Transcript for 497_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200710.mp3

Processed on: 2020-07-10T21:19:42.925Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2020…07…497_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200710.mp3.328328597.json
Path to text: transcripts/2020/07/497_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200710.txt

[00:01:55.54] spk_1:
big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with lateral epic condo leitess if you strained our relationship with the idea that you missed today’s show. Digital Accessibility. How do you make your digital products more accessible? Think data visualization, color choices, alternative text screen readers and more. Laura Patch from Sierra Club reveals the details. This is part of our 20 NTC coverage. Also inclusive design. Nick Steen How says Forget about upgrading for accessibility. Rather, he wants you to design inclusively from the beginning. Whichever path you take. The point is to eliminate barriers to communications. He’s an independent accessibility consultant. This is also part of our 20 NTC coverage on Tony’s Take two Dismantling racism were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant in for a free 60 day trial and by turn to communications, PR and content for non profits? Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Here is digital accessibility. Welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC. That’s the 2020 non profit technology conference. We were supposed to be in Baltimore. The conference was canceled, but we are persevering, virtually irrespective. Our coverage of 20 NTC is sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund.

[00:02:20.44] spk_0:
Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? You can go to tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial.

[00:02:32.04] spk_1:
My guess now is Laura Patch. She is digital project manager for the Sierra Club. Ah, Laura. Welcome.

[00:02:33.74] spk_2:
Hi. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:35.39] spk_0:
Uh, pleasure. I’m glad this worked out. And, uh, I know you’re well and safe and glad. Glad to hear that.

[00:02:41.64] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:02:54.94] spk_1:
Your ah topic is everyday accessibility. How everyone can make digital products more accessible? Why is this important for all for all

[00:02:55.93] spk_0:
nonprofits, irrespective of what proportion you think your users are. Your visitors are that with with disabilities.

[00:04:03.24] spk_2:
Um, So there is definitely a portion of the population that has permanent disabilities that we should be concerned with. They have high buying power. Um, disposable income that will on make them want to donate to your lovely non profit. And by having accessible, uh, digital products, you make sure that they can participate in your mission, but awesome. Their situational disabilities. If you think about the last time you took your cell phone out and it was great and funny and you couldn’t see your screen back, actually an acceptability issue. And if you focus on creating high contrast images like you would for somebody who has color vision problems, then you’re benefiting all the people using your website on their phone in break fun. So thinking about this situation, all ones will help your organization as well.

[00:04:04.64] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Thank you. I want people to understand that I’ve had NTC guests say that. I don’t know. It was a couple of years ago, since since we’ve covered accessibility, but yeah. Thank you. Um,

[00:04:30.74] spk_1:
there’s a little pause in the video. Um, So what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna pause the recording. I’m gonna ask you to leave the meeting and come back in. Okay? I’m gonna pause now. All right, let’s see if

[00:04:31.92] spk_0:
this works a little better. Maybe not so much video hesitation. Um, so this is, uh you’re covering every digital product you say. Not just This is not just for websites.

[00:04:45.04] spk_2:
Correct? In my presentation, I talk about how to make your documents, your slides and a data visualisation more accessible.

[00:04:54.84] spk_0:
Okay, um, should we, uh, should we start with documents that Okay,

[00:05:23.84] spk_2:
Yeah, but, um, So one of the things that I suggest is to make sure that you use the actual heading setting whether you’re using Microsoft Word Google docks, whatever your platform is, um, this is important, because if you take text and inject, change the format of it, then screen readers can’t tell somebody that right? Whereas if you use heading one heading two heading three, a screenwriter will include that and what it reads to the person so it helps them navigate through your content.

[00:05:39.50] spk_0:
Uh, okay. I don’t think many people are doing that. I think most people just radio heading and then boldface it.

[00:05:49.94] spk_2:
Exactly. Yeah. You really want to take the time, Teoh Change it so it’s heading, and you can actually adapt style so that once you apply heading one, all of your heading ones have that style. It’s really actually easier work.

[00:06:01.74] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Right. Then you rather than you have to do it manually. Ok? Um okay. What else? What else? For documents.

