Nonprofit Radio for October 23, 2023: The Surprising Gift Of Doubt


Marc PitmanThe Surprising Gift Of Doubt

That’s Marc Pitman’s book. It’s stuffed with strategies to help leaders—and future leaders—lead better. Marc is founder of Concord Leadership Group. (This originally aired on August 2, 2021.)


Listen to the podcast

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

I love our sponsor!

Donorbox: Powerful fundraising features made refreshingly easy.


Apple Podcast button




We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

Transcript for 663_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231023.mp3

Processed on: 2023-10-20T19:44:24.263Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket:
Path to JSON: 2023…10…663_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231023.mp3.371459323.json
Path to text: transcripts/2023/10/663_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231023.txt

[00:00:11.68] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit

[00:00:46.62] spk_1:
radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. I’m traveling this week so I may not sound up to my usual. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of coccidioidomycosis if I had to breathe in the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with the highlights.

[00:01:13.59] spk_2:
Hey, tony, it’s the surprising gift of doubt. That’s Mark Pittman’s book. It’s Stuffed with strategies to help leaders and future leaders lead. Better. Mark is founder of Concord Leadership group. This originally aired on August 2nd 2021 on Tony’s Take two.

[00:01:16.36] spk_1:
Goodbye. Marian

[00:01:52.67] spk_2:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters generosity. This giving season donor box, the fast flexible and friendly fundraising platform for nonprofits, donor box dot org and buy Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM visit, Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kela to exceed their goals. Here is the surprising gift of doubt.

[00:02:44.96] spk_0:
It’s my pleasure to welcome Mark Pittman to the show. He is founder of Concord Leadership Group. He helps leaders lead their teams with more effectiveness and less stress. His latest book is the surprising gift of doubt, use uncertainty to become the exceptional leader you are meant to be. You may know him. Also as the bow tie guy, Mark has caught the attention of media organizations as diverse as the chronicle of philanthropy, Al Jazeera Fox News Success Magazine and real simple. The book and the company are at Concord leadership group dot com and he’s at Mark a Pitman, Mark Pittman, an overdue. Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:48.81] spk_3:
It is an honor to be here. Thanks tony

[00:02:51.09] spk_0:
and I’m not sure why you haven’t been on years ago and, and many times before. So I uh I feel bad about that because you’re a smart guy and you have lots of good, you have lots of good content, lots of good ideas. And uh that’s why I say long overdue.

[00:03:03.92] spk_3:
Well, thank you. And my head may not fit out of the office after this kind of word. Don’t get carried away,

[00:03:27.54] spk_0:
but you do. You do have a lot of good ideas, including the uh the ideas that are in your new book. And I want to start with having you explain how agonizing doubt can be a gift. Please help us understand that.

[00:04:48.45] spk_3:
Um It’s I’ve been an executive coach for 18 years now and it’s one of the things that really surprises people the most is the fact that high performers, first of all, don’t tend to know how to ask for help and then they get derailed when they start feeling down because they start feeling like they’re, they’re faking it. The that they’re the, you know, the wizard of Oz, the man behind the curtain, they don’t look at him um because they’re, they’re producing results, but they’re not sure how. Um and that doubt can be very destabilizing, but the gift is it can force us to look internally for our own cues. Uh Look to look, to look in areas where we’ve been told they’re soft or, you know, they’re, they’re woo woo. Um look at things that make us unique and it actually clarifies our, our leadership because it’s very much about the, the grain of our wood, the way that we put a spin on things as opposed to just doing all the best benchmarked activities that are out there. Um Yeah. So the surprising gift of that is it, it can make it to me what I’ve seen it do is instead of having that inner critic saying I must be broken, I must be just, I must, I probably shouldn’t even be in this position. It shifts the conversation to why might I be perfect for this role? Why might my organization be exactly the voice that the sector needs to have right now?

[00:05:00.90] spk_0:
And there is a lot of introspection involved in the I guess the overall work that you’re describing and we’ll go into some detail about, about. But uh you, you, you need to be reflective,

[00:05:58.28] spk_3:
introspective, right? Which often is something that a lot of leaders don’t. There’s not a lot of, there’s so much need in, in organizations that there’s not often a lot of time given for professional development or leadership growth. And so people don’t think of the time as, as doing reflection as legit leadership work. They feel like um when we’re in early in careers, we’re, or even in school, we get graded on what we accomplish, we take tests, we do tasks, we complete tasks and that becomes how we are promoted as we move into management and leadership. It’s taking that time to reflect uh is so incredibly important, but we haven’t seen it modeled that much. Um So there is, you’re right. Absolutely right. There’s a lot of introspection, but there’s also, that’s what leaders do. They no longer, they provide, they, they no longer are just making sure things get done. But they’re also looking forward to see where should we be going? Where, where should we skating to where the puck is? I guess even though I’m not a sports guy, I grew up in Maine, so there’s a lot of hockey there.

[00:06:12.61] spk_0:
Uh Thank you. Yeah. Any, any sports analogy will be largely lost on me, sports

[00:06:18.01] spk_3:
ball. So I, I’m

[00:06:26.47] spk_0:
not familiar with basketball. So I wouldn’t know that skating in the park uh uh metaphor now. And I want to reassure folks that this is not only material for current leaders but future emerging leaders.

[00:07:22.91] spk_3:
Absolutely. When part of what um what we, when we’re going through our leaders journey, if we can identify the earlier, we can identify what makes us different, what makes us unique. Where are our limits? Where, where are we really good? Um Where do, where can we excel? It can help us position our leadership roles so that we’re not being squeezed into somebody else’s box, uh as much as possible, the organizations are clear are artificial. They’re, they’re not um they’re not perfect. So we’re always gonna have to do things that we don’t enjoy or we don’t like, but we can definitely, there are things we can do in our environment and in our, our schedules and the people that are around us that can help us or can really hinder us. So the earlier we know, even as, as people are going through their own personal growth journey, uh the more that they can identify these, these uniqueness is uh that they, that they bring to the table, the better thinking somebody was asking in a previous podcast, can’t you throw these conversations? Can’t you throw some of the, you know, if you’re being interviewed for something, can’t you just answer the questions the way that you think they want them to be answered and you could, but you may get the job that you don’t want.

[00:07:50.98] spk_0:
Right. That may not be in your, your, your best self interest, your own self interest. Um, you know, I can see how, uh, you would, you, you’d be soothing as a coach, just your voice. I have that. I have that in New York. I grew up in New Jersey, but close enough to New York City, Stone’s throw. I got that, uh, east coast. But you have a, I mean, you’re northern. You said you grew up in Maine now. You’re in South Carolina. You have a, you have a soothing way about your

[00:08:11.83] spk_3:
voice. Well, thank you, Mark after dark was gonna be my, uh, my DJ handle Mark

[00:08:19.61] spk_0:
after dark. You and Alison Steele the Night

[00:08:21.44] spk_3:
Bird, then it turns out there was already a mark after dark. So I’d have to spell dark with AC. Ok. So we do it. Here

[00:08:27.68] spk_0:
we go. All right. Claim it. Yeah, you just, your voice has a, uh, a softening calming quality

[00:09:00.51] spk_3:
to it. I’ve been told that I’ve had some people come to me and want, um, they kind of want me to be their boss, uh, some business owners and some nonprofit executives or, well, I want a coach that’s gonna tell me exactly what to do and make it, you know, make it hurt to not do it and that’s not who I am. I’m sure there are those coaches out there that are drill sergeants but um I believe most leaders are really hard pressed and doing the best they can. And so I like to be able to encourage them and, and kind of blow on the coals that are the fire that’s almost going out and rekindle their, their passion to do it themselves. Coaching with compassion. Nice. Wow dot com. I’ll get that coaching

[00:09:31.50] spk_0:
with compassion, the compassionate coach, the bow tie guy and the compassionate coach. Um I wanna dive into something that uh very interesting to me but you have it buried, it’s buried on page 98. Ok. It’s the Pittman family homework that you used to do. Tell me about that you uh you, you covered in just a couple of sentences. I to me it was a little bit of a gloss over because I’m very interested in what got you to where you are and what informs your coaching and, and I got to believe that the Pittman Family homework is, is integral

[00:11:11.48] spk_3:
in, in here. Absolutely. As I look at my bookshelf, they all, many of the books are things that I, I grew up reading. So in my family, we had uh school work because we were students at school. But my sister and I also had uh homework for being pitman’s. So we were had to read positive mental attitude books and to listen to motivational speakers. Um and we had to go to events, seminars, rallies, the sort of things where people were talking about goal setting and, and uh living your dream and, and all, um, my parents were just amazed that they hadn’t been taught this. They were learning it with us and they were shocked that they’ve never been taught goal setting or dreaming or leadership or people skills and they didn’t want us to, to be inflicted with missing that before we left the house. So, um, I didn’t know other people might, I thought everybody had homework because they’re in their family. But I was started to read is I, I had been reading Dale Carnegie how to win friends and influence people. Uh, Frank Beers’s how I raised myself from failure to success in selling Charlie tremendous Jones. Life is tremendous. Listening to Zig Zigler Florence Let Tour, uh, Les Brown growing up that part of the part of the way, one of our kind of traditions too was having a motivational speaker on while we were in the shower. So we would always have a stack of tapes next to the, next to a, uh, a kind of boom box. And, uh, we would just put them on while we’re doing our thing. And then, you know, the person’s done when the tape goes off.

[00:11:18.65] spk_0:
That’s when you know your shower is done. Wow. So, yeah, I mean, this was the days before, uh, waterproof, uh, uh, phones and, and I ipods.

[00:11:45.86] spk_3:
So my wife knew that she said, she said she knew she was when we were dating, she knew she was dating an entrepreneur because I had a whole bunch of tapes. She had to clear off for the passenger seat of the car. I was just so used to listening to different tape series and uh you know, Kiyosaki, Rich Dad, poor dad. And yeah, all sorts of different, always learning. Trying to, always

[00:11:47.65] spk_0:
after Kawa, what did you say,

[00:12:33.18] spk_3:
Kyi? Uh Robert Kiyosaki wrote a book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad in a series after that poor dad. Yeah, just different ways. People keep different uh mindsets, people have about money and um security and, and it’s really helpful and going into fundraising was really helpful to have this kind of being able to speak the language of your donors is one of the most important things um in fundraising and having been exposed to this literature that the other leaders were being exposed to, made it a lot easier to, to talk to them. In fact, my first talks in um first professional talks were translating marketing things in sales for fundraisers cause sales was the s word 25 years ago. And um so I would take like Seth Seth Godin’s idea, virus information, marketing and make it. So I’d fully attribute it, but I’d make it so that it was understandable to how this could work in a non profit.

[00:13:28.39] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Are you looking to maximize your fundraising efforts and impact this giving season? Donor box’s online donation platform is designed to help you reach your fundraising goals from customizable donation forms too far reaching easy share, crowdfunding and peer to peer options. Plus seamless in-person giving with donor box, live kiosk. Donor box makes giving simple and fast for your donors and moves the needle on your mission, visit donor box dot org and let donor box help you help others. Now back to the surprising gift of doubt.

[00:13:47.56] spk_0:
So this Pittman family homework, which obviously, as you’re describing, you know, evolved through the, through the decades, you’re continually, continually learning to even today, you say that in the book a couple of places. Um But this was like elementary school. You were, I mean, they were, they were probably considered this indoctrination.

[00:14:34.22] spk_3:
Oh Absolutely. Yeah. Looking back on it, it totally was. And when Charlie, totally, well, my uh my Charlie tremendous Jones became a mentor of mine, which he’d been a hero of my universe cause I, I love his book. Um and he said, when I was looking with our kids, he said, oh, I would never do it that way with, as your parents said, I would teach, have them do stories, I’d have them. Uh have your kids read biographies and be inspired by, by stories as opposed to reading the how to literature. But um I probably because of my upbringing, I love, I love nonfiction. I love reading a good how to book on, on leadership or in goal setting or vision casting storytelling. Yeah. Credit to credit the

[00:14:35.26] spk_0:
pitman parents. Well,

[00:15:05.88] spk_3:
one time Sandy Reese was in interviewing me and she, uh, years ago and she came up with a, she cataloged all the books that I referenced in the talk. Uh, and my, just in a conversationally because I still read 50 to 75 books a year. Um, to, and, and I had to set a goal years ago to read nonfiction because that’ll make me a better storyteller. But I had to set it as a goal. Now. I can fully enjoy reading nonfiction. I mean, reading fiction. Sorry, reading, sorry. Yeah, reading the fiction books. Um, that are enjoyable. I always thought I was cheating but now it’s a goal. So I’m ok. I said a certain number of goals for fiction books I want to read in a year and 50 to 70

[00:15:14.91] spk_0:
five a year. Do you still

[00:15:34.33] spk_3:
read? Yeah. I, I’m cranking through books this year too. I don’t know why. But I love, well, part of it is, there’s just, I want to keep fresh when I’m writing a book. I try to not to not read in the genre that I’m writing it. So I didn’t read a lot of leadership books. So I was doing surprising gift of doubt because I didn’t want to, um, mistakenly, like I take, take over somebody else’s thought that should be attributed to them because I really do think crediting the source is really important. Um which this book even get more, more to the point. The editors were even more insistent that I, I double and triple checked my, my references, which I thought was wonderful. Yes, there’s a bunch of end notes. Yeah, I haven’t been pushed this hard in a while. So I’m really, really pleased with the team that helped me with this one,

[00:16:05.77] spk_0:
something you say early on is that the motivation is within you expand on that for us.

[00:16:11.89] spk_3:
Well, the um part the, I don’t remember exactly. I know that was part of the chapter. Sorry, you have to flip through the pages, you know, you write a book and then it’s a quiz

[00:16:19.84] spk_0:
on page 16 or something, but you talk about the motivation, the motivation for leadership and, and good and just good intentions is is within you.

[00:17:31.76] spk_3:
Yeah, I think part of what we um we spent so much of our life and another part of the book, I do this map of the leader’s journey where it’s a four quadrant section uh where we start off on the confidence scale, which is the vertical scale and we go down to unsure, we’re gonna talk about the leader’s journey. OK. Well, that’s part of it is that we are so used to looking externally for our cues that the, we forget to look internally and find out what, what are, what, what do we value? What are we passionate about what are two things we forget, we forget to, to actually give them air. And often we don’t really permit ourselves to, to define what we value or what we hold on to because we’re looking for others in uh for cues, either the culture or systems. But the other thing that we somehow don’t do is we don’t credit them as being unique traits. We think everybody must be like us. Uh, you and I both wear glasses and it’s almost like we forget that we’re wearing glasses at times. I don’t know if you’ve ever had the experience of trying to find your glasses and they’re right there on your face. They’re not even on your head, on your face. You, um, I get fingerprints all over my glasses when I do that. But we often, the stuff that’s within us is often the stuff that makes us unique, makes us, um, a, a valued part of the team and we just kind of write it off as a weird quirk of our own. Not something that’s worth giving attention to.

[00:17:54.92] spk_0:
It’s, it’s some of it’s among those natural strengths you talk about natural strengths versus learned skills.

[00:18:02.28] spk_3:
Well, yeah, some of our

[00:18:03.78] spk_0:
natural strengths. You, you’re right. We, I guess we, we, uh, we minimize them thinking everybody, everybody’s that smart or everybody

[00:19:48.77] spk_3:
thinks about that or if I can do it quickly, then it must not be work. Um, I remember being in a early job. I, I loved, I was fundraising for prep school and I loved it. I just loved the traveling. I loved the, you know, when I was home at the boarding school, being at the table with the 10 other students, the 10 students and my, my wife and I were the faculty parents. And um I love the kind of matching school’s mission with donors values and trying to see if there was a fit and being ok if there wasn’t but being excited if there were that all excited me, but I didn’t think I could enjoy work that much. So I was talking with a, with a faculty colleague and I tried to make it sound really hard, you know, because there’s a lot of stuff that is hard. The travel isn’t that in inspiring, there’s delays and all. So I tried to really accentuate the bad stuff and he looked over at me and he said, you love your work, don’t you? And I felt so guilty because I totally did. And then I found out he didn’t, he would never want to do what I was doing because every day was different. Every day I had to come up on the spot with different answers. And um and I didn’t know what I had no idea who’s gonna call what I was gonna, who I was gonna see what opportunities are gonna arise. He liked being in his classroom and knowing this is the curriculum and this is where I can adjust if we go too long on one area or if we go too fast on another. He, he loved that stability. Uh, and that’s where I started realizing that the stuff that I thought was just kind of everybody would want to do this. And I, you know, I kind of got lucky is, no, not everybody wants to do this and any fundraisers listening to this knows that because we’re usually the oddballs out the non profit. We’re the ones that are outward focused in ways that others aren’t. Why don’t we talk about

[00:19:49.68] spk_0:
the, the four quadrants of the leader’s journey. Um You have some self assessments that folks are just gonna have to buy the book to do. We’re not going to be able to talk through the details of self assessments, but, but the leader’s journey through the four through the four quadrants, I think that’s valuable and especially moving from quadrant 2 to 3.

[00:22:23.96] spk_3:
Sure. So the uh what I loved about creating part of, I’ve been trying for 18 years to explain what I do with, with as a coach. And this was the first time when I created this four quadrant methodology. It was the first time it, people repeated it back to me and they understood it. And my wife looked at it and said, well, this is me as learning, this isn’t just leadership, but the axes again are confidence uh vertically and then inputs horizontally quadrant one is where you’re high confidence and you’re looking externally. So we most leaders only get half the map. We don’t get the whole map, we only get the external half. So we, we start in a quadrant where we’ve seen other people lead and so we start copying them, somebody gives us the ability to run a project or to, to lead a team, um some sort of leadership and either we’re super excited because we’ve known we’re a leader and finally somebody else sees it or we’re scared, but we have the confidence from the other people that they’re gonna do it. That’s, and that’s where we just try to do what they’ve done. Um Some of the people that I listened to growing up, some of the motivational speakers would say if, if you’re leading a team and you turn around and there’s no one behind you, you’re just out for a walk and that’s when your confidence starts going down, which I dipping into the quadrant two, which is the experiment quadrant where you start trying to figure out, OK, what worked for tony didn’t work for me like tony has his own way of doing things and it’s not clearly not working for me. When I say jump, people don’t say how high, what do I need, where are the deficiencies and how do I fix them? And that’s where you start taking courses. You start getting cer certifications, reading books going to seminars, going to conferences, listening to podcasts. So it’s people skills or um closing uh on sales or fundraising. Um Anything. And me, most leaders kind of stay in quadrant too lurching from success to success. They have so much success that the people around them feel like. Oh yeah, this is they’re gonna pull the rabbit out of the hat again. We know that whatever she does, she’s an amazing leader. Um but she, the leader herself is, is wondering, is seeing all the deficits, all the deficiencies, all the stuff that they don’t have measured up. And that’s where the doubt builds up inside them to think. Well, maybe I’m not the right person. If they have the opportunity, sometimes it’s just through strain and stress, sometimes it’s through coaching to see that there’s a whole map. And the other half of the map is all the internal cues. So the external cues are great because it tells us how we learn. And there are good systems that we can learn from. But when we move

[00:23:10.83] spk_0:
before you, I want to just make sure folks are clear about what the, what the horizontal and these are labeled. So the, so the the the vertical is confident and unsure. So confidence is on top, unsure at the bottom and then the horizontal is external and internal. So when you’re in quadrant, when you’re in quadrant one, you’re uh observing and you’re, you’re confident and that’s the confident external quadrant, quadrant two, that’s the unsure external

[00:23:14.55] spk_3:
and you’re trying to fix this wrong.

[00:23:15.92] spk_0:
That’s what we’re talking about right now. I just wanna make sure

[00:23:35.59] spk_3:
everybody’s clear and that’s the cusp. So I find the magic happens at the, when people are moved from quadrant two to quadrant three, which is the, they’re still in the unsure half of the map, but you’re moving internally to figure out. So let me illustrate like this. Have you heard getting things done by David Allen? Uh No, I haven’t. Ok. Well, it’s 13,000 listeners. They’ve heard of it.

[00:23:40.71] spk_0:
The audience is better read than the host.

[00:24:57.94] spk_3:
So the uh if you, if you read a book, like getting things done is all in time management and you only implement 10% of it in quadrant two, you’re gonna think. Wow, I failed at another thing. I can only get 10% of this. The book says it changed people’s lives. It’s not changing my lives. I just write lists. That’s all I get out of this. Quarter three is where you shift the question to. Huh? I wonder why either. I wonder why that didn’t work for me. What is it, uh What is it about the book or it’s shifting the focus to? Wow, I got 10% that 10% is really helpful. This writing list things with the next action item really actually is, is really helpful. And as one of my mentors said, years ago, eat the chicken, spit out the bones. All right, the chicken for me in getting things done is writing lists. I don’t have to do the whole reviews and the files cabinets and all this other stuff that has helped other people. It’s not gonna help me. And as you start building in quadrant three were looking at your hard wiring, looking at your stories. You tell yourself, looking at your goal, setting your mission, your vision, your values, your personal style, it starts building up your confidence again because we in quadrant two, you’re just seeing all your, what you lack in that. You’re afraid somebody’s gonna figure out that you’re really just faking it. In quadrant three, you start seeing why some of the things work the way they do for you. Um Why your organization doesn’t necessarily do whatever all the other organizations are doing, but you don’t have it just a, it’s not just a whim or a feeling, it’s, you start being able to have the language to be able to express what, why you do what you do. And that builds your confidence back up to Quad four, which is a focused leader. Quadrant. OK?

[00:25:26.40] spk_0:
Before you go to four. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people get stuck in in the second quadrant and the transition from 2 to 3, you find a lot of people in your practice and generalize beyond that stuck in that second quadrant, what we working with, working with external systems that are not not being rewarded

[00:25:35.40] spk_3:
or not looking for the next guru looking for the next framework.

[00:25:38.37] spk_0:
Why is it, why is, why are so many people stuck into looking for this external help? That’s it’s routinely not not fulfilling for them.

[00:26:38.23] spk_3:
I think part of it is because we are, we were raised that way. We look for parents for cues, we look for coaches, for cues, we look for, we look to externally to teachers uh to grade our work uh bosses to give us um you know, performance reviews. And I think we’re taught probably at least in the cultures that I work in to not really trust ourselves to not trust the inner voice, the nudges that we’re getting because those are soft. We should look for hard data, we should look for benchmarking, we should, we should see what others are doing. Um There, there are good things with looking at others, but it’s just not the complete picture. I think it really needs, it’s like an introvert that is trying to copy an extrovert boss. So the extrovert uh mentor walks around the office, talks to people gets energized by doing that has a high level of energy with the personal relationships. Um an introvert boss, this introvert that’s trying to be, you know, an emerging leader maybe will get drained from that. It’s not that they can’t be social and be engaging, but it’s that it’s not energizing for them. So they’ll need to take a lot of time to recharge their batteries but they won’t necessarily give them the, if they don’t look internally to realize. 00, I wire differently. They’ll try to keep forcing themselves into somebody else’s mold. Um, you know, the, the, the proverbial square peg in a round hole.

[00:27:01.64] spk_0:
Ok. Somebody else’s mold being based on the way we grew up, like you’re

[00:27:05.48] spk_3:
saying, the external. Yeah,

[00:27:06.71] spk_0:
teachers, parents, bosses you’re trying to fit into, we’re accustomed to trying to fit their molds

[00:27:40.92] spk_3:
and think about it nonprofits too. Yeah. Boards, every board member seems to come in with their own kind of mold for how a nonprofit should work or how a leader should work or how something should get done. And what is incumbent on us as, as nonprofits to help with the boards is to on board them, to train them to. This is how our, our nonprofit works. These are our values as a nonprofit. This is how we do things. This is the communication styles we’ll have, we will not go back behind each other’s back and gossip. That is not how we operate here. Um But that often that on boarding and, and board uh board orientation of often doesn’t happen. So you’re stuck with a bunch of people that have these external moles that they want to try to force the leaders and the staff and the nonprofit into that aren’t necessarily helpful or in line with what the nonprofits there for

[00:27:58.12] spk_0:
or even worse than not helpful.

[00:28:00.05] spk_3:
Yeah. Thank you.

[00:28:05.47] spk_0:
Detrimental, hazardous, toxic, you know. So then moving from 2 to 3, I know you, I know you, you already did this but because you were ready to go from 3 to 4, but I

[00:28:11.95] spk_3:
go for it. This is great. You’re suffering a lackluster

[00:28:27.57] spk_0:
host. So I, I’m, I’m, I’m just processing it. You’ve been thinking about this for decades, but I’m still, I’m still processing. So the movie from 2 to 3, I I kind of saw that as, as a synthesis of all these different systems that you don’t call it synthesis.

