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Nonprofit Radio for May 8, 2023: Quiet Quitting & Email Accessibility


Delaney MullennixQuiet Quitting

Let’s start with what it is. Because it’s not quitting a job. From our coverage of #23NTC, Delaney Mullennix explains the increasing phenomenon, how we got here, and what to do to prevent it. She’s executive director of NonprofitHub.



Coralie Meade RodriguezEmail Accessibility

Our #23NTC coverage continues as Coralie Meade Rodriguez, from Firefly Partners, shares strategies that enable the 26% of Americans living with a disability, to fully access your email messages.



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[00:01:56.18] spk_0:
Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio, big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. I’m traveling this week so I don’t have my good studio quality mic. So I may not sound as good as usual. That just means you can look forward to better sound next week. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with horrific elation if you gave me goose bumps because you missed this week’s show. Quiet, quitting. Let’s start with what it is because it’s not quitting a job from our coverage of 23 NTC Delaney Mullinix explains the increasing phenomenon, how we got here and what to do to prevent it. She’s executive director of nonprofit hub and email accessibility. Our 23 NTC coverage continues as Cora Lee Mead Rodriguez from Firefly Partners shares strategies that enable the 26% of Americans living with a disability to fully access your email messages Antonis take to it isn’t what it is. Redox were sponsored by donor box with intuitive fundraising software from donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Here is quiet quitting.

[00:02:15.22] spk_1:
Welcome back to tony-martignetti, non profit radio coverage of 23 N T C 2023 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. My guest now is Delaney Mullinix. She is executive director at nonprofit hub, Delaney. Welcome to nonprofit

[00:02:23.05] spk_2:
radio. Thank you so much. Just excited to be

[00:02:35.37] spk_1:
here. Pleasure to have you. I neglected to ask your pronouns. Did. is she the right pronoun for? Yes. Okay. I should have asked. I forgot to ask in advance, but I don’t want to perpetuate a mistake. All right. Your session topic is quiet. Quitting in the nonprofit sector. That’s correct. Alright. Let’s first make sure that everybody knows that quiet quitting does not mean quitting. Please define quiet quitting. So folks, my age and older know exactly what we’re talking about.

[00:02:54.46] spk_2:
That’s right. I’m impressed. How did you know that? Did you attend my session? Yes.

[00:02:57.82] spk_1:
Maybe, maybe it’s more pervasive. Oh, no, no, no. A lot of people think quite quitting is actually

[00:03:05.10] spk_2:

[00:03:06.46] spk_1:
It’s not only people my age, I’m a

[00:03:20.62] spk_2:
majority of the people did not know what it was. And I think that the assumption is that it is someone leaving a position like taking a leave from their, their organization or their job. But um

[00:03:21.76] spk_1:
in a way it’s taking a leave to leave, but you define it. I’m not trying to talk around

[00:03:27.65] spk_2:
it. No, that’s okay. That’s exactly right. And the words are misleading. Quiet, quitting. Like you, you can assume based on those words and how you know those words that it means someone’s leaving a position. It sounds

[00:03:37.58] spk_1:
like you just stop showing up for work.

[00:03:47.67] spk_2:
So if someone has heard the term quiet quitting and they see their employee like taking time off of work or they know they’re looking for other jobs or they think that they’re going to doctor’s appointment but they’re actually interview for another position. They say my employees quite quitting, but that’s actually not what it is. So it’s more of like the silent withdrawal, like taking an emotional and like engagement step back from your job and that could be for a lot of other reasons, like not doing more work than what you feel you’re getting paid for. It could just be like you’re placing a higher value on your time. Um It’s really meeting your job requirements and doing no more, no less

[00:04:14.73] spk_1:
bare minimum, volunteering for the organized the holiday party flying

[00:04:17.87] spk_2:
under the radar.

[00:04:18.69] spk_1:
You might not even show up at the holiday party. Right. Bare minimum. Exactly. Quiet. Quitting. Okay. Alright. I thought only older folks would not know what that everybody who attended your session didn’t know what they were.

[00:04:29.59] spk_2:
No, not very many know. How did the session go? Very good. Very good. Yeah, people had a lot of questions afterwards. I want to ask you

[00:04:42.24] spk_1:
some of the questions Yeah. Alright. So we’ll lead into the topic. Um, you believe that nonprofits have incubated? Quiet quitting. Yes.

[00:04:53.83] spk_2:
For decades. I don’t know that it’s just non profits but I think it has existed in the nonprofit sector, um, naturally for a lot of reasons. Um, so like nonprofit boards have been quiet quitting, you know, since before it was cool, since before it was a corporate buzzword, um, doing the bare minimum, doing the bare minimum and I wouldn’t even say they’re quiet quitting. I like struggle to say I struggle to see them even doing the bare minimum. Um but I need a new term

[00:05:12.10] spk_1:
but yes, we’re doing less than minimum but still showing up. Yes, maybe less than the bare minimum, like below par subpar performance but still a warm body. Some

[00:05:23.77] spk_2:
yes, medium volume quitting.

[00:05:26.63] spk_1:
Okay. Alright. Alright. So boards you want flesh that out a little bit.

[00:05:30.88] spk_2:
I mean, it might not be totally fair to compare a volunteer board member to like a paid staff member. But um I mean, we see this all the time like board members are just taking like that, that step back before their term is over E D s are sending emails into the abyss there having board meetings without quorum like board members aren’t showing up. I mean, this is all the definition of quitting.

[00:05:59.08] spk_1:
Okay. Are there examples of how nonprofits may have been? You said incubating, incubating this other examples? I

[00:06:03.09] spk_2:
think the other examples I can think of are just like a pretty mature leadership. Um And that, that is represented by a lot of different things. But, um for instance,

[00:06:25.63] spk_1:
it was just a very loud NTC noise, non profit radio perseveres. As long as the ceiling is not coming down. I don’t know, just listeners. I mean, we’re, you know, we’re on the exhibit floor at, at, at NTC. So there was just a loud noise in the

[00:06:26.64] spk_2:
background. Well, apparently there’s a red flag warning in Denver right now, which I didn’t know what that was and apparently it’s like high risk for high winds that start

[00:06:33.56] spk_1:
fires, high winds and not tornadoes. Fires.

[00:06:36.73] spk_2:
Yeah. Fires. It’s been hot. All

[00:06:38.66] spk_1:
right. Well, assuming we have smoke detectors throughout. Okay. Yeah, we’re trusting.

[00:06:43.68] spk_2:
I’m sure they’re prepared.

[00:06:44.77] spk_1:
This looks like a pretty fire. I don’t know about fireproof, but it looks like a pretty safe building. Okay. We’ll persevere, um, leadership.

[00:08:09.64] spk_2:
Yes. Yeah, I think that there happens to be a lot of premature leadership. And I think that’s because for a lot of reasons, but one people are typically not offering salaries to attract talent that is as skilled or as experienced as they need. Um, I’ve volunteered on a lot of committees and boards where they have an executive director stepped down and instead of doing a search, they kind of promote someone from either on the board or from a committee to step into that leadership position. But it’s not necessarily that they have experience leading teams. Um And so there’s a lack of um things that happened, like people aren’t getting reviews like executive directors go years without ever receiving a performance review. And that’s like, that’s kind of, that’s almost the norm and it shouldn’t be. Um but other things just like failing to know how to inspire your team. Um And I think that’s sad because we are the non profit sector. Um A big part of my presentation was based on Devon Sylvan Eos Talk at cause Camp, which is the conference at nonprofit hub puts on every year. And he was talking about finding someone’s purpose point. And so questions that employers should be asking now compared to in the past was um how am I helping you to fulfill your personal purpose? And then employees are asking, how am I fulfilling my personal purpose by volunteering my time to your organization? And that’s kind of missing, I think in leadership. Um And I think leaders still assume that people are looking for money or a flexible work environment. And yes, these things are needed. But I think if you really want to attract someone to your non profit, you need to be able to do those things.

[00:08:53.90] spk_1:
I was also and that kind of leads to something I was wondering about. If you have insight into this more than I do, you’re talking about quite quitting um accepting mediocre performance from your teams or from individuals as, as um as, as okay, you know, like maybe mediocre performance gets rated high because yeah, and well, you know, we have a lower salary range than you would get elsewhere. I don’t expect my expectations are lower for you, which none of which is acceptable. I’m not advocating this at all. But you think that’s out there to like accommodating mediocre performance?

[00:09:05.09] spk_2:
Wow. Like, like allowing mediocre performance because of the total compensation

[00:09:09.15] spk_1:
to perpetuate. Yeah, leadership’s expectations are lower.

[00:10:02.00] spk_2:
I’ve never thought about it that way, but I 100% could see that being true. Um Yeah. And I think sometimes I even like, I can’t say that I feel super proud about how much my staff are making. I would love if they were making more. And I think I’ve had that conscious thought, like, how much can I really ask of them? Like, if I was in their position, like I might not want to go above and beyond. Um And I’ve, I’ve been a quiet Twitter before. I worked at an organization where it was like you were up for raises, you were up for your performance review. They were like kind of hyping you up that you were going to take on a higher level of leadership and then you get like pennies, right for performance. Like I get like a 25 cent raise, but I’m taking on managing another person. I’m taking an additional job responsibilities my job title has changed and that’s just that’s when you start saying if, if my employer isn’t taking care of me and they’re not like stepping up to the plate, then I’m stepping back. What’s the point?

[00:10:08.07] spk_1:
So why should I bother? I’ll just do what it takes. Alright, interesting. Alright, so I may be something for you to think about that. Yeah, accommodating accepting mediocre performance as the norm.

[00:10:21.30] spk_2:
That’s a great point

[00:10:25.70] spk_1:
And I think we do that sometimes and it’s not right. You know, I’m here. I am preaching to an executive director, but you need to do what you can to get those salaries to where they, where you think your folks ought to be paid and that requires a revenue plan which may or may not be fundraising.

[00:10:45.01] spk_2:
But yeah. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. One of the questions that I think is interesting is when I laugh because prior to my presentation, I asked several people this question I said, is it okay to require your employees to go above and beyond and prior to coming here, everyone said, yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s totally fine. Like I would expect that. And then everyone in the room yesterday though said no and I said you guys are right, like, absolutely no, you can’t require your staff to go above and beyond their job expectations. But there are ways that you can maybe inspire them to do that.

[00:11:14.95] spk_1:
Right? And a lot of that I think is team building to, you know, maybe a lot of, I don’t know, maybe some quiet quitting comes from uh a poor team cultures, you know, not, not, not cohesive teams. You know, if you don’t, you don’t feel a part of something, why would you contribute more to it than you

[00:13:21.24] spk_2:
need to? Yeah. And that’s the whole thing like is my, does my job have a purpose here? Um Like, what am I really doing for this, this company? Um There’s also a lot of research on why quiet quitting has happened. And team culture is a big part of that, but there’s a lot of new research on matching personalities to the position. Um I guess 64% of Americans are poorly matched to their job based on their personality and um like, coincidentally like gallop to the poll on how many Americans are quite quitting. It’s 50%. Um And so there’s a lot of research right now based on um like using personality quizzes and like your interview process or even like your job application. And even if you don’t do that, what I like, encourage the audience to do is at least know the personality that you know, is going to succeed in this job. Like, even if you’re not figuring out the personality of the person, at least have that conscious, like I’m aware of what I’m looking for. Um Because I think that’s a big deal like we had, I had an experience one time where one of nonprofit helps core values is uh unabashedly ambitious. And that’s like one of my favorite ones and we had a staff member quit and I was doing her exit interview and we were trying to figure out why she did because it was kind of surprising to us. And she was like, Delaney, I love working with you. You’re a great manager. Like I have had so much fun. I learned so much underneath you guys. Leadership like nonprofit has a great mission. I absolutely adore it. Um But I see you and Katie, like the previous executive director, just go, go, go all day long, like so fast paced, like tackling all these new projects, like doing all of these new things all the time. You, you live rich lives out of work, like you are volunteering all the time, you’re constantly busy. Like it’s just she’s like, it’s not me. She’s like, I’m not thriving in this environment and that was a personality mismatch, I think.

[00:13:36.94] spk_1:
Huh? Why did she felt that she needed to be a high achiever like you and have that high energy that you and your predecessor had had? Yeah. Why? But why would she, I mean, if she, if she’s a contributing member of the team, you were surprised. It’s not like somebody you were looking to, you were not disappointed to have leave. Why did she feel that she needed to measure up to what you do,

[00:15:00.01] spk_2:
I don’t know that it’s, that she felt she needed to measure up. I think that she was maybe doing that or working at a pace that was burning her out. Um And I think that sometimes if you are even in an environment, like there’s an article from nonprofit hr that um describes five dysfunctional leaders and non profits. And one of them is like the workaholic and I think what her perception of Katie and I was maybe that we were workaholics because we were like putting in overtime. But, but like Katie and I just loved like our job. Um And yeah, like, maybe at times it wasn’t healthy, like we probably did burn ourselves out sometimes. Like, I’m not gonna lie and say that I’ve never burn out by working at this company. Um But I think for her when you’re in that environment, everything feels like a crisis. Um And you kind of like instill this sense of like panic if you’re working at that pace and it’s not natural for someone else. And to that point, like I’ve had like, I’m actually an introvert, but I can turn into an extrovert very easily. And I’ve learned how to do that very well. But like, I need my space. Like, for instance, like this morning, I just took my time and I didn’t come out and do any networking prior to this. And like, I might go back and take some intern and breaks but that’s because I know that in order to be an extrovert, I need to like refresh and renew. Thank you for doing

[00:15:05.81] spk_1:
that. And thank you also for being self aware. You needed to do that to like bring your best to nonprofit radio. So thank you. Thank you for that. Thank

[00:15:15.07] spk_2:
you. And I love that the staff member was self aware, like she knew that it wasn’t like working for her and eventually her performance probably would have dwindled right as she was continuing to put herself in this

[00:15:25.04] spk_1:
environment. But wouldn’t you have rather she had talked to you instead of just left because you could have reassured her that her performance is very good. You know, you don’t need to, you don’t need, you could have reassured her, she didn’t need to measure up to what, what you do. But, you know, the way she’s working now and maybe even just a little less would still have been a very good employee. You would rather, I think I’m putting words in your mouth, but would you rather have had a real heart to heart before she

[00:17:22.00] spk_2:
resigned? And at that point, we actually had told her several times that her, her level of calmness and the way that she was so intensely introverted, she actually added a ton of value into conversations because she was always seeing a different angle and what we had been seeing or she would ask questions that we might have not been going slow enough to address or like, you know, preemptively try to avoid problems in the future. Um And so she was great at that, like, we adored that aspect of her and it was really valuable to our team. Um But to another point, I think some people are ready to challenge themselves and some people aren’t. Um And an example that I can think of is when Katie left, um I had to take over hosting the nonprofit radio podcast and I did not want to, I did not ever want to present. I never wanted to host anything. Like I’m more of like a background person like the integrator, not like the visionary. Um And I can do it again, like I can turn myself on, but that, that level of energy and that type of activity is more draining to me so I can do it in smaller quantities. Um And you just have to be aware of that. And so I think when my whole point is that when someone ever approached me to be on stage or present or talk to someone that needed an interview for like media or anything like that, I my my whole body would immediately reject that, right? Like literally my physical body would instantly respond. No, I’m not going to do it. I’ll find someone else for you. I’ll be the coordinator. Like, who are you trying to talk to? Like I’m not the one you want to talk to, but I’ll figure it out. Right. Even though I’m, like, highly capable of doing that. Um, but, like, naturally my body rejects it and I think that some people can fight their body’s natural rejection of something and, but again, it’s requiring more energy of them and I think that’s a big part of burnout. Um, so if she’s constantly pushing herself, it’s not a natural part of how she operates, it’s going to lead to her burning out

[00:18:11.81] spk_1:
what ended up happening with nonprofit Hub podcast. It’s going great. It is. You’re doing it. Yes. Alright. So we’ve talked around it like half a dozen times. Why don’t you explain the work of nonprofit hub? Just full disclosure. I did a webinar for you. You said off my three months before you started, I did a planned giving webinar um for, for nonprofit but describe the work of nonprofit

[00:20:08.06] spk_2:
hub. Yeah, of course. So non profit is a five oh one C three. We consider ourselves an educational collective and a majority of that is, is digital and online um as well as being 100% free for nonprofit professionals. Um I actually had the pleasure to kind of revamp like our missionary vision and our values um when I started as executive director under six months ago. Um but our, our vision is to create a thriving nonprofit sector, founded on nonprofit excellence. And I don’t know if you’ve heard the term business excellence before. That’s like a much more common, I think um thing that businesses are striving for especially small businesses are like entrepreneurs and there’s like five pillars to business excellence. And so I kind of looked at that and I said, what are the five pillars of nonprofit excellence? Because they are a little bit different or at least you have to say them a little bit differently. Um And then we do that by creating a connected ecosystem of people, resources and learning. So we um we provide educational experiences in content almost every day of the week. Um Monday, we provide a downloadable guide, Tuesday. We do our newsletter Wednesday. We always do a live webinar which you are on with us. Um Thursday, we do a blog article on Friday, we published a podcast episode. Um And so we’re just constantly working with people in the sector. It’s not always what we know, like we’re not the thought leader here. Um But more again, that connected ecosystem and like, I can’t tell you like how many resources are available on nonprofit hub, if you have any type of non profit management, if there’s like a pain point that you’re dealing with, like you need to learn how to even the simplest things, right? Like in the whole point of nonprofit hub is that it’s so tactical and easily digestible that you’re supposed to be able to look at like an article and read the paragraph that you need and then move on with your day, right? Like I don’t want you to study, I don’t want you to be in a course for like five hours. Although we do have courses available for you. Like I know that as an executive director, like you’re searching something on Google every day. Um and like you just need to find the answer and move on, right? Like I need a template, I need a downloadable checklist. Like I need to know what I’m not missing and then you need to move on. So that that’s like kind of like our passion. Okay,

[00:20:19.16] spk_1:
profit profit dot org dot org.

[00:20:22.14] spk_2:
And how many staff we have five staff

[00:20:25.04] spk_1:
distributed over the country?

[00:20:36.95] spk_2:
Yes. Yes. So I’m from West Michigan. I have a team member in Ohio, Alabama, my Obama girl. Um and then I have a gentleman who kind of splits his time between New Jersey, Chicago and Atlanta. Alright. Five. Alright.

[00:20:41.27] spk_1:
Non profit hub dot org. For for the hub, the hub of

[00:21:47.90] spk_0:
resources. It’s time for a break. Stop the drop with donor box, the online donation platform. How many probable donors drop off before they finish making the donation on your website? You can stop the drop and break that cycle with donor boxes. Ultimate donation form added to your website in minutes. Literally when you stop the drop, probable donors become donors four times faster. Checkout easy payment processing, no setup fees, no mentally fees. No contract and you’ll be joining over 40,000 U S nonprofits and over 50,000 throughout the world and the whole earth 50,000 donor box helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Now back to Quiet Quitting with Delaney Mullinix, you coined something in

[00:21:48.92] spk_1:
your like learning objectives. Quiet firing. What is this?

[00:22:15.01] spk_2:
So if we were to define quiet firing in the same way that we define quiet quitting, it’s not the intentional act of trying to push someone out of their job or the organization. Quiet firing is again, kind of those consequences of premature leadership, I think, but also like a burnout leader or a leader who themselves are quiet quitting. Um So this is like a very passive management style. So not providing their reviews, not engaging with your staff members, not providing affirmation is so

[00:22:23.68] spk_1:
toxic. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Are you seeing a lot of quiet firing? You see you see examples or is it trending?

[00:23:01.29] spk_2:
I think what happens is that I think, I think I’ve seen more of like the intentional trying to push someone out than I have seen quiet firing. Um But I think when you see that when you see the behavior of quiet quitting at the board level, um the executive director is probably leaning towards like a quiet quitting behavior. Um If they’re not having a board that’s they have a board that’s quiet firing them. Um And then it just trickles trickles down

[00:23:04.38] spk_1:
from the board. Quiet firing to the CEO Quiet firing the employees, quiet

[00:23:11.39] spk_2:
quitting and you feel a lot less guilt, right? Like doing that when you see your leaders doing it. Yeah.

[00:23:17.95] spk_1:
Okay. Uh All right. So what should we be thinking about? What should we be conscious of, to what? Well, I think we’ve talked about what it looks like, identify the symptoms of quiet quitting. What does, what does the CEO executive director do in the face of this? Maybe it’s just one person, maybe it’s hopefully it’s not throughout your teams. You see a quiet quitter, you suspect quiet quitter. What does the CEO

[00:23:47.12] spk_2:
do? I think there are a couple of things and a lot of my recommendations um that

[00:23:51.30] spk_1:
other supervisors, sorry, I’m trying to think of all our listeners, supervisor of the person doesn’t have to be the

[00:25:23.86] spk_2:
CEO. Yeah, I, a lot of my recommendations I think try to prevent the quiet quitting from happening. Um But there’s also a lot of conversation around. Um and we can kind of tell that the quiet quitting phenomenon isn’t necessarily all negative. Um Like there’s a shift in the power dynamic between the employer, employee and employee and employer. Um like employees are now like valuing their time. There’s a healthier work life balance. Um People are actually intermittently quiet quitting to avoid burnout and wouldn’t the employer want you to do that? Um Like burnout is so toxic, especially when it’s in leadership. Um And So it’s not necessarily a good or bad thing like it’s going to exist, I think forever and it’s been happening in generations well before the workforce right now. Um And there’s lots of evidence on that as well. Like if you look at it, if you look at the U S employee engagement trend, um compared to the rapid shift and generations in the workforce, the engagement has been exactly the same, the same level of employees are engaged since 2000 as they are in 2022. In the same level of employees are actively disengaged in the two thousands as they are now in 2023. So that hasn’t changed at all regardless of how much millennials have now skyrocketed in 2022. They’ll be in less than two years will be 75% of the entire workforce and the second biggest generation is going to be Gen Z. Um But again that, that engagement isn’t actually changing. So like quite quitting wasn’t like a generational thing. Um It’s always been happening,

[00:25:31.76] spk_1:
we’ve identified it, we put a label on it. Alright, so, alright, so uh something of a silver lining, it’s not always

[00:26:10.96] spk_2:
100%. Yeah, this is like the silver lining is that like we’re going to right size jobs. Um People are gonna be in the right seat, there’s going to be a higher level of happiness and engagement like at the end of the day, if we, if we address it in the right way. Um And I think, yeah, again, like the things that I recommend are, I feel like almost basic like hr practices, but again, like leaders aren’t always equipped to have that skill set, like they don’t know, best practices of hr or how to lead and inspire team, like their premature leaders, like they need to learn these things. Um And like, I mean, all the way from like the on boarding experience of your employee to like your job description and your expectations. Um and again, like trying to match personality to the position. Like these are all things that you can do to try to make sure that the staff that you’re putting into a position is going to be engaged and happy. All you

[00:26:52.81] spk_1:
can do is minimize the likelihood. What about, what about going back to my original question? If you do think you see it, how do you engage the employee with the understanding that it’s not always negative, the person might be engaging in just some self care that they feel that they need? But as the person’s supervisor, you’re seeing less engagement, uh maybe poor performance for some. How do you as the supervisor engage with the

[00:27:34.77] spk_2:
employee? Yeah, I think when I see people kind of um like being asleep at the wheel, I guess if you will, like, you’re kind of starting to see more mistakes in their work. You’re like, what is going on? Like, why does this keep happening? Um, I think it is really important to just have like a very open conversation. Um, and I guess it depends on your comfort level doing that, but I typically will, will address it from like a very professional standpoint. Right? Like you’re not like you have to kind of sandwich it in a way that doesn’t sound like to, you don’t want to like, violate anyone’s privacy. You don’t want to make them feel bad in any way. That’s not the point. The point is to help them succeed. But from a factual basis, yes, but from a factual basis, I’ve seen

[00:27:45.84] spk_1:
your performance. Yes. Declining. Here’s two examples of what I’ve seen in the past six weeks.

