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Nonprofit Radio for October 18, 2021: Engaged Boards Will Fundraise

My Guests:

Michael Davidson & Brian Saber: Engaged Boards Will Fundraise

Michael Davidson, the board coach, and Brian Saber from Asking Matters, have teamed up to write the book that reveals how to get your board to fundraise: Engage them.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:10.94] spk_3:
Hello and

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welcome to tony-martignetti

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Non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast.

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Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of

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cellulitis if you inflamed and

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irritated me with the idea that you missed this week’s show

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engaged boards

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will fundraise

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Michael Davidson, the board coach and brian Saber from asking matters have teamed up to write the book

[00:00:49.54] spk_5:
that reveals how to get your board to fundraise engage them

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and tony state too

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podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turning to communications

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pr and content for nonprofits.

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Your story is their mission turn hyphen two

[00:01:11.44] spk_2:
dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Michael Davidson and brian Saber, Michael is a consultant specializing in nonprofit board development management, support,

[00:01:22.34] spk_5:
leadership, transition and executive coaching for nonprofit managers. He has over 30 years experience in nonprofit board and managerial leadership.

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Michael’s at board coach

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dot com.

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Brian Saber is a co founder of asking matters

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and one of the fields preeminent experts on the art and science of asking for charitable gifts face to face. He’s been working with boards for more than

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35 years

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to help unlock their fundraising potential

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brian’s company is at asking

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matters dot com and he’s

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at brian Saber together. Michael and bryan co authored the book engaged boards will fundraise

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how good governance inspires them.

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Their book

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brings both of them and back to nonprofit radio

[00:02:12.24] spk_2:
Michael and brian welcome back to

[00:02:15.54] spk_0:
the show what a pleasure great to be back very.

[00:02:17.85] spk_1:
Happy to be here

[00:02:18.61] spk_0:
Glad to have you.

[00:02:21.84] spk_2:
Yes, congratulations on the book. Thank

[00:02:22.12] spk_0:
you,

[00:02:27.44] spk_2:
Michael, your book title is emphatic. There’s no hedging no qualifications.

[00:02:31.34] spk_0:
Absolutely. How can you be

[00:02:32.40] spk_5:
so sure engaged boards will

[00:03:44.94] spk_0:
fundraise? Well, it’s a it’s a great, great question, tony and it really is the answer to that is in the title if if you’ve got a board that really does care about what the mission and the vision is of the organization, that’s why they’re there. If they have that personal motivation to be involved in your organization and to care about the impact that you’re having in the, in the world and are engaged in the ownership of that impact, in managing it. They care enough to do this. What are our whole premises? We can teach board members how to fundraise, brian has been doing that forever. Our job is to figure out how do we make board members want to fundraise and making them want to fundraise is engaging them, engaging them with their fellow board members, connecting them with their fellow board members and deeply connecting them with the vision and the passion that brought them to your board in the first place. That’s the simple, really the simple answer for this. If they’re engaged, they’re gonna want to, they’re gonna want to make this organization happen, which includes raising the money for it

[00:04:00.24] spk_2:
and much of the book is getting that engagement doing it properly. We go from details like the board meeting, which we’re gonna talk about two to broader engagement. You want

[00:04:10.41] spk_0:
Yes. In fact, you say

[00:04:13.04] spk_3:
fundraising must be

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fully integrated

[00:04:15.98] spk_2:
with the active engagement

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of the board

[00:04:18.72] spk_2:
in its, uh, fiduciary and leadership roles.

[00:04:22.78] spk_0:
Right

[00:04:34.24] spk_2:
flush that out for us a little bit. Uh, you know, we got plenty of time together. You don’t have to, you don’t have to pack it all into one answer. But why are we starting to get into their fiduciary in leadership roles? And, and there that relationship with fundraising?

[00:05:18.84] spk_1:
Well, let’s look at the budget for example, and often a budget is presented to the board. The staff puts together a budget and if it seems like it adds up the board approves it often it’s maybe just slightly incremental from the last one. Not a lot of explanation, sometimes a lot of detail without higher level explanation. And so the board is basically just, I hate to say rubber stamping it and that, that’s just that’s very passive if the board is involved in developing the budget and has really given a sense of what can be accomplished with a larger budget

[00:05:29.04] spk_0:
and get to choose

[00:06:34.24] spk_1:
and say yes, we’d like to do more. And we understand our role in that, that we can’t just tell the staff to raise more here is where the money comes from, here is our role. This is how we develop larger donors. It does take the board unless where university with a big major gift staff were it for most organizations. The board is the major gift staff. We get that we want our organization to do more. We’re going to agree to this budget, knowing all of that, then they’re in it together. Everyone around the table is a knowing, a willing participant very different. And we don’t see a lot of that happening. And yes, it’s hard on, especially smaller organizations to get all of this done. But it’s critical. It’s critical not to shortchange the process. If we short change the process, we can’t expect the board too enthusiastically go out and fundraise. This reminds me

[00:06:34.96] spk_2:
of that

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old conventional

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wisdom, you know, ask for if you want money asked for an opinion, your, if you want to, if you want an opinion, ask for money, you’re, you’re, you’re saying you’re getting the board’s opinion, you’re calling an engagement. But it’s bringing in the board’s opinions about what the organization should be doing. What should be paring back where it should be heading. Is that, is that, is that essentially what you’re doing is getting bored getting bored opinions

[00:08:57.24] spk_0:
an ownership because it’s not just their opinion on the budget. They put their opinion into this budget, They work with staff on developing it. But at the end of the day they raise their hand and they say, I approve this budget with these particular fundraising goals included. It. I agree to this. They make that decision. You know, one of the things that’s interesting in connection with this, this puts a lot more work on staff. They got to spend more time on the budget. And very often stand said, oh my God, leave the board, we’ll do the budget. Don’t bother them, it’s going to take too much time to explain all of this to them. They may disagree with us on our priorities, they may think other things are important. I don’t want to get involved in that. Let’s just give them a budget a quick five minute vote and done right. So it requires staff executive director to say, you know, if you want a board that’s going to fundraise, you’ve got to spend the time listening to them explaining to them engaging with them and they may come out somewhat differently than you do. You’ve got to live with that. You got to live with that. It’s not your organization, it’s your joint organization. That’s, you know, that’s a lot of work. So, you know what we’re saying may sound simple, you know, has for advice. You get money. But the reality is, there’s a commitment involved, Both on the part of board members and on the part of staff to make this, you know, staff comes to us all the time, but Brian and I’m here this 10 times a day. My board won’t fundraise. Oh, well, what are you doing to get them to do that right, just another

[00:09:00.48] spk_1:
piece of it, which we’ll get to it, having them do the right fundraising. So that’s the other half of the equation, which cover because it is a double edged sword there. Okay.

[00:09:10.54] spk_0:
Uh,

[00:09:20.04] spk_2:
Michael, can we at points then push back when, when it comes time for, for board commitments around fundraising and say, you know, you all agreed to the, to this budget, You took ownership of the budget, You held your hands up and voted well, now it’s time to fund what you all agreed to. Can you, can you sort of give it back to them that way?

[00:09:39.24] spk_0:
Absolute. And it requires one on 1 work with each board member. And for me, that’s the role of the Resource Development Committee. So let’s talk about it. We’ll get to brian’s magic number of, you know, what are you going to do? Well, And uh, yeah,

[00:09:52.62] spk_2:
well, before we get to the fundraising part, I want to, I want to spend time on the engagement part.

[00:09:56.85] spk_0:
Sure.

[00:10:08.64] spk_2:
Let’s not go anarchy economy. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna get this. You talk about a, a culture that creates full engagement. Uh, who’s best for uh, I don’t know who to call on a Socratic method from law school, I don’t know. Uh, but I don’t want to go like ping pong either brian Michael, brian, Michael, death too monotonous. So, you know, who’s, who’s best for talking about creating this culture of engagement at, on

[00:10:26.55] spk_1:
the board. We love

[00:12:29.04] spk_0:
Michael. okay for me, you know, this came out of it, I did a workshop with a number of consultants on helping them learn how to do what I do. And one of the consultants brilliant actually, we’ve got a quote from her and Catherine devoid. Catherine said, you know what you’re talking about, Michael is a board culture and peter Drucker, the management bureau says, you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. What we want to do when I talk about a culture is a culture is a team for me aboard, culture is a team. We see ourselves as a team. We understand we know each other, we’ve spent time with each other and we jointly want to do something. We jointly believe in this in this mission. Okay. And we encourage and support one another. So the culture at base has a system where board members know each other and work together on various kinds of things. Then you have the motivation and then board members can encourage and hold one another accountable for what they’re doing. So the culture starts with making sure that board members know one another personally personally know who they are, who they are and from that you can begin to build a sense of a team, we’re in this together, we’re not separate. It’s a very, it’s a very different notion of what the board is. You know, you and I tony were lawyers, right? So we start okay, this is the fiduciary responsibility. This is the board. This is what they’re supposed to do brian and I are asking the question, yes, we know what they’re supposed to do. How do we make them want to do it? And part of it is the mission, but part of it is their sense of responsibility to each other. Think about a sports team, right? What makes a good sports team? Not a collection of stars, Right? It’s a collection of individuals who don’t want to let one another down. I want to do my best because I’m with you were doing this together. You get the matter

[00:12:45.94] spk_2:
used to the metaphor, Michael of the rowing because you’re a rower and you had the coach boat and rowers have to be working in unison,

[00:13:48.34] spk_0:
right in unison. And there’s a great quote which I use in the book from the boys in the boat, in which the coach tells this roller, right? You know, you’re a good rower. Let me tell you what you need to do to be a great rower to be a great rower, you need to trust every other guy in the boat when you trust everybody else. You will be great. That’s interesting notion, right? Because I know if I know Tony, I know you’re pulling as hard as you can, I’m gonna pull as hard as I can. If I’m not so sure about you, Why do I kill myself. Right? But I know you tony You’re gonna pull with everything you got. And so I’m gonna pull with everything I got. It’s a very simple kind of notion, but to us it’s very, very important. It’s creating the board as a group, not as a collection of separate individuals as a team and they hold one another accountable and they don’t want to let one another down. It’s the experience we’ve all had brian. How do we start

[00:13:49.60] spk_2:
building this trust among board members?

[00:13:59.14] spk_1:
Friend? Well, first we look at the time we, they spend together and how we’re using it. So I always say to people, it’s amazing the percentage of a board members time that is spent in board meetings and the percentage of the board meeting time that is not spent well.

[00:14:15.34] spk_0:
So

[00:16:10.84] spk_1:
if you’re going to have a two hour meeting every other month, that’s 12 hours and, and maybe they’re in a committee meeting once every two months or once every month or something. But almost all the time is spent together in these meetings. And the meetings have so much, uh, reporting, there’s so much happening there, that doesn’t have to happen. Uh, and, and, and so the meetings don’t allow for this team building where, where the board members are grappling with the big issues and wrestling with the future of the organization, uh, how the organization is presented where it fits in a big, important issues and they should be wrestling with those because they’re the board and they have the responsibility for moving this organization ahead, keeping it safe, making sure it’s doing the right thing. And uh, so many board meetings have very little discussion of program presentation of program reporting back from board members of what they’ve seen in the program. And lots of board members rarely even see the program in action. So the board meetings are very report central centric. No one wants to give up their their chairman’s report, their executive directors report this report, that report. And we try to move people towards these consent agendas where all the reports go out in advance are simply approved and you have to read them. You have to read them in advance because you can’t just come to the meeting and expect to have a conversation about them even. And even the action steps should be discussed. You

[00:16:18.84] spk_2:
even suggest in the book that questions about what’s in the consent agenda have to be submitted in advance of the meeting. You can’t come to the meeting with your questions about the previous the previous minutes or or everything or the reports that are in the consent agenda. You got to submit your questions in advance. So we know you’ve read them.

[00:16:30.54] spk_5:
It’s time for a

[00:16:37.44] spk_3:
break turn to communications. You want relationships with journalists than hire former journalists

[00:16:39.92] spk_0:
who know how

[00:17:10.14] spk_3:
to build those relationships, including one of them. One of the partners worked as an editor at the Chronicle of philanthropy. But both partners, our former journalists. So they know how to build those relationships. They know when it’s the right time to contact journalists. They know how deadlines work and they can coach you on talking to the journalists once they get you those relationships. So you want the relationships higher folks who used to

[00:17:11.64] spk_5:
do that work,

[00:17:44.54] spk_3:
turn to communications, they’ll get you set up. They have existing relationships that can help you build new relationships with journalists. And where are those existing ones? You’ve heard me regale you with the the litany of media outlets were turned to has relationships. So figure turned to communications, talk to them, turn hyphen two dot c o Your story is their mission

[00:17:48.64] spk_5:
now back to

[00:17:49.72] spk_3:
engaged boards

[00:17:51.11] spk_5:
will fundraise

[00:17:53.94] spk_2:
how many of us has been in board meetings where people, you can see, you see, you see people for the first time, they get there 10 minutes early and they’re poring over their board notebook and you’re just sure that that’s the first time they cracked it open 10 minutes before the meeting. And what’s really, they’re wasting

[00:18:10.46] spk_5:
their time at that point.

[00:18:38.54] spk_1:
And then you get one or two board members who hijack a meeting with questions and they shouldn’t be allowed to, no one gets to hijack a meeting. And if you have this, this structure in place, which is much more about discussion and moving the organization forward, building the team and such, Then there isn’t that time for the small questions. I mean I get driven crazy when budgets are presented and someone goes to one small line item and ask the question. It’s so bad. In many ways. We’re trying to move people away from

[00:19:58.44] spk_0:
that tony There’s another side to this and that’s the role of the executive director in this. Because what we’re urging is that there’ll be substantive questions, for example, on such and such a program. What is the impact of that program and how do we measure that impact? Right. That’s an important engaged, more discussion. Executive directors many say, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don’t want them getting into program. That’s my job. If they start talking about programs, it means they’re trying to manage how I do my my implementation work. Right? And we say we want we want boys to be faced with the real issues, as we say in the book, the good, the bad and the ugly well, executive directors don’t like to do that. They just want to give the board good news put out their report and go home and hope that they don’t bother them. So this partnership takes too right. You’ve got to have an executive director who is willing to engage with the board in these substantive discussions about the future of the organization about the problems that the organization is having about its challenges, not just a good news. So it takes it’s two sided. You can’t do this.

[00:19:59.87] spk_2:
What is the appropriate role for a board member? Board members

[00:22:15.14] spk_0:
around program Michael, for me it’s about impact, it’s not about how you do your program, it’s about what your program is designed to accomplish. And how do you measure what’s the vision, what are you trying to do? How do you measure that impact? I’ve got, you know, I’m on the selection committee for the Awards of Excellence and nonprofit management and one of the things that would look at his program impact. Let me give you one of my favorite examples and that’s the board involved in impact. Right? Um you know, I’m a rower. So this is it’s a rolling story. Okay, so wonderful organization, new york city koro new york no new york works with local high school kids, makes them into competitive rowers, which is really good for their college applications, works with them on college prep stuff and stuff. They were off the wall about the results of their program, 98% of their kids were getting into college. Fantastic. Right. Fantastic. Well. But they had also been collecting data on their kids and one of the things that they saw in their data is that their kids were not doing so great in college. And so the executive director and the board started to look at this data and said, you know, we’re focusing on the wrong end point. Our endpoint should not be college acceptance. Our endpoint, our impact point should be college graduation. So now what do we have to do programmatically to reach that? And we have to put resources, the different kinds of programs and the program to keep track of the kids once they’re in school, bring them back so on and so forth. But it was the board and the executive director looking at the data and looking at the question, what is our goal? What is the impact we’re trying to make? And by doing that, they jointly changed where they were directing resources, some of the staff that they were doing and stuff like that. So that’s an example for me of the board being involved in program, but at the right level at the level of impact and the level of data, not how do you teach? And that’s what executive directors tend to be afraid of. Once they start talking about program then they’re going to start talking about how do I teach you, How do I run my classroom and so on and so forth. And then to the board job

[00:22:26.84] spk_2:
brian, let’s talk a little more about nuts and bolts of

[00:22:29.27] spk_5:
meetings.

