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[00:01:53.84] spk_0:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with para magnesia if you gave me the false idea that you missed this week’s show, get off the recruitment merry go round when someone leaves your nonprofit, it’s an opportunity to carefully assess, not a time to jump into a hasty job description and posted on linkedin. Terry Beckman shares her strategies for thoughtfully recruiting, developing and retaining talent. She is founder and Ceo of High Goal on tony steak too 22 NTC. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. It’s a pleasure to welcome Terry Beckman to nonprofit radio she has worked in the nonprofit sector for over 30 years, including five years as an executive director. She understands leadership challenges and has been a strategic advisor and consultant, two executive directors and ceos as they grow their organizations, teams and boards. She and her team at high goal help nonprofit leaders, increased revenue and community impact. The company is at high goal dot c o. That is h I G O L for high impact growth oriented leaders and she’s at terry Beckman. Welcome terry.

[00:01:56.54] spk_1:
Hey Tony, it’s great to be here.

[00:02:22.04] spk_0:
Pleasure to have you on nonprofit radio thank you. Thank you. Let’s uh let’s let’s go right in because I think this is a an area where nonprofits could benefit from some, some advice about taking a breath. So let’s say someone has just given two weeks notice. What do we do,

[00:02:22.84] spk_1:
what do you do? Yeah, it’s nice when you get two weeks notice right? Sometimes

[00:02:28.17] spk_0:
That doesn’t happen or you can make it three days or 24 hours. But I was trying to, I thought I was trying to give like an average

[00:02:42.14] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah or I quit now. I had a client who, she had a team of 10 people and five of them left in one week. Either they were fired or they left on their own and oh

[00:02:46.79] spk_0:
Gosh, okay, well I did, I quit a job with 24 hours notice once

[00:02:50.24] spk_1:
if you get

[00:03:13.24] spk_0:
Mad enough, you know. Yeah. The last job I had, I quit it with 24 hours notice. That was 19. No, it was 2003. I am I certain that I would be a lousy employee. You wouldn’t want to onboard me, you don’t want to retain me off boarding me in the interview. We compress, yeah. With me, you compress the whole compress the whole cycle, you could on board, you could, you

[00:03:18.27] spk_1:
could, you

[00:03:25.14] spk_0:
could interview on board and off board being in like an hour and a half, you know, would put your, put your practice out of work but it would accelerate the cycle at least there’d be a lot of,

[00:03:37.64] spk_1:
yeah, it’s, you know, some of us are meant to be entrepreneurs but you know, most of us are

[00:03:46.14] spk_0:
not. So that’s what I’d be a lousy employee. Yeah, vacation request forms and you know, please could I have christmas day off? All right. All right. So let’s go to this. Uh, let’s go to the reasonable hypothetical. You got two weeks.

[00:03:52.11] spk_1:
Yeah. You have two weeks notice.

[00:03:54.60] spk_0:
What do you want folks

[00:04:53.64] spk_1:
to do? Yeah. Well, the first thing actually, you know, for Executive directors, typically this ends up on their plate in some shape or form, right? For the other 95%. And um, you know, the first thing I advise folks is just to take a deep breath. Like you really don’t have to panic. You don’t have to panic. Um, even though I’m sure whoever has, you know, resigned has a to do list 10 miles long. And of course your biggest fear is that’s going to become your to do list. Right? But that’s a, you know, it’s really, that’s a short term problem. And um, so the first thing really is to take a deep breath. And I think that in a way the very first question is, you know, do you, do you really still need this position? It’s the first question and you know, if that’s not clear, maybe the, you know, maybe the, the job as it was, you know, originally constituted doesn’t make sense anymore for the organization.

[00:05:06.92] spk_0:
So, you know, like, All right. So I’m gonna encapsulate that as don’t stress assess.

[00:05:12.34] spk_1:
There you go. I like that. Yeah, good for

[00:05:32.94] spk_0:
you. If I could think of something wrong with you gotta think of something to write with panic. I’d say don’t panic and do something else, but I couldn’t think of anything wrong with panic, but don’t stress assess maybe the job isn’t needed, but you had someone in the job. So isn’t that doesn’t that de facto mean by the Yeah, well forget by default, doesn’t that the fact don’t mean the job is needed? We had somebody in it.

[00:05:37.64] spk_1:
No, that doesn’t mean that

[00:05:39.24] spk_0:
needed. Yeah.

[00:07:04.94] spk_1:
Yeah. So, you know, I think, I think to answer that question also, it’s nice to just take a breath again and ask yourself, you know, is my vision clear for the organization for the next 12 months? Like where where do I really want to bring the organization in the next 12 months? Where’s the potential where opportunities and then yeah, if that’s clear, then you can really, Really look at how does this position contribute to bringing the organization to that point over the next 12 months, then you’re you’re, you know, you then you’re sort of stepping out of the kind of the panic cycle, right of someone leaving and getting much more strategic about, you know, time and money and skills, right? Which is this great resource in a sense that you have to be able to rehire. Um and and really looking at Yeah. What given these resources, how would, how could, how would I like to best deploy that to really help me leverage where I want to go over the next 12 months. I think that’s ultimately the question and that might be the same job, right? The person that’s leaving and maybe, maybe it’s not, maybe it’s slightly different, Maybe it’s a completely different job. You know, the other thing that can come up is also looking at the orc chart, right? And this is especially true. Wait,

[00:07:27.04] spk_0:
I’m going to stop before we go to the chart. Yeah, we’ll get to the orC chart. Okay, I promise. But so, so you’re suggesting, like, maybe there are things that this this job could encompass that the previous person wasn’t doing, or maybe some of these things are better done elsewhere, and maybe this has been in the back of your mind or

