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Special Episode: Tech Equity

My Guest:

Amy Sample Ward: Tech Equity

Amy Sample Ward

NTEN has a new guide on equity for nonprofit technology, to deepen the racial equity conversation. To explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and nonprofits. You know who my guest is. You know who it has to be. Amy Sample Ward, NTEN’s CEO and our technology contributor.

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[00:01:31.24] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special episode of non profit radio to help you be the change around racism and white privilege. Tech Equity and 10 has a new guide on equity for non profit technology to deepen the racial equity conversation to explore and reveal intersecting inequities between technology and non profits. You know who my guest is? You know who it has to be. It’s a me sample ward and tends CEO and our technology contributor response erred by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives, raise more money, change more lives for a free demo and a free month. It’s my pleasure. Always a privilege to welcome Amy Sample Ward to the show. She is our social media and technology contributor and CEO of her most recent co authored book is social Change Anytime everywhere, which is actually running a little old Now you’ve been resting on that laurel for a while.

[00:01:34.73] spk_0:
I was gonna say the same thing. I was gonna say, Gosh, I just looked at the book the other day and saw how many years ago that came out. I think we have to like, we gotta find some other filler sentence for that intro.

[00:01:48.29] spk_1:
Oh, you don’t want to write a new book. We just

[00:01:50.23] spk_0:
What? What? What is there? What would I write a book about? You know?

[00:01:56.14] spk_1:
Oh, you’re a bright person. Oh, there’s more to say about technology. You could go deeper into technology subject, but it’ll be a lot easier if tony-martignetti just changed your intro.

[00:02:06.05] spk_0:
Yeah, then there’s no like writing.

[00:02:16.94] spk_1:
Alright. No six months of writing, collaborating, finding publishers. None of that imagine. Imagine the eat that I could let you off the hook with on Dhe. You’ll find her, of course, at Amy Sample Ward dot or GE and at a me RS ward, the not so recent author. Any simple words?

[00:02:26.34] spk_0:
How you doing

[00:02:26.76] spk_1:
out there? Portland,

[00:03:27.24] spk_0:
You know, after feels, I think it feels kind of moment to moment in Portland. Whether it’s Portland, especially inspired or scared or motivated or ready to just hunker down in the house and never leave again. You know, it’s kind of Ah, a many front situation happening in Portland right now between fires and protests. And cove it, of course, and so many things. So you know, it’s it’s interesting to visit as a team, and 10 has 15 staff and nine of us are in the Portland metro area and six are all over the U. S. So, um, you know, we’ve got staff in Seattle in San Francisco and New York and all these other places, so it feels like every day when staff meet, you know, there’s there’s kind of, like our correspondents out in the field reporting in from all the different the different corners of all these different issues, you know, And it kind of helps everybody feel connected and informed in, like, a real way versus Oh, I saw this random article that got tweeted. You know, it’s like, No, you’re really in that city. What’s it feel like? You know,

[00:04:02.44] spk_1:
you’re the 1st 30 minutes of your staff meetings were probably what’s happening in San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Right in Portland for those outside. Yeah. Um, okay, let’s talk about equity equity and technology

[00:04:06.94] spk_0:
sounds again.

[00:04:11.64] spk_1:
So how did N 10 get into this guide.

[00:06:35.54] spk_0:
Well, since we’re talking about this for the whole show, I’ll tell you the long story version and that is that a number of years ago, actually, in 2016 a tw the end of that year you may remember something of note happened that has shifted some of the direction of our country and we twice a year. All staff have, like, come together in person. If you could remember what what being in person with other people was like on the board also has to in person meetings a year and at the staff and the board in person time. At the end of 2016. We did this kind of like a visioning exercise, But it’s not the type where we were trying to create a new strategic plan envisioning specific toe intend, but mostly saying, like, What do we think is gonna get worse in the sector? What is there anything that’s going to get better? Are the things they’re going to stay the same just like what? What’s the environment we’re working in? And then from there, what kind of role could we play in service to that? Because then 10 really sees our work as community centered in service to the community and the number one opportunity that came out from both the boards work and the staff’s work. Waas being a leader in talking about or putting forward information about that intersection of ethics and equity and what we are doing. We’re using technology tools that are also being used. Bite people holding kids in cages were using technology tools that are making a ton of money off of us were you know, like all of these pieces, that whether we can change those things or not, we can at least name those things and equipped folks to better understand them and talk about them and make decisions to kind of navigate what all those implications are for their staff and for their community. So we started really elevating that type of content in articles and, you know, within the community a lot of NTC sessions on Dhe. Then last year in 2019 it was like, Okay, it’s really time for something that folks could like, you know, print and hold in their hand and say, like there’s a lot of ideas here for me to work with, you know, something more than individual sessions or articles. So we put together really diverse and honestly, just like super cool. Like I loved getting to talk to all these people working group of community members, folks that work, you know, in in building tools and using tools that, you know, all all across the spectrum. There have.

[00:07:23.00] spk_1:
Ah, a lot of the work group members were We’re have been guests. Oh, really? That’s awesome. Raj Aggarwal, Tracy Krohn Zach Tristan Penn who works for in 10 Jason Shim Ruben Sing. And they have all been guests. Yeah,

[00:07:25.21] spk_0:
well, look at you. You’re pulling the right people. You know,

[00:07:28.79] spk_1:
we are. I am. We are. Yes.

[00:07:33.54] spk_0:
So we had this big working group on dhe. Really? Just went through a lot of, you know, idea intake and try and kind of synthesize that and then regroup and talk it through and brainstorm or things. And, you know, I think what ultimately came out is a guide. I know we kind of talked about this before, but just to name why we named it that. Yeah, Report

[00:07:59.24] spk_1:
versus guide. Okay. We’ll talk about that.

[00:08:06.84] spk_0:
Yeah, we I mean, we really wanted to create something and make clear that even this thing we’ve put out is probably gonna look different six months from now as the sectors that were working in change as we as organizations changes, people change, you know, there might. We might feel there’s more things we can add to it. There might, because it feels like it becomes the standard and we don’t need to name it anymore, and ADM. Or, you know,

[00:08:32.42] spk_1:
right it sounds artificial to say it’s a report on equity racial inequity in technology used by non profits. E think of the conversation.

[00:09:39.44] spk_0:
The other piece that we really wanted to acknowledge in this is that it is not like it’s not comprehensive. This, like in so far, is like this is not the list. You know, there’s nothing else to dio that would improve equity. Um, and you know, it’s not the things that are included there. We really are like bumpers or directional guides. They don’t tell you what the policy should be, because ultimately the specifics of the policy you’re gonna be based on your organization and your staff. And how many staff do you have? And where do they were? You know, there’s all these other pieces that we don’t know, But we can tell you like Don’t go past this bar, you know, stay within these bumpers on dhe that will get you going in the right direction. So ultimately downloading or reading on the on the website, the Equity guide is just like the jumping off point to a lot of work. It is not already the work for you. You

[00:09:53.84] spk_1:
know, I was very careful to when I was writing the description, I wanted to say to reveal intersecting inequities, not reveal the intersecting inequities again. A ZX If it’s if it’s the finally

[00:10:03.32] spk_0:
the only ones. Yeah,

[00:10:37.54] spk_1:
right. This is all. There’s no more exploration to do now. You’re like like the entire white privilege. Racism, conversation. It’s a It is a It’s a conversation. It’s a journey. You know, Every guest I’m talking about these issues with says the same thing. No, of course. And I know you and I have talked about it. It’s long term. It’s not a check off item, it’s it’s maybe never done, but it Z it’s consciousness. It’s working through policies. It’s having difficult conversations, so there isn’t going to be a definitive guide and definitive report record, right?

[00:11:06.34] spk_0:
You want this to, of course, be used at organizations that maybe haven’t done a lot of investing specific Teoh Mawr Equitable outcomes internally or with their community as well as organizations who feel like they really have, you know, and 10 has really deeply and across the organization invested in equity work. We look at this list and are like shit, man, there’s a whole lot of work to dio, right? Like any organization, No matter how much you’ve already started or gone down that journey, it is forever work. So there’s tons on within the guidelines where we think, Oh, that’s we We’ve done something there. But now that we’ve done something, we can see how much more we could do there, right? We could see what even further down each of those roads could could be for us. So and this has to

[00:11:36.79] spk_1:
be continuing work because, right, it’s just as just the same as your um propagating your values, the organizational values when so when, when racial equity becomes a value, you don’t say your values have an end game. The value of, um, I’m trying to separate it from

[00:11:58.03] spk_0:
before. I mean, I think it’s a really great way to think about it, thinking about racial equity, the value, because all the other values you may have, you know, whatever they are, joy, you know, whatever. You also don’t see them as having a singular definition. You don’t say old equals this. You say, Hey, in this decision we’re trying to make right now, what would bold look like? Bold is our is our value. What would bold look like? Right. So why why wouldn’t we also say the same thing about equity and say, hey, in this situation in this decision, whatever we’re working on, what is that what you look like here? You know?

[00:12:35.84] spk_1:
Right. Okay. I just had the servant Ah ha. Moment around naming equity as a value of the organization on dhe. Therefore, and as you just described, all the other values don’t have in points checkoffs. Yeah, completion statements. Why would racial equity? Uh, okay. It was a bit of a moment for me. Sorry.

[00:12:58.65] spk_0:
I’m glad I could be here. I’m trainable, e.

[00:13:08.54] spk_1:
I swear I’m trainable. All right. Um, so equitable technology. So you talk about, um, inequities that intersect between the non profit community, non profit work and technology. That’s that’s the That’s what we’re trying to elucidate here in this in this guide that the way those two circles intersect

[00:16:42.54] spk_0:
Mhm. Okay, you know, I think that a lot of in equity, especially in equity related to our technology, gets overshadowed. Like every other instance in organizations, we kind of look less at the technology because we’re focused almost exclusively on programs. And so we’re saying, you know, just like we do in budget conversations or anything else. You know, there’s this focus on programs, and so equity looks like how racially diverse are our participants or something like that, which is important. And I’m not saying Don’t look at that. But that’s not the end of what equity means in your organization, especially when we start talking about technology. Because if you’re providing service is or programs to a racially diverse group of community members and you’re using a technology tool, you know you’re using ah database, for example, where they register on your website for those programs. And it requires they enter certain data that some groups either don’t have or feel really untrusting trying to give that data to you. And you’re not thinking that through that right there is already a nen equity, right you are. You are trying to discourage certain people even though you don’t maybe recognize it, or or unconsciously making the decision to do it. You are discouraging groups of folks from participating in your programs just because of that technology decisions, you know, So technology doesn’t operate just visit’s itself. You know, it’s not just the hammer sitting on the shelf. It is what’s allowing you to do your work to communicate with people. Thio Get them registered for that program, whatever it is, And we can’t let go of technology being that instrumental to all of our other decisions. Otherwise, we’re not going to acknowledge, like, really what’s influencing the outcome there. And, of course, then we think about, you know, non profits and the the technology sector. I think one big area that we talked a lot about in the working group WAAS organizations aren’t inclusive in the ways they make decisions, so so often we see non profits, not including community members in decisions about the way the program might run or the way the website might be redesigned. Those air, anything that involves the participants should have have those participants in the same process for the decision and the planning. But organizations so rarely do that. And then, on the technology side, we have a really not diverse group of people building these tools. So we’re having a real lack of inclusivity of any kind in the building of the tool, then being used by an organization whose not including all of the participants in the decision to use it or how to use it. Of course, it’s gonna enter some problems, right? Like there’s no way that that can’t be the outcome here. A very small group of people made it, and now an organization is using it kind of without their eyes open to it.

[00:17:21.84] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help you build relationships with journalists because of a relationship built by turn to the New York community. Trust got to features in the Wall Street Journal. That’s how well it works when you have the existing relationships turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Penna Pento, was an editor at The Chronicle of philanthropy. There are turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to tech equity. So let ZX spend a little time. Let’s let’s talk about the the guide itself. Oh, you you haven’t You haven’t organized for for users and for builders of technology and for funders,

[00:17:36.64] spk_0:
which is profit. Could be all three of those things, right?

[00:17:51.74] spk_1:
It certainly could, Absolutely. If you’re building technology and you make and you provide grants, you you fund fund people or organizations, of course, equitable text. So, you know, there’s a lot of you gotta look for listeners. You just got to get the guide. I mean, waken doom or than weaken then I can with authors, Right? Because those air 250 page books, this is not a 250 page guide. It maybe, maybe maybe in a couple of generations it will be,

[00:18:10.42] spk_0:
but so we can currently Currently I think it’s 27 pages.

[00:18:25.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So you got to get the guide. If you want to do this work, if you wanna be making be centering equity among all your other values as you make your technology decisions as you think about technology and the way it’s used in your organization or purchased in your organization, or maintained or used by those who you’re serving or any of your other constituents. And, you know, you gotta get the guide, obviously, which, uh, the guide we could just get the guided and 10 dot or ge right?

[00:18:46.24] spk_0:
Yep, totally free up on the website. If you go to end 10 or GE and then you click on resource is listed right there.

[00:19:09.44] spk_1:
Okay, so let’s talk about Equitable Tech Not assuming tech expertise. Yeah, training, you know, having equitable policies around use, um, providing money where a lot of organizations wouldn’t typically What? What? What are our concerns here? What do you what? The group

[00:19:17.49] spk_0:
we’ll talk

[00:19:18.24] spk_1:
about here

[00:22:23.24] spk_0:
that, you know, hiring folks whenever they think about having a more diverse staff. Racially diverse staff. They always think thio hiring new people because the place they’re coming from is a staff that isn’t diverse. Writer is predominantly white, and there’s this feeling that, like, well, so we’ll just not change any of our higher being process or change. Our organizational culture will just hire people of color through that process somehow which, if that If that was all that was gonna happen, then you wouldn’t be in the situation, right? Especially when it comes Thio technology roles. And that doesn’t mean that it’s like the I T director, as we talked about before it, you know, communications director is the technology staff person, right? Like they’re making lots of technology decisions all the way across an organization. So recognizing that the folks who have had all kinds of systemic access and encouragement to go to college to graduate from college, to graduate from college with a computer science or some other technical degree like guess who those people are super well resourced white men, right? Like that’s just been the reality we’ve had for decades. So if you’re hiring for roles that use technology and you’re saying that you require a college degree, you require a degree in some specific field that you, um, are expecting folks to apply and already have experience or knowledge of specific products, your you are signaling in that job description. We are looking for that well resourced white man, right, because while of course there’s like exceptions to that reality, that’s not you’re not going to necessarily find the exception in there, right? So what? What’s the difference in saying that someone has a college degree or not like, Are they having to write term papers for their job? Like, I don’t know that that isn’t necessary In 2020. I don’t know that we need to rely on those kind of outdated expectations. Nor do we need to say you already know how to use all the products that we use. Well, did all of your staff know how to use them when you bought them? No. You trained them. Why wouldn’t you train a new person? You know, so really investing in hiring great people who love your mission, want to do your work are from the community you serve and knowing that regardless of the position, regardless of the title, once you’re hired, we give you all the training you need to succeed. Not somehow. We think that you should magically already have all of that training. And that makes you the perfect candidate because the folks who would have had historical like jobs before that also use the same tools. Like all of those things are filtering towards the most privileged people. When you let go of all those expectations and say no, Like, we wanna hire great people who care about our work. And once you’re hired, well, make sure you’re successful. Like who wouldn’t want to work in that environment? A. And B, you’re opening it up for anyone, regardless of what their past jobs, maybe, or what tools those other nonprofits use. Like they could have great experience with databases just because that organization used a different one. You know that that shouldn’t preclude someone from getting a job.

[00:23:03.94] spk_1:
So let’s let’s flush this out more and and explore more. Uh, and I guess, I mean, I feel like I’m playing Devil’s Advocate. I didn’t intend to, but the

[00:23:04.37] spk_0:
devil doesn’t need an advocate. E think the devil’s okay? You just ask what you want to ask

[00:23:51.44] spk_1:
you. Uh, and the report, the guide is, um, even drills down to like, operating systems. You know that. Why would you have to say, Why do you need to say familiarity with or or proficient with the Microsoft Suite, Microsoft Office Suite of Tools? You know, because you could you could train that. I guess I’m thinking a little higher level a college degree college degree. So I’ve, you know, I’ve had this conversation with other guests to it might have even been Raj. Um, so this isn’t the first time, but it’s been a while. Yeah, a college degree. There’s certain skills and expertise that’s presumed from a college degree. So let’s not quibble about whether you know one college degree has means that the person can write and read and speak articulately and different. College degree means it doesn’t. That means they can’t. It doesn’t necessarily mean that. Let’s just assume that there’s that there’s a certain skill and expertise level and

[00:24:17.48] spk_0:
eso can you just skills.

[00:24:18.73] spk_1:
I mean, can you just commemorate the skills that you need without having to say you have to have a college degree to have acquired them?

[00:24:25.84] spk_0:
Right? Totally Skills E. I think that there is

[00:24:29.56] spk_1:
advocate really just flushing it out. So

[00:26:25.14] spk_0:
on there is a time and place. You’re saying you have this specific degree or specific certification because the job you’re applying for is a mental health worker, and you need to be certified in our state social work that keep those instances very specific and very separate from we’re hiding, hiring a communications director. We’re hiring a program manager. What does a college degree make or break for that role? Like I have a bachelor’s degree in literature like I in creative writing and I am the CEO of the technology organization. Like what? What’s the correlation there like? Yes, I’m very proficient at writing emails, but that’s not because I have an English degree. You know, like just name, name those skills. And I think it can also be very. I think organizations try to equate the tiered education system with their organizational tear. So they are reliant internally on a very archaic, perfect pyramid shaped or chart. And so they’re thinking, Well, if we’re gonna hire anyone you know in that leadership tier of the triangle, whether it’s see sweeter, you know, directors, whatever their title structure, as then those folks need to have like a master’s thio. Others people have, you know, only a bachelor. Why, I would argue someone who spent even longer in school versus out in the community or in the work force has less personal expertise, right, because they haven’t been doing it. So to try and like map to that, you know, and that then rolls into Well, then who gets those jobs? Also gets paid more because that work structure is also reliant on saying that people a different titles make a different amount of money

[00:26:38.43] spk_1:
forces the privilege of having

[00:26:40.78] spk_0:
exactly, exactly, exactly, it’s just a permanent circle. You know,

[00:26:47.14] spk_1:
some of the details like providing money for Internet connections, not assuming that people can afford that giving technology, not expecting it to exist when it’s required for work.

[00:27:08.22] spk_0:
Those things have certainly come up with these air like these are so many

[00:27:22.84] spk_1:
things that air sort of innocuous. I mean, like like asking for a college degree. It z well, it’s become so commonplace. Everybody has a cell phone. Everybody can afford Internet and high speed WiFi. But another of those things are true. So

[00:27:36.54] spk_0:
and and just because one has a phone that you have a staff of 10 people and all people when they were hired said they had a smartphone. What smartphone they have, what data plan they have, what, how many minutes they have, even like what functionality is available for That type of phone is probably not the same, and the idea that it’s just on them to use their personal phone. If there’s something that you you need someone to use, then you need to give it to them. We can’t operate in this world where whatever you personally already had or invested in is going to make or break your professional success. That’s that’s not going toe ever end inequitable way

[00:28:19.94] spk_1:
data, data usage you touched on it and you start to touch on the collection part. And while you were talking about collection, I was thinking about the individual questions that you ask, Do you have quickly binary male female? First of all, you need to even ask Do the gender matter. And But how? How narrow are the choices that you’re offering in that lots of other places. What do you What do you want to say about data?

[00:29:10.44] spk_0:
I feel like data is so tricky for organizations, you know, it’s It’s something that I think from, you know, a decade of the greater sector, talking about how organizations need to be data driven and data informed, and you know what data do you have? And you know, there’s just been such a focus in in a kind of a more FIC way that nonprofits need to really care about Jada, that they now really care about data. They don’t know why they care about it or necessarily, like what to do about it. There isn’t.

[00:29:18.64] spk_1:
Well, they’re gonna

[00:29:19.08] spk_0:
mind data practice,

[00:29:21.04] spk_1:
get a lot of data, and then we’re gonna mine it

[00:30:40.24] spk_0:
on. Then we’re gonna use We’re gonna upload it all into this like a I machine, and it’s gonna tell us who’s going to donate to us, who’s going to do whatever. Who’s gonna come to our programs? Yeah, but I think the very first piece, I would say, is not just acknowledging but truly accepting and making all of your decisions around data from the perspective that it is not yours. It is each of those people’s data and you, for a temporary amount of time, have access to it. If that is the place where you can make your decisions from that, you need to be doing everything in your power to protect it. To Stuart it to make sure they know what data you have that it’s clean and updated. Your your relationship to that data changes. And I think even just in that relationship change will get organizations on a better path, you know. And then once you’re in that mindset, it’s so obvious to say, Well, of course, those people should be controlling their data and able to edit it at any time or request that we delete it, you know, and don’t keep the record anymore, like you kind of roll out from there so many of the things that are in the guides just because it’s obvious. Once you have the mindset that it’s not your data,

[00:30:48.70] spk_1:
you know they own it, they own.

[00:31:16.84] spk_0:
And if it’s, there’s of course, you shouldn’t just offer binary options on gender or anything else, right, because you don’t know it’s not your data, so you can’t have already decided what the option is. You know, I think that mindset shift really influences a lot and open the door for you to say, Hey, the outcomes of this program aren’t ours to decide. Participants benefiting from our programs and service is actually get to decide what the outcome of that program was for

[00:31:31.04] spk_1:
them. Yes, that was a very interesting winning the guide that that who sets the metrics for success? What is success in our program or programs. What is it? How is it defined? Right, right,

[00:31:52.74] spk_0:
which I don’t think is is far from ideas that you have certainly thought about whether or not they’re They’re super like widely accepted now, But even in fundraising, right that like someone participating in that in a fundraise e or ah, donation relationship with you like you don’t necessarily have to say. Okay, well, your donating $10 and it’s specifically going to this, But what kind of thank you they want? What kind of recognition they want isn’t for you necessarily to decide it’s Do you want to be recognized? Do you want to be acknowledged? You know? So I think once we remember that as organizations, we are essentially the facilitators of change making. We’re not the ones who owned the data. Who owned the program? Who owned the success, who owned the impact? Like we let go of essentially a lot of a lot of pressure. Teoh be like fortune tellers or something and and future tellers and instead say, we’re facilitating this program. These participants air coming through and look, they’re like five different outcomes that were achieved. And it’s great not every single person had one outcome. They liked it in the same way. They’re gonna use it in the same way, like it’s all humans that were interacting with. And we need to We need to bring back that human focusing.

[00:33:15.84] spk_1:
This is related to funding. So you have a whole. You have several ideas for funders to think about to act on. What do you want to say to our institutional funders?

[00:33:18.74] spk_0:
Uh, you do have some work to dio

[00:33:54.14] spk_1:
time for our last break dot drives dot drives Engagement dot drives relationships. Dot drives is the simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. It’s customizable, collaborative, intuitive. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. You know what we’ve got we’ve got but loads more time for tech equity.

[00:36:06.83] spk_0:
I think funders air in a tricky spot because not on Lee do all of the same Inequitable outcomes happen as faras using technology like there’s still a kind of non profit using technology and doing work, so they’ve got, like, all of that section of work to Dio, and they also have the relationship where they are investing in the sector. There’s there’s some shifts that I think need to happen there, especially for funders who are saying that they don’t invest in technology, not investing in technology. Like I think the last six months have shown what has happened to a sector that has been chronically under resourced and technology, and when a lot of organizations or getting donations or grants, that’s a You can’t use this on technology. Guess what? The outcome of that ISS the last six months. It is organizations who cannot continue to function, who I’ve already started closing their divorce, who cannot transition programs online and don’t know don’t have the internal capacity to do that. So we we just can’t any longer have grants that say, you can’t use this on technology like you can’t have a program without the database that stores all the participants in it. Why would the grant for that program not include the database? Right? It’s just ridiculous. Thes air these air, the necessary tools for programs success. They have to be part of every gram on dhe. I think the other piece that we’ve seen, We’re gonna We’ve seen funders try even just over the last number of years. And during the pandemic is we have solved this for you. We’ve chosen the tool, or we’ve chosen the consultant. And now, if you apply for this grant, what you actually get is for free. We’re going to give you this product that we, as the thunder have decided that you all will use. Or we’ve paid for this consultant who’s gonna go set this thing up for all of you. Why in any world would that be a successful strategy? You know, a single technology be known in advance to be the right tool for all this?

