Nonprofit Radio for August 16, 2021: Virtual Events & Design For Non-Designers

My Guests:

Evan Briggs & Gwenn Cagann: Virtual Events

Evan Briggs and Gwenn Cagann share their lessons from 25 virtual galas, which include takeaways for your next hybrid event. They’re both with Wingo NYC.

 

 

 

 

Josh Riman & Mike Yamagata: Design For Non-Designers

Wrapping up our 21NTC coverage, it’s a crash course in good design, covering fundamentals like color, type and hierarchy. Step outside your comfort zone with Josh Riman and Mike Yamagata, both from Great Believer.

 

 

 

 

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[00:00:10.74] spk_5:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:13.06] spk_4:
non profit

[00:02:17.44] spk_1:
Radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of interception if you blocked me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show virtual events. Evan Briggs and Gwen Sagen share their lessons from 25 virtual galas which include takeaways for your next hybrid event. They’re both with wing go N.Y.C. and designed for non designers Wrapping up our 21 NTC coverage. It’s a crash course in good design covering fundamentals like colour type and hierarchy. Step outside your comfort zone with josh, Lyman and Mike Yamagata, both are from great believer. This week’s conversations are from 21 NTC and they wrap up our coverage of the conference and tony state too, sharing really is caring. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue. Let’s get started. Here is virtual events. Welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 NTC, you know what that is. It’s the 2021 nonprofit technology conference. We’re sponsored at 21 NTC by turn to communications Turn hyphen two dot C o with me now from wingO N.Y.C. our Evan Briggs and Gwen Sagen Evan is digital fundraising and client engagement manager and Gwen is director of special events fundraising. Welcome Evan. Welcome, Gwen.

[00:02:23.64] spk_2:
Thank you. My

[00:02:25.41] spk_1:
pleasure. Uh, why doesn’t one of you? Uh, well, I’ll pick otherwise everybody was so polite. You work together and nobody will talk and then I’ll end up having to pick anyway, So, Gwen, uh, since you’re both from window N.Y.C. why don’t you acquaint us what lingo does.

[00:03:00.44] spk_2:
Thank you. Wingo is a small fundraising communications and design firm. Um, we have and call ourselves a boutique because we’re so small. We’re 12 people and we specialize in working with nonprofit clients, although we do have some corporate clients, but nonprofit clients that work in the social justice sector. Um and that’s probably about 70% of what we do and the remaining 30% or arts and conservancies and we help nonprofits with their individual giving and major donor fundraising and their special events.

[00:03:14.34] spk_1:
All right. And we’re gonna talk about special events. Um are where are each of you in each of you? In N.Y.C.

[00:03:21.94] spk_4:
I am in new york city.

[00:03:23.84] spk_1:
Okay. Where where what

[00:03:25.64] spk_4:
part? Um in Manhattan Health kitchen specifically.

[00:03:28.26] spk_1:
Alright, 9th and 10th of

[00:03:30.39] spk_4:
What? In between 9th and 10th on 49,

[00:03:52.14] spk_1:
Lot of good restaurants. Uh, 9th of from like 43rd and 44th up to like 55th or so, roughly 50, maybe 53. Some a lot Outstanding restaurants all along, 95. I’m envious of your food choices. There’s everything from Afghan. The Zimbabwe is on 9th. I think there was like 10, 12 blocks or so.

[00:03:58.44] spk_4:
Yeah, exactly. And it’s like almost feels like europe now with all the outdoor dining, they’ve completely shut down some streets and it’s just quite lovely.

[00:04:07.40] spk_1:
Right, right, so not ninth that they didn’t close. 9th of though, have they?

[00:04:11.10] spk_4:
Not 9th at but the side streets

[00:04:20.84] spk_1:
that go off of it. Right, right. We need folks need ninth, they have to get to haunt tunnel every day, Lincoln Lincoln, I should say in your neighborhood Lincoln tunnel every day. Gwen all right, so gwen, you’re an outlier, you’re not an N.Y.C. Where are you?

[00:04:24.94] spk_2:
Um I am actually, although I, when I’m in the city, you know pre pandemic in Boerum Hill Brooklyn. Um and right now though I’m writing out the pandemic in Jackson Wyoming, we have a small family place out here and I came out for a week vacation when things went isolated and haven’t left.

[00:04:44.94] spk_1:
Yeah, the week vacation that, that hasn’t ended yet in over

[00:04:47.72] spk_2:
a year in the great outdoors.

[00:04:49.84] spk_1:
Yeah, cool. So your window, your window Wyoming?

[00:04:52.84] spk_2:
Exactly and we have a window India to right now one of our graphic designers is based in India where she was writing about the pandemic and so we’re worldwide.

[00:05:06.84] spk_1:
Okay, that’s strictly N.Y.C. alright, your Boerum Hill. So you live in Boerum Hill. Yeah. Remember the park slope food co op by any chance

[00:05:13.62] spk_2:
know, but a couple of my colleagues are half of us live in Brooklyn and yeah, so I know it’s changed a lot during the pandemic with the work hours and such, but what a great place.

[00:05:57.74] spk_1:
It is a great place and I’m still a member. I live on the beach in north Carolina. I’m still a member of park slope food go up. Uh you know, they suspended the, they suspended the work requirements for the whole year. Now, they’re just slowly getting back into the member work requirement, but it’s optional for several months. And you know, I don’t know when I’ll be back up, but uh I maintain my membership in the go up because before that you could bank your shift, you could do, you could work a bunch of months. Uh you could work a bunch of shifts like in a week or even in a months and have them for subsequent months for many, many months. So I never lived

[00:05:58.31] spk_3:
in a community.

[00:06:27.74] spk_1:
It’s a great, it is great community park slope food co op shout out. I’m gonna be one of the most distant members. I mean north Carolina, you know, it’s not, it’s not easy to get there, but it’s, I keep my membership, it’s still worth it. All right, so we should be talking about your N.Y.C. you’re not your window N.Y.C. topic, you’re 21 ntc topic, which is a virtual events for the masses inclusive and interactive gatherings, Evan, what what is this all about? You’ve got uh you did like window did like 25 virtual galas in 2020. What you’ve got lessons for us.

[00:07:21.34] spk_4:
Yeah, we um, we quickly pivoted to uh throwing virtual events for our clients. A big part of our business, pre pandemic was was in person events, big Gallas and even smaller donors cultivation events and our firm learned quickly how to transform that experience into a virtual experience. Um, and we’ve had great success and continue to have great success um, with the, with the virtual events. Um you know, we create a space virtually on a platform where folks can gather and interact and have a really sort of intimate moment with, with the charity and we’ve found that fundraising has met or exceeded all of our, all of our goals um, for each of our clients and yeah, it’s, it’s something that we think is here to stay and you know,

[00:07:31.69] spk_1:
why is that why are virtual events going to continue when we can return safely to in person events?

[00:07:37.84] spk_4:
Um, I think people just learned that there’s, there’s so much benefit to having a virtual event. Um

[00:07:43.63] spk_1:
you know,

[00:07:44.32] spk_4:
one of the most obvious reasons is that so many people can, can gather

[00:07:47.87] spk_5:
um from

[00:08:17.54] spk_4:
all over the world and you know, the, we suggested to all of our clients that they make these events free to join um and then still offer sponsorships and other ways to donate. One of the big moments that we always have in each of our virtual events is what we call our live ask. So there’s still a moment where, you know, at a typical gala, there’d be a paddle raise or live auction. We’ve adapted that to a virtual moment and you still feel that energy and get to, uh, you know, have a night of successful fundraising with, you know, sometimes up to 1000 people, sometimes more.

[00:08:48.94] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. So remaining remaining relevant virtual events and uh, so I gather you have a bunch of, a bunch of ideas, like some new, I don’t know, maybe their new best practices or tips tools, strategies for successful virtual events. Is that, is that right? You’re gonna share a bunch of what you learned, how we’re going to bring in some, uh, inclusivity as well. Do I have that?

[00:10:17.94] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ll jump in here. I mean, you know, add on to what Evan said, um, that inclusivity by making it open to a broader range of people, not only your major donors that could afford that $500,000 dinner ticket when we were in person, but also everyone staff clients, People that benefit from the work of the non profit organization, really just reinforce all the positive things about your organization’s community. So the major donors feel great because they’re actually getting to interact with, as I said, some of the people that are benefiting from the programs and you know, it hits home in a really different way. You also get to grow your list. So all of those and we’re saying that, you know, somewhere between twice as many and three times as many people register for these events as you would get in the room. So let’s say you had a 400 person gala at Chelsea piers, see the dinner, you could get a, you know, 800 people registered for your event, usually about 70% of those actually tune in that evening. Um those are 300 new people, you know that you can, you know do some research on prospect with them if they come to the event, they now know about your organization, and so you know it’s a great way to grow your list, it’s really hard to grow your list in in real life, it has been traditionally and so that’s when big benefit in addition to this, just community feel and people really getting to know your organization and be interactive with it.

[00:10:27.99] spk_1:
All right, Gwen, let’s stay with you, let’s get into some ideas that you have about producing successful events. What should we start with?

[00:13:46.24] spk_2:
Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest things is with virtual events is to be creative, there is no one cookie cutter way to do it for all in our opinion, you know, we do, Evan can talk later about some of the platforms we use if that’s going to be relevant to this conversation, but you know, we have a platform that works, but it’s really flexible for whatever program the client wants to put on and, you know, we highly recommend not just translating, you know, speakers at a podium to the virtual world. We want to make it much more engaging and exciting, fast paced dynamic. Um and so one of the biggest things we like to do is a little bit of what we’re doing today, have your speakers in conversation, and that could be honorees in conversation with someone who would traditionally present them in the world world, but it doesn’t even have to be that formulaic or formatted. It can be um an honoree in conversation with an expert in the field of what, you know, let’s say you’re doing immigration or foster care work, who are those experts in the field, let’s work them in because that’s a big part of what your audience is going to be engaged in hearing from. Obviously if you can get some celebrities, it’s wonderful. Um we do find that we’ve been able to get yeses for more celebrities in the virtual world than we did in the real world. I think part of it is because um even though there’s an event day that we stream on this event, we do pre record most of it, that’s the, you know, behind the scenes real life um reality. Um we primarily do that because we want to ensure a seamless experience. Um and prerecorded can still be totally relevant, totally topical. Um you know, during the heights of the pandemic and the craziness of the previous administration, we did end up when there was some, something crazy in the news, we did end up re recording, say um an executive directors piece, very, very close to the event because something relevant happened that, you know, we don’t want to be tone deaf about. So anyway, pre recording really helps as well. And then it helps again with those high profile people, whether they be on res or donors, um you know, who you want to get speakers or celebrities because um you know, you can do it around their schedule. Um also we just find that some very many of these high profile people who may have had just insane travel schedules, you know, our were more available and certainly, you know, had such a big urge to get back. So that was a big piece of it. Um the other um thing that we highly recommend is to share the record and share the event. You know, use it more than event day. You can either, you know, distribute it via your blast on your website through um, you know, as the full piece, which is great to do, but then also, you know, create some video clips um and share those unsocial and wherever you can for the relevant audiences. Uh and then I guess the last big piece and and maybe this should be a whole section of conversation today is looking to the future and hybrid event. So you know, depending on when you want to fit that and we can talk about that as well.

[00:15:28.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They help nonprofits like your nonprofit tell compelling stories and gain attention like attention in the Wall Street Journal, the new york Times, the chronicle of philanthropy and lots of other outlets. You’ve been hearing me name, Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to virtual events. I love the idea of recognizing that you’re honorees and celebrities are so much more available for a virtual event and pre recording to, to present during the event. Um honorary, honorary timing can be a bet. Yeah, I’d love to be your honoree, but you know, I’m gonna be in new Zealand that week so I, I can’t do it. But you know, you could record from new Zealand or we can record from your home six weeks in advance. You know, it’s very good, very good point. Maybe that’s obvious it’s probably obvious to those of you who are doing events. Uh, I’m a lay person. I’m just, I’m learning this for the, for the 25 minutes or so that were together. So you spend your time studying this. Um, is that all the, the Evan, is that, is that all the strategies be creative pre record, you know, try to leverage celebrities, celebrity availability, honoree availability, share. Repurpose. Uh We could talk maybe about hybrid any any other tips though before we move onto platforms and resources.

[00:16:27.74] spk_4:
Yeah I mean one thing just to add on to the prerecorded tip is you know we do also Sprinkle in um some some live moments and you know and we and we do that strategically so we do reinforce that feeling that this is happening live throughout the event. And then you know we often will have our live moment directly in the middle or in the first half sometimes we’ll open up with a with a live em see that’s another great tip for a virtual event is to to have an EMC who can tie everything together, who’s really energetic um who can end you know can also interact with guests as they’re chatting. Um That really uh we found that the chat is crucial which is um which is why the platform is so so important when producing a virtual event. You know, we uh made a decision not to do our events on our most of our events on zoom because people are you know a little zoomed out and zoomed fatigue.

[00:17:08.54] spk_1:
We’re gonna we’re gonna get we’re gonna get to the platform. Um but the interesting it sounds like you need some you need an M. C. With a little higher higher capacity because all the moments are not gonna be scripted ideally because like suppose there’s a technical glitch, you know you want an EMC who can make fun of it be flexible not get flustered because you know they have to do a little tap dance for for a minute or two while you figure out the back end problem or something. So it sounds like you need a and see a little more uh yeah bring a little more to the game. Yeah that’s

[00:17:45.14] spk_4:
that’s ideal. I mean we you know we’ve also worked with with folks who aren’t professional M. C. S. And part of window service is we are day of support so we on that back end are all on a conference call you know in a headphone in the M. C. S. Ear in case one of these you know glitches happens or we need to communicate something or you know we just had a $75,000 gift. Um So you know really another beautiful thing about ritual events is that they really are you know opportunities for everyone, you don’t have to have a professional EMC does help you know but not required.

[00:18:19.74] spk_1:
It sounds like great fun. I would like if you if you ever if you ever need of an M. C. I would love to do something like that. Uh You seem great. I would love it. I love the flat. I mean I’ve done improv, I’ve done stand up comedy but I’m not trying to give you my resume but it just sounds like fun, it could be great you know, there’s a great energy and you got the producers in your ear, helping, you know, coaching through and, you know, and then you you’re on your wing it for a couple seconds, or like a great gift announcement, Whoa, you know, bring that person up, whatever. All right. Um All right, so what’s the, what’s this cool platform? That’s uh supersedes zoom.

[00:18:28.94] spk_4:
Well, there’s, you know, there’s a number of platforms, The one that we’ve been using primarily is called demio. Um it’s

[00:18:29.69] spk_1:
a

[00:19:07.54] spk_4:
demio demio D E M I O um it’s very intuitive, it’s beautifully designed. You can customize it. The chat function is, you know, very easy to use and fun, you know, it’s not it’s not hidden. You can use emojis, that’s another great thing for this. Um for the chat is the use of emojis or GIFs, um, ways to express an emotion, right? You can also tag people um, so you can speak to them specifically. Um and we’re seeing that, you know, more and more of these platforms are popping up and increasing and that interactivity element more and more, but Demi has been our preferred platform

[00:20:08.74] spk_2:
and the other real important, really important reason. We started with demio and then just Evan and our other team members do a lot of research. Probably weekly on what tuck has changed, you know, should we stick with this or try something else and they keep reinforcing that, this is the right one, but what I was going to say is that there’s a real ease of registration for people, you know, for guests coming to the event and that was really important to us. Well in the beginning zoom was you know, sometimes if you didn’t have the latest app you wouldn’t have the audio or you know it was difficult, I know zoom is really smooth out, but still this is easier than the zoom app, people literally put in their name, their email address, they get a unique link to click on reminders, come to them a day ahead, three hours ahead, 15 minutes ahead, they click in there in and the unique link is nice too, because then you don’t have to worry about someone getting in and zoom bombing or what have you, so you know it really is sort of a great gatekeeper, gatekeeper and really easy to use and then for those producing the event um what we don’t want to forget is that it’s incredibly great for uploading our content, switching between live and pre recorded um going to that live text to pledge moment that have been referenced, so you know, there’s some real advantages to delivering a seamless event as possible.

[00:20:41.84] spk_1:
Gwen, would you just reinforce it please and just spell demio again?

[00:20:45.12] spk_2:
Yeah, I d like dog e m I O demio

[00:20:49.52] spk_1:
alright, thank you, thank you.

[00:21:13.44] spk_4:
And one thing I will, I’m sorry, I will just say is that sometimes what we’ll do is tack on a zoom after party to radio events. So to me is sort of like the main event. This is when you go and you see and you hear and you fundraise and then, um, we, you know, even auto directs people to the zoom afterparty. If that is something that you’re planning, um, where folks can actually get on camera and see each other, we can, you know, do a toast. We’ve done dance parties. Um,

[00:21:55.84] spk_1:
you gotta move on. That’s cool. I love the idea of the after party though. Cool. And after party for virtually all right. Um, you know, we’ve had, I’ve had a bunch of guests from ntc talk about inclusivity. Uh, so I’m gonna, we’re gonna, we’re gonna pass that part with the three of us. But I would like to talk about communicating with these new supporters, Gwen, that you said, you know, you could end up with hundreds of folks that wouldn’t have attended your, your, your in person event virtually obviously because they can come in from all over the world. Uh, we just have a couple minutes more left. So what’s your advice around engaging folks who are new to your organization? First time was is this terrific demio based event.

[00:23:45.94] spk_2:
Yeah, exactly. Well, what we are finding to that many of these new uh, guess, you know, become donors that night they donate in the text to pledge, which is just the first step. And so of course the biggest thing right away is acknowledging and thanking and then, um, which happens right after the event. Every donor to the text to pledge and to the event. You know, anyone who’s, who’s donated any amount, um, pre or at and then post event when we do send out the full event recording, we do give another opportunity to text to pledge. And then, yeah, it’s the thinking. It’s just the ongoing blocking and tackling and cultivation. So, you know, we would add those people to our clients email list. We would include them in our newsletters are ongoing e blast. Um, I will say, you know, we would recommend that the organization screen and rate their new donors like, you know, a traditional, you know, fundraising approach. Let’s take a look at these people owe somebody gave us $1,000 that night. If they give us 1000, there’s probably a lot of capacity there. Let’s do a little more research. And for anyone who’s a real real major donor, um, they should get thanked more personally. So maybe the executive director reaches out after the event and thanks them or you know, has a virtual coffee with them down the road. But you know, just slowly inappropriately. You know, seeing how interested they are in the event and see how you can engage them down the road both as a donor, maybe as a board member, maybe as a volunteer. If your organization has a lot of volunteer opportunities, but you know, just to engage because they came and they got involved.

[00:23:50.14] spk_1:
Can you say a little more going about what to do maybe in the the days following the event that that first, that first follow up opportunity, can you drill down a little more?

[00:24:12.64] spk_2:
Yeah, exactly. We highly recommend a post event. He blessed the exact day after or you know, if for some reason you did an extra day um, within within a couple of days of the event to thank everyone for coming, share the full event, recording with your list. Anyone who both signed up to come but didn’t tune in and are your list of who didn’t sign up to come because now you can see it right? People are busy and while we are experiencing an increased number of people joining these events, there’s obviously a lot of people that just can’t on a given day. So you know, that post event d blast is really important. And again, to give one more opportunity to give to the event and support the work and then sending those, thank you an acknowledgement letters that actually are, you know, the official tax letter that people can use in their, in their tax taxes, um, with any donations that have been made. And then just, you know, I’m going um, can be staying in touch with donors. Um, you know, we recommend that, um, that people use e blast, you know, at least you know, monthly, um, and social posts to stay in touch with donors and then ideally maybe a quarterly newsletter. And then if it’s appropriate, if you can segment your list enough, even some special donor communications a couple of times a year to those most major donors that are a little more inside re

[00:25:26.15] spk_1:
okay. Okay.

[00:25:27.94] spk_2:
And when we can get back into it cultivation events, you know, we love having, you know, pre pandemic and we’ve actually got a couple tentatively scheduled for the fall. You know, that would be outdoor. You know, like a person who has a building with a rooftop, you know, invite, you know, a small group of people to gather and hear from the executive director of the program. People about what’s new and what’s been going on with the organization. We feel like there’s a lot of pent up demand for that.

[00:26:02.14] spk_1:
Don’t feel the events don’t feel the events. All right. Evan. We just have a minute or so left. So why don’t you just leave us with some last minute motivation,

[00:26:39.84] spk_4:
um, motivation for virtual events. I would say do one, do one, do one. There’s, you know, the world is really your oyster. Um, start with developing a run of show that is less than one hour. That’s, that’s the time that we, um, recommend. And just think about the story that you want to tell and then the folks that you want to tell it. Um and you can, you can produce a virtual event on any budget um and you know, do it within three months even less. Um it’s something that you won’t regret and it will live in perpetuity.

[00:26:58.84] spk_1:
All right in perpetuity. Well nothing is better than that. That’s Evan Briggs client and digital fundraising and client engagement manager at window. N.Y.C. along with Gwen, Socgen, Director of special events fundraising also at wingo, N.Y.C. Evan and Gwen, thank you very much.

[00:27:07.77] spk_2:
Thank you. Thank you so much. tony pleasure all you about EMC

[00:30:35.54] spk_1:
Yeah, wait, let me get to my art show for our audience. Thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 Ntc were sponsored by turn to communicate, we should be sponsored by window with all these shout outs but we’re not. We’re sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o. It’s time for Tony’s take two sharing really is caring who can you share? non profit radio with may I make a suggestion Ceos Executive directors board members, non profit radio has proven to be valuable for these folks, I hear the feedback from them in this way it sparks conversations, it stimulates thinking, it broadens perspective, gives you something to think about. Maybe even and to talk about and then maybe even act on in your non profit so these conversations these thoughts often start at the leadership level so that’s why I’m saying ceo Executive director board member uh, I think last week’s Show is a perfect example of that. The performance improvement. Talking about the 360 assessments, 3 60 feedback ideal for leadership to think about as a method of performance improvement for for a team. Um, this week’s show, this week’s show more of an example of something that someone in leadership would share with the folks on their team that it’s appropriate for. So virtual events. Um uh, goes to the folks who are thinking about working on, not just thinking about, but who work on events. The design for non designers. If that applies in someone’s organization then they’re likely to pass it on that you know, every every shop can’t afford a design, a designer or design team certainly or even necessarily freelance consulting to help with design as you will hear my guests josh and mike say so in that case it’s leadership passing on segments, conversations that are appropriate to the folks that they’re right for. So C E O s executive directors, board members, they are terrific listeners. They get value from nonprofit radio do you know someone in one of those positions that you can share? non profit radio with, I’d be grateful if you do please sharing is caring, thanks very much for sharing. non profit video That is Tony’s take two now it’s time for designed for non designers welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 21 Ntc the 2021 nonprofit technology conference were sponsored at 21. Ntc by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C O. With me. Now our josh, Lyman and Mike, Yamagata, they’re both from Great Believer. Josh is founder and president. Mike is art director. Welcome josh. Mike Welcome from Great Believer.

[00:30:38.84] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks tony

[00:30:40.17] spk_1:
My pleasure. And josh welcome back to a nonprofit radio

[00:30:43.74] spk_3:
Happy to be back to timer.

[00:30:53.14] spk_1:
Yes, we’re talking about the design designed. Your session was designed tips for the non designer. I’m actually gonna start with you mike as the designer as the art director, we can actually do this. We can, we can instill some some degree of design in people in like less than half an hour.

[00:31:05.44] spk_0:
We can. It is possible. Yes. Uh, there’s just some fundamentals and you just have to know it and where you go.

[00:31:22.04] spk_1:
All right, we’ll see where we go. Right. My extent of my design is symmetry. That’s all I know. That’s all I can do. If you go to my yard outside my yard, it’s symmetric. Uh, if you look at my, I don’t know, you look at my furniture, it’s symmetric. Um, when I draw something, it’s a house with a roof and there’s a window on each side of the house, so straight symmetry.

[00:31:33.81] spk_3:
No chimney.

[00:31:34.99] spk_1:
Maybe you could help me? Part of me was that josh?

[00:31:38.03] spk_3:
I said no chimney on that house.

[00:32:00.34] spk_1:
No, because that would be a said, well, I have to put it right in the middle. Usually a chimney is off the side so that would mess up place metric get all right. Um, All right. So let’s go to the non designer josh. I mean, you’re not, you’re the, you’re the chief of this, uh, uh, design company, but you’re not necessarily a designer. You you feel confident to that we can do this.

[00:32:27.94] spk_3:
I do. I’m the ultimate non designer because I started the design agency and I have no design expertise or experience or clout of any sort or kind. Um, mike is nodding and it’s very true. And this session is for people who work at nonprofits who did not intend in starting about non profit to do design work. Maybe they’re Occam’s associate or they work in the marketing department. And suddenly one day someone says, hey designed this flyer design the social media graphic and they’re like, I don’t really know where to start, but our our session is about how those people actually can be designers and they can learn some pretty straightforward basic fundamentals to improve their design and to improve it. Starting today after they listen to this session.

[00:33:08.54] spk_1:
Absolutely. We’re gonna take a day to give some thought to the session to the podcast and then uh, start, start the day after, start the day after you listen. And of course, you know its design tips for the non designer. It’s not great design for the non designer. So, you know, this is not like those ads, those early Photoshop adds years ago, I’m dating myself but you know, take a Photoshop course and you’ll be a great designer. We’re not we’re not advocating that Photoshop even still exist. Mike, is

[00:33:12.22] spk_0:
this still a thing? Okay.

[00:33:16.74] spk_1:
All right. So, um let’s start with some fundamentals. I feel like we should start with the art director. What are some design fundamentals

[00:33:52.14] spk_0:
of course? Um first one, I talk a lot about graphic design in general. It’s all about visual communication, Right? So that’s the whole point. So you want to create strong uh design which equals strong communication, getting your message and ideas across effectively and clearly. And you need a few things to make that happen. And a few of the things that we talked about our session were four design fundamentals. Those are color typography, white space and hierarchy. So those are four of the building blocks. You know, there are more, we thought we’d start with those and I can talk a little bit about them if you want me to or

[00:33:59.64] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s a little it’s a little about each one. Yeah, just like we’re gonna

[00:35:14.54] spk_0:
build on these. Yeah, exactly. We’re building the building blocks. So color used to draw attention, communicate emotions, ideas, meetings without any text at all. So colour is a really powerful tool. Um typography, it’s just the style or appearance of text. You use typography to establish strong visual order. Also known as hierarchy. Readability. Accessibility. Especially for the visually impaired, you want to have strong typography and it balances out the overall tone of the design. Then there is white space which doesn’t mean white space, it means negative space. Right? So the space between the elements, you actually want to use white space as a design element. It helps with readability, prioritising content. Um kind of leading your eye from A to B. And then hierarchy is actually a visual technique where you’re putting all those three fundamentals together to create visual order. So it helps the user go from A. To B to Z. And it navigates you through everything. So hierarchy is kind of like um once you get all these three fundamental together you put those pieces together and then you get hierarchy. So those are the four fundamentals.

