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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d grow a blepharoplasty aroma if i opened my eyes to see that you missed today’s show your messaging campaigns. We’re on our phones all day messaging is there, too, in multiple forms how do you exploit messaging as a marketing channel? Michael sabat with that message shows you the way are you cheating at social buy-in likes buying followers buy-in emails, buying ads buy-in content are those cheating in the social networks to the cheaters? Win our social media contributor and the ceo of inten shepherds you she’s amy sample ward tony steak too. You got us out of sixty nine, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing to radio by wagner cpas guiding you beyond the numbers with your cps dot com and tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us i’m very glad to welcome michael sabat to the show. He has worked in the messaging space for a decade, he started working with sms campaigns in two thousand eight at mobile commons, he was there first account manager and helped hundreds of organizations launch thousands of sms campaigns. Recently, he started at message, a platform that helps digital directors and digital marketers use facebook messenger for marketing and communications outcomes. He hosts a podcast called the chat bubble about messaging he’s at message at msg and that at message dot com, you’ll find his podcast at the chat bubble dot com he’s michael sabat welcome to the show, michael. Hey, tony, thanks for having me. My pleasure. Um let’s. See, first i got i got, uh i didn’t think to admonish. And i got to mention having your company name start with the at sign it’s a little it’s. A little tough. When when i’m introducing you, you’re at message at ssg and at at message dot com. You comfortable people get that? Okay, totally tricky. But everybody asked me to repeat it. And so it really sinks into there wherever you store memories in your brain. Yeah. So at symbol msg is our logo and that’s the name of the company and the domain is a t m s. G so really tricky for domains really tricky for twitter, but it’s been working so far, okay? I mean, you know, you went into this consciously. I know that i i, um okay, i i didn’t let’s move on. Okay? Everybody knows that the only other thing humane is at mrs dot. Com that’s. Important? Yeah. Good. Yeah. The big push for our company is yeah, we’re sort of moving beyond web pages. Right? And so i’m sort of okay if the girls are a little tricky because we’re saying messaging is the new space no longer the page, but but we’ll get into that. Uh, well, let’s, get to that right now. Okay. Were you, uh, you’re a futurist. We’re moving beyond websites. I’m absolutely a futurist. Okay? Yeah. You know, i major push the major thesis behind at message. Is that the web page which is made up of access times? Why? Right space it’s a page like a piece of paper. What the web has been for the last twenty five years. But as we move everybody being on their phone, you lose that x times. Why? So we go from these incredible twenty seven inch max. Where they’re designing web pages and landscape views. And when people are viewing those, they’re viewing it on a four point nine or a five point five inch phone. And so you actually lose the essence of what is a page, and we are literally squeezing pages onto the phone, okay? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so i’m happy to start here, so but what about, you know, when pages that are now ubiquitous mobile optimized? Aren’t we getting the best? I guess you would say we get the best we can, but it’s not mobile native, is that it? Yeah. I mean, i was joking somebody yesterday and i said that the mobile optimized web page is the horseless carriage of our century. Meaning yes, you can, like squeeze it and you can’t force it by mobile optimized courses than any digital marketer out there will tell you that there mobile page that they’ve made responsive and mobile optimized one hundred times is still converting visitors at one third toe one half a cz well as the desktop version of that same exact page and that’s the high end. So it is just harder to convert somebody whether it’s an e mail acquisition a petition for a donation on a mobile web page. Interesting. Okay, i did introduce us a futurist. I’m glad. You know, i’m glad you self identify as a futurist because i didn’t i didn’t include that. Um okay, let’s. All right. We’re going to come back to this, then. Let’s, let’s, start with fresh out this little x y what do you mean, the x y space? Yeah, just like a graph. Right? When you look at a tv or a computer screen, you are looking at two dimensional space, right? Access times. Why access? And that gives you the size of the page, the number of pixels. And so when your pages, you’re building it for basically probably a math book, laptop, right, and those dimensions. And so you have these nice landscape pictures in all of this is in vogue, right? If you look at a modern website, you have the hero image and you know, you’re scrolling and it’s beautiful as you’re scrolling, you don’t do any of that stuff on the phone like the action’s on the phone is a different type of squirrel, right? It’s happening with your finger on and swiping. And messaging are the key actions on the phone and but specifically back to the space you have, you know, however, many pixels on the laptop and that’s where you’re designing pages for and then you have many, many less pixels on the phone, you just lose the page you literally, like, lose seventy percent of what you’ve built, and you have to squeeze it into the phone. And so of course, it’s not going to perform is well when you’re losing seventy percent of what you built, literally the coordinates, the extends life space and your belief is that supplanting that is the is mobile phone native messaging. Yeah, exactly. You know, i think that the the channels that have worked in the desktop era which we are leaving and going into the mobile era, right, the new device, the new mobile devices primary for personal, not necessarily forward, but for personal you’re using your phone for more things now and yes, of the channels that worked in the desktop era. Specifically, email and pages do not work as well in the mobile era