[00:06:17.54] spk_2:
Um, this is one that people also frequently forget. We’re doing a better job on websites, but all images should have alternative text. Uh, that should be a no longer than two seconds is preferably even shorter than two sentences. It should describe what’s happening in the image without using words like image of photo of, um, and this again also helps with screen readers. It helps if the images loading slowly as well. So if you have poor Internet connection, you’re again on your cell phone. With no cell service, you can still tell what is conveyed in a image by the alternative text. Okay,

[00:06:49.11] spk_0:
why do you say, why do you not use the language photo of our image over something like that?

[00:06:55.94] spk_2:
Because the screen reader will tell people that it will say image, and then it’ll tell your alternative text so it’s repetitive to keep saying it. Describe what people might feed.

[00:07:10.17] spk_1:
Okay, Okay, Anything else with with images?

[00:07:12.54] spk_2:
No, not.

[00:07:14.04] spk_1:
Do you have to be concerned about color, color of our images or anything like that?

[00:07:30.34] spk_2:
If you’re gonna put text over the image than yes, you want to make sure that your image background in that text have Ah, High column, cross radio. There’s some places on the Internet You can check to make sure that that’s working well, but basically you want toe have either a light background with dark text or vice versa on. And if you can’t achieve that because a lot of things were happening in the image than doing some sort of floating background behind your text with playing around with capacity. I’m concerns that will work while too.

[00:08:05.43] spk_0:
OK, I’m sorry. What do you mean, capacity was the opacity. Opacity? Yes. Okay, I’ve seen that. All right, Opacity, SS. I’m trainable. Alright? Opacity, Of course. All right. Um, yeah. More documents, Sure. Sure.

[00:08:10.31] spk_2:
Yeah. So those are some good tips for documents? Um,

[00:08:14.85] spk_0:
was that it? Is that it for documents? Okay. Okay. Um, where should we go? Uh, uh, data visualization, right?

[00:08:24.14] spk_2:
Yeah. Expands more on that color stuff that we were just talking about. Where you go, you have high contrast colors. Um, you do have colors, like, Say, you have a graph that has five color. So it becomes really difficult to make sure that every single one of those colors have five contrasts. You want to add pattern.

[00:09:08.14] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As changes to paycheck protection program Loan forgiveness There have been many, but none this week. Congress skipped a week. Wegner hasn’t up to date free wagon. Or that explains the latest go to wegner-C.P.As dot com. Click Resource Is and recorded events. Now back to digital accessibility with Laura Patch.

[00:09:42.04] spk_2:
So I have some visuals for this in my presentation. So let me see if I can describe it Well, um, imagine that you’re looking at a map of route map of buses, right, and you have five routes and there’s purple, blue, green, yellow, red. And if those arrows for the route across each other and you can’t tell the difference between purple and blue, you can’t tell where the route goes. But if you add a pattern to the color saying one of them is a stolid line and one of them is a dotted line, then you can continue to follow the path, even if you can’t tell the difference between those two colors.

[00:09:54.94] spk_0:
Okay, okay, good, Yeah,

[00:10:16.44] spk_2:
yeah, On this works in grafs as well. If you have a pie chart, my yourself makes this really easy. But you can do it in other programs where you can add patterns to your wedges. So do a light color in the background. And then do you hired darker color of the same shade, right? So it could be like blue with blue polka dots on top of it so that they can tell that high fly slice goes to whatever your label is on the side.

[00:10:30.09] spk_0:
Okay? And if you don’t do this, what is it? The problem that all the colors are gonna look similar to someone who has accessibility issues?

[00:10:39.64] spk_2:
Yes. If you can’t see colors than they can’t tell what high slice goes toe. What data point?