[00:35:34.54] spk_1:
I feel like I get I get I I see bad hierarchy uh like all the times you see a piece you don’t know where to read how to read it or you know or how to say the word that they made up or something? You know, there’s not enough visual clues to guide me through this new word or the peace generally like do I read up here or is this more important on the side or you know?

[00:35:39.74] spk_0:
Okay. Exactly. And that’s actually called cognitive overload, where your eyes don’t know where to

[00:35:44.92] spk_1:
look. It takes

[00:35:45.87] spk_0:
so much in, you know you only have so many seconds to retain it and then poof, it’s gone. So then you lose it, you know? So that’s the answer. So

[00:35:58.54] spk_1:
uh so now josh, how do we apply these fundamentals to our blank screen that were expected to come up with? Should we, should we design a sample piece? Should we be working with a, should we talk about a hypothetical piece or should we not do that? How do we, how do we apply? What what might just explain?

[00:36:12.63] spk_3:
Mm That’s good. That’s the ultimate question. I think it kind of depends what level of a designer you are. If you’re someone who’s already done some design work for your non profit, you’ve made a flyer, made a postcard, made a social media graphic. You can kind of look back at the design work you’ve already done through the new lens of colors. You know, Am I using too many colours typography? Is there a nice contrast here between the Fonz? I’m using um white space. Is this work? I’m doing too crowded. Is there no room to breathe and that all ladders up the hierarchy? Like mike was saying. So I think if you’ve done some work, it’s kind of time to do a little audit and look back at what you’ve done. I’m sure you’ve gotten better over the years, but there’s still probably room for improvement to communicate your message even more clearly.

[00:37:18.73] spk_1:
Let’s talk about some of the colors. What what some of the colors mean to me, red is anger or you know, but I’m the symmetric guy, so don’t pay no attention to what I say. I’m just, I’m just a lackluster host here. Um, say say either one of you, uh say something about some some basic colors and what they evoke.

[00:38:16.42] spk_0:
Sure, absolutely. I mean colors it’s tricky, right, because colors red represents danger. Stop. You know, it’s a cultural thing. So it’s, it gets tricky there. What we’re trying to focus on more is um, sometimes designers use formulas, so they use complementary colors which colors are opposite of each other on the color wheel or analogous colors, which colors are that are paired next to each other on the color wheel. Uh one of the really nice tips we like to say is use monochromatic colors. So what does that mean? That just means using one color, but changing the value or saturation, so light to dark or the intensity of that color. And before you know it, you can use one color and spread that into four or five different colours. Uh, so if you’re looking at, you have your own brand guidelines, let’s say you only have a certain amount of colors or you can really get a lot of mileage out of using one color. So those are a couple of things we’d like to use. But yeah, color can definitely use to draw the attention to bullseye into an area to lead each other areas. But we like to start with the basics. So yeah, those those formulas really help people.

[00:38:28.42] spk_1:
Let’s start with some or talk about some of those brand guidelines as you just mentioned it. And that was, that was part of your, your session. What are these?

[00:38:37.92] spk_3:
I can take that one.

[00:38:40.92] spk_1:
it’s your non, you know, non designer. So you need to jump in whenever you can talk about something.

[00:38:45.01] spk_3:
I know a bit over here. Probably

[00:38:57.22] spk_1:
resented by everybody at the agency. Right? You have no guy even Why is this guy leading us? All right. I’m trying to cause dissension and great believer. All right Brain guidelines please.

[00:40:30.11] spk_3:
So every organization needs to have brand guidelines. The brand guidelines need to explain what’s your logo and what are different lockups of that logo? Is there a horizontal version? Is there a vertical version? It needs to describe your fonts, You know, what are the funds in your logo? What are your headline fonts? What your body copy fonts? And what colors do you have in your palate? What’s your primary color palette? Is their secondary color palette? Brand guidelines should also show dues and don’t for your logo. So for example, don’t change the font and the logo. Don’t stretch it. Don’t put it behind a different colored background. Don’t change the colors, things like that. So even if a non profit does not have brand guidelines, they should make them. We actually did a poll during our session, we asked all the attendees if your organization has brand guidelines and about, Let’s see about 85, said they do have brand guidelines, which is great. Um, and if they don’t, we said you should just go make some and you can make them literally in a Microsoft-word document where you just type out here are colors. Here are fonts, here’s how our logo works and then build on it over the years and make it a more expansive document. But it’s really important to have to make sure there’s consistent communication. So if the non designer at a nonprofit starts to utilize, let’s say another colour like Mike was saying, maybe you’re gonna explore a monochromatic color, a different hue of color in your main palette that should then go into your brand guidelines. So other people that pick up on your work, let’s say an external design agency uses those same colors and things feel cohesive. So we’re big believers in brand guidelines for consistency but also knowing that they can evolve over time as your brand

[00:41:11.01] spk_0:
evolves. Likewise. Yeah. And I’ll also like to say that brand guidelines, you know, they’re, you’re mentioning, how do you start, you know, how do you start designing something blank piece of paper? What can you do? Well, you really should look at your brand guidelines in there. There should be also samples of, you know what a poster’s should look like, what should a page and website look like. So these are all guys to help any designer pick that brand guy lines up and start to use it because it’s all about building and strengthening your brand recognition. And the first step is building that brand guideline and then following all of those elements and using them consistent.

[00:42:23.10] spk_1:
It’s time for a break, send in blue. It’s the all in one digital marketing platform that has tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional that you can afford and that keep you organized. It’s all about digital campaign marketing, most marketing software enterprise level made for big companies with the big company. Price tag, sending Blue is priced for nonprofits. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign to try out sending blue and get the free month. Go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for design for non designers. You have some software resources that are simple enough that people can use them but fancy enough that they can do the do the do at least some basic, some basic design like color topography, et cetera. Where should we, what can we start with? What is what’s the first resource that you like mike.

[00:42:38.40] spk_0:
Oh for me, my bread and butter was would always be creative cloud, which is Photoshop still a thing illustrator in design. Um, but also utilizing newer apps like sketch or sigma, which is more about web design. Digital focus materials josh can talk to more about that

[00:42:53.60] spk_1:
spell sigma pleases ph

[00:42:55.54] spk_0:
f uh f I G F

[00:42:57.66] spk_1:
a thick. Okay,

[00:42:59.15] spk_0:
big and a fig

[00:43:00.13] spk_1:
leaf. Okay. Uh,

[00:44:33.59] spk_3:
and I can, I can pick up on that because the tools that mike mentioned are for people who are designer designers and who are more advanced, they can use the creative cloud programs to design things from scratch. They can use figure sketch to design websites from scratch a tool that we love. And we actually use ourselves and also encourage our nonprofit friends to use those non designers is Canada and Canada is probably a very popular program at lots of non profits because first of all it’s free for most nonprofits to use. But it’s also very user friendly in terms of developing templates. So developing a template for a postcard or a flyer or business cards, something like that. It has a really nice web based kind of drag and drop interface that still lets you make things that are customized and fun and branded. So we think Canada is a really nice starting point because you can really do anything in there are session. We actually asked all the attendees, you know, what kind of design work do you find yourself doing most often? And social media was number one, but people said they do web, they do email, they do print. Um there’s so much you can do within Canada to create something that’s beautiful and still fits within your brand guidelines and your brand architecture. So we were big fans of Canada and something else. Speaking of email, male chimp, constant contact platforms like that, make it pretty easy to develop a blast templates that you can apply your colors to apply. Not maybe not your direct funds, but a font that resembles your font to make things still feel nice and feel cohesive and feel engaging. So we like those tools specifically for email blasts, but recommend can refer a lot of other design endeavors.

[00:44:54.59] spk_1:
Cool. Okay, even I’ve heard of Canada, I think it’s I think that’s pretty, pretty widely known, but I’m glad, you know, a little more detail. Um and you mentioned. So like Canada you can do the postcard template. So those those templates that you do could be part of your brand guidelines. Here’s our here’s our template for an announcing event. Here’s our template for whatever campaign postcard, etcetera. Okay,

[00:45:17.09] spk_3:
Yeah. And camp gives you these kind of starter templates. So it can say, you know, postcard four by six inches. So it gives you the the real estate to work with and then you can actually design the peace within it. So you’re not kind of crawling in the dark. It gives you a nice starting point. Okay.

[00:45:18.49] spk_1:
All right. I’m glad to see, I’m trainable. I’m glad to know that. I’m glad to learn that there’s there’s hope beyond symmetry. All right. Um, but we still got a good amount of time together mike. What what else? Any other, any other resources?

[00:46:03.28] spk_0:
George resources for color. Uh Good one is coolers dot C O C O L O R S dot C. O. What they do is you can start to pick and choose and make your own palette and create different color combinations. What you can also do is lock in certain colors. So let’s say in your brad guidelines, you have a blue or red and a green. You can punch those colors in, lock it and then just start to play and create different palettes around it. So I think that’s a really good resource to use for

[00:46:05.49] spk_1:
colours, coolers,

[00:46:07.03] spk_0:
spellers. Sorry?

[00:46:28.88] spk_1:
Yes, coolers. You said it coolers dot C. O. Right. Yeah, that’s yeah. Okay. Okay. Um um, say a little more about the sweet that you both mentioned. The that includes, um, Photoshop. Uh, what was the suite of, It sounds like a suite of three in design, Photoshop and illustrator, illustrator, illustrator. Yeah. What is that expensive for? For folks?

[00:47:09.28] spk_0:
It can be it’s a subscription based type deal. Now, before you could just buy it outright and then I get free updates, but now it’s a subscription based, so yeah, you’d have to pay monthly for it. Uh To me it’s it’s worth it because that’s what I use every day. Uh interesting what josh says if it’s feasible to have a whole team to use it um because I need to get multiple accounts for it. But yeah, illustrators mostly used for icon vector work, it’s actually drawing things out and making vectors out of it so you can scale it. Photoshop is used to retouch photos um and in design is mainly for printed pieces like brochures, laying those out books, magazines, china reports.

[00:47:16.78] spk_3:
Yeah, I’ll just say, you know, cost around 100 a little under $100 per license. So per per person to access these programs as well as others, a little under $100. And one thing might mention

[00:47:30.34] spk_1:
Like $100 per month per person.

[00:47:32.47] spk_3:
Exactly, roughly. Okay. Yeah. And this is still for like the kind of design or design or someone who’s a little more adept and skilled and has more experience in the design space to use programs like these that can really unleash their skills. And one thing mike said that I think worth mentioning, especially since tony you mention Photoshop before is a lot of non profits tend to use Photoshop for creating templates for let’s say for a postcard for a social media post. And we actually don’t recommend that Photoshop is really a photo editing tool and if you’re going to make simple templates, we definitely recommend Canada it’s a lighter weight, easier to use. Program Photoshop, it gets a little complicated files get big and like maybe you could talk a little more about Photoshop is not the right fit for that. We try to restrict Photoshop to photo editing, which is really

[00:48:31.97] spk_0:
its core purpose. You can get very in depth with Photoshop, but it’s not really needed. If all you’re making is a template for something. It’s a lot of times. Professional people retouch photos, video, all of those things. So yeah, completely not needed. Okay, canvas, canvas, canvas.

[00:48:58.87] spk_1:
Alright. Um All right. We still got some time, uh, techniques. You know, how to how to visualize, you know, like what goes on in this designer brain of yours. Like what what are you thinking about while you’re creating something? What does give you a little peek? That’s like that’s why I always sucked at math and science. I never knew what was going on in their mind. Like you show me how to do it. But what are you thinking about? How do you conceive

[00:49:57.57] spk_0:
of it? Yeah, it’s I’ll give you another peak. Um It’s it’s it’s keeping these fundamentals in check. But then also looking at the world around you, looking at type around you, looking at colors around you, look at how other people are doing it. You know, create mood boards for yourself? Look at other anything that gives you visual stimulation. Go for it. And it’ll kind of help the board. What’s the mood board. So, mood board is something that helps get all of your thoughts Home together distilled onto one board. So that’s photography style color type. You know, you start to combine certain things that you find work well together and then when you then you can step back and you see it as a whole, we call that a mood board. So that helps you visualize um creating systems or identities for for branding and design in general. So it’s kind of like one of the first steps you do in your inspiration process. Okay. But yeah, some of some

[00:49:59.78] spk_1:
other quick tips. Yeah,

[00:50:54.36] spk_0:
yeah, sure. We talked about color, but maybe we can talk a little about type type and white space. Um I think for everything we’re gonna talk about, you really want to keep things simple even for, you know, designers, we’ve been designing for years, keeping it simple is always the best way to go. So in terms of typography, maybe just pick one typeface and use contrast. So different weights, different sizes, but just keep that one, you know, font and you just kind of use that throughout your piece, you know, white space? Just making sure we call a reductive design after you design something, start taking things away, just take things away and see how that looks. Does it feel cleaner. Does it feel more legible or did you lose something, you know, did you lose some of that? Um and for hierarchy, you know, we use all these different devices in terms, But one thing we always try to keep in mind is, you know, the point is to have the user be able to navigate from wherever you want from the start to finish. So you want to really create strong visual hierarchy. So using type, using colors, Using that white space to your advantage, not giving too much clutter, not using too many colours, not using too much type, not using too many shapes. So just keep it really simple. I think that’s that’s really the best tip we can give.

[00:51:22.76] spk_1:
Do people read bold, heavier, bigger fonts first and then smaller funds after. Right? All right, so that’s that’s again, I’m just learning, I’m trainable. So that’s a visual cue, you can absolutely look to your first, then look here that we want you to read this other thing

[00:51:51.16] spk_0:
that’s the smallest. Yeah. Use it to your advantage. Use uh boldness, the size, hit it with a color, get people drawn into that and then pair it with something that’s calmer. Media sans serif. Uh, font sensors, meaning, you know, these two types serif and sans serif. One has a little extra additions to the ends of the letters. Sensory

[00:51:57.96] spk_1:
culebra is a sans serif and times new

[00:52:11.45] spk_0:
times roman is a is a serif. Yeah. You know, so, you know, just using using those things to your advantage. Yeah. Doesn’t matter. Go big. Um go big, go bold draw you in. Um, and then, you know, use type and then use all these other elements to avenge.

[00:52:48.75] spk_3:
Yeah. Just to add on to what mike was saying. I think the most important thing or a really important takeaway is to definitely use restraint when it comes to the number of colors you use the number of funds you use it. So often the case that we’re working on a project where are non profit partner will say we need to do this much in this small space and we say we can’t so we need to start to figure out what can be removed and still get your message across or do we need this to be a two page piece instead of a one page piece. So I think the big take away should be that sometimes you need either more space to get across your message or you need to take pieces out to do so in a way that sticks and gets people to take action.

[00:53:16.45] spk_1:
Okay. And Mike mentioned reductive design white space. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s soothing. It’s calming. You know, what about, you know, I assume this is valid practices to share the peace with other people? Absolutely. Are they reading it right? Does it upset

[00:53:19.71] spk_0:
them, et cetera, yep. What was it was like a B testing where you give two designs to samples? The same user base and then they, you know, then we can see which ones they gravitate more towards which one is more effective.

[00:53:50.85] spk_1:
A B of course, for for a broader audience. I was thinking just within your team. No, that’s absolutely what does this look like? You know, talk me through your as you’re looking at it. What are you thinking, things like that? All right. Um, All right. So there’s, there’s hope, there’s hope for the non designer. You’re not gonna get a fine arts course, you’re not gonna get a fine arts degree in in 25 minutes. Not profit radio but there’s there’s, there’s basic, there’s basics. Alright, Alright, we’re gonna leave it there sound all right,

[00:54:03.34] spk_3:
Sounds good.

[00:54:12.54] spk_1:
Okay there, josh, Lyman founder and president at Great Believer and Mike Yamagata, art Director at Great Believer. Thank you very much. Thanks guys.

[00:54:14.11] spk_3:
Thanks tony

[00:55:07.24] spk_1:
each of you and thanks to you listener for being with non profit radio coverage of 21 Ntc where were sponsored by we should be sponsored by Great believer with all the shout out. I’m giving you a great believer, uh, their design expertise, you know, But no, we are, we’re grateful to be sponsored by turn to communications turn hyphen two dot C o next week. It’s an archive show. I will pick a winner. Trust me if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O and by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in Blue,

[00:55:23.44] spk_5:
our creative producer is clear. Amirov shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm. Thank you for that. Affirmation scotty. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out

[00:55:42.34] spk_0:
and be great. Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for August 9, 2021: Performance Improvement

My Guest:

Heather Burright: Performance Improvement

Do you want to get the best out of your teams? That means getting the best from each player. Heather Burright recommends 360 Degree Feedback and she takes you full circle. She’s CEO of Skill Masters Market.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:02.84] spk_0:
Hello

[00:01:52.54] spk_1:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of inguinal hernia if I had to stomach the idea that you missed this week’s show performance improvement, do you want to get the best out of your teams? That means getting the best from each player. Heather Burr right, recommends 360 degree feedback and she takes you full circle She’s Ceo of skill Masters Market On Tony’s take two sharing, still is caring. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue, what do you say? We get started. I want you to know we have a shorter show this week, it’s gonna be about 35 minutes. Okay, here is performance improvement. It’s my pleasure to welcome heather Barr. Right. She is founder and Ceo of skill Masters Market Creating dynamic people centric solutions that drive business goals. She has 15 years of experience identifying core competencies that are needed to see real results and creating the learning strategies needed to develop them. The company is at skill masters market dot com and heather is at heather burr. Right heather, welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:01.64] spk_0:
Hey Tony. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:03.54] spk_1:
It’s a pleasure, absolute pleasure.

[00:02:05.31] spk_0:
We’re talking about,

[00:02:12.94] spk_1:
we’re talking about performance improvement and you use this tool called 360 Degree Feedback.

[00:02:16.34] spk_0:
So let’s start

[00:02:17.37] spk_1:
With the Basics. What’s an overview of 360° feedback?

[00:02:59.24] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. Um so 360° feedback at 360 assessment is a great way to get feedback. It’s exactly what it sounds like to get feedback with that 360° view. So you can invite people like your supervisor, your peers, your direct reports, um other colleagues or partners. And you can get anonymous feedback all in one place and then you have some good comparison data. So you can see how you’re being perceived. There’s also a self survey as part of that. So you can compare how you’re being perceived to how you’re perceiving yourself. And it just gives you really rich information so that as you start to think about what do I want to work on, where do I want to invest? My time, my energy, my resources. You have some really good data to work with it to help inform. That’s you can prioritize your professional development a little better.

[00:03:18.44] spk_1:
That sounds very interesting to uh compare what you think of yourself to what others think of you. Do. You have you actually been doing this many years? You see a lot of um disparities a lot of in congruence between self assessment and the assessment that others have provided.

[00:03:33.54] spk_0:
There there can be for sure. I actually with 360 assessment, I feel like

[00:03:38.25] spk_1:
living in deep denial. Maybe

[00:04:30.84] spk_0:
It happens with 360 assessment. I feel like how you show up to different groups of people can intentionally be different. So what your supervisor sees may be different from what your direct reports see or what your pure C. And that might be okay. So it’s about taking that information, finding those discrepancies, finding that alignment and then interpreting it for your own your own work, your own lifestyle and and how you want to be. You know, showing up to all of those different groups. I actually do something and it’s not for for today’s conversation, but I actually do something called an intercultural development inventory, the I. D. I. A qualified administrator for them. And that assesses intercultural confidence. And there’s actually I’ve seen a greater disparity in that assessment than in 3 60 assessment assessments which typically assess more general or more common leadership competencies.

[00:04:51.74] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So in the intercultural intercultural assessment, people perceive themselves as more aware, sensitive conscious than they are perceived by others, correct? Yeah. Alright. Not surprised

[00:04:55.72] spk_0:
we do that a lot. Right. We do it for me. That’s why, you know, we all think we’re

[00:05:01.97] spk_1:
well, we all think we’re great people.

[00:05:11.24] spk_0:
We do and we are right there. We all have great skill sets and things that we can offer the world. But I think if you think about your to do list, right. A lot of us will tend to put too many things on our plate and then we wonder why we can’t accomplish at all. It’s because our perception is not always matched to our reality.

[00:05:26.44] spk_1:
Yeah, perception and reality diverge greatly. Okay, that could be this could be fodder for therapy to

[00:05:29.44] spk_0:
uh

[00:05:47.24] spk_1:
but but when we’re gonna talk about coaching, because coaching, you know, you need I gather you need somebody to help you assess all this input that’s coming in and especially if you’re deeply divergent between what you think and what others think. You know, I can see how coaching would be critical so that you don’t jump off a cliff with these results.

[00:07:12.64] spk_0:
Yes, Absolutely. With 3 60 assessment, I recommend going through the assessment process which just helps to increase your own self awareness where you are, where you want to be and then working with a coach to help prompt you to action. So in the awareness face and you know, you’re taking this assessment process, it’s anonymous feedback. So it’s feedback that you’re not necessarily going to get anywhere else. Most people aren’t going to just walk up to you and say your communication skills are not as good as you think they are. So it’s feedback that you’re not necessarily going to get anywhere else. And it can show that those discrepancies in that alignment which is really, really helpful. It brings a lot of self awareness to the table. But then during that coaching session you can start to identify action, focus on the action that you want to take. So you’re able to identify, you know, which skills are most essential to your current role and how did you do on those skills or which skills are most essential to a future role if you want to look at it from a future perspective, I know I want to move into this other position and his other role. And so what skills are going to be most important there? What do I need to work on to get there? And so you can start to consider what you might need to leverage, what are your strongest skills are, but also what you might need to enhance as you move forward. And then those skills which are identifying with that coach can become part of a custom action plan that you have. So again, you’re able to prioritize your professional development a little more. Okay.

[00:07:35.84] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So let’s take a step back where we get a little ahead, but that’s okay. Um Where what’s the, Alright. So you’ve already said this is confidential. It’s anonymous. All right. So it’s it’s really the best information we’re gonna get. Um it’s from all different, all different networks, so it’s people that are lateral to you, uh, working for you. Who you work for could be others. I mean, I don’t know in non profits. Might you go to you go to board members If there’s a relationship there, if there’s some liaison work there or something,

[00:07:44.94] spk_0:
would you go

[00:07:48.24] spk_1:
to maybe donors? Would you donors, volunteers that the person is working with or is that really not appropriate to ask them to participate in?

[00:07:55.58] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve not seen anybody go to donors, but definitely volunteers. If you’re if you’re working with them in a capacity where they’re going to see those skills at play. If you’re not working with them in that way, they wouldn’t make a good feedback provider. Right.

[00:08:09.69] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So volunteers, donors that seems like a little much to ask

[00:08:13.38] spk_0:
for to

[00:08:22.14] spk_1:
rate the person that you rate the fundraiser that you work with or something. Okay, so let’s identify the benefits for the organization That would do a 360 assessment.

[00:08:56.14] spk_0:
Sure. Yeah. So what I love about assessments is that they are strategic but also compassionate human center. Right? So when it comes to leadership development, professional development is especially important. You want your leaders to be better. You want them to be stronger for your organization and you want them to perform well. So assessing on those common leadership competencies gives a baseline that is both relevant to their work into your organization and practical. Um, but you also, if you think about the human center and piece of it, um, your leaders also have dreams. They also have goals beyond just your, their role at your organization. And so by having the 3 60 assessment, you’re able to assess those things, those competencies that are important for your organization, but you’re also giving them some ownership and what they do with that information. And so they’re able to tailor the action plan that they’re going to get out of this. They’re able to tailor that based on what their goals are within the organization as well. So whatever they decide to do will benefit the organization, but it will also be tailored to them and so they will benefit themselves, you know, their own development as well.

[00:10:00.04] spk_1:
So, I’m gonna ask about some outliers, have you seen cases where the assessment was just so bad that the organization decided, you know, we gotta just let this person go, like we just we can’t, there’s no performance plan, there’s no action, there’s no action worksheet. That’s gonna that’s gonna that’s going to bring this person along. It’s it’s just hopeless.

[00:10:49.44] spk_0:
Yeah. So I have not. My recommendation is not to use it to use a 360 assessment in a punitive way. Um and so you would only use 360 assessment if there’s someone that you want them to develop, you want to see them develop and grow within your organization. Um and in fact I recommend that the results are kept confidential between the participant and the coach and that no one else actually gets a copy of those results. I actually get that request a lot at the board level. If it’s the ceo that’s going through um the assessment process. The board chair will will want those results. My recommendation is not to do it that way. Um I also get a lot of requests for the 3 60 assessment to be the performance review. And that’s also not a great use of a 3 60 assessment. You want to do the performance review separately and then one of their goals through that performance review process might be to complete a 3 60 assessment. But again, only if you’re really invested in them growing and developing as a leader, not as a way to sort of move them out of the organization.

[00:11:11.54] spk_1:
Uh, it’s counterintuitive not using the assessment as a performance uh, evaluation tool. What what why is that? Say? Say a little more about why that’s not recommended.

[00:11:23.74] spk_0:
Yeah, I think so. For me, I think giving the 3 60 assessment to someone that you believe in and you are valuing their contributions, you’re going to have a lot better outcome. They’re going to be more honest in the assessment process. Their feedback providers are probably going to be more honest as well. And then they’re able to have a good honest conversation with their coach and they’re able to kind of lean into that vulnerability without constantly thinking. I’m going to get fired. Right. It’s actually really good useful information to grow. Um, and I would recommend 3 60 assessments for star performers, um, you know, just as much as I would for those that you are looking to develop a particular reason.

[00:12:09.54] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, so how do we get started with this uh, in the in the organization? I mean, if we’re gonna suppose we’re gonna do this enterprise wide and that could mean, you know, 456 employees for some listeners, it may mean hundreds of employees.

[00:12:24.33] spk_0:
How

[00:12:25.66] spk_1:
do we start this? Yeah. Where do we start?

[00:13:34.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So every organization is different. They’re going to approach it in a slightly different way. Um, The I work with a vendor that hosts 3 60 assessments. So those assessments are already created, their standard, They exist for different types of leadership, so whether it’s the Ceo executive director or um whether it’s more of an individual contributor, individual contributor or something in between, they have assessments um that are tailored to each of those different um types of roles within an organization. So I would, you know, first look at how do you want to roll this out? A lot of organizations will start with maybe a senior leadership team um to show that there, you know, modeling what they what they would ask of their other staff and so they might start with a leadership team, have a small group, go through this process and then look at adding some additional staff to that. Um The only thing that you would want to consider really is um radio fatigue. So if in an organization you are going to be asking the same people to provide feedback to multiple people at the same time that can get a little bit fatiguing and then they might not be as honest or they might not take as much time as they go through the assessment because they’re just trying to get through all of them. So you want the Raiders, the people who are providing the feedback to feel like they have the time and um, you know, the energy to get through those assessments as well.

