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Oppcoll hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host uh feels so good to be back in the studio and i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with pro doth ecosystem if you tried to infect me with the idea that you missed today’s show big impact let’s learn the best ideas from the brightest leaders in social change vivian hoexter is co author of the book big impact, and she shares lessons and reflections from interviews for her book. Attorneys take two my number one eighteen ntcdinosaur away we’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna may slash pursuant radio bye weinger cpas guiding you beyond the numbers weinger cps dot com and by tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna em a slash tony tell us, oh, it feels so good to be back in the studio and to have a guest in the studio, she’s vivian hoexter she said, in your life, it’s unbelievable she’s right here during extra she’s, co author with linda hartley of the book big impact insights. And strategies from america’s non-profit leaders she’s a principal also with linda hartley of h two growth strategies. I’m gonna ask her if she does anything without linda hartley on if they’re married or they’re married to each other’s brothers or something, i don’t know. I’m also talking about this company name. I think you blew it, but we’ll get to that. So what do vivian and linda do in h to growth strategies? They advise non-profits and foundations in strategies, effective marketing and increasing revenues both earned and contributed. She also coaches executives. She was ceo of gilda’s club worldwide. No, them the red doors. Everybody knows them. They are at h two growth strategies. Dot com. And she is at the hoexter. Welcome, vivian hoexter. Thank you, tony it’s. Great to be here to pleasure. Pleasure to have you in the studio. Um, this book you you interviewed lots of people. We did hominy hominy non-profit leaders. Did you seek out near it? Turned out to be nearly fifty. Fifty. Okay, but the cover only has twenty one pictures. This is at the top twenty one of the fifty. Those air. The twenty one who are featured those eyes that how it works. Okay. Those are the ones i read about that air featured. Okay through. But then you had quotes from another thirty nine that’s that’s. Right. Ok, over how many years you you talk to these people. So the process from start to finish took us about two years. Yeah, the hole in the process of interviewing and then writing and editing and publishing the book. Now, how do we know that you’ve got the best fifty non-profit minds? How did you select out of the thousands that are available? Really? Well, i have to say it’s a highly was a highly subjective list. Your friends. Well, the ones that would meet you on your timetable. In some cases, we knew the leaders before we approach them. But that was a really not very many of them did we know. So we really wanted to get a kind of a sampling of folks from the different, if you will, the verticals in the nonprofit sector. Because if you look for books on leadership, you find hundreds of corporate books, but not very many non-profit books. And when we looked for non-profit books on leadership, we found one for christian leaders, one for jewish leaders, one for museum directors but not one for leaders who who work in any number of health, the environment, education. So we really trying to get a broad sample of missions on dh and segments? Okay, so you thought through this project we did, you know, this is not just slapdash. No. Okay, throwing together. All right, so the book is worthwhile. All right? Make sure we got the brightest minds were going to talking for an hour. I don’t want to be talking about advice from lackluster, you know, lackluster leaders. We we wouldn’t really wouldn’t dream. I don’t have any poor performers. No, no, no, no. Okay. Okay. Um, now you you mentioned before we went on air. You’re back in your neighbourhood. This is the west seventies. Very comfortable to you. Yes. Yes. I love for fifteen years. A life experiences, right? Yes. Within a few blocks. Yes. Yes. Like a trip down memory lane. All right. You said you said married, you say born know you weren’t born here? No. Married? No, no. Married. Oh, signore e i was single. And then i was married for the first. Time. And then i was divorced all within a few blocks of oil within a few blocks from here with studio in west seventy second street. Alright, cool. Any places? Look familiar. The bank on the corner chase bank that’s where you had to divide your accounts, it’s. Right. You gotta go in there and get them to separate your mind’s. A nice that’s, a that’s. A lovely memory. Okay. Any other? Any good places? Oh, there’s. Some wonderful shops on columbus avenue. Top shoes still here? Oh, yes. Here’s to shop. I used to shop it. Tip top there. Good. Good place to share. Next-gen shoe store. What are they? Are, by the way? Yes, i have a couple of shoes on the shoes of the boots i’m wearing today. The rain boots i’m wearing today. Tiptop shoes shoutout to them. All right. So that’s free free media for them. All right, let’s, go back to your book. So you break it down into like you have. You have a lot of interviews and you break it down into subjects. And then you and you and linda comment on, you know, like leadership and getting your house in order. And being persistent. It’s okay, so, uh, i was certainly going to give you a chance to talk about what what’s tops for you. Like what stands out for you, but i come first. Absolutely. Eyes your show. Thank you. Usually i have to say that, you know, i have to remind guests i appreciate you’re acknowledging that without prompting leadership. I like talking about that ship leadership section. Um, you get some advice from ah, a few people have been on the show. Actually, henry tim’s has has been on the show. I’m working on getting him back as he has a new book. You know it as new power. Yes. Because if i’m going to figure out what new power is, yes. And here how you can embrace it, own it. So we’re working on getting henry times, of course. He’s the i don’t know if it’s ceo whatever. Executive director of ninety second street y. So he says he wants you to build your your your your emotional intelligence as a part of leadership. Talk a little about being that humanists. Yeah. So? So you asked me what was what stood out for us or you said you were going to let