Nonprofit Radio for March 8, 2021: Domestic Terrorism and Your Nonprofit & 21NTC

My Guests:

Mickey Desai, Heidi Beirich & Pete Clay: Domestic Terrorism & Your Nonprofit
Insurrection at the US Capitol. Insurrection by redditers against hedge funds. Our nonprofit community is also at risk of domestic terrorism, regardless of mission. What are those risks and what can you do to minimize them? In collaboration with the Nonprofit SnapCast podcast, my guests are Mickey Desai, SnapCast host, Heidi Beirich at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism, and Pete Clay with CyberOpz.


Amy Sample: 21NTC

Amy Sample Ward

Amy Sample Ward returns to reveal what’s planned for NTEN’s virtual 21NTC on March 23 to 25. Many of their smart speakers will be guests on Nonprofit Radio over the next months. Amy is NTEN’s CEO and our social media and technology contributor.



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[00:02:22.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of synesthesia if I sensed that you missed this week’s show. Domestic terrorism and your non profit insurrection at the US Capitol Insurrection by Reddit Ear’s against hedge funds are non profit. Community is also at risk of domestic terrorism, regardless of mission. What are those risks and what can you do to minimize them? In collaboration with the nonprofit snap cast podcast, my guests are Mickey D’s I Snap cast host Heidi Barrick at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism and Peat Clay with Cyber Ops, also 21 T. C Amy Sample Ward returns to reveal what’s planned for intends Virtual 21 NTC on March 23 to 25. Many of their smart speakers will be guests on nonprofit radio over the next months. Amy is N ten’s CEO and our social media and Technology contributor. On Tony’s Take two podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Here is domestic terrorism and your non profit. It’s my pleasure to first welcome Mickey D’s I. Mickey and I are co hosting this week’s show. His podcast is non profit snap cast. He invented the nonprofit snapshot, a micro assessment and dashboard for nonprofits. His past includes work at IBM Tech Bridge and Southern Crescent. Habitat for Humanity. Mickey is at NP Snapshot and the company is at nonprofit snapshot dot org. Mickey. It’s a pleasure to co host with you. Welcome. Thank

[00:02:25.39] spk_4:
you, tony. Glad to be here today.

[00:03:30.24] spk_1:
Absolutely. Thank you for coming up with this idea. Thank you. It was a team effort. That was good. It was your idea. I adopted it immediately. I’ll give you that. But it was your I was very I jumped on it. But it was your idea originally, right. Heidi Beirich, also with us. She is co founder and chief strategy officer at Global Project Against Hate and Extremism. She’s an expert on American and European extremist movements, including white supremacy, nativism, anti Semitism and anti government movements. She has appeared repeatedly on major television networks and in documentaries and radio programs and now a podcasts exploring extremism. Had he led the Southern Poverty Law Center’s intelligence project, the premier organization tracking hate and anti government movements in the United States, she’s at Haiti. Barrick, B E I. R I, C. H. And her organization is at global extremism dot org. Heidi. It’s very good to have you. Thanks for being with me and Mickey.

[00:03:32.94] spk_2:
Oh, I’m thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me

[00:04:03.74] spk_1:
a pleasure. And Peter Clay Pete Clay has a 25 year career in cybersecurity. He has served as chief information security officer cso for three very different organizations as a consultant to large international financial organizations, including the World Bank and multiple U. S. Federal agencies. He’s founder of cyber ops at Cyber Ops. That’s oh, pz cyber OPC dot com. Pete. Welcome to thank you, Tony and nonprofit Snap guest.

[00:04:11.54] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

[00:04:37.14] spk_1:
Pleasure. Thank you for doing this with us. Hey, I got a first question for you. Um insurrection at the U. S. Capitol Insurrection by Reddit Ear’s against a Wall Street hedge fund. That bet against Gamestop and AMC stock. These two things monumental happened within a month of each other in January and February, Our nonprofits potential targets of insurrection.

[00:06:05.74] spk_2:
I don’t think there’s any question that nonprofits could ultimately be targets in this kind of mob action like you saw in particular off of Reddit related to the Gamestop stocks. Uh, you know, when nonprofits right about advocate about things that folks don’t like, This is probably the most likely way that you’re going to see an attack. Come. And I can just tell you from my years at the Southern Poverty Law Center, my work now at the Global Project Against Hate and extremism. We while I was at SPLC, and now we write a lot about the kinds of people that were involved in the insurrection at the Capitol. And when you do that, you are absolutely going to get harassed. Online. Doxed Online Targeted online. Fake news Produced about you Online. You can have mass hits to your Twitter feed from people attacking you, and, you know, there there are a lot of other things that can happen, including attempts to, you know, disrupt your Web services. Attack your payment systems so it’s more serious than just somebody saying you know that I’m a communist liberal and and should die, right? They can actually attack the systems that the nonprofit relies on to function. And there are real world effects because sometimes there is a need for security in real life, as if these things become threatening enough. And and it can include up to death threats, which we received many, many times, especially while I was at the Southern Poverty Law Center.

[00:06:45.84] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, it’s incredible. And you’re right. The physical attacks could be physical. That could be virtual. That could be reputational. Uh, and I want to broaden it to I I think I want folks to realize that it doesn’t have to be that you’re doing controversial work like you are, you know, fighting extremism and nationalism. White supremacy. Um, I mean, it could just be something that a group or even a person just doesn’t like. Like you could just you could be doing environmental work. Or you could be you could be feeding the homeless, and somebody in your community feels that your your efforts are your your work is worthless and and should be devoted to something that that that that that person thinks is important. It doesn’t even have to be controversial. Like like gun violence or gun control or or planned Parenthood or something, right? I mean,

[00:08:00.04] spk_2:
no, I think that’s exactly right. I mean, nowadays, with this technology at your fingertips, right, the ability to zoom bomb people, you know, send them direct, hateful, direct messages reply to tweets online that any person really can have access to this and and engage in it so quickly. Before you could even report it right to like a Twitter or Facebook, anybody could be maligned this way. Also, it’s very easy to put up fake websites, right, That targets someone with a bunch of falsehoods. You could you know, a YouTube video can go up in seconds or on TIKTOK. So, yeah, anybody who doesn’t like what you’re doing And I suppose this would apply to corporations and all kinds of things has at their fingertips the ability to to smear you, smear your work, you know, liable You all kinds of and threaten you. So that’s right. You don’t even have to be doing something controversial. If one person or a group of people like you saw with the coordinated activities off of Reddit. Decide you’re their target. Well, this is very easy to do to somebody.

[00:08:21.84] spk_1:
Yeah, and the one person we can look at Walmart, Walmart in El Paso. The synagogue in Pittsburgh. Um, other examples, Uh, the black church, the black church. Mass murder in South Carolina. All individual individual actors. Um, Mickey, I want to turn over to you. What? What do you What do you want to do? What do you want to ask? Well,

[00:08:43.14] spk_4:
I have a number of questions, actually. But let’s listen, I’m trying to actually narrow it down to one. Um, and I don’t know who exactly to address this too, because I think it applies to both Heidi in your experience, Um, that the two questions that I kind of wanted to touch on briefly are, uh do you have any quick insights and to into what leads people to extremist behaviors? And, um, is there a way to to separate and quantify the odds of real life crime versus cybercrime?

[00:10:52.64] spk_2:
Those are good tough questions, Vicky, Uh, honestly, we don’t really have great research on what causes one person to become an extremist who is exposed to a whole bunch of terrible ideas and somebody else doesn’t necessarily go down that path. You know, Tony just mentioned the attacks in Pittsburgh and in El Paso and in Charleston. In those cases, each of those individuals had imbibed a bunch of white supremacist ideas. That’s what led to them to commit those attacks. But those particular ideas, sadly, are rampant across a lot of different social media and websites. So the question becomes, Why Dylann roof in Charleston, right? Why? Why the guy in Pittsburgh? Why does this particular individual snap? You know, there are a lot of theories, especially coming out of the FBI’s behavioral unit, on people who collect grievances, perhaps have domestic violence in their past. Or alternatively, in many cases come from broken families. So they look to white supremacy as a way to sort of replace that in a way that’s similar to maybe kids joining gangs, right kids of color. But it’s the data is not very sophisticated, and we don’t know a lot about it, And this is part of the reason why the federal government looks like it’s going to be pouring some serious money into research on this front so we can tease these things out better. Uh, and there’s a lot of work that needs to be done with, you know, big online data sets to try to figure out what are the triggers. Look, the one thing we know is that in the last few years, the ranks of white supremacists have grown, and the age of the people joining them has been falling. So very young, particularly white males are getting sucked into this universe. And so, you know, there’s something about the online thing that has more of an impact than when you used to experience these ideas out in the real world. There’s something going on there that’s particularly dangerous. Okay, Mickey. Now I’ve have forgotten what your second question was. Can you tell me again?

[00:10:58.90] spk_1:
I do that all the time. I’m so glad to questions like, write it down or I have to do the exact same thing. What was the other part?

[00:11:11.94] spk_4:
The other part is, um, is there a separation? Can you measure the fractions between real life in person? Crime versus cybercrime?

[00:11:16.34] spk_2:
Uh, what motivates it is that we,

[00:11:18.53] spk_4:
uh, frequency of incidents.

[00:11:21.44] spk_2:
Oh, gosh. I mean,

[00:11:23.06] spk_4:
that’s kind of redundant, but

[00:12:44.64] spk_2:
Well, I mean, the big thing that I spent time studying is how the online moves to the offline. Right? So how is it that it triggers domestic terrorist attacks? Basically, And so we’ve already mentioned a few of the big ones here. We can also talk about Christchurch, New Zealand attacks. There were two attacks, uh, in Germany in the last year, driven by white supremacy. I mean, the one thing I can tell you we know is there’s a particular type of propaganda. It’s called the Great Replacement. What it argues is that white people are being genocide in their home countries. I know this sounds lunatic, but this is what these people believe and being replaced by Muslims, immigrants, non white folks, often Jews are blamed for orchestrating this whole business. That particular ideology has motivated a ton of terrorist attacks. So we know that. But, you know, we could say the same thing about Cunanan, right? This cookie conspiracy about Democrats involved in child sex trafficking, no basis in reality didn’t exist five years ago, and last year, the FBI labeled that particular conspiracy theory as violence inducing, and we saw a lot of cute non supporters at the Capitol on January 6 during the insurgency there. So we know something’s trigger more violence than other things. But again, I think all of this requires a lot more research. And, you know, we’ve only had this social media capability for a very short period of time. So it’s not surprising that we’re kind of behind the eight ball and figuring all of this out.

[00:13:10.84] spk_1:
Heidi, I want to follow up with you on, uh, acceleration ism and what that’s about. But let’s bring Pete Clay in. Pete. What? What worries you on the on the cyber side? I mean, I’m not sure nonprofits are properly invested in cybersecurity thinking about it. Uh, have a plan. What? What? What concerns you on the around Nonprofits and and cyber

[00:16:55.54] spk_0:
tony. Let’s let’s keep it focused. First of all, on on Heidi, right? I Heidi. I live 10 miles outside of Charlottesville, Virginia. Um, so I kind of understand, um, and it’s fascinating to me because exacerbating that is, one person can appear to be 10,000 right online. And so when you start to look at what accelerates in these groups, you know, it’s there’s There’s several fascinating studies that were done about the early days of Wikileaks, where it looked like there were tens, hundreds and thousands of people that were working on Wikileaks and it was two guys, right? And the same thing with these movements and one of the attractions of the movement is I’m with people that think like I do. You don’t know if it’s one person or 10 people or 1000 people, right? It’s just people that think like I do, So all of those things and and highly, you know, Please protect yourself. You know how to do it. But protect yourself online, right? Because what we’ve seen and I’ve gotten pulled into several of the conversations here locally, people long after Charlottesville were over. We’re getting doxed and having fake news done. And as the trials played out locally and the Antifa supporters would show up at the trials, is this stuff just kept going on for years here? And so it’s so important to understand, Even before you talk about organizational protection, it’s so important to understand how to protect yourself, right, and it and it really starts from a personal protection standpoint of understanding that basically everything that you do online is tracked somewhere by someone. And and if that sounds really big brother ish, I don’t mean to alarm people. But, you know, I was just reading an article a little bit earlier today that says, now that two thirds of all emails have, um, tracking software tracking pixels built into them so they know when they were open. They know how long somebody looked at them. They know where the I P address was and all of those sorts of things. And so for anybody in Heidi’s line of work, it’s so incredibly important to practice good information, security protection because, first of all, the work that she’s doing is so incredibly important. But then, second of all, just to protect herself from online hysteria and nonsense turning into real world threat. And so all of those things can apply to, particularly for for nonprofits that engage in in Let’s call them that the anti hate approached to the world. If you’re going to annoy somebody, you have to have more than just antivirus and, you know, a cousin Bob that kind of does something for somebody, um, to kind of protect you because it is so simple. The vast majority of attacks today are automated attacks that somebody launched days ago. They may not even be pointed at you, but because you have a weakness they can exploit, they’ll run the attack through automatically. They’ll pull the information and then figure out what to do with it and how to monetize it later. And that goes for individuals or small nonprofits or big companies. So all of those things kind of kind of come into this one space together,

[00:17:27.74] spk_1:
so you need to have protections built. I mean, you need to have someone in your organization focused on this, Um, and again, it’s not just it’s not only the, you know, the folks doing important work like Heidi is doing. I mean, it could be an organization that’s to any to 99 a half percent of us would be just mundane work helping in the community. But somebody in the community doesn’t like it.

[00:17:30.54] spk_0:
Well, big, big,

[00:17:32.05] spk_1:
the potential threat is broad.

[00:18:00.24] spk_0:
The potential threat is huge, because again, what Heidi is doing in and Heidi, I I’m not trying to use you as an object lesson, but but you are a lightning rod in this sense. Right? Because the vast majority of non profits aren’t going to be specifically targeted. It doesn’t. You don’t have to annoy anybody to be the victim of a cyber attack. You just have to have the wrong configuration in place to be the victim of the cyber attack.

[00:18:30.44] spk_4:
It may make sense to describe exactly the difference between an opportunistic cyber crime versus a targeted cyber crime. You know, we’re Pete. If I’m not mistaken, you’re talking about someone who is basically just pinging tons of i ps to figure out where the vulnerabilities are, and then they can come back later and exploit them versus an activist or an extremist out there who is specifically targeting an entity that they don’t like in order to damage their system or to take their money or something like that There. Is there a difference between the way those two things are perpetrated,

[00:18:49.14] spk_0:
tony, Mickey, and again decide right there, man, I’m just going to use that. I’ve been decide right there. Um, I can scan the entire Internet every connected device on the internet for vulnerability in 45 minutes from the desktop that I’m sitting at

[00:18:59.44] spk_1:

[00:22:48.24] spk_0:
right? Yeah, Anybody can you can. Any of us can write every 45 minutes? What that means is if I have knowledge and can do some very, very simple things. And in fact, you can actually buy kits for ranging from a couple $100 for not very good, one to a couple of $1000 for some pretty good ones that will actually take the information from that scanning and plug it into and just automate an attack that just works 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. And it just runs continuously. It’s completely non personal. If you have this vulnerability that it can exploit, it will exploit it, bring the information back and do whatever it’s going to be done with it, right? That’s a very different thing. Then when you see somebody you know the Southern Poverty Law Center. Um, I was doing some research about 10 years ago, and the Southern Poverty Law Center website was one of the top 15 most attacked websites on the entire Internet, and it was continuous. It was a continuous barrage. It was a continuous everything Yeah, that’s got those automated attacks in there. But it’s far more dangerous because people that understand how to break into systems are actively trying to take the information that they get from the Southern Poverty Law Center or from a website that they don’t like. And they’re actively using it to try to break in, to deface the website, to change messaging on the website, to get inside the system, to exploit um, sensitive information. And so all of those things are happening on an ongoing basis and where the cybersecurity markets have not done a good job is there are way too many products that are being sold out there as just buy our stuff and don’t you don’t have to worry about this anymore. There is no product in the world that actually that’s a true statement, for you have to take multiple products and kind of put them in the right position with the right architecture to be able to protect yourself. There are some that can cut a lot of risk, a good firewall. It’s almost worth its weight in gold if it’s properly configured and monitored, because the other thing that we see all the time is when we go in and we look after these great big data breaches, you can almost right. It’s almost like a metronome at this point. Such and such company had a data breach. I don’t know what happened here, the suspects that possibly broke into it because we all want to think some nation states actually breaking into everything when most of the time it’s honestly, something like one of those automated attacks that did something. Oh, the alerts all went off. Nobody responded to the alert. If your fire alarm goes off and you don’t respond to the fire alarm, it’s kind of on you at that point, right? So what’s really critical in cyber security is not just buying some products, but it’s having people that are at least understand how to respond to the alert and are responsible for protecting the organization. As it stands. It also gets a lot more complex because a lot of those services that Heidi talked about earlier are hosted and served by a different company, and you have to understand where their security stops and where your security has to begin.

[00:23:21.34] spk_1:
Pete, what kind of person is a nonprofit looking for, uh, I know the listeners to nonprofit radio, and I imagine that’s true for Mickey Show as well. Non profit snap cast. You know, there’s small shops they’re not going to have A. They may not even have a director of information technology, let alone. They’re certainly not going to have a chief information security officer. What are they? What are they searching for? What kind of expert are they looking for to to help, to advise them.

[00:25:19.74] spk_0:
So what they’re looking for is, First of all, one of the fastest growing areas right now in cybersecurity is for the first time in my 25 year career, cybersecurity experts are starting to show up on boards of directors, right either as advisers to boards or as board members themselves, because it’s considered to be critical. This is happening in the Fortune 500 as well as for much smaller companies. The second thing is to sit down and talk to your managed service provider. If you don’t have any of your it done in house, talk to the people that are providing your manage your manage security. If there are managed service provider, if they’re providing your your laptops and your endpoints. Chances are they’ve got some stuff that they can help you with at that particular point. What we found and the gap that we’re really filling in that market is we take big company information. I don’t want to turn it into a commercial. We take big company, enterprise level cybersecurity capabilities, and we deliver those two small companies at a very effective price. And so we are trying to make it as simple as possible for people to do the right thing. But before you go hire anybody before you go do anything, there is one thing that you can do that will take a ton of risk out. And that is train your people in cybersecurity. There’s a ton of stuff on YouTube. There’s a ton of free training out there and point after point after point. Before you buy firewalls and anti virus and endpoint protection and all of this stuff. Train your people because training your people has the most positive impact on reducing your cybersecurity risk that you can possibly imagine.

[00:26:13.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications outlets like The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch and The Chronicle of Philanthropy. Do you want to be in places like that? Do you want them talking to you and quoting You turn to has the relationships with outlets like these and others. So when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy or something related to the work, you do the call turn to turn to, we’ll call you turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to domestic terrorism and your non profit. Mickey, you got you got something I don’t want to.

[00:26:14.94] spk_4:
Yeah, no, that’s cool. I want to ask Heidi again. There’s there’s a number of questions I think I want to ask you that sort of hinge upon. How did you get into this area of interest? How what inspired you to to get into, uh, intelligence of this of this nature?

[00:30:18.24] spk_2:
Sure. Let me just say something about what Pete just said on the training your people. I got to tell you that, uh, especially especially when I was at SPLC. That’s where we found a lot of the major attacks coming in. Like in other words, if people hadn’t been known, don’t click on this thing. Don’t go open this thing, Don’t do this thing. It’s like we would have just been opening ourselves up to. And you’re right, these many, many attacks that that we were constantly sustaining. So I’m just I’m reminding myself of all the little trainings that made me do there and actually, how smart it was, even though I might have been annoyed by them at the time. Okay, Mickey, how did I get into this? Uh, it wasn’t entirely planned. I was working on a PhD. I’ve been studying fascist movements in Europe for a really long time and in Latin America, and I actually I was at Purdue University, and I thought I was going to become a professor and in my sort of job hunt that first year, um, I ended up for a bunch of not interesting circumstances taking an internship at the SPLC. And, uh and so I was I literally, during my time there, I did every single job in the department that I was in, right? Started as an intern, then was a staff writer, you know, up, up and up. And what I found when I went to work there is First of all, I’d always had this, uh, you know, visceral dislike of fascist movements, of white supremacy of what it does to people, perverts, democracies. You know, Obviously it’s one of the worst ideas ever come up by humankind, and and I found the fact that I was in doing activist work. In other words, I was there to expose these groups right about them. Let the public know about the law enforcement, know about them. And if I could do something to tamp down their activities, I found that just so much more satisfying than writing academic publications. That may have been important but didn’t have that kind of real world impact. So I sort of got hooked on. You know what good non profit student, no matter what they’re into, which is impact right? Whether that’s feeding people or housing people or it’s trying to, you know, break up white supremacy is a threat. Two Americans, in this case at SPLC. So that’s what really hooked me on it. And because I had a lot of background on these kinds of people, these movements, these groups, it was easy for me to hit the ground running and and and that’s why I stayed. I mean, I just It was that satisfaction of knowing Okay, we’ve just written an expose on this really vile group that celebrates the Confederacy, is growing at a very fast clip. This is slowing down their membership drives or we have found information on criminal activity by a particular group, and we’ve handed it off to law enforcement and they’re going to take care of it. And that means fewer domestic terror incidents or hate crimes or whatever the case might be down the road. And the other thing, that was really interesting about it. And I should say the Anti Defamation League does a lot of this similar kind of work. There are other groups that do. It was that at that time, So I got to the law center in 1999 in 2001, of course, where the horrible terrorist attacks 9 11. At that time, people weren’t really watching white supremacy and it was metastasizing and growing as we all focus, understandably so on the threat coming from, you know, the Middle East and Al Qaeda and so on. And and I think back to that time And I think if the splc and the HDL and some others weren’t doing that work, we would have known nothing about it. I mean, there would have literally been nobody paying attention to these movements at that time, and that would have been an absolute tragedy. So, you know, I’m really proud of having been able to do that work and keep doing that work now. But it was the impact part, the ability to make something happen that would make life easier on others. That really kept me and kept me in the game.

[00:30:31.34] spk_4:
The reason I ask is, you know, coming from my own background in mental health, we learn early on that if you’re in a position to be touching the darker side of human nature, the shadow side, as some people call it with any sense of regularity, then that is a good recipe for burnout. Unless you know how to really deal with that, you’re in a position to see the same thing on a societal level. How did you not burn out?

[00:32:05.34] spk_2:
Well, I took. I did take a lot of vacations, will admit, and sometimes you just have to take a break from the material. I mean, for some people, it’s harder than for other people. Right when you’re watching racist material all day long or anti Semitism, whatever the horrible thing, maybe it can. It can get to you. I will say that once. I made the decision last fall to, uh, leave the center and start this new organization to focus on transnational white supremacy is what? Which is what it is. Um, I took, like, four months off. I mean, I just It was it had been I felt like I’ve been running a marathon in particular since Donald Trump ran for office in 2015, and I did take a chunk of time off, and it’s a legitimate thing. I mean, I think a lot of organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center and others who monitor this information are starting to realize that maybe this isn’t something you should be doing 40 hours a week, right? The key to have breaks, you need to have access to therapy if you need it, and that it would be good to spend some of your time working on something positive, right? As opposed to viewing negative things all all the time I’ve actually heard questions I’ve had a lot of people ask me, Um, like, for example, there’s an organization called Hope Not Hate in the UK that tracks the same kind of extremism over there. And we’ve all had conversations in the last year saying, Well, what is it that you do for your staff, right? How do you protect your staff? How do you make sure it’s It’s, you know, sustainable, that you don’t want burnout? So it’s It’s really important, Mickey. And honestly, it’s a conversation that I never heard the first decade, decade and a half that I was doing this work. It’s as though the issue didn’t exist, right? Or at least in this sector, it didn’t exist. And now I’m glad that it has talked about

[00:32:28.14] spk_4:
right well, and you let up exactly to the point that I was hoping you’d make, which was at least we kind of touched on it. You know, the acknowledging that the burnout is there, but being burnt out can make you a little more vulnerable

[00:32:34.66] spk_2:
to harm,

[00:32:46.64] spk_4:
especially if you’re in a little a personal position where your your actual physical safety is on the line because I think it does. I think it dulls your awareness, and I think it makes you a little bit careless in the way that you might conduct yourself and I don’t know, correct me. If I’m wrong, I could be completely

[00:33:45.84] spk_2:
off base with that. No, I think that’s right. I mean, I don’t think there’s been enough sort of thinking about what the impact is of being exposed to this. What’s interesting is that you’re now seeing it. For moderators on the big social media sites, right? There was a big lawsuit announced yesterday by Facebook moderators, who feel that they’ve suffered considerable harms. Now they unlike what my experience was. They don’t get the positive experience to know that what they’re doing is probably helping people right there. Just looking at heinous material of all kinds, right involving Children is not just about hate material and taking it down and not really maybe getting the satisfaction of feeling like it’s achieving something, but But we just haven’t talked about it enough. There’s probably a callousness that gets, you know, it probably reduces your empathy and sympathy in many ways, so there’s a lot of side effects that we need to know more about, Especially when it comes to really gross content. And and there’s a lot of parts of the world where you know, nowadays and nonprofits you’re seeing that stuff. Even if that’s not what you’re monitoring, you may be subjected to it.

[00:35:13.84] spk_1:
Right? I d I experienced something like that myself in the I guess in the in the days when Richard Spencer and white supremacy were more talked about than they are now, Um, what was that like, I guess 2017 2018. Something like that. I started listening to a podcast called The Daily Show. Uh, what you say? Yeah. Yeah, the show. Uh, nobody knows. There are very few people know there’s the show is the Hebrew word for holiday for the Holocaust. So it the name of the show is the daily Holocaust. And and I wanted to get to know you know what? These people what do they talk about? How do they rationalize their thinking? What do they who Who are these folks besides Richard Spencer and and I after, um, I guess I binge listen for, like, a weekend or something, but I had to I had to put it down for a for a couple of weeks because it’s it’s so hateful and hurtful. Um, I experienced that. Personally, I I as much as I was still curious and I did go back to it. But, you know, like you’re saying, you know, you took a four month break. Your work is a lot more intense than mine. But just on my little microcosmic way, listening to one podcast for a bunch of ours, I couldn’t take it any longer, Had to put it away for a couple of weeks. Uh,

[00:36:09.13] spk_2:
I had a colleague. I have a colleague, not not name to be mentioned who have suffered some serious post traumatic stress. After watching, you might remember the Christchurch attacks at the two mosques where 51 people were killed were run on Facebook live, right? The guy livestream this and I have a friend who was, of course, we were monitoring these attacks as they were happening right at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and he told me for weeks and weeks after because we watched the video multiple times right to figure out what we could see what’s going on here, where they’re more Attackers, etcetera, etcetera. He said he was having nightmares. I mean, it really deeply, deeply affected him, which we shouldn’t be surprised by, right? I mean, and there’s probably I mean, I think about the victims and some of these attacks or the populations who are targeted by them. What that must feel like I can’t even imagine. Mm.

[00:36:22.93] spk_1:
Let’s go back to the to the nonprofit threat. I I did want to ask you about acceleration ism what, what, what that movement is and and how that could potentially be a threat to to the nonprofit order,

[00:38:27.22] spk_2:
well, acceleration ists who are typically neo Nazis. There’s a couple of big groups that people may have heard of the base. That’s the English translation for Al Qaeda. Actually, you know they’re Nazis, Autumn wife in which is a group named that means atomic weapons in German. What’s the What’s problematic about these groups in particular? Is that what they mean when they say they’re acceleration? Ists is their goal is to accelerate the end of democracies or social systems or social orders. They want to actually blow them up, rip them down, destroy them, replace them with, you know something neo fascist or whatever They’re fancy. They’re dark fantasies might be. And they’re involved in a ton of violence. A ton of violence had dozens of them arrested for plots involving murder, attempted murders, murders, killings. I mean, it’s really, really bad stuff. If you get in the if you end up in the sights of somebody like that, Um, you know it, it’s going to cost you. I mean, and the and the and the These are online movements. I mean, one thing I’m thinking about when Pete was talking about being targeted. These are not numb schools when it comes to Web technologies. These are people who are early adopters. They understand their messaging has to get out online. They know how to use tools and all kinds of things to affect the work of nonprofits and others who they don’t like. They dislike everybody that they perceive to be on the left, right. So this isn’t just about doing anti hate work. It could be any kind of entity that’s doing what I would consider social justice work or or, you know, work for the public good, especially if you’re something like black lives matters. You could easily be a target of these people, and they’re and they’re pretty scary. Um, you know, probably one of the ugliest websites in the country. It’s kind of they advertise. The Daily Show is called Daily Stormer, Right, named after a Nazi newspaper. Their Web master is on the run, living in Transnistria, part kind of an unregulated part of Moldova. And he runs a bunch of American websites, and he orchestrated attacks where he took over fax machines in universities around the world and put out anti Semitic propaganda. This guy’s clever. He’s clever, and he’s probably capable of doing just about anything. If he sets his mind to it online,

[00:38:44.12] spk_1:
we should we should go back to, you

[00:38:46.38] spk_0:
know, you shouldn’t what Heidi is talking

[00:38:49.65] spk_1:
about. You

[00:38:51.10] spk_0:
know, I tony, I appreciate it, man. I really do.

[00:38:57.72] spk_1:
It’s important for groups to know that, you know, they got to protect themselves online and how to do it.