[00:22:57.44] spk_2:
If if this is the primary time that the board is spending together, whether it’s committee meetings or or full board meetings. Uh in fact, I’m imagining you two would advocate for social time for the board as well. But so we can, you know, we’ll get to the social part, let’s let’s talk more about some nuts and bolts meetings were trying to build a team, we’re trying to build trust. We want to focus on the right things. What, what more advice they have around meeting structure.

[00:24:32.74] spk_1:
Well, first of all, the agenda needs to be developed jointly by the executive director and board leadership. Sometimes that’s just the chair, sometimes that’s the entire executive committee and it needs to be developed in advance and everyone needs to know their role and be prepared, not just wing it. Uh, so that’s, that’s the first piece. I often hear boards talking about one hour meetings. Now this idea of making meetings very efficient and it reminds me of this issue with government and people want small government. It’s really better government that you want, right? You don’t want to waste the time. It’s not that you’ve got to make it smaller, but it needs to work. Right? And I think an hour is not enough time. I think an hour and a half to two hours gives you uh, the flexibility to dig into a topic. Uh, you have to have some sort of program presentation every time there’s, there’s no substitute for that. The more we connect board members program and give them an opportunity to ask questions about it to learn about it, the stronger their connection will be. So there needs to be programmed presentation, Michael and I prefer that board members are out there, uh, seeing program and are bringing back their own recollections and sharing those with the board. Uh so those those are important. Uh

[00:24:34.34] spk_0:
the

[00:24:55.54] spk_1:
uh we should not have a long executive directors report. We should be asking the executive director just as we ask all the committee chairs to submit their reports in advance. Uh The chair’s report should be very short at the very beginning, very high level, Michael, would you add to that?

[00:25:17.34] spk_0:
Yes, I didn’t do exactly. One is I love to time my agendas. I lay out, you know, we we lay out what’s gonna be and then I put five minutes, 15 minutes, whatever it is and that does a couple of things. No one, it focused the board, it makes us think about where we want big discussion and where we don’t want big discussion. And it also gives the chair of the power to cut things off. So if someone’s going off on a on a rabbit out, you know, at the minute, I know we’ve only got five minutes for this, we have to end discussion now because otherwise they’re not going to get to the I think so, timing the agenda is a big deal. You know, Michael, I’ve

[00:25:41.58] spk_2:
even seen where a board and I’ve seen this in other meetings as

[00:25:45.58] spk_5:
well outside the board

[00:25:46.67] spk_2:
setting, where

[00:25:47.80] spk_5:
there’s a timekeeper

[00:26:09.34] spk_2:
appointed so that the chair can keep the conversation flowing and relevant. And the timekeeper is the one who says, we only have three minutes left for this topic. you know, like mr mr and mrs board chair, there are only three minutes left on this topic, you know, it’s up to you to decide what you want to do, but I’m the timekeeper and I’m letting you know there’s only three minutes left, just another another

[00:27:34.74] spk_0:
enforcer. And it’s an interesting notion, I actually kind of like it he goes back to as you know, I spent a good part of my legal career as a prosecutor, you know, and the notion of good cop, bad cop, right? So so the board chairs the good cop or oh no, I’m not controlling this, right? Someone else is telling us we have to stop, I’d love to let you talk forever, right? Yeah, good. You know, so it’s a good thing. The other thing too is there’s a framework for board discussions which rob Acton is used in his uh in his writings and he’s you know, and he says there are three kinds of questions that boards need to be looking at generative strategic and fiduciary, Okay, generative is where are we going? Why are we doing this? What’s on purpose? Right. Strategic is how do we do it? And fiduciary other details. And you know, part of what happens is so much of board meetings tend to be taken up with fiduciary matters and not enough time on generative and strategic matters. So again, as the as the leadership team is thinking about the agenda, they should be asking, you know, are there questions of that nature, generative and strategic that we need to be thinking about, you know, so it’s the paradigm. Yeah, brian’s got his

[00:28:25.44] spk_1:
hand out and I want to add to that, that when we talk about developing these board meetings, a lot of boards meet, if not every month every other month. And I’ve always felt the more often you meet and it’s not something we talked talked about in the book, but it’s something Michael and I have talked about, the more often you meet, the the more likely it is you’re going to get into more details because less has happened in the two months you get out of the meeting. Everyone has one committee meeting perhaps than your back. And, and I don’t think boards have to meet as a board every two months. I think if they meet quarterly as a board, there’s it’s easier to see the big picture. It gives more time for committee work in between and and that alone could help lessen the focus on the new sha

[00:28:34.84] spk_0:
it’s an interesting question. Um I I go both ways, depending upon the organization and and the size of the board. But one of the things that’s interesting about another question about board meetings is how do we use board meetings to connect board members with one another?

[00:28:49.84] spk_2:
It was going to get to this. I wanted to get to the social side

[00:30:31.44] spk_0:
of this. Great. okay, okay. Yeah. So how do we, well, it’s very it’s really interesting because I think, and I’ve been thinking about this a lot as we emerge from covid, hopefully emerge from covid. Right? And, you know, very often would say, okay, you know, what we’ll do is we’ll have a cocktail party before the board meeting, have some wine and cheese, maybe after the board. Me, it’s interesting, but it’s surprise problematic because what’s likely to happen, what’s likely to happen is that board members will talk to people that they know people that they usually talk to write and they’re going to talk with them about the things that they usually talk about, right, your your your golf game, your your your your your other involvements, whatever things that they have in common they talk about. And what I’ve been trying to think about it, we mentioned in the book is how do we create, how do we structure the interpersonal connection so that it’s deeper. Um, I just did this yesterday. So whatever the most recent thing in my mind always helps. Right? So I retreated, I facilitated a board retreat yesterday, which actually was in person. Um, and but what we did was before the, before the meeting, and this can be done, we assigned pairs of board members. Everybody was in a pair of two and they had an assignment, what they had to do was to interview the other person, find out about them, what they like, what they do, what their passions are, what they care about, what they read, what kind of music they’re kids. They’re this they’re that find out about who they are as a person, and then each one had to then introduce the other at the board meeting. Okay, so this is something to take some time and you can’t do it all the time. But it’s a very interesting way. And I asked him, I said, what was this like you said, this was great. These are really interesting people. I want to work with these people.

[00:30:50.34] spk_2:
There’s no going back to your team. Team building.

[00:31:05.74] spk_0:
Team, yep. So if if we’re if we’re going to try to create opportunity social opportunities, we need to think about what’s the best way to do that to achieve our goals. I’m skeptical.

[00:31:06.89] spk_2:
I’m a little concerned about wine before the

[00:31:09.34] spk_0:
meeting. I get a little too uh a

[00:31:14.07] spk_2:
little too loose lipped maybe. But but I love the idea of introducing someone you don’t know, get you to talk to somebody that’s outside your comfort zone, but ought not be because their fellow board

[00:31:27.74] spk_0:
member. Yeah,

[00:31:53.14] spk_1:
I had a program at one organization where I was uh, where we, we had board members go out after the meeting together and we assigned the groups so that we had a good mix and people would, would meet each other and and they were, the goal was for them to do that twice a year. Uh It’s all about time. Right? But we thought that was important time to spend so that they’d at least go out to dinner with half the board. Some of it depends on the size of your board and what you can accomplish, right? But we didn’t want groups of more than six because we wanted people to be able to talk with each other. So what we might send two groups of six out in different directions.

[00:33:04.64] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, and it’s interesting. I’ve seen people do very simple things at the beginning of a board meeting uh consultant I worked with, she always starts out every board meeting with a question. So tell me about the kind of music you like. Right, two seconds. Tell me about the most interesting book you’ve read recently and why? It was interesting to you. Right? I mean, two seconds we can do that at a board meeting. It loosens everybody up. It enables people who are introverts to have to say something to get out there and talk. It puts a limit for the extroverts on how much they can talk, Right? But it’s a, you know, so you can do devices like this, recognize it because it’s important, it’s important to recognize the importance of the board culture that unless we have that sense of connection between people, none of this stuff is going to work.

[00:33:11.14] spk_2:
Okay. And now let’s bring it to the, to the book title,

[00:33:13.90] spk_0:
Okay, Will Will fundraise,

[00:33:16.58] spk_2:
shall shall engage board shall fundraise.

[00:33:19.58] spk_0:
How is No, no, no, no. We didn’t use the word shall know. I, I added shall because that’s probably that’s perspective. Okay. Prescriptive, prescriptive, I know,

[00:33:41.74] spk_2:
yes, contract, contract you shall versus well, um, no, the book title is engaged. Boards will fundraise. So how does having better board meetings and board members knowing each other better through these simple social devices? Social methods

[00:33:49.74] spk_5:
improve our fundraising?

[00:36:09.83] spk_1:
Right. Well, as Michael has talked about a fair amount, it creates a team and a sense of joint responsibility. You think that it exists just because they have all joined this same organization, but you can’t just accept that in fact you have to work on it. So, by building this team, this camaraderie by by helping people understand each other. Uh, there is a shared sense of of, of responsibility. Second, by really engaging the board in these discussions and having the board understand the organization at a more nuanced and important level. It is easier for them to talk about the organization to feel comfortable doing it to represent it properly and to do it passionately, which is key to fundraising right? Being an ambassador for the organization. So many board members, uh, say I I don’t know enough about the organization to go out and talk about it. I’m afraid I’m going to say the wrong thing. I don’t know the organization like the executive director does. And one of the steps here is to get board members more comfortable as ambassadors talking about it. Uh, and it’s funny because I always say to board members, you don’t need to know all the details. You don’t have to know every little thing and all the numbers and such. You just have to be passionate and authentic to tell a good story and get people excited about the organization. And it incense goes hand in hand with the board meetings, Right? And if we’re concentrating on Mnuchin the board meetings, then the board members think they need to know the menu. Sha if we stay out of the Mnuchin the board meetings, then the board members can feel okay, this bigger picture is what’s important. So, so we build a sense of responsibility and we build, uh, more of a comfort in talking about the organization. We also build an understanding of why the funds are needed and what they will do, right? It’s not just, we need money. Uh, will you give me money? I love this charity, but this is the impact we’re going to have. They can talk about that. So, okay, so that gives them a basis for going on fundraising

[00:36:48.23] spk_2:
and that’s sort of a perfect transition to getting now to the discussion of engaging the board in the right kind of funding in fundraising. So, you know, listen, you just get, you got to get the book to, to learn more about how to engage your board. Um, they talk about the different duties of care and loyalty and obedience that board members have an, uh, governance. There’s, there’s good talk about governance uh, that you know, belonging in in one place and management, belonging by the other management, by staff, governance by the word. You gotta, you gotta be the book to get more of that detail about engaging.

[00:36:50.13] spk_5:
It’s time for Tony Take two.

[00:37:02.03] spk_3:
Oh, can I tell you how much I love sending podcast pleasantries. Thank you. I’m just grateful that you are a

[00:37:02.21] spk_5:
supporter of the show

[00:37:03.67] spk_3:
listening, whether you sample or you

[00:37:08.63] spk_5:
subscribe however you do it. listen all at once to 12 shows or you are the first one

[00:38:03.82] spk_3:
after the shows get published each monday. The first one clicking Thank you pleasantries to you are over 13,000 podcast listeners in aggregate, but you, you’re the person I’m talking to, I’m talking to you right now. I’m thanking. I thank you and I’m thanking you. That’s passive, isn’t it? I’m thanking you. I thank you. I know that’s active. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I’m glad you’re with us. Glad you’re supporting the show. I’m glad the show brings you value. Otherwise you wouldn’t be hearing me hearing me right now. You want to shut me off years ago. So thanks, thanks for being with me. Thanks for being with nonprofit radio That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo, but loads more

[00:38:06.37] spk_5:
time for

[00:38:07.82] spk_3:
engaged boards will

[00:38:10.41] spk_5:
fundraise.

[00:38:15.32] spk_2:
So now let’s talk about engaging the boards, you know, specifically in fundraising. Um, you two

[00:38:18.11] spk_5:
have

[00:38:19.12] spk_2:
was, I think six different six things, you know, like make the case identify the resistance. Is that the best way to talk through the engaging the boarding fundraising? Or is there a better

[00:41:15.91] spk_0:
way for me? There’s another way to start it. And that is what brian has been talking about right now is giving the board members the basic tools, Right? Thank you. They know how to tell a story or they’ve got a story to tell them. But one of the things that we look at is the fact that there is discomfort resistance about fundraising. It is not something we do in our normal lives, right? We, we do our jobs, we’re professionals, we don’t go out trying to engage other people in the things that we’re engaged in. Right? So they need help doing that. It’s part of the team. Thing is they want to feel, I want them to feel responsible to one another. But in addition, there has to be some guidance from either from fellow board members are from staff into how to do this. So board member says, okay, I, I know I know these, I know these people, you know, I’m comfortable with and I’m willing to talk about it. I’m a little, I’m uncomfortable asking them for something. They were gonna tell me, no, it’s gonna harm the relationship and stuff like that. So time needs to be spent. Either one on one with board members and within a member of the resource development Committee or is there a member to go through? Okay. Let’s figure out how you do this one with respect to the resistance that you have about it. How do you overcome that resistance? You know, what do you do? So, for example, one of the techniques I told board members is you never want the first conversation you have with somebody about your organization to be a conversation we’re asking for money. That’s the kiss of death. So what you’ve got to get to do is OK, here’s what you got to do over the next few weeks. You are you gonna talk to any friends? Yes, I’m gonna talk to some women. Okay. Here’s what I want you to do in those conversations. Find something that they’re interested in. That allows you to bring up your experience with this organization. You’re not asking for money. You’re not ask them to do anything. You’re just bringing this organization into the conversation. That’s your job. Okay. Now, after you do this, let’s come back and talk about it and tell us what your experience is. Now you can do this with the entire board, right? We’re at a board meeting. Okay, Everybody next week or between now and the next board meeting has to have one of these conversations with a friend come back and report at the next board meeting. Let’s see what we learned? What was difficult? What worked did they ask you questions? What would be the next steps? So they’ve got to both feel responsible for one another. But it also at the same time gets support from one another for doing this incrementally, because this is new to all of us. It’s new because you have

[00:41:31.41] spk_2:
an exercise in the book seemed ideal for a board meeting where you uh, you ask for board members to list their objections to fundraising and then list there a personal experience of either having asked or being asked in the past. And the two don’t do don’t align like the reality cancels out the objections exactly whose idea is that. Is that yours, Michael?

