Nonprofit Radio for May 1, 2020: Real Estate & Racial-Equity DEI

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My Guests:

Jane Brody: Real Estate

How have markets been impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vicus Partners.




Tristan Penn: Racial-Equity DEI
Tristan Penn shares how Coronavirus has disproportionately hurt Black and Indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your nonprofit. Tristan is NTEN‘s community engagement and equity manager. (This is part of our 20NTC coverage.)



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[00:00:12.24] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:02:23.24] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is our first ever show in 487 that is not produced in studio. I put it together using a dizzy audacity and zoom. Let’s see how I did. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I throw is Anthill asthma. If I saw that you missed today’s show Real estate, how have markets being impacted by the pandemic? What do you need to think about before your next move and when should you start your thinking? Jane Brody is executive director at Vikas Partners and Rachel Equity D I. Justin Pen shares how Corona virus has disproportionately hurt black and indigenous people. We also talk about dismantling white power structures that you may not realize exist inside your non profit trust. In his end, tens community engagement and equity manager, this is part of our 20 and TC coverage. Tony Steak, too. Take a breath, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Here is real estate. It’s a real pleasure to welcome to the show. Jane Brody She is executive director at Vikas Partners in New York City. Before Vikas, she helped launch a mentoring program serving over 10,000 Children and a foster care program to help over 8000 teenagers in the system make the transition to independence. She’s been a consultant to Ben and Jerry’s UNICEF, the American Red Cross, Coca Cola and the Special Olympics. She’s done stand up comedy company is at Vikas partners dot com. Jane Brody Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:29.84] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Great to be here.

[00:02:31.52] spk_1:
Real pleasure to have you tell me about your stand up comedy. I’ve done some of that. What’s what were your gigs? Where did you do?

[00:02:38.54] spk_2:
Well, I took a little class, and I always like to do stuff that kind of scares me a little bit and challenges may. So then, after I did the class and we did kind of Gotham startup, I did a couple open mic nights and I was invited back, and I liked it a lot. But apparently the owner of the club who booked me said, You have to bring 10 friends next time and next time. So I didn’t wanna have to, like, burden people with asking them to continue to watch me and follow May. And I realized very quickly that my humor was very regional, like I understood, you know, New York comedy specific. But it’s much started to be able to be funny and all the markets and how good the major comics are about sort of national humor, right? I enjoy it. I recently just improv class because I like doing those kinds of things. I think it makes you fresh and it challenges you.

[00:04:14.57] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, I’ve done stand up comedy and improv. I took a bunch of improv classes that the Upright Citizens Brigade and I took some stand up comedy classes with this Manhattan comedy school. Um, I’ve played Gotham, but only, you know, like you. It sounds like I do the new talent shows where Oh, you got a visitor there. Okay. Um, do talent shows? Yeah. We bring hers. Brings you gotta bring 10 people or 12 people or 15 people or something in orderto in orderto Get your stage time. Yeah, but I agree improv especially. You know, it’s very good for speaking confidence. I loved it. I think it helps me a lot. I like those. Did you did you try regional comedy outside New York? Is that how you?

[00:04:19.04] spk_2:
No. But we discovered that afford median income. Who’s been doing it for 15 years? And he’s told us to the story how he lived in his pinto, basically and traveled from city to city, Pittsburgh, all the small markets and when market his his bits than his time and then he’d go to the next city in the next city. I was like, I’m not gonna do that.

[00:05:19.94] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s hard to. It’s hard to make money at stand up comedy very few people to, and it’s true. You know, I’ve never even thought of it, cause I the only place I’ve ever done stand up is in New York City. I’ve never wanted to be regional or national, but absolutely true. I don’t I’m not sure people would get me outside outside the clothes. Maybe Westchester that would be about as far. Um, right. So So let’s talk about real estate. And, you know, our listeners are small and mid sized nonprofits. Um, now you you know, the New York City New your New York City market Are you able to generalize like to the t broader than that when we talk about

[00:05:22.42] spk_2:
course. Definitely. I think the same. Planning things and considerations Air true for nonprofits nationally. And I on the international board with other tenant rep brokers internationally. So I always used to having conversations.

[00:05:38.41] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, um and so what are we seeing? Real estate wise around the pandemic. What’s the impact

[00:05:47.80] spk_2:
of certainly some things that you would think there are a lot more sub lets that are hitting the market transactions air down. In New York City of, for instance, it’s been down 40% in the first quarter. I think that it’s gonna be a very rich landlord reaching for us market more than you know, a tighter market where Layla is gonna be a little more difficult. So they’ll be more flexibility

[00:06:16.90] spk_1:
when we come out of this. And people are looking again for real estate. That’s encouraging. On the 10 inside that there’s gonna be that kind of flexibility. Like you said, you know, landlords reaching out, you think.

[00:06:23.87] spk_2:
And also I would say the other great. A huge amount of space that will be available will be retail. It’s gonna be a lot longer for retail to come back because of restaurants and all the other stores. That just a change of pattern of how people can access those spaces is gonna be very different.

[00:06:44.24] spk_1:
Um, when we you know, if any organization is thinking about changing real estate or just use, I guess maybe even just using their existing real estate when when we end up going back to offices. What other considerations there? How do you think things have changed in terms of office space usage?

[00:07:03.50] spk_2:
I think some of the considerations of the large brand tech companies, household names, air changing the amount of physical space per employee so typically was 175 square feet per employee. Now it’s going up to 300 square feet. Does that mean that they’ll be taking more space? I don’t think necessarily. I think people will be varying worked times and changing how many people can use space to a different time. They’ll also be technological impacts. For instance, people will be relying more on their handheld devices than that, necessarily having centralized computer systems, touch lists, entry to spaces, booking of conference rooms, anything where there’s high touch experiences. I think also just the way that people interact. There won’t be as many large group meetings, and the way that we work together will be very different. For a while, you

[00:08:06.40] spk_1:
mentioned booking conference rooms. What you mean? Like, if there’s a, uh, there’s booking a reservation system outside the room and lots of people touch it, is that

[00:08:16.84] spk_2:
it actually, or, you know, touchless check in. Sometimes people hand you and I have had to check in when you go into a space for security. So I think some of those things will be rethought and they’ll be more innovations along the way that we work together in a virtual way. And I think people’s ability to work at home and the office will be expanded. We’ve all adjusted, and we might have several waves of what’s gonna come ahead. We don’t really know.

[00:08:44.04] spk_1:
You know

[00:08:44.26] spk_2:
what I think we’re all anxious to get back to work and be together.

[00:08:47.85] spk_1:
You said, um, typical was 175 square feet per per employee. I don’t that’s that. That sounds like a lot, but is that the average is the average cubicle 175 square feet of space?

[00:09:26.94] spk_2:
Uh, roughly. I mean, there’s lots of different ways they call it bench seating. If you’ve seen lots of staff in small desks in front of them, that could be a slow is 100 per person or 75 square feet per person. I think it’s gonna be more generous than it was before, and we’d have large bullpen seating with lots of people in rows. I think that’s gonna look different. And also, I think they’ll be more spacing between desks and the physical nous of space changed.

[00:09:33.85] spk_1:
Yeah, I e. You know, you said, you think it’ll it could go as high as like 300 square feet per person, which is almost almost double the 1 75

[00:09:43.10] spk_3:

[00:09:50.74] spk_2:
not sure are non profit clients conduce that as as generously, Yeah, but that’s what I’m getting at right. I think it depends on what are non province use the space for. So that’s part of determining what the next steps for the non profits are. You do you have to have a large H Q like mothership. Do you need small offices? And in the various communities you’re serving, what will be the physical footprint of the space that you need to have some fulfill? Your mission, I think, is kind of part of the new sort of long term strategic planning into Cove it and in general, for non profits.

[00:12:18.54] spk_1:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice oven experienced partner You, JJ, Doom and Affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Now back to real estate with Jane Brody, and I see I fix that mistake with Jane Brody’s name. This audacity is so you can get so compulsive with it. It’s so alluring to take out every, um and on then. But if I if I take all those out, you’re gonna wonder. Who the hell am I listening to? Where’s tony? Sums and ours and his mistakes. So I’m not taking out everything. That is a slight imperfection. Some some things. You know what? Some things have got to stay the same. Every damn thing cannot change that. We’re accustomed to its It’s doing settling. I mean, there’s enough changes already to non profit radio. I’m keeping in the arms in the eyes and the okays. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I’m keeping those in, um, there. I’m keeping that in. Some things have just gotta remain the same. I am not perfect in the way I talk. And by now, after 487 shows, you don’t expect me to be so the hell with audacity, ease, intricacies and perfect ability. I’m not taking advantage of it all anyway. It’s time for a break. No. Anyway, here’s more back to real estate with Jane Brody. When should we start talking to our existing landlord about whether we’re going to stay or about renewing? How early should that conversation start?

[00:12:34.84] spk_2:
It’s really two pronged approach. A lot of people think Oh, I haven’t talked to my landlord and they go towards very close to the end of the least. That’s not really the best model because it leaves you kind of trapped, dealing directly with your Lambert. What the best approach is a year, two years, a year and 1/2 before your lease is expiring, kind of figuring out what you really need the space or and what the purpose and function of your space. You have the right spaces. It’s the right size, or you’re in the right market in the right community and then engaging a broker which has no cost to you. The commission’s air baked into the deal, and what you do is you have your broker find you at least two or three options that you like. So you go on on tours, understand the market, see what your space would cost across the street, in the same area you like to be in, you get a negotiated, non binding letter of intent that your broker can work with you on. And then once you have a deal in place, then you can go to your existing landlord. We call it kind of a stocking horse in the trade, which is here’s something that I could get if I have to move, can you beat it? can you match it? What can you do with this existing opportunity against what? Staying in place? Most people want to renew and stay in place. And your broker can also negotiate that with your landlord. So you wanna have sort of two tracks. The best is at least a year and 1/2 a year into place because it takes probably a month to find the right space. You negotiate the letters of intent, take you at least a month to do the lease, and then if you have a build out, that’s four or five months. So that’s a good amount of time. Plus, everybody has Stakeholders may have you the board involvement the various teams in your organization. Does this fit the needs of the organization, and then you have to kind of engage everyone in the process.

[00:14:56.64] spk_1:
So where you call a stalking horse, I will just call leverage, right? You want to have. You won’t have another deal in hand that you can present to your current landlord and say, Look, you know, I could move, but everybody knows you don’t really want to move right. I mean, it’s a big hassle moving, sure, but you want to have some leverage over the over the person? Absolutely. So I can see why you got to start, like a year and 1/2 in advance,

[00:15:19.11] spk_2:
or I just want to make one other point. Tony. Some people are afraid to challenge their landlord because my landlord’s so great. He’s been a donor to my organization, and I think, uh, I think sometimes nonprofits are intimidated by that, But I people very much treated as separation of church in ST and ST you make a donation to something you believe in and on the other part of the isle you can certainly negotiate a least one has nothing to do with the other.

[00:15:31.87] spk_1:
And you made the point that a broker is free to the tenant, right?

[00:16:13.13] spk_2:
Yes. Okay, that Brooklyn tony that that works from a from a Do you else to end point is commission is baked into the transaction, and it’s a very old schtum. So in every transaction, there’s a landlord broker, an attendant rap broker. If you don’t have a tenant rep broker, and basically you’re just handing the condition completely over to the landlord broker, and I like to kind of talk about in terms of the wars. Wouldn’t wanna have one lawyer kind of representing both sides of the equation. You can. So you look for somebody who understands your work in your mission and can act on your behalf and, well, looking at the same data. So that’s another thing people think. Well, let me hire Let me get three or four people running around for me, but it doesn’t really work that well because we all look a co star, which is a proprietary database that we all subscribed. Teoh.

[00:16:31.94] spk_1:
Okay, so everybody’s got access to the same listings. What? You said that in any community, that’s nation

[00:16:37.28] spk_2:
yet it’s national, its international. Okay,

[00:16:39.91] spk_1:
okay. All right, So now all right. So we know we should start, like, maybe two years, a year and 1/2 in advance of the expiration of our least. So now what do we need to be thinking about in terms of our new space Or, you know, our existing space?

[00:16:55.26] spk_2:
Well, one thing that I think is really important is a good match with right land board. So I have just a couple of examples that really kind of illustrate this one is this organization I worked with? They they, uh, took in donations for babies. 03 year olds. They would get strollers and books and clothing, toys, and people would come with you could imagine garbage bags full of treasures. And then they would come to the building full of all their stuff in their hands, cribs everything and come into the lobby and go up in the elevators and make the donation on. And then the clients would come with not themselves or just their baby. They would bring five or six people because, you know, day care is a huge challenge for low income families. So a particular Landler didn’t like all that additional foot traffic,

[00:17:47.69] spk_1:
right? Probably bags of stuff being hold onto the elevator to Right?

[00:19:07.24] spk_2:
Right. So you’re crowding my other tenants. You’re crowding my elevator, you’re holding things up. So I was able to find them a landlord that adores what they do. They actually make donations, they help them with all kinds of support. And I recently ran into the landlord at an event, and they’re like Jane finding more tenants like this. We love what they dio and I have another case where I worked with this organization called Chess in the Schools. Wonderful organization had been in the building 17 years, and they had this, like, huge 12,000 foot space that was shaped like a pizza pot. I mean, how somebody designed this thing with slices as the various zones, but it was really expensive rent for them. They had downsized, but they had this, like, really strange requirement that once a week, 80 young people high school kids came to play chest, so they needed a certain kind of space. The landlord worked so hard to keep them in the building. He he helped me find the space within the building that was 4500 feet, renovated the space for them. And then there was no lag way leaving their old space and moving out of two years earlier their existing lease and gave them a brand new lease going 10 years, four. Very unusual. So if you get lucky with those kind of connections, so I always try to find landlords that are the right match for clients, I think it makes a big difference,

[00:19:28.74] spk_1:
and you have to be upfront about what your work is so if there are gonna be families coming through, You know, with kids, you know, the class A space landlord, you know, may not want that because they don’t want Children in the lobbies or if it’s gonna be folks with disabilities. And you know, some landlords may not be at all sensitive to that, and others may be completely embracing of that. So yes, true, we’ll be upfront about what kind of traffic you’re gonna create if it’s not strictly an office environment.

[00:20:13.39] spk_2:
And that’s really educating your broker to really understand your organization. And I kind of think of it as kind of putting that mission on my back and trying to, like, think about what that executive director or board member needs. I’m working with an adoption agency right now and one of the things that was really important to them. And I really thought a lot about this when I when I speak about this particular client, is they have birth mothers who are, you know, young women. Sometimes there are, you know, compromise situations. They’re kind of a lot of anxiety around giving your baby up for adoption and going to like a mainstream building where you’ve got turnstiles. Intense security screenings would be could be intimidating. So finding them a sort of quieter block building where they could walk in themselves, created in the best way. And also there’s confidentiality issues. There’s programming. So how can it be very front facing an appropriate for that particular client and meets the needs of the organization?

[00:21:14.64] spk_1:
Okay, yeah, I see. Just maybe just even giving their name at a security desk is, I don’t know, intimidating or off putting to a clientele like that

[00:22:20.64] spk_2:
or shelling a driver’s license or so really kind of matching what you’re trying to accomplish in this space. And I also think understanding what you’re using the space for Israeli import, you know? Are you doing classrooms or you’re doing training? Are you doing touchdowns? Space for your feet fieldworkers? I had one particular client who ah, was an arts organization. After School Arts Organization. It was created in the seventies when all the arts organizations were taken. All the art teachers were taken out of the school systems, so these two former teachers started organization and they hire freelance artists to come into schools, you know, lovely idea. Filling a need and then the schools would contract for these part time workers. This and they kind of grew the organization unwto through little tiny apartments that they were renting in the community in the city. So this executive director said, let me create one central place for the organization, a place where the artist can come, receive their materials, have training, have collaboration. And it’s really changed the environment of the organization and the way that the employees and the artist kind of bond on having a ton, equal footing and a connection in a place to be together.

[00:22:44.04] spk_1:
All right, Jane, um, so let’s talk about some common mistakes that you see that non profits, you know, can hopefully avoid,

[00:23:27.94] spk_2:
I would say typically timing, not having enough period of time to think about your space. So we talked about a year and 1/2 or two years. I’ve had people call May I’ve got a month left to my least. What should I dio? Okay, that’s certainly not doesn’t put you in the driver’s seat, right? Making sure that you have all the stakeholders involved in the process. The development people, your board, your your staff, understanding what you’re trying to accomplish in your space search being isolated and just working through the operations people. That’s really important. Another important part is that you could afford the space and that it fits with your budget. I mean, certainly Cove. It has been a real lesson and understanding the financial impact of things like rent to those air key mistakes.

[00:23:44.91] spk_1:
These mistakes, we’re gonna be reduced because we’re raising people’s consciousness about about them. All right, Um, all right, so I mean, I love it. You hit this a couple times, but you said that you can’t stress enough the importance of starting early. So you you have time. It’s not a crisis. You’re not trying to find space and negotiate a deal in three or four months, which may not even be doable,

[00:25:35.69] spk_2:
I think also, I want to mention just another example. I worked with a food pantry early on, and it was really interesting this particular organization, great organization, New York Common Pantry. And they had received a grant to help senior citizens receive food distribution through senior citizen centers. So it was a new program. They were gonna have vans leaving the central location going out to these new communities and providing food. So when we started looking for space and understanding what they could do, you started learning a lot about crazy things. Like if you get all this food and then your new distributed the weight of the food and the canned goods and all the foods that will be distributed could be really important on the weight of a building, so being in a second floor wouldn’t work. So we ended up being in a ground floor small warehouse, and then they had some other programs. Programmatic needs counseling. Nutrition program really split how they ended up solving the real estate. We had office in one location and food distribution in the vans and a different area. So sometimes the way that you solve the program programmatic needs can look different because of the the whole state weight breaks out. So it’s all pen of a learning experience some time

[00:25:42.44] spk_1:
and creative creative experience. All right. Jane Brody, she’s executive director and Vikas Partners. They’re at Vikas partners dot com. Jane. Thanks so much for being guest. Thanks for sharing.

[00:25:51.79] spk_2:
Thanks, tony. Be safe.

[00:27:57.30] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software their accounting product. Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You have a free 60 day trial on offer. It’s on the listening landing page. That’s the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now time for Tony’s Take two. Take a breath, take a breath. Relax. You need to take care of yourself, not just once. Try to do each day, sit with yourself and clear your head. Focus on your breath. Meditate, nap. Whatever is good for you. Be good to yourself in a healthy, soothing, calming, loving way. There’s so much shit going down, and so much is being asked of you That is strange and difficult. Take care of yourself. Do it each day. You deserve it. You need it. Please take care of yourself, and that is Tony’s. Take two. Now it’s time for racial equity. D I welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology conference. You know the conference had to be canceled, but you also know we are persevering virtually. We’re sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin for a free 60 day trial. My guess now is just in pen. He is a community engagement and equity manager at n 10. The host of 20 NTC. Justin, welcome.

[00:27:58.74] spk_4:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:28:00.60] spk_1:
It’s great to have you. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we’re able to work this out. Virtually thanks so much. Yes. No, you’re You’re well and safe ing in Portland, Oregon.

[00:28:25.54] spk_4:
You know, I am. It’s some, you know, we’re all living a very new reality, So it’s definitely something that, uh, was kind of new to me. I worked 2 to 3 days a week, um, from home. But now I’m doing it all day. Every day

[00:28:33.04] spk_1:
of misery. Were maybe six years. Hopefully not seven, but maybe five for six days. Um, so you had really interesting topic? Ah, critical. Critical announces you what worked for us. A critical reflection of intends racial equity rooted. D I work? Yeah, I think this is obviously your responsibility at and then as

[00:28:50.28] spk_4:
that is, Okay,

[00:29:28.14] spk_1:
um and I’m still, you know, this D I is I’m 58 years old, so I didn’t grow up with this. Yeah, I’ve been thinking about it, talking about it, struggling with it for and, you know, maybe not long enough, but three for 3 to 5 years, I’d say some ran. Um, so I have a pretty basic question, but I want to get it off my chest. What off, Mike? I wanted I want to get it out. Why? Why do you have to say racial equity rooted D I work, right? I would think that that’s just subsumed in D I

[00:31:10.70] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, I think there’s a lot of things, you know, I wanna give space because we only have 25 minutes. I could definitely talk for 25 minutes just specifically about this. However, I do think because we center all of our, um, racial our excuse me, our d I work with rooted in racial equity. It’s important to us because I think at the end of the day, there are a lot of systemic and oppressive things that have happened not only in this country, but also, um, within the nonprofit sector that really do effect people of color first. So, for example, there’s this idea of intersectionality, which does happen and is a thing. But also, like, you know, you can be a, um, a white woman who is just and still get a lot more privilege than a black woman who was disabled. So, um, so that’s just a just a bit of it all, too. And that’s why we center it with racial equity to explicit. Absolutely, Absolutely. And that’s not to say that it’s a binary where we are saying that racial equity above everything else and we’re not we’re gonna brush everything else off the table. There are other identities that, um, people identify with that air just is important. And, um, they they have their own, you know, marginalization within their own communities to, and those need to be honored as well to and considered. And, um, really makes in and made sure that they’re being prioritized during certain circumstances.

[00:31:47.94] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, well, you know, we we may end up going more than 25 minutes, because I Something’s according to meet it. What about this? This pandemic. How do you feel? Like this is highlighting. We’re gonna get there are. Actually two things I wanna ask you is exacerbating. Yeah, I want to start with almost over the highlight. How do you feel? Like this pandemic and the country and I’m focused on Let’s focus on the U. S. Yeah, uh, that has the reaction to it. They’re working from home. The we could talk about the s. My gosh, I could see how we usually go. 2125 minutes.

[00:31:52.27] spk_4:

[00:32:03.44] spk_1:
about the loan programs? Absolutely. Wherever you wanna go, How do you feel? Like the pandemic and the response to it have highlighted. Yeah, inequities.

[00:34:11.38] spk_4:
What a great question. Wow. So I can only speak from personal experience or just the identities that I bring to the table. So, um, I am I’m half black and I’m half Navajo. So my dad is black, and my mom is Navajo. And so, um, being that bi racial professional in the non non profit sector world, um, you know, as a black man and as a Navajo man as well, you know, you see these things and you have these very direct ties to the communities with which you navigate in and reside in the one thing that comes to mind is, um you know, all of my Navajo relatives. So I have a lot of member who relatives that are still on the rez on the New Mexico side. Um And so, um, one thing that’s really striking to me is that, you know, the last I mean, the numbers change every day, right? With these covert 19 cases. Um however, the last time I read it, um, it was, um per capita, the amount of cases after New York and after New Jersey, the next, um, the next amount of cases was the Navajo Nation under. Really? Yeah. And so that’s I mean, there’s their cases per capita, and I want to make sure that that portion Exactly. And so that’s really concerning because I have family on the rez. And also, um, it’s, um It kind of it speaks to the, um the years of historic, um, oppression And, um, you know, genocide that has happened with it within indigenous communities. Um, and how there has been, um, baked into, um, you know, communication and treaties and promises broken promises by the federal government. Why? This has kind of made, you know, this situation that we have now on the Navajo reservation. And I’m sure, um uh, among other tribes, something that is really, really pressing right now, there’s probably accounts everywhere. And so I just

[00:34:27.37] spk_1:
health care. Health care has been a serious negative problem. Serious problem on the indigenous peoples for generations, right? The health care on the reservations.

