Nonprofit Radio for December 12, 2022: Take Heart, Take Action

 

Trathen HeckmanTake Heart, Take Action

That’s Trathen Heckman’s book. He urges you to find and live your inspiration through reverence, ripples and relationships, which will lead you to resilience. He talks us through his thinking.

 

 

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[00:00:36.06] spk_0:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d need counter pulsation if you broke my heart with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Take heart, take action. That’s Trafton Hickman’s book. He urges you to find and live your inspiration through reverence, ripples and relationships which will lead you to resilience. He talks us through his thinking

[00:00:50.79] spk_1:
on

[00:01:17.30] spk_0:
Tony’s take two. I’m cheering for you. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome Trevathan Heckman to the show. He is an award winning nonprofit leader with over 20 years experience cultivating grassroots groups and community networks. He’s founder and director of Daily Acts organization, which specializes in unleashing the power of community to address the climate crisis.

[00:01:27.59] spk_1:
He

[00:01:44.62] spk_0:
lives in the Petaluma River watershed where he grows food medicine and wonder while working to compost apathy and lack daily attacks is at daily attacks dot org. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:46.60] spk_1:
Thanks so much. tony it’s great to be here.

[00:01:50.74] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to have you. Big pleasure. I love your

[00:01:51.93] spk_1:
book. Very

[00:01:53.51] spk_0:
inspirational. I’m glad we get, I’m glad we got a chance to talk for a good amount of time. And this is no no 15 or 20 minute run through nonprofit radio We we uh, we go deeper,

[00:02:06.71] spk_1:
but there’s

[00:02:12.65] spk_0:
all again, there’s always so much we can do folks you’ve just got to buy this very good book. You’re encouraging. Well, first of all, let’s make sure everybody knows where the Petaluma river watershed is. Where are you

[00:02:20.01] spk_1:
were in Sonoma county, which is in northern California?

[00:02:24.40] spk_0:
I think most people know Sonoma for, for lush wine country. Are you, are you a fan of wine connoisseur of wine or not at all? You drink soda? What

[00:02:36.14] spk_1:
do you

[00:02:37.23] spk_0:
have any relationship

[00:02:38.59] spk_1:
Since I’m a gardener, we’ve made a bunch of honey wine over the year beers. I have good friends who are winemakers and so tend to enjoy all the fermented beverages.

[00:03:08.10] spk_0:
Okay, thank you for reminding us that wine is indeed fermented along with, along with chocolate and coffee. All right. I did a show once. It was, it was not a successful show. Long time listeners will remember this many years ago because we were doing the podcast for 12 years, I had a show on fermentation with someone named Sandor

[00:03:11.37] spk_1:
katz

[00:03:12.73] spk_0:
katz, but he goes by Sandor crowd because sauerkraut is fermented, you know Sandor,

[00:03:29.61] spk_1:
I know who he is, he’s pretty famous for his work in a couple of spots. Actually does have a little mention of him in the book. Um, making the connection between sort of homegrown gardens fermentation and agents of fermentation agents of transformation, how you apply that to community organizing things.

[00:04:01.36] spk_0:
I, I had Sander on when, when I was it was early years of the podcast and I thought, you know, let’s just do random shows about completely the things that are completely off topic for nonprofits, let’s do a show on fermentation. So I think I had seen an article where he was quoted or something and uh I had sand or on and then I, you

[00:04:03.15] spk_1:
know

[00:04:28.17] spk_0:
like 10% into the show, I realized this was a mistake but I wasn’t gonna, I wasn’t gonna un invite him or anything. So we, we talked about wine and chocolate and his beloved sauerkraut and the value and medicinal, the therapeutics of fermentation and we, we did a full show on fermentation. But uh then I I was going to continue that Until I was about 10% into this show. The next show off the topic was going to be um

[00:04:34.98] spk_1:
I was gonna

[00:05:26.56] spk_0:
have a paid santa claus so, but I I bagged the idea of going off topic and and and now of course in 2023 everybody knows, you know, podcasts or niche. You stick to your niche. If somebody wants to learn about fermentation, they’ll go to the fermentation podcast if they want to know about being a paid santa claus, there’s probably half a dozen podcasts about that career path if you want to take it. So, but there was early days, I didn’t really know what I was doing in podcasting. So we had a show on fermentation and Sandor was Sandor Sandor Kraut was the guest. But um back to, let’s go back to now, sorry, take heart take action a little digression about fermentation, you’re encouraging us to to find and live our inspiration and I find the I find the book inspirational, but in the opening pages it might even be the introduction or so talk about find and live your inspiration,

[00:05:35.54] spk_1:
help

[00:05:36.09] spk_0:
us ground that a little bit. What do you mean there?

[00:07:13.39] spk_1:
Sure, you know, some of the deepest intrinsic motivators as human beings are around learning new things and finding your passion. And then if you could turn your passion is something that has a larger sense of purpose that does something good, then that’s incredibly powerful. And then if you have agency to continue to do that, that is incredibly motivating as well as um sort of building mastery getting better at something. And so, you know, this idea that the world is so there’s so many overwhelming problems, it’s easy for people to get overwhelmed by the scale of the problems, it’s easy for nonprofit leaders to get overwhelmed by, you know, how big our mission is. Um and it’s easy to lose sight of our deeper purpose, why we started, why we do the work we do. And so it’s important to continue to lean into um you know, this idea of inspiration as a divine wind that moves through you or something that connects you to something larger where you feel a sense of passion and a purpose and doing something good. Um so, you know, as far as sustaining and difficult work day after day, year after year in some small way, staying connected to your joy and your inspiration and how you’re part of this bigger thing is incredibly important and not easy to do. You know, growing organizations, raising families dealing with multiple confluence in crises at the same time, there’s a lot to deal with. Um and so I always love that we use internally in our organizations quote from Gandhi of, I’m so busy today, I’m gonna meditate twice as long what we tend to do when things get difficult is we threw out good habits, good rest exercise, whatever it is. And we just kind of burrow in. And so it’s important to remember when we’re doing really challenging work and we’re in challenging times. We have to double down on the things that help us take heart and take action that help connect us to that source of joy and inspiration and power that we get agency from

[00:07:38.14] spk_0:
and you encourage us to do this through daily actions. I love, I love the idea of just daily actions like you say, reclaim the power in your daily actions.

[00:09:09.55] spk_1:
What’s the only power that any of us have? We, you know, individual actions alone will not solve the climate crisis and address systemic racism and these big issues, but it’s our only power. And so we have to use our power to, you know, as has been said, be the change and affect collective action. Um and then, you know like classic Stephen Covey and other people of have a big circle of concern. We could doom scroll all day and be aware of all the problems, but focus on your circle of influence, focus on your actions and the things you can influence. When you focus on your influence your influence and power to affect positive change grows, you could build momentum, you could build trust and relationship with others to where then you could start to affect bigger change together. So each of us, whether you’re an individual or a nonprofit leader or a board member or a volunteer, um re centering in our own power, our own agency, our own ability to be proactive and move things forward then enables us to do the more difficult work of shared path finding of of finding our collective voice and collective action and then, you know, for nonprofits to then be larger forces for good. We have to work with a lot of diverse agencies and organizations at different players to try and drive bigger change. And each layer you get out gets more complicated and more difficult from the individual scale to the organizational scale to then stay an organization working in a lot of partnerships to them, building coalitions and so centering in ourselves our own power and building those skills and practices and then bringing that up to each new scale is really important.

[00:09:27.34] spk_0:
And running through the book is gardening

[00:09:30.95] spk_1:
garden

[00:09:45.35] spk_0:
your garden metaphors throughout you have you’ve replaced lawns with with more sustainable gardens through the organization, through daily acts organization. Um talk about

[00:09:46.35] spk_1:
how

[00:09:47.16] spk_0:
gardening fits fits like in your life too in your life and through the, you know, in the message of the book

[00:11:57.97] spk_1:
sure there’s a couple of layers, well a lot a third of americans garden and so being exposed to, you know, so gardening is a big impact on me and daily access built a lot of its core strategy around landscape transformations and things that enable people to practically take action where you live to to do landscape solutions that are low cost, low tech nature source and people powered. And so there’s a lot of specifics for for us as our organization around these small, accessible actions and literally regenerating nature right where you live, it could be on a balcony, could be in a rental unit, could be in your front yard. But then whether you garden or not Understanding the underlying ecological principles of an ecological garden helps you understand how our planet works and you can apply that to a lot of things. So whether you’re a gardener or not, the lessons you learn in a garden in the metaphor by learning about how nature functions in a practical, accessible garden are really powerful for me. You know, I was waking up about 30 years ago, just what even then felt like an overwhelming state of our people on our planet and I started get exposed to these people who are regenerating farms and forests and they were aware of all the hurt but they were just, I didn’t understand words like presence and purpose back then, but they were connected to something deeper and richer and I was like, I don’t know what the hell’s in their wheaties, but whatever it is, I want some of it. And so I started going to these places where these people like pioneers, annual conference in different herb conferences and things where people were doing this really powerful regenerative work. And that led me to walking through a gate in west marin County into this what was formerly a water thirsty chemical intensive lawn and had been transformed into this lush taken forest of food and medicine and habitat and it was incorporating billions of years of nature’s wisdom right in the backyard. And it was then that I realized that my life and our world are really deficient in this kind of vitality but that we could regenerate nature. We can regenerate communication community. We can regenerate our core connections to ourself right in the backyard. And that not only do we grow a lot of gardens, but we can apply the lessons you learn in the garden to organizing neighbors, to organizing and transforming our communities.

[00:12:16.45] spk_0:
Your garden is important to you for in your own daily actions.

[00:13:09.13] spk_1:
It is, it’s literally I step out the door and its nature connection. There’s a light drizzle yesterday and it’s filling up the rain tank and it’s causing the soil to uh you know, get re moisturize which help sequester carbon, which dresses are climate emissions. We have a ton of different food, medicine and habitat growing half a dozen different plants at any one time. We give away food the neighbors. Um it’s a source of incredible community connection. People stop by and they want to talk so so for us it’s definitely, and at some level to address our crises, we need more people growing local food and we need to sequester carbon and we need to address drought and desertification in these major issues and a lot of people can address that into their daily lives. But again, even if you don’t garden, understanding the lessons that we can learn about how nature operates, which you can learn and garden are really powerful to apply to our organizations and our other change making work,

[00:13:18.40] spk_0:
understanding the ecosystem.

[00:13:25.42] spk_1:
And there’s this idea, there’s a great book called leading from the emerging future by auto Sharma and Catrine coffer. And it’s around emergent leadership and it’s this idea of moving from ego ecosystem to ecosystem, the ecosystem of being self focused to understanding at an individual scale, at an organizational scale, at a community scale. How do we fit with others? How do we work as a part of a larger hole to affect positive change in our communities.

[00:13:51.71] spk_0:
You tell us that reverence plus ripples plus relationships will equal resilience.

[00:13:59.40] spk_1:
So

[00:13:59.71] spk_0:
I’d like to that’s a great uh great organizing principle. I’d like to talk about these, these are s plus, I happen to love alliteration. So I was very, very appreciative. I have another one somewhere in my notes, I want to point out that I loved. Um but reverence, what what is you sort of say, sit skillfully, you know, in the present moment. But you

[00:14:52.95] spk_1:
Sure. And one piece of context before is a lot of people have asked me over the years like how has such a small organization as daily acts affect so much community scale change. And then how have I stayed sustained in this difficult work for two decades plus. And so the four R’s reverence, ripples, relationships and resilience are also daily X organizations for core values and operating principles. And so the structure of the book has a sequential flow that you can apply to yourself as an individual or you can apply it as an organizational scale. And even if your values are different kind of our point is especially covid difficult times of now for all of us, I think we have to re center on who we are and why do we exist and what’s our mission and what our core truths. So that’s kind of, you know represented throughout the book that this is the secret sauce of how we do things. And

[00:15:22.63] spk_0:
as you mentioned earlier, best to start with what we have the most control over ourselves.

[00:15:28.00] spk_1:
Exactly.

[00:15:29.01] spk_0:
And then scale.

[00:16:49.85] spk_1:
Yeah. So so the, the idea of the four R’s is you know, first start with your heart, there is a lot that is heartbreaking in our lives in our world and nonprofits are working to address really important missions and difficult work. And so for for an individual and organization or an organization or beyond re centering on what’s the intersection of where you know, the thing that breaks your heart, the issues you want to address, meet your, your heart’s greatest inspiration. And so if you find that inspiration of what breaks your heart and what deeply inspires you again as a person as an organization, that’s an incredible source of power. And then there’s this also, you know, sort of like a driving intent. There’s a definition I cite in the book from author Deng Ming DAO, that said, reverence is the stately determination to make something worthy of the materials in the moment. Um and so as leaders, you’re working with this, this moment right here on this call and this fall seasonal pulling in moment and this big crazy climate, economic political moment. There’s a lot of layers to the, to the moment and kind of our job is to make sense of how those things fit together and then bring it down in actual ways that help us achieve our mission and sustain our work and our people. Um so starting with your heart and that intersection is the first piece and then once you you’re aware of like what breaks your heart and what inspires you to action, then it goes to action and that’s ripples and that’s this idea be the change you wish to see. It’s about taking action in your life. It’s about taking action to find and use your voice and then honing your compass as a person. What’s the purpose? Vision values? What are all the things that help show you true north?

[00:17:16.97] spk_0:
And I want to I want to take these in in pieces

[00:17:19.77] spk_1:
because

[00:17:37.88] spk_0:
we have the full, you know, we have a full hour together. So I’d like to yeah. Um you know part of what you talk about in in reverence is is you know, be willingness to to make changes and changes a very difficult thing for a lot of people it made. I mean it could be something as simple as a change in a daily routine which you advocate and urge or it could be something as big as a change in a marriage or or a career or a job

[00:17:52.53] spk_1:
help

[00:17:52.89] spk_0:
us through. You know, the the difficulty the fears that a lot of people have around even you know, sort of simple change,

[00:19:38.10] spk_1:
there’s there’s so much to that, but just simple version is most people have incredibly hard time will change at any scale as you note. And so knowing that if we’re trying to change our say it selves to make the world a better place and help inspire others to change. How do we address those barriers? The fears, the insecurities? The resistance is that come with that change. And and again, starting with what inspires and empowers you is a great way to go. Go to what you’re drawn towards changes easier when there’s something really compelling and you’re learning and you’re focusing on things your pay passionate about and things you could have agency and that you could affect and you feel a sense of control and you can start to build a lot of little wins in that way. Um and having, you know, having mindfulness or movement practices are really valuable things that help us get present and recognize when the fear comes up. Um, you know, victor, franko survived. Nazi concentration camp, you know, family spoke about, you know, our true power. Is this an instant in this instance between sort of something happens in the world. And how do we react? He says it much more eloquently, as I quote in the book, but in that instant is the source of our true power. Do we respond? Out of fear, out of lack, out of anger, those things? Or can we take a breath and recenter and choose our response. So doing things that help us get present, help us act from our heart that help us focus on what we feel inspired and empowered and connected to are all great tools to remove some of those barriers.

[00:21:45.94] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. If you want to be a thought leader in your field, you need to have relationships with people who publish thoughts because they’re the ones who will get you heard journalists, op ed editors, bloggers, podcasters and other content publishers. These are the folks you want to get to know before you want to be heard so that when you want to be heard, they already know who you are. They’re more likely to take your call, reply to your email. Turn to can help you set up these relationships, anything guaranteed you guaranteed to get hurt and get press. No, no. But do you greatly increase the odds if you’re calling on someone who you already know you already have a relationship with when you want to be heard? Yeah. Yeah. Turn to has the relationships and they are former journalists. So they know how to help you set up relationships with people like journalists and bloggers and podcasters. Turn to communications. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now, back to take heart. Take action. Say a little more about the value of a daily movement practice. And you even have a page in the book which uh as I had told you before we started recording, I need a hard copy of books. That’s, that’s the way I work. One of the reasons is because I tear pages out. So I, you have, you have a daily movement practice called. Well that happens to uh let’s

[00:21:48.01] spk_1:
see what

[00:21:48.89] spk_0:
happens to be page 71 because I tore it out of the book because I, I wanna, so it’s no longer no longer in my copy. I can’t pass it. Maybe I’ll pass it on, but I’ll have to make a photocopy and stick it back in for whoever I give the book to. Um, but it’s an example of a simple daily uh daily movement practice this towel qigong, but generally why, why you’re such an advocate of daily daily movement practice.

[00:24:33.02] spk_1:
You know, there’s, I found over the last 20 or more years, habits and practices in general, there’s a whole huge section of the second section of the book on ripples which just digs into habits and practices and developing what’s called a keystone of core practice of hundreds of practices. I apply every day from a core morning routine where I ground and I practice gratitude and I go over my vision of my purpose and my values and things that recenter, my compass to journaling to Recenter when I take a shower, a range of meditation practices. And so I think the most important habit of practices, the habit or practice of acquiring new have and practices and refining existing ones because they’re, you know, there’s a quote in the book, I said, I’m not gonna remember the quotes offhand but Aristotle said something to the effect of we are what we do repeatedly excellence then is not an act but a habit. There’s a lot of great quotes that have talked about, there’s this idea of, but wherever you go there you are of of the regular practice of shaping ourselves and it’s true and organizations of shaping cultures. Um and so to me and I read a bunch of years ago and you know, Stephen Covey book of famous leadership author, this idea about spending one hour in the morning, the core Four of his seven habits, the seventh habit sharpening the saw is about honing your your compass in a daily practice about how one hour a day will improve your sleep and every aspect of your life. And I was like Wow, that’s kind of a big statement. But for 20 plus years of having a core practice, I firmly believe in those words and I found them to be true myself. Um so I think you know, don’t get overwhelmed by trying to do it all, you just start small if it’s, it could be like if you want to pick up a meditation practice, remove the barrier that saying that I’m gonna, I’m gonna meditate one minute a day or I’m just gonna write down three pieces of gratitude each day, do something that just gets you started and then you often find once you get going, you have inspiration, momentum to go a little longer and you just keep on building from there and then when you fall off the habit, you just put yourself back on, you don’t make a big deal of it, but developing from movement practices to rituals to start and close your day to good habits when you get really emotionally triggered or thrown off, how do you re center? Um I think developing good habits and practice is just one of the most important things we could do to be fulfilled human beings and then effectively want, especially if you want to be effective humans and leaders in our work,

[00:25:13.99] spk_0:
you say that we only care for and respect what we understand and feel connected to, so talk about permaculture and Mark Cohen and bark the organization in Belize share some of that with us.

[00:27:35.11] spk_1:
Sure, so and I frame up in the book of you know and sharing how we’ve been able to do what we’ve done effectively and how to stay sustained, kind of like I said the book sequentially lays out in a framework anyone could apply, but then a lot of more personal stories and experience in the first couple of sections that how I became who I am and lead to helping create daily ax and so permaculture, Mark Cohen the bellies Agroforestry Research Center, you mentioned are these some of these key reference points that kind of cracked open my mind and paradigm that there’s a different way to be and I didn’t know what any of it was, I’m like wow, what that is this idea chip and dan heath right about called bright spots, you know, when there’s a lot of gloominess out there, you look for the bright spots of who’s doing something different and that creates a roadmap of success. And so the belly’s Agra Forrester Research Center is this incredible jungle farm in southern Belize that I got to spend a good amount of time at over a decade. And part of why I start going there was I met this guy Mark Cohen, who’s a permaculture teacher at a conference and I was just like what is this guy doing? I just need to spend more time with him, he has a level of awareness and brightness, I just want to spend more time with and and use a permaculture teacher and for folks who are new to permaculture, it’s this ecological design science that’s rooted in the core ethics of caring for the earth and caring for people and ensuring a fair share and it’s this accessible, you know, you can apply it to your home to your life, to your neighborhood, to your organization to regenerate the world around you, it’s it’s really accessible, practical um toolkit, it’s really good stuff and so permaculture is most generally known for being applied to farms and landscapes and that and so seeing it applied at the scale of you know, an Agra Forrester Research Center is really powerful and then going to the permaculture into the northern California, I mentioned that backyard garden where I saw all these permaculture principles applied um was incredibly powerful. And so in essence though like the take home message is for for mark and other reference points of mine and then places like bark and the permaculture garden is exposure to transform people and transformed play cases has an incredibly transformative effect on us. And and so that impacted me personally and then we use those core strategies to grow daily acts over the years because when people get exposed to people in places that are operating in a different way, it’s a very inspiring and infectious and you want to figure out what that is and how can you do it,

[00:28:02.70] spk_0:
you encourage us to take heartbreak and use it as a catalyst for positive action.

[00:28:06.60] spk_1:
So

[00:28:06.84] spk_0:
tell, tell us, you know, tell us the story of your heartbreak that you’re telling the story in the book and and how you how you transform that to to positive action.

[00:29:32.06] spk_1:
Yeah, I started daily attacks shortly after the intersection of 9 11, you know, big national tragedy, huge loss of life and then my mother suddenly died about a month later and there was this confluence of sort of national and personal heartbreak um unfortunately I have been in these recent years, been exposed to all these positive solutions and models. And so when the heartbreak did hit me, it, you know, it kind of really catalyzed me as tragedy often does, it makes people step up and say, hey, we need to do something different, we need to be different. A lot of good comes out of heartbreak consistently. You look at all the great organizing efforts that come out of all the tragedies of recent years. Um and so it’s a vital catalyst which is why having those inspiring reference points to pull from, to go, okay, what am I going to do differently? And you look to what are the things that people and the things that really inspire you? And so, you know, those were the initial heartbreaks that got me going and anybody who knows who does this work through time is staying awake to the state of our world. There’s a lot of heartbreak out there. Um and so this, this idea that Joanna Macy speak about of the heart that breaks many times is big enough to contain the whole world. And so heartbreak doesn’t feel good and we often want to go away from those things. But it’s sort of, that’s where the idea of reverence of finding the intersection of what breaks your heart and what inspires your heart to start to remove that barrier of avoiding what hurts us and leaning into it with some good support. It’s a powerful vehicle to affect positive change and to transform our lives in our communities.

[00:30:02.40] spk_0:
That section of the book. You have a quote from paris a Pinkola estes

[00:30:08.24] spk_1:
s

[00:30:49.86] spk_0:
and I’m gonna read it. Ours is not the task to fix the entire world at once, but to mend the part that is within our reach. One of the most calming and powerful things you can do in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. Struggling souls catch light from others who are fully lit and willing to show it. I love the idea that it’s, you know, you can you can empower others by, you know, shining your own light.

[00:30:53.68] spk_1:
And it

[00:31:06.60] spk_0:
goes back to, you know, living, you’re finding and living your inspiration. You know, you’re unique. And if you can show your light to the two others struggling souls, you can you can help others

[00:31:37.03] spk_1:
exactly well, and that’s what I found personally. Um, and then within that too, there’s some other good operating instructions it talks about. You don’t have to fix the entire little once. Focus on the part within your reach. That’s the same thing as that Stephen Covey idea of your circle of influence. Have the daily calendar. One of our volunteers produces on my wall and has a great quote, I’m looking at for this month from the Talmud that says, do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it. And so how do we find our part to lean in of B with the heartbreak and then

[00:31:48.55] spk_0:
re

[00:31:49.05] spk_1:
center on, Okay, what, what’s, what’s my part of that work?

[00:32:09.47] spk_0:
This is also the uh, part of the book where we talk about reverence, where you have the uh alliteration that I appreciate because I appreciate them generally regularly remembering to reverently recenter. So, you know, we sort of to me that speaks to self care, re centering yourself,

[00:32:16.73] spk_1:
taking

[00:32:17.25] spk_0:
time to do

[00:32:18.41] spk_1:
that regularly

[00:32:19.98] spk_0:
and reverently

[00:33:32.28] spk_1:
and and doing it more than you would think again that Gandhi quote of, I’m so busy to meditate twice as long. I think a lot of us with our responsibilities for families, community, our organizations, we say, oh, I don’t have time to deal with that. That’s self indulgent. But for us to be able to show up at our best and, and and be really present to skillfully path fine with others in difficult situations. We really need to double down on our self care in practice self compassion as well as we’re practicing compassion for others in the world. It’s just really important. And it’s great to see in recent years we call it an organization, personal ecology or mind body medicine practice, but this increase self care, especially for change agents in the world. Um, I think I think most of us could use more of it and you look at the difficulty of recent years, like everybody, nonprofits, leaders, communities are going through so much. It’s really important. And now, you know, december, we’re in this moment where the seasons and the earth are pulling in. Yet our schedules usually continue to go full force for fundraising for the end of the year. We’re planning for next year, all of that. So there’s a lot of forces that, you know, we need to step up to. But it is important. It’s an important belief shift. I think that taking care of yourself is is a powerful step. Like they say, on a plane, put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others. Right?

[00:33:48.81] spk_0:
While I was preparing, reading the book and thinking about our our conversation, It occurred to me that

[00:33:56.39] spk_1:
in

[00:35:07.03] spk_0:
the past six or eight weeks I’ve I’ve had more shows about self care team care. Uh, there was one guest is uh, as a researcher in building relationships, you know, being good to your friends, finding friends that are supportive and then being good to your friends. Um, had someone talking about living in wonder. Um, you know, I just, This was not intentional. You might think, you know, the guy should be planning out the shows for the year or so, at least for like three months or the quarter. You know, it’s it’s not intentional, but it occurred to me while I was thinking about our conversation that, that I have done this and I think I’m I’m sort of unconsciously responding to what I think a lot of people are feeling now, the end of 2022, the waning days of the pandemic. Hopefully they continue, but you know, between recession and pandemic and political turmoil, uh world turmoil, war in europe, you know? Yeah, I just I think I’ve I’ve unconsciously found myself gravitating to these topics of self care and team care and and friends and relationships.

[00:35:14.42] spk_1:
It’s a lot to be with. It’s important to call out, it sounds like that that divine wind of inspiration speaking through you for what’s the moment called for?

