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Nonprofit Radio for January 24, 2020: Social Change Is Systems Change

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My Guest:

Heather McLeod Grant: Social Change Is Systems Change
And to change systems, you need to employ networks. Those networks need leaders and facilitators. Enter Heather McLeod Grant. She is co-author of the workbook, “Leading Systems Change.”




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[00:00:14.34] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:00:35.42] spk_3:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our third show in the Innovators. Siri’s social change is systems change and to change systems, you need to employ networks. Those networks need leaders and facilitators. Enter Heather Macleod Grant. She’s co author of the workbook Leading systems change and here start the live innovators that I promised you were becoming.

[00:00:49.43] spk_2:
Here they are on tony Stake to

[00:00:54.17] spk_3:
planned giving for the decade Responsive by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:00:59.80] spk_2:
Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:32.39] spk_3:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Now let’s meet Heather Macleod Grant. She is co founder of Open Impact, a philanthropic advising farm and a published author, speaker and consultant with more than 25 years experience in social change. The company is at open impact dot Io, and she’s at H M C Grant. Welcome, Heather Macleod. Grant.

[00:01:41.61] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony. I’m excited to be here, and thanks for having me back on the show.

[00:02:00.52] spk_2:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. Absolutely. It’s good to have you back. Um, so this is interesting work. This system’s change for social change. Um, why don’t you, um, get us started? Well, let me lay a little.

[00:02:23.84] spk_3:
I should guess I should let a little ground work. So there were There were these two to programs in San Joaquin Valley in California. You inaugurated the 1st 1 in Fresno County, and then your co author, Roedean a Dean Sacks inaugurated the 2nd 1 status last county two years later. Um, what? So just lay a little simple ground work? Why don’t you give us an overview? You know, beyond that, what kinds of changes were needed? What’s the San Joaquin Valley like? And you know, of course, we have the hour together, so you don’t have to pack a tony detail in here.

[00:02:40.04] spk_4:
Yeah. Great. Absolutely. Um well, I’ll start by saying that I actually grew up in the San Joaquin Valley, California. I’m actually from Fresno. My family still lives there

[00:02:49.63] spk_2:
now live

[00:03:13.72] spk_4:
in the Bay Area of California. But I spent many formative years in that region, and, um, it’s the central part of the state of California. It’s actually quite unlike what I think most people imagine when they think of California. They probably think of Hollywood and palm trees and beaches in Southern Cal, and they might think about Silicon Valley and technology in the Bay Area. But

[00:03:14.70] spk_2:
the Central

[00:03:24.72] spk_4:
Valley is a big agricultural region, and, you know, as we learned, it actually has a lot of social and environmental challenges and problems. That’s sort of the beginning of the story, and I’m happy to get into more details about that.

[00:03:29.32] spk_2:
Okay, let’s let’s, uh, do a better job than I

[00:03:32.49] spk_3:
did. I mean, I just laid out basic details, but, you know, basic stuff. But let’s talk about what those communities air like. You talk about social environmental challenges. I think they’re pretty ubiquitous. But you, uh, you tell me if I’m wrong, you lay it out. What kind of challenges these social change makers needed to overcome?

[00:07:01.85] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. So Fresno, just situated Fresno is a community of just under a 1,000,000 people. If you include the kind of surrounding areas the city of Fresno has about half a 1,000,000. Resident Stanislas is about half that size, and they are into central counties in the central part of the state. I would say the big challenges air because it’s an agricultural region. They’ve struggled for a long time with air quality issues and water quality issues. You know, pesticides from farming running off into the water supply duct from agriculture, along with urban pollution blowing into the valley from the Bay Area and the Coast and Los Angeles. They also have many of the same problems confronting many states in the central part of our country in the Midwest. Opioid crisis very high poverty rate, seasonal migrant labor. So big immigrant populations which of course, leads to racial and ethnic diversity, which can be a strength. But many of these particularly Hispanic families living in smaller communities have very, very high unemployment rates. They don’t have good social service is. So I could go on, but many of the same kinds of problems that we’re seeing across the country and you add to that, you know, political polarization again, people think of California is being very liberal. But the central part of the state, the Central Valley, is actually quite conservative. There’s a strong evangelical base. You draft through the value. See lots of Trump signed. Um, historically, the politics have been more red than blue, so it’s kind of a red island in a blue state, if you will. And that’s also led Thio increasing tensions and conflicts politically. So that was the backdrop for this program. And when the Irvine Foundation about a decade ago was doing listening tours and I should explain the Irvine Foundation of a statewide foundation to give the way about $75 million a year in the state of California. They were particularly interested in funding and supporting the family King Valley because it was historically overlooked. It doesn’t have the same kind of wealth and philanthropic resources that the area or Southern California have. So they were really interested in investing in building local community leadership capacity, and they did a listening to her about a decade ago. They heard from leaders that we want to help solve problems in our community, but we don’t have the tools and resources and the know how to do that. So we would love for you to invest in us. That’s exactly what the Irvine Foundation did. They kicked off this program. They hired myself and the firm. I was out at the time to do some initial research. And I can get you more into what we learned about the communities that we did some research. We designed a program. And then we ran this leadership in capacity building program over the last six years in these two counties. As you noted, we started in Fresno for three years, and then we replicated the program in a neighboring community in Stanislaus County. So yeah,

[00:07:02.52] spk_2:
and that I’m

[00:07:03.17] spk_4:
excited to dig into more of that.

[00:07:05.68] spk_3:
Well, I want to thank you very much for being a guest. That’s all the time we have.

[00:07:13.86] spk_2:
Heather, come on. I’m joking. All right. Um, yeah, it’s hard to

[00:07:30.06] spk_3:
imagine. I’m sure they exist. Maybe utopian communities in the U. S. But, I mean, it’s hard to imagine a community that doesn’t have at least some of what you’re describing, Um, economically, racially, politically, environmentally. I feel like I said, I feel like these challenges are ubiquitous. If if not in every community. I think most communities are suffering from a least a couple. So I think this has enormous relevance for the for our country.

[00:07:52.15] spk_2:
Uh, okay, yeah. Um, so So you you brought together a bunch

[00:08:14.34] spk_3:
of selected leaders of NGOs in the Let’s let’s let’s not lump them together. Let’s start with you. Were you were the leader in Fresno and that was the That was the inaugural program. So you know, we’ll talk about that one. We’re

[00:08:14.48] spk_2:
going to go out

[00:08:16.79] spk_3:
for our first break, but lets you know when we come back. Let’s start talking about how isolation is not gonna lead to big changes. And you know what? The what the workbook is about the how to sound good. Sound good.

[00:08:30.03] spk_4:
Sounds good to me.

[00:08:32.25] spk_2:
Okay. And we need to take that

[00:08:46.01] spk_3:
first break wegner-C.P.As beyond the numbers, they’ve got videos. Do you have immigrant employees? They’ve got I nine tips, and I’m talking about some of those issues today. They’ve got high impact grant proposal video also, sexual harassment awareness and other videos. All in the resource section, wegner-C.P.As dot com. Quick resource is and recorded events.

[00:09:07.08] spk_2:
Let’s do the live love. I feel like doing it early today. So let’s shout out. Fairfield, Connecticut, Tampa, Florida, Miami, Florida, Philadelphia and Salt Lake City, Utah. Live listener love to each of our listeners there. Where’s New York? New York? I don’t see Well, I’m here. But where’s the rest

[00:10:41.34] spk_3:
of New York City? Um, going, Going outside the States. We’ve got Seoul, South Korea. Always such loyal listeners. South Korea Very grateful to you and your house. Oh, come so ham Nida and a Tokyo equally loyal Thank you so much Tokyo Konnichi wa And of course, But the live listener Love’s got to come the podcast Pleasantries. So I give you lots of Oh, I give you lots of, um, lots of thanks to our over 13,000 listeners in the podcast community wherever we fit into your schedule Weekly monthly Semiannual If you’re binging your podcasts together that that infrequently pleasantries to you I’m glad you’re with us And late breaking late breaking Ah, lifeless Their love of Vancouver, Vancouver, British Columbia. Live love to you, of course as well. All right. Thank you, Heather. That indulgence. We’ll have a couple more of those. I’ll always let you know when they’re coming up Okay, so you convene these selected leaders and you know, we listeners just have to get the book way. Can’t spend detail we can’t spend time on. You know how you selected or who. But suffice to say, it was not just a lottery, and you were You were thoughtful about the leaders you selected in the Fresno community, um, to try toe to try to teach them leadership because they can’t make the changes to the systems that they need to need to be changed. Working independently in isolation.

[00:10:50.24] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s right, tony. I think the big ah ha that we had when we did the initial research that informed the program design was initially the Irvine Foundation was thinking about supporting non profit leaders. And I know your show focuses a lot of non profit leaders, but one of our big insight was that non profit leaders cannot alone solve level problems.

[00:11:13.51] spk_2:

[00:12:21.35] spk_4:
lot of the structures that were living in our designed on and run through business, right, and the market economy or through government. So the resources of government and business are much larger than the resources of the nonprofit sector. And when we went out and did these initial interviews, we decided we really need to design across sector program. So I think that’s the biggest inside around the who we selected. We deliberately brought together leaders in the community, from the nonprofit sector, from the faith based sector from the business sector, including agricultural leaders from government, local government and county government. From media I could go on. So it was a very intentionally diverse group of leaders that we brought together. They all had proven track records in their community, but many of them were working kind of head down in their own silos and they weren’t seeing the bigger picture. They weren’t seeing how many of these things are interconnected. And so by bringing them together and putting them through this program, we helped them get out of their silos, begin to build relationships across the sector, lines begin. Thio collaborate across their differences, which included political differences but also ethnic cultural differences, age differences, gender differences and so on.

[00:12:41.83] spk_3:
And thank you. I I stated it too narrowly. It was way beyond just NGO leaders and you created the New Leadership Network and there was a lot of learnings around that. Let’s flush that out. What was that about?

[00:12:51.16] spk_4:
Sure. Well, we did we again. We didn’t want to just focus on management. So many leadership programs really focused on training leaders for a very particular context,

[00:13:02.31] spk_2:
like business

[00:14:28.25] spk_4:
leadership program or not, profit leadership program. We really wanted to look at community leadership and systems leadership. How do you actually help these leaders become agents of change in the larger context in the larger community and work on the big interrupt, seemingly intractable problems, environmental issues, poverty, income, inequality, etcetera? And to do that, we brought in a lot of the latest thinking in this sector. So we created a curriculum andan experience, and I want to say experience, because truly the program was experiential. We know that adults learn best through peer situations and through active learning, not just being lectured out for 10 hours with a bunch of power points lives. So we brought together frameworks around systems, thinking, helping them sort of do interactive exercises, toe, identify systems level problems in their communities and start to see from that bigger picture how these issues are interrelated and connected. We also brought in network thinking So this idea that you need to actually build networks to change systems systems are made up of people, and so you need to get groups of people collaborating and coordinating within the system to begin to change it. We brought in some design thinking from the D School at Stanford, because design thinking, you know, is a really interesting methodology that historically has been applied to business innovation and product innovation but increasingly is being applied to solving social problems. So the idea of going out into the community and doing user centered interviews, almost anthropological research to find out

[00:14:39.62] spk_2:

[00:15:28.04] spk_4:
what does it feel like to be, ah, young adult in the juvenile justice system in this community? And what can you learn from that? To begin to design new solutions? We also brought in an equity Lynn’s everything we did because we believe that without looking at how dynamics of power and erase and equity are playing out, it’s really hard to solve these problems. And then, lastly, we brought in things like coaching an individual leadership development. So those those were the kind of five pillars, if you will, of the program designed Systems Thinking Network thinking behind thinking equity and leader, individual leadership development. And together we created a program that ran for about nine days. So each of these leaders went through a smaller co court, convened for nine days over a period of six months where they did lots of interactive exercises, really built trust relationship, they

[00:15:38.68] spk_3:
So they met. They met three times for three days each, right over those six months. All right, OK. And how many individuals were in the first cohort in Fresno?

[00:15:48.11] spk_4:
Yeah, but we ran about between 12 and 15 per cohort.

[00:15:51.83] spk_2:
So it hold

[00:16:04.21] spk_4:
on, we ran for Coke. Or so we had about 50 leaders total in the community by the end of several years of the program. And it was about the same in Stanislaw Stanislaw. The code words were slightly larger, but we ended up with almost the total of 100. Individual leaders who’d come through this program in both communities over the course of five years

[00:16:20.14] spk_2:
could use a little more about the design thinking how that how that applies to this work. Yeah, absolutely. So

[00:16:22.38] spk_4:
the way I think of it, a system thinking is about being up on the balcony, if you will. This is Ron haIf. It’s great leadership. Goober out of Harvard, who writes about this being on the balcony and having that kind of bird’s eye perspective looking down on the dance

[00:16:35.72] spk_2:

[00:17:48.41] spk_4:
restart to see the pattern and the dynamic issues going on in the community. I think of design thinking as being down on the dance floor like it’s really grounded and individual experiences. And so by bringing those two together those two perspectives the kind of bird’s eye view and the deeply grounded perspective of how individuals experience their community, you can actually start to create really interesting and creative solutions. So 18 fax, who wasn’t able to join on the call today but was my colleague and running this program and she has you mentioned, launched the Stanislas replication sight. She had spent a year is a fellow at the Stanford design School that has no partner school of design, and you can look that up online. And they have really interesting programs where they’ve gotten quite interested in how you take design. Thinking which is simply a process, is structuring a problem in getting very creative about innovating solutions around that problem. She’s gone through a year. Fellowship the D school. We thought this is a really interesting methodology and tool that we think could be applied to solving community level problems. So the D school doing some of that work we’re doing network? There are other practitioners around the country who started using design thinking as a tool for innovation and creative problem solving in the social sector and around social and environmental problems. Not just technology problems or product design.