me know about it. Comes if you if you can blend them together. That’s very talented. Right? So, in fact, the thing i don’t bother asking you later, the emotional intelligence of the leaders we spoke to was really, really striking tow us really striking. So and henry tim’s, i mean, almost to a person. And even if they admitted to not having been so emotionally intelligent when they were younger, they really, really focused on becoming that. And they clearly were they admitted when they were wrong, they were able to turn tragedy into something greater. They they were working on diversity, equity and inclusion, even if it was uncomfortable if they were white males, for example. Eso so they really they really exhibit kind of the into a great degree. The characteristics that you would want in a person you worked for. Yeah. Admitting you’re wrong. Yes. A bunch of people have touched on that. Yes, being having uncomfortable conversations. Ah, sharing with staff when you’re not confident in something. Yes. You know, thing you want to flush out about. Why that makes you a good leader. Well, i think it’s it makes you a good leader in the twenty first entry? I don’t think it probably did in the past when leadership was about command and control and right, so but but in the twenty first century where we’re now yeah, thiss current yeah, where information is so readily available to everyone. Ah, it’s really important to be honest and vulnerable with your staff because they’re they’re probably going to find out anyway, if you yeah, no, i’m sorry. I raised my she’s. So, like, i wanted to say the s o r scared her by raising my hand. Yeah. People think that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. I think it’s actually sign of strength. Yeah. It’s a sign of confidence that you are willing to be vulnerable in front of staff and audience. Whatever, right, but that’s because you’re a modern man. Thank you. All right. And that we got to go for a break. You believe that? All right, hold that thought were gonna come back to that. That immediate thought we’d take a break. You’re tuned to non-profit radio. Tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst. Of fund-raising insights. Tony’s guests are expert, really, all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder, am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com. Now, let’s, go back to vivian hoexter. All right, so what was the last thing you said? It was a very poignant sentence. You said that? I said you’re that’s because you’re a modern man. That was it. Yes. That’s. Right. That’s, right. Thank you for refreshing my recollection. Yes. Okay. We’ll come back to that point a few times. Um, yeah, no, but i think vulnerability is a very good sign of confidence and strong leadership. I mean, in front of an audience or your staff or whatever, you know, it’s. A sign of strength and confidence, i think. Right? Right. And i think so too. And so do i. The leaders in the book, i would say not everybody believes that, right? And in an hour analysis, this is one of the things that really is a sign of emotional intelligence and of being a great leader for the modern, for the modern non-profit and i would argue corporate era. Okay. Excellent. And self awareness, too, i guess. That’s all rats wrapped up. Really in every yes, right? Yes, i do. I do. Okay. Um, so we’ll see if it’s, uh, exploring there’s some, uh, there’s. Some thoughts. About exploring life and work you you make some points about be an explorer there there’s some advice in the book about not following the path that others follow right out of college, you know, follow your own path, but but you and linda also have some commentary on being an explorer in life and work. Yes, so i think a lot of a number of our leaders said you should really make sure that when you’re in your twenties, you get out of the environment in which you grew up and go somewhere else. So if you are not able to go overseas, go to another state. If you live in the north, go to the south if you live in the south, go to the north because the experience of living with and working in another culture really is a huge benefit to developing that self awareness, the cultural awareness that is so important to being a leader in the global economy. How does this help you? I’m not. I’m not opposed to the idea, although i’d rather see more people from the south coming north than me from the north going south, but i know how is this how this help me, um, expand my my leadership capacity. So when one of the traits of leadership is to be able to put yourself in the other shoes, at least i think so. And if you take it, if you take yourself out of the environment that you’re most comfortable in that you grew up in and put yourself elsewhere physically, right, you’re going to be with people, even in the u s if you move from the south to the north, who are different from you, who think differently dressed differently, have different pastimes, and certainly if you go abroad, you’re going to be in a completely other culture. So i worked for eight years for f s intercultural program, american field service school, yes, so so i have a really bias on this one. I’ll admit that i that i think that the people who are best able to deal with others and persuade them inspire them, lead them lead change with them are those who have really gotten out of their comfort zones when they were early in their careers and go on elsewhere to live in work so they know how that feels to be uncomfortable. So so that encouraging others to do it in your work let’s test something that we haven’t done. Let’s try something different. I wanted we’re gonna explore a program that we have done, etcetera. You know what? That vulnerable vulnerability. You know what that feels like? Yes, yes, because you’ve lived it correct. You live that incredible discomfort of being a stranger in a foreign land. Someone else who’s been a guest on this show that you, uh you profile on dh interview is are you finger? We love our yes, i do too. Ceo of do something dot or ge i’ll take over from nancy lublin. And then now now also, of course, they’ve spun off t m i and she’s isn’t she the ceo of tm? No, no she’s only do something you know. She’s ceo seo of cm ilsen ceo and chief old person. Old person. Okay. Okay of both. Yeah, so she she admonishes may be too strong. I don’t know. She encourages mentor ship finding a mentor. Yes, finding a mentor when you’re getting started and being