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My Guest:
Deni Elliott: The Ethics of Asking
Professor Deni Elliott from the University of South Florida edited the book “The Ethics of Asking.” When have you got an ethical issue in fundraising and how do you resolve it? How helpful are the ethics professional codes?
We’ll talk about examples from the book and answer your questions. Use the #NonprofitRadio hashtag on Twitter, the Facebook page or this blog post to leave a question.
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Hello, it’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host. Oh feels good, very good to be back in the studio after three weeks hiatus from the studio. Oh, i hope that you were with me last week. I’d go into ischemia if i learned that you had missed getting to the next level. Lawrence paige nani is the author of the non-profit fund-raising solution based on his work as an executive director and fund-raising consultant, he had proven strategies to get you to the next level of fund-raising revenue this week, it’s the ethics of asking professor denny elliot from the university of south florida edited the book the ethics of asking when have you got an ethical issue in fund-raising and how do you resolve it? How helpful or the professional ethics codes? We’ll talk about examples from her book and take your questions. If you’re listening live, you can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio on tony’s take two five reasons to promote the ira roll over now i’m very pleased to welcome to the show durney elliott she is a director and professor. In the department of journalism and media studies at the university of south florida st petersburg, she holds the point there. Jamison chair in media ethics and press policy and is the campus on buds. She’s written more than one hundred and ninety articles and book chapters. That’s a hell of a lot hyre my bio, this the number of words i’ve written, this is very impressive. She has authored co authored, edited and co edited books, including ethical challenges, building an ethics tool kit, ethics in the first person and the kindness of strangers, philanthropy and higher education. Her writing and her thinking brings her to the show. Professor durney elliot, welcome. Well, thank you. Are you in florida? At the moment? I am yes. Enjoying the winter weather of southern florida. We’ve got the winter weather of southern florida appear in new york practically. Oh, that looks to warm up here. You do a lot of thinking about ethics and and fund-raising, um what? How can we distinguish ethics from long? I’m sorry. How going to sing? Which ethics from law? Law? Legal. Oh, from law. Yeah. You know, that’s an interesting thing. And i decided that i just do a lot of thinking about ethics in my position as department head i’m involved in fund-raising and one way or another to bring some sort of needed resource is into the department, and as i ran too, ethics centers it when a dartmouth and one of the university of montana, sometimes i once felt like a combination of smoke and mirrors. I’m pretty familiar with the day to day in down and dirty part of fund-raising too, so it’s not just a matter of thinking about it, but it’s a matter of thinking about what what one is doing in practice and how it differs from the law is that in philantech p and fund-raising blank with most of the other areas in our lives latto develop law defines a minimal standard that, you know, if you drop below that minimal standard, that you could be held accountable by by statute, generally for your actions. But ethics asked you to think beyond that ethics, asi to think about what’s the right thing to do in a hole. Fear of what ethically permitted actions the law is much narrower, as as you’re saying, there are lots of things that are legal, but wood transgress ah, standard system of ethics, i think yes, sir, my my favorite example is, is just a really straight for everyday example for all of us and that’s it. Now, if you think about about truth telling and lying, you can count pretty much on one hand the situations in which the law prohibits you from lying. You know, you can’t lie on your on your income tax forms and you can’t lie when you’re i know a witness on stay on the stand in court, but but for the most part, we’re pretty honest people. If somebody stopped me on the street and asked me, you know what time it no, it says, according to my my smart phone, i’m going to tell them the truth about the time is i know it’s a baby, i’m going to be truthful with my students and with my friends and colleagues and that’s all in the realm of ethics that no, that goes way beyond what the law requires me to do. Where does morality fit into this? Well, you know that that’s kind of a conversation, probably for maybe even a different kind of radio. Show in that er for more than two thousand years of western moral philosophy, we’ve been thinking systematically about the nature of how it is that people should and should not treat one another. Uh, the word ethics comes from the greek jessica, um, meaning custom or convention, or how we expect people to treat us and the word moral comes from mores again, the latin word for custom or convention and how we expect people to act. And so, you know, i guess what i’m saying is fundamentally there’s really not a difference between least between how i will be using today ethics and the word ethics and the word morals. But that was some people say, oh, well, morals has to do with religion or sex and ethics is what you do in the workplace. I spend a lot of my time trying to integrate our lives and make sure that that i can help people think about