[00:29:17.22] spk_2:
And I love how um someone once said to me, one of my, like first, one of the first people who like I loved as, as like a business professional. He said, if you’re addressing a problem with someone, you need to frame it as if you continue to do A B and C, then like, these are the consequences type of a thing. So you’re kind of saying like this is the facts, this is what I’m seeing. And actually I think he starts it as maybe I feel that something is going on because I see A B and C and these are the consequences if A B and C continue to happen and then that employee has to take ownership of saying, okay, I don’t want these consequences to happen. And like, let me address like how you’re feeling and what’s actually happening. And I think that actually works, like I’ve certainly tried it before. Um, and you’re taking a very unemotional approach to the situation. Um But it’s still kind of getting to the underlying root cause of that employee’s behavior and performance. Um And almost always the employees say, you know, this has been going on. Um I’ve had employees come out during performance improvement plans and say like this is what I’ve been dealing with for a while and I recognize the issues. Um And like this is valuable to, to have this performance improvement plan because this is something I can focus on. Like these are my goals to focus on. Um versus like everything else in their minds that’s probably like taking their brain space. That’s

[00:29:22.35] spk_1:
a great outcome from a, from a meeting or a couple of meetings

[00:29:44.25] spk_2:
around this. But I think some questions to that, that I’m not sure I am ready to ask my employees but um to the whole like the purpose point thing again, like the question is, how am I helping you fulfill your personal purpose? Um Literally is a question you could ask for beta. All right,

[00:29:45.72] spk_1:
let’s turn to your session. You said you had some interesting questions came out of the session. Like what, what stays with you?

[00:29:59.58] spk_2:
Um Some people were curious. Um, I had a woman who seemed like, pretty frustrated that it was neither a good or bad thing. I didn’t know what to tell her. It just is what it is, but you can mitigate the negative consequences.

[00:30:04.71] spk_1:
She thought it was good or bad. I

[00:30:06.58] spk_2:
don’t know. She asked me this question like five minutes into my presentation so I will get to the pros and

[00:30:12.54] spk_1:
cons. Okay. But you just defined it.

[00:30:16.20] spk_2:
She’s like, I’m confused and I was like, I know sometimes it seems a little weird,

[00:30:19.98] spk_1:
you reassured her that we’re going to talk about it. Yeah.

[00:30:25.51] spk_2:
One of the other really curious questions I had was um, is trying to match personalities, going to create an equity.

[00:30:34.41] spk_1:
Well, she’s right to be equity focused on not just hiring somebody who looks like you and spends their social time like you and you know, that’s valuable. She’s equity concern here. She equity with inequity lens. It’s valuable.

[00:31:51.61] spk_2:
Okay. But I think that’s actually, and I really like that question because I’ve been reading a book called Quiet. And it’s the um the power of introverts and it talks about kind of like the history of introverts and how they’ve been so influential to the workforce and like the values that they bring and like real, like stories of these people. Um and some of the most influential people that we know today, like we’re introverts and I love this book, but it also says that um there was a shift in America where like the best virtue used to be like integrity. And then it kind of had this crazy shift to your highest virtue is like your charisma and like your ability to like be social and it kind of became like the highest rate of currency. And so those people were the ones succeeding in the workforce because that became like the new best thing versus like your integrity, like your loyalty and like you’re like everything else. Um Super interesting. So like, I love that question because I’ve definitely read about that before. Um So like, yeah, if you are, but then the then the question is not every, is every job best fit for an extrovert, not necessarily. Um So yeah,

[00:32:04.31] spk_1:
there are a lot of jobs where extroverts will be frustrated. Alright. Anything else, anything else on the topic? Quite quitting? But we haven’t talked about, I don’t want you holding out on nonprofit radio listeners from your session yesterday? Anything we talked about yesterday that we didn’t talk about today? Um

[00:32:45.29] spk_2:
I guess like one thing that I think might be helpful is when you are doing um and again, these are all things that you kind of learn the hard way. But um I was always in positions where I was again not getting reviews or I felt my reviews were important to my manager. So my reviews either were never scheduled and I had to be like, when’s my review? I think it’s been a year. Am I going to get a review? Like once my review and you had to remind that person, remind that person, remind that person to schedule a review and they’re always like, yeah, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna do and they never do it, right. Um I can’t tell you how many people have this similar experience and then when you get to the interview or like when an interview, when the review is scheduled, maybe they postpone it, they have to keep our scheduling because they’re not prepared and then you get into your review and they’re like, oh, five amazing job.

[00:33:00.39] spk_1:
How could you have possibly thought that your review was not important to them? Yeah, crazy

[00:33:41.00] spk_2:
conclusion. So, and it bothers me because reviews are important to employees. Like I’ve been on both sides of the thing. And so now as a leader, I will, when any employee starts, I schedule every single one of the reviews, like literally for a lifetime, even if the employee is no longer with me in my schedule and I can take that out of my schedule. So I do a 30 day review, a 90 day review and an annual review. And I have those immediately went on the employee on boards and I think that’s super important and like, I try my very, very hardest to never reschedule those meetings. Um Like you have to look ahead and you have to prepare for that meeting. Um, and you

[00:33:51.11] spk_1:
know, what can I take a little digression from that? That is eminently doable. If you put something in your calendar, you can preserve it. You just tell other people that you’re not available

[00:34:00.00] spk_2:
at. Exactly. And it’s just as important as any other obligation that you have in your schedule. Unless a

[00:34:23.39] spk_1:
crisis, immediate crisis or, well, crisis, you know, anything personal, anything large personal could be a crisis. Just the point is if you put something in your calendar, it can be protected. It’s up to you to protect it boundaries and with very few exceptions, you say no, I’m sorry, that’s buying another time. So this, you know, the idea that I, I couldn’t keep the appointment. Well, you didn’t want to keep it for whatever reason, you know, I may not know. But yeah, I mean, it’s easy to preserve things, just set the boundaries and enforce them. Obviously, a

[00:35:41.20] spk_2:
of course, I love someone told me one time that you can’t put meeting blocks in your schedule. You have to put meeting locks in your schedule. And I love that you’re valuing your folks. Yes. But when you, when you say someone, when you clearly didn’t put any time into a review, like you think you’re not attention anyways and that makes it easy to fly under the radar. Like I’m not going to put in more effort if like you like whatever, like I’m doing great. Okay, good. I think the next time I come to my review, you’re gonna tell me I’m doing great too, but I’ve been doing like half of what I did before like um but we use something called a five by five by five template and it’s like one of Gino Wickman tools under the entrepreneur operating system. Gino Wickman, Gino Wickman. Yes, he is the creator of the entrepreneurial operating system. A lot of people just say E O s but we use a couple of his strategies, not all of it, some companies completely go into every part of us, but some things we have found to be beneficial and one of them is the review format. And so the first column is your core values and behaviors and actions that represent those core values. Um The second column is a rating. So you write this employee on a scale of 1 to 5. The third column is what’s working in the fourth column is what’s not working. And you can definitely have things in both of those columns at the same time for a particular

[00:36:04.39] spk_1:
core value.

[00:36:25.80] spk_2:
Yes, yes. Um And so there’s, there might be one core value, but there might be four actions or behaviors that exhibit that core value for that specific employees position. Um And then the fifth column is my favorite. It’s the comments column, but there’s a very important aspect of this column and it’s supposed to be what can you do? What can I do? And employee engagement and performance is a two way street. And if you’re managing this employee, there’s always going to be something that you can do and something that they can do to fix what’s not working. And that should always happen in that comment section on our

[00:36:53.20] spk_1:
review. Anything you want to leave us with around quiet quitting. I don’t think so. How about some inspiration? Just maybe just, well, I’ll say it’s a reminder that it’s not good or bad. It’s neither um but some inspiration around what, what, what folks can look out for and how they can help their teams.

[00:37:20.84] spk_2:
Yeah, I think maybe something inspirational and I really truly feel this is that um I think non profit, the nonprofit sector, even though they, everyone keeps saying that we’re losing like the most talent and like the most employees than anyone in the great resignation um that needs to be changed. But I think, I think that we have the biggest advantage out of any sector to change that because we are the purpose sector. Like we are not for profit, all for purpose. And so I think we have like a hand up here and so I think we can do better.

[00:37:52.02] spk_1:
Delaney Mullinix, executive director, non profit hub. You’ll find them at nonprofit hub dot org, an outstanding resource for nonprofits, Delaney. Thank you very much for sharing. Thank you so much. You have a lot of valuable advice. Thank you and thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 23 N T C 2023 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Thanks for being with us.

[00:40:15.79] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two. I need a redox on last week’s. It isn’t, it is what it is. I think I stressed the wrong thing when I made the point that it is what it is absolved blame. And rather we should be accepting blame or accepting responsibility, accountability, either accepting it for ourselves or assigning it. Okay. That was the point I made last week. That was my major point. And there’s something that I just mentioned, which really is the bigger point. So that’s why I need the redux. I just mentioned that if you a sign, it is what it is to something, then you’re accepting it and you’re not looking at possibilities for changing the thing, the situation, the problem, you’re just throwing up your hands and saying it is what it is. It can’t be changed. So really what I want to focus on is not not accepting that is there some way that the thing, the situation, the problem, the issue could be changed and to know if it could be changed, we need to figure out who’s responsible. So that’s really, that’s really the flow of my thinking. Don’t just throw your hands up with it is what it is and give up on a situation if it’s important enough, look for ways that you can change it. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got Boo koo but loads more time here is email accessibility. Hello and

[00:40:35.88] spk_1:
welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 23 N T C. It’s the 2023 nonprofit technology conference and this is our first interview of the conference where we are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits with me to kick off our coverage is Coralie

[00:40:39.96] spk_0:

[00:40:40.58] spk_1:
Rodriguez. She is senior production specialist at Firefly Partners. Welcome Cora Lee.

[00:40:47.58] spk_3:
Thank you. I really appreciate the ability to be here and speak with you today.

[00:40:58.03] spk_1:
It’s my pleasure and I’m very much looking forward to the firefly pizza, dinner and beer celebration tomorrow night, right? I

[00:41:01.01] spk_3:
am as well. It should be a really good time.

[00:41:15.72] spk_1:
Okay, cool. So you’re there again? Alright. Your session topic here at 23 NTC is how to make your organization’s email messages accessible. Why did you think we need this topic? What are we not doing? Quite right?

[00:41:20.65] spk_3:
That’s a really good question. And it’s something that I myself have been learning a lot about over the past year and have determined that there’s all kinds of different things that we can do to make email accessible from the content that we are writing to the images that we use. The branding colors that we have and the design elements pulling everything together. It’s been a fascinating process to learn

[00:41:44.46] spk_1:
and there are a lot of people in the U S who have

[00:41:48.09] spk_3:
disabilities. Right. Very many. Yes. In all wide ranges of areas you wouldn’t even expect.

[00:41:54.53] spk_1:
I think, I think you cited in your description over 26% of U S population.

[00:42:00.20] spk_3:
Exactly. And it’s not only physical limitations but language barriers and temporary disabilities, all kinds of different things are covered.

[00:42:11.34] spk_1:
Okay. So let’s uh let’s jump in a bit. You have something called the W C A G email accessibility guidelines. Yes. What’s that? First? I have Dragon Jail on non profit radio. So you have to define W C A G

[00:42:31.71] spk_3:
I am very happy to these are the web content accessibility guidelines and they go for all digital assets out there. So not just email but web and Power Point presentations or anything else that is a digital asset.

[00:42:44.08] spk_1:
Okay. And so what can we learn from?

[00:43:06.04] spk_3:
These are international standards that are designed to create content that is accessible in all of these different areas. So what they do is they set the standards that we need to meet and there’s many different levels. Currently, there is the 2.1 level and that is the one where there’s both a double A and triple A level. Most folks especially in the nonprofit world are just learning about these. So they’re all brand new. So what we need to do is figure out what they are first and then how to apply them to our everyday work. Okay.

[00:43:27.81] spk_1:
The guidelines. So web content accessibility guidelines, W C A G. Okay. Um Just available online somewhere. I don’t know, where do we find them? First of

[00:43:31.70] spk_3:
all, they are part of the W three C consortium which is again part of the international standards around just web accessibility and everything out there. Basically, these are the folks who just find how Microsoft should be writing their code and how everybody else should be writing the code, setting the standards that they needed to meet. Okay,

[00:43:54.92] spk_1:
so, but do we as content producers, I mean, we need to know the W C A G guidelines because you said it filters down to like power points. So do we need to be, I mean, do we need to go and read the guidelines or is it just the guidelines are more higher level like Microsoft levels than, than, than our work?

[00:44:16.14] spk_3:
It’s a very good question. There are a lot of different criteria and really what you need to be aware of are the criteria that apply to your specific work. So me with email accessibility, there are about four or five that I need to pay attention to somebody’s doing Power Point presentations. There are other ones that they would need to meet, but these four are also a part of that.

[00:44:32.04] spk_1:
So first of all, the guidelines are online, we can find them. They are. Yes, web content

[00:44:37.57] spk_3:
accessibility guidelines. Thank you very much.

[00:44:39.67] spk_1:
Okay. Alright. So what specifically to email? So we’re talking about email accessibility. What do we need to learn from, from the guidelines?

[00:45:01.73] spk_3:
Yeah, what you need to learn around the guidelines is that there are four different criteria. The first one is around um having hyperlinks that are underlined in your messages. There is also one around color contrasts that you want to have a 4.5 to 1 ratio between the different colors that you use. And for example, if you think about the color of a background of one section of the message and then maybe a button on top of that, you want to make sure that the button color contrast ratio and that background color meat that 4.5 to 1 ratio. Okay.

[00:45:25.88] spk_1:
Okay. We’re gonna come back to that ratio. What are the other

[00:45:51.07] spk_3:
two? The other 21 of them is around the text that you use in the hyperlink that it needs to be descriptive. So I see very often in my work with clients that people are hyper linking and underlining. Read more or click more. Exactly. And that’s not descriptive for somebody who is using a screen reader or another accessibility device. They’re not going to know what they’re being taken to all they know is read more. And when the screen reader is reading an email message, it pulls all the links together in one spot. So it’s not necessarily as you’re reading through the content,

[00:46:07.36] spk_1:
that’s the key. It’s not in context with the sentence that the link is a part

[00:46:19.64] spk_3:
of correct. So they’ll see, read more, read, more, read, more, click here, read more and that’s not descriptive enough to know where they’re being taken basically

[00:46:22.55] spk_1:
worthless until you click every single thing to find. Okay. Okay. So uh alright. Yeah, I understand. All right. So the hyperlinked text itself and then what’s the final

[00:46:34.38] spk_3:
one? The final one is actually escaping me at the moment. I can’t.

[00:46:38.28] spk_1:
That’s okay. It’ll come back to you. I bet you let’s go back to color contrast. How do you know what your ratio is? There

[00:47:14.78] spk_3:
are luckily a lot of different color contrast checkers out there on the web. My favorite one is color contrast CC and that one is where you simply go in and you enter the hexi decimal values of your colors. And that’s one way of reading what the colors are and it will tell you in comparison like say a dark purple font on a light lavender background. You’ve got those two hexi decimal values, you can compare them in the tool and it’ll tell you exactly what that ratio is. So if it’s a 3.24 to 1, you know that you need to make your dark purple darker or your lavender lighter in order to increase that contrast ratio. Okay? Because you

[00:47:24.72] spk_1:
want to be where between four,

[00:47:26.88] spk_3:
4.5 to 1,

[00:47:32.71] spk_1:
4.5 to 1? Okay. 4.5 to 1. Okay. Okay. Alright. So that was color contrast CC Yes, just color contrast CC dot com.

[00:47:37.56] spk_3:
Yeah, if you look out there, just a simple search for color contrast that will give you a lot of different options out there. So that’s just my personal favorite. And your

[00:47:45.75] spk_1:
designer should know your hex decimal numbers exactly for the different colors you’re using. Okay. Um Is there anything more to say about the hyperlinks underline part? Is it just that they should be underlined?

[00:48:23.11] spk_3:
Really? Because we’ve switched away from making things so accessible over the last 10 or 20 years. Really, we want to make sure that you’re underlining those and that’s super important because it’s going to be consistent with other people’s email messages out there. That’s what folks are expecting to see. So if your color contrast number one, they’re not strong enough having that hype underneath it. The text decoration is really going to call it out so that it’s very clearly identified and able to be seen when somebody is scanning through a message quickly

[00:48:33.31] spk_1:
and underlining, underlining more valuable than just bold facing a hyperlink. Yes, specifically underlined,

[00:48:41.26] spk_3:
specifically underlined.

[00:48:44.21] spk_1:
The fourth one occur to you by any chance yet.

[00:48:47.13] spk_3:
No, it still hasn’t come to mind. We’re going to move

[00:48:52.43] spk_1:
on A D A, the American Disabilities Act, email Compliance. That’s another, this is another standard we need to be aware of it

[00:49:00.47] spk_3:
is and it’s taken into consideration with the wicked guidelines. So this web content accessibility guidelines. Pulley and all of those A D A requirements as a part of it.

[00:49:16.88] spk_1:
Oh okay. So we’re all right now we’re now we’re in like insider not W C like I was calling it I’m trainable. Okay. I’ll call it all right. So if you’re so in other words, if you’re hearing two week ag then you’re you’re hearing to A D A, you are, you are necessarily. Yes. Okay. Alright. So one set of guidelines covers us. It

[00:49:34.86] spk_3:
does the wicked guidelines really took all of those accessibility things into consideration around disabilities.

[00:49:45.47] spk_1:
Um Anything more you want to say about before we move to another topic?

[00:50:15.72] spk_3:
No, I I think it’s something that you really need to pay attention to and I’d say the only other thing I’d love to add is that there are changes that are due out at the end of May 2023. So what we’re setting us our standards right now may change. I don’t expect them to be dramatic, but there are dramatic changes coming in the future. I just don’t think that they’re quite going to be released at the end of May 2023 COVID gave us a little bit of a remission space where people are um putting out things a little bit slower than they used to in the past. So it’s

[00:50:44.95] spk_1:
coming, this, this will likely air, uh, in or after May of this year. So, so if we just keep, keep on top of week ag, well, we’ll have the most current whenever mean, either it’ll either be pre change or post change. But, so if you’re looking in May, you might want to look again in June, July to make sure because there’s changes coming.

[00:50:47.07] spk_3:
Yeah, that’s the point. Yeah, the May 2023 ones are some of the bigger ones, but there’s definitely another full version. Let’s do it after that right now. We’re at 2.1 and I think it’s supposed to be jumping up to 2.3. Okay.

[00:51:29.02] spk_1:
Okay. Uh In the background you’ll hear 23 NTC kicking off because because non profit radio is uh is more efficient than the conference overall. So we started about 10 minutes, Cora Cora Lee and I started about 10 minutes before the conference officially kicked off. But in the background, you may have heard that I don’t know if you could recognize the voice, but that was Amy Sample Ward, the CEO kicking off 23 N T C uh here on the exhibit floor. Alright. So let’s go to uh email accessibility, best practices for designers. There’s more, there’s more than just

[00:52:01.72] spk_3:
there is that you really need to think about those color contrast ratios and the color contrast checkers from a designer’s standpoint. In addition to that you want to make sure you have plenty of space around your call to action buttons. Remember over 50% of folks are reading email on their mobile devices and they need space to be able to click the buttons and be taken to that action without interfering with other texts or other links that may be on the page as well. Sometimes

[00:52:22.49] spk_1:
it feels like people don’t, don’t recognize that. What is it? 80% or 80 85% of people are, are using the web and, and looking at email on their phone, right. They are so some smaller device and yeah. Right. That’s it makes so much you go to push you have to enlarge the screen a lot of times to get to the button that you

[00:52:43.27] spk_3:
want. Exactly. And only that button. Okay. Font size is also a really big important part as well. Like you mentioned with the scrolling. Think about the footer of any of your messages where you’ve got your unsubscribe link or change your preferences in the majority of messages that I see my clients sending out there using a small font and it is accessible. But sometimes I’ve had to myself scroll on my mobile device in order to click that unsubscribe, you want to make that easily accessible so people can get off your list and make sure that your email delivery ability rates stay high.

[00:53:04.55] spk_1:
Yes. Right. Because if people are ignoring your emails that hurts your deliver ability, likelihood it

[00:53:13.82] spk_3:
does. They could be marking you with spam and that’s going to definitely affect your email deliver ability.

[00:53:16.95] spk_1:
We don’t, yeah, we don’t have anybody this year on an email deliver ability, but we have passed NTC. You, you and I are talking about accessibility but deliver abilities a whole nother topic. It is all right. And so one of the things is you want people who are engaging with your emails, not just ignoring them or letting them sit and spam

[00:53:38.19] spk_3:
you want folks to be engaged so that they’re actively participating in your organization and supporting you. They know what content you’re putting out there. They’re in full support of your mission or if not they’re unsubscribing and leaving and going on to something else that they’re more interested in.

[00:53:53.98] spk_1:
But even if they, even if they don’t unsubscribe, the email providers are smart enough to know how people are treating your emails.

[00:54:03.12] spk_3:
Right. They are, they can see that there’s no activity and that’s going to affect your deliver abilities.

[00:54:15.30] spk_1:
Exactly. Alright. Anything else? Best, best practices for designers? I mean, you don’t have to be a professional email designer to be paying attention to spacing and font size.

