Nonprofit Radio for March 20, 2020: Your Organization’s Health

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My Guest:

Jamie Bearse: Your Organization’s Health
At ZERO, The End of Prostate Cancer, they have a culture grounded in high responsibility, high freedom, transparency, accountability, curiosity and adaptability. They’re a Nonprofit Times 50 Best Places To Work. Jamie Bearse is ZERO’s CEO.

 

 

 

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[00:00:27.68] spk_0:
This is Sam Liebowitz, the line producer for tony-martignetti non profit radio, and I have a message for you from tony this show to its pre recorded today. When I recorded it, the 2020 non profit technology conference was going ahead. Not surprisingly, it’s been cancelled, no less grateful to Cougar Mountain software for sponsoring non profit radio at the conference. So I’m going ahead with Tony’s Take two. I thank you for your understanding. I hope you’re well and safe and taking care of those close to

[00:00:49.14] spk_2:
you. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:01:26.61] spk_1:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our seventh show in the Innovators. Siri’s your organization’s health At zero the end of prostate cancer, they have a culture grounded in high responsibility. Hi freedom, transparency, accountability, curiosity and adaptability and Maur. There are non profit times, 50 based best places to work. Jamie Burst is zeros CEO

[00:01:33.34] spk_2:
on tony Stick to 20 and T. C were sponsored by

[00:01:34.00] spk_1:
wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com.

[00:01:39.02] spk_2:
But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund

[00:01:41.34] spk_1:
is there. Complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day

[00:01:48.12] spk_2:
trial and by turned to communications,

[00:01:50.95] spk_1:
PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:01:58.94] spk_2:
It’s a real pleasure

[00:02:29.30] spk_1:
to welcome Jamie Burst to the show. He is CEO of Zero the End of Prostate Cancer. Over 15 years, he’s held nearly every job there, and they’ve raised about $100 million for the cause. Zero has six consecutive years as a non profit times. 50 Best places to work. Jamie has been a congressman’s press secretary, a reporter and editor, a radio deejay and a movie theatre projectionist. He writes comedy as a hobby. Zero is at zero. Cancer dot or GE, and he is at Jamie Bearse Bursts. Welcome. Welcome

[00:02:36.66] spk_2:
to the show, Jamie Bars

[00:02:38.74] spk_5:
I tony thing for having

[00:02:39.70] spk_2:
me on. It’s my pleasure.

[00:02:43.72] spk_5:
Quite a bit of research that many years back before you uh uh, get being a projectionist.

[00:02:52.31] spk_2:
Uh, yeah, way Have always saying on

[00:02:52.93] spk_1:
this show that I need an intern. Whenever I make a mistake, I say I need an intern to blame to blame for that mistake. But

[00:02:59.36] spk_2:
yeah, we don’t We don’t actually have

[00:03:03.77] spk_1:
interns. This is All of this is all either uncovered or, uh, somebody at zero. Give it to us.

[00:03:08.04] spk_6:
I

[00:03:08.10] spk_2:
mean, I don’t know who’s the US. We might talk about us. Me? Um, so So you’re doing some innovative things at

[00:03:16.23] spk_1:
zero. The way you define the culture with the culture of there is based on and the way it’s it’s service oriented. Um, we’re gonna get into all that. We get the full hour together. Obviously. The place to start, though, is acquaint us with. We’re gonna be talking a lot about what goes on at zero of as employees. What is zeros work?

[00:04:57.51] spk_5:
Sure. Our mission is right there in our name. Um, hear the end of prostate cancer. We’re being too and prostitutes or by advancing research, improving the lives of men and families and inspiring action And how that breaks down that we fight to increase prostate cancer research funding. Uh, we inspire action among men and families through a run walk series that we have that 47 cities across the country from L. A to New York to Minneapolis, to Miami and all points in between. And we have ah ah, quite a Amiri out of programs in order to be able to help like Krusty Cancer. And uh, at the top of that list that I’m most proud of is this program called 0 360 that we step in to have a patient navigator palpitation for free, doing comprehensive work on their behalf to being able to reduce financial distress. But a patient goes through while battling cancer research shows that nearly half its about 40% actually of cancer patients and quitting their treatment altogether because of financial issues. So we step in and help pave the way so they can get better and have a happy, healthy life with that, with their family going forward.

[00:05:01.95] spk_1:
And I presume there’s some kind of lobbying that you’re doing is well, for, ah, awareness among our our leaders.

[00:05:48.14] spk_5:
That’s right. We do advocacy work. I just just concluded our annual zero prosecutes or summit down in Washington, D. C. Where we had advocates from all of the country actually coming in from 40 states, and, uh, we send them to Capitol Hill to fight for, to protect an increase prostate cancer research funding. Onda, um, interesting side Good here is that not a lot of people know this, but the Department of Defense, please, is a significant role in the war on cancer. Um, like I said not. Not many people know that, but what they do. And there’s a program called the Prostate Cancer Research Program within the Department of Defense that has done some pretty significant breakthroughs and prostate cancer treatment screening,

[00:05:54.68] spk_2:
even

[00:06:18.15] spk_5:
for new treatments for prostate cancer in the last eight and 1/2 years. And, uh, you, uh, screening tool that is able to identify if you have an indolent to mark or an aggressive one. That’s really our, um, our advocates work over the years, and coming out to this summit has really paid off in a big way to be able to helped three million American

[00:06:22.71] spk_1:
those recent breakthroughs that you just described. They came from the department defense.

[00:06:49.45] spk_5:
It was funded by the Department of Defense. They go out to institutions around the country from places like Johns Hopkins, MD. Anderson Um, University of California, San Francisco. Institutions like that do you do the work, but the funding is geared toward being able to rush brilliant ideas from the science bench to the patient’s bedside is rapidly and constantly as possible.

[00:07:11.74] spk_1:
Okay, um, and you’re right. That 40% figure is startling that 40% of men end their treatments for prostate cancer for financial reasons that that’s that’s I don’t know, it’s upsetting. It’s annoying. It’s frustrating on its Shouldn’t be, uh, she’s

[00:07:15.73] spk_2:
okay. Um, how many employees

[00:07:18.30] spk_1:
at AA zero?

[00:07:21.35] spk_5:
Right now we have 32

[00:07:23.64] spk_2:
including victory

[00:07:24.60] spk_5:
and the year somewhere closer to 40. 39. 30 38 39 please.

[00:07:38.64] spk_1:
Oh, are you You’re gonna be close to 40 body into this year. Okay, that’s that’s pretty substantial growth for a 32 person organization. And, uh, on that includes virtual employees, right?

[00:08:11.50] spk_5:
That’s right. Yeah. We have employees all around the country. I would say about half of half an employee there in the Washington D C area. Uh, and then we have chapter directors that are scattered around the country. Several in California. I’m outside of Boston. Uh, yes, Chapter director and Texas in Minneapolis. And another one in New Jersey. And, um, another one in l. A.

[00:08:15.27] spk_2:
Okay, so you you have virtual over. Well, is on site. Okay, well, I bring that out

[00:08:38.03] spk_1:
because I think that has implications for a lot of what we’re gonna be talking about. The core values. I mean, how do you have you instill those in virtual employees who don’t have whoever who don’t have the benefit of on site on dure high touch? And that’s, you know, that can be isolating. So hopefully we’ll get a little into what? What your work is to make sure that that doesn’t become the case. The reality for the for the folks who are virtual

[00:08:51.04] spk_2:
yes. So, you know, we want to get into some of

[00:08:53.91] spk_1:
the details of the culture. We just have Jamie. We have about a minute or so before our first break. Okay, I’ll let you know when they’re coming up. So, um, you want to just talk a little about just briefly and just sort of tease it and we’ll get into Maura lot a lot more about being like, um hi. Responsibility and high freedom,

[00:10:14.88] spk_5:
I’m sure. Absolutely. Um are our culture is what sets us apart in order to be able thio make ending prosecutor a culture driven passion. If you Will and, um, in Global will break that down. Um, as we talked throughout the hour. But what it comes down to having the right values that everybody shares across the organization. It’s, um, committing thio, um, five aspects on how we over communicate with each other in order to be able to drive clarity. Um, and it comes down Thio, as you just said, Hi. Hi. Responsibility and high for Gemma’s bringing people into the organization that have a high level of, ah, off, uh, self regulated self management, um, that have high responsibility. And when individuals with the high level of responsibility. Um, I’m sorry. Individuals with a high level of responsibility are entitled Thio High level of freedom. And we’ll we’ll dive into that too.

[00:11:22.58] spk_1:
Yeah, we absolutely Well, all right. We got to take this break about 30 seconds wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time wegner-C.P.As so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner who you know, just on the show. But last week, you two and ah, and the firm experience as well, with a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under their belt so that your financial needs are not only covered but well covered, and you get the benefit of lots of their vast experience around nonprofits. Wegner-C.P.As dot com The place to start your due diligence as you’re exploring the possibility of new work for help with the 90 or audit. Okay, um, now let’s go back to your organization’s health. Jamie burst CEO at

[00:11:24.40] spk_2:
zero. Um what? What does this mean,

[00:11:28.83] spk_1:
20 to be high responsibility,

[00:11:54.01] spk_5:
I’m sure I actually have my gift. Thio steer back to, um make him actually make the case for organizational health there. There’s a lot of, uh, organizations out there that believe if you’re the you’re the smartest organization out there, then you’ll be successful. Um, and I don’t necessarily believe that that is true. I think that

[00:11:54.80] spk_2:
that that

[00:14:59.64] spk_5:
helps. Ah, but it really starts with having a healthy organization, an organization where folks within it are our, um are honest with each other in a way that they embrace vulnerability based on trust, and, uh, we can get into exactly what that means. But what it kind of looks like is that it means that it’s okay to say that I made a mistake, or you’re better at this than I am. Or, um, I messed this up, but, uh, next time I’m gonna do even even better than when you have that vulnerability. Been trust with one another, you’re able to engage in healthy conflict, and conflict happens. Ah, in any relationship, any organization. But I tell you how you handle that conflict in a way that you’re you have confidence of communication, that you get what you want while preserving the relationship that you have in a way that’s acceptable for everyone who’s involved. And, um, that looks like, um, understanding if I think that when it comes to conflict, people are either either one of the other, either people are bulls in China, shops or people are conflict of waiters. Now there’s some people who are also kind of ambidextrous without depending on the situation. Sometimes they’re bulls in China shops, and sometimes they’re just avoid complex altogether. But understanding your colleagues and what their appetite is for conflict and how they handle it and engaging in healthy conflict, where you really hear each other out in a healthy manner allows you to drive to commitment together on DDE. That looks like, um, excuse me, That looks like, um asking clarifying questions of like, Okay, you know what? I’m What I hear you saying is X y Z, and that gives a chance for the other person. Thio change that. Clarify that, or confirm. Confirm that that that’s, um that’s what everybody’s saying. That that way we’d have a good, clear understanding of what decisions are being committed to what goals are being committed to. And when that happens, it sets up an atmosphere for a peer to peer accountability in which, you know, something doesn’t go the way that we’ve committed to doing something. It opens the door to asking questions and getting really curious about like Okay, what I thought we committed to was X y z, But what happened was a b. C. Um, you know what happened or what changed along the way and being able t o get an understanding of how things fell apart. And if, um, if maybe, um that that accountability looks like, um seeing, uh, your kind truth, which is, you know, being able to give somebody feedback in a way where you care personally but challenged them directly

[00:15:05.46] spk_2:
on.

[00:15:11.64] spk_5:
And, um, that that comes down to saying that you acknowledge, um, how much they care about the cause and how much they care about their relationship.

[00:15:17.93] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:15:38.64] spk_5:
I want to do and I mean job, but also challenges them directly on improving. But when you have all that working together, the trust, uh, healthy conflict, that commitment, the peer to peer accountability that really wipes away a lot of the B s that can happen in organizations, the water cooler talk that goes on. And then you can really just roll up your sleeves and get to work and focus on results.

[00:15:44.52] spk_2:
Yeah. Jamie, where do these

[00:15:45.98] spk_1:
ideas come from? You kind truth and over communicating vulnerability based trust. What’s the genesis of these ideas?

[00:16:11.24] spk_5:
They come from different places, but But I really loved what isn’t Is an author out there, uh, by the name of Patrick Ngoni, who put out a book a few years back called The Advantage by organizational. Health trumps everything else in business, and he talks a lot about vulnerability. Based trust is having healthy conflicts. So some of it comes from there, and then

[00:16:18.18] spk_2:
some of

[00:16:34.64] spk_5:
it, uh, sort of picked up along the way and really puzzled puzzle piece this together. And some of the ideas come from, uh, Silicon Valley and Netflix in the amazing growth that they’ve had through the years. Um, and then from her mother,

[00:16:37.34] spk_2:
Okay. From other

[00:16:38.27] spk_5:
places just picked up along the way.

[00:16:40.24] spk_2:
One of the things I don’t

[00:16:41.08] spk_1:
know about you.

[00:16:41.71] spk_2:
Are you the founder of Zero?

[00:16:59.16] spk_5:
I’m not actually, I The organization started in 1996. I came on in 2002 as, uh uh, doing communications. And, uh, we did really well. And that CEO at the time, And I think a couple of years later came to me and said, Hey, you know, there’s a lot of transferable skills on, um, getting media placement, Thio getting people toe donate to the organization. So,

[00:17:09.53] spk_2:
yeah, come

[00:17:10.74] spk_5:
through and responsibility from there,

[00:17:12.37] spk_1:
right? All right. I know. I know. You progress through lots of different responsibilities. Um,

[00:17:17.97] spk_2:
okay. What? What does um, what is high freedom? Translate to

[00:17:23.69] spk_5:
Hi, freedom. High responsibility have freedom. Uh,

[00:17:26.55] spk_2:
you know

[00:18:21.44] spk_5:
that if you’re, um if you’re getting your job done, if you’re hitting all of your goals and you’re behaving with three values that we sent off across the organization and ex selling on all of it. Then year entitled to having high freedom. Which means, um, we don’t track personal time off. Believe in, uh, have being able to establish work life balance by taking the time that you need Thio? Uh, yes, Teoh, go to the doctor’s office, take a vacation. Um, you get your car fixed. Whatever it takes in orderto have that work life balance because if you again going back to the high responsibility part, those who are highly responsible are not going to abuse the system because they constantly want to stay on top of They’re they’re game stand off of their job and the tasks that they have to do and really excel it.

[00:18:26.18] spk_1:
Yeah, yes,

[00:19:06.24] spk_5:
when that happens and we don’t need to micromanage And, um, it also but also ties into, um, being able to give, um direct in the moment can to feed back another way that were much different from other organizations. But do you like end of the year reviews? Instead, we thought with with giving feedback in the moment, Why wait? It’s almost, you know, Why? Why wait, uh, nine or 10 months to the end of the year just to talk about some of the things that you could have corrected. And in the winter of spring, you hear the feedback now and corrected.

[00:19:07.11] spk_2:
So that means, like, as

[00:19:08.09] spk_1:
a project is ongoing, you know, there’s a justice is constant of feedback loop, as as something goes well or goes badly.

[00:19:17.32] spk_5:
Yeah, way.

[00:19:24.84] spk_2:
Just look down. Just I’m What does this look

[00:19:25.48] spk_1:
like? I’m trying to drill down. So people get a sense of what the what the work patterns are and communications patterns?

[00:19:33.04] spk_5:
Uh, yeah. The constant feedback loop is, uh, mostly around or three values that we have and that’s being humble, hungry and smart.

[00:19:40.84] spk_1:
Yes, you’re a J HHS.

[00:21:02.94] spk_5:
That’s right. Right? You got it. Humble breaks down into, um, it’s very it’s very straightforward. It’s putting team accomplishments in front of your own. You go hungry means that you’re driving for success. You’re looking for that? I’m next opportunity. Um, you’re good with stepping in outside of your, um your job description or your area of expertise to be able to help others across the organization and smart as a little nuanced. It’s It has a lot to do with, um, emotional intelligence rather than book smarts. And that comes down Thio being being attentive listener and understanding how you’re behavior in your actions affect others across the organization. So ah, lot of the feedback happens around those values. They believe that everybody’s gonna make this cake, but, um, everybody’s gonna fail and hopefully we fail fast. We learn from those mistakes and, uh, way we strive for for success. But it really starts with having those three values lived by all the time and being able to get feedback on how you’re impacting others through two or three values. Um, is what set this up for? For that success?

[00:21:32.11] spk_1:
Yeah, HHS humble, hungry and smart, I thought of health and Human Service is, but I know it’s not that on Dino. It’s not humanities and Health Service’s either. That was something that I think of the Carnegie Mellon University, but I was flashing back. But so So there’s a lot of communication around these three. Like, this is the Those are the three, um, sort of bedrocks of feedback. Is that right?

[00:22:05.43] spk_5:
Uh, yes, because again, if we were behaving in a way that humble, hungry and smart Everything else falls into place. Uh, after that, it really goes back to you know, if you’ve made a mistake or you’re not, um, you don’t, don’t you? Ah, you know, cast the right way. Um, you know, those things happen. It’s inevitable, human. But But if you’re your behavior is in a way, what say that, um example

[00:22:07.00] spk_1:
stories, air. Good. If you can think of something, that’s

[00:22:56.58] spk_5:
a good one. Um, sure. Um so if if, um if I’m being humble and hungry. But I’m not, um, sort of lack that emotional intelligence in a way that I don’t. But to really understand fully how my actions are, the things I say, uh, fall on other people and how that how it makes them feel or motivates them. Then I sort of turn into an accidental mess maker like I’m driven and want to succeed. You hungry? I’m humble and putting a put the team first. But if I don’t understand how my actions are affecting others and not inspiring them, that I’m going around an organization and making messes all over the place rather than really understanding how You know, my words or actions are falling on others.

[00:23:01.54] spk_1:
I’m getting nervous that I could never survive it. Zero? I

[00:23:05.00] spk_2:
don’t know. I would want to. I certainly would strive

[00:23:06.75] spk_1:
to. I’m not by any means putting down what? Your what? Your Ah, the way you work. I’m just not I don’t

[00:23:13.00] spk_2:
know. I hope I hope I would It would be something like that.

[00:23:15.15] spk_1:
Out of that I inspired too. But I’m not sure that I would

[00:23:18.44] spk_5:
touch people all the time. It’s not. It’s not an issue of Ah, you know, if you if you fall off in one way or you’re not being, you know, if you’re missing one of these, uh, out of HHS, uh, we caught you along,

[00:23:33.09] spk_2:
okay.

[00:23:41.04] spk_5:
And help you help you get there and being well rounded. Tell me when. Yeah, if you refused to be, embrace the values of our culture.

[00:23:43.53] spk_2:
Yeah, Dad. And

[00:23:44.62] spk_5:
then it’s done. That’s when it’s time. Just part ways.

[00:23:47.34] spk_1:
Somebody says this is gonna

[00:24:29.99] spk_5:
fire anybody or part ways with anybody because of the mystical or hey, we’re all pulling together for certain budget number or a certain number of patients helped, you know, There are outside factors that have have an impact on that. No. Why should anybody get punished? A replica reprimanded for outside forces that impact our ability to drive to a goal. It’s only internally and really self managing yourself around these values. Its what you can control. And if you’re open and willing to be coached, we’ll get you there.