[00:14:15.84] spk_1:
Yeah. Because if there’s a lot of people at the same level and you’re evaluating your peers, right? I mean you could have to be doing a lot of these. All right. So how do you overcome that spread spread out the time to give them more time to do. I mean, I suppose you have to do six or eight of these things. It

[00:14:24.57] spk_0:
sounds pretty company. I would start with a smaller group and then as that group finishes, you could look at bringing in another group to complete the assessment.

[00:14:51.14] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, and then, so this is not something that sounds like it can be easily done in house. You’re saying you worked with a vendor that already has these these assessment tools published. It sounds like something that would be kind of hard to recreate in house and and do and do well.

[00:15:18.64] spk_0:
I think it depends on just the resources of the organization. There are really good off the shelf assessments where you don’t have to spend the money to create something that’s accustomed to your organization. You can a lot of um, a lot of the vendors who offer off the shelf assessments can also do custom assessments for your organization. But it’s it’s a fairly resource heavy project because you want to make sure that whatever gets created is statistically relevant. It’s a valid assessment and all of that. And so, um, to do that a lot of times, it does take more time and more resources to make it happen.

[00:15:32.84] spk_1:
What happens if there’s an outlier in the, in the Raiders, like one person rates somebody so high or so low compared to the other six or eight people that that rate, what happens to those outlier ratings?

[00:16:44.24] spk_0:
That does happen from time to time? You’ll have somebody who, um, you know, every question just about is really high or really low. Um, you know, I as a coach, I might ask the participant, um, if they have any thoughts about why that might be the case and we might have some conversation around, you know, why someone might be rating really high or really low. It is anonymous. So unless it’s the supervisor, they’re probably not going to know who said, you know who it is that’s writing them. It sounds like, um, but you can have some good conversation that way. Sometimes it there’s not, you know, anything that comes to mind that would make someone um be completely different than the other Raiders. And so, um, you know, you’re going to kind of go with the, with the theme across. And so if most people are reading you at a four and then one person out of one, um, perhaps that one person had one particular experience that they’re calling to mind as they’re completing the assessment. And so that’s causing those scores, that’s the person you

[00:16:54.48] spk_1:
keep their car when they took your parking space,

[00:16:56.81] spk_0:
right? You never know, you never know. Uh, So it’s information, but it’s not necessarily the focus because the theme is that most people are reading you in that for

[00:23:57.14] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, you’ve heard me repeat the list of recent coverage outlets. People are getting coverage and you can too, the Chronicle of philanthropy, the new york Times, The Wall Street Journal. There’s more, there’s more, you know, it includes Usa Today and stanford Social Innovation Review and the Washington post in the Hill. You’ve heard it, you’ve heard the recitation, you want coverage like that. You want to be in outlets like these nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. You can turn to has the relationships to get you noticed to get you coverage to place you when it’s your turn, they got the relationships, they can make it happen. Turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O. It’s time for Tony’s take two sharing is still caring, who can you share? non profit radio with I was thinking it could be a lackluster colleague or maybe somebody who’s in another nonprofit or you know, a friend works elsewhere who you just happen to know is not at the speed mediocre lackluster because we’re talking this week about performance improvement. So whose performance do you want to improve? That’s the person you refer to? Nonprofit? radio They need to be listening. They got to up their game. They don’t want to be mediocre and lackluster any longer and you don’t want them to be, especially if they work in your shop, they’re dragging you down. It’s like when you used to, did you ever wait tables? Those who waited tables if if you did and sharing tips? Oh, that’s the worst. It was just last week, I wrapped it up just just late july uh years ago waiting tables. And we shared tips. The mediocre people bring you down and you know who they are. You know, you can hear them at the adjacent tables, the adjacent station. I was always mediocre. At one thing I was terrible, worse than mediocre. I was always terrible at cappuccinos when somebody ordered a cappuccino and I had to face that daunting high, highly polished copper machine with the nozzle for the milk and the foam and the knobs and the gotta press the espresso in right and just the right pressure. And milk has to be the right temperature. And this this machine just scared the hell out of me. Just to look at the thing, I didn’t even like walking by it. Like I would, I would get we get we get sweats. Just walking past it, let alone I had to face off with the thing when somebody ordered a cappuccino or God forbid a table table of four or six. Yeah, well all around our cappuccinos. Oh my God. Every other table in my station is going to be half an hour late now while I fight with this machine to get the milk to the right temperature in the foam and the right consistency and the ooh, cappuccinos. My death. I really, somebody who wrote a cappuccino. You sure you don’t want a limoncello? Have a limoncello said on the house. Give the table around limoncello shows if you will, you alone will just not get a cappuccino. All right, That was my bane as a waiter. But so, so, but that didn’t bring the tips down because everybody got free drinks because I hardly reported once. I got smart. Of course the house didn’t like it, but they never knew. Um, so, you know, so the tips are actually, we’re better because I was given free drinks for everybody to bribe them away from a single cappuccino. So that aside the, uh, the sharing of tips, I hated it. The poor performers were always dragging us down. We’re killing us every night and I could hear them. You know, they’re low energy. They forget what the specials are. They read the specials off their little, their parchment paper, little little note pad because they couldn’t afford to buy a new one because their tips are so low because they’re so poor and they were going to drag me down with them. Well, first of all, I didn’t use the little, I used to memorize the specials. I never liked looking at that because the thing gets red wine spilled on it and you know, it’s, it wouldn’t get cappuccino on because I didn’t know how to make them, but it might get milk on it as I was trying. So the poor performers, the poor performers in your nonprofit, I’m bringing it back. I’m bringing it back. Don’t worry. Uh huh. You know, they’re dragging you down. So you got to refer them to nonprofit radio That’s it. You want to raise the level of all the boats? Wait, you want to raise the level of the whole sea, right? You want to raise, you want to, you want to raise all the boats. You’ve got to raise the sea. That’s what it is. Or the yacht basin. So your organization, you’re not profit That’s the yacht basin. You gotta, you want to raise all the boats. You’ve got to raise the sea, refer these poor performers to nonprofit radio That’s the point. That’s where I’m headed. All right, cappuccinos and limoncello. So who can you refer? non profit radio too. I’d be grateful. Remember board members to if you got any friends, their board members, board members are great listeners. They use it to stimulate conversation to stimulate thinking. Very valuable. Plus anybody who works for a nonprofit, naturally, thank you. Thanks for thinking about it. Who you can refer. non profit radio to that is Tony is take two. Send in Blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with the tools to help you build end to end digital campaigns that look professional, they’re affordable and they keep you organized digital campaign marketing, Most marketing software, huge price tag. Right? With that enterprise level. No, no. Send in. Blue is priced for nonprofits. You heard the ceo say it on the 5/100 show, there was only three shows ago. It’s an easy to use marketing platform to walk you through the steps of building a campaign. You want to try out sending blue and get the free month, go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for performance improvement and what form do people who are rated, get this information in? Is it something quantitative or is it narrative or both or what are they seeing? What’s each person who gets rated, seeing?

[00:24:44.04] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. So um the vendor that I work with particularly um and I think this is true of other vendors that I’ve seen as well. Um there is data that’s involved. So you will be able to see for each question how you were rated, you’ll be able to compare those scores by the different radio groups. Um a lot of times there is um an opportunity to roll that data up as well so you can start to see overall what are my strengths and my development opportunities. Um And then there’s typically something a little more qualitative included as well where people can kind of open comments provide feedback and you can spend some time looking at that as well.

[00:24:59.54] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um and let’s talk more about the coaching and the and maybe the work plan that goes along with improving areas that aren’t so strong um How long does that last or what does that look like?

[00:25:57.64] spk_0:
Yeah. So um the assessment process itself can take a few weeks just to get that feedback. You know, you can do yourself assessment, you’re gonna invite your Raiders, they’re going to go in, provide their feedback, is going to generate the data, the report for you. Um And then the coaching session you want at least one that I would say is the absolute minimum want right to go through that data. Um If you’re really looking to see that person um that participant make progress on their action plan, so we’re making progress toward their goals. Then I definitely recommend looking at a longer term relationship with that coach because they can start to become an accountability partner. They can continue to prompt them to action, they can continue to help them think through how they’re going to apply what they’re learning on the job. And so there’s just a lot of value there. Um I would say that about that um does vary by organization as well. Um But if you want to see you know those results um and see the action being taken. Um I would say at least three months um Probably longer to to watch that behavior start to change.

[00:26:29.24] spk_1:
Uh Tell us a story about an organization or it could be a person. Um I kind of like the organization level if you have a story like that, like what you saw, you know, you saw them go through this process and you saw improvement among keep people in the organization and they don’t have to be senior leaders. But you saw you saw improvement, you know, you saw a benefit come out of this whatever, eight months later, a year later, a year and a half later, you know share a little story.

[00:28:33.14] spk_0:
Yeah. So um For I guess for anonymity sake I can share my own story because I have been through the 360 assessment process myself. So I when I went through through 60 assessment process, um some of the feedback that I received was that I needed to use my voice more that I had you know, good ideas when I spoke up and that I needed to, you know, speak up more and make sure that people heard and valued what, you know, whatever it was that I had to say. And it was something that it was a piece of feedback that I found very interesting because I felt like in some environments I was pretty quick to speak up to, you know, take a lead in something, um to have my voice heard, and then in other environments I might be a little less likely to do that and just kind of depended on the situation, what I was in a lot of cross functional project teams at the time, so, you know, what was my role on that project, who was leading that project? That kind of thing? To me, it all felt very strategic about when I was using my voice and when I wasn’t, but with that feedback, right, that’s information. So with that feedback I was able to um start to think about how do I want to use my voice? And um when do I want to use my voice? And what would it look like or what would it feel like to be heard in in different settings. And through that process, I was able to um more intentionally start speaking up not just in meetings, but also um, you know, one on one with my supervisor and say, you know, hey, I’m interested in this or I want to know more about this or I think we should do this or whatever the case is. And I was able to start using my voice a little more intentionally and within the organization. Um, and saw from a, from a career perspective, saw my own, my own career start to open up and and grow quite a bit from that.

[00:28:51.94] spk_1:
And so the feedback you got wasn’t as nuanced as you would have, you would have thought it would be, like you said, certain situations you would deliberately reticent to speak up and others you were more vocal. But the feedback wasn’t that nuanced,

[00:29:31.24] spk_0:
correct, correct. Because if my if you think about like my peers, they’re seeing me in different environments or my partners, I was working on a lot of cross functional teams. So I had partners from all over the organization that we’re providing feedback. And so depending on which projects I was working on, I might have been leading the project or I might have been just a contributor on the project. And so depending on what my role was, I was showing up differently in those settings.

[00:29:46.54] spk_1:
Right? Each people, each person, so you differently. They didn’t they didn’t see the full breath. Right, all right. But overall you took it as I should speak up more, I should be more assertive I

[00:29:49.74] spk_0:
guess. Okay, Absolutely, and just think about how I’m being perceived as well, right? Within a within a meeting or a team,

[00:30:01.74] spk_1:
and then how about developing an action plan? Uh what what do you do that in conjunction with the coach, or how does that, how does that look? And how long is an action plan last?

[00:31:11.44] spk_0:
Yeah, so I recommend doing that in conjunction with a coach, at least on that first coaching call to have um something in mind that you’re going to be working towards. So I typically go through kind of the who what when where why, how questions. So you know, what is it that you want to do? What you want to focus on, which confidence e is standing out to you? Which area are you believing that you want to develop in some way? Again, it could be enhancing um are leveraging a strength that could be enhancing something that’s a little bit weaker, but what is it that you want to work on and then how are you going to do that? Are you going to go to a trading? Are you going to participate in a leadership program? Are you going to start listening to podcasts like this one about, you know, whatever topic you’re trying to work on, what is it that you are going to commit to to develop that particular skill? Could be taking on a different project at work, right? That, you know, is going to challenge that skill set. So um thinking through your options and deciding how you want to develop that skill and then also without putting a timeline to it. So when when are you going to start, um what are the, you know, milestones that are going to be along the way? How long will it take you to complete whatever it is that you’re deciding you want to do? Um and then from there, who who’s gonna help you, who’s going to help hold you accountable, we know that most people don’t just change automatically. So you think about the number of people who don’t follow through on their New Year’s resolutions, right? It takes more than just knowing that you need to change or even sometimes having a desire to change. And so who can help you, Who can be that accountability partner for you to make sure that you’re working on this goal? And again, it could be the coach, but it could be someone else as well. Could be a supervisor, it could be appear um a partner even and someone just in your life that’s going to help help you, you know, work towards your goals. And so going through some of those questions, you’re able to put together an action plan that includes things like that timeline, how long you’re gonna be working on it?

[00:32:27.04] spk_1:
What do we do for the folks who really just don’t take this feedback? Well, maybe there are strengths, but they’re not, they’re not acknowledging those, or maybe maybe they don’t have strengths identified. Uh let’s just say it’s objectively, it’s well, forget subjectively it’s taken as very bad. Forget how it looks objectively. The person has taken it very badly, very hard.

[00:33:18.14] spk_0:
It happens. What do we do, what we do? So, a skilled coach will probably do one of two things. They killed your coach, I believe I’m a school coach, but it still coach will likely do one of two things. Um, one try to on that call get to at the bottom of that feeling, basically what’s causing it. Why am I getting such a reaction from this information? Um, just trying to understand perhaps there is something that is triggering the reaction beyond just what’s on the paper, so to speak. And so having that conversation can actually sometimes move people into a new place, a better place to have the conversation that you actually want to have another option. And another thing that is still coach might do is just asked to reschedule the call because sometimes

[00:33:32.16] spk_1:
do

[00:33:32.76] spk_0:
reschedule the call the

[00:33:34.82] spk_1:
call. Okay,

[00:34:02.34] spk_0:
Right. Because sometimes there’s just something whatever it is, whether it’s a data point or a comment that has been included in the feedback, something just hijacks you and you can’t move past it in that moment. But that doesn’t mean that two weeks from now, one week from now you wouldn’t be able to move past that. And so sometimes having some space can can be really beneficial. And so just saying you know what sounds like this is not gonna be a good time for us to have this conversation. Why don’t we reconnect on Tuesday and then you’re giving them some space to kind of think through in process what they’re what they’re learning in the assessment.

[00:34:17.04] spk_1:
Okay. I can see how some people can take it hard.

[00:34:19.24] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely right. There’s that one comment in the comment just really

[00:34:24.61] spk_1:
maybe you’re even thinking I know who said

[00:34:27.10] spk_0:
that. I know who that was. He killed me. Yes. People spend time trying to figure out who said what and it’s not that’s not the point right of the assessment. And so helping them move past that can can be part of the you

[00:34:43.84] spk_1:
had people plead with you to tell you, oh come on. Who said that?

[00:34:49.94] spk_0:
Well as a coach, I don’t know who said it. So

[00:34:50.55] spk_1:
it’s anonymous to you.

[00:35:04.34] spk_0:
It is I might know for the for the data points I know which group it came out of and they do too, but not necessarily for the open field comments. Um And so it’s you know, you can think about this all day but it doesn’t mean you’re going to get it right. And then what if you do what then what you know what’s going to change for you? How are you going to use that information? So now I’m now I’m blowing

[00:35:14.18] spk_1:
this up. Like have there been cases of retaliation where somebody confronted somebody? I know you I know you’re the one who wrote this.

[00:35:20.72] spk_0:
I would guess somewhere in the world that perhaps that is the case, but I have not experienced. Haven’t

[00:35:29.32] spk_1:
seen that. Alright. No workplace blowups

[00:35:31.92] spk_0:
or confrontations

[00:35:37.94] spk_1:
Over 3 60 assessments. All right. All right. Um All right. What else, what else would you like us to know? We’ve still got we got some time left. What? Like what? I haven’t I asked you that you think folks should know about 360° feedback.

[00:37:37.83] spk_0:
Yeah, I would just add that. So I work with with nonprofit leaders to help them create scalable learning strategies and um, you know, oftentimes when there is some sort of learning needs some sort of professional development need we go to training and I create training. So I’m biased. I I like it. I think it’s a great solution, but it’s a solution. And I think pairing any other sort of professional development program, um like a training with a 3 60 assessment is actually even more valuable because if you’re able to assess your skills first and then say here’s where I need to improve, here’s where I need to focus. And then you send them through say a leadership training, they have that skill set in mind as they’re going through that training, they’re focused on that particular skill set, whether it’s you know, communication or relationship building or whatever, they’re focused on that, they’re going to get that out of it and then you’re going to see some really intentional transformation because they had the assessment process first. So when I think about creating scalable learning strategies for organizations, it is thinking through that whole process, How can we make sure that we’re being strategic that the organization is getting what they need, but then also thinking about the individual within the audience. So things like 360 assessments combined with formal training combined with coaching um can actually be a really effective way to see people grow and develop. I think, you know, for me I think people are worthy of investment and then I think investing in your people make them feel valued and gives them a new new skills and a new passion for their work. Um and as leaders in our organizations, we get to create that environment, we get to create those opportunities so that our people can thrive. And so an assessment is one great tool that you can use in conjunction with many other tools to help your leaders grow and develop.

[00:37:57.53] spk_1:
So then by coalescing all the assessment data for all the individual people, you’re saying you can target training enterprise wide that that helps lift lift skill deficits that that are like common across lots of people in the organization.

[00:38:06.32] spk_0:
You can you can even if you have a general leadership program, if you’re individuals have gone through the 3 60 assessment process, they’re looking to develop particular skills. And so they’re going to be looking to find that you often find what you’re looking for. Right? So they’re going to be looking to find whatever that is in a leadership program. So even if it’s a more general program that you’re offering or you’re sending people to the 3 60 assessment gives that individual information so that they look for that when they’re in that program.

[00:38:39.11] spk_1:
Yeah. Right, Right. As you said, they’re looking they find what they’re looking for.

[00:38:44.29] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:46.82] spk_1:
Okay. All right. We’ll leave it there heather. What do you think?

[00:38:49.42] spk_0:
That sounds good? tony Thanks for having me.

[00:38:57.52] spk_1:
It’s my pleasure. Absolutely heather. Bright Founder and Ceo of skill. Masters Market. The company is at skill masters market dot com and she is at heather burr. Right, thank you again heather,

[00:39:05.52] spk_0:
thanks tony

[00:40:36.32] spk_1:
next week. The final 21 ntc show. If you missed any part of this week’s show, this my voice just crack like I’m 14 this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. You think I would go back and audacity and take out the, uh, the voice cracking. But no, I’m a human. My voice cracks. You know, that’s, that’s the way it is. We’re, you were not striving for perfection. I mean, I’m striving to be good, but perfection. You got a lackluster host, you know, that were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c O. Yeah, I do strive to make the show is better each week, naturally. I mean I am, I am uh, aiming high but perfection. Mm I don’t think we’re gonna get there together. We’re also sponsored by sending blue, the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. Here we go. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Yeah, thank you for that information scotty. He wrote me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great. Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for August 2, 2021: The Surprising Gift Of Doubt

My Guest:

Marc Pitman: The Surprising Gift Of Doubt

That’s Marc Pitman’s new book. It’s stuffed with strategies to help leaders—and future leaders—lead better. Marc is founder of Concord Leadership Group.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.

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[00:00:10.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:01.74] spk_0:
Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and oh I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer with elia tibial band syndrome if you irritated me with the idea that you missed this week’s show the surprising gift of doubt. That’s Mark Pittman’s new book, it’s stuffed with strategies to help leaders and future leaders lead better. Mark is founder of Concord Leadership Group on tony state too, sharing is caring, we’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C O and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant end in blue. Mhm It’s my pleasure to welcome marc Pittman to the show. He is founder of Concord Leadership Group, he helps leaders lead their teams with more effectiveness and less stress. His latest book is the surprising gift of doubt. Use uncertainty to become the exceptional leader you are meant to be. You may know him also as the bow tie guy, Mark has caught the attention of media organizations as diverse as the chronicle of philanthropy, Al Jazeera Fox News, Success magazine and Real simple the book and the company are at concord leadership group dot com and he’s at Mark eh pittman, Mark Pittman an overdue Welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:05.44] spk_1:
It is an honor to be here. Thanks tony

[00:02:07.85] spk_0:
I’m not sure why you haven’t been on years ago and and many times before. So I, I feel bad about that because you’re a smart guy and you have lots of good, you have lots of good content, lots of good ideas and uh, that’s why I say long overdue.

[00:02:20.44] spk_1:
Well thank you. My head may not fit out of the office after this kind words don’t

[00:02:44.34] spk_0:
get carried away. Okay. But you do, you do have a lot of good ideas, including the ideas that are in your new book. And I want to start with having you explain how agonizing doubt can be a gift. Please help us understand

[00:04:06.44] spk_1:
That. Uh, it’s I’ve been executive coach for 18 years now and it’s one of the things that really surprises people the most is the fact that high performers, first of all don’t tend to know how to ask for help and then they get derailed when they start feeling doubt because they start feeling like there, they’re faking it, that they’re the, you know, the Wizard of Oz, the man behind the curtain there, look at him. Um, because they’re they’re producing results, but they’re not sure how uh and that doubt can be very destabilizing. But the gift is, it can force us to look internally for our own cues. Look to look to look in areas where we’ve been told are soft or you know, they’re they’re woo. Um look at things that make us unique and it actually clarifies our leadership because it’s very much about the the grain of our wood, the way that we put a spin on things as opposed to just doing all the best benchmarked activities that are out there. Um Yeah, so the surprising gift of that is that it can make it to me. What I’ve seen to do is instead of having that inner critic saying I must be broken, I must be just must I probably shouldn’t even be in this position. It shifts the conversation to why might I be perfect for this role? Why might my organization be exactly the voice that the sector needs to have right now?

[00:04:17.64] spk_0:
And there is a lot of introspection involved in the I guess the overall work that you’re describing and we’ll go into some detail about about. But you need to be reflective introspective,

[00:05:15.04] spk_1:
right? Which often is something that a lot of leaders don’t, there’s not a lot of there’s so much need in and organizations that there’s not often a lot of time given for professional development or leadership growth and so people don’t think of at the time as doing reflection as legit leadership work. They feel like when we’re in early in careers, were or even in school we get graded on what we accomplish. We take tests, we do tasks, we complete tasks and that becomes how we are promoted as we move into management and leadership. It’s taking that time to reflect is so incredibly important. But we haven’t seen it modeled that much. Um so there is, you’re right, Absolutely right. There’s a lot of introspection but there’s also that’s what leaders do. They no longer they provide, they no longer just making sure things get done. But they’re also looking forward to see where should we be going, where should we skating to where the puck is I guess even though I’m not a sports guy, I grew up in Maine. So there’s a lot of hockey there. Uh

[00:05:50.04] spk_0:
Thank you. Yeah. Any any sports analogy will be largely lost on me. Oh sports ball. I’m not familiar with basketball. So I wouldn’t know that skating uh metaphor now. And I want to reassure folks that this is not only material for current leaders but future emerging leaders.

[00:06:56.84] spk_1:
Absolutely. When part of what what we when we’re going through our leaders journey. If we can identify the earlier, we can identify what makes us different, what makes us unique? Where our limits, where where are we really good uh Where can we excel? It can help us position our leadership roles so that we’re not being squeezed into somebody else’s box as much as possible. The organizations are clear our artificial, they’re they’re not uh they’re not perfect. So we’re always going to have to do things that we don’t enjoy or we don’t like. But we can definitely there are things we can do in our environment and our our schedules and the people that are around us that can help us or can really hinder us. So the earlier we know, even as people are going through their own personal growth journey, uh the more that they can identify these, the uniqueness is uh that they that they bring to the table the better somebody was asking a previous podcast, can you throw these conversations? Can you throw some of the, if you’re being interviewed for something, can you just answer the questions the way that you think they want them to be answered? And you could, but you may get the job that you don’t want,

[00:07:22.64] spk_0:
right? That may not be in your best self interest or your own self interest, right. Um, you know, I can see how you, would you be soothing as a coach? Just your voice. Great. See I have that. I have that new york. I grew up in New Jersey, but close enough to new york city. Don’t throw. I got that east coast, But you have a, I mean, you’re northern. You said you grew up in Maine. Now you’re in south Carolina. You have a, have a soothing way about your voice.

[00:07:29.21] spk_1:
Well, thank you. Mark, After Dark was going to be my, uh, my DJ handle Mark

[00:07:34.67] spk_0:
after dark. Uh doing Alison steal the night bird.

[00:07:38.66] spk_1:
Then it turns out there was already a Mark after dark. So I’d have to spell dark with the C.

[00:07:42.23] spk_0:
Uh Okay, we’ll do it. Here we go. All right, claim it. Uh Just your your voice has a softening calming quality to it.

[00:08:21.24] spk_1:
I’ve been told that I’ve had some people come to me and one um they kind of want me to be there, boss. Some business owners and some non profit executives are well, I want to coach is going to tell me exactly what to do and make it, you know, make it hurt to not do it. That’s not who I am. I’m sure there are those coaches out there that are drill sergeants. But um, I believe most leaders are really hard pressed and doing the best they can. And so I like to be able to encourage them and kind of blow on the coals the fire that’s almost going out and rekindle their passion to do it themselves,

[00:08:25.30] spk_0:
coaching with compassion.

[00:08:26.94] spk_1:
Nice, wow dot com. I’ll get that coaching

[00:09:02.74] spk_0:
with compassion, the compassionate coach, the bow tie guy in the compassionate coach. I want to dive into something that very interesting to me, but you have it buried, It’s buried on page 98, Okay, it’s the Pittman family homework that you used to do. Tell me about that you you covered in just a couple of sentences. To me, it was a little bit of a gloss over because I’m very interested in what got you to where you are and what informs your coaching. And and I got to believe that the Pittman family homework is integral in

[00:10:17.04] spk_1:
here. Absolutely. As I look at my bookshelf, they many of the books are things that I grew up reading. So my family, we had schoolwork because we were students at school, but my sister and I also had homework for being pigments, so we had to read positive mental attitude books, had to listen to motivational speakers, um and we had to go to events seminars, rallies, those sort of things where people were talking about goal setting and uh living your dream and at all. Um my parents were just amazed that they hadn’t been taught this, they were learning it with us and they were shocked that they had never been taught goal setting or dreaming or leadership or people skills and they didn’t want us to be inflicted with missing that before we left the house. So um I didn’t know other people might, I thought everybody had homework because they’re in their family, but I was starting to read is I I have been reading dale Carnegie, how to, when friends and influence people, uh frank Becker’s high raised myself from failure to success in selling charlie, tremendous jones life is tremendous listening to his executor of Florence, the Tower Les Brown growing up, that part of the, part of the way you, one of our kind of traditions too was having a motivational speaker on what were in the shower, So we would always have a stack of tapes next to the next to a kind of boom box and uh, we would just put them on what we’re doing our thing and then, you know, the person is done when the tape goes off,

[00:10:35.44] spk_0:
that’s when you know your showers done. So yeah, I mean this is the days before, waterproof, uh, phones and ipods. So

[00:11:02.64] spk_1:
my wife knew that she, she said she knew she was when we were dating, she knew she was dating an entrepreneur because I had a whole bunch of tapes, she had to clear off to the passenger seat of the car. It was just so used to listening to you different tape series and uh, you know, Kiyosaki reached that port ad and all sorts of different. Yeah, always learning, trying to always the

[00:11:04.18] spk_0:
one after after Kurosawa, what did you say

[00:11:49.84] spk_1:
your sake robert? Kiyosaki wrote a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad in a series after that Dad, Poor Dad. Yeah, just different ways. People, different mindsets. People have about money and security and, and it’s really helpful and going into fundraising was really helpful to have this kind of being able to speak the language of your donors is one of the most important things um, in fundraising and having been exposed to this literature, that the other leaders were being exposed to make it a lot easier to talk to them. In fact, my first talks in, uh, first professional talks were translating marketing things in sales for fundraisers Because sales was the s word 25 years ago. And uh, so I would take like Seth Godin’s idea, virus information, marketing and make it so I fully attribute it, but I’d make it so that it was understandable to how this could work in a non profit.

