guy. I can’t ask him to just hang out. We have to do it around an activity, right? And this home hysteria makes it so that I think it’s harder for men to find other men that are ready to be in deep relationships with them. That being said. I still think all my tips apply. I think they I still think all the tips apply. What I do think is that men who are specifically seeking friendships with other men. They might have to go through more of a sifting process, right? I told you rejection is part of the experience, right? Men just might have to meet a larger pool of men to find men that are ready for the deep intimacies of friendship, who aren’t as haunted by homo hysteria.

[00:35:10.79] spk_0:
And what about cross gender friends? Uh male and female? Is that that make it harder to I’m engaging in deep stereotypes here. Is it harder for men to to be friends with women? And this comes from when Harry met sally? You know, what what what what are the dynamics there?

[00:36:26.07] spk_1:
The dynamics are that men very much benefit from being friends with women. Like the research is mixed on whether men feel closer to their women friends or their men friends, whereas women in general report that the women in their life are the closest friends that they have. So so men and also men that are friends with women actually experience more intimacy in their friendships than men that are just friends with men. So, so I think men feel safer around women in some ways to get really vulnerable in a way that they don’t always feel around other men. So these cross gender friendships really give something to men in particular and obviously, you know, everybody gets the sort of new perspective that they might be looking for from someone of a different gender, which both genders report appreciating about these cross gender friendships. We also know though that these cross gender friendships tend to be more fragile, they’re more likely to end. And there can be, you know, people can feel threatened, right if you get into a romantic relationship or you have a spouse and oh you’re making friends with someone of a different gender. And what does that mean for our relationship? Right. And so I think some of those assumptions are part of the reason why it can be harder to make those friendships.

[00:36:44.49] spk_0:
That was uh what you just mentioned was the cause of my uh my a divorce once.

[00:36:52.25] spk_1:
Yeah.

[00:36:54.09] spk_0:
Yeah. I my first wife refused to allow me to um have lunch with female colleagues

[00:37:03.93] spk_1:
at

[00:37:14.46] spk_0:
work at work. Um and then um then she she she thought I had had a lunch and devolved from there. But that was a deep, I mean to me it was an insecurity that you know, lunches with colleagues were were prohibited. Yeah.

[00:37:25.26] spk_1:
Can I speak to that tony because I think you’re raising a really important

[00:37:28.50] spk_0:
point.

[00:37:45.23] spk_1:
We sometimes really perceive friendship as antagonistic to romantic love, right? Like if you’re hanging out with your friends, you’re not hanging out with me. Like I only want you or I only want you to hang out with me, I won’t be the only woman in your life, right? But in fact people that have friends are a lot better spouses because if I make a friend according to the research, not only am I less depressed, my spouse becomes less depressed because

[00:37:56.00] spk_0:
like

[00:38:32.02] spk_1:
yeah, your own happiness in a relationship is going to impact your spouse’s. So anything that makes you happy is going to make your relationship happier, right? And and there’s other studies that find that when you get into conflict, your release of the stress hormone cortisol after the conflict is like dis regulated off, it’s off, it’s wacky. But when you have quality connection outside the marriage, that’s not true, your stress hormone release is still typical. And studies also find that for women that have particularly close friendship tend to have more close friendships when they go through difficulties in their marriage, they’re more resilient to them because they’re centering themselves emotionally and re engaging in this relationship from a centered place because they have someone else that they could also talk to about the issue. So, so I don’t think I wish that we didn’t see these two things as antagonistic because in fact they’re synergistic like your spouse making friends is going to make for a better marriage, a better relationship with you and

[00:38:53.77] spk_0:
you

[00:38:54.45] spk_1:
and happier you and happier spouse both things All

[00:39:04.79] spk_0:
right. Um you you encourage folks to share that with with their friends how they feel that they that they like their friends that they’re thinking about their friends. Why why is that so important?

[00:39:34.90] spk_1:
Yeah. So I think sometimes we have this misconception that oh, vulnerability burdens people, right? But in fact the research is sort of like clear that the more you disclose intimately about yourself, the closer that people feel to you, the more that they like you, right? It’s and the more that they disclose back. So it becomes again this sort of positive reinforcing cycle and fundamentally, you know, having someone to confide and being vulnerable with someone is really important for our mental health and well being. There is a study that looked at 106 factors that influence our depressive symptoms. Do you know what the number one preventer was?

[00:39:56.81] spk_0:
Vulnerability?

[00:39:59.39] spk_1:
Yeah, it was. And then having someone to confide in that was the number one, number one preventer of depression. Um and so

[00:40:07.59] spk_0:
100 and 600 and

[00:40:13.50] spk_1:
606. That’s the most powerful one. Yeah. So we need it for ourselves. We need it for our relationships like we need that vulnerability. Otherwise you’re going to feel like I’m friends with them but they don’t really know me. And I don’t actually feel that close to them.

[00:40:44.42] spk_0:
Listeners are gonna know may even predict what I’m about to say about vulnerability and leadership that I’ve I’ve I’ve always subscribed That vulnerability is a is a wonderful characteristic uh feature of of of leadership that you can open up vulnerability about, you know, not necessarily about your personal life but about uh you know that that you don’t have all the answers that the organization isn’t where we want it to be, but here’s how we can get it there vulnerability. Can are you able to speak to vulnerability in leadership and how that’s perceived by the people who work for that person?

[00:41:26.73] spk_1:
Yeah, I haven’t read extensively on this, but I know it does contribute to positive outcomes at work and I also know that as a leader, what you do disproportionately sets the culture and the tone of the place, right? So if you’re able to be vulnerable, you literally create an entire culture of people being vulnerable where now colleagues feel like, okay this is a norm. Like leaders are creating the norms. And so the people that are all working under you are all going to feel like, oh now I can be more vulnerable with other people and I can share more and obviously that’s going to help them create those workplace connections with their colleagues that we just talked about is so meaningful.

[00:41:46.37] spk_0:
So that that can absolutely trickle down

[00:41:50.27] spk_1:
from from from

[00:41:51.28] spk_0:
leadership.

[00:41:51.97] spk_1:
Whatever you do as a leader trickles down so choose wisely.

[00:41:56.89] spk_0:
Um I’ve been firing a lot of stuff at you, Marissa, what what would you like to talk about?

[00:42:01.68] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m wondering what has you interested in this topic?

[00:43:55.63] spk_0:
Uh Okay thank you. I’m I’m the connector among friends. Um Hi going back to high school, I’m 60 I still have deep friends friendship from high school um from college law school, the Air Force jobs I’ve been in like I leave a job, but I still stay in touch with the friends. I still, because I didn’t like the job. It’s not that I didn’t like the people. So I tend to be the ones my fraternity. I’m the one who organizes the, uh, the annual reunion around the spring carnival at the college. Um, I’m a connector. You know, I’m the one even even through and I don’t have, I don’t have Children. I’m married but don’t have Children. So even through the ages where, uh, my friends were, uh, saddled, had the responsibilities of Children, put it trying to put it as politely as possible saddled or burdened with parenthood. You know, we had the responsibility of childhood. So, you know, they couldn’t get away on a, on a reunion weekend, you know, but you, you wait out, you know, stay in touch and do what you can call instead of meeting, maybe, Uh, quick meeting instead of dinner meetings. You know, things like that. And then through the decades, uh, you wait 16 or 17 years and then the Children don’t want to be around because the parents are now humiliation and embarrassment. So if you wait out your friends, they’ll come back to you and then all of a sudden they can come back to the reunions and they can meet you for a weekend and a dinner because their Children don’t want to be seen anywhere near them. You wait it out, your your, your your you’re friends with, Children will come back. Um, so yeah, so yes, I saw you in the times. And the idea of deep friendships, relationships going back to high school, uh, resonates with me. I’m the connector.

[00:44:08.91] spk_1:
So you’re the one that will reach out and initiate and put in the effort. It sounds like,

[00:44:30.99] spk_0:
yeah, I keep the email lists for a bunch of, a bunch of different categories of friends. I forgot to mention Boy Scouts. My Boy Scout camp fellow coworkers and Boy scouts. Uh, yeah, I’ve got a bunch of email lists. I’m the one who initiates, but you know, it’s, it’s to me, I’m doing it for selfish reasons because it feels so good.

[00:44:36.59] spk_1:
It’s

[00:45:24.38] spk_0:
the, it’s the, it’s the cortisol regulation you talked about. I don’t know if dopamine is firing. Um, the oxytocin that you mentioned. You know, people thank me, but I’d say I do it for selfish reasons because it feels good to get to see 20 friends together for a reunion weekend and laughing like they can’t laugh in front of their families or their coworkers, because you know, we have bonds and we saw each other when we were stupid in college or in high school that that transcend these bonds, transcend all our other relationships. And so the persona is the personas are dropped, the facades are down and everybody’s just back slapping and laughing and enjoying each other’s company that we’ve known each other for 45 years in some cases.

[00:45:44.24] spk_1:
And I also hear that because I know sometimes people are like the one to reach out and the one to organize and they can feel a little bit resentful. Like people aren’t reaching out to me. But it sounds like maybe part of the reason why that works for you is because you’re able to be like, well, this is a joy for me. It isn’t, you know, the task to be the one that reaches out all the time. Or or do you sometimes feel resentful if people aren’t as intentional as you are?

[00:46:07.33] spk_0:
I used to. But that was that was probably 10 or 15 years ago or so. And I just got over it. A lot of it was because folks had Children. So, you know, so they weren’t as available. Um, but I, yeah, I got over it. I don’t You know, if people don’t respond to the, well, it’s not that nobody responds, but for the folks who don’t respond to the let’s get together over the reunion weekend at college. You know, they have their own things going on. That’s okay. You know? Uh, let’s let’s focus on the 25 who will, who will come.

[00:46:22.32] spk_1:
Yeah, it seems like you learn to not take things personally and that really helped you with your friendships.

[00:46:27.36] spk_0:
Yeah, enormously that

[00:46:29.15] spk_1:
security. That’s the secure attachment. We’ve been talking about.

[00:46:32.64] spk_0:
Okay, great. I’m talking to a psychologist. I’m doing my therapy. I’m doing my therapy and public here.

[00:46:40.41] spk_1:
I want to have my podcast. I love asking questions. I love turning the tables and hearing from people and we all have so much wisdom inside of us. You

[00:47:12.68] spk_0:
know I appreciate it. And obviously I had a story to tell why this all this your work resonates with me because I believe in deep rich friendships. You know the jokes that only we get You know that only we know because it goes back 30 years or something. You know those types of things that those inside things you know that it all it all resonates my synesthesia is kicking in because I’m getting goose bumps as I’m talking to you. Um You have a quiz we should encourage folks to take your quiz at. Uh D. R. Marissa. And by the way marissa is one S. D. R. Marissa G franco dot com. You want to acquaint folks with your quiz on on your site?

[00:47:35.11] spk_1:
Yeah so at dr marisa G franco dot com you can take a quiz. It assesses your strengths and weaknesses as a friend and also gives you some suggestions for how to improve as a friend if that’s what you’re looking for and you can reach out there. I do for any speaking engagements on connection and belonging

[00:48:13.70] spk_0:
you say dr marisa DeFranco people will spell out doctor. Okay well it’s the lawyer it’s the Air Force I guess. D. R. Marissa. however you want to do it just doctor is D. R. D. R. Marissa. Dr marisa DeFranco dot com. Um But what else anything else from from the book or from from your research, science of attachment or anything else you wanna you wanna talk about? You graciously turned to me. That was very

[00:48:15.58] spk_1:
thoughtful. You

[00:48:16.92] spk_0:
are very generous and thoughtful

[00:48:18.03] spk_1:
that way. What

[00:48:19.16] spk_0:
would you like to talk about that we didn’t cover?

[00:48:22.55] spk_1:
Well I think you know my niece read my book and one of her takeaways was that for friendship to happen someone has to be brave so be brave.

[00:48:35.03] spk_0:
Okay would you like to leave it there? I

[00:48:53.41] spk_1:
would like to leave it there and of course my book you know I appreciate if you read it I think you’ll really like it. It’s called Platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. It’s a new york times bestseller. Or you can find me on for more tips outside of this. You can find me on instagram at D. R. DR D. R marissa G franco as well and hopefully we can connect more. But tony thank you so much. This was really pleasure and I really did enjoy hearing some of your insights especially because you know I’m a little younger than you so I’m like what is the future hold for me and friendship So it’s just it’s really helpful to hear your your wisdom.

[00:49:13.10] spk_0:
Oh thank you very much. I guess I guess I would summarize with wait out your friends,

[00:49:19.71] spk_1:
wait

[00:49:20.07] spk_0:
out your your weight out, you’re married, you’re married friends, they will come back to

[00:49:24.97] spk_1:
you. Uh

[00:49:26.49] spk_0:
and uh and Marisa’s book is at uh is that dr marisa DeFranco dot com? So that’s where you can find her book, platonic, Thank you, Marissa, real joy. I got more goose bumps. Thank you so much. Thank

[00:49:40.35] spk_1:
you.

[00:50:41.75] spk_0:
Don’t leave yet. I have to have to say goodbye to everybody. It’s time for um sorry, it’s time for me to tell you that next week what what next week’s show is gonna be ordinarily I would, but I’m working on it, I’m working on, I won’t let you down again. I mean, not that I have, I’m saying again that I won’t let you down. Not like I let you down in the past and now I won’t do it again. That’s not what I meant. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by fourth dimension technologies I tion for in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and his music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation, Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit, radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%, go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for October 17, 2022: Wake Up Excited, Go To Bed Fulfilled

 

Eric SaperstonWake Up Excited, Go To Bed Fulfilled

That’s what Eric Saperston wants for you. He returns after many years to share his wisdom born of research over cups of coffee with some of the most successful folks on the planet. Plus there’s his book, “Live In Wonder.”

 

 

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[00:00:11.23] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of dextrose acclimation if I saw that you missed this week’s

[00:00:32.52] spk_1:
show, wake

[00:00:56.60] spk_0:
up excited, go to bed fulfilled. That’s what eric Sapperstein wants for you. He returns after many years to share his wisdom born of research over cups of coffee with some of the most successful folks on the planet. Plus there’s his book Live in wonder On Tony’s take 2 18 reasons for bequests. We’re sponsored by turn to

[00:00:57.91] spk_1:
communications

[00:01:05.94] spk_0:
pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O. and by 4th Dimension Technologies IT Infra in a

[00:01:09.89] spk_1:
box. The

[00:01:58.00] spk_0:
affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It is a genuine pleasure to welcome back eric Sapperstein to the show. He is an award winning winning filmmaker, best selling author, executive coach, keynote speaker and host of the new series, three things you may have seen him on the Today show CNN or headline news or in the new york times National Geographic or the Wall Street Journal. He continues to interview world leaders, tycoons, visionaries and pioneers to understand the common traits that make them successful. He’s at Erik Sabiston and at eric Sapper stone dot com eric welcome back to non profit radio

[00:02:07.49] spk_1:
Yay, Tony What a pleasure to be back with you my friend 10 years that some people would call that a decade

[00:02:49.41] spk_0:
10. It was, it was february 2012. Last time you were on we met at the thing called the next gen charity conference in new york city. Uh and I’ve been following you since I’ve got your film, we’re going to talk about, you’ve uh you’ve been living a life of Wonder. We’re gonna get to that book called Living Wonder. Um but I, I’ve got to ask you about wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled, give us some some, you know, we have a full hour together so no need to, no need to squeeze it all in here. But like high level, how can we wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled.

[00:03:33.96] spk_1:
Well, what a great question I think for me, first and foremost, you know, I grew up, my father before I was born had a stroke. He was 28 years old and he had a stroke Before that he was playing minor league baseball for the white sox. He was the top c you know, executive. My mom was a stay at home mother and at 28 my dad went into the doctor found out he was bleeding in the arteries, they had to do a surgery on him and he came out paralyzed on the entire left side of his body and my mom who was a stay at home mother became the breadwinner for our family. My dad crippled uh was really in dire straits and and depressed and had a real hard go. And then four years later I wasn’t planned, I had, I have an older brother and a sister that are six and seven years old. But even though my dad was paralyzed, he still had some things functioning.

[00:03:51.90] spk_0:
So I I

[00:08:29.90] spk_1:
uh I was because I was born as a, as a surprise and and came into the world with a father that was crippled, a father that was jaded a father that was angry and upset for not, you know, and rightfully so he he was, he was an athlete and a participate er in life and all of a sudden he was regulated to have to really crawl through the world and it wasn’t a pleasurable experience for him. And one of the great lessons that I learned from growing up like that is around suffering and there’s all kinds of suffering, they’re suffering that’s thrust upon you like being paralyzed and then there’s internal suffering, mental suffering. And one of my personal missions is to is to reduce suffering and increase joy in people’s lives. And I, I looked at my dad who was was struggling and I thought, well, he’s he’s he’s got a lot of wisdom and he’s very smart and I’m grateful to be a son and he’s not waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled. And that’s something that called to me, I wanted to do that. And so I out of college, I realized that I wanted to, to learn how to do that and not knowing it myself because it wasn’t modeled for me. That’s when I came up with this idea of traveling around the country and calling up the most passionate and successful people in the world and asking them out for a cup of coffee so I can learn from them how to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled. And so I’ve learned a tremendous amount. And, and uh, I think that’s one of the reasons why people bring me out now to give speeches and coach executives and do all the things is to help people uh, do that. I think the world right now is for me from where I’m sitting. When I look at most people, I see most people going to bed exhausted and waking up tired and then they put that on repeat over and over and all of a sudden, you know, a week goes into a month and a month goes into a year and all of a sudden before you know, it, it’s been a decade of, of doing that. And I think that’s a tragedy. I think that a life is such a beautiful gift and that we’re here to live it. And I think it’s important to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled and live every day, like it’s your last and a big part of that. You asked me, what can you do to do that? I would say three things in particular. One, I would say that it’s all about our language, that we use our language uh and the stories that we tell to shape and create and design our our life. And most people are using disempowering language uh to describe their life and they’re getting disempowering results. And if we use empowering language, we can have a better shot at creating empowered results. So we play a game called up the language and elevate the story and the higher we can tell, the better story that we can tell about our lives, the better our lives become. So that’s number one, Number two on what it takes to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled. I would say it’s all about being really clear about the standards, guiding principles, values, definitions and commitments of who we are. One of the metaphors I like to use is that uh again, when I look around the world today, I see a lot of rudderless boats and we all know what happens to a boat without a rudder. You know, people have become rudderless boats and when a boat doesn’t have a rudder, it drifts, it’s at the whim of the elements, it, the news can impact it. A a story can impact it and people are being spun around. That’s why I think people are going to bed exhausted and waking up tired is because they’re unclear about what it is that they stand for and what I’ve learned from talking to the most successful people in the world is that they’re clear and they weren’t clear when they became successful, they got clear on the way because that became the rudder of their boat and they became the captain of their vessel and they were able to carve through all kinds of scenarios to be who they are because they know what their definition of success is. They know what their vision is, they know what their mission is. They know what the values that push and drive them to do what they do. They know their commitments. And I think one of the things that I’m seeing as I’m coaching all these executives around the world is that no matter how successful the executive has become, people need a good checkup, they need an opportunity to kind of reevaluate who am I, what am I what do I care about? What’s important to me and get really clear about that. And with that comes confidence, self esteem, velocity, ease, and power. And the third thing I would say that helps people wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled is definitely one of the big ah ha’s for me after studying the common traits of extraordinary people. Now for many, many years, one of the big epiphanies was that the people who wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled and live extraordinary lives for decades are people that have maintained celebrated and share their sense of wonder with the

[00:08:51.00] spk_0:
world

[00:09:40.02] spk_1:
that we have become a society that has become cynical and jaded and bored and disillusioned and all that is because somebody has sold out. Their sense of wonder. Wonder is a birthright that all of us have, every single child on this planet was born with a sense of wonder. It is our first value. It is about being curious and innovative and exploratory and living life is an adventure and some people are born with it and keep it and nurture it and celebrate it and go on to live extraordinary lives and other people, let like, you know, get punched in the gut and let the wind get knocked out of them. Let the wonder get knocked out of them, and then they become cynical and jaded and depressed and all those kind of things. So, I think this world right now, one of my big invitations is for everyone to do whatever it takes to reclaim their sense of wonder, That childlike curiosity, that all that playfulness and approach life from that place, it brings vitality, life force, and aliveness,

[00:09:57.25] spk_0:
which

[00:09:57.68] spk_1:
I guess ultimately, uh to answer your question, if you put all those together and a few other things, I think you have a greater chance of waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled.

[00:10:59.80] spk_0:
You make my synesthesia kick in. I I get I get some tears listening to you, especially the last the third, especially the third livin livin wonder that reclaiming that childhood curiosity. Sense of sense of wonder. Um, I, I have to share with you that I’ve been sharing your, I’m gonna call, well I’m gonna call it a mantra. Maybe it’s not your mantra, but the mantra. Wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled. Um, in, in my work, I am often talking to people who are 70 and over because I’m doing planned, giving fundraising for my clients who are non profits and they’re the people who leave the leave, the nonprofits in their wills and their trust and their life insurance. You know, they’re typically over 70 or so. So I shared this mantra with two women and they both, they both wanted to write it down. 11 was 84 the other, I told it to her on her 99th birthday. I was with her just a couple of weeks ago celebrating her 99th birthday and I told her about the, the,

[00:11:18.04] spk_1:
so

[00:11:18.39] spk_0:
The, the aspiration to uh, to wake up excited, go to bed fulfilled and both of them and she wrote it down. This is how a 99 year old remembers things she write it down. She would think about it and the 84 year old that was a phone conversation, but same thing she, she wanted to write it down. So it’s, it’s inspirational to folks who are over 84 and over and including a 99 year old that I shared it with. So it’s, it is uh, it’s such a beautiful aspiration.

[00:12:01.96] spk_1:
You know, it really came to me organically. I was, you know, you mentioned that I made a movie and out of college for those folks, I guess that, that don’t know about it. You know, I graduated from college and my, I, I had gone to college, not planning to go to college. I really was, that wasn’t really in my focus yet. I ended up going to school. And then not only did I go to school, I excelled, I became a student body president and fraternity president, a resident advisor. I ran the volunteer center, a big advocate. I’ve been volunteering for a long time.

[00:12:22.65] spk_0:
Where did you go to school and shout out

[00:12:25.22] spk_1:
to SAN Diego State, S.

[00:12:27.83] spk_0:
D. S. U SAn Diego State,

[00:13:17.75] spk_1:
you and the, and Grossmont College. Before that I went to a community college. I said, I did, I didn’t plan to go to college. I went to community college first, then went to SAN Diego state. And volunteering was, has been a part of my soul for a long time. It was when I was a kid. Volunteering volunteer for the special olympics. I ran the volunteer center. I ended up getting invited to run with the olympic torch because I was a volunteer uh, and volunteerism led me to being a speaker at the AmeriCorps conference, you know, for the martin Luther king national conference on service. Then I ended up meeting credit scott king and then I ended up meeting the director of the FBI bill sessions and then he introduced me to Governor Richards and Governor Richards introduced me to Henry Winkler, the Fonz. And then that led to a development deal with walt Disney Studios and then it turned our journey. We were traveling. I was I kind of jumped ahead but I was, I was

[00:13:19.97] spk_0:
gonna talk about graduating. Yeah, we’re gonna talk about Van life, we’re gonna get we’re gonna get great. But

[00:13:24.99] spk_1:
no doubt about it.

[00:13:26.00] spk_0:
I

[00:13:28.09] spk_1:
think people like to say I was Van Life before Van Life was a hashtag.