how to be the same good person, regardless of what role they happen to have on the moment. And so i tend not to make an arbitrary distinction between morals, morals and ethics. Some professors have over or some philosophers have over the past two thousand years and some haven’t okay, well, when we have those people on there were still living than they can make that distinction, but okay, thank you. And you’re and the topic of the book, the ethics of asking that we’re talking about is, is, uh, your concerns about how fundraisers persuade people to give, right? Yeah, i think that that that when we talk about fund-raising or actually let’s even talk just about the act of giving of donating one’s extra resource is note to create public good as that person sees it, that act is super auditory act it’s ah, it goes beyond what somebody is minimally required to do. And so i think that that when we are working with people who are doing acts that are above and beyond what is minimally respected, explore other assembly expected of folks in private and public life, that there are special considerations on dh special obligations that folks have toward the givers toward the folks who are donating. Okay, um, and we’ll talk about some of those special obligations. How does a person who is a fund-raising professional i know that they are facing something that is an ethical issue. Well, first of all, i think it was the following. Okay, well, first of all of us, everyday face and we generally don’t think about it because we don’t have to, i don’t have to think about it, he’s my example of the stranger asking for time or directions, i don’t have to think about, oh, do i want the light of this person or not? Of course, i’m just going to tell him the truth. And so i think that that’s the only time that ethical issues sort of come to our consciousness or awareness, is when we’re feel like we’re caught between loyalties or caught between expectations are caught between doing something that seems best for our personal self versus doing something that seems better for another, okay, and in those conflicts of loyalties, that could be us as individuals, as you said, or could be, our institutions also conflict, right, right institutions and what may be best for a donor, right? Fundraisers have an interesting complexity of obligations. Ah, fundraisers when my fund-raising role as department chair, for example, i have obligations to the department and to the university as a whole. But at the same time, when i put myself in a position of of trying to extract ueno rie sources from people who don’t, who aren’t required to give them to me or to the university, to the department, i i take on new and special obligations to them as well. All right, we’re going to talk about some of these obligations, et cetera. We take our first break, and when we come back, durney elliot and i will continue talking about the ethics of asking hang in there. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth? Seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss. Our coaching and consultant services are guaranteed to lead toe. Right groat. For your business, call us at nine. One seven eight three, three, four, eight, six zero foreign, no obligation. Free consultation checkout on the website of ww dot covenant seven dot com are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology no reality, in fact, its ideology over in tow. No more it’s time for action. Join me, larry. Shock a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the isaac tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business and family. It’s provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who wants a go what’s? Really going on? What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry sharp, your neo-sage. Tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com. For details. That’s. Ivory tower radio. Dot com every tower is a great place to visit for both entertainment and education. Listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com dahna welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. You should know that we are sponsored by two companies, responded by rally bound, which is peer-to-peer fund-raising for runs, walks and rides and also welcoming new sponsor t brc cost recovery. Getting your money back from phone bill errors and omissions and i have a little more to say about both of them toward the end. Um, denny, you don’t mind if i call you danny wright is not to be professor elliot does it? No, denny is fine. Tony. Thank you. That you edited this book. How how does that work with you? Everybody else does all the rating, and then you just say we need some commas and paragraph breaks. How does that work when you’re oh, i wish i think it would look like actually, after editing some books and writing some books on co authoring some books, i i’ve decided that that actually being sole author of a book is probably the easiest route out of all of those. How does this work? Yeah, well, with editing a book, basically. Ah, the editor, you know, is in charge of the overall theme and the big idea of the book, as you know, an ethics of asking. There are a variety of chapters on different aspects of fund-raising, including plan giving and prospect research and and, uh, friendraising, i think, is what i call it, but the right and so as editor, i was sort of in charge of the overall idea finding the right people, teo, to write or collaborate with me on specific chapters and ah, and then actually, the tough part is getting them to get things done on deadline, and then no writing the writing, rewriting and revising chapters so that there was, you know, kind of a