[00:54:40.97] spk_3:
Know exactly. You do not what other best practices you also want to make sure that you’re limiting your use of all caps when your messages. Because what’s really happening is the all caps text comes across as very square and it’s not easily identifiable to somebody who is looking at the message quickly. So we all have a normal pattern of looking at words and recognizing them by their shape. When you’re using all caps, you’re taking that away and making all of the words very rectangular. So it’s harder to process what you’re reading.

[00:54:54.16] spk_1:
Interesting. So all caps is harder to process

[00:54:58.02] spk_3:
it is. Yes, indeed. We think it stands out. It does stand out, but it’s still going to take folks one second longer to really process what they’re reading.

[00:55:07.17] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Others, other best practices.

[00:55:10.49] spk_3:
Another one is not centering your text or if you’re going to center your text, use it with a very short headline. All of the other text of the main part of the message should be left aligned. And this again goes to the readability of the message that when you get to the end of the line, if everything is centered, it’s going to take folks a little bit longer to identify where the start of the next line is as they read down the message.

[00:55:36.87] spk_1:
Okay. So there are, there are studies about how people read, how long it takes them to read email on, on the mobile device.

[00:56:02.23] spk_3:
Yeah. Right now it takes about nine seconds for somebody to comprehend the content that they’re reading in a message or at least that’s the amount of time that they’re devoting on average to reading a message, especially if someone has cognitive disability, it’s going to take them a little bit longer to process, but their attention span is not going to be longer than those nine seconds. So, if you want to get your message across, you want to make sure that everything is really easy for them to read, identify and get the content out and understand what they’re reading.

[00:56:19.79] spk_1:
Nine seconds. That sounds like still just enough time for my mother to create guilt. Nine seconds doesn’t sound like much, but it’s eminently doable for her. Okay. Other best practices before

[00:56:32.78] spk_3:
we move on, you know, that’s really it for the design perspective. And again, like you mentioned, you don’t have to be a full designer to apply these to any message that you’re building. This is basic,

[00:56:49.29] spk_1:
I mean, just don’t use all caps or using very judiciously and don’t center only headlines, etcetera. Okay. Okay. I don’t see a reason for all caps. Is there, is there, is there justification for all caps anywhere?

[00:56:54.56] spk_3:
No, I think from the design perspective, it does make things stand out a little bit more. But if you think about processing time of somebody reading that that could be the negative for why not to use it,

[00:57:05.17] spk_1:
right? But it’s just it’s just taken as shouting too, right? I mean, I still perceive it that way. Is that, am I to 2002? Am I, am I still like a dinosaur when I see all caps? I still think people are shouting.

[00:57:18.28] spk_3:
Yeah, I think that is a generational thing because my daughter actually does not see it the same way. She doesn’t see it as shouting and she’s just 18, she’s 18.

[00:57:26.20] spk_1:
She does not. All right, Gen Z. Okay. Do you,

[00:57:30.21] spk_3:
what do you think? I think it’s all all shouting. Definitely.

[00:57:54.83] spk_1:
Alright. Thank you for representing you don’t have to be 61 like I am to think that it’s all shouting. All right. Um You’re another another sort of take away that you you promised is uh code html, emails with better accessibility. Now, now we’re talking about coding html. Is this higher level design type advice?

[00:57:55.82] spk_3:
You definitely have to have some understanding of what you’re looking for in the messages. And again, this definitely ties back to what email platform you’re using to send your messages. If they’re using a drag drop type of approach, you may not be able to get to the HTML. So this is something that you don’t need to pay attention to like a like a male chimp, like a male chimp or a constant contact dragging,

[00:58:24.28] spk_1:
dropping you highlight, you work, you enter what you want and and the provider puts it in the right place tonight format, et cetera, you just click a button to do what you want

[00:58:31.88] spk_3:
for you.

[00:58:32.25] spk_1:
Alright. Alright. So that’s this is higher level that the HTML part is for folks who are actually getting into the code.

[00:58:55.25] spk_3:
It is, but even along with us. There are definitely some things that you can look for such as adding all tax to your images. You want to make sure there is an alternative description for any images. We all know the outlook is not notorious for turning off an image. So the first thing you’re going to see is that alternative text, a screen reader is also going to see this the alternative text. So that’s how you get to explain exactly what the purpose of this image is. What is it containing? What’s the message you’re trying to get across?

[00:59:14.30] spk_1:
You know, a lot of this occurs to me is just, I don’t know, it’s kind of thoughtfulness if you just be thoughtful, like include all text, make your hyperlinks descriptive, you know, more than a word or two. I mean, some of this just seems like if you’re, if you’re conscious, you’ll be more thoughtful about accessibility.

[00:59:30.93] spk_3:
And that’s really what it is. One of the things I noticed that I was doing over the past five years was rushing through a message to get out the door. Somebody would give me the content of one hour and I had to send by five o’clock. And I know that that happens in a lot of nonprofits, you’ve got that deadline you have to meet. But if we stop and think about all these accessibility practices, it’s not that much more time that we’re adding on in order to get these messages able to be read by everybody out there.

[01:00:00.52] spk_1:
Um I’m interested in how you got into email. Message, accessibility. That’s pretty, seems like a pretty narrow niche.

[01:00:28.03] spk_3:
It is, but it definitely ties into everything else out there. I’ve been working an email for over 20 years, working in the male chimps. I’ve worked in illuminated online engaging networks, part of salesforce marketing cloud. You name it. There are very consistent things across all of those platforms and things that you have to do. You have to write the content, the message you have to have who it’s coming from the subject line, etcetera. So building upon that and diving into different things with different clients, I’ve learned about the email delivery ability. I’ve learned about now with within the last year, the accessibility and there’s always a new layer of something that you can learn tied into email that’s going to help nonprofits get their message out there and connect with the right people.

[01:00:54.30] spk_1:
You’ve spent 20 years working in email, you’re a dedicated email professional

[01:01:00.43] spk_3:
I am. And it’s a very unique place to be because it’s not like the web, the standards are not the same for how the email clients have to read the code that they’re getting in the messages. I

[01:01:12.49] spk_1:
say a little more about that.

[01:01:48.83] spk_3:
What do you mean? Well, think about Microsoft Outlook is one example and then you also have Gmail and you have Yahoo. There’s no consistency in how those email tools are built to read the messages and the code that they’re getting. So one will very happily accept centered buttons. Another one will not like outlook does not like rounded corners on buttons and there’s special coding that you have to use in order to enforce those background images behind messages. That’s one that’s really hard to do. And there’s a whole bunch of little nitty gritty details around the coding that you can force things to look one way or another. But you’re never going to get that perfect picture email to look the same on all of those different platforms. There’s approximately 15,000 different ways. Any one message could look when it’s sent out into the world.

[01:02:24.19] spk_1:
So how do you, I think what happens for a lot of us is we just were not email 20 year email professionals like you are. So we just say screw it. I’ll just, I’ll do something else. Uh Forget the rounded edges, forget the background image, you know, I’ll just, I’ll do something else but uh but as a 20 year email professional, so alright, 15,000 different platforms. We’re talking about different renderings, right? Rendering of email. How do you, so how do you satisfy a client who isn’t going to just say screw it?

[01:02:39.25] spk_3:
That’s a really good question. I

[01:02:41.14] spk_1:
want it this way for 99% of the people who get my email. And

[01:03:13.26] spk_3:
what do you do? What I do is I look at their data list and I see what email clients, their supporters are using. And from there, I see what the top percentages are. Is it. Outlook is a Gmail is a Yahoo and I make sure that the emails look good in those top 20%. And then when we get down to the very bottom of that $15,000 list, well, you really can decide, you know that. Okay, maybe um there’s an Apple device that folks are really not using very much. Maybe that’s only 1% of their audience. And that’s the one that we make sure it looks good, but it’s not going to match the others.

[01:03:25.25] spk_1:
Okay. That was, that was the hypothetical client who said, make it look right for 99%.

[01:03:31.12] spk_3:
And that is a real client. They do this.

[01:03:37.40] spk_1:
All right. Well, we won’t deal with the one who says it’s got to be 100%. Um All right. Very interesting. All right. Anything else you want to tell us about email message accessibility? We have, we have time together. If there’s anything we didn’t cover that you want to talk about?

[01:04:26.97] spk_3:
Yeah, one more point that I’d like to make is around the language that we’re using in our messages. There is a style of writing called plain language which uses simplified simple sentences and everyday language which really breaks down the barriers about the content that we’re sending out into the world most of the time you would think that writings that everybody could understand would be a best practice naturally. But in the way that we write in the news media through health information, and I do work with a lot of health focused nonprofit organizations. The language gets overly complex and it’s not necessarily underst by those who are receiving the messages. So if we use a plain language style of writing that is going to really help break down the words that are used and the intent of the message so that everybody can understand

[01:04:42.25] spk_1:
plain language. Does that just mean try to write more like the way we speak?

[01:04:47.68] spk_3:
Yes. So it’s less like what you learn in college as the professional, you know, this is the grammar style that you need to use. All

[01:05:06.30] spk_1:
of that contractions could be okay. Exactly. I can’t instead of I cannot, you know, alright, so more friendly, more, more, yeah, more friendly sounding tone. Yes. Is

[01:05:09.42] spk_3:
preferred. It’s going to be understood by a wider audience base.

[01:05:21.59] spk_1:
Okay. So forget what you learned in in uh your college English course because that was ready for academe journals, essays and theses, but we’re writing blog posts, emails sidebars. You know, we don’t, we don’t have the luxury of 15,000 words for, for, for a research journal. You know, we’re trying to get our point across in like 200

[01:05:39.65] spk_3:
words. Exactly with somebody who has a very short digital attention span,

[01:05:45.52] spk_1:
but still long enough for my mother to create guilt. Alright. Alright, Cora Lee, we’re gonna leave it there. Are you okay? Anything else?

[01:05:53.39] spk_3:
That’s all I’ve got today. I really appreciate this. Thank

[01:05:55.62] spk_1:
you. When you’re, when you’re doing your, are you doing your session?

[01:05:58.39] spk_3:
My presentation is this afternoon I think 2 45. All right, good luck. I hope

[01:06:11.71] spk_1:
it goes very well. Thank you. All right, my pleasure, Cora Lee Mead Rodriguez, senior production specialist at Firefly Partners. Looking forward to the party tomorrow night and thank you for being with our 23 NTC coverage where we are sponsored by Heller consulting, technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits.

[01:06:51.58] spk_0:
Next week, data, maturity and engagement and stewardship. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by Donor Box with intuitive fundraising software from Donor box. Your donors give four times faster helping you help others. Donor box dot org. Our creative producer

[01:06:52.72] spk_1:
is Claire Meyerhoff

[01:07:12.33] spk_0:
shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our rep guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty B with me next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for October 5, 2020: SEO For Your Fundraising Campaign & Rebrand Vs. Refresh

My Guests:

Michelle Frechette & Amanda Gorman: SEO For Your Fundraising Campaign

Our 20NTC panel helps you build your online community and increase engagement with 3 SEO strategies: keywords research; competitor analysis; and, content writing. They’re Michelle Frechette and Amanda Gorman, both from GiveWP.





Yvette Scorse, Christopher Wallace, Taylor Shanklin & Serrie Fung: Rebrand Vs. Refresh

Which is better for you, rebranding or refreshing your brand? Our final 20NTC panel helps you choose, then shares the case study of Byte Back and reveals strategies for getting the buy-in you’ll need for success. They’re Yvette Scorse and Christopher Wallace from Byte Back; Taylor Shanklin at Firefly Partners; and, Serrie Fung, founder of Zest.

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[00:02:30.54] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with Ikaria if you irritated me with the idea that you missed today’s show s CEO for your fundraising campaign. Our 20 NTC panel helps you build your online community and increase engagement with three S c o strategies, keywords, research competitors, er analysis and content rating. They’re Michelle Frechette and Amanda Gorman, both from give W P and rebrand versus Refresh, which is better for you re branding or refreshing your brand. Our final 20 NTC panel helps you choose, then shares the case study of bite back and reveals strategies for getting the buy in. You’ll need for success. They’re Evette Scores and Christopher Wallace from Bite Back Taylor Shanklin at Firefly Partners and Sorry Fung, founder of Zest Antonis, take two planned giving accelerator were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives raise more money, changed more lives tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and free month Here is our 20 NTC penultimate panel. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s a 2020 non profit technology conference. The conference regrettably had to be canceled, but non profit radio is persevering, of course. Virtually sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial. With me now are Michelle Frechette and Amanda Gorman. They are both with give. W. P. Shell is head of customer success, and Amanda is customer success manager Shell and Amanda. Welcome.

[00:02:32.44] spk_1:
Thanks for having us

[00:02:54.94] spk_0:
the pleasure. Thank you. I’m glad we were able to put this all together. The three of us. Thank you, Andi. It’s good to know that each of you is well and safe both in Rochester. Alright, Alright. Um, you’re 20. NTC topic is three s CEO strategies for optimizing your fundraising campaign. Um, Michelle, why don’t you start us off? What? Why did you feel a need? Thio have this workshop?

[00:03:01.64] spk_1:
Sure. So you know, we work with nonprofits all day, every day, helping them do fundraising. And Amanda’s area of expertise outside of working with nonprofits, is actually, um, s CEO. And so it was just a natural, um, natural thing for her to want to help, uh, people’s organizations be found on the web, especially so that they can collect donations.

[00:03:24.87] spk_0:
Okay. Um, Amanda What? What? Air Nonprofits Not getting so right about the S e O That that we needed this this session.

[00:03:35.14] spk_1:
Looks like a man has just lost her connection.

[00:03:37.34] spk_0:
Yeah, Amanda did. She’s back. Okay, there she is. Your back Amanda

[00:03:41.98] spk_2:
back. I’m sorry. My Internet just decided to kick me out first.

[00:03:45.54] spk_0:
Okay. That’s why I had to cancel the session earlier. I lost it for too long, and I had a whole bunch of them back to back. Um, did you hear? Did you hear what I was asking you? Why? What air? Non profit. Really not getting right with S e O. That that we We needed this session.

[00:04:00.84] spk_2:
Yes. Yes. And Michelle, did you already give your answer?

[00:04:09.44] spk_1:
Yeah, I already talked a little bit, but But, you know, what are they doing wrong? Or they missing the mark on is really for you,

[00:04:09.88] spk_2:
right? Right. Absolutely.

[00:04:11.83] spk_1:
So there’s a couple of things

[00:04:13.18] spk_2:
that we we definitely see and just in my experience, working with a lot of our customers and working with kind of my own intention of starting on non profit and getting excited about that kind of looking at what is out there and what I am saying in the gaps is just like we get really excited about producing a campaign and kind of jump a lot of steps of just getting things started to start raising money. But we don’t necessarily look at the initial steps that should be thought about before the campaign actually hits the page. So what should the content look like? What kind of people are we actually hoping? Engage with us? What are our expectations for those people and how are they going to feel while engaging with our brand or company or organization? I think some more thought needs to be done with all of that before just kind of putting something on the website s o. I try to slow it down a little bit and really get careful about the messaging. Really? Get careful about exactly what we’re trying to communicate on. That all starts with, you know, keyword research and ah, lot of other strategies,

[00:05:43.94] spk_0:
which which we’re gonna get into. We have time. Eso You’re the troublemaker, Like people want to get, like, you just Can we just start the campaign, You know, way, you know, why do we have to have mawr ground work We’ve already done. You know, we’ve talked to our key stakeholders, and we’ve got me first dozen donors lined up and and we’ve We’ve got messaging out, you know? So you wanna lay more groundwork? Yes. Yeah, For success. So you have better outcomes. Of course.

[00:05:47.41] spk_1:
Sometimes you hear that people say to us, you know, I built a website and I have a fundraising page, but we’re not raising any money. And so it’s not like the field of dreams, right? You don’t just build it and they show up. There’s a lot of work that goes into driving people to your donation page

[00:06:34.94] spk_0:
where we should have learned that with first with websites on, then with blog’s and then with podcasts. You know, you don’t just put it out and people come to it. You should have. We should have learned this lesson by now. All right, way. Haven’t Yeah, not. Not satisfactorily. Not all right, um All right, so let’s Let’s stay with you, Michelle. You have three principles of building the online community. Uh, be intentional, aware on build trust. It sounds like most of the most of the time will be spent with the three s e o strategies. So but just can we go through the The three principles of building kind of quickly is that I have That

[00:06:42.56] spk_1:
s so you know, the way that Amanda and I have kind of structure is it’s like building a garden. You can’t just throw the seeds in the yard and expect that you’re gonna have a beautiful garden at the end. You have It has to be intentional. You have to, you know, turn the soil. You have to plant the seeds. You have to water them. You have to tend them. You have to weed things out. Um, you have to decide what you’re planting. Are you planting? Ah, perennial, Are you planting an annual? So do you want these things to continue to grow and continue to come back? Or is it something that’s a one time one time deal? So it really has to be. It has really a lot of those same ideas behind anything that you do and you want to do well, is it has to have those those principles behind it in order for it to flourish.

[00:07:21.24] spk_0:
Okay, Michelle, that’s a particularly apt metaphor for you the garden, because in the background, I see a flowering. I don’t know if those air daisies, uh, in the in the brown frame, but

[00:07:31.76] spk_1:
flower you painted

[00:07:42.14] spk_0:
that. Oh, awesome. All right, all right. They’re flattering. They’re flourishing. So perfect. Perfect metaphor. Um, so be intentional. Be aware. Oh, and build trust, say a little about building trust.

[00:07:47.24] spk_1:
So building trust is super important. But you have to be a kn organization that people want to give money to. So in order for somebody to give you their money, they have to know that it’s going for a good cause. So you have to have put out there be a transparent, uh, you

[00:08:01.12] spk_3:
know, be

[00:08:01.93] spk_1:
intentional. Show where that money is being used. Show how it’s being used. Ah, lot of nonprofits that don’t succeed aren’t necessarily doing anything wrong, but they’re not being transparent and how their money is being spent. And so sometimes people assume because CEO is putting or the director’s lining their pockets, things like that. So with intentional, you know, um and and building trust, it has a lot to do with just making sure that people understand what you’re doing.

[00:08:28.44] spk_0:
And how about be aware, Amanda, What does what does that one mean?

[00:08:33.24] spk_2:
Uh, that kind of really comes down Thio not stopping your efforts after all the great work you’ve done of getting your campaign out there but continuing to be aware of your market, your your industry overall and being an authority in that industry so that you are continuing to update your website your landing page for your campaign. You’re keeping your donors informed. The newsletter by Social Media. You’re making changes to your campaign as things start to change in your goals and whatever else might come your way. Eso really being aware of where you stand and how others air being helped, how you’re helping and how you can really fill in the gap. If there are any gaps out there that you’re aware of,

[00:09:46.74] spk_0:
okay, and all this has to be communicated. Thing is, all part of your messaging right is how you fill the gap where what important role you play exactly. Exactly. Okay. All right. So, Thio, build this online community. You have. You have 33 seo strategies. Eso keyword research, competition and competitive analysis and content writing. You wanna you wanna kick us off with keyword research? What?

[00:09:51.94] spk_2:

[00:09:52.53] spk_0:
but how? This relates to the groundwork we gotta lay beforehand.

[00:09:56.64] spk_2:
Absolutely. So keyword research is always a great place to start for N E S C o strategy, but especially for our nonprofits. We want to make sure that we get a really good understanding of what our goals are right from the beginning. And that has to do with keyword research Because N E S C o campaign, it isn’t a campaign for ASIO without keywords, right? We have to be able to know what keepers we want to show up for in search s so that we can connect with our ideal customers or are ideal clients in that way. So keyword research for me is this kind of going with the metaphor of the garden is this idea of planting seeds. So we’re starting with those little seed keywords. We’re putting them in the ground and kind of burying them with a bunch of fertile soil and then hoping that they grow into something really excellent for our campaigns. Eso specifically using a lot of tools, uh, to access keywords on the Web. I have a lot of free tools that I utilize. Um, so just Google itself, using the Google, suggest bar where you just type in your ideal keyword and then seeing the suggested key words that come up when you search in any keyword. That’s a great place just to get some ideas. If you’re stuck or you just don’t know what keywords could be related to your topic s. Oh, that’s a really great way to see what people are actually searching. And then thio kind of go from there to develop your content and toe, understand how your best going toe, You know, find yourself in search.

[00:11:24.04] spk_0:
Is there another free tool that you can shout out?

[00:11:27.24] spk_2:
Yeah, mas dot com has ah free keyword tool. I m o z m o z dot com. They could do have some free tools that you can use just to get some quick searches out there for your a topic that you’re looking for. The Google trends uh, tool on Google also is a great one to check out. And just Google keyword planner, Uh, that’s a free tool. You do have to have an ADWORDS account, but you don’t have to run any ads with Google in orderto use that tool, and you can search for keywords. You can see the competitors, er analysis for all those, as in terms of how many clicks they’re getting or how much people are bidding on those keywords in ad words. But again, you don’t need to use or spend any money on ads in order to see that information

[00:12:20.89] spk_0:
to get get the value of the of the keyword research you don’t have. Right,

[00:12:21.77] spk_2:
right? If

[00:12:22.64] spk_1:
you do

[00:12:23.20] spk_2:
run an ad, you would get more detailed research. You’d be able to get specifics about exact dollar amounts as to what is being spent. But in the free version, you just kind of get an estimate of low medium high. What somebody is spending on a particular keywords so you can kind of gauge for yourself. Is this worth going after or is this something people are paying for ads on And I don’t wanna waste my time here if I’m not going to spend ads myself.

[00:12:50.84] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Michelle, can you tell us about competitive analysis? Which to me, sounds like some kind of corporate espionage

[00:13:32.64] spk_1:
work. It’s not so much corporate benchmarking, right? Taking a look at what is what is your competition doing? So, um, you know, non profit don’t compete in the same way that for profit organizations do. They’re not selling widgets, for example. But they’re competing for those discretionary dollars that people are looking to spend, um, via donations. And so it’s important to look at other organizations that are similar to yours, See what they’re doing. Look at their content. Look a TTE how they structured their There you are Else. Take a look at all of the different things that go into play a SZ faras how they’re putting themselves on the web, search for them. See what kind of search using search terms that you think they might be using and see what comes up on. Do you know you can’t really just call them up and say, Hey, what keywords are you using? Because, you know, that’s kind of your little secret, but you can. There’s a lot you still can do as far as, um, you know, using Google to find things and then also just looking at their website and looking at the way they formatted. They’re blogged looking at their donation page there about us Page and things like that and how they structured all their content.

[00:14:01.06] spk_0:
Okay. And, um, you said, And I think you said benchmarking. But you can also use all that competitive information to distinguish yourself. Sure, if there’s a niche, you’re you’re tryingto fit into that, they don’t do. You can? Yeah, Like I said, distinguish yourself. I’m not sure how you would do that, though.