[00:36:17.45] spk_1:
Sounds like something that a company would do. And it would be more for a ZX the guy brings out. It would be more for visibility. That impact, right? If

[00:36:25.37] spk_0:
it’s such an easy route, right, its

[00:36:27.80] spk_1:
ability is your goal. Then that’s the I mean, I’m giving an answer to your rhetorical question,

[00:36:47.33] spk_0:
right? I mean, it’s honestly, like a lazy way to approach capacity building. You’re not accepting that there’s nuance in any of this work and that there would be differences and needs and you’re just saying like Here’s here’s one giant hammer. I hope it works for all of your work sites by you

[00:36:57.13] spk_1:
know, what about for technology creators? Way said earlier. Non profit could be. It could very well be a builder of technology as well.

[00:38:10.72] spk_0:
Mhm. Yeah, there are. I think it’s more common than, you know. Maybe the broader us really thinks about how many nonprofits are building technology because it may not even be technology that they sell, or even that they share or distribute. It could just be technology that they built for themselves to do something. But all the same kind of guidelines apply. You know, how are you building tools for unending use or an end community and not including those people in the process? There’s There’s just no way that it’s going that you could never assume it’s gonna work for those folks if those folks are not part of the process. Um, that doesn’t mean you need to have you know, 50 different people trying to be in the code on your website or something that you know, we’re not. We’re not saying that, but there are plenty of ways to include folks in scoping out what you’re gonna build testing it, piloting it, um, you know, making it over time. And the more of those folks that are included, the better the product will be. And and in the world of technology, I mean, success equals adoption. So if you really want it to be adopted, you really want people to successfully use it. Then you better be including them so that when it gets to them, it does work, and it is what they needed to be. Andi, I think

[00:40:12.86] spk_1:
I was talking about this in the early 19 eighties when when I was when I was getting the degree that I don’t use, which is from Carnegie Mellon degree, uh, information systems. I asked Economics and Information system, and we had to develop a creative build a project our fourth year. Our our senior project course was an inventory control system for the maintenance and Facilities Department. So we brought the users in who were not I mean, these guys. This is the guy who runs the inventory room, right? College degree. He wasn’t even white, but he was gonna be the he was gonna be. He’s one of the prime users. We were building this for it was a bunch of white. Mostly, I don’t know if it was mostly male, probably probably Waas, but this mostly male white group, you know, bringing this thing this man of color in tow help teach us how he does his job and how what we’re scoping out is going to impact his his work life on and teaching us, you know, teaching. But so we were talking about this in 1984 you know, bringing users. And that’s just the end user. There’s also the people who are entering data maybe not as users, but or not as recurring users, but as new users as benefit from your program as they check in for the meal or the overnight stay or the bag of uh huh of food. You know what, so right, Inclusive e. I mean, it was just called inclusive design,

[00:41:47.81] spk_0:
right? And how do you compensate those people? How do you acknowledge those people? How do you give them actual power in the process? You know, like again if we if we think about this as we’re just here as the facilitators of this work then it is clear that they should have our They should be able to influence our plans. You know, this isn’t just for the sake of saying we had some user group come in and five of five people and they gave us the feedback. You know, like, this isn’t This isn’t to check the box. This is to say, Hey, we’re the facilitators of change of the process and we’re here for you. So, like, let’s find the path. And I think, of course, that’s, like, so counter and scary to the old white dominant way of managing technology managing organizations, you know, Why would you ever give up control willingly? But I guess I’d argue. Like, what control do you really think you have? You know, like the idea that you’re giving up control. Well, right now, if you’re really trying to, like, hold everything in and make every decision internal. Are you having a tonic success? Like, have you met your mission? Is your mission all done like I don’t know that it’s something you really need to try and hold on to. Because if you can be far more centered on the community, you also have the benefit of Of likely accelerating that impact and more, more rapidly meeting your mission. Right? Because

[00:42:32.30] spk_1:
another word for controllers power. You’re giving up your surrendering power, which which so many people think you know, it’s it’s zero sum. So whatever I lose, you know, whatever I give up, I don’t have any more. But that’s like that’s like finding time. Well, you find the time. No, you make the time. Otherwise the time Or, you know, uh, you know, it’s time. It’s it’s a It’s the same abstract concept. It, um So the surrender of power, they and I would even hesitate to say the delegation of power. But it’s because then it’s

[00:42:36.73] spk_0:
just acknowledging that actually, these other bodies,

[00:42:40.35] spk_1:
these other, like I’m making a sign of across I give you power,

[00:42:44.40] spk_0:
right? No, it’s it’s just technology that everyone already had power. It was just power. You denied before. And now you’re saying, Oh, I’m gonna like actually listen to that You’re not getting ready of any of yours. You’re just technology that everyone else also has power on dhe. What does it look like? All work together and put all of that power towards the same direction.

[00:43:06.77] spk_1:
And then, you know, sometimes you hear well, that’ll be anarchy because they’ll be Everybody will have all

[00:43:13.96] spk_0:
the same power jurisdiction. So

[00:43:38.00] spk_1:
you know, your ruled by Antifa? Uh, that was purely sarcastic. Uh, no. I mean the the authority is still gonna be recognized. It’s not like it’s not like by by giving voice to other folks, you’re no longer the CEO of intent or, you know, you’re no longer people don’t no longer recognize you as the chair of the board. It’s not. It’s not that way. It’s not anarchy. It’s tze just inclusivity,

[00:44:40.39] spk_0:
right? I mean, if you’ve always relied on defining your job, is the CEO as being the only one allowed to make decisions? A. You probably put a ton of pressure on yourself. Be You were likely never the best person to make those decisions. So were they ever that great? Anyway, you know, it’s like remember, you’re just the facility. You’re the facilitator. Is the CEO of your organization being successful? That doesn’t mean you make all the decisions. It means you’re the facilitator. You make sure the right staff were making decisions or the right community members got to be part of things like let go of again. It’s not the power or the control. Just let go of these really outdated definitions of who we need to be in these roles so that we can get out of the way of all of this inequity, right? Like, create or make that space so that people are in this work together because then it’s gonna be better work.

[00:44:56.19] spk_1:
Yeah. Get out of the way of the inequity. No! Get out of the way of the equity. Out of the way you want. You want to stand out of the way so that equity can come through? Yes. Don’t want to get out of the way of the inequity.

[00:45:04.83] spk_0:

[00:45:05.87] spk_1:
inequity would prevail. You want to get out of the way of the equity? Alright, stand clear and the equity will emerge. Okay. Um So what else? Let’s let’s start to wrap up. What else you wanna tell us about the report? That the guide, the guide? I’m sorry. The guy that we didn’t talk about, I

[00:46:16.78] spk_0:
think the thing that I would love to say is, you know, it’s all, um it’s all it’s all practice, right? Like you’re not going toe. Read anything in the guide and have it be like word for word, something you copy paste. And now that’s your policy or anything else. And yeah, and also there’s nothing in there that you’ll that you’ll, you know, be directed or inspired to put forward in your organization. That’s gonna be like quote unquote right the first time. Because there is There is no right on Lee Path in this work, and it’s really committing Thio, the practice of of focusing on equity and trying Thio identify and make clear where they’re inequitable outcomes so that you can again practice how to get to a better place on dhe. In that vein, you know, the working group isn’t done. The working group is still the working group. They are excited to continue working together to find places to add or adjust things in the guide. And we really, really want to hear from organizations who read the guide and, you know, try and do something in their organization with it. They, you know, have ah, internal committee that looks at these ideas and tries to make recommendations or whatever. Like if you try and use this guide. Let us know. Let us know how it goes. If if you’ve got things that you wanna share, we gladly publish them on the in 10. Um, you know, publish an article from you on the intense site. Um, you know, whether it was, like, a learning process or something, that well, whatever it is, we really just want to hear from folks that are using it so that we can find, you know, is there more that we could put in here to help you translate this into your work? Is there Are there places that you’re finding? Ah, lot of challenge that we could address with more guidelines. You know, um, And if you’re really into this and you want to join the working group, you can also let us know, and we’ll just add you to the working group. And you could be part of this work as well. So ultimately, just go use it. Read it, share it with your funders, share it with the vendors you’re considering buying technology from, you know, and be in conversation with us, so that we can kind of learn from how you do it.

[00:48:03.17] spk_1:
And the report explicitly asks for folks to join the working group. Your email AMIA 10 10 or GE.

[00:48:05.77] spk_0:
Yep. So yeah, email me in time.

[00:48:24.94] spk_1:
Did you want me? Oh, you want Meteo? You want me to blank out your email address? No, you don’t mind, folks have no. Yeah, right. Okay. Thank you. Brava! Brava! Uh, in your simple word and 10.

[00:48:26.77] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for elevating this and helping us share it with more folks.

[00:49:31.17] spk_1:
Absolutely a pleasure on Thank you for doing it. Thank you for helping me. Thank you for helping next week Volunteer engagement and artists. Sunday. Yes. There’s someone taking over looking to take over the Sunday after Thanksgiving for artists. Artists Sunday were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Raise more money. Changed more lives. Tony dot mus slash dot for a free demo and a free month. Ah, creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by Scott Stein with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for August 7, 2020: Donor Surveys & People-Powered Movements

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Crystal Mahon & Christian Robillard: Donor Surveys

Make the most of the donors you have by discovering their potential through surveying. Crystal Mahon and Christian Robillard talk principles, best practices and goal setting. Crystal is with STARS Air Ambulance and Christian is at Beyond The Bake Sale. (Part of our 20NTC coverage)





Celina Stewart & Gloria Pan: People-Powered Movements

This 20NTC panel helps you build more effective and more inclusive movements by encouraging you to think about communications, power and privilege. They’re Celina Stewart from League of Women Voters U.S. and Gloria Pan with MomsRising.





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[00:02:40.44] spk_1:
on welcome tony-martignetti profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Welcome to our first podcast only show. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of in Texas itis if you inflamed me with the idea that you missed today’s show Donor surveys. You’ll make the most of the donors you have by discovering their potential through surveying Crystal Mahan and Christian Robot Yard talk principles. Best practices and goal setting Crystal is with stars, Air ambulance and Christian. Is that beyond the bake sale? This is part of our 20 and TC coverage and people powered movements. This 20 NTC panel helps you build more effective and more inclusive movements by encouraging you to think about communications, power and privilege. They’re Selena Stewart from League of Women Voters. US and Gloria Pan with mom’s rising on tony steak, too. Planned giving accelerator were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is donor surveys. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference and 10 made the excruciating decision to cancel the non profit technology conference. But we are continuing virtually. You’ll get just as much value. We don’t have to all be close to pick the brains of the expert speakers from From N 10. Our coverage is sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software. The Knowledge Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Go to tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guests now are Crystal Mahan and Christian Robot Yard. Crystal is manager of annual giving at stars Air Ambulance and Christian is founder and chief podcaster at Beyond the Bake Sale. Crystal Christian. Welcome. Welcome to non profit radio,

[00:02:44.19] spk_2:

[00:02:45.00] spk_0:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:46.42] spk_1:
It’s a pleasure to have both of you. You are both in ah, in Canada. Crystal. You are in Alberta and Christian. Remind me where you are.

[00:02:55.54] spk_0:
I’m in Ah, beautiful, Sunny Ottawa, Ontario.

[00:03:00.02] spk_1:
Ottawa. No other capital? Yes, in

[00:03:01.23] spk_0:
your nation’s capital. Not be not be disputed with Toronto. Who likes to think that the capital

[00:03:29.66] spk_1:
I know well and many Americans think it’s either Montreal with Toronto? Yes, but, uh, Ottawa Capital. All right. I’m glad to know that you’re both well and safe. Um, and glad to have you both with us. Thanks. Um, we’re talking about donor surveys. Your your NTC topic is ah, Dorner surveys your untapped data goldmine Crystal. Why are surveys a data goldmine?

[00:03:45.11] spk_2:
Well, we have the fortunate launching a survey. We’ve never done one prior to 2016. And when we did it, we were amazed at what we found. So we learned a lot about our donors. Education preferences. We made money, like, usually made that on that. And I’ll talk about. We actually ended up learning a lot about I’m getting prospects. And turns out that there were a lot of donors that we had no idea name Justin there will ever interested in the will. So there was a lot of revenue like hidden revenue that we were finally getting access to you. So that’s are where that line is moving your wits, but it’s preparing to you.

[00:04:23.61] spk_1:
Interesting. I’m looking forward to drilling into that more because I didn’t plan to giving fundraising as a consultant on sometimes asked by clients about doing surveys. So I’m interested in what you’re doing as well. Um, and and you’re getting gifts. You said you’ve made money back from them. So people do send you gifts of cash along with their surveys.

[00:04:53.69] spk_2:
Yes. Like this year we get. Because last year, 2019 are stars. Allies there, maybe $300,000 And that all the you people have been found for giving what? We’re looking at dollars. So it’s you cannot do a survey to seem like you. Point?

[00:04:54.30] spk_1:
Yeah. Did you say billions? With a B?

[00:04:57.21] spk_2:
No millions and

[00:05:08.78] spk_1:
millions. Okay, the audio is not perfect, so it almost sounded billions. So I want to be sure, because I’m listeners have the same question. Okay, Millions, millions is still very, very good. Um, Christian? Anything you want to head to about Why these air Ah, such a gold mine for non profits.

[00:05:14.81] spk_0:
I mean, besides the fact that you’re using data, obviously, to reinforce certain decisions and Teoh highlight certain wealth elements, I would say in terms of your sponsorship potential, I know a lot of organizations are looking more so into the corporate sponsorship corporate engagement side of things. And I think with your donor surveys, you could really reveal a lot around where people are working there levels in terms of positions within a certain company or organization. And that can lead you down some interesting pass from a corporate sponsorship perspective.

[00:06:05.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay, um, your, um your description of the workshop said that make the most of the donors you already have. And it sounds like you both obviously are going there. Is there anything you want to add about sussing out the value that’s in your that you don’t know? You have among your current donors?

[00:06:31.20] spk_2:
Well, from our perspective, like it’s given us an opportunity to get to know our donors better in terms of what? What are they actually interested in learning about the organization or why are they choosing given that allows us to tailor messages, just be a lot more personal with them and act like we really know that was supposed to them just being a number. This is an opportunity to really cultivate that relationship and just continue bring them on war.

[00:06:41.08] spk_1:
Okay, um, is most of your content in the workshop around as practices for surveys? Is that what we’re gonna be exploring? Mostly

[00:07:05.94] spk_2:
Christian feel free to jump in and say that we were looking a lot of fast. Her best practice, then also, case studies. People would have some tangible examples how to actually launch one with consider. And what would actually need to do once they got

[00:07:24.46] spk_1:
OK? All right, well, let’s, um let’s start with, Like, where? Where do you get started? Who, Who who were the best people to send surveys to our What types of information are are you finding our most responded to or what types of questions are most responded to? How can you help us sort of frame? Ah ah, an outline of what we were to get started.

[00:07:55.62] spk_2:
Well, Christian and I talked a lot about building the proper spoke of your surveys of figuring out. Why exactly are you? What do you try to find out? And once, you kind of I guess you were down exactly what you’re trying to learn, what you’re trying to cheat, That sort of helping bigger. You need to actually reach up to what? The audience. You need to know that before.

[00:08:06.93] spk_1:
Okay, So, starting with your goals, what was the purpose of the darn thing? Yes. Okay. Okay. Um Christian. You want to jump in around, you know it’s starting to get this process started.

[00:08:15.29] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think as crystal, I were kind of building this piece at whether you’re talking about more of a philanthropic, focus for your surveying or whether you’re talking about more of a corporate sponsorship focus of it. You only want to ask yourself, I never different questions before you even get going things around. What do you ultimately want to know about your donor base? Or about this particular audience population that you’re ultimately looking for? More information on? Why are you doing this in the first place? Is, Is this more responsive? Isn’t it more of a proactive type surveyed that explore new avenues? Would you ultimately need to know? I think that’s an important element to focus on Is not asking everything but asking the right things? Who do you need to ask? So who is the actual population that you’re targeting at the end of the day? What would you do with the information? So don’t just collect information for information, say not that that’s not important. But what’s the actual actionable pieces for that? And how are you gonna protect that information? I think with today’s sensitivities around around data privacy, it’s really important for charities and nonprofits to Stuart that data as they would any type of gift that they ultimately get.

[00:09:27.71] spk_1:
Yeah, in terms of the data stewardship that that may constrain what you asked as well, because now you have, ah, conceivably a higher level of security that you need to maintain

[00:09:32.60] spk_0:
absolutely tony and even just in terms of sensitivities, of phrasing, certain questions, and that it’s important for you to think about how you phrase certain things and how intimate your ultimately getting. And if you do get that intimate, like you said, how do you protect that data? But also, what’s the purpose for collecting that particular piece of data side from? Well, it might be a nice toe have someday, instead of this actually contributes towards our bottom line.

[00:10:00.13] spk_1:
You’re doing surveys around corporate sponsorship, right? That’s the example you mentioned. So you’re getting to know where people work so that you might use that information for potential sponsorships.

[00:11:02.31] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, when you look at sponsorship, ultimately it it’s very much a business transaction. If you look at how Forbes just define sponsorship. It’s very much the cash and in kind fee paid to a property, a property being whether it’s ah terrible run or some type of adventure conference in this case, um, in return for access to the exploitable commercial potential associate without property. So anything of any other type of exploitable commercial potential, which is the most buzzer and definition you possibly could. If you think of any type of advertising medium, whether it’s TV, radio print, you want to know ultimately cruising your audience. And one of the best and most effective ways to do that is to conduct some type of survey to really tease out who are some of your very specific or niche audiences. Cannabis a niche. So it’s a bit of a cringe for for us up here in the North. But, uh, having a survey to really tease out who are who’s in your audience. And some of the more behavioral psychographic demographic features of that audience are particularly important, toe have to really make a compelling case toe corporations looking to use sponsorship with your organization,

[00:11:20.18] spk_1:
the, um what four matter using Christian crystal, I’m gonna ask you the same thing shortly. What? How are these offered to people?

[00:11:28.33] spk_0:
Yeah, so we so in the experience of I’ve high, we usually use ah surveymonkey survey of some kind that allows for a lot of cross top analysis to be able to say that people who are in between the ages of 18 and 29 this particular set of income, they have these particular purchase patterns. They care about your cause, toe ends degree. They, um, are engaged with your cause or with your property and whether it’s through social media or through certain print advertisements or whatever that might be. And we usually collect around 30 plus data points on all of those on all those elements, ranging from again behavioral to the demographic to psychographic Teoh. Some very pointed, specific questions around the relationship between your cause and the affinity for a certain corporation based on that based on not caring for that cause.

[00:12:39.89] spk_1:
Yeah. So you said collecting around 30 data points, does that? Does that mean a survey would have that many questions? Absolutely. Okay, now I’ve heard from guests in the past. May have even been ntc guests. Not this year, but, you know, the optimal number of questions for surveys like five or six or so and people bailout beyond that point.

[00:13:58.37] spk_0:
Yeah, and and usually before I had actually sent out a survey of that magnitude, I would agree with you. Tony and I agree with most. I think that the important differentiators one is that you frame it as it’s very much for improving the relationships and the ability for the cause properties, whether that’s your run, your gala, whatever that might be to raise money and usually the audience that you’re setting. That, too, is very receptive to that. I think you want to frame it also as your only collecting the most important of information. And you’re also looking at ah again like you’re incentivizing in some way, shape or form. So usually when you tailor it with some type of incentive Buta $50 gift card opportunity Teoh win something like that. Usually people a lot more or a lot more receptive. And in the time that we’ve done surveys, whether it’s in my my past days, consulting in the space or now doing a lot of work with charities nonprofits, we sent it to tens of thousands of respondents and get a pretty a pretty strong response rate and a really nominal, if negligible, amount of an unsubscribe rates. So people are not un subscribing from getting those questions, and in fact, they’re answering a lot of them and an important element, as well as making them optional. So not forcing people to house to fill out certain pieces but giving them the freedom to answer whatever questions they feel compelled to. But when you’re doing it for the cause, people are pretty are pretty compelled to respond to those states of questions.

[00:14:01.77] spk_1:
Okay, Crystal, how about you? What? What format are your service offered in?

[00:14:31.04] spk_2:
Did you both offline and online? So our donor base tends to skew a little bit older, though for us, a physical mailing is absolutely I’m only deals online, burgeon for, I guess, other parts of our donor base that are different. The graphical, just based on that person’s preference, is giving them that opportunity. But what we did find is that in terms of our offline responses, we had a lower was off rate of responses to the survey, but exponentially more donations coming through offline as online and then for online responses of the online certainly had a lot more responses to be online. Survey. There are fewer donations, so I found that there was an inverse relationship there about that very thing.

[00:15:41.08] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As paycheck protection program. Loan forgiveness This is still a front burner issue. You have got to get your loan forgiveness application in. Wegner has the info you need. Their latest free wagon are explains the state of P P P Loan forgiveness. What is forgivable? What documentation do you need? How to work with your lender? Go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and recorded events. Now back to donor surveys with Crystal Mahan and Christian Robot Yard. Do you, ah, subscribe to the same opinion about the length that that could be up to 30 questions? In a survey, a ZX Christian was saying,

[00:16:17.66] spk_2:
We personally have a practice of you tiki bars between five and 10 questions. And sometimes we even Taylor that we know that some of these interested in particular programs we might take out a certain question. But in something else related specifically to them, for their isn’t variability in the surveys, but generally quite short, but I do agree with Christian for sure in terms of really framing the purpose of the survey and you to the questions around this is the whole purpose of this is to build a relationship with them and better serve them and get to know them better. And I think that really prince, And then you also

[00:16:23.41] spk_1:
just gonna ask about incentivizing, Okay? Something similar, Like drawing for a gift card. Something like that.

[00:16:33.91] spk_2:
Yeah. We get a star’s prize package. We wanted to do something about these decisions. You couldn’t get something but elsewhere. So yeah, way start for merchandise. So that’s

[00:17:18.04] spk_1:
okay. I’m gonna thank Christian for not having a good, uh, good video appearance because, you know, I’ve done 10 of these today, and they’re all gonna be all the video’s gonna be preserved. Except this one. Because Christian, um, as a very extreme background is really just a silhouette ahead with headphones. Really? Little I can see. But I’m grateful because my background just fell. I have a little tony, I have a tony-martignetti. You watched other of these videos which you’re gonna be available. This tony-martignetti non profit radio. So the easel you know, what’s that for? A form core, you know, sign. And it was behind me. It was, and it just fell while Crystal was talking. So thank you, Christian.

[00:17:29.66] spk_0:
It was just so surprised that you could ask 30 questions on a survey and get some type of degree of response.

[00:17:38.43] spk_1:
Only it shook my house that I’m

[00:17:40.42] spk_0:
30 data points. What madness is this? I’m

[00:17:58.70] spk_1:
so a gas man. Yes. And then also the fact that you the two of you disagree. Um, all right, so but I’m shouting myself, calling myself out as having a flimsy background lasted through. And that’s through, like, seven hours of this. I

[00:17:58.85] spk_0:
love it. Also, we don’t necessarily disagree, but I think different surveys serve their different purposes. So I agree with Crystal that in that particular case, you only need descends. One that has 5 to 10 questions rise in this case, your public sending it to in a slot strip case, you’re probably sending it to a larger population of people. And you only need a certain amount of people to fill it out.