[00:11:05.96] spk_0:
Ok, um, same thing with bar charts. Is there anything same would apply to bar charges? Most pie charts? Um, graphs. You talked about lines? That’s the analogy. Analogy. There is the map. Right line. Line. Line line graphs. Okay, Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:31.99] spk_2:
The thing to think about right is that accessibility guidelines say you can’t use color alone to convey a meaning. So when you’re looking at graphs, you want to make sure that somebody can tell like if they can’t tell the difference between colors, they can still understand the information you’re trying to convey. Um, so another way to think about it is like if you’re looking at pins on maps, right, they might have different colors for restaurants. First days, uh, community service places, but you can’t tell the difference between those two colors. That doesn’t really help you if you add an icon to that pin suddenly like the icon of a fork tells you. But that’s an eatery versus just the color of the pen.

[00:11:52.74] spk_1:
Ah, I see. And then how will a reader interpret that?

[00:11:58.04] spk_2:
That’s an excellent question, usually aboard, to make sure that there is data labels as well. So label that as restaurant versus just the information.

[00:12:23.86] spk_0:
Okay, okay, I could see a mean a map. I’m just tryingto understand how a screen reader interprets, um, a map like that Local A. T M’s or gas stations. It can do

[00:12:59.08] spk_2:
that. Uh, maps. There were some of the most difficult things to make Fully accessible, said. There’s basically and if especially for a non developer person, it’s very difficult because there’s things you can put into the code of amount toe, give things, labels. Um, so most of the time If you’re thinking about accessibility from a non developer standpoint, you’re gonna be thinking about the visual ramifications. So those I Hans in your, um, in your pens, I always having a list of the information instead of just the map. Visual is really helpful to because the screen reader can read the list as opposed to the not itself.

[00:13:18.04] spk_0:
Okay, that makes sense. I was wondering if you’ve, uh, well, yeah, it wouldn’t make sense for the for people who don’t have a disability toe leave out a map and just do a list. But actually, so have both. Okay, the screen reader could make sense of the list. OK, OK. OK, um, anything else about data visualization?

[00:13:32.54] spk_2:
No, I think those are the key points for developers.

[00:13:38.74] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Um what else? Uh, what what

[00:13:40.99] spk_1:
was the other category? You had

[00:13:42.84] spk_2:
a slides.

[00:13:44.44] spk_0:
Oh, for slides. Okay, Power point or Google slides. Okay.

[00:14:42.64] spk_2:
Um, so the same thing. Kind of occurrence for slides as it does for images and documents. You want to make sure you have that alternative text. Um, but the thing that’s unique about slides is that you want to make sure you’re paying attention to the order items are on. Um, if somebody can’t use a mouse, we’ll use the tab button on their keyboard. Um, and the order that your items on your slide are is the order that this screen reader will also like, read your side through. Right. So an easy way to test how a screen reader is gonna read your content to someone is to use that tab button and navigate as if you don’t have a mouse. Um, So, for example, if you want your slide title to be read first, you want to make sure that the first tab is that and I’ve seen a lot of slides where it will be the image, footer, slide content and then title. And you’re like, Well, this would make no sense it was going to be in that order. How

[00:15:00.60] spk_1:
do you change

[00:15:07.13] spk_0:
it? Is that the sequence with which you put them on the on the template slide as you’re making it? Have you control with the tab sequences?

[00:15:11.46] spk_2:
Yeah, that’s the default way. Feel like as you add things, that will be the order, but you can right click on any item on your slide and send it to the back. Send it to the front. Defended forward. Backwards. So you just want to play around with that until it’s the right order that you want.

[00:15:29.93] spk_1:
Oh, that’s what that

[00:15:30.75] spk_0:
thing means. Send forwards finback. Okay, okay.

[00:15:45.74] spk_2:
That can get a little tricky for designers, because it’ll be like putting Bill block certain things with another square or some things that you do have to pay attention. Tilly, if you’re destroying what is visually you showing as well. But for the most part, you want to make sure that cat order makes us

[00:16:09.44] spk_0:
okay. Okay? And and that applies, um, for either Google slides or Power Point. You just right. Click on some right click on an item, and that’s how you can set the sequence. Okay. Okay. Um, anything else slides? Slides wise.

[00:16:13.49] spk_2:
No, that’s right. For slides.

