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Nonprofit Radio for January 24, 2020: Social Change Is Systems Change

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My Guest:

Heather McLeod Grant: Social Change Is Systems Change
And to change systems, you need to employ networks. Those networks need leaders and facilitators. Enter Heather McLeod Grant. She is co-author of the workbook, “Leading Systems Change.”




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[00:00:14.34] spk_2:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio. Big non profit ideas for the other 95%.

[00:00:35.42] spk_3:
I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. You’d get slapped with a diagnosis of metastasize, a phobia if you missed our third show in the Innovators. Siri’s social change is systems change and to change systems, you need to employ networks. Those networks need leaders and facilitators. Enter Heather Macleod Grant. She’s co author of the workbook Leading systems change and here start the live innovators that I promised you were becoming.

[00:00:49.43] spk_2:
Here they are on tony Stake to

[00:00:54.17] spk_3:
planned giving for the decade Responsive by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:00:59.80] spk_2:
Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:01:32.39] spk_3:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Now let’s meet Heather Macleod Grant. She is co founder of Open Impact, a philanthropic advising farm and a published author, speaker and consultant with more than 25 years experience in social change. The company is at open impact dot Io, and she’s at H M C Grant. Welcome, Heather Macleod. Grant.

[00:01:41.61] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony. I’m excited to be here, and thanks for having me back on the show.

[00:02:00.52] spk_2:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. Absolutely. It’s good to have you back. Um, so this is interesting work. This system’s change for social change. Um, why don’t you, um, get us started? Well, let me lay a little.

[00:02:23.84] spk_3:
I should guess I should let a little ground work. So there were There were these two to programs in San Joaquin Valley in California. You inaugurated the 1st 1 in Fresno County, and then your co author, Roedean a Dean Sacks inaugurated the 2nd 1 status last county two years later. Um, what? So just lay a little simple ground work? Why don’t you give us an overview? You know, beyond that, what kinds of changes were needed? What’s the San Joaquin Valley like? And you know, of course, we have the hour together, so you don’t have to pack a tony detail in here.

[00:02:40.04] spk_4:
Yeah. Great. Absolutely. Um well, I’ll start by saying that I actually grew up in the San Joaquin Valley, California. I’m actually from Fresno. My family still lives there

[00:02:49.63] spk_2:
now live

[00:03:13.72] spk_4:
in the Bay Area of California. But I spent many formative years in that region, and, um, it’s the central part of the state of California. It’s actually quite unlike what I think most people imagine when they think of California. They probably think of Hollywood and palm trees and beaches in Southern Cal, and they might think about Silicon Valley and technology in the Bay Area. But

[00:03:14.70] spk_2:
the Central

[00:03:24.72] spk_4:
Valley is a big agricultural region, and, you know, as we learned, it actually has a lot of social and environmental challenges and problems. That’s sort of the beginning of the story, and I’m happy to get into more details about that.

[00:03:29.32] spk_2:
Okay, let’s let’s, uh, do a better job than I

[00:03:32.49] spk_3:
did. I mean, I just laid out basic details, but, you know, basic stuff. But let’s talk about what those communities air like. You talk about social environmental challenges. I think they’re pretty ubiquitous. But you, uh, you tell me if I’m wrong, you lay it out. What kind of challenges these social change makers needed to overcome?

[00:07:01.85] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. So Fresno, just situated Fresno is a community of just under a 1,000,000 people. If you include the kind of surrounding areas the city of Fresno has about half a 1,000,000. Resident Stanislas is about half that size, and they are into central counties in the central part of the state. I would say the big challenges air because it’s an agricultural region. They’ve struggled for a long time with air quality issues and water quality issues. You know, pesticides from farming running off into the water supply duct from agriculture, along with urban pollution blowing into the valley from the Bay Area and the Coast and Los Angeles. They also have many of the same problems confronting many states in the central part of our country in the Midwest. Opioid crisis very high poverty rate, seasonal migrant labor. So big immigrant populations which of course, leads to racial and ethnic diversity, which can be a strength. But many of these particularly Hispanic families living in smaller communities have very, very high unemployment rates. They don’t have good social service is. So I could go on, but many of the same kinds of problems that we’re seeing across the country and you add to that, you know, political polarization again, people think of California is being very liberal. But the central part of the state, the Central Valley, is actually quite conservative. There’s a strong evangelical base. You draft through the value. See lots of Trump signed. Um, historically, the politics have been more red than blue, so it’s kind of a red island in a blue state, if you will. And that’s also led Thio increasing tensions and conflicts politically. So that was the backdrop for this program. And when the Irvine Foundation about a decade ago was doing listening tours and I should explain the Irvine Foundation of a statewide foundation to give the way about $75 million a year in the state of California. They were particularly interested in funding and supporting the family King Valley because it was historically overlooked. It doesn’t have the same kind of wealth and philanthropic resources that the area or Southern California have. So they were really interested in investing in building local community leadership capacity, and they did a listening to her about a decade ago. They heard from leaders that we want to help solve problems in our community, but we don’t have the tools and resources and the know how to do that. So we would love for you to invest in us. That’s exactly what the Irvine Foundation did. They kicked off this program. They hired myself and the firm. I was out at the time to do some initial research. And I can get you more into what we learned about the communities that we did some research. We designed a program. And then we ran this leadership in capacity building program over the last six years in these two counties. As you noted, we started in Fresno for three years, and then we replicated the program in a neighboring community in Stanislaus County. So yeah,

[00:07:02.52] spk_2:
and that I’m

[00:07:03.17] spk_4:
excited to dig into more of that.

[00:07:05.68] spk_3:
Well, I want to thank you very much for being a guest. That’s all the time we have.

[00:07:13.86] spk_2:
Heather, come on. I’m joking. All right. Um, yeah, it’s hard to

[00:07:30.06] spk_3:
imagine. I’m sure they exist. Maybe utopian communities in the U. S. But, I mean, it’s hard to imagine a community that doesn’t have at least some of what you’re describing, Um, economically, racially, politically, environmentally. I feel like I said, I feel like these challenges are ubiquitous. If if not in every community. I think most communities are suffering from a least a couple. So I think this has enormous relevance for the for our country.

[00:07:52.15] spk_2:
Uh, okay, yeah. Um, so So you you brought together a bunch

[00:08:14.34] spk_3:
of selected leaders of NGOs in the Let’s let’s let’s not lump them together. Let’s start with you. Were you were the leader in Fresno and that was the That was the inaugural program. So you know, we’ll talk about that one. We’re

[00:08:14.48] spk_2:
going to go out

[00:08:16.79] spk_3:
for our first break, but lets you know when we come back. Let’s start talking about how isolation is not gonna lead to big changes. And you know what? The what the workbook is about the how to sound good. Sound good.

[00:08:30.03] spk_4:
Sounds good to me.

[00:08:32.25] spk_2:
Okay. And we need to take that

[00:08:46.01] spk_3:
first break wegner-C.P.As beyond the numbers, they’ve got videos. Do you have immigrant employees? They’ve got I nine tips, and I’m talking about some of those issues today. They’ve got high impact grant proposal video also, sexual harassment awareness and other videos. All in the resource section, wegner-C.P.As dot com. Quick resource is and recorded events.

[00:09:07.08] spk_2:
Let’s do the live love. I feel like doing it early today. So let’s shout out. Fairfield, Connecticut, Tampa, Florida, Miami, Florida, Philadelphia and Salt Lake City, Utah. Live listener love to each of our listeners there. Where’s New York? New York? I don’t see Well, I’m here. But where’s the rest

[00:10:41.34] spk_3:
of New York City? Um, going, Going outside the States. We’ve got Seoul, South Korea. Always such loyal listeners. South Korea Very grateful to you and your house. Oh, come so ham Nida and a Tokyo equally loyal Thank you so much Tokyo Konnichi wa And of course, But the live listener Love’s got to come the podcast Pleasantries. So I give you lots of Oh, I give you lots of, um, lots of thanks to our over 13,000 listeners in the podcast community wherever we fit into your schedule Weekly monthly Semiannual If you’re binging your podcasts together that that infrequently pleasantries to you I’m glad you’re with us And late breaking late breaking Ah, lifeless Their love of Vancouver, Vancouver, British Columbia. Live love to you, of course as well. All right. Thank you, Heather. That indulgence. We’ll have a couple more of those. I’ll always let you know when they’re coming up Okay, so you convene these selected leaders and you know, we listeners just have to get the book way. Can’t spend detail we can’t spend time on. You know how you selected or who. But suffice to say, it was not just a lottery, and you were You were thoughtful about the leaders you selected in the Fresno community, um, to try toe to try to teach them leadership because they can’t make the changes to the systems that they need to need to be changed. Working independently in isolation.

[00:10:50.24] spk_4:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s right, tony. I think the big ah ha that we had when we did the initial research that informed the program design was initially the Irvine Foundation was thinking about supporting non profit leaders. And I know your show focuses a lot of non profit leaders, but one of our big insight was that non profit leaders cannot alone solve level problems.

[00:11:13.51] spk_2:

[00:12:21.35] spk_4:
lot of the structures that were living in our designed on and run through business, right, and the market economy or through government. So the resources of government and business are much larger than the resources of the nonprofit sector. And when we went out and did these initial interviews, we decided we really need to design across sector program. So I think that’s the biggest inside around the who we selected. We deliberately brought together leaders in the community, from the nonprofit sector, from the faith based sector from the business sector, including agricultural leaders from government, local government and county government. From media I could go on. So it was a very intentionally diverse group of leaders that we brought together. They all had proven track records in their community, but many of them were working kind of head down in their own silos and they weren’t seeing the bigger picture. They weren’t seeing how many of these things are interconnected. And so by bringing them together and putting them through this program, we helped them get out of their silos, begin to build relationships across the sector, lines begin. Thio collaborate across their differences, which included political differences but also ethnic cultural differences, age differences, gender differences and so on.

[00:12:41.83] spk_3:
And thank you. I I stated it too narrowly. It was way beyond just NGO leaders and you created the New Leadership Network and there was a lot of learnings around that. Let’s flush that out. What was that about?