and their staff out the right people behave differently when they open your email on their phone and it’s. Not better than when they open your email on their desktop. People behave differently when they arrive at your website on their phone and it’s worse than when they arrived in the best up. And so, as we move forward, not only would like more phones, but whatever comes next in virtual reality or wherever that new device news space is. Paige is an email i think are going to move into the background on messaging will be the channel that becomes more primary. A cz we move mohr mobile and whatever comes next. Okay, that is perfect. We have take our first break. That’s. A perfect sort of tease, tio. What will pick up messaging becoming? Ah, primary channel. I gotta take this break. Michael, pursuing their newest paper is demystifying the donor journey. Here is a romp through the table of contents. Where you taking your donor’s? Three common stewardship stumbling blocks consider the ideal donor experience. Immersive digital experiences making the donor experience a top priority. Next steps. You get this paper, you know, pursuant their data, rich and it’s going to be based on their research, helping you in your stewardship, it’s. Demystifying the donor journey it’s at tony dot m a slash pursuant radio. Now, let’s, go back to michael and your message in campaigns. Okay, sort of consistent let’s pick up where we were. Messaging is going to become the primary channel, is it? Is it already sort of that’s? Another interesting angle on this similar topic is it is already your primary channel. Yeah, personal communication, because we’re on our fund-raising gle day. Yeah, i mean, look, if when i need to tell my wife something or my parents or my friends, i don’t send them an e mail, and i usually don’t call although that’s also on the phone, but messaging is the way you do that, and so we see this, like, break where when you’re at work, you’re on your computer, you’re doing emails, you’re writing email, blast and all of that. When you’re doing something personal, you’re doing it via messaging and or on your phone, and so when you start to take this to howl, non-profit should be thinking about this four people let’s say, for an animal, you know, writes animal welfare non-profit sure, like when people become a supporter of this organization. It’s your work if you work at the non-profit to get people to be supporters and email makes sense. But do you want the people supporting the organization, or do people that support the organization do it because it’s personal to them and the answer is yes, right? Like people donate people get involved, people volunteer people share because they personally care about whatever issue the non-profits focused on and so it’s just a line’s better if you are now talking to something, talking to people on their personal channel when it’s an issue that’s personal to them, okay, i don’t think non-profits are are thinking this way using messaging assed communication channel as a campaign channel. For the most part, i mean, i know you do it, you do a lot of campaigns. I’m not saying it’s nowhere, but, um, we’re trying to shift some thinking here. Um, what how do you how do you characterize messaging the campaign? What are the elements of it that that make it our next primary channel? Yeah, so so kind of the nuts and bolts are that it is ubiquitous, so their arm or monthly active users off the top for messaging app. Then there are monthly active users of the email in the world. Okay, what are the top floor? I don’t know. Hold on. Name the name the top for messaging aps a man putting me on the spot facebook messenger, whatsapp we chat and probably line or kick. Okay, i guess maybe i message although i don’t think they’re coming i message in that stat that’s another okay, okay. I’m not, you know your stuff. I’ll tap your head. You know your way. Gotta shift. We got shit thinking. Okay, so more you call them monthly active users. This is how you’re measuring this is your measure. Well, these air just saying, like, look, the channel is here it’s not, you know, if you were starting your email list in two thousand, you would look at the numbers and you would say, like, you know, there’s many less people emailing than are answering their phone or that are receiving mail. But we’re already at a place where messaging is extremely ubiquitous, the people have arrived on this channel already? Yeah, so yes, it’s new but we don’t have to wait for everybody to show up. We just have to find the right use cases. Okay, now i made you diverge, but we’ll get back to it. So you were you were comparing the, uh the the monthly active users among the four top messaging apse with other communications channel. So please go ahead. Yeah, so? So messaging is kind of the biggest sort of like communication channel out there. It’s also the newest, with the other channels being things like email and phone calls and direct mail. But, you know, talking about the nuts and bolts of the channel messaging messages generally get to people very quickly. We can tell with facebook messenger at least, you know, if people open if people read their messages and the defining characteristic of messaging is that people will respond to it like, literally respond to it and that’s new, indifferent, because when an organization sends out an email, people might clear khun taken action on a web forum. But no one ever responds to an email blast like that. It just doesn’t even make sense, so with this defining characteristic of people opening the messages, people reading them quickly quickly and responding that opens messaging up to address used cases, his existing use cases in a different way for organization. I see this in my personal experience, which is why i wanted to bring this tio our listeners, you know, you’re right. My friends send me more text messages now than they did a year ago. Is it used to be maurey male, based across friends, arranging dinners, whatever on dh. Now there’s more text messages and you respond quickly to a text, then you due to an e mail, which makes me think, is there going to be another? I’m not i don’t want to kill your killers, but what is gonna be another more mohr? Um, hyre hyre responsive radio channel? Yeah, it’s gonna be another one after