Tag Archives: customers

Nonprofit Radio for December 14, 2020: Zombie Loyalists

My Guest:

Peter Shankman: Zombie Loyalists
Peter Shankman is a 5x best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book “Zombie Loyalists” focuses on customer service; creating rabid fans who do your social media, marketing and PR for you. This is our annual rebroadcast of a show with very smart ideas for you to think about over the holidays. It originally aired December 19, 2014.


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[00:02:38.04] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be hit with tinny accrue if you made me itchy with the idea that you missed this week’s show. Zombie Loyalists. Peter Shankman is a five times best selling author, entrepreneur and corporate keynote speaker. His book, Zombie Loyalists, focuses on customer service, creating rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. This is our annual rebroadcast of a show with very smart ideas for you to think about over the holidays. It originally aired December 19th 2014 on tony Steak to my December Webinar were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot c o and by dot drives Prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and a free month. Here is Zombie loyalists. Peter Shankman is a well known and often quoted social media marketing and public relations strategist. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists. He wants you to create rabid fans who do your social media marketing and PR for you. He’s got super ideas and very valuable stories. I’m very glad Peter Shankman is with me in the studio. He’s the founder of Harrow. Help, a reporter out connecting journalists with sources in under two years from starting it in his apartment. Horror was sending out 1500 media queries a week to more than 200,000 sources worldwide. It was acquired by Vocus in 2010. He’s the founder and CEO of the Geek Factory AH, boutique social media marketing and PR strategy firm in New York City. Peter is on NASA’s civilian Advisory Council. You’ll find him at shankman dot com, and he’s at Peter Shankman on Twitter. His latest book is Zombie Loyalists, using great service to create rabid fans. I’m very glad his book brings him to non profit radio and studio Welcome, Peter. Good to be here, tony. Thanks pleasure. You live on the West Side of Manhattan and you and you, there’s a There’s a pretty well known five star steakhouse. Uh, I’ll get Wolfgang’s not far from you, but you pass it to go to a different steakhouse. Correct? Morton’s correct. Why is

[00:04:37.04] spk_0:
that more. I am a zombie loyalist to Morton’s. What does that mean? I love the service, the attention to detail, the quality, the the sort of where everyone knows my name mentality. When I walk into that morning or any Morton’s around the world, they have a tremendous, uh, customer relationship management system. When I call one number, uh, in New York or anywhere in the world, it they know who I am by my cell phone. And, uh, I’m treated with just, you know, phenomenal, uh, happiness. Thio here, from me and my wishes are granted is aware I we have a happy hour holiday party coming up at Morton’s next couple of days and, uh, you know, as always, I forgot toe calling, make a reservation. And, you know, I called yesterday and said, Hey, I need a, uh, a chance to get a reservation for seven people. Um, you know, Thursday night at 7 p.m. Which is, you know, the week of holiday party. And they looked and they said, Oh, well, and then I guess their computer system kicked in it. Of course, Mr Shankar, not a problem at all. We’ll get that for you. right away. You know, we’ll have a great booth for you to do that. Um, you know, and we’ll tell us names that people attending and you know, you don’t know, you know, they’re gonna have specialized menus for them and their names on they Really? They have, ah, really high level of service that they provide, Not just to me. That’s the beauty of it. You know, it is one thing, everybody. Yeah, it’s one thing that they just provided to me, but they do that for everyone. And that is huge because, you know, being able to call when a normal person makes reservation. And not that I’m special. I’m actually rather abnormal. But when a normal person makes a reservation and says, uh, no, Martin says Okay. Great. Are you celebrating anything? So yes, my wife’s birthday. Always ask anyone who calls right. He said, Oh, you know what tze my wife’s birthday. Great. What’s her name? Her name is Megan. Whatever. And you you go in and they and you sit down on the on the on the menu. It says Happy birthday. Make it. And then Megan, whoever she happens to be will spend the next 45 minutes. You know, taking 50 selfies with her menu and that’ll go online. And when her friends, you know, want that same experience, they’re gonna go.

[00:04:52.44] spk_1:
Morton’s you say in the book, you get the customers you want by being beyond awesome to the customers you have. And that’s why I want to start with that Morton’s story, which is in the middle of the book. But they do it for everybody, and then they have the VIPs as well. And there’s the terrific story of you tweeting tell that story. That’s a good story. It’s a good story. I love stories.

[00:07:21.94] spk_0:
I was flying home from a day trip to Florida and was exhausted and starving, and you’re flying down down at 6 a.m. Lunch meeting flew back the same day. You know, one of those one of those days, and, uh, I jokingly said the tweet Hey, Morton’s, why don’t you meet me at Newark Airport when I land with a porterhouse in two hours? Ha ha ha ha ha. Um, you know, I said it the same way you say, Hey, winter, please stop snowing things like that on I landed, uh, find my driver. And so next my driver is a is ah, waiter in a tuxedo with Morton’s bag. They saw my tweet. They put it together. They managed to bring me a a steak and, you know, as great of a story is it Is it za great stunt and it’s a great story and it wasn’t a stage, and it was completely amazing. But, you know, that’s not what they’re about. They’re not about delivering stakes airports. They’re about making a great meal for you and treating you like world when you come in. And you know, if they just did that, if they just delivered the state of the airport, but their quality and service sucked, you know, it wouldn’t be a story, you know, Look what they did for Peter. But, you know, my steaks cold, you know? So what it really comes down to is the fact they do treat everyone like kings, and that’s that’s really, really important, because what winds up happening, you have a great experience importance. And then you tell the world you know Oh, yeah, great dinner last night. That was amazing. I would totally there again. And as we move to this new world where, you know, review sites are going away, and I don’t I don’t need to go to yelp reviews from people I don’t know. You know, if they’re shills or whatever the case may be, I don’t know. Or trip Advisor. Same thing. I want people in my network quite trust and and people in their network who they trust by default, I trust. So that’s gonna be that’s already happening automatically. You know, when I when I land in L. A and I type in steakhouse, uh, you know, not me. I know I know where the steakhouse. But if someone types into Google Maps or Facebook Steak House in Los Angeles, you know they’ll see all the steak houses on a Google map. But if any of their friends have been to any of them, they’ll see those first. And if they had a good experience, only if the sentiment is positive, will they see those first. And that’s pretty amazing, because if you think about that, the simple act of tweeting out a photo Oh, my God, thanks so much more in love. This that’s positive sentiment. The network knows that, and so if you’re looking for a steakhouse, you know, And your friend six months ago, I had that experience. Oh, my God. Amazing state. This is a great place. The sentiments gonna be there and and And the network will know that network will show you that steakhouse because you trust

[00:07:29.04] spk_1:
your friend. And this is where we start to cultivate zombie loyalists. Exact this through this awesome customer service of the customers. You You have same or about zombies.

[00:07:36.88] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you have so many companies out there who are trying to get the next greatest customer. You know, you see all the ads, you know, the Facebook post, you know where at 990 followers are 10. Our 1/1000 follower gets a free gift. Well, that’s kind of saying screw you to the original 990 followers who you had who were there since the beginning. We don’t care about you. We want that 1000. You know, that’s not cool. Um, the the companies who see their numbers rise and you see their fans increase and their their, uh, revenues go up are the ones who are nice to the customers they have. Hey, you know, customer 8 52. It was really nice of you to join us a couple months ago. How? You know, how are you? We noticed that you posted on something about a, uh you know, your car broke down. Well, you know, we’re not in the car business, but, you know, your your two blocks from our our closest, uh, outlet or whatever. And you know, once you if you if you need to come in, have a cup of coffee will use the phone, Whatever. You know, those little things that you could do that that that really focus on the customers you have and make the customers. You have the ones where the zombies who tell other customers how great you are.

[00:08:38.98] spk_1:
And this all applies to non profit, certainly as well. The question,

[00:09:16.14] spk_0:
but even more so, I mean, if you you know, non profit, they’re constantly worried about how toe make the most value out of the dollar and how to keep the dollar stretching further and further. And you know, you have this massive audience who has come to you who is a non profit. Who said to you, You know we want to help here we are volunteering our help and just simply treating them with the thanks that they deserve. Not just a simple Hey, thanks for joining, but actually reaching out, asking what they want, asking how they like to get their information. Things like that will greatly increase your donations as well as, um, making them go out and tell everyone how awesome you are, letting them do your PR for you.

[00:09:20.28] spk_1:
And that’s what a zombie loyalist does. And this is for this. Could be donors could be volunteers to the organization who aren’t able to give a lot. But giving time is enormous.

[00:09:47.22] spk_0:
And if you know if they have such a great time doing it, they’ll bring friends. You know, zombies have one purpose in life. Really. Zombies have one purpose in life that’s to feed. It doesn’t matter how the Mets are doing it doesn’t matter, you know, because chance that they lost anyway. But it doesn’t matter how how anyone’s doing, you know, or what’s going on in the world. It doesn’t matter what matters with zombies where they get their next meal because they feed and they have to infect more people. Otherwise, they will die zombie loyalists of the same thing. All they have to do is make sure that their customers, they tell the world we all have that friend who does it. You know, that one friend who eat nothing but the olive garden because oh, my God’s greatest breadsticks everywhere, you know and they will drag your ass the olive garden every single time they get that chance. That’s a zombie

[00:11:19.84] spk_1:
loyalist, and you want them to do that for your non profit. And there’s a big advantage to being a smaller, smaller organization. You could be so much more high touch, and we’re gonna talk about all that. We’ve got the full hour with Peter Shankman. Got to go away for a couple minutes, stay with us. It’s time for a break. Turn to communications. They have relationships with journalists. This is what you’re looking for when you get a PR firm to do your public relations in your media. For you. They’ve got the relationships because of the trust that they’ve built with reporters and editors at places like The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS Market Watch, The Chronicle of Philanthropy. You get the first call When these outlets are looking for sourcing on charitable giving a non profit trends on philanthropy they’re calling Turn to turn two refers to you because you’re their client. You get first crack at first class media the right turn hyphen two dot c o it tze your life No, you check him out. Turn hyphen two dot c o Now back to zombie loyalists Peter, it doesn’t take much Thio stand out in the customer service world doesn’t

[00:11:24.59] spk_0:
it really doesn’t you know? And the reason for that is because we expect to be treated like crap. You know, if you think about that, I I I love this example. Whenever I give speeches, I asked I asked everyone the audience and, like who here has had a great flight recently, like at least one personal raise their hand. I’m like, Okay, what made it great and without failure. And I said, Well, we took off on time and I had the seat I was assigned and we landed on time and like so you paid for a service. They delivered that service and you’re over the freaking moon about it. Like that’s the state that we have become, You know, that’s how bad customer service has been that you are just beyond thrilled that they did exactly what they said they were gonna do with nothing more.

[00:11:57.85] spk_1:
Less than 20 minutes in the post office line. Exactly. And I’m ecstatic.

