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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. We have a listener of the week. Jessica foresight she’s a loyal listener gets my insider alert each week and she’s pregnant, expecting between october twenty eighth and november second, some people will do anything to expand the non-profit radio audience. Thank you so much for that. Jessica is co founder and executive director of the harold hunter foundation. Congratulations on your new listener, you know, on your new baby, and congratulations on being our listener of the week. Jessica forsythe. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with dental no genesis. If you tried to gun me up with the idea that you missed today’s show sexual harassment in non-profits it’s everywhere our community is no exception. Attorney lisa bronner provides legal perspective for women and organizations. She’s, a partner at perlman and pearlman in new york city on tony’s steak too. I learned something from my mom’s death responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant also by wagner. See piela is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com you’re not a business you’re non-profit apple it’s accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit and debit card processors you’re passive revenue stream tony dahna slash tony tell us sexual harassment the most recent revelations and national attention started with you producer harvey weinstein, then the california state legislature, where one hundred fifteen legislators, staffers and lobbyists signed an open letter of complaint. The next i saw was screenwriter and director james toback, who has over three hundred women accusing him. I know one last october, the access hollywood tape embarrassed candidate donald trump about two years ago, many women came out against bill cosby bring it back to this week, a celebrity chef john besh, and a celebrity journalist, mark halperin, are incriminated both resigned, their positions it’s everywhere. I think we need to talk about this in non-profits the guardian dot com has apiece dated ten twenty seventeen, titled he was a senior manager in a global charity. I was eighteen when he assaulted me here in the u. S los angeles times article is usc fund-raising executive leaves post amid sexual harassment investigation that’s from ten eleven seventeen his name is david correra. I’d like your stories and comments to be part of our conversation today. You can call the studio at eight seven seven for a tow for one two oh eight, seven, seven for a tow for one two oh, or treat us with the hashtag non-profit radio hashtag non-profit radio. We’re also on facebook live on the twenty martignetti non-profit radio page working on getting that up right now, let’s bring in lisa broner, my guest for the hour she’s, an attorney and partner at prominent perlman law firm in new york city. Her focus is employment law advising and representing employers in workplace law related matters, but she also has advice for employees, volunteers and board members. The firm is at prominent perlman dot com it’s p r l p r l they’re brothers spelled same way could be different could one with an year one with d a but it’s not p r l and they’re at tax exempt lawyer lisa runner welcome. Thank you. Thanks for coming to the studio. I’m delighted to be here, tony. Thank you very much. Um what? What what’s? Your sense of the prevalence of sexual harassment in non-profits matter-ness unnecessarily numbers, but a cz somebody practicing in the in the area. What? What? What’s your field for this. I think the issue effects non-profits just a zit effects for profits. The issue of sexual harassment is an issue dealing with an abuse of power. So when you have you have situations of power dynamic, there are potentially situations where sexual harassment may arise. Yeah, it’s exploitation of power in a relationship right is unequal power in the relationship yeah, there can be co worker there can be there can be co worker sexual harassment. There can be conduct that’s unwelcome. But what are the things that you’re describing our situations where there is a power dynamic and an abuse of power and justice for-profit organizations may not have policies addressing the issue non-profits as well may have situations where they do not have policies or procedures that address that address, the topic and that provide a mechanism to address it. Okay, okay, we’re going. We’re going to be talking from the organization perspective. Also the individual perspective. I did get some comments on the website and by email eso i’ll be sharing those throughout you. Know, but let’s, i’d like to start with prevention. Ah, now, i know you do a lot of training in that area for non-profits what? Let’s talk about the policy. There ought to be a policy on sexual harassment. Yes, but what should be in it? What tell tell us. So. A policy regarding sexual harassment should first of all, not be limited to sexual harassment, but all kinds of unlawful harassment adjustment. That’s based on someone’s legally protected category could be race religion categories that various laws recognized as worthy of legal protection, orientation, sexual orientation, orientation, different things like that. Okay, so the policy should set out examples of what sexual harassment, what kinds of conduct could constitute sexual harassment, welcome physical conduct, verbal conduct, unwelcome visual conduct. Visual things that could be pictures and posters could be pornography in the workplace. So the policy should set out what kinds of things give example so that employees and their supervisors understand about what kinds of things could caught could constitute sexual harassment to give examples of the type of behavior that the organization prohibit. Yeah. What are we talking about? Basically, i mean, this is what i’m not. Asking. You mean, essentially. What are we talking about? Talking? What kind of conduct behaviors are we talking about here? Okay. All right. So the posse should give examples of what it is. Okay, that policy should also have a complaint procedure and tell employees where they need to go. Who they should contact specifically like here’s. The phone number here is the address of email. Maybe address if it’s an off site location here’s the person’s name. I mean, not just contact a supervisor that sounds inadequate. Well, it