[00:18:05.15] spk_3:
You interested? You call it the D school? Um, but you’re only saving one syllable design or d you feel strongly about D school? We have to stick with the school is okay if I say design?

[00:18:14.94] spk_4:
Oh, it’s totally fine. That’s that’s just the shorthand that

[00:18:21.09] spk_2:
everybody calls. Okay, if

[00:18:21.27] spk_3:
I was if I was local and I’m an outsider, I see. Okay. Okay.

[00:18:29.97] spk_5:
Um uh, okay, um,

[00:18:31.40] spk_2:
so you’re trying to move

[00:18:57.11] spk_3:
these leaders from sort of scattered action in isolation into connection connected action, and you mentioned a little about empathy, and but I see that that’s got among these among them. The individual groups, the 12 or 15. You’ve got to build a lot of a lot of trust and empathy. I would think for them to be working, working together as a as a formative network going forward.

[00:19:31.11] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s where, like, the book we really designed, the book is a workbook. We wanted to kind of open source this model and share the frameworks and the tools and the methods that we used in this leadership programs so that other communities will hopefully access, hit and think about how they might use some of this in their own communities. But this, um, yeah, this question of how the leader is, you know, built trust really came down to taking the time to slow down and intentionally build relationships and have them get to know one another at a deeper level,

[00:19:39.99] spk_2:
like getting

[00:20:52.29] spk_4:
beyond superficial things like your resume or your job title or even what political party you have. Will he ate with. So we began the weekend, You know, we would do these convening that retreat centers up in the mountains. We get them out of their day to day. Um and we really started with these very, very personal introductions where people would talk about why they do what they do so their interior motivations, what they’re passionate about, what really drives their work in the world. And when you get past a lot of the partisan rhetoric and the sound bite, the way our immediate typically framed these issues, you actually find that we all have so much in common. We want healthy communities. We want to raise our kids in safe spaces. We want everyone to have opportunities to succeed. Um, you know, we want good health care systems and good education system and, you know, by by grounding it in those personal stories at the very beginning, people were incredibly vulnerable and, you know, they would tell very personal stories about, you know, just one participant that comes to mind. And Fresno, who’d grown up in a low income immigrant community whose mom was a migrant worker across the border, came here, and he grew up in a community where there were no sidewalks. There was no running water like there were no service is. I mean, it’s like 1/3 world country and, you know, hearing those stories was incredibly moving. Um, and again, I don’t care what your political persuasion is. A lot of This was about starting to build those alliances across traditional party lines, not making it about politics, but making it about people coming together to build trust, to build relationships and the link arms to solve problems in their communities.

[00:21:36.49] spk_3:
Yeah, you hit on such fundamental core values that I think every American shares opportunity, access to education, health care, equity. I mean, I think, Yeah, I think we all want these things. It’s then the divisions come about and we’re talking about how to achieve them,

[00:21:47.89] spk_2:
right? Exactly and okay. And

[00:23:23.44] spk_4:
we see that playing out the national level. And I think that’s one of the things you know. I spent my whole career in and around social change, and for a long time I really worked with big national organizations. I lived in D. C. For four years. I have lots of friends working in politics, and, you know, one of the beauties of being grounded and local community is actually when you get the local level, this is much less partisan. You know, we might disagree sometimes about the means to the end, but if you take it out of the context of policy debates and you actually start talking about, Like, practically speaking, what can we do to reduce homelessness in our community? Or what can we do to reduce income inequality? What can we do to make sure that kids have access to education so they could be contributing members to our society? Be economically productive, have a good life? Um, it takes it out of that kind of national divisiveness that we’re seeing so much on the news. And it really grounds in the context of local communities, which in some ways I feel like this is this is the great history of America, right? This is what the total was writing about more than 100 years ago. Um, you know, when when people in communities came together and build barns and solved their local problems without a lot of federal top down kind of intervention, you know, they had to be resourceful, and they had to be scrappy, and they had to be collaborative. And so in some ways, I think it’s getting back to that perspective of taking it away from the national polarization and grounding it in very practical problem solving. I’m

[00:23:23.60] spk_2:

[00:23:29.88] spk_4:
turning it into policy debates. In fact, we actually did not have elected leaders go through the program. We in Fresno. Um, we experimented that without a little more in Stanislas, we had a mirror in the program. What we found is, if you have elected officials, they can’t be truly

[00:23:40.27] spk_2:
horrible. Honest.

[00:23:52.73] spk_4:
They end up posturing more so So we actually found that it was better. Just have leaders who you might be some people who work in and around politics or previously been elected or might in the future, run for office. But there is something about the way we’ve constructed politics in our country right now that, um, you know, they just have to be so much posturing

[00:24:02.87] spk_2:
and concerned

[00:24:03.84] spk_4:
about money and re election, and that could be pretty toxic.

[00:24:07.81] spk_2:

[00:24:13.44] spk_4:
we really focused on leaders who were much more interested in the practical solution side of things.

[00:24:21.74] spk_3:
Yeah. I could absolutely see that. You know, there’s a persona for politicians that can’t be broken. You know what? Unless they’re in their home. I guess so. I could understand that, But you experimented. You know, this is all that. This is all a work in progress. You make that clear in the book there. There’s you learned. You learned a lot from Fresno to Stannis Laos, and there’s more to be learned. Um,

[00:24:36.98] spk_2:
yeah, so So you lived in Washington,

[00:24:38.92] spk_3:
D. C. For four years. So you were an East coaster for a while.

[00:24:42.64] spk_4:
I was

[00:24:43.14] spk_2:
I went to

[00:25:05.15] spk_4:
school in Boston, so I grew up in Fresno. I went back east to college in Boston, and then I was in Washington, D C. For four years right out of college. And I also spent two years in between in Europe. I had a rotary scholarship to study abroad and ended up working for the helpful of Europe in Strasbourg a long time ago.

[00:25:06.17] spk_2:
Okay, Yes. I

[00:25:07.52] spk_4:
have to meet experience and some international experience before landing back in California.

[00:25:12.45] spk_2:
OK, I’m just trying to focus on our differences. Now I’m a

[00:25:28.44] spk_3:
divider. So I either East coast sentiment is West Coast sentiment. I I’m trying to divide us the counter act. Your counteract your work, work. I’m working on either side. No, Um,

[00:25:36.34] spk_2:
you need to laugh. More help. Come on. How can I possibly be serious about this? Come on, come on. What were you saying? What did you say? Oh,

[00:25:38.27] spk_4:
I was just gonna say I might be bicoastal for most of my life, but I was actually born in Lincoln, Nebraska. So at my core, I’m a corn.

[00:25:45.63] spk_2:
I thought you

[00:25:46.23] spk_3:
were born in Fresno. Oh, okay. Your Midwestern.

[00:25:48.66] spk_4:
I was raised in

[00:25:49.59] spk_2:
front of my parents. Moved

[00:25:57.33] spk_4:
out there when I was three weeks old. My dad actually taught at the local university president State. He’s now retired, but, um, yes, you gotta He got a job there and moved out in the late sixties when I was a baby.

[00:26:07.03] spk_3:
Okay, so you’ve been East West and Midwest. Um,

[00:26:07.82] spk_2:
let’s talk about

[00:26:08.44] spk_3:
the guy. We it framework before we wait. We got a couple minutes before next next break. So the guy we had framework that was part of the new leadership network. Explain that a little bit.

[00:28:42.19] spk_4:
Sure. Yes. This is really just a shorthand, simple way of thinking about the different levels of the local systems that we were working on for us. The eye is like the leader, right? The individual Who are you as a leader? How do you show up? What is your You know, kind of, um, you know what? Your core values And how do you live that out? So one of the big lessons from Fresno to Stanislas was and Fresno. We were initially much more focused on the week for the network level, and then the system level the level, and we realized we were missing an opportunity to help these leaders build their own individual skills. So we brought an individual coaching as the court component of the program in Stanislaus again, as you said, we were iterating and learning and making adjustments as we went, which, by the way, is very much in the spirit of design thinking. It’s about iterating and constant improvement and refinement. The we is really the network level. So when we talk about, we were like, Who’s the greater we in a community who are the leaders are gonna join, you know our forces and solve problems. And so for us that we was actually building those relationships and building this network that cut across all of these lines of difference. Cut across sector, Silas cut across ethnic and racial difference, cut across political differences and so on. So the we was really about the network and, you know, I can talk a little bit later. If you’re interested in terms of how we evaluated, what impact we saw, Um, and then it was really the system level. So what are you know, the big problems that we’re trying to solve? What is the objective of our coming together and building our leadership skills? Building these relationships? It’s to solve these problems. So the it was kind of the container for thinking about, you know, everything from, um, racial justice in, you know, local law enforcement systems thio creating early childhood development programs to give low income kids. You know, that head started that boost, that they need to be ready for kindergarten. So we saw all kinds of different collaborations and projects emerge from this program. And that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about the it is the work itself. And you know, the projects in the programs that were driving direct impact on the community. And I hope after the next break, tony, I’d love to talk a little bit about some of the impact that we were seeing on these different levels.

[00:28:45.32] spk_2:
We’re gonna get to impact. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Uh um, it may not be right

[00:30:13.22] spk_3:
after the break, though. Give me a chance. I want to flush out. I want to flush out of them or I we it. But we gotta take this break right now. Quote. We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they are always there to help walk me through it. End quote. That’s Sally Hancock in Altoona, Pennsylvania. More raves about the Cougar Mountain customer service. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page for Cougar Mountain accounting software, and you’ll find that at now time for Tony’s Take Two. Your Decade Plan for planned giving. It’s not only the beginning of a new year, of course, but, ah, new decade. So my thinking was, What if you started planned giving in 2020. You kicked off your plans giving fundraising program this year. How far could you be by 2029? Very far. You’ll be amazed at what you could be doing over the next 10 years and in the 10th year, if you start your plan giving program this year, you and I hear this so many times I’m guessing if you don’t have. If you’re not engaged in planned giving, you probably are cursing your predecessors for not having started it 10 years ago, so you don’t want to be cursed by your successors. So if you start in 2020 you can be offering all different kinds of gift vehicles way beyond the request that I always urge you to start with.

[00:30:26.07] spk_2:
You could in 10 years you

[00:30:57.74] spk_3:
could even be at the point where you’re forecasting planned giving revenue based on the years prior. So I say a lot more about this in a decade plan. I’ve got your decade plan for planned giving. It’s in the video, and the video is at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony Steak, too. Now let’s go back to social change his system to change our third entry in the innovators. Siri’s talking with Heather Macleod Grant, co author of the book leading systems Change.

[00:31:06.44] spk_2:
Okay, Heather, Um, so the you’re you’re I training. I just wanna make

[00:31:10.18] spk_3:
a few points that stood out for me, the not the I training, but the eye component of the highway. Yet you’re

[00:31:19.54] spk_2:
clear to say that it’s not, as you did

[00:31:26.67] spk_3:
say, earlier. But I want Oh, I like to hit points home out of maybe I bludgeoned points to death, but it’s not. It was not individual management management training. Not not about heroics and individual is, um, you make that point?

[00:32:39.14] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. So we It’s interesting. There’s been a whole body of work around in the social sector. Run Collective impact. Right? Collaboration like that’s been a huge thing for the last decade. Distance changed systems leadership. There was an article written in Stanford Social Innovation Review a few years back by FSG writing about systems leaders with Peterson Gay, who’s a great system sinker and theorist out of M I T. Um, So when we designed this program, we were very intent on thinking about leaders who are giving back and want to lead to change systems, not leaving for their own ego, not leading to get to the top of the career ladder, not leading with a really hierarchical kind of mindset, but really leading with a systems mindset or a collaborative mindset. So we, of course, designed the eye components very differently from a number of traditional leadership programs. But this is not just about elevating yourself above everybody else. Uh, this is really about being someone who could bring others together in the community

[00:32:45.45] spk_3:
who can

[00:32:55.47] spk_4:
facilitate hard conversations who can help create a shared vision who can help people collaborate and build trust, um, and can help move these groups forward across these diverse lines. And so, systems leadership really is quite different than how I think we traditionally think of leadership. Like the kind of heroic individual the Shackleton, you know, I’m gonna get to the North Pole. Um, no matter what and on. So So we really drew under the whole body of work. And I don’t want to bore your listeners with all the theory, But there’s a whole body of work around servant leadership systems, leadership network leadership that were really drew upon to inform kind of the model of leadership we were trying to instill in these folks.

[00:33:34.74] spk_3:
Well, this is my listeners need to get the book because the resource is air listed. Uh, why don’t we make it explicit? We’ll say it again. If I forget to say it at the end, you can remind me to say that you can just say again how dear listeners get the book

[00:33:47.88] spk_4:
so they can go to the website new leadership network dot org’s Just Google It. Or if you, Google leading systems change the title of the book, it should come up in a Google search. It will take you right to that website platform for the New Leadership Network, where on the home page you’ll see a very obvious link to download the book. You can also go to the Open Impact Website, my firm, open impact dot io and under our thought leadership, an inside page. There’s also willing to download the book

[00:34:20.12] spk_2:

[00:34:20.43] spk_4:
multiple ways. But if you Google leading systems change should be one of the top links

[00:34:25.67] spk_3:
are just new leadership network dot org’s.

[00:34:30.66] spk_2:
Okay, okay, Now, in the in the week

[00:34:38.61] spk_3:
component of this, you make the point again. Something struck me. Stood out for me was that working in community in network goes back to ancient times.