[00:08:56.14] spk_1:
all of those things, or maybe, you know, maybe it hasn’t been in the back of your mind, but, you know, sometimes when, you know, we we stay stuck in patterns with people, right? Like, okay, this is my job, leave me alone and let me do it. And they kind of do it reasonably well. But, you know, that’s what happens. You know, organizations are living are living organisms, really, and so their, you know, their environment is changing, they’re changing the dynamics within the organization, is changing the board is changing all of these things that there’s fluidity to them, especially coming out of the pandemic, right? There’s a tremendous amount of change that’s happened over the last couple of years. Um and so it could very well be that this position was not is not Really best focused and aligned with what your current needs are. You know, and like you said, two could be that this person, you know, maybe they’re doing things that could be even outsourced for less money so that, you know, low value kinds of repeating activities so that, you know, in the next incarnation, they could be focused on activities that are really bringing a lot more value to the organization. Those are, yeah, those are questions you can ask around that as well, you know, I just feel like every time there is someone leaves, it’s a great opportunity just to do a little refresh to see how does this position align with where we’re really headed as an organization.

[00:09:33.84] spk_0:
Alright, so don’t stress, assess, take a breath That that 10 mile long to do list, right? I mean, it can be uh maybe some of it can be delegated. I mean, if it’s, if it’s, if it’s a database person, you know, you’re not going to be, you’re not gonna be querying the database for the next mailing, you’re gonna, right, okay, so take a look at, you know, so you have to have a conversation with the person, understand what is coming, right?

[00:10:30.24] spk_1:
Yes, yes. That’s, you know, that’s certainly another piece of it, right? It’s kind of preparing that person to leave. So there’s the forward looking piece of like, okay, what do we want to do with this position moving forward and then there’s the backward looking piece which is equally important. So knowing what is coming up, what’s the price, you know, what does this person see as a priority? What, you know, what does their to do list look like? You know? And then also, I think naturally leads to the exit interview as well, um where the person has a chance to really honestly share, you know, their insights about the organization and you know what they see the strengths being, where they see the weaknesses. Um if there’s if there are other, you know, people leave organizations for all kinds of reasons, it’s helpful if they could really be honest with you or if you have an HR person about, you know, why, why are they leaving? It’s always it’s always very helpful to know that more clearly

[00:11:08.54] spk_0:
that I still have the orchestra in mind, we’re going back to the heart. But the the exit interview, I mean, that’s isn’t that hard for the ceo to to conduct because he or she may be the reason that the person is leaving or if they’re not the direct reason, you know, if the person is unhappy and they’re unhappy with the organization generally or with their job? I mean, it ultimately feeds up into the ceo you know, what level of honesty are you likely to get when it’s Yeah,

[00:11:28.44] spk_1:
yeah. I think it depends on the circumstance. Um, certainly that can be the case that, you know, especially if there’s tension with the ceo of the executive director, it could be that it might be better suited for someone else in the organization to do the exit interview. So that creates a little bit more safety, um, for the person leaving. That could be the case as

[00:11:40.84] spk_0:
well. Um, Alright, so the organ chart, you want us to look at the Yeah. As we’re not stressing, we’re assessing, Right. Right. What’s, what’s the role of the orchid chart here?

[00:13:18.24] spk_1:
Well, so that, yes, that goes back towards sort of the forward facing again, right, assessing? Um, mm hmm. It’s a similar question. Right. So is the ORC chart, you know, isn’t where we need it to be given, where we want to go in the future, Right. Or does is this an opportunity to tweak the ORC chart a little bit and to, to really think about, you know, if we were ideally organized, what might that look like? And again, I think if you if you’re facing more than one, the person leaving, then obviously there’s more flexibility and kind of really looking at the org chart, but I, I think that’s always worth a look, you know, that’s always worth a look in the assessment, You know, does it make sense if you’re going to be changing the job description, does it make sense that this person reporting up through the right, you know, the right supervisor, for example, through the right thing. Um Yeah, so I think that’s that’s always good to look at. And in the earlier example I gave of the client who lost half her team. Yeah. One thing we talked about it, all 10 of them were reporting to her, which just was too, too many people. So part of what we we did was create a middle layer, right? Where, you know, so she had no more than four people reporting to her and just gave her a little bit of a buffer because that was very

[00:13:19.66] spk_0:
10 direct reports. I’m not sure anybody. I’m not sure anybody should have that.

[00:13:23.86] spk_1:
No, it was too many. So, you know, that was that was a chance to look at her or charts. So it just, it depends, you know, on the circumstance, but it’s a it’s a good thing to have a look at. I think when someone leaves

[00:13:41.24] spk_0:
With, with with 50% of that person’s staff leaving, uh was your client the problem.

[00:15:07.44] spk_1:
Um you know? Yes and no. So one thing that um she took the time to do at that point was to really create their core operating principles. So she, you know, took some time to create five core operating principles and this was super helpful. It was really um gave the made it very clear upfront that this is who we are, and this is how we operate. And it really was very tied into value statements, right? Like this, this is the way we will treat our clients, these are, you know, these are our principles in a sense, in terms of how we work. Um, and because she had team members that were not aligned with those core operating principles, it was definitely part of the problem. And so there was huge tension there. Um, so working on that, you know, and we’re gonna kind of start leaking into the job description, we wanted to put up front in the job description really, and we have done work on this as well as a clear vision and mission for the organization. And then those core operating principles, so that whoever’s, you know, whoever applies that is the very, very first thing you read. Um, and there’s discussion about that in the interview, so that, you know, there’s real alignment when people are coming on board, they really understand that this organization stands for certain things and if you’re not comfortable with that, this isn’t going to be the right place for you,

