My Guest:
Stu Swineford: Purpose Driven Marketing
Stu Swineford reveals the principles and pillars of purpose driven marketing that will keep your donors engaged and wanting to support your mission. He’s co-author of the ebook, “Mission Uncomfortable.”
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Transcript for 569_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20211205.mp3
to well thank you so much for having me on today. tony [00:02:00.34] spk_1:
pleasure pleasure. Uh we got to take care of the most obvious things first before we get to your book and purpose driven marketing. You’re a mountain fella. So I mean you live in the mountains. [00:02:17.74] spk_0:
I do. We live up here at about 9000 ft up kind of west of Denver Netherland is kind of the closest biggest town. Um, but live in a little cabin that was built in the 40s here in the woods with my wife and our are slew of pets, which hopefully will not interrupt us today. [00:02:22.78] spk_1:
That’s okay. We’re very family friendly on a [00:02:25.12] spk_0:
nice family embracing, [00:02:28.94] spk_1:
not just family friendly family embracing. So 9000 ft. So you’re so you’re one of those people who follows the uh the high altitude directions on baking? [00:02:38.34] spk_0:
Absolutely, yeah. Okay. And those are actually mostly geared for Denver, which is about 50 400 ft. So we have to make even more adjustments usually when we’re doing things up here. [00:02:50.44] spk_1:
And do you need special cars or special equipment on your cars to drive at that altitude? [00:03:11.34] spk_0:
No, not really. Not really. Everything’s electronically controlled at this point, so you don’t, you don’t have to make too many adjustments. I think an older car or older motorcycles for sure you have to reach it um in order to perform well at higher altitudes, but older ones. Okay. Yeah. Are you [00:03:17.25] spk_1:
skiing there in the mountain? [00:03:31.84] spk_0:
Well, not currently. Uh we we don’t have, we got a little bit of snow last week, but it’s mostly gone. Um I believe a basin actually opened last week. So they are skiing up a little higher than we are located. Um And El Dora, which is the local ski area is threatening to open here toward the end of the month, but we’ll we’ll see what happens. It’s been a little bit warm. [00:03:42.24] spk_1:
Okay, this is uh we’re recording in mid october [00:03:46.52] spk_0:
Yes, yes. Okay. Okay. [00:03:48.66] spk_1:
Are you a cross country skier? [00:04:06.64] spk_0:
I do I know a Nordic ski and backcountry ski. I don’t go to the resorts all that much anymore. I used to be a big resort guy and um I used to ski about 80 days a year. Um and I I would say last year I probably got 20 or 25 days a but it was mostly back country skiing. [00:04:09.84] spk_1:
Okay. And cinephile. Yeah, I have a favorite director genre. [00:04:30.54] spk_0:
Well I love the Coen Brothers, they’re probably my favorite directors. Um And I used to write for film threat and I was I was a critic for a short period of time. Um And I just love watching movies and uh that’s something that I enjoy. [00:04:32.24] spk_1:
Yeah, wonderful. You have a favorite Coen Brothers movie? That’s hard. That’s hard. It’s tough. Maybe asking you a question that I couldn’t answer [00:05:06.74] spk_0:
myself many of their films um have something to be enjoyed. I would say my go to favorite when people ask is Miller’s Crossing, which was one of their earlier films um starring Gabriel Byrne. And uh it’s just a you know, it’s it’s a it’s a fun little movie but you know, I’ve watched the Big Lebowski. I don’t know how many times and um you know they have a great uh collection and selection of movies for people [00:05:46.94] spk_1:
o Brother where art thou Burn after reading these are some these are something but Miller’s Crossing that with Gabriel Byrne. I’ve I’ve seen that a few times that I think I might have that one in my collection. I’m pretty discerning about which movies actually purchase physical copies of so that I can watch them when I want to, streaming services decide that they want to have them bond for six months. And I think Miller’s Crossing is in there because that that’s uh it’s an early one but he’s uh he’s a he’s a it’s an interesting gangster um gangster profile [00:05:48.37] spk_0:
I suppose. Yeah, it’s kind of a gangster movie set in the prohibition era. Um It just has great, great dialogue and uh and it’s you know, it’s not for the whole family for sure, but but it’s definitely a good one if people haven’t checked that one out, [00:06:03.74] spk_1:
Hudsucker proxy [00:06:04.70] spk_0:
to great name [00:06:08.24] spk_1:
that often. But paul newman [00:06:10.64] spk_0:
uh tim Robbins, tim Robbins. Exactly. [00:06:29.14] spk_1:
Yeah. The circle, it’s a circle for kids. It’s for kids, you know, circle, you know kids so alright, so coen brothers fans, you will get that, you’ll get that reference if not you can watch the Hudsucker proxy and uh and you’ll get it all right. Um So purpose driven marketing, why don’t we just define this thing. What is this first? [00:08:35.64] spk_0:
Well purpose driven marketing in our minds is here it relishes um is really marketing that has a goal in mind. And then also we really try to work with purpose focused leaders who have something bigger than just making money in mind for their organization. So whether they’re a 1% for the planet partner or a nonprofit or a B corp um, those are the kinds of people that we really like to work with and, and uh, you know, I sort of, I guess I grew into this over the years, uh, At relish. We started in 2008 and in about 2013, my business partner and I started thinking, Wow, you know, we’re, we have this opportunity as entrepreneurs and business owners to, to really create something different than just uh, an organization or a business that that is here to make money. We can actually kind of mold this in, in our own fashion. And so we started looking for ways to create some giving back here at relish and that was when we joined 1% of the Planet Colorado Outdoor business alliance organizations like that, that colorado non profit association that enabled us to, to start to kind of codify or, or formalize are giving back as well as, you know, really meet and um, and be able to serve those people who are doing a lot more in the world than just, you know, funding, uh, the owners next vacation home or yacht or something like that. Um, in terms of, of conversion focus. However, you know, that’s another piece of the purpose component um, is really making sure that people’s marketing is aligned with a goal and that we’re helping them achieve that goal. So it’s, it’s just a thoughtful way of approaching the whole marketing space um where it becomes, you know, something that you’re investing in. Um it’s not just an expense, it’s something that’s actually creating a return on that investment. Mhm. [00:08:41.24] spk_1:
And you, you focus a lot on building relationships through purpose driven marketing. How, just as an overview, we’re going to get to that, we’re gonna get to your four pillars, but how do you see purpose driven marketing contributing to relationship building? [00:10:11.74] spk_0:
Well, we look at marketing is really, that’s all marketing is, is building relationships and really, instead of attempting to sell all the time, um, we see marketing that works as as an opportunity to create a relationship, to build a connection as opposed to just trying to sell something. Um You know, usually in in any kind of transactional relationship, um you have to get to know the person trust like them. Um and then move on to kind of being able to try and, and by and then hopefully people move into the kind of this repeat and refer proportion of their, of their life cycle. Um But ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s all about creating this atmosphere where people, um not only know who you are, but but really get to like you and to trust you in order to uh take that next step, which is to try and to buy your services or your, you know, your organization’s um, uh, benefits that they’re bringing, that you’re bringing to the, to the marketplace and to the nonprofit space in particular. Um, and so that’s that’s kind of how we see marketing is is just really creating opportunities to build upon um interactions and create a really strong, solid relationship with people. [00:10:27.84] spk_1:
And you take time to, hey, make sure people are not thinking of marketing as a pejorative, you know, that it’s that it’s I don’t know that you use the way, I don’t think you use the word sales. E but you know, you uh you’re you’re making sure people are, are looking at marketing the way you and Aaron are, and not the way, you know, an amazon looks at looks at marketing. [00:10:44.44] spk_0:
Well, it’s interesting even in the amazon space, but the short answer is yes. But even in the amazon space, they’re trying to create opportunities for um for relationship building. So there is there are some [00:10:56.86] spk_1:
lessons to be learned from [00:12:06.84] spk_0:
the Yeah. And that’s how we just kind of see marketing. So whether that’s selling a widget where you have to convince somebody that this is a durable, um, you know, tool that will solve whatever problem it is that they’re trying to solve. Um, you’re you’re always trying to build a relationship there. You’re always trying to create an opportunity for somebody to get to, to know that company, um, understand why they’re doing things and uh, I believe that that this transaction is going to result in a positive, um, outcome. And, and whether that’s a long term kind of approach where you are trying to convince a donor to give, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars to your organization or a very short term relationship where you’re just trying to convince somebody to, I don’t know, buy a soda because they’re thirsty. Um, you know, it is all about creating that, uh, ability and opportunity to, um, for, for people to start to know like, and trust you in that in that connect and um, and convert face of the, of the scenario. [00:12:33.14] spk_1:
Yeah. Know like, and trust Trust is when you can build trust with folks and uh, then, uh, there are so much more likely to open your, open your messages, uh, follow your calls to action, you know, when there’s trust with the brand and the work, that’s uh, that’s a pinnacle in a relationship. [00:13:00.84] spk_0:
Yeah. And ultimately relationships are built through interactions over some period of time. And so whether those interactions are, you know, commercials that are aired, um, or emails that are sent and uh, questions that are answered. Um, or even, you know, social media outreach and uh, back and forth when you can create when you can create that interaction, when you can create that, that back and forth, that then solidifies and builds and strengthens strengthens that relationship. And so those are the kinds of things that we help our clients and partners facilitate through marketing. [00:13:21.94] spk_1:
It’s interesting the back and forth, not just the one way, you know, messages going from us to those, we’re trying to build trust with [00:13:27.91] spk_0:
a little more [00:13:29.10] spk_1:
about how it’s how it’s two way communication, not not one way. [00:15:02.54] spk_0:
Yeah, so that’s actually one of the things we see people, one of the bigger mistakes people make in the social media space is that they use social media as kind of a soap box where they get on and they present their, you know, whatever whatever it is of the day, whether it’s a sales pitch or even a an item of value, but they fail to try to build those relationships. Um and you know, social media is at its core a social component which requires back and forth, which requires um you know, companies and their, you know, they’re the people who are working with them to go out and and create opportunities to start those conversations on social media. So instead of simply going to your particular platform and posting something, um you know, really one needs to be out there um interacting and and commenting and posting on other people’s materials as well as posting on on your own materials and answering questions. Um google reviews is actually a great, another great example of a place where people have an opportunity to create a back and forth, whether that’s a positive review or a negative review that someone is left about your organization. Um, you know, making sure that you answer that and even try to create, you know, opportunities for back and forth. So ask open ended questions. Um, you know, comment on how beautiful that photo was on instagram and then ask them a question about what inspired them to take that or what camera settings they used or you know, whatever the whatever the the thing is that inspires those conversations and and gets people going back and forth, that tends to create those opportunities to build a relationship. [00:17:41.34] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, content creation, content is king. The medium is the message birds of a feather, flock together. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. So well the first two of those apply, we don’t, we don’t need the birds and the apples, but content content if you need content in the coming year, for for what? For digital, for print for an annual report for some other report to the board content. If you need content for your social channels, they can do all this turn to, they’ll help you hone your messaging. And as far as press, get your messages out in the channels that you’ve heard me talk about like Chronicle of philanthropy new york times, Washington post Detroit, free press etcetera cbs market watch. So content. If you need content for whatever purpose, think about turn to you need help get this off your plate there. The pros they write it, they’ll, they’ll get it off your shoulders because your story, is there mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now, back to purpose driven marketing. Okay. In that spirit, the reason I was attracted to you reached out to you to be a guest is you posted something interesting on linkedin. So I looked a little further in linkedin and you had a phone number that folks could pick up and say, you know, if you want to chat, reach, reach me here, uh, let me chat with the guy, I’m gonna pick up. Sorry, uh, like five minutes after I had read your post and did a little research, I said, I’m gonna talk to the guy. So you created an opportunity for people to reach you. Uh, uh, you know, and I grabbed it and I thought, first of all, it’s very unusual for someone to put a phone number and it didn’t go to google mail. It was your voicemail or google voice. I should say. It was your it was your it was your voicemail. And uh, you know, you called me back and we chatted. So you’re you’re you’re walking, you’re walking your [00:17:51.84] spk_0:
walk. Well, I hope so. You’re walking your talk, I guess. I hope so. That’s one of the challenges of, of running uh running a marketing agency as we have the cobbler’s kids challenge a lot of the time where we we can do a really good job for our clients. But we tend to uh neglect our own outreach in our own websites and those types of things. I’m happy that that that that actually worked. Um we’ll do this. So yeah, it was great. I’m curious. Which do you remember which post it was that that you found compelling? [00:18:24.54] spk_1:
No, it was too long ago. Okay. No, it was over a month ago that we first connected. I don’t know if it was about your book, but was it could have been the release. Had your book just come out recently or No, [00:18:32.95] spk_0:
the book dropped in uh february last. All right [00:18:48.74] spk_1:
then. I knew you had when I well, I knew you had written a book when I called you because I left you a message saying I’d like to have you on the show and talk about the book. Um I don’t remember. I don’t know. It’s [00:18:50.19] spk_0:
okay. I was just curious to know if you if you remember what what thing I said that that made you want to pick up the phone. There was you know, [00:19:14.64] spk_1:
you you know, I think you might have commented on something that I commented on to. Uh and so obviously I appreciated your comment. I think I think it was that I think it was a comment not a post of yours because you weren’t weren’t connected. So I wouldn’t have seen your. Yeah, I think it was I think you commented on something that I commented on. [00:19:54.94] spk_0:
So so there’s a really great example of of how that relationship building peace can actually function to create another relationship opportunity. Um where you know, if if I were just using my, you know, linkedin platform to to espouse information and hopefully give some value driven stuff you and I never would have actually or it would have been less likely for us to have connected because uh what it took was me going out to someone else’s post and commenting about giving them some more information or saying nice post or whatever it was that I said um that they gave you got me in front of you. So um that’s a really good example of how one can can leverage that power of social media to to expand their network. [00:20:07.37] spk_1:
It works so be social [00:20:15.94] spk_0:
exact conversation. It is socially, it’s all about creating conversations. Yes. Let’s [00:20:16.73] spk_1:
talk about your four pillars of of purpose driven marketing. Why don’t you just give us an overview and then uh and then let’s go in and I, you know, I got some things I want to talk about for each one but [00:20:28.29] spk_0:
acquaintance [00:20:29.42] spk_1:
with them first. [00:23:23.94] spk_0:
Sure. So the four pillars as we see them in in terms of kind of this this client or customer lifecycle um is really starts with attraction. And that’s how do you get people to come to your properties, whether those are your social properties or your website or your storefront, How do you get out there in the marketplace and uh, and enable people to find you? And then we move to the bond phase, which is really the, the next step of that conversation where you’re not only have you brought people in. So you’ve, you’ve created an opportunity for them to find out about you, but now you’re creating this opportunity for them to actually get into the fold to, um, to kind of be part of your inner network. And um, and the connection phase a lot of times requires um, either a value exchange of some, some sort of information. Um, you know, what we’re really trying to do is help build those relationships and help not only, you know, take these people who have now found you and enable them to uh, to have an ongoing relationship, an ongoing conversation created. Um, so that’s kind of that bond phase and then the next phase is kind of this convert phase. And that would be the sails easiest part of this uh kind of system where essentially this is where we get people to either try or buy from you and in the nonprofit space, this would be, you know, getting someone to either, um, you know, really take advantage of something that you’re offering. So if you think about the nonprofit stakeholders, typically there are donors, there are volunteers, There are actual um, recipients of the of the nonprofits benefits. And then, um, you know, there could be kind of sponsors and and people in that frame as well. So how do we get those people to actually take some sort of an action either make a donation, volunteer, some of their time, etcetera. And then in the final phase, which is kind of this inspire phase, um, that’s where we’re trying to get people to either escalate their engagement. So you take a one time donor and get them to become a, you know, a monthly donor. You get someone who perhaps is a monthly donor or maybe as a one time donor and get them to bring their their business in as a corporate sponsor. Um, you get someone to escalate um, and repeat. And then also evangelize for your organization and get out there and really refer you, uh tell people that they should be a part of this organization as well, um or um, or even just shouting it out on social media about, you know, some great volunteer experience that you had. So those are kind of the main four pillars. And again, kind of heard me talk about them in a different framework earlier where, you know, we’re really trying to get people to um, to know like trust tribe. I repeat and refer those are kind of the seven components of those four pillars. Okay, [00:23:49.64] spk_1:
so before we dive into each of these, these four, but let’s let folks know how they can get your, your ebook mission uncomfortable. [00:23:52.67] spk_0:
Sure they can, they can download it online. It’s, I decided to not publish it in a printed format at least this current time trying to save some trees. Um, but it is available at mission uncomfortable book dot com. [00:24:19.54] spk_1:
Okay. And we’ll make sure we, I say that again at the end. So so attract connect bond, inspire when, when we’re, when we’re doing attraction, we’re attracting folks. You talk a lot you and Aaron talk a lot about personas, you’d like to rely on those, explain the value of how they work, what their value [00:25:50.84] spk_0:
is. Yeah. So persona is, it can also be called an avatar. It’s essentially an ideal audience. So when you start to think about who you’re trying to attract to your organization. Um one of the first things we recommend doing is really doing some exploration in terms of personas and and really getting an understanding of the motivations for your target audience groups, um, what their demographics might look like. Um, you know, what, what makes them tick and why would they want to come. Uh, and, and uh, you know, connect with and participate with your organization. And so when you think of all, there’s usually more than one persona. Um, you know, a volunteer might be a completely different person than a donor for example. Um and and then a recipient of your of your benefits, would you know, potentially be even even different persona. Um So build what you can do is build out as many of these as you think you need to in order to get a feel for who it is that you’re kind of trying to reach a lot of times when we build out personas for our clients and partners, we really create a visual um you know, person that people can wrap their arms around. We name them, we find a stock photo that’s representative of representative of that person. You [00:25:59.33] spk_1:
go to photos even I’ve heard of naming, giving, giving them names, but you go to photos. [00:27:58.94] spk_0:
Yeah. Picture somebody. Okay. Yeah. Trying to create as much of uh of something that you can wrap your arms around when you’re talking about this audience group. Um and you know, I would say don’t go overboard, don’t try to overthink it to start because you know, you can get kind of in the weeds with persona development where All of a sudden you have 15 different personas that you’re trying to to reach and it just becomes confusing. So one of the things that we would recommend is just starting simple and just think about, who you know, if you were thinking of an ideal volunteer, just one of them and we know that there are many who would that person be um you know, would they be uh woman between the ages of 35 42 who has um, had a career and now has, you know, maybe has a little bit more free time in that career or perhaps even works for a company that offers uh, you know, matching for volunteer opportunities. Um, does she have Children? Is she married? Does, what does she, what does she look like? Who is this person? And you know, maybe her name is Jill and you can just really start to talk about and think about who Jill is when you are planning your marketing outreach. So does she play and find information and spend a lot of time on facebook or is she more on instagram? Is she out? Um, you know, in certain places in the local community where you can can reach her farmers markets for example, or um, you know, or perhaps other types of, of events where where would you need to go to run into and connect with uh, with Jill and get her to understand who you are and a tractor to your organization. And so it really that persona development really helps you map out your marketing strategy so that you’re not spending a bunch of time trying to attract, you know, boomers by posting on Tiktok. [00:28:30.34] spk_1:
And when you’ve so identified the the folks that you want to connect with, that, that’s what the purpose of the personas is your identifying different different categories of people you’re trying to to connect with and you, you want to focus on delivering some content for them to connect with. And you have lots of examples of blogs and social networks and podcasts and white papers, etcetera. Talk about, you know, matching the content I guess with with with for your personas. [00:29:48.04] spk_0:
Yeah. So when we talk about content, we really start with trying to create value exchange here. So this is actually the first transactional piece of the transactional relationship that you’re that you’re attempting to build. Um, the end goal may be to get uh, you know, a donation or get somebody to exchange their time to volunteer with you, which is something of value. But at the onset, um, it’s really about getting into this kind of try um, trust and try phase um, there’s a little bit of the like phase in there as well, but at this point they know who you are now. You’re really trying to get them to like trust and try your organization. So in this phase of the relationship, um, you know, coming up with things that might be beneficial to this person. So for example, um, Leave No Trace is a, is a nonprofit organization that is trying to get people to have a better understanding of how they can interact with our open spaces and natural places more effectively. One of the things that I’ve seen from them in the past are are these great cards that have the leave no trace principles. And and so they’re right there handy. You can have them attached to your pack or in your pocket um that that really give people [00:30:16.38] spk_1:
presumably you don’t you don’t leave these cards behind at your [00:30:18.88] spk_0:
campsite. Yes, exactly. These come with you uh the [00:30:21.61] spk_1:
letter with the card. [00:31:32.24] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah, but but a, you know, a convert phase, you know, kind of opportunity here might be um either an online version of that card. So people could give, you know, give them their email in order to get this card, get access to this information or even uh, you know, provide your address and they might send you on. I don’t know exactly what leave no trace is doing with these these types of informational items. But that might be uh, you know, a tactic that they could use to get people to feel like there had been a value exchange and just to continue building that relationship and and essentially convert them from a stranger to. Now there’s somebody that you kind of know, um you have some information about them. Uh Now you can actually ask them questions through email. You can ask them to donate. You can ask them, you can, you can escalate that relationship by giving them other items of value. Um that’s where that connect phase comes into play. That then you kind of escalate that uh, into the, into the bond face. [00:31:39.84] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. so let’s let’s spend a little time with with connecting, you talk [00:31:40.60] spk_0:
about the I’m sorry, Bond Bond comes first and then the connect [00:31:44.98] spk_1:
so, you know, in the book, you have a track and then [00:31:48.57] spk_0:
yes, you’re right, I apologize. Yeah, I got it, I got it all confused. My own, [00:31:55.75] spk_1:
you are a co author of the [00:31:56.91] spk_0:
book, right? I am Aaron, [00:32:03.64] spk_1:
you’re not a ghost writer to the I mean he’s not your ghostwriter? No, you actually did contribute. Okay, so, we can wrap it up right now, if you’re not bona fide, you know, then that’s the end. No, [00:32:10.31] spk_0:
your bona fide. Okay, so [00:32:17.14] spk_1:
yeah, so connect um you talked about the consistency principle uh that people like to as you’re connecting to get people to say yes or taken action, say a little about that, I like that consistency principle. Can you define that for me? [00:34:50.14] spk_0:
Yeah, so the consistency principle is really getting opportunities to to make sure that you’re being um intentional and consistent in your outreach. Um one of the things that we find people do is they tend to go in sprints and they’ll get really excited about about building a relationship or or creating opportunities for outreach and then they’ll do it for a little while and then they’ll drop off for for months at a time and um you know, essentially creating an intention and creating a commitment to uh to outreach and to these activities and then sticking with that is something that we we talk a lot about one of the things that people tend to do is they set their goals too high and they say, okay, I’m gonna, I’m getting all excited about this, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do a blog post a day and uh and then they look at that that goal that they’ve set and they say, I can’t do this and we have this tendency, people have this tendency to think that That missing a goal is a total failure as opposed to, you know, you got part of the way there. Um and so what tends to happen is if we set a great big goal and then we start missing that goal, we think, okay, well, I might as well do nothing because, you know, zero is as big a failure as 75%. So one of the things in terms of goal setting that we really recommend is starting slow, creating an opportunity to create a smart goal, something that you can actually achieve. Um and uh and and start to feel what a wind looks like and then, you know, as you’ve built that consistency, go ahead and elevate that goal a little bit as you as as you get better at it. So I’d much rather see uh one of our clients, um, you know, set a goal of of one blog post a month, if they’re not doing any, let’s do one a month, get good at that until that feels easy. And then then we can talk about doing two a month or, or one a week or even, you know, a couple, a couple of week. Um, but what tends to happen is people get really excited about things and say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna knock this out of the park and then they don’t, they haven’t built those consistency, um, habits and so things kind of fall by the wayside and then they end up doing nothing. But [00:36:48.53] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator. I’m recruiting for the january class right now. If you’d like to join me, like to learn together step by step how to launch planned giving at your non profit planned giving accelerator dot com has all the information that you need. Of course, you could be in touch with me through the site, ask any questions you might have. The course is six months, you’ll spend an hour a week learning how to launch your planned giving program and not only learning from me, learning from your classmates, the other members who are in your class with you. The peer to peer support is phenomenal. The way folks open up, they ask questions about challenges. They’ve got, you know, I haven’t tried everything. So we, it’s open to the, to the class to help each other. I mean, I’ve got my ideas, but everybody’s got theirs too. And you get that peer support, One member says she calls it her safety net playing giving accelerator. So if you’re not doing planned giving or if you have like a more abundant plant giving program, which is really no program, you know, deep down, if you admit that there’s really just not a program. If you want to take a look at plan giving accelerator, I’ll get you going launch your program and grow it between me and your peers. It’s all at planned giving accelerator dot com. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for purpose driven marketing and what’s happening in our relationship as we’re, we’ve moved from a trac to connect what’s happening there. [00:38:28.22] spk_0:
Yeah. So in that in that attract phase, you’re essentially hanging your, your sign out and saying, hey, we exist, come check this out. And, and then in the connect phase you’re really trying to provide valuable information that enables people to, um, to take an action that gets them kind of deeper into the fold. So that’s one thing about email. People think for example, and particularly the nonprofit space email is an amazing tool. Um, yes, we all get a ton of junk email on a daily basis. And we also get a lot of non junk email but depending upon who your audience is and for non profits a lot of times that audience, particularly in the donor seat are kind of these people in the boomer, um age range, that demographic really still does rely very heavily on email. It’s kind of one of their chief modes of communication. Um They email is one of these places that feels like you have some control over it, you can kind of choose to read it or not read it, you can unsubscribe if you if you would like. So there’s a little bit more of a feeling of control with email and then also um this is a place where people have actually raised their hand. So it’s not just social media where you know maybe you got into somebody’s feed through some algorithm or or magically or got referred in, there’s a sense of people have actually taken an action. So that’s why we find list building and trying to create that connection and trying to get people into your um your your email list is a really valuable um component of this kind of four pillar system. [00:38:45.72] spk_1:
And then bonding [00:40:07.11] spk_0:
is next. Yeah bonding is really where your solidifying that relationship and you’re providing ongoing. Again, consistency is key here, ongoing opportunities for value driven uh exchange uh systems within the within the bond phase. So um we talked a little bit about this earlier in terms of creating opportunities to um to share information to share physical items to uh you know to provide people with solutions to their problems and in the nonprofit space this gets a little um a little I guess nebulous, it’s a little hard to figure out how uh to create these types of value exchange opportunities, but this is where mhm there are a few things that go into come into play here. One is if you can create an opportunity to position your nonprofit as kind of the guide in this story where your constituent your donor, your volunteer, even even the people that the beneficiaries are the heroes of the story and you’re just facilitating this opportunity for somebody for a donor to be the hero in this beneficiaries story that then creates this kind of experience in our minds where we we start to see ourselves as the as that hero and um and really feel compelled to continue uh kind of serving that role in that in that kind of relationship. [00:40:57.51] spk_1:
You have a tip in the book. I think it’s mostly related. Well, no, not not necessarily to websites, but I’ll use the website example you say if some if you pre ask someone, if they want something, you get them to sit and they say yes, then at the next step they’ll be more likely to do the thing that you actually want them to do because they said you sort of you got them in the habit even though it was only one step, one step removed. You got them in the habit of saying yes, so they’re more likely to do the real thing that you want. Can you flesh that out a little bit? It was an interesting yeah strategy. [00:41:10.11] spk_0:
It seems counterintuitive. I think that most people who have studied marketing have heard they reduce the number of clicks to purchase for example, [00:41:13.22] spk_1:
don’t yeah, it’s possible. [00:43:20.10] spk_0:
Yeah. And and this is where I would encourage nonprofits to try different things. But um the example that we believe I used in the book um was essentially instead of giving people a form to fill out immediately, give them a yet an actual action to take. So if you say would you like more information instead of just having, you know, this is an example instead of just having a form there where I put in my name and my email address and click, click yes, go ahead and say would you like more information? Yes, no and when people click yes, then it takes them to a page with the form on it and again it’s a little counterintuitive but the conversion rate on that form if you, if you put it behind that yes, no kind of gate yeah, it can actually be higher than the conversion if you just put the form out in front. Um there’s a interesting psychological thing that happens and one of my coaches, his name is Townsend Wardlaw. He’s a really great guy. Um he always asks per michigan before providing any sort of information. So for example tony if I had just sent you my book out of the blue without you asking for it. The likelihood that you would have done anything with that would be a much lower than if if I said, hey, would you like my book and you say yes and then I say okay and I’ll send it to you. Um, similarly Townsend always says ask permission, you know, would you like, would you like my help with that? Would you like me to share that with you? Um, you know, I have a story that I can tell about this, would you like to hear it? And, and that’s priming the pump for you to say no, I’m not interested. Which saves us both a bunch of time because now you don’t have to listen to me ramble on about a story that you weren’t interested in. And it also primes that pump for, for you to be even more receptive to the story once it’s once it’s delivered. So it works in, you know, not only in just marketing, but even in just conversational um, interactions. [00:43:43.80] spk_1:
I’ve had folks talking about permission based soliciting for, for gifts, you know, in a couple of days, could I be in touch with you about investing in whatever you know, the work or the program that’s there of interest to them could be in touch, you know, in a few days on that. Yeah. Ask their permission. Exactly exactly in line with what you’re saying, you know? Yeah, that’s their permission and then be in touch in a couple of [00:44:42.89] spk_0:
days assuming they said yes. Yeah. That’s, and actually a really great kind of cold call, um, tactic where instead of, you know, cold calls are very disruptive. So in the sales in the sale space. So for any executive directors out there, who are, who are, you know, soliciting donations from, from either, you know, big big corporations or, or, you know, seeking to get larger donors into the fold. One of the things that is more effective is to acknowledge that this call has been disruptive and try and get something on the calendar as opposed to trying to pitch them in that moment. And so similar, similar thing. You know, can I, can we, can we talk on Tuesday at, at three? Um, instead of saying, well, I’ll just jump right into the, to this thing that you didn’t actually ask me to pitch. [00:44:47.87] spk_1:
Yeah. And you didn’t know what’s coming. Yeah, permission based I guess. I think Seth Godin has been talking about permission based marketing for years and it’s pervaded other areas. Yeah, [00:45:00.35] spk_0:
absolutely. [00:45:06.79] spk_1:
Yeah. Well, you know, why not? And you’re right. If the person says no, then you’re saving both of you the anguish of going through a, going through an exercise that neither one of you, it’s gonna be fruitless for one of you and the other person isn’t the least bit interested. So yeah. You want to do something that’s an interesting and fruitless. [00:45:34.89] spk_0:
Yeah. And you’ve also created, you’ve created an exchange. Um, in terms of a back and forth. And so that’s, you know, that works as a um, you know, there’s a conversation that’s happened there. You listened. So you, you know, it positions you just a lot differently. [00:45:37.12] spk_1:
You listened and you honored the person’s choice. So I I called you here. I am calling Tuesday at at four o’clock. Yeah. Alright. We’re inspiring. Next to [00:48:12.27] spk_0:
separation inspiring. So yeah, after after this bond phase where you’ve actually gotten somebody to become a volunteer or make a donation or um, yeah, get get on your list of corporate sponsors or something like that from, from a non profit standpoint. Um The inspire phase is really where we’re attempting to get people to take another action. So um, there’s an old again kind of sales adage that it’s much easier to sell to someone who’s already purchased from you than it is to sell to somebody new. Um We tend to get really excited about new relationships and new sales tend to be the thing that get people excited. How many new donors did you bring in um, last year? You know, those, those types of things get get pretty exciting. However, it’s a lot easier lift to get somebody to donate again than it is to get to somebody to donate for the first time. So in the inspire phase, uh, you know, let’s just use donors again as an example. Um We’re really trying to get people to repeat and refer. Um, so get people to become a regular donor. Um, get people to donate again. Um, you know, thinking about escalation here and and again, if you think about your, um, you’re different kind of audience types and I do some volunteer work with volunteers for outdoor colorado and they’re a great organization here in state that does a lot of trail building and advocacy, uh, for kind of outdoor spaces. And I believe the first interaction that I had with their organization was as a volunteer. And so I decided I wanted to volunteer on a project and then I became a donor. Um, so essentially they gave me opportunities to, they inspired me. Um, you know, through not only all of the fun things that we were able to do during our, our, uh, our day of digging in the dirt. Um, but also, uh, you know, just just through all of the great things that they’re doing around the state, um, inspired me to become a donor and then inspired me to take an additional volunteer step to become a crew leader. And so essentially they’re doing a really good job of kind of escalating that engagement um, through this inspire phase. They also, um, you know, encourage all of their volunteers and all of their donors to share, uh, share their stories to, uh, spread the word about their organization. So that’s that kind of refer phase. So, you know, really [00:48:30.47] spk_1:
like you’re doing right this moment. [00:49:22.77] spk_0:
Exactly, yep, yep. Using them as an example of, of a great organization. Um, so that’s what, that, uh, you know, that’s where that kind of inspire phase comes into play. You know, getting people to evangelize about your organization, Getting people to, to, you know, share stories to come back to move from, you know, just giving you $10 at some events to giving you, you know, $10 per month. Um, so, you know, just getting really creative and staying in touch with people. That’s the thing that tends to happen is, um, you know, people fall off on the, on those activities because they’re, they are a little less, um, exciting than bringing a new donor into the fold. Um, but you know, really making sure that you have a referral program, you have something to get people to leave reviews, you get something, um, for people to share their stories and have a campaign associated with that, that keeps people keeps you at top of mind and then keeps people kind of coming back for more. [00:49:54.57] spk_1:
You make the point of thinking about this as investment, not expense, not to look at the cost of a new cost of a donor acquired or cost of sale or something like that, but as an investment in the organization. And, and, and these relationships, [00:51:17.76] spk_0:
we hear a lot in the nonprofit space would, particularly when it bumps up against marketing that any dollar that I spend that isn’t spent directly toward the core mission is a dollar taken away from that core mission. And we’d like for people to approach marketing for non profits a little differently where they see non they see their marketing uh, as an as an investment in that core message and an opportunity to expand and um amplify that message so that it becomes, it enables them to reach even more people. Um, and so that slight mindset shift can be really important when one starts to undertake marketing endeavors because, you know, it is money being, um, you know, coming out of the out of the program, but really making sure that you have to have a plan, you have goals, that they are reasonable, that you’re measuring that you’re tracking that you’re actually looking at this expense, um or this investment as uh, as something that’s going to grow your mission and and just keeping tabs on that and and making sure that you have those systems in place so that, you know that the, you know, whatever money you invested in marketing um, is creating a return on that investment. [00:51:49.96] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Please get past this insidious myth. That myth of overhead, you know that marketing is overhead and technology is overhead needless, you know, these are investments in your future. You and I are talking about investments in relationships, relationships are only going to grow and as as folks refer, you talked about repeat giving and referring as folks refer you, the relationships are going to expand beyond what you can imagine, but it takes investment. So [00:52:11.65] spk_0:
yeah, that’s why why having a system in place is so important and and that’s what, that’s one of the reasons I wrote Mission uncomfortable was to enable people to have some kind of understanding of a system in place for their marketing so that they could feel more empowered with that investment and and more comfortable with that investment that they’re making in in their outreach. [00:52:19.05] spk_1:
That’s the perfect place to leave. It’s too [00:52:21.05] spk_0:
well, thank you so much for having me on the show. Absolutely my pleasure. [00:52:43.05] spk_1:
The book is mission uncomfortable. How nonprofits can embrace purpose driven marketing to survive and thrive. You get it at mission uncomfortable Book dot com stew Schweinfurt. The studio is the practices relish studio and he and the company are at relish studio and relish studio dot com. So all right now, I’ve just said the word relish 35 times in the past two sentences. Why is it relish Studio [00:53:01.75] spk_0:
Relish Studio came about as a kind of a play on words where this is something that is that little extra spice on top that makes things extra good as well as something that we love to do. So you know, one of the things that really inspires me to work with nonprofit leaders is um just, it’s really easy to get out of bed in the morning and and work with these types of clients because we know that everybody’s out there trying to make the world a better place. [00:53:28.45] spk_1:
That’s cool. It’s a great double play. Relish the condiment Condiment studio. Alright. Relish studio dot com stew. Thank you again. Thanks very much. [00:53:36.77] spk_0:
Thanks for having me on [00:54:20.45] spk_1:
my pleasure. Next week is a social enterprise for you. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great
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[00:01:45.54] spk_1:
Yeah. Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with scabs if you invested me with the idea that you missed this week’s show purpose driven marketing stew. Swinford reveals the principles and pillars of purpose driven marketing that will keep your donors engaged and wanting to support your mission. He’s co author of the book, Mission uncomfortable On Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator were sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o here is purpose driven marketing. Yeah, it’s my pleasure to welcome for his first time on nonprofit radio stew Swinford. He is a mountain fellow, cinephile and co founder of Relish Studio, a digital marketing firm that creates conversion focused marketing solutions for nonprofits with Aaron Rixon, he’s co author of the book mission uncomfortable how nonprofits can embrace purpose driven marketing to survive and thrive. He and the company are at relish studio and relish studio dot com. Welcome to nonprofit radios
to well thank you so much for having me on today. tony [00:02:00.34] spk_1:
pleasure pleasure. Uh we got to take care of the most obvious things first before we get to your book and purpose driven marketing. You’re a mountain fella. So I mean you live in the mountains. [00:02:17.74] spk_0:
I do. We live up here at about 9000 ft up kind of west of Denver Netherland is kind of the closest biggest town. Um, but live in a little cabin that was built in the 40s here in the woods with my wife and our are slew of pets, which hopefully will not interrupt us today. [00:02:22.78] spk_1:
That’s okay. We’re very family friendly on a [00:02:25.12] spk_0:
nice family embracing, [00:02:28.94] spk_1:
not just family friendly family embracing. So 9000 ft. So you’re so you’re one of those people who follows the uh the high altitude directions on baking? [00:02:38.34] spk_0:
Absolutely, yeah. Okay. And those are actually mostly geared for Denver, which is about 50 400 ft. So we have to make even more adjustments usually when we’re doing things up here. [00:02:50.44] spk_1:
And do you need special cars or special equipment on your cars to drive at that altitude? [00:03:11.34] spk_0:
No, not really. Not really. Everything’s electronically controlled at this point, so you don’t, you don’t have to make too many adjustments. I think an older car or older motorcycles for sure you have to reach it um in order to perform well at higher altitudes, but older ones. Okay. Yeah. Are you [00:03:17.25] spk_1:
skiing there in the mountain? [00:03:31.84] spk_0:
Well, not currently. Uh we we don’t have, we got a little bit of snow last week, but it’s mostly gone. Um I believe a basin actually opened last week. So they are skiing up a little higher than we are located. Um And El Dora, which is the local ski area is threatening to open here toward the end of the month, but we’ll we’ll see what happens. It’s been a little bit warm. [00:03:42.24] spk_1:
Okay, this is uh we’re recording in mid october [00:03:46.52] spk_0:
Yes, yes. Okay. Okay. [00:03:48.66] spk_1:
Are you a cross country skier? [00:04:06.64] spk_0:
I do I know a Nordic ski and backcountry ski. I don’t go to the resorts all that much anymore. I used to be a big resort guy and um I used to ski about 80 days a year. Um and I I would say last year I probably got 20 or 25 days a but it was mostly back country skiing. [00:04:09.84] spk_1:
Okay. And cinephile. Yeah, I have a favorite director genre. [00:04:30.54] spk_0:
Well I love the Coen Brothers, they’re probably my favorite directors. Um And I used to write for film threat and I was I was a critic for a short period of time. Um And I just love watching movies and uh that’s something that I enjoy. [00:04:32.24] spk_1:
Yeah, wonderful. You have a favorite Coen Brothers movie? That’s hard. That’s hard. It’s tough. Maybe asking you a question that I couldn’t answer [00:05:06.74] spk_0:
myself many of their films um have something to be enjoyed. I would say my go to favorite when people ask is Miller’s Crossing, which was one of their earlier films um starring Gabriel Byrne. And uh it’s just a you know, it’s it’s a it’s a fun little movie but you know, I’ve watched the Big Lebowski. I don’t know how many times and um you know they have a great uh collection and selection of movies for people [00:05:46.94] spk_1:
o Brother where art thou Burn after reading these are some these are something but Miller’s Crossing that with Gabriel Byrne. I’ve I’ve seen that a few times that I think I might have that one in my collection. I’m pretty discerning about which movies actually purchase physical copies of so that I can watch them when I want to, streaming services decide that they want to have them bond for six months. And I think Miller’s Crossing is in there because that that’s uh it’s an early one but he’s uh he’s a he’s a it’s an interesting gangster um gangster profile [00:05:48.37] spk_0:
I suppose. Yeah, it’s kind of a gangster movie set in the prohibition era. Um It just has great, great dialogue and uh and it’s you know, it’s not for the whole family for sure, but but it’s definitely a good one if people haven’t checked that one out, [00:06:03.74] spk_1:
Hudsucker proxy [00:06:04.70] spk_0:
to great name [00:06:08.24] spk_1:
that often. But paul newman [00:06:10.64] spk_0:
uh tim Robbins, tim Robbins. Exactly. [00:06:29.14] spk_1:
Yeah. The circle, it’s a circle for kids. It’s for kids, you know, circle, you know kids so alright, so coen brothers fans, you will get that, you’ll get that reference if not you can watch the Hudsucker proxy and uh and you’ll get it all right. Um So purpose driven marketing, why don’t we just define this thing. What is this first? [00:08:35.64] spk_0:
Well purpose driven marketing in our minds is here it relishes um is really marketing that has a goal in mind. And then also we really try to work with purpose focused leaders who have something bigger than just making money in mind for their organization. So whether they’re a 1% for the planet partner or a nonprofit or a B corp um, those are the kinds of people that we really like to work with and, and uh, you know, I sort of, I guess I grew into this over the years, uh, At relish. We started in 2008 and in about 2013, my business partner and I started thinking, Wow, you know, we’re, we have this opportunity as entrepreneurs and business owners to, to really create something different than just uh, an organization or a business that that is here to make money. We can actually kind of mold this in, in our own fashion. And so we started looking for ways to create some giving back here at relish and that was when we joined 1% of the Planet Colorado Outdoor business alliance organizations like that, that colorado non profit association that enabled us to, to start to kind of codify or, or formalize are giving back as well as, you know, really meet and um, and be able to serve those people who are doing a lot more in the world than just, you know, funding, uh, the owners next vacation home or yacht or something like that. Um, in terms of, of conversion focus. However, you know, that’s another piece of the purpose component um, is really making sure that people’s marketing is aligned with a goal and that we’re helping them achieve that goal. So it’s, it’s just a thoughtful way of approaching the whole marketing space um where it becomes, you know, something that you’re investing in. Um it’s not just an expense, it’s something that’s actually creating a return on that investment. Mhm. [00:08:41.24] spk_1:
And you, you focus a lot on building relationships through purpose driven marketing. How, just as an overview, we’re going to get to that, we’re gonna get to your four pillars, but how do you see purpose driven marketing contributing to relationship building? [00:10:11.74] spk_0:
Well, we look at marketing is really, that’s all marketing is, is building relationships and really, instead of attempting to sell all the time, um, we see marketing that works as as an opportunity to create a relationship, to build a connection as opposed to just trying to sell something. Um You know, usually in in any kind of transactional relationship, um you have to get to know the person trust like them. Um and then move on to kind of being able to try and, and by and then hopefully people move into the kind of this repeat and refer proportion of their, of their life cycle. Um But ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s all about creating this atmosphere where people, um not only know who you are, but but really get to like you and to trust you in order to uh take that next step, which is to try and to buy your services or your, you know, your organization’s um, uh, benefits that they’re bringing, that you’re bringing to the, to the marketplace and to the nonprofit space in particular. Um, and so that’s that’s kind of how we see marketing is is just really creating opportunities to build upon um interactions and create a really strong, solid relationship with people. [00:10:27.84] spk_1:
And you take time to, hey, make sure people are not thinking of marketing as a pejorative, you know, that it’s that it’s I don’t know that you use the way, I don’t think you use the word sales. E but you know, you uh you’re you’re making sure people are, are looking at marketing the way you and Aaron are, and not the way, you know, an amazon looks at looks at marketing. [00:10:44.44] spk_0:
Well, it’s interesting even in the amazon space, but the short answer is yes. But even in the amazon space, they’re trying to create opportunities for um for relationship building. So there is there are some [00:10:56.86] spk_1:
lessons to be learned from [00:12:06.84] spk_0:
the Yeah. And that’s how we just kind of see marketing. So whether that’s selling a widget where you have to convince somebody that this is a durable, um, you know, tool that will solve whatever problem it is that they’re trying to solve. Um, you’re you’re always trying to build a relationship there. You’re always trying to create an opportunity for somebody to get to, to know that company, um, understand why they’re doing things and uh, I believe that that this transaction is going to result in a positive, um, outcome. And, and whether that’s a long term kind of approach where you are trying to convince a donor to give, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars to your organization or a very short term relationship where you’re just trying to convince somebody to, I don’t know, buy a soda because they’re thirsty. Um, you know, it is all about creating that, uh, ability and opportunity to, um, for, for people to start to know like, and trust you in that in that connect and um, and convert face of the, of the scenario. [00:12:33.14] spk_1:
Yeah. Know like, and trust Trust is when you can build trust with folks and uh, then, uh, there are so much more likely to open your, open your messages, uh, follow your calls to action, you know, when there’s trust with the brand and the work, that’s uh, that’s a pinnacle in a relationship. [00:13:00.84] spk_0:
Yeah. And ultimately relationships are built through interactions over some period of time. And so whether those interactions are, you know, commercials that are aired, um, or emails that are sent and uh, questions that are answered. Um, or even, you know, social media outreach and uh, back and forth when you can create when you can create that interaction, when you can create that, that back and forth, that then solidifies and builds and strengthens strengthens that relationship. And so those are the kinds of things that we help our clients and partners facilitate through marketing. [00:13:21.94] spk_1:
It’s interesting the back and forth, not just the one way, you know, messages going from us to those, we’re trying to build trust with [00:13:27.91] spk_0:
a little more [00:13:29.10] spk_1:
about how it’s how it’s two way communication, not not one way. [00:15:02.54] spk_0:
Yeah, so that’s actually one of the things we see people, one of the bigger mistakes people make in the social media space is that they use social media as kind of a soap box where they get on and they present their, you know, whatever whatever it is of the day, whether it’s a sales pitch or even a an item of value, but they fail to try to build those relationships. Um and you know, social media is at its core a social component which requires back and forth, which requires um you know, companies and their, you know, they’re the people who are working with them to go out and and create opportunities to start those conversations on social media. So instead of simply going to your particular platform and posting something, um you know, really one needs to be out there um interacting and and commenting and posting on other people’s materials as well as posting on on your own materials and answering questions. Um google reviews is actually a great, another great example of a place where people have an opportunity to create a back and forth, whether that’s a positive review or a negative review that someone is left about your organization. Um, you know, making sure that you answer that and even try to create, you know, opportunities for back and forth. So ask open ended questions. Um, you know, comment on how beautiful that photo was on instagram and then ask them a question about what inspired them to take that or what camera settings they used or you know, whatever the whatever the the thing is that inspires those conversations and and gets people going back and forth, that tends to create those opportunities to build a relationship. [00:17:41.34] spk_1:
It’s time for a break. Turn to communications, content creation, content is king. The medium is the message birds of a feather, flock together. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. So well the first two of those apply, we don’t, we don’t need the birds and the apples, but content content if you need content in the coming year, for for what? For digital, for print for an annual report for some other report to the board content. If you need content for your social channels, they can do all this turn to, they’ll help you hone your messaging. And as far as press, get your messages out in the channels that you’ve heard me talk about like Chronicle of philanthropy new york times, Washington post Detroit, free press etcetera cbs market watch. So content. If you need content for whatever purpose, think about turn to you need help get this off your plate there. The pros they write it, they’ll, they’ll get it off your shoulders because your story, is there mission turn hyphen two dot C. O. Now, back to purpose driven marketing. Okay. In that spirit, the reason I was attracted to you reached out to you to be a guest is you posted something interesting on linkedin. So I looked a little further in linkedin and you had a phone number that folks could pick up and say, you know, if you want to chat, reach, reach me here, uh, let me chat with the guy, I’m gonna pick up. Sorry, uh, like five minutes after I had read your post and did a little research, I said, I’m gonna talk to the guy. So you created an opportunity for people to reach you. Uh, uh, you know, and I grabbed it and I thought, first of all, it’s very unusual for someone to put a phone number and it didn’t go to google mail. It was your voicemail or google voice. I should say. It was your it was your it was your voicemail. And uh, you know, you called me back and we chatted. So you’re you’re you’re walking, you’re walking your [00:17:51.84] spk_0:
walk. Well, I hope so. You’re walking your talk, I guess. I hope so. That’s one of the challenges of, of running uh running a marketing agency as we have the cobbler’s kids challenge a lot of the time where we we can do a really good job for our clients. But we tend to uh neglect our own outreach in our own websites and those types of things. I’m happy that that that that actually worked. Um we’ll do this. So yeah, it was great. I’m curious. Which do you remember which post it was that that you found compelling? [00:18:24.54] spk_1:
No, it was too long ago. Okay. No, it was over a month ago that we first connected. I don’t know if it was about your book, but was it could have been the release. Had your book just come out recently or No, [00:18:32.95] spk_0:
the book dropped in uh february last. All right [00:18:48.74] spk_1:
then. I knew you had when I well, I knew you had written a book when I called you because I left you a message saying I’d like to have you on the show and talk about the book. Um I don’t remember. I don’t know. It’s [00:18:50.19] spk_0:
okay. I was just curious to know if you if you remember what what thing I said that that made you want to pick up the phone. There was you know, [00:19:14.64] spk_1:
you you know, I think you might have commented on something that I commented on to. Uh and so obviously I appreciated your comment. I think I think it was that I think it was a comment not a post of yours because you weren’t weren’t connected. So I wouldn’t have seen your. Yeah, I think it was I think you commented on something that I commented on. [00:19:54.94] spk_0:
So so there’s a really great example of of how that relationship building peace can actually function to create another relationship opportunity. Um where you know, if if I were just using my, you know, linkedin platform to to espouse information and hopefully give some value driven stuff you and I never would have actually or it would have been less likely for us to have connected because uh what it took was me going out to someone else’s post and commenting about giving them some more information or saying nice post or whatever it was that I said um that they gave you got me in front of you. So um that’s a really good example of how one can can leverage that power of social media to to expand their network. [00:20:07.37] spk_1:
It works so be social [00:20:15.94] spk_0:
exact conversation. It is socially, it’s all about creating conversations. Yes. Let’s [00:20:16.73] spk_1:
talk about your four pillars of of purpose driven marketing. Why don’t you just give us an overview and then uh and then let’s go in and I, you know, I got some things I want to talk about for each one but [00:20:28.29] spk_0:
acquaintance [00:20:29.42] spk_1:
with them first. [00:23:23.94] spk_0:
Sure. So the four pillars as we see them in in terms of kind of this this client or customer lifecycle um is really starts with attraction. And that’s how do you get people to come to your properties, whether those are your social properties or your website or your storefront, How do you get out there in the marketplace and uh, and enable people to find you? And then we move to the bond phase, which is really the, the next step of that conversation where you’re not only have you brought people in. So you’ve, you’ve created an opportunity for them to find out about you, but now you’re creating this opportunity for them to actually get into the fold to, um, to kind of be part of your inner network. And um, and the connection phase a lot of times requires um, either a value exchange of some, some sort of information. Um, you know, what we’re really trying to do is help build those relationships and help not only, you know, take these people who have now found you and enable them to uh, to have an ongoing relationship, an ongoing conversation created. Um, so that’s kind of that bond phase and then the next phase is kind of this convert phase. And that would be the sails easiest part of this uh kind of system where essentially this is where we get people to either try or buy from you and in the nonprofit space, this would be, you know, getting someone to either, um, you know, really take advantage of something that you’re offering. So if you think about the nonprofit stakeholders, typically there are donors, there are volunteers, There are actual um, recipients of the of the nonprofits benefits. And then, um, you know, there could be kind of sponsors and and people in that frame as well. So how do we get those people to actually take some sort of an action either make a donation, volunteer, some of their time, etcetera. And then in the final phase, which is kind of this inspire phase, um, that’s where we’re trying to get people to either escalate their engagement. So you take a one time donor and get them to become a, you know, a monthly donor. You get someone who perhaps is a monthly donor or maybe as a one time donor and get them to bring their their business in as a corporate sponsor. Um, you get someone to escalate um, and repeat. And then also evangelize for your organization and get out there and really refer you, uh tell people that they should be a part of this organization as well, um or um, or even just shouting it out on social media about, you know, some great volunteer experience that you had. So those are kind of the main four pillars. And again, kind of heard me talk about them in a different framework earlier where, you know, we’re really trying to get people to um, to know like trust tribe. I repeat and refer those are kind of the seven components of those four pillars. Okay, [00:23:49.64] spk_1:
so before we dive into each of these, these four, but let’s let folks know how they can get your, your ebook mission uncomfortable. [00:23:52.67] spk_0:
Sure they can, they can download it online. It’s, I decided to not publish it in a printed format at least this current time trying to save some trees. Um, but it is available at mission uncomfortable book dot com. [00:24:19.54] spk_1:
Okay. And we’ll make sure we, I say that again at the end. So so attract connect bond, inspire when, when we’re, when we’re doing attraction, we’re attracting folks. You talk a lot you and Aaron talk a lot about personas, you’d like to rely on those, explain the value of how they work, what their value [00:25:50.84] spk_0:
is. Yeah. So persona is, it can also be called an avatar. It’s essentially an ideal audience. So when you start to think about who you’re trying to attract to your organization. Um one of the first things we recommend doing is really doing some exploration in terms of personas and and really getting an understanding of the motivations for your target audience groups, um, what their demographics might look like. Um, you know, what, what makes them tick and why would they want to come. Uh, and, and uh, you know, connect with and participate with your organization. And so when you think of all, there’s usually more than one persona. Um, you know, a volunteer might be a completely different person than a donor for example. Um and and then a recipient of your of your benefits, would you know, potentially be even even different persona. Um So build what you can do is build out as many of these as you think you need to in order to get a feel for who it is that you’re kind of trying to reach a lot of times when we build out personas for our clients and partners, we really create a visual um you know, person that people can wrap their arms around. We name them, we find a stock photo that’s representative of representative of that person. You [00:25:59.33] spk_1:
go to photos even I’ve heard of naming, giving, giving them names, but you go to photos. [00:27:58.94] spk_0:
Yeah. Picture somebody. Okay. Yeah. Trying to create as much of uh of something that you can wrap your arms around when you’re talking about this audience group. Um and you know, I would say don’t go overboard, don’t try to overthink it to start because you know, you can get kind of in the weeds with persona development where All of a sudden you have 15 different personas that you’re trying to to reach and it just becomes confusing. So one of the things that we would recommend is just starting simple and just think about, who you know, if you were thinking of an ideal volunteer, just one of them and we know that there are many who would that person be um you know, would they be uh woman between the ages of 35 42 who has um, had a career and now has, you know, maybe has a little bit more free time in that career or perhaps even works for a company that offers uh, you know, matching for volunteer opportunities. Um, does she have Children? Is she married? Does, what does she, what does she look like? Who is this person? And you know, maybe her name is Jill and you can just really start to talk about and think about who Jill is when you are planning your marketing outreach. So does she play and find information and spend a lot of time on facebook or is she more on instagram? Is she out? Um, you know, in certain places in the local community where you can can reach her farmers markets for example, or um, you know, or perhaps other types of, of events where where would you need to go to run into and connect with uh, with Jill and get her to understand who you are and a tractor to your organization. And so it really that persona development really helps you map out your marketing strategy so that you’re not spending a bunch of time trying to attract, you know, boomers by posting on Tiktok. [00:28:30.34] spk_1:
And when you’ve so identified the the folks that you want to connect with, that, that’s what the purpose of the personas is your identifying different different categories of people you’re trying to to connect with and you, you want to focus on delivering some content for them to connect with. And you have lots of examples of blogs and social networks and podcasts and white papers, etcetera. Talk about, you know, matching the content I guess with with with for your personas. [00:29:48.04] spk_0:
Yeah. So when we talk about content, we really start with trying to create value exchange here. So this is actually the first transactional piece of the transactional relationship that you’re that you’re attempting to build. Um, the end goal may be to get uh, you know, a donation or get somebody to exchange their time to volunteer with you, which is something of value. But at the onset, um, it’s really about getting into this kind of try um, trust and try phase um, there’s a little bit of the like phase in there as well, but at this point they know who you are now. You’re really trying to get them to like trust and try your organization. So in this phase of the relationship, um, you know, coming up with things that might be beneficial to this person. So for example, um, Leave No Trace is a, is a nonprofit organization that is trying to get people to have a better understanding of how they can interact with our open spaces and natural places more effectively. One of the things that I’ve seen from them in the past are are these great cards that have the leave no trace principles. And and so they’re right there handy. You can have them attached to your pack or in your pocket um that that really give people [00:30:16.38] spk_1:
presumably you don’t you don’t leave these cards behind at your [00:30:18.88] spk_0:
campsite. Yes, exactly. These come with you uh the [00:30:21.61] spk_1:
letter with the card. [00:31:32.24] spk_0:
Yeah, Yeah, but but a, you know, a convert phase, you know, kind of opportunity here might be um either an online version of that card. So people could give, you know, give them their email in order to get this card, get access to this information or even uh, you know, provide your address and they might send you on. I don’t know exactly what leave no trace is doing with these these types of informational items. But that might be uh, you know, a tactic that they could use to get people to feel like there had been a value exchange and just to continue building that relationship and and essentially convert them from a stranger to. Now there’s somebody that you kind of know, um you have some information about them. Uh Now you can actually ask them questions through email. You can ask them to donate. You can ask them, you can, you can escalate that relationship by giving them other items of value. Um that’s where that connect phase comes into play. That then you kind of escalate that uh, into the, into the bond face. [00:31:39.84] spk_1:
Yeah. All right. so let’s let’s spend a little time with with connecting, you talk [00:31:40.60] spk_0:
about the I’m sorry, Bond Bond comes first and then the connect [00:31:44.98] spk_1:
so, you know, in the book, you have a track and then [00:31:48.57] spk_0:
yes, you’re right, I apologize. Yeah, I got it, I got it all confused. My own, [00:31:55.75] spk_1:
you are a co author of the [00:31:56.91] spk_0:
book, right? I am Aaron, [00:32:03.64] spk_1:
you’re not a ghost writer to the I mean he’s not your ghostwriter? No, you actually did contribute. Okay, so, we can wrap it up right now, if you’re not bona fide, you know, then that’s the end. No, [00:32:10.31] spk_0:
your bona fide. Okay, so [00:32:17.14] spk_1:
yeah, so connect um you talked about the consistency principle uh that people like to as you’re connecting to get people to say yes or taken action, say a little about that, I like that consistency principle. Can you define that for me? [00:34:50.14] spk_0:
Yeah, so the consistency principle is really getting opportunities to to make sure that you’re being um intentional and consistent in your outreach. Um one of the things that we find people do is they tend to go in sprints and they’ll get really excited about about building a relationship or or creating opportunities for outreach and then they’ll do it for a little while and then they’ll drop off for for months at a time and um you know, essentially creating an intention and creating a commitment to uh to outreach and to these activities and then sticking with that is something that we we talk a lot about one of the things that people tend to do is they set their goals too high and they say, okay, I’m gonna, I’m getting all excited about this, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do a blog post a day and uh and then they look at that that goal that they’ve set and they say, I can’t do this and we have this tendency, people have this tendency to think that That missing a goal is a total failure as opposed to, you know, you got part of the way there. Um and so what tends to happen is if we set a great big goal and then we start missing that goal, we think, okay, well, I might as well do nothing because, you know, zero is as big a failure as 75%. So one of the things in terms of goal setting that we really recommend is starting slow, creating an opportunity to create a smart goal, something that you can actually achieve. Um and uh and and start to feel what a wind looks like and then, you know, as you’ve built that consistency, go ahead and elevate that goal a little bit as you as as you get better at it. So I’d much rather see uh one of our clients, um, you know, set a goal of of one blog post a month, if they’re not doing any, let’s do one a month, get good at that until that feels easy. And then then we can talk about doing two a month or, or one a week or even, you know, a couple, a couple of week. Um, but what tends to happen is people get really excited about things and say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna knock this out of the park and then they don’t, they haven’t built those consistency, um, habits and so things kind of fall by the wayside and then they end up doing nothing. But [00:36:48.53] spk_1:
It’s time for Tony’s take two planned giving accelerator. I’m recruiting for the january class right now. If you’d like to join me, like to learn together step by step how to launch planned giving at your non profit planned giving accelerator dot com has all the information that you need. Of course, you could be in touch with me through the site, ask any questions you might have. The course is six months, you’ll spend an hour a week learning how to launch your planned giving program and not only learning from me, learning from your classmates, the other members who are in your class with you. The peer to peer support is phenomenal. The way folks open up, they ask questions about challenges. They’ve got, you know, I haven’t tried everything. So we, it’s open to the, to the class to help each other. I mean, I’ve got my ideas, but everybody’s got theirs too. And you get that peer support, One member says she calls it her safety net playing giving accelerator. So if you’re not doing planned giving or if you have like a more abundant plant giving program, which is really no program, you know, deep down, if you admit that there’s really just not a program. If you want to take a look at plan giving accelerator, I’ll get you going launch your program and grow it between me and your peers. It’s all at planned giving accelerator dot com. That is Tony’s take two. We’ve got boo koo but loads more time for purpose driven marketing and what’s happening in our relationship as we’re, we’ve moved from a trac to connect what’s happening there. [00:38:28.22] spk_0:
Yeah. So in that in that attract phase, you’re essentially hanging your, your sign out and saying, hey, we exist, come check this out. And, and then in the connect phase you’re really trying to provide valuable information that enables people to, um, to take an action that gets them kind of deeper into the fold. So that’s one thing about email. People think for example, and particularly the nonprofit space email is an amazing tool. Um, yes, we all get a ton of junk email on a daily basis. And we also get a lot of non junk email but depending upon who your audience is and for non profits a lot of times that audience, particularly in the donor seat are kind of these people in the boomer, um age range, that demographic really still does rely very heavily on email. It’s kind of one of their chief modes of communication. Um They email is one of these places that feels like you have some control over it, you can kind of choose to read it or not read it, you can unsubscribe if you if you would like. So there’s a little bit more of a feeling of control with email and then also um this is a place where people have actually raised their hand. So it’s not just social media where you know maybe you got into somebody’s feed through some algorithm or or magically or got referred in, there’s a sense of people have actually taken an action. So that’s why we find list building and trying to create that connection and trying to get people into your um your your email list is a really valuable um component of this kind of four pillar system. [00:38:45.72] spk_1:
And then bonding [00:40:07.11] spk_0:
is next. Yeah bonding is really where your solidifying that relationship and you’re providing ongoing. Again, consistency is key here, ongoing opportunities for value driven uh exchange uh systems within the within the bond phase. So um we talked a little bit about this earlier in terms of creating opportunities to um to share information to share physical items to uh you know to provide people with solutions to their problems and in the nonprofit space this gets a little um a little I guess nebulous, it’s a little hard to figure out how uh to create these types of value exchange opportunities, but this is where mhm there are a few things that go into come into play here. One is if you can create an opportunity to position your nonprofit as kind of the guide in this story where your constituent your donor, your volunteer, even even the people that the beneficiaries are the heroes of the story and you’re just facilitating this opportunity for somebody for a donor to be the hero in this beneficiaries story that then creates this kind of experience in our minds where we we start to see ourselves as the as that hero and um and really feel compelled to continue uh kind of serving that role in that in that kind of relationship. [00:40:57.51] spk_1:
You have a tip in the book. I think it’s mostly related. Well, no, not not necessarily to websites, but I’ll use the website example you say if some if you pre ask someone, if they want something, you get them to sit and they say yes, then at the next step they’ll be more likely to do the thing that you actually want them to do because they said you sort of you got them in the habit even though it was only one step, one step removed. You got them in the habit of saying yes, so they’re more likely to do the real thing that you want. Can you flesh that out a little bit? It was an interesting yeah strategy. [00:41:10.11] spk_0:
It seems counterintuitive. I think that most people who have studied marketing have heard they reduce the number of clicks to purchase for example, [00:41:13.22] spk_1:
don’t yeah, it’s possible. [00:43:20.10] spk_0:
Yeah. And and this is where I would encourage nonprofits to try different things. But um the example that we believe I used in the book um was essentially instead of giving people a form to fill out immediately, give them a yet an actual action to take. So if you say would you like more information instead of just having, you know, this is an example instead of just having a form there where I put in my name and my email address and click, click yes, go ahead and say would you like more information? Yes, no and when people click yes, then it takes them to a page with the form on it and again it’s a little counterintuitive but the conversion rate on that form if you, if you put it behind that yes, no kind of gate yeah, it can actually be higher than the conversion if you just put the form out in front. Um there’s a interesting psychological thing that happens and one of my coaches, his name is Townsend Wardlaw. He’s a really great guy. Um he always asks per michigan before providing any sort of information. So for example tony if I had just sent you my book out of the blue without you asking for it. The likelihood that you would have done anything with that would be a much lower than if if I said, hey, would you like my book and you say yes and then I say okay and I’ll send it to you. Um, similarly Townsend always says ask permission, you know, would you like, would you like my help with that? Would you like me to share that with you? Um, you know, I have a story that I can tell about this, would you like to hear it? And, and that’s priming the pump for you to say no, I’m not interested. Which saves us both a bunch of time because now you don’t have to listen to me ramble on about a story that you weren’t interested in. And it also primes that pump for, for you to be even more receptive to the story once it’s once it’s delivered. So it works in, you know, not only in just marketing, but even in just conversational um, interactions. [00:43:43.80] spk_1:
I’ve had folks talking about permission based soliciting for, for gifts, you know, in a couple of days, could I be in touch with you about investing in whatever you know, the work or the program that’s there of interest to them could be in touch, you know, in a few days on that. Yeah. Ask their permission. Exactly exactly in line with what you’re saying, you know? Yeah, that’s their permission and then be in touch in a couple of [00:44:42.89] spk_0:
days assuming they said yes. Yeah. That’s, and actually a really great kind of cold call, um, tactic where instead of, you know, cold calls are very disruptive. So in the sales in the sale space. So for any executive directors out there, who are, who are, you know, soliciting donations from, from either, you know, big big corporations or, or, you know, seeking to get larger donors into the fold. One of the things that is more effective is to acknowledge that this call has been disruptive and try and get something on the calendar as opposed to trying to pitch them in that moment. And so similar, similar thing. You know, can I, can we, can we talk on Tuesday at, at three? Um, instead of saying, well, I’ll just jump right into the, to this thing that you didn’t actually ask me to pitch. [00:44:47.87] spk_1:
Yeah. And you didn’t know what’s coming. Yeah, permission based I guess. I think Seth Godin has been talking about permission based marketing for years and it’s pervaded other areas. Yeah, [00:45:00.35] spk_0:
absolutely. [00:45:06.79] spk_1:
Yeah. Well, you know, why not? And you’re right. If the person says no, then you’re saving both of you the anguish of going through a, going through an exercise that neither one of you, it’s gonna be fruitless for one of you and the other person isn’t the least bit interested. So yeah. You want to do something that’s an interesting and fruitless. [00:45:34.89] spk_0:
Yeah. And you’ve also created, you’ve created an exchange. Um, in terms of a back and forth. And so that’s, you know, that works as a um, you know, there’s a conversation that’s happened there. You listened. So you, you know, it positions you just a lot differently. [00:45:37.12] spk_1:
You listened and you honored the person’s choice. So I I called you here. I am calling Tuesday at at four o’clock. Yeah. Alright. We’re inspiring. Next to [00:48:12.27] spk_0:
separation inspiring. So yeah, after after this bond phase where you’ve actually gotten somebody to become a volunteer or make a donation or um, yeah, get get on your list of corporate sponsors or something like that from, from a non profit standpoint. Um The inspire phase is really where we’re attempting to get people to take another action. So um, there’s an old again kind of sales adage that it’s much easier to sell to someone who’s already purchased from you than it is to sell to somebody new. Um We tend to get really excited about new relationships and new sales tend to be the thing that get people excited. How many new donors did you bring in um, last year? You know, those, those types of things get get pretty exciting. However, it’s a lot easier lift to get somebody to donate again than it is to get to somebody to donate for the first time. So in the inspire phase, uh, you know, let’s just use donors again as an example. Um We’re really trying to get people to repeat and refer. Um, so get people to become a regular donor. Um, get people to donate again. Um, you know, thinking about escalation here and and again, if you think about your, um, you’re different kind of audience types and I do some volunteer work with volunteers for outdoor colorado and they’re a great organization here in state that does a lot of trail building and advocacy, uh, for kind of outdoor spaces. And I believe the first interaction that I had with their organization was as a volunteer. And so I decided I wanted to volunteer on a project and then I became a donor. Um, so essentially they gave me opportunities to, they inspired me. Um, you know, through not only all of the fun things that we were able to do during our, our, uh, our day of digging in the dirt. Um, but also, uh, you know, just just through all of the great things that they’re doing around the state, um, inspired me to become a donor and then inspired me to take an additional volunteer step to become a crew leader. And so essentially they’re doing a really good job of kind of escalating that engagement um, through this inspire phase. They also, um, you know, encourage all of their volunteers and all of their donors to share, uh, share their stories to, uh, spread the word about their organization. So that’s that kind of refer phase. So, you know, really [00:48:30.47] spk_1:
like you’re doing right this moment. [00:49:22.77] spk_0:
Exactly, yep, yep. Using them as an example of, of a great organization. Um, so that’s what, that, uh, you know, that’s where that kind of inspire phase comes into play. You know, getting people to evangelize about your organization, Getting people to, to, you know, share stories to come back to move from, you know, just giving you $10 at some events to giving you, you know, $10 per month. Um, so, you know, just getting really creative and staying in touch with people. That’s the thing that tends to happen is, um, you know, people fall off on the, on those activities because they’re, they are a little less, um, exciting than bringing a new donor into the fold. Um, but you know, really making sure that you have a referral program, you have something to get people to leave reviews, you get something, um, for people to share their stories and have a campaign associated with that, that keeps people keeps you at top of mind and then keeps people kind of coming back for more. [00:49:54.57] spk_1:
You make the point of thinking about this as investment, not expense, not to look at the cost of a new cost of a donor acquired or cost of sale or something like that, but as an investment in the organization. And, and, and these relationships, [00:51:17.76] spk_0:
we hear a lot in the nonprofit space would, particularly when it bumps up against marketing that any dollar that I spend that isn’t spent directly toward the core mission is a dollar taken away from that core mission. And we’d like for people to approach marketing for non profits a little differently where they see non they see their marketing uh, as an as an investment in that core message and an opportunity to expand and um amplify that message so that it becomes, it enables them to reach even more people. Um, and so that slight mindset shift can be really important when one starts to undertake marketing endeavors because, you know, it is money being, um, you know, coming out of the out of the program, but really making sure that you have to have a plan, you have goals, that they are reasonable, that you’re measuring that you’re tracking that you’re actually looking at this expense, um or this investment as uh, as something that’s going to grow your mission and and just keeping tabs on that and and making sure that you have those systems in place so that, you know that the, you know, whatever money you invested in marketing um, is creating a return on that investment. [00:51:49.96] spk_1:
Yeah, yeah. Please get past this insidious myth. That myth of overhead, you know that marketing is overhead and technology is overhead needless, you know, these are investments in your future. You and I are talking about investments in relationships, relationships are only going to grow and as as folks refer, you talked about repeat giving and referring as folks refer you, the relationships are going to expand beyond what you can imagine, but it takes investment. So [00:52:11.65] spk_0:
yeah, that’s why why having a system in place is so important and and that’s what, that’s one of the reasons I wrote Mission uncomfortable was to enable people to have some kind of understanding of a system in place for their marketing so that they could feel more empowered with that investment and and more comfortable with that investment that they’re making in in their outreach. [00:52:19.05] spk_1:
That’s the perfect place to leave. It’s too [00:52:21.05] spk_0:
well, thank you so much for having me on the show. Absolutely my pleasure. [00:52:43.05] spk_1:
The book is mission uncomfortable. How nonprofits can embrace purpose driven marketing to survive and thrive. You get it at mission uncomfortable Book dot com stew Schweinfurt. The studio is the practices relish studio and he and the company are at relish studio and relish studio dot com. So all right now, I’ve just said the word relish 35 times in the past two sentences. Why is it relish Studio [00:53:01.75] spk_0:
Relish Studio came about as a kind of a play on words where this is something that is that little extra spice on top that makes things extra good as well as something that we love to do. So you know, one of the things that really inspires me to work with nonprofit leaders is um just, it’s really easy to get out of bed in the morning and and work with these types of clients because we know that everybody’s out there trying to make the world a better place. [00:53:28.45] spk_1:
That’s cool. It’s a great double play. Relish the condiment Condiment studio. Alright. Relish studio dot com stew. Thank you again. Thanks very much. [00:53:36.77] spk_0:
Thanks for having me on [00:54:20.45] spk_1:
my pleasure. Next week is a social enterprise for you. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I Beseech you find it at tony-martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by turn to communications pr and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission turn hyphen two dot c o. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows social media is by Susan Chavez. Marc Silverman is our web guy and this music is by scott stein, thank you for that. Affirmation scotty be with me next week for nonprofit radio Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95 go out and be great