[00:36:18.13] spk_4:
Yes, so we don’t pretend that we have invented something brand new. I think you know, human nature is, you know, the very core were tribal and social people, right? We lived in tribes before we formed cities before we formed city states before we formed nations. Um and so at our core, I think human beings are social living community. But what I think is different over the last few decades through sociology, social network analysis on a lot of these new tools that we use network mapping, which is just a kind of fun hi tech tool where you can actually show the linkages between people increasing over time. You could start to quote unquote measure social capital in a community. I know I’m geeking out a little bit, but we really used again a lot of the the frameworks and theories around network and social networks and how relationships get formed to inform how we helped these leaders, you know, build built this community locally and again. There’s examples of the different tools, and resource is in the book. But I think at the core, you know, if you think about LinkedIn, I know Facebook is kind of in the dog house these days. But if you think about the theory underpinning online social networks, it’s not actually that different. I think the biggest difference is when you’re working in face to face networks and people living in a shared community not just online. It’s not just virtual, you know, they see each other at the grocery store. They run into each other,

[00:36:21.14] spk_2:
like having kids

[00:36:35.87] spk_4:
at the same school. They have a shared context, and they have shared problems that they want to solve. And so that was kind of the backdrop, for for bringing people together and very intentionally helping them start to build this trust and understanding with one another in a shared understanding of their community, so that they could start to collaborate on problems.

[00:36:48.38] spk_2:
And in the end, the systems that that is not part

[00:36:50.78] spk_3:
of sort of Western thinking and teaching to think of the system, the systems that were trying to impact.

[00:37:01.43] spk_4:
Yeah, So it’s interesting Western thinking, you know, historically, the kind of

[00:37:06.67] spk_2:
scientific break

[00:39:17.37] spk_4:
a problem down into its smallest component parts. And if you look a like academic framework is all about specialization specialization, you become a very specific expert at a very specific thing. Systems thinking is almost the opposite. It’s about seeing the big picture. I would argue that, you know, yes, it has sort of flavors of Eastern thinking in Yang Dynamics, but it’s actually been a part of our history and culture as well. If you look a TTE, for example, environmental sciences, they look at ecosystems. They look at how you know that the whole video online that went viral around the wolves in Yellowstone and how reintroducing wolves into an ecosystem actually fundamentally changed the course of the river’s right, which is kind of mind boggling. But you actually look at the way things interact with one another. The systems thinking is about the inter relationship of different dynamic systems and how you know kind of cause and effect moved on, how certain things influence other things. Um, so so looking at systems thinking, you know, and by the way, that engineers think in terms of systems, you know the Internet is the system, if you will. Capitalism is our democracies system. It’s got lots of component parts parts. So by looking at systems, you actually start to see the inter relationship of things and not see things in isolation, as we’ve often been taught in school, where you have very specific subjects and they’re all in their boxes. So it’s a much more interdisciplinary ways, thinking it’s a much more holistic way of thinking and again, it really focuses on how things are in a related like for example, you know, I’ve done a lot of work in early childhood development space. We now know that if a child is growing up with trauma in a community where there’s violence or where they may not have a regular parental presence or there’s a lot of instability that’s actually impacting their brain, which impacts how they perform in school, which impacts whether or not they can become a self sufficient, contributing citizen, right and hold down a job. So these air, these are complex systems that were working in. And I think we would, um, do better if we actually look att, these some of these issues much more holistically and start to see those interconnections.

[00:39:32.62] spk_3:
I feel like other other countries. Other cultures are further ahead in their thinking then and teachings then then we are in this respect.

[00:39:41.98] spk_4:
Well, it’s interesting. I mean, that’s really interesting question. I haven’t thought about it that much in terms of the international context. I do know there was a whole again we didn’t invent any of these frameworks. We actually drew upon whole bodies of literature and deep research and deep theory on practice. The system thinking has actually been around for 2030 years. There was a great author named Danela Meadows, who was writing about environment and climate change, which is is perhaps the definition of a systems problem. Climate change is not one thing

[00:40:12.16] spk_2:
driving it.

[00:40:42.72] spk_4:
It’s many, many, many things. It’s the way we set up economic incentives so that companies complete but not have to pay for the the impact of that pollution, right? It’s the way we’ve set up consumption, people ordering things to their house and Amazon, which leaves more packaging with, you know, I could go on and on, but again, it’s kind of looking at that problem more holistically. So that’s been around, particularly in environmental field for quite a long time. And systems dynamics also again informed things like how the Internet was designed. It’s been around for a while, but it’s perhaps not a mainstream. It does tend to be a little bit academic and a little bit wonky, and I’ve worked with some of these folks who have Ph. D’s and systems thinking, and they want to build the really complex, dynamic models like that spaghetti diagram of Afghanistan in The New York Times about a decade ago is the perfect example. So it tends to be a little wonky. Therefore, it hasn’t gotten as much mainstream traction. Um, yeah.

[00:41:11.68] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Um, so the let’s transition

[00:41:18.49] spk_3:
to the impact. Um, and we just have about two minutes now before break before our for our final break.

[00:41:22.56] spk_2:
So on the on the individual side and we’ll get to the communities as well. But on the individual side, what kind of

[00:41:29.03] spk_3:
changes did you see as people went through the new leadership network?

[00:41:49.47] spk_4:
So a lot of different changes. We tracked this mostly through self reported survey. So again, it’s, you know, it’s it’s not perfectly scientific, it’s not as objective is measuring, you know, physical changes. But we did. We did track changes over time and individual leaders, and we we saw a lot of different things. So first of all, many of them self reported much greater confidence in their leadership abilities, thehe bility to actually talk about and understand community problems and bring people together to solve those problems. So we have lots of data on that, just in terms of they built new skills, they enhance their confidence. They felt more optimistic

[00:42:15.29] spk_2:

[00:43:02.20] spk_4:
solving problems in their community. They no longer felt so isolated or alone. We also saw external changes, like about more than half of the leaders and the president. Network changed job. Who’s in the 1st 2 years? Which is kind of interesting. I mean, I know we live in a society where people don’t tend to, you know, be the 30 years lifer at companies anymore. That world no longer exists. Then there is much more fluid ity. But what we saw with people after getting promoted into position within the community, where they might have been the vice president or an associate director at a non profit. They were then promoted to be the executive director of C E. O as an example, or they were hired to run a new, bigger organization. So we saw career changes. We also saw them joining boards and commissions. At one point, we tracked the number of different boards that leaders of the New Leadership Network and president had joined in. It was pretty astonishing, like they were all recruiting each other for different boards and commissions, and they were also starting to put their names forward to join public commissions being run by the city or the county government so that, you know, it’s almost like we created a leadership pipeline

[00:43:24.35] spk_2:

[00:43:25.12] spk_4:
the community by identifying these leaders, lifting them up, giving them skills. And then they got they started to be tapped by other people and other organizations in the community.

[00:43:35.90] spk_2:
Well, they trust each other. They know each

[00:44:11.13] spk_3:
other there. They’ve gotten beyond you know, as you said, beyond the superficial T know that these they they want to promote themselves and each other in the community. So you know that they’re proposing that they’re proposing each other for leadership is it’s gratifying. But based on everything you’re describing, it seems like it would be, it seems obvious that would happen. I know, you know. I’m not saying you should have predicted it just everything. The way you describe it and having read the book, it’s a beautiful outcome. Radio put it

[00:44:18.30] spk_2:
that way. All right, let me take this last break turn to communications. Did you ever wonder

[00:44:43.64] spk_3:
how some nonprofits always get mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them and their issues turned to can help you do that. Their former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy, build meaningful relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for social change is systems change.

[00:44:50.28] spk_2:
Let’s talk some about

[00:44:52.97] spk_3:
the, um, the community impact that you saw I love. I gotta shout out the one in Stanislavs there was a campaign. That shit is rigged.

[00:45:03.59] spk_2:
Ship is rigged campaign. You don’t start

[00:45:04.82] spk_3:
with that one, but I definitely want to flush it out. What did you see in the communities?

[00:45:09.35] spk_4:
Well, that one in particular was about getting more minority candidates to run for elected office

[00:45:14.31] spk_2:
because a

[00:45:14.67] spk_4:
lot of people of color who went through the network were frustrated that, you know, like many communities, I think President Stanislas has often been governed by people who sort of looked a certain way, came from a certain background.

[00:45:28.03] spk_3:
You know what

[00:45:28.45] spk_2:
I have been for eternity

[00:45:29.71] spk_4:
together in college

[00:45:30.85] spk_3:
white, middle aged man,

[00:45:52.72] spk_4:
mostly older, mostly boomer, mostly male, mostly white backgrounds. And so some of these people of color and Stanislas decided we need to start teaming up supporting one another to run for local elected office so we can have more diverse leadership that actually looks like the community. It looks like the demographics of the community. Look, just one example there are. There are hundreds of examples, and again we go into more detail in the book. But I’ll just pull out a couple of of my favorites and

[00:46:00.04] spk_2:
talk about

[00:47:37.50] spk_4:
the impact. One Partnership and Fresno, for example, started really working on early childhood development. There was a pre existing network in the community doing this work, but they started to come up with all kinds of creative ways to engage new participants in helping get low income kids ready for kindergarten. So they actually trained moms. They help moms in low income neighborhoods train other moms on preparing their Children for school, reading to them, helping them learn the alphabet, helping them get ready to start school. And just a couple of months, the program led 138 parent education workshop. That’s just one example. Another example in Stanislas was where police officers, um were, you know, historically the relationship between communities of color and law enforcement have not been so great. So, um, a team and Stanislas brought together through the Sheriff’s department brought together law enforcement officers with community members to talk about some of the challenges and problems around racial profiling. You know, shooting. You know, these shootings that are happening, black and brown boys and men of color and so on. And by having that dialogue, they really started to think about how they could change their training program for law enforcement officers and experiment with new ways of training them to be much more sensitive communities that they’re working in. And then one of their last example. I think that was great. In standard crosses, the county department launched an initiative to identify the 150 individuals who had the highest hospital, psychiatric and emergency room admissions. And again, we see

[00:47:41.39] spk_2:
this in

[00:47:41.65] spk_4:
every community where it’s often just a very small percentage of the population of homeless people were actually driving the most cost on the system

[00:47:51.80] spk_2:

[00:48:19.73] spk_4:
they’re cycling in and out of emergency rooms and medical care because of mental illness or substance abuse. So what? So they reached out to 10 of these individuals of the county department did and did interviews and really tried to understand their situation and used that input to actually think about design, a program that was actually much more responsive. I sort of got to root causes of working with these individuals, helping them connect to the support that they needed to address the underlying health issues and to get off the streets. So those are just a couple examples. Again, there’s many, many Maurine, the book and, you know, in President we saw 80 different projects and collaboration started by members of the network in just the first few years. So really fascinating how, when you bring them together, you empower them. You give them relationships and support and the common tool kit they can. And then you turn them loose on their community. They start doing really, incredibly innovative things.

[00:49:08.58] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s awesome. Uh, they’re uplifting to read, and you’re right. There are a lot more examples in the book. Let’s talk. We gotta balance the rest of our times, like seven minutes or so between challenges and opportunities going forward, so I don’t wanna spend too much on either one. So let’s start with some of the challenges like you talk about patients money. Let’s spend a couple of minutes talking about what you see some of the challenges going forward.

[00:49:50.80] spk_4:
Yeah, well, the problem itself has completed. So one of the challenges in our sector and I think anybody who works for a nonprofit out there will certainly identify with this. The Irvine Foundation changed their strategy. They had new leadership come in about five years ago, and they went through a whole strategic planning process. And they decided to focus on specifically targeting programs, dealing with income inequality and creating career pathways an opportunity for low income families. So this program no longer fit into their new strategy. They sunsetted it, the money ran out. So we’re no longer actively running the program. Although what I would say is that these networks have been embedded in the community and in Stanislas in particular, we partnered with the community Foundation is kind of the host of this work, and they’re continuing the work without Irvine funding. Without US leaders, it’s almost like we came in. We catalyzed it. But

[00:50:12.07] spk_2:

[00:51:02.84] spk_4:
work continues, the relationships continue, but I will say that for anybody seeking to replicate this in other communities. Having the funding to bring in professional facilitation, I think, really matters. Umm, having the ability to bring in a backbone organization or a host organization like the Stanislaus Community Foundation also really, really helps to embedded in the community. We were outside consultant living in the Bay Area. I mean, I was from Fresno, and you, the context really well and growing up, there are still a family there. I’m still an outsider. I’m still living in the berry, I don’t know the day in and day out. So having someone in the community who you know really, really embedded, I think helps, um, with that transition from the formal part of the program to kind of maintaining the momentum after the program ends. So those are just a couple of the things that we’ve seen Think for other communities looking at doing this, you know, definitely finding some funding, finding a host organization that combined maybe a neutral into be not trying to impose their own issue our agenda.

[00:51:16.56] spk_2:

[00:51:50.27] spk_4:
the platform for this work happen. And then I think also lastly, I think really critical to bring in equity limbs to this work we learned a lot of hard lessons about that. In Fresno, we had an all white training team. We weren’t really talking openly about racial dynamics power dynamics because, you know, this is hard stuff, and in Stanislas, we totally changed it up. We brought in a much more diverse team, and we really started intentionally bring conversations about race and power and equity into the room, because that’s really at the heart of a lot of where the system’s kidding stuck. So there would be some of the challenges for communities wanting to tackle things would be.

[00:52:12.04] spk_3:
The book is very clear about your very honest about the lessons you learned from Fresno to Stanislaus. Like you mentioned, having a backbone organization seems critical, etcetera. End the diversity of the the facilitators. Alright, so good. Thank you. That was concise. Thank you very much. Um,

[00:52:16.40] spk_2:
let’s let’s talk about some of the opportunities.

[00:52:21.99] spk_3:
I mean, you know, you when you mentioned those impacts, it seems like the opportunities air vast for for a community toe to take something like this on.

