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[00:03:13.34] spk_0:
on Welcome tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. Id. Bear the pain of familial, benign Pem Fergus If you got under my skin with the idea that you missed today’s show Black Philanthropy Month BPM 2020 in August examines how all forms of funding can advance the economic justice so essential to achieve racial equity. My guests are BPM founder Jackie Copeland and co architect Valetta Fulwood. Also, collaborations MoU to merger Jean Takagi is seeing more interest among nonprofits in exploring co ventures of some sort. We talked through how to start that journey internally and externally, and what form your collaboration might take. He’s our legal contributor and principle of neo. The non profit and exempt organizations Law group on Tony’s Take Two planned giving accelerator were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As, guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund. Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Ger Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen. Two dot ceo. Here is Black Philanthropy Month. It’s my pleasure now to welcome Jackie Copeland and violate a full would to the show. Uh, anthropologist Jackie Copeland is co founder of Pan African Women’s Philanthropy Network, a global association of African descent, and allied women leaders, donors and activists of all backgrounds. Idea Whisperer. Wait, no, there’s more to say about Jackie. Sorry about that. Jackie founded Black Philanthropy Month in 2011. She’s founder and CEO of the Wise Fund, promoting human rights through equitable funding and technology towards a just society and sustainable planet. It’s at the wise fund dot, or GE, and she’s at Jackie Be Copeland Idea Whisperer. Valetta Fulwood has a client base that ranges widely and her interests center on social innovation in philanthropy, education and the arts. She helps people and organisations Dr Bold ideas forward by guiding their projects and by writing their stories. She’s at Valetta dot com v a l a i d. A. And at Valetta F Jackie Vallejo Welcome. Welcome to non profit radio.

[00:03:16.23] spk_1:
Thanks me.

[00:03:19.78] spk_0:
Absolutely pleasure to have you, Jackie. Let’s start with you. You’re the founder of Black Philanthropy Month. What’s it all about?

[00:07:00.44] spk_1:
Well, um is inspired by all of the diverse people I’ve worked with from the U. S. African Americans, but also to black diaspora worldwide for 30 years. And it’s clear that people give and give abundantly, but often do not fully recognize the power and impact of their individual giving and don’t even necessarily see themselves as philanthropists. So it was specifically inspired in 2011 by a very diverse group of black women in Minneapolis. At the time, it had the most ethnically diverse black population in the country, and everyone was giving. There were ancient giving circles that were being replanted and adapted to the U. S. All kinds of social enterprises. And I became like the pro bono adviser, and I knew it would be powerful. Even I knew all these women, but they didn’t know each other. And at the time I was teaching philanthropy at the University of Minnesota, which hosted the formation of this this group Pan African Women’s Philanthropy Network that I started and based on that experience, I thought it would be helpful if there were actual month where we step back. Ah, as a global community and recognize are giving is import and how to do it better, better and more collaboratively so that we can have a greater influence on the social and economic and environmental challenges that face black people wherever they are on the planet. So that was the genesis of it. It was also inspired by the U. N. Had an international decade for people of African descent. Also recognizing that there were these common, this common threat of history in common challenges that require more visibility and social action. It became a decade recognizing, um, people of African descent. And so now the U. N has recognized black philanthropy mom as an important pillar in um, acknowledging a celebrating black culture globally and now third, I think 30 plus different government entities from cities, towns and states have recognized Flat Philanthropy Month, and I think we’ve counted 17 million or so people engaged so far. So it’s becoming a global movement, which is part of what I was hoping for. But Valetta will tell the story of how they she got involved, and there’s another woman who couldn’t make it today who I always want to acknowledge. Tracey Webb, who was a pioneer in her own right. She created the first black philanthropy blogger I’ll call Black Gives Back. And she also is the founder of a prominent giving circle called Bled Black Benefactors. And so that’s kind of the story that was me as founding it. And I, um, for three years was doing it, um, largely alone and with some of the women from Minnesota and inflate a in Tracy.

[00:07:06.43] spk_0:
Okay, a poignant that it’s founded in Minneapolis.

[00:07:10.94] spk_1:
Uh, yeah, for obviously genesis of our whole reasons. Yeah,

[00:07:15.70] spk_0:
Genesis of our old racial conversation. Now, after the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

[00:07:35.28] spk_1:
Well, Minhas Minneapolis is a unique place where the best the greatest social challenges of America and some of our best opportunities are sort of concentrate it. And so, as I look back, is not surprising that this new phase of the global racial justice movement would have come out in Minneapolis

[00:07:45.24] spk_0:
before we turn to Valetta doing Do you know the the impact of the rough dollar amount of black philanthropy in recent in last year? 2018?