[00:35:58.07] spk_0:
I’d like to move to the ripples if we can you break it down. And of course, you know, listen, this is a, this really is an inspirational book. I encourage you to get this and and as as truth and I said, you know, work for work for yourself first and then think about scaling to to your organization, but trough and you break it down and like take action, find and use your voice and then developing and maintaining your personal compass around ripples. But what ripples. You started to say it earlier, then I cut you off because I wanted to, I wanted to spend a lot of time with reverence and then ripples and then relationship etcetera. So so if you can you’re welcome to repeat what you were starting to get into with with ripples earlier.

[00:39:41.02] spk_1:
Sure the I think, and especially for people who are engaged in trying to affect change in the world, it could be so disheartening to, you know, recognize how little impact we can have on our political system or climate or these sort of things. And so the importance again, individual action alone isn’t going to solve our problems, but for us to embody our values in a practical way. For me, it’s things that regenerate the earth in the garden and meet neighbors in that. But you’re also when you’re doing these small acts, you’re connecting to these larger intrinsic forces that are at the core of our planet’s function. So, so as far as the mindless of consciousness, like yes, be aware, you know, small actions aren’t going to, you know, save the world completely. But when you could recognize and acknowledge that you’re acting from your values, when you do that small thing and you get a little dopamine hit and you feel good and it gives a little motivation. And then you connect that to recycling isn’t just recycling life on our planet flourishes because of cycles. The hydrologic cycle, nutrient cycles, all these big cycles. And so you’re literally connecting into these larger intrinsic planetary forces. So you get to connect with something much bigger and that’s the beauty like permaculture as you’re tapping into the operating instructions for our planet and so taking action in whatever way you can. And in particular if you could get out and get your fingers dirty and connect to the earth and connect to the air and the water and the people around you. But taking action is the first level. And as you’re taking action it could be imperfect, but start to find and express your voice. Whether you’re an extrovert and introvert, it doesn’t matter. It could be using a lot of words or not. But what is the voice that wants to speak through you that ties to your passion and your purpose and why you’re here on the planet in this moment? Um and so for each of us to connect to to our voice, that’s our ultimate sense of agency. And then how do we bring that to work with others? So so I think taking the time. Journaling is a great tool. There’s a lot of practice is paying attention to the people and the things that inspire you again. That is where you feel a sense of inspiration and juice and you know just really pay attention to to what what lights you up so to speak. And then through time, um you know the compass is a really important thing like finding what your true north is. There’s so much destabilizing change in the world and so developing a compass which is you know different for each person. But around what your purpose, your vision, your values, your strength sort of, your your core coordinates. Who are your key reference points. Is it a famous leader? Is your grandmother and so Bundling those things up? It could be in a folder. Could be internalized. But so what are those core reference points for your compass? And then what are the sets of habits and practices that help you work? That I recommend having some sort of daily practice to start the day. But really it’s developing on my wall. I have kind of quotes and mantra and images. I listen to music each day, have tons of practice and I keep on adding more. And you know, like I read in a book, um, there’s a book on habits. I come from atomic habits or another one, but it talked about how Michael Phelps the, you know, all time Olympian, his coma, The swimmer. Yeah, helped him develop these habits where by the time he got to the pool, he had had success like 50 times or 100 times that day. And so how can you get lots and lots of little winds that build momentum and motivation and confidence. Um, so developing a compass is, there’s a pretty big section in the second section on ripples, on developing your compass. I think it’s one of the most important things any of us could do in whatever form you do it in.

[00:40:10.09] spk_0:
I love this idea of, of so many wins before you even sit down to your desk at, you know, 8 30 in the morning. You’ve already had a dozen wins or something

[00:40:37.21] spk_1:
versus the opposite effect. What happens when you look at your email or you have an emotionally charged conversation or you feel besieged if you start the day with your cup already empty and if you’re a leader and you’re dealing with a lot of things coming at you, um, it’s important for all of us down to in um, trying to think in the power of habit. The author talks about a keystone practice and the simple act of making your bed and how studies have shown it has this cascade of positive influences relative to, you know, better exercise, managing your finance better. A whole range of unexpected things of just getting little winds and building on them. So

[00:41:01.57] spk_0:
your mother was right when she told you to make your bed

[00:41:04.19] spk_1:
when

[00:41:05.25] spk_0:
you were five years old, your mother was teaching you about your intrinsic worth

[00:41:25.16] spk_1:
and making it easier to to have good habits, put your shoes by the door, that encourages you to go for a walk, put a little note on your computer, what are the little things you could do to remove barriers and encourage the positive practices and habits you want to develop, you know, And then, well anyway, so positive. But then, you know, how do we apply that stuff at an organizational scale is where it goes?

[00:43:26.28] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two, I’m cheering you on this time of year because it’s the last month. I know you, you may very well have weekly production goals maybe even every couple of weeks every a couple times a week. You’re checking your, where you stand against last year, I’m in your corner. I know it’s, it’s high stress. Um, something like 45% or 47% of gifts come in after December 25. Uh, end of year gifts. Sorry, that’s not of the whole year. That’s the end of year gifts, which I think is defined as last quarter, almost half come after December 25. So whatever the numbers are, I know it’s high pressure. I’m thinking about you. I’m wishing you well. Also remember from last week that regardless of how you perform, how your, you individually and as your organization performs today, there is a tomorrow, regardless of how you do this week. You have next week and the week after. And that goes for this year too. I hope you do very well this year if you do less well than you want. If you don’t do well this year you have next year lots of opportunities to grow. Remember your past does not define your future either as a person or as a nonprofit. That is Tony’s take two, we’ve got boo koo, but loads more time for, take heart, Take action with Trevathan Heckman.

[00:43:33.22] spk_1:
You have a

[00:43:44.76] spk_0:
quote from Martha Graham that, that goes to the point you made about. You know what we each bring individually and uh a little longer, but I’m gonna read it. There is a vitality, a life force and energy, a quickening that is translated through you into action. And because there is only one of you in all of time,

[00:43:57.20] spk_1:
this

[00:44:08.99] spk_0:
expression is unique. And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and it will be lost. The world will not have it. It is not your business to determine how good it is, nor how valuable nor how it compares with other expressions.

[00:44:17.95] spk_1:
It

[00:44:18.17] spk_0:
is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly to keep the channel open,

[00:44:25.08] spk_1:
Keep

[00:45:27.91] spk_0:
yourself open and aware to the urges that motivate you. Uh Martha Graham, you know, renowned professional dancer choreographer, identifying that we each bring something unique and we’re impinging on the world if we don’t share it. You uh well you’ve you’ve said you’ve said a couple of times uh stressed the importance of journaling and and and and you you also make the point in the book that, you know, this is not, you know, there will be uh like a school journal. You know, you you use a journal that doesn’t even have lines on it. You know, it’s just it’s thoughts and your your underlining and circling and you know, so you know what people may think of as a stereotypical journal is is not at all necessarily what your journal needs to look like. Um and meditation, but then also, you know, you talk about breathing and stretching, connecting these these these physical practices as well.

[00:45:59.12] spk_1:
Yeah, my originally, what I was fortunate to come across of was I started studying tai chi nei gong and the internal chinese martial arts and so that kind of early on really grounded me in body based practices which are really important for healing and re centering and increasing awareness and that. Um, so so that’s long been a core piece to me and then through time layering and other habits in practice, this is and layering in mantra Xas and integrating and clarifying one’s values. Um, you know, things like developing a purpose statement. So those sort of pieces which hone your compass but rooting that in a physical practice that gets you in your body and your breath is really important personally. And then collectively we do these practices organizationally as well and through a leadership institute.

[00:46:25.73] spk_0:
Oh you do in the organization. Yeah,

[00:47:28.54] spk_1:
well and you know, the on that point you mentioned a self care piece, we also advocate for this from a climate policy perspective of the if if if we don’t deal with this sort of mind body aspect of of of the existential traumas that people are facing and the traumas that are getting unearthed by dealing with things like historic oppression and racism in that we have to, that has to be a part of our climate work to we can’t just assume everybody, he’s gonna figure out how to reduce all the emissions and and sequester the carbon and do all that. There’s this human component which involves sort of like personal and collective self care. So we’re advocating for this, this kind of stuff should be in our climate policies as well. It’s not just at the personal organizational scale. If we don’t support people to address and move through these traumas, we’re gonna have a hard time facing reality and changing. Let’s

[00:47:37.38] spk_0:
move to relationships. And you urge us to invest in the power of small groups, flush this out for us. The value of relationships and what small groups can do.

[00:49:27.34] spk_1:
Sure, I think probably I’m sure a number of people on this have heard what always stuck with me is that that famous Margaret Mead quote about never doubt the ability of a thoughtful committed group of people to change the world that that it’s all that it’s ever been. And so that always just resonated really powerfully. And then through time, you know, in growing daily Acts organizations as a small committee based organization and then serving on a number of boards at the regional state and national scale for for grassroots networks. I got to see again and again the power of these small groups and through coalitions and that. And so I think what’s interesting about in recent years is a deeper sort of understanding and analysis of how small groups affect change. And so there’s a great book called Forces for Good, which assesses a lot of different nonprofits based upon Jim Collins Leadership authors leadership framework and then um emergent leadership and books like that. And so how small groups affect change is in through networks and through shared leadership and through inspiring evangelism and by working as, you know, what we call ecosystem catalysts. And so how you could go from one garden to doing 600 gardens in a weekend is not by yourself with two or three staff or volunteers, it’s by engaging 2030 40 organizations, agencies, businesses and other partners towards a larger collective goal. Um when, you know, these organizations, these small groups of people, that that’s when they’re working towards a collective impact with others. Then when you start to build coalitions and work with government, you know, it’s really how can the small groups um work together and leverage collective power in a bigger community. And so for us that that’s really which is sort of this ecosystem approach, it’s not about any one tree in the garden or organization in the community. It’s how does the whole thing function as an ecosystem?

[00:49:50.88] spk_0:
Why don’t you share one of the stories from the book? I should have asked you to share stories earlier, but I your host is lackluster. I’m sorry. You got the book is teeming with with lots of stories share, share one of the so the relationship network networking scaling stories.

[00:53:12.48] spk_1:
Yeah, well kind of maybe like a meta story of how they fit together. We went from this idea of like sharing inspiring gardens on a tour. So then mobilizing 150 people in a weekend and working with our city and transforming a landscape in this ecological garden. That blew everybody away and addressed multiple the city’s needs vs. One department focused on water. It addressed food and community engagement and stormwater by taking this holistic approach. It addressed a lot of issues. And so then we went from one garden to a bigger garden, transforming a city hall landscape in a day with 250 volunteers and multi Partners. And then we went for a while what if we didn’t just do one big garden, but we did lots of gardens. And so we had this crazy idea of planting 350 gardens in a weekend. And by mobilizing dozens of community partners, we registered over 600 gardens in a single weekend and that kept on doubling and doubling and doubling through time and reached about 100,000 actions and projects and so going from education to action to transformation. It’s a more collective transformation. Then we started moving into coalition building and so in response to record drought and record fire and the climate crisis and the pandemic, we then started launching numerous coalitions in different aspects of health equity, environment, watershed protection. Um and so so kind of this is where moving to that more bigger collective space at a coalition scale. And and recently, you know, to give one example a few years ago, when the climate crisis was really feeling extreme and there was a lack of political action. We helped form a coalition with a handful of other commune members called Climate Action Petaluma, and we rallied our people and showed up at the city’s policy setting session and got about 400 people to sign a petition and maybe 50 organizations and businesses sign on. And we asked our city declare climate emergency and to create a new Climate Commission, an appointed body and to take action. And based upon this effort, the city became the first city in the Sonoma County to declare climate emergency. This led to the other municipal jurisdictions doing so on becoming the first county in the whole country to do this. This quickly led to helping the city form a new Climate Commission and then City pedal became the first city in the country to ban new gas stations. And now that’s rippling throughout the county and other places. And it’s led to this effort where then more people are running for council and you have new community voices or on city council and they’re running for commissions and new groups are forming to get behind this 2030 0 mission mission, you know, uh to achieve zero emissions by 2030 which is a big daunting goal. Um but it’s just creating all kinds of transformations and new groups are forming in the city and the community are working together in new and exciting ways. And this all came from this small group taking a collective impact effort and working with our agency in a we are in this together way versus a pointing fingers and then encouraging other people to step up and grab their parts and it started to grow the garden or the ecosystem of players where now you have really wide buy in in our community, it’s rippling out on, on achieving these goals in different ways by working together. Um, and there’s a dozen or more examples that that’s a good one, but throughout the book that shows these sort of different efforts of working collaboratively to solve problems and all kind of crises.

[00:53:45.22] spk_0:
You mentioned something as you’re talking about building these small groups and getting getting things started, that it’s not so

[00:53:50.31] spk_1:
much the

[00:53:57.18] spk_0:
fool, but it’s the fools. First followers. The fool being the guy who’s got the person who’s got the idea, uh he he or she there all by themselves. But but when you get the first, like three or four people, there’s, you know, that you’re pioneers, I guess before the early adopters, you get your pioneers to join the join the

[00:54:14.59] spk_1:
fool. Say,

[00:54:14.91] spk_0:
say more about that. I like it’s a small thing you mentioned in the book, but I I liked it.

[00:55:44.89] spk_1:
It’s a great if anybody who hasn’t seen it, a number of people haven’t been viewed by millions and millions of people, but there’s a great video called leadership lessons from a dancing fool and it just shows this guy dancing all crazy and then one person comes in and eventually creates a tipping point and the core ideas, it’s not about the lone nut, but will the lone nut encourage someone who first tries to join him and the second follower and the third follower kind of really the key people that translate what the nut is doing to make it more socially acceptable and move on. And so you need your your founders and your loan nuts creating something, but then you need those first few people are like, okay, I can contribute to this, I can help make sense of this. And it’s just kind of paying attention. Are you the lone nut called to create something new or are you a first follower or you know, do you just need to be ready to jump in when the effort starts to grow when the movement starts to build? Um and that’s true for for affecting change at scales to to affect systemic change. There’s these different core lessons we need to apply around developing shared leadership around creating community and nurturing networks around facilitating but giving up the idea, we can control change being adaptive and responsive of knowing change could take a long time, but be ready to jump in. Um these are some of these systems change strategies that you know, you can apply to your organization and community change work.

[00:56:02.69] spk_0:
So the reverence plus the ripples plus relationships are going to give you resilience. What’s that?

[00:56:25.21] spk_1:
Just the work and the practices of you know, personal organizational scale continually starting with our heart. What breaks our heart. Re centering on our inspiration and then centering on our action. What’s the best we could do in ourselves and our family and our community and our organization. And when we are working at starting with our heart and focus and proactively on what’s in our our power shining our light and sharing it and we do that in a way that’s in right relation with our planet with our people doing those three things. The first three hours is how we build resilience, how we build resilience in our lives and our homes and our organizations in our communities.

[00:56:44.89] spk_0:
So so say more about resilience, what what what what do we have to look forward to

[00:57:18.50] spk_1:
resilience in the book, Really just kind of shows how when you’re doing these things for a long time all the pieces could come together from the individual scale to the household garden scale to the organizational scale to the committee scale and sort of create a pop where the elements start to synergize and function together and that we could affect much larger change than we often think, you know and so not getting overwhelmed by the scale of the problems centering the power of small but the power of small can affect really, really big change. Um, and so that’s kind of the take home and then just pulling back into our places of power and re centering and taking care of ourselves and our communities are organizations to just to put our oxygen mask on first as we, as we sustain in the long work.

[00:57:41.41] spk_0:
That’s what I wanted folks to hear the pop. It’s

[00:58:06.40] spk_1:
a great metaphor. It comes from a book, it’s a longer thing. Um a permaculture book by a friend who passed some years ago Toby Hemenway called Gaia’s Garden and he talks about how when all the core elements of the garden come into come into concert, there’s this pop of the whole ecosystem surgeon with vitality and you could able harvest any drop of rainy scrap of carbon or sunshine into this lush thriving ecosystem. And so that’s a metaphor. How do you apply that to creating a pop in your personal life at your organizational scale. How do we create the pop at the neighborhood and community scale and our movements.

[00:58:43.26] spk_0:
Jason Heckman outstanding. Thank you. The book is take heart take action. The transformative power of small acts groups and gardens. It’s 2022 Trenton. Thank you very much. Real pleasure. Thanks

[00:58:46.39] spk_1:
so much for having me tony it’s been great to be here.

[00:58:48.39] spk_0:
Thank you tell folks where they can find, take heart take action

[00:58:54.02] spk_1:
Sure. If you go to our website, Daily Acts dot org, a C T s dot org, then you’ll you’ll see a link that clicks to our crowdfunding campaign for the book and we just ordered 1000 sustainable, sustainably printed copies, which will be arriving next week. Um, and then we’re also hiring for a number of positions. So since this is out to the field of nonprofit leaders, please check our website for the positions we’re hiring for as well.

[00:59:29.10] spk_0:
The book and the jobs, they’re all at daily Acts dot org. Tristan. Thank you again Next week, Alex Counts returns with his new book, small loans, Big dreams.

[00:59:36.90] spk_1:
If

[01:00:13.60] spk_0:
you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for December 5, 2022: 6 Steps Before You Hire

 

Andrea Hoffer6 Steps Before You Hire

Hiring is rampant because turnover is rampant. You have work to do internally, before you go public with your job posting. Andrea Hoffer, from AHA! Recruiting Experts, talks you through her 6 steps. You can download the first chapter of Andrea’s book, “Hire Higher.” We recorded on a bus in the Israeli desert.

 

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Board relations. Fundraising. Volunteer management. Prospect research. Legal compliance. Accounting. Finance. Investments. Donor relations. Public relations. Marketing. Technology. Social media.

Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:01:10.11] spk_0:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me, I’d suffer the effects of para fia if you touched me with the idea that you missed this week’s show six steps before you hire, hiring is rampant because turnover is rampant, you have work to do internally before you go public with your job posting. Andrea Hoffer from ah ha recruiting experts talks you through her six steps On Tony’s take two lots of opportunities for growth. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Here is six steps before you hire.

[00:01:57.34] spk_1:
It’s a pleasure to welcome to non profit radio Andrea Hoffer, Andrea is a businesswoman over three decades of experience. She’s managed hundreds of employees and knows firsthand the everyday challenges, motivating a team, exceeding customer expectations and meeting business and revenue goals now Andrea is using her experience to help companies recruit hire and onboard new team members successfully without wasting time or money on those poor hires that don’t work out. Her company is a hot recruiting a AJ they are at aha underscore recruiting and at aha recruiting experts dot com Andrea welcome to nonprofit radio

[00:02:09.12] spk_2:
hi, Tony, I’m really happy to be here. This is, this is pretty cool,

[00:03:41.33] spk_1:
You’re happy in your surprise surprise Andrea and I are on a bus in Israel, we are headed to the dead sea, we met at this course called Israel innovation that she and I are both taking along, with I don’t know seems to be maybe 60 or 70 other people most are not from the US most are from latin America brazil chile Argentina. Uh, but there are also folks from central America Panama, Colombia costa rica. Uh, there’s a woman from Ireland should make sure that we know Ireland is in the house every time we have a meeting. So we’re spending a week together traveling through Israel. Uh, we’ve been in tel Aviv together. Um, today we left tell Aviv came to the negative desert, the desert we visited kibbutz and now we’re on a bus from the kibbutz to the Dead sea where we’re gonna stay overnight in hotels and we are stealing some time on the bus so that Andrea and I can record and I can record because we’re not sure if we’re gonna have time any other time. There might be occasional interruptions, bus noises. And we’re on the bus. Welcome! Welcome. We are talking about the process of discovery, which is the earliest phase, right? This is the earliest phase of

[00:03:50.55] spk_2:
Yes, but what you do before you even put a job ad out there, things you need to think about. So that when you do start recruiting, you’re looking for the for the right person.

[00:04:04.69] spk_1:
Okay, so we’re in introspective exercise in house were strictly in house Discovery and you call this phase Discovery?

[00:04:10.96] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:04:11.69] spk_1:
Why is that?

[00:04:27.93] spk_2:
Because a lot of it you actually know, but you haven’t thought about it, You haven’t asked yourself those questions that you’re discovering this about yourself, about your organization, about the people that work for you and what you want your work culture to look like, what you want your team to look like.

[00:04:34.23] spk_1:
Okay, okay, now one thing I didn’t say in your bio, you are founder and what you what do you call yourself at, recruiting founder and Ceo

[00:04:44.99] spk_2:
founder and Ceo

[00:04:46.08] spk_1:
founder and Ceo

[00:04:47.36] spk_2:
recruiting experts,

[00:04:53.26] spk_1:
recruiting experts. Okay, excellent. Alright, so you have a discovery process, You have a process for this discovery?

[00:04:57.61] spk_2:
Yes. So we have six questions. Um six overall questions that we typically take our clients through and um and then there are lots of questions underneath it to go to go deeper, but I can

[00:05:11.15] spk_1:
to talk to

[00:05:11.99] spk_2:
You about the six,

[00:05:13.17] spk_1:
the six most important and maybe some of my questions will evoke some of your sub questions etcetera. So, okay, so

[00:06:34.06] spk_2:
the first question is really, you know, why does this position exist? What is the main purpose of it? Every position has some reason it exists and it typically in some way will contribute to the bottom line and will contribute to the mission of the company. So it either in some way is gonna save your company money or in some way is going to make the company more money, but it’s usually even bigger than that. And I and I have an example I can share to you. Um, so one example I like to share is an account manager and the job we like to break it into job title, job purpose and then organizational mission. And so the job title of account manager could be the job purpose to ensure client’s expectations are exceeded. Very, you know, it’s very simple. There’s no very high level, no getting this wrong. You know, we tell people don’t worry about getting it right. You’re gonna start, you’re going to tweak it over over time, but just put some thought into it. So you have direction. Um, so the whole purpose of this account manager’s job is to make sure the client’s expectations are exceeded. And then as we go through some of these other questions of these six questions will go a little bit deeper of what that looks like.

[00:06:51.07] spk_1:
Let’s let’s reassure folks that this certainly applies to non profits because your work is, your work is mostly you’ve done some work with nonprofits and you have a background in nonprofits.

[00:07:07.38] spk_2:
Yes. I started working in higher ed. And so in an arts organization that was all non profit. And then when I started the company, I did a lot of consulting with nonprofits in addition to small business,

[00:07:21.93] spk_1:
everything we’re talking about transfers

[00:07:23.44] spk_2:
of course,

[00:07:25.56] spk_1:
Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. And I’m sure you all know

[00:07:32.11] spk_2:
that in many ways, a lot of these questions of why a position exists or what the mission is of an organization. In some ways, it’s even easier for the nonprofits to answer because they talk about their mission so much more than business students often. So it there’s a good connection there

[00:08:07.52] spk_1:
and before we go further with, because we’re still at the very high level, why does the position exist? Who should be well, yeah, who should be answering these questions? What’s the structure do we send around a survey to all the employees? Is it only the employees who are going to work with the person whose whose position were filling is leadership involved? Who’s answering this? What are the logistics of getting?

[00:08:36.48] spk_2:
A lot of it depends on how large the organization is. We have done this process with just the Ceo or just the leader of if it’s a non profit organization, but typically would recommend getting at least the leadership involved. But if you’re thinking, if you can get more people involved in answering these questions and discussing these questions and get as many people as possible, the better outcomes better you’re going to answer these questions,

[00:08:49.58] spk_1:
you like the idea of maybe circulating the questions in advance and then meeting everybody writing their answers that

[00:09:55.98] spk_2:
we actually have. Sometimes what we do if the organization agrees and they can get more people involved is we do a sort of sort of what you just said, like a questionnaire like a survey of different than have each person fill it out separately without talking to each other. Even if it’s a small organization, we’re just sitting at the four or five people and then we get them all together and we talk about, well, okay, here are the patterns we saw here, here’s what everybody’s saying and usually about 70 to 80% is going to be similar but then hear the differences and why do you, why do you think this person answered this and this and that person into that? And we talk about the gaps and then a lot of times we’re able to bring it together and and really come to a, I don’t want to say a compromise, but something that is behind a consensus.

[00:10:00.90] spk_1:
Um, Alright, so we’re at the level, why does this position even exist?

[00:10:22.73] spk_2:
So the next one is, it’s about the outcomes you’re looking for and this drills it down. Um, often two metrics, you know, how do you qualify this and the, and you know, I know you’re doing a planned giving and if you talk about a fundraising, which is kind of an offshoot bringing money in there could be the amount of money, the level of money that this position is responsible for bringing in. It could be how much money you want to bring in for different events or for different milestones or deadlines.

[00:10:45.58] spk_1:
What if it’s a program

[00:10:47.02] spk_2:
position

[00:10:48.14] spk_1:
and they’re gonna be doing service

[00:10:50.00] spk_2:
to

[00:10:51.61] spk_1:
beneficiary humans in some in some capacity and then would it be like your monthly throughput or a number of client hours you spend? It

[00:11:02.97] spk_2:
could be, it could be retention, It could be

[00:11:07.06] spk_1:
keeping people in

[00:11:13.36] spk_2:
keeping volunteers or keeping how many people attend and and come back each time. You know, anything that shows growth that shows that it’s a contribution to the, to the mission overall.

[00:11:22.54] spk_1:
Okay, Alright. Again, that’s why mission can be so

[00:11:25.01] spk_2:
valuable. Exactly.

[00:11:34.97] spk_1:
Because your, as you said, you know, we’re talking about mission often it’s the core, it’s the reason we exist. It’s protecting the homeless, It’s protecting animals. It’s feeding the hungry education

[00:12:01.45] spk_2:
and this is what’s going to attract people. All of this is what is going to attract people to join your team to join your organization and money of course is important to most people they have to be able to live. But and to many people this mission knowing how they contribute to the mission of the organization, whether it’s a business or a non profit is just as important, sometimes more important than than the money factor. And so if you can get this part right and and show that connection, you’re gonna attract more skilled people and more pass.

