Category Archives: Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio

Nonprofit Radio for January 18, 2019: Donor Centric

I love our sponsors!

Do you want to find more prospects & raise more money? Pursuant is a full-service fundraising agency, leveraging data & technology.

WegnerCPAs. Guiding you. Beyond the numbers.

Credit & debit card processing by telos. Payment processing is now passive revenue for your org.

Fundraising doesn’t have to be hard. Txt2Give makes it easy to receive donations using simple text messages.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Listen Live or Archive:

My Guest:

Curtis Bingham: Donor Centric
To keep your donors, think and act like successful private sector companies. Curtis Bingham is founder of the Chief Customer Officer Council and a multi-award winning customer success strategist, conveying corporate methods to nonprofits.



Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

Nonprofit Radio for January 11, 2019: Zombie Loyalists

I love our sponsors!

Do you want to find more prospects & raise more money? Pursuant is a full-service fundraising agency, leveraging data & technology.

WegnerCPAs. Guiding you. Beyond the numbers.

Credit & debit card processing by telos. Payment processing is now passive revenue for your org.

Fundraising doesn’t have to be hard. Txt2Give makes it easy to receive donations using simple text messages.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Listen Live or Archive:

My Guest:

Peter Shankman

Peter Shankman: Zombie Loyalists 
Peter Shankman is a well-known and often-quoted social media, marketing and public relations strategist. His book is “Zombie Loyalists.” He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media, marketing and PR for you. He’s got super ideas and lots of valuable stories. I like to play this each year. (Originally broadcast 12/19/14)

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

Nonprofit Radio for January 4, 2019: Stay Secure In 2019

I love our sponsors!

Do you want to find more prospects & raise more money? Pursuant is a full-service fundraising agency, leveraging data & technology.

WegnerCPAs. Guiding you. Beyond the numbers.

Credit & debit card processing by telos. Payment processing is now passive revenue for your org.

Fundraising doesn’t have to be hard. Txt2Give makes it easy to receive donations using simple text messages.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Listen Live or Archive:

My Guest:

Jordan McCarthy: Stay Secure In 2019 
Let’s resolve to keep our technology and data safe in the New Year. Jordan McCarthy will help. He’s with Tech Impact and he’s got simple, proactive measures for the short term as well as bigger long-term initiatives for your consideration. Stay safe!



Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

Nonprofit Radio for December 14, 2018: The Encouragement Show

I love our sponsors!

Do you want to find more prospects & raise more money? Pursuant is a full-service fundraising agency, leveraging data & technology.

WegnerCPAs. Guiding you. Beyond the numbers.

Credit & debit card processing by telos. Payment processing is now passive revenue for your org.

Fundraising doesn’t have to be hard. Txt2Give makes it easy to receive donations using simple text messages.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Listen Live or Archive:

My Guest:

Sarah Olivieri: The Encouragement Show
Sarah Olivieri wants you to shed fear-based decision making, scarcity mentality and reflexive negativity, in favor of confidence, abundance and an open mind. Your host has encouraging words of his own to contribute. Sarah is principal of Pivot Ground.

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

View Full Transcript


Transcript for 419_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20181214.mp3

Processed on: 2018-12-15T01:22:33.762Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2018…12…419_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20181214.mp3.718410887.json
Path to text: transcripts/2018/12/419_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20181214.txt

Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit Radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with Geren Topia if I saw that you missed today’s show. The Encouragement show Sarah Olivieri wants you to shed fear based decision making scarcity mentality and reflects of negativity in favor of confidence, abundance and an open mind. Your aptly named host has encouraging words of his own to contribute. What a surprise. No surprise. Sara is principal of Pivot Ground Tony Steak, too. Train. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash pursuant by Wagner. C. P a’s guiding you Beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com By Telus durney Credit card Processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna em a slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine My Pleasure to introduce Sarah Olivieri came down from upstate New York. She’s a non-profit digital strategist, helping Non-profits bring their mission and services to life on the Web. At Pivot Ground, she leads her team of digital experts to help clients increased capacity, deliver better programming, attract more funding and make the world a little better. In college, she studied in Spain, Tanzania and Cuba, then moved to Japan to teach English. Sarah’s company is at pivot ground dot com and she’s at pivot ground. Welcome, Sarah Olivieri. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Thank you for coming down from upstate. I love it when guests come to studio. Thank you. Always my pleasure. You’ve been abroad. You would’ve brought a good bit in your in your life. Yes, I traveled quite a bit. I studied international studies as an undergraduate. And so that took me abroad. And the University of Chicago University of Chicago led me. Tio move to Japan afterwards. Then I came back and to my home community in the Hudson Valley. Start getting involved with the local non-profit. They needed a conference organized which led to running a program which led to starting my own non-profit on. And then I went and got my graduate degree in humanistic, multicultural education. Humanistic, multicultural education. Alright, break that down to make some sense and what was what’s the non-profit thatyou started. Tell us a little about that. Your first? Sure. I started a non profit called the Open Center for Autism. It was following in. The program they had been working at was a school for kids on the Spectrum. High school on that program was shut down. And so I went and started my own program. If if the state isn’t gonna provide it or whatever, the counties that if the school is gonna provide it, I’ll do it myself. That’s right. And hope you mentioned it myself. Okay. All right. All right. Andi, what? How long were you with that organization? What? What happened? Well, kind of good and bad. You know, what happened was the need became so clear that a number of the other local public schools picked up their own programs. So we ended up not starting this school as we anticipated because the need was filled. S o. That was all right. But it was a great It was a great start to learn all the elements of not just starting a nonprofit. But when you charter school in New York State, there’s a whole bunch of extra things that need to happen on that happen when you’re a fundraiser, right? Right. And, you know, thinking about what you do that really led me to go in, like, Wow. I couldn’t find lawyers who knew about how to register a school in New York State s o. I just dove into reading the law myself, and that kind of even deepened my like the stuff isn’t so hard. No one knows how to do it. I’m just gonna dive in and figure it out, okay? And, uh, how long at pivot ground pivot ground has been since, uh, we had another incarnation that started in around two thousand five. But we’ve been in our current state about three years. Okay, you you brought along some some words of encouragement. Like so sort of some symptom and problem areas on DH words of encouragement. I thought this would be a nice wayto. This is really wrapping up the year because the next the next two shows the next two weeks, there are no shows. So this is our end of year Show so and like, end of your encouragement, looking to the future. Ah, people can be feeling overwhelmed. In this In this hectic fourth quarter, Lots of listeners may not even hear this until January, so it could be the look forward kind of show for them. Um, so what are some of the What are some of the symptoms that you hear in your practice that dahna raise your raise, your consciousness raised red flags for, you know, maybe we should be thinking a little differently. Yeah. I mean, anybody who works with Non-profits have heard these things like, we just can’t do it or we don’t have money for that, or we can’t spend on overhead. All our money has to go directly to programming. Actually, had it was part of a local group, kind of a support group for non-profit. Leaders run by front of mind Susan Ragusa. And we talked about this one day, like, scarcity, mindset. And a lot of it, I think, boils down to money. Um, and a lot of people in that room that day said, Yeah, you know, like, I don’t have a good relationship with money. And my non-profit doesn’t have a good relationship with money on guy. Think that it’s a little self identified when they really raised their hands and say, You know, we have we have issues with money. Yeah, but only in the situation where we said this is a safe space and we’re going to talk about scarcity mindset. Otherwise, I don’t hear a lot of people realizing that that that’s kind of one of the cores of the issue is the This relationship with money and resource is just I think that the people say, like, Oh, we’d better like, do it ourselves And I think the reality the worst reality is what I call D E. Why do everything yourself? Yeah, well, we can’t afford the expertise that we need. We’ll just have to learn it ourselves, which takes you away from core work and distracts you terribly down some rabbit hole that someone could come in and be so much more efficient at it. Um, so these are there’s a lot around you talk about money. There’s a lot around fund-raising, too. I just in your own personal experience, how aware of the fact that you had to raise your own money. Were you? When you started the school program? I was pretty aware my mother had actually run a school in much the same way. She just kind of fell into it and figured it out on the job. I did have some family experience, but, you know, related to the money question. I think, Ah, lot of people, you know, when they start feeling in non-profits like we don’t have enough money, the only they see have tunnel vision. They’re like fund-raising. We need to raise money. But that’s only half of the picture. Like you have to be good at spending money as well as raising money. So there’s two sides to this coin about money, and it’s not all raising money, you know, outright gifts. I mean, there there could be revenue opportunities. Yeah, so look, think strategically. You met you, whether you’re capable of producing product or service is or some form of revenue, that other non-profits or government or individuals and whatever will pay for lots of lots of non-profits have a thrift shop. That’s one way of what’s won. Simple way. Not simple that it’s one common way, I should say of raising raising revenue. But you know when we think of fund-raising, it’s not all grants and gifts from individuals. Absolutely not. Right, your revenue stream of revenue right When you’re non-profit, you’re like revenue. What’s that? But that’s that’s just your total money coming into your non-profit fit, and you want that to be somewhat diversified. And now it might sound like we’re talking about a stock portfolio, but we’re talking about your non-profit. You have to think about having some of you know, if you can charge a little for your programs you want, you may want some revenue streams that way. If you can have a donor base of donors who give small donations more regularly. Some donors who give larger domain donations some grants. Maybe there’s some government funding you can apply for. You want a mixed bag, because if one of those pieces goes away, you don’t want to go under. You wanna have a few Resource is you can pull on and the one you didn’t mention. Eyes events which we see I see sometimes a little too much. If we’re going to take our first break, though pursuing they have two. New resource is on the listener landing page. The field guide to data driven fund-raising is practical steps to achieve your fund-raising goals using data. Plus, they have incorporated case studies and demystifying the donor experience guides you through creating a donor journey, plus savvy stewardship strategies for your existing donors could check those out. Tony dahna em a slash pursuing Capital P for please. Now back to the encouragement show. So events sometimes you know, actually often to too much too much reliance on events. I think that comes from a fear of asking someone directly across their desk for a five thousand dollar gift or a fifty thousand dollar gift or whatever it’s going to be. We’d rather invite people to a big party and have them pay tickets, pay money for a ticket at a table we got, You know, you got it again. Diversify. You see Too much event. Definitely, too. I think you know, it’s natural you get into a room of people is like, What can we do with the like our hands? You know, with with an event, but events, most kinds of events that you’re probably familiar with, that non-profits air doing are the least return on investment, meaning you’re going to spend a lot of money and a ton of energy. But I have event you’re absolutely and you’re going to get a relatively small amount of money back. And when I see happens, is if when you lead with events, then you’ve used up your entire fund-raising capacity, your money, your energy. It’s all spent on those events, and you don’t have time for those activities that actually generate a lot more money. I love the example you just shared, like picking up the phone and calling them and asking for money is like super super effective and the non-profits I know who are really great at Fund-raising their executive director Nose, like a handful of twelve major donors who are interested in supporting their non-profit, doesn’t have to be twelve. It’s just an example, and when they need money, they call them up and say, Hey, we need twenty thousand dollars for this program or we’re going to have to close it or, you know, whatever the thing is that they want if they want to take a step forward. And usually when you ask people for something, they give it to you. I love to test this out, and I encourage people. Tell it out like that. Go, you know, go over to your your friend or your relative or somebody on the street and be like, Oh, hey, could I borrow your pen? They’re going to They’re going to do it. Probably They’re going to feel extremely compelled to do it on DH. It’s same thing. When you ask people for money, people are compelled to give something just because you asked. So this this kadre of close, you know, major donors. However, you define major donors based on your needs. And your work, um, is, you know, you’ve recruited them because you know that they’re committed. I mean, they’ve risen to the top. They’ve they’ve been perhaps been volunteers for you. There were people who asked, What can I do? What do your needs, They shine. You know, as you as you’re listening to this, people are probably occurring to you. Oh, yeah, like she’s she’s like that. We’re that couple. Is that you know where the So those are the people you want to continue to cultivate that they do become sort, of course, supporters of yours. So that when you have a big need, you know, those are the people you can go to when you kick off a campaign. Those are the people you talked to initially before you go public with your number so that when you do go public for your hundred thousand dollar campaign, you’ve already got forty or fifty thousand dollars or sixty thousand already committed. And now you’re just asking people to get you to the margin. You know, the other thirty or forty percent those having that kind of a kadre of donors you can go to who, you know, love your work, cultivate those people that is time very well spent and don’t only cultivate them when you need the money. You know, this is a this is a long term process of cultivation bringing people to your Yeah, I think a great way to start with That is what? What some people call the friend raiser. If you’re nervous about, start by just getting those people in the same room just for the purpose of, like having a positive interaction with them. And that’s a great way to build that relationship. I think that there’s another piece to this where a lot of people, when they think about asking people for money, they feel like they’re there feel like they’re a fraud. Or that, like the person who’s giving them money isn’t getting anything in return. You gotta you gotta cut that shit out way Don’t have. We don’t have AA affiliate AM FM stations anymore, so I’m free. I could I could do the George Carlin. You know, seven words if I if I felt like it, we’re not bound by the FCC anymore. So, yes, you’ve got to cut that out and they are getting something. They are getting really the most valuable thing that you could spend money on. They’re getting a positive feeling. They’re getting the feeling of fulfillment. How else do people spend money to get that feeling? They buy food, alcohol, drugs, people who go shopping to feel that feeling of fullness. What? I can’t think of a better way to trade in money for a feeling of doing. You know, that positive, fulfilled feeling than giving money to a non-profit. And the peace of that is, you know, I just was reading about a business book about you know, what is the most motivating thing for employees, and it’s when they feel they’re making a positive contribution. That lead that creates progress. For an outcome that they’re interested and having fun. It’s not salary. It’s a salary, no snack. It’s not exactly so. It’s the same for donors. They’re interested in the outcomes that you’re having. And when they give, they want to feel like they’re helping in that journey there. Making that step a little piece of that step now belongs to them. A little piece of that progress and that’s worth that’s worth real money to people and share it with them. Invite them in. I don’t mean just right. A right. A direct mail letter that shares a story. Yes, storytelling is important, but I’m talking about, you know, if you’re talking about major donors, bring them in, let them see the impact of your work. How can you show it off if you haven’t figured that out yet? Brainstorm with your staff. Brainstorm with your board. How can you show off the impact that you do? There are ways If you can’t bring people to it, you can video it and present it to them. Uh, you can prove your impact. Do it. That’s how you know that. That’s how they’re going to get the positive feeling that you’re talking about, right? That’s what they’re buying their buying. Something from you. You’re not there. Not just giving you money. I think another piece to this is I remember this one in my early days working at a non-profit cause I know I’ve never had a corporate job on DH. And for a moment, I felt well, thank you for money. I would be a terrible employee. I vacation request