Vishal Reddy, Karim Bouris & Pattie Carlin: Your Four-Day Work Week
This 2024 Nonprofit Technology Conference panel introduces you to the national campaign for a 32-hour, 4-day work week. They’re the executive director of the campaign, a company that made the switch and a nonprofit that did, too. They’re Vishal Reddy from Work Four, Karim Bouris with Mixte Communications and Pattie Carlin at NTEN.
Dr. Lauren Hopkins & Dr. Carla Torrence: Intergenerational Communication
Our panel of two Ph.D.’s discusses common communication challenges in the workplace and shares its strategy for overcoming them. They are Lauren Hopkins from Prepared to Impact and Carla Torrence at i.D.R.E.A.M. for Racial Health Equity. This is also from 24NTC.
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Welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be stricken with trauma Tonia if I had to breathe while you told me that you missed this week’s show. Here’s our associate producer, Kate with what’s on the menu? Hey, Tony, we have your four day work week. This 2024 nonprofit technology conference panel introduces you to the national campaign for a 32 hour four day work week. They’re the executive director of the campaign, a company that made the switch and a nonprofit that did too. They’re vishal red from work for Karim Bori with Mixy Communications and Patty Carlin at 10. Then Intergenerational communication. Our panel of two phd S discusses common communication challenges in the workplace and shares its strategy for overcoming them. They are Lauren Hopkins from prepared to impact and Carla Torrance from Ire for racial health equity. This is also from 24 NTC on Tony’s take two summertime planning time were sponsored by virtuous. Virtuous, gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving, virtuous.org and by donor box outdated donation forms, blocking supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org. Here is your four day work week. Welcome back to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference. You know that we’re coming to you from Portland Oregon at the Oregon Convention Center where we are sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. What you don’t know is that the conversation we’re about to have is about a four day work week. And with me to have that discussion are Vishal ready the executive director at work for the national campaign for the four day work week. Also Karim Bori, principal at MD Communications and Patty Carlin Finance and operations director for our host at uh N 10. Vishal. Karim Patty. Welcome to nonprofit radio. Thanks Tony Pure. Alright. Alright. I’m glad um you gave me like, like excited to be here, but you were smiling. I want, I want folks to know you were smiling when you said it. So I am very excited to be here. Yes, maxing out the volume and everything. All right, outstanding. Now. Thank you. The four day work week, Vishal, since you’re the executive director of the campaign, the national campaign for the four day work week, why don’t you kick us off? What, what are we? I think we know what we’re talking about. Why should we be talking about it? Why should the nation, the national campaign? Why should the nation go to a four day work week? Yeah. Well, first of all, I just want to say really excited to be here and, you know, when we talk about a four day work week, we want to be really crystal clear about what we’re talking about. We’re not just talking about a four day work week with 10 hour days. We’re talking about a four day, 32 hour work week with no loss in pay or benefits. And that’s very important to know. Thank you. And the reason we’re really excited about this is because, you know, there’s been a whole host of research and organizations, as we’ll hear from Patty and Cream that have shifted to a four day 32 hour model. And, you know, over the last few years, what we’ve seen is that this is a win, win, win. This is a rare triple dividend policy for workers, for companies and for society. And so what we’ve seen for organizations is that, you know, 91% plus of organizations that shift to a four day work week are piloted, stick with it because of increased productivity, improve retention, better work life balance for their employees for workers. 95% of employees that get to try a four day work week want it. And 80% of people in public in the public want it because, you know, better work life balance, you know, and more time to care for their loved ones. And then for society, this really is a policy that has potential to improve the environment, advance gender equity and give more time to people so they can participate civically. And so, you know, we’re really excited by what we’ve seen, you know, hundreds of companies already do across the US And we believe that this is a policy that can be scaled uh through, you know, public policy and through more and more workplaces implementing it. And we really believe that, you know, the evidence and the research is on our side to show that this is something that all workers in all workplaces in America should have. All right, Kareem, why don’t you just give us uh an overview of what it’s been like at uh mix the communications for uh for a 32 hour four day work week. Sure. Um So Tony, Tony would, it’s probably worth knowing is that our industry, the digital marketing and public relations space is often in the top five of high burnout industries, we’re dominated by the news cycle 24 7. We are addicted to the social media platforms, algorithms and we feel compelled to be on all the time. So high turnover um in industry where folks just don’t necessarily have this balance, we work in the social justice space. So as an employer it is super important for us that we practice what we preach. So we always look at our habits and our practices to make sure that what we say we fight for is what we do in our own company. So when the four day work week happened, it was the perfect or not happened. But when we realized that there were all these pilots with data around the world and especially in the UK and we started seeing data in the US that was showing what Vishal just mentioned. 