flow to the book so that it feels like the chapters go together even though they were written by different people with different backgrounds and different ideas. Okay, i did get that feeling alright. So that’s your responsibility as the editor, i thought, thea, i thought the company that i thought the book publisher would do that for, you know, that’s you no book publishers don’t do too much these days except actually get them out and with any luck to a little marketing. Okay, um, we’re this fund-raising that we’re talking. About fund-raising is essentially building relationships, so your concerns they’re around how or some of your concerns around how professional fundraisers are going about that. Yeah, you know, and that that happens in so many different levels. I’m thinking, all right, for example, was planned giving that no, i most fundraisers would really like to tap into, uh, into funders who have an opportunity to buckley’s states or, you know, some of substantial, uh, capital or or property, and that is usually brokered by by an external third party. You know, an investor, an attorney, somebody who is both represents the interests of the giving client as well as works with split with potential sites for the gift. And so, you know, hell of what the relationship is between the organization that serves to benefit and the the middleman, the third party there is often a point of conflict prospects. Research can can be a an ethical issue in that i know from, uh, from my days not just at this institution, but other institutions of higher education that i never met with a potential donor without having a whole dossier on that on that donor andi on what are development office had decided the person was capable of giving on much personal information regarding that person, and and i always felt a little uneasy in that it was not clear to me. I mean, it was clear to me that that that as an agent on behalf of the organization, i certainly shouldn’t say mr so and so, you know, i don’t know if you are aware that i’m aware of, you know, of your three divorces, et cetera, et cetera, you know, i mean, i knew better than to do that, but at the same time, i thought, you know, what would he think if he knew that i had all of this information on him and was just not telling him that i had it? So that’s the prospect research level, and then there is the relationship level? Aziz aziz, you know, people give to people, and so the idea of building a relationship with potential givers is an important piece of it. But i think it’s really easy for for potential givers to misunderstand the intentions of a fundraiser, i think it’s easy for fundraisers to move into what i would call a seduction phase and that may or may not be true sexual seduction, but but the but the move from fund-raising where the giver potential giver and the development person are both working with common interests for the organization is a different matter, i think, ethically speaking, than a situation in which the fundraiser is trying to woo the potential. Geever wow, there’s so much there that you just laid out planned giving is the consulting that i do and have done for sixteen years, prospect research way have a regular contributor on the show. We talked about prospect research once a month, maria simple and the relationships you know, that is hitting home because i’ve been a fundraiser for sixteen years and buy-in planned giving you no, you deal with people who are often in their seventies eighties and often we don’t or widowers, um and, you know, sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s hard, i mean, i’ve been, i guess let’s talk about the last of the three things that you just laid out that’s, the one that hits the home it’s almost poignantly for me. Bonem you know, i’ve been in in lunch situations i don’t like to i don’t like to meet prospects over dinner and andi, i know that we’re going to talk about language, and that term prospect is a little off putting to you, and we’ll get to that. So i’ll say so. I’ll adopt your language on dh say i don’t like to meet donorsearch prospect, potential donors over dinner. It’s just something you know, that evening hour just feels like it’s over there over the line from a sow, but i do like to intimate yeah, that’s right? Dinner is more intimate can be and you wantto eliminate any possibilities of that. So always lunch. But i do like doing over meals. I do like meeting latto potential donors over meals and clients over me like that because there’s a shared were sharing, we’re sharing a space were sharing a meal we might depending on the person we might actually be sharing an appetizer sometimes that’s not too often, but sometimes so there’s that sharing of the physical space and the and the activity around at the other physical space also it’s a flow that we all know, we all know that the server is going to bring water and then i’m going, i’m going to always ask for water with no ice because that’s my, you know, so, but once we get that over, then the server is going to leave us with the menus, and we’re gonna have a few minutes and then we know the servers going to come back, and then the stuff is going to bring the starters, and then the servers going toe clear those and bring the entree and we’ll, you know, we’ll have about five minutes or seven minutes or so between the starters and the entree starters ending in the entree. So there’s a there’s a a common understanding of the flow, as well as the sharing of the space and sharing of the meal, right? And what? And actually one of the things that i’m hearing you say in this and if you don’t mind sort of picking this a part of it, but the but there are