[00:43:10.90] spk_0:
Or that’s that’s me. Yeah, it’s a very simple exercise. You know, I I like to draw upon personal personal experience. I believe that board members got the answers to all these things I’m concerned about. They just haven’t talked about it. My job is to get them to talk about it. So, yeah, they’re going to tell me about I don’t want to fundraise. That’s going to be, this is gonna be that they’re going to hate me, bah bah bah bah bah fine. Okay. Now, let’s talk about what actually happened in your life? Have you ever given money to anybody? Why? What was there about that circumstance that made you comfortable and want to do that? So we take their experience and bring it back work. I just, I’m gonna intercept here and you can cut this out if you want. One of my later readings is I’ve gone back to the Socratic dialogues, Plato’s writings about Socrates because what Socrates believed was that everybody had the answers to all these important questions in their head and his job was just the program and ask the questions to get it out. And I believe, I believe this about boards. Our job is to use their experience, not tell them what they’re doing wrong. Take what they’ve done and learn from it and help them learn from it simple.

[00:43:13.70] spk_2:
You’re right. That that’s worthless. I’m gonna cut that

[00:43:15.63] spk_0:
out. Yeah.

[00:43:19.08] spk_2:
Right.

[00:43:19.58] spk_0:
But yeah. So

[00:44:21.99] spk_1:
you adding to what Michael said, one of the, one of the kickers here is board members having to ask all their friends only to be asked to give gifts in return to the other organizations that you know with pro quo. And I’ve been talking about this for a decade ad nauseam because it is horrible short term transactional fundraising. All transactional. And it’s gotten really bad in our field to our detriment. And everyone gets sort of, uh, the organizations get stuck on this. It’s like, uh, like cocaine, right? And, and, and and can’t move away from it. Well, we need the $50,000. The board raises and like, Okay, well your board is going to hate doing this type of fundraising, they’re not going to be inspired when they leave, all those gifts are going to leave with them and so forth. So you’ve got a short term gain, you’re getting some money in the door. But everything else is wrong. We don’t, I always had people good point

[00:44:25.11] spk_2:
about just the last one you said, I want to just amplify when the board members leave. Those kids are going with them. When I just, I just wanted to amplify that.

[00:44:33.85] spk_1:
When I say that to boards, a light bulb goes off, I say,

[00:44:38.03] spk_0:
I’m not,

[00:45:35.39] spk_1:
if I’m on the board and I leave the board, I’m not going to keep asking just if I could give gifts to all my friends. And what what happens when you have me as a board member, uh, do this is I end up giving money away to organizations I don’t care about just to be nice. And whereas it would be better if I gave all that money into my organization that I love and tell people you give it where you love where you, where you’re excited because then I’ve made a bigger investment in my own organization, have a bigger stake, more of an investor. And if I think I first wrote about this 10 years ago that if I had one wish in the nonprofit world, it would be to stop the quid pro quo fundraising today because it’s a Sisyphean task. It’s just not getting anyone anywhere. It’s keeping them from anything strategic and it and it is burning out the board members. And when board members come to the board often they’re on their first board. They assume that this is the type of fundraising we’re going to ask them to do, which is why they have such resistance.

[00:45:46.89] spk_0:
What do you

[00:45:47.39] spk_2:
want to see in in its place?

[00:48:49.57] spk_1:
What I want to see is the board members to serve as ambassadors and what I call many major gift officers. So let’s look, people look at the big shots, they look at the hospitals in the universities and these massive organizations Because they raise so much money and they’re very visible and they all have what we call major gift staffs. They have a staff whose sole responsibility is to take 150 200 prospects donors and cultivate and solicit them and steward them along. Right. And and those staff For year after year have these people have this portfolio if we want to call it that. And that’s great. But most organizations have a budget under $1 million. Most organizations are lucky if they have one development officer who’s doing everything. Special events, direct mail, grant writing, crowdfunding You name it and maybe has 5% of their time to actually go out and talk to significant individual donors. So what I want rather than this transactional fundraising is for every board member To be a mini major gift officer with four prospects slash donors on their radar screen who they stick with and those may or may not be their own contacts. Many organizations have people who need more attention than they’re getting and they don’t get it because the executive director and our director of development don’t have the time. I’d sooner see the board members taking donors out to coffee calling them and thanking them for gifts, attending cultivation events with them and asking them what they think than being worried about soliciting the gift. I’m much less concerned about board members asking for a gift. They don’t have to ask for a gift as a matter of fact and I only was thinking of this this past week. Major gift officers don’t always ask for the gift. So I was a major gift officer from my alma mater. I was in charge of solicitations in the midwest big gifts. And you know, there were times I asked many and there were times when someone else asked the president, the senior vice president, a volunteer. This idea that just because you’re cultivating and Stewart and someone means you are the Askar, it actually doesn’t even add up with professionals. So I want the board concentrated on this other work, which most of them are willing to do. Oh, I’ll happily call for people and thank them for their gifts. So I’d be happy to take people out and thank them and get to know them better. Ask them if they’ll come with me or send them a personalized update. And this is incredibly important work. If we’re going to build relationships. And the other point I put out, the three of us know the numbers that most, Most of the money, most of the charitable gifts come from individuals, 85, everything. Yeah.

[00:48:56.82] spk_2:
When you had requests, it’s like 88 or so, but it had requested 77 or something like

[00:49:39.47] spk_1:
that. The largest gifts come from people, we know if you look at your own given right and where them and individuals are really loyal. I ask people all the time on boards. This is part of breaking down that resistance. What’s the longest number of consecutive years you’ve contributed to an organization Now for many, it’s our alma mater, right? So I graduated in 84. I’ve been giving to them for 37 years and I’ll give them till I die. And many people do. That could be your church. We give for decades. So we don’t, it’s not about the short term win. It’s about what I call an annuity of gifts over what could be decades. If you bring someone in them, they get excited most of our organizations or institutions that are going going to be doing our work forever. Some are meant to put themselves out of business and resolve some problems. But most nonprofits will be here for 100 200 years assuming the planet is and helping people with medical needs, helping seniors, helping kids get educated, whatever it is, building community and we want people to have a state for a long time. So let’s have board members helped build that state with these individuals

[00:50:38.96] spk_2:
and that that also relieves board members of the, the fear and anxiety of having to be the solicitor. You know, some board members will step up to that. Uh, some will with training but it’s not necessary. You’re saying board members can be building the relationships in all these different ways. May be hosting something in your home with four or 6 couples or something. All these different ways. You

[00:50:42.79] spk_5:
mentioned the thank you,

[00:50:43.66] spk_2:
notes the acting as the ambassador all these ways and then maybe you’re cultivating them for someone else to do

[00:50:50.59] spk_5:
the solicitation.

[00:50:54.56] spk_2:
Maybe maybe the board member is involved in it or maybe not. You know, it doesn’t have to be

[00:51:18.26] spk_1:
right. It goes back to the good cop bad cop, the board members, the good cop and then brings the executive Director of director development and to ask for the gift that’s perfectly legit perfectly legit. I played that role many times as an executive Director Director of Development. Where I asked uh, yeah, where the board member cued it up. But I was the Oscar

[00:51:48.36] spk_2:
right and you’re collaborating in the relationship, the board members reporting back, letting the Ceo no, you know, this is, this is how it went with her baba. You know the ceo is asking, you know, do you feel like it’s maybe it’s the right time for me to ask or for us to ask or is it still too early? Or look, she expressed interest in this particular program. And you know, the board was just talking about expanding that, putting putting more resources to that. This could be a very timely topic for me to bring up at a meeting with her or or the three of us know you’re collaborating around the relationship strategizing about when the best time is to actually do the

[00:52:34.05] spk_0:
solicitation, right? And going back to board meetings for a second. One of the things you want to do with the board meeting is acknowledged. The people that have done this. You know, wow, let me, let me tell you, the executive director says, let me tell you that. You know brian and I brian introduced me to so and so and we had a meeting and you know, we walked away with a check for $5000. Thank you brian, do you do right, celebrate it builds it celebrate the winds and it builds it into the culture. You don’t want to be the only one who never gets thank you. Right.

[00:52:38.45] spk_2:
Let’s talk about the expectations, establishing

[00:52:42.07] spk_5:
expectations around

[00:52:44.45] spk_2:
giving and fundraising for board

[00:52:47.21] spk_1:
minimums. Yes, who wants

[00:52:49.37] spk_2:
to kick that off. Let’s spend a little time with that. Yeah brian

[00:55:36.44] spk_1:
can I? Because I’m, I have, I’m rabbit about this one actually to, um, I cannot stand minimums and given gats I give or gets Excuse me. I believe that everyone should do their best on both. Besides everyone should give a personally significant gift as an investor in this organization and do their best at fundraising. And uh, without going into great detail, what I see time and again, there’s a minimum gift ends up being a ceiling out of floor. You think everyone’s going, ok, everyone’s gonna give at least this. But most people then give that, it feels like dues. You set the, the amount low so that most people can reach it, you still have some who can’t. And, and it’s been proven again and again, that, uh, that minimum gifts do not generate the largest gifts, minimum gift requirements don’t help. And people say, well, how do board members know what to do? And I said, well from the very beginning, and we talk about a job prospectus in the job description, You tell prospective board members, here’s the range of gifts we have board members giving anywhere from $500 to $5000 depending on their capacity. We ask people to do something very significant given the who they are and what they can do generally right. We want everyone to feel that they’ve made a gift they thought about that’s important to them. Some people ask for one of the top three gifts you give anywhere, which is a very concrete way to put it in and, and works. So on the gift front, you give people guidelines. And here’s, here’s an interesting thing you actually asked board members for a gift. I’m amazed. We’ve never best fundraising, best practice fundraising. We ask our major gift donors for an exact amount, Tony would you consider a gift of $10,000, etc? And yet we let our board members just give whatever they want to give. Why would we do that? I really push asking every board member for a specific amount that, that, that is personally significant to them. Makes them think about what’s significant And on the get side, I really believe it should be the best of your ability because if we say you’ve got to give or get 5000 a board member with a lot of capacity can just give the whole thing and not do any work or swap gifts with friends. And yet and the board member with less capacity is left, um, doing the hard work and that doesn’t make for a team. Everyone needs to do the hard work together.

[00:56:58.63] spk_0:
There’s a couple of, I mean I’ve learned this from brian’s and that’s my, become my mantra, working with working with boards about personally significant gifts and there’s a couple of, there’s another consideration now, especially with, with our desire to diversify our boards, polls, we may be reaching into populations that don’t have access to resource, but they’re important in terms of perspectives that they bring to our deliberations. And so having this as the standard personally significant gift for everybody. It’s equal. We’re all equal. We’re all giving the best we can. Another part of that. And I really like what brian says about, you know, asking our board members, it’s a negotiation, right? It’s not a no, I I need $1000 from you. And that’s what you gotta do because you’re a board member. It’s what I, you know, let me, let me tell you what I give. Okay, Okay. And now here’s what I think might be reasonable for you. Let’s talk about it. Okay. Is it is that a reasonable gift for you? It’s not demanding its opening a conversation as, as the possibilities. So, you know, I mean, I’ve done some capital fundraising and very often we ended up in a negotiation. You know, I asked, I went in asking for a certain amount, which I thought that person could give or we thought that that person could give when I put that number on the table and kept my mouth shut for a few minutes. You know, so they came back and they said, well, you know, that’s a little, okay. Let’s talk about it then.

[00:57:20.23] spk_2:
Support. Support training. It could be training could be staff, support for the, for the board that the, that the, uh, the employees, the staff are, are obligated to give either their own or through a consultant. What kind of, what kind of board, what kind of support do we need to give our board members around fundraising?

[00:57:41.83] spk_0:
Yeah, there are two,

[01:00:39.01] spk_1:
two pieces here. The first gets back to something, Michael said a long time ago about staff and the need for staff support in terms of the board meetings and the board members being involved, board members will only help with the fundraising. To the extent they have staff support. They’re always gonna need staff guidance materials, someone to bounce ideas off of and, and such staff need to be managing this, reminding board members of, uh, their next action step with a certain donor, um, providing materials and so forth. So, staff have to keep the tracker, as I call it this, even if it’s an Excel spreadsheet with a list of everyone and who does what and, and, and, and constantly move the process forward. But probably the most important thing is training because as Michael noted, board members come with very little experience and a lot of trepidation and the more training they can get, the more comfortable, they will be the more comfortable and effective. I always ask when I do a training, how many of you have ever been asked for a gift, The way we’re talking about it. How many times has someone said, Michael would you consider sitting down with me so I can ask you for a special gift, our organization. The truth of the matter is with all the asking out there with all the fundraising in every form. Very few people end up in these conversations. It’s the big, big, big, big donors. Right? And, and so many board members have never been on the other side of the equation and really have no idea what one of these meetings about. They assume you just go in and you ask for money. You just say, you know, will you give this? They, there’s no way for them to know because they haven’t experienced it themselves. So we need to teach them what it is. Uh, and that it’s all about the relationship, which definitely takes some of the pressure off. It’s always about the relationship and it is never about the gift to me. That is the number one rule in fundraising and I will leave money on the table time and again. I just, I just coach someone an hour before this conversation who’s the head fund raiser for a program within the school because a donor um, offered up an amount before being asked for an amount and it’s a significant amount and a big step forward. And the question becomes, do I go back, do I negotiate? And some of this is happening by email and I said in knowing the stoner, I said, you take the wind, it’s about the relationship. This is much, this is big for you. There’s always next year, the year after and so forth. So teaching board members, it’s about the relationship, not the gift, whatever happens this year, that’s okay. We’re building the relationship helps them feel more comfortable because they think they’ve got to go in and come out with whatever you all were hoping for. You know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s uh, and we’re guilty of building this mindset. We as a culture.

[01:03:05.00] spk_0:
The other side of it is that there are some very, for me very simple things that boards can learn how to do to build a relationship. For example, one of one of the things I very often do with a board retreat, simple exercise or on fundraising, I told people, look, you’re now going to somebody, you’re sitting in somebody else’s fundraising dinner and there’s somebody sitting next to you. Okay, So you want to have a conversation with the person sitting next to you, get to know them. So here’s your job. You’ve got to ask that person questions about what they’re interested in their lives and so on and so forth. And you’re looking for some place in them that connects with your organization. Then when you find that place, then you can introduce your organization, but that’s your job and we, you know, we pair up and people around, you know, around the room, sit down and try to have these conversations and realize that they can, because these the way in which we want to build relationships is a technique and it’s something we need to practice and become comfortable with. You know, people are not used to really interestingly asking questions. We all tell people things about ourselves, but we don’t ask them questions about themselves. So I mean that’s one of the pieces of support, right? Doing those kinds of things, telling stories quick, you all went to visit a program, tell me something that happened in that program that you saw that really was important to you that inspired you. That made you think about the value of this organization. Tell me the story. Well, people don’t know how to tell stories. They have to learn how to tell stories. It’s it’s but it’s a very simple, you know, these are not complicated techniques, but it’s all part of becoming comfortable in what brian is talking about in this ambassador role, relationship building a relationship relationship. I love the relationship,

[01:03:13.80] spk_2:
not the gift. Like that, brian. All right, we’re gonna leave it, we’re gonna leave it there with the, with the support

[01:03:14.55] spk_5:
idea. You

[01:03:28.60] spk_2:
got to support your board members, Michael Davidson, consultant and coach. He’s at board coach dot com. Ryan saber asking matters, asking matters dot com And he’s at brian Saber, Michael brian thanks very much. Terrific.