90 plus percent. We just kept compiling and making the case internally for it. And there was no doubt that it was the right move. So we didn’t just move into it overnight. We took six months to plan it and it was a fundamental rethinking of everything we do and how we do it. Um I’ll probably point to three things that we did that helped us a lot. We tested and measured and surveyed our employees um every month for six months and we were measuring what’s working, what’s not working. The one thing we know that our employees all agreed on and we had 100% results from the get go was that nobody wanted to go back to five days a week. So as hard as it was to try to figure things out about how we communicate about how we run meetings about how long we do things and how we’re, we’re measuring productivity and efficiency. Nobody felt compelled to go back to five days in the grind mentality. The second thing we did is that we figured out that the model that worked for us was staggering. So half of our team is off on Fridays, half of the team is off on Monday. We use group emails for all our clients so that it doesn’t matter when they email everybody on that account. Team gets the message so that if you’re there on the Friday, somebody else on, if um on the team who’s out will know what’s going on on the Monday. But there’s never a loss of coverage for our clients. And then the third thing that is worth mentioning is that we actually didn’t tell our clients for a year and no client knew that’s, that’s a great test. All the black box test. You’re, you’re unaware. All right. And no, no, there were no complaints and no nobody really Patty Carlin at N 10. 00, I do have, I’m sorry, one more question. Um How long ago did you uh did you make the final transition? We did in January in January of 2023. And in 2023 we finished a year, a couple of months, we finished a year in 2023 hitting a record revenue first time in our 13 years. Um We intentionally decided that the year was about um rethinking all of our operations and systems. So the, the investment for us was prioritizing this transition. So we weren’t letting profits dictate what we were going to do. So we intentionally went through the year expecting single digit profits, which we hit still because that was the biggest investment for us. We are a fully digital and remote company. So virtual company. So our largest asset are people. So we needed to make sure that we prioritize them. So um it worked. Sorry about that, Patty. Not at all. Please tell us the N 10 4 day work week experience. Well, we started July 1st of 2023. So we’re not quite a year in, but I think that was there a transition the way Kareem was explaining or six months. No, it was a couple of months. We spent a couple of months talking about. Do we need all these meetings? Do we can we just not have a staff meeting if no one really has anything to say, we don’t have to show up and talk about nothing. Is it still a meeting if no one comes and is it a meeting that could have been an email? You know? Yeah, don’t, don’t have it. Uh Thinking about what’s really important to us as a finance and operations director. Maybe bookkeeping is not the best use of my time now. So I’ll hire one. Um What else we do? Um Monday through Thursday, we’re closed on Friday. There’s the whole team. You’re not staggering the way mixed up. And, um, the person in me that was raised to believe that someone should always be there. Wishes we staggered, but we didn’t. And I’m ok with it. Now, was it a conscious choice in the organization? Did you consider the staggering? I don’t think so. Not seriously. But when said they did it, I went. Oh, no. But, um, it’s been great. Uh, and basically I think that this very conference is a testament to what you can do on a 32 hour week. We did this. I did not know that we were talking about a 32 hour week. I’m glad you explained that right from the get go. Um Yeah, I just assumed that we were talking about a 40 hour week in four days. Um Patty, what happens on Fridays when work emails? Uh I know N 10 does have an office. I don’t know how many calls they get but you have an office here in Portland. No, you don’t get calls. We don’t have the office in Portland anymore. We are, you know that IP O box? You used to be on North Aldert, you on OK. No more. Just a po box. Just a po box where 16 people in eight states. What happens on Fridays when, if an urgent email comes from a member or no vendor? Basically, we also have shared customer service emails but on Friday, an out of office goes up and says, and tens closed on Fridays. We’ll see you Monday and all of our staff does that every Thursday when you log off your out of office goes up and it says antenna is, is a four day, 32 hour, 100% pay 100% benefits. See you Monday. So this is very hard for me as I pointed out in our session. I am gen X. I was, I’ve been a nonprofit for years and you are expected to be there first in the morning out last at night, never take a break, you know, don’t eat, don’t sleep. And this was a big deal for me. What was the impetus at N 10? It was just, you know, we’re, we’re always looking at social and racial justice. We’re always looking at what it’s like to bring your whole self to work. What is it, what we want to be the world that we want? You know, we’re gonna be what we want to see and, you know, at any time, we’re really into modeling those things for everyone. So it’s just like, you know what, this is the right thing to do and we’re gonna do it and it got done and it wasn’t that easy. I make it sound really easy. It wasn’t that easy. And I think there were some of us that were really nervous, but like I said, this, this conference happened because 16 people committed to each other and trust each other and did this on a 32 hour work week and it’s been less than a year. Alright. Alright. Um Michelle, what’s the, what’s typically the impetus for a company or a nonprofit? Doesn’t matter whatever a workplace to to embark on the at least at least the consideration of a of a four day, 32 hour work week. And what kind of factors are, are creating the the the discussion? Yeah, I think you know, one place to start at this is a lot of organizations look at their employees and you know, they’re looking around and you just realize a lot of people are burnt out, right? So I think there was a study that came out last month from our partner center for work time reduction. And they showed that organizations that are on a five day work week schedule, typical five day work week schedule, the burnout average burnout at those organizations is 42%. And meanwhile, now organizations that are on a shorter workweek model, the burnout is 9%. So I think, you know, 99, yeah, so 33% difference. And so I think what people are realizing is the way that we structure work is weird. You know, this is just sort of like this. Um the work that we have right now is, you know, it’s a relic from the 19 forties, right? And so, so much of the way we work, how we work when we work has changed in the last 80 years. And, you know, when we see an epidemic of burnout, an epidemic of stress or, you know, just the sort of instinctual feeling, you know, you go to meetings and you’re like, what the hell is the point of that? Right? And so I think people are recognizing that there’s a way to, you know, make our work more efficient, more effective and also meet people’s needs. And, you know, right now, I think one of the really powerful stuff that’s been happening is four