[00:53:58.82] spk_4:
Yeah, I do. I mean, look again. We had a little bit of the Irvine Grant left and we decided you know the best thing we could to for the, you know, the program itself. And President Stanislas isn’t going to continue, but but there’s no reason the work can’t continue. Right? So we took the remainder of the grant and used it to write up this workbook so that we could open source it and put it out there and encourage other communities to experiment with this, um, and try starting something like this on their own on the reason I say that is you know, I do think there’s a huge opportunity in this country right now. I mean it, You know, for anyone listening, is an activist running a non profit, you know, even working in philanthropy. This is a very hard time, right? We’re a difficult moment as a country with political polarization, rising income inequality. Um, you know, massive challenges around climate change around the opioid praises around systems like health care and education, that air just not performing as well as they should. So I think the positive the silver lining to all of the problems is these are also huge opportunities for people to get really creative. Stop doing business as usual. Stop doing what we’ve been doing in the past. It’s not working and start to really dig in and look at these problems and think about how we can collectively solve them. I mean, I think if I, you know, left your listeners with, you know, sort of a parting thought. You know, the way I think about this these days is there’s nobody coming to save us. We’re not gonna look to Washington to save us, right? Not have a thing with Washington’s pretty much tied up in a political impeachment trial at the moment.

[00:54:06.79] spk_2:
So what

[00:54:51.33] spk_4:
can we do in our communities to empower ourselves and to identify those people who are already cut out for community leadership, who perhaps have the emergent and nascent abilities? But they just haven’t been lifted up. They haven’t been lifted up within the community. They haven’t been able to connect to the other leaders that they really mean to be in solidarity with the tackle these problems. So yeah, so I think that’s my hope and my optimism is around the potential for this work in other communities and look different communities are already starting to lose it in very different ways. I know David Brooks had a convening of people working at the community level, you know, about a year ago in D. C or six months ago in Washington, D. C. And we’re seeing other communities that air coming up with innovative ways all in their own default these problems. So I think that’s where the hope is. I think we need to then identify these bright spots and start lifting them up so that we can all learn from these experiments. On the ground.

[00:55:07.74] spk_3:
Have the Macleod Grant, co founder of Open Impact. You’ll find them at open impact dot io. She’s at H M C Grant. You’ll get the, uh, the book ah free download Has Heather said at, um, New Leadership network dot or GE. I’m very sorry that Ah Dean couldn’t be with us. But Heather, thank you so much.

[00:55:27.82] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony.

[00:55:31.16] spk_3:
Thanks very much for sharing. We

[00:55:31.28] spk_2:
got late Breaking live Listener Love, Fukuoka, Japan Falls Church, Virginia, Burnaby, California Rahmbo Way, France. I apologize if that’s bad. San MATEO, California

[00:55:43.94] spk_3:
I know I said that right.

[00:55:45.29] spk_2:
Berlin, Germany. Good and dog, Germany to two inch Berlin. Good dog and young son,

[00:55:51.75] spk_3:
Korea on your house. Oh, comes a ham Nida,

[00:55:57.00] spk_2:
Thank you so much for joining us next week.

[00:56:04.02] spk_3:
Our innovators, Siri’s continues with the return of Peter Shankman on new road diversity. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:56:09.45] spk_2:
Responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the

[00:56:38.19] spk_3:
numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com What I just realized Peter Shankman is not on next week. He’s on two weeks from now. So, uh, next week is Alex counts. Sorry about that, Alex. Yes, Alex counts is next week. And then in two weeks of Peter Shankman, you know how to see how desperately I needed an intern to blame for this shit. That’s unbelievable. Unbelievable. Let’s start again with the sponsors. Bye wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:56:42.75] spk_2:
Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:56:44.46] spk_3:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial

[00:56:59.80] spk_2:
and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producer is Claire

[00:57:04.98] spk_1:
Meyerhoff. If she’s still willing to do the show after this. Oh my God, Sam Lee Woods is a line producer. He’ll probably still be around shows. Social Media’s By Susan Chavez I hope she stays. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. Help Male? He’s probably good, and this music is by Scott Stein licensed it. So he’s not going anywhere

[00:57:19.81] spk_2:
with me next week for non profit radio big non

[00:57:40.31] spk_1:
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[00:00:13.94] spk_1:
Hello and welcome

[00:01:22.90] spk_2:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. The Innovators. Siri’s continues this week, as last week was, our first continues this week. Now, every show is not gonna be an innovator. Show like next week will not be an innovator, but the innovators air peppered in on and the others are brilliant guests that have very smart ideas to share. Just not quite innovators. Okay, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our second show in the Innovators. Siri’s personalized philanthropy and live innovators are coming. I promise. It’s his three killer APS for fundraising that make Steve Myers an innovator, and he raised a lot of money using them with donors. He was first on the show several years ago, but his groundbreaking ideas remained largely outside the mainstream for no good reason that originally aired June 17th 2016 on tony Stake to planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cook, a Mountain software Denali fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is personalized Philanthropy

[00:01:49.24] spk_3:
I’m very pleased that Steve Myers is here in the studio for the hour. He is vice president of the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science and author of the book Personalized Philanthropy. Crash. The Fundraising Matrix. He’s a frequent and popular speaker, and he’s at Steven Myers. 863 S T e v E N N e Y E R s Welcome, Stephen Meyers. Welcome to the studio.

[00:02:17.49] spk_4:
I love tony.

[00:02:23.58] spk_3:
Glad to have you in person. I love it here. Glad you’re here. Um, let’s start with the basics with the title. What is this Matrix That you want people to crash?

[00:02:48.34] spk_4:
Yes, the book is called Crash The Fundraising Matrix. Because, um, it reflects what my experience was when I I I was in the process of writing the book when I realized all along that I’d been living in these two cultures that were completely unaware of each other and the Matrix. The movie The Matrix is the perfect metaphor for describing these two cultures. If you remember in the movie

[00:02:57.42] spk_3:
you have to describe, I didn’t see the movie

[00:03:07.71] spk_4:
in the movie. People were taken over by cybernetic implants, robots, machines that rebelled against humanity. And they existed only in, ah, like in a computer matrix. And everybody in the Matrix was really unaware of it. They just thought that everything was normal. They were living in their normal lives, and they didn’t realize that they were kind of being held prisoners, that they were enslaved in a sense. And that’s what the movie is about. When this one person that called Neo the one wakes up to the fact that he’s living in this synthetic artificial environment.

[00:03:35.22] spk_3:
You are You are our neo

[00:03:55.21] spk_4:
I am, and I’m standing in for all the fundraisers who are trying to wake up who feel the same sense of something’s just not right in my world is the fundraiser, and that was the experience that I had. Um, and I wanted to write the book to share that with people so they could wake up, help them to wake up and kind of escape the confines of the silos and the channels that they’ve been stuck in for so many years. Okay, sometimes without even realizing it.

[00:04:16.26] spk_3:
Okay. Uh, so you’re neo nickname Neo? Okay, Steve Neo Myers. Um, all right. Rob was deconstructing The titles are working away backwards. Now, what is the this model Personalized philanthropy

[00:05:26.24] spk_4:
Personalized philanthropy is is the antidote the opposite of what goes on in the Matrix? If you think about fundraising and philanthropy when it translates into the way that we work, it’s really like there’s two cultures. There’s an institutional focused culture which is focused almost entirely on trying to make campaign goals and reach objectives within the annual department or the major gift department. And the plan giving department. And even the small organizations tend to mimic these thes Silas and channels. My first experience was in really working and maybe a two man organization to people, and one of us was assigned this one channel and the other one of us was assigned to the other channel. And how ridiculous is that? It’s a counter intuitive. So the institutional focus is set off against this personalized focus, where instead of trying to service the campaign. You’re trying to serve the interests of donors. You meet the donor where they are instead of where the institution is. So you’re really talking about a whole new definition of what philanthropy is and what fundraising is. Four.

[00:05:55.34] spk_3:
We’ve been talking about donor centered fundraising for a dozen years or so Roughly, maybe, maybe more. Sure. I mean, I’ve been fundraising for 19 years. I don’t think we started out that long ago. But donor centric fundraising donor centered has been around for I’d say at least a dozen years or so. Why is how are you neo gonna gonna make this different and actually get us to where donor center is supposed to have been a CZ long as 12 or 15 years ago.

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
We’ve been talking about donor centered this and donor center that for a really long time, but we really haven’t had much to do about it. Um, when some people talk about donor centered fundraising, they’re talking about recognizing the donor or maybe finding a vehicle that they’re talking about selling a vehicle that they need to sell in order to make to bring that donor in so really donor centered fundraising and that’s really a copyrighted. It’s a trademarked. Yeah, Um, and it it really could have to do with how you thank them. How you write to them, how you called, cultivate them. But it doesn’t really have anything to do with what fundraising and philanthropy is about which, under my definition, the deafness that I’ve been working with is trying to mesh the compelling needs of interests off a donor with the compelling needs of the organization. So that changes. If you start with that definition where the donor’s needs matter, that’s the focus is on them. I really refer to this is donor focus giving rather than donor centered giving because the shift means that you’re focused on trying to understand the compelling interests in the passions of the donor and how they would connect to your organization. All right, that’s much different than the institutional focus

[00:07:33.14] spk_3:
on our hope. Personalized philanthropy is gonna is not gonna take this long to be really be realized, as as donor the donor centered trademark name. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. You’re the You’re the evangelist for for personalized philanthropy.

[00:07:37.75] spk_4:
I believe I am,

[00:08:04.99] spk_3:
I presume. Okay. Very good. We got the right person, and I mean you you brought the book. All right, Um, there’s let’s make sure now we just have a minute or so before break, but we got plenty time to talk. We’re you know, you’re here for the full hour. Let’s make sure that small and midsize shops know that they have. This is applicable to them. And they probably have advantages in trying to pivot to to be personalized philanthropists, philanthropies sent centers or shops, right?

[00:08:36.44] spk_4:
Yes. When I wrote the book, I was thinking of the person like me who was working in a small shop who had a background in annual giving and found themselves working in a major giving field. So for me, they were always connected. And I think that this is about empowering and enabling a person in a small shop to make a difference with every donor that they work with, not just the ones that there focused on for annual or planned or major giving. You meet the donor where they are. That’s the That’s the magic of this.

[00:08:43.74] spk_3:
Okay, excellent. All right. I want that reassurance. I’m very glad to hear it. And ah, Steve and I are gonna keep talking about personalized philanthropy. Stay with us.

[00:09:18.75] spk_2:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new C p A. A firm whose service is excellent, provides clear directions and timetables, is easy to work with and where you know, a partner That’s heat Coach Tomb has been a guest several times on the show. He’s gonna be coming back, and he will tell you whether Wagner can help you in 2020. So you start at wegner-C.P.As dot com and then pick up the phone and talk to eat. Now back to personalized philanthropy.

[00:09:29.78] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, um, you talk about in the book you mentioned a few times Transformation over transaction Flush that out from. Yeah,

[00:10:17.64] spk_4:
there’s two ways to think about fundraising the usual ways to think about the donor period and have a colleague who was written a book about the Donor Life Science Cycle Pyramid and the Pyramid. You’re thinking about transactions. You’re thinking about where a donor falls as a major donor at the top, in the middle or at the bottom. Transformational fundraising. You really thinking about time you’re thinking about loyalty? You’re thinking about relationships and they can take place over time. And the problem with with the pyramid style, the transactional, is that each transaction is separate and unrelated to all the others. What personalized philanthropy does is it creates a new model where all the transactions are connected to one another so that each gift can count in a way that would never count ordinarily. And it could explain. I can give you an example

[00:10:20.15] spk_3:
of examples stories. Just imagine.

[00:11:01.84] spk_4:
Imagine a rope. What end of the rope is the first gift and another end of the rope is the last gift. This is the chain of value in in in plan giving in and fundraising. And if you know all the all the value comes out at the end when the donor dies, implant giving it well, really. And if you think about the lifetime value of a donor, the big gifts come at the end. Yes. Okay. Ah, and you’re looking for bumps and major gifts and special gifts gifts. You make frequently gifts you make once in a while during a campaign and gifts you make once when you die. So what you have is you have a long rope with a lot of knots in it. What you’re gonna do and personalized philanthropy is you’re gonna move this rope around and you’re going to connect all of the knots. And that’s good means that all of these gifts are going to be connected with what another and they’re going to be united around, Ah, common purpose that the donor has an objective goal that not one gift could achieve. But all together, they can start to make a big difference during the donor’s lifetime. That’s a radical rethinking of how philanthropy works.

[00:11:26.88] spk_3:
Can we tie the two ends of the rope together and make a circle so that it’s it’s unending and non never breaks a

[00:11:34.59] spk_4:
circle? Or you could make a

[00:11:36.25] spk_3:
don’t make a new You don’t make the news.

[00:11:43.13] spk_4:
You make it. You’ll make a circle. You’re making really a tapestry like a like a Persian rug, each each. A lifetime of giving has a different design, and each donor kind of weaves their own tapestry of giving as they go through their life.

[00:12:01.54] spk_3:
Okay, I won’t force you to take the metaphor any further. We’re going to start making cat beds, and that’s not okay. Okay, um, Now, you you run at the Weizmann Institute, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. I’m I’m betting that it wasn’t called the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. When you first got there, you had to make some changes.

[00:12:26.42] spk_4:
I was the national director of plan giving that I was the national vice president for plan giving. And then ultimately, we decided to abandon the title of plan given, because

[00:12:28.02] spk_3:
sounds very solid. And may Trixie to me. Well, it was

[00:12:38.14] spk_4:
it was we came to realize that plan giving us Justus much asylum or channel has any of these other pains, and we weren’t working that way anymore. So we wanted to change that. Actually, what inspired the change from plan giving to personalized philanthropy was when my organization, the Weizmann Institute, decided to establish a center for personalized medicine. That’s a collaborative, multi disciplinary, interdisciplinary program where people are, um, um, collaborating in all kinds of new ways. And when I heard that phrase personalized medicine, You mean this medicine is designed for one person only. And it’s gonna work the first time

[00:13:11.97] spk_3:
in their DNA to select connected

[00:13:56.12] spk_4:
with that with their Deanna. Why, You know, that just was a wake up call for me that that’s what Philanthropy and fund raising Auto bay. All right, one of you kind of full spectrum. All the building blocks should be available to you. You bring them toe where the donor is, rather than trying to sell them something that you have you been instructed, really? Basically toe bring to them and ask them, Would you make a gift of X for this math, building, math and science building? And it doesn’t matter if the person cares about math or science. Maybe they were in the art department or they were a into literature or poetry. And why would they?