[00:36:01.23] spk_4:
And so it just ends up being something that, like, I hold near and dear to my heart because I think of all my family members that are on the rez and live on the Navajo Nation. Um and also just, you know, um, the the way in which, um, you know, the the federal government supports or doesn’t support the Navajo Nation, never being its own sovereign nation. And so I think there’s, um um this is really kind of, like, pushed everything to the forefront of what is wrong with the systems. And I think it also, you know, on the other side of things, you know, you see now as that this data is coming out, those who have passed away and died to come, Teoh, you know this illness, um, the majority of them are black people. And so that’s also concerning for me, Um, that, you know, I think that there is, um, something to be said for that. And I think, you know, that kind of also lends Teoh. There are people who aren’t able to, you know, work from home. They have to be out there to. And so I think it’s very interesting in a data point that, um as hopefully when all of this subsides will be able to look at and really sit through and figure out and find I mean, I would be willing to put money on, you know that. You know, people of color indigenous communities, black people and indigenous communities probably were disproportionately affected by this. This pandemic

[00:36:09.24] spk_1:
in terms of health care, unemployment, yes. Businesses closed, I

[00:36:35.13] spk_4:
write. And also systemic and systemic. You know, an institutionalized racism that has policies, practices that our priority not prioritizing them, or are looking over these communities to as well. If it goes past the health care and Maurin two systems as well, it’s not built for them. Um, because it wasn’t with them in mind. It was with white folks in line,

[00:38:25.22] spk_1:
right? Right. Okay. Yeah, we could We could certainly go hours on that. Yeah. Um, all right. I’m yeah, and I don’t And so I mentioned, you know, highlighting and exacerbating. I Yeah, I think when When the dust settles and we look at disparities in outcomes, we’re gonna find immigrants and indigenous folks disproportionately impacted in terms of, uh, well, yeah, the institutional racism that you’re you’re bringing out and just in terms of the more surface store things that that, you know, like health care and help get unemployment lost jobs. And I mean from I have a small business. And so I see the way those that loan program is, at least in these opening weeks of it or whether I should say we’re recording on according on Tuesday, April 21st and so far, the opening program the opening, uh, indications around the S B A. Programs are that, you know, big businesses air getting it, yes, and most likely predominantly wiped. Run. Yeah, and and small businesses that I think Congress intended it to help or are falling short. At least that’s yeah, that’s what’s happening in this first tranche of 250 billion. We’ll see what happens when there’s the absolutely next the next level, but I’m sure you’re right. You know, the because the system is rigged against and built in favor of Yeah,

[00:38:26.63] spk_4:
Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:28.16] spk_5:
yeah, yeah. All right.

[00:38:30.62] spk_3:

[00:38:32.02] spk_1:
so we’ve been 20 minutes already, and we haven’t even gotten to only about it away. About the time you gotta you gotta host that. I wanted to talk about the pandemic in these terms

[00:38:42.27] spk_4:
or yeah,

[00:39:16.89] spk_1:
I haven’t done anything, but also so thank you. Yeah, but don’t worry about the time that you got a lackluster host to deal with. It’s my my shortcoming. Um all right, let’s talk some. Let’s talk about in 10. Yeah. Um What? Ah, well, all right. Before we get into the details of in 10 how do you how? Open someone start this conversation in their own organization? Yeah, I feel like it’s systemically institutionally. Wait, Run. Well, that would be out. They wouldn’t feel it. That would be obvious. But wait, wait, wait. Policies. Yeah. Um, how did they kick off this conversation?

[00:39:23.82] spk_4:
You know, tony, that’s a really great question, too. And there’s a variety of ways to bring it up. Teoh, I just got done reading a really good book. Actually, that Amy shared with me. Um, about how Teoh Stopgap

[00:39:38.86] spk_1:
award and simple words are social media and technology contributor here on non profit radio. Okay, just for the for the 45 people out of the 13,000 who may not know who any simple

[00:42:00.09] spk_4:
Yes, She gave me a book about institutionalized racism and institutionalized bias on how that manifests itself in the workplace and more importantly, what you can do about it. So it’s one thing toe like, recognize it and be like, This is wrong. And this is happening. Another thing to start, um, to start bringing it up within your organization is at the root of your question is you know, what can you do? And there’s a variety of things that you do. I think the first thing that comes to mind, um, that I read in this book was the book. It’s called Recognizing Institutional bias. Um, I may have to, like, follow back up with you. I know it’s something like that, but I breathe through it, um, so I’ll I’ll give you the title of it later. Um, but she um But this book talks about, you know, it’s one thing. Excuse me to go about it as an individual, but it is. I mean, it’s kind of like one of those things where safety in numbers and so being able tohave an ally or someone within the organization that you can also push this work or were, too. So it means asking some hard questions, and it means asking some hard questions of yourself as well to. And I think that’s the key point. Um, as well is realizing that, you know, we all have implicit, um, biases that we have in our head. Um, you know, when we think of cats, we think of cats, as you know, very. You know, Castile. They kind of take care of themselves. Some cats aren’t like that, though, you know, And so I think going into it, we have to really check those ideas about certain people, people from communities that have been informed, those implicit biases. We have to make sure that we’re good with ourselves or not even that we’re good with them and that we’ve reconciled them but that were aware of. So I think that was a really big take away point for me. Um, you know I’m 1/2 black man. I’m a Navajo man. Um, I have implicit bias, you know, everyone does. And so I think being able to understand that before pushing this work is really key to this. You have to really kind of strip yourself bare and understand that, um in order to push this work forward, you’re going to have to do some self work as well.

[00:42:17.87] spk_1:
Implicit biases. Is that not the same as stereotypes?

[00:42:20.30] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Some people call stereotypes. Yeah,

[00:42:24.77] spk_1:
you gotta You gotta be conscious of your own stereotypes.

[00:42:58.50] spk_4:
Exactly. We don’t politicize. Yeah. And sometimes those stereotypes are very obvious to you. You you think about them. But also, there are some that are very deep within your subconscious that come out without knowing, too. And so then it’s one of those things where you start. You have to be reflective and think, Gosh, where is this coming from? Where is the stock coming from? And where is this belief coming from? And really dig down deep into it. Um, I think another thing to that, um, when you push this type of work forward or are start to prioritize this work you have to think about you and I were talking about this earlier is, you know, the climate of the organization. Um And where in what? In the environment of the organization, some organizations have their heels in the ground, and I have experienced organizations like that where their heels air in the ground and they’re like, we have a D I committee that meets once a month and that’s it. Check box checked. We’re done with it. We don’t have to do anymore work. We don’t have Teoh, you know, examine the policies and practices in the environment that we put forward with an organization. So that’s a non starter for a lot of people. And in those

[00:43:37.63] spk_1:
organisms, on top of that r R D I committee, it has black black people in it. Yeah, so we’ve We were an equitable organization. Exactly to blacks on our equity committee.

[00:46:01.08] spk_4:
Exactly. And so I think those are things that I have experienced those there is half organizations where, you know, that’s the thing we call tokenism within. Let I wouldn’t even say within the d I world. That’s just tokenism, period with in whatever world you want to live in. And so that’s That’s a tokenism thing. And sadly, I’ve fallen victim to that in my earlier years of, you know, when I was a young professional of, you know, really being eager and wanting to please white leadership, Um, and realizing that I wasn’t pushing forward d I work. I was not contributing to it, but I was a victim of it. Um, and it was a system much larger than the the actual work that I was putting forward, and it was really sad, and I had to remove myself from those situations and those token izing situations. There was once a month d I meetings where I was that the token eyes per person of color that was having to bear my soul about some very, very deep and emotional topics. And so I think a lot of times, you know, you have to as a person who’s pushing this forward specifically, and I’m you know, I say this directly to people of color and organizations and non profit organizations who are the one to, you know, third person of color in the organization. I mean that that’s a big, big hill to climb to, and it’s not insurmountable. But what I will say is, you know, you have to be able to check in with yourself as a person of color and as a, um, as a professional of color, Um, be a black being Beit, indigenous, being Asian, um, agent. And so I just think that you have to check in with that because and be very hyper vigilant and aware that, um, some folks may want to token eyes you in a way and being ableto have, um, practices and things in your back pocket, too. Disrupt knows those policies and procedures and practices and then either move forward or remove yourself from the situation.

[00:46:09.88] spk_1:
Checking in with yourself means, like the official question. Is this even worth doing at this organization?

[00:46:11.41] spk_4:
Right. And maybe

[00:46:12.44] spk_1:
Do I have any ally or there are other potential allies? Okay, go to potential allies, and they turned out not to be allies. Is it even worth doing in this organization like you say, you remove yourself, Go elsewhere?

[00:47:29.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it because. And that’s really sad, too, because I think a lot of us in the nonprofit world are, um, you know, we are so passionate about the work that we dio We wanna, you know, we kind of pride ourselves. And I did this for a very long time when I worked in use development. You pride yourself on the number of hours that you work. You pride yourself on working overtime. You pride yourself on for the bare minimum, you do that. And then you have larger organizations that are typically white Run. That’s hold you hostage to that belief. And that’s really and that was I mean, I heard that maybe two or three years ago, someone said it much more beautifully than I just did. But on I wish I get credit them, but I forget who it was, but it really is those, I mean, and that’s a very big systemic, um, problem within the nonprofit world is that, you know, a lot of times white leadership will hold those those middle level, middle level, direct service middle management folks. Um, be it you know, people of color or not to their own jobs. To that to that own passion. I

[00:48:03.03] spk_1:
thought you loved our work. Exactly. We asked you when you came here three years ago. What moved without the work and, you know, using that work against them in some fashion time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help getting your message through. It is possible to be heard even through the Corona virus cacophony. They know exactly what to do to make it happen. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for racial equity, D I? In fact, this runs long because it’s a good conversation with Tristan that I did not want to stop. The total show is roughly 75 minutes,

[00:48:15.97] spk_4:
and it’s like the byline of you know, non profit works. Sometimes, sadly, is like we’re not in this for the paycheck, you know,

[00:48:23.25] spk_1:
Passion, passion, shaming.

[00:50:25.86] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so I mean, and so when you put you take that in and of itself, within the nonprofit world, and then you layer on a racial inequity that’s like also, you know, people are stuck folks of color. Black folks are stuck with it between a rock and a hard place within their job. They want to make money toe like live to pay their bills. They want to have a job to do those things. Yet they’re stuck in an organization that is holding them hostage to the work that they’re doing, and so that that’s something that I think is I went off on a tangent. But I also think that you have to be very aware is this Is this organization ready for this? Is this organization really about this work? Because it’s gonna strip a lot of things bare for the organization that they may not like, you know, And that made that push against that culture dominate that white culture, dominant belief and systems that have built the organization toe what it is today. So, for example, it means, you know, how are we working? Are we working every single meeting toe have some sort of end results? Um, you know where we come to a conclusion at the end of every meeting? That’s white, dominant culture in and of itself. Sometimes we have meetings that don’t have a big or clear and result, and we need to be okay with that. Um and so I think about that. And I think about my past, you know, roles that I have held in use development and how many times I’ve been in a meeting where it’s like we have to get X and Y and Z done by the time. But in two hours we have to pound out a budget in two hours on DSO. I think being able to work, and I’m not saying that like and 10 is one of those, you know, shining places on the hill. But I love it here because Amy gives us the space and latitude to sometimes not have toe have meetings that maybe we didn’t come to a clear conclusion or that there’s not an expectation that we have a solid, you know, um, a solid solution that we come out of

[00:50:31.72] spk_1:
their outcome by end of me and meetings or just a microcosm of the total work, that because the work is constantly a journey absolutist repeatedly, you know, it’s not done at the end of a year or 18 months. And, you know, like you were saying different example though, you know, check, we’ve done our We’ve done our diversity work

[00:50:50.11] spk_4:
right right

[00:51:06.97] spk_1:
now. Now, we just banned the committee or the committee Lance to be six months every six months or something like that. Yes, the meeting is just a microcosm of the of the overall structure and progress and journey you say in the description of the program, then 10 journey. It’s never It’s not really never completed.

[00:51:15.12] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s never done. And it definitely doesn’t live solely with me. And I think this is the one thing that I particularly like, Um, in this this role that I’m in within 10 and working so closely with Amy with D I work is the idea that she and I are a team, um, working towards this, I think a lot of times and organizations, they token eyes, a person of color, and they’re like, Oh, you’re the equity person. You’re the equity director. You’re the X, y and Z, which is fine. It’s great. I’m all for that. But a lot of times there are situations where or organizations that put it all on that person. And they’re like

[00:51:52.79] spk_1:
the person has no with no authority, exact lots of accountability, but no authority,

[00:53:04.39] spk_4:
right? And so what I really like and appreciate is that Amy pushes me, and I pushed back on things that we’re working towards and, um You know, I say I pushed back, but also she and Ira will learn personality anyway, So a lot of times, um, she’ll peek around the corner from our office when we when we worked in offices. Um, you know, and be like I was thinking something like, Oh, my gosh, I was just thinking that. So I think it also helps be specifically with her. And I really are, um our relationship is that she and I are just very similar. Um, and, um, I think that does help. But I also appreciate her as a leader being able Teoh ask questions and prioritized racial equity not only when she’s thinking about D I stuff, but when she’s thinking about the budget. When she’s thinking about NTC when she’s thinking about, um, you know, all of our I t endeavours, all of our community pieces. Um, I appreciate that because that says to me as a person of color and more importantly, a someone who’s, um, you know, a ah person who’s working for is that Oh, this person’s in it for riel. Yeah, Amy talks. The talk walks the walk, and again, it’s not toe like, you know, game points with a Me, too. Because for that you

[00:53:18.07] spk_2:
were you making

[00:53:18.66] spk_1:
the point of the importance of leadership that has to be leadership support by in, you know, whatever it’s called or else you are, Well, not the person committee or the entire endeavor is just gonna be, you know, without without teeth,

[00:54:48.24] spk_4:
right? Yeah. And so that’s what I appreciate her as a leader, even though I’m the person that has the role that pushes it forward and stewards that she’s right there with me helping me and asking those questions on an executive level and on a board level two and prioritizing those questions. And so that’s something that I really appreciate as an employee, but also separately from that, like as a person of color, as an indigenous man, as a black man. I appreciate those things, Um, and so it’s it’s kind of 11 of those situations where, you know, talk is cheap, you know? And, um, you know, she walks the walk, and I really appreciate that. I’ve, you know, worked with a lot of white leadership in past organizations that I worked in, where they talked to talk. They love a good. You know, feel good session about D I stroking their own egos and all the things. But when it comes, it comes down to it when there are policies that they’re pushing forward and meetings that are directly, you know, working against racial equity, that’s not it, you know? And so those are examples that I think of where I’m like. Gosh, I wish I would have spoken up. Um, but but, you know, within 10 I don’t feel that. And that’s something that I I’m gonna hold on to it and hold onto it tight, because I know that this is a good thing. And I’m really, um, you know, glad and blessed to work on a place that prioritizes those things.

[00:55:13.17] spk_1:
Can you tell a story of an example of something that on its surface is not inequitable by? Maybe you pointed it out, Or if not, use something. It became obvious that it is inequitable. Yeah, you brought it to the organization and a chain jumping

[00:57:48.23] spk_4:
right. So I’ll give an example, and it doesn’t really point out a specific person, but it points out, Is Berries easy thing that no one had really found it within the organization within our organization. I know a lot of people think, Oh, wow. It’s like this multi tiered, you know, organization with lots of people. There’s only 15 of us, so, I mean, the way we work is very collaborative anyway. And so, um, once we have a job, sport where folks immunity are able to post open positions on the community s so a lot of times it’s organizations that will want to post a open position that they have on for the longest time, we didn’t, um we as an organization didn’t have, um, a requirement for salary. So when people when there was a salary field for organizations to put in, um, you know what? How much this person was going toe radio? Absolutely. They leave a blank, right? D o e dependent upon experience. Um, and if you look at that, too, seems pretty like, oh, standard. We see it all the time with, like, you know, you know, we go on linked and we go on any sort of jobs board site. Yeah, They probably don’t, you know, put the salary, and a lot of times it’s dio we and, um I I myself was like I don’t see like why, you know, there’s like an issue with that, too. Until it was pointed out that, like, you know, this was This is a practice that is steeped in, um, whiteness and its steeped in patriarchal, the patriarchy. And so why do Why do organisations not do that? I don’t know. I can’t say that for each and every other word Is that what I can say is that when organizations don’t put a salary for a job or put d o e um, that disproportionately effects women and people of color. Um, because it contributes Teoh. And there have been studies that show that when it’s when there’s no salary, it discourages people of color. Don’t feel like they are, um, you know, I don’t want to speak for for all people of color, but there have been studies that have shown that, you know, it contributes to that pay gap. That gender pay gap

[00:57:59.03] spk_1:
okay, enables that’s what I thought. It enables disparities in pay

[00:58:00.60] spk_4:
exactly and so

[00:58:02.32] spk_1:
committed because you don’t have to commit in writing exact ranges 1 25 to

[00:58:57.62] spk_4:
one solidity on their maybe organizations out there that are like, Oh, this is a black woman that’s applying for this job. I’m going toe put my I’m gonna offer this job to this person on the lower end of that range, and that’s not fair, Um or, you know, because I didn’t put post my salary. I’m gonna lowball this this this job offer and that’s not fair as well to we want organizations that are going to put or post positions or job roles on our website to be up front with everything, too. We want to make sure that our community members have all the information that they have to make an informed decision about their future job. Future A future benefits so they can make the most educated decision on whether they want to join this organization or not. Do you

[00:59:02.44] spk_1:
know what’s what’s required for

[00:59:12.82] spk_4:
that salary? Yes, so right now it is required. That’s the only thing it so you can’t post a job of job opening without having a salary.

[00:59:15.53] spk_1:
OK, so array is arranged, Arranges acceptable,

[00:59:18.46] spk_4:
I believe, arranges acceptable. I

[00:59:42.21] spk_1:
think that’s okay that someone is coming being offered at the lower end of that range, and they feel their experience marriage something higher? Um, then they can brother on conclusion that this may very well be racial or gender based or some other some other classifications based beyond their experience. You could draw that. You can draw that conclusion for yourself. If you’re being offered the low end of that salary. Radio

[00:59:50.07] spk_4:
have some very badly for that with the rains that that was going, going it, Teoh.

[00:59:53.03] spk_1:
Otherwise, your you’ve got no information whatsoever.

[00:59:55.44] spk_4:
Absolutely. And so you’re like I don’t know what. And so a lot of times there’s just weird tactic that people do. It’s like, What do you think you should be paid? And it’s like, you know, don’t turn that on its head. You know exactly what this job is worth. Please put it out there so everyone is aware.

[01:00:12.08] spk_1:
Okay, My own conclusion,

[01:00:57.91] spk_4:
though, anyway, so we require that now, and that’s something that we all came together and talked about. I mean, I can’t say who I can’t remember who, like specifically brought it up as something a za point. But it was such an easy fix. Such an easy fix. And, you know, I’ve been you know, I keep on talking about past organizations I’ve been with, but, um, I’ve been in organizations where it’s like an easy fix, but it took three months to implement. It took a meeting une email thread, you know, Ah, heart to heart meeting about how this was. You know, sometimes if it’s easy just implemented, and this was one of those things that you know, start to finish, maybe took ah, week a week and 1/2 to get it all running a

[01:01:01.53] spk_1:
programming is all of a sudden it’s a required field when it wasn’t required before.

[01:01:05.85] spk_4:
I think things are red

[01:01:06.96] spk_1:
asterisk and has to be programmed in the back end that you can’t submit your form without that field being

[01:01:23.71] spk_4:
feel that there’s a there’s low hanging fruit that sometimes exists in an organization that no one’s really sat and looked at and been like, Why are we doing this? How can we do this differently? That’s in a more equitable way in an equitable, equitable, more former fashion. And I think you know, I also say that, you know, I bring up these this anecdotes just because, you know, I mean, there are a lot of other things that we’ve done that. Have? Really?

[01:01:39.11] spk_1:
Yeah. That’s a That’s a great one.

[01:01:40.66] spk_4:
Because lately that

[01:02:19.54] spk_1:
innocuous on its face, it’s completely innocuous. Leave it blank if you want. Your Blanco are based on experience. It sounds perfectly. We’re doing that that way for generations. Based on your experience, you’ll get big. But now it’s locked in. You know what? We’re being offered a salary at the low end, and you can draw your own conclusion that why that might be exactly okay and no longer enabling. All right, Um, that’s a great story. Yeah, Um I mean, yeah, there’s so much we can talk about. Yeah. You mentioned in the description how racism manifests differently. A different levels of an organization.

[01:02:23.60] spk_7:

[01:02:24.50] spk_1:
First, a little bit.

[01:03:03.42] spk_4:
Yeah. So great question. I have, um, the ah, you know, opportunity and the privilege to serve on a, um A It’s an advisory. It’s the Committee on Racial on Racial Equity for, um, the it’s called Organ Metro. So it’s Thea Thea area local regional government that it’s, I believe, spans three, if not four counties in the Portland Metro area. So it’s a governing govern form of government that overlooks all four of us

[01:03:06.10] spk_1:
have to show off that I know Portland is in Multnomah County.

[01:03:09.04] spk_4:
Yes, I have to show. I

[01:03:10.54] spk_1:
just have to marry. Let’s have to show that off. That completely

[01:07:16.58] spk_4:
how I, um seven. It’s very much like a, uh it’s very much like a, um you know, council, where there’s council members that represent each district. And there’s also a c 00 that runs the entire organisation and government. Um, So, um, I sit on a, um on a committee that is tasked with making sure that racial equity is something that that governing body prioritizes and also is taking into consideration when it’s pushing or advocating for anything. So all that to say is that we had an opportunity Teoh to touch base with some leaders, potential leaders within this, this governing body. And, um, I think one of the questions that came to the top and that I asked you because it kind of goes back to your question of like, um, racial inequity manifests itself in very different ways on. And so if you’re a you know, a CEO of an organization, um and you’re like, yes, I’m about d I work. I live in. I breathe it yada yada. I do all of it on and I’m really passionate about it. Yet you’re a white person, and then you have to, you know, foreign partnerships with other area organizations, and they’re all white as well to what happens when you get into a room or you’re having to have big, you know, decision making conversations and everyone and there is white. Um, and, um and people in there are saying things that aren’t racially equitable. Um, and you’re sitting there in your belief that I believe I believe d I work. I know that it’s there, but the gravity of all these other people agreeing with this false, you know, or agreeing with this, you know, racially an equitable belief. You’re gonna have to push against that in that scary right to go against the grain of like, the larger group on. And so I I ask that because you know, our I just I bring that up because I think the phrase that comes most to mind to me is someone said it to me and I forget why read Reddit? Orde said it. But it’s always stuck with me as you move up within an organization, racial inequity on racism becomes more sophisticated, so it’s much, much easier to detect. Unlike a direct service, rubber hits the road level as you get to that C suite level. You know of an organization, it becomes more nuanced. It becomes mawr about tokenism. It becomes more about how you’re playing folks of color against each other or not even talking about it at all. Um, so I think that’s something that I’ve, you know, experienced in scene, you know, on a direct service level. When I first started right out of college, you know, when I was working for direct service, the the direct service staff of Color, the black folks, we’re always the ones who got, you know, assigned to jobs or assigned the locations that were less than favorable. And so, um, you know, it’s pretty straightforward. And then, you know, as we moved up within the organization, we realized that there was a token izing thing going on at the middle middle management level. And so, you know, I think that’s just one thing that it manifest in in very different ways, you know, in different organizations, but also across different levels To one level of, you know, racism may look, you know, one middle level of racism may look completely different at one organization that it doesn’t the other two. And so that’s why it’s, like a very sinister thing. Um, Teoh to be able to, you know, figure out for an organization.