may be contact. Contact a supervisor or contact your supervisor and contact. Human resource is okay. Sometimes the policy we will include a phone number or an email, but not always the case. It may be. Contact the contact the human resources department. Go contact the director of human resource is okay. Contact in the event that’s it’s, your supervisor who’s engaged in who you believe has violated the policy. Contact another supervisor and and or contact human resource is so in other words, you’re giving you’re giving the position or the title of the of the person to be contacted and where to go and what the avenue is. In order to make a complaint, so it was important to have the complaint procedure and it’s also very important that there is a policy that prohibits retaliation. The law prohibits retaliation. We’re gonna talk about that right now, find to bring it up because part of policy. But, yes, we’re going to get to a situation where someone feels that they were retaliated against on that’s illegal, right, exactly. That’s, illegal and it’s, a very important, very important area to train on and to have a policy about, because sometimes the complaint itself, maybe merit list and what ends up happening is theirs, then retaliation and that’s also unlawful, and that can also get an organization. Yeah, now we’re devolving. Situation is devolving badly, right? Yeah, okay. So that’s so there should be policies. And also there should be postings in the workplace regarding the various agencies at at the federal and state level. If the organization’s covered under the federal laws that prohibit discrimination, there should be postings in the workplace letting employees no what they’re what their rights are with respect to filing a complaint externally. The hope is that the organization has a policy that prohibits sexual harassment and a complaint procedure so that it can be addressed internally and early before before ish shoo escalates. How prevalent are these policies? I’m hoping i’m sure it’s not a hundred percent e should have i know sure that’s the normative what’s the reality, or what do you do? You see that there rocking a lot of places, i see that there can be gaps, that that there may not always be policies in place, and or they haven’t been kept up to date with changes in the law. They’re also should be a policy that addresses even bystander obligation. So if you see something even upleaf sees something, even if even if they don’t feel that they are that the conduct is directed towards them. That they should be reporting it. They should be reporting it, using the complaint procedure that it’s an important thing for others who observed violations of the organization’s policy to report it. Because that’s, the way tio prevent these things from occurring, you’re with escalators, your witness to something you know, that’s. A lot of what’s in the press is a lot of people who are aware stood by, oh, you know, we’re quiet about it, and rumors were, you know, circulated, but never anything official. Buy-in dahna i’m thinking of the cases in aa in hollywood, especially okay. Let me, uh, let’s uh, let’s. Take a break just for a minute. If you’ll indulge me. It’s time for a break pursuing how do you find your existing donors? Who are hiding in your file? Who are primed for upgrade after you find them? How do you? Deep in your relationships? Pursuance free webinar is finding hidden gems lurking in your file webinars past it’s over it’s all gone does that matter? No, it does not. You watch the archive, they’re all archived. All the webinars are archived it’s at the non-profit radio listener landing page, which is tony dot m a slash pursuant what’s. Also there a new content paper twenty seventeen digital year end fund-raising field guide that’s a mouthful but it’s deep it’s rich with content it has to be so, which are the channels and advertising strategies that give you the highest return on investment. How can you tweak your year and campaign based on your donor’s expectations? Plus they’re going to include it includes insider tips on digital fund-raising from some of the biggest non-profits in other words, big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent you’ve you’ve heard that you’ve heard rumors. To this effect, okay, the weapon on the paper, they’re both on the non-profit radio listener landing page, tony dot m a slash pursuant capital p now back to lisa broner. She and i are talking about sexual harassment in non-profits you want to join the conversation? Eight, seven, seven, four a tw o for one tuo is the number or tweet us with hashtag non-profit radio and we’re also on facebook live. Thank you, sir. You’re welcome. Okay. All right. Yeah. All right, cool. You don’t go anywhere. I’m still he excellent. All right. I want to get our i want to get our first bonem communique in first story, first story. This one came from on email. Um, this woman is a professional fundraiser. Once i partnered with the dean and a visiting alumnus who was also a dean at another university for a cultivation dinner, he put his hand on my hand when we were at the table alone. It was very uncomfortable. I must have been barely thirty. The next day. We had meetings set up for him to meet with other university officials. And i was alone in the car with him. He put his hand on my leg. I really don’t remember the details, but i do remember thinking he was a pig. Another time and alumnus asked me out during a cultivation meeting. Of course, i declined and steer the conversation back on topic of supporting his alma mater. And finally i was working with an alumnus who agreed to make a six figure gift and ass that i pick up the check at his apartment at five p m i wasn’t thrilled with his request, but i didn’t feel like i had a choice. I went, he offered me a drink, i accepted, and then we went to dinner the following week, he contacted me and asked if i wanted to meet him again and said that, quote, i seemed sad and that he would cheer me up end quote it felt so dirty and like he believed i owed him somehow for his gift to the institution. He didn’t like it when i declined and said he was wrong that i was happily married with one with a beautiful daughter. This raises a couple of things for me. First is one woman, three times, three stories, so you know we have metoo think we hear these numbers? Ah, one woman could experience ah, harassment abuse at