day week global. They’re in organization in New Zealand and they’ve been doing these incredible workplace trials over the last few years. And so, you know, like from Cream and P’s perspective when their organization see these studies and trials and they see, oh, this is, this really is a win, win for both, you know, workers at the company and the company. It can be a really powerful impetus to, you know, explore and pilot the change themselves. Kareem, you said you planned for six months, I think before you actually flipped the switch, what kinds of things are you planning for? What were we working through in those six months? It’s a good question, Tony. Um Finally, jeez, it took, how many years have you been doing this the second day of the conference? It’s the end of the second day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um Let’s see, we wanted to make sure that it was not an edict from the two principles that this was something that our staff wanted. So we had a group of staff get together and be part of the planning committee at every level. So they thought through all of our operations. So how many meetings we have? How long do they have? Why do we have them? How many touch points internally do we have to share information? So we went through all of the exercise and the fun one that we mentioned this morning at our, at our session is for a whole month, we removed all meetings from the calendar. We canceled all our client meetings, we believe we did that, but we did, we kicked off, we kicked off the year and we had told our clients when we come back, we’re not going to have meetings in January. We’ll plan our work differently. We’re going to communicate with you, but we’re not having the meetings that we typically do and we usually meet with clients twice a month. So wipe the calendar, clean, internal externals, everything. And we basically had staff work on a rebuilding from the ground up. Why do we have this meeting? How often, how often do we need it? And that was part of the process. So the second thing was the measuring and the iterating. We did this monthly survey and we looked at the data, we shared it internally, we discussed it. Um But that was part of the kickoff part of the planning looked at our budget as well. So we went into the year, as I said earlier, anticipating that this was an investment in staff. So we didn’t get to a single digit profit just because we switched the four day work week. Part of the, the switch was making everybody a salaried employee. So we reorganized and we let three of our more junior staff go. So everybody now is a manage manager and above, we only have 18 employees. So it help, it helps to be at this scale, but everybody’s now an a salaried employee. So the reason that mattered is because if we’re going to move to a four day work week and we need to be efficient. We need our people to be trusted and autonomous. So we could not have folks who were waiting on someone else to tell them what to do. So part of that was changing the salary structure and changing the job descriptions to match that as well. So all that administrative work as patty knows, it takes a while of rewriting job descriptions of having conversations with the team of saying, ok, with this what we’re doing. We so for some of our team, we said, we think you could be a fit for this new role and some of our junior people, we, we let three of our people go and we transitioned through the year. So you don’t make those decisions lightly. And it’s why it took us six months to go through it, Patty. So your transition was, was quicker, quicker. Um Your head was exploding when Karim said that uh they canceled every single meeting for a month. Um I don’t know. But you, but you mentioned there was I, I want, you wanted. So that’s sort of leading into something that you said uh earlier. It wasn’t that easy. No, it wasn’t that easy. Talk about some of the challenges maybe and, and how you overcame them as an organization. We had a lot of meetings, we had meeting on top of meeting on top of meeting. And it, it seriously was about, do we need this? Can we make meetings optional? You know, if you don’t have something to say, don’t and you have something to do. You had meetings about meetings. I said that in our session, I said we had a meeting about meetings and then we formed a subcomittee of people that wanted to talk about meetings and then they came back to the group so we could all talk about meetings again and then meetings were done and you scaled back a lot of meetings and we do have um every other week on a Monday, there’s like a placeholder. And if you go in and say I wanna talk about this for 15 minutes, everybody will show up if nobody needs, has anything to talk about, we’re not just gonna get on their so anybody can call the meeting. But, but it’s, it’s just a placeholder. If no one calls a meeting, there’s no meeting that week and we do and, you know, some of that is complicated at N 10, we have live captioning for every meeting, even staff meetings. So, you know, somebody has to remember to call off the caption and all this and that. But it’s really just to be able to say I have work to do and have everyone trust you that you’re not just going off to hike in the woods. It’s, we talked about that a lot in our session about how we trust each other. We have a commitment to each other to support each other and do what we’re meant to do. It’s time for a break. Virtuous is a software company committed to helping nonprofits grow generosity. Virtuous believes that generosity has the power to create profound change in the world and in the heart of the giver. It’s their mission to move the needle on global generosity by helping nonprofits better connect with and inspire their givers responsive fundraising puts the donor at the center of fundraising and grows giving through personalized donor journeys that responds to the needs of each individual. Virtuous is the only responsive nonprofit CRM designed to help you build deeper relationships with every donor at scale. Virtuous, gives you the nonprofit CRM, fundraising, volunteer marketing and automation tools. You need to create responsive experiences that build trust and grow impact, virtuous.org. Now, back to your four day work week with Vishal Reddy Karim Bori and Paddy Carlin K you. I would love to jump in because the meetings are one element of how we work. I’d love you to jump in because your voice is so base. You have a voice for some people. Tell me I have a face for radio. OK? I’ve heard that about 1500 times. You have a great voice for radio. Thank you. So I’d love for you to chime in. I promise I won’t do the only other time I did a voiceover, I started doing voices and the folks in the studio did not like that, we could probably skip that. I would love to jump on to