[00:18:18.73] spk_1:
Crystal, I had asked you, and you probably answered, but I got distracted by my collapsing background. What? What kinds of incentives do you offer?

[00:18:40.21] spk_2:
We offer stars prize pack. So it’s stars over two nights that we want to talk or something a little bit different other than my gift card that they could get through any other. Yeah, it’s so different Angle

[00:19:00.18] spk_1:
personalized two stars. Okay, Okay, Um, now, was yours specifically Ah, planned giving survey, or did you just have a couple of planned giving questions? And that’s where you discovered this data goldmine of future gift. And all the wheels that you found out that you’re in was

[00:19:27.84] spk_2:
it was it was not specific to plan giving, so it was more just a general survey. And then we did have a question about plan giving and that we were stunned. But subsequent years we kept asking mad, and right now we’re sort of in the middle of doing that whole. I’m giving strategy and trying to really build that out. Now that we know that there is this whole core people that are interested in this. So it’s really opened up the water opportunities President organization after all.

[00:19:43.23] spk_1:
Yeah. Interesting. Okay. All right. So you learned from the first time this is you’re in a lot more estates than you had. Any idea? Um, let’s let’s talk about some more good practices for surveys. Crystal, is there something you can one of two things you want to recommend and then we’ll come toe go back to Christian.

[00:19:53.81] spk_2:
Yeah, One of my major things is that if you’ve been asked a question, you have to know where you’re going to do with that data after the fact that you were people just ask the question to ask a question for whatever reason. But then they don’t action. Anything out of it to me is very important that if our donors are gonna spend the time actually breathe through your survey, respond, mail it in or submitted online, that we actually do something that that information is the weather bats killer. It’s a messaging or changing communication preferences or whatever it is you’re asking us to do, you were tell has I think that’s so important that you have to have all a plan once these losses come back. And what are we gonna do with them? Who was going to take action? How are we gonna reason with this? How are we going to use information.

[00:21:15.77] spk_1:
I think of date of birth is as a good example of that. If you’re gonna, if you’re gonna develop a plan to congratulate someone for their birth on their birthday each year, then that could be a valuable data point. Um, but if you just, you know, if you’re just asking because you you don’t have a purpose, you just interested in what their ages? For some vague reason, then there’s no there’s no value in asking. And if it is just to follow up, if it’s just to know their you know when you want to send a card, maybe you don’t need the year. Maybe just need the day in the month. But if there’s value to your database for knowing their age and you would ask for a year

[00:21:23.72] spk_2:
exactly how he felt down, what do we need to know? I really asking

[00:21:30.90] spk_1:
why, Kristen, you have a best practice you want to share.

[00:21:33.84] spk_0:
Yeah, I would say Consider the not just the population size that you’re not just the population that you’re serving, but also the representative makeup. So if you know that your database is predominantly on more, the senior side of things, but you’re getting a disproportion amount of more individuals who are on the younger side of things. In terms of respondents, that’s something important that you have to take into account. So the makeup of the actual population is is more important. I would argue that the amount of responses you could get a crazy amount of responses. But if it doesn’t represent the population that you’re serving and that who make up your donors, it’s it’s not gonna be valuable dated to you. I remember one time we had a ZX instance for an organization wanted Teoh do a survey for sponsor purposes, and in other cases, it’s been from or donor specific, like, I will just put it on on Facebook or Twitter or something like that. It’s not necessarily your population is not necessarily the group that you’re looking that you’re actively engaged with a fundraising perspective. You get information to the otherwise and then obviously reflect on that and use that. But be really clear about the breakdown that you need to have in order to make the information, actually, representative of the rest of your database,

[00:22:47.24] spk_1:
Um, what kind of response rates what’s what’s a decent response rate to, ah to a survey?

[00:23:06.51] spk_0:
I think it depends what type of server you’re sending. I will let Crystal speak to this more, but I’d say if it’s philanthropic. Eikenberry on the sponsorship side of things you’re looking for a response rate that coincides with the 95% confidence interval with a 5% margin of error. Let’s get market data to calculate that there’s a bunch of big captain complicated formulas that we probably have all repressed from our time in. In statistics Citizen that in university there’s ah company called Surveymonkey that actually has a calculator for its. If you go to the Surveymonkey website, you can actually just plug in a what the sample side of what the actual size of the database you’re sending into. And you can plug in what confidence interval that you want. And then what margin of error that you’d like, and it will pump out a number of a minimum that you need to have. I would say that’s a good starting point. But again, as I talked about before, make sure you have the representative break up breakdown of, ah, who’s actually within your audience reflected in the survey results and don’t have it disproportionately skewed towards a particular demographic that might be just more inclined. Teoh, respond to surveys.

[00:24:25.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay, um, Crystal, Anything you want to add about the confidence, it’s different, but yeah, I withdraw that. That doesn’t make sense for you because you’re doing individual philanthropic surveys. So each response you get is valuable. You find out that someone is interested in planned giving already, has you in their will. That one response has has great value. Yes. Okay.

[00:24:39.74] spk_2:
Our purpose of our surveys a little bit different. We don’t worry so much about that, but I actually meeting how like that in your mind. Reaching out to you?

[00:24:44.24] spk_1:
What? What kind of response rate to use for the crystal is still you know, these things? Things take time and you’re doing Some of them are offline. So there’s postage and printing, et cetera. What kind of response rate do you consider good for? For a NH effort like that

[00:25:40.43] spk_2:
in terms of financial reform? Three. So don’t verify that for us, a response to the survey doesn’t necessarily mean a gift, and it gets to the survey, doesn’t necessarily mean that they responded to a number. Yes, we usually eight or 86%. But in terms of actual response to the survey, we’ve seen his lower 2% for the highest 7% a year of channel. So either way, like we have, quite like we have quite a large database. So any of you to be So get this information, your father.

[00:25:42.89] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, for your online surveys. Crystal, are you using surveymonkey? Also, did you say

[00:25:48.80] spk_2:
use a couple leased surveymonkey last year? It is very user friendly. What? I would caution people are always print about whatever price package designed for because, like you discussed for our surveys a big focuses financial tournament. So we needed to price plan that involved being able to redirect right from surveymonkey page to our donation form. So you had to be really mindful things like that. So in some of the basic packages, they don’t write redirect donation form in that you can’t Do you have a really negatively impact your

[00:26:27.94] spk_1:
Is there another online tool that you like? Also you?

[00:26:52.64] spk_2:
I used Teoh from cold response. Ter. We’ve there be start a sweetener somewhere in Europe, and they were very good, though there are some limitations is well with them in terms of what the packages offer. But bring out we’re using serving Look, you know what was sending out like, for example, looking at surveys. This any surveymonkey already of our to be rich 8th 1 So that’s what we’re using.

[00:26:56.04] spk_1:
Okay, how about you, Christian? Is there another one besides Surveymonkey that you could recommend?

[00:27:22.01] spk_0:
I I think it just depends on what you’re looking for. A tony. So if you’re looking for a lot of, let’s say, more qualitative answers, I’d say even a Google form would would be more than would be more than acceptable. It really just depends on what functionality want to get out of. I used every monkey pretty religiously, just cause it’s like Crystal said. It’s very user friendly. It has the functionality that I need, and it’s and it’s relatively reasonable in terms of in terms of price point for what you get. It’s also gonna depend, and it’s up to you to do due diligence on what types of functionality you need. You need to integrate with your database for other software. Do you need certain functionality. Do you actually know how to use a lot of those things? Is there gonna be support and again, like what? What are they going to do with your data? Like, do they have access to your data? Whether it’s metadata or otherwise, Are there other rules of jurisdictions you have to consider with that data privacy? So I use every monkey by lots of considerations to make.

[00:28:04.85] spk_1:
Okay, Okay. Thank you. And Kristen wanted to, uh why don’t you lead us out with some Take us out with some, I guess. Motivation. Closing thoughts like to end with?

[00:28:05.97] spk_0:
Absolutely, I would say from a sponsor perspective, whether you’re a large organization or small organization, the riches during the niches. So to do good sponsorship, it requires good data, and it requires those 30 plus data points. But whether you’re a big group or a small group, you can compete at the same scale, especially with the amount of money that’s being spent on cost sponsorship over $2 million a worldwide, which is no small amount of money. That’s that you can get access you whether you’re $100,000 a year, order a $1,000,000 plus requires good data. So make sure you’re collecting good data. Make sure you’re clear on what do you want to use your information for? And, uh, not just the diligent in ah, making training step, but the data is actually protected.

[00:28:50.64] spk_1:
Okay, um, I was I was I was gonna let Christian end, But since the two of you have such divergent purposes, which is fabulous for it’s great for a discussion Divergent purposes around your surveys. Crystal, why don’t you take us out on the on the filling topic? The individual donor side?

[00:29:51.64] spk_2:
Yes. So play for discussing. Don’t be afraid to fundraise just because survey doesn’t mean that you can’t make money off of it. People are supporting you enough that they’re willing to fill out the remainder onto you. They may be going to donators alone, and then I’ll help without it said you have to know why you do what you do with that information. It’s really important in terms of respecting your door time and back. That there giving you this information, you need to be able to use it and sort properly and safely. And then last may I just say please, please please test your survey before you actually sending out Senator One other part fans are other people that are not in the midst of building the surveys that you can find out. You phrase things appropriately. You’re actually wanting what you want to functionality is appropriate. I think that’s just so we don’t have one chance of finding out. So just make sure that

[00:30:01.59] spk_1:
okay, thank you very much. That’s Crystal Mahan, manager of annual giving at stars Air Ambulance. And with her is Christian Rubber Yard founder and chief podcaster at Beyond the bake sale crystals in Alberta. And ah, I’m sorry, Crystal. Did I just say Crystal? Yeah.

[00:30:21.02] spk_2:
You know, yesterday

[00:30:23.48] spk_1:
I say, Chris Christie, Mr Just all I know is in Alberta,

[00:30:25.30] spk_0:
you know, we don’t make it easy on your tony

[00:30:36.35] spk_1:
on, and I got through 25 minutes. So well, and I know it’s a lackluster host. I’m sorry. This is stuck with in the Christians in the capital city of Ottawa. Thank you so much, Christian Crystal. Thank you very

[00:30:40.72] spk_0:
much. Thanks, tony.

[00:33:31.93] spk_1:
Thanks to you for being with joining martignetti non profit radio coverage off 20 NTC, the non profit technology conference Responsive at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain will get you a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us now. Time for Tony’s Take two. I am still very proud to announce the launch of planned giving accelerator. This is a yearlong membership community that is going to get your planned giving program started. I’m going to give you exclusive webinars Exclusive podcasts. Yes, beyond tony-martignetti non profit radio, there’s gonna be the exclusive podcast for accelerator members. Small group asked me anything. Sessions over Zoom I’ll have Resource is like templates and checklists. All of this is to get your planned giving program started. You’ll join for a year. I will keep you filled with exclusive content, and you will get your program started. I promise I will make planned giving easy, accessible and affordable. You can check out all the information at planned giving accelerator dot com. If you may not be quite ready for membership, you don’t want to look at that quite yet. You just want to dip your toes in the water. I have a free how to guide about getting your planned giving program started to see a theme. Here, you see, you see the consistency running through here. This is not This is not accidental. Please, please the free how to guide you Download that also at planned giving accelerator dot com, that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for people powered movements. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference. Of course, the conference was canceled, but we are persevering. Virtually sponsored. A 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guests now are Selena Stewart and Gloria Pan. Selena is senior director of advocacy and litigation at League of Women Voters. US. And Gloria is vice president for member engagement at Mom’s Rising Celina. Gloria. Welcome. Hello. I’m glad we were able to put this virtually. It’s good to see both of you. Um and I’m glad to know that you each well and safe and in either D. C or just outside D. C. Selena, you’re in d. C and Gloria. Where you outside Washington Gloria

[00:33:46.60] spk_4:
I am actually near Dulles Airport. So, you know, some people commute from here, but because Mom’s rising is a virtual organization, I don’t. And so when people ask me for lunch, I’m always like, Okay, it takes a little bit more planning. I have to bend. I have to get my body injustices.

[00:34:18.24] spk_1:
Okay, Um, you’re NTC Topic is a revolution is coming. Top tactics, build people powered movements. Um, Selena, would you get us started with this? What? What was the need for the session?

[00:35:27.88] spk_3:
Well, I think, um, I think one of the things is right now it’s all about people power. You know, there’s everything is so politicized right now, and I think that there is often a conversation about how people are involved with what government actually represents or what the government is representing. So I think that that’s really, really important. Um, we also saw, like, a 2018 mawr voter turnout, more voters turning out to vote and things like that. So I think that that also is a part of us people conversation like what is compelling people to participate, even mawr, or at a greater extent in their democracy. But all of these things kind of work together to figure out. Not only do we have people engaged now, but what is important. What just community is more people become engaged. How does how does our definition of our community and communities in general changes? More people are included and participating all of those things. So I think that we’re at a very interesting and crucial moment in time. And so people powered and people involved movement. It’s it’s, I think it’s always happen. But it’s just a coin phrase. I think that’s especially prevalent right now.

[00:35:56.69] spk_1:
Good, Gloria, even though participation is is very high, were also largely polarized. So how do we overcome the opposite ends of the spectrum to tryto bring people together and and organize?

[00:36:01.33] spk_4:
Are you talking about everyone or are you talking about voters?

[00:36:17.39] spk_1:
Uh, well, I’m talking about the country. I don’t know. I don’t know whether I don’t know where the people are voting, but I’m talking about our political polarization. I don’t know if they’re necessarily voting. I

[00:36:20.97] spk_3:
I talked about voting, so I probably threw it off a little bit. Glory. They act like I’m asking for

[00:37:19.89] spk_4:
complication only because, like some of the most talented and I think unifying on politicians in recent memory. For example, Barack Obama did not succeed in unifying all of us, right? So there are some segments of our citizenry that will just not do it. We will not be able to come together with them. But I think that for, um, people who really do want the best for our country and who are open minded enough, Teoh want to hear from other people who have different, you know, slightly different ways of looking at the world. It is possible to do it, and that goes back to what Selena was saying about people powered movements. I think that one of the reasons why that’s become more more of a catchphrase is that you know, we are in an era of information overload. We are in an era of polarization and not believing everything that we’re seeing on the Internet and in the news. And so being able to actually really connect with people on the ground, in person, over the phone, but directly and not going through the filter of social media or news movements is it’s increasingly important, and that will be one of the main channels for us to unify as many people as possible.

[00:38:16.42] spk_1:
So we’re talking about creating these both online and offline, right? Um, people powered people, centred movements. Um, how, Gloria, how do we want nonprofits to think about or what we need to think about in terms of doing this, organizing, creating these these movements,

[00:39:11.07] spk_4:
I’m First of all, it’s about inclusivity. Okay, So, um, at least from where we set Mom’s rising and me speaking on behalf of Monster Rising right now, we want to make sure that whatever we do and if it’s the most people and harms no one at all, if possible. So that’s one part of it. How we speak, how we communicate to make sure that what we’re speaking and how we communicate does not reinforce add stereotypes that creates divisions. Okay, that’s one way, another way, not way. But another thing to consider are also the tools that we’re using. Are we using your people are on different kinds of communication tools. Some people only do Facebook. Other people only do on email on dhe. There also is like text messaging there. All of these new community communications goes towards coming on and being on top of the different tools. Superb, warden, Because we need to meet people where they are. Um, because you’re just a couple of thoughts.

[00:39:36.49] spk_1:
Okay. Um so sorry, Selina. So we’re talking about diversity equity inclusion. Let’s drill down into a little bit of, like, what do we What do we need to do around our communications that is more equitable and non harming?

[00:39:57.72] spk_3:
So I think that’s an important question of us. Definitely something that has been injured in the leaks work over the last, I would say five years, but more intentionally over the last two. I’m sorry. I

[00:40:01.52] spk_1:
mean, he’s sorry. Whose work?

[00:42:09.00] spk_3:
The league. I’m sorry. I always refer to the League of Women Voters with us. Okay. Colleagues were led. Sorry. Boats that are full title is just too long for me to keep saying so. I just prefer to see Oh, I got you know, d I is very, very important for us. You know, our organization has historically been older white women. We’ve also always had members of color. But I don’t know that they were always at the forefront. So for us, our work is really centered in two questions and everything that we’re doing, who’s at the table and who should be at the table who’s missing. So I think starting all of our conversation in the efforts that we’re doing with those two questions allows us to center on our work in diversity, equity inclusion and also use our power as, um, people who have had access to legislator stakeholders, et cetera. How did we use our power and in a way that allows access of inclusivity for more people. So I think that that is really important and something that DEA diversity and inclusion work. It’s hard just versus It’s not easy, you know it. It gets very uncomfortable a lot of times when you’re talking about privilege, patriarchy and all of the talk about as it relates to d I. But it’s so important to get comfortable being uncomfortable and having these conversations that the only way I think that we can start to build a bridge towards unifying Um, CA music is at the end of the day, we may be politically, but at the end of the day, we all share many of the very same values which is historically united this country. Like right now we’re in the midst of the Corona virus. The Corona virus doesn’t care where the Republican Democrat black, white, female male does. It doesn’t matter. I’m at the end of the day, we all have to make sure that we’re doing what we can to be safe as individuals. But also our actions greatly impact the people around us. So it’s more of a It’s more of a community mindset that’s required or to tap this down. So I know that that’s like a little offset. All shoot from what we’re talking about. But I think it all placed together in some way, shape or form.

[00:42:30.65] spk_1:
Okay, um, Gloria about for moms rising. And how do you ensure that your communications are equitable on dhe? Non harmful?

[00:43:35.32] spk_4:
Well, Mom’s Rising has very intentionally built an organization that tries to bring different voices to the table. We are intersectional and we are multi issue, and so from our staff were very bad person, many, many different ways, and from the way that we choose which issues to work on, we also take into consideration which these are being impacted and how we communicate about those and then the way that we campaign is that our campaigns are always overlap. And so there is different people within the organization as well as a partner policy partners from different issue areas. They help us that our issues and the way that we communicate with them to make sure that you know you are we’re not communicating in a way that that that excludes communities, reinforces bad stereotype pipes and raises red flags, make make, make people feel bad ways that we don’t understand because of where we individuals. Campaigners. No. So everything we do is very thoroughly betters through different filters.

[00:43:48.70] spk_1:
Okay, so you re vetting. Yeah, please. Yeah, so, you know,

[00:44:55.97] spk_3:
I totally agree with what glorious said. I think that’s really important because the league is also multi issue and kind of has that you have to compete when you multiple issues. You sometimes have toe think a little differently about how you present yourself on each issue in orderto not negatively impact the whole set of what you’re trying to accomplish. And so for us and the communication speaks, I’m expressly is thinking about whether it’s appropriate who’s the appropriate messenger when we’re communicating so Is it appropriate for the league to be a leader in this space, or do we need to take a step back and be a supporter? So I think that’s one of the things that’s very important for us. Communication wise is we’re figuring out what is what space are we gonna take up in the communication in space and how we’re gonna communicate this issue and then the other pieces Who’s talking? Who is the person that we’re putting in front actually speak about a particular issue and is, Is that the right person? And are they speaking from the lens that’s most appropriate for that particular issue that’s gonna be impacted most as a result of what you’re saying or doing? So I think that’s very important. With Gloria lifted up

[00:46:14.78] spk_1:
time for our last break turn to communications relationships, the world runs on them. We know this turn to is led by former journalists, so you’re going to get their help building relationships with journalists. They’ve been there, they know how to do it. They know what the pitfalls are and they know how to do it wrong so they will steer you to the right way to build relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field. They specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for people powered movements with Selena Stewart and Gloria Pan. How do you manage the conflicting issues? If you know, I guess it’s because there are issues where you have a large constituency on one side of one issue. But something else may seem contrary to that to that large constituency. A different issue that you’re taking a stand on Is that Is that my understanding? Right when you say, you know, potential issue conflict?

[00:46:51.33] spk_3:
Well, when you have a 500,000 members and supporters and you’re in every congressional district, everybody can agree on on how to approach an issue. But what grounds? The league is our mission. Our mission is to empower voters and democracy. Power people defend democracy. So I think as long as you stay rooted in what your chin values statement is that you can find some reconciliation across, you know the most seemingly divergent issues Okay,

[00:46:58.68] spk_1:
climate change That I think would probably be a good example. I was just

[00:47:11.43] spk_4:
I was I was gonna add, okay, that just to step back a little bit. The one thing that I am super super proud of, um, is that a toll east for progressives? I think that we’re actually pretty consistent in about our agreement on your shoes. We may have different levels of intensity and what we agree with, but I think they’re very few conflicts. We may not agree on how to get somewhere, but we all agree on where we want to go. Okay, So in that way, I rather feel, at least from Mom’s rising standpoint, we rarely get. I can’t even think of a single instance where we have conflicts because we’re not agreeing with each other or with policy partners on the most important thing where we’re heading.

[00:47:45.75] spk_3:
So I think that’s a difference, because are the league is it’s not left or right leaning were kind of way. We have members who are both conservative and liberal. Yeah, have some of that conflict more in that. But I think you’re absolutely right. Do we all want the same things and a healthier, more vibrant democracy. Absolutely. So you have to find some common ground in that space. But we definitely have members who are who want to handle things. One way, versus the other. We have to find common ground.

[00:49:02.57] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s the challenge. I was trying to get it. Yeah, okay. It helps. At least it helps me to think of an example like climate change. You know, some. There are some people who don’t even believe that it’s it’s human impacted. And there are others who think, where decades behind and in our inaction Teoh Teoh, reverse the effects of human induced climate change. So, um, it’s Ah, that’s that’s quite a challenge. Really. So, um Okay, Well, where else? Well, should we go with these people? Powered movement ideas? You you, you to spend a lot more time studying this. So what else should we be talking about? That we haven’t yet. I

[00:49:02.65] spk_4:
would actually love to hear from Selena how the league is dealing with. I’m doing your work remotely.

[00:49:10.59] spk_3:
You guys are already virtual. This is like, No, no sweat for you guys, right? Well, you know,

[00:49:37.30] spk_4:
I mean, we do have, you know, our plans range from virtually all the way down to the grassroots. Right? And I think especially for organizations like your Selena, we share the, um, the common goal this year of border engagements. I am very sorry I opened the door. Family a letter out. I’m

[00:49:43.14] spk_3:
very sorry. Okay.

[00:49:45.25] spk_1:
All right. So, you know, um, terms of remote working, but yeah, but how it relates to this topic of people power.

[00:50:59.86] spk_3:
Yeah. So I think that’s really, really important. We’re definitely so it is one thing to convert toe er teleworking, right? That’s one thing. But when your work is so much advocacy, um, and especially the leaders on the ground who are doing voter registration, which requires you to be on the ground talking to people, you know, that has shifted our work. So one of the examples that we have because we have our people power fair mass campaign, which is basically trying to get redistricting reform for across the country and a positive waste that we don’t have another situation like we had in North Carolina where you’re from, tell me and also and Maryland subs we wanna we wanna make sure that you know people are represented appropriately, but a lot of the states that were working in they have a signature collection campaigns going on right now. So how do you do signature collection when you can’t actually be within three or six feet of people? So now many of our leaks air converting to digital signatures and going through their legislator to make those adjustments that they can still collect signatures and meet that need, et cetera, Our love. We have a lobby core, which is 21 volunteers that goes to the hill every month. Obviously, with the hill being also teleworking, it created what we thought might be a barrier. But now our lobbies are doing virtual coffee meetings on Zoom just like this and having those conversations with legislators, legislative staff and all of those things. So I think that the Corona virus has forced us to do our work in a different way. But it’s also being great to innovate and be creative and do the work that people love just in a different way. So we it’s not perfect. I don’t even want to make you think that this is perfect because it’s definitely not. But I think that there’s a lot of positive energy about doing our work and finding ways to do our work in different ways.

