Vidya Moorthy: Planned Giving For Eastern Donors
Cultural and familial differences between East and West raise issues for Planned Giving fundraising. Vidya Moorthy from Clural LLC and Bassett Education India, raises our consciousness.
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Transcript for 608_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20220912.mp3
Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of two targa. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of a target to turn to 22 to turn to torta no pia, I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of tutor to know pia if I saw that you missed this week’s show planned giving for Eastern donors, cultural and familial differences between east and west raise issues for planned giving, fundraising. Vidya murthy from chloral LLC and Bassett Education India raises our consciousness on Tony’s take to scott stein’s new album. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper here is planned giving for Eastern donors. It’s a pleasure to welcome to nonprofit radio video murthy. She is founder of austin texas based chloral C L U R A L L L C and C. E. O of Bassett Education India Video is a communications specialist. D. Eye specialist and the specialist in cross cultural training, boundary crossing tactics, media relations and interpersonal communication. The company is at chloral dot C. O and you’ll find her on linkedin video. Welcome to nonprofit radio [00:02:23.84] spk_1:
thank you so much. tony Happy to be here [00:02:41.56] spk_0:
it’s a pleasure. Glad to have you this is a very interesting topic to me of course, because we’re talking about planned giving, but in a culture that I am not acquainted with, so I’ve got a lot of learning to do from you um before we go into the, all the cultural differences that, that I want to talk about, let’s define the eastern world for folks and for me, so I know what, what regions or what countries, you know, we’re talking about. [00:02:58.65] spk_1:
Yeah, sure. So I think that’s a great place to start. I think when we talk about the eastern world we’re really talking everything that is east of africa and east of europe. So you’re talking the Middle East and then further on your talking china India sri lanka, um, you know all the way up until Singapore and Japan. [00:03:21.56] spk_0:
Okay, Alright. So it is, it’s fair to lump japan and India together in our, in what we’re talking about today. [00:03:45.44] spk_1:
Yeah. And the reason that, that I, that I think it might be okay, tony is uh, you know when you look at it at a, at a granular level is Alabama the same as California. No, not at all. But it is possible to paint all of America in broad strokes and I’m going to try to use those similar broad strokes with reference to the Eastern culture. The Eastern philosophy. [00:03:54.61] spk_0:
Okay, okay. And Middle East as well you said [00:03:57.19] spk_1:
yes, Middle East as well for [00:04:03.79] spk_0:
sure. Alright, so we’ll talk in broad strokes and uh you know if I if I transgress and say something. You know if I try to draw a conclusion that’s inappropriate, you will you’ll cut me off at the knees, right? [00:04:10.34] spk_1:
I doubt that’ll happen. But yes, [00:04:20.02] spk_0:
now now there’s a good chance you gotta you gotta lackluster house at best, so you’ll be sure to stop me if I draw some conclusions or something that it’s just wrong. Just dead [00:04:24.84] spk_1:
wrong, [00:04:26.63] spk_0:
please. I’m counting on you, I’m counting on you to do that. All [00:04:29.20] spk_1:
right. [00:04:43.33] spk_0:
And I’ll of course I will try not to make a fool of myself as well. Alright. Uh I usually I I often I often succeeded that just often. So patriarchy, patriarchy is very important. What what do we need to know about the role of men in these cultures? [00:05:14.22] spk_1:
Well again with reference to broad strokes, I think patriarchy is a familial structure, it’s an authority structure and it’s an organizational structure and the power of the male voice is not something that can be easily underestimated in the Eastern society. Um I think that it has a significant amount of both influence and control with reference to all kinds of decisions of all kinds of personal and professional decisions and I think particularly with respect to plan giving um I think the male voice kind of dominates those decisions in the Eastern world. [00:05:38.57] spk_0:
Okay. Yeah, go ahead more more. I hope [00:06:09.77] spk_1:
just one more point. I also want to kind of set the context that in several Eastern cultures. Um, the daughter in a family tony always gets married and leaves and walks into her husband’s house and her husband’s family. The Sun, however, stays back to carry on the family legacy and the family name and oftentimes his wife moves in with him and his parents. Business decisions, personal decisions are all just continued therefore from father to son and generation to generation. So a patriarch passes on his power and control to his son and [00:06:26.21] spk_0:
like [00:06:26.68] spk_1:
it or not, that kind of dictates the preference for the male child within the eastern family [00:06:33.45] spk_0:
unit. Now everything we’re talking about today is this likely to be, uh, to be continued in folks who have immigrated to the US. [00:07:32.00] spk_1:
Uh, I think the Western lifestyle is so powerful that it does seep through the walls of homes and it does tend to influence, um, and bring upon Western influences into Eastern homes. Um, I think basically the responsibility and the close knit structure of the family does stay together, but, but our immigrants families, you know, living together with their sons and daughters in law in multigenerational homes as is very common in the East. I doubt it. I doubt it because that’s where work takes folks right. I mean, my son might work in in, in California and, and therefore he cannot continue to live with me. And, and so I don’t see that system being perpetuated in immigrant families when they exist in, in, in Western worlds, but certainly the emotion is there certainly the sense of responsibility and the closer knit family structure is very much intact [00:08:03.15] spk_0:
and, and still male dominated, you, you believe, but still, so patriarch quickly organized, not, not physically organized around patriarchy with, with the, with the wife of the sun moving in, not physically located, but, but the, the concept still prevailing. You think, [00:08:31.24] spk_1:
oh absolutely, I think it does prevail. And I think that while I say that I must use a word of caution as well because just as with every generational difference, you know, even in America, even amongst families here, there’s a significant amount of difference in the last two generations. So I think we need to allow for that. Um, and, and, and know that, you know, there are going to be some families which kind of morph into more Western structures, but essentially at the core of it, the patriarchal voice is a very important, controlling, influencing voice. [00:09:15.89] spk_0:
It sounds like the lesson is, you know, no, no, your donor and know know their family, you know, so we can, we were here raising awareness of what might exist in a, in a, in an immigrant family from, from the east, um, or might not. So, you know, for, for fundraisers, you know, we can raise your consciousness, you need to be aware of what the, what the dynamics are in a, in a donor and donor family that that your your you might be talking to. [00:09:20.79] spk_1:
Oh absolutely. And I think that once you understand the nuances of the donor family and and whose voice is perhaps the loudest and what their key motivators are for any kind of giving. I think then you are on the verge of being able to design an effective approach strategy [00:10:08.64] spk_0:
of course, write what moves them uh you know, programmatic program wise of course. But just in terms of, you know, where the decision making is, you might be talking to a female donor who might actually be, you know, uh in a in a marriage where the husband makes the decisions around finance as you were saying or you might not or it might it might be that the western culture is more seeped in in that family. So that’s what I’m saying. You know, you want to know the dynamics of the family you’re you’re working with. [00:10:14.80] spk_1:
Oh, absolutely. [00:10:16.20] spk_0:
Okay. [00:10:17.11] spk_1:
And while you know, insight into that might be difficult. My my tip would be to pick up on a lot of nonverbal cues and kind of read between the lines when you’re interacting with these families. You know, sometimes [00:10:32.24] spk_0:
that’s that’s juicy. Okay, what are some nonverbal clues, clues, [00:11:19.45] spk_1:
clues for example, you know, you approach the home of the donor, you set up a meeting and whether they see you in the office or you see them in their home, Um, you’ll get and pick up a lot of cues in it. So for example, sometimes the wives may or may not even join the conversation and, and then you know, instantly that you know who, whose voice kind of dominates. Sometimes you might notice that as you walk into their office, you don’t see their wife’s office right next to his, you know, so you know, that perhaps she’s not engaged in that same line of work or you know, the responses seem seem to bear a certain unilateral authority rather than saying, Hey, I love talking with you, Let me talk to my wife and I’ll get back. He might, let’s say, you know, yeah, let’s do it done. And he’ll sign up right then and there or say no right then and there. So so you can kind of pick up and even when you’re talking to the wife, she might, you know, say this sounds great. It’s a very important, cause I suggest you talk to my husband, I’m traveling. I’m not even gonna be in town, but you can take it up with him. You know, and then you know that she’s probably not part of the routine decision making engine of the family. [00:13:47.56] spk_0:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. I saw on linkedin, somebody defined crisis communications as applying to anything that’s out of the ordinary, not necessarily something bad just outside the day to day routine. And she used the example of dignitaries visiting her non profit obviously delightful, wonderful, great opportunity. Um, I can see, you know that sort of definition, but uh, because because it requires a crisis level response, even though it’s terrific, you wanna make sure, you know, you get the word out broadly leading up to it and, and during the event and after the event and you want to have that messaging being consistent and on brand and of course you have to manage the event itself. Um, you wanna tie in your own dignitaries, like your board and your major donors, major volunteers, Right folks that are your, your insiders. So, uh, maybe call it a positive crisis. You could think of it as as that. And another example might be a major anniversary, could be a positive crisis. So like your 20th or your 50th, this is all to say. That turn to, can help you with communications for these positive crises, great things that are happening that are way out of the ordinary. They can help you out with the messaging around all that because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to planned giving for Eastern donors. You mentioned business to, uh, the, the, uh, I think you’re referring to the sun taking on the business of the of the father. Can you say a little more about that, that prevalence. [00:14:46.12] spk_1:
Well, a lot of the times with reference, I think to to indian immigrant families and to Eastern immigrant families here in the United States, um, I would say that the fathers who moved here, let’s say in the eighties or in the nineties, you know, they worked tremendously hard tony to set up these businesses. Right. And, and that’s how they build better futures for themselves and their families. And so chances are that a significant portion of their Children are looking at taking over these organizations that their parents have created and along with inheriting not just the business, they tend to inherit the culture and the organizational philosophy that their parents intended when they started the organization. Right. So, so they take it upon themselves as a matter of, of responsibility to continue to toe that line and and to be able to make sure that they are indeed perpetuating what their parents most likely their fathers intended. [00:15:02.34] spk_0:
Okay, so, so there is a responsibility across the generations, [00:15:07.23] spk_1:
no [00:15:09.38] spk_0:
doubt. Okay, [00:15:10.08] spk_1:
no doubt. [00:15:10.87] spk_0:
And that applies to daughters as well. You said, you said Children, [00:15:25.02] spk_1:
of course, of course there’s numerous instances of, of super intelligent, empowered women that have done magic with what their fathers or mothers have created. And and that’s really heartening to see. And in fact, I know of several stories like that and those are the encouraging ones that, that I think a lot of other upcoming entrepreneurs and business women look up to as examples. [00:15:49.28] spk_0:
You you mentioned when we were talking alone something about, you know synchronizing generational giving what what what what what’s what’s this about? [00:16:58.46] spk_1:
So with reference to synchronization I think when Eastern families raise their kids um they are caught in a duality of their original cultures and also wanting to adopt, adapt and fit into the Western cultures. So every household kind of creates a marriage between the Eastern and the western world’s and picks values that they really try to instill and pass on into their sons and their daughters. They try to set boundaries on you know when they’re really young, you know saying this is what is acceptable to us or this is not acceptable to to us and they define and pick and choose which Western values can permeate through their walls into their homes and by doing so they try to sync up with their kids on their own values, what they believe in their approach towards money, their approach towards giving towards contribution to society. Um and and values that that they all follow in their personal lives as well in terms of whom you marry, how you spend money, how you communicate with those around you and maintain a social circle along with all of these. I think for sure you know the sense of giving back is also communicated and synchronized generation to generation. [00:17:27.71] spk_0:
What can you generalize about thinking around supporting charitable work. You know I mean you know in a lot of other countries that doesn’t even exist very much, but but here in the U. S. You know, what what can you what can you generalize about support to to charity? [00:20:25.88] spk_1:
What can I generalize? That’s such an interesting question, tony because uh you know, and this is in the Eastern world, in the Eastern world. If I were to draw generalizations, not here in the United States, but in the Eastern world, I would think that there are broadly three primary factors that drive planned giving in the Eastern world. It could be won a very heartfelt feeling for the cause itself. You know, you have you have philanthropists of of various economic capabilities who are trying to do their part towards the cost that they feel passionately about? And that’s the human drive, right? So, so that’s common for everybody across the planet. If you can you believe in a cause the humanness and you calls out to you and you give um in the Eastern world, a lot of plan giving is out of political pressure and and you do have to wade through through a lot of murky areas in order to navigate. I think those regions, because a lot of plan giving is very political in the Eastern world and and instead of a direct contribution to a political leader, he might say, hey, you know, can you build this park in this constituency or can be create a center of art in this constituency from from his constituency. So it’s it’s very politically driven. And third, I think is certainly the social status that comes with being known as a donor for a visible cause. And the social status in the Eastern world earns you so much in terms of almost a demigod kind of a status if you are that visible and if your donation is that visible. And I think in terms of generalizations, if I were to take these three and try to see if I can paint the Western donors from Eastern heritage in this same light, is it possible? I would say that only two of them are probably more applicable. A small percentage of them, I think would do it for uh, for political, the reason is a very small percentage, but broadly either they do it because they believe in the cause and they feel like it’s their turn to give back because they’ve crossed continents, rebuild their lives and, and now they feel almost a sense of social responsibility to give back. And also the second part that motivates them would be certainly the visibility in society to be seen as an immigrant who is successful up to the point where they’re being noticed for their philanthropic efforts. And, and guess that’s where, you know, the curve of life would take most immigrants to be in a position of visible donor to be respected for it to be acknowledged for it [00:20:49.91] spk_0:
very interesting. So, you know, lessons for us in in stewardship and and public acknowledgement of the public acknowledgement as a part of stewardship so that the person feels this and and enjoys this elevated social status. [00:21:33.08] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I think you know, when, when you approach donors, you know, if you can um, if you can give them incentives for increased visibility. So if you say, hey, you know, we’ll interview you and we’ll put a link on our website or there’s a plaque with your name on it or you know, we will have this section dedicated to you and and your name and picture will be visible here or we will announce this donation in this forum, whatever you can do or if there is a kind of a yearbook, almost that that you can include them in and their name and photograph or an interview with them that talks about, you know why they are giving to this cause and what their drivers were and make it a very personalized story that they can tell through you to the world. Um, I think all of them would be excellent motivators for them to give [00:22:00.48] spk_0:
you even mentioned the word demigod in in in their own culture, being seen as a, as a demigod. [00:22:10.21] spk_1:
Oh yes, and that’s a very interesting phenomenon and I think that’s very [00:22:14.15] spk_0:
specific to the eastern [00:22:15.46] spk_1:
world. [00:22:16.54] spk_0:
Yeah, [00:23:00.36] spk_1:
because you know organizations, the larger ones, especially if you take you know the non Gardena House of business or the even bigger Ambani House of business back in India, you know, they actually have a day called Founder’s Day during which all the employees in the organization, literally thousands of them, they celebrate, you know, the founder’s birthday and there is a large photograph and their garlands around it and people bow and their flowers and they recognize his, his contribution not just in founding the organization but recognizing his philanthropic efforts. Um, sometimes, you know, they would go as far as not even wear slippers or shoes right Up to the photograph, just like you would in a, in a temple, you know, and that’s why I call it the demigod status and, and it’s not artificial, it’s not a put on, they really feel it from their heart. They feel like they owe their sustenance to this individual who started this organization 50 years ago or 80 years ago. [00:26:34.48] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies, technology is an investment. You’re investing in staff productivity because you know how unproductive folks can be when, uh, technology is not doing what it’s supposed to do. You’re investing in security obviously, um, donor relationships because you’re preserving, giving histories and actions, people’s preferences, their own personal info, uh, their attendance at events. Um, you’re investing in your organization’s sustainability. So I hope you see tech as an investment and not an expense and 4D can help you invest wisely see how it all fits together, help you make your tech investment decisions doing it smartly you can check them out on the listener landing page for help with your tech investing at tony dot M A slash four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s time for Tony’s take two scott. Stein has a new album, I love it. You know, scott of course, he’s the composer of cheap red wine, the show’s theme song, it opens and closes every single show. You know it, his new album is uphill. I’ve been listening and uh hoping that you will listen. I’m suggesting giving him giving him a listen for the new album, my favorite song is the last one on the album. So even though he calls the album Uphill, he ends with the song, It’s a good life, which is the one that he premiered on the 600 show. Uh and I love his lyrics like don’t just stick to what, you know, let it fly and watch it go. Of course I’m not gonna bother trying to sing. Uh you’ll be grateful, you are grateful. Trust me. Another one that I love also from that song uh from it’s a it’s a Good Life no matter how you sing your song, there’s always someone singing along. So you know, I love scott. Um I’ve been using his song for many, many years. Um I’m enjoying his new album. Uphill. You can sample every song on the album if you go to scott stein music dot com. So I’m asking you please give give scott a listen at Scott Stein music dot com for his brand new album. Uphill, That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for planned giving for Eastern donors with Vidya murthy. Let’s talk about the one, something very concrete. The beliefs around the word death, death is is not not a good word. [00:28:32.38] spk_1:
Yeah, I think, you know, if you spoke to anybody tony in the, in the Eastern world, um, generally Eastern philosophy, I think it lends itself to the fact that words are very powerful and uh, you know, most spirituality or different kinds of religions, I think they focus on energy and consciousness as opposed to a book or as opposed to uh rules of commandments, right? That’s what most easter religions are built on. So this is not just with reference to Hinduism, but it extends to buddhism or taoism or organism where they believe in the power of words. So, you they also believe then that what you talk about manifests in life. So what you don’t want to be doing certainly is approaching a person and saying, okay, so after your death, how can we ensure that the system of giving continues because that’s just too direct for them and it’s too much in your face. And it’s not something that I think people like to discuss openly as factual as it might be, as certain as it might be, they’re very watchful with, With using words in that context. So when you approach, I think a donor from the east, you really clearly want to stay away from using those kinds of words which talk about, you know, the term in al itty of life you want to really talk about, you know, how can we, how can we ensure that that what you’re doing continues for the next 80 years? That’s probably a better way to say it. And it’s just a choice of words. [00:29:41.11] spk_0:
Right, Okay. And that’s very consistent with what I teach folks about talking about planned giving, which is that it is not a death conversation, although the word death may work its way in, you know, someone, uh, someone from the West may very well say, well, you know, I’ve already got my, my plans for my death, you know, laid out or you know, they may bring the word up. Um, but your, your point is that, you know, dealing with someone from the East you don’t want to. Um, and again, that’s consistent with what I teach, which is that planned giving is the, the, the life of the nonprofit, the sustainability of the nonprofits work and mission and values for decades and generations to come. And listeners may have heard me use that exact phrase decades and generations. Um, so, you know, you’re not talking about the person’s death, you’re talking about the life of the nonprofit, the survivability of the nonprofit. Okay. But interesting about just the word, you know, or around. Yeah, the words death dying, uh, you know, they should be avoided, which they don’t really belong in a plane giving conversation to begin with unless the donor brings it up. [00:30:28.20] spk_1:
Sure, sure. Um, I just like to, you know, throw light on two different aspects and maybe this is an appropriate time. tony is, I think when you are trying to, um, talk to and attract donors, um, one, I think the western way of doing business is very transactional as opposed to the relational way of doing business in the Eastern world. And I think kind of softening the edges is, is a great place to start. So you know, when you, when you talk to a potential donor, maybe you can engage in some conversation about their family. Maybe you can engage in some conversation, you can ask questions about, about what their kids are doing and try to paint and present the picture that you’re not just doing this as a transaction between a donor and your organization, but rather this is a family that’s committing because they believe in the cause and position it based on the relationship that you seek to develop with the [00:31:36.30] spk_0:
family. Yeah, I mean, these conversations are never the first time you’ve met the person, You know, these, these conversations take place over time. You’re talking to folks who are already committed and loyal to the organization. They’ve demonstrated that commitment and loyalty through their giving history and you know, it’s, it’s really, of course, as you’re saying, it’s, it’s relational, it develops over time to, to the point where you believe, you know, it’s a good, it’s a good time, the right time for an individual donor or family to raise the idea of a gift in their, in their long term plans. Yeah. [00:31:40.20] spk_1:
And I think you’re right in terms of just warming up to it and then adding that personal touch. And because sometimes I think the western way of doing business, you minimize references to a person’s personal life. And I guess what I’m suggesting is talk about that personal life more. [00:32:01.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Getting to know the person, getting to know their family [00:32:06.35] spk_1:
and [00:32:06.49] spk_0:
that and that is going to happen over over time. Right? [00:32:09.14] spk_1:
Yes. Over time. Of course. [00:32:11.90] spk_0:
Um, what else would you, what would you like to talk about around this? [00:32:29.76] spk_1:
Oh, yeah, sure. So I think, um, you know, I’d like to go a little bit into detail now, tony If it’s okay with you to talk about the different kinds of family structures that exist. And, and uh, would you think that that’s an okay thing to talk about at this point, [00:32:34.89] spk_0:
please? I opened the door. Yeah, I’m not going to say no. Now, I just, I just opened the door for you. [00:34:56.44] spk_1:
Fantastic. Fantastic. So when I was researching this, I was very intrigued by this. and because I don’t think that immigrant families here who have lived in the US for generations, um are all homogeneous in their structure. And I went into a little bit more detail into finding out how our families organized here. And, and this is not my own research. It was something that was put out by Merrill private wealth. And they classify families as as essentially five different types of families. And the first type are individualists, families which are a lot of Western families as well. Nuclear units that that function mostly in isolation. Um then you have connected families and connected families. Um they’re very much nuclear units, but they stay in touch, They might meet once or twice a year. Um they might touch base once every few weeks. And those are again very similar, I think, to many families here in the Western world, then you have the third kind of families which are called tribal families. And tribal families tend to stay more connected. Um and they tend to know what’s happening in, in their daily lives, you know, so they might touch base certainly once a week and say, hey, what’s going on? And and even distant relatives stay in touch in the tribal family setup. Um then you have economic families and economic families. Um They own assets together. They might have a joint source of income and and family economics I think makes them one larger common unit and and the fifth kind of family is an integrated family where, you know, it combines the tribal and economic structures. They’re super close. Um, and mostly patriarchal and they have the money flow tied into decision making tied into raising kids, raising multiple generations and they all live under the same roof. And I think when you identify very clearly what kind of family structure a potential donor, um, lives in, it might be very helpful to you and, and critical input to you as you devise your strategy for approaching the donor. And so you could align [00:35:22.53] spk_0:
it. Are we most likely to see folks from the Eastern cultures that we’re talking about being aligned in sort of the last one? The economic type family structure. [00:35:51.83] spk_1:
Yeah, they’re mostly either tribal families, economic families or integrated families. And you will find that for example, if there’s a family of positions, um, you know, which is very common from the Eastern world, you’ll find that, that, you know, certainly they, our tribal families, they stay in touch, they talk about money and business, they might own assets to grow together. If they’re three brothers, you know, they make joint investments, um, they even make sure they support their nieces and nephews, not just their own Children. And so when you approach these families, then it might help to have a broader strategy of visibility, not just for the person you’re directly engaging with, but for their brothers or sisters as well. [00:36:27.90] spk_0:
There are times of day that are better to talk about long term planning and finances than other times of the day in the cultures we’re talking about. Can you flush that out please? [00:37:42.29] spk_1:
Yes, that’s an interesting concept and and if I may, you know this is a kind of a personal story, tony is when we were, when we used to live in in India and it was a multigenerational home. We had four generations in the same house, but the elders in the family would often discourage us from having either banking counselors or insurance counselors in our homes during the evening hours after 5 30 to at least 7 30 or eight p.m. And the belief was that that that is a pious time of the day when when all goodness walks into your home and it’s probably not the best time to be sitting and having a discussion on insurance or giving or what happens after you die. So they would actually shoo away invest insurance agents who would knock after 55 30 now. No, no fault of the insurance agent. You know, they’re just too trying to come by your place because it’s after work hours and they think that that might be a time that’s good for you to talk to them because you’re done with your work. So my suggestion is probably just during business hours is always the best to talk about um you know, plan giving, especially if you’re discussing, you know, what’s going to happen with generations to come with reference to the [00:38:10.44] spk_0:
giving. [00:38:11.81] spk_1:
Yeah. And it’s nobody wants to sit in most eastern worlds talk about unpleasant things between five and 7 in the evening. [00:38:19.82] spk_0:
Okay. [00:38:20.87] spk_1:
Yeah. [00:38:21.65] spk_0:
Planned giving is not unpleasant, but of [00:38:24.23] spk_1:
course it’s not. Of course it’s not. But God forbid, you know the word debt. But [00:38:56.51] spk_0:
we are we are talking about money and finance and and you, you know, you might be talking about rates of income from charitable gift annuities or you might be talking about a gift from a life insurance policy. Again, this goes back to know your donor. No, the family, but we’re raising consciousness here about what you might, what you might, uh, what you might face. So be aware, be aware you have something called the, uh, answering the call of Oneness from humanity. It sounds very aspirational. What is that? [00:40:25.15] spk_1:
The Eastern world is a very trying world tony in many places. There’s a lot more competition for someone I think, who has not seen what the race for survival is. It can be very humbling and answering the call to to human Good, I think is something that strikes at the very heart of many donors of Eastern origin. And while they live work and play in the Western world, I think many donors are more inclined to give to a human cause that contributes, let’s say to to Children or to senior citizens amongst us or to those with physical challenges or mental challenges, something that improves humans and families and gives them access to better education, better futures generally. Again, broad strokes, they tend to connect more with these causes as opposed to causes that let’s say, promote art or, you know, if or promote, let’s say automobiles or promote music, even sometimes, you know, because they more relate and many a time they are witnesses to two stories of struggle and, and success within their own families. They know how little their fathers came from or how little their grandparents had and what helped them. So they look at plan giving as a way to give back and which is why I think human causes, um, attract them more [00:40:53.72] spk_0:
because [00:40:54.38] spk_1:
they’ve seen poverty and helplessness most of the time from a whole another level than, than what is visible here in the west. [00:41:07.11] spk_0:
Okay, [00:41:17.84] spk_1:
so I think I’m talking about what causes appeal to them more and the reason that it appeals to them. Yeah. [00:41:20.00] spk_0:
Um, what else would you, what would you like to make folks aware of? We haven’t talked about yet. [00:42:40.31] spk_1:
Um, well, as as I think we continue this discussion, I would, I would like to focus on some strategies that I think would be effective when you’re reaching out. Right. Um, I think, you know, to, it kind of touches upon some of the things that we’ve already spoken about. tony But um, one, I think the human angle is something that you should certainly reach out up front point number two Is the social status that comes with giving and three be sure you talk about generational impact or the impact on the broader family structure, not just on the donor himself, but with the 34, 10 people that encompass his immediate family, which might mean his brother, her sister, her aunt, just a few more people apart from just that one individual. And when you talk about generational impact, the human angle social status, um, I think then, and you’re sensitive about, you know, who’s making these decisions and who’s calling the shots. I think you’re really onto something in terms of being able to make them want to give to your cause? [00:43:13.58] spk_0:
Let’s flush out that generational impact because that, that sounds like something that may be a stretch or maybe I’m just not conceiving of it correctly. So how can we, if we’re talking about a long term gift, a planned gift with someone. Um, I mean there are, there are planned giving methods that can include other people like charitable gift annuities and charitable trusts. There could be value for other family members that way beyond the donor. Um, is that, is that the kind of thing, you know, you’re talking about, are you referring to financial impact for siblings and, and other generations or are you talking about something broader than than a financial benefit, [00:43:58.89] spk_1:
certainly broader than a financial benefit. tony I think what I’m, what I mean is if you’re looking at a charitable trust that composes the whole, the broader family unit, which is very common in Eastern families. And I suspect in the Western as well, obviously just because of its of the benefits of the financial benefits of having one, you are talking about not just the monetary component and the benefits through generations, but the val Values that you’re able to pass on from generation to generation and what you want your family to be remembered by what you want, your son to grow up and stand for or your daughter to say, Hey, you know, my mom did this 20 years ago and now I want to do it for the same organization and feel a sense of connectedness and pride. So you’re passing on the emotion, you’re passing on the value and you’re passing on the monetary commitment and the benefit. [00:44:32.18] spk_0:
All right. All helpful. Okay. Um, what do you think should we, should we wrap it up there or something else? Is there anything pounding like, why didn’t he ask me this question? Anything else? Um, not [00:45:24.17] spk_1:
that not that anything comes to, comes to my mind, but I think that, um, you know, just being sensitive to, uh, to the cultural impediments of fear, complexity and inconsistency. Um, in terms of, especially when you’re reaching out to, to first time donors. Um, I think that a lot of immigrants might be first time donors and they might need a certain kind of education to, to say, hey, you know, we would be honored. This is, uh, this is the main purpose and this is the higher calling. And if you’re able to walk them through that, then I think it makes, it, it’s simpler for them. It breaks down the complexity and it removes the fear of having never done this before. And like you rightly said, everything doesn’t have to be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. It could start small. And, and so if you give them the different options and the different that it’s not, you know, an arm and a leg to begin with. I think that is something that will mitigate the fear as well. [00:46:48.25] spk_0:
And again, planned giving is never gonna be the first gift that you’ve asked someone to give. You may start them, you know, you’ll, you’ll, they need to be committed already to the organization before you’re opening the door to a planned giving conversation. So very well, you know, as you said, you know, we might be introducing them with $100 gift or $1000 gift. And that may be years before we get to a planned giving conversation. But the relationship has to be built and I, I thank you for raising our consciousness teaching me, uh, about some of the Eastern sensitivities around around a conversation that ultimately leads to plan giving or might be talking about planned giving now because the person already is a committed loyal donor, but now you’re talking about the next level of giving and uh, we need to be sensitive to the Eastern Eastern cultures, Eastern beliefs structures. So thank you. Thank you. [00:47:17.77] spk_1:
Thank you. I hope that, you know, the listeners do get a couple of tips that might help them approach donors of eastern descent and also follow some broader strategies. But at the end of the day, tony as a multicultural specialist. Especially, um, I think what hits me most is that people are more similar than we are different. You know, it’s, it’s just a slight nuances that vary, but in a, in a broader sense, I think what we all strive for what we all want. Our motivators are, are shockingly alike. [00:47:31.58] spk_0:
Video murthy, founder of Austin texas based chloral LLC at chloral c l U R A L dot c o. And you’ll, uh, you can connect with video on linkedin video. Thank you very much delighted. [00:47:46.40] spk_1:
Thank you so much tony It’s been a pleasure [00:49:03.65] spk_0:
next week. The tech that comes next. That’s the new book from AMY sample ward and a few a Bruce. They’ll both be with us if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies i. Tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D. But you know, just like three D. Except they go one dimension deeper. And remember scott Stein’s new album, Please check him out Scott Stein music dot com, Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation, scotty and congratulations on your new album. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.