[00:16:24.04] spk_1:
Okay. Okay. Um, should we should we say anything more about color choices overall? Well, we’re

[00:16:26.43] spk_2:
okay. There’s Cem programs that you can check your contrast levels, um, as well as develop a color palette that it’s accessible. Um, so if your organization hasn’t done much in accessibility, you might want to talk to your design team just toe. Tweak some of those colors to make sure that their high contrast I see our club actually just recently changed our color palette to make it more accessible so that we can use more color combinations,

[00:17:06.28] spk_0:
Can you, ah, name any of those resources that are available to check color contrast, and you can send us to,

[00:17:59.58] spk_2:
uh, mine. My favorite is color palette Accessibility Checker. It allows you to put your full color palette into their system and then check each color against all of the colors in your palette for that accessibility purpose. Um, if you’re Jeff checking two colors for contrast purposes. Web aim color contrast Checker is a really good one on both of those. Tell you a and double A levels. So the Web accessibility has level A. Which is the least, uh, the minimum that you need to dio Double A, which is what most organizations looking for and tripled a triple. It is very difficult to do when you kind of have toe constantly, maintain it toe, reach it. So if you’re thinking about all the lawsuits that are coming out about accessibility, they’re mostly talking about double standards.

[00:18:07.43] spk_0:
What are some of those lawsuits around our visual products.

[00:18:52.84] spk_2:
Yeah, the big one that came out in within the last year is the dominoes case. Um, somebody was trying to order pizza online, I think, actually through their up on and was unable to do so. So they sued dominoes for acceptability. Um, and won the case. Oh, okay. Do you want one of the things that we’re still trying to get figured out is the 88 definitely applies to digital products. Over those bases are considered public domain, like public public domain, but like the public space similar to if you walk into the restaurant. Um, but the congress hasn’t actually passed anything that’s told us what those guidelines are. So most people are using the web accessibility, Web content, accessibility guidelines as what be our gaming for, But it’s not legally state that yet.

[00:19:11.94] spk_0:
Okay, Okay. But it is a benchmark for for now, until the courts Yeah, decide on a standard. Okay. Um what else? What else should we be talking about?

[00:19:34.94] spk_2:
Um uh oh. I have one more resource that might be helpful, but for people. But it’s called the color blindness simulator. Um, and it allows you to upload an image and then check different ways of color blindness. Though it’ll stimulate a red color blindness, the blue color blindness. So you can see what that image looks like if somebody can’t feel the images.

[00:19:51.34] spk_1:
Okay. And what is that again? Color

[00:19:53.81] spk_2:
color blindness in later

[00:19:57.54] spk_0:
simulator. Okay. Okay. Um, those are excellent. You ticked off like dozens of I don’t know to Doesn’t things or something. Excellent. Um, you leave it there. Does that sound like

[00:20:06.74] spk_2:
a

[00:20:07.39] spk_0:
good coverage? Okay. Cool. Uh, thank you very much. Laura Patch. She is digital product manager at the Sierra Club. Laura, Thank you very much.

[00:20:16.87] spk_2:
Thank you.

[00:20:22.24] spk_0:
And thank you for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of the the virtual 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software.

[00:21:47.29] spk_1:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountains software. Their accounting product Denali is built for non profits from the ground up so that you get an application that supports the way you were That has features you need and exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. Now, time for Tony’s take two. You’re dismantling racism journey. That’s our newest special episode, and it’s out. You will have a long journey. So start with this single step. My guest is pretty itchy. Shaw. She’s president and CEO of Flourished Talent Management Solutions. Starting where you are with your people, your culture and your leadership. How do you gather data about racist structures that are right under your nose? Who do you invite to the conversation? She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on. She helps you see the way forward next week. I’ll have it on YouTube If you want to wait for the video, that is Tony’s Take two. Now it’s time for inclusive design with Nick Steen. How welcome to tony-martignetti non

[00:21:58.79] spk_0:
profit radio coverage of 20 and TC 2020 non profit Technology Conference were sponsored at 20 NTC by Cougar Mountain Software. With Me Now is next in how he’s an independent accessibility consultant. Nick. Welcome.