[00:16:37.94] spk_0:
it’s time for a break. Turn to communications, they have a free webinar coming up crisis communications, you ought to have a plan or at least the outline of a plan and that’s what they’re gonna cover in this free webinar, they will take you step by step through a crisis communications plan or protocol if you like the like the more State department sounding crisis communications you want to be prepared. I don’t even want to go through the possibilities of you know that that a crisis could uh could look like I think we know enough about yeah we know enough about that. You want to be prepared. They’re free webinar is on March 24 naturally if you can’t attend live you get the recording so you sign up they’ll send you the link to the recording and where do you sign up at turn hyphen two dot c o slash webinars. Now back to get off the recruitment merry go round. You you started to talk about, you started to mention you just mentioned that the attributes of the job. How does that I mean they need to be aligned with where you see the organization going to definitely be aligned with your organization. Chart. What what else, what

[00:16:53.94] spk_1:
else? Yeah. Yeah. So you know most job descriptions that I read are elongated to do list. That’s what they would say. Well there’s

[00:17:13.14] spk_0:
the responsibilities and the and the qualifications basically introduction about the about what what the organization does that is the key responsibilities and of course the last one is always and other duties as assigned

[00:17:16.59] spk_1:
by.

[00:17:35.34] spk_0:
You could have just you could just put that you could just have the job, the key, the key responsibilities one bullet everything we tell you to do. You know, you do, you need to do it again, condensing condensing down. But um, and, and then there’s the, and then there’s the skills, skills required, skills optional skills, preferred skills required,

[00:17:41.04] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. And experience. Right. Right. Right.

[00:17:45.27] spk_0:
All right. You don’t care for that.

[00:20:31.24] spk_1:
Well, I wouldn’t say that those things are not important, but they are, we give those things way more important. I think in the hiring process than is actually the case in terms of what will produce, you know, a highly productive, highly engaged person that has the skills you need and we’ll be there for a long time. Like putting all the emphasis on the to do list man and especially post covid that is not the way to go. In my experience. Um, you know, people are really tired of being treated like widgets. I think that’s a big part of what we’re seeing in the great resignation and the great, great resignation is certainly affecting the nonprofit sector as well. Um, and so what I would, I would I suggest is folks, I think you’re gonna have plenty of time to develop to do list. Right? That’s really not a problem. The, the, the, the, the thing that I encourage people to think about job descriptions is it’s a marketing tool. This is a way to attract the right people to your organization that are going to be committed to it that see it as more than a job, right? That see it as something that they they have a role in creating something that is bigger than the sum of its parts essentially bigger than themselves. Um, and this is, you know, I I think people, this is we’re really craving for this now as a culture and a society for deeper meaning in our work again, you know, this is what is really getting reflected in in in folks who are part of this great resignation. And so um, you know, like as I said, we we I like to see people start with mission. Mission vision corp takes some time to develop core principles and then you get into the meat of the particular job description. But I want to I like to see folks right? The job description from the perspective of helping the applicant understand how will this role play a part in helping the organization meet its vision. Like what’s how are they contributing to that? Right. How are they contributing to the bigger picture? A lot of stuff that’s never discussed even. You know, again, we just kind of like hire people like we buy toilet paper. I mean at least that’s what we’ve done in the past. Um, and you know, you just put yourself in a real competitive disadvantage doing that. Um,

[00:20:32.20] spk_0:
I’m not sure which is more scarce sometimes toilet paper or the people or labor. Yeah,

[00:20:38.34] spk_1:
it’s true. Yeah, that’s really true. They’re both really scarce, aren’t they?

[00:20:57.54] spk_0:
Yeah. I’m sure you would say that it’s right. You’re smart to hold out for the right candidate. Not just take somebody who you know is pretty close. You know they came early. I’ve got this job. I got to fill it. You want us to hold out for the right Absolutely. Mission and values. Core principles.

[00:22:26.34] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean in an ideal world the Ceo or executive director is not talking to anybody except the final applicants that rise to that level. You know, honestly, even if you don’t have an HR function, I strongly encourage that you get a hiring buddy. You know hiring partner, someone in the organization that’s going to help you with the hiring process. And um, that can really help weed out all the folks who are not going to be a good fit, right? And and and attract the folks who are going to be a good fit. So um, one thing that’s really nice to do I like doing is having an application that folks fill out in addition to providing you with a resume where you’re asking them questions up front in the application. Um, Again, you want to put all that good juicy stuff up front around your vision mission. The core values. You can put that there in the application and then ask the questions. Um, you know, I would, I would like to see people ask questions around culture and mission honestly. And uh and and this helps to first to know that gives it really telegraphs quickly to the applicants that you’re serious about that. Um

[00:22:38.44] spk_0:
The other like what like what how would you how do you ask questions around culture? Are you committed? Are you committed to or we’re committed to something or you like Yes, check yes or no or or I’m I’m oversimplifying.