[00:41:22.31] spk_0:
Yeah, but I’m also telling you that the map over my back right there, right is Oxford University. I spent my junior year there, Right. Um, my fascination was Germany 1923. Where did all this stuff starts and you know, also as a transplanted, grew up overseas and grew up other places. And so when we moved to the American South kind of adopted the whole mythology of the Confederacy and states’ rights, Not the slavery part of it, but the whole mythology of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson and all the rest of that. And I’m such a history freak. I won all of those arguments for 30 years, right? It was all about states’ rights. It was all about this stuff. And I ran into a You have a professor and over the course of about a three hour meal just got totally demolished in every argument that I made. And so it’s a fascinating concept that suddenly we have the Confederacy, which morphed in about 18 90 because they basically rewrote it in the Arthurian legend, right? Which is what we all learned in high school and college growing up. But now it’s been grafted onto nothing but pure Nazism, right? Moving forward and how that happened and and how that’s happening online, I think is it is at uh huh. Actually, one of the great stories of the data the military been talking to friends. They can’t tell the difference between the recruitment techniques used by Isis and used by Al Qaeda and used by by the white supremacists. The techniques are exactly the same with the same result. So what? Heidi? Heidi, I got your back. I’ll protect your organization wherever it is. You just got to tell me what you need. I got you. Okay, that’s that’s not the problem. Um, please don’t include that in in in the piece. But I’m just saying there’s no more important. This is what’s going to determine the outcome of our democracy in the next 2025 years.

[00:42:25.40] spk_4:
That’s it. If I can. If I can steer us back to some practical things that nonprofits can do to contend with this, you know, we’ve we’ve we’ve sort of been dancing around the issue of awareness of the magnitude of the problem and the various things that nonprofits might experience. Uh, Pete and I did a really excellent, uh, short snap cast episode on doing cyber security on a budget, so I don’t want to rehash that, but maybe it does make sense to sort of touch on some basic things with, uh, you know if we’re if we’re talking about nonprofits, that probably the vast majority of non profits are not going to be specifically targeted for their work of their ideology. Uh, probably the vast majority of non profits might become a victim of opportunistic crime. Um, but is the is the effort to defend themselves Are the steps that those nonprofits can take the same.

[00:46:22.78] spk_0:
The steps are the same. Now, Heidi, this is the part where you need to tune out. Not listening because you’ve got a different set of a different. You’ve got a different risk profile, Shall we say to use that term of art? Okay. But we can take care of you to we’ve got you covered. Um, first of all, figure out what is the least amount of it you can use to do your job and do it well and do it effectively. Right? So if you don’t have to turn everything on with your machines, the idea is is what is the minimum I can use because of the less you use, the fewer of those automated attacks you’re going to get hit with. Okay, The second piece of it is passwords aren’t terribly useful anymore. Okay? We used to think we used to be really, really silly people and we would run around and tell people You have to have a 12 character password with upper and lower case and special characters and all the rest of the stuff, and you have to change it between every 45 90 days and all the rest of that stuff and what we realized was we drove people insane and they quit listening to information security. People like me talk because we were snatching their lives away from them. What the bad guys were doing was they were capturing those password files and just replaying the entire hash. They don’t even decrypt them anymore. So you need to have two factor authentication for your bank account and for any of your communications, right? Any of your personal communication because that’s where those risks are. And if you’re multi factor authentication, in some cases now with really good stuff can be biometric where you type in your password, and then they just use the biometrics on your phone or whatever other devices out there, or cameras and everything else, and we’re seeing huge leaps forward in that stuff movement going on. Finally, you have to get past the idea of thinking that hackers are these hoodie wearing geniuses that can get into anything at any point at any time in the world, Right? There are people that work for nation states that what they do looks like magic, right? They’re all backed by huge research departments and huge capabilities that it takes a nation state to do that level of research. This stuff that’s come out about the solar winds attacks for the last in the last couple days. Make no mistake. Yes, they may have found a very simple password that an intern left years and years and years ago. By the way, that’s the most terminally stupid excuse ever given by a CEO for losing a major hack. Right? Let’s blame the intern. Um, but the guys that did that attack and the ramifications of it were backed by literally hundreds, if not thousands, of very highly trained engineers. Those guys are typically not coming after you unless you’re Heidi. If you’re Heidi, they may be coming after you. Um, but if you use multi factor authentication and you use and you patch your machines and you use good any virus and things like that. Do those things that are available to you. You’re going to stop the vast majority of those attacks. And then the way you deal with those attacks that just standard tools aren’t going to stop is you become what’s called resilience. Okay, resilience. Which means I have good backups of my system. You want to take over my laptop? Great, erase everything. Restore from backup. I’m back up and running in a couple hours. You haven’t stopped me. Okay? And that’s those are the important steps for any any, um, non profit out there to to kind of put together and to really think about.

[00:46:31.48] spk_1:
That’s cool. Pete, I’m not taking out the part where you pledge to have Heidi’s back. Your the information security guy with the heart. How can I take that out?

[00:46:47.68] spk_0:
Uh, I’m just telling you, I I got it. I got to meet one of my heroes today, and I didn’t even know Heidi’s name it. I’m dead serious. It’s, uh it is critical

[00:46:49.97] spk_1:
evidence of humanity. We’re not cutting that

[00:46:51.77] spk_0:
out. I’m a cybersecurity guy. I’m not human. We need to bite your tongue.

[00:47:01.98] spk_1:
You know all the evidence we can get for humanity. So, No, I think

[00:47:03.87] spk_4:
you’re right. I think Pete has the vapors, and we need to keep that in. Okay.

[00:47:08.27] spk_0:
No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, it’s appreciate you got a fan and a follower. Um, and and dead serious. If you need help, just reach out. We got your back. Okay, Um,

[00:47:22.98] spk_1:
it’s just but, uh,

[00:47:29.48] spk_0:
it’s hiding my only challenges. I know how they do it. So it’s really hard for me not to do it to them.

[00:47:33.18] spk_1:
That’s vindictive. Wow. He’s got a heart. But he’s vindictive. Double hedge, hedge

[00:47:42.32] spk_2:
effective. Not predictive,

[00:47:44.01] spk_1:
right. Friends stay friends with him. I

[00:48:04.77] spk_4:
have I have one quick question for Heidi, though. I mean, we’ve we’ve sort of talked about a ton of cybercrime and how to prepare for it and deal with that. But what if you become the target of of in life offline physical violence? How does a nonprofit decide to decide that their risk for that is significant enough that they should do something about it, and then what should they do about it?

[00:50:28.36] spk_2:
Okay, well, I’m not the expert at where the threshold exists. But I can tell you that when I was at the SPLC, there were a handful of people who were the targets because we were sort of the faces of the organization, right? Anybody who was doing media would be in that position, including my colleagues who are still there right now, right that are doing media against these kinds of folks. We brought in outside security experts with our security team to take a look at the volume of threats and the level of threats they spend a lot of time looking at, sort of almost like when you hear the chatter and Al Qaeda is increasing right and that would be a time when there might be a possible terrorist attack. You know, you hear the government say that we looked at those same sorts of trends and we had a very close relationship with the FBI field office in Montgomery, Alabama, and where other offices were so that we were constantly sending in threats and material and and we had very good protocols around bomb threats and other kinds of threats. These were just we had to train people just like he was talking about about protecting yourself with all this stuff online. There were trainings that were required for that. And if if somebody was, you know, very prominent, maybe this is a lawyer in a case right against a hate group, and so their faces plastered everywhere at a particular time. And the chatter was growing up. Going up. There were times when we actually had to put physical security on people as a measure. But I wasn’t really the expert who decided where that threshold was, but it was a proactive thing to do. And I think anybody who’s involved in activities that are seen as controversial or hated by a group of people, you know, I don’t know if it’s right, left or center. I don’t care where you’re coming from, but if you’re in that kind of basket where you’re going to, you’re going to face those kinds of threats. You really have to think about that physical security and there are differences between material posted online that’s demeaning or ugly or vile and what is a direct threat, and you have to really keep your eye on that. Like I remember at one point I got mailings at my home in Montgomery from Klansmen that were very cryptic and weird. That was a far more serious situation than people, you know, saying mean things about me on, you know, on Twitter. So you know, those are all. But I would say, you know, you need to talk to security professionals or at least local law enforcement, have a good relationship with local law enforcement. Um, if you’re doing work that could could lead to offline harms basically.

[00:50:32.86] spk_4:
So I should invite my beat cops over for breakfast every once in a

[00:50:36.53] spk_1:
while. I was going to ask about not only local, but FBI or Department of Homeland Security. I mean, on your depending on your visibility.

[00:51:59.26] spk_2:
Well, FBI is probably your best bet when it comes to threats in the world that I was in, because it’s also their responsibility to take care of domestic terrorism and extremism and whatnot. Right? So they had a knowledge like the local sack knew, knew a lot about the movement. It might be different depending on where you are in the country. We also did you know Well, I still do. Did law enforcement training on extremism, So we had a lot of contacts in federal agencies. We had good access, actually, to the people who knew these movements and understood the threat, which was lucky. But, you know, I’ve known people. I knew some folks were working in immigrants rights in Maryland who got vicious, vicious threats. Um, you know, by people who despise immigrants, despised Latinos and so on. And they didn’t have as good of access. And there were many, many times, many times over the years I’ve been reached out to by groups like that saying, What should I do? And it’s shocking, actually, that people don’t even know that the first thing you should do is pick up the phone, call your local law enforcement, call the FBI and preserve the evidence. It’s amazing how often people delete threatening emails threatening everything direct messages and voicemails. And you should never do that. You’ve got to collect that evidence and you’ve got to let law enforcement know.

[00:52:08.55] spk_1:
Honey, what’s a sack you mentioned? I’ve jargon jail on nonprofit radio. What’s your

[00:52:12.62] spk_2:
special agent in charge? Sort of. The head haunt show in the Montgomery FBI

[00:52:20.45] spk_1:
in a regional office. Special agent charge. Okay. Thank you. all right,

[00:52:21.35] spk_4:
jargon. Jail. That’s interesting.

[00:52:25.65] spk_1:
Yeah, we don’t like jargon. What do you think, Mickey? We tap these tap. These two experts.

[00:52:34.55] spk_4:
Yeah. Uh, you know, I don’t think I want to abuse them anymore. Um, but it’s up to you. I’ll defer to you if you have any other anything you want to touch. I think this has been a really good conversation.

[00:53:12.85] spk_1:
I think we I think we covered it. I think they covered it. Um, I’ll let you take us out. I just want to remind folks that they are Heidi. By Rick. She’s at High Heidi Barrick and her organization is at global extremism dot org. And Pete Clay, the chief information security officer who’s who’s a human being, has a heart. You’ll find his company at cyber ops dot com. Cyber oh, pz dot com. And so I want to thank Heidi and Pete and Mickey. Thank you very much again for thinking of this. Let you take us out.

[00:53:18.05] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony. It’s been a pleasure to work with you on this episode. Uh, that is tony-martignetti non profit radio, and I am Mickey. Decide with the nonprofit snap cast. Thank you for being our audience today. We’ll see you with another episode soon. Be safe.

[00:55:33.64] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s Take two. The podcast. Pleasantries Sometimes I’ve slipped up. I used to call podcast Podcast Pleasantries. The podcast Pleasantries are going out. They are. And they went out last week and they’re going out again. So So there you go. I’m grateful. I’m grateful that you listen to the show. I know the show helps you. I get emails saying I’m a board member. We listen, I listen, we talk about the stuff at our board meetings, I send it to the CEO. I get emails from C. E. O s saying they’re having their board members. Listen, I know it’s helping you fundraisers as well. Board members, consultants. I know we’ve got a smattering of consultant listeners. I’m grateful. I’m grateful that you’re listening, and I’m gratified that nonprofit radio helps you do your work. You’re bringing it to your CEO. You’re bringing it to your board. That’s terrific. It’s just raising conversations, right? Ideas, conversations and maybe often, I hope, action items. I’m glad. I’m glad. Non profit radio helps you do your work. So pleasantries to you, our podcast listeners that is Tony’s. Take two. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time. Here is 21 NTC. It’s my pleasure to welcome back Amy Sample Ward. You know her? She’s the CEO of N 10 and our social media and technology contributor. Her most recent co authored book is social Change Anytime, everywhere about online multi channel engagement. She’s at Amy R s Ward for Renee and Anton is n 10 dot org. How are you, Amy? Sample words. Good to have you

[00:55:36.04] spk_3:
back. Yeah, it has been a while somehow. I don’t know. Time. Time is an accordion, and

[00:55:42.05] spk_1:
I don’t know how it

[00:55:43.07] spk_3:

[00:55:56.94] spk_1:
Time is that that’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that, but yes, I agree. I do agree. And, uh, yeah, it’s been a few months. It was. I think it was late, late, 2020 when you were last on and we chatted. You doing okay out there in Oregon? In Portland?

[00:55:59.64] spk_3:
Yeah. We are doing okay today. It feels like

[00:56:03.71] spk_1:
today That’s an important qualification. That

[00:57:30.03] spk_3:
today Yeah, they feel like we’ve had from fires to win to ice to pandemic. You know, it’s certainly been, uh, rough and unpredictable Number of months But we are just, you know, just short of the conference being live, and it feels so great. Because last year, of course, we didn’t get to have the conference. Um, but it also feels so weird because normally, uh, you know, we kind of call this the cupcake panic. I think folks who do events may understand this term of you get so close and there’s, like, so much to do and, you know, fun sponsors and committee members are like sending cookies to the office, And you’re just like, Well, I guess I’m eating five cookies right now. Like this is my lunch. I’m just in this time, I’ve got to do everything. And normally we would be doing that in an office filled with, you know, two pallets worth of boxes that we’re shipping up to to send to the conference. And you know, Stafford. Oh, my gosh, I just got through this person who can help me and kind of getting into it with each other. But now, of course, everyone’s just in their home quietly typing away on their computer and feeling like, Gosh, it feels like there’s a whole lot to do. Am I the only one that feels that way because you don’t really get to see each other in the same way. So

[00:57:42.33] spk_1:
all right, so let’s talk about 21 NTC. It’s coming up. Let’s make sure everybody knows the dates. When is it?

[00:57:46.43] spk_3:
It is March 23rd through 25th.

[00:57:48.87] spk_1:
Thank you. So

[00:57:50.02] spk_3:
a Tuesday through Thursday

[00:57:52.83] spk_1:
and we go to n 10 dot org to register

[00:58:06.02] spk_3:
yes and 10 dot org slash ntc is everything you need. Program registration, information about community events, anything you want.

[00:58:17.32] spk_1:
Okay. And 10 dot org Yes. And 10 dot org slash and TCC. Alright, So what are we facing this, uh, in this pandemic Virtual 21 NTC. What are we looking at?

[01:00:35.91] spk_3:
Well, you know, I think, um even though this is our first year doing an entirely virtual NTC, we’re really trying to take the same approach that we’ve taken and I think been known for for the 20 previous years, right, that the NTC is a conference, but it’s not like other conferences you go to, you know, it is it is about community and connection. And you know, the things that make you who you are not only your job title. You know, the lunchtime tables to find other people who like West Wing or, you know, whatever it might be. We’re trying to really design the conference from that as the center. So, um, at an in person, NTC we actually have, you know, had around 125 or more sponsors and exhibitors, and people can engage with them or not. I mean, quite honestly, because it’s in an in person conference. You walk wherever you want to walk, right? Um, and this year we’ve actually limited it to just around 30 because we didn’t want to have to give up so much of that virtual space to sponsors honestly. And that was our one way of thinking. Well, how can we really make this feel like this? Is those community conversations? Of course, technology providers, platform providers, consultants. We still want to register and be part of the conference. But like also join that West Wing conversation. Don’t just feel like you need to talk about the service you provide, or the product you provide, right? So we’ve really focused on the community peace, and there’s, I mean, there’s like different folks limiting meditation sessions Every day there’s live bands every afternoon. There’s all those community conversations, you know, folks that want to connect on different things and still 150 breakout sessions. So, um, and you know that desire we’ve always heard from the community of I wish I could have my clone and go to multiple sessions at once. Well, one benefit of the virtual is all the sessions are alive, but they’ll also be recorded and then on demand. So you can attend one of them live, and then you can can attend the other, like 17 concurrent sessions at your leisure.

[01:00:56.11] spk_1:
You’re okay, so your registration includes attendance at all. The all the recordings that you want to consume.

[01:01:00.32] spk_3:

[01:01:02.51] spk_1:
cool, cool. Cool. Um, NTC Beer is always a big deal. That’s always an event. It’s one night. It’s usually it’s usually the first night.

[01:03:06.10] spk_3:
Yeah, I think it’s usually, um, NTC. Beer is one of the only NTC events that intend staff have nothing to do with planning. Um, community members do that, and it’s usually, I think, the night before the first day, and we actually had a call with the NTC beer organizers. What’s going on with, You know, what does that look like in this virtual space? And, um, you know what? What is encouraging people to have a drink on camera together? You know, it’s very different to attend NTC beer, whether you choose to drink or not, because everyone’s like in one big room together, and it’s like a fun kind of entry way. But in this virtual space, I don’t know that there’s a way to do it. So instead, we’re thinking about just making very clear community members who have come to the conference before so that they can be there to help welcome folks into some of those more community conversations. And one way we’re doing that each morning, before breakout sessions start, there’s going to be a group of community members that are not intense staff, just like chatting, You know, like when you go to a conference and you get your coffee and you haven’t spoken out loud yet and you’re still waking up. But you get to listen to those other people at your table who are already having a conversation. We’re basically just broadcasting that, so there will be, you know, four or five people talking about what’s ahead on the agenda, what they’re looking forward to, what they great tip they heard yesterday in a session. Whatever. That kind of warms you up for the day. So even just moments like that, where we can make clear there’s community members that you can talk to, There’s folks who have been here before, um, and not try and do a direct 1 to 1 to the in person conference because it just felt like it won’t be as good if we’re trying to just compare it to the to the in person style. Okay,

[01:03:42.70] spk_1:
okay. And you start with a lackluster host. Of course. You know, rather than focusing on the sessions are the keynotes and I asked about the first thing I asked you about is NTC beer. So we should talk about the we should. I guess we should talk about the sessions and the key notes. Um, the sessions are gonna be outstanding. Of course I’m gonna be capturing. I’m hoping to get another 30 or 35 as I do as I have for the past six years or so. Um, interviews, which will be a lot easier to do because we don’t have to bunch them into 2.5 days. So

[01:03:43.10] spk_3:
we’re going to We don’t have to do them while we’re tearing down the exhibit hall.

[01:04:01.19] spk_1:
Exactly. The NTC has come down around my last interview a number of times. The lights dim the barrack, the not the barricade the, uh, the drape drape. Things are coming down. Those polls that the drapes are hanging on are coming down. There’s a forklift backing up in the

[01:04:02.94] spk_3:
background. We could recreate those sounds if you want to have to get,

[01:04:38.99] spk_1:
I have to spend a fortune on sound effects. Um, yes. So it has often come down around my last interview, but, um, so we’re not constrained this time, So there’ll be there’ll be easily 30 or maybe 35 interviews of smart NTC folks. So yes, So there’s 150 sessions. Um, let’s make the point that this is not only for technologists, we say this year after year, but you say it more eloquently than I do. This is not only for technology people who have technology on their business card,

[01:05:52.29] spk_3:
right? I mean, we just we’re hitting the 12 month mark on a pandemic that has forced everyone to work from home. So if if the last 12 months have not made the case to you that everyone in your organization uses technology, then I don’t know what could make that case. You know, the NTC is people of every job type every organization type every budget size, you know, and people of all different backgrounds, people that have a computer science master’s degree and people who have never had the opportunity to have that kind of education in any way. So everyone is welcome. And ultimately, I think the thing that makes it really accessible regardless of what your job type is is for the most part. Sessions aren’t trying to tell you. Here’s how to do X, y and Z with some product or some very specific type of project because they’re saying, How do you think about fundraising in an online environment? How do you think about program delivery? You know, using different tools? What does it look like to use mapping technology? They’re really about decision making and creating a plan to do something well with technology, and they’re not about any tool that you might already have at your organization.

[01:06:20.18] spk_1:
Okay. Right. Thank you. So it doesn’t matter whether you, you know, or don’t know drew people from WordPress from Jumla from C plus plus from HTML from https. And, yes, you don’t have to know that it’s a technology for its a conference for technology users as well as technologists who have master’s degree in computer science. Okay.

[01:08:16.27] spk_3:
And this year, I’m also really excited because in addition to getting to have 100 and 50 sessions like we have in the past, we’re having three key notes instead of just one. So, you know, that is maybe great in this virtual world because I don’t know that we could have gotten these three amazing people to all fly on the same, you know, in the same three day window to a location to do three key notes. But maybe now we’ve set the bar for ourselves, and we have to always have three going forward. But, um, there’s information about all these folks up on the site, but I’m sure when I say their names, you know, folks listening will recognize them. Rouhani, Benjamin, uh, wrote the new Jim Code. If you have read that book. If not, I recommend to read it. Nokia Cyril, founder of the Center for Media Justice, and Nicole Hannah Jones, of course 16 19 project from the New York Times. So just incredible people thinking and talking and working at the intersection of technology and media and data and race and equity and justice. And what what is happening when we’re using technology for good, for better, for way, way worse. You know, how are we building our tools to replicate the things we’ve already harmed each other with? And how do we kind of get out of that and use technology in better in different ways, which I think as a whole, you know, the thousands of NTC attendees we have every year? That’s the conversation they’re showing up for right every day in their work, not just at the NTC. So I’m excited for the opportunity to have kind of three different takes on that conversation from these folks. And I think that again will really kind of set the bar for NTC s in the future. Now we’re going to have to have three people every time.

[01:08:54.27] spk_1:
All right? Well, you can compromise somewhere else. Maybe in the future, we can compromise somewhere else. Um, I will confess. I only know Nicole Hannah Jones. Okay? Right now. But she’s a luminary. Uh, when that 16 19 came out in the New York Times, whatever was the magazine? What? I mean, I subscribe online, so I read it, and she’s she’s a luminary. She’s on, she’s on, lots of she’s done. She’s done lots of lots of media. Um, and I’m sure the others are very, very well known as well in their in their field. I just I just know Nicole Hannah Jones. That’s all three. Terrific. Excellent.

[01:09:45.17] spk_3:
Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I think it will be really awesome. And part of building a virtual conference with the community in mind is we’ve We’ve kind of shrunk the number of hours in the day that we’re saying is officially ntc time. Um, back in the in person conference, it was like registration opens at 7. 30 in the morning. You know, today, 30 we’re doing a reception all the way until 5. 30. Then we’re going to some party. You know, it’s like just so many hours, But now, knowing that we’re across time zones knowing that so many participants are going to have other people in their house off of their video right that they are needing to coordinate with in some way for life. And we kind of shrunk the number of hours in the day. And then we’ve also like, each day the keynote is at a different time, so that if folks really can’t join in the morning their

[01:09:58.09] spk_1:

[01:10:47.46] spk_3:
they on a different day, they could join the keynote live, you know. So first day there’s a morning, middle day, there’s a middle, and last day there’s an end of conference keynote. So folks across times and honestly, we are really hoping that folks, you know, unplugged their headphones and kind of turn the computer to their whole family. And, you know, these are conversations you should totally invite your kids in to listen to or your partner or your parents, you know, whoever you live with, um, both for these awesome keynotes. And like I said, at the end of the day, there’s going to be art sessions live bands like sit down for dinner and just, you know, unplug your headphones and let the band play while you have dinner. We really wanted to feel like the NTC

[01:10:48.39] spk_1:
family. It’s a family affair.

[01:10:50.00] spk_3:
Bring your family.

[01:10:51.35] spk_1:
Bring your family for no extra cost. No extra

[01:10:53.57] spk_3:
cost. Exactly.

[01:11:12.66] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. All right. Cool. Um, it’s exciting. Well, all right, the last thing I gotta ask you about this is how can is there was there anyway, would you were able to conceive of any way to replicate the food experience of an in person NTC. That’s such a great all registrants being shipped a food item to share. How could we or it just It just wasn’t possible.

[01:11:50.86] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s such a good question because we did actually talk about it, and I have no part that’s a challenge or that presented. The biggest challenge for us is the food expectations that we share with our partner. And whatever Ben you were working with is, you know, very high percentage of the food is allergen free is, you know, can match various both, like religious or allergy needs all of these things

[01:11:53.14] spk_1:
and you do gluten free, right? So being

[01:12:55.25] spk_3:
able to find, like a packaged product that was packaged and could be shipped and still not be bad, it was like, what would we send, you know, just like dehydrated lettuce or something like, I don’t know what could match everything and be packaged. So instead, we have put together an attendee kit that if you register by early next week, you’ll receive yours before the conference. After that, you’ll still receive one but shifting this on you, who knows when it will arrive? But it’s got, you know, all all kinds of, like, the fun, great, reusable, environmentally friendly kind of swag that you maybe would have picked up in the exhibit hall. And so instead, we’ll ship it to you so you can still join And, you know, hold hold up your stuff with the logo on video, but no food, because that felt like I felt like a real gamble.

[01:13:05.15] spk_1:
I understand. I understand. All right, well, we’ll have to look, we look forward to 2022 because the food is exemplary. So I had exactly absolutely. All right. All right. Um, I think we just leave folks with the u R. L go to n 10 dot org slash ntc, but you just go to n 10 dot org. It’s right on the homepage to its right up top and

[01:13:30.15] spk_3:
registration. I mean, it’s a virtual event. Registration doesn’t have to close before the event, so come on over. We have decided to keep the member rate low and not raise it for late registration. So, pro tip. Just get your membership, which is on a sliding scale of the amount you can pay. And then you get the low conference rate any day.

[01:14:15.04] spk_1:
Okay, Prototype. Thank you. All right. And 10 dot org slash ntc. I endorsed the conference year after year. This is my sixth or seventh, Um, and you’ll hear lots of smart folks from, uh, from the NTC Speaker roster on on nonprofit radio, but attend the conference. I mean, for no other reason. Well, there’s lots of reasons, but part of it is supporting in 10 support the community. It is. It’s a It’s a diverse, supportive, in itself fun community. And that is a type of community that we should be supporting.

[01:14:22.44] spk_3:
Awesome. Thank you, Tony. You are always an amazing supporter.

[01:15:34.24] spk_1:
Plus, you’ll learn a shitload. There’s that. Thank you. All right. My pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you. Amy. Good to talk to you. You’ll find her at Amy at Amy R s Ward. And, of course, n 10 and 10 dot org. But you want to go to intent dot org slash ntc. Thanks, Amy. Good to talk to you. Thanks, tony. Next week. Relationships with Funders by Shavon Richardson If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty, You with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for March 1, 2021: Leadership For Strategic Execution

My Guest:

Joe Pajer: Leadership For Strategic Execution


There’s lots of talk about strategic planning. Lots of time and money devoted to ambitious plans—which often sit on a shelf. It takes leadership to drive strategic execution. What does that leadership look like? Joe Pajer walks us through, with his experience from the corporate sector.



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[00:01:56.64] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d bear the pain of a chroma top CIA if I saw that you missed this week’s show Leadership for Strategic Execution. There’s lots of talk about strategic planning, lots of time and money devoted to ambitious plans, which often sit on a shelf. It takes leadership to drive strategic execution. What does that leadership look like? Joe Pager walks us through with his experience from the corporate sector. Antonis. Take two podcast pleasantries. We’re sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s my pleasure to welcome Joe pager to nonprofit radio. He retired from the corporate CEO office. He grew revenues, profits, customers and employees at three companies for private equity investors. He’s been on the boards of the Pittsburgh Symphony and the Carnegie Museum of Natural History, and in Pittsburgh, it’s Carnegie, not Carnegie. Now he’s a board member for the ST James School in Hagerstown, Maryland, and the Trinity School for ministry in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He was my fraternity pledge trainer at Pi Kappa Alpha at Carnegie Mellon University. Back then, he was zip. You’ll find him on LinkedIn. He’s retired in a board member. Doesn’t need to be anywhere else. Welcome to nonprofit radio zip.

[00:02:01.24] spk_0:
Thanks, tony. Good to have you. Real pleasure. Thank you. Glad to be here. I’m

[00:02:05.74] spk_1:
glad. Tell us. Tell me about this private equity investment firm work. What does that look like?

[00:03:22.24] spk_0:
Sure, that came in the latter half of my career. Before that, I was an executive at larger companies. But you know what private equity is all about? There’s many different models, but the particular group of investors I worked for, um, they by businesses and they grow them, and then they sell right. So, um, typically, we buy it from a founder, right? Someone who founded the business, he was ready to retire and would like to make some money off of the business. And they usually their businesses that these were technology businesses that that we could see tremendous upside to. Right. So we do a lot of searching for those with tremendous upside. You know, founders are good guys, but they often our unit dimensional. So we could add things like professional sales or new strategies, etcetera and or maybe even combine them with other companies and grow them. So that’s what I did for the last 12 to 15 years. Is, um, three different companies sequentially, We bought them. We grew them, as you said in terms of revenue customers, number of people. Um, and then we sold them to larger companies for a nice profit. And it’s very fun, Very fun. You got to walk in every couple of years to a brand new business, try to figure out the market in the business and figure out how to grow it.

[00:03:29.24] spk_1:
So were there, uh, potentials to make money that you’re not sharing with your with your friend tony-martignetti at the time? Was there like insider information? You could have. You could have snuck to me. Was there a way for me to make some money off these three?

[00:03:53.44] spk_0:
All of the information is inside because they’re private companies. So there’s no there’s no public listing of the companies that are strictly privately held, their owned entirely by the investors. So yeah, there was no opportunity for you to make money unless you’d come and work for us. In which case, then, Yeah, you could have made some money.