[00:12:24.15] spk_1:
And I see why you say we’re jumping ahead because now we’re kind of bleeding into promoting the promoting position and organization to the, to the and the mission to the right people, but we’re still in the discovery phase, but, but it all into relates of course. Um And so these are, these are valuable introspection questions. Okay. Anything else that you want to say about that? That second one before we?

[00:12:47.77] spk_2:
No, I think I think

[00:12:49.03] spk_1:
you’ve

[00:15:53.09] spk_2:
pretty much got the gist of it there. Um and then the next one is I like to refer to it as success traits. But what are the characteristics? And this is yeah, this is specific to the position because we’re going to talk about the organizational culture in a moment. But you know, what are the specific characteristics, specific traits that you have seen of successful people in this position or similar position in the past? And this takes some thought and and we usually, the way we pull it out of people is by stories. I’m a big fan of thinking back and writing down stories stories of um when you had team members that were successful and lots of different successes. Big successes. But I’m always encouraging people to to track those things to write them down. And then also stories of when people weren’t successful and you start to see patterns of the different traits of of what would make somebody successful in this particular position. Um and I’ll give you an example. We um, you know, we often will recruit for executive assistants and we had a couple of years ago we had a ceo and just can apply non profit for profit. But this this happened to be a for profit company. Um, and she needed an executive assistant and she had already gone through several, nobody was successful with. Um, and one of the things, one of the reasons why she was having trouble finding the right person was her company, um, was very fast pace. It, everybody in the company traveled a lot and the Ceo was absolutely brilliant. She needed somebody who could organize her and be like a million steps ahead of her. And, and used to that chaos and be able to thrive in that chaos. So we knew we were recruiting that those were some of the traits we were looking for. So we had lots of amazing executive assistant candidates who had great skills. But as soon as we talked to them and learned, you know, that they’ve been an executive system, say in a large organization for yes, a very busy, you know, senior executive, but it was still structured, they were still useful. A lot of structure. We knew they weren’t going to be a good fit. So we knew what types of success traits to, to look for and, and then, you know, we take that and we drill it down to a couple of sentences so that it really jumps out at the right person when we’re going to look for someone. And so that it’s very clear to us for more interview, was

[00:15:53.54] spk_1:
there any chance that you should have been recruiting for a new Ceo, in that, in that company?

[00:16:18.50] spk_2:
Actually there are lots of businesses and even non profit organizations that do function in that way. There’s still some structure, there’s still productivity. But because of the nature of what they do there is this daily chaos. You just have to find the right way to say. And and it was also where they were in their history as a, as a company to with the growth.

[00:18:29.44] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications their e newsletter this week. What a year in review can do for you. And they talk about the value of a year in review article or blog post that you write. They say that it usually only requires a light lift because you just need to spend time summarizing stuff that you’ve been writing all year long and of course you’re gonna file focus on milestones, you know, main achievements, accomplishments. But they also suggest including challenges, especially if you overcame them successfully. Because that adds some authenticity. Right? And they suggest that a year in review can help you, of course, you know, showcase your results. You just talked about, you know, accomplishments, achievements, you can acknowledge your key audiences, supporters, loyal customers, donors, your, your beneficiaries, any any parts of your year in review that you can work these folks in all the better boost morale. Uh, it’s often easy to forget all the things that you did achieve over the year at the end of the, at the end of the year because it’s so busy. So this can help refresh recollections about the good things that that happened through the year. Um, so those are some ideas that they have around your year in review piece. You can get their e newsletter, which is on message at turn hyphen two dot c o turn to communications. Your story is their mission Now back to six steps before you hire. We

[00:18:29.70] spk_1:
Have Questions 4, 5 and six.

[00:18:31.19] spk_2:
Yes. I’m trying to make sure. I don’t forget any

[00:18:33.98] spk_1:
here. You

[00:20:15.83] spk_2:
know, I think this is good and let me just go back to my thing here. So the, so we talked about success trades which are specific to the position, but then you have your core values that are specific to the overall organ. So everyone in the organization, no matter what position they have lived by. These core values and I call them, um, kind of your default zone, your guiding principles. And if you’re done right, if they’re really alive in your organization, then you know that no matter what decisions being made by anybody in the organization that there they’ll be making a decision the way you around those values, the way they act. And so for example, one of our core values at aha is think like a detective. So we’re often kind of putting our detective hat on and often the core values do start to come from what’s important to the ceo to the person who’s running the company or restart the company but you want to make sure that they’re also important to everybody in the organization that they like. It they they’re successful by it there it’s natural for them. So when when we’re recruiting for our company we’re looking for people who are curious Think outside the box who put their detective hat on and don’t just accept, you know you have to do things 123 but there’s gotta be another way to do it better. Um And so it comes up in our meetings a lot. You know when somebody says they have a challenge, did you put your detective hat on? How you know how else can we? So that’s one of our core values

[00:20:28.18] spk_1:
since we’re in the middle here were three out of six I want to mention. Andrew you don’t have in your Andrea you don’t have in your bio that you’re the author of. Higher.

[00:20:38.84] spk_2:
Higher.

[00:21:01.30] spk_1:
Unless I I don’t I don’t I didn’t deliberately cut it out of your cut it out of your bio. No look there’s I’m showing her the bio bio on her phone which does not mention that she is the author of the book. It says about the author it’s a piece of a larger pr alright still. Okay well she’s she’s the author of the book. Higher. Higher. H. I. R. E. H. I. G. H. T. R. Which you can get on amazon. Higher.

[00:21:10.17] spk_2:
Higher and and in the book it’s a very practical guide and it does walk through these six questions and a lot more but it goes into more detail about it and

[00:21:29.55] spk_1:
we can’t do everything the surface, we can’t dive deep. Just you know, if this intrigues you, you got to get the book, that’s the only way to get the full depth. Alright. Number four question four discovery process.

[00:22:21.29] spk_2:
So this is what everybody already thinks they know right when when you’re thinking about, I got to fill a job. I always say employers say okay they have to have this many years of experience in this particular industry and they’ve had to have You know, no this specific software and have this education and all of these skills and when I go online and I look at job as it’s usually pages and pages of the experience and skills that they want as can be a really big mistake. So what I recommend in this area is just narrow it down to the 4-6 skills or experience that you absolutely need for the job and think about

[00:22:27.56] spk_1:
Like 13 Bullets one

[00:22:33.38] spk_2:
job. I just

[00:22:36.65] spk_1:
I get bored.

[00:22:40.48] spk_2:
Most candidates look at it. I

[00:22:44.63] spk_1:
can’t possibly sometimes I wonder if there’s anybody who could really creating such an ideal that I think there may be scaring candidates away. They’re intimidated by the prospect of the requirements of the

[00:23:10.31] spk_2:
job. And the interesting thing is there have been studies done between men and women and men typically, Even if they can only do three out of the 15 bullets on the list will apply, but women, if they can do 14 out of 15 on average will not apply. So you end up

[00:23:22.81] spk_1:
cutting out, you

[00:24:05.01] spk_2:
know, a big part of the population. Um, so you know, we typically recommend between four and six of the most important, think about what you’re set up to train for. So you know, if you can bring someone on who has the right attitude, you know, they’re trainable, make sure you can train them or you have something, some resources to train them. Um, and then that opens the field for you and, and people love training and professional development. That’s one of the big things. Again, it’s are always asking about what, how am I gonna get growth from this? How is this going to take me to the next level? So that’s an amazing thing to offer somebody

[00:24:08.81] spk_1:
training. Professional development is important even more. So maybe now in the post pandemic economy, they want candidates want to know that the company, the organization is going to invest in their growth,

[00:24:24.07] spk_2:
that they’re going to invest in the growth, that there’s opportunity to move up. But even if there is an opportunity to move up because sometimes certain organizations just, it just doesn’t have, that is their opportunity to learn something new. There are lots of ways to keep people happen about what they’re doing and wanting to stick, stick around even if it’s not a huge bump in pay and a huge title. That’s not always what’s most important to

[00:24:54.78] spk_1:
people? What do we have next?

[00:26:14.38] spk_2:
Okay, let’s see. Did we go? We went through five already, Right. But we went through four. Okay. We talked about results. So what, why do people stay at your organization and why do they leave that often? We don’t even ask ourselves that. And that was probably a question for, for your current team. You know, what, what is it that they really enjoy about working there? Is it the mission, is it that you’re, you do a lot of things together as a team. Is it the pay, is it the professional development? There could be lots of different things sometimes, which is very big. Now it’s the flexibility, you know, if they’re they can come in at different hours, um, or you know, is there a work from home? Is there a hybrid? That’s of course very big right now. What is it that keeps them and what is it that drives them away? And that often could be like, you know, you you made a comment when I I talked about that example of this Ceo and the kind of the chaos, some people thrive in that by your comment. It sounds like that would probably drive you away. Um, so be very clear about what your environments like and put it all out there sometimes. Um People will ask me, well shouldn’t I make it sound really great? Only if it’s true, Be authentic and find out what is true.

[00:26:23.97] spk_1:
Otherwise you’re misleading the candidates.

[00:26:25.53] spk_2:
Exactly. It’s

[00:26:26.39] spk_1:
a chaotic environment and a lot of flexibility is needed and it’s hard to work through a weekly plan that you might

[00:26:34.83] spk_2:
put put

[00:27:13.69] spk_1:
together on monday or the friday before. Uh then then reveal that because the person is gonna leave in a couple of months when they realize that it’s not, it’s not the predictable week after week pattern that you made it sound like that. You just told me out explicitly that it is all right. So if we’re at why do people, why do people stay and why do people leave? Uh look people could be leaving because of leadership, difficult leadership, but now we’re having leadership. Answer the answer the survey uh here’s where the leaders answers the C suite answers. They diverge from the and who in the C suite is gonna be willing to admit that they are the reason or contributing to the reason that people leave.

[00:28:39.25] spk_2:
You would be surprised that I have met a lot of leaders over the years, both in non profit and for profit. And I have met leaders who who recognize where their challenges are. And sometimes they’ll say I need to hire somebody to fill that gap for me. Actually met with a later a couple weeks ago who said that, he said you know what I know I’m not good at managing people like keeping the team motivated that it um checking in with them and making sure they’re supported so I need to hire somebody to help me with that or that order kind of fill that gap. So a lot of them will especially now because more important because we as a society after the pandemic are demanding more of that you know to be recognized to be respected too leaders who are going to contribute to our growth. So I think that more and more leaders are even if they have to be banged on the head a little bit with it um I think they’re recognizing the importance of that and that they need to do that they want to retain,

[00:28:42.12] spk_1:
okay you’re finding that people are realistic

[00:28:46.70] spk_2:
about it couldn’t be

[00:29:06.07] spk_1:
careful, you should watch your hair on your left side too. So that was Andrea Andrea I’ve been calling you for half a week now and recording and I keep saying Andrea Andrea touching her mike but we’re on the fly here that’s what that’s what that noise in the middle of anything else went through everything. That’s a very good one why why people stay and why people

[00:30:42.21] spk_2:
leave, you could spend a lot of time on that. It was so funny I actually I met with often I will run masterminds or be in masterminds with other organizational leaders and there was one woman who um her business is growing very quickly and she said I’m so overwhelmed and like what are you overwhelmed with? She said I’m overwhelmed with the employee and gauge. I feel like there’s so much I need to do to show my employees I care and to keep them happy and successful and I’ve been told like you know there’s so much out there and it’s just there’s so much more because that we’re hearing now. So I was like you don’t have to do everything right away. Just check in with your team regularly. That’s probably the most important thing is checking in, see how you can help them and make sure they know you’re being authentic. You’re being sincere. You truly want to hear if there’s a challenge which this leader is naturally empathetic. So I said really you just need to be you. She had a counseling background but I told her to just start with three things that

[00:30:47.38] spk_3:
we are

[00:30:48.36] spk_1:
now we’re gonna pause while we have an introduction explanation.

[00:31:27.55] spk_3:
Maybe we should include this. People have problems with breathing. They come to because the air here is very very dry and it’s very good for people who have problems breathing and lungs problems. Now the dead sea is also part of I would say medical tourism and now that we are starting to go down to the dead sea A lot is like 4, 500 m above sea level. The dead sea is 425 m below sea level. So we’re going out 800 m down.

[00:31:39.92] spk_1:
Alright. So there’s a little bit about the dead sea and how far below sea level it is courtesy of our guide for the week. Is Michael from Denmark.

[00:33:07.18] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. We are at the beginning of december which of course is most likely a very important month for you regardless of how you perform, how your organization comes out tomorrow is another opportunity to grow. So I’m urging you to shed Let go how it goes today. This week you have another day tomorrow, you have another week and you have the one after. So regardless of how you and your nonprofit do even this year 2023 is another opportunity Full of 365 days. If you do great this year. 2022, fantastic. If you don’t, 2023 is another new full year. Your past doesn’t define your future and you have many opportunities to grow each day, week, month year. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for six steps before you hire with Andrea hoffer.

[00:33:26.29] spk_1:
We were talking about the reasons why people leave the reasons why people stay and I was saying that I think that’s valuable introspection. Even apart from a hiring process, this is valuable, valuable to think about these things. Is there anything more that you want to add on?

[00:35:51.46] spk_2:
No, not onto that. And you know I agree it is it is very important and you know sometimes we do all this work with clients and to find them the best candidate or what we think is the best candidate. And what we have learned over the years is that we also need to do work with the employers on how to set the new higher up for success and and keep them happy and help them with success on ongoing because we’re seeing, we started doing a survey of our people. We placed last year in 2021 we placed 100 and 65 people and we have been reaching out to them At different points like 30 days in 60 days and 90 a year to find out. Did they feel like the recruitment process was professional? Was it a good representation of where they were going? And then what was, you know, what is it like at the company And what we’re hearing? A lot of is I wasn’t really, I’m generalizing here but I wasn’t really set up for success. I wasn’t given the resources I needed to be successful or sometimes it wasn’t as described, which means we we didn’t get the correct information from from the employer because what what also seems to happen sometimes is the employer things change quickly in organizations and sometimes they change the position so they might not change position title, but then they changed the expectations around the position and that’s not what was quote sold to the candidates. So if and sometimes it happens and it’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how the organization, the direction is moving. And I always recommend just just be up with with your new hire and talk to them and figure out is this the right fit for you? And how can we work with you? So that it can be the right fit and maybe there’s somebody else in the organization where it’s a better fit and you can put this person in a position that will work for them,

[00:35:53.34] spk_1:
but at least be upfront and talking about these things. So we kind of melded a couple of these together. So why don’t you just read through one through six? So it’s clear that we’ve covered everything.

[00:36:20.94] spk_2:
Okay, So the first one is why does the position exist next? Or what are the results or outcomes needed from this position? And I think we just grazed over that one. And one of the things I do want to mention that I didn’t mention earlier related to that question is I’m a big fan of,

[00:36:31.86] spk_1:
I even asked you if there were more

[00:37:51.80] spk_2:
my brain. Okay, so I’m a big fan of result oriented job descriptions and and that means, you know, writing the job description for the results that you’re looking for. So I think this question is really important and sometimes you can get a really great candidate from a different industry who has accomplished something very close to what you’re looking to accomplish from this position. So, so the more clear on what you’re looking for, what, you know what we always ask, what will give this person a great performance evaluation in 90 days, What would they have accomplished for you to say A plus for them in the 1st 90 days and, and and then different segments of, you know, the next time line, so that I just wanted to make sure I cover that. So the next question is, um what skills and experience are needed to do this job successfully? What is specific traits, we call them success traits or attributes that make a person successful in this position. What are the specific you’re set fit in your organizational culture? We’re talking about core values. And then lastly, um why did team members stay with you? And why did they leave

[00:38:34.50] spk_1:
question. What about um salary? Now we’re now we’re jumping outside of discovery. But you and I talked earlier when we were getting to know each other about salary range disclosures, job descriptions, which is becoming so much more important. New york state just passed a law that requires it. Um I thought I had seen that in Oregon too. I might be mistaken about that. You hadn’t heard of that one, but at least we know new york state has, has passed that law and other states are considering it. And just it’s just, it’s a movement apart from whether it’s legal or not legally required

[00:38:39.84] spk_2:
or not right

[00:38:41.58] spk_1:
share your opinion on disclosing salary or arrange a description.

[00:39:28.85] spk_2:
It’s always been a best practice. And now in many states, like you mentioned tony it’s a law. Um, and I think at some point it will probably be a law and in just about all states. The reason for it, there’s, there’s several reasons, but one of the main reasons that’s become a law in a lot of states is because in the past, um, there’s been a lot of bias and discrimination when it comes to pay. When you think about how women have been paid or different cultural groups or background? Exactly. And so if you are not transparent about your salary and you then, because I hear this a lot from employers, well, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m going to pay. We’ll see what the person made before. Well, all that’s doing is contributing to the bad uneven inequitable from the perpetuating. Thank

[00:39:49.71] spk_1:
you.

[00:40:38.04] spk_2:
Right. So what you need to do is think about What can you pay, what do you think the return is for this position that your organization can afford. Um, and what is it worth to the value that’s going to be contributed and and create a range there and don’t make the range 100,000. I usually recommend. I see sometimes do. Exactly. I usually recommend, you know maybe a $10,000 range, maybe a $20,000 range. Um not much more than that. And and you can decide based on what what that person you’re hiring is going to bring, how much training you need to give them. I’m up to speed. Um The other thing is it just waste your time if you’re not transparent

[00:40:43.08] spk_1:
upfront,

[00:40:43.84] spk_2:
it wastes the jobseeker’s time and it wastes your time because everybody

[00:40:49.11] spk_1:
well

[00:40:57.37] spk_2:
look at the job and have different thoughts on what it’s going to pay. So I may apply for the job Thinking that it’s going to pay 100,000 and you’re only planning to pay 40,000. And if we don’t get to that until the third interview, well we’ve wasted so much time and it just frustrates both of us so that no

[00:41:13.74] spk_1:
candidate is going to ask about salary in the first interview. Maybe not even in a second if they know there’s another coming

[00:41:24.16] spk_2:
and less candidates are going to apply for your job if they don’t know what because they’re afraid they’re gonna waste their time. And they often feel like

[00:41:31.35] spk_1:
because

[00:41:31.87] spk_2:
you’re not being transparent with that you might not be transparent with other things as well, so you might not be the right employer for

[00:41:51.70] spk_1:
them. Um And just let’s let’s kind of wrap up with what you are seeing in our sort of trend one or two things that you, you want folks to know about, you know, in this post pandemic hiring environment that we find ourselves,

[00:42:19.05] spk_2:
People are looking for their passion, their looking for, not just the passion connected to the mission that the company that that is a big part of it, but they’re looking for a place they can call home, they’re looking for flexibility. They’re looking for an environment that they’re happy to go to work and it doesn’t matter the

[00:42:26.12] spk_1:
level of

[00:44:01.07] spk_2:
the position. Um Pay is also important. They want to be paid what they feel their worth. And because pay, we’re seeing a big trend and increase of pay. Um uh you know, jobs that have paid one amount for decades are now have, have, we’ve seen large jumps in them. Um but then I’ve seen where candidates have been willing to take a pay cut if it means they could work from home or they could have more flexibility or it’s something that they truly believe in. And I have seen a great trend of candidates of job seekers who have left or actually even gotten laid off during the pandemic from high paying, high pressure jobs that are now saying they want a job in a nonprofit in something that they truly believe in. And they usually have a specific type of nonprofit or type of mission that they have in mind because it’s something important to them specifically. And I’m not saying that there isn’t anyone, but for them individually. And I think the pandemic has really, it’s created this thing in all of us where life short, right? Like it. I want to just do something I want to be contributing in a way that that works for me on both my time and what, what’s important to me. And I think that’s important as you go out and recruit people and as you work with people as well to keep that in mind,

[00:44:10.04] spk_1:
a lot of us have heard from

[00:44:11.95] spk_2:
people who want

[00:44:50.27] spk_1:
to want to now give back. That was even pre pandemic. But I think the pandemic accelerated it being more reflective about their career because of the pandemic people question their own mortality. And in the early days of the pandemic, we didn’t know if, if you were 30 if they could kill you or if you were 75 if it could kill you or or if one was a greater risk than the other. We didn’t know, People were really questioning a lot of things in life and obviously career is enormous. So, um, you know, we, we see so much about nomads, digital nomads traveling the US traveling the world and moving and working from a completely different time zones and completely different atmospheres because they want to have a richer life, but they still need to make some money. So they’re happy to work from wherever, if you’ll allow

[00:45:37.45] spk_2:
it. And if the type of position you have available, if you’re able to think maybe a little outside the box and make it either a hybrid or remove or add some of that flexibility in that is so important to people now and and they because of the pandemic where they saw companies and organizations, they will take,

[00:45:39.73] spk_1:
oh

[00:45:40.02] spk_2:
no, we don’t do that here as an answer. Then there’s then there’s, you know, then that’s not for me. Plus

[00:45:45.80] spk_1:
as

[00:45:59.01] spk_2:
things started to let up just a little bit during the pandemic was still pretty early on. The question I got over and over again from candidates was what will happen um with this position if if we end up having to shut down again, if we have another pandemic and I haven’t been hearing as much of the past year, but that first year or heard a lot because they do not want to be laid off again, you know, they wanted. So you might want to think about that as well. It’s not just because they want the flexibility. They also want that security that they know if a pandemic hits again, they’ll still be able to make a living.

[00:46:28.27] spk_1:
Okay? We’re in the we’re in the Israeli desert Negev were descending as you

[00:47:00.14] spk_3:
heard going 425 m down underneath the most the worst place on earth, that’s a dead sea. Now the lights that you see on the other side, this is already another country, this is George. The border between Israel and Jordan is exactly in the middle of the day,

[00:47:32.52] spk_1:
I should have said that Michael is originally from Denmark but lives in Israel and as a tour guide here, so with Andrea Hoffer, founder and ceo of Aha recruiting experts, ha underscore recruiting and Aha recruiting experts dot com. Andrea, thank you so much. Real pleasure. Thank you for doing this on a bus in the Israel desert.

[00:47:41.47] spk_2:
It was fun. Thank you in different.

[00:48:02.57] spk_0:
Thank you for hanging in with the weird sound this week. I know it’s up and down and it’s crackly. I really wanted to capture the conversation with Andrea, we’re sitting side by side. And how many shows do I get to record in the Israeli desert and and plus you got to learn about the desert from Michael. So thank you. I know it’s

[00:48:14.13] spk_1:
weird, it’s weird

[00:49:07.45] spk_0:
this week. Thanks very much. Next week. Traven Heckman with his book. Take Heart, Take action. I know last week I said he’d be this week I need an intern if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Our creative producer is claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation, scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for November 28, 2022: Thought Leadership & Content Strategy

 

Peter Panepento & Antionette KerrThought Leadership
Peter Panapento and Antionette Kerr co-authored the book, “Modern Media Relations for Nonprofits.” They share their insights on how to build relationships with journalists so you get heard as the thought leader you are. Plus, other media strategies, like crisis communications. This was part of our coverage of the 2020 Nonprofit Technology Conference.

 

 

 

 

Valerie Johnson & Katie GreenContent Strategy
Now that you’re an established thought leader, you need to produce multichannel content that’s relevant. Also engaging, actionable, user friendly and SEO friendly. Also from 20NTC, Valerie Johnson from Pathways to Housing PA and Katie Green with The Trevor Project show you how.

 

 

 

 

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[00:02:38.49] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. I hope you enjoyed your thanksgiving. I hope you enjoyed the company of family friends, time for yourself as well. Lots of lots of good thanksgiving holiday wishes, I hope you enjoyed very much and I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be forced to endure the pain of epidermal Asus below psA if you gave me the blistering news that you missed this week’s show. Thought leadership, Peter Pan a pinto and Antoinette car co authored the book modern media relations for nonprofits. They share their insights on how to build relationships with journalists so you get heard as the thought leader you are plus other media strategies like crisis communications. This was part of our coverage of the 2020 non profit technology conference and content strategy. Now that you’re an established thought leader, you need to produce multi channel content that’s relevant, also engaging actionable user friendly and S. E. O friendly. Also from 20 N. T. C. Valerie johnson from pathways to housing P A. And Katie Green with the Trevor project. Show you how Antonis take two. I’m still wishing you well. We are sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O here is thought leadership with me now are Peter pan a pinto and Antoinette car. Peter is philanthropic practice leader at turn two communications, Antoinette is part of the leadership team of women advance and ceo of bold and bright media. They are the co authors of the book Modern media relations for nonprofits. Peter Antoinette welcome. Yes. I’m glad we could work this out among the three of us. Thank you. And uh, it’s good to know that you reach well and safe in your respective locations. Okay.

[00:02:39.44] spk_1:
Thank you. Yes.

[00:02:51.33] spk_0:
Okay. I, yes, I see. No one within six ft of you. That’s good. Even though you are home, we’re talking about thought leadership and media. Let’s, uh, let’s start with you Internet. We can, we can use our leverage thought leadership and use the media to, uh, to influence those who are engaged with us, our constituents and even influence policy.

[00:04:02.66] spk_2:
So the media needs experts and non profits are on the ground there doing the work and they are the perfect folks to be experts in this conversation um, in particular and emergency Peter non talks about earlier about crisis communications and in a lot of situations the media scrambling looking for experts. If you have established yourself as a thought leader, which is what you should aspire to do. I know that turn to does the work in helping people to kind of establish themselves with the thought leader in this conversation. But right now we need people with good information and who can provide great stories for example and nonprofits can do that and they can do that work. And that’s why the thought leadership conversations important. Most nonprofits don’t see themselves needing to do that. It’s not the first thing we think about, we think about fundraising, right? Um, but not necessarily media friend raising. And so now is the time that you want to have those relationships and be considered as a thought leader.