[01:07:39.98] spk_1:
Um, let’s see, where can we go and sort of wrap up? Um, What you tell me you want? Oh, let’s bring it back down toe back to in 10. Because they were supposed to have been, but I let I wandered. Um um, deliberately So what do you want? What you want to share about? Sort of in closing in about intense journey, The work, the work that remains

[01:09:03.37] spk_4:
Yeah. Go. Absolutely. I love that. You said the work that remains cause there’s always work that remains. I don’t want anyone. I certainly don’t want to put on any, um, you know, false pretenses that we are. We’re there as an organization. We have arrived. We’re not. We have There’s always work that needs to. That has remained. That is remaining. And so I think that’s where I would start is that we have we’re on our own journey. We are, um, you know, moving forward intentionally and with respect to make sure that we are covering all of our departments and making sure that, you know, everyone is a steward of this d I work and making sure that it permeates every corner of our our organization. So that’s where I would start. I think you know, if folks are out there that are wanting to or your I mean, I specifically I speak Teoh, um, you know, CEOs, executive directors of organizations that are white. Um, this is the best time to push this forward. And it’s going Teoh not be easy. That’s

[01:09:10.83] spk_1:
what he said is the best time.

[01:12:27.75] spk_4:
It’s the best time because, you know, this is a time where people are, you know, there are country is and I don’t want to get you know too far into the political part of things. But like, you know, there’s a lot going on in our country to and, um, non profits are, you know, specifically smaller grassroots roots nonprofits are, um, you know, suffering A lot of times, a smaller grassroots non profits were run by people of color, so you know, I think in the spirit of non profit, it’s incumbent upon, you know, leadership to make sure that they’re helping. Not only there constituents, their employees, but also other nonprofits. So what does that mean for those CEOs or executive directors? This is the time, you know. And again I say that not in like, ooh, the stars have aligned these air that this is the time every time is a good time, You know what I mean? There’s no bad time to do this. This had this work has to be done. Um and so I would say that, you know, it’s it’s something that will pay off for years to come to. You’re going tohave employees when you start to prioritize, you know, d I work and not only within, like the D I department, but also just d. I work across your organization across departments and start to look critically how you can change and morph and transform into. I’m an anti racist organisation. You’re going to realize that a Not only are you a happier person be your employees are happy to be there and happy to do work, because inherently, when you a drew racial inequity. You’re addressing a lot of other inequities as well. You’re addressing, you know, gender inequity. You’re addressing LGBT Q. I A plus in equity as well. Those things will come in that makes employees happier. And what does that do that starts informing how you interact with your employees? Not only its not only informs it, but it starts to shape the things that you hold near and dear, both individually and as an organization, and your employees and staff will see that they will see that and they will want to stay. And that Matt effects. You know, if for those data folks out there, you know, staff retention, you have folks that are going to stay for the long haul because they believe in the work that you dio and what happens, you know. I mean, a lot of people think, you know, in in organizations or in business, you know, the customer is always right. Customer’s always right customer first, you know, or your that your communities that you’re serving our first and yes, that’s right. And there’s a grain of truth in that. However, you can’t serve your customers or your um, your the communities in which you’re serving or living in. If your employees aren’t served first and aren’t being prioritized, it’s kind of like, ah, flip of mindset that you have to dio So that would be my encouragement. And that would be my, um my you know, last piece that I would end on Is that like, you know, this is the time to do it, you know, because you know it. At the end of the day, it helps serve your organization to make sure organization stronger, and it makes your employees stronger. And it makes the relationships that you have with your employees stronger. Likewise that didn’t that, then goes into your, you know, direct service groups. You know, your communities that you’re living within. It makes your connection in your relationships more sincere and more bonded.

[01:12:51.55] spk_1:
Tristin pen, community engagement and Equity manager at N 10 s Justin, Thanks so much.

[01:12:58.14] spk_4:
Thank you so much. I hope I made sense. Thank

[01:13:51.35] spk_1:
you very much. You made a lot of sense Last sense and thank you for being with non profit radio coverage of 20 ntc remember, were sponsored at the conference by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Martin for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us next week. Privacy. Best practices. I told you it was coming. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission turned hyphen. Two dot ceo.

[01:14:41.79] spk_0:
A creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff. I did the post production. How did I do? Let me know. Sam Liebowitz managed to stream show Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scots non next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for April 24, 2020: 5 Questions & Working Virtually

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[00:00:14.04] spk_2:
Hello and welcome

[00:02:14.31] spk_3:
to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with hydrogen itis if you made me sweat with the idea that you missed today’s show. Five questions Heather Yan does article is five questions to answer before you call a consultant, and she’ll help you avoid making a costly mistake. She’s founder of non profit IST and working Virtually. We talked through the issues encountered when managing remote staff. Technological, generational, emotional measurement, recruiting and retaining. Our panel is Heather Martin from Interfaith Family and Alice Hendricks with Jackson River that originally aired November 2nd 2018. Tony Take to Our Innovators Siri’s were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. It’s a pleasure to welcome have a Ando to the show. She is founder of non profit ist an online resource that helps payer nonprofits with the right consultants. She’s also a lead consultant at Third Space Studio, where she helps with Strategic Planning Board and leadership development and going from Good to great. Previously she was director of development and communications with the North Carolina Conservation Network. Her consultancy is at third space studio dot com, and non profit ist is at non profit dot i s t Welcome to the show. Had the Endo thanks

[00:02:14.64] spk_5:
so much for having me. I’m glad to be here.

[00:02:21.29] spk_3:
Thank you. It’s a pleasure. Thank you. You’re welcome. You’re welcome. So you work. You are a consultant. Um, I can I guess, that people have made mistakes in,

[00:02:31.59] spk_4:
I don’t know, maybe made mistakes by hiring. You know, that’s not that’s not what I want to say. Scratch that. Scratch the the the opening clause of that sentence. But

[00:02:42.27] spk_3:
people can make mistakes in their consultant hiring. If they’re not thinking ahead.

[00:02:50.04] spk_5:
That’s absolutely right. Make really costly mistakes. And they can waste a lot of time, their time and consultant time by not really having your questions answered before they go into it.

[00:03:01.18] spk_4:
Okay. Have you been in a situation where you didn’t you felt that the organization had not thought through enough what they really wanted, and it it wasn’t the right time to hire you.

[00:03:33.12] spk_5:
Absolutely. What? What I see are a couple of different problems that are reflected in these questions Wound that I see all the time and others might see. This, too, is, but people come without a clear understanding of how much they have to budget for some kind of engagement with a consultant. So we’re talking about a project, and that project could be anywhere from five hours of my time to 25 hours of my time to 100 hours of my time, depending on how deep we want to go. And having a sense of budget is really helpful with the front end.

[00:03:51.37] spk_4:
That’s that’s something that I ask. I do plan to giving consultant and and before I do a proposal, I have Teoh. I have to have a budget range, at least not going to be a number, but I have to have an idea. So I know that the things we just spent the past hour talking about can be achieved with the budget that the organization has in mind?

[00:04:12.04] spk_5:
Absolutely, absolutely. And if people are getting multiple proposals for this kind of work, which often happens and I encourage, it’s really helpful to be able to compare apples to apples. So you’re not just comparing on costs because that’s often not the most important variable. You’re really comparing on approach on personality fit on culture fit on all of these other variables that are going to give you a much better outcome.

[00:04:49.80] spk_4:
Yeah, okay, very wise. All right, So you’ve been on both sides, give you you’ve been in a non profit, and as a consultant, you’ve been you’ve hired non. You’ve hired consultants when you were I

[00:04:52.08] spk_5:
have higher consultant. And certainly, over the past nine years of serving as a consultant, I have had many of these conversations about getting to the proposal or the contract phase.

[00:05:10.65] spk_4:
Well, I admire you putting this these thoughts down because I’ve been a consultant even longer, and I never you know, I do

[00:05:20.84] spk_3:
these things implicitly, but to say to organizations, these are the things you should have in place, or the These are the questions you should be asking internally before you get to

[00:05:22.27] spk_4:
the start. talking to the first consultant. I think that’s I think that’s valuable and helpful. So thank you for coming on. I’m glad you’re here to explain.

[00:05:30.87] spk_3:
So the first thing you want, you don’t You don’t want some vague plan like board development or strategic plan you want you need. You want something more than that?

[00:07:35.05] spk_5:
Yeah, the first question that I want you to answer is what the challenge you want to tackle. What’s the question you want answered? What’s the sticky thing that your organization has been having trouble with over the past few years? So there’s two ways that I see. Organizations often go when they talk to consultants that are not helpful. One is what you just mentioned, which is? They come with a very big desire for a strategic plan. And when you ask why, the answer might be well, because our old one ended last year, we need to do it again, which is somewhat helpful but really doesn’t tell you what’s driving this desire to have these conversations. And I think that a lot of time, these ideas that fundraising plans, marketing plans for development plans, they’re things that non profit leaders know they can ask or they know that they’re good things have. But they don’t give you much of a sense of what’s actually driving the the need for this or what kind of behind it. One of the questions keeping you up at night about this topic. One of the things you really want to tackle to this effort. So one of being too babe, The other thing I see a lot when organizations talked to me is that they are really, really specific. So they have not only figured out what the that they want a strategic plan. But they have figured out every single activity that’s gonna happen over the next six months to make that happen. So they have designed a whole process without the aid of somebody like me who does this a lot and can really bring some of that outside expertise so sometimes are also getting a little too specific and often times they’re not really addressing the right challenge. So getting clear about that challenge can help a co design something that would really address it.

[00:07:47.63] spk_4:
Yeah, okay, so two ends of the spectrum, either too vague or too specific in terms of precise tasks they want

[00:07:53.77] spk_3:
done. And they’re just hiring you to execute what they’ve developed. Yeah, I’ve never been in

[00:07:57.30] spk_4:
that situation. I’ve had the too vague, but ah, not that not to to speak

[00:07:58.72] spk_3:
well, I work in planned giving. So it’s such a black box. Unfortunately, it should not be a I’m constantly railing against that. It should not be a black box. It need not be a

[00:08:10.16] spk_4:
black box, but so I think people are not sure what activities to do in planned giving. But if it’s

[00:08:16.74] spk_5:
I think it shows up a lot in requests for proposals, which I’m actually writing an article now about how they’re the worst, and people should think about what else to do. But often in a request for proposals, it will be very, very detailed about the all of activities they want the consultant to undertake.

[00:08:35.49] spk_3:
Well, I I guess, yeah, depending how precise it is that you made man just having employees do it, you

[00:08:42.48] spk_5:

[00:08:48.19] spk_3:
you developed it internally. You may as well just have the person who helped develop it to carry it out. If you’re such experts in what the plan should be, why don’t you go ahead and do it.

[00:08:53.82] spk_5:

[00:08:54.41] spk_4:

[00:08:54.85] spk_5:
And you’re really not getting the staying for your buck of hiring an outside expert.

[00:08:59.47] spk_3:

[00:08:59.89] spk_5:
we really do understand the process of round a lot of these conversations and how to structure them. How to really engage people, how to help you make change and make that change.

[00:09:25.58] spk_4:
We’re gonna take our first break. Other. Um, we come out of this in about 30 seconds, or so I I want to dive into ah board development a little bit. Like what? What? What kind of specifics would you want to see their and then we’ll carry on with the rest of the questions. All right, so it’s time for this

[00:09:55.79] spk_3:
break wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit gets finished on time so that you get the advice oven experienced partner, eat each tomb, been a guest on the show, and the full firm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of nine nineties and audits under their belt wegner-C.P.As dot com. Now let’s go back to five questions. Okay, Heather, um, so instead of we want board development what? What would you like to see that. At what level would you like to see the The plan fleshed out.

[00:10:49.34] spk_5:
So what I would really love is for an executive director, Uh, maybe aboard. Care to call and say, you know, we’ve done some thinking about our board. Maybe we’ve even done a little bit of an assessment of our board and we figured out we have these couple of challenges. We’re really struggling with accountability around, following through on tax or we’ve done some training on fundraising, but the board still isn’t really engaged. And then we can have a conversation from there about Well, what have you tried? What do you think behind it? What might we try together to help the board shift in these particular ways? So the important pieces are that you’ve done some reflection about what the challenge might be and what’s really behind that.

[00:11:00.28] spk_4:

[00:11:14.54] spk_5:
interesting you bring out board development because that actually links into question number two, which is, does everybody agree that this is a challenge and that there’s some need for outside help? So if we’re talking about a board, the executive director might have a particular opinion. Does the board chair share that opinion and if they don’t both see the same challenges or even see a challenge with the board. Then again, you’re not setting up the consultancy for you’re not setting up this engagement for success.

[00:11:35.40] spk_4:
So does everybody agree about the challenge? Whether this even, like, what’s the source of the trouble? Is that Is that what you mean?

[00:12:07.66] spk_5:
Absolutely. So if you really if you as an executive director feel like the board really has trouble with accountability or they don’t understand their roles and responsibilities, does the board chair who is really the leader of the board have that same assessment? Would they agree? If I show up to do a training on roles and responsibilities, how is that going to be received by the board? Is everyone on the same page, or at least the leaders on the same page about what? That challenges?

[00:12:17.94] spk_4:
Okay, I see. Yeah, yeah. Um, so that so if it’s let’s let’s continue with the example that board development, um, you you want to know? Do you want to know that the full board has, uh, I don’t have formally approved it, but at least discussed the idea that you know we need some help here is you want to go to that? You want to know about the full board or really, just like the Executive committee or what?

[00:12:39.97] spk_5:
I think it depends on board culture. I would say more people buying it is always

[00:12:45.95] spk_4:

[00:12:46.73] spk_5:
So if there is a conversation among the full board about devoting two hours at our next meeting to this topic to bring in an outside expert to talk about this, that was the ideal that really sets me and any other convulsant up for success.

[00:13:12.88] spk_4:
And so I guess likewise. If there’s some kind of staff, um, I don’t know, uh, staff work that’s going to be done. Um, you’d want to know that the staff is, uh, has bought into the idea. It’s not just coming from the vice president or the CEO.

[00:13:24.71] spk_5:
Absolutely. If you want to develop a fundraising clan, is your development team brought into bought into the need to do this? Have they talked about what the challenges are? How whatever this fundraising plan is might help them move past those challenges. So it’s really the kind of idea of who are the key stakeholders and are they in agreement with the desire to have an outside expert come in? Are they in agreement about the challenge at hand?

[00:13:52.31] spk_4:
Okay, okay. Yes, the key stakeholders. Right. All right, all right. So, yeah, if you’re driving home the point that there’s gotta be gotta be conversations internally before we start talking to somebody externally, we got to know what our trouble is. And beyond that,

[00:14:01.89] spk_5:

[00:14:27.72] spk_4:
And the key people need to be invested in the process to solving the problem. Okay? Absolutely. Right now, I want todo let you know that I let you. I let you suddenly go from question 1 to 2 without my without my buy in. It’s okay. I’m, uh Let’s just just, uh, tread lightly as we go forward. Okay? Um, all

[00:14:30.63] spk_3:
right. So the next one is a timing. When when do you want the project?

[00:14:41.07] spk_5:
Absolutely. So this is really important, because often time, the timing really impact when a consultant is able to help or not. So if you want a board retreat next Saturday, I may not be able to help, or even next month, someone may be booked up if you already have really important date for that project on a calendar and a consultant isn’t isn’t available. You may have to move on to another person, or you may have to shift the timeline, if that’s really the right person.

[00:15:09.84] spk_4:

[00:15:47.65] spk_5:
there’s one question about a specific dates on the calendar. The other question is just what’s really driving the timeline for the organization? Do you need this to be done by a certain date? Because there’s a grant deadline? There’s turnover on your board. There’s something else externally driving it. So at the front end, really thinking through Where does this fit in? In terms of our schedules can be really helpful in figuring out in that first phone call is this person is this consultant a good fit and and what might need to be shifted to make them a good

[00:16:23.74] spk_4:
you know as well. There has to be some receptivity for the consultant to push back and say, You know, that’s not a That’s not a realistic timeline for the scope of the work that we’re talking about, you know, putting aside it’s, you know, a board retreat on a weekend or at a board meeting, but you no longer term engagement like for instance, planned giving. There’s not much we can do in planned giving in six months. I don’t I don’t consent Teoh. I don’t agree. Toe. Six month engagement’s got to be at least a year. So it’s got You have to be willing to hear that what we’ve just talked about can’t be done in the timeline that you defined.

[00:16:28.98] spk_5:
I’m so glad you brought that up. I

[00:16:30.81] spk_4:

[00:16:31.55] spk_5:
I would

[00:16:32.52] spk_4:

[00:16:32.91] spk_5:
90% of the folks I talked Teoh, uh, have a over ambitious timeline

[00:16:39.86] spk_4:

[00:17:27.44] spk_5:
And when we really start to dig into, uh, what are all the past but need to be accomplished, who were all the people that need be engaged? What are all the schedule that need to be managed? Often times we’re having that same conversation, and and I believe, as you probably do that particularly for these bigger processes where you’re really in terms of plan giving, building something new, doing a lot of research, having these important conversations, it just takes more time. And that’s important because it also means that it’s more likely to stick if you were having more conversations over more time. So when I do strategic planning I really like for that. Have a six or nine months time horizon that gives people enough time to really think through all the implications of that he changes were making gives the board and the staff opportunities to engage with each other in different ways. So, yes, pushing back on the timeline is really important to

[00:18:13.51] spk_4:
the strategic planning, I would think, uh, I mean, that’s, uh so I’ve never I don’t I don’t do that kind of consulting at all, but, um, yeah, I mean, there’s their interviews and have to take place and coordinate with people’s schedules. You know which board members just started a new business. So she’s gonna be in Costa Rica for eight weeks, you know? Uh, yeah, that’s that’s a particularly strategic planning. And I would think that’s a particularly long time frame. And then and you have to Ah, you have to be willing toe recognize that it may not be finished, even in the time that we have to find.

[00:18:20.24] spk_5:
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:23.64] spk_4:
All right. All right. Um, so before we rush through Teoh points number four and five, uh, put now I’m putting on the spot about a bit tell Tell us a story. Um, something that, uh, you know,

[00:18:35.13] spk_3:
maybe maybe when the initial conversation took place, they hadn’t thought through it enough, and you advised them that they do some internal thinking and then you did command and you were genius, and they paid you

[00:18:56.61] spk_4:
double what? The contract amount, You know, anything like that where you know, the internal work was was made a big difference. You could tell.

[00:19:02.04] spk_5:
Yeah, I wish I had that. For where they paid me double. I

[00:19:16.69] spk_4:
don’t. You know, you haven’t been consulting long enough. I have a dozen of those. Oh, man, I have a dozen of those, but I’ve been consulting since 2003. 17 years. 17 years. You’ll get there, you’ll get there about it.

[00:19:34.04] spk_5:
I What I have is more of the lesson learned in failure of the cautionary tale, particularly early on in my consulting career, Um, kind of blindly believing one person’s viewpoint of the state of an organization and not truth checking that

[00:19:42.37] spk_4:

[00:19:43.04] spk_5:
other key stakeholders.

[00:19:44.75] spk_4:
What happened?

[00:20:45.44] spk_5:
And I was a new executive director, called for some work with their board. Um, the board was having some big problems with getting work done. Committees weren’t really functioning very well. They weren’t doing their fundraising. Very as I look back things that a lot of organizations are dealing with, I often hear some of some similar complaints. And so we talked about doing 1/2 day board retreat where we developed some action plans on how to get things back on track, and I discovered upon getting into the border treat. But the board did not see these as problems on, and that if I had done some more conversation or even some assessment survey work with the board, I would have discovered that they had a very different viewpoint of what the challenges were. And they were in some, some level of conflict with the executive director about whose work was this, how they wanted to be encouraged and Stewart as volunteers of the organization. And so it was a real lesson for me of that. That question Number two has the board chair in the executive director. Have they talked about that? There they in agreement. Does everyone see this challenge from the same viewpoint

[00:21:05.49] spk_4:
that sounds like, uh, may have become Ah, hopefully not tense, but at least awkward. While you were in front of the board.

[00:21:13.89] spk_5:
It was definitely awkward. It was definitely awkward. We recovered and they did some good work. Um, but

[00:21:20.98] spk_4:

[00:21:25.12] spk_5:
good. Waas. I learned definitely that I needed to have a more comprehensive understanding of organizations before I do that kind of work.

[00:21:30.20] spk_4:
Yes, not one person’s perception. All right. Was the executive director in the room while this was unfolding?

[00:21:37.44] spk_5:
She waas

[00:21:38.56] spk_3:

[00:21:39.15] spk_5:
had some good conversations afterwards. It wasn’t It wasn’t terrible, but it really did draw more of a bright line of this is what you thought was going on. And this is what the board thinks is going on

[00:21:51.58] spk_4:
and their difference. And we

[00:21:56.16] spk_5:
need to talk about why and how we can deal with those.

[00:21:58.01] spk_4:
Okay, good that it was early on in your career. Not This was just not last week, was it?

[00:22:02.64] spk_5:
But I was not last week.

[00:22:05.46] spk_4:
Okay, So you’re going uphill. That’s good. That’s good, right? Uh, right. OK, Your next one is around money.

[00:22:53.86] spk_5:
Yes. So we already talked about this a little bit that it is so important on the front end to have an understanding of what your budget is for any work not only for other reasons we already discussed, but also because it really signals to a consultant and signal to your organization that you’re serious about addressing the challenge. Uh, so if you have money built into the budget for if you go back to the board and have them approved a revised budget with a little bit more funding for some kind of special project throughout the year, it also signals to everyone that this is a serious issue and we’re going to devote resources to it. Plus super useful for us consultants to know what we’re dealing with And if it’s even possible, As you said,

[00:23:12.24] spk_4:
Yeah, yeah, And and, uh, you know your point earlier. I want toe reemphasize. If you’re getting getting proposals that run the spectrum of costs, then you’re not really making fair comparisons?

[00:23:25.02] spk_5:
Absolutely, Absolutely. You I definitely have seen organizations to particularly for these, uh, catch all terms like strategic plan will get a $5000 proposal and a $50,000 proposal, and they’re just not comparable.

[00:24:03.22] spk_4:
And then you end up wondering Well, okay, way sounds. Let’s say we could spend the 50,000 but what would the over the 5000 person have done if we told them that our budget was 50,000 cause we like what they’re doing for five, but it’s not nearly as comprehensive. Obviously, G, what would they have done for 15? And then you got to go back to them and, you know Oh, our way. We can’t spend 25. And so neither one is quite right. You know, that’s a big botch. That’s that’s a big time. Waste time suck. All right, all right. Be up front.