forms, Please. Can I have the week between Christmas and New Year’s off? Oh, please. Oh, please. What? Are you kidding me? I just take it and I can’t. I can’t. I would be a terrible employee. I believe the interview. I won’t even show up. I show up late because I Because I don’t care. You know, I’d be an awful employees. I would never even get hired. Yeah. What do you make? The second interview got bounced. I won’t even make the full interview. I’d like I probably walk out. What? You kidding me? I don’t need this shit. Why am I even here? I made a big mistake. I’m sorry. I’m getting out. I won’t even make it through the first e here yet, so yeah, So you know when that came in those early on, I was like, This person makes a high salary, like theirjob is making money in some way. That’s why they have their job, and my job, like the purpose of my job is not to make money. I might be making a salary at my non-profit, but ultimately my purpose is to do good. And so somehow I felt like initially that that the person who is giving me money knew something about money that I didn’t and it felt like the scales were because they have it because they have it on and I need it more than we have, right? So they’re smarter about exactly have your about money than I am, and we are right. But now I know better, and I want non-profits to know better, too. What you’re doing is important, and it’s worth money and and you’re savvy because you’re getting people to give you money in exchange for a valuable experience. You know just a CZ much about money, if not more than for-profit businesses. And in fact, I dive a lot into business. Operations for Non-profits and Non-profits are more complicated than for-profit because you always have to target customer groups, even if you’re you know, even if you’re a teeny non-profit, you have the people who donate and give you money. And then you have the people you serve or the impact you’re trying to make and the people who are going to help make that happen. And so by that very nature, by having you always have to audience Ah for-profit company that small can have just one audience, the people who want to buy their product or service. So it’s it’s more simple in that nature to be a for-profit goodcompany before you have shareholders, right so on. But you know, as a board, as if as a small non-profit you have aboard. So that’s like having shareholders when you’re just a teeny cos. True enough. I’m not a financial stake, but yeah, but absolutely. But there’s certainly commitment, right? Commitment, opinions, human relationships. So be proud of yourself. If you’re running an non-profit, you already probably know a lot more than many for-profit business. You’ve got your three constituencies thie service you’re doing whether it’s two people or animals or the environment, there’s that’s considered outta constituents. Your community and your donors and your board. Absolutely. Right now and then, if you have a staff, you know, whenever there’s relationships involved, I like people think about like, imagine you know, you’ve got one person in the room that’s no big deal. You got two people in the room. You think you just doubled. But you actually tripled in complexity because you have two people and hopes you have the relationship between those two people at a third person to the room. You’re not three times bigger than you were when you were one person, you know, have three people, plus the relationships between each two of those people. And when all three of the people are in the room in your mind and now it’s nine, right, Zack, growing exponentially. Which person you add to any kind of dynamic, whether it’s your board, your staff, the people you’re working with you now are exponentially increasing in complex ity on. I think that a lot of non-profits as they start to grow there, like this spaghetti mess starts to begin. And that’s why Because you didn’t expect that you were growing exponentially in all these relationships. Right? It takes people off guard. Doesn’t it often reflect itself in the board? Because as the especially in early phases, as the board is growing, we need more expertise. You know, etcetera. I see it in the board, but I see in the way staff and departments are organized more as you grow and you start adding programs. Sometimes it’s like you might add a program and you might suitable who in our non-profit, like, has capacity to, like run this new programme and you just throw it in. And then often with my clients, who tend to be a little bigger, they they have these kinds of organizational structures that don’t make sense like that. They don’t work efficiently because they just started throwing things in on DH. They didn’t think like very carefully about how exactly should we organize it? We should just They just threw it in where they could. And then we go through a process of kind of reorganizing. So they get so much time back in their day, Are they going to fill it up again with amazing work delivering their mission? Absolutely. But at least then it’s It’s faster progress towards their mission. Yeah, it’s a more deliberate rather than just let’s throw it in, you know, foisted on somebody who they can learn they can train up. That’s the that’s the kind of you know, Yeah, that goes back to the scarcity mentality. We can’t afford the expertise that we need to help us develop this program. We’ll figure it out on our own. Yeah, and I want I want people to stop, Stop thinking that way because there’s two things that I think if you had, if I had like two dollars left in my pocket, I would buy one of two things or both of these things access to expert advice, not even like how you know if you can’t get help doing it, if you don’t have money for the tool getting an expert to tell you which way to go, I think, is like, one of the most valuable ways because they’re going to see things that you don’t. You’re in your own bubble. Even if you were that expert, you wouldn’t be able to see it for yourself. And once they point you in where your next step is, you have a step to take forward the other thing these days that I think people who are really strapped for money will get a huge return off of is investing in some automation. So we have, you know, computers and the Internet can take off a lot of the busy work that your staff might be doing right now. Or if you’re a solo, you know, solo operation. They’re things that you’re doing right now that the computer could start doing for you and free you up to take some real positive growth. Steps to resource is come off the top of my head in that vein non-profit Technology network, which helps, which helps non-profits used technology smarter so that they can focus more on mission. Listeners know Amy Sample Ward are regular social media contributor every month. She’s the CEO of and ten non-profit technology network and ten Dot or GE, and the other one is idealware idealware dot org’s ah, they They are essentially the consumer reports of technology for non-profits. They don’t accept grants or GIF ts off of technology, but they evaluated and they evaluated objectively. The CEO Karen Graham has been on the show. I think she’s been on twice, just really loved when I was an object strenuously, but I don’t think she loves when I make the analogy between idealware and Consumer Reports. But to me, it it works. So those are two excellent resources that are agnostic, you know that They care about platforms. They’re trying to help you in ten and on idealware. Yeah. And you shouldn’t care about platforms. The biggest thing, you know, I work a lot in technology, and I talk about automation and digital strategies for people and the people. They always come like, what tools should I use? And that is the very last question you ask. First you ask, what problem? And I’m trying just trying to do with it, right? Exactly. And if it’s we’re talking about automation. You need to have a process in place of how you do something. So if if it’s not something you repeat and if you don’t haven’t written down how it goes on like what the process is, then you’re not ready to automate. But, you know, and automation can get, like, really complex. It takes like a bit of like mind shifting to think about automation. But people should start simple with automation, and I often like to just remind people that, like there’s elements of your email that can probably already be automated and say Pierre, which is one of the most common tools for connecting things it can actually automate without connecting to ass. I got I got connected to Zippy or some other from someone else do it just this week gdpr you create zaps and and it links like, Aah! Sales force with your with your outlook, right? And actually, Khun, do some automation is just with one app. So, like, if you if I use it. Teo, you know, if you receive an email with a certain subject, it can then, you know, send a reminder to somebody else. Sorry, it’s very company. We just think the tax that it can automate yes between thousands of it. Very good guts, but they’ve got partnerships with that. You can start simple. Lt’s a Piers has a free level, but for Non-profits, you can get their pro level for free if you put their logo on your website. Oh, yeah, so it’s You can really do a lot with Napier. It’s what a lot of the automation people kind of use at some point to connect things, even if they’re using more advanced tools. So I think that’s a great starting step for people. Symptoms of this. If you if you can use automation, I think of If you’re if you find yourself entering the same data in multiple places, doing a lot of copying and pasting routinely. Yeah, there’s a good chance that that could be automated. Sarah, you mentioned email so there are. There are lots of email tasks that could be automated. What you’re following up with people is huge. If you set appointments or need to remind people to do things, automation is great. For that, you can create a Siri’s of emails that remind people to do something on and for non-profits you, especially if you’re a human service non-profit. You can use automation to help deliver some of your programming programs. If you teach a course in your in your organization, you could turn it into an online course. You could make it what we call in Evergreen Online course, which means that it’s like video. The content is written, content and video that as soon as somebody signs up for the course they can, then access the material, so that’s one great way. And parenthetically, is a revenue possibility. There absolutely will be. So think about it. You could charge for your course. You could have, you know, get a donor to commit to like a matching sponsorship. Everybody who enrolls in the course they’ll make a certain donation. Lots of possibilities for that. Andi, just which other symptoms of we could technology could help us here? Absolutely. And you know, I love still of the classic email course email miniseries, um, the kind of tool that you used to this. Anything that does what’s called a drip campaign. That just means email one goes out. You wait two days or however amount of time you set email to goes out. Then email three goes out. It’s just on a timer. And you, Khun, deliver education that way. One of my favorite uses for that is internally, a lot of non-profit struggle with keeping their staff trained or keeping them up today on policies that they really want them to remember. That might not be that fun. We send out reminders of the critical policies and the organization that the staff, especially if they’re like direct support staff need to remember. We often rewrite them and make them a little more fun in the email. It’s like if you want to read the real, you know the original policy, go to the handbook. But we’re going to make this a little more fun and remind you to, you know, drive safely or whatever those key policies are. So it’s a great way people aren’t going to read like if I give most people like a book and say, Here’s the man, you want to read it yet? Do they read it? No, it’s not. But if I turn it into five or six emails that air just like one or two paragraphs long and remind people in a fun way of the things I need to remember their going to read it. Yeah, Provoc could also be part of a campaign. Exactly. Do this with your volunteers with their donors. Um, okay, Automation. All right, so we’ve spent almost the first half of the show just like spitballing. But this is great. You know, I feel like I’m at a bar and we’re just having drinks and, uh, and there’s thirteen thousand people listening in um, but you know, so, uh All right. So you came with more orderly. You know, this is not all just a spitball thing, but leader now, I mean, this show does get planned, but I love this just back and forth. And, you know, it’s what we’re what we’re seeing through the years. Um, okay. We just have about a minute or so before a break. Let’s introduce this idea of overhead. Yet we haven’t, uh, yeah, the lingering overhead myth. Let’s introduce that, and then we’ll pick it up after the break. Sure. The lingering overhead myth, I think Damn pelota grave. A great Ted talk on it, dates back, apparently to the Puritans. But it’s this idea that there’s your programs that where you deliver all your impact and then there’s your overhead and that the overhead has nothing to do with the impact. And overhead is bad and impact is good. So all the money should go towards those impact. And I’m putting quotes around that because, yeah, around those programme activities and nothing should goto overhead because that’s a waste of money s O. But really, that’s not true. May be after the break. We’ll dive into that. Absolutely will. Because that is not true. And we need to I see it being eroded, but we need to kill it. Well, your C. P s. You need help with next year’s nine. Ninety perhaps. Or you are you doing? You’re nine ninety. I hope to God you’re doing You’re ninety for country. Are you thinking about a c P A change, perhaps in twenty nineteen or changing audit firm, maybe time for a fresh look at the books. Look at Wagner. Talk to partner yet each tomb. You know, he’s been a guest on the show. There’s no hard sell. There’s no bullshit duitz It doesn’t matter. We’re That’s right. We’ll have to see free. So I’m getting carried away. Ah, good weather cps dot com Now, time for Tony Steak too. Train your staff. Basic plan E-giving. I’m encouraging you to get them comfortable. Just opening conversations about the most popular type of plan gift, which is the charitable bequest in people’s wills. There’s no lifetime cost to your donors that can keep it private if they want to. I mean, you, you always want them to tell you, but if they want to keep it private. They can. They can change their minds. These air a couple of reasons that bequests are always I don’t care what size organization always the most popular planned gift. And so that’s the place to start. So that’s the place you want to start getting your staff trained just on the basics again, opening a conversation you don’t need in house expertise. You don’t need a lawyer. You don’t even need a consultant like me. You don’t need a lawyer on your board. You don’t need all that because you’re going to refer people to their own attorney because we’re doing this on a You know, this’s a streamlined which is trying to get you into plant giving. You don’t need the expertise. You can open those conversations. All right? I say more about