texting? Oh, absolutely right for sure. We’ve had mail now. Direct mail for a few thousand years. Maybe we have a phone call since harada two years. We’ve had email now for twenty five years and we’ve had messaging for, you know, about ten years that will absolutely because of something coming next, but i think that will kind of push maybe direct mail out, not messaging. Okay, okay. Um, yeah, this is all of this is all very eventually. All right. So if we wanted, if we’re in a small midsize non-profit now, let’s, bring it down to getting more practical. What? What purposes might we in engaged? Messaging teo accomplish for us? What goals? Yeah, so? So, first off, there are a few different messaging channels, the two available to non-profits right now, our sms and then facebook messenger. And they’re slightly different, but similar. Okay, sametz we got a defined term because i’ll put you in jog in jail if you don’t sms that’s. Just simple that’s, right, shorts? There was a safe. A short message, something short messaging service. Thank you. Okay, so, that’s, just your right. That’s your day to day text message. Okay, sms. Remember, be careful. Jog in jail. But it had to slap you in there. Okay, go ahead. Cool. I didn’t. I thought that got out of the jargon jail last year, but i got it. I got to check the calendar again. Eso text messaging. And then, you know, the other channel messaging channel available to non-profits or or anybody to build upon his facebook messenger. And so that is a messaging app that can go on any phone and instead of the technical terms are not relevant. But instead of it going through the carrier, it goes over the internet, okay? And so facebook now, anybody that has facebook messenger on their phone, you can essentially send them a text message, you know, phone to phone over the internet. Okay? And what? White folk, eh? So those those air to most popular tools available to non-profit what might we use this for? What? What? What kind of campaign might we create? Go ahead, get number one use case is acquisition new donors getting new donors, getting new or volunteers or maybe not volunteermatch not donors, but llewelyn, new constituents. Okay. And data. What kind of what kind of data could we hit? What kind of data can we collect through this? Any data the person responds to, similar to a web form, so you can ask the user to respond with their email address or their phone number. You know, if you’re not using sms or their address or any data you want to collect that person will respond to and the response rates over messaging are incredibly high generally like this is a big range, but generally from anywhere between forty percent and eighty percent of the people that start a conversation you asked them for their email will respond with that email address. Okay, um right, who would you be? Okay, so if this is an acquisition campaign, how would you acquire the i don’t know what you need for facebook messages are user i ds or text for sms durney phone numbers. How would you how would you acquire the people toe to send your messaging, too? Yes. So people are always going to message in first, just like people will go to a girl for first before you can ask them for their email in a web form. People are always going to message in first, and this is key distinction between sms and facebook messenger with sms. It works really well to incorporate into media. So aura on event so you stand up on stage and you say, take out your phone and for example, donate to the red cross text haiti to nine o nine, nine, nine and you connect from media from ah, like real world call to action anywhere you could say. Take out your phone type in this number and send us a message that’s how sms works. Okay, look, facebook messenger. We can come back, but with facebook messenger, you can link into the conversations and that’s the distinction. So from an ad from a facebook ad, you treyz goodcompany into a conversation instead of a landing page. Or you could link somebody from any link on the web into a conversation instead of landing base. Okay, so you can from facebook messenger. All right, all right. Um, so you get you have to you’re asking however you’re doing it on the sms side. You’re asking someone to text you first. Yeah, right. Whether it’s in an event or a printed piece or whatever you’re asking for them to take the action first. Is that right, it’s always the case for anything. A messenger you’re saying, click here. So go here to messaging or message us at this number. Okay. Okay. All right. So that was for acquisition. What? What other goals might we have for our our new messaging campaign? Yes. Number one acquisition. And collecting data and data. Yes, number two is direct engagement, so messaging lends itself to kaleb lee and easily be able to open up one on one chats with people. So someone messages in, and i can tell you my theory to this, although other vendors and other systems might have different theories. But someone messages in and we kind of automata scrip. So someone messages in and we say thanks for messaging us. Tell us your email and then tell us your zip code and tell us how much you want to donate. And as people are responding to our messages with their email and there’s a code, we’re saving it just like a web form. But with us, if someone goes off script, so we say, how much do you want to donate? And this happens all the time. How much do you want to donate? And someone responds, i don’t want to donate online where can i mail a check? Or i want to call and talk to somebody. What number did i call when someone responds off script? So we’re looking for that dollar amount and they reply with a question yes, we gonna pull that into another part of the system. And and someone can respond one on one and open a one on one chat with that person. And so the second case here is being able to engage directly in a two way conversation. A cz part of this sort of marketing funnel part of the data collection process. So, so implicit and all this is there’s a there’s a back end that is ah, script back and forth that that is, that is automated. Until some i understand, until somebody goes off script and then they get funneled a different direction. But but if there’s a back end to this that’s all automated carrying on carrying on the conversation with