[00:12:51.16] spk_4:
Sure. Well, we did we again. We didn’t want to just focus on management. So many leadership programs really focused on training leaders for a very particular context,

[00:13:02.31] spk_2:
like business

[00:14:28.25] spk_4:
leadership program or not, profit leadership program. We really wanted to look at community leadership and systems leadership. How do you actually help these leaders become agents of change in the larger context in the larger community and work on the big interrupt, seemingly intractable problems, environmental issues, poverty, income, inequality, etcetera? And to do that, we brought in a lot of the latest thinking in this sector. So we created a curriculum andan experience, and I want to say experience, because truly the program was experiential. We know that adults learn best through peer situations and through active learning, not just being lectured out for 10 hours with a bunch of power points lives. So we brought together frameworks around systems, thinking, helping them sort of do interactive exercises, toe, identify systems level problems in their communities and start to see from that bigger picture how these issues are interrelated and connected. We also brought in network thinking So this idea that you need to actually build networks to change systems systems are made up of people, and so you need to get groups of people collaborating and coordinating within the system to begin to change it. We brought in some design thinking from the D School at Stanford, because design thinking, you know, is a really interesting methodology that historically has been applied to business innovation and product innovation but increasingly is being applied to solving social problems. So the idea of going out into the community and doing user centered interviews, almost anthropological research to find out

[00:14:39.62] spk_2:

[00:15:28.04] spk_4:
what does it feel like to be, ah, young adult in the juvenile justice system in this community? And what can you learn from that? To begin to design new solutions? We also brought in an equity Lynn’s everything we did because we believe that without looking at how dynamics of power and erase and equity are playing out, it’s really hard to solve these problems. And then, lastly, we brought in things like coaching an individual leadership development. So those those were the kind of five pillars, if you will, of the program designed Systems Thinking Network thinking behind thinking equity and leader, individual leadership development. And together we created a program that ran for about nine days. So each of these leaders went through a smaller co court, convened for nine days over a period of six months where they did lots of interactive exercises, really built trust relationship, they

[00:15:38.68] spk_3:
So they met. They met three times for three days each, right over those six months. All right, OK. And how many individuals were in the first cohort in Fresno?

[00:15:48.11] spk_4:
Yeah, but we ran about between 12 and 15 per cohort.

[00:15:51.83] spk_2:
So it hold

[00:16:04.21] spk_4:
on, we ran for Coke. Or so we had about 50 leaders total in the community by the end of several years of the program. And it was about the same in Stanislaw Stanislaw. The code words were slightly larger, but we ended up with almost the total of 100. Individual leaders who’d come through this program in both communities over the course of five years

[00:16:20.14] spk_2:
could use a little more about the design thinking how that how that applies to this work. Yeah, absolutely. So

[00:16:22.38] spk_4:
the way I think of it, a system thinking is about being up on the balcony, if you will. This is Ron haIf. It’s great leadership. Goober out of Harvard, who writes about this being on the balcony and having that kind of bird’s eye perspective looking down on the dance

[00:16:35.72] spk_2:

[00:17:48.41] spk_4:
restart to see the pattern and the dynamic issues going on in the community. I think of design thinking as being down on the dance floor like it’s really grounded and individual experiences. And so by bringing those two together those two perspectives the kind of bird’s eye view and the deeply grounded perspective of how individuals experience their community, you can actually start to create really interesting and creative solutions. So 18 fax, who wasn’t able to join on the call today but was my colleague and running this program and she has you mentioned, launched the Stanislas replication sight. She had spent a year is a fellow at the Stanford design School that has no partner school of design, and you can look that up online. And they have really interesting programs where they’ve gotten quite interested in how you take design. Thinking which is simply a process, is structuring a problem in getting very creative about innovating solutions around that problem. She’s gone through a year. Fellowship the D school. We thought this is a really interesting methodology and tool that we think could be applied to solving community level problems. So the D school doing some of that work we’re doing network? There are other practitioners around the country who started using design thinking as a tool for innovation and creative problem solving in the social sector and around social and environmental problems. Not just technology problems or product design.

[00:18:05.15] spk_3:
You interested? You call it the D school? Um, but you’re only saving one syllable design or d you feel strongly about D school? We have to stick with the school is okay if I say design?

[00:18:14.94] spk_4:
Oh, it’s totally fine. That’s that’s just the shorthand that

[00:18:21.09] spk_2:
everybody calls. Okay, if

[00:18:21.27] spk_3:
I was if I was local and I’m an outsider, I see. Okay. Okay.

[00:18:29.97] spk_5:
Um uh, okay, um,

[00:18:31.40] spk_2:
so you’re trying to move

[00:18:57.11] spk_3:
these leaders from sort of scattered action in isolation into connection connected action, and you mentioned a little about empathy, and but I see that that’s got among these among them. The individual groups, the 12 or 15. You’ve got to build a lot of a lot of trust and empathy. I would think for them to be working, working together as a as a formative network going forward.

[00:19:31.11] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s where, like, the book we really designed, the book is a workbook. We wanted to kind of open source this model and share the frameworks and the tools and the methods that we used in this leadership programs so that other communities will hopefully access, hit and think about how they might use some of this in their own communities. But this, um, yeah, this question of how the leader is, you know, built trust really came down to taking the time to slow down and intentionally build relationships and have them get to know one another at a deeper level,

[00:19:39.99] spk_2:
like getting

[00:20:52.29] spk_4:
beyond superficial things like your resume or your job title or even what political party you have. Will he ate with. So we began the weekend, You know, we would do these convening that retreat centers up in the mountains. We get them out of their day to day. Um and we really started with these very, very personal introductions where people would talk about why they do what they do so their interior motivations, what they’re passionate about, what really drives their work in the world. And when you get past a lot of the partisan rhetoric and the sound bite, the way our immediate typically framed these issues, you actually find that we all have so much in common. We want healthy communities. We want to raise our kids in safe spaces. We want everyone to have opportunities to succeed. Um, you know, we want good health care systems and good education system and, you know, by by grounding it in those personal stories at the very beginning, people were incredibly vulnerable and, you know, they would tell very personal stories about, you know, just one participant that comes to mind. And Fresno, who’d grown up in a low income immigrant community whose mom was a migrant worker across the border, came here, and he grew up in a community where there were no sidewalks. There was no running water like there were no service is. I mean, it’s like 1/3 world country and, you know, hearing those stories was incredibly moving. Um, and again, I don’t care what your political persuasion is. A lot of This was about starting to build those alliances across traditional party lines, not making it about politics, but making it about people coming together to build trust, to build relationships and the link arms to solve problems in their communities.

[00:21:36.49] spk_3:
Yeah, you hit on such fundamental core values that I think every American shares opportunity, access to education, health care, equity. I mean, I think, Yeah, I think we all want these things. It’s then the divisions come about and we’re talking about how to achieve them,

[00:21:47.89] spk_2:
right? Exactly and okay. And

[00:23:23.44] spk_4:
we see that playing out the national level. And I think that’s one of the things you know. I spent my whole career in and around social change, and for a long time I really worked with big national organizations. I lived in D. C. For four years. I have lots of friends working in politics, and, you know, one of the beauties of being grounded and local community is actually when you get the local level, this is much less partisan. You know, we might disagree sometimes about the means to the end, but if you take it out of the context of policy debates and you actually start talking about, Like, practically speaking, what can we do to reduce homelessness in our community? Or what can we do to reduce income inequality? What can we do to make sure that kids have access to education so they could be contributing members to our society? Be economically productive, have a good life? Um, it takes it out of that kind of national divisiveness that we’re seeing so much on the news. And it really grounds in the context of local communities, which in some ways I feel like this is this is the great history of America, right? This is what the total was writing about more than 100 years ago. Um, you know, when when people in communities came together and build barns and solved their local problems without a lot of federal top down kind of intervention, you know, they had to be resourceful, and they had to be scrappy, and they had to be collaborative. And so in some ways, I think it’s getting back to that perspective of taking it away from the national polarization and grounding it in very practical problem solving. I’m

[00:23:23.60] spk_2:

[00:23:29.88] spk_4:
turning it into policy debates. In fact, we actually did not have elected leaders go through the program. We in Fresno. Um, we experimented that without a little more in Stanislas, we had a mirror in the program. What we found is, if you have elected officials, they can’t be truly

[00:23:40.27] spk_2:
horrible. Honest.

[00:23:52.73] spk_4:
They end up posturing more so So we actually found that it was better. Just have leaders who you might be some people who work in and around politics or previously been elected or might in the future, run for office. But there is something about the way we’ve constructed politics in our country right now that, um, you know, they just have to be so much posturing

[00:24:02.87] spk_2:
and concerned

[00:24:03.84] spk_4:
about money and re election, and that could be pretty toxic.

[00:24:07.81] spk_2:

[00:24:13.44] spk_4:
we really focused on leaders who were much more interested in the practical solution side of things.

[00:24:21.74] spk_3:
Yeah. I could absolutely see that. You know, there’s a persona for politicians that can’t be broken. You know what? Unless they’re in their home. I guess so. I could understand that, But you experimented. You know, this is all that. This is all a work in progress. You make that clear in the book there. There’s you learned. You learned a lot from Fresno to Stannis Laos, and there’s more to be learned. Um,

[00:24:36.98] spk_2:
yeah, so So you lived in Washington,

[00:24:38.92] spk_3:
D. C. For four years. So you were an East coaster for a while.

[00:24:42.64] spk_4:
I was

[00:24:43.14] spk_2:
I went to

[00:25:05.15] spk_4:
school in Boston, so I grew up in Fresno. I went back east to college in Boston, and then I was in Washington, D C. For four years right out of college. And I also spent two years in between in Europe. I had a rotary scholarship to study abroad and ended up working for the helpful of Europe in Strasbourg a long time ago.

[00:25:06.17] spk_2:
Okay, Yes. I

[00:25:07.52] spk_4:
have to meet experience and some international experience before landing back in California.

[00:25:12.45] spk_2:
OK, I’m just trying to focus on our differences. Now I’m a

[00:25:28.44] spk_3:
divider. So I either East coast sentiment is West Coast sentiment. I I’m trying to divide us the counter act. Your counteract your work, work. I’m working on either side. No, Um,

[00:25:36.34] spk_2:
you need to laugh. More help. Come on. How can I possibly be serious about this? Come on, come on. What were you saying? What did you say? Oh,

[00:25:38.27] spk_4:
I was just gonna say I might be bicoastal for most of my life, but I was actually born in Lincoln, Nebraska. So at my core, I’m a corn.