[00:04:18.59] spk_0:
Because when there’s news that relates to your mission, um, your call is more likely to be taken, your email is more likely be answered. If there’s that pre existing relationship you mentioned. But if if everybody in the sector is calling all the, all the media blindly, then it’s just sort of a crapshoot whether they answer you or not or

[00:05:38.32] spk_2:
if you think about the media needing like, you know, going to a crisis example, like the media needing a source or an expert And they don’t want to quote the same person that’s, you know, something that I’ve learned from my media background and training. I’ve been working as a journalist since 1995. And you know, one thing that my editors say, you know, don’t quote the same person, don’t quote the same organization. So in a crisis people will call big box non profit sometimes. Um, and they’ll just see them as being the experts for a conversation. And that’s why establishing yourself as a thought leader is so important. So someone can say, you know, I’m a unique voice about this. We have an example in our book modern media relations where um, someone who an organization that worked with Children and families involved in domestic violence became very important in the conversation when a professional athlete in in Georgia was convicted of family violence and all of a sudden that person was called upon to be on radio shows and talk shows and they became a thought leader. But they done the work to position themselves as an expert. And so I know Peter you, I know you have some examples as well, but we just kind of dived in there and and didn’t talk about the whole broad concept about leadership.

[00:06:04.05] spk_0:
Well, all right, well, um peter, I was gonna ask you, how do we start to build these relationships? Um you wanna do you want to back up what thought leadership is?

[00:08:02.93] spk_1:
Sure, I’ll start with thought leadership defined and that and that’s really um the process of establishing one’s expertise in a in a specific area and and and doing it in a way where they are recognized beyond their own organization, in their own kind of immediate networks, as a, as an expert as a thought leader. Somebody who is driving the conversation and really really helping people better understand a key issue or a topic. So for a nonprofit or a foundation, a thought leader might be your ceo um who or executive director, somebody who um is at the front lines uh and and kind of is in a in a position where they um not only have expertise but they have some authority and being able to talk with some gravitas about a topic, um but um in order to kind of establish your credentials there um and get recognized, you have to do some legwork beyond just having that expertise. You have to be um you have to be comfortable talking about that topic. You have to um you have to spend some time kind of building the relationships and the and the and the the larger credibility that you are, somebody who has something interesting to say and the expertise to back it up. Um and the more you do that, and you can do that not just through the media, but through your own channels and through speaking at conferences and and all kinds of other things. Um the more you do that, the more you kind of become uh somebody who is recognized and is called upon to weigh in on important topics or or when news events call for it or in a situation like what, where we are now with with the covid 19 response, Somebody who can kind of come in and bring a voice of reason and perspective to what’s going on around us.

[00:08:31.98] spk_0:
So you have to lay the groundwork there, there has to be some fundamentals and you have to have your gravitas and you you need to appear bona fide and be bona fide not just appear, you have to be bona fide on the topic that you’re that you’re an expert in the mission of, of your, your nonprofit. How do you then start to when you have that groundwork? How do you then start to build relationships when there isn’t really a need for you to be talking about the subject?

[00:09:39.59] spk_1:
Sure, there are a lot of ways to do that one is that you, um, you start to build some personal relationships with media who are covering these topics. And you can do that either through, you know, somebody on your communications team that helps you, or you can kind of do it yourself, but you can, you can start to show up in, in their coverage of stories by, um, by um, positioning yourself and, and building relationships with individual reporters. Maybe even when they don’t need you by having an informational coffee or call so that they can get to know you and know what you stand for. Um, you can do it by your through your own writing and, and public speaking and making those things available and accessible to the media. Um, and you can, you can do it through your own channels to a lot of nonprofits have blogs, they have, uh, they have their own podcasts. They have different ways where they’re positioning their internal experts externally so that they’re kind of talking about and establishing their credentials around around a subject. And

[00:09:41.01] spk_0:
that’s your, that’s your owned media, right. That’s your own media versus earned media?

[00:10:12.00] spk_1:
Yes. Yes. And, and the value of that, is that the more you’re, you’re kind of demonstrating through your own media channels, your expertise, you’re not only building um some greater relationships and and credibility with your donors and the folks who are already kind of in your network, but you start to show up when people are doing searches or when people are on social media and seeing stories and articles that are passed around, if they may see something you’ve written or talked about, shared in another network, and it it sparks a light for them that you’re somebody worth going back to when they need, um when they need some, you know, somebody like you to weigh in on something.

[00:10:52.96] spk_0:
Okay, peter, I know you and Antoinette are both former journalists. Uh, so I’m gonna jump over to Antoinette for what Antoinette, what what what do these outreach, I guess, calls and emails to journalists to try to build the relationship. Uh what what do they what do they look like? What would you suggest people are saying to, to try to get the attention um to build the relationship, not, not when I’m looking to be quoted because there’s a breaking news, but to build the relationship.

[00:12:33.00] spk_2:
So, full disclosure. I’m a current journalist. Um so, yes, so I I still work for publications right now. Um and so people contact me on twitter and social media, which is a new thing. We talk about press releases. I’m a big fan of press releases, um yes, just full disclosure about that. But I still like for people to pitch me on social media, direct messages through twitter. If I’m using my company profile, it’s safe for nonprofits to contact me and say, hey, I have a story. I noticed that you’re interested in this concept, it’s always great when people know what I’m interested in. Like when they’re like, I noticed that you publish a lot of stories like right now I’m working on a story, a series of stories about missing and murdered indigenous women. And so when people see, oh, I notice you’re publishing stories about this and they pitch me on a direct message or um through facebook messenger even and say, hey, would you consider this the story and here’s the angle. Um or have you thought about, you know, I’ve had other people reach out and say I noticed you’re publishing these types of stories about, you know, missing and murdered indigenous women. Have you considered other stories about violence against women and it’s always a really great connection for me. So I think just kind of knowing what the journalist is interested in is really important, kind of, understanding their angle. Sorry, y’all, um understanding their angle and just flowing from there and saying, you know, here’s how we fit into this conversation is always a wonderful

[00:12:46.00] spk_0:
um so outreach by any of the social channels is fine too, you talk about twitter and direct message facebook, those are all

[00:12:56.47] spk_2:
yes and people tagging me like I feel like if a journalist is using their profile in a way that is professional then you’re safe to contact them and them in that way.

[00:13:11.60] spk_0:
Okay. Yeah, yeah peter anything you want to add to? Yeah, I think

[00:14:13.09] spk_1:
that I think is dead on about making sure though that when you do that, you are, you are, you’re you’re not coming with something that’s off the reporters beat or off of um what’s what, what you know, is um what they cover uh or the type of story they cover within that beat. Um you could spend a lot of effort reaching out to every journalist you see on twitter about your specific cause, but if they don’t cover your cause um you know, it doesn’t relate to what they what they do, then they’re probably either going to ignore you or or start to block you because you’re, you’re, you’re kind of almost spamming them. So um it’s it’s important to be targeted with who you reach out to as well and and make sure that you understand that journalists and their work before you before you do your outreach and come at them with a pitch that they don’t necessarily want. So yes, I think it’s really important to to do a bit of that homework up front um and respect that journalist time and if you do that and if you come at them with something that is actually on, on their beat and is of interest to them. Um, then I think you have a much greater chance of getting their attention and getting them to want to follow up with you and and help further, um, the relationship beyond that initial pitch

[00:14:32.47] spk_0:
and

[00:15:31.85] spk_2:
Tony, can I share a pet peeve like to Pet peeves actually is, um, if I write about a non profit and they don’t share the story on their own social, it’s just, it’s heartbreaking for me. Um, a lot of times I have to fight for these stories to appear and I have to fight with an editor to say, this is why this is newsworthy. This needs to be here. And then the nonprofit really doesn’t share the story. And I think, well, you know, I don’t write for my own, you know, just for it not to be shared. Um, and then the other thing is I love when nonprofits support stories that aren’t related to their particular story. So I’ll start noticing like one thing, um, Kentucky non profit Network, for example, before they ever shared or were involved in anything that I was involved in, they started sharing things or liking things that I would publish as a reporter and I didn’t know anything about them, but I thought that was interesting. So that when they pitch something, then you’re more likely to notice it as a, as a reporter, you’re more likely to notice because you feel like they’re really genuinely interested in the conversation, even if it doesn’t apply to them, you’re still interested

[00:15:51.29] spk_0:
Internet. Where are you writing now?

[00:15:58.07] spk_2:
I am writing, working on a piece for Guardian. I am for the Guardian. I am writing for Women Advance, which we have our own network. And then I write for Halifax Media group publications. So I’m on the regional circuit, doing all the fun things.

[00:16:13.38] spk_0:
Halifax is nova Scotia.

[00:16:22.99] spk_2:
No, Halifax is a media group in the United States. They own a series of their own regional newspapers across the country. So

[00:16:28.59] spk_0:
let’s talk a little about crisis management. You wanna, can you get us started with how you might approach crisis communications Antoinette.

[00:16:38.11] spk_2:
I thought that was Peter’s question. I’m just kidding.

[00:16:40.29] spk_0:
No,

[00:16:41.31] spk_2:
I’m just kidding. Um, crisis communications, I think actually Peter is a really great person to talk about this. My crisis communications conversation really has shifted with what we’re going through. So I don’t want to make it so unique to our current situation. Um, so I’ll let Peter start and then Peter, I can back you up on it if that’s

[00:18:50.46] spk_1:
okay. Yeah. So, um, with crisis communications, it’s really important to not wait until the actual you’re actually in a crisis to put your plan together. It’s really important to, to have a protocol that you’ve set up when you’re not in the middle of a crisis of possible to really kind of put together uh some protocols for not only what you’re going to say, but who’s going to say it and how you’re going to communicate during that situation. So um what does that protocol look like one? Is that you um upfront, you designate who your spokesperson or spokespeople are going to be ahead of time um and you spend some time ahead of that coaching them up in terms of what some of the key messages for your organization are, regardless of what the crisis might be. Some things that you would broadly want to try to reinforce and kind of a mood and a tone that you’re gonna want to take with what you’re talking about. Um do that 1st 2nd, is that you would really want to have a system in place for how you activate that for how you activate your crisis plan and your crisis communications. So that essentially means that you want to um you want to make sure that you know, kind of who who needs to sign off on what you’re going to talk about, who you’re gonna be involving in your decisions on whether you need to put out a statement um who how you’re going to communicate in what different channels, the more you can make those decisions ahead of time and have your structure in place, the better equipped you are to actually respond during a crisis situation and be able to get a quick and accurate and positive message out um in in in a situation and often crises are not their crisis because they’re not expected, but you can be planning ahead so that you you are able to react quickly and authoritatively during that situation. Um

[00:19:07.87] spk_0:
you’re you’re compounding the crisis if you’re not prepared.

[00:19:12.53] spk_1:
Absolutely,

[00:19:13.33] spk_0:
You’re scrambling to figure out who’s in charge, who has to approve messages, where should messages go? All, all which are peripheral to the to the substance of the problem.

[00:20:12.02] spk_1:
Absolutely. And in today’s world, where crisis can really mushroom not only in the media, but on social media, the longer you’re allowing time to pass before you’re getting out there with with your statement and your response to it, the worst the worst the situation gets for you. So you really need to position yourselves uh to be able to respond quickly to respond clearly and to respond accurately. Um and and it’s important to note that, you know, that planning ahead of time is really critical, but what you say in the situation is also critical to um you do want to make sure that you communicate truthfully. That doesn’t necessarily mean that um uh you uh u um reveal

[00:20:14.17] spk_0:
everything,

[00:20:14.72] spk_1:
reveal everything

[00:20:15.67] spk_0:
exactly

[00:20:18.45] spk_1:
do uh that you do reveal is accurate. It’s not gonna come back to bite you later. It’s not going to mislead people

[00:20:31.86] spk_0:
talking about complicating the complicating the crisis if you’re lying or misleading, it comes back. I mean, people investigate things get found out.

[00:20:36.17] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I, and I, and I was

[00:20:38.82] spk_0:
technically expanded your problem.

[00:21:42.71] spk_1:
Absolutely. And and you’d be surprised how, how many times when I was a journalist that people, if they had just come clean and and kind of got the truth out there right away, they may have taken a short term hit, but their lives would have got on fine after that. But the more you try to obfuscate or or lie about the situation, or or try to to spin it in a way where you’re, you’re kind of hiding the truth that the worse your situation is going to get. So be be in a position to be as transparent and clear and accurate as possible. Um, with that first statement, uh, knowing that in some cases you might have to say, you know, we don’t know. Um, but we’ll follow up when we do know, because sometimes a crisis situation is one in which speaking of, of when we’re in now, we don’t know all of the, all of the different twists and turns the covid 19 situation is going to take. Um, so, but but rather than trying to speculate, um or or or in some cases, as we’ve seen, some, some public figures do try to spin this one way or another, rather than just saying, here’s the situation here are concerns, Here’s what we know, here’s what we don’t know. Um, it compounds the situation and in some cases it can be dangerous to

[00:22:01.82] spk_0:
people internet, You wanna, you wanna back up a little bit? I

[00:22:38.74] spk_2:
Did. So the, I think the statement, um, I love how people are putting forward these COVID-19 statements and I think we need to have more statements like that. I mean these statements are demanding and people feel like that. But I’m like we could do more of that. We could have statements as nonprofits on issues on public issues, public concerns, things that are um, emerging and urgent for people. I think about in the eastern part of north Carolina because tony I know you’re in, in my home state. I am

[00:22:40.58] spk_0:
in eastern north Carolina.

[00:23:26.54] spk_2:
Happy to have you here. And when we have um, hurricanes, when we have issues like that, if non profits would put out statements like they have with Covid 19 if they felt like they needed to say here’s where we are, here’s what we do here. Here’s, here’s what we have to offer before during after and just update them. You know, I feel like this crisis has brought forward a level of communication and and help people to see the necessary level of communication that we need to have. But we don’t have that all the time is non profits and people are looking for that. So I feel like in the eastern part of north Carolina where we had, um, you know, 100 year, hurricanes within three months of each other that we didn’t think would happen. You know what if people, what if people make covid statements like that? I mean, what if people and so I’m just gonna start calling the covid statements peter that I don’t have a better term for. But what if we felt like we needed to make these types of statements when there’s an emergency,

[00:23:51.92] spk_0:
um, Antoinette, I’m gonna ask you to wrap up with something that you said, which is contrary to a lot of what I hear. Uh, you said that you’re a big fan of press releases.

[00:24:02.00] spk_2:
Could

[00:24:03.26] spk_0:
you take us out with your rationale for why? You’re a big fan of them. I’ve heard that they’re pretty much obsolete

[00:24:10.20] spk_2:
from a journalist. I

[00:24:12.51] spk_0:
don’t know from a commentator. I

[00:24:14.37] spk_2:
don’t want to write that.

[00:24:17.47] spk_0:
I

[00:24:27.93] spk_2:
believe that. I believe that. Um, so yes, because I’ve been reading press releases for a long time and I feel like the who, what, when, where and how gets me past that part of it, then I can ask you all the interesting questions. So if you can give me that in a way that I can cut and paste and I will not butcher someone’s name, like tony

[00:24:43.54] spk_0:
It

[00:24:55.22] spk_2:
might be, it might be a challenge. So I can, we can get all of that out of the way. But a good press release gets me excited as a journalist. It brings me into the conversation and if you aren’t excited about your press release. I can probably tell on the other end. So I had a good press release. All

[00:25:15.51] spk_0:
right, thank you. We’re gonna leave it there. That’s contrary advice. Which which I love hearing. All right. That’s uh that’s Antoinette car part of the leadership team of women advance and ceo of bold and bright media and also Peter Pan a pinto, philanthropic practice leader at turn two communications and they are co authors of the book modern media relations for nonprofits, Antoinette Peter, thank you very much for sharing. Thanks so much. Thanks for

[00:25:28.62] spk_1:
having us. tony

[00:27:19.59] spk_0:
pleasure. Stay safe. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 N. T. C. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Well, as you heard lots of ideas about the relationships, the relationships that will help you be the thought leader that you want to be. That you ought to be relationships leading to thought leadership. Turn to communications. They’ll help you do it. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. It’s time for Tony’s take two. I am still thinking about you and wishing you well. I hope you had recovery time over Thanksgiving. If you’re in giving Tuesday, I hope you’ll be happy with your results or you are happy depending when you listened. If you are, if you did congratulations, celebrate what you achieved. Take that victory lap you deserve it. If you’re not so happy, keep your head up, you know that you did the best that you could, don’t let it drag you down. You have other successes that are gonna be coming and you’ll be celebrating those. So don’t let a disappointment drag you down going forward. You have all my good wishes for your year end fundraising this week and continuing That is Tony’s take two here is content strategy, which by the way, we have boo koo, but loads of time left for Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 N T C. That’s the 2020 nonprofit technology conference. My guests now are Katie Green and Valerie johnson, Katie is Digital Giving Manager for the Trevor Project. And Valerie johnson is director of institutional advancement at pathways to housing P A Katie and Valerie welcome.

[00:27:44.11] spk_3:
It’s

[00:28:07.84] spk_0:
a pleasure. Good to good to talk to both of you and glad to know that you’re each safe and and well in in Brooklyn and uh, suburban philadelphia. Glad you’re with us. Your NtC workshop was content strategy for donor engagement From tactics to testing, let’s start with you, Katie, what what do you feel was the need for the session. What are nonprofits not getting doing so well, they could be doing a lot better.

[00:28:57.87] spk_3:
Yeah. So we have this session this morning at the same time as we originally had planned, which is great. We were able to give it virtually. And I think what a lot of donor content strategy is missing is simply structure. I think a lot of people don’t know where to start and they’re intimidated by it and we Valerie and I provide it’s some real life examples on how you can achieve a donor content strategy that does get you closer to your revenue goals. However, the tone of the presentation changed a little bit given how the world has come to be our new reality. So we did talk a little bit about the crisis and what it means for fundraising and what it means for content strategy under a tight timeline, knowing that things are changing at a really rapid pace. So really just structure and storytelling are the things that we talked about in this morning’s presentation, which will be available for viewing later, we’re gonna have a recording available for those who weren’t able to make it. But yeah, that’s what we focus on.

[00:29:27.47] spk_0:
Let’s start with part of the a good strategy is using personas, user personas. Can you kick us off with that Valerie? How do you, how do you start to identify what persona looks like and what’s their value?

[00:29:54.36] spk_4:
Absolutely. So, a persona is really like a profile or a character sketch of someone that you need to connect with um and understanding their motivations and goals. So it’s a way of segmenting your audience. And rather than sending all of your messaging out into the ether, trying to tailor that messaging to a specific demographic or a specific group of people. So for pathways to housing P. A. We’re actually still developing what our personas look like. We have an idea of what it looks like, but we want to dig some more into the research and analytic side of things to see who exactly is supporting us right now and what um ties they have in common to help us build those profiles. I think Katie might be a little bit further ahead of us in developing this persona. So I’m gonna toss it over to her.

[00:31:18.60] spk_3:
Yeah. So uh user personas are something I’ve been doing throughout my career. I worked in an agency before I came to the Trevor project. So I was able to get a lot of industry knowledge on how we create user personas and user journeys. But what we did, when we started looking at our end of year campaign for last year at the Trevor project, we made sure we carved out some time to conduct a little bit of an audit of what our donors were looking like, Where were they coming from? What could we track? What could we track? We found out we had a lot more questions than we did answers. So in order to get user personas, something that’s really important is tracking and understanding where people are coming from and where their first and last last clicks are. So because of our ability to use google analytics and source code tracking protocol. We did get a lot of tracking during end of year that will improve what our users like going into future campaigns. But now we’re gonna be able to better tell what is actually inspiring people to give. What is the moment where they’re actually clicking that donate button. What is the first thing they’re seeing that starting their relationship with the trouble project? So that’s what we’ve been doing.

[00:31:45.74] spk_0:
What are the pieces of a persona? How granular do you get? What is it where they live to what they read or what what you give us some like depth of this thing.

[00:33:34.60] spk_3:
Absolutely. So the main important piece of a persona is to know what their needs are. So you can have a persona that’s as general as this is a donor. They need to know how to give that’s a persona. But what you’d like to do is get a little bit deeper in being able to tell what the values of that persona are. What’s what’s the name? What’s the age? What’s the key characteristics? What are the opportunities really? You know, I like to create fake names and really go into it. You stock imagery so that you can try to connect with who this person might be? You’re really giving a face to a name and a value to a person and you want to look at what donors are looking like. So for example, for the Trevor project, we have a lot of one time, first time donors and we have a lot of people who come in, they give their first gift and I’m trying to find where they’re dropping off. Right. What is causing that? So I maybe create a persona that is a one time user that’s not really convinced they want to give again a one time donor. Um, they may be young. They may be, um, like within our demographic, which is under 25 of the youth that we serve with our crisis services and suicide prevention services. Um, so you can get as granular as making and they, and an age and the demographic and the location and what devices they’re using. I think that’s a big one. Is this person usually on their mobile? Are they usually on desktop? What channels do they typically like to look at twitter? You can get as granular email. Are they just looking at your website? So you know, it should get as detailed as you can, but I would encourage people to get really creative with it. If the more details you’re able to get is just a, just a more clear picture of a donor that you’re looking to target. Just make sure it’s someone you actually want to target and not someone you’re gonna be, uh, that wouldn’t actually be coming to you? Like maybe Bill Gates isn’t going to be coming to, uh, a nonprofit website to donate. Um, but you can look at what those specific donors might look like that are more realistic for your campaign.

[00:33:56.12] spk_0:
Okay. Right. You’re, you’re basically on what’s realistic, not what your aspiration is.

[00:34:22.36] spk_3:
Yeah. To a degree, I mean, I think you can be aspirational aspirational in some facets of what you’re doing. I think it has to be somewhat grounded in in, you know, a realistic approach. We do get asked. I get aspirational myself when I’m creating donor personas. When you know, I am looking for major gifts, I am looking for people who are willing to process of 15,000 dollar credit card charge. And there are people out there that that do that. So when I do my donor personas, they may not be the number one target of my campaign, but I do want to consider what those people are interested in as well so that I can personalize content for them to the best of my ability.

[00:34:53.03] spk_4:
Yeah. The other thing to keep in mind is diversifying your donor base. So in looking at who’s giving two pathways to housing right now, they’re mostly middle aged, college educated white women who prefer facebook and giving on a desktop, um, which is fine. And that’s definitely one category of people that you would want to be supporting you. But philadelphia is an incredibly diverse city. So if those are the only people that were getting to with our messaging, then we really need to think about diversifying our strategies to build new donor profiles for people who don’t all look the

[00:35:36.72] spk_0:
same? Okay. And then once you have a bunch of personas and profile? I mean, it sounds like you could have 10 or 12 really different ones, different, um yeah, different characteristics of people, different types of people that come to you. And, and like you said, Katie, even people who leave, you know, you want to capture them back. So, so once you have these Valerie, then you’re trying to communicate to them. But how do you how do you turn your communications into targets to to these personas?

[00:35:46.68] spk_4:
So you really want to think about building content specifically for that persona? So you might be doing a campaign um that you want to hit a couple of different

[00:35:56.37] spk_3:
personas

[00:36:07.97] spk_4:
with, but you’re gonna tailor that campaign specifically to each persona and deliver the message to a specific segment of that campaign. So if you’re gonna do a mail campaign, um, you want to think about how you’re putting together that letter and what you’re writing into the letter and how you’re addressing the donors for each of the different segments for each of the different personas that you’ve put together to really help craft a message and to inspire them specifically to donate.

[00:36:32.48] spk_0:
Okay, right, like Katie, like you were saying, you know, yeah, you know what’s important to them. Um, but that stuff is, this is very uh amorphous to try to, you know, it’s not just what do they give and how much do they give? And what time of year do they give, You know, what’s important to them? What do they value? This? Is this is difficult stuff to suss out.

[00:37:10.42] spk_4:
Yeah. One thing our co presenter said this morning, Marcus was that donors are smart and they’re savvy and with the advent of the internet and all of the various channels that you can communicate with people now, they know what they want and they know what they want to hear from you. And if they’re not hearing from you what they want, they’re gonna go find someone else who’s going to provide that information and communicate to them the way they want to be communicated with. So fundraising and marketing for nonprofits right now looks very different than it did maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago, um, and, and donors know what they want now.

[00:37:24.54] spk_0:
Okay, so it’s worth, you’re trying to suss out all this amorphous information as as best you can. Okay. Um, Katie, is there anything more you want to say about personas before we move on to being multi channel?

[00:37:36.13] spk_3:
Let’s go on to multi channel.

[00:37:40.11] spk_0:
Alright, Alright. Anything I don’t want to leave anything important.

[00:37:44.66] spk_3:
Okay. I think we’ve covered the main point.

[00:37:47.19] spk_0:
Okay. What’s, what’s, what’s important about? Well, I think we all know why to be multi channel, but how to coordinate those messages? What what’s your, what’s your thinking there?

[00:39:21.81] spk_3:
Yeah, I can jump in here. So I think what people often don’t do is they don’t coordinate messages cross channel at the right time. That’s what I’ve been seeing a lot with just by industry research. I mean, I’m always looking at what everybody is doing in the space because I want to be part of the best. Uh but they say being what I’ve heard at multiple conferences is that there’s a rule of seven. Right. So as a non donor, let’s say, I’m scrolling through facebook, I need to see an ask seven times before I’m actually likely to give. So if you’re seeing that ask seven times on facebook, that means it’s seven posts. That’s kind of a lot. And that’s gonna have to be spaced out through a certain amount of days, weeks, months even. So if you’re just increasing all the channels that you’re presenting that message on. So let’s say I’m seeing it on facebook, I’m seeing it in my email. I’m seeing it on my instagram. I’m getting a paid ad for it because I liked it on facebook. That’s gonna shorten the window of which I see seven points of that call to action. So I’m gonna be more likely to give if I’m seeing it in a wider spectrum on the digital space than I am in just one channel. So making sure that you’re saying similar things, but that are custom to what the channel is providing, Like social media has like paid ads have a certain amount of characters you can use. So, um, making sure it’s optimized for what channel you’re using, but still with the common thread is really important for increasing your conversion rate.