[00:14:15.44] spk_3:
Yeah, but we need based on our needs, space, the organization’s needs. But now you had to do some cultural and organizational change to create the the the Center for Personalized Philanthropy. What advice do you have for people who want to initiate this in their own organization? How do we start that conversation?

[00:14:31.62] spk_4:
I wouldn’t make a lot. I wouldn’t wait a lot for the organization to change its culture or its policies or procedures. Personalized plate. That is something that you could begin to think about when you kind of open up your your mind first realize that there is this matrix of Silas and channels that all of our fundraising basically is in. Right. And you want to try to find a way to connect your current giving in your future, giving around where your donors are at. And in order to do that you need like like an personalized medicine. They have technology. They have. They’re using technology in new ways. They have computational biology, so they could look at all this life science information in a systematic way. And this technology allows them to personalize medicine. So we have to have some tools that allow us to do this. And so I developed these things that I called killer APS. They are gift designs for bringing together current and future gifts that could be personalized and individually tailored to work with each donor.

[00:16:09.74] spk_3:
Yes, and we’re gonna get to the killer APs. But where were sporting neos throughout the throughout the world And there are in small, most of them listeners. There’s a small and midsize nonprofits, and they want to start a conversation about making a shift to personalize philanthropy from the Matrix that they are now burdened with right? I were want some tips. How did they start? But they’re going to sound like a lunatic the first time they go to their vice president or their CEO executive director, personalized philanthropy. And they have rope metaphors and not something you know how may be based on your own experience or, you know you’re coaching of others. How do we get this process started in our own currently matrix to shop?

[00:17:03.18] spk_4:
Well, as I said, the first thing you have to do is wake up to the fact that you’re working in a silo. Oh, and awareness awareness. And then you need to look outside of yourself outside of your silo. And, for instance, if you’re involved in playing giving, you know that one of the things that really makes that correlates with the plan gift is the donor who gives all the time. A donor who gives frequently tends to be the kind of person who wants to remember your organization in their estate plans. In fact, they may already have done that. So you would think, Wouldn’t it be amazing if we, without changing very much of this donor’s habit or pattern of giving. They could have a much greater impact today, instead of waiting until their death when they’re bequest comes in so kind of realizing that it’s possible Tiu have impact and recognition for a donor that begins right now.

[00:17:20.60] spk_3:
Okay, were so we’re gonna look to methods off current recognition and current value for both the organization and the and the donor, right, rather than long term. All right, All right, let’s start and and you have the killer APs before we get to the killer APS I think I’d like you just explain the spend rate because the Apsara largely dependent on an endowment spend rate, and there may very well be organization. I don’t even have an endowment yet, so let’s explain, spend rate.

[00:17:56.70] spk_4:
This personalized philanthropy works whether or not you have an endowment or not, Right. If you don’t have an endowment, you still need to have cash reserves, and you still need to be able to be financially sound. So that’s an objective that every organization has, even if they’re, ah, food bank or the kind of organization where they believe that they should not have an endowment. So

[00:18:05.04] spk_3:
there are a good number of them. There’s a

[00:19:09.34] spk_4:
lot of them out there, actually smaller ones, right? But the basic principle involved here is what I would call something like like this. It’s the grail of fundraising. The question that is not asked very often by donors to the organization is what’s the best gift that I could give you if I could give you anything that you wanted? Most organizations would ask for ID, like a gift of cash, and I like it right now. Thank you very much on and they would, and they would like to have it for general purposes. Um, but the question that they don’t know to ask is, Can we have a gift that will start working right away? Because we need to pay our bills. We have current deeds, and we also want to sustain ourselves for the future. So we need a gift that starts now and grows and scales up for the future. And most people in plain giving our only focus on the future. And most people in major and annual giving our only focus current president. So this grail of fundraising is the gift that really is the ultimate, the kind of gift that the organization needs the most but doesn’t even know how to ask for. OK, and that’s the kind of gift that we’re talking.

[00:19:17.70] spk_3:
All right, let’s define spend rate for people, and then we’ll get to your killer. APS spends Ben Drake

[00:19:21.72] spk_4:
please in an endowment on down when it’s usually thought to be the most important type of gift because a person makes a gift. And instead of being expended immediately, it goes into a bank account, an investment program, and each year a certain percentage of that fund is spent on the on the project or the program or the program, whatever that might be. And usually it’s like 5%.

[00:19:44.09] spk_3:
Yeah, I’ve seen between, like, three and 1/2 and five okay and used to

[00:19:50.64] spk_4:
used to be higher with the With Economy tanked a few years ago, I was spending rates began to to drop

[00:19:54.26] spk_3:
right because this is the amount that you’re spending from your endowment, and your endowment is supposed to be perpetual. So when investment returns or low spend rate spend, rates come down. This is typically decided by the board or maybe a committee of the board each year and Sometimes they look at the role of the average of the past three years returns. And that’s all financial stuff like

[00:20:15.68] spk_4:
if you What’s the idea?

[00:20:23.24] spk_3:
That, yeah, I’ve just wanna just feeling a little background, so to spend rate. So the spend rate changes from year to year. That’s the point. And typically you see same like three and 1/2 to 5. Or usually it’s

[00:20:46.84] spk_4:
around around 5%. And for the purpose of the conversation, it’s It’s pretty good. So that if someone makes $100,000 gift for an endowed scholarship and the scholarship is a proxy for whatever is something that’s really important to the donor into the school or the meshing, yes, then that $100,000 is going to produce, like, $5000

[00:20:50.38] spk_3:
each year we spend each year 5005% of endowment. Okay,

[00:20:54.90] spk_4:
so that’s how that’s how the spend rate works. And the goal of every fundraiser is to go out and get that endowment gift.

[00:21:00.65] spk_3:
All right, now we got the basics. Your first killer app is the virtual endowment. What is that? Well, that sounds very jargon e Virtually we have George in jail on tony-martignetti non profit radio. Okay, but I know you’re gonna get yourself out quickly.

[00:21:47.08] spk_4:
I’ll try. Well, you take that endowment that you just talked about the $100,000 that produces $5000 a year. You turned it upside down. This sounds like the veg. A Matic I didn’t. OK, he turned it upside down. It produces the donors, is giving you the $5000 a year every every year, say, for five years or 10 years. And that is going to be treated as if it were the product of an endowment that is yet to be created. So this donor has you in their will already say, for $100,000 they’re pretty comfortable giving you $5000 a year. They’ve been doing that without even being asked for him. It was maybe for general purpose.

[00:21:51.00] spk_3:
But they’re not comfortable giving you the $100,000 that’s right during their life, or at least at this point

[00:22:04.16] spk_4:
in their life. But their pattern of giving is such that an annual giver already and they care about the organization. So at the end of the rope, the end of the chain of living and giving is that $100,000? So why

[00:22:10.56] spk_3:
just come a little closer to the mic?

[00:22:14.46] spk_4:
Okay, thank you. So who is to say that getting that $5000 every year and then getting the $100,000 later where the program becomes self sustaining? Who’s to say that that’s not just a valuable as getting the $100,000 up front

[00:22:28.33] spk_3:
right? Okay,

[00:22:29.16] spk_4:
that’s a virtual endowment. And then with when the donor passes away, the virtual endowment essentially becomes a true and down

[00:22:53.82] spk_3:
okay. Or if they have a life event that changes their circumstances and they’re able to fund their endowment fully or maybe even half of some, you know, big Big bump while they’re living, that’s great. But in the meantime, they’re giving you what you would have spent from the endowment anyway. Brilliant. It’s very simple. Not too many organizations do this, though. I think

[00:22:56.53] spk_4:
it They don’t do that often because they’re focused on having a separate annual campaign, and they’re on to maintain that base of annual donors. And they have a whole maybe either they have a whole separate division of department and a department head who focuses on annual giving and another department that focuses on major giving it another one that focuses on plan giving. And they just they don’t connect up. And they have a lot of issues about who owns the donor and speak to the donor. So and what are you doing speaking to that donor there, Not a plan giving prospect,

[00:23:44.78] spk_3:
right? So if this this donor that you’re describing ah doesn’t meet the major gift level because here she can’t afford the $100,000 outright, then they’ll go to the Maybe they’ll drop to the or be shifted over to the annual giving team or something, but they won’t think of it as a virtual endowment. They’ll just think of it is we get $5000 a year from this person, but they’re not thinking longer term. And it’s usually when that annual fund silo

[00:24:03.46] spk_4:
in the Matrix that the preferred gift in the Matrix matrix general unrestricted gifts because we know how to spend your money better than you do right, and we need it to keep our operations go.

[00:24:12.49] spk_3:
So they’re not thinking about devoting it to a purpose that might later be endowed fully. That’s right. Later in the person’s life or at their data.

[00:24:18.83] spk_4:
And if if the purpose is central to the organization, if they had that endowment and they could do anything they wanted with it, they would most likely be funding those kind of programmes anyway.

[00:24:38.89] spk_3:
Yeah, okay. Okay. Killer APS. Okay, before we get to the killer APS ah, two and three just make clear why they’re called killer APS.

[00:25:08.44] spk_4:
They’re called killer APS because, like with any kind of technology, when new technology comes on, it just sort of wipes out everything that’s come before it thes when you employ the zaps and you work with them with donors, they achieve gifts that are so much greater. The donor you were talking about who was the $5000 donor now becomes a major donor because they’re giving $5000 a year and they have $100,000 on the books. So that could be, you know, a $200,000 down or even a much larger donor. It just changes the way you think about how you how you work. You really don’t want to go back to living in that silo Once you’ve been able to span plan major on annual giving through one of these per highly personalized gifts. They really work amazingly well.

[00:25:30.44] spk_3:
Excellent. Okay, we’re gonna take a little paws much more with Steve Myers coming up. We’re gonna talk about the philanthropic mortgage and step up GIF, ts and how your solicitations are gonna change.

[00:27:01.64] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software in the new year. Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. Meaning it’s built for you. For our community. Their customer service is excellent. So you know you’ve got backup if you need it. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take 24 Must have to start your plan giving in 2020. I hope that if you’re not already kicked off with plan giving, you’re not already deep into it. That 2020 is gonna be the year you get started. I have four things that I believe you need in place before you can get started there. Simple. But you gotta have some things lined up. Thio have ah decent chance of success of this at your inaugural planned giving program. And the first of these is you have to be at least five years old so that donors are confident that your organization will live beyond them. So I like to see at least those five years of history and for the other four must have for the other three must have of the four. Check out the video. It’s at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony Steak, too. Now, back to personalized philanthropy. Our second entry in the Innovators, Siri’s

[00:27:11.82] spk_3:
Steve Myers never went anywhere. Took a couple sips of water. Thank you for your indulgence. Let’s talk about another killer app. The philanthropic mortgage. What you got going on there? The idea of

[00:27:47.84] spk_4:
the philanthropic mortgage seems so intuitive, but it’s something that we would never be able to think about in a highly silent and channeled environment that they call the fundraising matrix. Yeah, philanthropic mortgage. When you when you buy a house, you don’t have to pay for it in full before you move into it. You’re not. You create a mortgage. This mortgage you are paying you’re making like one payment and the payment goes partly for interests, and the other part of it goes to build equity in your in your home bills Equity principle? Yeah, yeah, building, building

[00:27:50.63] spk_3:
prints and build equity. But basically,

[00:28:50.05] spk_4:
the idea here is that you’re it’s just same ideas wth e the virtual endowment. A person can make a gift of that spending rate for the for the scholarship that they’d like to have. And so the scholarship can start up right away and then in the virtual endemic, they’re going to make slight, sort of like a balloon payment at the end of their life. They’re gonna pay it off through their request. But in the idea of a philanthropic mortgage, you can pay more than just the quote unquote interest. You could also pay a little more than the spending rate. The operating annual cost of that on that little bit extra goes to creating and building equity in your endowment fund. Beautiful. So over years over time, you could build the equity in your fund and your program can begin right away. So if you’re talking about a scholarship or a professorial chair, you get to meet that incumbent. You get to get the letters from them. You get to go and play an active part and have a relationship with the organization of the people that

[00:28:57.32] spk_3:
you’re supporting. So going back to our hypothetical before maybe that donor is giving $10,000 a year or 7500 year. 5000 is the spend rate. And then the surplus goes to start building up that endowment, which will be fully funded at some balloon payment with some balloon payment in future. That’s exactly what all right, all

[00:29:37.91] spk_4:
right. There’s an even more interesting example that relates to this up to a donor who’s maybe a little bit older and they’re going to have to. And they have an IRA Ira now that that the permanent ah charitable rollover is in effect, right? We know that it’s gonna happen all the time. We want to wait to the end of the year, and guests wait to the last minute so we could make these gifts whenever we want to. So that means if you’re working with the donor who is going to be 70 and 1/2 in the next couple of years, they’re going to start taking money out on a regular basis

[00:29:42.18] spk_3:
right that required minimum distribution

[00:30:34.95] spk_4:
wired to do that. And let’s say that they don’t need it to live. Then that could become, ah, part of the, you know, both part of the virtual endowment, and it can also be part of the little extra that they might have. So working with a donor who for the first couple of years is just paying the spending right to create a post doctor old chair in computer science because he loves that. But towards the end of the schedule, he’s going to reach the age of 17 and 1/2. He’s going to get a huge for him, at least required minimum distribution. That’s going to be his balloon payment, right? So he’s gonna pay the regular amount. And then the last year, he’s gonna receive a much larger amount from his IRA. And he’s gonna add that complete his the endowment that he writes for the post doctoral fellowship in his parent’s names.