something. Patty just said meetings are one element that suck our time there. We looked at the other things that our employees do that are also indicative of waste. And um and just just this rabbit holes, two tools we use internally are our Asana, which is how we communicate on threads, on different channels, on different topics for clients, operations, marketing. So we have all these threads. It’s basically a chat, right? So if we’re a virtual company, this is where we go for the communication in between meetings and then there’s Asana, which is the project management tool we use. So those are two places where we do a lot of exchange of information. One is organized on projects and we have to say, ok, I’m working on this part. We’re all doing this. Here’s my piece, here’s my update and those are basically nonstop updates. So we have an average of 25 to 30 clients on any given month and we are 16 to 18 people. We’re 18 now, that’s a lot to balance. So it’s not just how many meetings you’re in, in a day, but it’s how much of your time gets sucked. Every time you that chat function dings with a notification, how often you’re on, you’re checking your email, but you also have that slack open and you have a sauna and you’re watching the projects change and you go watching notifications on one and two and three things that’s overwhelming. And we work in the digital marketing space. So we know how these algorithms create um this toxic dependency and mental health breakdowns. So we’re super aware of it. So one of the other things we did is that we told nobody on our team can have their sauna and their slack notifications active. You cannot get a ding or you shouldn’t be able to see when it’s coming. You should be able to shut that stuff off and focus. So it takes a lot of habits to undo. And the one thing we talked about this morning that one of our former employees said was he called it The Great Unlearning. And I think that’s a beautiful umbrella for what it means to transition as a company and as an employee love that the great unlearning Michelle, why don’t you add some larger context to what uh what Patty and Kareem are sharing? I mean, I think their journeys are so indicative of what’s happening nationally, right? So in the last four years, hundreds of companies have shifted to a four day work week in 10 states have introduced bills that help shift, you know, mandate companies shift to a four day, 32 hour work week or, you know, create incentives for companies to shift to a four day work week. Last fall, the United Auto Workers Union led by Sean Fein proposed a four day 32 hour work week in their contract demands. With the big three automakers. Just this morning, my colleagues were tested in front of the Senate. Uh the Senate Health Committee had a hearing about the four day 32 hour work week. So, you know, this is a movement and you know, and a cause that is bubbling and we’re seeing, you know, really courageous workplaces that are, you know, led by courageous people like Kareem and Patty, you know, lead this effort and you know, take it to a place where, you know, it’s going to move in a direction where every worker in every workplace has this. And you know, we really see this as the future of work and not out of our goal isn’t to just make this a thing that is a nice to have, but a must have for an organization. And so I think one of the really amazing parts about this work that we’ve seen on our end is just that, you know, when organizations take the dive head first and they jump in and do the four day work week, when they are on the other side of it and they have a four day work week and everything is humming along nicely, they become really powerful advocates for it, right. So to us, that’s really proof that this is something that works and can work in even more places. And you know, one of the ways that we’re the most helpful too is often connecting similarly situated workplaces to each other, right? So we’ll often have organizations reach out to us and say, hey, we’re really interested in a four day work week. But, you know, just as we know, the five day work week is not a one size fits all model, the same is true of a four day, 32 hour work week. And so what we often do is connect similarly situated workplaces to each other. So that, you know, somebody who’s in a similar field is another field can sort of connect with that organization directly. And what we’re is the organizations that have already shifted are just always so excited to share their insights and best practices from what they’ve learned. And so, um this is something, you know, that’s organically grown so fast in just a few years. And if six years ago you were talking about a four day, 32 hour work week, people would have just laughed at you. And now people are like, they’re like, wait, that sounds amazing. And I know organizations that can do it. And even today during our session, we, um, I think cream asked people, you know, do you know any organizations that are on a 32 hour work week? And I want to say a third of the room maybe raise their hand, which is just a really powerful testament to what organizations can do when they think about their workplace. In a non zero sum way. You talked about gender equity earlier, you, you mentioned gender equity, say more about that, please, Michelle. Yeah. So, you know, a really important part of our work is really couching the advocacy for the four day work week. And our goal to build an economy that gives people time to care for their loved ones and care for their families. And we know that, you know, traditionally and disproportionately, you know, women hold the double burden. They often work full time jobs and then have to do unpaid domestic labor at home too. And so what we’ve seen is that, you know, one way we think about the four day work week is that it gives people more time to care for their loved ones. And one of the really amazing things is that in the trials that we’ve seen, there’s actually been, it’s not just about, you know, giving the people that are already doing the unpaid domestic labor more time to do more unpaid domestic labor. But actually, what we’ve seen is that, you know, amongst heterosexual couples, there’s actually a, a balancing too. So in those couples, men take on more of the domestic labor. And so, you know, part of what we’re seeing is, you know, this is we don’t give people enough time to care for their loved ones, to care for their families to do the necessary care, giving work. And what’s really amazing is just that it’s not just about giving people more time to do that, but also rebalancing it. So that work is better distributed amongst more folks. I’d like to spend more time. We have uh we have more time set aside. Uh Let’s uh I I’m going to your session description um how to ensure productivity