[00:24:30.75] spk_1:
Okay. Maybe I’d have a shot. Uh, keep my

[00:24:33.42] spk_2:
eye before

[00:24:36.61] spk_5:
that. He’s going back. Um hey. Started 18 years ago. I’m not sure the organization were higher. Uh,

[00:24:45.52] spk_1:
that’s true for a lot of us. Uh, I’m not sure I’m qualified for some of the jobs I used to hold, but

[00:24:51.13] spk_2:
I’m not. I’m not sure I’d want

[00:25:15.02] spk_1:
them anymore, either. I think about I think about the dysfunction that I used to survives in some places and, uh, okay. Plus, I was in the Air Force, had five years. Ah, Whiteman Air Force Base in the Air Force. And, um, there’s not a lot of at least then I didn’t see a lot of emotional intelligence. Um, in any case. Okay, well, I’m gratified to know I’d have a shot. I’d have a mentor. I’d have some help

[00:25:20.20] spk_2:
this has I have lots of questions, but this has implications

[00:25:22.98] spk_1:
for obviously, you’re sort of you’re alluding to it

[00:25:28.17] spk_2:
toe higher for hiring. How do you screen

[00:25:29.01] spk_1:
for someone who was gonna embrace HHS?

[00:25:33.04] spk_5:
Yeah, that’s a great question.

[00:25:34.72] spk_2:
It’s

[00:25:44.54] spk_5:
funny. Would be, uh stop. Say this in the two parts one is, uh we have, ah, a lengthy interview process where we, uh, make sure that, uh, more quite half the organization, but I would say, get 8 to 10 people across the organization, end up meeting the candidate to get to know them.

[00:25:55.54] spk_2:
I’m not

[00:26:12.51] spk_5:
sure that that somebody, especially the potential direct report of this person, spent some face time outside of the conference room of the the office where we typically would have interviews to just get out and grab a cup of coffee or whatever. Just you see what they’re like outside of the office to really get to get to know them.

[00:26:16.55] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:26:36.94] spk_5:
And then, uh, we’ll get through the interview process, its funding. It always seems to fall on me when it gets to the later stages of the interview process. Thio, ask all these really quirky questions that I don’t think anybody’s ever done before. And I ask things like, um, tell me. Tell me about, um you know, what would your friends of your colleagues say? It’s most annoying about you.

[00:26:41.45] spk_1:
Oh, jeez. I killed myself. That would be

[00:26:51.64] spk_2:
I don’t mean I killed I killed the interview, and I don’t mean I don’t mean I’d kill it. I mean, I’d kill my chance if I started talking about what my friends think of me. Oh, my God. Yeah. What your friends say, Oh, my God,

[00:26:56.38] spk_5:
About you.

[00:27:05.28] spk_1:
Yeah, well, he he does stand up comedy, you know? But I don’t. He’s berating a little bit. I don’t know. He worries about commas in e mails.

[00:27:09.54] spk_5:
I did that.

[00:27:15.93] spk_1:
Yeah. What would my friend said? What would you have that I’m kind of? I’m just tinkering around the edges.

[00:27:16.84] spk_2:
That’s a great question. What would my I think you know what I think my friend would say. I think he’s a He’s a loyal guy. Like he’s the guy who puts people together all the time. He’s always drawing. It’s a guy who always creates the Air Force for Union and the high school reunion and the the law School reunion. You know, this is the guy. I think he’s always putting us together, even through all the years when we had kids

[00:27:36.04] spk_1:
and because I don’t have kids. So when people have kids and they couldn’t make the reunions, I would still keep in touch, would send pictures to the people who couldn’t

[00:27:43.52] spk_2:
come. I would I would say they probably would say, I’m like the connector. I’m the people The guy who, like brings through the decades

[00:27:50.71] spk_1:
has been bringing people together. I think that’s what they would say.

[00:27:55.63] spk_2:
That is, that is, I know I

[00:27:57.81] spk_1:
was focusing on the comes in the e mails I was being Hearst to myself. I was being humble, was trying to embrace you. Humility.

[00:28:05.19] spk_2:
But that’s cool. I don’t have another turn

[00:28:06.61] spk_5:
it around and say, What kind of people do you find less knowing,

[00:28:11.04] spk_2:
uh, people who don’t

[00:28:28.03] spk_1:
treat people with respect? You know, just that could be ah ah, and in consideration on the subway. Or it could be harsh words, or it could be just I think of unkindness. I mean, it’s unkind to leave food in the office refrigerator for too long. Um,

[00:28:33.08] spk_2:
you know people who don’t treat others with respect

[00:28:35.05] spk_1:
those people, those people. Really? Yes. Because

[00:28:38.59] spk_2:
sanadi

[00:28:39.04] spk_5:
handle it.

[00:28:40.78] spk_2:
Um, on the extreme, I

[00:28:49.33] spk_1:
will, uh, this is on the far side. I will. I will not deal with them as much. I will. I will keep a distance because it could be infectious. And I don’t want to be infected that way. But for every other part of the spectrum,

[00:29:06.04] spk_2:
um, I try. I try to coach I mean, you know, but it’s Yeah. I try to help Andi. I certainly

[00:29:12.83] spk_1:
am acting the way this is turning into. You’re not charging me 300 bucks an hour for this. Are you starting it starting into a therapy session?

[00:29:24.50] spk_2:
No, I tried toe way around. Usually. Don’t let people do this. You’re an anarchist. No, but I’ll follow. I’ll finish

[00:29:25.65] spk_1:
the thought since I started. You asked.

[00:29:27.73] spk_2:
I try to act

[00:29:28.61] spk_1:
in the way. I’m always acting in the way that I would like to be to be acted upon or, you know,

[00:29:42.02] spk_2:
treated the way I like. I treat others the way I like to be treated. So certainly by setting an example. But for a lot of people, that the example isn’t enough. Um, so it’s those ones in the middle that don’t that don’t learn

[00:29:53.92] spk_1:
from me by example of others that you have to sort of sit down and, you know, and that that could be difficult. How am I doing?

[00:30:55.34] spk_5:
You know how great I mean, the reason for those three questions is it, uh, drives to one of those values that I just talked about because, uh, smart We’re having that emotional intelligence that you understand. You have a good understanding of what what your weaknesses are and how people view you. Almost. I wouldn’t say at your worst, but like, you know what’s most annoying about you. At least you have understanding of how you behave and interact with other people and have that we see how that basic understanding and then know how you can rub people the wrong way. And then it also tells me of, um, you’re aware of what kinds of of of people sort of rub you the wrong way and how you sort of Copa that are managed. That and, uh, you know, if it was a real interview, I might choke down a little bit more on that You know how. How would you treat those kinds of people that I know you’re the most when you come across them? If if you were working out there So it’s sticking

[00:30:56.03] spk_2:
a gun

[00:31:01.67] spk_5:
on my quirky questions. Gonna come in a way of trying to get an understanding. Do we? Do we have a humble, hungry, smart person coming in the door?

[00:31:05.07] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:31:11.52] spk_5:
right off the bat. Because we know that they’re gonna be a rock star in their time If if if they’ve already got it figured out.

[00:31:46.54] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. All right. We got to take another break, Jamie. Hang on. Cook, Amount and software. Their accounting product, Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features that you need and the exemplary support you’ve heard me talk about That understands you and how you work. They have a free 60 day trial. It’s on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s Take

[00:31:48.88] spk_2:
two. 20 ntc. The 2020 non profit technology conference coming up.

[00:33:25.40] spk_1:
Um Mmm mmm. Mmm. Mmm. March 24 25 26 in Baltimore. Maryland non profit radio is going to be there on the exhibit floor. We are sponsored there by Cougar Mountain Software as well. So we’re gonna be sharing an oversized booth, a double booth. I’ll be doing tons of interviews, as I you’ve heard me say through the years. I think this is the fifth year I’ve brought this show to the non profit technology conference. I know that we the interviews are not a TTE. This stage, because we’re pre recorded today are not quite are not booked yet. But I know we’re gonna get 30 or more last year with 34 36 interviews in two and 1/2 days, all from smart, smart people who are doing sessions at the non profit technology conference, and I’m there to get picked their brains for your benefit. And then that helps them as well, because they get to be heard by 13,000 people over 13,000 instead of just the 50 or 70 or 100 that came to their. Their session at the conference so worked out quite well, very grateful to be sponsored by Cougar Mountain software there. If you’re going, come see us boots 3 16 and 3 18 is where we’re gonna be and you’ll be hearing a lot more about 20 NTC on. I’ve got a video on it at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony. Take two. Now, let’s go back to your organization’s health. My guest is Jamie Bursts, CEO of Zero. The end of prostate cancer. Um, are Jimmy? Um, so

[00:33:28.37] spk_2:
that was interesting. Like I said, I usually don’t

[00:33:30.78] spk_1:
love Guess. I know I stopped short of those kinds of introspective questions that I have to answer, but

[00:33:36.68] spk_2:
I feel like I was having sort of a Dick Cavett moment. You know, you don’t think you know Dick Cavett?

[00:33:42.35] spk_5:
Yeah, of course

[00:33:43.01] spk_2:
he’s watching

[00:33:43.98] spk_5:
him on HBO.

[00:33:45.11] spk_2:
Yeah,

[00:33:45.54] spk_5:
I think that kid going talking about baseball or history, whatever.

[00:33:49.94] spk_2:
He used to really open up. And, uh, he would talk

[00:33:53.07] spk_1:
about himself. Not as much as he would give the guests time, but

[00:33:56.95] spk_2:
he didn’t shy away

[00:33:59.29] spk_1:
from personal questions, and I always admired that him. I’ve been studying him on YouTube because some of the old stuff from the seventies is is clipped on YouTube.

[00:34:14.76] spk_2:
So I feel like I was a kind of a Dick Cavett move it. So thank you. Okay,

[00:34:15.02] spk_5:
well, hopefully we had ah revelation for you, I think. What? What happened

[00:34:19.17] spk_2:
there? Uh,

[00:35:00.80] spk_5:
you’re talking about asking those kinds of questions and probing to see if you have the values that we’re looking for. Brings it back to what I was saying earlier about vulnerability based trust because it’s not just the admitting your mistakes and weaknesses, but it’s about opening up and sharing something about yourself, Uh, that you typically wouldn’t And, um, that vulnerability based trust it’s really the glue to relationships, if you can. You sort of let your guard down and talk about, um, you know, talk, talk about you know what’s going on your head or what’s going on in your heart on your life. You typically wouldn’t share in a normal work environment that helps forge a stronger bond,

[00:35:07.33] spk_2:
absolutely within

[00:35:08.57] spk_5:
our colleagues at zero. And when

[00:35:11.04] spk_2:
we’ve got

[00:35:20.61] spk_5:
that the strong bond happening through vulnerability based trust, then it makes it really makes all the other things that happened in an organization. Like I said before the conflict stuff, um, it makes it easier to overcome.

[00:35:27.94] spk_1:
Yeah, I can absolutely, absolutely see that. See what you called vulnerability based trust. I just think of his trust. But maybe I’m thinking of it more on the friend side, You know, you’re applying it to a professional environment. But, you know, I think of the relationships I have with my friends. I mean, I

[00:35:44.09] spk_2:
open up to them, I trust them, and I become vulnerable. And they become vulnerable to me

[00:36:07.13] spk_1:
as they tell me things about their kids, their husbands, wives. That’s the, uh, again, I’m through something of it on a friendship level, and I would just call that trust. You’re You’re in a professional environment. They have to be some boundaries. Uh, so I can I see. But I like I said, I mean, I just think that is trust among friends, so I can

[00:36:12.34] spk_2:
see. And I could see how that

[00:36:17.85] spk_1:
would help you transcend other problems in the workplace.

[00:36:52.91] spk_5:
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, um, you know, having building trust is it’s really a key with loved ones. Thio building a strong relationship. So but why should it be any different with your colleagues? I think a big part of that trusted to be vulnerable and owning up to your mistakes. You know, holding up, asking for help and talking about your talking about your experiences and sort of a two degree your innermost thoughts. Because if you do this, then you feel sort of that deeper trust within the they work with every day and now

[00:36:57.88] spk_2:
s so you’re transcending. You’re transcending

[00:37:30.26] spk_1:
the average work relationship by exponentially. The average work relationship is a bunch of people who put together they don’t get the opportunity to meet each other before they’re hired. The way yours you’re describing, At least you have a better chance because because there’s so much exposure in the hiring process and I do want to get back to the hiring process to we’ll get there. That’s my job. But s o a bunch of people put together and then they have to coexist 8 10 hours a day. But

[00:37:30.46] spk_2:
they never really get to know each other. You know, they have lunches occasionally, and they have drinks. But it is There’s not really that they’re not really

[00:37:47.64] spk_1:
becoming vulnerable to each other in the environments that I’ve worked in and what I’ve consulted. I mean, I don’t see that I don’t see this level of trust among employees. It’s just a bunch of people foisted on each other, and they’re sort of treading water, doing the best they can in relationship building.

[00:37:58.73] spk_5:
Um, yeah, I’ve seen that and just about every workplace that I’ve ever been. And uh, besides uh, besides where I’m at,

[00:38:07.09] spk_2:
besides Iraq, Yeah, I

[00:38:37.93] spk_5:
agree with that way. Do our best to make time for that way encouraged. That happened during the matter, of course, of the of the work that goes on within zero. But then, you know, for example, way. Try to reinforce that on a weekly staff meeting that we have many, many staff meetings intending. Organizations are dull and they’re boring, and people will sit down and read off a bunch of numbers or a bunch of metrics. Key performance indicators and self people’s eyes bleed, and

[00:38:41.14] spk_2:
they

[00:39:05.42] spk_5:
taking notes, get hand cramps, and they would rather be anywhere else. But sitting around the conference from table listening to all that stuff. So instead, we we take time in our staff meetings to sort of build up team members a bit. It’s sort of a time Thio to come together, and sometimes we’ll go around the room with the question of Of getting to know each other more of Like what? Um, you know how many siblings do you have? And you know, where do you fall on that? That order or something that’s a little bit more difficult to answer? Like, um, something that was a big mistake that you made at work last year. How did that affect you out of that changing?

[00:39:18.68] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:39:41.88] spk_5:
that way it’s sort of open people up, Thio being able to have that to be vulnerable and courageous and a little bit in some ways, Thio speak up. And that would strengthen the bonds with for their colleagues. And then, um, it also makes them more approachable

[00:39:42.84] spk_2:
to

[00:39:44.76] spk_5:
when you can be vulnerable.

[00:39:46.04] spk_2:
I’m guessing you

[00:39:50.10] spk_1:
you have. Ah, I’m guessing you have a low turnover rate, Long employees. D’oh!

[00:40:07.31] spk_5:
Yeah, we D’oh! If you look at just the leadership team, um, see, how many years of experience, including if you could mind with the, um 40 46 years across five people. So I’ve been with your English over 18 and then I have Ah, our chief development officer is, But I’ve worked with her for 10 years.

[00:40:13.78] spk_2:
Are key

[00:40:26.81] spk_5:
of events for 10 years, are our senior vice president of marketing communications For six and 1/2 years and a new person to the team has been, uh, any personal leadership team.

[00:40:49.60] spk_1:
Okay, but those first couple you cited, you know, 10 years, eight years, those there, especially for a chief development officer. You said 10 years for the vice president of development. That’s a That’s a long that. You’re Yeah, Well, you’ve earned it. You’ve earned it. That’s a long tenure. Um, I got to get back to the more, uh, more mechanicals. Although the philosophy is really, really stimulating. Um,

[00:40:59.75] spk_2:
let’s go back to the hiring. What’s what’s the next steps?

[00:41:02.23] spk_1:
Ah, the potential candidate or candidates? A couple have met lots of people throughout the organization. How do you come together and make your decision?

[00:42:20.78] spk_5:
Um, uh, we use the humble, hungry, smart framework on how we talk about people, Not not exclusively. But of course, like many other places, we’ll talk about the skill sets that are involved. Um, we could talk about things like, Oh, this person. They really know how to get razors agile. You know, this person had great demonstrated experience at their past job or she raised, you know, x amount of dollars and Stuart of along, you know, x number of donors or whatever. Uh, but by and large, we keep coming back to the framework of what did you think of not come across as being, you know, humble? Or today you really get an understanding of, um, now that they’re gonna be an attentive listener, how do you think that there are their personality will sort of match up with others who are gonna be on this team. And, uh, and if everybody’s sort of, you know, largely in an agreement that that that that the persons home hungry, smart and has a good background to them and demonstrated experience do the job way, pull the trigger and bring them on board?

[00:42:36.43] spk_1:
Do you, as CEO, have ah, right of veto or you’re just You’re just a member of the team, the way equal to everyone else in these kinds of conversations. Decision, order.

[00:42:59.20] spk_5:
If I tell people that I don’t tell people, I don’t tell vice presidents or other team leaders across the organization who they have to hire, But I do step in and tell them who they should not hire. Like if you know, somebody candidate ends up. Um I am talking with them in a red flag. It’s raised that, uh I don’t I don’t think that they’re that they have all three values for us. Thio work

[00:43:03.37] spk_2:
with to

[00:43:05.40] spk_5:
be able to without dedicating a significant amount of time to get them there. But I think a person’s gonna be

[00:43:13.89] spk_2:
okay. Because because you

[00:43:15.81] spk_1:
do meet individual, you meet individually with every candidate, right?

[00:43:20.24] spk_5:
Yeah. Eventually.

[00:43:22.90] spk_2:
Right? Right. Okay. God, you have the

[00:43:29.84] spk_5:
key to the culture of being being able to bring in just the right people who work, you know, if it succeeds.

[00:44:03.47] spk_1:
Alright, Jamie, I’ve got to take our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s news that you need to be on top of so that you stay relevant, including they are former journalist at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So they understand the work that you are doing and the community you’re working in, they are at turn hyphen to dot ceo, and I want

[00:44:03.95] spk_2:
to say that the live love

[00:44:04.91] spk_1:
um We’re pre recorded today as I mentioned, so I don’t can’t shut you out by city and state, as I would like to, but, uh,

[00:44:11.75] spk_2:
you know,

[00:44:12.04] spk_1:
you are If you’re listening to the live stream Friday one

[00:44:16.85] spk_2:
o’clock Eastern time, then the love goes out

[00:45:12.11] spk_1:
to you Live. Love, live. Listen, love. Thank you. I’m grateful that you are listening to our live stream and the podcast Pleasantries toe are over 13,000 listeners. However, we fit into your life of your binging at the end of the month. Or if you’re more consistent pleasantries to the podcast audience, I’m grateful that you are with us as well. Thank you so much. We got butt loads more time for your organization’s health, and Jamie burst burst by the way you spelled b e a r s e So looks like Hearst, but with a B. So if you’re looking for him on Twitter, it’s at Jamie Bursts, which is hearse with a B. Um, we were Sometimes I take these brakes and messes me up way. We’re still talking about the hiring, whether you get a veto or no. Okay, so, um, they’re hiring. Process anything more you want to add about that the hiring before we before we move on,

[00:45:14.96] spk_5:
I think we covered it.

[00:45:15.90] spk_2:
Okay, in sufficient detail for people to get get a flavour

[00:45:23.02] spk_1:
of what it’s how this how this works, Um, you know, sort of mechanically and and in the details.

[00:45:27.42] spk_2:
What about evaluation?

[00:45:28.55] spk_1:
You already said You don’t have your end evaluations or maybe you do. But I guess they take on West less weight because there’s there’s there’s routine feedback. Is there a formal evaluation process? How does that work?

[00:46:30.06] spk_5:
Another reason. A formal evaluation process, because we just believe in in AA real time feedback, Asai said. Before it’s, uh, feedback largely comes in, uh, you know, the form of ah, the framework of, ah, being humble, hungry, smart of you asking, getting curious and asking questions of Okay, What? How you manage this project or what you communicated Thio. You know, this person or this donor? Um, I didn’t see that as being very humble. Tell me about that. And, um, you know, here’s here’s how, uh, like, shared in away from my own experiences of where maybe I wasn’t humble and, um, how how I would have handled it differently and, uh, try to give them some coaching and mentoring so they do it different next time around.

[00:46:32.64] spk_1:
Do you meet with every staff member individually?