[00:24:08.60] spk_3:
And there is a responsibility on consultants to I think Teoh toe Ask if if money hasn’t come up, you gotta ask What? What are we looking at? What kind of budget do you have?

[00:24:40.70] spk_5:
Absolutely having that money conversation. And I tend to do it even earlier in the conversation now because what I find is that we can daydream about all of the wonderful things we could do together. And then when they say and we have $10,000 I have to sometimes really some of those things back in or I have to have. They have to make hard choices about all of the potential beautiful options I put out on the table. So I’m even now early in the conversation, asking trick so that we can really right size. Or I can present options in a way that helps people understand what’s possible.

[00:25:00.45] spk_4:
Okay, Okay. Uh, let’s go to your last question. What do you got? You insurance? It’s

[00:25:57.32] spk_5:
the last question, but I think it might be the most important one. And that’s how much organizational time and energy do you have to address this challenge. So what’s the bandwidth for this piece of work? Um, a lot of times you may see this. Two organizations think Well, I have a problem. So we’re just gonna throw money at it. We’re gonna hire consultants and they’re gonna hear our woes and go off and fix it and come back and present us with perfect plan to solve all of our problems. Um, that’s not realistic. Uh, I don’t believe that’s how consultants who want to really make lasting change in organisations often operates. So we always need organizational help. We need board time. We need staff time. We need If we’re in the case of fundraising, we need some reports from your database. We might need to look at, um, sit down with you and really go over your last strategic plan and think about what worked and didn’t and why? But we’re definitely gonna need the executive director’s Dan with and then the other key stakeholders.

[00:26:18.04] spk_4:
Oh, getting

[00:26:18.89] spk_5:
clear. Yeah,

[00:26:20.11] spk_4:
go ahead. Now you’re finished, you finish. I’ll remember mine.

[00:26:23.62] spk_5:
Those getting clear about do you have the bandwidth? And if you are trying to do a huge capital campaign and move the office and you’ve got transition of a key staff person or you’re hiring a whole set of people because we’re ramping up for the election if there are other organizational priorities going on sometimes I’ll say If I it seems like this isn’t the right time to tackle up a big project that you really don’t have the band with, you got some other competing priorities?

[00:27:25.14] spk_4:
Uh huh. That often gets in the way of the final step. Engagement? Uh, because other things are coming up. There’s a database conversion. There’s a gala, um, et cetera. It’s valuable to to talk about. I think, at the at the granular level, how much time this is going to take a least. At least in my work. Um, you know, I need a staff person, and I’ll need maybe 4 to 5 hours a month of their time or something. You know something along those lines so that they know what they can plan around, You know, everything you just said. Just getting a little more granular with it.

[00:27:34.77] spk_5:
Yeah, I will. Often as we’re talking through, really think about what’s the board time and attention we might need?

[00:27:40.33] spk_4:
What’s the

[00:27:50.34] spk_5:
halftime in attention we might need, um and really thinking about how does that fit in with what you already have going on over the course of the year? Can we find an hour of this board meeting and three hours is aboard retreat to do this work? Or is it is your plate already full for this year? That might be OK.

[00:28:01.28] spk_4:
Okay, um, final thought Heather before, before we wrap up, Just got about a minute left.

[00:28:08.34] spk_5:
So the final about is all of these points to being really intentional about the conversations you have internally before you pick up the phone and call a consultant really thinking through what’s our challenge? How much how many resources we have to devote to this. With our time as we convert to this, that’s gonna be you’re gonna get much better proposal from consultants. And in the end, a better engagement and a better product.

[00:28:35.08] spk_4:
Have a endo. We’re gonna leave it there. Thank you very much.

[00:28:38.32] spk_5:
Thanks for having

[00:28:39.35] spk_4:
my pleasure, Heather. She’s founder of non profit dot I s t non profit ist and her consulting is at third

[00:30:11.64] spk_3:
space studio dot com. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain software, Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands how you work. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant non Tin. Now it’s time for tony Steak too. Our innovators Siri’s It just finished last week and I curated the eight Innovators into one post. We started way back in January with Edgar Villanueva that was de colonising wealth and Stephen Myers with personalized philanthropy. And it was back then in those dark days of January that I had to assure you that live innovators were coming and they did come. Um, we started off with Heather Macleod. Grant, that was social change is system change, and the innovators have been live ever since. Her Peter Shankman, Sherry, Kwame Taylor, Peter Heller, Jamie Bursts and Crisfield. They make up our innovators. Siri’s, um, you’ll find them curated, catalogued and captured with a video at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony. Take two. Now, here is the pre recorded working Virtually

[00:30:45.45] spk_6:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 18. 90. See the non profit Technology Conference 2018. We’re coming to you from the convention center in New Orleans. Second interview of the second day of our coverage. All our NTC interviews are sponsored by Network for Good, easy to use donor management and fundraising software for non profits. My guests right now are Heather Martin, CEO of Inter Paid family, and Alice Hendricks, CEO of Jackson River. Whether Alice welcome.

[00:30:46.64] spk_0:
Thank you. Welcome

[00:30:47.40] spk_6:
to non profit radio. What have you

[00:30:49.06] spk_7:
needed to be here?

[00:30:53.47] spk_6:
How’s the conference going for you, ladies? Great. Have you done? Yeah. OK, great. Excellent. Good superlative. Have you done your session yet?

[00:30:57.01] spk_0:
We did. We were on yesterday

[00:30:58.23] spk_6:
morning. Okay, so it’s all relaxing now.

[00:31:00.71] spk_7:
Now it’s partying

[00:31:17.03] spk_6:
drinks last night. Okay? All right. Your workshop topic is working. Virtual attracting and managing the best talent. I’m sure we have stats on how many org’s nonprofits have virtual employees, or at least what the trends are. It’s obviously growing growing wouldn’t be here.

[00:31:25.17] spk_0:
And not only in the nonprofit world in the for profit world as well. Um, especially in tech.

[00:31:30.24] spk_6:
Yeah. Okay,

[00:31:31.35] spk_7:
absolutely. It’s becoming it because of the technology that can a enable easily to work from home your chat technologies, videoconferencing. It’s become a thing and everyone is doing it now in exploring whether it works for their organizations a lot.

[00:32:10.25] spk_6:
Let me dive into the word everyone not to not to quibble with you at all. But I was thinking generationally, Are there 50 and 60 some things that are comfortable working, being virtual not well, maybe we’ll get to whether they’re comfortable having virtual employees. They will get to that. My voice was cracked like I’m 14. Get to that. But how about being virtual employees themselves? Are they comfortable? I’m over 50. So I include myself in that. Are we comfortable doing that or,

[00:32:37.59] spk_0:
you know, I think it actually depends on the organization, and it’s really dependent on the organization making the employee comfortable. And so I’m not sure I don’t know if you have any stats, but I don’t know. From an age perspective, there’s a very good question about an older generation being comfortable having virtual employees under them and managing them. However, as being the virtual employees, I think it’s all about how the organisation sets it up.

[00:32:48.94] spk_6:
Okay, so that there’s promise then for those 15. Absolutely. Let’s talk about it, since since we’re skirting around it, how about comfort or discomfort with having employees being virtual when you’re over 50?

[00:33:28.65] spk_0:
So I again, I I think that there might be an age discrepancy in the comfort. I also think it’s just personality, and I’m finding that when I talked to a lot of people who are looking to work virtual and they’re asking me, what can I do to go to my manager, my supervisor and quote unquote sell them on me, working virtually My answer to them is find out what the resistance is there is. Part of the resistance is we’ve always done it this way. I need to see my employees to know that they’re working. And how do you get around that some of the key things that we talked about in our session are setting very clear goals and making sure that those goals are being met.

[00:33:39.02] spk_6:
Let’s go to our talk about the gold goal setting.

[00:33:53.83] spk_7:
Yeah, I mean, I think that there’s not that much difference in terms of goal setting in terms of accountability for delivery, Bols, that you’re supposed to be doing so used that the real issue is communication, making sure you have a structure where there’s frequent communication and proof that you’re doing the delivery herbal. So you’re measured not on a punch clock style of. I get to work at nine and I leave at five, and therefore I must have worked during that eight hour period. You’re measured based on what is the work you were set out to do, And did you actually do that work in the time period? I said I would do it. So if you’re a project manager or working on a program area, you work with your you work with your supervisor on here, the things that I’m going to get done at a particular time, and if that’s not done, that’s, Ah that that could be a concern. That’s a problem with that view problem in a non workplace, too, but rather than time, it’s mostly based on work product.

[00:34:32.80] spk_6:
Okay, okay, so that should apply, Even if you don’t have any virtual, I

[00:34:36.21] spk_0:
think one of the things we’ve found is that working virtually is this or managing virtually is the same is managing in an office. But you just have to be much more intentional about what you’re doing. Much more intentional about your communication, understanding that you’re not gonna have that water cooler conversation, that someone’s not going over here something and understand where you are in a project and be ready to communicate with those people who are not physically in the office with the management and the psychology of the management is very similar.

[00:35:19.45] spk_6:
Very valuable to know on dhe make explicit. Um, how about attracting people, Teoh a virtual or attracting the right talent so that we’re comfortable that they’re gonna work in this work environment? What you thought

[00:36:07.43] spk_7:
Well, there’s two thoughts on that that I have one is What What is that? Your talent pool is the entire country or world should you see fit? And there are wonderfully talented people in places that aren’t in the city or town in which your organization is located, and it gives you this ability to recruit from a wide place. And you can also hire incredibly talented people from who have a wonderful lifestyle in a less cost of In my organization, we have people who live in a lower cost of living state than Washington, D. C. Where we’re based, and that allows me to provide a living wage and for my employees in that, um, but the other thing is just you. When you’re recruiting, you have to be very mindful of the interview process. And I think one of the things we talked about in our session was helping people figure out who these folks, how well they’ll respond to working virtually. How

[00:36:21.83] spk_6:
do you do that?

[00:36:25.92] spk_0:
Yeah, so some of the things that we recommend some of things that we recommend is number one. We use technology as a tool to enhance communication in a virtual environment, so sometimes you’re using video conferencing just for a regular meeting and you’re talking through Instant Messenger, and there’s other ways you’re using technology. So in the interview process, I always recommend that people use the technology that you’re going to require those employees to be using during their job if they can’t do an interview on Skype or zoom or appear in, and it’s very uncomfortable. It’s not to say that that might not be a good employee for you, but you have to be aware that there might need to be some training or development on that tool for them. And no going into that is important when you’re hiring that person.

[00:37:17.43] spk_6:
And if you see generally a discomfort with technology, that’s a pretty big red flag

[00:37:33.48] spk_0:
or a red flag that you might need to overcome or that person is not right for the position. And then the other question is some positions just don’t lend themselves to working virtually, and you have to be aware of that when you’re hiring also well. One of the the easiest ones that we look at is if your office manager and you’re managing the physical office days, it’s really difficult to be virtual when you need to notice that there’s a crack in the sailing where the vendor needs toe, you know, deliver something and be their

[00:37:47.97] spk_6:
way. Don’t have a tool for measuring the coffee level.

[00:37:54.40] spk_0:
Zack. Remotely There’s an app for that. You can probably

[00:38:19.72] spk_3:
time for our last break turn to communications. They’re former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news you need to be on top of so that you stay relevant in your community. They are at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got but loads more time for working virtually with Heather Martin and Alice Hendrix or

[00:38:25.98] spk_6:
any others that stand out to you.

[00:38:38.00] spk_0:
I think it depends on the industry and what the job you’re doing. If you’re someone who does intake or you have to be there to welcome people into the office, you need someone physically there. There may be hybrids where sometimes people could work in the office, and sometimes people could work from home. And I think thinking this through before you move to a virtual environment or virtual job for that specific role is key. You can’t just say OK, tomorrow we’re just gonna go

[00:38:55.45] spk_6:
virtual Alice. How do you How do you create this environment That’s gonna be hospitable toe virtual. I

[00:39:00.49] spk_7:
mean, it’s all about culture. You have to create a culture where everyone is communicating well with each other, where people know what the expectation is on response times of communication.

[00:39:10.16] spk_6:
He’s gotta start at the top.

[00:39:11.37] spk_7:
It has to start

[00:39:14.72] spk_6:
a willingness to accommodate virtual employees. Okay, so it starts there. And then how does that out of the CEO trickling down?

[00:39:21.43] spk_7:
You adhere to it. So rather than walking from my office into someone else’s office and telling them what I think they should know that maybe two other people who aren’t physically there also need to know. I will do that on a slack channel, for example. So I’ll use an instant messenger chat program, and I’ll put them all on the channel and talk to them all together at once.

[00:39:39.10] spk_6:
You go through with a bar, or

[00:39:40.29] spk_7:
even if that’s the situation, because it requires amount of discipline because you don’t want to leave people out. The interstitial conversation that happens at the water cooler can also be done virtually, and that’s pretty important, too.

[00:39:58.41] spk_6:
Okay, Excellent. Excellent. All right, we’re gonna get the tools you mentioned. Slack Aslak Channel. Is that that a tool? Okay, okay. Chat. It’s a simple chance.

[00:39:59.54] spk_7:
Chance chance software. Yeah,

[00:40:01.53] spk_6:
you’re over my head, but I’m trainable. I could be a virtual employee trust

[00:40:05.65] spk_7:
way. Remind us in technology challenges there, but way remedial. You got the radio?

[00:40:16.81] spk_6:
Yeah, I’m very good at that. I mean, I got knobs and everything from buttons and old. I don’t know what they do. Um, okay, What else? Anything else about creating the environment making inhospitable.

[00:40:21.71] spk_0:
I think some of the things that some of the other things are making sure that your remote employees have the tools, whether it’s the technology or even a monitor to go along with that laptop that you’ve given them because some some people go into a new job, they’re given a laptop, they say work from home. And it’s not as easy as just. Is your home office conducive? And being able to help them think through what are the things that they need to set up in a virtual environment to make them successful and effective at what they’re doing? We talk about a little bit about security and knowing what the security measures are. You can’t go into a coffee shop and work from your computer. Number one. Are you on the Y? Fire? You on the public? WiFi? Are you on a virtual private network? Are you using your hot spot? You’ve to go the bathroom and your computer sitting in Starbucks. Do you leave it there and ask the person next to tow? Watch your computer while you go to I mean, we set policies around these things, especially in organizations that have a lot of regulations on data and accessibility for their information. These are things you have to think about when you’re creating a virtual environment.

[00:41:22.50] spk_6:
OK? It could be hip. Maybe. What’s the credit card? P C M

[00:41:26.22] spk_7:
p c I

[00:41:28.93] spk_6:
c. I Okay, what do you do when you’re at Starbucks alone? You’re on. You’re on a VPN virtual private network. But you have to go the bathroom. You gotta close up your

[00:41:47.08] spk_7:
laptop. You use the diaper changing table in and you pull it down in the restroom and put your laptop on that. Take care of your business, OK? This is very

[00:41:47.64] spk_6:
all right, though. I love the nitty gritty. Listen,

[00:41:49.82] spk_7:
I mean, we’re all about real life here. Way need

[00:41:55.79] spk_6:
to detail. You need clear policies around

[00:41:56.47] spk_7:
policies that people sign. And everyone is very well aware of what the security policies are.

[00:42:09.48] spk_6:
Protection, use of technology. You said the company’s versus your pride. Your personal technology. Home versus away from home. Okay, All right. Help me out here. Getting else what else belongs. Just ask you what else belongs in our policy?

[00:42:49.40] spk_0:
Well, so there were talking about there’s communication policies. How? I mean, one of the things that we found when we first started having more virtual employees. We started as an in office. Everyone was in the office. And as we grew into different communities, we had employees in different cities and states than our headquarters were located in. And things like when I send an email, I just need you to acknowledge that the email was sent. If you’re in the office and I send you an email and you haven’t responded, I could walk into your office and say, Hey, you get my email. Even if you’re not ready to respond to it, I know you’ve gotten it. And by five oclock that day, I’ll get an answer when someone’s virtual and you send an email, you have no idea if it got lost. Did it go into there Spam and you have to get some kind of communication

[00:42:57.78] spk_6:
with water. Quick. Got it.

[00:42:58.71] spk_0:
So we said a communication policy that says If I asked you something or requested something, you send an email back saying I got it and I’ll get back to you by Wednesday period. The end. It’s all set. And so that that you need to be very much more aware of those types of things and other community way have communication policies that go along with that.

[00:43:19.18] spk_6:
Okay, Alice, you wanna add Teoh or policy statement? I

[00:43:30.17] spk_7:
mean, the security, I think, is the most important. You know, the email security, the hacking potentials. You know what happens also, when someone is let go the lockout procedures, they have access to all of your systems. And they’re, you know, in North Dakota, somewhere at a coffee shop, you have to shut down all of their access to things. So all of that needs to be planned at the I t level in the company. What are you going to do? And how are you handling staff with remote devices?

[00:43:48.36] spk_6:
Can we do this if we don’t have a dedicated T staff person?

[00:43:52.26] spk_0:
We don’t have a dedicated Yes, it is.

[00:43:53.19] spk_6:
So the family says the answer is yes. Okay, because our were small and midsize non profits in this audience of listeners. So

[00:43:59.85] spk_0:
you onboard someone with technology? When they leave, you do the same thing. Onley with a virtual person. You don’t physically have them there. And so you have to do the same thing you would do if someone was in the office. But make sure you couldn’t do it while they’re not physically there. How did they get your computer back to you? Do they FedEx it to you? Are you going to go pick it up somewhere if they’re not there? And so just those types of things need to be thought

[00:44:42.20] spk_6:
through. Okay. Excellent. I love the policy statement details, because this is the stuff you have to think through. And then Alice, to your point, it has to be activated. Implemented on from the top. You can’t just have a policy and ignore it. You know, if it’s the CEO. It’s a sea level person whose, whose distant they to have to say, I got your email and I’ll get back to you by Wednesday.

[00:44:49.42] spk_7:
Everybody has to play by the same rules. There shouldn’t be exceptions or any accommodations for anything else. Yeah,

[00:44:54.62] spk_6:
okay, Um, how about let’s talk about some of the needs that your remote staff has been talking about, like managing the office? What special needs to the people who we only see a couple of times a year have?

[00:45:07.27] spk_7:
That’s a great question. I think they

[00:45:10.10] spk_6:
it took that long.

[00:45:53.38] spk_7:
They need community. They need a partner. They need a buddy. They need to know that they’re not all alone. I’m so frequent meetings daily. Stand up calls, Um, and Heather’s organization. They stand up. Call it Well, it’s It’s a phrase for on a daily time when you just spend 15 minutes sort of role going around. The company’s saying, Who’s doing what? That day or a day or a team? If you’re working on a project together, you know everyone’s together on either a video chat or a conference call, or it could even be during on a slack channel or a Skype Group or a Google hangouts or any type of technology that people can come together for a period of time. The more frequent that happens, the more connected they feel. And there is an issue of feeling lonely. It’s not that you’re just going off on your back room and typing all day long on your own. You need to be part of a community and part of a team. And the technology helps enable that and a Heather’s organization. There’s you do. What is it, a buddy?

[00:47:02.84] spk_0:
So anyone who is new, who comes on board, there’s a couple things we do. One is no matter what level you’re at. You come to Boston for a couple days toe on board. You actually see physical people. That’s probably essential. It’s really it was one of like he learnings. When I started working virtually is to know that there’s a physical person in a physical space, or just seeing meeting someone face to face gives you much more of a connection to them immediately. The other thing we do is when we hire people, we kind of give them. We give them Ah ah, a partner. So we hire a new associate director in L. A. And we put them with the associate director in Atlanta. This is not a mentor. This is not a supervisor. This is someone you can ask the dumb questions too. Like, how do I get my expenses paid? Or I’m sure they told me this during orientation, but I don’t know what to do about X, y and Z. And just having that person that you know you can go to is critical. Especially when you’re by yourself in an office or in your home. And you’re trying to go up the learning curve of starting a new job.

[00:47:11.86] spk_6:
Okay. All right. What else? Uh, anything else to be empathetic to our remote employees

[00:47:20.49] spk_0:
again? This is a typical management. I would say this you should be doing this any time is just everyone’s intent is good. Assume that is good. And there’s a good intent all all the time.

[00:47:25.68] spk_6:
That could be that That that’s gonna have implications for chatting

[00:47:30.88] spk_0:

[00:47:31.25] spk_6:
female. No, you can’t. You’ll never hear the well, Not never, but most of the communications. You’re not gonna hear the inflection in the person

[00:47:38.19] spk_0:
you don’t see the Sometimes you don’t see the physical. You don’t see the physical, you don’t get the inflection. And so, before you jump into anything someone sent. And I get this all the time and sends me an email and says I need blank Well, that could be taken in so many different ways. Are you demanding something from me? Did ice not get you something? There’s so much in just those three words. And so my first thing is to okay, they have good intentions. Let me follow up. You need blank by when? What is this foot? Get more information. They’re not. Now. They could be like You haven’t done something. I need it now. And recovery screaming. It could be screaming at you, but the default is not do that. And what we do actually is we have everyone created communications charter that says how they like to be interacted with. And so I understand if you are one of these people who sends very short emails, I also have the flip side where someone sends me seven paragraph e mails to describe one thing. And so if I understand how you interact, I could read that email with that understanding not to immediately assume that you’re yelling at me in the email.

[00:48:50.38] spk_6:
Valuable. Um, anything else? Anything else to be supportive again, Empathetic to the remote employees we covered it, recovered it. But I

[00:48:51.72] spk_7:

[00:48:51.84] spk_6:
to make sure we’re

[00:48:52.29] spk_7:
the only other thing I can think of is definitely getting together at least once a year with the whole team culture building.

[00:49:31.07] spk_0:
It’s tough. It’s tough in a non profit environment where you’ve got a very tight budget. But we have prioritised an all in person meeting in Boston. So we’ve got staff in California, in Chicago, in Atlanta and Philadelphia. We make sure that we try in our budgeting process to bring everyone to Boston for two days during the summer, not only for good brainstorming and and thinking and strategy conversations, but also so they can connect with each other and have that community and build that in person conversation and feel comfortable with each

[00:49:32.86] spk_6:
other. And you feel like once a year is sufficient.

[00:49:35.34] spk_0:
You know, if I had the budget to do it more, I worked a

[00:49:38.09] spk_6:
little longer, but

[00:49:43.42] spk_0:
all of that, yes, and so you have to take it for one of the the tools that we talk about is the airplane. I mean, yes, it’s expensive, but it’s a really helpful tool to really get past some of the boundaries that are put up when you don’t actually physically meet in person.

[00:49:55.76] spk_6:
Alice, do you have virtual employees? Also Jackson River

[00:49:58.50] spk_7:
30 30 Working 30. Promoting entire organization is virtual

[00:50:04.94] spk_6:
Oh my God! OK, where’s the Is there a physical office?