[00:13:31.54] spk_0:
Yes, before we even had hashtags,

[00:13:33.92] spk_1:
it

[00:13:35.50] spk_0:
was such a thing as a hashtag, it was a pound sign. It used to be a pound

[00:13:39.18] spk_1:
sign, It

[00:13:40.32] spk_0:
was a butcher, you were dead. A pound. Like three hashtag £3. And then that got converted to a hashtag and now pounds. I guess it’s just L. B. But yes, when, when pounds was represented by today’s hashtag you were you were living Van life.

[00:16:43.75] spk_1:
I was, I was indeed. So I guess for the for the just to recap the movie. So the movie where I graduated college I took and instead of getting a job because I felt like I achieved a lot in college and I wasn’t so ready to go get a corporate job or go to graduate school. I decided that I was going to take a year off and follow the grateful dead and work of ski season in aspen. So I took my golden retriever Jack, I bought a night I bought, I bought an old Volkswagen bus uh and the two of us set off across the country before I left my mentor in school challenged me and he said, hey eric, what can you do to make the trip more meaningful? I mean I get, you’re gonna go party and play, but you’re already good at that, What can you do that would provide value on this journey to yourself and others along the way. And he really dropped a great question that changed the trajectory of my life. And so I thought about it and I thought about my life and I thought about how my father was crippled and I grew up in a house like I did and I thought about wanting to, to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled and what that would look like and how can I do that? And then I read this quote that said to know the road ahead, ask those coming back. And that quote stuck with me and I realized that if I wanted to live an extraordinary life, the quickest and best way that I could do that would be to go to talk to people who are already living extraordinary lives and study the common traits motivating factors and guiding principles that enable them enable everyday people to, to produce extraordinary results. And so I had this vision that I’d call people and then I set off on this cross country adventure not knowing if anybody would say yes or that I could do it. But at least it gave my, my, my journey a sense of purpose. So I set off across the country and maybe some of you might have seen me and not remembered because how I funded my trip is, I would pull into rest areas with my Coleman stove and I’d set up my dog and my bus and I jammed some jam some tunes and I sold what I called back then sexy kind grilled cheese sandwiches made with love for $1 off my Coleman stove for gas money and dog food and people would walk up to me and just tilt their head like a dog that’s confused and just like, what are you doing? And I would tell them that I graduated from school and I’m traveling around the country and I’m calling it the most powerful people in the world and taking them out for a cup of coffee and how I’m funding my travels by selling sexy kind grilled cheese sandwiches. How many sandwiches would you like? And uh, some people called the cops, uh, some people, uh, you know, turned the other way and other people thought what I was doing was cool and they started buying my sandwiches. And then not only did they buy my sandwiches, some people, they would give me $5 because they thought, what I was doing was cool or 10 or 20. And, uh, a few times I even got some $50 bill once, uh, $50 bills for two pieces of bread and some cheese, which is pretty incredible to get $50 grilled cheese sandwiches. I guess that’s, that’s what a college education, right? That’s, that’s what a college education is all about. Learning how to market $50 grilled cheese sandwiches,

[00:17:57.29] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications crisis Communications, did you see the pr and communications train wreck That was in the Los Angeles City Council just very recently racist remarks, followed by attempted apologies that managed to work in justifications, ignorant comments, tone deaf remarks. Do you have a crisis? Communications plan? Do you foresee a potential crisis even worse? Can you head it off? Turn two can help you with either of those with anything related to crisis? Communications, either planning or taking care of one turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. Now, back to wake up excited. Go to bed fulfilled.

[00:19:29.68] spk_1:
So, I got a chance to get to talk to, you know, travel and make some money and then people were giving me, uh, when they found out what I was doing, they gave me names and numbers. Even the people that they knew, oh my God, what you’re doing is cool. We, you know, I was telling them, I’m bridging a gap between young people and wise elders and, and do you know any wise elders. And then people would say, oh, you know who you need to meet is, you know, max Cleland, he’s a Georgia Secretary of State and triple Amputee and a war hero and he’d be great. Or you can go to my cousin’s Bernie Marcus, the founder of Home Depot, you could, you could meet him, he’s really great. And my, my my my sister in law is Kathy thornton who’s a United States astronaut, the first woman in space and you should meet her. And so all of a sudden I got names and numbers of people plus I was cold calling people and and calling corporations and calling all types of folks and saying, can I take you out for coffee. And then lo and behold, I was interviewing some of the most extraordinary people on the planet and then was encouraged, what what what are you doing? And then, uh, realized that we were capturing the living oral history of extraordinary people. And then we were encouraged to get a video camera and document our travels and then we went across the country for four years, shot over 500 hours of footage interviewed over 200 of the most extraordinary people, from Billy Crystal to jerry Garcia to jimmy carter to Maya Angelou to on and on and on and met all these incredible people documented uh, their wisdom and expiry and then ended up making a feature film that we got a deal with Disney and then that movie, we sold our short, we made a short film first and we sold it at Sundance Film Festival and then our feature one South by Southwest and then off to the races. We went and we had a hit on our hands that were in theaters all across the country to sold out shows. Oh, you have it right there.

[00:19:50.66] spk_0:
So we’re

[00:19:51.37] spk_1:
really blessed.

[00:19:53.19] spk_0:
I, my DVD winner the audience award at the Atlanta Video Film and Video Festival 2001, winner of the most memorable film award, South by Southwest Film Festival 2003. You gotta get your, you gotta get your copy of the DVD. I’m holding it up for, we’re only folks are only hearing us, but I’m holding up my copy for, for eric The journey, The film is the

[00:22:49.57] spk_1:
journey, the journey film. Yeah, you can, you can, you can get access to that at Living Wonder dot com or eric Sapperstein dot com. Yeah. The movie, it turned out that, you know, it was in Barnes and nobles and Hollywood video and uh, netflix and all that. And it really, it’s impacted people all all around the world and it’s, it’s been a real blessing. There was a little bubble gum and shoestring operation. Uh you know the little book, the little engine that could I think I can I think I can. I think our movie was like that and then it ended up really um inspiring and and impacting a lot of people and why I brought up the movie in the first place was that you were sharing with me, how you shared um wake up excited and go to bed with these really incredible clients of yours and the impact it had. And I was saying that that phrase came organically uh to me, I was I had done this travel. I we I picked up three other travelers and we went around the country interviewing people and it’s the story of our own dynamic and what it was like following a dream and and and being on this adventure and meeting all these iconic people. And then there was a moment where I was in a we were camping in the snow up in Oregon and I just looked at the camera, Kathleen, our cinematographer puts the camera on me and it’s towards the end of our journey before we went home to even watch footage and figure out how to make it into a movie. This was well before that there was just while we were still on the road and Kathleen put the camera in front of me and and started asking me, you know, things that I’ve learned from taking this adventure and I just looked at the camera and said, I just have one question to ask people and that is are you waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled if you are you’re doing the deal and if not what are you waiting for? And that became the last line of the movie. Uh and I’ve been living it ever since and asking people that question everywhere I go because the question is so powerful to me because it’s either one or the other. Somebody looks at that question and goes either I am waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled and that’s a celebratory life and other people ask themselves that question and they’re like dang it. I’m not and if you’re not, then it’s time to set a course to make that happen. Life is such an unpredictable thing we just learned from inside the pandemic and everyone, it’s our birthright. I believe it’s our birthright to wake up excited and go to bed fulfill.

[00:23:17.11] spk_0:
We have control over a lot of things in our life. The folks, we surround ourselves with the choices we make personally and professionally um are, are are thinking, you know, you you you captured with you know our language using empowering language but our thinking about ourselves or the way we talk about ourselves and you know, these are things that we all have control over and including those big decisions in life. You know, you you can make the life that that you aspire to, but you just have to be conscious in in, in lots of things.

[00:23:43.32] spk_1:
Yeah, I think being conscious is important. I mean conscious is a big word, a scary word of, you know, an out their word, but I think ultimately what it means is being present. Yeah,

[00:24:12.55] spk_0:
thoughtful about your, your decisions, your choices, your actions. Again, the folks you surround yourself with. I think, I think the folks you surround yourself with, you know, uh do you, do you, do you spend your time with folks who are, who lift you up, who challenge you, who you whose company you enjoy or is it more folks that you know, are troubled that bring you down that are, that are needy. Uh you know, maybe some folks in your life that you don’t have a choice about, but a lot of choice, a lot of folks in your life you do have a choice

[00:24:18.76] spk_1:
about

[00:24:19.83] spk_0:
and I

[00:24:21.63] spk_1:
think strongly

[00:24:22.29] spk_0:
about the people you surround yourself with and spend

[00:24:38.30] spk_1:
time, I agree with you. I think the principal, the principal there is like attracts like, so uh let’s say I’m a cynical, jaded, frustrated person and, and and of course I’m thinking, you know, I need to hang out with more uplifting, powerful, inspiring people. But the uplifting, inspiring, powerful people aren’t gonna wanna hang out with you

[00:24:48.45] spk_0:
because

[00:25:58.26] spk_1:
you’re that person is taking energy instead of contributing energy. So it really comes down to who were being in the world and to to step up our game. I mean, both personally and professionally, I think one of the things that I’m doing now as as you know, as a coach, we specialize in coaching executives to achieve meaningful impact and amplify their personal and professional narratives and to amplify our narratives. That’s what we’re talking about here is amplifying the the higher our narrative can go up, the more joyous and fulfilled our lives are people are people are it’s amazing to me, it’s just incredible. Even top executives are using language that’s off putting, you know, in our world right now, in corporate America, we’ve become a culture that’s talking about inclusion, empathy, belonging, psychological safety, organizational health, all these things are important to create a very powerful culture and most organizations and their executives are using language that is outdated, They’re using language that’s Disempowering. They’re using language that’s aggressive. They’re using language that actually makes people recoil and they’re good people. The people that I’m talking to are good people, they’ve got great ideas and a powerful vision and they want to do good in the world yet, the language they’re using is actually sending people further away and if we start

[00:26:20.02] spk_0:
like what eric give us an example or two of of this Disempowering type language

[00:26:38.23] spk_1:
great uh here’s here. We talk about distinctions a lot. One of the distinctions that we talk about that’s super powerful as a leader is our people talking from the eye versus the you.

[00:26:44.23] spk_0:
Mm

[00:26:46.05] spk_1:
Most people, what do you think I are? You

[00:26:50.56] spk_0:
what do most people do I’m

[00:27:05.20] spk_1:
talking about? So there’s a leader could be a leader. Leader. An organization gets up and starts talking to his people for her people about what’s going on in the organization. Is that leader using I language or you language?

[00:27:11.35] spk_0:
I think they’re probably using more I language. I would like to hear more. We language

[00:27:20.34] spk_1:
you can use we language that would be a nice evolution. Uh, I would say just from from our research and what we see is that

[00:27:29.17] spk_0:
you

[00:27:30.32] spk_1:
all, you

[00:27:31.41] spk_0:
you people

[00:27:34.38] spk_1:
are ewing all over each other,

[00:27:36.07] spk_0:
people, You

[00:28:15.24] spk_1:
know what you need to do. You need to follow this. You need to you need to you need to you need to you need to you need to, you need to And then even if it’s good, even if it’s well intended, they’re using the word you on people and people get frustrated. They get they get it, they feel attacked, they feel confronted, they feel like you’re judging them the word you is challenging. Way better for an executive to turn around and say, hey, this was my experience, this is what I need, this is what I would like to see happen. This is what I want and that way I get to tell my story and you get to be enrolled in my story, possibility in my story.

[00:28:17.25] spk_0:
What about inclusive we language we together

[00:28:25.26] spk_1:
even better. Even better. Even better.

[00:28:26.35] spk_0:
But it’s

[00:28:34.64] spk_1:
careful. We as a difficult one because we can be a crutch. People can use the word we when they really mean you and it’s different. All right. Get a little dangerous.

[00:28:38.26] spk_0:
Okay. You have to be sincere about doing things together. Moving ahead

[00:28:44.94] spk_1:
together

[00:28:45.67] spk_0:
together. Yeah, be sincere to be genuine about that. All right. Um, here’s

[00:29:44.39] spk_1:
another one. People say people say, you know, a lot people will be in a conversation to go. We learned we learned this the other day when we were, we were interviewing an I. T. Guy Yeah, to work with us and we took him to dinner and we had a piece of pizza and then he was sitting there. We just learned, we just, we just learned, you know, we were just thinking about this distinction came up with this distinction around I versus you. And then uh my my lady and I were at dinner with this guy and he starts telling this story to us. He’s like, hey, you know when you’re in Vegas and then you’re out partying all night and then, you know, you drink too much and then you pass out and then you find yourself in a hotel room with a black eye and there’s two dudes there that you don’t know and then your wallet’s gone. You know what I’m talking about and Sarah and I are.

[00:29:45.84] spk_0:
So we we

[00:29:47.38] spk_1:
we we actually we actually don’t know what you’re talking

[00:29:56.22] spk_0:
about. I can’t say I’ve had that experience to know it happened in Seattle once but never in Las Vegas,

[00:30:34.98] spk_1:
right? Not for Las Vegas only in Seattle. But what what happens in Seattle stays in Seattle so we don’t talk about but you get what I’m saying. So that’s just one example. But there’s so many examples around and also just you know, another one is that executives and in all of our lives, most people are talking about what they don’t want to have happen. We spend an awful lot of time talking about what we don’t want. I don’t want us to screw up. I don’t want us to miss the deadline, I don’t want us to do. And most people are always talking about what they don’t want. And to me that’s language in the off position. Talking about what you don’t want. Powerful inspired conscious leaders are talking about what they want. They’re actually speaking their possibility into the world. They’re inviting people to go where they want to. But that’s what a leader is is to lead us towards where we want to go together instead of talking about what we don’t want. Most people are talking about what we don’t want. We’re coaching executives to talk about what they do want

[00:31:20.53] spk_0:
10 years ago I I asked you what what it was that what was the number one thing that distinguished those who are successful from those who were not successful and I’m gonna ask the same thing, not as a quiz, but I’m just curious if if over time this this may have evolved because you’ve done hundreds of interviews since we talked 10 years ago um what what do you think is the number one thing that uh distinguishes those who are successful from those who are who are not,

[00:33:02.23] spk_1:
I’m remembering our conversation from 10 years ago. Uh I’m remembering that question and I’m remembering the answer that I gave them so I’ll give the answer I gave them and then see if a new one pops up now. But the answer I gave up then was when you asked me what separates those who achieve from those who do not. My answer back then was based on an interview that I had with the president of coca cola Donald Keogh who was arguably the most successful uh Ceo in the world with one of the most recognizable brands in the world. And I asked him that question and I said you know, Mr Keogh what separates those who achieve from those who do not? And like many of the guests, he looked at me and said well eric what do you think it is before, before he’d answer he’d asked me and then I’m thinking well it’s having a vision uh finishing what you start having good communication skills rattled off a few answers and he goes oh those are all part of the soup that you know makes it all possible but what I think and then again just the most powerful recognizable uh ceo of in the world at that time one of them looked at me and he said eric what separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. We think asking for help is a sign of weakness and it’s actually a sign of strength and that our vulnerability and willingness to learn and enroll people into a vision is what makes visions come true.

[00:34:39.04] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. It’s the I. T. Buffet. You remember this, you choose what you need, what fits in your budget and you leave the rest on the buffet line, in the crushed ice like multi factor authentication, firewall, additional security beyond the firewall help desk an I. T. Assessment with their I. T. Info in a box. You choose what’s appropriate for your org. The info is on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant to mention deeper. Let’s return to wake up excited. Go to bed fulfilled. That is what you said 10 years ago I’ve remembered it, I’ve used it from time to time and you brought vulnerability into I I absolutely agree that vulnerability in a leader is a sign of strength, a sign of confidence that they’re willing to expose themselves and perhaps their organization’s vulnerability to others, rather than wrapping up tight and appearing invincible and all knowing, which is which is an uh an unachievable state. Um so has it has it evolved you do you feel now that was Mr Keough’s answer and you adopted it? Do you think it’s it’s changed you do you personally see something different through all the through all these through this decade? Since

[00:35:02.88] spk_1:
you know, I think now what I think, I think that is, no doubt, I think you just said some really great things that want me asking for help is great. I think vulnerability. I think we wanna we wanna follow people who are accessible, approachable that they’re that I I can relate to them.

[00:35:23.74] spk_0:
I think that yeah

[00:36:28.08] spk_1:
and and yeah, I was I was with somebody yesterday who was talking about his executive teams and he’s like man, I love those people, I would do anything for him. I wanna, you know, and it was that and I know why they want to do that is because the people there are right there with them. They’re not better than they’re willing to do the work. They’re willing to get dirty with them. They’re willing to admit their own foibles and their own mistakes and they’re willing to and I think creating a culture of vulnerability like that breeds more vulnerability, it inspires more vulnerability and it creates community. Um I think my answer now uh what separates, those who achieve from those who do not now are leaders that genuinely care about the people they’re serving? Make really care, care about your health, your vitality, your wellness, your happiness. Uh and really yeah, are willing to listen. I guess that would be that, I guess that that’s my answer. People, what separates those who achieve from those who do not is one’s ability to listen well

[00:37:06.82] spk_0:
and then you’ll hear people’s uh you’re you’re here, you’re here, you’ll hear other people’s vulnerabilities, other people’s needs. And I think the genuine excelling leader, can I want to say something strong that accommodate can can support those, support those needs here. Those vulnerabilities work with them, help people uh excel in their strengths and build up their build up their weaknesses, their weak areas. And

[00:39:07.04] spk_1:
and as a guy who studies communication, I think there’s three things that want to happen in every communication exchange with someone that people want to be number one, they want to be seen two, they want to be heard and three they want to be appreciated. And if we can do those three things in any communication exchange, we’re winning. And I think being a good listener enables that to happen, I get a chance to really see somebody and we talked about being present, and that’s a big one just being able to be with people be with people wherever they are looking in the eyes, being able to have empathy and compassion and and understanding and really hear people hear people’s stories even the ones that are different than yours even with people that that you disagree with, can you still listen and hear them and let them so be able to be seen So you get a chance to really listen and hear them heard. You get to really take in what they’re saying. Even if you don’t agree, even if you don’t think it’s the right path, even if you’re not into it but still give people dignity and respect for sharing and then appreciate them, value them, understand them, be grateful for them. And then even if it’s like as a leader people come and tell me, oh you know here’s a great idea then you know, it may not be the idea that I think is the right time at this moment and here’s another you know, great distinction that people are using right about communication distinctions around language, most people use the word. But a lot if you go and study people right now a lot of people are using the word but and they’re using the word but all the time even when they’re comparing two ideas they actually believe in. And so for me, most people that are leading right now when I talk about language being off putting some leaders gonna hear somebody’s great idea that they think is awesome and they’re gonna go yeah, yeah, yeah. But and then they’re gonna pivot all that does is diminish what that person just said, shut them down and make it feel like they’re not as important. And now let me tell you what I think is important. The whole idea of improvisational comedy. It’s based on the principle yes and

[00:39:20.78] spk_0:
yes

[00:40:30.80] spk_1:
and way better than no, but most people out there are no buts if you’re a nobody and you’re listening to this right now, I invite you to give up No, but and start becoming a yes and it doesn’t cost you anything and it’s more inclusive. It’s more honoring and it builds community. No, but just does the opposite. So if I listen to somebody pitched an idea to me, that’s not really what I think is the right time for me. I’m gonna be like, wow, that’s fascinating. And and then I’m gonna pivot versus no. But let me tell you what my ideas and and you talked about humility. We talked about vulnerability. Another thing of humility, right? That goes with asking for help. But it’s also just willingness to, to not always have all the answers. We don’t have to pretend that we have all the answers. And so for us, uh being humble, somebody pitches me an idea and I don’t think it’s a great idea at the time that they pitch it. But two weeks from now their idea could come into full focus and it was a great idea. One of my guiding principles. I like to play with is uh I like to remind myself this phrase could be good, could be bad too early to tell.

[00:40:35.94] spk_0:
It’s it’s open minded, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s possibility

[00:40:39.65] spk_1:
related.

[00:40:46.82] spk_0:
There’s something that could be, it could be fantastic, but you know, we just don’t know yet. I

[00:40:47.21] spk_1:
dare say Living in Wonder,

[00:41:24.10] spk_0:
let’s talk about what a beautiful I want to talk about the book. Live in wonder. Quests quotes and questions to jump start your journey first. Just reading the title, I happen to love alliteration. Uh this show I have Tony’s take to uh if you get jargon e we have jargon jail. I love alliteration. You’re not, you’re not a jargon. I’m not worried about that at all for you. But I do put folks occasionally in jargon jail. I love alliteration. So, quest quotes and questions to jump start your journey. That’s a great subtitle of the book for me. Um live in wonder what, what I know the book is available at eric Sapperstein dot com. But what are gonna be? What are people gonna learn about, livin wonder these handwritten pages, What are we gonna get?

[00:42:32.94] spk_1:
Uh thank you so much. You put people in jargon jail. I’ve been really blessed my neighbors, Woody Harrelson and we spend a lot of time doing all kinds of fun shenanigans and he’s one of the funniest and smartest people I know and he’s an incredible storyteller and a phenomenal joke teller and it’s a privilege to be around him and our friends and they’re always cracking jokes and telling great stories and it’s, it’s, it it’s almost nerve wracking to be around such high quality, um, uh, presenters and performers. The image I have is when I was, you know, jumping, jumping rope, there’s like, you know that rhythm, there’s a rope and everyone’s talking and sharing a joke and then, and then it’s going and then all of a sudden, you know, I want to tell a joke and then kind of jump in and if I tell a good joke, you know, the ropes still going and you know, and I didn’t miss a beat. Other times you jump in and all of a sudden joke doesn’t really go well and then everyone kind of just like, you know, it’s so, it’s so loud in a room like that because everyone is so good at telling jokes. So it’s just like, and then all of a sudden you put people in jargon jail, would he likes to put people in joke probation. All of a sudden he looks and I get there, it’s like eric joke probation and all of a sudden I’m, you know, I get joke probation a lot.

[00:43:00.55] spk_0:
Yeah,

[00:43:13.04] spk_1:
sometimes, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s a high risk game, but you know, for the times, you know, it’s like being a professional baseball player, you strike out a lot, but every once in a while, you know, you hit the ball and people, people invite you back to dinner, you

[00:43:13.77] spk_0:
can offer woody joke jail.

