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Michael Hoffman: Into Focus Nonprofit Video Survey
Michael Hoffman, CEO of See3 Communications, has takeaways from this survey that YouTube contributed data to: What works in video? What doesn’t? How do you measure so you’ll know? Plus he explains why he’s a big fan of Google+ Hangouts on Air. Recorded at NTC in April. df
Matthew Fisher: Activating for Fun, Celebrity and Organizing
Have fun in your social networks, because fun means viral! Also, identifying the VIPs in your networks and empowering your supporters. Matthew Fisher is chief marketing officer for Fission Strategy. Also from NTC.
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Dahna oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host it’s, the memorial day show i hope you enjoy your long memorial day weekend, but while you do perhaps keep in mind that many people through the years through the generations have given they ultimate sacrifice so that we could enjoy the freedom that we have today, so saluting all our active duty and veterans and those who have made the ultimate sacrifice remembering them over memorial day, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d suffer the effects of dendritic carat itis if i had to see that you had missed today’s show into focus non-profit video survey michael hoffman, ceo of c three communications, has takeaways from this survey that youtube contributed data, too. We’ll talk about what works in video, what doesn’t and how do you know how do you measure? Plus, he explains why he’s, a big fan of google plus hangouts on air that was recorded at the non-profit technology conference in april, also activating for fun, celebrity and organizing have funding your social networks because fun means viral also identifying the vips in your networks and empowering your supporters matthew fisher is chief marketing officer for vision strategy. That interview is also from the non-profit technology conference on tony’s take two, you know, festival del fund-raising that was last week. Here is my interview with michael hoffman talking about thie into focus non-profit video survey welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of the non-profit technology conference and t c the hashtag is fourteen ntc we are at the marriott wardman park hotel in washington, d c with me is michael hoffman. He is ceo of c three communications and see three is s e and the numeral three michael hoffman, welcome to the show. Thank you. Good to be here. It’s a pleasure to have you. Thanks for taking time in a busy conference day. Your topic is very interesting and the survey says with e into focus non-profit video report could do for your orc. Tell me about the into focus non-profit video survey. Well, we’ve been working with organizations for many years now around video and non-profits and we always get asked the same questions. What can we do with video? What works with video? How do you do it on? A budget who’s doing the best work with video, all of those kinds of questions, and we realized that there is data about almost everything in the nonprofit world there’s data about e mail and there’s data about social media and there’s data about fund-raising and there was no data about video, and so we went to our partners at youtube. If you’re going to do something with video it’s a good idea to do it with you two is a good it’s, a good name in video, and we went to edelman, which is a a big p r agency, and that works a lot with data and doing reports like this on we got together and we said let’s, find out let’s, find out what people are doing. We did a survey of organizations in north america, we had about five hundred organisations respond. We also got from youtube something they had never released before, which was actual platform data about what non-profits air doing on youtube. So what? Successful there in terms of views and which channels are doing well and all of those things, so we got all of that data. We also did qualitative interviews. We we interviewed lots of folks who are from the executive director position down to the person making videos to the digital managers all about. How are they using video? What did they see working? And we put it all together in this report called into focus, which you can download fromthe sea three website at sea three dot com slash into focus. Okay? And, uh, i presume a lot of what you’re goingto share his lessons fromthe survey, right? What? How should we as we break this down through the categories with survey house, we best approaches for listeners? Well, i think that the, you know, the big question is, you know, do organizations think videos you useful tactic? And, you know, what are they doing with it? And i think overwhelmingly organizations, they’re saying videos important, we need to be doing more but then some interesting gaps because when you ask them, are you budgeting maur? The answer was not know pretty much, you know, that they’re not, and then i think one of the really interesting findings was when you asked them, how do you measure success of video? Seventy three percent on ly measure success anecdotally. Or through views of videos, which is what you see on youtube and, you know what i always tell organizations is views never solved your problem. You’re working to solve views, don’t keep the lights on youse don’t create donation very much a vanity metric, like, like facebook fans, right? Exactly. It’s, it’s, it’s fine to have that kind of metric if it is connected to something that really matters for you. And you understand how it’s connected to that, you know, i think more important than views is whose views you know, are you getting and they lead to other kinds of engagement. So those are the things that the survey revealed when we looked at who’s doing well, we saw that it starts with planning, you know, there’s. So many organizations that say we need to make a video and the question is why? What do you expect to happen? What’s your goals? How is this going to do something for you and the organizations that reported thinking about that and asking those questions? Are the organizations that reported success with video? So the idea that you know why you’re you’re working on it and what your goals? Are is the first step that remarkably many organizations are not you are not taking. Yeah, i think the thinking about the the strategy and the goals that are going to get us there is often i mean, this is not a problem limited tio our shortcoming limited to video, i had guests talked about in terms of campaigns dahna engagement, whether to dio whether to engage in a new social channel or not. All right, i’m seeing this right? We’ve always about not planning shiny object syndrome. You know, it’s, you see, you hear about the newest channel or you think you need something or boardmember tells you that you should be doing something, but it’s not grounded in a strategy, and i think that’s, really what we encourage organizations do is think, what can you do? What should you do, what’s the best way to do that? And to really understand that moving forward to ask the hard questions up front. What advice do you have around the budgeting issue since so few non-profits are aligning budget with their desires around expanding video, right? I like in it too. I feel like we’re in the phase with video. That we were with the web in the mid to late nineties. If you asked organizations you know, in nineteen, ninety six or seven do they need a website? Some would say they have one already. Others would say, oh, yeah, we’ve got to get one because we see this web thing is really taken off but if you told them at the time that they would have a whole department that worked on the web, they would tell you you were crazy. They would say, where in the world could the budget come from to do that that’s impossible that’s a pipe dream and i feel like that’s where we are with video video is eating the web in terms of the amount of content the where people’s attention are the cisco estimates that ninety percent of all internet bandwidth will be video within four years. Oh, my good, really? Yes, on you know, we’re darling, we’re seeing you know the web turn into a interactive tv platform and dahna organisations have to become publishers in the same way, and broadcasters, you know, in the same way that everybody else does on videos a big piece of that and there’s a biggest barrier is a paradigm shifting cultural barrier, which is organizations didn’t grow up needing to do video, so they have no capacity and they’re not. They don’t think that way, and so when they think about video, they think about hiring a firm like ours to make that one big, you know, gala event video or something like that and that’s, not the world we live in, right? The world we live in demands a regular content and so that’s a huge paradigm shift for gin is ations. Oh, you have a bunch of things in mind. What about mobile? As as people are going more mobile? Is that increasing their their affinity for video are decreasing, so they’d rather not see it on a little screen. Oh, actually, the opposite video is the fastest growing mobile service that there is we’re seeing as for g has rolled out across the united states were seeing video. Um, grow incredibly and the other piece about mobile and video is everyone has a high quality video camera in their pocket. That’s remarkable. I mean the quality you see iphone video incorporated into feature films so the quality that you can get from these devices that are in our pockets is amazing and it totally the gates this argument that, you know, we can’t afford to do it it’s really about mind share in time more than it is about we need, you know, big investment dollars to do some video things in addition to having a video production studio in your pocket, you also have a distribution channel in your pocket, right? Exactly. I mean, the revolution of peer-to-peer communications, you know, through social media and the ability to reach people through their social channels and, you know, to be online all the time that way is incredible, it really is. So i’m not saying and, you know, we make great video, so i’m not saying there’s, no need for outside support ever, you know, in videos, but i think of it more like a pyramid, you know, there’s that one great video that’s on your website that explains what you do that you khun keep for five years, it probably makes sense to spend some money and make that really good the day to day content that describes, you know, where you are in a fundraising campaign or trying to get people to be advocates or giving an update about a storm that just happened that you’re working on all of that can happen from your phone from other kinds of equipment that you can have in the office and really should be internal capacity. And so we’re spending more and more time training people about how do you do this and not just camera skills, but really the the strategy piece, which is what should our video strategy be? And how does that make sense? I’ve seen such moving campaigns where the organization asked donors or or even better than donors, people benefiting from the service of the work of the organization. Tell us how you make your own, make your own video turned the turn their cameras to yourself and tell us how our work has improved your life saved your life impacted you enormously. Yeah, i think if you haven’t engaged community video’s a great way to do that, it’s still, for a lot of people, high bar, ask, you know, to produce video, so makoto sharing, for example, is much more popular and easier for people to do than video, but we’re seeing now. With services like vine that allow you to make a six second video or instagram now has a fifteen second video, it becomes much easier toe to do that bond. We’re seeing, you know, cem, entrusting things that general electric. I did a thing about science. They wanted to promote science, which is just connected to their brand. But it’s really kind of a social good thing, and they did something called six second science, and they said, how much science can you do in six seconds? And they invited a community of people you know, publically to do six second videos about science, and then they aggregated those they curated and aggregated those into a youtube video with all these different six second science video and it’s terrific it’s a great way to mobilize your community. I think lots of organizations are are doing that, and many more could be doing that e-giving anything tooting getting thinking. You’re listening to the talking alternative network get in. E-giving cubine do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants, and we pay attention to the details. You may miss our culture and consultant services, a guaranteed to lead toe, right, groat. For your business, call us at nine one seven eight three, three, four, eight six. Zero foreign, no obligation. Free consultation. Check out our website of ww dot covenant seven dot com. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Dahna duitz is email us a growing frontier for for video? Well, we are seeing some new technologies that will allow email video to be played inside email so without clicking a link but emails a great driver for your community in general, i think if you ask organizational people often, how often do you think your your donors or supporters come to your website? They’re usually wildly inflated numbers from the reality because we don’t normal people don’t go backto organizational web sites, you know, unless you’re drawn there for some reason and the most of the time what’s drawing you there is something that was in an email and email is still the number one digital way to connect with people, and we know that when you say there’s, a video to watch the open rates of email goes up and when you say there’s a video to click on, we know that the click through rates go up so video is the content of the type of content delivery that many people want to have and so thinking about how are we using video? And where is it in our stream of communications? Overall is a n’importe n’t strategic. Question that organizations need to ask compelling moving video doesn’t have tohave high production values are being particularly expensive. Teo in production, right? No, i mean, there are a lot of the videos that get shared that are wonderful and moving our high production value video eliminated, you know, no question, but no, i mean, i think story trumps production that’s what i always say so, you know, if you have that moving story and, you know, you can tell it straight to camera and it’s going to be moving, and we saw that, you know, we see that all the time, really, where there’s things that are just telling the story and organizations have that, and i think one of the demands of being able to do that is for the communicators and organizations to be more connected to those stories within their own organizations, because it’s often not the communicators who are on the ground doing the work that connects them to those stories so they need toe open up the idea that everyone in our organization needs to be a storyteller. So that becomes, again part of this cultural shift that’s going to create, you know, and have an organization thinking of themselves like their media company. They’re they’re a broadcast of publisher where our stories. How are we finding them? How did they float up to our communications folks? How do we decide what make videos about? That path is not articulated very often in organisations, particularly smaller ones. So i think, you know, it starts with just having that conversation and that’s goingto do a lot. But google plus hangouts on air to me that seems like google is giving you the tools to create a a network you, khun broadcast on dh, put your message and and but but not follow the tv model because it’s enormously interactive, you see, promise, i think that’s. Absolutely, absolutely. I think that’s a great point. So when we look at youtube channels, for example, most organizations in ninety nine percent actually one hundred percent of organism growing because i haven’t seen one that’s doing anything different yet they treat their youtube channel like a repository for everything that every video they make, right. So you make a video for a campaign. You make a video for the web site, you stick it on youtube. So you two just a dumping ground for a lot of videos, every channel on youtube that’s really successful, the ones with millions of subscribers and millions of views, and they don’t treat you tube like that as a dumping ground. They treat you too, as ah broadcast channel that needs to have regular content toe build audience, just like your radio show needs to have a schedule and a regular way for people to find it for audience to grow for people to share it. Same thing with non-profit video hangouts on air give you an easy way to create regular content. So the idea that you could do, for example, a show using a hangout where you interview people from the field or experts or donors or whatever it could be ten minutes long. But if you post that every thursday at five o’clock, you’re gonna have an opportunity to build engagement and build audience if you’re putting a video once in a while, whenever you happen to have one on youtube, you have no opportunity to build audience. So i think the hangouts to me is connected to that question of how do we create mohr and regular content you know among the content we created and how, how can a non-profit use youtube in that way to the extent that it allows it’s not as robust is hangouts on here, but you alluded to the most successful youtube channels doing regular distribution have done well, you know, the most successful youtube channels are often individuals who are making videos themselves. I mean, with no crew, no, nothing, they’re they’re shooting themselves with video, they’re editing it themselves and their, you know, and what is it about them? They’re engaging people within? You know, they’re funny or they’re engaging or they’re doing something, and i think organizations need to think about, well, who in our world has that personality? People with personality is exactly the workers on our side. I mean, it’s like into the cooking show people don’t watch cooking shows about because it’s about cooking, they watch it because about personalities or competition or other things. So where is where those people who were those people in your organization? Among your donor’s among your supporters among your clients. Hoo, you go, that guy should have his own show, or that woman should have her own show, those are the people you want to figure out, okay, how do we get them? And hangouts on air is a great free way to start you khun do alive thing and it’s recorded and you don’t have to edit anything, and it goes right on your youtube channel. So that’s an easy way to start, but it takes a commitment, teo, you know, begin doing that, and i think that this there’s so many other benefits to doing that for an organization, right, they’re going to hear more stories that they can use in other places they’re going toe, you know, they’re going to create a certain kinds of internal communications is going to be helpful for them to do an initiative like that and empowering people who don’t think of themselves bad enough that the organization doesn’t think of itself as content creation and producers, but empowering people within the organization, individuals who don’t think of themselves as frontline communicators, teo to, in fact be such exactly. And i think this is connected to the bigger trends that we see around social media. You know, the old model of communications is corporate brand voice, you know, the voice of god. Talking in a hub hub and spoke model, right? So this corporate voice produces content and pushes it out and tries to interrupt people with it. You know, a new model is individuals communicating with each other and it’s a two it’s more than a two way conversation. And so that means that you have to have these channels where people can talk back to you and you engage with them, whether it’s video or whether it’s, facebook or whether it’s any other channel and then also people don’t want to hear from corporate brands. I don’t want to hear from your logo, i want to hear from people. So who are those people? So you need toe pig peek behind the curtain is what i say. I don’t want to see oz, the great and powerful wizard, i want to see the guy behind the curtain, and so we’re seeing he was a hell of a lot more charming and and fund then then the video projection of his of his image. So exactly, and we’re starting to see it. I mean, i saw something recently with a big ngo hyre, you know, had a of some videos at dealing with a storm and instead of saying, you know, we big organization need you to do x, you know, they said here’s, we want to take you inside our war room, about what’s going on and how our planning and so you see all these people who have been up all night, you know, working on maps and all kinds of things happening and and you, as the viewer feel like, wow, they’re people behind this and they’re giving of themselves for it, and i can be part of that and that’s very different kind of communication and, you know, it’s related to ah reduction of trust in brands and maura peer-to-peer communications in general and organisations need to be there or they’re not going to succeed this morning at the opening session of ntcdinosaur wasn’t there, but i know you were there you have the do gooder awards wanted to share with listeners with what that was about? Sure, about eight years ago we started to do gooder awards because we knew with broadband that video revolution was coming, it was definitely coming, and we wanted to take the few organizations that we’re really doing it and jumping. In and doing it well and hold them up as examples to try to encourage everybody else to do it on dh. So we created the doolittle awards a few years ago, youtube came to us and said, can we adopt these awards to become the official wards of the non-profits on youtube? And we said, yeah, you could do that on dso ever since we partner with them, we’ve had wonderful sponsors and partners and ten eyes, one of them and cisco is another and dot sub this year, and nickelodeon and and and other terrific sponsors. And, um, every year at the ntc, we announced the winners. And so any organization that’s on youtube in the non-profit program, i can submit their videos. We have different categories, the four categories that we have our youth media categories. So we’re having young people who are making videos, we have an impact ex category durney that’s sponsored by cisco and that’s. Really about what did that video do so it’s? Not just about is it a good video, but it’s about did it have impact and that those groups have to submit a statement of what the impact wass then? We have a funny for good category because we’ve seen time and time again, the videos that move people to action that move people to share are funny, and we wanted to call those out and they’re fun to watch, and then we have best overall video on dh we can put the links up to these videos, i think we’re on dh point people, but buy-in, you know, they were terrific and, you know, literally the audience today they laughed and they cried and you confined the video’s, all of it, it youtube dot com slash do gooder easy enough, share one of the really poignant moving out, you know, i’m sorry, one of those sort of heart string videos that it sounds like there were a couple of, well, the winning overall video was partners and mental health from canada and a video about teen suicide, and it was the thirty second piece, and the video shows teens very angry at their parents and then slamming the door like running into their room and slamming the door and slamming the door and slamming the door. And then the last time the doors slam it’s actually the mom on. The other side of the door in the room and it says it’s, hard to live with a with a team, you know, with depression, it’s, harder to live without one it’s, a very intense and, you know, packed a tremendous amount of emotion into a very small, you know, time frame. And the funny for good video was also canadian. Remarkably, the canadians have been doing doing great and that’s, actually from the canadian cancer society, and it was about testicular cancer, and it was about checking your nuts. It’s hilarious. And so i definitely recommend you. You go to see it because it’s just it’s funny and it’s taking something that is a serious issue and it’s educating people through humor and i think that’s great. And so, you know, there’s, no issue, really, that you can’t find some humor, and i think it was that a longer one. I would need more than thirty seconds. I was, ah, a minute and a half that would be about my speech all right night. I need a little more than thirty seconds. Let’s leave with listeners with a couple of tips that come from the survey, but how they can be mohr i’ll just say generally effective, and you can choose whether that’s in production or distribution, right? Go ahead. What can we leave? Well, i think that, you know, the one