[00:04:51.44] spk_1:
Okay, We’re going to find out what that would look like if I had, indeed been working with you. Um all right, so you’ve got some You got some ideas. And, you know, we’ve shared some concerns about, uh, as I said in the intro Strategic plans. Lots of resources going to ambitious. Uh, maybe grandiose plans will just will be kind and say ambitious, but execution, Uh, I think. And you’ve you’ve heard stories, and I think you’ve seen some, too. Um, and even in the corporate sector, um, not not not executed. Just kind of sitting around and not really seeing the change that was envisioned by the by the ambitious plan. So I’m guessing, you know, I mean, we should start with, like, vision and goals, and right before we were gonna have a We got a vision to this before we can start to do the execution part.

[00:08:10.14] spk_0:
That’s right. That’s right. Listen, we’ve all we’ve all seen organizations, companies, nonprofits, maybe our own households. Who knows that, uh, well laid plans that never happened, right? They just never happened. Um, and you know, I learned this early in my career. I was once asked by a nine year old hockey player that I was coaching. He said, Coach winded. When did you decide that you wanted to be our CEO? And I thought about it for a few minutes, and I said might have been the first business meeting I ever sat in because I knew what we were talking about wasn’t gonna get done. It drove me out of my mind. Right? So, look, we’ve all been there. It starts, though. Obviously it starts with having a good plan, a plan that you believe in before you ever get to the execution part. So, you know, just real briefly, I’m sure you have plenty of shows on how to build a strategy and a plan, and there’s plenty of people out there doing that. Are we have, yes, but a couple of criteria. One you ought to be able to answer for me really quickly. What you want that business, what you want your organization to look like three years from now, and you ought to be able to do that in three bullet points. I’ll give you five if you go to seven. The last two better be really interesting. 85. So you know you have that vision and that’s a vision. All right. You know you can have visions that are this. That the other thing? No, no. Just tell me if I show up three years from now. What’s going to be different about this place, right? And look, that’s not easy. You got to think about it. You’ve got to work hard on it. It’s another job, necessarily just for the CEO. It’s also a job for the board in a non profit. They need to share that vision responsibility and then then below that. Okay, that’s the vision. That’s what we’re going to look like at three years from now. What are the 5 to 7 things we need to do? Those are the strategic initiatives. Alright. Now here the board has less of a role in my opinion, and the CEO or the director in a non profit has a very large piece here. All right. They need to know their organization where they need to take it. Um, and then a 3rd 3rd point, you know. So if you can if you can clearly show me that Hey, we’re going to do this and that’s going to lead us to that. Well, then you’ve got a good strategy, or at least a good strategic plan. There’s another piece to it, too, though, which is, and this is the tricky question that sometimes people trip up on. Tell me what you’re not going to do. Tell me what people around here have been saying we ought to do, and you’ve decided I’m not doing that. All right, We’re not going down that path. So if you don’t do that, you’re going to run into problems with resource allocation and focus and people’s commitment and engagement. So a really good strategy will tell you what you’re not going to do. All right, so, you know, that’s all I’ll say about strategic planning right now Is the output of that has to has to fit those three criteria,

[00:08:35.24] spk_1:
you emphasis believing in the plan because because later on we’re gonna talk about allocating resources around the plan to the plan taking resources away from those things were not going to do anymore and putting them towards what we are going to do. So if you’re going to do that with confidence, you’ve got to believe in where you’re headed.

[00:09:42.54] spk_0:
Let me touch on that really quickly. It’s a great point. I hear from people we don’t have the money to invest in this. Well, that either means that your plan is garbage. All right, that it doesn’t really work mathematically. So you haven’t really worked hard enough on your plan. I got an idea, right? I got an idea. And if we go do it will grow our organization in this way. All right. Well, if you grow your organization in that way, you’ll have the money to fund, you know? So either you don’t believe that’s actually going to happen, right? Or you don’t actually buy into the idea. So you know, when you come when somebody comes back to me and says we don’t have enough money to do this initiative, right? And you thought This is where I want to be in three years? This is critical to doing it. I’ve done the math. If I invest in it, it will happen. And it will benefit the organization if you come back so we don’t have the money to do it. I’m just saying you don’t understand the plan or you don’t buy into it one or the other. Right now, it could be that the plan is wrong. In which case, sharpen your pencil, Go back to work.

[00:09:48.34] spk_1:
Maybe you have something to talk about, but right, it’s either a belief in the plan or or you or you believe in the plan or you or you or you don’t.

[00:10:06.94] spk_0:
Yeah, you’re either resisting it or yeah, but the plan says that will accomplish. That’s the key. The plan says it will accomplish your goal. So how can you not find the investment? To do that, you must write, all right, or you haven’t worked out. Point

[00:10:35.94] spk_1:
is either got the wrong plan or you don’t believe in what you the plan that you have. Okay, what about the board? You mentioned the board’s role in the vision, but not so much in the the, uh, tactics are going to use to get there. What about the interfering board, or or even board member or a couple of members? Maybe it’s not the full board, but a lot of times it doesn’t matter. What about those? Those interloping interfering board members who do get involved in the tactics, the methods we’re gonna we’re gonna use to execute.

[00:10:40.14] spk_0:
Yeah. So, um, for the record, very clearly, I’ve been on four very good boards for perfect

[00:10:46.11] spk_1:
boards. And

[00:12:24.54] spk_0:
we don’t have this. We don’t have that issue anywhere. Um, look aboard. Um, a board of trustees for a school or a private private education institutions. They are responsible for preserving the vision and the values defining the vision and the values of that school. That’s what they’re there for, right? Um, they’re responsible for hiring the person to get them to that vision. Um, that person needs to create the strategy with a lot of good input from the board, but it’s their responsibility. Whoever that leader is of the organization. CEO, headmaster, director, whatever their title, um, they’re responsible for that. That’s their job. That’s what you should have hired. Alright, if somebody, because the board will never have the day to day feel for the business that that person does, right, because they only meet quarterly. Um, So if you have an interfering board member, I would argue that you have a governance problem and a strategic problem. Um, not necessarily a person problem, although it may well be a person problem as well. And I’d recommend that you go by any number of good books of how to set up good boards and go fix your board. Right? All right, you cannot. Now listen. There’s people who can help, right? There’s people with contacts. There’s people with experience. There’s an absolutely, you know, tap into them. But ultimately, the head of that organization is responsible for running that organization.

[00:12:29.35] spk_1:
It’s got to be the CEO

[00:12:31.17] spk_0:
got to be. Yeah,

[00:12:53.04] spk_1:
all right. You got some, uh, sort of steps or, you know, some. Yeah, a pathway. The pathway to, uh, to strategic execution and not surprising. Uh, lots of folks say this. We’re starting with what we’re gonna measure. Yeah, metrics. What’s your what’s your What’s your advice around here?

[00:13:10.64] spk_0:
So, a couple of things, um, let me start. Let me let me back up just a half a step and talk about something that’s, uh, near and dear to my heart called. Um, I’m stealing this from I was trained as a Baldridge examiner. That term probably doesn’t mean many too many things to people.

[00:13:16.86] spk_1:
We got jargon jail on nonprofit radio. Yeah. Just committed an offense. Baldridge Examiner

[00:13:48.34] spk_0:
folks that are younger than you and I would never would never even have heard of it. But it’s an old quality thing, Sort of like Six Sigma. And the idea was, it was run by the U. S. Federal government was quite a good program, and there was a set of criteria for a business. And you would examine the business against these criteria. And you could potentially win a Baldridge Award, which was a very big deal. Um, companies like Motorola paved. Malcolm

[00:13:52.14] spk_1:
Malcolm. Malcolm Baldrige.

[00:14:04.54] spk_0:
Absolutely. Malcolm was the cabinet with the secretary of Commerce under Ronald Reagan. Believe he died in a horse accident. Um, and they named this thing after all. Right, So

[00:14:07.51] spk_1:
Congress, A bizarre polo accident.

[00:16:09.14] spk_0:
Yeah. No, it was more like Western rodeo stuff. He was a tough guy. So civilized. The horse was tougher in any case, so it’s named after him. He was part of the driving force, and and his death actually helped get passed in any case. Long story. They had this method of when you examine a business you find out, right? Do they have a plan? Right. What result is it that they’re trying to improve? Let’s say they’re trying to improve market share, right? Do they have a plan to improve market share? Right. And you say Look at their plans. They have to produce one. And if they had a plan, they would get sort of a 10% of the total score. Right? Um and then you would look at how do you measure it? And they look at the result. And if you were measuring the result, you might get another 20% mhm. But 70% of the score on that was associated with proved to me you’re actually executing the plan. Show me that you’ve actually done it. All right, because so many people will use the sporting analogy here. So many so many companies and so many organizations have the plan, and they look at the results. And if the results go bad, they go. The plan was wrong. They never checked to see whether they actually implemented the plan correctly. So, you know, sporting analogy, a team goes out, hockey team goes out to play on the ice. Um and and the coaches say This is the system we’re going to use and they go out and they lose the game. And of course, winning or losing was the metric and come back in and say we lost. We’re changing our system. No one would ever do that. They go, let’s look at the video and see whether we actually use the system. Right? And this is a big This is a big thing that happens. Um, in businesses and other organizations, that middle step is what I call strategic execution. And I’m telling you, it is it is more rare than you think. Right?

[00:16:11.14] spk_1:
And you’ve seen this on the corporate side as well. This is absolutely for some revolution revelation that you’ve only seen on the on the not for profit side. Yeah,

[00:16:19.64] spk_0:
over and over again. The execution

[00:16:29.34] spk_1:
all right. And that, you know, we were talking earlier, and you’ve made the point that, um that leads a lot. A lot of CEOs to create reorganization

[00:16:33.93] spk_0:

[00:16:35.29] spk_1:
that they can They can say they’ve done something. I mean, they’re linked in profile is now more robust. They reorganized around something.

[00:17:12.04] spk_0:
Yeah, You see it a lot I don’t mean to bash large companies, but because large companies are much more difficult beasts, right. But very large companies do this all the time. They say that their strategy is to reorganize them. And yes, it makes them feel good because they can check off a box that they indeed reorganized. They laid off some people here. They put somebody new in charge here. They restructured, etcetera, etcetera. Um, I don’t want to be too negative, but golly, I don’t know what that gets done, and I work.

[00:17:14.41] spk_1:
There’s a lot of wasted, a lot of wasted reorganization

[00:18:28.84] spk_0:
and the issues, the things that need to be changed, the things that need to be executed, no pun intended right are or what you’re doing right. And where you’re focused, right? It’s not who’s leading it. And I mean it is who’s leading it, but it’s not entirely who’s leading it, and it’s yeah, so it’s just to avoid Listen, all of this is hard to work, right? Um, the reason the reason I did it was because if I did and I’d lose my job, these investors, you know, they weren’t interested in people who weren’t actually growing the company, right? I mean, you could have as many board meetings where you said all the right things and pretty slides as you wanted. If the company wasn’t growing, it wasn’t your job anymore, right? And by the way, very, very few people in my position work for the same investors twice. They usually do one, and then they find a different set. And I’m the only person who’s worked for this set of investors three times, okay, on three different companies. So it’s all about finding that thing that has to happen to grow the company and then making sure it gets executed. That’s why I have sort of a particular affinity or sensitivity to this issue.

[00:19:12.14] spk_1:
But so much of this is moving people. You know, people people don’t like change. I don’t care how much they’re paid. They’re still human beings. I don’t care how long they’ve been there, you know? Of course, the longer the maybe the more difficult to change. But, you know, people are resistant to change. You talk about the family, you know, people don’t like to move. People don’t like to change jobs. People don’t like change within their jobs. People don’t like to have to go to a different supermarket in the middle of a pandemic. People don’t like not being able to go out and have dinner with friends in a pandemic. People don’t like change, but so much of what we’re talking about is driving change. Yeah, you’re driving change in a company that’s driving change among a bunch of people.

[00:19:17.14] spk_0:

[00:19:32.44] spk_1:
what the company is made of. It’s, uh, it’s it’s got, It’s got assets, got hard assets, It’s got people. The the Howard assets are easy to move around. You can ship those, you can sell these, you can acquire some. But moving the freaking people, that’s that’s what we’re talking about. Moving people to change that they don’t like

[00:19:59.14] spk_0:
it is. And I would imagine that it’s more difficult in the nonprofit sector than it is in the corporate sector. And the reason I would say that is because in the corporate sector there is a big forcing function called competition right and investors, and you have to make the numbers, so if you don’t change, you know, you go away quickly and and so let me let me talk a little bit. Then about about what I see about how you do strategic execution. Because it is exactly that. It’s about changing the people.

[00:21:03.94] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times You want to be in papers like that? What about CBS Market Watch? The Chronicle of Philanthropy turn to has the relationships with these outlets and lots of others like them. They’re known in the industry so that when the outlets are looking for experts on charitable giving or non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turn to turn to calls. You. You know that because you’re their client, they’re going to call you. They can help you get the exposure. The media that you’re looking for relationships, right? It’s all about leveraging relationships. They’ve got them. Turn hyphen two dot c O. Now back to leadership for strategic execution. All right? Yeah, because, yeah, I’m gonna I’m gonna rant here about

[00:21:09.41] spk_0:

[00:21:19.44] spk_1:
before we get to metrics and resources. You know, you got to move people. You got to motivate people positively or negatively, I suppose. But you got to move people and you get people to do things that they don’t want to do.

[00:22:38.34] spk_0:
I used to tell this story really, in big, big, setting, small settings everywhere. I said, You know, you get on the airplane, you read in the airplane magazine and they’re interviewing some executive and a question answered thing and you’re going through it. And at some point they go, What’s the secret? And the executive goes, It’s all about the people and you go, Oh, crap. Like everybody gives that answer really again. And then I thought about it for a while, and I’m like, Gosh, it really is all about the people. It’s right. It’s a boring answer and it is the answer. Listen, here’s how you get people to change. Yeah, One of the things I loved about my career was I would walk into a company that had not accomplished something for a long time, and they had many things in front of them that they could accomplish, and we would go accomplish it and people would go. How did that happen? And they feel good about it, and they’d have a I used to say, I want to give them a story to tell their grandkids when they’re sitting in a rocking chair on the front porch. Right about business. Most people go through their business careers going. Yeah, there’s that over there. And then all the stuff I like over here. And I want to have something they like from their job. So, look, how do you change? How do you get people

[00:22:55.14] spk_1:
before the first? Okay. Before the first milestone, right before the first home run. This company has now achieved something that it could have achieved 10 years earlier. But, you know, there’s a bit of a founder syndrome, and they were unit dimensional, as you said. And so how

[00:22:55.34] spk_0:
do you get them bought in

[00:22:56.38] spk_1:
before that first home run? How do you get some momentum going And you get interest?

[00:23:30.84] spk_0:
Exactly. So look, um, what do you say? Well, what you do is this. First you got to find that strategy that’s all important. And you got to find the planets, and then you must communicate very clearly. Okay, You must communicate. And look, there’s some pieces to that communication. First of all, I heard a long time ago and always strive to do this. You should speak at an eighth grade level. Okay? You have to understand How can

[00:23:32.74] spk_1:
do a bunch of engineers at a tech company M B A s your CFO?

[00:23:55.24] spk_0:
Yeah. Your operations team who are hourly workers. Right. Um, so you’ve got a range. You’ve got a range in there. Speak at the eighth grade club. Secondly, make sure what you’re saying is a story. All right? I’ll go back to coaching little kids in hockey. I could go up

[00:24:20.74] spk_1:
hockey. It’s about your your affinity for hockey’s obviously coming out. Yes, I want I want you to know, uh, for for listeners because you won’t be able to see video. This is the sound of this. That’s me, uh, flipping pages through my pi Kappa Alpha Pledge book. So there’s there’s lots of there’s lots of history in these pages. Joseph Steven, pager from Meriden, Connecticut.

[00:24:23.68] spk_0:
There you go.

[00:24:24.74] spk_1:
Uh, and hockey is. Hockey is prominent on your page,

[00:24:28.21] spk_0:
and it remains. This would

[00:24:30.22] spk_1:
be from 1980. I still have this from 1980

[00:25:59.04] spk_0:
throughout my career. Uh, but here’s Here’s the deal. I can sit in front of a group of 15 year olds, and I could show them all the exes and ohs on the whiteboard and say This is what we’re gonna do today. That’s what we’re gonna do today. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they’d all be fidgeting and not paying attention. Or, like 15 year olds do. They’ll be staring at the floor, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then But if I if I came in and said, Let me tell you about a game I played in college and what happened? Their eyes are beyond me. They’d be lifted up from the floor. We respond to stories, Okay? People learn from stories. They don’t learn from textbooks, right? They learn from stories. This is what you must do as a leader. You must tell the future story. Okay? You must say, here are the great things were going to do for our community in our space. Here’s what we’re doing today. Here’s how that’s going to change and be even better three years from now. Yeah. How are we going to get there? We’re going to do these three things, okay? It’s going to feel a little different to you, but we’re going to do these three things. And do you know how many people are going to buy into that? the first time you tell them. Two. There’s if there’s 50 people in the room. Three

[00:26:03.21] spk_1:
allies you’ve got to allies you can leverage.

[00:29:09.74] spk_0:
So what do you got to do? You’ve got to tell them that same story over and over again and person by person as they ask questions. And your job is over the next 6 to 9 months to reduce it to the impact on them as an individual and how they can contribute and how they can be a piece of a piece of it. This communication aspect is very important. What I see, what I see executives do is they think, what I said that last time. I’m going to change it this time. No, no, you don’t understand. Just because they heard it once from your lips, they don’t believe it, and they probably don’t remember it. You’ve got to keep saying you got to keep saying it. Then of course, you’ve got to lead by example. Right now, you’re in a position this will go back sort of into metrics and resource allocation. You’re in a position to make a bunch of decisions and to make them in front of everybody. They have to be consistent with that vision you’re describing. So you might decide to move resources from a status quo kind of a project to the new project, and you would explain it that way. Even if they’re upset, you might decide to set certain metrics and review those metrics on a monthly or quarterly basis. Really, the metrics that you set and everybody knows there’s a billion metrics for everything. You got to pick the two or three that make a difference to your strategy and just work on those If somebody wants to know some other thing, here’s an example. Software company, last software company, Iran. We would sell the software. Then we would install it for the customer and run it for them. We call that activating it, and then we would, um, run it for them. And if they were satisfied all the time, we would make a lot of money because they would never leave us, right? So the sale part we call booking the middle part we call activating the third part we call just satisfying. And I just reduced it to that. We only have one mission here. Book activates, satisfied all of you are involved in one of those three. Okay, Now, let’s talk about how you’re involved and what you can do and get the managers in. They’re talking. This is 400 people. But that became, You know, that became our mantra. Book activates satisfied? Well, where’s gross margin in that? Where’s cost savings loses. Where is entering a new market? Well, we have stuff to do there, too. That’s it Was secondary to those three things. If you did those three things, you didn’t have to know what I used to say. If you do those three things, don’t you worry about profitability? Like a knife through butter will be profitable, I guarantee it. Right. And you don’t even need to see the profitability. So you got to make it simple. You gotta make it pity. You gotta make it catching. You’ve got to say it over and over and over again. And if you do that for six months of those 50 people in your organization, you’ll have 48 of them. And then there’s going to be too

[00:29:11.74] spk_1:
right. The recalcitrance.

[00:31:31.04] spk_0:
Yeah. They’re not going to go. You I need to go have a conversation. You need to do your job as a leader. And look, the conversations not mean the conversation is this. We’re a team. Everybody always says I’m all in. It’s all about team. Well, we’re a team. And now we’re gonna put our money where our mouth is, right? The team has decided to go in this direction. I understand that you’ve been here for a long time and that you did things a certain way and all that stuff. I get it, I get it and it’s all valid. And it was We’ve heard it, but we’ve decided as a team to go in another direction. I need you to come back and see me tomorrow. Come back tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon. Stop by my office. Just tell me, can you come with us? And if you can’t And let’s talk about how to how to separate our pads gracefully, right, it’s not a threat, you know, it’s but it is a it is necessary. You can’t have one guy on a professional sports team saying I don’t agree with the system. You just can’t. You’re never gonna win anything, right. And this is a very reasonable approach. I mean, and quite frankly, every time I’ve had this conversation, they’ve come the next morning and said, I’m in now. Some of them might have come and said, Well, I’m scared now. And so I’m in others. Might others, I think, really went home. And when? What am I doing? Why? Why am I so against this? Why can’t go along with it, right? And and they jump in and they become productive that afternoon. Right? Um, and in a couple of cases, they’ve come back and said, You know what? I really like the company that was here before you got here, Joe. And I’m not bought into this one. So how can How can we? How can I leave gracefully? Can I have a month to find? You know, you can absolutely just you say nice things about me. I’ll say nice things about you. Um, and let’s do it. So So that’s, uh, and by the way, it’s good. It’s too recalcitrance is what you call

[00:31:33.39] spk_1:
them. Yeah,

[00:31:44.14] spk_0:
they can be a huge issue, so if they exist, you must take action or you’re not going to get there because they will continue. Two needle.

[00:31:45.06] spk_1:
They’re like a cancer they’re they’re growing. They’re they’re trying to find their trying to grow their tribe right there, trying to grow their anti team.

[00:32:07.24] spk_0:
But you do it. You do it with complete and genuine respect. They have an opinion. You have an opinion. You don’t agree. There’s no reason to be, um, Washington. Ask with each other. I think I

[00:32:36.54] spk_1:
know you said gracefully, No, I mean, you’re professionals and you’re right. You don’t agree. You don’t agree on the future of the company that the team has that has a team has elected to pursue. There’s no point in, you know, there’s no point you’re hanging around your your unhappy. It’s going to hurt the team. That’s right. Let’s separate gracefully. I like gracefully. You don’t hear that in business to it gracefully. Let’s do it gracefully. Yeah, Joe, let me ask you, Do you have interest in helping nonprofits with all this leadership and strategic execution that we’re talking about?

[00:32:57.54] spk_0:
Sure, absolutely. If a nonprofit is interested in learning more about this, I can certainly help them on a consulting basis, help them get set up and help them get executing on their initiatives. I could even help them develop the initiatives, if that’s what they so desire. But yeah. No, I I very much would be interested in helping nonprofits achieve their results. Basically.

[00:33:04.04] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. And so folks can get you on linked in

[00:33:07.34] spk_0:
Absolutely. Yeah. Just look me up on LinkedIn. Last name is spelled P a J e r.

[00:33:16.64] spk_1:
You, uh, you have a little story about sales compensation.

[00:33:19.44] spk_0:
It relates

[00:33:20.82] spk_1:
to relates to metrics. But before we before we move on from metrics where we, you know, we digress, But we’re moving around. This is good. This is excellent. This is not just good. This is excellent leadership advice. Uh, you got the sales comp story?

[00:36:18.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Yes. So one of the aspects of metrics of choosing the proper metrics is that, you know, you actually have to be able to measure the thing, right? So if you say I want to measure, I want to measure, um you know, let’s say I’m a food bank and I want to measure somebody’s improving nutrition as a result of my efforts. Well, that’s probably not measurable. Okay? I mean, maybe it is, but, you know, it’s probably difficult to track that person The individual that you gave the food to and and even more so I would question your statistics is whether you could actually correlate your effort to his improving nutrition if it improved. But that’s something that’s sort of undoable. There’s others, though, that you want to measure how many new people you reached through a program, and people say, Well, we don’t track that, So you can’t use that as a metric. Yeah, you know, So every company I’ve gone into the sales, the sales compensation plan, right? We believe that sales people are motivated by making more money. Yet many executives I know have no idea what they’re Salesforce’s, how they’re Salesforce’s compensation plan works. That’s crazy, right? So every company and of course, what we care about is growing. So, of course, it’s important to us to have the right sales compensation plant so that we can drive the growth. So every company I’ve gone in and redesigned the sales compensation plan, it’s actually something that I’ve gotten quite good at it, Um, you know, it’s it’s an area of expertise and I’ve done it pretty much myself, right. Um and every time finances told me we could never track this. We could never do this. We could never. This is just what we’ve never. And in two of the three cases I got up. After about an hour’s worth of discussion, I got up. I said, I hear everything you’re saying. You must make it happen. We’ll talk again when you have a plan to make it happen. Not before. Okay, basically, I said, do it right and you just have to because they’ll find a million reasons not to. Right? So So that is my sales compensation story. So, um, you have to sometimes sometimes you and sometimes in that conversation on metrics. By the way, what they’re really saying is it’s not automated. They’re saying it’s not automated. It’s

[00:36:22.41] spk_1:
gonna be hard for us to achieve it hard for us to measure it. Not impossible. It’s just it’s just hard.

[00:36:54.13] spk_0:
And this is another little thing that I’ve learned. Some of the people who work for me called these patriotism is, but, um, if you want to get something automated, make people do it manually. You know they’ll find a way to automated, and it has the benefit of automating it correctly, because if they start out with automation. They don’t really know what they want yet, right? They don’t know the ins and outs of what they’re doing, so yeah, Okay.

[00:36:55.53] spk_1:
You say the number one resource number one job of a chief executive is resource allocation. We

[00:37:03.09] spk_0:
were touching on this

[00:37:28.03] spk_1:
before moving things away from what you don’t want to be and into what you do want to be. What else? What else? You know, again, You’re moving people. Now, this is This is some of that change Some people are gonna be into, uh, you know, whatever different team, a different activity, a different way of doing their old activity. That’s more of the change. So, you know, we talked. We talked something about that. But what? What’s your advice around Moving resources around?

[00:39:22.02] spk_0:
Well, I think look, resource allocation is fundamentally getting the right people number one and the right number of people number two. And this can be very tricky, especially with new what I’ll call new growth initiatives to the company. So in all three companies, we expanded globally, right? So we didn’t have anybody, so we had to get the right people in each country a long way away. to to do this correctly. We needed the right number of people in each of those countries, so expanding globally is one way. But another way might be to expand in non profit terms. Expand your services right? Say, I don’t want to do just this. I can also do this while I have the client in front of me so I can do even more good for the client by expanding my services as well. Do you have anybody in your organization who understands that new service the way they need to? Right. And if not, you need to go outside the organization. Do you have the right number of people to expand that new service? Okay, do I have the right number of people offering the current service? Because there’s a you know, it’s a it’s a little bit of a hill, and then and then it flattens out after there’s a peak and then a flattened out thing. When you introduce something new, so you maybe you may have introduced a new service three years ago, and you may still be staffed at your peak, and you don’t need to be right. You could reallocate some of those resources, Um, to the new service. These are the key discussions. You have to have the big one for me. Did we We talked about believing in the plan?

[00:39:25.48] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s wrapped up in that. If you’re going to move, Yeah. So resources around you got to believe in what you’re moving them toward,

[00:41:23.31] spk_0:
right? You just have to believe that that plan is going to work, right? And then you’ll be willing to commit, Um, you know, take, take another example. Um, this is a So you’re a nonprofit and you decide the development is critical to you. Okay, let’s say you’re a small educational facility, and you just gotta build the endowment, right? Or, you know, what’s happening to small private schools is going to happen to you. You’re not going to have the funds to build out the right buildings, etcetera. So you’ve got to build the endowment, and your three year plan is to add $10 million for the endowment, right? And look, you’ve had this development guy. He knows everybody, but it hasn’t really grown anything in years. Okay. All right. So you you decide. Okay. Well, maybe I move him someplace Maybe he’s going to retire. Maybe I just need a new development person, okay? And he’s got to go away. Fine. You go out to get the new development person and and you say, Well, I don’t want to spend more than $50,000 a year on this person, right? And somebody who’s 75,000 comes along right, but at a much higher skill set. No, I didn’t say 150,000, but 75,000? Well, you ought to do the work rather than just say that we’re all about saving money because we’re trying to help our clients. You ought to do the work to say, What would what would this guy get me that the other guy wouldn’t get? Me and I And how quickly will I get that $25,000 a year back, right? I mean, you know, it can’t always be about being the lowest cost provider of these services. You may well find that if if you hire and spend that extra 25,000, you’re going to grow your endowment by even more right and you’ll be able to provide even more dormitories or even better, etcetera. etcetera,

[00:41:42.91] spk_1:
and this goes back again, believing in the plan. And if, and as you said earlier, you said early on, if you don’t have the money for the plan, then then you haven’t thought through your plan adequately because you you picked an aspirational plan that you can’t afford to execute. And you can’t even do the fundraising to raise the extra money because it’s too astronomical. So you’ve got the wrong plan.

[00:42:43.70] spk_0:
That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. You know where this comes up. A lot is in building buildings. It’s almost always the case that that, you know, you think a building costs less than what it’s going to cost. And it actually you think it will deliver less value than it actually delivers, right? Certain buildings. I mean, you know, if you’re building an administration building right but a new SportsCenter on a at a boarding school or a or a conference center at a place like the Trinity School for Ministry, these things these things are going to have much more impact and what you’re projecting, So think about them carefully and take the risk. I think the risk

[00:45:56.79] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony, take two podcast Pleasantries. You remember those? The podcast audience? Oh, my, uh, so loyal. Um, you’ve been If you’ve been listening for a while, you’ll remember that I used to do live listener love affiliate affections and podcast pleasantries. Well, the first of those two go away was the affiliate affections. When I ended the affiliate program, that was, uh, we had a family of, uh, about 15, maybe 20 am and FM stations throughout the country that we’re carrying non profit radio and there’s weekly schedules, but it wasn’t really scaling. And it constrained us in terms of how exactly minutes and seconds how long a show needed to be. So I ended that and the live audience, the live listener love. You know, that ended with the pandemic. I no longer go to the New York City studio no longer with Sam. Sam is still there at and y. You know, talk talk radio dot N y c. That’s him. That’s that’s that network talk radio dot N.Y.C.. It’s talking alternative, so Sam is still there. But I ended with him because of the pandemic. So of course, no more live listener love. And now working through Zoom and audacity. It’s the podcast audience. The pleasantries go out, you’re you’re the last remaining audience. When I If I cast you off, that’s the, uh, what do you call a podcast so that nobody listens to a guy talking to himself in a closet? A guy whispering to himself. Um, now So the pleasantries go out. The pleasantries remain. The podcast pleasantries. Whatever time you’re listening, however we fit. Whether you’re painting your house, doing the dishes, commuting, there’s less commuting going on. I realized that, but there’s still some commuting going on. Maybe you’re driving to, uh, you’re driving to the store. Who knows? However, non profit radio fits into your schedule. Maybe binge watching binge listening on Sundays. Who knows, However, it fits in. The pleasantries go out to you are loyal podcast audience still there over 13,000 each week. Pleasantries, pleasantries to you podcaster, podcast, listener pleasantries. And that is Tony’s Take two we’ve got but loads or boo coo. That’s what we’ve got. We’ve got Boo Koo, but loads more time for leadership for strategic execution with Joe pager and communications, you already said, speaking an eighth grade level. I guess this is another plagiarism about the number of times you should communicate and how many people are going to reach.