[00:40:05.59] spk_0:
Okay, now it’s a little clear to me why I see so many ads for the uh, pickpocket proof slacks. I see them across all kinds of different channels. I’m not, I’m hardly on facebook anymore. But um, I, I see them when I go to websites and I’m reading articles and because one time, I don’t know, I, I swear it was like three years ago I was browsing through these like CIA approved slacks with 14 pockets and it’s all supposed to be pickpocket proof for something and you know, they $200 slacks or whatever, they’re, you know, but

[00:40:08.62] spk_3:
I’ve

[00:40:09.74] spk_0:
seen ever since. Yeah. And I don’t know. I’m not even sure that if I bought them, the ads would stop, maybe

[00:40:16.43] spk_4:
it’s

[00:40:17.57] spk_0:
sophisticated enough. No, it’s not right. That would be right. Because now your brother needs to pay or whatever. All right,

[00:40:23.00] spk_3:
Valerie,

[00:40:24.15] spk_0:
anything you wanna, you wanna explain about multi channel and how, how important it is to reinforce and be consistent.

[00:41:16.62] spk_4:
I think the biggest thing for me is if you’re starting from scratch and you’re really trying to develop content and put it in the right places. Um, you really want to be thinking about who your audience is on those channels. So for, linkedin, the messaging that you’re putting out is gonna look a lot different than what you’re putting out on facebook. Most people use facebook recreationally and they use linkedin for professional relationships. So the type of information that someone is seeking on linkedin or more likely to respond to on linkedin is a lot different than what they’re more likely to look for or respond to on facebook. Um so for us, we make sure all of our job listings go up on linkedin and all of our industry specific information that goes up on linkedin, um just to kind of show our expertise in the area. But when we’re posting to facebook, we’re talking more directly to people that we know are supporters of us and want to do tangible things to support us. So the messaging is different, even though the information is really the same.

[00:41:31.44] spk_0:
Okay, okay, again, you’re consistent but consistent, but but different. Maybe different format even. Um Okay.

[00:41:39.99] spk_4:
Yeah.

[00:41:52.00] spk_0:
Um I mean, there’s there’s other format, you know, content papers, white papers. Um Again, depending for the right, you know, for the right channel research, um, do either of you use um, media, uh, working in working through thought leadership in developing thought leadership in media media relationships either of

[00:42:30.91] spk_4:
you. Yeah, so there’s a local media outlet here in philadelphia called generosity and they are focused on nonprofits and social enterprises and people who are making positive impact in philadelphia. So they’re super open to having folks guest post um, or write op EDS for them. So we’ve utilized that outlet a couple of times. Um, actually just last week, um, our ceo over wrote an article about the opportunity for kindness in the era of coronavirus. So it’s something that she actually wrote to communicate to our staff members and let them know what our stance on, you know, moving forward was going to be. And we thought it was something that would be beneficial, not just to our staff but to be at large. So we passed it along to them. They posted it as an op ed and that gave us um, a little bit more bang for our buck for things that we had already

[00:42:58.94] spk_0:
written. Um, Katie, are you doing much with earned media?

[00:43:03.08] spk_3:
I am not the Trevor project is, but Katie Green is not doing that. Okay, handled that.

[00:43:10.85] spk_0:
Okay. Um, let’s talk about some, some analytics. I mean, how do we know whether we’re being successful? Uh, and where we need to, where we need to tweak or pivot Katie, can you, can you get us started?

[00:44:29.28] spk_3:
Absolutely. So analytics is very hard for a lot of nonprofits because it’s such a scientific based skill set. And you know, that’s something that when I first came onto the Trevor project, is that the first thing I implemented was our source coding protocol. It’s so important to know where people are coming from that you can actually optimize, but we a B tested and continue to A B test absolutely everything. We do it through our website, we do it through email, we do it through our paid social and to see how things work. I think really we just test absolutely everything things you think you know you don’t and that’s what I keep learning through testing is what you think works today, won’t work tomorrow and we retest everything. A time of day test for example isn’t gonna for ascend for email, isn’t gonna be the same after daylight savings. It’s not gonna be the same as the seasons change and particularly not the same now that everybody is stuck at home. So you know they’re testing and optimizing really what you know is working. It just requires retesting re optimizing and testing literally.

[00:44:35.20] spk_0:
Could you, could you give some more examples besides time of day, what are examples of things you test?

[00:45:24.47] spk_3:
Oh absolutely. So on our website we tested, we have a little um call out box with questions on our donate form. We tested the placement of that. Is it better to have it right up next to the form underneath directly on top. So the first thing people see um we test there, we test what photos we use a lot does a photo of somebody looking sad versus somebody looking more celebratory and happy. Um we test a lot of pride imagery because we serve LGBTQ youth. We wanna see if Pride imagery actually helps get our word out there. Um We test our colors a lot because our our brand color is orange which is can be very cautionary but we see you thing oh it’s your brand color. Of course everybody’s gonna always respond to it. But that’s not really the case. Like sometimes things like our blues and purples and greens when it comes to see ta buttons. Um Gosh, I mean I can tell you every test we’ve ever run. Thunder tests um using graphics versus photos on the website. Uh you know the size, the width, the height of our light boxes, the width of our donation forms the amount of buttons we have. It just the list goes on and

[00:45:51.24] spk_0:
on.

[00:45:53.35] spk_3:
I

[00:46:13.51] spk_0:
heard one that just made me think of just one small example of what riffing off what you just said was testing the text inside a button instead of just donate or like uh review or something. You know, be more be more explicit about what the what the action is you’re asking for instead of just a single word. A little little more descriptive. Yeah

[00:46:32.93] spk_3:
testing C. T. A. Is is something that we do a lot just to give people some ideas. I think one that can be really helpful when it comes to fundraising is seeing how your donors react to the word give and the word support and the word donate. So so it’s all the same thing. We’re asking you to support our mission to give to us and to donate. But those three words have very different feelings when you’re reading them on your screen. So that’s one of the biggest tests we ran. Um, but yeah, I wouldn’t recommend always testing the C. T. A. When you have a new one especially,

[00:47:09.95] spk_0:
was it, was it act blue that or or change dot org? I think maybe it’s change dot org started calling it chip in. Could you chip in? Okay. Okay. Um, um, so Valerie, can you talk us through some metrics? You’re the director of institutional advancement? What what numbers do you look for to decide how you’re doing?

[00:48:23.15] spk_4:
Uh, we look at a lot of things. So we’re looking at the click through rates on our emails and on our post actually reading to the bottom and clicking the links that we’re providing. Um, we’re looking at how many people are interacting with things that were posting on social media and whether they are enjoying it or not based on how many people are interacting with it. Um, we do a lot of surveys to do, so, talking to our donors directly and asking them what kinds of things they want to see what kinds of things they don’t want to see. Um, I know Katie is doing a lot more with metrics than we are. So, um, this is my friendly reminder to smaller nonprofits where there’s just one person trying to do all of this. you don’t have to recreate the wheel. Um, so you can look at an organization like the Trevor project that does have the staff who can look at all of these things and do all of these testing and all of the metrics and see what’s working best and they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. So you can look at what they’re doing and then borrow it. Um, so for an organization like me that has a smaller staff, um, we’re doing a little bit on our own, but we’re also looking a lot at what other nonprofits are doing and assuming that they’re taking the time to test things and we’re kind of, you know, copying what they’re doing because it’s obviously successful for them.

[00:48:36.00] spk_0:
How do you learn from them? Do you just create a build a relationship and then ask what, what kind of metrics do you look at

[00:48:54.20] spk_4:
sometimes? And sometimes it’s as simple as going to the Trevor project, websites donate page and seeing where they place things and what they name their buttons and what giving levels they’re putting up there. Um, because you know, you’re never gonna be exactly the same as another organization. So you definitely want to take a look at who you’re using as an example and use someone who’s doing similar work or in a similar location to you. But at the end of the day, there’s only so much you can learn through testing and after that you’re just gonna have to dive in and do something. So if you don’t have time for the testing, you can do a quick search of what everybody in your industry is doing and kind of take it from there instead,

[00:49:20.34] spk_0:
Katie, uh, since everybody’s stealing from the Trevor project, what, uh, what I assume you knew Valerie was doing this.

[00:49:28.27] spk_3:
I didn’t, but it’s, it’s such a compliment.

[00:49:31.09] spk_0:
It’s

[00:49:32.63] spk_4:
because you do a great job. That’s why we’re looking at

[00:49:35.06] spk_3:
you. Oh gosh,

[00:49:36.48] spk_0:
what do you want to add about metrics?

[00:49:59.95] spk_3:
Um, I think I just wanna reiterate Valerie’s point that there are so many nonprofits where one person is doing this. Um I’m the only person on the digital giving team. I’m the first person they’ve ever hired to do Digital giving. Um I’m still a team member of one, but you know, I do have the support of a very large marketing team that helps me with creating all of the tests that we do and anyone can tweet me email me whatever if like any nonprofit ever wants to connect. I’m always an open resource. But uh, metrics are increasingly uh important, just critical to donors, content strategy. So

[00:50:21.55] spk_0:
since you’re offering yourself as a resource, do you want to share your email and or your twitter, you don’t have to give your email if you don’t want to.

[00:50:28.72] spk_3:
Yeah, maybe twitter is probably the best way to reach me because I’m trying, I’m trying to learn how to tweet more as a digital person. I feel like I need to, that it’s at Katie Sue Green like one word, so it’s K A T I E S U E G R E N K T. Still green green, just like the color. Okay,

[00:50:51.53] spk_0:
Okay, thank you. Um it’s a Valerie, you wanna uh wanna wrap us up some some parting thoughts about uh content strategy.

[00:51:18.42] spk_4:
Sure. Um since I am kind of representing the smaller organization here, I just want to remind everybody that you’re doing everything that you can and it’s everything that you’re doing is important. So don’t try to do everything at once, really pick one thing to focus on and get to a point where you’re doing that well and comfortably before you try to add more um listening to a podcast like this or going to a presentation, like the one that we did this morning is overwhelming in the number of things that you could be doing and it makes you feel like you’re not doing enough, but you are. And just tackling those small hills one at a time is much much easier than trying to climb the mountain.

[00:52:42.29] spk_0:
That’s very gracious, very gracious advice. Thank you. Thanks very much. Um that was Valerie johnson, that is Valerie johnson director of institutional advancement at pathways to housing P A. And with her is Katie Green Digital Giving Manager for Trevor Project. Thank you very much for sharing each of you. Thanks so much And thank you for being with Tony-Martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTCC in two weeks. Trafton Heckman with his book, Take Heart Take Action next week, I’m working on it. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein, Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for November 14, 2022: Your Corporate Funding

 

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[00:02:02.01] spk_0:
And welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with retinal Malaysia if I saw that you missed this week’s show your corporate funding in the boardroom Playbook, Lori’s ask Rosca gives you step by step strategies and healthy doses of encouragement to improve your corporate funding process. So you increase support and sponsorships. She’s with us to talk about her book. I’m Tony’s take two. I’m wishing you well. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome Laurie’s Oscar Oscar to the show. She’s author of the book, The boardroom Playbook, a not so ordinary guide to corporate funding for your purpose driven organization. She’s got over 22 years expertise in revenue generation management, corporate sponsorship, support, corporate cause marketing, fundraising, corporate social responsibility and more. She’s held key leadership and corporate sponsorship positions in organizations like PBS NPR local stations, Clear channel University of phoenix midwest campuses and citysearch dot com. Her company is the growth owl. She’s at Z ask Raska and the company is at the growth owl dot com. Welcome Wise owl.

[00:02:03.90] spk_1:
Well, thank you Tony. It is my pleasure to be here and thank you for that. Beautiful introduction. Oh,

[00:02:09.40] spk_0:
well based on what you sent me. It’s all, it’s all true And keep it, keep it factual, glad to have the wise owl the growth owl with US

[00:02:17.87] spk_1:
that’s right. Thank you.

[00:02:19.57] spk_0:
And you’re, you’re in the Cleveland Ohio area.

[00:02:22.19] spk_1:
I am, I’m in the Cleveland Ohio area but I work with clients across the country.

[00:02:28.18] spk_0:
I I know Cleveland for the rock and Roll Hall of fame.

[00:02:31.89] spk_1:
Yes. Probably one of the most popular attractions when people come to Cleveland, it’s definitely not miss when you come.

[00:02:38.28] spk_0:
I imagine it’s on my list. I haven’t been there yet. But have you been, do you go, you bring friends or? Yeah,

[00:02:43.69] spk_1:
absolutely. Yeah. Most friends who want to come to Cleveland first ask about the Rock hall. So it’s, it’s a definite visit site.

[00:02:50.40] spk_0:
Okay, you’ve heard this before. The Rock Hall, That’s the insiders call it the rock

[00:02:54.22] spk_1:
the rock hall, we call it the Rock hall. That’s

[00:02:56.13] spk_0:
right. Okay. All right. I wanna be, I wanna be a Cleveland insider. Alright,

[00:02:58.97] spk_1:
alright. You got it.

[00:03:01.64] spk_0:
So let’s talk about the boardroom playbook and corporate funding. I gather you feel that nonprofits are not strategic enough in their corporate funding work.

[00:03:14.92] spk_1:
You know, it’s been my experience that nonprofits do really, really well and individual giving, planned giving, um, other types of giving, but where sometimes

[00:03:28.02] spk_0:
something

[00:03:53.05] spk_1:
gets overlooked. I just noticed it tends to be in that corporate giving area and I, I personally see one of two things. Either there hasn’t been much attention to it or they’ve put somebody to oversee it that maybe is really in charge of something else like planned giving or membership or individual giving and they’ve added a corporate support function. And it’s kind of like, wow, this is something that you’ve just added to my responsibilities. That’s totally different than traditional types of fundraising. So I do see that there is a need to talk specifically about how corporate sponsorship and corporate funding works because it is very different than other types of fundraising.

[00:04:12.72] spk_0:
And you’ve been on both sides, you’ve you’ve been on the sponsorship side for like PBS and NPR stations.

[00:04:19.48] spk_1:
Yeah, I

[00:04:20.50] spk_0:
mean those are huge. Those are all big names. Those are marquee names, Yeah,

[00:04:23.82] spk_1:
yeah, it puts me in a very unique position, I’ve been on the client side, I’ve been on the funder side, I’ve also been on the side that, you know, is looking for the funding. So I’ve got a great perspective, I

[00:04:41.70] spk_0:
agree. So let’s, let’s let’s let’s pick your brain, you have, you have this um uh sort of a little paradigm me mi mo

[00:04:45.49] spk_1:
Yeah, mm. Oh

[00:04:47.04] spk_0:
yeah, explain, explain me mi mo of course we’re gonna have plenty of time to go into details, but yeah, it was the high level MIm mimo,

[00:05:27.08] spk_1:
So for years, people have asked me what’s your process, you know, what makes you different, what have you? So I like to say, I just work with me mi mo and to me an effective fundraiser, whether it be for corporate or other types of fundraising is aligning your mental, your message and your motion and that motion being the activity to get things done to get that funding. So putting all of those three together in alignment, making sure your head is in check, your messaging is in check and the activities are in check will be kind of the secret sauce to your cell success. So my book is broken out into me mi mo and you know, really taking a look at how can you really capitalize on the areas that you have strengths, but also work on those areas where maybe you don’t have as many strengths

[00:05:43.16] spk_0:
and you have a very, you know, a lot of lot of step by step, I mean very clear do these five things to do this to get this and to overcome your anxieties uh which we’ll get to that, we’ll get to your uh periwinkle zombies, you know, to overcome these things. Uh you know, do these five things. So you know, it’s very, it’s very strategic, it’s very, it’s a very, it’s a very easy reads, very good read,

[00:06:08.15] spk_1:
I appreciate that and it was purposely written that way because I know a lot of business books and other books quite frankly can be kind of overwhelming and I really wanted this to be practical that you walked away from it at least taking a few good nuggets that you can implement right after you put the book down.

[00:06:24.40] spk_0:
So let’s talk about the mental and of course you have to acquaint us with your perry winkle zombies.

[00:07:08.68] spk_1:
Ah yes, so perry winkle zombies, if you if you read in my book you’ll you’ll see the setup I have is I love horror movies, you know give me a good Freddy Jason would have you a good haunted house but what freaks me out are zombies just don’t like them, they just freak me out. So when I think about how your thoughts can overtake you, when you get anxious about something, it be anxious about going into a meeting to ask for a lot of money, it could be having anxiety about well gee how much money should I ask for and then things like imposter syndrome or basically anything that’s in your head that’s preventing you from doing what you need to do. I also like to say there are people in your life that can sometimes be perry winkle zombies that um you know maybe they’re they’re trying to do it out of out of a good nature from a good place but they can impede on your progress. So it’s very important early on in that mental stage that you recognize what those perry winkle zombies are that could prevent you from kind of being the best fundraiser you can be

[00:07:34.56] spk_0:
uh and there perry winkle because periwinkles, a pretty color kind of a soft violet but these things may they come in, they come in a nice shape sometimes

[00:07:47.77] spk_1:
but

[00:07:48.55] spk_0:
they are insidious like like zombies are

[00:08:26.61] spk_1:
exactly right, tony So sometimes those anxieties or sometimes when you question yourself, you think it actually might be helping you, but in actuality it’s hurting you, and that’s where the periwinkle, you know, comes into play, you know, at first it looks it looks good, but actually it is kind of impeding your process. So you wanna watch for those zombies in your life, what are their mental or actually, you know, in your sphere? And I talk about in my book, you know, I had a client that had a director of Development that um maybe unconsciously was being kind of a periwinkle zombie to the Executive Director and the executive director really wanted to do more with fundraising and the Director of Development said, you know, you kind of stay in your lane,

[00:08:37.63] spk_0:
you

[00:08:38.79] spk_1:
know, you gotta look out for those things,

[00:08:58.09] spk_0:
right? As if she, the fundraiser was portraying it as helpful, you know, there there are things that only you can do, so you should devote your time to those things, leave these more mundane things that any Schmo like me can handle, you know, not that she was self deprecating

[00:09:00.03] spk_1:
like that, right? It

[00:09:01.11] spk_0:
was, it was altruistic in appearance that she was, she was a zombie in sheep’s clothing.

[00:09:07.22] spk_1:
That’s right, rationally, it makes sense in the conversation. Well maybe she’s right, but at the end of the day it’s impeding your growth anytime you want to get educated or learn to do something more with in your career, that is not a bad thing, so zombies attacking you in that way periwinkle zombie, you definitely have to tear it down.

[00:09:26.50] spk_0:
Yes as as frightful as it may

[00:09:29.33] spk_1:
be.

[00:09:29.88] spk_0:
Uh Well thankfully that executive director had you working with her, so if you love horror movies you will appreciate that. I’ve been, I’ve been on this, not on the set, but I’ve been to the place where friday the 13th, the original with kevin with kevin Bacon, with the young kevin

[00:09:48.37] spk_1:
Bacon, that

[00:10:17.39] spk_0:
was filmed that was filmed at a Boy Scout camp Northern New Jersey and I used to go to that campus, it’s called Camp no be bosco, no be bosco stood for North Bergen Boy Scouts and there were the lodges lodges were there the log cabins were places where you could stay and then there was an administration building and uh I don’t know, I don’t know if the dining, I think the dining hall is where the costumes were. So one time I went and they were they were they were in the midst of filming, so we saw a bunch of the masks and costumes,

[00:10:27.83] spk_1:
I’ve

[00:10:28.13] spk_0:
been at the little Boy Scout camp is now you know that friday the 13th the original was filmed at a Boy Scout camp and the lake of course is right there, is it Crystal Lake is it, is

[00:10:37.37] spk_1:
it

[00:10:38.09] spk_0:
camp Crystal lake, right well the real name is nobody bosco. I’ve swam in that lake. I’ve rowed boats in that lake, so

[00:10:47.16] spk_1:
And no, Jason coming out from the water trying to attack you,

[00:10:50.13] spk_0:
Jason. Okay. So you’re the expert I want to show Jason or Freddy? Okay, Freddy. What’s the who’s the Freddy? What show is his

[00:10:56.47] spk_1:
Freddy is a nightmare on Elm Street.

[00:10:58.72] spk_0:
Elm Street. Okay.

[00:11:00.46] spk_1:
Yes,

[00:11:01.98] spk_0:
shout out one other. Okay, so we got Jason Freddy. What’s one more that

[00:11:05.93] spk_1:
Michael Myers from Halloween?

[00:11:08.92] spk_0:
Okay, Thank you. You’re proving that.

[00:11:10.82] spk_1:
Really? My favorite is Michael Myers. Yes.

[00:11:14.34] spk_0:
Okay. Obviously, proving your bona fides in your harbor films. That’s right. You know who these guys

[00:11:22.41] spk_1:
are? Is

[00:11:23.50] spk_0:
there ever a horror film with a woman? Is there ever a woman bad bad actor in? Is there any horror film like that?

[00:11:31.88] spk_1:
That’s a great question. And I’m sure there is. You’re just putting me on the spot

[00:11:36.82] spk_0:
right there and I can’t,

[00:11:37.92] spk_1:
I can’t think about it. I guess you could you know, if you think some of the movies that came from the conjuring, there’s the nun, there’s the female dolls that are kind of creepy Annabelle. Um those coming to my mind. Yeah,

[00:11:56.03] spk_0:
If you think of another main character, you know. No, no, no, that’s just off the top of my head. I just, I was saying they’re all guys. Well, okay, not surprisingly. Well, we’ll keep the gender stereotypes out of this.

[00:12:11.84] spk_1:
So.

[00:12:13.08] spk_0:
All right. So, we got to stay away from the periwinkle zombies there sometimes people and their sometimes just in our own head.

[00:12:19.69] spk_1:
That’s exactly right, yes,

[00:12:31.00] spk_0:
Alright, get away, you know, you don’t that doubt and that fear overcome that. Okay, what else? What else? Mental wise you you tell a good story about a gentleman you met on an airplane

[00:12:34.30] spk_1:
paul.

[00:12:35.28] spk_0:
Yeah. Story of paul, you know, that’s

[00:12:38.33] spk_1:
Since the book has come out, I probably get more questions about Paul and unfortunately I don’t know what happened to Paul because this this literally happened early in my career, like almost 22

[00:12:48.11] spk_0:
years, you know enough, you know, enough to make it a very good story.

[00:13:49.24] spk_1:
Yeah, so um you know, basically I was on a flight from Chicago to phoenix and I struck up a conversation with who is paul? He was in his, in his fifties, he just left his job in banking to just put all of his enthusiasm in the software start up and at the time I really didn’t understand what the software is about. I just got the, just this guy’s really excited and he was excited because he had the opportunity to basically go to phoenix and pitch a room of investors to invest in his business, kind of like shark tank before shark tank was the thing and I thought great, well you know paul um found out we were gonna be in the same return flight later in the week, so you know, I can’t wait to hear about your your big pitch and how it went. So it’s a few days later I’m walking in the airport on the concourse lo and behold there’s paul at the bar and looking just really, really sad. So I approached him, I asked paul how it went and he said it didn’t and I said what? He said, I didn’t go to the meeting

[00:13:53.14] spk_0:
and

[00:13:53.94] spk_1:
I said you didn’t go to the meeting? What happened? He said, I just was so scared and paralyzed that they would not like my idea, it just wasn’t worth it to go. And I stayed in my hotel room and that stayed with me

[00:14:08.28] spk_0:
for

[00:14:46.53] spk_1:
years and I always use that even with my clients and with myself, if I feel any type of doubt go to the meeting, Lori, you’ve you’ve got to go to the meeting, you you can’t do what paul did. And paul even said to me before you know, we left that day, Laurie always go to the meeting, don’t do what I did. And again, here’s me, I’m in my twenties, this is early in my career and I’m looking at this guy that seemed so successful and so confident when we were on the flight together, it was a totally different person and this is somebody that created something in his head, a situation that wasn’t even real. You know, he was anticipating he was going to get all of this pushback and they weren’t going to like them. And the sad part was when I saw him, he was actually on a cell phone. The old flip phones back then. I’m sure you remember those tony and he said, I

[00:15:02.67] spk_0:
remember, I remember princess remember princess phones. Yes,

[00:15:07.59] spk_1:
me too.

[00:15:09.32] spk_0:
I

[00:15:09.96] spk_1:
do. And he said I was actually on the phone talking to my old boss, getting my job

[00:15:16.16] spk_0:
back. It

[00:15:16.36] spk_1:
was heartbreaking. So, you know, I I also end the book reminding people about paul and you know, again, he sticks with me and it’s a it’s a great reminder that you can really allow yourself to create situations in your mind that really hijack the progress or hijack good things from coming in, not only for your funding, but in your life quite frankly. So yeah, that’s my story of paul.

[00:15:44.98] spk_0:
I hope you didn’t sit next to him on the way back, did you? Because that would be an awful long.

[00:15:49.57] spk_1:
We did not.

[00:15:51.25] spk_0:
Okay, okay. That would be that would be a tough flight

[00:15:56.89] spk_1:
home.

[00:17:14.58] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, the relationships, the relationships with media, we’re talking today with Laurie about relationships with corporate funders. You need to have relationships with the folks in the media who you want to be responsive when there’s something in the news that you need to comment on, you just have to be heard. Your voice needs to be part of the conversation around something, whatever the news hook is or just you want to get an op ed in. It may not be uh something that is based on a news hook, but something you feel strongly about, you need to be heard. This is all part of being a thought leader in your field. Turn to can set you up with relationships that can get you heard when you need to be and just when uh when you want to be, nothing wrong with wanting to be heard, turn to communications, your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Now, back to your corporate funding. You you talk in a few places about managing expectations.

[00:17:19.68] spk_1:
Oh yeah,

[00:17:20.67] spk_0:
your own, your organization. Let’s let’s let’s get that out in the while. We’re talking about the first me of the memo.