[00:25:45.63] spk_2:
I thought you

[00:25:46.23] spk_3:
were born in Fresno. Oh, okay. Your Midwestern.

[00:25:48.66] spk_4:
I was raised in

[00:25:49.59] spk_2:
front of my parents. Moved

[00:25:57.33] spk_4:
out there when I was three weeks old. My dad actually taught at the local university president State. He’s now retired, but, um, yes, you gotta He got a job there and moved out in the late sixties when I was a baby.

[00:26:07.03] spk_3:
Okay, so you’ve been East West and Midwest. Um,

[00:26:07.82] spk_2:
let’s talk about

[00:26:08.44] spk_3:
the guy. We it framework before we wait. We got a couple minutes before next next break. So the guy we had framework that was part of the new leadership network. Explain that a little bit.

[00:28:42.19] spk_4:
Sure. Yes. This is really just a shorthand, simple way of thinking about the different levels of the local systems that we were working on for us. The eye is like the leader, right? The individual Who are you as a leader? How do you show up? What is your You know, kind of, um, you know what? Your core values And how do you live that out? So one of the big lessons from Fresno to Stanislas was and Fresno. We were initially much more focused on the week for the network level, and then the system level the level, and we realized we were missing an opportunity to help these leaders build their own individual skills. So we brought an individual coaching as the court component of the program in Stanislaus again, as you said, we were iterating and learning and making adjustments as we went, which, by the way, is very much in the spirit of design thinking. It’s about iterating and constant improvement and refinement. The we is really the network level. So when we talk about, we were like, Who’s the greater we in a community who are the leaders are gonna join, you know our forces and solve problems. And so for us that we was actually building those relationships and building this network that cut across all of these lines of difference. Cut across sector, Silas cut across ethnic and racial difference, cut across political differences and so on. So the we was really about the network and, you know, I can talk a little bit later. If you’re interested in terms of how we evaluated, what impact we saw, Um, and then it was really the system level. So what are you know, the big problems that we’re trying to solve? What is the objective of our coming together and building our leadership skills? Building these relationships? It’s to solve these problems. So the it was kind of the container for thinking about, you know, everything from, um, racial justice in, you know, local law enforcement systems thio creating early childhood development programs to give low income kids. You know, that head started that boost, that they need to be ready for kindergarten. So we saw all kinds of different collaborations and projects emerge from this program. And that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about the it is the work itself. And you know, the projects in the programs that were driving direct impact on the community. And I hope after the next break, tony, I’d love to talk a little bit about some of the impact that we were seeing on these different levels.

[00:28:45.32] spk_2:
We’re gonna get to impact. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Uh um, it may not be right

[00:30:13.22] spk_3:
after the break, though. Give me a chance. I want to flush out. I want to flush out of them or I we it. But we gotta take this break right now. Quote. We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with the software, but they are always there to help walk me through it. End quote. That’s Sally Hancock in Altoona, Pennsylvania. More raves about the Cougar Mountain customer service. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page for Cougar Mountain accounting software, and you’ll find that at now time for Tony’s Take Two. Your Decade Plan for planned giving. It’s not only the beginning of a new year, of course, but, ah, new decade. So my thinking was, What if you started planned giving in 2020. You kicked off your plans giving fundraising program this year. How far could you be by 2029? Very far. You’ll be amazed at what you could be doing over the next 10 years and in the 10th year, if you start your plan giving program this year, you and I hear this so many times I’m guessing if you don’t have. If you’re not engaged in planned giving, you probably are cursing your predecessors for not having started it 10 years ago, so you don’t want to be cursed by your successors. So if you start in 2020 you can be offering all different kinds of gift vehicles way beyond the request that I always urge you to start with.

[00:30:26.07] spk_2:
You could in 10 years you

[00:30:57.74] spk_3:
could even be at the point where you’re forecasting planned giving revenue based on the years prior. So I say a lot more about this in a decade plan. I’ve got your decade plan for planned giving. It’s in the video, and the video is at tony-martignetti dot com. And that is tony Steak, too. Now let’s go back to social change his system to change our third entry in the innovators. Siri’s talking with Heather Macleod Grant, co author of the book leading systems Change.

[00:31:06.44] spk_2:
Okay, Heather, Um, so the you’re you’re I training. I just wanna make

[00:31:10.18] spk_3:
a few points that stood out for me, the not the I training, but the eye component of the highway. Yet you’re

[00:31:19.54] spk_2:
clear to say that it’s not, as you did

[00:31:26.67] spk_3:
say, earlier. But I want Oh, I like to hit points home out of maybe I bludgeoned points to death, but it’s not. It was not individual management management training. Not not about heroics and individual is, um, you make that point?

[00:32:39.14] spk_4:
Yeah, absolutely. So we It’s interesting. There’s been a whole body of work around in the social sector. Run Collective impact. Right? Collaboration like that’s been a huge thing for the last decade. Distance changed systems leadership. There was an article written in Stanford Social Innovation Review a few years back by FSG writing about systems leaders with Peterson Gay, who’s a great system sinker and theorist out of M I T. Um, So when we designed this program, we were very intent on thinking about leaders who are giving back and want to lead to change systems, not leaving for their own ego, not leading to get to the top of the career ladder, not leading with a really hierarchical kind of mindset, but really leading with a systems mindset or a collaborative mindset. So we, of course, designed the eye components very differently from a number of traditional leadership programs. But this is not just about elevating yourself above everybody else. Uh, this is really about being someone who could bring others together in the community

[00:32:45.45] spk_3:
who can

[00:32:55.47] spk_4:
facilitate hard conversations who can help create a shared vision who can help people collaborate and build trust, um, and can help move these groups forward across these diverse lines. And so, systems leadership really is quite different than how I think we traditionally think of leadership. Like the kind of heroic individual the Shackleton, you know, I’m gonna get to the North Pole. Um, no matter what and on. So So we really drew under the whole body of work. And I don’t want to bore your listeners with all the theory, But there’s a whole body of work around servant leadership systems, leadership network leadership that were really drew upon to inform kind of the model of leadership we were trying to instill in these folks.

[00:33:34.74] spk_3:
Well, this is my listeners need to get the book because the resource is air listed. Uh, why don’t we make it explicit? We’ll say it again. If I forget to say it at the end, you can remind me to say that you can just say again how dear listeners get the book

[00:33:47.88] spk_4:
so they can go to the website new leadership network dot org’s Just Google It. Or if you, Google leading systems change the title of the book, it should come up in a Google search. It will take you right to that website platform for the New Leadership Network, where on the home page you’ll see a very obvious link to download the book. You can also go to the Open Impact Website, my firm, open impact dot io and under our thought leadership, an inside page. There’s also willing to download the book

[00:34:20.12] spk_2:

[00:34:20.43] spk_4:
multiple ways. But if you Google leading systems change should be one of the top links

[00:34:25.67] spk_3:
are just new leadership network dot org’s.

[00:34:30.66] spk_2:
Okay, okay, Now, in the in the week

[00:34:38.61] spk_3:
component of this, you make the point again. Something struck me. Stood out for me was that working in community in network goes back to ancient times.

[00:36:18.13] spk_4:
Yes, so we don’t pretend that we have invented something brand new. I think you know, human nature is, you know, the very core were tribal and social people, right? We lived in tribes before we formed cities before we formed city states before we formed nations. Um and so at our core, I think human beings are social living community. But what I think is different over the last few decades through sociology, social network analysis on a lot of these new tools that we use network mapping, which is just a kind of fun hi tech tool where you can actually show the linkages between people increasing over time. You could start to quote unquote measure social capital in a community. I know I’m geeking out a little bit, but we really used again a lot of the the frameworks and theories around network and social networks and how relationships get formed to inform how we helped these leaders, you know, build built this community locally and again. There’s examples of the different tools, and resource is in the book. But I think at the core, you know, if you think about LinkedIn, I know Facebook is kind of in the dog house these days. But if you think about the theory underpinning online social networks, it’s not actually that different. I think the biggest difference is when you’re working in face to face networks and people living in a shared community not just online. It’s not just virtual, you know, they see each other at the grocery store. They run into each other,

[00:36:21.14] spk_2:
like having kids

[00:36:35.87] spk_4:
at the same school. They have a shared context, and they have shared problems that they want to solve. And so that was kind of the backdrop, for for bringing people together and very intentionally helping them start to build this trust and understanding with one another in a shared understanding of their community, so that they could start to collaborate on problems.

[00:36:48.38] spk_2:
And in the end, the systems that that is not part

[00:36:50.78] spk_3:
of sort of Western thinking and teaching to think of the system, the systems that were trying to impact.

[00:37:01.43] spk_4:
Yeah, So it’s interesting Western thinking, you know, historically, the kind of

[00:37:06.67] spk_2:
scientific break

[00:39:17.37] spk_4:
a problem down into its smallest component parts. And if you look a like academic framework is all about specialization specialization, you become a very specific expert at a very specific thing. Systems thinking is almost the opposite. It’s about seeing the big picture. I would argue that, you know, yes, it has sort of flavors of Eastern thinking in Yang Dynamics, but it’s actually been a part of our history and culture as well. If you look a TTE, for example, environmental sciences, they look at ecosystems. They look at how you know that the whole video online that went viral around the wolves in Yellowstone and how reintroducing wolves into an ecosystem actually fundamentally changed the course of the river’s right, which is kind of mind boggling. But you actually look at the way things interact with one another. The systems thinking is about the inter relationship of different dynamic systems and how you know kind of cause and effect moved on, how certain things influence other things. Um, so so looking at systems thinking, you know, and by the way, that engineers think in terms of systems, you know the Internet is the system, if you will. Capitalism is our democracies system. It’s got lots of component parts parts. So by looking at systems, you actually start to see the inter relationship of things and not see things in isolation, as we’ve often been taught in school, where you have very specific subjects and they’re all in their boxes. So it’s a much more interdisciplinary ways, thinking it’s a much more holistic way of thinking and again, it really focuses on how things are in a related like for example, you know, I’ve done a lot of work in early childhood development space. We now know that if a child is growing up with trauma in a community where there’s violence or where they may not have a regular parental presence or there’s a lot of instability that’s actually impacting their brain, which impacts how they perform in school, which impacts whether or not they can become a self sufficient, contributing citizen, right and hold down a job. So these air, these are complex systems that were working in. And I think we would, um, do better if we actually look att, these some of these issues much more holistically and start to see those interconnections.