[00:51:26.51] spk_1:
Well I thought, you know, my favorite thing is to put him, he’s so good at it. And every once in a while he flubs and I get to all of a sudden go, oh joke probation for you. And uh, it’s, it’s really fun. It’s uh, one of the things that, one of the principles that, that I’ve really come to live by is a rising tide lifts all boats and being around, you know, I live on a farm now, uh, with uh, a bunch of people that, that live on the farm, we have 280 acres out here and it’s just extraordinary. I do. And, and, and just being in community has taught me so much. I, I grew up in a condo in san Diego and and moved to Atlanta and I’ve lived in venice beach California and I’ve, I’ve been relatively isolated even though I’ve been, you know, popular created things. I’ve lived in big cities where you know, I might know a neighbor or two, but for the most part, I’ve, I’ve, you know, been been more independent now. I live in a place where I am with people and that has been another big growth for me is 2-1 live where we’re planting food uh, in feeding people and eating food from the land and learning about sustainability and regeneration and soil and uh some really healthy practices and what it’s like to, to be in community and and how communities as well as organizations and not for profits and families thrive is by contribution. We become a society of consumers. Most people like to take, you know, what’s in it for me. And really thriving communities, thriving organizations, thriving families are, are, are shifting that they’re upping the language and elevating the story to instead of what’s in it for me, they’re asking themselves, hey, how can I contribute? How can I make this better? What can I do to provide value? And that has been a secret sauce for sure. To answer your question about the book live and wonder, uh, that came, that came to me because of my travels. I was um, I didn’t have it early on when you met me. I was really um, coming off of meeting all these extraordinary people and getting invited to give speeches for Nike and coke and general mills and ups and ADP and United Way and all these. And I was doing opening and closing keynotes in front of, you know, big audiences and I was, I think one of my, my talents is that, you know, I can look at everyone that I’ve interviewed and I can tell you at least one, probably two or three lessons that that person taught me and I could go give a speech and I can interview the executives of a company, find out what values are important to them going in my arsenal of stories of people who have met and then shuffle the deck, pull out a picture of this person and a picture of this person and a picture of this person and then that’s my speech. I can share these really great stories that will relate to the organizational culture and inspire them to even do better when I would be done with these speeches. Uh, you know, the audience would be really gracious and um, they would, they would engage in questions with me and they would, you know, ask me different things about the movie or what I shared about what not. And every once in awhile there’d be somebody who would raise their hand and and say, hey eric, you know, I really get that you’re, you know, you did this cool thing, you met all these cool people and you’re able to share all these great stories and lessons from leadership lessons and communication distinctions from all these wise people that you’ve met and you’re doing a great job of it And I loved it and I’m just curious, you got to go on this adventure and you did something that most people never get to do and you got access to all these big brains, uh, an extraordinary people. What did you deduce that was, that was the commonality. I, I know that you can tell me a story about jimmy carter when you met Spike lee or whoever it is, but I want to know what, what did you learn and for years I would be up there going, you know what, I don’t know that I have that answers yet. And it was a little awkward because I wanted to have an answer, but I didn’t have it. And it took about six or seven years after the journey. There’s a great, there’s a great line by Khalil, the poet, Khalil Gibran, who said as the mountain to the climber is clearest from the plane, as the mountain to the climber is clearest from the plane. What that means to me is that when I was on the mountain traveling, all I could see was what was in front of me. And I only had the perspective of what was in my immediate surroundings and things became clear when I got to leave the mountain and be on the plane and look back up and see where I traveled. And I think that’s for all of us, we get a chance to, you know, in the moment, we can only do the best we can in the moment. A lot of wisdom, A lot of clarity, A lot of understanding comes after the experience is over then we get a chance to kind of look back at where we traveled. Then that’s where we get to deduce some really great takeaways. And so for me it took a while, it took me six years of being on the plane, look back at the mountain and then all of a sudden I was on a surf trip to Costa rica and I had an epiphany and the epiphany was that the thing, the greatest commonality, the greatest, aha. The thing that all these extraordinary people, whether they were a world renowned architect, a world renowned horse trainer, they were a president of the United States, they were a ceo that took an idea from a garage to being super successful. The common out or a rock star, all the commonalities that these folks had in common. The number one thing is that they still were excited and open and willing and innovative and exploratory about life. They were just willing to like they, they showed up in a meeting and they’re like, I don’t know, let’s try that, Let’s figure this out. What do you think? And it was just, it was this big light bulb that went on going, wow, there is this idea that we were all born with a sense of wonder. It’s the thing that is our life force. People who live and wonder have their light turned on and it’s bright and we like to be around those people, it’s contagious, it’s uplifting. It’s inspiring to be around people that are still learning and growing and then there’s a whole bunch of other people who are like, know it alls and let me tell you how that’s not gonna work and you know, that’s never gonna happen and blah blah blah and they’re talking even that what I’m saying, the example I just gave those are people talking about what they don’t want, it’s never gonna happen. It’s not gonna work. Those are people talking about what they don’t want. It’s the negative part versus talking about, hey, I’m not, I’m not coming from some fairy dust land, making anything, making a movie, writing a book, doing a speech. It takes work. And it’s not like I just get to go poof just because I’m using inspiring language, things happen, man, it’s still hard. I get to go into a meeting instead of going, this isn’t gonna work. I can go into a meeting and say, hey, you guys are all very smart, can you all look at this idea and share with me anything that you think might be in the way of our success and then we get to explore those things that might be in the ways that we can turn those into the on position. But instead of going, oh, that’s not gonna work. And let me tell you why it’s not gonna work or people that go into a meeting and say, you know what, yeah, you know what the problem is, I don’t care about what the problem is, I want to know what the solution is and let’s figure it out and then maybe we won’t even, maybe not even work, but at least we’re focused on the solution. And then if we discover it’s not it it’ll reveal something else that will take us on another adventure that will bring us closer to the thing we want. Anyway, so this whole idea about wonder is that the people who are waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled are people who are living in wonder. And wonder. The thing about wonder is that it’s not something that needs to be taught. It just needs to be remembered.

[00:51:29.57] spk_0:
We

[00:52:03.96] spk_1:
just have to get quiet enough to remember what it was like when the world didn’t take away our joy. We got to reclaim our power instead of, you know, all the cynics and all the people that said, you couldn’t do it for all the people that were mean spirited and all the people that hurt our feelings. Just be able to go, okay, well I’m not gonna let you win. I’m going to reclaim that sense of wonder. I’m gonna go back out in nature and I’m gonna sit and look at the sunset or I’m gonna go look at the birds or I’m gonna go look at a stream going by and remember how magnificent this place is. I’m gonna stand up. I’m gonna just right now, I’m gonna stand up and put my arms up in the air and lean back a little bit and go woo and remember that I’m floating on a ball that’s rotating through space. Right now.

[00:52:17.40] spk_0:
We are

[00:52:18.13] spk_1:
sitting on a ball rotating through space and we’re, it’s incredible. Or that even right now, you and I are talking through zoom technology. This is crazy. I can see you, you can see me, you’re in, you’re in the Carolinas. I’m in Maui hawaii and we’re having this conversation. This is incredible.

[00:52:35.44] spk_0:
I like to think

[00:52:36.15] spk_1:
about, man. I, I send a piece of mail to somebody and all of a sudden within a couple of days or weeks it arrives somewhere. That’s incredible

[00:52:46.16] spk_0:
to get on a

[00:52:46.60] spk_1:
plane and space for

[00:54:21.28] spk_0:
55 cents for 55 cents. That piece of mail. It’s time for Tony’s take two, 18 reasons why bequests are the place to launch your planned giving program. It’s on the blog at planned giving accelerator dot com. Uh, give you a couple of them. There are 18 of them in the article. Like the one that says, bequests are the most popular big planned gift by far, um, that you don’t have to educate your donors, that you don’t have to educate your staff. That these gifts by will charitable bequests will build your endowment. So there’s five of the 18, 5, 5/18, whatever that fraction. You can’t reduce that fraction down, but 5/18. All right. You think I would give you an even third, right? Your listeners, you deserve, you deserve 33%. So let’s go with number six out of 18 deeper donor relationships. There’s a third of them. That third and the other two thirds you will find on the blog uh planned giving accelerator dot com. You click blog. That’s how you get to the blog. Of course. So I hope you check that out for the 18 reasons. And that is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, even more than boo koo this week, but loads more time for wake up, excited. Go to bed fulfilled with eric Sapper stone.

[00:57:00.94] spk_1:
I think one of the things about wonder a close if you want to get access to wonder in your life, really start pushing and leaning in, not pushing, but leaning into more gratitude. Being grateful, Being grateful for being grateful for all. Being grateful for technology, being grateful for your friends, being grateful for your wife, being grateful for your husband. Being grateful for your employment, Being grateful to be of service, Being grateful that you have all four arms and legs that you can use. Be grateful for your ability to communicate, Be grateful, be grateful for it. All gratitude brings direct access to a sense of wonder. A sense of a sense of marvel. A sense of astonishment. So you ask what the what the book will do. So the book came out of this epiphany of going, okay. I just realized that the people that are extraordinary in this world have maintained, celebrated and share their sense of wonder with each with each other in the world and that’s powerful. And then I realized, oh my gosh, I now have a responsibility. I just I went on this quest, I went on this adventure, I went to the top of the hill, I figured out this idea of, wow Wonder is something I went and checked in. I went back and interviewed my guests and checked in because I didn’t, if I go back through all the transcripts, there wasn’t wonder really talked about one, because I didn’t have that in my lexicon to even talk about it and to and this is the real fascinating part is that the people that I were, the people that I was interviewing, they didn’t bring up wonder because it wasn’t a success strategy, it was who they were being. Mhm. They weren’t using wonder as a way to be successful, they were just being wondrous. That’s just innately who they were. And it was just how they rolled through the world. And then I got to go back and check and I remember talking to um steven Tyler from, you know, the band Aerosmith and I, and I leaned into his ear and I and I said, you know, uh you know, I’m just curious, you know, I’m exploring the idea the idea of the important role wonder plays in all of our lives and he looked around and and just looked back at me and uh with sparkly highs and just said, oh I could write a whole book about that and it is true. And I went and talked to all these incredible people and they said, oh my gosh, you’re right. Eric wonder has been a major part of who I am in the world. I thank you because I didn’t even think about that as part of my thing. It’s just who I am being and my invitation is definitely to, to to to to reclaim your sense of wonder so that you can attract more wondrous people in your life.

[00:57:50.05] spk_0:
I’d like to give you a chance to drop some more names so that folks have an even wider, you’ve already talked about jerry, Garcia and steven Tyler and jimmy carter uh and Henry Winkler. Uh I’d like folks to get a sense of, you know, your of your the breath of your, breath, of your your your interviews, your your folks that you’ve we’ve tapped the minds of

[00:58:08.64] spk_1:
uh let’s see, I just interviewed Daniel Pink, who was an amazing author, he was a speechwriter for Al Gore with left Politics and then started writing really incredible books. He wrote a book called dr he’s got a new book out um around regret. He’s very powerful. Just interviewed him. Just interviewed Pat Simmons from, from the band, the Doobie Brothers. That was great. He’s the guy that wrote, oh Black Water, keep on,

[00:58:24.11] spk_0:
keep on shining on black, Okay,

[00:58:27.66] spk_1:
yes, drop a

[00:58:28.85] spk_0:
couple more drop a couple more.

[00:58:55.48] spk_1:
I well, I just I just interviewed him, just so you know, I just interviewed him. He was just inducted into the Music Hall of Fame. They were just on their 50th anniversary tour. And uh and I asked Pat Simmons, I said uh what are three things you’ve learned about songwriting? And Pat said three things I’ve learned about songwriting, Number one, uh keep it simple, Number two, uh write about what, you know, your own experience, basically. And number three, don’t bore us get to the chorus.

[00:59:06.61] spk_0:
Mhm,

[00:59:09.42] spk_1:
brilliant. Okay, who else? Who else have I interviewed?

[00:59:13.57] spk_0:
Uh

[00:59:31.87] spk_1:
we interviewed, just interviewed Diana Nyad, who’s a world record swimmer. She’s incredible. Um And let’s see, I’ve interviewed the founder of the Ritz Carlton. I’ve interviewed the chairman of UPS. I’ve interviewed um oh yeah, how

[00:59:40.99] spk_0:
about going back, going back to uh your your your four years in the van comes to mind there. I know jimmy carter was part of that, part of that cadre,

[01:03:03.23] spk_1:
jimmy, jimmy carter was incredible. I interviewed uh back then Governor Ann Richards, who was incredible from texas. I interviewed ken Keesey, who wrote one flew over the cuckoo’s nest and merry prankster. I interviewed Billy frank Jr, the head of the indian Fisheries Commission. I interviewed hazel Wolf, who was a 98 year old environmental activist poet, Maya Angelou. Um yeah, that’s a pretty good. It’s been incredible. I’ve interviewed so many people and and those are all iconic names, you know? But I’ve also interviewed farmers and I’ve interviewed teachers and I’ve interviewed a lot of people that you’ve never heard of. Um and uh yeah, and and I and I also interviewed, you know, thousands of young people when I was on my journey. The whole premise of the journey film was to bridge a gap between young people and elders. So I interviewed all kinds of young people from all you know, every area of life and would would interview them and ask them what they were struggling with and then figure out, you know, what that was. And then I’d go to the top of the food chain and go, hey, my this is something my friends are struggling with. Do you have an answer for that? And that’s how we bridge the gap between those that want to learn and those that want to teach. I don’t think I fully answered your question about the book. You know, you’re you’re saying what what what does the reader get from the living Wonder book? You know, what the what the reader gets one the epiphany of of living Wonder that that was that that was the origins of why I felt inspired to write the book. And then the book is about the reader and you know, less about me, more about the other as one of my principles and it was the books less about me more about the other, more about the reader. I tell you a little bit about my story in the beginning. Uh it’s quest quotes and questions to jump start your journey. The quest part of the living wonder book is I realized that I could write I can write a book about my story in my life and all that I learned and that’s cool or I can write a book that is less about me more about the other. And it gives people who read the book a chance to take their own journey. And that was more compelling to me. Instead of me writing and telling you about my journey, I wanted to inspire people to take their own journey. And so the book, the opening part of the quest is for anyone that’s reading the book to pick five people in their life That are people that they respect and admire and are looking at that person’s life going man, I want more of that you know and and it could be anything, it could be, I just got married and I’m newly wed and you know bill and Nancy Schmidt down the road have been married for 60 years and they’re cute as a button and I want somebody to write that person’s name down and then go interview that person. Have you and your couple go interview that wise person to find out the values they live by the struggles they’ve endured and what advice and counsel they give you to better prepare yourself to model their behavior if you want to become a ceo go interview Five C. E. O. S. And I wouldn’t just go interview anybody. I’d go interview really successful. Happy uplifting whatever it is that you want to emulate and go talk to them if you want to build a boat go talk to boat builders whatever it is, still pick five people in your life that you admire and respect that you want more of. And instead of sitting back coming up with you know I can’t do it. I don’t know how to do it. I don’t have the credentials I’m not sure blah blah blah blah. Be more empowered and go look this is what I

[01:03:20.92] spk_0:
want. I’m

[01:04:33.03] spk_1:
not sure how to get there. I’ve never done it before. Okay I’m gonna go look in my world whether it could be your neighbor or somebody famous doesn’t matter to me. Pick five people in your life that you want more of that in your world and have the courage to ask him out for a cup of coffee and learn. And so that’s the first part is that everyone gets a chance to pick people in life that they admire. That’s the quest. The quotes are all these quotes that I’ve used to keep my own heart and mind open. So so I shared those quotes. They’re really inspiring and uplifting to people and then the third part is the questions and they’re all they’re all the questions that I used to interview my guests? So you can use those same questions to interview somebody or you can come up with your own people use the book to actually go do all kinds of amazing things that we’ve gotten stories from all around the world where people actually go take the book, they pick somebody, they say I just got this book, they go interview that person and their life changes. It’s been phenomenal and it’s been uh it’s been a really a pleasure to have written a book that has impacted so many people. So I if it’s something that’s, that’s calling to anybody that’s listening, it’s it’s a yeah, it’s it’s it’s it’s based similar to my movie. It’s based on the principle to know the Road ahead. Ask those coming back then anything you want to learn about, anything is an inspired conversation and a cup of coffee away

[01:04:59.93] spk_0:
and it’s it’s jump start your journey. I mean, you had the journey, you had the journey of the film, you had your journey, its quest quotes and questions to jump start your journey. Could you, could you share one of

[01:05:06.56] spk_1:
your, that’s me, that’s me using that, that’s me using your in a good way. I hope your

[01:05:09.02] spk_0:
journey. What’s what’s one of your quotes? You you have a bunch of, you said you have a number of quotes that you live by. Can you share one of your quotes with us?

[01:05:22.40] spk_1:
Uh You want you want a personal quote that I’ve written or a quote from the book. Which one are you asking?

[01:05:27.75] spk_0:
Oh well, I was looking for one from the book.

[01:05:30.96] spk_1:
Those

[01:05:31.74] spk_0:
are personal. Those are personal quotes though, aren’t they in the book?

[01:05:34.74] spk_1:
No, those are quotes from people

[01:05:36.98] spk_0:
from other people that you’ve you’ve used. Okay, uh Can you share I want I want folks to be inspired about the book, share a quote. Can you share a quote from the book?

[01:05:47.45] spk_1:
I can hear. Let me uh

[01:06:00.66] spk_0:
Okay, well while you do that, because I put you on the spot now, you gotta go actually, he’s going to his book. What what better source for quotes from the book than than the book. And uh we go ahead.

[01:06:21.97] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m thinking about which uh I think this is this is my favorite. I think this has to do with uh one of the things that I learned on the journey is

[01:06:25.05] spk_0:
how

[01:09:11.47] spk_1:
important it is to be yourself. And that most people uh that’s that’s a challenge. Most most people are so highly influenced by other people’s impression of who they are, that they would sell out their sense of wonder, their authenticity, their sense of adventure, all kinds of things to conform uh to what other people think and the people who get up excited. Go to bed fulfilled. Live extraordinary lives are more committed to their principles. They’re more committed to their values. They’re more committed to who they are and what they say they’re going to do in this world and they can’t please everybody. It’s one of the common things that there’s no doubt you cannot please everybody. And when I set off to travel the country in my van selling grilled cheese sandwiches and asking that I was gonna call up people and take them out for coffee for a long time. I had to be ostracized and judged and uh ridiculed and had to endure people’s uh projection onto me. It wasn’t, doesn’t feel good, it doesn’t feel good to be to have that happen. And if I allowed myself esteemed to be contingent upon what other people thought of me, I’m done. And so, having the courage to speak, my possibility into the world is something that I invite everybody to have. It’s it’s to be able to just be you unapologetically and to trust the process being you. And this is one of my favorite, this is how we opened the book. Um there’s an author, super uber successful author, Dr Wayne dyer, who, that was another one of my interviews. Uh I came out to visit him. He lived here in Maui and uh, I came out to visit him and then I ended up staying uh and moving from venice beach to Maui after that visit. But he’s extraordinary. He passed away, but he was extraordinary. And he said this about Oprah Winfrey and this is how I open up the living wonder book. Uh many years ago, Oprah Winfrey was interviewed about her life many years ago, Oprah Winfrey was interviewed about her life and asked whether she had known that she would become one of the most powerful women in the world. She explained to the reporter that when she was a little girl, someone asked her what she wanted to do with her life. She answered by saying that she didn’t know, she just liked talking to people. The person quickly retorted, well, you can’t make a living doing that.

[01:09:40.75] spk_0:
We can learn a lot from the negative, the negative, the down the deputy downers uh, around us and to uh ignore them and and move ahead with our own journeys. Uh you know, you you seem to like three’s what what is this series? Three things.

[01:11:12.59] spk_1:
Three things, you know, after somebody who has interviewed people for the majority of my my life and certainly my my career and had made a movie, you know, I would interview people and spend days interviewing them and then have to go back and watch all that footage. I was looking for a way to to capture the living oral history of extraordinary people and do it in a succinct and refreshing way. And what we came up with was This idea of three things and I didn’t realize that at the time it was really, again, a real, just organic unfolding. I’m a storyteller and I study stories and I asked people to share their stories and I think about the basic tenants of storytelling, the basic tenants of storytelling is a set up, a conflict resolution, a beginning, a middle and an end. And if we adhere to that structure, we’re telling a good story and knowing that I thought, well why don’t I help that along? I’ll ask people to share with me a three things question so that they frame it with, here’s number one, here’s number two, and here’s number three. And it turns out that that is a magical formula that we are able to tap into some of the most iconic minds and ask them what their three things are and they nail it out of the park and they share three incredible insightful messages and they’re sticky and they’re powerful and they’re

[01:11:34.19] spk_0:
uplifting

[01:11:59.89] spk_1:
and that’s what we’ve created. So we’ve created a new series called Three things uh, with eric’s Apperson and I’m interviewing iconic legends and uh, we’re, we’re capturing that now and we’re cataloging a whole bunch of those. And I think we’re gonna begin releasing those, uh, in early 2023. So many folks are uh, uh, you know what, right now, we’re in negotiations with a few folks uh, with some agents and managers to figure out the the outlet of where it’s going to ultimately be, what I’d like to do is if anybody has been inspired by what’s happening today in our chat and we want to be connected to the three things series to come to eric Sapper Stone dot com and sign up for our newsletter. Our fans will get it first.

[01:12:27.88] spk_0:
Okay, okay. And the reason I say you, you seem to like three things threes because you have the series, three things I asked you had to live in one house, you have to wake up excited and go to bed fulfilled. And you cited three things, you have a game called, Three things

[01:12:42.86] spk_1:
you

[01:12:53.05] spk_0:
want, you want, you want to tease the game, This is all at uh eric Sapperstein dot com or, and, or Live in Wonder dot com. But I, I connected connected to the game from this Eric Sapperstein site, but I think it goes over to living wonder but a game called three things and then, and then we’ll wrap it up. What’s the three things

[01:13:22.96] spk_1:
That you’ve been so sweet? I’m so, I’m so grateful to be asked to be on the podcast with you. I’m grateful for our friendship. I’m grateful that we got a chance to meet 10 years ago and that we get to still be in relationship and check in with each other now and you know, thank you for including me into your world and uh, one of my favorite sayings is when you drink the water. Uh, remember who dug the well, so thank you for digging such a huge well and being of service to so many organizations. Uh, tony You’re, you’re, you’re a bright light in this world.

[01:14:26.68] spk_0:
That’s very thoughtful. Thank you. And uh, to give you back some of a phrase that you used, I think you are contagious, uplifting and inspiring is Erik Sabiston. Alright, so you can learn about the series. Three things for that. You go to ERic Sapperstein dot com. Uh, the book Live in Wonder quests, quotes and questions to jump start your journey. Also, ERic Sapperstein dot com for the game. Three things I believe that’s at Living Wonder dot com, but you can get to one from the other, uh, the movie, the journey. That’s at eric Sapperstein dot com. I believe you gotta get the DVD the journey. So, eric what a pleasure to be connected for all these years and to uh, Have another and even much longer conversation than than our 10 or 12 minutes we did in uh, in 2012 is a real joy. Real pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for what you’re doing. Thank you for sharing yourself your ideas. Thank you.

[01:14:42.03] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you. Um, uh, let’s not wait another 10 years for us to connect.

[01:14:47.88] spk_0:
No, well not you’ll, you’ll be on, you’ll I’ll have you back because I think people are gonna enjoy hearing from you.

[01:15:33.22] spk_1:
Well what if you know if anybody out there, anybody that’s been listening. Thank you so much. Thank you for the role you play uh in the nonprofit world, I think you are champions uh and uh light workers and uh change agents. And I just I I applaud all y’all just thank you for for for contributing and and making the world a better place. And if there’s anything I can ever do, whether it be uh coaching uh you or coaching your executives or giving a virtual talk or a a talk in person to your organization, uh please call on me and I’d love to help and be a part of your journey.

[01:15:46.44] spk_0:
Erik Sabiston at Erik Sabiston and eric Sapperstein dot com next

[01:15:46.85] spk_1:
week.

[01:16:44.06] spk_0:
I’m working on it. I promise I won’t let you down if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But you know, they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this great music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for October 10, 2022: The Smart Nonprofit

 

Beth Kanter & Allison Fine: The Smart Nonprofit

That’s Beth Kanter and Allison Fine’s new book, revealing the potential of smart technology and artificial intelligence for your nonprofit, and the entire sector. Beth and Allison are with us to share their thinking.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:44.94] spk_0:
Oh, I neglected to mention, you hear me, you hear me do an intro to the show and then we’ll chat uninterrupted and then I’ll do the outro and then I could say goodbye Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of infra occlusion if you made me chew on the idea that you missed this week’s show. The smart non profit That’s Beth Canter and Alison finds new book revealing the potential of smart technology and artificial intelligence for your nonprofit and the entire sector.

[00:00:56.53] spk_1:
Beth

[00:00:56.87] spk_0:
and Allison are with us to share their

[00:00:58.74] spk_1:
thinking

[00:01:28.01] spk_0:
on Tony’s take to debunk those top five myths of planned giving, sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper.

[00:01:32.30] spk_1:
What

[00:01:32.54] spk_0:
a pleasure to welcome

[00:01:33.29] spk_1:
back

[00:01:41.59] spk_0:
Beth Kanter and Allison Fine to the show. Both been on multiple times, although you know them uh they they they each deserve their own special

[00:01:47.79] spk_1:
introduction.