[00:13:00.54] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, The Chronicle of philanthropy, The new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington Post, The Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where turned to clients have gotten recent exposure. You want that kind of exposure for yourself, for your expertise turn to has the relationships that can make it happen. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, let’s go back to the surprising gift of doubt. So this Pittman family homework, which obviously as you’re describing, you know, evolved through the, through the decades, you’re continually continually learning even today, you say that the book a couple of places. Um, but this was an elementary school. You mean, there are, there are really considered this doctrine nation?

[00:13:43.14] spk_1:
Oh, absolutely, yeah. Looking back on it. It totally was. And when charlie, totally, well, my uh, charlie, tremendous jones became a mentor of mine, which he had been a hero of my universe because I love this book. Um, and he said, when I was looking with our kids, he said, oh, I would never do it that way with, as your parents said, I would teach, have them do stories, I’d have them, uh, have your kids read biographies and be inspired by stories as opposed to reading how to literature. But okay. I probably because of my upbringing, I love I love nonfiction. I love reading a good how to book on leadership are in goal setting or vision casting storytelling. Yeah.

[00:13:46.65] spk_0:
Credit credit department parents. Well

[00:14:08.74] spk_1:
one time Sandy Reese was interviewing me And she uh years ago and she came up with a, she catalogued all the books that I referenced in the talk uh just in a conversation because I still read 50-75 books a year. Um to and and I had to set a goal years ago to read nonfiction because that’ll make me a better storyteller. But I had to set it as a goal. Now I can fully enjoy reading nonfiction. I mean, reading fiction. Sorry. Really? Sorry. Yeah. Reading the fiction books that are enjoyable. I always thought was cheating, but now it’s a goal. So I’m okay said a certain number of goals for fiction books I want to read in the year

[00:14:27.00] spk_0:
And 50-75 a year. You still read?

[00:15:04.14] spk_1:
Yeah, I’m cranking through books this year to I don’t know why, but I love what part of it is. There’s just I want to keep fresh when I’m writing a book. I tried not to not read in the genre that I’m writing it. So I didn’t read a lot of leadership books. I was doing surprising gift of doubt because I didn’t want to um mistakenly like take over somebody else’s thoughts that should be attributed to them because I really do think crediting the source is really important um which this book even get more more to the point. The editors were even more insistent that I double and triple checked my references, which I thought was wonderful.

[00:15:04.86] spk_0:
Yes, there’s a bunch of endnotes haven’t

[00:15:07.42] spk_1:
been pushed this hard in a while, so I’m really, really pleased with the team that helped me with this one.

[00:15:18.74] spk_0:
Something you say early on is that the motivation is within you expand on that for us.

[00:15:24.84] spk_1:
Well the part of the I don’t remember exactly, I know that was part of the chapter. Sorry, you don’t have to flip through the pages, you know you write a book and then you know quiz on

[00:15:38.64] spk_0:
Page 16 or something but you talk about the motivation, motivation for leadership and and good and just good intentions is within you.

[00:17:06.04] spk_1:
Yeah, I think part of what we uh we spent so much of our life and another part of the book. I I do this map of the leaders journey where it’s a four quadrant section where we start off on the confidence scale, which is the vertical scale and we go down to ensure we’re gonna talk about the leaders journey. Okay, well that’s part of it is that we are so used to looking externally for are accused that the we forget to look internally and find out what what what what do we value? What are we passionate about? What are two things we forget. We forget to to actually give them air. And often we don’t really permit ourselves to define what we value or we hold onto because we’re looking for others uh for cues either the culture or systems. But the other thing that we somehow don’t do is we don’t credit them as being unique traits. We think everybody must be like us, you and I both wear glasses and it’s almost like we forget that we’re wearing glasses at times. I don’t know if you’ve ever had the experience of trying to find your glasses and they’re right there on your face. They’re not even on your head, right on your face. You uh get fingerprints all over my glasses when I do that. But we often this stuff that’s within us is often the stuff that makes us unique, makes us a valued part of the team. And we just kind of write it off as a weird quirk of our own, not something that’s worth giving attention to.

[00:17:22.44] spk_0:
It’s it’s some it’s among those natural strengths. You talk about natural strengths for versus learned skills. Yeah, our natural strengths, you’re right. We I guess we we be minimized. I’m thinking of everybody, Everybody is that smart or everybody thinks about

[00:18:49.24] spk_1:
that or if I can do it quickly, then I must not be work. I remember being in a early job. I loved was fundraising for prep school and I loved it. I just loved the traveling. I loved the, you know, when I was home at the boarding school, being at the table with the 10 other students, 10 students and my, my wife and I were the faculty parents. And um, I love the kind of matching school’s mission with donors values and trying to see if there was a fit and being okay if there wasn’t, but being excited if there were that all excited me. But I didn’t think I could enjoy work that much. So I was talking with the faculty colleague and I tried to make it sound really hard, you know, because there’s a lot of stuff that is hard. The travel isn’t that inspiring, There’s delays. And also I tried to really accentuate the bad stuff and he looked over at me, he said, you love your work, don’t you? And I felt so guilty because I totally did. And then I found out he didn’t, he would never want to do what I was doing because every day was different every day I had to come up on the spot with different answers and um, and I didn’t know what, I had no idea who was going to call, what I was going to, who I was gonna see what opportunities are going to rise. He liked being in his classroom and knowing this is the curriculum and this is where I can adjust if we go too long in one area, if we go too fast on another. He, he loved that stability. Uh, and that’s where I started realizing that the stuff that I thought was just kind of, everybody would want to do this. And I, yeah, I kind of got lucky is, no, not everybody wants to do this. And any fundraisers listening to those knows that because we’re usually the oddballs out of the nonprofit, we’re the ones that are outward focused in ways that others aren’t.

[00:19:06.34] spk_0:
What do we talk about the four quadrants of your journey? Um, you have some self assessments that folks are just gonna have to buy the book to do. We’re not gonna be able to talk through the details of Okay, health assessments, but, but the leaders journey through the four, the four quadrants, I think that’s valuable. And especially moving from quadrant 2-3.

[00:21:36.94] spk_1:
Sure. So the, uh, what I loved about creating part of, I’ve been trying for 18 years to explain what I do with with as a coach. And this was the first time when I created this four quadrant methodology was the first time people repeated it back to me, they understood it, and my wife looked at and said, well this is me is learning, this isn’t just leadership, but the the axes again our confidence vertically and then inputs horizontally. Quadrant one is where your high confidence and you’re looking externally. So most leaders only get half the map, we don’t get the whole map, we only get the external half. So we we started a quadrant where we’ve seen other people lead and so we start copying them. Somebody gives us the ability to run a project or to lead a team. Um some sort of leadership and either we’re super excited because we’ve known where a leader finally somebody else sees it or were scared, but we have the confidence from the other people that they’re going to do it, that’s and that’s where we just try to do what they’ve done. Um, some of the people that I listened to growing up, some of the motivational speakers would say if, if you’re leading a team and you turn around and there’s no one behind you, you’re just out for a walk. That’s when your confidence starts going down, which I dipping into the quadrant two, which is the experiment quadrant where you start trying to figure out, okay, what worked for tony didn’t work for me. Like tony has his own way of doing things and it’s not clearly not working for me. When I say jump, people don’t say how high, what do I need, where the deficiencies and how do I fix them? And that’s where you start taking courses, you start getting certifications, reading books, going to seminars, going to conferences, listening to podcasts, so it’s people skills or um, closing on sales or fundraising, uh, anything and met most leaders kind of stay in quadrant two lurching from success to success. They have so much success that the people around them, I feel like, oh yeah, this is, they’re going to pull the rabbit out of the hat again. We know that whatever she does, she’s an amazing leader. Um, but she, the leader herself is wondering, is seeing all the deficits, all the deficiencies, all the stuff that they don’t have measured up. And that’s where the doubt builds up inside them to think, well maybe I’m not the right person if they have the opportunity, sometimes it’s just through strain and stress, Sometimes it’s through coaching to see that there’s a whole map and the other half of the map is all the internal cues. So the external cues are great because it tells us how we learn and there are good systems that we can learn from. But when we moved

[00:22:15.74] spk_0:
before, I want to just make sure folks are clear about what the, what the horizontal and please, these are labeled. So the so the vertical is confident and unsure, so confident on top, unsure at the bottom. And then the horizontal is external and internal. So when you’re in quadrant, when you’re in quadrant one, you’re observing and you’re you’re confident and that’s the confident external quadrant

[00:22:21.64] spk_1:
quadrant

[00:22:22.76] spk_0:
two. That’s the unsure external

[00:22:27.40] spk_1:
and you’re trying to fix what’s wrong? Yes, we’re talking about

[00:22:29.65] spk_0:
right now. I just wanna make sure everybody’s clear

[00:22:43.34] spk_1:
and that’s the cost. So I find the magic happens at the when people are moved from quadrant, the quadrant three, which is the they’re still on the unsure half of the map, but you’re moving internally to figure out. So let me illustrate like this. Have you read getting things done by David Allen?

[00:22:48.64] spk_0:
Uh No, I haven’t.

[00:22:49.96] spk_1:
Okay, well it’s 13,000 listeners. They’ve heard of it. Okay. They’ve heard of it. Great.

[00:22:53.69] spk_0:
The audiences better red than the host. I. Sure.

[00:24:17.84] spk_1:
So the if you if you read a book, like getting things done is valentine management and you only implement 10% of it in quadrant two, you’re going to think, wow, I failed it. Another thing, I can only get 10% of this. The book says it changed people’s lives. It’s not changing my lives. I just write lists. That’s all I got out of this Quadrant three is where you shift the question too. Huh? I wonder what either. I wonder why that didn’t work for me. What is it, what is it about the book or? It’s shifting the focus to, wow, I got 10% that 10% is really helpful. This writing list things with the next action item really actually is really helpful. And as one of my mentors said years ago, eat the chicken, spit out the bones. All right. The chicken for me and getting things done is writing lists. I don’t have to do the whole reviews and the files cabinets and all this other stuff that has helped other people. It’s not gonna help me. And as you start building in quadrant three, we’re looking at your hard wiring, looking at your stories, you tell yourself, looking at your goal, setting your mission, your your values, your personal style. It starts building up your confidence again because we’re in quadrant two, you’re just seeing all your what you lack in that you’re afraid somebody’s going to figure out that you’re really just faking it In quadrant three. You start seeing why some of the things work the way they do for you, um why your organization doesn’t necessarily do whatever all the other organizations are doing, but you don’t have it just a it’s not just a whim or feeling, it’s you start being able to have the language to be able to express what why you do what you do and that builds your confidence back up to Quadrant four, which is a focused leader. Quadrant

[00:24:39.24] spk_0:
Okay, Before you go to four, Yeah, A lot of people get stuck in in the second quadrant. absolutely. And the transition from 2-3, you find a lot of people in your practice and generalized beyond that stuck in that second quadrant what we’re working, we’re working with external systems that are not not being rewarded or

[00:24:48.50] spk_1:
not looking for the next guru, looking for the next framework.

[00:24:51.29] spk_0:
Why is it why is why are so many people stuck into looking for this external help? That’s it’s routinely not not fulfilling for them.

[00:26:11.14] spk_1:
I think part of it is because we were raised that way. We look for parents for cues, we look for coaches for cues, we look forward to look to externally to teachers, to grade our work bosses, to give us uh you know, performance reviews, and I think we’re taught probably at least in the cultures that I work into not really trust ourselves, do not trust the inner voice, the nudges that we’re getting, because those are soft, we should look for hard data, we should look for benchmarking, we should we should see what others are doing. Um There there are good things with looking at others, but it’s just not the complete picture, I think it really needs, it’s like an introvert that is trying to copy of extroverts boss. So the extroverts uh mentor walks around the office, talks to people, gets energized by doing that, has a high level of energy with the personal relationships. Um, an introvert boss, this introvert that’s trying to be, you know, an emerging leader, maybe we’ll get drained from that. It’s not that they can’t be social and be engaging, but it’s it’s not energizing for them. So they’ll need to take a lot of time to recharge their batteries, but they won’t necessarily give them the, if they don’t look internally to realize, oh, I’m wired differently. They’ll try to keep forcing themselves into somebody else’s mold. Um, you know, the, the, the proverbial square peg in a round hole,

[00:26:14.64] spk_0:
Okay, somebody else’s mold being based on the way we grew up, Like you’re saying

[00:26:18.87] spk_1:
the external, Yeah. Teachers,

[00:26:20.19] spk_0:
parents, bosses trying to fit into. We’re accustomed to trying to fit their molds

[00:26:58.04] spk_1:
well and think about it. Non profits to, yeah, boards, Every board member seems to come in with their own kind of mold for how a nonprofit should work or how leaders should work or how something should get done. And what is incumbent on us as bored as nonprofits to help with the boards is to onboard them to train them to. This is how our, our nonprofit works. These are our values as a non profit. This is how we do things. The communication styles will have, we will not go back behind each other’s back in gossip. That is not how we operate here. Um, but that often dad on boarding and board, uh, board orientation often doesn’t happen. So you’re stuck with a bunch of people that have these external moles that they want to try to force the leaders and the staff and the nonprofit into that aren’t necessarily helpful or in line with what the nonprofits therefore

[00:30:19.54] spk_0:
or even worse than not helpful. Yeah, thank you. Detrimental, hazardous oxygen you know, It’s time for Tony’s take two, sharing is caring who do you know that you can share? non profit radio with please. I know you’ve got lots of folks, But let’s just focus on one out of all your circles, all your spheres of influence your networks, your friends, lovers loved ones, hope lovers, our loved ones. Well not necessarily right. No, I take that back. That’s not necessary. I mean eventually, but maybe not necessarily now husbands, wives, Children, grandchildren, ex husbands, ex wives, ex partners, ex boyfriend’s ex girlfriends. Maybe maybe among all these exes, maybe you’re trying to get back together. non profit radio could be the conduit, the method that opens that door. Look, I’ve been thinking about you in very, very special ways. You need to start listening to nonprofit radio Mhm I realize now you’re the light and the love of my life. Please start listening to nonprofit radio it’ll help your career and then when we get back together it’ll bring you and us to retirement security, what better what better way to get back together than income and retirement security? non profit radio is the conduit for your long term security as you’re getting back with your ex non profit radio Look please who can you share? non profit radio with who’s going to benefit? They don’t have to work for a nonprofit, you know, board members, board members are great listeners to nonprofit radio so give it some thought among all your spheres and all your contacts and and okay influence. Who could you share? non profit radio with I’d be grateful. Let them know about the show. I’m not gonna pitch it to you. You you already know what the show is That is Tony’s take two now back to the surprising gift of doubt. So they’re moving from 2-3. I know you I know you already did this, but because you are ready to go from 3-4. But uh, you know, for it, this is great. You’re suffering a lackluster host. So I’m just processing and you’ve been thinking about this for decades. Yeah, but I’m still, I’m still processing. So The moving from 2-3, I kind of saw that as as a synthesis of

[00:30:21.85] spk_1:
all

[00:30:22.37] spk_0:
these different systems that you don’t call it. Synthesis.

[00:30:24.91] spk_1:
No, I know that

[00:30:59.24] spk_0:
you’re doing all your work. You can think about it for decades. You call it analyzed, I call it synthesis. I like it. You’re free to call it analyzed Of course. I I thought of it as a synthesis of all the things that you attempted in, in these external systems, the books, the webinars, the weeklong leadership conferences, whatever they were that were only partially or maybe not at all helping you, but you extract out what does, what does have value you and and you make sense of it and you emerge in a better place. And that’s to me that was the synthesis of I

[00:31:42.84] spk_1:
like that you’re the next quadrant and you also learn some of the some of the patterns that you fall fall into. You start reflecting enough to say, oh wait, I’m doing that again. Does that mean I’m stressed or? Um there’s one of the assessments of Hollande’s ability battery, uh which tests you on how you actually perform on things. It’s not how do you feel about, would you rather read a book or go to a movie? It’s not questions like that, but it’s do this task under time pressure and it shows what comes quickly to you. One of the things that came out for me early in my career was rhythm memory, which is a kinesthetic type of learning. Um it’s and it’s also tied to a desire to move around. So I’ve always looked for jobs that involved moving around because I knew that that would be more life giving and energizing for me. What that meant was that I never liked your

[00:31:45.89] spk_0:
work at the, at the prep school. Right. Exactly,

[00:32:35.84] spk_1:
Absolutely right. But that also changed my career trajectory because I realized many of the major gift fundraisers that I’d seen that went into management became very frustrated because they had to manage other people that were doing the work and they actually wanted to do the work. So I I took some ownership of my own career path and moved into positions that um allowed me to still have that kind of external. I’m an extrovert, you know, movement. So that kind of synthesis is also the internal synthesis of this is my way of operating in the world. And I want to try to put myself as much as possible in ways that work with that. Um not that I don’t want to grow, not that I don’t want to be stretched or challenged, but I also don’t want to put myself in a position where I’m just going to languish, although that’s sometimes what the right career path should be when the headhunters call, they want to see a paper career path of associate to manager to director to senior VP or something. Which may not be the way that is realistic for for people.

[00:32:53.24] spk_0:
Alright, so now

[00:32:54.72] spk_1:
move talking from

[00:33:35.24] spk_0:
experience. Well you at least you at least have you at least would would be uh would look good on paper and do look good on paper. I I would I would never be, I can’t be an employee. I would I would fail the, I would fail the screening interview with With the headhunter assistant assistant. I won’t even get to the associate level. I remember the managing director, I don’t know how I get the headhunter cause I’d be 20 minutes late just because II felt like why should I be on time for you? And then if I ever made it to the, if I ever made it to the interview, which I never would. But if I met, if I met a principal in the organization, I’d be sure I’d show up late, I’d be in sneakers. No, I just, I was unemployable. Everything I could because I know I’d be, I’d be a shitty employee. I just don’t fit them up. So I would I be doing them a favor by wasting their time.

[00:33:52.14] spk_1:
That’s awesome. Yeah.

[00:33:54.04] spk_0:
So move us into the fourth for those, for those who are more suited to, uh, working in organization, you’re moving to a level of you mentioned at one point, Grace, you’re leading with grace and finesse. I think you say

[00:34:34.94] spk_1:
right? And, and there’s a, it’s because you’ve got the kind of confidence in the peace of mind of knowing why you’re doing things differently. So instead of just thinking about, I must be so bad because I can’t get energized. I don’t like going all the social events night after night. Um you start realizing why what fills you up and what fills your organization, your team, your whatever your organization is. Uh and that grows your confidence to that fourth quadrant, which I called focused, but I don’t want to make it sound like it’s nirvana, it’s not all blissful because we’re still dealing with human beings and we’re one ourselves. Um Leadership

[00:34:45.12] spk_0:
is still a challenge and Absolutely yeah,

[00:35:39.54] spk_1:
but you now have a much, you have the full map, you can look at and look at, do I need to find somebody to copy? Do I need to learn skills from people? Do I need to uh go to a class or get a podcast or read a book or do I need to actually figure out what, what the synthesizing? Do I need to analyze what I’ve consumed already or are organisations consume to figure out why are we doing it differently? Um One of the things I also want to be clear on is that the data can be helpful, so I don’t want to discredit external stuff uh with fundraising in particular, uh, when fundraising letters, we know if they’re chatty er and they use you, they get better response than if there uh, boring things that essays that would get a high school, a grade A from high school teacher, um, we know that we know that and there are some non profits that might be tempted to say we don’t we want to be more business like. Um and so it’s not just throwing out all the data that’s out there, but synthesizing it. I’m really stuck on that word. Thank you for that.

[00:36:27.53] spk_0:
Third quadrant synthesis. Yeah, that’s the way I’m one reader. Just one reader. That’s that’s the way I conceived of it. All right, So All right. So we got these quadrants of sort of progression out of the four corners. Sound like something out of the Matrix, but I didn’t watch much of that series so I can’t go beyond that. Uh, so let’s leave it there, analogy. Um, you talk about, you mentioned earlier earlier storytelling and you talk a good bit about different stories. Stories that we tell ourselves stories about the organization. Talk talk some about the stories we tell ourselves.

[00:37:49.53] spk_1:
That’s one of the things that I think a lot of us don’t reflect on is the kind of self talk that’s going on in our head all the time. Um, the two that I talked about that are the comstock stories there either the ones that you tell people when you’re meeting them for the first time. So we often have kind of go to stories where it helps position, helps people position us in their mind. Um, so maybe some people like laugh lines, some people like uh you know what their education history is or their career history. There’s certain things we go to because we start paying attention to those, we can start seeing if they really reflect what we’re trying to do. Often we get stuck in these from a different time in our life and we just kind of tell the same stories because we think we’re gonna get the same response. The one that the other type of stock story that that happens is um with Jessica Sharp here in Greenville is really cattle. It has her clients whose catalogue the self talk going through and just for a day or a couple of days listing all the different things that enter your head and that takes some discipline, especially doing non judgmentally, but things like I always fail, I always mess that up, but I can’t, I’m never good at that. Um, writing them down on a piece of paper and then after your time holding that paper up and just asking a little reviewing them and then she asks her clients to say, would you talk to a friend like this? And oftentimes our thoughts are so toxic, were actually filling and polluting our heads because we’re so hard on ourselves.

[00:37:56.74] spk_0:
We’re saying to ourselves that we wouldn’t even say to others right? Or placing ourselves with them,

[00:38:07.92] spk_1:
right? Exactly. So her invitations, why don’t you become a better friend of yourself? Which I think it’s really, I don’t know if you’ve experienced to tell you, but it’s very hard sometimes when, when you’re used to being hard on yourself to loosen up, lighten up because it feels like you might just, I, I feel like I might just go off the rails if I’m too kind to myself. I need to be really hard, you know, and just like

[00:38:30.72] spk_0:
you need to be a little stricter, otherwise I’m gonna get reckless, right? You know, if, if I, if I loosen up and you know, something, something, something careless, I’ll do something careless or something along those lines.

[00:38:38.96] spk_1:
I’m self employed. But I often joke that my boss is kind of a jerk.

[00:38:43.82] spk_0:
Uh, I am too, but I, I don’t have a good joke like that. My wife had the lackluster host.

[00:38:48.97] spk_1:
You stand there you go. My wife, my wife reminds me that I am the boss is so I can,

[00:39:30.92] spk_0:
you know, you listened as a coach, you listen to a lot of, a lot of people who are stuck in quadrant two, uh beating themselves up and whatever they are and they might even be in there might even be in the grace and finesse quadrant quadrant four, but they’re still, they’re still hard on themselves or the, or the work is hard on them. How does it, how do you not generalize all coaches? How do you as a coach keep uh stay positive? Like go from one coaching session to the next to the next to the next in a day or even if there’s a couple of days, I mean how do you continue to relate as a positive human being when you’re hearing tough story after tough story after, you know, maybe insurmountable challenge? Uh

[00:40:54.41] spk_1:
people incredibly, that’s a great question. I find people incredibly fascinating and um I am a glass is always full kind of guy, not half full or half empty, it’s always full of water or air. So uh there’s a strong, strong sense of optimism that I, I bring to the table and resiliency I guess because even people that are going through hard things, it’s one of one of the postcards I carry in my bag when I trapped when I used to travel and hopefully start again uh says just when the caterpillar thought his life was over, he became a beautiful butterfly. Um and so there’s that sense of, even the ends are often beginnings for people. Uh there’s definitely times where I have to do some, some of my own stuff like um center, you know, some meditation practices and other things just exercise to keep the headset. But um I’ve seen so many people transform themselves into people that they wanted to be, but they weren’t really sure they could be. That gives me the hope as I keep going from call to call. And sometimes it doesn’t seem like the calls gang up time when toxicity to another toxicity. Um,

[00:40:55.18] spk_0:
I mean you need your own, you need self care. Well,

[00:41:53.21] spk_1:
yeah. And I also, one of the things the privilege of being a coach is that you get to not be in the hiring and firing space with these people. So you get to be with them. And it’s, it’s almost, I’ve heard this, I haven’t experienced this, but I’ve heard in the midwest they used to have blizzards where you couldn’t back in the day when you needed to walk to the barn and milk the cows that you could get lost on the way back to the house because the blizzard was so, so, um, so cover, you know, covering or uh severe maybe. Okay, great. So you needed a rope between the two buildings And sometimes I feel like as a coach, I’m the one that’s either the rope or I’m able to connect between calls say, hey, but remember just three calls ago, you you already talked about that and this is what you’re gonna do. Oh, that’s right. I forget, I forgot I did that. That’s super okay. And just kind of get pointing the way pointing some of the rocks on the path for people to take. And that’s that’s incredibly uh life giving. For sure,

[00:42:11.70] spk_0:
blinding, blinding. The blizzard was blinding. Thank you. That’s what we wanted. Uh We’re both 50 plus are blinding. Yes, that’s what you want. Um Yeah, right. I said you’re you’re the you’re the red back. That’s I like that quite a metaphor. Good one.

[00:43:12.90] spk_1:
And it’s because yeah, the demands of life can really be blinding to this. That uh people were there. So the Center for Creative Leadership tried to figure out like the one thing was for business leaders that would be the most stressful. And it turns out there are four. And they’re all as when somebody else pointed out to me, there are people, peers, colleagues, customers and supervisors or bosses. Uh, and the nonprofits, it’s often boards, donors, staff and, and uh, and the clients, those are all pulling people apart. So it’s really easy to lose our way and to have somebody that’s, that’s sole job. Is there to be there to help you be better? Um, that I became a coach because in my experience, I grew more through talking to coaches, uh, than I did, consultants are great. They have a, they have a blueprint that they were hired them to to put onto the organization. But talking to a coach that didn’t even know my work, helped me to grow as an individual and I could figure out how to do be a better individual in my job when I understood a little bit more about myself

[00:43:15.80] spk_0:
and I love you also have the voice so well

[00:43:18.71] spk_1:
there we go because it is mostly by phones.