[00:50:12.07] spk_7:
There is a physical office with three people in Washington, D. C. But so we all behave as if we’re virtual. And there are many days that I don’t go into the office. So in its you know, it saves a lot of money and transportation costs. It stays dry cleaning bills for everyone. It saves child care expenses that you know it’s a very great way to have a lifestyle, because you you have that flexibility. There’s also downsides to it. There are days that I wake up in the morning at 6 a.m. and check email, and all of a sudden it’s too, and I haven’t eaten breakfast yet, and then I’m until six at night. So you know it’s a It’s the same type of work life integration needs toe happen in a virtual environment as well as a physical office space. You know, you need to know how to take a break.

[00:50:58.95] spk_6:
You mentioned saving childcare expenses. So? So the the remote employees. It needs to be understood that the remote employees may not be immediately accessible, right for a quick for last minute way. Gotta talk right now,

[00:51:03.52] spk_7:
So I think it’s about

[00:51:04.34] spk_6:
have something going on that is gonna hold him up for 10 or 15

[00:51:31.76] spk_7:
way. Try and make sure that people have adequate coverage to do their job during the day, the hours that they need to work. So we have a lot of employees that are at 30 hours a week because they want to spend more time with their families. Um, older Children can be met at the bus stop and take care of themselves for a few hours in the afternoon. But the expectations of performance air still there, You know, we’re pretty high stress. High standards of that. You know, we don’t want you to be distracted from your work. How do you

[00:51:35.21] spk_6:
manage? The West Coast versus East Coast is the West Coast. People have to do the West Coast. People have to start at 6 a.m. Local time.

[00:51:39.53] spk_7:
I think a lot of people do different policies on that. Our policy is that you work for the day that work the business day in the time zone in which you live. So it’s sometimes hard if we’re dealing with Europe and the West Coast at the same time, because the time zones don’t overlap as well.

[00:51:53.17] spk_6:
Everybody’s in Europe.

[00:52:04.21] spk_7:
We don’t have employees in your village of clients in Europe, so it’s Ah, it’s a situation where we have to manage that. But there are organizations that have West Coast people working East Coast hours way don’t have

[00:52:06.85] spk_0:
a as explicit policy that you work those hours. But we asked people how early on the West Coast, how early would you be willing to have a meeting so we will not set meetings with some people? Some people are early morning people, and they would rather work from 7 to 3 rather than 9 to 5, and so we’ll work with your schedule individually. And so I said, there are some meetings I will have on the West Coast is seven in the morning, but that’s due to that person willing to do that.

[00:52:40.83] spk_6:
We have a few minutes left. Still, let’s talk about some of the tech tools I was gonna ask you about. Slack. What dot com How do we find it or what they do for us?

[00:52:42.95] spk_7:
Black dot com It’s how you find it. You know, it’s it’s equivalent to Skype. Or there’s Google chat any type of chat software where everyone can log into. And then there’s you can make groups in them, so the term for a group in Slack is called a channel. And in our organization, we have a channel for one of the channels is named lunch. And if you’re gonna be away for 20 minutes or going to lunch, we just take we just like everyone who’s in the company on that channel and say, Hey, stepping away for a bit, I’ll be back in half an hour. So we are all know it’s almost a ZX, though you would see me walk out the door, you know. And instead of walking out the door, I’m just telling that channel what’s happening. There’s channels reach project. Also, Slack is a good ones.

[00:53:22.33] spk_6:
Black has already a verb. It’s like someone

[00:53:31.93] spk_7:
just like someone. It’s a verbal. You Skype, someone you trust someone. Do you remember a well instant messenger that that was a one matter, that you could use that?

[00:53:38.86] spk_6:
Well, I was. But, um OK, so slack for, Ah, for chatting. A quick, quick chat about document sharing is simple. Google docks or something better.

[00:53:44.99] spk_7:
It’s a simple Google. Microsoft has a great

[00:54:16.27] spk_0:
product. Microsoft’s one Dr SharePoint Microsoft Suite has has a document sharing software. Ah, cloud based saving system. Um, Skype is now escape for businesses and integrated with it. And so we’re using that in the office. And then there’s There’s a ton of independent ones out there, and it’s whether it’s video conferencing or it’s document sharing or its chatting. There’s a ton out there, and I think it could be overwhelming. And for us, it was evaluating what was best for our organization and what our upper management was able to use. We talked about this before, is modeling the behavior you want from your staff, and so getting upper management on board was key. So one of our project management software, we use a sauna, and we’ve tried three or four of them, and our CEO liked asana. And so if she was going to use a sauna, we’re all going to use this on. And so I think that’s really important. It’s got to be easy to use and work for your organization.

[00:54:48.64] spk_6:
Calendar Ring Simple is

[00:54:50.53] spk_7:
callin during Yeah,

[00:54:51.97] spk_6:
you have any other tools besides Google Calendar

[00:54:54.43] spk_0:
were using outlooks Calendar.

[00:54:57.04] spk_6:
Microsoft. Yeah, all right,

[00:54:58.43] spk_7:
I think.

[00:55:00.51] spk_6:
What other ah categories we need toe

[00:55:02.54] spk_7:
video chat video is really important.

[00:55:05.24] spk_6:
Describe a couple

[00:55:14.14] spk_7:
I couldn’t do one on video with Skype, you can do video with Google hangouts, but any time you can actually have an opportunity to see someone’s face and most of the calls we try to do as videos and we find that that works really, really well,

[00:55:21.05] spk_6:
river again, the sense of community.

[00:55:47.46] spk_0:
And if you can’t get together, that’s almost the next best thing. And video has come a long way. The technology is more seamless than ever before, and so at least you’re seeing the person. You might not get all of the nuance of the physical that that’s in the room, but you can see a emotion, or you can see a reaction to something which is super or their cat walking the cat. We could get a lot of pets walking in front of the camera while people are on video. This

[00:55:47.99] spk_6:
can be a lot of fun to talk about cats, but, you know, you have 30 virtual employees. Alice. Um, you have fun doing it. I mean,

[00:55:56.18] spk_7:
it’s awesome. It’s completely awesome is I love it. And, you know, the best thing is that that people have really formed strong relationships with each other. They when you ask them what they like most about working here, is they say each other. They say, the people I’m here because I have connected relationships with other people on the team. And to be able to create a culture where people feel connected to each other in a remote environment is is like That’s the thing I’m most proud of. Anything we’ve ever done. It doesn’t have to do their software product or what we’ve done to impact non profits is the fact that we’ve had a culture of people that have had a wonderful time working and doing productive, impactful things.

[00:56:35.99] spk_6:
Jackson River always had a largest proportion of employees virtual from the beginning

[00:56:36.56] spk_7:
from the beginning

[00:56:38.64] spk_6:
in the culture of the start, about about family

[00:56:49.97] spk_0:
well, we started as a 2.5 person organization in the same way. We got to probably about 8 to 10 people in the office, and then our growth took us into different cities and communities. And that’s when we became virtual because of the growth. And so we’re probably half in the office in Boston, and then half of our staff is outside and there’s one or two people in a city by themselves.

[00:57:03.41] spk_6:
We’ll leave it there.

[00:57:04.30] spk_0:
Excellent, Thank you.

[00:57:05.82] spk_6:
All right. They are Heather Martin, CEO of Interfaith Family, and Alice Hendricks, CEO of Jackson River. This interview, sponsored by Network for Good, Easy to use donor management and fundraising software for non profits. And this is tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 18 NTC ladies. Thank you so much.

[00:57:23.70] spk_0:
Thank you, thank you. Pleasure.

[00:58:06.32] spk_3:
Next week there’s a good chance it’ll be privacy. Best practices on. If that’s not next week, it’ll be coming very, very soon, and something else will be excellent next week. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony done m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo Ah, creative

[00:58:45.84] spk_2:
producers Claire Meyerhoff Sadly, Boots is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein You with me next week for not profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Nonprofit Radio for April 17, 2020: Be A Disrupter

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My Guest:

Chris Field: Be A Disrupter
Chris Field has been disrupting since he ran for mayor at age 19. His book, “Disrupting For Good,” tells the stories of unheralded, disrupting folks from age 5 to 77. And encourages you to do the same. Thankfully, he’s with me for the hour. He’s the perfect guest to round out our Innovators Series.




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[00:00:14.34] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:01:28.64] spk_4:
profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our eighth and final show in The Innovators, Siri’s be a disrupter. Crisfield has been disrupting since he ran for mayor at age 19. His book, Disrupting for Good, tells the stories of unheralded disrupting folks from age 5 to 77 encourages you to do the same. Thankfully, he’s with me for the hour. He’s the perfect guest to round out our innovators. Siris on 20 steak, too. I’m channeling You were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. What

[00:01:28.85] spk_3:
a pleasure to

[00:02:16.44] spk_4:
welcome our eighth innovator in the Siri’s rounding out the Innovators Siri’s Crisfield, his book is disrupting for good, using passion and persistence to create a lasting change since 19. He’s directed a camp for inner city kids, created viral Internet campaigns, started his own marathon, set multiple Guinness World records and raised millions of dollars for charity. His greatest passion is Mercy Project, the non profit he started with his wife in Ghana, Africa, to help rescue child slaves out of the fishing industry. It’s at mercy project dot net. He’s at May. Meet Crisfield dot com, meet Crisfield dot com and at disruption, Chris Crisfield. Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:19.74] spk_0:
Tony, Thank you so much.

[00:02:31.23] spk_4:
It’s a pleasure. I am very glad to have you. Um, we’re getting We got a full hour to talk about your book, which I, which I love, um, disrupting. You

[00:02:32.15] spk_3:
know, you may as well I don’t even want

[00:02:35.18] spk_4:
to start with. What’s a disrupter? Start with that 19 year old ran for mayor story. It’s so good. Um, it was it was your inaugural disruption, I suppose. Um, it’s carried down to your daughter. Will get to all this. Tell the tell the tell the mayor story.

[00:02:52.54] spk_0:
Yeah. I was 19 and a freshman in college,

[00:02:56.07] spk_4:
a text

[00:03:08.78] spk_0:
saying them and really was just actually reading the local newspaper was in 5002 and assaulted the two candidate for male for mayor.

[00:03:14.36] spk_4:
Freedom to

[00:03:19.34] spk_0:
yeah, to 70 year old men. And I thought, You know, in this town of 100,000 people,

[00:03:23.06] spk_4:
what’s this? College is at College Station, Texas Yet Route station, 40

[00:03:31.48] spk_0:
1000 college students, tons of young families. I thought, that’s crazy that there’s

[00:03:32.81] spk_4:

[00:03:41.24] spk_0:
one closer to more representative of the average person in this town and their experience, you know? And so I thought I should run for mayor.

[00:03:44.24] spk_4:
I mean, that I’m closer to age.

[00:03:58.18] spk_0:
I’m a college student Centre college students. So let’s go see what it takes. I showed up in the city hall, went to the city secretary. Astor said him. I’m here to sign up, to run for mayor. And she said, Well, you should start with City Council, sweetheart.

[00:04:02.80] spk_3:
So you know our

[00:04:05.37] spk_0:
tire. I appreciate

[00:04:07.03] spk_4:

[00:04:08.05] spk_0:
Especially being called sweetheart feels especially meaningful,

[00:04:11.20] spk_4:

[00:05:14.07] spk_0:
I think I’m gonna go for mayor here. I mean, I I think I’m really gonna go for it. And it seems like the same amount of work to me to run for mayor or city Council. And so she kind of huffed and rolled her eyes and slid the piece of paper across to me and I signed up. And then I came to a stop because I had to have a campaign manager had to put their name and information on there for legal purposes, and I hadn’t talked to anybody about going down to sign up. So I before the days of cell phones, too, by the way. So I quickly signed up. My my one of my best friends is also freshman a texting them named Tristan Webber. And as soon as I got home, I picked up my handheld phone there in the room and I called him and I said, Hey, if anyone calls you like the newspaper and ask you about being my campaign manager, it’s true. I’m running for mayor and I put your campaign manager said, Oh my gosh, I don’t know how to do that. I said, Don’t worry, I’m not gonna raise any money. I just had to have a campaign manager. And he said, Our finance manager said, Okay, man, whatever. And I said, Don’t say that If they call, you can’t say whatever you gotta say something about what

[00:05:18.20] spk_4:
a great ass that I’m

[00:05:34.74] spk_0:
gonna be to the community, you know? So he laughed, and and that was that. I was officially a mayoral candidate. So the spring of my freshman year of college, I started wearing black and a dress shirt every day to class and going out and walk in the streets and meeting people and inviting them to vote for Chris Field as mayor of people really got a kick out of seeing my age. I did my homework, and I got third out of five candidates, so I didn’t lose, But I didn’t win.

[00:05:46.14] spk_4:
All right, That’s terrific. What year was that?

[00:05:49.08] spk_0:
That was in May of 2002 when the election was

[00:05:52.41] spk_4:
okay. All right. I love it. Thank you. Awesome. Uh, yes. Oh, um, yeah,

[00:05:58.28] spk_3:
I love that, you know. So I decided to run for mayor. That’s not the first thought

[00:06:14.79] spk_4:
that most people would have. Most people would just scowl about it, be pissed off, and, uh, and talk to their friends about it over a beer back at the back of the dorm. But you’re a person of action. Disruption. Uh, what What uh What generally is a disrupter?

[00:07:04.51] spk_0:
Yes. So in my book, I have two definitions for disruptor, and the first is a disrupter is someone who is uncomfortable with the truth. So they show up, take action and persist until a new and better truth is born. And then the second definition is that a disrupter dismantles accepted norms and forge is unimagined futures. So those were two sides of the same coin, and both of them have very similar messages, and that is a disrupter. Sees something, and they do something. I mean, that’s what it boils down to is they see something that bothers them, which most of us are really good at. But then they do something about it to create something better than what they’re now. And that’s where most of a struggle is on the action.

[00:07:17.31] spk_4:
Yeah, the forging, the forging and the and the sticking. Yep. Yeah. As I said, most of us would not choose to run for mayor. We would, right? We were just scowled about it on and let it go. Let it run off our backs. But all right, all right. So I

[00:07:28.84] spk_3:
don’t know. I wonder if there’s

[00:07:29.94] spk_4:
any kind of, but you don’t mention statistics in the book at all. But do we know what proportion of the the U. S population might be Disruptors versus all the rest of us?

[00:07:41.24] spk_0:
Yeah, you know, I don’t I don’t know that statistic. I

[00:07:44.12] spk_4:
know that

[00:08:15.64] spk_0:
when I went out to look for stories of disruptors to fill the book and to understand Maura about that mentality in that mind because, you know, really, what, where where this came from was I had a friend in 2014 that e mailed me and he had found a program at U. S. C where you could get a bachelor’s degree in disruption. And I was long past college. At that point, I had a couple of college degrees and I wasn’t going back, but he he e mailed me and he said When I saw this, you were the first person I thought of.

[00:08:20.73] spk_4:
Oh, yeah,

[00:08:40.74] spk_0:
And I thought, you know, that is kind of what I’ve been doing all these years. Like I haven’t always had a name for it, and it hasn’t always been very popular, and certainly my teachers didn’t like it in grade school, but that’s what I’ve been to disrupt her for all these years. And it wasn’t always for good. But now it has, you know, Morphin into disrupting for good. And so, no, I think that all of us have that disruptor inside of us.

[00:08:48.54] spk_4:

[00:09:06.07] spk_0:
but for whatever reason, I think, actually, kids are better disruptors than adults because kids aren’t afraid to fail. I mean, you think about when a child sees I have four young kids between two. And 10. And what I love about Children is that when they see something wrong, their immediate responses we should do something about that.

[00:09:25.83] spk_4:
All right, my Chris Hold hold that. We’re gonna take our first break. We’re gonna take our first break, but definitely I want to pursue the this this kid channel. So absolutely. Just bear with me for a short break for wegner-C.P.As wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished accurately and on time so that you are getting the device, the device, the advice, the advice, the hostess so lackluster ITT’s, It’s It’s pathetic, really, That the host is not better. Um, so

[00:09:46.65] spk_3:
that you get the

[00:10:01.14] spk_4:
advice of an experienced partner. You Each tomb, you know him. He’s been on the show just a couple weeks ago and a full firm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of nine nineties and audits under their belt. That’s what it’s all about. Wegner-C.P.As dot com now Okay, let’s go back to be a disrupter. And yes, please. Children are less fearful of failure.

[00:11:04.43] spk_0:
Absolutely, yeah. You know, if you think about Children, if whether it’s your own kids or your grandkids or nieces and nephews are just a child, you know, you know when they see something that’s wrong when they hear a story about Children in another country or somebody who doesn’t have clean water or, you know, whatever the thing is there a media response is not Oh, someone should do something about that or, oh, why haven’t Why hasn’t the government or, you know, shouldn’t shouldn’t someone write a paper or create a petition or go on Facebook and Twitter and complain about the immediately we should help them? Or we should do something about that, you know? And that’s the no, that’s the sort of response of Children, and I love that response I think we outgrow that as adults because we we began to fear failure. We experience failure

[00:11:07.89] spk_4:

[00:11:23.03] spk_0:
we know we don’t like it doesn’t feel good. And so for many of us, we kind of, honestly, we stopped trying hard stuff when we begin to avoid anything that might cause this pain. But unfortunately that’s where so much of the transformation happens is in those moments where we might fail. And that’s really where disruption takes root.

[00:11:46.54] spk_4:
Yeah, this is This is a profound, I think. I wonder how many thousands of ideas for a better Starbucks are germinating in people’s minds. Tens of thousands, but no one takes him on. It’s Yeah, it’s

[00:11:47.65] spk_0:
exactly right.

[00:11:48.66] spk_4:

[00:13:45.94] spk_0:
in because you use the example of Starbucks, you multiply that times a 1,000,000. I mean, how many? How many times a day does the average person say, You know, that shouldn’t be like that or that could be so much better. I don’t know why somebody doesn’t fill in the blank, but almost none of those times do we actually step into that gap ourselves and say, Why not me? You know, I mean, why not mean that was the question to change my whole life. When I was 19 when I ran for mayor, I ran my first marathon and I got hired to direct a camp for inner city kids, the non profit camp for kids who couldn’t afford to go to summer camp. And all those things happen in a six month period. All of a sudden, I realized that the barriers around me that I perceived as made out of concrete or metal they were actually paper McShay and all they took was the slightest touch, and they fell over. And so all of a sudden it was like my eyes were open to this world and I would see something around me that oh well, you can’t do that like, Well, why not? Or no one’s ever done that before. Well, why not me or someone should fix that? Well, I should fix that. I’m just totally changed the change the way I view the world announced that kind of going along in treating life as though I was a spectator and life was happening to me all of a sudden. Now I felt like I was a fool, capable participants, And if there was something I didn’t like I had the power to change that. They on a big scale like some of things we talked about, but also on a very small scale. If I didn’t like being tired every morning, I could change my schedule to go to bed earlier. If I wanted to make a better grade, I could work harder or go to tutoring or find somebody in the class that knew more about it than I did. And it was incredibly empowering. Thio suddenly view life as a 1,000,000 opportunities to embrace the chance to create really meaningful change. Instead of just kind of wandering along as though life was happening to me, it was a huge paradigm shift for me.

[00:14:17.84] spk_4:
Yeah, And instead of life happening to you, I love your metaphor of paper machine versus concrete barriers on dhe steel barriers, paper mache, eh? Um yeah. You say explicitly in the book we can choose to disrupt. We can’t. It’s a conscious choice. We make not to make a change when we see something that is requires action needs dismantling, you say dismantling. All right, what we’re talking about, kids. Go ahead, tell the story of ah little Micah.

[00:14:40.59] spk_0:
Yeah. So my daughter, Mike, uh, is now she’s 10 But when she was five years old, her stories in the book. And when she was five years old, she came home from pre K, and she’s a feisty little gal, which I love, and she

[00:14:43.45] spk_4:

[00:15:00.74] spk_0:
kind of stomped her foot and looked up in my wife for me. And she said, Why don’t we recycle and we think Whoa, whoa, whoa. What? What, What? What? What’s prompted this strong feeling here. And she said, You know, at school today we learned all about recycling and how terrible trash is for the earth. And how so much if it could be avoided if we just recycled. And I want to know why we don’t recycle. And we said, Well, little miss,

[00:15:12.59] spk_4:
I’ll tell you why, sweetheart. Did you call her? You got condescending, sweetheart. You didn’t give her that.

[00:15:16.94] spk_0:
Yeah, I actually probably was a little scared of talking

[00:15:21.07] spk_4:
back. He was pretty fired. Yes, you’re wiser than that clerk in college station. Okay?

[00:15:54.04] spk_0:
Exactly. And I said, Hey, I said Mike a great question. I’ll tell you why we don’t recycle cause we’re just outside the city limits, and there’s no recycling program where we live, and I don’t even know where we would take our recycling, you know, in our city, because the city picks it up. But I don’t know, you know, it’s private and she said, Well, why hasn’t someone started a recycling? You know, business? If the city doesn’t do it, why didn’t someone else do it? And I So I guess they think they couldn’t make money. It’s just not worth the trouble. And she said, Well, I’m glad they haven’t done it because I’ll

[00:15:58.25] spk_4:
do it.

[00:16:15.65] spk_0:
And so, five years old, she hired her brother, paid them a dollar to walk the neighborhood with their They passed out 75 flyers to these long driveways live lived in a neighborhood that had acreage so long, driveways, little leg. Took

[00:16:17.42] spk_4:
him all afternoon, two

[00:16:18.69] spk_0:
hours, three hours and

[00:16:20.26] spk_4:
little wouldn’t

[00:16:38.54] spk_0:
you know. So may I start getting the D E mails? People saying we’d love to sign up for recycling with Michael, we’d love to sign up, so I borrowed my wife’s minivan. I just had a little sedan and we started going out. We went out Thursday morning, picked up all the recycling 15 customers. We start doing that every single Thursday and after two years, Micah’s recycled £40,000 of trash, which the equivalent of like 500,000 aluminum cans and her along the way. I’m getting paid every month, of course, which she has. No idea. She’s five

[00:16:56.17] spk_4:
yards, get $5 she’s excited. But along those

[00:16:58.94] spk_0:
two years, she stays up enough money to pay for first semester of college.

[00:17:04.82] spk_4:
That’s incredible. End up telling

[00:17:05.47] spk_0:
the brother the business for a little brother for

[00:17:08.07] spk_4:

[00:17:10.34] spk_0:
she takes it over when he’s in kindergarten. He does it for a year. We move out of that neighborhood, so he sells it to middle school boys for 200

[00:17:19.07] spk_4:
dollars. That was

[00:17:24.54] spk_0:
the that was the first business creation sale and then eventual acquisition from another company for my five and seven year old kid.

[00:17:40.34] spk_4:
Even a five year old can disrupt Yeah, if the five year old can do it, you can too. That’s outstanding. Um,

[00:17:45.84] spk_3:
you say that, um, most of you find that we’re gonna

[00:17:58.91] spk_4:
get to a couple of stories, and then, of course, we’re definitely gonna get to your call to action. This is not just a storybook, but you want people to challenge themselves and become disruptors e each each of them as well. Um, but

[00:18:03.69] spk_3:
you say that eyes this kind of in passing.

[00:18:04.99] spk_4:
But it struck me because of what we what we talk about here. You

[00:18:07.99] spk_3:
think you feel like most thought

[00:18:09.16] spk_4:
leaders are not in non profit therein most thought leaders Aaron four profit enterprises.

