My Guests:
Judy Freed: Improve Your Email Engagement
Do you know that a big email list may be worse than a smaller one? Have you got ghosts or zombies in your lists? This all matters if you want your emails to land in inboxes instead of junk. Judy Freed, from Alliance for the Great Lakes, helps you see better engagement. She’s part of our 21NTC coverage.
Bonnie Hough: Improve Your Email Fundraising
Now that you’ve got engagement, make your best ask. Bonnie Hough, from Banyan Nonprofit Strategy, shares her thinking to make your email solicitations more effective.
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Transcript for 536_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20210503.mp3
I’m happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. [00:02:14.44] spk_1:
My pleasure were I’m glad that we can cover 21 NTC and then you and I can talk about building your email list for engagement and you make the point that a big list is not necessarily good if it’s not engaged. So what’s, what’s the disconnect that some folks are making that they think any, any big list is better than a smaller than any smaller list. [00:03:22.14] spk_2:
So, first of all, um, I think we should talk about. What is email engagement? And email engagement is when people are opening or clicking on your emails and when they’re converting, which means they’re taking actions that move your mission forward. That could be donating volunteer sign ups, petition signatures, all those sorts of things. So if you have a really big lift, but people aren’t opening or clicking or taking any of those actions that move your mission forward, it doesn’t matter how big the list is. What matters is whether people are doing those things or not. Um, if they are doing those things, they’re building a relationship with your organization, They’re learning about your mission and they’re they’re taking those key actions. Um, but if they’re not doing those things having a beat, big email list can actually cost you. [00:03:25.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And how is that? How does it cost? How does it hurt you? [00:04:20.34] spk_2:
So it hurts in a couple of ways. First of all, it can increase the cost of your email program. Um A lot of email providers charge you based on how many people you have on your email list or how many emails you send in each email campaign. So you could be paying for folks who are really just dead weight on your email list. Having that dead weight. Also can decrease your email delivery ability. And the reason for this is that the email algorithms that companies like Gmail or yahoo or outlook, they actually penalize emails that have low open rates and emails that are sent to what’s called zombie email addresses. And if they see those on your list, they’re not going to deliver your emails and strongly they might put them directly into people’s spam email boxes. [00:04:38.44] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah, we’re gonna get to ghosts and zombies. Uh But so the providers let’s make this explicit. So the providers track how your emails get engaged with and and and they can control where your emails end up. [00:05:19.14] spk_2:
Yes, and this is something that our work has been going on for a while, but it really became prominent around 2018 2019 um in 2019. Um gmail actually started telling um emailers concentrate on engagement. We’re going to use that as a key factor in determining how your emails get delivered and how your reputation is as an email sender. Mm. [00:05:35.94] spk_1:
Mhm. So so they yeah, they assign you a reputation. So if you’re if you’re a sloppy sender or maybe not sloppy, but your list is not well not heavily engaged. Um They can they can mark your messages as spam but not not marked by the recipient provider, but by the sending provider. The sending provider can say this is a garbage email send, it’s a spam. [00:06:50.44] spk_2:
Um Yes and um listeners may have had that happen to them when there’s an email list that they subscribe to and all of the sudden it’s appearing in their spam folder. You know, emails from that um lister ending up in their spam folder. Um that can happen either because the sender has been classified as having a bad sending reputation or because an individual email campaign has somehow been classified that way. If it’s got too low open rates or if some of the initial people who received it marked that campaign is spam. That particular campaign can be sort of de prioritized and those algorithms are changing all the time. I am certainly not an expert on how they work. Um but again, that that’s something that started to become very prominent by 2018 2019. And the email um companies are improving those algorithms from their perspective all the time to try to deliver what they think people want to see into their in boxes. [00:07:22.34] spk_1:
Okay. Right. So that explains why providers are scrupulous, Like I use mail chimp, scrupulous about when you add someone, you know, they want double authentication or they question you when you add the person versus the person signing up for the on their own, that you know that you have the permission they want. So they’re concerned about their own reputation. Has senders too, as well as the reputation of each individual center that’s sending through them. Right. Is that [00:07:58.54] spk_2:
absolutely? And most of the service agreements that you’ll see with companies like mail chimp um will require you to use certain best practices in adding people to your list and then they’ll make sure that there’s an easy way to unsubscribe and if emails are bouncing they’ll make sure you don’t send to them again. So that like you say, they can keep their reputation clean as well as yours. Okay? [00:08:27.84] spk_1:
Yeah, like the double opt in uh someone says they want to join a list and then they get an email to confirm that they want to join that list and they have to opt in that way. All right. All right, okay. So um where where how do you know if you’ve if you’ve got if you’ve got a problem, can can you can self identify it, what what what what measurements are you looking forward to figure out if if you’ve got a crummy list. Yeah. [00:08:28.44] spk_2:
Um So [00:08:30.19] spk_1:
it’s a technical term by the way, [00:08:49.94] spk_2:
I was gonna say, and crummy is not necessarily the right thing. Um, I would say if you are only bring in people who opt in and you’re taking care of unsubscribed and bounces in a professional way. Um, you don’t have a crummy list, you just have maybe a list, it could be better, [00:08:54.68] spk_1:
might not be engaged and unengaged list. Yeah. [00:10:20.94] spk_2:
Um, so some of the warning signs that you may have a list that’s not engaged um, if you are seeing steadily declining opening click rates, that could be a warning sign. Um, if you’re seeing sort of odd delivery problems on an occasional email, um, perhaps, Um, we had one situation where there was one email where we saw one domain that suddenly bounced hundreds and hundreds of emails and it had never done that before and um we were told that that particular domain had put in a new spam filter that was looking for some of the zombie email addresses and using that as a criteria. Um, there was another case where we had, We were sent two emails in one day and the second email had significantly lower open rates and we consulted with an email service provider, our emails expert who told us that those algorithms, if the first email you send in one day gets low opens than the second email, they might decide to just deliver it straight to the spam box. [00:10:27.34] spk_1:
Oh man. [00:10:28.52] spk_2:
So those were a couple of specific instances where we saw a problem. [00:10:33.84] spk_1:
Let’s get to, it goes, oh God, I’m sorry, I don’t want to interrupt you more. If you have more to explain how we know we have problems, please. [00:10:51.64] spk_2:
Sure. So the last one is kind of counterintuitive, but if you have a really low unsubscribed rate, then that could be a sign that you have people that aren’t engaging. Um They could just be like these zombie email address is um an abandoned email address. They’re not opening. They’re not clicking, they’re not unsubscribing. It’s just like they’re not there anymore. [00:11:09.74] spk_1:
So occasional unsubscribed are not so bad. [00:11:28.64] spk_2:
Exactly. And actually we have found that the more engaged your email list is um are unsubscribe. Subscribes have actually gone up since our email list got more engaged. Now you don’t want to go crazy with that, obviously. [00:11:31.52] spk_1:
Right. Yeah. We’re down to zero. Were so highly engaged that we have nobody left on our list. [00:11:36.75] spk_2:
Right? No, [00:11:44.54] spk_1:
That’s not right. It’s like bringing your pulse 20. I’m something in such good health, but my pulse is only is down to zero. Right? All right. All right. You mentioned this a couple times now, zombies. Let’s let’s define the zombies and ghosts, please. [00:12:35.14] spk_2:
Sure. Um, so the names for the folks who aren’t engaging with your email, um, the first is zombies. And those are folks who did sign up for your email at one point. They may have been opening and clicking, but they haven’t for some long period of time. And how long sort of depends on your organization. Um, some folks say for more than six months. Some people say for more than a year. Um, some people say for more than 90 days, it depends on what your organizations. Um, goals are and what your programs are like. Um, Ghosts are people who subscribed and never opened or clicked not once. [00:12:53.74] spk_1:
What’s the what’s the thinking behind that? They they they why Why would they have done that? [00:13:42.24] spk_2:
That’s a really good question. Um, Some of them may be people who, um, so for instance, we have a volunteer program. Um, Maybe they have an email address that they always use when they’re signing up to volunteer, but then they only read the emails about that volunteering experience, you know, like the auto generated things, but they never read the book emails that you send as part of an email campaign. They just don’t do that. Um, Other folks may have an email address that they’ve set up. Like if they take action on an action alert, they contact their congressmen and they set up a special email address that they never open. [00:13:49.84] spk_1:
Okay. Right. They gave your they gave you a right an address that they don’t use just to satisfy you that they gave you some address because you you needed, they needed something. They had to give you something. So they gave you one they don’t look at [00:14:03.74] spk_2:
exactly. [00:14:13.64] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. All right. Uh, how do we, how do we improve? I mean, I guess, I mean at the simplest level is we should have decent content, Right? And it should be segmented to folks. So we were hitting their priorities and their interests [00:15:58.34] spk_2:
absolutely. Um, you know, you want to be giving people what they think they signed up for, um, getting them with, um, or sending them stuff that they’re interested in. Um, another important thing is to segment your list based on their level of engagement. So what that looks like is maybe for your newest constituents, you’re sending them an email welcome series that’s targeting whatever you know about them at that point. So that is information that is introducing them to your brand and your mission and letting them know how they can get involved. Um, for folks who are new, who’ve been through that welcome stories for people who are really engaging with your email. Those folks, you probably want to have more frequent communication with and be giving them regular information about how they can get involved, What’s new, how their involvement is making a difference, all those sorts of things. And then if they get to a point where they haven’t interacted with your email for a while, um, you might want to put them on what we call an email diet where you’re not sending them quite as much. You’re curating it a little bit more. Again, still trying to target their interests. And then if they still don’t open, you might want to give them a little bit of a break and then send them what’s called a reengagement series. Um, which probably everybody has gotten some of these from somebody in the past. This is the, hey, we haven’t heard from you in awhile. Do you still want to be on our email list? [00:16:16.74] spk_1:
That sounds like rehab like they went from surgery to a rehab center? [00:16:24.14] spk_2:
Yeah, it’s, um, it’s [00:16:26.06] spk_1:
trying to rehabilitate them and then either they go, they improve or they get worse and you know, maybe they need to move from rehab to, uh, to assisted living. Or maybe they could go rehab back home, which is they get more engaged while while they’re in the rehab center [00:16:44.74] spk_2:
or you could look at it more as relationship counseling because it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s something wrong with them. It’s about the relationship that you two have together. Maybe it’s not a good fit. [00:17:03.54] spk_1:
Okay, that’s true. Yeah. All right. All right, interesting metaphors. Okay. Um, what other ideas? I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna, I don’t want to shortchange nonprofit radio listeners other ideas for improving engagement. [00:18:27.64] spk_2:
Um, so again, I think all the things that you’ve talked about, as far as, you know, giving them relevant content, um, targeting by interest, targeting, by engagement segment. Um, one thing I wanted to get back to a little bit was the idea of these zombie email addresses. Um, this is a little bit different from how they’re interacting with your email. This is a specific kind of email address, which is somebody who had an email account and maybe subscribe to your emails, but then they moved on. Maybe they left to change schools left to change jobs, change their personal email address. If that old email account wasn’t closed, it’s called the zombie email address and everything that that person signed up for. All those emails are still going to their box. Um, so that is an example of maybe somebody who has moved on from the relationship. Yeah. Uh huh. Taken back to your metaphors. [00:18:46.54] spk_1:
Okay. And that’s right. So that’s another that’s another form of zombie. Okay. That could be a detrimental one. I mean if the organization where they work, let’s say somebody changes jobs where they worked as sloppy and they don’t close that account. All the all the messages indefinitely, you’re going to this inactive box. That can hurt you. [00:18:54.14] spk_2:
Yes. That can you as a sender. Um And it can also hurt that company because somebody a spammer could take over that email address and do nefarious things with it, [00:19:42.24] spk_1:
Right? It’s sloppy. Sloppy practice. So All right. So there’s there’s a reason again to segment by engagement as you were as you were explaining, because if they run engaged for however long it takes to, you know, whatever you set your threshold at. You wanna you wanna ask if they still want to be party to this relationship or not? Yeah. Alright. Um Are there places where we can uh identify benchmarks? So we know like for our mission type or for our organization size or for our list size or however however they might be identified. We can benchmark against to know if we’re doing well or doing poorly. [00:20:31.04] spk_2:
Um There are some um So one of them that we use is the m in our benchmarks and they do a digital Benchmarking for non profits every year in association with and 10 the nonprofit technology network. And they will have information about average open click action and unsubscribed rates for different types of emails. Um Like an e newsletter versus fundraising email versus um an action alert. Um And they’ll look at that for also different sized lists. Um It’s a very useful tool and that’s actually where we saw that our unsubscribed were very low compared to industry benchmarks. And that’s one of the things that got us thinking. [00:20:42.84] spk_1:
All right, Where do we find this? Uh, M in our report? [00:20:46.64] spk_2:
So you can find this one? [00:20:54.74] spk_1:
Is it M and R. Or M. N. R. The letter N. M. [00:20:56.22] spk_2:
Plus are you can find [00:20:58.17] spk_1:
it and plus R. [00:21:03.64] spk_2:
M like mr R benchmarks dot com. [00:21:15.14] spk_1:
So M. R benchmarks dot com. Like mike Romeo benchmarks dot com. Okay. Yes. That’s something free that the listeners can use. [00:21:18.34] spk_2:
Yes. [00:21:20.94] spk_1:
Wonderful. Okay, Judy. I have to admonish you. That 10 is no longer, they don’t want to be called the nonprofit technology network anymore. [00:21:27.14] spk_2:
Oh, I’m sorry. I missed the memo. [00:21:50.64] spk_1:
That’s okay. Yeah. Uh, Amy sample award is a regular contributor on the show. And um, I don’t know, a year or maybe 18 months ago, they did a very soft little rebrand. They went the way of, uh, you know, automobile association of America. That doesn’t want to be that anymore. They just triple a and uh, the american Association of Retired Persons AARP. They just want to be a R. P. No more american association. So 10 went that way. [00:21:59.94] spk_2:
Well, thank you for the correction. I [00:22:17.34] spk_1:
appreciate it. You know, um, it would mean a lot to amy sample word. If I, if I didn’t, if I didn’t mention it to you, she, she might be disappointed in me. So that’s why I’m doing it. She holds me to high standards when it comes to using their name. Um, All right. What else do we have? We still have a couple minutes left. If, if there’s something we haven’t covered or you want to go into more detail on anything. [00:22:27.94] spk_2:
Um, there is one other thing that I think is really interesting when you’re working on building your email [00:22:36.11] spk_1:
list [00:23:25.34] spk_2:
and that is to think about where your subscribers are coming from. And if you have the capacity to do so look at the engagement that you’re getting from those different sources, like if you have a volunteer program or if you’re doing digital advertising or if you’re having action alerts and people are signing up for your email list when they contact their congressmen or you’re paying to post petitions on a place like care too. Um, how are all those different people performing, who are coming from those different sources? And that can be really useful to look at their email engagement and especially their conversions to see how is your investment of time and money paying off? [00:23:57.24] spk_1:
Yeah. What’s the quality of those sources as referral sources? Absolutely. It might be crummy as my technical term again. Um, Okay. Yes. Very good. I like your advice to about segmenting by engagement. I’ve never heard that, but it makes a lot of sense related to this. Especially so All right. How about we leave it there judy sound. Okay. [00:23:59.75] spk_2:
Sounds good. [00:28:34.34] spk_1:
Alright. She’s judy freed senior marketing manager at alliance for the Great Lakes. Thank you very much, judy. Thank you. My pleasure. And thanks to all of you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc 2021 nonprofit technology conference. So you’re allowed to say, you’re allowed to say NtC is a nonprofit technology conference. You’re just not allowed to say in 10 is a nonprofit technology network anymore. That’s all. And we’re sponsored at 21 Ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You’ve been hearing a lot about them this week and in previous weeks, what they’re ubiquitous, what can we say? They’re, they’re generous sponsors, the ambitious biden agenda. Anything in their impact, your work, anything in there you’d like to be heard on. I want to be a trusted source, improve your chances of an op ed getting published. We’d like to get quoted turn to has the relationships to make these happen because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O. It’s time for Tony’s take two. It’s okay to be barren when I was writing this week’s Insider alert. Well, the last weeks now, last week’s Insider alert, I just didn’t have anything pithy or newsworthy. Uh, I’m sure, I mean, there’s always seems like there’s always something newsworthy, but I just wasn’t, I wasn’t feeling it. I was feeling, uh, baron of, of something worth putting into the intro to the Insider alert, bereft, bereft of something that merits being there. So I just said that I just said, I’m feeling Baron today, like, you know, I don’t have any, I don’t have anything I think you’ll be interested in, so I’m just gonna introduce this week’s show and in the moment that felt kind of awkward, but that was how I felt and on reflection. Now, the next day, the day after I do the Insider alerts on thursday and I typically record the shows or put the shows together on, on Fridays. So, you know, with, with days perspective, it’s not so bad to occasionally be barren or bereft of ideas. Uh you know, uh as long as I think as long as it’s not chronic, um you know, just there’s gonna be times when you’re not feeling so creative uh in my, in my words, it was so pithy, I was lacking pitch. That was sands. Piff, nope. If no pith today, um I wasn’t pissed about having no pith and I’m still not pissed about having no pith. So like I’m saying, so with some perspective, you know, it’s going to happen. So don’t beat yourself up. I didn’t in the moment and I’m not now either. So don’t do it to yourself. There are gonna be those days, hours, days, maybe even a week. You know, you’re just, you’re not, you don’t feel your mojo. That’s okay. That’s okay. You’ll overcome it. You’re, you know, analogize yourself like, you know, to an artist or a writer. You know, they get blocks, You’re doing creative work. You can get blocked up. It’s okay. It’s okay. That is Tony’s take two. I wish I I kind of wish I had some remedies for you. I don’t the guys right. The males are supposed to have solutions. Uh, not, I don’t know if I’m an alpha male, I don’t think I am, but even, uh, even beta males are, you know, the guys are wired to have solutions. I don’t have any solutions. I’m just saying it’s okay. Mm And that truly is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for nonprofit radio here is improve your email fundraising. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc, the 2021 nonprofit technology conference were sponsored at 21 Ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o With me now is Bonnie huff. She’s a fundraising coach and consultant under banyan non profit strategy. Welcome body. [00:28:35.74] spk_0:
Thanks for having me today. tony [00:28:47.34] spk_1:
pleasure. Pleasure to have you on nonprofit radio Your topic is simple changes to your email communications that raise more money. So we’re trying to make email fundraising more effective. [00:28:51.14] spk_0:
The most important thing from the last year. Right. The only way we’ve been able to get in front of people pretty much [00:29:10.24] spk_1:
Yeah, well there’s still direct mail, but direct mail has its place, but email certainly picked up a lot of slack. We could not do in 2020. All right. So, um, where would you like to start? Where should, where should we start with bringing this to folks? [00:30:18.84] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think what may make sense is kind of how I started with, um, session was my experience in this eye have always before, my time as a consultant and a coach have worked in small nonprofit teams. And email was one of the many things that I did under my umbrella of fundraising and communications. And, and so while this session is a lot is about fundraising through email, it’s really, it’s core about how do you engage and excite people? How do you get them engaged and excited for what you’re sending and receiving? Um, because I think especially in small teams, you know, emails, it kind of becomes this side the side thing. Right. It’s, it’s a lot of times, it’s no one person’s focus. Um, we send out one email newsletter a month and it’s just kind of a brain dump of all of the great stuff that’s been going on, but it may not be set up in a way that is, um, as engaging as it can be to the audience. And so that’s really the goal of, of what I was talking with the participants at NtC [00:30:26.79] spk_1:
about, we need to be more sophisticated, more deliberate. [00:30:31.23] spk_0:
Yeah. And [00:30:32.43] spk_1:
and that our [00:30:52.04] spk_0:
email. Yeah. And, and how do you as a small team especially make it more sustainable for you? So rather than sending it all out in one dump as as one email a month. Can you trickle that information out and kind of hone in on specific stories each time? And really thinking about how do you work to your advantage the way that you’re using your email communications rather than just sticking in this one box that for whatever reason is kind of the standard that most non profits go to with that monthly newsletter. [00:31:18.54] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. So we need to add some, some structure to this and schedule. So we have a communications plan. Hopefully marketing plan as a part of that. You want to see an email plan? [00:31:53.74] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it’s going to be different for every organization. Right. Because I think about, you know, animal welfare organizations a lot of times they have great content of numerous stories of adoptable pets and pictures and things like that. So they may be at a place where they want to send email once a week so that those stories and those pictures are getting in the inbox of the individuals that are on their list. But for another organization, it may be really difficult to capture that content. And so they may want to structure it so that they’re sending every once a month. But it’s only one client story every month or something like that. And it’s really, it’s going beyond some sort of ready made content calendar and thinking, what is the natural cadence of the work we do and how do we use email to really highlight that to the people that were talking to? [00:32:15.34] spk_1:
I mean if you take that example of animal welfare, uh, it’s a humane society or something that can be daily emails. Yes. Yeah. Our new, our new visitors are new residents or something right for folks who want to be on the front line of adoption. [00:33:18.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And and kind of getting it that, you know, the idea of new visitors are new new people that are signing on to your cause. Another thing that I shared in the session that I think is so important and so underutilized for nonprofits as a whole, is a welcome email. Um, and that is just an automated email that invites the person and welcomes them to your community. Thanks them for engaging with you. And my favorite strategy with welcome emails is to ask the question to your new email subscribers. So it may be how did you find us? But it could be why are you engaged in our mission? What is it about our mission that excites you? So you’re building that two way communication from the get go. And it’s becoming more of a a conversation rather than that one way relationship of here’s our newsletter. But please don’t email us back because we can’t handle it. Right? [00:33:45.24] spk_1:
Yeah. A conversation now. I mean for like a mid sized organization. Can that become a little too burdensome to manage all that communication? I’m trying to put people off. I mean if the small organization and you think you’re gonna get back like four or five emails a day, sure its matter that’s manageable. But suppose you think might get you might get 100 a day [00:34:24.94] spk_0:
I think. I think the so my my focus is working with small community organizations and so there is that side of it. But I also think, um, you know, only a tiny number of people are going to respond. And so a lot of, about a lot of what works with email, fundraising is also just testing and tweaking. Put it out there for a week and if you are totally overwhelmed, you know, or, or a day depending on how big you are, but if you’re bigger, you also may have more staff capacity to, you know, respond to those things. Um, but I’m always, you know, pushing my clients to test and, and, and see what feels authentic and is working to engage people. [00:34:43.94] spk_1:
There is an important, um, I’m gonna call an axiom mayor that when you invite people to reply, very few are going to, [00:34:45.47] spk_0:
I [00:35:18.54] spk_1:
do plan to giving fundraising and lots of times clients are reluctant to put a phone number on a piece or in a letter And I say nobody’s gonna call, but you have to make yourself available. I could probably count on two hands the number of phone calls that people have gotten about, will’s mailings that I’ve done over the past 15 years or something. People don’t call. You know, you make the invitation, but so don’t be put off by. We’re going to be overwhelmed. My God, we’re not like you’re saying tested, but the object of being overwhelmed are are small [00:35:21.48] spk_0:
and just the act of putting that question out there and showing people that there is another human on the other side of these [00:35:28.44] spk_1:
emails [00:35:39.14] spk_0:
is so big in building that trust in that report and the credibility with your potential donors and your email audience. Even if they don’t respond, it’s just one of those subconscious things that they connect the dots that, you know, I’m not talking to just a random boat on the Internet. It’s the real people that are there doing the work [00:36:00.73] spk_1:
so consistent with that. Um, how do you feel about, I suppose, you know, the reply email addresses development at whatever welfare, uh, animal welfare versus, versus a person versus a person. [00:36:48.43] spk_0:
You know, I think, um, in this kind of gets to the staff capacity thing, you can use development at or info at or whatever, but maybe try putting a footer that says, this is monitored by our whole development team. You may hear back from multiple individuals, but we’re all here, you know, ready to respond. Um, I think that it can be really helpful so that like you said, if you are inundated with things, there are multiple team members kind of monitoring that address. But again, it’s just that, that transparency, um, with donors, they understand that, you know, most of the time, most donors understand we are understaffed and, and have a lot of stuff on our plates. So if you explain to them why you’re using a less personal email address, i in my experience, most people are totally fine with that. [00:37:32.33] spk_1:
And maybe even for the test, it might be what you want to do your development or info and see what happens absolutely free a month back. You know, one person, a person can handle that. Right? Exactly. So do you want to see like a six month schedule calendar of well with, with flexibility because events might change. News might break. That’s relevant to your nonprofits work or whatever. But you want to see a long term midterm, midterm long. Uh, I think [00:38:06.32] spk_0:
planning six months to a year is good because then you are connecting the dots between your overall fundraising development plan, your social media plan your events plan so that all of those things are talking to each other. But like you said, with the ability to, you know, throw it all up in the air if say a covid happens and and jump on those opportunities where they fit um, for your organization. I do think planning is super important. I think it’s planning with that human element in it. That is where people see real success in real real response rates. [00:38:16.72] spk_1:
You like to see one person responsible for the email communications. [00:38:48.62] spk_0:
I think it depends on the organization. I think, you know, at smaller organizations, everybody is going to have a hand in gathering the pictures, gathering the content, whatever it might be. But it does help to have a single person developed the email, you know, get it across the finish line and and pull it all together so there needs to be, there needs to be a lead, but again, you know, totally dependent on the organization, how it works with connecting with different departments and and who who should be offering what content um [00:38:59.22] spk_1:
how do you feel about embedding video into your emails for for better engagement? [00:40:44.91] spk_0:
Um video can be really powerful. It also, you know, it can affect the load time of an email and if it takes too long to load, people may just get bored and you know, just delete it. Um But what can also work is, you know, embedding the video on your website and kind of doing a screenshot of the video so that you and and hyping it that way so that people are then bounce into your website. Um uh I think the the only thing with email is the more you have in there, the harder it can be to deliver and load on people’s sites and we are on people’s computers and we only have you know a split second of attention before if they do open before they they may lose interest so that it’s a balancing act. Um I do think one thing to talk to think about for organizations that are considering what to include and how to include it. One thing that I always offer is consider what’s above the fold. Um but in terms of email that means what are they gonna see before they ever scroll? So there is um you know both on mobile and desktop, take time to look at that and see is your main link to your call to action in that top part of your email um and make sure the stuff with the most impact that you want, the most people to see and interact with is in that section because that is where most, most people aren’t going to scroll past down to the bottom, especially when you get to those sections, that same message clipped and you have to click through to an entirely different web page, you know, So I I do always um suggest taking time to think about what is above the fold in that, in that way [00:41:04.51] spk_1:
you have other ideas about content. [00:42:02.50] spk_0:
Um I think, you know, well, one thing that I did want to share, I have made all of my materials from the session available on my site that people can download for free. Um and I have an entire guide of, well, a two page guide of my top copy tips for email fundraising um along with some uh an example welcome sequence email. So I wanted to share that link with everybody in case you’re interested. It is Banyan non profit strategy dot com slash free resources. And there’s a button there right at the top that says download the 21 NTC materials so people can get that directly from there. Um, I think, you know, with a couple of minutes left, I think the one thing that we have good, good, good, the other big thing that we do, [00:42:03.65] spk_1:
Maybe it feels like this is dragging for, you know, no, feels like it’s been 35, 40 minutes or so. It’s only been about [00:42:11.11] spk_0:
tony I just know that I can talk and talk and it just, [00:42:21.40] spk_1:
I can manage you, but it’s not hope, it’s not feeling like it’s been an hour. No, [00:44:05.49] spk_0:
no. The other major topic that I touched on was, you know, once you have this engaged audience that is opening your emails and they are donating because you’ve kind of made these copy changes. How do you grow your list? Because that is one thing that especially with small organizations, if you still only have a couple 100 people on that, you know, they give, but the you’re still wanting to get your audience bigger, right? That’s that’s the goal. Um, and one thing that I shared with the participants that really seemed to connect with them was how can you think through an opportunity for an opt in or an incentive for your organization that also connects with your mission? Um, and so options are obviously very well known in the marketing world, which is just a free downloadable resource in exchange for your email address. Um, and I think far too few nonprofit organizations use this as a, as a tool to get people that are clearly and naturally engaged and connected to your cause. Um so, you know, an example could be going along with the animal welfare organization, um would be, you know, a list of low cost veterinary services in your area or um, you know, a health center, a health clinic may offer a three day meal plan or healthy cooking challenge for people that may have just gotten a diabetes diagnosis or something along those lines. So you were, you know, simultaneously you’re growing your list, but you’re also um fulfilling that education component of your mission. Um and and kind of kind of meeting those two needs in the middle. [00:44:18.59] spk_1:
It doesn’t have to be a heavy lift. No, it doesn’t have to be a 12 page white paper. [00:44:51.29] spk_0:
And and so many organizations already have this in their files somewhere that they’re sharing with their clients and their partners and things like that. And all it is is putting it up on the website and offering it as a free download. Um, and, and so I think that’s one thing that, you know, nonprofits can definitely learn from, from the digital marketers of the world, um, and kind of think through how they can connect the dots in that way to grow their audience. [00:45:37.89] spk_1:
Can I have a little caveat to that peccadillo of mine is when I’m offered something like that and I do it and then they asked me for too much information that that’s mandatory. I mean, I don’t mind, I don’t mind first name, I don’t even mind last name. I know some people object to last name, but first name for me person, first name, last name, email. I’ll give you the, yeah, I’ve been asked for phone number, not opting in for texts and calls. I’m, I’m just, I’ll give you my email. But I’ve heard for other folks a mandatory should be like first name and email. If you know you’re going to use the first name, you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna personalize your emails and just ask for an email address. Yeah. Zip code, phone number, you know, [00:45:42.08] spk_0:
security number, [00:45:43.42] spk_1:
just blood type, you [00:45:45.63] spk_0:
know, mission [00:45:47.39] spk_1:
status, you know, whatever, whatever intrusive thing of the day, you know, keep that to a minimum and what make sure you’re going to use what you ask [00:46:37.88] spk_0:
for. I always suggest. I mean the more you ask for, the fewer people are going to sign up. So I always say name and email and that way you do have their names. Should you ever want to use it and personalize it because personalization does help. Um especially if it’s a, you know, a personalized thank you acknowledgement. Then you’re you’re a step further. Um, but I always say start with name and email because all you’re trying to do is build that relationship with people and kind of start a conversation. And, and from there you can ask for the phone number, ask for all of those, you know, more detailed things that you may not need right off the bat. [00:46:44.48] spk_1:
You have other ideas around audience growth. So that that’s a that’s a that’s a great one. They opt in for some content. [00:48:13.67] spk_0:
The other one that I always offer because it’s so simple, but it’s so I see it a lot, especially with the smaller organizations is, um, how easy is it for you to go on your website and find your newsletter? Sign up because so many organizations, it’ll be down at the bottom or you know, I’ve had clients where it’s hidden on three different pages, but not on the home page. And, and so the simpler you can make it for people to find ways to connect with your email, um, the better. And so so taking some time to go to your website as if you were a first timer and never visited. It’s also helpful for just helping people to helping to understand if you are communicating your mission and all of that good stuff. But if someone shows up to your website for the first time, will they know what you do? Will they know how to sign up to stay engaged with you both email and social media? And do you make it easy to do that? So are you only asking for the bare minimum of, you know, name and email and things like that? So kind of putting that beginners or you know, fresh eyes lens on looking at your own site because we can all be so, you know, in the weeds of it in the day to day that it can be hard. It can be easy to overlook that, you know, it’s actually just buried somewhere. And so no one ever seeing it. [00:48:20.87] spk_1:
All right. Um, we still got to spend another few minutes together. [00:48:23.54] spk_0:
Yeah. Let me trying to think of [00:48:27.49] spk_1:
what about, well, we kind of glossed over email content because you said you have the free resource. Yeah. What other, what other content ideas can we talk [00:51:00.76] spk_0:
about? Yes. So I think the, you know, a couple of things with, with content. Um, I’m switching gears here. I think the biggest, you know, big picture content that kind of goes back to the planning and the calendar. Um, is I use an 80 20 rule. So 80% of the emails you send should be mission focused and 20% should be fundraising focused. That’s obviously a guideline. Um, it’s not a hard and fast rule, but the idea being that people are often not going to open all of your emails. And so even if they open half of your emails at that point, usually they are still going to see just as much or more mission content so that when they do open the fundraising content, they are, you know, primed and ready and and understand why they’re being asked. So that’s, that’s one tip. I have big picture. Um, in terms of, you know, in an email itself, what what are things that people should look out for? Um, this is, is widely used in all fundraising copy. But the number of times people are, your organization is saying you versus we is really important. And so rather than saying our organization achieved X, Y Z, it really needs to connect the potential donor to that transformation. So your support made it possible for blank to happen. Um, and, and the reason behind that is subconsciously when, when we’re reading our organization achieved blank, we’re thinking well, because you know, they’re already doing such great work. So maybe I don’t need to give my gift today, or maybe I don’t need to support them in this way at this time. So making it so that the donor and their support is making the impact of, um, is making the impact happen is really important in terms of actual email content. And I’m trying to pull up that, uh, okay. The all [00:51:01.68] spk_1:
right, well, we don’t have to talk about content necessarily. Folks can get to get the resource anything. Um, but we could leave it there, body. [00:51:45.06] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think um the biggest thing that for me and, and in my experience as someone who kind of got, who jumped into email with with not much uh, not much experience way back. When is the more authentic and transparent you can be and this goes for any, you know, connections and communications with donors or our audience, but the more authentic and transparent you can be the better and, and you know, finding ways to build that human connection beyond. Um just that, that newsletter model that we’ve all kind of always done is is a really useful thing to think through for your organization. [00:52:11.85] spk_1:
All right, Bonnie huff fundraising coaching consultant. The company is Banyan non profit strategy. You can get all those good resources resources at Banyan non profit strategy dot com slash free resources. Aptly named the aptly named U R. L. You can make it any simpler. Alright, thank you very much Bonnie. [00:52:17.13] spk_0:
Thank you. tony [00:53:16.45] spk_1:
my pleasure. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21. Ntc where were sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o next week we’re all about online accessibility. If you missed any part of this week’s show where we were all about email improvement, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. You don’t really need me to call out that uh today’s theme right, this week’s theme and you you pick that up you did you grasp that? I know you did responsive by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott. Stein, mm hmm. Thank you for that information scotty Do with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great.