[00:24:35.94] spk_1:
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know like again it depends a little bit on the organization and its values. But let me give you some examples of questions that I’ve seen in applications. So one is, you know, what is your commitment to um professional growth as an individual? What’s your commitment to that? Um How do you see, you know how do you see your um yeah. You know your individual growth contributing to the wider organization? Um what is what attracted you to our organization? Why do you want to work for us? Um um what’s you know, how how important is collaboration to you? You know, you can ask questions if you want to have a strong collaborative team, you can ask questions around collaboration. Um how closely have you collaborated with others? Can you give me an example where you were working on a team project? And there was miscommunication around the direction that the project was going. What did you do? How did you handle it? Those kinds of things? So it it causes people to stop and actually have to think right about how they would handle something like that and what’s most important to them this process. I mean first of all, a good number of people will never fill out the application, right? Because they’re not really serious about the job or they’ll fill it out in a very cursory way right there, kind of half fill it out and they’ll give one or two quite, you know, kind of three sentence answers kinds of things or three word answers I should say. Um and so those, it’s just easy that way. It’s like, no, no, no, don’t know. And then folks who are sincerely engaging with the application, they’re serious, right? They’re serious about the job,

[00:25:05.24] spk_0:
right? So, so it serves a screening purpose, but also you’re even just starting to onboard the person you are, you’re showing them what’s important and you’re making sure that they’re aligned with with with, with that culture with. Yeah. All right. So it has a practical purpose as well as uh practical immediate purpose as well as a midterm purpose for for helping screen and on board and on board I should say that’s the that’s the midterm.

[00:25:10.20] spk_1:
It is, it’s the beginning of the on boarding

[00:25:12.07] spk_0:
socialize them to the organization. Yeah, I love that tony

[00:26:36.64] spk_1:
I thought of it that way, but that’s very true. Yeah, yeah. And then I like to see your hiring buddy is handling the applications right? Um if if at all possible. So you want to make sure that you’re on the same page with that person about the culture that you’re trying to create in the organization. And that’s really kind of a culture test. Um you know, based some, you know, basic skills are important, but you want to remember that skills and experience are actually the thing that we can get the fastest, like a person’s motivation and um kind of their, you know, Yeah, their motivations and their preferences. Those things don’t change very quickly, but skills and experience, we really, in a year’s time, you can gain a lot of skills and experience if you’re very focused right? In in in something. So, I mean, you can’t obviously become a brain surgeon in a year if you’re hiring a brain surgeon, but there’s a lot, I mean, given our information age, there’s an awful lot of experience and knowledge that people can gain really pretty quickly. Um of course it’s it’s great if you can get someone who has solid experience that you can benefit from. But I just, I feel like we really give that a little bit too much weight. Um okay,

[00:27:08.24] spk_0:
let’s talk a little about some diversity and equity in the, in the job description. Uh, you know, there’s there’s there’s a focus now on, you know, less traditional education, but, but life experience being enormously valuable and equivalent to formal education? How do we how do we convey that? And also, you know, how do we encourage communities of color, underrepresented folks, you know, to apply for what may look like an all white organization?

[00:30:54.24] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a really, really good question. Really good question. Um I always like to see um an affirmative statement in that regard. Um you know, in in the job advertisement for sure. You can also put it on the application something to the extent that you you know, you your organization really values inclusion and that people from all backgrounds are very welcome to apply. And so this gives essentially um you know, this is a signal to folks from different backgrounds that they’re welcome there, you know, that they’re welcome to apply. So that’s I think one thing that can be very helpful. Um and I think, yeah, you know this this idea that life experience has real value as well is certainly true. Um It depends on the obviously to the position that you’re hiring for. But if you think carefully about the qualities, this is another piece actually. That’s really important. If you think about the qualities that are required when you’re doing the job? Like the the patterning that’s involved when you’re doing the job. For example, does the job require a lot of research? Um Does your job require a lot of follow through or does the job require you to sort of sort through bureaucracy quickly and find a solution to things, right? Which is a little different than follow through. It’s like kind of the other end, does it require that you be fast on your feet and be able to kind of speak to people that may be comfortable speaking to people that you don’t know. Um and and be asked questions that you’re not going to know ahead of time, those kinds of things or is it more of a position where you know, you’re um ensuring um that the organization doesn’t take too many risks that it you know, that it doesn’t fix what’s not broken, you know, like accounting for example, you know, might be more in that realm, you know, these are these are ways of behaving in jobs that are actually um we are wired to to act in different ways just by virtue of who we are and everybody is wired a little bit differently in terms of how they do their job when they’re striving. And I’m sort of giving you some examples of of different kinds of patterning. So um it can be very helpful to also put that in the job description and there are some assessments that also will help that can really help you be able to measure things like that, but just to think carefully through that right? Like and that also will attract, you know, for example, if the job requires a lot of follow through if it’s really a process or repeating process that you’re asking someone to manage. You know, you want to put that kind of language into your advertising and into the, you know, into the job description so that you attract people that have that quality. Um And of course that has nothing to do with education or experience necessarily. It’s more how people are wired to work. If that makes sense. As we become more aware of that. We also tend to get a wider diversity of folks applying because it has nothing to do with, you know, um with any kind of physically born attributes like gender or race or ethnicity. Does that make sense?

[00:31:27.54] spk_0:
Yeah. Um Well, you know, it also raises the question of um salary ranges for for equity. There’s there’s there’s a lot of concerned that not putting a salary in uh salary range um discourages folks or disadvantage is folks who might end up being offered a lower salary because because of their background, you know, because of their their skin color or their background. Yeah, putting a salary range in you like that as well.

[00:33:14.74] spk_1:
I do like to see that. Yeah, I definitely like to see that. I think that that does create um that does create more equity. It’s not, you know, it’s not to say that you’re going to pay everybody the same because you’re not um And pay, Yeah. And pay, you know, pay needs to be very much accorded to value, right? The value that’s being created in the position. Um So I think it’s totally fair game. You know, to pay fundraisers potentially more than you might pay somebody else. Um, you know, that’s, I think totally reasonable, but where the, where the equity thing comes into play. And I have seen this where organizations have not posted salary ranges and they will, they will get an applicant in this honestly, particularly well. I think it happens with race and gender certainly happens with gender. You know, they’ll get somebody. And I remember an executive director saying to me, man, I think she’s, you know, she’s given us writing examples and she’s going to be the communications manager and I can get her for $15,000 less than the guy who left. And he jumped on that. And there was no salary range posted, you know, and now that, you know, especially the nonprofit sector, it takes a long time Right to make up $15,000 cap like that. She’ll have to jump organizations to do it. Um, and if they’re, if they’re bringing the value right, then it’s worth the investment in that person. And it’s worth, it’s worth it really, is it is worth it to be equitable because that means she won’t have to jump right to actually meet the value that she’s creating.