takeaway i would i would want to leave people with is the idea of mohr you need mohr content, you know, we’re in theirs, you have many more channels to put content in. You have social media, you have your website, you can’t rely on a single video anymore, you have to be thinking about more now, more can come from occasionally using professionals to produce videos, but more should also come from being able to grow your capabilities around production as well. And this is important, especially for small organizations. Mork uncomfortable curating videos made by other people. So for example, if somebody was working on the storm in the philippines and they said, we’ve got to go shoot the destruction footage there and it’s gonna cost, you know, all kinds of money, i’d say, well, why would you do that on youtube? There’s a thousand videos that show that really, really well and guess what? All of them allow you to embed those videos on your website and so you can take a video that somebody else made, and you can wrap it in your own wrapper on your website with your own calls, action and utilize something that costs could have cost hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars in particular with documentary film trailers, for example, really high quality stuff on almost any issue is there for the taking, and i would say two organizations make playlists on youtube, which fills out your channel with other people’s video use this video on your website shared in your social media with your calls to action and be wrapped in the halo of somebody else’s great work, excellent! Thank you very much, michael. Thank you. Michael hoffman is ceo of c three communications and how come people follow you on twitter? I met michael underscore hoffman on twitter. All right, tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntcdinosaur profit technology conference. Thanks so much for being with us. Thank you very much again. Michael hoffman. Generosity. Siri’s supports non-profit radio. You’ve heard me talk about them. Sponsor’s like them. Help me to travel to conferences like ntcdinosaur last april, and obviously that helps me bring interviews to share with you generosity. Siri’s hosts multi charity peer-to-peer runs and walks, they do all the back end work that you’ve heard me talk about also. And of course, they have the charity support team that helps you to get participants for your five k run or walk, and then also helps you with the fund-raising you mean that’s the whole purpose? So that’s why they have the charity support team. The whole purpose of these things is to get money for your charity. The statistic that they share is that first year generosity siri’s fund-raising exceeds average thirty year fund-raising for charities that do their own events, do all this work and host the thing all on their own so you can skip years wanting to jump right to third year fund-raising they have events coming up in new jersey, miami, atlanta, new york city, philadelphia, toronto, those air all this year, you can talk to them by picking up the phone. David linn, l i n n is the ceo at generosity siri’s and he’s at seven one eight five o six. Nine triple seven and of course they are on the web at generosity. Siri’s dot com very grateful for their sponsorship. Last week i was at festival del fund-raising in italy. It was amazing. It was terrific. Great fun to be with about seven hundred italian fundraisers from throughout the country. My session was on planned e-giving which they call legacy e-giving in italy. Very grateful to the festival. President valerio manda rally for inviting me and just everybody’s there was you know what? What italy has as its reputation. Warm, friendly, delicious food and the closing night was a terrific party. There is a video on my on my site. I got some video from the opening night and also from that closing night party that is at tony martignetti dot com many thanks to festival del fund-raising and that’s tony’s take two for friday twenty third of may the twenty first show of the year here’s my interview with matthew fisher of vision strategy from the non-profit technology conference. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc non-profit technology conference twenty fourteen we’re at the marriott wardman park hotel in washington d c i guess. Now is matthew fisher. He is chief marketing officer for vision strategy. The workshop topic is activating your organization’s social network for fun, celebrity and self organizing. Matthew fisher, welcome to the show. Thank you, tony it’s a pleasure. I’m glad you’re here. Thank you. Invite your welcome. Thank you for taking time. Um, okay, we’re ah, we’re going. We’re going to activate our our constituents are social network for fun, celebrity and self organizing. What? What? What is the need around? What do you see that non-profits could be doing better that they’re not doing so so well? Yeah, it’s a big topic in it, you know, fun and celebrity, you’re certainly very different from thie organizing piece that i think most non-profits air, you know, on a daily basis engaged in and, you know, we sort of look at it is taking a new approach to engaging with those advocates and supporters. You know, we’re very versed in sort of the organizing concepts, but we also want to push towards making things fun because ultimately fund means viral and with viral, then we start to see things that you get a halo effect, for instance, when you start engaging celebrities ah lot of folks don’t believe celebrities, you know will engage on social media and there’s numerous examples where that’s not true, but, you know, for us we look at it is, you know, fun is more likely to be shared. It certainly is when when you get into the technicalities of facebook, you know, a drink goes up and certainly your clout creds scores as an influence or go up as things become fun because those are ultimately what we share online. So for the non-profits we really want them, and this is the lesson we want to resonate. We want to think about fun and celebrity in terms ofthe activating these guys to help your cause. Okay, well, let’s, let’s, let’s not get out, celebrity, we’ll come to it. We’ll spend a little time, but thie audience is small and midsize non-profits and and i think the likelihood of getting celebrity is kind of small. Sure. So let’s. Focus on fun and we’ll have a little time on maybe recruiting a celebrity for your cause but on the fun side how do we, uh i mean, how do we identify? What do we know? What’s going? To be fun for our, for our constituents to play with. Well, i think here we have to look at examples that air, you know, have been out in the marketplace and certainly there’s no definition of fun. Yeah, you know, but i think memorable and unexpected are to sort of elements of that recipe. I’m sure a number of people i’ve seen talks by youtube and they talk about what actually makes ah, video fun or viral on they have sort of three core principles there one is thiss unexpectedness and an example they uses, gentlemen, is riding his bike down in new york city and the bike lanes and he’s actually calling attention to a very serious issue, which is construction and hazards and so it’s it’s ah, sort of a monty python play where he’s running into construction trucks and taxis. And so this is something they show is, you know, something that touched in a core issue in new york city and ultimate lead to twenty million plus views of that video? Sort of. The next piece is something they call tastemakers i’ll use the word influences because i think that’s more relevant for us, but you know, touching and getting into something that will allow those influences and tastemakers to call attention to your your cause. And in this case, with videos, they used the example of somebody has shot a double rainbow in the backyard and sort of sat there and and yelled and screamed and couldn’t believe it. Oh, and it had been on youtube for six months and really had less than five hundred thousand views, probably extended family and friends. Yeah, and so but what happened was jimmy kimmel showed it on one of his late night shows, and almost immediately, of course it went viral. And so the key there was not the dennis lee pushed it towards jimmy kimmel, but it caught his eye, and so it really had nothing in it of it, other than sort of a fun, emotional response that we typically see and then the third is ultimately is the copycats that is ultimately what we see with buy-in viral and fun, um example, that is there’s a square cat that an animated story they’ve been going through on youtube on and really only had a couple hundred thousand views. But then as people started copying and reproducing this animated cat with different clothes on different nationalities, different holidays. And so we saw a replication of that. And so we think, sort of that unexpectedness the tastemakers. Oh, and ultimately copycats tragic can work in social media of all types, for fun. Because ultimately, you know, we believe once it gets fun, we have a balance of messaging betweens a serious issue on something that’s. More lighthearted. Yeah, wand. Your examples are well, certainly the bicycle you’re bringing you bring something that’s, light hearted. Teo, as you said, you know, a serious issue in new york city is hazards for for bike riders. So it’s got to relate back to what your charitable mission is all about. Exactly. It’s it’s gotta be it’s. Gotta be somewhat tangential to your issue. You know, the sort of the technicality behind fun or pulling it off actually, obviously is a little bit more difficult, creative. But, you know, the first part of it is, you know, we had vision and attentively are our email based platform. So we we love e mail and we see email is sort of the third leg of that social strategy and the reason is because certainly over the first two legs, certainly the first two legs are, you know, the social media platforms of facebook and twitter, they’re the big beasts, they’re the ones that have the most online time, the most phone usage time on they’ve dominated, obviously, but email has been in, you know, for the last decade has been a major source for online organizing and fund-raising still very important still very, very importantly, open rates. Well, you know, that’s that’s, the challenges that those those open rates in this click rates and those donate rates are dropping because we just have more, more email coming in and are they dropping overall? Absolutely okay, absolutely all right. And so, you know, as part of that third leg, you know, we believe that you know, you’ve gotta activate your full supporter base and there’s a number of people on your email database who our supporters, but not necessarily liking you or tweeting you. And so we really encourage people to look at that because generally speaking, you’ll have fifty times your audience in that email database. Then you will on your social media platforms now, if you get a celebrity a celebrity typically might be someone that we define as a clout score forty and hyre they might have an audience a total audience of three point two million on the reason is because they might have fifty or hundred thousand followers to start, and then they have a high enough credit score that it actually propagates through to their friends and family. But if you take your email database and you actually segmented out and look through there generally three to five percent of your email database actually can outperform one celebrity and the reason you know let’s say more about that, and the reason is because when you take your database, you generally have people who care about your cause and there’ll be a number of people in there who don’t necessarily have the huge following is saying and curry and on what she was able to do in two thousand ten with their her haiti tweet was tweeted the year, but what they are able to do is these are people who have already your message is resonating with them. They may have already donated, and what you see is a sort of one hundred twenty times. Effect and the idea being that if only if you have let’s, say, fifty thousand e mail addresses, you might actually still have an audience of roughly four million because of that effect. But how do you find these three to five percent to are the key influencers or the motivators? So, you know, certainly for smaller email list, you might just be able to visually go through and sort of figure it out manually by looking at their pages or another another way is to use platform’s like attentively, and certainly i’m sure there are others, but the idea being that it