[00:08:27.37] spk_1:
Well, there haven’t been studies recently. Eso Most of us are citing data from 2000 and 14 and for about 20 years there’s been research on US black philanthropy, and all of it confirms that African Americans continue to give the highest proportion of their income to philanthropy, and that’s even in recessions and effect. Our philanthropy goes up in a recession.

[00:08:28.64] spk_0:
There are

[00:08:45.64] spk_1:
always communities. Philanthropy goes down in a recession, but for a lot of cultural reasons, and people don’t realize this is like a hardwired part of the culture is how you become grown and recognized as an adult you have causes

[00:08:48.07] spk_0:
does. It doesn’t

[00:08:48.90] spk_1:
start ever amount that you are giving to and supporting with your time, talent and treasure as part of being black.

[00:09:46.64] spk_0:
It’s time for a break wegner-C.P.As paycheck protection program. Loan forgiveness. I got a message from my bank that they have presentations on this, but they’re only for bank clients. That’s fine for me. But what if your lender doesn’t have resource? Is if they just send you a link to their form? Wegner has you covered their latest free wagon are explains the state of P P P loan forgiveness. What’s forgivable? What documentation do you need? How to work with your lender? Go to wegner-C.P.As dot com Click Resource is and recorded events now back to Black Philanthropy Month with Jackie Copeland and violate a full would. Does it start or did? It doesn’t have its roots, its roots in churches.

[00:10:02.24] spk_1:
It has his roots in churches, but in part because the church is such an important social institution in our multi century history in the US But if transcends churches, it is also a voluntary associations is wherever two or more black people are gathered, they figure out something to give

[00:10:21.99] spk_0:
to, however later. Lett’s bring you in. Um, if you wanna talk a little about the black philanthropy months. But then I also want to talk about the summit that kicks it off on on August 1st.

[00:12:44.77] spk_2:
Oh, yes, great. So I was there in 2011 in Minneapolis when Jackie convened the Pan African Women’s Philanthropy Summit and um was really elated when she announced August is Black Philanthropy Month, in part because at that same time, I had just finished on my manuscript for the book, giving back a tribute to generations of African American philanthropists, and the book was gonna be released in October. So this convening in August in Minneapolis was some timely and to be gathered with other black women from across the globe to learn and also to share about. My forthcoming book was, um, really It’s for inspirational and just great timing. So I continue to follow Jackie’s work with black philanthropy months as I rolled out the book and engaged in book talks around the country. And then in 2000 and 2013 I reached out to my friend Tracy Web, which Jackie Jackie mentioned earlier. And Tracy had a huge following with her Blawg like It’s back dot com and also was building a network through my work around the book and thought, Hey, you know, we can really amplify and magnify black philanthropy. It’s the three of US war to join forces and use our respective networks and collective networks. Teoh, you really take Black Follansbee months to another level. So I reached out to Jackie, pitched the idea, uh, which I thought was pretty awesome. But I really hope she might see the same. And she was gracious and oh, saying yes to women that she only knew slightly and, um, when we rolled out, let Philanthropy Month in a new way, particularly leaning on social media engagement and our connections there. It really did take off and go to a whole, another level nationally and globally, which gave us a glimpse into the possibilities. So ever since then, we’ve been working in collaboration.

[00:12:47.90] spk_0:
Was just saying, I’m looking forward. Next year’s your 10th anniversary,

[00:12:50.74] spk_2:
you got

[00:13:19.02] spk_1:
way. I believe it because let’s just say this has been a labor of love and our own pocketbooks, Okay, because, um, this is not, Let’s just say this is amount of money making enterprise, but it is just there so much challenge in our community. And a lot of the media only reports what’s wrong with us. And as a social scientists and activists, I committed myself focusing on what’s right with us. So look over a week, and that’s what philanthropy is. And I forgot to mention you ask, how much for African Americans is at least $12 billion a year? Okay. And some people count the Remittances of African immigrants

[00:13:40.02] spk_0:
right going

[00:14:08.64] spk_1:
because a good portion of those gold to build schools and for healthcare scholarships, and so that’s $11 billion. Just so we’re talking about just the us $23 billion nobody has a true global number. That would be a great research project. I’m working on a proposal for it. I hope somebody funds it because you really do need to know globally, how much by country and then on aggregate global level is black black giving

[00:14:14.74] spk_0:
later. How about the summit that kicks off Philanthropy Month, August 1st black giving and beyond Virtual summit? Tell us,

[00:14:23.48] spk_2:
Yeah, we’re thrilled about it. It was Jackie’s brainchild that she shared with me and Tracy, I think, late last year, and we’ve been building on it again. It was before the pandemic before the outcries against racial injustice, but it seems right on time. So the idea is to host a global virtual convening on a high tech event platform that invites participation from all across the world. And we have, ah, really stellar lineup of speakers and Panelists, and discussions will focus on how we can aggregate funding and resource is in capital to help in the recovery and rebuilding of black communities. In the wake of these twin pandemics. As Jackie often says, any black racism and Corona virus

[00:15:21.78] spk_0:
info info on all this is that black philanthropy month dot com, right?