[00:33:29.64] spk_0:
She probably knows that people know if they’re being lowballed too. I think, I think people have a sense of that. And you know, it’s just sometimes,

[00:33:55.14] spk_1:
and sometimes not, you know, especially young people, you know, and I don’t know sometimes, and sometimes I think especially if you’ve been trapped in in low salary bands which you know, I think my people of color and women have been for a long time. You don’t necessarily, you know, it’s just tricky. It’s just really tricky.

[00:33:57.24] spk_0:
You think people don’t generally know then that there

[00:34:14.94] spk_1:
I don’t think that they yeah, that they’re being undervalued. No. And it’s sort of the sense of like I’ve been undervalued for so long that you don’t and on some level you don’t you don’t necessarily, you know, it feels normal I guess.

[00:34:21.84] spk_0:
You know that we have what you started right? The normalizing of of of pay disparity.

[00:34:24.18] spk_1:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean I think it has been normalized

[00:34:34.04] spk_0:
maybe you know, maybe I was projecting my own. I mean I I have a good sense of what I’d be worth, not that I want employment. You know, we’ve talked about that you made that clear. I’m not

[00:34:41.74] spk_1:
right. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But I imagine you do have a good sense of what you’re worth, but I’ve done in the past

[00:34:46.73] spk_0:
But I’m also a white guy who’s 60 years old. So you know, I know what my value is to clients as well as to potential employee employers, but only the former is

[00:34:59.31] spk_1:
feasible.

[00:35:24.64] spk_0:
Alright let’s let’s go to some on boarding besides you know we uh we said that the job description is sort of an entree to on boarding as you’re as you’re exposing, socializing, inculcating people too important in the organization and where it’s headed. But what, what’s more more formal on boarding do you like to see in? Yeah six months is on boarding? six months. Is it six

[00:36:01.93] spk_1:
weeks? Oh man, it’s so nice if it could be six months, you know, if that’s unusual I would say. Um there was a, there was a company in the Research Triangle Park. It was a startup pharma company that has now been brought up by some huge thing. But they were so intentional in their on boarding that they literally, they didn’t hire anybody and give them a job. They completely hired based on cultural aspects that we’ve been talking about and then they spent six months in kind of the university of the, of the company just, you know, just like immersing them in the culture and the values of the organization. And then at the end of six months they evaluated where they should go in terms of a job

[00:36:23.93] spk_0:
that’s, that sounds extraordinary, valuable. Extraordinarily valuable but very not practical

[00:36:26.18] spk_1:
for non small non profit. No, but they created huge value,

[00:36:31.23] spk_0:
huge value.

[00:38:47.92] spk_1:
Absolutely. Yeah. And it was reflected in their market value as well and what they mean just the quality of what the, the work that they were doing. So that’s obviously like way gold standards, we’re not gonna be able to do that and most probably any nonprofit. But um, so it gives you a sense though of really how important it is and that it certainly should be more than just throwing the employee manual down on the desk if you have one, that’s not enough. Right. That is, that is really not enough. First is, do you have an employee manual? Many nonprofits don’t. So that’s kind of a whole nother topic, but it’s, it’s very nice to have your processes, your procedures, you know, your policies written down in some shape or form so that, you know, you’re starting to some assurances around equity and treating people fairly right. That is, that is important. And that is something. So let’s say that you do have that, that’s something to spend some time with the person with. Not just ask them to read it and sign it, but to actually walk through it and talk to them about what does that mean on a day to day basis? What do these things mean for us? The other thing I really love, um, for there to be and you can plan this over several weeks. It doesn’t have to be like all in the first day, but taking the time to really make the introductions for a new employee. Like it’s great if you know what? There are one or two board members who are willing to serve on kind of the on boarding committee, so to speak. You know, maybe this is part of your governance committee, something that they do where they get to meet members of the board and understand that there is a board, there is a governance board and you know, have some personal, a little bit of personal interaction with a couple of board members can be very inspirational right from, you know, then they can talk about what drew them to the organization, why they volunteer their um, meeting volunteers is another one. If your organization has volunteers certainly needing the staff right? Taking the time for that person to spend a few minutes with with um, each staff member is at all feasible. Is it is another really great way for people to start to get comfortable, right? Because then you, you have a name with the email and that kind of thing.

[00:40:44.51] spk_0:
It’s time for Tony’s take two, it’s time to register for 22 N. T. C. You heard AMY sample ward talk about the conference last week on the show. I’m not sure, I’m not sure that the biggest feature is 180 Workshops that you’ll get the video links to, you know, that you can, that you can, if you can consume that much. I think she said the record was 50 some last year that that somebody watched. I’m not sure that’s, I’m not sure that’s the biggest feature that’s big, you know, 180 different topics to choose from. All smart speakers. You know, that’s why this is the only conference that I affiliate with On nonprofit radio I’ll be capturing 25 or 30 different interviews from the conference speakers. But you know, it’s more the it’s the vibe. It’s the the inclusivity, the planning that they do that make, it’s not just their planning because you could do planning and it could still suck but it’s a planning that makes it fun. It’s a it’s a lively place. I’m looking forward to next year’s which will be back in person. But even virtual they put a lot of thought they’re very intentional about the feel the vibe of non profit technology conference. So I recommend it March 23 – 25. You register at 10:10.org if you want to see what people are talking about. Of course there’s the hashtag 22 N. T. C. I recommend it. I hope you’ll be there. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time

[00:40:48.45] spk_1:
for get

[00:41:11.11] spk_0:
off the recruitment merry, go round with terry Beckman and probably better done one on one or maybe two on one and this is the staff. Okay, everybody introduce yourself to the new employee. Okay, new employee, tell us about yourself. Okay everybody sign off now you know, go back it’s all done in an hour. You know, you don’t get to know, you don’t get to know folks that way, especially in a in a virtual workspace.