[01:03:32.80] spk_0:
Thank you. It was a pleasure tony great questions. Thank you. My

[01:03:36.34] spk_2:
pleasure. I’m just, I’m just trying to keep things going. Look book and

[01:03:40.96] spk_0:
the book, the book, I’m it’s

[01:03:42.61] spk_2:
Michael and bryan, who cares about Michael, Bryant’s the book you want? The book is,

[01:03:46.72] spk_0:
the

[01:03:49.80] spk_2:
book is the book is engaged, boards will fundraise how good governance inspires them. It comes out this week, this week of october

[01:03:58.74] spk_0:
18th. Yes,

[01:04:00.34] spk_2:
it’s not a long book, but it is long on value as you can tell from this outstanding conversation, lots of value in the book

[01:04:08.69] spk_5:
next week.

[01:04:09.65] spk_3:
Deborah Kaplan pa

[01:04:13.29] spk_5:
loves new book. The time for

[01:04:14.99] spk_3:
endowment building is

[01:04:17.45] spk_0:
now

[01:04:19.49] spk_5:
also very emphatic,

[01:04:20.77] spk_3:
just like uh just

[01:04:22.23] spk_5:
like engaged boards will fundraise

[01:04:39.79] spk_2:
if you missed any part of this week’s show. I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two

[01:04:40.92] spk_5:
dot c o

[01:04:42.89] spk_2:
Our creative producer

[01:05:13.09] spk_4:
is Claire Amirov shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that information scotty You with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Mhm

Nonprofit Radio for June 9, 2017: Youth On Boards & Crazy Good Turns

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Michael Davidson & Brett Carey: Youth on Boards

Have you considered reducing the average age of your board members? Would you bring on a teenager? What are the issues with millennial board members around recruiting, engaging and retaining? Dr. Brett Carey was on his first board at 18. Board coach Michael Davidson returns to add his perspective.

 

 