[00:12:16.74] spk_0:
Exactly. You know, it’s so we really are at a point where we only have to be one level above crap. I’m not even asking my client to be good. Just one level of crap. You know, if everyone else’s crap and you’re one level above that, you’re gonna win. It’s my favorite. One of my favorite jokes wth E. Two guys were out in the woods hunting in the woods, and we’re just jogging. It was the first one sees. Ah, bear. And they see these bearings. Bears raised up. He’s about to strike, and the first one reaches down and tightens up his laces on his running shoes And say What? The studio Don’t be. Don’t be an idiot. You cannot run a bear. And guess what? I don’t need to. You need to outrun you. You know, I love that joke because it’s it’s so true. That’s the concept. You know, all you have to do is be just a little bit better than everyone else and you’ll win the whole ball

[00:12:38.29] spk_1:
game. Now we have to set some things up internally in orderto have the structure in place. No question about it to create these. The zombie loyalists.

[00:16:01.34] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, you haven’t. You have, ah, company where the majority of people in your company are afraid to do anything outside the norm, you know? I mean, look at look at the cell phone company. You know, they call them cause you have a problem, right? 18 T or T mobile. You call them, you have a problem. They’re actually the customer service people that handle your collar, actually judged and rewarded based on how quickly they can get you off the phone. You know, not on whether or not they fix your problem, but how fast they could get you off the phone. Which means how many more calls again? Remember, I worked when I worked in America Online. We all had to do a day of customer service every month just to see what it was like. That was a brilliant idea. But you know, again, it’s this. It was a system called Vantive where you’d sign on and as soon as you signed on, If you weren’t a call, you know, that was tacked against you. If you were in a call and and it went over a certain amount of time, that was tacked against you. So the decks were stacked not in the favor of the customer. There are some companies out there who allow their customer service employees to simply be smarter about what they dio and do whatever it is they need to do to fix the problem. Um, you know, my favorite story about this Verizon Wireless I went overseas was in Dubai, and I landed to buy and I turned on my phone. I had gotten global roaming on my phone, which, you know, 20 bucks for every 100 megabytes. Okay, so I land and I turn on my phone and it says, um, like before I’m even off the plane. I get a text that you’ve used $200 in roaming charges. I’m like, What the hell? You know, $300 by the time I get off the plane like something’s up here. So I called Verizon on a nice guy answer the phone and Oh, yes. I mean, the first thing that was Yes, or you do have global roaming, but it doesn’t work in Dubai, E. Okay, well, that’s not really global. That’s more hemispherical. Roaming, I think, is the issue. And so he, uh I said, Well, look, I’m gonna be here for a week. I said, you know what? You have my credit card on file. Build me like you, like 1000 bucks and just let me have the phone for, like, the week and, you know, you know, 500 bucks I won’t go over two gigs, but it just do something for me. Sorry, sir. I’m not authorized to do that. Um, you can. I’m like, So what do I have? He’s like, Well, you can pay $20.48 a megabyte. I’m like, I’m sorry. Seriously, which equates essentially to I will be charged $20.48 seconds. $20. 48 cents. For every I think the time for every four seconds of the video Gangnam style if I decided to watch on my phone like this is pretty ridiculous. So I simply hung up, hung up on Verizon. I went down the street to the Dubai. The Mall of the Emirates, which is the largest mall in the world, has a freaking ski slope in it. And I’m not joking. It has a ski slope in the small, and, uh, went to one of the 86 different electronic stores in this mall, bought an international unlocked version of the same exact cell phone. I have went next door to the local SIM card store, but a SIM card that gave me 20 gigabytes of data and 1000 minutes of talk for $40. I then put that in my phone because it’s an android phone. I simply typed in my user name and password for Google and everything imported. And Verizon did not get a penny on that trip. Um, how easy it would have been for Verizon to say. Okay, you know what? We’ll cut your brake. Uh, they still make a lot of money off me. And I would tell the world how great Verizon was to work with and how wonderful how helpful they were. Instead, they guaranteed that I will never that they will never make a penny from any international trip and I take what, 15 of them a year. Because now my cell phone, um, by international cell phone that I bought all I do is pop out the SIM card in my land wherever I am putting a new SIM card. So

[00:16:07.18] spk_1:
you’re speaking and writing and telling bad story, of course.

[00:17:10.14] spk_0:
And and every time I tell the story about Verizon, I make it a little worse. Apparently, Verizon, uh, tests out the durability of their phone by throwing them a kittens. I read this and then it must be true, you know? So not necessarily. But you know, the concept that that all they had to do, all they had to do was in power mark customer service. And it wasn’t Mark’s fault. Mark was a really nice guy, but he was not allowed to do that. He would’ve gotten fired if he tried to do a deal like that for May. And so it’s this concept, you know. And the funny thing is, it comes down to if you really want to go down the road in terms of a public company like Verizon of where the issue is, you could even trace it to fiduciary responsibility because the fiduciary responsibility of any company CEO all the way down to the employee is to make money for the shareholders. Okay, thats future responsibility means by not allowing me non allowing Mark the customer service agent to to help me on and take a different tack. He’s actually losing money. Too many CEOs think about the next quarter. Oh, we have to make our numbers. Next quarter, I’m fired companies in other countries. 10, I think the next quarter century. And they make a much bigger difference because they think, Okay, what can we do now that will have impact in the next 5, 10, 15 years, you know, and really implement the revenue that we have and an augment and companies Americans don’t think about them. That’s a big problem.

[00:17:24.84] spk_1:
I buy a product line, has a lot of natural and recycled materials. Seventh generation and their, um, their tagline is that in in our every decision, we must consider the impact on the next seven generations. It comes from an American Indian. It’s a

[00:17:41.70] spk_0:
great it’s a great line. I mean, just think about how much money would have made for me in the past three years just to my overseas,

[00:17:47.62] spk_1:
you’d be telling a story about like them about Morten like the one

[00:18:11.94] spk_0:
look, a lot of people listen to me and they went for a time when you Googled roaming charges variety when you Google, Verizon roaming charges. My story about, however, how I saved all this money because came up first because I did the math. And if I had not called Mark and bought my own cell phone and done this, I would have come home with $31,000 cell phone bill and your damn authorizing wouldn’t know anything about that. There have been up to bad. Sorry. Should read the fine print

[00:18:16.22] spk_1:
and plus the employee who sold you the quote International plan, right? I’m sure you told her. She said, Where you

[00:18:23.05] spk_0:
going? I’m going to Canada and I’m going to Dubai. I’m assuming she didn’t know where to buy Waas. She probably it was near Canada, but long story short couldn’t use

[00:18:30.26] spk_1:
it. Alright, so employees have to be empowered. There has to be we have to be, but changing Ah thinking too. I mean, the customer has to come first. Donor, the volunteer

[00:18:51.94] spk_0:
don’t volunteer. You get at the end of the day, where’s your money coming from? I don’t care if you’re non profit or Fortune 100 where your money coming from, you know? And if you we see it happening over and over again, we’re seeing what you’re seeing right now. Play out every single day with company uber, um, and uber. It’s so funny cause uber makes you know their value of $40 billion right now. But that doesn’t mean anything that doesn’t mean anything. If people are running away in droves, which people are, there’s a whole delete your uber app movement. People are Oh God, yeah, people are leaving the problem. Well, it’s several number one that uber is run by a bunch of guys who honor the bro code. The company was actually started by a guy who, on business in business insider, said he started the company to get laid. Um, his goal was to always have a black car. When he was leaving a restaurant, uh, to impress the girl he was with that he came out and said that and you see that culture run rampant throughout uber from their god mode where they can see they actually created. There was, uh, don’t read this my business insider as well. There’s a they created a hookup page that showed or or or walk of shame Page that showed where, uh, women were leaving certain apartments, like on weekends going or leaving certain place on weekends, going back to their home. Um, it was obvious that they, you know, met some guy like they did that. And then, of course, just their whole surge pricing mentality, which is, you know, two days ago there was a couple days. There was, uh, the terrorists of the figures, a terrorist attack in Sydney at that at that bakery and Sydney, uh, uber and Sydney instituted surge pricing for people trying to get out of harm’s way, you know, and they later refund it always a computer glitch. You know, I’m sorry. You have a stop button, and you can when you see something happening like that, this has to be someone in the office, because you know what? Not cool. We’re gonna take care of that and and hit the stop button. And it was Yeah. Bad tons and tons and tons of bad publicity. you know, I was having an argument with one of my Facebook page facebook com slash Peter Shankman Because they said, Oh, you know, Eh? So what they don’t they don’t turn surge pricing, don’t have enough cabs there, and you know, people can’t get home. I said I’m pretty sure that the Onley come, but I’m sure that no one had cab companies there. I’m sure that there wasn’t anyone who had enough cars, their private cabs, uber’s whatever. Yet the Onley stories I read about companies screwing up during the event where uber not Joe’s Sydney cab company. You know, I didn’t see him screwing up because he didn’t turn on surge pricing. You gotta You gotta respect your customer. You have to,

[00:20:55.14] spk_1:
as we’re training for that, then not only, uh, trying to change their mind ships. Well, in trying to change that mindset, rewards for for customer, for employees that do take, go, do go the extra

[00:22:04.04] spk_0:
mile. Well, first of all, if you give the employees the ability to do it to go the extra mile and I understand they won’t get fired, you’re not gonna get into I always tell every one of my employees. You’re never gonna get in trouble for spending a little extra money to try and keep customer happy. You’ll get fired for not doing it. You know you get fired for not for seeing an opportunity to fix someone and not taking it, not doing everything that you could know. Ritz Carlton is famous for that. Ritz Carlton hires people not because whether they could fold the bed sheet but for how well they understand people. Because in Ritz Carlton’s mind, it’s much more important to be a people person and be able to be empathetic and that it’s such a key word. Empathy is just so so sorely lacking. You know how much you’ve called customer service? Yeah, you know, I have to have to change my flight. My, my my aunt just died. I really need the Oh, okay, great. That’s $300 e. Just wanna go an hour earlier. You know, you show up at the airport, your bag is overweight by half a pound. That’s $75. I just can you just cut me some slack note, You know, so empathy and giving the custom, giving the employees the ability to understand that the customer that sometimes you can make exceptions and it is okay to make changes.

[00:22:11.22] spk_1:
And this is where a smaller organization has huge advantage. It’s easier to change.

[00:22:21.54] spk_0:
That’s what kills me. You know, I go to these try to frequent small businesses when I can. I go to some of these small businesses and they won’t they they act like large businesses, you know, in the respect that they don’t have ah, like

[00:22:27.68] spk_1:
they wanna be respected almost. They don’t have,

[00:23:06.44] spk_0:
like, a 6 6000 page code that they have to adhere. Thio. They can simply, uh, do something on the fly. And yet for whatever reason, they won’t do it. And it’s the most frustrating thing. Like, guys, you’re acting like a big. You’re acting like Mega Lo Mart here, you know, and you’re not Mega Lo Mart, and you’re just Joe’s house of stationary, whatever it is and you know, not be able to help me. You’re pretty much killing yourself because you don’t have 85 billion customers that come through the door after me, you know, But I have a pretty big network and for small business to get killed socially as social becomes more and more what? How we communicate, you know, it’s just craziness.