the the new constituent yeah. That’s what any of the tools do? Yes. You sort of need that to be ableto scale it more than just a few people live conversation. Okay. Tool automated conversation. Ok, so there are tools. They’re too old to do that. There are. Okay. Um, what are some of those tools? Can we going name a couple yet? Yes. A great. So, you know, i’m my company of that message. We oughta make these conversations over. Facebook messenger there go. My former company is mobile commons and they automate conversations over sms and they’ve been acquired and they work with a bunch of brands now meeting a bunch of venders all under the kind of software brand there there, there’s some agencies that help people do this. And so one agency would be revolution messaging maurine the strictly political space, but they helped design the campaign, and then one of the newer vendors on the scene works a little differently, but they’re called hustle or relay or ground game. All of these platforms open up peer-to-peer messaging overact, sametz and that’s less automated that’s, a hybrid between automated conversations and one on one conversations and the quick version. There are whole podcast all by themselves, but the quick version is that you need an operator with a peer-to-peer so you need someone to actually send those messages, but they’re software leading that operator through the conversation, depending on how the organisation set it up. Now why your company have you chosen to do facebook messaging and not sms? Yeah, so you know the first one first, one twenty minutes in first work first decent question, alright. I’m learning i’m learning. I’m trained above. Definitely every question i know toe like every good question. There you go. So you just like scripted. I see you like a nice ex scripted. No matter what my question was going to be, you’re going to see a good question. All right? You think this is a live person does? All right. All right. I’ll catch you up. I’ll trip you up. All right, now i’m now i’m on a mission now. I don’t do that to guest. I do it to my wife, but not my guest. Go ahead. Why has a wife facebook messenger and not sms for at message your company. So the way i see it is we are lift no, michael sabat my goal. Sam hello, there we are. Ok, you’re back. We’re ok. Yeah, you cut out so start you start your own channel. So sms had been the on ly messaging channel for the last decade. Yes, but within the last two years, it’s clear that there are going to be a whole bunch of new messaging aps opening up facebook messenger, whatsapp message. All of these are opening up so that organizations can use them, and i think we’ll look back in five years and we’ll say, like, oh, sms was the first messaging channel the same way that hotmail was the first email service, but now it’s become its own category and messaging channels will differ, but they’ll all have their basic best practices the same way that email differs. Whether you’re sending to a well or gmail, maybe, but but they all have their own, like email best practices, and so i wanted to build on and kind of the new stuff coming because it is the most exciting. All right? Um, now what about age? I have not? I’m an outlier, i presume. Based on our conversation, i have not downloaded the facebook messenger app, do we my representative of people fifty five and over? Or am i an outlier even in my age? And you don’t have to worry about age if you want to do ah messaging campaign? Yes, a messaging is actually weird. It what with text messaging? We’re kind of the point where everybody has it, right? If you have a phone? Yes, sure, really, really ubiquitous, both young and old facebook messenger does not do that well with young kids. So you know, up to the age of twenty but what’s surprising is while you’re at work, you’re emailing, right. So while you’re working age, you really are in the email. But as you retire, you stop emailing and you do mohr messaging, whether it’s with the grandkids or whoever, you’re just not going to your desktop computer on your desk every day or your laptop and so messaging it’s pretty ubiquitous, no matter what age group. But we definitely see a bump again. Maur messaging, happy eating with people in their sixties, interesting and my voice is broke like i’m fourteen, but but peter, right, yeah, what did you say? Peter brady, peter brady and i was like, greg, i kind of liked greg, but i guess he was. I was too old for his voice to crack. Well, i am two, fifty. What am i now? Fifty, fifty five, fifty six, fifty six. Okay. That’s. Very interesting about retirement. Yeah, mohr messaging less, uh, less email, right? But you’re spending less time on your desktop, but the phone is always on your belt or in your pocket. All right? We just have, like, a minute and a half left. Michael, maybe should make this a full hour, but i’m certainly not gonna squeeze out amy sample ward. Maybe we have you back and continue this, but men and a half left. What do you what do you want to leave people with? Please? Yes. So i say the last use cases, the big cases acquisition. Right. So collecting data from people over these message and channels direct engagement and then the last one of the activation. So as people are messaging in, they are subscribing similar to when someone gives you their email there subscribing and seeking then follow up on this channel where the person has already engaged and tell them news alerts. Tell them about events. Get them to take action. Stuff like that that’s the big connect sustaining pay off as and in terms of, like, building this list. Okay, um that’s it. I’m super excited to be opening for amy sample ward. I mean, this is going to be a huge episode, she’s, she’s, you know, she’s amazing gas. So congrats on that. I’m excited to be part of it. Oh, she’s, awesome! Yeah, she’s, she’s on every month. Yes. Are you going to the non-profit technology conference? Now i put you on this. Will. You are. I’ll see you there. We’re gonna have a booth. Look for us in booth three. Now, provoc radio’s going to their booth. Number three. Oh five. Great. Okay, michael sabat, orleans, right. Uh, i hope so. I’m going to new orleans. I hope you are too that’s, where the conference is, okay, don’t go to washington. Michael sabat. You’ll find him at s s g, and the company is