[00:44:29.99] spk_0:
Yeah, you were destined. It’s time for a break. Send in blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to help build end, end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing. Most marketing software designed for big companies has the enterprise level price tag, not so sending blue priced for nonprofits, it’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign. You want to try out to send him blue and get the free month, go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the surprising gift of doubt some more. A little more about stories made a little bit. But you talk about the future eulogy, this is this is other stories that other people would say would tell about you. How do you, you know, influence your future history and talk about the future eulogy and that kind of storytelling.

[00:46:50.88] spk_1:
Sure, Well and stories because our phones may have an android or IOS operating system, some people may sell blackberry, I don’t know, but are as human beings. It’s uh, story is our operating system and one of the ways we can program that is by figuring out what’s the story we want to be living uh, for me and for many people because if you google your eulogy, you’ll find this as a coaching practice that’s been well used is too think about at your funeral, what will people say about you is what will your closest people, maybe your family, uh community members, colleagues, what are they gonna say? Um and some of us that’s a little bit too hypothetical. So it’s uh the other way to look at it is if you were to die today, what would they say about you today? And writing it down, even in bullet points doesn’t have to be complete sentences. Can bring some clarity to how they perceive you or how you think you’re being perceived versus how you want to be. Had one leader that was we before the pandemic had quadrant three leadership days where we do, people would fly into Greenville and we’d hold the whole day and we’d kind of work together as a group through some of these exercises and when the uh um, the kind of the story that she wanted for her department and she realized, terrified that her stuff never know that she wanted it to be a joyful place because she was so focused on policies and procedures and tightening, you know, routines that had been really lax and not non existent. Um, but she said now I have an opportunity to live into this story that I’ve written. And it was sort of like for her, it was a history of the future, It wasn’t a eulogy, but thinking about that kind of final beginning with the end in mind, franklin Covey’s habit too can be very helpful for us. Uh my example was when I did this in my twenties, I realized I want my kids to know I love them, but going away to work didn’t necessarily communicate that love. So it allowed me to be, I wasn’t gonna stop going away to work because that providing for my family was something that was pretty important to me. But I was able to then figure out what are other ways that we can, I can communicate that love so that they know that I love them despite my going away.

[00:46:53.48] spk_0:
Just buy them things when you go away. Sense

[00:46:55.54] spk_1:
that could definitely be part of it. Yeah. Until my wife said palpable items, No more stuffed animals. I used to get one and every place I was going and she’s like that’s enough. They have enough stuffed animals.

[00:47:13.48] spk_0:
I would just, I just reduce it to the tangible goods. Just send, just send presents. We know love is equivalent to tangible tangible items. The more

[00:47:16.53] spk_1:
and the shot glasses in the airport stores were a little bit confusing to kids like why are this is a doll cup? What is this? Shot

[00:47:23.00] spk_0:
glasses? Yeah, I heart new york shot glasses. Right. Just send things, sending things that’s equivalent to love if you’re going to be away, replace yourself with items with items gift.

[00:47:35.71] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:47:41.78] spk_0:
I thought that was very interesting. The future eulogy. Uh

[00:47:42.55] spk_1:
have you ever done an exercise like that?

[00:47:47.28] spk_0:
No, no, I haven’t. Or or what even even making it simpler what folks would say about you now?

[00:47:54.68] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s very clarifying and a little chilling for some

[00:48:41.67] spk_0:
people. Uh huh. Let’s talk a little bit. Uh so just the listeners know, see we’re bouncing around on different things that that I think are interesting because you know, you we can’t really do the self assessments that are that are part of Mark’s book. You just gotta you gotta get the damn book surprising gift of doubt. Mark eh Pittman, you gotta get the book to do the self assessments to move yourself from the quadrant to you may be stuck in or to move yourself from whatever quadrant urine to advance your current leadership effectiveness or your future leadership. We’re all potentially future leaders, even those of us who don’t work in an organization. We’re still leading. I lied. I lied folks. Absolutely. I just they’re not on my payroll, but they were not an organization payroll that I that I am leading, but I’m leading them. So leadership still applies even if you’re an entrepreneur solo preneurs, however you want to call yourself.

[00:49:02.57] spk_1:
Well, I’m really glad you said that because I think a lot of people think leaders, uh, is a title which that is a form of leadership. Like you’re saying it’s influencing others and as human beings, we’re always influencing other people and that is a form of leadership. And so I try to take the broadest view. Absolutely,

[00:50:05.86] spk_0:
and I find it, you know, all right, my synesthesia is kicked in. I just got a chill, because I’m thinking about times when I’ve been able to influence someone, I’m not gonna can’t divulge any details, but influence someone through a way of thinking that I’m that I’m that I saw that they didn’t and I’ve moved there, you can move people thinking, and it’s not it’s not conniving or anything, it’s just it’s moving, it’s just consensus building. But so and I’m not saying I’m successful at every time, you know? But when you when you when you’re successful at helping people see things in a different way, you know, whether it’s, I don’t know, uh it’s a concept or it’s money, or it’s a it’s a path forward to in a relationship to bring it to fundraising. Um, it’s very, very gratifying, I mean, it’s giving the Children a couple of instances where, where it’s happened. So that’s all to me. That’s all leadership.

[00:50:09.06] spk_1:
Yes, absolutely. I firmly agree. Yes.

[00:50:37.76] spk_0:
Okay. Otherwise we’re shutting you off 46 minutes, that’s the end. That’s the end of the show. I figured you would, of course. Um, so, you know, we’re moving around to different things that we can help you help you understand the self assessments, help you move your leadership forward. And another one that Mark talks about in the book is is goal setting, different types of goals. Very important goal setting. Yes. Well,

[00:51:15.56] spk_1:
So one of the things that we do with, there’s a lot of books written on goal setting. So this was the third of the three major areas that I focused on. But what I did was I took about 18 years ago, 17 years ago, I took all the different goal setting things. Not only did I study as a kid growing up in my family, but I also have a program in college that actually required me to get a lower grade because I was supposed to take leadership and learned goal setting as an extracurricular, not just as part of my course of study, but I also my masters in organizational leadership. So I’ve had these all sorts of formal education on goal setting as well. As you just

[00:51:18.36] spk_0:
said something of course required you to get a lower grade. What?

[00:51:49.76] spk_1:
Yeah, there was a there was a scholarship at the Underground college I went to that required me to get, I had a lower not required. I shouldn’t say that that there was a lower great expectation because there was an expectation that you’re gonna be all in on the leadership in student activities. And part of that was having a mentor with the staff member and having regular meetings with them, teaching you goal setting and teaching you how to do mission statements and how to create strategic plans and that sort of thing. And that was all sort of extra curricular.

[00:51:53.54] spk_0:
You got to higher grade. Is that what happened?

[00:51:55.78] spk_1:
No no no. Unfortunately they let my high grade still stands okay. But there are other some of my other friends who had a different scholarship had to keep a higher G. P. A. I didn’t have the pressure of having to keep it G. P. A. To keep the scholarship I had.

[00:52:09.75] spk_0:
So. Okay. Yeah. Alright so goal setting

[00:52:45.85] spk_1:
anyway so so what I did was I tried to take a bunch of the parts that I didn’t realize I was doing quadrant three work at the time, but I tried to take a bunch of different parts that I liked and this, this system that I use, um, I submit to, it’s in the book. I used my clients. Uh, it isn’t the end all be all, but it’s a good one To try. The first step you do is write a list of 100 things to accomplish in the next year or in your life. Um, it’s, uh, and why 100 for me is because it forces you to get silly and it forces you to think creatively because at some point you’re just trying to fill lions. Um, What most people that I’ve done this with, they get 10 pretty quickly because it’s job-related. Probably things that are going to be on the performance review, 10

[00:52:53.25] spk_0:
goals in a lifetime or even in a year. Yeah, I

[00:55:13.74] spk_1:
Know. But then the next 10 become really hard. And when we were doing these uh intensive zero in Greenville, people would call me over to the table said, Mark, can I, huh? This, can I put this this goal on my list? It’s like plenty of garden. I want to plant a garden. Can I put that on my list? Check? Of course. Again, it’s your list and that’s the point. Um, it gets the personal and the professional together. And what I have found with so many leaders is that they get so fragmented in their life. They have the professional side, they have their family side. They have different sides that when they’re looking at their goals comprehensively and they’re listening at 100 forces you to do that in some way. Um it, the amount of um centering that, that brings to human beings, the energy in the room invariably goes up because people see themselves their full selves represented there. And it’s not like you’re gonna necessarily share your board or your boss that you’re doing a garden goal, but it’s your life. So you get to set the goals for that you want to have. Um, So the first step is that is writing the 100. The second step is then the history of the future, which is you read through all of them and it will take days usually to do the 100 read through the read through them and then just project forward. What does it look like? 12 months from now? If you’ve accomplished everything on that list, even the most far out crazy ones, what are people saying about you, what awards you have, what degrees you have? What, how are you feeling about yourself and then let that sit. Um, If you did nothing else, you’d be shocked in 12 months. How many of those things you get accomplished? I’ve tested this with groups and it’s fascinating. But then you then you can map them out, you go back over the list and um, look for two different types of goals. Either the ones that make sense, like planting a garden that if you’ve also to fill in 100 lines, you also to plant carrots, plant cabbage, playing potatoes, planting a garden well kind of scoop up a bunch of those others, other goals, the smaller goals in it. So you could use that one type of magnet goal, the other ones or something that just kind of pop off the page or you kind of get a little kind of jolts of joy. There’s, there’s, it’s not really rational why some of those are there. But paying attention to those and and trying to call the list down to about 3-5 of the rational goals in the irrational goals. Um, and then plotting those out and focusing on those. Um, some people get it done in a quarter. I usually have to take the full year for each of those goals, but

[00:55:25.74] spk_0:
and one of your bookshelves behind you, you have a license plate that says gold guy. And

[00:55:29.82] spk_1:
that’s because of this process to

[00:55:31.58] spk_0:
basketball again.

[00:56:24.93] spk_1:
No, it’s not. It was my, my first ever training was with equine vet. And my second training was because of his referral was with physical therapy practice who was but they were owned by physicians and they wanted to prove that they needed an admin help To do the building so they could keep doing more care of patients. So we set up, we broke down their goals over the course of a year, what their revenue had to be with, how they were going to communicate it to the people that are on the practice, all the different things. 12 months of them we worked also how they can operate, operationalize their their strength. So the people, what did people like doing, what they like doing? They’ve never asked them, they just did the work that was in front of them. They found that one person who loves knees, somebody else loved ankles and they started shifting the workloads. They could do better at a higher quality. Um Within four months of that training they’d hit their annual goals With the 12-month goals they had accomplished in four months. And so I saw this uh Pippi, I saw her at a store and she said that’s the goal guy, that’s the guy I was telling you about pointing at me. So I got a license plate. This big old guy. That

[00:56:46.13] spk_0:
was pretty cool. The equine veterinary practice. You could have been the full guy. Hey, that’s cons are always the worst unless you think of them first.

[00:56:49.93] spk_1:
Alright. Getting a in there, but it wasn’t working.

[00:57:03.93] spk_0:
All right. All right. Mark, leave us with some some market. Pittman, surprising gift of doubt wisdom. And uh and and we’ll leave it there please. Yeah.

[00:58:04.02] spk_1:
Well, thanks so much for having me on the show. And one of the things that I think is really important. But there’s two things I’d like to end with. One is is that we’ve hinted that assessments if you’re doing assessments as part of your team work, part of your own personal growth. I love them. Don’t let them confine you, they’re not they’re meant to help you grow in grace and understanding of other people. Not to slap labels on people and pigeonholed them. So I’ll just, that’s one thing that’s a big, big acts. I like to grind. But I think going forward just people leaving, you know, listening this. Um, as you work through the whatever the days are ahead of you and you find yourself asking, you know, criticizing yourself being really hard on yourself. Try to pause and just say, well, what if this is exactly the gift that I have for the sector? What if what if this limitation is actually the strength and the unique bend that I give because I feel like when you’re, I feel like you’re broken, you may be, but you could be on the verge of greatness.

[00:58:24.42] spk_0:
The gold guy. The book is the surprising gift of doubt. Use uncertainty to become the exceptional leader. You are meant to be get the book, do the assessments, don’t let them pigeonholed you, Mark Bittman, you’ll find him and his company at concord leadership group dot com and he’s at Mark eh Pittman, Thank you again. Mark Real pleasure.

[00:58:36.22] spk_1:
Thank you

[00:59:06.22] spk_0:
next week, heather burr right with performance improvement. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant send in Blue.

[00:59:26.82] spk_2:
Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, thank you for that information scotty you with me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the Other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for July 26, 2021: 12 New Donor Qs & Train Like A Champ

My Guest:

Andy Robinson: 12 New Donor Qs & Train Like A Champ

It’s been so long since Andy Robinson was a guest, we need to cover two topics together. First, a dozen potential questions to ask your donor who just said yes to a gift. Then, his advice to up your game as a trainer and facilitator.

 

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:00:03.84] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:57.94] spk_1:
Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast and uh oh I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with idiopathic thrombosis. radio Penick purpura if I didn’t know why you bled me with the idea that you missed this week’s show 12 new donor questions and train like a champ. It’s been so long since Andy Robinson was a guest. We need to cover two topics together. First a dozen potential questions to ask your donor who just said yes to a gift. Then his advice to up your game as a trainer and facilitator, tony state too podcast pleasantries were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by sending Blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Andy Robinson to nonprofit radio he provides training and consulting for nonprofits, businesses and government agencies. Over the past 25 years. He’s worked with clients in 47 states and Canada. He’s the author of six books including train your board and everyone else to raise money at train your board dot com. His latest book is what every board member needs to know do and avoid Andy is at Andy Robinson online dot com. Welcome back Andy,

[00:01:59.32] spk_0:
it’s great to be with you. Thank you for having me today,

[00:02:08.54] spk_1:
absolute pleasure. I just want to make sure that listeners understand you were on the show just a couple months ago, May Talking about boards and financial uh financial analysis and data. But that was a replay from 2012,

[00:02:16.81] spk_0:
right with my colleague Nancy Wasserman and she and I did a different book together about that topic.

[00:02:27.94] spk_1:
exactly. Uh and so it’s been since 2012 that you were on the show, so it’s time to catch up and do uh do these two topics together.

[00:02:32.54] spk_0:
I missed you. tony

[00:02:33.84] spk_1:
Oh, you’re terrific. Thank you. Up in Vermont, See see what a humane people we have up to Vermont. Yeah,

[00:02:41.76] spk_0:
I hope so. Um anyway, I’m pleased to be back. It’s an honor to talk with you. It’s an honor to be with your listeners and thank you for inviting me.

[00:03:00.24] spk_1:
My pleasure. Um Does it annoy vermonters that everybody who doesn’t live in new Hampshire, Vermont or maine confuses new Hampshire and Vermont?

[00:03:16.34] spk_0:
Um A few people get annoyed by that. Um The cultures of the two states are somewhat different and the politics of the two states are somewhat different, but they have a lot in common, and certainly there are many people who commute back and forth and have friends on both sides of the Connecticut river. And so I wouldn’t sweat it.

[00:03:21.64] spk_1:
You’re not. Is that is that the Connecticut river that divides

[00:03:23.86] spk_0:
it? Yes, it is.

[00:03:25.64] spk_1:
Yes. That’s

[00:03:25.90] spk_0:
the kind of the river you

[00:03:26.99] spk_1:
pick up geography on probably. So you’re not among the vermonters. That is upset by the

[00:03:50.54] spk_0:
I am not and I’ve been here about 20 years. So it is my adopted home. Um much as you, you know, are living in an adopted home. So am I? So I can’t even claim the title vermonter. Um I would like to, but the locals are a little, you know, Vermont or is someone who’s been here for multiple generations. I’m gonna

[00:03:51.34] spk_1:
be generation. Yeah,

[00:03:52.59] spk_0:
it’s a generational thing, but it’s all it’s all good. And I I love living here and I’m grateful every day to be here.

[00:04:23.74] spk_1:
Wonderful. Alright, so thank you for for letting those of us who make that mistake off the hook. No worries. It’s the same as the Kentucky Tennessee dilemma. All right. 12 questions. So we’re starting off with 12 questions that you might potentially ask a new donor. Someone who has just said just said yes to a gift and your first one is how would you like to make your payments?

[00:06:16.94] spk_0:
Yeah. Right. Um and you know, I mean it’s it can be awkward because it’s we’re having this deep conversation about why do you care about this work and how do you want to participate and what would feel significant to you? And and then we have to at some point get to the logistical question of are you writing me a check and by sending you an invoice? Are we doing the credit card, you making uh installment payments to fulfill this gift? And so yeah, I think that has to be one of the questions is how would you like to make payment? And a classic solution to this is to bring a pledge form with you. So when the donor says yes you pull out the form and it includes things like how do I spell your name and how do you prefer to be contacted with me? Um Do you like email? Do you like a personal phone call? Should I come and meet with you once or twice a year? Like how do you want to engage with us? And then also there’s the payment question like are you writing the check and by sending you an invoice we’re doing installments, all those sorts of things and you know I will do a little shout out to my colleague Harvey Mckinnon who I suspect has been on your show at some point and and Harvey is an international consultant. He and I did an article about this together that I think first appeared in the Grassroots fundraising journal Once upon a Time. So he’s he’s the co author of this content. Um, but I bring it up because he’s like the international guru of monthly giving, and he will never let the moment pass without saying, you know, would you consider making this a monthly payment model? So for folks who don’t know, this is the sustainer program model where people make automatic monthly payments on their credit card or directly from their bank. So that could be one of the questions are you a monthly donor? If not, would you like to be, is that a way to fulfill this commitment? So, yeah, how how do you want to pay? Is one of those questions? Yeah, sure.

[00:06:38.24] spk_1:
Well, right, because we don’t want to I don’t wanna be so excited by the by the yes that we we shake hands, we hug and then we rush out the door. You know thinking if I stay longer they might change their minds. And then we don’t get to the details of you know right, what what can we expect? I mean you gotta this is this is a business here and let’s acknowledge from you just got a commitment for someone to invest in your business. Yes. Was that investment going to come through?

[00:07:05.64] spk_0:
So we have to be to use the wrong word here. We have to be shameless about that. And at least you know we have to be forthright and say okay this is awesome. You have just made my day thank you for saying yes. I am so appreciative how do we do this? How do we transfer the money? I mean maybe it’s stock option, right? You know, I mean there’s a lot of ways that people can make payments, So yes, thank you for naming that Tony that is one of the 12 questions for sure.

[00:07:10.42] spk_1:
Of course. Well we’re gonna we’re gonna take them off.

[00:07:13.18] spk_0:
You have, do you have them in front of you?

[00:07:14.94] spk_1:
I have a list, yeah,

[00:07:16.11] spk_0:
yeah, great freedom to me.

[00:07:18.14] spk_1:
Look at this, the guy who wrote the article with Harvey, by the way, Harvey Makin has not been on the show, if you’re recommending,

[00:07:22.64] spk_0:
I will hook you up with Harvey because he’s very good storyteller and his thoughtful and entertaining and very smart.

[00:07:29.04] spk_1:
So the guy who co authored the article, you don’t have it in front of you,

[00:07:31.94] spk_0:
um you know, I I should have it in front of me,

[00:07:34.50] spk_1:
but I think you know, make you tick off as many as you can see

[00:07:37.46] spk_0:
why don’t I do that? Why don’t I try and why am I try and remember them and then you can feed me the ones I’ve forgotten

[00:07:43.52] spk_1:
what I already gave you one. So if you don’t get credit for that one.

[00:07:46.92] spk_0:
Yeah. Well you know what happened and this is full disclosure and you’re probably your audience doesn’t need to know this. But I pulled up the wrong slide deck this morning as my cue. Oh I thought we were talking about succession planning. Oh questions. Oh well let’s see if I can.

[00:08:00.16] spk_1:
I thought the host of this show was lackluster.

[00:08:03.43] spk_0:
Yeah. Well

[00:08:07.44] spk_1:
I’m rare that we have a guest who’s been less prepared than

[00:08:08.71] spk_0:
I will

[00:08:10.54] spk_1:
we will bring this together, put you on the spot giving you once you

[00:08:25.64] spk_0:
have given me one so you won’t get them in any particular order. But I’ll do this remembering and that’s fine. I’ll give you one of my favorite questions is will you give us a testimonial about why you give

[00:08:32.24] spk_1:
that counts? I’m checking that one off. Thank you about that one. Well we’re not we’re going to see how many you can remember through the, through the discussion. I think

[00:09:13.34] spk_0:
that’s fair. Why, Why I like that one is two things first of all and you know, tony You know this your longtime fundraiser, the most powerful fundraising is a peer to peer, right? It’s one donor talking to another donor and this is a way that you can get one donor to literally talk to another. This is why I made a commitment and you know, can I put it on the website? Can I put it in our printed materials? Is something I could share on social media? How can I use that? Um, Okay, a related question is, tell me more about why you make it you chose. Yes. Like, tell me a little more about, you know, you just made a big decision. I’m I’m moved. I’m pleased to say more about this commitment. Why is this meaningful to you?

[00:09:57.44] spk_1:
What is it about our work? That’s right. And, you know, that some of these may be subsumed in your ongoing conversation about the gift. I mean, you know, so, as you’re talking, that’s fair, as you’re talking about books about making a gift, you know, it’s not it’s very rarely in my experience, a one shot, you know, you ask, and then they say yes or no. I’ll think about it there use conversations. So, you might very well, first of all, you might already have known what they love from their previous giving. But through your conversations about this particular gift, you might find that out if you didn’t already know. So you might not have to ask afterwards right already.

[00:10:12.54] spk_0:
I think a good discovery conversation with donors leading up to the ask is going to reveal at least some of these questions and answers. I think that’s fair and not everybody is that thorough or thoughtful in their cultivation and their discovery with donors. And so if you don’t have a clear answer to that question, you want to know that

[00:10:56.74] spk_1:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, The chronicle of philanthropy, The new york Times, The Wall Street Journal, UsA Today stanford Social Innovation Review, the Washington post, the Hill Cranes, nonprofit quarterly Forbes Market Watch. That’s where two and two clients have gotten exposure. You want exposure in outlets like those. Turn to has the relationships to make it happen for you turn hyphen two dot c o. Your story is their mission. Now let’s go back to 12 new donor questions and train like a champ.

[00:11:54.24] spk_0:
This also relates to one I already mentioned. Which is what are your communications preferences? Like how should I stay in touch with you? Should I send you email? Should I send you a newsletter? Do you like the occasional phone calls? Should I take you to lunch? Um, how often? And you know, a related one. This is a little awkward and I would save this for the end, but I’m bringing it up now is what’s your given calendar? Like how often may I ask you And the, the assumption we have with major donors And I’m putting air quotes here for folks who are listening. The assumption we have is that they are once a year donors, you know, typically at the end of the year and we do the cultivation and we try to close the gift at the end of the year. And I just want to say that everybody is different. And you know, here’s an old quote which is if you know one donor, you know one donor and there’s this strong tendency to sort of extrapolate to everybody. All donors behave like this. And it’s not true.

[00:12:02.20] spk_1:
So

[00:13:10.64] spk_0:
the way I might frame this is I might say to somebody, what’s your given calendar? Are you typically a once a year kind of person or if I have a special need or an emergency? Can I come to you additionally, how does that work for you? How do you think about your giving in that way? Um, another question, especially if you’re dealing with older donors, um, for those who can’t see us tony and I both have a lot of gray this call today. Yeah, that’s all right. No, no shame in that. Anyway. If you’re if you’re dealing with older donors, one of the questions I would ask is, um, does your family know about this? And the next time that I come back to talk with you, can we have some of your kids or heirs or family members in the room so we can all discuss together why this work is meaningful to you? Because I don’t want just one donor. I want generations of donors, Right? And if dad is in for mom is in front of the kids saying this is important to me. Here’s why. And we’re trying to add to our donor list and also continue this donation after that donor has passed on, then it’s good for the family members to know why this is a priority for the person who’s making the gift

[00:13:15.70] spk_1:
interesting. That’s an interesting one. You’re sort of leading into a plan giving discussion.

[00:13:19.98] spk_0:
We are

[00:13:27.74] spk_1:
and the interesting, yeah. Trying to get the parents to engage their next generation. Their

[00:13:50.04] spk_0:
kids share their philanthropic priorities with their Children, you know, and if you have, if somebody has a family foundation and the kids are on the board, I mean this is already happening, but most donors don’t. Right. Um, so I I yeah, that, I mean that’s one that sort of surprises people because a lot of people don’t think of that one, right? It’s like, who else? Um, another

[00:13:51.15] spk_1:
Live by the way, you’re at five out of 11 so

[00:13:53.10] spk_0:
far. I’m rocking and rolling here. Um,

[00:13:55.15] spk_1:
you’re you’re in a street f so far, but there’s still time, there’s still time.

[00:13:58.83] spk_0:
Doctor tony cut me some slack here early in the

[00:14:02.29] spk_1:
co author of this thing. I’m okay if I get harvey mckinnon on the show and you can’t name more than five or six of these,

[00:14:09.94] spk_0:
I’m just getting warmed all

[00:14:10.36] spk_1:
you out when I when I when I have them on.

[00:15:32.74] spk_0:
Okay, so here we go. Another one is will you come to our board and talk to our board about why you give and you know, we’re gonna talk about board training in a few minutes. That’s, you know, our second topic this morning. But um, I do a lot of work helping board members embrace fundraising. It is like the number one piece of my work for years and years and years and part of the barriers. People have this idea that donors are a different species or they come from a different planet and like, I don’t know any donors. I’m the one who gives money all this, all this stuff. Right. We’ve all heard at any of us who are consultants who work with boards have heard these tropes all the time. And I think it’s sort of fun to pull together a donor panel of three or four of your most loyal donors and they don’t have to be the wealthiest donors. I mean, maybe it’s, you know, the classic little old lady who’s been giving $50 a year for 20 years and you invite three or four of them to a board meeting. You say the 1st 20 minutes of board meeting, we’re just going to do Q and A. And we’re going to hear from some people who love us and give us money and have them talk about why they support our work. And this is transformational for board members because they realize they love us, right? We do good work, people care. They want to be part of this, right? So will you come and share with our board why you give and why this is meaningful to you? Um,

[00:15:57.24] spk_1:
so I can see how that enormously uh, eye opening for, for board members who, who get mired in the financials. You know, as we talked about when you wrote your book, the boards understanding the basics of financial, they get mired in the financials and the and the employment practices and the non disclosure and uh, and conflict of interest policy. And they forget that were, you know, this, this wide M. C. A. Does great work in the community. You know, we’re more than just a pool and a fitness center, you know, and, and let’s hear and we hear

[00:16:18.04] spk_0:
from more than just a spreadsheet and aboard media. Right? So I mean, here’s a shout out to someone you may have had on on In the last 550 radio sessions. This case Sprinkle Grace, um, in case another well known great consultant,

[00:16:21.11] spk_1:
k

[00:16:55.34] spk_0:
sprinkled Grace, who’s in san Francisco Grace. Um, you know, and Kay has said, and I don’t know if she was the first, but she said every board meeting needs to include what she calls a mission moment, which is when board members are connecting with their hearts and why they’re in the game and why they care about the work as opposed to the spreadsheets and the policies and the agendas. And you know, this is a classic mission moment is if you have donors sitting with you saying this is why I care about your work. And this is why it connects with me emotionally. Then the board members are connecting emotionally with the work. Um, so I would put that on my list of 12.