[00:52:27.38] spk_1:
Which, okay, is thinking creatively. I for our for our listeners. And I don’t want to focus just on Mom’s rising and legal women voters us. I want them to recognize how what we’re talking about can be applied by them, how they they, what they need to go back to their CEOs or whatever vice presidents wegner And what kind of like discussion items they need to be putting forward at the organization is not now thinking about in terms of, you know, again, people power revolution is coming. Yeah, you know how how how can our listeners helped create it?

[00:53:21.55] spk_3:
I think just becoming involved, like when you’re talking about people powered anything, it’s really about base building. And for me, the goals of base base building are always to grow. A base of volunteers who have a shared value of some sort and you’re coming together in orderto makes the progressive movement on that. It’s also about leadership, development, communities and constituency who turn out who are players in this issue or what have you and then putting issues to the forefront. So I think that wherever you is, what do you value? What’s important to you? You could be a simple as Hey, there’s a pothole, my street that has been fixed in the last year. Can we come together as a community and really talk with our local election officials about making sure our streets are in a position that’s not gonna record cars or have someone get endangered in some way? So I think it comes down to, as on an individual level, what is important to you. What do you value and finding and connecting with those people? Also, that you something similar? And what do you want to change? What is it that you’re trying to change or that would make your life better? And who were the people who can support you in getting that done?

[00:53:55.15] spk_1:
That’s consistent with what you said down an organization level to the same. You know what? The core values, that’s what that’s what drives all the work on, brings people together finding that commonality around, whether it’s the pothole in the street and the individual level.

[00:54:01.45] spk_3:
Whoever whatever. Here, whatever.

[00:54:08.59] spk_1:
Jim Yeah, Gloria, What? What’s your advice for how people can contribute to this revolution.

[00:55:16.50] spk_4:
Um, I think that right now we’re all sitting in our homes and we’re rethinking the way that we do our work. And even as individuals, we’re rethinking the way that we are doing our activism. You think that a very important message right now for activists personally and for organizations that organize activists and try to recruit and build the base, is that now is not the time to step away. Now, more important than ever, it is important to stand top of the issues, to sign those petitions, to speak up and to share your stories, because I will give you a very, very specific example. Right now, Congress is negotiating, arguing over all of these different critical needs in the Corona virus relief bills. While Mom’s Rising has been on the forefront of trying to influence those negotiations. And the most powerful weapon we have are your stories, people stories, what’s gonna happen to your child care center that has to close down what’s gonna happen to a domestic workers who suddenly don’t have a paycheck? Um, paid family leave. This is something that a signature mounds rising issue. We’ve been working on luck forever ever since. Our founding is one of our signature issues. But now, because of the stories that we have gathered and we’re hearing from our members about the need for pay leave and the fact that if we had had paid leave all this time that the burden of Corona virus would have been much lighter this is something that we’re powerfully bringing to the negotiating table. And we’re actually seeing We’re going on paid leave. So all organizations and all individuals, whatever issues that you’re working on, do not step away, continue to share your stories because those stories have to be brought to the negotiating table for policy. And that’s the only way we’re gonna get the policy that we need.

[00:57:30.53] spk_1:
Okay, We’re gonna leave it there. That’s Ah, quite inspirational. Thank you. That’s Ah, That’s Gloria Pan, Vice President, member engagement, engagement at Mom’s Rising. And also Selena Stewart, senior director of advocacy and litigation. The League of Women voters. Us though Gloria Selena. Thank you very much. Thanks for sharing. Thank you, Tommy. Pleasure and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? Thanks so much for being with us next week. An archive show. I promise you, I’ll pick a winner If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our creative producer is clear, Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy on this music is by Scots Dying with me next week for not profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

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[00:00:57.60] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the unlearned. 95%. I’m your aptly named host. That live music can only mean one thing our 5/100 show. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I did get slapped with a diagnosis of Corretta Conus. If I saw that you missed today’s show the 5/100 it’s non profit radios, 10th Anniversary and 5/100 show. It’s also our last live stream. After today, we’re gonna be podcast only to celebrate all these milestones. We’ve got the whole gang together. Claire Meyerhoff are creative Producer is co hosting. We’ve got the live music from Scott Stein, composer of our theme music. Each of our esteemed contributors will be with us. Jean Takagi, Maria Simple and Amy Sample Ward, and we have a bunch of surprises.

[00:01:44.64] spk_2:
Our 5/100 show is sponsored by Cure Coffee connecting coffee lovers with coffee farmers and their families. Kira coffee dot com. We are also sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Visit tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial. And we are also sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn Hyson to dot co. That’s turned hyphen two dot co.

[00:01:50.24] spk_1:
That professional voice can only be one. It’s clear. Meyerhoff. Claire Meyerhoff, Welcome,

[00:02:01.24] spk_2:
tony-martignetti. This is the first time for us on Zoom. But I feel like you’re right here because you’re right there on my laptop.

[00:02:14.71] spk_1:
It feels it feels close. Yeah, Every every anniversary show has been, ah, in the studio. This one, of course, can’t be. But we pull it together because it’s the 10th anniversary and I’m grateful to you because you’ve been creative producer of this show since, like Episode one before that Episode zero You were creative producer.

[00:02:20.81] spk_2:
Yeah, about a little over 10 years ago, you and I had a dinner and you said, You know

[00:02:24.64] spk_5:
what I want to do. I want

[00:02:25.37] spk_2:
to do a radio show and I said, Do

[00:02:27.19] spk_5:
you have any idea how hard it is to do a radio show? And you’re like, No, I don’t care. I’m doing a radio

[00:02:32.22] spk_2:
show. Will you help

[00:02:33.62] spk_5:
me? And

[00:02:33.97] spk_2:
I said, sure. And here We are 10 years

[00:02:38.63] spk_1:
old playing love it, love it and you have that professional radio training to so that. But also

[00:02:43.96] spk_2:
I have a background in radio

[00:02:45.39] spk_1:
indeed, indeed. So how have you been? How are you managing what’s going on at the PG agency?

[00:02:51.53] spk_2:
Well, you know, I help. I help nonprofits of all shapes and sizes with their plan giving. And so that’s been fun. And I’ve been honing some of my skills at home like learning GarageBand and some different things that I didn’t have time to learn before. So that’s been that’s been quite interesting of a few new little endeavors, and I have some nice clients. It’s been interesting because I started out 2020 with this list of five clients I was working with, and then all of a sudden in March, like it all just changed and some went away, and one that was like a little project turned into now, like my main client, because they were in a different situation. So it’s really shown us sort of the fluidity of things in the nonprofit

[00:03:31.95] spk_1:
world. Well, that’s very gratifying. They love your work so much that they brought you in to do more.

[00:03:38.24] spk_2:
Yes, well, they had they had more need, and then other people had less less need and less money. So, um, I like more. More money and more need. That’s always That’s always good. When you’re independent person like we are,

[00:03:49.44] spk_1:
money follows expertise. That that’s you. And you. Um hey, Scott’s dying. How you been? I’m good. How are you, tony? Oh, fabulously Scott Stein, of course. The composer of cheap red wine, which you’ll be performing shortly. What’s been going on musically for you since, uh, late march?

[00:04:37.11] spk_3:
Uh um, Well, it’s certainly been a little slower than usual, as you can imagine is not a whole lot in the way of live music. Um, but finding ways to stay busy. Um, I teach and said my teaching it just has just gone online. Um, I have a couple of choirs that I conduct, and we are finding new and creative ways to stay active and stay connected and keep making music online. Ah, we all miss each other very much, but this is a good way to stay connected and, um, actually doing a couple of gigs here and there, mostly via zoom occasionally have been able to do an outdoor, socially distanced concert, Um, doing one a week from Sunday in Brooklyn, where I live, and, um so that’s always good. It’s just it’s just you just have to stay busy and stay active and and And that that keeps you motivated keeps you moving

[00:05:01.47] spk_1:
the online concerts. That sounds like an interesting idea. Yeah,

[00:05:10.88] spk_3:
it Ah, it works. You know, Um, it’s, um I think it’s probably gonna be with us for for a while, and but

[00:05:14.84] spk_5:
it’s, you know,

[00:05:47.00] spk_3:
it’s a nice way to play. It is a little weird. You finish a song and you’re used to hearing some sort of a pause and you just hear nothing. And so I mean, you hear you see people on mute clapping. It’s very And also when you banter, that’s the thing. Like, you know, we try to keep things light. And if you make a comment that you think it’s funny and you don’t get a response, it’s like I don’t know that was funny or not. I have no idea. I’ll just assume it was It’s strange, but it’s ah, you know, it keeps us making music, and that’s you know that’s the main thing right now.

[00:06:34.57] spk_1:
I attended a couple of online stand up comedy shows, Onda 1st 1 The producer kept this audience muted because he was afraid that people would be charming, intimate. But that was very disruptive to the comics to not know your I’ve done some some stand up, not to the caliber that these folks have, but you’re playing to the audience when the audience, when the laughter starts to subside, you know, you start talking, you don’t you don’t want a dead zone of no laughter, you know, and you got a time it. But they couldn’t do that because they don’t have the feedback. So but the producer learned, and then all the other shows. You know, the audience has been un muted, and they’ve been respectful and no hecklers. But it’s important for that. That feedback, you know, for a comic, just like you’re saying for a musician to get feedback.

[00:06:46.34] spk_3:
Yeah, And the best part about about doing this via Zoom though, is you do get a heckler. You can mute that person. Yes, you can. You can do that in a club. So? So there is that advantage. The

[00:06:57.07] spk_1:
equivalent would be like cutting off their head or having having I think security bounce there bounced their ass out, right? Yeah, In a live setting,

[00:07:05.47] spk_3:
it’s It’s a much less it requires a lot less aggression to just hit mute. Yeah, I kinda like that.

[00:07:20.24] spk_1:
Claire, did you do any any, um, performances by type, like your You void with that professional voice of yours, you have a podcast.

[00:07:21.77] spk_2:
I do have. I have a new podcast and I’ll be happy to chat a little bit about it. And that’s appropriate because the name of my podcast is charitable chitchat with Cathy and Claire

[00:07:34.91] spk_1:
considerations as much as I do. Well,

[00:07:36.54] spk_5:
it all works out

[00:08:23.10] spk_2:
cause it’s also Cathy with a C and clear with the sea. So we really like all our C. So I do it with with my friend and colleague Kathy Sheffield from Fort Worth, Texas, and she’s a very experienced, planned giving person, and she and I have talked about doing it for a while. And then when Cove it hit, we said, Well, we have no excuse. So I learned how to do garage band and record stuff, and I do all the editing and production, and Kathy and I do a podcast and it’s planned, giving focused. And each episode we have one guest, and we’ve had some awesome guests on from the California Community Foundation and North Well, Health Um, Nature Conservancy and a wonderful volunteer from the Girl Scouts of America who’s helped bring their plan giving program in less than 10 years from 400 plan giving donors to 4000. Yeah, nine years, so very successful programs. So we have a lot of great shows coming up, and, uh, it’s charitable. Should check dot com with Cathy and Claire.

[00:08:34.27] spk_1:
Is that that’s Is that what prompted the GarageBand learning that you talked about?

[00:08:43.04] spk_2:
Yes, it definitely prompted the GarageBand learning, and I had plenty of time to learn that. And, you know, I have a production background, but I had never worked with GarageBand, so some of it was intuitive and others. I was looking all over YouTube for tutorials and found some really helpful things. And hey, if I can do it, anybody can do it. So it’s It’s been a lot of fun, and it’s, you know, it’s nice to have a new project during Cove it because there’s nothing new, right? It’s like the same same house, Same different day.

[00:09:05.24] spk_1:
I did something similar. Other and audacity.

[00:09:07.64] spk_2:
Well, that’s great. Yeah, Audacity is a great A

[00:09:29.43] spk_1:
comparable GarageBand s. I knew so little about audacity when I started. I was ready to write a big check. I figured this is such a popular program app. It must be like 200 or 250 bucks. And that’s how little I knew about it. It’s free. Yes, audacity is absolutely. But I didn’t know that’s how little I knew. Right now I’ve gotten familiar with it.

[00:09:30.72] spk_2:
Well, there’s a lot to do when you learn like podcasting on your own. There isn’t sort of one solution out there That’s kind of like, Oh, the podcasting solution. No, you have to like, you have to record your interview on something like Zoom and get that into an MP three. Then you jump that into GarageBand or audacity. You cut that up, you add your music. That’s another situation, and then you have to up. I uploaded to Buzz Sprout after I’ve produced it, and then from Bud Sprout, you have to subscribe to the different service is like apple podcasts and Spotify and I heart radio and do that and and then you do it over and over, and it’s It’s a lot. It really is a lot to learn. There is a learning curve with do it yourself podcasting.

[00:10:21.69] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, You said you said you bring in the music. Let’s let’s bring in the music. Hey, Scott, remind us. Cheap red wine. Now, this is Ah, been our theme song for many years at ATTN. Non profit radio. Remind me the genesis of rind us the genesis of cheap red wine, please. And then and then play it for us.

[00:11:10.94] spk_3:
Sure. Ah, song Ah, I recorded it on a record back in 2009 record called Jukebox, and I’d wrote it probably about a year before that. Um, I like to describe this is coming from my angry young man phase. You wouldn’t know it from maybe from listening to it, but ah, yeah, I was. I was living, um, on the Upper West Side of Manhattan and, um, social circles that Iran in when I wasn’t playing, which was to say, my roommate’s friends Ah, there was a lot of people who worked in law and Finance. And I think they didn’t know quite what to make of me. They didn’t kind of understand that you could play music for a living, and, um and so and it’s also a big single scene up there. And I was single at the time, and I got a little cynical because I sort of felt like I was just in the wrong profession to be dating. So this some kind of grew out of that? Um I will add that I have been happily married for seven years now with, uh, with a wonderful son. So it all worked out, but anyway, so that’s where the song kinda had its origins.

[00:11:34.88] spk_1:
Alright, Please, Scott Stein. Cheap red wine.

[00:14:43.24] spk_0:
Just keep on talking sooner or later off around. What you mean a TV screen way in each other? You know, I used to find a charming can hands now promise diamonds. They won’t tired of the cut of clothing that I will wear good stuff too easily distracted. Teoh, I got too many options, so I’m gonna My goodness. But maybe you have some competition with radio. A wealthy man. I got used promises on the way for Heaven’s national victor Sound. Nobody else. No way You used a charming but

[00:14:45.88] spk_2:
I can’t

[00:14:46.43] spk_5:

[00:14:49.46] spk_0:
how. Never mind it.

[00:14:50.32] spk_5:
Don’t matter now

[00:14:56.71] spk_0:
Your time promises.

[00:16:03.74] spk_1:
I love that song, Scott. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks. There’s nobody waiting in line. We’re just, like, cheap red wine. Thank you. I love it.

[00:16:07.77] spk_3:
I I remembered those lyrics

[00:16:14.04] spk_1:
I don’t worry about that happens. So, Claire, I got this. I got some new venture planned giving accelerator

[00:16:19.38] spk_2:
s. It sounds very, very exciting.

[00:16:21.78] spk_1:
You in the plan? Giving space. So, yes,

[00:16:23.44] spk_2:
I am

[00:16:31.68] spk_1:
in the, uh, arena of shameless self promotion. Uh, okay. Planned giving accelerator. It’s, um it’s a membership community. I launched it two weeks ago. Nonprofits joined for an annual membership on, and I will teach them everything I know about starting and then growing. Yes, Land giving programs.

[00:16:45.73] spk_2:
That sounds great. So is it a month? Do people come on a webinar monthly or how do what do What do people get for their yearly subscription? How does that look to the to the non profit person hoping to grow their plane giving program?

[00:17:04.08] spk_1:
No, I hadn’t thought through that? No, they, uh, like tony get we’re gonna have ah, got

[00:17:05.89] spk_5:
a nice

[00:17:08.43] spk_1:
poster. There’s exclusive. Yes, there were exclusive webinars. We’ll probably get to a month. Will be exclusive podcasts. One or two of those a month. I’ll be doing small group asked me anything. Sessions on zoom Very nine. Talk through individual potential donor challenges, Suspect challenges or Doctor, you’re marking materials in their small groups. Um, there’s a Facebook community. Very nice. All exclusive, Just two members. It all kicks off. October 1st 1st group starts October 1st, and that’s what we’re promoting for. And it’s that planned giving accelerator dot com.

[00:18:07.44] spk_2:
Well, there’s a lot of Nate out there. A lot of non profits are not in the plan giving game or in the playing giving space. They think it’s too scary. They need technical knowledge. They can’t do it. They need too much staff, whatever. But frankly, any non profit can do something with plan giving and bring in those all important planned gifts. Also, I think you’ll be helping to educate people about like asking for non cash assets and things as well, like how toe you know, do more a little bit more complex gift giving.

[00:18:25.51] spk_1:
We will eventually we’re going to start off with getting bequests, Yes, but there’s only the whole groundwork. As you’re suggesting, there’s old groundwork that’s got to go before you start. Before you start promoting, you gotta promote to the right people on. Then give them the right message.

[00:18:43.84] spk_2:
Yes, and you have to have a back end. That’s the first thing that I help my clients with. It’s like, Well, what did they have? Do they even have information on their website? Like some plate people have nothing on their website and in, um, our most recent episode of our of our charitable chitchat podcast. We had a great this volunteer from the Girl Scouts, and she got started because she had updated her estate plans about 10 years ago, and she included the Girl Scouts. And then she happened to be in New York City not long after that, where the headquarters are. So she went to go meet with the development person, just a drop off like a copy of her, whatever her paperwork and the development person wasn’t there. So she met with the CEO and she sat down with the CEO and she said, Well,

[00:19:09.89] spk_5:
you know, I was updating my estate

[00:19:11.77] spk_2:
plans and I went to go find someone for

[00:19:13.81] spk_5:
I couldn’t find any information

[00:19:38.64] spk_2:
on your website about that. Why is that? And the CEO was like, I don’t know why. And then they from there they created a whole good, great plan giving programs. So, you know, the back end is first off. You need to have some information on your website. You need a dedicated page with some request language with your contact information with your tax I d. Just a couple of things. And if you have that Web page, then you can start getting in the plan giving game.

[00:19:40.37] spk_1:
That’s the beginning. And that’s the kind of stuff we’re gonna be talking about. Easy promotion.

[00:19:44.49] spk_2:
You gotta get in

[00:20:01.38] spk_1:
identifying the right people to promote to and giving them the right message and how to do that. And then how to follow up how to talk to your board about planned to give an all important, all all to get planned giving program started in the audience that I’m always most interested in. Small and midsize shot

[00:20:12.57] spk_2:
Me, too. I love I love the small nonprofits and there’s you anyone can get started in plan giving. So I think that your program is is really great, because if if you have, don’t your small non profit you have donors and they’re gonna leave. Some charities in there will, but they’re not gonna leave your charity in their will if you’ve never promoted the idea. And you’ve never communicated the idea

[00:20:25.96] spk_1:
absolutely right that absolutely, you need to be asking. So we

[00:20:28.95] spk_2:
need to be asking

[00:20:32.04] spk_1:
if you’re ready to get plan giving Started, Planned Giving accelerator

[00:20:33.77] spk_2:
call. Well, I’m looking forward to seeing the evolution of of this, and I think it’s a great it’s much needed in the space, and I think you’ll be successful and help a lot of people along the way. And that’s that’s what we’re all about. Helping helping nonprofits, especially the little ones,

[00:21:09.74] spk_1:
and someone who’s helping me toe promote planned giving accelerator is is with us. These Peter Panda Pento is part of a partner in turn to communications just renewed their sponsorship for a second year, which we are very grateful for. I’m very grateful for Peter. Welcome to the show. Great to be here, tony. Great to be back

[00:21:13.06] spk_4:
here. Tony, we’ve been checking in very regularly over the years. Excited to be part of this milestone episode.

[00:21:29.48] spk_1:
Oh, thank you. Yes, 500 shows. 10 years on. I’m grateful for your sponsorship. You and your partner, Scott turn to what? What? What’s on your, uh, what’s on your plate these days? We’re doing a

[00:22:07.83] spk_4:
lot of media relations work these days. A lot of nonprofits and foundations that we work with are really looking for to try to break through the clutter right now and get their stories told in the media, which is a really challenging thing right now during Cove in 19. I mean, it’s always challenging, but right now we have so many media outlets that are, um, operating with with furloughed staffs and with people kind of playing out of position, covering different beats. And, ah, nonprofits are really looking for extra support and trying to figure out who they need to connect with, how they can connect with them and how they can connect what they’re doing to the prevailing story lines of our time, which are Cove in 19 and racial justice and equity. And so we’ve been spending a lot of our efforts there, in addition to working with you on the plane, giving accelerator and other things tell

[00:22:33.19] spk_1:
indeed, yes, challenging times indeed, to get your voice heard. But it’s doable. As I say in the sponsor messages. You know, if you if you have those relationships with journalists, if you have the right hook, you can you can be heard even in the in the Corona virus cacophony.

[00:23:06.21] spk_4:
Absolutely, absolutely. And the relationships are really important. And, um, what I think a lot of nonprofits and really all organizations still make. The mistake in doing is thinking they can kind of spray and pray their way to, ah, success with media relations by spray and pray Amin kind of spraying out press releases to everybody and hope and praying that somebody picks it up. What really works is when you have some relationships with journalists who really cover the topics you care about and that they’re actually thinking of you when they’re looking for sources rather than the other way around.

[00:23:12.07] spk_2:
Yes, and as a former reporter, I wholeheartedly agree, because back in the day, as a as a news reporter for working in all news radio and working in television. You would get these, like, spray and pray, kind of like press releases and stuff that had nothing to do with anything you normally cover. And you know, you really need a more targeted approach and build a relationship. And I think nowadays it’s easy to build a relationship with news people because they’re all on Twitter and they’re all on Facebook and you can follow them and comment on their on their things and get to know them a little bit that way.

[00:23:41.84] spk_4:
Absolutely. I think investing in in a handful of those relationships and really trying to make sure you’re nurturing the journalists who actually care about what and and reach the people you need to reach. There’s so much value in doing that. You’re absolutely right.

[00:23:58.68] spk_1:
This and Peter, thank you again for your sponsorship of non profit radio.

[00:24:03.74] spk_4:
I love the partnership. I’m really glad to support her head, and I really believe strongly in what you do, tony. So we’re happy Teoh to be sponsors and to be part of this great community.

[00:24:13.75] spk_1:
Thanks so much. Turn hyphen to you. Want Check them you want? Check them out. Turn hyphen too dot ceo. Thanks so much, Peter.

[00:24:20.79] spk_4:
Thank you very

[00:26:11.18] spk_1:
much, Peter. Thanks, Claire. I have a story I want to read from from one of our listeners milled, uh, Mildred Devo. I’m the founder and executive director of Penn Parental, a small literary non profit that helps writers stay on creative track after they start a family. I got into non profit work because I had the idea for this collective of supportive writers running programs to defy the stereotype, which was rampant in nearly two thousands, that having kids would kill your creative career. I was already running a salon, Siri’s, that featured the diversity of work by writers who had kids. And I wanted to do more to prove to women and men that parenthood was just a life event and not an alternate alternate career. I self funded a fellowship for writers who were new parents and a lawyer approached me and asked if I had considered turning my ideas into a non profit I never had. She helped me pro bono. Now it is 10 years later, and pen parental has helped countless writers finish their creative projects despite the challenges of raising kids issues heightened to epic levels during the pandemic. We have one arts grants from New York City as well as New York State Council for the Arts. As a writer with two kids, it makes me laugh that all the encouragement I give to other writers has just now finally come home to my own career. I finally finished writing my first novel. I Want to Thank You. This is the touching Thank you so much. I want to thank you and and your non profit radio feel that inspiring. I feel that listening to recordings of past live streams, I’ve been exposed to some of the top minds working in non profit. Today. It’s like having an M B A in arts administration right at your fingertips, or at least the faculty of one. I’ve gained a lot by listening. So thank u s touching and, uh, milled, uh, milled is with us. Well, welcome to the show.