this on my video. Aunt, I bring in the holidays. You see, as I talk about training is awesome. Holiday in search there as well. Ah, and I did it from a beach. And you’ll find that video at tony martignetti dot com. Okay, let’s go back to Sarah Olivieri and the encouragement show. Okay, So the overhead myth. Ah, yeah. So what do you counsel clients? On who? Who say that they’re concerned about possibly spending too much. And are donors going? Think we’re wasting money on overhead? Yeah. I mean, first of all, be brave, be intentional. Know that it’s not true that this I don’t even like to use the word overhead. I call, I say, its operations, right? So, like operations is the backbone of your organisation. Nothing happens without it. It’s the core. It couldn’t be more opposite then. This overhead myth. You need good leadership. You need structures and processes in place in order to make your whatever you’re delivering consistent and efficient. I love to talk about efficiency with non-profit. Okay? You need technology. Just technology, fundez technology. All these supporting you that costs money. Exactly. You need tools. Oftentimes you invest in a tool and you’re going to save so much time for so much money. But people are hesitant. That’s that D y. We’re going to do everything ourselves mentality. And it’s literally when you have that mentality, you’re sinking your own ship because your your ship is your overhead. It is your operational structure. And then it’s like the cargo is all the stuff you’re going to do to deliver your mission. So if you have a teeny ship and you just load on a ton of cargo, you are just going to sink it and you’re not going to deliver any mission. You’re not going to go anywhere and you’re not going to solve any major problems. So you need to make sure that if you’re going to grow programs, you grow your capacity. That means growing your ability to operate, right? So I hope people can begin to think like overhead is operating its function, its investment. In other words, yes. An investment in in your office, in a nice place for people to come to work on investment in professional development for your staff, an investment in technology investing in the future, right? You’re saying, you know, make you tea to be sustainable and have it be the right capacity. These are all investments, right? This is not wasted overhead. It’s investing in the future right here. If you’re planning something new, you might have to invest for a year or two in it and lose money at it. T get up to speed. That’s an investment in a new programme. Exactly. Yeah, I think I think you’re absolutely right and end its fundamental, you know, too many times to talk about, You know, of course, there’s the Non-profits are messy right on Dne on people say not, You know, a lot of non-profits. I’m like, Oh, man, we’re kind of dysfunctional, that dysfunction. That means you don’t have good functioning, Good functioning. That overhead is how you get good functioning. That’s how you become not dysfunctional, that that’s how you become not messy. That’s how you become a clean, effective, oiled machine that just is doing good in the world and can scale that up. If you want Teo and deliver, you know, deliver to more people, um, or whatever. If your environmental organization make a bigger impact, that is the key to making a bigger impact. It is not, you know, spending. You know, I think that the mindset shift that people need to make is they think, Oh, if we’re spending money on operations, it’s like we’re spending money on ourselves and we don’t spend money on ourselves. There’s kind of like that martyr mentality. Yeah, it’s got to go. Really got to go. You are worth investing in your staff is worth investing in your office is worth investing in. Technology is worth investing if you go to. If you go to your office on Monday and you’re boarding up windows X P you are not investing the way you need. Thio technology. Bring that shit to your boss and tell them this has got to go. We’re eight years behind on and just since this is the you know, I want to give some motivations of encouragement for people. You know you are, but you’re more the story and the story. That’s alright. Bien and Yang. Positive. Negative. You have this in you already. The story of Dorothy, right? Dorothy has the power to return home all along, but she has to go through this great journey. All she has to do is click your heels three times and say there’s no place from home. Well, you if you’re running a non-profit right now, or if you’re involved in one no place like home That’s right. I want to go home. I like to be really directed. Right? So you already believe in your non-profits mission? Like I know this about you like listening, right? Now you believe that your mission is worth investing in, which means you already have the power to believe that this is that it’s worth investing in. But you are part of your non-profit. And so you have to believe. Now you have to take that same belief that you believe in your mission and just convinced yourself you are worth investing in. Because if you don’t invest in yourself and in your organization, you’re not investing in your mission. And so if sues you, connect those two dots you already have that power to believe that you’re worth it. I don’t even. Yeah, the overhead myth. The way we gotta bury it, we got to kill it and bury it. It’s gone. All right. Um, something you have some ideas around feeling like you. You appear that you don’t have enough or appearing that you have too much Teo. Donors what? What is this? What is this second guessing? Why we looking over our our shoulders at ourselves? Why? We’re looking over our own shoulders. How did we do it? Yeah. Why are we looking over our shoulders? Wear we second guessing where we how we’re perceived, you know, I had a nice coincidence. I had two clients start where he will be around the same time on DH within within a week of each other. Had these two conversations, one client was a non-profit who had money and they said, Well, we’re afraid that, like if our website and our brochures and stuff look good, people are going to think we have a lot of money and they’re not going to want to give to us right. And then the other client who was a very small startup didn’t have any money, said We need our we need our brochures on our website to look really good because if people know that we don’t have money, they won’t give to us. And guess what? It doesn’t matter if you have money or if you don’t have money. You have just be authentic. Be yourself, play your own game, run your own race. If you have money, people will say Hey, this organization’s impact is important. That’s always the first thing and wow, they’re stable, They’re sustainable. They have enough money I’m going to give to them because I know that they’re going to keep going for the other one people want to give to their impact the primary driver. Is that like that emotional return? Yes, For some people, there’s the tax benefit. But I really think that secondary or twenty three year, twenty years in fund-raising consulting and it’s absolutely secondary. Yeah, for they’re buying an emotional return. They’re buying a feeling on DH And so but if you don’t have money, then you say, Hey, we don’t have money. We’ve got this amazing thing that we want to do. We have a great way, way so far, right? We want to scale do this with a thousand people instead of the dozen that we’ve served so far. Right. So you’ve got a great argument whether you don’t have money or you do have money with one caveat. If you’re worried that you’re not really delivering the impact that you say you are, measure it. Measure your impact. And if you’re not, if you if you take it and you’re like, man, we’re not really two making the changes. We thought you were just reorganise. Start time to pivot, right. It’s time to invest in that overhead and utter and figure out you know how you can make that impact cause you probably didn’t. You know, there’s a need there. There’s always a need. This goes to also just you touched on, you know, be genuine. Be honest. People can people when they’re talking to you less. So when they’re reading your material, that’s one dimensional. But but it applies somewhat. There. Two people can tell when you’re genuine and when your phony you know, if if you’re a small shop in your producing fancy four color brochures or you’re spending money on lavish video production, when when low production value could be just a sincere and jet or more sincere and genuine people see through that stuff, you know, be yourself. You said it yourself. Don’t And don’t don’t be ashamed of who you are and what you’re what you’re coming, too. Yeah, and when the way you look exactly. And both those problems, you know, relate to those air marketing marketing concerns, and I just like his marketing gets thrown around a lot. I like to just clarify, like what is marketing and because it’s not a department. Marketing is a means to an end. Marketing is about finding people whose who have an issue or problem that you can solve. So if it’s a donor, it means they’re looking for this positive experience. If it’s somebody who you might serve, it means they have, you know, you have a solution to the issue in their lives and then engaging those people who you found who already basically need what you have so that they take action with you. That’s marketing. Yeah. We have to take a break. OK, Eso look over your page air and you’re goingto welcome you to introduce the next topic right after this break. Tell us. Start with the video at Tony Dahna em a slash Tony, tell us don’t think what companies can you talk to toe? Ask them to switch their credit card processing to tell us maybe it’s one owned by a boardmember. It’s a local company that supported you or one that you’ve been thinking about approaching because you have a relationship of some type. Talk to them, have them watch the video. If they switch, you get the long stream of passive revenue from all those credit card um, transactions that they process. Tony Dahna may slash Tony. Tell us for the video. It’s not for the live listener love. We’ve got to do it. Did you think I had forgotten because I didn’t do it after Tony take to perish the thought? Hell, no. I could get it going further than hell. No, but I’ll just stick with hell. No. Um So where are we? So let’s go abroad. I want to go abroad. Russia. We cannot see your city But we know that you’re with us. Russia, Live Love out to you Toronto up north. Welcome. Live Listen, love to you Mexico We can’t see a city And we got multiple Mexico. We have more ellos Mexico as well So we can see more ellos live love to you point a start is and the city we cannot see live love out to you Also, we got multiple New York, New York. Always got multiple New York, New York, Brooklyn, New York is in Queens, New York. Thank you very, very much. I don’t see anybody upstate. Sarah. Olivia. He didn’t bring her tribe, but they’ll listen to the podcast. And that’s the podcast. Pleasantries that come on the heels of the live listener love. You know, it’s the podcast Pleasantries that one dreaded follows the other can’t have. You cannot have one without the other. You cannot. It’s actually matter pleasantries to the thirteen thousand plus podcast listeners throughout the mostly in the US But I know throughout the world, but I know the UK checks in I know we’ve got listeners in Germany and now we’ve got Mexico podcast listeners also Ah, pleasantries, pleasantries to you, the vast majority of our audience. Thank you for being with Non-profit radio. Okay, What did you pick? What we were talking about Next. We’re gonna talk about wasting money, wasting money. What do you got? Well, I think you know a lot of people. It goes back to what we first talked about, right? This bad relationship with money and that a lot of people feel like when we spend money at Non-profits were flushing it down the toilet. When we spend it, it’s gone. That’s what’s happening. And that’s not the relationship I want youto have with money. I want you to realize that the way you should be spending money the way you hopefully our is thinking about what am I going to get back for my money and my getting Mohr value back than the money costs me. So you know, I get excited about spending money, not because I love spending money, but because whenever I choose to spend money in my business, I’m always getting something back that’s worth even more to me than the money that’s going to take me to the next level. So it’s great. It’s always like this exciting moment of growth where I’m getting something on DH. That is the mentality they really want people to adopt this coming year is that when we spend it, we are not throwing it away. But if you’re not thinking about what you’re getting back then, you might be wasting money. S O. This is one of those like, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. If you feel like spending money is wasting money, then the chances that you are wasting money are away. Hyre if you feel like spending money is a process of trying to get more back then you spent then you’re probably not wasting you want value for the dollar that each dollar you spend exactly. So I definitely want you to think about that. Another thing that’s related to this, I think, is a lot of people think about, You know, we need something it costs. I don’t know. Two thousand dollars, twenty five hundred dollars. We don’t have that money. Now. When we have that money, then we’ll spend on this. And that’s just like a process. I was just like in the future, if you have more money, we’ll spend on that. That money is never going to come. There’s not going to be a delivery of money that says you’re marked for this purpose that you’ve been putting off for eighteen months. Exactly gonna happen that way. So here’s the way I want youto think like time. Sorry. Exactly what? You’re not gonna find time now when I could find the time. I’ll do that. No. If it’s something that’s worth, well, you gotta make the time. That’s consciously put the time. Put the time aside now. And if you’re constantly putting it off, then you need to evaluate. Maybe this thing that we think talking about is not that important. Or maybe you’re not prioritizing correctly. Exactly. It’s just it’s it’s recognizing the value of time and the fact that it’s just not gonna land on your desk a week. Oh, here’s that project time you’ve been thinking about for eighteen months doesn’t happen that way. You need to be much. You need to be intentional about it. Exactly. Attention about time. Attention about money. So here’s the new way. I want people to think about it is that if you’re thinking, I need something stop and say What is the problem that I’m having? If you think you need a website if you think you need automation, stop for a moment and say What’s the problem I’m having If you think I need fund-raising say what’s the really cool Rob? What is the real problem? Get down to that problem. Could be a person. It could be a person, right? A process could not be working. A person could be in the wrong seat. It could be You know, it could be any number of things from outside influence, right? Once you’ve found that real problems say, if I fix this problem how much is that worth to me? If I don’t have this problem? If this problem is gone, how much is that worth to me? What can I do next? If this problem is gone and then say how much time money resource is. Am I willing to spend to have this problem gone? And then then you have your budget, if you can solve it for less bio all means. But then you have your number. You have your number, and then you go get that money. You say I need this problem solved. I see this probably the most painful area where I see this is with employees. If you have the wrong people in the job and you’re just, like, afraid toe, let them go or afraid to change their position. That is really hard. But if you ran the numbers, you bilich I’m wasting, like, fifty thousand dollars a year on this person. Shopping, energy and other people see it as well, right? No, it’s about the other people in the organization know it’s a bad fit that they’re seeing a day in and day out of their employees. It’s draining you. Yeah, so your problems are probably costing you more than you realize. And if you really think about that, you’ll be like, Oh, yeah, we’re going to raise that money right now, and that problem’s going to be gone. Let’s talk about something you mentioned early on fund-raising events, events sucking the life blood. What did you What did you say? It caught me. But But I But I also want to talk about you know, that over reliance on events. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I said I think like it sucks the capacity. All of your fund-raising capacity goes to putting on an event because the time Yeah. And then you have nothing left in you to do the more important fund-raising. Like, if you’ve done all other fund-raising strategies and you still have a ton of time and energy on your hand, do an event. But if you haven’t just, like, try not to do that event, try to stop doing it trying to do any other fund-raising strategy event. Also, a lot of times you have tio, um, defeat on argument by a boardmember. Yeah, that events. You know, I just went to this great gala, and they raised two and a half million dollars. Yeah. Okay. Well, so what size organization was that? Did they have entertainment that cost him three hundred fifty thousand dollars? You know, to get to get Don Henley on stage or something. Oh, are the Eagles, you know? So Don Henley here’s the Eagles. Okay, so you know, board members often come with these gala ideas because they just played, and they just they just played in a golf tournament. Or they were just at this lovely event at a restaurant. Is it? You have to help your board members recognize that you likely don’t have the capacity to produce the event that they’re trying to get you to do and then want something you might do is ask them to chair it, right? Exactly. And the event that they went to probably didn’t actually like after expenses. Probably right. And sometimes people think just about you know what they netted at, you know, based of costs, but put on that event, but they forget to calculate that it took, like, one of their employees full time work for three to six months. So you factor in there that salary chances are you’re taking a loss, and a part of the argument is, but think of all the people will bring. We get hundreds of people thinking about us and giving to us. Whoa, Thinking about us? Yeah, they’re thinking about you that night giving to you. That’s a big stretch. That’s a huge stretch, and there’s enormous follow-up That has to happen. And notoriously, event attendees who came because they’re friends invited them are unlikely to become long term sustainers for you. They were happy to do that. They were happy to buy the fifty dollar table or the fifty dollars seat with a two hundred fifty dollars ticket, whatever it was. But beyond that, it takes a lot of cultivation to get them to become close to you that they give beyond the annual event. So don’t let your whoever espousing this this great gal idea talk you into the idea that every everybody who comes is going to become a major donor instantly. It does not happen. There’s enormous cultivation and has to take place after that event. In fact, you know a pivot ground. We don’t really focus on fund-raising that much in a lot of people who come to me with, like we need to do fund-raising I say, Okay, well, what’s your capacity to like, manage donors like, Are you able to follow-up donor follow-up with donors? Do you have somebody who can like put together a fund-raising strategy. No, you need to do that for because there were these hundreds of people who come right reportedly come to this event exam you have No, you have no capacity to fall to do the follow up. Right. And for small non-profits out there, you know your thing thinking like, Oh, I need to do my end of your fund-raising letter. Ask yourself first, Do you have a list of people to send it to? No, but don’t worry about the letter. Move on to an activity you can do Move on to list building host a friend raiser host a holiday party that costs you almost nothing. Get some contacts on your list. Someone someone’s home, right? I love small events are great Hold that thought will come back to get take our last break text to give Talk about email many courses. Sarah was talking about the drip campaign. The five part email Many course debunking five myths. Do you think text donations have to go through a phone bill? And so they take ninety days to collect? No, not true. Doesn’t have to be that way. Do you think there are high startup costs? No, not so. There’s a lot of misinformation around. Text e-giving. You can raise more money, get the email many course from text to give you text. NPR to four, four, four nine nine nine, five Emails. Okay, We’ve got several more minutes for this encouragement show. All right, sometimes, as just now happens, as sometimes happens, I forgot what we were just talking about many events, but I’d love to talk about our pieces in the buying process, wake and finish up with many of them. That something? Yeah. In someone’s home. Right. Deal. This is ideal for the boardmember. Who says I hate fund-raising? Okay, you can help us. Friendraising you can bring some people will bring some of the some people to you’re not only responsible, but we’re gonna have We’re going twelve or fifteen people on DH. There’s going to be a short presentation by me. The CEO on We’re going toe that, you know, that’s something manageable, right? Weaken follow-up with twelve or twenty people. Exactly. And it should cost you roughly nothing. Like usually, like you get a host who has a nice house and we’ll buy dinner and, you know, make dinner you get. Maybe someone else donates the wine. Or you might have a host told Burghdoff grantmaking dinner. Exactly record make dinner or Kate or whatever their level is, there’s lots of people who would host a dinner for eight to twelve people in their homes. You know, you somebody from your organization, a couple boardmember show up and then you just have to Between your organization and the hosts contact list, you invite a small group of people and those can have fantastic turnout’s a great way to spend money and energy that you spend money. But spend energy. Yes, not so much money. Right? So eight to twelve. You could cook for that. But I was thinking, like, twenty might want to cater that right? Exactly. And it all depends on what your resource is air like. Who’s you know who’s house? It’s at what you’ve got. What you waiting get to think about. These cultivate small cultivation events, right? Much, much more manageable in terms of both front end and the follow-up. After that, what’s your point? Right? And you’ve got a follow-up after the event, and you know you really want to focus on that moment. That the donation is given and then expanded out from both ends. What happens? What’s their experience after they gave their donation? And what’s their experience just before? So a lot of people focus on making a great experience so that somebody gives them the donation. But then they forget about the follow-up after somebody gives, which is just a CZ important because you want them to give again and tell their friends that was great. That was the, uh, what What about the donor journey that pursuant as they have a whole, they have, ah, resource on this demystifying the donor experience. It’s exactly what, at twenty dollars slash pursuit with a Capital P. It’s exactly what you’re talking about. That donor journey mapping the experience out exactly. Exactly. It’s really important. Another tip I have for people is, you know, if you have a website, you can probably make a unique donation landing page for each of your board members. That way, when they go out and start soliciting their personal contacts to say, Hey, would you give to my organization? They can send them to a landing page. It’s like This is the donation page for my organization. But it’s got, like, as if I’m the boardmember. It’s got my name and picture on it and what my pitches to most of my friends and that way I know that when I give my friends and I’m asking him to make a contribution when they do, they’re having an experience that’s connected to me and that I know what that experience is going to be. And then for the organization, you know, exactly like you could give me credit as a boardmember, you know, you’ll know whence one of my contacts makes a donation because they came through my painting at the organization’s all trackable personalized boardmember landing page. Yeah, yeah, simple, even a short shit that you like for landing pages. I’m not particularly, you know, we do website, so we actually usually build them in the in the site itself. Um, and otherwise, you know, lead pages. Oftentimes if it’s a donation page, Whatever tool you’re using to list your pages, this is an area where it can get kind of complicated for non-profits picking the right tech stack we call it. That means the tools you’re going to use that all work together, so But yeah, there’s no specific recommendations. Really matter what you have already in places where you need to bring in experts in this, that is the moment. Like private group. Yeah. Pivot ground. That’s right. All right, so there was something we just have, like two minutes or so left you lying process, You know, r r f. P s and the buying process. You know, I think a lot of non-profits rely too heavily on our piece. Like our peace, Our good. Ifyou’re like, we have plans for building and we’re now going to build the building, we need a contractor doing R F P. But you don’t need an r f P for everything. And especially if you’re going to get, like, expert advice or have your situation assessed, You don’t need an r F. Pierre, you don’t need a complicated r f P. It could be like, What are you selling and what’s your process? Or maybe it’s like rather than rpm, it’s an announcement. Like it doesn’t have to be this giant document like, Hey, we’re hiring for this. Come, tell us if you if you solve this problem. And another thing is you, when you make complicated R F P is especially no in the marketing space. Like most good marketers, I know good Web people. They won’t respond to our I’ve had guests on the show talking about the R F P process for tech. Protect provoc. You’re going to get the bottom of the barrel. They won’t respect. You have to intensive. So if you can avoid it at all, costs like don’t do are of peace for tech projects. And then I think another thing is I’ve come across this concept that doesn’t I don’t understand of non-profits thinking, we have to be fair in who were hiring. And I think that this comes from like, we don’t want to be corrupt or we don’t want to, you know, have a conflict of interest that causes us to hire someone out of favoritism. But and you should make sure, though instead that you’re getting the best value for your non-profit. Don’t get this fairness. What do you mean? I heard it a lot like, Oh, well, we just left. Sure. So here’s a great one. We can’t hire someone who’s on our board. Who’s an expert in this because they’re on our board, and it wouldn’t be fair. They already know what the project is. And that’s just silly. I think people get confused about conflict of interest versus confluence ditigal hyre them, they become an employee, and then they shouldn’t. Probably they should not be on your board anymore as an employee, but but they could still be some kind of. Now you’ve got their expertise, right? Or if they offer a service, you know, you know, they shouldn’t be the only one. You asked for it, but chances are, if your board members a professional, I’m sure if you were on a board, you would give your services at that. Probably a better rate than anybody else would. Well, so you know this process of going out and getting a few quotes on something that’s great. But the purpose is to get the best value for your organization. Not to be fair to all the people out there. We’re gonna leave it. There grayce Sarah Olivieri. You’ll find her at She’s at Pivot Ground and the company’s pivot ground dotcom. Thank you very much. Thank you. It was a great conversation. Thank you. Next week, there’s no show. The week after that, there’s no show, no show. For the next two weeks. We’ll be back on January fourth. I hope you enjoy the hell out of your holidays. Take time for it. Make time for yourself. Don’t just look to find it. Make time for yourself some quiet time over the holidays. Enjoy the hell out of it. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuant Capital P Wet Nurse Oppa is guiding you beyond the numbers when you’re cps dot com. Bye. Tell us credit card in payment processing, Processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine A creative producer is clear. Myer, huh? Chris Gutierrez is today’s line. Producer shows Social Media Is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scott Steiner. Brooklyn. You with me next week for Non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What? Great. Go. You’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving. Xero cubine you are listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversation. He’s got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Santa the potentiality. Tune in every Tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show Yawned Potential live life Your way on talk radio dot n Y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Do you like comic books and movie Howbout TV and pop culture? Then you’ve come to the right place. Hi, I’m Michael Gulch, a host of Secrets of the Sire, joined every week by my co host, Hassan, Lord of the Radio Godwin. Together we have over fifteen years experience creating graphic novels, screenplays and more. Join us as we bring you the inside scoop on the pop culture universe you love to talk about. Wednesday nights eight p. M. Eastern Talk radio dot in lives. Did you know you’ve been playing poker your whole life, even if you’ve never played a hand of cards? Hi, I’m Ellen Lake and author of Polka Woman and host of the new show Poker Divas. On the show, I talk about poker. Strategy helps you win in business, Life and Love tune in Live every Thursday one p. M to two p. M. Eastern Standard Time on talk radio dot N. Y. C. You’re listening to talking Alternative Network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, Sam Liebowitz, your conscious consultant. And on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on Thursdays at twelve Noon Eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant, Our Awakening Humanity. Thursday’s twelve noon on talk radio dot N. Y c. You’re listening to the talking alternative network.