the hands of multiple guys. Lisa, this race is also an interesting relationship. The fundraiser donor. I mean, the donor obviously has vastly greater power than the fundraiser. Um, he raised you raise an excellent point. And that is that as the and sometimes that organizations may not be considering that’s the issue of non employees harassment of of employees and that employers khun still be liable for harassment that’s committed by non employees against their employees, employers can be liable. Yes, yes. Okay, employers can’t be libel. So it’s it’s very important that the policy, the sexual harassment policy that we were talking about, that it addresses specifically, that the organization prohibits that they’re prohibition of against sexual harassment includes harassment of their employees, job applicants and employees by non employees. So interesting. You just brought in job applicants to yeah, job t they have nuances that the law see, this is why we have experts. Okay? Job applicants are covered as well as employees. Okay? I’m sorry. I want to point that out. Yeah, and could be volunteers, board members. It could it. Could be boardmember zoho could be donors. It could be other non on ploys that could be it could be a vendor who comes on promises. Okay, okay. Who’s, who’s sexually harassing an employee. All right, so our policy needs to make sure that it’s covering not on ly harassment by employees, exactly against other employees, but also that it’s covering harassment by not employees against employees and that the organization has a plan for how they’re going to address those situations. Okay, depending on what the situation is, the other thing, this reasons for me now and i want to make explicit that hyre for purposes of tony martignetti non-profit radio today we are assuming one hundred percent truth and validity in the stories that i’m going to be reading that’s not how the law works that’s not how an investigation would work, but it’s my show. So for the for today, we’re taking these all at face value as truth. Okay, um, so that raise that because i’m going to like, nit pick a little bit. And i want to see if this makes any difference to you. Some of these three story is that the woman shared we’re pre gift, and one was post gift. The gift had already been made. It was a week after the gift had been made out. Does that? Does that make any difference to you in a analysis of whether the power still exists, whether they could still be sexual harassment? It doesn’t make it doesn’t it doesn’t make a difference. And you raised a good point our allegations for this year’s auction to spot them like a student in love, but i can’t answer any of them that’s why you’re here so, uh s so yes, allegations that’s allegations and your ask mother there’s difference between what creek after posting three ideas is that we recognize that the nature of the relationship has a has a power imbalance, and that the donors in a position of giving or taking away and and the employees, although their employment is not is not is not governed by that. So when we talk about the power dynamic, we’re talking about a supervisor and employees but the employees maybe feeling well. This’s a donor, it’s, a big donor for the organisation, it puts me in an awkward situation when really what the employees should be saying whether it’s a donor or or a vendor coming on premises because it’s not really about the power and balance when you’re dealing with non employees. It’s it’s if that employee believes that they’re they’re being sexually harassed, that it’s an unwanted, unwelcome sexual advance, then they should be telling their employer about what the situation is. Okay, this is what happened to them. Your question was doesn’t matter whether its pre gift or post gift, it doesn’t matter. The point is, is that if it’s unwelcome conduct that’s really, what the focus is if it’s unwelcome conduct, then that’s something they should be reporting to their employers so that them employer can address that with the donor. Okay, very good. Excellent. Thank you. Setting the second spot, the issues, but i’m not. No, it says it was you. That was a very hard question about gift to public. And we think that woman for sharing for sharing her stories. Thank you very much. Let’s. Talk about some training. So we we we have a policy whatsoever. We have. Ah, lisa bronner approved policy. All right. It’s it’s. Bonified has everything it should training onboarding employees onboarding board. Members again, all all focused on prevention. We want to stop these things. Altum yeah, from from happening what we were doing, our training, i think training is probably one of the best investments and non-profit can make training for its for its employees, for supervisor, separate training for supervisors because the supervisor’s thie actions that the supervisors take can result in the organization being strictly liable. So separate training for supervisors and also and training for employees. And i don’t see this, but i think it’s a very good idea for organizations to be providing us part of their on boarding for board members, providing training on what the organization’s policies are regarding sexual harassment and retaliation, okay, you said, you’re not seeing that, but it’s a good idea. Yeah, alright, so well, there’s a lot of good idea it so this is important. So ah, organisations you know you’re getting you’re getting free advice here have onboarding your board members include training on the not only the organization sexual harassment policy but prevention, recognition of the of the of what’s inappropriate, i would say that that is part of the policy. What about from the boardmember perspective? How? About if let’s take a small organization, there isn’t an hr person, um, small organisation for five people and it’s the ceo who, ah, someone a woman believes is is engaged in harassing behavior doesn’t feel that she could reported anywhere in the office goes to a boardmember what’s a boardmember how does a boardmember react to that? I think the board should should have. There should be some mechanism. As i said, there really needs to be a policy for a small organization on on how how to address them that may be the board decides they’re going to bring in a they’re going to bring in a consultant, someone to investigate someone with experience investigating such claims, and then report to the