[00:26:18.21] spk_5:
Thanks. Thank you so much. It’s really exciting to be here. Did you see me taking notes?

[00:26:22.49] spk_1:
I was already took. I was like, clock town

[00:26:26.09] spk_2:
milled. I love milled his hair. That’s beautiful. Thank you. It looks very nice.

[00:26:54.44] spk_1:
That’s got beautiful bang. Great. Did I pronounce your name? Right? Okay. Have you been listening to non profit radio for a while? I have For forever. Yeah. Yeah, I frequently when I googled something that I don’t know, I will find a link, you know, on Facebook or somewhere, I’ll find a link to a show, and

[00:27:00.51] spk_6:
it s so it works like I don’t know, because I really, really, really learned

[00:28:37.84] spk_1:
this from the ground up, just sort of as I was doing it and Ah, yeah, it’s really so we’re gonna put on a plan giving page pretty much, yes, but it’s really it’s really wonderful that you bring all these experts together and when you interview them so so many of them are so generous with their time with their contact information, like it’s kind of spectacular, But I really kind of got into your show after you did the foundation center. I love the foundation center and motivated that can with them all their candid now candid. Well, they were there were the foundation center. You’re not wrong to call them that. They were that they were that back then when But for the you did I think four sessions or some Some amount of sessions, please. And you could go there and be a live audience, or you could watch it after it. So, yes, it was. It was non profit radio month at the Foundation Center and the Foundation Center month on non profit radio. That was very cool. Very cool partnership with the Roman. Thank you. I also like all the partnerships that you have with all the different companies. Like everybody said. Just what? Um, the guy that was just on Peter was saying that you develop these relationships. Well, I think I feel like I learned something from that from you. Outstanding Milton. That’s why I do the show. Thank you so much. So, for your for your generosity, do non profit radio and for sharing your how I got into nonprofits story we have Ah, we’re gonna send you a bag of cure coffee. Uh, I love coffee. Bring me coffee. It’s

[00:28:40.70] spk_2:
a wonderful prize. How you want to hear more about it? Cure a coffee directly connects coffee lovers with farmers and families who harvest the finest organic coffee beans. With every cup of cura, you join our effort to expand sustainable dental care to remote communities are around the world. We are direct trade coffee company with direct impact brought directly to you creating organic smiles beyond the cup cure coffee dot com. And that is your prize. Thank

[00:29:22.78] spk_1:
you. Listen, thanks so much again for sharing your story and for being a loyal listener. Really? It’s touching. Thank you. It’s so kind of you. I’m really grateful. And I love how you’re Musician nodded when he when I talked about having kids at home and being creative. That’s why I run a non profit for that reaction. I

[00:29:26.56] spk_3:
e that so much? Yeah,

[00:29:30.78] spk_1:
creatives are trying to create. So anybody who wants to pin Prentice said word we’d love the Have you come and find out what we dio and thank you again. So much for having me on the

[00:29:40.42] spk_5:
show was a

[00:29:50.34] spk_1:
place. Enjoy your coffee. Yeah. Yes. Pen parental as got or thank you. Thanks along, Claire. You’re You’re creative. You you’ve been writing.

[00:30:56.94] spk_2:
Yes, I am. I am, I am. It’s a It’s a blessing and a curse being a creative person because the brain just never shuts off. So we’re always making stuff from a tender age. I was like sitting on my front lawn with a basket of crayons and my mother register like an old egg carton or something in a pipe cleaners. And before you know it, we had, like, costumes and putting on a show. So that’s that’s my childhood. So I have written for you a special 1/10 anniversary problem for non profit radio. So would you like me to read it? Toe. Okay, here we go. Let’s celebrate a decade of the show by tony-martignetti. Here’s my poem. It’s goofy, so you better get ready. Tony had an idea. Tony had a vision. Tony wanted a radio show, so he made a decision. He started his show. He booked his first guest. He worked on a format, and then all the rest production with Sam Music with Scott sponsors and quizzes Man, that’s a lot Top trends and Tony’s take to non profit radio We love you. 10 years later, and 500 shows your silver anniversary, your listener ship grows your tony-martignetti non profit radio top trends. Sound advice. Should I end this poem? Yes, that sounds nice. Happy anniversary, tony.

[00:31:13.55] spk_1:
Should I send this up our mess Sounds like Thank you. Clear my raf. Sweet. Thank you very much.

[00:31:18.82] spk_2:
You got in somewhere.

[00:31:20.32] spk_1:
What a creative. I love it. Thank

[00:31:21.94] spk_2:
you. You know, it’s fun. Thank you. Something to do? It’s coverted.

[00:31:24.34] spk_1:
That’s very sweet. I am not gonna keep doing things that silver anniversary. I don’t think I thought of that. That’s right. The silver silver anniversary. Well,

[00:31:31.63] spk_2:
you know, I was thinking of ideas. I was like, What can I do for tony? Silver anniversary. And I was like, I was like, Well, it is the silver anniversary. That’s 10 years. It’s silver. So maybe I should send him, like, an engraved set of silver candlesticks. Or maybe I’ll write him a poem.

[00:31:45.52] spk_1:
Well, you could do the candlesticks to know they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. What?

[00:31:59.08] spk_2:
Amy, like those? I could do like 11 Right. You could do it for your in Amy’s tent. That wins your 10th anniversary. Did you have it? You missed it. Yeah, I missed. Okay. We’ll catch on the next one.

[00:32:00.28] spk_1:
Catch me on this one. It’s not

[00:32:01.43] spk_2:
old. Wait for your gold wedding.

[00:32:08.99] spk_1:
Oh, no, no, no. Wait. Office engineering by mere numbers it, Z, I’m gonna send you

[00:32:13.50] spk_2:
something really funny.

[00:32:22.95] spk_1:
That silver gift. I will. Then the expensive silver gift. Don’t don’t be constrained by by the artificiality of numbers. So, you know,

[00:32:24.04] spk_2:
I’m gonna go to Bloomingdale’s and register you.

[00:33:04.44] spk_1:
We got we got all our all our contributors there. Will our esteemed contributors air here? Nice. Yes, Absolutely. I see. Um, I see them. Indeed. I see Amy Sample Ward, our social social media technology contributor, and Jean Takagi, of course, our legal contributor and the brains behind the wildly popular non profit law block dot com and Maria Simple, the Prospect Finder at the prospect finder dot com. Welcome, Maria. Gene and Amy. Welcome. Hey. Hey, there. Thank you very much, Amy. See also Amy, of course, besides being our contributor and technology and social media, CEO of N 10. I was intend doing. How you doing, Amy?

[00:33:14.94] spk_5:
Um, I’ve recently been answering that question by saying that I am alive and awake in 2020 and all that that means on

[00:33:24.57] spk_1:
being in Portland, Oregon, as well,

[00:33:26.23] spk_5:
being in Portland, Oregon being at the intersection of, I think, a lot of opportunity to positively change the world

[00:33:36.84] spk_1:
Well, you three have never been on a show altogether. So I want to say

[00:33:45.34] spk_5:
I know Jean and I have definitely been on at the same time before, but I don’t think all three of us

[00:33:56.54] spk_1:
no threat. No. All three have never So. Maria, meet Jean Jean Maria. Amy, meet Amy. Meet Maria Maria, Meet Amy. Gene already knows Amy. Amy knows Jean. Oh, meet each other. Welcome. Welcome. Hey,

[00:34:03.54] spk_6:
you know, tony, I had suggested a long time ago that you should fly us all into that New York studio at some point, and so

[00:34:10.82] spk_5:
we would not have fit altogether.

[00:34:12.98] spk_6:
Since you never did that way

[00:34:16.41] spk_1:
are fly you all to the beach Now it’s much, much safer down here.

[00:34:19.80] spk_6:
Yeah, well, until this coming storm, that is. But

[00:34:37.43] spk_1:
uh huh. Yeah, Well, not this weekend. Let’s not get carried away. Like cat seven or something. We’re not doing it this weekend. No, it’s not that bad. It’s Ah, it’s like a to the one that so far it’s a one or something. Some of it’s we live, you know, that’s that’s part of our life. Living at the beach hurricane season,

[00:34:41.46] spk_2:
coming straight to your house. Tony,

[00:35:05.25] spk_1:
I got I got a metal roof. They’re gonna finish tomorrow’s good metal. Rudy’s air. Great. Two days before the hurricane, they’re gonna finish my metal roof. What color is it? It’s Ah, it’s a gray. It’s a pale grey. Very nice. It z neutral, neutral tone. Nothing. Nothing outlandish like those Clay. You know, there’s red clay colored anything but getting to cocky. How are

[00:35:05.99] spk_5:

[00:37:07.47] spk_1:
doing? San Francisco? It’s Jean. I’m pretty. Well, all things considered Azamiyah kind of reference does. Well, a lot of folks hurting. So happy to. To be in good health with the my family is well and good to see all of you and congratulations, toe. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Gene. And your practice has been very busy of late as nonprofits. Ah, non profit struggle bit. Yeah, a lot. A lot to deal with, obviously the pandemic and a lot of racial equity movements, which is a very positive sign. So, like Amy and trying to see some of the the silver linings and what changes and re imaginations may come out of this indeed. Quite a bit. I was I was talking to somebody earlier today that Ah It’s a good time for introspection. No. And that maybe on an organizational level two. And it may be that it’s Ah, not all. It’s not all voluntary, but, you know, some things have been foisted on us, so it seems like a good, introspective time, like on an individual level. And on a organizational level two seen a lot of that. Yeah, Absolutely. Um, and, uh, I think it’s really helpful for organizational leaders to sort of get together and start to think, um, sort of back to basics and say, What’s why we hear? What are we doing? Who are we serving? What are we trying to do? And how are we really walking the walk and not just talking to talk? Yeah, for sure. Right back. Back to basics mission for important for the board to focus on. I love actually adding values to that as well. So just saying we further admission that the mission, of course, that that’s important. David. Mission focus. But I think it’s now equally important to be Valdez focused. What we stand for. Yeah, Amy. You feeling that it Ah, 10. 10.

[00:38:18.12] spk_5:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think just gonna extend what Jeanne was saying. I think we see a lot of organizations, at least historically, Um, who hide behind a mission statement that doesn’t name inequity. Of course, mission statements are often like aspirational where you’re going and like, why you exist and because it’s those things aren’t named. They use that to sidestep accountability to those issues, right? Like because racism isn’t named in their mission. They don’t have to talk about racism. And maybe they get to say that they don’t perpetuate any of it. Right on Dhe. Now, this moment kind of. I think what you’re alluding to tony with, like it being foisted upon folks, is people understanding or at least demanding, that organizations don’t get to sidestep that, that there’s no way any of our social missions could be advanced if we aren’t ever talking about racism, right? Like that’s a root of why many of our issues even exist that we have a mission to address. So there needs to be less fear of that because the fear has really just got us to a very entrenched place of oppression. So can folks be willing to talk about that so that they can move forward and actually address that emissions and serve their communities and really be part of the change that our communities need.

[00:39:02.76] spk_1:
And we’ve had ah, good number of guests on lately talking about all those subjects on and more toe. There’s more to say about it. There’s more to the organizational journey to achieve racial equity and social justice. And I’m glad that we’ve been ableto have a good number of guests on, and I’m always looking for more on those kinds of subjects. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Maria Semple. What’s going on? Your practice? The Prospect Finder?

[00:39:15.16] spk_6:
Well, you know, you still have no profits who are thinking about their major gift programs, obviously. And, um, it has been a good time for some of them to kind of sit back and do some research on those donors that make you know, maybe they haven’t really focused on quite a ZX much, Um, and thinking about, you know, how is the the approach to them going to be different? And so you know, a lot of a lot of interesting things going on in the prospect research and major gift

[00:39:39.16] spk_1:
world. Very simple. Of course she’s about six miles away from me or so maybe it’s a little more. I’m not sure. Except

[00:39:46.48] spk_5:
some. I didn’t realize you to work.

[00:39:48.48] spk_1:
We’re on. We’re on the same island, different towns. But we’re on the same island. Thanks. Same barrier island in North,

[00:39:54.98] spk_6:
same Barrier Island that’s being targeted by this

[00:40:01.16] spk_1:
story. Support of life, Any of us

[00:40:02.67] spk_6:
pronounced story is, you know, but

[00:40:05.62] spk_1:
what’s the name of the name of the storm? Had Allah wishes? It’s like

[00:40:09.36] spk_2:
it’s with an I

[00:40:10.94] spk_1:
I I z o or

[00:40:12.53] spk_2:
something? Yeah, I don’t know.

[00:40:13.91] spk_6:
How does that help

[00:40:18.78] spk_2:
broker? Al Rocker said it really nicely today, but the job he gets paid, like $3 million.

[00:40:22.28] spk_5:
What the Who’s so seen?

[00:40:39.85] spk_1:
Some, uh, some interesting, Which could be, ah, good or bad, I guess. Funny, like Zoom Zoom backgrounds. You’re all we’re all talking. Yeah, we all have lots of zoom meetings. All of us. He’s got He’s got a good zoom background that you saw. Wow, like I see Scott Stein right now is curious. George,

[00:40:45.21] spk_2:
he’s got That’s the best one, and I just I just put that up on lengthen, so

[00:40:48.69] spk_3:
that’s not a background. This

[00:40:53.28] spk_1:
is not about. Well, it is now my toddler’s part of your background. It’s

[00:40:55.57] spk_5:
part of your

[00:40:55.92] spk_2:
background or your back. Oh, I think you should sell that to Zoom.

[00:40:58.91] spk_3:
I thought that curious George would just lighten the mood a little

[00:41:01.88] spk_1:
bit. Absolutely. Does

[00:41:03.44] spk_2:
my love curious George

[00:41:04.92] spk_1:
is inspired me to ask. Well, who else has seen something funny?

[00:41:09.25] spk_5:
Are you saying that the virtual backgrounds are you talking about just people having things in their background?

[00:41:13.38] spk_1:
I mean more like people in their backgrounds, in their home,

[00:41:18.14] spk_2:
their real backgrounds? Well, I’ve really enjoyed watching, like I watch the Today Show on NBC Watcher And so I really studied the backgrounds, and I like to read the titles of the books on the shelves behind the people, and that’s kind of interesting. And then sometimes, like if they have their own book that they wrote, there’s like 10 copies of it. So they have, like, four other copies, and there’s like 10 copies of their book and in a couple of more copies. So I like to look at the titles like Colbert has it, and it’s funny cause Colbert’s like in his basement and non allaying and It’s just, you know, nothing fancy. And it’s like an old desk and stuff. And so I like to look at the stuff on his on his shelf. Everybody likes, you know, history books and biographies.

[00:41:54.60] spk_3:
I was you were mentioning People’s books like You can always Tell the sign of an independent musician because somewhere in there place they have boxes and boxes of unsold CDs. Right? Right. It’s, Ah, one of my band mates referred to them as a very expensive caught coffee table.

[00:42:12.29] spk_2:
Well, that’s funny.

[00:42:13.00] spk_3:
It’s kind of what they’re doing,

[00:42:14.42] spk_2:
right. You could do Wall Art with them. Like to a whole.

[00:42:17.52] spk_3:
A tribute to me.

[00:42:29.02] spk_2:
Yeah, I my one narcissists. Come on. You got plenty of time. Don’t just got the’s. No. Now with the baby and curious George.

[00:42:33.65] spk_1:
Anybody else? I’m missing Something funny. Mark Silverman just had Mark Silverman is our web guy. He just had his, uh Well, that was That was a fake background. His driving. He’s driving background, but nothing. Nobody’s, uh I don’t think I sauce. I’ve seen good lighting. People have. I see people using light to good effect. I think people have realized that turned on light makes a much nicer back. Have

[00:42:55.26] spk_2:
light on your face to like this. There’s a lot of things for when you’re lighting an interview. You know, you put light on the person’s on the person. Stay so you’ll notice Everyone has diesel around rings, and sometimes you can see it reflected in their glasses. Yeah,

[00:43:06.93] spk_1:
that’s a problem. Light rings right. The glasses. You got it. You got to be careful with the glasses, because even just your screen will reflect into the glasses,

[00:43:13.38] spk_2:
right? Like, right now, I turn that way. Exactly. Turn that way.

[00:43:24.40] spk_1:
Yeah. Now your alien, your google eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Um uh Well, what else? I feel like I feel like it’s a cocktail party.

[00:43:28.30] spk_5:
Didn’t you say we were supposed to all answer some questions? I didn’t write down the question, Waas. I don’t like what? I didn’t think about the question, but I did make the mental note of tony Has some question we’re supposed to answer. Well, how you got into nonprofits? Yes, I like that. Like, what was your reverse non profit job? You know what I like

[00:43:45.85] spk_2:
to know? What did people do before they worked in the non profit because everyone has a different story. So what did you What was your last job before you entered the non profit space? And what was your first job in the non profit space?

[00:43:59.20] spk_5:
I only have one job, not in a 1,000,000 profit space. And that’s what I was 15 and I worked in a coffee shop. Okay.

[00:44:05.52] spk_2:
And then So your first job was your non profit job.

[00:44:08.63] spk_5:
My first job was working in the in the coffee shop?

[00:44:10.82] spk_2:
No, but I mean, your first non profit job was your current Is your current job?

[00:44:14.19] spk_5:
No, but I just always worked in a non profit sector.

[00:44:16.31] spk_1:
Right? At 16 years old, she was CEO event in its inquiry. I

[00:44:20.34] spk_2:
know. Easy. That’s

[00:44:24.10] spk_5:
cool. That’s a good idea. Jean, what do

[00:44:25.46] spk_1:
you do? Before you were a non profit attorney, you were hung fancy fans. Now I bounced a lot iced. I sold insurance. I worked in a beauty salon. No retail, but the last job I had was I was operations manager for duty free retailer in San Francisco. So we’re about a $50 million a year business in the early nineties, and I had to lay everybody off cause, uh

[00:44:48.98] spk_2:
oh, man,

[00:45:11.59] spk_1:
But Bender purse ity on. So it’s 150 people gone. I continued to work doing sort of national expansion for this huge global retailer, but, uh, it made me decide I wanted Teoh work. It’s something more meaningful. So I saw this little newspaper ad for what I believe was the first non profit graduate degree program in the country at the University of San Francisco. And so the two year program in the evening. So I jumped, shipped them, left my job, work for a tiny social service organisation. Azan office manager. And, yeah, that’s schools.

[00:45:30.32] spk_5:
That’s a

[00:45:30.56] spk_2:
great story. How about you, Maria? What did you do before you got into nonprofits?

[00:46:25.21] spk_6:
I was working for a French investment bank in Manhattan per five years out of college and, um, buying and selling and trading securities and French and, um, so very different from working in our profit space. Um, didn’t enjoy it very much. Was having dinner at my father in laws who owned a fundraising consulting firm based in Nutley, New Jersey, and complaining about my job and hating it. And, um, he said, Well, I am looking for a campaign manager for a Salvation Army capital campaign Wow in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and I raised my hand. And, like you said, who said to Jean just said, Jumping ship right, I jump ship and, um, landed in the non profit space that way and in consulting for him and then branched out on my own when I started a family and decided I could do prospect research from home. So I’ve been doing I’ve been doing this home based thing and yes, for long Talking’s yes, since, uh, since the early nineties,

[00:46:48.38] spk_2:
that’s cool. So, tony, before you worked in nonprofits, you’re in the service, weren’t you?

[00:46:59.88] spk_1:
Yeah, that was That was long before I was in the Air Force left. There is a captain, and then I went to law school and hated practicing law. And then I started my first business, which did mediocre. So I ended it and became director of plan to give him at Iona College.

[00:48:12.37] spk_2:
Everyone has a great non profit story. I worked in broadcast journalism. I worked in all news radio in Washington, D. C. I worked at CNN as a news writer worked it except satellite radio in D. C. And I covered a lot of nonprofits when I was a reporter. Because you you know, if there’s this, it’s cold and you do it. Music historian. A homeless shelter You end up at a non profit. You interviewed the director, that kind of thing. So I was like the non profit space and then later started doing like a little PR for non profits and things like that, and then eventually worked my way into the wonderful world of plan giving. We That’s how I met tony-martignetti because I read an interview that you had done, and I was needed some content for another publication. I was editing and I said, Can I take your article and turn it into a Q and A. I emailed you and your like sure, and we talked on the phone. And then if I had questions about planned giving stuff for this writing I was doing, I recall tony and he was so generous with his time and we became phone friends, and then, ah, then he wanted to do a radio show, and I’m a radio person. So 10 years ago, tony started that

[00:48:16.84] spk_5:
I can’t believe no one else spent years making espresso drinks and serving sandwiches to people like What kind of non profit group of people are waiting? The only person that did that? Well, if you

[00:48:24.52] spk_2:
go that far back I worked at Roy Rogers on Long Island and you know I said, Howdy, partner. May I help you? Thank you very much. Happy trails. I worked at Friendly’s. I was an ice cream scooper it friendlies. I was awake.

[00:48:34.37] spk_5:
Nice, nice.

[00:49:16.64] spk_1:
My only espresso experiences. Where? When I was waiting tables when in my restaurant the waiters had the create the oppressors and I always cringe when people ordered them because I could never get it right. Allow when one table order an espresso, everybody else was Wait. Everybody else was late. Their entrees. Cold salads didn’t come. I cut out the suit to get to the entree and tell him I Telemann was through the kitchens. Fault I couldn’t get a Nespresso built was never right. It was too foamy, right? Old Mr Hot. There was too much steam. There wasn’t enough steam. The coffee grounds were to compressed. They weren’t compressed enough. Wow, the curses. Espresso was a 20.

[00:49:17.49] spk_2:
Tony has nightmares about espresso. Hey, that that was an Italian restaurant.

[00:49:21.63] spk_1:
It wasn’t Italian restaurant. Yes. Had to been in the example. Ward, You did many more espressos. Like I’m sure you have it better down much better down there. She’s

[00:49:28.90] spk_2:
great at it.

[00:50:36.51] spk_5:
Yeah. I mean, looking back, it just seems so interesting. I mean, you know, I grew up in a very small town, so I guess that came with dressed. But like, you know, to 15 year olds, we were alone in the shop, running the entire shop, closing it, doing all the bank deposits, you know, like so I guess it helped instill from a very young age like responsibility, this and all of that. But it also was like we we didn’t have anyone else. They’re telling us, you know? Oh, you have to do whatever this customer says or whatever is just like, you know, to 15 year old people. And we were like, No, you don’t get that thing. That’s not fair. You just demand. Like I saw you put your gun. This person did this regularly. Take their gum, put it on the side of their play, eat their food, and then mix the gum into the rest of their salad and then come up and say there was gonna salad. I’m not paying. No. Yeah. And so we would just say Like Like, we don’t know. For adult manager telling us, the customer’s always right. No, no, that’s your gun. Back to your gun. You start getting your money back, you eat.

[00:50:54.51] spk_2:
We’re gonna swallow that gum. I’m 15 and I’m in charge. Yeah, well, that’s good. You learn assertiveness. You learn responsibility. Yeah, that’s great. That’s a That’s a great story

[00:51:00.08] spk_5:
we learned far better than tony. How to make espresso drinks. That was my first exposure to people. Like to melted cheddar cheese on top of their cold apple pie. Like, you know, I learned a lot about humanity in that

[00:51:12.53] spk_1:
herd. Yeah, I’ve heard of that one.

[00:51:14.67] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. I worked at Marie Rogers on the island man there. I learned a lot about humanity.

[00:51:21.92] spk_1:
We get into before we get to gross beef stories. Way we got to move on. Neighbor Maria, Maria, Amy and Jean. Thank you so much for what you contribute for you. I don’t want you to go stay if you can stay because Scott’s gonna perform another song, but I want to thank you. Thanks. Thanks to each of you. For all the years you’ve been contributors. Many, many years for each of you. Thank you so much for what you give to our listeners.