[00:46:39.60] spk_5:
Uh, Thio give feedback like

[00:46:41.96] spk_2:
that? Yeah,

[00:47:07.76] spk_5:
sometimes. But I’m not always the one in there. Um uh, Scott, everybody on the our leadership team also, you know, living values and being able to coach and mentor others across the organization that, you know, they’re they’re responsible for the staff that were on their teams, but you were necessary. I’m I’m I’m always willing to step in and help catch them alone.

[00:47:14.76] spk_2:
Okay? Okay. Um, I want to go back to high freedom. Does that

[00:47:32.23] spk_1:
include in dealing with the men and the families that you’re working with? Like in terms of problem solving? If there’s a difficulty with the organization or something to do, our staff members empowered to take action or you know, or is it is it? I think I know the answer, but I want to ask it this way. Or is it more bureaucratic? You know the way Ah, typical organization would have to go through Ah, making an exception.

[00:48:35.95] spk_5:
Uh, no. Uh, it also know a centrist bureaucratic It, um it applies to their work out in the field and working with patients and families who have been impacted by this. Um, it goes thio being able to be, um, highly aligned, but sort of but highly aligned but being empowered to take independent action when were highly aligned and understand. Um, the values are highly aligned and understanding what’s most important right now for the organization or what our goals are and every different situation than you have the behind over freedom in order to be able to act autonomously on behalf of the organization. Thio, get the job done. Don’t believe in micro managing by any stretch of the imagination?

[00:48:40.10] spk_1:
No,

[00:50:20.34] spk_5:
it does to our managing others within the organization. Um, I was try to coach them. Uh, sometimes they get you end up in a way that they have a certain vision for their team. Are they have a certain way that they wanna see something that we’re working on get executed. But I will tell them that you know, if you can get people 80% of the way there on executing on your vision, and that’s a massive win That’s huge. Went because they bought in to what your what your vision is, how you’re telling it to them, their understanding, how you’re how you’re communicating to them, and that’s terrific. But if you try to push beyond trying to get from 80% of them, executing on your vision to 100% that really starts to take on a life of micromanaging, exhausting work for you. And eventually that staff member of that team, team members is gonna get resentful and not trusted that they can go out. And, you know, we make their own decisions that we try to, like, pull it way back. Good, solid clarity of like what the goals are, how we be good goals on. You know what the mission is, how he behaves, what’s most important right now. What are our most important goals in any given time frame? If we have good clarity around that sort of step back and let people, um can’t manage themselves and strive to tea, leaves the mission and hit our goals without being micromanaged, that’s Ah, that’s another element of hi freedom.

[00:50:34.06] spk_1:
Interesting. Interesting to hear you see that marginal 20% as being counterproductive in the Marshall. 20% meeting expectations. You’re saying 80% instead of 100 becomes counter could become counterproductive.

[00:50:37.60] spk_5:
Yeah, you’re,

[00:50:38.19] spk_2:
uh

[00:50:39.08] spk_5:
you know, a company that’s making widgets. You’re looking at spreadsheets and things like that of like, Okay, our best radio return is like when we’re selling this many witches. But if we sell like too many, then our return on investment starts to drop off their He’s got diminishing returns. It’s what they call it and

[00:50:54.91] spk_2:
that you’re

[00:50:55.46] spk_5:
in a company that’s making widgets. So yeah, I would say that that’s, um that’s sort of the cut off for us. Uh, you know, we’re talking about organizational health

[00:51:05.65] spk_2:
here.

[00:51:13.42] spk_5:
You’re trying to really get them thio be 100% for for your vision than just gonna set you up for failure Way.

[00:51:19.16] spk_1:
Just have, like, four minutes or so left.

[00:51:21.21] spk_2:
Let’s let’s talk a little about your virtual employees. What do you

[00:51:25.18] spk_1:
do? Dio ensure that the’s er that HHS is instilled in nam and that they’re getting the feedback that everyone who’s ah on site is getting on and make them feel part of the team. What do you do for the virtual folks?

[00:52:33.10] spk_5:
Sure. Well, one is that we have, ah, weekly staff meeting that everybody gets on video so we all can see each other and communicate with each other while we’re doing some team building through that. A zay were talking earlier that one of the things that we do in staff meeting is it’s such a small thing, but it’s so empowering. So we take not even five minutes of staff meeting. We do something that’s called hashtag. You’re proud and through that, every every staff meeting that we have, there’s three people on staff. Go and then the next week, another three people will go, But each person calls out somebody else across the organization for living our values until a story about you know why they think that person is being humble home. We’re smart and it’s really empowering, and it draws people in no matter you know where they are. You know, whether their offices in yeah, Sacramento or where I am in Boston and

[00:52:34.88] spk_2:
we’re

[00:53:46.06] spk_5:
all points in between. A couple of other things that we do is there’s a tool that’s out there now. That sort of market is for internal communication is a slack, and it sort of Ah, people haven’t heard about it. It sort of a cross between Google chat Facebook A little bit for no internal communications divided up by channel. And you got to put you in certain little fun things in there. Like you get these, uh, a little energies and thumbs up smiley faces for different messages that you put in a different channels that better there. So we make it sort of, um, interactive in that way. Uh, that’s just happens to be, you know, where the world going with social media. So we kind of embrace that, and that helped draw people together. And the byproduct is also it takes all of this internal communication off emails focus externally, focus your email externally without it getting all clocked up with all of these internal messages that people get TC on. Yeah, at nauseam. So that’s just one of the tools in Red Show way. Help build that strong team cohesion. No matter where people are across the organization. And, uh, a few others. But I know that we’re pressed for time, but you know what? One other.

[00:53:51.08] spk_2:
Yeah, go ahead. One other thing that

[00:53:52.28] spk_5:
I would say is that

[00:53:53.17] spk_2:
my door is

[00:54:03.09] spk_5:
always open. I held, um, office hours every day for anybody that wants the common and chat things out of how they can be more feel more connected to others in the

[00:54:17.04] spk_1:
That’s a great That’s a great tactic. Office hours every day. Open office, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. We could still have a couple

[00:54:25.94] spk_2:
minutes, right? Yes. Get Yeah, we have a couple minutes left. Um, let’s, uh you mentioned

[00:54:27.79] spk_1:
before over communication did we did really talk about that. And we just didn’t label what we were talking about in the at the time over communicating.

[00:54:36.36] spk_5:
Sure. We could talk about that. It’s It’s, um it’s critical. Um, I also got, um, not from

[00:54:44.12] spk_1:
so we didn’t We didn’t do that. Okay, let’s we got about two minutes. You go ahead.

[00:56:34.43] spk_5:
Sure. That also comes from the the advantage by Patrick Ngoni and actually didn’t, uh, people sometimes don’t hear your message until they hear it for the seventh time. And, um, I don’t think I really realized that until the seven time that I read that book. Yeah. What it means is that sometimes leaders are or the chief reminding officer and reminding people about, um of of the values of reminding people about the mission to reminding people what’s most important right now. So t over communicate that in different ways, whether that’s putting it a male or a black message or by phone or video, face to face or by video they’re having heard the same message in multiple platforms helps it to sink in in a way that people really understand it. Um, I also said before about you know, that commitment of asking, clarifying questions like, Okay, what I hear you saying is this is that what I’m hearing and that gives people a chance to clarify it and get what’s being said straightened out? And we also have a role, a swell, that John silence dissent, meaning, you know, for having for having a meeting and talking about all these things on. I’ll say like, Okay, we good to move on. And, um, not everybody speaks up and says Yes, yeah, I’m good, Yeah, no concerns for me. Um, then we treat it like descent because that way it allows people to commit thio a decision that’s being made and it sort of invites them like Okay, you know, if you’re not speaking up. Done. You know what, Um, what’s on your mind with you bothering you?

[00:56:41.13] spk_1:
What’s holding you back? Okay, Silences, descent. All right, All right. Jamie Burst. We gotta leave it there. I really enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:56:45.98] spk_5:
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:56:58.20] spk_1:
My pleasure. Jamie Bursts, CEO of zero. The end of prostate cancer. Zero is at zero cancer dot or GE and he’s at Jamie Bursts. There’s excellent. Thank you. Zero proud hashtags are proud. Uh, next week, build your grantmakers relationships, which is the panel that I hosted back when there was a foundation center. Of course, now they’re merged with guidestar. But when there was the foundation center, I hosted a panel there, and we’ll hear it next week. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:57:26.47] spk_2:
Bye, Cougar Mountain Software

[00:57:45.33] spk_1:
Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant mountain for a free 60 day trial. And by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Lee Woods is the line producer.

[00:58:28.78] spk_4:
There’s the music shows. Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. You With Me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

Special Episode: Coronavirus & Nonprofits

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Lisa Brauner: Coronavirus & Nonprofits
My guest for this special, short episode is attorney Lisa Brauner. We cover the laws that govern your organization and the policies you may need to enact. Staying level-headed, how do you handle travel, your workplaces, parent employees, freaked out employees, and keep all your stakeholders safe? Lisa is a partner at Perlman+Perlman law firm in New York City.

 

 

 

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[00:01:55.44] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. This is a special short episode of non profit radio Corona virus and nonprofits. My guest is attorney Lisa Bronner. We cover the laws that govern your organization and the policies you may need to enact staying level headed. How do you handle travel your workplaces? Parent employees freaked out employees and keep all your stakeholders safe. Lisa is a partner at Permanent Perlman Law Firm in New York City, were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com My Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. It’s a pleasure to welcome back to the Cheryl Lisa Brauner. She’s an attorney and partner at permanent Perlman Law Firm in New York City. From dedicated to working with nonprofits, her practice focuses on employment law, advising and representing employers in workplace law related matters. She has extensive experience preparing employee handbooks and policies. The firm is at Perlman and perlman dot com and at tax exempt lawyer Lisa, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:57.24] spk_5:
Thanks, tony. I’m delighted to be here.

[00:02:25.31] spk_2:
Thank you. Um, and we’re talking about a special topic, which it’s like the elephant in the room that needs no introduction. We all know Corona virus is running all over the globe. Um, just for context. Yesterday, the World Health Organization declared it a pandemic. So we want to talk about what nonprofits need to keep in mind. Let me just start with what? What advice are you giving clients is, you know, broadly

[00:04:37.70] spk_5:
so broadly? Uh, well, first of all, the situation as we’re hearing is changing on a daily basis. So even advice I gave a few days ago, maybe changing, as as the situation develops in terms of what in terms of what non profits should be doing in their workplace, I think one of the really key things is that because things were changing so rapidly that nonprofits are speaking on a daily basis with their employees about whatever information the nonprofits may have, and also providing resource is to them. So one of the first things that I and telling non profits is, have both a written communication plan with your employees. And if the employees are all in one location, if it’s a smaller non profit where they can ah, you know, have a a phone conversation or in some way speak with them about what the plan is for the workplace. So definitely they should be thinking about having a written communication to their employees that they should be having written communications to their managers. That may be a separate communication on how managers are supposed to, uh, effectively communicate what needs to happen and keep everybody Come on. DDE not panicking about the situation. I think employees want to know in this time of uncertainty what they can expect in terms of what their work is gonna look like going forward, whether they can be working remotely, whether they should be working remotely. So having a written communication plan is a good first step for nonprofits communicating to their employees. What information do we have? Um, how is this gonna affect the workplace? Ah, kind of is a broad general matter. Uh, non plucked profits are providing to their employees information about what the employer is doing, too sanitized the workplace. What are the proper hygiene things that employees should be doing? Like you know, the things that we’re getting from the CDC and information that we’re getting from state and local public health agencies about how to stay safe covering your off Employers are posting posters in the workplace, reminding and reminding employees about about hygiene about, uh, you know,

[00:05:02.76] spk_2:
for further good

[00:06:30.29] spk_5:
cough etiquette if they feel sick to stay home of those kinds of things. So preparing written communications to their employees, letting their employees no regularly. What’s happening if there’s a plan for remote work, what that’s gonna look like? Employers need to be implementing infectious infectious plans like, How are we gonna address this in our office? How are we gonna ensure that we know who’s coming to the office in terms of, you know, visitors? How are we ensuring that what the policies were putting in place to ensure that if somebody is sick they are staying home? They’re not coming into the workplace. So putting essentially putting policies and plans in place and communicating them two employees putting policies and nice about communicable diseases and how employees, if they’re you know what they should be doing in terms of they are experiencing symptoms of this novel Corona virus or, if they’ve been exposed, dealing with having policies in place for employees who may have returned from Travel Thio countries where there’s been a widespread outbreak or a community spread and things like that. So most importantly, the communications to the employees about what the plans are for controlling and containing infection on how work is going to be handled. What

[00:06:31.02] spk_2:
about communications to other stakeholders? Like I’m thinking of the board but actually even put a head of the board before the board, the people that were serving If it’s, ah, service oriented, program oriented non profit, what about keeping in touch with those folks?

[00:07:00.38] spk_5:
That’s important, too, and you know, it’s It’s a thing about communication because there’s so much uncertainty. It’s really regular communication as well as two. Here’s what we know here, the precautions that we’re taking

[00:07:02.28] spk_2:
it’s reassuring. It’s reassuring to hear from the organizations that are important to you in your life.

[00:07:09.29] spk_5:
Exactly. You know that we’re following this, that we’re on top of this, that you have any questions um, here’s what we know. So for here, the sources that we’re looking at, the CDC

[00:07:22.54] spk_0:
and the and and

[00:07:32.54] spk_5:
OSHA and, uh, the World Health Organization, the CDC is usually CDC, and also state and local public health agencies are often are often good. Resource is CDC

[00:07:44.16] spk_2:
website is really is broken down very well. It’s got different different types of industries. It’s got for for people, for offices. No, it’s it’s very well organized.

[00:07:59.51] spk_5:
Yeah, they have. They have guidance for different for different categories for schools, for universities, for interim guidance, for business s O. They’re all different categories that they try Thio address. And also there are state and local agencies,

[00:08:06.27] spk_2:
your state health, state health agencies

[00:08:26.44] spk_5:
and they provide information to so in terms of, you know, communicating with stakeholders. It’s something that can be communicated that, you know, we’re on top of this. Here’s what we know here the things that we’re putting in place to make sure that our that our stakeholders are are kept in the loop about what’s happening

[00:08:30.45] spk_0:
and then the you know,

[00:08:32.26] spk_5:
the changes that that we’re making. And I think even at the local level like New York City, for instance, and other municipalities, they may have ways for people locally to stay in touch with them. Like, for instance, in New York City. If you text a certain number, you can get you get updates on whatever it is the city’s putting out there about about the you know about the latest spread, about certain safety measures that should be taken, certain hygiene measures and things like that. So I think it’s important that nonprofits are communicating with their stakeholders, including airport members, and using up please

[00:09:08.44] spk_2:
and using the resource is that you’ve got you ticked off. A whole bunch of different resource is C. D. C from the world, the country and, you know, state and local. Um, do we have to be concerned about specific laws that that we need to stay on the right side of?

[00:10:27.93] spk_5:
Yeah. And employers need to be aware of whether federal laws that deal with disability ah, the Americans with Disabilities Act that applies to employers of 15 or more employees and states and municipalities also have their own anti discrimination laws relating to disability. So those air some things to be careful of in terms of what kind of enquiries can we make about employees? There’s also, you know, what, the At the outset of this, there were concerns about, um that there might be some stigmas or or prejudice towards towards Asian employees because of the of the origin of the virus coming from China. On that, managers really needed to be alert thio and aware of and responsive to, um, any type of any types of discriminatory comments or disparaging comments about Asians or about others that could be that could be directed to somebody because of their race or national Arjuna door or their ethnicity. You

[00:10:33.11] spk_2:
gotta you gotta nip that quickly, right? Like supposed There’s someone who’s, um, who’s Chinese and they come into work wearing a mask all of a sudden,

[00:10:52.64] spk_5:
right? Exactly. So also understanding cultural differences and managers communicating that as well, so that to prevent, you know, to prevent an employee from feeling stigmatized or ostracized because of their race or national origin or ethnicity. So that so those are some of the other issues that have been coming up actually in the workplace to be alert Thio and for those are some of the laws.

[00:11:23.75] spk_2:
What about, um I’m thinking of a parent employees. Their child’s school is closed and they need all kinds of work flexibility that they didn’t need yesterday because their kids are home now. How flexible Doesn’t employer need to be around the work scheduling?

[00:12:55.94] spk_5:
Well, I mean, I think that be public health agencies or generally our public health agencies air generally recommending that employers try to be flexible in in the policies that they have, that they apply it in a uniform way but that, you know, they should be communicating if they have. If it’s a different issue, I guess, than a paid sick leave policy, but that they should be, ah, with respect to paid sick leave if somebody sick that employers should be communicating to their employees. We have these policies paid sick leave or other policies that may be relevant, I think, to answer your question directly about that about this issue, uh, I’m seeing more and more employers who are implementing remote work policies, even if on a temporary basis, so that, first of all to help contain, spread and prevent it for safety reasons. Ah, but you do have the logistical. You do have logistical issues with, ah, with schools closing. And I think it’s really just gonna be on a case by case basis in terms of how employers how employers are going to deal with that and also different. Different municipalities also may have particular laws that deal with caregivers believe there’s our municipalities in California, for instance, where caregiving there is a legal obligation to reasonably accommodate a caregiver. So there may actually be in certain jurisdictions lost that address caregiving directly on require accommodation and why, While that may not be the case in most jurisdictions, it may be in some. And so employers need to be non profits have to be aware of where their employees were working and what laws may governed those types of situations and have and have some flexibility where they can with respect to allowing remote working. Uh, at this time way, all

[00:14:03.26] spk_2:
gotta be reasonable, right? It transcends whatthe law requires. I mean, this is Ah, this is extraordinary. So, you know, to the extent it’s possible t be flexible. I mean, shouldn’t shouldn’t you try to be, you know, without without breaking the bank or anything. But if someone’s work lens that lends itself to being done remotely, you know, Let’s try to figure out a way to facilitate that.

[00:15:01.51] spk_5:
I think I think employers are. I’m seeing more and more of it and and reviewing more and more remote work policies, particularly at this at this time, with everything that’s going on for safety and health reasons. Aside from the caregiving, the safety and health reasons. And Andy and the health agencies are encouraging that everywhere we hear that the health agencies air saying, if your employees can work remotely, let them work remotely. If you can stagger the time that your employees start to reduce, you know, to reduce their traveling at rush hour. Do that. Uh uh. So s so different, so different kinds of things. So they’re encouraging different types of different types of things. Cross train your employees so that if somebody is out sick or somebody can’t get to work, you have You’ve got someone else to cover. I’ve

[00:15:25.51] spk_2:
also heard um, uh, organization that was having people bring their work laptops home and try them out before, before we before the organization needs to say people start working from home or before the city. This was in New York or before the city maybe shuts down public transportation or something drastic like that. So figured out now how to get your tech to work from home so that it doesn’t become a crisis when you can’t get you can’t get help from the office.

[00:17:57.84] spk_5:
Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I’m really I’m advising clients on about a lot is plan. Now, do your pre planning from your written communications to your employees to What are we going to do if somebody who you know who does have Cove in 19 comes into the workplace? Make your plans. Now, make your plans now also, what you said about the computers, even if there, even if you don’t yet have a remote situation plan now and figure out not just that, you’re gonna be sending people home with computers. But what are you going to do to ensure that your data is secure? I mean, the that your data is secure as you. All of your work now is transferred to laptops. Do you have data security and data data protection measures in place to prevent that? If you’re gonna have far more people now working remotely as opposed to in the office. Have you locked down those computers? Have you ensured that they’re not gonna be that they can’t be hacked if you have, you know, confidential your confidential information. Obviously, uh, there’s a greater chance of that of that information getting exposed or disclosed, even inadvertently. If you have lots of people out with computers as opposed to have in your office. So it’s there has to be some pre planning on how we’re gonna set this up rather than just sending people off with the computers. What data security measures do we have in place? What time keeping measures do we have in place? Right, there also questions you asked about what laws? Certain employees, non employees that are that are not exempt from the overtime pay laws. They have to track the hours that they worked. So if you have people working remotely, do you have a system in place where you’re gonna be able to track those those employees work hours? It’s important that you’ve you’ve developed that system that you’ve thought about. How does this remote work and I’m gonna work? Do we? Are we set up for videoconferencing? How Are we gonna have these? How are we gonna have the conferences that we ordinarily has, as in person meetings? Um, there are also employers are talking about not just remote work. But what are we gonna do about travel? Should we be limiting travel and all of the public health agencies air recommending that employers are limiting non essential travel for work on?