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Duitz hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, i’m your aptly named host one remind you our three hundred fiftieth show is coming up. It’s going to be july twenty eighth, number three fifty and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into apophis itis if you inflame to me with the idea that you missed today’s show youth on boards, have you considered reducing the average age of your board members? Would you bring on a teenager? What are the issues with millennial boardmember za round recruiting, engaging and retaining dr brett carrie was on his first board at eighteen, and bored coach michael davidson returns to add his perspective and crazy good turns rather than non-profit radio here’s the podcast you want to pitch to tell your story, they even have hats and bumper stickers. Crazy good turns host bradshaw shares what they’re about on that show. I told you, take two, take care of yourself, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, wee bey e spelling dot com. It is my pleasure to welcome back michael davidson hey has over thirty years of experience in non-profit board and managerial leadership. He successfully guided the boards of over one hundred organizations. He’s, lead consultant for the united way boards, serve new york city board training program and his past chair of governance matters he’s on the non-profit faculties at new school university and adelphi university. He’s been a peace corps volunteer and assistant district attorney here in new york city and then attorney in private practice, you’ll find michael at board coach dot com michael, welcome back. Thank you very much, tony. Good to be back here. My pleasure. And as i said, our three hundred fiftieth is coming up july twenty eighth and you were on the very first show when it was called twenty martignetti show flies with fun. It was called the tony martignetti show. We don’t even know what we were doing. And dr brett carrie is also with us. He is a physical therapist in hawaii. His board service began at eighteen with the march of dimes in virginia. At twenty five, he was inducted into the march of dimes hall of fame. He chairs the board at west hawaii community health center network. You’ll find him at d. R, for doctor he’s at d r. Brett, carrie, welcome, brett. Carrie. Bret cerini a little tony. Good morning. How are you doing? Aloha to you. Good to talk to you. Where are you? In there. Why were you calling from? So i am actually on the kona coast of the big island on the kona coast. Alright. Cool. Where’s the kona coast bilich chronicle? Yes, on the west side of the island of hawaii. So the east side is where all the volcanoes are and the west side of the dry, very arid side. Okay, now we have a little, uh, sounds like wear a little radio background or something. I know. Is that our thing? Sam it’s our thing? Okay? Its not you, brett. Sorry. Sorry about that. Um, welcome. We haven’t. We haven’t had a guest from off the mainland yet. We’ve neither had onalaska nor hawaii guest before today. So you’re our first welcome. Great. Great. Well, i’m proud to be the first. I’m so glad. And i’m so glad you came to me with the idea of, well, millennials on boards, but actually, teenagers on boards. You started it. Eighteen. How did that come about? Yeah. So how that started is at age seventeen, i was a lifeguard. And i was a sponsored surfer, and so as a surfer, i had different endorsement, and i came up with the idea that i should use my sponsorship. Teo, do something good. So i started looking at different charities to get involved with, and i found the march of dimes, and what i liked about the march of dimes in particular was they had a long tradition of very positive views, involvement, dating all the way back to the polio days of having young people actually go out and collect dimes. And so i approached the marcher done and said i wanted to a fundraiser to benefit your organization, and, ah, a couple of weeks later came back with a bucket of very damp checks in dollar bills that totaled around ten thousand dollars. And then shortly after that, when i turned eighteen, they asked me if i’d be interested and joining the board and you you took it on quite willingly. You were quick. I did, i did so at the time, my main goal of being a boardmember was probably stay on the same packet of the board, you know, board back is everyone else. I was very nervous? Uh, very young at that age, but, uh, luckily, the leadership of our regional board in hampton roads dahna something within me that they thought was work developing. So when they asked me to be part of authority, i was very excited. Okay? And how did it go? How did it go with the outset? Pretty well, where what we’re saying at the time? This is all the way back in two thousand two. Was that there’s a lot of college fund raisers around the country really doing quite well, there’s college fund raisers that are raising over five hundred thousand a year, some over million annually, and think of that time different non-profits were really, really starting to look at the value of young people. And so i was brought on to give that perspective into the youth and college world, and yeah, i was well supported by her board. I did have some good mentors and began to feel really comfortable as a boardmember. Okay, let’s. Bring michael in. Michael what’s your respective on a on an eighteen year old on a board, i think he’s fantastic. I mean, i think a couple of things that number one. A lot of organizations are, in fact, doing what you you know what you’ve described, which is bringing on groups of younger people, mostly toe work on fund-raising. But i’d be really interested in how you got involved with the other aspects of being on the board. Besides the fund-raising. I mean, what was that like to an eighteen year old to be looking at? Organizational finance review of the executive director. Compliance issues those kinds of things that you get involved on the governance end of things as well as on the fund-raising now, let me just remind michael hasn’t been here for over three hundred shows, so he’s he’s become an anarchist in this time asking the questions that no, happy to have a conversation. Now i ask the questions here. Obs are you know, i hope you realize i’m picking on a kid star occasionally welcome. So now, please go ahead. Michael. Yeah, i wouldn’t know. Yeah, yeah, i’d be interested in that perspective. Bright. How did you get involved in that part of it? Especially the reviewing, like, reviewing the ceo performance on eighteen year old reviewing. Ah, ceo. What was all that, like, your excellent. Thank you, michael. Right, right. Those are great questions. And so i was a regular boating boardmember just like all the other board members. So i did have so the rights and privileges for reviewing all the financial statements as well as reviewing our director performance. So when and if i ever felt uncomfortable, something i did have the opportunity to recuse myself from a vote. But for the most part, with the active mentor in had with the explanations that was given before the regularly scheduled board meeting. I felt pretty comfortable, especially with getting the board package normally a week ahead of time had plenty of time to look up any information that i thought i needed to make a good decision. Okay, okay, we’re goingto go out for our first break, and when we come back, of course michael and brett, now i’m going to keep flushing out this issue and we got a live listener love stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. Oppcoll welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I feel like kicking off with a little live listener love. We’re going to start domestic here. Uh, right. New york, new york. Got multiple new york, new york. I love it. Love it. Bayonne, new jersey. Just across the bridge and in between new york, new york and bone got staten island live. Listen, our love to each of you also woodbridge, new jersey. Tampa, florida. Brookline, massachusetts. And that looks like all that’s. Okay, domestic. So far, we’ve got hawaii too. But i suspect that that maybe bread. Because it’s ah, kahlua kona, hawaii. Is that you, brett? That may. Okay. Well, live listen, love live lesser love to each of you and the podcast pleasantries in the affiliate affections. Definitely coming. Second half. Never forget the podcast. Pleasantries or affiliate affections. Okay, um, you said you felt pretty well. Pretty well supported. Brett, you mentioned having mentors. They assign you a mentor because you were eighteen years old or everybody on the board gets a mentor. I would say i would say yes. No to that question where i was assigned a mentor, primarily because it was my first board experience, so, um, even new board members that were let’s say in their fifties, if they didn’t have previous board experience or had questions, they were also assigned mentors as well, okay, you were treated equally then. All right, all right. Um, assume michael hijacked the show, so i’m a little out of sorts now, right now, that’s it no, but it’s fine, of course. My michael let’s, go to you for a threshold question. What might this not even be appropriate for your board? Or or could you see a circumstance where i mean, just basically every board should consider having someone? Maybe not eighteen, but ah, millennial on yeah, i absolutely, i mean, eighteen is a little pushing it. But, you know, for organizations, for example, that a youth serving organizations, it is very hopeful, tohave a really young person on the board or brings that brings that perspective, but other than that, i think i work with a lot of millennials coming onto boards, that’s part of what i’m doing in the united way training and and and they’re wonderful on boards. The interesting challenge, though, is different work styles that they they used crime in very different ways, and sometime that creates are kind of a culture, not much of a conflict, but a culture difference in older boardmember okay, potential now now. All right, so that’s ah, yeah, a couple of things there. I mean, that’s an easy example if they’re if they’re serving a millennial community or youth community, then clearly you want to have the but suppose they’re serving an elder community? Yes, absolutely. Still, yeah. Still, because they bring a different perspective. They bring a very different perspective about communication. They bring a different perspective about what’s going on in the world now and the on any kind of organisation. The area where i find it’s most interesting is different work styles. You know, people of my generation in your suit, tony, you know, we used to face to face meetings. We said, why would people we talk? We hang out, right? Yeah, they’re not used to face to face meetings. They want to do things over the phone. They want to do him by videoconference. They work a lot faster and a lot more focused. And so there’s a kind of a culture thing. When when? They’re working together with older people on the board, but ultimately it works, but it creates a bit of a conflict. Alright, brett, did you see that culture, culture let’s not call it a culture conflict that you felt the cultural differences? I’m sure across across the different generations you were working with? Absolutely, and i see that even today sabat currently has my role of four, chairman of the west dwight community health center, and so what i’ve had to dio because, yes, we have board members in their seventies, too are not used two elektronik communications. So what we’ve done is we’ve decided what committee meetings make sense for what form of communication and what i mean by that is there’s some committee meetings where all we’re doing is reviewing information. And so those meetings it’s very easy, tio do through email, whereas perhaps the finance committee where there’s there’s a lot of explanations and understanding that have to happen within the term sheets, we’ve decided that those interactions are best done in person. And so as a board, we’ve come up with a consensus that stratified across different generations, that seems to be working pretty well o k interesting, cool, cool thing. You’re smart paris more. Okay, what about recruiting? Bret how would you recommend if we want to look for potential millennial members for our board? Where would where would we start to look? Sure, sure, i would think the best way it’s actually more passive recruiting where if you’re lucky enough, do you have a young individual come up to your boarder your organization and tell their story and say they want to be a part of the organization? Usually the conversion rate on those individuals into successful four members? Or perhaps a youth advisory council member i think is high, but otherwise to be to have a bit more of an active strategy, i think looking at perhaps student body president, individuals who have been involved in college organizations have shown some sort of leadership potential, and if you’re lucky enough to live in a college town, that should be pretty easy to have one of your staff for board members actually go teo a college club and give their talk about what your organization’s about and see if he’s interested. I can’t get any thoughts on recruiting. What have you seen your clients? Doing yeah, another. Another good outlet is volunteers. People who are have been recruited to be volunteers very often from corporations who maybe who maybe financial partners with the organizational contributes to the organization. They want their younger people tohave volunteer opportunities and the people than that service volunteers. You could get a sense from them. Of the people that are really committed would take on, for example, volunteer leadership roles who come back repeatedly, the volunteer and they’re a great source off potential board members. Okay, i think i remember on i’ve seen your writing to you like the idea of having ah, mentor for new board members, right colleague, another another boardmember as a mentor, and actually i think it applies to every boardmember even those that have been on other boards, and sometimes especially those it could have been another board’s going because they come thinking that they know everything that they’re supposed to know. And so you really wanna have them introduced into the specific culture of your organization and your board. So many organizations now that i know of, will have a mentor for every new boardmember irrespective of their prior experience, what about keeping? These younger boardmember is engaged ongoing basis now, after they’re on boarded well, that that’s a challenge not just for younger board members. It’s a challenge for all board members and one of the things that happens is lots of organizations don’t pay attention to exactly that question, tony and for example, they lose boardmember is very quickly lose touch with the mission, so they got attracted to the organization because of what it was doing programmatically, and then they no longer have any contact with what it’s doing programmatic, they come to board meetings and they meet with other board members, so organizations now do things to make sure that the board members keep some degree of contact with the mission, either by visiting programs, talking to clients, talking to staff or even bringing clients and staff into the board meeting so that they’re constantly refreshed with what’s this all about yeah, that’s what’s an important thing for that. I’ve heard that recommendation a bunch of times from from you and other guests do brett, i’m going to guess it warms your heart a bit that we’re we’re not focusing on what specific teo millennial board members that has. To be done differently, but rather, like michael is saying, these are things that apply to all board members, whether it’s engagement or having a mentor, i love that approach, ok? Absolutely don’t wantto segment you out waken treat you as if we treat all other board members. The teenage thing really, really gets me. I mean, that was that was pretty courageous of that. The local virginia march of dimes to invite an eighteen year old to the board a zoo. Michael what you perspective on that? I think it was courageous, but i think at the same time, it was really very smart. I mean, they saw somebody with energy. They knew how that person could be used. And i assume they figured, brett, you were smart enough to learn what you needed to learn. And they saw a great opportunity. They’re very smart. They weren’t stuck in a kind of a mold. This is what our board members need to look like. They were open for opportunity and for energy to bring new things in. So i think was very courageous of the organization is very smart. What’s that line from top gun. Gutsiest move i ever saw, which may be dating a za boomer. But i’m a young boomer. I’m young. Okay. Let’s. Brett, any any problems you encountered? You be as specific as you can. Difficulties? You recall from being an eighteen nineteen year old boardmember? Sure, i would say the biggest problem. And this comes up on your show all the time. It’s the jargon that gets thrown around, uh, jargon jail. Yeah. Yeah. Eso every organization very much benefit from having jargon. Jail because it’s very easy as a new boardmember tio here. A lot of jargon cannot know what it means to be embarrassed. Teo either ask the question or to become a little more reclusive and withdrawn once you feel like you don’t know what’s going on the board meeting? Yeah, how many times can you raise your hand and say, what does that mean? What, what? That acronym right becomes becomes difficult. Michael that’s a really interesting point about board members. Kind of feeling embarrassed to ask questions. And one of the things that many organizations do now is they add at the end of a board meeting, an executive session and the executive session has those staff in the room and it’s just the board members and it’s an opportunity to say whatever might have been on your mind that for whatever reason, you might have been reluctant to say, and so and that’s always a good opportunity for people to ask the questions that they think might be regarded as dumb questions. So it’s a it’s, a it’s, a structural thing that board’s khun due to get past that. But then you’re still sitting with your fellow board colleagues. Yeah, but is it likely you’re old? You still got the seventy two year old in the room? Yeah, but but somehow, without the staff in the room, it’s a little easier, it feels more informal. Okay, brett, you taking on anything like that? Or did you just cum it yourself? You know, how did you work this out? Oh, certainly, there were certainly some embarrassing moments, but i think michael’s right without staff in the room, sometimes things are a little easier, but that being said, a lot of times, there are boardmember that you’ll feel more or less comfortable asking questions to create understanding about. So yeah, i definitely have the moments where, you know, i felt a little embarrassed are i wanted to know more information, but again, i think that goes with any new boardmember to where, you know, even if you’re an individual in your fifties, maybe you haven’t had experience with human resource is with finance with fund-raising and so most of the time, when you recruit new board members there’s going to be situations where they feel a little uncomfortable, so i think that’s just important to recognize when recruiting any new boardmember okay, okay, um, michael, have you seen where boards will will recruit management from west where organizations will recruit management from the boards? Is that a is this a possibility that you might be a millennial might become the next ceo or ceo? It happens, it’s not a great idea because you really don’t want your board members looking at their board position as a as a potential personal career ladder, because then, if that if that becomes a possibility of the organization, they’re going to behave differently, and they’re going to be looking at the board position from a personal point of view. And so occasionally it happens, but it really is rare, it’s not something that happens very common, and the only time it sometimes happens is if a longtime executive director. Is stepping down and there’s nobody immediately available to fill in, and then maybe a boardmember might step in on an interim basis, but even that is not a great idea. So in general, board members don’t do that, and in general organizations don’t encourage it. Yeah, okay. All right. Bret you have any perspective on that? Sure. Where i agree with michael. Where? Through a succession plan succession plan. You might see that you might see, you know, a board chairman temporarily serve as an interim ceo, but, um, i would say also in rural areas like out here in hawaii, it’s probably a little more common for individuals to g o from aboard role to a staff role, but that’s purely out of necessity, we’re in a rural area like this, especially where it’s very hard to find someone with five year work history in a way, or even a ten year work history that probably more often than two more urban area, you will see boardmember going on and serving the staff members. But i completely agree with michael where you don’t want to set that up as an expectation toe where someone starts changing their views. Or use their role of boardmember differently, you know, they start auditioning to be the next ceo. Yeah, okay, getting at zoho on ah, a job interview almost on there being evaluated for that. Okay, okay, now the average board ages is about sixty eight and ah, and we have less than about two percent of boardmember zehr are under thirty, which is the millennial means not for money or cut off, but it sze close. Brett, you’re, uh you’re obviously encouraging greater age diversity, right? Absolutely, absolutely. Where we look at boardmember ship and a lot of time, ethnicity and gender are giving great priority, which they should be. But we should add aged ever see that as well? Millennials are now the largest generation to that was a pew research center early last year, like march or april of last year declared that they now outnumber baby boomers. Michael, you and i are under threat way r yeah, andi, i know. And you’re in your you also agree with the idea of greater age diversity? Absolutely. It brings in different perspectives. But whatever we talked about, yeah, we got, like, another two minutes or so. What else? You want to not necessarily leave people with but the things that we haven’t talked, something we haven’t talked about yet? You want to you want explain? Sure, sure i would. I would say that board should have a conversation about potential versus experience and what i mean by that is we’re in the air, the mark zuckerberg. So the world. So where you’re seeing young people do phenomenal, phenomenal things who ever thought we would have a twenty six year old billionaire? And in addition to being a physical therapist, i also create rehab fitness app so smartphone applications and when i go into different tech conferences, it’s amazing to see the value that different tech companies are putting in the young people, very young people sometimes eighteen, twenty years old, and i would suggest that perhaps the fund-raising and non-profit world can look at millennials and younger people in the same way that the technology industry has. So as a physical therapist, you see people’s potential. I love that, and you want to and on board, you want to balance that potential with experience? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, michael, final word. Thirty seconds or so. I’m right there with you. Bret that’s. Really interesting. The only thing is, i mean, it’s a much harder job to to read potential than to read a experiences is very it’s. Not a resume is on a resume, right? But i think you’re absolutely right. That is what we should be looking at is the potential and the march of dimes. And where was it in virginia? Brett hawaii. In the virginia beach area. You beach. They identified it. So it’s, it’s, it’s, eminently doable. We got to leave it there. Brett gary, physical therapist in hawaii. You can follow him at d r brett, carrie and michael davidson. Bored coach, you’ll find him at board. Coach dot com gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you. Nice talking to you, brett. Pleasure. All right, take care. What do we have coming up? We’ve got crazy. Good turns coming up with bradshaw were going a little fun with this former home depot. See? Sweeter now with a with a dot org’s. Um, first pursuant, enormously rich re sources that are all free. Whether you hear me talk about week after week, whether it’s, webinars, resource papers, white papers, the other content that they have archives that they’ve got i’m just encourage you to check out pursuing dot com for the webinars for the for the for the content papers, click through and they just have a wealth of free resource is they are they’re they’re engaged in fund-raising they’ve got research on fund-raising you need to raise more money, i think you’ll find the resource is at pursuing dot com valuable and we be spelling you know them super cool spelling bee fundraisers and we’re obviously we’re just talking about millennials and engaging millennials. Maybe before they come before i become boardmember sze don’t want to check you out and what better way to check you out? Then? A spelling bee fundraiser bret was a fundraiser for the virginia beach march of dimes. Now you might do it as a as a knight of spelling and live like stand up comedy and live music and dance it’s a night devoted to fund-raising for your organization, check out the video at we be spelling dot com and then pick up the phone for pete’s sake pick up my voice cracked alot i hate it when i love it! Talk to the ceo, alex greer set up a night of spelling bee fund-raising for you now time for tony’s, take two summer is here, and i want you to take care of your self to get away from your work. Phone, email, social texts out of the office with you, get out! I did not have a video last week because i was taking time off for myself. Now i do have a video, so but that doesn’t mean that you take time off, and then you work twice as hard the following week. I’m not. I’m not suggesting that either it’s, like, don’t get carried away, but i do have a video. It’s got advice. It’s got some drinks, suggestions, it’s, too good to drink tips in there and, uh, an admonition for napping. Check out the video it’s at tony martignetti dot com. Please take care of yourself this summer, that is tony’s. Take two. My next guest is bradshaw he’s, the host and co creator of crazy good turns podcast telling stories about people who do amazing work for others. He’s been the chief communications officer at pepsico gateway and most recently, home depot, where he reported directly to three ceos during his more than ten years there, he’s been on the boards of the point of light foundation, ken’s crew kaboom and the metro atlanta area council of the boy scouts of america. You’ll find the show at crazy good turns dot or ge and at crazy good turns welcome bradshaw. Hey, tony how’s it going, it’s. Really great. How you doing? Down in atlanta? Uh, good. It’s a beautiful day here. Not too hot. It’s. Uh, just a stunning spring day. I’m glad i’m glad you’re okay. I’m glad you have good weather. Let’s. Get past the weather. You know, that’s, the basic everybody could talk about the weather, right? We all have that in common. So let’s, talk about this crazy good turns your co founder of this podcast, uh, frank blake was the former ceo of home depot. Correct? All right, so so this’s. An interesting mix. Tio two high. Level c sweeteners at home depot. I don’t know what you’re trying to atone for the for what you brought on the humanity as a cz corporate raiders waiting this right in my way. I like to think we did a lot of good in the world through home depot. And i will say that our experience there is actually what led us to do crazy. Get turns. And you want me to give you the back story on that? Yeah. If i could just starting just a tad. I know you were doing videos for home depot employees, right? Yeah. I mean, that was one of many ways that we communicated with over half a million employees across the country. That’s correct. So storytelling was part of how we communicated at home depot, both frank and me. And as you said, i’ve reported directly to frank, who was running the company, and clearly, storytelling and communication was critical in his mind to motivating, as i said, that half a million employees. Yeah. All right. So we see the sea, the qualifications you wanted. Your both are retired now from home depot. Is that right? Yeah. We both retired in the spring of two thousand fifteen. Okay, so wealthy okay, did well did well, home depot, we’ll leave it there. I won’t get carried away. Um, and so now e-giving back. And how you doing that through crazy good turns. Well, what? Uh, fundez over coffee. Frank and i were talking and discussing what we might be ableto do together post home depot. And he made the point that i just made, which was in the end, what we did really well, we’ll tell stories, let’s, figure out a way to do it for the greater good. And it was frank idea tio basically focused on non-profits we both worked with a number of non-profits at home depot, iran, our foundation and all of our corporate giving. And frank was obviously closely involved with that. So we got to know quite a number of non-profits would really cool back stories. And we said rather than just focus on what they’re doing and the good work they’re doing let’s focus on that sort of compelling backstory of their founding. And what inspired that founder to create that non-profit and that’s what crazy good turns us. It’s a roughly twenty minute podcast that’s a voiceover narrative, not just a q and a that set the music and tell the compelling backstories of non-profits let’s not be too critical of the q and a format. Okay, i wasn’t critical, so i was differentiate. Okay, okay. No, that’s. All right, i did see that i have to talk. You know, i was looking at you up and i did see some quotes in the atlanta journal constitution. Ah, but you’re fairly differentiating from from the format that i have on non-profit radio. Sure. Although i’ll tell you one thing, tony, we are looking at supplementing that narrative format with some possible cubine a content as well down the road, you know, we’re still young, we’re still growing. Ah, and that could be a path that we take in addition to the narratives we tell you’re in your second season now, is that right? That’s correct. Halfway through a second season. Okay. And ah, how often are you publishing? Every other week? Okay, we’re on a brief hiatus now till july. We’re just taking a little summer break and then we’ll be back in the lead after the july fourth holiday. Yes, very nice. I saw that nothing, nothing this month, but coming back after july fourth, we’re taking your advice t get out during the summer, which is what we’re doing. Okay, very good. Um, you are you get your how many listeners how you doing listenership so far? Second season midway through? Yeah, we’re right now pacing and over six thousand downloads a month, which for a podcast our size with no notoriety in terms of a celebrity host is pretty good. We’re ahead of the curve. Ultimately, we want to scale to a size where we can sell ads and get sponsors and will remain a non-profit we are non-profit, by the way, funded by frank’s family foundation, and we’d remain a non-profit if we become profitable, but we’ll push those profits back to the non-profits way feature so it’s a it’s, a pretty innovative model of fund-raising through storytelling if we can just keep growing now, as the as the host of producer of ah self-funding podcast, i got to say you’re, you know you’re in a very enviable spot where you’ve got a foundation helping you out. It is true, very fortunate to have the resource is that we do. Thanks to frank in a family foundation. It’s it’s. A blessing compared to a lot of other podcast. Start up. Interesting. So you count. I guess this is a little inside baseball, but but but you count downloads per month. I never i never counted that way. I was looking listeners per week. I mean, i could say, like, sixty five thousand downloads a month or something like that. Yeah, i never i never had. And i never looked at the number that big. I mean, i look at it, but then i divided by the number of show’s in a month and that’s how i get listeners per week, right? And i can, you know, we can see by weak as well, but and? And you know this well, when you, when you release new episodes, you see spikes with the automatic download on itunes that elsewhere? Yes. I’ve heard rumors to that effect. Right. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, but okay, interesting, because i could see, like, sixty five. All right, so, um, i’m not trying to be competitive, but you just you piqued my interest. Cause i never counted it that way. You got you got some? Very interesting stories can we can we talk about the the organization that helps the people who are living in the storm tunnels below las vegas? Yeah, that’s called shine a light and that’s that’s an interesting story. And it’s it’s basically one guy in las vegas, it’s not even an organization or non-profit it’s just one guy doing great work. He was a writer in las vegas who stumbled on the fact that there are three to four hundred homeless people living in the storm drains in las vegas, and he decided to just help him and that’s what he does, and it connects him with relief agencies, and secures donations for them. It’s uh, a cool story and it’s, one of those there’s there’s a number of stories that we tell that air really sense of discovery. You come away and say, wow, i didn’t even know that was an issue or ah, cause that i could actually look at maybe contribute to yeah, that wouldn’t move me, especially because what? You just said it za solo guy. Oh, and he hasn’t scaled it up. I mean, he’s got volunteers and things, but but he’s just he got moved. By the piece that he wrote for the i guess i gather it’s an alternative paper in latto rittereiser and ah, just even as a journalist he got he got so involved with the personal story that he had to help the people he was he had just covered. Yep. Moving. Moving so that i mean that’s, you know, that’s the beauty of what you guys are doing that that we’re not doing here on non-profit radio well, that i mean, we are trying to tell inspirational tales in the hopes of motivating others to do good things for other people. And even if it’s not starting a non-profit if it’s just holding the door open for someone one day, i mean it’s there’s, a lot of good that can be done in the world and that’s what we focus on and hopefully we’re an antidote to a lot of the nastiness in the world today. We were just talking about the eighteen year old boardmember let’s talk about the story that you you covered you of the ten year old founder riley pack? Yeah, right again. She’s amazing. Yeah. So she started that, you know, there are a number. Of organizations out there that gives school supplies to poor children, but the fact that this was founded by a ten year old she’s sixteen now was just remarkable to us. And when you, when you hear the episode as i’m sure you have, you come away so impressed at the complexity of her world view and her ability to actually marshall resource is to solve a problem at the age of ten it’s pretty incredible. Yeah, i again another moving one. What are you looking for, brad as your as your vetting the stories for for the podcast? Well, it’s it’s a great question, tony, because we get a lot of submission through a website that, frankly, we appreciate the submissions but can’t cover them all in frankly, wouldn’t what we’re looking for is just a compelling story. So what we tell everyone is all non-profits by definition, you khun say do good work, but do they have a good story? And so we always do a pre interview with the founder or someone on the founder’s staff to just sort of stress test what that backstory is, are there some interesting twists and turns in that person’s life? That maybe aren’t on the website or in any of the previous media coverage. And so we try to teach those out during the pre interview process so that when we go into it, we know that we’ve got a compelling story line before we even do the interview. Music is also important to your show. It is? Yeah. I mean, it’s it it it is an important part of the whole aural experience for us. And, you know, it brings a richness and sound and just way think, ah, highly polished professional product in the end. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, i noticed you have a you have a grant contest for radio for fifty thousand dollars. This is you got fifty thousand dollars to give tio one of your one of the charities you chronicle. This is that xero yeah. That’s. Right. And again, this is the generosity of frank. I mean, he gave a twenty five thousand dollar grant at the end of last year’s season, which we gave the team rubicon. That was our premiere episode this year. We wanted to just put a little bit of sort of soft criteria around it to say, hey, we want to get back to the non-profit that we feature, who does the most to help spread the word about crazy good turns through their social networks through their email blasts and just their overall dissemination of their episode? And so we’re just, you know, walking along this this season, keeping an eye on how people are helping promote crazy good terms and at the end of the season will give one of those non-profits fifty thousand dollar grant thanks, frank. Yeah, well, bravo, brad, i mean, you’re you got a bunch of organizations now stepping up their their social media and other games to help you promote the show and for the one that does the best there’s a nice fifty thousand dollar gift that’s yeah, that’s and i mean, you think about it, some of the non-profits we cover are very, very small and something like a fifty thousand dollar grant is an important grant to a non-profit of any size, but it could be game changing to one of the smaller ones if they should get it. Yeah, now, what about the musicians you’re i feel like i feel like you’re shortchanging the musicians because because those air all done gratis. They are on dh, so, yeah, they basically donate their songs to us, uh, to score the show itself on dh way went into it, saying it would be a nice vehicle to actually provide some music discovery as well. And that’s, that’s, certainly part of what we’ve been doing. Okay, we’re going to take our takeout break when we come back. Brad, i’m going to continue talking about crazy good turns podcast and how you submit and a little more detail about what they’re looking for. And, ah, a couple of other stories stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon, craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked and they only levine from new york universities heimans center on philantech tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard, you can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guest directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. Lively conversation. Top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige, no knee author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent let’s, continue with that live listener love! We’ve had more people check in from new bern, north carolina and texas, texas we can’t see your city’s fremery masked in texas don’t know why, but welcome to the broadcast on dh, then let’s go abroad. We’ve got a lot of a lot of listeners abroad starting in germany, guten tag and also seoul, south korea, always always loyal listeners in seoul, thank you so much on your haserot comes a ham nida, ukraine! Ukraine is with us. We cannot see your city, but we know you’re there live list their love to you also, knox are in malta, mexico city, mexico bring a star days, el hadi dahna morocco live listener loved to you and team gear morocco to for two are they neighboring cities? I don’t know, barocco, welcome live listen love to you, and we’ve got to do on the heels of that. Of course, going the podcast pleasantries did i just say plod? Cast the podcast pleasantries come to the over twelve thousand listeners each week, whatever your task you’re doing while you’re listening whatever device whatever time, thank you so much for being with us means a lot. Thank you. Pleasantries to the podcast audience and the affiliate affections are am and fm listeners throughout the country. We’re gonna have some kind of a couple of new am fm affiliates to announce in the next couple weeks or so just tryingto close those up. Wrap those up, but we’ve got a couple new ones coming up so glad that you’re station fits non-profit radio into its schedule affections to our affiliate listeners. Bradshaw i got it. I got to send out the love. So thank you for hanging on while i do that. No problem let’s talk a little more about the submission process get can you can you be a little more detailed for the organizations that would like to submit about what it is you’re looking for in that compelling backstory? Sure, uh, if you go to our website, which is crazy, good turns dot or ge on, just scroll down toward the bottom of the landing page. You’ll see a little box that says, tell us a story and if you click on that it’s just an automatic email that you can fill out and send to us and we read everyone, uh, replied all and as i said before, we ask you to really tell us what is that compelling backstory in addition to what the non-profit does on dh it’s work and it’s focus and cause so sometimes that doesn’t necessarily confirming the e mail, but it looks like an organisation that eyes interesting to us. Then we’ll pick up the phone and talk to someone to try to get more details. Well, okay, all right, so cool. You’re you’re investigating investigative investigative journalists? Yeah, sort of. Okay. We’re not looking to blow the lid off. No, no, no. Yes. All in a positive. All in a positive light. Okay, um, i guess and the best way to highlight some of these interesting back stories is to is to talk about a few of them here. Let’s, let’s talk about team rubicon, which you mentioned. What? I guess i’m going to blow the headline for you. But what compelled me about this one was there was a comment about the addiction of war. Yeah, that’s. That was the first question that we featured in that episode when i ask jake can you miss war? And he didn’t skip a beat he’s, a former marine who was the co founder of team rubicon, which, for your listeners deployed veterans to disaster relief areas. It’s a it’s a really cool, well run, terrific at marketing organization, and jake would is the founder on dh is just one of the most interesting philanthropists out there today. They do just a fantastic job, they’re working, they’re helping vets by sort of tapping into the one of the adrenaline that they’re not getting in there daily routine back here in the states after they’ve left the service, and then they’re also helping victims of tragic, natural natural disasters. That’s, right, it’s a win win and i would say, in addition, that tapping into the the adrenaline which which jake describes well, he also goes to great lengths rightfully so, to talk about veterans commitment, the service in general, you know, you think about it, they they voluntarily joined whatever armed services branch they did, and by nature, their service minded and when they, when they leave the service and come home, sometimes there’s a pretty big void you need to fill in terms of service. To others and this’s a great way to do it into your point. It helps those victims and disaster stricken areas as well. You do your show from a studio. Is that right? Won a radio studio in atlanta? Yeah, we do. We are audio engineer is a gentleman named steven key who is a a m d j here in town. And sixteen. Ninety, uh, is the station and they very graciously loan us their studio when it’s not used. So we do all the interviews from there. We do the voice overs from there as well. Do you always have people come to the studio? Are they’re calling into? I’d say it’s about half and half when they do call in. We asked that they go to a studio so we can capture their audio and high quality. And, uh, and then we mix it after okay. Yeah, you do. Yeah. It it’s heavily produced, which is, is a different sort of format for then. A lot of the non-profit podcast that are out there correct. That’s? Correct. Yeah. That’s, you know, and by the way, purposely wanted it to appeal more broadly beyond just the non-profit sector. Clearly that’s a big target audience for us, for all the obvious reasons, but we know that a lot of our listeners aren’t affiliated with a non-profit or maybe they give to some but aren’t really in the world of non-profits and we wanted it to have broader appeal with just great stories about people doing amazing things for others. Yeah, for sure i mean, you’re you’re you’re you have terrific, i think commercialization potential too, because the audience is really the whole, the whole country that’s what we’re hoping we just need thio keep getting the word out and keep growing. Okay, well, if we can help you while we are helping you, you are you are you people let’s talk about another one that i thought was interesting, so i’m making it all about me. I didn’t even ask you which ones you thought were interesting. Maybe i should throw it to you. Is that why don’t you? So i did not listen to every single episode, so i don’t have the the breath that you have let me toss it to you, what’s one of the stories you cover that that sticks out ah, one of the ones that’s. My personal favorite, is, uh, stephen siller tunnel to towers. And that was one of our early episodes in our first season last year. And again, i mean it’s it’s, the backstory that makes it so compelling. Uh, stephen siller was a fireman in new york who, uh, i was off duty on nine eleven and grabbed all of his gear and drove as far as he could get that close to the towers as he could get ran across a bridge with his gear, ran into one of the towers and family collapsed and he died. His brother got him. Frank siller uh, took up the cause of veterans who have been catastrophically injured and decided the launch of a non-profit called tunnel the towers, and it basically built smart homes for catastrophically wounded vets. And one of those is a guy named top love who was a former marine. Who’s, a triple amputee. And we did that interview, actually in the house that frank sylar’s organization built for him. And it was just and todd’s a great interview. Frank’s a great interview. It’s just a great illustration of that really compelling backstory that brings the work. Together in a really insightful way, a lot of new yorkers know that story because the frank’s brother was in brooklyn and that’s, right? You had to run through the brooklyn battery tunnel. That and that, and i’ve run that i ran that that five k. Once you run, you run the path that he took that’s exactly right from brooklyn through the book of battery tunnel to get. And then it ends at the tower of what ends at the site of the former towers. Yeah, yeah, and again, this is one of the organizations in team rubicon that frank and i got to know so well through home depot because we were one of their largest funders, both tunnel to towers and on team rubicon when we were at home depot. Okay, cool. All right. If you have just, like, a minute left or so brad, what what should we leave people with? I mean, i’m certainly going to leave them with your girl, so you don’t have to say that again. What do you want to leave people with about crazy good turns? Well, we need more stories we always do. And you know, we’ve got plenty in the pipeline for the balance of the season, but we’re always on the lookout for compelling stories of people doing amazing work for others. So please do send him our way because we we love to see what’s going on out there and hopefully feature a few. Okay, we’ll leave it there. Bradshaw hosting co creator of crazy good turns podcast. You’ll find them at crazy good turns dot or ge and at crazy good turns brad’s so much. Thank you very much and good wishes. Good luck. Thank you, tony. Thanks so much for the time. Real pleasure. Thank you. Care. Next week, jonathan lewis is going to return to the show with his new book, the unfinished social entrepreneur. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com. Responsive by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers, we b e spelling dot com. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam leaving, which is the line producer. Betty mcardle is our am and fm outreach director. The show’s social media is by susan chavez, and this cool music is by scots. Time you with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio pony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark insights orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing so you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to dio they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones. Me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address card. It was like it was phone. This email thing is right and that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gifts. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts. Tony talked to him. Yeah, you know, i just i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It sze, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just do it. You put money on a situation expected to hell. You put money in a situation and invested and expect it to grow and savvy advice for success from eric sacristan. What separates those who achieve from those who do not is in direct proportion to one’s ability to ask others for help. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent.