[00:16:59.03] spk_1:
It is already there another not expanding the list. You’re not very good. You don’t, you don’t hurt your own cause you don’t want to increase the denominator. You want, you

[00:17:09.52] spk_0:
can take the new yorker out of new york, but you can’t take new york out of the new

[00:17:16.94] spk_1:
yorker. You can’t take the new york out of tony No, I’m keeping track. It’s good. I don’t want you to think that I’m just

[00:17:19.59] spk_0:
trying to distract

[00:17:20.64] spk_1:
you from the purpose of here’s the next one by amplifying somebody here.

[00:18:12.54] spk_0:
Here’s the classic one that we don’t do enough because we don’t have the courage, which is, will you introduce us to other potential donors, Right. Is there anybody else that you know that might care about this work? And you know, again, I don’t think that’s the first question out of your mouth, but if you have someone who’s enthusiastic and they’re like, I love this group is like, who do you know? Um, how can you help us? And you know, will you make an introduction? Would you consider hosting a house party? Right. Um, if we have an event which you come and speak at the event, like finding ways to involve them. Um, another question, and this is probably towards the end of the list is you’re so committed, you’re so passionate. Would you help us raise money? Are you a potential volunteer in our fundraising pool? Um, and let’s talk about the volunteer tasks that are available. And could you be one of those people?

[00:18:18.04] spk_1:
Yeah, I like, I like that one a lot.

[00:18:19.97] spk_0:
Yeah. And again, it’s not gonna be everybody. Some folks are like, no, I mean, I’ll give you money. I don’t want to, I don’t want to participate in that way. But other people like, sure. What do you need?

[00:18:28.12] spk_1:
Could you help us?

[00:18:29.17] spk_0:
Could you help us?

[00:18:30.91] spk_1:
What you’ve just done exactly. Um, um, out of 11 by the way.

[00:18:35.64] spk_0:
Thank you. I think we’re there 11 or where they’re 12.

[00:18:38.54] spk_1:
Well, there were 12, but you’re not getting credit for the first one because I gave it to you

[00:18:50.14] spk_0:
sure enough. Um, the domino a new question that’s not on the list, but harvey has thought about is how has covid changed your thinking about giving?

[00:18:54.74] spk_1:
Okay.

[00:19:26.14] spk_0:
And I don’t know if that’s an after before question. Um, but you know where he was going with it. Is is it going to be harder to get donor meetings and how are people feeling about having face to face conversations? And you know, sometimes we’re doing these on zoom now, which I’m fine with. Sometimes we’re meeting with donors. Um Sometimes we’re doing it on the phone. That’s never that’s not new. Um But even just figuring out the meeting protocols and how people are feeling about that I think is an interesting bonus question. Um Alright, feed me one because I think that’s what I got so far.

[00:19:39.64] spk_1:
All right. So now you expanded the denominator by adding the COVID question. So that increased your denominator to 12. Yeah, that’s cool. You got 234 Got nine out of 12 which is about 75% right, 75 is about a C. I’ll give you a C. Plus because you have a good smile and you live in new Hampshire.

[00:19:51.13] spk_0:
I don’t I live in Vermont but whatever.

[00:19:54.94] spk_1:
That’s right. Whatever. Whatever. Um Okay. Straight C plus.

[00:19:59.06] spk_0:
Uh geography test. Let’s see if I’m, if I’m not going to pass the test of, would you like to honor questions? Give me another one, tony like to

[00:20:06.97] spk_1:
honor or someone who is in memory or someone

[00:22:03.94] spk_0:
thank you. So again, this is, this is sort of fundraising. 101 is that sometimes people like the opportunity to use their gift to honor someone they love, who may be alive, who may have passed away, um, or maybe even honor somebody who’s in the organization. I’ve had donors say, you know, I wanted to do this, but I want to do it in honor of the staff because I see how the hard the staff works and you know, they are the heart and soul of the organization. So yeah, I mean, I could honor my grandma, may she rest in peace, but I think I want to honor the employees because they’re kicking. But um, so I have, um, I chaired a capital campaign several years ago and we had the whole conversation about naming opportunities and how to price naming opportunities and all that. But one of the things we decided as if people wanted to do naming opportunities and have little plaques on the walls, they could name it after themselves, like named after a relative or a friend, but they could also name it after a value or a concept they really loved. So we had people who used the naming opportunities to write things like justice and dignity for everyone. And instead of their name, we had a little plaque, you know, for the bookcase that they bought that said justice and dignity for everyone or lifelong learning or you know, things like that. And so the naming opportunity was not just a name. Sometimes it was a value set or a concept. Um, and that made it more palatable for the folks who thought people with more money shouldn’t get to put their names on stuff because that’s inequitable. And you know, I have some, I have some feeling for that, right? I, I appreciate that point of view. I’m also a fairly practical fundraiser, but it was sort of nice said people were given the option of actually naming some value that was important to them. And um, so yes, would you like to honor somebody or something with your gift,

[00:22:10.04] spk_1:
some

[00:22:10.92] spk_0:
value or some idea or some concept? Um, and I thought that was a nice, nice pivot on that particular question.

[00:24:13.44] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two, the podcast pleasantries. You know, I’m grateful. I hope, you know, you should know you certainly better. No, you better finger wag. You better know that. I’m grateful that you listen to nonprofit radio Week after week notice. I don’t say week after week after week it’s not a laborious chore. It’s a pleasure. I hope you’re learning. I hope there’s some entertainment value as well. I’m grateful. Whatever it is you get out of nonprofit radio I’m glad. I’m grateful that you’re with us. I’m glad it’s helping you in your own career, helping your non profit That’s why I do the show pleasantries to you. Our podcast listeners. Thank you for being with me. That is Tony’s take two Now back to 12 new donor questions and train like a champ and then I have switched to a different device because my internet dropped out. That happens when you live at the beach. Sometimes it’s windy or who knows. Uh, so sound is not gonna be as good now because I’m on my phone instead of with my fancy Yeti make, which only connects to my laptop. So Andy’s sound will be the same. Mind is not as good, but we persevered non profit radio perseveres. We’ve had lights turned off. We’ve had, we’ve been at nonprofit technology conference and had taken down taking down around uh, 5 30 when the union was going by with forklifts and taking down displays. It doesn’t matter. We persevered. So the point we were at was just saying that whether you want to do your gift in honor her memory flows very nicely into how would you as the donor like to be recognised?

[00:25:05.34] spk_0:
Yes. So there are people who like their names public and there are some people who prefer to be anonymous. Um, and so we, this is an ongoing debate in the industry is do we publish donor names or not? And I’m in favour of publishing and I think it’s a good thing, but obviously you have to get people’s permission. So I think the key question is may we recognize you publicly or would you prefer to be anonymous? And you know, this implies you have that that tracking form or that pledge form that I was talking about. And you have that you can go through that with the donor and and check that off and then presumably you have a database and you can then honor that request by either recognizing them or making them anonymous. Now a key question we have forgotten, but now I’m remembering is, um, how do you want us to use this gift?

[00:25:07.97] spk_1:
Uh, he gets another one.

[00:26:49.34] spk_0:
Yes. And you know, the point here is that we want all the unrestricted dollars we can get. The best gift you can get from donors, unrestricted general operating use it however you see fit. And there are certainly donors at times who want to restrict their gifts to specific programs or initiatives that you’re doing. Certainly this is true if you’re doing capital fundraising campaign. Um, the tendency I fear is that the solicitor tends to pitch the restricted gift when it’s not necessary to do so. And you know, there are some folks who say, well, you know, most donors would rather know where their money is going. And and my response is I think a lot for a lot of solicitors for a lot of asters, they feel more comfort in asking for a restricted gift. And that’s about our needs as the, as the Askar. And it’s not necessarily about the donors needs. So we have to get better at framing our work and say when you give us the, whatever the amount is, 1000, 5000, 10,000, 50,000. Whatever it supports the whole range of our programs, it supports everything we do in the community. It supports a healthy workplace for our employees. It supports the community members and family members. We support. It helps us build long term sustainability so we can do this work for years. So the best gift you can give us is the unrestricted gift that supports the whole spread of what? And I feel as as Askar as solicitors, we have to get better at pitching that. I think that’s about us. I don’t think it’s about the donor. So that’s one more question. Um, are there any

[00:26:57.44] spk_1:
other, you know, there are, I’m not going to make you agonize over whether or anymore. No. You’ve named you named all the ones that, that I

[00:26:59.57] spk_0:
didn’t get them all.

[00:27:11.24] spk_1:
And then you added one the covid question. So that gives you a 10, 12 Or reduced that to 5/6. And I would say that’s a solid B A beat. You got to

[00:27:12.14] spk_0:
take a B today. I will take I’ll take a B plus.

[00:27:18.74] spk_1:
Well you’re getting a big, you’re getting a beat. So All right. So,

[00:29:07.24] spk_0:
I mean, I want to I want to wrap this part of the conference tony Let me wrap the part of this conversation with a quick little summary here. Um, and then we’ll move to the second half. Um, the stress that we have as Nascar’s I think is around closing the gift, getting the yes. And I feel like there’s a tendency to think if you get that. Yes, you’re like, my work is done. People try to check out or they relax or they stop engaging at the beginning of the relationship. That’s not the end, That’s not the end point, that’s not the victory. Um The whole point is to then ask, how do I keep this donor? How do I make this donor commit even more deeply? How do I find a way to serve them so that they’ll want to give again? And so I feel like the yes is the beginning, it’s not the end. And to me that’s sort of the summation of this whole thing when we get that. Yes. Where do we then go to strengthen and deepen the relationship? And you know, there’s a I can send this to people, we can find a way. But I mean I would turn these into a checklist and I bring them with you. I think it’s okay Um to have a clipboard in front of you when you’re talking to a donor and take notes and you can ask permission to say may I take notes while we’re talking. So I remember stuff because I don’t forget stuff. And is that okay? And I think most people are cool with that but you don’t have to remember these 12 questions. You can bring a cheat sheet with you and you can or you can treat it as a as a form that you fill out when you’re talking with the donor so that you can remember these things and get them into the database. So don’t feel like you have to remember all this stuff. It’s not your job. I think your job is to facilitate the conversation and carry the notes with you if you need them. Yes.

[00:30:24.54] spk_1:
Very sound. Oh I agree. Nobody has a problem with you taking some notes. Um Yeah no I mean you want to preserve this information and and as you said, can convey it back to your to your database for sure. And I like that. Part of the way you, uh, ask how can we be of service to you is by asking for them, asking not require requiring asking for them to be of service to the organization. Would you provide a testimonial? Would you come meet our board, Would you help us with your fundraisers with our fundraising? No, that’s that’s that serves both parties. The benefit to the to the organization of course is greater engagement. Now, now the person isn’t just a donor or investor. There are, there are fundraiser along with you potentially if they agree to that side by side, but we’ll come to a board meeting. There’ll be a V. I. P. Speaker at a board meeting, potentially if they’re willing to do that part. All engagement. That’s all. This was all in service to both the donor by getting them involved in a cause that they already love and service to the non profit as well.

[00:31:37.04] spk_0:
You know, there’s a lot of data on the psychology of giving and why people give and what motivates donors to given all of that. And one of the top reasons is people want to feel connected to something larger than themselves. They want to feel connected to causes or social change or programs that are meaningful to them. Or maybe it reflects on their own experience, um, you know, in need, they had early in their life that the organization or appear organization helped to take care of for them. And so we’re giving them opportunities to more deeply connect with the community that’s creating this change. Um, so it’s an honor. I mean we feel like, you know, we feel like asking people to give as a burden. I think that’s totally backwards. Giving is an honor. It’s a privilege to give and I frankly think it’s a privilege to ask and, and then I think it’s a privilege to be in relationship with the people who give so that you can then deepen that relationship and strengthen their work. So, um we have to be proud, we have to be proud fundraisers. We have to embrace the fact that this is necessary and beautiful and holy work and not treated as a chore but treated as a chance to really improve our communities and deepen relationships and all of that.

[00:32:40.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break, send in Blue. It’s an all in one digital marketing platform with tools to build end to end digital campaigns that look professional are affordable and keep you organized. They do digital campaign marketing, that’s what we’re talking about. Most marketing software for big companies designed for them, has an enterprise level price tag, sending blue is priced for nonprofits. You heard the Ceo Stefan say this all last last week more articulately than than your lackluster host does. It’s an easy to use marketing platform that walks you through the steps of building a campaign. You want to try out sending blue and get a free month. Go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for the second half of 12 new donor questions and train like a champ.

[00:32:43.84] spk_0:
Um, I think that’s the 12 questions. What else were we talking about today? Tony

[00:32:50.74] spk_1:
Such a such an unprepared guests I haven’t seen and I can’t, I can’t name have I think we’re

[00:32:54.72] spk_0:
talking about training, we’re talking about, we’re talking about training

[00:33:39.64] spk_1:
boards. It maybe 551 shows that since I’ve seen this, this unprepared we’re talking about we’re talking about upping your game and training and facilitating and let’s not limited to board training and facilitating you. Might be might be training your fellow, your fellow staff. Uh, maybe you’re a, uh, maybe you’re a consultant who does training and like the up the game a bit in training facilitating. So, or maybe it’s maybe it’s board work. So, the one of your, one of your articles that I want to start with is the one about, Uh, not over stuffing your agenda. You feel like people try to pack too much into an hour or 90 minutes or a half a day or a full day. So, uh, do you have any idea what that article is about that you

[00:33:42.44] spk_0:
wrote? I’m a Volunteer Today. Friends. I’m here and I’m being abused by the host just for the record. I’m doing this is but

[00:33:54.24] spk_1:
but even volunteers, we have expectations. Even volunteers don’t just walking

[00:34:05.34] spk_0:
by. I am tony I am crushing this. Let’s acknowledge this. I’m doing great today. Anyway. two per your question. Um, we have to start by thinking a little bit about how people learn,

[00:34:09.84] spk_1:
how people learn and what your goal is. Yeah.

[00:36:26.93] spk_0:
And so, you know, there’s there’s a lot of learning theories and I won’t get too geeky with folks, but there’s a learning theory that I that I think is intuitive and people understand is that we all have different learning styles and there’s an acronym V A R K bark that represents this so obvious visual, Right? Some people learn stuff visually. They look at images. They look at video. I mean, that’s their that’s their learning style. Some people are auditory a they like to talk, they like to listen, right? That’s the way. And certainly people who tune into a podcast or radio show like this are probably leaning toward auditory learning as their preferred learning method. We have, we have there are, which is the reading and writing. People who read stuff. People who, right, there are a lot of folks. When I do a workshop, the folks are taking notes and I said, do you ever look at the notes and they say, and I don’t often look at the notes, but the process of writing it down helps the landed in my brain. So I remember it. So those are those are and the k is the kinesthetic people who learned by physically doing things, by manipulating things by handling stuff. So part of my challenge as a trainer and I’ll get to the overstuffed piece in the second here is I want to create learning experience that serves all those kinds of learners. And so if you are standing at the front of the room and you’re showing slides to people and you’re talking at them, and that’s all you’re doing as a trainer, You’re missing half the room, because that’s not their learning style, that’s not how they engage stuff. And so the hard work and the interesting work as a trainer, and I would say, as a facilitator to is to is to design it in a way that it serves a variety of learning styles and learning needs. And when I see an overstuffed agenda, what that looks like to me is somebody has a whole lot of content that they feel like they have to share in the way that they’re going to teach people is by shoving all this into their face as fast as they can, and the theory that if you give them more, they’re going to absorb more, and I just don’t think that works. So going back to what you said, hey, you got to start with your goals, like what am I trying to accomplish in this particular training? What do I want people to master right

[00:36:30.13] spk_1:
now? Okay, yeah,

[00:36:32.43] spk_0:
then once you’ve got that, then the question is, how do we design something that’s accessible to a variety of

[00:37:04.63] spk_1:
learners? Before we, before we continue, I have to uh, add a couple of things, uh, listeners are going to admonish me if I don’t thank you for identifying of arc, because not probably radio we have drug in jail. So if you hadn’t methodically explained each element of bark, then it would have been a serious transgressor and you would have been uh, promptly escorted to jargon, jail free

[00:37:09.83] spk_0:
at last free at last. Yes, you are almighty, I’m free at last.

[00:37:29.23] spk_1:
You are. Um, and I recently had a guest, uh, Laurie listeners remember Laurie Krauss talking about public speaking, the research shows that people retain something like, uh, oh, something like a very small percentage. I don’t know, 2% or 10%. It’s like,

[00:37:31.00] spk_0:
Yeah, I know this data. Yeah. They will they retain 10% of what you say, but they’ll retain 90% of what they do

[00:37:38.63] spk_1:
what they’re doing there. There’s your K. There’s, you can see that, that’s

[00:41:33.41] spk_0:
the K and but it’s also the reading and the talking and the small groups. Okay, so let me make this simple for people, if I’m doing a half day training, you know, like, I’m doing a fundraising training or board development, whatever it could be an hour, and it doesn’t really matter. But let’s say I’ve got you for a morning, the way the way I designed this, and it’s another shout out to our colleague Andrea Kill Stead, who she and I did a book together called train your board and everyone else to raise money. And we spent a lot of time talking through this. Um, hey, I’m going to give you some content. Now, the chunk of content I give you is not going to exceed 15 or 20 minutes. It’s a short piece of, here’s some information you need having, given you that content. I’m then going to launch an exercise or an activity where you work with that content. So maybe there’s some small groups or maybe there’s a writing exercise or maybe it’s a role play. I mean, every fundraising trainer in the world has done role plays where people practice a pitch or practice listening or whatever, right? And then after the exercises over there is going to be some time to debrief and, and think about like what did you just learn? What will you take away from that exercise? And for me it’s always that pattern. Here’s some content now, you’re going to work with the content now, you’re going to reflect on what you learned and how you might use it. And if you had me as your trainer or facilitator for a half a day workshop, you would see this pattern repeated six or seven times in three hours. Um I’m gonna give you some stuff and I’m not going to stand there and talk to you for 60 minutes. I’m not gonna do that. Here’s a chunk of info work with the info. What did you learn? And if you retain nothing else from this part of my conversation with Tony, this is what I want you to retain. Is that pattern repeats itself. And if you can vary up the design of the exercises like okay here’s a writing exercise and the next one is a small group discussion and the next one might be a sequencing exercise where you like I’ve done, I’ve done a class where um we do, we organize a 12 week major gifts campaign um like how to do a speed major gifts campaign. And I will create like post it notes or cards that you put up on the wall. That’s a week one, week two, week three, week four. And then I create cards with a bunch of the activities like call donors, set up appointments, build a gift pyramid, all of those things and I put them all out on the table and I have people try and sequence them and they’re doing in a small group. So what are we doing? Week one, what are we doing? So it’s a classic farc via RK activity because there’s the visual piece, there’s the auditory piece of talking with each other and figuring out where we sequence stuff. There’s the reading and writing piece because you’re reading them, I’ll also give them some blank cards in case I’ve forgotten a step they want to add and I’ll give them a market so they can actually write additional steps. And then there’s the kinesthetic piece of physically manipulating these cards and putting them on a calendar. Um, So that might be, you know, 20 minutes and break out to do that exercise. And then we come back and I said like, what did you learn? Yeah. You know, and what tends to happen in that particular exercises, everybody wants to front load everything and so weeks one and two or look like this, my hand is like wide on the wall and when you get to week 12, there’s nothing, it’s like, okay, maybe you need to spread this out so you don’t kill yourself at the beginning of the campaign and think about a way to sequence it, that’s more humane. Um so I I say the word trainer and that’s intimidating to people because like I’m not a trainer, it’s not what I do, and there’s a tendency to want to hire people like me to come and do it, which is great, you know, I appreciate the work, but I feel like the basic skill set, anybody can learn, you don’t have to have a lot of formal training to be an effective teacher. Um more training helps, More practice helps. But if you sort of master the basics and you do some of the stuff we’re talking about, um, you’ll be good enough.

[00:41:41.91] spk_1:
Let’s talk about, let’s talk about chunking out your time. Yes. How much of that chunking out to share with the participants versus just keeping it to yourself?

[00:43:43.60] spk_0:
Okay. It’s a nice sophisticated question and I’ll give you a two part answer. Part one is that I tend to underestimate the amount of time it takes to do whatever I’m doing. This is true in consulting. This is true in cleaning my house. Um, this is just true in training or cutting the grass or whatever, right? It always takes longer than I think. So my skill set in that area needs improvement even at this advanced stage. Um, Having said that, I have done both times agendas and untimed agendas and what I tend to do if it’s new content and I’m figuring it out is I’ll do a trainer agenda, which is just for me where I’ll show what the times are, but that’s not the agenda I necessarily share with the group because I don’t want them looking at the clock and going, oh my God, we’re late. He’s running behind. Right? So you know, from, for many of the public events, I do, I give out an untimed agenda. I will show times for the brakes and I’ll show times for the start and end, but I won’t time out each section of the agenda. Having said that I’m chairing aboard now and when I do board meetings, I definitely have a timed agenda and I have a very ornate agenda and I’ll just do this from memory and you know, people can use this or not. This is a seven column agenda. The first columnist time like when something is going to start, um the second columnist topic, what are we gonna talk about? Um The third column is who is going to lead that and it ain’t always me. So I’m trying to find other people to share leading portions of the agenda. The fourth column, my favorite column is the decision we need to make around this particular item and I have a bias here and my biases. If you put together an entire agenda for a meeting and there’s no decisions that you’re making and it’s just reporting, you should think real hard about canceling the meeting because there’s so many other ways to share information now we don’t have to physically gather people just to do reports.

[00:43:52.00] spk_1:
Um,

[00:43:57.90] spk_0:
Column # five is follow up needed and you don’t always know that in advance. You might have to figure that out at the meeting.

[00:44:03.75] spk_1:
6es follow up needed.

[00:44:57.09] spk_0:
No, number four is decision of five. Forest decision five is I’m doing this from memory, tony should be very impressed with me. Um For his decision five is the follow up needed. Column number six is, who’s going to do that? Follow up In column # seven. And what’s the deadline by? When is that follow up going to occur? So what the way this works is you fill out some of it in advance, but some of it you don’t know until the meeting when you start figuring out like, okay, what’s our follow up, who’s going to do it? And so you actually use the agenda to build a work plan coming out of the meeting, who’s gonna do stuff and it it sort of creates the guts of the next meeting agenda, which is then about did we follow up? What was the outcome, What subsequent steps do we have to take? Who was going to do those steps? So, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily use that in the training. That’s more of a meeting agenda. We’re trying to get stuff done. And you know,

[00:45:16.89] spk_1:
let me ask you about your meeting agendas, us board chair, you’re saying you do share the timed agenda with everyone. I do. Everybody knows how much time is allocated to each subject? You maybe each row on the Yes, Okay. Everyone knows that.

[00:45:38.99] spk_0:
Yeah. And I put that out in advance. I’ll send that out a couple of days before the meeting. I mean I got a board meeting next Tuesday. I just, this is, this is too granular, but I just sent a notice to all the board members saying, here’s my, here’s like the four or five things I want to talk about. What am I forgetting? Are there boarded items that you want to add to the agenda And you know at least one person has written back and said yeah I’ve got more stuff for the agenda. So

[00:45:43.57] spk_1:
this can apply to any meeting again. Hell

[00:45:45.57] spk_0:
yeah, it could be a board meeting, could be a staff meeting, could be campaign committee.

[00:46:11.78] spk_1:
I’ve been in meetings where there was a time are appointed and the timer was not the the chair or the leader of the discussion that it’s someone else so that so that he or she leading the discussion can stay on topic and make sure that we’re moving each topic. But it’s the timers job to say We only have three minutes left on this 10 minute agenda item. And so it relieves the chair of the burden of watching a watching a clock. There’s actually a timer.

[00:46:39.98] spk_0:
Let me give you a pro tip. I love this suggestion. I totally support the suggestion and my pro tip is if you have somebody in the meeting, a board member, staff member, whomever it is that likes to talk too much and dominates ask them to be the timer because they’re going to be spending more time looking at the clock and trying to keep other people moving rather than pontificating um and taking up all the airwave. So

[00:46:42.31] spk_1:
with something else being

[00:46:50.48] spk_0:
go, it’s a deflection strategy. Um Yeah, that’s my favorite. Um So I bet you have other training questions you brought today since you’re better prepared than I am.

[00:47:17.88] spk_1:
Well, I feel like we’ve covered a lot. Um All right, let’s just let’s, let’s wrap up with managing time is your job. I think that’s that’s critical managing it subsumed in what we’ve been saying. But I want you to make it quick. You have, you have an obligation, you have a responsibility to your audience, Your meeting attendees flush that out.

[00:47:36.08] spk_0:
Thank you. Um It’s very interesting, tony that all the questions you’ve asked about training have focused on time um about not over stuffing, about to put times on agendas and it’s your job to manage time. So this is where you are and that’s interesting to me. Um So

[00:47:38.68] spk_1:
the

[00:47:43.98] spk_0:
work, the work for me as a trainer, when I get in the room, when I get in the room, I’m like doing it. I’m sorry, go ahead finish.

[00:47:51.58] spk_1:
Yeah, we’re out of time. That’s it. I’m the timer and we’re out of time by No, I’m kidding, don’t leave.

[00:49:20.47] spk_0:
Um Okay. So I guess I’m pumped defecating. There I go. Breaking my own rule. So regarding you being the boss of the time for me, the work for as a trainer is the design. It’s figuring stuff out in advance and being prepped. So when I go in the room, I don’t have to think about it too much. I can just do the work and I am doing two things. I’m paying attention to the content and I’m also paying attention to how much time things are taking and you have to have a split brain to be able to do that. Because what I’ll do in real time is all speed stuff up or I’ll slow things down based on how we’re doing against the clock. And sometimes you just have to toss stuff from your agenda because you don’t have time to do it or something more important is happening. And I’ve had, I’ve had trainings where I’ve done where we’ve gotten into really interesting deep water that’s not on the agenda and I don’t want to cut it off because it feels productive to me. So there’s an intuitive piece to this which is doing your prep, having your agenda timed out all that, but then showing up in the room and being present and seeing what’s going on and so part of managing the time is reading the room in understanding how much energy there is around the topic. Sometimes I’ll toss stuff because it just doesn’t feel like there’s any energy to embrace it and you know, I’ll go where the energy of the group is. So to me that’s one answer to your question is to prepare rigorously, but be prepared to throw out what you have prepared if the group is taking you in a different direction and the time is not lining up with what you expected

[00:50:32.36] spk_1:
and not only to throw things out, but I want to amplify something you said to spend more time on something or maybe accelerate your time, not throw something out, but accelerate your time and that’s where you know this becomes an art when on the fly, I do stand up comedy and you gotta, you gotta read the room if if certain jokes are working then you you do more of them and if another topic isn’t you you you move off it, but it’s the same as, it’s the same in a webinar or a facilitation or a face to face meeting the ability to move on the fly, intuitive, intuitively based on the clock and and the energy in the room, you know, you gotta, you gotta be watching both and that’s where it sort of one is quantitative the clock, there’s there’s no beating time. The other reason, how are people reacting to the material and where is their focus?