board that person’s findings what? So that would be a part of a policy, i guess, how it’s going, how the investigation is going to be conducted? Absolutely. The sex harassment policy could indicate that not only here’s our complaint procedure, but once you complain how we’re gonna handle it, there’s going to be a prompt and thorough investigation, which an employer has a legal obligation to dio both a prompt and thorough investigation there’ll be an investigation doesn’t need to be done internally and and often times an organization will decide to go external so that they have an independent person who’s investigating the complaint, and then the results of that investigation will be reported to that employees the employees always also has the right to go externally. There are government agencies where they can make complaints of sexual harassment, whether they go, if they’re covered by the federal law, they can go to the sea and if they’re if the organization is covered, i should say, if the if the organization is covered by the federal law because there have to be fifteen or more employees, they could go to the federal agency that enforces certain employment opportunity commission the way we’re gonna get into going into some of that on the state and local also what? How about in the moment? Okay, i want to cover the employees and also the person to whom it’s reported what i say. It is the ceo. So in the employees in the moment it’s happening in the workplace. Something inappropriate has just happened in the lunch room. It just happened right now and i feel that i’m the female feels that i’ve been abused, harassed? What do i do right now? It’s happening right now? Well, really the best thing for someone to dio when they feel that there’s unwelcome conduct is toe let the person know who engaged in that conduct, that the conduct is unwelcome immediately immediately. Sometimes sometimes the person isn’t aware of what they said. Maybe they are, but sometimes they’re not that whatever is being said is unwelcome, and the employees should tell that person it’s always that’s. The best first step is to tell the person that the conduct is unwelcome. Just using those words what you just did, what you just said is really inappropriate, and i don’t like it. Yeah, it’s okay, okay. I’m trying to empower people all right in that moment. Okay? So call it out immediately. Called out immediately. Or sometimes if somebody’s processing it and is taken aback. Yeah, i read a lot that right? I didn’t know how to react. I was frozen. I didn’t. Yeah. Okay, then, when they are able to be in a emotional state to have that conversation, to tell the person that it’s unwelcome and it needs to stop immediately so that that that’s a first best step, and then to follow whatever the complaint procedure is about how to report that those kinds of things what is what is the organization’s complaint procedure? Sometimes they don’t feel comfortable. Person doesn’t feel comfortable going to that person directly. I mean, the best way to tio have something stop is to tell that person that it’s unwelcome, right? But that could be hard going back. Let’s say i was she was frozen in the moment. Five minutes later, the last person she wants to see is that guy. So so then go to the next step, which is? Follow the complaint procedure. Yes. Okay. What if there is no complaint procedure? Thank goto. Go to another supervisor. In other words, if it’s your supervisor, if it’s an employee supervisor who’s engaging in the conduct goto another her supervisor find any supervisor to address it and have that supervisor step in to stop. Teo, stop the behavior. Okay, excellent. Now you’re the supervisor. You’re the you’re the you’re the supervisor in the office. Someone has just come to you. It just happened three minutes ago. I didn’t know what to do i got myself out of the situation? I mean, i can’t remember all the details, but i do remember that he touched me this way. What do you, as the supervisor do, what do you say? What do you do in that moment? It just happened. So the supervisor it’s going to depend again on this, on the particular facts of of the organization, and what, how big they are in terms of what what are the resource is they have so in an organization that has a human resource, is person and where the policy and procedure is contact, human contact, human resource is they will go to human resource, is that that supervisor should go to human resource, is immediately immediately, and tell them this has been reported to may, okay. I want you to hold that thought we were going to come back to see it because i have to get another break. Because i got to take care of my sponsors. Okay? So ennui and or we just go out for ah, little voice over. So but i want i want you to help me remember where we are because i want to ask you what if it’s a small organization where there isn’t a policy, what does the supervisor do in that situation? Can you can you remember where we are? Please? Yes. Thank you so much. All right. It’s. Time for a break. Regular wetness. Cps there’s so much more than just cpas because they bring lots of value way beyond c p aying accounting. They do go really way beyond the numbers. Major gif ts best practices in common mistakes it’s one of their archived webinars again archive webinars. It covers five best practices and five common mistakes plus the single most important thing you can do to have a more successful major gift program. I hope that you see the value in professional training. I mean, we go to conferences. Hopefully we’re paying for professional. Education um, you know it keeps you fresh. It keeps you thinking strategically big picture on then, maybe even tactically with details, but for this one, you don’t even have to leave your office. I slurred that you don’t even have to leave your office. It’s it’s archived. Watch it right now as your desktop at your home, laying in bed. However, wherever you watch your do your professional education, do it there their major gifts webinar is that regular cps dot com click resource is than webinars apolo ce software you’re non-profit but you use accounting software made for business what’s the difference? The difference is fund accounting you need software that keeps your funds separate so that you don’t spend the literacy program grantman e on the after school recreation program so you don’t spend the free weekend