[00:46:32.58] spk_0:
Yeah. So, uh, yeah, if you want to reach people, communicate four times as much as you think you need to and you’ll get to half the people you hoped. So just I I cannot stress it enough like consistency. Eighth grade level, frequency walk, you know, walk the talk. Just listen. The people are going to deliver the plant. You’ve just got to change them as

[00:46:47.08] spk_1:
the work is getting done. You know, now you’re looking over everybody’s shoulders. You’re talking about a 400 person organization. Okay, If it’s a four or eight person organization, the work is still getting done. While the CEO is not looking right there off somewhere,

[00:47:05.68] spk_0:
that’s and that’s another. I’m glad you brought that up. That is another very important part of communication. I’ll do it in an engineering way for you. Okay. Engineers, software engineers particularly, you know, they work in the dark and they work late at night, and they work alone,

[00:47:24.58] spk_1:
like the nerds that we knew at Carnegie Mellon. You get either one of us was in computer science, but we we saw them that in the winter they were walking barefoot or in flip flops. They’re always there. Always a couple of steps out of sync. But, you know, they’re They’re now leading professors at M I T. Or their founders of Google or Amazon from the 19 eighties. Yeah, they

[00:47:55.28] spk_0:
prefer to work alone. They prefer to work in the dark. Okay, great. That’s an over generalization. All my software friends. But you probably agree the so and their programming. They’re building your product, right? So now how do you guide their innovation? They’re making decisions alone in the dark at 3 a.m. In the morning.

[00:47:56.73] spk_1:

[00:50:01.16] spk_0:
well, how do you guide their decision? Well, it’s gonna be It’s gonna come down to two. Did I give them a vision that they can work with him, right. So book activates. Satisfied? Right? I said satisfy. Right. And we’ve had discussions. So with book activates satisfy, you might, you might hold after you announce the grand theme, you might hold a session just on book just on activate. Just unsatisfied, right to explore it an even greater depth. Eventually, this this guy figures out because we’re talking about satisfying so much right that when a client using his software puts the wrong inventory in or when the inventory isn’t up to date, the software doesn’t work as well, and it doesn’t create as much value as the customer would like. And he comes up with a way to automatically grab their in their inventory at 3 a.m. When no one else is around. But he wouldn’t have known him. If you hadn’t have done all that work communicating right, he might have come up with a way to make it cost less right, which might have been welcome. Might be welcome. When you’re growing a company, I never worry about the cost. It’s like if the growth plans work, the cost will never catch up. All right, we’ll be growing too fast. So you know, that’s that’s the difference is what are these people thinking when they’re on the front line and a nonprofit example? Right? Let’s say you’re a food bank that wants to work more with partnerships, okay? And your local church has a has a food bank that could partner with the big food bank. Right? Um, but you know that in that food bank, the intention of forming those partnerships is to reach people. You’re not currently reaching right, which is very different than an intent of to reach people more effectively using a local organization more efficiently, right?

[00:50:06.06] spk_1:
Yeah. You’re talking about a new market.

[00:50:34.86] spk_0:
Yeah. Those are the two reasons you might do it. Well, if you’re if you know this person who runs a food bank at your church, you can you would now ask them. Well, who are you reaching and see if you know it’s the same person already, right? Or etcetera, etcetera. So you can make a more intelligent decision at your level because you understand the vision, the strategy, what’s important, what’s being measured. And it’s going over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah.

[00:50:48.86] spk_1:
Let’s talk about holding individuals accountable through the review. Um, looking at the challenges that they’re facing, what their personal plans are. Let’s talk about that whole accountability review.

[00:52:23.45] spk_0:
So, um, couple of things one As the leader, you must be personally involved in the review and in the details, and you must personally know the progress that’s being made. Okay, Um, so you need to establish the metrics. Well, first of all, you need to do this in a regular timing kind of way. So you need a cadence What I would call a management cadence. Now, with each initiative, there’s a couple of choices you could decide I’m going to meet Weekly. All right, so now you have a weekly meeting, that sort of independent of the nature of the initiative. But weekly, we’re getting together and we’re talking about it. Okay, that’s that’s one way to do it. And for some initiatives, that’s really good. Other initiatives are a little bit weirder ago, right? Some actions like the first actions might take a week. The next action might take a month, right? For two months. So you might want to have meeting the first week and the meeting the next week to make sure you did everything from the first week. You might want to delay it for another three weeks. So there’s something needy in the meeting. Right? Something’s changed. Now, Um, I believe that, uh um I have so many quotes from this. This guy I used to work with, Um, but one of them was personal embarrassment. Is that the number one driver of human behavior now we should not abuse

[00:52:25.31] spk_1:
that management by fear

[00:53:46.15] spk_0:
we should not have embarrassment. But another way, if you flip that to the positive personal recognition is also the number one driver of human behavior. So I believe in team meetings with everybody is involved. All right, so that we can look at the metrics. What are the results? Okay, those are the results. That’s five minutes. All right. Next most important question is on this initiative. Last week, we said we were gonna do this. This and this last meeting. We said we’re gonna do this, this and this. We’re gonna go around the room. Did you do it? That’s the first question. Yes or no? Okay. Yes or no? I also have this page tourism that we are not trying to be. Washington here. We are not trying to create a culture of blame. Okay? Because it’s useless. And you can see that, right? The You know, we’re not just trying to figure out who the millennium? No, we’re trying to understand, So if you didn’t do it, just say you didn’t do it. Now, if you didn’t do it for six weeks, you’re You know, I never yelled and I never saw in any meetings. But I’ve been told that I could make the air feel very heavy. So a little bit of tension is a good thing for the whole team. And if the person continues to not deliver, well, then it’s a private conversation. You’re

[00:53:50.07] spk_1:
going to have that conversation,

[00:54:01.84] spk_0:
but it really isn’t it much better for them to feel accountable in front of the team and just accountable to you, right and and like and have the teams say, Come on, we gotta get this done.

[00:54:44.54] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, I can see your part that’s going to bring a team together If if folks are folks are willing to open up and say, you know, we’re not on radio so I can say no, I fucked up. I just I told you two weeks ago this was a priority, and I haven’t made it a priority and and I will in the next two weeks. You know, if somebody I think if somebody can say that openly to their to their to their CEO and to their team, maybe even more more so to the team, then you know, then there’s Then there’s that. Then it is a team, okay? This guy didn’t pull his weight. She come a little short. We can, you know, next week. It might be me, but it’s an environment that that supports us and isn’t beating us down now. But you like, you know, you say if it’s six months or you know, whatever you know, then then we have to go a different

[00:54:53.97] spk_0:
strategy. But

[00:54:55.41] spk_1:
that can bring a team together. That kind of opened this. I think

[00:57:37.23] spk_0:
you You are 100% correct, and the rest of the team appreciates it. Right? So another important part of this cadence meeting is that you set the example for this. That you’re you’re inquisitive. You want to understand the problem. You want to help. You’re not there to go. You didn’t do it. I move you to this side of my ledger. When you do it, you go back to the other side. No, I mean, that’s fine. And then the other thing that’s popular today is the stand up meeting. We’re going to do this all in five minutes. Yeah, you know, do you You don’t understand anything in five minutes. That’s appropriate for some meetings, but on this. What you’re trying to find out is what’s holding me back. If you’re If you’re leading an organization like I was leaving, we’re If the company didn’t grow, it was me. I was done right? You very quickly. If you have half a brain at all, you’re walking around every day trying to figure out what’s what’s going to prevent you from growing. Okay, that’s all you care about, right? You’re like and every issue a people issue, customer issue operations issue, it all gets reduced to. Is it going to prevent me from making my plan? And if it is, how are we going to solve it quickly so that it accelerates me towards that plan? Right. Um so So that’s that’s what you want, Everybody. You want everybody understanding your behavior and your questions in those terms and that we’re all on the same team trying to do this and what happens is you’re right. The team gels the people who people want to finish by the meeting. You have to have the meetings that are forcing function people most of their work the night before the meeting. That’s okay with me. Okay? Right. And yeah, you keep them open. And let me tell you the people you have all kinds of levels of people in this meeting. Anyone who can affect this is in this meeting. Okay? And what happens over time if you set the right example? Number one, the people at the bottom will come to you. And they say I so appreciate being in that meeting with you and watching you think through these problems. Mm hmm. Your direct reports. The people report directly to you that those people report to They’ll start jumping into the meeting, doing the same thing. So so And so, Joe Joe down at a low level, says I tried to get it done, but I couldn’t. Because of this. Right? In the first meeting, I’ll go. Okay. Well, how are we going to fix that? In the third or fourth meeting? The person who reports to me will go Joe right after this meeting, come to see me. We’re going to fix that. And now I’m now I’m not on cruise control, but we’re all together. We’re all together, just trying to make this happen.

[00:57:48.53] spk_1:
Not all plans are gonna work, right?

[00:58:53.72] spk_0:
No, no, Absolutely not. I’m telling you that, uh, tell you two things. One. I never walked into a company and said, You doofus, is you didn’t know you should be doing this. Never, never found, never walked in and created a new plan. Okay, what I did was I walked in, Um, and there’s this guy can itchy. Oh, my is a Japanese guy who wrote something called the Mind of the Strategist. And I’d look at the situation and I try to break it into pieces, okay into the logical pieces and then work on each piece to see how I could make it better and then put them back together. Not all of them came back together. Some we put to the side others we made. In any case, that’s a little bit material. But the the plans that we followed always existed in the business before I got there. But with some modifications, we you know, we have adopt them with some modifications, and then we’d execute.

[00:58:55.82] spk_1:
But you think the plans were already there?

[00:58:57.82] spk_0:
Sure. The ideas were already there. The idea of the middle

[00:59:00.49] spk_1:
step middle step wasn’t getting done. The execution

[01:00:23.51] spk_0:
first company I went to had a product that they were going to introduce that they’ve been talking about for five years. We introduced it in 13 months. I sat in the music, we had to introduce it. We had we had a new market we wanted to enter, and they they just went round and round and round on whether it was the right market to enter. You can always find a reason not to do something. It’s a lot easier to find reasons not to do something than it is to find reasons to. There’s almost this, Uh, there’s almost this mindset like, Well, we got to find something that no one in the industry has ever thought of. Well, that’s Yeah, good luck with that. That this never happens, right? No, you got to execute better than other company. So, you know, we had this market we wanted to enter, and everybody was disproving why we could enter it. And at some point I just said, No, I think we can do it. Let’s try it and we went after it. And that company is thriving in that market today. Alright, the last software company that I ran. Same thing. There’s a new market. We went after it. We’re leading in it right now, right? Um, but it was an idea that had been around forever. There was another market to where they actually convinced themselves there was no way to make any money in it. And we will. It’s that it’s

[01:00:38.01] spk_1:
avoiding that scarcity mentality and that, you know, it’s a focus on how we can, instead of why we can’t because it is always easier, much, much easier to find reasons why you can’t do something to evaluating and execute on a plan to do something. So I always say, Let’s look at how we can instead of why we can’t

[01:01:23.11] spk_0:
that that market that’s an interesting one, that market. I won’t tell you to many of the details because it’s active right now. But it’s about half of their new business right now. Okay? And and I had to move 30% of the engineering resources in that company to focus on that new market, and they were already booked, you know, they would have told you they’re booked 150% alright. So and did some things fall off the table and the status quo? You bet they did. We lived with it. We found ways around it, right? I mean, that’s But that’s the point where you see as the leader, I can’t walk away and say Figure it

[01:01:23.90] spk_1:
out. Well, that’s the belief in the plan.

[01:02:06.20] spk_0:
I’ve got to be part of the team that figures it out, right? Yes. I’m still the leader. I’m not. I’m not coming up with the solutions, but I’m asking the questions. Right. What can we do? How can we do? Tell me what we could, you know. Okay. Well, I moved. Oh, I moved 35 people over there, and you need one of them back, or you can’t get this done. So what you’re telling me? Yeah. Move them this afternoon. You know, I moved 35. Guess where I got that number? Yeah. You know, out of the air. Right. But but in some companies, that question never get out. Joe moved. Joe moved them. Can’t move them back. Okay.

[01:03:34.60] spk_1:
All right, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Pager. A reminder that Joe pager is available to consult with your non profit on everything we talked about. Strategic execution change management, leadership, fraternity, pledge training. You can reach him on LinkedIn. Remember, it’s P A J E r. Joe. Thank you very much. Good to have this conversation. You shared some excellent ideas. Appreciate your wisdom. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Next week, corporate funding. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turning to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy. And this music is by Scott Steiner. Thank you for that information. Scotty, you’re with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. Mm hmm. Mhm. Yeah.

Nonprofit Radio for February 22, 2021: Listen Closely

My Guest:

Emily Taylor: Listen Closely

If you want to know what folks are thinking, interested in and motivated by, you need to listen to your donors, volunteers, advocates, employees. How do you get to the answers to listen to? Emily Taylor talks. We listen. She’s principal of teenyBIG.

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[00:01:45.84] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with hereditary angio oedema if you swelled me up with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Listen closely. If you want to know what folks are thinking interested in and motivated by, you need to listen to your donors, volunteers, advocates, employees. How do you get to the answers to listen to Emily Taylor talks. We listen. She’s principle of teeny Big Antonis. Take two a webinar or two were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor Simplified. It’s my pleasure to welcome Emily Taylor to non profit radio. She is principal of teeny big coaching nonprofits to meaningful e engage their audiences through human centered design. Her prior experience is in nonprofit management and industrial design. The company is that teeny big dot com and you’ll find Emily on LinkedIn prominently. Emily Taylor. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:47.64] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Happy to be here.

[00:01:49.53] spk_1:
I’m glad. Let me ask you a question and I’ll bet nobody’s ever asked you. Did I pronounce your name correctly?

[00:01:54.24] spk_0:
Yes, yes, I’ve definitely lucked out with the easily pronounceable name.

[00:01:58.94] spk_1:
Excellent with martignetti. You know, uh, nobody ever asks, and they always mispronounced, but I’m always careful. But of course I

[00:02:05.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I’m married into a more common name. So it made things easy for me. Yeah,

[00:02:20.84] spk_1:
it’s easier to spell. Easier to say now. Industrial design is always interesting to me that I always think of like commercial design, like Cheerios boxes. But But that’s not That’s not strict. That’s not industrial design, really, is it?

[00:02:44.44] spk_0:
It actually is. It’s not the greatest name for a career path, but but it’s designing of products, you know. It’s the people who decide. You know what your cereal box might look like, but also your phone and your car on and, uh, you know, pens and pencils, just everything.

[00:02:46.46] spk_1:
Everything around us has design features to it. And of course, someone else was

[00:03:00.14] spk_0:
inside. You know, someone who decides how they make it, and that’s the engineer. But industrial designer really decides what it looks like what it communicates and how people connect with

[00:03:02.83] spk_1:
it. Okay, well, that I mean, there’s different principles around bookshelves than around iPhones. IPhones A little more complicated, little more complex. What? What did you industrially design?

[00:03:39.14] spk_0:
Most of my career was spent in packaging. So packaging really? And you know it Tze telling you what’s inside of something and you know why you want to pick it up and buy it on DSO Really? I like to think of packaging is an analogy for a lot of stuff. You know how we present ourselves to people have nonprofits present themselves to each other. It’s all a package that someone could gets a sense of before you dive in. Further,

[00:03:43.84] spk_1:
My favorite package packaging comes from Apple computers.

[00:03:48.05] spk_0:
I thought you were going to say that

[00:04:07.74] spk_1:
they’re so elegantly, uh, like the phone. You bet. It’s like on a pillow. I mean, it’s a piece of some material, which is not exactly cardboard, but it looks to me like it’s on a pillow and it’s wrapped in a gentle little plastic sheath. And the the power cable is is perfectly coiled, with a little little tie holding it. I mean, it’s incredible.

[00:04:38.44] spk_0:
Yeah, it is what we call the packaging experience on. And that’s really you know, if you imagine opening that up and having all the pieces jumbled out, you’d be really confused of what to do. And so, um, you know what I’ve been trained to do is think of things as a process. And how do you present information in a staged way So that someone gets it? Someone’s excited about it. Yeah, they can, you know, enjoy the joy. What’s inside?

[00:05:01.94] spk_1:
Okay, excellent. And you’re you’re you’re making a segue. Thio listening. We’ll get there, we’ll get there. Um, but yeah, you You wanna, you know that it’s your first impression. It’s the way the box looks before you even open it before you see just seeing it on a shelf, whatever it is. But then but then you I mean, you’re doing packaging, so there’s also security like you gotta hold the thing together. You don’t want it shaking in the box or whatever it was that you were packaging.

[00:05:16.34] spk_0:
Yeah, you don’t want people stealing it. You don’t want to toe fallout, get too hot while it’s shipping, there’s there’s a lot of different elements thio crunch into that beautiful package. Okay, cool.

[00:05:22.80] spk_1:
And then you move Thio Nonprofits?

[00:05:46.24] spk_0:
Yeah. So I was able to make a lateral shift where I moved, um, took my industrial design knowledge and ran a nonprofit called Design House where we worked in revitalizing local manufacturing, using design, and so we would run workshops on dhe. That was really my first forefront until, like, living in a non profit space versus just volunteering.

[00:05:58.74] spk_1:
Okay. And where’s the interesting listening and engaging with audiences on on that kind of level? Where did that come from? How did you get interested in listening?

[00:06:02.42] spk_0:
You know, I

[00:06:03.81] spk_1:
have developed interest in listening, right? I

[00:06:06.04] spk_0:

[00:06:07.14] spk_1:
what little But let’s problem where six minutes in. Let’s look what?

[00:07:16.94] spk_0:
Let’s stop listening. Um, well, I I grew up is a very kind of shy and awkward child, and and so I found, but I was really interested in people. And so I found that listening to what other people were saying and figuring out how to connect what I wanted to say and due to that really helped me. Um, you know, figure out how I could connect with people. I almost had you know, analyze it versus it, coming naturally, and so that that has allowed me to really listen in a way that I think not everybody does is I’m really looking for the words people are saying and asking them why they think that way s so that I can understand the context of where they’re coming from. And you know, whether it’s a cultural difference or or just, you know, a difference in in personality. It allows me to like bridge that gap and see where people are coming from so that I can then communicate what I want to to them.

[00:07:19.04] spk_1:
Interesting. All right. It’s very It’s very personal for you, too.

[00:07:41.64] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, it’s It took me a while to really, like, make that connection back to That’s where it came from. Um, but it’s fun. I always love just, you know, connecting with people well, in the past, in cabs. Or, you know, at the train station you just start up a conversation and and here where people are coming from, because it’s always a totally different place,

[00:07:49.84] spk_1:
we’ll be in cabs again. We’ll be in. Captain, it’s coming. It’s coming. Where you coming from, where you taking. Used to take cabs and trains. Where are you?

[00:07:59.54] spk_0:
I’m in Chicago. So we’re about 2 ft of snow in. Yeah, Okay,

[00:08:13.74] spk_1:
so let’s Tze talk about listening. So we were kind of already kind of touched about it, but, you know, like, why it’s important. But, you know, we’re talking about user research. Why should we? Why should we spend time on this?

[00:08:49.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s it’s really important. Tons of for profit companies are doing this, you know, everything that comes out of Starbucks And we mentioned cabs with uber like they’re constantly listening to people and getting ideas in front of people and and hearing the reactions to them. And people are just getting used to having these very customized experiences. And it it connects to nonprofits to people have, once you have those expectations, you have those with everything you do. So

[00:08:50.53] spk_1:
s So how are companies doing this give give a couple of examples?

[00:09:30.24] spk_0:
Um, they’re doing focus groups. They’re they’re interviewing people. They’re putting out surveys. They’re also running, testing, you know, they’re getting prototypes out in front of people. Um, they’re having, you know, influencers work with them to design products. It’s all things that concerned a little overwhelming and expensive on DSO. That’s where I think, trying to bring those the most important elements of those two non profit. So it’s not not a huge cost barrier on, you know, and finding ways to listen in the way you can.

[00:09:32.67] spk_1:
Okay, But I interrupted you when you were describing why this is important.

[00:10:52.84] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, well, you know, it’s it’s important because people are are used to having. Like I said, having these, um, being more targeted and not just following whatever a leader says eso it’s is part of human to human centered design. This is part of the experience of being let’s top down, um, or bottom up, how can we, rather than having a leader that has a vision and everyone follows it to be thinking about, um, yeah, gathering the pulse of the people that were working with and using that to ladder up to the decision making. It’s not to say this is a you know, everyone needs toe to make a decision for all but toe have that input. And I think it’s really important this year because I cannot remember a year where it is so unpredictable what people are thinking, Um, you know, how comfortable are they going out? When are they going to get vaccinated? You know, what is their? How their perceptions of organizations changed over the last year based on who connected with them and who didn’t and you know, stories. They read that it just seems even mawr important to see where people stand because this is like a There’s no apples to apples Comparison.

[00:11:43.04] spk_1:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch, The Chronicle of Philanthropy You wanna be in papers and outlets like that? Turn two has the relationships to get you on those outlets so that when these places air looking for experts on charitable giving, non profit trends or philanthropy, they call turn to turn two calls you because you’re their client. Turn hyphen two dot ceo Now back to listen closely. So we’re interested in how folks are, uh, interacting with our organization or interested in interacting with it. What what, like what’s motivating them? Those kinds of things.

[00:12:23.34] spk_0:
Yeah, I think motivating And then also you know what will fit into people’s lives like you no longer have the, you know, the consistent after school programs or the favorite, uh, you know, venues someone attended to like I remember. You know, it used to be you couldn’t plan things less than a few weeks out on a Friday Saturday night, and now you know, people are home. And so So how do you kind of get a sense of like where, you know, as a non profit where you could now fit into people’s habits as they bring some of those you know, we’re out of home experiences and to their lives.

[00:12:40.94] spk_1:
So when I was introducing the show, I ticked off listening to donors, volunteers, employees Are there other constituencies that we should be listening to?

[00:12:43.04] spk_0:
Let’s see, You said that donors,

[00:12:45.32] spk_1:
donors, volunteers, employees.

[00:13:04.64] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, I tend to look broadly at, and, um and I call audience, you know, basically people who are following you because a lot of those people could become a donor. They could become a volunteer, and they don’t really see themselves as such. Um, eso

[00:13:06.78] spk_1:
it could include, like your social Social Channel followers,

[00:13:10.58] spk_0:
could it? Yeah.

[00:13:11.85] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah. All right.

[00:13:27.84] spk_0:
Yeah. Um, you know, listening, trying to figure out how do you get them to the next stage? How do you turn them into, you know, one of the other categories? Um and, you know, but there’s really no end to who you could listen, Thio. I think that’s just where I focus is general audience

[00:13:50.24] spk_1:
folks who are benefiting from your programs to if you’re if you’re doing any kind of human service work or it could be customers if you’re a museum or a theater, it could be patrons that way. May not be donors, but maybe patrons to your museum Visitors.

[00:14:02.34] spk_0:
Yeah, and I’m going to make it sound too broad. But the real trick is to figure out who you want to listen to so that you can define it for yourself.

[00:14:11.44] spk_1:
Okay? Okay. But But all these folks, I mean, if they’re if they’re interacting with you in a meaningful way, don’t they? Don’t they deserve a voice in your You’re listening campaign?

[00:14:55.54] spk_0:
Definitely. I think where I’m going with is you know, the people who maybe are following you on social media will have different things to say. You know, if this is a museum, um, I have different things to say that people who are coming in to the museum or people who have donated to the museum for a long time. And so it’s helpful when you’re listening to kind of focus who were listening to so we don’t mix up Well, somebody said this and the other you know, these long term donors think this other thing and and you’re mixing up the messaging when, really, um, you know you need to be separating. People are gonna have a different perspective, depending on how well they know your organization.

[00:15:14.84] spk_1:
Yeah, for sure. And how they interact. So that’s what we’re here to talk about it. So we wanna we wanna avoid this. Yeah, You don’t want All the messages are like all the feedback coming a LH coalesced together and aggregated. I mean, maybe for some purposes, you aggregated. But you want to know what your distinct audiences are are saying back to you?

[00:15:18.25] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s about targeting and segmenting eso that. Yeah, when you listen, it doesn’t get confusing.

[00:15:31.74] spk_1:
Yeah, okay, so let’s let’s let’s talk about how to do this for for different audiences. How do you go about thes listening campaigns? I’m calling them listening campaigns. Is that

[00:15:35.37] spk_0:

[00:15:36.29] spk_1:
Can you put your imprimatur on that? Is that all right?

[00:15:38.87] spk_0:
No, I love it.

[00:15:44.34] spk_1:
Listening campaigns. Okay, so if you have different listening campaigns for different audiences, let’s talk about some method methods.

[00:16:43.44] spk_0:
Sure, Sure. And, you know, I always wish there was one that could really kind of all encompass get the right information. But there’s different tactics that kind of our good and bad in various ways. Um, but the one I love the most is to just straight up interview people just talk to them and this, you know, that could be done. You know, obviously, if you have very passionate followers that you can have conversations with them at any time and really talk to them about you know why they’re part of your organization. But you can also just go on toe Facebook or Twitter and just say, Hey, you know someone who comments, would you have 15 minutes to chat with me and get them on the phone? Just do that. You know, a couple people a week, and all of a sudden you’re starting to get a broader sense of what people who aren’t connected to your organization are just lightly connected. Think about you.

[00:17:19.74] spk_1:
Yeah. Excellent. Okay, So I like I like that you say, You know, just comment back to somebody on Facebook. I see you know your comment a lot. Would you like to spend 15 minutes talking to me talking to us about our organ? That you you seem to be very interested in? Um, you know, non profit radio is action steps. So, like, what can we dio eso? Um how about I mean, could you just approach? I guess you could just approach volunteers the same way or, you know, you’re you’re devoting 10 hours a week to our work or whatever it is 10 hours a month. Could you could you sit with us for a phone call and talk about the organ?

[00:18:18.14] spk_0:
Any any interaction is ah, opportunity. I mean, you could even if you have a cocktail hour, just go around and ask the same question Teoh a few different people and and take note of what they say it Z. It’s more of a qualitative kind of feedback. But you get some really great answers. Although I would take a step back and just say it’s good to know what you want to learn. I actually had a a little hosted a conversation earlier this morning about listening to your audience, and it was interesting. I asked the group if you could just reach into your audiences brain and find out anything, you know, what would you want to know? And the question really stumped people. Mhm. Uh huh. And so, you know, it made me realize that, like, as you listen, you also need to know what what you’re looking for.

[00:18:19.37] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s like your goal setting for your listening campaign. Every campaign has to have a goal. This is not a volunteer campaign or fundraising campaign. This is listening campaign. So what would you like to learn?

[00:18:39.74] spk_0:
Yeah, you know, it’s so obvious. But sometimes when we just talked to people were used to having a conversation, not, uh, really digging for information.

[00:18:56.24] spk_1:
So when you’re at that cocktail party, if you’re if you wanna engage folks in your listening campaign surreptitiously, you’re not going to say, you know, let’s have a can of pay. Would you join my listening campaign? You’re just gonna say these kind of pays a good I like the I like the little like the little shrimp tails. So what s all right? So what you want to know is gonna inform what question you’re gonna ask or what questions you’re gonna ask.

[00:19:19.64] spk_0:
Yeah, but it might be, you know, how did you find out about this event? This organization? What? What drew you to To come here, kid. Um, you know, those those kind of questions.

[00:19:27.64] spk_1:
What moves you about our work? What do you know about our work, or what’s your favorite thing that you know about our work or Okay,

[00:19:46.64] spk_0:
Yeah. And sometimes it’s a really great time to ask about. You know what you think of certain words. I’ve you know, it’s kind of taking some notes on some clients that I’m working with that are having issues. And I work with this, uh, organization that’s doing contemporary classical music. And they they

[00:19:46.91] spk_1:
have a really classical what? That’s

[00:20:04.04] spk_0:
modern, modern modern composers doing classical music and they always run into Probably What you’re thinking in your head is like people associate classical music with the big, you know, white wigs and Beethoven

[00:20:06.84] spk_1:
Strauss and right. Yeah.

[00:20:23.94] spk_0:
And so I’m really pushing them to start asking people what does classical mean to them so that they can start to really here where people are coming from and what they need to say. Toe to bridge that gap. Okay.

[00:20:25.44] spk_1:
Okay. How about some other methods? So we got the cocktail party casual. We got the, like, the ocean social listening. What else? What’s more form?