and business outcomes are still achieved. I mean, we’ve touched on some of that accountability metrics measuring Kareem. You’ve been, I mean, are you still measuring productivity or it’s not necessary anymore anymore? We’re done, we’re done. All right. So that we put a lot of metrics and we say we’re not measuring that anymore, but that’s a lifetime journey. Very rare. Although we are, we are, we’re not measuring the four day work week anymore. What we are continually measuring is how are we using those tools that suck our time? So this slack tool, we are regularly going back to it and we just finished a three month pilot of how do we limit it? So we are constantly saying, are we seeing the small signals that tell us that our staff are reverting back to those bad habits and old habits? So let’s put a pilot together where we iterate test again, do before and after te uh measurements, surveys of our employees and then see if it’s worth continuing. I also, I, I think in, in, in ensuring productivity and business outcomes are still achieved. Um I, I’d like to talk more about the trust. I mean, the trust between employees, between the team members. Um You know, I, I think some of that I from the pandemic, you know, eroded. We, we, we hired a lot of people that didn’t get on boarded the way folks before 2020 got on boarded and they didn’t have the, they didn’t have the benefit of that. Now you have to. So a team has to be very, very conscious about bringing those folks in. Um and, and engaging, but let, let’s, I don’t know, I don’t know what more to say about Trump, but you all are experiencing it. So Patty say, can you, can you say more about the, the, the trust factor? Where is that from a movie or something? The trust factor I don’t know. I don’t know. As long as it’s not a slasher film. No, we don’t want to go in that direction. But, yeah, employee trust. Yeah, I, I think that feeling like you have to be able to see each other to trust each other is something that we’ve actually kind of gotten through partially because intens been distributed for 24 years. We did have an office in Portland, but only eight people live in Oregon. So we’ve been distributed all that time. So there was already a little bit of you don’t have to be in someone’s face to understand that they’re there and have that um feeling like you can trust them. We hired, mm I think the last three or four people that we hired were complete virtual hires. None of us had ever seen them other than on a little screen from stranger to colleague without ever an in person meeting and I completely trust them. We did have to get very intentional about on boarding. Um making sure that everybody knows how to use those tools because it’s crucial. And the other thing that has been a goal of mine for the last almost two years and it started with the pandemic was making our asynchronous work work better. And a couple of people have come up to me since our session and said that might be the next session for next year is let’s talk about asynchronous word because we have people in every time zone and how do we make that work? So on boarding is important, trust is important and just committing to each other to do our thing. Part of that onboarding has to be the A AAA lot of discussions or maybe even before, maybe even be in the hiring process, the culture, the culture of intent, the culture of mixing what, you know, what we stand for. You know, we’re, we’re not, I’m, I’m getting a little misty here. I don’t know, this is so lofty, but we don’t only hire for uh for skills, but we hire for value and, and trust, um values, values and trust. Um I don’t know. Do you want to add something Kareem on trust and on boarding, I saw you shaking your head. I do and I want to jump on the soap box and I’m going to be singing the gospel of leadership and the role and importance of leaders because I happen to be in this capacity. And that’s, I think where it starts. If we want loyalty. If we want folks who are going to stick around, it’s on us to set the tone for what trust is, it’s not going to be given to us just because we hired someone and you can be really talented and this is probably the message for any other business owner, CEO or nonprofit executive director. You can be really knowledgeable in a certain field that doesn’t make you a good business operator and that’s on us. Culture starts with us to have the humility and the flexibility to hear ideas that we don’t know. So I don’t assume that people just because we give them a paycheck and hired them owe us anything. We have to set the tone for what transparency, accountability, honesty, trust looks like. So I get really irritated very fast when folks start saying, well, our employees, I’m like stop, We create the conditions that employees walk into and we get to choose the environment that we create for people and we get to choose if we want them to come to work from a place of love or a place of fear, period. And that’s something I will hang my hat on and I will go to a fight with any executive director or CEO out there who disagrees with me, please. I am super easy to find. Ok. Did, did you uh avail yourself of the, the advice and council of uh work for as you were as you were embarking on your planning, your planning? No, no. Where were you all my life, Michelle, I introduced them. I’ll take the credit for that. 10. Avail itself of work for while you were preparing Tristan and Amy and I met with V Tristan Penn Equity and Diversity director at 10. I have it was just a guest. I think I think I it’s equity and Amy s everybody here knows her. So as we were making the transition. We had a call with Michelle and it was just such a good, you know, you’ve heard the things that he has to say and he asked us how we were doing and how we did it. And so when, um, you and Jamie reached out to say, let’s do this, I’m like, I got the guy, I got the guy and, and so it was kind of like we talked to you because we were doing it and then it just all came together. I’m really, really honored to be sitting here with these wonderful people. And if I could just chime in quick time, just that, you know, I think one of the amazing things that, you know, I connected with both Cream and Patty after they had begun to transition. But one of the reason, the reasons that we had, I reached out in the beginning was just because the way they were talking about the four day work week, you know, hated all the things that they’re saying today. And so it was just really one of the things that we want to continue building is just, you know, building a network of organizations that are interested in this and it’s so exciting to be here with them because they’ve already taken such leadership within their organizations and want to take such leadership with this cause that um it made so