lunch money on the english immersion course. So if you are using business accounting software, you’ve probably got either separate bank accounts for this purpose or you’re keeping a separate spreadsheet that keeps your fund balance is accurate. That’s where appaloosa counting comes in, it manages fundez balances inside the program inside itself self contained. I’m not an accountant and neither are you. That’s. The whole point. You want to have something that helps you do this simply so if you’re using business software for your accounting, take a look at hapless. They are at non-profit wizard dot com now for tony steak too. I did a video on something i learned so far from my mom’s death earlier this month. And that is about the importance of end of life planning for my mom. It was in a residential hospice before that she was in home. Hospice, huh? Thankfully, with the help of enormously smart and compassionate social workers, we were able to figure out all these these transitions and what service was best. But my advice is to think about these things before you have a crisis before you need them. So end of life planning buy-in it worked out okay for my mom, but things could be smoother if you if you spend some time up front, you’ll find my video at twenty martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s take two. I definitely got to do the live listener love because there’s vast amounts of it. I’m not even gonna shout out by language anymore. Just let’s, just start at the top of the list that that sam gave me. Santiago, chile, port au prince, haiti, haiti. We’re thinking about you. Ah, germany federal, argentina. You were with us last week, federal. Thank you. Somewhere in the uk. Dahna whether it’s, england, scotland, ireland and wales eso no, no presumptions uk welcome can’t see which country iran is with us also bringing it back into the united states. Carol stream, illinois multiple new york, new york i appreciate that. Thank you. Right here on the island. Staten island, new york is with us. Thank you, staten island live! Listen, love all these places. Tampa, florida! Woodbridge, new jersey, woodbridge! So consistent you’ve been hanging in there, i’m going to make, you know, make woodbridge listen, if you identify yourself from woodbridge, i will make you listen to the week you’re being very consistent. Boston, mass, cambridge, mass. Portland, oregon. Woodbridge, virginia live, listener love tto all those places, as well as orilla in ontario, canada. Live listener love to you and the podcast pleasantries, tar over twelve thousand listeners throughout the country throughout the world. Really, what i’m saying? That’s podcaster worldwide, of course, throughout the world listening on your own time and your own device thank you for being with us pleasantries to the podcast audience and our affiliate affections to the am and fm listeners throughout the country stations throughout the country. We’re not international yet on terrestrial radio am and fm maybe someday, but not there. Nationwide fifty states. Thank you so much. Affiliate affections to our am and fm listeners. All right, lisa brunner were back with her. She is a partner, attorney and partner at perlman and pearlman in new york city. If you want to join the conversation about sexual harassment in non-profits eight, seven, seven, four a tw o for one two oh, is the number eight, seven, seven, four ito for one two oh, tweet us with hashtag non-profit radio were also on facebook live on the twenty martignetti non-profit radio page. I give you a little homework assignment, but actually i do remember where we were. But let’s say i’m sorry. Let your mom oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Ah, a lot of times i don’t remember. So you’re off the hook in case you forgot. I remember we’re now in a smaller i know. You do? We’re now in a small organization without a policy, and the employee has just come right now to you as a supervisor. What do you say? What first? What do you say to her? I think the supervisor would express concerns about what the employees had expressed to the supervisor and let the employees know that they’re going tio address it if there’s not if there’s not an hr person let’s, assume their isn’t they, will they will, they will bring it to the and is still is your hypothetical still that its ceo who had engaged in the conduct urgent another supervisor? Okay, so another supervisor. So then there’s no policy, but i think the logical step would be that the supervisor then brings it up the chain of command in the absence of a policy, it would make sense to bring the complaint up the chain of command, meaning that the supervisor then goes to thie ceo and addresses it with them and the ceo and the absence of having an hr person that would be a conversation then with the board, and there may be a determination they’re going to bring in an employment attorney. To investigate the complaint and they will then be some discussion about the fact that there needs to be a policy of harassment. I was going back to the policy because it’s really a baseline is the polish should have won for god’s sake. I have get one if you don’t have one, get one for pete’s sake, just have it. What? What? You know, but we have to cover the contingency because i’m sure it’s not one hundred percent coverage of these things. As you’re well aware, the policies are not one hundred percent of non-profits right? And i would also say, get insurance, get gpl insurances, employment practices, liability and shun piela thankyou for defining that. Otherwise you’d be in jargon jail piela employment practices, liability insurance talk to your insurance carrier about ppl coverage. Yeah, ok, yeah, so that’s a good idea to and the training is is really it’s essential and not just about preventing sexual harassment but really preventing retaliation training for employees on the issue of bystander being a bystander and obligations to report violations of the policy that they see, even if they are not personally affected by what’s going on, so the training on those issues this really critical sexual harassment prevention, other kinds of preventing other types of unlawful discrimination, harassment in the workplace and preventing retaliation, which is an area that really is it is ends up getting a lot of organizations in trouble and national a large national non-profit organism nation