a mentor when you’re in the ceo ranks or as you’re working your way up oppcoll what’s what’s the value to the leader let go because we’re looking at from leadership perspective what’s the value to mentoring the value is number one you’re reminded where you came from and if you’re supervising younger employees, which you almost certainly are that it helps you to be helping someone who’s trying to get a job somewhere, it helps you to remember what it was like mom or empathy on dh on it also, honestly, to be a mentor feels good. It’s it’s ah it’s a way of passing the torch not passing the torch. Exactly it’s a way of paying it forward, if you will. On really making sure that the next generation of leaders has the same has has the benefit of your wisdom while you’re still alive. Yeah, yeah. All right. How about for people who are younger, what’s the value of having a mentor. So it really? You know, parents often tell their kids what not to do because they did it, and we’re sorry to do it. So you have to be a little careful. I think because you want to help young people avoid some of the mistakes that you made when you were early in your career, recognizing that they’re going to have to make some themselves. You can’t prevent them from making some, but if you can point the way and if you can help them build their networks, which we all know mean, networks are just critic critical for growing up. So if you want, if you want to continue in your career, you need tohave ah, robust professional network. Yes, yes, and a strong and powerful mentor who has lots of relationships from having been in the field for a long time. And if that person is generous and willing to share some of those relationships with you and introduce you to people that’s, one of the greatest value used in mentor ship should you pursue a mentor? So now i’m looking at it from the person younger in there non-profit career who’s in your organization or no, you should really go outside it’s kind of hard to open up to somebody because they’d be senior to you, right? That’s? That seems a little counterproductive. Yeah, i think it. You really have. Tio. If you want an authentic mentor relationship, you have to look outside organization. Um, any what? Would you like to say now that now’s your chance now, it’s all you saw your chance, spotlight is on you. But leadership, anything you want to you want to add about leadership that i didn’t didn’t strike me? No, i think what i want to do is talk a little bit about what happened after we did the interviews, right? Because we had all of this material, right? And from having talked to nearly fifty people and there’s a fifty or nearly fifty, now you’re hitting on your head now is forty seven, but nearly fifty sounds, you know, more rounder, right? Yeah, i know, but originally we sent fifty no it’s, not fifty it’s forty six, forty seven, forty seven near severely restructure precision. Provoc absolutely, you read twenty one profiles in the book, which is which are excellent, and then you’ll get you’ll get quotes from an additional um however many eighteen, twenty, twenty, twenty eight people. Oh, that would be forty, maybe forty nine, twenty six people. All right, let’s. Keep it straight on non-profit radio. Yeah, absolutely. Don’t let the clothes confuse you. No. Nor the guest either. Okay, so the so we had all this material, this wonderful material, and we and we knew the book was about leadership because that’s what we set out, that the questions that we asked really were about leadership, but we thought, oh, go boy, the book has to be about something mohr than just leadership. And so what we discovered is that the book is really about the good news social change, it’s about the how to make lasting positive social change because many of the leaders we spoke with are actually doing that every day, making positive social change, often without a lot of fanfare, because it’s the non-profit sector and no one has the money, the advertising budget that a coca cola or pepsi has on dso. So we wanted to do a couple things. We wanted people to recognize that in a time when there’s lots of not so good stuff happening, that there actually is a lot of a lot of good stuff happening. We wanted more people to know about that good stuff. Ah, and we wanted people to be able tto learn from the steps that these leaders outlined for us that became the principles the seven principles that bracket the book. We wanted people to be able to learn from that to make change in their own communities, let you know. I mean, if if they’re working in their own communities, it could be their states, their countries. But the idea is that there’s practical knowledge to be gained here as well as sort of principals. And what have you? Yeah, no. And, you know, i like to details. I mean, that’s. Why? You know, like, you know, like, find a mentor. Yes. You mentor? Yes. No. Up your game in. Ah, in emotional intelligence, etcetera. Yeah. All right. Um, could we, uh i’d like to ah, talk about getting your house in order in your own organization, upto up to where it should be, right? Principle number two yeah, why don’t you? Why don’t you overviewing that on dh? Why it’s important to walk the walk? And and then, you know, i’ll ask you, i ask you something that stuck out for me chur so what? What our leaders told us and we really pretty much knew this already. So it was great to have all these leaders saying it is that if your organization is really functional and and a good place to work in all the dimensions of what that means, then it’s going to be much easier for you, for your organization to be innovative and to have employees who stay in the organization rather than move on so quickly. Eso you’ll get good, organise a, you’ll get good institutional memory and it’ll just be easier to make the change that that you wish to make. That to achieve your mission, it’ll be easier and more effective. Ah, so and again, you know, getting your own house in order, it means a lot of things, right? So we have a sort of a selective list. You could list many, many, many things that a leader should do to make sure that his or her house is in order. But some of them include, and this is this is kind of dahna a stereotype recruit talented, passionate employees. Ah, and then retain them. Ah, make sure you have a number two. Even if that person is not the obvious successor to you. Ah, those kinds of things, right. So in the kind of the human resource is