much sense to connect and collaborate and um and you know, it is very helpful for organizations to have outside support as they’re going through this change. It’s not a prerequisite, you know, these organizations. And so it’s really amazing to sort of see, to show that organizations can do this with no outside support, but we’re also happy to be that helping hand if needed. Alright, so why don’t you uh let folks know how they could reach uh work for if they wanna, or, or reach the website, if they wanna explore some resources about, you know, they’re thinking about maybe possibly considering sometime in the future, a four day work week where, where do they go? Well, so our organization is called Work For and our website is also work for. So that’s work and then for the number. So four.org and so if you’re at work for.org, you’ll see a page that says for employers, if you’re an employer for workers, if you’re a worker and if you fill out a quick form, then it’ll set up a conversation with us and we can sort of talk through what makes the most sense for your organization, but really encourage folks to reach out and we’re always happy to chat with people that are really interested in bringing this to their organization or to do any other advocacy work as well. Kareem, if I’m working at mix to do, I get my choice, whether I want Mondays or Fridays off, you can ask and then we look at which account you’re going to be on and we want to make sure half and half is well distributed between both. So my preference is considered at least it’s consideration. Well, Patty Carlin, I want to thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. And uh Michelle Michelle, thanks very much for sharing, interesting conversation. Fun, valuable, a little touching too, Tony. There’s only one day that everyone in N 10 has to have off and that is the first business day after the NCC. That is the only day everyone is off. You must take off its mandate. So if we see you online, you are in trouble. Everybody’s off on Monday the 18th of March this year. Don’t call in 10. Ok. And Friday, Friday. Well, tomorrow is Friday tomorrow next Friday, 1920 21 the 22nd. So it, so it’s a three day week for everyone at N 10 next week and well deserved. I don’t know what day it is. I just want to make sure you’re not swapping the Monday for the Friday. It’s a complete capitulation and everything we just talked about, right? Antithetical to everything we just talked about. All right. Uh Vishal Kareem Patty. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for being with our 2024 nonprofit radio coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference where we are sponsored by Heller Consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits. Thanks for being with us. It’s time for a break. Donor box open up new cashless in person donation opportunities with donor box live kiosk. The smart way to accept cashless donations. Anywhere anytime picture this a cash free on site giving solution that effortlessly collects donations from credit cards, debit cards and digital wallets. No team a member required. Plus your donation data is automatically synced with your donor box account. No manual data entry or errors, make giving a breeze and focus on what matters your cause. Try donor box live kiosk and revolutionize the way you collect donations. Visit donor box.org to learn more. It’s time for Tony’s take two. Thank you, Kate. Summertime can be a good time for planning. Uh I’m thinking specifically about planned giving, planning for a fall launch um or even planning in June and July for August launch because August is national make a will month. So that would be a good time to kick off planned giving fundraising or do a campaign if you’re already doing planned giving. But the summer months, you know, June, July uh and or August could be good, very good for planning uh for either that August or September launch. Um It’s not limited to planned giving, of course, you know, summertime, slower. Uh Now I know it’s harder to get people together because there’s more vacation. But you know, that’s, that’s overcomeable. We don’t, we certainly don’t wanna deny people vacation time and everybody calls it PTO now. Wait, I’m on PTO. You get the email messages. I’m on PTO. I’m away on PTOW. When, when did vacation become PTOPTO? Sounds, uh, I don’t know. It sounds like something military vacations, you know, vacation sounds like fun. PTO doesn’t sound like fun. Uh, I don’t know. It sounds like something is mandated. Uh, just, I’m on vacation so we don’t want to deny people their vacation so that you can do your summer planning naturally. Uh And that would contradict what I said a couple of weeks ago about taking time for yourself because you need to take care of yourself before you can take care of others. So summertime can do both though. It can be your planning time and it can also be the time that you take for, for rejuvenating for relaxing yourself so that when you come back, you can take care of others, right? Summer can serve two purposes. So thinking about planning this week using summer for planning for that uh maybe August campaign or, or something in the fall. And that is Tony’s take two Kate. I am so ready for the summer and I have all my vacation plans planned out and I’m, I’m so ready to hit the beach. It doesn’t sound like you’re gonna be doing a lot of planning for the fall. Sounds like you’re in the balance. Like if there was a balance, you’re weighted heavily toward the time off rejuvenation, relaxation side. Oh, yeah, I know. I mean, I’ll go pumpkin picking in the autumn, but that’s about it. Ok. That, that’s a pretty audacious plan you have. Uh, ok. Very, very. All right. Congratulations on that. We’ve got VCU but loads more time here is intergenerational communication. Welcome back to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio coverage of the 2024 nonprofit technology conference in Portland, Oregon where we are thoughtfully sponsored by Heller consulting technology strategy and implementation for nonprofits with me. Now are Doctor Lauren Hopkins and Doctor Carla Torrance. Doctor Hopkins is social impact consultant at prepared to impact. And Doctor Torrance is consultant at Ire for racial health equity. Doctor Hopkins. Doctor Torrence, welcome. Thank you. May I call you Lauren and Carla? Would that be ok? Doctor Laura Carlin Car Lauren Lauren? Ok. I’ll do doctor Doctor Carla. No. Ok. Absolutely. Your names, your titles you earned them. Let’s talk about, let’s talk about your topic. Your session is strengthening organizational culture through intergenerational communication. Uh This struck me because uh I’m a baby boomer and I do a lot of work not in, I mean, I have my own company but uh I do a lot of work with folks who are younger and um and even, you know, I do