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Hello and welcome to Tony-Martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of two targa. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of a target to turn to 22 to turn to torta no pia, I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of tutor to know pia if I saw that you missed this week’s show planned giving for Eastern donors, cultural and familial differences between east and west raise issues for planned giving, fundraising. Vidya murthy from chloral LLC and Bassett Education India raises our consciousness on Tony’s take to scott stein’s new album. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. And by fourth dimension technologies I. T. Infra in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper here is planned giving for Eastern donors. It’s a pleasure to welcome to nonprofit radio video murthy. She is founder of austin texas based chloral C L U R A L L L C and C. E. O of Bassett Education India Video is a communications specialist. D. Eye specialist and the specialist in cross cultural training, boundary crossing tactics, media relations and interpersonal communication. The company is at chloral dot C. O and you’ll find her on linkedin video. Welcome to nonprofit radio [00:02:23.84] spk_1:
thank you so much. tony Happy to be here [00:02:41.56] spk_0:
it’s a pleasure. Glad to have you this is a very interesting topic to me of course, because we’re talking about planned giving, but in a culture that I am not acquainted with, so I’ve got a lot of learning to do from you um before we go into the, all the cultural differences that, that I want to talk about, let’s define the eastern world for folks and for me, so I know what, what regions or what countries, you know, we’re talking about. [00:02:58.65] spk_1:
Yeah, sure. So I think that’s a great place to start. I think when we talk about the eastern world we’re really talking everything that is east of africa and east of europe. So you’re talking the Middle East and then further on your talking china India sri lanka, um, you know all the way up until Singapore and Japan. [00:03:21.56] spk_0:
Okay, Alright. So it is, it’s fair to lump japan and India together in our, in what we’re talking about today. [00:03:45.44] spk_1:
Yeah. And the reason that, that I, that I think it might be okay, tony is uh, you know when you look at it at a, at a granular level is Alabama the same as California. No, not at all. But it is possible to paint all of America in broad strokes and I’m going to try to use those similar broad strokes with reference to the Eastern culture. The Eastern philosophy. [00:03:54.61] spk_0:
Okay, okay. And Middle East as well you said [00:03:57.19] spk_1:
yes, Middle East as well for [00:04:03.79] spk_0:
sure. Alright, so we’ll talk in broad strokes and uh you know if I if I transgress and say something. You know if I try to draw a conclusion that’s inappropriate, you will you’ll cut me off at the knees, right? [00:04:10.34] spk_1:
I doubt that’ll happen. But yes, [00:04:20.02] spk_0:
now now there’s a good chance you gotta you gotta lackluster house at best, so you’ll be sure to stop me if I draw some conclusions or something that it’s just wrong. Just dead [00:04:24.84] spk_1:
wrong, [00:04:26.63] spk_0:
please. I’m counting on you, I’m counting on you to do that. All [00:04:29.20] spk_1:
right. [00:04:43.33] spk_0:
And I’ll of course I will try not to make a fool of myself as well. Alright. Uh I usually I I often I often succeeded that just often. So patriarchy, patriarchy is very important. What what do we need to know about the role of men in these cultures? [00:05:14.22] spk_1:
Well again with reference to broad strokes, I think patriarchy is a familial structure, it’s an authority structure and it’s an organizational structure and the power of the male voice is not something that can be easily underestimated in the Eastern society. Um I think that it has a significant amount of both influence and control with reference to all kinds of decisions of all kinds of personal and professional decisions and I think particularly with respect to plan giving um I think the male voice kind of dominates those decisions in the Eastern world. [00:05:38.57] spk_0:
Okay. Yeah, go ahead more more. I hope [00:06:09.77] spk_1:
just one more point. I also want to kind of set the context that in several Eastern cultures. Um, the daughter in a family tony always gets married and leaves and walks into her husband’s house and her husband’s family. The Sun, however, stays back to carry on the family legacy and the family name and oftentimes his wife moves in with him and his parents. Business decisions, personal decisions are all just continued therefore from father to son and generation to generation. So a patriarch passes on his power and control to his son and [00:06:26.21] spk_0:
like [00:06:26.68] spk_1:
it or not, that kind of dictates the preference for the male child within the eastern family [00:06:33.45] spk_0:
unit. Now everything we’re talking about today is this likely to be, uh, to be continued in folks who have immigrated to the US. [00:07:32.00] spk_1:
Uh, I think the Western lifestyle is so powerful that it does seep through the walls of homes and it does tend to influence, um, and bring upon Western influences into Eastern homes. Um, I think basically the responsibility and the close knit structure of the family does stay together, but, but our immigrants families, you know, living together with their sons and daughters in law in multigenerational homes as is very common in the East. I doubt it. I doubt it because that’s where work takes folks right. I mean, my son might work in in, in California and, and therefore he cannot continue to live with me. And, and so I don’t see that system being perpetuated in immigrant families when they exist in, in, in Western worlds, but certainly the emotion is there certainly the sense of responsibility and the closer knit family structure is very much intact [00:08:03.15] spk_0:
and, and still male dominated, you, you believe, but still, so patriarch quickly organized, not, not physically organized around patriarchy with, with the, with the wife of the sun moving in, not physically located, but, but the, the concept still prevailing. You think, [00:08:31.24] spk_1:
oh absolutely, I think it does prevail. And I think that while I say that I must use a word of caution as well because just as with every generational difference, you know, even in America, even amongst families here, there’s a significant amount of difference in the last two generations. So I think we need to allow for that. Um, and, and, and know that, you know, there are going to be some families which kind of morph into more Western structures, but essentially at the core of it, the patriarchal voice is a very important, controlling, influencing voice. [00:09:15.89] spk_0:
It sounds like the lesson is, you know, no, no, your donor and know know their family, you know, so we can, we were here raising awareness of what might exist in a, in a, in an immigrant family from, from the east, um, or might not. So, you know, for, for fundraisers, you know, we can raise your consciousness, you need to be aware of what the, what the dynamics are in a, in a donor and donor family that that your your you might be talking to. [00:09:20.79] spk_1:
Oh absolutely. And I think that once you understand the nuances of the donor family and and whose voice is perhaps the loudest and what their key motivators are for any kind of giving. I think then you are on the verge of being able to design an effective approach strategy [00:10:08.64] spk_0:
of course, write what moves them uh you know, programmatic program wise of course. But just in terms of, you know, where the decision making is, you might be talking to a female donor who might actually be, you know, uh in a in a marriage where the husband makes the decisions around finance as you were saying or you might not or it might it might be that the western culture is more seeped in in that family. So that’s what I’m saying. You know, you want to know the dynamics of the family you’re you’re working with. [00:10:14.80] spk_1:
Oh, absolutely. [00:10:16.20] spk_0:
Okay. [00:10:17.11] spk_1:
And while you know, insight into that might be difficult. My my tip would be to pick up on a lot of nonverbal cues and kind of read between the lines when you’re interacting with these families. You know, sometimes [00:10:32.24] spk_0:
that’s that’s juicy. Okay, what are some nonverbal clues, clues, [00:11:19.45] spk_1:
clues for example, you know, you approach the home of the donor, you set up a meeting and whether they see you in the office or you see them in their home, Um, you’ll get and pick up a lot of cues in it. So for example, sometimes the wives may or may not even join the conversation and, and then you know, instantly that you know who, whose voice kind of dominates. Sometimes you might notice that as you walk into their office, you don’t see their wife’s office right next to his, you know, so you know, that perhaps she’s not engaged in that same line of work or you know, the responses seem seem to bear a certain unilateral authority rather than saying, Hey, I love talking with you, Let me talk to my wife and I’ll get back. He might, let’s say, you know, yeah, let’s do it done. And he’ll sign up right then and there or say no right then and there. So so you can kind of pick up and even when you’re talking to the wife, she might, you know, say this sounds great. It’s a very important, cause I suggest you talk to my husband, I’m traveling. I’m not even gonna be in town, but you can take it up with him. You know, and then you know that she’s probably not part of the routine decision making engine of the family. [00:13:47.56] spk_0:
It’s time for a break turn to communications. I saw on linkedin, somebody defined crisis communications as applying to anything that’s out of the ordinary, not necessarily something bad just outside the day to day routine. And she used the example of dignitaries visiting her non profit obviously delightful, wonderful, great opportunity. Um, I can see, you know that sort of definition, but uh, because because it requires a crisis level response, even though it’s terrific, you wanna make sure, you know, you get the word out broadly leading up to it and, and during the event and after the event and you want to have that messaging being consistent and on brand and of course you have to manage the event itself. Um, you wanna tie in your own dignitaries, like your board and your major donors, major volunteers, Right folks that are your, your insiders. So, uh, maybe call it a positive crisis. You could think of it as as that. And another example might be a major anniversary, could be a positive crisis. So like your 20th or your 50th, this is all to say. That turn to, can help you with communications for these positive crises, great things that are happening that are way out of the ordinary. They can help you out with the messaging around all that because your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to planned giving for Eastern donors. You mentioned business to, uh, the, the, uh, I think you’re referring to the sun taking on the business of the of the father. Can you say a little more about that, that prevalence. [00:14:46.12] spk_1:
Well, a lot of the times with reference, I think to to indian immigrant families and to Eastern immigrant families here in the United States, um, I would say that the fathers who moved here, let’s say in the eighties or in the nineties, you know, they worked tremendously hard tony to set up these businesses. Right. And, and that’s how they build better futures for themselves and their families. And so chances are that a significant portion of their Children are looking at taking over these organizations that their parents have created and along with inheriting not just the business, they tend to inherit the culture and the organizational philosophy that their parents intended when they started the organization. Right. So, so they take it upon themselves as a matter of, of responsibility to continue to toe that line and and to be able to make sure that they are indeed perpetuating what their parents most likely their fathers intended. [00:15:02.34] spk_0:
Okay, so, so there is a responsibility across the generations, [00:15:07.23] spk_1:
no [00:15:09.38] spk_0:
doubt. Okay, [00:15:10.08] spk_1:
no doubt. [00:15:10.87] spk_0:
And that applies to daughters as well. You said, you said Children, [00:15:25.02] spk_1:
of course, of course there’s numerous instances of, of super intelligent, empowered women that have done magic with what their fathers or mothers have created. And and that’s really heartening to see. And in fact, I know of several stories like that and those are the encouraging ones that, that I think a lot of other upcoming entrepreneurs and business women look up to as examples. [00:15:49.28] spk_0:
You you mentioned when we were talking alone something about, you know synchronizing generational giving what what what what what’s what’s this about? [00:16:58.46] spk_1:
So with reference to synchronization I think when Eastern families raise their kids um they are caught in a duality of their original cultures and also wanting to adopt, adapt and fit into the Western cultures. So every household kind of creates a marriage between the Eastern and the western world’s and picks values that they really try to instill and pass on into their sons and their daughters. They try to set boundaries on you know when they’re really young, you know saying this is what is acceptable to us or this is not acceptable to to us and they define and pick and choose which Western values can permeate through their walls into their homes and by doing so they try to sync up with their kids on their own values, what they believe in their approach towards money, their approach towards giving towards contribution to society. Um and and values that that they all follow in their personal lives as well in terms of whom you marry, how you spend money, how you communicate with those around you and maintain a social circle along with all of these. I think for sure you know the sense of giving back is also communicated and synchronized generation to generation. [00:17:27.71] spk_0:
What can you generalize about thinking around supporting charitable work. You know I mean you know in a lot of other countries that doesn’t even exist very much, but but here in the U. S. You know, what what can you what can you generalize about support to to charity? [00:20:25.88] spk_1:
What can I generalize? That’s such an interesting question, tony because uh you know, and this is in the Eastern world, in the Eastern world. If I were to draw generalizations, not here in the United States, but in the Eastern world, I would think that there are broadly three primary factors that drive planned giving in the Eastern world. It could be won a very heartfelt feeling for the cause itself. You know, you have you have philanthropists of of various economic capabilities who are trying to do their part towards the cost that they feel passionately about? And that’s the human drive, right? So, so that’s common for everybody across the planet. If you can you believe in a cause the humanness and you calls out to you and you give um in the Eastern world, a lot of plan giving is out of political pressure and and you do have to wade through through a lot of murky areas in order to navigate. I think those regions, because a lot of plan giving is very political in the Eastern world and and instead of a direct contribution to a political leader, he might say, hey, you know, can you build this park in this constituency or can be create a center of art in this constituency from from his constituency. So it’s it’s very politically driven. And third, I think is certainly the social status that comes with being known as a donor for a visible cause. And the social status in the Eastern world earns you so much in terms of almost a demigod kind of a status if you are that visible and if your donation is that visible. And I think in terms of generalizations, if I were to take these three and try to see if I can paint the Western donors from Eastern heritage in this same light, is it possible? I would say that only two of them are probably more applicable. A small percentage of them, I think would do it for uh, for political, the reason is a very small percentage, but broadly either they do it because they believe in the cause and they feel like it’s their turn to give back because they’ve crossed continents, rebuild their lives and, and now they feel almost a sense of social responsibility to give back. And also the second part that motivates them would be certainly the visibility in society to be seen as an immigrant who is successful up to the point where they’re being noticed for their philanthropic efforts. And, and guess that’s where, you know, the curve of life would take most immigrants to be in a position of visible donor to be respected for it to be acknowledged for it [00:20:49.91] spk_0:
very interesting. So, you know, lessons for us in in stewardship and and public acknowledgement of the public acknowledgement as a part of stewardship so that the person feels this and and enjoys this elevated social status. [00:21:33.08] spk_1:
Absolutely. And I think you know, when, when you approach donors, you know, if you can um, if you can give them incentives for increased visibility. So if you say, hey, you know, we’ll interview you and we’ll put a link on our website or there’s a plaque with your name on it or you know, we will have this section dedicated to you and and your name and picture will be visible here or we will announce this donation in this forum, whatever you can do or if there is a kind of a yearbook, almost that that you can include them in and their name and photograph or an interview with them that talks about, you know why they are giving to this cause and what their drivers were and make it a very personalized story that they can tell through you to the world. Um, I think all of them would be excellent motivators for them to give [00:22:00.48] spk_0:
you even mentioned the word demigod in in in their own culture, being seen as a, as a demigod. [00:22:10.21] spk_1:
Oh yes, and that’s a very interesting phenomenon and I think that’s very [00:22:14.15] spk_0:
specific to the eastern [00:22:15.46] spk_1:
world. [00:22:16.54] spk_0:
Yeah, [00:23:00.36] spk_1:
because you know organizations, the larger ones, especially if you take you know the non Gardena House of business or the even bigger Ambani House of business back in India, you know, they actually have a day called Founder’s Day during which all the employees in the organization, literally thousands of them, they celebrate, you know, the founder’s birthday and there is a large photograph and their garlands around it and people bow and their flowers and they recognize his, his contribution not just in founding the organization but recognizing his philanthropic efforts. Um, sometimes, you know, they would go as far as not even wear slippers or shoes right Up to the photograph, just like you would in a, in a temple, you know, and that’s why I call it the demigod status and, and it’s not artificial, it’s not a put on, they really feel it from their heart. They feel like they owe their sustenance to this individual who started this organization 50 years ago or 80 years ago. [00:26:34.48] spk_0:
It’s time for a break. 4th dimension technologies, technology is an investment. You’re investing in staff productivity because you know how unproductive folks can be when, uh, technology is not doing what it’s supposed to do. You’re investing in security obviously, um, donor relationships because you’re preserving, giving histories and actions, people’s preferences, their own personal info, uh, their attendance at events. Um, you’re investing in your organization’s sustainability. So I hope you see tech as an investment and not an expense and 4D can help you invest wisely see how it all fits together, help you make your tech investment decisions doing it smartly you can check them out on the listener landing page for help with your tech investing at tony dot M A slash four D. Just like three D. But they go one dimension deeper. It’s time for Tony’s take two scott. Stein has a new album, I love it. You know, scott of course, he’s the composer of cheap red wine, the show’s theme song, it opens and closes every single show. You know it, his new album is uphill. I’ve been listening and uh hoping that you will listen. I’m suggesting giving him giving him a listen for the new album, my favorite song is the last one on the album. So even though he calls the album Uphill, he ends with the song, It’s a good life, which is the one that he premiered on the 600 show. Uh and I love his lyrics like don’t just stick to what, you know, let it fly and watch it go. Of course I’m not gonna bother trying to sing. Uh you’ll be grateful, you are grateful. Trust me. Another one that I love also from that song uh from it’s a it’s a Good Life no matter how you sing your song, there’s always someone singing along. So you know, I love scott. Um I’ve been using his song for many, many years. Um I’m enjoying his new album. Uphill. You can sample every song on the album if you go to scott stein music dot com. So I’m asking you please give give scott a listen at Scott Stein music dot com for his brand new album. Uphill, That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for planned giving for Eastern donors with Vidya murthy. Let’s talk about the one, something very concrete. The beliefs around the word death, death is is not not a good word. [00:28:32.38] spk_1:
Yeah, I think, you know, if you spoke to anybody tony in the, in the Eastern world, um, generally Eastern philosophy, I think it lends itself to the fact that words are very powerful and uh, you know, most spirituality or different kinds of religions, I think they focus on energy and consciousness as opposed to a book or as opposed to uh rules of commandments, right? That’s what most easter religions are built on. So this is not just with reference to Hinduism, but it extends to buddhism or taoism or organism where they believe in the power of words. So, you they also believe then that what you talk about manifests in life. So what you don’t want to be doing certainly is approaching a person and saying, okay, so after your death, how can we ensure that the system of giving continues because that’s just too direct for them and it’s too much in your face. And it’s not something that I think people like to discuss openly as factual as it might be, as certain as it might be, they’re very watchful with, With using words in that context. So when you approach, I think a donor from the east, you really clearly want to stay away from using those kinds of words which talk about, you know, the term in al itty of life you want to really talk about, you know, how can we, how can we ensure that that what you’re doing continues for the next 80 years? That’s probably a better way to say it. And it’s just a choice of words. [00:29:41.11] spk_0:
Right, Okay. And that’s very consistent with what I teach folks about talking about planned giving, which is that it is not a death conversation, although the word death may work its way in, you know, someone, uh, someone from the West may very well say, well, you know, I’ve already got my, my plans for my death, you know, laid out or you know, they may bring the word up. Um, but your, your point is that, you know, dealing with someone from the East you don’t want to. Um, and again, that’s consistent with what I teach, which is that planned giving is the, the, the life of the nonprofit, the sustainability of the nonprofits work and mission and values for decades and generations to come. And listeners may have heard me use that exact phrase decades and generations. Um, so, you know, you’re not talking about the person’s death, you’re talking about the life of the nonprofit, the survivability of the nonprofit. Okay. But interesting about just the word, you know, or around. Yeah, the words death dying, uh, you know, they should be avoided, which they don’t really belong in a plane giving conversation to begin with unless the donor brings it up. [00:30:28.20] spk_1:
Sure, sure. Um, I just like to, you know, throw light on two different aspects and maybe this is an appropriate time. tony is, I think when you are trying to, um, talk to and attract donors, um, one, I think the western way of doing business is very transactional as opposed to the relational way of doing business in the Eastern world. And I think kind of softening the edges is, is a great place to start. So you know, when you, when you talk to a potential donor, maybe you can engage in some conversation about their family. Maybe you can engage in some conversation, you can ask questions about, about what their kids are doing and try to paint and present the picture that you’re not just doing this as a transaction between a donor and your organization, but rather this is a family that’s committing because they believe in the cause and position it based on the relationship that you seek to develop with the [00:31:36.30] spk_0:
family. Yeah, I mean, these conversations are never the first time you’ve met the person, You know, these, these conversations take place over time. You’re talking to folks who are already committed and loyal to the organization. They’ve demonstrated that commitment and loyalty through their giving history and you know, it’s, it’s really, of course, as you’re saying, it’s, it’s relational, it develops over time to, to the point where you believe, you know, it’s a good, it’s a good time, the right time for an individual donor or family to raise the idea of a gift in their, in their long term plans. Yeah. [00:31:40.20] spk_1:
And I think you’re right in terms of just warming up to it and then adding that personal touch. And because sometimes I think the western way of doing business, you minimize references to a person’s personal life. And I guess what I’m suggesting is talk about that personal life more. [00:32:01.34] spk_0:
Yeah. Okay. Getting to know the person, getting to know their family [00:32:06.35] spk_1:
and [00:32:06.49] spk_0:
that and that is going to happen over over time. Right? [00:32:09.14] spk_1:
Yes. Over time. Of course. [00:32:11.90] spk_0:
Um, what else would you, what would you like to talk about around this? [00:32:29.76] spk_1:
Oh, yeah, sure. So I think, um, you know, I’d like to go a little bit into detail now, tony If it’s okay with you to talk about the different kinds of family structures that exist. And, and uh, would you think that that’s an okay thing to talk about at this point, [00:32:34.89] spk_0:
please? I opened the door. Yeah, I’m not going to say no. Now, I just, I just opened the door for you. [00:34:56.44] spk_1:
Fantastic. Fantastic. So when I was researching this, I was very intrigued by this. and because I don’t think that immigrant families here who have lived in the US for generations, um are all homogeneous in their structure. And I went into a little bit more detail into finding out how our families organized here. And, and this is not my own research. It was something that was put out by Merrill private wealth. And they classify families as as essentially five different types of families. And the first type are individualists, families which are a lot of Western families as well. Nuclear units that that function mostly in isolation. Um then you have connected families and connected families. Um they’re very much nuclear units, but they stay in touch, They might meet once or twice a year. Um they might touch base once every few weeks. And those are again very similar, I think, to many families here in the Western world, then you have the third kind of families which are called tribal families. And tribal families tend to stay more connected. Um and they tend to know what’s happening in, in their daily lives, you know, so they might touch base certainly once a week and say, hey, what’s going on? And and even distant relatives stay in touch in the tribal family setup. Um then you have economic families and economic families. Um They own assets together. They might have a joint source of income and and family economics I think makes them one larger common unit and and the fifth kind of family is an integrated family where, you know, it combines the tribal and economic structures. They’re super close. Um, and mostly patriarchal and they have the money flow tied into decision making tied into raising kids, raising multiple generations and they all live under the same roof. And I think when you identify very clearly what kind of family structure a potential donor, um, lives in, it might be very helpful to you and, and critical input to you as you devise your strategy for approaching the donor. And so you could align [00:35:22.53] spk_0:
it. Are we most likely to see folks from the Eastern cultures that we’re talking about being aligned in sort of the last one? The economic type family structure. [00:35:51.83] spk_1:
Yeah, they’re mostly either tribal families, economic families or integrated families. And you will find that for example, if there’s a family of positions, um, you know, which is very common from the Eastern world, you’ll find that, that, you know, certainly they, our tribal families, they stay in touch, they talk about money and business, they might own assets to grow together. If they’re three brothers, you know, they make joint investments, um, they even make sure they support their nieces and nephews, not just their own Children. And so when you approach these families, then it might help to have a broader strategy of visibility, not just for the person you’re directly engaging with, but for their brothers or sisters as well. [00:36:27.90] spk_0:
There are times of day that are better to talk about long term planning and finances than other times of the day in the cultures we’re talking about. Can you flush that out please? [00:37:42.29] spk_1:
Yes, that’s an interesting concept and and if I may, you know this is a kind of a personal story, tony is when we were, when we used to live in in India and it was a multigenerational home. We had four generations in the same house, but the elders in the family would often discourage us from having either banking counselors or insurance counselors in our homes during the evening hours after 5 30 to at least 7 30 or eight p.m. And the belief was that that that is a pious time of the day when when all goodness walks into your home and it’s probably not the best time to be sitting and having a discussion on insurance or giving or what happens after you die. So they would actually shoo away invest insurance agents who would knock after 55 30 now. No, no fault of the insurance agent. You know, they’re just too trying to come by your place because it’s after work hours and they think that that might be a time that’s good for you to talk to them because you’re done with your work. So my suggestion is probably just during business hours is always the best to talk about um you know, plan giving, especially if you’re discussing, you know, what’s going to happen with generations to come with reference to the [00:38:10.44] spk_0:
giving. [00:38:11.81] spk_1:
Yeah. And it’s nobody wants to sit in most eastern worlds talk about unpleasant things between five and 7 in the evening. [00:38:19.82] spk_0:
Okay. [00:38:20.87] spk_1:
Yeah. [00:38:21.65] spk_0:
Planned giving is not unpleasant, but of [00:38:24.23] spk_1:
course it’s not. Of course it’s not. But God forbid, you know the word debt. But [00:38:56.51] spk_0:
we are we are talking about money and finance and and you, you know, you might be talking about rates of income from charitable gift annuities or you might be talking about a gift from a life insurance policy. Again, this goes back to know your donor. No, the family, but we’re raising consciousness here about what you might, what you might, uh, what you might face. So be aware, be aware you have something called the, uh, answering the call of Oneness from humanity. It sounds very aspirational. What is that? [00:40:25.15] spk_1:
The Eastern world is a very trying world tony in many places. There’s a lot more competition for someone I think, who has not seen what the race for survival is. It can be very humbling and answering the call to to human Good, I think is something that strikes at the very heart of many donors of Eastern origin. And while they live work and play in the Western world, I think many donors are more inclined to give to a human cause that contributes, let’s say to to Children or to senior citizens amongst us or to those with physical challenges or mental challenges, something that improves humans and families and gives them access to better education, better futures generally. Again, broad strokes, they tend to connect more with these causes as opposed to causes that let’s say, promote art or, you know, if or promote, let’s say automobiles or promote music, even sometimes, you know, because they more relate and many a time they are witnesses to two stories of struggle and, and success within their own families. They know how little their fathers came from or how little their grandparents had and what helped them. So they look at plan giving as a way to give back and which is why I think human causes, um, attract them more [00:40:53.72] spk_0:
because [00:40:54.38] spk_1:
they’ve seen poverty and helplessness most of the time from a whole another level than, than what is visible here in the west. [00:41:07.11] spk_0:
Okay, [00:41:17.84] spk_1:
so I think I’m talking about what causes appeal to them more and the reason that it appeals to them. Yeah. [00:41:20.00] spk_0:
Um, what else would you, what would you like to make folks aware of? We haven’t talked about yet. [00:42:40.31] spk_1:
Um, well, as as I think we continue this discussion, I would, I would like to focus on some strategies that I think would be effective when you’re reaching out. Right. Um, I think, you know, to, it kind of touches upon some of the things that we’ve already spoken about. tony But um, one, I think the human angle is something that you should certainly reach out up front point number two Is the social status that comes with giving and three be sure you talk about generational impact or the impact on the broader family structure, not just on the donor himself, but with the 34, 10 people that encompass his immediate family, which might mean his brother, her sister, her aunt, just a few more people apart from just that one individual. And when you talk about generational impact, the human angle social status, um, I think then, and you’re sensitive about, you know, who’s making these decisions and who’s calling the shots. I think you’re really onto something in terms of being able to make them want to give to your cause? [00:43:13.58] spk_0:
Let’s flush out that generational impact because that, that sounds like something that may be a stretch or maybe I’m just not conceiving of it correctly. So how can we, if we’re talking about a long term gift, a planned gift with someone. Um, I mean there are, there are planned giving methods that can include other people like charitable gift annuities and charitable trusts. There could be value for other family members that way beyond the donor. Um, is that, is that the kind of thing, you know, you’re talking about, are you referring to financial impact for siblings and, and other generations or are you talking about something broader than than a financial benefit, [00:43:58.89] spk_1:
certainly broader than a financial benefit. tony I think what I’m, what I mean is if you’re looking at a charitable trust that composes the whole, the broader family unit, which is very common in Eastern families. And I suspect in the Western as well, obviously just because of its of the benefits of the financial benefits of having one, you are talking about not just the monetary component and the benefits through generations, but the val Values that you’re able to pass on from generation to generation and what you want your family to be remembered by what you want, your son to grow up and stand for or your daughter to say, Hey, you know, my mom did this 20 years ago and now I want to do it for the same organization and feel a sense of connectedness and pride. So you’re passing on the emotion, you’re passing on the value and you’re passing on the monetary commitment and the benefit. [00:44:32.18] spk_0:
All right. All helpful. Okay. Um, what do you think should we, should we wrap it up there or something else? Is there anything pounding like, why didn’t he ask me this question? Anything else? Um, not [00:45:24.17] spk_1:
that not that anything comes to, comes to my mind, but I think that, um, you know, just being sensitive to, uh, to the cultural impediments of fear, complexity and inconsistency. Um, in terms of, especially when you’re reaching out to, to first time donors. Um, I think that a lot of immigrants might be first time donors and they might need a certain kind of education to, to say, hey, you know, we would be honored. This is, uh, this is the main purpose and this is the higher calling. And if you’re able to walk them through that, then I think it makes, it, it’s simpler for them. It breaks down the complexity and it removes the fear of having never done this before. And like you rightly said, everything doesn’t have to be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. It could start small. And, and so if you give them the different options and the different that it’s not, you know, an arm and a leg to begin with. I think that is something that will mitigate the fear as well. [00:46:48.25] spk_0:
And again, planned giving is never gonna be the first gift that you’ve asked someone to give. You may start them, you know, you’ll, you’ll, they need to be committed already to the organization before you’re opening the door to a planned giving conversation. So very well, you know, as you said, you know, we might be introducing them with $100 gift or $1000 gift. And that may be years before we get to a planned giving conversation. But the relationship has to be built and I, I thank you for raising our consciousness teaching me, uh, about some of the Eastern sensitivities around around a conversation that ultimately leads to plan giving or might be talking about planned giving now because the person already is a committed loyal donor, but now you’re talking about the next level of giving and uh, we need to be sensitive to the Eastern Eastern cultures, Eastern beliefs structures. So thank you. Thank you. [00:47:17.77] spk_1:
Thank you. I hope that, you know, the listeners do get a couple of tips that might help them approach donors of eastern descent and also follow some broader strategies. But at the end of the day, tony as a multicultural specialist. Especially, um, I think what hits me most is that people are more similar than we are different. You know, it’s, it’s just a slight nuances that vary, but in a, in a broader sense, I think what we all strive for what we all want. Our motivators are, are shockingly alike. [00:47:31.58] spk_0:
Video murthy, founder of Austin texas based chloral LLC at chloral c l U R A L dot c o. And you’ll, uh, you can connect with video on linkedin video. Thank you very much delighted. [00:47:46.40] spk_1:
Thank you so much tony It’s been a pleasure [00:49:03.65] spk_0:
next week. The tech that comes next. That’s the new book from AMY sample ward and a few a Bruce. They’ll both be with us if you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o and by fourth dimension technologies i. Tion for in a box. The affordable tech solution for nonprofits. tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant D. But you know, just like three D. Except they go one dimension deeper. And remember scott Stein’s new album, Please check him out Scott Stein music dot com, Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. The shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott Stein. Thank you for that. Affirmation, scotty and congratulations on your new album. You’re with me next week for nonprofit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.