Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%
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Tony’s Guests:
John Murphy, CEO of Zuri Group, Karen J. Collins, Zuri’s technical strategy consultant and Chris Coletta, social media coordinator for Conservation International, were my guests at Blackbaud’s bbcon conference earlier this month. They have strategies to boost your end-of-year campaign with planning; branding; leadership; and creativity. Now’s the time!
Our regular legal contributors, Gene Takagi and Emily Chan of the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group (NEO) answer these questions. How do you determine what’s reasonable compensation for executives? What happens if comp is excessive? What’s the automatic penalty that kicks in if you don’t disclose benefits? Plus, we’ll do a board role play. Let’s see who chairs the meeting.
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If you have big dreams but an average budget, tune in to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
I interview the best in the business on every topic from board relations, fundraising, social media and compliance, to technology, accounting, volunteer management, finance, marketing and beyond. Always with you in mind.
When and where: Talking Alternative Radio, Fridays, 1-2PM Eastern
Here is the link to the audio podcast: 113: End-Of-Year Campaign Coordination & Compensation Clarity. You can also subscribe on iTunes to get it automatically.
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Durney hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host, thanks very much for being with me this week. Um, i’m dedicating my show this week. Tio my dear friend dave, who i know has been suffering from depression for many years. And i just learned this morning that he took his own life and it’s very sad. I’ve never dedicated a show to anyone, but this one is for dave in north carolina. He leaves ah, beautiful wife kathleen and their teenage son. And this show is for him this week. It’s going to be the end of your campaign coordination. John murphy is the ceo of zuri group. Karen collins is zuri groups technical strategy consultant and chris colletta, social media coordinator for conservation international. There were my guests that blackboards bb gun conference earlier this month. They have strategies to boost your end of your campaign with planning, branding, leadership and creativity. Now is the time it’s the fourth quarter and also compensation clarity how do you determine what’s reasonable compensation for your executives? What happens of compensation is excessive what’s that automatic penalty that kicks in if you don’t disclose benefits. Plus, we’re going to a board role play let’s. See who ends up chairing that meeting between the guests on take teo tony’s, take to the value of a quest on i give a hungry man pastries on the subway, and it got me thinking, are you on twitter while you’re listening? You can use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us right now, we’ll take a commercial. When we return, it’ll be directly into my bb con interview on campaign coordinate end of year campaign coordination. Please stay with me, it helps to feel you out there today, didn’t didn’t, didn’t dick tooting good ending? You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. E-giving duitz joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten a m on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Sametz durney welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty twelve were outside washington, d c at the gaylord convention center and my guests now are karen yeager collins, john murphy and chris colletta. Karen is technical strategy consultant for zuri group that actually seated next to karen is chris coletta he’s social media coordinator, conservation international and at the end is john murphy, ceo of group. Please. Chris, why don’t you acquaint listeners with what conservation international workers? Thanks. Yeah, conservation international is, as the name implies, an international non-profit conservation organisation, we work in about forty different countries. Our mission is to protect nature for the benefit of people human well being a sort of at the heart of what c i does so, you know, protecting forests because they help us by climate change or protecting our oceans because they give us fish and, you know, products and things of that nature. So that’s what it’s all about what’s the annual budget there roughly about hundred million dollars? And if i’m wrong on that, you know, guide star will slap me down, but i think that’s about right, but nobody listens to this show way. John john murphy, what lies would you like to tell about the missouri what’s, the work they’re xero groups in online technology agency focusing on non-profit success? We’ve been partners with blackbaud for five years and worked with primarily with their customers, helping them be successful and filling gaps in their organizational. Okay, karen, what your seminar topic for the three of you was taking your end of your campaign outside the box is very timely. We’re in getting of the fourth quarter what’s, the what’s, the first piece, but i see you have for building the end of your campaign. What we’re trying to promote is that a lot of people have their end of your campaign one more begging them to plan for their end of your campaign as opposed to coming up on november first and not actually having a plan to go out to the biggest part about it is making that plan the other thing we’re what should we want to start that? Well, when did when did you start your campaign planning way? Started our campaign plan for this year at weeks ago, and it is today, october. Once we’re taping, you started planning. Just just a few weeks ago. I mean, you know, probably the beginning of august is when we sort of sat down as a group in earnest and really went for it, you know, maybe even earlier would be optimal if you have the time. You know, not everyone does, but certainly, you know, by, you know, this time of year, hopefully you’re pretty well along. If not, you know it’s. Ok, there’s still time you could do last there’s definitely things that you could do now, and you’ll be okay. But it’s going to move