a couple of things that’s going on that are going on there, that when you’re in a situation in which you’re, you’re asking some buddy to do something that they don’t have to do, which would be a potential donor, that that one of the things that that you’re that you’re doing is setting up a scene that has a comfortable and known flow in ritual, and so the idea is that is that is that you don’t have neither you nor the potential donor have to think about the context, and so it creates comfort and and i’ll say it shared intimacy in the fact that you’re both comfortable with that. Now, if you’re meeting somebody over a meal who is coming at at this from from a different culture where it may be that that the rituals are not quite the same or a little at odds, um, it would be fun and exciting, but it’s going to be a different feel than something where you know, where you’re meeting with somebody from your same culture and where you know that the ritual is is well known. The other thing about meeting over a meal is that there is something no metaphorical and symbolic about the idea of eating, of nourishing one another. If you’re picking up the check, you are certainly nourishing, you know, you’re feeding that that person and that that is, um it is a highly symbolic act of, of nurturing and caretaking and so what you’re what you’re doing is showing the potential donor that that you’re going to take good care of her, you know, in the process of this transaction, you’re also making a very strong point that this is not it’s, not a business meeting. I mean, if i need to sit down with somebody and i know that there’s something difficult to talk about a meal is really not the place to do that well, okay, now, something difficult that requires privacy, right? Although i would say in new york, i know some restaurants that have quiet spots but still might still the potential donor or the donor, but i might even be thanking someone, so it might not be asking someone to consider gift, but i might actually be thanking someone on behalf of the client, but but, yeah, there are situations where i wouldn’t but yeah, and if it’s, if i know it’s gonna be a difficult conversation, then i wouldn’t do it in any public place restaurant otherwise, but i think you can do business. You said it’s, not a business contacts, but i think you can do business over a meal. You don’t think so. Handed business over a meal, but it’s a different but it, but it creates a different kind of of interaction and different kind of relationship. I’m just as an example, if i have a graduate assistant to or a graduate student who is obsessing over her thesis at the moment and this in a tough spot, i’m very likely to take her for a cup of coffee and we’ll sit and have a cup of coffee and talk about the situation, but just the fact that i’ve gotten her, you know, in a company in a comfortable place, i’m nourishing her, giving her, you know, getting her a cup of coffee, and we’re sharing that that sustenance together is going to create kind of an openness and a readiness that is different than if i’m meeting with a student about a problematic grade in my office, you know, there’s that i’m creating a different context, and so when i want a student to sort of relax and the opens and, uh, you know, i have be more ready to listen to what i have to offer. I’m going to feed them something? Yeah, okay, that’s what i’m suggesting you’re doing. With potential donors, yeah, you’re suggesting that i’m duplicitous that i’m no, no, okay, i know it sounds like i’m a little like i’m a little devious, this is no, okay, i mean, i do think that fund-raising get get friendraising gets devious, and i really would like to talk about that specifically, but don’t take it since i’m not a marine, and i know i’ve been called that for some devious, no, but but it sounds like you’re suggesting that some people do it for a different reason than the reasons i’m suggesting i do it. Actually, i’m suggesting that you’ve got all the right instinct. What i’m saying is that this is some of your behavior, so wait say that again, i’m sorry. What say it again? I don’t know what i’m saying is you have all the right instincts, the fundraiser that you want to get the potential donors someplace where the person feels relaxed and comfortable sharing something with you and is getting something from you, which which which automatically that creates a response of giving back? Yeah, that’s the part that i don’t think of the that i’m giving to them really with the organisation’s. Dollars? I’m not the one personally picking up the check, but that’s the part i’m not thinking of that i’m giving to them so they should be giving back. I think this, you know, does this come down to character? Some people might some fundraisers might take people out for meals with that intention with that thought that i’m giving to them, they need to give back so it doesn’t just come down to personal character. How s it? No, i excited. I don’t think so, because and i think and i think that what you’re saying is is that you do it just because you’re a naturally good guy, which i certainly believe you are and that and that that’s a matter of character. Where is people who do this intentionally to manipulate the donor? You know, get the donor glass wine letter, you know, feel, relax and, you know, and so on that maybe there’s something that shows less character in that i would say that every phone great fundraiser has the responsibility to think about how every professional act is perceived and or is likely to be understood by the potential giver that’s very helpful, i think. We have we have just a couple minutes before, before we take another