[00:18:53.03] spk_0:
Yeah, I think that I think the non profit industry has struggles over the years. I’m a young guy. I’m 37. So I’m not. I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes. I know sometimes when I say that people, people kind of get frustrated me. But I think that the the business world, the four profit world has more heavily compensated creativity than the non profit world. And so that tends to be where creative, big system thinking problem solvers end up. And I think that’s been at the demise of nonprofits. I mean, I would say like this

[00:19:12.94] spk_4:
well detriment eyes, not detriment, is not killing. It’s not killing us, but it’s hurting us. I think you mean right, e. I understand. I have to struggle with words all time. I’m not being insulting it all. We’re not killing. It’s not killing non profit but definitely injuring them.

[00:20:00.84] spk_0:
But I think that the way I put it is like this. There’s a lot of non profit, if we’re honest that the complexity of our solution does not match the complexity of the problem we’re trying to solve. And unfortunately, when that happened, it means we’re probably not getting at the root causes of that thing we’re trying to solve, because if it were easy to solve and it was a simple solution, it probably would have already been solved, you know? But it’s going to require some sophistication, is gonna require some complexity. And that’s not a bad thing. I mean, that’s a good thing, because when we begin to create complex solution, that’s when we really begin to get at the root causes of why a problem exists. And that’s when we can begin to end it forever.

[00:20:29.52] spk_4:
Yeah, the the problems certainly are complex, but, you know, I don’t know, pick homelessness O r. Or hunger or climate change. Oh, our domestic abuse. Um, animal abuse education, you know, um, but

[00:20:29.76] spk_3:
yeah. And certainly

[00:20:39.96] spk_4:
four profit salaries generally are higher than you know on average, Certainly their higher. But

[00:20:42.70] spk_3:
we, you know, we attract Ah, yeah, Well, we attract an altruistic,

[00:20:53.94] spk_4:
uh, personages Thio, delete and, um, altruism and passion. I’m sure you would say it takes more than that, though. Um,

[00:20:56.86] spk_3:
and there are, You know, there are

[00:20:57.89] spk_4:
bright thought leaders in the nonprofit community, but you’re saying the proportion the larger proportion is is in the four profit enterprises.

[00:21:08.83] spk_0:
I think it’s been rewarded

[00:21:10.53] spk_4:
mawr in

[00:21:11.51] spk_0:
the four profit.

[00:21:12.57] spk_4:
And that

[00:21:13.05] spk_0:
pushed more of that. That direction

[00:21:55.08] spk_4:
I think of what was Thea? What was the charity that was the warriors wounded a wounded warrior. Yeah, I had dug white on who wrote a book about the book called Wounded Charity. You know, they were doing extraordinary work, compensating people highly. The CEO was very highly paid over a $1,000,000 or something like this, which, compared to a lot of four profit salaries, is quite small. But but in our community, that’s that. You know, that was huge. And and they were, you know, you know this story of wounded warrior. Yeah. Yeah. They were doing great

[00:21:56.84] spk_3:
work and they had the outcomes

[00:22:40.68] spk_4:
to prove their success. But the the excesses I got a lot of press and that book wounded charity actually chronicles it very well. I’d like said I had the author Doug White on talk talking about it. But, you know, that was an example of of, ah, brilliant, successful, outcome driven charity. And they got, they got, they got beat up. Yep. So way tend to look, maybe at the draw a conclusion from that. But it was It’s certainly unfortunate, unfortunate case of ah, charity doing very good work. And now it remains as a shell of what it was. Yeah, I’m

[00:22:40.98] spk_0:

[00:22:42.11] spk_5:

[00:22:42.91] spk_3:
what do you what’s going on there

[00:22:44.15] spk_4:
at mercy project? We should give you a chance to explain what your what your work is.

[00:27:54.02] spk_0:
Yeah. So about 10 years ago, I read a book that talked about child trafficking in Ghana, Africa, and, you know, now trafficking human trafficking is a really hot button topic. Thankfully, it’s getting a lot of press. People are aware of some of the staggering statistics of modern day slavery and happening right here in America and across the world. 10 years ago, no one was talking about it I had no idea it wasn’t on my radar. No one I knew knew that there were slaves in the world and that people were still being trafficked. It really, really shocked my sensibilities. I mean, I I was When I first read the book, I was like, Hold on a minute. Is this really? I mean, I can’t even wrap my mind around this happening. And so we happen to be pregnant with our first baby at the time, my daughter Micah, and kind of holding those two things next to each other. We’re about to have this baby, and I’m I’ve got these enormous hopes and dreams for her life and what kind of life shall live and the opportunity she’ll have in all the ways I want to give her the world. And then I’m literally holding a book, talking about, you know, Children, traffic, and working 14 hours a day fishing, and I just the contrast of those two things. It was overwhelming, Frankly, and I Googled, the author of that book found her phone number colder, asked her if I could go to Africa with her. And three months later, I got out of a plane on the world in Ghana went out on the world’s largest man, made lake met these little boys and girls who were working all day as Fisher Boys and Fisher girls and and my heart was just broken. Came back to America, Remember just sitting on my couch, weeping and saying to my still pregnant wife, What? What kind of world is this? I mean, how do we How do we raise a child in this world? An ass car child to be kind and compassionate and generous, merciful? How do we ask her to be all those things and we’re not willing to be those things ourselves. When we see something that needs attention, I mean, what kind of people would we be? And so we kind of did what a lot of people do in a situation like that, Or I should say, a lot of what some people do in a situation. I got one of the more common responses, and that is we started raising money with the intention of giving it to somebody else who was gonna fix the problem, and then we could feel good about what we did and go on our way. And so we raised about $75,000 over nine months, just kind of a night and weekend hobby telling people about the Children and over that time, But I went back to Ghana two more times and discovered on those trips that it didn’t feel like anyone was really solving the problem in a way that was going to be forever. It didn’t feel like anyone was really getting at the root causes there was. There was people kind of buying the Children out of slavery. But then they were just giving the fisherman more money to go and buy more kids. I mean, there was no sustainable solution at all, and that was really bothersome to me. And so I knew we either needed just give our money and move on. And I feel like we at least did more than most people or I needed to quit my job, and we need to dedicate ourselves to trying to solve this problem in a in a way that really got at the root causes. So So we did that second when I quit my job in September 1st 2010 about 9.5 years ago, I started Mercy project. No idea what I was doing. No idea how to solve the problem. No idea why the problem existed, but a willingness to figure it out and to go to Ghana and learn from people and just be quiet and and and be a learner and really take that posture of understanding culturally, why it was happening in what could be done about it and so fast. Forward a bit. We’ve gone into these fishing communities that own the Children. The vast majority of the adults in these communities, by the way that owned the Children, were actually traffic Children themselves. So it’s a very vicious cycle, and we’ve taught them how to do aquaculture or cage fishing. So we’re able to grow about 10,000 tilapia in a huge cage, and we teach them how to do all of this and in trade for us showing them how to do this and giving in the capital for the cages. They voluntarily released the traffic Children back into their families of origin, So we rescued and reunited more than 160 Children back into their families. All of those kids are attending school now, and we’ve never had a child re traffic and in the fishing communities way have 15 fishing community partners, each one around 300 people. But our cages have actually increased the average family income by about 16% per family.

[00:27:58.69] spk_4:

[00:28:05.04] spk_0:
the fishing is much more efficient through the large aquiculture cages. And just a few men can do the work of many Children. So it’s really been a win win scenario for everybody

[00:28:11.64] spk_4:
Chris have brought. How big is the problem there? How many Children are trafficked on this on this lake owned by the fishing companies,

[00:28:32.58] spk_0:
they estimate 5 to 7000 Children that work as traffic Children, and it’s very small. Each one is there’s no like commercial fishing on the lake. You know, it’s just a guy out there fishing, so you could bring some food back for his family. You know, it’s very small scale,

[00:28:38.78] spk_4:
and they and they own these Children and they take them home with them.

[00:30:29.54] spk_0:
Yeah, they live in the fishing community with the deficient and most most all of the Children, with almost no exceptions, come from a single bomb, families where the husband has either died or left the woman and she has more Children than she can feed. And so our Children are literally starving and she can’t feed him all. She got 456 kids. And so she’ll send two of the Children off to work with the hope that it will let her get ahead so that she can go back and get the Children back. And with the promise from the fisherman, at least the Children will be able to have food every day. Which is Maur. You know more than they have when they’re living with the mom. And there’s a quote from a woman that is always stuck with me. And she wasn’t talking about Ghana. And she wasn’t talking about child trafficking, certainly. But there was there was a poem that she did, and her name probably gonna incorrectly burning, is worst in Worsen Shire Sires S H I. R E. And she was talking about refugees. But she had a line that she was born to Somali parents in Kenyan. She had this line that has never left me, and she says no one puts their child on a boat unless the water is safer than the land and that is so perfectly summarizes. The moms are Children find themselves in that They’re hoping against all reasonable hope that go. We’re at least the Children can have some food every day. We’ll be safer meaning Maur, you know, more predictable.

[00:30:33.14] spk_4:

[00:30:38.94] spk_0:
well, getting in there without any food so that I mean, that’s really disciplinary find ourselves and And what’s so complicated? So I’ll

[00:30:44.88] spk_4:

[00:31:24.64] spk_0:
because I bet you’re gonna ask this question next so I’ll get out in front of you. The reason we’ve never had a child re traffic is because you’ve got a very holistic process where we have social workers all around the country geographically place guinea and social workers. And we’re very involved in the life of the families. Once we re integrate the kids so were walking alongside each family, helping them understand how they’re making money, how they’re bleeding money, how they can save money on their budgeting, finding a better place to live that caused less money. We do microloan for the win. It’s appropriate to help you make more money and really, really believe in sustainability on a family by family basis. So that power, in a scenario where we’ve not had any Children re traffics.

[00:34:04.70] spk_4:
Okay. Thank you. Thanks for sharing, Chris. Yeah, I need to take another break. And when we come back, we’re gonna go back to the book. I’d like to hear the story of the day care center in a nursing home, so Ah, hang on. Uh, tell that. Think about it. Okay. Cougar Mountain software, Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s take two. I’m channeling you in this show in every show in every every episode. I am thinking about what small and midsize nonprofits need to know to succeed, whether it’s something related to fundraising or leadership or bored management or other volunteer management. Er, law, technology, you know, prospect research. You know, the gamut of topics recover. But what do you I want to know? Need to know about the topic. That’s what I have in mind when I’m looking for guests. evaluating guests that come to me, Thankfully, a lot about Do I get lucky that way? And when I decided, book a guest and talk to them, You know, What do you want to know? Need to know I’m channeling you. I trust that it’s succeeding because, uh, we got steady, steady, steady numbers, listeners. So I say a little more about this in, ah, my video, which you’ll find at tony tony-martignetti forgot my own domain. I’m so touched. I’m so moved. Yeah, I’m at tony-martignetti dot com, and that’s where the video is, too. And that is Tony’s Take two. Now let’s go back to be a disrupter. My guest is Crisfield, author of the book Disrupting for Good. So, Chris, would you share that story of the day care center in the nursing home? That disruptor?

[00:34:06.54] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s one of my favorite stories from the book.

[00:34:10.33] spk_4:
No, cool.

[00:37:26.03] spk_0:
I’ve gotten a chance over the last two years since I wrote the book, too, to give all over the country. Really. The story’s always tell because I love it So Seattle, Washington There’s a nursing home, a senior living center, and they bring a daycare and put it right in the middle of this nursing home. And so these residents, who are often lonely and you don’t have a ton of interaction with anyone other than one another during the day, are getting the chance to interact and hang out with the kid. And these kids whose parents are at work are getting a chance to hang out with these older residents. And something really amazing happened. I mean, yes, you know, a couple pictures that always put in my slide show on the big stage whenever I’m giving a speech, you know, it’s just straight picture of a little girl making a sandwich, a ham and cheese sandwich with this older gentleman. It’s a cute picture, but always say, What’s great is that this was so much more than a photo op. What ended up happening is that those residents in the senior living home that actually began to keep their memories longer because they were using their brains in a different way, and more consistently, when they were when they were interacting with the Children so much more frequently. And then the second thing that happened was the Children also benefited. The Children began to have reports from their parents coming back to the nursing home into the daycare facilitators, saying the Children were more empathetic, that they weren’t scared of people that were different than them, that they would walk right up to somebody in a wheelchair or with a walker or on crutches or a cane. Somebody with an oxygen tank they were carrying around, you know, little oxygen line to their nose. They weren’t scared of these people anymore. In fact, they felt really comfortable around him because they were spending time with him all day. And you have these older residents that are keeping their memory longer, reporting higher satisfaction of life. You get these young kids to a more empathetic. I mean, it’s a beautiful, beautiful vision of disruption and what’s funny and not in a good way. Frustrating really is a better word than funny. That this happened 25 years ago is when they started this project. His program you think about the number of nursing homes and day care have been built in America in the last 25 years. Thousands and almost none of them have followed model. In spite of its success. I think It’s a great reminder to me that just because something not being done doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done, because a lot of times we take the safer route we take the the route that is the path of least resistance. The road that’s the widest for the the road that has the most people walking down. And we just kind of follow along aimlessly instead of asking. Is this really the best road? And that’s what that story always reminds me is that there’s so, so much good that can come when we’re willing to ask some of those really hard questions.

[00:37:46.63] spk_4:
That’s a beautiful one. Um, it touched me, too. Ah, and the same frustration. What? Why? Why not? More of it. Um, what is that? Is that nursing home still still doing

[00:37:50.32] spk_3:
that program?

[00:38:29.70] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, let me remember the name. Mount Mount Saint Vince. And I know it’s in the book Mount ST Vincent. They called the Inter Generational Learning Dinner and a CZ. Far as I know, it’s still still in operation and, you know, still still going strong. Yeah, they call it, uh, child care at the mountain. It’s an inter generational learning center, located within Providence, Mount ST Vincent in West Seattle and 400 older adults that live in the in the resident and five days a week. The Children residents come together in a variety of planned activities. Music, dancing, aren’t lunch, storytelling or just visiting.

[00:38:37.15] spk_4:
So you’re on their incredible,

[00:38:39.36] spk_0:
really, really incredible

[00:38:40.57] spk_4:
You’re on their site. It sounds like you just looked it up. Yeah, yeah,

[00:38:43.25] spk_0:
I was just reading that

[00:38:44.01] spk_4:
off. The Web site

[00:38:46.52] spk_0:
confirm that it’s still still in business since I wrote about him in the book

[00:38:49.62] spk_4:

[00:38:53.71] spk_0:
If anybody’s up in that area, they should absolutely be Inter Generational Learning Center.

[00:39:45.57] spk_4:
Why, that isn’t an incubator for a ll the all the assisted living and nursing homes throughout the country. I mean, the image of, you know, 80 year olds, 90 year olds in wheelchairs chasing chasing I don’t know, 567 year olds around down the hall. It’s I think that’s the way you open the story. Um, yeah, I think it is, but yeah, I just love I love picturing that. I mean, I remember my mom, you know, a great place like that. And, uh, well, it was happy enough place. But there certainly wasn’t the joy of Children. And and the engagement that you’re describing that that has great outcomes for for the kids and and for the for the seniors. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Um,

[00:39:47.47] spk_3:
these are mostly most of stories

[00:39:56.58] spk_4:
in the book are sort of disruptors next door, you know, people that were not known, but to me, the most famous one. And I do know the guy you say in the book. You know, you probably don’t know who he is, but I have his two books. So why don’t we want to talk about Brandon Stanton?

[00:40:40.51] spk_0:
Yeah. Brandon Stanton. Which, if people I don’t know his name. They probably certainly have heard of humans of New York, which is a just incredibly successful community that Brandon Stanton has has Creative people aren’t familiar. They can easily go on to Facebook or Instagram. I think the last time I looked on on Facebook, the humans of New York Page had something like 18 million people who followed the page or

[00:40:42.15] spk_4:

[00:44:30.96] spk_0:
which is incredible. But you know what? He’s what Brandon did was we went out into New York, use a photographer, and he says his own words, he says. He was a mediocre photographer, but he wanted to document, just tell. Different people live their life. All this variety in New York and you have all these pockets of humanity that’s just really beautiful. The diversity and kind of the tapestry that makes New York New York and so what he wanted to do was the photos and basically with just different people from around the city. And so that project never really got off the ground as much as you know, he would have hoped. But what happened was as he began talking to people and asking them if you could take their photos, the vast majority of whom said no way, of course, and kept walking and at hurry New York pace. What happened was the one who said yes. As he began to talk to them and take their photo. They began to just share stories, and over time he got better at asking better questions and one of his common questions that elicited one of most powerful responses from people. If he would say What is your greatest struggle right now? And people began sharing these really intimate, vulnerable, difficult things with him. I mean, just really important about some of the hardest things happening in their life. And they felt real freedom, you know, in doing that with him because he was a stranger. And so he began documenting the story on a on a Facebook page publicly, and he wouldn’t always show the person’s face, especially if there was somebody who didn’t want their, you know, to be connected to their story with their own faith. But a lot of time he would show the face, you know, And the person would say, Sure, this is the truth. I don’t mind if you put it out there. And so what happened was that there was something about this vulnerability, something about the beauty of the the shared human experience, even in its pain, that just resonated deeply with people. And just almost overnight, this became a viral sensation. And, you know, Brandon stands suddenly had this massive a group of people following him that we’re just hungry for this authenticity, which I would argue all of us are so desperate for this kind of authenticity. We have relationships a mile wide and an inch deep, and we’re Maur socially connected than we’ve ever been before. And we’re also lonelier and more anxious and more depressed than we’ve ever been before because we have kinds of of balls or fake connection in very little real connection. And even though this was happening through a computer and people didn’t know these people in real life, they felt a shared human connection because the content was so wrong and it was so real. And so what I really loved about that story and where I really thought Brandon was a disruptor, is He saw an opportunity to tell stories in a fresh way that anyone with a camera and an Internet connection could have done years and years before him. But he figured out a way to do it in a way that really resonated with people and what I love most about him. You mentioned the two books. She put them books out. He’s a true humanitarian. I mean, he’s used to. He’s used his stage, if you will, his platform to lend his microphone to people without a voice and really and up for those who are being oppressed and marginalized and stepped on and again. The best analogy I can use in the best illustration. He used his microphone in his stage for people who don’t have a microphone. And I really love that part of his story because it just really feels beautiful and redemptive for him to do that on behalf of other people could never repay him.

[00:46:30.27] spk_4:
I’m not surprised that his story moves you because I think you’re doing very much the same thing. Telling stories of telling stories of everyday people you’re you’re choosing the Disruption Channel, but destruction theme and you don’t have pictures, But you’re telling stories of everyday people and in terms of, you know, using his voice in his power. I mean, I I see you doing that in your work through ah, through with mercy project. Um, thank you. I gotta take our last break. And when we come back, we got to start talking. We may go a little long this time, letting everybody know may go a little bit longer than the typical hour, but we got to start talking about how we got to get into how to become a disrupter. We’re gonna talk about map was hang on our last break turned to communications, their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news you need to be on top of so that you stay relevant in your community. Among the work that you are doing former journalists, including with the Chronicle of Philanthropy they’re at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time. We may go the long for Be a disrupter. Okay, Chris, uh, let’s zoom moved to the call to action part of the book. It’s not all moving stories. What is, uh, we can’t We can’t go into the detail of the book because people just got a by the book. I mean, that’s just a You got to get the book for the rich for the Ridge detail. We could just do an hour or so overview, but acquaint us with with map and maybe

[00:49:51.41] spk_0:
yeah, so it was really important to me that a not write a book that made everybody feel feel good but didn’t result in any sort of tangible action. I’m constantly saying talk less doom or talk, let’s do more. And I didn’t want to write a book where all I did was talk, but I didn’t empower people to go and do the doing because I think anyone hears the stories of Disruptors. Actually, before you and I got on this call, I spoke to a group of about 100 people here in my hometown, and I mean, they’re everyone’s like this is so inspiring on to be a part of this. I want to make a different thing. We all have that desire. So I really wanted to give people a framework for moving from how want to do something. I want to make a difference. I want to have more purpose and direction and persistent. I just don’t know how to do it. So I want to give them those tools. And so I created what I call the disruption map. You referenced it M a P. And here it’s really pretty straightforward, and I say it’s simple, but it’s not easy. And here’s what it hears what it requires, the first, the em of map dance for make a commitment. And this is where we have to be really honest with ourselves about those truths in our own life and our own families in our own non profit in our own community that make us uncomfortable. Things we know shouldn’t be the way they are things we no need to be better. We have to be really honest. We have to list all those out. I mean, we just gotta plow through and list all those out, even though it’s gonna be a long and an overwhelming list. What makes us uncomfortable? I could be simple stuff, tony. I mean, the thing is, we overthink this, but, you know, I mentioned before I’m a father of four young kids. One of my uncomfortable truth and parenting is that I’m on my phone too much, and I’ve got to be honest about that. I can’t just say Well, yeah, you know, I know I should probably use my phone last. You know, when I’m around, the kids never want them to feel like I’m not paying attention. But But here I am. Pull my phone out of my pocket checking email That doesn’t need to be checked. Checking Facebook. That doesn’t need to be checked. And so we all have those things to make us uncomfortable. Usually we just kind of shrug and say, Yeah, you know, Yeah, I guess that could be better. I know. I know. I could be more healthy or, you know, I know I could read. Maura, I know I need to do a better job following up with those donors. I get their donation, and then I don’t put him in a pipeline to follow up with them. And then when I have to go back to him next year, I realized I’m not talk to him for the last 12 money. We all have those things personally and professionally. So the first step, we make your commitment that we’re gonna we’re gonna write those things down, We’re gonna own him. We’re gonna embrace them. We’re gonna ride him down. There’s power in naming those things, not leaving him out in the universe out there, but actually writing them down. We gotta deal with it when it’s in front of us. And so we write it down. The second step is the A the action plan. And that is we choose one of those things. I think we should only choose one at a time, because otherwise we’re gonna get overwhelmed and not do it. We choose one of those things that matters to us. And we say, What is something I can do today, tomorrow, next week, next month in the next three months to change this uncomfortable truth into a new and better truth. And I like the smart goals, which is not my thing. I can’t take credit for this

[00:49:58.14] spk_4:

[00:50:14.52] spk_0:
ago gold setting program that basically gives you How do we set goals that are actually achievable? And so, uh, correct me if I miss one of these, Uh, but it’s gold. The smart chance for specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timely

[00:50:16.81] spk_4:
time. Time bound.