[00:23:16.04] spk_1:
It’s, you know, we’re pretty much in the world. I think we’re something almost hasn’t happened to you unless unless you share

[00:24:46.44] spk_0:
it. E joked that, you know, if I can take itself, it was I really there. Um but it’s true, You know, we do live in a world where you know, I remember God 10 years ago. Maybe not even not even 10 years ago. I was one of the first people have a phone in my camera, you know? And it was like, That’s what I said. Yeah, Camera on my phone. Right. And it was like a, I think a 0.8 megapixel. You know, it looked like I was taking a picture with a potato, but it was It was this. I remember it was 2002 and I was in Chase Bank and there was a woman arguing with the teller, and I pulled out my video. You know, it was the crappiest video you ever seen, but I pulled it out and I said, You know, I started recording and the woman behind the counter one behind the counter was going, The woman behind the counter was talking to the customer, saying, You do not speak to me that way. You get out of this bank right now and the customers saying, I just wanted my balance and you and your manager comes up and I get the whole thing on my little crappy three g Motorola for phone And I remember I posted online and Gawker picks it up. I gave him E mail that, you know, my headline I put on my block was, you know, Chase where the right relationship is that. Go after yourself, you know? And it was It just got tons of play. And then Gawker picked it up. It went everywhere, totally viral. So it’s one of those things you just like, you know, this is in 2002. It’s 12 years later. How the hell can you assume that nothing is being that you’re not being recorded? You know, I I e remember blowing I sneezed a couple weeks ago and, uh ah, that to get too graphic here. But e needed a tissue big time after I was done seizing E remember going through my pockets looking for desperate looking for a tissue. I’m looking around making sure it wasn’t on camera somewhere that someone didn’t grab that. Give me the next viral sensation. You know, e wait. God, I went to high school with a block from here, right? If the amount of cameras that Aaron Lincoln center today were there in 1989 1990 be having this conversation entirely, I’d be having this conversation behind. Bulletproof on. Yeah, so you know, you’d be you’d be talking to. You have to get special clearance to visit me. Probably the Supermax in Colorado. So, you know, it’s it’s one of those things that you just like. My kid who’s almost two years old now is gonna grow up with absolutely no expectation of privacy the same way that we grew up with an expectation of privacy. And I’m thankful for that because she will make a lot less stupid moves, You know, I mean, God, the things that I thought, you know, in in high school I thought the stupidest in the world. Thank God there wasn’t a way for me to broadcast that to the world in real time. Jesus. Thank God

[00:25:45.54] spk_1:
creating these zombie loyalists and we’ve got to change some. We’ve got to change culture and thinking and reward systems. Let’s go back to the cost of all this. Why is this a better investment than trying to just focus on new donors?

[00:26:38.84] spk_0:
I love I love this analogy and I’ll give you a fun analogy. Let’s have in a bar. And there’s a very cute girl across the across the park and she catches my eye catcher. I go up to her Go. You know you don’t know me e m amazing in bed. You should finish your drink right now. Come home. Let’s get it on. I’m gonna impress. I’m that good Chancellor. She’s gonna throw a drink in my face. Go back talking to her friends. I’ve done a lot of research on this. That’s probably now, let’s assume let’s assume an alternate world. I’m sitting there on my phone. I’m just playing like, you know, some no words with friends like that, and she’s over there talking to friends, one of her friends. Holy crap. That’s Peter. I think that’s Peter Shankman. I’ve heard him speak. He’s in this fantasy world. I’m single, too. E think he’s single and he’s having this amazing guy e No, he has a cat. You have a cat. You should totally go talk to him. The very least. I’m getting this girl’s number. That’s PR. Okay. And what do we trust? More me with my, you know, fancy suit collar going over the seventies. Leaders do. Hi. I’m amazing. Or the girl saying, Hey, we’ve been friends since third grade. I’m recommending that guy. You should trust me on this. You know, obviously that that’s where, uh, good customer service comes into play. And that’s where corporate culture comes into play. Because if I have a great experience with you and at your company, I’m gonna tell my friend when they’re looking and I will stake my personal reputation on it. There’s nothing stronger

[00:27:18.22] spk_1:
than that. And these are the people who want to breed

[00:27:21.10] spk_0:
as stronger than advertising stronger the marketing,

[00:27:23.04] spk_1:
and they’re gonna share. People want to share

[00:27:48.24] spk_0:
the think about the Internet runs on two things. It runs on drama. Drama and bragging are bragging and drama. And if you if you need any proof of that, you know, go and look at all the hashtags with crap that’s happened. You know, bad customer service, bad, whatever. But then look at all the good Hashtags. You know, when our flights delayed for three hours and we lose our seat Oh, my God. Hate this airline. Worst airline ever. But when we get upgraded right hashtag first class bitches or whatever it is, you know something stupid like that on the whole, because we love to share its on Lee a great experience if we could tell the world. And it’s only a bad experience if we could make everyone else miserable about it as

[00:29:35.94] spk_1:
well. It’s time for tony Stick to I am hosting a new free webinar plan to giving five minute marketing hosting my own. As I said last week, this feels very good. No shackles, no, not being shackled and drawn by by those others who host no grateful to the others who host me and we’ll be hosting in 2021 lots more webinars coming up. I’m grateful to them, but I’m doing my own too. So no more shackled and drawn. Um, and we’re doing this in, uh, this this month, December. It’s on Thursday, December 17th, 3 p.m. Eastern. It’s a quick shot another 1 45 minutes only on planned giving marketing. How to promote the idea of planned gift to your prospects? Who are the best prospects to be promoting to? What’s the message you should be sending to them and how do you get it out? Multi channel. I’m gonna do this all in 45 minutes, plus time for questions, which is my favorite. I have fun with the questions, tells me where you’re focused. I like the question. So we’re doing all this. Thursday, December 17th you register at plan to giving accelerator dot com slash webinar. That is tony. Stick to Let’s Let’s take two of 2020. As a matter of fact, come to think of it now, back to our annual rebroadcast of zombie loyalists. Peter, you have a golden rule of social media that that a good number of customers like to share and people are gonna keep doing it.

[00:29:41.14] spk_0:
People will always share again. It goes back to the concept that if you create great stuff, people want to share it because people like to be associated with good things. If you create bad stuff and buy stuff I could meet. I mean anything from, like a bad experience. Too bad content. People not only won’t share that, but we go out of their way to tell people how terrible you were. Um, you know, how many times have you seen companies fail horribly? Uh, you know, after major disasters when companies were tweeting, um, you know, completely unrelated things. Uh, after after a random school shooting? Uh, no, it was after the shooting at the theater in Aurora, Colorado. The dark knight, Um, the tweets. Hey, shooters, what’s your plans for this weekend? You know, and I’m just going, really, you know, but And of course, the thing was, the thing was retweeted millions of times, you know, with a sort of shame on the A so way we’re a society. Like I said earlier, that loves to share when when great things happen West, but loves to tell the world when we’re miserable because we’re only truly miserable, we make everyone else miserable. Um, it’s funny you mentioned the generosity Siri’s, uh, the one of my favorite stories, which goes to sort of a bigger picture of culture and somehow when you’re just doing your job, because that’s what you’re supposed to do your job, but you don’t realize there are ways to get around that. I listened to your podcast, among others, When I’m running through Central Park on Dhe, more like if you know my body type more like lumbering through Central Park. But I get there. I’m an iron man. I e have that. And so I go to Central Park and it’s super early in the morning cause I usually have meetings and I don’t run fast. Um, I run like I really don’t run fast, but But as I’m running,

[00:31:20.03] spk_1:
But let’s give you the credit that you have done a bunch of iron Man,

[00:33:04.29] spk_0:
I have e Do I do it? You know, my mother tells me that I just have very poor judgment in terms of what sports I should do. But, um, on the flip side, I’m also a skydiver, which is with my weight is awesome. I fall better than anyone. Um, but so I’m running through Central Park. Last year it was February, February of of 13 and 14 of this year, and it was probably about 4 45 in the morning because I had an 80 a meeting. I had to do 10 miles. So 45 in the morning, I’m running about but around 96 79th 80th Street on the east side, in the park and a cop pulls me over and I said, What are you doing? I look at him, you know, I’m wearing black spandex. I have a hat. It’s five degrees that only what? Playing checkers. You know what you know. And like I’m running and he’s like, Okay, can you stop running? I’m like, Okay, he’s like in the parks closed like No, it’s not like I’m in it. Look around. There are other people who know part does nobody else exam like he’s like, Do you have any idea on you? I’m like, No, I’m running. He goes, What? Your name? I’m like, seriously, like I’m writing you a summons. I’m like you’re writing me a summons for exercising for for I just want to clarify that you’re writing music. And sure enough that I wrote me a summons for exercising in Central Park before it opened. The charge was breaking the violating curfew. You know, I’m like I get the concept of the curfew is to keep people out after 2 a.m. It’s not to prevent them going in early toe exercise to be healthy. I’m like, I’m not carrying, you know, a six pack. I’m not drinking a big gulp. I’m not smoking. I’m you know, I’m doing something healthy, and you’re writing me a summons for it. Um, I said, you know, I’m gonna have a field day with this. I said I I kind of have some fathers. It’s gonna be a lot of fun. I’m not. You know, I know you’re just doing your job serve even though you have the discretion not to. But Okay, so I go back home, take a picture of my ticket, I email it to a friend of mine in New York Post. You know, front page, New York Post next day. No running from this ticket, you know, for great New York Times covered it. Runners world covered it. I mean, I went everywhere. Gawker covered it, you know, And And my whole thing was just like, Dude, you have discretion. Look at me. You know, I’m not I’m not even going super fast, for God’s sake. I’m just I’m just trying to exercise here, you know, And of course, I went to court and I beat it. But how much money that cost the city for me to go to court? Fight this thing? You know, every employee you have to give your employees the power of discretion, the power of empathy to make their own decisions. If you go by the book, bad things will happen.

[00:33:32.16] spk_1:
And again, small shops so much easier to dio flatline flat organizations.