break, i would. We solicited questions from listeners, and we got a bunch. I’m goingto i’m going to throw one at you from that we got from facebook. This is kelly on facebook. You’re in the middle of a capital campaign, and the organization’s plans change. Your executive director thinks the changes are no big deal. Do you notify donors who committed funds to the original plan or follow the executive director’s lead, which would be keep it quiet. Well, first of all, i think that i would wonder about an organization that that changes something significant in a kapin radcampaign midstream that no one hopes that a campaign doesn’t get announced until about fifty percent of the money is raised or pledged, and that no, that that pretty much every every detail has been tested out. Ah, in-kind on a variety of audiences first, but but okay, but so you find yourself in that situation, i think that that that any donor that has made a contribution that if the, uh, thean tense abila donation can’t be met, that there is unethical and probably in most places, a legal obligation to make it clear to the donor how things have changed and obviously moving forward, you need to be honest about where things are now and where they’re going. We’re going to take a break when we come back. Tony’s take two got some live listener love and more conversation about the ethics of asking with durney eliot, stay with us e-giving didn’t think dick tooting good ending things, you’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving get in good. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications? Then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight one eight three that’s two one two seven to one eight one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way look forward to serving you! Hi, i’m ostomel role and i’m sloan wainwright, where the host of the new thursday morning show the music power hour eleven a m we’re gonna have on shine the light on all aspects of music and its limitless healing possibilities. We’re going invite artists to share their songs and play live will be listening and talking about great music from yesterday to today, so you’re invited to share in our musical conversation. Your ears will be delighted with the sound of music and our voices. Join austin and sloan live thursdays at eleven a m on talking alternative dot com you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Durney hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. So glad to be back in the studio because i can send live listener love new york, new york, new bern, north carolina rest in virginia, houston, texas live listener love out to u k beck is checking in we got montreal and palma role maybe i pronounced that very badly, but you’re in quebec if your income back and you’re not in montreal. Yeah, that’s the name that’s the year that yours is the town that i’m trying to pronounce. Welcome, of course we’ve got listeners in china chung ching shanghai ni hao, seoul, korea always checking in always appreciative of korea annual haserot and there’s more live listener love coming tony’s take to my block this week is five reasons to promote the ira roll over now for your donors and potential donors who are seventy and a half years or older. This ira gift opportunity ends on december thirty first. It’s been extended a couple of times, but i wouldn’t bet on congress for any purpose, including charitable giving being extended, so i’m not too optimistic that this would be extended again. So let’s assume i’m assuming with all my clients that it’s going to end on december thirty first. It’s. A very easy way for donors who are the right age to make their year end gift to you. It’s. Very easy to promote, and i’ve got promotion ideas on the block. It’s also easy for donors to execute. They just fill out a simple form that there are a custodian, has. All they need is your organization name, address and tax i d number and that’s, part of what makes it so easy for you to promote. Not a lot of explanation. If you have potential donors who are the right age, i suggest you work the ira e-giving opportunity into your year end fund-raising plan and there’s a lot more detail on that. On my blogged at tony martignetti dot com, that is tony’s. Take two for friday, fifteenth of november, the forty fifth show of this year. Denny, do you mind if we take another listener question? Of course not. This came from booster advisor on twitter. What are your thoughts on hosting fund-raising event for people you don’t know who experienced a tragedy booster advisor, the person maybe thinking about maybe people in the philippines or something like that, any issues around raising money for people who you don’t know who you know of suffered i, uh, you know, and i’m not exactly sure what’s behind the question, so that may take a couple of different stabs at it, i think it’s fine to raise raise funds for people who have experienced trauma, traumatic events, wherever they are in the world, and i i think that that there are often questions about how those funds are being managed both in country as well as in the process of getting them from donors here. So i mean, so assuming that that the management details are worked out, i don’t see a problem with doing that. Uh, so i guess i’m kind of searching for what other? What, what other ethical issues there might be? Okay? You don’t you don’t really see this as that much of ethical. Issues, i mean, that the way the medal i see that the management problem management and legal in terms of management of funds that are intended for charitable purposes, the law has a fair amount to say about that, okay, right, right and well, and