[00:31:09.30] spk_3:
I’d like to think of the IRA now, especially because of the rollover is well, it’s actually a qualified charitable distribution, but everybody knows there’s a roll over because that’s now permanent. We might start to see, You know, Ira’s sort of become I have many foundation You can do your charitable giving through your i. R a. Have a count toward this required minimum distribution, which for a lot of people, is more than they want or need. And then you’re not You’re not text on it. You avoid the federal income tax on that, that distribution or that gift to, ah, the charity.

[00:31:22.88] spk_4:
So that only doesn’t have a value as a transaction. Because each time, as you pointed out, you don’t have to pay tax on the money that you’re giving away. You’ll never taxed on it. Essentially, you can use it strategically to grow your on pay the spending rate and the operating costs for your program. So we’re gonna begin right away,

[00:31:35.82] spk_3:
transformational and transactions. What? It’s okay. We agree. It’s not a hostile environment. You think you’re walking into a hostile environment? Yeah. Okay. Um, your final killer app is, uh, step up gift sort of a hybrid. Talk about talk about to step up.

[00:33:27.82] spk_4:
It’s a hybrid that person might be able to Ah, um this is one of those gifts that people wouldn’t think about because they would think that I could never have a professorial chair, at least not during my lifetime, because the professorial chair cost of 1,000,000 or $2 million that’s gonna be more than likely that will be in my estate. But I can’t really find a way to access that money now, however I can. I do have that $5000 that I’ve been giving every year for general purposes, and I could continue to do that for a number of years so I could start off by funding that scholarship we talked about earlier, that $100,000 scholarship that cost $5000 a year. So during my lifetime with Simon older donor, I could have that masters or other scholarship that could begin right now and then upon my death, um, the funds from my estate bequest for my estate could step up that endowment to the 1,000,000 or $2 million level. So basically my gift would step up from a master scholarship or a doctoral scholarship or a postdoctoral scholar ship all the way up to a professorial chair through my estate. Okay. And my plan would be put together so that the totality of my plane would be understood by both myself and by the charity that I’m working with from the very beginnings, right? This is a comprehensive that truly is a transformational give. It transforms from an annual gift to a major scholarship gift and to really a very substantial estate gift in there, all tied together around the same purpose, even though there are separate gifts that function for different purposes along the way. And then ultimately they all go for the same purpose.

[00:33:42.99] spk_3:
How do the killer APS and the smashing of the Matrix and the creation of a personalized philanthropy? How do these all come together to change our solicitations?

[00:35:39.14] spk_4:
That’s really a good question. I think it changes the way. First of all, it it changes the way that you think If you go back to the back to the movie The Matrix, when people see The Matrix, they sort of acquire these magical powers that could kind of see around corners and they can fly. They can defy the laws of physics because they understand the world in a in a way that was different in the way they understood it before. So if you are uh, if your practice becomes one of personalized philanthropy, you’re kind of working as an enlightened generalised. You have all the gifts, all the building blocks of philanthropy that you can bring to bear on each person wherever they are, and that’s going to change the nature of your work. You’re going to be basically sitting on the same side of the table as the donor, really an ally, ah, force to help them achieve what they want to and realize what’s what’s possible that they never would have thought was possible before by connecting all these small, modest gifts that they could make during their lifetime with the larger gifts that they could make through their estate, essentially changing the whole value change so the value can come out when they want it to come out and achieve that impact and begin to change society now. So that means that instead of just kind of being a hit and run kind of fundraiser like the annual fund people come in, I’d like to get the same thing I got last year, maybe a little bit more, and then move on to something else. Instead, you’re connected with the stoner through time. You’re not just looking at them at a point on the donor pyramid, you’re looking at their whole lifetime value as a donor and that that changes everything. The changes, the process for developing a personalized gift is much different. Thin. The solicitation of a typical asked for a regular

[00:35:59.12] spk_3:
Don’t you’re so stations. There’s gonna be more questioning and what’s important to you and what what brings you joy around the work that we do and right and more of a process than a discreet sit down. And the loser is the one who talks first after the ask is made. And then in four days there’s a follow up phone call. What are your thoughts about what we pitched very different.

[00:36:12.97] spk_4:
It’s it’s really completely, utterly.

[00:36:13.97] spk_3:
So what are some of the things that you ask about in your solicitation meetings? Well, it’s not

[00:36:25.93] spk_4:
that I ask any pursuit different questions than other fundraisers would. Just when I’m when I’m my thinking is different. I’m listening. I’m listening in a different way. And, uh

[00:36:30.34] spk_3:
So what are you doing? Let us into that neo brain. Okay, Well, what are you doing? What I’m trying

[00:37:25.54] spk_4:
to do is, I’m trying to discover what what matters to them and what I have that other fundraisers don’t have is that I have these killer APs that can connect to where the donor is so that if a donor has a habit of giving annually, I couldn’t begin to think about how might they have a greater impact by connecting all those gifts that they’re doing? If they gave for the last 10 years, $5000 a year? Chances are pretty good that they won’t be offended if we talk about. If you continue your pattern of giving, you could have a whole different kind of impact than you. Then you were having beef here, so it’s It’s a different, different tools and technology that I could use. I don’t have to sell them the math building when there are really more interested in the arts and music program. I could start with where with where they with where they’re at. Okay, so that that makes all the difference,

[00:37:32.33] spk_3:
right? Thanks for letting us into that head. We wanna when I want to be there, explicitly, even though we’re there for the hour. But it’s

[00:37:53.00] spk_4:
a good head to Bay because you you’re not just talking about donor centric donor focused giving. When you get this information, you can use it so that if a donor is ah, if they may already have included you in their estate plans, thanks a lot of donors they will that will do that without even being asked. That’s that’s where they begin. So you know that there’s going to be endowment. Possible atT. The end. Now you could begin to talk with them about connecting the current giving so that the impact of that future gift can start. Now.

[00:38:09.42] spk_3:
We have just about two minutes before break, and in those couple minutes I want you to flush out something. You talk in the book about the four Children from the Passover Seder? Yeah, just a couple minutes. How do they figure into this? The four Children who are they and what’s in there

[00:38:24.21] spk_4:
in the past, over in the past, over service. If this is part of the service that gets recited every year, so people know these names that might be familiar with him, so you could

[00:38:32.26] spk_3:
well, they think that we’re going to Passover seders. I’ve only been to one in my life, and I don’t remember the four Children.

[00:39:36.73] spk_4:
So the four Children, the Seder, are the wise, the wicked, the simple and the one who doesn’t know how to ask. So just imagine that these people have grown up and become donors and each one of them in the past, over service. The idea is to try to reach each individual, each type of Children of child where they are, um, and begin with what they are, who they are at, relate to them as individuals. Ah, and then you build out, you build out from that. So the four Children who begin to think about them as donors, you begin to focus on ah, where they’re at. If they’re wise, they might give it. That might be the kind of person who gives every year without being asked if they’re wicked. They might, uh, wicked is not. Ah, it’s not a bad term. In this case, it’s a kind of a positive thing because the person would be discerning very smart. They might have an interest in taking care of their loved ones as well. The donor, who is simple, just might begin with a bequest because as the seeds were planted before them. They will continue to plant the seeds for the future. And the donor who doesn’t have to know how to ask, is the one who has a charitable inclination but doesn’t know how to scratch that itch. So they’re the most fun to work with the ball.

[00:39:55.88] spk_3:
Beautiful. That’s great story. I kind of wish we’d ended with that, but we’re not anything but we’ll have a good ending anyway. Let’s go out for a break when we come back. Stephen, I’m gonna keep talking, talking a little about counting all these new gifts that you’re gonna be getting. Stay with us

[00:40:39.51] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation, you’ve got the best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and other media, and that’s how you get great coverage when it matters. Because you’ve got existing relationships. There are turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for personalized philanthropy.

[00:40:59.41] spk_3:
Okay, Steve Myers, we’re gonna have lots of new gifts coming in, and you’re pretty. You’re pretty generous about counting. You don’t seem very generous. Don’t say that in the book, but it’s between between the lines you want. You want to give as much credit as possible? Not Not surprising. Really? Um, yes. Yes, you do. Um, let’s talk about, say, I’m gonna hash. We break this down So we look at the killer APS and how they would be counted or what? You’re what? You’re counting philosophy. Generally. Let’s start there.

[00:41:11.01] spk_4:
Okay. Uh, the prime directive for me in counting is don’t just count one number.

[00:41:18.61] spk_3:
Yes. You said that explicitly. The book? Yeah.

[00:41:32.18] spk_4:
Everything in our lives. It’s the sort of damage, please. Hanging over the head of every fund raiser, its financial resource development. And, um, how much did you raise? You have to How much did you raise? What did you raise? And if

[00:41:35.53] spk_2:
you don’t have

[00:42:56.62] spk_4:
an answer for that, someone else will. It’ll be a new accounting formula financial formula that tells what the present value is of all the gifts that came in. And of course, the president value doesn’t include bequests or request expect expectancies. It doesn’t include the kind of cultivation in the activities that you d’oh. It reduces everything that comes out of the system that doesn’t not have a present value. Yeah, and as fundraisers know, there’s a lot of things that we do that that would be considered his fundraising achievements that normally don’t count. So we wanna have a way of describing what it is that we do that goes along with how we feel about what fundraising achievement actually is. So when I say don’t count just one number, what we’re really saying is there is one number that you have to be aware of it. Everybody has to know that. But there’s a complement of that one number, and it’s a multi dimensional set of numbers that can help us to measure our own effectiveness and convey to the people that we are working with and for what all this fundraising has been about. And really, there are three kinds of gifts that we we like to count outright gifts that count 100% gifts that there would be like Category one gifts,

[00:42:58.32] spk_3:
cash and cash equivalents. Call those the category one cash

[00:43:04.90] spk_4:
cash equivalents that would include pledges that air like payable over a couple of years.

[00:43:06.84] spk_3:
Legally binding. I get legally binding pledge.

[00:43:51.20] spk_4:
It’s legally binding. Pledge is okay, and legally binding pledges could include pledges that are payable over 12 or three years but also pledges for older donors that are going to be considered as bookable or irrevocable from their estates. That’s another type of ah, gift that would count in this cash or cash equivalents. The second category is the irrevocable gifts that we we raised the charitable remainder trust and gift annuities and part of the value of them would count in that one number, and the rest of the wood would not count until they were later received. And the third category is revocable gifts or or bequests that are expected but that have not yet been received.

[00:43:54.38] spk_3:
And they’re not legally binding.

[00:43:55.79] spk_4:
And they’re not. And they’re not legally because

[00:43:57.51] spk_3:
there are ways of making a bequest legally binding. If the person signed a contract to buying their estate, um, testamentary contract. Okay, so

[00:44:14.13] spk_4:
this, uh, this journey towards personalized philanthropy really began for me with this question of what am I doing here? What?

[00:44:14.85] spk_3:
I just asked that question about 1/2 an hour. Just asked. That’s a

[00:44:40.24] spk_4:
really good question. You should always be asking, What am I doing here? And if you’re on task, you’re doing something that relates to one of those kinds of gifts. You’re cultivating a donor for a future gift your culture. Get cultivating them for a gift that can provide income to them now and a gift to you later. And you’re also cultivating the firm, a gift that they could make now and that you can have now that could be both cash or it can be assets other other than cash. And that’s how you would evaluate what you’re doing in kind of a multi disciplinary way.

[00:44:49.22] spk_1:
How do you

[00:44:57.49] spk_3:
like toe? Give credit to fundraisers for activities that aren’t quantifiable, you know, advancements in a relationship. But the person didn’t increase their giving this year or pledged to in the future. You know all those activities that meaningful but non quantifiable,

[00:45:09.68] spk_4:
right? Yeah. You want to

[00:45:10.65] spk_3:
How do we help fundraisers be recognised? Well,

[00:45:42.77] spk_4:
you know, we develop metrics out of these out of these out of activities, and you try to figure out the ones that are going to be important for you, and you embrace the ones that are important for you now sometimes, um, people go way overboard on this. There was one fundraiser that I know who travels around a lot to meet with donors. And his supervisor wanted to him to quantify, um, how much, um, money per per mile he was raising. He said, Oh, no, no,

[00:45:46.45] spk_3:
I won’t do that on.

[00:45:48.10] spk_4:
He was senior enough that he was able to avoid that in another system. They wanted to know. What is this fundraiser doing? Every 15 minutes? It’s almost

[00:45:56.80] spk_3:
Oh, my God, It’s like law firms.

[00:45:57.84] spk_4:
Like a lot

[00:46:11.12] spk_3:
of booking for way. I used to book a six minute increments. All right, we just have about a minute, lad. We don’t want to do right. We do that. That’s not to do we have about a minute left? Leave us with some things that we should be measuring to give credit to fundraisers. Some examples of what you measure you like to measure

[00:46:39.89] spk_4:
well, when you, when you do these blended gifts with blended gifts come from a combination of current and future gifts. So you want to measure the gifts, all of their dimensionality, so that you could compare them to the single present value along with all the value that they’re going to bring to the organization beginning right now. So if you’re going back to the person that we were speaking of before, go

[00:46:40.25] spk_3:
ahead, you have to wrap it up.

[00:46:41.22] spk_4:
Okay, Well, uh, their gift is gonna have an immediate impact, and it’s gonna grow and scale up over time. And that’s what you want to try to achieve that, That that’s the grail of fundraising.