[00:21:57.84] spk_0:
Yeah, you know more. Traditionally, there’s there’s surveys which can be big and laborious, so they could be quick. Just three, You know, two or three questions surveys that you pop into your email. Um, and the thing with surveys is, uh I think really making sure they, um they don’t just They asked the right questions. So, you know, again going back to your goals. You really need to look at that. Um, but a lot of times of surveys, um, they’re not great at predicting people’s behaviors. And so, you know, a survey I’ve run into a lot of nonprofits who will say, you know, we did a survey, and everyone thought, you know, Tuesday at seven was a great time for an event, but no one showed up. Yeah, and and you know, I think the thing there is like, it’s really hard for people to predict. You know how they’re gonna feel on a Tuesday night. You know that it tze different people have, like, a mode for answering surveys. And so really, it’s great to get ideas out in front of people for those surveys. You know, maybe, What do you think? Between these three things, Um, you know, these three messaging campaigns, these three event ideas or even just, um, you know what? Sorry, I just lost my train of thought. My cat came into the room. Um,

[00:21:58.63] spk_1:
okay, we’re very We’re very family friendly. Wonderful. It could be a child in animal. Not only family friendly, family embracing, family embracing. You’re welcome to bring your cat onto this. Excellent.

[00:22:35.24] spk_0:
She might she might just join anyways. Okay, um but having what was going to say is having open ended questions so that you can here some of the things that you might not expect, so a lot of times with surveys will we might make assumptions about things. And when you leave some open ended questions that allows people thio, you know, one participate and feel like they’re engaged, but also opens you up to things you might not have thought to ask about.

[00:22:43.94] spk_1:
Do you have a favorite survey tool? Um, Surveymonkey. Everybody knows story. Monkey. Yeah. You have a favorite monkeys.

[00:22:47.95] spk_0:
Great. I’ve just started thio use type form.

[00:22:51.44] spk_1:
I’m, like form.

[00:23:30.64] spk_0:
Yeah, and and that’s been nice. It’s a little You can actually do some assessments. Uh, but it’s a really It’s more like visually engaging software. Um, so I’ve enjoyed that, and I think things where you can just when you talk about tips like putting things in emails So being able to put the first question of a survey into an email blast so people can just click on that kind of get a sense with the surveys about and that just takes, um, shoots him right into the survey versus click on this link to take the survey and then just sort of like one extra step. Okay,

[00:23:34.04] spk_1:
Do you have ah preferred length? You said they could be super long or it could be very short. I mean, I’ve I’ve had folks on saying, you know, no more than five questions or people start to fade out after so many questions. What’s your advice?

[00:24:16.44] spk_0:
Well, I I the big lengthy ones. Those are like like marketing surveys that some organizations do every couple of years. That’s that’s really not by focus. I like, Yeah, I mean, it’s especially right now. People are changing their mindsets month, a month, the quarter to quarter. And so the more the shorter you could make things and the more focused the better. So I’d rather see people you know asked 3 to 5 questions a month or every other month than 25 question survey each year,

[00:25:30.14] spk_1:
it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’ve Got a webinar for you. Five Planned giving websites that set the standard. It’s on February 25th, 3 p.m. Eastern time. It’s a romp. It’s a quick shot. I’m gonna take a romp through five plan giving websites in 45 minutes. Show you what I love about them. Show you what not to do that I don’t think is so good on them. And take your questions. Of course. Always time Q. And a quick shot 45 minutes, February 25th at 3 p.m. Eastern time, and you register for this esteemed webinar at PG Websites PG websites that is Tony’s take two. Let us return to listen closely with Emily Taylor. Do you have? Ah, this is different. Unrelated. But where my mind is thinking. So I’m gonna ask you Do you have opinion? An opinion on political polling? Like the accuracy of polling. Do you consider that within your I know you don’t do that work.

[00:25:33.37] spk_0:
Obviously you

[00:25:34.49] spk_1:
consider that within your belly. Wick toe comment on.

[00:26:36.04] spk_0:
I’ve been really fascinated by this. And this is where I go back to, like, whatever you do a survey you always have toe question what people really are, You know, the action versus what they’re predicting. Ah, nde. We’ve seen that with the last two elections of poll numbers just being way off. And so that’s that’s the sense that I get is, um that is a result of, you know, asking people toe fill in boxes versus trying to get to what they how they really feel about things. Um, you know, there’s there’s definitely a I think with surveys we can put on a we don’t want to be mean to this non profit hat or, you know, with political things like we don’t I don’t You know, I don’t quite understand. Can’t quite articulate how I feel. But I I’m just gonna answer this because this feels like the safe thing to Dio. And so those kind of answers don’t help us. Yeah, right.

[00:26:45.54] spk_1:
They’re misleading. Uh, maybe. Maybe not intentionally Or maybe in time, But anyway, they’re not helpful. Leaving your right. Leave it leave. It is not helpful. E want to attribute bad motivations to folks. I don’t want to do that.

[00:26:50.04] spk_0:
No. Like I said, sometimes it’s It’s because you know you don’t wanna be means it’s a It’s a good thing, but it doesn’t help.

[00:26:57.34] spk_1:
How about focus groups? Are there are people doing those online? I mean, it’s certainly eminently doable, are they? Are they valuable? Our folks are people participating.

[00:27:17.04] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve definitely There’s been focus groups happening over the last year. I find them. You know, there’s a lot to be careful with with focus groups because there are group dynamics that you need to be aware of. You need to be

[00:27:28.44] spk_1:
a pro at facilitating those, right? Yes. Yeah. You don’t wanna go off as an amateur trying it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Because you’re asking for people’s honest opinions and

[00:27:40.64] spk_0:
yeah, and it’s very hard for people. You don’t want to talk about some of those being nice elements. That is amplified when you have a few strangers in a room.

[00:27:48.14] spk_1:
Yeah, right. Yeah. I don’t want to say anything controversial. I don’t want anybody feeling. Yeah, but then you’re not getting truthful answers, right? So you need all right, You need a pro if you’re gonna do the actual focus groups, right? Okay. Do you facilitate those? Do you facilitate focus groups?

[00:28:04.84] spk_0:
Um, I do not. Usually there’s a few people I work with that that have done them, or, um, but, like I said, you know, prefer being able Thio digging a little deeper with people

[00:28:16.34] spk_1:
you don’t have that lions lions, then of focus groups. And yeah,

[00:28:40.34] spk_0:
well, I’ve definitely done them in. You know, in the past industrial design world, I’ve watched a lot of focus groups, so e think I I understand how complicated they are. And it’s when you get into, um, nonprofits that air so emotionally entangled in our heads that I don’t find them as is practical.

[00:28:43.24] spk_1:
Okay. All right. So don’t try this at home. Or maybe you don’t need it.

[00:28:47.52] spk_0:
Just just have a good Yeah.

[00:28:49.25] spk_1:
Alright. Another You got another method?

[00:29:20.34] spk_0:
Um, well, another, you know, we can also get into more data driven methods, which is like, a b testing or doing, you know, sending out several different options. And and so this is not listening in the sense that you people are voicing things back, but you’re seeing what decisions they make your observing their behavior. And so I find observing as another type of listening, like,

[00:29:21.18] spk_1:
what are some examples of things you might A B test?

[00:30:13.34] spk_0:
Um, you could a b test a new message you wanted to use to promote a program or or to encourage people to donate. Um, you know, the trick is to always have an action that you want people to take eso You could talk about an event in two different ways. Send that out and see you know what? What? Got people to, you know, come to the event or click for more information? Um, whatever it might be. But that’s those air. Really. They’re harder because again, you don’t get that. Why? But you do. You do get the behavior, which, as I mentioned before in the survey’s can sometimes, um, not come through because, yeah, it’s not someone’s riel reaction. Where reaction.

[00:30:19.54] spk_1:
You’re getting reaction you’re getting You’re getting data. Um, Anything else? Quantitative. You like to quantitative?

[00:30:22.97] spk_0:
Yeah. I, uh I mentioned observing Don’t

[00:30:26.54] spk_1:
hold out on non profit radio listeners. Now, keep anything into my

[00:30:30.51] spk_0:
bag of listening trip.

[00:30:31.84] spk_1:
Nothing. Nothing at the bottom of the bag.

[00:30:57.34] spk_0:
Well, this one is so observing, I think can also happen. Um, it’s a little harder right now, since a lot of people are socially distanced, but observing people’s behaviors, Um, and this could be, you know, watching people and an event. How many people like, if you have different tables where they’re going, you know, keeping track of of some of those things. Are they paying attention to different speakers

[00:31:01.91] spk_1:
when you’re CEO gets up? Does everyone go to the bar or the bathroom? That’s a bad sign.

[00:31:08.04] spk_0:
Yeah, You just don’t know what it means. You know, I always think

[00:31:13.59] spk_1:
they don’t wanna listen. Uh, going to the bar to drink. When? When? The CEO of the bathroom. They probably don’t wanna hear the CEO. So that’s bad.

[00:31:41.14] spk_0:
Well, I always think of the example of, you know, and a friend to other friend gave a speech at an event and came up to her afterwards and was like, What? Why did you hate my speech? What was wrong? And she really She had some sour candy in her mouth the whole time. And so she was kind of like like making these

[00:31:42.47] spk_1:
grimacing, disapproving

[00:31:46.94] spk_0:
faces unintentionally. And so this is where you don’t want to make those assumptions eso we can observe, and that will help

[00:31:53.82] spk_1:
us. I mean, there might be an alternative. Might be an alternative explanation for everybody going to the bathroom when you maybe you had too much

[00:31:59.82] spk_0:
punch. Maybe what? Maybe you serve too much punch.

[00:32:13.74] spk_1:
Punch, punch. All right, All right. So maybe it’s the timing. Okay. Um Alright, so that’s interesting. Yes. Observing dynamics in a room where people where people huddling. What? What? What might you learn from things like from that? Those kinds of observations when we get back to in life are really ever personal. Presidents? What might you What might you pick up or what have you seen? That’s interesting. Um

[00:32:58.54] spk_0:
uh, let’s see. I mean, you can learn like I think of an example like at a museum. You know, where are people stopping and taking the most pictures might learn. Like what is, um, what? Elements of a space are engaging to people and that could then lead you to ask more questions about why that seem more interesting to people. So So sometimes observation helps us come up with more questions than answers, but very, very helpful ones.

[00:33:01.64] spk_1:
Yeah, because those questions then could become goals for your the next phase of your listening campaign.

[00:33:25.14] spk_0:
Yeah, well, and I think, you know, to the museum example, someone might not realize they were, you know, idling in a in a certain room and taking more pictures if you would ask them in a survey or even in an interview. But if you observe them doing that, then they have to kind of think a little bit more about why they why that appealed to them?

[00:33:42.14] spk_1:
Well, that’s it. Like they’re hanging out in the French nudes room. Of course, they’re all going to say, Well, I didn’t realize I didn’t I didn’t know I was there, that really 25 minutes. I don’t make any assumptions about that Yeah, I thought I breezed right through that. The newsroom. Alright. Yeah, e

[00:35:09.14] spk_0:
Just saying Oh, yeah, Are sometimes our minds remember different behaviors than than what we actually did. Yeah, sure. Let’s see if I could think of other ones. Um, I think that that kind of covers I was I was gonna add toe observation is, um and this is less like little observation, but seeing what? What else? People do. Um, and so this could be understanding. Knew where? Where do your where’s your audience shop? What what other things are they doing with their time? Um and so this It’s not really a different method. You might still need to do a survey or interview around this, but but to understand, um, you know those air behaviors that we can then use to work with our programs on dso understanding that people, you know, maybe are more organic or vegan shoppers might then lead us to think more about the food we serve at an event, um, or or how you’re appealing your, um, your mission to people. Especially like a newer There were people. There might be some connection you can make with other habits and behaviors that they have

[00:35:11.05] spk_1:
or knowing maybe what other causes folks give to

[00:35:32.44] spk_0:
exactly. Yeah, um, you know, And knowing that someone shops set eco friendly stores might than, you know, make them more connected to a sustainable part of your organization. And, you know, knowing that you you have sustainable practices could be more appealing to them.

[00:36:28.63] spk_1:
Right? Right. You want to share that? Okay, time for our last break. Quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our executive team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising toward their goals. DOT drives has allowed us to take those key relationships and bring them to a deeper level. End quote. That’s Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is prospect to donor simplified. Get the free demo for listeners. Also a free month. It’s all on the listener landing page at we’ve got but loads more time for Listen closely, and I hope that’s what you’re doing. How did you get the company named teeny big?

[00:37:00.93] spk_0:
I gave myself a small window. Thio come up with a name and, um and what I really liked about it is I love zooming in and out on things. And so the big picture is very fascinating to me, but then to zoom in on these little details that we might observe on doing back out to see what we can broadly learn from those, Um, that was that really drew me to to the name.

[00:37:10.63] spk_1:
Okay, Now what? I’m this interesting s So why did you give yourself a time frame for choosing a name? Did you feel like you could go on forever if you didn’t? Yeah.

[00:37:27.83] spk_0:
Yeah. Coming from the design world, I knew I could spend endless amounts of time. And so, yeah, that was an entrepreneur practice I learned of. Give yourself 45 minutes for an idea and just come up with as much as you can. Then, uh, is that

[00:37:31.43] spk_1:
one? You got a company name in 45 minutes? Mhm.

[00:37:33.13] spk_0:
That’s all right. And then 14 minutes for the logo. Yeah. Kept it moving.

[00:37:41.63] spk_1:
Yeah, for a clever name. Okay. Interesting. Very. That was a very productive 45 minutes. Give.

[00:37:43.74] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s interesting. When you give yourself constraints, sometimes you can get a little more creative.

[00:38:13.32] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s for the those of us who work in the last minute. You feel that pressure now? I’m not saying, you know, last but it. But it’s time pressure. You know, your do other things until you know that you’re at the point where you absolutely have to focus on something else. And then you do. I mean, it’s amazing. You know how I can squander three hours and it’s amazing what I could do in 25 minutes. Uh

[00:38:20.72] spk_0:
huh. Yeah, that’s a part of the brain I’ve not quite understood, but it’s It definitely forces some focus. That helps. Yeah,

[00:38:34.72] spk_1:
it’s valuable. It helps. May not that I’m squandering 7/8 of my day, and then I’m only working half hour a day. But but the time pressure of ah, of an imminent deadline helps me.

[00:38:41.72] spk_0:
Yeah, sometimes you have to force it in yourself. I’d like to think about really didn’t like the names. I could just give myself another 45 minutes. But all right,

[00:38:42.21] spk_1:
you’re cheating. Then you’re gonna cheat yourself. I know, I know. Not setting the boundaries. You’re not supposed to abandon your boundaries. Emily, you’re supposed to stay. It was there was

[00:38:51.38] spk_0:
this part of my brain was telling myself that. And then the other part was like, Wait,

[00:38:57.92] spk_1:
maybe if I need more time. All right. Um, what else? Where else do radio? Where else do we go from here? Where do you wanna talk about?

[00:41:06.01] spk_0:
Let’s see, One of the things I love to talk about that I think is not happening very much in the nonprofit world is prototyping and testing on dso. I mentioned this a little bit in the ways toe. Listen, um and this kind of gets into again, like a lot of listening, and it’s a, you know, professional listening, not just conversation is trying Thio get answers to these questions that people aren’t always able to articulate. And so when we can get ideas in front of people that allows them to react. So, you know, you could you might be able to say, Oh, what would get you to come to this next event? You want pizza or free wine or, you know, you might be ableto like Sorry. I phrase it the wrong way. You might ask somebody that and they might say The obvious answer is like pizza and wine or or a discount. Um, I feel like that’s sort of the ultimate, um, answer to a lot of non profit questions when when they do surveys is people like Oh, yeah, I would come if I just had a discount or if there’s a free ticket and and yeah, I like the amount of non profits I hear that. Say, they gave them the discount and they didn’t come, Um, And so if instead we get ideas in front of people and say, You know, what if we had a Q and A at the end, or what if we, um, you know, told you some really interesting stories about this artist or composer? Um, you know, and maybe share some of those tidbits so they would understand what that actually meant. Um, you can start to paint a picture that they could get excited about, and so maybe it isn’t about the discount or the free thing, but it’s about the the interesting value that they would get out of it. Um, and they’re able to react to that rather than having to come up with the idea of themselves

[00:41:08.19] spk_1:
can give another example. It feels like we’re talking in the you’re talking in the abstract. Can we?

[00:41:13.05] spk_0:

[00:41:14.51] spk_1:
Can come An example for us. Toe ground. This?

[00:41:36.41] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah, let me think of a good one. So let’s see, with, uh, there was an organization that they were really having our arts organization, that they discovered that people were viewing them mawr as a entertainment venue. So people were coming and supporting them through ticket sales, but they weren’t moving towards donations And really seeing this organization

[00:41:45.71] spk_1:
as Yeah,

[00:43:11.70] spk_0:
yeah, and so they’re kind of struggling in this barrier. And so what we did is we actually prototypes, um, three statements that they could say ahead of their programming to remind people about the broader work that they were doing what happens, you know, when they left the building and on DWI could hit different, you know, emotional touch points. You know, one was really about the big picture of how this organization fit into the world. One gave us a practical numbers around the impact they were making. I think one told a good story about the history of the organization and So those were prototypes. Those were three different ways they could talk to people about why their organization is more than just entertainment on DSO. Then they could take those those concepts and whether it was in a survey and have people kind of choose which motivated the most. Or through an interview where they can literally just get, you know, ask people what they thought about those different. You know, those different statements and use that to then build a really powerful statement that when they did actually go, so have the next event. They had the confidence that that would make an impact. Okay,

[00:43:33.50] spk_1:
Okay. Helpful. Thank you. All right. Um, any anything we should be cautious of when we’re having doing this work? Maybe whether it’s casual at the over the counter pay table at an event or whether it’s more formal. Any lessons learned that we should avoid?

[00:44:00.29] spk_0:
Yeah, I’ve been going back thio some of things I’ve said before about people don’t always know what will motivate them. Um, and you know, they don’t always know what they’re the kind of predict their behaviors in a certain situation. And so I’ve definitely learned to live with a certain sense of, uh, uncertainty,

[00:44:01.45] spk_1:
A certain sense of uncertainty, a

[00:45:23.19] spk_0:
certain sense of yeah, helpful. Um, you know, listening is a process, and so it’s not as concrete as, um, you know, maybe some some more quantitative data points, but it is. It’s something you should always be doing. But always questioning on dhe. This kind of goes back to making, making assumptions about people you want to make sure that we’re not taking people literally, um, that that were, you know, uh, that we’re trying to figure out the motivations behind them. The, um you know, not just the functional touchpoints. So maybe, are they attending an event? Um, would they want to attend event, But also the why behind it? You know what really draws them to your organization? What caught their eye about that event? Um, and using that to then, you know, kind of taking those bits and pieces and building a story about them slowly so that we’re not. So I feel like I’m kind of getting in a little bit of a word. Jumble. Right. Okay.

[00:45:32.19] spk_1:
Well, you first of all, for functional touchpoints almost put you in jargon jail. I

[00:45:32.30] spk_0:
know. I

[00:45:32.73] spk_1:
know. Okay? Yeah.

[00:45:52.49] spk_0:
Yeah. Tony and I were just talking about jargon on LinkedIn. So, Z, uh, my watch out is to toe always sort of live in this hypothesis with listening on dso I think of. I think of it as, like a scientist.

[00:45:56.65] spk_1:
Okay, what’s the What’s the hypothesis? Oh, that you have a hypothesis going in.

[00:46:50.38] spk_0:
Well, that’s so a scientist is, um, you know, studying rocks, and they might find certain information about those rocks, but they always always have to keep questioning. Is that true? Is that true? Is that you know, is that really, um, the truth? And so I think with listening, it’s the same thing. People are complicated and so we can keep listening and gathering mawr information. Um, but we also have to know that it’s not solid ground that we’re standing on it. Z, it’s something that my ebb and flow throughout. Okay, you know, a ZX time moves on, and so it’s You have to live with some uncertainty. I e I guess what I’m saying is that if you you know, you don’t just do a survey and wipe your hands and think you have all the answers.

[00:47:06.08] spk_1:
Understand? Okay, right. You may need to have You may very well need to probe further. Asked what? Little asking One more question. Ah, dive deeper Thio to get to the rial. Yeah, Motivations person people really motivations what really moves them?

[00:47:25.78] spk_0:
Yeah. And you know, like this year as a ZX vaccinations happened, Those the ideas that people said in March might not be the same as in September. Eso you just have to live with some of that that uncertainty,

[00:47:27.28] spk_1:
okay, but it’s still worth proving its worth. Oh, yeah. You’re listening campaigns, Of course.

[00:47:35.98] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, it’s better than saying the wrong the wrong thing. All

[00:47:36.78] spk_1:
right, we’re gonna leave it there. Okay?

[00:47:38.78] spk_0:
Okay. All right.

[00:47:51.38] spk_1:
Emily Taylor. Principle of teeny big at teeny big dot com, which was derived in 45 minutes or or less. Um, thank you very much, Emily. Thanks for sharing.

[00:47:53.98] spk_0:
Thank you, tony. Thanks for having me.

[00:48:00.37] spk_1:
I did pronounce your name. Right? Right. Emily, You okay? Okay. No more shy and awkward either. Well, you’re over that. Your china smart assed, uh, non profit radio. You are. Thank you very much.

[00:48:07.77] spk_0:
Thank you.

[00:48:57.67] spk_1:
Next week, strategic execution you know, strategic planning Now what if you missed any part of this week’s show? I beseech you, Find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives prospect to donor Simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty, with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for February 15, 2021: Adversaries Into Allies

My Guest:

Leah Garcés: Adversaries Into Allies

It can be advantageous to work with people and causes on the other side. Leah Garcés shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book, “Grilled: Turning Adversaries into Allies to Change the Chicken Industry.” She’s also president of Mercy For Animals.

Just last week, she and Mercy For Animals enjoyed terrific coverage of their cause in a Nicholas Kristof editorial in The New York Times. So I decided its time for a replay. This originally aired on 10/25/19.



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[00:02:03.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer with paroxysmal nocturnal hemoglobin Yuria if you infected me with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Adversaries in tow allies it could be advantageous toe work with people and causes. On the other side, Leah, Gar says, shares her experience and advice. She’s author of the book Grilled. Turning Adversaries Into Allies to Change the chicken Industry. She’s also president of Mercy for Animals. Just last week, she and Mercy for Animals enjoyed terrific coverage of their cause in a Nicholas Kristof editorial in The New York Times. So I decided it’s time for a replay. This originally aired on October 25th 2019. I’m tony Steak to a webinar for you, sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant free demo and a free month. Here is adversaries into allies. I’m very pleased to welcome Leah, Gar says to the studio. She has been fighting for better food and farming systems for nearly 20 years. As a leader in the animal protection movement, she oversaw international campaigns in 14 countries at the World Society for the Protection of Animals and launched compassion in world farming in the U. S. She’s been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, Buzzfeed, Vice and other media. She’s at Leah L E A H underscore compassion. And the orig is at mercy for animals and mercy for animals dot or ge. Welcome to the studio.

[00:02:19.28] spk_0:
I’m so glad to be here.

[00:02:20.99] spk_1:
Thank you. Thanks for coming up from Georgia. Where that’s where you started. The, um, compassion

[00:02:27.77] spk_0:
in world farming. That’s right.

[00:02:28.91] spk_1:
Us, right? Yeah. And how many years ago was that?

[00:02:32.05] spk_0:
That was about eight or nine years ago now,

[00:02:34.52] spk_1:
Okay. And you’ve been president of mercy for animals a little over a year, just over a year. Congratulations

[00:02:41.40] spk_0:
on your anniversary. Yeah,

[00:02:45.04] spk_1:
um, I love congratulations on the book. It’s just it’s just out, right.

[00:02:48.59] spk_0:
It came out September 3rd just right about that. Okay,

[00:03:00.44] spk_1:
So, six weeks, you got a little six weeks trying to get absolutely Congratulations. Thank you. Um, you grew up in Florida

[00:03:03.09] spk_0:
and you

[00:03:03.64] spk_1:
had you had a lot of creatures, beautiful animals around. You talk a little about growing up there with a canal in your backyard and And how that inspired your life work?

[00:04:38.24] spk_0:
Yeah, I had the absolute great privilege of growing up in the swamps of Florida. Many people wouldn’t think that’s a privilege, but I dio it’s a swamp on backed up to the state park. And there was a ton of wildlife when I would look out of my glass sliding door. It was like, almost like a prehistoric looking place. So there were ducks and alligators and otters and herons and white IBIs and alters that Florida has to offer. But to me, the ones that stole my heart with the ducks and my mother had these prized flower beds. These in patients that when I was little, would come up to my chest, but and no one was allowed to touch these flowers. These were like off limits. Don’t play there or you’re dead except the mother ducks. They were the only ones, and they would waddle up when they were ready to lay their eggs and they would pat down and fix the and arrange the flowers into a nest like shape and lay their eggs. And my brother, sister and I were able to watch this all unfold from inside of our screen in Porch and we would lay on our bellies, and right on the other side was all of this unfolding, and eventually they would hatch and we would see everything. All of the dramas and the joys and the ups and downs of duck life, right? And this, really. I mean, in my mind, growing up, there was no difference between these ducks and the dogs and cats that share our homes. They had the same joys and fears, and I didn’t think anything of them needing protection. I thought, Absolutely, they need protection. They deserve to have life worth a life worth living. And I extended that out to chickens to cows. Two pigs. I became vegetarian when I was about 15 years old. After seeing a pita esque kind of documentary about meat where your meat comes from, I studied zoology. I just really wanted to help animals in particular. Farmed animals have a good life.

[00:05:58.34] spk_1:
Um, since you alluded to ah video. The pita asked video that moved your inspiration. Um, I was going to save it for later. But for listeners who eat meat, the mercy for Animals website has I’m not even gonna say disturbing, gut wrenching, gut wrenching videos on cows, pigs, fish, chicken, turkey’s, um, it’s, uh yeah, they’re beyond disturbing. But you need to know. I think e think we all need to know what is going on in our in our food supply. Basically, our food chain.

[00:06:00.57] spk_0:
Yeah, I think one of the things that mercy for animals is most known for is our undercover investigations. So, unfortunately, unlike tomatoes or onions, you can’t see very readily where three animals that end up on our plate are being raised, and that’s kept behind closed doors on purpose. So for that reason, we have to send in undercover investigators to take footage of the normal day to day practice is the factory farming, and as an organization, we’ve produced over 70 investigations and you can find them on our website on. They really show unfortunately, very normal things that happen every day. But they’re horrible. They’re horrible, their gut wrenching. As you said, they’re very difficult to watch, but I think it’s important. And our job is to bear witness to that and to bring that darkness out into the light so that people could be aware and make choices. The match, their values.

[00:07:14.24] spk_1:
So let’s let’s bring it to the chickens that are the the story of the entire book on dhe e think for for our purposes. You’re sort of a vehicle because we want to talk about engaging with your adversaries. And you have some great stories in the book. Um, but let’s so why don’t you have, like, two minutes or so before our first break? Why don’t you set the stage for us about, uh, chicken farming?

[00:07:23.94] spk_0:
So 90% of all farmed animals are the chickens raised for meat, so that’s a bit of a shocking figure that includes that. So there’s nine billion that air raised just in this country. That’s just meat chickens, excluding all other farmed animals and the majority of those, like 99.8% or raised behind closed doors, they are stuffed wall to wall in a darkened warehouse. Uh, their litter is never changed. The error is ammonia laden dust Laden. But the worst thing happening to these chickens is how fast they’re made to grow through selective breeding. So they grow incredibly fast, incredibly large, their slaughtered in only 40 days of age, though their babies still. But they’re they’re obese at this stage because of the preference for the large breast meat. And they’re kind of cages, their genetics. They grow so big, so fast, they collapsed under their own weight. Their heart and lungs can’t keep up with the metabolic demand for that fast growth, and they often have heart attacks and problems. So even if the birds go beyond this 40 days, most of them would die of a heart attack before a year of age. So it’s a very cruel and unnatural process and really constitutes one of the largest causes of suffering on the planet.

[00:10:07.84] spk_1:
You make the point that if humans grew as fast as the chickens are because of this breeding, we would be £600 by. I think H two is that will be six. If we grew at the same rate £600 by age two. All right, Okay, so that’s our That’s the setting. That’s what Leah was out to change. And that’s what the book is all about. That change that that change process. Um, so when we come back, we’ll dive in further. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Do you want coverage like mercy for Animals got in The New York Times last week? Turn two has relationships with outlets like the Times, including the times when the papers were looking for experts. They call Turn to turn two calls you turn hyphen two dot ceo Now back to adversaries into allies You wanted to engage. You needed to engage with the other side. And listen, you just gotta buy the damn book because you know, we, as I always say, with authors, we cannot fill. We can’t tell the whole story There it’s there a poignant stories that we may not get to. Um, there’s great anecdotes. There’s funny moments. There’s very touching and tender moments. Eso just get the book. You know, we’ll do the best we can in an hour. Thank you. Absolutely. Craig Watts. Uh, Craig is a farmer. We call the farm with chicken. Right. Chicken farmers. Yeah, we’ll make sure I’m doing it right. Okay. Um mhm. I wanted to do more than just say Why? Why did he Why? Why was he willing to meet with you?

[00:10:16.54] spk_0:
That is a great question. Um, so let me back up a little and say that at the time I met Craig Watts, I was desperate. So I had been, as I just revealed said earlier, had, you know, it’s very difficult to know what’s going on inside of a chicken factory farm. And I have been trying to get footage from inside of one.