[00:51:31.16] spk_0:
Yeah. And the other part, I would say, and as a stand up comedian, you understand this. The other part is you don’t want to drive a particular agenda items so far that the energy goes out from it. You want to get out where there’s still some energy left. And sometimes I’ve I’ve co trained with people who wanted to milk a discussion until it completely died and then move to the next thing and you got to get out of a piece of content before all the energy is out. And you know, I mean, again, I think if you if you’re riffing on a joke, you have to learn how to get out before you’ve killed the joke. And um so I would say yes and I mean the I I that’s what I love about training is being in the room and getting that ended her back from the group. It’s been interesting doing this on zoom right and trying to figure out how to, how to transition that energy of the group into a room into something that works remotely. Um, but yes, your job is to both pay attention and be intuitive and serve the group and also managed the clock simultaneously.

[00:51:45.86] spk_1:
We’re gonna leave it there. He’s Andy Robinson, Andy Robinson online dot com. Andy. Thank you very much. tony

[00:51:58.06] spk_0:
It was fun. I’m glad we mastered the technology and I look forward to being in touch with you in the future and I hope folks will reach out if I can be of service to them by everybody.

[00:52:30.55] spk_1:
It certainly should be next week. More coverage of 21 NTCC I think if you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com was sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by sending blue the only all in one digital marketing platform empowering non profits to grow tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in blue. And we did indeed overcome the technology triumph triumph over the technology challenges today. Thanks for hanging in there with us.

[00:53:10.45] spk_2:
Are created. Museum is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan chapman. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Mhm. Thank you for that information. Scotty. He wrote me next week for nonprofit radio Big non profit ideas for the Other 95 go out and be great. Yeah. Mhm.

Nonprofit Radio for July 19, 2021: 550th Show!

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Claire Meyerhoff, Scott Stein, Gene Takagi & Amy Sample Ward: 550th Show!

It’s Nonprofit Radio’s 11th Anniversary and 550th show! To celebrate, we’ve got the whole gang together. Claire Meyerhoff, our creative producer, co-hosts. We have live music from Scott Stein, composer of our theme music, Cheap Red Wine. Our esteemed contributors are with us: Gene Takagi and Amy Sample Ward. Join us!

 

 

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[00:00:04.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit

[00:00:12.98] spk_1:
radio big non profit ideas

[00:00:15.56] spk_0:
for the other

[00:00:16.99] spk_1:
95

[00:00:17.62] spk_0:
percent. I’m your

[00:00:19.06] spk_1:
aptly named host

[00:00:20.37] spk_2:
of your

[00:00:20.88] spk_1:
favorite abdominal

[00:00:22.04] spk_0:
podcast,

[00:00:23.42] spk_2:
it’s

[00:00:49.34] spk_1:
R 550th show, you hear the live music, It’s our 11th anniversary welcome, welcome to the anniversary show, we’ve got live music and much more of that to come. We got lots of guests and the guests begin with my co host, Claire Meyerhoff, she’s our creative producer and principal of the plan to giving agency PG agency dot com. Claire, Welcome to the 11th anniversary 550th show,

[00:01:09.94] spk_2:
Tony I cannot believe that this is the 550th show because when I first spoke to you about this show, when we sat across from each other at a restaurant and cary north Carolina, I said to you, you want to do a radio show, are you crazy? Do you know how much work it is And you were like yes, I want to do this radio show And here we are, 550 shows later. It’s quite an accomplishment. Congratulations, Tony

[00:01:16.01] spk_1:
Thank you very much, Claire. Yes, we started in july of 2010. So you and I would have been having that lunch in cary north Carolina, probably

[00:01:25.58] spk_2:
25 years old,

[00:01:27.74] spk_1:
June of 2010. There was we

[00:01:35.74] spk_2:
Were like 26, years old then, you know, we were so young Now We’re pushing 40.

[00:01:39.94] spk_1:
No, we didn’t. Claire has always been a dreamer.

[00:01:41.38] spk_2:
I love them, I’m a dreamer.

[00:01:43.14] spk_1:
Uh we didn’t know what we were doing but I knew I wanted to do it. And you’ve been the creative creative juice since the beginning.

[00:02:16.54] spk_2:
I have been every once in a while. tony will hit me up, he’ll go Clara and I need some new something, something for this. You got something like yeah, I’ll read you something. There we go. That’s my job as creative creative producer. Was mostly at the beginning to be the creative producer. And what I said to Tony at the time was I said you know what I would really just like a credit on the show that way if it becomes really successful. My name is always like in this show and that’s really what I wanted. And over the years I’ve been working with clients and they go for you know I was on this thing and they said your name.

[00:02:19.54] spk_1:
I kept my word every every show, your credit to

[00:02:23.19] spk_2:
this creative producer, Clair Meyerhoff. Yeah. Doug White said that when he was a guest he was like I was on the tony-martignetti show and then at the end they said that you were you were a producer and I was like yes I

[00:02:33.15] spk_1:
am glad that

[00:02:34.33] spk_2:
beautiful with that beautiful

[00:02:35.38] spk_1:
bass voice that he has.

[00:02:36.67] spk_2:
Oh I know he should sell it

[00:02:42.54] spk_1:
Russia, It’s like honey, it’s like a sweet honey. It’s wonderful. So what’s going on with you and the PG agency?

[00:03:27.44] spk_2:
The agency, the plan giving agency. Well, you know, I’m a creative person as my title suggests on tony-martignetti non profit radio And so I am in the creative space of philanthropy and I kind of specialized in planned giving, which tony um is a very great expert on and so I help non profits make the most out of their burgeoning plan giving programs. And a lot of times it’s just they have nothing. And I come in and I create sort of a nice back end for them and help them talk to them a little bit about talking to their donors about making a gift of a lifetime, like leaving their favorite charity and their estate plans or is the beneficiary of a retirement plan and you know, all those wonderful things in the wonderful world of plan giving.

[00:03:43.84] spk_1:
Cool. Yes, I do know a couple things about it a lot and uh, welcome the creative energy that, that

[00:04:08.14] spk_2:
you bring. Not only I, but I learned a lot from you tony that’s how we first met, because I was writing an article for something and I, you were my expert and then I said, you know, I have to write this stuff and sometimes I don’t understand. And you said, well, you can reach out to me if you have a question about something. And I did, I’d say, well, what’s this or what’s that? And you’d explain it really well. And I still remember a lot of the things that you told me at the very beginning and I use those in my, in my practice today, such as, you know, spending a lot of time trying to reach and engage younger donors and tony was like, don’t you want the money sooner.

[00:04:17.47] spk_1:
I remember you were writing that article, I remember who you were writing it for two. Yes,

[00:04:22.27] spk_2:
yes, yes.

[00:04:34.44] spk_1:
That, that brought us together. Yes. And then I knew you had a background in radio. And so I I saw your, I saw your wisdom about starting a radio show. That’s, that’s the podcast of

[00:04:52.84] spk_2:
course. Exactly, Exactly. And so you built it out really as a radio show and it’s, it’s cool that way because a lot of times podcasts are kind of like podcasting, but if you do more, if you treat it more like a radio show, it’s a lot more robust and that’s what yours is. You have this very robust quote podcast that’s really more like a traditional radio show with a lot of elements that breaks and things like that. And so it’s really a radio show rather than a podcast to me

[00:05:02.14] spk_1:
and no, no, no surprise at that because Claire Meyerhoff was creative producer. So you, you coached me along and I had some nodules to copy like I was like the car talk guys and uh, but yeah, you were instrumental and help me put some of those elements in and thinking about it as

[00:05:17.06] spk_2:
radio but you did the work. A lot of work.

[00:05:34.24] spk_1:
Oh, thank you. Let’s bring scott stein in scott, Stein, Brooklyn new york composer, composer of our theme song, which we’re gonna hear in full, of course, Brooklyn new york based pianist, songwriter, arranger, conductor and music director. Scott stein music dot com scott. Welcome to the show.

[00:05:38.24] spk_4:
Thank you. Great to see you again, Tony and Claire. That’s uh we feel like we’re getting the band back together after every 50 shows, we get to do this. It’s the reunion

[00:05:47.55] spk_2:
tour where the snow happening

[00:06:00.44] spk_1:
were the snacks. Where’s the craft services? Yeah, no, absolutely scott. I love your, I still love the song, cheap red wine. Uh, it opens and closes every single show. I’m so glad that mutual lawyer friend of ours jo Becker brought us together.

[00:06:08.44] spk_4:
Yeah. My old roommate, back from, back from both of our bachelor days. Ohio

[00:06:11.79] spk_1:
Ohio Ohio State was it?

[00:06:19.34] spk_4:
Uh, I went to Ohio State. He was one of my roommates here in new york. Ah, okay. So

[00:06:21.64] spk_1:
because you’re originally an Ohio

[00:06:22.84] spk_4:
guy, right? I am. I’m originally from Akron Ohio and a graduate of the Ohio State University. Good bucks.

[00:06:30.64] spk_2:
I did not know that all those years. You’re from Akron. It’s near Toledo, right. Akron

[00:06:47.84] spk_4:
actually opposite part of the state. So yeah, well Toledo’s northwestern Ohio’s north. Excuse me. Akron is northeast is close to Cleveland. Oh, okay. You know, it’s okay. Most people mix up Akron and Dayton.

[00:06:52.04] spk_2:
Yes. Well Jaden’s in the south more towards like Louisville.

[00:06:55.21] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s called Cincinnati. The south,

[00:06:58.24] spk_2:
right, Cincinnati

[00:07:00.07] spk_1:
and scott. You just moved? You just did an intra Brooklyn

[00:07:20.44] spk_4:
move? I did. I just up the block same street about maybe four blocks north. Uh, yeah, so we moved in on friday. So it’s, it is a wonder that there are not more boxes on either side of me right now. There are some there just out of there, just out of picture right now. So

[00:07:23.82] spk_1:
is non profit radio your first gig since in the new apartment.

[00:07:47.14] spk_4:
Uh, well I guess it’s the first gig in the apartment. I had a gig just outside of the apartment yesterday and another one the day before that. So actually I moved at a rather busy work time, which was a little bit of a balancing act. All right, but we’re with you and then I’m going to be hitting the studio on Tuesday, starting in a new record. Our first session is Tuesday, so because that wasn’t busy enough, I thought I would squeeze in a problem into that because planning is something I am clearly very good at.

[00:08:02.84] spk_2:
Right? And then, and then you took on that catering job and that was really just the end of it all,

[00:08:08.01] spk_4:
you know?

[00:08:10.64] spk_0:
Uh,

[00:08:11.83] spk_4:
that’s, you know,

[00:08:12.79] spk_1:
he’s been doing some political consulting to. Right. Right. So we’re your inaugural gig in your new apartment. That’s what I, I like. I like being inaugural for anything. I find something

[00:08:40.14] spk_4:
inaugural. Yeah. Do I have because I’m not teaching over the summer, which is something I was doing over zoom the whole year um, and uh, and even ransom choir rehearsals over zoom when we’re during the pandemic before we could meet up in person and uh, so, but that’s been off for the last few weeks, last month or so, so yes, so this is the first zoom session in the new apartments.

[00:08:47.88] spk_1:
Outstanding. Very, a milestone to milestone. You’ll always treasure

[00:08:51.54] spk_4:
naturally. Indeed,

[00:08:52.81] spk_1:
it’s good. It’s really good to have you back with the uh, on the anniversary show, on the

[00:09:04.14] spk_4:
11th anniversary. Always, always happy to reconnect and like as they get the band back together. So great! All right,

[00:09:07.94] spk_1:
Claire

[00:09:14.24] spk_2:
tony I have something very important I want to talk about, We’re going to have the very first Tony awards.

[00:09:18.31] spk_0:
Now

[00:10:14.44] spk_2:
you might be thinking listeners that the Tony awards are all about broadway, but they’re not. They’re about guests from tony-martignetti non profit radio Those are the real Tony awards and today we’re going to pepper them throughout our show. So I’d like to give out the very first tony award and you know, an award requires an actual award. And I thought I’d let you guys choose. So should the award be a troll? Blue haired troll? All right. A fossil from Hack alito’s canyon in Coalinga California. These are fossil. Um sand dollars. Mhm. A nun. My friend Marianne gave me because we have a joke about nuns who run and this is a nun who runs or one of my mother’s antique little things that I saw and I thought, well that looks like an award. So what should we cheers guys troll fossil. None falls. That looks like an

[00:10:18.89] spk_4:
award. Well, when you mentioned none to broadway shows came to mind when with the sound of music and the other was sister act. So that gets my vote.

[00:11:24.14] spk_2:
All right, that’s going to be the award and not that everybody’s going to see it, but we’re not going to keep talking about. It’s a little it’s a little new guys will see it. We’ll just say it’s a little nun doll. It’s a little none. It runs you go like that. It runs across the counter. It’s like my little thing and Marianne, we joke about it a lot. Okay, so for the very first Tony award given out the award for very first guest goes to Yes, we’ll just do a little music under music. Music, Music, Music, dramatic, dramatic, tony Award. Music. Hi. And the award for very first guest goes to Steve Imparato Steve. Here’s your reward. Steve’s not here. I’ll accept in his in his accidents. So he was the very first guest on Tony-Martignetti non profit radio on July 23, 2010. So Tony how do you recall steve’s appearance on the show?

[00:11:40.94] spk_1:
Uh Well it was at that time it was the tony-martignetti show. Uh It was actually, I I hesitate to correct my esteemed creative producer. It was July 16. You’re you’re confused,

[00:11:42.12] spk_2:
You gave your 7 23. Okay, never mind

[00:11:45.97] spk_1:
You were July 23, I just

[00:11:48.45] spk_2:
Saw this date. Okay, okay, July 2013

[00:12:02.64] spk_1:
By Claire Meyerhoff came on the show on July 23 a week later, after Steve the show was changed, it was no longer the tony-martignetti show because you claire explained to me that nobody knows what the hell tony-martignetti show

[00:12:06.74] spk_2:
is right, is about is it about cooking, Is it about trolls? Like what is it about? So I thought I said to him tony you just have to have the word non profit in there somewhere. Just shove the word non profit into your, into your title,

[00:12:38.54] spk_1:
has to have it shoved in tony-martignetti and nonprofit radio And so by the second week of of the show which was now newly named so you were on July 23, 2016 you were on the first tony-martignetti non profit radio Claremore off talking about uh storytelling

[00:12:57.24] spk_2:
Amazing. So that was 10, 11, almost 11 years, 11, it is 11 years ago, it is 11, well on the 23rd it’ll be 11 years. I expect a nice gift. I want a Bugatti and a villa on lake como. Thank you. I will take nothing less.

[00:12:59.22] spk_1:
Very italian themed. Okay, well we’ll give you is a nun, we have a doll. None for you

[00:13:04.10] spk_2:
know I already have that for mary.

[00:13:06.01] spk_1:
We won’t take yours away. How about that?

[00:13:09.19] spk_2:
Okay, I’ll get another one. She’ll have a little friend. I’ll give it to Marion.

[00:13:13.24] spk_1:
But that was the very first show and you were on the very second show.

[00:13:26.64] spk_2:
I was all right. So we have another award to give out scott a little music for atmosphere. Thank you. And the second Tony award goes to the Tony award for longest distance guest. That’s the guest who phoned in from the furthest away it is. Let’s open the envelope. Matt Barnett from Sydney Australia on november 30th 2020 matt, here’s your award tony Tell us about matt

[00:13:56.14] spk_1:
matt Barnett is the papa bear. He calls himself papa bear of his company, which is Bond Euro and they do personalized videos. So he’s the ceo of bonds Euro, but his title is papa bear. And uh yeah, he zoomed with me from Sydney Australia as you said,

[00:14:05.14] spk_2:
That’s fabulous with a big time difference as well. So he had to accommodate that.

[00:14:20.34] spk_1:
Uh, we, we both, yeah, I think I was up a little early and he was up a little late. Uh, one of the other, I think I was like nine o’clock and maybe he was seven or eight in the morning the next day. Something like that. Some, something like that.

[00:14:29.64] spk_2:
Yeah, wow, that’s, that’s awesome. All right. We have, we have another Tony award and it is for the guest who came closest to having a heart attack in the studio. And that award goes to Dennis Miller, tony Tell us about Dennis

[00:15:06.34] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis ran a long way from, from, I think the nearest spot that a cab could drop him off. This was the very first studio on West 72nd Street and he was stuck in us. Uh he was stuck in traffic and he uh it wasn’t, I’m pretty sure it was not the subway, he was stuck in traffic, he told the cabbie he would just bail out and uh he hooked it a couple of blocks and

[00:15:09.22] spk_2:
uh

[00:15:13.14] spk_1:
Dennis Dennis is not spelt, so he was, he was a little red, he was a little red cheeked and heavy breathing and then you had to come up the stairs, one story.

[00:15:20.34] spk_2:
I remember

[00:15:27.44] spk_1:
one flight of stairs to add a little more exercise to his couple block run. Um so I we did the best SAm and I remember SAm the

[00:15:31.48] spk_2:
producer. Yes, I know SAm. Well,

[00:15:37.24] spk_1:
uh we did the best to calm him down and uh I did a little improv and then we brought him in and he was fine. Dennis was fine and he was brilliant.

[00:15:41.79] spk_2:
And so who is Dennis Miller? What does he do? And why was he a nonprofit radio

[00:15:45.68] spk_1:
Dennis Miller is a frequent writer about board’s approval board, very important, a strategic planning with your board retreat,

[00:15:56.04] spk_2:
yep,

[00:15:56.74] spk_1:
we were talking about, we have been talking about the board and fundraising, but

[00:16:01.94] spk_2:
it was right, Yes, that’s that’s that’s enough to give you a heart attack right there, trying to get your board to do some fundraising. Very

[00:16:11.64] spk_1:
good claire, that’s Dennis Miller,

[00:16:28.94] spk_2:
that’s Dennis Miller. Okay. And we have a we have a final in this little segment, this is the final tony award for, for this, this little segment of our show and it goes to the Tony Award, goes to the weirdest guest and the weirdest guest is Sandor Katz, tony I’ll let you explain our weirdest guests, Sand or cats and the lessons you’ve learned.

[00:17:18.34] spk_1:
Yes, you learned a lesson. I should have consulted you first or you know, maybe I did and you advised me against it and I, uh stupidly you can’t be ignored your advice. I don’t remember what sequence it was, but it was my, it was my original idea. I’m not, I’m not putting that on you. I thought, well it’s a podcast for nonprofit folks, but maybe, you know, folks and nonprofits have multidimensional lives, so maybe I can capture some of the, some of that breath in, in the non profit radio podcast. And I invited someone to come on and talk about fermentation implementation. Uh, yeah, as you said, his name was Sandor Katz, but he, he called himself Sander crowd because sauerkraut is a

[00:17:20.84] spk_2:
popular, uh, that’s true, it is,

[00:17:23.92] spk_1:
This was August 2nd of 2013,

[00:18:00.44] spk_2:
so three years in, you decided let’s let’s shake it up a little bit. Let’s have some fermenting topics now. I remember that because I think you had a wine person on one time, like you’ve done a couple of them where you thought, well let’s do like some other stuff. And I said, well tony it’s, it’s better to just stick like stay with the message. Like stay with what the show is about like on car talk. They don’t like have a nonprofit segment on car talk. They talk about cars unless it’s like something about like, you know, cars with nonprofits. Like if like if Sandor Katz had run like the, you know, the fermentation 501 C3, right? The nonprofit groups supporting um fermentation?

[00:18:05.34] spk_1:
Yes, that would have been ideal. That would have been that he had no connection to night connection to non profit He was the furthest thing I could find from nonprofits and

[00:18:13.33] spk_2:
he talked a long time and tony just we’re both in the studio and I’m like, I’m giving tony like the stink eye and I’m like, yeah, tony that’s what that’s all about. He’s like, this guy is talking about the pickles and

[00:18:50.54] spk_1:
chocolate, coffee, sauerkraut wine, all these champagne versus wine. So yeah, I learned a lesson. I learned a lot and uh claire you were spot on podcasts are about narrow and deep, you take your narrow niche and you run deep in it and you don’t try to bring in fermentation or uh, or uh wine enthusiasm or anything else. So at

[00:19:08.04] spk_2:
least it was like a really like weird one that we can still talk about years later. It’s, it’s not like the tipping point with something about like a guy who does custom framing or something like that wouldn’t be that funny, but like this guy was all about the fermenting and now we can we can joke about that. But but yes, he got the Tony awards, so we’ll have to send that to him and maybe he will send us a lifetime supply of sauerkraut.

[00:19:14.64] spk_1:
All

[00:19:19.24] spk_2:
right, we’re moving on.

[00:19:37.84] spk_1:
We have someone who just joined us. We will get to your song into the 2nd Scott in a few minutes. Let’s bring in, let’s bring in as soon as he piers. This is Stefan, Stefan. Szabo. Best to Stefan welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:19:44.14] spk_3:
Hey, nice to meet you. Happy to be here.

[00:19:47.94] spk_1:
Thank you. Did I say your name right? I wanna make sure is it sure best to?

[00:19:51.84] spk_3:
Oh perfect, very nice.

[00:19:53.98] spk_1:
It’s

[00:19:54.91] spk_2:
just the way it looks. It’s a beautiful name, Stefan Sebesta.

[00:19:58.84] spk_3:
Thanks

[00:20:00.05] spk_1:
Stephanie is Ceo of one of our sponsors, our newest sponsor, Send In Blue, which is a digital marketing platform, Stefan thanks so much for joining us.

[00:20:11.04] spk_3:
Thanks and congrats on your 550th show your 11 year anniversary.

[00:20:26.44] spk_1:
Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m glad you could be with us. Thank you. Um so tell us a little about sending Blue. Want to give you a couple of minutes to uh talk about this digital marketing platform and how sending Blue helps nonprofits.

[00:21:34.64] spk_3:
Sure, happy to do so, so sad. And blue, you know, as we were founded in in 2012, we really have this vision of helping small and medium businesses and many nonprofits are fall into this category to help these kind of business is to be on equal footing with the big players, the amazons of this world and to empower them and enable them to do similar marketing, online marketing activities. So we started with email marketing and then added more and more channels over time. And our really, our our vision is to provide a very easy to use, very affordable tool to small and medium businesses to grow there, to grow their revenue to for nonprofits, you know, um fundraising is very important. So we give a lot of tools that you can use apart from email marketing, you can have a landing page generator facebook as the chat chat about that you can put on your website, Syria. Um, and so we’ve added more and more functionality and it’s, you know, that’s really what what’s in blue stands for.

[00:21:43.44] spk_1:
So like full spectrum enterprise level digital marketing,

[00:21:44.79] spk_3:
but enterprise

[00:21:46.35] spk_1:
enterprise, but enterprise, like enterprise quality

[00:22:12.54] spk_3:
for non profits At at at a price that’s really affordable for for for small businesses. And that’s easy to use where you don’t need to have maybe an 80 team or a dedicated marketing manager. You can, everything is very visual. You can use our drag and drop editor, create planning pages or emails and it’s it’s really easy to to set up campaigns and become successful. And like I said, be on equal footing with these bigger players that have much higher budgets, of course.

[00:22:34.44] spk_1:
Cool. Right. So you get that quality without the enterprise level pricing, That’s exactly right, awesome. So distinguish between some sending blue and some of the bigger names that may or may not be, you know, appropriate, like, you know, constant contact and mail chimp what we’re sending blue, what is sending blue do that? These guys don’t

[00:23:50.64] spk_3:
phenomena. So one thing I mentioned is really, it’s a very comprehensive tool, right? We offer all these different channels that you can combine and make your online marketing extremely powerful With that. Apart from that we, You know, we offer very affordable product. We have very good customer service basically 24/7 and six different languages. So that’s something that nobody, nobody else offers in our industry either. And overall, you know, it’s a lot of features and maybe there are different um preferences for for each customer. But We really targeted white audience. We have over 300,000 paying customers worldwide. Originally the European company and you know, for for one person may be the functionality is more important for the other one that’s a customer service for another one. Maybe it might be the data privacy regulations that we have to follow european, G D P R C C A and so on. So we’re really, really focused on that as well. Um and for for others who might just be, you know, the ease of, of, of using the product. So um it’s different for for each customer basically.

[00:24:26.94] spk_1:
Cool. Alright. Easy to use price for nonprofits. Um and non profit radio listeners get a free month. Yes. And in blue uh free straight out exactly. You go to the listener landing page at send in blue aptly named. That’s easy to remember. Yeah, Stefan. Thanks so much. Real pleasure. And and and thank you. Thank you. And thanks to the team. It’s sending blue for your, your sponsorship of nonprofit radio Thank you so much.

[00:24:35.94] spk_3:
No problem. Thanks.

[00:24:40.11] spk_1:
Thanks so

[00:24:40.78] spk_3:
much.

[00:24:45.04] spk_1:
That’s fine. You got a song for us?

[00:24:48.54] spk_4:
I do. It’s about fermentation

[00:24:50.94] spk_2:
awesome.

[00:24:54.34] spk_4:
That may or may not be true.

[00:24:56.94] spk_1:
All right, you got for

[00:26:08.94] spk_4:
us. I’m gonna play this song off the new record that we’re gonna be doing uh starting tomorrow. Um uh the song is called on my way and it’s about a trip that I took to New Orleans and um I everywhere I went although I you could still kind of see um like remnants of what happened during hurricane Katrina if you look closely enough. And and I had I had been there initially a couple of years after Katrina and hadn’t gone back since uh this this trip was about two years ago and and I was just on one hand I was just taking it in because I love New Orleans, I love just hanging out there. Obviously it’s a great music city. Um But you you kind of scratch under the service and you can see you know some of the scars of what happened. And I thought that was just a really interesting um dichotomy there. So that’s that’s a little bit of what informed this song. So this is this is called on my way. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:29:28.44] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m on my way. I could still find my way out of the ordinary back into the frame. But it takes some of that comfort and it cast it aside, slip out of the jacket. It’s the ball of the way outside. The wind is at my back to push me through the sorrow way through the storm And the swell as for the destination. It’s too early to tell there in a while in the solace. Ain’t no river a trust ain’t no poetry to this life baby. We only do what we must and I cannot step the time. I can only stand in wonder and I grab a hold of the ball Bowlby older I breathe different and I got a swagger in my stride. I’m walking through the war. There’s the mighty river at my side but new Orleans bears the scars now and it’s shaping in its storm, which is the threat of rain, reminds her of the memories of the storm. Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah. Take all that I am. Take all that I was Yeah. Try to pull myself together the right kind of bus. Take all of my love, take all of my sins. Ain’t no use trying to polish up the mess that I’ve been. But I will be better. I will be better better than before. Uh huh. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Who scott stone?