[00:01:49.33] spk_0:
Beth Kanter is an internationally recognized thought leader and trainer in digital transformation and well being in the nonprofit

[00:01:56.46] spk_1:
workplace.

[00:01:57.94] spk_0:
She was named one of the most influential women in technology by fast company and received the N 10 Lifetime achievement

[00:02:04.82] spk_1:
award.

[00:02:05.48] spk_0:
She’s at Beth Kanter and

[00:02:08.97] spk_1:
Beth

[00:02:30.78] spk_0:
Kanter dot org. Alison Fine is among the nation’s preeminent writers and strategists on the use of technology for social good. She’s a member of the National Board of Women of Reform Judaism and was chair of the National Board of Naral Pro Choice America Foundation and a founding board member of Civic Hall. Allison is at a Fine and Alison Fine dot

[00:02:34.94] spk_1:
com.

[00:02:36.18] spk_0:
Bethan Alison welcome back to nonprofit radio

[00:02:40.69] spk_1:
Thank you for having us. tony

[00:02:43.75] spk_0:
congratulations on the book.

[00:02:47.60] spk_1:
It’s very exciting. The response has been tremendous so far.

[00:02:52.45] spk_2:
So both of our 4th book and 2nd collaboration together.

[00:02:56.91] spk_1:
Second,

[00:03:20.05] spk_0:
yes, you’ve co authored the network non profit if I’m not mistaken. Alright and fourth book for both of you. Congratulations all around. I would actually like to start with the last sentence of the book. If every nonprofit in the sector can transform itself into a smart non profit we can transform the world end quote. Uh does anybody want to claim authorship of that particular sentence? Is it possible for co authors to remember who wrote each each sentence throughout the

[00:03:28.19] spk_1:
book?

[00:03:29.76] spk_0:
Not, no,

[00:03:31.30] spk_1:
not possible, but so

[00:03:33.14] spk_0:
then All right, Allison, what what uh what does it take to become this uh ideal. Smart non profit

[00:04:33.67] spk_1:
So a smart non profit tony is an organization that understands deeply how to stay human centered and by that we mean putting people first, internally and externally using the most advanced technology organizations have ever had at their disposal. This this, you know um family of technologies like ai machine learning robots and so on and by doing that tony we can stop the incredible hamster wheel of business frantic business of organizations just playing a daily game of whack a mole with email and telephone and ongoing meetings. All of that road work can be done by the technology, freeing up people to build relationships and tell stories and build communities and solve problems and do the deeply human work that most of us came to the sector to do in the first place.

[00:04:45.71] spk_0:
And you you used the word business that was not business, that was business

[00:04:52.15] spk_1:
in the U.

[00:05:08.43] spk_0:
S. Y. Yes. Okay. Um Alright. So there are many uh considerations for becoming a smart nonprofit and some some important roles of leadership that that come out in the book. Um Beth anything you would like to add to the to the intro to our conversation.

[00:05:25.86] spk_2:
Um Sure. What Allison laid out so beautifully is the key benefit of that nonprofits get from embracing this technology and that is the dividend of time and that time can be reinvested either in building better relationships with donors or or clients or stakeholders or also could be reinvested in the staff to free up time. So we’re not. So as you said, the busy work takes up a lot of time but it also takes up a lot of cognitive overload and maybe if we had more spaciousness we would be less exhausted. Um and and more inspired and less burnout.

[00:06:15.66] spk_0:
Yeah the that that dividend of time is throughout the book. And uh well except that hypothesis for now I have I have I have some questions about that, some little skepticism about that, but for now we’ll accept that the dividend of time will indeed accrue to people who work in in in smart nonprofits and to to the to the organization generally. Um Are

[00:06:18.75] spk_1:
you skeptical that it can be created or are you skeptical that people will know what to do with it once they created it? No,

[00:06:27.95] spk_0:
well I don’t wanna I don’t I don’t want to challenge right off the bat but

[00:06:33.36] spk_1:
uh

[00:06:52.52] spk_0:
skepticism that that it that it can be realized. Not not that people will know what to do if it does get realized, but um yeah well let’s come back to it, let’s leave the hypothesis uh as as as perfectly fair and and uh something to truly aspire to because there are as you say, and as you lay out mostly in the last chapter, um there are great places that the sector can go when we realize this uh this dividend of time. Um

[00:07:10.37] spk_1:
let’s

[00:07:19.93] spk_0:
talk a little about, you know, some of these elements of being a smart non profit Um beth let’s stay with you for you know, human centered. What what do you what do you all mean by by that?

[00:08:00.23] spk_2:
Well I guess we use another term in the book um called co batting and really with that I like that because it’s like figuring out what the machines can do best. Right that the automation technology there’s certain tasks that the technology is really good at doing. And those are things like analyzing large amounts of data and automating kind of rote tasks. But there are there’s stuff in our jobs that humans should do and always do. And that is the relationship building, taking the donors out to lunch. Like you were telling us you took a donor out to a nice restaurant recently. You know that’s not something the automation is going to do for you. Um and being creative having empathy, making intuitive decisions. And so when we use this technology leaders really need to understand like what is the right workflow and always keep humans in

[00:08:19.06] spk_1:
charge?

[00:08:21.28] spk_0:
What what’s the what’s the

[00:08:25.05] spk_1:
how

[00:08:25.33] spk_0:
can we how can we make sure that we center humans in in adopting this this smart technology?

[00:09:29.83] spk_2:
Well I think the first step is to ask to talk to them and get their feedback and their input in before you even like grab the software off the shop? It’s not about that at all. Um you really have to start with. Um you know, what are the points of pain? What are the exquisite pain points that we want to address by adopting this technology and getting feedback from the end user’s whether that staff clients donors and then, um, setting up a, you know, an understanding of what the journey is, what the workflow is and where you divide things. And then you begin to go look at software tools and uh, and and find vendors that are aligned with your values and once you’ve, or technologists that are aligned with your values and then once you’ve done that, you can begin to start with pilots and uh, an iteration on it before you get to scale. This is so different tony than social media, which both Allison and I have talked to about where we’re encouraging people to just jump in experiment fail fast. What we’re saying with this technology is that it’s really important to, um, to go slowly and to be knowledgeable and reflective about it.

[00:09:53.74] spk_0:
And reflective. Yes, reflective is, uh, something else I wanted to ask about. So what you read my mind fantastic being reflective Alison, what is why, what’s that attribute about for the, for the smart non profit

[00:11:37.25] spk_1:
So this is, um, something I’m deeply passionate about tony Um, I don’t know if, you know, I had a first career as a program evaluator and uh, it’s very, very difficult to get, particularly smaller nonprofits who are so busy and so under resourced to take a step back and not only think about how is what they’re doing, Getting them closer to the results that they want to do, but how can they improve over time and we need them to understand not only the human centeredness that beth just spot on, you know, outlined, but in particular tony how are we making people feel internally and externally about our efforts? Are we making people feel seen and known and heard or and this is particularly important when we talk about smart tech, do you feel like a data point, just you know, a cog in large machinery? Um that’s just getting lost um and we know that feels terrible, everybody has experiences of feeling being made to feel small by organizations and nothing is more important in our work, particularly in the social service and human service areas of making people feel known and heard and yet it is just the sticking point for the sector that it is the thing that gets left off and again we’re back to the business of work, so we want people to be reflective of. Is this the right technology, are you solving that exquisite pain point that you had? How are you making people feel when machines are now doing what only people could do until just a few years ago, you know, through smart tack and is it solving the problems that you set out to solve?

[00:12:00.50] spk_0:
Uh Yeah, I I admired that idea of, of reflective because you know, it’s it’s closely related as you said to being human centered uh you know, thoughtfulness um and it goes to like preparation to um it

[00:12:23.51] spk_1:
also goes to leadership right? You have to have a leadership within an organization that isn’t so brittle that they are open to learning about how to improve and there are too many organizations that are so fearful of being seen as not doing something well that they won’t openly and wholeheartedly be reflective about their activities.

[00:12:42.57] spk_2:
And it’s also about the culture too, and we’ve used this word a lot dizziness and when we have a culture of business and people are multitasking and there’s back to back meetings. They don’t have that space to be reflective. So um and and that’s so required to um to make the changes that you just read about the last line of our book, you know, to get to that place

[00:13:23.79] spk_0:
and we’re gonna talk some about the leadership. Uh you talk about being trustworthy and empathetic, we’ll we’ll we’ll get there. Um Another, another attribute you you mentioned um beth is being knowledgeable, knowledgeable about the tech and I think it’s limits too. But what would you you say it you’ll say it more eloquently than I will.

[00:13:33.54] spk_1:
I

[00:13:33.74] spk_2:
think we can both say that both Alice and I can say both eloquently, but I’ll kick off with um when we say knowledgeable and we’re and we’re saying this to leaders, we’re not saying that you need to know how to code. Um you know, roll up your sleeves and write the code but you need to understand um

[00:13:51.97] spk_1:
what goes

[00:13:57.94] spk_2:
into the code and whether it’s biased um the data sets it’s been trained on and you need most of the time. A lot of leaders in the nonprofit sector when it comes to technology it’s kind of push back, you know sent down the hall to the I. T. Department and we’re really asking leaders to lead in because there’s you know potential challenges which Allison is really great at explaining.

[00:14:16.56] spk_1:
Alright

[00:14:18.19] spk_0:
well Alison explain those but then maybe you can tell us a story too about

[00:14:22.12] spk_1:
uh

[00:14:22.80] spk_0:
about like the degree to which a leader needs to be knowledgeable.

[00:15:38.16] spk_1:
Uh So we’re talking about um this family of technologies tony that is very quickly becoming embedded in every single part of organizational life. Right? This is not a you know fundraising software, smart tech is going to be embedded in the finances and the back office and the coms and development and everything. And the idea of having machines automatically paid for things or screen resumes or screen people for services is a fundamental shift in who is doing work and how it’s being done. Right? So when you understand that premise, you have to have the C suite leaning into this to underst and what it means when your staff is doing different things than they used to do and when people on the outside are engaging with machines instead of people, these are fundamental shifts. So one area. Um Well too I just mentioned that are so important is if you are automating the screening of resumes, then the assumptions that some programmer put into that system and the resumes that were used to test it for looking for certain kinds of employees with certain kinds of skills are going to be biased. I can tell you that right now, right. They are going to have a bias. And largely that bias is going to be against, you know, people who are black and brown or or women.

[00:15:57.35] spk_0:
It’s gonna be in favor of white men.

[00:16:40.39] spk_1:
Exactly. Because that is what employment looks like. Those are the questions we use those are the expectations that we have and the programming was done most likely by a white man. Um So if you don’t know what to ask. The creator of that software that you’ve just bought that is going to quote save you a ton of time looking at resumes. Um but also screen out um people of color and women then you’ve just an incredible disservice to your organization and the same if you are providing housing services or food services to people in need, the same kinds of biases are going to be found in these systems, right? This is a systems problem. And that’s why as Beth was saying, this is not a technical problem. This is not something where you say go I. T. Guys go find us a good product. You know, they’re not looking out for your organization’s interest in equity. That’s what leadership is for right, setting those moral standards, setting that compass and making sure that your values are aligned in everything you do and how you do it as an organization.

[00:17:59.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You both are very clear in the book that this is a leadership issue, not a technology issue. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They have another interesting newsletter this week advocating for the use of cliches. Their argument is that cliches shouldn’t be ruled out entirely but used judiciously. Like not don’t go overboard either. Whatever you think about cliches, my point is they’re thinking about them. They’re thinking about how best to communicate your story because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now back to the Smart non profit any any stories, can we can we tell a story at this point? Alison

[00:18:23.00] spk_1:
sure there are, there are social services agencies around the country um that we’re using smart tech systems to provide um food assistance. And only after the system had been in place for several years. tony did they find out that it was literally leaving out black people from the system. In the opening chapter of our book, we talked about a screening tool called V. I. Speed at uh

[00:18:39.80] spk_0:
three times.

[00:18:40.55] spk_1:
I

[00:18:42.50] spk_0:
just kept saying it. V. I. S. P. D. D. Yeah.

[00:18:50.81] spk_1:
Yeah the I stood at that was programmed by um why white man with very good intentions that unintentionally was leaving black people out of getting priority housing in hundreds of communities around the world, four years before the social workers finally got heard saying, we know this tool doesn’t work on the ground, we’re using. It, it is not screening people correctly because the questions were biased against people of color who have so much trouble getting into public systems.

[00:19:32.89] spk_0:
You you have three caveats sort of that that you uh you make very clear and bias is one of them. So we’re just talking about that um responsible use is another another of the three beth can you can you talk to uh what you’re thinking about responsible use and sort of thinking through problems?

[00:19:59.01] spk_2:
Um Sure. Uh it’s kind of like taking a Hippocratic oath that you will do no harm. Right? So the example that Alison just laid out, obviously there was harm done by keeping people screening people out for important services. Um so so it it who’s um non profits to do uh something that we call threat modeling? I know it’s a big scary term and word and it comes from the internet cybersecurity but

[00:20:11.51] spk_0:
didn’t frighten me.

[00:20:17.94] spk_2:
Okay, well it might frighten some people we have had that reaction, um but it’s just basically

[00:20:19.33] spk_0:
not profit radio It’s very savvy listeners here.

[00:20:21.72] spk_2:
Absolutely,

[00:20:23.24] spk_0:
this is this is a higher echelon audience than you’re

[00:20:25.77] spk_2:
right, of course, your

[00:20:26.90] spk_0:
other podcast. So please

[00:20:28.49] spk_2:
threat

[00:20:29.80] spk_0:
modeling is not intimidating to us.

[00:20:31.51] spk_2:
Okay, so threat modeling is actually having a brainstorm of all the possible things that could go

[00:20:36.33] spk_1:
wrong.

[00:20:42.33] spk_2:
Um if you uh implement this technology um what what harm could be done to the end user um if they if they were given um let’s say you have a buy right? And in fact the Trevor project is an example of an organization that did this threat modeling. They wanted to they had a problem. Um they had, you’re familiar with the Trevor project,

[00:21:02.88] spk_0:
explain, explain what what

[00:21:04.80] spk_2:
okay, so they provide uh

[00:21:07.10] spk_0:
counseling

[00:21:23.42] spk_2:
to yes to L. B. G. T. Q. Youth, you know through text and online phone, if you will. And so they’re dealing with kids who are in crisis and a whole, you know, um continuum of issues and they have councilors that there who are volunteers but they’re trained in this very specific, very sensitive type of counseling, especially when young people are coming to them in crisis. And so um so the problem was, you know, they needed to scale um and get more counselors in there so they could help more clients. And so they decided that they wanted to use a bot,

[00:21:44.37] spk_1:
which

[00:22:33.01] spk_2:
is, you know, automated response. We’re all familiar with thoughts, you know, buy a pair of sneakers online or trying to make a doctor’s appointment and you encounter a bot. And so rather than replace the counselors on the front line with this technology that won’t be human center, it could be potentially dangerous. Um especially with a sophisticated self learning bot, which could learn through, you know, and learn through interactions and say the wrong things and that could be devastating to an end user who’s in crisis. But what they decided to do was to use the bot for training simulations. So they took data from real conversation, stripping all privacy information and they use this to train their bot, which was a highly sophisticated software that was self learning. But they said that this spot will not be on the front lines with anybody, will only interact with um for training simulations. So what this did was free up a lot of time from the staff in terms of delivering trainings to more quality control. So they were able to get more counselors on the front

[00:22:51.82] spk_1:
line, so

[00:23:01.15] spk_2:
it’s an example of being human centered, but it’s also an example of that dividend of time and and repurposing it um and also uh making sure, you know, so it’s doing no harm. Yeah,

[00:23:15.16] spk_0:
and that and that responsible use. Okay, okay. Um the other the other caveat you have, so you have, you have three caveats bias, responsible use and privacy. Talking about ethical standards who’s uh, who’s who’s most interested in talking about privacy Allison Fine, raised their hand first.

[00:25:08.25] spk_1:
Yes, I did. Um so this is not a new issue, right, We’ve been dealing with digital privacy um for a long time, but as a sector haven’t really ever gotten our arms around it. tony right in that we has a sector have just subscribed to. I think we think the lowest expectations from the commercial side, which is you try to get as much personal data as you can write. You ask for those emails and you leave. You might let somebody unsubscribe from a newsletter, but you don’t delete their emails. Right? And a much, much more ethical model we feel is in the european union, the G D P R. I can’t remember what that stands for. But the idea is that, um, the people, the consumers, constituents, donors, volunteers are in charge of their data and they get to tell us how they want to be engaged with us, right? They get to tell us that they want to be forgotten entirely from our systems. They don’t want to be on any of our list. They don’t want to be in our systems. And that flipping over of the model we think is very in keeping with being human centered, right? It’s very in keeping with the values that we’re trying to, uh, in view in this whole concept of smart nonprofits, right? That we shouldn’t fear, um, asking people what the value we provide to them is. Right. Do we brought enough value in having their email for them to want to stay with us or are we just turning through again, as we said in the beginning, turning them through systems like the cogs in a great big machinery. So we think the smart tech is going to generate even more data than the last 10 years of digital tech, which is astonishing to think about kind of mind blowing to think about

[00:25:18.86] spk_0:
Because I think didn’t you cite 90 90% of the data that we have is in the past two years?

[00:25:34.41] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. It is remarkable to explode. And so we need to be, we need to raise the bar on our ethical considerations on the use of data and the relationship that we have with our constituents. They need to trust us more. The fact that the nonprofit sector along with other sectors, the degree of trust is going down. tony is, is not good and we ought to hold ourselves to higher standards of privacy and data protection.

[00:26:52.20] spk_0:
Two weeks ago, Gene Takagi and I talked about that exact subject in a show that I called in nonprofits do we trust? It was just, it was just two weeks ago. It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies, your tech is an investment invest wisely. What’s the state of your office infrastructure? Should you give remote or hybrid employees tech allowances or just give them the equipment outright or both or neither. How’s your disaster recovery plan? How’s your backup working? four D. Can help you with all these investment decisions, check the listener landing page tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But you know they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to the smart non profit Do we know what the impact has been on, on business? Uh,

[00:27:02.62] spk_1:
coming

[00:27:13.65] spk_0:
out of the G D P R has, it, has it had the devastating effect on business that the business community in europe was, was claiming when they were, uh, lobbying against it or trying to, you know, trying to weaken it. Do we, do we know I’m putting you on the spot. Do either of you know, whether that’s had such a devastating impact on european business?

[00:27:25.95] spk_1:
It’s been fine. And, and look, companies, commercial companies here have had to put, uh, more effort into privacy issues when they do work in the european

[00:27:37.36] spk_0:
union,

[00:27:40.59] spk_1:
you know,

[00:27:40.96] spk_0:
California

[00:27:41.82] spk_1:
for Nya are holding people to the same standards now. Um, but it hasn’t had a huge negative impact on business,

[00:27:50.70] spk_0:
you know,

[00:27:51.44] spk_1:
it’s fine.

[00:28:01.23] spk_0:
Okay, okay, now this, this smart tech artificial intelligence we’re talking about, this is widely used commercially, Right? I mean, isn’t this, I don’t know, fundamental to amazon google the 24 hour chatbots that beth mentioned, you know, you see a little about 24 7, the likelihood of that being a live person at four in the morning is very, very small. This, this is, this is ubiquitous in the commercial sector,

[00:28:22.79] spk_1:
isn’t it?

[00:28:23.82] spk_2:
Yes, it is, but I think we’re at this point um, uh, Allison likes to call it the heel of the hockey stick where it’s going to the cross of this technology has come down. It’s becoming democratized and it’s becoming more accessible to non profits of all sizes.

[00:28:41.29] spk_0:
You

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
don’t have to be nasa to use this.

[00:28:51.56] spk_0:
All right. Now to keep yourself out of jargon jail. You’re gonna have to explain the, uh, the hockey stick on a graph metaphor. So go ahead, tell us what X and Y are and why it looks like a

[00:28:54.63] spk_1:
hockey stick.

[00:28:55.50] spk_2:
Okay. It’s okay. So imagine a hockey stick, right. Or I should do it this way. I’m looking at my

[00:29:02.71] spk_0:
nobody can, nobody can see your hands, but we all know what

[00:29:04.91] spk_2:
happened, but

[00:29:05.98] spk_0:
not sophisticated enough to know what hockey sticks.

[00:29:20.11] spk_2:
It basically shows. And this happens with technology. Um, is that, you know, early adopters use it because it’s very expensive, experimental. It’s unproven. And as it, the technology improve and the cost comes down and it becomes more accessible to consumers and small businesses into organizations. The adoption rate starts to skyrocket. So it goes up. So you see sort of a flat line and then a steep hill or steep mountain increase in

[00:29:35.49] spk_0:
X’s time. And why is technology adoption?

[00:29:39.42] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:29:40.76] spk_0:
Yeah. You’re better at

[00:29:41.91] spk_2:
charts than I am.

[00:29:43.65] spk_0:
Okay, well, you, you, you invoked the metaphor of the hockey stick. You gotta, you gotta be able to stand behind it now.

[00:29:48.41] spk_2:
Oh, I guess I guess I should.

[00:29:50.13] spk_0:
All right. All right.

[00:30:31.21] spk_1:
It’s not just nonprofits adopting this now. tony I would say that it’s all medium and small sized organizations in every sector that now has available to them, technology that they couldn’t afford just a few years ago. And that’s, that’s what the difference is. The technology is a brand new, it’s just become very affordable for smaller organizations. However, as I mentioned before, just because it’s available and just because it’s affordable, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right stuff to grab off the shelf. And that’s the part that’s that’s the impetus for us to write this book. You need to know what you’re grabbing and using, Yeah,

[00:30:42.60] spk_0:
the availability to small and midsize shops, I think is through is throughout your book. Um, let’s tell another good story. The one with the, uh, uh, the repurposing of the school bus routes to deliver food instead of drop off Children during the pandemic because Children were no longer going to school. So they repurposed school busses to drop

[00:30:55.43] spk_1:
off meals.

[00:30:57.87] spk_0:
Who knows that story best.

[00:30:59.76] spk_2:
Yeah. So, you’re, you’re talking about research at Carnegie Mellon University and you’re talking about Pittsburgh school system and

[00:31:07.96] spk_0:
Pittsburgh school system.

[00:32:38.23] spk_2:
United Pittsburgh school district or whatever it’s called. Um, so this was at the very beginning of the pandemic when we were in the shutdown and um, and kids that are in schools that are in poorer areas relied on the school lunch program to get their meals right. And so if schools were shut down and, and, and students were tele community, there’s no way to get this food. So they used a machine learning algorithm to re engineer the must routes to take the food to the kids in the most efficient way. It’s really interesting how during the pandemic, you know, there was a little bit of a silver lining. I know it’s awful. But there was a silver lining for some nonprofits to really push and to innovate. And I think food banks in a way we’re forced to do this. Um, there’s another example in boston of the boston food bank completely automating its inventory and it’s stocking to become a lot more efficient. And at one point they even were experimenting with having robots come in and stock the shelves because most of the food banks, volunteers are older and they were told not, you know, during the very early part of the pandemic, not to, you know, come in because it could be dangerous to their health. Um, and that’s also a great kind of idea story, use scenario to think about to do the threat modeling that we were talking about earlier. So let’s just say for example, food banks. So let’s let’s bring in the robots and have

[00:32:38.99] spk_1:
them stock

[00:32:40.47] spk_2:
the shelves, you know, so, but you also have to think about that volunteers who are coming in, um, to do this type of work. Those were their lifeline in terms,

[00:32:50.89] spk_0:
yeah.

[00:32:51.75] spk_2:
How are they going to feel and how are we going to redesign the volunteer job and how are you going to encourage them to come back in and make them feel safe and welcome into the food

[00:33:02.13] spk_1:
bank. Right.