[00:17:06.79] spk_1:
Yes. Please. Thank you. We want to commercial. We want people to people to go to black philanthropy month dot com Learn about this summit and register and under build on what violator was saying We’re trying very. We missed being able to come together in person. I mean, I think that is one of the most difficult aspects of this whole Corona virus period. So we’re trying our best to simulate a, um a real life in person conference environment with this platform there. Four days August 1st is to kick off with Soledad O Brien Bakari Sellers, Benjamin jealous and a activist on racism and technology named Joy Belluomini. Um and then all his fourth and fifth are in Africa. We have the Kim Daymo Trumbo as a keynote speaker, along with a very prominent philanthropist named I Show Mohammed or you’re both day. Ah, and then we are having on August 29th a women’s rally and that will be headlined by some of the top women leaders of philanthropy. Like most communities, black women do a lot of the heavy lifting for giving funding, care giving, and let’s just say we’re under some really special stresses in this Corona virus period and with this severe economic downturn has got 20% at least 20% black unemployment, 40% of our small businesses, clothes closing and 1/3 of all Corona viruses. The virus deaths in the US are black on a lot of that

[00:17:10.90] spk_0:
is proportionate again.

[00:17:32.21] spk_1:
Yeah, a lot of that care giving and community giving falls on us. So we’re trying to also revive our ideas in our spirits through this entire summit. Siris for four events Let’s let’s talk

[00:18:03.91] spk_0:
some about some of the racial inequities around around broader philanthropy. I know black flan. Three month is devoted toe elevating black philanthropists and funders and investors. But I want to go a little broader and talk about some of those inequities in philanthropy generally. And, of course, you know, tie it to the the conversation that we’re all having about systemic, institutionalized racism. What’s the, well, the later listed contento? Later for Okay, please.

[00:18:52.34] spk_2:
Yes, The data says that roughly 2% of ah foundation funding from the country’s largest funders go directly to black led organizations and black communities, which is, you know, really shocking figure when I first learned of that. And so that is evidence of the chronic underfunding and also some of the racial bias that exists. The conscious and unconscious bias that exists in the philanthropic realm and black philanthropy Months and discussions at the summit are all centered around, uh, making things right and more equitable, and just in the philanthropic and just general funding round. So,

[00:18:53.18] spk_0:
Jackie, what’s the what’s the role then of black philanthropists and and funders, et cetera, In bringing about that change,

[00:20:58.39] spk_1:
right? Well, I want to note that the reason the summit is called black giving and beyond is we realize that there are Eddies and equities that we have to talk about our own philanthropy, our own giving his black people. But we also have to talk about the responsibility of institutional philanthropy to our community and address some of these longstanding disparities are delivering. In 19 eighties, when we were when I first started, we grabbing the same conversations. It is like deja vu all over again, cause it hasn’t gotten that much better. And so, um, philanthropy is a key piece of it, but with the figures, I just shared with you around Really, the decimation of black communities in this cove it era is going to take more than fully. And the truth is, when we look at social investment and venture funding, we get about 1% of those funds as well. So there is just there’s a problem with private sector funding toe black communities, whether we’re looking at philanthropy or business funding, and our nonprofits and our businesses have to be strong to rebuild what we’ve lost. Win had it much anyway, and we’ve lost so much just in the recession has just gotten started that this summit is inviting philanthropists. Community and institutional toe have this question discussion about equity, but also VC funders and social investors. And so, in fact, every session we have tried to have health care expert who can talk about the impact of Corona virus, but also institutional or community philanthropy and activist as well as a V, C or social investment funder. And so our model, our hashtag we have a couple of them. We call ourselves the Fund Black Summit. That’s our nickname and black funding matters. And in that statement is not just philanthropy. Of course, that’s that’s what’s driving us. It’s part of our culture. But our for Ray into the social justice movement, our current racial equity movement is to say, Look, there’s a serious problem with funding overall, what are we going to do about it?