a tms sg dot com. Michael, thank you so much. Thank you. Needs a break. That is for wagner. Cps. They go beyond the numbers, and i suggest you go beyond the numbers with them by talking to you. Eat each tomb. Who’s. Been on the show twice. Very smart guy. Very nice guy. Low pressure. But check out the website first. You know, check out the bona fide. These make sure that you’re satisfied. You know, you look the clients, etcetera. They do the work you need. I mean there’s. Cps forgot. Take everybody knows what you do. But, you know, you gotta satisfy yourself. Then pick up the phone and talk to you. Eat weinger cpas. Dot com. They go beyond the numbers. Now, time for tony’s. Take two and i need to thank you for pulling us out of sixty nine, sixty nine itunes ratings. Now, i don’t check these things very often. Any sample ward taught me? I really did learns from her that you know, that’s. A vanity metric. How many readings you have fans, etcetera. But i do look from time to time not not gonna lie your butt like every couple months. And for a long time, i may have it was every six months. Or maybe even a year. It was a long time you were at sixty nine readings, and i didn’t say anything about it. I never said please, somebody get us out of sixty nine. I did not plead. I did not make an issue of it. But then i went back a few weeks ago and i see that we got seventy five ratings. So my thanks to the people who pulled us. The six people, six listeners who pulled us out of sixty nine. I guess the one pulled us out of sixty nine, and then the others piled on. But i’m grateful to all six because that’s what i saw, i saw it go from sixty nine, seventy five. So thank you to those listeners who yanked us out of sixty nine. And, of course, there’s a video on this entire subject on you will find that at tony martignetti dot com i shouted from my gym, so i’m i’m pumped up as as a pumped up is that could be it’s, actually, probably more like a a limp linguine. Oh, you know what language? No, his right lung guerrino is a single strand of linguini. So if you’re not too hungry, you know? Just order a linguine o and you’ll get one piece of linguini or a spaghetti o or rigatoni. No, you’ll just get one, you know, little sample sample size. Um, but if you’re hungry, you know, then get the whole plate order linguini or spaghetti, etcetera. So the video was that tony martignetti dot com and that is tony’s take two now we got to live. Listen, love and there’s a time we got let’s start abroad. Uh, osaka, japan live listen love to you, connie chua, mexico city, mexico witnessed artois, russia we can’t see the city, but we know that you’re there russia live with their love to you ottawa, canada bolivia abila iraq live listen loved all those foreign listeners on duff there’s more foreign listeners in germany gooden tug, france born i won’t know that’s bonem sabat now that wouldn’t be any good france live listen love to you tokyo is also with us in japan as well as osaka and rio de janeiro, brazil, brazil, one of wonderful that would be oh my god! Oh, opening gadot’s for brazil and bringing it domestic tampa, florida let’s see where else? Portland, oregon about that’s amy simple word, brooklyn, new york welcome, brooklyn multiple new york, new york voice cracked again new bern, north carolina welcome back, haven’t seen you for some time. New bern where’s, new brunswick where’s that was that new brunswick, north, north brunswick, new jersey was annoying me. They would never identify themselves, but they were ubiquitous. New bern, north carolina welcome back live listener love to you kayman sample ward. You know who she is, but i have to give it a proper introduction anyway. She’s, our social media contributor and ceo of intend the non-profit technology network, her most recent court that book, so to change any time everywhere about online multi-channel engagement, you’ll find her at amy, sample, ward, dot or ge and she’s at amy rs ward and antennas on ten is and tn dot or ge so many places you could find. Amy simple word welcome back. Thank you. You’re ubiquitous talk about messaging being ubiquitous, you’re ubiquitous. You are ok. Good to talk to you. Good to chat with you. How are you? Yeah, i’m doing pretty good where i think they’re really busy over here, you know, wednesday was the regular registration deadline before prices went up. So for the non-profit technology for the non-profits don’t come, you know so many books hundreds of folks registered just on wednesday, for example, the last man that busy time in the conferences oh, my gosh, it’s going to be here so soon? We’ve got shiping deadlines and print deadlines and everything else over here. I understand now that the hashtag of course is eighteen ntc no, how many people do expect toe? Eighteen, ninety? Si what do you think, it’s? Gonna look so pretty consistent with the last handful of years? Two thousand people all in one big room two thousand awesome. Yeah, i’ve decided non-profit radio was going to be there. We’re going to do right? I’m glad that you have decided that. Yes, usually we keep our business separate, but, you know, i’m melding today because i’m excited that it’s gonna work out. Okay. I am so let andrea and ellie no. Booth three. Oh, five. Um, i wanted i want two, three or five and not your name on it. Thank you. So non-profit metoo is gonna have your name on it when we get there. And the decorators it’s not there now, right? Well, i don’t expect, you know, six weeks in advance. I’m only you know, i can’t afford the furnishings for a couple days, so don’t don’t get you know, the furnishings, irv. Ok, anyway, yes, non-profit there’s going to be there? We’re going to do tons of interviews of of conference speakers and it’s going to be a wonderful day here, and you’re gonna have a hard, ah hard choice because, you know, you may have seen that we have the most breakout sessions this year than than we’ve ever had there’s over one hundred thirty sessions this year. Andi also means we have the most speakers because, as you know, one of our kind of guidelines and values is that people don’t have solo sessions because there’s way too much experience far too many organizations trying to do all of this work that only one person to have an opinion on something isn’t very representative of the community so