[00:33:02.86] spk_0:
Less feeling less unless they feel useless and replaced by machinery. And this is all the organization thought of us. And now they now it’s just a bunch of metal replacing us metal and plastic parts. So yeah. Alright. Also being human centered, reflective,

[00:33:59.75] spk_1:
but that that’s that’s the dividend of time, tony if you can say all right, we used to have these uh, you know, two dozen volunteers who came in and were stocking shelves all the time. And now we’ve automated that task. What is it that these, you know, lovely people who wanted to help could do that would be so, you know, deeply human and centered as you say, and uh, you know, in in improving our relationship with our clients. Maybe they could be calling clients. So what else do you need? You know, what else is happening for you or just saying hello to somebody, Right. I mean, there are all sorts of wonderful human things that those people could now do if they want to um that they never had the time to do before. That’s the that’s where this is again, a leadership issue of really thinking about how do we want to use our human capital in the next chapter of organizational development?

[00:35:40.16] spk_0:
Okay, I think that’s an excellent example of the dividend of time that we’re we’re about a half an hour in or so. So let me uh let me try my, my skepticism out on you that we I’ve heard this before, that there was gonna be, there were promises of increased productivity and increased time. I’m thinking of smartphones, we’re going to give us more time and they certainly make us more productive, but I don’t I don’t I don’t see studies saying that we we have so much more time. I see that time being absorbed now you might say, well maybe I’m making your case for you that time being re allocated. Unthought feli unwisely. But I don’t I don’t see people walking around feeling that they’ve got so much more free time since the widespread adoption of smartphones 10 years ago or so. Um Another video conferencing, you know, whatever teams uh zoom, I hear more about zoom burnout than I do about feeling that I’ve got so much more time available because I don’t have to go to meetings. I don’t have to go to the office. Um You know, so those are a couple of the paperless office. That was another paper, the promise of the paperless office was going to be so much so much more efficient for us and I think that was gonna save time because we wouldn’t have to file papers and it was gonna save office space because we wouldn’t need storage and these promises. Um I sound like a whining 60 year old, but these promises have not come

[00:35:44.78] spk_2:
to not

[00:35:46.09] spk_0:
come to fruition in the

[00:35:46.96] spk_2:
past. So I’ll take what I’ll tackle the zoom fatigue thing and, and then Alison can kind of related to smart text. So

[00:35:56.32] spk_0:
I guess I should say uh, it’s not whining. I don’t want to sound like a curmudgeonly 60 year old.

[00:36:00.94] spk_2:
Well you’re not a curmudgeon and you never whine.

[00:36:03.79] spk_0:
All right, Thank you.

[00:36:52.45] spk_2:
So, so if you take zoom fatigue, right? Um, and that came from stanford University and basically what is causing it is the flight or fight response that is going on in our bodies when we see the grid. I mean, there’s some ways to mitigate it. But what happened is is that nonprofits like many businesses all of a sudden were forced to pivot to becoming remote distributed teams. We never really work like that. So the idea was, let’s just all make, get a zoom meeting. Let’s just take everything we did in person and just plop it online. And what happened because everybody was doing this there was, we didn’t really evaluate how do we collaborate effectively. What do we need, what can we do? Like a synchronously so we can make use of our synchronous or real time experience. So we can make meetings shorter. There’s research from Microsoft that shows that if you have stacked back to back meetings without taking a break your level of stress just stays the same throughout the day. And so if organizations were reflective, knowledgeable

[00:37:07.39] spk_0:
and kind of prepared, they

[00:37:16.17] spk_2:
Would have looked at and said, Okay, so let’s look at how we can, you know, stick to a culture of maybe a 20 minute meeting with 10 minute break in between or have a zoom number per day that we know that we’re not going to schedule more than x number of meetings, which would then think to how do we rethink our work? Um So it’s not just the technology, that’s true, the technology doesn’t create the dividend of time. It’s a combination of the technology with thoughtful leadership, reflective leadership as we’ve been saying, that can then change the culture.

[00:37:41.25] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:37:51.31] spk_1:
And let me let me let me build on that tony So we have an entire generation of digital technology That was intended to make us go faster, right? That was that’s what it has done. We are at a point now, we’re checking your email on average, 74 times a day is quote normal, right?

[00:38:04.53] spk_0:
We’ve gone from uh let’s say facts to email, to texting to to to um slack.

[00:39:36.27] spk_1:
We we we get that this technology, smart tech ai automation is not that technology, it is a fundamentally different kind of technology that’s intended to do things instead of people not to have us do more, But as Beth just said, it’s only going to do that. If we implement it thoughtfully, right, if we end up in the same place where we are checking on the box 74 times a day shame on us. The stuff has the potential to relieve us of so much administrative wrote work that just eats up everybody’s day. And if we can co bott well and have the bots do what they’re supposed to do and the people do what they they’re supposed to do, we can actually re humanize work. But as you know we’re just at the beginning of this process a lot of this is theoretical and that’s again is why we wrote this book instead of jumping in and grabbing the stuff and adding it onto your existing dizziness, frantic nous culture, we need you to stop and think and figure out how to do this. Well you know

[00:40:34.55] spk_2:
there’s some research that’s from M. I. T. Sloan school that looked at the effectiveness of this technology and um and where it is effective is if people don’t just focus on the efficiency of it that is to, okay well we can get all of these tests done way more efficiently because people aren’t cutting and pasting from different spreadsheets. Um But we’re not gonna fill up people’s with more work to do so it’s not to go faster, it’s really to be more effective and so if this technology can be implemented and it can kind of relieve some of that stress and pain of overload then that has an impact on morale and people feeling good about where they work and there is a synergistic impact that the study found that where efficiency and kind of effectiveness, let’s work together. So there’s so that can have more people feel better about their work, they do better, they get better results, they’re less likely to quit, there’s less likely to be turnover and the organization moves forward in a in a better way with better outcomes.

[00:41:09.01] spk_0:
Right, Okay. Alright. And that’s that’s if if it’s adopted with leaders consciously being human centered, knowledgeable, reflective, prepared. Uh and we’re gonna get to trust and empathy. Um All right, well you may have moved me from skeptic to uh cautious optimist.

[00:41:16.14] spk_2:
I was gonna say, what are you still are you still a little uh

[00:41:34.32] spk_0:
you know the history, the history has not has not borne out that leaders have adopted the new technology reflectively thoughtfully and prepared. Lee um It’s just so I’m just basically,

[00:41:36.18] spk_2:
pardon

[00:44:17.51] spk_0:
Me, they never had its 2022. Now they have the book, they didn’t have it when we went from facts to email or email to slack or email the text and text. Alright, Alright. No, no it’s okay. Um so leaders please uh keep listening. It’s time for Tony’s take to debunk the top five myths of planned giving, that’s my free webinar coming up. It’s Tuesday october 18th at 10 a.m. Pacific one o’clock Eastern I say free webinar but it’s not free for everyone. It’s free for you because you’re gonna use checkout code tony T. O N Y couldn’t be simpler. I think you have to put it all in caps too. I’m not sure about that part but do it all in caps to be safe. So I’m gonna be talking about debunking these insidious, pernicious top five myths of planned giving, I hate them, I loathe them, they are loathsome, that’s why I loathe them because they keep people away from planned giving like the one that says plan giving is gonna ruin all your other fundraising. It’s going to take away from your annual gift and your major annual giving and major giving. Debunk. We’re gonna debunk that and for others as well. So join me very simple to sign up. Of course. You go to our gracious host site. We are thoughtfully hosted by N. P. Solutions. So you go to N. P. Solutions dot org. You click workshops, you’ll find me in the list and then when you’re checking out use that code tony do it in all caps and it’ll be free for you. Not for everybody, but for you, I hope you’ll be with me. Let’s debunk these Hateful Top five Myths. That is tony stick to we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the smart non profit with Beth Canter and Alison fine. Let’s let’s talk some about the leadership. That’s perfect. So you mentioned the three things I really want to talk about trustworthy empathy uh, and curiosity and I have to get this in. If you had an H then you could have spelled out tech trustworthy empathy, curious, high minded

[00:44:18.40] spk_2:
human, human centered,

[00:44:26.89] spk_0:
human centered. You need, you got the T. E. C. In the book. I was looking where’s the H. All right. Uh, what does it look like for leaders to be to be trustworthy? To adopt Trust?

[00:44:34.88] spk_1:
Who

[00:44:38.64] spk_0:
who who’s the best, who’s the most trustworthy explainer of of trust?

[00:44:43.00] spk_1:
I

[00:44:43.18] spk_0:
don’t care. It could be either one. Okay, Allison Trust is yours. We got to go in order and then if we can come up with an H uh centered, but that you already have that in the in becoming a smart non profit That’s that. You already covered that one. So you can come up with another one. Um Herculean, heroic, heroic, Herculean, Right. Trust Alison, Why why is this trust?

[00:46:58.76] spk_1:
Important? So organizations are making a bond with people in their communities, right? We are, we are asking them to come along on a journey with us, uh, to be clients to be donors, to be volunteers, to engage with us in some way and trust is the stuff that’s sticking us together, right? It is social capital. It is thinking that an organization has your best interests at heart, not just their best interests at heart. And um, I feel like for 20 years, so many organizations have been going moving so quickly on this hamster wheel advised by people who make a lot of money off of transactional fundraising and transactional engagement online and have lost sight of the fact that unless and until people out there trust that you are doing the right stuff in the right way, nothing else matters. And we’re all trying to scale way too quickly, tony without really understanding the fundamental D. N. A. Of making sure that we are entirely values aligned from what we want to do to what we’re actually doing to the outcomes. And again, you know, beth and I feel so strongly that the nonprofit sector is such an incredibly special place, right? We are the epicenter of the world for you know, providing human services and doing advocacy work and it is such an incredibly brave, difficult work and yet we still have a ways to go in asking are the leadership of organizations both C suite and the boards to raise the bar to be more transparent uh to to ask more questions about how they’re doing, to measure their outcomes, to uh take care of their people internally and externally better. And so that’s why we put trust so high up on the scale of what we want organizations to be focused on.

[00:47:19.32] spk_0:
I think leaders feel when they’re there

[00:47:24.02] spk_1:
falling

[00:47:24.70] spk_0:
short in in in in in the aspirations that you just described. I think I think folks feel it it’s just but they’re on that hamster wheel and it’s, it’s hard to take, it’s hard to take that step back and and acknowledge what you’re feeling and be introspective as an organization.

[00:49:01.87] spk_1:
Let me, let me, let me describe something though. That’s really important. tony that we as a sector don’t talk nearly enough about. And that’s what Beth and I called the leaky bucket in fundraising. Right? So year one, you get 100 donors by year two, you’re down to 25 of those. You’ve lost 75% of those donors Because you’re so busy filling up the bucket again because you’ve lost 75% the year before and all you’re doing is this transactional fundraising, the email, the direct mail to fill up the bucket again. All of the measures of fundraising success are front loaded, right of did we hit those, you know, revenue targets for this year? Very few organizations are really focused on donor retention and how to increase it. It’s never been at a board table for discussion that I have been at in many, many years, many, many organizations of being on the board and that is where the panic comes in. And it feels terrible to staff and you know, my heart just goes out to all of those people who are in a panic about hitting those revenue numbers knowing that what they’re working with is hemorrhaging donors every single day and that’s where, you know, just in my heart of hearts tony I just want everybody to stop, just stop and take a step back and figure out how to improve your relationship with donors more. So they stay longer with you and you’re not in this panic every day.

[00:49:25.83] spk_0:
Allison, we’re gonna come back to you for for curiosity beth let’s talk about empathy,

[00:49:29.41] spk_1:
I’m

[00:51:40.41] spk_2:
sure. And I think the empathy is, needs to be turned within first before it gets turned outside to the donors to solve um, what what Alison was just talking about. But so empathetic leadership means the ability to understand the needs of others and being aware of their feelings and thoughts. And unfortunately it’s viewed as kind of like a soft skill. Um, and it’s not always linked to performance, um, indicators, right? And so I think it’s really important, especially with what we’ve been through in the pandemic, um, that organizations really need to have clear expectations with their managers to lead in a way that is supportive of, of employees and that supports and contributes to their overall well being and they can do that and still get work done. Um, and I think that like don’t get me started on well being, but um, well being has to be put center and it has to be raised up and given as much importance as fundraising metrics or, or other financial metrics, especially given what we’ve been through. And so this includes checking in training people to like actually observe on their staff and making sure that their, um, you know, caretakers for each other’s well being. And it’s, you know, like a one on one check in isn’t just about, hey, where’s that report? Where’s that proposal? But it’s also how people are feeling what their energy is. Like what their job experiences like what could be improved, which gets us closer to that conversation around technology. So, um, the types of skills and competencies that make for a culture of care or empathy or self awareness and self regulation, adaptive skills, active listening coaching with powerful questions, observing for signs of burnout. Being able to give and receive feedback in a way that doesn’t cause stress, disrupting microaggressions, inclusive facilitation, having those difficult conversations sometimes, which is too nice. But there’s ways to have those conversations that aren’t devastating and genuine perspective, taking. Being able to see it from other people’s points of view. And it doesn’t, I don’t think that makes us weaker. I really think it makes us stronger.

[00:51:54.81] spk_0:
You know,

[00:52:05.03] spk_2:
it’s not a bunch of, you know, reaction when I wrote the happy, healthy. Yeah. Right. We get the, you know, that’s a bunch of hippie crap. Yeah.

[00:52:07.04] spk_0:
I didn’t say that when I talk to you. You

[00:52:08.92] spk_2:
didn’t say that. Of course you wouldn’t say that. You’re too smart.

[00:52:25.83] spk_0:
Thank you. Well, you hardly know me, but thank you. I’ll take it anyway. Um, I know a lot of what you’re describing to is vulnerability. And I think vulnerability is a sign of uh is evidence of confidence that you’re, that you’re strong enough to be vulnerable where lots of people think it’s a sign of weakness that you’re showing, you know, you’re, you’re showing your human side and you know that I think that’s terribly misguided. Um alright, if we’re gonna, we’re gonna, I’m gonna keep you uh not beyond our allocated time. Let’s go to Alison for for curiosity.

[00:52:48.83] spk_1:
Why is it important?

[00:52:50.46] spk_0:
Yes. Why is, why is curiosity a valued trait for leaders?

[00:54:31.33] spk_1:
Uh, you know, the world is moving really fast tony and we have um, a lot of organizational leaders who think tech is not their thing, right? Tech is for somebody else and it can’t not be your thing. If you’re running an organization right now, it’s too important. It’s threaded throughout everything that your organization is doing and you can’t just lean back, You need to lean into it and to do that? You need to be genuinely curious about in our case for smart tech, What is this stuff and why is important and how is it different from the last generation of technology and what could we actually accomplish if we didn’t spend three quarters of our day responding to emails? What is possible out there in the world. And you know, my heart breaks for so many of the nonprofit folks that beth and I talked to who have such good intentions and are so deeply unhappy with how stressful their jobs are or how unrecognized they are by the C suite um or how um pressurized they feel. So it is just uh innately important for organizational leaders to be genuinely curious about, where do we go from here? Right. The world broke two years ago in so many fundamental ways the political economic stress of this moment is wearing people down but we can’t stay here tony we need to go somewhere and we genuinely believe that the family of technologies we call smart tech creates an opportunity to be different in the future to make work joyful and much more meaningful and rewarding and you can only get there if you’re genuinely curious and engaged in understanding the technology

[00:54:58.39] spk_0:
and I think curiosity and empathy are interrelated to curiosity about your people as beth was for all the, in all the ways Beth was describing. That’s

[00:55:08.56] spk_1:
exactly right

[00:55:12.54] spk_0:
alright. Um I don’t suppose the beth I don’t suppose you on the fly came up with an H for to spell out tech for us. Did you?

[00:55:23.89] spk_2:
You

[00:55:24.77] spk_0:
Have that one already?

[00:55:27.02] spk_2:
Humility

[00:55:28.26] spk_0:
Humility is a good one. There you go.

[00:55:29.86] spk_2:
So let’s riff on that humility in

[00:55:31.81] spk_0:
the second edition, you can add, you can add humility and spell out

[00:55:35.20] spk_2:
text and then we’ll footnote and say suggested by tony

[00:55:44.65] spk_0:
Thank you. Yeah, humility. Right. Isn’t that simple? Yeah, related to being empathetic leaders don’t need to know everything, do they?

[00:55:49.85] spk_1:
Oh gosh

[00:55:50.62] spk_2:
no listen

[00:56:15.01] spk_1:
we you know the reason why we wrote the network on profit tony was to take that idea of the hierarchical model of leadership and organizations out of the equation and say the point is somebody else in your network has the answer. You don’t have to have the answer yourself. You just have to know how to go about getting it right and and that of of flattening your organization and your worldview is so important to being able to survive all the uncertainties of what’s happening right now.

[00:56:52.37] spk_0:
Since we started with Allison, Beth I’m gonna let you wrap us up please. There’s so much more in the book. There are use cases, you know, we don’t the book, we can only scratch the surface here. You gotta get the book. That’s the point. You get. They talk about increasing program capacity, fundraising, back office automation, including a lot of talk about human resources. Um you just you gotta get the book which is the smart non profit but beth why don’t you leave us with inspiration and wisdom?

[00:58:30.19] spk_2:
Okay. Um we’ve been through a lot the sector has been through a lot. I mean the world’s been through a lot in the last 22 plus years with the pandemic and accompanying other crisis is and as Allison is outlined and I think we’re we are like at a precipice where we could just either go down the rabbit hole of you know a human capital crisis and spiraling out and people leaving the field and organizations just, you know, stopping business and, you know, leaving lots of people who are vulnerable who need their services. I mean, that’s we can’t go there. We have to pivot. And I think that um, smart tech is part of the tools that can help us get there. But again, their tools, they also need this empathetic leadership that we’ve been talking about and we who can also steer and change the culture to put people first. Um, and um, and I think if we can have all of these things together, working for the organization, the Smart Tech plus the culture plus the leadership, uh, we’ll be able to move forward in a post pandemic world with much better outcomes with happier staff, with staff doing a better job with donors, feeling seen and heard and wanting to, you know, um write bigger checks if you will with clients who are receiving the services that they need and we’re on a path to a better world. It’s not gonna be easy, but uh, we believe that non profits can do this.

[00:58:48.89] spk_0:
That’s beth cantor at Beth Kanter and Beth Kanter dot org co author Alison Fine at a fine and Allison Fine dot com. The book is the smart non profit you can find it in either of their two sites,

[00:59:00.00] spk_1:
Beth

[00:59:00.35] spk_0:
and Allison, thank you so much. Thanks for sharing

[00:59:03.70] spk_2:
genuine

[01:00:00.00] spk_0:
pleasure next week. Eric Sapperstein returns after many years. Let’s talk about waking up excited and going to bed fulfilled. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech You find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff showed social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for October 3, 2022: Your Dismantling Racism Journey

 

Pratichi ShahYour Dismantling Racism Journey

Starting with your people, your culture and your leadership, how do you identify, talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit? My guest is Pratichi Shah, founder & CEO at Flourish Talent Management Solutions. (Originally aired 7/8/20)

 

 

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[00:01:58.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d be thrown into necro psychosis if you killed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. You’re dismantling racism journey starting with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you identify? Talk about and begin to break down inequitable structures in your nonprofit. My guest is pretty itchy Shah founder and Ceo at flourished Talent management Solutions. This originally aired july 8th 2020 on Tony’s take two, let’s debunk plan to giving myths. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D just like three D but they go one dimension deeper here is your dismantling racism journey. It’s a real pleasure to welcome welcome. I’m not welcoming. I’m welcoming, I’m welcoming, she’s an HR strategist and thought leader with 25 years experience in all aspects of talent management. She’s making her face when I say 25 years human resources equity and inclusion and organizational development in the nonprofit and for profit arenas. She’s founder and Ceo of flourish Talent management Solutions. The company is at flourish tMS dot com. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:10.09] spk_1:
Thank you so much tony I appreciate being here.

[00:02:14.25] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure pleasure to have you um and I’d like to Jump right in if you’re, if you’re ready. Um,

[00:02:20.35] spk_1:
absolutely.

[00:02:48.05] spk_0:
You know, racism and white privilege most often look very benign on their face. Um, I had a guest explain why use of the word professional in a job description is racist. I had a more recently, I had a guest explain how not listing a salary range in a job description was felt racist to them. So how do we begin to uncover what is inequitable and right under our noses yet not visible on its face?

[00:03:34.85] spk_1:
Yeah. You know what it often it starts with listening. I mean to state state a bit of the obvious. It really does start with listening. It’s understanding for organizations. It’s understanding where we are. Um, so it’s listening to the voices that may not have been centered. We’ve become better as organizations and being responsive to staff. I hear that a lot kind of, hey, this is what my staff is telling me. This is what we need to do. But the question is is are you responding to the voices that have possibly been marginalized? Likely been marginalized or oppressed in the past joe. General responsiveness is not the same as centering the voices that really need to be heard. So it’s first off just understanding where you are as an organization and listening to the people who may have experienced organization in a way that is different than you think.

[00:03:50.19] spk_0:
So when you say general responsiveness is not what not adequate, not what we’re looking for. What do you mean by that?

[00:04:45.05] spk_1:
So a lot of time the voices that are saying, hey something’s wrong or we need to do this or we need to do that are not the voices of those that have been marginalized and oppressed. They tend to be maybe the loudest voices. They’re speaking maybe from a place of privilege and that needs to be taken into account. So being responsive, for instance, if the I call it kind of the the almond milk issue being responsive to a staff that says in addition to dairy milk for coffee. This is back when we were in fiscal offices, um, we need almond milk too. But the question is is are we listening to the voices of those that weren’t able to consume the dairy milk? It’s not a perfect metaphor. It’s not a perfect analogy because that one ignores actual pain and it just talks about preference. But are we list listen to the voices of people that have been oppressed who have, who have been, who have heard the word professional or professionalism wielded against them as a, as an obstacle in their path to success in their path to career advancement. Those are the voices that we need to listen to not the ones who have a preference for one thing or another.

[00:05:08.34] spk_0:
Um let’s be explicit about how we identify who, who holds these voices, who are these people?

[00:06:03.47] spk_1:
It’s people that have have come from. It’s particularly right now when we talk about anti black racism, we need to center the voices of those from the black community. And that means those who have either maybe not joined, not just not joined our organization for particular reasons, but maybe they have not joined our board. Maybe they have not participated in our programs, Maybe they haven’t had the chance to. So it’s really from an organizational perspective, think of it as understanding what our current state is. So how does your organization move people up? Move people in move people out if we don’t have the voices in the first place? Because maybe we’re not as welcoming as we should be, then what does the data tell us about? Who’s coming into our organization? Who’s leaving our organization, Who’s able to move up into our organization, what our leadership looks like, what our board looks like. So at times the fact that there is an absence of voice is telling in and of itself and our data needs to be able to explain what is going on. So that data needs to be looked at as well.

[00:06:52.58] spk_0:
Alright, so we need to very well, good chance we need to look outside our organization. You’re talking about people that we’ve turned down for board board positions turned down for employment? Um, I’m not even gonna say turn down for promotion because that would presume that they’re still that that presumes are still in the organization, But I’m talking about very likely going outside the organization. People who don’t work with us, who aren’t volunteering, who aren’t supporting us in any way, but we’ve marginalized them. We’ve cast them out before they even had a chance to get in

[00:07:10.44] spk_1:
potentially. Yeah. And then actually probably probably there is something that they have not found palatable or appealing about working with us or being a sensor or being uh to your point of volunteer. So so we need we need to look at why that’s happening.