[00:39:32.62] spk_3:
I feel like other other countries. Other cultures are further ahead in their thinking then and teachings then then we are in this respect.

[00:39:41.98] spk_4:
Well, it’s interesting. I mean, that’s really interesting question. I haven’t thought about it that much in terms of the international context. I do know there was a whole again we didn’t invent any of these frameworks. We actually drew upon whole bodies of literature and deep research and deep theory on practice. The system thinking has actually been around for 2030 years. There was a great author named Danela Meadows, who was writing about environment and climate change, which is is perhaps the definition of a systems problem. Climate change is not one thing

[00:40:12.16] spk_2:
driving it.

[00:40:42.72] spk_4:
It’s many, many, many things. It’s the way we set up economic incentives so that companies complete but not have to pay for the the impact of that pollution, right? It’s the way we’ve set up consumption, people ordering things to their house and Amazon, which leaves more packaging with, you know, I could go on and on, but again, it’s kind of looking at that problem more holistically. So that’s been around, particularly in environmental field for quite a long time. And systems dynamics also again informed things like how the Internet was designed. It’s been around for a while, but it’s perhaps not a mainstream. It does tend to be a little bit academic and a little bit wonky, and I’ve worked with some of these folks who have Ph. D’s and systems thinking, and they want to build the really complex, dynamic models like that spaghetti diagram of Afghanistan in The New York Times about a decade ago is the perfect example. So it tends to be a little wonky. Therefore, it hasn’t gotten as much mainstream traction. Um, yeah.

[00:41:11.68] spk_2:
Okay. Okay. Um, so the let’s transition

[00:41:18.49] spk_3:
to the impact. Um, and we just have about two minutes now before break before our for our final break.

[00:41:22.56] spk_2:
So on the on the individual side and we’ll get to the communities as well. But on the individual side, what kind of

[00:41:29.03] spk_3:
changes did you see as people went through the new leadership network?

[00:41:49.47] spk_4:
So a lot of different changes. We tracked this mostly through self reported survey. So again, it’s, you know, it’s it’s not perfectly scientific, it’s not as objective is measuring, you know, physical changes. But we did. We did track changes over time and individual leaders, and we we saw a lot of different things. So first of all, many of them self reported much greater confidence in their leadership abilities, thehe bility to actually talk about and understand community problems and bring people together to solve those problems. So we have lots of data on that, just in terms of they built new skills, they enhance their confidence. They felt more optimistic

[00:42:15.29] spk_2:

[00:43:02.20] spk_4:
solving problems in their community. They no longer felt so isolated or alone. We also saw external changes, like about more than half of the leaders and the president. Network changed job. Who’s in the 1st 2 years? Which is kind of interesting. I mean, I know we live in a society where people don’t tend to, you know, be the 30 years lifer at companies anymore. That world no longer exists. Then there is much more fluid ity. But what we saw with people after getting promoted into position within the community, where they might have been the vice president or an associate director at a non profit. They were then promoted to be the executive director of C E. O as an example, or they were hired to run a new, bigger organization. So we saw career changes. We also saw them joining boards and commissions. At one point, we tracked the number of different boards that leaders of the New Leadership Network and president had joined in. It was pretty astonishing, like they were all recruiting each other for different boards and commissions, and they were also starting to put their names forward to join public commissions being run by the city or the county government so that, you know, it’s almost like we created a leadership pipeline

[00:43:24.35] spk_2:

[00:43:25.12] spk_4:
the community by identifying these leaders, lifting them up, giving them skills. And then they got they started to be tapped by other people and other organizations in the community.

[00:43:35.90] spk_2:
Well, they trust each other. They know each

[00:44:11.13] spk_3:
other there. They’ve gotten beyond you know, as you said, beyond the superficial T know that these they they want to promote themselves and each other in the community. So you know that they’re proposing that they’re proposing each other for leadership is it’s gratifying. But based on everything you’re describing, it seems like it would be, it seems obvious that would happen. I know, you know. I’m not saying you should have predicted it just everything. The way you describe it and having read the book, it’s a beautiful outcome. Radio put it

[00:44:18.30] spk_2:
that way. All right, let me take this last break turn to communications. Did you ever wonder

[00:44:43.64] spk_3:
how some nonprofits always get mentioned in the news? It’s because they work to build relationships with journalists who matter to them and their issues turned to can help you do that. Their former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy, build meaningful relationships that lead to great coverage. They’re a turn hyphen to dot CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for social change is systems change.

[00:44:50.28] spk_2:
Let’s talk some about

[00:44:52.97] spk_3:
the, um, the community impact that you saw I love. I gotta shout out the one in Stanislavs there was a campaign. That shit is rigged.

[00:45:03.59] spk_2:
Ship is rigged campaign. You don’t start

[00:45:04.82] spk_3:
with that one, but I definitely want to flush it out. What did you see in the communities?

[00:45:09.35] spk_4:
Well, that one in particular was about getting more minority candidates to run for elected office

[00:45:14.31] spk_2:
because a

[00:45:14.67] spk_4:
lot of people of color who went through the network were frustrated that, you know, like many communities, I think President Stanislas has often been governed by people who sort of looked a certain way, came from a certain background.

[00:45:28.03] spk_3:
You know what

[00:45:28.45] spk_2:
I have been for eternity

[00:45:29.71] spk_4:
together in college

[00:45:30.85] spk_3:
white, middle aged man,

[00:45:52.72] spk_4:
mostly older, mostly boomer, mostly male, mostly white backgrounds. And so some of these people of color and Stanislas decided we need to start teaming up supporting one another to run for local elected office so we can have more diverse leadership that actually looks like the community. It looks like the demographics of the community. Look, just one example there are. There are hundreds of examples, and again we go into more detail in the book. But I’ll just pull out a couple of of my favorites and

[00:46:00.04] spk_2:
talk about

[00:47:37.50] spk_4:
the impact. One Partnership and Fresno, for example, started really working on early childhood development. There was a pre existing network in the community doing this work, but they started to come up with all kinds of creative ways to engage new participants in helping get low income kids ready for kindergarten. So they actually trained moms. They help moms in low income neighborhoods train other moms on preparing their Children for school, reading to them, helping them learn the alphabet, helping them get ready to start school. And just a couple of months, the program led 138 parent education workshop. That’s just one example. Another example in Stanislas was where police officers, um were, you know, historically the relationship between communities of color and law enforcement have not been so great. So, um, a team and Stanislas brought together through the Sheriff’s department brought together law enforcement officers with community members to talk about some of the challenges and problems around racial profiling. You know, shooting. You know, these shootings that are happening, black and brown boys and men of color and so on. And by having that dialogue, they really started to think about how they could change their training program for law enforcement officers and experiment with new ways of training them to be much more sensitive communities that they’re working in. And then one of their last example. I think that was great. In standard crosses, the county department launched an initiative to identify the 150 individuals who had the highest hospital, psychiatric and emergency room admissions. And again, we see

[00:47:41.39] spk_2:
this in

[00:47:41.65] spk_4:
every community where it’s often just a very small percentage of the population of homeless people were actually driving the most cost on the system

[00:47:51.80] spk_2:

[00:48:19.73] spk_4:
they’re cycling in and out of emergency rooms and medical care because of mental illness or substance abuse. So what? So they reached out to 10 of these individuals of the county department did and did interviews and really tried to understand their situation and used that input to actually think about design, a program that was actually much more responsive. I sort of got to root causes of working with these individuals, helping them connect to the support that they needed to address the underlying health issues and to get off the streets. So those are just a couple examples. Again, there’s many, many Maurine, the book and, you know, in President we saw 80 different projects and collaboration started by members of the network in just the first few years. So really fascinating how, when you bring them together, you empower them. You give them relationships and support and the common tool kit they can. And then you turn them loose on their community. They start doing really, incredibly innovative things.

[00:49:08.58] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s awesome. Uh, they’re uplifting to read, and you’re right. There are a lot more examples in the book. Let’s talk. We gotta balance the rest of our times, like seven minutes or so between challenges and opportunities going forward, so I don’t wanna spend too much on either one. So let’s start with some of the challenges like you talk about patients money. Let’s spend a couple of minutes talking about what you see some of the challenges going forward.

[00:49:50.80] spk_4:
Yeah, well, the problem itself has completed. So one of the challenges in our sector and I think anybody who works for a nonprofit out there will certainly identify with this. The Irvine Foundation changed their strategy. They had new leadership come in about five years ago, and they went through a whole strategic planning process. And they decided to focus on specifically targeting programs, dealing with income inequality and creating career pathways an opportunity for low income families. So this program no longer fit into their new strategy. They sunsetted it, the money ran out. So we’re no longer actively running the program. Although what I would say is that these networks have been embedded in the community and in Stanislas in particular, we partnered with the community Foundation is kind of the host of this work, and they’re continuing the work without Irvine funding. Without US leaders, it’s almost like we came in. We catalyzed it. But

[00:50:12.07] spk_2:

[00:51:02.84] spk_4:
work continues, the relationships continue, but I will say that for anybody seeking to replicate this in other communities. Having the funding to bring in professional facilitation, I think, really matters. Umm, having the ability to bring in a backbone organization or a host organization like the Stanislaus Community Foundation also really, really helps to embedded in the community. We were outside consultant living in the Bay Area. I mean, I was from Fresno, and you, the context really well and growing up, there are still a family there. I’m still an outsider. I’m still living in the berry, I don’t know the day in and day out. So having someone in the community who you know really, really embedded, I think helps, um, with that transition from the formal part of the program to kind of maintaining the momentum after the program ends. So those are just a couple of the things that we’ve seen Think for other communities looking at doing this, you know, definitely finding some funding, finding a host organization that combined maybe a neutral into be not trying to impose their own issue our agenda.

[00:51:16.56] spk_2:

[00:51:50.27] spk_4:
the platform for this work happen. And then I think also lastly, I think really critical to bring in equity limbs to this work we learned a lot of hard lessons about that. In Fresno, we had an all white training team. We weren’t really talking openly about racial dynamics power dynamics because, you know, this is hard stuff, and in Stanislas, we totally changed it up. We brought in a much more diverse team, and we really started intentionally bring conversations about race and power and equity into the room, because that’s really at the heart of a lot of where the system’s kidding stuck. So there would be some of the challenges for communities wanting to tackle things would be.

