Nonprofit Radio for January 10, 2020: Decolonizing Wealth

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My Guest:

Edgar Villanueva: Decolonizing Wealth
Edgar Villanueva’s book, “Decolonizing Wealth,” takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism—including philanthropy—can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy. (Originally aired 11/30/18)




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[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Happy New Year. I

[00:01:14.54] spk_2:
hope you enjoyed enormous amounts of time and good fun with family and friends. Lots of time off during the holidays. I hope you enjoyed the hell out of them. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize. A phobia if you missed our first show in the innovators Siris de colonizing wealth You can’t always kick off a series with a live guest. Edgard Villanueva’s book De Colonizing Wealth takes an innovative look at the purpose of wealth. His thesis is that the solutions to the damage and trauma caused by American capitalism, including philanthropy, can be gleaned from the values and wisdom of our nation’s original people. He’s a Native American working in philanthropy that originally aired November 30th 2018 on Tony’s Take two planned giving for 2020 were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com. But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is our first guest in The Innovators, Siri’s Edgar Villanueva.

[00:01:46.97] spk_1:
That’s my great

[00:01:47.77] spk_3:
pleasure to welcome to the studio. Edgar Villanueva. He’s a nationally recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He chairs the board of Native Americans in philanthropy and is a board member of the Andress Family Fund, working to improve outcomes for vulnerable

[00:02:04.64] spk_1:
youth. He’s an instructor

[00:02:15.34] spk_3:
with the grantmaking School at Grand Valley State University and served as vice president of programs and advocacy at the Shot Foundation for Public Education. He’s

[00:02:15.51] spk_1:
held leadership roles at Kate Be. Reynolds Charitable Trust in North Carolina and Marguerite Casey Foundation in Seattle.

[00:02:26.38] spk_3:
Edgar is an enrolled member of the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina. You’ll find him at de colonizing wealth dot com and

[00:02:33.05] spk_1:
at Villanueva Edgar and welcome to Studio.

[00:02:34.17] spk_4:
Thank you, tony. Pleasure to be here.

[00:02:35.68] spk_1:
Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Which just came out last month. Was October October 16th. Yes, all right.

[00:02:42.22] spk_3:
And you just had a very nice interview with The New York Times. Yes. Congratulations. On that day, that’s prep, prep, prep you for non profit radio,

[00:02:49.46] spk_4:
right? Right. I’m ready.

[00:02:50.80] spk_1:
All your all your media appearances

[00:02:52.77] spk_3:
to date have brought you to this moment, right? So that it’s all culminated here.

[00:02:57.61] spk_5:

[00:02:58.74] spk_1:
I promised listeners. Footnote one

[00:03:31.05] spk_3:
Footnote 12 Aah! Hyper Garg, Alice, the Asia. Of course, anybody listens to show knows that I open with something funny like that. A disease, every single show. But in Edgar’s book, he mentions hyper gargle issue Asia. So this is the first time over 400 shows that thea that the guest unknowingly has ah, provided the opening disease state. So thank you very much. You didn’t know what we do. That every single show. Um, you don’t know that

[00:03:32.16] spk_4:
I didn’t.

[00:03:32.55] spk_3:
Not listening to non profit radio. It’s It’s

[00:03:45.58] spk_1:
your life. All right. Um, okay. De colonizing wealth. Uh, you’re you’re You’re a bit of a troublemaker. A little bit. Yeah. You’re raising some eyebrows. No

[00:03:45.68] spk_4:
one told me yesterday that I was the Colin Kaepernick of philanthropy, which I was like, I haven’t thought about it that way,

[00:03:52.61] spk_1:
but that’s not

[00:04:00.05] spk_3:
all so bad. Getting closer to the mic so people can hear you. Yeah, just get not almost intimate. with it. Um, I

[00:04:00.14] spk_1:
used to call myself the Charlie

[00:04:06.38] spk_3:
Rose of charities until he blew that gig for me. You know, he ruined that. I can’t use that any longer. Um,

[00:04:08.83] spk_1:
because you talk about, ah,

[00:04:16.90] spk_3:
colonizer virus and exploitation and division. Um, like, those are bad things.

[00:04:18.64] spk_4:
Yes, they are. Bad thing.

[00:04:20.19] spk_3:
Okay. What? Ah, what is that? What’s the colonizer virus? Why do we need to de colonize

[00:04:26.84] spk_1:
so many of

[00:04:41.75] spk_4:
us who work in philanthropy or even the nonprofit sector? Um, you know, I have this firewall that were completely disconnected from Wall Street or from capitalism, or are some of those processes and systems in our country that may have a negative connotation for that, the good doers. But in philanthropy, we are not very far, you know, disconnected from corporate America. Most of this wealth was made by corporations and businesses, sometimes not in the best ways, not in

[00:05:01.97] spk_3:
the back of a lot of indigenous and colored people.

[00:05:05.18] spk_4:
Yeah. When you look at the history of the accumulation of wealth in this country, it’s steeped in trauma, right? And so legacy wealth that has been inherited for generations. Now, folks may not even know the origin of their family’s wealth. But you know, when we look back and that we see in general how wealth was accumulated? Um, you know, especially I’m from the South, North Carolina. We’ll talk about that. Um, there absolutely was a legacy of slavery and stolen lands that that help contribute to the massive wealth.

[00:05:34.94] spk_3:
And you feel there are a lot of lessons we can learn from the values of native Americans.

[00:05:40.29] spk_1:

[00:05:47.79] spk_4:
So, you know, we as a people talk about healing a lot. We have a lot of trauma that exists in our communities, you know, because colonization as we often think about it as something that happened five years ago in North Carolina, especially where I’m from, we were the first point of contact. But colonization and the the acts of separation and exploitation are still continuing present day. And so in my community, native communities across the country, even as recent as my grandparent’s generation, kids were forcibly removed from their homes and put into boarding schools. And so we’re still what We’re experiencing a lot of trauma as a result of these practices, but we are arias, resilient people and those who are closest to a lot of the problems that we’re trying to soft today. As a society have a lot of answers and wisdom that we can bring to the table.