[00:47:12.14] spk_3:
And that’s if you want to track yet. Okay, we have to leave it there. Steve Myers, vice president, the Center for Personalized Philanthropy at the American Committee for the Weizmann Institute of Science. You’ll find him on Twitter at Steven Myers. 863 The book. Get the book. It’s personalized. Philanthropy crashed the fundraising metrics. It’s at Amazon, and it’s also a charity channel, which is the publisher

[00:47:59.44] spk_2:
next week. Our innovators, Siri’s continues with leading systems change. What did I say earlier in the show that next week would not be innovators? Siri’s? That was a mistake that definitely is the innovative Siri’s third entry, and it’ll be alive. Finally, live innovators. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com It’s still occurs to me. I need an intern to blame for these mistakes. It’s it’s unbelievable. By Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? So if you know anybody who wants to be a blamed in turn in the future, resume to tony at 20 martignetti dot com and also by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Our creative producer is

[00:49:04.47] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lieber, which is the line producer thief shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Great voice just cracked talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, Huh?

Nonprofit Radio for January 10, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)




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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Happy New Year. I

[00:01:14.54] spk_2:
hope you enjoyed enormous amounts of time and good fun with family and friends. Lots of time off during the holidays. I hope you enjoyed the hell out of them. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize. A phobia if you missed our first show in the innovators Siris de colonizing wealth You can’t always kick off a series with a live guest. Edgard Villanueva’s book De Colonizing Wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy that originally aired November 30th 2018 on Tony’s Take two planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is our first guest in The Innovators, Siri’s Edgar Villanueva.

[00:01:46.97] spk_1:
That’s my great

[00:01:47.77] spk_3:
pleasure to welcome to the studio. Edgar Villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of Native Americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andress Family Fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable

[00:02:04.64] spk_1:
youth. He’s an instructor

[00:02:15.34] spk_3:
with the grantmaking School at Grand Valley State University and served as vice president of programs and advocacy at the Shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s

[00:02:15.51] spk_1:
held leadership roles at Kate Be. Reynolds Charitable Trust in North Carolina and Marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle.

[00:02:26.38] spk_3:
Edgar is an enrolled member of the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and

[00:02:33.05] spk_1:
at Villanueva Edgar and welcome to Studio.

[00:02:34.17] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:35.68] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month. Was October October 16th. Yes, all right.

[00:02:42.22] spk_3:
And you just had a very nice interview with The New York Times. Yes. Congratulations. On that day, that’s prep, prep, prep you for non profit radio,

[00:02:49.46] spk_4:
right? Right. I’m ready.

[00:02:50.80] spk_1:
All your all your media appearances

[00:02:52.77] spk_3:
to date have brought you to this moment, right? So that it’s all culminated here.

[00:02:57.61] spk_5:

[00:02:58.74] spk_1:
I promised listeners. Footnote one

[00:03:31.05] spk_3:
Footnote 12 Aah! Hyper Garg, Alice, the Asia. Of course, anybody listens to show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease, every single show. But in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle issue Asia. So this is the first time over 400 shows that thea that the guest unknowingly has ah, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do. That every single show. Um, you don’t know that

[00:03:32.16] spk_4:
I didn’t.

[00:03:32.55] spk_3:
Not listening to non profit radio. It’s It’s

[00:03:45.58] spk_1:
your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re You’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. No

[00:03:45.68] spk_4:
one told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way,

[00:03:52.61] spk_1:
but that’s not

[00:04:00.05] spk_3:
all so bad. Getting closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate. with it. Um, I

[00:04:00.14] spk_1:
used to call myself the Charlie

[00:04:06.38] spk_3:
Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer. Um,

[00:04:08.83] spk_1:
because you talk about, ah,

[00:04:16.90] spk_3:
colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like, those are bad things.

[00:04:18.64] spk_4:
Yes, they are. Bad thing.

[00:04:20.19] spk_3:
Okay. What? Ah, what is that? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:26.84] spk_1:
so many of

[00:04:41.75] spk_4:
us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? Um, you know, I have this firewall that were completely disconnected from Wall Street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for that, the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways, not in

[00:05:01.97] spk_3:
the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:05.18] spk_4:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated? Um, you know, especially I’m from the South, North Carolina. We’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was a legacy of slavery and stolen lands that that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:34.94] spk_3:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native Americans.

[00:05:40.29] spk_1:

[00:05:47.79] spk_4:
So, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in North Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparent’s generation, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still what We’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are arias, resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to soft today. As a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:34.10] spk_3:
You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Um, now you’re a member of the Lumbee tribe. North Carolina. That’s right. Robertson County, North Carolina. Which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west, I think of of Robertson County lumber. So the Lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the love bees and lumber turn the town. That’s right. Name for Lum bees,

[00:07:06.91] spk_4:
Right. So lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first, and so

[00:07:12.25] spk_1:
certainly the river came from. The name of the river came, right, Right. River’s been

[00:07:22.29] spk_4:
there much longer. Okay? Yes. So we’re, you know, hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal North Carolina that I came together to form the Lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:42.04] spk_3:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to ah, Native Americans as the as the original philanthropist, but that struck me a lot. I think. You You say you say that the end of the at the end of books, right where I caught it. Um, we have, like, a minute 1/2 or so before a break. So just we’re introducing this. We got playing time together. Wealth, you say, divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:07:53.94] spk_4:
So the accumulation of wealth so money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, I say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed on the acts that could result as as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what? That’s what has calls the Harmon itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done.

[00:08:36.03] spk_3:
You’ve got 7/16 steps to that. The second half of your book. All right, We’ll take our first break.

[00:09:08.03] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new c p A. A firm whose service is excellent, who provides clear direction and timetables and is easy to work with. And you know where you know a partner There, There where? You know, a partner you touch to talk to him. He’ll tell you honestly whether they can help you in the new year. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to de colonizing wealth.

[00:09:17.69] spk_3:
Now back to Naghani Onishi! That is your Indian name. Did I by any chance, say that correctly?

[00:09:20.61] spk_4:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my Ojibwe these days.

[00:09:33.91] spk_1:
You don’t know your boy That sounds that is your Indian name. Yes. Uh, leading bird. Tell the story of how

[00:09:34.78] spk_3:
you got that name. We’ll come back to you. Don’t. I will come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t think this is a good story. How you got that name?

[00:11:01.71] spk_4:
So my tribe, the Lumbee Tribal North Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? That’s right. So But when I when I was working in North Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in North Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh, North Carolina. And so But I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and Thio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, If you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um And so I met with this guy in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado, where this this Native Health Conference. So it was all, ah, tell the story in the book is quite, um, hilarious and in many ways let the Indian of our session where I was feeling excited about, you know, the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I, you know, had such colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native named Johnny Benesch A which means leading bird. So I was very honored. And my first thought was, What kind of bird, right? Am I a little Tweety bird or in my mighty eagle Republicans? Right. Birds are vest. So, um, he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V formation. Um, And as I when I left, I studied of these birds and they’re

[00:11:22.06] spk_3:
the leading bird I’m deleting. There is leading Berg.

[00:12:02.84] spk_4:
I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when I when I learned these characteristics, I just felt really I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life. And I think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:19.17] spk_3:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered. They’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other. But they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they say, I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they could be injured, right?

[00:12:41.69] spk_4:
It’s there. It’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, GPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more, but I think when they’re when someone is down are you know there’s an injury or whatever may happen? They there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our Inter related, you know, being inter related

[00:13:19.31] spk_3:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is this is an indigenous belief that we are all related. And that’s what it makes me think of the birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other?

[00:13:35.43] spk_4:
Yes. Oh, there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, ah, you know, we are We are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset, or world view from sort of the American individualistic type of mindset. Um, we also have connected to that viewpoint is on this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things all of the decisions and that we’re making today are gonna impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family. But also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work.

[00:14:47.45] spk_3:
And you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility. For as you said, we’re thriving and suffering together. Um, what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:15:03.48] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think

[00:15:04.78] spk_3:
Are we all responsible?

[00:15:18.54] spk_4:
We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks we, you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes,

[00:15:22.47] spk_3:
like the natural path of progress. Absolutely Way. It’s learned,

[00:15:59.68] spk_4:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher Columbus, for example. And so but the realities are that colonization, um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we as as the people have not come to terms with we. Actually, we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. S o the dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, I refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies. As as a nation, they show up in our policies are systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power,

[00:16:27.93] spk_3:
least naturally, to your point about us, them organizations

[00:17:12.06] spk_4:
Absolutely. So you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate you know, the dynamics of colonization. Because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. Ah, would you look at, um asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety net and vulnerable communities on when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend. Did you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening? Because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundations said on $800 billion of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, healthcare, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the RS Thio payout 5% of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on Lee, a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community

[00:18:18.61] spk_3:
Let’s assume it’s I know there are a lot of foundations that use that 5% minimum as their maximum, so that 05% of that would be $40 billion. So the counter is bad, but there’s $40 billion coming each year. Could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And, you know, we’re trying to preserve this, uh, this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were tryingto no, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say

[00:18:29.13] spk_4:
right, right? And,

[00:18:30.24] spk_1:
you know, I

[00:19:43.06] spk_4:
think that I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5% when Congress had acted that 5% rule, um, it actually began at 6% I believe in 1974 and then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy, the wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break. And so that that, uh, I rs minimum payout of 5% That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants. And so you know, So it is sort of, ah, the other thing to explore if you are with a 95% that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and instructed extractive industries that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation.

[00:20:14.59] spk_3:
Yes, you make the point often, uh, that often right, those investments are in our in industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission, and in fact, funding. Um, the, uh there’s something else that there’s your estimate, Thea. The way the money is. All right. Well, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s

[00:20:14.96] spk_1:
there’s a lot

[00:20:31.41] spk_3:
that organizations congee gained by hiring people of color. Indigenous people. What? Ah, and very few. Your rare exception. Um, working in found eight doing foundation work. What’s the make explicit? Those, uh, those advantages.

[00:20:57.22] spk_4:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely, um, exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 Native Americans that I could find. We kind of found each other. What year was that? This was in 2005. That’s along. And we are now. Ah, there’s about 25 of us now. The last time I counted. So

[00:20:57.65] spk_1:

[00:20:57.85] spk_4:
there’s there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations. And I think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:10.23] spk_1:
and not only

[00:21:10.59] spk_3:
foundations but non profits. NGOs doing the groundwork, absolutely foundations of the funders on Dove course. Some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but But for the nonprofits doing the day to day work A CZ well represent the communities that you’re

[00:21:25.93] spk_4:
absolutely. It kind of makes sense right and felt, You know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staffs. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit our foundation, too tohave folks that work there, who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, um, you know about the problem in a different way is gonna create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies that that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes on board meetings where decisions were being made and always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room. And I hear these decisions are these conversations, and I’m thinking like, Oh, my God, like you know, this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother mar my family that’s still living in poverty. Decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah,

[00:22:58.01] spk_3:
yeah. Um, and ah, I I thought of what I was gonna ask you about. Just comment on the foundation wise, we do see some foundation saying that they’re gonna spend down their assets. Um, I wouldn’t say it’s, ah, needle moving. But you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. Um, was Paul Allen was it? Ah, not pull out the Microsoft. Uh, I think the Microsoft founder co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was Paul Allen. Okay, um, I was thinking of Steve Allen to come. You’ll come. That’s why I thought No, it wasn’t him, but was Paul Allen. I think his foundation’s one, But

[00:23:17.21] spk_1:
there are some. So we do

[00:23:20.24] spk_3:
hear some glimmers. Ah, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle.

[00:23:24.27] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I mean, I think deciding to spend down is ah is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now if we actually release the funds or

[00:23:34.56] spk_1:
even if

[00:24:22.80] spk_4:
you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um, there there’s a lot of amazing work happening. Um, right now that is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh, the 5% that is being invested only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so I think, you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards the foundation should think about. What is the value of you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like, what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways, it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of, you know, um, way of thinking.

[00:24:36.81] spk_3:
If this was CNN right now, I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times have to work on that. A talking alternative we need. We need video capture and screens and everything in your video in your interview with David Bernstein, New York Times. Uh, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color, philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:24:54.05] spk_1:

[00:25:49.89] spk_4:
You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail. Um, we hurt the hardest. And, uh, but there’s just something so magical about him. And since a private I have about my community because we’re so resilient, like, regardless of, um, you know, all of the trauma of the colonization the, um, you know, genocide, stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. And so there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would if I weren’t native. I will be interested to know, Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the front lines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom. And you know often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, are see strategies. Or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up. And I’m like, Wow, we’ve been doing that are in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:08.00] spk_3:
Is there still a Lumbee community in Robson Robson County?

[00:26:11.69] spk_4:
Yes, there are. There are about 60,000 enroll members and a Lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County.

[00:26:23.86] spk_3:
Okay, Now have in North Carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in. Can I be in a number?

[00:26:25.25] spk_4:
You know, we were very inclusive. We we’ll take will adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. T officially enrolled.

[00:26:34.75] spk_1:
That’s a stretch

[00:26:35.59] spk_3:
for an Italian American with North Carolina license plate on driver’s license. All right, um,

[00:26:42.91] spk_1:
you Ah, you talk about,

[00:27:23.48] spk_3:
um you know, I guess. I mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out. Ah, you know, piecemeal. Um, the the imbalance. You know, the grant, even the even the word, you know, the granting right. It’s like some, uh, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When, uh, your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s It’s it’s a It’s a right equally held by all.

[00:27:27.54] spk_4:
Yet, you know, I think power and money a lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right and equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from lens of equality. So we’re gonna have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat.

[00:28:02.24] spk_3:
So that’s not gonna happen,

[00:28:03.24] spk_1:
you know, that’s that’s highly unlikely.

[00:28:06.11] spk_3:
Like infant is really small. Unlikely.

[00:28:15.58] spk_4:
You know, it’s a hard thing for people thio to think about it, especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I’m I have less than I’ve had So, um, but, you know, we II want to think about this abundance mind frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging. There’s who have not been privileged by that.