recently settled a retaliation case for close to two million dollars earlier this year, thie allegations were, and it was it was a case that was settled. So these allegations thes were just allegations the allegations were that the organization had fired the hr director and the in house counsel after those individuals reported to the organization that they believed there were complaints of discrimination not by them, but by others. And the allegation brought by the da’s action proper the was that that those two individuals had been terminated in retaliation for having brought forward complaints by throwing down their job settlement was one point nine. Five million dollars. So the issue of although these were allegations, the issue of claims of retaliation are very important for organizations to take seriously and to prevent those those claims from arising by offering by having training for both their board and their employees. I want to bring in another story i got. This is on the web site tony martignetti dot com comment. I was working for three years in an embassy of a foreign country in the yusa. And during those same three years, i was sexually harassed by different diplomats and employees who were locally hired. I wasn’t the only one suffering from this treatment. Many of my co workers would complain to me about this behavior, and there were never any consequences. Even after talking to the perpetrators immediate supervisor or to the administrator of the embassy, we were cornered in offices. Minister would measure our breasts in front of other people. Nothing doing it private makes this behavior justifiable. But there were even witnesses of this behavior, and no one did anything about it. We’d receive sexual propositions or cat called in the office and we were all too afraid speak up because this could have consequences against us women and no consequences against the perpetrators. After three years of silence, i had had enough. So i decided to speak to the administrative minister in charge of the personnel about my problem. But although she behaved as an ally, i wasn’t comfortable enough to give her names because in the list i would have had to include my boss. I told her i was willing to start a campaign with workshops to train men about appropriate workplace behavior with female co workers. She told me to follow up and write an e mail with my ideas. Needless to say, she never responded to my email. All right, this raises a few things doesn’t status, not non-profits a foreign to foreign embassy in the us, i see a resident of resident non citizen do they have different standing? If you’re if you’re not a citizen of the us, does that matter? Well, i don’t know, i don’t know whether there are particular laws that apply to embassies, ok, better located in the united states and the rights of those individuals. All right, well, let’s, put it in or not us. If it was us organization is different if it’s a different it’s a different situation, okay, let’s, put it in a us non-profit it’s a resident non citizen? Do they have any lower level of standards? And they haven’t, and they’re working for us organization that’s my hypothetical here, you know, here in the united states, then they would still be protected by our law by their own employees and our the laws prohibit discrimination against employees depending on like i said, there are federal we didn’t really go into it, but they’re federal, state and local laws and those laws in terms of who’s covered which employers air covered, may depend on the size of the organization. So we there’s a federal law called title seven, and that applies to employers with fifteen or more employees. So and then states and localities have cities have their own laws prohibiting employment discrimination, and they may have ah, lower coverage. So for instance, in new york, the both the state and new york city human rights laws require generally that you have you have four or more employees in order for that organization to be covered by the loss. Okay, another thing i see here is the retaliation potential retaliation. But we talked about that illegal genitalia. Anus is retaliation. So to talk about retaliation, what it is is if if if, somebody if an employer takes some action against someone for engaging in legally protected activity. And what that means is complaining of discrimination or participating even as a witness in the complaint of discrimination, opposing discrimination, those kinds of things air protected by the law, those kinds of complaints and participation investigation. So if some action is taken against an individual because they engaged in legally protected activity, that’s considered retaliated, would raise a claim of retaliation. Yeah, i’m putting it quite simply. I mean there’s a little bit of a different standard, but that’s if if something happens to them because they did that, then that’s generally considered unlawful retaliation. That’s a that’s a good level for us for us. Okay, i don’t want to get to ah, of course it’s, illegal it’s legal education. Course. Ok, the other thing i see here is what if the organization isn’t taking action? Suppose there is a policy and they’re not following the policy as the employees. As the aggrieved employees, i don’t see anything happening now. You said i have the equal employment opportunity commission. I could go there if if the organization’s covered you talked about this in caracas may not be covered, may not be. We’re just help me out where i’ve been aggrieved, and i don’t see my organization doing anything that i’m following the policy then are following their own policy and it’s a bigger organization over fifteen employees. What do i do? So employees have the right to file a claim of discrimination, either with the federal agency, if the organization is covered, has fifteen or more employees or with their state or local state or city agency government agency that enforces the laws of that state? Or so we’re varies from state to state or not, every city may have write smaller cities are not going to have a human rights commission. What about hiring your own attorney durney value in that as the employees it’s been it’s been three or four weeks? I haven’t heard anything back. I don’t see anything happening nobody’s talked to me value in the hiring an attorney to help you enforce your rights and employees could i mean, as an attorney for