i know i’ve done not very popular work on breast cancer charities and how how money money is, well, how it doesn’t support services that are being implied, although maybe not, and not specifically said, and how, uh, breast cancer charity websites make it very easy donate and very difficult to find services. So the, you know, i think that that that one can raise money legitimately for any number of things. But i think that the process of fund-raising encourage an obligation to the potential donors that that money is going to be managed appropriately as the donor’s intended, and that the donors are very clear on what percentage of the money is actually going towards the charity as compared to take administrative cost. Talk about this use of the term prospect which, as i mentioned you, you have you have a chapter in the book devoted to language. What is it about that? Term that turns you often, and you prefer a potential donor. Well, it sounds like mining on, and i think that that when we, when we separate people by a label, whether we call them human subjects, i also do a lot of writing on research ethics and when we refer to people as human subjects that we’re putting them in a class that’s different from, um, no, those of us who are doing the research, those people who are actually doing the work and when we talk about potential people who are potential donors as prospects that that again, we’re setting them off it’s been in the class that that makes it easier to do things to them that we wouldn’t do to our appears for our family members are so sort of objectifies them exactly there no longer people were going that farm, and wei will know that there’s still people on? Yeah, i mean, like i was thinking of your human human subjects, we’re not referring to them as people were medical researchers going them human subjects, but in fund-raising i don’t know, i think, were warmer people over here on the fund-raising side than the medical. Well, you know, and be really honest, a lot of the work that i’ve done on on problems with charities and nonprofits and social service agencies start with the premise, but when people think that that they’re doing good things because they’ve got a really good and that they’re working towards that is raising money for an important cause that that that’s when the warning bell should begin to go off because we knew organizations traditionally don’t take a careful look at charities or fund-raising because, you know, it all sounds like it should be warm and fuzzy and the thing and it’s good people doing good stuff for the good of society. I mean, how many goods can you get in one sentence? Now, i believe that that people who do development work and i believe that people who work in non-profit tend to be pretty good people because they’re not in it for the money, so i didn’t appreciate that, but, you know, but it’s, the whole path to hell is paved with good intentions. That gets to be a problem that when folks think that they’ve got a really important end that are really important, you know? Cause that they’re trying to support sometimes they then the rules just because they know how, how good and important the causes that they’re working for. It’s it’s kind of an ends justify the means argument there’s a line in the movie the big chill that rationalizations are more important than sex try to get through the week without a good rationalization. You’re s o yeah, stretching the rules for a very good cause. When we’re talking, maybe about you mentioned breast cancer or hunger, we owe our working with disabled it’s it’s it seems pretty easy to do right well and and let me know you had said something before break about about whether i was at saying that you’re a devious, which i wasn’t in that case, but but let’s talk about deception for a minute, just because this is one of those areas where in my work over the years with with development folks and, well, fundraisers from from various sectors, not just higher education that excuse me, start that, that this is one of those areas where people think, okay, they’ve got a potential donor, and i’ll just bring an example that that just comes to mind from a capital campaign is a matter of fact. Some some years ago, so there was a ah a ah, a donor potential donor providing a whole lot of money for for a university to have a building built that would carry her her husband’s name, her dead husband’s name. And you know, and that was great. That was all. Everyone agreed completely with that. But this woman also really, really wanted a family fountain in a particular spot on campus. Well, they, uh the that the fundraiser working with the that actually they were more than one fun, but the development people who were working with this potential duitz donor i knew that in the no long term scale of things, that that where this woman one of the fountain was not going to be was not going to last more than about ten years, because if you look down the line, you know, there were other buildings that were going to go up on campus and this pristine spot that she loved and her husband had loved. I was not going to be that christine spot anymore due to the age of the donor the folks at the university this decided that that this particular donor would most probably be long gone by the time you know, the campus changed in a way that would make her unhappy. And so they decided that it was safe just to let this this potential donor believe what she wanted to believe. I find that unethical because, again, this woman is it was doing something that a super aga, torrey it’s something that is that is ethically ideal to use different language, she’s doing something that she doesn’t