[00:51:47.11] spk_5:
Thanks for having a platform that’s open toe. Lots of people. Tony.

[00:51:56.98] spk_1:
Yes. I’ve seen the regulations on 500 100. It’s amazing.

[00:51:59.83] spk_6:
Amazing mission, you 10 More wonderful years.

[00:52:02.14] spk_1:
Thank you. I will do it. I’ll do it. It’s got Let’s get Scott back. He’s got ah, that’s gonna do singing Spanish blues.

[00:52:18.84] spk_3:
I am got starting. All right, here we go. Uh, this song, like the other one, has a lot of words for me to remember. So here we go.

[00:55:58.52] spk_0:
Morning with New York. Finishing way. My doctor asked for his Is it son? I think it just man. It’s somewhere in the east of Spain where Jonathan here requires a voice like church bells rang Way No way, man Stature way to my hotel. Try to rest my head with a familiar voice Reverb woman from my bed I jumped up and ran to the window. I could not believe my ears. I believe my eyes. Neither. She stood there in the clear now had no weapon type romance. This was much downstairs. And now there’s a lady in waiting way drains. Booth door process is an engineer. And when the Paschen shots last, she went back to back way missing in this gots time.

[00:56:04.70] spk_1:
Wow. Amazing. Thanks. Outstanding singing Spanish blues. Thank you. Thank you. I love Scott Stein. Thanks so much. Scott. Yes. Scott Stein music dot com. Right. Do have that right?

[00:56:11.81] spk_3:
Yes. Yeah, that’s correct. And and thanks again for having me, tony. And congratulations on 500 yeah, always always a pleasure to to do this with you. Here.

[00:57:45.03] spk_1:
Thank you, Scott. I love I love having cheap red wine is part of our show. You’re with me every every hour. Every intro, every outro, every show. Cheap red wine is with us. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. Check him out. Scott stein music dot com. So I said earlier this is gonna be our last live show. Friday 1 to 2 p.m. Eastern has been my slot at talking alternative. Now, talking radio dot N.Y.C. since July of 2010. And this is gonna be the last one. We’re We’re going to be live streamed. The show is just gonna be a well, not just gonna be the show is gonna be a podcast only from from here on. Um, and what that has meant for these 10 years is working with Sam Liebowitz Every show I’ve credited him. Sam Lever, which is our line producer. Um, and so it’s been just Ah, wonderful run with Sam. Hundreds of shows in the studio every anniversary show, which is every July, every 50 shows in the studio before this one. Um, and I’ve just been grateful for the partnership with Sam and and the network. The talking alternative network, which is again talk radio dot N.Y.C.. Sam, you’re not able to join us by audio. It doesn’t. I see you, but Ah, you can’t, um you have

[00:57:53.07] spk_7:
to keep switching. I can come on, but I have to switch back. Otherwise the rest of the audio doesn’t go out. But I don’t think I’m being recorded right now.

[00:58:04.60] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So, Sam, just Sam just spoke. Yes, we hear him, but he thinks he’s not being recorded, and we see him. So what? He said was tony has been an outstanding host, has been exemplary. He’s so handsome. I’m blushing on the

[00:58:16.77] spk_2:
ledge of color like notion on, um,

[00:58:18.88] spk_7:
and tony does remain the into the honor, having the honor of being, besides my own show the longest running show on work. Um, there was a period of time when we had several shows that have been with us for about five years. But out of all those shows, tony is the only one who has stayed consistent over all this time and to stay with this this long. Thank you so much, tony. I appreciate you know, all of the time that you’ve spent with us. I appreciate all your support and I love your mission. And I wish you the best of luck and only the best things moving forward.

[00:59:32.36] spk_1:
Thank you, Sam. I hope listeners were able to hear that we’re not. Sam said he’s not sure if if it was recorded, but, uh, I hope it was. Thank you, Sam. It’s been just Ah, lovely, wonderful fun collaboration for these 10 years? Absolutely, absolutely so. But where, Of course, the show continues. As I said on podcast every Friday, I’m gonna keep Teoh every Friday schedule. There’ll be a brand new show every Friday. Um, available to ah are 13,000 listeners a lot of this out of. Thank you. Thank you, John. So we got to wrap it up and I want a sky. I want to thank very much Scott Stein so much. Scott stein music dot com Scott, Thanks so much for being with us.

[00:59:43.45] spk_3:
Thank you for Thank you for having me.

[00:59:47.12] spk_1:
I want to give a shout out to our our web guy. Uh ah. I always I’m always crediting him on our Mark. Silverman is our Web guy. So Mark Silverman has been has been in the background for the show. I want to say hello. You’re not You do speak. I love the background on the background guy, but you know, I made if you will, tony, don’t make me stand up alive. But here I am, tony, it’s been great. I’m there every friday for you. I put the podcast up on to the website. It’s been a long and wonderful relationship. And 10 more years make it 20. I’m happy to be there for you and congratulations. Thank you, Mark. Thanks And thanks for all your help. It’s been many, many years. You’ve Well, you’ve been since the beginning. Yeah. Being doing the back end for us. Thank you so much. I wish I was on that submarine

[01:00:35.10] spk_4:
with you when you were the captain. That would have been even

[01:00:46.84] spk_1:
more fun. Submarine? I was underground, but I was close. I was I was underground, not underwater. But you were. So Yeah, I was subterranean. Claim Meyerhoff. Thank you so much. 10 years collaborating, creative producer, co hosting every single anniversary show.

[01:01:16.17] spk_2:
Thank you. It’s really, really been a joy. And, you know, normally I come up to New York and we did this great New York show in Sam Studio and Scott lugs in is you know, sometimes I meet Scott at the door and I carry in some gear for a minute. It’s always such a tree. And then afterwards we go out and we get a bagel or something in the city and Ah, but this on Zoom was really, really nice. And I’ve enjoyed it greatly. So if you needed a guest sometime, just hit me up and zoom away. We will. I’d love to. It’s been really fun,

[01:02:19.09] spk_1:
Thank you. Our 10th anniversary 500 show. Thank you so much for being with us. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for all of each of our listeners, and I’m glad that non profit radio helps you in the important work that you are doing. The feedback I get is, um, it’s touching. I know, I know. We’re helping nonprofits with their missions and their values. That’s why we do the show. Great job. Next week we’ll return to our 20 NTC coverage with more of anti sees smart speakers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com Like Coca mapped in software Denali Fund, is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant er, Mountain for a free 60 day trial and my turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo,

[01:02:32.87] spk_2:
and we’d like to thank Sam Liebowitz. He’s our line producer. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy and this delightful, fantastic, marvellous live

[01:02:45.51] spk_0:
music by the Super town, too. That’s mine on

[01:03:06.49] spk_1:
your creative producer. That’s me with me. Next week. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go up and be great. Great show. Thank you. So

Nonprofit Radio for July 10, 2020: Digital Accessibility & Inclusive Design

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My Guests:

Laura Patch: Digital Accessibility
How to make your digital products more accessible. Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text, screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. (Part of our 20NTC coverage)






Nic Steenhout: Inclusive Design
Nic Steenhout says forget upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take, the point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. (Also part of our 20NTC coverage)





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[00:01:55.54] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with lateral epic condo leitess if you strained our relationship with the idea that you missed today’s show. Digital Accessibility. How do you make your digital products more accessible? Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. This is part of our 20 NTC coverage. Also inclusive design. Nick Steen How says Forget about upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take. The point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. This is also part of our 20 NTC coverage on Tony’s Take two Dismantling racism were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non profits? Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is digital accessibility. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit technology conference. We were supposed to be in Baltimore. The conference was canceled, but we are persevering, virtually irrespective. Our coverage of 20 NTC is sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund.

[00:02:20.44] spk_0:
Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? You can go to tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial.

[00:02:32.04] spk_1:
My guess now is Laura Patch. She is digital project manager for the Sierra Club. Ah, Laura. Welcome.

[00:02:33.74] spk_2:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:35.39] spk_0:
Uh, pleasure. I’m glad this worked out. And, uh, I know you’re well and safe and glad. Glad to hear that.

[00:02:41.64] spk_2:

[00:02:54.94] spk_1:
Your ah topic is everyday accessibility. How everyone can make digital products more accessible? Why is this important for all for all

[00:02:55.93] spk_0:
nonprofits, irrespective of what proportion you think your users are. Your visitors are that with with disabilities.

[00:04:03.24] spk_2:
Um, So there is definitely a portion of the population that has permanent disabilities that we should be concerned with. They have high buying power. Um, disposable income that will on make them want to donate to your lovely non profit. And by having accessible, uh, digital products, you make sure that they can participate in your mission, but awesome. Their situational disabilities. If you think about the last time you took your cell phone out and it was great and funny and you couldn’t see your screen back, actually an acceptability issue. And if you focus on creating high contrast images like you would for somebody who has color vision problems, then you’re benefiting all the people using your website on their phone in break fun. So thinking about this situation, all ones will help your organization as well.

[00:04:04.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Thank you. I want people to understand that I’ve had NTC guests say that. I don’t know. It was a couple of years ago, since since we’ve covered accessibility, but yeah. Thank you. Um,

[00:04:30.74] spk_1:
there’s a little pause in the video. Um, So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna pause the recording. I’m gonna ask you to leave the meeting and come back in. Okay? I’m gonna pause now. All right, let’s see if

[00:04:31.92] spk_0:
this works a little better. Maybe not so much video hesitation. Um, so this is, uh you’re covering every digital product you say. Not just This is not just for websites.

[00:04:45.04] spk_2:
Correct? In my presentation, I talk about how to make your documents, your slides and a data visualisation more accessible.

[00:04:54.84] spk_0:
Okay, um, should we, uh, should we start with documents that Okay,

[00:05:23.84] spk_2:
Yeah, but, um, So one of the things that I suggest is to make sure that you use the actual heading setting whether you’re using Microsoft Word Google docks, whatever your platform is, um, this is important, because if you take text and inject, change the format of it, then screen readers can’t tell somebody that right? Whereas if you use heading one heading two heading three, a screenwriter will include that and what it reads to the person so it helps them navigate through your content.

[00:05:39.50] spk_0:
Uh, okay. I don’t think many people are doing that. I think most people just radio heading and then boldface it.

[00:05:49.94] spk_2:
Exactly. Yeah. You really want to take the time, Teoh Change it so it’s heading, and you can actually adapt style so that once you apply heading one, all of your heading ones have that style. It’s really actually easier work.

[00:06:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Right. Then you rather than you have to do it manually. Ok? Um okay. What else? What else? For documents.

[00:06:17.54] spk_2:
Um, this is one that people also frequently forget. We’re doing a better job on websites, but all images should have alternative text. Uh, that should be a no longer than two seconds is preferably even shorter than two sentences. It should describe what’s happening in the image without using words like image of photo of, um, and this again also helps with screen readers. It helps if the images loading slowly as well. So if you have poor Internet connection, you’re again on your cell phone. With no cell service, you can still tell what is conveyed in a image by the alternative text. Okay,

[00:06:49.11] spk_0:
why do you say, why do you not use the language photo of our image over something like that?

[00:06:55.94] spk_2:
Because the screen reader will tell people that it will say image, and then it’ll tell your alternative text so it’s repetitive to keep saying it. Describe what people might feed.

[00:07:10.17] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, Anything else with with images?

[00:07:12.54] spk_2:
No, not.

[00:07:14.04] spk_1:
Do you have to be concerned about color, color of our images or anything like that?

[00:07:30.34] spk_2:
If you’re gonna put text over the image than yes, you want to make sure that your image background in that text have Ah, High column, cross radio. There’s some places on the Internet You can check to make sure that that’s working well, but basically you want toe have either a light background with dark text or vice versa on. And if you can’t achieve that because a lot of things were happening in the image than doing some sort of floating background behind your text with playing around with capacity. I’m concerns that will work while too.

[00:08:05.43] spk_0:
OK, I’m sorry. What do you mean, capacity was the opacity. Opacity? Yes. Okay, I’ve seen that. All right, Opacity, SS. I’m trainable. Alright? Opacity, Of course. All right. Um, yeah. More documents, Sure. Sure.

[00:08:10.31] spk_2:
Yeah. So those are some good tips for documents? Um,

[00:08:14.85] spk_0:
was that it? Is that it for documents? Okay. Okay. Um, where should we go? Uh, uh, data visualization, right?

[00:08:24.14] spk_2:
Yeah. Expands more on that color stuff that we were just talking about. Where you go, you have high contrast colors. Um, you do have colors, like, Say, you have a graph that has five color. So it becomes really difficult to make sure that every single one of those colors have five contrasts. You want to add pattern.

[00:09:08.14] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As changes to paycheck protection program Loan forgiveness There have been many, but none this week. Congress skipped a week. Wegner hasn’t up to date free wagon. Or that explains the latest go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and recorded events. Now back to digital accessibility with Laura Patch.

[00:09:42.04] spk_2:
So I have some visuals for this in my presentation. So let me see if I can describe it Well, um, imagine that you’re looking at a map of route map of buses, right, and you have five routes and there’s purple, blue, green, yellow, red. And if those arrows for the route across each other and you can’t tell the difference between purple and blue, you can’t tell where the route goes. But if you add a pattern to the color saying one of them is a stolid line and one of them is a dotted line, then you can continue to follow the path, even if you can’t tell the difference between those two colors.

[00:09:54.94] spk_0:
Okay, okay, good, Yeah,

[00:10:16.44] spk_2:
yeah, On this works in grafs as well. If you have a pie chart, my yourself makes this really easy. But you can do it in other programs where you can add patterns to your wedges. So do a light color in the background. And then do you hired darker color of the same shade, right? So it could be like blue with blue polka dots on top of it so that they can tell that high fly slice goes to whatever your label is on the side.

[00:10:30.09] spk_0:
Okay? And if you don’t do this, what is it? The problem that all the colors are gonna look similar to someone who has accessibility issues?

[00:10:39.64] spk_2:
Yes. If you can’t see colors than they can’t tell what high slice goes toe. What data point?

[00:11:05.96] spk_0:
Ok, um, same thing with bar charts. Is there anything same would apply to bar charges? Most pie charts? Um, graphs. You talked about lines? That’s the analogy. Analogy. There is the map. Right line. Line. Line line graphs. Okay, Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:31.99] spk_2:
The thing to think about right is that accessibility guidelines say you can’t use color alone to convey a meaning. So when you’re looking at graphs, you want to make sure that somebody can tell like if they can’t tell the difference between colors, they can still understand the information you’re trying to convey. Um, so another way to think about it is like if you’re looking at pins on maps, right, they might have different colors for restaurants. First days, uh, community service places, but you can’t tell the difference between those two colors. That doesn’t really help you if you add an icon to that pin suddenly like the icon of a fork tells you. But that’s an eatery versus just the color of the pen.

[00:11:52.74] spk_1:
Ah, I see. And then how will a reader interpret that?

[00:11:58.04] spk_2:
That’s an excellent question, usually aboard, to make sure that there is data labels as well. So label that as restaurant versus just the information.

[00:12:23.86] spk_0:
Okay, okay, I could see a mean a map. I’m just tryingto understand how a screen reader interprets, um, a map like that Local A. T M’s or gas stations. It can do

[00:12:59.08] spk_2:
that. Uh, maps. There were some of the most difficult things to make Fully accessible, said. There’s basically and if especially for a non developer person, it’s very difficult because there’s things you can put into the code of amount toe, give things, labels. Um, so most of the time If you’re thinking about accessibility from a non developer standpoint, you’re gonna be thinking about the visual ramifications. So those I Hans in your, um, in your pens, I always having a list of the information instead of just the map. Visual is really helpful to because the screen reader can read the list as opposed to the not itself.

[00:13:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, that makes sense. I was wondering if you’ve, uh, well, yeah, it wouldn’t make sense for the for people who don’t have a disability toe leave out a map and just do a list. But actually, so have both. Okay, the screen reader could make sense of the list. OK, OK. OK, um, anything else about data visualization?

[00:13:32.54] spk_2:
No, I think those are the key points for developers.

[00:13:38.74] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um what else? Uh, what what

[00:13:40.99] spk_1:
was the other category? You had

[00:13:42.84] spk_2:
a slides.

[00:13:44.44] spk_0:
Oh, for slides. Okay, Power point or Google slides. Okay.

[00:14:42.64] spk_2:
Um, so the same thing. Kind of occurrence for slides as it does for images and documents. You want to make sure you have that alternative text. Um, but the thing that’s unique about slides is that you want to make sure you’re paying attention to the order items are on. Um, if somebody can’t use a mouse, we’ll use the tab button on their keyboard. Um, and the order that your items on your slide are is the order that this screen reader will also like, read your side through. Right. So an easy way to test how a screen reader is gonna read your content to someone is to use that tab button and navigate as if you don’t have a mouse. Um, So, for example, if you want your slide title to be read first, you want to make sure that the first tab is that and I’ve seen a lot of slides where it will be the image, footer, slide content and then title. And you’re like, Well, this would make no sense it was going to be in that order. How

[00:15:00.60] spk_1:
do you change

[00:15:07.13] spk_0:
it? Is that the sequence with which you put them on the on the template slide as you’re making it? Have you control with the tab sequences?

[00:15:11.46] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s the default way. Feel like as you add things, that will be the order, but you can right click on any item on your slide and send it to the back. Send it to the front. Defended forward. Backwards. So you just want to play around with that until it’s the right order that you want.

[00:15:29.93] spk_1:
Oh, that’s what that

[00:15:30.75] spk_0:
thing means. Send forwards finback. Okay, okay.

[00:15:45.74] spk_2:
That can get a little tricky for designers, because it’ll be like putting Bill block certain things with another square or some things that you do have to pay attention. Tilly, if you’re destroying what is visually you showing as well. But for the most part, you want to make sure that cat order makes us

[00:16:09.44] spk_0:
okay. Okay? And and that applies, um, for either Google slides or Power Point. You just right. Click on some right click on an item, and that’s how you can set the sequence. Okay. Okay. Um, anything else slides? Slides wise.

[00:16:13.49] spk_2:
No, that’s right. For slides.

[00:16:24.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, should we should we say anything more about color choices overall? Well, we’re

[00:16:26.43] spk_2:
okay. There’s Cem programs that you can check your contrast levels, um, as well as develop a color palette that it’s accessible. Um, so if your organization hasn’t done much in accessibility, you might want to talk to your design team just toe. Tweak some of those colors to make sure that their high contrast I see our club actually just recently changed our color palette to make it more accessible so that we can use more color combinations,

[00:17:06.28] spk_0:
Can you, ah, name any of those resources that are available to check color contrast, and you can send us to,

[00:17:59.58] spk_2:
uh, mine. My favorite is color palette Accessibility Checker. It allows you to put your full color palette into their system and then check each color against all of the colors in your palette for that accessibility purpose. Um, if you’re Jeff checking two colors for contrast purposes. Web aim color contrast Checker is a really good one on both of those. Tell you a and double A levels. So the Web accessibility has level A. Which is the least, uh, the minimum that you need to dio Double A, which is what most organizations looking for and tripled a triple. It is very difficult to do when you kind of have toe constantly, maintain it toe, reach it. So if you’re thinking about all the lawsuits that are coming out about accessibility, they’re mostly talking about double standards.

[00:18:07.43] spk_0:
What are some of those lawsuits around our visual products.

[00:18:52.84] spk_2:
Yeah, the big one that came out in within the last year is the dominoes case. Um, somebody was trying to order pizza online, I think, actually through their up on and was unable to do so. So they sued dominoes for acceptability. Um, and won the case. Oh, okay. Do you want one of the things that we’re still trying to get figured out is the 88 definitely applies to digital products. Over those bases are considered public domain, like public public domain, but like the public space similar to if you walk into the restaurant. Um, but the congress hasn’t actually passed anything that’s told us what those guidelines are. So most people are using the web accessibility, Web content, accessibility guidelines as what be our gaming for, But it’s not legally state that yet.

[00:19:11.94] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. But it is a benchmark for for now, until the courts Yeah, decide on a standard. Okay. Um what else? What else should we be talking about?

[00:19:34.94] spk_2:
Um uh oh. I have one more resource that might be helpful, but for people. But it’s called the color blindness simulator. Um, and it allows you to upload an image and then check different ways of color blindness. Though it’ll stimulate a red color blindness, the blue color blindness. So you can see what that image looks like if somebody can’t feel the images.

[00:19:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. And what is that again? Color

[00:19:53.81] spk_2:
color blindness in later

[00:19:57.54] spk_0:
simulator. Okay. Okay. Um, those are excellent. You ticked off like dozens of I don’t know to Doesn’t things or something. Excellent. Um, you leave it there. Does that sound like

[00:20:06.74] spk_2:

[00:20:07.39] spk_0:
good coverage? Okay. Cool. Uh, thank you very much. Laura Patch. She is digital product manager at the Sierra Club. Laura, Thank you very much.

[00:20:16.87] spk_2:
Thank you.

[00:20:22.24] spk_0:
And thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of the the virtual 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software.

[00:21:47.29] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountains software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you were That has features you need and exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take two. You’re dismantling racism journey. That’s our newest special episode, and it’s out. You will have a long journey. So start with this single step. My guest is pretty itchy. Shaw. She’s president and CEO of Flourished Talent Management Solutions. Starting where you are with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you gather data about racist structures that are right under your nose? Who do you invite to the conversation? She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on. She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on YouTube If you want to wait for the video, that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for inclusive design with Nick Steen. How welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:21:58.79] spk_0:
profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference were sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. With Me Now is next in how he’s an independent accessibility consultant. Nick. Welcome.

[00:22:06.64] spk_3:
Hey, tony. Thanks for having me. Really nice to chat with you.

[00:22:10.24] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m very glad we could work this out virtually. And, uh and it’s good to know that you’re well and safe outside Vancouver, British Columbia.

[00:22:20.40] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s difficult times, but we’re staying safe yet.

[00:22:32.10] spk_0:
Alright, Alright, um, your NTC topic is forget accessibility. Think inclusive design s O. What is it about accessibility that you want us to? Who forget?

[00:24:41.84] spk_3:
I think that when we’re focusing on Leon excess stability, we’re forgetting that accessibility is good for everyone. No, As as an individual with a disability myself, I will never forget that implementing where backs disability is above and beyond for people with disabilities to be able to use the web. But if we’re thinking Onley in those terms, we tend to forget that, uh, making sure color contrasts are good. You know, you’re not using great text on great background. That’s good for people with low vision. But it’s also good for you when you’re using your mobile device and full sun when you’re talking about making sure the the target area for ah click is big enough for someone who has cerebral policy and doesn’t have fine motor control to click on that little check box. It’s also good for someone that has big fingers and trying to fill a form on the bus or public transit. Uh, when we’re talking about plain language, we’re also talking about? Well, maybe maybe someone has a functional in permit. Maybe it’s a young mom with a very young baby that has colic. So she’s trying to juggle a sick baby in one hand and read up information on her mobile phone on the other. And the cognitive load is very, very impacted. So there’s all these things that are really important for people with disabilities, but that I also happen to benefit everybody a little bit like in the physical world. We started implementing curb cuts that was good for wheelchair users. Sauce good for parents pushed airs for their kids, for delivery people with it appears on unstable. You, um, you may have to edit me and post.

[00:25:08.14] spk_0:
Yeah, let’s keep going. Ah, lot of times the, uh, the the way it appears is not. The word is not what’s getting recorded. I’ve had that happen a couple times, so we’ll just Kentucky as long as we can still hear each other. Yeah, um, and if the video becomes unusable, then we’ll just do the audio. Yeah. Also cuts also help those of us who are pulling luggage. Yep.

[00:25:28.39] spk_3:
So it’s it’s really a question of universal access. And when we’re start thinking about what we’re doing, we really should talk about inclusive design. It’s it’s going from, um it’s going from situation that are equal, but different to situation where everyone can benefit.