[00:52:12.04] spk_3:
The book is very clear about your very honest about the lessons you learned from Fresno to Stanislaus. Like you mentioned, having a backbone organization seems critical, etcetera. End the diversity of the the facilitators. Alright, so good. Thank you. That was concise. Thank you very much. Um,

[00:52:16.40] spk_2:
let’s let’s talk about some of the opportunities.

[00:52:21.99] spk_3:
I mean, you know, you when you mentioned those impacts, it seems like the opportunities air vast for for a community toe to take something like this on.

[00:53:58.82] spk_4:
Yeah, I do. I mean, look again. We had a little bit of the Irvine Grant left and we decided you know the best thing we could to for the, you know, the program itself. And President Stanislas isn’t going to continue, but but there’s no reason the work can’t continue. Right? So we took the remainder of the grant and used it to write up this workbook so that we could open source it and put it out there and encourage other communities to experiment with this, um, and try starting something like this on their own on the reason I say that is you know, I do think there’s a huge opportunity in this country right now. I mean it, You know, for anyone listening, is an activist running a non profit, you know, even working in philanthropy. This is a very hard time, right? We’re a difficult moment as a country with political polarization, rising income inequality. Um, you know, massive challenges around climate change around the opioid praises around systems like health care and education, that air just not performing as well as they should. So I think the positive the silver lining to all of the problems is these are also huge opportunities for people to get really creative. Stop doing business as usual. Stop doing what we’ve been doing in the past. It’s not working and start to really dig in and look at these problems and think about how we can collectively solve them. I mean, I think if I, you know, left your listeners with, you know, sort of a parting thought. You know, the way I think about this these days is there’s nobody coming to save us. We’re not gonna look to Washington to save us, right? Not have a thing with Washington’s pretty much tied up in a political impeachment trial at the moment.

[00:54:06.79] spk_2:
So what

[00:54:51.33] spk_4:
can we do in our communities to empower ourselves and to identify those people who are already cut out for community leadership, who perhaps have the emergent and nascent abilities? But they just haven’t been lifted up. They haven’t been lifted up within the community. They haven’t been able to connect to the other leaders that they really mean to be in solidarity with the tackle these problems. So yeah, so I think that’s my hope and my optimism is around the potential for this work in other communities and look different communities are already starting to lose it in very different ways. I know David Brooks had a convening of people working at the community level, you know, about a year ago in D. C or six months ago in Washington, D. C. And we’re seeing other communities that air coming up with innovative ways all in their own default these problems. So I think that’s where the hope is. I think we need to then identify these bright spots and start lifting them up so that we can all learn from these experiments. On the ground.

[00:55:07.74] spk_3:
Have the Macleod Grant, co founder of Open Impact. You’ll find them at open impact dot io. She’s at H M C Grant. You’ll get the, uh, the book ah free download Has Heather said at, um, New Leadership network dot or GE. I’m very sorry that Ah Dean couldn’t be with us. But Heather, thank you so much.

[00:55:27.82] spk_4:
Thank you, Tony.

[00:55:31.16] spk_3:
Thanks very much for sharing. We

[00:55:31.28] spk_2:
got late Breaking live Listener Love, Fukuoka, Japan Falls Church, Virginia, Burnaby, California Rahmbo Way, France. I apologize if that’s bad. San MATEO, California

[00:55:43.94] spk_3:
I know I said that right.

[00:55:45.29] spk_2:
Berlin, Germany. Good and dog, Germany to two inch Berlin. Good dog and young son,

[00:55:51.75] spk_3:
Korea on your house. Oh, comes a ham Nida,

[00:55:57.00] spk_2:
Thank you so much for joining us next week.

[00:56:04.02] spk_3:
Our innovators, Siri’s continues with the return of Peter Shankman on new road diversity. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you find it on tony-martignetti dot com.

[00:56:09.45] spk_2:
Responsive by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the

[00:56:38.19] spk_3:
numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com What I just realized Peter Shankman is not on next week. He’s on two weeks from now. So, uh, next week is Alex counts. Sorry about that, Alex. Yes, Alex counts is next week. And then in two weeks of Peter Shankman, you know how to see how desperately I needed an intern to blame for this shit. That’s unbelievable. Unbelievable. Let’s start again with the sponsors. Bye wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com by

[00:56:42.75] spk_2:
Cougar Mountain Software Denali

[00:56:44.46] spk_3:
Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial

[00:56:59.80] spk_2:
and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producer is Claire

[00:57:04.98] spk_1:
Meyerhoff. If she’s still willing to do the show after this. Oh my God, Sam Lee Woods is a line producer. He’ll probably still be around shows. Social Media’s By Susan Chavez I hope she stays. Mark Silverman is our Web guy. Help Male? He’s probably good, and this music is by Scott Stein licensed it. So he’s not going anywhere