actually will match up those e mail addresses to all their social profiles and then scan those posts and pulling all those scores and the idea being that you can actually identify who those folks are and they may not be household names they made, you know, they’re not i mean, we’re down. We’re not talking about celebrity. Yeah, you know, i guarantee you that down at the washington post, there’s, probably forty or fifty journalists who have clouds scores over forty on who we would, we would certainly locally believe a sort of local celebrities, but have that reach because of obviously who they work for, who they are. Okay on, once you’ve identified these, these the top key influencers, what is it you’re asking them to do? How do you do, then approach them? Once you’ve identified, we think approaches that ultimately you’re going to, and this goes back to the engagement issue and challenge with the supporters and donors, when you start to find those people, they’re generally your vips are influencers. And so what you want to do obviously, is, you know, as the title here suggests, you need activate and the way we recognize that is we say that i’m looking at those vips, we actually want to start a segment them down into different groups based on the topics they’re talking about. And so you might have some of your supporters talking about climate change, and they may not follow you, but you might care about climate change and so weak suggests maybe take a baby step and start to follow them or reach out to them via email and say, you know, we’re talking about the same causes here. You want to join our effort, you could like us, you can also retweet some of our issues there and it’s very powerful, because when you’re looking at three to five percent it’s, not a huge number might be only thirty or forty people depending on the size that email list. But again, they still have that reach to get to three or four million people. So it’s it’s quite effective and it’s also something that it’s sort of buried inside your your database or your email platform or your syrian platform. We haven’t mentioned the blogging. I mean, they might maybe they don’t have a huge twitter following, for instance, but but their site gets a lot of hits, absolutely blogging is just as important, and, you know the challenge with blogging of courses, you know, it’s, even maurin structured content just like sort of the posts on facebook and twitter, but you, khun, obviously segment them down based on topics or terms and start to put them in a group. Let me give an example so that you know it, it makes a little bit more sense, but, you know, we typically look and work with non-profits and, you know, their databases aren’t necessarily large, you know, varies we have some customers that have very large databases, but let’s, certainly with the small ones that we want to focus on our listeners. Yes, mom, but so they might only have five, ten, fifty thousand emails, and it might be past donors. Or it might be people who showed up at rallies or somebody just signed up for the newsletter, but fifty thousands of good number, because it’s actually not that hard to get to, you know, in terms of what let’s, let’s, let’s, divide that by ten. Ok, for our for our listeners, i want to deal with something that’s manageable by most ultra z even just use five thousand as our example. Okay, so in the five thousand example, they might have five thousand, but there may be only three hundred there that are actually very active on social media and have that cloud score we talked about. And so they’re sort of your influence or group. Obviously, for three hundred, you can send very easily consent individualized message to them, you know, sort of expressing your your want for them to retweet some of their stuff and on their platforms you can also then put them into segments. And so this is one of our non-profit clients did is they started looking at who’s, mentioning some of the key words that they follow. I used the example of climate change, it might be elections. It might be a variety of terms, and so they put them in a segment called supporter no, and they actually sent him a bumper sticker. And so they’re actually trying to actually build some sort of relationship. They’re more than just sort of this mass mutual, like, yeah, especially before you’re asking for some kind of called action, you know, get to know the people start having a conversation about the fact that you know you’re sympathetic to our cause, and we notice, you know, we know you’re spending a lot of time on climate change in your example, and we’d like to get to know you better. I mean, you’re trying to build a relationship before you start asking you and we’re going to follow you and you’re gonna follow us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Oppcoll have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Lively conversation, top trends and sound advice. That’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio. And i’m lawrence paige nani, author off the non-profit fund-raising solution. And so then you can start scanning their posts as you go forward. Oh, and ultimately, if they retweet you or retweet something that you think is on message with one of your issues, then they become an ambassador. They’re literally in a new segment inside the database on then that will shoot off. An email is you brought a called action, you know, for a little donation, and the idea is that, you know, we think it resonates better when you’ve built that relationship, however small it might be, and you take it off line and the example here, you know, we start to see engagement really jump because most most organizations non-profits don’t have time to do anything other than sort of a monthly blast here we start to see opens increased to two hundred forty four percent of what they normally see, which is twenty, thirty percent open rates are generally what we see because it’s personalized it’s, individualized and it’s triggered on a behavior that just happened it’s right there, the recall is immediate because they’re getting it immediately, and we also see one hundred sixty one percent increase generally in the cliques. So you’re getting that called action and you’re starting to see ultimately revenue lift or donation left here generally of three to six times of what you’d see on a regular email blast. And so, you know, it’s it’s something that no matter how small your list is, you can get a lot more effective using that third leg of sort of activating now the facebook, twitter and ultimately email to really make it a lot more powerful. Um, and we’ve got obviously hundreds of clients that are doing this in a variety different areas, but i thought that example was most apra poto what we’re doing here because of i’m sort of building that relationship, okay, part of the workshop title is for ah, activating for self organizing. So what do you mean by self organizing? So i think with self organizing, i think it’s similar to the example and that, you know, you’re calling on people that maybe are sort of like minded to you and you have to identify them. They may not know about your organization, but you you’ve been able to scan through either their posts or their tweets and understand that maybe there aligned with your organisation. And so you can do things like not just call for donations, but ultimately call for action. Real action, there’s. A number of clients that i work with capitol hill, and, obviously, their causes, and not a sign a full lobbying effort. But a call to action. It might be something that triggers a kn e mail or fax to senator based on certain votes that are coming up. And so, you know, those those air sort of the more traditional cause actions that we see in the self organizing, you know, and we think that, you know, platforms that involved. Obviously, social media, as well as email, can be more effective, similar to what we saw in terms of engagement and ultimately converting them to that call of action called action in self organizing. Okay. Let’s ah, spend a little time on celebrity a couple minutes left. What? How do we identify the celebrities that that may be appropriate for us to reach out to on? Do keep in mind our listeners are small and midsize shop, so we’re not a list that there’s not a list non-profits oh, and maybe not not even pursuing a list. Celebrities necessarily mean there are lesser known celebrities who could still bring a considerable following. Uh, so but how do we how do we identify? And every celebrity is not not open about the causes? Andi, you know what? A lot of times if they are open, they may already be allied with a charity. So prods of them coming to us, it seemed kind of small. How are we going to find the right people with knowing all that? Well, you highlighted a couple of issues. One is obviously identifying, but the other is sort of weighing the risk. And so, you know, once you take on a celebrity, take on the full persona from yesterday and tomorrow, right, way unknown tomorrow we can’t predict tomorrow, but what we do see with celebrities is that they do. Have ultimately that immediate reach. You know, in one of the earliest examples we talked about, they have the halo effect in the immediate reach and they tend to have, you know, even celebrities with relatively low cloud scores, they can still reach a million plus in a roughly about eighteen minutes that’s generally the life span of the tweets and celebrity world. Okay, so you don’t have a lot of long term promotional effect there, but what we do see is that it does activate people who maybe weren’t even close to your cause, and it also is something that we see cross platform, so it might be a tweet that ends up on a variety of different social networks because of who that person is particularly it’s funny, you know? And the other thing is, celebrities really help with the search engine optimization, and we won’t go into the reasons why, but identifying the celebrity is actually not that difficult part of where i’d like to start on part of it is this where the process starts? That’s right is picking the right one’s a part of it is sort of looking off line. Which one do you? Think you identify with your organization does do they care about the issues that you care about? Are they on the right or the left? Those are things that you certainly you care about in terms of aligning your message because you don’t want to have a celebrity activate and help you, and then all of a sudden be off message two weeks later it’s part of that risk one way you can do it certainly is toe look at what’s in the popular press and gather a lot of what some of the comments are in the popular press you can use platforms that scan similar to what we do with the donor databases and supporters. You can put a celebrity’s email address in there, most of them know one or two and identify some of the social networks they’re on and see what the types of things that they care about. You can also approach them privately, and we’ve found certainly an example. Tomorrow on the panel will be the will be goldberg example, it’ll be the pluses and minuses of this strategy, but, you know, they literally just tweeted out to them on the site on her. Her profile and we’ll be then retweeted it, and it was something that there was there was no deal backroom deal. There was no phone calls, there was no rep agents, but it was actually something that they thought she she actually cared about, and they were right, and you’ll see that an example tomorrow well, in more detail, but our listeners won’t be there so what’s right? What was the cause on? So for her, the cause was it related to her love for for animals, and i won’t go into specifically because it’s something that’s being presented, but i will give you another one that that we’re talking about two more. Another was ann curry tweet from two thousand ten it was actually the twit of the year, and she had actually been contacted by doctors out borders to help them get into haiti after that disaster, the air force is blocking the planes that were allowing some of these crucial supporters in there, and and curry saw an opportunity there to retweet to get them to help planned those doctors. Obviously, and this is an example of someone who really only had fifty thousand supporters, but our followers, but it immediately got retweeted to the point where it reached over four, point three million people in that eighteen minute span. And so, you know, there are timely causes, too. You have to take advantage of events in the news and again, if you’re scanning posts of what your supporters we’re talking about, you’ll catch a lot of those things that are in the news, locally and regionally, that may not be in the national news, and you could take advantage of that. And so, you know, we we certainly believe, you know, a celebrity can help, but we also think that the influences that are already in your database can help you just as much because they really care about what you have to say. They’ve already proven it by their interaction or their donation or their activism, and they can’t have that same reach and that’s what generally we say is take baby steps, okay? They also you know, so i don’t have that dance. You minimize your potential downside risk, that’s, right? And what the celebrities gonna be doing or saying as you, you know, tomorrow and the day after, yeah, it’s, it’s similar to putting all your money into one stock, yeah, way don’t know what the future may hold, and we certainly don’t know if that type of celebrity will, you know, have the staying power. But certainly your supporter bases it’s a much broader base, and certainly they have the same influence with their followers on their social media networks and and they can certainly broadcast to their audience with the same type of general volume that you would see. All right, we’re gonna leave it there. Thank you very much. Matthew fisher, chief marketing officer for fishing strategy. Thanks so much, matthew. Thank you. I appreciate it, tony. And my pleasure. I look forward to speaking again sometime in the future. All right, all right. Thank you very much for joining us. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of non-profit technology conference two thousand fourteen. I’m grateful to everybody at the non-profit technology conference and at and ten, the ones who hosted the non-profit technology network. Always great fun, tio have be to be with that crowd. And next week, the ceo of inten will be returning that’s, amy sample ward, our social media contributor and also alison fine returns next week. To continue our discussion on matter-ness had to show people that they matter to your organization. If you missed any part of today’s show, you can find it at tony martignetti dot com. Our creative producer is claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Sure, social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell. Social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules will be with me next month to do fund-raising day. Our music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. 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From the Nonprofit Technology Network’s (NTEN) Nonprofit Technology Conference, Lisa Rau and Tim Sarrantonio advise how to choose the right CRM system. Should you RFP? Who to get involved in the decision and how do you come to consensus? What do you ask for in writing? And a lot more. df
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Duitz hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host and i’m very glad you’re with me because i’d suffer the effects of sarcoidosis if i was forced to endure the knowledge that you had missed today’s show choosing and living with your c r m from the non-profit technology networks non-profit technology conference, lisa row and tim sarrantonio advise how to choose the right cr m system should you r f p who to get involved in the decision and how do you come to consensus? What do you ask for in writing and a lot more? Also, what makes a strong proposal? Cindy gibson is our grants fund-raising contributor and principle of synthesis consulting she’s been on the funding side and tells how to jack up your odds of getting the grants your after including what do program officers hate to see in proposals on tony’s take two my thank you. Here is my interview from non-profit technology conference around choosing the right cr m system. Welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of ntc twenty fourteen the my voice just cracked the non-profit technology conference. We’re at the marriott hotel boardman park in washington, d c we’re going to talk about in sickness and in health, choosing and living with your cr m with me. Teo, talk about that. Our lisa row she is ceo of confluence and tim sarrantonio tim is an account consultant with z two systems. Lisa. Tim, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. You’re cr m you’re a constituent relationship management software isan this just choosing a tool? It is. Yeah, but and go a little deeper than that. I thought i thought this was a pretty simple thing. You pick one and you and you pick one and you’ve done the hard part is, how do you think? How do you pick? Okay, there’s there’s a lot of choices out there. There certainly are. And you know what i like about the approach of this? Because my backgrounds ten years of fund-raising so on the side of the the chooser, basically, and what i like is that we’ve all pledged to be agnostic in our approach. This is not a vendor pitch session. You and andi, i think that’s that’s going to make it really, really exciting. Okay, so how ah lisa, you you clean it up for me. How how do you start that? Where the first steps of of making this very important could be very costly but doesn’t have to be a decision? Well, like a lot of things in our technology consulting practice, the answers are fairly straightforward in that it all depends on knowing what you want the system to dio, and you’d be very surprised at how many non-profits go to choose a piece of software without having actually thought about the specifics of what they wanted to do. Okay, well, we have about twenty five minutes together, so i’m not gonna let you off that easy. We’re not wrapping up now two minutes, and we’re coming up on ten seconds. Not that i’m counting, but i don’t have a choice it’s in front of me s o we’re not letting you have that easy. We’re gonna get considerably more detail. So how do we figure out i’ll stay with you? Lisa, how do we start figuring out what we want this system to do? Who should be in that conversation? How do we make that make those choices? Well, sierra constituent relationship management, everyone. In your non-profit really is interacting with constituents and so that’s a fundamental part of the decision making process is getting input from across the organization because the serum is really most effective if it is being used by everybody in the organization it’s an enterprise class piece of software. So you need to include really all of the all of the people in your organization, one form or another, which you agree with that i would definitely agree the most interesting thing that i found is that there is a disconnect between development and finance, sometimes where they don’t speak the same language, and so getting him in that conversation early is vitally important. You know, the correlation between accounts receivable and even something basic, like language fund-raising language like fund campaign? What does that mean when it comes to actual finance, reconciliation, accounting, things like that. So all the stakeholders? Absolutely, though, when it comes the program side volunteers, board members, please get them in there. Boardmember sze wai boardmember why boardmember is because they hold the keys to the castle. Basically, i’m on two boards, actually, yeah, and you’ll be just amazed at how disconnected some board members khun b but isn’t this ah, this something that’s going to be on a day to day basis that the organization’s going to use? Sure. And why should aboard be be spending time on such a thing? Because at the end of the day, at least in my opinion, your c r m is directly tied to your mission. It’s it’s about the people that you’re trying to help and it’s not just a tool, it’s something that’s going to help you reach your goals. And so, because it is something that overall helps dictate the direction you’re going and the success that you’ll have that’s why the board needs to be involved. Okay, lisa, you want to say anything more about the board? On my experience with board involvement? It’s mostly they need to approve the purchase. If it’s going to be over a certain amount that’s really the bulk of their involvement. They are also actually in the serum because their constituents so but that’s just data in the serum. Yeah, they don’t need to attend demos or things like that. It’s it’s. Ah, but they need to know what is going on. Okay. Well, tim, it sounded like you were suggesting that they should be involved a little soon earlier than its okay toe mean youtube from people you have differences of opinions. Fine, but it sounds like you were suggesting they be more involved than lisa was suggesting more. Just, like, sort of approving approving payment and towards the end, i yeah, i do think they should be okay for directly involved. So you’re not offended. Are you? It’s hard? You don’t. And you don’t look offended. Okay, well, now you set up a challenge. Okay? Thank you. Look, ok, but, tim, you’d like to see them involved involved throughout the process. Yeah, but maybe not to the detriment. You know, the whole too many cooks in the kitchen type of thing to you’ve got to balance it. But my approach, maybe it’s, because i’m on the board to where i don’t want to just be a rubber stamp. You know, i live in chicago. We have enough of that. So okay, you’d like to actually have legitimate oversight. Absolutely. And some transparency. Okay. Let’s, grow cloudgood. Um, lisa what’s, our what’s. Our. You host these meetings for clients. When? When these early conversations? Absolutely. Facilitate that. We’ll interact with the vendors and try to make sure that all the right questions are being asked and that they’re getting the information that they need. Now, earlier today, i re interviewed peter campbell, who was doing a session. You know, peter de beer, apartment and tcb ear. It was, is he was a twenty year, i think. He’s, one of the main guys that coordinates really okay. And tcb ear listeners is ah, it was a thursday was thursday night. Friday night? No, when when’s the overflow capacity when he was the one counting how many people they were taking that’s on how many people show up? I didn’t even know that he had that role. I would have asked him all about it. Okay, well, it was a wednesday night reception before the formal opening of of ntc on thursday morning on dh there was at a bar. Okay, so his topic is r f p c s o he said, does this does this requiring our f b i you know, i did talk to peter about that cause i give presentations on our peace and we’ve looked at me. Connecting people is amazing. No, i even tell you the universe. I feel like i i volunteered to come to be part of his talk. We we’re not big fans of our peace nowadays we’re much more fans of doing a lot of upfront research and finding a few really good candidates and then having in depth conversations with them because more and more with the technology it’s made to be customizable and so in the past, you have an rp where you’d check up check off. Yes, yes. No, no. And then the one with the most checks, winds and big requirements matrices and now, it’s, because the systems are made to be customizable it’s. Not a question of if they can do any particular thing. It’s a question of fit. Does it make sense for them to to be customized, to do any given requirement and that’s where you need to engage with the vendor and really have a conversation rather than an over the transom? R f p with a long bunch of requirements? Ok, tim is doing a lot of nodding. Yes. Yeah, our fees are very interesting from the vendor side it’s something that when i first started my job i never thought that i see as many and what’s what’s fascinating is they’re all different, but they all are at the core. The same thing that basically leaves it was just talking about in regards to just ask questions that that’s that’s really, at the end of the day, that’s all you need to do. I don’t have this big check list because when my approach personally is that i’m not just hitting. Yes, i’m actually linking to support guides for features and so that’s my personal approach. I know some vendors that they outright just say we’re not going to do any arm piece if we see in our p we’re not gonna answer it and ours is mawr case by case. Is it a good fit? It’s more consultation in terms of the approach, but every time i see it, i go. I’m going to be hitting wire and a bunch of times and make cell spreadsheet, and they’re all different and it could be easily covered in a half an hour conversation. Okay, you didn’t think that shooting getting dink, dink dink you’re listening to the talking alternative network to get you thinking. Nothing. Good, do you need a business plan that can guide your company’s growth seven and seven will help bring the changes you need. Wear small business consultants and we pay attention to the details. You may miss our culture and consultant services a guaranteed to lead toe right groat. For your business, call us at nine one seven eight three three four eight six zero foreign, no obligation free consultation. Check out our website of ww dot covenant seven dot com. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Hyre oppcoll and i like conversations. I prefer conversation’s over over documents since and please describe, you know, in an email or something or or a proposal, i’d rather i’d rather talk myself. That’s metoo how about you, lisa? I’d like to talk sometimes, okay, not so much right now, you little but a mike in front of your eyes that’s why they’re still i’m still back on that. Some of the vendors don’t respond to our fees. I’d never understand that. I mean, if you’re in here to be bill business, you do have to respond to our peace and frankly, there’s important things that you need to ask vendors to write down and document project plans, pricing sometimes technical approach it’s important, you can’t just get rid of the requirement to write things down or respond to very specific things of interest, but i do think the over the transom approach doesn’t work well with serums because you’re really you should be able to really quickly xero in on three, two, six serums that are really good candidates, and you do that by triangulation is what i like to call it, which is a process of asking pierre’s doing your own internet research, accessing guides like idealware air’s kind of consumer lorts for software posting on listservs. So you get a variety of different sources of information and that triangulation will lead you pretty quickly to some really good options that you’re going to then go into more detailed and it’s just a better approach to choosing a cr m then than just sending an r f p that you probably don’t fully understand that you got off the internet somewhere to thirty different companies and wasting twenty seven of their time. It’s not a good process way could be considerate of the vendors. Exactly. I think we can extract. I’d like that. Yeah, person a czar’s metoo system representative you mentioned idealware lisa, which i have heard and i’ve read their survey, and i think i covered it on this show. They don’t, they do, and they do an annual survey of serums. Or maybe it was just a one time, two years every two years, every two years, and it was a very comprehensive short. It wasn’t a chart format of features, and i’m remembering correctly. Yeah, they have felt one of those nice bullet charts with you. Know yes, no kind of stuff, but they do all kinds of other cell for comparisons this well, but that that does have a really good place to start if you’re looking at serums, okay, because it’s free idealware dot com is that where we find that dahna work dot or god? Or ah non-profit i’d forgotten that it’s it’s, i think it’s dot org’s we google idealware idealware yeah it’s a a cz the lisa rolling your eyes, right where’s that for i’m not going to call you out for the working google. Can you form a good folk? Are alright? I actually did the demonstrations for the idealware report for work, okay? And i can attest, it is utterly comprehensive and agnostic it is it is probably the best starting point for someone who wants just a general overview of well, where do i start that go to that? Go to that report? Absolutely. And it’s unranked it’s just it’s just saying this is what it does, this is what it doesn’t d’oh, and and they basically that the process is very interesting. There’s there’s a syriza questions it’s, it’s almost like an rmp innocence that they ask you and then they follow-up with a demonstration a half an hour demonstration to get into the report, and then they follow-up with a full hour demonstration of the system itself to really drill down for each of the systems that every single system oh, i don’t remember everything every single one, the people who get into the top, like ten or something that there the duitz they’re the ones doing the long form demonstration, but every single potential isn’t at least doing a half an hour and that’s split between a relatively small staff way love idea where they’re absolutely fantastic people over there. And, you know, i love maine too, which is where they’re based on outstanding resource latto okay, all right, so what’s, our what’s, our next step on we’re tryingto do this chronologically, i think ueno everybody should be in the in the party and we of our triangulation research that we’re doing what’s our what’s, our next step, you need to get them in there for demonstrations and to kind of assess the fit because it’s not just about the product it’s about the company and there understanding of what you’re trying to do with the implementation and so you really need to engage in a personal level. I think it’s gives the best results block off a half day haven’t come in, do some demonstrations, have some conversations and assess again the fit. Not a half a day for each one the whole day. You know, half a day is about all most people can take before their brains are full. Right? That’s for all of our three to six now for each one i each one having so many hours? Yeah, you know, i think don’t try to talk you out of it. I know it takes that long because he’s serums most of the time they’re they have a lot of features and it’s very important. That staff e-giving come to see in the different areas whether it be development, event, management, project management or grants management so on and so forth. And they all need to see that their needs are being adequately represented in the product. I see. Okay, so there’s different time slots, i guess, for different constituents within the organization in tow. Let’s have the finance team for forty five minutes and let’s have development, et cetera. Okay. Yeah, okay. I’ve been in situations where there’s been. Excuse me. Twelve people on the call. And the one thing i would stress, though, is try to keep internal discussion like philosophical talking to a minimum. You know, we should already been passed that you’d be surprised where people like erupt into arguments about like, well, no, this is how we do membership. And it was like, what? Wait, i’m sorry. Do you need to know about if there’s an end date on this form? Because we have that but it’s so yeah, i would say a minimum an hour, the definite thing that you need to ask for his references arika hoos hoos are you using a current system? Do you have any clients that have converted from that? Can i talk to them? Converted from from your using like cr m a and you’re looking at sea rmb ask? Has anyone come from sierra? Okay. And if not that, you know that’s fine. Don’t concentrate so much on geographic area. A lot of people say, well, i would like something on, you know, in new york on dh that i get that to a certain extent. But i would mork concentrate? Kind of like what lisa was talking about in terms of the fit? Ah, what do i want to use this for? I want to talk to somebody similar size are you volunteer or based like my non-profit where it’s all volunteer? Or do you have staff? How many staff? How many constituents? So that that’s my general recommendation to now we’re starting, teo now the narrow the field. But if we started with three to six that you had suggested, lisa, we’ve had our product demos we’ve checked references actually checked the references right? Don’t actually call, but don’t ask for them. I guess that that’s an important second part of the reference process, is actually speaking to them. You’d be surprised how many non-profits i work with it? Never check references. I am shocked, actually, i i’ve i’ve heard that too. I mean, we’re not around siara, but even employment decisions, right? And they ask where or what you know, they ask for references for whatever purpose and then they don’t get checked. It’s a capacity in your capacity building issue? I agree, i think it’s good dismaying. Ok. Even a quick email, you know. You don’t have to outright call them. Just drop him a line if they don’t get back to you. It’s people are busy, but at least try. Okay? All right, we’re narrowing the process. What’s. So, what’s, our next step is we’re down down to a field of let’s say we’re down to a field of two, all right? From our three to six where we’ve got to, well, i like to go down to one. I mean, hopefully i think that’s our goal you talk teo gonna run two parallel exactly after the three to six you’ve had these sessions would be ideally, you really would have one that you’re feeling is the one that you want to pursue and that’s the one that you’re going to check the references for and do all the other due diligence, which is kind of the last stage of the process. You’re negotiating a contract, you’re finalized, pricing. You’re getting really detailed on schedule, we’ll we’ll get to those, but we’ve glossed over consensus. What if finance and development and program? Oh, and the ceo don’t come to a consensus, you know, i haven’t seen that much, and i i’ve done this. For a lot of organizations, help them tio come to consensus and usually it’s pretty pretty. Clich really that’s been my experience. Everybody seems to coalesce around one. I had one where where they did go back and forth. It was a very, very big ticket purchase. And the choice was between something conservative that was thie. Everyone else is using this system like no one gets fired for buying ibm versus a very, very high tech, relatively obviously more risky, high tech, newer thing where they would be leading the way. And that was really ah, a big decision for them. And they did have to involve a lot of board committee input to see which direction they wanted to go to in which one did they put him on the team? I was wondering the same thing. I was disappointed they actually went for the conservative approach, but the but they ended by saying, you know what? We’re coming from the dark ages, so this is just bringing us up for today. We’re going to implement this and live with it for a few years, and then maybe then we’ll be ready to to go to the high. Tech thing, so that was actually a very good philosophy. They weren’t seeing it as something they were goingto have forever. They were seeing. It is just a step up from where they were starting, which was excel spreadsheets and index cards or something like that. They had spaghetti custom code that had been developed twelve years ago that had just taken on a life of its. And they had long out out ground long ago. Alright, so usually tim, do you usually see a coalescing around around one? I do, um, it’s ah, you know typically it’s going to come down to one or two and a lot of people, and i’d actually don’t discourage this. Go with your gut. What instinct is that i think is important lots of things in life, but that’s a topic it’s just it’s just very interesting to see, because i also think corporate culture is important too. And i know that’s harder to quantify. But if you just get a feeling that like you’re being pitched all the time yeah, uh then that you’re going tohave that almost throughout the entire usage of your systems then support it’s going to go from sails all the way down, teo say support implementation so i think that it’s an important thing tio to kind of take into account, too, but obviously you’ve got to make sure you’ll like it and it’s going to work for your mission on an everyday basis. Okay? You know, from the data entry person all the way to the e d who needs the reports? Okay, we’ve made our choice. Now, lisa, you were said earlier with flesh. Just a little bit about what needs to be documented. Wave made our selection. What do we need to get in writing? Commitment’s, etcetera. What are we thinking about? Their yeah. It’s. Another area that i see non-profits habitually not doing as much as they should in the area of negotiations. I’m always so surprised when i send over our contracts and they come back without any markup. It all they just signed him. And i’m not even sure they read. Hm? Yeah, and this i they don’t necessarily understand that software is negotiable, that the price that is quoted is negotiable and there’s a lot of terms and conditions in those contracts that also should be negotiated. And so that’s something that a consultant actually can really help you with. But you want to make sure that you’re not paying for that your payment is tied to deliver balls, not just will work for ten hours, and you pay us for the hours independent of what we do and that there’s a schedule that there’s remedies if things go wrong, that they’ve really thought through the project plan, you also want to look at the personnel because you don’t want to get the most junior people on the team who they just hired, who doesn’t know the product themselves thatyou wantto, you know, review resumes and approve project interests, so on and so forth, there’s a lot of things that you can do to ensure or at least increase the chances that your project will be a success because these types of projects can go wrong many, many, many ways that’s a whole nother talk the hundred ways that you can screw up your serum implementation and at the contract time is where you really want to try toe put all those things, i think through all those things, and i have a contract that tries to prevent them from happening. You go ahead. I was just going to say the biggest stress, uh, that i’d love to piggyback on because that’s a fantastic point is data conversion. Well, we’re going to get there, ok? So we’re going to get there now. We’re now going to import or we’re gonna convert. We’re going to make our change. What do we need to be? Well, okay, anything more you want to add about being at the contract stage? Absolutely. And conversion. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Figure out what is in the terms specific to data conversion. Is the vendor going to help you have duplicate merging if everything in your spreadsheet is in all caps, are they going to help with that? Are they going, teo assist in any sort of, you know, clean up our, you know, reconciliation and things like that. And you know, how many hours is it going to take for them to do that? What do you specifically paying for? And if you’re opting for kind of a stripped down version like what help are you getting with that as well? Ah! Latto non-profits and i’ve seen vendors and this horrifies me that they just give this like blanket quote, and it doesn’t take into account. Oh, this is seven access databases that we need to convert and combined and just get a specific number that you’ve drilled down and understand off all the things. The absolute details on what data conversion actually includes. Okay, i thought, okay, now we’re into conversion. What kind of support you would be expected? Well, it’s, everything well, it’s, everything you just mentioned. What? What? Uh, i don’t know what else could go wrong and conversion. Mrs issue, this is a huge process tonight you’re going. The main thing is to have people doing the conversion. You have done it hundreds of times before. It’s not actually technically risky. It’s just can be a variable amount of effort on dh that’s. What? What messes up projects? Okay. All right. Let’s, move. Too bad mapping, by the way. Mapping watch. Jorgen joe, i know this show now have drug trail on this show. Youjust transgressed. Okay. Wow, i’ll roll it back. Role may be available. How does how does this field translate into the new systems field? Basically his first name equal to first name, you know? And then it gets progressively. Much work complicated it’s. Okay, that’s all how do we know when we’ve outgrown now? We’ve had our system for several years, and how do we know when its not working? What are signs that well, people are complaining what’s happening? How do we know? I don’t know if you don’t know, then you probably haven’t. It should be obvious, i think i mean, you can always do more and do better. I haven’t been in any non-profit where there weren’t opportunities to do more with their enterprise software that they were not exploiting, but that doesn’t mean they should ditch it and again, with all that non-profits have to focus on if there aren’t clear and obvious issues with their existing systems, i wouldn’t be focused on don’t mess with it. You probably have other things to work out. If it feels like you’re hurting cats with your data, then maybe it’s. Time to look. But if it’s not coming up on a day to day basis, then yeah, probably you’re fine because we could get training. Sure you revisit anything that the vendor might have released, you know, check their release schedule. Check the release notes, see what’s. New all right, maybe it’s covered and you just didn’t know it were going to leave it there. Lisa row is ceo of confluence. And tim sarrantonio is account consultant for z two systems. Thank you very much. Lisa. Tim, thanks for being the guests. Thank you. My pleasure. You’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of and t c the non-profit technology conference. Thanks so much for being with us. I am grateful to everybody at non-profit technology conference and and ten the non-profit technology network for setting us up at the at the conference. Got lots of great interviews, many more to come generosity, siri’s sponsors non-profit radio. And that makes it possible for me to travel to cool conferences like and to get amazing interviews to share with you generosity. Siri’s hosts multi charity peer-to-peer runs and walks. They do all the behind the scenes stuff that you’ve heard me mention, the licensing, the permits, the portable bathrooms. Ah, the emcees, the announcers, all the tech equipment for the timing. They take care of all that. 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I’m very grateful that you listened to the show week in week out if you’re getting email alerts from me, you welcome me to your inbox every thursday, it’s only once a week, but i’m grateful for that also we’ve been doing this show for very close to four years, the fourth anniversary is coming up in july. The two hundredth show will be in july. That’s that’s really something, um, and i’m grateful that the audience has built up to over nine thousand listeners, and i thank you very much for being part of that. Thank you for listening. Thanks for your support. You know i’m always interested in your feedback. You can get me on twitter through my site. Tony martignetti dot com through the facebook page always interested in your feedback and i’m glad you’re with me. Thank you that is tony’s take two for friday sixteenth of may twentieth show of the year with me now is cindy gibson. She is our practice temic she has a phd and over twenty six years of experience with non-profits, she has had leadership roles for several national foundations and non-profits she was a non-profit times top fifty power and influence, sir she’s principle of synthesis consulting, c y n th e s i s and you’ll find her on twitter as at caen gib si n g i b cindy gibson welcome back. Hi, tony. Sorry you can’t be in the studio all the time. It was nice to have you first, but you live in boston, but we’ll work at another time. Um, so we want to talk about what makes, uh, what makes a strong proposal you have? Ahh. You have some wisdom around this? Yeah, i think i’ve written about a thousand proposals, and i think i read about ten thousand of them. Oh, ok. Yeah. And it’s amazing how much the same issues keep coming up. So should we presume that your last five hundred that you wrote were stronger than your first five hundred ways there? You used to read them. And what? What? What’s what’s, one of the first things that comes up often, um, one of the first things that comes up there’s actually, three things that really stand out everybody knows i think pretty much the basic, you know, components of a proposal. But though there’s a couple things that i think that people don’t always get and the biggest one i think is it’s very, very often people won’t include a strong mark it analysis or sort of where they fit in the larger field or in an issue area. Um it’s sort of what’s your value proposition, if you will. How how? How is this organization? How is your organization unique? What is your value added? What makes you distinctive? In other words, why should we fund you and not some other organization that you work with? On the flip side of that is how do you compliment other organizations in the field that maybe doing similar work? So it’s both sides of that coin and i it’s very rare that you see that explicitly stated, ok, how do we define the market to prepare the our market analysis? Well, that’s a good that’s a good question, i think that it just depends. I mean, i don’t want, you know you don’t want to get to granular about it. I mean, certainly in the private sector, it’s a little bit clear what your market is, but for example, if i’m talking about i’ll talk about an area i know well, you’ve civic engagement. How do you get young people involved in civic life? It’s, a fairly defined field and people in that field? No, the other organizations, they all go to conferences together, they said the same tables and coalitions. It’s that kind of when i say market, i mean, that loosely defined it’s really looking at who are you working with? Who’s working on these issues and the field and indicating even that, you know, who’s working on these issues in the field, sometimes you’ll read proposals and it’s really amazing how people will come in with a proposal like it’s the first time she’s anybody’s ever thought about doing a particular strategy, and it just shows the program officer right off the bat that you’re not knowledgeable about the field in which you’re working or that you’re presuming the program officer doesn’t know and that you’re you’re what you’re purporting to be a unique idea has actually been seen lots of times from other other other organizations. Yeah, and there i have to say there’s nothing that makes program officers matter for more irritated as when grantmaker say, we are the only organization that does fill in the blank very rarely healthfully one organization that does anything those it’s really presumption list and it’s just it’s a red flag right away. Yeah, okay, well, i know you have a bunch of things that funders hate to see we’ll get we’ll get two more of those. So would you in your proposal, would you just caption this as as a market analysis? It depends. I mean, if sometimes you know as we know and as all grantmaker now this’s, what makes grand seekers annoyed is that every foundation many foundations tend to have very different proposal application guidelines. Some as we know, do come by who do come together and do what’s called a common application like particular states. Some foundations world say here you can fill out the same application for all of us but that’s still relatively rare. Unfortunately. So how you fit that value proposition is going to depend on you know what the thunders asking for, but somewhere in there should be some kind of intimation whether it’s, you know, usually there’s a there’s a section called you know, the qualifications of the organization are the capacity of the organization to carry this out. And, you know you might want to include it in there. You might want included in the summary about your project. I don’t think it takes five pages to say what your value at it is a lot of times. Ah! So really, is it really depends. Okay, all right. But you it belongs it because you said a lot of times this is not included. So this is, well advice to make your make you stand out. Yeah. I mean, i think otherwise see again. And this gets to another thing. People forget sometimes when they write proposals that the program officers usually not the only person that looks at this document and the proposed the program oster has to turn around and sell it to the either the board or the senior. You know, administrative staff for the president, who’s never making the final decision about what gets funded, which is often not the problem. Officer, um, that it’s very helpful for that person to be able to go into those meetings and say right off the bat. This is why this organization that’s really different. And this is why it’s really important that we supported on dh not you know again. But a lot of grand seekers will just not understand that it is a selling job for the program. Officer. Yeah, this goes tio what? You and i said, i think the first time you were on you’re you’re helping your job is to help the program officer sell your proposal and your program to the people you mentioned, whether it’s, the board or a senior program officer who makes but you’re helping them become your sort of sales team in the foundation right there, your advocate, and so give them out. But again, it’s important to remember that about where it stops sometimes, and that gets sort of backing into that jargon and proposals it’s always amazing to me because i’ve done a lot of