[00:06:34.10] spk_3:
You say that the natives are the original philanthropists? Yes. Um, now you’re a member of the Lumbee tribe. North Carolina. That’s right. Robertson County, North Carolina. Which, which is not too far from where I own. I own a home in Pinehurst, which is a little north and west, I think of of Robertson County lumber. So the Lumbee tribe, I assume the lumber river is named for the love bees and lumber turn the town. That’s right. Name for Lum bees,

[00:07:06.91] spk_4:
Right. So lumpy is were actually named after the lumber river after river came first. Yeah, the river came first, and so

[00:07:12.25] spk_1:
certainly the river came from. The name of the river came, right, Right. River’s been

[00:07:22.29] spk_4:
there much longer. Okay? Yes. So we’re, you know, hodgepodge of historical tribes that were in coastal North Carolina that I came together to form the Lumbee tribe and named ourselves after that river.

[00:07:42.04] spk_3:
Um, and we’re gonna come back to ah, Native Americans as the as the original philanthropist, but that struck me a lot. I think. You You say you say that the end of the at the end of books, right where I caught it. Um, we have, like, a minute 1/2 or so before a break. So just we’re introducing this. We got playing time together. Wealth, you say, divides us, controls us, exploits us. What’s that about?

[00:07:53.94] spk_4:
So the accumulation of wealth so money in itself is neutral. Wealth in itself, I say is is neutral. But it’s the way that wealth has been accumulated in this country that has caused harm when we value when we, you know, fear and were motivated by greed on the acts that could result as as a result of that to exploit the land and to exploit people or what? That’s what has calls the Harmon itself. So, um, the case that I’m going to make in this book that I’m making in this book is that wealth and money can actually be used for the good. If it historically has been used as a negative thing that has calls trauma, we can flip that to use it for something that can actually help repair the harm that has been done.

[00:08:36.03] spk_3:
You’ve got 7/16 steps to that. The second half of your book. All right, We’ll take our first break.

[00:09:08.03] spk_2:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As in the new year, might you need a new c p A. A firm whose service is excellent, who provides clear direction and timetables and is easy to work with. And you know where you know a partner There, There where? You know, a partner you touch to talk to him. He’ll tell you honestly whether they can help you in the new year. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to de colonizing wealth.

[00:09:17.69] spk_3:
Now back to Naghani Onishi! That is your Indian name. Did I by any chance, say that correctly?

[00:09:20.61] spk_4:
I think that’s correct. I’m a little shampoo with my Ojibwe these days.

[00:09:33.91] spk_1:
You don’t know your boy That sounds that is your Indian name. Yes. Uh, leading bird. Tell the story of how

[00:09:34.78] spk_3:
you got that name. We’ll come back to you. Don’t. I will come back to the exploitation and control. Don’t think this is a good story. How you got that name?

[00:11:01.71] spk_4:
So my tribe, the Lumbee Tribal North Carolina doesn’t have a tradition of naming you are whatever your mom calls you. That’s your name, right? That’s right. So But when I when I was working in North Carolina and native communities, I went to a conference where there was a medicine man and someone the medicine man was meeting with folks who wanted time with with him to talk or have a session. And growing up in North Carolina, my identity as a native has always been quite complicated. We didn’t have these types of practices in my home in Raleigh, North Carolina. And so But I was very curious to meet with this medicine man and Thio see what could happen from that encounter. And someone told me, If you’re if you’re really lucky when you meet with the medicine man, they might give you a spiritual name or a native name. Um And so I met with this guy in the Marriott Hotel in Denver, Colorado, where this this Native Health Conference. So it was all, ah, tell the story in the book is quite, um, hilarious and in many ways let the Indian of our session where I was feeling excited about, you know, the conversation we had, but also a little confused and skeptical in some ways because I, you know, had such colonized ways of thinking. He did offer me a native named Johnny Benesch A which means leading bird. So I was very honored. And my first thought was, What kind of bird, right? Am I a little Tweety bird or in my mighty eagle Republicans? Right. Birds are vest. So, um, he explained to me that I was the type of bird that flies in a V formation. Um, And as I when I left, I studied of these birds and they’re

[00:11:22.06] spk_3:
the leading bird I’m deleting. There is leading Berg.

[00:12:02.84] spk_4:
I’m the bird that flies in the front of the V formation, which is the kind of leader that is often visible but really understands its co dependence and interdependence on the other birds. And so if you watch birds flying in a V formation, it’s really like amazing natural, you know, national phenomenon. How, ah, how they communicate and fly together. The other thing that’s remarkable about the leading birds type of leadership is that it often will fly to the back of the pack and push another bird ford. So it’s not always the one that’s out front. And when I when I learned these characteristics, I just felt really I was really, really happy and content about this name because I do see that’s the type of leadership that I model in my everyday life. And I think it’s a type of leadership that’s really important for the nonprofit sector.

[00:12:19.17] spk_3:
You explain how the birds communicate, which I’ve always wondered. They’re just close enough that they can feel vibrations off each other and our micro movements. I think you say off each other. But they’re not so close that they’re gonna bump into each other and, you know, be injured. That’s how they say, I guess they’re feeling the breeze off each other and sensing these micro movements of each other. So they’re that close, but not so close that they could be injured, right?

[00:12:41.69] spk_4:
It’s there. It’s very fascinating. It’s like a scientific, uh, you know, GPS built into their bodies. And the other thing I recently heard about these birds is that you don’t ever find one that dies alone. And so you know, I want to learn research that a little bit more, but I think when they’re when someone is down are you know there’s an injury or whatever may happen? They there’s there’s a certain way that they take care of each other. And so, um, you know, it just kind of speaks to our common humanity and our Inter related, you know, being inter related

[00:13:19.31] spk_3:
exactly our interdependence. Now this is this is an indigenous belief that we are all related. And that’s what it makes me think of the birds also absolutely working so closely together that they feel micro movements. But how explain this this belief that we are each of one of us related to to eat all the other?