organizations, i think it’s best for employees to two try to use the the processes that are in place and if they’re not able to, if if if they’re not able to avail. Themselves of those avenues, or they’ve revealed themselves reinardy altum cells, but they’re not getting out. You’re not getting a response. They may not be satisfaction, but they’re not getting response to the allegations. There’s, not there’s, not an investigation being done, and it’s not proceeding in the manner in which the policy has said then. They certainly are within their rights to teo, contact an attorney. Okay, okay, dahna, you got taken on the break again, hanging with us. Tell us credit card and payment processing. How about a passive residual revenue stream that pays you each month? You got tello’s payment processing as one of their partner non-profits. You get fifty percent of every dollar that tell us gets half of what they earn for businesses you refer to them, goes to you half fifty percent, and they also have the special offer just for non-profit radio listeners. You refer a business to them, they’re going to evaluate that businesses current fee structure around credit and debit card processing, and if tellers can’t save that company money, then they’re going to give you the organization two hundred fifty dollars, so they’re basically paying you two hundred fifty dollars for the referral charitable gift, but they’re well, i have to work that out worked out on the tax code. They’re going to give you two hundred fifty dollars, if if they can’t save your referral money in there in the processing costs. So what kind of business is that we’re talking about? I’m thinking pizza shop, nail salon, bookstore furniture, store, restaurant have judiciary, tonsorial parlor clothing shop, liquor store, bakery hardware, store gallery, dry cleaner laundromat carwash grocery store, coffee shop, your family members. Business is business. Is that your boardmember zone? Think creatively. Try to find referrals let’s. Get them to tell us and let’s see if they can save money and you can get half of every dollar the only place you’re gonna find. This two hundred fifty dollars offer is at the tell us landing page and that is tony dot m a slash tony. Tell us, tony dahna may slash tony tell us let’s, get them some referrals, okay, we are continuing our conversation with lisa brauner in studio, and i’d like to turn to another another avenue. This is this’s from vanessa chase. Vanessa chase schoolauction on her site is the story telling non-profit dot com and she says at a conference, one of the facilitators used his session to talk about how, when people make mistakes, they should be welcomed back into the community. His reason for choosing this topic was self serving. He disclosed that he sexually harassed women at the same conference the year before. You believe that you believe about somebody and was essentially forcing everyone to welcome him back. Unfortunately, the conference organizers did not know one that this had happened, and to that he was going to use this moment to essentially give himself a second chance without any consultation with the conference organizers or the broader community. As an attendee, i immediately felt unsafe. My whole body tensed up and was like that for the remaining two days of the conference. I resented that i was in voluntarily put in this environment and that there was no way for me to easily leave because we were at a retreat center. Then, of course, there were the women who were harmed by this facilitator who were in the audience and some who were not in the audience. And they had no idea that this was going to be publicly aired. This conference had no clear, transparent policies in place for people to report sexual harassment. This meant that non-profits who may have clear internal policies for this unintentionally put staff in unsafe environments where the policies were not consistent with the organizations. Lisa brunner, this is interesting. One conferences you send your employees to unconference let’s say you have the employer. You pay all the expenses. What’s the situation here. It’s. Very interesting, very interesting issue that’s being raised. And i and the i think we talked about that there is there was one conference of one organization that created a way talked about that. Yeah, we’re gonna get to that. Okay, so, it’s it’s a very interesting issue and their employer liability is that? Is that possible employer liability again? Let’s. Take my hypothetical. We approve the conference. We’re paying for the expenses for travel and meals and lodging while you’re there, it definitely is related to europe, your employment i was obviously because we would have paid for it. Is there potential employer liability courts have ruled differently on the issue of when and employers libel outside the workplace, certainly where there can be things outside the workplace, an organization sponsored event and something like that all founding where l o, where there could open house in the office, will be in the office. But we’re you’re thinking off site outside the four walls of the office, and i think in a in a situation like that, where an employee feels that they’re in an unsafe situation, they have to tell there employer about that? Because that’s not something that wth e employer could have anticipated. Agreed this was inside. It was a bizarre one. Yeah, so? So it’s it’s really kind of outside outside the scope of something that an employer may have envisioned as the courts have gone differently about you know, how far that how far the workplace extends? Okay, what if you are on a unconference organizing committee? And i also say one of things that she was alleging, not that she was sexually harassed, but simply it’s that she felt uncomfortable by by being in the presence of someone who had who had asserted that he that he sexually harassed others right at the conference in the year before. Right? Okay, you know, i don’t you know what? I’m not even a i’m not going to get into the issue, could she allege? Well, she could certainly allege could should be successful in a claim of sexual harassment. She the woman who wrote the blood post venice a change election. I was just she’s not asserting anything. I know she’s in here, but yeah, it’s interesting. Maybe legal question for me, but let’s not get into it. It’s gonna get too detailed. Let’s, take