[00:21:30.43] spk_0:
And so you need to be talking and not just you. We all need to be talking beyond the black philanthropy and funding and investing community. I mean, you do

[00:21:35.55] spk_1:
you want me? Oh,

[00:21:54.64] spk_0:
you won’t be talking more much more broadly because every $3 billion is sizable, although, you know, roughly half of that is leaving the U. S. We have is valuable, which has its as its place. But but roughly only half is staying here. And in the big scheme of of giving, you know, that’s a that’s a small amount. So

[00:22:58.79] spk_1:
in the big scheme of get funding, we’re talking trillions when you air in. I’m venture funding and you add in social investment. And so we really are talking about how do black folks get fair Access to the capital doesn’t necessary to sustain any people or community. And so it’s an economic justice summit as well, and we hope that the practical outcome and belated alluded to this is the’s on just fund black new black funding principles that include philanthropy but moved beyond it to ask the hard questions of veces Why do you have why is it OK to funding young man who dropped out of college and had a good idea but has no track record? Give him millions and millions of dollars and dope hold him accountable for it. But then you can have Ivy League educated black business leaders who have created a profit proven themselves, and they have to jump through all kinds of hoops because of this hoops on

[00:23:06.14] spk_2:
fire at that.

[00:23:48.44] spk_1:
Now this implicit bias you have around how women can’t do certain kind of business or how you know black people aren’t good with numbers, even though people aren’t doing that on purpose. That that’s what implant implicit bias is sure, Um, and it really has an impact in our communities. Folks in Minneapolis, we’re saying we don’t own anything. We can’t own it. We can’t own our businesses. We can’t on the house because of the price of living. When you have a whole group of people who feel like they have no stake in the future of the community and the country cause they can’t get fairness is back for democracies. That’s what we’re partly up to. Yeah, later you have Valetta Door has something to add to that

[00:24:36.91] spk_0:
I was gonna go. I was going to say bad. It’s devastating way We were nowhere near realising our full potential as a country where, what 1/4 of the population is It has just been victim to institutionalized structures, processes racism times Well, 400 years if you want. But certainly I’m thinking even just of more modern times. But, you know, of course, the tragedy goes back. 401 years were nowhere nowhere near reaching our potential as a country. When when that kind of that kind of proportion of the population is not ableto not able to achieve what the other 75% can. Yeah.

[00:25:46.04] spk_1:
Yeah, And I think that George Floyd video as tragic as it is and I still haven’t seen it because I don’t have the emotional I can’t really say I will not see it because I know it. I live in I can’t see it and continue to focus um but I’m glad the world saw it. And it was a very, very brave young woman. Darnell afraid her in Minneapolis recorded it because I think it was a wake up call for the country on the planet. Look, something is seriously wrong. We can’t just keep our heads in the sand and say that, you know, we’re often told. Well, you got a chip on your shoulder. That was the old days. The civil rights movement has come. You have overcome. But that could have been that could have been President Obama. I hate to say it. It could have been any black man or woman with the U. S. Who was subject to that kind of treatment that our education levels are. Achievement are meritocracy does not protect us or give us equal. It’s all off my soapbox. But you asked.

[00:25:48.77] spk_0:
All right, put Europe. Now I put you up there. I want to hear it. Yeah,

[00:27:26.64] spk_2:
Particular points I wanted to add about the summit specifically is one point we always like to make. While liberation is not free, the summit is so it is open to the public and free to register. I’d also like to emphasize the global aspects of it. As Jackie mentioned, It’s a summit series that kicks off, kicks off on August 1st and continues on the 4th 5th and 29th. And I think, um, you referenced 16 19 and the 400 now 104 101 years of documented black life in America. And the fact that this summit is inviting a global conversation I think is significant, particularly at at a time when black people all over the world are recognizing. Or, uh, I guess that we know. But their headlines and media stories from China to Europe to, you know, here in the States and Brazil about anti black racism and the disparities in health and economics that exists. And so we all recognize our connections wherever we are. And there’s also the fact that, um, kind of the the year of the return that 2019 marked for many of us. Many, like people and families, return to Africa to connect to their roots. Um, ancestry dot com and other DNA testing companies have made popular people finding their roots and tracing it back to Africa and being curious and interested in reconnecting with communities there. So the fact that this year’s BPM has ah, very specific global focus and invitation is a significant variety ways. And so we’re excited about that.