[00:57:19.81] spk_2:
with me next week for non profit radio big non

[00:57:40.31] spk_1:
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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host we have a new am and fm outreach director betty mcardle she’s, based in portland, oregon. She has a long background in community radio, and she was recommended by her predecessor, gavin doll. I appreciate that, gavin, but he’s got lots of experience. She loves non-profit radio, so i know that we are in good hands as we bring mohr affiliate stations to the flock, the family, the foundation, the community very glad you’re with me. Betty, welcome. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with simpatico tonia, if you got me nervous with the idea that you missed today’s show prosperity paradox silicon valley boasts seventy six thousand millionaires and billionaires and revolutionary innovation yet local non-profits struggled to meet demand and suffer inadequate reserves. Researchers alexa cortez culwell and heather macleod grant explained the disconnect and the lessons for your organization. Their report is tthe e-giving code on twenty steak two i’ve got a plan giving webinar coming up. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers, we b e spelling dot com. I want to welcome alexa and heather to the show, but they haven’t called into our line yet, so we’re waiting. Sam, of course, is struggling. You’re sending them texts to sam. Okay, sam is trying to get them on the line. Wth e-giving code is their report, and this is based on silicon valley. New philanthropy and the paradox in silicon valley, where there is enormous wealth and enormous innovation and research going on, and yet silicon valley non-profits r struggling to meet what are actually growing needs, we’re going to talk about thea, the shrinking middle class in the silicon valley they ladies define the silicon valley with in terms of two, there are two counties, and we’ll talk about those that they define as the silicon valley area specifically for their research and the report e-giving code. So it’s ah it’s frustrating to hear that with the enormous wealth and, you know, we’ve got statistics like, um, well, it’s, a super rich place the number of millionaires and billionaires is has grown incredibly in six years from, like two thousand eight to two thousand thirteen, individual giving rose incredibly from, like two billion dollars to have almost five billion dollars, one hundred fifty percent increase the number of millionaires and billionaires now at seventy six thousand. In these in these two counties santa clara and san mateo counties, so enormous wealth and considerable growth in giving but the non-profits in those two counties, our ah are struggling. I’ll tell you what, we’re going to go out for a break and we’re going, so i’m going to try i’m going to regroup and see what sam has done, and maybe i’ll call the women myself and see what’s up with how come they haven’t called in to our line yet so let’s go out early for the break, we’re gonna come back with e-giving code and hopefully the two co authors of the giving code stay with us, you’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. We’ve got one of our co authors, i think, it’s, alexa, alexa, is that you? Yeah, okay, alexa, thank you, alexa cortez culwell, cofounder of open impact and a longtime philanthropy advisor, speaker and facilitator for the past twenty five years, she’s built and managed foundations and philanthropic initiatives for successful entrepreneurs, including serving as ceo of the charles and helen schwab foundation. She’s at alexa culwell and open impact is at open impact dot hi. Oh, welcome, alexa. Thanks for having me. You’re welcome, pleasure and honor to be with. Thank you. Is there gonna be calling in shortly? I am sure will be joining us soon as you can. Okay. All right. Well, we’ll see her on the panel. We have the dashboard for the the conference line. Okay, so let’s, then let’s, get get started. I gave a little overviewing while in the first block while we were waiting, hoping you were going to call silicon valley is very rich. I went through some some statistics about the number of millionaires and billionaires there. Seventy six thousand. But talk about the growing need. I didn’t. I didn’t cover this part yet. The growing need that non-profits air facing. Yeah, so we uncovered that there’s, this incredible growing wealth in the region and with it is growing philanthropy. And then there’s what we call a prosperity paradox and that’s exactly right. So it’s, this enormous economy and all of these wealthy people, and yet thirty percent of our residents are replying on some form of public or private assistant. Yeah, that’s! Incredible! A third. A third of residents need some kind of public assistance. Nearly a third. Yes, and one and one in three, which is a third of our kids are going hungry, so they’re on free. And reduced lunch programs. They’re accessing food from the food bank and other things. Um, what is the non-profit community like there? In terms of numbers and size? I know it’s ten, small and struggling, but give us more color than just that. Well, like the rest of the united states, the majority of our non-profits their small under a million dollars in revenue. And since in the last ten years, we’ve actually seen a lot of growth in the number of our non-profits almost thirty, one hundred non-profits in the region. And so and so we have a lot of non-profits a lot of small inns, and we also have non-profits that are struggling to get by. So they’re being displaced by this economy. They’re under siege and what’s. Interesting is not only are they kind of being displaced, they can’t afford actually operate in the region. The demand for their services is at an all time high, so people are on wait lists there being ah, dahna, you know? They’re just asking for help that these non-profits can’t keep up with that kind of thie irony of all of this and as a result, our non-profits they’re struggling, so they actually have deficit that are above the national average for organizations there and also being displaced from office base because it’s, the silicon valley on and i mentioned earlier san matteo in santa clara, county’s that’s how you define silicon valley office space is at a premium, so that’s costing them and that’s hurting them. Um, i have some of the stats from your executive summary eighty percent of non-profits reporting increasing demand for services over the past five years, seventy four percent don’t have access to high net worth donordigital works significantly hindering their outreach. We’re going to talk about that. The gap there, fifty one percent say they will not be able to meet demand for services this year and and on and on, you’ve got very nice multicolored summary there on page three of the executive summary, but of lots of lots of pretty colors in those in those stats, i like the electric i appreciate the color, thank you and think you’re actually reading the report and i do what you think of earth people to dig into our data. It’s awesome and there’s a lot of it. You think i don’t prepare for the show or what? What do you think? You’re very well off the cuff. Well, we haven’t. We haven’t spent the hour together yet. We’ll see what happens in one one fifty nine eastern rolls around. See if you still say that, but yeah, now the summary, i have toe critique a little bit because it’s my nature, i think the executive summary is a little on the long side. Sixteen page. I mean, i’m executive summary. I’m looking for like, two paragraphs. Well, then i won’t torture you with the full report, but it’s seventy nine pages of even more data graphics and deeper insight, and i really would urge people teo get into the executive summary and if and if they’re interested to really, really dig deeper into some of the analysis and implications for their work. Well, it doesn’t mean sixteen pages it’s a really tough topic and there’s there’s just i think we’re going to need to really kind of carefully consider these issues that were going to actually want to solve them. Well, i’m well acquainted with take point taken. Okay, now, but i’m well acquainted with the full report. I’ve read large pieces of it. I do not read all sixty nine pages, but okay, you know, executive. I mean, i’m a busy person. I don’t know. I’m sure you’re busy, but i’m busier. I need i need to paragraph executive summary. So, please, maybe you need a summary of the summary. Can you do that? Yeah, well, well, i think that somewhere you were pretty forward if we want to give it to people here and then they don’t even have to read the report. They can hear your interview. Go. Okay. Okay. I got it. Like i say, executive summary is the situation sucks. It’s bad and yeah, and we can do some things to help it. Is that teo teo to kurt? Well, i think i think that’s the set up to this report the set up is we have growing wealth and growing philanthropy in silicon valley. We haven’t even dug into that. So it ends up that all these wealthy people in silicon valley are actually giving a lot of money away where the disconnect is is that money is not making its way to a local causes an issue and the community based organizations, right, that kind of are the champions of those issues and those residents who need help and that’s the case in many communities, right? I think this is a trend we’re seeing across the country, you’re we’re seeing increased income disparity, we’re seeing growing need by the by the residents who are the most left out, and then a non-profit community that’s under siege. And so we’re interested. And yet we see this growing wealth and we think, well, are they giving money away? And if so, why isn’t it making its way to me? Where is this money going? And so in silicon valley, we track all of these statistics. We tracked individual giving the growth in private foundations the phenomenon called donor advised funds and also corporate giving. And there was mortgaging everywhere that was kind of the astonishing fact. But the majority of it does not go to our local organizations and heather’s now on the line, and can be brought into the call to add into this dialogue. Okay, sam, you’re ready way. Have heather. Okay, wonderful. Let me introduce her. Heather macleod grant is the other co founder of open impact she’s, a social entrepreneur, author and consultant with twenty five years of experience and social change. Both these women have twenty five years. Everybody’s got twenty five years today except neil fight host with twenty years she is. She is co author of forces for good six practices of high impact non-profits, which was named a top ten book buy of the year by the economist she’s at hmc grant and again open impact is that ah, open impact, dot io and also at open impact team. Okay, heather, welcome. Welcome to the show. Hi, tony. Thank you. And i apologize for the technical difficulties. That’s. Okay. Well, berate you later, it’s not, but not on the air. It’s ok, um okay. So alexa and i have been ah, diving in and let’s bring you in where? I guess we were really at the point where we’re saying that essentially the need is scaling much faster than the support is growing locally. Locally, that’s the point that election was just making heather let’s bring it in. Let’s bring you in with an explanation of what the giving code is, yeah, so the giving code, we talk about it in the report, and we talk about it being this kind of implicit approach philanthropy that many of these new donors have that is very much it’s, very much informed by their business background and experience, and they’re they’re they’re sort of expertise and technical companies, so for example, they’re very focused on impact, they’re very driven by metrics they’d like to measure outcome, not surprisingly, their innovative and disruptive, so they really like to think about, you know, how they can hack systems and change things like education or health care. They’re very connected and networked with their peers again. Many of these new donors are in their thirties and forties, they’ve grown up in the era of social media, they like to do things with their peers, so we see a rise and e-giving search kinds of group e-giving activities and you know, they’re they’re really again. Their approach to philanthropy is very much informed by their business background and experience, and so sometimes, unfortunately there’s a disconnect between this business like approach to philanthropy and the approach that community based organizations take yeah. And in fact, well, first, i want to make something explicit when we say they and they turned the donors were talking about newly wealthy philanthropist knew ah, high net worth ultra high net worth millionaires, billionaires in the inn, that to county area the way you, the two of you to find silicon valley there’s also ah, skepticism of non-profits heather, yes, absolutely. They look out across the landscape and they see this fragmentation among non-profit organizations, and they really think that non-profits aren’t being businesslike enough in their approach. So again, it doesn’t mean non-profits they’re wrong, they’re just not meeting the expectations of some of these new donors. Um, and and they do tend to be skeptical non-profits don’t inherently have scale. Almost eighty percent of them are operating on less than a million dollars in budget. That’s true for these two counties and it’s true for the rest of america as well. So these are the guys we’re used to running multibillion dollar companies, and they see these small, tiny non-profits and there’s just a massive disconnect you mentioned the growth of unicorns in silicon valley, which is the unicorn is a greater than one billion dollar asset value pre ipo and how the number has grown to twenty something right? I think in the region, yeah, there’s twenty one unicorn in these two counties now, i’m sure there’s i think there’s something like forty six forty seven nationally, but you know more than our almost half of the unicorns that we see now are here in silicon valley, and you’re correct those that’s kind of the local jargon or lingo for start up companies that have a billion dollars evaluation pre-tax haven’t, in two thousand eleven, there were three unicorns and twenty sixteen there were twenty one so again, just enormous growth in wealth and scaling. You refer to a bigger, better, faster, essentially, too, to summarize what the newly wealthy philanthropy philanthropists think and how they think, and then there’s the skepticism of non-profits of it, i mean, you don’t you don’t use this word, but would you say it? It suggests in a certain arrogance among these, these folks? Well, you know, some would say someone some would use that word. We wait, we don’t say it’s arrogance, i think it’s perhaps more ignorance or not understanding how. Social change works, but, you know, i do think some of these donors can’t come across that way in their approach to social change, they think, well, i built this billion dollars, you know, app that scaled in three years, i’m going to go fix public education, and they don’t really have an understanding of how complex social systems are, um, and again there really obsessed with scale and, yes, moving really fast and unfortunately, social change is an entirely different beast than building an internet company, right? It’s complicated and involved multiple stakeholders, you often have to find ways to work with a partner with government latto leverage the significant resources that are already in government, you’ve gotta engage communities, and you’re really trying to solve market dafs where they’re actually isn’t a paying customer sometimes, right? It’s, you know, solving homelessness is not something that you could do with the technical app, so so the complexity of these problems, i think sometimes pla mixes these new donors, and they do come in with this mindset of, you know, i felt this huge company, how hard can it be? And i think what we’ve seen many of them overtime. Bill gates, mark zuckerberg and others have learned that it’s actually really, really hard the’s air really big, intractable problems, and it takes time and it takes patience and it takes resources and it takes working in very different ways than just building an internet company. You and alexa are very