[00:14:24.45] spk_1:
Well, for example, there’s e think there’s 14 dog shelters in our county here outside of Rochester, you know, And so $14 or animal shelters? Um, some of them are no kill shelters. So if if you have half of them are kill shelters and half of them are no kill shelters. You wanna make sure to use words that people are searching for specifically, so can you distinguish yourself is a no kill shelter? Can you distinguish yourself? A zone organization that fosters out pets is not just keeps them engages in your own in your own space. So there are different things that you can do by looking at your competition in your area to make sure that what you’re doing might be different and how you can distinguish yourself. That way.

[00:15:53.54] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Last week I told you a friend got a long quote in Business Insider magazine. It was beautiful. I asked him how he landed it because he had a relationship with the journalist. Longstanding relationship. The writer called my friend when he needed someone with recruiting expertise. Turn Two will help you build journalist relationships like that so solid that journalists are calling you. They specialize in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Pan A. Pento, was an editor at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo now back to S. C. O for your fundraising campaign. Also,

[00:15:54.02] spk_2:
when it comes to the content that you’re writing, I just wanna add that you’re really in terms of S C o U. You wanna earn those clicks, right? So the more content you have on your website relating to your service is but also relating to just things that you’re passionate about, things in your community that your followers are really at attuned to. What can you write that’s going thio connect with them more deeply than maybe some of those competitors are. What are people not talking about? That you want to talk about in your space that you find is important?

[00:16:27.24] spk_0:
Okay, okay. And that was that was the third strategy. Content writing eyes. Anything more You wanna, either if you want to add about about

[00:16:34.90] spk_1:
that, it was like I got this a

[00:16:37.75] spk_0:
lot more. Yeah, please.

[00:16:38.67] spk_2:
Yeah. I

[00:16:39.73] spk_1:
mean, when it comes

[00:16:40.47] spk_2:
to content rating, it’s that’s kind of the end result for your strategy, of course, with those keywords planning Ah, the competitors research and then actually getting content on there on your website, that is, or your landing page for your campaign. It’s all about connecting with your audience and doing so again and again and again. Eso providing value is really what the content is all about. It’s not necessarily just I want to get clicks. I wanna provide value. I wanna be there for my community and provide them with a place to get authority of information, and I mean in information with integrity, something that they can trust and that they can lean on to come back to for fax. Being an advocate in your community, for research to be a deliver of information, especially as a non profit, can become a really awesome way to connect with your community. If there’s a study that’s been done in your industry that no one’s written about yet, something that has a lot of data and numbers that you can put into some context for your community to better understand, that’s going to really build trust in your community. And that’s all done through the way that you write your content.

[00:18:01.04] spk_0:
That’s a long term process to. That’s not. That’s not something you you throw together because you’re anticipating volunteer campaign in the next six months. Building trust, ability. You know your bona fides wherever you want to describe it. That takes time,

[00:18:07.34] spk_2:
absolutely, and

[00:18:08.55] spk_0:
it takes

[00:18:09.34] spk_2:
dedication because it it is hard work and typically a block post that I see that rank in Google because there are so much content coming out. There’s so many block posts being released every single minute of every day. It has toe have your blood, sweat and tears in it. You’ve really gotta put your energy into writing a piece of content that’s going to get shared, and that’s going to get some love on it. On social media and just from your community, however, you’re sharing it. Eso really putting in the time and effort to know what’s already out there and what you can do better is where you could really distinguish yourself.

[00:18:46.14] spk_6:

[00:18:47.31] spk_1:
lot of, ah lot of non profit don’t even have blog’s. You know, I would say anecdotally, probably, you know, less than half of what we see on a regular basis are building regular content, um, new content onto their websites. So, you know, just getting the block and getting it going is half the staff is half the process. But following the steps for S e. O. Is going to take that even the next level.

[00:19:09.54] spk_0:
Okay, um, since you both give W p. Michelle and you’re the you’re the head of customer success, what’s give W P about you couldn’t explain a little bit.

[00:19:18.72] spk_1:
So give w P. Is WordPress is a WordPress plug in, and what we do is we build dynamic donations pages for people so they can use our software to make a really, truly dynamic donation page for their website. You can build in all those keywords and and do a lot of content on their images. Video text for sure. And then we have a suite of add ons that give you additional functionality. So recurring donations, you know, few recovery tributes, functions things like that.

[00:19:47.54] spk_0:
Okay, so W p is the WordPress now Western Pennsylvania.

[00:19:54.75] spk_1:
Correct. Were a little bar global. Okay.

[00:20:04.54] spk_0:
I knew it wasn’t Western Pennsylvania when you told me you both in Rochester. So, uh, okay, WordPress Alright. Um, okay. Uh, we we’ve I mean you pretty much. We’ve covered your three principles of building and the three Seo strategies. Um, who wants toe leave us with some parting thoughts.

[00:20:16.64] spk_1:
Go ahead, Amanda.

[00:20:28.34] spk_2:
Eso eso gracious. Thank you. Yeah, s Oh, thank u s o. All of this is to again build that community, right? So it can be a little dangerous at first when you’re approaching SDO strategy to kind of get lost. And I need x y z toe happen. I need so many clicks. I need this kind of engagement for my campaign to be successful. Uh, I think it’s more important. Thio. Measure your success by the way you’re providing value and to keep at it. And if your timeline that you’ve originally set yourself up with isn’t necessarily met, adjust it. Make changes, return to the start of your keyword research. Go back through the competitors er research, and then start writing content in a different way, doing a B testing or whatever you can do within your markets. Thio produce content in different ways and test and see what works best is really important and to not get discouraged because as long as you’re producing and you’re providing value, that’s what’s really going to be important for your community in relying on your community to ask questions and Thio engage with you and to help you be better is something that should definitely be leaned on.

[00:21:42.74] spk_0:
Okay, be willing to listen. Yes, yeah, yeah, both from Rochester, New York that was Amanda Gorman, customer success manager. It give W P and Michelle Frechette head of customer success, give w P on Michelle Amanda, Thank you very much. Thanks so much for sharing.

[00:21:59.04] spk_1:
Thanks for having us.

[00:24:35.84] spk_0:
It’s a pleasure Thank you. Thank you. Stay safe and thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020 non profit technology Conference sponsored there, here, everywhere by Cougar Mountain Software. Thanks so much for being with us. It’s time for Tony’s Take two planned giving accelerator. It’s a brain dump. I’m gonna teach you everything I know about getting your plan giving program started in 2021. I’m going to do live trainings, which, of course, will be recorded for those who can’t make it live. Ask me anything. Sessions, exclusive podcasts. There’ll be a Facebook community all exclusive for members of planned giving accelerator. You’re gonna get your plan giving program started in 2021. We’re gonna identify the top prospects and the Tier two prospects. We’re gonna get the promotions started. We’re gonna develop a solicitor cultivation and solicitation plan for your top prospects. We’ll get the wider spread promotions, go out and going. I’m gonna help you reply. Answer those replies. You reply back. Thio requests for information. I’m gonna show you what to do. When folks tell you that they’ve included you in their wills. We’re gonna get you started I’m gonna get you started and we’ll get Yeah, we were gonna get started as a community going together. I’m leaving it. I’ll teach you everything I know. It’s all the info that you need. Is that planned giving accelerator dot com. I hope you’re gonna join me. We’re gonna kick this off in 2021. This being your plan? Giving program planned giving accelerator dot com. That is tony Steak too. It’s time for rebrand versus Refresh. Our last final ultimate panel from 20 and TC. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC 2020. Non profit Technology Conference sponsored A 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. My guest now are Evette Scores Christopher Wallace, Taylor Shanklin and sorry Fung. If that is communications director and bite back Christopher is also a bite back. He’s development director there. Taylor Shanklin is vice president of growth at Firefly Partners. And sorry is founder, branding and communications strategist at zest. All right, everybody welcome. Welcome to each of you. I

[00:24:38.93] spk_3:
tony. Hey there.

[00:24:40.74] spk_4:
Thanks for having us.

[00:25:04.14] spk_0:
Yes, I’m glad. Thank you. I’m glad we’re able to work this out virtually. And I know that you’re each well and safe in your respective places throughout the country. So I’m glad you’re 20. NTC Topic is brand new rebranding that will literally pay off event. Let’s start with you. What? What are nonprofits not getting quite right? Why did you Why did you all feel you needed this session? That’s a better way to put it.

[00:25:10.84] spk_1:
That’s a great

[00:26:01.34] spk_4:
question. I think there, of course, a lot of non profits are re branding and looking at that for us at bite back. We’re quite a small non profit were founded in 1997. So our branding really wasn’t matching up with our values the way we we’re communicating and the audience is that we wanted to attract where a tech organization and our reputation was kind of a ZX teaching older ladies how Thio use a mouse, how to type in the public libraries here, which is great work. And it’s work that we dio Um but we also needed to incorporate the really important tech training that we did that we still do Thio help people get careers that use technology. Eso For us, it was a matter of having our branding really match what we were doing in our work.

[00:26:06.94] spk_0:
Okay, s so that was a rebranding versus Ah, refresh, right?

[00:26:11.84] spk_4:
Yes, that’s right.

[00:26:23.44] spk_0:
Who’s the? Who’s the best person? Toe? Answer the question. What’s the difference between a refresh and rebrand? And how do you know which is best for your organization? Who? A tailor. You wanna talk about that?

[00:26:27.04] spk_1:
Yeah, sure. I

[00:26:27.74] spk_5:
mean, I’ve done everything under the sun in terms of rebranded and refreshing e, I think. Here’s how I think it I think about a refresh as sort of like a light rebranding. Right? Maybe you’re swapping out the logo a little bit or changing colors or coming up with a new tagline. But most of the things they’re staying the same. I think of a rebranding, Morris, something where you are going all in to say, What is it that we want people to always think about when they when they think about our organization and what’s that first impression we’re making? And we’re going to get at a real overhaul. So you might completely redo the logo. You might completely radio. Um, you know all of your assets and you know, color schemes and things like that. So I think there’s a lot that can go into it. Um, a refresh could be a good starting point for some organizations who maybe are not yet quite there and ready to go through a full rebranding when you’re thinking about all of the costs and things like that that come from it. So that’s a little bit of my perspective. I’d be interested to hear what some of the others here think about the differences between the two.

[00:28:20.64] spk_3:
I think sometimes it’s a little bit hard to tell whether you need a refresh or rebrand when you’re just kind of asking that that question of where our organization needs to grow. Um, so one of the organizations that I used to work for in Hong Kong, we felt like we just needed a refresh. We said We just need to kind of tweak the mission statement because I don’t think it’s quite sitting right. What ended up happening was, um, as we started asking the questions of what’s not right about this, what’s what. How are other people seeing our organization? We actually realized we needed to revisit the vision, the mission. We redid the logo. We redid our brand colors like and that was not where we thought we would end up. We thought we were just tweaking a couple of words. Um, so I You know, obviously this is this is also dependent on how much budget you have, how much capacity your team has. Um, but I’d say that it’s a little bit hard to know when you’re just starting the process.

[00:28:40.52] spk_0:
Okay, So is this a little bit of a cautionary tale that this thing can? Can Raval unravel out of control?

[00:28:46.74] spk_3:
It absolutely can

[00:28:48.54] spk_0:
boundary put boundaries around it.

[00:28:50.54] spk_3:
It absolutely can. But also, you know, you don’t have to do everything at once just because you know that eventually your organization needs to be in a state where you have rebranded, you can take smaller steps. Now, you know, we could have started with saying, OK, let’s let’s just tweak a little bit and then we’re going to keep keep working on it. Yeah, so it could be like,

[00:29:13.99] spk_5:
you know, let’s just risk in our website a little bit, and that’s a refresh versus Let’s redo our mission statement our values and our logo and our

[00:29:23.85] spk_0:

[00:29:24.26] spk_5:
point templates and our website and that’s a rebrand, right.

[00:29:28.14] spk_0:
And? And Christopher, what does this mean for the fundraising at, uh, bite back?

[00:29:34.54] spk_6:
Thanks, tony. Eso for us. We were making a big pivot from 60% government fundraising to trying to get a more sustainable model and approaching corporations and foundations and individuals in a different way. And so it really set us up in a way that we were able to highlight those other things and shared what we’ve been doing in a different way and have that at the forefront of our mission and our values and our activities in a way that people began to see that and see the workforce development and see that we were part of the tech community, not just a small training provider in a public library.

[00:30:03.92] spk_0:
So this was intentional on in your orc that you wanted to diversify revenue. That was that was known going into the rebrand.

[00:30:14.78] spk_6:
Yeah, Absolutely. Was definitely a driving point for us.

[00:30:20.34] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um, so let’s stay with you, Christopher. What? What do you think organizations should be thinking about or what? Like what? Questions should they answer in advance of either a refresher or rebrand? Or but you could you could make it. You know, you could stick with the rebrand, since that’s what, like Back did.

[00:30:36.94] spk_6:
Yeah, great question as well. And I know my fellow Panelists and go to that even deeper for us to

[00:30:41.99] spk_0:
great questions. Already s all downhill downhill from here. You got a very lackluster host. I’m surprised.

[00:31:09.84] spk_6:
Make the exit. Um, e um, for us. Yet defining the goals up front was really important. And so it was revenue. It was fundraising and thinking about how it was going to impact that, but also how it impacted the participants, that we work within the community, how they would see what we’re doing, how our partners would see us and and making sure that we were able to reflect, um, the values in a different way. So So setting those goals up front and knowing who your stakeholders are, you’ve got to define your stakeholders and who needs to be involved? Um, it is going to be more than just a communications department, um, during the development apartment and finding those before you start, it’s always going to be a key.

[00:31:30.34] spk_0:
Okay, Um did that Anything you wanna add? Thio? Uh, What What bite back was thinking about before you got started?

[00:32:16.04] spk_4:
Yeah, I would add that It was a really important part of our process involving our students who are adults taking our computer training. When at the beginning of the process of kind of looking at a rebrand Andi actually, looking at our mission statement, I brought it to a class of our students, and the language didn’t connect with them. Um, there were clear quotes of saying like, I don’t wanna be called underserved. Like, What does that mean? I don’t relate to that. And that really helped us in the process of getting buy in from leadership and from the board toe, Have that student opinion really tied into our we brand.

[00:32:21.64] spk_0:
So if that where did the process start? Was it between you and Christopher or because you said getting leadership by in So it didn’t start at the very top. Where did the conversation about this project start?

[00:32:33.24] spk_4:
Um, it really started with me. I was looking at our language. Our look on dhe kind of went through the process of getting that buy in and involving other leadership in the conversation and building it out,

[00:32:58.69] spk_0:
okay? And I do want to spend some time. We’ll get Thio getting that, making the case to the CEO, et cetera. Um, let’s see what else Eso taylor? What else? Uh, I guess we’ve kind of exhausted. Like what you should be thinking about. What? About? Do you have advice around finding the right provider to work with for your for your rebrand?

[00:33:12.34] spk_5:
Yeah. I mean, that’s a good question. Um, you

[00:33:15.08] spk_0:
were going from great to good. See that already? I told you that.

[00:33:18.44] spk_5:
Great e don’t know if I can handle this. Those by the

[00:33:21.80] spk_0:
end, by the end of the that was a lousy question, but I’ll do the best I can

[00:33:25.49] spk_5:
with tony. There was an all right question. That was an

[00:33:31.21] spk_0:
all right question. Going downhill very rapidly. Go ahead.

[00:34:08.14] spk_5:
You know, I think you could go through r f P processes. If you want to depend. I think on how much you are doing a refresh, you know, versus a rebrand. Uh, I would say a couple of my tips. Its first. Ask who you ask in your circle. Who you know who’s good. Um, see, if you have a friend and other organizations who have worked with someone to help them and see what that experience was like. I didn’t think if you do go into, like, an R F P process where you’re saying, Hey, I wanna this is what we want, you know, providers. Um, how can you service? I think just being very upfront about your needs is really important. I think a lot of times it’s easy to sort of, like put something put in, r P out there and then not be very specific. I think the more specific you get about your needs and the more authentic and conversational you are about that those needs in that process helps both the organization shopping for provider and the provider who is thinking through how they can best serve that organization.

[00:34:38.04] spk_0:
Sorry, you got some suggestions, like maybe things

[00:34:40.35] spk_2:
I wish

[00:34:41.23] spk_0:
people had thought through or asked before started. They started working with you.

[00:36:10.93] spk_3:
Yeah, so I definitely think well, back to your earlier question about things to think about. I think timing is a really big questions. So one of the first questions I always ask my clients is, Do you have a deadline? And when I say a deadline. I don’t mean in the sense of like, Oh, yeah, we want to get this done by next week. I mean, do you have a major fundraising event coming up? You know, Are you printing? You know, a new annual report anytime soon, because all of those things are major touch points with your clients that, um you would want to get right with your new branding before having those events. You know, the worst thing is, when you have your major gala dinner, your major fundraiser and then two weeks later you say, actually, just kidding. We’ve rebranded. Right? So you really wanna consider consider the timing of it? Um, I would say also in terms of picking, you know, someone Thio help you work on this. Having outside help really, really does help. And I’m not just trying to make a case for, like, all the consultants out there, Um but I think having fresh eyes um, What I found when I was working in house at a non profit was that I was so in it and I was using the language every day. I was using the materials every day that I couldn’t kind of take a step out to see what was wrong with it. Ah, nde, it really took. We were lucky enough to have the support of a pro bono agency. So that’s another consideration. There may be local agencies, advertising agencies or marketing agencies that may want to volunteer their time to support you in this area. On DSO, using that pro bono agency really helped us to get a fresh look on what we had been like struggling through for for a number of years,

[00:37:10.73] spk_0:
time for our last break. Dot drives that drives engagement that drives relationships. Dot drives is a donor pipeline fundraising tool, and it is the simplest one out there. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships, get the free demo for listeners. There’s also a free month. You go to the listener landing page at tony dot m. A slash dot We’ve got but loads more time for rebrand versus refresh. Did you do R f p or what was your process at bite back?

[00:37:17.13] spk_4:
I I let it. We had few of resource is like we have fewer resource is then because we didn’t have Chris doing this amazing fundraising work. Eso We spent about $270 at 99 designs and got a new logo, and I did most of the other work. Um, yeah, that that’s about how it happened.

[00:38:17.12] spk_3:
So I definitely think that you need someone internal. So even if you’re gonna find an outside consultant or outside pro bono agency, you need someone in house like event who’s like, really championing it, really driving it forward. Andi, I think the strength of what you did with fight back was that because you did all that research on discovery with your clients, with your donors, etcetera, that you were able to give very clear directions to these graphic designers that you were outsourcing the work thio in order to come up with a logo that actually fits What? You’re what you’re looking for. Yeah, that’s a good

[00:38:18.51] spk_5:
point. I mean of that. I’m glad you brought that up to. I think a rebrand doesn’t necessarily have to be out of your budget. There’s ways to do it. No matter what budget you have, you might have the budget to go out and hire an agency to do this or you might have the budget to freelance it and outsource it. And there’s so many tools that make that easier these days with resource is like 99 designs and fiber and up work. You can get really good work. Um, you know, by using those types of resources to

[00:38:51.92] spk_0:
Christopher, did you end up joining bike back after the after this project? Because there was no development director before then. Uh,

[00:39:00.76] spk_6:
e started just before. Just was in a different role within development department

[00:39:09.42] spk_0:
E. Okay, Um, what do you What do you see? Is the development department contribution, Teoh a rebrand? Yeah,

[00:39:15.92] spk_6:
absolutely. So if raising money and the way you raise money is a part of the goal, then the development department and your donors and key stakeholders, whether that’s individuals or corporations or foundations that you’re already working with, um, getting their opinion and and understanding the way that they see us an organization is going to be really important in that.

[00:39:36.12] spk_0:
So did you survey or focus group or just how did you go about understanding what their perceptions are?

[00:39:44.32] spk_6:
Yeah, Well, we’ve done is pick out like individual, um, stakeholders that we knew would be willing toe talk for, you know, 10 minutes and get opinions and thoughts and and here the way that they do the organization whenever we’ve been through this process.

[00:39:58.72] spk_0:
Okay, So you just did as individual interviews?

[00:40:01.11] spk_6:
Yep. Absolutely.

[00:40:17.31] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um event. Let’s let’s move Thio Getting the leadership by in. Uh, how did you approach that? You said you were the genesis of the idea. You have to get budget. You have to get time. Um, how did you How did you approach your leadership?

[00:40:22.81] spk_4:
Um, yeah, well, we had a new pretty new executive director at the time. And now our CEO, Elizabeth Lindsey. So a tw the same time that I was thinking about these things that was very much part of her role As she started thinking about the direction of bite back eso It wasn’t too difficult in my case. Thio get the buy in because it was clear we were founded in 1997. Um, our look, our feel our messaging was feeling like it wasn’t moving along with the direction of our work. Eso really We were partners in doing that and moving it along on dhe then as far as getting buy in from staff and board and other stakeholders. I think there are are always people who may be somewhat attached to an old look or a nolde feeling or an old message that you’re distributing. Um, but really, we had most people get on board pretty easily make good contributions as they were involved in the process, and asking them early on made a big difference in that,

[00:41:34.77] spk_0:
too. Sorry. Do you have some advice? Maybe for organizations that are not as unfortunate as if that was a bite back when there might be some reluctance?

[00:41:45.14] spk_3:
Yeah, eso in In the previous case that I was talking about, thankfully, the CEO was on board. However, what we didn’t realize this was a big mistake that we made was that you know, myself and some of the leaders in the organization with this pro bono agency, we kind of like went into a room and we came up with the new brand and then we you know, we just announced it to people and people were horrified. You know, this was a 30 year old organization, and, like Yvette said, people have really emotional connections to the old logo on dhe people. We got all kinds of questions, like, what’s wrong with the old logo? But we love the old logo. Ah, nde. And quickly we said we actually need to explain to people and bring people on board. Eso we

[00:42:36.80] spk_0:
did not. You did not evaluate who? The key stakeholders.

[00:42:39.80] spk_3:
No, we didn’t. We just kind of announced it at a staff meeting

[00:42:43.88] spk_0:
earlier. Okay?

[00:43:01.40] spk_3:
Yeah. And so and so what we did was we developed a a narrative for why we were doing this. We knew why, but we hadn’t told anybody. Why on dso we kind of outlined some of the challenges that we were having with our old branding and why it wasn’t working. Um, and then explain to people like, this is the vision of the next 30 years. This is where we wanna go. And this is why we feel this new vision really articulates not only where we’ve come from, but also where we’re going. Um And then at that point, we then went and did a whole stakeholder mapping on who are major donors who absolutely needs to know. Before we publicly launched the new brand because that was really important for people who had been involved with the organization for a very long time. It was especially important to get them on board. Um, and then one final tip that our agency gave us, which was excellent advice, which was, if you can give people a very small gift with your new branding on it. So we actually just came up with, like, a little bookmark that was very cheap, very cheap to make that we gave all of our donors all of our volunteers on Basically, the agency explained to us, the psychology is that people will feel mawr engaged when they own something. They feel like they also own the brand on dso that that was a really good move on our organizations

[00:44:12.41] spk_0:
part. Taylor, you have you have ideas around executive Buy in?