sphere, right? We thought these were really, really important. Make sure that that you’re working on diversity, equity and inclusion. This is a ah something that all of our leaders are focused on on as a routine part of there. There there work it’s, not sam paine, no campaign for divers. So it’s just ongoing, always evolving it’s always part of their hiring and retaining. Yes, this is another thing that really struck us about about what the leaders were saying is that they had you had to start somewhere when if you’re working on diversity, equity and inclusion, and usually you had to start at the top, you know the ceo to be the one to be the catalyst for it. But then you you could never stop. Ah, you and you had to keep addressing it from different angles and different levels of the organization, and that was something of a surprise to us. One of the people suggest hiring people that are smarter than you and including for your board, and he says, i don’t remember who it is but he says everybody around him is smarter than him and again, including board again, you know, that’s that goes back to vulnerability. I mean, obviously these things overlap, but, you know, getting talented people who fill gaps, that of knowledge that you and the institution don’t have. Yes, it takes a lot of humility t be able to really do that, you know, everybody says, i have to say it, but it is much harder to do in practice. You really have to be vulnerable and humble to be able to admit that you don’t have all the skills and you certainly don’t have a lock on the intelligence. Ah, and that seems to be it seemed to us to us to be a theme you mentioned the hiring and terror this one i do know came from tara berry, ceo of national costume. Kartik latto court appointed special advocates, and it was interesting, very poignant that she herself was a foster child. I did some training for a casa in aa in albuquerque, new mexico, someplace many years ago. It’s, um, plan giving training. She likes the idea of having a siri’s of interviews to demonstrate a candidate’s commitment. We thought that was brilliant. You’re dragging them through? Yeah, yeah. You know, you keep showing up. If you have the patience for this you can tolerate. Our work? Yes, yes. I thought that was really, really interesting. It’s, part of the hyre slowly fire quickly, right? But it takes hyre slowly to a whole new level right where that you should you keep creating excuses for the person to come back? Of course, it’s of course you planned it out, right? But they come and they talk to one person and then they come back and they get a tour, and then they come back and they talked to another person. Then they come back and talk to a volunteer. Or or and and the idea is that if they and particularly the young person, that if they have the patients to stay with you through a process that takes a couple of months, right? Oh, interesting. Yeah, there are a few weeks a few months that that this that this could really weed out some of the young people who just need a job and don’t have any interest in your mission and really have no interest in the nonprofit sector. They’ll just they’ll just drop it that i can’t tolerate that right’s takes too long. Okay, um, somebody talks about it. May have been you and linda autonomy in decision making, giving employees autonomy authority to make decisions. So so that’s another s o u you know, now you’ve got the talented, passionate employees right? And you want to keep them on. One of the best ways to keep them is to give them autonomy and shale. Pollack how sarrantonio who runs the bank street college of education was most articulate. I thought about this idea he talks about having been a a noces stint principal in a high school in queens doesn’t really matter on dh his boss was really, really clear with him about where they were meeting point a, where they want, where he wanted him to get to meeting point b, but giving him great latitude and how to get from point a to point b with point b again being very clearly defined with measurable, with metrics and and so on. And i think if you think about bright people, they tend not all of them, but they tend to want to try things they don’t want to be told what to do all the time. They really want to have the space to make decisions themselves and this. Is what this is, what it is is meant by having having autonomy in this in this sense and it’s a really again it’s really, really great thing to aspire to it’s harder to do. Yeah, well, you have to have a lot of faith in the people you have input you have hired, you have to be willing to delegate and give degrees of freedom, not micromanage, right and and accept failure because everybody’s not going to make it to point b, you know, they’re gonna get derailed sometimes all those things, i mean, those right, those air all difficult, but but you tell me essential for growth rate for the organisation, growth on individuals? Absolutely, and the idea being that you’re not it’s, not like you’re not going to check in with them between points and be right, you know, so that if things were really going awry, you’re going to know it pretty early on. But, yes, that’s the idea is that autonomy is a critical part of growing up azaz, an employee and executive it’s it’s, tom tom dent, a ceo of hugh mentum who says, take work seriously, not yourself, right? More humility, more vulnerability. Well, yes. And allowing laughter. Oh, hi. Laughter not around workplace. Yeah, laughter in the workplace on dh maybe not just laughter around you, but sometimes laughter at you. You know, you make a a silly statement or, you know, think about it really takes a lot of emotional intelligence to be able to allow people to laugh with you slash at you. It’s. Hard to imagine that in an office. Well, i i’ve actually been in on the rail. Where? It’s, why, it’s? Why i’m not an employee anymore? Maybe i put the wrong places. I would be a terrible employee now i’m so autonomous i would shoot myself in the interview just now. Neo-sage but, yeah, no, i i’m thinking of the two ceos. Yeah, there was no yeah, now they would not have tolerated that, but those were the nineties to, um yeah, i mean, just yeah, don’t just just just be personable. I mean, just be a person nobody expects in this culture. We don’t we don’t expect perfection from our from our leaders know well, maybe some people do, but what we’re arguing that you that you don’t need to and that you shouldn’t okay? Okay, let’s, take a let’s. Take another break. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony tweets to, he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit. Radio. Twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti. Now time for tony take, too, but we’re going to do this. We don’t work this awkward drop in right now. I’m a safe too. Looked our founder of good link, goodling dot com non-profits connect with businesses that advanced their missions. When i want the best connections i listen to non-profit radio. Thank you. Receive on. I want to give a shout out tio good link it’s with with a c good link dot com it’s a new marketplace where non-profits meet vendor’s no cost to you as the non-profit it’s. Like a bridge to the products and services you need it’s new and i’m trying to help them get started. So see what you think about that good link dot com. Check them out on my tony. Stay too is my number one takeaway from non-profit technology conference, which was two weeks ago in new orleans. Because if i tell you what the number one takeaway is on you not watch the video, which, as all videos are, is that tony martignetti dahna at least all the worthwhile ones. At twenty martignetti dot com, we captured thirty interviews over the two and a half days sixty guests on dh there’s one top thing that hit me. Vivian actually touched on it. But that is all i am permitted to say at this time. Otherwise you’re not gonna go to tony martignetti dot com and watch the video for my number one takeaway from these thirty interviews that i did, it involves a ceo and that’s as far as i’m willing to go. All right, check out the video. Tony martignetti dot com. We got to live with their love. This is the time. Well, it comes whenever i want it’s. Like springstead says she acknowledged without without prompting it’s. My show let’s. See where we going? Staten island, new york starting local staten island, new york shoutout, new york, new york. Multiple new york. But i live in new york city. Manhattan, new york, new york. Multiple staten island. Shut out to you, rosedale, new york. Rosedale is queens, right? And fresh matter was new york. Also queens. Awesome. And beverly beverly. My guest. Beverly. Um, i guess vivian mentioned queens. You you mentioned queens. You have any of you have any friends or family in rosedale? Fresh meadows? I’d you know? Okay, well, they’re listening. Shut out. Live listen, love teo cleans and going a little further west a little bit. We’ve got salt lake city so, like city, utah, slc and going up north from here we got somerville, mass. Um and then going abroad, we’ve got let’s cross the border further north woodbridge, ontario live listener love to you and going further east would be looks like munich. Germany is next. Guten ta ge to germany and then continuing our voyage east. We have tuck out suki, japan could each awhile talk itsuki live ilsen love to you, couldn’t you and ah, and then well, maybe i went too far east cause then we got to come back middle east. We got tehran, iran and then we go up north moscow, russia. I’m not sure moscow’s been with us live listener love to you moscow um and those are our live listeners so far. Oh, no. I missed tampa, florida. We should’ve gone south. Tampa live. Listen, i’d love to you. And then, of course, we got to the podcast pleasantries. Because that’s, where the over twelve thousand people are listening on, whatever device, whatever time pleasantries to you, i’m very, very grateful that you are podcast listeners are vast? Majority catch us on itunes and then it goes way down like that’s like eighty nine percent of something let’s on itunes and then number two is stitcher, like eight percent or something vast difference between one and two, and then lots of smaller podcast platforms were on pod bay player pod player. Okay, however, you’re getting us pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners throughout the country, grateful that your station has us on their roster wherever, whatever day our part we’re in, i’m grateful to them and i’m grateful to you listening on terrestrial am fm radio never let am fm die it’s so personal i love am fm. I use that as a model for the show. There’s a couple of favorite shows that i used to listen to that i aspire to sound like hyre. Yes, i love am fm radio. Affections to the affiliate listeners. Thank you, vivian hoexter for obliging me while i do that. Thank everybody. Vivian. Of course. Co author of the book with linda hartley. Big impact there are consultancy is h two growth strategies. Dot com. Yeah. So i have someone i want to ask you about. I think you blew it the company name age to grow. It should be a tsh to grow. You should stop hte and then you get the water. You don’t get the h two girl, i get the h two hoexter and hartley, i get that it’s to grow, we should be h to grow and then we should feed your roots. We water your leaves. I don’t you know you could teach to grow. Oh, wow. Well, we’ll have to left looking taken should be h to grow. Yeah, you’d be surprised by how difficult it is. Or maybe you wouldn’t be to get earl that’s not taken twenty martignetti dot com was not teo wasn’t is not very popular. Now i got to compete with the martignetti liquor dynasty up in the boston massachusetts era. You said you that you told me earlier you vacation in cape cod. God, do you know the martignetti liquor dynasty? A liquor stores, maybe? All right, there, there, up there, you know, they’re they’re they’re supermarkets of liquor, maybe. Or maybe our listeners. A lot of the settlers in somerville, mass they know them, but these air supermarkets, not just little corner stores, and but i got tony martignetti dot com. I don’t know. Maybe they don’t have any tony’s. I don’t know. I couldn’t get martignetti dot com. They have that liquor barons. Okay, um, it was also like going, oh, gilda’s club. Yeah, the red doors? Yes. You were ceo of guilt for years. I wass and it’s a wonderful organization. It’s, now part of the wellness community, emerged with the wellness community after i left at the time, we had maybe drive it into the ground, did it, and then that’s where they murdered. No, no, no, no. Don’t do that. Okay. There there were a million inference. You made the inference available. I want to say i wanted to feel. Yeah, okay, go for it. Okay, so there were about thirty guilders clubs throughout north america, and i have to visit everyone on dh. We inherited an organization where thie