way. Have over three hundred. Oh, i thought it was too. I thought i saw one hundred thirty sessions in two hundred speakers. No, three hundred, no, three hundred speakers. All right, well, i’ll have. To choose yes, we were selective hearing not provoc radio, but we’ll we’ll choose from one hundred thirty topics and, uh, you know, we’ll bring enough mikes we could share, too. I did one ntcdinosaur with five that we do find no four because i bribed three guest mikes and one person was standing. So two people shared a mike. It works, it works. We could do five or six. Yeah. Yeah, well, you probably don’t. You don’t have six person panels. I don’t thinkyou goes six, but no five. You could do force and five so we could do that. So yes, non-profit latto is going to be at ntc in new orleans. I hope michael sabat shows up in the right city. He wasn’t she didn’t seem too sure about where you’re going to be a friend, an extra postcards kruckel fremery knows where you’re going. Do you know michael before listening to him today? Do you know him well? I was trying to think about if we’ve been in the same place at the same time, because normally i say that i only know someone in five, like met them in person and all of that because otherwise, we know everybody because every, you know, where we’re all online, but i couldn’t remember if we actually have been in the same place at the same time, together or not. Okay, okay, well, you’ll meet with ntcdinosaur he’ll be there exactly let’s carry on to our topic cheating, cheating are cheating. So phrase gaming, i’m still against it and we can talk about that. But i’m cheating. It just sounds so bad. Well, i don’t know. We’re keeping in the social media context. I didn’t think i didn’t think gaming. I know you suggested gaming. Yeah, i went with cheating. Um in-kind left on it. Let’s admit to cheating. Alright, thank you very much. Oh, down that path. All right. So, um, let’s share your experience, your your wisdom and your opinion. Really on on buying stuff, buying everything from blogged content of youtube views. What does anymore think, amy simple would think about that? I’ve lost a toss about it on dh there. Probably not too sure you have ever mean you as you, tony, but you as everyone else is listening, ever listened into a conversation tony and i had. They’re probably not going to surprise. You what my feelings are, you know, i think we have to go back and i can already see the face that you’re making tony when i say this thing, that i probably say every single conversation that we have, which is we have to go back to our goals if your goal is to get people to go back to, you know what you were talking about the first half hour, if your goal is to get people teo, opt in, jump into a conversation and actually sign up for something or donate or add their names to your advocacy call, you know, whatever that is, buying random people probably bought is not going to get you closer, right? So if you’re just buying it for the number, hey, i would argue you have a really horrible goal weight. You should not be that list of life, their followers or whatever shouldn’t be your goal anyway on if you are just trying to fill, let me think about i often do this as a way of really kind of checking myself if i’m if i’m okay on the right things or i’m not focused on the right things and that is to turn your situation that you’re thinking about strategizing, whether this is buying facebook fans or twitter followers or instagram, polish, whatever, turn that into a in person scenario and check your same logic. So if we were in a room together, we were at the ntc right on, and our goal is to put on this awesome conference and have lots of content and have people engaging in making connections. But instead of focusing on that, we said, we want tohave three thousand people at the conference this year, right instead of always two thousand. So where does goingto go to the city of new orleans and say, we’re going to pay, you know, fifteen dollars an hour? Wait because this is our going. We’re gonna fill this commission’s, right? Because that’s our goal right way, a thousand people that are really there that are part of our community would say, who are all these people that i keep talking to you in the hallway that have no interest in what i’m doing that have nothing to do with non-profit work-life we then also create i’m going to save damage because well defined that and whatever different. Context is for the people who earnestly wanted to be part of our work, right? So focusing on that on that filling the filling, that big convention center focusing on that actually has maybe created more damage than had. We just had a smaller event on dso when i put it into a real world scenario, i think it’s so helpful because when we think about riel, world scenarios were much more likely to think about those people is people versus those people as followers or profile pictures or phone numbers, right when we’re when we’re focused on lee on the technology as this interchange in this transaction place, if we let ourselves kind of let go of the fact that these are committee members and they’re our friends and there are supporters, and i think using that real world scenario helps you remember, okay, if this is a room full of our people at our annual event, we would never do this. So why would we do it online now? The facebook the facebook facebook has changed. Facebook has changed its algorithm for for because it’s a new day yeah, right. Yes, bond, i’m hearing it. All right, companies. And non-profits or having trouble getting their content before there constituents there, their fans, the people was like their page in favor of in favor of family, family and friends stuff. Um, now i think it is i don’t think i’m being cynical saying that so that now companies and non-profits and organizations generally have toe pay for right for more outreach, brother reach no, you’re not being okay that’s that tried and true practice, right? Give people things for free so that they come to rely on them and feel they need them and then say, actually, you can’t have it for free anymore, but will you pay this amount? And people feel like they don’t have a choice, they have to pay it way don’t non-profits largely, any organization business on facebook has had lots of thing