[00:13:35.43] spk_4:
Yes. Oh, there there is, ah, native belief, all my relations. That means you’re all of our suffering is mutual. All of our thriving is mutual. And, ah, you know, we are We are interdependent. And so it’s a very different mindset, or world view from sort of the American individualistic type of mindset. Um, we also have connected to that viewpoint is on this idea of seven generations. So not only are we all related, you know, in this room right now and that we’re relatives on and we are related to the land and to the animals around us. But all of the things all of the decisions and that we’re making today are gonna impact future generations. So there’s an idea that I am someone’s ancestor. And so what a responsibility to move through the world in a way that is thinking that far forward about our our young people. And so these are concepts that were taught to me by my family. But also in recent years, this book gave me the opportunity to revisit and spend time with indigenous elders to remember these teachings and that, and to think about how to apply them in my work.

[00:14:47.45] spk_3:
And you encourage us to each that each one of us takes responsibility. For as you said, we’re thriving and suffering together. Um, what I’m referring to is the each of us takes responsibility for the colonizer virus. Say more about that.

[00:15:03.48] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think

[00:15:04.78] spk_3:
Are we all responsible?

[00:15:18.54] spk_4:
We’re all responsible because we’re all affected. I think some folks we, you know, we learn about colonization and schools is something that seems pretty normal, right? We we think of colonization and the colonizers as heroes,

[00:15:22.47] spk_3:
like the natural path of progress. Absolutely Way. It’s learned,

[00:15:59.68] spk_4:
right? We have holidays, you know, for for Christopher Columbus, for example. And so but the realities are that colonization, um, was something that was terrible that resulted in genocide and all types of exploitation. And that type of history that we have in this country is something that we as as the people have not come to terms with we. Actually, we don’t tell the truth. We don’t face the truth. And so I think we’re still dealing with the consequences. S o the dynamics of colonization which are to divide, to control, to exploit, to separate those dynamics. You know, I refer to them as the colonizing virus because they they’re still in our bodies. As as a nation, they show up in our policies are systems reflect the colonizer virus and in our institutions, in the nonprofit sector and especially in philanthropy, where we are sitting on lots of money, privilege and power,

[00:16:27.93] spk_3:
least naturally, to your point about us, them organizations

[00:17:12.06] spk_4:
Absolutely. So you know, I think the philanthropy, for example, can perpetuate you know, the dynamics of colonization. Because when you look at where this where this money came from and how we as a sector don’t face the realities of that truth. Ah, would you look at, um asked the question of why this money was held back from public coffers that, you know, had it gone into the tax system, it would be supporting this safety net and vulnerable communities on when you look at who gets to allocate, manage and spend. Did you see a very white, dominant kind of mindset happening? Because, for example, if we get into the numbers just a little bit, foundations said on $800 billion of assets, that’s a lot of money that has been, you know, shelter from taxation. That’s money that would have gone into public education, healthcare, elder care, things that we need for the infrastructure of our communities. But that money has been put there with little to no accountability of private foundations are only required by the RS Thio payout 5% of their assets. And so then, you know you’re looking at just a small percentage of money that was intended to be for the public. Good on Lee, a small percentage is actually leaving the doors being invested in community

[00:18:18.61] spk_3:
Let’s assume it’s I know there are a lot of foundations that use that 5% minimum as their maximum, so that 05% of that would be $40 billion. So the counter is bad, but there’s $40 billion coming each year. Could be more. But let’s take the minimum just to be conservative. And, you know, we’re trying to preserve this, uh, this foundation capital for perpetuity. So if you know, if we if we spent in the next two years, the 800 billion, then we wouldn’t have anything left for future, just future years and other generations were tryingto no, we want to be around for in perpetuity. The foundations would say

[00:18:29.13] spk_4:
right, right? And,

[00:18:30.24] spk_1:
you know, I

[00:19:43.06] spk_4:
think that I think there is a case to be made for saving some funds for a rainy day in the future. But the truth is that 5% when Congress had acted that 5% rule, um, it actually began at 6% I believe in 1974 and then in 1976 was lowered to 5%. The reason that Congress had to actually put this legislation forward is because foundations were not paying out any money. And so when you think about the intent of foundations, are they being started to actually benefit the public? Are are wealthy, the wealthy 1% or whoever corporations starting these foundations just for the sake of having a tax break. And so that that, uh, I rs minimum payout of 5% That rule was put in place to force foundations that actually begin making grants. And so you know, So it is sort of, ah, the other thing to explore if you are with a 95% that is not leaving the doors. Um, if the intention is really to do good and communities, we have to look at how that 95% is then being invested too generate more money for future grantmaking. And the truth there is that the majority of those funds are tied up and harmful and instructed extractive industries that are counterintuitive to the mission of foundation.

[00:20:14.59] spk_3:
Yes, you make the point often, uh, that often right, those investments are in our in industries that are hurting the very populations that the foundation is explicitly trying to help through. It’s through its mission, and in fact, funding. Um, the, uh there’s something else that there’s your estimate, Thea. The way the money is. All right. Well, we’ll come back to it if I think of it. Um, there’s

[00:20:14.96] spk_1:
there’s a lot

[00:20:31.41] spk_3:
that organizations congee gained by hiring people of color. Indigenous people. What? Ah, and very few. Your rare exception. Um, working in found eight doing foundation work. What’s the make explicit? Those, uh, those advantages.