[00:28:32.18] spk_3:
I don’t, that’s me

[00:28:56.84] spk_0:
doing all your work. You’ve been thinking about it for decades, you call it analyze, I call it synthesis. I like it. You, you, you’re free to call it analyze. Of course, I, I thought of it as a synthesis of all the things that you attempted in, in these external systems, the books, the webinars, the, the, the week long leadership conferences, whatever they were that were only partially or maybe not at all helping you, you, but you extract out what does, what does have values you and, and you make sense of it and you emerge in a better place. And that’s to me that was the synthesis of I

[00:29:51.51] spk_3:
like that. And the next quadrant and you also learn some of the um some of the patterns that you fall, fall into. You start reflecting enough to say, oh, wait, I’m doing that again. Does that mean I’m stressed or? Um, there’s one of the assessments of he’s ability battery, um, which tests you on how you actually perform on things. It’s not, how do you feel about, would you rather read a book or go to a movie? It’s not questions like that, but it’s do this task under time pressure and it shows what comes quickly to you. One of the things that came out for me early in my career was rhythm memory, which is a kinesthetic type of learning. Um It’s a and it’s also tied to a desire to move around. So I’ve always looked for jobs that involve moving around because I knew that that would be more life giving and energizing for me. What that meant was that I never work at the, at the

[00:29:53.51] spk_0:
prep school.

[00:30:59.38] spk_3:
Right. Absolutely. Right. But that also changed my career trajectory because I realized many of the major gift fundraisers that I’d seen that went into management became very frustrated because they had to manage other people that were doing the work and they actually wanted to do the work. So I, I took some ownership of my own career path and moved into positions that um allowed me to still have that kind of external, I mean, extrovert um you know, movement. So that kind of synthesis is also the internal synthesis of this is my way of operating in the world and I want to try to put myself as much as possible in ways that work with that. Um Not that I don’t wanna grow, not that I don’t wanna be stretched or, or challenged, but I also don’t wanna put myself in a position where I’m just gonna languish. Although that’s sometimes what the right career path should be when the head hunters call, they, they want to see, you know, a paper, career path of associate to the manager, to director to senior VP or something, which may not be the way that is realistic for, for people talking from experience.

[00:31:50.54] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Kela increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kela. The fundraisers, Crm maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser. CRM goes beyond a data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit. Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals. Like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:31:53.76] spk_0:
Thank you, Kate.

[00:34:27.70] spk_1:
The downside of doing planned giving fundraising is that you working with older donors. Most most typically folks in their eighties nineties and these folks often die while you’re working with them. And that happened. I had the oldest donor that I’ve ever worked with. Her name is Marian. Uh, I met her when she was just 96. She was young. Um, and she just died a few weeks ago, right on her 1/100 birthday. The actual birthday where she turned 100. That’s the day that she died. Of course, you know, that is sad. Uh, but there’s a lesson that I’m taking away from my four years with Marion. Lots of times when I would ask her how she’s doing, she would say I’m content, I’m content. And I, I always thought about that, not just now since she’s died, but that contentment was just what she was looking for and was very content with, was very satisfied with, you know, she had her opera recordings on records, of course, with her phonograph. Uh she had her daily newspaper, she had WQXR, the public radio, classical music station. Uh She had her memories, she had her lovely one bedroom apartment with a view of the Hudson River and always well kept, I mean neat, very neatly kept. She was very, very capable of taking care of herself. So contentment, you know, she had these things and she was just content. And II, I feel like that’s something that I am striving for contentment, contentment. So, so uh Marian, I, I salute you, I admire your contentment and, and I thank you for passing on something very, very valuable for me that is Tony’s take two Kate

[00:34:29.83] spk_2:
she seems like a wonderful woman. And that story is very touching and the words that you said were very touching. And so she lives on in your memories, which is

[00:34:38.59] spk_1:
wonderful. She absolutely does. And, and the idea of striving to be content will always stay with me from her.

[00:34:51.82] spk_2:
We’ve got Buku, but loads more time. Let’s go back to the surprising gift of doubt

[00:35:15.75] spk_0:
you at least would, would be, uh would look good on paper and do look good on paper. I, I would, I would never be, I, I can’t be an employee. I, I would, I would fail the, I would, I would fail the screening interview with the, with the, with the headhunter, uh, assistant assistant. I, I wouldn’t even get to the associate level.

[00:35:18.81] spk_3:
I remember the managing director. I don’t know how I get the head hunter.

[00:35:22.43] spk_0:
I’d be 20 minutes late just because I, I felt like why should I be on time for you? And then if I ever made it to the, if I ever made it to the interview, which I never would. But if I met, if I met a principal in the organization, I’d be showing, I’d show up late. I’d be in sneakers. No, I just, I

[00:35:38.50] spk_3:
do everything

[00:35:43.91] spk_0:
I could because I know I’d be, I would be a shitty employee. I just don’t fit them up. So I, I would, I’d be doing them a favor by wasting their time.

[00:35:50.62] spk_3:
That’s awesome.

[00:35:52.31] spk_0:
So move us into the fourth for those uh for those who are, are more suited to uh work in an organization, you’re moving to a level of you mentioned at one point, grace you’re leading with grace and finesse, I think you say

[00:37:37.78] spk_3:
right? And, and there’s a the, it’s because you’ve got the kind of confidence and the peace of mind of knowing why you’re doing things differently. So instead of just thinking about, I must be so bad because I can’t get energized. I don’t like going to all those social events night after night. Um You start realizing why, what fills you up and what fills your organization, your team, your, whatever your organization is. Uh And that grows your confidence to that fourth quadrant which I, I called focus. Um But I don’t want to make it sound like it’s Nirvana. Uh It’s not all blissful because we’re still dealing with human beings and we’re one ourselves. Leadership is still a challenge. And yeah, but you now have a much, you have the full map you can look at and look at. Do I need to find somebody to copy? Do I need to learn skills from people? Do I need to uh go to a class or get a podcast or read a book or do I need to actually figure out what, what the synthesizing do I need to analyze what I’ve consumed already? Or our organizations consumed to figure out why are we doing it differently. Um, one of the things I also want to be clear on is that the data can be helpful. So, I don’t want to discredit external stuff with fundraising, in particular, uh, when fundraising letters, we know if they’re chat and they use you, they get better response than if they’re, uh, boring things. Essays that would get a, uh, high school, a grade a, from a high school teacher. Um, and we know that we know that and there are some nonprofits that might be tempted to say, ah, we don’t, we want to be more business like, um, and so it’s not just throwing out all the data that’s out there, but uh synthesizing it, I’m really stuck on that word. Thank you for that tony. Oh,

[00:38:14.13] spk_0:
the third quadrant synthesis. Yeah, that’s the way I, I’m one reader, just one reader that, that’s the way I conceived of it. Um All right. So, all right. So we got these quadrants that sort of progression. The four quadrants sounds like something out of the Matrix. But, um I didn’t watch much of that series, so I can’t go beyond that. Uh That. So let’s leave it there. That analogy. Um You talk about ST and you mentioned early earlier storytelling and you talk a good bit about different stories, stories that we tell ourselves, stories about the organization, talk, talk some about uh the stories we tell

[00:39:47.79] spk_3:
ourselves. That’s one of the things that I, I think a lot of us don’t reflect on is the kind of the self talk that’s going on in our head all the time. Um, the two that I talk about in that are the, I call them stock stories. They’re either the ones that you tell people when you’re meeting them for the first time. So we often have kind of go to stories where it helps position, helps people position us in their mind. Um, so maybe some people like Laline, some people like, uh, you know what their education history is or their career history, there are certain things we go to as we start paying attention to those, we can start seeing if they really reflect what we’re trying to do. Often we get stuck in these from a different time in our life and we just kind of tell the same stories because we think we’re gonna get the same response. The one that the other type of stock story that that happens is, um, with Jessica Sharp here in Greenville is really cat, has her clients just catalog the self talk going through and just for a day or a couple of days listing all the different things that enter your head and that takes some discipline, especially to do it non judgmentally. But things like, ah, I always fail, I always mess that up, but I can’t, I’m never good at that. Um, writing them down on a piece of paper. And then after your time holding that paper up and just asking, well, reviewing them and then she asks her clients to say, would you talk to a friend like this? And oftentimes our thoughts are so toxic, we’re, we’re actually filling, we’re polluting our heads because we’re so hard on ourselves. We’re saying to

[00:39:55.86] spk_0:
ourselves that we wouldn’t even say to others, right

[00:40:11.52] spk_3:
ourselves with them. Right. Exactly. So her, her invitation is, why don’t you become a better friend to yourself? Um, which I, I think it’s really, I don’t know if you’ve experienced this today but it’s very hard sometimes when, when you’re used to being hard on yourself to loosen up, lighten up because it feels like you might just go. I, I feel like I might just go off the rails if I’m too kind to myself, I need to be really hard, you know, and, and

[00:40:23.52] spk_0:
be a discipline like you need to be a little stricter. Otherwise I’m gonna get

[00:40:28.08] spk_3:
reckless. Right.

[00:40:29.74] spk_0:
You know, if I, if I, if I loosen up and, you know, something, something, something careless, I’ll do something careless or, you know, something

[00:40:36.46] spk_3:
along those lines, I’m self employed. But I often joke that my boss is kind of a jerk.

[00:40:42.45] spk_0:
Well, I am too, but I, I don’t have a good joke like that. My wife, the

[00:40:46.32] spk_3:
lackluster host. There you go. My wife, my wife reminds me that I am the boss so I can, you know, you listen,

[00:41:40.64] spk_0:
as a coach, you listen to a lot of, a lot of people who are stuck in quadrant two, beating themselves up and whatever they are and they might even be in, they might even be in the gray and finesse quadrant quadrant four, but they’re still, they’re still hard on themselves or the, or the work is hard on them. How, how does it, how do you not generalize all coaches? How do you as a coach keep, uh stay positive, like go from one coaching session to the next to the next to the next in a day or even if there’s a couple of days, I mean, how do you continue to relate as a positive human being when you’re hearing tough story after tough story after, you know, maybe insurmountable challenge. Uh

[00:43:51.53] spk_3:
I find people incredibly fa that’s a great question. I find people incredibly fascinating and um I, I’m a glass is always full kind of guy, not half full or half empty, it’s always full of water or air. So, um there’s a strong, strong sense of optimism that II I bring to the table and resiliency, I guess because um even people that are going through hard things, it’s one of one of the postcards I carry in my bag when I, when I used to travel, hopefully I’ll start again. Uh So just when the caterpillar thought his life was over, he became a beautiful butterfly. Um And so there’s that sense of even the ends are often beginnings for people. Um, uh, there’s definitely times where I have to do some of my, some of my own stuff like, um, center, you know, some meditation practices and other things just to exercise to keep the headset. But, um, I’ve seen so many people can transform themselves into people that they’ve wanted to be but they, they weren’t really sure they could be. That, that gives me the hope as I keep going from call to call and sometimes it does seem like the calls gang up one toxicity to another toxicity. Um I mean, you need your own, you need self care. Yeah. And I also one of the things the privilege of being a coach is that you get to not be in the hiring and firing space with these people. So you get to be with them and it’s, it’s almost, I’ve heard this, I haven’t experienced this, but I’ve heard in the Midwest, they, they used to have blizzards where you couldn’t back in the day when you needed to walk to the barn and milk the cows that you could get lost on the way back to the house because the blizzard was so, so um so, you know, covering or severe, maybe. Ok, great. So you needed a rope between the two buildings. And sometimes I feel like as a coach, I’m the one that’s either the rope or I’m able to connect between calls saying hey, but remember just three calls ago, you, you already talked about that and this is what you were gonna do. Oh, that’s right. I forget, I forgot I did that. That’s super. Ok. And just kind of get pointing the way, pointing some of the rocks uh and the path for people to take. And that’s, that’s incredibly uh life giving for sure.

[00:43:54.03] spk_0:
Blinding, blinding. The blizzard was blinding. Thank you. That’s what we wanted. We’re both, we’re both 50 plus so blind. That’s what you want. Um Yeah, the rope. I said, you’re uh you’re the, you’re the the rope back. That’s I like that quite a metaphor. Good one. And so

[00:45:14.04] spk_3:
because yeah, the demands of life can really be blinding to this. Uh people we are, they’re so the center for creative leadership tried to figure out what the one thing was for business leaders. That would be the most stressful. And it turns out there were four and they were all as one as somebody else pointed out to me. They’re all people, peers, colleagues, customers and supervisors or bosses. And in the non profit, it’s often boards, donors, uh staff and, and um and the and the clients, those are all pulling people apart. So it’s really easy to lose our way and to have somebody that’s, that’s sole job is there to be there to help you be better. Um That I became a coach because in my experience, I grew more through talking to coaches, uh than I did. Consultants are great. They have a, they have a blueprint that they were hired them to, to put on to the organization. But talking to a coach that didn’t even know my work helped me to grow as an individual. And I could figure out how to do be a better individual in my job when I understood a little bit more about myself. And

[00:45:14.99] spk_0:
you also have the voice

[00:45:16.30] spk_3:
so well. There we go because it is mostly by phone, so compassionate voice.

[00:45:35.87] spk_0:
You were destined some more, a little more about stories. Maybe you digress a little bit, but uh you talk about the future eulogy. This is so this is other stories that other people would say would tell about you. How do you, you know, influence your future history and talk about the future eulogy and that kind of storytelling?

[00:47:38.86] spk_3:
Sure. Well, and stories because our phones may have an Android or I OS operating system. Some people may sell blackberry. I don’t know. But our human as human beings, it’s uh story is our operating system and one of the ways we can program that is by figuring out what’s the story we want to be living uh for me and for many people, because if you google your eulogy, you’ll find this as a coaching practice that’s been well used is to think about at your funeral. What will people say about you as what will your closest people, maybe your family, uh community members, colleagues, what are they gonna say? Um And some of us that’s a little bit too hypothetical. So it’s the other way to look at it is if you were to die today, what would they say about you today? And writing it down, even in bullet points doesn’t have to be complete sentences can bring some clarity to how they perceive you or how you think you’re being perceived versus how you want to be had one leader. That was we before the pandemic had uh quarter, three leadership days where we do, people would fly into Greenville and we’d hold the whole day and we’d kind of work together as a group through some of these exercises. And when, um the kind of the story that she wanted for her apartment and she realized profi that her staff would never know that she wanted it to be a joyful place because she was so focused on policies and procedures and tightening, you know, um, routines that had been really lax and not non-existent. Um But she said now I have an opportunity to, to live into this story that I’ve written and it was sort of like for her, it was a history of the future. It wasn’t a eulogy, but thinking about that kind of final beginning with the end in mind, uh Franklin Covey’s uh habit too can be very helpful for us. Uh My example was when I did this in my twenties, I realized I want my kids to know I love them. But going away to work didn’t necessarily communicate that love. So it allowed me to be, I wasn’t gonna stop going away to work cause that providing for my family was something that was pretty important to me. But um I was able to then figure out what are other ways that we can, I can communicate that love so that they know that I love them. Um, despite my going away,

[00:47:59.35] spk_0:
you just buy them things when you go away.

[00:48:01.41] spk_3:
That could definitely be part of it. Yeah, until my wife said palpable items. No more stuffed animals. I used to get one in every place I was going and she’s like that’s enough. They have enough stuffed animals.

[00:48:13.41] spk_0:
I would just, I just reduce it to the tangible goods. Just, just send, just send presents. We know love is equivalent to tangible tangible items. The more

[00:48:22.41] spk_3:
and the shot glasses in the airport stores were a little bit confusing to kids. Like what, why is this a doll cop? What is this

[00:48:30.39] spk_0:
shot glasses? The I I heart New York shot glasses. Great. Just send things, sending things that’s equivalent to love if you’re gonna be away re replace yourself with items with

[00:48:40.22] spk_3:
items. I would,

[00:48:43.68] spk_0:
um, I, so that I thought that was very interesting. The future eulogy. Uh,

[00:48:48.44] spk_3:
have you ever done an exercise like that? No,

[00:48:52.97] spk_0:
no, I haven’t. Or, or what even, even making it simpler, what, what folks would say about you now?

[00:49:00.56] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s, it’s very clarifying and a little chilling for some people.

[00:49:52.46] spk_0:
Let’s talk a little bit. See, uh So just the listeners know, see, we’re bouncing around on different things that, that I think are interesting because, you know, we can’t really do the self assessments that are, that are part of Mark’s book. You just gotta, you gotta get the damn book, surprising gift of doubt. Mark a pitman, you got to get the book to do the self assessments to move yourself from the quadrant two. You may be stuck in or to yourself from whatever quadrant you’re in to advance your, your, your current leadership effectiveness or your future leadership. We’re all potentially future leaders, even those of us who don’t work in an organization, we’re still leading, I lead, I lead folks, I, I just, they’re not on my payroll but an organization payroll that I, that I am leading, but I’m leading them. So leadership still applies. Even if you’re an entrepreneur, Solone, however you want to call yourself.

[00:49:58.77] spk_3:
Well, I’m really glad you said that because I think a lot of people think leaders uh is, is a title which that is a form of leadership, like you’re saying, it’s influencing others and as human beings, we’re always influencing other people and that is a form of leadership. And so I try to take the broadest view a absolutely.

[00:51:05.50] spk_0:
And I find it, you know. All right, I’m doing, my synesthesia is kicked in. I just got to chill because I’m thinking about times when I’ve been able to influence someone, I’m not gonna, I can divulge any details but influence someone to a way of thinking that I’m, that I’m, that I saw that they didn’t and I’ve moved there. I, you can move people’s thinking and it’s not, it’s not, uh, conniving or anything. It’s just, it’s moving, it’s just consensus building and I’m not saying I’m successful at it every time, you know, but, but when you, when you, when you’re successful at helping people see things in a different way, you know, whether it’s, uh, I don’t know, it’s a concept or it’s money or it’s a, it’s a path forward to, in a relationship to bring it to fundraising. Um, it’s, it’s very, very gratifying. I mean, like I said, it’s giving me a couple of instances where, uh, where it’s happened. So that’s all to me. That’s all

[00:51:14.18] spk_3:
leadership. Yes, absolutely. I firmly agree. Yes.

[00:51:19.00] spk_0:
OK. Otherwise we’re shutting you off, you know, got 46 minutes. That’s the end,

[00:51:23.54] spk_3:
that’s the end of the show.

[00:51:26.20] spk_0:
I, I figured you would, of course. Um, so, you know, we’re moving around to different things that we can help you, help, you understand, the self assessments, help you move your leadership forward. And another one that Mark talks about in the book is, is goal setting, different types of goals, very important goal setting, talk about

[00:52:21.43] spk_3:
that. Well, so one of the things that we do with goal, there’s a lot of books written on goal setting. So this is the, the third of the three major areas that I focused on. But what I did was I took about 18 years ago, 17 years ago, I took all the different goal setting things. Uh not only did I study as a kid growing up in my family, but I also was in a program in college that actually required me to get a lower grade because I was supposed to take leadership and, and learn goal setting as a extracurricular, not just as part of my course of study, but I also my master’s in organizational leadership. So I had these all sorts of formal education on goal setting as well as you just said

[00:52:24.43] spk_0:
something, a course required you to get a lower grade.

[00:52:45.61] spk_3:
Yeah, there was a, there was a scholarship at the undergrad college. I went to that required me to get, I, I had a lower not required. I shouldn’t say that that there was a lower grade expectation because there was an expectation that you were gonna be all in on leadership and student activities. And part of that was having a mentor with a staff member and having regular meetings with them, teaching you goal setting and teaching you how to do mission statements and how to create strategic plans and that sort of thing. And that was all sort of extracurricular

[00:52:59.71] spk_0:
and you got too high a grade. Is that what happened?

[00:53:01.61] spk_3:
No, no, no. Fortunately they let my high grades still stand. But, but there are other, some of my other friends who had a different scholarship had to keep a higher GPA, I didn’t have the pressure of having to keep a GPA to keep the scholarship I had. So I see.

[00:53:14.82] spk_0:

[00:53:40.76] spk_3:
All right. So, goal setting anyway. So, so what I did was I tried to take a bunch of the parts that I didn’t realize I was doing quarter three work at the time. But I tried to take a bunch of the different parts that I liked and this, this system that I use, um I submit to it, it’s in the book and I use my clients. Uh It isn’t the end, all, be all, but it’s a good one to try. Uh The first step you do is write a list of 100 things to accomplish in the next year or in your life. Um It’s, uh and, and why 100 for me is because it forces you to get silly and it forces you to think creatively because at some point you’re just trying to fill lines. Um What most people that I’ve got done this with, they get 10 pretty quickly because it’s job related. Probably things that are going to be on the performance

[00:53:58.64] spk_0:
review 10 goals in a lifetime or even in a

[00:56:19.53] spk_3:
year. That’s not. No, but then the next 10 become really hard. And when we were doing these uh intensives here in Greenville, people would call me over to the table and say, Mark. Um Can I uh this, can I put this, this goal on my list? Uh It’s like planting a garden. I want to plant a garden. Can I put that on my list? Chuck? Of course, you can, it’s your list and that’s the point. Um It gets the personal and the professional together. And what I have found with so many leaders is that they get so fragmented in their life. They have their professional side, they have their family side, they have different sides that when they’re looking at their goals comprehensively and they’re listing out 100 forces you to do that in some way. Um It, the amount of um centering that, that brings to human beings, the energy in the room invariably goes up because people see themselves, their full cells represented there. And it’s not like you’re gonna necessarily share your board or your boss that you’re doing a garden goal, but it’s your life. So you get to set the goals for that you wanna have. Um So the first step is that is writing the 100 the second step is then the history of the future, which is you read through all of them and it will take days usually to do the 100 read through the, uh, read through them and then just project forward. What does it look like? 12 months from now? If you’ve accomplished everything on that list, even the most far out crazy ones. What are people saying about you? What awards you have? What degrees you have? What do you, how are you feeling about yourself and then let that sit. Um If you did nothing else, you’d be shocked in 12 months. How many of those things you can accomplish? I’ve tested this with groups and it’s fascinating. Uh but then you, then you can map them out. You, you go back over the list and um look for two different types of goals. Either the ones that make sense, like planting a garden that if you’ve also to fill in 100 lines, you also plant carrots, plant cabbage, plant potatoes, planting a garden will kind of scoop up a bunch of those others, other goals, the smaller goals in it. So you could use, that’s one type of magnet goal. The other ones are some that just kind of pop off this the the page or you kind of get a little kind of jolt of joy. There’s, there’s, it’s not really rational why some of those are there but paying attention to those and, and trying to call the list down to about 3 to 5 of the rational goals. And the irrational goals. Um, and then plotting those out and focusing on those. Um, some people get it done in a quarter. I usually have to take the full year for each of those goals. But

[00:56:31.61] spk_0:
on one of your books shelves behind you, you have a license plate that says go guy.

[00:57:26.65] spk_3:
And that’s because of this process to basketball again. No, it’s not. It was my, my first ever training was with the equine vet and my second training was because of his referral was with a physical therapy practice who was owned, they were owned by physicians and they wanted to prove that they needed an admin help to do the billing so they could keep doing more care of patients. So we set up, uh, we broke down their goals, uh over the course of a year, what their revenue had to be, what, how they’re gonna communicate it to the people that own the practice, all the different things. 12 months of them, uh We worked also how they can operate, operationalize their, their strengths. So the people, what did the people like doing? What didn’t they like doing? They’d never asked them, they just did the work that was in front of them. They found out one person really loves knees, somebody else loved ankles. So they started shifting the workload so they could do better at a higher quality. Um Within four months of that training, they’d hit their annual goals within the twelvemonth goals they had accomplished in four months. And so I saw this, uh, Pippy, uh, I saw her at a store and she said that’s the goal guy. That’s the guy I was telling you about pointing at me. So I got a license plate to say, go guy. I thought that was pretty cool.

[00:57:45.93] spk_0:
The equine veterinary practice, you could have been the full guy

[00:57:50.42] spk_3:

[00:57:51.95] spk_0:
ps are always the worst. Unless you think of them first.