[00:35:06.94] spk_0:
I work with a non profit, um, animal rescue non profit. A friend of mine was a skydiver and shot him out. No, I can’t. There’s nothing but But there’s a friend of mine was a skydiver and she was killed in a base jump several years ago. And her husband asked to donate in her memory to this non profit. So I said, I’m a check. And about three months later, I get a coffee table book in the mail and I was living by myself the time I didn’t own a coffee table. It was more money to spend on my flat screen, and I remember I call I look at this coffee table book I throw, I throw in the corner. I look at it over next couple days. It pisses me off That How much? How much of my donation did it cost to print? Melon produced this book to me, and so I called them up. Well, sir, we believe most of our donors were older and profit. Prefer to get ah, print version as opposed to, like, digital, You know where they throw it away. And like, you don’t throw digitally, but Okay, um, I’m like, So So you’ve asked your you’ve done surveys and you’ve asked, you know, we just assume that most of our older I’m like, Okay, so I open my mouth lineup joining the board and spent the next year interviewing customers, interviewing every current and past donor about how they like to get their information and shock of shocks. 94% said online. And so over the following year, we launched Facebook page, Twitter page, uh, Flickr account, YouTube, everything. PS the following year. For that, donations went up 37% in one year in that economy is right around 0809 Donations went up 37% in one year and they saved over $500,000 in printing mammalian reproduction. Imagine going to your boss, Boss. Revenues up 37%. And we saved a half million dollars you’re talking about. You’re really good beer. You know, All they had to do was listen to their audience, be relevant to the audience you have, and they will tell you what they want.

[00:35:13.37] spk_1:
We have tons of tools for segmentation. My God, you gotta listen to what segment? That you want. People wanna be in.

[00:35:52.24] spk_0:
You know, someone? Someone asked me today. Show what? What’s the best and knew nothing about their company. What’s the best, uh, social media outlet for me to be on? Should be on Twitter. Should be on Facebook. I said, I’ll answer that question. If you can answer this This this question to ask you is my favorite type of cheese Gouda or the number six. They said I understand. That’s not a real question. Like neither is yours. Like I can’t tell you where the best place to be your audience can. I said, go ask your audience. Believe me, they will tell you there’s a gas station in the Midwest. Come and go. I just love the name K u m and G. O. And their tag tagline is always something extra e. Come on, the jokes just write themselves, for God’s sake. But

[00:35:58.40] spk_1:
they don’t take themselves to say, Really love that coming just knowing the name of the company

[00:36:12.13] spk_0:
gas station. And I remember there in Iowa and I went to visit a friend in Iowa and I was like, You got to get a photo of in front of come and go inside. And the beauty of this is that some of their employees actually look at their customers when they’re on their phones and stories go, you know, what do you use Twitter or Facebook? And they say, Oh, I use that and they record that information and they know it. God, customers will give you so much info if you just ask them, because then they feel invested. They feel invest in your company. They feel like they that you took the time to listen to their non profit request. So their their their questions and they feel like they’re I did it for Harrow. Every month. We have a one question Harrow survey, you know, harrowing question survey, and it was like 1000 people respond and I’d spend the entire weekend emailing Everyone responded, thanking them personally took my entire weekend. But it was great because it would wind up happening. Is that you know, if we took their advice and launched on Monday with the new thing, they go, Oh, my God. How did this review? They took my advice. Well, yeah, I was your advice to 100 other people advice, but we took it and they’d be like, Oh, my God, this meat And it just It just made them so much more loyal. And they tell hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people we get I mean, there were days. My God, they’re days. I was in Temple one morning, the Garment Center synagogue and my phone. I feel my phone getting really hot in my pocket, which is not normal. And I started to hurt and I look at it. It’s almost on fire. It had frozen because we were mentioned in Seth Godin’s morning blogged, and at that time I was getting emails. Every time we get a new subscriber and the phone is actually frozen and was locked and and was like overheating, I take out the battery and like, reset the entire phone because we just got so many new, like, 14,000 subscribers in, like, three hours I’ve seen.

[00:37:30.68] spk_1:
I’ve seen you say, Excuse me. You say that that customer service is the new advertising marketing NPR? Yeah, it

[00:40:01.00] spk_0:
really is. Well again. You know, if we’re moving into that world where so imagine a lava lamp. And I love that. I can use this analogy. Imagine a lava lamp. A lava lamp has water Oil on the heat source. Right. Heat source heats the oil. The oil flows through the water. It makes pretty colors. I’ve heard it looks really good when you’re high. Now I’ve heard. Now imagine if crystals imagine if you are, uh, everyone you meet in your network, okay, is a drop of oil. The water is your network. And what is your world? Everyone you meet in your network from from the guy you’re sitting during the radio interview with to the guy who serves you ice creams, local deli to the guy who does your dry cleaning to your girlfriend to your wife to not the same time to your kids. Second grade teacher to your second grade teacher years ago. Everyone you meet is in your network, you know, right now, when Facebook first started, I would see the same weight from a kid with junior high school with his posted at the same weight as like my current girlfriend. I’m just ridiculous. I don’t need to know about everything, my friend from junior high schools doing having talked to Kidd in 15 years, Facebook’s gotten a lot smarter, as has Google. Now I see the people I communicate with the most okay, and if I if I reach out and communicate with new people, they start rising in my feet in my stream. If I don’t they fall. It’s just like a lava lamp. Every person you connect with is a drop of oil. That heat source at the bottom that’s rising. Raising or lowering those drops of oil is relevance. So imagine the heat sources relevance. And the more I interact with someone, the more the higher they go in my network in the more I see of them, the more trust level there is. When I’m at a bar and I meet someone or a restaurant or conference, I meet someone I don’t need to, Um connect them. I don’t need to go on Facebook and friend request, you know, awkward friend. Requesting is when you stop and think The last time I friend requested some of the real world was second grade. Will you be my friend? My daughter’s doing that because you know she goes It’s like cat Will you be my friend like tony? The cat doesn’t wanna be your but you know, it’s this awkward thing. Who the hell friend request someone anymore? If I’m if I’m hanging out with you The bar and we connect again and we talk and we go out to dinner and we’re having a good time with friends I don’t need to first request that you, you know. So that’s going away. Friending following liking and fanning is all going away. What will interact is the actual connection. So if I meet with you, then I have a good time with you and we talk again. If I use your business If I go to your non profit, if I donate, if I volunteer whatever the network knows that the more I do that, the more interact with you. The more you have the right to market to me And the more you will be at the top of my stream and the more I will see information about you the less I will have Thio search for you. But if you do something stupid or we’re no longer friends So yeah, you’re gonna fade Don’t unfriend you you just disappear. Unfriending is also awkward. I dated a woman, we

[00:40:06.44] spk_1:
broke up. It was nine months after we broke up. There was one done friend, the other one because it’s just awkward until I woke up with a

[00:40:11.28] spk_0:
friend of me. But anyway, But you know the concept of not having to do that of just, you know Okay, I haven’t talked in a while. I

[00:40:17.85] spk_1:
don’t see your post anymore. That’s the real world. That’s how it should be. And if you’re not feeding zombie loyalists, they can start to defect. No question about it. I wanna I wanna spend a little time on. If you’re

[00:40:29.29] spk_0:
not talking to them giving them what they want talking about their information, helping them out, they will gladly go somewhere else to someone who is. You know, if I have a great experience of the restaurant every week for three years and then

[00:40:39.42] spk_1:
all of a sudden, over time, I’m noticing less and less that restaurants doing less

[00:40:44.71] spk_0:
and less Thio take care of me, you know, And maybe management change. And I don’t feel that, you know, I’m ripe for being infected by another company. I’m right for someone else to come to. You know, Peter, because if I tweet something like, wow, I can’t believe I have to wait 40 minutes for a table. This didn’t used to be like that. If someone else is smart restaurant, they’re following me, and they’re gonna great. You know, there’s no wait,

[00:41:01.49] spk_1:
no way over here. Why don’t you come to block storms will give you free

[00:41:03.54] spk_0:
drink, you know, You know, and that right there, that’s first sign of infection. And I might become infected by another by another company. Become zombie loyalist

[00:41:21.91] spk_1:
for them. And so let’s let’s take you have a lot of good examples. Let’s take ah, one on one situation. How can we start to cure that? The simple act of realizing following your

[00:41:38.21] spk_0:
customer’s understanding when they’re not happy and fixing the situation before it escalates? Um, you know, you can contain a small outbreak, a small outbreak, small viral outbreak. You could contain that by getting the right people finding out what the problem is getting into one room, fixing their problem, healing

[00:41:38.61] spk_1:
them. You have a good united story. Right back when it was Continental,

[00:42:07.20] spk_0:
I was a frequent flyer and booked a trip to Paris on Dhe was very angry because they charged me $400 in looking for you. Remember what it was And I called the CEO. I’m just just for the hell of it. I’m like, I’m gonna I wrote a letter or an email. So this is before Social wrote an email to the CEO. I’m like this Ridiculous. I’m freaking like, 30 months later, my phone rings. Hello, Peter. Please hold for Larry Kilman, CEO of airlines. I’m like, Oh, crap, you know, and get on the phone. He’s like, Peter, how you doing? Mr. Doing started letting thes fees their new We sent that note. I’m guessing you don’t see it. We’re gonna waive them for you. But if you have any more problems, you know, feel free to call me. And I hung up the phone the next 40 minutes to sort of staring at it like holy crap. Larry Kellner, the CEO of United, just called me and talk to me, and it was like it was like, God coming down and say You now have the power to levitate your cat. It was just ridiculous. And so, you know, I have been faithful to Continental now, united ever since on, and they continue to treat me with respect and and do great things. And they’re they’re improving. They were getting a lot of crap over the past several years, and they really are starting to improve. It’s nice

[00:42:48.50] spk_1:
to see and not only, of course, your own loyalty, but

[00:42:50.41] spk_0:
you’re my God

[00:42:51.84] spk_1:
loyalist for them and how many times how much it’s

[00:42:54.83] spk_0:
unquantifiable. It’s unqualified. Dragged, dragged so many friends to united. I’ve made so many friends. Uh, I mean, my father, you know, uh, he only plays united now, which means he only drag. He dragged my mom only in the night and only drag my wife United States. There’s a lot of a lot of work that way. Yeah,

[00:44:16.39] spk_1:
we’re gonna go away for a couple of minutes when we come back. Of course, Peter, and we’re gonna keep talking about his book comes out in January. Zombie Loyalists. Time for our Last break dot drives dot drives. Engagement dot drives relationships. Dot Drives is the simplest donor pipeline fundraising tool. They’ve made it customizable, collaborative and intuitive. It moves the needle on your prospect and donor relationships. If that’s what you want. If you want to move prospects along from prospect, potential donor to donor and then beyond, of course it’s stewardship. This is what dot does for you. For listeners. As you know, there’s a free month and a free demo. You go to the listener landing page at tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant. We’ve got but loads more time. That’s the last but loads of 2020 something. But there’ll be plenty of butts in 2021 but loads more time for zombie loyalists. With Peter Shankman, you have some examples of zombie loyalist leaving and mass like dominoes. Netflix. They’re both They’re both in the book, so it s so one leaving. If you don’t, you’re not starting to cure one leaving?