on so that’s, what we’re trying to promote is that planning and to plan early and then the outside of the box thing is, what can you do, teo to make sure that people choose to donate to you because you’re going to be inundated, everybody has an end of your campaign. So how to think outside the box to get you noticed. And then ultimately to cultivate that donor to your organisation as opposed to all the other ones that air filling their end boxes or filling their social media, new speeds and things like that. Okay, john, beyond you have the plan. But how do we start? Get some of these outcomes that karen is talking about executing the plan? Obviously so if you have to plan and most organizations start their plan, hopefully after last year, so january february rolls around and you’re starting to look, then what you’re gonna do that holiday season? And then you start implementing the plan. It usually kicks off right in the beginning of november, so organizations that look at holiday fund-raising you’re looking pretty much november one through december thirty one so that it could include black friday type e mails all the way through urine tax giving. All right, so what are some of the elements of this plan since the planet is so important? John it’s, it’s really a planning calendar so you you really start with a planning calendar, and you look at your database and you’re looking at how you’re approaching all of your constituents so you addressing them with direct mail or you’re addressing them with email, address them with phone calls or some type of event for a holiday season and that calendar than usually across all the organization we’re seeing organizations taking there, direct marketing efforts and putting him under a single point of focus so that they don’t get multiple people overlapping and spending extra resource is and during the time okay, chris, what’s up. How is some of this playing out of conservation international? How are you doing some of the things that john well, john, especially john is talking no, you’ve already done your planning. How does this work? What? John’s talking about working at cia? Great. Well, certainly, you know, i sort of want to stress that, you know, and are talking talked a lot about what? See i did last year. We work, you know, intensely was very group, you know, on some various things, one of the first things that we did is we actually built a map where people could go online and, you know, sort of show their support for conservation and not just show their support, but actually say why conservation matters to them. And, you know, sort of that was i like that because was very on brand is we need a teacher, and you’re going to tell us why and by the way, when you do that, of course, we’re also going to get your name. Andrew email address and your interests because you’ve told us why you care about nature and your twitter handle if you decided to post it. So making my life is a social media coordinator really great, because now i can go and i can, you know, match some of those folks with their twitter handles personally thank them, get them on board and hopefully start a relationship that you know eventually if they get enough content from us if they get enough good stuff, wait until the relationship so they become a donor just let’s just pursue that altum or whether it has to do with end of your campaign or not building from i do twitter relationship you get it, you get a handle, you have the information that you just you just described about a person, their interests. How do you take that relationship beyond twitter? Well, so social media in general, i sort of think of it as you know, you’re getting someone to say that they’re interested in you, whether they follow you on twitter, you know, like you on facebook follow-up board on pinterest reno look at your photos on instagram, whatever you know, it’s sort of platform agnostic. Whatever it is, they’re there because they have signaled that interest. Falik so, you know, then you had to ask someone out on a date they signal their interests. You actually, you know, start sending things about your organization. Um, and hopefully if you are giving them relevant content, what they care about, not what you think they need to know, but what you no, that they care about, because you’ve done your research and you’ve done your hopefully, you know, either, you know, ask people what they care about. You done focus groups, you know, in some other way, you know, following sort of best practices research ends, they get interested, then you can ask them, hey, you know, have you signed up for cia’s newsletter? You know, some of them will sign that perseus knew slater six months, they’ll get six newsletters and some, you know, start to get campaign e mails and they get enough campaign e mails and they like what they hear, then they’re going to make a donation, it’s all about getting your foot in the door with a person and then, you know, treating them, you know, sort of. In a very human, you know, personal way. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time, join me, larry shot a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio broke in the ivory tower. We’ll discuss what you’re born, you society, politics, business, it’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to go what’s really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry. Sure you’re neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower radio, dot com e every time i was a great place to visit for both entertainment and education listening tuesday nights nine to eleven it will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com karen, you want to say more about that? Not you nodding off a lot. You want to add to it? Absolutely, absolutely so what kristen has done with that math, it was called connect for conservation is what we did for that pretty campaign for them last year. Not only did they get their twitter handles, but they also got like he was saying to expand upon what the conservation connection was, there was options for health, there was options for climate, there was options for, you know, all different types of connections, and so what chris was able to do and what he was speaking on is now we know that not only they’re