[00:10:36.42] spk_1:
Yeah, let me just say what states have done to prevent, uh, investigative reports like mercy for animals. Instead of improving conditions for the chickens, they enact laws that prevent investigators and even employees from shooting video, whether it’s explicit or undercover. Right? So they another method of hiding the Legislature’s a lot of state legislatures air involved. Unfortunately, unfortunately, including in my state, North Carolina, I noticed you cite North Carolina is one of the states. So rather than improve the production of the lives of the of the chickens, um, they just hide the hide the facts, but

[00:11:15.37] spk_0:
yeah, Okay, Right. It’s an AG gag law, and North Carolina has one and but it didn’t have one. When I started working there, it got one just after I worked

[00:11:24.54] spk_1:
there from North

[00:13:57.84] spk_0:
Carolina. That’s right, and I had asked companies to give me tours. I had knocked on doors. Nobody would let me. So when a journalist introduced me to Craig Watts, I had to say Yes. I was scared out of my mind as a vegan animal rights activist to go meet with a chicken factory farmer in the poorest county of rural North Carolina. But I thought I got to go. So packed my bags with filmmaker named Reagan. Hodge, headed to Hiss Place about five hours from Atlanta, did not know what I was getting into. I remember telling my husband like, Here’s the address. Look for me buried in the chicken litter. If I don’t come back, I might be rotting away their compost fast. So be quick. And when I showed up, you know, he let me in the door and in we went and I spent the first five hours with the question You just asked me in my head as he was telling me his story, like, Why is he talking to me? Why in the world because in my mind, in my paradigm, my framework, he was just an evil person that did this horrible thing to chickens. And up until that point in my career, I had been angry at him, blamed him. I even had wished people like him ill. I hoped he lost his job. You know, I hoped he was unemployed, so I thought in my head this was some kind of ambush, you know? But I had to do it anyway, because I was desperate to get footage, and I kind of thought I was gonna go there, get footage and get the hell out of there and, like, never come back. But as I sat there listening to Hiss story, that fear was totally replaced by feeling ashamed that I had never thought truly about him as a human being and why he would have made the choices correct. And I you know, after he told me his story, I knew why he you know, he was desperate to. He wanted out and he was trapped. And to explain that you know, Craig, when he was in his early twenties, he wanted to stay on the land in a poor county in North Carolina, and there were no other options at the time, so tobacco had fallen out. There’s no other jobs. So when the chicken industry came to town and said, If you take out a quarter of a million dollar loan, which will arrange for you, you could be your own business man, you can stay on the land that’s five generations has been passed down and you just have to raise chickens for us, will drop them off and then we’ll pick them up at the end. And every time we do that, we’ll give you a paycheck and at first it works really well. So he would raise the chickens and they would take them and they get a pay check and you pay off that quarter of a million dollars like a mortgage but its factory farming. So after a while, the chicken started to get sick and they they died and you don’t get paid for dead birds.

[00:14:14.46] spk_1:
You make the point that allow the feed and all the time that went into those. But I guess primarily it’s feed that goes into the dead birds. That’s all some cost. That’s all lost cost for

[00:14:23.16] spk_0:
the propane. Electricity like their heating, the houses, they’re, you know, they’re paying for the loan itself. The structure is the loan. There’s a lot of Bill. So the idea is he just should have a little bit toe feed his family at the end. But it started to not look that way.

[00:14:38.55] spk_1:
And he got toe. He paid off his loan and then within, like, a year and a half or two years, the producer he was produced. It was he was he with producer do. He was, uh, insisted on upgrades to the to the to the houses. They call them houses. That’s that’s a euphemism. They’re They’re these gross. I don’t know. Yeah, they’re They’re metal. They’re bigger than sheds. They’re huge. They’re like, aren’t they 100

[00:15:02.41] spk_0:

[00:15:03.20] spk_1:
football field? And then, like, 40 yards wide, 40 40 ft wide, 40 ft. Thank you. Um, anyway, so then Purdue insists on upgrades, So he had to take out another loan and he’s back where he had been for the 12 or 15 years paying off a new mortgage on the on the upgrades s

[00:15:19.02] spk_0:
Oh, yeah,

[00:15:20.36] spk_1:
and that’s a That’s a subtext to the in the book is the cycle that the the few chicken producers hold the way that they hold the farmers captive. Uh,

[00:15:31.83] spk_0:
they’re indentured servant.

[00:15:53.04] spk_1:
Analogous to the way the farmers were holding the chickens. Uh, captive. Really? There are captive. Another thing about the chickens. I just, uh, because they’re because they’re in their own feces and it’s zip 30,000 of them in each again house each Each one of these large houses. Um, and they can’t walk like like you were saying, Uh, they flap their wings to try to move, but they for a lot of them, it’s hard to get to the food or the water. And they’re they’re festering in this in this feces concrete floor. And they get these sores on their on their bottoms, right? And on their bellies, is it? And And they end up with these open wound source because they’re laying in feces for 40. Is it 40 days, 40 days, 47?

[00:16:17.26] spk_0:
Yeah, in the in the beginning, they will be smaller, and they’re more mobile. But as they get into the the last half of that growth period, they find it very hard to move and what happens is because they’re all squashed together for one of the moves. It’s like shift shift, shift. Imagine

[00:16:32.15] spk_1:
you see this wave

[00:16:33.09] spk_0:
if Ugo Ugo and so it’s this constant kind of slight shifting happening in the flock. But what’s happening is there undersides are rubbing against ah, hot letter. Now the litter itself is composting all the time, so it

[00:16:45.24] spk_1:
one point

[00:16:45.67] spk_0:
e put a thermometer into the litter. At one point it was 87 degrees. So they’re sitting on hot litter, constantly rubbing. And so at one point I picked up one of the chickens and this would be the photo that would end up in The New York Times, and I was picked it up and you could see her underbelly was red and roll and it was like a bed sore, you know, and that’s where a lot of infection can come in. But it’s It was warm and mushy. It was horrific.

[00:17:16.76] spk_1:
Alright, Um, that tze Chapter five is When we find that out, it’s called crossing Enemy Lines. When you do a video, your first video and you say you’re knocked over, your eyes were watering your coughing. You were concerned about pulmonary problems and you didn’t have to make some

[00:17:32.95] spk_0:
antibiotics. I had to take a steroid to clear my lungs because I spent a lot of time filming and in the houses on working with Reagan to film. And I already had had an infection of some kind, you know, just like your winter cough kind of thing. And it got horrific. We had kept taking turning off the camera, and

[00:17:50.70] spk_1:
you said you were embarrassed by how

[00:17:51.78] spk_0:
much you were called. It was horrible. And But then I kept thinking, First of all, this is the chickens entire life. That is the only thing they ever experienced in here. And I kept thinking back to my ducks like they’re they’re lovely life out in the, you know, in the river and the swamps. And then, by comparison, these very similar animals are living in ammonia laden, dust laden hot, you know, environments that air just unsuitable for any Centeon being.

[00:18:26.44] spk_1:
So Craig wants you to see this on Dhe. I think one of the it’s one of the things that comes through is you know how to build bridges to adversaries is is trust. He learns that he can trust you. You you just articulated how you started to trust him, and he feels comfortable opening up. But after many hours, it’s not like he brings you on and then says, Let’s let’s start filming You talk to him for a long time.

[00:18:49.07] spk_0:
Well, really, it was over a couple of months and and well, even we filmed, but there was no, you know, we started filming. We came back a second time. We came back a 3rd 4th just to learn and be side by side with him to understand what his job was like. What was his day to day like and learn from him what the real problems were of the chicken industry. And truly, it wasn’t until, you know, a couple of months after meeting in person that we decided to release the film. And that was the big trust moment because there was so much risk involved with that

[00:19:29.57] spk_1:
risk for him. Because as well you see in the book, the producers, uh, have have their own policies. If if the state doesn’t have a law law, the producers have their own policies,

[00:19:54.34] spk_0:
right? So in the case of Craig, the big risk for him was losing payment, you know, losing income. And he was also so if he lost, if they decided to cancel his contract, he had no way to pay off that giant mortgage. And then the other thing is his neighbors, you know, he was afraid of being isolated. Everyone around him is growing chickens. If he goes and outs the one source of income in his county, that’s scary. That’s a brave thing to Dio. And you

[00:19:57.82] spk_1:
were under some attack two

[00:19:59.31] spk_0:
Oh yeah,

[00:20:00.14] spk_1:
from you know, a fellow activists, Why why are you partnering? Why are you even talking to these people?

[00:20:05.58] spk_0:
They really thought I had kind of romanticized this idea of the struggling farmer. Ah, lot of activist kind of thought I had really been drawn in by this idea like romanticize the rural struggle. And I just I just had to put that to one side. And I knew what I knew from talking to this human being and really seeing firsthand and hearing firsthand his struggle.

[00:20:47.04] spk_1:
So trust. I think trust is ah key. Take away for us and poignant that toward the end of the book. Jim Perdue who? Purdue Craig Craig’s Craig’s producer, uh, talks about trust, and he says that it’s what it’s what we’ll get adversarial parties through the rough spots. Basically, I’m paraphrasing, but Jim Perdue later in the book makes the point that the value of trust, which I felt with the two of you Craig early on in the book

[00:20:59.94] spk_0:
yeah, it’s all about trust. And, um, you know, Craig and I came out with a video and it had a million views in 24 hours. It was insane. We never expected some that kind of impact. And it was a roller coaster for six months after that, and and Perdue who we were exposing as not being honest with customers, they had a label that said humanely raised. And we were saying, This is not what customers think of when they see those words. We exposed that and I think the

[00:21:29.24] spk_1:
very good story of you in the book. By what We can’t go into it. But you talking to the butcher in a grocery store, quizzing humanely raised. You know you’re not satisfied with your digging deeper. What did you mainly raised me? What does this mean? That was a launching point for you get the book. Just get the book. You read the story.

[00:21:43.50] spk_0:
Thank you. Um, that is a good story. Um, yeah. Well, I’ll tell real quick that I kind of was in a Kroger with my kids shopping. And this is where I first spotted this label which started this whole, you know, probably tell

[00:21:54.67] spk_1:
every story. Okay, radio

[00:23:12.64] spk_0:
tell this one. Go ahead. Yeah, well, I just I was sitting there like looking at the meat manager, like looking at the meat. You know, I’ll which I as a vegan is weird. My kids were looking at me like, What are you doing, Mom? But I was looking and I’m like, What is this? It’s pretty green package. Looks like it’s You know what people want. Yeah, that kind of green and brown, you’ve seen it, right? It’s on earthy Look, I asked to meet manager and he got so annoyed with my questions, he ended up dragging the box back from the back and said, I don’t know, just look at it. And that’s where I figured out that because it had a Purdue label on it. Then that’s what I call customer service and ever and That’s how I found, you know, knew what Craig was doing. And, you know, later weeks with the Jim Perdue connection, they stonewalled me for about a year they would not produce, would not have a conversation. They were very angry about what happened and very defensive in the in the initial stages. But then, about a year later, after we came out with the video, I was reading The New York Times and there was an article about Purdue moving away from antibiotics and right at the very end there was a quote from Jim Perdue that said, We need happier birds and I was like, What is that? That has nothing to do with antibiotics. Why did he say that? I got very excited. I wrote to their PR person and I said, Look, can we try again? Like I read this, I can see you’re thinking about it, and I I see you’re looking into it. And to my surprise, they did answer that email. And this began a dialogue which led to speaking to the executives and writing the first animal care policy, addressing some of the very things I criticize them for not doing like putting some windows for natural light, giving the birds more space and enrichments and things like that. And we continue tohave that dialogue. And they’ve made a lot of progress to their credit,

[00:24:04.44] spk_1:
you see, and you see that progress through through the book? Um, another. Another important point I think about that you bring out about bridging making relationships with adversaries is you say you gotta walk a mile in his or her shoes. Let’s talk about that and how it relates Thio like you and Craig and Jim Perdue, et cetera. Walk a mile in their shoes.

[00:24:18.94] spk_0:
Yeah, I think from when I started off. Like I said, I wished people like Craig Ill. And then when I sat down with him and began toe, really understand his hardships and the choices he made. This really changed the problem for me and then therefore changed the solutions that needed to be created in order to end factory farming. And one of those key things was basically job options in the farming community in rural areas like North Carolina and walking. Thinking of walking a mile in his shoes, I started to change the way I was talking to him. And instead of thinking, how can I put Craig out of a business? I started to think, How can I create a new business opportunity for him? A new farming, you know, type of things. So we’re now mercy for animals is about to launch a new project precisely around that. Looking at how to transform farmers from being chicken farmers into, say, hemp farmers or which and CBD makes a lot more money than chicken, I can tell you. So these are the kinds of things I started to change. Change. It changed the problem in my mind. So it changed the solutions, and I think that was really important.

[00:26:24.34] spk_1:
They’re too poignant moments that I thought related to both trust and welcome Mile in their shoes. Uh, you were concerned about Craig’s soul as he’s day after day, spending 12 15 hours culling dead chickens. You have to listen. You have to read about how they do that through the through the warehouse and, uh, and what? That what? What? That process killing many a day, Um, what that does to his soul. You were concerned about his soul, and then the other is when Jim Perdue asks about how your newly adopted daughter is doing, and I thought, You know, they’re there. She’s concerned about Craig, the farmer who was she had wished ill of. And Jim Perdue, of all people, is asking you, you know something personal and intimate about about your about your life, and I thought, That’s an example of trust and walk in their

[00:26:33.64] spk_0:
shoes and those connections Air, you know, remind you there’s a there’s a human being behind behind. There is a human being in front of you and, you know, connecting with them takes some of the walls down that way artificially create a lot of the times, and I think that’s really important. And there’s another and I’ll tell another story not to give them all away. But later it’s your book,

[00:26:52.84] spk_1:
your income

[00:26:53.37] spk_0:
stream. I’m doing well. Uh, just for so your listeners know all the income goes thio compassion in world farming for the book. So if you want to help end this by the book and you could give it his gifts to your friend, the holiday season is coming up. So yeah. Um, so you know, one of the chicken producers we worked with later on. I can’t name them because they don’t want to be named. But we went to visit them and we were the first advocates to go talk to them.

[00:27:22.03] spk_1:

[00:27:22.79] spk_0:
that’s what Student and Mike and they invited us and is the first time. And as my coworker, Rachel, dress, skin and I walked in the door, we could see people like peeking over the cubicles and whatnot and we sat down. I pulled out my presentation. The guy was really negative. He had his arms folded and you could tell he was uncomfortable. And then after, um, my laptop pulled up, my desktop picture came up and it was of my family. And he saw my daughter, who clearly looks different. She, you know, has coffee colored skin and ringlets. And he said, Is that your kid? And I said, Yeah, that’s my daughter. I just got back from adopting her and it’s been tough. And I was like, babbling on and emotional and, you know, and he said, Oh, well, I have two adopted kids and, like from that moment on, the walls came down. We started talking about the ups and downs of raising kids and it turned out his he had a foster care that he did with his wife ministry and in that those moments to trust in the humanization of each other and we were was really built. And we were able to make so much more progress because of that. And we remain really able to talk despite the differences, which makes it possible toe make so much more progress. I

[00:31:10.54] spk_1:
thought humanize, don’t demonize. That’s a great and then but you so that you’re getting to another one that I was gonna get to. But, um, finding common ground and that common ground is not necessarily related to the subject matter you’re talking about. In this case, it was it was adoption and foster care. You found common ground totally unrelated to the subject. You were you were you were convening over. It’s time for tony. Take two. I’ve got a new webinar for you. It’s on Thursday, February 25th, five Planned giving websites that set the standard. I’ll show you why I love them and I’ll take off the No, no’s as well for your website. It’s a quick shot. 45 minutes starts at 3 p.m. Eastern on Thursday, February 25th. It’s free. Register at. Ready. Take this down now. Got You got your pick up your phone. Ready? You got your note page on the phone. You got your paper. Pen. Tony dot m a slash PG Websites. That is tony Steak too. Let us return to adversaries into allies with Leah. Gar says, shall we? Let’s do the live listener love, which is abundant. Wow, It’s abundant. Uh, let’s start abroad. Madrid, Spain Young son Korea uh, comes, uh, sorry, sir. Korea Uh Saigon Vietnam. Berlin, Germany. Guten tag, Seoul, South Korea. Khartoum, Sudan Thank you for being with us. Sudan. I don’t think you have before. That’s wonderful. Live love out to Sudan, Singapore, Tijuana, Mexico Minsk in Belarus Londrina, Brazil I may have pronounced it wrong, but I apologize. I apologize for that. But the live love goes out to Brazil. So glad you’re with us. ANKARA, Turkey It’s remarkable. Oh, really? Woodbridge, Ontario in Canada and Munich, Germany. Guten tag to ah, Munich as well. And then bring it home. Tampa, Florida, New York, New York. Multiple as always. Thank you. Thank you not to take New York for granted. New York City. Multiple listeners Special live love after New York, New York. Thank you for that. Broomfield. Colorado is with us, and eso is Rockville Center, New York. I used to have good friends. Rockville Center. There’s a good steak house there. Right by the train. What’s the name of that? That’s a bad subject. Uh, sorry

[00:31:20.35] spk_0:

[00:31:58.74] spk_1:
that Steakhouse sucks. Um, it’s right by the train station in Rockville Center. Um, Fairfield, Connecticut, Miami, Florida, Little Falls, New Jersey. Wow. In New Jersey Live love out to New Jersey. And, of course, all our live listeners. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. And we have to do, of course. And I have to send the podcast pleasantries because that’s where the vast majority of our our lives, our listeners are. Despite this plethora of live listeners, still the vast majority podcast. That’s where the over 13,000 r and I thank you for being with us pleasantries. Tow our podcast, listeners. Thank you for that indulgence.

[00:32:01.04] spk_0:
Um, hi to everyone everywhere. That’s amazing. That

[00:32:03.73] spk_1:
is, it could be It could very well be the subject. You could very well be. You could very well be the subject, but That’s a lot of live listeners.

[00:32:12.14] spk_0:
I know some people in Tampa and Madrid, so maybe it’s, you know, perhaps, yeah.

[00:32:17.34] spk_1:
Um, just get the book. If you get the book, you’ll have the same personal conversation.

[00:32:24.96] spk_0:
We just came out with the audio to just put the audio book out to. That’s helpful.

[00:32:28.74] spk_1:
Okay. Are you the Are you the reader? No. Okay. You didn’t go to Springsteen.

[00:32:32.72] spk_0:
That seems to be very popular

[00:32:33.79] spk_1:
among now.

[00:32:35.09] spk_0:
It would take a long time. I’m trying to read it out loud to my nine year old right now, and we’re only about halfway through. We read a couple pages the night that takes a long time to read it out loud, I think.

[00:32:45.04] spk_1:
Um, So we were talking about, uh, yeah, the common ground. You want to say anything more about common ground than, uh than I attempted?

[00:33:10.54] spk_0:
You think you did a good job? There’s a lot of stories in the book that, um, sort of layout how that’s possible to start those conversations and search for that common ground and how that really changes the atmosphere of that you’re trying to create solutions in and how important that is. Okay. Okay.

[00:33:15.54] spk_1:
Um, Another poignant story. When, uh, Mike Weaver again, you can find out who these characters are. Hey, agrees to introduce you to another farmer named Eric. Eric Hedrick. Who is the? He was the largest West Virginia grower. Uh, Eric was a grower for Pilgrim’s Pride, which I immediately thought should be Pilgrim Shame e You ever thought that? But we should start a website immediately.

[00:33:42.60] spk_0:
All those campaigners out there by up Pilgrim’s shame

[00:33:46.56] spk_1:
shame dot should be dot or dot

[00:33:48.48] spk_0:

[00:33:53.44] spk_1:
Okay, um, Mike Weaver were his motivations similar, uh, introducing you, Thio Eric similar to Craig’s.

[00:34:18.24] spk_0:
So I think everybody is different, but similar in that he was He was very passionate about how unjust the system is for farmers. So he to while he was better off financially than Craig. He had really taken it upon himself to be a farmer activist and really try to confront Pilgrim’s pride and get them to change their contract system and had failed,

[00:34:23.39] spk_1:
as as Craig had Craig Craig had raised objections to Purdue. Yes, and fell on deaf ears. Correct?

[00:34:28.88] spk_0:
Yes. And in West Virginia, where these two farmers are still, there was a horrific disease. And this disease had caught called gangrenous dermatitis,

[00:34:41.11] spk_1:

[00:34:42.21] spk_0:
dermatitis, where it’s basically like gangrene, where it’s a bacteria that eats the birds from the inside out very quickly at the end of their sort of the flock cycle, which

[00:34:51.57] spk_1:
is particularly shitty for the farmers because they’ve got all the feed and and other resource is invested. And so in near the end, like in week six. They’re dying exactly. They don’t get paid for that.

[00:35:04.46] spk_0:
So that’s, you know, money out of their pocket. And it’s also a horrific way for the birds to go and this disease they had been trying to get rid of and there seemed to be no end to it. And Pilgrim’s was not helping and not helping the farmers

[00:35:18.89] spk_1:
right. They wouldn’t provide antibiotics. They won’t intervene.

[00:35:30.54] spk_0:
They wouldn’t intervene. So this was causing the particular farmer. You just mentioned Eric and his wife, Rachel, to head towards bankruptcy, and that was a horrific situation for them. They have three daughters and they didn’t know what they were going to dio, and he

[00:35:38.62] spk_1:
was very heavily invested. He had 12 houses, right? And didn’t Craig have three or four?

[00:35:43.45] spk_0:
Greg had four. Mike had to. That’s more typical.

[00:35:46.33] spk_1:
This guy Eric had, uh, Eric had 12. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:50.14] spk_0:
Who is a big grower?

[00:35:51.29] spk_1:
12 times 30,000 per house. Right. So he’s like, 360,000?

[00:35:58.88] spk_0:
Yes, exactly. And it was an overwhelming task for him. So when he told them Look, I’ve got these birds. They’re dying. They’re Pilgrim’s pride. Answer was so hire more people to pick up the dead birds faster. So the companies response to we have, like a serious illness is pick up the corpses faster, which was ridiculous.

[00:36:21.33] spk_1:
Purely a commodity toe. The producers that well, things have changed. I guess there’s more humanity in it now.

[00:36:28.23] spk_0:
Somewhat it’s getting its pilgrims have done nothing. Zero, they’ve made no

[00:36:31.96] spk_1:
commitment. That’s why you want pilgrim Shame,

[00:36:33.54] spk_0:
right? Yeah. OK, great idea. Credit you with the campaign afterwards.

[00:37:30.93] spk_1:
Uh, Pilgrim’s has not moved. Some have, and we’ll talk. We’ll get a chance to talk about other other industries have changed restaurants, et cetera, foods, food outlets, etcetera. Uh, but at this time, there was no humanity in it at all. It was purely a tradable commodity. Um, so you know this is it. Tze interesting that you know, these farmers want just they they wanna be heard. They want a voice and the the companies that they’ve been appealing to a ZX we said, uh, death falling on deaf ears. But so if they’re just people who want to be heard on dhe some of them, I guess they’re more motivated by the concern for the for the birds and some it sounds like Eric more motivated by their own personal financial straits that they’re that they’re tied, it constrained into, um But in the end, they just all want a voice.

[00:37:33.00] spk_0:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, the thing with factory farming of chickens is it has such a detrimental impact on so many parts of our world. So whether you are concerned about human health and the disease that comes in and out onto our plate from these farms or about workers, justice or we haven’t even discussed in my book doesn’t really go into the slaughterhouses and the injustice around the workers there, which are mostly Latino and often treated very poorly, especially the women, or you’re concerned about the animals and the just inherent abuse in the system or the environments and the pollution that comes from it. There’s just so many negative parts. And that’s why I say it’s the biggest cause of suffering on the planet. It really touches on so much of our life. So whatever you care about you can you know, whatever is your passion, your centered thing. You confined that connection, and for me, that was this was a journey and discovering it’s not because for me, I come from it primarily because I care about the animals. But in meeting these farmers, I started to really open my scope up and understand this. This is a much bigger issue and their arm or allies I could have We could march together against this and that would be so much more powerful.

[00:38:45.30] spk_1:
And and that was one of my takeaways. Thio subsume that everything we’re saying If you could give your adversaries a voice if they don’t have a voice, maybe you can support each other in in creating that

[00:38:58.82] spk_0:
right? And you know, that’s that. That I still in learning that lesson. I’m still finding those, um, where we join you know, two forces and become more powerful as a result to to get to the same end.

[00:39:37.22] spk_1:
Um, you talk about giving the other side of a path to winning on. That reminded me of things I’ve heard in politics when you know what your back When things were more normal, way cared about foreign nations and the sense of sense, of sensitivities and sensibilities of foreign leaders, you know, I would hear in politics, you know, give them a path to success. But you in the book, you say, um, you know, give the other side of path to winning well again. Another take away for helping build bridges. Let’s talk about that.

[00:39:47.92] spk_0:
Yeah, and I mean, that applies to the farmers, but also applied to these companies that were trying to change where we’re saying, Can you move away from this horrific, unsustainable, cruel system into something else? And we really began to explore plant based alternatives, and you might think that’s insane to suggest, like chicken companies would produce, you know, soy based products or pea protein. But they are, and this was changing this mentality of we’re not trying to put Purdue out of business. We’re trying to help them evolve into a different business, or Tyson evolve into a different business. And these thes that that’s where we start to build this other path. When there we think there’s no way forward. You kind of really have to be creative and think, How can I help their business model evolve into something else? And before you know you have Burger King selling impossible burgers all over the country, it’s happening. It’s happening. And that’s how we evolved into a different business

[00:40:38.89] spk_1:
way. Just have about two more minutes before before our final break. Um, global Animal Partnership. I thought that was an example of a path toward winning for your adversaries. Talking about

[00:40:48.43] spk_0:
that. Yeah, Global animal partnership is a animal welfare certification. You can look it up. So if you ever been in whole foods, you’ll see numbers on the meat one through five. So that is basically five is totally pasture raised, slaughtered on farm, and the animals are living the most natural life they could in a commercial setting, and one is better than industry, but and no cages, no crates and that kind of thing, but not outside. So you have this spectrum and where before we didn’t have this very clear certification for the animals. This is evolved in the last 10 years or so as one of the very clear, um, certifications where you can say, I know exactly where my meets coming from, exactly how the animal was raised. And I can put my my kind of money to my values and decide which one through five I’m comfortable with and then look for them in the supermarket

[00:41:44.81] spk_1:
path toward path toward winning. And that was, uh, a partnership with the You worked with the CEO of Whole

[00:41:50.65] spk_0:

[00:42:29.10] spk_1:
Time for our last break. Quote dot drives has been a blessing to our team. We have converted from fragmented to do lists to a cohesive process. It’s so simple and easy to use, unlike anything I’ve tried before. End quote. That’s Amy Jackson, development coordinator at J. V. I. Prospect to donor simplified. Get the free demo and the free month. You go to a listener landing page at we’ve got but loads more time for adversaries into allies.

[00:42:34.06] spk_0:
Going fast. I feel like going fast.

[00:42:36.48] spk_1:
I’m glad that’s that’s a good That’s a good sign, isn’t it?

[00:42:38.92] spk_0:
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, for sure.

[00:42:46.30] spk_1:
Okay, cool. What do you Let’s start out. What do you want to talk about? I keep I feel like I’m dominating, but I’m supposed to move things along because we do have an hour constraint.

[00:42:51.77] spk_0:
Would you want to talk about my book? So that’s great.

[00:42:54.10] spk_1:
We’re doing what? What? What do you wanna talk about in the book? Think of something. What do you What do you love?

[00:42:59.82] spk_0:
What do I tell

[00:43:00.94] spk_1:
a story or a story? Tell a story or something we talked about?

[00:43:04.10] spk_0:
I don’t know. I guess you know, one of the things that really changed another part that changed my career path is having kids. And I think a lot of people can relate to this. And I hear a lot of advocates say this to or people who work in the nonprofit space. There’s a some point in your life when you you say, like, I really want to make a difference now. And I really want to focus on on delivering my values into the world. And for me. That was when my first son was born. So I had been working in non profit already, but had been working on all animals, and it was only after my son Ruben was born, Uh, that I just sort of looked at him and I thought, Okay, like all my heart is in this one child and without a doubt in 18 years, he’s gonna leave. So when I’m working and I’m not with him, I have got to be ruthless with my time and my impact and that really switched to really focus on farmed animals because farmed animals are the most impacted of any of the animals on our planet that we try to help. So way way overshadows dogs and cats, which is where the majority of our philanthropic dollar goes to

[00:44:13.47] spk_1:
and the and the United States Animal Welfare Act farmed animals were excluded,

[00:44:17.34] spk_0:
right? So far, there’s animal welfare Act. All farmed animals are excluded from that. Then we have the Humane Slaughter Methods Act, which excludes which is supposed to be that animals were rendered unconscious before the knife hits their throat. But all chickens are excluded and fish are excluded. And that’s basically all the animals that we kill. You

[00:44:37.54] spk_1:
said 99 it’s 90% percent of the animals. We kill

[00:45:17.70] spk_0:
our Children. And not only that, but unfortunately, the under the current administration. They have made slaughtering extremely unsafe and fast. So it used to be, if you could imagine this about 100. It was permitted 125 birds per minute in the slaughter plants, and they just changed that for 175 birds a minute. That’s three a second. Can you even imagine that? Not only that, but they’ve removed the policing by the USDA from slaughterhouses, and they’re allowing the companies to police themselves. Yeah, and that’s really there’s very clear evidence that results in MAWR health safety issues. And you know, So for me, it’s just I cannot sort of I can’t emphasize enough how important the problem of helping farmed animal is and Andi, and it’s the main focus of my life. And

[00:45:38.72] spk_1:
you were talking about your son, your son, your first son’s birth.