[00:44:29.54] spk_0:
Yeah, and then that’s the thing. You know, the the Internet with the hashtag, everything like that. You know, it doesn’t take a long time um, for those things to sort of blow up in your face and, uh, you know, the end of the day Mhm. Everyone said, Oh, you know Twitter is responsible for for us losing another, not you’re responsible for you losing, you know, And And if your product isn’t great and you’re your actions, don’t speak well of who you are. Then there’s no reason your customers should stay with you, you know? And it was so social media is really hurting us. Know you’re hurting yourself. The only difference is that social media makes it easier for the world to know

[00:44:59.27] spk_1:
about. They’re just telling the story. Dominoes and Netflix are good example because they bounce back. They took responsibility and

[00:45:43.00] spk_0:
they both owned the dominoes, came out and said, You know what? You’re right. Our pizza. We do have a problem. We’re gonna fix this. And they spent millions fixing it. And sure enough, they’re back with a vengeance. Now, I may or may not even have ordered them every once in a while, and I live in New York City. That’s a that’s a That’s a sacrilege. But you know, I have the app on my phone from over, You know, traveling somewhere being or whatever. And you know what, Do you get it? 11. 30 at night when your flight is delayed in the land? Donna, Um, which reminds me she probably go exercise on the flip side. Looks like Netflix. They also were screwed up. You know, they were losing, trying to switch between the two. They came up with a new name and everyone just like public man. And so and again. You’re watching the same thing happen with uber right now. So we really interesting to see if they’re able to repair themselves.

[00:45:48.99] spk_1:
Listening is important. Both Both those. Both those two examples. They listen to

[00:46:49.48] spk_0:
their customers. I think there’s a problem with listening because everyone’s been saying, Listen, listen, listen. For months and years and years and years now, but, you know, no one ever says that you have to do more than just listen. You have to listen. Actually follow up. It’s one thing to listen, you know, I use example my wife I could sit there and listen to her for hours, you know? But if I don’t actually say anything back, she’s gonna smack may you know, and go to the other room. And so you really have to. It’s a two way street. Listening is great, but you gotta respond, and look, I’ll take it a step further. E was like, Oh, Twitter is so great because someone was complaining on Twitter and we went online, and we we saw the complaint that we fixed their problem. And, yeah, how about if the problem did exist in the first place? You know, because the great thing about Twitter is that yeah, people complain on Twitter, the bad thing about it is there complaining about you on Twitter. So it’s like, What if the problem didn’t exist in the first place? What if What if you empower your front desk clerk to fix the problem so that I didn’t have to tweet? Hurts is my favorite story about all this? Uh, I used to rent from Hertz religiously. Um, And then I went thio Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport this past April, and I gave it, was giving a speech, and I go on. My name is supposed to be on the board, you know, so I could go back to my car and it wasn’t happens. I got upstairs. I wait 40 minutes on the V I P line. Um, after 40 minutes, they finally say, you know, there’s ah, on the one guy here. A lot of people might have a better chance. We go up the regular line, okay? Probably have told us that a little earlier. Go to the regular line. Spent 45 minutes waiting. The regular line that’s now been

[00:47:11.51] spk_1:
Are you tweeting? While this was happening?

[00:47:48.08] spk_0:
Well, I had enough. I was actually not only tweeting I had enough time to create a meme that should give you some idea of how long I was online with myself when I was quite enough. E get to the counter. Mm. How I can help you. Yeah, I was downstairs the V i. P. S and they told me Oh, you’re preservation downstairs like Yeah, OK, let’s Let’s put a pin in that, um they just sent me up here like right. They have to help you. Well, it’s not really they You guys were the same company. I mean, I could see the reservation on the screen. You you can help me. Sorry. So I can’t help. You have to go to V I p next. Like you just next to me. Okay, so if you know anything about Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix, Um, all of the rental car company in the same place, eh? So I walked 50 ft.

[00:47:51.19] spk_1:
It’s a bus, takes you to the big the big pavilion, where they’re all next week.

[00:49:46.97] spk_0:
I walk 50 ft from the depravity that was hurt to the the wonderful Zen Garden of Tranquility That was Avis. And in four minutes, I had a nicer, cheaper or nicer, less expensive car given to me a woman named Phyllis who was 66 moved to Phoenix from Detroit with her husband for his asthma. I knew this because she told me. Um, she smiled at me. She brought her manager out and said, Yeah, that’s another refugee from hurts. And I said, This happens a lot. They’re like, Yeah, I’m like, Wow, you think they have done something about that? And so on the way out in a vis um, I I thank them. I walk past her, I shoot them this, you know, sort of Look at the look of the beast. I get my Avis car driving my hotel once I get to my hotel. I write a wonderful block post about my experience called Peter and hurts in the terrible. Horrible. No boat could really bad customer experience. Would you have a kid? You find your writing titles about your block post that have to do with kids books? Um, I do not like hurts, Sam. I am. And things and I included in this block post the five things I’d rather do than ever, uh, rent from Hertz again. I think number three was was ride a razor blade bus through a lemon juice waterfall, um, with, you know, and so. But, of course, the next day hurts reaches out. To me. This is the head of North American customer service. That’s all your body I’m like, They’re like, you know, we’d love to have that, Nick. No. Like you’re not gonna fix the problem. Number 17 Avis car. I’m never going back to hurt number two. There were five people yesterday. Five people interacted with all of whom had the chance to save me and keep me as a customer for life. A customer who have been so happy and I would have loved you five people blew it. So don’t waste your time trying to convert me back. You’re not going to what you want to dio is spend some of that energy retraining your staff to have empathy and to give them the ability and the empowerment to fix my problem when it happens. Because five people it takes every single employee to keep your company running, it takes one to kill it. PS Avis reached out to thank me personally. And, uh, I am now just this ridiculously huge, loyal fan of Davis and always

[00:49:56.07] spk_1:
will be. You have a pretty touching story about when you worked in a yogurt shop. You were really young way. Have a couple of minutes.

[00:50:39.85] spk_0:
Tell that. Tell that good stuff that was in the East Side, which again is yet another reason why I live on the West Side. Nothing good ever happens in Manhattan’s East Side. So I was I was working that I can’t believe it’s yogurt, which was a store that I think back in the 80 c b. Y. No, no TCB. Why was the country’s best I c B I. Why, it was a poor I can’t believe it. I can’t believe you, Yogurt. It was a poor attempt to capitalize on. I’m working at this store, and I go in every day and make the yoga to clean the floors. Radio typical high school job. And, uh, it was during the summer and thousands of people walking by, I think, like Second Avenue or something. And there were these brass poles that hung from, you know, there was an awning, right? It’s only that there and then the brass poles that held the awning up and they were dirty as hell, right? I’m sure they’ve never been polished ever. And I found I found some brass polishing the back, like always bear in the back. And one afternoon I went outside and I positive polishing the polls. My logic was, if the polls were shining, people saw them. Maybe they come into the store. Maybe they wanna, you know, by more screenplays. And the manager came out. What the hell are you doing? I said I told them what I thought. I don’t pay you to think. Get inside. You know, I’m like, there’s no customers in there, like, Okay, I’ll make sure the yogurt still pumping it full blast and I quit. I just quit that job. I mean, like, I couldn’t even begin to understand why someone would invest. I mean, own a franchise 50 grand to at least to buy that franchise. Why wouldn’t he invest in the two seconds it took a little elbow grease to make the polls claim that might bring in more customers? What the hell? You know, you’re not paid to think you’re not paid to think my favorite line. Yeah, I just I e encourage if any kids listening this teenagers, if you if you boss says that to you, quit, quit. I will hire you. Just quit it, Z. Probably the worst thing in the world that you could possibly do because you have customers who you have customers who every day could be helped by people who are paid to think. And that’s the ones you wanna hire.

[00:51:54.16] spk_1:
We gotta wrap up. Tell me what you love about the work you do.

[00:51:59.06] spk_0:
I get paid to talk. I mean, my God, that’s the same stuff I used to get in trouble for in high school. But on a bigger picture, what I really love about it is being able to open someone’s eyes and have them come back to me. Um, I run a series of masterminds called Shank Mines Business masterminded shank mines dot com, their day long seminar all around the country. And I had someone come to me. You know, I took your advice about X y Z and I started listening a little more. And I just got the largest retainer client I’ve ever had in my life by a factor of four. She goes, and I just can’t even thank you Never sent gorgeous politics like I can’t even thank you enough. Oh, my God. Being able to help people, You know, at the end of the day where I’ve yet to find another planet suitable for life, I’m looking So we’re all in this together. And if that’s the case, you know, why wouldn’t we want to help people just a little bit more? You know, there really isn’t a need to be, as do she is as we are as a society, we could probably will be a little nice to each other. And you’d be

[00:55:09.04] spk_1:
surprised that will help. The book is Zombie Loyalists. It’s published by PAL Grave. MacMillan comes out in January. You’ll find Peter at Shenkman dot com and on Twitter at Peter Shankman. Peter, thank you so much pleasure. Thank you Next week, as I alluded to, There is no show next week or for the week after. I hope you enjoy the hell out of your holidays. Although I know Hannah has already passed. I’m sorry. That’s sort of a set thing. I don’t have a lot of control over. If I did, I would do something about it. But there’s not a lot I can do about that. But you still have New Year’s. You got. You got that to look forward to, and I hope everyone enjoys time off time with family. In small, of course, small household size groups keep it safe. There’ll be a 2021 on Take time for yourself yourself. You need it. You deserve time for yourself. Rest recovery, recuperation, naps, Highly underrated naps. Terrible. I did a whole block post years ago on naps. Uh, I admire Nah, I’m more than admire. I thrive over naps. I exult in naps. Yes, way beyond mere admiration of naps. I exult in naps. It’s been a rough year, so However you take care of yourself, you know what’s best for yourself. Do it. Do it. Please take good care of yourself and I will see you in 2021. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it at tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by turn to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen two dot ceo and by dot drives Prospect to donor simplified tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant for a free demo and that free month. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. You people have application. Scotty, be with me next week. No, no, no, not next week. Be with me next year for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out there and be great