[00:29:34.11] spk_1:
Yeah, I will say that the black I asked for was always involved in part because of those Minneapolis roots there were when Minneapolis had, at the time, the largest populations of Liberians and Somalis and Kenyans in the U. S. And they were. It’s still our cause. That coalition is still alive and, well, part of this coalition of women. Um, that put on the first summit. Okay, but now actually having an Africa base, especially for like, for me as an African nous anthropologists focusing on Africa and a diaspora it’s sort of our track into the global economy as well. Global economy. Israel You can’t just focus on your backyard. We all have to figure out how to collaborate across borders is just and do business. And so it is really, um, an act of also, um, not just solidarity for practical economic empowerment. We’re asking the question. How could we support each other’s issues? No matter where you go, black women tend to have the highest rates of maternal mortality in their communities. And that’s triple in Africa that strictly Europe. That’s true in the U. S. S. So there are these global questions about our future, and we can Onley come up with the answers is if we’re collaborating across the lines of national origin, ethnicity, religion, and we define ourselves in many ways, just like Asian or Jewish people. There’s a lot of diversity within. Diversity is beautiful to bring it all together in this summit experience.

[00:30:13.70] spk_0:
Are we gonna leave it there then? All right, that’s beautiful. Wrap up Black Philanthropy Month Black Philanthropy month dot com kicks off August 1st we all well, we all are wanted to participate. We all are sought after so black philanthropy dot com We didn’t say it, but I’ll just shout out quick. The theme for this year’s Black Flam three month is Foresight 2020 which is cool. That’s very good. Thank you very much. Jackie. Jackie Copeland. You’ll find her at the Wise Fund dot or GE and at Jackie, Be Copeland and later Fulwood Valetta dot com. And at Valetta F Jackie Valetta. Thank you very much.

[00:30:21.39] spk_1:
You can tony and later

[00:32:36.04] spk_0:
we need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software. Their accounting product Denali, is built for non profits from the ground up. So you get an application that supports the way you work that has the features you need and the exemplary support that understands you. They have a free 60 day trial on the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant non. Now it’s time for Tony’s Take two. I’m very proud to announce the launch of planned giving accelerator. This is a yearlong membership community where I am going to teach you everything I know about how to start and build your planned giving program. Just like this show. It’s designed for small and mid sized nonprofits. I’m gonna produce an exclusive podcast for members. Exclusive. Webinars. We’ll have asked me anything Sessions on Zoom in small groups. There’s gonna be a Facebook community that’s private. Just for members will have all kinds of resource is checklists, templates, everything you need, and I’ll share everything I know on how to start your planned giving program. It’s planned giving accelerator go to planned giving accelerator dot com. You’ll find all the info there. That’s where you sign up to join the membership. Our yearlong membership community. I hope you’ll join me if you don’t have a plan to giving program. This is the time to get started. You’ll pay a lot less for a full year. Then you’d pay to work with me directly in just a month. Everything you need is that planned giving accelerator dot com that is Tony’s Take two Now. Time for collaborations. Mou to merger It’s my pleasure to welcome back Jean Takagi. It

[00:32:38.49] spk_1:
always is. You know

[00:33:00.14] spk_0:
him. He’s our legal contributor and managing attorney of Neo, the non profit and Exempt Organizations Law group in San Francisco. He edits the wildly popular non profit law blogged dot com, and is the American Bar Association’s 2016 outstanding non profit lawyer. He’s a part time lecturer at Columbia University. The firm is that neo law group dot com, and he’s at G Attack. Welcome back to the show, Gene. Always a pleasure to see you.

[00:33:07.84] spk_3:
Thanks so much. Great to see G tony

[00:33:10.02] spk_0:
doing okay out in California. So

[00:33:11.80] spk_3:
I am thinking Okay. Um how about how about you?

[00:33:15.04] spk_0:
Yes. The beach on the ocean are still across the street from me, so I mean,

[00:33:19.09] spk_3:
that’s fantastic. Very angry.

[00:33:26.34] spk_0:
I wake up every day with a notion across the street. And how bad can it be? Thank you. Yeah, I’m doing fine too. Thanks.

[00:33:29.64] spk_1:
So we’re talking

[00:33:58.99] spk_0:
about, um, you know, joining forces on and there’s Ah, there’s a broad spectrum of possibilities that this can take on, but without getting too technical on before we get to some of the summit of possibilities, you’re seeing an uptick in your practice and research is showing their stats. They’re showing their arm or not profits considering or exploring some kind of collaboration. You know what’s going on? What are you seeing?