interested in conservation organisations, but they’re also interested specifically in climate, so therefore that was how chris was able to personally thank them on twitter, but then now we know that climate is their main concern, so the way that you cultivate and as chris a date that constituent and turned them into a donor is to listen to what that that attraction is to the organization and continue to hit on those spots so that then all of a sudden they realize that they’re not just somebody that has pockets that they could give two, but there’s somebody that you care about and you want to educate and therefore that makes them i want to better your organization and better your mission and that’s, what we’re trying to do here is not just continue bringing people in tow us, but to better our mission and to solve our mission and that’s how you do it through those touchpoint of social media, okay, and let’s, bring this back to the end of your campaign. What would we then do specifically with that person? We’ve given the information that we know? Absolutely so with the end of your campaign. What were stressing with that social media point is if you have somebody that you’re reaching out to via social media, you need to make sure that they know when you touch them and other organization or other outlets that they know that it’s for the same campaign, so the branding around that is really important. So if your hashtag in twitter is going to a certain level of detail than that needs to also follow through on facebook and the facebook brandy needs to follow the branding that you have in your e mails and your email, brandon needs to be on the landing page or the donate page that you have on your website. So we’re really trying to make sure people understand that it’s not just sending them to donate form. That’s been on your site for eleven months, it’s sending them to donate form that’s branded towards what your campaign is, regardless of whether it’s end of year or not, so that you can really bring them in and let them know that everything you’re doing is targeted towards something, whether it’s an end of your campaign or whether it’s a campaign to save the ocean, you know, so that’s, really where that planning comes in place is well, is that you make sure that all of your touchpoint are branded towards what you’re trying to do. John wants a lot more about the importance of brandon as it relates to the end of your campaigning or not just important co-branding friend of yours cause in general, or just, well, certainly toward fund-raising gold. I think when you brand mean, so if you’re branding this pacific campaign and then you bring your it’s really to attract a new face or in this case, it was more online people, right? So you’re trying to grow your list through these different types of brands and appealing to people where, what, what strikes them and what’s going to make them react to you so that you can then go on and foster that relationship going forward? Okay, so i think one of the things that conservation international did well last years, they thought of a brand that spoke their mission, so it was people need nature to thrive. And so that was the brand that that was underneath conservation international for their end of your campaign, which was so fantastic because it spoke their mission, but then it also gave them away toe brand the unique pieces that were connected to the end of your campaign to a smaller micro campaign that was still a part of the entire organizations goal and mission overall. And so they picked something, and then that theme carried through all of their channels so that people knew that when they were getting something that said people need nature to thrive when they hit the website. It also said people need nature to thrive, and they were able to kind of carry on that slogan throughout all channels so that they could whenever they had a touchpoint or whenever somebody interacted with conservation international, it’s stayed on that campaign and gave them a really fresh look without stepping away from their brand. John, it sounds to me like leadership is critical in this because we’re talking about talk about different departments working together exact about them were going to your heart striking to the heart of the mission. Yes, and you have me on that and leadership non-profits is sometimes very like a university where you have siloed leadership. Will you have different organizations that are responsible for certain budgets, and sometimes they don’t play nice with each other and you can see organizations where they do have overlapped, so have a unified front within an organization where there are looking too a goal going forward for this type of campaign is very important. So it’s gotta come from the top. Yeah, and that’s the way it using the right it’s just it’s the top saying here’s, your number, meet your number but it’s really usually two or three levels below the top where it actually gets implemented, where the plan actually gets put into place and that person is unifying the team to get the results, and so the top is sort of they want and number and when they don’t need it in there, you know, there’s things to pay, but you know that that is a struggle that we see quite often in non-profits so weii deserved you try to help also bringing that together, bringing fresh ideas, bringing the best practices that we’re seeing from the hundreds of clients that were working with that have the year and campaigns, and then helping them get through those hurdles and get through those home. Oppcoll yeah, i was just going to say that, you know, this sort of two conversations that were having, you know, about branding and about, you know, leadership in the case of conservation international, specifically last year’s you’re in campaign or sort of one of the same, um, you know, having a brand, a strong brand is important for any organization, whether you know is for-profit or non-profit or, you know, just a kid with a lemonade stand, you know, on the side of the street and so, you know, we really try and cultivate that twelve months out of the year, and people need nature to thrive is actually sort of cia’s tagline, you know, we sort of adopted it, and so when it came time to, you know, do