Nonprofit Radio for January 18, 2019: Donor Centric

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Curtis Bingham: Donor Centric
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Hello and welcome to Tony Martignetti non-profit radio Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on your aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d come down with Stone Battal Gia If I had two mouths. The words you missed today’s show donor-centric to keep your donor’s think and act like successful private sector companies. Curtis Bingham is founder of the chief customer officer counsel and a multi award winning customers success strategist. Conveying corporate methods to non-profits I’m Tony Steak, too. The reason to be an insider. We’re sponsored by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled twenty dahna slash pursuant by Wet your CPA’s guiding you beyond the numbers. Weinger cps dot com Bye. Tell us Attorney credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash Tony Tell us, and by text to give mobile donations made. Easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine I’m very glad that I can welcome Curtis Bigham to the show. Curtis End Bingham. He is recognized as the world’s foremost authority on chief customer officers, having helped more than two hundred from Coca Cola nationwide. MetLife, Oracle, JetBlue and other marquee companies. He helps build an explicit link between customers, success and the business value. Curtis is the founder and CEO of the chief customer. Officer Counsel, the first pure lead advisory group for see CEOs. The Council is that cco council dot or GE. And he’s at Curtis Bingham. Curtis. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Tony. Great to be here. Thanks to pleasure. You’re calling from Washington State, aren’t you? Just just outside of Seattle. It’s a rare sunny day here, so you don’t get a rare sunny day in the winter. I’m glad you’re with us. That’s right. Make you so, Curtis, you’ve you have consulted with Worked with Cem. Very high profile companies and brands. Um, I gather Ah, well, I know you will believe there are lots of lessons that non-profits can learn absolutely. I think it’s fascinating that some of the non-profits are now where a number of large private sector companies have been were, you know, ten twenty years ago where they started. Many of them started realizing that that they were losing Mohr customers out the back door than they were gaining in the front door. And, uh, and starting to realize that they really needed to start addressing the turn the revolving door out the back, because they just simply could not bring in enough new customers to replace those that they lost every year. And I think that, you know, based on the on my experience recently, I think that the Non-profit world is is kind of at that inflection point now where, where they really need to start focusing on on retaining donors rather than just trying to find new donors. Teo to keep their numbers up. I’ve had so many guests on talk about the difference in cost between retaining a donor and acquiring a new donor, and you’re not gonna have a lot of time to talk about retention. And that’s one of that’s the heart of your your customer centris ity. So that’s interesting. So you feel companies are fifteen or twenty years ahead of non-profits in this in this learning curve? Some of them some of them? Yes, some of them know, you know, fifteen to twenty years is is kind of about the threshold when when when people really start in the commercial sector, really started focusing on on on customer retention and customer issues. And, you know, that was about when I started started really diving into working with chief customer officers on. And it was, you know, it’s kind of fascinating. The very first one was out of Texas New Mexico power almost fifteen years ago, almost twenty years ago. Now it was a public utility company where they recognised that they, uh, that that customers have to have a voice. We have to give a voice to our customers in order to in order to keep them longer. And the rest of the industry started started tagging along, and it was a little bit nascent for a little while with the with the extreme customer focus. But it’s been in the last eleven years that that things have, really. They people have really, really focused on retaining customers almost as diligently and religiously as they are focusing on acquiring new customers. And that’s, you know, I’ve been doing working with the chief customer officer, counsel. I found it about eleven or twelve years ago. And, uh, and so that’s when. That’s when a lot of companies really, really started focusing on it and making it a priority, a sufficient priority that they have appointed an executive uniquely accountable to customers. Yeah, right, right, Theo, the chief customer officer, Who who are the customers of Non-profits? And I’m thinking donors, volunteers, potential donors. Are there others that I’m not thinking of? I think those are the those are the big ones and you know you’ve got within those ranks. You. I think a lot of people focus just on donors, but they miss all of the volunteers they don’t focus on on the volunteer experience, the volunteers who are the ones that were running the events and operating the events and helping Teo helping to bring in the money from from the individual donors. So it’s it’s. It’s fascinating to see that a lot of people forget that. But that’s a huge, huge piece that they need to be that cut that non-profits need to be paying attention to. In addition to just the just the people who give, you know, you can give of your time, you can give you your money and the people who do both or even more valuable to you. Yeah. Yeah. And we’re going to talk about you have some great strategies for stratify ing. The best people are that you need to pay the most attention to because, well, I don’t want to give away everything but, you know, you If you love everybody, you have to love. You can’t love everybody equally. We’re going to get to that, but you know they’re okay. But there are major brands that don’t stay customer centric and fade into irrelevance. You have a couple of examples. Just give us like a give us, like, two examples that have been just within the past. I don’t know. Twelve months or so of irrelevance. Major brands xero becoming irrelevant. Yeah. You know, there was had a fascinating conversation with the CMO of Panasonic a couple years ago, and he was while he was there. He’s since retired, but he asked a number of other company C M o’s Ah, In the high tech industry, what do you have a most afraid of And the CMO is the worst thing that they could imagine possible was that their brands could get lost in the noise and viewed as irrelevant by customers. And and and I think that it’s fascinating. Like you mentioned, a couple of big commercial sector companies have become irrelevant. You know, Sears declared bankruptcy last year. This was serious. Was was originally credited with removing racism fromthe shopping, eh? Experience because skin color disappeared when ordering from a catalog. And yet, you know, a few years ago, the Finance Year Eddie Lampert bought the company, milked all of the profits and refused to upgrade anything. And so now it’s a ghost town. And so they’ve They’ve dropped from twenty three hundred stores down to seven hundred, and they’re closing another seven hundred fifty. And, you know, I don’t know about you, but that’s your relevant in the minds on God. And as important as Ceres was, what? Like what? When did that catalog? I mean, is that? Is that one hundred year old company? I mean, Sears was serious, like the Amazon of its day. When the back in the catalogue day. Right? Right? Yeah, right. Yeah, there’s another one. There’s another one that G was. They used to own NBC Universal Studios, giant appliance company and one of America’s biggest bank. They were just late last year, removed from the Dow Jones industrial average after one hundred ten years. You know, there’s another great example of relevance. And then and then, you know, one of things that a lot of us have have run across here is this with the advent of uber and lift, and they’ve just kind of destroyed the taxi market that the medallions for the taxis in New York City, um, used to cost three hundred fifty thousand dollars originally cost. They now cost about three hundred fifty thousand dollars, but they were up to a million and right, and they’re all going there are going up in auction in foreclosure. I know people who know people who plan to retire on owning a medallion. You know, only a medallion or to have now seen that collapsed like fifteen or twenty per cent of its value. You hold your thoughts, Curtis. We take our first break will come. We’ll be right back pursuant a new free e book they have What’s that passes? They have a new free book. The Art of First Impressions. Do you need more donors? Uh, perhaps because you haven’t yet implemented Curtis’s ideas that we’re going to be talking about if Don’t acquisition is important to you. That’s what this is all about. It’s the sixth guiding principles of ineffective acquisition strategy. Howto identify your unique your unique value and use it, plus creative tips. Tony Dahna may slash pursuant with capital P for, please. All right, now, let’s go back to donor-centric. Alright. Thank you for that indulgence, Curtis. You were just you were just talking about We’re talking about taxi medallions. Extreme loss of value because of Yeah, the news. You know, there’s the sharing and gig economy. Yes. Look, I think that the thing that people are finding here is that no matter how big you are, no matter how great you once were, people are big. Even big companies, especially the big companies, are becoming irrelevant in the face of somebody else coming in and better meeting customer needs. And that’s. And that’s just that’s kind of a mantra. Now of if you don’t understand your customers Ah, and and your donor’s well, what makes them passionate? Then somebody else is going to tap into that passion and then leave you behind. You know, we all run the risk of irrelevance every day, and it’s accelerating because the barriers to entry are so low. It’s so easy for somebody to reach our donors now that I think that there’s there’s a real, a real risk of of non-profits becoming irrelevant if they’re not really, really care, keyed into and attuned to the donors needs and and the passions and and their expectations do this comparison form you have. Ah, really, Ah, lot of very interesting numbers. One I wantto Ah, highlight is, um, the comparison of the donor retention in non-profits with what the private sector small companies consider acceptable retention rates. Compare those two for me. Yeah, absolutely. So this is. This is kind of the leaky bucket syndrome here. According to last year’s study in the Fund-raising Effects treyz project, there’s overall. Across the industry, the overall donor attention is about forty five and a half percent, um, for the key donors that have been donating Ah year over year, that number is about sixty to seventy percent. Um, the acceptable private sector small company retention rate is about ninety three to ninety five percent, so there is a huge gap. You know, there’s a fifty percent gap here in between what we are experiencing in the nonprofit sector versus what is deemed acceptable, turn or eternal in the in the commercial sector. And and that makes it really, really hard for us to ah, for us to actually grow if we’re losing that many out out the back door. That overall retention number is just incredible to me, where the overall number of the forty five and a half percent we’re losing more than we’re keeping. Absolutely. Yeah, I understand. For major donors, it’s different. It’s it’s more like sixty seventy percent for higher level donors. But but that overall rate just just floors me and we have talked about this. I’ve had many guests on Latto, not China trying to overcome this, you know, with strategies. But no one has come with the corporate strategies that that you employ. And then again, major brands like JetBlue etcetera. Yeah, okay, what’s one more real quick point on this okay that I like due to just bring it home here is that is Let’s turn this into Let’s turn this into a practical reality here. So in order for us, if we’re dealing with a forty five and a half percent overall retention Um So what that means is that in order to grow by one customer, you have tow land fifty six new customers every year. We’re in order to road to go to grow by one. What, like go buy one year over year, you have tohave fifty six new ones. Yeah, but in order to have a net growth of one new customer, you’re over a year, you have to land fifty six in order to in order to grow in order, Teo, in order to get it up with one more costume this year than you had last year. Similarly, you know, if if the average donation is about forty forty dollars to grow by a dollar, you need to add two thousand four hundred twenty one dollars to have a net growth of one dollar every year. And so what that means is that we’re the non-profits here are just working simply working too hard just to stay afloat because they’re losing their leaking so much out of out of the bucket or losing too many people out the back door. Okay, you’ve got you’re donor-centric city strategy, which has four prongs to it. Why don’t you? You preview those, and then we’re going to go into detail on each one? Sure, absolutely. So there’s I think that there’s there’s four different things that that really need to be. That non-profits really need to focus on one of them is that Dahna retention is acknowledging and convincing everybody in the in the leadership, the donor retention is the easiest way to protect and grow revenue, you know? And then the second one here is Donorsearch. Imitation is absolutely critical to prioritize our investments in in our in our business. And then the third one here is donorsearch I Gration is the way that we grow profits, and we can talk about what, what exactly that means. And then, finally, the donor engagement is what absolutely drives the the fundamental and powerful results that we all want to show you. Okay? And I said, set them up. We were already into donorsearch tension, of course. Yep, you have again another interesting number that a two percent increase in retention will yield a ten percent decreasing costs. Is that because of the cast? Is that because of the cost of acquisition, right, that’s that’s absolutely the case. Okay, what we see here, there were some studies that were done, Ah, over the last the last number of years here where they where they found that if we a two percent gain in retention is the same as decreasing our costs by as much as ten percent. So