[00:35:42.54] spk_3:
Yeah, and, um, I appreciate kind of being able to tell you that I’m doing well, but I know that there are a lot of people out there that are going through some pretty tough times right now, and there are a lot of organizations that are going through some very tough times, and that’s definitely not restricted the for profit sector. It’s hitting the nonprofit sector very hard right now as well. On top of that, the demand for many non profit service’s are higher than ever, as a lot of people are struggling through these times, so, yeah, non profits are getting hit hard on the revenue side. They’re getting hit hard because of the man, for their service is on their limited ability to deliver them with all of our shelter and place orders. So, through all of that, um, you know, there have been some conjecture that that many, many nonprofits are not going to survive. Over the next year on, we’ll see the loss of many nonprofits. And there’s this desire that many of these nonprofits air serving communities that are not getting the attention that they might from larger, stronger, financially organizations it might go under the radar and looking to see how their programs and what they’re trying to do is going to fit in. And in this time, where we’re also seeing this huge movement towards greater equity, racial equity, social justice, picking up these small nonprofits and their programs, and saving them so that the beneficiaries who are most impacted by the pandemic and all of the associate ID bad things that happened around it has become important. So nonprofits were struggling looking to save programs may be looking for some sort of collaborative partner to help them through and some of the bigger funders and bigger organizations are saying yes, we want to do more of these severely impacted communities that we’re not reaching as much as you know, some of these smaller organizations are. We want to collaborate with them and keep those service is alive.

[00:36:28.23] spk_0:
So if if we feel like we’re in that boat, uh, I mean, I guess it could be either were way. You feel particularly, um, strong in our community, or we feel like we’re at risk and vulnerable in our community. Um, where would we start this? Where would we start the possible collaboration conversation? We said we start internally. I’m sure what? What we need to be talking about among our C suite and are board.

[00:37:59.43] spk_3:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And hopefully there’s a sense or ready with some organizations that you do know your allies in the space. They may not exactly overlap with you. Probably they shouldn’t, you know, for reasons of competition. But you generally know who your allies are, and I’m marrying you. Want to call collaboration? If you want toe equated to a marriage in some form, you don’t want to marry a total stranger. There’s, um, a huge risk to that. But if you do know some organizations out there that are allied with you, um um, or if you go to your community foundations if you kind of know about them but don’t really haven’t inside sort of a deeper relationship with with some of their key stakeholders and board members and C suite officers getting introductions from community foundations from large funders who being be funding multiple organizations in the same area. That’s kind of how how I would start to get started. Teoh first have the executives start to just talk about it in general, hopefully from a position not like a urgent panic, Um, but from a position of well, let’s see how we can best serve our communities that we’re both trying to do well it and do it in the best way possible.

[00:38:53.57] spk_0:
I read an article that you suggested, written in response to ah question that was submitted by a museum that was on the stronger side in the community and wanted to open conversations but didn’t want to appear predatory. And as I said, you know, there are there are a lot of ways to work together short of merger. There are different, just sort of service agreements and mutual understandings could be a contract or that’s legally enforceable or not. But there are a lot of different ways to work together. So at this early stage, you’re just asking or inviting. No, we all know that we’re struggling. Would you be open to, ah, a conversation about how we might work together, how we might collaborate to serve the community in this, you know, increased time of need.

[00:39:17.03] spk_3:
I think that’s exactly right, tony. And the greater emphasis that you could put on your common missions and forget about, at least in the initial discussions, forget about, like, power dynamics and all of that. But just go in two people talking about their organizations and what they’re trying to do to strengthen their communities and say, What are we trying to do? Where are risks to those communities? How is our missions are common mission at risk? And what can we do? The best address that as we’re facing these unprecedented forces right now, um that are really hurting on the communities were trying to serve and could eventually you’re gonna enter into the discussion that it could, you know, possibly, uh, cause a cut in service is or possibly three eventual shutdown of a program or a worst case, the dissolution of an organization. And I wouldn’t lead with that. But that’s something that that both parties want to be transparent about as they continue their discussions.

[00:40:58.51] spk_0:
Right, Right. But initially, you’re just exploring. That’s right. We’re not talking about shutting down here program or us shutting down hours. We’re sharing about where we’re struggling and where we’re succeeding. Know some organizations are doing well in fundraising in the midst of this triple crisis dream, healthcare, racial equity and and recession and others are not. So you’re just that the exploration stage, I guess, is what I’m is what I’m saying and then going beyond that is that when you would start to draw your board in? You know, I’ve had a couple of conversations with the CEO over at whatever agency we’ve been exploring some some ways that we might be able to help each other. You know, is that the stage you would start to bring this conversation to your board?

[00:41:27.81] spk_3:
Yeah, it depends upon or soon, yeah, it depends upon the board that you have. So it might be bringing in the board chair if that person is particularly strong, um, in their leadership on maybe is well connected if you have some board members who are who can take that role without necessarily bringing the full board in,

[00:41:35.88] spk_0:
right. Oh, I’m sorry. I just meant when I said bring the board and I meant make him privy to your conversations. Yeah, bring them to meetings with the other agency.