[00:44:48.19] spk_5:
Yeah, I think going back to just pulling in stakeholders early is important. Um, getting people to sort of workshop out in a room. Why, this is important and what the goals are behind it. And you know, something that I’ve done before in this kind of work shopping exercise is really just casting like the big picture vision of like, who are we? And how are we even trying to explain that? You know, what are the words we want people to think about? When when they think about our organization. For example, Andi even doing some fun exercises. Like what? You know, car, are we like, or what movie are we like? And, like, some of those kinds of exercises in a workshop can really pull out the creative juices and getting people to start thinking in a little bit of a different way. And then I think if the team feels like they’ve come up with it together, then they’re bought in, um, as opposed to because I’ve also been in those situations like Syria, where the marketing team wrote something out. And then you’re like,

[00:45:23.02] spk_1:
Hey, this is

[00:45:23.57] spk_5:
what we’re doing and everyone, huh? Why? And so, you know, also going through that learning, learning from those experiences and deciding, Hey, we need to bring in stakeholders from across the organization in a lot earlier to really talk about, like, who are we and what is our brand? Let’s talk about that first, and then that will help us think through

[00:45:45.79] spk_3:
what does

[00:45:46.13] spk_5:
the new brand need toe look like. And what does it need to say about us?

[00:45:49.80] spk_0:
Yeah, filling that gap between current perception and what? Where we actually are or wannabe. Um, Christopher, I’m gonna give you the last word since you’re in development, and you can again speak to what? What? What? The impact was what the great outcomes were for. Bite back.

[00:46:07.48] spk_6:
Yeah. So for us, we’ve gone from a $2 million organization to a $3 million organization and 60% government funding to 25% government funding. Um, yeah, it’s been a It’s been real for us.

[00:46:58.88] spk_0:
Okay, It could be real for you to We’re gonna leave it there. All right, that was That’s Christopher Wallace, development director. Bite back. He’s in New York City with him. Is, uh, that scores communications director. Bite back. She’s in Washington, D. C also, Taylor Shanklin, Sugar Mountain, North Carolina in the west of North Carolina and founder, branding and communication strategist exist in Memphis, Tennessee, on Tele Shanklin, vice president of Growth at Firefly Partners. Christopher, development director, bite back and event communications director. Bite back. Thanks to each of you. Thanks all for Thank you so much.

[00:47:02.48] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. much. Tony,

[00:48:14.58] spk_0:
Thank you. And thank you for being with tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Finale Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for free 60 day trial Thanks so much for being with us next week. Amy Sample Ward returns with a report on Equity in Technology. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives, raise more money changed more lives for a free demo and a free first month. Tony dot Emma slash dot Our creative producer is clear. Meyer, huh? Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this excellent music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York You with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great

Nonprofit Radio for September 28, 2020: End Of Year Fundraising

My Guest:

Jen Frazier: End Of Year Fundraising

Jen Frazier talks you through. What do you want in your workplan? How does the pandemic impact your strategy? It’s a comprehensive convo for your 4th quarter. She’s founder of Firefly Partners.



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[00:02:04.74] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the embarrassment of or a facial granuloma if I came to learn that you missed today’s show. End of year fundraising in Fraser talks you through end of your fundraising. What do you want in your work plan? How does the pandemic impact your strategy? It’s a comprehensive convo for your fourth quarter. She’s founder of Firefly. Partners on tony Stick to Planned Giving accelerator were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives raise more money, changed more lives. Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant a free month. My pleasure. Thio Invite for the first time to the show, Jen Fraser. She founded Fire Fire Fire Fly Partners in 2007 and has more than 20 years of experience in the nonprofit sector. She’s been at Planned Parenthood Federation of America and part of the team that planned and executed the march for women’s lives in 2004. Ah, high point in her career, she lives in Boulder, Colorado, with her two kids and gets around mostly by bike. Jen has a knack for putting things together, from project budgets and puzzles to Ikea furniture. The company is that Firefly partners dot com, and she’s at Jenna T. Firefly like Rufus T. Firefly, who knows that movie reference? Rufus T. Firefly. But she’s Jenna T. Firefly with one end. Yeah, T Firefly. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:20.24] spk_0:
Thank you so much. Great to be here. And yeah, it’s just it’s Jen at Firefly. So it’s done up. It’s It’s just Jan with one in at 80 Firefly or Twitter. Not genital.

[00:02:20.93] spk_1:
Your Twitter, your Twitter.

[00:02:23.02] spk_0:
It’s Jen at Firefly. Partner Janet Firefly is my Twitter, but it’s not Jenna T. It’s Jen at sea. It’s eight.

[00:02:30.95] spk_1:
Okay, look, look back at the email that you sent me on you said Gente Firefly. So I immediately thought of Rufus T. Firefly.

[00:02:40.24] spk_0:
Well, I like it. I like the reference to so that’s okay with me.

[00:02:49.04] spk_1:
It’s old Groucho Marx, but it doesn’t, but it’s it’s totally inapt because that’s not your Twitter. So your Twitter is

[00:02:58.44] spk_0:
Gen. At Firefly Gen. At Firefly. Yeah. Oh, well, I know I just Okay, Right

[00:03:16.27] spk_1:
now, we’re I’m quibbling. No, it could be Jenna t Firefly. Or it could be Jen at Firefly. Alright, so no. So your email was not incorrect. All right, so I take that part back. Your email was not incorrect. It’s just how we’re reading letters. E n a t I read. Oh, I read Jenna T Firefly and you read it, Jen, at Firefly, Your middle initial is not Is your middle initial by t By any chance?

[00:03:29.71] spk_0:
It is not.

[00:03:30.78] spk_1:
Because then I would’ve had a big score. All right? It’s not all right. Alright, so All right, so Alright, alright. I do apologize for saying your email was incorrect. That’s not true. It’s okay. Jenna T Firefly or Jen at Firefly. I’m sure you’re gonna get a ton of new followers now because we

[00:03:49.57] spk_0:
just wait. I gotta go. Look this up. Get this

[00:04:12.44] spk_1:
into the ground now. Yeah, OK, but I like the Rufus t Firefly reference to, so All right, I’ve got some construction going on here. You may very well here. There you go. There’s banging. You might hear some cutting banging, uh, crow borrowing crow. Barring my deck is being replaced. And, uh, you know when when you can have a contractors who works, you don’t tell them and send them off the job.

[00:04:18.91] spk_0:
No, you do not. You know, they show up, you put them to work.

[00:04:40.44] spk_1:
That’s right. And they continue working. And I don’t You don’t You don’t stop the working contractors so we’ll persevere. Uh, it’s just like in the background. But that’s the that’s the construction noise is on my side. In case yes, there is there wondering. Um, all right, end of your fundraising. What do we have Thio Do you have to keep in mind, like overview first and we’ve got plenty of time to spend on some details?

[00:06:01.64] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s obviously that time of year. Um, it’s ah, it’s a particularly crazy time of Europe, but we can’t can’t stop the end of your fundraising. For most, you know, non profit sits the bread and butter moment for most org’s. Um, I would say what we’re hearing and what we’re seeing from a lot of clients, which we’ll talk about in more detail, is certainly the Should we do it? How do we do it this year? Super crazy? I would say Absolutely. Yes, yes and yes, very enthusiastically. You have to ask on Dhe. You can’t be afraid. Can’t be shying away from it. But I’d say the biggest piece that’s different this year. Um, it’s sort of the contextualizing and sort of the way you’re going to go about your messaging. Um, obviously, people know kind of the fundamentals, generally speaking. But I would say the biggest mistake we see nonprofits do is you sort of have, like, not that much messaging. It’s a little bit cold. And then suddenly you’re like, Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You just, like, go straight in to the asks, like right away. And you hammer your supporters, um, which you know, might work OK in some years. But I’d say this year it’s certainly worth thinking about sort of again, like the context, the ways in which you’re approaching that messaging, but certainly try to mix it up also a little this year. Maybe not. Just go straight with just hard core messaging, messaging, messaging. Ask ask ass. We’re gonna talk about some of the ways you can kinda add a little bit, um, into your typical end of your messaging for folks who have only ever done sort of just straight like, Oh, well, I’m going to do a couple of things around giving Tuesday and then I’m gonna just hammer the last week of December or something like that. I would encourage you toe start now and start planning earlier and start thinking about some different messaging, arcs and timing to just provide your list a little more relief on dhe to sort of stand out in different ways because it’s gonna be Yeah, I think looking for some of the few fewer dollars it might be around this year. It’s gonna be more important ever than sort of like really refining and honing messaging that you go into the end of your with

[00:07:13.72] spk_1:
it. Sounds like some of what you’re suggesting is a little softer compassion. Maybe absolutely no,

[00:08:46.24] spk_0:
that I think you’re right on it. Za compassion space. I think that, you know, really key components that folks would you typically dio and definitely should try to dio, maybe even more so. It’s not just sort of the typical sort of Hey, look at all the great things we’ve accomplished this year, which is always a real key piece of any end of your look at the great things that you know we’ve accomplished together. I think some of the big pieces years also messaging and we standpoint from your non profit to your supporters, even if they haven’t been that responsible, been, um, real active in giving this year because it’s been a little bit of ah, anomaly for everyone still really contextualizing. It is we, but also really recognizing that everybody is in the same boat right now, and everybody is in a obviously very uncertain, unknown, probably economically challenged position. But that doesn’t change the work that you’re doing the organization and the critical nature of the support that folks can give to really help. You know, diseases don’t stop in a pandemic. We obviously get worse there. You know, the environment obviously isn’t getting any better. All whatever your cause might be. It’s still critical work. It was critical before. It’s still critical. Don’t try to downplay sort of the need to stone message about the importance of the work you’re doing, but obviously be very compassion. Leading I think with the messaging is probably one of the more little things in the context of this and saying you’re Yeah, I

[00:08:49.94] spk_1:
understand. What are some of the pieces that you feel belong in your end of year work plan

[00:08:57.04] spk_0:
in the work plan? So I think some of the things that folks are kind of experimenting with even more so this year is ways to make your messaging connect with your folks. So some of the suggestions I’ve heard from people that were incorporating with some folks is even just doing small video snippets that you might embed or drive You can either embedded in the messages themselves that you’re sending or have links. You know, just just have ah, still of the video that links to the embed on your site. Things like that from your either from your executive directors, maybe, or some of your program people, or even most effectively, some of your he volunteers that you might have, or donors that have been long time supporters of the organization, um, to really bring again that message and bring that face to face element into your messaging when obviously we’re all in a very disconnected distanced world right now, bringing the face of the organization so I can not just the team members by folks who are out there doing your work. If you had the opportunity to host or do some virtual event work, or maybe did your gala remotely this year providing snippets there again and or links back to that on your website so that people can, you know, kind of review if they weren’t able to attend the you know that live version of it you know, China showing some of that work and again showing some of that interactivity that you are incorporating. Um, and if you didn’t have the opportunity to do that this year, you could even right now incorporate um opportunities first with live fundraising, even during your end of your campaign, I know it’s gonna be a busy month for folks, but especially early in the month, you could hold a little virtual fundraising event a ZX part of your end of your If you’re feeling

[00:10:58.56] spk_1:
early in which month

[00:11:01.24] spk_0:
early in December. Sorry, it’s sort of in the heavy. Giving somewhere either around giving Tuesday at the beginning of the month or somewhere that you find is a strategic moment for you, probably not as it gets closer to the end of the month because there’s just too much going on. So it’s a either leading up to or right around or immediately after. Um, you could do it. Thank you. Virtual kind of giving an opportunity. Thanks for all the work that we’ve done this year. Help us. You know, with a big push and end of your there are lots of different ways you can sort of incorporate that messaging into your into our potential. Like many live event, even in the December time frame that really draw enthusiasm into

[00:11:50.84] spk_1:
your I have a couple of a couple of questions around. What you just asked, What were you just talking about? The video snippets. Might we put those what, on a like a fundraising landing page?

[00:12:12.14] spk_0:
Yes. Yes. I mean, you could certainly obviously host them in the m e o or YouTube, but you embed them on a landing page, that right there as they’re watching it, they have the opportunity to give right at them, motivated the You can bend them and bend them right on your donation form for sure. And they can play right there as your and then they could give right at that moment. That’s your best case scenario. Don’t Don’t make people click too many times. You’ll lose them, obviously. Or don’t just send them to you. A video off YouTube. That doesn’t provide them the opportunity to give

[00:12:32.17] spk_1:
that a call to action. Right. Andi, we’re talking End of your fundraising. So that called action is make a gift,

[00:12:38.26] spk_0:
Make a gift and yeah,

[00:12:40.48] spk_1:
mentioned fundraising, Many events. They’re a little more about that flesh. Shut out. What do these look like? How do we promote them? How do we get folks to come to them?

[00:14:50.34] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, just like obviously, with any event now in the in the virtual space, you can do it just as easily as this. Like you can hold a zoom call. You can provide folks links. Obviously. Zoom in any of these, you know, virtual. You know, Dylan, you want to provide security so that you’re not going to get spammed or you have too many other folks coming in. But if you send it out to your list or a segment after your list, you can also find this is an opportunity to say, Hey, my already active donors, I would like those folks to come to a special event. You could also make it sort of like a V i p kind of event or things like that, for for segments of your lips, like you’re high level donors or things like that, we could make it more personalized setting where smaller groups are coming together and having the opportunity to interact with each other. Lots of times, we we suggest, folks. Then hold a zoom in a conference style where you’re presenting and your attendees air and sort of listen Onley mode and you’re presenting content. And so the important pieces there are, you know, think about the message and you wanna put forth you obviously right, a full script. You’re doing lots of promotion again if you’re doing it in a very segmented way, you’re targeting those messages only just a smaller subsets of your list, or you could make it more broad, but you’re going to provide a secure log in for folks you’re going to then say, Who’s gonna be on that? Maybe maybe it’s just a now or two of, you know, thinking again. Highlights of the year. We want to really think you know folks who’ve turned out for us. We want to show some of the results. You’re putting together a little script, and you’re obviously building a message there of motivation, care, compassion, connection with your, you know, with your supporters and and providing throughout opportunities where you’re showing a link to give opportunities where you can again, like in bed. Some of these videos, later on a landing page of people weren’t able to attend and alive instance. And it’s all about compassion, first connection, understanding the importance of the work that you’re doing and just doubling down on the mission of your organization that work again. It’s still is still critical, but it’s really important to sort of just draft a script. Make sure you have, like if you’re gonna have key guests come in, you have them all and sort of that they’re in presenter mode. And so if you’re passing the baton, everybody knows when they’re speaking what they’re speaking about. You kind of drafted that all ahead of time and, you know, you could do run through. I highly recommend doing doing run throughs before you actually show up for a live event so that everybody knows sort of the cues and handoffs and all that and what’s gonna come next. And oftentimes people will put live, you know, snippets in the middle of prerecorded content, which helps sort of take the pressure off of, you know, needing to be live and speaking for the whole whole time. But usually an hour or two is plenty, and that’s all people really have to give, you know, a lot of times to attend some of these live events. I think people feel like they need to come up with, like, tons of content and tons of time. But mostly, we say, keep it short and sweet.

[00:16:43.65] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. Just this week, a friend got an extensive quote in Business Insider magazine. I asked him how he landed it. He had a relationship with the journalist the writer called him when he needed someone with recruiting expertise. Turn to will help you build journalist relationships like that so that journalists call you. That’s how solid the relationships are. Turn to specializes in working with nonprofits. One of the partners, Peter Panda Pento, was an editor at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They’re at turn hyphen two dot c o. Now back to end of year fundraising. I’m hearing folks are mhm. I don’t know if burned out is too strong, not burned out with it without, But I’ll use it getting burned out with screen time.

[00:17:50.74] spk_0:
Oh, yeah, you don’t Your everybody right now is and I just call it zoom fatigue. Even if you’re not using Zoom gonna hang out whatever urine screen fatigue, screen fatigue. So I would say the other piece there is sort of make it fun, you know, make it like, interesting. And like people have been having I’ve seen really fun like little parties where people are, you know, encouraging other people to sort of show up, dressed up like have your like, maybe make it a virtual holiday party and giving that kind of thing and sort of like, you know, you’re not doing a lot of going out right now anyway, so go out, but stay in and sort of like, make it, um, make it fun as you can and make it sort of party like or really again, it’s It’s a good opportunity to really think and be in a space of gratitude for the folks that have continued to show up for your organization through obviously, what’s very topsy turvy kind of year and just again reemphasize the work that you’re doing and it is to continue it.

[00:18:08.44] spk_1:
So let’s talk about the pandemic because that’s obviously still in full bloom and will be through the end of this year. We’re talking end of your fundraising s. Oh, you did mention being mawr compassionate. Softer What other? What other advice are you giving around messaging?

[00:18:16.94] spk_0:
So I think it’s an interesting thing right now as you’re planning this, if you think about hosting either just the message you’re going to do in your emails or if you’re going to do some of these sort of adding video content or even go to live, think about the timing and which is gonna happen to us. You’re going to do this messaging in what is probably gonna be a really extra hard time, because we’ve had maybe a little bit of a respite over the summer where you’ve actually been able to go outside and you’re your mental space is probably okay right now. But really be thinking about were months into then winter and really being enclosed, and it’s gonna be a double down. I’m a little.

[00:18:55.59] spk_1:
We’re talking about doing something in late November or early December,

[00:18:59.16] spk_0:
like think about what? That’s going

[00:19:00.66] spk_1:
to full month. So it’s full all of October and all of November away,

[00:19:52.14] spk_0:
right? So you’re already like, you’re like, I’m I’m, you know, feeling even, maybe a little bit. Like I think this is gonna be a hard winter for a lot of folks just because of, well, who knows what’s gonna happen? The election, that whole You know, what not, but because the pandemic isn’t going away and I think it’s probably going to see a bit of a surge again, as we do with, like, most flu like, it’s just one of those things you kind of just be really cognizant of, like how to think about again, my personalization. And again, this is where you could take take your your segmenting with your list very seriously and kind of say okay, great thes air folks that I’m gonna go maybe a little bit softer with my message, you know, because maybe they have been on my list that haven’t been as active. Think about ways you can sort of take your key mission elements and, you know, just maybe try toe, tweak it in a bit. Maybe that you haven’t before or just think about ways you can serve again, like personalized it or keep it, um, you know, try new hooks. Try new ways to help people think about the ways in which your work Think about what’s been happening with the organization over the course of the year during the pandemic and how you maybe have had thio toe alter what you do a little bit or tweak it a little bit because of the, you know, distanced space were in and really, you know, to find that a little bit better for folks or help people make the connection. Sometimes, obviously, people aren’t seeing maybe how your work is tied or has been affected by the pandemic. Highlight some of those things because I think

[00:20:37.55] spk_1:
vulnerability like, don’t be afraid to be vulnerable.

[00:21:11.04] spk_0:
Absolutely, absolutely, like differentiate your messaging by. Here’s how we’ve been impacted. We’re right here with you were having struggles to don’t over downplay like doomsday and messaging, but sort of just be up. Be honest. We all been like we’ve been struggling. This has been a hard year for everybody. Here’s how it’s impacted us and put that out there because I think one of the things that’s been most helpful or multiple most interesting for us. Working with org’s is that vulnerable space. The don’t try to put on the sheen of Like Everything’s fine. It’s all gonna be OK. It’s OK to sort of say, you know that you’re worried and and the impact that is actually having on your work or how you had to

[00:21:24.25] spk_1:
appreciate that That that honesty absolutely openness again vulnerability.

[00:21:29.64] spk_0:
Its key. I think so. The compassion with you know, the this key. But I think the vulnerability is probably even a better word. Thio

[00:21:36.97] spk_1:
genuine. It shows that you’re genuine, sincere, absolutely human,

[00:21:41.55] spk_0:
E I mean, that’s

[00:21:43.29] spk_1:
lose our humanity over

[00:21:44.49] spk_0:
this. This is the space where the humanity I feel like actually Muchas there zoom fatigue. It actually, for me is help sort of bring a lot of humanness into people that I’ve had a very professional relationship with in the past, where you’ve actually been like Oh, you know, my kids were running through or, you know X is happening you’ve got contractors in your house, you This is it. This is life. This is who we are and really leading with that human to human connection. We see people in

[00:22:13.08] spk_1:
their kitchens. Absolutely. I saw someone in a in a bedroom because the kids were out in the other. The other parts of the house. I think that’s why should. She was in her

[00:22:49.34] spk_0:
best, like everyone’s trying. And so you’re like carving out your own. You’re trying to carve out a space to do your work. Be a partner, be a parent with all the different, be a daughter’s. You’ve got multi generations and houses. You’ve got all sorts of things happening, and it’s it’s showing in a way right now, which I think is actually quite beautiful on Dhe. I think if organizations can really lead with that space, I think that’s where people feel. The connection is what drives people to give. I mean more than sort of like Certainly it’s the impact that organization, but it’s like the people doing the messaging connect with the people who are, you know, driven to give. That’s you’ve got those key emotional moments that drive the giving and so trying to find those and again leading with that humanness vulnerability. It’s critical, critical right now more than anything, and people are starving for riel connection. And not just these sort of like Okay, great here these Polish, you know, webinars and hear all these great glassy materials. It’s like actually, we really, like yearn for the person connection that human connection is critical. So I would say, Definitely lead with that.

[00:23:39.04] spk_1:
I’ve always thought you know you just because you just referred to glossy pieces. I’ve always thought that sincerity Trump’s production values

[00:23:47.84] spk_0:
I don’t

[00:24:06.22] spk_1:
have toe have pro mix and lighting and pro video someone sincere with a with a phone in their hand, shooting themselves for 30 60 90 seconds with a heart felt thank you. Or here’s our need type message that I think that trumps all the whatever.