[00:41:16.41] spk_1:
Especially in a virtual workspace. Right?

[00:41:18.72] spk_0:
But even so you know, you want one on one. You want one on one or maybe two on one.

[00:41:23.35] spk_1:
Yeah, we’re starting to build relationships, right? Yeah.

[00:41:27.78] spk_0:
You live what, what, what do you have family? What? You know what movies? You know, what do you love music? You know, what do you do when you’re not with us? Yeah.

[00:41:38.61] spk_1:
All of that. Yeah. But what about the idea of real exchange?

[00:41:42.07] spk_0:
I’m sorry, what

[00:41:42.97] spk_1:
I said there can be a real exchange.

[00:41:54.11] spk_0:
Yeah, for sure. Right? Spend an hour getting to know somebody. Yeah. Um what about the idea of like an onboarding buddy? Maybe not so much a mentor, but somebody that, so I have one person I can ask. How do we do that? Well how do I get access to the shared documents? You know, I feel stupid. But you know, I can’t get the wifi to work on my company laptop or you know, whatever.

[00:42:06.50] spk_1:
Right? Yeah. Somebody that can point you point the new person in the right direction.

[00:42:10.62] spk_0:
Yes,

[00:42:37.80] spk_1:
I was, that was the next thing I was gonna say is to have like an an on boarding buddy who’s who’s willing to do that. And that can be a really nice function that can rotate right around the organization and anybody at any level can do that. Right? So it’s a, it’s a really nice way also of just kind of leveling the field in a way that everybody can have a role in in bringing on new people, which is really, you know, very nice and, and helps, I think in, in just continuing to create that, the stronger bonds across your team,

[00:42:46.20] spk_0:
anything else we should be talking about onboarding before we move to keeping people.

[00:44:31.69] spk_1:
Um, I would say that that may be the most important thing is to have, you know, think through the on boarding process, I think we’ve given folks some really good ideas, um, but to think through it and write it down so that it becomes an actual process in your process, you know, um and then it’ll then it’s much more likely to actually get done, so right down the steps, the timing on it, how long the onboarding process will last, Maybe it’s a couple of weeks, you know, and then the cadence of the different things like every couple of days or whatever. There are different meetings that this person is exposed to. Um the last piece probably tony that I would say and, and this bleeds into the next topic is um, with their supervisor to set some really clear goals for their 1st 90 days, so that, you know, there’s no misunderstanding the employee knows where to focus and um there’s no miscommunication that the supervisor, well you may be disappointed, but there’s a much higher chance of success if you’re both on the same page around what you, you know, what, what do you expect from this person in their 1st 90 days and then at 90 days, talk about it, right? So, You know, and it’s, it’s really nice actually to even have little check ins right? You say even 30 days around those goals, every you know, so that if the person is having trouble or they’re not quite focused, right? Or they have questions around those goals, they have a chance to ask you and that can just provide, you know, a really smooth um kind of, you’re really kind of greasing the skids for that person’s success coming

[00:44:44.19] spk_0:
in. It’s also scheduled devoted time with the, with the new supervisor, which should be at least monthly, I would say. Maybe maybe every other week.

[00:45:16.79] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, it depends. I think a little on your structure and hopefully if you’re a manager, you have a schedule of one on ones not, you know, I shouldn’t assume that because I’m always surprised that people are not meeting one on one with people that report to them, but I am, this is, I’m assuming a little bit that you have a schedule for doing that right? Maybe it’s every other week. Um yeah, I like that cadence myself. Um, but this, this would be um kind of extra meetings or maybe a little bit longer of a meeting monthly to really focus in on those goals.

[00:45:41.09] spk_0:
Um Yeah, very good, excellent advice. Um seeing the onboarding and retaining on boarding. Okay. We started to bleed into uh keeping, yeah, keeping your good folks.

[00:47:02.18] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great topic. I think, you know, keeping good people is all about your relationship with them, you know, um, and their alignment with your vision of where you want to take the organization. So, you know, if you, if you’re clear about the vision and you know, even if you’re not the executive director and you’re the supervisor, you know, you still need to have a vision for your team, right? Even if somebody else is setting the bigger vision, you want to have a vision for your team. Um, and you know, depending on what it is, maybe it’s, you know, we’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna have, you know, we’re, we have, we have great customer client satisfaction, Right? And we respond to clients, we want to consistently respond to clients within 24 hours or you know, whatever it is. You know, if you, you have kind of a vision and standards for your team, that’s really important to develop in your own mind and then to be able to share that clearly right with your team. Um, and then it’s, it’s all about developing and supporting the people that are working for you to meet those bigger goals. Um, and I think that those are, that is why one on one meetings are important so that you really understand what it is. They need to be successful in meeting the goals. Um, and and being able to get them the resources they need to do that work

[00:47:19.18] spk_0:
resources including professional development budget, right?