[00:45:41.71] spk_0:
Yeah, that really his birth kind of was Ah ha! Moment. A light bulb moment was like, you know, time’s a wasting like I have to focus. And if I’m away from him, it better before good reason. And that really helped me to focus

[00:46:14.38] spk_1:
something. You say that, uh, that I thought was a very empathic moment. It’s early on. Uh, I’m quoting you. Anyone can end up on the wrong path despite the best of intentions that has you tell it in your duck story. Don’t tell that one relates to the related to the ducks. He she she helps the ducks. Leave it at that. You gotta get the book to read the story. But But I thought that was very empathic. I mean, that related to all the farmers that work with you. They had good intentions. Craig just wanted toe send his kids to college and make a find a living to do that and stay on his his five generation ah family land in in southern North Carolina. Great intentions, but can end up on the wrong path. That was very empathic statement.

[00:47:25.58] spk_0:
Thank you for picking up on that, That I wasn’t sure if everybody would. It was a small sentence in there, but it was meant to be very symbolic, because that is the lens we have to go in. And you know, uh, the part you know about someone’s life is like is you know, that’s a tiny fraction of what their whole life is, and you have to go in realizing there’s so much more to this person in their story, and you don’t have any clue what it is. And so you can. They could have started off this journey thinking the things you said like they want to pay for college. You want to stay on the land. They want to pay their employees. They wanna, you know, by a you know, college fund or help a charity or do a ministry for foster care, who knows? But it could have an unintentional bad consequences, And that happens a lot in our world, and it’s about help. It’s not about blaming, shaming and pushing people into a corner when they made those choices, but really trying to find, uh, the pathway out for them that leave the door open for them to get out of there.

[00:47:45.28] spk_1:
That’s beautiful segue, because I was thinking next, um, again building bridges to adversaries. I don’t know if it’s Jim produces that or, you know, I think you say this. No, no change can be achieved without the opponents engagement. Andi. I think it comes to the context of you working with working with Jim Perdue, but that, you know, that’s for the for the extreme extremist activist who will never talk to the other side. You realize now you’ve come through like that. That’s an enormous mistake,

[00:48:14.34] spk_0:
right? And in my case, I’m not in charge of a single chicken. I have no access. So the only way I could access the animals I’m trying to help is through either the farmer of the company. So I have to enter their space. I have to understand their problems or dilemmas and try to build solutions from that space, which is very uncomfortable. Yeah, and it’s messy, and it’s difficult, but you have tow. We don’t really make progress by only talking to people who agree with us. That’s not the place you make

[00:48:56.87] spk_1:
products enormously important. Yeah, you don’t You don’t control a single chicken. Yeah, um, very empathic. I mean, the whole book is really starting with the ducks in the backyard. Very. It’s a very empathic story, I think, Um, who else was Who else? Well, and ask you about some people. Jim Perdue. How did how did he eventually come around?

[00:49:05.07] spk_0:
Well, you know, the first time I met him, I didn’t know I was gonna meet.

[00:49:08.55] spk_1:
Okay? You had said Hey, had his quote. We need happier chickens. You engaged with him? Uh, you engage with the company, and and they responded. That’s right. I’m sorry.

[00:49:17.37] spk_0:
Yeah, we talked

[00:49:18.31] spk_1:
about that. Um, but then you end up doing panels with him sitting next to him being interviewed. What was that, like?

[00:49:26.77] spk_0:
Terrifying. You talk

[00:49:27.77] spk_1:
about being backstage

[00:49:28.75] spk_0:
with him, but

[00:49:29.99] spk_1:
he says he trust you. He looks you in

[00:49:31.42] spk_0:
the eye. I trust you. But first he said, I feel like a lamb being led to slaughter on. Then he said, Trust you. So there was a humane. I guess he was hoping I wouldn’t slaughter him.

[00:49:42.95] spk_1:
It was gonna be a humane slaughter. He was gonna be

[00:49:45.39] spk_0:
stage, I guess. Yeah. Uh, it was terrifying. And he and his wife, Jan, came over to London to speak at a conference called the Extinction Conference, held by compassion in world farming. Looking at the connection of factory farming with causing so many species to go extinct and the impact on our planet. And he came to speak and talk about working with each other and how difficult that Waas and We were interviewed by Maren McKenna, who is a great journalist. She wrote the book, um called Oh my gosh, Big Chicken And and it was terrifying. But again, you know, he was very honest. And I think both of us have lost some friends and becoming friends in the process. But we both can’t resist the pathway to of forging this better way. And I I think eventually others will follow this way,

[00:50:38.66] spk_1:
and the dominoes have started to fall. I think you have a chapter or section called the dominant of Falling Dominoes. Something related

[00:50:45.15] spk_0:
to that. Over 200 companies have agreed to a new policy on on chickens that are raised for meat.

[00:50:51.75] spk_1:
And these air across their producers. They’re food service companies, um, groceries, restaurants like Chipotle Panera.

[00:51:01.56] spk_0:
No groceries yet sadly. But we have no groceries. We had a whole so it’s of course. Sorry. I forgot. I was thinking like giant ones like Walmart, which I still we’re still working on, But find common ground. You trust them. Give them a path toward winning radio. Thank you. S O. Subway and Burger King, for example, have agreed thio, uh, to change their some of their conditions. So including giving the birds more space a better breed that causes less suffering, better slaughter conditions that render the animals unconscious before they’re shackled. So lots of these progress is being made, and Purdue did lead the way by creating um by saying they would provide the chickens at this higher welfare certification not certification, but standard. And that’s you know, I think, um, proof that sometimes you have to step out in front and you have to do these uncomfortable, messy and difficult things and conversations. But others will follow. If you could be brave enough to do that,

[00:52:08.25] spk_1:
read the book. The evidence is abundant that that’s that’s the case. Let’s just have a few minutes before we wrap up. Let’s talk a little bit. So where you mentioned your Burger King? Um, I’m seeing a lot of press, including investment. Um, investment advice around. Impossible burger. Um, what’s the other

[00:52:25.51] spk_0:
one beyond Beyond.

[00:52:26.71] spk_1:
Beyond burger, Right beyond foot.

[00:52:28.48] spk_0:
No. Beyond

[00:52:29.13] spk_1:
beyond meat. Impossible burger. Um, and you wrap up with well near wrap up with regenerative organics. So so organic alone on chicken is not organic is not synonymous with humanely raised the way we’re talking about is not synonymous with pastor raises. It relates to the food, right?

[00:52:48.35] spk_0:
Right. It’s the that means the feed has been raised without pesticide. You have to see you have to see pasture

[00:52:54.46] spk_1:
raised or the or the I guess the five on the on the

[00:52:58.32] spk_0:
gap or look for a plant based alternatives. And I think that’s a really what’s a really important growing trends like, for example, where I live in Atlanta. We had this crazy thing happened a month ago, which was the KFC trialed beyond chicken nuggets in Atlanta, and it was insane. So it was one day tri ALS in Atlanta and I went at 10 o’clock. We did some filming, and when I got there at 10 o’clock, there was traffic stopped in all directions. They had painted the KFC green. This is KFC, Mind you, KFC right? And there was you thought they were giving out, like Beyonce tickets for free, inside or something. It was really insane, and they sold out in five hours. They said they were supposed to have two weeks worth of beyond chicken, so I think

[00:53:41.89] spk_1:

[00:53:43.38] spk_0:
They give it away. People coming to buy it and it was five hours. And it just shows this, like, insane demand for plant based alternatives. Because people are like, I don’t I don’t want to eat this much meat. I don’t want to eat this meat. I don’t know where it comes from, but it comes from a plant. I can trust that. So there’s a real swing of these companies, like KFC. On the way here I saw Dunkin Donuts commercial showing beyond sausage in their breakfast Patties. Now, so there’s a real trend in my book talks about that in the last chapter towards that plant based alternatives.

[00:54:13.33] spk_1:
And we just have a minute left. Regenerative organics. We can eat meat that is not raised for slaughter. You got a minute?

[00:54:49.80] spk_0:
Oh, that’s called. That’s not regenerative. That’s lab based meat. So eso lab bases, Where is that what you’re talking about? Okay. Lab based chapter and regenerative chapter on lab, where you take a single cell from a feather, you grow it in a brewery kind of thing, and then you grow the burger that way, and this is really happening. And I tried duck of all things which really brings it back to the beginning, and I thought, This is the future And there’s more people that have been on, you know, been up in space that I’ve tried clean meat as it’s called at this stage. But I felt so lucky, and I really felt I was peering into the future of Ah place where no animal has ever slaughtered. And no, no animal ever suffers in order to produce our meat.

[00:56:20.84] spk_1:
Awesome. That doesn’t bring it full circle. She’s Leah, Gar says Jr CEO with an accent s. You’ll find her at Leah. Underscore compassion. The organization is at mercy for animals and mercy for animals dot or GE says, Thank you so much for sharing. Get the book for God’s sake. Next week, Listen closely with Emily Taylor. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you, find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott. Thank you for that information. Scotty. Be with me next week for non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for February 8, 2021: Opera Singer to Fundraiser

My Guest:

Yolanda F. Johnson: Opera Singer to Fundraiser

Yolanda F. Johnson’s classical opera training informs her fundraising practice. She’s the founder and president of YFJ Consulting and the first African-American president of Women in Development, NY. She’s with us for the hour.



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[00:02:12.24] spk_1:
Hi there. I’m shaking it up this week. It’s a throwback. I picked an archive show, and I’m keeping it intact right down to Tony’s Take Two from Boise, Idaho, and the podcast pleasantries in the live listener Love you remember those. The sponsor messages are current, though. Got to keep the sponsors satisfied and fulfill contractual obligations. It’s from back When When we were in the studio, remember, remember the New York City studio with Sam? Sam Liebowitz, our producer? Yes, a throwback here is from June 28 2019. Hello and welcome to big ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Hemi Diocese Asia if you blindsided me with the idea that you missed today’s show From opera Singer to fundraiser Yolanda F. Johnson’s classical opera training informs her fundraising practice. She’s the founder and president of Y F J Consulting and the first African American president of Women in Development, New York. She’s with us for the hour. I’m Steak, too. Hello from Boise were sponsored by turn to communications PR and content. For nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives. Prospect to donor. Simplified for a free demo and a free month. I’m very glad to welcome Yolanda F. Johnson to the studio. She has nearly two decades of experience as a fundraising expert and professional musician. She is founder and president of Why F. J Consulting and the first African American president elect in the 40 year history of women in Development New York. Her company is why f j consulting dot com Women in development is at UID and why dot or GE? And she’s at Yolanda F. Johnson. Welcome, Johnson. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. Come a little closer to the mike. Okay. Classically trained opera singer. I’m surprised your voice

[00:02:27.70] spk_0:
If I’m singing, you’ll

[00:02:28.61] spk_1:
hear everything

[00:02:29.57] spk_0:

[00:03:01.44] spk_1:
may get to that. No, I wouldn’t put you. Okay. Um So congratulations, President Elect of women and Development with New York. Uh, you begin your term on July 1st. Awesome. Congratulations. Thank you. So timely. You see, everything in your career has led you to this day on. Indeed. Everything that we’re gonna talk about and and coming up, uh, culminates here. You’re at the pinnacle. It’s all downhill from here. That means it’s all downhill from here. I’m sorry. Uh, okay. So, uh, your Nebraska girl I am. How did you find your way from, uh, Nebraska Thio Professional opera Singing that Z, That’s not a typical trip for Ah, Nebraskan.

[00:03:12.54] spk_0:
Well, not necessarily so. But we all have our own paths. And I began with music probably four years old, and that was piano first. And then I started to sing in church, actually went to get a music degree of performance degree in undergrad in Oklahoma, went to get a graduate degree that had a focus in fundraising, arts administration and fundraising and then sold all my worldly goods and moved to New York. Because this is where you could do everything

[00:03:39.89] spk_1:
for singing, for singing principles originally or or fundraising or something else.

[00:03:45.07] spk_0:
Interestingly, I never did fundraising. Some people always have day jobs or you see performers and they have other jobs or servers or something like that. Hospitality. I’ve always loved both. I’ve always loved music, and I’ve always loved fundraising, and I’ve always had them in my life simultaneously.

[00:04:02.36] spk_1:
Okay? What does it mean to be a classically trained opera singer? What? What is that what

[00:04:08.76] spk_0:
it means? I worked really hard with lots of teachers. Um, toe learn proper technique to sing opera and classical music. Uh, opera and recitals. Art song. Um, I specialize in spirituals as well with the underground railroad.

[00:04:25.44] spk_1:
Oh, really? Okay. Um, we’ll say a little more about that. What about spirituals in the underground railroad? I mean, you’re performing those now? Yeah.

[00:04:43.84] spk_0:
Yeah. I have an album called Feel the Spirit Feel. Feel the spirit. Feel it. Yeah, And I have a concert lecture called a spirituals experience. You like that? Spirituals

[00:04:46.96] spk_1:
experience, spirituals experience, a concert lecture, eso that’s talk and singing.

[00:04:51.86] spk_0:
Yes. I teach people about the hidden messages behind some of the music, the spirituals, some of the things they meant with the underground

[00:06:00.34] spk_1:
railroad. Okay, okay. I haven’t seen a lot of opera. My the pinnacle of my opera attendance was probably I saw Aida in Italy at the Battle of the Baths of Caracalla, which is an outdoor. It used to be a bathhouse in ancient days. Now it’s, uh it’s a performance space and I was traveling in Italy. I just stumbled on these tickets from a booth on the street. Stumbled on those two. Yeah, they were. Well, I had to pay for them, but I stumbled on the booth that was selling the tickets. Just said Aida Caracol. And I thought, Well, that’s cool. I know what Caracalla is. Um, so I mean, this was a lavish. I mean, I eat it takes place in Egypt. Uh, I know, you know that, but for for for the Neophytes out there, uh, I need to take place in Egypt. And there were There were all kinds of animals. There were camels. I think there were tigers on stage, like 100 and 50 people. I mean, this was a lavish. There were live animals and lots of people. It was amazing. It was amazing. It was a beautiful night. Um, anyway, so, um, have you performed e

[00:06:03.98] spk_0:
have not performed the only one I

[00:06:05.22] spk_1:
know. Okay, e don’t even remember. This was years ago. I don’t remember, but I know it involves a queen and love and a mistress and Egypt. A lot of just like 90% of opera. Okay, Um now you’re still currently You’re still performing? Yeah, you have some. You have a show coming up.

[00:06:23.04] spk_0:
I dio have a show in August of Gian Carlo Menotti’s The Console and we actually put it in contemporary times. So it sparks dialogue about the immigration debate.

[00:06:35.94] spk_1:
Okay. Ah, nde. We’ll say it now and then. We’ll remind listeners at the end, where can they see the console?

[00:06:45.69] spk_0:
They can see the console. I’ll be Magda Magda in that production at the amphitheater at the Hudson River Museum in Yonkers. It is not upstate, it’s just the suburb

[00:07:13.14] spk_1:
Yonkers. It’s not yet well, right for New Yorkers, that’s upstate. But it tze not upstate eerie and buffalo upstate. Okay, but for geo centric New Yorkers who think this is the center of the universe, that’s you need a passport to get toe Yonkers. OK, eso if I don’t. If I forget, remind me that put little pitch in for that at the end to um so now you’re before we get to weed. So opera and singing informs your consulting. It does Y f J consulting very much. What’s the What’s the influence their of singing over fundraising?

[00:07:26.91] spk_0:
Well, since you know, as I mentioned, I’ve always had a love for both. I found this intersection that makes me so excited. And it’s using performance practice in philanthropy and and fundraising. I realized I was at somewhat of an advantage, right, because, uh, I knew how to get into character. I knew how to breathe. I knew how to get through things that make may make other people nervous. Um, by using the things I had learned as a performer and all the world is a stage. I have a workshop that I just launched a month or so ago called All the World’s a Stage, and it deals with that. It helps people. It coaches them through, um, being on that fundraising stage and using performance, practice, toe, succeed and excel.

[00:08:10.29] spk_1:
So we’re talking about overcoming the anxiety of what face to face meetings, uh, training session, public speaking, kind of public speaking,

[00:08:26.91] spk_0:
making me ask, making the pitch, knowing how to pivot if I’m talking to you and it’s not going quite right knowing what to say next. That’s improv. Improv. Yeah,

[00:08:40.66] spk_1:
uh, interesting. Because I was trained. I was I was coached, I guess, uh, years ago, when I was getting started, public speaking. I didn’t feel like I was very strong and my coach was a jazz singer and she brought in some elements of jazz, which is largely improv on Dhe. Then we thought this was incredible. She she and I worked together for a couple of years, on and off, and then she felt like she had done everything she could to help me, and she recommended I take improv classes on. I loved improv so much that I, instead of taking one class, I took four classes. Like in a year. There were three months classes. I think I could come back to back improv at UCB, the Upright Citizens Brigade here in New York City. Uh, that really she she did take me to another level, but then improv. Just the confidence of walking on stage with a scene partner with knowing only one word like knowing your first word of your first sentence and relying on your scene partner or team.

[00:09:25.64] spk_0:
And even if you’re not confident faking it until you make it getting into character, taking that breath, walking out there and just doing it, getting that performance done, whatever it is if the stage is the boardroom, if it’s on the stage, um, you’re always on stage, right? Pretty much in life. You wanna live an authentic life, but you also wanna be prepared and be able to navigate.

[00:10:52.24] spk_1:
All right, So let’s all right, let’s take our first break and then we’re gonna talk a little more detail about, uh, some of the things you just ticked off, like some of the some of the, um singing lesson performance lessons that specifically that inform your informed fundraising and speaking etcetera, little detail. Here’s that break that I inarticulately introduced turn to communications. The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times CBS Market Watch The Chronicle of Philanthropy Turn two has the relationships with outlets like these. So when they’re looking for experts on charitable giving, trends in philanthropy, they turn to turn to turn two turns to you. There’s lots of turning going on because your turn to his client turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to from opera singer to fundraiser, say a little more detail about I mean eso I riffed on improv, but what are some of the specific, uh, skills that you could bring from performance toe help fundraisers.

[00:11:01.74] spk_0:
Well, one thing in particular, I think, whoever your audiences, if it’s 205 100 people in an auditorium, if it’s your board of directors, if it’s some major donor prospects, um, you know, always being prepared, nothing will save the day like being prepared. So you have to

[00:11:17.78] spk_1:
prepare. Yeah,

[00:11:52.94] spk_0:
nothing’s gonna get you by you don’t prepare. Um, but once you have that, there’s a certain peace of mind that comes And then so you understand your audience and you wanna make sure that, uh, there’s a level of comfort between you and them with, especially with American audiences. Um, we don’t breathe a lot as native speakers of English. Have you ever noticed? Well, have you ever noticed that you’re talking and you’re just having this conversation with somebody? Maybe not you, because you’ve done improv, but a lot of us other people were just talking and then suddenly take a really deep breath.

[00:11:53.59] spk_1:
Yeah, and sometimes on the show. And I think everybody here is my breath. I’m like some kind of Godzilla. Something.

[00:11:58.88] spk_0:
Yeah. You take a huge breath because you haven’t been breathing. You don’t wanna walk around breathing too much. But you want to relax, right? Because your audience, actually on the subconscious level consents. You’re not breathing, and it makes them very uncomfortable singing or speaking. If you’re going to long, they’re like, Oh, my God, she

[00:12:16.10] spk_1:
hasn’t. I’ve also done stand up comedy along with along with improv and the audience can definitely sense fear. Maybe it comes from breath. I don’t know, but they could tell when you’re nervous and that makes them nervous. And your material could be fabulous, But they’re scared for you. So they’re not laughing the way you want them Thio audience they can smell. Yeah, right. I mean, audiences consents eso you got okay, So be prepared. Gives you confidence. You’re not fearful. People don’t sense your fear,

[00:12:45.91] spk_0:
right? And then you just know what you’re doing, right? I’m having a conversation with you. Have done the research. You do your prospecting as a fundraiser. You read your lines. Um, you learn your music as a performer, be prepared, whatever it is that you’re doing. And then that gives you that peace of mind. So I’m having a conversation with you where I don’t necessarily just have bullet points in my mind that I want to cover. I have them there is back up. But I can have a real authentic conversation with you. Right? And and from that comes hopefully dollars and cultivation of relationships and augmenting of audiences.

[00:13:30.64] spk_1:
Um, anything else we can, uh, touch on Besides, Okay. So preparation, preparation. What about breathing? Are there breathing at Do you go through breathing exercises with clients? What’s a breathing exercise? Could we doing?

[00:13:32.79] spk_0:
Sure teach me. So

[00:13:35.25] spk_1:
I’m trainable. Do I need to stand up for it? We can. We pretend I’m standing cause then we gotta adjust the mic and everything. Okay, Pretend I’m standing.

[00:13:53.48] spk_0:
So whenever you take a breath, the proper breath is not a shallow one that just goes straight out front. Right? It’s ah, breath that’s barrel shaped. We have these muscles between our ribs. Everybody talks about the diagram, but think of your not necessarily untrue. But think about your intercostal muscles, right?

[00:13:59.57] spk_1:
That’s the ones that connect the ribs to the spine.

[00:14:01.62] spk_0:
So your breath should be barrel shaped, not shallow. There you go.

[00:14:05.94] spk_1:
And into the shoulders, like up, up,

[00:14:28.34] spk_0:
up. It doesn’t have to be affected deep. And then you control it out. Mhm. Whether or not I’m sitting there and I’m about to perform or if I’m about to ask you for $10 million you take that breath, then I can look you in the eye and we can have an authentic conversation. Okay. Did that help? Did you notice the difference between the shallow and the

[00:14:42.74] spk_1:
also the pacing of your the way you were talking to? Yeah, together. Okay. Like you change, you can change the mood in a conversation through pace.

[00:14:44.47] spk_0:
Exactly. And pace is very closely related to

[00:14:46.71] spk_1:
breath. You could get people’s attention with silence. You built in a little silence. Not awkward, but there’s some pauses. You could get people’s attention that way. Yeah, I do that. Stand up trying to get I do that sometimes. Stand up, take a pause. Like every second doesn’t have to be filled with syllables. Right,

[00:15:04.24] spk_0:
Because in the audience starts getting stressed out. Okay.

[00:15:11.04] spk_1:
Okay. All right. Thank you. You’re welcome. Um, this is very good. All right. So this is the intersection of performance and on dhe fundraising. And of course I mean, you’re right. We are like, sort of constantly performing and fundraisers all them or whether you’re in a board meeting where you’re in a 1 to 1 meeting and it may not even necessarily be a solicitation. You’re trying to get to know someone, make them comfortable so that a couple of meetings from now, you know, you’re gonna ask them to be, uh, step up for the campaign or for the dinner, or to be a major volunteer or be a board member. You know, whatever it is not only about dollars.

[00:15:42.97] spk_0:
Whatever ask it is that you’re going to make. You can’t just ask people unnecessarily immediately for money. You want to cultivate that relationship, and you wanna be asked again, or you want to have your invitation accepted the next time so you can continue that process?

[00:16:23.14] spk_1:
Yeah. And if it’s awkward, uncomfortable, you’re lowering the chances of going to get an email. Yeah. Yeah. You get an email after a call, right? You get a voice, you leave a voicemail, you get an email. That’s bad. That’s usually a bad sign. Um, okay. Um, let’s all right, let’s talk some about wid 40th anniversary. You’re the first black. Uh well, they’re all females. Your first black president of wid. Congratulations on that milestone. Um, what’s what’s coming up for wod This is a big anniversary year for we do.

[00:16:27.72] spk_0:
It’s a huge anniversary. Here I happen, toe. Just love this organization. I don’t just say that, um it’s been a really big factor in my fundraising career and in my life, and it has some amazing women that are really running this town as far as fundraising is concerned in the tri state area. Really? And for our 40th anniversary, um, we have lots of wonderful things planned new programming. We have a really row best programming schedule. We’re gonna delve deeper into some issues that we haven’t necessarily touched upon before about the experience of being a woman in the field.

[00:17:03.74] spk_1:
Like Like what? What are some of those issues?

[00:17:09.64] spk_0:
Uh, well, we’re actually gonna have a conversation about the role of men. Okay? You know, uh, and we’re gonna look holistically at the with woman and And who women are in the development field and embrace

[00:17:19.91] spk_1:
the role of men. I mean, like, I could synopsis eyes that I can summarize that in a sentence. White men have all the power.

[00:17:25.74] spk_0:
Well, we’re going to talk about that. Maybe you should come to that session.

[00:17:44.14] spk_1:
That’s very interesting that you say that I wasn’t gonna bring this up. Um, but I will. Eso Years ago, I tried to be a speaker at UID, and they had some kind of policy. I don’t know if it was written or or just, uh, er de facto, but they weren’t They weren’t bring in male speakers.

[00:17:48.69] spk_0:
Well, I’ll put it this way. Would is open Wit is really smart. Okay, I will say that not just because I’m the leader of the organization, but we were dealing with some really highly intelligent people who make really good decisions for the organization where it’s at at whatever period that

[00:18:04.22] spk_1:
was Well,

[00:18:05.94] spk_0:
I don’t I don’t know that they blew it. They just made a decision that was best for the organization. But that being said, um, we our mission is to empower women in the field, whatever that means in whatever way, um is appropriate at that time. And so, in this particular season, we’ve been around for four decades, and, uh, we find the value in having that conversation about empowering women And what does that mean? You know, how can this whole village of people in philanthropy empower women in the development field? And so, um, at that particular session, it would make a lot of sense, possibly for you to join us. Well, I would like committees listening. Right? We have witnesses.

[00:18:47.58] spk_1:
Okay, I would I would love to. We’re gonna send out live Whistler in love with you. How many are in Manhattan right now? Um, but I also want to make clear they don’t doesn’t have to be, uh, men in the room to talk about dealing with male

[00:18:59.69] spk_0:
power. No, not not. Not at all. But we, as women, have talked about for a long time. And now we need we want to look at it from a different perspective. And not only that, but again empowering women. So we have programs around professional development skills based, um, wellness. You know, we’re gonna be introducing that this year. We’re going through a rebranding. So we’re gonna launch that at our member meeting in September. Eso just lots of really wonderful, exciting things. We also talk about leadership, of course. You know, in the trajectory of ah women and development members career. How to assess that. And then we have this amazing network of women that are so supportive. There’s a sense of camaraderie with wood that’s just unique,

[00:19:42.25] spk_1:
is with National. And this is the New York, uh, chapter we’re talking about, or is with New York unique

[00:19:49.54] spk_0:
with other women and development. There are other chapters, but there’s not a national body that oversees us. Uh, but there’s a chapter, and there’s would Greater Boston. Um, there’s one in New Jersey. There’s one upstate in actual upstate, not in Westchester. E think there’s one around Westchester to, um and you know, we’re actually doing some research to really discover. So if, uh, your audience is broad, right all over the country. So if there are with chapters that we may not know of, we want to talk to you, actually, because we like toe toe, have a conversation with you about getting together and working together.

[00:20:27.14] spk_1:
Um, does wid you mentioned the network does, does does we’ve encourage mentorship. You must

[00:20:58.04] spk_0:
we Do We have an organic mentor ship that happens? I’ve had several really, really, um, pivotal mentors that have come through with that have taught me so much. Uh, and I think that we all find those relationships. It’s why going to our networking events going to our programs. You end up developing the circle of colleagues and really friends that it lasts for years.

[00:20:59.32] spk_1:
Yeah, it’s it’s crucial. I’ve had lots of guests talk about it, and I’ve experienced it myself. Um, mentorship.

[00:21:22.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s very important. And that’s one of the beautiful things about many and leadership with with our board of directors Phenomenal women. Uh, and I don’t say that I don’t give free compliments. Um, I mean it when I say that and they are so open to, you know, spending time with young professionals with other people if they have questions, um, really championing. And again, we all go back to empowerment of women in the fundraising field.

[00:21:41.18] spk_1:
Is there a coronation on Monday? Uh, Monday Coronation event that we should be attending at Cipriani, or oh, uh, no,

[00:21:49.60] spk_0:
but we just had our woman of achievement a week or so ago. Um, no, there isn’t it. It’s a quiet transition, but, uh, but nonetheless enthusiastic.

[00:21:58.04] spk_1:
What is your first official act? A ZX president.

[00:22:02.64] spk_0:
My first official act I already have a task list for Monday of some things that just need to get done. I’ve been working for a while, actually. Are outgoing president. I’ll give her a shout out here. Bryant, Um, wonderful person and leader. And,

[00:22:16.49] spk_1:

[00:22:23.04] spk_0:
she’s the director of development there. And so I’ll just be looking forward to a lot of the things that I’ve started implementing. Really? As early as January, she was very supportive. We started a system that hopefully I’ll be able to continue of allowing the person coming next, um, to begin the planning process so that they could be ahead of the game before that July 1st period.

[00:22:41.26] spk_1:
It sounds like you have that advantage. I did. And how long is your time? Two years. Two years? Okay. And 2020 is the 40th year of Is that right?

[00:22:49.83] spk_0:
This is our 40th anniversary year, but we’re gonna have ah, birthday anniversary bash in January to celebrate that we’re entering

[00:22:56.97] spk_1:
that. Oh, wonderful. So that at the Pierre Hotel? No. Would you like to sponsor? E Don’t know about sponsoring, but I might come. Where is it? Where you doing it?

[00:23:05.14] spk_0:
Uh, those details will be available later. We have a lot that we’re launching at the meeting in September.

[00:23:09.97] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. So, January January, Miguel in

[00:23:13.53] spk_0:
January. Not big gala, but big celebration

[00:23:15.98] spk_1:
celebration. Okay. Okay.

[00:23:17.86] spk_0:
Um, as an events person, I’m very careful about that. Word. That g word,

[00:23:34.16] spk_1:
uh, means a certain certain expectations. Right? Ah, 1000 people A tw the world over story. Right? Right. So, events, um, do you Do you still enjoy events? Still like, Do you still like putting them together? I mean, I know that’s not your practice, but you still like being the organizer of events

[00:23:41.64] spk_0:
on a personal level. I think I planned my first event when I was six years old.