[00:25:35.96] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. What is your own disability?

[00:25:41.02] spk_3:
I’m a wheelchair user.

[00:25:49.59] spk_1:
Okay. Does that impact screen use? No, it

[00:27:10.24] spk_3:
doesn’t. Not for me. Um, but I’ve had a situation where I was, Um, a few years ago, I managed to broke a wrist because I slid on ice in my I can’t out of the sidewalk felon in the street broke arrest. So I had a problem moving around, obviously. And about a week later, I broke the other risk in a car accident. So I was severely impaired from being able to use the keyboard. Normally, type about 80 words minute. And when that happened, I was starting to fingers and it was very, very awkward. Eso having been a an accessibility expert for a large number of years, I was also faced with having to to learn things I knew were there on you. The tools, for example, Dragon, naturally speaking, to be able to to speak to the computer for, for interacting and you all that I had used all that in testing. But the point was really brought home about no. As a wheelchair user, I realized the barriers in the physical world. But as, um, as a suddenly web disabled user, I had to relearn all these things again.

[00:27:53.64] spk_0:
Yeah, I see how deeply personal this is for you. Um, I’ve had guests on talking about accessibility. I know we’re supposed to You wanna think inclusive design? But those guests were framing it as accessibility on and, uh, I’ve never heard anyone mention the size of a radio button the size of anything that you need to click on as being difficult to land on for someone with cerebral palsy Or, I guess, other neuro muscular disabilities as well. Yeah. Um,

[00:29:18.64] spk_3:
yeah, it In general, we tend to to know about accessibility for screen reader users because it’s been the most obvious. The biggest barrier is for people that are have vision impairments and then rely on SSF technology like screen reader users. But the fact is, there’s a whole range of disabilities that effect using the Web. There’s obviously people with no vision or low vision There’s people with hearing impairments that, for example, if there’s no transcript for your show, they’re not gonna be able to interact with the shore or get material out of the show. But aside a side issue to someone who is born deaf and grows up deaf. Where American Sign language is their first language. The grandma, the structure of the language, is so completely different from English. So when they’re interacting with content, a lot of these native SL users English is their second language. And then if we don’t try to in plain English, it makes content difficult to digest. There’s just all kinds of little things that if it’s not something we’re used to, or we don’t stop to think about it, there’s impact all over the place.

[00:29:43.54] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Yeah. Um, let’s see. So, um, how should we? How shall we continue? Um, and there are other. Are there other design concepts I ideas that you want to share, just like your listing them and explaining them? Or should we approach this some other way?

[00:29:46.94] spk_2:

[00:31:33.78] spk_3:
sure. If we’re gonna use video, let me share. You’re one of the a couple of the slides. I have in my, uh, in my deck for the presentation, which might actually bring something to to the viewers. Um, we’re tired, King a lot about, um, equality making the Web equal for everyone. And in this slide, I have an image of, uh, three kids, very short kid, the middle height kid in a tall kid looking at a ball game over a fence, and they’re all on, uh, all on the box. That allows them to be a little bit higher, but the box is the same height for everyone’s. The very tall kid gets to see very well above defense. But the very short kids still can’t see above it if we contrast that to equity, which is a concept that we’re talking a lot about Is that well, they’re very talk. It does not need any boxes to see over defense. The kid that’s no halfway between the two can use one box and he can see over the box and then a very short kid. If you stack two of those boxes suddenly he can see over defense. So we’re talking of an equitable situation, and that’s one of the concept that I want people to realize is we have to stop thinking about access abilities in terms of equality, but we really should start thinking about it in terms of equity. But if we push further, um

[00:31:52.69] spk_0:
and thank you, Nick, for explaining what’s on the slides because, ah, lot of people won’t be seeing the video. It’s an audio podcast. And then if our video is good, I’ll put that on the YouTube channel. But most people are just getting audio through the podcast. So you’re thank you for sounding like a screen reader as you describe what’s in the

[00:33:54.14] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned that it’s something I’ve gotten used to do, and I do. Presentations is that I rarely put visuals up on the slide that I won’t take time to explain because I don’t know who in my audience has vision issues. I don’t know who may not be able to process an image. They’re better at processing the odor words then then what they’re seeing. So I always try Teoh to make sure that I describe what’s going on because it just it just makes on. Um, the other thing is that, um, when we’re thinking about this relationship between equality and equity. We could also start thinking about barrier free, which is the step beyond that, which is really thinking inclusively if in our thinking process, we think about whichever thing we design. And that includes offense, where we have to go through the process of what would be an equal experience, what would be an equitable experience? How about we do offense that everybody can see through without needing boxes to get up? So in this image, I have the same three kids an offence. But instead of being a psyllid plank fence, it’s actually a wire friends that everybody can see through. So I really want people to shift thinking from this idea of us versus them, people with disabilities and people without disabilities, disabled people versus abled people. I want to get people started to think about. We’re all in this together, and we have to build barrier free, um, environments, whether it’s in the built environment or on the Web. So it’s really important to to start that shift in thinking

[00:35:32.74] spk_0:
okay on, and it’s sort of, um, um, I don’t know if revolutionary is too strong a term, but you’re you definitely want to shift that you run a shift, at least if not if not revolutionary, it’s ah, It’s a substantial movement from where people are thinking now, Um, my sense of it is ah, lot of Web and I and I guess we shouldn’t even limited to websites. But because all digital products, right, Whether it’s ah, yeah, we’re a word document using headings, using the headings, um, format versus you, writing the text and then highlighting it Which reader isn’t gonna recognize? So it’s all it’s all digital products, not we’re not only talking about websites. Um, my sense is that most of the thinking is that you create something and then maybe you go back and try to adapt it, which would be, you know, uh, adding, adding the same, that would be your will be the first picture that you just showed, which would be changing it. What changing the way it appears for everybody or the ways design you have the way it appears for everybody. After I’ve already done my design and creation. Then I go back and yeah, and ad code for ah screen reader. Let’s say all right. My sense is that that’s the more prevalent on yeah, more prevalent methods methods.

[00:38:24.82] spk_3:
That is what’s happening mostly out there. We really want to shift the thinking in terms of thinking about accessibility from the get go. Obviously, in our my my talking about accessibility, I never forget. The primary goal of this is making things work for people with disabilities because we have such a need to access information, quicks example. So much of the information now is Onley available online because of the coronavirus. But so many of the size that provide that information is not available because they’re not accessible. So we have. We have a failure of the system for people with disabilities accessing information, which is critical and even, maybe vital. So we want to think about accessibility from the very early phases off the first design, where this wire frame or even just concepts, one of the complaint. A lot of the people I interact with and have done for over 25 years that have been involved in this wonderful world is that people say, Hey, Nick, accessibility. Yeah, I get it, but it’s so expensive, and then I start telling them about and experience from my own life uh, I know someone who built house, and they just had two steps under the entrance and the door was fairly narrow, you know, it was 28 inch door or something like that. 30 inch? Not sure. And then they became a wheelchair user and they had to retrofit the house. They had to actually remove the front door. They had to remove bricks around the front door to make a bigger opening. They had to put a ramp in. And of course, that was very expensive. But had they actually build house that was accessible in the first place? Had they put in a door that was wider and had no step entrance? That added cost at the time of building would have been maybe three, maybe 5% mawr, instead of costing tens of thousands of dollars to To fix digital accessibility is the same thing. If you build it accessibly in the first place, it won’t cost you any more because in theory your designers, your developers, your quality and assurance testers everybody in that chain and that workflow should be having the skills and the knowledge to build it accessibly. Now the reality is and doesn’t always happen, but, um, it’s good. So exists. Ability does not have to be expensive and can be baked in from the start. A little bit like blueberry muffins. Have you ever tried to bake blueberry muffins and put the blueberries after the muffins are cooked? It’s not gonna work.

[00:39:23.22] spk_0:
Have not have not tried that. Now, Um, the only reference I could think about in, uh, popular culture blueberry muffins made That makes me think of the movie. Ah, casino. Where the The head of the casino, Um uh, tells the baker that he wants, um, the same number of blueberries in every muffin because he just cut open a muffin that had very few. And his breakfast companion had ah dozen in his And, uh, so and that. But that’s not what you’re talking about. Sorry. That’s a silly digression. I like movies. Um, and casino is a very good one.

[00:39:55.02] spk_1:
Time for our last break turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know that turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard. So people know you’re a thought leader in your field, and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for inclusive design from 20 NTC.

[00:40:00.61] spk_0:
Any other idea what other ideas do you want to share around inclusive design?

[00:43:23.50] spk_3:
For me, one of the other important concept to think about his accessibility is not a checklist. We’re using standards and guidelines. For example. The standard right now for checking it for site is accessible. Not is the Web content accessibility guidelines Version 2.1. That’s the most recent version of the guidelines. And if we’re going through that, we end up using a checklist. Our ultimate images have alternate attribute. Can we get through to all the elements on the Web page using the keyboard? Only is there enough contrast between text and background? And there’s There’s a long list. There’s like nearly 80 success criteria, and each of them have specific testing checkpoints to to look at. But if we think Onley in terms of conforming to the standard, we’re falling back into this trap of looking at putting the blueberries back in the muffin after the muffins have been baked. We’re looking at basically the minimal amount of work we need to do to get away with with it to not be sued, for example, whereas I really want people Teoh thinking in terms of, we want our website to be usable by as many people as possible with as little difficulty as possible. So we should think about getting away from accessibility In terms of checklist. The checklist is useful as a way of getting a pulse of the health of our website, but we have to look at everything else as well. And if we’ve thought about Texas ability from the very early stages of the project, then at that point that should be fairly easy. The checklist is just there as a safeguard, but we’re looking also at the best practices. For example, a ramp you’re looking at a ramp in the built environment. The Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines called for ramp to have no more than one in 12 radiant. That means the ramp doesn’t go longer than a shorter than 12 foot. For every foot of height it goes up, and that’s a minimum. Most people would, uh, mobility impairments should be able to do that. But what about putting a ramp that is with a gentle slope where it’s one and 15? Maybe it’s not gonna hurt anything. You’re just adding a couple feet to your ramp. Nine times out of 10. You don’t have a space limitation to do that. And suddenly you’ve made it easier for everyone. So thinking. In terms of digital accessibility, we can think about similar issues. For example, color contrast. The guidelines says you have to have a contrast of 4.5 to 1 to be sufficient for people with low vision. How about you? Do you use something like sticks to one? You increase the contrast a little bit, use better colors. Maybe you use a folded font appropriately. And at that point, you’ve you’ve gone beyond checklist and you’ve made the site more usable or usable for everyone.

[00:43:50.10] spk_0:
Yeah, all right. Beyond the standard of beyond the beyond the minimum standard. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:51.16] spk_1:
You make a distinction

[00:43:55.07] spk_0:
between disability and impairment. Could you flush that out, please?

[00:45:05.09] spk_3:
Yeah. I’m coming at it from having worked in the independent living movement for for a number of years, where one of the basic concept is my disability is not the fact that I use a wheelchair. My disability is the fact that you have 15 steps to get into your building. My disability is not that I’m blind, but that you’re not offering alternative format for your menu. Uh, so we’re talking about the difference between a condition and a disability. The impairment is I’m wheelchair user joys blind, Julius deaf. Those are the impairments, the condition. The disability comes into effect when society builds environments that have barriers. So in effect, the disability has not come from within. The disability comes from without. If you build something that has barriers, you disabled me. And that, I think, is a very important distinction to make.

[00:45:34.77] spk_0:
Yeah, very good. Yeah. I could see how this is. Like I said, deeply personal for you. Um, and you think you’ve been thinking about these things for decades? These these concepts, um, and the disabilities that the culture of the society has has built the disabilities that society has built. Um, how do you want to Ah, you want to wrap up, please.

[00:46:44.41] spk_3:
I’d like to leave people with one message about accessibility. It’s a continuum. it’s not a bill. I’ll or in all you know, it’s not because you feel you can’t make everything accessible that you shouldn’t even try. The more you do it to, more accessible things are gonna be and start now, just starting now, make little changes. Your you know your webs that doesn’t use headings. See if you can implement headings. Look at the little things you can do the low hanging fruits, because the more you put in, the easier is gonna be for more people to use your your site or your documents. Whether it’s pdf word whichever Web based resource is, start now and do as much as you can without necessarily worrying about being an expert. That’s done this for 20 years. Um, talk to people about excess abilities, see what they suggest and try to implement in your in your workflow in your website whether you know you’re the executive director of non profit that never really thought about it and start thinking about it. Start the discussion.

[00:46:58.82] spk_0:
Thank you. Next in help Independent accessibility. Consultant. Thank you very much for sharing neck.

[00:47:04.38] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. It’s been a pleasure.

[00:47:06.61] spk_0:
My pleasure. Please stay safe outside Vancouver and thank you very much for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? Thanks a lot for being with us

[00:47:58.98] spk_1:
next week. More from 20 anti sees Smart speakers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO

[00:48:29.56] spk_0:
creative producer is Fair Meyer Family Sure profit other 95% go out

[00:48:48.37] spk_7:
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[00:00:11.54] spk_0:
Okay. Hello. Welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:02:30.78] spk_1:
profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. I’ll have something to say about George Floyd and racial equity in Tony’s Take Two. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of Ballon O prostatitis if you pissed me off with the idea that you missed today’s show. Don’t get played by the product demo. We’ve all watched in awe as the cursor flies across the screens of a demonstration. Nine months later, we’re scratching our heads. They made it look so easy back then. Get insider tips from Ruben Sing, who’s led hundreds of sales demos. He’s CEO of 1/10 Consulting. This is part of our 20 and TC coverage and Facebook fundraising data. This 20 and D C panel feels your frustration over Facebook not sharing donor data, but they also admonish that you can’t ignore the value of Facebook fundraising. They bust myths, help you overcome the challenges, reveal had a thank and engage your fundraisers and steer clear of pitfalls. There. Nick Byrne from Give Panel and consultants Julia Campbell and Maureen will be off tony Stick to be The change were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo Here is don’t get played by the product Demo. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 and TC. That’s the 2020 non profit Technology Conference sponsored A 20 D. C by a Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guest now is Ruben Singh. He is CEO of 1/10 Consulting Ruben. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Thanks

[00:02:38.40] spk_2:
so much, tony. Glad to be here.

[00:02:48.54] spk_1:
Pleasure on pleasure. I’m glad that we could work this out virtually. And I know that you are well and safe outside Baltimore in Maryland goods, your topic is don’t get played by the product. Demo, Exclamation mark! If you’re shouting this from a mountaintop, don’t get played by the product. Demo. You’re an insider you’ve done How many? Hundreds of product demos?

[00:03:02.44] spk_2:
Yeah, definitely in in the hundred’s. But the thing is, I’ve been on all sides of it. I have, ah, delivered demos. I have been on the the the customer side or the prospects of receiving demos, and I’ve also coordinated them on behalf of my customers. So I felt like I had a lot of good experience and perhaps some insider tips and tricks toe offer.

[00:03:22.57] spk_1:
Okay, there is There is some deception in these in these demonstrations.

[00:03:40.46] spk_2:
Well, you know, I wouldn’t quite say deception. It’s a spectrum, Really, Uh, some things I have some practices I’ve seen over the years have ranged from you, maybe a little questionable to mislead it, and then some of it has been deceptive. But, you know, honestly, tony Yeah, it’s a little tongue in cheek. I I don’t want to imply, especially the non profit sector, that these that these sales reps are being dishonest in any way. I think most of them have great intentions. But what I really think that there’s a handful of tips and tricks and practices that folks can use to really make sure they’re getting the most out of their demos.

[00:05:07.37] spk_1:
Okay, My my recollection of these as a consult. So I do plan giving consulting. And I’ve gotten some demonstrations for profit from products as a as a as an observer for on the client behalf. Um, and then together we make a decision, but my memory of them is that the cursor is flying around the screen. It started non stop. And then at the very end of a 30 minute demonstration, Do you have any questions? Well, I probably had questions from screen number two about 90 seconds into the thing, but I’m flummoxed now. I’m overwhelmed by the by the movement by by the screens flying around. I can’t remember my question. I I think I had one, but I’m not positive of that. I need to I need a I need a drink. I need to calm down, because the thing just went so damn fast, you know? Um, all right, so that’s that’s probably on the negative end of the spectrum again. Not suggesting deception, but it just goes so fast, you know? Shoot. All right, So where should we start? I mean, you have tips for preparing before the demonstration starts. Yeah,

[00:05:12.64] spk_2:
Well, what you just described is a very common situation. And I would say where the biggest gap is I’ve seen where customers have come back to me and said, You know what? Everything looks so seamless and looks so, uh, you know, so nice and shiny and so quick and easy in the demo. But that’s not the product we ended up with. The biggest reason for that is, in my opinion at least, is how you come into that demo. How prepared you are. If you simply just walk in, let the sales rep do their thing and just, you know, as you and just wait to be wowed and impressed. You’re very likely going to end up disappointed so that one of the first points that I really bring up in, uh, my talk was to present some use cases to really think to yourself, what are the four or five things that we must have on Day one when our new system is live, as well as one of those four or five things that are working terrible right now in our current system, those are the areas we want to focus on, Let’s draft up our use cases. Let’s get very specific examples, not yes or no questions and provide that to the sales rep account executive ahead of time. That way, you’re not really focusing on the fluff. You’re not focusing on the bells and whistles. You can watch that stuff on YouTube. You’re really focusing on those areas that are going to be critical for you to be successful.

[00:06:24.34] spk_1:
Okay, Anything else we should be thinking about as a team before we before we view this extravaganza?

[00:06:30.66] spk_2:
Yeah, definitely the prep that you do up front. You know, I kind of alluded to this that you doing your homework? A lot of these products that you see out there, especially in a non profit technology side. There’s demos available. There’s demos available on their websites. You know, maybe you need to download a white paper. There’s demos available on YouTube. Eso, you know, watch those demos do your homework. Don’t just wait to the demo. You know the facilitated demo before you see it for the first time. That way, you can really understand what the potential pain points are again. Also, there’s many different organizations out there that do independent studies on the various donor management C r M systems eso. So that might be a place as well as other other applications. So do your homework. Understand where the weaknesses are already a prom. That way you can focus on their those areas in the demo. So the team or the pattern I really focus on here is move away from the demo just being a presentation and really try to make it a working session with your sales rep. Eso you’re really working through this scenarios and not just sitting back and watching can presentation.

[00:07:29.58] spk_1:
Okay, Yeah, you’re focusing them on on where your pain points are, what your must haves are and not just getting a generic description of, you know, a lot of times, you know, if you if you end up meeting this, then we have this component and and we have this feature to you might not end up needing it, but I just want to acquaint you with it. You know, that that’s really irrelevant.

[00:07:52.71] spk_2:
That’s right. And so those were some things that you could ahead of time, you know, even during the demonstration itself, there’s certain things that you want to look out for, You know, again, the yes, no questions. Do you have all into your management? Do you have events management? Do you have playing? Giving the answer is always gonna be yes to a Yes. No question. We had a If you can always repurpose, you know, certain functionality to make it fit A particular scenario. So I try to encourage your my profit, remind my customers that’s gonna move away from that and really give a specific example. Hey, you know, I do a lot of events and I sit at the desk during our gala and I need to register people when they come in the door and also have the ability with the check and check out process to enter a new attendee. Show me how I can do that and that that could be one of the use cases that you present ahead of time. So again it gives it gives very specific things. Another thing that I suggest is is be careful about those words of integration and compatibility. Um, because everyone is integrated, you know, especially I deal a lot with Salesforce and everyone claims to be integrated with Salesforce but that integration it could mean anything. It could be a plug and play out that takes 10 minutes. Or it could be, Ah, it could be a separate third party solution that you need with 1/3 party consultant to integrate it. So all that falls within the category of integration. So you want to be very clear when someone says, Oh, yeah, we’re compatible with such and such or were integrated with such and such. What exactly does that mean? And how does it look?

[00:09:57.04] spk_1:
Okay, that’s interesting. Yeah, I don’t think most people know that. They just they say, Oh, it’s integrated. Okay, that’s awesome. It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As Things are moving fast. The Senate passed a bill on paycheck protection program loans that extends the covered period from eight weeks to 24 weeks. You need a place to keep up with everything that we’re being hit with. Financially wegner-C.P.As dot com Quick resource is and blawg now back to don’t get played by the product demo. I should have given you a chance to shout out what? What’s the work at 1/10 Consulting.

[00:10:27.99] spk_2:
Oh, well, we, uh we do everything from strategy we work exclusively with nonprofits. We do strategy, work. We do implementation of C R M. Systems all the way through change management and user adoption. So we take a slightly different approach in the sense that we, uh it’s not really just the technology that we focus on. We really try to make sure that the people, the process, the strategy, the data, everything is aligned. Because if one of those pieces were missing, you’re not you’re not gonna be happy. So as a consulting practice, we try to make sure all those are aligned to help help move missions

[00:10:35.81] spk_1:
forward. What’s the significance of the name 1/10 Consulting. What is that? Does that mean?

[00:10:55.56] spk_2:
Yeah. You know, in the six faith, there’s a, ah principle or a concept of thus fund we call it, which is giving 10% of your your income, your time to the community into the greater good. Um, and in my early years of starting this practice, I worked with a lot of faith based communities. Um, and as I was implementing donor management systems for churches and synagogues and masa, I started noticing that this concept of 10% or 1/10 of your income. Er, and giving back was was such a central component of every one of these faiths and every one of these faith traditions. Eso to me, it was it was nice. It was this unifying principle. And and so that’s kind of where 1/10 comes from that the 1/10 really represents this this treasure. And, you know, I’m hoping 1/10 consulting helps helps that 10% really realize its full

[00:11:36.74] spk_1:
potential. So before you recognize this commonality, what were you, Reuben sing Consulting? What were you before you were 1/10

[00:11:43.75] spk_2:
before 1/10 I have worked for, um I worked at a non profit sector, but also in CR ems for over 20 years. So prior to 1/10 I was with an organization called Round Corner. In their non profit technology sector. I was vice president of digital transformation, and, um, and they actually have been acquired by Salesforce. But that was the time I realized that I don’t want to be tied into one particular product and really want to be able to look at things more holistically that way. Started.

[00:12:14.94] spk_1:
Um, let’s go back to ah to advice you um, you know, part of what you ah talk about is tough questions to ask way at that stage, or is there more you want to say leading up to it? But you you, uh you take it where where we need to go,

[00:13:44.97] spk_2:
right? Right. Yeah, I think you know, as far as the tough questions that we covered, some of them the integration, the interoperability. Okay, I think another thing we talked about with terms, not just the yes, no questions. Also, when it comes to things like, Do you handle soft credits? Do you handle plan giving? Do you handle solicitors again? The questions the answers will always be Yes. And although, you know, matching gifts, workplace gifts, these these air something that all non profits due in some way, shape or form. But you want to make sure that your impression and your understanding of it is the same as the sales reps because I’ve noticed a lot of gaps in that area as well. Another couple tougher questions that I always like to get into is asking this question of what exactly is has been upgraded in this demo. So I’ve just seen it Time and time again, tony. Where, uh, you know, again, you’ve seen this great demo. And then when you come back and say, Well, these air, like, archaic looking Web forms can’t show these to my donors, and then they come back and say, Oh, yeah, you just need to upgrade to the next forms package or, oh, if you’re going to send more than three emails, you have to say you have to upgrade to the next email package. So the demo has been filled with all these add ons and upgrades, but you’re kind of getting something different, you know?

[00:13:47.33] spk_1:
And so you bought that you bought the base model, but you test drove the, uh, the SLX expanded, uh, 16 cylinder version.

[00:14:01.74] spk_2:
Exactly. And I often, for example, a few years back I was, uh, family. We were purchasing home, and we wanted a new home, and we were looking all these model houses, and I know some people really like to see these beautifully furnished homes with great interior decorating. And I was just like, Can I just see an empty house? You know, I want to know what I’m getting. I get thrown off, I get distracted by all this. You know, Do you have some sort of, you know, house that’s being built, That that’s the same model that I could look at. And so I kind of looked at demos the same way. Do as little as possible, you know, and And don’t customise too much. Don’t add on anything. I want to see how close my use cases worked with your out of the box product that way. Ah, comparing apples down.