founder and principal funder was was beginning to not want to be the sole supporter of the organisation any longer. Okay? And so we had to build the board, and i have a board that would really contribute and fundraisers. Significant amount. And we weigh doubled the revenue. In the time i was there, we developed. Yeah, it was. It was a good it’s. A wonderful organization, you know? It provides emotional and social support for people with cancer, their families and friends. Yes, families and friends, too. I thought it was just for the cancer patient survivor now not true, okay. Let’s. See, what would you like to talk about? I have other topics are good. But what strikes you about all these forty seven interviews? What? What moves you the most? It was inspiring to talk to these leaders. Inspiration, that’s. One of things i want to talk about. All right. It’s. Really, really inspiring. I mean, teo, be able, you know, we asked some fairly intimate questions like what’s the what’s, the worst and best thing that’s ever happened to you in your life. And what did you mean, what’s your definition of happiness? Yes. You know all these interviews? Face-to-face many of them were face-to-face virality of them were my phone. They tried to do for way tried to face-to-face, yes, but even even on the phone, right, these and and in many in most instances, in some instances, thie leaders had asked to see the questions beforehand, but in some instances they had not seen them, so they were really kind of we got there sort of their raw, fresh first response to some of these questions. And it really the way that many of them have turned tragedy into achievement into empathy into mission. It’s really? You mentioned tara peri at the national casa on dh. You know leon botstein at bard college, whose daughter was killed when she was seven years old, crossing the street to get to the bus. Aunt, he you know, that was early on in his time a bard. And he said, you know, his first impulse was to throw himself out the window. But what he did was he built, barred into really a force to be reckoned with, and and highly the innovative place, you know, they were the first to teach in. Prisons are among the first they were they haven’t this early college which they now have not just in the us, but around the world where kids can earn associate degrees in there four years of high school. Ah, and so is highly innovative place on dh he so i one has to believe right that he took that tragedy and sort of turned that took that anger, energy, whatever, and put it into building barred into the institution that is for children, i mean, well, not for chilled, but for for follow-up kottler college students. But you know that his child never got to be. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So so it’s really was really inspiring to to hear this tio here, that wisdom and to hear how willing these the leaders were to share with us. So that was another thing that surprised us. We knew a few of them before, but most of them we didn’t know and and we only had i would say, of all the people we asked, we only had one or two turn downs, and that was a very, you know, like high level incredibly busy ceo let’s not focus on the one or two. No, no, no, no. But my point is that they’re going to share, willing to share. And i think partially again because people don’t ask non-profit leaders a lot about their strategies and their insights. They ask corporate leaders right? Not non-profit leaders, so to be able to talk about what was important to them and how they’d gotten to where they are and what they see for the future was really, really felt good to them. Ah, and and we’re hopeful that the people who read the book will want to learn more about some of these organizations and possibly support them. At least let it certainly learned and get inspired by the book. Get the book for pete’s sake. It sze called big impact. Um, just get the thing, you know, we can’t we can’t cover it all in an hour. Um, now no, she she endorses. No, certainly not persistence. Another. Another topic you got you to talk about? Um, somebody says somebody says, oh, this is evan wolfson, president of freedom to marry. You cannot win every battle but lose forward. What you talking about? What he’s saying for? So for example, so freedom to marry was one of the key organizations in winning legalization of gay marriage equality. And evan worked on this for thirty two years from the time he wrote his law school thesis about it. And i have to say, he evan is brilliant on dh. He described to us some of the strategies that freedom to marry and its coalition used to win gay marriage. And when he talks about losing forward, want an example of that is going to the south and having and having activity campaigns in the south, even though he knew they knew it would be much more difficulty to get people in the south to really before gay marriage. But they knew they had to engage with the people in the south. They had to engage all over the country. Ah. And the same is true. You know, in certain cultures, arm or conservative, like the latino culture on they engage. They had they had campaigns with latinos. They had campaigns with african americans on dh. They just kept pushing forward, even though again, they knew that they weren’t going to win. Everybody’s. They were going to win all hearts and minds. Right on lee only enough to make it happen. So there’s the inspiration when he’s, he worked on this for over thirty years with his law school thesis. Yes. Excuse me. And, you know, there’s a there’s a someone who’s been on the show. Paul low, big wrote a book called the impossible will take a little while. You know, you have to stay with you. Somebody, someone of one of the people you you interview says that a profound change takes time. Yeah, that might have been you and linda said that a profound change takes time. But, you know, that’s part of the inspiration mean that to me, that which feeding that is the the vision that the leader brings to the organization and and the incremental steps toward that vision, whether it’s eliminating poverty, you know, in in metropolitan boston, you know, whatever it is that commitment to vision and then and bringing people together, who so loved, who support that vision and are willing to work at it for thirty years on dh, celebrate the small victories, right? And then really be good at doing that celebrate the small victories and making sure that your