planned Giving, which puts me with folks who are in there, seventies, eighties and nineties. So there’s that uh there’s that dynamic also for me. So uh so I guess maybe for selfish reasons. Uh, I was very interested in this topic but I think a lot of, I think a lot of folks are struggling at across all the generations working with folks who don’t consider work the way they consider work or don’t think about, uh, I don’t know, don’t organize their lives differently that they just, they conceive of work differently. The purpose of work, the reasons for work, they conceive of family differently. Are these some of the reasons that this session is uh critical Doctor Carlo for sure. And what it is, it’s our work, it is our community. It’s everything it has for the first time in history. Five generations are in the workplace. Traditionalists, baby boomers. Gen X millennials and Gen Zs, which they’re now calling zoomers traditionalists. Is that the silent generation also known A K A the silent generation traditionalists. Um Dr Lauren, do you want to sort of frame this up for us before we get into some of the details? Yeah, I’ll tell you how we got started. So last year at N 10, at the NTC conference actually presented a session. It was a workshop on teaching technology skills within an intergenerational workplace. And so it was a nice size crowd and Dr Carla was in there and really enjoyed the session and came up to me afterwards and we connected and here we are. And so we’ve done a couple of projects together and of course, when in 1024 came up. We wanted to create a part two for this year. And so we were really excited and we actually presented this morning. You’ve already done? All right. All right, good. So we can maybe talk about some of the questions that arose, questions or comments. OK. OK. Um So one of the I’m just taking from your session description in the, in the agenda, uh common communications challenges in the workplace. Of course, we’re talking about intergenerational. Um You know, why don’t we start with? Stick with you, Doctor Lauren. What, what, what are some of the common challenges? Yeah. And so one of the um it’s very interesting that with the various generations, how we just prefer um modes of communication best and so with traditionalist and the baby boomers, they prefer more face to face communication. Um Yeah, more face to face, more written memos and things like that. And so if they are able to get in front of someone um that is better or if they’re able to talk to someone on the phone, that’s what they prefer also for um Gen X. No, Gen Xers. Yes. For Gen Xers, they really prefer um phone or verbal communication also and they’re also very quick learners. And so with Gen Xers, if they’re able to integrate some type of technology in it, think about like slack or texting or what not, they’re very fast learners. Um I’m actually a millennial and so I, I did not even say that but um we are two different generations. So I’m a millennial and Doctor Carla is a baby boomer. And so which makes our um our relationship very unique. So will you expand in 25 NTC? Bring in, bring in a traditionalist or someone on the other end? Maybe a maybe a gen X maybe. So I was thinking maybe like a panel with all with representative. I mean, it’s all born of yours from last year. So how do we overcome these? I mean, so as the baby boomer, I would rather just get up and go walk over to your office, but you’d rather I slack you or, or pick up the phone. I wouldn’t mind the phone. But that would be my second choice. My first choice would be the more laborious, the more time consuming I admit the more time consuming, the more invasive to you. I’m, I’m admitting that I still would rather knowing all that. I still would rather just get up and go talk to you in your office. You would rather I slack you or pick up the phone. Well, it’s very interesting. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean you personally your generation. I got you. Yeah. And so traditionally, with those generations and the stereotypes, the research says that yes, that is um that is normal and stereotypical. However, we really have to consider the person. And so for instance, like me, um like millennials traditionally, we prefer texting something quick. I prefer a phone call. And so people know if they need to get me, they should just pick up the phone because I’m probably not going to text back. And so, um, and that’s just not just because I don’t like texting, but I get distracted and things like that. So we have to understand who the person is and communicate and ask them, hey, how do you prefer that I communicate with you and adapt to their preferred communication style? So we have the stereotypes but then also, you know, the person and the human aspect to it. But then I have to ask a challenging question, a question that challenges that a bit. So if I prefer the in person and you prefer the phone, where, where, where are we, we need to meet in the middle somehow and, and compromise and um yeah, and just figure out, OK, how do we work on this? And so an example with myself and, and Doctor Carla, sometimes we’ll text but often times we will um she’ll call me if she knows if she trying to get me like pretty quickly is a call or she knows that, OK, if it can wait a little bit, a text will be OK. But it just depends on the relationship and the person and just finding a common ground and communicating that from the beginning. OK, Doctor Carla, what about the different conceptions about work? You know, the generations consider work. I think different, different purpose. Uh younger folks consider it, you know, it’s a part of my life, but it’s not that big a part where I think, I think older folks consider it more, you know, they tend to more self identify around their work, you know. So you get, does it make sense? Different conceptions of work across the generation? And I think that COVID um was, was definitely an eye opener for everyone for engagement. So what you’re talking about is actually engaging with the community at work or just engaging with a person? Whereas um for years, uh baby boomers being in the workplace, you know, everybody, you know, um you know, you know, their Children, they all, everybody’s grown up. Well, once COVID hit, then we were all sent home and some of us went back. Well, they saw a difference in engagement, engagement. Those who went back to the work workplace, they saw a little bit more engaging in the whole community of work. Whereas those who were remote didn’t really engaged. So they were, they saw different generations, for example, the the baby boomers are more engaged, but the millennials and gen Z are less engaged because they’re remote, they’re remote, they’re not connecting as much. And so that connecting and engaging is very important