[00:14:39.06] spk_1:
Okay, Okay. So you can actually ask them to demo a specific version that you’d be most likely to be buying without whatever add ons, plug ins, upgrades, et cetera.

[00:14:51.31] spk_2:
Yeah, and it really should be easier for the sales rep to to prepare for that on and really have them. You’re focusing less on customizing and focus more on the use cases that you provided them. Okay. And I will tell you, you know, this not all sales reps or account executives will be receptive to this. And some of them might say, Oh, this is too much work. Or where they might look at your use cases and say we’re clearly not a fit, which is not a bad thing either. At least you know upfront. Yeah. The sales reps that I think are really good. And some of the ones I’ve worked with they would love something like this. They would love the client toe, give them a list of use cases. Give him some very specifics That way, they’re not guessing either. Ah, and the session is going to be a lot more fruitful when both sides

[00:15:34.44] spk_1:
are prepared. OK, OK, Reuben Weaken, spend some more time together. If you have more suggestions,

[00:16:04.52] spk_2:
you know, I’d say that there’s there’s probably one other suggestion that I would, uh I alluded to this at the very beginning on I think it kind of sums up. The whole point is when I talked Teoh sales reps and want to prepare them for a demo, I even tell them up front. You know, we’re not really interested in the demo. We’d like to have a working session and just even using that term, it changes the paradigm, and it really changes the relationship. They’re between yourself and the vendor. Eso even just something as simple as recommending that we’re calling it something different. The sales right will come in a little bit more prepared to work with you and really try to work through those use cases. Eso the more you can move away from the canned, you know, bells and whistles, presentation and Maurin toe a meaningful conversation on your use cases, the more happier you’re going to be with the end product,

[00:16:38.54] spk_1:
okay? And I guess if you get any if you get any pushback or objection from the from the sales rep about converting this from a demo to a work session, that’s a red flag about whether whether you want to purchase their ah, against purchasing their their product and continuing with the conversation with them.

[00:16:47.75] spk_2:
Absolutely. I mean, you know, we’re talking about on profits here, and, you know, obviously funds are always limited, and you want to make sure that you’re making smart decisions on where that money goes. So, like I said, a nonprofit sector, that’s the sales reps I’ve worked with their usually very much in line with this thinking. Um, so so but yeah, if there was any objection, that’s definitely red flag. In my opinion,

[00:17:10.04] spk_1:
you have ah, you have a resource at the on the 1/10 consulting site

[00:17:17.24] spk_2:
Yeah, yeah, you know, and we’re really bummed about that. The conference, the NTC conference being canceled. So what we did is we went ahead and I recorded the session that I had planned to deliver at the NTC conference, Um and ah ah. And have uploaded that recording to our website www 0.1 temp that consulting. Um, it’s there in the blog’s section. And you know, I would also suggest that that blawg section does have a lot of other resource is, you know, if you’re interested in grant management and what products are out there or if you’re trying to figure out what might be the CIA RAM solution for you, we have several articles free webinars on other insights that folks are welcome to take a look at

[00:17:56.84] spk_1:
Okay. And the full the full conference. Ah, this presentation is there. That’s correct. Okay, is 1/10 dot consulting. That’s correct. Oh, I didn’t know. I didn’t know dot Consulting is a, uh Is it available for those called extension?

[00:18:17.13] spk_2:
Yeah, it’s available. Signed, signed up for a couple years ago and definitely opens things up. T create the name that you want, so yeah, www 0.1 temps that consulting, and we’ll take you right

[00:18:29.14] spk_1:
there. Okay, It’s in the block block section. That’s right. All right. Ruben saying he’s CEO. 1/10 Consulting, Um, in Maryland, outside Baltimore. Rubin. Thank you very much. Thanks very much for sharing.

[00:18:35.14] spk_2:
Thank you, Tony. I appreciate your time.

[00:21:12.05] spk_1:
My pleasure. Thanks. And thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 and TC. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software, Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands how you work. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for tony Stick to George Floyd. It’s a recorded murder. I am skeptically optimistic that the United States will deal this time with its institutional racism. If we’re gonna have a chance that that we each need to be the change we want to see, there’s no waiting for political leadership. They’ll get dragged along after we the people, start the conversation at our level. That needs to happen and I would like to help. Next week, non profit radio will have a special episode devoted to how to start the racism and white privilege conversation in your office. It’s a long journey. It begins with a single step. We each need to be the change we want to see. Start with me next week. That is tony Steak, too. Now, time for Facebook fundraising data. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020. Non profit technology conference with me now, our Nick Byrne, Julia Campbell and Maureen will be off. Nick is founder and CEO at Give Panel. Julia Campbell is author, speaker and teacher at J. Campbell Social Marketing And Maureen will be off is digital strategist and technology coach with practical wisdom for non profit accidental techies. Welcome, everybody. Nick. Julie. Morning. Welcome. Welcome, city pleasure. I’m glad we’re able to work this out. I know you’re each well and safe on. I’m glad to hear that. Everybody’s okay. Um, we’re talking about Facebook. Fundraising your 2020 topic, uh, for NTC is best kept secrets the getting and using Facebook fundraiser data. Julia, you’ve been talking about Facebook fundraising for so long we had you on?

[00:21:16.09] spk_3:
Yeah, last two years ago

[00:21:18.57] spk_1:
Was the the last year or two years ago. Um, you’re gonna have toe. You have to find a new gig.

[00:21:23.62] spk_3:
I know. Well keeps changing

[00:21:26.41] spk_1:
this this one trick things.

[00:21:27.84] spk_3:
And now I found neck. You’re like my Facebook fundraising soulmate, so

[00:21:32.14] spk_1:
that’s right. So I’m going to start with you, Since I know for a fact you’ve been doing this thinking about Facebook fundraising a long time. Um, what the problem is, Facebook doesn’t share. Right? We lamented the last year or two years ago, you and I.

[00:22:42.13] spk_3:
Yes. So I Yeah, it was in New Orleans, Um, 18 ntc with and I did the first session on Facebook fundraising tools, and it was when they had just come out and I had mental health, America and the Polaris Project with me because they were kind of just slaying it with Facebook funders and raising thousands of dollars. Like Nick likes to talk about that magic money that comes down when you turn on the tools. But the number one this was two years, the number one quandary and problem, an issue that nonprofits had and still have is this issue that you don’t get the information of the contact information for everyone that makes a donation, even if it’s not to you? Necessarily. It’s to someone else’s birthday fundraiser. So our entire philosophy and the three of us are all on the same page, and we talked about it. We have talked about this a lot is that you’re missing the point. If you focus on the data that Facebook gives you, there are ways to get the data and the content information for your fund raisers. The people that are raising money for you that are stepping up and saying I want to donate my birthday. This is a cause that I really care about right now. Everyone come together, raise money. Those are the people you need to focus on. And I think Nick made an amazing amazing point earlier this morning when we were talking. I love that point where you don’t want to clog up your Sierra Room in your database with the data of all these donors who don’t even want to hear from you anyway because they haven’t elected to hear from you. They didn’t really box

[00:23:27.81] spk_1:
their connection here, person they’re connected. The person who is running the fundraiser?

[00:23:32.51] spk_3:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So get around this. We need to get over this hump. And Nick can also talk a lot more about that. And Maureen can

[00:23:40.82] spk_1:
too. All right, So you don’t want to focus on what we don’t have.

[00:23:44.34] spk_3:
Yes, there is a

[00:23:44.95] spk_1:
possibility that they might be, uh, uh, interested in engaging with you and your cause.

[00:23:51.81] spk_3:

[00:23:52.45] spk_1:
But you don’t want you don’t focus on that possibility. Want focus on what we do have is that

[00:24:31.94] spk_3:
Well, yeah, there’s kind of two ways to look at it. One is Do you want un discretionary? Do you want to, um, totally on un discretionary funds? Do you want free funds that you could do with whatever you want to do with coming in? No one telling you what to do? What? They’re not earmarked. Do you want that kind of money? Do you want exposure to a brand new audience? Or do you want to focus on the fact that I gave $5 to Maureen’s birthday fundraiser But I only gave because of Maureen? I’m not really interested in animal rescue yourself. Hung up on getting my email, but we got to stop with that.

[00:24:33.41] spk_1:
OK? All right. Well, Nick, Julie obviously teed you off. So why don’t you give us your overview?

[00:24:39.94] spk_5:
Yeah, I mean, I think, like like Facebook. Call it social fund raising. And I think that’s the key, right? It’s social. It’s it’s enabling people who love your cause who want, like, support your mission to go out and raise money from their family and friends. And if if organizations and nonprofits just treat it like direct mail or something, right, it’s not social, and so you have to you have to go with it. And so there’s this myth that, you know you can’t get the data. Yeah, Facebook don’t share the data. That is true. But actually, we’ve pion eight near two ways that you can get a lot of fundraiser data. You’re not going to get the data of every single donor that gives to every every single fundraiser on Or do you want to clog your sierra em up with that information, right? Because they’re not gonna convert on email or direct mail like less than 2% of them opt in. When Facebook asked them to hear from you. And that’s a good sign that they gave to your t their friend or their family or their loved one. Not Teoh your cause. So go with the flow. Don’t fight Facebook. Use it for a CE, much as we can possibly use it for. It’s a fantastic fundraising

[00:25:50.14] spk_1:
tour. Okay, Nick, what’s out in your background? You have You have a projector on your ceiling projecting that onto the wall.

[00:25:56.43] spk_5:
So that’s Michael. Jordan told me to read the quote. It’s a bit it needs to be bigger, right? But Michael Jordan quite. It’s a Michael Jordan quote. So is Michael Jordan

[00:26:05.70] spk_1:
Reed. It go ahead.

[00:26:20.05] spk_5:
It says, Uh, I’ve missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I’ve lost almost 300 games 26 times. I’ve been trusted to take the winning shot and missed. I failed over and over again in my life, and that is why I succeed.

[00:26:25.02] spk_3:
I love that

[00:26:26.76] spk_1:
additional. Okay. Is that that’s not a projection from your ceiling onto the wall, is it?

[00:26:31.26] spk_5:
That is one of those decals things.

[00:26:34.15] spk_1:
Okay? You’re very, very high tech. If you’ve got one

[00:26:38.12] spk_5:
E say it’s like a hologram,

[00:26:41.29] spk_1:
right? Exactly like It’s a

[00:26:42.77] spk_5:
commercial reality. It’s argument is not really there.

[00:26:50.94] spk_1:
It’s one of those lights that shines in front of a restaurant on the sidewalk. Where is it coming from?

[00:26:52.25] spk_5:
A car, guys, it’s,

[00:26:53.94] spk_1:
uh uh OK, Marine. You want toe? Er, why don’t you add to the overview and get helping us get started?

[00:28:30.69] spk_4:
Sure. I think that, you know, part of what Julia and Nick are alluding to has been around for a long time when you think about peer to peer fundraising generally. So I’ve helped a lot of people over the years with either live physical events, that’s a five K or a bike or walk or D i y peer to peer fundraising events and organizations, generally speaking, do not do anything with the donors who give to those team captains or those participants. The data does go into their C. R M because somebody’s made an online gift and is part of that text stuff. The date is getting sucked over, but they’re not trying to convert those people. But for some reason, people feel very frustrated about the inability to get the $5 donor into their database and is Nick and Julie have both said. You’re paying attention to the glass half empty. You need to shift your mind, pay attention to the information you can get and cultivate those relationships. Um, we and fundraising think a lot about the lifetime value of a donor, right? It’s just like it’s ingrained. And whether you were formally trained in the stuff or not is all around us about who’s valuable, Who do I spend time on and who I don’t. And Facebook turns that like a 45 degree angle. And it can be awful hard to get your leadership on board with ignoring donors just really what we’re telling people to dio. Those aren’t the folks that you should be paying attention to When it comes to Facebook fundraising, it’s the fund raisers themselves, not the people who were actually giving. And that could take some conversation at your board level or your your executive or sea level Um, inside your award that it is. It is not the way it’s always been, and you have to be cool with that and give

[00:29:00.80] spk_1:
it a try.

[00:29:01.75] spk_5:
Can I just jump in, jump in and just come off the back of the no Yeah, yeah. On anarchism. So polite, right?

[00:29:21.14] spk_1:
No. Yes. You’re not sure what I was? What I was going to say, Maureen, before I was interrupted was e. I could see how clearly. Yes. Take a drink, Nick, please. I can see why your company’s practical wisdom.

[00:29:23.34] spk_4:
Yeah, like

[00:29:30.74] spk_1:
your wisdom for non profit accidental techies. All right. And I saw you checkered with Donald Techie. Okay, so So we’ve gotta persuade our vice president, CEO and board, Maybe. I mean, the board may not be involved in what we do. Ah, fundraising campaign on Facebook or not. But at

[00:29:43.83] spk_4:
least these leaders, you

[00:30:05.28] spk_1:
persuade some people in the chain that we should be focusing on the five people a year who hosted us hosted a fundraiser for us on Facebook. Or it might be more than five, But but not not the 500 who gave at the rate of 100 each to to those to those five fundraisers. Ones who created the campaign’s not the wardens who donated to the campaigns.

[00:30:32.38] spk_4:
Okay, wait a few rooms about Facebook. You know, sometimes people have negative feelings about Facebook and that can you know, dr their business practices and where they’re choosing to invest their time. And what we’re what we’re here to say is Evaluate, evaluate, test it. Is it gonna work for your organization or not? And

[00:30:32.57] spk_1:

[00:30:32.68] spk_4:
probably is. So, you know, get ready. Get ready for that

[00:31:05.04] spk_1:
time for our last break. Turn to communications. They’re former journalists. So you get help getting your message through it is possible to be heard through the headlines. They know exactly what to do to build relationships with the journalists that matter to you. They are themselves former journalists. Those great relationships will lead to great coverage. They’re a turn hyphen to not CEO. We’ve got but loads more time for Facebook fundraising data. Nick you not because you interrupted, but Julia said earlier that you had some tools that we can applying here. You want to acquaint us with something?

[00:32:40.83] spk_5:
Yes. So my background as a digital fundraiser, we got into this early when client we saw the problems of the clients were having with data on. We started doing everything like, manually with spreadsheets and reaching out to fund raisers one of their time on Facebook, that kind of thing. And we just decided Look, this is crazy. We’ve got to build a tool to help that fast forward 18 months later, and we’ve got over 100 nonprofits in seven countries using give panel on What we do is we basically help organizations take the power back from Facebook? That’s kind of what we do. Like Facebook are getting a lot out of this, and that’s great. They’ve given us free tools. It’s free to use no platform cost, no technology costs, nor even any credit card fees, Right? So Facebook have given us something great. We know that they benefit, but our job is to leverage that tool as much as we can get a gun and leverage it for their advertising model on to keep them employees happy and like it’s a great thing that they’ve given the world. But it’s upto organizations toe to take the power back. And so we do that by helping how organizations Steward Steward their fundraisers get the data from their fundraisers on do you know, see graphs and dashboards and all that kind of thing. So it’s kind of the missing tool that Facebook haven’t given Facebook’s base books. No interested, necessarily in kind of building the best tool for charities, their customers, the end user on. So they’ll always be a gap where people like me will want to service the non profit. Right? OK, that’s what we

[00:32:43.61] spk_1:
do. Okay. Thank you. Julia party. Your description says how to identify who launches Facebook fundraisers. Is that Is that something that’s difficult to dio Julia?

[00:32:54.64] spk_3:
Yes. So Facebook is not going Teoh tell you when someone launches fundraiser and they’re not going to tell you who has necessarily launched a fundraiser. So you do have If you’re small organization and you’re not using a tech tool like give panel to help you, then you are going to have to figure that out. You’re gonna have to constantly be looking at your fundraisers and constantly trying to figure out and identify where the campaigns are. But that is absolutely crucial even for a small organization to dio to thank people especially, and give them the tools to sort of have already in your maybe on your website toe have a little bit of a tool kit. Maybe it’s a one page document with tips for fundraisers to really elevate their campaigns because we know nobody was born a fundraiser. No one’s born knowing how to fundraise. And if someone’s trying to raise $200 for their birthday, it’s a win win. If they can succeed because they’re gonna feel great and it’s going to be an amazing legacy for them and they’re gonna be really excited, and then you’re gonna build that relationship with them because you helped them. So, yeah,

[00:34:06.96] spk_1:
so how do we identify if we don’t have a tool? How right? Go to Facebook O. R. And find who’s doing this for us.

[00:34:14.09] spk_3:
I’ll turn that over to net cause there’s a couple ways.

[00:34:25.07] spk_5:
Okay? Yes. So Facebook. When you signed up to Facebook giving tools, you get a tab on your fate on your non profit Facebook page that says fundraisers. So you can see fund raisers that have raised more than $50 in that list. The problem is that you over about 70 60 to 70% of your fund raisers don’t reach $50. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of big fundraisers, but there’s also a lot, a lot of small fundraisers.

[00:34:41.89] spk_1:
All right, so you’re not going to capture the smallest ones. You won’t be able to say thank you to them. Maureen, what do we do? Once we have identified the people who have have launched these fundraisers for US

[00:35:35.06] spk_4:
micro appreciation, I’ll use next term. You have to find small ways to recognize and appreciate the effort that these fundraisers air making, no matter how much or how little they’re raising for you. Facebook is the great equalizer in that everybody sort of knows what everybody is doing, and your fundraisers expect it. They expect you to be paying attention. They expect you to thank them and acknowledge them all within the tool, you know? Yeah, you certainly want to try to get enough information and their permission to move them over onto your email list so that they can learn more about your organization. They can be more empowered to fundraise more for your get otherwise involved, but, you know, sending a message. Knicks got a great program where people send a tiny little gift like a like a pin, a piece of swag that in your non profit they have sitting around It’s pennies. Teoh access it a diner to to mail it out, and then that person has a tangible thing that is reinforcing that relationship. They knew that I did it. They took a minute to say thank you. They actually gave me a thank you gift. And so every time an opportunity comes up in my personal life for me to start a fundraiser, I’m gonna go back to that organization and show my loyalty.

[00:36:20.11] spk_1:
And what can we do to encourage these fundraisers, whether it’s birthday or or whatever, How can we? How can we be promoting that idea to To our constituents?

[00:36:34.41] spk_4:
You do have to promote it. Radio promoting Julia, which I

[00:37:28.28] spk_3:
guess you have to be proactive rather than reactive. So sure, setting up the tools and registering for Facebook payments. Make sure you’re you know I’s are dotted and your T’s are crossed and your registered and you have all the tools set up. But it’s just like with the Donate button on websites 5 10 years ago. If you just put it on your website and don’t tell anybody, then you can’t just expect the donations to rolling as much as they could. You really have to be proactive. So advertising it, telling people this is an exciting new way. It’s effective. It’s safe Facebook doesn’t take any fees, kind of dispelling the myths and misconceptions out there around Facebook fundraising showing people examples of other fundraisers that have occurred, giving them the tools like, um, giving them photos, giving them videos, giving them text, explaining to them here the top five things to do when you start a Facebook fundraiser. Here’s what to do when you hit your halfway point but actively encouraging people. I’ve seen it in a welcome email sequence. Actually. Ah, lot of nonprofits. When you sign up for the email issue, make a donation. I’ve seen them encourage you in their little sequence. Say, to make a bigger impact. Would you be interested in setting up a Facebook funders or force? Put something on your website? Put something in your email signature. Do a Facebook live. You know, you really have to look at it as all hands on deck promoting this.

[00:38:06.00] spk_1:
What do we know about the characteristics of people who are most likely to do this? Are they necessarily the under 30?

[00:38:13.12] spk_3:
I don’t know, Nick. You might know that we

[00:38:15.41] spk_5:
we don’t have any demographic information. What we do have is that its acquisition, actually, this isn’t for something for your existing supporters donors as much as it is people who are getting noted, verified a week before on Facebook, a week before their birthday. Hey, do you want to set up a birthday fundraiser? And then they’re searching for breast cancer? They’re searching for arthritis. They’re searching for dunk cap, you know, whatever they want, their passion about what they want to give to. So 90% of our client data From what the studies we’ve done our new to the organization. They’re not people that were already on the database. So this is acquisition and its huge. We have clients that have 30,000 fundraisers a month. I mean, when you get it right, it’s by big.

[00:39:05.70] spk_1:
I’m surprised to hear I’m surprised to hear its acquisition. I didn’t expect that at all. We’re committed donors who thought of you on their birthday. You’re saying they’re thinking that their birthday is coming up and they’re looking for a cause?

[00:39:39.52] spk_5:
Yeah, that’s like So my my wife lost unfortunate, lost her mom to breast cancer two years ago. She wasn’t she just fighting breast cancer and shows the 1st 1 that came up on what we’re seeing is as more nonprofits get on Facebook, the slice of the pie is getting thinner and thinner, so you need to get in early is growing, but so is the adoption. And so organizations that go on it two years ago did very well. It’s not the birthday. Fundraising is slowing down is the fact that actually more organizations are jumping on because they’re seeing how successful it is.

[00:39:46.57] spk_1:
Okay, we’re gonna start to wrap up, Julia. I’m gonna give you ah, a shot and then never go to Maureen for the final. What do you want to leave people with? Maybe how to get started. Whatever final thoughts.

[00:39:59.52] spk_3:
Well, if you’ve not started yet, go to social good dot FB dot com and see if you’re eligible to register. It’s not open in every single country yet. And some tools air open in some countries and some are not. But the very the second thing I would dio is understand that this can Onley augment and enhance what you’re doing. What we’re saying is not to completely replace everything that’s working. I’m not saying Onley to face with fundraising and throw out your direct mail, which is what people are hearing. I think sometimes when I talk, I’m not saying that. I’m saying this is gonna enhance. And like Nick just said, it’s a way to acquire new people that are passionate. That could be even more passionate about your cause. Because everyone’s already on Facebook all day already. You know, there’s millions. Billions of people on Facebook is the leverage, the tools and do the best you can with what you have.

[00:40:55.84] spk_1:
Okay, Marine, would you wrap us up, please?

[00:41:31.71] spk_4:
Sure. Um I would say, Don’t let the perfect get in the way of the good, you know we can. We’re very terrible about snow. Sometimes in non profit culture. We take a really long time to think about things. A really long time to change gears. This is a time for action. Even if the world wasn’t dealing with the pandemic, it is a time for action for nonprofits. Try something having experimental frame. Get buying from your leadership, but try it. Try it. You really have nothing to lose. How’s that?

[00:41:38.24] spk_1:
Would an impassioned plea Yes, that Z from from Kit God, that’s Marine will be off digital strategist and technology coach with practical wisdom for non profit accidental techies. Also, Julia Campbell, The

[00:41:47.02] spk_3:
Penis of your voice over Any time you talk

[00:41:49.93] spk_1:
work what it is. The company right?

[00:41:52.11] spk_4:
It absolutely is

[00:42:10.80] spk_1:
way. Non profit. Accidental techies. Julia Campbell, author, speaker, trainer, author, speaker, teacher and trainer. Well, teachers Train right, Jay Campbell, social marketing and Nick Byrne with Any at the end. Founder and CEO Give Panel Marine and Julia and Nick. Thank you so much for sharing with us.

[00:42:15.43] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. Thank you.

[00:43:41.52] spk_1:
Stay Well, I’m glad we were able to work this out and thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of the virtual 20 NTC workshops sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software. The Knowledge Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us next week. The special episode on the racism conversation and more from 20 NTC on the regularly scheduled show. If you missed any part of today’s show, I’d be sent. You find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and my turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo Ah, creative producer is clear. Meyer off Sam Liebowitz Managed stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our rep guy. This music is by Scots You with me next week for not profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great