[00:57:55.72] spk_3:
I’m trying to get in there. But, um, guy,

[00:58:09.90] spk_0:
all right. All right, Mark. Leave us with, uh, some, some, uh, Mark a pittman, surprising gift of doubt, wisdom and, uh, and, and we’ll leave it there,

[00:59:00.53] spk_3:
please. Well, thanks so much for having me on the show and it’s my pleasure. One of the things that I think is really important. Well, there’s two things I’d like to end with. One is that we’ve hinted at assessments if you’re doing assessments as part of your teamwork, um, part of your own personal growth. I love them. Don’t let them confine you. They’re not, they’re meant to help you grow and grace and understanding of other people not to slap labels on people and pigeonhole them. So I’ll just, that’s one thing that’s a big, big ax. I like to grind. But I think going forward just people leaving, you know, listening to this, um, as you work through the, whatever the days are ahead of you and you find yourself asking, you know, criticizing yourself being really hard on yourself, try to pause and just say, well, what if this is exactly the gift that I have for the sector? What if, what if this limitation is actually the strength and the, the unique bend that I give? Because I feel like when you’re feel like you’re broken, you may be but you could be on the verge of greatness.

[00:59:17.66] spk_0:
The old guy, the book is the surprising gift of doubt, use uncertainty to become the exceptional leader. You are meant to be, get the book do the assessments. Don’t let them pigeonhole you, Mark Pitman, you’ll find him and his company at Concord leadership group dot com and he’s at Mark a pitman. Thank you again. Mark real pleasure.

[00:59:42.14] spk_3:
Thank you

[00:59:51.58] spk_2:
next week and we won’t let you down if you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:59:54.63] spk_1:
I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com

[01:00:44.39] spk_2:
were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. This giving season donor box, the fast flexible and friendly fundraising platform for nonprofits donor box dot org and by Kela grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers crm visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[01:01:10.21] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and the beach brand.

Nonprofit Radio for October 16, 2023: Financial Literacy For Your C-Suite & Board


Dean Dalzell & Jerry Frick: Financial Literacy For Your C-Suite & Board

Leadership that understands your numbers protects not only your nonprofit. It also protects the people filling those roles. Two finance and audit pros walk us through six key metrics that anyone can understand, and that reveal the true state of your financial standing. Dean Dalzell and Jerry Frick are from Veracity Pros.





Listen to the podcast

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

I love our sponsor!

Donorbox: Powerful fundraising features made refreshingly easy.


Apple Podcast button




We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

Transcript for 662_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231016.mp3

Processed on: 2023-10-13T00:28:27.581Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket:
Path to JSON: 2023…10…662_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231016.mp3.467837174.json
Path to text: transcripts/2023/10/662_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231016.txt

[00:00:34.12] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. And don’t I sound much better than even just last week, 99% back to normal. And I’m glad you’re with us. I’d bear the pain of Lenticonus if I saw that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming?

[00:01:15.04] spk_1:
Hey, tony, we have financial literacy for your C suite and board leadership that understands your numbers. Protects not only your nonprofit, it also protects the people filling those roles to finance and audit pros. Walk us through six key metrics that anyone can understand and that reveal the true state of your financial standing. Dean Dell and Jerry Frick are from veracity pros an Tonys take two

[00:01:17.45] spk_0:
Oklahoma City. Anyone

[00:01:50.79] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box dot org and buy Kela grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM, visit Kela dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kela to exceed their goals. Here is financial literacy for your C suite and board.

[00:02:49.78] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to welcome Dean Dasell and Jerry Frick to non profit radio. Dean has almost 30 years of leadership in administration, accounting and finance across nonprofits and for profits. He is also an outsourced CFO at veracity Pros. Jerry Frick is a finance professional with extensive experience in financial reporting analysis, forecasting, budgeting cash management grant administration and we may as well throw in auditing and internal controls. Jerry is also an outsourced CFO at Veracity Pros. The firm is at veracity pros dot com. And Dean and Jerry are both on linkedin Dean gel. Jerry Frick. Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:02:53.85] spk_2:
Thank you. Glad to be

[00:02:54.79] spk_3:
here. Thank you, tony. Glad to be here. I’m

[00:02:56.80] spk_0:
glad you are. Uh the first thing I think of is Dean and Jerry. Uh Dean Martin and Jerry. You gotta take this show on the road, the Martin and Lewis show, change your last names and start doing movies together. Duly

[00:03:09.07] spk_3:

[00:03:10.91] spk_2:
I’m ready. Where’s, where’s the casting goal?

[00:03:13.77] spk_0:
Absol Martin and Lewis, they did, they did dozens of movies together, whatever. I don’t know how many but uh there were theaters, you know, you should take this show on the road as Martin and Lewis.

[00:03:22.72] spk_3:
We’ll just have to figure out who the Straight Man is.

[00:04:01.86] spk_0:
Yes. Well, well, Dean, you’ll have to, you’ll have to make that sacrifice. That’s gotta be you, you stay, you’re gonna stay true to the, to the, uh, to the original team. Um All right. So let’s talk about some fiscal literacy, financial literacy, maybe for board members specifically, but, you know, not necessarily it could be for uninitiated or maybe un indoctrinated. I don’t know, uh, other c suite folks besides CFO S you, you are both outsource CFO S. So you’re, you’re seeing a, a broad swath of nonprofits. Why do we all just, why do we all just get hung up on numbers? Why, why do we gloss over financial, uh, financial statements? Even simple balance sheets, audits. What, why, why do we, why do we all get scared and frozen by these?

[00:04:17.14] spk_3:
I think that’s a great question, tony. I, and it’s a lot that we’re trying to help in what we’ve seen in working with different organizations, especially C suite and leadership and boards of different organ nonprofit organizations is they see the numbers, they gloss over and they are happy that they got numbers but they don’t necessarily know what they mean.

[00:04:37.75] spk_0:
So they should, they, hopefully they’re happy but they don’t even know if they ought to be happy.

[00:05:21.40] spk_3:
Exactly. And so it really gets down to the fiduciary responsibilities as a board, uh, you know, duty of loyalty, the duty of care, the, the duty of obedience, but making sure they’re fulfilling those uh, fiduciary duties and, and what we’ve seen both working with pros and in our prior life is, is that there’s really an opportunity to help the boards. Uh And I, and I jer know I can talk about this much more deeply than I can but really help the boards, uh assess what’s going on, uh, address what’s going on Act and then when necessary applaud. And that’s really what we try to help leadership, uh, folks and organizations do is how do you, how do you take those numbers? How do you understand those numbers understand what they’re telling us where we are, where we’re going. Um And how we do that in an effective way instead of giving them reams and reams of uh six point fonts with tiny numbers and dot

[00:06:12.65] spk_0:
points. Yeah. And you know, and, and my, my fear is that when it comes time to review financials, um, you know, it’s sort of done like five minutes before the meeting starts, people are flipping through, flipping through pages and, you know, that they don’t make any sense. They’re, they’re, they’re definitely abrogating their duties to the organization, to your, to your points dean, you know, they, they, and, and to themselves, I mean, they, they need to protect themselves as board members um as well as the organization and then, but it’s also, as you mentioned, you know, it’s also other, other c street leaders. I mean, they, it, it doesn’t, we, we can’t just all rely on the CFO to, to, we, we gotta have some literacy amongst ourselves. No. Is that is that, is that true, Jane Jerry?

[00:07:33.54] spk_2:
It’s absolutely true what you’re saying, tony and, and uh unfortunately, it’s all too common in nonprofit organizations that the, you know, the, the financial reporting is done by the CFO and quite often only understood by the CFO and that’s really the broken link. Um And, and it’s really not, you know, when, when you think of, of board compositions of nonprofit organizations, they go out and recruit board members who are gonna identify with their mission and maybe have some specialties in, in the mission area. A non profit is lucky if they get one board member who can understand financials. And so you’re right about, you know, just how quickly they get glossed over and you know, the, the board collapse if they get a report, even though they don’t understand it, they don’t have any idea what it’s saying. And that’s really the dilemma that, that we are trying to overcome with our clients is, is we want to get them reports that are not just jumbles of numbers that make no sense. We want them to see something that they can connect to. Um and, and really understand the financial health of the organization. And also how do those numbers connect to the mission delivery that that organization is trying to fulfill?

[00:08:15.99] spk_0:
All right, so, so let’s dive in. So how do we start to make this, these statements, these numbers uh you know, less abstruse to people more comprehensible, connect with them, Jerry, as you said, you know, how, how do we, how do we start to break this down so that it’s not just one person or maybe two in the entire organization, including the board that, that can make sense of these things.

[00:09:31.11] spk_2:
So I think you, you use the term that I would use to, it’s break it down. Um We’ve got to get away from thinking, you know, more data is better. Um The data is there, the CFO is required to understand the data and what everybody else needs to understand is what is the story that this data is telling us. So you have to break it down into, into the components that are really important and you know, when it comes to reporting those components to the board, uh less is more in my opinion, you know, so don’t I my experience and I know Dean has had this experience too. If you provide a board financial reports that just have columns and columns of numbers, you’re inviting them individually or collectively to go down rabbit trails that are just gonna waste time and accomplish nothing. So what you wanna do is you wanna summarize this information in, in a much more readable fashion.

[00:09:34.18] spk_0:
A dashboard uh uh uh A dashboard is

[00:10:14.24] spk_2:
perfect. We focus on dashboards and, and taking a balance sheet as you said and taking the income statement and, and summarize the numbers down to you know something much more readable. But then you, you can’t just stop there. You’ve got to provide and this is what the CFO S job and probably the executive director or CEO S job is. You’ve got to provide some analysis of what this is telling you. So that could involve narrative, it could involve charts and graphs, something more visual. And Dean, you want to speak to that so

[00:10:59.20] spk_0:
we can go to the visual. But, but let’s get to some key metrics because uh and, and maybe visualizations may help. I’m not dismissing that but and this is perfect because you, you two are uh talking to the guy who took uh accounting for poets in in college. I mean, I mean, all I can remember is assets, equal liabilities plus owners’ equity. I never understood how the two columns could come out to be equal. It just seemed like magic to me. It seemed like a bunch of lies and magic. I don’t know how the two numbers that the columns were supposed to always equal to come out to be the same to me. They sound opposite assets and my abilities. But you don’t have to explain. You don’t, you don’t have to help me pass my college, my college accounting course. But let let’s get to some like basic metrics. What, what, what are some, I don’t know, four or five key numbers or key trends there, there’s not a specific number that, that leaders and board members need to track.

[00:12:22.98] spk_3:
Well, that’s a, it’s a great question and I think, and you, you hit the nail on the head. Tony is sometimes with some boards, it’s even an educational process on what a balance sheet is. What are assets? What are our liabilities? What are net assets? What are unrestricted, net assets versus temporary restricted net assets and then the statement of activities and the statement of cash flows. So we’ve even found before we even get to the ratios of doing an education and have it be a continuing education process for the boards just to help them read a financial statement at a very basic level, mind you but, but this helping them understand, you know, assets is what, what you own and liabilities is what you owe and net assets is what you’re worth and sometimes just the principles of that and then once they have that base education, start looking at things of like their current ratio, which is a pretty common, you take a look at your current assets against your current liabilities and assess where you’re at. And typically we like to recommend to most organizations uh that that current ratio be uh be at least two that you have at least $2 of current assets to, to every dollar of current liabilities that should give you at least some cushion, not a whole lot mind you, but at least some cushion to whether uh any changes on a period to period basis is a great one.

[00:12:32.92] spk_0:
Ok, so that’s what you call it, the current current ratio, assets to assets over liabilities of assets to liabilities,

[00:12:48.88] spk_3:
current assets, current liabilities and when I say current assets, any assets that, um, that aren’t held like in buildings or, or any long term investments or that type of thing, things that can be easily converted,

[00:13:21.60] spk_0:
liquid have some, you know, you can liquidate them within two weeks or a month or something like that. Not a building. But, but, you know, I don’t know, I can’t think of an example but, uh, ok, something that you could, so that if your liabilities got worse then because you, you like to see a 2 to 1, uh, uh, assets, liquid assets to, to liabilities as a minimum as a, as a minimum

[00:13:23.38] spk_3:
and the current liabilities would be anything you have due in the next year. So that would be any typically in your accounts payable and bills you have to immediately. And then also if you have a mortgage, any, any liabilities that you have over the next 12 months or if you have a loan or other obligations that you have to others outside the organization.

[00:14:02.26] spk_2:
And it’s really for the board to understand if you don’t have a good current ratio, if you don’t have at least that 2 to 1, you know, what if it’s 1 to 1, um, you know, really what, what that is saying, or what abort should interpret that to mean is we have no flexibility. You know, we all of our assets are now spoken for because of our liabilities. How do we operate this organization going forward? How do we deliver any mission when we have no capability of investing any additional assets and programs?

[00:14:25.24] spk_0:
1 to 1 sounds treacherous. It is treacherous or less. I mean, it could, could be less than one too.

[00:14:50.15] spk_2:
We’ve absolutely had experiences with organizations who are less than one and it really can handcuff that organization from being able to sometimes even being able to operate for, for the long term. I mean, that’s when we start to get in to have the conversation about, can you sustain this? How long can you sustain this organization with this kind of financial picture?

[00:15:27.96] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Donor box. You’ve heard the testimonials, easy set up, fast checkout QR codes simple for your donors and incredible results like you’ve gone to 10 18 70% increase in donations. If you’re looking for a fast flexible and donor friendly fundraising platform for your organization. Check out donor box, donor box dot org. Now back to financial literacy for your C suite and board.

[00:15:33.82] spk_0:
All right. So that’s great. The current ratio sounds critical. What’s a, what’s another valuable benchmark for, for, for leaders leadership to, to be tracking?

[00:16:25.01] spk_3:
I think another time they one is days of, of calculating how many days of cash that you have on hand. And the reason I say timely is just in the matter of last week, uh, nonprofits who received federal funding were staring down the barrel of a federal government shutdown. Um And so some nonprofits either whether they’re government funded or even not government funded. If you lose a ma major funder or your, your pipeline of funds is stopped because congress uh is failing to act and improve a budget or approve continuing resolution. How many days of cash do you have on hand to continue those operations? To make payrolls to pay your immediate bills? So that’s again, taking a look at your liquid cash or things that could be easily converted to cash and then taking a look at your expenses that you have and try and calculating an average daily expense,

[00:16:36.16] spk_0:
average daily.

[00:16:57.36] spk_3:
And so you take a look at your total cash. You take a look at your average daily expense, uh and then you come up with a number and typically depending on the organization for most government funded nonprofit organizations, we typically like to see 30 to 90 days of cash on hand. Meaning if there’s all of a sudden, a sudden sudden stoppage, uh they can continue for another 1 to 3 months for other non profit organizations. Uh We typically like to see up to 100 and 80 days. So up to a six month, it can sometimes be difficult for government funded because a lot of government funded organizations are reimbursement based. The government asked to spend the money and then you get the money from

[00:17:16.38] spk_0:
that. But what instance would it be where you want it to be more like 100 and 80 versus 30?

[00:19:11.62] spk_2:
Well, again, I think that then again, this is a great opportunity for the board to really think about what are our sources of revenue, what are the risks of losing some source of revenue? And therefore, you know, if, if the risks of a source of revenue, either drying up or needing to change are high, then you would want to set a benchmark or a target for a greater number of days uh of cash on hand or some, you know, some boards who want to, you know, just be more prudent and look to an unknown future. They, they may just want to say, hey, we want to set aside six months of operating cash in a reserve fund so that if something does happen, we already have it. We don’t have to worry. We, we can go on business as usual because we’ve created a rainy day fund. If something has happened. But one thing I wanna mention on this as well, tony is there are organizations, there are non profit organizations we’ve encountered who have too much cash. And the risk there is if you are going out to donors, private foundations, corporations, individuals and continuing to solicit contributions from them. And they wanna look at your financial performance before they make a decision if they see that the organization is sitting on a whole lot of cash. The obvious question they’re gonna ask is why do you need my money? You got all this cash in the bank. Why should I give you anything? You know? So there’s a danger on the flip side too?

[00:19:41.99] spk_0:
Ok. Ok, good. All right. So risk management, uh but operational management as well. All right. What a current ratio, days of cash? I love these, you know, let, let’s identify like half a dozen or something. What, what’s another, I’m not, it doesn’t have to be six but, you know, some decent numbers. So that, so that people know, you know. All right, here’s, here’s the numbers that, that this board wants to track on a quarterly basis and we, so we want to see not just the current but the trend also. So if we identify a problem with days of cash in, uh, in Q one of, of 24 do we see a difference by Q two or three? You know, are we improving? So what else, what else besides these two metrics?

[00:22:05.35] spk_2:
So another one that, um, seldom gets looked at, but it needs to be looked at a lot more is what we would call fundraising efficiency. So, really, but that is looking at it, it’s, it’s taking the total amount, you know, choose a period of time and how much money did you raise through contributions? You know, et cetera in that period of time. And what did it cost you internally to raise that? So, if you raised a million dollars in the last six months, that’s great. What did you spend, if you spent a million dollars to raise a million dollars, you’re not very efficient in your fundraising methods. So you really need to start to break that down and, and start finding out what are the diff, you know, what are the different sources of revenue you’re raising? How are you going about it and, and break it down to? What does it cost us to raise $1 of revenue? If it’s, it’s, if it’s a dollar to dollar, something’s not efficient, you know, you, and there are different metrics that you can measure against, you know, and it depends, you know, if you’re doing a fundraising event, for example, that’s one of the most costly types of fundraising that nonprofits engage in you. The organization is lucky if it, if it makes 15 cents on the dollar. In other words, it may cost 85 cents for every dollar raised in a fundraising event. Whereas though it takes longer, it takes a longer period of time to solicit grants from private foundations. The return on the time spent is far greater. It may only be, you know, maybe 10 cents of expense for every dollar that you can be awarded in private foundation grants. So again, you gotta break it down and figure out, you know, the organization needs to understand where does it want to put its the resources that it is committing to fundraising um uh activities.

[00:23:11.89] spk_0:
And this is, this is commonly referred to, as you mentioned it in passing cost to raise a dollar. What does it cost us to raise, to raise a dollar? Um The, the, you know, there’s a, there’s a lot of uh our confusion about or uncertainty about what to what to include in the costs. So, you know, you mentioned grants, Jerry. So, you know, you have a grants researcher and writer, so his her or their, you know, direct cash compensation, all their benefits, right? You know, that that’s fair to lump in. Uh if I would say, you know, an individual fundraising, all the, all the major gift officers that you have all their direct cash, all their co comp usually is another 25 30 maybe 35% depending how generous you might be. Uh So you can include their cash and their compensation, um their benefits. Um But then beyond that, you know, what’s what, what’s, what’s fair game to include? That seems to be a lot of it seems to be a lot of open discussion about what belongs in there.

[00:23:56.44] spk_2:
What? Well, uh I would be asking the organization, what are you spending on marketing and advertising and where are you spending it? You know, are you doing direct solicitations via either the old traditional mailing solicitations or using social media for doing solicitations. Are you meeting, you know, do you have gift officers who are meeting one on one with uh potential contributors? And what does that cost? You know, are you, are you buying meals? Are you, you know, do you have, are you spending any kind of money on donor relations, you know, gifts or any, any other, you know, what do you spend to acknowledge gifts and that sort of thing? All of that needs to be considered. Yes, you’re right.

[00:24:26.63] spk_3:
And a piece that’s that I’ve seen excluded that, that I would recommend not excluded is, is just the administration, administrative instru infrastructure because that fundraising department is gonna use the finance and accounting team is gonna use the hr team is gonna use the, the it team. So I don’t, although I don’t like the term overhead, it’s overhead is making sure that your fundraising area, all people that you had mentioned, tony are also being attributed that they can’t exist in a vacuum. They use the organizational resources in order to get their job done as well. So you have all the direct costs that Jerry had mentioned and the staffing costs, there’s also uh an infrastructure cost just to be a part of the organization that should be attributed to that fundraising

[00:25:01.56] spk_0:
as well. Right, proportionally proportionally. Absolutely. Right. So, you know, finance 20% of finances time maybe uh booking gifts, let’s say, let’s say finance books it and there’s not a, there’s not a uh uh AAA data processor, you know, a data processing function in the fundraising team that finance attributes to 15 or 20% of its work to, to the work of fundraising. So 15% of that financial overhead that, that finance team like, like like that, is that right? Is that

[00:25:31.27] spk_3:
you absolutely right. And that ensures, especially if you receive grants and even more specifically government grants that ensures that you’re not charging those finance costs that 20% to a grant. That that would would absolutely be, it would be a contract violation if you were charging some of those fundraising costs to a funding source that says, you know what, that’s not allowable, you can’t do that. So it’s making sure that those costs are identified appropriately and proportionately. I like that term that you used to each of the areas that, that, that finance or hr department serves.

[00:25:59.24] spk_2:
I think we, we, we can’t forget some of those easily forgettable costs. You know, think about how does money move these days, it’s moving electronically and through credit card transactions and all of those have a cost and again, those are often overlooked as part of your fundraising expense. You know, the cost to process all of those credit card gifts.

[00:26:32.15] spk_0:
Ok. Yeah, fair. Right. All the, all the back end whatever apps you subscribe to or platforms that are supporting you, whether it’s mailchimp on the male side or, you know, give butter on the, on the, uh, on the donation processing side or, you know, whatever. All right. All right. All right. So we got three. Any uh what other, other critical metrics for leadership

[00:29:00.57] spk_3:
management and fundraising expense is another one. We take a look at this one can be some controversial. Uh, because I think there’s different uh uh ways on on assessing what, pardon me, what is appropriate and what’s not appropriate. But that’s really how much is the organization spending on management and administration. And we typically include fundraising in that, uh, in that overall versus how much is it spending on programs spending on, on direct mission. Uh, and that really has a wide range and it really depends on where the organization is at. So when I say right, wide range at the, at the low end, I would say 7 to 9% the very low end. So that means out of every dollar 7 to 9 cents is going to support, uh, fin or going to support management administration, fundraising. Um, anything lower than that would indicate to that you’re probably not spending enough on your infrastructure. You might be operate a little bit like that. But, but, but it’s, it would be rickety, it’s not sustained, sustained. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, and then that can range all the way up to 40%. Uh, and depending on where the organization that could be higher. Um Especially if it’s a new organization uh where you are spending on infrastructure to get it up and running. But once you approach 40% or 50% then all of a sudden you’re spending more or approaching to spend more on your management and administration that you’re actually spending on. The reason you’re there is to, is to achieve your mission and fulfill your vision. Um And, and the reason why I say it’s a little bit controversial is, is um some funders still today, see the lower number, the better. That’s not always the case for the reason I just spoke about. Uh, but part of it, whether the number is right or not, it’s more making sure the organization and its leadership know what their number is and where it’s tracking, uh work with a client the other week where um theirs is in the 30 which is fine for their organization, but it’s been tracking up over the last three years. And so I said, I don’t know if I would put a, uh a red, you know, to use a color code. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have your indicator or your dashboard like blinking red yet, but it might be starting to glow a little bit yellow saying, you know, keep an eye on this. Uh and, and understand what those costs are. Um And if there’s an opportunity uh that, that needs to be addressed uh or a challenge that needs to be addressed at some point in the future?

[00:29:16.96] spk_0:
Yeah. Are these, are these management and fundraising costs just creeping up, you know, unwittingly or, you know, on the flip side, there may be a conscious investment may maybe we’re investing in some administration and infrastructure for launch of a new program in 18 months. So we’re, we’re investing for the future. So it’s intentional but uh uh you know what’s going on? What is the reason?

[00:30:04.27] spk_2:
And tony, what you just said, that’s the question board members need to ask. So if they’re seeing these indicators creep up like we’ve talked about a responsive board needs to say why and then it’s the duty of management to know the story to be able to explain why. And then the board can say, ok, we get it, we understand we’re backing it, we’re behind you or it can also be the duty of the board to say, hey, stop one second here. Um we need to discuss this further because we’re not necessarily um certain that what’s happening in practice that we’re ok with

[00:30:28.45] spk_0:
so so this one is a ratio management and fundraising expense to program expenses

[00:30:34.48] spk_2:
to total expenses. You want to take it as a percentage of your total? Oh

[00:30:49.14] spk_0:
to total. Oh ok. Oh to total. All right. Oh because then because then what’s left is devoted to presumably. Ok. Ok. Ok. Yeah so that I just want to make sure, you know, again, accounting for poets. So the, so the denominator there is, that’s your, your annual, your annual budget total, your total expenses is everything, is everything. That’s your, that’s your annual, your annual budget, right? It’s your

[00:31:07.23] spk_2:
annual, it’s your budget. You’re operating your total budget, including all your program expenses. Absolutely.

[00:31:14.44] spk_0:
Of course. Program. Yeah. All right.