[00:18:14.52] spk_2:
All right, so So, uh, yes for work. Are you allowed to go so far as to say in your office that it would be so much better if you didn’t travel for personal reasons, like, you know, it’s better to stay home? Me. So can you encourage people to not travel at all, including for their own personal travel? Can you say that in office?

[00:19:37.52] spk_5:
So there are there certain laws insurance, certain jurisdictions like New York, for instance, where you can’t discriminate against individuals, employees for lawful recreational activity treatment less favorably. But I don’t see that there’s a reason why, in view of this certain of the, you know, the current pandemic that employers couldn’t say to employees in view of everything that we’re hearing and the restrictions on travel from Europe and who knows where else things will be locked down? Um, we discourage. We discourage travel at this time. It’s obviously up to you in terms of what travel. You take personal travel, and but it’s kind of it’s kind of a hard thing to That’s kind of a hard thing to control, because we we have We have this virus spreading throughout the United States on. We don’t know the scope of it right now, so we don’t really know all of the places that are infected or even the extent or scope. Ah, that different places are, are, are are infected so we don’t have enough tests now to even wrote test to test everyone who should be tested. So so that’s a difficult thing to do. But people will hopefully use their common sense about travel in view of whatever news that we’re hearing on a daily basis. You know, people are now going to fewer events because of just changes, things that are happening. We all know if events that we were gonna attend that have now been canceled, so things were kind of changing rapidly on a daily basis, and so there may be, you know, individual employees may decide that they’re not going to

[00:20:57.41] spk_2:
may decide on their own. And and that the change of circumstance, um, is another reason for for being open and communicating. And you know what you opened with and and doing it frequently because the situation does change and and even, you know, even if there’s not a change from day to day, it’s just reassure. Like I said, it’s just reassuring that all the all the, uh, constituents, whatever you call them, all the all the year agencies and offices in your network that are important to you are staying in touch with you again. I know I said it earlier, but it’s just it’s just reassuring. I mean, let’s not lose our humanity in all this. It’s good to be communicating about. You know, when there’s something bad happens, you know, it’s it’s good to be talking about it and not ignoring it, because that’s, you know, you become trivial and irrelevant. I just Let’s not use our lose our humanity around all this.

[00:21:09.91] spk_5:
I agree with you. I think it’s I think it’s so important that we are regularly in contact with employees and stakeholders to to reassure and to let them know that we’re thinking about them and that we will keep them apprised of any developments we learn about that we think could could impact them or service

[00:21:22.26] spk_7:
is to them or,

[00:21:24.04] spk_5:
uh, for employees the way in which they’re working, anything that we feel could impact them or be important so that with respect, what’s happening? What if it

[00:21:58.44] spk_2:
comes down to, you know, this is gonna be evolving it. We know it’s going to get much worse in the US than it is right now. We’re recording on Thursday, March 12th. It’s gonna get much worse before it gets any better. What about someone just, I don’t know, sort of freaks out in the office and says, I’m not coming to work anymore. I can’t do this anymore, You know, Leaving my home scares the shit out of me. I can’t I can’t get out. What? What? What do you What do you say to somebody like that who was just freaking out? Whether it’s with their home or their in the office, and they say they’re not coming in again or if somebody just gets really worked up in panic,

[00:23:19.48] spk_5:
I think it’s I mean, I think it’s going to depend on a case by case basis. And I say that because the reasonableness of whatever their fear is may depend on actually what is actually happening around them. So, for instance, that they’re in a place that’s a containment area like New Rochelle. Ah, and they have certain fears about leaving their house or something like that. Those fears may be greater than if they’re in a place where there isn’t such widespread. Ah ah, widespread community spread. One say so, Um, I mean, e. I think you just have to deal with the situation on it on a case by case basis, and you, like I said before, if there’s a way for not every position is gonna be amenable to remote or but if there is a way where an employer can work with someone whose position is amenable to remote work and the person is anxious about about working outside their home, then they I would recommend that they try to find a solution where the person can work remotely, if that’s a possibility, and I think also just the issue again of reassurance just continuing to keep employees aware of what information, what information

[00:23:37.21] spk_0:
be, uh, the

[00:23:52.34] spk_5:
employer has about any what they’re getting from the CDC and state and local authorities about the safety of coming to work. You know, the pope authorities haven’t said that it’s unsafe to come to work. It’s entered, In other words, that were following the guidance. Employers are following the guidance that’s being given to us by the public health authorities in our locality, in our locality, specifically because what I tell somebody in New York City or someone in Los Angeles may be different than I tell someone or in Washington state than what I what? What an employer tells someone who was in a place that has not been hit yet by the by the virus.

[00:24:59.54] spk_2:
You mentioned some That’s interesting. What about, um, people whose work does not lend itself? Thio Remote work. I’m supposed there’s they’re on site nurse’s aides or nurses or social workers. They go to people’s homes, and that’s how they that’s. That’s what I get paid for. Their work does not lend itself to being remote, um, or even. But let’s you know, maybe that’s not such a good example, cause those air their health care workers so they would have the peopie the personal protective equipment. So that’s not a good example. All right, so I stuck with a mediocre host. I’m sorry. Um, think of an example that you

[00:25:01.24] spk_5:
could have somebody work. Yeah. Really? Yeah.

[00:25:15.54] spk_2:
Their work just doesn’t lend itself. It has to be done in an office. Do they have to be paid? If if the let’s say that the locality does say, you know offices were closed in this town, do they need to still be paid? How does that work?

[00:26:10.38] spk_5:
So how it works if someone is non exempt from overtime pay laws meaning they’re entitled to overtime pay when they work more than 40 hours in a work week, they’re only entitled to be paid when they for the hours they actually work. So in answer to your question, if they’re not working, they’re not getting paid for exempt employees. If they work any portion of a work week, then they have to be paid for that week. But if they’re not working, you know, so that’s another. That’s another situation. But I think what’s gonna happen is or what is happening is, uh, employers. Employees will either use paid leave if they have it. You’re some employers say we’re gonna pay you anyway because of the situation of what’s happening. So it’s just gonna depend on the employer, But legally, you know, with a nonexempt employees, if they’re not, they’re not working.

[00:26:14.12] spk_0:
Then they’re not than they. There’s not

[00:26:16.72] spk_5:
a requirement for them to be paid. They get paid for the hours that they were

[00:27:40.74] spk_2:
okay, and it comes back to let’s not lose our humanity. Let’s you know, I potentially I see a lot of fundraising around this. Um, not not immediately, but sort of after the after effects of it. Um, for nonprofits, you know, I’m I’m thinking of one organization. Ah, well, in 10. And I know they’re not gonna mind being mentioned. They just canceled a conference, which is gonna cost them a lot of money in cancellation fees with the venues with hotels and all kind of, you know, I foreseen I don’t want I’m hesitant to say, fundraising opportunities, fundraising needs for for nonprofits to fill the void. And part of it may very well be because they compensated employees that maybe they didn’t need to legally compensate. Or maybe they could put them on 50% pay for the weeks that they that they ran out of PTO or didn’t never had enough to start with. You know, they did something. They made grants off some type Thio, thio, nonexempt employees, um, to help them, and and they may end up having to fundraise toe to make that up. But they kept their humanity. I mean, they did what was right for employers. I mean, for employees, for their staff. Um, I think I think we’re gonna see some of that when this. When? When the worst of this is over.

[00:28:27.25] spk_5:
It’s a good point for for organizations that that have made decisions too close or that or have to close, uh, and want to, you know, I want to still do right by their employees. I think I think that’s a good point. And I think we are seeing I’m seeing as well you know, organisations dealing with the situation of we you know, we need to cancel into that. We need to host an event because ah, because we can’t do it now or people aren’t gonna come. The people who we want to come have been told that can’t go toe large gatherings or we can have, Um we’re just We can’t do it at this time. So So you know, So I’m seeing I’m seeing a lot of that as well that that is a real issue for nonprofits.

[00:29:30.34] spk_2:
And I think people are gonna recognize that the need to when we get to that stage of fundraising toe meet these extraordinary expenses wherever they might be, whether their conference cancellation fees or grants toe employees that didn’t have PTO. Um, I think people are gonna hear that need. Um I don’t think I’m naive. I I just haven’t optimism that people in the U. S. Will will come through for the organizations that are that are important to them that did the right thing and and did cancel meetings, conferences or or compromise themselves in some other ways to meet the health crisis. I think donors will recognize that need and will step up to it. When when we get to that stage, which we’re not, we’re not near, but I think it’s coming. Um, Lisa, we still got a couple minutes left. What else? Anything. You want to leave people with that we haven’t even talked about.

[00:30:37.84] spk_5:
Well, I mean, I think one of the things that around this also is that they should really should be thinking about what are their plans that they’re putting in place? What are the policies that they’re putting in place? How are they going to communicate with their employees about what’s happening and and kind of keep the employees abreast of the changes that are happening? What are they gonna do with their contracts going forward into Prince of making sure that they’re protected if they did have to cancel the event, making sure that the force majeure and their contracts which which allows cancellation, is going to protect them in the event something like this, uh, we’re toe happen again to be thinking about their contracts to be thinking about remote work agreements that they need with employees and really having plans in place to be prepared. I mean, we think of also all of these universities and schools that are closing and do they have plans for remote education? There has to be, I would just say to employers, Do you make preplanned, make plans on right up your plans and communicate some two employees on what you’re gonna do in this emergency and think about emergencies going forward. And what aspects of your organ what aspects of your organization and the running of your organization. Could this impact your contracts? You’re you’re the staff that you need the supplies that you need to get. Ah, and all of those things. And, uh,

[00:31:07.77] spk_2:
and, you know, for this emergency, it’s not too late. I mean, we still have time to put these plans in place. Okay?

[00:31:14.33] spk_5:
Exactly. Maybe maybe

[00:31:20.79] spk_2:
a little remedial A rushed, Um, it may not be the best. It may not serve you 10 years from now, but you know, you’ll have that time to figure it out after this crisis. But it’s again. It’s Thursday, March 12th. There still is time to be rational and plan and put these things in place that you’re talking about. There’s still time.

[00:32:22.94] spk_5:
Absolutely. And I think so. I would say I would say, Tom, yes, they come and get on it and start planning. Make sure that you’re doing these plans and that you are and also the employers air staying alert to what the public health agencies air saying on dhe to communicate that to employees. So, absolutely. As you know, somebody had said, uh, keep calm and wash your hands and and and and make your plans. It’s not too late for employers to be planning. And I think that’s what they need to be focused on making these written communication plans to their employees, reassuring their employees. I’m keeping them employees Ah aware of whatever the latest developments are with the public health agencies at the federal, state and local levels.

[00:32:30.84] spk_2:
It’s not too late, but the time is here.

[00:32:33.84] spk_5:
The time is now. If they haven’t done,

[00:32:49.94] spk_2:
isn’t this thing isn’t going away? So it’s not too late, But the time is now get going exactly at least a brother. We’re gonna leave it there. Thanks so much. At least there’s an attorney and partner at Perlman and Perlman Law Firm. You’ll find the firm at Perlman and perlman dot com. It’s p e. R l permanent perlman dot com and at tax exempt lawyer Lisa. Thanks so much for doing this on the fly. And ah, well done. Thanks so much.

[00:33:04.04] spk_5:
You’re welcome. Tony. Take care and be with

[00:33:47.74] spk_2:
you. Our creative producer is clear Meyerhoff sama. Liebowitz is the line producer. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this guy’s this music you may not be hearing, but you might be. I’m not sure whether we’re gonna get music in the post production, but anyway, our routine music that you almost always here is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn. Many thanks to Sam and Susan and Mark for helping me get this special episode out to you in short order My thanks again to Lisa Brauner and prominent Perlman for doing this on the fly You with me next to me next time for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio & #20NTC

Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio would have been at the 2020 Nonprofit Technology Conference this month. I’m proud and grateful that we would have been sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software, accounting software made for nonprofits. Sadly, NTEN made the excruciating decision to cancel 20NTC due to the Coronavirus pandemic. I’m no less grateful to Cougar Mountain. What’s with that guy’s hair?

Nonprofit Radio for March 13, 2020: Sexual Harassment In Nonprofits

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Lisa Brauner: Sexual Harassment In Nonprofits
It’s everywhere. Our community is no exception. In this week when the Harvey Weinstein sentencing is scheduled, we return to the perspective from late October 2017, when the allegations against him had just gone public. Attorney Lisa Brauner provides legal perspective for women and organizations. She’s a partner at Perlman+Perlman in New York City. (Originally aired October 27, 2017)

 

 

 

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[00:00:14.44] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio

[00:01:04.16] spk_3:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of Sarko Sisto sis, if you infected me with the idea that you missed today’s show. Sexual harassment in nonprofits it’s everywhere. Our community is no exception in this week when the Harvey Weinstein sentencing is scheduled. We returned to the perspective from late October 2017 when the allegations against him had just gone. Public attorney Lisa Bronner provides legal perspective for women and organizations. She’s a partner at Perlman and Pearlman in New York City. In this originally aired October 27th 2017 tony Stick to 20 NTC were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But Kudo Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and, by turn, to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO here. Is this a broader and sexual harassment in nonprofits?

[00:03:46.96] spk_4:
Sexual harassment, The most recent revelations and national attention started with producer Harvey Weinstein, then the California State Legislature, where 115 legislators, staffers and lobbyists signed an open letter of complaint. The next I saw was screenwriter and director James Toback, who has over 300 women accusing him. I know one. Last October, the Access Hollywood tape embarrassed candidate Donald Trump. About two years ago, many women came out against Bill Cosby. Bring it back to this week. A celebrity chef John Besh and a celebrity journalist, Mark Halperin, are incriminated. Both resigned their positions. It’s everywhere. I think we need to talk about this in nonprofits. The guardian dot com has a piece dated 10 2017 titled, He was a senior manager in a global charity. I was 18 when he assaulted me here in the U. S. A Los Angeles Times article is USC Fundraising executive leaves post amid sexual harassment investigation. That’s from 10 11 17. His name is David Carrera. I’d like your stories and comments to be part of our conversation today. You can call the studio at 8774 Aito for 120877 for a tow for 120 or treat us with the hashtag non profit radio hashtag non profit radio were also on Facebook live on the tony-martignetti non profit radio page. Working on getting that up right now. Let’s bring in Lisa Bronner, my guest for the hour. She’s an attorney and partner at prominent Perlman Law firm in New York City. Her focus is employment law advising and representing employers in workplace law related matters. But she also has advice for employees, volunteers and board members. The firm is at Perlman and perlman dot com. It’s p r l P R L Their brothers spelled same way. Could be different. One within you won with the aid, but it’s not p e r l

[00:03:51.05] spk_2:
and they’re at tax exempt lawyer Lisa brother. Welcome.

[00:03:52.43] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks for coming to the studio. I’m delighted to be here, tony.

[00:04:10.14] spk_4:
Thank you very much. Um, what What? What’s your sense of the prevalence of sexual harassment in non profit? So matter no necessarily numbers, but, uh, as somebody practicing in the in the area. What? What, uh, what’s your feel for this?

[00:04:36.60] spk_0:
I think the issue effects nonprofits justice, it effects for profits. The issue of sexual harassment is an issue dealing with an abuse of power. So when you have ah, you have situations of power dynamic. There are potentially situations where sexual harassment may arise.

[00:04:39.65] spk_4:
Yeah, it’s exploitation of power in a relationship, right? Is unequal power in the relationship?

[00:05:21.73] spk_0:
Yeah. There can be co worker. There can be there can be co worker. Ah, sexual harassment. There can be conduct that’s unwelcome. But what? The things that you were describing Our situations where there is a power dynamic and an abuse of power and justice for profit organizations may not have policies addressing the issue. Non profits as well may have situations where they do not have policies or procedures that address that addressed the topic and that provide a mechanism to address it.

[00:05:48.74] spk_4:
Okay. Okay, um, we’re gonna We’re gonna be talking from the organization perspective. Also, the individual perspective. I did get some comments on the website and by email. Um, so I’ll be sharing those throughout, you know, But let’s, uh I’d like to start with, um, prevention on. I know you do a lot of training in that area for nonprofits. Um what? Let’s Let’s talk about the policy. There ought to be a policy on sexual harassment.

[00:06:01.05] spk_0:
Yes, what

[00:06:01.34] spk_4:
should be in it? What tell Tell us

[00:06:16.20] spk_0:
so a policy regarding sexual harassment should, first of all, not be limited to sexual harassment. But all kinds of unlawful harassment investment that’s based on someone’s legally protected category could be race religion categories that various laws recognize as worthy of legal protection,

[00:06:22.49] spk_4:
orientation, sexual orientation,

[00:07:07.52] spk_0:
orientation, different things like that. So the policy should set out examples of what sexual harassment, what kinds of conduct could constitute sexual harassment. Welcome physical conduct, verbal conduct, unwelcome visual conduct, visual things that could be pictures. Posters could be pornography in the workplace. So the policy should set out what kinds of things give example so that employees and their supervisors understand about what kinds of things could caught could constitute sexual harassment to give examples of the type of behavior that the organization prohibit.

[00:07:08.01] spk_4:
Yeah, what are we talking about? Basically, this is what I’m not asking. You mean essentially, What are we talking about? What kind of conduct behaviors are we talking

[00:07:15.74] spk_0:
about? Okay, so the posse should give examples of what it is. Okay? The policy should also have a complaint procedure and tell employees where they need to go, who they should contact

[00:07:32.80] spk_4:
specifically. Like here’s the phone number. Here is the address of email, maybe address. If it’s an off site location. Here’s the person’s name. I mean, not just contact a supervisor that’s sounds inadequate.

[00:08:24.24] spk_0:
Well, it may be. Contact. Contact a supervisor or contact your supervisor and contact. Human resource is okay. Sometimes the policies will include a phone number or an email, but not always the case. It may be contact wth E. Contact the human Resources Department or contact the director of Human Resource is okay contact in the event it’s It’s your supervisor who’s engaged in who you believe has violated the policy. Contact another supervisor and and or contact human resource is. So in other words, you’re giving your giving the position or the title of the of the person to be contacted and where to go and what the avenue is in order to make a complaint. So it’s important to have the complaint procedure, and it’s also very important that there is a policy that prohibits retaliation. The law prohibits retaliation.

[00:08:39.84] spk_4:
We’re gonna talk about that right now, find to bring it up because part of policy. But, yes, we’re going to get to a situation where someone feels that they were retaliated against on That’s illegal,

[00:08:52.54] spk_0:
right? Okay, that’s illegal. And it’s a very important, very important area to train on and to have a policy about because sometimes the complaints itself, maybe meritless. And what ends up happening is theirs, then retaliation. And that’s also unlawful. And that can also get an organization.