need to do. And i think that there’s a special obligation of the organization that would take her money, um, to make sure that she knows and really understands everything that she would find relevant to the giving of her gift. Damn, i think i would i don’t know that one that one really shakes me. I i would like to think i would quit over that if i was on that development team, and we were told not to reveal that the fountain isn’t going to last more than ten. Well, but why? I mean, she’ll never know the difference. It’s just wrong you she why tryto be more a little more articulate, that’s just wrong because she’s making a gift under under a set of assumptions and conditions that that the other side knows are false. That’s why it’s it’s almost. I don’t know if it rises to the level of legal fraud in the definition of fraud on statutes, but i know it gets pretty close to me if it does. If it doesn’t exceed that it doesn’t cross that line, i think that’s ah touching on fraudulent well, actually, and the the and the way that it was laid out in this particular situation. I mean, thie the building was going up with the husband’s name on it, and it was going to be a lovely building. And i know a lovely and permanent mark on campus for sure the fountain was by far, you know, a smaller, you know, seemingly incidental, not very important gift, at least from the university’s point of view, and they know they were going to put the fountain in. They just knew that the that the woman thought that the fountain would live on forever. You know what? Where they’re understood it wouldn’t yeah, they know something that the woman doesn’t that’s. That’s that’s ah, meaning in contract terms to me that’s a material term that the organization is omitting now i’m taking it out of the ethical and putting it in the legal. But to me that’s a material term that they’re omitting like to me, that would be the same as you’re renting an apartment and there’s is there’s lead paint on the walls and you don’t reveal that that’s that’s. Okay, gideon, this scenario because it’s the same kind of issue that comes up but it but it’s a very different set of facts. So we have another donor and the the ah ah, the donor, you know, wants to give money for the university, and it understands to be kind of old school and, uh, really doesn’t believe in co ed dormitories. Now, for any number of reasons, the university knows that no, that before long, even though there’s no specific thing on the books right now. But before long, all the all the dorms on the university will be co ed. And so no again does that is that information that has to be given to the the potential donor, you know, it’s it’s a change that that every university is making and some folks, in fact, some people at the particular university i’m thinking of. I said, well, you know, we can’t deal with all of the prejudices of all of our donors. And we can decide what’s relevant for the donor to know and what’s not. We got to go away for a couple of minutes more. Danielle. It stays with us, and i hope that you do, too. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Dahna podcast pleasantries going out to everybody who is listening to the podcast, wherever that might be from whether it’s, itunes or or elsewhere. There’s podcast dot d lots of people listening to the podcast in germany wherever you might be listening to the podcast pleasantries out to you more live listener love pompano beach, florida tustin, california welcome, andrx, les france i hope i did that well, bonsoir we’ve got germany listening live you’ve got kuwait listening live you got the netherlands listening live and i did come back yes live listener love to all our live listeners podcast pleasantries wherever and whenever you might be listening to the time shifted show denny, i’ve got some more, some more this inner questions that came in i got one from this’s from rory asking about corporate branding. How much of a charity’s brand is it ethical to sell? She puts selling quotes to accompany we might be comfortable with logos and branding at fund-raising events. But to corporate logos have a place in, say, university classrooms. Yeah, i think that’s ah, that’s. A really good question. And i would come down to me particularly are now just at ticket from hyre. Education, although i think we’re going extrapolated from that. But i think that the core mission of an organization and i know that’s what sound naive, but i think that that should remain pure in a certain way. That is that one should be able to conductor the mission of the university without having corporate brands on everything associated with the mission. But that is okay, teo, to brand things that air external here’s an example at my university in my department next year, we are starting a new graduate certificate program and food writing and photography. Now we are not selling the sponsorship of that program, but at but we do have an annual food conference of no culinary of communication conference that’s associated with that program that’s open to the community every year, a half day seminar and that we definitely are seeking sponsors for and so if there is, i think, a sense of ancillary sponsorship, but now, but it gets complicated because if we look at breast cancer charities no, it again, a zone area of where i’ve done some particular research that we have situations in which which some breast cancer charities exists because of their, you know, their corporate sponsorships and the relationship between the charity and the corporate sponsor becomes so tight that individual donors are often left out in terms of not understanding the importance of people, giving in a