[00:32:02.84] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kila increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kila. The fundraisers. CRM maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser. CRM goes beyond a data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth bila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals. Like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:33:26.24] spk_0:
Thank you, Kate Oklahoma City. If you are near there, I’m gonna be there in uh November from November 5th to the eighth. I’m speaking at the Sarky Foundation conference. If you’re in Oklahoma, you may very well know the Sarkies Foundation. Uh So if you’re in the area, if you would like to get together, I don’t know, coffee, lunch, drinks. Let me know again, November 5th to eighth. Um staying right in downtown, you can get in touch. Well, you could just use a simple email is the best way. Tony at tony-martignetti dot com. Uh, if you forgot my name, then you’ll, you’ll forget my email. So that’s not gonna work. Um, well, I guess you have to remember my name too to go to my site. If you want to use the contact page at the site, you’ll have to remember my name again. Uh, it’s tony-martignetti and the site is tony-martignetti dot com. So, I guess one way or the other, well, if we’re gonna get together, it would be nice if you could remember who I am that I would, I’d, I’d be grateful, you know, I’d be grateful. I promised to remember who you are. So, one way or the other get in touch, love to get together with you if you are in the Oklahoma City area and that is Tony’s take two K.

[00:33:34.82] spk_1:
Can you imagine, like going out to meet with someone for coffee and they’re just like, who are you again? Yeah. Just give me the free coffee. Who are you? I

[00:33:38.01] spk_0:
know, I’ve heard your name. I know, I’ve heard your name but, right. And you’re buying the coffee, right? What’s, what’s your name? You, you’re picking up the tab, right? Ok. No, I’m sure that’s not. I’m sure that’s not gonna happen.

[00:33:49.59] spk_1:
Giving people free coffee.

[00:33:51.76] spk_0:
Oh, no, I’ll pick up the check. Yeah. No, I, that part, that part will happen. Yeah,

[00:33:57.33] spk_1:
that sounds good. If you’re a

[00:33:58.71] spk_0:
listener, I’ll buy you coffee. Sure.

[00:34:02.36] spk_1:
We’ve got Buku but loads more time. Let’s go back to financial literacy for your c suite and board.

[00:34:12.46] spk_0:
Are there any other key metrics? Yeah.

[00:35:04.22] spk_2:
And I don’t know if I would define this as a metric, but it is certainly something that should be paid attention to and it’s called the composition of your net assets. So in non profit organizations, net assets have to be divided in two buckets. One bucket is what you call your unrestricted or without donor restriction. And then you have a bucket that is with donor restriction. And it’s really important to be certain that you understand what’s in each of those buckets in total. So again, a risky situation for a non profit organization is if they, if they see that a very large percentage of their net assets are in the bucket with donor restriction, that means they have some, they are limited in what they can do with those.

[00:35:10.43] spk_0:
Jerry. Is that essentially your endowment? It

[00:36:08.29] spk_2:
could be, yeah, endowments would be with donor restriction or we have the other category where you know, a donor places some kind of what we call a temporary restriction on a contribution. So either it has to be used for a specific program that the donor has identified, they want it used for, or there can be a time restriction where they say I’m gonna give you $300,000 but you, that’s to be used over the next three years. So now they’ve placed a time restriction on that contribution. So those have to be really carefully monitored. And this is one of the areas that we see so many non profits misunderstanding, um how to do that because what happens when you get money in the door, many nonprofits just deposit it all in the same bank account. So now you have one bank account that is, that has your restricted and your unrestricted dollars commingled. And if you’re not tracking that the risk of spending those restricted dollars outside of what the donor’s intent was, is very high.

[00:36:56.81] spk_0:
Now, now you’re getting into potentially illegal territory because so many of the states, maybe it’s all, but many, many of the states have the uni have adopted the uniform, uh management, uniform prudent Funds Management Act, for instance, a mi a uniform prudent management of Institutional Funds Act or they’ve ident they’ve adopted either the, the, the recommended uh unified statute or, or something similar to it. And there are, there are state laws around how around only spending the way donors have told you that they want to spend.

[00:37:58.13] spk_2:
That’s absolutely correct. And that’s what that is an enorm, an enormous risk. The other part that I find risky, I just, um, was speaking with a group of, of board members and executive directors a couple of weeks ago and I had an example that I wanted them to, to see if they could interact with it in the, in the example that I gave them was fictitious, but that fictitious nonprofit had 90% of their net assets were donor restricted or in that donor restricted bucket and only 10% unrestricted. And so my question was, how do you operate this organization on only 10% of your net assets? How can you operate? And you know, that’s again, something that, that is not clearly understood and so many mistakes are made in those areas and nonprofits potentially get themselves into very hot water as you just described.

[00:38:07.12] spk_0:
I mean, that’s gonna show up too in, in another metric like days of cash,

[00:38:11.67] spk_2:
it will days of cash

[00:38:13.12] spk_0:
might be like four.

[00:38:15.02] spk_2:
That’s absolutely right. Um And again, a mistake that many non profits make when they are calculating their days of cash, they’re calculating all of the cash, not just the unrestricted. And we, we emphasize this with our clients over and over again. Let us help you calculate the days of cash, but we’re just looking at the unrestricted.

[00:38:38.61] spk_0:
Yeah, because, right, because there’s a restriction on all the rest, right?

[00:39:33.06] spk_2:
One other thing in terms, you know why this is important and, and I have a client that relies heavily, heavily heavily on um private foundation funding. That’s great. And they’ve been very successful at getting those sources of revenue, but they mostly come with restrictions. And so if a if a non profit is putting an overemphasis on getting that kind of revenue and it’s always restricted. They, they are handcuffing themselves because that they’re only allowed to spend that money on certain things and then you have nothing left to pay for infrastructure or administrative or fundraising costs. You’ve got to, you know, you’ve got to balance out your unrestricted contributions in that as well. You’re not gonna be, is to

[00:39:36.08] spk_3:
be a strategic issue. There. There, it gets back to that duty of care. They’re making a strategic miscalculation, how they’re pursuing funds as,

[00:40:14.14] spk_0:
as valuable as the restricted funds are. You know, it’s not like we’re, we’re not discouraging, seeking restricted fund. I do plan to giving fundraising, some of those dollars are in trusts and, and those trusts or even the wills, you know, occasionally, not, not usually, but occasionally come with restrictions. It’s devoted to, you know, palliative care. It’s devoted to the, the children’s program, et cetera. Uh So, but those, so those are valuable, but I understand the point of being very conscious of the, the composition of your net assets. The, the what, what, what you, what again, it’s a ratio, what your, what your unrestricted to restricted net assets look like and, and are you ham hamstringing yourself?

[00:41:06.14] spk_3:
Yeah, and another ratio uh just to tag on to it, once you figure it out that composition, you take a look at your liquid unrestricted net assets and you look at that number against your total debt. So not only your current liabilities, but your total debt and really gives the board and the executive director. So it’s often referred to as Luna, so, liquid unrestricted net assets uh to debt. And it really takes a look at how much do we have, how much are we relying on ourselves versus how much are we relying on others to fund our operations? Um And again, it’s, there’s not necessary. Well, I mean, there’s a bad number you don’t want to be insolvent, um, and have more debt than, than, than unrestricted net assets. But you, it’s a number that, that should be known within the organization if you’re, uh, and that should, that number should be two or greater sort of similar to the current

[00:42:00.51] spk_0:
ratio, the liquid, liquid unrestricted net assets. All right, let’s break that down. Liquid, we can, it’s cash or we can get it to cash easily, unrestricted Jerry and I were just talking about that the restrictive versus unrestricted, the composition of your net assets, uh, net assets. All right. So it’s, it’s not just liquid unrestricted net assets. So, what, what’s, what’s a non, what’s a non cash net asset? Isn’t to me that just sounds like cash. Well, it must not be,

[00:42:22.41] spk_2:
again, it isn’t always just cash because what else could it be again if we, if we remember the basic formula that your assets are what you own, the liabilities are what you owe and the difference are your net assets. Well, in the, in the group of assets, you can have all your fixed assets if you have a building that has a, you’ve got that as a value in your assets. So, so that’s an asset that could be flowing down into your unrestricted net assets, but it’s not. So you can only look at the liquid portion.

[00:42:39.65] spk_3:
Another great example would be

[00:42:51.53] spk_0:
wait, I gotta, I gotta hold you off. Dean, hold on, hold that thought. Don’t, I don’t wanna hold the thought, write it down if you, I don’t want to miss your point, but I don’t understand what, aside from cash, what, what else could be a liquid, unrestricted net asset aside from cash.

[00:42:58.64] spk_2:
Um, if you’ve got, if you have any kind of investment funds that can be converted, if you’re carrying any receivables, those

[00:43:07.37] spk_0:
fairly liquid, right? You’re expecting you, you’re expecting, right? You’re expecting some grant or receivable. We all know what receivables are. Ok? Ok. All right. Thank you. Examples. Help again. Accounting for poets. Ok. Um, go ahead, Dean. You were gonna make a point.

[00:44:11.50] spk_3:
Oh, and then another thing that you should exclude on the current asset side or any prepaid expenses that the organization might have. And depending on the organization that, that might be significant and prepaid expenses would be if you paid your insurance a year ahead of time or if you had your website, um, uh, uh, costs or other costs for software license fees are a great one where you pay for a year or two or three and you write the check all at once, you’ve committed the check. But a, a gap says you have to record that as a prepaid expense. And you only recognize the, let’s say it’s over a year time, you only recognize 1/12 of that expense over the year. So if there’s a prepaid expense on your, on your balance sheet, you wanna be, you will want to exclude that from that calculation because that money is already out the door even though it’s,

[00:44:17.58] spk_0:
we’re getting a little into the weeds now a little bit. That’s about you mentioned gap. I, I know remind listeners what, what gap is otherwise I gotta put you in jargon jail.

[00:44:29.22] spk_3:
Generally accepted accounting principles.

[00:44:59.21] spk_0:
Gap and all, all your audits and all your statements are done under, under gap under generally accepted accounting principles they’re signed to by the, the, the firm that does the audit or the financial statement or whatever. All under gap. All right. Careful honest, tony. All right. Yeah. All right. Parole, parole is parole comes easy. Um, but you got to serve some time. It’s not probation, it’s parole. Um, ok. We, we’ve identified five. Ok, we got another one.

[00:45:24.80] spk_2:
We have another one. So I’m gonna start this out by saying that there is still misconception in many people’s minds, whether they work in nonprofits or they’re, they contribute to nonprofits that the term non profit means the organization can’t make any money. So I just wanna start this out by saying that, um, designation of non profit, that’s a tax status. That’s all it is. It’s a tax status. It’s not a business model. Is this

[00:45:38.75] spk_0:
misunderstanding still out there? Oh,

[00:47:40.65] spk_2:
oh, greatly out there. It’s still out there. So the ratio that we, we want to communicate is we want to measure, are you making any profit? You know, do you have a surplus? We don’t, we don’t necessarily use the term profit, we’ll call it surplus. Um And, and we want, uh especially boards to be concerned whether or not the organization is planning for through their budgeting process. Are you planning for a surplus? And in your actuals, are you actually making it? Are you, are you getting there? And if you’re not, there’s a problem that needs to be addressed because this is all about sustainability. If the organization is not making a surplus, they can’t sustain themselves or grow. And so we really look for a ratio of about, you know, a safe ratio is about 5%. I think that’s what we’re looking at now. 5% 5% surplus on your net revenues. You know, so if you, if you bring in a million dollars in revenue, we feel a safe place is, is to be showing a, a $50,000 surplus on that. And if that’s not happening, there needs to be a discussion, why, why isn’t that happening. Now, I have worked with clients who have over many, many years accumulated a lot of unrestricted net assets and they may have a year where they are planning to have a deficit and there’s a reason that they’re planning, they’re gonna invest in something new. And so they’re going to commit some of their accumulated unrestricted net assets as an investment. That’s ok. We’re not saying that can’t be done, but you can’t live that way forever.

[00:47:44.09] spk_0:
Ok. Surplus profit.

[00:47:47.23] spk_2:
It has to be, it needs to be measured.

[00:47:50.54] spk_0:
That sounds like that sounds like your investment capital investment in new ventures, maybe, uh a new whatever, maybe a new staff position or two. I mean, that, that’s, that’s your growth, isn’t that your growth money? It’s

[00:48:12.37] spk_2:
your growth money. You’re, you’re exactly right. And if nonprofits are not planning for that, yeah, there really is no standing still. If you’re not planning for growth, you’re actually planning for contraction.

[00:48:40.55] spk_0:
Yeah, because inflation is going to erode your erode you every year, 3 to 5 to 8% or, you know, however bad it might be. Uh, yeah. Ok. Right. So it’s, it’s just, it’s just bad business to say we, we, we, we need a, we, it costs us a half a million dollars to run this organization each year. So we need to raise a half a million dollars. We need to have a half million dollars of revenue of some of some sort. Right. No, 5 50 or 600 or 6 50.

[00:49:08.37] spk_2:
Right. That’s exactly right. Yeah. I mean, it seems so, um, intuitive, you know, like it should come simple. But again, in, in, I think Dean and I would both attest that in our experience with nonprofit clients is that is often overlooked. It’s, it’s not discussed. So, when we’re presenting financial information, again, we don’t have to give all. We don’t have to go into the weeds and give the recipe for the soup of how we got there. But we better be showing and the board better be looking for. Is there a surplus? Are we performing?

[00:49:28.78] spk_0:
Ok. And sometimes you’re, you’re pushed back on because people say that we shouldn’t have a surplus. We should be spending everything we earn to help, to help our community. We, we’ve got, we’ve got Children going hungry. Everything we earn has to go to those kids

[00:49:53.35] spk_2:
and, and, and, and, and it’s not as prevalent as it used to be. But, you know, that, that fear that if we, we have an audit that shows a surplus or we file a 9 90 tax return that shows a surplus and the public is viewing that, that they’re gonna go nuts over it. Um, now again, it’s all relative if, if you brought in $2 million and you have a million dollar surplus. Well, yeah, I’d probably be a little bit nuts about that. You know, why do you have a 50% surplus.

[00:50:21.64] spk_0:
All right, you’d like to see at least 5%.

[00:50:24.30] spk_2:
We, we feel 5% is a safe target.

[00:50:27.62] spk_0:
5% of the net revenues for the, from the year for the year.

[00:50:31.54] spk_2:
We feel that’s a safe, safe starting place.

[00:50:48.64] spk_0:
Ok. You know, the irony of some of this is that, um, people look at these, I, I guess I’m, I’m, I’m gonna lump board members. I mean, you know, board members look at some, some of these numbers and they, they would run their business the same way. Those of those who are in business or have their own businesses, they would do the exact same thing. But, but they don’t, but they apply a different set of rules to the nonprofit. No, it shouldn’t have any growth capital. No, it shouldn’t be able to invest. It should be spending every, we should be spending every dime we earn, but they wouldn’t do that to their own family business.

[00:51:29.81] spk_2:
Correct. Yeah, that’s so true. What you say is so true, tony. And, and sometimes, you know, again, I think as a, an outsourced CFO we find ourselves delivering that very message to the board, challenging them on that, that business model that they’re, that, that they are purporting that the business model should be a zero bottom line and be, we just push back and challenge that and, and try to help educate why that’s not a good business model. They be able to feed the

[00:51:49.12] spk_0:
kids. Pardon me? Yeah. And you know, you wouldn’t do that in your own business. You may be able to feed the kids this year and maybe next year. But wouldn’t you like to be able to feed them five years from now? You’re on a trajectory that’s gonna make that very, very, very difficult.

[00:53:09.46] spk_3:
Yeah. And to add on to that and you alluded to this earlier, tony, you were talking about tracking it over time, you say, are we, are we, is this metric or this uh ratio improving, not improving and or not improving? And where boards and leadership can really take it to the next level where I’m going is establishing targets, what’s important to your organization. And as a board saying, you know, we’re at only at 20 days of cash on hand, let’s establish a target of 50 days of cash on hand and I’m making those numbers up and then reporting progress to your target. So similarly on a budget, on a financial budget, you put together, you’re operating a budget, you’re evaluating how you’re operating uh during a year or a month, but establishing targets for each of those ratios and maybe it’s all, maybe it’s all six that we talked about, maybe it’s two or three that are most important, but having that conversation and putting longer term plans because you’re not going to solve all the world’s problems in a year. But having longer term plan and establishing a target and then measuring against the target? And are we achieving that we’re not achieving that? What adjustments and why is that target is what it is and having that conversation and really tracking almost having like a budget for the ratio or, you know, or a target for the

[00:53:16.31] spk_0:
ratio. Well, that’s how these can become management tools. You’re absolutely right. Management and oversight.

[00:54:31.86] spk_2:
Yep. Yes, that, that’s exactly right. Um, and I agree with what Dean is saying, you know, really the kind of the next step is besides reporting these on a regular cadence, whether that’s monthly or quarterly, start to look at the trend, you know, you need to build out trends. Um So where, where were we two or three years ago compared to where we are today? Have we made the progress that we said we wanted to make? And if not, why not, you know, do we need to change something about the style of how we operate the organization? You know, all of that becomes part of the conversation? And I think that it’s possible for board members to get there with that part of the conversation if they are being provided financial reports that they understand that give them these snapshots, these dashboards that we’ve talked about so that they’re not looking at pages and pages of numbers that make no sense, give them something that, that they can make these assessments very easily and then have the discussion and decide what actions need to be taken.

[00:54:38.35] spk_0:
All right. So it sounds like we’re, we’re comfortable with these six metrics.

[00:55:01.51] spk_2:
Yeah, I mean, and there’s, you know, there are, there are all kinds of other metrics, but these are, you know, when you talk about some of the common ones that really what we try to focus on, get boards to focus on, get executive directors to focus on is w how can we help you measure the current financial condition and whether or not it’s going to be sustainable? Is your organization? Do you have the capability to be to sustain 35 years down the road?

[00:55:15.46] spk_0:
Ok. So we’re, we’re confident we’re in these six, we’re not, we haven’t left out anything critical, have we?

[00:56:07.83] spk_3:
I think we covered a lot of great bases and one of the reasons why we record why we, and like Jerry said, there are more, but all of these ratios, all of these data points, the beauty of these is, these are publicly available from other organizations via their form 9 99 90 is informational return that all non non profit organizations of a certain size are required to file and it’s publicly available information. So if your ABC nonprofits and they’re trying to set those targets or trying to understand and understand where they’re at or how they’re doing it. Like, hey XYZ nonprofit across the street, let’s see what they’re doing. You can look at their 9 90 calculate their ratios as well and you can sort of evaluate and start to benchmark. Like, are, are we doing good in our sector? Are we not doing good in our sector? So, while I would recommend, and I’m sure would recommend is, is understand where you’re at. Um understanding where your brother and sister non profits are at is also a great bellwether to say, hey, are, are we doing well, are we not doing well with our peers in the organization? And it’s all publicly available information uh for other non profits as well?

[00:56:48.41] spk_0:
All right. Ok. Leaving it there. Then, Dean. All right, Martin and Lewis, Dean, Dean Del, you’ll find him on linkedin. Jerry Frick. Also on linkedin, their firm is at veracity pros dot com. Dean Jerry. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[00:56:51.68] spk_2:
Thank you, tony. It was

[00:57:26.93] spk_0:
really a pleasure. Oh, thank you. I’m glad listeners. I would like you to know that we had another show where we, we talked about a book devoted to board member, financial literacy and that was the May 31st 2021 show with Andy Robinson and Nancy Wasserman. Their book is the board members easier than you think, guide to nonprofit finances. So if you want to dive deeper into this, maybe buy a copy for each of your board members. Uh That’s a uh just a AAA further resource beyond this excellent conversation that Dean and Jerry and I just had

[00:57:45.73] spk_1:
next week, the surprising gift of doubt from the archive with Mark Pittman. If you missed any part of this weeks show,

[00:57:48.66] spk_0:
I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Don’t forget that name tony-martignetti

[00:57:55.82] spk_1:
or no coffee for you. We’re sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box. Fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box dot org.

[00:58:13.67] spk_0:
I still love that alliteration, fast flexible, friendly fundraising forms. All right, sorry.

[00:58:35.12] spk_1:
And by Kela, grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide. This music is by Scott Stein.

[00:59:02.18] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Please go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for October 9, 2023: Performance Improvement


Heather BurrightPerformance Improvement

Do you want to get the best out of your teams? That means getting the best from each player. Heather Burright recommends 360 Degree Feedback and she takes you full circle. She’s CEO of Skill Masters Market. (This originally aired on August 9, 2021.)


Listen to the podcast

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

I love our sponsor!

Donorbox: Powerful fundraising features made refreshingly easy.


Apple Podcast button




We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

Transcript for 661_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231009.mp3

Processed on: 2023-10-09T13:30:45.055Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket:
Path to JSON: 2023…10…661_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231009.mp3.766572740.json
Path to text: transcripts/2023/10/661_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231009.txt

[00:00:40.71] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. And I am feeling better about 95% to normal. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d suffer with leishmaniasis if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s coming?

[00:01:10.30] spk_1:
Hey, tony, this week it’s performance improvement. Do you want to get the best out of your teams? That means getting the best from each player. Heather Burright recommends 3 60 degree feedback and she takes you full circle. She’s CEO of skill masters market. This originally aired on August 9th, 2021. On Tony’s take two,

[00:01:12.64] spk_0:
one from the

[00:01:46.44] spk_1:
archive were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box dot org. And by Kela grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers crm visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is performance improvement.

[00:02:13.66] spk_0:
It’s my pleasure to welcome Heather Bur Wright, she is founder and CEO of Skill Masters Market, creating dynamic people centric solutions that drive business goals. She has 15 years of experience identifying core competencies that are needed to see real results and creating the learning strategies needed to develop them. The company is at skill masters market dot com and Heather is at Heather Burright. Heather. Welcome to nonprofit radio.

[00:02:22.80] spk_2:
Hey, tony, thanks for having me. It’s a

[00:02:37.38] spk_0:
pleasure. Absolute pleasure we’re talking about, we’re talking about performance improvement and you use this tool called 360 degree feedback. So we’re gonna start with the basics. What’s an overview of 360 degree

[00:03:07.78] spk_2:
feedback? Yeah, absolutely. Um So 360 degree feedback, a 3 60 assessment is a great way to get feedback. It’s exactly what it sounds like to get feedback with that 360 degree view. So you can invite people like your supervisor, your peers, your direct reports, um other colleagues or partners and you can get anonymous feedback all in one place and then you have some good comparison data. So you can see how you’re being perceived. Uh There’s also a self uh survey as part of that. So you can compare how you’re being perceived to how you’re perceiving yourself and it just gives you really rich information. So that as you start to think about, what do I want to work on? Where do I want to invest my time, my energy, my resources, you have some really good data to work with, to help inform that. So you can prioritize your professional development a little better.

[00:03:32.26] spk_0:
It sounds very interesting to uh compare what you think of yourself to what others think of you do. You uh have you, you’ve been doing this for many years, you see a lot of um disparities, uh a lot of incongruent between self assessment and the assessment that others have provided.

[00:03:54.63] spk_2:
There. There can be for sure. Um I actually, with 3 60 assessments, I feel like you’re

[00:03:59.79] spk_0:
living in deep denial. Maybe

[00:04:52.28] spk_2:
it happens with 3 60 assessments. I feel like um how you show up to different groups of people can intentionally be different. So what your supervisor sees may be different from what your direct report see or what your peers see and that might be OK. So it’s about taking that information, finding those discrepancies, finding that alignment and then interpreting it uh for your own, your own work, your own lifestyle and, and what, how you wanna be, you know, showing up to all of those different groups. I actually do something and it’s not for, for today’s conversation, but I actually do something called an intercultural development inventory, the I dia qualified administrator for them and that assesses uh intercultural confidence. And there’s actually uh I’ve seen a greater disparity in that assessment than in 3 60 assessment asses which typically assess more general or more common leadership competencies.

[00:05:12.82] spk_0:
OK. All right. So in the, in the intercultural intercultural assessment, people perceive themselves as more aware, sensitive conscious than, than they are perceived by others. Not surprised. Yes,

[00:05:18.43] spk_2:
we do that a lot. Right. We do. It’s why, for me that’s why, you know, we all think

[00:05:24.01] spk_0:
we all think we’re great people.

[00:05:26.17] spk_2:
We do and we are right there. We all have great skill sets and things that we can offer the world. But I think if you think about your to do list, right? A lot of us will tend to put too many things on our plate. And then we wonder why we can’t accomplish at all. It’s because our perception is not always matched to our reality.