[00:09:09.01] spk_4:
Yeah. Now devolving the situation is devolving badly, right? Okay,

[00:09:10.84] spk_5:
um um,

[00:09:47.60] spk_0:
so that there should be policies. And also there should be postings in the workplace regarding the various agencies at the at the federal and state level. And if the organization’s covered under the federal laws that prohibit discrimination, there should be postings in the workplace letting employees know what their what their rights are with respect to filing a complaint. Externally, the hope is that the organization has a policy that prohibits sexual harassment and a complaint procedure so that it can be addressed internally and early before before an issue escalates. How

[00:10:03.09] spk_4:
prevalent are these policies? I’m hoping I’m sure 100% e I know. Should I? No, that’s the normative. What’s the reality? what do you do? You see that there rocking a lot of places. Uh,

[00:10:33.04] spk_0:
I see that there can be gaps that that there may not always be policies in place and or they haven’t been kept up to date with changes in the law. They’re also should be a policy that addresses even bystander obligation. So if you see something even apply, see something, even if even if they don’t feel that they are that the conduct is directed towards them that they should be reporting it, they should be reporting it using the complaint procedure that it’s an important thing for others who observe violations of the organization’s policy to report it, because that’s a way to prevent these things from occurring.

[00:11:12.91] spk_4:
Your escalate if your witness to something that’s a lot of what’s in the press is a lot of people who are aware stood by Oh, you know, we’re quiet about it, And rumors were, you know, circulated. But never anything official. Uh, don’t I’m thinking of the cases in Ah, in Hollywood, especially, um Okay, um let me, uh Let’s Ah, let’s take a break.

[00:11:37.00] spk_3:
It’s time for a break, wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filed on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get the advice of an experienced partner. You each tomb and ah, whole firm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Wegner-C.P.As dot com. Let’s hear more of sexual harassment in nonprofits. Now

[00:11:57.81] spk_4:
back to Lisa Broner. She and I are talking about sexual harassment in nonprofits. You want to join the conversation? 8774804120 is the number, or treat us with hashtag non profit radio. And we’re also on Facebook live. Thank you, Lisa.

[00:11:59.04] spk_0:
You’re welcome. Okay. All right. Yeah.

[00:12:01.08] spk_4:
All right. You don’t go anywhere.

[00:12:02.53] spk_0:
I’m still he

[00:12:03.30] spk_4:
Excellent. All right.

[00:12:04.50] spk_5:
Um, I

[00:12:05.37] spk_2:
want to get

[00:13:59.64] spk_4:
our I want to get our first, um, communique in first story for story this one came from And email. Um, this woman is a professional fundraiser. Once I partnered with the dean and a visiting alumnus who was also a dean at another university for a cultivation dinner. He put his hand on my hand when we were at the table alone. It was very uncomfortable. I must have been barely 30. The next day we had meetings set up for him to meet with other university officials, and I was alone in the car with him. He put his hand on my leg. I really don’t remember the details, but I do remember thinking he was a pig. Another time, an alumnus asked me out during a cultivation meeting. Of course I declined and steer the conversation back on topic of supporting his alma mater. And finally I was working with an alumnus who agreed to make a six figure gift and asked that I pick up the check at his apartment at 5 p.m. I wasn’t thrilled with his request, but I didn’t feel like I had a choice. I went. He offered me a drink. I accepted, and then we went to dinner. The following week, he contacted me and asked if I wanted to meet him again and said that quote, I seemed sad and that he would cheer me up. End quote. It felt so dirty and like he believed I owed him somehow for his gift to the institution. He didn’t like it when I declined and said he was wrong, that I was happily married with one with a beautiful daughter. This raises a couple of things for me. First is is one woman three times three stories. So, you know, we had me to think we hear these numbers, uh, one woman could experience ah, harassment abuse at the hands of multiple guys. Um, Lisa, this race is also an interesting relationship. The fundraiser donor. I mean, the donor obviously has vastly greater power than the fundraiser.

[00:14:05.37] spk_5:
Um,

[00:14:20.07] spk_0:
you raise you raise an excellent point, and that is that as the and sometimes that organizations may not be considering. That’s the issue of non employees, harassment of of employees and that employers can still be liable for harassment that’s committed by non employees against their employees.

[00:14:27.86] spk_4:
Employers can be liable.

[00:14:29.21] spk_0:
Yes. Yes. Okay. Employers can’t be liable. So it’s very important that the policy the sexual harassment policy that we were talking about, that it addresses specifically that the organization prohibits that they’re prohibition off against sexual harassment includes harassment of their employees, the job applicants and employees by non employees.

[00:15:02.61] spk_4:
So interesting. You just brought in job applicants to yeah, have nuances that the laws here. This is why we have experts. Okay. Job applicants are covered as well as employees. Okay. I’m sorry. God, I want to point that out. Guys.

[00:15:06.34] spk_0:
Yeah, uh, and, uh,

[00:15:07.95] spk_4:
could be volunteer’s board members.

[00:15:19.16] spk_0:
It could. It could be board members. Could be donors. It could be other non employees. That could be it could be a vendor who comes on premises who’s who’s sexually harassing an employee.

[00:15:25.88] spk_4:
All right, so our policy needs to make sure that it’s covering not only harassment by employees,

[00:15:42.00] spk_0:
exactly against other employees, but also that it’s covering harassment by non employees against employees and that the organization has a plan for how they’re gonna address those situations. Okay, depending on what the situation is.

[00:15:44.78] spk_2:
The other thing, this

[00:16:44.88] spk_4:
raises for me now, and I want to make explicit that, uh, for purposes of tony-martignetti non profit radio. Today, we are assuming 100% truth and validity in the stories that I’m gonna be reading. That’s not how the law works. That’s not how an investigation would work, but, um, it’s my show. So for the for today, we’re taking these all at face value as truth. Okay. Um, so that raised that because I’m gonna like nit pick a little bit and I want to see if this makes any difference to you. Um, some of these three stories that the woman shared were pre gift, and one was post gift. The gift I already been made. It was a week after the gift had been made. Uh, does that Does that make any difference to you in a analysis of whether the power still exists, whether they could still be sexual harassment,

[00:16:46.65] spk_0:
it doesn’t. It doesn’t. It doesn’t make a difference. And you raise a good point. Are allegations for over

[00:16:53.68] spk_4:
this year’s all I could do a spot them like a student in love, But I can’t answer any of them. That’s why you’re here.

[00:18:28.56] spk_0:
So s Oh, yes, allegations. That’s allegations. And you’re asking whether there’s difference between what pre gift or posted three ideas is that we recognize that the nature of the relationship has a has a power imbalance, uh, and that the donors in a position of giving or taking away and and the employees although their employment is not, is not ah is not governed by that, so that when we talk about the power dynamic, we’re talking about a supervisor and employees. But the employees may be feeling well. Ah, this is a donor. It’s a big donor for the organization. It puts me in an awkward situation when really, what the employees should be saying, whether it’s a donor or or a vendor coming on premises, because it’s not really about the power and balance. When you’re dealing with non employees is it’s if that employee believes that they’re they’re being sexually harassed, that it’s an unwanted, unwelcome sexual advances, then they should be telling their employer about what the situation is. Okay, this is what happened to them. Your question was, doesn’t matter whether it’s pre gift or post gift. It doesn’t matter. The point is, is that if it’s unwelcome conduct, that’s really what the focus is. If it’s unwelcome conduct, then that’s something they should be reporting to their employer so that them employer can address that with the donor.

[00:18:29.64] spk_4:
Okay, very good. Excellent. Thank you. Setting the second spot, the issues, But I’m not, uh

[00:18:35.35] spk_0:
it was good. That was a very good question about after

[00:18:43.90] spk_4:
passing. And we think that woman for sharing for sharing her stories. Thank you very much. um,

[00:18:44.86] spk_2:
let’s talk about some

[00:19:04.64] spk_4:
training. So we we we have a policy that you leave. We have, ah, Lisa broader approve policy, All right, It’s It’s bona fide has everything. It should, um, training on boarding employees on boarding board members again, all all focused on prevention. We want to stop these things from from happening what we were doing. Our training.

[00:19:43.21] spk_0:
I think training is probably one of the best investments and non profit can make training for its for its employees, for supervisors separate training for supervisors because the supervisors, the actions that the supervisors take can result in the organization being strictly liable. So separate training for supervisors and also and training for employees. And I don’t see this, but I think it’s a very good idea for organizations to be providing us part of their on boarding for board members, providing training on what the organization’s policies are regarding sexual harassment and retaliation.

[00:20:18.85] spk_4:
Okay, you said you’re not seeing that, but it’s a good idea. Yeah, All right. So, Well, there’s a lot of good idea it. So this is important. So, um, organizations, you know you’re getting you’re getting free advice here. Ah, have on boarding your board. Members include training on the not only the organization sexual harassment policy, but prevention recognition of the of the, uh of what’s inappropriate. What’s that? That is part of the policy.

[00:20:20.50] spk_2:
What about from the board member of perspective? How about if, let’s take a

[00:20:45.00] spk_4:
small organization? There isn’t an HR person, um, small organization 45 people. And it’s the CEO who, uh, someone a woman believes is is, uh, engaged in harassing behavior. It doesn’t feel that she can reported anywhere in the office, goes to a board member. What’s a board member? How does a board member react to that?

[00:21:16.47] spk_0:
I think the board should should have. There should be some mechanism. As I said, there really needs to be a policy for a small organization on on how how to address that. Maybe the board decides they’re going to bring in a They’re going to bring in a consultant, someone to investigate someone with experience investigating such claims and then report to the board that person’s findings.

[00:21:19.73] spk_4:
So that would be a part of your policy. I guess how it’s going, how the investigation is going to be conducted.

[00:22:05.03] spk_0:
Absolutely. The sexual harassment policy would indicate that not only here’s our complaint procedure, but once you complain how we’re gonna handle it, there’s gonna be a prompt and thorough investigation which an employer has a legal obligation to dio both a prompt and thorough investigation. There’ll be an investigation, doesn’t need to be done internally and and often times an organization will decide to go external so that they have an independent person who’s investigating the complaint. And then the results of that investigation will be reported to that. Employees the employees always also has the right to go externally. There are government agencies where they can make complaints of sexual harassment. Whether they go, if they’re covered by the federal law, that can go to the e o c. On if they’re if the organization is covered, I should say, if the if the organization is covered by the federal law because there have to be 15 or more employees, they could go to the federal agency that enforces certain Equal

[00:22:55.24] spk_4:
Employment Opportunity Commission, and we’re gonna get into some of that on the state and local also, Um what? How about in the moment? Okay, I I want to cover the employees and also the person to whom it’s reported. What say it is the CEO. So in the employee, in the moment it’s happening in the workplace, something inappropriate has just happened in the lunch room. It just happened right now, and I feel that I’m the female who feels that I’ve been abused, harassed. What do I do right now? It’s happening right now.

[00:23:26.74] spk_0:
Well, really. The best thing for someone to d’oh when they feel that there’s unwelcome conduct is to let the person know who engaged in that conduct, that the conduct is unwelcome immediately, immediately. Sometimes, sometimes the person isn’t aware of what they said. Maybe they are, but sometimes they’re not, that whatever is being said is unwelcome, and the employees should tell that person it’s always that’s the best. First step is to tell the person that the conduct is unwelcome.

[00:23:31.39] spk_4:
Just using those words what you just did.

[00:23:34.89] spk_6:
What you just

[00:23:46.18] spk_4:
said is really inappropriate. And I don’t like it. Yeah, it’s it’s okay, okay. I’m trying to empower people, all right, in that moment. Okay? So call it out immediately.

[00:23:47.86] spk_0:
Called out immediately, or sometimes if somebody’s processing it and is taken aback.

[00:23:53.49] spk_4:
Yeah, I read a lot. That right? I didn’t know how to react. I was frozen. I didn’t Yeah, okay,

[00:24:36.14] spk_0:
then when they are able to be in a emotional state toe, have that conversation to tell the person that it’s unwelcome and it needs to stop immediately so that that’s a first, best step and then to follow whatever the complaint procedure is about how to report that those kinds of things. What is what is the organization’s complaint procedure? Sometimes they don’t feel comfortable. Person doesn’t feel comfortable going to that person directly. I mean, the best way to to have something stop is to tell that person that it’s unwelcome,

[00:24:48.74] spk_4:
right? But that could be hard going back. Let’s say she was frozen in the moment. Five minutes later, the last person she wants to see is that guy. So So Then go to the next step, which is Follow the complaint procedure.

[00:24:52.16] spk_0:
Yes.

[00:24:54.53] spk_4:
Okay. What if there is no complaint procedure?

[00:25:13.68] spk_0:
Thank Goto. Go to another supervisor. In other words, if it’s your supervisor, if it’s an employee supervisor who’s engaging in the conduct, go to another supervisor, find any supervisor to address it and have that supervisor step in to stop to stop the behavior.

[00:25:35.24] spk_4:
Okay. Excellent. Now you’re the supervisor. You’re the You’re the import. Yet you’re the supervisor in the office. Someone has just come to you. It just happened three minutes ago. I didn’t know what to do. I got myself out of the situation. I mean, I can’t remember all the details, but I do remember that he touched me this way. What do you as the supervisor do? What do you say? What do you do in that moment? It just happened.

[00:25:48.74] spk_0:
So the supervisor, it’s going to depend again on this on the particular fax of of the organization. And what? How big they are in terms of what what other resource is they have. So in an organization that has a human resource is person and where the policy and procedure is contact human contact. Human resource is they will go to human resource. That supervisor should go to human resource is immediately immediately. And tell them this has been reported to may.

[00:26:16.92] spk_4:
Okay, um, I want you to hold that thought we’re gonna come back to see because I take a little break, cause I gotta take care of my sponsors. Okay, so

[00:27:38.33] spk_3:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software, Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work. That has the features you need. And the exemplary support that you’ve heard about that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for tony Steak, too. 20 NTC The 2020 non profit Technology conference coming up. Baltimore, Maryland. I hope you’re going. It’s an outstanding conference. There are a lot of very wise speakers there, and as you’ve heard many times, it is not only four technologists by any means. It’s for anybody who uses technology, which is all of us. I’ll be there on the exhibit floor in Booths 3 16 and 3 18 capturing lots of smart interviews for the show Coming months in the show we’re sponsored, thereby Cougar Mountain software so you’ll see us in a booth. Oversized booth double booth together. Um, thank you to Cougar mouth and software for sponsoring us at NTC. Come

[00:27:38.57] spk_2:
by, Come by, Say hello

[00:27:43.41] spk_3:
if you’re there. Come see us in Booth 3 16 and 3 18 Um, we’ll be the ones making a lot of noise doing interviews because I have an external speaker so you can hear it all in the video on this is that tony-martignetti dot com. And that’s tony Steak, too. Let’s go back to sexual harassment in nonprofits.

[00:28:28.86] spk_4:
Lisa Brauner were back with her. She is, uh ah. Partner, attorney and partner at Perlman and Pearlman in New York City. Um, if you want to join the conversation about sexual harassment in nonprofits 8774804120 is the number 8774804120 tweet us with hashtag non profit radio were also on Facebook live on the tony-martignetti non profit radio page. I give you a little homework assignment, but actually, I do remember where we were,

[00:28:30.72] spk_0:
but when I say I’m sorry, let your mom.

[00:28:53.11] spk_4:
Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. A lot of times I don’t remember. So you’re off the hook In case you forgot. I remember. We’re now in a smaller I know you do. We’re now in a small organization um, without a policy, and the employee has just come right now to you as a supervisor. What do you say first? What do you say to her?

[00:29:12.64] spk_0:
I think the supervisor would express concern about what the employees had expressed to the supervisor and let the employees know that they’re going to address it if there’s not. If there’s not an HR person

[00:29:16.17] spk_4:
from their isn’t

[00:30:12.60] spk_0:
they will. They will. They will bring it to the and is still is your hypothetical still that it’s the CEO who had engaged in the conduct or just another supervisor? Okay, so another supervisor. So then there’s no policy. But I think the logical step would be that the supervisor then brings it up the chain of command and the absence of a policy. Yeah, it would make sense to bring the complaint up the chain of command, meaning that the supervisor then goes to the CEO and addresses it with them and the CEO and the absence of having an HR person that would be a conversation, then with the board. And there may be a determination. They’re gonna bring in an employment attorney to investigate the complaint, and there will then be some discussion about the fact that there needs to be a policy that I was going back to the policy because it’s really a baseline is that Polish

[00:30:16.11] spk_2:
should have won. For God’s sake, I have get one. If you don’t have one, get one. For Pete’s sake, just have it. What? What you

[00:30:21.76] spk_4:
know. But we have to cover the contingency because I’m sure it’s not 100% coverage of these things. As you’re well aware, the policies are not 100% of nonprofits,

[00:30:29.05] spk_0:
right? And I would also say, Get insurance, get GPL insurances, employment practices, liability insurance.

[00:30:43.98] spk_4:
Pl thank you for defining that. Otherwise you’d be in jargon jail, e p l employment practices, liability insurance. Talk to your insurance carrier about E p L coverage. Okay,

[00:32:15.32] spk_0:
yeah, so that’s a good idea to. And the training is really it’s essential, and not just about preventing sexual harassment but really preventing retaliation, training for employees on the issue of bystander being a bystander, and obligations to report violations of the policy that they see even if they are not personally affected by what’s going on. So the training on those issues, this really critical sexual harassment prevention, other kinds of preventing other types of unlawful discrimination, harassment in the workplace and preventing retaliation, which is an area that really is it is, ends up getting a lot of organizations in in trouble. A National, a large national nonprofit organization, recently settled a retaliation case for close to $2 million earlier this year. The allegations were, and it was it was a case that was settled. So these allegations thes were just allegations. The allegations were that the organization had fired the HR director and the in house counsel after those individuals reported to the organization that they believe there were complaints of discrimination not by them but by others. And the allegation brought by the E. O. C. Was action brought by the E. O. C. Was that that those two individuals had been terminated in retaliation for having brought forward complaints by

[00:32:20.72] spk_4:
having done their job.

[00:32:31.51] spk_0:
Yeah, settlement was $1.95 million. So the issue of although these were allegations the issue off claims of retaliation are very important for organizations to take seriously and to prevent those those claims from arising by offering by having training for both their board and their employees.

[00:34:20.69] spk_4:
I want to bring in another story I got This is, uh, on the website tony-martignetti dot com Comment. I was working for three years in an embassy of a foreign country in the U. S. A. And during those same three years, I was sexually harassed by different diplomats and employees who were locally hired. I wasn’t the only one suffering from this treatment. Many of my co workers would complain to me about this behavior and there were never any consequences. Even after talking to the perpetrators immediate supervisor or to the administrator of the embassy, we were cornered in offices. Minister would measure our breasts in front of other people. Nothing doing it private makes this behavior justifiable. But there were even witnesses of this behavior, and no one did anything about it. We’d receive sexual propositions, or cat called in the office. And we were all too afraid to speak up because this could have consequences against us women and no consequences against the perpetrators. After three years of silence, I had had enough. So I decided to speak to the administrative Minister in charge of the personnel about my problem. But although she behaved as an ally, I wasn’t comfortable enough to give her names because in the list I would have had to include my boss. I told her I was willing to start a campaign with workshops to train men about appropriate workplace behavior with female co workers. She told me to follow up and write an email with my ideas. Needless to say, she never responded to my email. Um, all right, this raises a few things. Doesn’t sense non non profit so foreign to Foreign Embassy in the U. S. I. C. A resident of resident non citizen. Do they have different standing? If you if you’re not a citizen of the U. S. Does that matter?

[00:34:24.64] spk_0:
Well, I don’t know. I don’t know whether there are particular laws that apply to embassies better located in the United States and the rights of those individuals.

[00:34:35.73] spk_4:
All right, well, let’s put it in a knot

[00:34:36.78] spk_0:
of us. If it was US organization is different. If it’s a different, it’s a different situation.

[00:34:45.60] spk_4:
Okay, let’s put it in a U. S. Non profit. Uh, it’s a resident non citizen. Do they have any lower level of standards?