[00:24:31.64] spk_0:
I think that’s actually a good sort of also like kind of lesson or take away is like, don’t be afraid to try some of these things because you don’t have the right equipment or you don’t know what you’re doing, or it’s gonna feel like you’re gonna mess up well, good do. And don’t worry about having out like the best microphone or the lighting isn’t right or you’re gonna Look, you don’t have, like, look perfect. You know, you’re what, like, this is absolutely time. Just let all that stuff go. I think maybe before you’d have been maybe trying to be, like, put together a more polished video piece or something like that and have to have higher production team or something like that to do it. And I think a lot of times in the past you have folks would be really afraid to be like I can’t do like a video piece like, I I don’t I can’t afford to do that or whatever we get. You can, because you just have your you zoom or your Google meat or whatever, do it yourself or your phone exactly like you can do it. And it’s still with that connection that is going to drive people to give the glossy production piece like Not that you can’t. There isn’t a space for doing that at some point, but it’s not critical. It’s certainly not needed, and I think it doesn’t resonate as well,

[00:25:14.04] spk_1:
so you could have ah piece from your CEO or executive director? Totally. We’re talking about embedding email before embedding video email before, it could be something simple like that,

[00:25:23.54] spk_0:
Absolutely. And I honestly think that, like one of the things we’ve been trying to do a firefly is actually, I love executive directors. You’re amazing. You’re keeping it all together and you run all that stuff. But honestly, it’s the highlighting of the more of the front line staff. And the people like doing the dirty work. Sometimes you just want to be like those of the stories that, actually again, sometimes are told is often. And there’s sort of these bigger, yeah, kind of impact pieces. But if you just talk about you know Jane Smith, why is she does the work that she does? Why is she motivated? Even, you know, like, why does she show up every day and do the work that your organization,

[00:25:58.89] spk_1:
how your gift, how your gift helps me Jane do that work

[00:26:10.64] spk_0:
right? Exactly like that’s like, Yeah, I mean, I’ve had we’ve had some of the most amazing conversations with folks who are just why they’re motivated to do the work that they do every day at your organization is probably some of the most compelling content that you have, in addition to, obviously, the real life story of the impact you know, getting into and again like, maybe that’s the other pieces you’re highlighting if you have ah, direct impact type of organization, a story right from, you know, some family that’s been impacted by the work that you do, and they could tell their story. It’s again that getting as personal and real right now as possible is the motivator. Toe giving, I think the connection there.

[00:26:46.94] spk_1:
What about giving folks options? How much to give?

[00:28:41.24] spk_0:
Yeah. And again, this is again depending on how much data you have, your systems and how well you can segment, I’d say one of the biggest mistakes we also see people doing is not segmenting and giving folks, uh, different giving levels. Um, if someone has given, you know, $50 before, certainly starting them at 100 or something like motivate them like push them to go higher. Someone’s already given you 250 bucks. Start them, you know, with the form that says 500. I mean, like, really sort of try toe, motivate something, but you don’t want to give somebody, Obviously the $50 donor. Don’t drive them to the $500 form. So you do need to have a little bit of that segmentation. So this education and if you can’t or don’t know how to do dynamic gift arrays on your form based on, you know, don’t be afraid to even just say I’m going to create two or three forms and I’m gonna segment and send people toe for, maybe, or see if you can’t do in a dynamic format, don’t be afraid to at least try and give folks those different options. It is. There’s a million statistics out there about when you drive someone to a form that is higher, giving levels they will give more. They will. I mean, they just will. So go there, Get you know, mind your data. Find a way. Do whatever tools you have, find a way toe pull out and segment. You’re either non donors and drive them into at least an entry level of, you know, $25 starting going up or your mid level and your high level and drive them to the appropriate forms with the right giving levels don’t just sort of send them to that one generic form. You will see that a result with just a little bit of extra work to segment, um, and drive to the appropriate form.

[00:28:42.91] spk_1:
Absolutely. What about asking to make it monthly?

[00:30:06.74] spk_0:
Yeah, this is a moment where I think there’s always a little bit of tension for folks. Certainly, we want to just get the gift. Um, if you’ve got folks who and like, you know, there’s different, different times of the year that I think you could try to do one time to sustainer campaigns. Some argue very much. The end of your isn’t the time to try toe to do that because you’re just trying again, like get these, you know, mortgage gifts at the end of the year. But I find that if you could move into the that, the mid mid level donors that have been consistently will give, like a gift here, a gift there. This is a perfectly good time. Thio sort of turn it into sustain Ear’s for the following year. Again, if somebody is even giving you into the hundreds or thousands of dollars before do the math or again If you have the abilities with your tools toe, have it do it dynamically for you. Make it just so that that they become a recurring giver. They’re obviously going to get Mawr, but it feels like less impactful for them every month. Oh, you’re just going to give $20 a month? Oh, and you know what that’s gonna be because they’ve only given you. Maybe they’ve given you 100 $50 before as a one time gift or a couple $100. But if you turn it into that Oh, if you could just give us $25 a month, that’s equal to you know, three coffees or whatever. Um, obviously, we all know that the how the math works. So But I would say, Don’t try to take your you know, if somebody’s Onley giving you once before or those types of done again, it’s all about the data that you can collect a one time donor on Lee. Obviously, they’re gonna be less likely to just suddenly turn into a sustainer. But those folks who have given you a gift here and a gift there, or they give you every time it end of year. But that’s the only time they give those air really key people to sort of zero in on and say those air critical and more likely to turn into sustain er’s attend

[00:30:39.10] spk_1:
up here. So you do it for the right folks. And then it’s not likely that you’ll see a reduced end of your performance by asking, Would you like to make it monthly?

[00:30:50.94] spk_0:
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s your again. They have to look at your different data points. So if you say well, they would have given me $250 as a one time gift it in a year. But now I’ve turned them into a you know, a $40 month sustainer. Obviously you’re getting you’re getting $40 rather than 250 at end of year. But obviously the impact for your organization is much greater. Oh, yeah, you have to sort of. You have to look at the data carefully so you don’t just go about. My overall gifts might have decreased slightly, but my overall long lasting impact of the organization has certainly gone up.

[00:32:57.64] spk_1:
It’s time for tony stick to planned giving accelerator. I told you last week we extended the first class. So the first class is gonna start January 1st 2021. This is a brain dump. Everything I know about how to start and grow your plan giving program, I am going to teach to plan giving accelerator members. You want to get your plan giving program started in 2021. You’ve heard me talk about this so many times on I’m not done. By the way. Uh, if you don’t have a plan giving fundraising program, you can start in 2021. You don’t need a lot of money. You don’t need expertise. This is not only for your wealthy donors. It’s not gonna hurt your other forms of fundraising. All these air myths that people use to make a plan giving this black box this complex thing that they don’t think they can do on their own. You can. I’m gonna teach you how become a member of planned giving accelerator. You got to get everything I know about how to get this program started in 2021. All the information you need more detail and how to join is that planned giving accelerator dot com. I hope you’re going to join me, that is, tony. Stick to Let’s return, shall we to end of year fundraising with Jen Fraser. Just the importance of segmentation a couple of times.

[00:34:21.14] spk_0:
Yeah, it’s critical, and I know that we work with a lot of organizations, and that’s a burden or a barrier. It’s like this. There’s a There’s a level of effort there, that a lot of work. They’re still just sort of sending the same message. So their whole list and, you know, you get mixed results with that, I’d say not Not effective, you know, really, Overall is a strategy. So even simple segmentation that was like, You’ve never given before you’ve given once or you’ve given multiple times like almost every tool out there can allow you to segment. At least that was, you know, those kind of big buckets, Um, and in the messaging that you’re sending, obviously is a lot more of a gratitude stance, even with non donors. Just thanks for being a part of our community and that sort of stuff. You can still find ways toe. Thank people for being on your list the type of gratitude that you then put to a previous donor is much greater. So you can certainly be like Thank you for this. Think if you’re a lifetime giving amount, Thank you for, you know, also, um if they if you also know they’ve done other things, they volunteer. They’ve come to events like again. The more data you can find out about and the more personalized those messages can become, the better. You know, the stronger the connection you’re gonna make with that individual on the receiving end of that, the more they’re going to be motivated to go. Oh, they this organization cares. They’re paying attention. They know that I’m involved. They know what I dio and they care.

[00:34:36.16] spk_1:
They’re acknowledging there, thanking their grateful thinking before right?

[00:34:39.56] spk_0:

[00:34:59.84] spk_1:
gratitude. Yeah, there’s back to humanity. Gratitude, gratitude, compassion, humanity. All those things really should often be in our fundraising or always be always be not just often always be in our fundraising, but like I hear so many times we will each heard 1000 times in the past six months so much more now because of the pandemic, because folks aer isolated, reach out and be that much more humane.

[00:35:10.68] spk_0:
Compassionate? What The compassion

[00:35:14.49] spk_1:
heartfelt, but I can’t think of any other adjectives.

[00:37:15.73] spk_0:
Well, those were all perfect on. That’s like, you know, and I would suggest that you do some sit down, you know, even just your team or you can, you know, get some messaging help from folks or whatever, but just sit and marinate in that space for a minute. Like, really think about your messaging. Really think about being in that compassion and vulnerable all those operatives you just listed in that space and thinking, What do I want to hear? You know, from organized Because obviously everybody that works and non profit almost I would say 100% of them give. It’s not their non profits. So think about what motivates you when you receive a message and, you know, really kind of double down on that and say, Gosh, alright, and spend the time if you can. Um, you know, if you’re starting now very much like, what can we do? How can we pull the data out? How can we learn more? How could we segment better? Um, and taking that time, we’ll have, um, really, really big impact on the outcomes that you’ll see in the giving space in the giving time because it’s a again, the more personalized, the better that connection, the deeper and the more you can you not be in a space of gratitude, I think is critical. Um, and it doesn’t have to be this huge burden so it can. Even even simple segments can make a big difference and taking people have given over. You know, you have to look at your giving and figure out where your thresholds or I won’t and say, Oh, these are the exact dollar amounts where you want a segment. But you look at your overall giving and you find where those breaking points are and where you really like, have a smaller again. How do you really, really, really pamper some of those high dollar donors and really show how much you care? What can you get back to them? Are there things that you can actually physically get back? Are you Are you sending gifts back or what? Do you? Are you sending stuff in the mail? What is it that helps really differentiate and show those folks, um, you know that you care in your

[00:37:22.94] spk_1:
That’s where a personalized video could be outstanding, like a or one of the other companies that does that, you know, Right? Snippets. 30 seconds a minute on the fly. You You’re walking Well, I walk on the beach, You’re walking on the beach. That’s the first thing I think of. But you’re walking on the sidewalk. Wherever you are. You can shoot a quick video to thank someone for a gift that just came in.

[00:39:01.72] spk_0:
Ah, 100%. That’s actually profit one. I didn’t actually talk about that. It’s That’s the follow up and the next steps. So you know, you get the gift. Amazing. What does that immediate auto think? Look like? I think a great opportunity. There is also. Yeah, Do maybe a video there or again. That’s that, Like viral piece, obviously. Then how can we help you really be motivated to just tell a couple of their friends about the work that we’re doing? Maybe they’re not even on our list. Maybe they’re not obviously gonna get incorporated into your end of your giving. But how can we then take this as an opportunity to grow your just overall this size? And then just to double down on that anybody that’s new, that’s coming into your list during this as a space. How are you welcoming them into your organization? IDEO personalized quick videos from again BDs or other staff? Or again, like the folks who are impacted by your work. Those all really bring a new person onto your list s so much more deeply, quickly. And then if they come in and they’re new, understanding that segment if they come in new in the in the next, you know 90 days how your messaging them and welcoming them and easing them into, you know, a gift. Ask like you don’t again like First Message like Out of the Gate. Even though it’s end of year, it’s suppressing the right folks to as well, a segmenting the right folks to the right message to. So there are. There are several different streams that happened in there, and certainly these tools that have really great marketing automation set up make it that much easier for folks You’re not, and they’re trying to do like a ton of like, re segmenting and re personalizing and data manually work on the automation pieces, understanding when folks are coming in and the different ways they’re coming in. And if they do that first gas, what’s the next? What’s the next and next? And

[00:39:30.44] spk_1:
so are there some tools that you like that you can

[00:41:30.91] spk_0:
recommend? You know, pretty much all the tools Right now, I think male Champ has good stuff for folks were just looking for a pretty, you know, good industry point for messaging. We use all use the market animation that’s involved, the every action and engaging network tools are great because then they just high right into those you know, donation forums that you make as well in the system. Obviously, um, even illuminate There’s great messaging automation. There’s so many email marketing tools out there, but those are the ones we work in the most. I would say that we find the majority of our clients, um, in and I’ve really Then, you know, I’m surprised I’m not surprised. It it feels like a lot and then be like, Oh, I gotta, you know, turn and, like turn into a data scientist almost to figure out how to, like, really do effective segmenting and messaging. But there are some simple automation is you can set up in these tools to really help take the burden off of you as well. And you can set a bunch of this stuff up, obviously a lot of time. So when the frantic nous of the like giving Tuesday to end of Your madness happens, most of those were already set and you have the message in there. Obviously, it’s not like a big surprise right now. You should have two sets of messages going on right now. Outcome A from the election and outcome. Be like Just do yourself a favor and right both sets now because you don’t wanna have to be scrambling. So many people in 2016 had all their yea Hillary messages already written. I hadn’t even thought that it would go the other way and let were literally scrambling. I don’t want to think about the other outcome, but unfortunately we have to say that’s a possibility. So do yourself a favor and just be ready with, you know, both both sets of messaging ahead of time so you can, you know, push the right one forward and you’re not scrambling at that moment to come up with the right messaging in that. What could be pretty devastating outcome.

[00:41:33.36] spk_1:
So so one letter has a picture of rays of sunshine. Another one. Another one has a dumpster fire

[00:41:40.26] spk_0:
on even then,

[00:41:42.23] spk_1:
conflagration in

[00:41:43.25] spk_0:
a sea. Hard as that is, it is challenging. And as it is, trying not to be overly doomsday if that with a bad outcome on the election end of your giving this again still gonna happen and still critical, and it actually might be even. Sadly, it’s sometimes the bad outcomes or more motivator. But either don’t try to capitalize it on too much and don’t try to be too dooms days. You kind of have to weave, and they’re in the middle between not like the world is on fire and we’re dying. We have to give and, you know, organizations or

[00:42:14.95] spk_1:
and let’s be egalitarian because I I don’t do politics on plan Giving that profit on non profit radio. Maybe doomsday scenario for you is a Biden,

[00:42:24.90] spk_0:
Absolutely. I mean, absolutely, that’s what they either outcome. You have to be ready with how your organization is kind of position, either outcome, So you have to start it just be like whatever that means for your organization. The outcome will obviously have a big impact. So just be ready with both sets. That’s Yeah, keeping it, you know, keeping it neutral. Just be ready in whatever that looks like for your

[00:42:50.20] spk_1:
order testing. Testing? How do we know if we’re doing these things correctly? How do we test different outcomes? What should

[00:45:26.99] spk_0:
we be testing? There is a lot, you know that you can still dio I’d say probably one of the most critical is, um, you know, in the midst of it, you could test subject lines because that’s obviously the first thing that’s gonna motivate somebody to get to hope it. And obviously, then there’s the subject line. Testing Almost every tool obviously has a B testing. And in the midst of it, you can send out and again when you are making your plan and your campaign calendar for the year, you build in some time for some testing and almost all these tools within take the winter and push push the winter to the fullest. Um, the other big one is, um, testing your landing pages and or you’re giving pages. So if you’re not familiar with something like Google optimized or something like that, take the opportunity now ahead of time and put a form A and form be could be things like one column or two column or one step or multi step different language. Different fields that you show that air default or required. There’s lots of different ways you could test and optimize your form again. Maybe you could start testing and seeing how a form with a video or without how those air resonating even ahead of time and take that information and put that into the equation of saying, Okay, great, you know, with our list, because every list an audience does perform a little bit differently. You can obviously go look and see what industry trends air showing. Um, there’s been big swings of, like, the one step form or the multi step form or the whatever, but you can try some of those, but I find that actually, what’s even more than the one step of the multi stuff? You could kind of get that down, but then within that you’ve got messaging in a tree fields on dhe, just overall. Um, you know all those conversion rates, you see what’s happening for, like abandonment rates and that sort of stuff. So looking to see which of those air happening on your form, so and then you know, beyond the subject line, Um, the message, content and layout itself. You could test, you know, more of a. I think we always, you know, we tend to move towards less content is better, But again, every every list performed a little differently. So just think about like Mawr images, fewer images, less words, more words in your messages themselves. You contest that now you know, do a lot of baby against that and then the follow up again, like we just talked about through that immediate think once you do get a conversion, what what’s the best thing to put in that next message? Should it be, tell friends, should it be like test that like what? What’s pressing for people? Once they do make a gift or do do a particular action? Always test that the next action, because that’s the most critical moment in the life cycle. With that, with that, you know, supporter, they’re already there. They’re motivated. You’ve got their attention. What’s that? Next thing you’re asking is you test that for

[00:46:30.28] spk_1:
sure. Time for our last break. Dot drives dot drives Engagement dot drives relationships dot drives is the simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. If you want to move the needle on your prospect and donor relationships, get the free demo for you because you’re a listener. There’s also a free month. It’s all at the listener landing page we’ve got but loads more time for end of year fundraising. General, we’re testing some of these things like subject line or videos, message content. What’s the minimum size test like if you’re sending If your segment is 25 people,

[00:46:42.68] spk_0:
well, then you’re

[00:46:44.87] spk_1:
what What makes a legitimate test?

[00:46:47.71] spk_0:
I mean, I was a Yeah, depending on the size of your list, Um, I would like to get 10% you know, 5 to 10% at least of your list as a test. But, you know, you would like to ideally have, you know, again, depending on the size of your list, if you’re only gonna have under 100 or something like that, any any segment. Generally speaking, you’re not gonna have statistically significant amounts in there. Let’s say you have, but that’s okay. I mean, I would still say test But you have to know that there are There’s a break off point where you’re not going toe have, like, really statistically significant data. But you’re going to say, Hey, this this is the data I’ve got. I’m gonna run with it even if it wouldn’t pass the stats test, you know, test are

[00:47:32.22] spk_1:
it’s worth testing. Even a segment

[00:47:35.23] spk_0:
of sizes. Small. I would test, but I would say try to take a least a 5% sample. Um, I like a 10. You know, at least a 10% sample of your list and do run out side by side and then give it. You know, I would like to also give it. I give it 12 hours, you know, to look through like, how often people open 2012 to 24 hours before you then blast the winner to the remainder of the list

[00:48:01.36] spk_1:
for the other 90 to 95%. Yeah, okay. But you prefer 10% test.

[00:48:06.09] spk_0:
I mean, I would say you want again. Then like have a 5% getting a 5% right. 10% of your list, get a B, and then they get the winner to the remaining 90

[00:48:21.27] spk_1:
percent remaining. 90%? Yeah. All right. We got some time left. What? What? Haven’t asked about what? Haven’t you talked about that?

[00:48:26.37] spk_0:
You know, I would say, You know, I think there’s a lot of content in here. Maybe just sort of like a quick recap of sort of the Yeah, well,

[00:48:35.52] spk_1:
radio is jam packed with information that

[00:48:39.99] spk_0:
people like. Well, I’m talking. Well,

[00:48:41.54] spk_1:
they that’s podcast is ideal. Go back. Listen again.

[00:48:44.97] spk_0:
Listen again. You can always go back and

[00:48:47.10] spk_1:
take notes for your office to have discussions. Uh,

[00:48:54.91] spk_0:
tomorrow Tomorrow. It’s already remember September

[00:48:55.45] spk_1:
releasing this the week of September 28th

[00:48:58.33] spk_0:
grade. So fourth quarter is a week away. Yeah, I would say also, I was just pointing. Maybe a couple of resource is for people. If people are not familiar with the M N R benchmarks study that comes out every year and are seminar, so their website

[00:49:17.10] spk_1:
Hold on, hold on. Are you saying the letters m and r like Mike November Romeo or M

[00:49:26.17] spk_0:
and R and are

[00:49:26.84] spk_1:
thank you

[00:50:21.76] spk_0:
like Mike and Ross eso my NMR. But their website is m r s dot com, because it’s m and our Strategic Service’s, but it’s M R s s dot com. They have a benchmarks study that they put out every year. That is like a data playhouse, like they have. They get data from not just their clients. They put out these big, huge surveys and they bring in all this data and they analyze giving trends to the million degree, their charts and graphs and data and insights and all these things that you could go in. Look for your particular verticals. You can look for your list size. You can look for outcomes. They look at all sorts of factors along the giving spectrum and sort of say, here are basically industry trends across all these non profit. So if you’re looking for, you know, advice, like, what are other people seeing what air? You know, folks, you know, best practices that they’ve seen that great results. It is chock full of data in there. I mean, there are a million of these, like my favorite ones come from seminar. I think black would actually puts out a great um, it’s again like a giving guide. Neon serum has a great giving guide There, just lots of, um industry kind of stalwarts in the in the space that have these guys where you could go read and get information and sort of kind of, you know, put more arsenal into your I don’t like to use military or, you know, gun references, but it’s like putting more information into your tool belt. I’m saying, Great, I’ve got more tools. I’ve got more data and more thoughts about how I’m going to structure my end of your campaign to make it successful.

[00:51:14.27] spk_1:
Non neon C R m A ZX Well, as blackboard

[00:51:18.98] spk_0:
black bodies have one good ones

[00:51:21.34] spk_1:
s dot com

[00:51:28.06] spk_0:
like those are the three biggies. I would probably throw out there, um and really thought

[00:51:29.99] spk_1:
the platforms that you mentioned for email or and segmentation and personalization you mentioned mail chimp, Was it every action illuminate is that the

[00:51:54.27] spk_0:
41 illuminate illuminate engaging networks every action, you know, those were sort of the big ones that we have again. And also then I just mentioned neon neon is a great platform as well. Platform. So there are several, um, you know

[00:51:59.33] spk_1:
e take you off your Oh, no, you wrap up, but

[00:52:43.70] spk_0:
no, no, no. Those are good. I was gonna say that one’s r e just hammering home sort of again like that. The vulnerability and humanity and the messaging. I would say, if anything, just don’t use your standard messaging this year. That’s probably my biggest take away is really take a look at your messaging, your vulnerability, your positioning shiny impact being and that kind of, oh, bananas vulnerable self testing. Why you can at this point, um, make the time to do some testing. There’s nothing worse than also, then sitting out great messages and having them land on really kind of non high conversion landing pages. I guess the biggest thing I haven’t mentioned yet, which I’ll really throw it is mobile, mobile, mobile.

[00:52:52.30] spk_1:
Of course, it’s like it’s very you need to be mobile optimized by now,

[00:52:59.23] spk_0:
it bears repeating please. Almost. It’s like really start with your forms on a website on a phone, like something

[00:53:05.21] spk_1:
like 75% of emails or opened on a mobile device.