[00:17:28.16] spk_1:
Yeah. So I think managing expectations is really important. So let’s start with managing expectations kind of in your own building. And it

[00:17:44.62] spk_0:
could have, we could have, we could have Mimi ma’am. Oh, that’s Oh yeah. If you want to do mental message, manage expectations and but then that’s two words. It ruins your cadence. But

[00:17:47.49] spk_1:
right, you got it,

[00:17:48.68] spk_0:
trying to mess up. You don’t want to mess up your mantra.

[00:17:51.18] spk_1:
That’s alright.

[00:17:52.86] spk_0:
I just thought of. All right.

[00:20:27.44] spk_1:
So, you know, there’s nothing worse than being in your in a meeting with your Ceo, in your c suite and they’re asking you about updates. It’s on fundraising. On corporate support and in previous meetings, maybe you were very, very excited about something about about a potential funder coming on board, but they’ve gone kind of quiet, so you’ve got nothing else to report on that meeting. There’s just nothing worse than that. You know, you do the round robin of reporting and it comes to you, you’re like, do I have to talk about this again. So I think it’s very important right away that whenever you’re discussing expectations about a potential funder, especially a corporate funder, you keep your expectations based on facts and not feelings. And when I talk about in the book, I even give some sample, a re responses. So if you do have your Ceo or CFO asking about, well how do you how do you think that’s going to go? I mean, do you, I think we’re going to get that money instead of saying something that’s feelings based? Like, you know, I went in there, I had a great pitch, I think we really connected really well. They’d be stupid not to want to fund us. You know, that’s very feelings based language instead you want to focus on factual language. Now we have the pitch two weeks ago they said that they’re gonna need X amount of time. We do fit in their corporate social possibility and corporate philanthropic goals in terms of their tenants. Forgiving so based on that, you know, the probabilities might be better than not. So there’s a whole different feeling or feelings The bad word, there’s a, there’s a whole different vibe that you’re gonna get when you’re spending time talking about fact versus feelings and that especially comes up. You know, if you don’t get the funding or if if the funding tends to be elongated in terms of the decision and the ceo is getting a little, you know, impatient. Well, what’s going on, you said this was going so well what happened here? So instead of taking it personally and saying, I totally get what you’re saying, I’m just as, you know, flabbergasted as you have you are that they haven’t come back to us. I put a lot of work in that proposal, that’s the language you want to stay away from. You have to again focus going back to the points of, we did what they asked us to do and there’s a process and we have to go through that process. So that is a great way to set expectations within the building. The other area of setting expectation is within something I call corporate depth perception. I talk about this in my book, you have to realize that corporations are dealing with thousands of different things and no matter how important your funding is to you, it’s not as important to the corporation

[00:20:47.95] spk_0:
and

[00:20:48.32] spk_1:
you have to realize that, again, not taking it personally and there are going to be times where, you know, sometimes it’s just not a

[00:20:56.58] spk_0:
fit,

[00:21:33.20] spk_1:
there’s it’s just not a fit, no matter how hard you try to get somebody’s attention, it’s just not a fit, or maybe the timing is off. But having the empathy for lack of a better term to understand what corporate decision makers are going through, it’s gonna give you um it’s gonna give you a kind of a long way with somebody in the positive, you know, if you’re able to say to someone, I realize you’re literally looking at thousands maybe of proposals and, you know, I’m just one of those, I just want to thank you for even the review, we appreciate that. That’s music to a corporate decision makers ears because they usually don’t even hear anything like that. And just by reaching out and having that empathy that corporate duck perceptions, you may have just moved your proposal from the bottom all the way up, because people will always remember how you make them feel and that’s that’s so important.

[00:22:11.97] spk_0:
You made that you make that suggestion uh, you know, near near the end as you’re saying, rather than saying, thanks very much for your time. You know, be empathetic, uh, extend yourself a bit and maybe, and and it’s and it’s your it’s your last paragraph with them before you walk out the door. So why not leave them with something much bigger than, you know, everybody else is the ubiquitous. Thanks for your time.

[00:22:18.22] spk_1:
Exactly, yeah. Anyway, you can make yourself stand out to help help them connect with you, that you understand what they’re going through in this process that’s huge.

[00:22:31.17] spk_0:
Anything else on the on the first me? Yeah,

[00:22:34.71] spk_1:
so

[00:22:35.88] spk_0:
I’m

[00:23:08.27] spk_1:
a really big believer in the self fulfilling prophecy and we kind of hit that with paul, but just in general, I really try to coach my clients and people that are reading this book, you know, watch the language you’re using about yourself, you know, we’re probably not gonna get that. Well, you’ve already said it to yourself in your mind that you’re not going to get that. Also watch when you’re writing your proposals, if you’re if you’re not in a good frame of mind when you’re writing a proposal for money stop, I really think it it comes through in the language, so I

[00:23:31.46] spk_0:
think that’s true. I think that’s true when you’re writing, when you’re writing emails to whether it’s to a corporate funder or anybody else, if you’re in a pissy mood, you know, you’re just you’re gonna be more terse, you’re you’re you’re you’re the right language is not gonna flow great. You know, it’s it’s it’s Yeah, I think it it comes through even in one dimension on the screen. I agree, totally

[00:23:38.73] spk_1:
does. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, watch that self fulfilling prophecy, Watch the language you’re using about yourself and always remember that you are deserving of the funding and your organization is deserving of it and just remember to keep going back to that place if you’re feeling challenged when you’re not in a great frame of mind.

[00:24:31.95] spk_0:
That also applies terrifically too. When you’re preparing for your presentation, preparing to go in, you wanna, you wanna visualize yourself. I mean that when I, sometimes when I’m preparing for a training or, or Evan R or something, I’ll picture myself running through the finish line first, you know, like chest out, breaking the tape, breaking that, that tape at the finish line and you know, people are cheering and it’s uh, so we’re simpatico, I agree with you about visualizations, the value of a positive visualization

[00:24:54.12] spk_1:
and I give tips in my book about things to visualize the day of your presentation as well as before, if you’re able to actually get in the space where you’re going to present before the meeting, give yourself like a good half hour, it’s good to get into the space, get you in the right frame of mind and I’m a big fan of rehearsal, you know, I’m an, I’m an old theater kid, you know, I did a lot of theater in high school and in college and rehearsal is essential and you know, even when I was in public media and I was on the air, you know, pitching for dollars as they would say, trying to get new members, I would rehearse in my car on the way to doing a membership pitch and it works, so don’t be afraid to rehearse. I did.

[00:25:19.72] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:25:21.48] spk_1:
that’s

[00:25:33.06] spk_0:
a real, that’s a real art, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta keep people, you gotta keep keep motion, keep forward motion. Sometimes the calls are not coming in. Yeah, I don’t know if you’re doing, did you ever do the live? Like we can hear the, we can hear the ringing in the background

[00:25:38.91] spk_1:
live pledged? Absolutely, yeah, tough.

[00:25:42.33] spk_0:
When the calls are not coming,

[00:26:15.61] spk_1:
I’ll tell you, I’ve got to give credit is due. I worked for a gentleman who just retired out of public media a few years ago, his name was Kent geist, uh, he was a senior vice president of public media here in, in the Cleveland area. He was a master of the membership pitch and I learned so much from him, He was definitely a mentor for me in public media and I mean, it was an artwork, but the best part about it was he really cared, he really cared that the right audiences are getting access to this community resource in public media and it just really translated. So, uh, that’s, that’s, that’s the person who really got me through and really got me kinda through osmosis picking up on, you know, the right things to say at the right times

[00:26:52.37] spk_0:
when you can speak from the heart, you know, and, and channel that, but you know, then you gotta keep it going for 15, 20 minutes at a time. I mean that I’m not, I’m not minimizing it, but, you know, but when you can speak because you have a genuine emotional connection to the work, a passion for the work. When you can speak from your heart, that that that goes a long way,

[00:27:08.47] spk_1:
it’s so important because, and you’ll find a lot of people that work in public media are fans of public media, you know, um it’s that’s a big deal. We we know the content, we listen, we watch every day, so that definitely helps. And again, going back to what I say earlier, people remember how you make them feel. So we always go back to that um when we are in a pledge period and we know how to make people feel because we’re also listeners and viewers ourselves and we know the importance of the content.

[00:27:26.86] spk_0:
What about what about the 2nd? Me and Mimi Mo

[00:27:31.07] spk_1:
Yeah, so the

[00:27:31.74] spk_0:
second is

[00:27:56.89] spk_1:
messaging and um got a lot of good stuff in there about messaging, but probably the one that I’m spending a lot of time on and that has a lot of um a lot of questions I’m getting about is the power of brevity. I think if there’s one area that some fundraisers, whether it be written in proposals, presentations or just in one on one conversations, a bit too long winded. You’re given away way too much information up front when you’re just starting to want to court a corporate funder, as I also talk about in the book, you know, there’s, there’s kind of like a dating period to get to know a potential corporate funder right at first all you want in that first communication is enough of a connection that you want to get a meeting or another conversation. That’s it.

[00:28:24.62] spk_0:
You’re not

[00:29:59.37] spk_1:
trying to get the six figure or seven figure ask you’re not trying to, you know, take somebody to lunch right away. We just want to show that there’s a connection between what we have to offer as a non profit and the types of things that corporation likes to support and what’s the next thing we need to do? The next thing we need to do can be a phone call Expedia zoom, which is very popular now since the pandemic or it could be an in person meeting. And I also really highly recommend and I really challenge my clients and my readers. Try to keep your communications especially written email, communications to 100 and 50 words or less. That’s probably the hardest thing for most of my clients to do because if I go back and look at most of their emails that they’ve sent to try to engage corporate decision makers that went unanswered. They’re just way too long, Way too long. That’s exactly right and remember think about our world right now. A 15 2nd spots. No more than 30. I mean I see a 32nd ad, I’m like uh, you know, ping notifications. Five second pre rolls. We live in a world that demands and is used to brevity and communication, but at the same time we also want to get the information we need. So I try to coach my clients look in in being too long winded and giving up to information. You’re basically going against the tide of how we like to get information in our world right now. So it’s sometimes takes work in order to learn brevity. And and I do have some real practical ways to kind of learn brevity and to practice it every day if it’s something you struggle with in my book. But it is essential to be brief and when you are making that first connection, it’s just kind of three things who am I

[00:30:21.05] spk_0:
how do

[00:30:21.49] spk_1:
we connect? What is it you want us to connect about why we connect and what do you want next? And you should be able to do that within 100 and 50 words and the same thing with voicemail. You know, fewer and fewer people are using the phone. Um but those that still do be careful of those long winded voicemails. You really need to come up with something very succinct, rehearse it before you make the voicemail and be confident in your voice

[00:30:47.54] spk_0:
interesting. Rehearse your rehearse. Well rehearsed what you might say, but then rehearse to what you’re gonna say. If you get, if you get the voicemail,

[00:30:55.34] spk_1:
you

[00:31:03.98] spk_0:
also have a lot about research. You want us to research the company. You want us to research your contact at the company share some of your some of your research tips.

[00:31:25.28] spk_1:
Yeah. So um it is imperative that you research not only the company but the decision maker before you start contacting them. Even with that brief message we had talked about because there is so much competition right now. That wants the same money that you do. I was actually on an interview that I remember last year and I was talking about how the nonprofit world is, you know, competing for dollars and and the interviewer said to me, nonprofits compete I guess.

[00:31:38.24] spk_0:
Yeah. Yeah, I read that that was I was uh Yeah, it seems like an uninformed comment. Yes,

[00:31:59.04] spk_1:
I felt that way as well. But yes, they do compete whether they know it or not because a lot of times you don’t know the other funders you’re competing against for dollars, but I will say where, where you can really help yourself is in prep. So besides just obviously going to the website, you need to go even further. Look at the annual reports. Look at the reports around E S. G. As well as D. E. I. Diversity equity and inclusion. What specific things are they funding are they

[00:32:16.02] spk_0:
remind us what the DSG is. Everybody might not know the S. G.

[00:32:20.35] spk_1:
Yeah. So the E S. G. And I just blanked for a moment.

[00:32:24.91] spk_0:
Environmental, I got you covered.

[00:32:27.52] spk_1:
If

[00:32:28.35] spk_0:
I give you the first one, I bet you’ll get the second to

[00:32:31.05] spk_1:
sustainability and governance. Social

[00:32:34.02] spk_0:
usa social.

[00:33:34.84] spk_1:
Yes, so social. Environmental, sustainability, social and government. So thank you. Yeah, just caught me in the moment there. But what’s great is back in 2020 when we were all really focused on the pandemic, Fortune 500s were hiring chiefs of D. I. chiefs of sustainability um chiefs of their supply chain to make sure it was sustainable. Like, like crazy. And with that came different types of budgets, like they were all also given money to go out and find other folks to work with. Um And most people would attribute this to more the corporate philanthropic side, but we’re seeing these new budgets that opened up. So all of that being said, that is the case for you to take some extra time and to actually work on looking at the E. S. G. Reports and in many times the E. S. G. Reports and the D. E. I. Reports have contact information in there and you know, contact information is half the battle sometimes.

[00:33:38.61] spk_0:
Right?

[00:33:52.66] spk_1:
So I really implore you to go deep and look at those reports and when you’re talking to you then you can then reference some of that work, which a lot of fundraisers, sometimes they miss that step and then check their linkedin. I’m a big fan of linkedin

[00:33:56.34] spk_0:
and what that what that does if you’re if you’re talking about their own reports back to them proving that you did the research,

[00:35:20.97] spk_1:
that’s exactly right. And I love being able to use a prospects own words. I like to call it because their own words show that you’ve listened and they resonate with that. So being able to reference that whether it’s in written or verbal communique is definitely huge. So, um, and again, looking at your contacts linkedin page, I find a lot more contacts now are really putting a lot more about themselves on linkedin and in terms of their philanthropic interests. So let’s say you, you’re looking at someone that maybe on paper, the company might not vibe with you right away. But personally they really, you know, they’re involved in philanthropy per personally on another board, maybe that connects with your doing with what you’re doing. So you just never know. So really taking a holistic approach to research. Looking at the S. G. The D. E. I. Looking at linkedin looking at even facebook, I tell the story of a of a really hard to get vice president that I had one of my account executives at the time, get a meeting with, who was known for ghosting and who was also known to seem really, really excited to want to work with you and provide funding and then just kind of went away. So the story I tell is that I actually did a little research and found that we had a mutual interest in animal rescue, like down to the breed. And when I was in the meeting with my account director, we ended the meeting and I said, oh by the way, are you going to be at the doggy waddle? And she looked like what I didn’t even know about the doggy model. And you know, I mentioned that I saw we were in the same facebook

[00:35:45.80] spk_0:
group

[00:35:46.79] spk_1:
and so I made sure to see her at the doggy waddle and her hounds and my hounds and lo and behold, we got the letter of intent. So you just, you just never

[00:35:57.08] spk_0:
know research

[00:35:58.42] spk_1:
is imperative.

[00:37:25.93] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. I’m wishing you well in the heat of the fourth quarter. Uh from giving Tuesday coming up in a few weeks to your weekly production goals, um comparing last year to this year, week by week, hopefully not day by day. Uh well, all right, you don’t need me to recite for you the litany of pressures in the fourth quarter. What I do want to say is I’m thinking about you take a deep breath, take some time for yourself. Maybe you can take a lot but take some and use it wisely. You know what’s best for you in the heat of the fourth quarter. You gotta take care of yourself before you can take care of your business. So I’m thinking about you, I’m wishing you well, I hope you succeed. And to do that. I’m urging you to take whatever time you can take some time to care for yourself too. That is tony stick to, we’ve got boo koo but loads more time for your corporate funding with Lori Zoe’s crossed. You name a resource that I, I’m not familiar with. I’ve never heard of Rocket reach.

[00:37:30.56] spk_1:
O Rocket reach.

[00:37:32.03] spk_0:
Maybe it’s maybe it’s ubiquitous and I’m, I don’t know, I’m, I’m zombie doubt or something. But yeah, tell us about rocket reach.

[00:38:13.66] spk_1:
Rocket reaches a great way for you to find email addresses. Now, I know it has a lot of different other functions, but um, I love Rocket reach, I would say at least eight times out of 10 of the decision makers that I am researching, I will find a qualified email address in Rocket Reach. The other thing that’s great about Rocket reach if they have an email address associated with the, the professional, but they’re not confident about it, they will even list that they have a color coding system of green, yellow and red in terms of confidence of the email. A now there are free versions of Rocket Reach, I will tell you that I have a monthly subscription and I find it extremely helpful. Um, if you are actively engaging corporate decision makers, especially those that are very high up VP and high, higher up levels for National Fortune 500 Fortune 1005 hundred’s it’s a, it’s a phenomenal tool. I like it a lot

[00:38:43.29] spk_0:
rocket reach dot com. Um, okay. You also recommend setting google alerts,

[00:38:48.68] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:38:49.33] spk_0:
for companies, for people for, for sectors that you can make your connection with the folks you’re gonna be talking to flush that out for us.

[00:40:02.85] spk_1:
That’s exactly right. So let’s say you have a big meeting coming up with X Y Z corporation or you’re looking to really want to focus on someone in X Y Z corporation to start, you know, engaging for corporate support. I tell people that they could easily go to google and, and the easiest way to do this is literally go to google and type in setting up google alerts. It will basically walk you through how you can choose companies, topics, what have you and news about your news about your topics will automatically be emailed to you Now. I also like to remind people once you’re done, be sure you turn off your google alerts because you’re gonna get a lot of, you know, you’ll get a lot of them. But again, this is really something that you can use that’s for free, totally for free. You can do on google and you’d be surprised, you know, you, we all know, google search engine is pretty amazing. So you’re not only going to get news that’s news that you would see nationally, but you’re gonna get some of these little pieces that might be very hyperlocal or, or hyper industrial, that a decision maker would be pretty impressed that you would know about if you were referencing it in a meeting or in an email. So yeah, google alerts are great and easy to set up. Like I said, just go to google and type in setting up a google or and you’ll find it right away and how to do it.

[00:40:39.74] spk_0:
You also recommend using those while you’re in. If you’re in a waiting period, maybe you’ve sent the proposal, you sent your initial email no more than no more than 100 and 50 words and you’re maybe waiting or you got a reply that said, you know, we’ll get back to you or something. You know, you can you can use, oh, here’s here’s some interesting industry news that, you know, you might you might not have seen this article or something about, you know, your company was highlighted here. I thought this might interest you if you didn’t see it right? You can you can build a relationship with the person,

[00:40:58.47] spk_1:
I’ve

[00:40:59.33] spk_0:
heard that I’ve heard that companies, people actually, it’s actually people that work in companies, I’ve heard

[00:41:04.39] spk_1:
that

[00:41:05.22] spk_0:
programmers to that effect,

[00:41:34.05] spk_1:
they’re still around. So we’re always looking for additional touchpoints reasons to go back to people during the process. Right? So one of the best things that you can do is set up those google alerts. So you can send them news, maybe not only about something really interesting that’s happened within their company and you want to acknowledge it, but maybe something interesting that’s happened in their industry that you wanted to share, because maybe they haven’t seen it because they’re so busy, you know, and that is something that has worked really well for me as well as of my clients, because we are working with very, very busy people that get tons and tons of email. So to be able to share something regarding their industry that they might not have known about. Again, that that gives you a lot of points and shows that you have an interest with them of them beyond just, you know, getting the funding, that there’s a relationship you want to build,

[00:42:02.61] spk_0:
there’s a, there’s a certain book that you love that was recommended to you when you were in college.

[00:42:09.49] spk_1:
You

[00:42:13.53] spk_0:
why don’t you share the value of that, that book influence.

[00:42:36.44] spk_1:
So if you have been in fundraising or studied persuasion or communications, it’s, it’s very, very, um, plausible that, you know, the name, robert Sheldon E. And the book was actually initially called The Weapons of influence, but they kind of changed the title and now we have these six influence, you know, pillars that child any talks about now, it’s seven because he added one, um, as, as we, we got later into the years here, but I’m just fascinated by these persuasive techniques and, you know, I don’t want to go into each technique,

[00:42:56.15] spk_0:
right?

[00:44:43.16] spk_1:
Yeah. But if you want to, you know, search robert, Sheldon E and and the power of influence and just type in influence and you’ll see that he actually talks about, there are things that you can do in your communication, whether it be written or spoken, that can influence someone to the behaviors that you’re you’re hoping to achieve, but in a positive way. So, you know, some examples of one of my favorites that I use a lot would be something called social proof. So when I worked in public media, we saw social proof a lot. So if, for instance, if we had some local private schools that got on the air, or it’s on some of the stations to support the programming, we started to get phone calls from other private schools who wa wanted to be on the air because, you know, they want to keep up with the joneses, but also they think, well, wow, if these schools are supporting public media, maybe we should be doing that as well. So, you know, social proof is definitely a big one and um, reciprocation. So any time that, you know, you put yourself out there and you do something for somebody, you know, there’s, there’s a good possibility that the person you did something for will reciprocate, and, you know, there’s there’s a lot of different examples of that, but even in what we just discussed with the google alerts, you know, taking the time to send somebody an article about something going on in their industry. They may reciprocate something back, whether, you know, something about an article in your industry or reciprocate back with, oh, this is great, You know, let’s let’s let’s let’s meet again to talk about this proposal, let’s talk about the proposal again. So those are just, you know, too, that are top of mind with me right now, but they really are fascinating because if I think about what is kind of the backbone of why I’ve been successful and and some of the people that do what I do that are successful, they go back to the work of Child Dini and that there is some psychology to this besides just working hard, you know, um it is all in the positioning

[00:45:10.14] spk_0:
and I just want folks to know that child any is C I A L D I N I of course. And his lawyer said that the book is influenced the psychology of persuasion.

[00:45:24.56] spk_1:
Yes, Yes.

[00:45:27.14] spk_0:
I think we’re on the mo of me, mi mo

[00:45:30.87] spk_1:
the motion

[00:45:38.97] spk_0:
the motion. You talked a lot about rehearsing and um also in in motion you had sort of courting folks with with resources and ideas and but you know, I think I feel like you’ve talked about that, you know, according touchpoints touchpoints and in that respect, it’s very parallel to individual fundraising.

[00:45:54.42] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:46:07.67] spk_0:
we see something that’s going to be of interest to an individual donor who we’ve built a relationship with because we know that they are avid sailors. Perhaps, Laurie happens to be a very avid sailor, uh, and sailing instructor too. Is that, did I get that sailing instructor to

[00:46:11.69] spk_1:
know you might have been thinking of the rock climbing instructor that I worked

[00:46:15.72] spk_0:
with? Okay, not

[00:46:16.97] spk_1:
a sailor. You’re

[00:46:18.50] spk_0:
not a sailor? No. Okay. I

[00:46:21.09] spk_1:
do live by a lake though.

[00:46:39.59] spk_0:
Yeah, thank you. That’s very gracious of you to say thank you. It’s rock climbing. Rock climbing, maybe. Okay. I don’t know where, I don’t know how I perverted rock climbing into sailing, but so the takeaway there is, make sure that, you know, the person’s interests accurately don’t don’t misunderstand what they’re interested in. And send them an article about sailing when it’s actually it’s actually they worked with a rock climber and not even that there rock climbers themselves. So

[00:46:51.37] spk_1:
make sure you

[00:46:52.14] spk_0:
make sure you know what the hell you’re doing when you’re keeping in touch with people, You know what the hell you’re doing. Yeah. But, you know, regrettably, you’re suffering a lackluster host.

[00:47:06.18] spk_1:
It’s all good.

[00:47:38.04] spk_0:
Somehow perverted rock climbing into sailing. I don’t know, okay, sports, you seem to be very sports oriented work for sports. Yeah. That we don’t have we don’t have that in common. So maybe that’s why I got messed up because I got nervous when I saw the XS and OS on your book cover. And I thought she’s gonna make sports analogies and the XS and OS of course are for baseball’s I’m gonna get all confused, and I don’t know whether it’s hockey or it’s football or it’s it’s tennis or, you know, it’s a I got nervous, I think that’s what made me nervous was the sports, I was afraid. But you didn’t bring up sports? I did. So,

[00:47:43.73] spk_1:
No. So, you know, really, the introduction of my book talks about um when I was in college and I

[00:47:50.00] spk_0:
was professional

[00:47:51.14] spk_1:
sports organization,

[00:47:52.39] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:48:39.25] spk_1:
and um it kind of sets up how I come up with the Boardroom Playbook, which is the title of my book, and I do have a few sports references, but it’s nothing if you’re not a sports fan, you’ll be able to understand them. So, and and also, I just also like to talk about athletes in general. They do a lot of the things that I’m actually talking about in terms of mental preparation. You know, they do visualization, um they practice, they rehearse, um and they don’t just rehearse their craft of being an athlete, but they’re working with the pr people, they’re working with the operations people, it’s it’s an overall, you know, it’s a lot of work and I try to tell people in the boardroom Playbook that corporate support is a lot of work, there’s no hacks to it. And I and I know there’s a lot of pa popularity and saying, oh, watch my webinar for the four hacks to do this, and what I’m saying is if you’re doing this right, there is there are no hacks if you’re doing it right and developing the relationship, it takes time. But you’re developing relationships that are long term, and you’re developing a craft that will stay with you for years, no matter what happens with technology,

[00:49:02.48] spk_0:
brilliant, thank you for helping me recover from my sports. Yeah, no, the book is not S

[00:49:10.43] spk_1:
G I can’t believe I just

[00:49:18.14] spk_0:
uh Alright, that’s true. I did. Um No, I don’t. Long time listeners will know that. I don’t know, I don’t know much about sports. My favorite aspect of golf is that it’s a nice quiet sport. I appreciate that, I appreciate the quietness of golf. Uh

[00:49:33.63] spk_1:
So unless

[00:49:44.04] spk_0:
somebody then they’ll be screaming and they’ll be throwing. Of throwing, of devices, the paddles will get thrown. So, um yeah, the book is not based on sports. I don’t want to give folks the wrong impression. I understood the book perfectly,

[00:49:50.27] spk_1:
so leave

[00:50:08.33] spk_0:
it, leave it at that. So, so I guess we covered the memo, the motion motion. You talk about, you know, courting folks, knowing what the hell you’re doing. Uh rehearsing is part of your motion and how important that is. Um but then you have last minute tips, like 48 hour tips. And then and then right before and dressing and comfort items, you know, talk about, talk about some of your last minute tips right before the moment

[00:50:21.98] spk_1:
I do. So this kind of goes back

[00:50:24.35] spk_0:
to

[00:50:25.52] spk_1:
the athletes, you know, athletes have routines.