for free, you know? They got to have content that people could see in their new speed, and they could connect with folks and send messages and, you know, previously have much more, um, kind of dynamic options around events and messages and groups and all the rest and slowly all of that has been taken away, and i think at this point organisations really feel like, well, we have been used to getting to message. You’re having are. Our message is rather show up in the news feet of of our fans. So i guess now we do have to promote our posts, or even further than that, have facebook ads. And i think less about using facebook, then as a place where you are like you would with a promoted post, just trying to get your content scene and engaged with. And now that you’re using it, like big companies, to drive traffic to your website or into a facebook messenger, you know, a conversation or whatever it might be. Big, heavy sigh uh, listen, i mean, it’s kind of sad and frustrating his leg’s definitely, i think it’s a real challenge for organizations, teo feel like they are confident enough with there could management of the tool before you even think about how much time it takes. I mean, if you were to go to affirm that all that they do as they’re agency is, like a manage facebook ads and social media management for for clients, a you pay them a ton of money and they have a lot of expertise they’ve been doing this is all that they live and breathe, and it still takes them hours and hours, right? Like the idea that a small non-profit who already struggled to have the time to even log in to facebook one today, you know, and like, engage or like or reply to comments that now they’re they’re having to log in and then say, okay, well, hattaway, create an ad. How is that different than promoting this post? Because both of them are taking my credit card number? Like i said it’s, just so so disappointing that feels like it, it has established itself as this keep mathos massively, a hugely popular platform for people as individuals communicating with each other, and that should be a place where non-profits go to talk to people, right? I’m yet there are just so many, so many burdens or barriers to doing that. I know we got to take a break, stay with us, tell us credit card and payment processing. You know them. This is where you get the long tail of passive revenue because they are credit card processors. So you go to tony dot mm slash tony. Tell us you watch the video. It will explain the process of business is moving their credit card processing to tell us, and you will get fifty percent of everything tell us earns on all those transactions long revenue stream. Tony dahna i’m a slash tony. Tell us. Okay, any sample word, let’s? Keep talking about. Well, we brought in a little beyond cheating, but i, uh okay. So yes, facebook drew us in and drew non-profits in wave with e-giving they had e-giving for god’s sake on now, there. Now, now you gotta pay to get all this. All right, but but buying facebook likes is not the answer. No, it’s not going to be the answer, because buying the likes whether you’re buying likes on your content or buy-in likes just unto your page, write a cz followers it’s still going to set you up for a really bad roo i calculation from then on, right? Like if you’re now carrying one hundred extra fans that have no real intention in engaging with you are becoming part of your mission or donating to you every time you put a post out there, you’re getting even a smaller percentage, right? Because now you just artificially inflated all those numbers. Yeah, yeah, okay, good, but we’ve taken that off the table that that is not the way you go that way. Um, we’ll spend your few dollars on buy-in followers and fans used that money, even though, and this is what this i’ll i’ll make my case for it now, tony, the reason that i had said this was a conversation about gaming, social media, not cheating, is that just what we’re saying about facebook that you do have to play that game a bit on dh like i’m saying, don’t use your money on buying more, more followers instead. Used that money to say, you know, once a week we’re going to spend two dollars or five dollars, and we’re goingto busta post and get it more visibility, and that way it is content that you already have it’s maybe a post you already put up like if it was intend this week, maybe it’s a post specific toe reminder wednesday’s the registration deadline before the rate increases so it’s something that’s important is already something that you’re going to post on the page and then just put a couple of those dollars behind, boosting that more instead of putting your money somewhere else. What about the thinking that if we have a lot of let’s, shift over to twitter? If we have a lot of twitter followers, then people will think we’re popular and more people will join us organically. So if we buy ten thousand or twenty thousand twitter followers, which you’re right from a little i know about this, they’re probably fake. They’re either stolen and fake identity accounts or their bots, but if we have a big number than people will say, whoa, they have a big number about and then organically it’ll it’ll grow. Is that that flawed logic? And if so, why? I really think that it is flawed logic. So two, two versions, one in person, you know, if it was me and i had a million followers on twitter, for example, you’re going toe, you’re going to question that number, and if you first you’re going to say, okay, is that? Do i follow five people? You know, like it’s? Because it is obvious that this person is just, you know, buying all these followers because they don’t follow anyone? They’re not actually engaging with people. You’d also investigated by looking at the content just because i have a lot of followers, if i post, you know, once a month with, like a retweet of something what’s the point of following me anyway, right? There is no there’s, no content there there’s no value there. So even if i didn’t have a million followers and i was regularly engaging with people and i followed a ton of people and, you know, very similar number followed back that’s showing actually ah lot stronger truck between whoever that individual is and the people that they engage with them just see a billboard type. Profile right? Like