[00:20:57.22] spk_4:
Sure. So you’re right. I’m absolutely, um, exception. I think when I started in philanthropy, I was one of 10 Native Americans that I could find. We kind of found each other. What year was that? This was in 2005. That’s along. And we are now. Ah, there’s about 25 of us now. The last time I counted. So

[00:20:57.65] spk_1:

[00:20:57.85] spk_4:
there’s there’s, you know, an amazing opportunity for foundations. And I think more more foundations are understanding to bring folks in 22 foundations that have lived experience

[00:21:10.23] spk_1:
and not only

[00:21:10.59] spk_3:
foundations but non profits. NGOs doing the groundwork, absolutely foundations of the funders on Dove course. Some foundations are now actually doing their own groundwork. We’re seeing that emerging, but But for the nonprofits doing the day to day work A CZ well represent the communities that you’re

[00:21:25.93] spk_4:
absolutely. It kind of makes sense right and felt, You know, it’s funny because some foundations actually require that of non profits. They ask about the diversity of their staff on their board, but they themselves have no type of, you know, values around diversity of their staffs. But you’re you know, the point is that for sure that any non profit our foundation, too tohave folks that work there, who have authentic accountability to community and understand and have been impacted by the issues that you’re trying to solve is going to bring an awareness. And, um, you know about the problem in a different way is gonna create some proximity that I think is gonna just inform strategies that that makes sense. And I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been in strategic planning processes on board meetings where decisions were being made and always carry my mother, my family with me, you know, in spirit, into the room. And I hear these decisions are these conversations, and I’m thinking like, Oh, my God, like you know, this, you know, this this would not in any way help my mother mar my family that’s still living in poverty. Decisionmakers disconnected. There’s such a disconnect. Yeah,

[00:22:58.01] spk_3:
yeah. Um, and ah, I I thought of what I was gonna ask you about. Just comment on the foundation wise, we do see some foundation saying that they’re gonna spend down their assets. Um, I wouldn’t say it’s, ah, needle moving. But you do hear that from time to time that there’s a foundation is committed now to spending its its assets down. Um, was Paul Allen was it? Ah, not pull out the Microsoft. Uh, I think the Microsoft founder co founder who recently died, I think his foundation was Paul Allen. Okay, um, I was thinking of Steve Allen to come. You’ll come. That’s why I thought No, it wasn’t him, but was Paul Allen. I think his foundation’s one, But

[00:23:17.21] spk_1:
there are some. So we do

[00:23:20.24] spk_3:
hear some glimmers. Ah, but you say in the book a few times, people, we need to move the needle.

[00:23:24.27] spk_4:
Yeah, I think I mean, I think deciding to spend down is ah is very progressive way of thinking about it. There’s so much need now if we actually release the funds or

[00:23:34.56] spk_1:
even if

[00:24:22.80] spk_4:
you don’t want to spend down, you can make a decision to pay out more. Um, there there’s a lot of amazing work happening. Um, right now that is so under resource that if we could support and get behind investing money in these various movements and the’s in communities of color which are so marginalized by philanthropy, you know, uh, the 5% that is being invested only 7 to 8% of those dollars are being invested in communities of color. Yeah, that would make a big difference. And so I think, you know, I think it’s a conversation that the boards the foundation should think about. What is the value of you know why? Why do we want to stay in perpetuity? Like, what is that about a family legacy? Is that really about making a difference in the world? Because in some ways, it feels I can see that has been a very selfish type of, you know, um, way of thinking.

[00:24:36.81] spk_3:
If this was CNN right now, I would play a video of you, but I don’t I don’t have that. But in your in your times have to work on that. A talking alternative we need. We need video capture and screens and everything in your video in your interview with David Bernstein, New York Times. Uh, you said by not investing mawr in communities of color, philanthropy, venture capital impact investing in finance are missing out on rich opportunities to learn about solutions.

[00:24:54.05] spk_1:

[00:25:49.89] spk_4:
You know, I think that I think of, you know, people of color indigenous folks as being the canaries in the coal mine sometimes when when policies fail or systems fail. Um, we hurt the hardest. And, uh, but there’s just something so magical about him. And since a private I have about my community because we’re so resilient, like, regardless of, um, you know, all of the trauma of the colonization the, um, you know, genocide, stolen land, we still remain intact as a people. And so there’s there’s gotta be something magical about that resilience that I would if I weren’t native. I will be interested to know, Like what? When you think about sustainability, you know, we have a corner on sustainability. Indigenous peoples around the world are on the front lines of saving this planet on, you know, you know, really fighting for environmental protections there. There’s so much wisdom. And you know often what foundations roll out new theories of change. There are changes, are see strategies. Or there’s a new model or theory theory of change that comes up. And I’m like, Wow, we’ve been doing that are in our communities for years. If someone would have asked us, you know, maybe we can get there faster.

[00:26:08.00] spk_3:
Is there still a Lumbee community in Robson Robson County?

[00:26:11.69] spk_4:
Yes, there are. There are about 60,000 enroll members and a Lumbee tribe. The bulk of our community is still in Robertson County.

[00:26:23.86] spk_3:
Okay, Now have in North Carolina driver’s license. Well, that will get me in. Can I be in a number?

[00:26:25.25] spk_4:
You know, we were very inclusive. We we’ll take will adopt you as honorary brother, but you have to have a little bit more documentation. T officially enrolled.

[00:26:34.75] spk_1:
That’s a stretch

[00:26:35.59] spk_3:
for an Italian American with North Carolina license plate on driver’s license. All right, um,

[00:26:42.91] spk_1:
you Ah, you talk about,

[00:27:23.48] spk_3:
um you know, I guess. I mean, we’re skirting around these things. Make it explicit the power imbalance. You know that minorities are seeking it and mostly middle aged white guys are are doling it out. Ah, you know, piecemeal. Um, the the imbalance. You know, the grant, even the even the word, you know, the granting right. It’s like some, uh, some holy orders has has bestowed upon you something that’s ah, gift. When, uh, your your belief is that your thesis in the book is that it’s It’s it’s a It’s a right equally held by all.

[00:27:27.54] spk_4:
Yet, you know, I think power and money a lot of a lot of this does come down to power and ownership were talking in the nonprofit sector right now, a lot about equity, right and equity is very different from diversity and inclusion. To me, equity really is all about shifting power, and we often think about that from lens of equality. So we’re gonna have to sing power, which is a good thing. But to really achieve equity, it’s gonna actually require that some folks who have had power for a long amount of time give up more power, take a back seat.

[00:28:02.24] spk_3:
So that’s not gonna happen,

[00:28:03.24] spk_1:
you know, that’s that’s highly unlikely.

[00:28:06.11] spk_3:
Like infant is really small. Unlikely.