nonjudgmental in the report, but it’s well, actually, tony, i’m going to jump it. I’m going to jump in here. It’s really not about judgmental or non judgmental, we find that not really going to help us get to a solution, and we call it the empathy gap because when people start relegating each other teo arrogant one percenters or social do getters, we find the conversation just stops and everyone walks away frustrated why heather and i wanted to write this report is we wanted to really probono deeply like, how could we get these two sides that are so disconnected? Who speaks such different languages who have such different mindsets and frameworks? How could we leveraged their strength to come together to really solve community problems? And if we stop at just going okay there too arrogant and you’re too much of a do better we don’t. Get to the solution, and the reason we wrote the report is we wanted to get past kind of those stereotypes and begin to bridge the empathy gap that is so wide right now. By the way, alexa, our listeners will know that earlier, when i said when i said i may be busy, but you’re busier. I mean, what did i say? I may be busy, you know, i said, you may be busy, but i’m busier. That’s what i said, listeners know that i was joking, but you might have rolled your eyes and said, who is this clown? But, you know, now i’m andi, i’m teo for twenty minutes, and yeah, he’s only takes about thirty seconds for people to recognize my i mean, i’m judgmental about myself, arrogant, certainly big doses of scare of sarcasm, so all right, we’re all busy, but heather, that was in the context of i was saying earlier, when i see executive summer, expect like, two paragraphs, not sixteen pages, and then the sixty nine full page, sixty nine page full report that i had to reed, you know, so i was that i was asking alexis to scale it down. But i understand it’s, a complex problem, and all right, but i expect to pay an executive summary. I was scrolling through the pdf. Is that what this is a summer? You need a. You need a summary of the summary? Okay, wait, we got a little ambitious. My last project was a book, and so i let you keep joking that i was trying to turn this into a book. So all right, well, you’re in the right trends in terms of least my attention deficit. So you know the next thing you could do instead of a report, maybe, just to a paragraph. Great. Well, we could try. I suppose you could sum it up. You could probably get into one hundred forty characters if you tried really hard, but yeah, basically, it sucks. I had said that earlier. All right, let’s, get to the to the challenges that you identify between that are preventing the two communities the newly wealthy philanthropists and the community based on non-profit organizations from coming together. Alexis let’s, go back to you. You basically the first one is they don’t they don’t know each other that’s how i know that that’s how i put i’m using my words you have different, you know, you live in silicon valley, it’s a pretty compact in place. We’re not talking about, uh, this enormous area, these air to counties and people live pretty close together. And some of our poorest neighborhoods are right next door. Some some of our wealthiest neighborhoods. And yet these two groups of people the ones who have all this capital and are giving it away, and the ones who desperately needed in order to help are most needy residents. They just are worlds apart. They have completely different networks and ways of thinking about place. And at the heart of it, it really is about community in place, so the donors are often globally minded. They’re working or running global companies, they’re traveling all over the world for those companies, and they will have homes in different places and relate and identify with different places as their home in community, whereas the nonprofit and community based organizations that we work with r really thinking about places, the place where we live and raise our families and our kids go to school where we go to work every day, and this is our community, and it deserves our attention, and it deserves to be healthy and vibrant for the sake of all of us. And so the social networks just don’t meet as often as you might think they’re like worlds apart, even though they may only be blocks apart. Yeah, you call it the more articulate that you called the knowledge and information gap. I was just saying they don’t know each other. Let’s let zach with you for another one. What you call the social network and experience gap. I just say they don’t have ways to get to know each other that’s, right? They don’t, they don’t, they’re not at the same cocktail parties, they’re not vacationing in the same places. They’re not even going to the same grocery stores, and even though they live sometimes within a mile of each other. That’s, right, it’s just a very stark contrast and kind of an odd conundrum, but it makes sense, right? I mean, there’s, a sense of place in community is different, and their social networks are really different. Let’s jump over to you and and continue this thread on the gaps that what you call the mindset and language gap, i just say it, they look at the world differently. Yeah, that’s, that’s going back a little bit of what i was saying before about this language of business and metrics and scale and that’s a language, you know that these tech entrepreneurs have come up and many of them have had almost no exposure to social problems or public policy or government or social work. And on the other side you have non-profit leaders, many of whom came out of programs for public policy or social work and who really speak a much more moral language, a language of ethics and social justice and taking care of the least well off. And so, again, we find that there is kind of a disconnect in terms of the language and frame works in the mental models, if you will, that the philanthropist use versus the language and framework and mental models that community based organizations in particular use and later on that that many of these community based organizations were serving low income population, sometimes there’s literally a real language kept sometimes these populations are speaking spanish or their low income asian communities, so you’ve got lots of different layers of disconnect, and and that leads to what we ultimately say is an empathy gap and that’s why we don’t like to use words like arrogant, we don’t wanna point fingers because we actually feel like that’s already happening too much it’s too easy to write off these business people is being arrogant and greedy and that’s actually oversimplifying and it’s not also taking their good intentions into consideration. We really think we need to get beyond the empathy gap, have each side try and understand the other in the world that the other is living in and that that’s what’s going. To ultimately help bridge the gap. Okay, perfect, ladies, we’re going to take a break for a little while. Your i have to do a little business for our sponsors, and of course we’re going to continue our conversation for the remainder of the hour. And now that we’ve talked about what creates the what the gaps are, you know we’ll spend the balance of time talking about bridging those gaps on the positive side and, uh, encourage you again to have ah, two paragraph summary of your executive summary, so stay with us. Ladies duvette there’s more of this prosperity paradox coming up first, i got a chat with you about pursuing because they have a new info graphic grow your monthly e-giving your problem, you need to raise more money solution in part monthly giving and that’s what the infographic is about. Ah, it helps you, whether you’re creating a program or trying to convince your board or your c e o of the value of a sustainers program or you need to grow your existing program and your fund-raising mix the infographic has got strategies to launch and grow tells you how long you can expect sustainers to stay with you and gives you tips for attracting new donors and there’s more to it as well. It’s all in mourning for graphic. Amazing, very, very highly concentrated, dense with value. And it is at pursuant dot com quick resource is my voice just crack get resource is fourteen years old quick resource is and then info graphics at pursuing dot com we be spelling spelling bees for fund-raising you need a fun millennial event, check out the video it’s from one night of spelling and stand up comedy music great fun! The video is that we be ee spelling dot com now for tony’s take two. I am doing a free webinar coming up later this month. It’s jump start your planned e-giving how to get started. Who the best prospects are were the types of gif ts that you can start promoting right away right away easily dispel yourself of the myth that plant e-giving is only for larger organizations and only for major donors. Both of those are incorrect. Both fallacies. I’m gonna explain plan giving simply ah, not using my legal background. I can explain it to you so that you will understand it. And understand how to get started. You know my focus is small and midsize shops that’s who the webinars for it’s on thursday, march sixteenth two o’clock eastern affiliate listeners there is time for you to be with me. I know sometimes the timing doesn’t work for you by the time i and i put something in the show and then by the time you’re your station airs, it may be too late. This one the timing is perfect for you it’s march sixteenth there’s still time you register at tony dot m a slash jump start your pg the link is also on my video, which explains a little more about the webinar and that video with the registration link is at tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two and i feel like doing live listen love podcast pleasantries and affiliate affections a little differently today we have listeners all over the country all over the world, but today i will instead of identifying city and state and sending love and pleasantries and affections, we’re all one big non-profit radio, family flock, not a church. I almost said church, not a church, but we’re one family. Whether you’re listening live right now or among our twelve thousand podcast listeners or among our am and fm affiliate station listeners, today, we’re one big non-profit radio family. So the love and the pleasantries and the affections go out irrespective of what your method of listening is. I’m very glad you’re with us. That is tony steak, too, all right, let’s, bring the ladies back, and, uh, you know, you, uh, you have something interesting. Anybody can comment on this, the you devote a page in the full report to the good wani brothers. They sold their company to netscape in nineteen ninety eight, and in two thousand three, the co founded a nonprofit to india community center. And basically, what i come away from that page is they recognize the brothers, recognized that this is hard work, having a non-profit. Yeah, i love that story in our report. And tony, it does prove that you’re you’re a much more diligent reader than you let on, because that’s all the way on page fifty for the report, but there was a couple of reasons we wanted to feature their story, their immigrant, uh, americans who came from india, they started a really successful company, that’s contributed to the economy in the valley, and then they decided to give back by starting a nonprofit that would serve the indian diaspora in silicon valley. That would be a gathering place for indians to come and to share culture and food and language and ping pong, which they love. And so it’s an enormous community center not unlike the jewish community center model we often see in the u s and they started the very first one and silicon valley, and we talk to them because we wanted to hear about there journey, starting a community based organization and also about how philanthropy work in other cultures and communities. And, you know, philanthropy is a rather novel thing to america, it’s part of our culture and its distinct distinct from other cultures and other parts of the world, and so they just shared how challenging it’s been to raise money from other indian americans around this really compelling non-profit that they’re building because they prioritize helping their families back at home. E-giving toe heart hyre roo i causes in india, where you can literally save someone play for set their whole life on a new trajectory by sending them to school for hundreds of dollars a year on get this incredible return. And so they’ve been on a journey to figure out how to build a sustainable business model for this very vibrant community center that they started some time ago. That was alexa, right? Or is that just alexis being? Yes, i’m a little disadvantaged cause you sound a little a little like, but i figured, yeah, that xero voices don’t don’t apologize, and i want to remind listeners that alexa cortez culwell and heather macleod grant are the co authors of this the of the study i’m called e-giving code and also co founders of open impact ladies, how come open impact your your your your consultancy around social impact and how come you’re dot i owe you? Didn’t you didn’t get in early enough to get dot com or dot or gore dot net, will you not dot org’s? But how come dot i owe on your for your very trendy, trendy and hip trendy in him, it is kind of the forefront of of the new. Yeah, but, you know, a lot of people buy up lots of names with dot org’s dot com, even though they’re not using them that we just went. Dad, i oh, okay. It’s. Another word you came? Yeah. It’s. Cool. Because why? Oh, i iove well, well, because that io is also open impact initial backwards, right? So it’s ah, it’s ah it’s a palindrome that’s, right? Oh, i i don’t. I don’t. I don’t know what kind of some kind. Okay, well, yeah, if you take just the initials but it’s not it’s, not a lie. Dot io it’s open impact, your honor name. We will tell you what, why open impact is such an important name and part of the value of the work we do, which is we think that non-profit leaders today are constantly balancing the tension of staying open and adapting to the complexity that they’re dealing with all around them, the external landscape is so volatile, but they’re also being required to really measure their impact and report that in clear terms. So we are really committed, teo writing and speaking and publishing about that. And we help our clients with that. Yeah. You have a very good video at open impact dot io who’s who’s fireplaces that that you’re in front of that’s. A beautiful fireplace. Is that one of your homes? No. That’s, a dear colleague of our living room. Okay, i kind of want to see the kitchen. I was hoping the second half of the video was gonna move into the kitchen because the fireplace is beautiful. Fabulous. Yeah. Labbate all right, maybe the next video, he’ll let you use the kitchen. Okay, let’s. Go back to the substance, though, so let’s, start bridging the gaps. I don’t know who want to take the first way, but, uh, you do something. You suggest something called connect to build empathy. We want to talk about that. Yeah, this is heather happy too. I’m happy to jump in on that. So so i do think bridging these gaps really starts by finding ways to bring these donors and these non-profits together and there’s a couple of examples in our community of organizations that are doing that we’ve also seen traditional intermediaries. Their role has very much changed in this landscape. I don’t think alexa touched on this before it joins the call, but just in brief our local united way has emerged, so we now have a bay area why united way that serving like twelve different counties and our community foundation is very nationally and globally focused on working with many of these donors on all levels of e-giving but not just community e-giving so what we’re finding is, as these intermediaries have kind of changed their role in the ecosystem, new intermediaries, air having to step in until some of these gaps. One example is to silicon valley social ventures, which was actually founded sixteen, seventeen years ago by laura, ari, aga and reasons and it’s e-giving circle, where donors actually come together, meet local non-profits vet them, they pool their money and their resource is so you don’t have to be a billionaire. You don’t even