for well being for anyone that is, is, is is on a job. So what do we do to overcome the lack of engagement. And I think that that’s where it comes in where maybe a hybrid or meeting at least once a month that there is, there is a time that we all do come together um and see one another and that meeting that coming together in person in face to face is for real, not just zooming or teams, but actually coming together and meeting and talking. And how are you doing? How’s your family? Because sometimes even when we were just tell me about your family, you don’t even know about your family, right? Because a lot of times when you’re working remote, you don’t even have to show your face. So a lot of people are not. But what we’re finding is that is making you even more, less engaged. Research is showing that there’s less and less engagement and you need engagement for well being. So we have to be intentional. Leadership needs to be intentional, all levels of leadership, not just all levels from board members, all the way down to every person within the organization needs to be intentional of wanting to engage. Because I can, if I can work on four jobs, if I can work on four projects and just give you what you need and send you on your way, I don’t have to connect with your organization. Just get, just get the money, just give me the money, pay me. And here, here’s the end result, the product I still I’m not connecting. OK. OK. Um Other challenges. I mean, we’re just, we’re just getting started. Well, you know, when you’re talking about I’m modes of communication. Um Again, we can’t generalize, we can’t use the stereotype is that traditionalists are like this, baby boomers are like this, those millennials are like that and those, those, you know, Gen Zs are like this, we can’t do that because even in our relationship, um if I text her, I mean, I, I mean, I hear from her all day whereas if she texts me, I text her right back now. That’s not normal. I mean, it’s not normal as far as baby boomer versus millennial. It should be that if everybody is saying what everybody does, she should be able, she should be calling me and it’s, oh, hi. It’s so nice to hear from you. How’s your family? Because I’m a baby boomer. Right? No, we’re to the point she, she wants to and she’s different, but we have learned and I think we’re test tubes for this and that’s why this workshop was so good for us to work it because we, we’re, we’re showing the strategies and how helpful it is to learn one another and to respect one another’s mode of communication and not just say, oh, that’s how you are. That’s how your generation is. No, it’s individual. It is and it’s respect, it’s respect of whatever it is. Whatever your mode of communication is, let me respect it and let me see where we can drop our drawbridge down and where can we come together so we can really communicate otherwise we’re, we’re just sacrificing the productivity of the, of the office of the mission. Right. I mean, we’re, we’re just, if we’re not, if we’re not listening to each other and respecting communications preferences, it’s just gonna be, uh, it’s not gonna be as an effective or an organization as it could be. It’s robotic, it’s not human, it’s, it’s just not, it’s not personable, it’s the long lasting. OK. We have um strategies for strengthening intergenerational communications conversations. We’ve talked about some share some more. Yeah. And so um so we talked about um go ahead, we talked about the um the different modes is what you’re saying, the different modes. OK. Yeah. OK. So we talked about um in what type of mode, how we will, is that what you’re saying? What’s the best way to communicate with you, whether you, whether you like face to face or whether you like text or whether you, whether you want social media. And so finding out which one is best and how can we be more effective? How do we find this out? We survey everybody with a uniform survey and then share the results or? Well, I mean, you can do that but you can also bring that human aspect to it and one get to know people, you know what I mean? Oftentimes in the workplace and even in the community, but especially in the workplace, I feel like we’re so, you know, just stuck at our desks or, um, there’s a lot of assumptions and just ask the person, especially as you get to know them, it might come naturally or sometimes you might have to ask, hey, I noticed that you haven’t responded to my teams. Um, I noticed that you haven’t even looked at it yet because I didn’t see little icon come up. Um, is there a better way that I can reach you if you, you know, if I need something? I noticed that it’s been like five hours, you know what I mean? And so they might tell you, oh, I don’t use that thing. Ok. Well, that’s not the best way to. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And sort of adapt and, um, and then, and then, you know, and tell them what you prefer. Also another one of the challenges I was going to say was learning from each other. And so it’s not really a challenge but it’s one of the different strengthening aspects. And so we always can learn from each other within the workplace. And so especially intergenerationally and we all have various experiences and knowledge and we can all grow from each other. And so that communication piece is not just about being effective in the workplace, but it’s also about just growing as a person growing as a professional. We can all learn from each other. And so really honing in on that and even within the workplace, how can um organizations and employers really foster that opportunity for intergenerational learning. How can we encourage people to grow with each other and from each other? So is that a co mentorship program, maybe it could be a baby boomer being linked with a genzer or oftentimes in the workplace. Now too, there may be a millennial who is supervising a baby boomer. You know what I mean? And those are opportunities for growth. Also, next week, apps, tools and tactics to future proof your nonprofit. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech. You find it at Tony martignetti.com were sponsored by Virtuous. Virtuous, gives you the nonprofit CRM fundraising volunteer and marketing tools. You need to create more responsive donor experiences and grow, giving, virtuous.org and by donor box outdated donation forms blocking your support, generosity. Donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org, fast fund, friendly, flexible fundraising forms. Love that I just, I I can’t get over the alliterations. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. This show, social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that mission study. Be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.
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