[00:35:41.34] spk_0:
they have. They’re working for US organization. That’s my hypothetical here, you know, here in the United States, then they would still be protected by our law by their own employees. And our the laws prohibit discrimination against employees, depending on. Like I said, they’re federal. We didn’t really go into it. But their federal, state and local laws and those laws in terms of who’s covered which employers air covered, may depend on the size of the organization. So we there’s a federal law called Title Seven, and that applies to employers with 15 or more employees. So and then states and localities have cities have their own laws prohibiting employment discrimination, and they may have, ah, lower coverage. So, for instance, in New York, both state and New York City human rights laws require generally that you have. You have four or more employees in order for that organization to be covered by the loss.

[00:36:00.38] spk_4:
Okay, Another thing I see here is ah, retaliation, potential retaliation. But we talked about that illegal.

[00:36:29.80] spk_0:
Oh, retaliation. This is retaliation to talk about retaliation. What it is is if if if somebody, if an employer takes some action against someone for engaging in legally protected activity. And what that means is complaining of discrimination or participating, even as a witness in a complaint of discrimination. Opposing discrimination, those kinds of things air protected by the law, those kinds of complaints and participation investigation. So if some action is taken against an individual because they engaged in legally protected activity that’s considered retaliation

[00:36:43.55] spk_4:
would raise a claim of retaliation.

[00:36:52.59] spk_0:
Yeah, putting it quite simply, I mean, there’s a little bit of a different standard, but that’s if if something happens to them because they did that, then that’s generally considered unlawful retaliation.

[00:36:57.08] spk_4:
That’s a that’s a good level for for us. Okay, I don’t wanna get into Ah ah. See Ellie course legal legal education course.

[00:37:04.62] spk_2:
OK, the other thing I

[00:37:18.23] spk_4:
see here is what if the organization isn’t taking action? Suppose there is a policy and they’re not following the policy as the employees. As the aggrieved employees, I don’t see anything happening now. You said I have the EOE see the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. I could go there

[00:37:27.29] spk_0:
if if the organization’s covered you talked about, this may not be covered.

[00:37:40.75] spk_4:
It may not be, um, where just help me out where I’ve been aggrieved and I don’t see my organization doing anything that are following the policy. Wegner following their own policy, and it’s a bigger organization over 15 employees. What do I do?

[00:38:03.51] spk_0:
So employees have the right to file a claim of discrimination either with the federal agency. If the organization is covered, has 15 or more employees or with their state or local But state or city agency government agency that enforces the laws of that state or say we’re varies from state to state or not Every city may have

[00:38:31.97] spk_4:
right. The smaller cities are not gonna have a human rights commission. Um, what about hiring your own attorney? Is there any value in that as the employees it’s been, It’s been three or four weeks. I haven’t heard anything back. I don’t see anything happening. Nobody’s talked to me value in the hiring an attorney to help you enforce your rights,

[00:38:49.97] spk_0:
and employees could. I mean, as an attorney for organizations, I think it’s best for employees to to try to use the the processes that are in place and if they’re not able to, if if if they’re not able to avail themselves of those avenues

[00:38:57.16] spk_4:
where they availed themselves, but they’re

[00:39:13.22] spk_0:
not getting back. You’re not getting a response. They may not be satisfaction, but they’re not getting response to the allegations. There’s not. There’s not an investigation being done, and it’s not proceeding in the manner in which the policy has said then they certainly are within their rights to tiu contact an attorney.

[00:39:22.60] spk_4:
Okay, Okay, um, you got take another break again, hanging with this

[00:39:42.97] spk_3:
time for our last break turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists so that your call gets answered when there’s knees. When there’s news that you need to comment on so that you stay relevant in your work, including a former journalist at the Chronicle of Philanthropy, they understand our community there at turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for attorney Lisa Bronner and sexual harassment in nonprofits.

[00:39:58.88] spk_4:
We are continuing our conversation. Ah, with Lisa Brauner in

[00:40:04.61] spk_2:
studio and I’d like to turn

[00:40:20.25] spk_4:
to another another avenue. This is, uh, this is from Vanessa Chase. Vanessa Chase election and her sight is the story telling non profit dot com and she says at a conference. One of the facilitators used his session to talk about how, when people make mistakes, they should be welcomed back into the community. His

[00:40:38.47] spk_2:
reason for choosing this topic was self serving. He disclosed that he sexually harassed women at this same conference the year before. You believe that you believe somebody and was essentially forcing everyone to welcome him back.

[00:41:14.41] spk_4:
Unfortunately, the conference organizers did not know one that this had happened, and to that he was going to use this moment to essentially give himself a second chance without any consultation with the conference organizers or the broader community. As an attendee, I immediately felt unsafe. My whole body tensed up and was like that for the remaining two days of the conference. I resented that I was in voluntarily put in this environment and that there was no way for me to easily leave because we were at a retreat center. Then, of course, there were the women who were harmed by this facilitator who were in the audience and some who were not in the audience, and

[00:41:17.21] spk_2:
they had no idea that this

[00:41:44.51] spk_4:
was going to be publicly aired. This conference had no clear, transparent policies in place for people to report sexual harassment. This meant that nonprofits who may have clear internal policies for this unintentionally put staff in unsafe environments where the policies were not consistent with the organizations Lisa brought her. This is interesting. One conferences. You send your employees to a conference. Let’s say you have the employer. You pay all the expenses. What’s the situation here?

[00:41:45.72] spk_0:
It’s very interesting, very interesting issue that’s being raised. And I ended the I think we talked about that. There is There was one conference or one organization that created a way about

[00:42:04.51] spk_4:
that. Yeah, we’re gonna get to that.

[00:42:05.87] spk_0:
Okay, so it’s It’s a very interesting issue, and

[00:42:27.70] spk_4:
their employer liability is that. Is that possible? Employer liability. Again, let’s take my hypothetical. We approve the conference. We’re paying for the expenses for travel and meals and lodging while you’re there. It definitely is related to Europe. Your employment. Obviously those would have paid for it. Is there potential employer

[00:42:28.95] spk_0:
liability? Courts have ruled differently on the issue of when and employers liable outside the workplace, certainly where there can be things outside the workplace and organizations sponsored event and something like that

[00:42:41.68] spk_4:
off outing

[00:42:42.36] spk_0:
where Gala, Where there could be open

[00:42:44.34] spk_4:
house in the office. Well, I’ll be in the office, but we’re you’re thinking off site

[00:43:06.45] spk_0:
outside the four walls of the office. And I think in a in a situation like that, where an employee feels that they’re in an unsafe situation, they have to tell there employer about that because that’s not something that the employer could have anticipated.

[00:43:09.47] spk_4:
Agreed? This is that it was a bizarre one.

[00:43:21.90] spk_0:
Yeah, so? So it’s it’s really kind of outside outside the scope of something that an employer may have envisioned as the courts have gone differently about, you know, how far that how far the workplace extends.

[00:43:30.49] spk_4:
Okay, um, what if you are on a conference organizing committee?

[00:43:47.88] spk_0:
And I’d also say one of things that she was alleging not that she was sexually harassed, but simply that she felt uncomfortable by by being in the presence of someone who had who had a certain that he that he sexually harassed others

[00:43:59.46] spk_4:
right at the conference in the year before, right? Okay, you know, You know what? I’m not even gonna I’m not going to get into the issue. Could she allege? Well, she could certainly allege Could should be successful in a claim of sexual harassment. She the woman who wrote the blood post Vanessa Chase election.

[00:44:08.83] spk_0:
She’s not asserting anything. I know

[00:44:30.73] spk_4:
she’s here. Yeah, it’s interesting. Maybe legal question for me, but let’s not get into it. It’s gonna get too detailed. Let’s take this. What If you’re a volunteer or you’re a conference organizer? You’re in a F P association of fundraising professionals. You put on him conference every year. Do you have an obligation to have a policy around this around? Harassment discrimination for your attendees?

[00:44:47.74] spk_0:
Well, it’s not an employer. It’s on an employer obligation is more of a question of is the environment that you want to create for your attendees, one in which everyone is acknowledging that they’re gonna abide by certain rules when they attend that conference?

[00:44:52.30] spk_4:
Well, I think that yeah, they’re certainly unwritten rules,

[00:45:10.16] spk_0:
but what are they going tohave? Are they going to have written rules? Do they wanna have everyone agree that when you when you come to our conference, you’re going thio agree to certain behavior in certain conduct, And if you don’t then we reserve our right to to not have you attend our conferences anymore. But it’s a different question than an employer. Sure. Okay, All

[00:45:19.39] spk_2:
right, well, I’m testing the bounds of the law. Okay, so it suddenly it’s at least

[00:45:26.16] spk_4:
an issue for conference organizers.

[00:45:27.95] spk_0:
It’s an interesting issue. It’s an interesting issue that blogger races. Yeah,

[00:45:32.30] spk_4:
absolutely on. And if you’re in, this is from again, this is from Vanessa Chase Election, she suggests. If you’re a conference attendee, exercise your agency to attend conferences that are doing their best to create safe environments for women. Ask conference organizers to share their policies publicly and use part of the opening session to make sure all attendees know about the policies. Seems reasonable.

[00:46:02.26] spk_0:
I think I think her hers talking about employers making enquiries particular

[00:46:04.48] spk_4:
is making me incredibly,

[00:46:28.23] spk_0:
particularly where particularly where let’s say, an employee had raised if an employee raised an issue and said I felt uncomfortable because there was this person who admittedly sexually harassed attendees at the conference. It would be interesting for an employer to pursue whether or not there there, that conference organizer has a code of conduct the conference organizer. It might not have crossed their mind, even that there, that there that there should be one. But it’s an interesting issue there now,

[00:47:16.87] spk_4:
all unnoticed because it’s on non profit radio. So every every non profit conference organizer is now on notice. You can play this for them, and any reasonable conference organizer would be listening to non profit radio. So play this. They are unnoticed on dhe. That’s going to, uh, you know, not that we’re trying to help you. I mean, I would like to help you after the fact. I’d like to prevent it to begin with, but conference organizers, ifyou’re non profit, uh, you’re on notice. Case case closed. Okay, Read. Stockman tweeted. Hey asked where would folks find a sample policy for ideas and related to this? Exactly. Read is the non profit ah technology network and 10 which I’m a member of a B sample. Ward is the CEO, and she’s our monthly social media

[00:47:21.38] spk_2:
contributor and they do have

[00:47:32.55] spk_4:
a code of conduct on it. Includes the non profit technology conference as well as I think. I think this would pass Lisa broader muster, but I’m not gonna put you on the spot to say for sure. But where Where is it? Apply a lend 10 spaces again in 10. The non profit technology network, including, but not limited to and tens online

[00:47:39.66] spk_2:
community, platform, online community, social media, right? Yes, webinars and

[00:47:43.90] spk_4:
trainings, they explicitly say Social media, non profit technology conference, non profit tech, ground up snot and 10 labs, et cetera. What What are they talking about? Discrimination Is the unjust er prejudicial treatment of others related to gender, gender, identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, euro, typical ality or atypical ality, physical appearance, body size, age, race or religion that sound pretty comprehensive to you.

[00:48:13.55] spk_0:
It includes categories that, ah are not legally protected in New York, but it may vary from state to

[00:48:20.88] spk_4:
state. They’re being very going beyond that. This is, of course, that they’re entitled. Have anything they want in their policy, right, and

[00:48:25.83] spk_0:
they can put go beyond what’s required. They can put with what they would like in their policy,

[00:49:03.25] spk_4:
And then it goes on t mention behaviors that harassment includes, which I don’t have time to take off, but so you can find an example, um, and then also includes how to report. Uh, there’s an email talk to an intent community team member and how you identify them by their lanyard. Or you could make an anonymous report. They have a WUFU site platform that you could use for anonymous reporting. So it does cover that. And the answer is you can look att en 10 you go to, uh, and 10 dot or ge slash ntc slash at a glance with hyphens between the words slash code of conduct with hyphens in between the words Thank you and 10 for that contribution. And Lisa brought in. We have just a minute. Why don’t you leave us with the last bit of advice, Please?

[00:49:38.86] spk_0:
I think that if you’re gonna have ah takeaway from today is the importance of having policies that prohibit sexual harassment that prohibit retaliation, prohibit unlawful retaliation and that you do trainings for your supervisors and your employees on preventing discrimination, preventing unlawful discrimination, harassment and retaliation in the workplace

[00:49:45.13] spk_4:
and for individuals. Call it out because it’s not going to stop.

[00:49:50.57] spk_0:
And for individuals, it’s important to to call it out and address it. If the conduct is unwelcome, you let the person no employees should let the person know who is engaging in that conduct, that the conduct is unwelcome.

[00:50:03.83] spk_4:
We have to leave it there. OK? Lisa Broner, attorney and partner at Perlman and Pearlman in New York City. There, Perlman and Perlman dot or GE and also at Tax Exempt Lawyer.

[00:50:12.11] spk_3:
Next week, Jamie burst with your organization’s health. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO

[00:51:26.15] spk_2:
creative producers Claire Meyerhoff. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for not profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.

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[00:00:24.99] spk_3:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week, read Stockman

[00:00:26.02] spk_0:
in Fairfax Station, Virginia. He shared the show by tweeting. Tony-martignetti has an awesome radio show. Give a listen. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. Reed. Thank you so much,

[00:00:39.94] spk_3:
folks. You share, I shout, Reid says in

[00:00:44.74] spk_0:
his profile. Job leads welcome. So he does philanthropy, tech fundraising, research and curation. If we can help read out, please do what you know of a job that would be right

[00:00:53.28] spk_3:
for him. He’s at Reed. Stockman read

[00:01:37.74] spk_0:
Congratulations on being this week’s listener of the week. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasized, a phobia if you missed our sixth show in the Innovators. Siri’s board members as relationship builders, there’s more to board fundraising than parlor evenings and give get. Your members can engage your networks and build relationships around giving. Peter Heller shows you how he’s the latest in our innovators. Siri’s he’s principal of Heller Fundraising Group and Maria’s Free Resource is their candid dot org’s for foundation Research and FTC dot gov for campaign contributions. Maria Semple unlocks their treasures. She’s our Prospect research contributor and the Prospect

[00:01:48.79] spk_3:
Finder. Tony Steak, too. Planned giving relationship stories were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding

[00:01:51.08] spk_0:
you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com

[00:01:54.44] spk_3:
But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund

[00:01:56.83] spk_0:
is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO.

[00:02:14.29] spk_3:
It’s a pleasure to

[00:02:33.47] spk_0:
welcome to the studio. Peter Heller. He’s Principle of Heller Fundraising Group. The staff of six consults with nonprofits for capital campaigns, feasibility studies and major gift programs. Before founding the company, he was a fundraiser at Columbia University and four universities before that. The company is at Heller fundraising group dot com, where they have free tools for fund raising.

[00:02:40.03] spk_3:
Welcome. Peter Heller.

[00:02:41.54] spk_4:
Hi, tony. It’s great to be here.

[00:02:42.89] spk_0:
Yes. I’m glad you made it

[00:02:44.71] spk_3:
back. You were You were just in Costa Rica.

[00:02:47.34] spk_0:
I was just got back yesterday. Is that right?

[00:02:49.18] spk_4:
I did

[00:02:49.67] spk_0:
tonight and last night

[00:02:50.71] spk_4:
I got lead. I got back last night.

[00:02:53.14] spk_0:
House. Costa Rica for a vacation.

[00:02:54.71] spk_4:
It’s amazing. I want to go back.

[00:02:56.85] spk_0:
Why? Why is it so amazing?

[00:03:09.67] spk_4:
Beautiful jungle flowers and trees. All my house plants actually air their e. Got to visit all of my house plants. And And there’s a beautiful Yeah, they’re they’re cousins.

[00:03:11.58] spk_0:
And then, of course, to beaches. Yeah, because

[00:03:13.96] spk_4:
I only got to the Caribbean Coast, but it’s it’s wonderful. Uh, yeah. Beautiful place to be. Great people.

[00:03:20.05] spk_0:
Glad you made it back in time. I came just for you. Thanks for doing this on. Not quite, but I did talk you into doing your first day back. Thank you. Um,

[00:03:28.81] spk_3:
okay. Board from board

[00:03:34.19] spk_0:
Fundraising Difficult, difficult, Difficult for board members to be successful at. What’s the What’s the trouble?

[00:03:39.14] spk_4:
Very true. So, you know, I was thinking about the title of our of our talk, which is board members as relationship builders. That was mine. Yeah, and yet very good night. Are

[00:03:49.61] spk_0:
you Are you okay with that consent?

[00:03:52.45] spk_4:
And the

[00:03:53.00] spk_3:
reason I

[00:04:39.64] spk_4:
was thinking about it is that relationship builders For what? Now I’m a fundraiser, a fundraiser, consultant, and but if you take a step back, it’s really we want board members to think of themselves as relationship builders, for the organization with people in the community and that those relationships, if you’re a fundraiser, you really want those relationships to net money. That’s true. Let’s not pretend, right? Yeah, let’s not pretend that that’s not true. And the the reason is called Relationship Building is you want strong relationships that are going to extend beyond money and be way more than just transactional so that you and the other people that you’re building relationships with as board members help your organization make your community stronger, Not just the organization, but that’s the key point that I’m going to get to but really make your organization.

[00:04:51.60] spk_0:
This is all that does. That’s aspiration, right? Absolutely. What? Where are we falling short? Well, in working with our board members as fundraiser.

[00:05:03.79] spk_4:
So first, let’s say there are organizations that are doing a great job engaging their board members as advocates for their organization and where, believe it or not, they’re board members air actually enjoying their board service because a lot of times when I go in the board rooms, you get this feeling that there’s just this this heavy weight on everybody’s shoulders like, Oh, my God. Why did I sign up for this volunteer? You know what I mean? Yeah, It’s like you’ve worked with some of the words like that. Like, why did I sign up for this? You

[00:05:26.66] spk_0:
don’t get a real sense of excitement about

[00:05:47.92] spk_4:
Yeah, Yeah, how You know, how frequently can I check my phone in the meeting without, like, you know, being seen? Some people don’t even care that they’re seen so But the whole idea that I’m going for here is that u um, you want to turn that relationship around with the board members so that they’re really excited about their board service and they’re advocating on your behalf and, you know, you said, What’s the current state? It’s usually not that. So when we go into an organization, were usually called in to help with a capital campaign or to build a major gift program. Sometimes we do one off board training events. But regardless of the scenario, what we find is that we train board members to get excited about what’s going on in that organization and in the community, and it’s really it’s like a mindset difference. It’s not. It’s like a switch you just got to turn on.

[00:06:32.28] spk_0:
So you want them to be more grounded in the in the mission and and the vision exact, More conscious off,

[00:06:34.29] spk_4:
right? Well, there’s really, like, there’s a two part thing Ah, that we tend to tend to talk about. And it may sound kind of like highfalutin or just kind of.

[00:06:44.75] spk_0:
All right, try us. Okay,

[00:07:52.44] spk_4:
um, you know, just philosophical. Traditional, aspirational. But so here. Here’s what it is. Isn’t it negatively inspirational? Yeah. So, really, what happens is that non profit staff leaders and non profit board members, often just by the fact that they have to get some really hard work done day after day, week after week in their community, they don’t step back and see the bigger picture. And what we’re talking about here is simply the bigger picture. And what that is is helping board members to see two things. One what? What is a really positive future for the organization that they’re serving on the board of Tau actually spend time in board meetings talking about that I can give you a few tips on howto actually make that happen in a board meeting a little later. But to get real clarity on what is an even more powerful future for organization look like. And the step after that, which is like the uber powerful thing is what is an even more powerful future for our community Look like.

[00:08:08.07] spk_0:
And you want the board energized and activated, conscious of all this, and then they convey this to the folks that they’re gonna be talking to. Exactly. That’s the That’s the basis of the relation that becomes the basis of the relationship, not a transactional. We need $50,000 this year.