[00:53:08.41] spk_0:
At least I think that number every time I see one, it just keeps going

[00:53:12.38] spk_1:
going up. Maybe tonight

[00:54:54.34] spk_0:
eso your email and that landing page. Like those two pieces, I can’t stress enough because you’re gonna ask You’re gonna do video. Make sure that video, you know, everything is all former. Just test the heck out of everything like you really need to be like and as much as you can you can you use like, an email on acid to test on multiple platforms. So in multiple devices, because you know, email on acid as a tool that lets you as a non profit push your message and and those landing pages and, well, the emails on email and acid Google after my different operating systems. But a email on acid will show you what your email looks like on an iPhone 10 on iPhone six on an android, this on a galaxy, blah, blah, blah. And then you can say, Oh, because it looks amazing on your iPhone, but looks like garbage, you know, on the Samsung. Well, you know, you have thio look across all the devices and then you go Or are they reading this in Gmail? Are they reading this and outlook? Are they reading this and whatever So it’s email clients and vices. Let me tell you, that alone will keep you busy. Just testing on acid. Yeah. Email on acid. I mean, really, it’s crazy the amount of information that you see, and then you have to go back into the code and tweet like what has been quite a bit of this time. Like when you change your design, you change your layout, radio, you have to take it. You have to take into account the operating system and the device that somebody, the email client and then the device that somebody is looking because, um, it’s a crazy world there. That’s that’s probably the hardest part of making sure your emails look well. The landing pages are less taxing, but still take into account the operating system and the device.

[00:55:14.74] spk_1:
All right. Thank you. I wanna ask. I want to close by asking you what? What fun thing you have put together lately? You said you’d like to put together planning budgets. Ikea furniture. What have you done? Fun put together.

[00:55:20.44] spk_0:
I’m actually right now in the midst of redesigning my kitchen so that

[00:55:24.76] spk_1:
you have big contractors stuff going on.

[00:55:27.34] spk_0:
Well, I’m in the planning phase.

[00:55:29.32] spk_1:
Design you design. Okay, I’ve

[00:55:31.04] spk_0:
got a phase one right now where I’m gonna be heading to Ikea pretty soon and doing a pantry and sort of a built in area around my refrigerator. That’s my That’s my next one project and having answered, that’s my face one. So that’s just sort of blend a little bit with some of the existing kitchen before I can then carry that piece forwarding to the other cabinets and things like that.

[00:55:53.49] spk_1:
You ever looked to Container Store for organization stuff? Container store?

[00:55:58.94] spk_0:
I do love that. I kind of get lost in the madness of the container store because I love organizing, like in compartments and things like that. One of my favorite.

[00:56:08.21] spk_1:
Work it into your kitchen. I could door hanger or something.

[00:56:11.63] spk_0:
E I’ll see. Yes, it’s combination. If you have the E. K. F writes the structure and then in the container store gives you like all those storage options. But

[00:57:23.63] spk_1:
like all right, thank you very much. Jen. The company is that firefly partners dot com And she is, of course, at Jen at Firefly. Yeah, not Jenna T. Firefly. Next week, more from 20 NTC. Most likely if you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives raise more money changed more lives for a free demo and a free first month. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein It with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be

[00:57:27.33] spk_0:
great. Thank you, Thank you so much.

Nonprofit Radio for August 2, 2019: Inconceivable: That Metric Does Not Mean What You Think It Means & Google Analytics & Google Optimize

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Kirk Schmidt & Wes Moon: Inconceivable: That Metric Does Not Mean What You Think It Means
Take a fresh look at fundraising metrics with Kirk Schmidt and Wes Moon. Kirk is with STARS and Wes is from Wisely. (Recorded at 19NTC)