Nonprofit Radio for November 13, 2015: Your Engaged Board & In-Kind Gifts

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We’ve got a listener of the week. Congratulations, michelle clan in boulder, colorado. She tweeted that she’s challenging her board toe listen to six shows before their next board meeting. I love that non-profit radio is helping michelle’s board, and i hope they’re gonna listen to this week’s show very relevant about boards. Congratulations, michelle clan non-profit radios listener of the week i’m glad you’re with me i’d be forced to endure bronco candid i assists if i inhaled the idea that you missed today’s show you’re engaged board michael davidson says you’re boardmember zehr happiest when you ask them to do more, not less, he tackles how to recruit and maintain the engaged board. He’s, a consultant and bored coach and former chair of governance matters and in-kind gif ts maria simple, our prospect research contributor and the prospect finder, returns to share her advice about in-kind gif ts how do you find these non-cash gif ts their value and the right appraiser? When do you need an appraiser? Maria answers it all that originally aired on october tenth twenty fourteen between the guests on tony’s take two sincerity still trumps production value responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com very glad, very glad to welcome back michael davidson. He has helped over a hundred boards, has over thirty years, working with non-profit boards and leadership of many organizations. He’s, lead consultant for the united way boards, serve new york city board training program and teaches at the new school university and adelphi university, along with being former chair of governance matters. He’s been an attorney, criminal prosecutor and bakery owner. Those cookies were delicious. His coaching practices at board coach dot com michael davidson, welcome back. Morning, tony. Great to be back. It was you were on. This is really momentous too. May you were on the very first show that’s amazing it was it was july fifth, two thousand ten. And that was back when it was called the tony martignetti show. Yes, i didn’t even think to include non-profits with that it’s it’s about me with that. Um but yeah, so five and a half years ago. That’s amazing and we’re still talking. About board way. We’re always talking about boredom. Would exgagement ford fund-raising yes, you had a block post recently that stimulated mito to think that you need to come back. The engaged board have some traits of unengaged board. Yeah. It’s. Really interesting that the thing that prompted this article was a kind of a ce national study which said that, you know, boards are all committed to the mission, but a very large percentage of them are unengaged and and that’s the reality. I mean, that’s, that’s what? I see boards who people get brought in, they have a great they believe in the mission. Whatever the mission is and their extraordinary number of wonderful missions that people get involved in and they bring him in and they put him on board. But no one quite knows what to do with them and how to really engage them. And i keep looking at that question is i work with boys and for me, it’s thoughts to boil down to this a really simple stuff that i think organizations khun d’oh. The first one is that people get connected because they believe in the mission they want whatever it is, it’s, they always come with passion. They come into a passion for this particular cause whether it’s, you know, helping in greve families or a particular a disease that you know that they think really needs to be addressed or theater or whatever it is, and then they sit him around a table away from the mission. Yeah, and the connection with that mission kind of dissipates into the details ofthe finance and management and oversight and all that kind of stuff, and they get further and further away from the passion. Okay? And so for me, one of the keys is you kind of keep keep him connected with the passion, and there are very simple things that boards do to do that, okay? We’re going. We’re just like overviewing of the you get these three areas of traits of engagement were overviewing them and then we’ll get into detail on great. We’ll come back and hit him each one, so okay, what’s, the what’s, our second engaged board trait that the second one is having high expectations and enforcing those expectations. It’s a job enforcement enforcement like a cop. Okay, but not, you know, good cop, bad cop, good cop. And i can’t marry the cop murray, the cop fremery company on a corner that you know, you know, and it’s making sure that it’s everybody’s clear about what the job is that they agree that they’re going to do the job, and then there’s a process to encourage, supposed to enforcement, encourage and car encourage them to continue doing the job at the best of their level. And the thing that’s really interesting about that is it’s counterintuitive. I got a board executive director ization. Oh, my god. If i asked too much of my boy, the leaf and that’s. Not true, i think it’s totally the reverse. I thinkyou mohr. You ask of people the happy they are okay. In the end, they engaged. All right. Excellent. Well, go into detail on that. And then. Well, the third round. The executive director has responsibility. Absolutely. The executive director’s key, i believe, to the whole process. Too many executive director zoho my god, the board is by boss and i better not push adam and i better not try to tell him what to do because the fire me so i can’t tell them what to do. And that’s totally wrong. T e d is the professional in the room. We all arts board members were all amateurs. Thie edie knows what the organization needs and has. To really serve as a coach for the board behind the scenes, working through the chair, working through the officers, working through the executive committee but always serving as a coach to move the board forward in the direction that the organization needs. You’re coming at this not only as, ah coach on consultant for boards and organizations, but you’ve you’ve been on many boards and you’re on many boards right now. Right now. Two, two alright, i know i know you wouldn’t do it to have been on many in the but yes, ooh now, yeah, yeah. Okay, won’t you shout out ones you’re on? Well, one isn’t really interesting organization and it’s a great story, actually, about boards, it’s going critical community works and we worked to bring theater into schools, and we work to connect schools with theater and all sort of connect kids with a history of their neighborhoods. It’s a very interesting connection between education and theater and arts and history, and we went through a period, actually where we almost closed the doors, the model, the business model was no longer sustainable. Uh, schools no longer had the money to pay for these kinds. Of things in the school to bring kids to plays and things like that because the nature of budgets and we were almost ready to shut down and the board with some great board members really did a very tight analysis of cash flow and of what programmes were sustainable and what programs we’re not sustained. Serious introspection, siri’s introspection with detailed analysis, detailed financial analysis of what? What sustainable and what’s not sustainable. And we cut what’s, not sustainable. And we’re left with a few basic things that are sustainable and i think the organization’s going to revive and it’s a lot of it is his board work with the executive director. And just a minute before our first break what’s the what’s, the other organization, the others. My synagogue board. I’ve been on there for too many years. Okay, like i come off. Come on. I used to be chair. I left for a while. They brought me back. It’s, you know it’s. A community obligation for me. Okay, well, what’s the name of the society for the advancement of judaism run the upper west side napor side of new york city. Okay, there’s, another upper west side. Somewhere in the world. All right, you’re gonna get something. I do enough of this new york centrism. I mean, personally, i’m the center of the universe, and then new york revolves around me, but it’s also, you know, it’s. Another sort of center around. May i do enough of that? So don’t get in trouble. All right? Let’s, go out for this break when we come back, michael and i’m going to keep talking about these three traits of engaged boards and of course, i’ve got live. Listen, love, etcetera, stay with us. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura the chronicle website philanthropy. Dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Okay, michael davidson. Um, let’s, go back to the first part. Now, personal experience. It starts with a personal connection. It’s yours with a personal connection, but you have to maintain we’ve got to keep it up. You got you got you, you’ve got to keep it up. And there are really two very simple things that boards can do to keep it up. One is you bring the mission into every board meeting. So as part of the agenda for every board meeting, you have somebody telling the story. Yeah, either a staff member or a client, someone who comes in to talk about the impact that this program has had online client story lines. I mean, that could be tearful, it’s tearful, and it serves a number of purposes. First, it reinforces the mission connection. But the other thing that it serves when you asking boardmember is to go out and raise money they got have stories to tell, no one’s going to get interested about statistics of a program and the numbers and so on and so forth, right, they’re going to get interested in the impact on dso boardmember sze have got tow have these stories, but what’s important about the way adults remember things right? We don’t remember stuff that we’ve read as well as stuff that we’ve heard. So you have a real person in there talking about a real event versus a couple of paragraphs, there’s just a couple of paralyzing the latest program achievement exactly where so so you do that, then the other side of us, he bring it into the board boot. The other side of it is bringing the board members out to the program. So you build in an expectation, which is we’ll get the expectations, but you build in an expectation that every boardmember has to visit a program twice a year. Shut off to the program, just go there, watch it, talk to people, ask questions, learn about what’s going on and then another expectation is every boardmember is expected after they visited a program to come back to the board and tell this story report their report and so they talk about how they reacted to this. So now you get to results from that right? Number one, it reinforces that you got to go visit program because you don’t want to be the only boardmember who never had a story to number one and number two. Now, i’ve got my story that i heard, and i’ve got your story that you heard from us, and now i’ve got twice as many stories to tell about the organization so it’s two very simple things that maintain the mission connection. And then on top of that, every board meeting you’re hearing a story exactly right so it’s in front of them, not that’s, not a special that’s. Not a special meeting. That’s every every meeting, every meeting. It’s on the ejecta, it’s on the job. Okay, um, yeah, i guess. I mean, you said it, but i want to dive a little deeper with it. The boards tend to lose that. That personal connection, the passion that brought them there turns into a monthly budgetary analysis, staffing levels, competitive analysis. You know which things are important too. But that becomes the sum, the whole thing that’s, right. And that and that’s, when the board members get together and it’s, you know, another part of it which i didn’t quite push in that in that. Article is that it’s about the group it’s about the team part? A big part of what motivates board members is being part of the team. We don’t liketo operate on our own, not we’re not good as human beings. Is that right? We are best in groups. We all know that we do our best. We are best our best selves come out in groups, something some groups not so good. But mostly our best selves come out in groups. And so you want to reinforce that sense of a team at the board meeting? Yeah, so it can’t all be just a little business, and the more you know, the detailed business it’s got to be the big stuff that that we joined together around, and you give people an opportunity to express that as they asked questions from the staff member or the client has come in from the boardmember what had a, you know, a visit that they’re reporting on, and that conversation builds the sense of a team i’m standing. Yeah, sometimes it’s really simple. The emotion comes through that’s, right? And you know, it is it’s about the emotional tony. You’re absolutely right. We were not rational creatures. We are emotional creatures. We will use our rationality to explain emotions that’s good and maybe to control them sometimes, but mostly we way run by our emotions by our sentiments and that’s that driver have we got to pay attention to that? You know, i sought out my professional life is a lawyer. So all the legal stuff about boards, i know it, but i kind of forget it because it’s not as important as the emotional side and we have plenty of guests talking about the legal side. Yeah, yeah. Good genes. Akagi are regular legal contributor, often talking about board the fiduciary obligations, etcetera. Yeah. All right, let’s. Go to the expectations. Yeah. Let me ask you a threshold question. Do you like to see expectations in writing absolute for a perspective board? Absolutely. Coming on the board. Here’s what we expect you got that right? You recruiting me to come on my on your board? I’m asked the first question i ask is so what’s the deal and i want to see it. You know, if it’s just told well you’re supposed to do this, you’re supposed to do that it’s kind. Of vague, right? I want to see it in writing, okay. And seeing it in writing. Well, first of all, to get to that writing. Where do you get to that? Writing from where do you get to that written list of expectations? The board has got to agree to it, you know, like a job description. Yeah, but it doesn’t come from the outside. It’s gotta come from the inside. There’s. No outside authority that can write that. That contract for you, it’s got to come from an agreement on the part of the board members. This is what we expect off ourselves. Okay, so that’s that’s that’s a conversation. So the executive committee works on this are usually, ah, governance committee. So the governance committee would take a look at what? What are the expectations for board members? Come up with what they would propose. Put those on the table, have a conversation with the board and get the board to approve it. The vote on it? Yes. This is this is it. This is what we expect, and they and their very specific, you know, how many board meetings were you expected to attend? Yeah, that every boardmember is expected to serve on a committee the number of side visits, the personal contribution site visits are the program yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the broker was just ok the contribution, how much? Everybody i believe every boardmember should write a check it’s going to be different in different organizations, but they got to demonstrate their old commitment. What’s the expectation for fund-raising you expect around the fund-raising do you ah, like to see all board members have a certain the same minimum? Or is it more tea to your yoga really varies? You know, much bigger organizations that have, you know, museums, theatre groups, and so on they will put in and many others too, if they’re more, um, more mature organization will put in a number five thousand dollars, okay, smaller organizations, they struggle with that our listeners are more small, make it small and many eyes they they struggle with that because they say, look, if i put that hyre number half of my board can’t do that, you know? So what we do with the smaller organizations, for starters, is simply say every boardmember is expected to make a personally significant contribution, so what is personally significant mean, you have to have a conversation about that, and for me, i have a i have a kind of ah rule of thumb, right personally significant means you have to think before you write the check, right? Ok, over the check that you don’t have to think about that’s not significant, right? It’s got to be significant relative to what you do, maybe it’s a hot one of the top three charities or some other standard like that. Once you get it started, then you congratulate inching up overtime, ok, but you started with the notion of it being personally significant, and you like to see this as you said, personal gift not not, give or get it’s, give and get given and given and that’s an injunction conjunction okay, we’re both lawyers do that. So that’s, right, former, former well and happy yeah, i’m happy about it. So, yes, it is, and because i believe every boardmember has got to make a personal commitment, right? And i believe they’re better board members if they’ve got as they say, skin in the game and that they’ve written a check and they’re going to pay more. Attention, because they’re they’re investing in this, and they’re also getting out and are also getting involved in, you know, selling tables for the gala, the gulf, whatever it isyou know all of that kind of work as well, but it’s kind of because they can’t do that work unless they put themselves on the line. You can’t go to your friends and ask him to contribute for the gala because if we’re going to say, i hope you’re what are you doing? Yeah, you know, we dwelled on this. We’re talking about expectations gentle, but we dwelled on fund-raising because i found something that i i was asked to do some board we search some research about boards back when i was an employee is on my st john’s university. No, no letter home where you really saved me. I’m in france, tony from nineteen, ninety seven it was an article i found fund-raising realities every boardmember must face, quote to demonstrate their commitment boardmember sze must first make a generous gift proportionate to their means. End quote nineteen, ninety seven we were still talking about this. We were always told years the same story. Yeah, the dynamics don’t change? Yeah, yeah. Why is that? Because, that’s, the reality of what we’re dealing with, right? We’re dealing with the reality ofthe volunteers with dealing with the reality it’s a uniquely american phenomenon. Okay, we take people ordinary people from all walks of life, right? And we asked them to be responsible for charitable organizations to be the stewards of these organizations, to guide the organizations to support these organizations. It’s a very strange phenomenon. If you think about it, right. When you ask people, you know, i want you to serve on my board. So here’s the deal. Right. Okay, i’m expecting you. Come six meetings a year. I want you to serve on a committee. Okay? I’m asking you to pay for the privilege. And as a bonus, you get to ask your friends for money. Okay? That’s the deal, right? It is, but we do it. So it doesn’t. The dynamics of what make this makes this challenging. Never change. They never change because it is inherently a challenging back-up proposition. Tohave all of our charitable work, all of our non-profit work run by volunteers. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s. A very articulate explanation. That’s. Why it’s the same in nineteen nineties not going to stop lt’s not going eighteen years from now. We have the same conversation. All right? Hopefully we know a little bit more with some or expectations a cz you’re departing the board, you want to know why people leaving? Yeah, and sometimes these conversations are really interesting exit interviews, the exit interviews. So i’ve been involved on on the selection panel for a thing called a non-profit excellence awards non-profit excellence awards, which is award given every year in new york city for excellence and non-profit management. So one of the organizations that we were doing a site visit on this year, i was talking about the fact that one of their very serious major contributors on the board was announcing that he was gonna leave. So one thing is, oh, my god, but, you know, we love you buy or someone sat down with him and said, well, what’s going on tell us why you’re leaving and basically what he said was he says, look, i’ve been on this board for five years, i’ve been on the finance committee for five years, i do finance every day, i’m tired of doing finance. I don’t want to serve on finance anymore, so i’m getting off the board and the chairman said, you don’t have to serve a fine and it’s not the only connection i already committee. What what would you like to be interested in? What would get you interested? And he wanted to serve on the program committee, which worked on the evaluation of programs on their metrics, on their outcomes and things like that? Bingo! He didn’t leave that’s a grand slam grizzly. I didn’t lose the big donor major, but what’s happened. And now he’s happier and the organization hasn’t lost his ten. Now, sometimes in an exit interview, it doesn’t quite work that way when you find out from someone stepping off about the board. What was your experience? What worked for you? What didn’t work for you? How do we how could we make it better? Who does these exit interviews? Ceo. Exactly. Director, i think not. Fellow boardmember fellow boardmember. Yeah, i would. You know, it could be the chair. Yeah. Could be the chair of the governance committee. Is the trouble? Could be with the executive director. That would be the board relationship. Yeah, so? You figure it out, you know, probably the most neutral. If there’s trouble. I mean, there might be trouble. Yeah, but usually the most neutral. Be the chair of the governance committee because that person might be having some trouble with chair of the board. Yeah, you mentioned is governance committee now? Twice. What? That’s? Not a very common committee. It’s more and more common. It is what we expect of our governance committee. Well, it used to be what was the nominating committee. Ah, so it’s job was bored. Recruitment. Now, it’s it’s taken on a larger roll off of the life of the board. So it looks at the by-laws it looks at board procedures. It manages the process of evaluation on which we hadn’t gotten to of board members. Because once you have those expectations, expectations are only useful. If you review and evaluate let’s talk, you know what you mean? That piece of paper, your notes, the guy, the guy wanted his notes at the beginning and handed it to him. And now he’s holding them now into quarters. Not looked at it once. You know this, you know the self atop your head. Give me. The notes back stop fiddling with that. The director is that folded up in the little quarters was gonna rip it up into shreds. Putting his shredder alright board of al u ation. Yeah, so we have expectations. You have expectations, right? So it’s a number of different ways sometimes boardmember typically serve a three year term. That’s who we should like that folk. So sometimes what you do is when the person is coming up for for potential renomination. That’s when you do a review, should this person be nominated again for another term? That’s one way another way is i think i’ve left. I’d love to have and some organizations do it every year there was a conversation chair, the governance committee chair of the board, depending upon who you know, it was best to have that conversation with each boardmember every year. So how you doing? How have you done against these expectations? How do you feel about your performance? What are you hoping to do next year? So it’s that you know it’s the kind of a thing that any manager would do with an employee that their supervising right? You don’t just given employee job. Description and hope that they fulfill it right? You review them on a periodic basis so with a boardmember you do it once a year and you find out what’s going on and hopefully re energize the person, maybe you find different things for them to do and that they’d be engaged in, and someone so it’s an active process of interaction with every boardmember we’re just a couple minutes left here. I want to get teo the executive director’s responsibility in feeding you call it meat eating meat to the board and that’s it’s a really subtle process, but it’s really important and there’s two sides to it. One is there are really important questions that board should be dealing with, you know, what’s our financial future what’s our prospects. What of our programs are sustainable? What pro? What should we be seeking for outcomes of our programs? Where we going now? Sometimes executive directors don’t want their boards in cage that knows that because they want to make those decisions themselves, but they are the sea important things that you can get an executive can get important understanding and knowledge from smart board members and and make it a collaborative process. So they got a they have to be willing to trust the board. Teo, do this kind of stuff. But so how did the executive director get to do it? They do it suddenly they do it through the board chair. They do it to the executive committee. They make suggestions. They guide the work, they ask questions. You know, my my first experience on a board, i was a young lawyer, right? So i got recruited to this board of a senior service agency on the west side. They needed a lawyer on the board, so i got to be on it again. The western