[00:08:21.59] spk_4:
Exactly. So And let me emphasize that point again. In a

[00:08:32.40] spk_0:
way. Let me take a break. All right, on, Ben, I want you to reemphasize. Okay, let me take this break for wegner-C.P.As so that your 9 90 gets filled

[00:08:35.79] spk_3:
out on time so that your audit is finished on time so that you get

[00:08:54.04] spk_0:
the advice of an experienced partner. You Each tomb just on, uh so recently and affirm that has a nationwide non profit practice with thousands of audits under its belt. Um, let’s go. Let’s go back to board members as relationship builders because I was gonna do the live listener love, But I have something on the tip of your tongue. It’s a rite of water on the Ted

[00:09:05.79] spk_3:
Hold off on the live load. I’d like to do live love.

[00:09:08.75] spk_0:
Now I’m doing something else instead of that. All right. I want you. I want to get this out. We’ll do the love. Don’t

[00:10:58.38] spk_4:
worry. Okay? Gotta gotta spread the love shared especially. Okay, So here’s what I’d like to ask you to picture is when we work with nonprofits and they we ask them to show us and tell us how they’re typically communicating about their organization to their community. However, they define that community, including their donors. We find that usually they’re very me, me, me, central centric. And what we encourage them to do is to take themselves out of the equation and talk about their community and the impact that their organization is gonna have on on their community for a better future. So, for instance, um, if we’re working with a, um, thinking of in Westchester, we’re working with ah, child care and Early Education Center, and we’re doing Ah, almost $20 million capital campaign if they go to all their donors and they say, Hey, we need a new building. Can you give us some money? They’re going to get some money. But if they go to their donors and say, You know, the future of our community is gonna be so much stronger if we’re able to have a building that houses Maur young Children and allows more working families to put their kids in a high quality education, Early childhood school and goto work. They’re talking about the future of a community being stronger rather than me. Me, mia Central. So So basically, just we encourage board members and non profit leaders to get into that mind set and then go talk to current donors as well as potential donors from that point of view.

[00:10:59.64] spk_0:
Got okay. Now we need to drill down toe how to. So how are we going to reorient our board’s thinking to get this from aspiration toe action?

[00:11:34.61] spk_4:
Right. So there’s a number of things. The first is that, uh, you know, we do trainings for boards and generally when we’re not there and somebody’s just like you’re you’re asking Hey, how are we gonna do this? We advise that every board meeting should have something on the agenda A that has to do with fundraising and not make it like the last item when everybody’s like, Oh my God, I’m ready to go If philanthropy

[00:11:36.27] spk_0:
What about fundraising? On the I know there’s two things. First of all, what are they? Fundraising and

[00:11:41.59] spk_4:
and exercises that engage the board members and conversations around this topic of a stronger future for our community.

[00:11:48.76] spk_0:
What do you want to see around fundraising in Sword Agenda?

[00:11:57.01] spk_4:
I first of all, I want it not to be like the what it’s like, You know, in grade school, when you’re the the bad kid that gets sat in the corner like philanthropy is usually sat in the corner.

[00:12:07.04] spk_0:
OK, right, that’s what it’s not. What is it? What did this conversation look like? So for these topics, starters going

[00:13:19.34] spk_4:
right, So you wanna have conversations? First of all, let’s talk about the fundraising before we talking way our community. So you want every board member toe, understand how fundraising works in the organization? Not for it to be some mysterious thing that the development director comes to the meeting and gives ah quick report or even the chair of the development committee gives the report. And and then everybody is kind of like, OK, I sort of know what you’re talking about, but it really people need to understand how much it costs to raise the money, What, all the activities there that are happening, what the various sources of revenue are, what they can do to get involved and when they understand things, just like you and I, we’re like, if we’re, you know, there’s something that we’re not sure about. Like I typically look things up on Google the time, right? Wikipedia, Mike. Oh, I don’t know What. So you need to understand, because what happens is that I’m sure you’ve seen this because you’ve been in board meetings is that when there’s a vacuum of knowledge, board members just like all of us, other normal human beings fill that vacuum up with misconceptions. Yeah,

[00:13:25.92] spk_0:
all right. And

[00:13:26.39] spk_3:
you want to do this at every meeting? I’m trying to drill

[00:13:43.91] spk_4:
todo eso, so I want I want every meat. Every meeting has to have an agenda item on there. That’s something like building our culture of philanthropy. And then there’s specifics There’s there’s, you know, reports on not just Hey, we raised

[00:13:46.11] spk_3:
You always start with what? It’s not. Tell me what it is. Okay. Damn it. Damn it. I want to know. What is

[00:14:49.39] spk_4:
it? Uh, now you got me on the spot. Yeah. So that’s good. Um, you want to have in that meeting a discussion of the specifics of how fundraising works? Okay, give some examples. Right. All right. So first, I’ll give you a really good example. We just finished a campaign in Falls Church, Virginia. It’s amazing. Ah, Director of development there. Actually, she was really smart. When she took her job. She insisted that she be called the director of philanthropy. I thought that was was really smart, right? And so their campaigns done. And now they’re looking at How do we keep this culture of philanthropy going? Well, they need to keep talking about it. And people don’t even understand what she does. Has her job. So she, you know, she’s faced with having to explain to her board and her senior staff. Yeah, I got through all this campaign. I, like struggled. I raised $60 million but here all the things that I do week by week, and that’s something that you have to keep talking about. Okay, so that’s a great agenda item,

[00:14:54.30] spk_0:
okay? And the other agenda item what each month is.

[00:15:54.72] spk_4:
So we’re talking about building how to increase board members, understanding of their impact on community on the community that they’re okay. And for me, that’s, um Hey, does it have to be in every board meeting? I don’t know, But you need to have a period of time where you go through exercises and I like to use very simple, like index card exercises were simply literally hand everybody an index card. And you ask them a question. So, for instance, you could have two questions. What’s, uh what would an even stronger future for our organization look like? And what would any even stronger future for our community look like? Because those are two different things. Sure, and and sometimes it’s really interesting to see that that they match up when people So you give everybody in the next card, you say, you know, right? Right down these questions, Then you can do it a bunch of ways, of course, But I like to say you have 20 board members before people share it with the whole group. You have them turn to each other. So you have 10 groups of to

[00:16:04.69] spk_0:
stop hitting the mike stand. Sorry.

[00:16:20.33] spk_4:
Non. No. Well, maybe, Uh okay. So I’m so I’m so, like, emphatic with my arms. I am too. So you got 10 groups of two and you have them share with each other. Okay. Hey, what’d you write? What would you write? Go and do that for, like, two or three minutes. And then one person from each group shares their experiences with the whole

[00:16:40.14] spk_0:
group. Now, the purpose of this again sounds to me like we’re trying to ground board members remind. That’s just remind board members of the importance role that our organization plays in this community.

[00:16:43.18] spk_4:
Right? And the

[00:16:43.67] spk_0:
air. We so important to it.

[00:16:45.32] spk_4:
Yeah. And that there’s a real power in making the organization even stronger to build an even stronger community.

[00:16:59.39] spk_0:
Now we do these, so we’re constantly engaging, reminding board members. How does this convey to board member fundraising went there. Now, there now going out to their network, etcetera. Right. What’s the That’s the action step we want next

[00:17:39.94] spk_4:
right, so that’s excellent question. So here’s what we do is that hopefully, board members through those index card activities and those conversations, they’re beginning to see that there’s a bit of a shift of focus on on how they’re relating to the organization. And then what we do is we train them. Two, take a list of prospective donors. So say, Just let’s say, for instance, you’ve got this board of 20 people that we just talked about. They paired up and say four of them have agreed to go and do some really major fundraising.

[00:17:44.59] spk_0:
Let’s make it a board of six or eight. Okay, More, more. I think that’s more appropriate for our listeners. Okay, it stick with six.

[00:17:50.06] spk_3:
I mean, there are some

[00:17:52.49] spk_0:
20 born. Okay, okay, let’s keep it.

[00:18:24.54] spk_4:
You got eight people on eight people on your board. They’ve gone through this thing exercise, and let’s say three of them have agreed that yet, you know, I’m really excited about trying to do fundraising for the organization. And let’s just assume that for some reason the organization is new to this. They haven’t been doing it before, and so those three people are going to need to contact people in the community and ask them for money. It’s pretty obvious, right? Okay. So, uh, often the way it happens, not a good practice, I think is, you know, they’ll call them up, they’ll send them an e mail. Whatever we’re looking at, identifying the people who can contribute the most money in the community and having these board members actually go and sit down and talk with

[00:18:40.13] spk_0:
them. Okay? You prefer face to face. Some people won’t take a face to face me, right? At least initially.

[00:18:45.04] spk_4:
So So there’s a lot of strategies that we use with people. Regardless, whether we’re helping with a major gift program or a capital campaign on breaking through that, you know that silence on the other end of the phone or on the other end of the email,

[00:18:57.98] spk_0:
right? That’s something that is valuable to have.

[00:20:22.94] spk_4:
Yeah, that’s another. Okay, so let’s assume that the board member is able to sit down with somebody in the community and talk about, you know, have a conversation that hopefully is gonna lead to fundraising. Yeah, And so that same shift of perspective that we talked about in the board meeting is what we want to see happening in the meeting with a prospective donor. Okay, in that the right from the moment that they set up the meeting either on the phone or through an email. They’re talking about the future off the community, not hey, I’ve been assigned to raise money in our community for organization. Can I sit down with you and ask for some money? That’s a pretty weak opening. Yeah, so poor, It’s pork. So we But we shift that perspective in terms of, you know, the future of our community is so important to me that I’m hoping you would spend a few minutes talking with me about that so that I could learn your views and it It’s not so much, actually A, by the way, but we try to make the next part of its sort of, by the way. And you know, my organization is now in a in a fundraising campaign. If you decided to at some point contribute, that’d be great. But first I really want to talk about the future of our community and hear your views. That’s it may sound simple, but it’s a radical change of perspective on the way that fundraising is usually done, particularly by board members who who have this image. I don’t know where it came from, but, like the fundraising equates to arm twisting.

[00:20:41.15] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, all right. Very onerous. I gotta tap all my friends.

[00:21:12.58] spk_4:
Yeah, and it’s gonna be awkward. I don’t want to do it. So again, it’s not for everybody. There’s different jobs for other board members, but those who are willing we can set them up. And this concept can set them up so that they can have, first of all, better success at the at the end of it where they’re gonna get more money. But also that And tony, this is the really exciting part is that they’re actually gonna enjoy these conversations. Like, can you

[00:21:13.22] spk_3:
imagine that?

[00:21:16.60] spk_4:
Board members enjoying conversation.

[00:21:17.20] spk_0:
I’m sure it happened. I’ve been in some that were not so good, but

[00:21:20.84] spk_3:
I’ve I’ve been somewhere

[00:21:22.07] spk_0:
the board, the board members, pretty motivated and and and aware of what the organization is doing, you know? Yeah.

[00:21:29.25] spk_3:
So I’ve seen

[00:21:56.64] spk_0:
both. Yeah, but it certainly needs improvement, because I don’t think you’re I don’t think your average board is particularly motivated about fundraising. Your average board member is really into what they consider to be like you said, arm twisting. Okay, so we drilled down. All right. Thank you. All right, so now we got a couple extra minutes, all right? I want to get to Sometimes I know you. It’s hard to get to the core with you. OK, But we did good notes. So, um Okay, now let’s embellish a little bit. We got electric. We got some time. A few minutes. So what else? What else do you want to fill in around this process?

[00:22:22.81] spk_4:
Well, you know, you you cautioned me about what? It’s not. But you did also ask me before we started for some examples of what didn’t work. Well, so

[00:22:23.63] spk_3:
okay, now, well, that’s different. Yeah. Yeah. So So let me

[00:25:01.32] spk_4:
give you there’s two examples that but they also have good outcomes. So let me let me give you a couple of real concise and you’re okay, So just the 1st 1 is a board that I worked with. There were a lot of people who were in the real estate business, and on this board there were probably three real estate guys and there were other people, too. And I went through this training with them, and their insistence was, you know, like everybody we know is transactional, they’re just they’re not gonna be interested in this. What’s better for the community and growing our community, and they’re not gonna wanna you know, we had identified some people who would join our board, and they’re not gonna want to do this. So two things happen. One is, I explained to them that you three guys are actually here. Something happened that you decided that this organization was important. So you would join the board so that it’s not impossible that other people might get excited beyond writing a transactional check to make you go away. And the second thing that happened was more kind of Ah, I don’t know if it was more for me or for them, but I was like, You know what? I’m not gonna push you. You want it? You believe that your people are transactional. I’m gonna let you just go and get a transactional gift. Let’s see if you get that first and then let’s build upon that. So it’s like meeting the board members where They’re at not insisting that it has to be another way. Thea. Other thing is I actually had success with that. Yeah, they did well, and they built their board and it actually turned around. Okay, I brought this is a two sentence email that a board member for an organization are go ahead and two sentences. Not Yeah, it’s not so bad. Right? So not a page. No. And this is an E mail. I use this in my training’s now because this was sent by a board member. What gets me is it was after they went through our, like, three hour long training on how to do this. And they did this thing that I’m gonna read you anyway. Okay, So this was trying to get a meeting for a, uh, for campaign to discuss a gift, you know, to discuss a gift for a campaign. So it’s like, Hi, Gail, I hope you’re continuing to enjoy the summer. I would love to meet with you at your convenience to discuss our capital campaign. Can you drop us a note as to sometimes That would work for your schedule. Best Rhonda And then So she sent that email. Then I got that. I’m not gonna read you the reply, but it’s basically says we’re gonna make a $5000 contribution. No need to meet. But she’s like, Well, what should I do now? You know, I mean, it was laughable because it was like, Well, you know, you should have come to a sooner. Why don’t you pay attention in the training and have us help you write an email that was talked about the community first. So all of you listening there today, don’t do this. Focus on your community. Figure out what’s exciting about the future of

[00:25:28.25] spk_0:
yours. That $5000 gift that’s called the peremptory gift. Exactly. This is 5000. I’m not really interested in what you’re asking is this is what I’m giving you. No need

[00:25:28.66] spk_4:
to meet, right, because I mean, $5000 from from some people is an amazing stretch gift, right? And for certain organizations that that’s a nice

[00:25:37.26] spk_0:
I’m guessing in this case, this was this

[00:25:39.31] spk_4:
was from somebody who could have given to be asking significant multiples of that in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[00:25:56.21] spk_0:
Right? Peremptory. Okay, So, uh, good point. Why Didn’t you ask us? Seek our advice sooner about how to write? Ah, um, a broader based and more engaging

[00:25:59.40] spk_4:
email, right? So there’s there’s

[00:26:01.61] spk_3:
one other

[00:26:20.01] spk_4:
point that I think is worth making, which is that when organizations are in a capital campaign, which is usually a multimillion dollar project for physical plant door or programs or endowment, or sometimes a combination of all those it’s a time that a lot of this stuff comes up for board members because it’s a time when the organization is forced to train people to do things. However, it’s not necessary that you have to be in a capital campaign for these best practices to come up in terms of relationship building for

[00:27:06.14] spk_0:
border just happens to be when they that’s it’s a common time. Engage a consultant around the campaign around the feasibility study before that, Yeah, right. But you’re the point you made earlier. If you want to continue this culture of philanthropy, way beyond you’re successful campaign absolutely to be ingrained routinely absolute, and that will help set you up for the next campaign. Whether it’s two years later or five years later, or 10 years later, you’ll have this culture and you’ll have these relationships long standing, helping you get into the next next campaign,

[00:27:24.32] spk_4:
right? And the challenge we find often is that when organizations start campaigns, they haven’t been doing this beforehand so that the work to get to the gold they need for a building project or for whatever is it’s harder because

[00:27:30.71] spk_0:
I asked you, stop doing that. It’s harder but monitored. I gave you a free pass to sit. I’ll sit on my hands way got about two minutes

[00:27:33.69] spk_4:
left. So if they can, if you’re not in a campaign and you can build up your culture of philanthropy and your ability to engage your board with community members, then when you need to have a campaign, everybody including your board, your leadership and your community is not gonna be so foreign to this concept of talking.

[00:27:56.67] spk_3:
And that is not rushed for pizza. You know, don’t wait for the campaign

[00:28:00.06] spk_0:
because I’m being more effusive about it. Don’t wait for a campaign to start building relationships through your

[00:28:05.37] spk_3:
board members. Absolute. Do it. I mean, you want you want supporters and you want, uh, engaged community members throughout the life

[00:28:13.28] spk_0:
span of your non profit, not only when you’re in the in the in the 12 months or 36 month

[00:28:18.88] spk_3:
campaign you wanted at all

[00:28:20.43] spk_4:
times. Absolute. Don’t wait. Don’t wait. That should be our slogan. We’ll make T shirts.

[00:28:45.74] spk_0:
All right, We got to leave it there. Peter, how are you? Thank you so much. My pleasure. T shirt, T Shirt Factory. That’s Peter Heller principle of Heller Fundraising Group. You’ll find the company at Heller fundraising group dot com, no aptly named Helen Fundraising fundraising group dot com And they have free tools for fund raising their All right, Thank you again. You’re welcome. Thank you. I need to

[00:28:46.00] spk_3:
take a break. Cougar Mountain Software.

[00:28:48.38] spk_0:
Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. You’ve heard the testimonials about that that I’ve read.

[00:29:11.94] spk_3:
They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now it’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving relationship stories about relationships runs through it because that’s what it that’s what this is all based on its relationships not only fundraising, but all the

[00:29:23.32] spk_0:
support for your organization in whatever form it comes, not just money. It’s

[00:29:26.81] spk_3:
all around relationships.

[00:29:45.74] spk_0:
So what am I talking about in this week’s video planned giving relationships that stand out for me? There are scores of them. Um, the ones I tell on the video are, Ah, Eleanor, Evelyn, Barbara and Jim. Um, these

[00:29:46.07] spk_3:
were stories that are touching.

[00:29:57.64] spk_0:
Um, they’re they’re not always joyful, although overall planned giving relationships to me are enormously joyful. If there’s something that’s the really that one thing that I would say I miss about being an employee versus a consultant because you don’t have the depth of relationship.

[00:30:06.45] spk_3:
But there are still some, even as a

[00:30:12.27] spk_0:
consultant, which I’m grateful for. So it’s

[00:30:12.52] spk_3:
about the relationships,

[00:30:33.84] spk_0:
you know, and then the relationships lead to support, and that is not necessarily money. It could be, but it’s not always, um so I share, so I share four stories on the video video is at tony-martignetti dot com, and that is tony. Take two. Now let’s do the live love. There’s

[00:31:14.91] spk_3:
loads of it. Oh, my goodness, gracious, Look. Boston, Massachusetts Madison, New Jersey, Washington, Virginia Morehead City, North Carolina Woo Um, that could be Maria. Simple possible. Let’s see staying domestic. Tampa, Florida New York, New York, Indianapolis, Indiana Falls Church, Virginia, Los Angeles, California, Seattle, Washington Who the love goes out of Salt Lake City, Utah. Yes, wonderful. The live love. Thank you to each of you, including Miami Lake, Florida. Look at that. It’s just coming and coming. I can’t stop them. Um, the live love goes out. So glad you’re with us. Let’s go abroad. Knows Aillagon leg long France.

[00:31:22.59] spk_0:
Uh, bonsoir, I’m not sure, but the live love goes out. Um,

[00:31:32.64] spk_3:
Beijing, Of course. Beijing. We haven’t seen you for a while. Where have you been anyhow? So glad you’re with us. Tokyo, Japan. Tron. Oh, that’s our Austria. No. But Tokyo, Japan!