[00:22:06.64] spk_3:
Hey, tony. Thanks for having me. Really nice to chat with you.

[00:22:10.24] spk_0:
Thank you. I’m very glad we could work this out virtually. And, uh and it’s good to know that you’re well and safe outside Vancouver, British Columbia.

[00:22:20.40] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s difficult times, but we’re staying safe yet.

[00:22:32.10] spk_0:
Alright, Alright, um, your NTC topic is forget accessibility. Think inclusive design s O. What is it about accessibility that you want us to? Who forget?

[00:24:41.84] spk_3:
I think that when we’re focusing on Leon excess stability, we’re forgetting that accessibility is good for everyone. No, As as an individual with a disability myself, I will never forget that implementing where backs disability is above and beyond for people with disabilities to be able to use the web. But if we’re thinking Onley in those terms, we tend to forget that, uh, making sure color contrasts are good. You know, you’re not using great text on great background. That’s good for people with low vision. But it’s also good for you when you’re using your mobile device and full sun when you’re talking about making sure the the target area for ah click is big enough for someone who has cerebral policy and doesn’t have fine motor control to click on that little check box. It’s also good for someone that has big fingers and trying to fill a form on the bus or public transit. Uh, when we’re talking about plain language, we’re also talking about? Well, maybe maybe someone has a functional in permit. Maybe it’s a young mom with a very young baby that has colic. So she’s trying to juggle a sick baby in one hand and read up information on her mobile phone on the other. And the cognitive load is very, very impacted. So there’s all these things that are really important for people with disabilities, but that I also happen to benefit everybody a little bit like in the physical world. We started implementing curb cuts that was good for wheelchair users. Sauce good for parents pushed airs for their kids, for delivery people with it appears on unstable. You, um, you may have to edit me and post.

[00:25:08.14] spk_0:
Yeah, let’s keep going. Ah, lot of times the, uh, the the way it appears is not. The word is not what’s getting recorded. I’ve had that happen a couple times, so we’ll just Kentucky as long as we can still hear each other. Yeah, um, and if the video becomes unusable, then we’ll just do the audio. Yeah. Also cuts also help those of us who are pulling luggage. Yep.

[00:25:28.39] spk_3:
So it’s it’s really a question of universal access. And when we’re start thinking about what we’re doing, we really should talk about inclusive design. It’s it’s going from, um it’s going from situation that are equal, but different to situation where everyone can benefit.

[00:25:35.96] spk_1:
Yeah. Okay. What is your own disability?

[00:25:41.02] spk_3:
I’m a wheelchair user.

[00:25:49.59] spk_1:
Okay. Does that impact screen use? No, it

[00:27:10.24] spk_3:
doesn’t. Not for me. Um, but I’ve had a situation where I was, Um, a few years ago, I managed to broke a wrist because I slid on ice in my I can’t out of the sidewalk felon in the street broke arrest. So I had a problem moving around, obviously. And about a week later, I broke the other risk in a car accident. So I was severely impaired from being able to use the keyboard. Normally, type about 80 words minute. And when that happened, I was starting to fingers and it was very, very awkward. Eso having been a an accessibility expert for a large number of years, I was also faced with having to to learn things I knew were there on you. The tools, for example, Dragon, naturally speaking, to be able to to speak to the computer for, for interacting and you all that I had used all that in testing. But the point was really brought home about no. As a wheelchair user, I realized the barriers in the physical world. But as, um, as a suddenly web disabled user, I had to relearn all these things again.