reading of proposals in evaluating them out as a consultant for other organizations. I’m not particularly steeped in an issue sometimes, and i will get completely stymied by some proposals where there’s all kinds of acronyms that are not spelled out there’s it seems so basic, but it is so easy for organizations to get caught up in their own, um, work and their own spaces that they don’t think about somebody else reading this thing. This is something that i tell people all the time, and i i think it’s so important is that organizations give their proposals or their draft to somebody who knows nothing about their field, who does nothing about their work. You know, if you can find somebody your neighbour, i don’t care who it is, somebody to really eyeball. What you send in is really helpful, because that will tell you whether you’re what you’re writing is compelling on its own, and whether it’s going to sell on its own, regardless of who’s reading it. Ok, there is a bigger world out there, aside from your program and your work. Let’s, go back to something that you just you still touchdown was talking about. How you compliment similar organizations doing similar work. Right? Is that? Is that part of the market analysis? Yeah, i think it is. I think it shows that, you know, once you say, you know where this is, how we’re distinctive, this is, you know, why you need this organization to do this work when you say it also compliments a lot of other work going on the field, it actually sends a message that you’re collaborative because in the nonprofit sector, you know, most of the results that we get are going to come out of the collaborative and collective efforts of a number of organizations, not usually just one. And, you know, there is this ethos of collaboration in the sector is opposed to competition in the private sector, so the more you can say that we are collaborating with these other organizations and here’s how we’re complimenting their work. For example, a local non-profit or state non-profit or coalition might say, you know, we are regional or a local, so we’re able to bring the lessons were learning on the ground to the national groups that are working on this issue may be at the federal level on, and that gives them the national group. Some data, you know, about how things are working on the ground and what we’re seeing so it’s sort of conveys that you’re not only providing value to these other groups that ditch you’re actually intentional about it, okay? And you’re informed and you’re doing this collaborative work. Yeah, and you also have your eye on larger impact and it’s not, you know, we’re just going to keep doing this on our bubble in our little town or state, we’re actually doing something that has that’s that’s looking towards longer term impact, whether it’s policy change at the federal level, whether it’s regulations, whatever you’re doing okay, what else do you recommend to set proposals apart? Well, so another thing that i see a lot is that and every proposal guidelines will ask for this, um, they ask you usually for describe the need for the problem that you’re trying to dress on that your opportunity to say, you know what the problem is and to talk about the statistics in the data that support the need for, you know, for what’s going on, for example, you know, if you’re doing high school dropout trying to stave off dropout rates he would talk about you know, what the rates are and why it’s such an important issue. Um, and then they ask you, you know what you’re going to do about it, which is where you described your program or your project, and when i find sometimes is that a lot of times is that groups tend to fall in one of the categories of their either really good at talking about the issue, talking about the problem, why it’s so important? Um, and great analysis of the causes of it, um, but they’re not so great at saying what they’re going to do about it. On the flip of that is that some organizations will will launch sort of more into the what they’re doing and the work and they’re excellent describing all sort of the elements of their program or when they’re doing, but they don’t really say how it’s addressing the need it’s really important to make that connection and it sounds obvious, but this is where, again, having somebody look at your proposal and we’ll assess it and say, wait, i’m not understanding you just described a huge problem, but i’m not seeing how your program actually, is addressing this really important. Okay, we’re gonna take a take a break. And when we come back, cindy and i will continue talking about what makes your proposals strong. And also mohr, that program officers hate to see you stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. I’m dana ostomel, ceo of deposit, a gift. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. And welcome back, cindy, have we covered all the suggestions that you had for for making a proposal strong before we get teo that the don’ts? Well, i have a couple just a couple quick things, you know, a lot of this overlaps with don’t but that we’ve talked about, but i would say that a lot of proposal writers and grand seekers know that an inevitable question on any guideline application is how are you going to sustain this work, which is what is your fund-raising plan or your business plan and it’s really surprising how many people will say? Well, we’re going to approach corporations and foundations and individual donors, and then they don’t say it in more detail. What do you have a plan for that what’s your strategy? Are you going to focus on one segment more than others? And why is that that’s really important? Another thing that goes along with that is when i worked at a foundation, we actually had a separate section asking about what’s your communications plan. Um and again, ah lot of grant seekers will say, well, we’re going to do some op ends, we’re going todo, you know, we’re going to go on twitter and social media and say, you know what we did if they’re doing, for example, a research study or report that doesn’t really say anything, it doesn’t say what you and what you’re trying to do with the social media coverage is trying to tell people about it, and what impact is that gonna have is going to make any difference? Neither how will you know whether it’s made a difference? And this is the testament, i think all grantmaker zee hate is, you know, the evaluation. How do you know if you have achieved success and again, the answer to that is not well, we’re going to assess our work through ah survey, you know, or we’re going toe ask grant asked participants in our meetings for feedback, you know, all of that is great, but it’s not really telling the investor ah, what difference it made overall, just because people had a great experience at a meeting you put together about a particular issue doesn’t mean that you’ve really had an impact on the problem. Yeah, neither of the three of those whether it’s fund-raising communications or assessment is a plan the way you described it, it’s just it’s sort of aspirational. This is what we plan to do, but but is not a detailed plan. It’s not none of those were a plan. Really? Yeah, i think that’s a good point. And and i would say a plan and then the and the crowd is although that is plan for what, you know, sort of it’s always before what question or to what end? All right, so a couple of things that you said specifically that hyre people reading and program managers officers don’t want to see a cz jargon. And of course, on tony martignetti non-profit radio, we have jargon jail. So we’re very sympathetic with that, um, and also that you’re the only ones doing it. You’re unique. What else? What else did they do? These people hate to see. Ah, well, not answering the questions separately, but it was not a common. I just made that. You know the answers air vague or their elusive, or they ignore them all together. Um, one of the i just did a eh stepped in for a program director who had left a foundation. And so i did a number of proposal. Reviews on site visits and one of the questions that they have on their proposal guidelines, which they’ve just revamped, is what outcomes do you expect to see? Um and i know and i understand why and how non-profits are reluctant to distill what they do down to numbers, but that’s, what the thunder was asking and what i found was that people either talked around the question by describing vaguely what they were going to do their goals, um, or you know what their strategies were, but they weren’t telling me what’s going to come out of this? And can you be very specific about what you’re going to do? Are you going to serve four hundred people, then say that, um, that’s not particular, but that’s i understand that’s not impact, necessarily, but it is an output that can lead to an outcome which might be something like we start four hundred people and people were healthier, you know, that kind of thing, so but but the thunder asked for that specifically, and i was really surprised how many people were confused by that. On the other hand, i did go back to the thunder and say, you know you might wantto put on your website or in the application guidelines somewhere a clear definition of what you want and what’s that what? What you mean by outcome? So that would help grantspace occurs to give you more of what you want, so it works both ways, i think, is a very common that questions get ignored or talked around with explicit questions in applications. Oh, yeah, yeah on i have to say, i’ve been guilty of this myself when i wrote proposals because, you know, that was your first five hundred in the first five hundred days, you know? Well, you wouldn’t get argue that good marketing is sometimes, you know, the best market and goes a little around the truth, but, um, it is true that people i would say less ignore the questions than they do, um, sort of try to talk around them or compensate if they don’t really have an answer by the reiterating something or again talking about larger goals or strategies rather than impact on influence on results. And why you and really making a case for why you you should be invested in running through a lot of what we’re talking about is making these connections, whether it’s between the need and your work or the your work and the outcomes and the impacts. It’s making this yeah, making covering the full spectrum. Yeah. I mean, it’s strategy. It really comes down to are you being strategic? Um, and i know again people hate generally the whole logic model idea. Andi, i understand that, but it is, and it can be really helpful exercise for non-profits to work through because it really separates all these pieces, um, that we’re talking about that then puts them together in a cohesive model and frame. And so doing that exercise in my experience really helps organizations put together stronger. A more cohesive kate. Okay, we have to. We have to wrap up. But the logic model that that sounds like is that that sounds like something that we might talk about in another show. Teacher. The logic model. Yeah. There’s. Lots of resource. Is that out there about that? Go help. They’re still some of the fear that people have about it. Okay, well, we can use that. We can use that. Maybe for next time. Okay. Thanks very much, cindy. Thank you. My pleasure. You’ll find her on twitter at caen, gibbs si n g i b and her practices synthesis consulting, c y en th e s i s next week an archive show i will, i will pick a winner. I don’t know which one it will be, but i will. I will pick a winner and if you have one that you really want to hear again, let me know. You can email me from my sight. Tony martignetti dot com. You can always get me on facebook and twitter. Also, our creative producer is claire meyerhoff lorts our line producer. The show’s social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell. Social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Our music is by scott stein came in a little loud, but that’s because we love scott be with me next week for non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great e-giving didn’t think dick tooting getting thinking thing. You’re listening to the talking alternate network. Get in. Duitz e-giving cubine. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. 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M on talking alternative dot com duitz you’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com, now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s, monte, m o nt y monty taylor. Dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Talking all calm. Hyre