true philanthropic way that is now just to promote the common good. And that sometimes folks in need of service is that air being touted by the charity get left out as well. Have a related question about taking donations from organizations that are not not in direct contradiction to your mission but still have or may be perceived to have negative impact on society, the person asks says there are some cases that are obvious, like cancer charities not taking money from tobacco companies. But what about navigating gray areas on dh like arms manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies? She also suggests oil, oil pipeline companies are there right ones issues around us. Yeah, i think that that again gets problematic and the mawr complicated or society gets the more problematic it is. I do appreciate cancer charities that that no won’t take tobacco money, for example, but at the same time if they take pharmaceutical money from certain pharmaceutical companies, pharmaceutical companies are owned by chemical companies, which released carcinogens into the air. And so the question is of like, well, how far back are you willing to go? And i think that really what it comes down to for many organizations, is that it’s a matter of public perception, that if there’s no, if we can’t cancel charity doesn’t want to take money directly from eddie ah, now an organization that’s known to be cancer causing. But if you take it back one or two generations in terms of of no corporate ownership that nobody knows, i think that that’s not okay, um, i think that, um, that there should be limits in terms of of, um, of no donations that people take, but i think that that needs to be stated, because when we come to individual donors in my experience, uh, fundraisers and charities are quite willing to take money from folks, whether they, you know, just want to give out of the goodness of their heart or whether they’re giving for the tax break or whether they’re giving to, you know, re pay back some private since so so if an organization is going to refuse money on the basis of, uh, of how that money was made. I think that that needs to be stated clearly and transparently. We have to leave it there. Durney eliot, director and professor in the department of journalism in media studies at the university of south florida st petersburg durney thank you so much for me. Yeah. Funnel by your lunch. It’s been a real pleasure. No, no, no, i’m not i’m not putting myself in a compromising situation. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next week, karen wooster is executive director of wreaths across america. They have grown their volunteer support enormously by being hands off and supportive. We’re gonna talk about you’re building that volunteer base. Maria simple is back. She’s, the prospect finder and our prospect research contributor. We’ll talk about the disk assessment tool to figure out whether your potential donors are dominant influencing steady or cautious disc. Personally, i’d like to be all for those. So i wonder if i can manipulate the assessment. Our sponsors rally bound is a sponsor. They make simple, reliable peer-to-peer fund-raising software friends asking friends to give to your cause. You get a discount as a non-profit radio listener you can find them at rally bound dot com or just call and talk to joe mcgee he’s the person who will answer your questions and give you advice on setting up your campaign. And i’ve met their ceo. I’ve told you before shmuley pinson, you can reach them as i said, rally bound dot com or triple eight seven six seven nine zero, seven six welcome to t brc cost recovery our newest sponsor, youself rabinowitz, is ceo there, so we have ah, sponsors yourself wuebben with smelly pinson. Sam labbate liebowitz on the board muzzle toph, i love this. Yo steph! What he does is we’ll go over your past phone bills looking for mistakes, and when he finds those mistakes and he does over ninety percent of the time, then he fights the phone company to get your money back, talking about errors, services you didn’t order and what all you also finds is well above market pricing and gets you the money back and you only pay him if he actually succeeds. If he actually gets cash back, otherwise you don’t pay him. I’ve known yourself for close to ten years and i have many times referred. Friends and clients to him, and i’m very comfortable referring him to you, it’s, tb, r si dot com or two one, two, six, double four, nine, triple xero, which could also be six, four, four, nine thousand, but i like two one two, six, double four, nine triple xero. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is our line producer shows social media is by deborah askanase of community organizer two point oh, and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. This outstanding music you’re hearing is by scott stein. I hope you’re gonna be with me next friday, once, two p m eastern at talking alternative dot com. E-giving denting, tooting, getting dink, dink, dink, dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Get in. Cubine are you a female entrepreneur? Ready to break through? 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You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Dahna i’m the aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent fund-raising board relations, social media, my guests and i cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio friday’s wanto to eastern talking alternative dot com. Are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership, customer service sales, or maybe better writing, are speaking skills? 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