[00:28:15.58] spk_4:
You know, it’s a hard thing for people thio to think about it, especially if you have. If you’ve been privileged for so long, equity might actually feel like oppression for you, right? Because it’s like, you know, well, I’m I have less than I’ve had So, um, but, you know, we II want to think about this abundance mind frame. There’s enough. There’s enough resource is enough power to go around. We just have to work together to make sure that we are privileging. There’s who have not been privileged by that.

[00:28:41.80] spk_3:
So I love that you. You approach it from a position of abundance and not and not scarcity. We’re taking a break.

[00:28:42.67] spk_2:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software

[00:28:45.74] spk_1:
in the new

[00:30:19.28] spk_2:
year Might you need accounting software? Cougar Mountain will help you organize your numbers. It’s designed from the bottom up for nonprofits. It’s built for you. Their customer service is excellent, so they’ll take care of you and they have a free 60 day trial. You get that on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Martin. Now, time for Tony’s Take two four must have to start your planned giving in 2020 um, the video at tony-martignetti dot com has four things that you need to have in place for you to kick off. Planned giving in 2020. I’ll be more than happy to give you one right here and then for the video for the other three. You got to go to the video. Um, you have to be at least five years old. People have to be confident that your organization is going to live longer than them because they’re gonna be including you in their estate plan. Most likely there will. And they need to know that you’re gonna survive them so that there could be a gift for your organization when they die. So in order to have that confidence or for your donors to feel that confidence about your longevity, I like to see at least five years of history in the organization and for the other three, Um, check the video, and that is at tony-martignetti. Dotcom four must have to start your plan giving in 2020. That is Tony’s Take two. Now back to de colonizing wealth. Our first entry in the innovators. Siri’s.

[00:30:25.90] spk_3:
Now I wanna go back to Edgar Villanueva. Edgar Villanueva.

[00:30:30.47] spk_1:
See, I thought

[00:30:31.29] spk_3:
he would pronounce his name. Edgar and I was wrong. And But that’s that’s why I said Edgar.

[00:30:38.00] spk_1:
But it’s Edgar Edgar Edgar Villanueva and de colonizing

[00:30:40.03] spk_3:
wealth. Welcome back, you two go for

[00:30:42.08] spk_4:
Thanks for having me. Okay?

[00:30:43.29] spk_1:
Just will be here. Yes. Yeah. You haven’t done anything that

[00:30:46.79] spk_3:
would lead me to shut your mic off. Um, it hasn’t happened. I’ve threatened, but it hasn’t happened.

[00:30:51.74] spk_1:
So let’s let’s start getting ah positive, Okay.

[00:31:03.37] spk_3:
You know, the second, roughly the second half of your book is seven steps to healing. Um, and, uh, I thought you came up, like five short. I mean that we have only 12 status if

[00:31:08.21] spk_1:
you want to. If you want to share power, you’re gonna have to

[00:31:16.07] spk_3:
have you got to step it up with 12 steps or or even 15. You have more than the colonizer, but but

[00:31:16.83] spk_1:
the seven steps are in themselves. They’re pretty radical.

[00:31:30.80] spk_4:
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because I did have some resistance to having seven steps, right? Because it makes it seem like there’s Ah, there’s ah, quick and easy fix. If I just do these seven things, then we’re done with this, and we could move on

[00:31:35.14] spk_3:
is a prime number. Got that event right? That’s that’s I don’t know why.

[00:31:40.12] spk_4:
So, you know, But I did need to simplify the process in some ways just to help us get our minds around, you know? Ah, process that we can begin. But there is no ah, linear way are quick way to to solve all of these problems or two to undo what has been done. But there are ways to to to move forward and the steps to healing for me where are

[00:32:04.50] spk_3:
lets them out for us. Just list all seven and then we’ll talk about

[00:32:07.26] spk_4:
I’m sure. So they’re grieve. Apologize. Listen, relate, represent, invest and repair.

[00:32:15.64] spk_5:
Okay. Um,

[00:32:16.61] spk_1:
so you’ve been thinking

[00:32:17.17] spk_3:
about this for a while in this? Uh, I just did. I admire the I admire the thinking that goes into this.

[00:32:51.25] spk_4:
Yes. So some of it comes from my own personal experience when it kind of coming to terms and with the sector that I’m working in and the disconnection that I felt as a native person in the space and spending time in my community to, uh, just re ground myself in my values and, um and kind of acknowledging the wisdom that was in my body and in my community that I could bring to the space the other parts of it come from. I did lots of interviews with folks who work in nonprofits and in philanthropy, who were, I think of very four thinking people in the space activists who are leading movements around the country in to get to a place of you know what? What? What have you gone through personally to kind of reconcile some of this? Um And then, you know, a lot of this is also based on an indigenous, restorative justice model. So we hear a lot about restorative justice in the nonprofit sector. Now, this is, ah, method that’s used in schools. And I’m in the criminal justice system to help people deal with with things that have gone wrong to kind of get back on the right track. And so this is ah, model that has come from indigenous communities where we sit in circle with the offender with someone who has harmed us or done us wrong to get to a place of truth and reconciliation.

[00:33:56.08] spk_3:
I saw ah grieving Ah, you say everybody I mean, because of our inter relatedness, where we all need to grieve, including people of color indigenous, those who have been oppressed.

[00:34:48.73] spk_4:
Absolutely. We all need to grieve. We need to get to a place where we’re just very clear and honest about the history of this country. What has happened, what the idea of, you know, white supremacy, which is not a real thing, right? But why the idea of subscribing to that the harm in the loss that has calls for people of color but also white people? And, you know, I think that’s well. It’s pretty clear the trauma and the harm that has been calls in communes of color. It’s not so clear we don’t talk about it very much. The loss that Ah, that colonization and the idea of white supremacy has actually calls in white communities. But it’s, ah, it is. There is a loss there. I talk about it in the book, um, of the idea that white people came from from communities where they had cultures and tribal ways of of interacting in many cases, languages and things that were given up in order to assimilate to this idea of being American. And I think now we’re seeing folks feeling a sense of loss about that. That’s why if you see these commercials for these DNA tests are so popular right now because everyone wants to kind of remember where they’re from and it feel connected to that in some way.