people are taking care of themselves so that they don’t get burnt out life balance. Yeah, one of your i think it’s, i have a bill. Bill uhlfelder yes, talks about life balance and says, if you’re if you’re waiting to get it kind of connected your family over vacations and sabbaticals, you know you’re you’re losing your family. Yes, balance, right? Yes. Is essential for persistence. Well, it is. It is. So this is one where our leaders were sort of all over the map. Okay? Most of them were striving for work. Life balance, right? Most of them. And then a few were unapologetically workaholic. And one said there’s. No such thing as work-life balance there’s. Just life and work is a part of it. That was larry kramer at the william and flora hewlett foundation. Life is a part of it. All right. That’s fair. That’s? Yes. That’s. A decent balance, right? I objective. Yes. Yeah. I think i think larry works pretty hard. Okay. Well, yeah. Um, it’s something it’s a life practice? Absolutely. I’m i’m sort of joking. Yes, way. We believe that work life balance is essential, particularly when you’re working on seemingly intractable problems that will take a while to solve. Impossible will take a little while. All right, we got a car last break. Okay. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests. Check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark. Yeah, insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff. They need something which is simple and fast. The smartest experts and leading thinkers air on tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. All right, now, let’s, go back to vivian hoexter. Yeah, i get it animated and then bring it back down. What a talent on what a talent unfortunate that one took prompting. Um, okay, so yes, we’re striving for balance. It’s a life’s practice. Don’t give it up. I mean, don’tjust. Don’t just surrender and say my family’s got a week. No, i loved ones have to wait. My friends, even friends go to your go to college reunion now and then high school reunion now and then connect. Yes. Okay. Anything what you want say that? Yes, like you’re exhausted. It it’s just essential, right? It’s, it’s essential. But both linda and i believe strongly in it. I was just at a college reunion last weekend. Pittsburgh, carnegie mellon ah, opportunity. Bunch of guys got together so it’s almost like it’s on my mind and plus, i’m always admonishing, i probably am. I’m not just encouraging. I probably i’m admonishing that’s. I think that’s the right word listeners through the show and videos like help sometimes and wag my finger in a video. Take time for yourself. You know, if you want to give your in e-giving profession if you want to give effectively, i think you have to take yes. And that taking is being selfish and taking time yourself and your family and sometimes even just for yourself, like quiet solitude kind of time if you want to give, i believe you have to take yes, yes. And all too often i think in non-profits the feeling there’s a grateful even feeling of intensity about having to accomplish the mission so it’s hard to do that to take the time that is essential you got and you got to make the time, right? Yeah. Zach’s going to find it? I can never find the time. Yeah, well, time is not going to tap you on the shoulder and say, here i am you found me. You gotta affirmatively make the time. Yes, yes. Don’t keep trying to find it it’s not going it’s not going to make itself apparent to, you know, and it will be uncomfortable at first to take the time. You know things right the first time. You may be the first half dozen time abandoning ship. Yeah. How we’re gonna get along without? Yeah, well, you need to have the humility to recognize that they can write. All right, see how this all fits together. Just get the book for god’s sake. It so it all fits together. Um, okay. You mentioned larry kramer, hewlett foundation. Did you yet has it? He says relationships matter in this in this persistence and drive toward mission, you know, relationships talk about relationships. So what larry is saying, it actually is that for him life is all about relationships, it’s more than just the mission, right? You know, it is the mission, but to him it’s, it’s, that’s what that’s, what it’s about? And i think it’s particularly important in the nonprofit world because so many of the missions of the organizations that we work in our have social missions right there, they’re about either caring for people are teaching people to care for themselves or and so it’s really, really important to be able to relate well to people because there’s also the fact that in the nonprofit sector you can’t play p pent can’t pay people top dollar. Ah, and so there have to be there have to be other benefits toe working inside a non-profit and one of those is having caring relationships with the people you work with and also organizational relationships. Yes, partnering type of yes, flush out that level because these days, right? So number one funders like partnerships, increasingly and, you know, we have lots and lots of non-profits in this country, over a million of them, and maybe a few too many on the a lot of the missions of those organizations are complimentary on dh, so i think it’s really incumbent on organizations to make strategic partnerships a priority. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s critical. Not on ly because funding is limited because funders like partnerships, but because you get more done, yeah, for less money. Yeah. There’s a synergy. Yes, we’ve had guests on talking about how to find the right partners. Get your board buy-in the board, the board process of formal partnerships and things. Yes. All right, so explore those, you know, think about those. So i’m going to turn back to you let’s talk about something that interests you in the book that we haven’t talked about yet. Great, you know, and it gets all your book, she’s she’s, i feel i feel bad for the guests who bring notes or what? She’s in that vivian doesn’t know what she’s been clutching her book, but they never get a chance to read the notes they bring them. They feel security. I tell them they won’t have time. They hold the notes anyway, and then they never get a chance to look at them. Because, you know, because we’re having a conversation, so would you. Would you find you? You peruse your table of contents? Yes, i did. I did. So i i want to go back to evan wolfson because i i really think that if