[00:52:59.82] spk_0:
Yeah, time bounce. That means let me let me use my own example. Say I’m uncomfortable. But how much time on my phone? A terrible action step would be. I’m going to use my phone lead when I’m with my kids. Right? There’s no way we’re gonna ever fulfill that action step because we don’t even know what that means. What does less mean? I guess we could check our iPhone usage, but most of us aren’t gonna do that. So a much better goal would be something like this. When I get off work, I’m gonna plug my phone in my room and not check it again until the kids have gone to bed. No, that is specific. It’s measurable. It’s attainable. It’s relevant and it’s time bound. That’s an everyday going. So every day I can say, Did I do that thing I said I was gonna do yes or no. And 11 of two things is gonna happen. I’m gonna do it. And kudos to me. Now move on to the next thing or I’m gonna realize I like the idea of putting my phone away more than I actually like putting my phone away. And then I’m gonna have to deal with something else. What is? Am I addicted to my phone? Am I addicted to the control or the power that perceived power that comes from having my phone like, Is there something else bigger here? But I’ll never even get to that. If I don’t have a smart goal, it’s actionable, and that’s something I could do today. I mean, somebody listening today can go out. Shoot. I definitely am on my phone too much with my kids around. I can today plug my phone in my room and then we could okay this week I’m gonna go one day every weekend where I don’t even turn my phone on and we all go possible, right? Like it’s who can possibly do that. Well, I mean, we all could 20 years ago and all of our parents could, in all of our grandparent’s absolutely good. I mean, you know, it’s possible, but we can say, Did I do that? It’s an easy yes or no. And so you mentioned earlier tony about changing. We have the power to change, and I can’t take credit for this statement. But one of the most profound statement I’ve ever heard it. We change it or we choose it. And when there’s something we don’t like, like being on our phones, too much of their kids or not following up with her donors or not being healthy or not exercising, whatever that thing is when we know we don’t like it. But we don’t change it, we’re choosing it, and that is very different than feeling like, well, it’s just it’s just what happens. No, no, no, no. We’re choosing it.

[00:53:01.43] spk_4:

[00:53:30.58] spk_0:
choosing it or we’re changing in the action. Steps really require us to be honest. Like do we want to choose that thing we know we don’t like. Or do we want to change it because that’s the only two options that we either change it or we choose it. And so I don’t even have that language in my book because that’s something I’ve just discovered in last year, too. And I always use that line in my keynote, and I’m always watching people scram, scram, scribbled down, you know, because it’s profound to think about the life in that way. So we have the action step, and then the last letter

[00:53:34.97] spk_4:
You persist

[00:55:29.81] spk_0:
on map, and that’s for persistence. And I really came to both love and hate the truth that the one commonality I could find among every disruptor I identified. It was not their age. Like you said, 5 to 77 was not their education. It was not their money. It was not their acts testimony. It wasn’t the country they lived in. It was the only thing that bound them. The only thing that tied them together was their willingness to persist, and that means they didn’t show up one day and disrupt. They chose day after day after day that what they wanted to disrupt. The truth that made them uncomfortable was worth showing up day after day after day in doing something about. And I firmly believe that when you show up hundreds and thousands of days in a row with the same desire to change an uncomfortable truth into something new and better, that’s where the transformation happens. So I’ve joked that if I wrote another book right now, I would call it a persistent but not so secret sauce to transformation because the truth is it’s just hard to percent. I mean, it’s just hard to show up every day and remember what fake? But that’s what we have to do. That’s what differentiates people who like the idea of disruption with people who actually disrupt. That’s the one difference year. Everyone listening to this podcast to a person I would bet everything I own if they care enough about something to show up every day, remembering why they want to do something about it and what the state they will absolutely, uh, have transformation. They will experience transpiration that saying will become better from the uncomfortable truth. But so many people will not keep persisting because It’s hard. It’s just hard. And so we gotta own that. We got embrace it. If it was easy, we would have already done it. If it were easy, it would be uncomfortable. Truth. It would have been something we already dealt with. But it’s not easy. And that’s why we have to persist. So that’s the M A p of persistence that anybody anywhere can follow to become a disrupter.

[00:56:02.81] spk_4:
Excellent. Chris. I let you just go. Usually. Usually I’m more conversational. But I wanted you. I No, no, no. I you know, uh, had my consent. I wanted you to just go listen, Okay, We’re gonna wrap up, but I want to wrap up with I want you to repeat the two definitions you have for what a disruptor is.

[00:56:46.89] spk_0:
Great. So the first definition of disruptor, Someone who is uncomfortable with the truth. So they show up, take action and persist until a new and better truth is born. And the second definition of a disruptor is someone who dismantled accepted norms and forge is unimagined futures.

[00:57:22.23] spk_4:
That’s outstanding. I love the forges unimagined futures. You’re you’re, uh you’re quite a guy. I’m a move. I’m sort of in Aw, all right, Crisfield. His book is disrupting for good, using passion and persistence to create lasting change. Just get the damn book, for God’s sake, this is it. You’ll find his work Mercy Project at Mercy project dot net. You’ll find Chris at meat, Crisfield dot com and at disruption. Chris Chris Field Thank you so much. Thank you.

[00:57:25.46] spk_0:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I enjoyed it. Thanks for everything you do for non profit leaders.

[00:57:50.64] spk_4:
Uh, what? Yeah, What an outstanding way too close. Are our innovators Siris next week? Heather? Yeah, Nando with five questions to ask before hiring a consultant. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:57:56.30] spk_3:
coca Mapping

[00:58:15.32] spk_4:
Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot C E o ah!

[00:58:58.66] spk_3:
Creative producer is clear. Myer off. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. We just started the music a little late, but that’s all right. I’ll take it off the studio Feed shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York You’re with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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[00:00:55.57] spk_0:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. The 2020 non profit Technology Conference. As you know, the conference had to be canceled, but we are persevering virtually throughout through Zoom were sponsored at 20 and T C by Cougar Mountain Software Benali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Manton for a free trial with me now our Susan Comfort and Mo Abdullah. Susan is founder at non profit Wellness and Mo is founder of culture. Energized Susan. No. Welcome.

[00:00:57.27] spk_3:
Thank you

[00:00:57.70] spk_4:
for having us.

[00:01:43.84] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks for working this out virtually. Um and I know that you’re each well and safe Susan in D. C. And Mo in Denver. I’m glad to know that everybody’s well and families were good. Um, your mom, your NTC topic was team care, not self care, building resilience, resiliency in an era of burnout. But we’re gonna convert this into, ah, special episode of non profit radio and thank you for your willingness to do that. So I’m gonna get it out quicker to our audience. And, uh, we’re gonna talk about team care in the era of Corona virus pandemic. Um, mothers there. Why don’t you get us started? I mean, we can, in fact keep the team together, keep the team energized and efficient and functioning well, even though our work lives, Air totally upended.

[00:02:35.67] spk_4:
Yeah, it can be done, but it takes intentionality, right? So and also understanding that it’s going to look different. So it can’t be business as usual when we moved to remote working. Let’s understand that there’s kids at home, right that need homeschooling that, um, talk about acceptability. And does everyone have Internet but then would have access to a computer to do meetings? So if you just say all right and what was really working from home and don’t put intentional, inclusive practice, this is in place. That’s what makes it a little bit more challenging, but it can be done. There

[00:02:40.41] spk_3:
are a

[00:02:40.50] spk_4:
lot of businesses that are doing it carefully and have been doing it successfully for a really long time.

[00:03:05.24] spk_0:
Susan is revealing that they’re not only Children at home, but they’re also pets. I’ve been doing off almost 30 of these interviews. I’ve had, uh, had a child walked by, thankfully clothed, but I’m ready for the naked. I’m ready for the naked two year old coming across the screen in minutes. You know,

[00:03:05.58] spk_3:
we’re ready to

[00:03:06.66] spk_0:
do enough of these, and it’s bound to happen

[00:03:38.24] spk_3:
from podcast of video right away. I agree with with Milo that it takes intentionality to build team when team can’t be together. And frankly, nonprofits have dealt with this for a long time with distributed workforces. When nonprofits have folks strewn across the country of the world when nonprofits can’t afford, um, expensive office space anymore, they go, Virtual said. Non profits have actually been pioneering this kind of team building in a way, because we’re always low budget, we’re always scrapping. Girl is traveling for far flung, um, creations have had to figure it out, of course, to and governments. But the nonprofit sector is sort of uniquely suited to figure this out.

[00:04:19.24] spk_0:
We’re recording on Wednesday, April 1st, so I’m gonna assume that organizations have already figured out the Internet access problem. You know, if there were people who didn’t have Internet access, I’m gonna assume by now that they do. But there could still be a mo was saying there. Ah, that could still be technology issues even going even now, three weeks into, um, being at home. Do you think or are we? Are We passed the technology issues, too?

[00:06:32.24] spk_3:
There are always gonna be technology issues, right? And I think, what Low and I moan I met when we worked for Play Works, which is a recess organization working most of the kids in schools. But what we learned is that the social emotional capability or the emotional intelligence that people have is really nurtured interactively through personal person contact. That does not have to mean touching contact that could mean words that are expressed, you know, spoken or written, or even a high five, you know, or an elbow bump or a cheer were, You know these things don’t have to happen in person. So when you think about team care and the importance of sure everybody has to take care of their cells, But in the nonprofit sector, we’re really bad at taking care of ourselves. We’re really good at taking care of other people or the world over not so good at taking care of ourselves. So telling a non profit worker that they need to up their self care is not gonna be ineffective strategy figuring out how we can systemically create tools and systems that effect team care where we can all take care of each other. That’s what’s gonna be the game changer for non profits, because it will encourage our own self care, hold accountability to others and build the team in the process. Because you know what happens when we talk about wellness, we make ourselves vulnerable. I’m telling you what’s going on with my body or my mental health, and that makes me vulnerable in some way. I can keep myself safe, but it’s still telling you what’s going on with my body was just personal. So if I’m making myself vulnerable, what bring a Brown says is that then inspires empathy. Because you have a body, you understand, you know what I could be going through and then that builds. Trust on what most workplaces are challenged by is a lack of trust, and so if you can figure out howto build trust, then you’ll have better automatically team care because you’ll give each other the benefit of the doubt. You’ll trust each other to have each other’s back. You’ll know that most doing the best she can, etcetera, but you’re it’s not gonna have that trust if everyone is off fighting their own battles in their own little zoom worlds or computer boxes.

[00:07:08.75] spk_0:
All right, so, Moe, why don’t we, uh why don’t you get us started with some intentionality around team care? You both have talked about the intentionality. Let’s get into some details that people can raise as discussion items in there are in in there. I was gonna stay in their offices in their in their meetings, Or they can implement themselves if they’re if they’re the CEO. You know what started with some concrete ideas, please?

[00:08:01.34] spk_4:
Yeah, well, I think one of the first things to recognize is that communication is going to look different, right? When you’re in person, personal person conversations, you can read body language. You can see it was really stressed out. But overall computer screen, that’s really, really challenging to do so. One of the first things you have to do is you have to set the New Lord. Um, and one of those norms should be around respecting boundaries, allowing, uh, you’re always to block out, um, parts of their calendar to get done. So maybe they block out stuff on the calendar saying, I’m gonna be home schooling my kids or I need to take a walk during this time and respecting those boundaries. Another thing is sending a gnome around. How many meetings did people have per day when we start moving to remorse? Working Everyone was over. Communicate. Everyone’s meeting is super duper important. But then you end up having people sitting down for 4 to 5 hours, meeting after meeting after meeting and after two. You’re really no longer productive. So really setting some boundaries around how many meetings were having and respecting people’s of boundaries as faras blocking out time.

[00:08:34.14] spk_0:
Why don’t we feel, what with this question, why do we feel like we need to have more meetings when were distributed just because we’re no longer physically close? So we were trying to compensate. So now all of a sudden, we gotta have meetings with people, you know. We used to just meet monthly or weekly. Now we gotta meet Ellie is it will be overcome

[00:08:47.18] spk_3:
and singing

[00:08:48.88] spk_4:
a lot of people. It’s a trust thing, right? Like if I don’t see you, how do I know that you’re working? Um, we need to have meetings. A lot of people think that

[00:08:57.29] spk_3:

[00:08:57.64] spk_4:
would communicate right is being able to see someone face to face. But the cool thing about remote working is that there’s things that exist, like flak, using chat, using email’s on and also understanding what our meetings for right. If it’s just to tell people stuff, it’s just big enough mint. You can do that. I’m a different platform. Meeting should be around creating discussion accident questions until knowing that religion a point you’re making. What, What is the purpose of meetings? Who are we having it? Um, you know, just keeping get at a decent time. So we don’t want to be having meetings for two hours. Every meeting. Some evenings are just for 30 minutes with the central people, and sometimes it’s a larger discussion that you need tohave, which make a little bit longer

[00:09:52.84] spk_0:
motion. One of those boundaries include the use of texting while we’re all remote, like texting is forbidden. Nor is only for emergencies or something of that are you?

[00:09:58.24] spk_3:
Let me be a cultural thing. That’s not something that one person can dictate what the Norma’s like. That’s gonna be a culture for every we get a lot of culture right Culture energizes most company finds about building a culture of well being. The culture is different everywhere. It’s just the way things are done here, right? So if texting is part of your normal work culture, it should be now as well. But we can’t say what the boundaries should be for any workplace, because that’s up to the workplace to set. But the the actual process of creating those boundaries is a perfect way to build trust. So what you just said, tony, is what the boss should be asking their employees. They should say, Hey, you know, while we’re on this Corona virus worked from home rotation, should we be texting? And then his employees will say, Hell, no or please yes or whatever. But the point is that we’re talking about our presence is we’re talking about our limitations, and we’re deciding as a group what that culture should be. Not the boss listening to this non profit radio podcast and saying more, Susan said we shouldn’t tax or we should definitely just depends on with it.

[00:11:06.90] spk_0:
I was trying to box you in, put you in an awkward position. I just did. And you, uh, you got out. Okay, That was my

[00:11:12.69] spk_3:
concrete things folks could do to that. Okay, even when we’re not in crisis.

[00:11:17.33] spk_0:
All right, go ahead. Well, let’s stick with the current. Uh, let’s try to keep it relevant. Oh, the crisis that we are. Okay, What else? What else have you got? Susan,

[00:11:26.54] spk_3:
The important thing is again. It’s not that we should never talk about self care. It’s that we should talk about it within the context of we’re gonna support each other. So what I like to say and behind me is even is that red and blue makes purple. Like when we talk about physical health and mental health.

[00:11:42.60] spk_0:
Now wait, Susan, everybody, everybody is not going to see the video.

[00:11:46.59] spk_3:
But this way is when you, when you talk about

[00:11:48.82] spk_0:
physician, described it

[00:13:18.12] spk_3:
mental health. Then that creates team health. Because, like I said, we make ourselves vulnerable. So if we just ask each other, not just how are you doing or what’s getting in the way, but like focused action initiative answers or questions like, How are you taking care of your mental health or what do you do that works to get you moving during the day. And if workers team members answer these questions with each other, you magical things happen right once. One, they’re focused on action on non things that work. It’s got appreciative inquiry. What’s working about right now? You can keep that going more easily than starting anew. Habit. Appreciative inquiry. Sharing about yourself like, Hey, I like to go from a TRO. Walks. Well, maybe there’s somebody else on the team that likes to go for nature walks. Well, then you could schedule your next call on a nature walk you over there and your team member over there. Maybe there’s somebody who likes to ride bikes. Well, now you know who to go to when you need a new bike shop, right? You find out all of these similarities about how people take care of themselves, and that builds that trust. And Moe was just talking about We have all these dumb meetings and we were already bad of meetings and nonprofits to begin with. Now we’re having done long meetings online. This is a terrible situation, but it’s because we’re not trusting that people are working. But if we can build the trust so that folks have authentic communication with each other. No, I’m not gonna be at that meeting is after home school my kids. But I will be online for two hours after bedtime to get your memo done right. They’re with honesty and with of compassion.

[00:13:43.88] spk_0:
Yeah, mo this this idea of vulnerability building trust it’s This has come up in a couple of NTC conversations that I’ve had people feel that being vulnerable makes is a sign of weakness. You’re you’re revealing some flaw or fall to our shortcoming that you’ve got. But it’s I think it’s 100 degrees from that. Being vulnerable is a sign of strength.

[00:14:50.90] spk_4:
Exactly, you know, in it And it it’s so powerful when leadership does it first right. You allow people to be able to make mistakes and follow your lead. And so as a leader, one of the first things if you haven’t already done it already do a team building exercise. And in that people the exercise understand how the people like to be communicated towards and as a leader also share some of the challenges that you have and also some of the things that worked really well for you and allow your team to follow the lead. So I know for me when it comes to meetings, one signals past, like, 40 minutes. I need to be able to take a break like it’s gonna be really, really tough for me and for other people, it could be, Hey, I am really shy and speaking up. Even though that might be a group norm to speak up, that might be really challenging for me to do that. Is it okay if we can utilize the chat box? Um, at some point, doing during our meeting and just creating a little bit more dialogue and getting people comfortable because once everyone knows how you communicate in the communication is going to be 10 times better and you’re not gonna get mad at people because

[00:15:06.37] spk_3:

[00:15:06.56] spk_4:
were so that they are, you know, not replying to emails or not speaking up for not being engaged. Instead, you can have a little bit more empathy and be able to move.

[00:15:18.42] spk_0:
Is there a team building exercise? You can suggest you can explain in just a couple of minutes.

[00:15:25.52] spk_4:
Yeah. Um, you can go on Google this thing called the leadership company

[00:15:30.79] spk_0:
Leadership Leadership Compass.

[00:15:32.84] spk_4:
Yeah, there’s a leadership compass, which

[00:15:34.95] spk_0:
is kind of

[00:16:03.57] spk_4:
like How do you take lead their people that need a lot of information? They’re more technological. They, like details, is looking better. Our creative thinkers. And so you do have a discussion with your team around where you follow on the leadership compass, Um, kind of one of the strengths and weaknesses of that. And then in the stroke of your work, what does that mean for for meetings or for one on one time, we’re getting things done. So that’s what Do you have siblings?

[00:16:05.72] spk_3:
Yeah, Thanks. On my website non profit comfort dot com, I have a whole page of icebreakers that don’t suck that I like to facilitate. Moe knows

[00:16:15.69] spk_0:
that the most you can say about them is that they don’t suck. Is that this longest endorsement? You can

[00:16:20.20] spk_3:
hear you if you really want. One of my favorite icebreaker is a check in question. It’s very simple. You don’t need any equipment. You don’t need any prep. They could be short. That could be long. They could be deep. That could be fun. Checking questions beginning of a meeting house. People build familiarity and commonalities and therefore trust

[00:16:37.08] spk_0:
like what’s an example of what’s example of a checking question

[00:17:21.41] spk_3:
Check in question Could be. What did you do to support your physical health today? Something really is. You know, people can share as much or as little as they want. It could be. What superhero would you be or what’s your superpower? What tattoo do you have or what’s a country you wanted is It could be any of those things, but I like focusing them on wellness because then again, people are making themselves vulnerable. They’re finding commonalities, and they can build more team support that way. So they’re icebreakers you can do and you can’t even focus them around wellness or someone care or diversity or inclusion or any topic you want. It’s the structure of the ice breaker that people get stuck on. And that’s where, like most said, you know, if you just try some or read Cem overviews and then make it your own or make your make the topic or the subject matter your own, you can really use the structure of the ice breaker to get people out of their comfort zone and get some new ways and relating in new ways.

[00:17:37.23] spk_0:
Okay, Okay, Susan, let’s stay with you. Other ideas that, uh, folks can implement while we’re in this roaring in the midst, This

[00:18:47.84] spk_3:
this is a more advanced one. And so I would only say this for teams that have already started down the road of diversity afternoon inclusion work like the work that motives. So we have. Ah, we developed a thing called a stressor scorecard, which is basically a list of identities and circumstances in life that brings stress. So some of them are identities, like being woman or being a person of color. Being a member of the LGBT community as a circumstance stressor might be, I’m going through a divorce or have a food intolerance or I have a terrible commute, right self circumstance that could change. But when we go through these circumstances or we have these identities that bring us stress in life, it’s important to realize it ourselves and also share that with each other in some way. So the stressor scorecard is a little bit of, um away to spark discussion. It can be a simple eyes like what is your score or what causes you stress where it could be a deeper discussion. Like Why do these things cause of stress? And how can we support each other? Because this is the stress we bring to the office. It’s not the stress that we experience it work from deadlines and too much work or even changing the world, which with no profit Cesaire already stressful jobs, world changing jobs, right? We’re talking about the stress that you bring

[00:19:09.09] spk_0:
with you. Where is there? Someplace just on. I realized this little more things further along group, but but we may as well just pursue it just to get the resource with stressor. Scorecard. Does it exist somewhere?

[00:19:16.04] spk_3:
It’s on my Web site. Non profit comfort dot com.

[00:19:23.17] spk_0:
Okay, okay, let’s bring it back to the more basic, though, Uh, you got another. Another tip for team team care.

[00:19:55.49] spk_3:
There’s so many. I think that the important thing is that you figure out a system for keeping it up like we’re in crisis right now because we’re in the midst of a cove, it state shelter, home place that is going to pass at some point and we’re gonna be back in some sort of new normal. Yes, the world will have changed fundamentally, but we’re gonna go back to some sort of new normal, And we need to figure out what systems changed more permanently. So, for example, workplaces should have some sort of committee or task force that’s focused on culture or wellness or health. And if you don’t have one yet, you should create one. It’s easy. It’s free. You can put a budget on it or just reallocate some of your budget for food or retreats or meetings to that group and the naked detect decide what the snacks are. They can decide. Um, you know what to do. It retreats or what? The wellness

[00:20:28.59] spk_0:
well, or what? To be what it is now. Yeah, well, or we could all have a common treat. Maybe, uh, you know, everybody brings their favorite cookie or something. All right, we got it

[00:20:34.85] spk_3:
yourself. You

[00:20:35.11] spk_0:
gotta gotta wrap it up. No, I’m gonna give you the closing words a little. Ah, little more encouragement, Mo.

[00:21:40.03] spk_4:
Yeah, I think, uh, end with keep the positivity going, but you have to build in a lot of different practices to keep positivity, Whether that is having shout out as part of your normal routine when you get on there having ice burgers, Um, just keep the positivity going just because it is a very, very stressful time. And so if you’re not building in those positive practices, a lot of times, you’re not gonna know when your team is feeling stressed out. It was they’re stressed out. That’s gonna lower productivity on and just make the working experience, you know, kind of dreadful. So, manager of a group of people working those practices, not every time that you need to meet face to face, but it doesn’t always have to be works. It could be a simple Hey, I saw you have 10 minutes on the calendar. Let me check in with you. How you doing today? Um, one thing that I just But I just learned that you do make sure you’re practicing wellness. So having, um, work related communications with also having personal check ins, I think it’s gonna be really impactful and keeping us all light and energized as you move through this crisis.

[00:21:59.02] spk_0:
All right. Thank you. That’s more. Abdullah, founder of culture, energized and with our Susan Comfort founder of non profit Wellness. I want to thank both of you. Thanks so much for sharing. And we’re gonna get this out shortly. Week or no more than two weeks. A special episode. So mode, Susan, thank you very, very much. Thank you. Stay safe.

Special Episode: Coronavirus & Leadership

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Lorraine Gordon & Catherine Hyde: Coronavirus & Leadership
Listen with compassion. Trust. Be vulnerable. Leaders, bring your heart and your curiosity forward and you can overcome any team challenge. Even today’s. My guests are Lorraine Gordon, principal at Lead With Heart, and Catherine Hyde, senior director of digital engagement for Enterprise Community Partners. (Part of our virtual #20NTC coverage)




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Transcript for 484a_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200413.mp3

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[00:00:42.37] spk_2:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit Technology Conference. Of course, the conference had to be canceled, but we are persevering. Virtually Vie Zoom sponsored a 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant her mountain for a free 60 day trial. My guest now are Lorraine Gordon and Katherine Hide. Lorraine is principal at lead with heart, and Catherine is senior director of digital engagement at Enterprise Community Partners. The Rain and Catherine. Welcome to our coverage of 20 ntc.