Nonprofit Radio for December 7, 2018: Lean Impact

I love our sponsors!

Do you want to find more prospects & raise more money? Pursuant is a full-service fundraising agency, leveraging data & technology.

WegnerCPAs. Guiding you. Beyond the numbers.

Credit & debit card processing by telos. Payment processing is now passive revenue for your org.

Fundraising doesn’t have to be hard. Txt2Give makes it easy to receive donations using simple text messages.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Listen Live or Archive:

My Guest:

Ann Mei Chang: Lean Impact
Your organization can adopt the lean innovation practices that help fuel the rapid evolution of digital tech in Silicon Valley. Ann Mei Chang says you need to, if you’re to do your best work in social change. She’s author of the new book, “Lean Impact.”

 

 

 

 

Top Trends. Sound Advice. Lively Conversation.

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

Sponsored by:

View Full Transcript


Transcript for 418_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20181207.mp3

Processed on: 2018-12-08T19:18:01.171Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2018…12…418_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20181207.mp3.982224009.json
Path to text: transcripts/2018/12/418_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20181207.txt

Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of depress opus. If you made me face the idea that you missed today’s show lean impact, your organization can adopt the lean innovation practices that helped fuel the rapid evolution of digital tech in silicon valley. And mae chang says you need to if you’re to do your best work in social change. She’s author of the new book lean impact on tony. Steak, too. Train. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant bye weinger cps guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us, tony. Credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text n pr to four four, four nine nine nine it’s a pleasure to welcome and may chang to the show. She’s the author of lean impact. How doe in innovate for radically greater social good. She’s worked as chief innovation officer at yusa idea and mercy corps and serve the u. S department of state as senior adviser for women and technology in the office of global women’s issues prior to her pivot to the public sector and may have more than twenty years experience as a technology executive at google apple and into it, as well as a range of startups. She’s at an mei and her book is at and made dot com. I’m very glad her book brings her to non-profit radio. Welcome to the show and may thank you so much for having me, tony. Real pleasure. Oh, you’re coming in loud and clear. Your your tech is you’re not surprising that your tech is awesome. Sound great. Thank you. Um, this lean impact process that you’ve evolved comes from the lean startup movement. Eric. I read his book, but i don’t know how to pronounce his last name. Is it? Reese? Isn’t eric reese? Yeah. Eric mary-jo k. Yeah. So within that, as a lean startup came from toyota manufacturing. Talk a little about just, you know, some little overview of lean startup and how you’ve morph this into the social change, social change, work and lean impact. Yeah, sure. So eric restore the book called lean startup about seven years ago now where he described a methodology for building products and services under conditions of extreme uncertainty. And this is certainly, you know, it’s it’s growing out of his work in silicon valley on dh, his own failures and what he learned from this failures about how we build products better on dh. You know, although it came out of silicon valley, it’s since then been highly papa popular and been adopted no, in business, both big and small and government and around the world. It’s been a new york times bestseller. It sold over a million copies and, you know, and this issue of extreme uncertainties really important. So if you’re building a product or service that is well understood and well defined, and you know exactly what you need to do, then what you care about is predictable execution. But if you’re trying to build something in a realm of high uncertainty, what you need is to figure out how to speed up your process of learning. And that is his court. Insight is that if we don’t know where we’re trying to get to what we need, to do is learn as quickly as possible to figure out the best way to get there. And why should i non-profits care about what came from lean startup, which now your book lean impact? Yeah, so, you know, if the lean startup was originally very focused on silicon valley, like i said in this branch out from there. But if you think about tech start ups, they work with high uncertain because they’re trying to build products and services no one has ever done before and not in the same way create new business models, new technologies and so forth in the nonprofit world. I would argue that we have at least a much if not more uncertainty, were generally working on challenges that are a big complex and entrench that have been around for ages and where the solutions we have are simply insufficient. Otherwise, we’d all be out of business. And so we give that we’re dealing with this incredible uncertainty both and not having interventions that are necessarily good enough. A cz well is not having one that can scale dramatically enough. That’s where techniques such a lean startup i become really appropriate. And yet you know the reality is that innovating and the social sector is much, much harder on. We can talk about all the reasons why, but, you know, from coming from silicon valley into the social sector. At first i thought i’d have it easier in some ways. But in fact it’s much, much harder because, you know, we have to deal with things like highly restrictive funding, you know, impact that can be difficult to measure. It may take years to realize that we worked with vulnerable populations for the whole notion of experimentation. Khun seem irresponsible you. In fact, you lay out some of this. I wantto i ripped out page sixty three from your book. I’m not gonna ask you to quote page sixty three. I doubt you haven’t memorized by page, but because i don’t bring, i’ll bring books to the into the studio, but i ripped out page sixty three and i wantto i’m going to read ah, paragraph. And i think this sets it up a cz just as well as you did. And and ask some very important questions that your book and this whole process set out to answer a grassroots community named lien impact sprang up several years ago as an offshoot of the lean startup movement, bringing together hundreds of practitioners. What has been missing is a framework that answers the common questions that arise when theory meets reality. How do i experiment when my funding is based on activities and deliver a bles that air predefined? How can i create a feedback loop? But it takes years for true impact to become evident. Is it responsible for us to experiment on people who are already vulnerable? Where do i find the resource is to test and iterated when i can barely make payroll? And i thought that was a really striking paragraph on dh. Set it up all very nicely on dh serves as some motivation for people in our non-profit community, too. Well, frankly, they’re gonna start with buying the book. I mean, that’s the first step you got. Tio got it by the book on then and then become acquainted with the practice of the impact. Yeah, and i think in that paragraph, really just try to call up some of the unique town does their face in the nonprofit sector who were trying to innovate. It’s not that we don’t want any of it. That’s not profit. Leaders very much care about these issues, care about their mission, want to figure out better solutions but worked within constraints that make it very hard to do so. I know many non-profit leaders that i’ve read the lean startup or similar types of books on the similar types of training and go back to the days you know their day job and just feel stuck because these these different impediments making much, much harder to innovate. And so, with the lean impact book, i’m not trying to come up with some new rocket science way of doing something. You know, most of the techniques i talked about are fairly common sense. But what i do try to do is look at how do we do this? Do these common sense things in the context of social good where we have to work within these kinds of strength, and i do so by bringing forward the stories of organizations that have been incredibly successful that has found ways to navigate these and other challenges. Ok, i agree. You did do that, and, uh, we’re gonna go out just, ah, moment early for our first break. And when we come back, you and i will talk about the way the book is organized around the three hypotheses. So first break pursuant they have to resource is to help you use data for improved fund-raising. The field guide for data driven fund-raising was riel world case studies of organizations using data to hit their fund-raising goals all data driven, just like pursuing typically is and the other is demystifying the donor experience revealing simple ways to develop relation a ll donordigital durney for your donors. You find them both at the listener landing page tony dot m a slash pursuing capital p for, please. And may you have these three hypotheses that the that the book is built around inspire, validate and transform. Can you? Ah, you sort of set these up for us and then we looked at, and then we’ll pedal through and we’ll touch down as much as we can. But, you know, we only have an hour. You just people got it by the book. I mean, that’s all there is to it. So go ahead, please. Yes, you’re i think you’re talking about the three parts of the book on the book is organized into three parts. The first part is inspire, and i think one of the biggest challenges in the social sector is that we tend to plan within constraints. We look at the amount of the money we have, amount of staff, we have the size and scope of grant and we think, what can we do with what’s in front of us with these? Resource is. And so i think the first line set shift is tio. Think big e also codify three principles really starts. A person would just think that that that we need to start thinking instead of what can we do with within the constraints we have, but what is needed in order to move the needle on the problems that we care about. And so the first part of the book is really looking at how do we expand our horizons? B’more ambitious about what we’re trying to do. Um, then the second part of the book, validate, is really the core of the book is what the lean startup is about is once, you know, have that you know, you’re thinking big, you have big aspirations. You have a potential solution that might work. How can you validate that solution to determine quickly, cheaply, a. Cz possible, whether it does deliver the things that you hope it will be. Too often we spend too much time heading down the wrong path on dh, wasting a lot of time and money before realizing some of the mistakes we’ve made. None of us a t least, not myself, can design something perfectly for such complex problems that we work on. And so figure out how we accelerate the pace of learning so that we can validate what you know. The risks that we are taking on by playing a new solution is essential to getting to a solution that works, and the third part of the book is called transform. And and that’s really looking at, you know, beyond sort of any individual organization and what they can do to both identify their problems. Think big, start small and experiment. How do we look at the broader system that we work in to transform the system to help us all be more effective? And that includes both with respect to solving problems the system change that is required. It also pertains to organizations. How do we change the culture of organizations? But it also applies to the sector at large. How do we change the dynamics of funding in the relationship between funders and non-profits so that we can all achieve more of what we’re looking for. Thanks. Excellent. Set up. And i see i understand my mistake. I called. I called these year your hypotheses, but you’re the hypotheses or value growth and impact, so thank you. Yeah, that’s well, we’ll get to those, but those are the three parts of the book. That was or not three hypotheses. I don’t want to confuse people who confuse our listeners. You you say that, you know, i i mean, i see i saw his like your objective, and this is the last last time i’m going to quote the book. Okay. I mean, i don’t i don’t read books backto authors who have written, but i just love this, too. If you want to find the most efficient path to deliver greatest social benefit at largest possible scale, that seems like, you know, that’s what you’re trying to help people do through lean impact. Most efficient, greatest social benefit at the largest possible scale. And my buy-in. Are you still there? You know, you cut out their part way through the quotes, so i didn’t quite hear the whole quote. Well, that’s a problem, okay? It’s if you want to find the most efficient path to deliver greatest social benefit at largest possible scale, that seems to me that’s what you’re trying to get get non-profits to to achieve. Yeah, exactly. I mean, i think that again because of a lot of systemic constraints we work in a lot of times what we’re doing is nibbling away at the edges. Were putting band aids on problems and doing some good on dh, making some difference, which is fantastic. But i think there’s a lot more we could do. And the reason that i wrote the book look at how can we bring some of these tools that have worked in other domains were squarely into the social sector so that we can deliver greater impacted skillsets. That’s ultimately what we’re all after. Andi. It’s just harder to do what one thing i would sort of add to that is, you know, in the business world, companies are expected to maximize shareholder value or maximize profits on dso everything, cos do you know all the decisions that they make day today? The metrics they collect, you know, sort of incentive they set up all around. How do we match my shareholder value? How do we maximize profits? And what i love to see is in the social sector. You know, whether you are a donor or whether you’re non-profit or whether your social enterprise that we hold ourselves that same standard to stay. We’re thinking impact. How do we maximize our impact? Not just how do we have some impact and sort of feel like we’ve done some good how we maximize that impact, and that’s really what the book is about is trying to put lord some tools that can help us magnify the impact that we’re having, because the things that we’re trying to solve are so grandiose, they’re so large, the problems with the problems that non-profit too devoted to our just so enormous. Yeah, absolutely. So starting with, you know, inspiration on dh listeners. I have heard many, many guests say the place to start is with your goals, you encourage you, you clamor for audacious goals. Yeah, absolutely. I think non-profits usually have audacious missions. The thing that i think is often missing, though, is that those missions are aspirational and their vague. There, you know, we’re going to end poverty, and instead what i want to encourage us to do is that much more concrete goals that are measurable, that our time down there geographically bound so that we know where we’re trying to get two more concretely and have those goals be goals that we don’t know how we’re going to get you yet. Because if you can achieve your goals with business as usual, there’s no reason to take risks or one potentially failing to innovate those cycles that really are a stretch but that are measurable so that we can tell whether we’re making enough progress towards wth um, um, and that sets the stage to orient everyone in the organization, as well as the other partners, to know exactly what we’re trying to get you. If you think of president kennedy’s call to send a man to the moon that galvanized the nation to try to figure out, how are we going to do this thing that we don’t yet know? How to do. And i think for non-profits, if we don’t set more concrete goals, it’s you know, if there’s a temple, it’s easy to fall into the trap of just moving in the right direction but not necessarily moving fast enough or deeply enough. Ah, part of what you point out is ah related to. This is a problem that we tend to fall in love with our solutions and you want us to fall in love with the problems. Yeah, i love the phrase fall in love with your problem, not your solution. I think this is a problem. Also in the business world that organizations can, companies can get very excited about their product or service. And and you get stuck to that and forget about what problem they’re trying to solve. I think it’s an even greater challenge in the social sector. I think that they’re there’s a tendency to fall in love. Are with our problems even more for a number of reasons. One is that whatever solution we have, we often it’s usually doing some good where that we don’t have a solution that’s doing some good. And so therefore we’ve seen it make a difference in real people’s lives on dso weaken become emotionally patch we wanted do whatever it is four more people even if it’s not the optimal thing to do even if there’s a potential to do something more it’s it’s easy to get stuck in that because we’ve seen it do some good and we don’t want to get it out because there’s a real need but there’s also i think because of the dynamics of social lt’s actor were constantly promoting our solutions. This is what you see on people’s websites. It’s what we’re pitching the thunder saying this is the best thing that you could possibly fund-raising dent if i with it becomes part of our organization als identity. And so it’s very hard to let go of any particular solution you have and what’s interesting to me. I talk to and work with a lot of different non-profits is that, you know, i can talk to ten different non-profits in the same sector, and they’ll all tell me that their solution is the best possible solution and out there, and i can’t imagine that that’s true. They can’t all possibly be right. Andi. Yet everyone has that we felt belief. So i think it’s important for us to have the data and look at the data, see what really is the best solution and of our solution isn’t the best recognised that and look at how we can improve it or look at how we can adopt. I’ve somebody else’s solution or elements of someone else’s solution or partner with someone else. And you know that kind of rigor behind delivering them. But most impact we ken will get us a lot further. You’re a computer scientist, you know. So you’re. Of course. That’s why you’re something stronger than encouraging your insisting that we be be data driven, your scientist. And so you’re bringing the rigor of the scientific method to this social change work. Um, we’ll get to, you know, it’s just that it’s tempting to talk about it now. You know, you thought of your book is how to make this change in your your in your organization that culturally. But i have to talk about it now, too, because we’re we’re