a year and campaign, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel like we literally just made our tagline the theme of our year in campaign, and then we put it on everything because that’s, what we do and that’s what we believe and so, you know, this sort of leadership approved idea, you know, sort of the core see i’m messaging is what we call it, you know, internally, you just have to tweak it a little bit and, you know, use it to fund design things and, you know, make sure it sort of has a visually consistent identity and that you’re telling compelling stories and all of a sudden you have yourself a year and campaign and the thing that i like about that is that when if you do have that trouble of siloed if you do have a campaign that has a specific theme, even if your direct mail team is on a completely different side of the building or is, you know, not even in the same office building as your media team, then because you have that common theme, even if you are silent and you’re working through those blocks that you’re trying to break through, if you have that common theme that gets hit onto your direct mail piece or gets put onto your social media board or gets set up on your donation form all of a sudden least it looks upon appearance that you are branded and cohesive, even if, on the back end you’re working with suri group or working with somebody else. Teo, get that strategy together so that all of those silos are speaking to each other. Karen, what else should we be saying about bring it back to end of your campaigns that we haven’t talked about yet? One of the things that we’re trying to do so that the title of the talk is thinking outside the box so we’re trying to get people to look at what they’re doing now. And maybe do something a little creative, so we’re going to talk about a couple of organizations, especially conservation, international and all they did something unique that helped them stand apart from all of the other organizations that are going to be fighting for the same donor’s because you, you know, there’s only so many people out in the world, i know we have over seven billion, but of those you are going to be fighting with organizations, not just the same ones of your mission, but just all organizations for those donors and there’s only so many dollars out there, and you want to win as many as possible for you. So what can you do to be unique? And so we’re going to give some ideas, and then our hope during the session is to get people to brainstorm together so that maybe they leave the this session with that one piece that’s going to make them creative. Are there more ideas that we haven’t talked about yet that you plan to share tomorrow? Absolutely. Well, okay, well, who wants to wants to throw another one out? I’ll go ahead, since you know we’re going to be talking. About some of our stuff, you know, just one of the things that we did, everyone has a light box at the end of the year, you know, you get a gun organization’s website and it pops up and you know, it says either you donate or, you know, you know, take this, you know, activist direction latto light boxes, okay, yeah, yeah, sure, let’s back-up said so i don’t have to explain why rebecca, because on tony martignetti non-profit radio, we have drug in jail, i am in charge in jail. The youngest may be the youngest, i’m not sure, but wait to have anybody drug so quick, quick parole, if you’ll explain what a light boxes so i will exercise my get out of jail free card and say that a light box, if you, you know, let’s, think of it it’s, like, sort of a non annoying pop up if you go to a website, if you go to most non-profit websites, i suspect you’ll see some right now as they’re getting ready for the end of your campaign, you know, will pop up sort of, you know, transparently, you know, over the main page and it will have, you know, a message, you know, and that message might be donated. Might be please take this action, you know, like save the whales cia doesn’t really do save the well stuff. I don’t know, i said that, but it just sort of came to mind what all of whales and you connects out of it and just go to the main site, okay? So you’ll see a lot of that a year and, you know, because we’re trying to get folks attention right off, you know, we don’t want them coming to our website and, you know, doing other things, you want him paying attention. John has something that was going to say a light box is a very good year at strategy. I mean, as far as gathering email addresses and growing your list prior to your end, to give you new people to connect with as part of your plan, lightbox has been very successful. Okay? Okay. Good christmas. Yes. So i’ll be quick. So it’s, you know, sort of a china tree strategy using light box. What we did is, you know, we had designed for us a light box where it was sort of tiled photos of both people and, you know, biodiversity, species, animals, and they literally started disappearing when you came to our site, you know, it said, i believe ignore them and they’ll go away that is using sort of an old classic and just putting a little bit of a creative twist on it, and that was an extremely successful both, you know, acquisition and fund-raising tool for us because it’s so emotionally powerful over northern, they’ll go away and, you know, just little things like that is what we want to really stress, you know, what our panel is? It doesn’t have to necessarily be something crazy, you know, you don’t need but with a clown, you know, sort of running all over your fund-raising marketing who knows things just i need, you know, some clever ideas that air on brand that, you know, sort of expand on, you know, best practices, you know, that the industry that you know you’ll get to hear, you know, places like we begun, okay, john, you want to wrap up, we just have a minute or so because you have to you have to depart shortly, so i’ll give you i’ll give you the parting words around end of your campaign. I think if you don’t have an end of your campaign, you need one and you need to plan and execute it, and the creative strategies are are sort of our this sizzle to the steak, right? So you need to do the creative strategy to drive and grow your grow your campaign’s awareness and get people more excited. And in this case, there last year is very successful, and i think it tapped into a different audience and your standard non-profit donating audience and i think also serbia murder is part of your campaign is you don’t necessarily only have to ask for money, you can ask for people to volunteer and participate in your organization in other ways as well. That was john murphy he’s, ceo of zurich group on seated next to him is chris coletta, social media coordinator, conservation international and next to me is karen collins, technical strategy consultant for the jury group or thank all fever for being guests. Thanks very much. Real pleasure. Thank you. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of pecan twenty twelve my thanks to everybody at b become earlier this month got live, listener love going out san francisco. I think i know who they are. You better be calling in shortly. Carpinteria, california, or carpinteria, california. Welcome, charleston, south carolina, and new bern, north carolina, which makes me think of my dear friend dave, also arlington, virginia. We got the coasts covered, west and east live, listener love out to all those folks. Right now. We take a break when we come back, time for tony’s, take two, and then our regular legal consultants, gene and emily, join us to talk about compensation. Clarity. Stay with me. Talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot, or or a h a n j dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll lively conversation. Top trends. Sound advice, that’s, tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m samantha cohen from the american civil liberties union. I got more live listener love going out. Tokyo, japan. Welcome. Welcome back took it was frequent listener welcome back. Tokyo tony’s take to my block this week is the value of a cross on on the subway. I gave a hungry man some a bag of pastries that i had bought for a client. Teo cut up and, you know, putting their kitchen for them tio tohave during the day. And when he asked me if i have anything that that he could eat, i looked at the bag and i realized that it would i mean a lot more to him than it would to my client. So i gave him the bag of pastries, and and he enjoyed it. And it was it was actually it was very touching. He afterwards, ah, he looked over his shoulder and gave me, gave me a thumbs up, and i gave him a a wink back and what? It reminded me of his how much i have and how much a tiny, tiny fraction of what i have would mean to so many people who have so much less than what i have and trying to be more conscious of. That because there is there’s no there’s abundance in my life and it’s easy to take it for granted. And that subway episode ahh brought me back. T recognizing how fortunate i am tryingto stay conscious of that more often and there’s a little more on that, my blogged the post is the value of a quash sewn on my block. Is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, the twelfth of october and the forty third show of the year. Right now we have jean takagi and emily chan on the line. We have them, don’t we both excellent. Jean is principal of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular blawg at non-profit law block, dot com and he’s at g tak gt a k on twitter. Emily chan is an attorney at d’oh and she’s, principal contributor to the non-profit lob log she’s the american bar association’s twenty twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer and you can follow emily at emily chan at emily c h a m a million gene welcome back. Hi, tony. Hi, tony. Good to have you back. We’re talking this month. About compensation because it seems to flow from what emily and i talked about just a couple of weeks ago. So, emily, why don’t you? Why don’t you lead us into this from from last month? Sure, so are lots. So he talked about the private benefit rules as a tea ad buy squeezed in a very big phrase there the preventable cruise up to the reasonable miss, and we’re going to get not this show, but basically we’re going to look at the penalty that the irs usually will impose when they find an inappropriate benefit going. Teo insider as we talked about last week, ok, so now we’re really looking at, i guess, practically speaking, the kind of penalties that organizations should be very knowledgeable about and also very wary of so that they could follow the best practices and make sure they’re protecting their organizations. All right, you were cutting out a little bit, emily, but we were able to fix the sound quality. Just say that. Say that. Say that very, very rich and wordy phrase again from from last month that will talk more about just say that again because you cut out a little. Bit there, rebuttable presumption of reasonableness. All right, we look forward to getting into that gene. What are the general guidelines for compensation for? And who are we talking about? Whose compensation are we talking about? And what of those general rules? Well, practically speaking, we’re talking about the compensation of the executives. So that would be the executive director or ceo or president and of the cfo or treasure the organization has compensated. Chief financial officer. Okay. And what are the rules generally, that just that it has to be fair and not excessive, that that’s practically the rule, tony. So it can’t be excessive and and the way we try to judge that is we try to look at what comparable organizations air paying. And so the big question is, what is a comparable organization and what is a comparable position to compare? You know who we want to pay another organization and what they’re paying. Let me throw something interesting. Least interesting, too. May our maybe you had illegal minds may not find it interesting, but but i do. Over here, um, you said it’s only for executives, but what i see in ah lot at colleges. And universities, the highest paid people there are often coaches. Sports coach is like a basketball football coach at at a big big, you know, big name program does does this this excessive compensation apply to them? Also are on ly to the executives of the organization that’s a great question, tony. Thank you. We’ll bring you back next month. Thank you. Drinking area. When we’re talking about big