[00:35:21.33] spk_3:
Um and, um, the ah, the thing you talk about two is, uh, the orphans orphans. You say that? Ah, those of us who are descendants of of the of the settlers you call us orphans? How’s that?

[00:36:55.80] spk_4:
I call them orphans. This is a term Moberg from some research that has been done on whiteness. And it is it’s kind of speaking to this idea of loss again, sort of giving up the culture that maybe from from from the home country, from where folks settlers came from, given up. There’s those ways of being an interactive in community to subscribe thio this individualistic way of being in America. And so with that, there’s been a lost of sort of that that mother country for lots of white folks and a loss of identity because although, you know I’m not anti American, let me be very clear about that This is the greatest country in the world. I’m very proud, TB, a citizen of this country. But there is something about leaving behind and not remembering where you originated from in order to adopt sort of this new culture here, um, you know, and and and not, um, that that makes you feel sort of like an orphan. If you’re not, you have no connection to where your green appearance or from, or the language. They spoke with the culture they have. Um, and I feel that that’s a loss for many white communities, that is actually a feeling that is shared with communities of color on. And if we recognize that loss in that trauma that we have in common, it opens doors for a different type of conversation about race. You

[00:36:56.09] spk_1:
said a few

[00:36:56.41] spk_3:
minutes ago that white supremacy is not a riel. Not really. All right,

[00:37:00.09] spk_6:

[00:37:05.06] spk_3:
why why do you say that? Well, I mean, there’s a white supremacist movement, but how are you thinking about it that you say it’s not really

[00:37:07.87] spk_4:
Well Well, the idea that that ah, you know, a certain group of people white people are superior because of the pigment of their skin is not a real thing, right? So this wasn’t on ideology that was created. Um, in order, Thio be able to have the types of oppressive movements and systems and policies that have been put in place for many years. And so it is a mindset that has been, you know, an idea that is not really, but we have built systems and societal norms around that, you know, growing up, I was taught that, you know, are sort of the default for me was whiteness was was better. And so if I were to behave or address or act, I’m in a certain way that appeared to be more white than that was gonna be, ah, better thing for me. And so we know that the idea white supremacy is you know, the idea of it is not really, but they’re very real implications and for how we have adopted that belief.

[00:38:08.65] spk_3:
All right, Um and you’re you also encourage non profits and teams toe have ah, grieving space we’re talking about. We’re talking about grieve. We have about a minute before break, but and then we’ll move on with the seven steps. But what’s a grieving space in an office.

[00:38:23.18] spk_4:
Yes. So you know, these these steps are personal, but it can be applied in organizational setting. And so I think, especially those of us working in the non profit, where we’re supporting communities, we need tohave space. Space is in our in our our work live to be able to talk about bad things that have happened and to grieve that into Philly motion to be human about it. And so, you know, I share some research in the book and some antidotes of folks who have have done that and the researchers that there it’s actually leads to a much more productive workplace toe have moments where we stopped the work to actually grieve and acknowledge the events are happening. You know, in our communities,

[00:39:06.61] spk_3:
the book is de colonizing wealth. Just just just get the book because we can only scratched the surface of it here in an hour. But de colonizing wealth dot com That’s where you go. So I gotta take this break.

[00:39:34.75] spk_1:
Tell us, Start with the video at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant porting. You talk to them, have them

[00:39:36.36] spk_3:
watch the video and if they switch, you are going to get that long stream of passive revenue from the fees they pay.

[00:39:44.49] spk_1:
Tony, that m a

[00:39:53.06] spk_3:
slash now back to Edgar Edgar Villanueva. See, I practiced saying Edgard because I just assumed on. I thought, now I’m sure he uses Edgar, just

[00:39:57.42] spk_4:
like editor Allan Poe.

[00:39:58.44] spk_1:
Yeah, I know, I know. I understand. That’s the, uh, uh, your name

[00:40:11.56] spk_3:
your Taliban ass anyway, And I I, uh I assumed we know what makes you know what happens when you make assume, make an ass of you and me, uh, so Okay,

[00:40:15.26] spk_5:
uh, Edgar, um, I

[00:40:15.37] spk_1:
like the idea

[00:40:30.21] spk_3:
of the grieving space. You know, acknowledge, you know, everything doesn’t go well all the time. It’s impossible. No organization succeeds. 100% nothing. So give yourselves time and space to talk about it, acknowledge it, learn from it and and move on rather than it being some cloud over the organization that everybody’s afraid to talk about or something. You know, it’s how oppressive is that?

[00:40:38.83] spk_4:
Very oppressive. And in philanthropy is, especially because we were sort of carrying around the secrets of like, how this wealth was a master secrets that were then these families that you know, many people feel bad about. And so we just need to kind of, you know, beat, be truthful and honest about the history and spend time grieving over that so that we can move forward. As she said.

[00:41:24.56] spk_3:
And that was the next step in terms of, uh, your next step apologizing. Recognizing, which includes recognizing the source of the foundation money you worked for the Reynolds Kate be Is it Kate Pickett, Be Reynolds Foundation, Reynolds Tobacco, North Carolina. You know that money was raised on the backs of slaves. Um, I’m not gonna ask you if the KGB Reynolds Foundation acknowledges that, but that’s an example of what we talked about in the in the steppe, apologizing.

[00:41:31.91] spk_4:
Absolutely. There was. There was no acknowledgment of that. And, uh, chapter one of the book is called My Arrival on the Plantation because our foundation offices were literally on the former as stay or plantation of R. J. Reynolds and so really, literally and metaphorically, I was I was working there, but no, there was. There’s no acknowledgment of that. And I think you see that, you know, in North Carolina recently, the chancellor of you of the University of North Carolina acknowledged that the history of slaves and in building that university and that some of the buildings there are named after a former slave owners. What most people of color want is just to be seen and heard and for folks to make that recognition.