[00:27:53.64] spk_0:
Yeah, I see how deeply personal this is for you. Um, I’ve had guests on talking about accessibility. I know we’re supposed to You wanna think inclusive design? But those guests were framing it as accessibility on and, uh, I’ve never heard anyone mention the size of a radio button the size of anything that you need to click on as being difficult to land on for someone with cerebral palsy Or, I guess, other neuro muscular disabilities as well. Yeah. Um,

[00:29:18.64] spk_3:
yeah, it In general, we tend to to know about accessibility for screen reader users because it’s been the most obvious. The biggest barrier is for people that are have vision impairments and then rely on SSF technology like screen reader users. But the fact is, there’s a whole range of disabilities that effect using the Web. There’s obviously people with no vision or low vision There’s people with hearing impairments that, for example, if there’s no transcript for your show, they’re not gonna be able to interact with the shore or get material out of the show. But aside a side issue to someone who is born deaf and grows up deaf. Where American Sign language is their first language. The grandma, the structure of the language, is so completely different from English. So when they’re interacting with content, a lot of these native SL users English is their second language. And then if we don’t try to in plain English, it makes content difficult to digest. There’s just all kinds of little things that if it’s not something we’re used to, or we don’t stop to think about it, there’s impact all over the place.

[00:29:43.54] spk_0:
Yeah, Okay. Yeah. Um, let’s see. So, um, how should we? How shall we continue? Um, and there are other. Are there other design concepts I ideas that you want to share, just like your listing them and explaining them? Or should we approach this some other way?

[00:29:46.94] spk_2:
Oh,

[00:31:33.78] spk_3:
sure. If we’re gonna use video, let me share. You’re one of the a couple of the slides. I have in my, uh, in my deck for the presentation, which might actually bring something to to the viewers. Um, we’re tired, King a lot about, um, equality making the Web equal for everyone. And in this slide, I have an image of, uh, three kids, very short kid, the middle height kid in a tall kid looking at a ball game over a fence, and they’re all on, uh, all on the box. That allows them to be a little bit higher, but the box is the same height for everyone’s. The very tall kid gets to see very well above defense. But the very short kids still can’t see above it if we contrast that to equity, which is a concept that we’re talking a lot about Is that well, they’re very talk. It does not need any boxes to see over defense. The kid that’s no halfway between the two can use one box and he can see over the box and then a very short kid. If you stack two of those boxes suddenly he can see over defense. So we’re talking of an equitable situation, and that’s one of the concept that I want people to realize is we have to stop thinking about access abilities in terms of equality, but we really should start thinking about it in terms of equity. But if we push further, um

[00:31:52.69] spk_0:
and thank you, Nick, for explaining what’s on the slides because, ah, lot of people won’t be seeing the video. It’s an audio podcast. And then if our video is good, I’ll put that on the YouTube channel. But most people are just getting audio through the podcast. So you’re thank you for sounding like a screen reader as you describe what’s in the

[00:33:54.14] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned that it’s something I’ve gotten used to do, and I do. Presentations is that I rarely put visuals up on the slide that I won’t take time to explain because I don’t know who in my audience has vision issues. I don’t know who may not be able to process an image. They’re better at processing the odor words then then what they’re seeing. So I always try Teoh to make sure that I describe what’s going on because it just it just makes on. Um, the other thing is that, um, when we’re thinking about this relationship between equality and equity. We could also start thinking about barrier free, which is the step beyond that, which is really thinking inclusively if in our thinking process, we think about whichever thing we design. And that includes offense, where we have to go through the process of what would be an equal experience, what would be an equitable experience? How about we do offense that everybody can see through without needing boxes to get up? So in this image, I have the same three kids an offence. But instead of being a psyllid plank fence, it’s actually a wire friends that everybody can see through. So I really want people to shift thinking from this idea of us versus them, people with disabilities and people without disabilities, disabled people versus abled people. I want to get people started to think about. We’re all in this together, and we have to build barrier free, um, environments, whether it’s in the built environment or on the Web. So it’s really important to to start that shift in thinking

[00:35:32.74] spk_0:
okay on, and it’s sort of, um, um, I don’t know if revolutionary is too strong a term, but you’re you definitely want to shift that you run a shift, at least if not if not revolutionary, it’s ah, It’s a substantial movement from where people are thinking now, Um, my sense of it is ah, lot of Web and I and I guess we shouldn’t even limited to websites. But because all digital products, right, Whether it’s ah, yeah, we’re a word document using headings, using the headings, um, format versus you, writing the text and then highlighting it Which reader isn’t gonna recognize? So it’s all it’s all digital products, not we’re not only talking about websites. Um, my sense is that most of the thinking is that you create something and then maybe you go back and try to adapt it, which would be, you know, uh, adding, adding the same, that would be your will be the first picture that you just showed, which would be changing it. What changing the way it appears for everybody or the ways design you have the way it appears for everybody. After I’ve already done my design and creation. Then I go back and yeah, and ad code for ah screen reader. Let’s say all right. My sense is that that’s the more prevalent on yeah, more prevalent methods methods.