[00:42:35.97] spk_3:
Yeah, even even in the conversations before you bring it out to the full board. Because sometimes confidentiality is hard, especially with larger boards. You may want to keep it to a smaller group until you feel like you’ve got something serious. Um, so sometime I was blowing confidentiality because you shirt with too many people off the coffee meeting, Yeah, can kill the whole deal. So just to be careful about, then it depends upon your board. If you have a board of three people, you’re probably best to shirt with the whole three board members right away and make sure that they’re going to keep it confidential. If you have a board of 25 people, maybe not sure with them your first conversation, but take it to the board chair executive committee level. I feel like if there’s something there, then bring it to the board. It’s The board will come in early. But after maybe a couple conversations

[00:43:52.25] spk_0:
time for our last break turn to communications relationships, the world runs on them. We know this turn to is led by former journalists so that you get help building relationships with journalists. Those relationships will help when you need to be heard, so that people you know so that people know you’re a thought leader in your field and they specialize in working with nonprofits. They’re at turn hyphen two dot ceo. We’ve got, but loads more time for collaborations. MoU to merger You have an excellent post at non profit law block dot com that lists a lot of different possible alliances from the least least legally in encumbering, I guess, which is the MOU, or memo of Understanding through merger, which is a total sacrifice of independence on the part of one non profit in favor of another. Um, so there’s a there’s a broad spectrum of possibilities, and at this exploratory stage, we’re not No, we don’t have anything particular in mind. We’re just trying to find out how we might be able help each other.

[00:44:02.89] spk_3:
I think that’s right, tony in and for people to just make it a black and white decision of like, whether we merger, we don’t merge. That’s you know that’s just too serious, that that’s like proposing marriage on your first date,

[00:44:35.89] spk_0:
right? Right. That’s a mistake, and it’ll scare somebody away. It might scare both parties merger, and neither one of us are ready for that. But there’s a lot of possibility. So, um, I let’s see, How can we find this article at non profit law block dot com, the one that lays out all the different methods of aligning?

[00:44:38.74] spk_3:
I I think, non profit collaborations, structural options. And so if you go onto the non profit la blogged dot com, there’s a search far. If you hit non profit collaborations, you’ll find it.

[00:45:08.19] spk_0:
Okay. Excellent. Thank you. Okay, I’m now. Okay. So now let’s say we have furthered our conversations and we see some possibility, but we don’t know what structure to take. How do we how to read procedure? Help us out?

[00:48:05.87] spk_3:
So e think you’re really aiming to see exactly what you want to do, what each party wants to do and where your meeting in common. So if there’s this idea that we want to work together, but we don’t know each other very well, Um, let’s see what we can do. That might be kind of the non binding MOU, the sort of the least amount of commitment made by either organization on that spectrum of collaborations. Um, so you know, we don’t know each other yet. Let’s get to know each other a little bit better. Let’s see if we work to work on this project together. You do this, I’ll do this on and it be their side fails to do it in the way the other side wants. Nobody gets in trouble. I mean, that’s just your your own thing. If you feel like there’s something more to it and it’s more urgent, it’s like, you know, we’re about to, you know, get to the point where we seriously might have to curtail. Our service is to this group of people. Um, and we know you’re also serving them, but in a slightly different way. Is there something we can do to help strengthen our ability to continue our service of of this group of beneficiaries through some sort of thing that we do collaboratively, you know? Can we do it jointly? Are there any efficiencies that we can have if we coordinate our activities together and in this case, one party might be or both parties might be a little bit dependent upon the other party meeting their obligations because they failed to do it, what the other party could could not be able to do their job either. In that case, maybe a simple sort of contract would be involved. T make sure that we’ve got it binding, that we owe this obligation to each other, um, and will formalize it in a contract. Um, all the way to if we know that this organization may not make it, but we want their programs. Um, and both parties want to say this single program that is essential there might be a transfer, an asset transfer of programs, intellectual property associate with the programs of employees that were working on the programs they might shift toe work for. The new employers of the program is housed in two different entities that would be some sort of asset transfer agreement and merger might be kind of at the very end of that spectrum of where we think it’s in the best interest of both organisations. It might not be that one would go away, but we think that there’s so much synergy. And after really thoughtful discussion and due diligence, we think we’re gonna be more much more powerful in delivering our mission, our common missions together rather than apart.

[00:48:10.33] spk_0:
It sounds like some legal help may be appropriate here if we’re gonna enter into some kind of collaboration with another non profit.