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Transcript for 451_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190802.mp3 Processed on: 2019-08-03T15:14:35.193Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…08…451_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190802.mp3.941763266.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/08/451_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190802.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, what an incredible 450th show last week. I hope you were with us. I’ll say more in Tony’s Take Two, and I’m glad you’re with me today. I’d be thrown into up pal Mona Riotous if I saw that you missed today’s show. Inconceivable that metric does not mean what you think it means. Take a fresh look at fund-raising Metrics with Kirk Smith and West Moon. Kirk is with stars, and West is from wisely that’s recorded at 19 and T C. And Google Analytics and Google optimize learned terminology and best practices for these applications. Should you trust your data? Which reports do you need? What about testing and optimizing? We cover it all with another 19 ntcdinosaur Colleen Campbell from Firefly Partners and Jeannie McCabe at the Center for Reproductive Rights. Attorney Steak, too. 450th recap were sponsored by Wagner, C. P A’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Wepner cps dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Finale Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits tony dot m, a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here are Kirk Schmidt and West Moon Inconceivable Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 1990 si. You know what that is? That’s a 2019 non-profit technology conference where at the convention center in Portland, Oregon, and this is ntcdinosaur Bridge is non-profit radio coverage and all of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at ActBlue Free fund-raising Tools help non-profits Macon Impact. My guests now are Kirk Schmidt, director of Foundation Analytics Systems and operations at Stars. And he’s seated next to me and West Moon co founder and C e o c 00 of wisely welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Kurt West. Welcome years. Some session topic is inconceivable. That metric does not mean what you think it means. Of course, with the first thing we need to find out is who is the Princess Bride Fan? Who is that? Both of us. Both of you. All right. Top five movie for both of us. Top five. Okay. Okay. Um Of course, inconceivable is Now. What? What’s the name of the Wallace Shawn character? Who says Inconceivable all the time? What? Zini, Vizzini, Vizzini. He’s the bad guy. And Mandy Patinkin is Inigo Montoya. And he says, I don’t I don’t think that word means what you think it means. Is that Do I have that right? Is it? Yes. Okay. In concert. I mean, I know that’s where it’s from. Did I say the line correctly? Yes, but the But the line he’s most most famous for is my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. That’s right. He’s looking for the man with six fingers on his right hand. Who’s, you know, Christopher Guest? What’s that character’s name? What’s that? Was Christopher Guest character’s name? Yeah, the six fingered swordsman. Yeah. No name in my mind here. God. Five. You can’t remember. I can name all the top I can have. The six fingered man. Yeah. No, he’s got a name. I think it does. Because the prince the prince calls and doesn’t call him six fingered man. Prince called him. All right. Could be I am Devi that Thank you. Wait. Okay. We can have that by the end. All right. Inconceivable that metric doesn’t mean when you think it means. Um, Wes, I like to start furthest away. Why do we need this topic? Why do we need this session? Um, metrics which drive a lot of decision making in charities across the country are used improperly. Metrics are used improperly. OK, Quite often. So you have. You have a metric, uh, that tells you something. And if you don’t understand how that’s being used, it is going to be used incorrectly. Context matters. Okay, West. Anything? I’m sorry you want I’m sorry, Kirk. Anything you want to add to that? No, I think really, The what we’re trying to do is advance the sector past metrics that have been used for decades. Two things that are more robust and Maur accurately reflect what we’re trying to do with it, which is decision making to better fundrasing. Okay, so tradition is often a mistake made more than once. Right? Okay. What is your shorts? A T shirt related to this topic. My shirts wearing a T shirt for those who don’t have the benefit of the video wearing a T shirt. What’s the context of the shirt. So So it’s Ah, it’s a little data joke. And it says there’s two types of people in this world. Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. OK, that’s clever. All right, way have an answer to the president. Because the characters Ruben Ruben Wright Ruegen. Okay, I’m top five for both of you. Neither one knew. Count. I don’t think I knew that wasn’t an all right. All right, All right. Um okay, so we need to take a fresh look at fund-raising metrics. There’s a lot of mistakes being made. We need to correct things. Can we go into detail about what some of these mistakes are? I’m sure we can. Sure. So So when we get started, when we did this talk, I mean, I mean, part of it was really to find out what individuals in the audience tend to measure and really talk about those measurements and whether the worthwhile. But of course, we had our own examples. Top one being average gift. Average gift is one of those metrics that is used everywhere. And it is quite often an incorrect measure For most of the things that we try to use it for okay. Is that deeper than because averages skewed by out liars that I mean, that’s the main reason, right? So So because of the out liars, we’re using that. But But then you know where you would go to medium gift? That’s right, Median. Or you know that we talked about other ones, like trimming the average or using a winterized average way. Got jog in jail in radio for sure. You got to find this so so winterized average effectively. What you’re doing is you’re taking an outlier value. Um, and you’re you’re winterizing it. Basically, what you’re doing is you’re saying so. So take $500 for example, anything over $500 you now count as $500. So you’re taking the average and you’re basically acknowledging that, Yes, there are major gifts, but I don’t know what those major gifts they’re gonna be year to year. So you’re including them because they’re important account. But you’re not including the size of that. Yeah, the magnet, right. Counting them as a data point. Correct. And how do you Is it too technical to explain how you decide at what point you cut off and start wins arising. There are a lot of different ways, some, some arm or robust statistical means. Some could be just intuition going. You know, we’re just get cut this off in 1000. But either way, you feel that’s more accurate than average. Absolutely gift. Absolutely. Okay. It’s certainly more predictive on when you think about average gift. Uh, one of the reasons why we really care about it is, let’s say you, as a fundraiser, are being asked to raise average, get by 10%. There’s a couple ways you can go. You get one astronomically large gift and be done so that way. And we like, we like to call it the Brute Force method, which is under the Giant with a a big rock. He’s gonna he’s gonna course one person to make one large gift. Okay, Another way to do it would be to get your entire cohort to increase the size of their gift by just 10% and we call it the masterful way on, and we’re you know, that’s that sword play. The last way isn’t good for a charity. And if you took all your small donors and just eliminated them from your program. You’re giving up a lot of money. Your average would rise substantially. Hit those low wallet that low wallet. Quadrant him out. Eliminate the Miss donorsearch way. Call that the inconceivable method Inconceivable met the inconceivable method. But you know where we see this and fund-raising is stuff. Did you raise the average gift? Yes, I also saved money and direct mail. That’s right, well, and we see it quite often with retention rate, right, like there will be organizations that try to raise retention rate. And the inconceivable method of doing that is to cut off acquisition. It’s time for a break. Wagner C. P A’s. They’ve got another free webinar. On August 6th. It’s developing high impact grants. Improved your grants, we search and writing. You’ll find it at Wagner cps dot com. Click Resource Is and upcoming events. Now that’s only a couple of days away. I know that you’ll probably miss it live, so watch the archive. Wagner cps dot com Quick resource is and recorded events Now back to inconceivable. That metric does not mean what you think it means. Okay, I’m sorry. I’m hearing this for the first time. Say that again. I know it’s simple, but you got to say it again. So if you want to raise your retention rate, we know the first time ever. Really low retention. So cut off the equity. We know it’s only 25%. Yeah. Stop inquiry. Right? And so is that the right thing to be measuring fundraisers on? Okay. And fundraisers are literally measured on that. Yeah. Yeah, attention. Okay, what’s better than what we identified? What is better than retention rate? It’s not necessarily what’s better, but it’s It’s more about segmentation or or developing cohorts. Right? So we do want to measure first year donors separately from the rest of your database, and you might even want to separate further in terms of multi use your donors, those who are lapsed so on so forth. Okay, okay. This is fun. This is fun. Let’s identify some or another one that’s miserable. Been around too long. Well, not not valuable. Well, part of the problem, too, with some of these is Sometimes they were put in in other formulas for other metrics. So we talked about lifetime valuers estimated lifetime value S o f p fund-raising effective in this project defines estimated lifetime value a very particular way, and it uses average gift in the numerator. And it uses the attrition rate, which is based on your attention rate in the denominator. So and so So, basically, you’re finishing This one is bad. So So you’re overestimating your average gift, right? Because because of what we talked about before and you’re underestimating your attrition because you’re not counting your first your donors and so your lifetime value looks really big. And the problem is, when you’re using that to decide whether you want to acquire Donor comparing it to the donor acquisition cost, you’re going to believe you’re going to make more money than you will. In fact, you could believe that you’re making money and you are, in fact, losing money. Yeah, Yeah, it’s inconceivable, right? Exactly. All right. All right. This is very good. Um, let’s not. Yeah, um, we got others. Another exam is just what the session was. Examples between you brought some and the audience contributed. Was that the whole session? Effectively? I mean, we started talking about metrics in general, on dhe some good, some Something’s no like the importance of knowing the difference between the leading metric and a lagging metric. All right, we have to go there yet. Can we Can we do another dinosaur Metric? One more dinosaur matter and we do one more before we go to leading versus lagging. Mmm. When maybe you got one from the audience that you remember. I didn’t think. Now there weren’t a lot of dinosaur metrics on there. I think when we went through them, it was Maur is more talking about. What are they used for? And are they the right metric for what you want? Okay, way covered that. I think we way hit the main ones, like overall retention rate, lifetime value, an average gift, all of which are used to make business decisions. Uh, there are other metrics, I think, as you start to dig deeper, that may or may not have good effect on decision making, but they’re not used ubiquitously. All right, All right. So we hit the big three, we hit the big three. Okay, let’s go to leading versus lagging. So, what’s what’s the, uh we need to understand what the difference is. So go ahead. Explain it, Kirk. Sure. So so a lagging metric is effectively something that you learn at the end of a period of time. Where is the leading metric? It’s something that is changeable over time, and you can use it to you when you look at what it is. You can then make adjustments to it to get to, ah, better value, and then they will help inform that legging metric. So a really good example would be the number of donors you have at the end of the year. That is a lagging metric, right. Uh, so how do you find out how many donors you’re gonna have at the end of the year? Well, if you know your acquisition rate, you know how many people you’re you’re tryingto you attempt to acquire. And if you know what your retention rate is, knowing how many donors you had at the end of last year, then you can predict what the number of donors are going to get than the end of this year. So then you can adjust things. Do you do make changes to your acquisition rate or how many people you’re acquiring? Do you? Do you embark on stewardship ventures, money retention to retain donors so you could actually make adjustments that way. Okay. Okay. Um, why do we need to know? How does this fit into the bigger picture in any different way? Or this is just leading versus lagging this. How does this help us? Overall? West? Yeah. You always want to be able to walk back your goal. So let’s say, are the fictitious charity that we’re using today. It was a fire. The fire swamp trust. Okay. And the fire swamp trust is saving. Rodents of unusual size is also far a argast want from also from Princess Bride. Okay, so they needed to raise $100,000. So to get to $100,000 on they wanted to do this using mid level giving. So gifts of 1000 to maybe $10,000 in order to secure those we know. We know some things. We know that you have to talk to donors and you have to move, take them through moves, management or a pipeline. So what’s a good leading indicator and figuring out are we going to be able to reach $100,000? Well, we know that we need to have people to actually talk to donors, and we need donors to talk to, Uh and we have a lot of metrics in our history that say getting someone to qualify if they’re in my portfolio is about 25%. So we have some conversion rates between our stages on. We know that it takes about five actions or five interactions with that donor to move people through each of the different stages. So a leading indicator in getting to that $100,000 would be having 20 donors to talk to and taking 100 attempts to talk to those donors will produce one gift. So that means that if if you walk that back, this is where we we like thio abuse. Leading indicators. If you walk that back, you know that if the gift team isn’t taking enough action, that that needs to be adjusted because you will not hit your target. And that’s how we like to look at leading and lagging Lagging would be how much money came through the door today. In this particular case, context is really important. Could do it like week by week, and absolutely you should in fact you have to, because that’s how you’re gonna know whether how you doing time versus goal? Sure. And whether you need to, in fact, walk back and change one of those variables that once you have control over. Exactly. Okay, Okay. Leading versus lagging. What else we got? Well, I mean, we did talk a little bit about the future, right? And in terms of, you know, we’re at this point where we can do a lot of this manual work in terms of figuring out what are lagging. Indicators are figuring out what our leading indicators are. But what what’s coming in terms of technology in terms of how processes air computed and and what will that look like? And kind of How do we get there? All right, we’ll talk about it. Well, um, I’m in the business of machine learning for charities. Um, we’re doing a lot of leading indicator work on making using those leading indicators to predict what a donor will do next. That is one good example of what the future may look like around a prediction. So when you think of what are the variables that you’re measuring thio, maybe it’s proprietary. A couple happy to share. We have about 75 variables way we don’t have time. Didn’t they fit into three transactions? Eso previous donation is obviously one of the biggest predictors of what will happen on, and that’s not new. That’s that’s old news. I would say your best customers. Your most recent customer. I learned that in the eighties you have information about a donor, which would be, you know, Tony D’oh! Do you care about this organization to attend events? These types of things where you live economic status on then the last piece would be Theo interactions between you and the church. So those three pieces together allow us to be pretty predictive on what’s the value of your next gift? What your likelihood to make that gift on. That’s one example of what the future may look like of in the charitable sector. There’s some very interesting things happening around. Kids help phone in Canada. They are doing sentiment analysis the organization kids help phone. Okay, great organization. They help at you at youth risk krauz at risk Youth. Thank you. In crisis I am listening. You’re testing me? Yes, I waas you passed So the sentiment analysis that will predict if a call needs to be escalated. For instance, is this a very serious call? And they can do that in real time because computers can absorb more variables. Any human on bacon do that at scale. It sort of automate sort of that intuition around using metrics. So we use metrics to inform our decision in inform for good decision making an intuition. Computers could do that at scale now. Okay. Okay. Um, you had something in your description that said, uh, recognizing data. That may be problematic for some metrics. Did we talk about that data? Well, Rita points that might be that comes around, saythe out liars with average. All right, so that’s gonna throw it off. Okay, way learned that yet? All right. The lights have gone off in, uh, in the exhibit hall. Uh, and he’s 19 ntcdinosaur non-profit Radio perseveres never actually have our own lights. You shall survive long. They don’t turn the power off. We could still record, and we could still see each other, So non-profit radio perseveres. I’m not sacrificing a 30 minute segment in 18 minutes because the ambient light out okay. Um okay. Integrating better analytics into your organization’s reporting. Better analytics for your accusations, reporting move. Kind of that subsumed it, Really? And everything we’ve said, Absolutely. That’s pretty general one. But you’re holding out on us because we got more time together and you do the 75. We’ve only done, like, 17 minutes and you get 75 minutes with the view up for the for the NTC audience. So what do you not giving up? Well, I’ve got a German name, so I’m efficient. I’m going cheating, cheating of radio listeners. I’m not gonna have it. So what else did you talk about? Or maybe talk about in more detail that you haven’t yet revealed here? So what we did is we, uh the audience gave us a number of metrics very early on that they used to measure. And the nice thing is, we got metrics from all sorts of all sorts of business units that aren’t necessarily fund-raising. So, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, impressions and click through rates and things like that. From a marketing standpoint, there were a few few that were very much program delivery, So people were talking about you know, the number of unique clients that they served or things like that. So what we did is we We spent some time going through some of those metrics and really talking about, you know, what is this measuring? Is it a leading indicator? Is it a lagging indicator? Is it both on dhe then? Going through that? Okay. So unless your host comes up with a 20 minute well, 10 minutes worth of variables that metrics that I’m that I’m preserving and committed to and then you analyze them rattle look well, well, we I mean, we we were, Unless that happens, if we one good example. Actually, I was I knew something. Would you dug enough? You’re holding out. But I’m not giving up. There’s nothing more to talk about. It talk about. Go ahead. There is S O. The audience is a little more varied than we expected. We thought it would be Omar fun fundez rating focused audience. But there’s a lot of operational folks in there. Uh, and that was intriguing to me. And we heard a number of cases where they were tracking like, number of days we have of operational funds in the bank was a metric that they looked okay. So let me give me, give the uninitiated a shot at that number of days. Number of days, days of money we have in the bank. Never heard that metric before. That sounds pretty granular like hopefully, it’s hundreds. No hope, the numbers hundreds of days. I was getting the impression it was not 100 today. Oh, maybe this is an important one. I mean, it’s like six. Well, first of all, that person needs to be networking for a job. A tte, the career center. Aaron NTC. If it’s six or below number of days, I don’t know, something just sounds weird about it. But But if you’re a tiny organization, maybe maybe this is keeping the lights on. It’s hard. I mean, from a business standpoint, it’s really about your cash flow, right? Like if we were in the for-profit business world, what we would be talking about is, is what is our cash flow? And and can we maintain it right, So so absolutely. It’s a really interesting stat from from a a charity Stemple, and she’s got such a scarcity mind to it. But if you’re in that. But if that’s you, yeah, all right, I can’t really get into controller. That’s looking. Oh, OK, yeah, yeah. As opposed to the fundraiser, right? Yeah, that’s the person who should be getting it right. Looking for a new job. If it’s the fund raiser knows that it’s 6 30 you get you’re in deep trouble. If anything, it’s a good good thing for somebody to be looking at. It’s just a matter of who. Hopefully that same organizations looking at receivables. Sure, we got We got this number of gifts in the pipeline, and typically these. This number will come through from our prospect list. So as far as you, as as we dug in a little bit on this indicator, which the number of days left is, in my opinion, still a lagging indicator, it is not a leading indicator. It is just a yard marker to say. How much time have we got left to make that a leading indicator? We then need to know how is that changing over time, for instance, so week over week, month over month, year over year, how how’s your cash flow or your days left in the bank changing over time. So if every day you look at the stat and it is still six days, then you can expect that this is actually reasonable case and that you have regular money coming in and you need to then keep walking back to get to the point where if you miss a day of doing something important that you know about it because six days from now you don’t wanna have to turn out the lights, right? So that is the exercise that that we preach about getting to those leading indicators that are your business drivers. I think one of the other important things I mean, I mean days left to somebody to some degrees is a bit of a leading because because you kind of have some some semblance of you know is the time to panic. Yes, it is. Um, and we talked about how context really matters in terms of leading indicators and lagging indicators, right? So for a stewardship person whose job it is to retain donors, retention rate might be a lagging indicator, right? They’re going to do a number of stewardship measures like, how long does it take to receipt and thank a donor on there. They’re going to try to adjust those as they go through to try to reach a good retention rate. Whereas a development officer might use retention rate to determine how many donors that there will be at the end of the year s O. So, depending on the context, depending on your job, what might be a leading indicator for one person? Maybe a lagging indicator for the other. Okay, I got your Yeah. I can’t really, uh, do a follow up question. But I understand that context matters absolutely the exact same number. Yeah. The last the last topic that we covered off was around cohort. And we haven’t talked about cooperating with you yet. Okay, s So I think I think it’s a good topic. Okay, courting is that we just have, like, two minutes left. Oh, no. Oppcoll super important cohort, please. The most important thing. All right, go ahead. Uh, you need to group people together. You know, birds of a feather segmenting segment here, Eddie would ntcdinosaur birds of a feather, right? Whether it’s knitting or stamp collecting and and that that becomes the basis of all your metrics and you only want a cohort to the point where, uh, you can still use it. So you can You can create too many segments on and have an unusable amount of data s o. You can’t consume it. You can’t produce on it like specific marketing appeals. Andi, we talked about using gift type. How someone was acquired. Eso a monthly donor has very should not be in the same cohort as a one time gift donor and a lot of these very basic things. Uh, but setting up your cohorts the right way so that their operational and usable and predictive eyes key. And that’s what I’d summarize in one minute. Okay, Okay. That was an excellent summary. I was thinking of, You know what would be a worthless cohort since we’re talking about bad, bad, like dinosaur data? Bad data. Um, age. Uh, I had some valid thoughts, as you were as you were talking. Explaining it, um, age could be, Could be a valuable cohort, or it might not. Right. It might not mean anything to average gift, but it might mean a lot to, um, potential donors to the plan giving program. Well, it might not mean something in particular cases as well. Like you might have a case where let’s say you’re an international charity and you find that certain American donors react a certain way to two things that you do. And donors in a different country who seem to have the exact same profile work completely different, Right? So So sometimes you’ll find that cohorts work in some places and don’t in others. So really, it’s about repeated testing and really, really looking to see what works in what cases? Okay, okay, West. I’m gonna give you the wrap up to this. Inconceivable the metric that does not mean that metric does not mean what you think it means. What do you want to leave people with, Oh, care about your metrics and always walk them back to their source. How, like, why’s that metric important? Take every step, break every step down and go right to the source for that leading indicator looks with leaving. Look for that leading into court indicator. Okay, that was West Moon, co founder and CEO of Wisely and sitting next to him is Cook Schmidt, director of Foundation Analytics Systems and operations at stores. Thank you very much, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure and thank you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit Radio coverage of 19 NTC As the lights are dim, the hall is quiet, but non-profit radio perseveres. All of our ntcdinosaur 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at act Blue Free fund-raising tools to help non-profits make an impact, we need to take a break koegler mountains software maintaining separate accounts for each fund-raising daily expenses and reporting to the board are all a challenge. That’s why Cougar Mountain created Denali Fund. It’s your complete accounting solution specifically designed for non-profits. They have a free 60 day trial. You can get that at the listener landing page. Tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain. Now time for Tony’s take to the 450th show last week. It was amazing. And when I say it was, what I mean is, I feel it will have been amazing. Awesome. I’m looking 10 days ahead and I’m telling you what happened a week ago, which is not hard for me to say, you see, because I know who will be on the show, and I know how good they’ve each been in the past, individually and collectively. Of course, no point critiquing them as individuals when they will have been and in fact were part of our whole troupe, but not quite, in fact, actually infection, which is close to fact in the existential sense. They’re the same. So when I say they were, I mean that they will have been. And in 10 days they were in fact have been. You can watch the recap video of Our Foreign, your 50th show at tony martignetti dot com, which will have been done after the 450th show. And that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for Google analytics and Google Optimize. Welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 and T. C. We’re kicking off our day three coverage is the final day of the convention, the conference and we’re coming to you from the conference from or Portland, Oregon at the convention center. So it’s a conference in the convention center. Make that three beginning of the beginning of the ending day. All of our 1990 CIA interviews are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising tools to help Ma non-profits make an impact. My guests are Colleen Campbell and Jimmy McCabe. Colleen is seated. Closest to me. She’s a senior digital strategist at Firefly Partners. Jimmy McCabe is senior digital producer at the Center for Reproductive Rights. Colleen, Jeannie. Welcome. Thanks for taking time on Day three unconference. How’s your conference going Going? Well, uh, Day three is always a little hard ones. A little tired, but hanging in a little bit. Have you done your session, then? Oh, yeah, it was yesterday. Thank goodness. Okay, that’s why we picked today to talk to you. Okay. I think that’s why um so your your topic is let your day to do the driving Google analytics and optimize for non-profits. Um, Jeannie. What? What was the reason? Why do we need this session? What are non-profits need to know? Big picture. We got playing time to go into the details. Well, how many do you want to answer the big picture? Because you’re the architect of our presentation. But I will. I will tell you what the center uses, um, data to how we use data to make decisions. Um, I can’t speak for other non-profits. That’s what that’s all. Okay, you are overviewing the headline. Yeah. So you know, our session was really focused on as the title says, Let your data do the driving. So we told a story about you know, first, how do you get good reliable data in Because, you know, that’s really the fundamental steps Way walked folks through some of the things about how to set up your Google analytics to get really actionable data and get to a point where you can trust your date up. Then we focus our middle section of our presentation talking about how do you interpret and understand what are some of the right reports toe look at, you know, not just sort of looking at numbers and pages, but really understanding what’s going on in your digital ecosystem. And what can that what story can that data tell you? And then ultimately, what do you do with it? So not just getting the data and looking at it, but then devising a plan for testing and optimizing. Okay, um and these are this is using Google analytics and Google optimize. Yeah, it was really fascinating that I would everybody in the room at our session yesterday. Use Google Analytics. All the hands went up and maybe a handful raging for 45 folks we’re using optimized, Which is that the final piece of that puzzle of getting the data, understanding it and then using it? Okay, so we’ll spend a decent amount of time on optimized since that sounds like that’s what people are at least familiar with. Are you Are you familiar with Google optimizer? Should we should be back up and explain it a little bit? I am not. You want to do an overview of optimized? We’re gonna let Let’s not go into detail. Now we’ll get to it, but tell us what it does. But what optimizes the tool that Google rolled out not that long ago that allows you to use a visual editor to basically run a be creative tests on your front end. So in other words, if I have, if I want to know if this picture that picture performs better, I pull that page into Google optimize. I send 50% of my traffic to the page with this image and 50% to the page with the other image and Google optimized reports back on your conversion Thio, you know, let you know which one is performing better. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah, and it’s a new tool. Or roll that out. I can’t remember. It’s recently free. Used to actually be a painful. And Google within about the last year have really open it up as part of a free sweet. So, um, you know, especially for non-profits Google Analytics 100% free. Yeah, you know, optimize that natively integrates with 100% free. And then even when you roll in, you know the Google ad grant in that part of that ecosystem. It’s a really powerful sweet of free tools. So the son of reproductive rights uses all of those Google tools. We have analytics, and we run AdWords advertising or they call it Google Ads. Now, I think with our Google Google grant, and then we recently started using optimized to try to up optimize literally, are our donation pages. Specifically, we’re not seeing the conversion we want, all right, and we’ve had a couple of panels on Google ad grants or Google ads. I thought it was called that grand, so I’m not sure, anyway. Michelle Hurtado, the head of whatever it’s called. Google was here. But I just learned through the content of the conference, I learned that they had changed the name from AdWords to Google ads, which so, Iet’s Google ads with grants. So if you’re a non-profit, you can have a grant. Right? So that’s $10,000. Okay, We didn’t do a session on that. Okay, we’re done with that now. We have yet, And like I said, we have the head of Google and grantspace Google ads. Way still don’t know the head of a co-branding problem is that they do. Yeah, well, I introduced her as something, and she didn’t object. So whatever the hell it was, it was right at the time. If it’s changed since then, 24 hours. All right, let’s get focused on what works. Great. Okay, you have some Now. I was just drawing from your session description. You have some best practices for for analytics and optimize Okay on. Do you have some Google Analytics terminology? Sure, if needed. Okay. You know, But then Colleen, you kicked us off with trust your data. What reports to look at and then testing and optimizing. So we got plenty to talk about in the next 20 minutes, right? Okay, Okay. Not a problem. So let’s start with some of the best practices for for analytics at Lena’s. We’ll weave them together since they they natively integrated analytics and optimized. Jeannie, why did you have a good idea for a best practice for either analytic list? Like a list of about 10 way? Don’t have our notes in front of you, but I can remember most of the top to the top three or four. What do you like? Well, I feel like it’s a little hard to explain without looking at it, but, um uh, you want one best practice we talked about. It’s setting up multiple views in Google Analytics. So, um, you have the ability to set up basically a test view, um, and then a mass review for your data. So it’s kind of like having a staging site on productions. I, um and we use views at the centre Thio create separate analytic views for our different language sites. So we have, um of you. We have our main website is reflective right side and Google Analytics. We set up a view for our Spanish pages are Spanish site, which is the same you are all about to Spanish language. Um, and then our English pages that we have a master view, which which combines all of them. What is Analects do for you on those two different pages? Well, with a view you’re able to then see, you don’t just isolate the audience for those pages and see where they’re coming from and what they’re doing, as opposed to, you know, having them all mixed up right away. The numbers being aggregated specific slice. Yeah. Okay, Colleen, a practice past may be the one optimized aural analytics. Yeah, as you mentioned, you know, I kind of went through our top 10 checklist, but I think the most important fundamental piece is having your goals and your conversion tracking set up. You’re not really going to be able to get valuable data and look at those reports and understand your r a y or, you know, run meaningful experiments without having that measurement in place. So, you know, our advice to folks was Look at what are the most important calls to action on your site and make sure that you’ve got goals that are actually configured in your analytics to track line to those those calls. Action s O for the center for Reproductive Rights. For example. You guys, um, you know, focus on email acquisition, tracking your donations within your analytics and getting that actual transaction data. Um, I think those are pretty common to toe lots of folks and lots of non-profits. Also the action alerts on your site, you know, Did someone actually complete that action? Right. Right. And then, Jeannie, I know one that’s a little bit more unique to you is actually tracking pdf downloads as well. Yeah, we have a narc way. Have extensive archive of publications, but also case documents and, uh, legal cases. Yes. So this interview, we’ve really introduce our Yeah. Since then, everybody writes, we we do a lot of litigation in the states, and we have for 25 years. So, um, we have ah long history of case documents that you can access through our website, and we don’t really know who’s engaging with them without setting pdf way. We set a goal and Google Analytics for pdf downloads, which is applied to those dahna. Pdf documents are for all of our casework. It’s hard to explain, but it was understandable. I think there’s there’s lots of you know, of those conversion goals that are common to any organization. I think the other you know, Big One from that Top 10 checklist is making sure that cross domain tracking configured in your Google analytics, which is a little bit of, ah, you know, obscure concept. But basically most sites you’ve got your primary domain, you know, reproductive rights dot or GE. But your online forms, like your donation form of your action alert, probably live in a different domain that’s hosted by your tool provider. So when someone comes to your website, you know that’s registered as a page, you and your Google analytics. But then that user clicks that donate button. They’re going to that domain where that form is hosted. And if you don’t set up that cross domain tracking analytics is gonna count, that is two different sessions. Oh, okay, so it’s a big thing. We’re, you know, Yeah, getting that fundamental data, make sure it’s right and make sure you can trust it. That’s really, you know, get your goals in place, make sure that you’re tracking configuration is tracking her whole ecosystem. Okay, I got one practice, but wait, I would like to do one for optimized. Got anything for Google? Optimize. I mean, that’s what I was gonna mention. I pee filtering, though, for Google analytics for us. Just one more quick note. You can, um can filter out from your mess review and Google Analytics filter out traffic that’s coming from specific. I p s like, like your own office. Perhaps eso are all of our legal assistance use our website extensively to do legal research on our cases. And so all of that traffic would be, you know, would show up on Google analytics if we didn’t filter out our own I p address. So that’s an important one. Google optimized. No, that’s it is there Are there really best practices? I’m just getting used to using it. And it’s really actually quite simple. Like the Google Analytics is super complicated compared to duvette optimize Google optimizes like a tool like I don’t know, it just feels really easy. And I almost feel like how are the best practice? Well, how would you answer that? That’s encouragement to use it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a best practice way could move on. We’re not gonna believe this thing. Yeah, I just think. I mean, I think it’s interesting because they do work as a suite of tools. So once you’ve got those fundamentalism place for optimized army for analytics, you can really layer on top, starting to use optimizing really smart ways. Okay, so, optimizers much simpler, right? I think aside from the use of it, the one thing that you know before you before you make an experiment and optimize the one best practice would be like, have a thesis have a plan. Um, you identify an issue that you wanna fix or you know, you want to improve conversion on your one time donorsearch. What do you think? You have to, you know, kind of have a thesis of like, Well, what do you think the issue is that it’s causing conversion to be low on what might make it better and make a hypothesis. And then, um, you know, do your A B tests and see how it goes. But I have a plan to just kind of willy nilly test this or that. You know, have a strategy. Good advice Okay, time for our last break turned to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories and get media attention on those stories to help you build support. They do media relations, content marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to DOT CEO, and we’ve got butt loads. More time for Google Analytics and Google Optimize. Let’s let’s go to reports. You mentioned that Colleen is one of the one of the triumvirate of your urine. 1/3 of the triumvirate of your your presentation. Which reports Do you like it? And another reports that you find in your clients paying attention to that aren’t really ones they ought to be looking at. Welcome to say, Don’t do this as well. So when it comes, understanding the reporting inside Google analytics to figure out what I should be testing, I always, you know, kind of tell the story about inlets. Could do a great job of telling you who’s my audience, right? There’s a whole slew of of reports in there that will give you a breakdown. A demographic information show you geographically where they’re coming from My other favorite report is really spending some time on your mobile report and understanding how much of your traffic is coming from desktop vs mobile devices and tablet things like that. So you know, there’s that whole suite of report that can tell you who is my audience, right? Jeannie? Were some things that you guys have learned. Maybe even from looking a little bit at those reports. First, we are looking at audience reports while I look at the audience reports and g et to see, um, what countries people are coming from, where a global organization And so um, we have We have regional offices through Latin America, India, Africa, Europe and I looked to see what countries in those regions are visiting our sight. See what’s interesting to them. Also, what languages people speak to visit our site. So that’s all an audience demographics. Okay, if you’re if you’re national or regional non-profit, can you get the same breakdown by state? Yeah, you can really drill down there. You can see a global map. You can see a country specific map. You could see a metro specific and even drill into like a zip code goes down does. It s so if you’re a local or regional and you want to understand what counties a lot of my traffic is coming from, you know, it’ll drill down to that. You This is a fundamental question. But do you You can figure that in Google analytics, or is that part of the authoritatively part of the reporting in analytics? So you configure your analytics, and then all of those reports are available to you, and they got some really great data visualizations and really easy to understand. Okay? And this specific report is called, What? These are all in the audience section, and that’s specifically the geographic report. Okay, another one. Really? Well, I was really the real time reporting. It’s fascinating to me. So Google who wanna would accept the option Thio you’ll see on the side real time reporting. And you can see you can actually see visually who is on your website at this moment and, like, drill down into, you know, New York state, like where you pull them up, get your email a little stock ary, I think. But I love it so you can see visually where you know visually, where where people are accessing your sight from right now. And then you can watch where they go on. You’re saying that’s called real time. Real time reporting? Yeah. What section is that? Real time. Let’s go. Okay. Yeah, I think the other the other part of you know what before. What do you do with that? What do you do with that? No, I don’t do anything. I didn’t like it. I don’t do a lot with it. You know, what we were talking about yesterday is real time reporting is actually a good way to test that. All of your pages Air firing the tracking tag. So, in other words, like you can use or you could do-it-yourself. Why? So you can hone in on your own person, right on real time reporting. And, you know, on this, you know, on this browser over here, you clicking around to different pages and then you can see that those pages air firing and smart I still get goose bumps when I see that the web just works that fast. E I still doing? I still do. When? What’s one? I like the check. Just Oh, I mean something so simple. But it just amazes me still, because I didn’t grow up with this. I mean, I know I know it exists, but it’s so basic. It’s embarrassing. But I’ll say it. I’ve embarrassed myself. Falik times on this show. Nobody listens to it anyway, so it doesn’t. Nobody listens to this show, so it’s just gonna be the two of you. Um, my dad, my dad even stoploss you make a calendar entry. I could do a count on my desktop on Did I go to my phone? And there it is. I mean, I think it’s amazing that the damn thing works that fast. I mean, I know it’s just incredible or you make a mistake in your credit card, and it’s like it’s instant. You’re trying to buy something instant invalid. Invalid credit card number. Check. Your expiration date is invalid. And how does it How does it cross check their facts like watching me real time and put the wrong digit, and it just gives me a chance to say it’s a hit. Enter and then it’s like it just knows instantly. Indication before, right? No. Okay, so say I still I still get amazed that planes flying. So that ability. That’s like suspension ideology. They don’t understand my things. I don’t understand. I don’t really know how the calendar entry goes from my laptop to my phone instantly. I know it. I can count on it. I don’t know how it works. The access database, don’t you? You ruin the charm of the web for me. You’re ruining it. You’re killing it. Don’t want to know about databases. Table more reports. One of the report’s due. Like Colleen, I interrupted you was interrupted for a worthless digression. Listeners are customs are our list. Well, if we had listeners, they’d be accustomed to my would be familiar with them right now what we’re gonna say, You know, you could spend all day kind of nerd and out or being big brother, figure your audiences starting a neighbor. Then there’s the whole section of reporting of understanding where they’re coming from, which kind of really gets into that our lives. That’s critical. That’s really where the referral sources Yeah, acquisition is the section and Google Analytics. You want to look a little acquisition, huh? Tells you what you are elves they’re coming from or it’ll give you a breakdown of like all the channels, so you can see right next to each other. Who’s coming from social media? Who’s coming from email? Who’s coming from organic search versus paid search. But you can drill in then and see what Web sites are coming from. You know, if they’re coming from a direct link, where did that directly come from? And then you use what’s called UT ut m familiar with the way eso we talked a lot about way we talked a lot about you. Tm codes in our presentations. People want access that information online. We have to play with the art I will trying to very succinctly. But, you know, I’m kind of I kind of ramble. So maybe you have a T l d armors. You know, when it comes to you, T m’s, I say, You know, uh, analytics is gonna give you that break down of channels, and it knows and does a good job of understanding that it’s coming from social or it’s coming from direct traffic. But Google doesn’t know on its own that it’s actually coming from email. So there’s a little bit of extra work you got to do if you want to track your email traffic effectively, and that’s those UT M codes that genies talking about, which are sametz tre parameters that you add on the end of your morals in your email that you send out What is your team stand for? Do we know? Is it from Universal tag Manager? But the codes And you know, actually, Google has it. This is this is in the system For years that I’ve been using you. Could you go search whatever you are, you are all generator you TMU Earl generator or something. Right now it’ll come right up and you can plug in like your campaign name, your source, your medium and the girl that you’re gonna be placing in your email or whatever and Google’s But all the upend, all of the parameters are variables to the ends that you can get your tracking you, Earl, you could drop in your email. It makes it really easy. Okay, so I think the other important thing about it, it’s really great to understand where your tactics coming from, but it becomes even more powerful when you combine that with those goals and conversions. We talked about because then you can see not only how much come traffic is coming from social media versus email, but how much of my raising from those channels how many people are actually taking action on my site? Maybe Social Media does a better job of getting people to take action alerts and respond online actions. But email does a better job actually getting people to donate. So having your conversion data next to that channel data is really sort of where the power is that I think the opportunity to find out what maybe not working or what’s unexpected. Where do I want to run? Some experiments and some Tyson optimized. So it’s about mining that data to really figure out what you want. A test. Okay, Okay. I used the report that I use the most. It’s just simply now we find out the one used the most Well, wait kind of working our way through the sidebar here. So we got audience acquisition. I was gonna start talking about content. Just another used most. Well, we’re going. We’re getting there we go. Which way, Jeannie? Now we know where they came from. Who they are now. We have to know what geological thought problem. Now we got to know what they’re doing on the site, right? Yeah, there’s these buckets. And as you can understand now, so they are You know, where they came from and what are they doing? That’s the site content. So I spend most of my time in St content reporting, which is seeing what landing pages people are coming in on. What’s the next page? They’re going to look at how much time they spend on certain pages. I look at, you know, it’s a page is getting a ton of use. Where did that traffic come from To get to that page? Um, so I know what the path Waas, um and I and I use it really Jin form or content strategy team. What content is of most interest? I look at fight search reports within there. I see what our top landing pages are every week. So we know if it’s something way, have some really specific, literally like a 12 year old, uh, reports, reports and documents that that get tons of traffic through Google search. And it’s interesting to see what people are interested in that we haven’t even we don’t even have updated content on the way. Can I talk to editorial team and say, Like, way need to revise that cerini to publish some new information on this subject. I’m gonna I’m gonna move us along testing, testing and optimizing because we just have three or four minutes left. So what’s, uh, what we need to know? Way just slide in our presentation that said, Optimize all the things right? No, but I think there’s there’s tons of opportunity out there, and hopefully you are mining that data to figure out what that is. But I’d say your donation form is prime real estate for testing, looking at and understanding what your top landing pages are on your site and what you can maybe test there to drive more action. What’s the right headline on that page? What’s the right imagery? What’s the right layout for that page? So, understanding from your analytics, what are those top landing pages and then identifying the elements on the page to actually run some 80 times, testing all different elements whether you have a photo or video with Dexter’s button color, all this? Yeah, everything. And then, in addition, to the elements on the page. Optimize allows you to do what’s called a redirect test. So if you have a CT A on a page, right, whatever, let’s call it a total. Okay, sorry about that. So you’re called action is donate right? But you wanna test, you know, one very different donate page from another day against another donate page. It’s not like a simple element changed. So you you can say through optimized like send 50% of the people who click on this button to this experience and sent 50% of this experience. And let’s see which experience performs better. So it’s a different type of test. It’s not just an element. It’s it’s literally using two different different experiences. Yeah, great example. Anyone who works in fund-raising has probably had the debate about what works better. Ah, form. That’s one step with all the fields on the page or a multi step donation form. And my answer is you gotta test it for your audience. There’s no there’s no one answer for everybody. Okay? Okay. Uh, was there another minute and 1/2 minute? Got about a minute left? What? Uh, you’re loving this No, it’s not among my worst injuries. Bottom third. You know, it’s valuable information. I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. No. Good answer. Um, what, uh, what would you like to leave people with a guy like our son? And we got 32nd. Now that I just wondered. 30 seconds messing around. What? I’ll give it to you, Colleen, because you’re the You’re the consultant. Steven, you see the global picture of this? What would you like to leave our audience with? Yeah, I mean, I hope we did an all right job kind of painting the picture of how you get that data in how you understand it and then what to do with it. But I think when it comes to testing an optimization, you know people immediately everyone knows. And there’s doing that peace around a B testing in my email. And people understand the importance of testing their social media ads. But I think people all often overlook the importance of testing pages on your website. So I think, you know, with the suite of tools from Google that are all free again and really accessible and easy, you have, you know, the power inability to do. And even without help from consultants like, yes, we’ll be starting a Web site redesigned soon without your help, actually, and optimizing all the things you’re hearing the inside track on the client relations right? Brandraise shit right now. All right, So they are calling Campbell, senior digital strategist at Firefly Partners and J. McCabe, senior digital producer at the Center for Reproductive Rights. Thanks to each of you, thanks so much for having us. And thanks to you for being with Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of 19 NTC. All of our 19 ntcdinosaur views are brought to you by our partners at Act Blue Free fund-raising Tools to help non-profits make an impact. Thanks for being with us next week. Getting buy-in and moving forward tech committees that work in two weeks. On August 16th I wanna let you know I’m firing a listener at the top of the show. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Witness E. P. A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Regular cps dot com by koegler Math and Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made Ford non-profits tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Our creative producer is Claire miree off. Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Park. Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein here with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking Alternate network. 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