[00:50:29.01] spk_0:
You know, there

[00:51:26.63] spk_1:
are certain things, some of them will eat something before a game, some of them won’t, you know, everybody has a specific routine. So I provide tips of myself and other people I’ve worked with of successful routines before you go into a big presentation and I take you from like you said a couple days before too, you know, the day of but um in general, you want to find the things that work for you that make you feel comfortable and confident. So these are little things like make sure you, you know, you wear your favorite suit that day or you know, whatever your your favorite clothing is when you do a presentation, make sure your technology works. You know that that that’s a big thing to um make sure that if you’re doing paper handouts, make sure you’ve got all those handouts prepared and and you make sure you have enough, make sure you know, the number of people in the room who’s gonna be in the room, you know, find out who’s gonna who’s definitely gonna be in the room. I also have items that I suggest you bring with

[00:51:29.50] spk_0:
you to

[00:51:30.67] spk_1:
any in person presentation at least two bottles of water because you never know when you’re going to jump into a dry mouth situation that has happened to me thankfully I had plenty of water with me. Um also mints and cough drops,

[00:51:46.17] spk_0:
I’ve

[00:51:46.43] spk_1:
also been in situations where I start to have this coughing fit that’s never good. So you want to have a cough drop with you, you know, these are very, very practical tips um and then also making sure beforehand if you’re presenting with somebody else because a lot of times you’re, you know,

[00:52:03.14] spk_0:
you’re

[00:52:34.74] spk_1:
presenting with other people, make sure you know, your roles. So when you’re doing that rehearsal before your presentation, don’t just go into rehearsal and say okay bob, you’re gonna do this and I’m gonna do this and rehearsals over. No, you actually want to go through the presentation. You actually want to have people there in the room from your office, they can sit in and watch, provide feedback. I find when you do that. I know some people are are cringing about it, but it really helps. It gets the rust off, especially if you haven’t done a presentation in a while and it just, it just shows that you know what you’re doing and again, taking it back to athletes, they practice, they practice before, you know, if it’s football every sunday, you know, so those are just a few of the tips, there’s a ton of them in the book, but you know, really getting to know yourself in terms of making you comfortable in that room. Probably one of the most unique tips I give though is having some sort of comfort item with you. Something that if you look at just kind of makes you feel good.

[00:53:02.73] spk_0:
I

[00:53:50.70] spk_1:
talk about my one former account executive I worked with who had a water bottle with pictures of her kids on it which I thought was neat. It’s also a good conversation starter and I had somebody else. I I was managing a gentleman that was kind of in a slump per se um was doing a lot of activity but just the money wasn’t coming in and he decided to bring with him um a a watch that his father used to wear and his father was a former VP of sales and very successful and lo and behold he brought that in with him and from what I understand he still brings it with him to large pitches and he’ll say I’m just keeping track of the time when in actuality it just gives him a sense of comfort and calm. So those are just a just a few tips. And I do emphasize the water a lot though because sometimes if you’re in a situation where you forget something and I should have done this earlier with E. S. G. I could have just taken a sip of my water and a lot of times that shot of H. 20. Will just bring you back to where you need to

[00:54:06.77] spk_0:
be. So

[00:54:07.68] spk_1:
those are just a few tips as well for once you’re in that moment.

[00:54:11.95] spk_0:
Excellent. All right Mimi. Well you could do me me meow meow too because you have a mental message, motion and moment.

[00:54:31.27] spk_1:
Yeah. So in the book I talk about me mi mo gets you to the moment and to your point earlier, you know I try to make it easy off the tongue. The me me meow. You had any other, mm. Yes,

[00:54:32.00] spk_0:
I was right. We don’t want to make

[00:54:33.97] spk_1:
me

[00:54:34.71] spk_0:
me, me, me me meow meow. You know people say well I’m talking to an infant now.

[00:54:39.90] spk_1:
She’s

[00:54:41.51] spk_0:
she’s stuttering. She doesn’t she doesn’t even know her own business. So

[00:54:45.93] spk_1:
okay mi

[00:54:50.34] spk_0:
mi mo 123 in and out. Okay. Um anything else that you know, I’ve asked you a bunch of things? Anything that we haven’t we haven’t talked about that you want to leave the folks with?

[00:56:05.32] spk_1:
Yeah. So um a chapter I get asked about a lot too is called pumpkin spice proposals. And um I thought I would just mention about that pumpkin spice proposal to me is a proposal that just has too much unnecessary stuff in it. And you know sometimes you just need the coffee, you don’t need the pumpkin spice. Right? So I challenge people, look at your proposals. You know, is there the feedback I get a lot from corporate decision makers? Is there too much clip art in it. Are you using their logo over and over? You know I have one gentleman I worked with. that’s what the Fortune 500 he said, I don’t need, I know what my logo is. I know what my company does. You don’t have to put the about us in there. I I get it. Just tell me what it is you want and why us. Um I think good proposals are no more than five pages. Um use a good size font. I think in the book I reference like 11 or 12 point font, Ariel times, new roman calibri as possible. Don’t get too creative. And I know this is tough for people because there’s a lot of seminars out there about proposal templates and you know, there’s a lot of training around it. I just like to keep it simple and that seems to resonate, you know, with a lot of the Fortune five hundred’s that I’ve worked with. So I would like to leave people with, take a look at your proposals. And is there too much pumpkin spice and just not enough

[00:56:22.65] spk_0:
coffee, Mimi, momo, periwinkle zombies, pumpkin spice proposals

[00:56:27.58] spk_1:
all

[00:56:28.36] spk_0:
uh it’s all in the book. The book is uh the boardroom Playbook, You’ll find it at the growth owl dot com where you’ll also find Laurie. Thank

[00:56:39.81] spk_1:
you

[00:57:37.29] spk_0:
amazon two. Okay, amazon. And uh there’s a little site called amazon and then you could go to the growth owl dot com if you want to go there. Thank you very much Lori it’s a real pleasure next week thought leadership and content strategy. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for November 7, 2022: Align Your Money With Your Goals

 

Sarah OlivieriAlign Your Money With Your Goals

There’s a dimension to your budgeting you might be missing: Organizing your budget so you know what impact your money is achieving for you, and you know the costs connected to your goals. Sarah Olivieri returns to help you course correct. She’s the founder of PivotGround.

 

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Every nonprofit struggles with these issues. Big nonprofits hire experts. The other 95% listen to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Trusted experts and leading thinkers join me each week to tackle the tough issues. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio.
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[00:03:22.35] spk_0:
and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. We have a listener of the week Cheryl McCormick, she’s ceo of Athens Area Humane society in Athens Georgia. Cheryl is a longtime fan many, many year fan of non profit radio she blogged about the podcast once, putting it in her top five, that was years ago, she’s been listening a long time, she was in my plan giving accelerator class, the very first one um in fact she was the first person to sign up for the very first class and we finally met in uh in Atlanta Georgia just a couple of weeks ago and she was so gracious, she took her her afternoon off to meet with me and we spent hours getting to know each other even better, catching up learning more. It was just a it was a real pleasure to meet this uh non profit radio super fan for many, many years. So Cheryl McCormick, thank you, thanks for taking all that time to to see me, you’re our listener of the week also happy Halloween. Now that’s a week late uh I need an intern to blame because I didn’t realize that, I mean I knew Halloween was coming up, but when I was doing the show I just didn’t realize it was gonna be published on Halloween Day the 30 obviously 31st so um you know, I you’re stuck with a lackluster host what can I say I hope you enjoyed your Halloween I’ll leave it with that I’m doing the best I can without an intern to blame. Hope you enjoyed your Halloween and I’m glad you’re with me because I’d be thrown into our neuralgia if you inflamed me with the painful idea that you missed this week’s show, align your money with your goals, there’s a dimension to your budgeting. You might be missing organizing your budget. So you know what impact your money is achieving for you and you know, the costs connected to your goals. Sarah Olivieri returns to help you course correct. She’s the founder of pivot ground Antonis take two does this show sound better? We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a genuine pleasure to welcome back Sara Olivieri. She has over 18 years of nonprofit leadership experience. She was co founder of the Open Center for autism, Executive director of the helping Children of War Foundation and co author of lesson plan Ala carte integrated planning for students with special needs as the founder and heart behind pivot ground Sarah helps nonprofits become financially sustainable world changers. Her company is at pivot ground and at pivot ground dot com Sarah Welcome back to non profit radio Hey

[00:03:31.03] spk_1:
tony It’s so great to be here.

[00:03:42.02] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure to have you. Thank you very much and uh and thank you for sitting through that longer than usual intro to the show. I I had to shout out our listener of the week Cheryl and then I had to explain why I didn’t say happy Halloween next week last week. So thank you for sitting through that interesting through that. No

[00:03:53.15] spk_1:
problem.

[00:03:53.94] spk_0:
Now, you know I pronounced your name Olivieri,

[00:03:56.84] spk_1:
you got it. But

[00:03:57.78] spk_0:
do you just say Allah very,

[00:03:59.41] spk_1:
no, no Olivieri

[00:04:01.34] spk_0:
Oh

[00:04:09.56] spk_1:
yes, thank you. Just lean into the italian sound. People think I’m italian because I kind of have a little bit of that look but it’s actually from the jewish side of my family but you know, I’m an honorary italian with an italian last name.

[00:04:14.43] spk_0:
Absolutely. And you want to, you want to get every vowel sound in there. So thank you. Thank you for not doing olive very you’re

[00:04:20.88] spk_1:
welcome. Like

[00:04:21.86] spk_0:
O L I V E I know you got to get the Olivieri.

[00:04:26.96] spk_1:
Olivieri. Olivieri.

[00:05:11.81] spk_0:
Olivieri. Yeah, well the sarah kind of always wanted sarah that doesn’t sound italian sound not really, but I understand. All right. So you’ve got two great ones, uh, jewish and italian, I’m often confused for jewish people, people that I have a look that folks think is a jewish look. So I don’t mind it, we’re all suffering under our mothers. It’s all we all we all have the guilt from, from mothers so jewish or italian we share, we have that, we have that bond but let’s not, let’s not talk about oppressive mothering, let’s talk about organizing your budget, organizing you know what your money is doing for you so that you’re aligned with your goals. Let’s say high level, what could we be doing better?

[00:05:42.17] spk_1:
Yeah. Well, first of all, so many nonprofit leaders are not like money. People, they don’t have M. B. A. S. They’re not like and their budgets scare them. So if you’re listening now and you’re like budgets like, please, no, I want you to know that we can make budgeting fun because high level your budget is like your financial strategy, right? It’s a map that tells you how your money can work and how well it is working, Right? So if you like things like having more money next year than you have this year, and if you like things like having incredible financial data to tell these amazing stories about the impact you are making and the impact you could be

[00:06:08.14] spk_0:
making. If

[00:06:34.11] spk_1:
you like to have money to pay your staff and equitable, you know, fair market value so that they’re not overworked and run down and living in poverty themselves. A budget, not just any budget is your very, very best friend. Because it’s the thing that if you know how to arrange it, will unlock the answers to how you get most of those things. And unfortunately most people’s budgets are not telling them those answers right now. And so hopefully we’ll be able to demystify that a bit today.

[00:06:41.64] spk_0:
We absolutely will. Yes. We’re gonna we’re gonna achieve that. Hope. Alright. So, I should have called this budget is your friendly budget. Budget is your budget is fun and friendly.

[00:06:52.62] spk_1:
Yes. Right. Love your budget.

[00:07:13.31] spk_0:
Alright. Alright. Love your budget. Love your budget. I love how you were going to demystify and uh be upbeat about something that could be very uh dull if we’re not doing it right. So, but I can tell that you’re doing it right. You’re have manufacturers enthusiasm around budgeting. Okay. Um Where should we start? We need to start with vocabulary or is that

[00:07:17.29] spk_1:
like any bit of vocabulary just to make sure that nobody is kind of getting lost in the weeds because whenever we talk about budgets were starting to bring in a little bit of financial vocabulary and um I don’t want to need to be lost if we’re using that language or if you hear it. Right? So um

[00:07:36.26] spk_0:
Okay. Yes. Plus All

[00:07:37.47] spk_1:
right. We don’t want to be in

[00:07:39.17] spk_0:
it for you to be in jail when you say, you know net profit or something. Okay,

[00:07:59.21] spk_1:
that’s right. And you know what I want to tell everybody who’s ever nervous about budgeting vocabulary. Is that different people use it in different ways. So, my number one tip, when it comes to vocabulary actually what you write in your budget is def find what you mean in the budget because one’s person’s gross is not someone else’s gross. And these terms, you know, you’re like that’s gross. right? What’s net, right? It’s not the same for everybody. And you might find yourself in a disagreement about these terms. Um and you could both be right and both be wrong. So um I just encourage you to like really eliminate the jargon and just describe what you’re talking

[00:08:22.36] spk_0:
about, define like define it in a footnote or something like that,

[00:08:45.48] spk_1:
define it right in the line item, right? Just put it right in the line item. So um so first of all, most, a lot of the numbers in the budget are either money in numbers or money out numbers, Right? So they’re now we’ve eliminated all the dragon, right? Either it’s money coming into the bank or it’s money going out of the bank. And then we have another set of numbers which are called assets and that means assets is the amount of money that you have kind of stored away, right? That it was already put in and stayed in or things that are worth money, right? So if you have property that could be turned into money stocks, that could be turned into money, right? All those things are worth money. And so if it’s worth money or is money just sitting around that’s your assets

[00:09:12.77] spk_0:
back

[00:09:49.59] spk_1:
to the money in money out, right? Money in. We have some terms like revenue, gross revenue, net revenue. Um These are all ways of talking about our money coming in and usually money going out is a little easier because we talk about like x expenses typically, and there aren’t as many words that we throw around to describe expenses. Um And then the last kind of category that I’m just gonna call measures for today. These are the most important numbers that are usually missing from most budgets. These are the things like percentages in your budget that tell you how the money is working and that’s where the secret is. And luckily for you is, most of these numbers are less than 100. So smaller numbers are easy for our brains to like look at and think about. And so looking at percentages telling the story about how our money is working is really, really important and we can talk later about what some of those

[00:10:18.21] spk_0:
are. In fact, if the percentage Is equal more than 100, then we have a problem.

[00:10:20.48] spk_1:
Yes.

[00:10:22.66] spk_0:
Of our of our assets or our expenses are okay. All right. So do we need to distinguish between revenue and gross revenue? You mentioned those two.

[00:11:09.90] spk_1:
Yeah. So at the end of the day, so you’re always gonna look at all the money coming in in a budget. That’s usually what we call top line revenue, because usually at the top line of the budget. Right? So you want to be thinking about the total amount of money coming in and then you also want to be thinking about kind of breaking down where the money starts to go out and then how much is left over. So gross and net are terms that to describe how much is left over after certain kinds of expenses come out. So what I want to know is what’s my top line revenue and then after I’ve paid for my programs, um and especially like money that I wouldn’t have to spend if I didn’t have that program. So I want to know how much is left over after I paid my program expenses. And then I usually want to also know what’s left over if I not only paid my program expenses, but also paid my staffing programmatic expenses, like how much is left over after that, right in

[00:11:32.58] spk_0:
my right? Just staff program expenses.

[00:11:35.16] spk_1:
So all the program expenses and the staffing expenses of the program

[00:11:39.61] spk_0:
staffing, expensive program but not staffing of other other functions,

[00:11:43.46] spk_1:
not staffing of other functions.

[00:11:45.06] spk_0:
We’re not there yet. Okay.

[00:11:46.14] spk_1:
And then I get this number, some accountants call it contribution margin. A lot of people have never heard that, but basically it almost sounds like

[00:11:55.25] spk_0:
a contribution margin. Anybody says that I’m putting them in jargon jail,

[00:12:18.31] spk_1:
right? You’re like jargon jail. Right? So, but but what we’re talking about is how much money is left over after everything came in and you paid for all of your programs, how much money is then contributed to the general operating expenses, which you will never ever hear me call overhead. I call them operations. And the language we use in budgeting really matters. Right. And we all heard, but just in case somebody missed it. Right. Overhead is a good thing. And the reason is because overhead is operations and operations are critical to operating, right? No operations, no operating.

[00:12:38.67] spk_0:
It’s also investment in potentially future,

[00:12:40.28] spk_1:
essentially future

[00:12:41.49] spk_0:
work maybe you’re reserving for for a future ambition for a future purchase, maybe you’re reserving so these are all, you know? Yes, it’s it’s it’s it’s absolutely operational, but I also see as investment for the future

[00:12:57.23] spk_1:
and

[00:13:08.42] spk_0:
the and that’s essential your sustainability for God’s sake. So if people on your board are complaining that you have a reserve for something, you know, ask them. Well, don’t you reserve for future for future future recessions, don’t you reserve for future investments and expenditures in in new markets? So please sir, you know, be quiet

[00:13:38.17] spk_1:
Yes, you should have a reserve. And when you get to the very, very bottom, people sometimes call the bottom line at some point, you’re going to have a number that if you are a for profit business, you might label it profit profit margin margin. When we hear that word margin, I don’t want you to be scared. It just means how much is left after something else taken out right? That’s all margin is right. It means we had money in and we took some money out and then we wanted to know how much, how much pie was left. Right. Do we have one slice left, two slices left, you know that

[00:13:51.08] spk_0:
give an example of something margin, flush it out please.

[00:14:41.76] spk_1:
Sure. So, um, you’re, so we just talked about contribution margin, right? That’s how much money is left after we took out program expenses and program labor, right? So if we take out all of our expenses, program expenses, labor expenses, operating expenses, everything what’s left at the bottom is also our margin. Some people call that net, but some people put net somewhere else. That’s just the total amount of money that’s left over after all of our expenses. Now we need that money and I want to reframe the way we think about that bottom line because people get like really focused on that bottom line, obviously you don’t want to be leaking money every year, year after year. However, it is okay to have less than nothing left over one or two years. If you spent that money to invest in something that’s going to bring in more money in the future, right? Not everything pays off in one year, right?

[00:14:56.46] spk_0:
Staff, new staff, right,

[00:14:58.92] spk_1:
new staff or building a fundraising department. Right? So if you don’t have a fundraising department

[00:15:04.54] spk_0:
and write

[00:15:09.49] spk_1:
the people. So some people are making money, some people aren’t. So then at the very bottom, I want you to realize that, you know, kind of a rule of thumb I use is if the money left over, it needs to be at least equal to inflation, which on average is 3%. So if you don’t have 3% and what it was, what we have to define our terms, I’m always telling people define their terms. So this is where we get into those measures, right? So percentage is the amount of money that’s left over our margin, right at the very

[00:15:37.20] spk_0:
bottom.

[00:15:39.10] spk_1:
Um, and what percentage of that

[00:15:42.60] spk_0:
of

[00:15:42.90] spk_1:
the total revenue that came in? Right? So if total revenue came in was 100,000, right? We wanted and we have $10 left, what percentage, you know, is $10

[00:15:54.51] spk_0:
of, you

[00:16:09.72] spk_1:
know, 100 or 100,000 whatever. So, and you know what, you don’t have to know how to do the math because any spreadsheet will do it for you. And I have a template that we can give away where the formulas are already in there. So, um, So, but that way we, we want that bottom bottom number to always be at least 3%, is the new zero.

[00:18:35.77] spk_0:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. They sent their bi weekly e newsletter on message this week. And it had something that I think is interesting. It’s called three under the radar targets for your pr pitches and the three that they suggest our association publications trade and professional associations eager to hear about news regarding one of their members or latest advancements in the field, alumni publications and hometown newspapers. If your pitch is mostly about an individual, consider sending it to, uh, to uh, alma mater publications and, and hometown newspapers. And the third is e newsletters. They say you’ll likely have a few of these in your email inbox right now, like morning brew. Good, good, good. And the skim these folks published daily and offer the opportunity to get your news delivered to lots of loyal readers and they make the point that, you know, this is not the new york times or the Washington post or even the Chronicle of philanthropy. But you’ll get some, you get some coverage, you’ll get some exposure and you can use the, uh, use the content, repurpose it on, on your social channels. So linked to it, uh, that way also, and maybe on your blog as well. So it’s some coverage, right? I mean, it’s not the end all be all, but it’s three things that sort of are as they say under the radar and that is turned to communications. Clearly your story is their mission. Turn life into dot C O. Now back to align your money with your goals Folks in our high inflation period right now that we’re living in 2022, folks may ask, well, should it be higher now, should be eight or 9% or should it just be sticking with like 3-4 because that’s the average over over a long term and don’t have to worry about an annual fluctuation up or down. So

[00:19:01.58] spk_1:
I think you know you can go either way certainly if we’re gonna have high inflation for a while, I’d be wanting more money left over right? But overall I want you to be trying to not have zero. Right? You if you have so 3% is the new zero. That means you’re just treading water. You want to be or you know if we’re at 5% inflation, you just and you’re at 5% you’re just treading water so you really want to be Probably and it will vary pro organization, I would want to be at least 10 to 15%. So that means I now have money to invest in next year. Right? So if I want more money next year than this year, I have to increase my operations around how I raise

[00:19:21.90] spk_0:
money. Which

[00:19:48.08] spk_1:
means I have to put money into the money making machine so that it can make more money, right? Your fundraising function is a money making machine. And the fuel is money. You put money into the machine, you put a dollar in and you get a dollar 25 out or a dollar 50 out. Or maybe it’s even better. You get uh $2 out, right? But if you don’t feed the money making machine money so that there are people to run it. Um And materials and all the stuff you do to fundraise, you won’t have more money than next year.

[00:19:56.99] spk_0:
Alright, alright, now some folks are gonna say so I just have to get this little thing out so you want you want rather than treading water, you want us to be doing a strong breast stroke?

[00:20:06.74] spk_1:
Yes, right? Doesn’t that sound better? It

[00:20:10.33] spk_0:
just felt like extending the metaphor

[00:20:12.89] spk_1:
butterfly. If you feel like

[00:20:14.56] spk_0:
you could do the butterfly, that would be that would be outstanding. Now some folks will say well, but the the the only way to there are two ways to increase your margin at the end of the year. Either increase revenue through feeding the fundraising machine or cut expenses.

[00:20:33.11] spk_1:
But

[00:20:43.46] spk_0:
now if you start getting into cutting expenses, what do you, you know, are we just cutting paper clips or are we cutting staff? Which could be very detrimental, cutting back on properties where we have outreach, you know, that could be very detrimental. So

[00:20:48.99] spk_1:
just

[00:20:49.45] spk_0:
put words in your mouth. So

[00:21:14.27] spk_1:
No, no. So I I like to take all of my expenses and kind of mark them in my budget according to three categories. I like to be silly. I use three icons, I use a heart icon which means this expense is creating an impact. I use a money bag icon to say this expense is generating money, right? And then I use a picture of a toilet bowl to say this money, just goes out the door and it doesn’t make impact or money, right? And some things make impact and money and we want a lot of those, if you have an organization that all of your expenses are making impact and money are probably very, very healthy financially. So all the ones

[00:21:33.97] spk_0:
with, that’s

[00:21:38.31] spk_1:
right. Or you can put two icons in the one, you know, in the line. Now, if you start labeling the moneybag line items as your revenue generating expenses, if you want more money next year or the year after or tomorrow, you need to increase your revenue generating expenses. If you decrease your revenue generating expenses, what’s going to happen?

[00:22:02.90] spk_0:
I mean

[00:22:18.77] spk_1:
revenue, Right. So I think, and once those words are so powerful because watch somebody try to cut a revenue generating expense once it’s labeled like that, right? They’re not gonna do it now all of a sudden it makes perfect sense. And I, I saw this mistake happened at the beginning of the pandemic. I’ll never forget the first time I sent out an email to my list at the beginning of the pandemic, I got back all of these like auto responder emails of people who had were gone because they had been fired so many nonprofits cut their fundraising

[00:22:39.78] spk_0:
staff. Yeah,

[00:22:43.77] spk_1:
that was like, that’s like cutting off your own feet, right? You need to increase. And as true with many, many disasters, you know, it turned out the pandemic was actually quite a good time for fundraising. All of my clients did better financially, not worse. And they were investing in revenue generating expenses in a time when they were going to need more

[00:23:31.15] spk_0:
revenue. Yeah, it was a short time. It was a short term panic. Uh, and unfortunately there are organizations that and for profit as well, corporate as well that reacted panic wise, you know, knee jerk and um, and that I think in the, in the medium to long term that hurt all those, all those who did that. Um, yeah, that’s

[00:23:32.36] spk_1:
rough times. Well, let’s get back to fun things like budgets. So here’s a big tip when it comes to lay out, right?

[00:23:39.24] spk_0:
Just for fun friend. Remember that

[00:23:40.86] spk_1:
my fun friend.

[00:23:42.07] spk_0:
Budget a mere friend. This is your one of your fun friends. Okay. Yeah. Yes, We’re back to budget. All right.

[00:24:00.90] spk_1:
So maybe I’ll just a little P. S. A a little budget advocacy to take us into happy times is I want your budget to be for you, right? The I. R. S. Has a version of your numbers that they want to see. And if you we get grants, foundations may have a version of a budget that they want to see. But first and foremost, I want you to feel that your budget the way it’s laid out is a tool for you, the nonprofit leader, right? That’s what it’s there for. This isn’t just something we need to throw to other people and yeah, you can have somebody rewrite it. So it satisfies somebody else. But I want you to really love it as the tool for you and lay it out the way it starts to tell you a story.