[00:06:04.88] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah. Perception and reality, right can diverge greatly. OK? That could be, I mean, this could be fodder for therapy too. But, but when we’re talking about coaching, because coaching, you know, you need, uh I gather, you need somebody to help you assess all this input that’s coming in. And especially if you’re deeply divergent between what you think and what others think. Uh you know, you, I could see how coaching would be critical so that you don’t jump off a cliff with these results.

[00:07:04.51] spk_2:
Yes, absolutely. With 3 60 assessments, I recommend going through the assessment process, which just helps to increase kind of your own self awareness where you are, where you want to be and then working with a coach to help prompt you to action. So, in the awareness phase and you know, you’re taking this assessment process, it’s anonymous feedback. So it’s feedback that you’re not necessarily going get anywhere else. Most people aren’t gonna just walk up to you and say your communication skills are not as good as you think they are. So it’s feedback that you’re not necessarily going to get anywhere else and it can show that those discrepancies in that alignment, um which is really, really helpful, it brings a lot of self-awareness to the table. But then during that coaching session, you can start to identify action, focus on the action that you want to take. So you’re able to identify, you know, which skills are, are most essential to your current role. And how did you do on those skills or which skills are most essential to future role? If you wanna look at it from a future perspective, I know I wanna move into this other position or this other role. And so what skills are gonna be most important there? What do I need to work on to get there? And so you can start to consider what you might need to leverage. What are your strongest skills are? Uh but also what you might need to enhance as you move forward. And then those skills which are identifying with that coach uh can become part of a custom action plan that you have. So again, you’re able to prioritize your professional development a little more effectively.

[00:07:47.84] spk_0:
Ok. Um All right. So let’s take a step back. We, we get a little ahead, but that’s ok. Um, where, what’s the, all right. So you’ve already said this is confidential. It’s anonymous. All right. So it’s, it’s really the best information we’re gonna get. Um, it’s from all different, all different networks. So it’s people that are lateral to you, uh, working for you who you work for could be others. I mean, I don’t know, in nonprofits, might you go to, you go to board members? If there’s a relationship there, if there’s some liaison, work there or something, would you go to? Maybe donors, would you, donors, volunteers that the person is working with or is that really not appropriate to ask them to participate in?

[00:08:16.89] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ve not seen anybody go to donors, but definitely volunteers if you’re, if you’re working with them in a capacity where they’re going to see those skills at play, right? If they, if you’re not working with them in that way, they wouldn’t make a good feedback provider.

[00:08:30.94] spk_0:
Ok. All right. So volunteer. Yeah, donors, that seems like a little much to ask for someone to rate the person that you rate the fundraiser that you work with or something. Ok. Um, so let’s identify the benefits for the organization that would do a 3 60 assessment.

[00:09:38.71] spk_2:
Sure. Yeah. So what I love about assessments is that they are strategic uh but also compassionate, human centered, right? So when it comes to leadership development, um professional development is especially important. You want your leaders to be better, you want them to be stronger for your organization and you want them to perform well. So assessing on uh those common leadership competencies, gives a baseline that is both relevant to their work and to your organization and practical. Um But you also, if you think about the human Center piece of it, um your leaders also have dreams, they also have goals beyond just your their role at your organization. And so, uh by having the 3 60 assessment, you’re able to assess those things, those competencies that are important for your organization, but you’re also giving them some ownership and what they do with that information. And so they’re able to tailor the, the action plan that they’re gonna get out of this, they’re able to tailor that based on what their goals are within the organization as well. So whatever they decide to do will benefit the organization, but it will also be tailored to them. And so they, it will benefit themselves, you know, their own development as well.

[00:10:00.92] spk_0:
So I’m gonna ask about some outliers ha have you seen cases where the, the assessment was just so bad that the, the organization decided, you know, we, we gotta just let this person go like we just, we can’t, there’s no performance plan, there’s no action, there’s no action worksheet. That’s gonna, that’s gonna, that’s gonna bring this person along. It’s, it’s, it’s just

[00:11:07.34] spk_2:
hopeless. Yeah. So I have not, uh my recommendation is not to use it to use a 3 60 assessment in a punitive way. Um And so you would only use a 3 60 assessment. If there’s someone that you want them to develop, you want to see them develop and grow within your organization. Um And in fact, I I recommend that the results are kept confidential between the participant and the coach and that no one else actually gets a copy of those results. I actually get that request a lot at the board level. If it’s the, it’s the CEO that’s going through um the assessment process, the board chair will, will want those results. My recommendation is, is not to do it that way. Um I also get a lot of um requests for the 3 60 assessment to be the performance review and that’s also not a great use of a 3 60 assessment. You wanna do the performance review separately and then one of their goals through that performance review process might be to complete a 3 60 assessment. But again, only if you’re really invested in them growing and developing as a leader, not as a way to, to sort of move them out of the organization,

[00:11:32.68] spk_0:
it’s counterintuitive, not using the assessment as a as performance uh evaluation tool. What, what why is that say? Say a little more about why that’s not recommended.

[00:12:06.47] spk_2:
Yeah, I think so for me. Um, I think giving the 3 60 assessment to someone that you um believe in and you are valuing their contributions, you’re gonna have a lot better outcome. They’re going to be more honest in the assessment process. Uh, their feedback providers are probably going to be more honest as well and then they’re able to have a good honest conversation with their coach and they’re able to kind of lean into that vulnerability without constantly thinking, I’m gonna get fired, right. It’s actually really good useful information to grow. Um And I would recommend 3 60 assessments for star performers. Um you know, just as much as I would for those that you are looking to develop for a particular reason.

[00:12:30.57] spk_0:
Ok. Ok. Um So how do we get started with this uh uh in the, in the organization? I mean, if we’re gonna suppose we’re gonna do this enterprise wide, I mean, that could mean, you know, 456 employees for some listeners, it may mean hundreds of employees. How do we start this? Yeah, where do we start?

[00:14:13.63] spk_2:
Yeah. So every organization is different, they’re going to approach it in a slightly different way. Um The I work with a vendor that hosts 3 60 assessments. So those assessments are already created, they’re standard, they exist for um different types of leadership. So whether it’s the, the CEO executive director or um whether it’s more of an di contributor in individual contributor or something in between, they have assessments um that are tailored to each of those different um types of roles within an organization. So I would, you know, first look at um how do you want to roll this out? Um A lot of organizations will start with maybe a senior leadership team to show that they’re, you know, modeling what they, what they, what they would ask of their other staff. Um And so they might start with a leadership team, um have a small group, go through this process and then look at adding some additional staff to that. Um The only thing that you would wanna consider really is um great or fatigue. So if in an organization, you’re going to be asking the same people to provide feedback to multiple people at the same time, um that can get a little bit fatiguing and then they might not be as honest or they might not take as much time um as they go through the assessment because they’re just trying to get through all of them. Uh So you want the readers, the people who are providing the feedback um to feel like they have the time and um you know, the energy to get through those assessments as well.

[00:14:32.73] spk_0:
Yeah, because if, if, if there’s a lot of people at the same level and you’re evaluating your peers, right? I mean, you could have to be doing a lot of these. All right. So how do you overcome that spread, spread out the time and give them more time to do. I mean, I suppose you have to do six or eight of these things.

[00:14:46.78] spk_2:
I would start with a smaller group and then as that group finishes, you could look at bringing in another group to complete the assessment.

[00:15:28.11] spk_1:
It’s time frame break donor box. You’ve heard the testimonials, easy set up fast checkout QR codes simple for your donors and incredible results like you’ve gone to 10, eighteen’s 70% increase in donations. If you’re looking for a fast flexible and donor friendly fundraising platform for your organization. Check out donor box, donor box dot org. Now back to performance improvement.

[00:15:31.56] spk_0:
So this is not something that sounds like it can be easily done in house. You, you’re saying you work with a vendor that already has these, these assessment tools published. It sounds like something that would be kind of hard to recreate in house and, and do and do. Well,

[00:16:08.09] spk_2:
I think it depends on just the resources of the organization. Uh There are really good off the shelf assessments where you don’t have to spend the money to create something that’s custom to your organization. You can a lot of um a lot of the vendors who offer off the shelf um assessments can also do custom assessments for your organization, but it’s, it’s a fairly resource heavy project um, because you wanna make sure that whatever gets created is statistically relevant. It’s a valid assessment and all of that. And so, um, to do that a lot of times it does take more time and more resources to make it happen.

[00:16:25.93] spk_0:
What happens if there’s an outlier in the, in the Raiders, like one person rates somebody so high or so low compared to the other six or eight people. That, that rate what, what happens to those outlier ratings.

[00:17:23.67] spk_2:
Yeah, that does happen from time to time. You’ll have somebody who, um, you know, every question just about is really high or really low. Um, you know, I, as a coach, um, I might ask the participant, um, if they have any thoughts about why that might be the case and we might have some conversation around, you know, why someone might be rating really high or really low. It is anonymous. So, unless it’s the supervisor, they’re probably not going to know who said, you know, who it is, that’s rating them that’s out there. Um, but you can have some good conversation that way. Sometimes there’s not, you know, anything that comes to mind that would make someone, um, be completely different than the other radio. And so, um, you know, you’re gonna kind of go with the, with the theme across and so if most people are rating you at a four and then one person at a one, perhaps that one person had one particular experience that they’re, they’re, you know, calling to mind if they’re completing the assessment. And so that’s causing those scores because

[00:17:45.64] spk_0:
the person, you, you, you keep their car when they took your parking space to the right,

[00:17:52.72] spk_2:
you never know, you never know. Uh And so it’s, it’s information um but it’s not necessarily the focus because the theme is that most people are, are rating you in that four.

[00:18:52.95] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kela increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kela. The fundraisers, CRM maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser, Crm goes beyond a data management platform. It’s designed with unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit, Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals like never before. It’s time for Tonys take two. Thanks, Kate.

[00:24:10.82] spk_0:
I’m replaying the Tony’s take two from the show that Heather Burright appeared on. I was talking about sharing non profit radio, but I went into a, a bit of a tangent about waiting tables and sharing tips. Here. It is, sharing is still caring. Who can you share a non profit radio with? I was thinking it could be a lackluster colleague or maybe somebody who’s in another non profit or you know, a friend who works elsewhere who you just happen to know is not up to speed mediocre, lackluster because we’re talking this week about performance improvement. So, whose performance do you want to improve? That’s the person you refer to nonprofit radio. They need to be listening. They got to up their game. They don’t want to be mediocre and lackluster any longer and you don’t want them to be, especially if they work in your shop, they’re dragging you down. It’s like when you used to, did you ever wait tables? Those are waited tables. If, if you did and sharing tips. Oh, that’s the worst. It was just last week. Um I wrapped it up. Yeah, just, just in just uh late July uh no years ago waiting tables and we shared tips, the mediocre people bring you down and you know who they are. You, you know, you can hear them at the adjacent tables. The adjacent station, I was always mediocre at one thing. I was terrible, worse than mediocre. I was always terrible at cappuccinos when somebody ordered a cappuccino. And I had a face that daunting high, highly polished copper machine with the nozzle for the milk and the foam and the, the knobs and the, they gotta press the espresso in right and it’s just the right pressure and the milk has to be the right temperature and this, this machine just scared the hell out of me just to look at the thing. I didn’t even like walking by it. I got, I, I would, I would get, I would get, I would get sweats just walking past it. Let alone, I had to face off with the thing when somebody ordered a cappuccino or God forbid, a table table of four or six. Yeah. Well, all round of cappuccinos. Oh, my God. Every other table in my station is gonna be half an hour late Now while I fight with this machine to get the milk to the right temperature and the foam and the right consistency and the wh cappuccinos my death. I really somebody who wrote a cappuccino. You sure you don’t want a Limoncello. I have a Limoncello on the house give you I’ll give the table around Limoncello. If you will, you alone will just not get a cappuccino. All right. That was my bane as a waiter. But so, so, but that didn’t bring the tips down cause everybody got free drinks because I hardly ever poured once I got smart. Of course, the house didn’t like it but they never knew. Um So you know, so the tips actually were, were better because I was given free drinks for everybody to bribe them away from a single cappuccino. So that aside the uh yeah, the sharing of tips, I hated it. I the, the, the, the, the poor performers were always dragging us down were killing us every night and I could hear them you know, that in low energy they forget what the specials are. They read the specials of their little, their, their parchment paper, little, little note pad because they couldn’t afford to buy a new one because their tips are so low because they’re so poor and they were gonna drag me down with them. Well, first of all I didn’t use the little book. I used to memorize the specials. I never liked looking at that because the thing gets red wine spilled on it. And you know, it’s, it wouldn’t get cappuccino on it because I didn’t know how to make them, but it might get milk on it as I was trying. So the poor performers, the poor performers in your nonprofit, I’m bringing it back. I’m bringing it back. Don’t worry. Uh You know, they’re dragging you down. So you got to refer them to non profit radio. That’s it. You want to raise the level of all the boats. Wait, you want to raise the level of the whole sea. Wait, you wanna raise, you wanna, you wanna raise all the boats, you gotta raise the sea. That’s what it is or the yacht basin. So your organization, you’re non profit, that’s the yacht basin. You gotta, you wanna raise all the boats, you gotta raise the sea. Refer these poor performers to nonprofit radio. That’s the point. That’s where I’m headed. All right, cappuccinos and Limoncello. Who can you refer non profit radio to I’d be grateful. Remember, board members too, if you got any friends, they’re board members. Board members are great listeners. They, they use it to stimulate conversation to stimulate thinking very valuable. Plus anybody who works for a nonprofit naturally. Thank you. Thanks for thinking about it. Who you can refer non profitt radio to? That is Tony’s take two. That is Tony’s take two Kate.

[00:24:15.55] spk_1:
You know, dad just got a new espresso and cappuccino machine. So when you come over for the holidays, we’re gonna learn how to make cappuccino. So you can’t, you know,

[00:24:38.92] spk_0:
I can practice, I can practice on the, on the, on that machine. All right, I’m telling you those things scared me. It’s got that long tube with the milk that, that the milk has to come out of and steam and froth and the knobs and everything.

[00:24:40.94] spk_1:
You’re gonna be an expert by the end of the holidays.

[00:24:44.12] spk_0:
Ok. Christmas cappuccinos. I’ll, I’ll be pouring them. All right.

[00:24:49.07] spk_1:
We’ve got, we’ve got just about a butt load more time. Let’s go back to performance improvement.

[00:25:01.75] spk_0:
And what form do people who are rated, get this information in? WW? Is it something quantitative or is it narrative or both or what, what are they seeing? What’s each person who gets rated seeing?

[00:25:34.04] spk_2:
Yeah, absolutely. So, um the vendor that I work with particularly, um and I think this is true of, of other vendors that I’ve seen as well. Um There is data that’s involved. So you will be able to see for each question um how you were rated, you’ll be able to compare those scores by the different R groups. Um A lot of times there is um an opportunity to roll that data up as well, so you can start to see overall what are my strengths and my development opportunities. Um And then there’s typically something um a little more qualitative um included as well where people can kind of open comments, provide feedback and you can spend some time looking at that as

[00:25:54.30] spk_0:
well. Ok. Ok. Um And, and let’s talk more about the, the coaching and the, and maybe the work plan that goes along with improving areas that aren’t so strong. Um How long does that last or what? What, what does that look like?

[00:26:55.70] spk_2:
Yeah, so um the assessment process itself uh can take a few weeks just to get that feedback. You know, you’re gonna do self assessment, you’re gonna invite your readers, they’re gonna go in, provide their feedback, it’s gonna generate the, the data, the report for you. Um And then the coaching session you want at least one that I would say is the absolute minimum. I thought this was right to go through that data. Um If you’re really looking to, to see that person um that participant make progress on their action plan, so they’re making progress towards their goals, then I definitely recommend looking at a longer term relationship with that coach because they can start to become an accountability partner and they can continue to prompt them to action. They can continue to help them think through how they’re gonna apply what they’re learning on the job. And so there’s just a lot of value there. Um, I would say that about that, um, does vary by organization as well. Um, but if you want to see, you know, those results, um, and see the action being taken. Um I would say at least three months um probably longer to, to watch that behavior start to change.

[00:27:33.84] spk_0:
Uh Tell us a story about an organization or it could be a person. Um I kind of like the organization level if you have a story like that, like where you saw, you know, you saw them go through this process and you saw improvement among key people in the organization and they don’t have to be senior leaders, but you saw, you saw improvement, you know, you saw a benefit come out of this, whatever, eight months later, a year later, a year and a half later, you know, share a little story.

[00:29:27.05] spk_2:
Yeah. So um for, I guess for anonymity sake, I can share my own story because I have been through the 3 60 assessment process um myself. Um If you like, so I, when I went through the 3 60 assessment process, um some of the feedback that I received was that I needed to use my voice more that I had, um, you know, good ideas when I spoke up and that I needed to, you know, speak up more and make sure that people heard and valued what, you know, whatever it was that I had to say. And it was something that I, it was a piece of feedback that I found very interesting because I felt like in some environments, I was pretty quick to speak up to, you know, take a lead in something um to have my voice heard. And then in other environments, I might be a little less likely to do that. And it just kind of depended on the situation. What um I was on a lot of cross functional project teams at the time. So, you know, what was my role on that project? Who was leading that project, that kind of thing? To me, it all felt very strategic about when I was um using my voice and, and when I wasn’t, but with that feedback, right, that’s information. So with that feedback, I was able to um start to think about how do I want to use my voice? And um when do I want to use my voice and what would it look like or what would it feel like to be heard in, in different settings? And uh through that process, I was able to um more intentionally start pick up um not just in meetings, but also, um you know, one on one with my supervisor and say, you know, hey, I’m interested in this or I wanna know more about this or I think we should do this or whatever the case is. And I was able to start using my voice a little more intentionally. And the within the organization, um and saw from a, from a career perspective, saw my own, my own career start to um open up and, and grow quite a bit from that.

[00:29:56.55] spk_0:
And so the feedback you got wasn’t as nuanced as you would have, you would have thought it would be like you said, certain situations, you were deli deliberately reticent to speak up and others, you were more vocal, but the feedback wasn’t that nuanced.

[00:30:31.97] spk_2:
Correct, correct. Because if my, if you think about like my peers, they’re seeing me in different environments or uh my partners, I was working on a lot of cross functional teams. So I had partners from all over the organization that were providing feedback. And so depending on which projects I was working on, I might have been leading the project or I might have been just a contributor on the project. And so depending on um what my role was, I was showing up differently in those settings,

[00:30:51.04] spk_0:
right? So each people, each person saw you differently. They didn’t, they didn’t see the full breath. But overall, you took it as I should speak up more, I should be more assertive, I

[00:30:52.06] spk_2:
guess Yeah, absolutely. And just think about how I’m being perceived as well, right, within a, within a meeting or, um, a team.

[00:31:06.28] spk_0:
And then how about developing an action plan? What, uh, what, what do you do that in conjunction with the coach or what ho how does that, how does that look? And how long is an action plan last?

[00:32:56.08] spk_2:
Yeah. So I recommend doing that in conjunction with a coach, uh, at least on that first coaching call to have um something in mind that you’re gonna be working towards. So I typically go through kind of the who, what, when, where, why, how questions. So um you know, what is it that you wanna do? What is it that you wanna focus on? Which competency is standing out to you? Which area are you believing that you want to develop in some way? Again, it could be enhancing um or leveraging a strength that could be enhancing something that’s a little bit weaker. But what is it that you wanna work on? And then how are you going to do that? Are you gonna go um to a training? Are you gonna participate in a leadership program? Are you going to, you start listening to podcasts like this one about, you know, whatever topic you’re trying to work on, what is it that you are going to commit to, to develop that particular skill? It could be taking on a different project at work, right? That you know, is gonna challenge that skill set. So um thinking through your options and deciding how you want to develop that skill and then also with that, putting a timeline to it. So when, when are you gonna start, um what are the, you know, milestones that are gonna be along the way? How long will it take you to complete whatever it is that you’re deciding you want to do? Um And then from there, who, who’s gonna help you, who’s gonna help hold you accountable? We know that most people don’t just change automatically. So if you think about the number of people who um don’t uh follow through on their New Year’s resolutions, right? It, it takes more than just knowing that you need to change or even sometimes having a desire to change and so who can help you, who can be that accountability partner for you, um to make sure that you’re working on this goal and, and it could be the coach, but it could be someone else as well. It could be a supervisor, it could be a peer, um a partner, even someone just in your life that’s going to help, um help you, you know, work towards your goals. And so going through some of those questions, you’re able to put together an action plan that includes things like that timeline. How long you’re gonna be working on it? What do we

[00:33:21.08] spk_0:
do for the folks who really just don’t take this feedback. Well, maybe there are strengths but they’re not, they’re not acknowledging those or maybe, maybe they don’t have strengths identified or let’s just say it’s objectively, it’s, well forget, um, subjectively it’s taken as very bad, forget how it looks objectively. The, the person is taking it very badly, very hard

[00:33:41.46] spk_2:
it happens.

[00:33:42.08] spk_0:
What do we do? What do we do?

[00:34:27.39] spk_2:
So, you know, a skilled coach will probably do one of two things. I, I believe I’m a skilled coach, but a skilled coach will likely do one of two things. Um, one try to on that call, uh, get to at the, the bottom of that feeling, basically what’s causing it. Why am I getting such a reaction from this information? Um, just trying to understand perhaps there’s something that is triggering the reaction beyond just what’s on, on the, the paper, so to speak. And so having that conversation can actually sometimes move people into a new place, a better place to, to have the conversation that you have wanna have. Um, another option. And, and another thing that a skilled coach might do is just ask to reschedule the call. Um, because sometimes

[00:34:36.89] spk_0:
to do what reschedule

[00:34:53.58] spk_2:
the call, the coach call, right? Um Because sometimes there’s just something, whatever it is, whether it’s a, uh, a data point or a comment that has been included in the feedback, something just hijacks you and you can’t move past it in that moment, but that doesn’t mean that two weeks from now, one week from now you wouldn’t be able to move past that. And so sometimes having some space can, can be really beneficial. And so just saying, you know what it sounds like, this is not gonna, you know, be a good time for us to have this conversation. Why don’t we reconnect on Tuesday and then you’re giving some, them some space to kind of think through and process what they’re, what they’re learning in the assessment.

[00:35:21.60] spk_0:
Ok. I could see how some people could take it hard.

[00:35:23.86] spk_2:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. There’s that one comment, the comment that

[00:35:29.60] spk_0:
like maybe you even thinking, I know who said that. I know who that was. He killed me.

[00:35:36.52] spk_2:
Yes. People spend time trying to figure out who said what and it’s not, that’s not the point, right of the assessment and so helping them move past that can, can be part of the, have you had

[00:35:48.58] spk_0:
people plead with you to tell you? Oh, come on, who said that?

[00:35:51.98] spk_2:
Well, as a coach, I don’t know who’s at it. So

[00:35:55.20] spk_0:
it’s anonymous to

[00:36:08.79] spk_2:
you. It is, I, I might know uh for the, for the data points, I know which group it came out of and, and they do too, um but not necessarily for the open field comments. Um And so it’s, it’s, you know, you can think about this all day, but it doesn’t mean you’re gonna get it right. And then what if you do, what, then what, you know what’s gonna change for you? How are you going to use that information? So,

[00:36:17.88] spk_0:
now I’m, now I’m blowing this up. Like, have there been cases of retaliation where somebody confronted somebody? I know you, I know you’re the one who wrote this.

[00:36:26.79] spk_2:
I, I would guess somewhere in the world that perhaps that is the case. Um, but I have not experienced

[00:36:42.49] spk_0:
that. All right. No workplace blow ups or confrontations over 3 60 assessments. All right. All right. Um What else, what else would you like us to know? We still got, we got some time left. What like what happened? I asked you that you think folks should know about these 3 60 degree feedback?

[00:38:23.26] spk_2:
Yeah, I would just add that. Um So I work with, with nonprofit leaders to help them create scalable learning strategies. And um you know, oftentimes when there is some sort of learning need, some sort of professional development need, we go to training and I create training. So I’m biased. I, I like it. I think it’s a great solution but it’s a solution. And I think pairing any other sort of professional development program, um like a training with a 3 60 assessment is actually even more valuable because if you’re able to assess your skills first and then say, here’s where I need to improve, here’s where I need to focus and then you send them through, say a leadership training, they have that skill set in mind. As they’re going through that training, they’re focused on that particular skill set, whether it’s, you know, communication or relationship building or whatever they’re focused on that, they’re gonna get back out of it and then you’re gonna see some really intentional transformation um because they had the assessment process first. So when I think about creating scalable learning strategies for organizations, it is thinking through that whole process, how can we make sure that we’re being strategic, that the organization is getting what they need? But then also thinking about the individual within the audience. So things like 3 60 assessments combined with formal training, combined with coaching, um can actually be a really effective way to see how people grow and develop. I think, you know, for me, I think people are worthy of investment and then I think investing in your people, make them feel valued and gives them, you know, a new, new skills and a new passion for their work. Um And as leaders in our organizations, we get to create that environment, we get to create those opportunities so that our people can thrive. And so an assessment is one great tool that you can use in conjunction with many other tools to help your your leaders grow and develop.