[00:28:41.80] spk_3:
So I love that you. You approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break.

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software

[00:28:45.74] spk_1:
in the new

[00:30:19.28] spk_2:
year Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. It’s built for you. Their customer service is excellent, so they’ll take care of you and they have a free 60 day trial. You get that on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin. Now, time for Tony’s Take two four must have to start your planned giving in 2020 um, the video at tony-martignetti dot com has four things that you need to have in place for you to kick off. Planned giving in 2020. I’ll be more than happy to give you one right here and then for the video for the other three. You got to go to the video. Um, you have to be at least five years old. People have to be confident that your organization is going to live longer than them because they’re gonna be including you in their estate plan. Most likely there will. And they need to know that you’re gonna survive them so that there could be a gift for your organization when they die. So in order to have that confidence or for your donors to feel that confidence about your longevity, I like to see at least five years of history in the organization and for the other three, Um, check the video, and that is at tony-martignetti. Dotcom four must have to start your plan giving in 2020. That is Tony’s Take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Our first entry in the innovators. Siri’s.

[00:30:25.90] spk_3:
Now I wanna go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar Villanueva.

[00:30:30.47] spk_1:
See, I thought

[00:30:31.29] spk_3:
he would pronounce his name. Edgar and I was wrong. And But that’s that’s why I said Edgar.

[00:30:38.00] spk_1:
But it’s Edgar Edgar Edgar Villanueva and de colonizing

[00:30:40.03] spk_3:
wealth. Welcome back, you two go for

[00:30:42.08] spk_4:
Thanks for having me. Okay?

[00:30:43.29] spk_1:
Just will be here. Yes. Yeah. You haven’t done anything that

[00:30:46.79] spk_3:
would lead me to shut your mic off. Um, it hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened.

[00:30:51.74] spk_1:
So let’s let’s start getting ah positive, Okay.

[00:31:03.37] spk_3:
You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, and, uh, I thought you came up, like five short. I mean that we have only 12 status if

[00:31:08.21] spk_1:
you want to. If you want to share power, you’re gonna have to

[00:31:16.07] spk_3:
have you got to step it up with 12 steps or or even 15. You have more than the colonizer, but but

[00:31:16.83] spk_1:
the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical.

[00:31:30.80] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s Ah, there’s ah, quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on

[00:31:35.14] spk_3:
is a prime number. Got that event right? That’s that’s I don’t know why.

[00:31:40.12] spk_4:
So, you know, But I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no ah, linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:32:04.50] spk_3:
lets them out for us. Just list all seven and then we’ll talk about

[00:32:07.26] spk_4:
I’m sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair.

[00:32:15.64] spk_5:
Okay. Um,

[00:32:16.61] spk_1:
so you’ve been thinking

[00:32:17.17] spk_3:
about this for a while in this? Uh, I just did. I admire the I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:32:51.25] spk_4:
Yes. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to, uh, just re ground myself in my values and, um and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and in philanthropy, who were, I think of very four thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country in to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this? Um And then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is, ah, method that’s used in schools. And I’m in the criminal justice system to help people deal with with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ah, model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:33:56.08] spk_3:
I saw ah grieving Ah, you say everybody I mean, because of our inter relatedness, where we all need to grieve, including people of color indigenous, those who have been oppressed.

[00:34:48.73] spk_4:
Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm in the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people? And, you know, I think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that Ah, that colonization and the idea of white supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s, ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book, um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being American. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and it feel connected to that in some way.

[00:35:21.33] spk_3:
Um and, um, the ah, the thing you talk about two is, uh, the orphans orphans. You say that? Ah, those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans? How’s that?

[00:36:55.80] spk_4:
I call them orphans. This is a term Moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from, given up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe thio this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that, there’s been a lost of sort of that that mother country for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know I’m not anti American, let me be very clear about that This is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud, TB, a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, um, you know, and and and not, um, that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your green appearance or from, or the language. They spoke with the culture they have. Um, and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities, that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. And if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You

[00:36:56.09] spk_1:
said a few

[00:36:56.41] spk_3:
minutes ago that white supremacy is not a riel. Not really. All right,

[00:37:00.09] spk_6:

[00:37:05.06] spk_3:
why why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really

[00:37:07.87] spk_4:
Well Well, the idea that that ah, you know, a certain group of people white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this wasn’t on ideology that was created. Um, in order, Thio be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been, you know, an idea that is not really, but we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, I was taught that, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if I were to behave or address or act, I’m in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was gonna be, ah, better thing for me. And so we know that the idea white supremacy is you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief.

[00:38:08.65] spk_3:
All right, Um and you’re you also encourage non profits and teams toe have ah, grieving space we’re talking about. We’re talking about grieve. We have about a minute before break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:38:23.18] spk_4:
Yes. So you know, these these steps are personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think, especially those of us working in the non profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave space. Space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into Philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities,

[00:39:06.61] spk_3:
the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But de colonizing wealth dot com That’s where you go. So I gotta take this break.

[00:39:34.75] spk_1:
Tell us, Start with the video at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant porting. You talk to them, have them

[00:39:36.36] spk_3:
watch the video and if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay.

[00:39:44.49] spk_1:
Tony, that m a

[00:39:53.06] spk_3:
slash now back to Edgar Edgar Villanueva. See, I practiced saying Edgard because I just assumed on. I thought, now I’m sure he uses Edgar, just

[00:39:57.42] spk_4:
like editor Allan Poe.

[00:39:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, I know, I know. I understand. That’s the, uh, uh, your name

[00:40:11.56] spk_3:
your Taliban ass anyway, And I I, uh I assumed we know what makes you know what happens when you make assume, make an ass of you and me, uh, so Okay,

[00:40:15.26] spk_5:
uh, Edgar, um, I

[00:40:15.37] spk_1:
like the idea

[00:40:30.21] spk_3:
of the grieving space. You know, acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds. 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how oppressive is that?

[00:40:38.83] spk_4:
Very oppressive. And in philanthropy is, especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of like, how this wealth was a master secrets that were then these families that you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward. As she said.

[00:41:24.56] spk_3:
And that was the next step in terms of, uh, your next step apologizing. Recognizing, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the Reynolds Kate be Is it Kate Pickett, Be Reynolds Foundation, Reynolds Tobacco, North Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not gonna ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we talked about in the in the steppe, apologizing.

[00:41:31.91] spk_4:
Absolutely. There was. There was no acknowledgment of that. And, uh, chapter one of the book is called My Arrival on the Plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of R. J. Reynolds and so really, literally and metaphorically, I was I was working there, but no, there was. There’s no acknowledgment of that. And I think you see that, you know, in North Carolina recently, the chancellor of you of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners. What most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition.

[00:42:28.10] spk_3:
Yeah, acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t Johns Hopkins University do something similar? That that they had their founders were, uh, Johns Hopkins. Their founders were slave owners,

[00:42:30.73] spk_4:
I think. Georgetown University,

[00:42:34.47] spk_3:
Georgetown. Sorry. Thank you. Okay, Georgetown, they were

[00:42:35.48] spk_1:
pretty, right? There were priests,

[00:42:37.76] spk_3:
priest founders that were slave owners.

[00:42:41.71] spk_4:
That’s right. Actually, no. Ah, friend of mine who lives in New Orleans is ah, black woman who is a descendant, um, and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together, talking about the history, talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And, you know, this has been a very ah healing, I think Ford, the university, and but also front for my friend Karen, who is now having that You know that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors.

[00:43:25.68] spk_3:
You talk a good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um, Canada, You

[00:43:26.14] spk_1:
got to get the book way. Can’t. Can’t tell all

[00:43:28.56] spk_3:
these stories. I mean, I know what listeners I know. I know you love stories as much as I do, but

[00:43:32.32] spk_1:
there’s not enough time to just get the damn book.

[00:43:34.26] spk_3:
Just goto de colonizing both dot com For Pete’s sake. You

[00:43:41.40] spk_1:
go right now. If you’re listening Live, Where are you? But Pepsi? Schenectady, Uh, Nottingham, Maryland. Just go to

[00:43:47.80] spk_3:
de colonizing wealth dot com. Um, okay. Listening. You talk about mm. Empathic and generative listening.

[00:45:07.26] spk_4:
Right. So, you know, often when we when we moved to a process like this, we feel bad. We’ve apologized. Um, the default, sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, Okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so But before you move for an act, you just need to Paul’s toe, actually. Listen, tony, listen and learn. So thio for nonprofits, You know, I ran a non profit. I’ve worked in flame 34 14 years. When I asked non profits, What is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always I just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda. And on the non profit, they’re gonna be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience. And their history is just gonna make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is thio two to stop at times toe also, Listeninto let others be hard.

[00:45:57.50] spk_3:
Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Yeah, listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of donors. Andi, I know you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s That’s the beginning of a relationship, is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing, um, to whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees. Um, there there’s a lot to be learned. Goes back to the value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Um, Okay. So relation You want us to Ah, you want to relate?

[00:46:01.93] spk_1:
Let me ask

[00:46:05.23] spk_3:
you. Ah, you read, um, how to win friends and influence. People say dozens of times. Doesn’t I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book? You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Ah, Dale Carnegie’s book. Dozens of times.

[00:46:19.68] spk_4:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um I stole from the library of Ah. My mom was a domestic worker and she was carrying for ah, frail, elder elderly man handle this vast library. So ended up with this little book that you

[00:46:34.86] spk_3:
stole from an infirm.

[00:46:36.32] spk_4:
I believe. You know, I feel terrible about book Haunts me to this day. So this is a public.

[00:46:42.17] spk_1:
Didn’t even think to leave, like, 20 bucks or something on the table and have

[00:47:09.42] spk_4:
it if I had it at that. All right, Um, so hopefully this is my my way of giving back. This is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the wouldn’t take away from me in that book. Ah, is ah is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um, is when you’re when you’re talking to folks. People just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um, and if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend like, Well, Edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if I did

[00:47:22.68] spk_1:
it right, and so yeah,

[00:47:23.33] spk_4:
it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are, um, you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just gonna really take you much further and building a relationship

[00:47:45.83] spk_3:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking You

[00:47:46.00] spk_1:
have you have an

[00:47:50.78] spk_3:
example of? Ah, um a ah, like building design. Like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of offices.

[00:48:08.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas of, like, the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edges. Absolutely. Foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office, right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And, um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:48:40.37] spk_3:
Take a break. When we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational designed to instead of just office designed

[00:49:34.86] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation you’ve got your best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists, especially in the non profit space and other media, of course. Bloggers. Um uh, what were the other examples of media besides generals? Um, of course, any of the, uh, webinars that you could your expertise could be portrayed in webinars seminars, conferences. They can build those relationships. That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. They’re at turn hyphen to dot ceo. We’ve got butt loads, more time for de colonizing wealth.

[00:49:38.62] spk_3:
Now, we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both dotcom get the thing, get the book. Um, in terms of designing organizations ah, more egalitarian. You’d like to see

[00:49:52.48] spk_4:
absolutely so one of the steps the book is represent. And would

[00:49:56.54] spk_1:
you look

[00:49:56.95] spk_4:
at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part this sector? We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the CEO positions. Folks who really hold power organizations. So

[00:50:14.18] spk_1:
what are

[00:50:25.38] spk_4:
the one of the ideas that I put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many nonprofits. Funders actually are requiring this of their non profit that their funding, Um, and many cover organizations that receive government funding federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the service’s of theirs. Non profits

[00:50:53.40] spk_3:
again be representative. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a That’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:50:58.48] spk_4:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:51:12.01] spk_1:
And there are some

[00:51:12.47] spk_3:
examples use like the Novo Foundation in the book. They have, ah, women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something. Turning tow this building and and the decisions being made by women who are gonna be using the building.

[00:51:56.45] spk_4:
Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation. I really appreciate Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of Doesn’t over foundation wrote the Ford to my book. And they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens Thio folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be.

[00:52:07.49] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds

[00:52:08.62] spk_3:
for five years or seven years guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123 you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment,

[00:52:25.53] spk_4:
right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is Ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding. You know, folks can be you can focus on building a relationship versus oh, I’ve got to meet these certain objectives so I can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna you know how I’m gonna pay the salaries next year really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities

[00:53:00.35] spk_3:
and planning and comm plans that are being one only one or two years. Um, s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing, um, investing.

[00:53:33.04] spk_4:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for, um, for the public. Good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle on issues. If we’re supporting with, the 5% are right hand. Really good work. You know, Michigan, late at work. But in our left hand, we are investing 95% of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so, you know, they’re great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation, for example, who just recently declared that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus, is going to be used and support their mission.

[00:53:51.22] spk_3:
Yeah, on again, other examples in the book and, uh, we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, Actually, um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:54:29.31] spk_4:
the final step is repair all of us who were philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values.

[00:54:47.44] spk_3:
Okay, so I’ll give you last 30 seconds, Uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by What? You what? You talk about your mom?

[00:54:57.70] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving when we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or fix, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so I do you talk about my mom in the book who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and how to run a ministry out of our church to support Children.

[00:55:22.40] spk_1:
Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry

[00:55:24.24] spk_3:
just got got to get the book. You got to read

[00:55:25.63] spk_4:
the last ministry. And so is the giving of time. Treasure and talent not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities and ways that are, um, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists.

[00:55:37.74] spk_3:
Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva Thank you so much. Thank you

[00:55:42.24] spk_4:
for having me on tony.

[00:55:43.11] spk_2:
Real pleasure. Next week. Personalized Philanthropy With Steve Myers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But

[00:55:58.88] spk_1:
Coco Mat in

[00:55:59.36] spk_2:
Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producers

[00:56:35.02] spk_1:
Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great