[00:42:28.10] spk_3:
Yeah, acknowledge and maybe moved to apology for perhaps that didn’t Johns Hopkins University do something similar? That that they had their founders were, uh, Johns Hopkins. Their founders were slave owners,

[00:42:30.73] spk_4:
I think. Georgetown University,

[00:42:34.47] spk_3:
Georgetown. Sorry. Thank you. Okay, Georgetown, they were

[00:42:35.48] spk_1:
pretty, right? There were priests,

[00:42:37.76] spk_3:
priest founders that were slave owners.

[00:42:41.71] spk_4:
That’s right. Actually, no. Ah, friend of mine who lives in New Orleans is ah, black woman who is a descendant, um, and was called to Georgetown to share about her family’s history. And it was a beautiful moment, they said, and community together, talking about the history, talk, acknowledging the contributions of her ancestors. And there’s a big write up in the paper. And, you know, this has been a very ah healing, I think Ford, the university, and but also front for my friend Karen, who is now having that You know that recognition that the contributions of her ancestors.

[00:43:25.68] spk_3:
You talk a good bit about the reconciliation process in South Africa. Um, Canada, You

[00:43:26.14] spk_1:
got to get the book way. Can’t. Can’t tell all

[00:43:28.56] spk_3:
these stories. I mean, I know what listeners I know. I know you love stories as much as I do, but

[00:43:32.32] spk_1:
there’s not enough time to just get the damn book.

[00:43:34.26] spk_3:
Just goto de colonizing both dot com For Pete’s sake. You

[00:43:41.40] spk_1:
go right now. If you’re listening Live, Where are you? But Pepsi? Schenectady, Uh, Nottingham, Maryland. Just go to

[00:43:47.80] spk_3:
de colonizing wealth dot com. Um, okay. Listening. You talk about mm. Empathic and generative listening.

[00:45:07.26] spk_4:
Right. So, you know, often when we when we moved to a process like this, we feel bad. We’ve apologized. Um, the default, sort of like dominant culture way of being is like, Okay, I’m done with that. I’m going to move forward. And so But before you move for an act, you just need to Paul’s toe, actually. Listen, tony, listen and learn. So thio for nonprofits, You know, I ran a non profit. I’ve worked in flame 34 14 years. When I asked non profits, What is the number one thing that you wish funders would do differently. The response is always I just wish they would listen because there’s something about having resource is money, privilege and power. When we enter the room, there’s a power dynamic where we automatically feel that we can control the air space and we have an agenda. And on the non profit, they’re gonna be responsive to what we want. And you know that often is the case. But the best way to really build a relationship with folks where there is ah difference in power and privileges is to actually stop and listen. Put aside your own assumptions and try as best you can to put yourself in their shoes to understand their experience. And their history is just gonna make you a better person. I feel like listening is a human right. We all want to be. We all deserve to be heard. And so that is just something that we have to keep reminding folks who have privilege is thio two to stop at times toe also, Listeninto let others be hard.

[00:45:57.50] spk_3:
Yeah, put aside the white savior complex. Absolutely. Yeah, listening. We talked about we talked about that a lot on the show in terms of donors. Andi, I know you’re next. You’re next step is relating versus being transactional. And that’s that’s That’s the beginning of a relationship, is you said, you know, listening. Genuine hearing, um, to whether it’s donors or potential potential grantees. Um, there there’s a lot to be learned. Goes back to the value of bringing, representing the communities that you’re that you’re serving. Um, Okay. So relation You want us to Ah, you want to relate?

[00:46:01.93] spk_1:
Let me ask

[00:46:05.23] spk_3:
you. Ah, you read, um, how to win friends and influence. People say dozens of times. Doesn’t I have trouble reading a dozen pages in a book? You’ve read one book dozens of times. Uh, what do you take away time after reading? Ah, Dale Carnegie’s book. Dozens of times.

[00:46:19.68] spk_4:
Well, you know, I still have an original copy from that. I, um I stole from the library of Ah. My mom was a domestic worker and she was carrying for ah, frail, elder elderly man handle this vast library. So ended up with this little book that you

[00:46:34.86] spk_3:
stole from an infirm.

[00:46:36.32] spk_4:
I believe. You know, I feel terrible about book Haunts me to this day. So this is a public.

[00:46:42.17] spk_1:
Didn’t even think to leave, like, 20 bucks or something on the table and have

[00:47:09.42] spk_4:
it if I had it at that. All right, Um, so hopefully this is my my way of giving back. This is my reparations for for that that wrong. But, you know, and the wouldn’t take away from me in that book. Ah, is ah is really kind of connected to relating and listening. Um, is when you’re when you’re talking to folks. People just really want to be heard. So mostly you should listen. Um, and if you actually just listen more than talk people going to think that you’re a great friend like, Well, Edgar, that was such a nice time with you. But even if I did

[00:47:22.68] spk_1:
it right, and so yeah,

[00:47:23.33] spk_4:
it’s really about listening and letting others feel that they’re important because they are, um, you know, we I think people just feel so invisible these days that just by giving people that moment of feeling hurt and connecting with something that they’re interested in, it’s just gonna really take you much further and building a relationship

[00:47:45.83] spk_3:
and stop the transactional, the transactional thinking You

[00:47:46.00] spk_1:
have you have an

[00:47:50.78] spk_3:
example of? Ah, um a ah, like building design. Like office design kitchens. You’d love to see a kitchen in the center of offices.

[00:48:08.34] spk_4:
Yeah, you know, so sort of like these ideas of, like, the colonizing virus infects every aspect of our community. So, yes, even the way buildings were designed, especially buildings that are financial institutions. Think about what banks look like when you walk in and with with all the marble and, you know, ground hard edges. Absolutely. Foundation offices where you have to go through five levels of security to get in as if we’re as if the millions of dollars were in the office, right? And so we just threw even how we design our offices. And, um, you know, the way they appear can be super intimidating for folks who are coming in who need access to resources.

[00:48:40.37] spk_3:
Take a break. When we come back, we’re gonna talk about organizational designed to instead of just office designed

[00:49:34.86] spk_2:
time for our last break in the new year. Might you want to build relationships with journalists who matter to you so that when news breaks and you want to be part of the public conversation you’ve got your best shot turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists, especially in the non profit space and other media, of course. Bloggers. Um uh, what were the other examples of media besides generals? Um, of course, any of the, uh, webinars that you could your expertise could be portrayed in webinars seminars, conferences. They can build those relationships. That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. They’re at turn hyphen to dot ceo. We’ve got butt loads, more time for de colonizing wealth.