[00:07:36.46] spk_0:
Okay. I’ve gotta I gotta drill down even further. How are we gonna identify these people within within our organization as it is? How are we gonna figure out which people these are that we’ve marginalize these voices of color over the let’s just like in the past five years, what have we if we’ve done this? How do we identify the people we’ve done it to?

[00:08:33.53] spk_1:
Yeah. It’s a really it’s a complicated question. It will differ by organization, right? It differs by what your subsector is, how things flow within a subsector. The size of the organization. A really good place to start is understanding who has turned us down, why have people left? So take a look at exit interviews. Even if you’re not doing exit interviews, we know that there is not always uh an HR presence in a lot of our organizations. If there aren’t formal exit interviews, first of all, let’s make time for those because we need to understand why people are leaving. Um but if if there isn’t a formal HR presence, what do we know about the circumstances under which someone left organization or said no to a job offer or said no to a board position or a volunteer. It’s also important to ask, expanding our definition of stakeholder groups, engaging with all of our stakeholder groups as as broadly defined as possible. And within those groups, understanding are we reaching out to a diverse audience to say why would you engage with us? Why would you not engage with us in any of those roles? So, yeah, it’s gonna be a little bit harder to understand the people who are not there because they’re not there.

[00:09:02.40] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay, Alright, so, alright, um we go through this exercise and and we identify we’ve identified a dozen people, um they’re not they’re not currently connected to us and uh it may be that they have had a bad experience with us, that they may have turned us down for employment because they got offered more money somewhere else. That could that in itself could be, let’s

[00:09:18.28] spk_1:
say that

[00:10:08.31] spk_0:
in itself could be uh not something other than benign, um but let’s say they moved out of the state, you know, they were they were thinking about, so, so in some cases they may not have a bad have had a bad experience with us, but in but in lots of cases they may have, they may have turned down that board position because they saw the current composition of the board and they didn’t feel they felt like uh maybe being an offer, you know, a token slot or whatever, whatever it might be. I’m just, I’m just suggesting that some of the, some of the feelings toward the organization might not be negative, but some might very well be negative of these dozen people we’ve identified in all these different stakeholder or potential stakeholder roles that they could have had. Um what do we reach out to them and say, how do we, how do we get them to join a conversation with an organization that they may feel unwelcome him?

[00:11:21.79] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And and I think right now, especially we tread carefully. Um we tried carefully and we honored the fact that they in fact might be getting that same question from many other other organizations, friends, colleagues, family members, in which people want to understand something. What we’re seeking to do is not be educated on the overall picture of white privilege, white supremacy of dominant narrative and dominant culture. That’s on us. That’s on all of us individually to understand that, that is not the member that is not up to. The member is of oppressed societies to have to tell us that, Right? So what they, what we want to understand is kind of, what did you experience with our organization? What was the good? What was bad? And first of all, do you even want to engage with us. Is this not a good time to do that because they’re already exhausted. I said to a colleague recently, you know, we can’t even understand the reality of what it’s like to live there to live that reality and for many to lead the charge, right? Because they’re also showing leadership in the movement. So to we can’t even understand what those layers of existence are like. So I think it’s treading very carefully and should we have the ability to engage with someone because they have the space, the energy, the desire. Then I think it’s understanding and asking kind of what’s going on for us? What where did you find us either not appealing or where did you? Why did you not want to work with us in whatever capacity we were asking? And it’s asking that question.

[00:11:50.37] spk_0:
Okay, well that’s further down. I’m just trying to get to like what’s the initial email invitation look like?

[00:11:55.10] spk_1:
It depends on the organization. It depends on the organization. It depends on the relationship. I wouldn’t presume to give words to that to be honest with you because because I think it also depends on the person that you’re asking. I don’t want to offer kind of a blanket response and inadvertently tokenized people by saying, oh, of course you’re gonna want to engage with us. So I really think it’s dependent on the situation.

[00:13:35.19] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They had a very smart newsletter this week. We often can’t predict news outcomes, but we often do know news is coming, for instance, hurricanes during hurricane season, the Duffy decision on abortion and the november midterm elections. We know in advance that there’s going to be this news. The smart nonprofits turn to communication says prepare talking points for all the possible outcomes in advance and they’re the ones that get the day one quotes and the op EDS and they own the issue on social media. So prepare your messaging in advance, then launch when the news breaks. It’s brilliant turn to communications. Your story is their mission. You can get their newsletter which is on message at turn hyphen two dot c o. Brilliant. Now, back to your dismantling racism journey. What are you inviting them to do with you have a conversation, share your experience with us, is it?

[00:14:42.37] spk_1:
Yeah, essentially. I mean, that’s what it boils down to. But again, it really depends on where the organization is. Right. So this is your data collection moment. This is information collection. Where else are you collecting information? What what else do you know? What other steps have you taken to begin that educational process because there’s there’s kind of a dual purpose here, right? It’s understanding who we are in, where we have contributed to structural racism, to pretend to a culture of that does not support differing viewpoints, differing populations, that is in some ways upholding white supremacy or is completely holding upholding white supremacy and its culture, there’s that general education of understanding all of that and then there’s understanding what our organization’s role is, right? So it’s both. And um so it’s really highly dependent upon where is the organization uh case for us, who you’ve talked to? The head of Equity in the center describes a cycle that is brilliant um around awake too, woke to work. Where are you in that cycle? Are you, where are you on? Um where are you and being pluralistic? Where are you and being inclusive? All of those things depend on what you’ll ask and how you’ll reach out and if you even should reach out there maybe work that has to be done internally before that reach out can happen again, just being considerate and sensitive of those who are willing to talk to.

[00:15:09.48] spk_0:
Yeah. Kay was our guest for the last most recent special episode on this exact same subject. Thank you.

[00:15:16.71] spk_1:
Yeah. The the organization is doing and has been since its inception has been doing incredible work. K is leading that work. Um and and both her words always contain wisdom and the products that they’ve put out are extraordinary.

[00:15:48.30] spk_0:
How about in your work are you facilitating the kinds of conversations in your practice that you and I are talking about right now, Do you you bring these outside folks in sometimes too to to have these conversations

[00:16:16.58] spk_1:
sometimes. Yeah, sometimes again being highly respectful of if they didn’t want to engage with us, do they even want to talk to us right now? My work really is around um, having an organization understand where it is right now. So what is its current state? What is the desired future state? Right. So we know that we want to be a racially inclusive, racially equitable organization likely that’s already been defined. But what does that mean for us as an organization if it means solely in numbers piece right? Like we want to be more divorces aboard. Okay, that’s fine. But beyond that, how will we make ourselves have a board culture that is appealing to those people that we want to bring in to work with us? So it’s kind of defining both current state and understanding current state to finding future state and then developing the strategy to get there.

[00:17:00.63] spk_0:
Okay. And now you and I are talking about, you said you know, we’re still data gathering, so we’re still defining the current culture as it exists. Right. Okay. Okay. And your work, you you centered around people, culture and leadership. Can we focus on leadership? I feel like everything trickles down from

[00:17:05.04] spk_1:
there.

[00:17:27.69] spk_0:
I don’t know. Are we okay. Are you okay, Starting with a leadership conversation or you’d rather start somewhere else? Okay. Um, so what what is it we’re looking for leaders of our listeners of small and midsize nonprofits to, to commit to you.

[00:17:30.41] spk_1:
I think it’s first of all committing to their own

[00:17:32.40] spk_0:
learning

[00:17:33.56] spk_1:
and, and not relying on communities of color to provide that learning. Right? Again, Going back to what we said earlier, it’s not relying on those who have been harmed or oppressed to provide the learning. So first of all, it’s an individual journey that’s a given. Okay. Um,

[00:18:32.11] spk_0:
can I, can I like to like things like people, I like action steps. Okay. So we’re talking about our individual journey, our own learning. I mean, I’ve been doing some of this recently by watching Youtube, watching, um, folks on Youtube of course. Now I now I can’t remember the names of people, but no Eddie Glaude. Um, so Eddie Glaude is a commentator on MSNBC. He’s just written a just released this last week, uh, biography, well, not so much a biography of James baldwin, but, but an explanation of baldwin’s journey around racism. Um, so that’s one example of, you know, who I’ve been listening to. So we were talking about educating like learning from thought leaders around yeah, privilege structures, whether reading books listening to podcasts.

[00:19:00.76] spk_1:
Absolutely. It’s around, it’s around structures, but it’s also understanding things that we do all the time in organizations and how I as a leader might perpetuate those, right? So it’s sometimes the use of language to your point about the use of the word professional. Um, language tends to create our reality. So, and and it either language will build a bridge or not. So how do we use our language? How do we use our descriptors? How do I show up as a leader? Um, as in my own kind of inclusion or not? So, I think it is absolutely that it is looking at thought leaders around things like structural racism, around the use of language around people’s individual experiences to get that insight and depth, because it’s not just an intellectual exercise. This is emotional, too, and therefore has to have emotional resonance.

[00:20:10.42] spk_0:
Okay, thank you for letting me dive deeper into what about personal, you know, your own personal journey, your own personal education, uh, fact finding and introspection. You’re talking about something, you know, and it’s no, no revelation. This is it’s difficult. It’s painful. You know, you you’re very likely uncovering how you offended someone, uh, how you offended a group. Um, if you were, you know, speaking in public and something comes to mind or how you offended someone in meetings or, you know, multiplied. I don’t know how many times. I mean, this introspection is likely painful,

[00:20:12.44] spk_1:
likely likely. Yeah, more often. More often than not, I can’t I can’t really envision it. Not at some level being painful.

[00:20:21.92] spk_0:
Yeah. But you’ve caused pain. You know, that there’s a recognition there. Yeah,

[00:20:27.16] spk_1:
exactly,

[00:20:27.62] spk_0:
painful for you. But let’s consider the pain of the person or the group that you.

[00:20:33.80] spk_1:
Exactly, right. I

[00:20:34.78] spk_0:
don’t know, offended, stereotyped, mean to put off, you know, whatever it is, you’re

[00:20:40.73] spk_1:
that’s right. And that that’s why the work as much as I know, you know, to some degree, people want this to be work that can be kind of project managed if you will or it can be put into a process or a series of best practices or benchmarks

[00:20:53.94] spk_0:
to

[00:21:05.75] spk_1:
some degree, not very much, but to some degree. Yes, absolutely. The some a little bit of that can happen, but that in and of itself is a bit of a dominant narrative, right? That in and of itself is kind that that centering white culture. So I think what we need to understand is this is not just going to be again to sorry to be redundant, but it’s not just gonna be intellectual. The fact that pain has been caused dictates that this be emotionally owned as well. It can’t be arms length. It can’t be just intellectually owned with a project plan that I keep over here on a chalkboard or something like that.

[00:21:41.49] spk_0:
Emotionally owned. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Um All right. So I made you digress and deeper. What else, what else you wanna tell us about leadership’s commitment and and and the importance of leadership commitment.

[00:23:23.38] spk_1:
Yeah. So, so it needs to be explicit. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be baked into the leadership. Whatever leadership structure of the organization has, it needs to be an ongoing piece of that leadership. So it’s not a, hey, let’s touch base on our quote inclusion initiative. If it’s an initiative first of all, that’s not really doing the work anyway. Um but it’s not something that lives separately from ourselves. Let’s have HR kind of check in on this or let’s have the operations person check in on this, that that’s not what this is about. It’s really, it’s authentically being owned by leadership to say, yeah, I know it’s gonna be painful. And in looking at our organization, we’re gonna need to understand why our leadership is remarkably homogeneous. Which in the case of many nonprofits, it is if you take a look at Building movement project and the unbelievably great work that they’ve done twice now, they just put out an update to their leadership work around how people move through the sector or don’t and how people communities of color and people of color are represented in our leadership. We can begin to understand that by and large, they’re they’re not. Um though i that is an oversimplification in some ways. So I would encourage people to go to building movement Project’s website and check out their work. Um but you know what, why are we so homogeneous? Why is our board? So homogeneous? It’s it’s also unpacking and uncovering that. So to your point earlier about, you know, how do we look at people and how they move through the organization. This is where you look at Who is present, right? Not just who’s not with us, but who is with us? How do people get promoted? How does that system work? Does any does everyone have the same information? Is it a case of unwritten rules? Is it a case of some people move up because they’re similar or they have 10 years of experience, which is something that we like to say.

[00:23:45.71] spk_0:
How

[00:24:08.90] spk_1:
Do you get 10 years of experience if you’ve not been given those chances to begin with? So is there life experience that we can that we can begin to integrate in our conversations? Because life experience is equally valuable. Are we putting too much of a premium on higher education, education and its formal kind of traditional form. Are we putting too much of a of an emphasis on pedigree of other kinds of those, those are the things that ultimately keep people out. So taking a look at leadership and and having leadership commitment ultimately means looking at all of those things, there’s an overlap and how we look at leadership or people and or organizational culture.

[00:24:24.52] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, of course, this is a it’s a continuum or

[00:24:27.44] spk_1:
Absolutely, absolutely. And the areas bleed into each other.

[00:24:38.31] spk_0:
Yeah, of course, yeah. Um, you know, subsumed in all this, I guess. I mean, it’s okay for leaders to say, I don’t know where the where the journey is going. I don’t know what we’re going to uncover, but I’m committed to having this journey and leading it and and right. I mean, supporting it, but I don’t know what we’re going to find.

[00:24:54.28] spk_1:
Uh

[00:24:55.50] spk_0:
Right,

[00:24:56.39] spk_1:
right. And that in and of itself can be uncomfortable for a lot of people. And that’s the that’s the kind of discomfort we need to get okay with.

[00:25:03.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Alright. Yeah. This, you know, I had I had a guest explained that this is not as you were alluding to, uh it’s not the kind of thing that, you know, we’re gonna have a weekly meeting and will be these outcomes at the end of every meeting, then we’ll have this list of activities and, you know, that then, you know, it’s how come it’s not like that. How come we can’t do it like that

[00:25:26.67] spk_1:
because we’re dealing with hundreds and hundreds of years of history, and it’s because we haven’t been inclusive in the ways that we do things and we haven’t allowed whole selves to show up that it is um It’s complicated and it’s messy because it’s human.

[00:25:44.56] spk_0:
Alright. So it’s not gonna be as simple as our budget meetings.

[00:25:48.62] spk_1:
Absolutely different. Different kind of hard.

[00:25:52.76] spk_0:
Alright. And we’re gonna have an outcome at every at every juncture at every step or every week or every month or something. That’s

[00:25:58.65] spk_1:
right. That’s right. And if we expect it to go that way. Um We are likely going to give ourselves excuses not to press on

[00:26:56.36] spk_0:
it’s time for a break, fourth dimension technologies. Are you seeing technology as an investment, an investment in your people, the people you’re helping, the people who work for you, the people who support you, an investment in your sustainability and investment in your programs four D. Can help you make better tech investment decisions. Check them out on the listener landing page at Just like three D. But you know, they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return shall we to your dismantling racism journey. Alright, so that’s what it’s not. What, what does it look like?

[00:27:59.80] spk_1:
It absolutely looks different for every organization. It absolutely looks different for every organization and that’s why it’s so critical to understand kind of where are we right now? Um where are we? As far as all of the components of our organization? Right. So volatile. Again, volunteers board staff culture. You said, you know, we were talking about people organization and leadership, which is obviously a lot of my work. Um, it is getting underneath all of those kinds of things to say. So who experiences our culture? How um so we do engagement surveys, Right. A lot of times we do engagement employee surveys, that kind of thing. Are we looking at those disagree in a disaggregated way? Are we asking different populations to identify themselves? And are we looking at what the experiences are by population? Are we asking explicit questions around whether or not you feel like you can be yourself in this organization, Whether you can provide dissenting opinions, whether you feel comfortable approaching your boss with feedback, um

[00:28:01.00] spk_0:
whether

[00:28:01.73] spk_1:
you feel comfortable volunteering for particular work, whether you feel like you understand what a promotion or performance management processes, whether you get the support that you need or to what extent you get support that you need either from colleagues, boss, leadership etcetera. So it’s looking at all of those things and then understanding are they being experienced differently by different communities within our organization?

[00:28:26.10] spk_0:
You mentioned disaggregate ng. That that’s where the data is not helpful, right?

[00:28:31.94] spk_1:
That is where we look at the data in terms of populations.

[00:28:35.58] spk_0:
Oh, of course. Aggregating. I’m sorry.

[00:28:39.09] spk_1:
Oh, that’s okay.

[00:28:40.34] spk_0:
You’re stuck with a lackluster host? No, of course, yes. Aggregating

[00:28:44.36] spk_1:
early in the week.

[00:29:00.70] spk_0:
Thank you. You couldn’t say early in the day, but thank you for being gracious. Okay. Yes. We we we want to disaggregate of course. Um and look by population and I guess cut a different way. I mean depending on the size of the organization, um age, race, uh

[00:29:25.54] spk_1:
race, ethnicity, um of physical ability, orientation. All of those need to be in the mix. Um gender as well. Including gender fluidity. So really looking at all of our populations and then understanding, you know, for these particular questions, is there a difference in how people experience our organization? We we know then what we do know is that if there is a difference that there is a difference, we don’t know that there is causality unless they’re unless you’ve asked questions that might begin to illuminate that. Right? But there’s there’s always that difference between correlation and causality and then what you want to do is get underneath that to understand why the experience might be different and why it might change along lines of gender or race or ethnicity or orientation or physical ability.

[00:29:57.07] spk_0:
We we we wandered, you know, but that’s that’s fine. I

[00:30:03.50] spk_1:
people

[00:30:09.82] spk_0:
culture and um and leadership all coming together. Um where where where do you want to go? Uh I mean, I would like to talk about people, culture and leadership. What’s a good, what’s a good next one?

[00:32:27.52] spk_1:
Yes. Well, so, so this is what you’re doing, right? As you’re you’re collecting information and all of those three areas. Right? And one so a couple of things that I would add to that is when you look at people, you’re looking at their experiences, when you look at the leadership, you’re looking at commitment, makeup, structure, access all of those kinds of things. When you’re looking at culture, you’re looking at how people experience the culture, Right? And so what, what is happening? What’s not happening? What’s stated out loud? What’s not stated out loud? What are the unwritten rules? There is also the piece that that forms all of these things, which is operational systems. Right? So things like performance management, things like um where people may sit back when we were in physical offices having access to technology, all of those kinds of things, particularly important now that we’re not in physical offices, so does everyone have access to the technology and information necessary to do their job, to do their jobs to do their work? So it is looking also at your operator side and saying, how do we live our operational life? How do how do people experience it, who do we engage with to provide services for our operations? How do we provide services if you will, for lack of better term to our employees? So it’s also looking at that because operations ultimately permeates organizational culture, people and leadership, Right? Because it kind of sustains all of that. So taking a look at that too. And finally, I would suggest again as part of this and as a wraparound is what is the internal external alignment? Right? So I often hear people say, hey, you know what, this is the subsector we work in, people would think that we’re really equitable, but internally we are living a different life than what we are putting out to our stakeholders and our constituencies externally. So what is what is our external life? And how does that need to inform our internal world? It’s not unusual for me to hear that the external life, the way we engage with stakeholders or the way we put out program Programmatic work is actually may be further along to the extent that this is considered to be a contain, it’s further along than the way that we’re living our life internally. So

[00:32:31.20] spk_0:
there’s dishonesty there disconnect that

[00:32:34.70] spk_1:
there’s a disconnect

[00:32:36.18] spk_0:
disconnect

[00:32:36.88] spk_1:
for sure and possibly yeah, dishonesty and hip hop maybe even hypocrisy.

[00:32:47.12] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. Alright. But again, all right. So that now we’re looking like this is organizational introspection. Exactly. There’s individual learning and introspection. Now we’re at the organizational level right? Being honest with our with our culture and our messaging.

[00:33:05.70] spk_1:
Right. Right. And and so what I try to do is to help organizations kind of look at those things and decide how we might evolve give in the future that we’ve set our sights on and given some of the principles that we’ve laid out. How do we kind of get there? How do we, how do we evolve our systems? How do we evolve our people practices? How do we evolve our culture. So hence the need to look at all of these things that centered around people, culture and leadership.

[00:35:27.37] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take to debunk the top five myths of planned giving. I hate these insidious, pernicious myths like the one that planned giving will hurt your other fundraising and the one that you need a lawyer because plan giving is so complicated. I will debunk the top five myths in a webinar on Tuesday october 18th at 10 a.m. Pacific time, one p.m. Eastern time. but the time doesn’t matter because if you grab your spot for the webinar, you’ll get the video. This is 2022 you don’t need to be there. We’d love to have you live, but you don’t need to be there. I will be debunking these insidious myths in plain simple language and I’m gonna weave in my stand up comedy. The host is NP Solutions. They’re hosting, you are hosting me, they’re hosting us. That’s what hosts do they host their hosting? You go to N. P solutions dot org and click on workshops. What could be simpler. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got the boo koo but loads more time for your dismantling racism journey with Gene Takagi. No, no, it’s with who writes this copy? I need an intern so badly, desperately. So I have somebody to blame. Please. You’re dismantling racism journey with pretty itchy Shah and intern resumes are welcome. What about the use of a professional facilitator? Because well, first of all, there’s a body of expertise that someone like you brings uh but also help with these difficult conversations. Talk about the value of having an expert facilitator. Yeah,

[00:36:50.97] spk_1:
absolutely. So, so, you know, I think I think there’s always a level of objectivity and and and kind of an in inside look by an outsider that you that you benefit from. We go to experts for everything from, you know, our health to the extent that we have access to those experts, which is a whole different conversation on race and oppression. Um, we we want that external voice. What I would say is it’s likely not going to be the same expert or the same facilitator and I say expert in quotes um, for everything. So for instance, I am not the voice to be centered on educating an organization around structural racism. I don’t think I’m the right voice to be centered. I would rather center voices like those at um, At race forward at equity in the center at those who have lived the results of 400 years of oppression. So you might want to call in someone for that discussion for that education. There are people that are better and more steeped in that and whose voices should absolutely be centered for that. Um, you might want to call in a voice for White Ally ship because there is some specifics around that that we need to talk about without kind of centering white voices. I’m

[00:36:51.22] spk_0:
sorry that white Ally ship. Yeah. What is that?

[00:38:01.95] spk_1:
So if we think about the or the organization, right, and are kind of culture and our people um, who who on staff sees themselves as an ally. And how can they be good? How can how can white people be good allies? Right. And how do how do we further and embed that in the culture. Um, and then finally, so keeping that in mind that there are gonna be different experts or different facilitators for different things, you know, who is going to be the person in my case, this actually might be me is to help us evolve our culture and our systems so that we can be more equitable and take a look at that, who’s gonna provide the training because there are skills necessary right to have these com conversations. There are foundational communication skills, there is the ability to give feedback. Um, there is the ability to communicate across cultures, across genders, across across groups. There is ability to be collaborative. So so also strengthening those skills while we continue to look at those things. But to think that all of this help is going to come from? One source is not ideal and unlikely it’s even inappropriate because everyone can’t be everything. I don’t try to be the voices that I can’t be, it’s inappropriate for me to do that.

[00:38:26.14] spk_0:
What what else do you wanna, what do you want to talk about? You know, given the level where that we’re at, we’re trying to help small and midsize nonprofits inaugurate a journey around racism and white privilege.

[00:39:44.81] spk_1:
Yeah, I think, I mean, look, first of all I hear a lot of organizations say like what what is the access point, like what do I get started doing? We put out a statement um in some cases we are experiencing some dissonance between the statement that we put out or the programmatic work that we do and the way that we’re living internally. So it is really understanding kind of why where are we now through all of the ways that that we’ve been talking about over the last several minutes. Where are we now? What is it that we’re not doing that we should be doing, What is it that we need to be doing? How do we define for us if we have an equitable culture, if we are living racial equity, what does that look like for us? Um how does that affect our programmatic work? How does that affect our operations? Everything from our finances to our people processes to when we are back in an office, even our physical setup. How how does that affect us and how would we define that future state? So it’s understanding what is my current state, what is my future state and then understanding how we get there and it’s likely gonna be along all of the areas that we said. Right? So individual journeys, some group and individual skill building, um some evolution of our systems and some understanding of kind of how we can support each other and support ourselves for those that are that affiliate with a particular group. Um and then kind of moving us along to that place of where we want to be. So it is it is understanding where you are that determines what your access point is. But I would say if you if you have done the work of putting out this statement then there then look for look for where you’re not living that statement internally.