have to be a millionaire to join you can contribute six or seven thousand dollars pool your money with other donors and then vet local non-profits and find knows that you think are, you know, the most interesting, having significant impacts have leadership that you like and basically make an investment in that organization and what’s really great about this model is many of the partners in this e-giving circle actually take board seats or become mentors to the non-profit so this is, you know, one example, but we think it’s the perfect example of what we need a lot more with these opportunities for these donors to actually connect with these leaders, mentor and coach them start having a conversation where the non-profit leaders can teach the business with yours about social change and why it’s so complex and why it sometimes really hard to measure their impact, and at the same time, the business leaders could bring their technical and their marketing and their strategy skills, cities non-profit organizations, and really helps them be even more effective. So it’s again connection and learning together, we find it a very effective way to start. Bridget yeah, engagement if i put a five letter word to it, genuine up boat way just lose alexa, i don’t know. Heather used to with us, no, i mean, i’m here, i’m good, we’re here. Oh, you are okay. Whoever was whoever was listening on the call, the third party that wasn’t invite the third party that wasn’t invited, just dropped off. All right, they could have just listened online. It’s so much easier than calling the number. Um, yeah, and i think, you know, this is the section bridging the gaps that has the real value, i think, for our listeners, because these are things that non-profits can do in their own community. You know, there are lessons. That’s, why i wanted to have this conversation with ladies, because there are lessons for the entire nation’s non-profit community based on your findings. Just in two counties in california. What do we got? Well, this’s, alexa, you’re exactly right. I mean, the report is received a lot of national attention because issues of income disparity, issues of the wealthy and philanthropy, and the very unhealthy state of many of our local community based non-profits is something that is concerning in many, many cities, in urban areas and even rural areas in the country. So i do think we’ve been surprised at how much has been resonating, because on one hand, silicon valley is so unique. But, on the other hand, is part of the really odd story that we’re also so much like other places. Yeah, well, that’s, your it’s, a well written report, and that it comes out the value for the community nationwide comes out if i can call that a community. Oh, and all that national media attention has brought you to this moment non-profit radio. You see that, right? Yeah, and we’re grateful to you see that? Yeah, okay, what, i don’t know, whatever the national media you’re on, but it brought you two brought you here. So there’s, roger’s stepping stones, all right, let’s, let’s, let’s, continue to bridge the gap. Thank you for agreeing. You have no choice. I understand that let’s, continue bridging the gaps. Who wants to talk about creating educational opportunities in your your step two? Well, this is heather. I can jump in again. I mean, so two thoughts first on the like this resonates across the country mean, one thing we are doing, you know, we start to see up solutions in the report, but we’re actually starting teo focus even more on what would it take to implement execute some of the solutions in silicon valley? Because we actually do think if we can start to solve some of these divides here that’s a model that other communities might want to emulate, but going back to what you said, tony, i think it does come down to engagement, and one thing we’re realizing is that that both sides need to be educated that can happen through connection and experience are learning the both sides really need to build their capacity to engage with the other. So in this case, many community based on profits, they’re so resource strapped, they’re so focused on being head down, trying to serve the communities there, serving that often they’re not actually doing a good enough job of creating real donor engagement opportunities. Finding ways to connect into these networks happened to these networks. I get it that takes time and money, and when you’re serving the poor, the temptation is to spend all your resources on your program. But then you have nothing left to build your organization and build your outreach and build the donor engagement opportunities, or even to market and get your information out of these donors even know that you exist. So we think there’s education opportunities on both sides the opportunity to build the capacity of non-profits to be more sophisticated and how they reach out and engage these donors and how they have theories of change and strategies and how they measure their impact to the extent that they can and how they can tell stories used metrics, not just wonderful anecdotes, i think again playing both the head and the heart, same time donors need education to we were astonished as we talk to many this philantech how long it takes him to get up the warning firm, sometimes five or ten years, and there are some programs out there, the philanthropy workshopping one there are some other programs out there that focus really on donor education, but we need many, many, many more programs like this because there are many more millionaires and billionaires who are coming online with their philanthropy and our country stuck. They don’t even know how to get started, so so education can also be a stepping on dh, creating things. Circles are accessible and communities all over the country, and the data is showing that when a donor joins e-giving circle, they give more and they give more faster, they accelerate, they’re giving their more satisfied there, more confident, so really simple things. Non-profits khun dio is help think about curating e-giving circles or joining with partners, and if a donor is listening to the podcast, you know, joining a e-giving circle is just a a fabulous way to accelerate your impact. Also also just creating or seeking out volunteer opportunities, and i have to stop you. Alexa, hold on, we’ll take our last break. Hold that thought, please, andi will continue, okay, hang on. 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Hi, this is claire meyerhoff from the plan giving agency. If you have big dreams but a small budget, you have a home at tony martignetti non-profit radio. Oppcoll welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m with alexa and heather, and they are co authors of the giving code that that is they’re reporting you confined their full report and the lengthy executive summary there’s my judgment, i’m not i’m not no, i am not nonjudgmental judgment confined the full report in all its robustness, both forms at open impact dot i oh, which is actually a very pretty sight, ladies. All right? And i do love the video. That’s a very good video of the two of you. Um okay, alexis, i think you had a thought that i cut off you wantto ex charity? Well, i was just saying that, you know, a creative thing for a non-profit to do would be teo curate e-giving circle on the cause that their organization is all about and to try to get some donors and learn about the issue and to learn how to give and donors likewise confined giving circles there’s lots of those in their communities. It’s an easy way. Easy, inaccessible way to plug in non-profits i think there’s lots of capacity building opportunities for non-profits and they really need to think strategically about building their capacity to pitch their organization proactively. So what a lot of donors told us is there often coaching non-profits on what they need rather than having a non-profit pitch some kind of anticipating what they’re going to need, and i think it’s pretty easy to anticipate what the donor’s need they want, like, a really clear narrative about what the organization does, and they want really clear numbers, they want to know very basic things in a very clear way, like, how many people do you serve? How deeply do you serve them? What’s the evidence you have that something is changing in their lives for the better, and how much does it cost to do that service and why? And non-profits really struggled to just step up and and frame those issues in a non apologetic way, never heather and i are out talking non-profits they they really struggled to just kind of state and the state it clearly, and so the best advice we can give in terms of educating yourself is to go out and really learn how to put together follow-up plan that you can pitch to donors that really anticipate their objections. Like, you know, overhead is a big objection donors donors often will express. And the leader who just, like gets ahead of that. You know, who really explains what the organization does and why how they do it so efficiently is really gonna win with owners versus one that’s kind of caught on their back foot trying to answer that question. Yeah. You refer to the overhead myth, and i thought we were i thought we were past this. I had back when this happened. When? When? Guidestar and charity navigator and better business bureau wise giving alliance. I created this problem. I had the three ceos of those organizations on and we talked about thea overhead myth letter that they all signed for the country. And this was back, like, three years ago. I think it was twenty thirteen. Are we not past the overhead myth among, well, let’s talk about the court you’re dealing with among newly wealthy philanthropists. Are they not overhead that? Are they not past that overhead myth problem? Well, tony, this is heather and it’s. Interesting. Because my book forces for good came out almost ten years ago and we started to take on the overhead myth in our book back then, and i think, unfortunately, even though those of us who are kind of insiders in the nonprofit sector feel like, you know, haven’t we gotten past that? Haven’t we said it’s really about impact and outcomes, not the inputs that it takes you to get to that impact? Unfortunately, i think some of these new donors coming online are not yet with the program, and these kinds of, you know, stereotypes and overly simplistic ways of looking at measurement, unfortunately continue to persist. But as alexis said, we’ve also seen amazing examples of community based organizations taking that argument and just flipping it on its head. So one great example. Peter forton bob, who runs the local boys and girls club in our community, serving literally thousands of low income students and kids and partnering with schools. He’s really been a subtle intra printer, and within the boys and girls club network, he’s really innovated around their core models and, you know, i went to a fundraiser they had two weeks ago, and not only did he have the ceo of youtube, susan would just be was a judge. On the panel, he had the ceo of lincoln in the audience, and he had cheryl sandberg is opener, the ceo of facebook. And when he got up to give the pitch to that audience, peter, by the way, has a harvard mba. It worked in tech. Former mackenzie really smart guys made some money now dedicated his life to service and running this grassroots community organization. So he knows how to talk to these donors. And he stood up and he made a pitch that you would hear kind of on sandhill road and the tony kind of blue chip venture capitalist offices. He stood up and he said, guys, this is not charity. This is an investment. This is an investment in the youth in our community. This is an investment and where we live, this is an investment in our future workforce. And by the way, we hyre top talent. We have a great organization, we have state of the art technology. We don’t work on twenty year old computers and guess what? That costs money. But if you invest in us here’s the return, you’re getting it on that investment and he walked through the numbers. Of the impact that they’re having, and i’ll tell you what, they raised a million dollars in one night in that room, unbelievable and that’s an example of what we don’t see enough non-profit leaders doing is getting out ahead of the argument, anticipating to push back and saying, yeah, you know, you want me to run a small, shabby organization that’s never going to scale or have impact? Fine, then we can talk about overhead, but if you really want me to have impact, you’ve got to pay for the things that it takes. So we would just love to see more non-profits in this country, learn from these examples and figure out how to do this and get on the front foot rather than being on the back foot. Excellent, excellent. Okay, we have we have just about, like three minutes left together, ladies. So and i want to get to the rest of the your specific methods of bridging the gap. Let’s just stay with you, heather, and talk about just in like a minute or so. Increasing coordination and collaboration among non-profits on dh and then also among i know that’s hard to do in a minute, but then also among the let’s, just talk about it for the non-profit just on the collaboration on the non-profit side. Okay? Please. Yeah, so this is all i’ll be quick, and then i’m sure alexis may have something to add as well, but, you know, i’ve done a lot of work over the last five, seven years of my career working on networks and collective impact, and we actually think this approach holds great promise when it’s done the right way because you have hundreds, if not thousands of tiny community based organizations, the answer isn’t necessarily to have them all merge because that’s not practical, but if you can get them more coordinated and aligned around the goals that they’re trained, the problems we’re trying to solve and setting shared goals and setting shared measurement and collaborating rather than competing against each other, you can actually have much more impact cubine also attract more resource is because donors look out and they say, oh, finally, all these small little guys, they’re working together on solving the problem that’s what i care about, i want to put my money into that so there’s a couple examples in our own backyard one called the big lift, which is an early literacy program for early childhood development, and they’re working with several hundred non-profits they’re working with school district, they’re working with the county government, and they have managed to create this kind of collective impact network. So we think again, we need to see more of this in our sector, we need to see more non-profits kind of stepping up and really getting aligned with other non-profits and coordinating rather than everybody kind of putting their head down and doing all right, you have, and then you have a fourth, which is building capacity and addressing costs, and we’ve pretty much covered that not under that rubric. We’ve talked about that so let’s, let’s wrap up with, we just have a minute left celebrating success. Please, alexa well, so whenever we see a philanthropist and a non-profit doing this the right way, we need teo tell their story. And in silicon valley, we actually have some really great stories of where this is working. Well, so it’s not all bad news. We have some extraordinary philanthropist who are commited locally and telling their stories why they’re committed locally how they give their money to smaller community based non-profits how they partner with them is just critical to raising awareness that it can be a great and satisfying thing to do is a donor and and go beyond just e-giving safe bets to your alma mater or to the things that are familiar to you. Stepping out of your comfort zone has huge rewards. Andi, start funding these organizations and we have to leave it there. Alexa cortez culwell she’s at alexa culwell heather macleod grant she is at hmc grant. You’ll find the report and the summary at open impact dot io ladies, thank you very much next week. Thank you so much for being a call. Alright next week doing good, better effective altruism for individuals with takeaways for non-profits of course, if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com. 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