institutions like colleges and universities and healthcare systems and big non-profit hospital, the range of what we call disqualified persons or insiders definitely goes up. People have substantial influence over the organization or a particular segment of that organization. So football coaches will probably be drawn in into that equation when they have a huge influence on on the institution itself. Okay, there are just more general rule beside the what we call the intermediate sanction rule their excess benefit transaction rolls the night i go into jargon deal for that. Oh, my god. Yeah. All right. We’re gonna get to that stuff, parent and broader doctrines that you could get in trouble for as well. Okay. Broader than just the executive. So it’s so it’s those who can exercise ah. Lot of control over the organization, wherever they are, wherever they are in the hierarchy. That’s a good way to think of it. Okay, cool. That’s the late person. I’m gonna turn it on. You wouldn’t know it the way i talk. Okay, let’s. See, what is this intermediate sanction? Emily what intermediate? To what? What’s, the more extreme. So the more extreme penalty comes from the world. We have that last month with private benefit private kermit, we’re technically really the penalty is reputation of sabat on that thing’s pretty severe, especially benefit confirmed it was only a little bit more than what it should have been. So what the irs produced then was something that they called their intermediate sanctions. Also the excess benefit transaction will, which instead of replicating tax exempt status, so actually impose a penalty tax on that access benefits so it can be imposed both on the insider who benefited. And it usually starts with a twenty five percent penalty talks with the excess amount, but also boardmember should know that they can also be taxed of ten percent of the excess amount if they knowingly, i’m approved. Ok, knowingly mean let’s, just stick. With compensation at this point, let’s not let’s, not get too the xx of benefits. We’re just talking about direct compensation, cash, cash compensation. So so boardmember sze, who knowingly approved it meaning meaning they knew that it was excessive, right? So they have actual knowledge of the transaction. And when i use the term access benefit, i don’t mean the stuff on top of what say base salary, just an excess benefit itself, which could be a large compensation. Oh, the way that i used that term in the way that fused with the rules. So um and boardmember, who would be considered knowingly approving such a transaction, would be someone who knows the terms of the transaction. I’m also aware of the possibility that that transaction might be excessive in violation of this excess benefit. Transactional, i’m and also, you know, failing to make those reasonable tends to figure out whether it is actually excessive, but this goes back to the fiduciary duties of directors and making sure that there, meeting their duty of carrie’s, loves their duty of loyalty and making sure that they’re making informed decisions and that it is in the best interest of the organization. By not saying something. That’s excessive. Okay, and we have talked about those those duties, those fiduciary duties previously can can. These penalties that are levied against boardmember is, can they? Can they be paid by the organization? Generally, no. So this would actually be triggered under state law of there are provisions that have to do is indemnification, which is the organization’s ability to cover expenses that would come out of situations like this. They’re being stewed in your capacity as like an officer, a director of the organization on dh. Generally, that probably not going to be okay under state law, no matter what. Okay, okay. Let’s. See? Okay, gene let’s, let’s. Turn to you and let’s talk a little about the this the rebuttable presumption of reasonableness that emily mentioned before. What? What what’s that how does that play in here? So these procedures are useful wherever you’re no good for you know that you’re going to compensate one of these insiders amount that is not obviously way below market level, but you should go through these procedures just the general rule. Anyway, if you’re anywhere near paying market rate compensation and their three step, the first step is getting advance approval by the board of directors before you enter into that compensation transaction. Actor thie interested party if there’s uninterested director in there is going to be compensated, obtained from that boat and does not participate in that. Okay? And that would include a gn executive officer who’s who’s on the board. Because of that position, ex officio boardmember they should they should abstain as well if we’re talking about their compensation. Right. Okay, so you get the advance approval with with the abstention of the person who’s involved what it would else duitz step two is reliance on appropriate comparability data. So we’re looking at comparable salaries from similarly situated organizations for similar positions of similar work. So it’s all about getting the right comparable. It might be done through salary surveys, working with professionals that our salary experts in the non-profit mary-jo or maybe looking at form nine nineties, they’re different concerns about just taking other organizations form nine nineties to make sure that the right comparable but a lot of smaller organizations do it that way. What what are those? Well, before we go on, what are those concerns about using the nine? Ninety? Well, they might not reflect in the nine, ninety special payments and vesting of, like deferred compensation. So some organizations may look like they’re playing a really high salary, but those were just the result of past. Things that have been obligations that were paid in the reporting year. So you can’t really consider that a part of the the annual salary, for example, of that executive that showing on the nine, ninety that would not be good. Comparable. Okay, so, i mean, can a small charity avoid having to hyre ah, compensation expert to do these comparability surveys? What are the other ways? Or maybe there is no other way. Well, there are some compensation surveys that are out there for free as