[00:40:22.11] spk_0:
That sounds like a very good place to Yeah, to start your search for for an access point because it’s so recent, your organization has probably said something in the past 56 weeks.

[00:40:23.77] spk_1:
Absolutely

[00:40:26.78] spk_0:
to that, to that statement.

[00:40:43.46] spk_1:
Exactly. And and we are incredibly, I would say and pardon the use of the term, but almost fortunate that so many thought leaders have been kind and generous enough to share with us their thoughts on this moment, so not just within the sector, but all the way across our society. So many people have taken the time and the patients and the generosity amidst everything else that they’re living through, they have agreed to share their thoughts, their leadership, their expertise with us. So there is a ton of knowledge out there right at our fingertips and that’s a that’s another really great place to start and to center the voices that most need to be heard

[00:41:15.89] spk_0:
at the same time. You know, we are seeing beginnings of change uh institutions from Princeton University to the state of Mississippi

[00:41:37.59] spk_1:
right? Absolutely. To hopefully, you know, the unnamed Washington football team and to Nascar and places where we, I didn’t know that change necessarily was possible, but we we are same change and and the important thing is is to not be complacent about that change,

[00:42:41.88] spk_0:
right and not and also recognize that it’s just a beginning. You know, removing confederate statues, um taking old glory off the Mississippi flag. These are just beginnings. But I think worth worth noting. I mean worth recognizing and celebrating because The state of Mississippi is a big institution and it’s been wrestling with this for, I don’t know if they’ve been wrestling for centuries, but that flag has been there for that just that long 18. Some things I think is when that flag was developed. So it’s been a long, it’s been a long time coming. So recognizing it for what it is and celebrating it, you know, to the extent that yeah, to the extent that represents the change, the beginning of the beginning of change. All right. Um well, you know, what else, what else, what else do you want to share with folks at this? You know, at this stage?

[00:43:50.39] spk_1:
You know, I think, I think the main thing is um dig in, We need to dig in on this. We need to dig in on this because in the same way that that we have been living this society societally for so long. Our organizations many times are microcosms of society. So if we think as an organization that were exempt or that were already there, we’ve arrived at like a post racial culture, that’s not the case, that’s just not the case. Um, so where do you want to dig in? Where do you want to dig in, chances are good you are doing some version of looking at issues within your organization, whether it’s your annual survey, if you do it annually or whatever in which you can use that information to begin this journey. So dig in from where you are. It’s one of those things that if you’re waiting, if you’re waiting for kind of the exact right time or further analysis to begin the journey again, it’s not it’s not based solely on analysis. There is a p there is certainly information. There’s data that needs to be understood. But if we’re waiting for endless analysis to happen or to kind of point us to the right time, that’s not going to happen. The intellectualism needs to be there. But again, as we said in the path, as we’ve said a few times during the course of our conversation, this is about emotional resonance and an emotional ownership and a moral obligation. So, dig in, dig in wherever you are right now,

[00:44:38.44] spk_0:
what if I’m trying within my organization and I’m not the leader, I’m not even second or third tier management or something, You know, how do I elevate the conversation? I presume it helps to have allies. What if what if I’m meeting a resistance from the people who, who are in leadership?

[00:45:11.35] spk_1:
I think look for the places where there may not be resistance, right? So look within the organization. Um, if there is resistance at a particular level, then you know, who do you have access to in the organization where there isn’t that? And I think, I think starting out not assuming that you have solutions if you have expertise in this area, if you have lived through the oppression as a member of a community that has lived through the impression, particularly in the black community, I think you’re coming from one place if you are, if you are not in that community and saying that you have expertise, I think you have to be a little bit more circumspect about that and introspective about what you can offer in this vein. Um, and I think, I think we want to look for the places where there is some traction, I think in most organizations, it’s not unusual to be getting the question right now,

[00:45:47.45] spk_0:
and what is the, I don’t want to call it outcome. What, what, what what can the future look like for our organization if we do embark on this long journey,

[00:46:18.02] spk_1:
uh, cultures that are equitable in which people can show up as their whole selves, um, in which there is not only one right way to do things which tends to be a very kind of white dominant Western culture, linear sequential way of, of managing work of managing communications, etcetera, but that in fact work can be approached in a number of different ways and that solutions can be approached in a number of different ways. People get to show up and give their all to these missions that we all hold very near and dear. And so they are able they’re empowered. They are able they are celebrated without sticking to a set of preconceived guidelines or preconceived unwritten or written rules that don’t serve us anymore. Anyway,

[00:46:44.78] spk_0:
when you started to answer that, I saw your face lighten up your I don’t know, it was a smile, it just looks like your face untended. Not that you’re nervous,

[00:46:55.65] spk_1:
Your face changed,

[00:47:06.37] spk_0:
started to answer the where we could be. Uh yeah, it was, it was palpable. Alright, alright. Are you comfortable leaving it there?

[00:47:09.88] spk_1:
I think so. I think so what have we not covered that? We need to cover for your listeners,

[00:47:15.60] spk_0:
you know that better than I getting started. That’s

[00:47:34.18] spk_1:
fair. Look, you know what, this is, this is the future that is written with many voices and and while I think I can be helpful, I don’t presume to be the voice that has all the answers. I definitively don’t. I definitively don’t. And so what we have not covered is actually probably not known to me, but I dare say someone, someone out there does know that and and they will likely be putting their voice up, which is exactly what we want.

[00:47:47.19] spk_0:
Yes, we will be bringing other voices as well. Alright,

[00:47:50.25] spk_1:
no doubt. Yeah,

[00:48:02.94] spk_0:
she’s founder and Ceo of flourished Talent management Solutions and the company is at flourish tMS dot com. Thank you so much. Thank you very very much.

[00:48:05.97] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you for opening up this space and having the conversation

[00:49:10.60] spk_0:
a pleasure. Uh it’s a responsibility and happy to live up to it. Try trying next week Beth Canter and Alison fine on their new book the smart non profit if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies their I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for September 26, 2022: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?

 

Gene Takagi: In Nonprofits, Do We Trust?

Gene Takagi

Public trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that, what does it mean for our work, and what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi, our legal contributor and principal of NEO Law Group, returns with his insights.

 

 

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[00:00:52.08] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of fragility as angry. Um if you nailed me with the idea that you missed this week’s show in nonprofits, do we trust? Public Trust in nonprofits is eroding. Why is that? And what can the nonprofit community do about it? Gene Takagi are legal contributor and principal of neo Law group returns with his insights On Tony’s take two. This is not planned, giving

[00:00:57.14] spk_1:
we’re

[00:01:41.13] spk_0:
sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s always a pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi, you know who he is. Of course he he we owe him the introduction that he that he deserves, but you know who he is, He’s our legal contributor, Managing attorney of neo the nonprofit and exempt organizations law group in saN Francisco he edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com, which you should follow and he’s a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neo law group dot com and jean is at G tech. Gene

[00:01:58.66] spk_1:
thanks

[00:01:59.11] spk_0:
for being back Welcome.

[00:02:00.73] spk_1:
It’s great to be here.

[00:02:03.15] spk_0:
It’s always a genuine pleasure. Thank you.

[00:02:07.78] spk_1:
We’re

[00:02:20.77] spk_0:
talking about public trust today. Uh not only your concerns, but you’re, you’re seeing evidence of. And I’m certainly reading some things too about eroding public trust in nonprofits. What what are you seeing? What are you thinking about that?

[00:02:27.69] spk_1:
You know, my first thoughts, tony is that trust really is the foundation of, of good relationships, right. No matter whether we’re talking about person to person,

[00:02:39.09] spk_0:
person to

[00:03:18.40] spk_1:
charity, you know, person to other institutions and charities I think are especially reliant on trust because if you’re asking people and groups and organizations to give money to you, um, they’ve got to trust that you’re gonna do use that money for charitable purposes, not for personal gain, not for other things, but for the charitable purposes that they want to support. And when trust erodes in our charities, that’s really a red flag and sort of a harbinger of things, bad things that could follow. So trust is really important, I think, um, to talk about. And the study, the most recent study that came out from independent sector and Edelman Data and intelligence found that there’s low trust amongst all institutions. So maybe not completely surprising, but less than a third say the trust, government, large corporations and the news media

[00:03:35.93] spk_0:
and

[00:04:08.91] spk_1:
charities, relatively speaking are better than that in terms of the trust factor, but it’s been dropping and nonprofits as a, as a sector, The trust and nonprofits now is 56%. The rest either are neutral on it or have a distrust of nonprofits, only 56% and only 36% trust philanthropy or foundations and grantmaking organizations, so that’s really, really low. And women’s trust and non profits dropped even more than than men. Um, and I think another flag to point out is our younger generations, especially gen Z

[00:04:17.56] spk_0:
really

[00:04:18.43] spk_1:
have a distrust of nonprofits. Um, and

[00:04:22.83] spk_0:
with

[00:04:23.75] spk_1:
the wealth transfer that’s expected from baby boom generation to millennials and two gen Z, that’s got to be alarming to nonprofits. And I, I think it’s just worthy to call out right now.

[00:04:35.97] spk_0:
Do you know what that number is among gen z. Trust in nonprofits that in the independent sector include that in in their survey.

[00:04:49.81] spk_1:
Well, the statistic that I, I saw that that called out to me was 57% of gen z. Americans say giving directly to individuals makes a bigger impact than giving to nonprofits. So they would rather give to individuals on go fund me or another crowdfunding site than to give to a nonprofit. They find that more trustworthy.

[00:05:16.77] spk_0:
There’s another dimension to the, to the trust, which is government, trust in nonprofits. And you could read government as congressional or, you know, I. R. S. But you know, they they, the the U. S. Government has bestowed the charitable deduction so that the money is used for, as you said, you know, for charitable purposes as disclosed in your organizing documents. And if if I’m thinking more of Congress, you know, if congress feels that

[00:05:43.59] spk_1:
the

[00:05:43.80] spk_0:
nonprofit community can’t be trusted, you know, we could start to see some erosion of, uh, clawback of some of the, the benefits that nonprofits enjoy. Tax free status, for instance, and the charitable deduction to name a couple of

[00:06:00.50] spk_1:
wildly

[00:06:01.37] spk_0:
wildly valuable ones.

[00:06:22.64] spk_1:
Yeah, and that’s such a great point because just a few days ago, there was news about a case in Minnesota where government funding to feed poor Children, um, there was a huge scandal involving tens of millions of dollars. So, um, it really speaks to two if government stops trusting nonprofits or certain government agencies and cuts funding to agencies, how harmful that might be to charities and the beneficiaries they’re trying to serve.

[00:06:35.87] spk_0:
I think that one was even worse. I think it was like $240 million dollars

[00:06:41.59] spk_1:
worth

[00:06:42.04] spk_0:
of pandemic aid money. I saw that in, in Minnesota is supposed to be going to feed Children during the pandemic and, and pocketed. Yeah,

[00:06:52.51] spk_1:
patterns there as well. It’s, it’s,

[00:06:55.94] spk_0:
yeah,

[00:06:58.09] spk_1:
it

[00:06:58.93] spk_0:
is. It’s, it’s, um, and then of course there’s always been Charles grassley. I mean, he’s been, he’s been nipping at, uh, foundations and donor advised funds for for years

[00:08:03.64] spk_1:
now. Yeah. And in fact, the whole charitable sector, I think, um, and a significant portion of our lawmakers, um, take a consumer protection perspective of, we want to protect donors, um, and not strengthening the nonprofit sector perspective they want to create laws that will per, you know, try to prevent, um, uh, fraud or misuse of charitable funds as if this is rampant amongst the nonprofit sector, which my position is, it is not, but there are certain high profile cases that hit the new york times and the Washington post and all the other newspapers. And there’s so much media coverage that focuses on scandals because that’s what’s gonna sell right. The tweet or the short snippet that people’s attention span will, will actually stop on. Um, it’s gonna sell much more if it’s a scandal rather than a long term growth in in impact. Even, you know, the, the great news that child poverty has, has been really declining in in the country, which should be huge news gets short shrift compared to some of the big scandals that we hear about.

[00:09:08.60] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. When I name dropped Charles Grassley, I should have said Senator, senator from Iowa, Republican, senator from Iowa Charles grassley. Um, yeah, right. It’s, it’s the scandals that, that’s, that get clicks that sell papers that get attention. I remember, I’m sure you do several years ago there was a scandal among an, an organization supposedly raising money for Navy Veterans like Navy Navy Veteran Foundation or something like that several years ago, but it was very high profile. Um, what was the other, do you remember, I don’t mean to put you on the spot. It’s okay if you don’t remember because I don’t the, uh, the veterans organization that was accused of squandering, you know, tens of millions of dollars on lavish retreats and high, high executive salaries. But, but, but it it had it had great outcomes. It was, it was funding lots of veterans organizations.

[00:09:25.25] spk_1:
I think the one you’re talking about is the Wounded Warriors.

[00:09:29.11] spk_0:
Thank you. Yes. Project.

[00:09:51.07] spk_1:
And yeah, it’s, um, it’s always difficult. Um, looking at an organization through the eyes of the media, um, about how, you know, how well or unwell they did. I don’t want to create, um, you know, uh, discuss particular scandals too much other than to say that they create problems for the whole sector. So, you know, that’s, it’s just something to be aware of. And they’re not necessarily reflective of the vast majority of nonprofits out there trying to do good work and help people.

[00:10:17.64] spk_0:
The 99.99% you know, our our that’s even higher than the nonprofit radio 95% No, uh, 99.99% of nonprofits are not scandalous. And could they, could many of them be running more efficiently. Yes, but we’re not, we’re not talking about mere efficiency. You know, we’re talking about erosion of trust because of high profile crises or scandals malfeasance.

[00:10:37.97] spk_1:
Yeah, high

[00:10:39.21] spk_0:
profile,

[00:10:39.92] spk_1:
not

[00:11:55.21] spk_0:
representative. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They know the nonprofit community and they know pr and journalism. Both partners are former journalists peter pan a pinto, one of the two worked as senior managing editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. And after that he was at the council on foundations. So he understands the nonprofit space very well, which means he understands your challenges, understands how important pr and being a thought leader is to to your work. And the two of them together know how to build relationships with outlets, not just with journalists, but you know, also podcasters, um, conference organizers. So they understand nonprofits, they understand communications, how to build relationships and that’s what’s gonna get you heard across all media. So let’s turn to turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to in nonprofits. Do we trust?

[00:12:00.88] spk_1:
It takes me to another tangent though, now that you talked about efficiency, tony and that’s kind of, we’ve talked about it before and you’ve talked about it with the writers of uh, article or a letter called the overhead myth. I don’t know if you recall

[00:12:16.06] spk_0:
that many years ago. Yes. The C E O. S of charity Navigator better business. Bureau wise giving alliance and guidestar.

[00:13:08.09] spk_1:
Yeah. And you know, they were saying that we shouldn’t, you know, base ratings on a charity in terms of how worthy they are to receive funds from donors simply based on overhead ratio. You know what their admin and fundraising costs are relative to their programmatic costs and those are really wise wise words, um, that that were stated in that letter. But even today we still see organizations even high profile ones that talk about their low overhead ratio. And it can engender trust um, in their organization at the expense of trust of other organizations that legitimately have higher overhead ratios because the infrastructures and you know, the things that they need to do may be completely different. So it’s not fair to, you know, compare across the board and across the maturity of an organization. So

[00:14:06.82] spk_0:
another very valuable thing to invest in is is research, research, uh, maybe maybe going beyond research, activating a new program that, you know, that may or may not succeed, but you have to invest upfront, you know that it’s annoying the folks who hold different opinions about wise investment in technology, you know, it’s Uber should be losing money for the 1st 12 years, you know, because it’s investing in the future. Um, Tesla, you know, non profit unprofitable for many years, but you know, look where they are now, but, but in the nonprofit sector, you know, we don’t we don’t allow that that research and um, spending on innovation, we consider that overhead like, you know, like, like rent, which rent happens to be important too, but you know, something, something um, rent is not a good example, but sort of, you know, frivolous or you know, self indulgent when it could very well be research and and scaling up for for a for a dynamic

[00:14:29.60] spk_1:
future or even things like a living wage.

[00:15:22.90] spk_0:
Yeah. Good. Exactly. Thank you. Yes. Um, yeah, I I don’t like the, you know, I don’t like the double standard where we we we praise it in in some industries, but we we we criticize it uh, in in non profits. And I’m thinking specifically about investment in the future and whether that’s people or programs or even technology, technology is a is a valuable investment. It saves time. It creates productivity, makes people more comfortable at work. It enables them to work out of an office now and be remote, give them that benefit, which so many people are craving now, you know, but these are these are all wise investments, not not um, detrimental overhead.

[00:16:33.02] spk_1:
Yeah, I absolutely agree. And there’s a way to do it cheap. You could invest in technology on the cheap and that might have long term adverse consequences, including to kind of the sort of the data protection and privacy issues that can result. So if you’re really thinking ahead and investing in, not only just technology, just to be sort of more effective and efficient in the short term, the protective of your beneficiaries and your staff and others your donors in the long term, um, then you need to make more of an investment in that. And that’s another thing where, you know, we lose trust if you if you sort of blow your donor lists that are supposed to be private and you know, other big companies get ahold of it and start to target your donor base for unrelated things or even if they’re related sometimes, but not your organization and it was due to a slip on your part or your technology and information technology protocols. You can run into trouble. So again, investments have a double edged sword there. Great. But they can result in a loss of trust too if you’re not managing it properly and you compromise people’s information.

[00:16:41.40] spk_0:
Um, and also, you know, you mentioned living wage but investing in people so that people stay with your organization.

[00:16:48.75] spk_1:
All

[00:16:49.07] spk_0:
right. And that that starts with a living wage that also impacts to on technology. Uh, you know, time away professional development. You know, these are, these are investments in staff that people see and appreciate and make longevity with your organization more likely than you know, than than to to jump ship every six months.

[00:17:11.75] spk_1:
And that builds trust to write, I’m much more comfortable working with you if you’ve been with the charity for 10 years, Tony than if you were hired three months ago and there’s always a different person I’m talking to as a donor.

[00:17:31.13] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. You have some insights into what we as a community or hopefully even individual nonprofits can can start to think about take to their C. E. O. S. Take to their boards. This is always where you Excel gene.

[00:18:33.73] spk_1:
Well in the first steps are kind of simple. Um you know, it’s be compliant yourself, make sure your own houses in order. Um so we can sort of raise all of the issues with where you can lose trust with organizations. Um but even though 99.9% of the organizations are well intentioned, I can’t say that 99.9% of the organizations are compliant. Um so working to make sure you’re compliant Working to make sure that the tone is set at the top with the strong board of directors that is actually providing direction and oversight and not just simply helping you, you know, with fundraising and otherwise just rubber stamping the decisions of the leaders. I think it really is important that the tone be set at the top of the organization through the board of directors. A

[00:18:34.26] spk_0:
tone say say more about the tone.

[00:19:11.50] spk_1:
So the tone of placing the importance of a trusting relationship with our beneficiaries with our employees with our other stakeholders. I think that’s really important and that should be reflected in policies. So it’s not good enough to say, you know, this is what we believe in. So the, you know, one of the hot topics today is a board sets a diversity equity and inclusion policy. But if that policy just sits on the shelf and that’s the end of the discussion of it. And there are no actual changes or action plans attached to that that’s gonna maybe harm the organization more than help it. So the tone at the top means a board that is doing its role in moving that organization forward and focusing um not only on doing good work and, you know, metrics for for programmatic success, but on building trust within and outside of the organization.

[00:20:07.00] spk_0:
And that that Ceo board chair uh Ceo executive committee, if the board has an executive committee relationship is key to this. I mean, they they all whether it’s two people or the Ceo and a committee, you know, need to be uh you know, committed to the same, not only the same mission, but the same uh strategy for getting there. You know, the same commitment to the things that you’re talking about, this needs to be a a unified

[00:20:08.30] spk_1:
working

[00:20:09.10] spk_0:
group at the top between the Ceo and the board leadership.

[00:21:55.36] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s absolutely critical tony I agree. There is, however, sort of another dimension to this which adds complexity and that’s kind of the feeling amongst particularly younger generations. Again, and why there’s a little bit of distrust is too much power focused on the top of an organization without sort of distributing leadership and and the right to participate in this. You know, the bigger decisions of the organization being dispersed throughout the organization and getting input from beneficiaries about um you know, how the organization should evolve or um move forward in further its purpose if we’re not really thinking about getting other voices in it, and particularly if our boards are not very diverse, um that’s gonna engender more distrust as well um with with an organization and this leadership. So while what’s happening at the top level and the relationship between the Ceo and the chair of the board is critically important, it is really important to also make sure that leadership, authority and power is being dispersed down through the organization and that the board actually can listen to directly um input from some of the staff. Um and we shouldn’t create like a wall between board and staff completely. You know, that there’s a little bit of um new thinking on that because the old old ways is like the board should not micromanage right. We should not interfere with staff decisions, which is partly true, but it doesn’t mean that we create a complete block. So the board members don’t see the staff members and the staff don’t see the board and they just don’t know each other. So, um there is a sort of a balance there that needs to be taken.

[00:22:20.82] spk_0:
Can we, can we say a little more about that in terms of examples of how this could be done? Like you’re you’re talking about staff, but also the beneficiaries of the programmatic work. Uh is this um like, I mean, certainly beneficiaries could be members of the board or or is it more an advisory committee, but then to your point, you know, you don’t want it to just be a committee that the board doesn’t listen to. The ceo doesn’t listen to. You know, how can we uh actually execute on on some of this in terms of staff and beneficiaries?

[00:24:23.71] spk_1:
So there are a lot of different ways that it might be done and there’s no one right way for, you know, for all organizations, but getting other voices involved can be done in, you know, um through committees as you suggested, but they can’t just be advisory. If you’re really gonna disperse power, you have to give them some power even if they’re not made up of only board members and some people call any committee that is not composed of only board members, they call them at advisory committees. And because of the name, they think that they can only give advice to the board, but they don’t have any management authority. But that’s not true. You can give these other committees management authority, the way you can give a Ceo or CFO management authority, the board can delegate authority down to these other committees. These non board committees as well. So that may be one way of getting power dispersed through the organization, that that committee might be made up of some employees, some beneficiaries and maybe there is a pipeline so that some of the other people that you’d like to put onto a board, but you might not know very well, you might not have enough experience in certain things that you’d like to have them develop more knowledge of the organization and the work before they possibly a strong candidate for joining the board, but that could be a vehicle or an on ramp to being a board um board member as well. And again, creating a more diverse and stronger board with diverse perspectives and understandings of what the organization does and who it impacts. So I think there are definitely ways and we’ve seen this in other models as well. Some that have worked with some organizations and same models not working with other organizations. Hill Ocracy is sort of one example of that. What

[00:24:24.13] spk_0:
is that drug in jail? What? Hill Ocracy.