[00:29:32.44] spk_1:
Thanks scott stein. Wonderful,

[00:29:33.58] spk_2:
thank you, lovely, thank

[00:29:35.34] spk_1:
you. Excellent. And that’s going to be on the new album. Do you know the name of the new album

[00:29:39.37] spk_4:
scott? I don’t just yet, I’ve got some ideas I’m kicking around but it’s uh we’re pretty early in the process right now.

[00:29:50.74] spk_1:
You’re starting recording tomorrow. Indeed, I didn’t know creative process runs.

[00:30:12.04] spk_4:
It depends sometimes, like I’ve got an idea, you know, coming out of the gate. Uh, sometimes I have one, I don’t want to share it right away. Sometimes one record the woman with cheap red wine. I think I came up with the title of that record jukebox. Uh, we were mastering the record, we were all done and I still didn’t have a title. And uh, so it happens when it happens.

[00:30:16.94] spk_1:
Okay, okay, mastering. That’s one of those insider terms. I love

[00:30:19.13] spk_4:
that. That’s the last, it’s the last step of the last thing you do and then it’s done. You

[00:30:30.34] spk_1:
know the lingo, you’re an insider musical insider. I know. All right, Claire.

[00:30:32.54] spk_2:
I think we have more Tony awards to give out. So do we.

[00:30:37.44] spk_0:
I think we do.

[00:31:11.74] spk_2:
I would like to present the Tony Award for 2021 to most newsworthy guests on the Tony-Martignetti nonprofit radio show and the Tony award for most news where the guest goes to Barbara Newhouse, the ceo of A. L. S. The A. L. S Association and the ice bucket challenge competition that was so well known and successful back in the day. And tony nabbed that high profile guest. Yes, yes,

[00:31:51.84] spk_1:
Indeed. That was that was October of 2014, 3, 2014. May recall, uh, if you were working around nonprofits then the, the ice bucket challenge. It was the summer of 2014 and it pretty much wrapped up by labor day of 2014. So early October I got Barbara Newhouse on the show and actually recorded that in the Chronicle of philanthropy office in Washington, D. C. That was a collaboration between non profit radio and the Chronicle of philanthropy. They promoted it and I did too. And I did the interview with Barbara Newhouse.

[00:32:12.74] spk_2:
Really, that’s wonderful. And now I have another award to give out and it’s for Tony’s favorite guests. So the Tony award for favorite guest goes to and it’s a tie Tony’s favorite guests receiving the Tony award are Amy sample Ward and jean to the hockey. I can never say his name. Right. I’m a terrible

[00:32:19.64] spk_0:
host. Yeah, I couldn’t pick just one of

[00:32:20.79] spk_1:
you. Welcome. Welcome. Hey, you are my favorite. Together. You are my favorite. Get

[00:32:26.03] spk_2:
your tony award

[00:32:28.04] spk_0:
or

[00:32:30.31] spk_2:
are you going to Patrol?

[00:32:32.14] spk_5:
I am very happy to share with jean.

[00:32:35.54] spk_7:
Me too, Amy, thank you for the Auto

[00:32:49.44] spk_1:
tony include Absolutely, absolutely. Together. My favorite guest, Uh, Jean, Jean started on nonprofit radio on, on show number seven show number. So

[00:32:57.14] spk_2:
right, that’s right. So he also wins the award for longest running guest jean. He gets to awards 20

[00:32:58.81] spk_7:
10 I think

[00:33:10.94] spk_1:
It was, it was 27 absolutely. It was, it was August 27 of 2010. Exactly right. That was the 7th show we had just started the month before. And Amy joined non profit radio on the 100th show.

[00:33:18.14] spk_5:
Yes, because I remember thinking like there’s all this stuff going on. What what is this show? You know,

[00:33:30.64] spk_1:
I didn’t know I wasn’t sure myself. So that would have been the 100th show would have been July of 2012 and with us ever since. So welcome. Welcome to the anniversary. Welcome

[00:33:36.92] spk_7:
congrats.

[00:34:10.74] spk_1:
Thank you. Thanks very much and you get you’re both gonna stay with us. Right, both of you are gonna stay for the duration. All right. All right. Um Amy, what’s what’s up at and 10 I should have said Amy, sample ward of course are technology and social media contributor naturally, you all know, you all know Amy and jeanne aimee Ceo of N 10 at 10 10 dot org. And AMY is at AMy R S Ward. What’s up in the MERS Ward or the N 10 World? You what’s up there?

[00:34:55.54] spk_5:
We Well, lots of good things. I mean, you know, we’re now in our Fy 22 Every, every year we get to like put stuff behind us, no more of the last 12 months, you know? Um I mean right now we’re getting ready to launch 22 NTC, you know, sessions, emissions folks have been tons of folks already volunteered to be on the committee’s. So doing all of that planning now and getting ready. I think that will be launched or announced to the community in like two weeks. So stand by watch that inbox. Get ready to pencil things into your calendar.

[00:34:57.84] spk_1:
Um Okay. 22 T. C. The nonprofit technology conference. Yeah. Where is that where is that going to be?

[00:35:06.54] spk_5:
I think that’s part of

[00:35:07.62] spk_1:
the is that part of the reveal reveal?

[00:35:11.31] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:35:12.25] spk_5:
Yes. Can

[00:35:13.54] spk_2:
you give us a hint? I

[00:35:22.54] spk_5:
can say all of you are invited and all of you can definitely make it.

[00:35:23.74] spk_0:
Okay.

[00:35:37.34] spk_1:
Okay Jean. Okay we’re waiting up so a couple of weeks we’re gonna hear about 20-80. Okay Jeanne, what’s going out? Gene of course our legal contributor uh Principal of

[00:35:39.05] spk_5:
Jean jean will appreciate the way that I nimbly answered your question,

[00:35:44.94] spk_7:
definitely looking at a legal second career

[00:35:47.88] spk_5:
Amy

[00:36:09.43] spk_1:
Jeanne, our legal contributor. He’s a principal attorney at neo the nonprofit and exempt organization law group in san Francisco Neo law group dot com. He edits the wildly popular nonprofit law blog, which everyone should be subscribing to. It’s Simple Gene. It breaks things down. That’s why he’s our legal contributor. No, no.

[00:36:14.58] spk_5:
We email the intent board with links to jeans blog. Anytime they ask us a question, we don’t need to answer this. Gene already answered this. Here’s the answer. Go read this blog post jean. Can I ask you a question and take over the show.

[00:36:27.13] spk_1:
Absolutely.

[00:37:43.53] spk_5:
So we, because Anton puts on a big conference, um, we are connected to lots of other event planners and other organizations, you know, that have the big enough events where you’re like conventions and our hotel contracts, all these different pieces, you know, and really until a month or so ago, if you had contracts, it was, it was scary and stressful, but you were going to get out of them because you were legally not allowed to have events, you know? But now Covid’s over or something and like no more restrictions. So organizations that had contracts, you know, maybe for this summer and thought, okay, well we don’t have to worry. Like obviously we can’t have events like that can be over. Will plan something else are now stuck in this like, oh, I guess we are going to be beholden to these legal contracts that have massive fines because you know, the governor of whatever state is no longer barred events of, of a certain size or something, you know, Are you seeing, are you seeing folks trying to navigate that or did they somehow successfully negotiate out and we haven’t heard from them or what are you seeing in that world?

[00:38:40.02] spk_7:
So in anticipation of Tony’s question to me about what was going on, that’s a lot of what’s going on right now. Organizations trying to figure out post covid kind of post covid or wherever we happen to be now, how do we proceed? And yeah, having provision in the contract not to sell lawyers services, but right now is a time before you enter into a big contract for an event. You want to make sure you’ve got language in there that allocates risk and protects you. So to the extent you can and most contracts are not like rental card contracts where you have to agree to whatever they put in, most of them can be negotiated, that’s something to think of. And so tony great summer a lot of work. A lot of changes going on here. I hope everything’s been going well with you two.

[00:38:45.22] spk_1:
Oh absolutely. Um and Amy is going to get a bill from you for a legal consultation and I get a 30% cut of that because it’s cutting into non profit radio I like I like how she asked like how Amy asked jean, can I ask you a question and take over the show? She didn’t ask jean, ask the host,

[00:39:01.32] spk_2:
can I ask a question? Let’s keep

[00:39:27.02] spk_1:
advice for intend for free. Can I do that? I shouldn’t ask. All right. Uh no, we’re glad to help. We’re here to help nonprofits. We’re here to help nonprofits of course. And I want to introduce both of you to Scott. Stein, who you’ve not met. Scott is the composer of cheap red wine, which is our theme song that you hear at the intro and outro of every single, every single day.

[00:39:27.54] spk_5:
Didn’t we meet last july in this same

[00:39:30.32] spk_0:
setup

[00:39:36.52] spk_4:
I was gonna say Yeah, I think we did meet over zoom about a year ago.

[00:39:37.66] spk_1:
Okay, it would have been a year ago. Alright, well, back

[00:39:43.50] spk_7:
and Scott’s composition is incredible. So, the theme song,

[00:39:49.82] spk_1:
we all love cheap red wine. Absolutely. We’re going to hear it. We’re gonna hear it later on Scott. You’ve got another song for us right now though. Yeah,

[00:41:00.41] spk_4:
yeah, absolutely. I’ll do it off the forthcoming new record. Actually. I I think I did this one on your show, probably the lesson. We did it in person. I’m gonna do it again because we’re about to go record it. Um But I wrote it the morning of the show. I’d had this chorus kicking around in my head for several months. And remember I that morning I had gone, I dropped my my son off at daycare, who’s now too. So we probably about six months old at that point. And um after I got home, I had about maybe, 2030 minutes before I had to leave to come meet with you and I was like, go I just had my second cup of coffee. It kicked in. One of my favorite songwriters, dan Wilson is fond of saying that human songwriters are machines, you input espresso and songs come out. So, and that’s kind of what happened. So I’m paraphrasing, he said it more eloquently than I did. Alright. But anyway, so this is uh, so the two that was debuted on your show a couple years ago, I’m gonna rip res it here. I remember,

[00:41:12.75] spk_1:
I remember you telling that story,

[00:41:25.01] spk_4:
please. Yeah, it was that morning and I just like there there it was, oh, that’s what that song is supposed to be. So here it is. Uh, this is called, It’s a Good Life. Oh, I had to remember what key it was in. All right. Here we go.

[00:45:37.39] spk_0:
Uh huh. Yeah, I got some inside information. Someone slipped me a copy of the master plan. My sources are were reliable with the rental language. I don’t understand. You know, I’ve always been a cynic since the day. I can remember ways skipping past silver lightings. Always looking for the snow in september. But baby baby baby is a good high Oh baby baby. It’s a good hi. No matter who you are, you can’t see the nearest store. Baby baby. It’s a good I some days you’re offer busy. Some days you can’t get a damn thing. You’ve done. Some days you get the car keys. Some days it’s the keys. The thing that giants that you love lying. Very good reasons. But baby baby baby. It’s a good uh Oh, it’s a good lot. No matter how you sing the song, there’s always someone singing along baby baby, it’s good, allow once was up getting her what? Baby, baby, baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good I don’t, you stick to what you know, let me fly watching. Oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Oh baby baby, it’s a good oh baby baby, it’s a good life. Yeah.

[00:45:54.59] spk_1:
Who scott stein thanks, I love that. Of course. I love the song debuted on nonprofit radio a couple of years ago. World world premiere was

[00:45:56.40] spk_4:
non profit here. It was an hour long, it was an hour old, that newborn.

[00:46:21.28] spk_1:
Thank you. Beautiful scott. Thank you scott stein scott stein music dot com. We had a couple of folks, uh, we had a couple of folks join us, another sponsor of nonprofit radio from turn to communications. Peter Pan a pento and scott. Westcott, both partners. That turn to Peter scott Welcome.

[00:46:24.68] spk_6:
Great to be here. And we, we came together even though we worked six hours apart. This was such a big occasion for us. I drove up to Erie pennsylvania to be here. So,

[00:46:34.78] spk_1:
uh, well and Scott living in here. He knows what a sacrifice that was.

[00:46:38.97] spk_8:
Yeah, it’s serious, but it’s not in the winner. So I mean, it’s a little bit, Yeah.

[00:46:57.68] spk_1:
Okay, Welcome. Welcome to the, to the anniversary show. Peter Scott for having us and, and thank you for your sponsorship as well. Grateful, grateful for that. Thank you. Turn to communications Media pr For, for nonprofits. Tell us tell us a little more detail than I’m able to go into in my 32nd sponsored messages.

[00:47:36.48] spk_6:
Sure. So, um, Scott and I started turn to communications about four years ago and we’ve been working, um, for quite a while building on our background as journalists and folks who’ve worked in and around the sector for a number of years, um, to help nonprofits um, tell their stories more effectively in the media and also be much, um, much clearer and more direct with reaching their target audiences through their content. So we work with quite a few community foundations, a number of national and local nonprofits and have really enjoyed, uh, helping nonprofits raise awareness about their work, um, dr action and and get results on some of their advocacy campaigns. And in some cases, raise some more money to

[00:48:12.77] spk_1:
scott. I’m often talking about the relationships that you can help folks build with media outlets. And as I’m doing the sponsor messages. Um, so, you know, for the weekly shows, talk about a little about the value of those relationships, how you build those relationships with media when when you’re not looking to be quoted or, or be a source.

[00:49:00.87] spk_8:
Yeah, so I think it’s, you know, there’s some legwork there and it’s a matter of, you know, first of all understanding what the journalists are looking for, what they need, and then voting that relationship over time, uh, being as useful as possible to them, you know, because they’re obviously swamped these days. I mean, they get hundreds of emails a day, you know, everyone pitching a story. So we really do focus on that relationship, you know, getting, you know, journalists what they’re working on what their beat is. Um, so, hey, we can be top of mind for them, you know, when they are doing a story and be just being able to give them information and get them sources in in the fastest way possible. So, uh, that ended up being a beneficial

[00:49:23.27] spk_6:
relationship for everybody, really does. And I think, you know, so much of our approach to media relations is to almost treat, um, not just our clients as clients, but the journalists themselves as clients. And in some cases finding ways to to be support to them, um, when it doesn’t necessarily benefit the organizations we work with, but building trust with them, making sure if if we can’t get them an answer or get them the people they need through our network, um, reaching out and connecting them with people who we might not be working with so that we can, you know, provide them with value and build

[00:49:51.87] spk_1:
trust. And isn’t that just basic, that’s just basic relationship building in any in any in any network or bunch of friends, you know, you get to know each other and you help each other when when someone needs help you. And there’s and there’s no, you know, there’s no benefit for you. You don’t even think about

[00:49:56.12] spk_8:
that journalists or human beings.

[00:49:59.40] spk_1:
I’ve heard, I’ve heard rumors to that effect. Yes.

[00:50:07.86] spk_2:
Well as a journalist, as a, as a, as a working longtime journalist, we are human. Absolutely. But then we leave and work for nonprofits and uh,

[00:50:14.08] spk_1:
you know,

[00:50:14.32] spk_8:
I think you’re right Tony, I mean, basically the same same fundamentals

[00:50:40.66] spk_1:
and you both are journalists. So you’ve gotten, you’ve been on the receiving end of thousands of pitches, tens of thousands through the years. Peter used to be at the Chronicle of philanthropy. So you have a special niche within nonprofits. Um, so the two of you together, you know, it’s a, it’s an ideal relationship. And uh, and I’m, I’m pleased to say tell folks that, that the plane giving accelerator that I have is a, is a, is a client of turn two.

[00:51:06.96] spk_6:
That’s right. And uh, yeah, so tony Uh, you know, we, we often tell the story on your anniversary shows about how, um, you came into the Chronicle office back when I was working there with the idea for tony-martignetti non profit radio And we actually did a kind of a parallel podcast through the Chronicle for a number of years to so tony was a podcasting pioneer, which

[00:51:52.86] spk_1:
thank you maybe maybe just an early adopter, an early adopter, maybe you’re being degenerate, but thank you, thank you. Yeah. And you can find that old collaboration that I did with the, uh, with, with the Chronicle of philanthropy. It’s called fundraising fundamentals. It ran about four or 5 years, Much shorter, like 12, 10, 12, 15 minutes was the longest episode we ever did. And but it’s still out, it’s still on apple podcasts and I don’t know about other sites, but folks mentioned it to me occasionally fundraising fundamentals and that was peter and I collaborated on that, but that created that so long running relationship. Thanks thanks for and again, thanks for your sponsorship. Turn to thank you

[00:51:58.36] spk_6:
so thrilled to thrilled to have the partnership and you have such a great audience in such great guess. We’re really thrilled to be associated with it.

[00:52:21.55] spk_1:
Thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks to both of you. Oh my pleasure. Um you’re welcome to hang out if you like guys, we’re uh we’re gonna give out some more Tony awards. Claire has some more Tony awards and I should have said uh you all are stuck with a lackluster host, you know that you know that by now I should have said that uh these are the authentic tony awards, those imposter awards on broadway, their name for their name for someone named Antoinette Perry, she’s not, her name isn’t even tony it’s T. O. And I Internet is T. O. And I. But they change it to T. O. N. Y. Awards. I don’t know why they made it a masculine when it was named for a woman. Why did they do that? It’s all about the imposters, imposters

[00:52:50.74] spk_2:
imposters. So they give these awards for what were you know, writing a whole broadway show and performing it on a stage in front of thousands of people and creating joy for millions. Got really come on that all about

[00:53:06.75] spk_1:
the real awards are right. Really? What’s

[00:53:08.11] spk_4:
got its cake? It’s not it’s no work at all

[00:53:11.12] spk_1:
knew scott would take offense at that. Um there’s yeah, no, this is the real these are the real Tony awards right here, Claire you have you have a couple of

[00:53:20.57] spk_2:
couple. We have, we have a couple more awards. Not too many, but the next Tony award. And let me get my

[00:53:28.85] spk_0:
or award the nun the

[00:53:30.29] spk_2:
Tony award for most famous guest on tony-martignetti non profit radio goes to dan Pallotta. tony Tell us about dan Pallotta.

[00:54:10.84] spk_1:
That was April 3, 2015 uh he had a famous or infamous depending on your perspective. Ted Talk called the way something like the way we think about charities or the way we look at charities is all wrong and it was provocative and he got a lot of fame for that he had or infamy again uh when you look at it. Um so millions of views widely, widely um quoted and interviewed Peter you may know did you? I’m sure the Chronicle certainly covered dan Pallotta and his ted talk.

[00:54:19.44] spk_6:
Yes, yes, it got a lot of attention around that time. I was still at the Chronicle back then and you know, I interviewed dan a few times and and he wrote quite a bit of he wrote some provocative op ed pieces back in the day to certainly a big name in the field, although not as much so now. I don’t think

[00:54:47.94] spk_5:
he even was a keynote at the end. You see Peter, do you remember what year that was? It was before I was Ceo, So it so it was not

[00:54:48.82] spk_2:
2013.

[00:54:53.34] spk_5:
It had to have been before 20 12 2011.

[00:54:55.64] spk_6:
It was really yes. Yes. But

[00:55:01.24] spk_5:
I mean his keynote was the same, you know,

[00:55:02.84] spk_0:
topic. Yes, yes.

[00:55:05.74] spk_7:
We didn’t show Tony responding to one of Dan’s offense or his TED Talk in 2013 as well. So we talked about it as

[00:55:13.69] spk_1:
well. That’s right. We did a little postmortem about the issues that he raised. Exactly jean. Thank you.

[00:55:27.54] spk_2:
Interesting. And we have another Tony award that goes to the and I’m going to lower my voice. Softest spoken, famous guest. So the softest spoken famous guest award, Tony award goes to not dan Pallotta, it goes to Craig Newmark, the founder of craigslist, tony Tell us more,

[00:56:07.93] spk_1:
Craig. Newmark is terrific. You know, he founded Craig’s, you have to say Craig Newmark, the founder of Craigslist because nobody knows it because he’s so modest, you know, uh he didn’t turn craigslist into a billion dollar platform uh like so many tech entrepreneurs do. He resisted that. And so, you know, he we don’t know his name the way we know other tech entrepreneurs who can remain unnamed because we all know who they are, Right? So you have to say

[00:56:08.96] spk_5:
being sued by the federal government or what they’ve done with their social media platforms.

[00:56:43.43] spk_1:
Yes. Being sued by the former guy, the former president as well. So Craig Newmark is the founder of craigslist. He resisted the temptation to turn it into a billion dollar platform. He kept it free or very, very low cost and and craigslist exploded for that. And that just exemplifies his character is so you know, he’s modest, he’s soft spoken. Uh and so that’s why he’s got to be non profit radios, most softest spoken famous guests.

[00:56:54.63] spk_2:
And we have one final Tony Award. It’s a very important one. Yeah. And the Tony award for best original score. The Tony award goes to scott stein for a cheap red wine.

[00:57:01.48] spk_0:
Wait till I

[00:57:05.88] spk_4:
have to play underscoring for that

[00:57:07.90] spk_2:
for your own award. Yes, you got to do it all. You’re the only music I hear

[00:57:12.55] spk_4:
stuck. I’m stuck in the orchestra pit, even when I’m getting

[00:57:20.13] spk_2:
congratulations scott. Absolutely. Now you can say now you can say Tony award winning composer scott. Stein

[00:57:26.74] spk_0:
really

[00:57:28.64] spk_2:
with a

[00:57:29.03] spk_5:
little after a big

[00:57:31.25] spk_2:
let’s ask Gina, big asterisk

[00:57:34.67] spk_1:
and, and, and, and note, put it at the end. Not, not the footnote, it’s easier to meet, put it at the end.

[00:57:41.33] spk_4:
Uh, tony-martignetti I’m a big baseball fan. So any award that comes with an asterisk, you know, like,

[00:57:46.83] spk_1:
all

[00:57:47.91] spk_4:
right. Like all the batting titles from like

[00:57:49.84] spk_2:
Pete Rose or

[00:57:51.19] spk_4:
barry bonds is anyway, but thank you.

[00:58:05.72] spk_1:
Absolutely. I love cheap red wine. It’s been our theme song listeners have heard it at the beginning and the end of every single show for many years, many years since we got brought together by a lawyer friend, I mentioned,

[00:58:19.82] spk_4:
uh, josh, Good name of mine. Exactly, joseph, but his name is, joseph goes by josh. But so thank you josh. If you’re I hope you’re out there listening to this right now, so cool.

[00:58:51.32] spk_1:
Thank you josh. Indeed. And I want to thank everybody it’s time for. Thanks Claire Meyerhoff, thank you for co hosting. Thank you for being non profit radios creative producer. You’ll find Claire on linkedin and the company is the planned giving agency PG agency dot com scott Stein. Love it scott. Thank you. Thank you so much. Every anniversary show, I always look forward to it. Thank you very much. You’ll find scott at scott stein music dot com and a new album coming shortly. The recording starts tomorrow, so we don’t really

[00:59:00.52] spk_4:
know. But fall, fall, maybe winter. We’ll see. We’ll see how long this takes

[00:59:43.12] spk_1:
scott stein music dot com. We’ll give you the latest jean takagi principle of neo law group uh the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law group. Neo law group dot com edits that nonprofit law blog at nonprofit law blog dot com. So many aptly named to see everybody took my aptly named host, uh not private law blog dot com. You need to be following that. That’s uh, you know, if you’re not, it’s your life, I can’t help you. Uh you need to. And he’s at G Attack AMy sample award With us since the 100th show ceo of intent and our technology and social media contributor and 10 dot org. And at AMY R. S Ward. I know AMY has to go to a meeting, so thank you, Amy. Thanks for being with us.

[00:59:52.69] spk_5:
Yeah, Thanks everybody. Congratulations, tony

[00:59:56.17] spk_1:
Thank you, Amy. Thanks

[00:59:57.40] spk_5:
congratulations. All the tony winners.

[01:00:05.41] spk_1:
All the tony All the winners. All your fellow award winners. Yes, go tell your staff you won an award. You want to tell

[01:00:07.59] spk_2:
everyone

[01:00:12.71] spk_1:
tony All right. And peter pan Pento scott. Westcott, thank you again for your sponsorship. Uh turn to communications that turn hyphen two dot C. O. And so thank you gentlemen,

[01:00:25.81] spk_6:
thanks so much for giving us a little time. This is

[01:00:27.84] spk_8:
great. We will strive for a Tony award in the future.

[01:00:41.01] spk_1:
Stay. You can the longest running sponsor. If you if you hang in there scott stein, you know you gotta take us out with cheap red wine. All right. Mhm.

[01:05:09.29] spk_0:
Uh huh. Mm Uh huh. I think I just want you you see your romantic investment to build what I’m looking for answers up on a tv screen. We can’t agree on nothing. We had till the ropes from my down. Yeah, we’re disappointed each other not to be baby and just love that we found you know, you used to find me charming. Gonna care figure out how you see you thought I was handsome. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling from my punch lines. As long as your time will allow. God, I reckon promises if I let you read a wine and how wear diamonds and they’re tired of the clothing that way. Yeah. Love to put over for the good stuff and you’re too easily to stretch the tooth care. Well, I ain’t got too many options so I’m gonna do the best that I can. Well maybe you’ll have some competition a day when I’m a wealthy man. You know, you used to ferment your I’m gonna care figure out how you see if you thought it was him. But it doesn’t matter now. So keep falling more. But as long as your time will allow because I’ve got her any promises about ideology, their wine and thou oh yeah, maybe let’s raise our glasses. Take a dream to better days. The other people can kiss our asses, but in life he said, and I ain’t get across the heavens. The woman flashed victory sides because we’re perfect for each other as long as well. Nobody else in mind. Oh yeah. You know, you used to care, figure out how can you say? Never mind. Don’t matter now. So keep falling from a problem in my life, jeanne red or whatever. Mm Next week on nonprofit radio I’m just gonna have to trust me. I was focused on the fire and so I don’t know what’s coming up, but I promise you it will not be the fermentation. She can you missed any part of this week’s show I’ve been finding at tony-martignetti dot com responded by turn to communication. You are currently on profits. Your story is their mission terran hyphen two dot c o. And by sending blue and only all in one digital marketing

[01:05:11.59] spk_2:
pact. Powering

[01:05:12.73] spk_1:
nonprofits to grow.

[01:05:44.79] spk_0:
tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant going through a creative producer is the wonderful Claire Meyerhoff show. Social media is by students Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy And this music is by Scott Steiner. Thank you for that after making money you with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 go out and be bobby.