[00:47:22.71] spk_1:
You

[00:47:23.41] spk_0:
want to sponsor? You want to be supporting your folks for classes conferences. I don’t know, certifications.

[00:48:10.47] spk_1:
So they keep learning. Yeah. And, and understanding to what are their goals? What are their professional development goals? You know, maybe would they do they aspire to become a manager one day or an executive director one day, um, and, and encouraging that? Right? So that we’re not, you know, then we’re then we’re actually getting off the merry go round, right, when we were starting to develop actually, a pipeline of folks within the organization that want to grow up in the organization. That, you know, want to have bigger roles and um, creating a pathway for them to be able to do that, you know, is that’s really the ultimate,

[00:48:45.27] spk_0:
it’s a, it’s investment in the, in the person. It shows that there’s promise, uh, there’s a future for the person in the organization, make, you know, these things all make it less likely that they’ll leave. I mean, they may still leave, but if they, if they, if they feel supported, they see a future in the organization for them for their own growth, both in responsibility and salary. You know, they’re, they’re less likely to leave will be explicit, you know, you want to, you want to lay that out. Not when they, when they say, you know, then they give the two weeks notice you you know right at the secret plan but

[00:48:53.62] spk_1:
you don’t know the secret.

[00:49:05.97] spk_0:
Yeah there’s a growth development plan. You’re gonna miss out on all this. Yeah right. That’s not the time. Um At what point maybe maybe I’m you know you’re stuck with a lackluster host. I’m sorry maybe this is going back to on boarding. But

[00:49:09.97] spk_1:
that’s the point

[00:49:10.94] spk_0:
at what point should you or should should there be should there be a formal point at which we say yes, this relationship is working? No, this relationship is not working. Yeah. That should that should there be a formal like I think it’s a probationary period or something like that.

[00:51:12.36] spk_1:
Yeah, that’s a good question. That is a really good question. And I have seen Organisations have formal like a 90 day, You know that’s it is a little bit implied in that, right? So you’re setting the expectations for this is what we expect in 90 days. Yeah. Yeah. And you can be even more explicit and you can say, you know this is this is a trial in a sense. We’re gonna, for both of us we’re gonna we’re gonna see how this goes in 90 days and then we’ll evaluate, I mean you’re kind of doing that right? Anyway um you know, so there’s a couple of questions that kind of come to my mind is from that like so what if they’re not meeting, You know what if they’re not meeting their goals in 90 days and I think, you know, if if you’ve been meeting with them monthly and you’ve been talking about it and you’re giving them the support they need, but you’re sort of sensing like, mm mm mm mm they’re not able to do this like they’re not fully engaged or they’re distracted for some reason. You know, it’s whatever is going on. Um, you know, you’re, what’s really good is you’re having the opportunity to regularly have open honest conversations about it. And then when you get to the 90 days, if there’s really some clear gaps you know, I think that’s an opportunity for, um, you know, a more honest conversation that maybe, you know, maybe this isn’t the right fit. Um, and, and they may, They probably will also sense that, right. They may sense that also at 90 days, maybe this isn’t really the right fit for me. Um,

[00:51:16.76] spk_0:
plead where they plead though, I can do better. Give me another 90 days. I I swear I can do better

[00:51:22.14] spk_1:
without

[00:51:37.66] spk_0:
Any, without any concrete reason why they didn’t, like, you know, if there was illness, you know, there was something in the family, it was a crisis, you know, putting that aside, there was no real reason why they didn’t they didn’t measure up in the 90 days, they’re pleading for another 90, right? Well, I need the job. I can do it

[00:53:41.55] spk_1:
Right? I think another 90 is probably too long. You know, if you were really in that situation because that then puts you at six months with somebody who may not work out. Um of course it depends on the situation and you’ll want at that point, you know, you’ll want to be talking to other professionals about that situation, right? So if you have an HR person in your team, you want to be talking to them. Um if you don’t have an HR person, you want to be talking to the executive director um the best um executive directors honestly, or the best organizations have very solid relationships with employment attorneys so that, you know what the laws are in your state doesn’t mean that you have to do anything in particular necessarily. But if you do move towards potentially terminating somebody, you wanna, you know, you want to know what, what the rules of the road around that are right before you enter into those waters. That is very important. Um for especially for um this is also, you know, a lesson that is a very painful one for people to learn. You know, if you’re if you’re hiring at a senior level, right? So if you’re aboard hiring an executive director or if you have like a, you know, a chief operating officer or Chief HR marketing marketing person, yeah, Director of Development, anybody at that level. You know, when they come on, you’re gonna want to have um, agreements around um, you know, non um, that they’re not going to speak badly about the organization when they leave and that the, and that they’re not going to take sensitive information out of the organization, essentially. So that should be part of the agreement that they signed when they’re hired. Um,

[00:53:47.22] spk_0:
because

[00:53:48.75] spk_1:
when they leave and they’re unhappy, that inevitably happen. Well, not inevitably, but that can often happen that they’re kind of trashing the organization. They’re going to donors saying bad things like you want all of that to be an agreement up front that they are not allowed to do that. And it’s a binding legal agreement that you can have a lawyer read a letter if they start doing stuff

[00:54:10.74] spk_0:
like that. Especially I haven’t thought about that. But especially talking to donors, right? Maybe talking to board

[00:54:19.54] spk_1:
members. Yes. Yes.

[00:54:24.64] spk_0:
I guess volunteers could, you know, volunteers could be just as serious. Yeah, Bad mouthing.