[00:49:38.62] spk_3:
Now, we’ve got several more minutes for de colonizing wealth again. Just go to de colonizing both dotcom get the thing, get the book. Um, in terms of designing organizations ah, more egalitarian. You’d like to see

[00:49:52.48] spk_4:
absolutely so one of the steps the book is represent. And would

[00:49:56.54] spk_1:
you look

[00:49:56.95] spk_4:
at the, uh, the demographics of the nonprofit sector and especially in foundations that part this sector? We still have a long ways to go with diversity, particularly when you look at the board of directors and the CEO positions. Folks who really hold power organizations. So

[00:50:14.18] spk_1:
what are

[00:50:25.38] spk_4:
the one of the ideas that I put forth in the book is that foundations should have a requirement that at least 51% or at least 50% of their boards to reflect the communities they serve. This would drastically change what you know, shake up what the seats on the bus look like. But this isn’t this far from what is required of many nonprofits. Funders actually are requiring this of their non profit that their funding, Um, and many cover organizations that receive government funding federal funding have these types of requirements that the folks who sit on the boards must be folks who are benefiting from the service’s of theirs. Non profits

[00:50:53.40] spk_3:
again be representative. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s a That’s a stretch. 51%.

[00:50:58.48] spk_4:
It’s a stretch. It’s a stretch. But, you know, um, the conversation has has been zero about it. So I figured, you know, if we put something a bold vision out there to help us imagine what’s possible, maybe we’ll get a little bit further down the road.

[00:51:12.01] spk_1:
And there are some

[00:51:12.47] spk_3:
examples use like the Novo Foundation in the book. They have, ah, women’s building that they’re that they’re repurposing some old warehouse or something. Turning tow this building and and the decisions being made by women who are gonna be using the building.

[00:51:56.45] spk_4:
Absolutely. There’s some great examples of foundations and funds that are really putting these values into practice in their work. Novo is a foundation. I really appreciate Jennifer and Peter Buffett, the founders of Doesn’t over foundation wrote the Ford to my book. And they are folks that you if you get to know them, you can see that they have done this work. Um, and it shows up in how they give. They are a foundation that absolutely sits in community and listens Thio folks who are impacted by especially women and girls, which is the issue they really care about. And they fund in a way that is responsive to what they really need versus what the foundation’s agenda might be.

[00:52:07.49] spk_1:
Is it no vote that funds

[00:52:08.62] spk_3:
for five years or seven years guaranteed you cite this in the book, no matter how much trouble you’re having in year 123 you’re going to be funded for five or seven years for their initial commitment,

[00:52:25.53] spk_4:
right? Right. And that type of long term commitment is Ah, you know something that that is the best type of funding. You know, folks can be you can focus on building a relationship versus oh, I’ve got to meet these certain objectives so I can keep getting this money year after year. And so to be relieved of that, that pressure of thinking about where am I gonna you know how I’m gonna pay the salaries next year really allows folks have the freedom to think about the actual work that they’re doing the communities

[00:53:00.35] spk_3:
and planning and comm plans that are being one only one or two years. Um, s so we kind of mish mash together, you know, relating and representing, um, investing.

[00:53:33.04] spk_4:
So investing is really a call to philanthropy. To think about using all of its resource is for, um, for the public. Good, right. And so we are not going to be a sector that achieves equity that that is really moving the needle on issues. If we’re supporting with, the 5% are right hand. Really good work. You know, Michigan, late at work. But in our left hand, we are investing 95% of our resource is in industries and causes that are extractive that are, you know, really cancelling out the positive of our resource is so, you know, they’re great foundations like the Nathan Cummings Foundation, for example, who just recently declared that 100% of their assets, their entire corpus, is going to be used and support their mission.

[00:53:51.22] spk_3:
Yeah, on again, other examples in the book and, uh, we just have about a minute or so before we have to wrap up, Actually, um, so talk about your final step, which is

[00:54:29.31] spk_4:
the final step is repair all of us who were philanthropist or givers. And as we’re getting close to the end of this year, we’re all philanthropists. I’m supporting non profits in our communities. Think about how we can use money as medicine. How can we give in a way that is helping to repair the harm that has been done by colonization and in this country. And so think about looking your personal portfolio. Are you giving to at least one organization of color to support grassroots leadership? So reach across support folks who may not look like you invest in ways that are helping to unite us versus thinking about some of the traditional ways of giving that have not been, you know, along this line of thinking are exercising these types of values.

[00:54:47.44] spk_3:
Okay, so I’ll give you last 30 seconds, Uh, in the way that the way I learned that natives are the original philanthropists was by What? You what? You talk about your mom?

[00:54:57.70] spk_4:
Yes. So, you know, I think a lot of giving when we look at giving in this country the biggest philanthropy hours, philanthropist or fix, we’re giving the most highest percentage of their incomes. Incomes are actually poor people. And so I do you talk about my mom in the book who, um, was, uh, you know, is actually very low income. And but yet she gave to our community and how to run a ministry out of our church to support Children.

[00:55:22.40] spk_1:
Yes, the bus ministry, the bus ministry

[00:55:24.24] spk_3:
just got got to get the book. You got to read

[00:55:25.63] spk_4:
the last ministry. And so is the giving of time. Treasure and talent not just resource is. And so all of us who are caring for our communities and ways that are, um, you know, through love is we’re all philanthropists.

[00:55:37.74] spk_3:
Get the book. Go to de colonizing wealth dot com. Edgar Villanueva Thank you so much. Thank you

[00:55:42.24] spk_4:
for having me on tony.

[00:55:43.11] spk_2:
Real pleasure. Next week. Personalized Philanthropy With Steve Myers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com But

[00:55:58.88] spk_1:
Coco Mat in

[00:55:59.36] spk_2:
Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Ah, creative producers

[00:56:35.02] spk_1:
Claire Meyer off Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great

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