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[00:01:48.84] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with relapsing polycom dry tous if I had to hear that you missed this week’s show, improve your email engagement. Do you know that a big email list may be worse than a smaller one? Have you got ghosts or zombies in your lists? This all matters if you want your emails to land in, in boxes instead of junk Judy Freed from Alliance for the Great Lakes helps you see better engagement. She’s part of our 21 NTC coverage and improve your email fundraising now that you’ve got engagement, make your best ask Bonnie huff from Banyan non profit strategy shares her thinking to make your email solicitations more effective. This is also part of 21 NTCC on tony state too. It’s okay to be barren. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is improve your email engagement. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc the 2021 nonprofit technology conference were sponsored at 21 Ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o With me now is judy freed Senior marketing manager at alliance for the Great Lakes. Welcome judy.
I’m happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. [00:02:14.44] spk_1:
My pleasure were I’m glad that we can cover 21 NTC and then you and I can talk about building your email list for engagement and you make the point that a big list is not necessarily good if it’s not engaged. So what’s, what’s the disconnect that some folks are making that they think any, any big list is better than a smaller than any smaller list. [00:03:22.14] spk_2:
So, first of all, um, I think we should talk about. What is email engagement? And email engagement is when people are opening or clicking on your emails and when they’re converting, which means they’re taking actions that move your mission forward. That could be donating volunteer sign ups, petition signatures, all those sorts of things. So if you have a really big lift, but people aren’t opening or clicking or taking any of those actions that move your mission forward, it doesn’t matter how big the list is. What matters is whether people are doing those things or not. Um, if they are doing those things, they’re building a relationship with your organization, They’re learning about your mission and they’re they’re taking those key actions. Um, but if they’re not doing those things having a beat, big email list can actually cost you. [00:03:25.94] spk_1:
Yeah. And how is that? How does it cost? How does it hurt you? [00:04:20.34] spk_2:
So it hurts in a couple of ways. First of all, it can increase the cost of your email program. Um A lot of email providers charge you based on how many people you have on your email list or how many emails you send in each email campaign. So you could be paying for folks who are really just dead weight on your email list. Having that dead weight. Also can decrease your email delivery ability. And the reason for this is that the email algorithms that companies like Gmail or yahoo or outlook, they actually penalize emails that have low open rates and emails that are sent to what’s called zombie email addresses. And if they see those on your list, they’re not going to deliver your emails and strongly they might put them directly into people’s spam email boxes. [00:04:38.44] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah, we’re gonna get to ghosts and zombies. Uh But so the providers let’s make this explicit. So the providers track how your emails get engaged with and and and they can control where your emails end up. [00:05:19.14] spk_2:
Yes, and this is something that our work has been going on for a while, but it really became prominent around 2018 2019 um in 2019. Um gmail actually started telling um emailers concentrate on engagement. We’re going to use that as a key factor in determining how your emails get delivered and how your reputation is as an email sender. Mm. [00:05:35.94] spk_1:
Mhm. So so they yeah, they assign you a reputation. So if you’re if you’re a sloppy sender or maybe not sloppy, but your list is not well not heavily engaged. Um They can they can mark your messages as spam but not not marked by the recipient provider, but by the sending provider. The sending provider can say this is a garbage email send, it’s a spam. [00:06:50.44] spk_2:
Um Yes and um listeners may have had that happen to them when there’s an email list that they subscribe to and all of the sudden it’s appearing in their spam folder. You know, emails from that um lister ending up in their spam folder. Um that can happen either because the sender has been classified as having a bad sending reputation or because an individual email campaign has somehow been classified that way. If it’s got too low open rates or if some of the initial people who received it marked that campaign is spam. That particular campaign can be sort of de prioritized and those algorithms are changing all the time. I am certainly not an expert on how they work. Um but again, that that’s something that started to become very prominent by 2018 2019. And the email um companies are improving those algorithms from their perspective all the time to try to deliver what they think people want to see into their in boxes. [00:07:22.34] spk_1:
Okay. Right. So that explains why providers are scrupulous, Like I use mail chimp, scrupulous about when you add someone, you know, they want double authentication or they question you when you add the person versus the person signing up for the on their own, that you know that you have the permission they want. So they’re concerned about their own reputation. Has senders too, as well as the reputation of each individual center that’s sending through them. Right. Is that [00:07:58.54] spk_2:
absolutely? And most of the service agreements that you’ll see with companies like mail chimp um will require you to use certain best practices in adding people to your list and then they’ll make sure that there’s an easy way to unsubscribe and if emails are bouncing they’ll make sure you don’t send to them again. So that like you say, they can keep their reputation clean as well as yours. Okay? [00:08:27.84] spk_1:
Yeah, like the double opt in uh someone says they want to join a list and then they get an email to confirm that they want to join that list and they have to opt in that way. All right. All right, okay. So um where where how do you know if you’ve if you’ve got if you’ve got a problem, can can you can self identify it, what what what what measurements are you looking forward to figure out if if you’ve got a crummy list. Yeah. [00:08:28.44] spk_2:
Um So [00:08:30.19] spk_1:
it’s a technical term by the way, [00:08:49.94] spk_2:
I was gonna say, and crummy is not necessarily the right thing. Um, I would say if you are only bring in people who opt in and you’re taking care of unsubscribed and bounces in a professional way. Um, you don’t have a crummy list, you just have maybe a list, it could be better, [00:08:54.68] spk_1:
might not be engaged and unengaged list. Yeah. [00:10:20.94] spk_2:
Um, so some of the warning signs that you may have a list that’s not engaged um, if you are seeing steadily declining opening click rates, that could be a warning sign. Um, if you’re seeing sort of odd delivery problems on an occasional email, um, perhaps, Um, we had one situation where there was one email where we saw one domain that suddenly bounced hundreds and hundreds of emails and it had never done that before and um we were told that that particular domain had put in a new spam filter that was looking for some of the zombie email addresses and using that as a criteria. Um, there was another case where we had, We were sent two emails in one day and the second email had significantly lower open rates and we consulted with an email service provider, our emails expert who told us that those algorithms, if the first email you send in one day gets low opens than the second email, they might decide to just deliver it straight to the spam box. [00:10:27.34] spk_1:
Oh man. [00:10:28.52] spk_2:
So those were a couple of specific instances where we saw a problem. [00:10:33.84] spk_1:
Let’s get to, it goes, oh God, I’m sorry, I don’t want to interrupt you more. If you have more to explain how we know we have problems, please. [00:10:51.64] spk_2:
Sure. So the last one is kind of counterintuitive, but if you have a really low unsubscribed rate, then that could be a sign that you have people that aren’t engaging. Um They could just be like these zombie email address is um an abandoned email address. They’re not opening. They’re not clicking, they’re not unsubscribing. It’s just like they’re not there anymore. [00:11:09.74] spk_1:
So occasional unsubscribed are not so bad. [00:11:28.64] spk_2:
Exactly. And actually we have found that the more engaged your email list is um are unsubscribe. Subscribes have actually gone up since our email list got more engaged. Now you don’t want to go crazy with that, obviously. [00:11:31.52] spk_1:
Right. Yeah. We’re down to zero. Were so highly engaged that we have nobody left on our list. [00:11:36.75] spk_2:
Right? No, [00:11:44.54] spk_1:
That’s not right. It’s like bringing your pulse 20. I’m something in such good health, but my pulse is only is down to zero. Right? All right. All right. You mentioned this a couple times now, zombies. Let’s let’s define the zombies and ghosts, please. [00:12:35.14] spk_2:
Sure. Um, so the names for the folks who aren’t engaging with your email, um, the first is zombies. And those are folks who did sign up for your email at one point. They may have been opening and clicking, but they haven’t for some long period of time. And how long sort of depends on your organization. Um, some folks say for more than six months. Some people say for more than a year. Um, some people say for more than 90 days, it depends on what your organizations. Um, goals are and what your programs are like. Um, Ghosts are people who subscribed and never opened or clicked not once. [00:12:53.74] spk_1:
What’s the what’s the thinking behind that? They they they why Why would they have done that? [00:13:42.24] spk_2:
That’s a really good question. Um, Some of them may be people who, um, so for instance, we have a volunteer program. Um, Maybe they have an email address that they always use when they’re signing up to volunteer, but then they only read the emails about that volunteering experience, you know, like the auto generated things, but they never read the book emails that you send as part of an email campaign. They just don’t do that. Um, Other folks may have an email address that they’ve set up. Like if they take action on an action alert, they contact their congressmen and they set up a special email address that they never open. [00:13:49.84] spk_1:
Okay. Right. They gave your they gave you a right an address that they don’t use just to satisfy you that they gave you some address because you you needed, they needed something. They had to give you something. So they gave you one they don’t look at [00:14:03.74] spk_2:
exactly. [00:14:13.64] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. All right. Uh, how do we, how do we improve? I mean, I guess, I mean at the simplest level is we should have decent content, Right? And it should be segmented to folks. So we were hitting their priorities and their interests [00:15:58.34] spk_2:
absolutely. Um, you know, you want to be giving people what they think they signed up for, um, getting them with, um, or sending them stuff that they’re interested in. Um, another important thing is to segment your list based on their level of engagement. So what that looks like is maybe for your newest constituents, you’re sending them an email welcome series that’s targeting whatever you know about them at that point. So that is information that is introducing them to your brand and your mission and letting them know how they can get involved. Um, for folks who are new, who’ve been through that welcome stories for people who are really engaging with your email. Those folks, you probably want to have more frequent communication with and be giving them regular information about how they can get involved, What’s new, how their involvement is making a difference, all those sorts of things. And then if they get to a point where they haven’t interacted with your email for a while, um, you might want to put them on what we call an email diet where you’re not sending them quite as much. You’re curating it a little bit more. Again, still trying to target their interests. And then if they still don’t open, you might want to give them a little bit of a break and then send them what’s called a reengagement series. Um, which probably everybody has gotten some of these from somebody in the past. This is the, hey, we haven’t heard from you in awhile. Do you still want to be on our email list? [00:16:16.74] spk_1:
That sounds like rehab like they went from surgery to a rehab center? [00:16:24.14] spk_2:
Yeah, it’s, um, it’s [00:16:26.06] spk_1:
trying to rehabilitate them and then either they go, they improve or they get worse and you know, maybe they need to move from rehab to, uh, to assisted living. Or maybe they could go rehab back home, which is they get more engaged while while they’re in the rehab center [00:16:44.74] spk_2:
or you could look at it more as relationship counseling because it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s something wrong with them. It’s about the relationship that you two have together. Maybe it’s not a good fit. [00:17:03.54] spk_1:
Okay, that’s true. Yeah. All right. All right, interesting metaphors. Okay. Um, what other ideas? I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna, I don’t want to shortchange nonprofit radio listeners other ideas for improving engagement. [00:18:27.64] spk_2:
Um, so again, I think all the things that you’ve talked about, as far as, you know, giving them relevant content, um, targeting by interest, targeting, by engagement segment. Um, one thing I wanted to get back to a little bit was the idea of these zombie email addresses. Um, this is a little bit different from how they’re interacting with your email. This is a specific kind of email address, which is somebody who had an email account and maybe subscribe to your emails, but then they moved on. Maybe they left to change schools left to change jobs, change their personal email address. If that old email account wasn’t closed, it’s called the zombie email address and everything that that person signed up for. All those emails are still going to their box. Um, so that is an example of maybe somebody who has moved on from the relationship. Yeah. Uh huh. Taken back to your metaphors. [00:18:46.54] spk_1:
Okay. And that’s right. So that’s another that’s another form of zombie. Okay. That could be a detrimental one. I mean if the organization where they work, let’s say somebody changes jobs where they worked as sloppy and they don’t close that account. All the all the messages indefinitely, you’re going to this inactive box. That can hurt you. [00:18:54.14] spk_2:
Yes. That can you as a sender. Um And it can also hurt that company because somebody a spammer could take over that email address and do nefarious things with it, [00:19:42.24] spk_1:
Right? It’s sloppy. Sloppy practice. So All right. So there’s there’s a reason again to segment by engagement as you were as you were explaining, because if they run engaged for however long it takes to, you know, whatever you set your threshold at. You wanna you wanna ask if they still want to be party to this relationship or not? Yeah. Alright. Um Are there places where we can uh identify benchmarks? So we know like for our mission type or for our organization size or for our list size or however however they might be identified. We can benchmark against to know if we’re doing well or doing poorly. [00:20:31.04] spk_2:
Um There are some um So one of them that we use is the m in our benchmarks and they do a digital Benchmarking for non profits every year in association with and 10 the nonprofit technology network. And they will have information about average open click action and unsubscribed rates for different types of emails. Um Like an e newsletter versus fundraising email versus um an action alert. Um And they’ll look at that for also different sized lists. Um It’s a very useful tool and that’s actually where we saw that our unsubscribed were very low compared to industry benchmarks. And that’s one of the things that got us thinking. [00:20:42.84] spk_1:
All right, Where do we find this? Uh, M in our report? [00:20:46.64] spk_2:
So you can find this one? [00:20:54.74] spk_1:
Is it M and R. Or M. N. R. The letter N. M. [00:20:56.22] spk_2:
Plus are you can find [00:20:58.17] spk_1:
it and plus R. [00:21:03.64] spk_2:
M like mr R benchmarks dot com. [00:21:15.14] spk_1:
So M. R benchmarks dot com. Like mike Romeo benchmarks dot com. Okay. Yes. That’s something free that the listeners can use. [00:21:18.34] spk_2:
Yes. [00:21:20.94] spk_1:
Wonderful. Okay, Judy. I have to admonish you. That 10 is no longer, they don’t want to be called the nonprofit technology network anymore. [00:21:27.14] spk_2:
Oh, I’m sorry. I missed the memo. [00:21:50.64] spk_1:
That’s okay. Yeah. Uh, Amy sample award is a regular contributor on the show. And um, I don’t know, a year or maybe 18 months ago, they did a very soft little rebrand. They went the way of, uh, you know, automobile association of America. That doesn’t want to be that anymore. They just triple a and uh, the american Association of Retired Persons AARP. They just want to be a R. P. No more american association. So 10 went that way. [00:21:59.94] spk_2:
Well, thank you for the correction. I [00:22:17.34] spk_1:
appreciate it. You know, um, it would mean a lot to amy sample word. If I, if I didn’t, if I didn’t mention it to you, she, she might be disappointed in me. So that’s why I’m doing it. She holds me to high standards when it comes to using their name. Um, All right. What else do we have? We still have a couple minutes left. If, if there’s something we haven’t covered or you want to go into more detail on anything. [00:22:27.94] spk_2:
Um, there is one other thing that I think is really interesting when you’re working on building your email [00:22:36.11] spk_1:
list [00:23:25.34] spk_2:
and that is to think about where your subscribers are coming from. And if you have the capacity to do so look at the engagement that you’re getting from those different sources, like if you have a volunteer program or if you’re doing digital advertising or if you’re having action alerts and people are signing up for your email list when they contact their congressmen or you’re paying to post petitions on a place like care too. Um, how are all those different people performing, who are coming from those different sources? And that can be really useful to look at their email engagement and especially their conversions to see how is your investment of time and money paying off? [00:23:57.24] spk_1:
Yeah. What’s the quality of those sources as referral sources? Absolutely. It might be crummy as my technical term again. Um, Okay. Yes. Very good. I like your advice to about segmenting by engagement. I’ve never heard that, but it makes a lot of sense related to this. Especially so All right. How about we leave it there judy sound. Okay. [00:23:59.75] spk_2:
Sounds good. [00:28:34.34] spk_1:
Alright. She’s judy freed senior marketing manager at alliance for the Great Lakes. Thank you very much, judy. Thank you. My pleasure. And thanks to all of you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc 2021 nonprofit technology conference. So you’re allowed to say, you’re allowed to say NtC is a nonprofit technology conference. You’re just not allowed to say in 10 is a nonprofit technology network anymore. That’s all. And we’re sponsored at 21 Ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. You’ve been hearing a lot about them this week and in previous weeks, what they’re ubiquitous, what can we say? They’re, they’re generous sponsors, the ambitious biden agenda. Anything in their impact, your work, anything in there you’d like to be heard on. I want to be a trusted source, improve your chances of an op ed getting published. We’d like to get quoted turn to has the relationships to make these happen because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O. It’s time for Tony’s take two. It’s okay to be barren when I was writing this week’s Insider alert. Well, the last weeks now, last week’s Insider alert, I just didn’t have anything pithy or newsworthy. Uh, I’m sure, I mean, there’s always seems like there’s always something newsworthy, but I just wasn’t, I wasn’t feeling it. I was feeling, uh, baron of, of something worth putting into the intro to the Insider alert, bereft, bereft of something that merits being there. So I just said that I just said, I’m feeling Baron today, like, you know, I don’t have any, I don’t have anything I think you’ll be interested in, so I’m just gonna introduce this week’s show and in the moment that felt kind of awkward, but that was how I felt and on reflection. Now, the next day, the day after I do the Insider alerts on thursday and I typically record the shows or put the shows together on, on Fridays. So, you know, with, with days perspective, it’s not so bad to occasionally be barren or bereft of ideas. Uh you know, uh as long as I think as long as it’s not chronic, um you know, just there’s gonna be times when you’re not feeling so creative uh in my, in my words, it was so pithy, I was lacking pitch. That was sands. Piff, nope. If no pith today, um I wasn’t pissed about having no pith and I’m still not pissed about having no pith. So like I’m saying, so with some perspective, you know, it’s going to happen. So don’t beat yourself up. I didn’t in the moment and I’m not now either. So don’t do it to yourself. There are gonna be those days, hours, days, maybe even a week. You know, you’re just, you’re not, you don’t feel your mojo. That’s okay. That’s okay. You’ll overcome it. You’re, you know, analogize yourself like, you know, to an artist or a writer. You know, they get blocks, You’re doing creative work. You can get blocked up. It’s okay. It’s okay. That is Tony’s take two. I wish I I kind of wish I had some remedies for you. I don’t the guys right. The males are supposed to have solutions. Uh, not, I don’t know if I’m an alpha male, I don’t think I am, but even, uh, even beta males are, you know, the guys are wired to have solutions. I don’t have any solutions. I’m just saying it’s okay. Mm And that truly is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for nonprofit radio here is improve your email fundraising. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 ntc, the 2021 nonprofit technology conference were sponsored at 21 Ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o With me now is Bonnie huff. She’s a fundraising coach and consultant under banyan non profit strategy. Welcome body. [00:28:35.74] spk_0:
Thanks for having me today. tony [00:28:47.34] spk_1:
pleasure. Pleasure to have you on nonprofit radio Your topic is simple changes to your email communications that raise more money. So we’re trying to make email fundraising more effective. [00:28:51.14] spk_0:
The most important thing from the last year. Right. The only way we’ve been able to get in front of people pretty much [00:29:10.24] spk_1:
Yeah, well there’s still direct mail, but direct mail has its place, but email certainly picked up a lot of slack. We could not do in 2020. All right. So, um, where would you like to start? Where should, where should we start with bringing this to folks? [00:30:18.84] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think what may make sense is kind of how I started with, um, session was my experience in this eye have always before, my time as a consultant and a coach have worked in small nonprofit teams. And email was one of the many things that I did under my umbrella of fundraising and communications. And, and so while this session is a lot is about fundraising through email, it’s really, it’s core about how do you engage and excite people? How do you get them engaged and excited for what you’re sending and receiving? Um, because I think especially in small teams, you know, emails, it kind of becomes this side the side thing. Right. It’s, it’s a lot of times, it’s no one person’s focus. Um, we send out one email newsletter a month and it’s just kind of a brain dump of all of the great stuff that’s been going on, but it may not be set up in a way that is, um, as engaging as it can be to the audience. And so that’s really the goal of, of what I was talking with the participants at NtC [00:30:26.79] spk_1:
about, we need to be more sophisticated, more deliberate. [00:30:31.23] spk_0:
Yeah. And [00:30:32.43] spk_1:
and that our [00:30:52.04] spk_0:
email. Yeah. And, and how do you as a small team especially make it more sustainable for you? So rather than sending it all out in one dump as as one email a month. Can you trickle that information out and kind of hone in on specific stories each time? And really thinking about how do you work to your advantage the way that you’re using your email communications rather than just sticking in this one box that for whatever reason is kind of the standard that most non profits go to with that monthly newsletter. [00:31:18.54] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. So we need to add some, some structure to this and schedule. So we have a communications plan. Hopefully marketing plan as a part of that. You want to see an email plan? [00:31:53.74] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it’s going to be different for every organization. Right. Because I think about, you know, animal welfare organizations a lot of times they have great content of numerous stories of adoptable pets and pictures and things like that. So they may be at a place where they want to send email once a week so that those stories and those pictures are getting in the inbox of the individuals that are on their list. But for another organization, it may be really difficult to capture that content. And so they may want to structure it so that they’re sending every once a month. But it’s only one client story every month or something like that. And it’s really, it’s going beyond some sort of ready made content calendar and thinking, what is the natural cadence of the work we do and how do we use email to really highlight that to the people that were talking to? [00:32:15.34] spk_1:
I mean if you take that example of animal welfare, uh, it’s a humane society or something that can be daily emails. Yes. Yeah. Our new, our new visitors are new residents or something right for folks who want to be on the front line of adoption. [00:33:18.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And and kind of getting it that, you know, the idea of new visitors are new new people that are signing on to your cause. Another thing that I shared in the session that I think is so important and so underutilized for nonprofits as a whole, is a welcome email. Um, and that is just an automated email that invites the person and welcomes them to your community. Thanks them for engaging with you. And my favorite strategy with welcome emails is to ask the question to your new email subscribers. So it may be how did you find us? But it could be why are you engaged in our mission? What is it about our mission that excites you? So you’re building that two way communication from the get go. And it’s becoming more of a a conversation rather than that one way relationship of here’s our newsletter. But please don’t email us back because we can’t handle it. Right? [00:33:45.24] spk_1:
Yeah. A conversation now. I mean for like a mid sized organization. Can that become a little too burdensome to manage all that communication? I’m trying to put people off. I mean if the small organization and you think you’re gonna get back like four or five emails a day, sure its matter that’s manageable. But suppose you think might get you might get 100 a day [00:34:24.94] spk_0:
I think. I think the so my my focus is working with small community organizations and so there is that side of it. But I also think, um, you know, only a tiny number of people are going to respond. And so a lot of, about a lot of what works with email, fundraising is also just testing and tweaking. Put it out there for a week and if you are totally overwhelmed, you know, or, or a day depending on how big you are, but if you’re bigger, you also may have more staff capacity to, you know, respond to those things. Um, but I’m always, you know, pushing my clients to test and, and, and see what feels authentic and is working to engage people. [00:34:43.94] spk_1:
There is an important, um, I’m gonna call an axiom mayor that when you invite people to reply, very few are going to, [00:34:45.47] spk_0:
I [00:35:18.54] spk_1:
do plan to giving fundraising and lots of times clients are reluctant to put a phone number on a piece or in a letter And I say nobody’s gonna call, but you have to make yourself available. I could probably count on two hands the number of phone calls that people have gotten about, will’s mailings that I’ve done over the past 15 years or something. People don’t call. You know, you make the invitation, but so don’t be put off by. We’re going to be overwhelmed. My God, we’re not like you’re saying tested, but the object of being overwhelmed are are small [00:35:21.48] spk_0:
and just the act of putting that question out there and showing people that there is another human on the other side of these [00:35:28.44] spk_1:
emails [00:35:39.14] spk_0:
is so big in building that trust in that report and the credibility with your potential donors and your email audience. Even if they don’t respond, it’s just one of those subconscious things that they connect the dots that, you know, I’m not talking to just a random boat on the Internet. It’s the real people that are there doing the work [00:36:00.73] spk_1:
so consistent with that. Um, how do you feel about, I suppose, you know, the reply email addresses development at whatever welfare, uh, animal welfare versus, versus a person versus a person. [00:36:48.43] spk_0:
You know, I think, um, in this kind of gets to the staff capacity thing, you can use development at or info at or whatever, but maybe try putting a footer that says, this is monitored by our whole development team. You may hear back from multiple individuals, but we’re all here, you know, ready to respond. Um, I think that it can be really helpful so that like you said, if you are inundated with things, there are multiple team members kind of monitoring that address. But again, it’s just that, that transparency, um, with donors, they understand that, you know, most of the time, most donors understand we are understaffed and, and have a lot of stuff on our plates. So if you explain to them why you’re using a less personal email address, i in my experience, most people are totally fine with that. [00:37:32.33] spk_1:
And maybe even for the test, it might be what you want to do your development or info and see what happens absolutely free a month back. You know, one person, a person can handle that. Right? Exactly. So do you want to see like a six month schedule calendar of well with, with flexibility because events might change. News might break. That’s relevant to your nonprofits work or whatever. But you want to see a long term midterm, midterm long. Uh, I think [00:38:06.32] spk_0:
planning six months to a year is good because then you are connecting the dots between your overall fundraising development plan, your social media plan your events plan so that all of those things are talking to each other. But like you said, with the ability to, you know, throw it all up in the air if say a covid happens and and jump on those opportunities where they fit um, for your organization. I do think planning is super important. I think it’s planning with that human element in it. That is where people see real success in real real response rates. [00:38:16.72] spk_1:
You like to see one person responsible for the email communications. [00:38:48.62] spk_0:
I think it depends on the organization. I think, you know, at smaller organizations, everybody is going to have a hand in gathering the pictures, gathering the content, whatever it might be. But it does help to have a single person developed the email, you know, get it across the finish line and and pull it all together so there needs to be, there needs to be a lead, but again, you know, totally dependent on the organization, how it works with connecting with different departments and and who who should be offering what content um [00:38:59.22] spk_1:
how do you feel about embedding video into your emails for for better engagement? [00:40:44.91] spk_0:
Um video can be really powerful. It also, you know, it can affect the load time of an email and if it takes too long to load, people may just get bored and you know, just delete it. Um But what can also work is, you know, embedding the video on your website and kind of doing a screenshot of the video so that you and and hyping it that way so that people are then bounce into your website. Um uh I think the the only thing with email is the more you have in there, the harder it can be to deliver and load on people’s sites and we are on people’s computers and we only have you know a split second of attention before if they do open before they they may lose interest so that it’s a balancing act. Um I do think one thing to talk to think about for organizations that are considering what to include and how to include it. One thing that I always offer is consider what’s above the fold. Um but in terms of email that means what are they gonna see before they ever scroll? So there is um you know both on mobile and desktop, take time to look at that and see is your main link to your call to action in that top part of your email um and make sure the stuff with the most impact that you want, the most people to see and interact with is in that section because that is where most, most people aren’t going to scroll past down to the bottom, especially when you get to those sections, that same message clipped and you have to click through to an entirely different web page, you know, So I I do always um suggest taking time to think about what is above the fold in that, in that way [00:41:04.51] spk_1:
you have other ideas about content. [00:42:02.50] spk_0:
Um I think, you know, well, one thing that I did want to share, I have made all of my materials from the session available on my site that people can download for free. Um and I have an entire guide of, well, a two page guide of my top copy tips for email fundraising um along with some uh an example welcome sequence email. So I wanted to share that link with everybody in case you’re interested. It is Banyan non profit strategy dot com slash free resources. And there’s a button there right at the top that says download the 21 NTC materials so people can get that directly from there. Um, I think, you know, with a couple of minutes left, I think the one thing that we have good, good, good, the other big thing that we do, [00:42:03.65] spk_1:
Maybe it feels like this is dragging for, you know, no, feels like it’s been 35, 40 minutes or so. It’s only been about [00:42:11.11] spk_0:
tony I just know that I can talk and talk and it just, [00:42:21.40] spk_1:
I can manage you, but it’s not hope, it’s not feeling like it’s been an hour. No, [00:44:05.49] spk_0:
no. The other major topic that I touched on was, you know, once you have this engaged audience that is opening your emails and they are donating because you’ve kind of made these copy changes. How do you grow your list? Because that is one thing that especially with small organizations, if you still only have a couple 100 people on that, you know, they give, but the you’re still wanting to get your audience bigger, right? That’s that’s the goal. Um, and one thing that I shared with the participants that really seemed to connect with them was how can you think through an opportunity for an opt in or an incentive for your organization that also connects with your mission? Um, and so options are obviously very well known in the marketing world, which is just a free downloadable resource in exchange for your email address. Um, and I think far too few nonprofit organizations use this as a, as a tool to get people that are clearly and naturally engaged and connected to your cause. Um so, you know, an example could be going along with the animal welfare organization, um would be, you know, a list of low cost veterinary services in your area or um, you know, a health center, a health clinic may offer a three day meal plan or healthy cooking challenge for people that may have just gotten a diabetes diagnosis or something along those lines. So you were, you know, simultaneously you’re growing your list, but you’re also um fulfilling that education component of your mission. Um and and kind of kind of meeting those two needs in the middle. [00:44:18.59] spk_1:
It doesn’t have to be a heavy lift. No, it doesn’t have to be a 12 page white paper. [00:44:51.29] spk_0:
And and so many organizations already have this in their files somewhere that they’re sharing with their clients and their partners and things like that. And all it is is putting it up on the website and offering it as a free download. Um, and, and so I think that’s one thing that, you know, nonprofits can definitely learn from, from the digital marketers of the world, um, and kind of think through how they can connect the dots in that way to grow their audience. [00:45:37.89] spk_1:
Can I have a little caveat to that peccadillo of mine is when I’m offered something like that and I do it and then they asked me for too much information that that’s mandatory. I mean, I don’t mind, I don’t mind first name, I don’t even mind last name. I know some people object to last name, but first name for me person, first name, last name, email. I’ll give you the, yeah, I’ve been asked for phone number, not opting in for texts and calls. I’m, I’m just, I’ll give you my email. But I’ve heard for other folks a mandatory should be like first name and email. If you know you’re going to use the first name, you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna personalize your emails and just ask for an email address. Yeah. Zip code, phone number, you know, [00:45:42.08] spk_0:
security number, [00:45:43.42] spk_1:
just blood type, you [00:45:45.63] spk_0:
know, mission [00:45:47.39] spk_1:
status, you know, whatever, whatever intrusive thing of the day, you know, keep that to a minimum and what make sure you’re going to use what you ask [00:46:37.88] spk_0:
for. I always suggest. I mean the more you ask for, the fewer people are going to sign up. So I always say name and email and that way you do have their names. Should you ever want to use it and personalize it because personalization does help. Um especially if it’s a, you know, a personalized thank you acknowledgement. Then you’re you’re a step further. Um, but I always say start with name and email because all you’re trying to do is build that relationship with people and kind of start a conversation. And, and from there you can ask for the phone number, ask for all of those, you know, more detailed things that you may not need right off the bat. [00:46:44.48] spk_1:
You have other ideas around audience growth. So that that’s a that’s a that’s a great one. They opt in for some content. [00:48:13.67] spk_0:
The other one that I always offer because it’s so simple, but it’s so I see it a lot, especially with the smaller organizations is, um, how easy is it for you to go on your website and find your newsletter? Sign up because so many organizations, it’ll be down at the bottom or you know, I’ve had clients where it’s hidden on three different pages, but not on the home page. And, and so the simpler you can make it for people to find ways to connect with your email, um, the better. And so so taking some time to go to your website as if you were a first timer and never visited. It’s also helpful for just helping people to helping to understand if you are communicating your mission and all of that good stuff. But if someone shows up to your website for the first time, will they know what you do? Will they know how to sign up to stay engaged with you both email and social media? And do you make it easy to do that? So are you only asking for the bare minimum of, you know, name and email and things like that? So kind of putting that beginners or you know, fresh eyes lens on looking at your own site because we can all be so, you know, in the weeds of it in the day to day that it can be hard. It can be easy to overlook that, you know, it’s actually just buried somewhere. And so no one ever seeing it. [00:48:20.87] spk_1:
All right. Um, we still got to spend another few minutes together. [00:48:23.54] spk_0:
Yeah. Let me trying to think of [00:48:27.49] spk_1:
what about, well, we kind of glossed over email content because you said you have the free resource. Yeah. What other, what other content ideas can we talk [00:51:00.76] spk_0:
about? Yes. So I think the, you know, a couple of things with, with content. Um, I’m switching gears here. I think the biggest, you know, big picture content that kind of goes back to the planning and the calendar. Um, is I use an 80 20 rule. So 80% of the emails you send should be mission focused and 20% should be fundraising focused. That’s obviously a guideline. Um, it’s not a hard and fast rule, but the idea being that people are often not going to open all of your emails. And so even if they open half of your emails at that point, usually they are still going to see just as much or more mission content so that when they do open the fundraising content, they are, you know, primed and ready and and understand why they’re being asked. So that’s, that’s one tip. I have big picture. Um, in terms of, you know, in an email itself, what what are things that people should look out for? Um, this is, is widely used in all fundraising copy. But the number of times people are, your organization is saying you versus we is really important. And so rather than saying our organization achieved X, Y Z, it really needs to connect the potential donor to that transformation. So your support made it possible for blank to happen. Um, and, and the reason behind that is subconsciously when, when we’re reading our organization achieved blank, we’re thinking well, because you know, they’re already doing such great work. So maybe I don’t need to give my gift today, or maybe I don’t need to support them in this way at this time. So making it so that the donor and their support is making the impact of, um, is making the impact happen is really important in terms of actual email content. And I’m trying to pull up that, uh, okay. The all [00:51:01.68] spk_1:
right, well, we don’t have to talk about content necessarily. Folks can get to get the resource anything. Um, but we could leave it there, body. [00:51:45.06] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think um the biggest thing that for me and, and in my experience as someone who kind of got, who jumped into email with with not much uh, not much experience way back. When is the more authentic and transparent you can be and this goes for any, you know, connections and communications with donors or our audience, but the more authentic and transparent you can be the better and, and you know, finding ways to build that human connection beyond. Um just that, that newsletter model that we’ve all kind of always done is is a really useful thing to think through for your organization. [00:52:11.85] spk_1:
All right, Bonnie huff fundraising coaching consultant. The company is Banyan non profit strategy. You can get all those good resources resources at Banyan non profit strategy dot com slash free resources. Aptly named the aptly named U R. L. You can make it any simpler. Alright, thank you very much Bonnie. [00:52:17.13] spk_0:
Thank you. tony [00:53:16.45] spk_1:
my pleasure. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21. Ntc where were sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot c o next week we’re all about online accessibility. If you missed any part of this week’s show where we were all about email improvement, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. You don’t really need me to call out that uh today’s theme right, this week’s theme and you you pick that up you did you grasp that? I know you did responsive by turn to communications. Pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott. Stein, mm hmm. Thank you for that information scotty Do with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great.