you’re just an ad, right? Like lots of people are just there, but if it’s an organization similar, if you if you are truly an organization that should have a million followers, then you are an organization who should be putting out great content every day that you have profile that has, you know, your logo and information about whatever campaign you’re running or what your mission is has clear links over to your website that has similar branding and and tone and feel, you know, that there’s clearly a strong presence there if instead you’re an organization that shows that you have a million followers you again, you yourself follow five and your profile is very basic. You do not have strong called action and your messages you’re not regularly, you know, posting there, it doesn’t matter how many followers you have no one’s going to, really you don’t want to buy into that. That organization. In my intro, i linked, i grouped together buying views fans likes and also buying content. What about? You know, if we’re if we’re a small organization, we don’t have the wherewithal toe keep our keep facebook fresh or ur own even our own sight. Our own blogged fresh. What do you think about buying content? I guess occasionally. Or no, if you don’t like it, so i know i don’t like it, okay, but i want it cut the mic, right cover my kapin mike doesn’t like it, you know, if i can. Okay, so i think that there is, uh, certainly ah, path a reality in which money is exchanged for content on your website or your probably more. So, you know, on your block, like you’re saying versus on social, but in that situation is not that you are just buying content, but that instead you have say, uh, your education organization you focused on, kate told education, and you recruit twelve or twenty four say teachers in your service area to write something for you and that way you have to post a month. I’m just making this up, obviously, and you want to give them, you know, one hundred fifty dollars, check as a thank you for all of the time and sharing their expertise, and now they have one hundred fifty dollars to use in their classroom or whatever they want to do. So i think that kind of scenario where you are essentially providing honorariums for your community members, contributing to your content definitely makes them, but i wouldn’t ever consider that buying condoms. Mom, is that clear? What i’m saying there? Yeah, yeah, you’re you’re not you’re not out first of all, it’s it’s relevant because it’s coming from a community member and yeah, zim one you know, and they’re contributing content. So, you know, it’s it’s an honorarium? Yeah, exactly, and i think the other opportunity and again, i don’t think that money would necessarily be exchanged in this scenario, but four organizations, i don’t think that you should feel bad if you feel like, oh my gosh, we we don’t have time or we don’t we don’t feel like we have a lot to say to create all that content that is a huge place where i think partnerships are really important. I don’t know how much i’ve talked about it on the show over the years, but if anyone listening has been in any of my workshops around content planning, i always advocate that in your content plan, you include notes about if any of your funders have ah, blawg or social media profiles, if any of your coalition partners or project partners, if any of those people have outlets, and if they do, you should follow those because oftentimes they mean, you only had five minutes today while you were eating lunch while you were also, you know, listening to this radio show toe log in tow twitter and so long as you had all those folks there, maybe what you do today is just read retweet, you know, amplifies some of that content you don’t need to come up with it on your own, but, you know, it’s mission aligned, you know, that it’s relevant because they’re part of your kind of network of work. Andi, i think that’s a really important thing to keep in mind so that you don’t feel the pressure that you always have to write new articles every day. It may mean, hey, the five other organizations we work with are posting this. We’re going to repost it just like two other organizations are right in leverage, kind of how best would think about it. Is that network effect right? You have? Yes, you that’s beth cancer she’s dropping names. That’s, she’s referring to beth cantor? Yes, you have said that on the show and yeah, you’re you’re curating, you’re curating. Others content and and then? And then i probably learned this from you. Do you know they appreciate that, and they’re likely to share your content makes it more likely that their shells there show they’ll share your content and, you know, it’s a which also metoo we just have a minute left really manically last words or fans or whoever will come to you because maybe they already follow that partner or that thunder, and because you created a good relationship and sharing content between the two of you, you’re helping expose your content to all of their fans. Indeed, indeed. I know that from the non-profit media experience followers come when we share. We share good content from other people. Um, we gotta leave it there. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. In anywhere, stu. In april, we’re gonna get you for an interview. She’s amos sample ward and you’ll find her at amy rs ward and amy sample ward dot or ge next week risk-alternatives and your disaster recovery plan. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by regular cpas, guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner, cps, dot com and by telus, credit card and payment processing, your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us our creative producers, claire meyerhoff. Family voices the line producer shows social media is by susan chavez on this music is by scots dahna with me next week for non-profit radio, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and green. Yeah. Snusz you’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving e-giving cubine are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings and conversations got you down. Hi, i’m nor ing. Sometimes the potentially ater tune in every tuesday nine to ten eastern time, and listen for new ideas on my show. 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