[00:48:59.57] spk_3:
Yeah, I like the idea, and this is a little self serving, because I but I like the idea of Brown wears in early, so you can. They can give you kind of you all of the options menu, if you will. Sometimes merger consultants, which I think are absolutely necessary as well, can come in there, and they may be trying to attain their goal. Eso if their merger consultant very thinking merger kind of because a surgeon think surgery is the response to a health issue. That’s the tool they know for the more experienced consultants who deal with these array of options. You know, if you if you’re sure you have a consultant like that, they’re probably gonna get get you far down the path as well. But the lawyer might be able to just sort of add those little tips on and steer you away from certain traps at the beginning. You don’t have to hire the the lawyer to do kind of full blown due diligence surfaces off day one, Um, but bringing them in early might lead you down the right past.

[00:50:06.66] spk_0:
There’s some psychosocial aspects to this to, like, ego and trust. We’re we’re gonna have to put aside our ego if we’re going to, if be willing to admit that we can’t continue on our own, um, and trust, you know, even if even the most stringent contract still requires trust between between the parties because no, no contract can envision everything. And if there isn’t trust going into a contract, I think you’re I think you’re doomed even with one that’s well written. So there’s some interpersonal aspects to this do

[00:50:43.06] spk_3:
absolutely, um, and trust. But to the extent you can verify, so make sure you know the individuals that you’re putting trust in, You know, when coffee meeting is great, but you’re gonna want to know that person more. You’re gonna want to know what their culture is more since culture is going to be really important in any kind of collaboration, whether there’s a culture fit if you don’t know, you know who the people are on the other side that are suddenly gonna be working together with your organization’s people. Um, that that could be a huge risk factor that you have to know how, how this is going to blend together

[00:51:08.40] spk_0:
so that if you do have the luxury of time, neither neither non profit is failing and in crisis. Then, you know, basically your advice was, hold hands before you get married, take things slowly, and then maybe you can expand the collaboration as you see whether the cultures match whether the objectives are being met. Are we actually delivering better service is or more service is Have we saved money? So, you know, have some of these goals been met cause a lot of times they’re not.

[00:51:44.66] spk_3:
I like that, tony. And so when organizations are operating both in a position of strength, even if one is bigger and what color that works out really nicely. So you can you can hold hands and get closer before you finally decide what ultimate step you want to take together. Um, so that’s what I prefer. I know, especially in these times, that may not be the reality for many organizations.

[00:51:50.56] spk_0:
What do you want to alert listeners to around this topic? Gene,

[00:51:56.86] spk_2:
I think one

[00:53:20.05] spk_3:
thing is not to be scared and not to get lost in not only your personal ego, which may mean for some people. Well, if we merge, I’m not gonna be a board member anymore because they’re the existing or surviving organization, has a board, and maybe they’re willing to take on a couple of us from the smaller organization. Um, but I’m I may not be part of that, but I’m not gonna let that drive my decision as to whether to merge or not. Because that’s now That would be about me, not about, you know, the organization and its mission. Um, the same thing goes with the name. So you know, often times people are, you know, deals get killed and mergers because the smaller organization or the disappearing organization is not willing to let go of the name. Um, And, yes, you could negotiate around naming. Keeping your name is a program and having some sort of of recognition on the website of the merged entity. But some people are so locked in on it, they’ll fight tooth and nail to make sure that their name is standing out as, like, part of the same merged entity’s name. So they combine both names, and it’s really clunky, and it just doesn’t really make sense. But, um, people get lost in that and start to make it a power play of, like, who could negotiate and exercise the most power in this transaction rather than what is in the best interests of our mission on both short term and long term.

[00:53:41.35] spk_0:
Okay. And again, merger, of course, being the extreme possibility for for collaboration. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um, if you feel comfortable, we can leave it there. Gene, You all right?

[00:53:44.77] spk_3:
Yeah, I’m good. I’m good.

[00:53:47.95] spk_0:
Okay. Okay. Jean Takagi, find him in, uh, neo law group dot com and at G Tack and Gene talk to you in a couple weeks for the 500 show.

[00:53:56.36] spk_3:
I’m so excited for you.

[00:53:57.90] spk_0:
Thank you. Back cheese did. Thank you very much, Jeanne. So long.

[00:54:02.24] spk_3:
Okay, but

[00:55:34.44] spk_0:
next week, non profit radios. 5/100 show. It’s our 5/100 show and 10th anniversary. Live music, Lots of guests and giveaways. Send me your story. How did you get into non profit work? Hardly anyone chooses this as a career. How did you get in? Well, read the top three stories on the air. You’ll be preserved forever in our 500 show, and you’ll win a bag of Cure a coffee. Be with me next week for the 5/100 non profit radio. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers wegner-C.P.As dot com by Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non profits? Tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant her mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non profits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo. Our creative producer is clear. Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz managing stream shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez Mark Silverman is our red guy on this Music is by Scots with me next week for non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great