[00:38:24.82] spk_3:
That is what’s happening mostly out there. We really want to shift the thinking in terms of thinking about accessibility from the get go. Obviously, in our my my talking about accessibility, I never forget. The primary goal of this is making things work for people with disabilities because we have such a need to access information, quicks example. So much of the information now is Onley available online because of the coronavirus. But so many of the size that provide that information is not available because they’re not accessible. So we have. We have a failure of the system for people with disabilities accessing information, which is critical and even, maybe vital. So we want to think about accessibility from the very early phases off the first design, where this wire frame or even just concepts, one of the complaint. A lot of the people I interact with and have done for over 25 years that have been involved in this wonderful world is that people say, Hey, Nick, accessibility. Yeah, I get it, but it’s so expensive, and then I start telling them about and experience from my own life uh, I know someone who built house, and they just had two steps under the entrance and the door was fairly narrow, you know, it was 28 inch door or something like that. 30 inch? Not sure. And then they became a wheelchair user and they had to retrofit the house. They had to actually remove the front door. They had to remove bricks around the front door to make a bigger opening. They had to put a ramp in. And of course, that was very expensive. But had they actually build house that was accessible in the first place? Had they put in a door that was wider and had no step entrance? That added cost at the time of building would have been maybe three, maybe 5% mawr, instead of costing tens of thousands of dollars to To fix digital accessibility is the same thing. If you build it accessibly in the first place, it won’t cost you any more because in theory your designers, your developers, your quality and assurance testers everybody in that chain and that workflow should be having the skills and the knowledge to build it accessibly. Now the reality is and doesn’t always happen, but, um, it’s good. So exists. Ability does not have to be expensive and can be baked in from the start. A little bit like blueberry muffins. Have you ever tried to bake blueberry muffins and put the blueberries after the muffins are cooked? It’s not gonna work.

[00:39:23.22] spk_0:
Have not have not tried that. Now, Um, the only reference I could think about in, uh, popular culture blueberry muffins made That makes me think of the movie. Ah, casino. Where the The head of the casino, Um uh, tells the baker that he wants, um, the same number of blueberries in every muffin because he just cut open a muffin that had very few. And his breakfast companion had ah dozen in his And, uh, so and that. But that’s not what you’re talking about. Sorry. That’s a silly digression. I like movies. Um, and casino is a very good one.

[00:39:55.02] spk_1:
Time for our last break turn to communications relationships. The world runs on them. We all know that turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help you when you need to be heard. So people know you’re a thought leader in your field, and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re a turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for inclusive design from 20 NTC.

[00:40:00.61] spk_0:
Any other idea what other ideas do you want to share around inclusive design?