well. You confined things from charity navigator. And i believe guys start might have some some compensation norvig wolber free. You have to be careful, though, because sometimes the ranges of the size of the organization don’t play in your favor. So, you know, they may say, well, this is the average compensation for organizations with annual budget between one million and ten million. And depending upon where you fit in that structure, using the average may not be appropriate for your organization. Right? Okay. Okay. Um, and then add a couple more things to the comparability that it’s? Because you brought a small organization a general rule for organizations with less than one billion and gross receipts toe have at least three. Comparable. So it’s. Not necessarily this. You know why spread search for comparability data. But tow have three is generally considered reasonable. And another thing to consider is this really just giving you an idea of the band with a salary that’s out there, but it would be problematic. Front organizations just look based purely on numbers and decide. Ok, just because it’s it’s in the band with that that’s appropriate on that kind of goes back to your example of the football coaches where sometimes just so you that if you keep pushing the upper limit of the band when you just start to see these ranges leaves up and up and you really do need to look at the performance and the duties that are being like that? Yes. Okay, of course. The right, the person’s performance as well. Not just what other people are paying somebody similar in a similar organization. Okay, thank somebody. Thank you. Look at the geography. Because i know in manhattan in san francisco, where we are the average salary’s going to be much higher than somewhere in des moines, iowa. Yeah, okay. Okay. And there’s one more part to the rebuttable presumption. Can you can you explain that in about a minute? Gene? Yeah, the third part is just timely an adequate documentation of the board action. So that means really putting it down in the minutes on getting those minutes approved by the next board meeting. So you just want to make sure that you’ve documented it and if you’ve got comparable, attach the comparable to the minutes to prove that the board has actually looked at these before making that determination and approval. All right, now that we’ve explained the three prongs of the rebuttable presumption gene, please explain what the hell a rebuttable presumption is that’s great, what what it does is it shift the burden from your organization have to prove that the salary is reasonable and shift it to the irs to prove that it’s unreasonable, which the irs doesn’t want to do because it takes a lot of work. So if you just go through these procedures, you kind of put a big barrier to the irs to go after you brew for paying excessive amount because you say i’ve used the procedures that treasury regulations have approved. This is the way it should be done in the iris used to get it back off at that point, unless they think they have a really big fight. So then write if you follow these procedures, the compensation is presumed to be reasonable. But the irs has the option, although it it’s unlikely that it would exercise it to rebut that presumption and try to prove that the compensation was unreasonable. Is that right? If they want to take it to court if there were. Okay. Okay. Likely. Okay, but it’s presumed rash reasonable if you follow the three prongs that you laid out, correct. Okay, we’re going to take a break. And when we come back, jean and emily and i are going to a little role play exercise, we’re going to be the board of directors and we’re going to decide on somebody’s compensation. Um, i don’t know one of you two is going to chair the meeting, so you’re welcome over this break to figure out who that’s going to be and i’m going to be a boardmember and then the other person be boardmember too. So stay with us for that role play. Exercise don’t know. What’s going to happen. I hope you’ll stay with us. Talking. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance, focus and motivation? Than you need. Aspire, athletic, consulting, stop second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it aspire, athletic consulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business, why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Durney i got more live listener love laurel, maryland bend, oregon, and tokyo. Welcome to our second listener in tokyo. We got more tokyo listeners than we have oregon or south carolina or north carolina listeners maurin tokyo than, uh, most other states listening. Okay? Jean emily, we’re talking about compensation, compensation, clarity, and we’re going to our role play board board meeting now. Who’s the chair. I’m okay. Genes. The chair. Emily, you and i are board members or way just regular boardmember zor is one of our compensation under discussion or what? I think we’re about boardmember okay, but neither of us has our compensation under consideration. We removed that person’s removed. Okay. All right, go ahead. Jean. You’re gonna share the meeting. Okay, tony so right now we’re talking about approving the compensation of the candidate who is going to be our executive. Wait a minute. We didn’t approve. We didn’t prove last month’s meeting meeting minutes. What kind of what kind of foisting? Of ah, fake what? We didn’t approve last minutes less months. Meaning melkis consent agenda earlier, tunney and now we’re on the second part of our meeting. We’re okay. All right, go ahead. I’m taking my time, taking my fiduciary duty very seriously. I don’t care, loyalty and what’s my third fiduciary duty. Besides karen loyalty, a lot of people like this, they obedience obedience. Okay, well, i’m not all right. Well, i mean, i’m failing on three, but but i’m taking my first two very seriously. All right, go ahead. Emily. Emily obviously doesn’t care, but she’s like lester, let me see lackluster boardmember i hope your term is up soon. Emily all right, okay, so we’ve got an executive director that we need to hire, and this executive director is pushing us for a salary of one hundred thousand dollars and the possibility of bonuses of up to twenty thousand dollars for pizza. We’ve got a