Gene Takagi: OK Boomer, Move Over
In only two years, Millennials will make up 75% of the global workforce. Along with Gen Z, these will soon be the majority of your workers, your donors, your volunteers. Think sustainability. Are you engaging them now? Are they fully represented on your board? Gene Takagi talks us through the implications around philanthropy, technology, fundraising, and more. He’s our legal contributor and the principal of NEO Law Group.
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Friend. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your Aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. We have a listener of the week. Core Africa Liz Fanning, the executive director is a longtime nonprofit radio listener and core Africa just announced an investment of 59 million $400,000 over five years from Mastercard Foundation. And I think let’s just call it $60 million because the difference is a mere 600,000, which is trifling 1%. Core Africa. Congratulations to you. This is such a testament to the amazing valuable work of the core Africa volunteers throughout the continent. The dedication of the staff and the commitment of the board core Africa is going to expand to 11 countries with this new investment. Congratulations. Core Africa. I am so happy for you and happy to make you this week’s non profit radio listener of the week. Congratulations. Plus we have a new sponsor. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of Iraq Docks Icis if I had to see that you missed this week’s show. Ok. Boomer move over in only two years, millennials will make up 75% of the global workforce along with Gen Z. These will soon be the majority of your workers, your donors, your volunteers think sustainability. Are you engaging them now? Are they fully represented on your board? Gene Takagi talks us through the implications around philanthropy, technology, fundraising and more. He’s our legal contributor and the principal of Neo Law Group on Tony’s take 2 23 and TCC were sponsored by donor box. Welcome to Donor Box. Thank you so much for joining the non profit radio family. Very, very glad to have you. Thank you with intuitive fundraising software from Donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Here is okay. Boomer, move over. It’s a pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi. You know who he is, but he deserves a proper intro. Nonetheless, he’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at Neo Law group dot com and he’s at G Tak Gene. Such a good. It’s such a pleasure to see you. Welcome back. Welcome back. [00:03:41.20] spk_1:
Thanks so much. Tony Great to see you as well. [00:03:46.96] spk_0:
My pleasure. Always. Now, when we last talked, we were with Amy Sample Ward and there was a discussion that included the, the potential decline of Twitter and the rise of some alternatives. Are you still at G Tech on Twitter? And, and are you any other place that, that I should be acknowledging? [00:04:07.89] spk_1:
I’m still active on Twitter. I’m hedging a little and I’m on Mastodon and post, but those are sort of lightly used, but I post daily on all those channels. [00:04:20.41] spk_0:
Okay. So still stick with Still Twitter. The best way to reach you think [00:04:26.26] spk_1:
probably you wanted to see most of my content. Twitter is gonna be the best way to see you. Okay. [00:04:44.60] spk_0:
Okay. Stick with that for now. All right. Millennials and uh and generation Z, you’re, you’re concerned about the future for these folks. What? Well, high level view, what’s concerning you? [00:05:05.06] spk_1:
Well, it’s less concerned about these folks versus concerned about non profits for not engaging these folks because in a few short years by 2030 millennials and Gen Z will make up 75% of our work for, of course, they just crossed over the 50% barrier I think a couple years ago, but within seven years, 75% of our workforce, that’s a huge change in our, in our workplace [00:05:21.70] spk_0:
demographics and, and we’re not, we’re not accommodating these folks you’re concerned about uh for instance, board membership, um significant employment issues. What, what, what would you like to? I’m gonna give you the first shot. I let’s change things up because sometimes I feel like an autocrat. So, what would, what would, what would you like to talk first? Talk about first? That nonprofits are just not paying sufficient attention [00:06:26.96] spk_1:
to? Sure. Well, maybe I’ll just go without sort of criticizing nonprofits. Let’s just like, say, why should we as nonprofits engage millennials and Gen Z? Yes, they, they’re gonna make up a majority of our workforce. But what else does that mean? Um, and, you know, when, when they make up a majority of the work force, I think I’m also so saying, and I don’t have the studies to back this one up, but I’m also saying, eventually it goes to say that they’re going to make up a majority of our donors. They’re gonna make up a majority of the beneficiaries that we’re helping. They’re going to make up a majority of all of our supporters and our collaborators and eventually our generation Boomers, Gen X. Eventually we’re gonna kind of be not leading some of these places. Although I saw a really interesting article in the Atlantic a month or two ago that said, um people aren’t age, relatively young. Tony still still, but [00:06:46.92] spk_0:
I’m young, I’m young, I’m 61. So I’m among the youngest [00:06:56.32] spk_1:
boomers and I’m very close in age to you, Tony. And um the Atlantic article said that persons are age and even a little bit younger tend to think like we’re about 20% younger than we actually are. We kind of resonate with our maybe not our sort of calendar date but we feel like we’re a younger group by about 20%. Yeah, [00:07:23.70] spk_0:
I agree. I feel even younger than, than 20%. I feel like, more like 40. Yeah. And I, 20 years, like 20, 21 years younger, [00:07:33.53] spk_1:
I feel the same way. But it occurred to me in my head that maybe that’s why groups of leaders that are thinking about engaging younger people are not placing such importance in it because we think, well, we kind of understand that group anyway, we feel around that age, but when we start to, when we start to think about it, well, maybe there are some differences and maybe their perspectives and their skill sets and their experiences are going to really add value to our organizations [00:08:31.47] spk_0:
and it’s not even, it’s not even, maybe, I mean, they will, but we need to, you know, it’s time for us to sort of move aside. Um, but, yeah, now it’s very interesting gene that, you know, our own self perception, maybe confounding the larger, the larger culture slowly holding, holding back the larger cultural changes, you know, just because I feel like I’m 40 doesn’t mean that I have the awareness of technology politics, the culture that a 40 year old has. [00:08:33.25] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. Right. And certainly not ones that I can tell you from personal experiences, like, from my niece is certainly not those, that 20 year olds. [00:08:42.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Not even claiming. Right. Of [00:08:49.81] spk_1:
course, of course, I just recall my niece is telling me this Miley face emoji is passive aggressive when I use that in text messages. So I have to watch myself in our communications. [00:09:33.28] spk_0:
So it is, I see. Okay. I had, I had my own anecdote about a story I used to tell that is now deemed misogynistic, but I was telling it for years in professional settings, not just in stand up comedy but in professional settings. Um Yeah. No, you’re right. All right. So we have to get past our own self perceptions and think about the larger culture, economy, nonprofit sector. Alright. Alright. Alright. So help us, I don’t know. Are we talking? I guess, I guess we’re talking here to the, to the, to the uh the obstructionists were talking here to the Boomers. Are we move aside? [00:09:38.97] spk_1:
Uh you know, a little bit um [00:09:41.88] spk_0:
like we are, I feel like we are, [00:11:43.76] spk_1:
yeah, especially to the extent that if you’re on a board or if you’re in an organization where your leadership is dominated by, by boomers um like ourselves, then, then, you know, maybe we have to think a little bit more about sharing power and authority and other things and not just to look better, like take a better photograph of our leadership, you know, for all, for all of these specific reasons, I’ll just raise a few right now. Um The laws changed and if the voting citizenry is changing in demographics, the laws are going to change to what they want them to change as within constitutional limits, of course. But even the constitutional interpretation is going to change as our Supreme Court starts to get younger. And I’ll cross my fingers a little bit on that. Um, but you know, what is charitable, um, you know, it started off as kind of relief of the poor. That’s what’s built into our regulations and then kind of expanded into, maybe we’ll civil rights can be charitable under five oh one C three. Um And then, you know, it expanded, although it’s not even stated in the regulations, the promotion of health being of five oh one C three, purpose and protection of the environment. Um Although I recall, I put in an application for a charity maybe 10, 15 years ago where global warming was something they wanted to combat. And the I R S asked, or at least this agent asked, you know, have you really looked into both sides of that issue because maybe if you’re just closing one point of view that it’s not charitable or educational at all. So, you know, our ideas have certainly evolved over what is and isn’t charitable and they will continue to evolve with younger people. Now again, making up some of the decisions of these and if we’re not anticipating these changes, then we’re going to be reactive, slow to react, possibly and less competitive in the very increasingly competitive field where philanthropy is also changing, right? What is philanthropy? Is it private foundations like it used to be? Um, we certainly know about donor advised funds. Yeah, please tell. [00:12:47.76] spk_0:
Yeah. No, before we, before we advance there because that is a rich topic, the different forms of philanthropy but sticking with, you know, regulations. What, what is a charity? What is charity? Uh you know, that all that all depends on the, the our, our political leaders. Uh, you know, recognizing that there’s because I’m basing it on, you know, U S code and U S regulations promulgated by the, by the different departments of the federal government and state governments. You know, those are all promulgated, promulgated by legislatures and, and I don’t use this pejoratively bureaucrats, you know, public service workers in government. And if, you know, I, I see the politics being especially slow to change, I don’t know what, I don’t know what the average age is of a U S senator or U S representative. But I’m certain, I’m certain it’s not, I’m certain it’s not in the forties. I’d be very surprised if it’s in the forties even. [00:13:07.02] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree. So our political system may be the slowest sort of, of the sectors to sort of change, although a lot of them are responsive to money. Right. Um, and we’ve been talking and kind of fundraising feels about the intergenerational transfer of wealth, the greatest ever in, in, you know, in the history of recorded civilization, I mean, [00:13:34.41] spk_0:
okay. So, right. So the Boomers do have some value, leave, leave us your money, leave, leave your money behind. We need to, we need to execute, we need that wealth to execute change. [00:14:18.80] spk_1:
And you know, as the Boomers sort of sort of aged out, the money is just being transferred into younger generations. And with that money now they’re going to influence political power as well. I’m a little cynical on this, but yes, money will sort of make changes or resulted in changes in the law, including in terms of what is charitable and just started to give you a hot topic. When we talk about relief, poor and civil rights being charitable. I don’t think that providing reparations to historically discriminated against or oppressed groups is considered charitable. But will that change over time? I don’t think selling solar energy at market rates is considered charitable to the general public. But will that change over time? I think these things can change fairly rapidly within a generation. So these are things that organizations need to pay attention to. [00:15:47.49] spk_0:
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Well, you know, I think again when we’re talking about relief of the poor were also sort of expanding that into economic development in, you know, historically disadvantaged areas. So, you know, blighted areas, areas that need sort of more economic development, bringing solar into those areas that sort of low cost may stimulate economic development as well as having sort of the environmental benefit that solar can bring, that would probably qualify as charitable even now. Um But if you start to sell it at market rates and go into expensive neighborhoods and tell people to convert their, you know, their energy sources or to, you know, buildings, first class buildings in downtown and saying, hey, change your energy source as a charity that might have a tremendous impact on climate change and other things. Um, if we could get big companies to change and put into their buildings and charities could influence that. That might have a huge impact, but it probably wouldn’t be considered charitable right now. I [00:17:28.95] spk_0:
see. Okay. Okay, good. I’m glad I asked. All right. All right. Yeah. Reparations that it is kind of easy to see that in, in 10 years that reparations to African Americans, Asian Americans, Latin Americans that, that, those, those, that subject could be on the table for, for, for charitable, for, as a charitable purpose. [00:17:38.97] spk_1:
10 years ago, it was really not even in the discussion outside 10 years [00:18:16.12] spk_0:
ago. 10 years from now, 10 years from now. I think we’re, I think we’re in, I think the next 10 to 15 years are gonna be considerable political upheaval, cultural upheaval. There’s, there’s, I don’t know, maybe, maybe because, because I’m living in it. So I’m, I’m experiencing it as more volatile. Uh And I don’t mean that pejoratively more, more revolutionary than the transfer of wealth and uh power and prestige from other, other generations to two hours. I don’t, maybe because I’m, I’m the one surrendering the power. Maybe I see it as more, more of, more of a cultural shift than, than the past. Maybe the past has been significant as well. [00:19:41.84] spk_1:
Yeah. You know, and, and it’s interesting. So, you know, if you were to look up articles on engaging millennials and Gen Z, you know, they’ll mention like different perspectives, but they’ll also mention something like they’ve got a greater passion for social justice and things of that nature and, you know, I, I agree to some extent that that is true. I think we can see that. But then when I think back, you know, to the sort of the older boomers and, you know, the hippies in the 60s, well, maybe everybody when they were younger it was just a little bit more into, you know, the environment and social justice and racial justice. And as you age, you know, again, taking a little bit of a cynical viewpoint and certainly not to, to sort of over generalize, but as a big broad group, you know, you become a little bit less, a little bit more resistant to radical changes. Um, you know, especially if you’re in, in a comfortable situation, you’re privileged enough not to have to worry about it in your own life. The changes that you’re pushing for, maybe we’re not as radical as when you were in your twenties. Um, um, and I think you see that throughout the world, some major major social movements led by sort of college aged kids or young adults. Um, and they’re the ones that are putting it all on the line. [00:20:28.60] spk_0:
Your exact point has been driven home to me lately because I’ve been watching a lot of Woodstock videos on youtube and I’m thinking, you know, when, when they’re, when they’re showing the audience, you know, first of all, it’s fantastic because I’m watching Jimi Hendrix and The Grateful Dead and, but you know, when they, when they’re panning into the audience I’m thinking, are these folks, the folks who were sitting there in the, in the muck, you know, they’re now in their seventies and eighties, there was Woodstock was August of 1969. So, if you were 2025 or so, you know, your, your, into your seventies and, and if you were a little older, your, into your eighties, uh, talk about your perspective shifting from, from, from when you were in your twenties and thirties. [00:21:16.96] spk_1:
Yeah. And you know, we’re the same people but, you know, life, life changes and our perspectives change. And even though we identify with some of the perspectives that younger people bring, we, they’re still different, you know, as we sort of admitted at the start of it. And so just so many changes um that they have a different feel for or that they place with different importance in terms of climate change is maybe a classic example of climate change may not do as much to an 80 year old in terms of their personal life. Um But to a 20 year old, climate change may completely impact their adulthood and, you know, whether they are below the water where they live or. Um so, you know, obviously they’re gonna, they’re gonna have a greater incentive to ask for more radical change. And, you know, well, [00:22:00.24] spk_0:
hopefully these, these folks, the, the older boomers and the world war two generation. I mean, hopefully they’re thinking of their ancestors uh coming. Um, no ancestors are in your, your past. They’re thinking of their, their heirs and, and Children and grandchildren. I mean, at least the ones I talked to I think are considering those, you know, considering the future. [00:22:05.39] spk_1:
I think. I’m sorry, go ahead. No, [00:22:07.32] spk_0:
finish your point. Then I want to, I want to drill down a little more, a little more detail, but go ahead, please make your point. [00:22:12.46] spk_1:
Sure. I was thinking that it’s been sort of a customary thought amongst older generations to want things better for your kids that your kids would have a better life than, than you. But I think right now we’re kind of in the generation, the kids generations that are coming up like the Gen Z’s where that probably is not true, at least economically, um [00:22:52.46] spk_0:
at least economically. Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. We’re not. No, I agree. Alright. So you started to talk about different forms of philanthropy that uh I don’t know, call them Ems and Zs for millennials and Gen Z I know and your, your blog post, you call them younger people. Um I’ll call them Ems and Z’s but different forms of philanthropy, like donor advised funds, llcs were right there. They’re engaging a lot differently than direct gifts to 501 C three non profits. [00:25:59.70] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, which places nonprofits, charitable nonprofits to 51 C, three organizations in a place of competition for dollars. Um So it’s something again that nonprofits need to understand. Well, what is the value proposition they offer? Because I’m really start advocate of nonprofits being something very, very special and very different from a social enterprise, that’s a for profit. And so social enterprise actually was a co opted term. I think social enterprises used to refer to nonprofits like goodwill that we’re engaged in sort of earned income revenues. But now it’s sort of been co opted by the for profit sector of for profits that do social good or social enterprises when that’s sort of a primary reason for their, their operation and their, their existence. So, you know, these models are changing and millennials. Hmcs are saying, you know, we’re a little bit more sector agnostic in terms of doing social good, we could put it into a private foundation, but we probably don’t want to, we might use it to ask because it’s temporary and we don’t have to throw everything into it. What about an L L C like Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan, like the Chan Zuckerberg initiative, the Emerson Collective, which is Steven Jobs, um widows, uh you know, charitable vehicle or philanthropic vehicle. So those are llcs and you know, you can go into a whole show about that. Go fund me is sort of an alternative to giving the charities a lot of people, especially in the millennial and Gen Z H think giving directly to a beneficiary is the way to go bypass charity. Um C Four’s we saw the Patagonia founder Yvon Chouinard decide I’m going to give leave much my wealth to A C four and I’ll do it. Now. There’s planning reasons to do that with gift and estate tax deductions being much more valuable to someone like him than an income tax deduction when you’re like a tech entrepreneur and you’re not taking much of an income, but you have enormous amounts of wealth and stock that have not been um liquidated yet. So you’re sitting on tons of money, but you don’t have much of an income tax benefit from giving a donation. Um This volunteer work and giving data data is now, you know, a huge asset and a very valuable one that we’re understanding and personally we’re giving up our own data to a lot of sort of I accept um you know, websites that all of a sudden get to use our data and I know new laws are coming into that, but volunteering your data can also be an impor the thing that we have to think about. And so philanthropy and how we think of giving is changing rapidly. And there was a big change in the law just a few years ago in the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act that left itemized deduct Ear’s um that can take get a tax benefit from charitable contribution. It moved from something like 34 For 35 down to like, less than 13%. Yeah. So there’s just tremendous changes that can happen very, very quickly. And charities need to understand that. And again, younger perspectives, maybe on top of some of this news that older generations may not be following this closely. At least some of them. [00:26:32.71] spk_0:
And you’re right to characterize these absolutely as competitors to our traditional five oh one c three nonprofits. And, and so you want to know what you want to know what your competition is doing, what these different forms are, are, are there, are there ways that you can leverage some of them? You know, maybe it is a subsidiary or some kind of an affiliate relationship. But you know, the knowledge is among the, the EMS and disease. [00:27:15.98] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree, tony there. These are not only competitors, they often can be collaborators and allies. Um But you do need to understand kind of the relationships, the multiple relationships that you’re going to have with these different types of entities and how that will impact who your supporters are, who your donors are as your donor base or is your subscriber base or is your membership base as they start to age? Are you engaging more younger people? So, for sustainability over the future, even if that was like, our ultimate goal is to make sure that we have an organization in the future, you’ve got to engage the younger people that are gonna be running this show, um, in a few short years [00:28:39.70] spk_0:
now, some folks may say, well, I can just, if I want to learn about these things, I’ll just engage a baby boomer attorney and he or she will explain or they will explain the, we’ll explain this all to us and then we’ll, but, but you’re not, you know, that’s be, that’s, that’s not what I agree with, but I could see a cynical view, well, just hire an older attorney. They understand llcs versus B corpse. And, well, you know, you know, the older advisers may very well understand the, the intricacies of, you know, creating one, but the creative side of how you can integrate it into your work if you can, you know, that, that takes someone who’s got a different perspective. And I think that’s, I agree with you. I mean, that’s the younger perspective, you know, how to creatively integrate, not just the nuts and bolts of how to LLC versus, you know, engaging a crowdfunding platform, you know, etcetera. [00:29:55.11] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think when we talk about negotiating deals with other parties, you know, have, you know, if we’re not speaking the same language and customs and don’t have that same type of comfort and talking with the younger generation, um, you know, something can get lost and on their side if they don’t have that comfort, talking with an older generation, if it just doesn’t mesh quite as well as when they’re talking with, appear in their age group or within sort of a generational group that can affect the negotiation. And, you know, whether the deal gets done or whether they go with a competitor or whether they, you know, ask for more things because they trust you less. So just, you know, getting more people involved and if you are going to engage millennials and gen Z, I really want to make the point that it isn’t about just adding a few people in certain positions. Um It is really uh an understanding and an investment um that you need to make. It’s something where you have to empower people, not just sort of tokenize them or trivialize their importance, you really have got to give them in positions of responsibility. Um And you’ve got to open up your own culture to sort of embrace the additional sort of cultures and perspectives they can bring. So it really can’t be just like, okay, we’ll add like a senior manager, we’ll add a board member that’s, you know, 32 that, that’ll solve our problems. [00:32:09.65] spk_0:
All the, well, all the caveats that you and I talked about when we’ve talked about uh diversity, equity inclusion, avoiding tokenism, you know, giving real authority, you know, levers of power, not, not just a higher here or, or a board member there. It’s time for Tony’s take 2:23 NTC. Big. Big thanks to Heller consulting. They’re sponsoring non profit radio at the conference, the nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10, we will be together in booth 4 24. Hello, consulting, non profit radio Me, all three of us sharing a booth for 24. I will be capturing lots of interviews from the smart speakers at N T C and you should think about it to think about going, you can go hybrid. You heard Amy and me talk about it last week. It really is a very, very good conference. I mean, you can go virtually, virtually. Um It’s a very good conference, smart speakers. It’s fun. It’s just, it’s a very worthwhile conference to go to you. You will learn. Uh And of course, we know that this is not only for technologists but I’m repeating from last week. So all the info is at N 10.org. Thank you again. Heller consulting for sponsoring non profit radio at the nonprofit technology conference. Thanks so much. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got Boo Koo but loads more time for okay. Boomer move over with Gene Takagi. I’m taking pleasure in saying I’m sweeping myself aside. Move over. Let’s talk some about the employment, employment changes, you know, the sensibilities that, that the, the M S and disease bring. [00:33:59.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s really hitting us right now because I think no matter what sector we’re in, we realize that employment has changed as a result of the COVID pandemic. Um We’re finding out what, where do workers want to work, how do they want to work? Um What is the most importance to them? And it’s not just sort of the data that we here, um you know, um from, from each other, but there are actual studies and I’ll just point to one, the Deloitte 2022 Y Z Global study. Um And you know, that that’s the study by the, you know, the big accounting firm and they found out what we probably already know, but cost of living is of tremendous importance um to, to these younger generations, work life, balance, learning organizations and what the organization, what they’re sort of, not only their viewpoint but how they operate and its social impact and its environmental impact and it’s sort of investment in diversity, equity inclusion. Those are things that matter to those younger generations in terms of, in their choice of work in terms of how long they might stay at a particular company. Um And, you know, those are things again and nonprofits are competing now, younger people are also moving from job to job faster than some older generations are used to. Whereas, you know, if, if we go older than us to a lot of people just worked one job their whole life. Um And that is certainly not true anymore. Um And it’s even less true now for the younger generations. So if we’re competing constantly for employees, what do we know? And understand what they want and need and consider important [00:34:58.67] spk_0:
and what they perceive about us as a place to work. There’s, you know, there’s, there’s glass door and, and, and those, those types of sites but, you know, the, the research is so much easier to do and even when they’re, when, when someone is talking to you about potentially working for you, they’re, they’re taking a lot more clues, you know, than just how much vacation time do I get? You know, what and what’s the, what’s the medical insurance like, you know, uh time off flexible work locations. Um culture, you know, that’s, and culture is a very, you know, that’s a very amorphous thing, but folks are sussing it out as they’re interviewing you and they’re talking to you and, you know, if they’re only meeting people who are 60 and over as they’re interviewing that, that, no, that in itself says a lot about the culture at the institution. [00:36:09.15] spk_1:
Yeah. And I’ll just sort of add even younger generation controlled companies um that, you know, and I’ll just do some of the big tech companies that are laying off like huge amounts of people right now. That’s a cultural thing that people will remember. Um So if you’re quick to lay off and you’re still like providing very good returns for your shareholders, um that may be something employees are going to sort of take into account in terms of whether they would go back to you know, the same company or whether they would tell their friends to work in that company and they’re much more savvy about our company’s greenwashing or sort of social good washing and saying, you know, talking the right talk but not really walking, you know, that walk. So, um, I think again, nonprofits really need to know what their competitive edge might be. Um, in terms of attracting workers and keeping workers because they’re dedicated to social good. But also what, you know, the, the issues might be if they’re not sort of um promoting the same type of values in their culture and not just sort of were a great organization for the environment, but we’re terrible to our employees. Like, you’ve got to really make sure your values mash, [00:36:27.22] spk_0:
where else would you like to go routine? What would [00:37:36.70] spk_1:
um you know, I was thinking just a few other quick points, you know, management and governance I think are also changing and that sort of goes with how employees, you know, want to be managed, want board of directors to sort of govern organizations, you know, our laws and the old and older structures are very hierarchical. Um You know, the board of directors sits at the top of the organization, they’re ultimately in control of all management and direction of the organization’s affairs. They delegated down to a CEO and executive director and executive director that is responsible for all the employees and there’s all these hierarchies of, you know, who gets to be responsible for. Um, and I think younger generations are much more into distributed leadership. Um, and it’s possible um to set up some systems within the law, the law is not completely sort of inflexible about this, but you’ve got to set it up in the right way. And so there is a balance of what some of the older people can tell you about the restrictions that are involved. But where the younger people could say these are the things that we really need. We, we don’t want just sort of one person dictating everything about the organization or a border that doesn’t know our day to day business coming and making huge changes that affects all of our work, you know, work lives. We need to have a voice in this and this is these are ways that we want you to consider it. So again, that’s [00:38:00.26] spk_0:
what does that look like jean some a model of distributed leadership. [00:38:42.81] spk_1:
So distributed leadership, maybe delegation from, let’s say, from the board down to the CEO and the CEO down to groups of employees and where the C E O S O is going, saying you’re responsible for this, you have the ultimate say on this. I’m not going to veto you as long as it’s, you know, within what are accepted framework is you get the ultimate say in this. If the executive director is questioning it, you know, it’s not the best business choice. They’re not going to overrule if that’s the basis of it, if it’s unlawful or something, because the director figures that out then of course they would have the power to overrule it. But, um, it’s not going to just be one person’s business judgment is going to be groups and that can work well. And that can also work terribly in a not great way as well. But younger folks are more attuned to that type of, you know, leadership model. We have to think about how it might work and how to fine tune it in a way that is acceptable and works well for an organization and, you know, and its board of directors as well to be comfortable with that, [00:39:10.93] spk_0:
that could even be something on a rotating basis. [00:39:59.58] spk_1:
Yeah, it can, it can be. But, you know, it actually, you know, one of the sort of big pros about this is, it gives collective thought to something that’s important where a lot of people get to put input that are intimately involved with the, that decision boards are sometimes somewhat removed because again, they’re not in the day to day, but this group of employees might actively day to day, be heavily involved with that particular issue and to give them decision making authority may feel them, you know, I’m going to use an old term, gives them ownership over the organization, they feel like they’re empowered and the organization is part of them and they are part of the organization. And that feeling is something I think that people desire. Um uh And again, management styles, governance styles are changing or, and the desire for more collaborative and distributed leadership is really a big force that I see coming in the next 10-20 years. [00:40:43.03] spk_0:
How about fundraising, fundraising, sustainability? You know, you started to touch on both of those um our, our donor base and I’m the guy who’s, I’m the evangelist for Planned Giving. But we have to also acknowledge, I mean, look, the baby boomers are not all dead, you and I are living testament to that. So there is still valuing plan to giving fundraising. But our older folks, donors are being replaced by younger [00:41:20.95] spk_1:
donors. Yeah. And I actually think so, you know, some charities are focused on plan giving with older donors, but millennials are kind of, they’re in their forties now, this is a prime time to have conversations with millennials who are, you know, you know, been privileged enough to have some wealth to think about in terms of giving the charity. And they have all this competition, as we mentioned, they could, you know, give it to go fund me or whatever form that you could try to develop that relationship now with them. And if you can, if you can develop and use the same tools that you engaged older folks and use some of those tools and bring in some of your younger folks that you previously engaged to be working for the organization as well so that they can have these discussions with donors for their peers and age. And I think that is very valuable so that, you know, I’d [00:43:03.81] spk_0:
like to just put a point on it so that folks who know me and have heard me speak, you know, don’t think that I’m a hypocrite. Uh you know, in all the training I do, I’m talking about launching plan to giving and in launching planned giving. I think your, your time is best spent with folks who are 55-60 and over because they are the most likely to include you in their long term plan. I’m typically talking about wills. Um And they’re most likely that, uh they’re the most likely folks that will keep your gift in their will versus someone in their 30s and 40s who is going to live for another 50 years or so. That’s, you know, that’s a long, that’s a long time to be in someone’s will. So in launching, I, I, I think that the time is best spent talking to folks who are again, roughly 60 and over. But in, in out years of a program planned giving program, I can certainly see value in talking to folks in their thirties, forties. Um, the and, and doing that with, with peers. It’s, I, you know, it’s just, it’s as you’re suggesting there’s just uh there’s just a, a shared experience when, you know, a couple of 30 year olds are talking to each other versus me as a 61 year old consultant or even frontline fundraiser, talking to someone half my age about putting the organization in your will. [00:44:13.19] spk_1:
Yeah. And I agree with your point, tony when you have limited resources and you’re starting or initiating a planned giving program that age set that you, you gave makes the most sense for you. Um But it is, it is another point just to stay, think about engaging younger people. Um And on both sides, on the staffing side and volunteer side as well as on your donor side. Um And you know, think about groups that you can develop long relationships with. So when you want to finally, you know, if, if you’re constantly engaged with them for the next 30 or 40 years, you, you really feel that gift is going to be fixed, but yes, they could change their minds at any time. So it sort of demands that you make sure that you strengthen that relationship, you’re after year versus not giving them any touches at all. And in the way they like so that be using Gamification, social media, like other ways that they want to be engaged, you’ll have to find not the way that you feel as easiest or cheapest to engage with your, you have to find what do they want? How do they want to be engaged. [00:44:58.65] spk_0:
And this goes back to traditional lessons of fundraising that we want to be relational, not transactional. So you need to be relational with this upcoming uh cohort of generations, the ems and disease. Um because they are your future, your future major donors. If they’re not, now, they’re your future plan giving donors, they’re your future volunteers in retirement. I mean, you, you want to be this and this goes to the sustainability as well. You know, you want your mission to survive, you need to have a pipeline of donors that are not all 65 [00:46:13.65] spk_1:
and over. Yeah, and I’ll kind of relate fundraising to technology as well because, you know, our technology will dictate in some ways how we decide to fundraise. Like now we’ve got, you know, um we went from letter paper and pen sort of solicitations and in person contacts to okay emails and now emails are sort of we’re getting to a post email phase of like text messaging or, you know, and other forms now of communication. And how will that impact fundraising, crowd funding and other sort of platform type. Uh fundraising is now sort of encountering illegal uh barriers or restrictions or limitations. California being one of the first ones with laws that came into effect this year and regulations that will come into effect next year and that’s usually a harbinger of things to come in other states as well. So the laws are going to change, the types of fundraising vehicles are going to change non profits will be really wise to engage some millennials and Gen Z to understand where these things may go and how these laws may be influenced in terms of advocacy and, and, and making sure that, you know, one bad actor is not creating a whole bunch of restrictions that are going to impact like a lot of other charities that should never have been bothered by, by this [00:47:52.06] spk_0:
artificial intelligence, understanding what it is, what its uses are, what the boundaries are. We’ve, we’ve seen some institutions make big mistakes. Um There was, there was a college that reacted to the shooting at Michigan State University with a, with a, with a chat GPT email and then, and, and it was disclosed because they didn’t even think to take out the disclaimer that said created by chat GPT, you know, and, and uh what I can’t remember what college that was that it was not Michigan State. They were, it was a college reacting to the Michigan State shooting. Uh and, and doing it very badly, I think it was, I think it was Vanderbilt University, one of the, one of the colleges at Vanderbilt University. Um and it was even a D E I officer who sent the email. So, you know, not even thinking about, you know, inclusive language on our own, but relying on artificial intelligence. So, you know, the boundaries of artificial intelligence, the creative uses of it. Um, you know, concerns about deep fake ai, you know, that stuff is, that stuff is all relevant and it’s, it’s coming, it means here, it’s here. Now. It’s not coming. It’s here. And if you want to capitalize on it appropriately, I think it, it pays to have folks who understand it best and they’re probably not 50 or 60 years old. [00:48:50.08] spk_1:
Yeah. And I agree with you 100%. And again, wrapping this back around to charitable Itty, um, fake news. Um, is it charitable to distribute fake news? Is that just a viewpoint, is what we considered fake news 50 years ago? Something that actually is something that we think is generally acceptable now. Um, and isn’t charity supposed to be an incubator for these new ideas and, uh, changes? So it’s tricky. But again, we want to have multiple perspectives on this, not just sort of one generation’s perspective on this or just older generations perspective on this. We need to have the younger generation’s perspective because ultimately they’re going to be the ones that control that law [00:49:09.09] spk_0:
that feels like a pretty good place to leave things. Uh, is there anything else? But I’ll give you, give you a last chance. Anything we haven’t talked about that, that you want to, we, we have time if, if there’s something else you want to engage on, [00:49:49.72] spk_1:
um, maybe just my last thought is, um, for all the generations to respect, kind of what, what we all have to offer. And um this is not meant to be a criticism of older generations. Um uh It’s really meant to say let’s be more engaged. Um multigenerational organizations for sustainability, for understanding for perspectives and just to do uh our jobs uh in a way that’s uh aligned with our values and is as effective and efficient as possible. [00:49:59.39] spk_0:
Gene Takagi, our legal contributor, managing editor of the wildly popular nonprofit law blog. You’ll find that at nonprofit law blog dot com. His firm is at neo law group dot com and Jean is at G Tak G T A K jean. Thank you so much for your wisdom. [00:50:21.94] spk_1:
Always a pleasure. Tony Thank you. [00:51:05.80] spk_0:
Next week, Matt Scott returns with his new book, The High Growth non profit If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Donor box with intuitive fundraising software from donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others donor box dot org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez, Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.