you read the interview with levon welchlin mary-jo yes, that that interview is kind of a lesson in how to make social change. Evan is the on ly one of the forty seven leaders who has accomplished his mission completely and disbanded his organization. That’s that’s telling that never happens. That’s what he’s done usually organizations expand to find a new mission. So evan now is a high level advisor to other countries around the world that where people are trying to get gay marriage legalized. And he also consults to some. I think now he’s consulting to immigration organizations in this country to try to help them. But he no longer has an organisation himself. And i think his the the understanding how freedom to marry and its coalitions achieved the mission is it’s really instructive it’s really a it’s like a primer in how to make positive social change? Because he did, he did all of it. They got he got really clear about the goal. That’s one of the principles and learned howto articulated persuasively and specifically at a certain point, learned that if you made it about the legal aspect of of gay marriage in the public eye, it was not going to be as effective as if you talked about giving people make having people be ableto love who they wanted to love. At a certain point in the campaign, they really switched the way they talked about gay marriage, and that was really critical to it becoming possible. And then another principle is build. So you have to campaign on many fronts you haven’t. Then you have to build broad based coalition let’s. Talk about the many fronts. That’s a section of the book, so the the idea is that you and really this is sort of the partnership idea is part of part of this that you can’t do it alone and that if you’re not striving to influence the private sector and government, which are the two dominant sectors in our economy, then you’re really not going to make lasting social change, and so you have to work with those sectors. You have to learn how to talk to those sectors on dh, on dh you have to be working on lots of different levels all at once, because otherwise it’s not going to happen on and that includes working with faith based organizations, which some people, some organizations know how to do, and others don’t. But and again, leon botstein at bard makes a really, really interesting point about this. He says that somehow a lot of us, particularly on the coast, i guess, have sort of decided that faith based organizations are not important any more that, you know, because of the increasing secularization of our society, that we don’t need to worry about them. But the truth is that they’re very particularly in the middle of the country, so that maybe in some parts of a very powerful, in vast parts of right, very, very powerful on dh. We. And if you really want to make social change in your community, you’re going to have to work with those organizations because they’re often the ones that are already working on it, right? Yeah. They have, they have the soup kitchen, they have the homeless shelter, you know, they’re they’re already actively engaged in making change or taking care of the people in their communities. And so you really have to reach out to them. And they’re in the community there. Yes, there the communities. They know the local leaders, whether they’re the official leaders of the unofficial leaders, if you want to work in yeah, you want make real change and work in the grassroots. You need to know who the unofficial leaders are direct in the community. Yes. And your faith based the metoo the organization’s know that stuff? Yes, there, there they’ve been. They’ve been there for decades and generations. Yes. Okay, um yeah. So you ah here’s, sort of where we just have a couple minutes left together. What what struck you about some of the questions? You got answers. You got to the question. Ah, you asked everybody. How do you define happiness? So, you know, it’s, a that’s, a highly personal question, right in the sense, in the sense that it’s different for for everyone and some of our leaders, because their lives are so frenetic, all they want is peace and quiet to them. That’s happiness, but that’s rygel yeah, yeah on dh then, for some it’s being with their families and, you know, spending time with the people they love. Ah, and, you know, interestingly, when we had not a lot of them said, you know, happiness is sitting at my desk for twelve hours a day for a lot of money or a lot of no, no, that not this group, not this, you know, and again that’s part of the emotional intelligence, right isn’t understanding what really makes life worth living, which is relationships and meaningful work and all of those things. Six okay, um, let’s see, what do you love about the work you’re doing? Well, i’ve always been mission driven, tonia, you know, i got an mba and i tried to work in the corporate world, but i wasn’t happy and lord and taylor, i was with the fire and the fire lord, and i was that i was at best foods is a problem manager didn’t work no, no. And so what really makes me happy is is helping to make positive change in the world. I mean, that’s and helping the underdog. I’ve always wanted to help the underdog leave it there. All right, you she’s vivian hoexter get the book for god’s sake. It’s called big impact insights and strategies from america’s big impact inside insights and stories who wrote strategies? I needed an intern to blame for this insights and stories from america’s non-profit leaders. If i had an intern, they’d be fired, if any more to recommend anybody. Let me know next week the first release of the ntcdinosaur provoc technology conference interviews thirty of them coming and next week is may already. If you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio weather cpas guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com until those credit card payment processing, you’re passive long term revenue stream tony dot mm slash tony tell us. Our creative producer, is claire meyerhoff. Family roots is a line producer. Thie shows social media is by susan chavez. Our music is by scott stein of brooklyn. With me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving nothing. Cubine hi, i am dr tranquility of dr tranquility pr, successfully meeting the media needs of the wellness community as an expert myself for major mainstream media, radio, tv and french magazines. I now have. 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