[00:31:34.95] spk_0:
We got to do. Of

[00:31:52.24] spk_3:
course. Konnichi wa. Thank you so much for being with us. Tokyo trout on Austria. That’s brand new. Welcome, Austria. Live love to you. Tehran! Iran. Welcome You’ve been. Now you come through loyal. Thank you, Tehran. Live love out there. Very. Varga knew

[00:31:54.03] spk_0:
Brazil. I know I messed that up. That’s terrible. I just don’t know, really how to pronounce it. But I can’t say over Delgado. Thank you for being with us.

[00:32:04.10] spk_3:
That’s the live love. Thanks so much to each of you and ah, the plot. The plod class I’ve been I’ve been bad about this recently. The plod classed pleasantries. Very bad. Um, it’s supposed to be the podcast pleasantries going out to our over 13,000 listeners through that

[00:32:21.63] spk_0:
medium. Thank you for being with us. Pleasantries to the podcast listeners. Thank you,

[00:32:27.39] spk_3:
Maria Semple. I almost forgot her name.

[00:32:29.35] spk_0:
That’s been since so long she’s been on. She’s the Prospect Finder. She’s a trainer and speaker on Prospect research. Her latest book is Magnify Your Business Tips, Tools and Strategies for Growing Your Business or Your non

[00:32:44.90] spk_3:
profit. She’s our doi end of dirt, cheap and free, and she’s gonna live up to it today. She’s at the prospect finder dot com And at Maria Simple. Maria Semple. Do you recognize my voice?

[00:32:51.59] spk_6:
I absolutely d’oh you.

[00:32:53.99] spk_0:
Thank you. You’re better than me that

[00:32:55.54] spk_3:
I almost forgot your name.

[00:32:56.52] spk_0:
No, I’m doing great. I’m doing great.

[00:33:01.38] spk_3:
You’ve been on since last September. It’s been well.

[00:33:01.61] spk_0:
There was hurricane time around then and other issues that cropped up. So it’s very good to have you back.

[00:33:08.71] spk_6:
Thank you. It’s great to be here.

[00:33:11.09] spk_0:
Are you in the in fact, in North Carolina today or you will am Okay. Okay.

[00:33:16.90] spk_6:
We need to get together when you get back.

[00:33:18.79] spk_3:
Let’s not get carried

[00:33:32.71] spk_0:
away now, Sze, keep it to the show, okay? Your husband Ah, I don’t want to say anything online. I don’t want to say no. No, Bob, um So we’re

[00:33:37.39] spk_3:
talking about Maria’s free resource is today. You want to start with Candid dot or GE? You love them?

[00:33:40.94] spk_6:
Yes, Absolutely. Well, since it has been a while since I’ve been on I know we’ve We’ve talked about guide star in the past, and we’ve talked about the foundation centers. Resource is in the past. The one thing we haven’t covered is they kind of murder, you know,

[00:33:56.90] spk_0:
They kind of they did. They are together. Yeah.

[00:34:25.49] spk_6:
Yeah, in 2019. So, um, and we have uncovered it on the show. So I thought it would be a good opportunity to focus on that a little bit, Um, and just kind of give folks an overview. It’s too, you know, exactly. what you can do on the fight, especially for free. Um, you know, we all know that that these sources also provide sea bass upgrades. Premium service is as well, but you’ve labeled me. What is it? Dry in

[00:34:29.33] spk_3:
the end of dirt, cheap and free. You got three in the second. I’ve

[00:34:33.64] spk_6:
gotta keep keep it today.

[00:34:35.30] spk_0:
Today’s Maria’s free resource is so Yeah, you can certainly mention the paid, But

[00:34:39.63] spk_3:
what can we do for free?

[00:34:40.59] spk_0:
That’s valuable. A candid dot or GE

[00:36:41.43] spk_6:
So you can still do the 9 90 finder. And what I really like about that is, um, you know, we often have, you know, organizations that you know, sit around in their meetings. You know, Peter was referencing in the first half hour of the show talking about, you know, getting your board together. You’re six people. Eight people tend whatever it is. And when you start having conversations around X spending your your basis supporters in major gift, um, sometimes those folks will be giving to you through a foundation checkbook as opposed to a personal cheque book. Um, and very often you may not even realize that there are folks with a foundation checkbook who may be in your backyard. So what I like about the 9 90 finder is that you can you if you mean it, when you log into the candid site and you you go to look at the various research things you can do on their things, you can do tab. Then you go to the 9 90 finder. You can click on more search options once the search box appears, and it’ll allow you to put in a specific zip code where you want to be able to do some prospecting. So again, we’ve talked in the past about reactive prospecting and proactive. So sure you could do the reactive stuff. You could still go in. Put in the known name of a foundation that you want to learn more about. That’s more of the reactive. But if you’re trying to come up with a list of potential maybe family foundations in your community, this is a great way to do it, and so you can prospect it by a specific zip code. And then when you do that and you come up with your list of search results, what I like to do then is to click on the Total Assets column so that you can actually sort the results. So if you want to see the results by total assets from lowest to highest or highest Lois, it gives you an opportunity to say immediately, Who are those largest foundations right here in our community? Um, and I think that could be immensely helpful for small to midsize non profit who really serve a specific geographic region.

[00:37:07.01] spk_3:
Okay, Okay. Excellent. The 9 90 finder.

[00:37:34.78] spk_6:
Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, you know, once you have that, those lists of foundations, you know, certainly click on them. Ah, and so that you can get to the actual 9 90 itself, which is going to be chock full of information as everybody. I’m sure listening knows, Um, what I like about it is that sometimes I’ve looked at some nine nineties that have maybe zero listed in assets or a very low number, like, I don’t know, $1500 or something like that.

[00:37:42.88] spk_0:
You think?

[00:38:21.92] spk_6:
Oh, well, this isn’t a very big foundation. Why should I bother? Even may be looking at this. And when you did a little deeper and you look at the 9 90 Sometimes you’ll find that they’re the reason why it may have a very low or zero number in The Assets column. Is because it is really being used as a passed through right, so their their their intention is not to have those assets sitting there. It’s really to, you know, bring the money in fund funded that year and then immediately cut the checks out in that same calendar year. My tip, I guess, is just don’t discount those really small or zero asset foundations, dig a little deeper and take a look at those nine nineties

[00:38:33.56] spk_0:
eso. So we’re so so where will you find the grant information? So let’s say it is a pastor the way you’re describing, and they make a 1,000,000 1/2 dollars worth of grants every year. Will you find that information on the 9 90 if so, where?

[00:38:49.22] spk_6:
So just kind of some through sometimes they will have. It is a separate attachment. That’s part of the 9 90 though it depends on how many grants they’ve made. But there will be a section of the 9 90 that will list the grants paid in that calendar

[00:39:03.96] spk_0:
year

[00:39:19.49] spk_6:
and you’ll actually up, you’ll actually be able to see exactly the organizations that receive the money and how much they received. And sometimes if they even have money if approved for future payments, right? So maybe they’ve made a a multiyear commitment to an organization. And so they may decide to list out, um, the future years that they anticipate to pay out to that organization

[00:39:31.04] spk_0:
as well. So that’s a that’s a cool that’s a pro tip. So don’t pay so much attention to the assets as you do the granting that they do.

[00:39:40.02] spk_6:
Yes,

[00:39:40.56] spk_0:
exactly.

[00:39:41.33] spk_6:
I

[00:39:41.50] spk_0:
would pay

[00:40:09.74] spk_6:
much more attention to the grants paid than you know than the other. And also you want I’m able to be able to see. Is this foundation even accepting proposals at all? Because you don’t really want to spin your wheels on approaching foundations and you know, sitting there and writing a grant proposal and you send it off in the mail. And then, you know, you kind of sit there waiting when in fact, this foundation may not accept proposals.

[00:40:13.00] spk_0:
That’s an enormous. That’s an enormous fail. If you’ve spent time, even if you know, if you spent time writing a letter of inquiry. If they’re not accept there, So how do we find this out?

[00:40:22.11] spk_6:
So on generally, it’s on page 10 of the 9 90

[00:40:25.96] spk_3:
going the

[00:40:26.96] spk_6:
way down

[00:40:27.72] spk_3:
this

[00:40:27.88] spk_0:
expertise on non profit radio.

[00:40:29.47] spk_3:
Go to page 10 of

[00:40:31.52] spk_0:
the 9 90 Yeah,

[00:41:23.51] spk_6:
there’s a check box that the number that the the foundation can check off if they’re not accepting unsolicited proposals. So you want to make sure that that check boxes is checked or not? If it’s checked again there, I wouldn’t necessarily discount them if it feels like, let’s say you’re a kn animal rescue group and you see that this foundation has been making, you know a lot of the majority of their grants are two organizations in you know, that fund animal welfare? Well, maybe there’s somebody on your board that knows one of those board members because don’t forget the board members of the trustees of that foundation are gonna be listed in that 9 90 You might be better off just circulating the names of those trustees with your board to say, Hey, do any of you have a connection with any of these people? I’m not asking you to necessarily make the approach for us right away. But I’d like to see if there’s some way we can get an introduction to the foundation because they seem to be a perfect match for our mission.

[00:42:02.97] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. We got to take a break. Uhm we come back, you know, with a little bit more on candid. But then we got to get the FTC, and you also have some conferences you want. You want to shut out. So, um, just setting setting up the agenda, right? Time for our last break

[00:42:06.64] spk_3:
turn to communications their former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. This is what they used to do so that your call gets answered when there’s news you need to comment

[00:42:17.61] spk_0:
on so that you stay relevant in your community and including former journalist one on the

[00:42:24.56] spk_3:
Chronicle of Philanthropy. So they know this community. You want to build these relationships again? Relationships. Look at the theme coming through. My God, it’s incredible.

[00:42:37.26] spk_0:
Um, I’m gonna build these journalists relationships, so you stay relevant. Turn hyphen to dot ceo, we’ve got

[00:42:44.38] spk_3:
butt loads. More time for Maria’s free resource is okay. You want to give us one more for Ah, Candid.

[00:42:49.66] spk_6:
Yes, sure you do. Two quick ones, actually, For candidates,

[00:42:56.43] spk_0:
I say one. She says Do. Alright, FBO Quick

[00:42:57.78] spk_6:
start. Right, which is the foundation directory online. Quick. Start there too. You can search by a city or state, thereby giving you the ability to prospect by, um, you know, by zip code zip code.

[00:43:11.37] spk_0:
Okay. What is this? What

[00:43:12.21] spk_3:
is this called again? What I think

[00:43:14.12] spk_6:
is as much information provided under this under their free plan. Um so I think the fbo quick start is a little bit more limited. I personally I like the 9 90 finder better.

[00:43:26.66] spk_0:
Okay, wait, hold on. Providing

[00:43:28.40] spk_6:
Klippel about is that they

[00:43:29.64] spk_3:
do have

[00:43:30.05] spk_6:
a tab. They’re called request for proposals. And, um, what they do list there are They connects you to grant opportunities that are available through the philanthropy news digest, and it does include deadlines. So what I like there again if you you’re scrolling through that and you know, you see some opportunities for you to apply for a grant opportunity that you didn’t realize was available that’s coming up. You should still have plenty of time to make the grant deadline and, um, you know, on and get in on the new money.

[00:44:02.03] spk_3:
Okay. Where did you say you find the quick search?

[00:44:06.79] spk_6:
Um uh, those are all under the things you can do. Tab. Um, you have FD. Oh, quick start. You’ve got requests for proposals. Um, and the 9 90 finder. Those air all under the once you get a candid dot or GE go to things you can do and you’ll find those additional tabs.

[00:44:24.49] spk_0:
Okay? And you said the request for proposals includes deadlines.

[00:44:28.09] spk_6:
It does.

[00:44:29.48] spk_3:
Okay, okay. All right, let’s move. Thio FTC dot

[00:44:32.85] spk_0:
gov federal election commission dot gov But f e c f d c dot gov

[00:44:37.14] spk_3:
What you like this for?

[00:46:34.88] spk_6:
Well, I thought since we were in an election year, it would be a good source for people to kind of keep an eye on. Um, you know, folks who are making a political contributions. It does show, you know, a certain level of disposable income and obviously shows political leanings as well, which may or may not be used full depending on the type of organization that you are. Um, so when you get to the F e c. Website. It’s a very busy website. Um, and one of the things that you want to do first is go to the campaign finance data tap. And then from there, you’ll be able to click down where it says, look up contributions from specific individuals. Yeah, so you can. And so basically anybody, um, the what? The reports will include our people making contributions in excess of $200 per election cycle. Right. So let’s say you give somebody, you know, $50 here and there. Once it hits that $200 mark, the, uh, the campaigns have to start filing this with the Federal Election Commission. Um, after he hits that $200 level, right? So again here, one of the things that you have to keep in mind is that you can proactively prospect this you can you can do a search. Uh uh, on, uh, on a zip code. And the data that you’re gonna get is goingto have the name of the person, the air mailing address, their occupation and name of employer. But here’s a big, big caveat is that there is not supposed to be. This data is not supposed to be used in any way, shape or form for soliciting whether they had soliciting business. We’re soliciting charitable donations.

[00:46:40.44] spk_0:
No,

[00:47:00.28] spk_6:
I bring it up as a resource, more so that you can maybe cross check. Are any of your, um, current donors also political contributors? And you know, at what level is a contributing in the political realm and where, But also you should just be aware that again, they they call it salting the data. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that term before.

[00:47:09.27] spk_0:
Sultan. I’ve heard it. A CD. What happened? I’ve heard seeding go ahead.

[00:47:56.08] spk_6:
The committees that are reporting that are sending in their reports, right? Salting the data means they’re going to be sprinkling the report with up to 10 fictitious contributor names. And those contributor names are gonna end up having a really address. It’s usually like gonna be a committee employees or something like that that they may use. So if you start, if you go and do a proactive search by zip code, you might be getting some of this seated data in there, right, that salted data that will enable you to send out, you know, postcard campaign or letters or

[00:47:58.68] spk_0:
whatever,

[00:48:03.80] spk_6:
but it could end up winding up in a mailbox of somebody who’s monitoring to see is somebody using this data illegally,

[00:48:08.58] spk_0:
right? You’re gonna get You’re gonna get snagged. So wegner is

[00:48:11.02] spk_6:
very, very careful

[00:48:12.61] spk_0:
whether or not

[00:48:20.56] spk_6:
use it in that way. But it is a really good source to cross check, you know, and see if any of your donors are contributing politically.

[00:48:34.73] spk_0:
OK, Ok, um, sesame seeds or salted or whatever it is, you don’t use it the wrong way because you’re gonna get you might get caught. And ah, that’s bad. Yeah. Yeah, bad business. Um, just like you seed or sesame seed or salt, whatever. You do your own and your own mail lists to see what you’re sending out, right to see how how timely your mail house is actually sending stuff to the post office, are they? Is it postmarked the day that they say it’s going to postmark? Same. You know, you’re trying to catch them. You’re trying to keep them honest. Well, Federal Election Commission’s trying keep you honest. Okay, enough about that. Um,

[00:49:04.04] spk_3:
that’s interesting. I love that Look up

[00:49:13.77] spk_0:
contributions from specific individuals that school. So you can You can search by when you’re doing an individual’s you could do name, name and name and state can you go like Is that

[00:49:16.36] spk_3:
how you do it?

[00:49:17.47] spk_6:
Yeah, Well, you can You can certainly look

[00:49:19.69] spk_0:
at a

[00:49:19.92] spk_6:
particular individual’s name. Um and, you know, any time I’m doing, you know, my in depth donor profiles. This is one resource I always cross check to see if this person is making large political donations in addition to charitable contributions.

[00:49:36.00] spk_0:
Okay. Okay.

[00:49:37.11] spk_6:
So it’s definitely one of my tools that I use to do research, but I did want to give that caveat on the, you know, proactive aspect of it is You do want to be careful on Don’t use it illegally.

[00:49:49.62] spk_3:
Anything else on FCC?

[00:49:54.76] spk_6:
No, I got it.

[00:49:58.28] spk_3:
Okay, you have some conference is coming up. Did you want to share?

[00:50:40.82] spk_6:
Yes, right. So before you know it, the big annual APA conference will be coming up. It’s always in the summer months. And so APRA You’ve heard me talk about them before. It’s the Association of Professional Researchers for advancement. Their website is APRA home dot or ge. And there you’re gonna see various opportunities. So the big one is their summer conference. Um, and that is held. Um, that is held, uh, August 4th through the seventh. It’s going to be held in Washington, D C this year. Um, and you can learn all about that, you know, on Apple’s website. So that’s sort of the biggie.

[00:50:46.56] spk_0:
And

[00:51:29.46] spk_6:
then I thought I’d just let you know about some Call them smaller, More regional conferences that are taking place. One is coming up real quick in also in Washington D. C. Actually, um, on march 12th the APRA Metro D C. Chapter is having an annual conference, so that might be one to put on your calendars if you’re in that neck of the woods. Um, another one is, um APRA Greater New York chapter is presenting something called Prospect Khan 2020. That will be March 17th. And that’s taking place at the N Y U Kimmel Center. Uh, you’ve got

[00:51:31.25] spk_0:
Marie 20

[00:51:32.19] spk_6:
third.

[00:51:33.17] spk_0:
Yeah, go ahead. Where’s March 23rd?

[00:51:35.80] spk_6:
New Orleans.

[00:51:36.66] spk_0:
There you go. Get

[00:51:37.58] spk_3:
out of the Eastern Sea

[00:51:40.59] spk_0:
s get out of the Eastern Seaboard. Overdrive

[00:52:05.84] spk_6:
is happening March 23rd. Ah, in New Orleans and the other one I want to talk about is in the Midwest on May 7th. APRA Midwest is having a conference 2020 and that’s gonna be, um, May 7th and eighth in Des Moines, Iowa. And so again, if you go to the APRA website, you’ll be able Thio find all of these particular opportunities available. Thio under their events Tab,

[00:52:11.84] spk_3:
Are you a conference speaker? Do you still do that?

[00:52:26.86] spk_6:
I am not speaking at any of the upcoming up APRA conferences this year, but I’ll tell you, they’re speakers are always amazing. Um, very often they’re going to be from some of the larger universities and so forth. And so even a small to midsize non profit will have a lot of takeaways by attending thes conferences. And again, if it’s not your budget to go to the big annual conference, see about some of the chapter opportunities, um, that are closer by and those air usually gonna be a bit more affordable.

[00:52:58.26] spk_0:
Your practice is so robust you don’t need to be speaking any longer. It’s the clients are coming to you. All right,

[00:53:00.75] spk_6:
enjoy it.

[00:53:01.37] spk_3:
And you share your expertise here as well?

[00:53:06.80] spk_0:
Absolutely. All right. Um Let’s make sure we we don’t wait another September, October, November, December, January, February, March Another six months before you come back. Okay?

[00:53:13.92] spk_6:
Absolutely.

[00:53:27.85] spk_0:
All right, Let’s work on that. And maybe a dinner. We’ll see. Like I said, let’s not get carried away. They will keep it to a lunch. I feel like a better lunch. Better, thank you very much. She’s the Prospect Finder. Ah, at Maria Simple. The prospect finder dot com are doi end of their cheap and free. Thank you, Maria. Simple.

[00:53:34.94] spk_6:
Thank you.

[00:53:35.59] spk_0:
My pleasure.

[00:53:38.20] spk_3:
Next week. Sexual harassment

[00:53:43.79] spk_0:
in Nonprofits timed to the sentencing of Harvey Weinstein. If you

[00:53:43.98] spk_3:
missed any part of today’s

[00:53:45.10] spk_0:
show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com

[00:53:49.13] spk_3:
were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As. Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Coca Math and Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot c e o

[00:54:14.44] spk_2:
our creative producers. Graham. My route Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. And this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95 percent. Go out and be great.