this. What if your volunteer or you’re a conference organizer? You’re in a f p association fund-raising profession you put on unconference every year. Do you have an obligation to have a policy around this around harassment, discrimination for your attendees? Well, it’s, not an employer. It’s on an employer obligation is more of a question of is the environment that you want to create for your attendees, one in which everyone is acknowledging that they’re going to abide by certain rules when they attend that conference. Well, i think that, you know, they’re certainly unwritten rules, but what are they going tohave? Are they going to have written rules? Do they wantto have everyone agree that when you, when you come to our conference, you’re going tio agree to certain behavior in certain conduct? And if you don’t, then we reserve our right to to not have you attend our conferences anymore, but it’s a different question than an employer? Sure. Okay. All right, well, i’m testing the bounds of the law. Okay? So it’s certainly it’s at least an issue for conference organizers. It’s an interesting issue. It’s an interesting issue that blogger raises. Yeah, absolutely on dh. If you’re in a tent, this is from again. This is from vanessa chase election. She suggests ifyou’re unconference attendee exercise your agency to attend conferences that are doing their best to create safe environments for women. Ask conference organizers to share their policies publicly and use part of the opening session to make sure all attendees know about the policies seems reasonable. I think i think her hers talking about employers making enquiries particularly one who’s making the enquiries particularly where, particularly where let’s say an employee had raised if an employee raised an issue and said, i felt uncomfortable because there was this person who admittedly sexually harassed attendees unconference it would be interesting for you employer to pursue whether or not there there that conference organizer has a code of conduct the conference organizer, it might not have crossed their mind, even that they’re that they’re that they’re should be one. But it’s an interesting issue there now, all on notice because it’s on non-profit radio so every every non-profit conference organizer is now on notice you can play this for them, and any reasonable conference organizer would be listening to non-profit radio, so play this, they are unnoticed on dh that’s going toe, you know, not that we’re trying to help you. I mean, i would like to help you after the fact i’d like to prevent it to begin with, but conference organizers ifyou’re non-profit you’re on notice case case closed, okay, read, stockman tweeted hey asked where would folks find a sample policy for ideas and related to this exactly read is the non-profit technology network and ten which i’m a member of any sample ward is the ceo and she’s, our monthly social media contributor, and they do have a code of conduct on it includes the non-profit technology conference as well as i think i think this would pass lisa broader muster, but i’m not gonna put you on the spot to say for sure, but where where’s it apply, elin ten spaces again intend the non-profit technology network, including but not limited to, intends online community platform online community social media, right? Yes, webinars and trainings, they say explicitly say, social media non-profit technology conference non-profit tech ground up snot and ten labs, etcetera. What? What are they talking about? Discrimination is the unjust, er, prejudicial treatment of others related to gender, gender, identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, nure, oh, typical ality or atypical ality, physical appearance, body size, age, race or religion that sound pretty comprehensive to you. It includes categories that are not legally protected in new york, but it may vary from state to state they’re being going beyond that. Well, this is, of course, then they’re they’re entitled have anything they want in their policy, right? They can put a little beyond what’s required they can put what what they would like in their policy, and then it goes on t mention behaviors that harassment includes, which i don’t have time to take off, but so you can find an example on dh, then also includes how to report ah there’s, an email talk to an intent community team member and how you identify them by their lanyard. Or you could make an anonymous report. They have a wufu site platform that you can use for anonymous reporting, so it does cover that and the answer is you, khun, look att and ten you go teo and ten dot or ge slash ntc slash at a glance with hyphens between the words slash code of conduct with hyphens in between the words thank you and ten for that contribution and lisa brought in. We have just a minute. Why don’t you leave us with the last bit of advice? Please, i think that if you’re going tohave ah, takeaway from today is the importance of having policies that prohibit sexual harassment that prohibit retaliation, prohibit unlawful retaliation and that you do trainings for your supervisors and your employees on preventing. Discrimination preventing unlawful discrimination, harassment and retaliation in the workplace and for individuals call it out because it’s not going to stop and for individuals it’s important tio to call it out and address it if the conduct is unwelcome, you let the person no employees should let the person know who is engaging in that conduct that the conduct is unwelcome. We have to leave it there, ok? Lisa broner, attorney and a partner at perlman and pearlman in new york city there perlman and pearlman dot or ge and also at tax exempt lawyer next week, labor law and in-kind gif ts if you missed any part of today’s show, i beseech you, find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuing wagner, cps guiding you beyond the numbers wagner, cps dot com apple is accounting software designed for non-profits non-profit wizard dot com and tell us credit and debit card processors you’re passive revenue stream tony dahna slash tony tell us our creative producer is claire meyerhoff sound. Liebowitz is the line producer. Thie shows social media is by susan chavez on our music is by scott stein. You with me next week for non-profit radio non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. 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