[00:23:45.94] spk_1:
Okay, that was two years after you started music so late, Bloomer in events. All right,

[00:23:50.64] spk_0:
Um, and I personally, I love to love people through that they’re being bringing them together through ah, common bond. A mission, Uh, just, you know, an affinity for something with delicious food and for was ready for you mentioned food? Yes. Food

[00:24:06.69] spk_1:
and food and wine, I think are great. Lubricate er’s for a room.

[00:24:11.74] spk_0:
Yeah. You know, just it’s that sensory thing. Yeah, the sensory thing

[00:24:15.44] spk_1:
and sharing. It’s a share, sure, coming together with a table, not necessarily sitting around it. But it’s a buffet table, you know? Or if we are sitting down together, it’s sharing a space, That’s why. Yeah,

[00:24:40.14] spk_0:
exactly. And for a, it should have that same sentiment. I think you know, we’re all what makes it special is that you’re coming together to celebrate. It’s a culmination of them, you know, belief in that organization’s mission. Um, it’s not just the party, but it is a celebration, you know,

[00:24:42.34] spk_1:
Um, yeah, events. I have a hard time doing events. I just the details, like, Does the bunting match the flowers? You know, things like that I don’t have a lot of patients for So I am grateful that there are people who enjoy doing

[00:24:53.79] spk_0:
it. And I love campaigns. You know, Those are my focus areas with my practices, events and campaigns. And I happen to specialize in anniversary campaigns that culminate in an event. So, you know that marries those two

[00:25:05.90] spk_1:
things that the anniversary Yeah, the anniversary, as you’re doing with wid, should be celebrated over a long over over a long period, right? Plan. These things in advance.

[00:25:14.50] spk_0:
Yes, I mean,

[00:25:15.89] spk_1:
not just a one night like a one night thing. 40th, 40th anniversary night and then e. It should be multiple activities right through a year

[00:26:07.84] spk_0:
exactly on. So it is the 40th anniversary year. That’s why we’re starting in 2019. It’s the year and then it will culminate next year, and there are lots of things planned. So we have. We’ll have our woman of achievement lunch and again next May, And, uh, then we’ll have the celebration in January. But everything this year, you know, we have thematic concepts across a year. A lot of the time this past year was women in philanthropy, and this coming year is gonna be focused upon being around for four decades and what would has meant to the fundraising field. And, uh, and where it goes from here with has meant a lot tow women in the field. We have some real pioneers, um, many of whom are still around and still supportive of the organization, and we’re really appreciative of them. Oh, see, And I know I will, but you

[00:26:10.75] spk_1:
know, I’m not. Leave somebody out, right? And then you’ll feel

[00:26:12.90] spk_0:
bad. Let me do that disclaimer. But I am that type of person that loves to give people individual attention. And then I’m like, Oh, wait. Next week on your show, you mentioned these

[00:26:21.14] spk_1:
names. E o. I put I put her on the spot so she did not come prepared. But names, um, pioneers who are members of wid

[00:26:30.79] spk_0:
Linda Hartley.

[00:26:32.24] spk_1:
Okay, I know her. She’s been on the show when she came out with her book.

[00:26:35.73] spk_0:
When is amazing? Um, Shirley Jenks, who you also know

[00:26:39.17] spk_1:
I know Shirley very well. Done some work with her Shirley Jenks and J n ks in, uh, in here in the city.

[00:26:56.44] spk_0:
Margaret Holman is a past president. Margaret. She has a relationship with Nebraska to okay, she’s on the board of the University of Nebraska. Um, we have a current board member who just co chaired, uh, woman of achievement luncheon this past year. Jane Carlin, Who’s a beautiful person. Uh, and then Oh, my God. See, now I don’t know Susan Yulin. You know Susan because she know my favorite people on the Planet

[00:27:13.26] spk_1:
E. Yeah, but just generally, for non profits, do planning in advance of your upcoming anniversary. You know, if it’s your 50th year or some organizations you know, 125th year you wanna be start planning that a couple of years in advance whether there’s gonna be What’s it gonna be? Is it gonna be a fundraising campaign or it doesn’t have to be. But it’s a good hook. Whatever it’s gonna be, you should start planning out of major anniversaries. I think two years in advance or so

[00:27:42.60] spk_0:
that’s a good timeline. Yeah, it gives you time toe to think ahead and be creative.

[00:27:47.44] spk_1:
Maximum advantage. Big news

[00:27:49.82] spk_0:
hook. I’m a piecemeal or by nature. You won’t really see me dive into something and completed all at once. I like to be ableto work on it and take a step back. Go back to it. Have the daily experience of your life. Inform some of the decisions that you make, You know, you keep living life and things happening there, like, you know, I’ll go back to this and maybe I’ll try it this way. So, um, so what is definitely We’ve been planning ahead and we’re excited.

[00:31:24.04] spk_1:
It’s a life practice. Piecemeal. You say piecemeal. I would say life, it’s a life practice you come back to things. Um okay, um let’s zoom, Let’s take our break. And when we come back, I want to talk a little about your experience as a black woman in fundraising and ah, survey that we have, uh, so hang on there. Okay, great. Alright. Thank you. Don’t walk out now. Time for. Stick to hello from Boise, Idaho. I was just there for a long weekend. Visiting dear friends. Um, and I recommend Boise on, by the way, it’s Boise, Boise. I mean, you don’t Boise, but it’s not Boise for you. East coasters. It’s Boise, Boise, Idaho. Um, I learned just like it’s Oregon, not Oregon. There’s no easy Oregon at the end of Oregon. Um, a little bit of a digression. So, Boise, what about it? It’s got mountains, beautiful mountain range, snow capped mountains in the winter and the spring even when the temperature is is, uh, more modest, you know, down below the beautiful, snowcapped mountains. Um, they take their beers very seriously. 16 brew houses in Boise Now, I did not get to sample all of them. I went to a couple. Uh, I can shout out, uh, powder powerhouse h A U s powerhouse. Very nice place. Um, 10 barrel, which happens to be downtown. Uh, those air to that that we went to there was a third one. I can’t remember. They also take their food very seriously. If you go downtown. Around where? Around where? Uh, 10 barrel is 8th, 8th Street and Main Street. Lots of restaurants and other brewpubs and breweries not serving food. Right along eighth and main. Um, lots of serious restaurants there. And I don’t mean serious upscale. Just very good food. Reminds me of Portland a lot. In that respect, they take this food very seriously. Um, what else about boys? Oh, just drive 10 minutes, 15 minutes. You’re out your way out of the city. We visited a winery, so I’m recommending Boise as a travel destination. And there’s more in my video. Um, and you will find that at dot com. And that is. Take two. Now, let’s, uh let’s continue a little more with Yolanda F. Johnson and upper singer to fundraiser. Whoa, Look at the bursting. Oh, man. When we get to live listener love, we’re bursting. But we’re not doing that now. Okay? Bursting I mean, there’s a lot at first were bursting with live listeners on We’re on Facebook Live to Oh, I guess I should do is all shout out All right, Aunt Mary. Mary Bob Largent. Hello, Rosemary Video. Love to see you. Thank you for being with us on Facebook. Give us give us a little Give us a love on Facebook and I’ll be happy to shout you out. All right, so all right. So the power in nonprofits is maintained by white men. Uh, they’re they’re overwhelmingly the board chairs, the board leadership, the CEOs, the C suite, the senior fundraisers. What’s been your your experience as a black woman doing fundraising in that culture?

[00:32:19.44] spk_0:
Well, coming from Nebraska, how’s it going? And it’s interesting that it is a national issue, is it not? You know, no matter where you are, even in a place is diverse. A ZX New York City. That’s still our reality. And, uh, it’s obvious that, uh, philanthropy would do well from continuing, um, diversity and my experience as an African American woman in the field, you know, You know, this year we did a diversity Brooke and I did a diversity and inclusion task force for wid because we were looking at the room and amazing women. Um, but the room could be a bit more diverse, you know? And so we wanted to think about that. One of the first questions was, you know, is the field already diverse? Does it exist that way? It’s just that people may not, um, come out and aren’t necessarily feeling as welcome for whatever reason, or, um, are they just not there? And so, because of some of these studies that have come out recently, I was I spoke at a case conference and diverse on diversity and fundraising in Indianapolis in April, and that was one of the things we talked about. Is diversifying that pipeline for fundraisers because you don’t necessarily see yourself,

[00:32:47.04] spk_1:
Did you have you come to any conclusions whether it’s, uh, there, there are there is greater representation in fundraising, but people are not coming out or there just isn’t the representation that we’d like to see

[00:32:59.91] spk_0:

[00:33:01.14] spk_1:
It is okay. I kind of think there’s more. The latter. They’re just not just not represented, but

[00:33:26.24] spk_0:
it’s both. It’s both because we have to make those efforts toward diversifying the pipeline. We have to look to the future. We have to look to see what’s happening now. We have to stay self aware and just aware in the profession. Um, and that’s the thing. You know, inclusion is the exact opposite of tokenism. So inclusion means that you’re naturally, organically there. You’re appreciated for what you’re bringing to the table. And when you don’t see diversity, sometimes that doesn’t come to mind. So one of the things with is gonna dio is really focus on that this coming year. And, uh, just make sure it’s on our mind, You know, if you have an opportunity to invite a speaker or toe work with different people and partners, Um, is there someone who’s just disqualified who may be a little more diverse? Um, thinking fairly, you know, they’re just disqualified again. Like I say, it’s not tokenism, but just making sure that’s on your mind, because when something is not on your mind, it’s, um it doesn’t exist. Okay,

[00:34:04.72] spk_1:
right. So, consciousness awareness consciousness. Yes. Critical first step, but necessary, but not sufficient. You know, there needs to be action. They need to be conscious. Action? Yes. Not just policies not just tokenism.

[00:34:40.04] spk_0:
Yes, I’m outcome oriented person. So I believe in the process. But I’m not interested in staying stuck there. So we have some definite recommendations that our task forces made to the board of directors that we’re gonna be implementing in the in the coming year. And so just toe elaborate a bit on my answer to your question. So, yes, there are fundraisers of color in the field, but as the cause effective study shows, you know, Yeah, um, mentor ship professional development, because, you know, they were still underrepresented. There’s more work to be done to get those. You know, um, professionals of color, all of the support that they need to survive and to thrive and at the same time work to be done to develop that pipeline so that we continue that into the future with great consciousness and then being intentional about it.

[00:35:49.54] spk_1:
I know that I personally have been paying more attention to this just within the past two years or so. Um, so but I don’t know if that s Oh, I see. So I Seymour conversations about this, but I don’t know if that’s because I’m participating Mawr and I’m or I’m thinking about it more. I woke. I woke, um, or if the conversations really are happening more frequently and there is greater awareness than there was three years ago, do you? What’s your sense? Do you do you think, Do you think there’s, uh, not not saying sufficient awareness or or action? But you feel like there’s more activity around diversity equity and inclusion now than there was just like three years ago?

[00:35:53.54] spk_0:
I do, yes, and strategically. So you know, I’m a strategic thinker.

[00:35:58.75] spk_1:
Meaning what?

[00:37:11.23] spk_0:
Uh, there’s been a lot that’s been going on for the past few years, but now people are really buckling down their understanding those exact, um, facts and figures and metrics, um, that they want to capture. And then we’re talking to each other more about how to move that forward. There was a great event, um, a week or so ago, on June 18th, it was held at the deep, and we there’s a committee, a host committee. I was on it. Um, one of the lead researchers for the study was on it, um, the a f p person who’s involved with their idea programming. Um, people from case. It was a pretty good host committee of us. And I’m sorry if I’m forgetting anyone and and then, um, on a barber barber as well whose? Ah, noted phenomenal fundraiser. We all got together to get the fundraisers of color together in New York City. And, you know, it was interesting because honest said to me, we’ve been doing this in D. C forever. Can’t believe, you know, like it’s interesting that New York hadn’t done it yet. And so we did. We got it done. We got together, um, divided. We fall united, we stand, and so we’re aware of each other more aware of each other. Now, instead of being siloed and in a vacuum of ourselves, um, for whatever reason, we can come together and work together and push everything forward, move the needle.

[00:37:38.33] spk_1:
Well, that moves that leads to empowerment. Exactly. Were working together. Okay, Um, so now you’re your personal experience as a as a fundraiser. You feel like that’s ah, anomalous for an African American woman? Um,

[00:38:54.82] spk_0:
somewhat I you know, I’ll give the greatest shout out of all to a woman named Lori Krugman from would be remiss if I didn’t mention her name, uh, jokingly call her my would mom. Sometimes she really brought me into the organization and and introduced me to so many different things and people that have to do with fundraising. But it takes a village, no matter what the color that transcends color lines. It takes a village of people sometimes to pull you up to support you, to help you get that professional development and to help you move forward and to encourage you. Um, it’s something that’s on my mind for young women of color. Of course, in the field. It’s something that personally is important to me because I think it does make a difference when you see someone who looks like you, just like, um, not only within the field, but even within your organizations. You know, Um, that kind of had gone over my head at first, and then I had a board member mentioned that to me where I I used to work and they said, You know, a lot of these kids are seeing you, and it makes a difference because they think that the executive offices, or, like the big bosses in the office, is up there in the executive director and all of that. And the fundraisers and philanthropy, That’s a whole other issue within it, you know? Do they really understand that this is a viable profession for them? You know, first, the profession had to get the respect it deserved on and then because, you know, we work hard and we’re educating this, and a lot of us have degrees that are focused upon this. We’ve studied the science of fundraising, and it should be fully respected. They

[00:39:11.86] spk_1:
used to be thinking that these event planners

[00:39:14.05] spk_0:
and right there, just out there

[00:39:17.53] spk_1:
holding your hand out and it just comes

[00:39:19.52] spk_0:
It’s like, No, no, no, no. We work very hard. Um, and so you have to have that first. And now we have to diversify. And we have toe really consider all of the different issues within the field.

[00:39:32.02] spk_1:
Um, the woman who you said you’d be remiss, uh, gave you guidance, Coach? Mentor? Um, she is at a white woman. It is Okay.

[00:39:44.32] spk_0:
Happens to be yes, but I had, um, some really wonderful African American women, obviously, who have been integral to my life. I had, you know, a good balance, but um,

[00:39:56.87] spk_1:
but it’s sharing the power, sharing the power. It’s important to have role models and mentors off of whatever ethnicity. Nationality?

[00:40:21.71] spk_0:
Yeah, we all have to work together. Because if you’re there and if things air imbalanced in the first place, then if white males air really? You know, at the the pinnacle of power, then you know. And what role do white females have Are females of whatever color, but you have to reach back, and you have to help people.

[00:40:34.41] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s why I say share the power. Uh, okay. Um, so you’ve had a, uh you’ve been fortunate and your and your obviously grateful,

[00:40:38.51] spk_0:
and I want to do everything I can for all of the

[00:40:45.92] spk_1:
president of wind. Now, you can lift up others, uh, and they’ll see a black woman in power at wind.

[00:40:50.01] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, I think that makes yeah, it makes a difference.

[00:41:05.21] spk_1:
Um, let’s talk a little about the this cause effective study. Okay. This is, uh, money, power and race. The lived experience of fundraisers of color. Um, are you familiar with what they did? I mean, speak to what they did. What the process was. Just interviews, etcetera. can you

[00:41:21.01] spk_0:
speak to? They did. Ah, lot of in depth work. Um, Judy and Cynthia, if you’re listening, this is the shout out to you. That’s the executive director of cause Effective. And then Cynthia Rhetoric who did a lot of work on that, and she actually engaged me. I was interviewed for this. They worked very hard at getting a diverse array of professionals of color to answer and to participate in the survey. Um, I was, ah, reader at the end as well. Um, another wonderful person. So Neil Omen. Um, I know he was a swell with a f p. And, uh, I’m very happy for them. I’m very proud of them. Of the work that they’ve done. This is a very important study, and I think it’s gonna be helpful. Helpful tool if we don’t set it away, you know, you have to keep these things out and keep

[00:42:23.50] spk_1:
remembering like the strategic plan that goes on the show. Yeah, cause effective, terrific organization. We’ve had guests on, um, Greg Cohen comes to mind he’s been on a couple of times. And then someone who, Uh oh. Now I feel bad. Someone who retired out of cause effective. She’s Greg Cohen’s neighbor in Brooklyn. Because I was out there. I was at their summer party last year, and they shared. There was a back shared backyard thing. Um, it’s not. It wasn’t Judy, though. I feel terrible now, Uh, she’s retired, so she probably doesn’t listen. Well, nobody listens to this show. E

[00:42:33.41] spk_0:
shouldn’t. Yeah, well, you

[00:45:48.49] spk_1:
just told me we’ll take it to make it. Fake it to make it that way. Um, okay, let’s take our let’s take our very last break, okay? And then we’ll talk more about the more about the survey study. Time for our last break. Did you like that? Take to throw back quote. There’s nothing as simple as dot drives. Our execution team meets once per week to sit down and go through our dot drives pipelines. It’s fun to watch them have a healthy dialogue and to see them get excited about their numbers rising towards their goals. Fun indeed. Watching numbers rise two goals dot drives has allowed us to take those relationships and bring them to a deeper level end quote. But there was little commentary in there. I’m sure you, uh you sussed that that was Wendy Adams, director of donor engagement at Patrick Henry. Family Service is prospect to donor. Simplified. Get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month, all on the listener landing page at. We’ve got but loads more time for this throwback with Yolanda F. Johnson from June 28th 2019 from Opera Singer to fundraiser. All right, now we gotta do the live listener Love. Uh, Steve Cook give you a shoutout on Facebook. Steve Cook joined us on Facebook and let’s let’s start abroad. There’s just so many I’m not even gonna use the languages. Like comes a et cetera. We’re just gonna go through where everybody is. Seoul, South Korea, Denmark. Jakarta, Indonesia. Tashkent, Uzbekistan. Who you’ve been with us before? It was Becca. Stand not the first time. Not not every week. Try to make it a little more regular. There I was. Becca stand. Would you please try? Toe should be with us every single week, but no live. Listen, love Thio. Hochi Minh City in Vietnam. Um, Porto Alegre, Brazil. Whoa! Tehran, Iran. Tehran has been with us before. Yes, not the first time. Glad to have you back. Live love to Tehran on Thio Toronto, Canada And now we made it to North America. So let’s spring in New York, New York. Three people. We’ve got multiple listeners. Looks like three while ago. Uh, right here in the city of New York. Uh, Gillette, New Jersey. We’ve got Brooklyn, New York, in, uh, we’ve got Clifton New Jersey. Wallkill New York. Woodhaven, New York. Bellmore, New York. All right, Staten Island. Staten Island is in Yes. Welcome Staten Island. Live love to Staten Island. So who’s not with us? Bronx and Queens Chicken. Maybe there. Maybe they’re masked. You know what? They could be masked. I’m sure that I’m sure Bronx and Queens are with us. So live listener, love, live love to you. Thank you so much for being with us. And for those of us on those of us those of you with us on Facebook live love to you as well on the podcast. Pleasantries to the to the over 13,000 that I keep saying it’s nowhere near that, but, uh, no, we have 13 over 13,000 podcast listeners. Um, listening in the time shift. Wherever you squeeze us in. I don’t know. Weekends. You binge. Listen, you spend Sunday listening to hours of podcasts on end. Thank you. Pleasantries to you. I’m glad that we’re in your podcast Library. Pleasantries to the podcast, listeners.

[00:45:58.05] spk_0:
Pleasant. That’s one of my It’s almost like a therapy. Oh, it’s almost like the lips, the teeth, the tip of the tongue, the pleasant pleasantries to the podcast Listeners

[00:46:09.22] spk_1:
Podcast pleasantries. I’m a big fan of a big fan of, uh, what did you What was the little phrase you just said? The lips, the teeth, the tip of the tongue, lips, the teeth, The tip of the tongue? Yes. Is that little exercise? Yes, it is. Right before you go on stage,

[00:46:19.26] spk_0:
isn’t just toe enunciate. Like I said, native speakers of English. Sometimes when you’re, uh, enunciating on stage, it could be difficult to decipher what they’re saying. And so a lot of deep bonds going on and what we think is over doing it. But that’s what it takes for the audience to actually hear what we’re saying.

[00:46:38.78] spk_1:
It does the lips, the teeth, the tip of the tongue. Okay, what do you do right before you go on performance, right. The minute before your first appearance on stage. What are you doing as a thing as a singer, I mean, as a Well, I guess there’s any kind of performer. What are you doing in that last minute?

[00:47:01.58] spk_0:
Um, I’m saying a little prayer, okay? And I’m getting excited because I’m ready to share this with the audience.

[00:47:07.99] spk_1:
Your blood pressure’s

[00:47:10.21] spk_0:
sometimes, but not really. I’m pretty. Chill. I’m ready. Thio, go do it. If I’m prepared that I said I will never be that person backstage like, Oh, my gosh. I know I didn’t read any of this stuff, but I sure hope it goes okay, That’s terrible. Um, and so I just It is what it is at that moment, right? And so I just get excited and go out and share it. All right, Well, thank you for sharing a little prayer to Yes, definitely

[00:48:06.27] spk_1:
prayer. Alright. Um okay, So the cause effective study was it was interviews. There were surveys, lots of personal interviews. Yeah, people of color. Remember to stay close to them. There we go. Okay. Well, I wanna hear everything that you say. Um, so they learned some things. Um Why d I is important. This is interesting. Now you’ve mentioned earlier with you said we’d has a diversity and inclusion. You don’t include Uh um equity equity. Uh, it’s an I d I It doesn’t matter. I mean, were you short changing people because you didn’t include the ease?

[00:48:13.95] spk_0:
No equities? Not at all. Um, I guess it could have been a debt if, but it’s a d t i f. Um, the equity is inferred in that. It’s just that it’s not called the d. I think, and people have different thoughts and opinions on what each word means. You know, some people don’t like diversity as much anymore, and they’d rather focus on equity. E

[00:48:32.73] spk_1:
i e I All right. It’s like L g b t q plus. I mean, now we put the plus until it’s all inclusive. Just a part of it. If you’re not LGBT or Q, you’ll have to just be in the plus because okay, what did you say before? D T d t I f

[00:48:47.44] spk_0:
d I T diversity and inclusion task force.

[00:49:27.67] spk_1:
Okay, okay. We have jargon jail on. I hate to see imprisoned even for a short even for a short term. Um, so we know, I think we know why it matters. Um, you know, interesting. Making explicit that money is power. And for fundraisers of color, you know, they’re they’re seeking money from the people who have it, which are largely white and male. So that’s a that creates a dynamic for fundraisers of color that, um, white fundraisers don’t have toe sort of deal with overcome your depending on the opinions of the people they’re trying to get the money from.

[00:50:22.36] spk_0:
Well, and I wanna add to that whole diversity discussion. Donors of color, you know, they’re out there donors of color and tapping into them. You know, just like we have toe work on the pipeline. We have to support people who are already in the field, and we have to think outside of the box. And remember everyone who’s been blessed with, um, the ability to be a philanthropist. And what does that even mean? Now, you know when you think that it’s so pie in the sky, but it’s not. It’s right in front of you to be a philanthropist in many ways. You know, the Indiana University Women’s Philanthropy Institute. We had a partnership event with them in May, where they revealed some of the women give study and, you know, adult in tow. You know, how do you define being a philanthropist? So we have philanthropists of color that need to be tapped into as well That air, um, came be called ignored. Sometimes I think

[00:50:30.26] spk_1:
you find that you feel like we’re not reach. The community is not reaching out toe donors of color wealth, wealthy folks of color.

[00:50:33.78] spk_0:
I think it’s a complex issue, but I think I could say yes to that in some ways. Um, but remember that a donor of color, um, we’ll also have probably had certain life experiences as well. So you know,

[00:50:48.76] spk_1:
it’s Yeah, we’ll have

[00:50:50.06] spk_0:
Yes. Okay.

[00:51:09.32] spk_1:
I feel like we’re not We’re not We’re not getting thio. So I’m surprised that that you find that because if we’re if we’re trying to get support for our organization, I mean, it ought toe come from anybody who has the means exactly the means to support us. E mean, money is color blind.

[00:51:10.57] spk_0:
Amen to

[00:52:05.95] spk_1:
that. Okay, that’s an interesting insight. I never I have to think more about that. Pay more attention. I’ve never. I’ve never thought about that. All right, Uh, you’re full of good ideas. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Uh huh. Mhm. Okay, s. So I think we understand why the, uh d matters like we’ve sort of flush that out. So? So some of what they they say something interesting. Fundraising reflects and magnifies the racial hierarchies of our culture. That’s sort of what we’re scratching at. You know, um, it’s a, you know, fundraising is, uh there’s there’s just inherent, irrespective of people’s color. Uh, there’s it’s a It’s a fundamental power subservient relationship. You have money, and I’m asking for it. I mean, I do fundraising. I do plan to giving fundraising People of wealth have money, and I’m pursuing it. Eso there’s

[00:52:09.78] spk_0:
you’re definitely pursuing people that have a certain amount of

[00:52:12.27] spk_1:
Yeah, Well, now, modest people of modest means could do plan. Gift to That’s true. Let’s not forget, okay? Actually, just like anybody could put will request for 1000 or $5000 in there will

[00:52:22.92] spk_0:
probably And that goes to the same point of What does it mean to be a philanthropist? You know, if you’re giving $500 whatever you have to give. You’re still helping a cause. It matters.

[00:52:31.45] spk_1:
A lot of people don’t think of themselves as philanthropists, but they indeed they are. It doesn’t really matter. I mean, they’re supporting organizations. But people who write $20 checks, $50 checks, they don’t they don’t think of themselves as philanthropists.

[00:52:43.42] spk_0:
And I think that’s what I you is trying to get people to think differently, especially with women donors toe value yourself and to understand, um, that contribution that that you’re making to society through whatever

[00:52:54.68] spk_1:
the size well, they understand they’re contributing. What what’s the importance of? You could educate me again. Eso I’m trainable just need the ideas. What? What? What’s the importance then of them recognizing themselves as philanthropists?

[00:53:08.25] spk_0:
Because it empowers you in a different way. When I see myself a certain way, um, it allows me toe think differently. And when I’m making those decisions, uh, it might allow me toe to get involved with an organization on a deeper level on bring in my network. You know, we could talk about give and get so it can be open lots of different doors and just change the way that people think about themselves and about, um, the ways that they give.

[00:53:33.59] spk_1:
So we should be encouraging our donors to think of themselves as philanthropists. Yeah, including the 20 and $50 donors.

[00:53:39.70] spk_0:
You’re a philanthropist, and we appreciate your gift and

[00:53:42.96] spk_1:
that. Well, there’s always that. Yeah. I’m just trying to distinguish the philanthropy. Think of yourself as a philanthropy. Yes.

[00:53:48.55] spk_0:
And then, you know, it’s that strategic thinking. So, you know, it’s that same story of the whoever it is the janitor, somebody who passes away and leaves five million

[00:53:57.54] spk_1:
dollars right there lived a very modest life. They 40 year old car, they were driving or whatever, right? And then they have millions of dollars to leave. You

[00:54:04.70] spk_0:
never know you can you never. You can’t judge a book by its cover. And so you never know what’s going on. You treat everybody with dignity and respect and appreciate their gift. And you never know what network they might bring in or, um, people they can introduce you to.

[00:55:00.94] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s all true. Yeah, it’s just a philanthropist thing. Getting getting your modest donors small dollar donors to think of themselves as philanthropists. Interesting. Okay. Um, all right, So this is the, uh, talking about the magnifying, the racial hierarchies. Um, and we just have a couple minutes left. All right, so let’s leave the survey. That’s enough of that survey. Yeah. So, again, it’s money, power and race. The lived experience of fundraisers of color. It’s published by cause effective, which is, I believe it’s cost effective dot or ge. And now that you have the name of the survey study, you should have no trouble, obviously finding it and check it out. Okay, Um, a couple minutes left as, ah, professional woman in in fund raising your own practice, What would you like? Thio? Would you like to leave our listeners with?

[00:55:48.99] spk_0:
Well, um, I just like to reiterate how honored I am to be leading with in this 40th anniversary year. I’m excited about I’m continuing the work of my practice. We already talked a bit about events, and I also specialize in campaigns and in going in and assessing what’s happening with small and medium sized development departments and helping them to get to the next level. So I look forward to continuing all of that work. Um, and I also look forward to continuing singing have a vocal workshop coming up in a couple of weeks. And then, of course, the console again August 10th at the amphitheater at the Hudson River Museum. And it’s gonna be It’s deep, you know, using music, using art as that medium to spark the dialogue, the conversation, the thought about these current issues and you cannot make. Yeah, you can’t make this up, though. The libretto has not been changed. It’s 70 years old, and it could have been on the news last week.

[00:56:12.03] spk_1:
Really, it’s fast. Okay, when does when’s the opening?

[00:56:14.63] spk_0:
It’s when we talk. It’s a one night only thing. It’s August 10th 8 p.m. August 10

[00:56:18.42] spk_1:
2019. If you’re in the New York City area,

[00:56:21.10] spk_0:
check Yolanda. If johnson dot com

[00:57:34.32] spk_1:
Please Dio. That’s who she is. She is. Hold on to F. Johnson. Her company is Y F. J Eyes. Her company is at Y. F. J hyphen consulting dot com. Women in Development. You’ll find that W I D n Y dot or GE, and she is at Yolanda F. Johnson and thank you so much. My privilege. I’m back. It’s February 2021. Now, next week riel listening. Let’s talk. My guest will be Emily Taylor. If you missed any part of this week’s show from 2019, I beseech you, find it at dot com were sponsored by Turn to Communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives. Prospect to donor Simplified Our creative producers. Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that information, Scotty, do with me next week for big ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.