[00:24:31.23] spk_0:
All right,

[00:24:33.10] spk_1:
That’s right. You love your budget?

[00:24:35.13] spk_0:
Yes. Budgets. Budgets are budgets are people too.

[00:25:54.62] spk_1:
That’s right. So one of the ways I like to get my budget telling a better story that I don’t see anybody doing it. So simple is I like to take all of my fundraising revenue and expenses because your fundraising function is kind of like a business inside a business. Right? And I like to move it to the very, very back autumn of my spreadsheet. So I have revenue that comes from programs at the top. And then I take out the expenses from the programs and then I take out the operating expenses and then I get the true cost without fundraising of my nonprofit. And it might very well may be negative. It kind of depends if it’s appropriate for your non profit to be generating funds from its services. I do by the way, count, um, restricted grants that our first specific program as program revenue. Right? Because if you didn’t have the program, you wouldn’t have that revenue. That’s how I kind of divide the line. And then, so I get this, this is the true cost. So my nonprofit is negative. 200,000 to run all of our programs. Right? So we now know now we have, our true fundraising goal are true fundraising goal is, You know, 200,000 plus three

[00:25:58.61] spk_0:
minimum.

[00:25:59.88] spk_1:
Right? And now, because have you ever been in front of a budget? I bet you’ve seen this tony where like, you know, you’ve seen various versions and they’re just kind of like monkeying with the fundraising numbers at the top. It’s like a game to make the bottom number go zero, right? Like it’s not necessarily based in reality, I’ve seen that happen on lots of

[00:26:17.54] spk_0:
boards,

[00:27:07.63] spk_1:
you know, budgets being presented to boards. So now we have the true, you know, fundraising goal and the true cost of running our nonprofit without fundraising. And then I have this little section where I have fundraising money in revenue, you could call it if you want, but we have the amount of fundraising money coming in is unrestricted money. And um, and the amount of money going out. Right? So what is our fund Raising staffing costs? What are, are you know, marketing expenses, communication expenses all around fundraising. And then I see how much is left over. Right? My fundraising margin, if you will. Right, this is so this is do I have $200,000 coming out to match my bottom line or let’s say if we have 200,000 at the bottom we want 300,000 out of fundraising. So now I know if it’s going to be enough, right? And what do I do if I want more, more fundraising money, I gotta, put

[00:27:15.66] spk_0:
the machine, you

[00:28:58.41] spk_1:
gotta feed the machine, you gotta put dollars in the machine. And then I also, there’s, this is where those measures come in and it’s harder to talk about these Over the radio. But, um, that to 300,000 out, I want to make sure that that’s a healthy percentage of how much I put into the machine, right? So I want to know is my machine working well, right? Do I put a dollar in and get a dollar out or do I put a dollar in and get 50 cents out? Now? The truth is, unfortunately, people measure this in different ways. So there isn’t like, you know, an industry norm that’s really well calculated for you to assess on, but certainly if you’re putting a dollar in and getting a dollar out, You’re not fundraising, right? That’s, that’s zero, that’s a total sum of zero. And, but what I really want you to watch then is year over year or even month over month. Um, is that, is that percentage increasing? Like, so maybe I put a dollar in last year and I got a dollar 50 out and then this year I put a dollar in and I got a dollar 75 out and then next year I put a dollar in and I got $2 out, right? So double your money is always pretty good. I like to benchmark against some other things like what’s the average return on investment, right? There’s another jargon term, right? Just means return is how much money comes out of the machine, Right? So your return is I put a dollar in and my return is $2 out. So I compare that to the stock market. You know, would we be better off just putting money in the stock market on average compared to our fundraising department? Can they beat the average? I’d say they should be able to beat the average otherwise just don’t have a fundraising department and invest in the stock market. Right? Um, um, so you can kind of benchmark around some other things, but really you want to be investing in and making a healthier and healthier money making machine and that percentage is how healthy you are.

[00:29:41.12] spk_0:
And, and if the, if the margin is not where you want it to be. I mean, there are other reasons to have fundraising outreach, building long term relationships with corporate funders, individual donors, ultimately, hopefully leading to planned gifts. So there are, there are reasons why, as you had said earlier in the, in the short term, your margin may be negative on fundraising. You’re, you’re working to turn that around as relationships grow, whether institutional or individual, uh, as maybe events grow. Hopefully you’re not too event depending if

[00:29:49.21] spk_1:
you measure those events, probably their margin is, you know, their percentage is probably much lower than your other activities

[00:29:56.82] spk_0:
gets hard. Events get hard to measure then you should be measuring the staff time that goes into the events

[00:30:02.00] spk_1:
and absolutely

[00:30:09.97] spk_0:
that’s where you know your bake sale type events are not not sustainable. Not certainly not going to sustain your nonprofit. Um

[00:30:15.28] spk_1:
Okay,

[00:30:15.64] spk_0:
so I just you know I just want to flush out a little bit when you said you know you may as well be in the stock market if you’re if you’re fundraising margin is zero but you’re building towards something.

[00:30:26.84] spk_1:
Yes, absolutely

[00:30:28.42] spk_0:
much much more robust than you’re you’re working with now in the in the immediate term.

[00:31:25.59] spk_1:
And probably you can make your fundraising department work way better than the stock market, especially in the long term. And that goes back to your budget being for you. It does not have to just be an annual budget. In fact I always encourage organizations to be looking at least three years into the future, right? Like real life doesn’t function on the calendar year, right? Like real life things develop over time and they don’t have to fit into that 12 month box. That’s for the I. R. S. Right. But your real budget should really consider like when is a reasonable expectation for us to be seeing that money coming back when we know it takes the you put the money in the machine. It’s not instantaneous. And some things like you know used to plan giving right? Plan giving has a really long time line, you put the money in the machine And it might take years. It might take 10 years, 20 years, but you could put a dollar in and get like $200,000 out, right? Like

[00:31:39.27] spk_0:
huge. Um Let I I want to get to connecting your you’re connecting your goals to you, to your budget. But I but I want to make sure is there anything else that we should talk about around, you know, organizing the budget and seeing the impact of your money before we get, you know, specifically two goals.

[00:33:02.42] spk_1:
Yeah, I think just that, you know, just like we talked about, right? That that percentage margin, right? That’s the the percentage of money that’s left over compared to how much came in is the number you can use over and over in your budget. That’s the number that tells you how well is this working? Right? So, if you want to know, so, you know, maybe you have three programs and you want to know, you know, how good is each program at making money, right? And they don’t all have to make money because we’re primarily trying to make an impact. But you can then take say how much money, you know, does this program being bring in and subtract all the program expenses including the people and then say what percentage of the money left over compared to the money that it brought in, Right? And then you can say, okay, out of these three programs Program A is great at making money. Program B is so so at making money And program de just, you know, eats money. It doesn’t bring in any money. It’s always in the negative. But that’s okay. And then like what we’re about to talk about measurement, but we might then say, well, pro program A is good at making money and it’s good at making an impact. So let’s do a lot more of Program A program B is so so at making money and you know what? It’s also so so at making an impact. Maybe we should consider getting rid of it, right? If it’s not really doing either. And program D. Maybe it’s gushing money, but it makes such a big impact. You’re like, this is totally worth it for the impact. And we can make up the difference with our fundraising.

[00:33:32.21] spk_0:
Why do you go A B. D.

[00:33:33.96] spk_1:
Oh, I don’t know. Abc I’m getting over from Covid. I may still have a little brain fog, right? You know, your

[00:33:41.17] spk_0:
abc

[00:33:42.38] spk_1:
numbers,

[00:33:43.27] spk_0:
your numbers person, not a

[00:33:45.43] spk_1:
person,

[00:33:46.92] spk_0:
not alphabet. The alphabet will work on work on the A. B. CS. And another in the next

[00:33:50.98] spk_1:
show. Right,

[00:33:53.03] spk_0:
okay, let’s connect all this to our goals.

[00:33:56.26] spk_1:
Yeah,

[00:33:57.54] spk_0:
it seems to me that’s something that you you seem to emphasize that folks are not not aligning the two, you’re budgeting with your costs with your goals.

[00:34:12.14] spk_1:
Yeah. So one is like, you know, if you can measure your your money and how well you’re making money, right? Where are you able to make money either in programs or through fundraising? You can line that up now, right? Do you want to expand a program? Right, So that’s a common goal, right? We want to expand program d my favorite, maybe program C right? Program.

[00:34:31.88] spk_0:
You can

[00:36:31.38] spk_1:
See that. So program, see we love program, see it’s helped 400 people this year, and we really want it to be helping more like 4000 people buy in the next three years, Right? So we want to expand that. So in order to expand that, we need to, you know, how much money are we gonna need to expand it? Right? And it always costs more to grow than to maintain, right? So for expanding, I’m always thinking extra money, extra money, not just the cost to run it. Um, And then we can say, okay, how do we, you know, is this gonna generate money as it goes to fund itself, its own expansion? Or do we need to simultaneously be boosting up? You know, improving the fundraising machine so that it can fund this expansion. So now you have kind of, you’ve connected the finances to the goal and you can start to make decisions like, okay, I don’t just need to write if you just said, oh, I’m gonna write a grant and pay for the expansion of this program. Well that always sends off red flags for me because I’m like that program, if it I need to know first, if it’s not gonna pay for itself 100% and its own growth, then I’m gonna get the grant, I’m gonna launch the program and then the grant’s gonna end and the program’s gonna be in trouble. Right? So I know that while the grant might be icing on the cake, I really need to invest in boosting up my fundraising machine, making it more more effective, efficient feeding it more money. I need to be putting money in there so that I can now expand and have another program. So every time I like to call a mission pie, right, there’s your programs and your money pie, that’s your money machine. So every time you want to make more mission pie, you probably also have to grow your money pie capabilities. And so a lot of people don’t do that. And then we get like huge programmatic operating costs and we don’t grow our fundraising capabilities simultaneously. So that’s one example,

[00:38:49.13] spk_0:
it’s time for Tony’s take Two I think this week’s show sounds better. Am I in both of your ears this week instead of only your left ear or both speakers. If you’re on your desktop instead of only your left speaker, Pretty sure that I am and I am sorry about the past many weeks in august I upgraded audacity, which is the program that I use for post production, Like adding intro and outro and these Tony Take 2s and sponsor messages and cheap red wine. Of course you gotta gotta add cheap red wine, right That all that all gets added at the end later on in post production so that I’m not interrupting what I hope is a valuable conversation with guests. Right? No interruptions. I had the stuff later and something changed in the new version. After I upgraded audacity. I knew what was wrong. I knew it didn’t sound right, but I couldn’t figure out what the problem was. Uh, and then finally I researched and I experimented and I did find the problem. So now the music is in both ears, The talk is in both ears and the problem is fixed and now things are back to normal. Uh, it had been quite annoying. I know to listen in one year but those days are over, we’re, we’re, we’re now in november and the technology, Well the technology has an advanced, the user has caught up with the technology that’s what’s happened. So that was annoying as sh it as I was listening to it and I was frustrated but the frustration is in the past brighter days now, starting in november. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for align your money with your goals with sarah olivier t another

[00:39:07.53] spk_1:
another is around. yeah. Around how we tell our donors and ourselves how good of an impact we make and whether or not it’s the best way to do it. Right? So this is where you’re in your budget and in the template I have, it’s fully laid out like this. You want to have kind of a a separate tab. Hold on. Let me start. Let’s

[00:39:10.98] spk_0:
make sure we get this out. Where can listeners find the template?

[00:39:14.85] spk_1:
We will let me see if I can tell you the link right now.

[00:39:20.19] spk_0:
Is that pivot ground

[00:39:21.63] spk_1:
pivot ground dot com. And I may have

[00:39:26.19] spk_0:
you just click resources or something like that

[00:39:38.29] spk_1:
if you click um free resources from the homepage. If you’re following along. Um, and there are a few places we can that you’ll have several resources.

[00:39:41.39] spk_0:
Okay, what’s the template called that? We

[00:39:44.59] spk_1:
template is the ultimate nonprofit budget,

[00:39:48.35] spk_0:
nonprofit budget. It’s at pivot ground dot com. And click on, click on free resources. Okay. You needed that. You need that little parenthetical. Ok? Please please continue. I want to make sure folks can find this.

[00:40:54.82] spk_1:
Okay, so let’s say, you know, let’s deal with you know, programs. See again, we’ll give it some more love. And we’ve started to measure its impact. Right? So, and this is tricky, right? There is not a direct correlation. Oftentimes, especially in human services measuring impact. You know, we’re kind of triangulating? It’s not like, oh, X number of people served well, how well did you serve them? Right. Was this like a life changing service or was this like you’re not homeless last night kind of service. Right. Um, so, but what, however way you can, can measure it and you can measure it in multiple ways, how many people you served in a day in a week, Right? Um, you can now then take those program costs and say, you know, divide, divide them by how many people you served and find out how, how much it costs to serve one person. And the math is all in the templates. I don’t want people to get like nervous about math, but there’s lots of examples. So, um, now we know

[00:40:57.65] spk_0:
maybe, uh, maybe a little uncomfortable with math, but they definitely have their alphabet down.

[00:41:02.51] spk_1:
That’s right. Which I clear I’m good with the math. Just not, not

[00:41:06.06] spk_0:
properly radio listeners, very savvy, very savvy group. We have, we have the abc, we’ve mastered that recently, but we’ve mastered

[00:41:14.38] spk_1:
it. Good for you. And I say,

[00:41:16.79] spk_0:
we, I’m including myself in this.

[00:41:18.65] spk_1:
That’s right. We’ve

[00:41:19.48] spk_0:
mastered the alphabet. We can, we can rely on that baseline.

[00:42:26.93] spk_1:
So let’s say, you know, it costs, you know, $500 to serve one person for one day. Now there’s a few things we can do with this, number one. We can tell a fundraising story. Like, hey, it costs $500 to serve one person for one day, how many people do you want to save? Right. Like, um, do you want to say one person half a person. Right. And we started actually just had this conversation with a client the other day. They help victims of domestic violence and the real costs of supporting somebody to leave their house. Often it’s women who are leaving with an average of two Children and leaving everything behind and now have a giant legal battle ahead of them as well as rebuilding their entire life from scratch. The cost to save a life of a victim of domestic abuse is very, very high. It’s in the many hundreds of thousands, Right? Um, so you can start to get a grip on what does the impact you’re trying to make cost? So, but besides telling a donor story, you can, and I really think you should start asking yourself, is there a way we can get the same result with spending less

[00:42:39.57] spk_0:
money,

[00:43:59.50] spk_1:
Right? Because if we can do that, then we can get that result more and more and more. That’s how we begin to scale. That’s how we begin to say, Okay, last year $100,000 could get this amazing result for 100 people this year. The same $100,000 because we’ve changed the way we have designed to get the same result now serves 100 and 50 people right? Isn’t it better to serve 100 and 50 50 then 100 as long as the result is just as good. I’m certainly not suggesting we like fun results. Um, just to save money. Um, that’s not what we’re talking about, but, but we really want to ask that question like, you know, and just like we compared to the stock market right? Like is this help we’re providing that cost this amount of money? What else could we do for that money? You know, does this really make sense? Is that a really good amount of help? And you know, there’s, um, I think they’re called give directly, they’re a nonprofit that just gives cash. Um, they serve poor communities I think around the world and they’re very good at measuring this kind of thing. And they’re always comparing, you know, if we’re trying to solve this problem, like, um, you know, starving Children in this community, Is it more effective to open the soup kitchen and start feeding the Children or is it more effective to just give their parents cash or give the kids cash? Right. And again and again, you know what they find is just giving people cash free and outright no restrictions solves the problem at just as well, if not better for less money than building a whole

[00:44:14.70] spk_0:
program. But

[00:44:16.03] spk_1:
if you don’t know those numbers, you’re not gonna have that answer. There may be an easier way. There may be a better way, but you’re not going to know that if you can’t start measuring this kind of thing,

[00:45:21.16] spk_0:
that’s also where investment in technology might be able to make a difference for you in terms of, you know, the way your scheduling, uh, the way you’re in taking, you know, maybe maybe your intake folks to use your client example of domestic violence victims. Uh, maybe your intake folks would be better served with tablets than paper or, or laptops and tablets or, you know, or, or phones than laptops. So, investment in technology may help, um, investment in processes or the designing processes. So that takes time. That’s, that’s a lot of introspection. That’s a lot of time because again, you know, you don’t wanna you don’t want to diminish the impact and you don’t want to treat your, your certainly your, your beneficiaries as anything less than people deserving respect. So I’m not saying hand them a tablet, but there may be process ways, technology ways, um, maybe different staff organization, but you know, it takes introspection to try to reduce, reduce friction, reduce costs and, and keep impact the same.

[00:47:29.35] spk_1:
And that’s where you then get all of your, um, you know, I like to kind of like your, your tactical, your, your tactics related to your goals. So the goal is, um, you know, so I break goals down into like what’s the outcome that we don’t have control over and then the kind of related goal that we do have control over. So if the outcome goal is we want to now see if we can serve 150 people instead of 100 without spending any more money. And then the thing that you do have control over. Well let’s test, let’s set a goal to test new technology. Let’s set a goal to test new processes. Let’s set a goal to work with a consultant to improve the way we do intake. Um and then let’s see if these things start to have the the the total impact that we are hoping for. Um I had that with a large client human service organizations like 45 different programs and they had no central intake process or process to kind of move people between their different programs. They were mental health organization and a lot of people needed to go from one service to another, like maybe first they needed addiction recovery and then they needed peer support and housing support and then they needed job job support, right? So they really need to be taking a journey, but they didn’t have a way to take people on a journey. It was just kind of a free for all the person had to be their own guide. And so we kind of really went through with a fine tooth comb. How do people come in, what service are they coming in for? And then how do we begin to take them on this journey? So that because the more people who go on a complete journey the bed, the result is right. That’s how we go from making somebody just not homeless last night to making a lifelong impact for someone who now is in stable consistent housing, has a job and has become self sufficient and is able to manage their mental health and whatever other issues on an ongoing basis.

[00:47:56.78] spk_0:
Um Let’s um let’s talk. We’ve we’ve you’ve identified some, but let’s let’s let’s identify some some of these important metrics. Like let’s kinda um I don’t mean summarize because we’re not necessarily finishing, but I’d like to put them all in sort of one place where people can say, well, these are important metrics for me versus you know, versus not so much more vanity or less important. Can we identify some of those?

[00:48:22.96] spk_1:
Yeah, I think, you know, all the metrics around,

[00:48:28.13] spk_0:
how

[00:49:28.86] spk_1:
good are we at, right? The metrics that answer, how good are we at? So for you, whatever question you wanna ask of your budget, right? The budget is like, you know the secret Jeannie, you want to ask it? How good are we at making money? How good are we at serving? You know, people, how you know, how efficient are we at it? So um to kind of summarize to give you the answers. The budgetary answers, where to find those answers really is. How good are we at making money while you can find that answer per program by taking the income and all the expenses out and then seeing the percentage that’s left over. Right? And the dollar amount, right? Having $100,000 left over. Maybe it’s good. Maybe it’s bad. Right? But if we look at percentages, then we can really compare year over year. So we may not know if it’s good just by looking at one year, but if it’s improving year over year, then we can say, oh, improvement is good. We know that that’s good. Right? Um, we can then also

[00:49:30.76] spk_0:
as a percentage of what what we’re spending on the program.

[00:49:34.05] spk_1:
Right? So the percentage

[00:49:35.81] spk_0:
percentage

[00:49:36.34] spk_1:
exactly. So the percentage that you’re spending of the total amount that’s coming

[00:49:40.77] spk_0:
in?

[00:49:41.84] spk_1:
That’s where we look at percentage. How good are we at fundraising? Right. You just look at the total fundraising income, subtract out the fundraising expenses and say what is left over, Right? So we can say how are we improving? Then we’re gonna look at that percentage year over year. We can look at that percentage and compare it to other things in the world that make money.

[00:50:02.68] spk_0:
And

[00:50:02.89] spk_1:
then we can also look at the total dollar amount. And answer the question of are we is our fundraising machine making enough money to cover our expenses?

[00:50:12.66] spk_0:
Right? Making enough

[00:50:13.87] spk_1:
right? Making enough So not how good is it? But is it making enough? That’s where we start to look at the total dollar amounts. Is it enough. Is it enough

[00:50:22.25] spk_0:
subsumed in what you just described is the often cited cost of raising a dollar?

[00:51:43.97] spk_1:
Yes. Yes. Now, you know the nonprofit space likes to use that amount and I think it’s helpful because it’s kind of very tangible, like, oh, you know, what is your cost to raise a dollar? But I like it less for two reasons compared to the percentage method because um, it’s hard to do the reverse math. So if I said like, hey, tony like if my cost to raise a dollar is 75 cents, How much money do I need to put in the money machine? If I want $250,000, Like it’s just not easy math, right? So, um, it starts to get easier if you look at percentages. Also, the for profit world doesn’t really use cost to raise a dollar, they use the percentage return on investment. And so if you want to, because there’s lots of other ways to make money. So if you want to compare how good your way of generating money is to another way of generating money. Like if you really are asking like, do we invest in our fundraising machine or do we invest in the stock market? Right. Um, that may be a real question at some point. And or not for all of your money, but for part of your money and um, you then, you know, need to have apples to apples, right? And so the percentage is that kind of apple that the for profit world uses to talk about, how good are we at making money. Um And so it’s easier to compare. Does that make

[00:52:03.21] spk_0:
sense? Also you gave me long enough to calculate that.

[00:52:05.84] spk_1:
Uh

[00:52:16.29] spk_0:
If it costs 75 cents to raise a dollar and we want $200,000, we would need to put $150,000 recorders. Um Okay. Other other metrics. This is where we are metrics. But

[00:52:20.38] spk_1:
yes, I think

[00:52:21.24] spk_0:
we should know. Yeah.

[00:53:51.20] spk_1:
So um so we covered how good are we at doing this? Is it enough? Right. And then when you get into per program, how much does it cost to make a unit of impact? Right. So one person and I recommend you maybe even kind of when I think about, you know, it’s hard to measure impact at nonprofits. But most recently I kind of like to break it into like levels right? Low level impact help somebody for a few days, medium level impact like made you know, a year long type of change and then high level impact like life changing and you could have multiple levels. And so you might want to kind of break your levels of impact into that. But you know, how much does it cost to make one unit of impact? That’s one metric, You know, and then is that good? Right. Is that, can we do better than that? Um and there that’s where we need to like compare the cost year over year. And we also need to look at um, metrics where we want to think about, are we able to scale this up? Are we able to grow this dramatically? So you mentioned bake sales earlier, bake sales are highly profitable typically. Right? Like people donate all the food, all the labor, you know, as long as your staff, you know, if it’s like a, you know, P. T. O. Type bake sale and you get to keep all the profit right? Cost is almost zero. profit is almost all that money that comes out. That’s your profit That’s the margin.

[00:53:53.00] spk_0:
If everybody’s a volunteer, sure

[00:54:40.50] spk_1:
if everyone’s a volunteer, but if you were to scale up a bake sale to the size of a county fair, not everybody can be a volunteer. You know, I have to have security and ticketing and a special location that can handle all those people all of a sudden our profit the money coming out of the machine comes way way, way, way, way, way down because bake sales are not scalable. You can’t grow it to a large amount. You can’t just say, you know, $1 in, gets me $2 out. Now I’m gonna put in $100,000 and get $200,000. No, no, not if you’re fundraising machine is a bake sale, your fundraising machine will break if you try to put, you know, 200,000 in. So you wanna be mindful as you look at, how good are we at Making money with our money machine you want? And this is the same for delivering an impact you want to be mindful of, would this work if we put 10 times as much in? Right. If we grow it 10 times as big, would it

[00:54:54.41] spk_0:
break or we,

[00:55:29.18] spk_1:
would it work? Right. Would we sink the ship? We break the machine? Would we overwhelm it? Or would it work? And you can ask the same question about your programs, right? You’re able to serve 100 people now? Well, what if 200 people showed up your door? What if 10,000 people showed up at your door? Could you, would you just, you know, 10 times as much or, you know, however many times as much of what you use to serve people? Right? You just scale up your machine, will it still work? Not always. Right. So, you wanna be mindful and you may see as you track your budget that how well something is working is getting worse and you’re like, but we’re doing more and more, why are we getting worse at making money? Let’s say. Um, and that’s because the thing your machine needs some tending to, because your machine is not designed, you know, to go that fast. It’s not designed to work at that level. And so that’s another thing we have to be mindful of,

[00:55:54.02] spk_0:
Okay, anything else that we haven’t talked about that You want folks to know about our, our new fun friend, our our budget,

[00:56:29.75] spk_1:
you know, I think just you know, in summary, right. The the answers of is this good, are we improving? Is it enough? It’s the same kind of calculation over and over again. And that’s why I want you. What I want you to take away is it’s not like we have to do a jillion different kinds of fancy things with our budget. It’s the same type of math and it’s the same type of questions. But those are very, very powerful questions. Is it enough? Is it getting better? Is it the best thing we could do Right? Those are things that your budget can tell you. And we’re basically using the same kind of formula is the same calculations again and again and

[00:56:45.77] spk_0:
again.

[00:56:47.12] spk_1:
So it’s it’s simple. Once you’ve done it a couple of times you’ll start to see, oh I can apply this here and I can apply this there and it becomes relatively easy.

[00:56:59.74] spk_0:
Sarah Olivieri, pivot ground uh company is at pivot ground and at pivot ground dot com you’ll find her template and other resources at pivot ground dot com. When you go to free resources, Sara, thank you very much. Terrific. I have a new fun friend.

[00:57:20.10] spk_1:
The the budget

[00:57:21.44] spk_0:
budget. Well, you’re you’re a long time fun friend?

[00:57:26.27] spk_1:
Yes,

[00:58:04.02] spk_0:
thank you again next week. Corporate funding with Lori’s Osk Roscoe. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c. O. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Steiner Brooklyn. Thank you for that. Affirmation Scotty. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.