again. Oh, god. Not that we hear you’re new york accent, so it’s. But sooner or later, i became a lawyer, became the board chair, right? I would meet every week with the executive director, and she would tell me what she needed from me. She would tell me what she needed from me to get from the board. And we worked this a tina and that’s, a good executive director does that she’s a partner with the board chair and guiding the work off the board. But at the same time has to be willing to trust the board and be willing to put some of these meaty issues on the board table, because that means that he or she are not going to able to totally control him, right? The board is going to have a say on these questions as they should, and if if the if the offerings heir to minuscule who’s when we start to get disengagement, of course i mean you we recruit smart people, yeah, with good experience in all of their professions and lives and businesses, and we don’t give him challenging challenge do right? It doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, the more the challenge, the happy where you are. Yeah, that’s your that’s the irony you said earlier and i intruded to thee. The more you give, the happier you’re bored will be that’s, right? Yeah. Okay. All right. Let me ask you last minute. What do you love about this work? You’re doing around boards, it’s the people they’re so interesting and it’s the missions this so interesting. I mean, the range of things that people find important to do in life and to achieve in society is enormous. And i never would predict it. I mean, right now, right now, i’m working with a group that works with kids newyork city again in harlem, right? Teaching, um, ice hockey. Okay? And and and the parents and the kids this’s important? Not just sports, but charitable. They’re really changing kids lives by ice hockey. I dealt with another organization, new jersey, now across the river, right provides support for families who’ve lost the joy of a child. Grief counseling. Yeah, everybody thinks about grief counseling for adults who’ve lost spouses, right? But for you, no. So the rates for me what’s exciting is this range of things causes interests that people can get engaged in. Michael davidson, board coach many years experience over one hundred boards working with them, you’ll find his practice at board coach dot com. Thanks so much, michael. Why pleasure. Welcome back. So you get in five years. You have, you know, i know it won’t be that long. Yeah. Tony’s take two and in-kind gift’s coming up first. Pursuant. Online tools for small and midsize shops they’re committed to our community ceo is trent ryker. He saw the passion for mission in the twelve years he worked in non-profits also saw how under resourced so many organizations are the tools that they have are smart, they help your fund-raising you’ll raise more money and they are affordable pursuant dot com my video is still up on how sincerity trumps production value. You can see the earthquake in new york city last week, and i read from a hilton hotel letter in brooklyn broken english, but the sentiment definitely came through on that video is at tony martignetti dot com that’s tony’s take two for friday, thirteenth of november forty third show of the year. Here is in-kind gif ts with maria simple marie sample is back she’s, our monthly prospect research contributor and the prospect finder she’s, a trainer and speaker on prospect research. Her website is the prospect finder dot com her book is panning for gold. Find your best donorsearch prospects now she’s our doi n of dirt, cheap and free. You can follow her on twitter at maria simple. Welcome back, maria! Hey there, tony, how are you? I’m doing very well. How are you today? Just fine. Thank you. Go that’s. Good. We’re here to talk about gifts in-kind on this fall. Afternoon what way are we are but i first need to just quickly mention to you that apparently i am having a three year anniversary with your show this week. Really? You’ve been tracking your well, you know, who’s been tracking it is lincoln. Oh, really? You saw an anniversary notice on lengthen. This is this is your third year it yet it sent out an anniversary notice. Tio my connections and i all of a sudden started getting all these congratulatory notes this week. So i thought, well, that isn’t that appropriate that here is my my weak teo, reconvene with you so it’s been three wonderful years. Wow, that’s really something i would if you had asked me, i would have thought it was i would’ve said it was more like two holy cow that’s. Terrific. I get those notices i but i don’t always read all of them. Usually i just read the birthday notices. I don’t always read all the work anniversary notices, but i also noticed they send them out throughout the month, so they don’t. They don’t only come in the beginning. So maybe i just maybe i haven’t gotten yours yet. You’re three. Three year anniversary, but happy anniversary. I’m glad you’ve been with me for three years. Thank you for having me for three years. Wonderful. Oh, thank you. My pleasure gifts. In-kind let’s. Make sure everybody understands what a gift in-kind is. Yes. That’s, right, let’s do that first before i get thrown off into jargon jail first, first out of the gate here, so gets in-kind would really be anything other than monetary donations. So typically they would be considered donations of food, clothing, medicines, furnishings, office equipment, building materials and, you know, even sometimes services that air provided by somebody could be considered ah, gift in-kind as opposed to a gift in cash that they might give to your organization. So if they’re providing some sort of a specific service and then not charging you for it, i know that, you know, sometimes consultants will do that on on a pro bono basis, so that would be considered a gift in-kind as well, i could throw out another example that i’ve worked on a few times. Gifts of artwork, art collections are also gifts in-kind i worked on a really interesting one once it was a presidential memorabilia collection. And it included a picture. It included the resin, the one of the nixon resignation letters, original signed. I think there were five or six that he signed, and it also had a picture of that famous picture of jimmy carter, menachem begin and anwar sadat. You know, the three of them are shaking hands well, thiss was a deep into six figure art collection, but so they can be really interesting on dh cars. I’ve worked on a couple of classic car donations also, which can be quite valuable. I know you mentioned automobiles. I was just thinking of classic automobiles, but, um, yeah, they can be that could be kind of fun to work on. Well, so, you know, it must have been interesting. I’ve never had the opportunity myself to be working directly with, uh non-profit while they’ve been, you know, fortunate enough to receive something, you know, of that type of value on also, you know, it got me to thinking about, you know, well, what if i were a small to midsize non-profit and have the millionaire next store living in our community and maybe people didn’t even realize they were housing any type of art collection or one or two even significant pieces in their home? And you know what? You know? What do you do? What is the next step that you do if you find out that perhaps it’s somebody’s left it to you and there will or they could be making the gift while they’re still alive? When then, you know, it got to be really complicated as i started to research this a little bit to try and figure out. Well, what is the non-profit need to do first, in terms of valuing the artwork? So what did you do? I’ll tell you what organizations i kind of came up with that are reputable in terms of places you would turn to, but i’m curious to know how it worked out. How did you appraise the artwork? Yeah, well, let’s, let’s, take a step back and make sure he understands the for a gift that’s valued over five thousand dollars. And again, like maria said, this is we’re talking about non-cash gifts, so not this is not cash or stock, but something other than that. Over five thousand dollars, the irs requires what’s called a qualified appraisal and that’s a term of art and the qualified appraisal has certain requirements, and a qualified appraisal has to be done by a qualified appraiser and that’s also a term of art, and they’re certain credentials that the irs requires the place that i turned for the presidential art collection anyway was thie american association of appraisers i think i’m pretty sure they’re based here in new york, and i believe i contacted them first for some recommendations specific, too presidential memorabilia, was it perhaps the american society of appraisers? Because my research shows that they’re the oldest organization founded in nineteen thirty six, and they think they are in the new york area, okay, could have been, but i think there’s another one, too, which i think is triple a american association of appraisers or american appraisal association, so we could try either one of those, but yours is here’s more bonified because you actually research that i’m remember i’m living off the top of my head. Yeah, i actually am. I can actually post a list, uh, post show onto your facebook page, but there were actually sort of six top societies or associations, if you will that that my research turned up one. Was that one i just mentioned the american society of appraisers which, according to this particular web site that lists them, says that this one is the oldest and then there’s the art dealers association of america, thie appraisers, association of america. Well, there’s the triple oh, yeah. There’s that could’ve been it. Okay, please go. Thie appraisal foundation, thie international society of appraisers and the private art dealers association. So i thought that was all interesting. Then i got to wondering if you can actually turn to any of the major houses that actually, you know, the auction houses like those that you might be seeing featured on something like antiques roadshow. Ah, but i didn’t know if that was, uh, if people turned to those types of auction houses to help, you know, evaluate the worst oven item. Certainly an auction house, i suppose, would get involved once there. It actually want to, you know, offload that particular items so that they will end up having the cash. Uh, i i would imagine that would be the case for any non-profit other than a museum who would want that gift, perhaps as part of their dahna display, yeah, it’s it’s it could go broader than that, you know, there are ways that non-profits khun use gifts in-kind in their mission that that are permissible and are not so obvious, like hospitals can use artwork because they can decorate waiting rooms and hallways and things. One of the classic car donations that i worked on was for a university, and we were anticipating using the classic convertible in there athletic recruiting because they thought that seventeen eighteen year olds, when they’re thinking about what college to go to to play sports, might love driving around in a being driven around in a fifty seven chevy, i’m pretty sure that’s what it was convertible, so there are different charitable uses that they’re not as obvious as like you said, you know, the museum, there can be other charitable purposes for for these types of gift no, yeah, i hadn’t thought of that. That sounds great, actually, i can i can really see how an organization might want to step back and think about how it could fit in, as you said to their overall mission or two attraction like in the case of the college or university. There with their son sports department. Really wonderful stuff. And of course, there’s. Also the other examples you gave you no services could be gift in-kind so that’s obviously being used used up immediately a point that i want to make. Two is it’s sort of subsumed in what were saying? I’ll make it explicit. You have to find the right kind of appraiser. There are like i mentioned presidential memorabilia there. Our appraisers are specialising just that. So if you had a ah, a fine art photograph that was being donated to you you need to find someone who specializes in not only find our photography but they may even specialize in the particular photographer the artist or the era if it’s ah it’s ah it’s! Not a contemporary piece of art so you have to find and this goes into the irs requirements. Do you have to find someone who specializes in precisely what it is you’re being given? If it’s an automobile automobile appraisers it’s just like a medical specialist you have to find the right kind of person. Maria, let me ask you about trying to find gifts in-kind i mean, these don’t only come from wealthy people, i don’t want people to be left with that idea. They’d only come from people of wealth. What about ways of ah, finding gifts in-kind in your community? Well, that got me to thinking about not not just the individuals in your community who i might be capable of doing this. But then i started thinking about all of the corporate programs that are in place, for example, that have gifts in-kind as part of their overall corporate social responsibility, so they may have a corporate giving program, a corporate foundation, then they may have a separate set of programming related to in-kind on dh. Then i was wondering, well, how could a non-profit potentially find who are the corporations in my area? Or, you know, i’m a non-profit in need of, um, you know, whatever women’s closing to help the women in our shelter be closed in the winter months or something like that, you know, where could i find that actually found? Sure, there’s multiple websites, but i found a non-profit website that that looked like it would really be helpful front for your listeners to know about and it’s a good three sixty have you? Heard about that one. Oh, i don’t know. It is what is a good three. Sixty dot org’s. Yeah, good. Three. Sixty dot org’s. And so you can go into this if you are a non-profit and you’re, you’re in search of product donations. Um, and you cannot go. You can see the companies that are there. And then, if you’re a company that wants to list your product donations, you can list what you have available on dh. Of course, if you’re an individual that would just like to donate to this particular or a good three sixty dot org’s, you can do that as well. They’re looking for monetary donations. Always. So i just thought it was a pretty interesting, almost like a clearinghouse. It looks like to me. Yeah. Okay. Well, that’s, why you’re our die end of dirt cheap and free. Anything else you found out there about trying to find these types of gif ts? Um uh, i was thinking about this might be more suitable for organizations that are, you know, related to being near the water or maritime or marine environment organizations. But, you know, i have touched upon yacht’s in the past. And trying to figure out, you know, yacht owners and so forth. But, you know, sometimes there will be people who would like to actually donate their yacht, just like people would want to donate a car supposed to try to sell it on their own. So boatinfoworld dot com would allow you to search by state or county or zip code for a list of boat owners near you. So, you know, if we have anybody in the, you know, marine related industry listening to the call, they might want to check out boatinfoworld dot com to get a list of boat owners. Um and it could be something that they would want to start cultivating relationships with those individuals getting them and involved in cultivation events, etcetera. You always go the marine wear because you have a sailboat. I know you don’t have in-kind wave that in dahna that’s. Ok, you are you donating your sailboat? No, not anytime soon, you know? Okay, you work quick. Answer that too. Okay? Okay. Where? L should we go with this? What if in terms of well, i’m sorry? Was there anything more about finding potential gifts? In-kind or is we? Exhausted that. Um then i start thinking about real estate, and i was wondering, well, how would you find out if you want it to proactively find if there is real estate, that could be potential for donation? And i was thinking, well, i guess if you got involved in developing a solid relationships with realtors in your area or, you know, even the banks, um, that, you know, unfortunately these last few years, we’ve seen such high foreclosure rates and so forth there might be some opportunity there if you have conversations with bankers in your community or realtors to find out about some potential properties that could become available, you know, before as a donation. All right, we have to go out for a couple minutes, we come back, i have a couple of tips about real estate gifts that marie is talking about, and we’ll keep going on gif ts in-kind stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation, really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website, philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals, the better way. I’m peter shankman, author of zombie loyalists, and you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent, maria simple. Hey there, what would i say in jersey? What up? How you doing? Yeah, doing that’s just yeah, i was born in jersey and i was raised there, so i don’t like that that kind of organized crime overtone around new jersey, but sopranos obviously hit that home. A couple of things that i wanted to reinforce about real estate that that you have brought up real estate can be a very, very good gift for non-profits it can also be a really lousy gift. You have to do your due diligence around real estate and basically it’s the same as if you were buying a home or condor coop do the same too diligence before you put that charity name in the oppcoll the the chain of title so you want to do an environmental assessment phase one. If that raises any issues, then you have to go to a face to assessment if the land has buildings on it or a home, whatever you want to make sure that the building is all in code. So there’s there’s that kind of an inspection, a building inspection title search to make sure that there wasn’t there isn’t some defect in the title, basically all the things you would do as i said that you, if you were, if you were buying the place to yourself, whether it’s got dahna buildings on it or not before you took ownership of a piece of property, you want to make sure that it’s clean in all those ways environmentally title code and building inspection wise. Oh, and if you do all that, then you can end up with a really valuable gift of real estate. So you you bring up an interesting point. I hadn’t really thought about that chain of title that you just mentioned hyre so if i’m understanding you correctly, does that mean if if somebody were to approach an organization let’s say while they’re alive and they say, you know, i’ve got this undeveloped piece of land we want to leave, too. I would like to donate to your non-profit organization, and if you decide to say pay well, great and take that piece of wind and then immediately sell it and let say it’s sold within, you know, three months time, and if you didn’t go through maybe something in the environmental assessment and then somebody down the line says, wow, i can’t believe x y z non-profit, uh, ever owned this piece of land it happens to have had, you know, contamination on it or whatever you’re saying, it could end up coming to bite you in from almost like a pr perspective if your name’s somehow attached to it. This’s like a law school exam there’s a bunch of things in the inn. That hypothetical you just gave me? Yep. Pr. Yes, but i think even potentially worse than that. Although pr can be pretty bad. There’s a potential for legal liability. If it’s if it’s an environmental mess, then all the owners in the past and i’m not environment the lawyer, but i know a little bit a very little about it all. The all the owners in the past are potentially liable for not having cleaned it up or possibly for having contributed to the mess. So and that applies to individuals to so yeah, that’s. This is why we do environmental assessments. You can. You can. Get in some really sticky legal trouble if they’re turns out later on a couple of owners later or something to be an environmental problem and, you know, you didn’t know about it, you didn’t insure against it, things like that. Go ahead. I i was just wondering, what about, in the case of somebody who is willed, a piece of land or a property that had some sort of an environmental issue from years ago? Let’s let’s, you know, think about somebody who may be owned a family run gas station for a number of years, or something like that, or on oil related business oil tanks or something, and then the spouse dies. The person continues to all the remaining spouse, continues to own the property, has no heirs and decides to leave it in her will to a non-profit so then i’m wondering what the impact is mean in this case kayman non-profit to say no, we don’t want it no, thank you. Yeah, again. Sounds like a law school, hypothetical, by the way, i do recognize you turning the tables on me, asking me questions on guy, and i don’t appreciate it, so you may not. Reaching your four with me? Yes, thie the amount of time that you have tio renounce a gift. I’m pretty sure that’s what it’s called in a will varies from state to state it’s typically ninety days or, you know, maybe longer for any beneficiary of a gift by will to turn it down. You don’t have to accept something that’s in a will. So if in your hypothetical the non-profit would want to do its due diligence around that real estate before it accepted the gift, and within the time period that it can still turn it down, if it doesn’t want it. The only thing that came out of your earlier one was you said the the charity sells the real estate that’s a whole other issue. If it’s sold within three years of the time of the date of the donation, then that has implications for the donor’s charitable deduction. The donor’s charitable deduction gets reduced because if the charity unloads, i’m using an unkind word, but i’m not using a loaded word but gets rid of that gift within three years of the date of donation. Then it’s presumed that the donation was not part of their charitable mission not within their charitable mission and therefore that the irs goes back to the donor who claimed the donation and that and the deduction associated with it possibly years earlier and reduces it from a fair market value to a cost basis. Don’t a deduction on that could be a huge difference between what it costs the donor to get something and what the market value of it was when they made the gift so big implications if charity does not use a gift if does not use a gift for at least three years, i have to go out in about a minute. Maria so i kind of took over your segment, but but you were asking me questions. So it’s your fault? Um, well, no, i mean, you know, you’ve given us so much food for thought, really? And i think, you know, the bottom line is you really have to be able to, you know, seek out the right appraisers, seek the advice of financial and law professionals when you’re going to be getting any sort of a significant gift. Ah, oven in-kind gift any non-cash related gift that you really do need todo your homework and and and know what what to look for here, i think it’s, good stuff. There are a couple of liars publications that will help you publication five twenty six, which is called charitable contributions, and also publication five sixty one, which is about gifts in-kind and those qualified appraisals and qualified appraisers i was talking about. Okay, maria, we got to leave it there. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, tony maria simple are doi end of dirt cheap? You’ll find her at the prospect finder dot com and on twitter she’s at maria simple. I’m pre recorded this week, so can’t do riel live listener love by city and state, but the love still goes out of course live listener loved everybody listening live on this day podcast pleasantries, too, are over ten thousand, whatever you do in painting a house, washing dishes, driving subway, ing, walking, running, tread, milling, elliptic, politicizing whatever you’re doing podcast pleasantries, toe all those listeners and affiliate affections to our am and fm station listeners throughout the country. Korso, of course, just the latest of many affiliate affections out to all those am and fm terrestrial listeners next. Week get creative poetry and other arts in your meetings and events with lissa piercy. If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com. Where in the world else would you go pursuant, you’ll raise pillowcases more money. I’m not talking those accent pillows that you toss on your couch. I’m talking those twelve foot long pregnancy body pillows that fill a queen size bed where your husband doesn’t fit anymore, filled with money. Pursuant dot com, our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer, shows social media is by diner russell, while susan chavez is on maternity leave. On our music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and big ring. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a m or eight pm so that’s, when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe add an email address their card, it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s, why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were and and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. Innovation is in the power of understanding that you don’t just put money on a situation expected to hell. 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