[00:39:02.09] spk_0:
So then by coalescing all the assessment data for all the individual people, you’re saying you can target training enterprise wide that that helps lift lift skill deficits that, that are like common across lots of people in the organization.

[00:39:27.21] spk_2:
You can, you can. And even if you have a general leadership program, if your individuals have gone through the 3 60 assessment process, they’re looking to develop particular skills. And so they’re gonna be looking to find that you, you often find what you’re looking for, right? So they’re gonna be looking to find whatever that is in the leadership program. So even if it’s a, a more general program that you’re offering, um or you’re, you know, sending people to the 3 60 assessment, gives that individual information so that they look for that when they’re in that program. Yeah.

[00:39:51.41] spk_0:
Right. Right. As you said, right. They’re looking, they find what they’re looking for. Yeah. Absolutely. Ok. All right, we leave it there, Heather, what do you

[00:39:53.31] spk_2:
think? That sounds good, tony. Thanks for having me.

[00:40:10.16] spk_0:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. Absolutely. Heather Bright founder and CEO of Skill Masters Market. The company is at Skill Masters market dot com and she is at Heather Burright. Thank you again, Heather. Thanks tony

[00:40:18.28] spk_1:
next week. Financial Fitness for your board. If you missed any part of this week’s show,

[00:40:21.11] spk_0:
I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com

[00:41:11.92] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your non profit donor box dot org and by Kela, grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency. With Kila, the fundraisers CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meer. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. Social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:41:26.83] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for October 2, 2023: Fundraising For Introverts


Brian SaberFundraising For Introverts

That’s the title of Brian Saber’s new book. He returns with uplifting news for those who prefer quiet time over party time: You can be a great fundraiser! Brian knows. He’s been a successful introverted fundraiser for nearly 40 years. He’s also president of Asking Matters.


Listen to the podcast

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

I love our sponsor!

Donorbox: Powerful fundraising features made refreshingly easy.


Apple Podcast button




We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

Transcript for 660_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231002.mp3

Processed on: 2023-09-29T19:59:48.507Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket:
Path to JSON: 2023…10…660_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231002.mp3.407457749.json
Path to text: transcripts/2023/10/660_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20231002.txt

[00:00:47.44] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of and the pod father almost forgot that of your favorite heb doin podcast. I can’t quite bring the usual energy today. I will explain in Tony’s take two. Nonetheless, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be stricken with depopulation if I had to speak the words you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with What’s up this week?

[00:01:54.37] spk_1:
Hey, tony, it’s fundraising for Introverts. That’s the title of Brian Saber’s new book. He returns with uplifting news for those who prefer quiet time over party time. You can be a great fundraiser. Brian knows he’s been a successful introverted fundraiser for nearly 40 years. He’s also president of asking matters on Tony’s take too. Got the COVID we sponsored by donor Boxx, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and buy Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals here is fundraising for introverts.

[00:02:30.82] spk_0:
It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome back, Brian Saber to nonprofit radio. He is President of Asking Matters and author of the brand new book. Fundraising for Introverts Harnessing our powers for what matters. Brian has nearly 40 years of professional experience as a frontline fundraiser, soliciting major capital and planned gifts. The company is at asking mats dot com. Brian and Brian’s book are at fundraising for introverts dot com. Welcome back, Brian. It’s a pleasure to see you.

[00:02:44.99] spk_2:
I am delighted to be back, tony.

[00:02:48.16] spk_0:
Welcome from Palm Springs, California where you are just recently located to from New

[00:02:55.15] spk_2:
Jersey. From New Jersey. Yes. Uh, I have made this my base. Yes, it’s very hot in September here. Uh, but it is beautiful and, uh, I guess it’s one step towards retirement. Who knows

[00:03:14.68] spk_0:
Palm Springs, California is a very different culture than, uh, no Jersey.

[00:03:16.20] spk_2:
It is. Everyone says hello and I don’t wanna say New Jersey, its aren’t friendly or New Yorkers aren’t friendly.

[00:03:25.58] spk_0:
We don’t, we don’t have time. We’re in, we got somewhere to be. There’s too many. I, I can even in small town, New Jersey, I mean, you might get a smile, you might in a small

[00:03:41.53] spk_2:
town here, many people have no place to be a lot of retirees. The pa is slower and it’s sort of

[00:03:43.19] spk_0:
nice. All right, you’re bringing down the average age then

[00:03:46.53] spk_2:
I have, you know, I went from feeling like the oldest person in Jersey City. I might have been the oldest person in my building by 20 years to feeling like, uh, younger than spring time and Palm Springs.

[00:04:25.41] spk_0:
Right. I, I think I better also disclose that Brian and I are both on drugs. Me for my COVID, he had some surgery very recently. So, let’s see what unfolds. Let’s make sure I can keep straight the difference between intuitive and introverts. That’s the first thing since the book is about introverts, we wanna make sure we keep things straight that way. Um, I saw you just, you, um, you were just on Jay Frost Mastermind series

[00:04:31.38] spk_2:
actually, that is this afternoon.

[00:04:41.86] spk_0:
Oh, it’s coming up. Oh, it has. Oh, well, I don’t like being the warm up for Jay Frost at Hack. I wouldn’t, uh, II, I was, I, I was gonna say that he was the warm up for me. Now, I’m the opening act for Jay

[00:04:50.75] spk_2:
Frost. Well, actually, by the time this, this airs Jay’s will have happened. So he will be your warm up act, in fact. Oh, good. Oh, ok,

[00:05:10.20] spk_0:
good. All right. Then we can proceed because otherwise we’re, we’re gonna do this at six o’clock Eastern, uh, at, at three o’clock your time because I’m not warming up for Jay Frost Hack. All right. So let’s, let’s, let’s get some terms. Uh, introvert. We’re celebrating introverts. We’re celebrating introverts, right? You’re an in, you’re a proud introvert. Welcome. Proud introvert.

[00:05:38.51] spk_2:
Thank you. Yes, I am a proud introvert and it took a long time to become a proud introvert for most of my life. I thought it was something I had to compensate for something that would hold me back, something to hide. Something that makes me less of a fundraiser than others.

[00:05:44.45] spk_0:
Your own mom, Elaine Saber was, was confused.

[00:06:39.29] spk_2:
She was confused. You’re right. You read the book closely. Yes. My mother, uh, I, I was very shy when I was young and she thought at a certain point I got past it that I became this confident and outgoing person. Well, she wasn’t seeing what was underneath, which was, and still is a somewhat shy introverted person who wants to move through the world in a certain way. Command respect, uh uh, and be seen as confident and able because, uh, there is some bias, there are lots of biases in the world, of course, and there’s a bias towards people who are more articulate and uh forward and, uh social.

[00:06:41.56] spk_0:
Yeah. Well, they

[00:06:42.33] spk_2:
suck up all the oxygen thing

[00:06:44.41] spk_0:
up, all they suck up all the oxygen and, and so there’s no choice but to pay attention to them because you can’t get a word

[00:07:05.20] spk_2:
in. Well, this is true. This is one of the challenges for introverts that we can’t get a word in unless we jump in ahead of when we really want to participate. And this is one of the great dichotomies between introverts and extroverts. Is that rhythm in a conversation?

[00:07:20.06] spk_0:
All right. So let’s, so let’s talk. Let’s get some of our terms. Uh settle, settled down. So, so introvert, extrovert, uh let, let, let’s, let’s uh uh contrast the, the introvert extrovert for us,

[00:08:03.18] spk_2:
please. Well, in fact, it, it all comes from science and uh introverts are introverts and extroverts are extroverts because of how we’re wired and because of our neural pathways and our transmitters and our enzymes. So which is actually great news to be able to say we are who we are as, as we want to in so many parts of our life and say this is simply how, who I am, who I was born to be. And uh there are a few points here. The first is that introverts have longer neural pathways, brain pathways that they use in thinking through an idea coming up with an idea, coming up with a response to a question, introverts have a longer pathway and dig deeper into their memories into their pasts, into their knowledge base to come up with an answer. Yes.

[00:08:33.40] spk_0:
You say you say introverts rely more on long term memory. Extroverts rely more on short term memory.

[00:09:29.87] spk_2:
Correct? So it’s much easier for an extrovert to grab it that short term memory or what’s coming through their mind right at that moment and to then spit it out and feel it’s a complete thought. Whereas the introvert really wants to stop and think before, before responding. And I, I ask people if they have this same challenge I’ve always had when I’m in a situation where I have to talk quickly. I repeat myself because the first time I say something, it doesn’t sound complete to me, it came out too fast before I could put it together. And I’ve had to watch and try to keep myself if I’ve had to talk quickly from repeating myself. It’s a bit of a mind thing there. Uh You might get too much into your mind, but I, I watch that now so that I’m not repetitive. And you

[00:09:37.83] spk_0:
said you asked other people are uh did you find

[00:12:58.28] spk_2:
and other people find the psycho with you? Yes. Yes. Yes, they are. Simpatico with me. They get it. So that’s the first difference. The second difference has to do with dopamine and Acetic Cole. And I’m not a big science guy, but I dug into the science for this book because I really wanted people to understand who they are and what’s making them tick. Everyone’s heard of dopamine. We hear it all the time. We hear about it in terms of sports and that rush and everything who’s heard of coli very few people. Well, they are complementary uh neural transmitters. Dopamine is called the feel good uh uh transmitter or enzyme. And when dopamine is activated people, well, pe dopamine is activated, I should say by external rewards and excitements and things. Aesthetic cole is the internal, feel good that’s activated by going inside by what’s what, what you’re feeling inside yourself. It’s a more of a self-satisfaction and it’s been proven that dopamine is more active in extroverts, anesthetic coline and introverts. So, extroverts are motivated for that to get that excitement, to get that rush in the moment that might come from meeting with people, meeting new people at a bar, going to an exciting concert and feeling the the mood of the crowd. Whereas introverts aren’t as reactive, their dopamine isn’t as reactive and so are less drawn to that type of activity and get less pleasure out of it. They get more pleasure out of quieter activities and often more solitary activities where they’re actually thinking deeply. And I’ve noticed only very recently, I’m not a big joiner. That’s an understatement. Actually, I don’t like to join things, but I’m into groups. One is uh yoga. I’m a big yoga guy and I realize what I like about yoga is we’re together, but we’re not really interacting. I’m feeling the energy of the room without having to be social the whole time. I’ve also been in a chorus for the last two years as you know, tony, I started singing now, I’m in a chorus. And what’s nice about the chorus is we chat a little bit beforehand and during the break, but most of our time together is spent making music where the interaction with each other is, is not a social interaction and it’s much more comfortable for me. I hear of these meet up groups all the time and for a million dollars, I wouldn’t go to one of those events. So, so, you know, I’m very aware of where I’m getting my energy, people think because I do have many friends and because I do well in social circumstances that that must mean an extroverted. But in fact, I’m using a tremendous amount of energy that wears me out. So those are the two big differences and sometimes people to simplify it. Think of extroverts as those who talk to think and introverts as those who think to talk, right. Extroverts process out loud, introverts like to think, process internally and then talk,

[00:13:24.15] spk_0:
you make this clear in the book, let’s uh distinguish between being introverted and shy. Uh

[00:14:27.87] spk_2:
Yes. So often they’re conflated because they often result in the same thing. Someone who’s a little reticent to be in groups, maybe a little awkward uh off to the side, want to spend time alone. Uh Shy has to do with fear of being judged and the opposite of shyness is an introversion. It’s outgoing ness if you will. Um So you can be shy or introverted or both. So, um there are shy extroverts which might seem odd but uh it an extrovert can be drawn to the shiny object into the, the uh the big social circumstance and still be shy in that situation, uh for fear of being judged. They’re, they’re two different pieces of the pie. OK.

[00:14:29.95] spk_0:
And then, and then you throw in, uh, Ambivert,

[00:14:33.81] spk_2:
which I

[00:14:34.58] spk_0:
thought, I, I thought of, I thought of her Metro but you don’t, you don’t call it her Metro.

[00:14:41.08] spk_2:
That’s a big scientific term.

[00:14:52.28] spk_0:
And it’s a nice, uh, that was a good prefix for, uh, for, it could be either one, her Metro but um uh Amber, Amber, right? Adex, we can balance both. Yeah. You think they exist? So

[00:16:42.93] spk_2:
yes, I think the ambivert exists. There’s been a lot of discussion about Ambivert lately. I think it’s helpful, but it can also keep you from understanding yourself because basically if you’re gonna say, well, I’m everything. OK. Well, what drives you, what, what you, you need to have some way forward and I, I think ambivert to me implies an equal amount of everything. Whereas I think we are most of us more of one thing than another. So you’ve had me on before and some of your listeners probably know the asking styles that we created at asking matters. And those really were the kernel even for this book. And uh there are four different styles, but we also have a secondary style for each because no one fits cleanly in one box. And when people take the quiz or they look at the graphic, they, they, they sometimes say, well, I feel like I’m a little bit of each of those. And I say, well, you know, you could be closer to what you’d call the origin of the various axis in this, right? Some of us are Uber, this or Uber that we’re all on a spectrum. We all have more or less of various things, whether it’s uh um in testosterone or it’s introversion, right? Dopamine reaction to dopamine reaction to a subtle and the idea through all of this discussion, I think, and through all of these different uh personality assessments and the work I do specifically related to fundraising is help people get a better sense of who they are, feel comfortable with that, understand they can succeed, given who they are and that they don’t have to be the other.

[00:17:26.62] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Donor box quote. We’ve seen incredible results with Donor Box. In the last year. We’ve boosted our donations by 70% and launched new programs in literacy, health, child care and tailoring for our girls. That’s Jennings W founder and executive director of Uganda 10 18. If you’re looking for a fast, flexible and donor friendly fundraising platform for your organization, check out donor box, donor box dot org. Now back to fundraising for introverts

[00:17:50.99] spk_0:
since you, you raised the asking styles. Well, this seems like a good place to acquaint folks, but I was gonna bring it up later, but we may as well just remind folks, you know, first of all the quiz that uh you referred to is at asking uh asking mats dot com and it’s AAA three minute quiz you ask about th there are about 30 questions. You don’t, you don’t overthink them three minutes. You’ll, you’ll get your asking style. But so what are we talking about if you can give us the 2 to 3 minute version of what the asking styles are? No point in my trying. You’ve been talking about this for decades, you can do it much more succinctly.

[00:18:12.19] spk_2:
Ok? I I had a feeling you might be asking about the asking styles later, but it just felt like the segway. So you,

[00:18:30.73] spk_0:
yeah, so you know, you run amok. Uh The guest guest takes advantage and has his own agenda. That’s fine. But I, I, so I yielded to it. Uh but I’ll just make it uh explicit with my consent. We will move into the asking matter, the asking stylist and

[00:18:39.70] spk_2:
for the record, one of the things I just adore about you is your sense of humor. And I think that’s why we get along. So

[00:18:46.55] spk_0:
please do proceed with my consent.

[00:22:16.09] spk_2:
Why? Thank you, sir. Kind sir. So the asking styles were developed by me and actually by Andrea Kilted, she was my co-founder. I always give her credit for this. Um And we, we came up with them because we wanted to help people in the field understand their strengths as askers, fundraisers and in, in particular askers because asking for money. That moment where you ask is such a difficult thing for so many people. And most people say I can’t do that. Especially volunteers and board members, we were both dealing with lots of boards and board members would come on and say I’ll do anything but fundraise. I’m not a fundraiser and so forth and we wanted people to understand that there isn’t just one type of fundraiser. There’s this stereotype which truly is just that uh fundraising and the fundraising, you and I do a lot of the major gifts, the plan gifts, capital gifts, they’re all based on relationships. We all have relationships in our life with a variety of people who have different personalities and we make it work and we bring different parts of our personality to the table depending we acknowledge uh who others uh are in, in, in terms of their personalities. I just saw a new book came out something about get people how to get people understand people. We wanted people in this nonprofit sector to understand who they were as askers. And we based it on two characteristics. First, how you interact this extroversion, introversion spectrum and then how you think uh the analytic intuitive spectrum and came up with a grid, not dissimilar to a Myers Briggs or a disc grid or any of the personality assessments people are familiar with, but we did develop it ourselves from scratch. Uh uh And, and the result is these four major uh asking styles. Rainmaker go Getter, Kindred Spirit emission controller, either the analytic extrovert, the intuitive extrovert, the intuitive introvert or the analytic introvert. And based on that there are skills and a style that predominate for you. Whether it’s the analytic extrovert. The rainmaker who is sort of driven strategic competitive, keeps their eye on the prize very objective or the intuitive expert. The go-getter who’s, who’s a big picture thinker and makes friends easily quick on their feet, engaging important skills for fundraising. The intuitive introvert, the kindred spirit, feelings oriented that is who I am. We our hearts and our sleeves, very personal relationships. And we tend to be attentive and caring and thoughtful towards other people, not to say rainmaker and go getters can’t be caring, but we excel at thinking about others and making them feel good. And then the mission controllers, the analytic introverts who are very planful and systematic and detailed and observant the best listeners, those most likely to sit back and watch what’s happening. And for those of us in fundraising, we know the number one skill really is listening and learning from your donor. It’s not telling them everything about your organization and trying to convince them of something, but learning from them and understanding who they are so that you can relate them to your organization and vice versa. So those are the four styles and um

[00:23:40.35] spk_0:
each of them, each of them has value in fundraising. Uh each of them could partner with others to enhance their own skills. Each of them could identify potential prospect and donor relationships based on their own styles as well as the prospect styles as, as best as you can suss those out. So, and you and I have talked about the styles on the show. I, I we’ve, we’ve done a show devoted to the styles, the styles and all and the, and the quiz to find out what your style, primary and secondary is again, is that uh asking matters, not asking styles. That would have been too simple. I don’t know why they didn’t choose asking styles but they didn’t. So uh they, he Brian, I don’t know why he didn’t, but it’s asking matters. Go to asking matters dot com. That’s why um that, that’s where the quiz is and that’s where all the info is. And uh I am, I am a uh uh I’m a Go Getter, Kindred Spirit. Yes. My, my one and two. And you’re a Kindred mission controller,

[00:24:35.43] spk_2:
right? OK. So your intuitive really dominates and you’re um you’re strong intuitive, strong from the gut. Yeah. And my uh and, and you have, you might say about more of a balance between introvert, extrovert, you’re not Uber, extroverted necessarily, right? My, I am uh being a, a Kindred Spirit mission controller. I am primarily an introvert and I have a balance of the intuitive and the analytic. In fact, you know, II I have an economics degree. I have a business degree. I have an architecture degree. I have all of these degrees that do depend a lot on quantitative measurement analysis, things like that. And I’m a good organizer. I don’t care to do it. I’m a kindred spirit. I’ll go along with whatever anyone wants to do because I want everyone to be happy. But people put me in charge because I can do it because I can organize something I can put on a special event if I have to and it’ll work well. So that’s how I define

[00:25:00.09] spk_0:
myself. In fact, you were CEO at uh Hudson Guild in New York City for years, six

[00:25:10.63] spk_2:
years, I was at Hudson Gill for eight years in, in total as deputy and as Ed and yeah, and I, I was pretty good at running the place coming up with budgets keeping to budgets. Uh

[00:26:09.27] spk_0:
Yeah, it would not have had eight years of, of uh lackluster performance. No. So certainly it was uh it was a successful run. All right, let’s talk about one of the opening chapters. Introverts are great fundraisers. We’re here to celebrate introverts because we, you know, we don’t want people to feel that they have to be something that they’re not right that you have to appear. You have to make a, make a AAA presentation or uh put up a facade of something that you aren’t to meet some fundraiser stereotype that is uh uh lacking and phony and we, you know, if you’re an introvert, we want you to show up as you are wherever you are, what we want you to show up as you are. But we’re celebrating today. Introverts. So, uh, like I said, early chapter introverts are great fundraisers. Why is that?

[00:28:31.44] spk_2:
Yes. Well, to pick up on something, we said a little earlier, the, the number one point is definitely the listening skills in a conversation. You’re either talking or you’re listening. Hopefully, if you’re not talking, you’re listening to the person who’s talking, I guess you could be zoned out. And in fundraising, we want the donor to do more of the talking. Well, it’s much easier for the introvert to sit back and let the donor do more of the talking to have more of the focus on the donor to keep asking questions and having the donor answer them. It’s a good skill overall, but it’s one that comes more easily to introverts and sometimes extroverts have to work at it. We, we talk about how we want our donors to talk more than half the time. Ideally more like 65% of the time if we can get above that. Amazing, not always so easy but important. So this listening is key and, and another reason listening is important is that it’s been proven that we remember the least of what we have heard. We remember much more of what we ourselves say and do, and we remember the most about how we feel or felt. And if, if, if, if I’m a fundraiser and I’m talking nonstop about my organization and not really including my donor in the conversation. My donors not gonna feel that great may might feel. Oh, ok. It sounds like a great organization. But isn’t going to feel any attachment, isn’t going to feel involved? Isn’t going to feel like there’s any stake and further may not even remember the important points you’re making because you’ve made so many points your donor might remember them all might remember the least important might phase out. So listening is extreme ordinarily important and it’s something that introverts do really well. We also tend to go deep rather than broad, right? That’s how our minds work. So we like deeper friendships, deeper, more meaningful conversations and it’s not that extroverts don’t like meeting people aren’t intrigued by people and such. But introverts do dig deeper and develop uh uh deeper relationships.

[00:28:39.35] spk_0:
Curiosity. II, I call it, I uh you refer to it in the book too, a curiosity about people.

[00:28:56.20] spk_2:
Yes. And I, I’m not saying extroverts don’t have a curiosity. Andrea and I were talking recently and she’s very curious about people, but she isn’t gonna dig deep, right? She’s as deep as I will for instance. Um And that there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s, it’s different, right? You, you, you can spread the net, right? Until,

[00:29:08.66] spk_0:
until the conversation gets awkward but you don’t

[00:29:43.37] spk_2:
maybe. Um but I, I do think you extroverts help spread the net wide if I want looking at it in a different way than I’ve spoken about it. You know, you make lots of friends and have lots of relationships and I think the introverts deep can deepen those. Uh So that is the non, so listening and, and being attentive because attentive is related to listening, right? So they go together and tho those are key

[00:29:47.11] spk_0:
also sharing our own stories.

[00:30:06.38] spk_2:
Yes. And introverts in particular, Kindred spirits are more likely to share their own stories. Intuitive come from the story side where analytics often come from the facts and figures and outcome side. Now you can put those outcomes and uh uh uh statistics in a story of course, and I teach that, right? You want to tell your story, but that touchy feely warm story often comes from an introvert and most often from an intuitive introvert, it’s just how we roll and those are proven to be rather effective.

[00:30:33.77] spk_0:
Sharing your own story also reveals that your understanding, you’re processing, you’re empathizing with what the person has just said because you’re, you’re relating it to your own experience, what you’re relating, what they had just said to your own experience and then you can convey that. So I, so as you, I, I think that reveals to the person you’re speaking with that uh that you understand and, and empathize and you’ve seen it in your own life and here’s how, so I fully understand what you’re saying because the, the same happened to me sort of.

[00:31:50.00] spk_2:
Yes. Yes. And of course, in fundraising, we teach everyone to do that. It’s just what comes most naturally. And at the end of the day, there are some fundraisers who are super duper stars with tons of experience who have closed gazillions of gifts and can and can figure all this out. But for most people in the field, we’re trying our best where we’ve had very little uh training. We’re board members, let’s say who have had virtually no training. Um And, and at the end of the day, we need to just rely on who we are and as introverted fundraisers, board member, other volunteers, staff member can rely on that listening, that empathy, that attentiveness to, to be very successful.

[00:32:44.12] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kila increase donations and foster collaborative team work with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser. Crm goes beyond data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit, Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two.