million bucks in our budget, and we’re not really sure whether approve this compensation or not. He looks like a great candidate, but there’s some other candidates out there as well. What do you think, tony? Should should we hire this person that the salary they’re asking for? Well, do we have any comparable data by organizations that are similar to ours? Go thin geographics and also annual budget on dh with that data also be comparable in terms of this person’s responsibilities. Emily, i think you were convicted. You right? Collecting this data? Yeah. So i researched some organizations that of similar type similar size and similar roles of executive directors. And i found three different data points. So, uh, one and these they’re all in our geographical area. One is eighty thousand one. Report ninety thousand and another one report. One hundred and ten thousand. Okay. We’re looking at one hundred thousand with the possibility of a twenty thousand dollar bonus. What do you think, tony? Um, i guess the bass sounds or so we have. Eighty ninety. First of all, i’m assuming that emily knows what she’s doing when she says that these things are similar. And i’m putting a lot of faith in her because i could be personally liable if this turns out to be excessive compensation. Um, only if you know that it’s excessive, sonny, but that’s. All right, that’s. Right. Ok. Raise a good point about the line. What do you need? A reliable source. Okay, well, your outstanding young lawyer. So i’ll assume that you’re on. You’re on the board. Very in doing this. Surveys what i brought. To the board meeting, and we’re going to attach them to the minutes of the okay, i like the i’d liketo like the base of one hundred. I’m not sure about the extra bonus of twenty family. What do you think about that extra bonus of twenty when the high of our comparable is only one ten? I don’t think it’s necessarily problematic if we have adequate justification for allowing that for example, if thiss opportunity with this executive director is probably going to pass us by, we are in a bind because we’re now doing an executive director succession that we didn’t anticipate and the organization’s going to be really hurt if we don’t find somebody who’s qualified and this is the most qualified person we found and we’re actually getting a really good deal for this person and it is discretionary, so it’s going to be up to the board at the end of the year and we have put a limit on it, you know, maybe we should evaluate again looking at our revenues and looking again at the comparability data whether twenty thousand is reasonable, but i’m not opposed to putting the opportunity of a bonus. Into the contract right now, that’s. A bunch of malarkey. I’m walking out of this meeting. Did you hear me? Did you? My footsteps and i just slammed the door closed, proposed i’ll ask to see if there’s a motion to approve a one hundred thousand dollars based salary with a possibility of a ten thousand dollar bonus. And we will actually look at the possibility of a further ten thousand dollar bonus if we hit certain revenue goals that might allow us to look at other comparable, do you think that’s reasonable? All right, i’ll come back into the meeting. All right? I’ll go along with that. We have to wrap up our meeting very quickly. Yes, i would approve that. Okay, so then we make the most of it. Tony wilbekin were approved way as we wrap this up, being the diligent boardmember right? And just a reminder that we need to have adequate documentation and our board minutes. So i’m going to write down the terms of the transaction. We approve the date it was approved, the board members that were present during the debate. Who voted. I’m not going to attack the comparability data on there and as well document the fact that we followed our conflict of interest policy and removed the executive director from the conversation that was emily chan she’s, a maternity at neo, the non-profit exempt organizations law group and our board chair was jean takagi he’s, the principal of neo. You’ll find them both blogging at non-profit law blogged, dot com, gene and emily, thank you very much. My pleasure. I hope you will be here next week because we’ll be talking about leadership with normal sanski he’s, a consultant and co editor of you and your non-profit that’s a book and he shares his advice on non-profit leadership, his premises. Everything starts with leadership also linked in news. Maria simple, the prospect finder and our prospect research contributor, has two new offerings from linked in board connect to help you find the right people to serve on your board. Hopefully you get better board members and we just had and reasons to call, reveals touchpoint for making contact with the people you want to talk to have you joined are linked in group pakistan is in, i’m telling you, pakistan is a member. Are you in the lincoln group along with pakistan? Continue the conversations with our guests in the lincoln group i’m on twitter you can follow me the show’s hashtag is non-profit radio. I’m also on foursquare. We can connect any of those places. Check us out on facebook next week i will have a new way to wish you good luck the way performers do around the world have been doing this for weeks. So right now you’re still with last week, i’m wishing you a nail in your tire from estonia. No, comey, our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer. The show’s social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules today’s show dedicated to my dear friend dave. Ironically, what i remember about him most is his laughter and his smile. I’m very sorry, dave, that you were suffering so much hope you were with me next week. Friday one to two p, m eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hyre durney durney i didn’t think that shooting. Good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get anything. Cubine hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. Buy-in you’re listening to talking alt-right network at www. Dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication. And the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. The website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment. 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