[00:01:00.90] spk_3:
Thank you Were thrilled to be here.

[00:01:04.67] spk_5:

[00:01:04.91] spk_2:
very glad it worked out. And I’m glad to know that each of you is well and safe on in Maryland around the Baltimore area.

[00:01:12.84] spk_5:

[00:01:14.24] spk_6:
let’s get started with you,

[00:01:27.70] spk_2:
Lorraine. What? You’re you’re NTC topic is this situation calls for leadership. Uh, what What do I do now? Yeah. Now? Yeah. Now what do I do? Um what What is it that ah, the two of you want to bring to the leadership conversation?

[00:01:33.66] spk_6:
Well, when we plan to present at the conference it was What do you

[00:01:38.65] spk_0:
do when you’re in a situation when you haven’t upset, you have a disruption. You have something that happens whether it’s trust or a project is jeopardized or

[00:01:49.87] spk_6:
something where you need to defuse,

[00:01:51.74] spk_0:
um, the tension or the upset. Um, and

[00:02:17.04] spk_6:
this is a prime one we’ve got at the Corona virus way. Could have never planned for this, right, Catherine? No. Our recession is about how do you bring your heart and curiosity to self a team challenge? You know how you show up in that? What kind of insights you bring? Um, so we’re gonna talk about that. And cancer is

[00:02:18.34] spk_0:
gonna share a little bit about the learning objectives of what we hope to accomplish in that.

[00:02:23.74] spk_2:
Okay. You wanna You wanna state the objectives, Catherine, before we get it?

[00:02:27.28] spk_3:
Sure. I would be happy to heart

[00:02:29.62] spk_2:
and curiosity before we get there.

[00:02:52.08] spk_3:
Yes, absolutely. So we had three learning objectives here. One is to build your leadership awareness. That is just your understanding of off. What are the components of leadership and how do you bring them? Forward and ah, hint. It’s got a lot to do with heart and curiosity. So the other the 2nd 1 is to reflect on the barriers to high performance, what’s getting in the way when the when the team isn’t functioning. And one of the things we wanna underscores that leadership is something that could be done by anybody. At any level. Any member of the team can step up and take help, present a healthier way for the team dynamic to move forward. And

[00:03:15.92] spk_4:
then we’re gonna help

[00:03:21.14] spk_3:
you lead leverage, some tools and approaches that would, um, help defuse some of the conflict that might arise. And certainly some of the tensions that teams have, especially when they’re working remotely and they don’t have each other to bounce off of in person.

[00:03:42.33] spk_2:
Okay, let’s stay with you. And, uh, heart and curiosity are not words that are typically associated with leadership. But you’re you’re opening things up. So, uh, star expand our thinking. What, what? What’s the role of heart and curiosity and leadership?

[00:04:27.84] spk_3:
Well, if any of you are familiar with Renee Brown, she speaks about vulnerability and how important that is to leadership. And that is your heart. Bringing your yourself your whole self, allowing your team to bring their whole self, and we’ll talk more about this later. But the idea of how to listen with compassion and how to speak with clarity and the curiosity comes from this approach that we don’t have all the answers. We don’t know all the background. So coming at this coming at any situation, whether it’s conflict, attention or otherwise with your curiosity, is a way to break through some of the barriers.

[00:04:31.41] spk_2:
Okay, vulnerability is, uh, it’s a good adjective.

[00:04:35.12] spk_5:
I like I I admire

[00:05:35.57] spk_2:
people who clearly are are vulnerable. Um, I think a good example of that in leadership is Amy Sample Wards. You know that I’m actually I’m getting a little teary eyed just thinking about it, because she’s tearful in the video that she made you confined in it and 10 dot org’s and go to the fall of the 20 NTC Conference links. You’ll see the cancellation video that where she announced the cancellation and, uh, was made even made, and 10 and 10 vulnerable by saying this is 62%. This conference is 62% of our revenue, and we’re not only losing the revenue from the from the registrations, but we have incurred enormous penalties for the broken contracts with food vendors and signed vendors and all kinds of So she was not only vulnerable on a personal level, but on her organizational level two. And you know, you see her and you see in that video wiping tears at least once, maybe twice. Um, I just thought that that was a great example of what it occurred to me when you said the word vulnerable. I absolutely want that video there

[00:06:04.70] spk_3:
was There was one conference I was at. I mean, Amy is an excellent example of a vulnerable leader and a leader who comes with curiosity and and heart. I remember there was one conference where you could actually get a button that said I made a me cry because she wants to hear your story and she’s there with you in such a re away. So it’s an excellent example. Tony

[00:06:12.47] spk_2:
that arose out at a conference.

[00:06:16.52] spk_3:
They were buttons for your bling. You know, there

[00:06:18.98] spk_4:
was a button there that said I made a me crow. Okay, what do you want

[00:06:22.85] spk_0:
to add? Please, Tonto. But, um um, vulnerability is like a key competency for leaders. It makesem humane. It creates a bridge of trust it says, I’m in this with you. Um, it’s where leaders have an opportunity to really dig deep when it comes to emotional intelligence, which so many studies have been shown to demonstrate that leaders who have strong Q our leaders who are far more productive on all kinds of levels, generating revenue, bringing teams together, creating wonderful

[00:07:00.12] spk_6:
cultures. Um, but vulnerability could be a little scary. It’s scary if you are not vulnerable personally and

[00:07:07.64] spk_0:
your personal relationships. It’s hard to do that at work, you know, because there’s so much we we cover up, and essentially, what we’re covering up is our heart. But that’s the very thing we want. Thio sort of open up

[00:07:19.29] spk_6:
a bit and connect with others, but we all have it. We all have a heart, and we’re all looking for an opportunity to connect. And it’s a powerful tool

[00:07:27.93] spk_0:
being able to lead with heart when you can do that. So

[00:07:32.07] spk_6:
this is a situation that certainly calls for it right now because we’re vulnerable on so many levels of safety and health and well being.

[00:07:41.42] spk_0:
And we were thinking about our families, our communities, our neighbors, our workplaces. So

[00:07:47.69] spk_6:
whether we want to be vulnerable

[00:07:49.32] spk_0:
were at least inching toward that space. Whether we want to or not. You know, I think

[00:07:55.42] spk_2:
there’s so much thinking that, uh, misplaced that that showing vulnerability is a sign of weakness.

[00:08:03.32] spk_4:
I think it’s just the opposite. I think

[00:08:05.78] spk_2:
someone who’s vulnerable is is showing, exuding confidence and strength, actually, that they can open themselves up that way. I

[00:08:13.80] spk_4:
think it’s

[00:08:16.13] spk_2:
a sign of enormous. It’s confidence and strength. Yeah, yeah,

[00:08:18.08] spk_6:
you’re right, you’re right. And as a leader, I have had my best

[00:08:57.72] spk_0:
relationships with leaders who have been vulnerable with me, and when that has happened, I give them my very best. I give them so much more than I would, a leader who really is just trying to just tap whatever you know, not tapping my full self. And so as a leader, I’ve I’ve aimed to do that to, to really bring my full self in my vulnerability and the sense of trust, which is one of things we’re gonna talk about trust being a real bedrock in all of this trust and vulnerability. When you’re in a situation of disruption, so it changes, it changes us. It changes the people around us. It

[00:09:01.33] spk_6:
can actually change the whole vibe in a room. As a facilitator, I’ve seen it happen. I call it sort of dropping the water line when somebody is vulnerable and they drop that water line, you can feel

[00:09:14.33] spk_0:
the shift inside the room and it’s palpable. So

[00:09:17.25] spk_6:
it’s a powerful tool.

[00:09:18.24] spk_0:
And I Catherine, I would just invite leaders to go there.

[00:09:21.59] spk_3:
Yeah, yeah, and it breeds vulnerability. If you can bring your whole self as a leader, it allows your team to bring their whole cells, and it generates an incredible amount of loyalty and willingness to go above and beyond.

[00:10:34.05] spk_2:
Yeah, I’m going to recommend someone to you and and a book that I just I interviewed him and I do so many shows. I can’t remember if if this show has gone live yet, but his name is Jamie Bursts, but it’s spelt like hearse with a B. So Jamie B E A R S e. He’s the CEO of zero, the end of prostate cancer on they have an organizational culture there, Which is which is what his, um Oh, you know, I don’t He hasn’t written a book on this. It’s just No, I’m sorry. I interview a lot of authors to. He hasn’t written a book on organizational culture, but the culture that he’s created at at zero, which is a pretty large organization, 25 or 30 employees or something like that is exactly in line with what you’re describing. You’ll you’ll be interested in. I regrettably, the only resource I know where he talked about organizational culture is my show, so but I’m

[00:10:46.25] spk_4:
not trying to get more people. Listen t o. And he has,

[00:11:19.64] spk_2:
um, they show up with, um hh bedrocks of the culture. HHS Um, humility, Is it humility? Hunger? Yes. Not honestly. They’re honest people, but it’s humility, hunger, and I can’t run with the esses. I don’t want to miss quarter, but HHS bedrock of And they have some medical, um, vulnerability in trust so that they

[00:11:20.16] spk_4:
trust each

[00:11:56.74] spk_2:
other to be vulnerable. They open up their meetings with they spend five minutes going around the room, putting a spotlight on someone else who exhibited either HHS. This humiliation is ability, hunger and smarts, man. Shoot. But you put the spotlight on someone else, you go following someone else. Um, thinking like, um silence is dissent. When the leader says, When the leader, whoever’s leaving that meeting says, you know, are we ready to go on? Everyone has to affirmatively Yes, yes, and one who’s quiet then that’s assumed to be descent. And they’re asked, Are you ready? Or do you have an objection? You know, So they want everyone affirmatively agreeing to move to the next topic or think or things like that. I think that. Anyway, um, we’re here to learn from you, but you’ll be in

[00:12:17.91] spk_0:
No, that’s good. That’s a great story. Is the

[00:12:33.39] spk_2:
culture at zero? Um, and a lot of what you’re saying is reminding me about my conversation with Jamie Bursts. Um what about What about trust? Lorraine? You want you want some more about that film?

[00:14:34.14] spk_0:
Yes, absolutely. So trust is the bedrock of all teams. And if if you’ve read anything around the five dysfunctions of a team, um, Lindsey Onis book, he talks about trust. Everybody has a different lens of trust, but he sort of focus is on for the purpose of shared language. He focuses on trust being in the areas of reliability, acceptance, openness, sinking crew. It’s, um so trust is a key thing of being able to create that within teens and being able to talk about what’s my islands of trust? Is it that you that you are reliable, You deliver what you say you’re gonna deliver? You set up regular zoom meetings In this disruption, you make yourself accessible. Somebody else may have the lens of trust around acceptance. You know, you’re accepting me in this disruption in this pandemic. You’re accepting my circumstances of home at home and all it is that I need to juggle kids, elder care, all those kinds of things. So everybody has a different lens, but it all sort of bedrocks under trust. And we all have people in our lives who we can kind of sort of think about when we think of the word trust who naturally comes to mind when we’re in workshop. Catherine and I typically will say, Close your eyes and think of somebody who you when we say trust somebody who comes to mind in it and it could be a leader could be a family member could be a friend, but almost undoubtedly acceptance, reliability, openness, not so much congruence. Tuscan grew. It’s really kind of wraps up all three, but those usually come to mind, and then we really just have a conversation about how do you build trust? How is trust? Quickly broken. Um, you know, are you somebody who trust people initially, when you meet them, where or do you have them earn trust? You know, So it’s a really good conversation, um, around how to do that during this time. So part of building trust for teens right now would be, you know, create a

[00:14:42.69] spk_6:
having a conversation

[00:15:26.34] spk_0:
about what do you need? What is it that you need? Um, how can I support you? Those air all embedded in trust? Um, one of things I often say is, what should I stop doing? Start doing, continue doing, um, it’s leaning in and saying, You know, I want a trusting relationship here, And how do we build that? Because trust is something you built. It’s like it’s like any investment. The more you invest in put trust moments, trust exchanges, sort of in the trust kit or whatever the more you can tap it. And if I’ve got a long term relationship with Katherine of 20 years, and she does one thing that appears to break trust. I’m gonna continue that relationship because she has such a deeper investment with me versus somebody new who really hasn’t taken the time to invest. So

[00:15:36.52] spk_6:
this is a time for

[00:15:40.78] spk_0:
teams to really build trust and, um, create that foundation and be reliable as much as you can in being accessible during this pandemic and being available, answering questions, creating connection, being accepting of people, circumstances at home, A lot of those kinds of things.

[00:16:02.59] spk_2:
And, of course, all this that we’re saying applies in leadership generally and generally. Certainly we’re in the midst of this spandex, like, makes sense to grounded in our current reality, but it applies way beyond absolutely this situation. Katherine earlier you talked about you mentioned. Listen with compassion. Could you flush that out, please? I love that.

[00:16:17.51] spk_3:
Yeah, I would. I would. I would love to do if you will allow us a little role. Play with Lorraine around the levels of Listen,

[00:16:26.60] spk_4:
you have You obviously have something planned. How could I Way

[00:17:44.88] spk_3:
would love to do this. There’s ah, with some acknowledgement you can have here. There are three levels of listening and the first level. I like to say it’s all about me. That’s when I’m listening to you and I’m busy understanding its impact on me. Whatever you’re saying, the second level of listening, It’s all about you. I’m listening to understand the impact and the, uh, inference and the effect of what you’re saying on the story you’re telling has on you. The third level is called Global Listening, and it’s when we’re cut it. It’s beyond you and me. And it’s the kind of listening that ah comedian has to do to read the audience. There’s a sense of the energy in the room. It’s like beyond the human individual. So Lorraine and I was one of the things to keep in mind is, you know, people want to give a bad rap to level one listening, but it’s a really important thing. If you’re giving me an assignment, I need to be thinking, Can I do it? Do I have the time? What is my capacity? I have to be thinking about its impact on me specifically, But if you are telling me something that’s important to you and you’re expressing a piece of yourself, I need to be listening in level two listening. I need to make sure I’m focused on you and the impact that what you’re saying in your storytelling has. And that’s where the listening with compassion comes through on Lorraine. And I would like to do a little role play where we show you what it feels like to listen at level one and then tow. Listen it level two.

[00:18:03.98] spk_2:
Absolutely. Katherine can just make a suggestion. Move your move, Your mouthpiece? A little. A little below. Just a little. Blow him out. Yeah, that’s good. OK, is some of the some of the constants we say, like, uh, you know, and it breaks up just a little bit. I think it’ll heal less. You’ll aspirated less air it right into the right into the microphone. But But we can still we can still hear you. Okay. Please.

[00:18:27.64] spk_3:
Okay. So Lorraine is gonna tell me a story. What do you want to tell? And I’ll start with level one listening when it’s all about me. What she’s saying,

[00:18:37.25] spk_6:
Katherine, guess what? Last year, I want a fabulous trip to Israel. It was something I’ve been wanting to do for so long. Less June and It was incredible.

[00:18:47.86] spk_3:
Meal is always fascinated. May it’s hot. I’m so jealous that you could go.

[00:18:54.32] spk_6:
Yeah, Yeah. I went with a group from my church, and it was an amazing experience and did this whole holy tour. And there were all these other church proves

[00:19:04.26] spk_4:
there that would

[00:19:05.40] spk_3:
have been so cool if I had been there because, you know, that means so much to me to to be part of community like that.

[00:19:13.45] spk_6:
Yeah, I felt like I was in community, Katherine. And you know, so many historical sides and, uh, the upper room And, you know, going to the temples and asana was it was incredible to see

[00:19:28.90] spk_4:
you don’t even know what

[00:19:29.66] spk_3:
half of those things are that you’re talking about.

[00:19:32.66] spk_2:
Okay, We get

[00:19:33.59] spk_4:
way, we’re gonna fly with Catherine. That was

[00:19:37.50] spk_2:
good. You know what you tried? You tried thio. Turn it. I wish I could have been part of that community, like, you know, like using the word community makes you a better listener.

[00:19:48.13] spk_4:
You know, said community. You know, I said hard. You know what e? I said the words. So I guess I’m a level to this here. I

[00:19:58.00] spk_2:
like that. there’s a little twist.

[00:19:59.16] spk_4:
I wish I could have

[00:20:03.08] spk_2:
been part of your new didn’t say your community. Okay, I’m sorry. Okay, We got it. Go ahead, please.

[00:20:06.33] spk_3:
So Lorraine’s going to start the story again, and I’ll give level two listening.

[00:20:09.55] spk_6:
Okay. Katherine, last year I went on this fabulous trip to Israel, and it was amazing last June, and it was on my bucket list, something I had wanted to do,

[00:20:18.65] spk_0:
and it really wasjust quite a spiritual experience for me.

[00:20:23.42] spk_3:
Well, I can I could just see what it meant to you in your face. You light up when you talk about it.

[00:20:29.24] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. I saw holy sites that I had read about for years. And just to be in these places, garden of Vicinity and all these specials places was pretty incredible. Being in better ham and a shepherd’s field. It was

[00:20:47.04] spk_4:
it was quite

[00:20:47.54] spk_6:
touching. At times. I just I had to pinch

[00:20:50.07] spk_0:
myself and realized Am I really here?

[00:20:52.72] spk_3:
Absolutely. I can hear how it enriched you. Just in your voice.

[00:20:57.31] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for showing interest,

[00:21:00.04] spk_0:
Katherine. I really appreciate that. Just your you’re leaning in just makes me almost relive the experience again. So that’s great.

[00:21:08.90] spk_3:

[00:21:09.74] spk_2:
excellent. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:16.02] spk_4:
Short little example. Interest is clear. Yeah, sometimes say that

[00:21:16.89] spk_2:
to people, you know, I can tell. I can tell how your voice, you know, I was that I could

[00:21:21.12] spk_4:
tell in your voice, or I could see how your face

[00:21:23.19] spk_2:
lights up when I’m having lunch with someone.

[00:21:25.09] spk_4:
I can tell how you’re how animated you get. Well, yeah, we’re bored with the other

[00:21:55.48] spk_2:
percent of our conversation, but because I tend to do that, I put a lot of people off. That’s why I e if I don’t do it virtual, you know, And a lot of times I don’t even do the video. No, but no. But you can see animation. You can see people’s eyes light up our arms start to move their hand. You know, you can see Ah, smile. Come in their face. Absolutely. It’s There are things we talk about that brighten us instantly. And yeah, that’s being

[00:22:01.31] spk_4:
the good skills

[00:22:10.39] spk_2:
being very graphic. Just perfect to recognize. Okay. You want to take us to a level. Did you

[00:22:14.20] spk_4:
know I’m not tonight? Were you three? But I do want t about I do stand

[00:22:23.68] spk_2:
up comedy. I’ll tell you about little when that really sucks when nobody’s laughing at your jokes. Um, actually, it doesn’t happen too often, but, uh, you get a sense of a room because you use that example of of a state of comic leading the room. Um, you know, when it’s not going well, um, you know, when a certain type of joke didn’t doesn’t do well, don’t do more of those, you know, Don’t try to push it. Maybe just that one. I’ll try another one, just like it Now, you know, time to move on, tell a story about seventh grade. You know, Tele Tele vulnerability story or something. And no. Yeah,

[00:23:06.84] spk_3:
but I want to say the reason that we talk about this and we spend time on it is because if you don’t know your options when you’re listening, you can’t use them intentionally. Right? So there are times when you need to be listening on level one, and there are times when you should be listening on level two, and we encourage you to be aware of your conversations to be sensitive to that. And this is even true in your home with your family, right?

[00:23:21.60] spk_4:
E was just

[00:23:35.44] spk_6:
gonna add. So both Katherine I our leadership coaches and when we’re coaching a client, we really need to hone into level three to level three is really looking at not just a smile, not just

[00:23:41.80] spk_0:
the energy, but it really is going in that somatic vein of where you’re really sensing. The whole body’s been sensing the energy behind a conversation, And you could

[00:23:48.40] spk_6:
sense when somebody is not saying something

[00:23:51.52] spk_0:
and when there may be shielding or whatever. But it’s deeper listening room. We as coaches have to really, really be centered and grounded in our listening because it really is full body listening to something. Intuition is a piece of you. And tradition is a big piece. You

[00:24:07.70] spk_2:
Very good. Um, all right, we still have a couple minutes left. Um, you had some tools and approaches. Who wants the

[00:24:16.37] spk_6:
mind? Catherine, If I mentioned a few things go for I had. So when I was thinking about this interview, I thought about

[00:24:22.04] spk_0:
some things, um, of the people and leaders, uh, and team members could do, and I

[00:24:30.04] spk_6:
had a few things here. Refraining, You know, here’s an opportunity

[00:24:36.74] spk_0:
to rethink how to frame this disruption, seeing it as an opportunity to recreate, to co create together and to give birth to two to some new things. So refrain ballots to leaders. Try not to overload your team with too many tasker projects, because remember there juggling their own family. Childcare, self care. They’re juggling anxiety, depression. You’re adjusting to a new normal balance. Number three. Be creative. It’s an opportunity to think out of the box something new again.

[00:25:03.31] spk_6:
This is all sort of glass is half full

[00:25:19.32] spk_0:
versus half empty kind of mindset. Fourth servant leadership, which requires just what we were just talking about listening, accepting being president, being adaptable and leading with head and heart heart being important, flexibility, flexibility with the deadline’s focus on the big picture and not bet just current deadline that that is required. So that will cause a leader us to expand our comfort zone a little bit. So they were not so tight. They like, I want that deadline and just be done right now

[00:25:35.13] spk_6:
and then. The last one is so

[00:25:50.27] spk_0:
important in a time like this, but it’s so important when there is no pandemic and it means the world to people based on my years of being a leader in organization. And that is saying thanks. Say thanks. It makes a difference. It shows you care. Um um you could never say it too often on thank the team for navigating this this new unknown, uh, territory. Thank them for the completion of a project. Thank them for just the smallest of the biggest things. And it’ll go a long way, and it will increase engagement. It will shift a culture, and it could make a big difference. So

[00:26:14.72] spk_6:
and thanks to you, tony, for yes thing.

[00:26:19.03] spk_2:
Is that the end that you had planned or Katherine Anything you want. Oh, you

[00:26:22.62] spk_3:
know, I think she summed it up beautifully. Okay, Lead with your heart and curiosity.

[00:27:04.74] spk_2:
Well, then, thanks to thanks to each of you A said, I’m glad you’re well and safe. And thank you for sharing. Thank you very, very much. Um, marine core principle of lead with heart, with great a company name. Obviously. Basic leave. Um, and Katherine Hyde’s senior director of digital engagement at Enterprise Community Partners. And thank you for being with 20 ntc non profit tech. Well, this is non profit radio. What I need to say is, thank you. Im profit. Radio coverage of 20 NTC, um, were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software, which I’m grateful for. Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. Thanks so much for being with us.

[00:27:18.14] spk_3:
Thank you. Turn. Thank you. My pleasure.