[00:34:39.11] spk_0:
Thanks, Kate. I got the COVID. Uh, I was, uh, very proud that I hadn’t gotten it all these years, but it hit me, I don’t know whether it was, uh, a restaurant or might have been my local food store or a little, uh, home goods store that I go to a local, little, not home goods, the big shop but, uh, a little, a little houseware store. I go to, uh, I, I think it was one of those places which, uh, just leads me to the lesson that consumerism kills because the I was spending money. I was spending money somewhere and I got sick. I certainly didn’t get COVID on the beach. Uh I didn’t get COVID pulling weeds in my garden, my flowers, keeping my flowers clear. I didn’t get COVID doing those things. So spending is harmful to your health, don’t spend and stay healthy. That’s the lesson that we pick. Take. That’s the takeaway. That’s the takeaway consumerism kills. Um, no, so, so it’s actually a, uh, AAA pretty mild case. No, you know, certainly no hospitalization just, uh, so my case was pretty mild, didn’t feel mild for a couple of days. But, uh, overall in the big scheme of COVID, it, it’s a mild case. So that’s that. So I can’t quite bring it all today. And, uh, you can hear that I’m a little nasally talking to Brian because we recorded just today while I’m also you know, so, not, not quite over this, like, probably 80% recovered. 80% of my charm is, has, has, uh, has recovered. So that’s the explanation. Everything’s gonna be fine next couple of days it’ll all be over and that’s Tony’s stake too. Consumerism kills. Don’t spend money and stay healthy.

[00:34:47.57] spk_1:
Kate. Yeah, you do. Sound a little funny, but we’re glad that you’re feeling better, tony. All

[00:34:52.65] spk_0:
right. Don’t spend money.

[00:34:55.42] spk_1:
We’ve got, but loads more time. Let’s go back to fundraising for introverts with Brian Saber.

[00:35:49.79] spk_0:
I have AAA personal downside that I have experienced to this. I do a lot of meals, uh meetings over meals and when you’re doing a lot of listening, you’re eating because the, the person is talking and there’s a meal in front of you and I have to pace myself so that my plate isn’t empty because I’m, I’m, when I say I’m, I’m allowing the other person to speak. I want the other person to be talking. I probably do meetings more like 80 20 them talking and me talking. Uh So at least that’s the way it feels. So you have to, I have to pace myself. So I don’t finish my, my meal before the other, the other person’s plate is still full because they’re, they’re doing all the talking, which I’m encouraging. So you have to, you have to pace yourself. If you go to the bathroom, that’s I find bathroom breaks. Good opportunity. Give somebody, five minutes to catch up. You know, they can, they can eat, they can eat while, while I’m in the, in the bathroom. That’s a good strategy. Um, also when the check comes, that’s another good time to go to the, go to the bathroom. Let them, let them ponder the, or when you know the check is coming,

[00:36:09.98] spk_2:
uh, you’ve only got five seconds on that one. Yeah. No, I

[00:36:18.45] spk_0:
know. Yeah. You say five seconds in the book. I, I let it sit there. I, I let it sit. You too. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I’m representing a charity for pizza,

[00:36:23.82] spk_2:
but my hope is that I will then go for it and the donor will say, oh, no, please let me get that. I don’t want the charity to get it. Some donors don’t realize that I think some donors feel we pay all our own expenses as well. That shouldn’t

[00:36:39.42] spk_0:
be right either. That’s

[00:37:09.65] spk_2:
not right either. That wouldn’t be right. But we assume that our donors understand so much more about how the nonprofit sector works than they do the most sophisticated ones. Do those who have sat on a number of boards. They get it. They make sure not to put us in an uncomfortable position when the check comes and such. But most people are at, at the beginning of that journey. You know, we, we, we have to remember in this nonprofit world that most people have less information than more whether they are volunteers, donors or staff.

[00:37:16.12] spk_0:
Yeah, they do.

[00:37:17.76] spk_2:
We really want to help. Honestly. Not that we don’t want to help a little bit the, the, the big guys as they call them, but they have tons of professional, super experienced staff and board members. Most of our nonprofit world doesn’t have that. And that’s who I really want to help. That’s who needs the most help.

[00:37:35.78] spk_0:
That’s why you’re on nonprofit radio. We’re, we’re big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. You’re speaking, you’re speaking to that other 95%. Yes. Yes, with my consent. Um

[00:37:48.37] spk_2:

[00:38:03.69] spk_0:
All right. Um, no, host is good enough, you know, sir, is not necessary. Just host. Um I, I wanted to be sure to thank you for putting me in the index. I have a, I have a quote. You asked a plan to you, you asked my reaction to uh, or my explanation of how planned giving could be, uh a little easier, maybe a little less taxing for introverts and I was happy to do it. And then you put me in the index. So I’ve never been indexed before. So thank you.

[00:38:37.57] spk_2:
Haven’t been indexed. Ok. Well, you’re great. You’re quoted. We brought um, a, a good perspective to plan giving because we talk about all the different roles in fundraising, not just the major gifts. And uh, and your expert perspective on plan gifts was uh really helpful and maybe we should say and, and to find out exactly what he said, they need to read the book.

[00:38:44.80] spk_0:
Well, what I would do when you get the book is, uh, I would jump to page 89. 89. Yeah, read my quote because if you die while you’re reading the book and you miss out, you know, 89 is kind of far away if you don’t get to 88. So if you don’t make it through the book for some reason, so jump to 89 read the important part and then, you know, jump then, then go back to the beginning and read, uh read about every, all the rest

[00:39:09.09] spk_2:
and advice. I think we’ll have to put that in social media somehow and make fun of it. All recommendations start on page 89.

[00:40:24.20] spk_0:
Uh But since we are talking about planned giving, everything you and I have just said about what makes uh in introverts are great fundraisers that all applies directly to planned giving. It’s just that you’re doing it with folks who are 60 to 70 plus. I mean, I, I uh I worked with a donor, I worked with a donor who was 99. She just very sadly, she just died on her 1/100 birthday. Exactly the day she died as on exactly her 1/100 birthday just last, just last week. Uh oldest donor I ever had worked with many uh shout her out Marion. Um many lovely lunches with her Um But you, so you’re just doing it with older folks. That’s all you’re listening. You’re curious and what rich stories they have to tell about the Great Depression World War Two Vietnam era for the younger, for the younger plan giving donors, Vietnam, uh Korea for some of them. Um You know, so there’s just a, a AAA glorious wealth of history that you can learn when you listen to folks. You are 70 or over.

[00:40:32.40] spk_2:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think planned gifts are great area for introverts.

[00:40:34.08] spk_0:
Absolutely. But all of fundraising is all. That’s the point. All right. Um We got some more time. What uh what would you like to, what would you like to talk about that? We haven’t, we haven’t yet. You’re the author,

[00:43:38.40] spk_2:
I’m the author. You’re, you’re the host, but I’m the author. You are. I would love to talk about board members. Yeah, I do a ton of work with boards as you know, um I train boards all the time. So I’m in these situations where I’m facilitating and one of the things I’ve learned from those trainings and even more so from the virtual trainings. We’ve been doing the last couple of years with Zoom and now we’ll be doing tons of going forward. Uh Is the impact of this introversion, extroversion dichotomy on how boards function. If I use as an example after everyone has chatted at a board meeting and given their two cents and the chair says, does anyone else have something to say? And someone actually raises their hand and waits to be called on a often that is, that person has something really smart to say that has not been said before. And two, it’s often an introvert saying it and this has become even more so on. Zoom. I was doing a training a few months back and we asked people to raise their hand that little yellow hand if they wanted to speak. And people just kept speaking. Some people kept speaking without being called on. And finally someone called on this woman and she said, yes, I have been waiting politely with my hands up to speak. She wasn’t going to cut anyone else off. She was an introvert, right? Her and she was, she was also polite. You know, there could be a dichotomy between polite and impolite that has nothing to do with anything. But uh I say this all because if you are not as the chair in particular, if you are not aware of this and finding ways to get feedback from all of your board members, you will be missing out on the introverts. Uh Who II I and this is this shocks people. I never give my opinion in a large group. If someone asks for an opinion, I never raise my hand and offer it. I don’t ask questions when I go to con, if I go to a conference or I’m sitting in some talk, I generally don’t. Uh, because if I raise my hand, someone calls on me, I will actually then be a little embarrassed that everyone’s turned around to look at me and I have to say something. So if you want my opinion, you’re gonna have to ask for it in a different format. Uh, you might ask for it beforehand and try and get a group consensus before the meeting. You might go around the room so that everyone has their moment or follow up if you haven’t heard from certain board members, don’t assume just because someone isn’t talking a lot in a board meeting that they don’t have something to say. Now, does that,

[00:44:04.82] spk_0:
does that include saying Brian, we’ve, we, we’ve been on the topic for a while? You haven’t, you haven’t said anything. Is there anything? I mean, you’re basically calling them out.

[00:46:47.25] spk_2:
You are and they can say no, I’m fine and that, that might be a little embarrassing, but I think they’ll also feel you have respected them by noting that, right? Whether they want to speak or not, uh, they want to feel they’re part of the group and that can get a little tricky as in any group. You know, how much do you acknowledge someone? How much do you leave them alone? Uh, but it’s critically important in boards to, to be watching for this and making sure everyone has been able to participate and have their views heard and validated. Um If we look at the asking styles where we break people up even further, we need to make sure on our boards that all the styles are represented, including the kindred spirit, mission control or introverted styles because of what we bring to the table in terms of process, in terms of making important decisions. If everyone on your board is a rainmaker or go getter, you’re going to come to certain decisions that could be rather biased. Uh When you’re trying to build a strategic plan, decide on next year’s budget. Uh as an executive committee review, you know, in, in reviewing the executive director, when you have all four quadrants, you’ve got the strategy of the rainmaker, you have the opportunity, vision, really forward thinking nature of the go-getter. You’ve got the heart, the the interpersonal of the kindred spirit, really looking at the person as a person or looking at your programs through people who are impacted. And then you have your mission controller who’s looking at the plan and the system and whether it can get done and you need all four. So appreciating, introverts is important to getting the work done and having the strongest plan. And I will use as an example. It might, I think it might be in the book. I, I’ve been working with an organization for a couple of years. They did a strategic plan when I read it. I didn’t think it was particularly strategic I thought it, it felt like a business plan for the next year. Uh The growth wasn’t significant. The new program development wasn’t significant and this is a very strong, solid organization on solid financial ground doing incredible work, an organization that could take the next leap. And when we uh had everyone take the asking sales quiz, we found that most of the board was mission controllers. And so I, what I think happened is the board’s discussions quickly went to, can we do this or how do we do this? And there wasn’t enough time spent on aspirational goals and strategies and what was possible, which are what extroverts sooner bring to the table. Bigger

[00:47:08.45] spk_0:
vision, bigger visions were missing.

[00:47:10.89] spk_2:
I’m sorry, the bigger

[00:47:12.05] spk_0:
vision was missing.

[00:48:10.77] spk_2:
Yes, it was. And, and that can sometimes be a challenge with introverts uh who who may not push far enough, have a have that bigger vision but immediately are going inside internally, which could create some complications for them actually. So we, we just need to be aware of this in all all settings and, and we need introverts on our boards, right? We, we need everyone who is passionate about an organization to feel they belong and want to be a part of it and fundraise for it. OK? And that’s where the asking styles and this book in particular come in making sure everyone’s validated you. And I know we can’t find enough board members, we can’t find enough board chairs for the million and a half nonprofits, executive directors, development officers. And it’s actually going to get worse before it gets better. They say, because the whole baby boomer generation is retiring. And, and so either we validate everyone now and bring everyone to the table and we’re talking about it in many ways. We talk about DE I in many ways. But another, this is actually another lens for that to make sure everyone’s at the table.

[00:48:29.50] spk_0:
You’re talking. Uh As long as we’re talking about boards should uh just give a little mention to our, our uh deceased friend Michael Davidson. Just uh just a little, just a little mention for David Michael. Your uh your book together was uh engaged. Boards will fundraise with an exclamation mark. Uh And I had the two of you on talking about that. So just a little uh little remembrance of uh Michael Davidson. Yeah.

[00:49:35.16] spk_2:
He was an extraordinary member of our community um without ever drawing attention to himself. Modest as could be and knowledgeable and extraordinary and being able to understand boards and bring people around, help strengthen them. And he, it turned out to be my, which I didn’t realize at the time, my greatest mentor uh for almost 20 years I learned from him so much of what I know today about boards and, and miss him terribly in which he were here on our conversation uh with us. It would be a delight So thank you for bringing him up. Oh,

[00:49:51.16] spk_0:
it’s a pleasure. I always think of him when I think about boards. Yes. So why don’t you leave us with something? Uh You know, we can only scratch the surface of the book, which I say every time there’s an author, you, the place to get this book is uh fundraising for introverts dot com. But uh leave us, leave us with some inspiration. I think we’ve been inspirational for, for introverts. But we’re, we’re all, we’re celebrating introverts today. So leave us with even more good news for

[00:53:47.84] spk_2:
introverts. Ok. Well, and before doing that, let me just say from a sales point of view at fundraising for introverts dot com, you can find out to tons of information about the book. We have blog posts. Um We’re starting to put up some videos on different smaller thoughts, individual thoughts and all sorts of resources to buy the book, you buy it wherever you buy books. So we’re not self fulfilling uh um books uh book orders. Uh Amazon, of course, Barnes and Noble bookshop dot Was it bookshop dot com? Is it called? Which actually uh Andrea talked about it. It feeds money back to bookstores um or through your local bookstore. So I just want to say that that um and if you can buy through your local bookstore, amazing because they’re so important still and, and, and any bookstore can order this and get it for you in a matter of days to leave with an inspirational thought. Well, first I’ll say because so so many of us in the field knew Jerry Panis or knew of him, right? For those of us uh in the field for at least a while, he was the Pantheon wrote 21 books, including the book asking many of us have read one or more of his books and Jerry was an introvert. So the person we look at as one of our greatest fundraisers ever and someone who’s taught so much of us so much, uh who taught so much, uh for decades and still does through his books and through the institute and everything. He was an introvert. Um So to me that’s inspirational and, uh, and I guess here’s some inspiration. Um, you know, fundraising is a long game. I think it’s long game, you know, that it’s building relationships over time for the 25 years. I was a frontline fundraiser, executive director. I always thought I was less then I, I hate special events. I don’t like meeting new people. I never go up to someone and introduce myself if I can help it. That’s the shy. I don’t like the phone at all. Uh, very difficult. Um, and I kept thinking someone else can do this, you know, and someone else is a better fundraiser and, but all along, I just did the work, I did the work, I did the work and, uh there was a um AAA an older lady I was cultivating when I worked for BRANDEIS University. I was in charge of fundraising in the Midwest. She was in uh her name is Rosalyn Co I can share that. Uh she lived in Chicago. I met with her many times. The president met with her. We really developed that relationship and it was almost all one on one and she would come to events. But I we had lunch many times and I brought her to the campus in Boston and such and she passed away only a few years ago and left her almost her entire estate to BRANDEIS. I mean, it was $50 million or more the largest gift the university had ever gotten. And that’s not all credit to me because people continued to cultivate her and such. But I certainly was the person who opened that door and really involved her for many years doing my one on one work, right? And that’s um and there are many stories like that, that a decade, two decades, three decades later, uh come to fruition by, by doing the work that introverts do so well, which is building these deep relationships.

[00:54:20.65] spk_0:
Brian Saber info about Brian and his book, You’ll find at fundraising for introverts dot com. Brian. Great to see you. Thank you for sharing. Congratulations on the brand new book. Number one in Amazon in the nonprofit sector when it came out, right? Number one number one in the, in the, in that category. Congratulations. Thank you. Good to see you. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Thank

[00:54:33.08] spk_2:
you. As always, tony. Next week,

[00:54:43.82] spk_0:
I’m sick. Give me a break. I will get somebody good. Plus we’ve got 659 shows to choose from. I’m not gonna let you down

[00:54:45.84] spk_1:
if you missed any part of this week’s show.

[00:54:48.72] spk_0:
I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:55:24.33] spk_1:
We’re sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor Boxx, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and buy Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff and your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:55:53.07] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio and I will be feeling much better, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for September 25, 2023: Possible Implications Of The Supreme Court’s Affirmative Action Decision


Gene TakagiPossible Implications Of The Supreme Court’s Affirmative Action Decision

Gene Takagi

The Supreme Court’s decision this summer struck down college admissions affirmative action programs. Yet it may have repercussions for nonprofits around employment, contracts, grants, and other areas. Gene Takagi gives us his analysis. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney at NEO, the Nonprofit and Exempt Organizations law group.


Listen to the podcast

Get Nonprofit Radio insider alerts!

I love our sponsor!

Donorbox: Powerful fundraising features made refreshingly easy.


Apple Podcast button




We’re the #1 Podcast for Nonprofits, With 13,000+ Weekly Listeners

Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
View Full Transcript

Transcript for 659_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20230925.mp3

Processed on: 2023-09-16T15:16:42.814Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket:
Path to JSON: 2023…09…659_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20230925.mp3.800376527.json
Path to text: transcripts/2023/09/659_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20230925.txt

[00:00:39.45] spk_0:
And welcome to tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d suffer the effects of a parapharyngeal abscess if I had to swallow the fact that you missed this week’s show. Here’s Kate, our associate producer with the highlights.

[00:01:16.40] spk_1:
Hey, tony, we have possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision. Supreme Court’s decision this summer struck down college admissions affirmative action programs, but it may have repercussions for nonprofits around employment contracts, grants and other areas. Jean Takagi gives us his analysis. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney at Neo, the nonprofit and exempt organizations Law Group. On Tony’s take two,

[00:01:18.61] spk_0:
an old drop

[00:01:50.07] spk_1:
were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kila. The fundraisers, CRM visit, Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Here is possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision.

[00:02:35.30] spk_0:
It’s always a pleasure to welcome Jean Takagi back to nonprofit radio. I know you know who he is, but he deserves to have a proper introduction. Jean Takagi is our legal contributor and the managing editor of Neo, the nonprofit and exempt Organizations Law Group in San Francisco. He edits that wildly popular nonprofit law blog and is a part-time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is at neola group dot com. The blog is at nonprofit law blog dot com and Jean is at GTA. Welcome back Jean. It’s good to see you.

[00:02:41.24] spk_2:
Great to see you to tony. Thank

[00:02:52.90] spk_0:
you. I just realized uh we both have red T shirts on. We’re matching today. You’re more for, but you bought a jacket over yours. That wasn’t necessary. Thank you. I’m just, uh you know, I’m, I’m t-shirt and bathing suit because I live because I’m on the beach. So I, I don’t, I don’t put a jacket on. I hope you’ll forgive me. My uh my informality.

[00:03:04.51] spk_2:
It’s a little cooler here in San Francisco. We’re in the mid sixties today. So, well,

[00:03:50.21] spk_0:
not too. Yeah, we’re in the mid uh North Carolina. All right. So we’re talking about the uh Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision and uh the potential for some implications beyond merely college admissions. Why don’t you, why don’t you just set us up with a reminder about that? Uh It was either late June or very early July decision that came out about uh college admissions uh was the um uh the students for fair admissions versus uh the Fellows of Harvard University. And then another case versus the University of North Carolina. So a private university and a public

[00:05:35.84] spk_2:
university. Yeah. So um both cases were treated together and it was um in late June so early this summer um where the Supreme Court came down with a holding that basically said that um in higher education admissions um for uh state universities, uh and for private universities that are state actors and essentially probably because of the federal funding that they receive. Um Well, if they use race um in their admissions policies of deciding who can get in, um whether it’s uh a strict criteria or whether it’s a sort of like a plus factor in rating a candidate’s qualifications that is a violation of the Equal Protection Act uh of the 14th amendment. So the Equal Protection Act basically um says that every person is entitled to equal protection of the laws and that act is applicable to, to governments and state actors. And Harvard uh was brought into the case as an example of a state actor. Um And so, you know, some people were asking, well, how does this even apply to nonprofits? And, well, that’s one way that it applied. And it’s a little unclear about whether something like federal tax exemption. Does that make a nonprofit, a state actor in some cases really haven’t seen that yet, but, um, with the Supreme Court, we’re not really sure, um, what the ties are going to be. Um, but there are all sorts of potential applications for nonprofits that, that people are concerned about. And from my perspective, you know, the decision was fairly disappointing but not unexpected.

[00:07:45.61] spk_0:
Yeah. And, and to just emphasize what you said, you know, we’re talking about potential implications beyond. So we want to raise people’s consciousness about things to watch out for, uh things to watch out for in the news, things to be aware of conscious of, in your own, in your own work, um possibly in grantmaking or, or grant receiving things like that. So, um, yeah, you know, my, uh lawyers are trained to always be learning. You, you never stop learning as an attorney. My uh law school learnings are sort of quickly being eroded by, you know, when I learned about, uh what I learned about abortion protection is obviously, uh no longer applicable. Uh And what I learned about, uh, discrimination, I remember there were, there was benign discrimination like, you know, uh whatever the fishing license or voting or voting or driver’s license laws are in your state, you know, that’s 16 or 18 or 21 you know, whatever it is, that’s, you know, kind of benign. There’s, there’s this, we’re surrounded by discrimination, there’s just, they’re different types. Some are benign and some are invidious, the, the hurtful kind. And then there’s, there was the, uh, sort of corrective or remedial kind which is what, what was at issue around the use of affirmative action in, in college admissions that, that corrective or beneficial kind. And, uh, uh, I, I saw in the, uh, one of the, one of the blog posts that you did at the, uh, the wildly popular nonprofit law blog dot com. Uh, Justice thomas’ concurring opinion was, uh, oh, no, I’m sorry, it was Justice Roberts, the main opinion, you know, eliminating discrimination means eliminating discrimination, discrimination of all types for all reasons for all purposes. Uh So which is a, you know, a part of the, the holding of the case. So, so has has implications, potential, has potential implications for us.

[00:10:14.49] spk_2:
Yeah, and I, I don’t want to diminish just the impact on, on what this decision just if we look at it in isolation for admissions in higher education, um you know, that has tremendous impact because um even Justice Sotomayor said in, in her dissent, ignoring race will not equalize a society that is racially unequal and like that’s really true. So you can take a look at the, the de demographics and, and you, you can see that there are certain bipoc groups that have um less representation in higher education that can result in less uh income and wealth equality down the road. So there are huge implications of this just in higher education. But a lot of our nonprofit organizations or the bulk of them are not in the education space. And even though they may deal um on the peripheral with, with what the impacts of this decision are on higher education, they may have more direct or may be feeling more direct consequences because affirmative action applies as a defense in other types of cases as well, including uh in the employment context and in sort of um contracting uh cases where organizations enter into contracts with different vendors and whether you can, uh say I’m going to base the selection of a vendor specifically on belonging to a particular race. Um And those laws exist, you know, protecting against discrimination in employment and in contract uh making and enforcing before the Supreme Court holding and that Supreme Court holding didn’t change these cases. But affirmative action was used was, has been used as a defense in both those cases, both those type of claims. So there’s the question now, if affirmative action is no longer a defense in some of the higher education and admissions cases, will they be a defense in employment cases and in the contracting cases? So there are implications for this that are unknown yet. But um the trend doesn’t, you know, doesn’t seem good. And we’re seeing organizations and wealthy conservative individuals who really want to challenge these laws across the spectrum. Um Finding cases to attack um organizations including nonprofits and saying we don’t think we’re gonna allow you to do this again. We’re gonna sue you and we’re gonna test it in court and see what happens

[00:10:41.28] spk_0:
and how many government agencies a, a, at all levels of government have, uh, you know, advantages for minority and women owned businesses, uh AAA preference. You know, you get a, you get a step up, it’s not the, it’s not the end, all, it’s not the sole factor but you get a, you get a, an advantage if you’re a minority and women owned business, for instance, those, those types of preferences you’re saying are now suspect at, uh, at, at, at best, I think

[00:11:29.82] spk_2:
they could be. I mean, so there are specific carve outs, um, in, in the laws that can apply for certain things. But, yeah, you know, even if you know what, if we took justice Roberts at his words, right. That type of program would not exist either. Right. So, um, you know, equal is equal and we don’t pay any attention to historical. Um, uh, we just don’t,

[00:11:51.39] spk_0:
we just don’t pay any attention to history. We just ignore what, what’s happened to minorities and, uh, in the country and, uh, we’ll, we’ll just wait, it’s a clean slate. We’ll just start with a clean slate. Everybody’s equal, which is, which is preposterous, you know, given our structures and invidious discrimination in, in seemingly benign places, uh, which are not benign. And, uh, yeah, we’ll just ignore history.

[00:12:17.11] spk_2:
All right. I so appreciate how you frame that because that goes directly to sort of like the book banning and the, uh, history textbooks in Florida and all of that as well. It’s the same kind of, um, you know, uh, same type of organizations and, and people who are driving those same sort of claims and, and nonprofits have to be paying attention because they could be on the other side of those claims.