[00:25:53.62] spk_1:
Hill Ocracy is a form of management where there are still remnants of hierarchy, but a lot of decision making is made in kind of circles and circles might be employed, they might be employees and others and circles have certain autonomy over their body of decision making. So you might have a circle based on HR issues. So it’s not just one person with the final say, it’s this circle or a group in the law, we would just call it another committee. But um in hypocrisy there all circles and and this was used by some high profile for profit companies and some nonprofits, some had success with it, Some didn’t. So um there are other models out there as well, not one size will fit all, but again, there’s an administrative cost to trying to implement new models, um, but new models or maybe the way that we want to go and their movement organizations all over the place that are impacting how nonprofits and for profits are to be governed and managed. And we should be listening to some of these forces that are out there because they will gradually shape what we’re doing. You can see this by some younger people not sticking with employment as long as they were the great resignation and stuff. If you feel powerless within an organization or if you don’t feel the organization is representing what you want, your employer to be doing, they may not stay and having a little bit of say in what the organization is doing, even if it’s just the starting points because you can’t jump from point a to, you know, to the ideal point in one step, it’s gonna take a long, a long time to get there. But just to seeing that progress may be assigned to somebody to to say, I’m gonna stick around here and and find out

[00:26:35.35] spk_0:
alright creating vehicles for right people’s voices to be heard. Um, and you’re right, it’s, it’s incremental, but just the, just the showing of some progress, some initiative to uh, opening up the leadership, opening

[00:26:38.15] spk_1:
up

[00:26:41.97] spk_0:
strategic decision making, could be, it could be uh, you know, valuable to, to folks right? And encourage them to, to stay versus looking for someplace that’s more inclusive. Yeah.

[00:26:53.98] spk_1:
You know, if your Ceo doesn’t trust the board or if your employees don’t trust the ceo, how are you going to expect donors and your beneficiaries to trust the organization? So it really trust has to be built throughout the organization.

[00:28:41.45] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Fourth dimension technologies. Are you seeing technology as the investment that it is not as an expense, but an investment in your sustainability, your staff productivity, your staff happiness, um, satisfaction, an investment in your donor relations through your crm database. Uh, it’s an investment in your organization’s work and its future. That’s what technology that’s where your technology ought to be thought of. And fourth dimension four D. For short can help you make those investments wisely so that you’re not squandering on something you don’t really need. Like maybe your backup is sufficient, but you need the multi factor authentication installed, etcetera. So you know, they can help you think through smart technology investments. That’s it four D. And you know where the listener landing pages to check them out. It’s at tony dot M A slash four D. Which by the way is just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. Let’s return to in non profits. Do we trust? What else do you see Gene as as things we can we can think about besides this sort of distributed, I’m calling it distributed leadership or maybe you call it distributed leadership. Yeah.

[00:29:32.73] spk_1:
So other things. Maybe some simple tips guard private data. We talked a little bit about it before with technology. If you’ve got data that you’re promising that will be kept confidential. Make sure you’re guarding that. Be careful about automating and depersonalizing interactions with technology as well. Like we could have a sort of a voicemail for everybody and you know, hit one if you want to do this. It too. If you want to do this and completely not let any donor speak to any individual without, you know, spending an hour on the phone that may not be, uh, seen as something that would build trust. So we have to be careful of our uses of technology there as well in our communications. Um, if you’re going to say something, um, don’t talk the talk. If you’re not going to walk the walk, right? So don’t make promises that you’re not going to keep

[00:29:41.70] spk_0:
that for an example of that is A D. I. Policy,

[00:29:45.44] spk_1:
right? Exactly

[00:29:46.80] spk_0:
written and never, never executed or remains written once and never evolves.

[00:31:13.44] spk_1:
And if you have a campaign to engage in a particular, uh, you know, program and you don’t raise enough money. And so that program never runs, you better be explaining this to your donors. Um, why that happened. And the possibility that that might happen when you start fundraising for it. So don’t just say, you know, after the fact when they complain that said, well we didn’t raise enough. So we used your money for other things that’s not going to engender trust. Um remember your mission and your beneficiaries don’t exist in a vacuum, right? Um, so it’s not just about your organization. And if you your numbers go up, um whatever metrics that you use financial performance or number of beneficiaries served whatever they are, you shouldn’t look at it as a silo. You should be looking at the entire ecosystem in which you are participating. And that would be, you know, open up things like environmentalism like you might not think environmental, your organization’s not environmental organization, but if climate change continues and creates hardships that, you know, scientists are predicting, predicting you probably will have an impact on your mission and your beneficiaries. And so to sort of think, just, you know, outside of that, that silo you want to be thinking about what your impact of your decisions will be, not only on your organization and beneficiaries, but on your allied organizations, on the broader community and what will that do to trust as well. So,

[00:32:03.91] spk_0:
a lot of these ideas, a lot of what you’re saying could be, you know, germinating in an advisory committee, you know, how could we look differently at at our contribution to climate change and what climate change means to us in the future for our for our for our people and for our work, but also what could we be doing right now, You know, even if we’re not an environmental organization siloed as you’re saying, you know, we still have an environmental impact. So what what contribution to to minimize climate change or reverse climate change can we make as well as planning for the for the future? Uh you know, that that those kinds of conversations can come out of these um advisory committees that is that are comprised of staff and and beneficiaries. I mean, these are the folks that live the mission day to day.

[00:32:36.09] spk_1:
Yeah, I love that idea to tony Sometimes the board may not have um or feel that they have the bandwidth to sort of discuss these sort of broader issues. Um and they’re a little bit more focused. So having the help um the advisory committee on an issue like like climate change for a non environmental organization or an organization whose mission is not focused on the environment. I think that would be great.

[00:32:45.06] spk_0:
Yeah. And I want to reiterate your point that which I’ve never thought of, advisory committees can be granted policy making authority and and and change within the organization. So whatever that looks like, you know, you can bestow that that authority

[00:33:05.16] spk_1:
Absolutely, and you can give them a budget to even sort of to putting

[00:33:11.20] spk_0:
money behind it. But that that yeah, money talks. That’s a that’s a big step granting them a budget granting them some granting them authority to make change that’s empowering and an advisory committee. All right.

[00:34:01.14] spk_1:
I think, you know, one area of trust that we haven’t spoken yet, but maybe, um why I as a lawyer and talking about these things and you’re not getting it from another consultant, is that the laws can also impact trust and non profits have to decide whether they want to set a position on certain laws. And um, some of the things that I’m thinking about is the deductibility of charitable contributions. So, we’ve had an above the line contribution where non itemizers could deduct as well because of Covid. Um, but that was just temporary. Um, and now there’s sort of a push for, well, we should make a charitable contribution deductible to all taxpayers, and not just about the 10% of taxpayers who itemize, who tend to be, you know, have a little bit more wealth, or some, in some cases a lot more than those who don’t itemize.

[00:34:17.90] spk_0:
Is it that small? The proportion of taxpayers who itemize is around 10%,,

[00:34:22.34] spk_1:
10-13%, is what I’m hearing.

[00:34:24.86] spk_0:
Okay,

[00:35:52.18] spk_1:
So, um, again, you know, part of trust and distrust has to do with concentrations of power and wealth, right? And when the 1% or the .1% control so much policy control the leadership of pivotal organizations in all sectors, and in government, um, there’s going to be a distrusted institutions. Again, that, you know, one third of people distrust big institutions. Um, and, you know, that concentration of wealth and power is, is the reason why. Um so laws that sort of enforce that. So if we just give you no deductible, make make tax benefits to, to richer people who can deduct, who can itemize their deductions and not to others that may feel really unfair to the public. And another reason for distrust. So, will your organization’s, even though tax policy is probably almost no organization’s mission, it has an impact. Um, and so it may be something that organizations want to take a look at. And there are organizations like independent sector of the National Council on nonprofits and others who the Tax Policy center that that can explain this a little bit. But you you may want to take a look and see if you want to put a position on it. And one of the things that I also think, um engender distrust is when the media miss reports, the law in one area where the mis reported it is a lot of media say, charities can’t lobby and that’s just not true. Um, so charities can lobby on things like, you know, the the above the line deduction. Um, and and on other things as well, and there are just certain limits that apply, but they’re often generous, So learn a little bit more and we can build a stronger sector?

[00:36:21.84] spk_0:
Well, you and I have talked about the the lobbying limits on previous shows, is it is it safe to say that the law hasn’t changed over the past? I don’t know, 23 years maybe, since you and I have talked about this.

[00:36:34.17] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:37:06.11] spk_0:
So, so at Tony-Martignetti.com, you can search gene Takagi, you’ll find many episodes that he’s on and one or one or two are about the uh, the lobbying limits, I think, I think the last time may have been 2020 when the pre election. So we may well, with the, with the election in late The election in late 2020, so we may have done something like in mid-2020 or so on the lobbying, uh, exemption or Well, that’s not that’s not that’s not the right phrase. What the limits of lobbying and you make the you just said, you know, they are, they are generous in some cases. It’s not it’s not that it has to be a de minimus proportion of your budget or something.

[00:37:24.83] spk_1:
Yeah, the

[00:37:26.87] spk_0:
yeah,

[00:37:27.68] spk_1:
the losses insubstantial which scares the majority of charities away from doing any of it, but it turns out it can be fairly generous limits to engaging in lobbying.

[00:38:01.79] spk_0:
Okay. Um, and the point that you made before that, I was going to say something about that too. Well, sorry, what did you say? Right before you were talking about the uh, the permissibility of some lobbying activities. You made a point? Yes, thank you. The last thing we want is for Donating to charity to be perceived as, uh, as an elitist activity. That only the only the top now you’re saying whatever 10 or 13% of the population can, can give because they’re the only ones who get the advantage because they’re the only, they’re the ones who itemize their deductions. The last thing we want is for donating to charities to be perceived as an elitist activity.

[00:39:13.92] spk_1:
Yeah, absolutely. tony and with, you know, with our current tax policy, how it works. Um, then I don’t want to get too complicated with that. We are seeing a shrinking middle class. I don’t think there’s anything denying that people, most people have less discretionary income. So if we look at the fundraising statistics now, the giving statistics, we see that, um, even if giving goes up Giving from kind of the middle class and smaller donors has shrunk, um, and, and quite significantly, and it’s, it’s the people, um, that have put in huge contributions that have made up for that. So the Mackenzie Scott, you know, with, I think $13 billion dollars over the last few years, they’re making up for that. But that can change the way nonprofits run if, if it’s all about, again, elite, wealthy, powerful individuals who make the big contributions that then have the ear of the boards of these organizations that then talk about policy and they create policy or, or advocate for policies that keep that dynamic in existence. So it is problematic.

[00:40:52.59] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony Take two. My latest video on linkedin is this is not planned giving uh it’s short under two minutes. I give you an example of what is not planned giving and remind you what planned giving is, how simple planned giving is when it’s done right, when you start with simple gifts by will. But I’ve got kind of a lighthearted back way of looking at it through what planned giving isn’t in the opening. So latest video on linkedin, you’ll find me on linkedin. My name is tony-martignetti by the way that has escaped you. And uh it’s my latest video there That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for in nonprofits. Do we trust with Gene Takagi? Look at this dark potential that people look at at the United States as alright, the wealthy control government because of dark money and and the Citizens United decision, the Supreme Court uh wealthy control business because only wealthy people start and or run run businesses and grow them and only only white males have the access to capital to start businesses. And then and then the perception that um the wealthy control the nonprofit

[00:41:13.41] spk_1:
sector, you

[00:41:21.27] spk_0:
know, and the wealthy control of media, you know, this is all this is all very uh a very detrimental, very dark cynical way of looking at the at the country, but I’m not I’m not sure that where that’s far away from

[00:42:10.55] spk_1:
it. Yeah, I agree. tony And I think past generations, you know, including ours, you know, we’ve always kind of done better than our parents. Our parents were lucky enough to put us in that position. But the younger generations now economically um and maybe, you know health wise and mental health wise, they may not be doing as well as their parents overall and they’re questioning kind of the system because of that. Um and we maybe didn’t question it because our generation did better than our parents um in those terms. But now there is just legitimate questioning of do we need to change these policies and these dynamics and these power structures and um you know, organizations have a say in this and and use your voice, get get people to vote. Maybe that’ll be my my one of my big messages vote

[00:43:27.00] spk_0:
voting is fundamental to although, you know, in a lot of states that’s being eroded you becoming more difficult, although in a lot of states it’s easier to um you know, another thing that comes to mind when, you know, you’re talking about the generations below the the the boomers not doing as well as the one before them. Um The FDA just yesterday recommended mental health screening at regular uh regular doctor visits, like an annual annual health health checkup for everybody under 65 And and they had been considering this policy that this recommendation is just a recommendation to the medical community from from for years before the pandemic. This is not, this is not pandemic-related recommendation. They had been considering this for years before the pandemic that there’s a lot of stress and anxiety among the population under 65 and 65 is basically the baby boomer cut off within a couple of years.

[00:43:59.55] spk_1:
And then, you know, as you noted, this was even before Covid that they’ve been advocating for this and now with Covid and the mental health issues that are sort of go along with not just the disease, but the isolation that many are experiencing and long Covid, which is sort of an underappreciated under recognized problem and disabilities maybe creating more disability, disabled americans than anything. Um, since you know, the World War two, I think would be the last one. It’s just, it’s mind blowing

[00:44:01.44] spk_0:
and I and I and all this does contribute to a decline in trust in all institutions and nonprofit. The nonprofit community is a major institution in the country. So you know, that’s, that’s how this is all related

[00:44:15.09] spk_1:
to what you

[00:44:21.48] spk_0:
and I are talking about. I want to make that connection explicit that anxiety among the population creates anxiety for nonprofits and, and and distrust and disbelief in nonprofit work. Whether that’s justified or not perception is reality.

[00:44:36.71] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree. tony

[00:44:40.74] spk_0:
All right. I don’t know. So we had, we had said one of the things we’re gonna talk about is what happens, what happens if this continues? I mean, I already painted a pretty dark cynical scenario. Um, is there anything more you want to say around? You know, what, what the implications are if the community doesn’t start to help itself?

[00:46:25.73] spk_1:
Well, maybe on a more micro looking basis, it just means for a charity, they’re gonna experience diminished fundraising. Not everybody gets Mackenzie scott, Jeff Bezos money. Right. Most of them are relying upon a pool of donors, um, many of which are aging, um, and may age out of their donor pool. Um, and shrinking again, middle class, shrinking, discretionary income for many people, meaning West donations. Um, we might see more direct giving to individuals as people are saying, well, I don’t trust charities overall. I’d rather just give to my friends who say, you know, somebody is in need as crowdfunding fight sites just continue to, to grow in importance and also in in power as well. Um, and that’s just gonna be to the detriment of, you know, beneficiaries of our charity. So again, in the micro level, we make less money, people trust us less. Our employee retention is less. Um, our donor pool is shrinking and we can help less people even as the need for our services increases. So that’s kind of the dark side look of it. Um, we can try to be the nonprofit that stands out and you know, is the trustworthy non profit from, from a public perception standpoint. Um, that’s good. But again, don’t see yourself in a silo lift yourself up with all the boats in the water and, and really try to strengthen the nonprofit sector where you can, and, and advocating on some of the laws that make things more fair, I think is a good start there

[00:46:41.97] spk_0:
advocating maybe there’s a way of partnering

[00:46:45.00] spk_1:
with other

[00:46:55.64] spk_0:
organizations, not, not in all in all things. I don’t mean a legal formal partnership, but you know, if, if there’s, if there’s a way of working together for an event or, or some kind of advocacy,

[00:47:03.61] spk_1:
you

[00:47:11.44] spk_0:
know, we’ve had shows on the values of that and how to do that. Um, so that everybody, you know it, so that it’s, it’s not seen as a, as a zero sum within your, within your community that if if if someone else, some other organizations benefiting, then you’re losing. You know, that’s not the way to look at,

[00:47:25.67] spk_1:
at,

[00:47:26.47] spk_0:
at the world and and that not nonprofit support. We we all could be or a couple of couple of organizations together could be rising together.

[00:47:37.64] spk_1:
Yeah, I’ll add that the independent sector survey, the Edelman Data Intelligence survey that we mentioned at the start of the show also has some tips on building up trust within the sector. So it’s not all of dark outlook. It’s just encouraging people that the importance of this is very, very high. Um, so let’s go out and actually make things happen? So that, that dark outlook doesn’t happen

[00:48:05.70] spk_0:
within independent sector. Gene, what’s the, what’s the name of the you’re saying? Edelman data?

[00:48:11.03] spk_1:
Yeah, I think they contracted out with Edelman E D E L M A. And Data and intelligence and their third annual reports. This is an annual report is available on the independent sector website.

[00:48:26.66] spk_0:
Okay, thank you. Edelman E D E L M A N,

[00:48:30.68] spk_1:
correct.

[00:48:49.24] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Uh, you mentioned the five oh one C four’s a little bit, but there have been a couple in the news very recently, most recently the uh, Patagonia companies, uh, sort of evolution into a uh, a new nonprofit, a new a new five oh one C four. non profit the hold fast collective.

[00:51:57.05] spk_1:
Yeah. So the founder of Patagonia and his family member, they were the principal owners of Patagonia and they decided to give up ownership of the company, but you know, they gave it not to a charity, but to a 501 C four organization. Um, it’s called the social welfare organization and for listeners who aren’t maybe familiar with it, you probably are familiar with many five oh one C four organizations themselves, like the N. R. A. Planned parenthood, the A. C. L. U. Sierra Club. So these are advocacy organizations that have kind of charitable like purposes. Um, but our can engage in unlimited lobbying and can engage in election nearing or political campaign intervention? Supporting political candidates and political parties, as long as that’s not their primary activity or purpose. So this is sort of the source or one of the big sources of where dark money comes in tony that you mentioned with the Citizens United Decision before donor that wants to support a candidate but stay hidden from public view about their support of the Can rather than giving directly to the candidate, could give to a 501 C four organization and the C Four organization can get their money’s into the candidate. And the donor that is disclosed is the C Four organization, not the donor to the C Four organization. So that’s how you can create dark money. And with the Patagonia case, it’s very clear who the donor was. So we don’t expect that to be the dark money that we’re as leery of, but it’s still, you know, a huge gift which, you know, for somebody who believes in in in the environmental movement I think is a great gift. But news media miss reporting it or some news media are mis reporting it as kind of something that doesn’t get a tax benefit because a donor doesn’t get an income tax deduction for giving to a five oh one C Four organization the way they do if they give to a charity. Um but there are other tax exemptions that apply like a gift tax exemption or in a state tax exemption. So this gift is overall saving. Um uh mr Schwinn nerd um the owner and his family probably somewhere in the realm of $800 million in taxes. Um So it is not completely a no tax benefit transaction. Again this is not to disparage them for taking advantage of a system that allows for these gifts Um to go with with some tax benefits, but it’s not just the income tax deduction that matters in in donations there for for very wealthy people like billionaires. Um the gift and estate tax exemptions which can be 40%, right? So it can be very very high higher than income tax they matter. Um and so that’s something to be aware of that. Um this is a very wealthy person who gave up much of the ownership share, I guess all of his ownership shares to this 501 C4 organization, except really importantly 2% of the gift. Overall gift was given to a trust that’s not a nonprofit.

[00:52:14.55] spk_0:
Yeah those voting, those are the 2% of the voting that are the voting shares,

[00:52:58.58] spk_1:
right? So because they’re in control of that trust with with some close advisers um they have not given control out of Patagonia, right? They still can control Patagonia. Um And again they’re taking advantage of existing law what what it allows but it allows billionaires to not give up control of their company, get an $800 million tax benefit for giving or you know $3 billion Uh to a 501 C4 organization that could spend nearly half of it on endorsing political candidates. Um So it’s kind of an interesting tax system that that allows for that.

[00:53:18.19] spk_0:
And if if you consider that, you know supportive of uh of a liberal progressive cause because the whole fast collective the the new C4 is is devoted to uh the ill effects of climate change, you know, reversing climate change, impacting climate change. Uh So if you consider that of a left cause, then there’s an example on the right side with uh mr barr seed and the marble Freedom Trust. Another five oh one C four.

[00:53:44.39] spk_1:
Yeah. And that sea forces led by Leonard Leo who maybe the person most responsible for the changing of our Supreme Court and therefore the decisions on things like abortion might be largely attributed to mr Leo,

[00:53:56.21] spk_0:
fundraiser and activist and very well connected guy in conservative circles.

[00:56:20.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And used to be Executive vice president of the Federalist Society whose mission was to change the composition of the Supreme Court. So um I I don’t think that’s controversial and that’s just what their goal was. And they were very effective at achieving that goal. But this $1.6 billion kind of same thing. There there are some tax benefits that go along with it. There’s no income tax deduction. Um and mr uh c passed away. I think this was given after his death. But another big contribution to an organization led by somebody who has immense influence and now a huge war chest that can be used for political activities. Again, the primary activity cannot be political campaign intervention. Um, but some people believe, or many people believe that means 49% of the funds can be used for political campaign intervention. And that’s kind of the source of dark money. Although again in this case we do know where the donor came from. Um, so it’s not dark in that way in terms of hidden donors, but it’s still donations that didn’t go directly to the political candidate. It went through five oh one C four first, get the tax benefits for that, which his heirs, I guess would appreciate. Um, uh, and the impact of that again, is that? Well, in both cases, very wealthy people are able to keep control with people who they trust or their family members of their money to be used for political purposes. They can’t use it for themselves to, you know, to buy huge houses and boats, but they can use it for things that were very important to them. But that means for people like us and most of your listeners, tony is like, what influence do we have compared to that individual who gave billions of dollars to influence political elections. Um, and you know, what, you know, can we change our Supreme Court sort of composition the way that they’re able to do, probably not by ourselves. So it again is, is the reason why people go, hey, these are nonprofits that they’re using to do this. I don’t trust non profits, this is what they’re used for. And charities kind of get lumped in because the ordinary, you know, people, the lay person doesn’t know the difference between a five oh one C three and five A one C four organization.

[00:56:36.19] spk_0:
Yeah, and that’s right. And it’s it’s if it’s mentioned in a in in press coverage, you know, it’s mentioned in passing that it it’s it’s an organization that’s distinguished from from uh charities. But you know, it’s like, it’s like a sentence or two. You know, it’s it’s never it’s never a focal point. So your point is correct that people just lump them all together

[00:57:00.57] spk_1:
and flows through nonprofits and that’s why we shouldn’t trust nonprofit.

[00:57:04.97] spk_0:
So the wealthy control government and they control politics and they control business and media and and nonprofits.

[00:57:18.46] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s that’s what we, We’re finding more and more is the case, but we’re trying to change policies and change minds about this so that we can see that the impact of the 99.9% out there is actually even bigger than the impact that we mentioned about a few individuals. Um, it just has to be organized. Um, and non profits are way to do that.

[00:58:21.68] spk_0:
Well, that’s a, that’s a pretty good way to close. Probably we should have closed with what our community can do. But you know, you’re suffering the lackluster host. So uh you can rewind to that section and then uh fast forward and you can end with that if you want to. Um, but but jean, you know, always thank you, you know, sort of reality, but also wisdom and inspiration. And and not only um ethereal pedagogical inspiration, but you know, ideas that we can we can we can act on. So thank you. Thank you.

[00:58:24.63] spk_1:
Thank you Tony. And your closing statement is actually always the greatest ending. So, I’m looking forward to hearing it.

[00:59:39.16] spk_0:
Okay, All right, thank you jean. Next week. Let’s see what develops and why do I even say uh, next week if I don’t know what’s coming up next week, but we’re here we are. We’re talking about trust and part of that is transparency. So I’m being transparent that I don’t know what next week’s show is gonna be, I know what the 1 to 2 weeks from now is gonna be. We’re gonna have beth cancer and Allison fine talking about their new book, but I can’t promise that for next week because well, that would be a lie and that’s going to reach the trust because they’re not on next week. Next week. Uh, it’s up in the air, but trust me, it’ll be just that’s conclusory. Just trust me now, I hope you trust non profit radio I’ll find something good if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com responses by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box, the affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four

[00:59:48.37] spk_1:
D. Just

[01:00:03.54] spk_0:
Like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. A creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff to show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Here it is, Jean, go out and be great.