[00:43:23.50] spk_3:
For me, one of the other important concept to think about his accessibility is not a checklist. We’re using standards and guidelines. For example. The standard right now for checking it for site is accessible. Not is the Web content accessibility guidelines Version 2.1. That’s the most recent version of the guidelines. And if we’re going through that, we end up using a checklist. Our ultimate images have alternate attribute. Can we get through to all the elements on the Web page using the keyboard? Only is there enough contrast between text and background? And there’s There’s a long list. There’s like nearly 80 success criteria, and each of them have specific testing checkpoints to to look at. But if we think Onley in terms of conforming to the standard, we’re falling back into this trap of looking at putting the blueberries back in the muffin after the muffins have been baked. We’re looking at basically the minimal amount of work we need to do to get away with with it to not be sued, for example, whereas I really want people Teoh thinking in terms of, we want our website to be usable by as many people as possible with as little difficulty as possible. So we should think about getting away from accessibility In terms of checklist. The checklist is useful as a way of getting a pulse of the health of our website, but we have to look at everything else as well. And if we’ve thought about Texas ability from the very early stages of the project, then at that point that should be fairly easy. The checklist is just there as a safeguard, but we’re looking also at the best practices. For example, a ramp you’re looking at a ramp in the built environment. The Americans with Disabilities Act accessibility guidelines called for ramp to have no more than one in 12 radiant. That means the ramp doesn’t go longer than a shorter than 12 foot. For every foot of height it goes up, and that’s a minimum. Most people would, uh, mobility impairments should be able to do that. But what about putting a ramp that is with a gentle slope where it’s one and 15? Maybe it’s not gonna hurt anything. You’re just adding a couple feet to your ramp. Nine times out of 10. You don’t have a space limitation to do that. And suddenly you’ve made it easier for everyone. So thinking. In terms of digital accessibility, we can think about similar issues. For example, color contrast. The guidelines says you have to have a contrast of 4.5 to 1 to be sufficient for people with low vision. How about you? Do you use something like sticks to one? You increase the contrast a little bit, use better colors. Maybe you use a folded font appropriately. And at that point, you’ve you’ve gone beyond checklist and you’ve made the site more usable or usable for everyone.

[00:43:50.10] spk_0:
Yeah, all right. Beyond the standard of beyond the beyond the minimum standard. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:51.16] spk_1:
You make a distinction

[00:43:55.07] spk_0:
between disability and impairment. Could you flush that out, please?

[00:45:05.09] spk_3:
Yeah. I’m coming at it from having worked in the independent living movement for for a number of years, where one of the basic concept is my disability is not the fact that I use a wheelchair. My disability is the fact that you have 15 steps to get into your building. My disability is not that I’m blind, but that you’re not offering alternative format for your menu. Uh, so we’re talking about the difference between a condition and a disability. The impairment is I’m wheelchair user joys blind, Julius deaf. Those are the impairments, the condition. The disability comes into effect when society builds environments that have barriers. So in effect, the disability has not come from within. The disability comes from without. If you build something that has barriers, you disabled me. And that, I think, is a very important distinction to make.

[00:45:34.77] spk_0:
Yeah, very good. Yeah. I could see how this is. Like I said, deeply personal for you. Um, and you think you’ve been thinking about these things for decades? These these concepts, um, and the disabilities that the culture of the society has has built the disabilities that society has built. Um, how do you want to Ah, you want to wrap up, please.

[00:46:44.41] spk_3:
I’d like to leave people with one message about accessibility. It’s a continuum. it’s not a bill. I’ll or in all you know, it’s not because you feel you can’t make everything accessible that you shouldn’t even try. The more you do it to, more accessible things are gonna be and start now, just starting now, make little changes. Your you know your webs that doesn’t use headings. See if you can implement headings. Look at the little things you can do the low hanging fruits, because the more you put in, the easier is gonna be for more people to use your your site or your documents. Whether it’s pdf word whichever Web based resource is, start now and do as much as you can without necessarily worrying about being an expert. That’s done this for 20 years. Um, talk to people about excess abilities, see what they suggest and try to implement in your in your workflow in your website whether you know you’re the executive director of non profit that never really thought about it and start thinking about it. Start the discussion.

[00:46:58.82] spk_0:
Thank you. Next in help Independent accessibility. Consultant. Thank you very much for sharing neck.

[00:47:04.38] spk_3:
Thanks, tony. It’s been a pleasure.

[00:47:06.61] spk_0:
My pleasure. Please stay safe outside Vancouver and thank you very much for being with tony-martignetti. Non profit radio coverage of 20 NTC were sponsored by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial? Thanks a lot for being with us

[00:47:58.98] spk_1:
next week. More from 20 anti sees Smart speakers. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turn, to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot CEO

[00:48:29.56] spk_0:
creative producer is Fair Meyer Family Sure profit other 95% go out

[00:48:48.37] spk_7:
and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day.