[00:12:45.19] spk_0:
Yeah. All right. So let, let’s dig in a little deeper and, and see what uh your, your, your, your concerns are about the potential for uh for problematic areas. Uh Employment, you mentioned employment. What should we, what should we be conscious of, what should we, we be uh looking out for?

[00:15:43.77] spk_2:
So, you know, there have been some, some measures by, you know, some organizations that would do things or, or that that would um with well intentioned goals, I think, say, you know, we really would like to have, let’s say a bipoc leader in place. So, you know, uh you know, with the uh succession planning, if our executive director is leaving next year, we would really like to find somebody who is a bi park person to lead this organization because the majority of communities we serve are bipoc communities. And that might be their rationale in saying we’re gonna go out and we’re gonna look for a bio executive director um to be our next executive director if you’re overtly restricting the hiring of an executive director to specific racial categories, that’s a violation of employment laws. So, title, um, six would be those that are, you know, governmental agencies, title seven would extend out to private employers, including for profits and nonprofits. Um, and there are all sorts of state discrimination laws as well. Right. So if you are, you know, it, if you feel like you can’t say I’m only gonna hire a white executive director, you know, if that feels wrong, you probably can’t just say I’m going to hire a black or a bipoc executive director, sort of by the same token. So, um, that is something that’s just built into anti discs laws. The idea was to help those who are underrepresented and marginalized, um, from suffering uh, to prevent them from suffering from such discrimination. But, you know, some people have called it reverse discrimination now, but those, you know, those same principles still apply, those laws still apply. So if you restrict your hiring and make it a qualifying factor to be, you know, a member of a certain race that would be illegal if you use it as a plus factor, that may be illegal. So saying, well, all things being equal, we’re gonna hire the person of a certain race. So, you know, that’s kind of where, you know, there are some affirmative action defenses in there, um, where we are trying to correct certain systems that might be internal or they might be, um, the product of, of historical, um, problems. Um, and there were affirmative action defenses allowed in that, but I don’t know how strong they’re going to, to be able to, to hold up in light of this opinion. Um, we’ll have to see how it gets tested because it’s, it’s definitely not the same as university admissions. Um, but they’re both, you know, um, facing kind of similar pressures from, from some of the conservative groups who want to attack that as being discriminatory. So we’ll see how that goes in the employment context. But that let me stop there, tony and see if you have any thoughts about it.

[00:16:35.01] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Donor box quote. We’ve seen incredible results with Donor box in the last year. We’ve boosted our donations by 70% and launched new programs in literacy, health, child care and tailoring for our girls. That’s Jennings W founder and executive director of Uganda 10 18. If you’re looking for a fast, flexible and donor friendly fundraising platform for your organization, check out donor box donor Boxx dot org. Now back to possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision.

[00:17:24.60] spk_0:
This could apply to board membership too. It might be a very admirable goal because you serve a bipoc community. So you want your CEO and maybe other senior leaders and your board to be reflective, to be representative of the folks that you’re serving in your community. So it, it, it, it, it’s very it’s, it’s advantageous, it’s, it’s admirable. Um You wanna, you wanna empower folks uh who are among those? You’re, you’re helping? So how do you, how do you then frame this so that you’re, I don’t know, your, your board minutes, your, your board transcripts are, are not uh are not used as evidence against you.

[00:20:16.30] spk_2:
Yeah. So, um you raise some great issues. The first um is um board membership and saying, hey, what if, what about asking for only bipoc board members or black uh persons who identify as black as board members? That’s what we’re looking for now because our board is all white. Um Can we do that? And you have to be careful of tokenism, of course. But um there’s nothing in the laws, any discrimination laws that would prevent that from happening so long as board members are not employees, right or under contract with the organization. So the any discrimination laws are specific to employment. Um Yeah, and contracting, at least the ones we’re talking about today and I don’t know of any that um refer to sort of volunteer board positions. Um that would be protective of that. But um kind of what else you were um talking about is like, well, not all is lost and it’s not like, ok, we’ve got this decision, we’ve got these laws and we can’t get to um solving some of our problems, let’s say our, our white um managerial and executive staff were 99% white males, you know, for us to look for hiring for a little bit of diversity would seem to make sense. Um, but if you tell us, we can’t use it as a plus factor, we can’t use it as a requirement of our next hire. Really hamstrings us. So what can we do? And so the all is not lost theory is saying, well, look to other things. So what you can do is you can encourage applicants who are, uh who identify with particular race groups. If that’s what you want to do, you can encourage them to apply, you can make sure that you’ve got internal systems that ensures that they’re not going to be tokenized. Um, you are going to uh perhaps recruit in areas or from other sources that um uh provide more candidates um that represent the, the groups that you want. So all up until saying you must be of this race group or ethnic group to be considered eligible to be and a higher or we’re gonna give you, uh uh a plus factor where we’re gonna consider your application more attractive because you’re a member of a race group solely for that reason. That’s the problem. But in the admissions case, um in, in the Supreme Court case, they, the, the majority opinion said, hey, guess what? You can’t say race is the factor. But in the admissions essay, if you talk about character that was um shown in dealing with problems that you had specific and

[00:20:24.34] spk_0:
now you now on the individual level,

[00:20:27.38] spk_2:
right? So

[00:20:28.33] spk_0:
not the, not the, not the race or community level,

[00:20:31.37] spk_2:
although race obviously played a factor

[00:20:34.50] spk_0:
in that individual’s life. Right? But exactly, and you can run the level,

[00:21:57.18] spk_2:
you can use that as criteria. So some people say, well, and the, the the majority holding was also clear that hey, you can’t use that as pretext and just say, write whatever you want. And, you know, it’s really just about race, but it, you really ask them to, to, to write something about themselves and if they want to include something about their race and what they’ve, you know, um overcome uh because of discrimination, past discrimination, that may be evidence of character that you can use in your uh in your process. So while that’s not a really elegant solution, and um you know, you can use socioeconomic factors, for example, in the admissions uh policies. Um that’s not exactly the same as race and we’re, you know, trying to deal with race. If that’s what we’re left with, we, we still can use those tools. So, um again, you can use tools and other strategies to ensure that you do get a diverse pool. And that may allow you to find the most, you know, um person based on other characteristics that ends up being somebody um who belongs to a race or ethnicity that you really wanted to, to have in that position in order to um further your de I goals,

[00:22:00.80] spk_0:
anything else with uh employment gene?

[00:22:26.20] spk_2:
Um I would just say employment is probably sort of the biggest risk area. So just be for, for organizations even again, well intentioned and trying to deal with historic injustices, be very careful in the employment area. So, um you know, to the extent you can um try to get legal help, an employment lawyer. And, you know, for those who are in cities that have bar associations with, um you know, volunteer legal services programs, talk with them because I think that this may be a popular area for a lot of local bar associations to provide some, some pro bono counsel.

[00:22:48.21] spk_0:
We talked a little about contracts and, uh and I, I know you have concerns about uh grantees and, and grant tours as well. Uh uh around contracting uh around whether these are, in fact, contracts can we, can we move to, we move to that arena? Yeah.

[00:25:10.46] spk_2:
And, and so, um contracts in general, um all nonprofits enter into contracts, right? Or just about all nonprofits enter into contracts. So the law, um which is uh the federal law anyway, and civil rights laws referred to as section 1981. Uh and section 1981 generally prohibits discrimination in making or enforcing a contract. And that includes any, you know, enjoying any terms uh of a contract as well. So, if you were to again, similar to the employment contract, say we will only hire a vendor if they are a member of a specific ethnicity or race, that’s gonna be in violation of 1981. So probably for, for most people, that kind of makes sense. But we have seen, you know, especially, um I I in the last few years as our social justice efforts have have risen with publicity of like some highly charged events um uh that have been um so terrible. Um uh We have seen movements that said, hey, we really want to increase sort of how we’re contracting out with diverse vendors as well, not just employees. And so people have been saying things like, you know, let’s contract out with more bipoc individuals or more women owned businesses or, um you know, and they’ve been looking at different ways to sort of increase their de i efforts in uh establishing vendor relationships. Um And that’s something now that you have to be very careful about as well. So again, no, just like as in, in the employment context, you can’t have a requirement um or even a plus factor of, of, of saying, you know, if you’re a member of a particular race, then you don’t qualify for this contract or you will not, you, you will be dis preferred for, you know, reasons of, of selecting uh a vendor for, for this contract. Um So how does this fall in respect? I just

[00:25:38.88] spk_0:
before you before you make your, your follow on point. But I just want to remind folks that section 1981 is by no means new. This is Reconstruction Era. Yeah, 18 65 or four or something or probably 55 or 18 fi fi 18 65 or 66 was section 1981 to give freed slaves the all the benefits of contracts and, and, and this is the, the statute even says all the benefits that white people enjoy something like that. It’s in the, it’s in the text of the statute. So this is not nothing new is my point.

[00:28:16.56] spk_2:
Yeah. Um So, well, over 100 and 50 years old now. Um And it’s something that, that you have to pay attention to, again, affirmative action has been used in the past as defense um in 1981 claims, but we’re not exactly sure how that’s gonna pan out, but I, I wanted to give you a specific example because we talked about it or you alluded to it in the beginning about grant agreements. Um And so as lawyers, we kind of learned like what a contract means, right? And it basically is, there are more than one party to a contract and they agree, they make some mutual promises and they each provide each other with some sort of value. Lawyers call it consideration that goes back and forth. And if you have those elements, then you’re in a contract So the question now is, what is a grant, is a grant agreement or contract? Is it two parties? Yes. Are they mutually agreeing on a bunch of terms and things? Yes. Now, is there value being exchanged on both sides? Now, that’s where there’s an issue. So most people think of a grant as a gift, right? We even filed it in our nine nineties. We, we lumped them all in as gifts and grants and donations. And so, uh if a gift, if it’s a gift and there’s not value coming back, then maybe it’s not a contract because there’s not that equal or it doesn’t have to be equal, but there’s not that exchange of value. Um On the other hand, there are like provisions in grant agreements that say, well, you must do this with the grant monies and you must give us results, you know, show us what the results are of those things. And if you don’t, if you don’t use those monies for those things, you have to return it to us. Um And, and those terms start to look a little bit more like contract terms, right? Are we making a gift for a restricted purpose, which is very valid argument or are we making a payment to get something done? Not for maybe for the funder but getting something done out in the community or producing something because the funder wants that to happen. So really they’re paying for it and you’re delivering it. Is it more like a contract or a gift?

[00:29:09.98] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Kila increase donations and foster collaborative teamwork with Kila. The fundraiser, CRM maximize your team’s productivity and spend more time building strong connections with donors through features that were built specifically for fundraisers. A fundraiser. CRM goes beyond a data management platform. It’s designed with the unique needs of fundraisers in mind and aims to unify fundraising, communications and donor management tools into one single source of truth visit Kila dot co to sign up for a coming group demo and explore how to exceed your fundraising goals. Like never before. It’s time for Tony’s take two

[00:30:19.98] spk_0:
long time listeners. Oh, thank you, Kate. Thank you. Long time listeners will remember that this show used to be in a studio in New York City because I used to live stream the show every Friday. I’m pretty sure it was Friday at 1 p.m. from 1 to 2. And then from then I would start my weekend. Uh, and Sam Liebowitz was the producer of the show. He owned the studio where we used to do the show every Friday afternoon. And guests would come to, ideally, they would come to the studio and Sam had the idea of putting some what are called drops into the show and they’re, they’re uh essentially commercials. But for the show, it’s like, it’s like a testimonial. We would call it a, a testimonial for the show. And this is one of the uh early drops that, that we used in a bunch of shows, Sam inserted into a bunch of shows he would put them in, in postproduction. Let’s see if you, uh if you recognize anybody in this

[00:30:26.62] spk_3:
lively conversation, talk, trans, sound advice. That’s tony-martignetti Nonprofit radio. And I am his niece Carmela and I am his nephew Gino.

[00:30:40.30] spk_1:
How about,

[00:30:42.31] spk_0:
can you recognize anybody in that?

[00:30:44.18] spk_1:
That is so cute. We sound so tiny. That’s

[00:30:50.43] spk_0:
you and your brother and Carmela. I, we have this strange thing going on now because on the show, I always call you Kate but off stage or off mic, I, I call you Carmela, which everybody else calls you Kate. But I use Carmela because I think Carmel is a beautiful name and that’s your, your name is,

[00:31:07.81] spk_1:
it is a beautiful name and I’m very thankful to have it. It’s just a really long name. If I’m writing like my name on a piece of paper for school, it’s just, it’s too long.

[00:31:17.78] spk_0:
OK. Three syllables versus one. So all the, all the rest of the world, all the rest of the family uh and the world uh could use just one syllable Kate. I go with Carmela uh off, off mic. But so I think, uh you know, I think you sound like nine and Geno seven or so. He’s two years younger than you. To me. You sound like around nine and seven.

[00:31:40.58] spk_1:
You you might be right. I was thinking more 12 and 10, but I really don’t remember how old we were. But I, like, remember sitting in the dining room, you setting up the microphones and having a headset and being like, wow, this is so cool. I’m on my uncle’s podcast. Like this is the coolest thing ever.

[00:32:00.01] spk_0:
Yeah, I had the, I had brought my audio gear mics and headsets for everybody. Yes. Absolutely. This is, this is no 2nd, 2nd rate two bit operations.

[00:32:08.82] spk_1:
No, no, no, this is perfect.

[00:32:15.36] spk_0:
Absolutely. Non profit. We were sitting here your dining room table. Yeah. In your, yeah, in your, in your, is that, was that in, in the current home or was that the previous

[00:32:20.20] spk_1:
home? Yeah, I think this is in, it was in the current home. It

[00:32:55.91] spk_0:
was ok. Ok. You remember that? All right. Yeah, I don’t know. I, I should have a date on the file. Uh, but II I can’t find what date it was. Uh, you know, it’s, it should be dated with at least a year, but I, I can’t find that. So, Kate and Gino and I am your, I love that and I am his niece Carmela and I am his nephew Gino. So, all right. Do you know from the old days, uh when Sam Liebowitz at the studio used to put the drops in, uh for me in, in postproduction. So, anything else you remember about that?

[00:32:59.55] spk_1:
I remember, like trying to put the dogs in the crate so they weren’t running all over cords and stuff. Let

[00:33:21.71] spk_0:
the dogs out. Who let the dogs out. Right. Exactly. All right. Um, so that’s a, that’s an old, an old drop from the, from the olden days. Well, I, I still have to see if I can find out what year that was. All right. But, uh, thank you. And that is Tony’s take too. Go ahead, Kate.

[00:33:30.53] spk_1:
We’ve got just about a boat load more time. Let’s go back to possible implications of the Supreme Court’s affirmative action decision with Jean Takagi.

[00:34:13.79] spk_0:
Sounds like a good idea. And what you’re, what you’re delivering may very well be a promise you or you’re, you’re promising to deliver you. The grantee are promising and a promise has value, promise can be that exchange, that consideration. So it can be an exchange of money from the gran tour and promise from the grantee. That’s, that’s value. Again your point, not necessarily equal. They don’t have to be equal. They, they can even be Demi on one side. So promises are valuable and can be that exchange of consideration that you’re saying is an element of a contract.

[00:37:42.76] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s, that’s right, tony. So, um I don’t think we’ve seen this litigated, so we don’t really know what the argument is gonna look like when we have an idea of what the argument will look like. We don’t know how, how the court would treat this. Um, we’ve certainly seen kind of demin value in other extensive contracts being enforced and saying, well, that’s good enough. Um, but there is kind of this long history of grants being recognized as gifts and federal and state laws saying that, hey, if you’re going to make a grant or gift, this is a charity to another organization. You have to have some steps to ensure that it’s actually being used for charitable purposes and private foundations have even more laws. Um uh that, that say you have to exercise expenditure responsibility, which all sorts of due diligence procedures and provisions in the grant agreement itself that must be included in order to make a gift. So, is that contract or is that just saying, hey, comply with the laws so we can make this gift to you? So, yeah, there’s some more nuanced academic arguments that, that, you know, people can make about this, but we’re starting to see the attack, right? So we’re now starting to see people go, hey, um on a contract. Um if you, if you’re making grants and you’re saying these grants are only to buy pock led organizations or black led organizations, that’s not uncommon, right? Tonya, I think we’re seeing quite a bit of that. Um now that can get attacked and where it could always have been attacked. But I think the Supreme Court holding has shown that, oh, if you want to attack it and somebody were to raise it up the appellate level to, you know, to, to the Supreme Court level. Um or appellate courts might just say defer and say this is so much similar to the rationale in, in the, the students for fair admissions case that we are going to just say um that this is a contract and this is sort of a a violation of 1981. So that’s kind of the, the concern there with grant agreements is, is, are they contracts, are they worded like contracts? And you know, maybe one of the steps that some grantmakers can take if they want to be careful about that, um is to try to um make more unrestricted grants and not have so many conditions that tied tied to the grant. So not so many promises coming from the other side, right, tony said to, to sort of minimize um what the value might look like that’s being returned, but still sort of complying with the laws um that require that the grantees spend the money properly. Um So one strategy anyway, there are going to be others and um I don’t want to discourage people from, you know, looking to make grants to buy pock led organizations, but they have to be careful on, on how they worded. And so just like with the employment context or the admissions context for that matter, it’s recruiting your vendors from different places, you can really seek to diversify the pool of applicants that come because it could be very um unequal in how we’ve approached vendor relationships in general, which might be just friends of board members or, you know, um people we already know or do business with and that might be the same people that have always done business um with the organization when it may not have been so focused on de I so

[00:38:36.66] spk_0:
very narrow narrowing. So, right, Con raising consciousness. Um and I, I feel like talking about contracts, we’ve ventured into a little bit of uh nonprofit radio law school about uh consideration and the bargain for exchange. But we did it, we did it in simple terms. I think so. Uh but everybody gets a uh everybody gets one cle credit for listening, this uh lawyers, you get one continuing legal education credit for listening to today’s uh this episode. Um Any other areas. What, what, what else, what else concerns you uh uh about uh discrimination and, and places where we should be conscious.

[00:40:03.97] spk_2:
Um So I’ll, I’ll give you maybe just a couple more examples of some dangerous areas or areas of concern and then I, I’ll try to end with something a little bit more positive. Um So on, on the concerning area. Uh in Missouri, the attorney general there directed all colleges to immediately stop considering race and scholarships. Um So, um not that wasn’t admissions based but just on scholarships. Um Lots of nonprofits need scholarships and fellowships for that matter. And, um, and other sorts of, uh, grants to individuals? And are those kind of now going to be attacked in some states in Missouri in Kentucky? Uh, the university’s president suggested that his institution should do the same thing, the, um, the Kentucky University president. So, you know, this is going around, um, the same person or organization backed by the same person, um, who funded the fund, the, the, the lawsuits in the affirmative action cases also. Yes. So they’ve also attacked um uh the Fearless Fund, which is uh an equity fund that was um aimed at helping um uh bipoc entrepreneurs think that was based um in Georgia. I’m not positive about

[00:40:20.00] spk_0:
that. Say the name of the fund again,

[00:42:24.24] spk_2:
Fearless Fund. So it’s not a, not, not a nonprofit fund, but it could have been, but it was looking to, to um specifically uh raise equity um for, you know, by uh led organizations or businesses. Um And that’s being attacked, same group also attacked two law firms for fellowship programs that were targeted at, at bipoc um individuals and, and raising diversity as part of their DE I program. So you, you can probably see all of the um just the, the, the statements um and the rhetoric coming out uh about um de I programs and, you know, some people attacking DE I programs in general, that’s, um you know, on the positive side, um that’s de I programs are not attack kind of all in general. Um, can certainly have a goal to increase diversity, equity and inclusion. Um That certainly can be a value of your organization and eliminating prejudice and discrimination is a valid 501 c three purpose in the regulations. So all of that is to, you know, it is to say there are ways to deal with some of the bad news that are coming out of the court systems. Um and laws that I don’t think are very good for, for racial justice and social justice, there are ways to deal with it. They’re not perfect. Um And will continue to find ways to advance racial equity and social justice. Um But you want to make sure especially for organizations that can’t, you know, afford to be on the forefront of, of saying, hey attack us, we want you to take us to court and we will, you know, fight the battles for you. Um You know, like the AC lu and the Nation League and like those that are experienced and have resources to be able to handle that type of litigation. You just have to be really careful that you’re not attacked and that, you know, defending that um diverts all of your resources away from getting the, the job done for your beneficiaries that you want. Um And so to, to really be careful of that,

[00:42:57.62] spk_0:
but i it’s important to underscore that these are still very valid and accepted charitable purposes. The, the reduction, elimination of discrimination, you know, elevating, elevating uh uh people of uh uh lower, you know, uh uh underserved populations, et cetera. I mean, these are all, these are all still very valid charitable purposes.

[00:43:51.02] spk_2:
And yeah, I, I would encourage funders to double down on their efforts to help these marginalized groups and organizations that are helping these marginalized groups. Um because um they may not all have the resources to be able to fight uh off uh other groups that, that decide that they want to attack. Uh some of the things that they’re doing and helping to educate um organizations as well, really, really helpful. So for community foundations and other capacity building organizations that are giving advice to, to nonprofits in general, yes, there are some organizations that can sort of take the courageous ground and uh take risks um with respect to some of these issues. Um But there are other organizations that, you know, really their beneficiaries are reliant on them to continue their service services. And um they just have to be a little bit more careful and if it just takes a little wordsmithing um to be careful in their documents, then, you know, they can really be helped by that

[00:45:45.33] spk_0:
interesting point about, you know, scholarships too because they’re, they’re so widely used. Uh you know, it’s not just their own, my, my sense of the, the race based affirmative action, affirmative admissions was that, you know, that’s at, uh, schools that have the luxury of getting, you know, maybe hundreds of applicants for each spot or something. You know. So they, so they were, uh, previously, you know, had some spots designated, um, to put it simply, but scholarships are at probably every institution, regardless of how many applicants they get per, you know, how selective they can be. Scholarships are, are so widely used. So, it’s, it’s not just large institutions that, you know, it’s, that, that’s another instance of it, you know, trickling down, uh to, to smaller institutions, the implications trickling down. All right. Uh Did you want to leave us with something uh uplifting and, and uh positive? Well, now we, we, you know, we did say these, these are still valid charitable purposes. Don’t abandon your work. We’re not, you know, we just, uh, I, I invited Gene to raise consciousness. You know, you need to just be more alert now than, uh, than you were. Uh, although, as we said, section 1981 has been around since the 18 sixties. So that, that’s, there’s nothing new around the, the contracting conversation but uh Gene, we, what do you want to uh, leave us with something even brighter than that?

[00:46:37.96] spk_2:
Well, there have been some foundations that have been doing really good work, um, and um individual sort of um donors who have really been supporting the efforts of racial justice and social justice organizations Um, and they are saying that this is a bump in the road. Um, and they will find ways to continue focusing, uh, on advancing their racial justice and social justice goals. Um And I’m hoping that sort of, everybody who believes in those goals continues to, like, really be supportive of them and helping, uh, others who are in the same, uh, sort of have the same set of values to, to deal with these bumps that we are experiencing in the road with, with some of the Supreme Court decisions and finding ways to move forward. It’s not time to sort of move back or just become completely defensive. It’s time to act and act in a, in a way that, um, sort of continues to advance uh what we want in our country and in our world

[00:47:46.85] spk_0:
in, you need to read and subscribe to his uh nonprofit law blog where he’s the editor and uh, follow him at G tech. And if you need the services of an attorney, uh, should your clients need to be in California? No, they don’t need to be in California. No. Right. Jean. No, you have, you have clients, you have clients nationwide. I know that I never, I withdraw that question because I know the answer. If you need help with uh the law and legal issues and you’re a nonprofit organization, I would unqualified, suggest you look at, uh Neola group dot com doesn’t matter where you are in the country. Thank you very much, Gene. Always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts

[00:47:51.60] spk_2:
so much. Appreciate it, tony. Thank you. All right, bye

[00:47:54.84] spk_0:
till next time.

[00:48:04.13] spk_1:
Next week, Brian Saber returns with his new book fundraising for introverts. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I

[00:48:07.30] spk_0:
beseech you find it at Tomm martignetti dot com.

[00:48:53.10] spk_1:
We sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity Donor box, fast flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor Boxx dot org and by Kila grow revenue, engage donors and increase efficiency with Kiva. The fundraisers, CRM visit Kila dot co to join the thousands of fundraisers using Kila to exceed their goals. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein.

[00:49:00.00] spk_0:
Thank you for that affirmation. Scottie be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.