[00:55:47.54] spk_1:
Bad mouth generally no bad mouthing. Like, and it’s mutual. So the organization doesn’t bad mouth the employee that’s leaving and the employee doesn’t bad mouth the organization, it goes both ways. Um, so that’s, yeah, that’s important to standardize, especially when you’re hiring at a higher level, you know, for, for other levels. It may be not less necessary. I mean, you can just, you have to sort of evaluate that right across the organizational structure. Um, but you still obviously, you want to, you know, be aware of what the laws are in your state and um guidance from an attorney around how to handle terminations if it comes to that. But I think, you know, if, and again it really so depends on the situation, but if you get to 90 days and you feel like this isn’t really a good fit, you know? Um I would, you know, and somebody is wanting more time and you know, so you have to use your judgment around that too, right? Do I want to give them another month? I wouldn’t go more than 30 days, though right before you seriously evaluate again and you would want to be very clear about what you’d want to see change right in that period of time. And if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t change, then, you know, then it’s probably time to um to let them go. Um But you know,

[00:55:49.84] spk_0:
well then we’re back where we started with uh

[00:55:52.94] spk_1:
yeah, we

[00:55:53.67] spk_0:
are back where we started. Don’t don’t don’t stress assess.

[00:56:30.43] spk_1:
Yes. Yeah. And hopefully, hopefully you’ve gone through a process where, you know, you developed a pretty strong pool of applicants, so maybe some of them are around um still, but if not, then you go through the process again. Um I, you know, I like the the adage hire slow fire fast. Um I just I think that that’s wise, you know, to take your time to get the right people and if it gets to a point where it’s not the right person, then you make that decision quickly.

[00:56:58.63] spk_0:
You also have to put ego aside that you know, maybe you that that it appears you made a bad hire if the person goes after three months or four months, you know, that that reflects that poorly on on the ceo, on the hiring buddy, if there was, you know, whoever was involved in the process of board members involved, that we all made a bad choice, well, okay, maybe we did, but but maybe we didn’t, you know, remember and in the interviews and the application of the person looked like the right person. So we have to put ego aside I guess. Yeah,

[00:57:59.63] spk_1:
very much so, you know, and I think any time that someone either voluntarily or involuntarily leaves the organization, you know, it’s never like one person’s fault, so to speak, you know, because there’s just too many interactions and too many. It’s just complicated, right? There’s way too much that goes into that mix. But I think it’s also really helpful when something, you know, like that happens, especially if it’s somewhat unexpected is to evaluate, you know, and especially if it was like a 90 day point evaluate. Well, let’s look at our process, you know, what’s missing, what went well, what did we miss, what would we do different, you know, what would we want to do differently and and do that as a team. Um, and I can feel, you know, I think as a leader it can feel scary to do that because you sort of, you know it feels like you’re being somewhat vulnerable to talk

[00:58:02.35] spk_0:
about what

[00:58:03.47] spk_1:
didn’t work.

[00:58:16.32] spk_0:
It’s introspective thought, you know, what what did we do wrong? What could we do better? What maybe some of my you know, maybe my contributions weren’t, maybe the goals were not Uh maybe the 90 day goals were not fair or although clear, I would hope that you’re clear that you would hope that you would figure that out in the 90 days and assess, you know? Yeah. Yeah, introspection is is a big challenge. It’s hard.

[00:58:31.44] spk_1:
Yeah. But it’s so good.

[00:58:33.67] spk_0:
It is vulnerable, it makes you

[00:59:07.02] spk_1:
Vulners, you’re right. It does make you vulnerable. It doesn’t take long. That’s the other thing. I mean you can really do a good evaluation in 30 or 45 minutes if that’s what you’re focused on with your team. And the insights from it are just invaluable. You know, just invaluable and this, you know, you want to create an environment where this is not about blaming people. It’s totally not about that, it’s really about looking at the process and what could we have done better. Not tell you, I mean that’s what you get out of that is worth. You know, tens of thousands of dollars of some consultant telling you it really is.

[00:59:33.32] spk_0:
Okay, okay, so leave us with some closing thoughts uh terry. What about the process, overall importance of, of assessment, etcetera. You know, leave us, we just fired somebody, you know, so leave us leave us in an uplift. We just fired somebody. So leave us in an uplifting spot.

[01:00:59.81] spk_1:
Okay. Yeah, So you just fired somebody that’s, oh man, it’s always you and I you and I know it’s a tough, tough place to be in. Um but I think um you know, if you’ve gotten to the point where you’ve had to to take that kind of action, then one door closes and another always opens, always always opens and what you’re looking for. Like with actually every single thing that we talked about today, you’re really looking at how can you unleash the potential of your organization, right? How can you unleash the potential of your vision, That’s what you’re doing, that’s what all of this is about, right? It’s it’s taking methodical intentional steps to unleash that potential and sometimes letting somebody go, it actually unleashes their potential to because they may honestly be in the wrong position, right? Like if it’s not working for you for the organization, it probably isn’t working for them either if they’re honest about it. Um So it’s all good. You know, I think the key is to be is to not panic to not react to really be intentional and to be thinking about some of these questions that you know, we’ve come up with Tony and you know, how how can you make the organization the best that it can be and really just get a, you know, a team that is working together like a fine oiled machine.

[01:01:19.51] spk_0:
Terry Beckman outstanding. Thank you. The company high goal H I G O L. Remember high impact growth oriented leaders, high gold dot C. O. And terry is at Terry Beckman. That’s Terri with an I and one are, thank you very much. Terry.

[01:01:20.80] spk_1:
Terrific. Thank you tony It’s such a pleasure to be with you today.

[01:02:19.81] spk_0:
Thank you. Thanks for sharing your good ideas. Thank you very much. Next week. I’m working diligently on that. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. Responsive by turning to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot C o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the The other 95 go out and be great.