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Friend. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your Aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. We have a listener of the week. Core Africa Liz Fanning, the executive director is a longtime nonprofit radio listener and core Africa just announced an investment of 59 million $400,000 over five years from Mastercard Foundation. And I think let’s just call it $60 million because the difference is a mere 600,000, which is trifling 1%. Core Africa. Congratulations to you. This is such a testament to the amazing valuable work of the core Africa volunteers throughout the continent. The dedication of the staff and the commitment of the board core Africa is going to expand to 11 countries with this new investment. Congratulations. Core Africa. I am so happy for you and happy to make you this week’s non profit radio listener of the week. Congratulations. Plus we have a new sponsor. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of Iraq Docks Icis if I had to see that you missed this week’s show. Ok. Boomer move over in only two years, millennials will make up 75% of the global workforce along with Gen Z. These will soon be the majority of your workers, your donors, your volunteers think sustainability. Are you engaging them now? Are they fully represented on your board? Gene Takagi talks us through the implications around philanthropy, technology, fundraising and more. He’s our legal contributor and the principal of Neo Law Group on Tony’s take 2 23 and TCC were sponsored by donor box. Welcome to Donor Box. Thank you so much for joining the non profit radio family. Very, very glad to have you. Thank you with intuitive fundraising software from Donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Here is okay. Boomer, move over. It’s a pleasure to welcome back Gene Takagi. You know who he is, but he deserves a proper intro. Nonetheless, he’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com and is a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at Neo Law group dot com and he’s at G Tak Gene. Such a good. It’s such a pleasure to see you. Welcome back. Welcome back. [00:03:41.20] spk_1:
Thanks so much. Tony Great to see you as well. [00:03:46.96] spk_0:
My pleasure. Always. Now, when we last talked, we were with Amy Sample Ward and there was a discussion that included the, the potential decline of Twitter and the rise of some alternatives. Are you still at G Tech on Twitter? And, and are you any other place that, that I should be acknowledging? [00:04:07.89] spk_1:
I’m still active on Twitter. I’m hedging a little and I’m on Mastodon and post, but those are sort of lightly used, but I post daily on all those channels. [00:04:20.41] spk_0:
Okay. So still stick with Still Twitter. The best way to reach you think [00:04:26.26] spk_1:
probably you wanted to see most of my content. Twitter is gonna be the best way to see you. Okay. [00:04:44.60] spk_0:
Okay. Stick with that for now. All right. Millennials and uh and generation Z, you’re, you’re concerned about the future for these folks. What? Well, high level view, what’s concerning you? [00:05:05.06] spk_1:
Well, it’s less concerned about these folks versus concerned about non profits for not engaging these folks because in a few short years by 2030 millennials and Gen Z will make up 75% of our work for, of course, they just crossed over the 50% barrier I think a couple years ago, but within seven years, 75% of our workforce, that’s a huge change in our, in our workplace [00:05:21.70] spk_0:
demographics and, and we’re not, we’re not accommodating these folks you’re concerned about uh for instance, board membership, um significant employment issues. What, what, what would you like to? I’m gonna give you the first shot. I let’s change things up because sometimes I feel like an autocrat. So, what would, what would, what would you like to talk first? Talk about first? That nonprofits are just not paying sufficient attention [00:06:26.96] spk_1:
to? Sure. Well, maybe I’ll just go without sort of criticizing nonprofits. Let’s just like, say, why should we as nonprofits engage millennials and Gen Z? Yes, they, they’re gonna make up a majority of our workforce. But what else does that mean? Um, and, you know, when, when they make up a majority of the work force, I think I’m also so saying, and I don’t have the studies to back this one up, but I’m also saying, eventually it goes to say that they’re going to make up a majority of our donors. They’re gonna make up a majority of the beneficiaries that we’re helping. They’re going to make up a majority of all of our supporters and our collaborators and eventually our generation Boomers, Gen X. Eventually we’re gonna kind of be not leading some of these places. Although I saw a really interesting article in the Atlantic a month or two ago that said, um people aren’t age, relatively young. Tony still still, but [00:06:46.92] spk_0:
I’m young, I’m young, I’m 61. So I’m among the youngest [00:06:56.32] spk_1:
boomers and I’m very close in age to you, Tony. And um the Atlantic article said that persons are age and even a little bit younger tend to think like we’re about 20% younger than we actually are. We kind of resonate with our maybe not our sort of calendar date but we feel like we’re a younger group by about 20%. Yeah, [00:07:23.70] spk_0:
I agree. I feel even younger than, than 20%. I feel like, more like 40. Yeah. And I, 20 years, like 20, 21 years younger, [00:07:33.53] spk_1:
I feel the same way. But it occurred to me in my head that maybe that’s why groups of leaders that are thinking about engaging younger people are not placing such importance in it because we think, well, we kind of understand that group anyway, we feel around that age, but when we start to, when we start to think about it, well, maybe there are some differences and maybe their perspectives and their skill sets and their experiences are going to really add value to our organizations [00:08:31.47] spk_0:
and it’s not even, it’s not even, maybe, I mean, they will, but we need to, you know, it’s time for us to sort of move aside. Um, but, yeah, now it’s very interesting gene that, you know, our own self perception, maybe confounding the larger, the larger culture slowly holding, holding back the larger cultural changes, you know, just because I feel like I’m 40 doesn’t mean that I have the awareness of technology politics, the culture that a 40 year old has. [00:08:33.25] spk_1:
Yeah, exactly. Right. And certainly not ones that I can tell you from personal experiences, like, from my niece is certainly not those, that 20 year olds. [00:08:42.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Not even claiming. Right. Of [00:08:49.81] spk_1:
course, of course, I just recall my niece is telling me this Miley face emoji is passive aggressive when I use that in text messages. So I have to watch myself in our communications. [00:09:33.28] spk_0:
So it is, I see. Okay. I had, I had my own anecdote about a story I used to tell that is now deemed misogynistic, but I was telling it for years in professional settings, not just in stand up comedy but in professional settings. Um Yeah. No, you’re right. All right. So we have to get past our own self perceptions and think about the larger culture, economy, nonprofit sector. Alright. Alright. Alright. So help us, I don’t know. Are we talking? I guess, I guess we’re talking here to the, to the, to the uh the obstructionists were talking here to the Boomers. Are we move aside? [00:09:38.97] spk_1:
Uh you know, a little bit um [00:09:41.88] spk_0:
like we are, I feel like we are, [00:11:43.76] spk_1:
yeah, especially to the extent that if you’re on a board or if you’re in an organization where your leadership is dominated by, by boomers um like ourselves, then, then, you know, maybe we have to think a little bit more about sharing power and authority and other things and not just to look better, like take a better photograph of our leadership, you know, for all, for all of these specific reasons, I’ll just raise a few right now. Um The laws changed and if the voting citizenry is changing in demographics, the laws are going to change to what they want them to change as within constitutional limits, of course. But even the constitutional interpretation is going to change as our Supreme Court starts to get younger. And I’ll cross my fingers a little bit on that. Um, but you know, what is charitable, um, you know, it started off as kind of relief of the poor. That’s what’s built into our regulations and then kind of expanded into, maybe we’ll civil rights can be charitable under five oh one C three. Um And then, you know, it expanded, although it’s not even stated in the regulations, the promotion of health being of five oh one C three, purpose and protection of the environment. Um Although I recall, I put in an application for a charity maybe 10, 15 years ago where global warming was something they wanted to combat. And the I R S asked, or at least this agent asked, you know, have you really looked into both sides of that issue because maybe if you’re just closing one point of view that it’s not charitable or educational at all. So, you know, our ideas have certainly evolved over what is and isn’t charitable and they will continue to evolve with younger people. Now again, making up some of the decisions of these and if we’re not anticipating these changes, then we’re going to be reactive, slow to react, possibly and less competitive in the very increasingly competitive field where philanthropy is also changing, right? What is philanthropy? Is it private foundations like it used to be? Um, we certainly know about donor advised funds. Yeah, please tell. [00:12:47.76] spk_0:
Yeah. No, before we, before we advance there because that is a rich topic, the different forms of philanthropy but sticking with, you know, regulations. What, what is a charity? What is charity? Uh you know, that all that all depends on the, the our, our political leaders. Uh, you know, recognizing that there’s because I’m basing it on, you know, U S code and U S regulations promulgated by the, by the different departments of the federal government and state governments. You know, those are all promulgated, promulgated by legislatures and, and I don’t use this pejoratively bureaucrats, you know, public service workers in government. And if, you know, I, I see the politics being especially slow to change, I don’t know what, I don’t know what the average age is of a U S senator or U S representative. But I’m certain, I’m certain it’s not, I’m certain it’s not in the forties. I’d be very surprised if it’s in the forties even. [00:13:07.02] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree. So our political system may be the slowest sort of, of the sectors to sort of change, although a lot of them are responsive to money. Right. Um, and we’ve been talking and kind of fundraising feels about the intergenerational transfer of wealth, the greatest ever in, in, you know, in the history of recorded civilization, I mean, [00:13:34.41] spk_0:
okay. So, right. So the Boomers do have some value, leave, leave us your money, leave, leave your money behind. We need to, we need to execute, we need that wealth to execute change. [00:14:18.80] spk_1:
And you know, as the Boomers sort of sort of aged out, the money is just being transferred into younger generations. And with that money now they’re going to influence political power as well. I’m a little cynical on this, but yes, money will sort of make changes or resulted in changes in the law, including in terms of what is charitable and just started to give you a hot topic. When we talk about relief, poor and civil rights being charitable. I don’t think that providing reparations to historically discriminated against or oppressed groups is considered charitable. But will that change over time? I don’t think selling solar energy at market rates is considered charitable to the general public. But will that change over time? I think these things can change fairly rapidly within a generation. So these are things that organizations need to pay attention to. [00:15:47.49] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Stop the drop with donor box. How many potential donors drop off before they finish making the donation on your website? You can stop the drop and break that cycle with donor boxes. Ultimate donation form you added to your website in minutes. No coding required, no batteries required. When you stop the drop, potential donors become donors with the four times faster checkout and more convenient ways to give from leading payment processors, apps and popular digital wallets. There’s no set up fees, no monthly fees and no contract required. And this is amazing. You’ll be joining over 40,000 U.S nonprofits donor box helping you help others donor box dot org. Now back to okay. Boomer move over. Interesting. Those are two really interesting ones. Reparations and alternative energy. Why did you, why did you uh I’m digressing a little bit. Why did you specifically say selling solar energy at market rates? [00:16:55.80] spk_1:
Well, you know, I think again when we’re talking about relief of the poor were also sort of expanding that into economic development in, you know, historically disadvantaged areas. So, you know, blighted areas, areas that need sort of more economic development, bringing solar into those areas that sort of low cost may stimulate economic development as well as having sort of the environmental benefit that solar can bring, that would probably qualify as charitable even now. Um But if you start to sell it at market rates and go into expensive neighborhoods and tell people to convert their, you know, their energy sources or to, you know, buildings, first class buildings in downtown and saying, hey, change your energy source as a charity that might have a tremendous impact on climate change and other things. Um, if we could get big companies to change and put into their buildings and charities could influence that. That might have a huge impact, but it probably wouldn’t be considered charitable right now. I [00:17:28.95] spk_0:
see. Okay. Okay, good. I’m glad I asked. All right. All right. Yeah. Reparations that it is kind of easy to see that in, in 10 years that reparations to African Americans, Asian Americans, Latin Americans that, that, those, those, that subject could be on the table for, for, for charitable, for, as a charitable purpose. [00:17:38.97] spk_1:
10 years ago, it was really not even in the discussion outside 10 years [00:18:16.12] spk_0:
ago. 10 years from now, 10 years from now. I think we’re, I think we’re in, I think the next 10 to 15 years are gonna be considerable political upheaval, cultural upheaval. There’s, there’s, I don’t know, maybe, maybe because, because I’m living in it. So I’m, I’m experiencing it as more volatile. Uh And I don’t mean that pejoratively more, more revolutionary than the transfer of wealth and uh power and prestige from other, other generations to two hours. I don’t, maybe because I’m, I’m the one surrendering the power. Maybe I see it as more, more of, more of a cultural shift than, than the past. Maybe the past has been significant as well. [00:19:41.84] spk_1:
Yeah. You know, and, and it’s interesting. So, you know, if you were to look up articles on engaging millennials and Gen Z, you know, they’ll mention like different perspectives, but they’ll also mention something like they’ve got a greater passion for social justice and things of that nature and, you know, I, I agree to some extent that that is true. I think we can see that. But then when I think back, you know, to the sort of the older boomers and, you know, the hippies in the 60s, well, maybe everybody when they were younger it was just a little bit more into, you know, the environment and social justice and racial justice. And as you age, you know, again, taking a little bit of a cynical viewpoint and certainly not to, to sort of over generalize, but as a big broad group, you know, you become a little bit less, a little bit more resistant to radical changes. Um, you know, especially if you’re in, in a comfortable situation, you’re privileged enough not to have to worry about it in your own life. The changes that you’re pushing for, maybe we’re not as radical as when you were in your twenties. Um, um, and I think you see that throughout the world, some major major social movements led by sort of college aged kids or young adults. Um, and they’re the ones that are putting it all on the line. [00:20:28.60] spk_0:
Your exact point has been driven home to me lately because I’ve been watching a lot of Woodstock videos on youtube and I’m thinking, you know, when, when they’re, when they’re showing the audience, you know, first of all, it’s fantastic because I’m watching Jimi Hendrix and The Grateful Dead and, but you know, when they, when they’re panning into the audience I’m thinking, are these folks, the folks who were sitting there in the, in the muck, you know, they’re now in their seventies and eighties, there was Woodstock was August of 1969. So, if you were 2025 or so, you know, your, your, into your seventies and, and if you were a little older, your, into your eighties, uh, talk about your perspective shifting from, from, from when you were in your twenties and thirties. [00:21:16.96] spk_1:
Yeah. And you know, we’re the same people but, you know, life, life changes and our perspectives change. And even though we identify with some of the perspectives that younger people bring, we, they’re still different, you know, as we sort of admitted at the start of it. And so just so many changes um that they have a different feel for or that they place with different importance in terms of climate change is maybe a classic example of climate change may not do as much to an 80 year old in terms of their personal life. Um But to a 20 year old, climate change may completely impact their adulthood and, you know, whether they are below the water where they live or. Um so, you know, obviously they’re gonna, they’re gonna have a greater incentive to ask for more radical change. And, you know, well, [00:22:00.24] spk_0:
hopefully these, these folks, the, the older boomers and the world war two generation. I mean, hopefully they’re thinking of their ancestors uh coming. Um, no ancestors are in your, your past. They’re thinking of their, their heirs and, and Children and grandchildren. I mean, at least the ones I talked to I think are considering those, you know, considering the future. [00:22:05.39] spk_1:
I think. I’m sorry, go ahead. No, [00:22:07.32] spk_0:
finish your point. Then I want to, I want to drill down a little more, a little more detail, but go ahead, please make your point. [00:22:12.46] spk_1:
Sure. I was thinking that it’s been sort of a customary thought amongst older generations to want things better for your kids that your kids would have a better life than, than you. But I think right now we’re kind of in the generation, the kids generations that are coming up like the Gen Z’s where that probably is not true, at least economically, um [00:22:52.46] spk_0:
at least economically. Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. We’re not. No, I agree. Alright. So you started to talk about different forms of philanthropy that uh I don’t know, call them Ems and Zs for millennials and Gen Z I know and your, your blog post, you call them younger people. Um I’ll call them Ems and Z’s but different forms of philanthropy, like donor advised funds, llcs were right there. They’re engaging a lot differently than direct gifts to 501 C three non profits. [00:25:59.70] spk_1:
Yeah, I mean, which places nonprofits, charitable nonprofits to 51 C, three organizations in a place of competition for dollars. Um So it’s something again that nonprofits need to understand. Well, what is the value proposition they offer? Because I’m really start advocate of nonprofits being something very, very special and very different from a social enterprise, that’s a for profit. And so social enterprise actually was a co opted term. I think social enterprises used to refer to nonprofits like goodwill that we’re engaged in sort of earned income revenues. But now it’s sort of been co opted by the for profit sector of for profits that do social good or social enterprises when that’s sort of a primary reason for their, their operation and their, their existence. So, you know, these models are changing and millennials. Hmcs are saying, you know, we’re a little bit more sector agnostic in terms of doing social good, we could put it into a private foundation, but we probably don’t want to, we might use it to ask because it’s temporary and we don’t have to throw everything into it. What about an L L C like Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan, like the Chan Zuckerberg initiative, the Emerson Collective, which is Steven Jobs, um widows, uh you know, charitable vehicle or philanthropic vehicle. So those are llcs and you know, you can go into a whole show about that. Go fund me is sort of an alternative to giving the charities a lot of people, especially in the millennial and Gen Z H think giving directly to a beneficiary is the way to go bypass charity. Um C Four’s we saw the Patagonia founder Yvon Chouinard decide I’m going to give leave much my wealth to A C four and I’ll do it. Now. There’s planning reasons to do that with gift and estate tax deductions being much more valuable to someone like him than an income tax deduction when you’re like a tech entrepreneur and you’re not taking much of an income, but you have enormous amounts of wealth and stock that have not been um liquidated yet. So you’re sitting on tons of money, but you don’t have much of an income tax benefit from giving a donation. Um This volunteer work and giving data data is now, you know, a huge asset and a very valuable one that we’re understanding and personally we’re giving up our own data to a lot of sort of I accept um you know, websites that all of a sudden get to use our data and I know new laws are coming into that, but volunteering your data can also be an impor the thing that we have to think about. And so philanthropy and how we think of giving is changing rapidly. And there was a big change in the law just a few years ago in the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act that left itemized deduct Ear’s um that can take get a tax benefit from charitable contribution. It moved from something like 34 For 35 down to like, less than 13%. Yeah. So there’s just tremendous changes that can happen very, very quickly. And charities need to understand that. And again, younger perspectives, maybe on top of some of this news that older generations may not be following this closely. At least some of them. [00:26:32.71] spk_0:
And you’re right to characterize these absolutely as competitors to our traditional five oh one c three nonprofits. And, and so you want to know what you want to know what your competition is doing, what these different forms are, are, are there, are there ways that you can leverage some of them? You know, maybe it is a subsidiary or some kind of an affiliate relationship. But you know, the knowledge is among the, the EMS and disease. [00:27:15.98] spk_1:
Yeah, I agree, tony there. These are not only competitors, they often can be collaborators and allies. Um But you do need to understand kind of the relationships, the multiple relationships that you’re going to have with these different types of entities and how that will impact who your supporters are, who your donors are as your donor base or is your subscriber base or is your membership base as they start to age? Are you engaging more younger people? So, for sustainability over the future, even if that was like, our ultimate goal is to make sure that we have an organization in the future, you’ve got to engage the younger people that are gonna be running this show, um, in a few short years [00:28:39.70] spk_0:
now, some folks may say, well, I can just, if I want to learn about these things, I’ll just engage a baby boomer attorney and he or she will explain or they will explain the, we’ll explain this all to us and then we’ll, but, but you’re not, you know, that’s be, that’s, that’s not what I agree with, but I could see a cynical view, well, just hire an older attorney. They understand llcs versus B corpse. And, well, you know, you know, the older advisers may very well understand the, the intricacies of, you know, creating one, but the creative side of how you can integrate it into your work if you can, you know, that, that takes someone who’s got a different perspective. And I think that’s, I agree with you. I mean, that’s the younger perspective, you know, how to creatively integrate, not just the nuts and bolts of how to LLC versus, you know, engaging a crowdfunding platform, you know, etcetera. [00:29:55.11] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think when we talk about negotiating deals with other parties, you know, have, you know, if we’re not speaking the same language and customs and don’t have that same type of comfort and talking with the younger generation, um, you know, something can get lost and on their side if they don’t have that comfort, talking with an older generation, if it just doesn’t mesh quite as well as when they’re talking with, appear in their age group or within sort of a generational group that can affect the negotiation. And, you know, whether the deal gets done or whether they go with a competitor or whether they, you know, ask for more things because they trust you less. So just, you know, getting more people involved and if you are going to engage millennials and gen Z, I really want to make the point that it isn’t about just adding a few people in certain positions. Um It is really uh an understanding and an investment um that you need to make. It’s something where you have to empower people, not just sort of tokenize them or trivialize their importance, you really have got to give them in positions of responsibility. Um And you’ve got to open up your own culture to sort of embrace the additional sort of cultures and perspectives they can bring. So it really can’t be just like, okay, we’ll add like a senior manager, we’ll add a board member that’s, you know, 32 that, that’ll solve our problems. [00:32:09.65] spk_0:
All the, well, all the caveats that you and I talked about when we’ve talked about uh diversity, equity inclusion, avoiding tokenism, you know, giving real authority, you know, levers of power, not, not just a higher here or, or a board member there. It’s time for Tony’s take 2:23 NTC. Big. Big thanks to Heller consulting. They’re sponsoring non profit radio at the conference, the nonprofit technology conference hosted by N 10, we will be together in booth 4 24. Hello, consulting, non profit radio Me, all three of us sharing a booth for 24. I will be capturing lots of interviews from the smart speakers at N T C and you should think about it to think about going, you can go hybrid. You heard Amy and me talk about it last week. It really is a very, very good conference. I mean, you can go virtually, virtually. Um It’s a very good conference, smart speakers. It’s fun. It’s just, it’s a very worthwhile conference to go to you. You will learn. Uh And of course, we know that this is not only for technologists but I’m repeating from last week. So all the info is at N 10.org. Thank you again. Heller consulting for sponsoring non profit radio at the nonprofit technology conference. Thanks so much. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got Boo Koo but loads more time for okay. Boomer move over with Gene Takagi. I’m taking pleasure in saying I’m sweeping myself aside. Move over. Let’s talk some about the employment, employment changes, you know, the sensibilities that, that the, the M S and disease bring. [00:33:59.34] spk_1:
Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s really hitting us right now because I think no matter what sector we’re in, we realize that employment has changed as a result of the COVID pandemic. Um We’re finding out what, where do workers want to work, how do they want to work? Um What is the most importance to them? And it’s not just sort of the data that we here, um you know, um from, from each other, but there are actual studies and I’ll just point to one, the Deloitte 2022 Y Z Global study. Um And you know, that that’s the study by the, you know, the big accounting firm and they found out what we probably already know, but cost of living is of tremendous importance um to, to these younger generations, work life, balance, learning organizations and what the organization, what they’re sort of, not only their viewpoint but how they operate and its social impact and its environmental impact and it’s sort of investment in diversity, equity inclusion. Those are things that matter to those younger generations in terms of, in their choice of work in terms of how long they might stay at a particular company. Um And, you know, those are things again and nonprofits are competing now, younger people are also moving from job to job faster than some older generations are used to. Whereas, you know, if, if we go older than us to a lot of people just worked one job their whole life. Um And that is certainly not true anymore. Um And it’s even less true now for the younger generations. So if we’re competing constantly for employees, what do we know? And understand what they want and need and consider important [00:34:58.67] spk_0:
and what they perceive about us as a place to work. There’s, you know, there’s, there’s glass door and, and, and those, those types of sites but, you know, the, the research is so much easier to do and even when they’re, when, when someone is talking to you about potentially working for you, they’re, they’re taking a lot more clues, you know, than just how much vacation time do I get? You know, what and what’s the, what’s the medical insurance like, you know, uh time off flexible work locations. Um culture, you know, that’s, and culture is a very, you know, that’s a very amorphous thing, but folks are sussing it out as they’re interviewing you and they’re talking to you and, you know, if they’re only meeting people who are 60 and over as they’re interviewing that, that, no, that in itself says a lot about the culture at the institution. [00:36:09.15] spk_1:
Yeah. And I’ll just sort of add even younger generation controlled companies um that, you know, and I’ll just do some of the big tech companies that are laying off like huge amounts of people right now. That’s a cultural thing that people will remember. Um So if you’re quick to lay off and you’re still like providing very good returns for your shareholders, um that may be something employees are going to sort of take into account in terms of whether they would go back to you know, the same company or whether they would tell their friends to work in that company and they’re much more savvy about our company’s greenwashing or sort of social good washing and saying, you know, talking the right talk but not really walking, you know, that walk. So, um, I think again, nonprofits really need to know what their competitive edge might be. Um, in terms of attracting workers and keeping workers because they’re dedicated to social good. But also what, you know, the, the issues might be if they’re not sort of um promoting the same type of values in their culture and not just sort of were a great organization for the environment, but we’re terrible to our employees. Like, you’ve got to really make sure your values mash, [00:36:27.22] spk_0:
where else would you like to go routine? What would [00:37:36.70] spk_1:
um you know, I was thinking just a few other quick points, you know, management and governance I think are also changing and that sort of goes with how employees, you know, want to be managed, want board of directors to sort of govern organizations, you know, our laws and the old and older structures are very hierarchical. Um You know, the board of directors sits at the top of the organization, they’re ultimately in control of all management and direction of the organization’s affairs. They delegated down to a CEO and executive director and executive director that is responsible for all the employees and there’s all these hierarchies of, you know, who gets to be responsible for. Um, and I think younger generations are much more into distributed leadership. Um, and it’s possible um to set up some systems within the law, the law is not completely sort of inflexible about this, but you’ve got to set it up in the right way. And so there is a balance of what some of the older people can tell you about the restrictions that are involved. But where the younger people could say these are the things that we really need. We, we don’t want just sort of one person dictating everything about the organization or a border that doesn’t know our day to day business coming and making huge changes that affects all of our work, you know, work lives. We need to have a voice in this and this is these are ways that we want you to consider it. So again, that’s [00:38:00.26] spk_0:
what does that look like jean some a model of distributed leadership. [00:38:42.81] spk_1:
So distributed leadership, maybe delegation from, let’s say, from the board down to the CEO and the CEO down to groups of employees and where the C E O S O is going, saying you’re responsible for this, you have the ultimate say on this. I’m not going to veto you as long as it’s, you know, within what are accepted framework is you get the ultimate say in this. If the executive director is questioning it, you know, it’s not the best business choice. They’re not going to overrule if that’s the basis of it, if it’s unlawful or something, because the director figures that out then of course they would have the power to overrule it. But, um, it’s not going to just be one person’s business judgment is going to be groups and that can work well. And that can also work terribly in a not great way as well. But younger folks are more attuned to that type of, you know, leadership model. We have to think about how it might work and how to fine tune it in a way that is acceptable and works well for an organization and, you know, and its board of directors as well to be comfortable with that, [00:39:10.93] spk_0:
that could even be something on a rotating basis. [00:39:59.58] spk_1:
Yeah, it can, it can be. But, you know, it actually, you know, one of the sort of big pros about this is, it gives collective thought to something that’s important where a lot of people get to put input that are intimately involved with the, that decision boards are sometimes somewhat removed because again, they’re not in the day to day, but this group of employees might actively day to day, be heavily involved with that particular issue and to give them decision making authority may feel them, you know, I’m going to use an old term, gives them ownership over the organization, they feel like they’re empowered and the organization is part of them and they are part of the organization. And that feeling is something I think that people desire. Um uh And again, management styles, governance styles are changing or, and the desire for more collaborative and distributed leadership is really a big force that I see coming in the next 10-20 years. [00:40:43.03] spk_0:
How about fundraising, fundraising, sustainability? You know, you started to touch on both of those um our, our donor base and I’m the guy who’s, I’m the evangelist for Planned Giving. But we have to also acknowledge, I mean, look, the baby boomers are not all dead, you and I are living testament to that. So there is still valuing plan to giving fundraising. But our older folks, donors are being replaced by younger [00:41:20.95] spk_1:
donors. Yeah. And I actually think so, you know, some charities are focused on plan giving with older donors, but millennials are kind of, they’re in their forties now, this is a prime time to have conversations with millennials who are, you know, you know, been privileged enough to have some wealth to think about in terms of giving the charity. And they have all this competition, as we mentioned, they could, you know, give it to go fund me or whatever form that you could try to develop that relationship now with them. And if you can, if you can develop and use the same tools that you engaged older folks and use some of those tools and bring in some of your younger folks that you previously engaged to be working for the organization as well so that they can have these discussions with donors for their peers and age. And I think that is very valuable so that, you know, I’d [00:43:03.81] spk_0:
like to just put a point on it so that folks who know me and have heard me speak, you know, don’t think that I’m a hypocrite. Uh you know, in all the training I do, I’m talking about launching plan to giving and in launching planned giving. I think your, your time is best spent with folks who are 55-60 and over because they are the most likely to include you in their long term plan. I’m typically talking about wills. Um And they’re most likely that, uh they’re the most likely folks that will keep your gift in their will versus someone in their 30s and 40s who is going to live for another 50 years or so. That’s, you know, that’s a long, that’s a long time to be in someone’s will. So in launching, I, I, I think that the time is best spent talking to folks who are again, roughly 60 and over. But in, in out years of a program planned giving program, I can certainly see value in talking to folks in their thirties, forties. Um, the and, and doing that with, with peers. It’s, I, you know, it’s just, it’s as you’re suggesting there’s just uh there’s just a, a shared experience when, you know, a couple of 30 year olds are talking to each other versus me as a 61 year old consultant or even frontline fundraiser, talking to someone half my age about putting the organization in your will. [00:44:13.19] spk_1:
Yeah. And I agree with your point, tony when you have limited resources and you’re starting or initiating a planned giving program that age set that you, you gave makes the most sense for you. Um But it is, it is another point just to stay, think about engaging younger people. Um And on both sides, on the staffing side and volunteer side as well as on your donor side. Um And you know, think about groups that you can develop long relationships with. So when you want to finally, you know, if, if you’re constantly engaged with them for the next 30 or 40 years, you, you really feel that gift is going to be fixed, but yes, they could change their minds at any time. So it sort of demands that you make sure that you strengthen that relationship, you’re after year versus not giving them any touches at all. And in the way they like so that be using Gamification, social media, like other ways that they want to be engaged, you’ll have to find not the way that you feel as easiest or cheapest to engage with your, you have to find what do they want? How do they want to be engaged. [00:44:58.65] spk_0:
And this goes back to traditional lessons of fundraising that we want to be relational, not transactional. So you need to be relational with this upcoming uh cohort of generations, the ems and disease. Um because they are your future, your future major donors. If they’re not, now, they’re your future plan giving donors, they’re your future volunteers in retirement. I mean, you, you want to be this and this goes to the sustainability as well. You know, you want your mission to survive, you need to have a pipeline of donors that are not all 65 [00:46:13.65] spk_1:
and over. Yeah, and I’ll kind of relate fundraising to technology as well because, you know, our technology will dictate in some ways how we decide to fundraise. Like now we’ve got, you know, um we went from letter paper and pen sort of solicitations and in person contacts to okay emails and now emails are sort of we’re getting to a post email phase of like text messaging or, you know, and other forms now of communication. And how will that impact fundraising, crowd funding and other sort of platform type. Uh fundraising is now sort of encountering illegal uh barriers or restrictions or limitations. California being one of the first ones with laws that came into effect this year and regulations that will come into effect next year and that’s usually a harbinger of things to come in other states as well. So the laws are going to change, the types of fundraising vehicles are going to change non profits will be really wise to engage some millennials and Gen Z to understand where these things may go and how these laws may be influenced in terms of advocacy and, and, and making sure that, you know, one bad actor is not creating a whole bunch of restrictions that are going to impact like a lot of other charities that should never have been bothered by, by this [00:47:52.06] spk_0:
artificial intelligence, understanding what it is, what its uses are, what the boundaries are. We’ve, we’ve seen some institutions make big mistakes. Um There was, there was a college that reacted to the shooting at Michigan State University with a, with a, with a chat GPT email and then, and, and it was disclosed because they didn’t even think to take out the disclaimer that said created by chat GPT, you know, and, and uh what I can’t remember what college that was that it was not Michigan State. They were, it was a college reacting to the Michigan State shooting. Uh and, and doing it very badly, I think it was, I think it was Vanderbilt University, one of the, one of the colleges at Vanderbilt University. Um and it was even a D E I officer who sent the email. So, you know, not even thinking about, you know, inclusive language on our own, but relying on artificial intelligence. So, you know, the boundaries of artificial intelligence, the creative uses of it. Um, you know, concerns about deep fake ai, you know, that stuff is, that stuff is all relevant and it’s, it’s coming, it means here, it’s here. Now. It’s not coming. It’s here. And if you want to capitalize on it appropriately, I think it, it pays to have folks who understand it best and they’re probably not 50 or 60 years old. [00:48:50.08] spk_1:
Yeah. And I agree with you 100%. And again, wrapping this back around to charitable Itty, um, fake news. Um, is it charitable to distribute fake news? Is that just a viewpoint, is what we considered fake news 50 years ago? Something that actually is something that we think is generally acceptable now. Um, and isn’t charity supposed to be an incubator for these new ideas and, uh, changes? So it’s tricky. But again, we want to have multiple perspectives on this, not just sort of one generation’s perspective on this or just older generations perspective on this. We need to have the younger generation’s perspective because ultimately they’re going to be the ones that control that law [00:49:09.09] spk_0:
that feels like a pretty good place to leave things. Uh, is there anything else? But I’ll give you, give you a last chance. Anything we haven’t talked about that, that you want to, we, we have time if, if there’s something else you want to engage on, [00:49:49.72] spk_1:
um, maybe just my last thought is, um, for all the generations to respect, kind of what, what we all have to offer. And um this is not meant to be a criticism of older generations. Um uh It’s really meant to say let’s be more engaged. Um multigenerational organizations for sustainability, for understanding for perspectives and just to do uh our jobs uh in a way that’s uh aligned with our values and is as effective and efficient as possible. [00:49:59.39] spk_0:
Gene Takagi, our legal contributor, managing editor of the wildly popular nonprofit law blog. You’ll find that at nonprofit law blog dot com. His firm is at neo law group dot com and Jean is at G Tak G T A K jean. Thank you so much for your wisdom. [00:50:21.94] spk_1:
Always a pleasure. Tony Thank you. [00:51:05.80] spk_0:
Next week, Matt Scott returns with his new book, The High Growth non profit If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Donor box with intuitive fundraising software from donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others donor box dot org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez, Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.