talking about ego. This is this is difficult for people to abandon ego, put aside ego and recognize that their solution isn’t the best that there, that the work that they have been devoted to isn’t the best way the best way teo, to solve the problem that that that they’re attacking ego is because a tough thing to teo fiddle with toe get people to put aside yet. And organizations and an organization to put aside. Yeah, i mean, both individually and this organization’s again because we’re doingood. Our tendency is tio want encourage each other, pat each other on the back, you know, encourage each other. You’re doing good. Keep going. Keep doing this. You know you’re taking it a lower salary. You’re working long hours. Like who wants to discourage people who are doing that on dh. One of the things that i loved about coming into the social sector is, you know, just the culture. You know, people are so encouraging, so embracing, so supportive of each other. And yet i think something is also lost in that that we because we want to encourage each other. We often are reluctant to ask each other. The hard questions of, you know is working as well as it could. Could we do more, you know, kind of point out ways that maybe something is not quite meeting its full potential on when i said you’re a computer scientist, i didn’t mean to minimise the what? Two decades almost of work that you’ve been in non-profits as well. So i don’t know what the balances. But you’ve you’ve done quite a bit of work in the nonprofit community to i didn’t mean to say that. You’re you’re fresh to the non-profits. That’s not that’s not the case at all. All right. So you want us to think big with these audacious goals that are properly bounded? Think big, but start small. We’ll flush out. Out? Yes. So once you have that audacious goal, there’s a temptation to say i have a solution. That’s good enough. Let’s just execute and deliver as much of it as we can. But when we start small, it allows us to run experiments much more quickly and cheaply. If you’re working with five or ten or fifty people, you can be much more nimble. You can try things out. You, khun, learn much more quickly. You can adapt and change much more quickly than if you’re working with thousands of people. And so, by starting small allows us to accelerate that pace of learning again where we don’t have a solution that we know is good enough to fully solve the problems that we’re we’re trying to address. Okay, now this yeah. So this is ah, quite contrary to teo. What’s traditional and typical and quite a bit less efficient than than what you’re you’re promoting. What help people understand you mentioned these experiments. So what these experiments going to look like with ten people or fifty people instead of five thousand people. Yeah, sure. Let me give an example, maybe from from social enterprise in kenya. So there’s a a social enterprise called copia global in kenya that decided that that decided to focus on the issue, that people who are low income, the being in remote rural areas have a very limited choice of consumer goods. They can only really get this staples, and so they have a lot less choice of things that can enrich their lives. And so they set out this address this problem to give people much wider choice by, you know, sort of being the amazon, if you will, of rural kenya. And you know what some organizations might do is to go out, you know, build some warehouses, build transportation infrastructure, build some catalogue ordering system hyre a bunch of staff and so forth and roll out an offering. And i would take a lot of time and effort and money to do so. Instead, they decided to run an experiment minimum viable product, or m. V. P, which are these small experiments that eric talks about in the lead startup that allow us to validate our assumptions. First, until the case of copia global, their assumptions that they wanted to test were first would people order from a catalog was something people would find appealing. Second, what kinds of products would be most interested in? And third would agents cell from the catalogue could because they find agents that would help them sell in these different areas. And so what they did in their mvp was that the ceo at the time crispin went to the sort of walmart equivalent in the city and took photos of a bunch of different products, paste them into a handful of catalogs and gave them out to a potential agents and a few villages and step back to see what would happen. And now, when somebody came in and they want to place an order, the agent, we give him a call he would literally himself go run to the store, pick up that product just at the retail store by it, carry it to the village and deliver it. And certainly this is not something that was scalable at all, but it’s something that they could get up and running in the course of a few days, or a week and start to learn. And what did they learn? One. They learned that people were ordering from the catalog. It was appealing. People did have a demand for these products that were too hard for them to get, and so they validated demand. Second, they learned what products people were most interested in that help them figure out what things to put in their catalog when they actually wrapped up the business, what things to stock in the warehouse and so forth. And third, they had a surprise that people they thought would be the best agents who were the kiosk owners or the people who had these kind of corner stocked store equivalent that sold consumer staples. They thought that those would make the best agents, but they turned out to be terrible agents because there are far more interested in moving their own inventory in the store. But what they found out was that what made better agents were the people who ran complementary businesses, like a hair salon, where their customers were sitting around waiting to get their hair cut. They could flip through the catalogue order, things that they were looking for and it became a additional revenue stream for the business, and so do the m v. P. They were able to answer all sorts of questions very quickly, very cheaply. That helped them steer the next stage of their business in the far more effective erection. And so it’s it’s, you know, it’s experiments like these that that help us learn more quickly rather than focusing just on how do we roll out our program or our solution and the the the m v p. The minimum viable product? That’s that, that that’s at the at the root of all this. It’s it’s it’s smart because it’s you will avoid risk. You’re avoiding spending a lot of money and a lot of time on a solution that isn’t the best. Maybe based on assumptions that are invalid on dh, then is going is going to end up doing a disservice to the people you’re trying to serve to your employees, to your funders that flesh out more this and how non-profits could you apply the the minimum viable product to their work? Think, think through how to do that? Yeah, so that the way that you so the minimum viable product is really an experiment that test my hypothesis. So just step back a little bit when we think small. So when we have a solution and we know there’s some risks behind whether it will work or not, there’s some unknown. The first step is to identify that is unknown, so we contest that, and in the realm of social innovation, i think there’s three pillars of what makes a successful social innovation. And that is that it has to deliver value impacting growth. So value is something people want not only want, but we’ll demand will come back for will tell their friends about it. Fill a deeply felt need both by your beneficiary as well as by other stakeholders who need to buy-in is that people don’t want what you have. The offer. You’re going to be swimming upstream the whole time, the second once you have, you know, ascertain something people want. You have to ask, doesn’t have impact. Does this make a difference? Does it deliver the social benefit you’re looking for? In other words, does it work on guys? Too often we get far along and delivering something that people want, and that sounds good. To us but doesn’t necessarily deliver the social impact. And then the third pillar is growth, even if we’re delivery social impact from a few people, usually a scope of a problem, this huge there, maybe millions or hundreds of millions of people who have a particular need. And so how do we create an engine that will accelerate growth over time so that we can reach people enough people to really move the needle and sew? The m. V p is really the first step in what eric calls the build, measure learned feedback loop, which is essentially applying the scientific method to the risks that we identify. And each of these three categories that you identify a potential risk, for example, that people may not want to order from the catalog. You build an m p p, like copia did to test that assumption. Then you measure the results. You gathered data to see how many people ordered people engage, and then finally you learn. If you’re successful, then maybe it safe to double down. If you’re not successful like, for example, with copia, they’re there. They found out that the agents in the in these corner stores were not selling from the catalogue that they had to tweak their solution to to to look for other agents that might be more effective. And sometimes you find that, you know, you’re completely off base and you need to pivot and take a different direction altogether. And so it’s driving that bill measure learned feedback loop quickly as possible. That dr social innovation and, you know, we all do this in the bull court, of course, of time. Except that often the bill measure learned feedback loop. It can take years. By the time we deploy a program, you know, measure it, evaluate and learn from it. It can take years. And so what lean impact does is really asked. How do we move that learning cycle from an order of years to an order of days or weeks? All right, we gotta take another break when we come back and may and i, uh but also more stories about ah ah. Public school system, for instance, a cz. Great examples of this. This constant testing and learning iterating. And we’re talking about wagner sita is if you need help with your nine ninety, do you? I hope you hope you’re getting it out very soon. Are your books properly managed? Have you got the books? I do. Do you know how you’re doing financially? If you’ve got to see piela, maybe you’re thinking about a change in twenty nineteen. Talk to the wagner, the partner there. Eat huge tomb. You know him? He’s been a guest. You know him. Start out at wagner cps dot com and then pick up the phone. Talk to you. Check out regular cps dot com. Now time for tony’s take two training trains. I encourage you to invest in basic planned giving training for your fund-raising team, and i recognise your fund-raising team might be just you or you and the ceo that but get the basics of plan giving down. You want them to be you and your and your team. You want to be comfortable opening the door to conversations about a state plan. Gifts. That’s all that’s this’s not expertise. This is opening doors to conversations. You’re not talking about death like a lot of fundraisers. Think that complete misconception you’re talking about the long term value of your work and what what a long term gift is going to mean to keeping that work going beyond all of us. So that’s the that’s the essence of basic plan giving training. And in my video, i put a little holiday spin on training. So you check that out at tony martignetti dot com. Let’s go back to and mae chang and lean impact. Oh, and may you have this example of summat public schools. I felt like they were a good example of this iterating and was testing, learning and iterating. Yeah, one of the reasons that i think people struggled to look at how you can apply these tools in the social sector is that impact can take a long time to measure on dh, take a long time to fully realize and so you know. Example. Some of public schools is a great one because they work in education, where educational attainment is one of those things. Take a long time to fully realize that the founder of summat public schools, a woman named diane tavener, started out with this audacious goal that she wanted to start some schools that would serve a diverse student population, where one hundred percent of them would graduate from college. Now they brought in the best practices that they could find in education. Started up a couple charter schools, and eight years later, when they’re first cohort graduated from college, they they were highly successful. They beat out most of their peers and, you know, people were recognizing from this and encouraging her to just gail her solution. But but what diane recognised was that even though that they were doing well, they were doing better than any others. She believed they could do better, and she won’t had wanted to, you know, say she had set out with this goal of getting one hundred percent of students to graduate and they weren’t there yet. And so she she decided to invest instead and trying to figure out how to improve on the model. But she realized she didn’t want to wait another eight years for the next cohort to graduate. You know that that would be way too long in orderto see whether she was improving the models. Enough. So instead she decided to focus on building in a culture of of learning of it, aeration of innovation into their organization. And so what this looks like was they started out by running weeklong experiments for and did so over the course of fifty seven weeks, and each week they would bury the the structure of their classroom, the content of the classroom, the types of activities, whether it be, you know, kind of traditional lectures by teachers or south paste elearning on computers or small group project, or one on one tutoring. And they would look at all these different ways tools that they had and measure it each week by running student assessments, doing focus groups to see what the students are most engaged with interviewing teachers. And so each week they would gather this data marin what worked and didn’t work about what they had tried that week and that that’s what they’re doing and then try something slightly different the next. And so over the course of these this year, they essentially refined their model, a very transformative model for personalized learning and and, you know, have been highly successful. Their most recent cohort, ninety nine percent, got admitted to college. You know, they haven’t yet graduated from college. But now this model that they’ve developed has been adopted by over three hundred public schools around the country. So it shows that when you take a little bit more time up front to invest in improving what you’re doing to really maximizing the quality of what you’re able to deliver, then it’ll pay dividends over time. And and even in the case of education where you know, fully measuring educational attainment may take years and eventually get, they’ll get to looking at their graduation rates from college. There are often earlier indicators that can help you determine whether you’re on track or not and help you improve your solution along the way. And as you’re improving, you’re there’s a very good chance you’ll be. You may need to pivot at based on what you’re learning. I thought the the vision spring case in the book is a is a good example of multiple pivots. Can you talk about that one? Geever. Yeah. So a lot of times when we think about innovation, we think about the big, flashy new ideas and visions. Spring decided to focus on a seven hundred year old invention that has been proven teo. Increase productivity and improve learning potential and that i’d lost. And so, despite being seven hundred years old there’s an estimated two and a half billion people who need eyeglasses and don’t have them. Mental vision spring thought to bridge the gap you know we talked about earlier. They set out with an audacious goal that there’s two one a half billion people in need, and they started out of most non-profits would by looking, piloting in two locations in their case, elsalvador. In india, they recruited people they called vision entrepreneurs to go out to rule areas, division exams and provide eyeglasses and came back with really moving stories of people who weren’t able to work in a work again. Kids who weren’t able tto learn being latto learn more effectively, and many non-profits would be thrilled by that. You know, we’re making a big difference, but it wasn’t enough for vision spring. They recognized they were losing money with each person they reached, and they would never be able to scale to the degree that they needed teo achieve their goal. So they pivoted. Their second incarnation is that they set a vision centres in more urban areas that was serving more affluent population and took the profits from that too. Cross subsidize outreached into more rural areas. Through this mechanism, they were able to become financially self sustainable, also something that most non-profits would think. This is a huge success, not only doing good, we’re doing it in a financially self sustainable way. Prevision spring thought again it wasn’t enough because it would take them decades to be able to scale their infrastructure. To get to all the people around the world who could benefit, they pivoted again. They partnered with of organization in bangladesh called brac, who it which has community health care workers in every corner of the country and used their existing network to provide vision care. And through their partnership with brak, they’ve reached over a million people. Today on dh through other partnerships have not reached over four and a half million people. Well, that’s a pretty impressive number for a non-profits before and a half million people. But it still wasn’t enough provisions. Springbox kuze four and a half million is only a tiny fraction of two and a half billion, and they recognised that the problem here was really a systems problem that anyone organization could never reach. All of these people that we needed to figure out how to make marketsmart and how to make governments work better. And so they decided, instead of a public private partnership called the alliance that brought together eyeglass manufacturers, non-profits and local government to look at how they could work together to change the system. Tio encourage eyeglass manufacturers to manufacturer lower costs eyeglasses and distribute them to more remote areas, and to encourage governments to provide i care to their citizens. And one of their early successes was with the government of liberia. They find a mou where the government liberia agreed to work with, um, to provide vision care, do their national health care network as well as the public school system. Until you can imagine now, as they’re approaching this this problem from a more systems approach and working with making governments and businesses work for for people to provide vision, care to everyone that they can eventually get to this. This really audacious school they set out to, but it required them to be humble enough again, to your point, to put their ego aside to recognize when their solution wasn’t good enough and to be willing to pivot. Okay, i like that examples. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Alright, wait taking a break. Tell us. Start with the video at tony dot m a slash tony tello’s then think about this. What companies can you ask that would consider switching their credit card processing to tell us? Maybe it’s one owned by a boardmember. Maybe it’s one that’s already been supporting. You talk to them, have them watch the video. And if they switch, you get that long stream of passive revenue every single month. It’s it’s basically dahna unearned, but you’ve earned it. It’s that long stream, passive revenue that’s that’s the goal. And that’s what you can get through. Tello’s you’ll find this video and the intro at tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us now, back to and mae chang. Um and may the the tech industry has taken off well, not just recently, but has been able to grow so zoho so rapidly what you call the hockey stick growth growth curve. And a lot of that is explained by moore’s law. Ah, that dahna, eh? You know what? I think i know what it is, but you’re the computer scientists. You tell us just briefly what moore’s law is yes, the moore’s law was something that was defined by more. Who is that intel, i think almost fifty years ago now that said the number of transistors essentially, that the speed of computer chips would double every two years. I mean, tell true for almost fifty years now, and because of this, it’s driven this exponential growth in the computing industry, where computer that used to take up the whole building now fits in your pocket, and you can imagine all the things that that’s enabled us to do. And so, you know, it’s the underlying driver, a lot of the progress we see in the tech industry. So my question to you is, what is maize law going to be? There’s got to be. We have that. We need a maze law for the for the social change sector. Well, i think that, you know, moore’s law certainly has given the speed of computers, the advancement in the speed of computers. But what’s behind it in terms of like how how does that actually happen? You don’t just sit back and have more law takes place. Part of how that happened is because silicon valley is so competitive because there are are so many opportunities that people have really refined away to accelerate progress and accelerate innovation. And that’s what i think the lean startup captured so well. And it really is about having those audacious goals. You know, like how do you know? Doubling every two years is is a really fast pace of progress, and that requires organisations to take risks, to try different techniques, to try different approaches and figure out howto learn as quickly as possible. And that’s you know, where some of these innovation techniques i’ve really been home. But i do think that these techniques are just as important and justice needed for the social sector because we’re talking about solving, you know, real challenges, that where people are suffering, where there’s real needs. And so we need it more than ever. And i truly believe that the same techniques are equally ethical in the social sector. I’ve seen organizations, the success, sloan applying them and be able to dramatically magnify their impact. Andi so you know, i think there is a real translation there, but again, it’s not easy. It’s much harder in the social sector, and so you know, the lean impact book is really my attempt at looking at how do we adapt these tools for the realities of social good? Okay, i hope you believe in all this because that’s what the book is about. So you say you said you believe these tools apply. I hope you do. All right, but i’m challenging you. I want to see a maze law and maze low if you want. But i like the, you know, like the liberation of going from morris to maze, so yeah, i mean, are you, um i’m concerned, are you? I’m concerned. I guess i’m not really asking. I’m telling you. What about my concern? I’m i’m concerned about what i call legacy non-profits. Maybe i don’t catch if you use that in the book, but you know, the ones that are so big and bureaucratic that taking on new thinking like this and vast culture change just doesn’t seem likely. I mean, they just seem like dinosaurs that don’t know what their future is. Don’t know how bleak their future is. I don’t know. Are you more optimistic? And i am about those those types of legacy institutions. I am. I mean, maybe it’s in part because in my last job at uc, i’d e i worked at one of those dinosaur institutions, you know, on the underside here. But we also worked with a lot of large established non-profits that have been around for ages. You know, the yusa ideas, the us government’s foreign aid agency were one of the largest donors in the world. And we’re government. So you know, we are, ah, large, entrenched bureaucratic organization, andi. Even that yusa idea, we know with the vision of russia whose administrator, when i joined you, say i’d haye set up something called the global development lab that was recognizing that, you know, the world is changing, and we need to change with it if we want to stay relevant. So the lab was set up with this duel part mission teo identify innovations that could dramatically move the needle on our aim to fight global poverty as well as to look at how we could transform the development, the tools in our approach to development self to accelerate both our own work and those of our partners. And so so i saw through that how we could in a large established bureaucratic organization start planting the seeds of a new culture. It’s not easy. In our case, it was a separate team that kind of started out that was protected by the leaders shippen. But that ultimately, overtime made inroads across the whole agency by finding other people who really know saw the need, you know, felt felt, felt compelled to find better tools on dh were interesting partnering with us. And i thought, i’ve seen this happen at lots of large non-profits as well, that they know that they recognize that, you know, people work at non-profits, who they care about the mission. And even though some parts of organizations maybe entrench, there’s always some people there who, you know are restless and want to find better solutions and are just looking for the tools and opportunity to use. Um, yeah. All right, well, that was exactly we capitalize on that restlessness because, you know, doing well isn’t as good, is doing the best. And that’s what you know that’s that’s your that’s your that’s running through the book. That’s your thesis. You know, we wantto do it. Maximum scale, you know, as you say, greatest social benefit. Largest possible scale. Um, i so let’s let’s move over, too. Making this thiss transformation. You know what you call ah ri? Architecture of organizations? Ah, you say that, you know, we’re relying on nineteenth century institutions using twentieth century tools to address twenty first century problems. And we need to. The third part of your book is about the re architecture of not only the institutions that are doing the work, but also the funding institutions on the funding and their funding models. What did you you lead us into this one, i would you like to start this conversation about making this transformation? Yeah. So one of the biggest challenges that i heared over and over again across the over two hundred organizations i interviewed was funding that funding becomes an incredible impediment on one. The biggest issues of funding is that funding tend to be highly if under most thunders, wants to see you deliver very concrete short term delivery bubbles, that’s and that’s what how they measure you by and in your proposal, they expect you to layout in excruciating detail exactly how you’re going to do that, how you’re going to spend every penny, every person you’re goingto hyre and, you know, put together essentially what i call a grand master plan and then execute on that planet, sometimes over as many as five years. And those plans are quite rigid, and it prevents us from experimenting. Prevents us from taking risks. Potential prevents us from pivoting and taking different paths. When the status types of stories i heard over and over again, we’re from organizations who would get a grant from a foundation, start executing on that grant. Realized that it wasn’t working, but then continue doing it anyway. And of course, no one wants to go on the record about this buy-in tell you there’s lots of organizations that do this, but it’s just too hard to go back to your funder and say, this isn’t working. You’re worried you’re gonna lose the grants all together, then andi. So finding a different way, thiss kind of the existing relationship is one that seems like micro management to me, and we all know that people don’t do their best work when they’re micromanaged. So i think the first thing we need to do is we architect, the relationship between funders and non-profits that we need to have a relationship that’s a little bit more based on trust that allows for more risk that allows for more agility. And there’s a number of tools that we’ve tried to do this. The global development labbate use a. I. D. One of those is to tear funding. We have a mechanism called development innovation ventures that was modeled after venture capital where, rather than giving out the big, monolithic grants that yusa typically does, we would give out much smaller grant that we could take much more risk with and allow people to experiment. If they could show us that they had an idea where they thought they could develop a far more cost effective solution. What was that? So we give out these grants that were, like, typically about one hundred thousand dollars for them to try these things out. And if they were successful, they were able to get data back that showed that this thing had traction than we give them a larger grant of million dollars and then five million dollars. And so, just like in the startup world, where venture capitalist come in and they give you small amounts of money to test out your ideas and more money as you get more traction by funding this way in the non-profit space, we can allow people to take a lot more risks. We can allow funders to try a lot more different potential solutions, but without putting too much at stake. You know, because you know what you want to do. If you’re going to innovate, you need to fail. But what you want to do is fail small, not fail. Yes. All right, well, we got to take a break. And when we come back and may and i were going toe, continue this about making the change and talk some about within your own organisation. Now incentivizing and and hiring text to give. They have a five part email, many course which is debunking five myths. Do you think that all text donations or small the captain like five or ten or fifteen dollars? Not true. Do you think there’s a monthly or annual minimum? No, there doesn’t need to be. There’s a good amount of misinformation around text e-giving, and you can break through that with this five party male. Many course end up raising more money. You get the email men? Of course. You text npr to four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. And now we’ve got several more minutes for lean impact. So in may, um, anything just is there one more thing you wantto share with with us about lessons that you say i d before we turn it to the non-profits doing the work and some of the incentivizing there one more thing. You can you want to share with us a ride? Um, you know, i think we were just talking about tiered funding and other mechanism that can be really effective is paying for outcomes. You know, looking at how do we incentivize outcomes rather than center vise activities? Because outcomes is ultimately what matters. You know, eric and his book talks about something called vanity medicines that are these absolute numbers that we all used to say we’ve reached or touched or helped, you know, a million people on dh, you know, this is plastered all over mt profit and foundation web sites in terms of trying to give people some sense of what they’ve done. But those numbers are meaningless because it just says, like, we’ve done stuff, we’re good at raising money. It doesn’t say whether we made a big difference in those people’s lives. And it doesn’t say whether another organization with the same resource is could have done even more on. So you know what eric encourages us to do. It would mean impact talks about is moving away from these vanity metrics to actionable or innovation metrics that are at the unit level that look at what is our conversion rate. Are unit costs our success rate because when we can optimize for those types of those unit level metric. Those are the things that are going to make a big difference over time. All right, and this. So this creates thoughts, foreign fodder for conversation with you’re funders, potential funders. And also, of course, for foundations themselves to, you know, to try to rethink. I mean, maybe, you know, experiment yourselves for our foundation listeners with with an organization or two in some of these, some of these very different with with some of these different funding methods obviously more detail in the book, you gotta get the book. Let’s turn to the to the five a onesie three’s themselves. You talk a good bit about incentivizing around this around lean impact and the adoration and the testing and learning talk some about incentivizing. Sure, what i see is because innovation is hard in the social factor. I do see a lot of non-profits these days talking about innovation and wanting to innovate. And usually what ends up happening is that innovation is something that gets bolted on rather than built in on by bolted on. I mean, you know, organizations tend to, you know, either run a contest or a hackathon or a pilot, or they could, you know, hyre like an innovation person or a small innovation team, and these things are usually off to the side. They’re not part of the core operations of a non-profit, but something that they can kind of highlight in issue. Nice press releases about, but go on business as usual with ninety nine percent of what they’re doing. And so if if you really want teo, so what? The result is that we see all these kind of pilots and all these contests and flashy ideas, but very few of them making an appreciable difference over tonic. So if what we care about is getting to impact and transforming the culture and building a culture of innovation, we need to do that from the ground up. And i think that starts by establishing, you know, those ungracious goal something, you know, that we is measurable, that we continue to reference back to that we, you know, kind of reinforce, that is that is the north star for everyone in the organization to measure their own work against, you know, like vision spring to be. It asks the question. Is this going to get us to two and a half billion people. And so you need to start out with that goal because again, if you have a goal that is achievable with business as usual, there’s no reason for anyone to do anything different on then. Secondly, way need to create incentives that reinforced kruckel. Both reinforce the importance of taking risks and celebrate failure as well as reinforce progress towards that call, you know, on those innovation metrics. So if you’re able to reduce your costs, increase your success rate and so forth those air the metrics that really matter and get it into the goal on dso. Finding mechanisms that incentivize and incentives could be, you know, financial incentive. So they don’t have to be. They could be just you know what this leadership highlight when you have you know organization, you know, all all hands meeting. What? What do you highlight in your press releases? What are the you know who gets recognized? What are the things that you talk about in your weekly updates? So those incentives are incredibly important because they are what culture forms around. And then finally, once you have those goals and those incentives and you can look at where do you need to fill the gaps? In terms of talent? Do you need to bring in some other people who bring in a different skill set than you make might have the need to train your existing staff? Two. In some of these innovation techniques, that’s that’s sort of the last step into often. People make that the first and only step and don’t get a lot attraction. We gotta leave it there. Another book, another book you need. There’s so much more there you can follow and may she’s at and may its n n m e. I m not talking about ellie may from the beverly hillbillies and may so it’s not a y. It’s m e i on you find her book at and may dot com and may thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Pleasure next week. Consultant sarah olivieri with admonition, but also, of course, encouragement for small and midsize non-profits. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled twenty dahna slash pursuant we’re by wagner. Cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner cps dot com bye. Tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text. Npr to four four four nine nine nine right. Our creative producers. Claire meyerhoff sam liebowitz is the line producer, but today it’s by chris shows, social media is by susan chavez. Mark silverman is our web guy and this music is by scots diner, brooklyn, new york do with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Buy-in. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get you thinking. Cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative net. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor in santa potentially eight. Tune in every tuesday at nine to ten p. M. Eastern time and listen for new ideas on my show. Yawned potential live life your way on talk radio dot n y c. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Do you like comic books and movie howbout tv and pop culture? Then you’ve come to the right place. Hi, i’m michael gulch, a host of secrets of the sire, joined every week by my co host, hassan, lord of the radio godwin. Together we have over fifteen years experience creating graphic novels, screenplays and more. Join us as we bring you the inside scoop on the pop culture universe you love to talk about. Wednesday nights eight p. M. Eastern talk radio buy-in wife snusz. Did you know you’ve been playing poker your whole life, even if you’ve never played a hand of cards? Hi, i’m ellen lake and author of polka woman and host of the new show poker divas. On the show, i talk about poker. Strategy helps you win in business, life and love tune in live every thursday one p. M to two p. M. Eastern standard time on talk radio dot n. Y. C. You’re listening to talking alt-right work at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Are you a conscious co creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? Um, sam liebowitz, your conscious consultant. And on my show, that conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen, live at our new time on thursdays at twelve noon eastern time. That’s the conscious consultant, our awakening humanity. Thursday’s twelve noon on talk radio dot you’re listening to the talking alternative network.