a ten percent haircut across the board can be alleviated by just, ah to gain in retention. And why is that? It’s theirs. There’s a There’s a couple of things. It’s far, far less expensive to retain an existing customer than it is to gather to get a new one, right? We know that, and you know it’s anywhere from, you know, to seventeen percent Mohr. Ah, more expensive to acquire to acquire new ones. And the existing customers are are eighty percent more likely to buy again. Ah, because after they’ve already crossed that first hurdle. And so the donors, it’s exactly the same thing. They don’t if they’ve donated in the past there far, far more likely to donate again. But we’re not leveraging them as well as we could. Yes. Okay. Okay. So let’s let’s get smarter about leveraging them. Let’s go to segmentation where this is something we’ve had other guests talk about, too. But you have a little different spin on it. What? Explain it, please. Yeah, Yeah. So one of the things that I like to show on in a presentation here is a collection of of ten men, all in the same suit. Some of them are tall, Some are short, some of her heavy set, some of her extraordinarily slender. And the suit on ly fits one person perfectly well, but it really doesn’t fit anybody else. And so you know the point that that that this makes here is that not all of our customers are created equally, and it’s astronomically expensive for a clothier to tailor the suit. Absolutely everyone. And as much as we’d like to give everyone the perfect fitting suit, we have to be more selective. And so what that means is that we have to be more selective in who we choose to choose to serve, we may be able to create a suit that fits instead of ten people. Maybe it Maybe it fits five, and with a little tiny bit of tailoring, we can make it work for this group of five. But it would be astronomically expensive Teo to address the other, the other five. So the private companies come. Private sector companies have become very selective through this notion of segmentation, which is a division into discrete customer groups that share similar characteristics and and by aligning our, um ah ourselves around this notion of ah segmentation and allows us to do four things really well. It allows us to align people, align our purpose, a mission and values with those people that truly value those things. It allows us to be laser focused on this smaller group of people and figure out what air their unmet needs. And how can we deliver those needs that air more useful toe to this narrowly narrow group rather than a scattershot trying to be all things to all people? It allows us to with a segmentation. It allows us to get greater value from so from high profit individuals and lower profit individuals. And then it allows us if we do it right. You know, the best companies go beyond just segmenting according to how much money are they giving us? But they focus on need and behavior and and the potential to give us more money to donate more money or two participate with us in more ways. And so So the segmentation gives us a ah ah. Lot more room in which we can operate because we’re serving a smaller audience. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And now, part of what you say in segmentation and it’s it’s it’s absorbed in what? In what you just said, just one make explicit is that, you know, if if we’re gonna love all our donors, we have to love some more because it just can’t be. It can’t be equivalent across. And that’s what you’re That’s what your ten guys in suits. Of course it could be. You know, maybe I should mix out. Maybe should have also beside that ten women in dresses that are only ill fitting that are ill fitting nine, But absolutely Okay. Okay, so But what that means then under buy-in intended. Okay, I understand, but So what that means is, you know, in an impact. I’m thinking, you know, as the guy who doesn’t fly very much me, You know, I’m the one who never gets the upgrade. You know, I have a hotel brand Marriott. I’m very loyal to them, so they take care of me. But if I stay at a Hilton, I don’t get, you know, I don’t get the upgrades. So what you did say, though, that you did mention people at the bottom or the smaller donors there’s there is something for them to so make me make me feel good about this segmentation process. Yeah, You know, this this is this is one of the hardest challenges with with tearing and with segmentation and tearing is that everybody wants to be Ah wants to treat all of our customers equal and and as much as we would love to, we just simply can’t There are not enough resource is there’s not enough people in our organization. There’s not enough money in our organization to treat everybody the same. And so we have to be precisely because we love our customers. We actually have to treat them differently. We have to love some of them Mohr and and the the The reason for this is that loving some of them Mohr enables us to fulfill our mission. It remains it enables us to remain a going concern. We have to focus on those we absolutely cannot afford to lose. So ah, great example of this is the oxygen masks that come down in the what in the or the or that are talked about coming down in the onboarding airline instruction. Even though a lesson even those of us in coach economy. We still get Air Basques, you know, waiting for the time you’ve got to put a quarter in to get the oxygen mask. It’s kind of like putting the quarter in to use the restroom, right? For all of you know, for all the change. I can’t. I mean, I hope they take cards. When that happens, I think I can swipe and then I get the oxygen drop down. Okay. Yeah. So? So the notion here is that they want you to make sure that you take care of the less advantaged First, you know, the children, the elderly, whatever the infirm, so so that you can you want to make sure that they take? I’m sorry. You gotta take care of things here. Yeah, yeah. Good care of yourself first, because you’re no good to anybody next to you if you’ve gone loopy or if you passed out because the time of useful consciousness here on the airplane, if they in a case of rapid depressurization is thirty to sixty seconds or less, you know, fifteen seconds. And so you have to take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others. And so when you come back to ah, looking at our donors in order to keep serving all of our customers, we have to be able to take care of of some of our best customers first, because they keep, they pay the bills, they keep the lights on and enable us to do to serve some of our other customers or donors that may not be paying quite as much. Um, you know, there’s a there’s a great ah, great example of ah, large non-profit here. Who? Who said that every month there’s a there’s a sweet little lady that’s writing out a check for a dollar. Fifty a check for a dollar fifty, and and we’d love her to death. But it actually cost us more to process that. Then the cheque is worth. And so we lover, We want her to continue because it feels good for her, and we love her attitude, inner spirit. But we also need to focus on those on those donors that are going to keep the light on. And when we do that, That gives us the opportunity to create initiatives to create value that trickles down through the organization and that everybody benefits and also subsidizes the processing of that dollar fifty check and the and the acknowledgement letter that goes out to her right. So it enables us another worst thing would be to, say, return that cheque and say, I’m sorry, we don’t want your money. I mean, that would be that would be devastating to that that sweet old woman or two. Not more traumatic or to not acknowledge it, because you just never know if that dollar fifty year donor on that’s a really extreme example. I’ve never really even seen e-giving that small, but but I’ve seen certainly lots of ten and fifteen dollars year donors and they can become your your plan gift donor zoho be the person who dies. You don’t know it because you’re not close to them. You’ve been acknowledging they’re they’re very small gifts, but you don’t know that they died until you get a notice of probate and you find out that there in your will and you have your residual beneficiary. And it’s a very it’s a five million dollar estate. There’s some small, outright bequest to some distant cousins, and you’ve got fifty percent of the residual that’s left. That is not that uncommon you. So just as coming strictly from you come from the corporate side, and I know that you’re not saying, Ignore those people who give ten dollars a year. But you have to treat them differently and not as can’t spend as much time with them as you do the higher level names. I understand that. But I would never say Don’t acknowledge that even dollar and a half a year donor-centric Q. Because you just never know what else might be there. Okay, Just shout out from the from the from the fund-raising side. But you’re not. Not that you’re antithetical to fund-raising I’m not suggesting that at all. Just just bringing in the plant e-giving side. That’s all. Okay, um, we just have about, like, two minutes before a break. Give me a couple of strategies for how we can show that love. On any level. Any level. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that that’s that’s really fascinating here. Problem. Before we dive into that question, here is its figure. Who are your best customers? Your best donors. You know, we look att att these folks by how much money that they’re giving. We also need an add add another dimension of that which is how passionate are they buy-in about your cause. They may not be giving you the most money, but they may be absolutely one hundred percent passionate. And those air really useful to Corral and Teo to invite into the tent, if you will, so that you can invite them to help you invite them to participate in AA in a bunch of your activities. Because they may not be able to give you give you a lot of money. They may be able to give you connections and time and and introductions that could be hugely valuable to you. Okay, we’re going to take this break, and then when we come back, I’m goingto ask Curtis How you how you start to How do you identify those? Those critical to keep donors. When you see piela, they’re kicking off a remote non-profit roundtable Siri’s each quarter a Wagner CPAs C P a bona fide will cover a topic that they know intimately, and you need to know basic understanding. Last week was revenue recognition for grants and contracts. You can watch that archive video at weger cps dot com. Click Resource is then seminars. Now time for Tony’s. Take two. You want to be a non-profit radio insider? It’s time. Why is that exclusive content NUFER The New Year I’m kicking off expanded guest interviews that are exclusively for non-profit radio insiders. Each week, I’m going to go deeper into a topic with the guest. We’re going to do this with Curtis when when the show is over or cover something that we didn’t talk about on the show Curtis and I are going to talk about is he’s got an exercise that we’re going to talk about in the insider video. Now that sounds like something that would be behind a Paywall. And for many podcasters. Maybe it is, but not this one. There’s no pay. Absolutely not so But I do ask you to do is be an insider. I want you to get the weekly insider alerts, and the way to do that is go to tony martignetti dot com and click the Insider alerts button. That’s it. That’s the way to gain your access to exclusive these private five minute videos that are going to be producing for insiders. Now let’s get back to Curtis Bingham and Donor-centric Donor-centric City. All right, Curtis. How do we identify those who are critical to keep? I think it begins with, like, Like I said, obviously we’re looking at some of the metric we may be looking at segmenting our donor’s based on, you know, dollar contribution, recency frequency, volume, whatever that those air traditional metrics here, but there’s there’s a there’s a different, um, different scale toe. Add to the mix here, and that is, you know, passionate. How passionate are they about your about your mission? Are they donating to you because they because it’s mandated by the company, are they? Or do they have a loved one that is, you know, that may have been suffering from cancer or leukemia o. R. Or whatever it is, you know. Are they passionate because they have a family involved in, uh, in the in the benefits that directly benefits from the from the charity? So, you know, it’s it’s really there’s There’s any number of ways in which we in which you could assess that passion, whether it’s through surveys or direct contact or or you know, our Albert calls or, you know, executive executive meetings, whatever the cases. But looking at, they’re at their passion and figure out who are the most passionate. Ah, even though they may not be giving the largest amount of money. And then you look at at a slice at one Mohr way here and that’s looking at Where are they donating? Are they donating, you know, dollar to you in a dollar to somebody else and a dollar to somebody down there down the road more? Are they donating everything, all of their discretionary income to you? And so if you put those on a on A on a force where four square box with passionate about your mission over the top and dedicated donations over to the right, the most valuable people are those people. The most valuable customers or our donors are those that are absolutely passionate about your mission, and they don’t get it. They don’t donate. They don’t spread around their donations. They are donating everything that they have over to, Ah, over to you. And that’s that’s this notion of share of wallet What percentage of a customer spending our donors donations is captured by your brand or your or your firm. And so it’s really valuable. Lot of the best private sector companies here. Commercial sector companies here are really starting to do this segmentation by share of wallet because it shows some very fascinating things, and it uncovers people who are really valuable to your company that that may not have shown up and just be in just sheer dollar volume contributed. And this this wallet share gives us a really fascinating way of looking at our at our donors and figuring out which ones we need to keep, which ones we need to grow and which ones just really. There’s too much competition. Let them go, too, to somebody else. Tio. Thank them for whatever donations that they’re doing. But don’t spend an inordinate amount of money trying to convince them to donate more because they never will. How our company’s measuring share of wallet How are they learning that it’s there’s a There’s a really interesting way of ah, of measuring it. You know, there’s a number of really different, really complex calculations that some of the big companies are doing. But there was a really fascinating article that came out was published in The Wall Street Journal in I’m Sorry, the Harvard Business Review Rather in two thousand eleven, and it talks about the wall allocation rule and I’m happy to send. Send people a link to that if they if they’re interested in receiving this and walking through it. But it was based on a study of one hundred seventy thousand customers over two years, and they found that the share of wallet was very highly correlated with actual purchases in A in a commercial sector. And what they found was that they went just really briefly. What they did was they looked at for each brand or each non-profit what are the the the relevant, the perfectly relevant competing brands that people are choosing to donate metoo and then you, you do a survey. You Ah, you. You call them up, whatever. And you get them to measure to describe how much they are contributing to each of these different different non-profit organizations, and then you convert that into a rank, and the computation is very is very straightforward. And so you get you, you, Khun marry that with a kind of an estimated money that they’re giving to competing brands. And you can. You can calculate the share of wallet, and it’s a fantastically easy back of the envelope. Method for calculating share of wallet And it gives you workable information that you Khun then used in in prioritizing your spending to Trier to acquire and retain some of these donors. That just it just makes a lot of sense to me that the ones you wantto focus on the most are those that are giving you the largest share of their disposable income. Or maybe maybe it was their charitable dollars. Maybe have to narrow it down to that. All right. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I’m okay. I want to make sure we get everything there’s. So let’s move to migration. Getting getting people, getting people, getting people more Mohr. Well, moving them over, moving them over to the today, I think, to the right of that quadrant that you described and and ultimately to the to the to the upper to the upper right. Yeah, the the this this is fascinating because, you know, like you said, the big question is how do we migrate them from one bucket to the to the other? How do we make them more passionate about our cause? How do we get a larger share of wallet? And and this actually came out of some work that Hillary noon and of who is now a pursuant. Ah, and I worked on a number of years ago. She when she was American Cancer Society and she was really interested in How do you retain and activate donors and volunteers and at the time and still is to some extent, loyalty was all the rage, but but But it didn’t really tell us anything. Um, you know, Net promoter score. A lot of people are using this net promoter score, which is your willingness to recommend a brand Teo somebody else. It didn’t really tell us anything because it measures some intense take future action. And, you know, St Jude’s was a great example here. Were with their net promoter scored. Nobody will give anything but a ten. Everybody gives them attend because even though a service interaction might have been miserable, If you give anything less than a ten, it’s a knock against the kids, and you just simply don’t know the kid. So we interviewed a number of CCO Council members, and we found that NPS, the Net promoter score, doesn’t actually measure behavior. But engagement does. And so this this notion of of customer engagement was was built up here, and we found that it. Actually, if we the more we engage your customers, the more likely they are to collaborate with us, advocate with us and and and donate money to us. And so So this notion here is, um, you know, customer engagement here is we defined. I define it as the extent of a customer’s willingness to invest his or her discretionary time with a company for mutual benefit. So how willing if a company of if a person is really engaged, they’re willing to help you do things, they’re willing to collaborate with you. They’re willing to participate in your activities to help with fund-raising. They’re willing to make introductions. They’re willing to do things on your behalf, and then how do we measure it? It’s the measurement is the sum of all of the activities that build a positive, positive emotional attachment between a company and and customers, and that results in greater involvement, greater advocacy and greater revenue and profit. And so, you know, there’s a There’s a couple of things that that people have done to engage. Engage your customers. So so you have to have the basic blocking and tackling, right? You can’t. You can’t be treating customers poorly. But once you’ve got the basic blocking tackling right, then you can start engaging in them. How can you get them to collaborate with you? What can you do to actually, What can you ask them to do to help you with? If they help you, they arm or invested in your success. So are we talking? Are we talking about small things? Like just sign a petition, call a congressman? Things like things like that to start. Yes. And Mohr OK, I think that getting them to do something for you creates this. This need for reciprocity. Um, they the more that you can get them to do for you, the more inclined they are to, um you want to support you. And so when When? When we were together. Ah, A little bit ago at at pursuance conference, I talked to a number of the non-profits that were there, and and there was a couple of really great examples. I mean, one of them, there was one non-profit there who would have you received a call from someone after a podcast saying, Hey, the noise quality on your podcast has really deteriorated. I’m a sound engineer. It’s really bothering me. Can I come and help you fix the problem? And so they said, Well, of course. And they came in. The gentleman came in spend a day crawling underneath all of the cabinets and countertops and fixed, replaced a bunch of replaced on board some wires and and electronics and solve the problem for them. And that’s something that they didn’t have the capability of doing. Now you look at this on the another dream there is another. There was another non-profit there that I could hold on. You hold that example because I gotta take a break. But before, I don’t want to make explicit that thie podcast The person was complaining The sound of was not twenty. Martignetti non-profit radio that was some non-profit had not, Not not non-profit. Okay, tell us, can you use more money? Do you need an additional revenue source? You want to diversify revenue, you get a long stream of passive revenue. When companies you refer to tell us process their credit card transactions through Tello’s, you watch the video and then send potential companies that you could refer to watch that same video You get the long stream the fifty percent of the fee for each transaction that Tello’s processes. And that adds up the video. Is that tony dot m a slash Tony Tello’s We got to do the live listener love. And there is ah lot Tampa, Florida Adelanto, California Wilmington, Wilmington, North Carolina, Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York, Northvale, New Jersey Very close to where I grew up in old Japan. Live love to each of those cities. Wilmington special shout out to you, of course, North Carolina. But the love is see that I can’t do it. Equal, limited, egalitarian Lee. Equally, Curtis has a word. Equanimity, equanimity, But Quinn Emelius Lee, because I just, you know, I live in North Carolina, so that’s there in the like that in the upper quad to the upper right quadrant. But then the live love goes out to everybody else, too. From Adelanto, California to Tampa, Florida and Brooklyn, New York and New York, New York. All right, let’s go abroad to ah, wow! Taipei, Taiwan and Beijing China Knee How Teo to our listeners, they’re Islamabad, Pakistan, Seoul, South Korea. On your haserot comes a ham Nida in Savi, Edo, Japan. Konnichi Wa, Hanoi, Vietnam. Tehran, Iran. Sudan is with us. I don’t believe we’ve had to. Sudan Listener Live love to each of those live listeners in who are abroad and the podcast pleasantries, the vast majority of our audience over thirteen thousand listeners each week. The podcast listeners pleasantries to you. I am grateful and thankful that you are with us week after week after week after week. You’re sticking with us because it’s great value. I mean, there’s like there’s about your questioning. I’m just, ah, having some fun pleasantries to the podcast audience right now. Back to Curtis Bingham. Who, Curtis. You have another example of a non-profit engagement and migration? Yeah, there was there was one person there at the at the event. There was one non-profit here that that there ah, there are a number of their large donors were brought in to help them create a donor survey program. There was another one that had a fantastic example where they brought in a number of employees from Amazon to take a tour of their of their warehouse facility and the Amazon employees. They asked the vast Amazon if they had any advice for them in how to improve their logistics. And Amazon brought in a team of their own warehouse logistics managers and in a couple of days just completely redesigned their their warehouse, using all of the best practices that Amazon has developed over over the years. You know, another great example is that there is one one non-profit has a number of technology corporate partners, and they were able to go to them and say, What is the bait? The best online HR system that you have found and and they had intended to spend. I’m doing some research on this, and the company came back said, Look, we’ve already done The research here is the best one. We’ll even help you implement it. And so, you know, the real question for you is you’re trying to engage your donors is to think about what can you ask them to do for you? How can you help in engage them in helping you fulfill your mission? You know it can be small, like fixing the fixing some of the audio on your podcast. It can be large to helping implement a large AARP system or revamping your warehouse logistics. But the thing is, how can you ask people to help? And one of things that I think people are afraid to do is ask people for help. They’re getting really good at asking people to donate, but they’re afraid of asking people for help. And yet, asking people to help you is allows them to go beyond just kind of a passive donate donate or to someone who’s actively engaged when they’re actively engaged in collaborating with you. They’re more likely to advocate for you. And then it’s not just about telling them, Go talk, go tell your friends and family or bring them to some sort of a you know, Black Tie fund-raising event. It’s here, introduced me to these people or talk to the CEO of this company here. That’s that’s possibly that’s considering making our charity a corporate, you know, a corporate sponsorship. And so, so once they are more eager to collaborate with you, they’re Mohr eager to ah, to be very vocal and advocate for you. And that’s when they start changing their behaviour and donating Mohr and staying longer, donating and advocating. As you said Now, Tio, know what people want to be engaged in where their interests lie. You need to be listening. And you you mentioned possibly surveying for for for for those high level, most engaged owners, the ones in the upper right quadrant that maybe personal meetings, personal face-to-face meetings where you’re finding out what it is that moves the person. Is that Is that your research? Is that your advocacy is that your your program for survivors of domestic abuse? Is that your mental health work? You know What is it that moves them that then you can engage them. You know, appropriately, with opportunities that at least are, you know, we’re going to appeal. Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, this is This is it’s very, very easy to do. There’s a There was an article that was published in the Harvard Business Review just this month that talks about how easy it is to figure out why customers buy from you. Um, and in ten twelve interviews, you confined out the five six reasons why customers buy from you, Ah, and and be able to articulate them better than anybody inside your company ever could. And the same thing could apply here in five or six interviews ten interviews with with some of your most valuable donors. You could find out the hot buttons that you need to start pushing in all of your marketing communications in all of your your your your donor meetings of the hot button that you push on social media in your advertisements. And when. Once you know those hot buttons because you’ve listened to them, you heard it directly from them. You’re far more likely to capture those passion and bring those. Bring them in. You’ve twice. Now you’ve mentioned Harvard Business Review. I have to stop reading U S. A. Today. I think I need to step up. I’ll step up my another another mix. OK. All right. Yes. Diversify. Diversify. Okay, um, so have we. You feel like I mean, just for the hour. We have to wait before I get that. Where’s your book? How come I can’t referred listeners to a book that you’ve written that that covers all this? I’ve been threatening to write a book forever, and and I I acknowledge that I have been remiss in working on too many things. That’s the problem that I have is that I have too many great ideas and and not enough. Not enough assistance, I think, Teo, capture them all and and take advantage of all of the brilliant ideas that are on the cutting room floor. Yeah, no kidding. My God, man, I break last break. Hoexter give. Can you use more money? Another revenue source down. He’s a second way Mentioned one before. You know the way of diversifying mobile e-giving you can learn about it with text to gives very simple five part email, Many course over five days. One e mail a day. You’re only five emails away from raising money through mobile giving. Or at least learning more about it. Lots of misconceptions. Um, so to start the many course, where do you go? You What do you do? You text n pr. November, Papa. Romeo. Two, four, four, four, nine, nine, nine. All right, we’ve got several more minutes before we hit the rap with with Donor-centric and Curtis. OK, All right. So I’ve admonished you about the book. I’m sure I’m not the first person to tell you earlier, monisha if you had one, I would be telling listeners, they gotta buy it. All right. So have we covered migration and engagement satisfactorily? Anything more you want to say about those? Yeah, really, really quick. There’s a couple of things that, um that you can weaken look at in in collaboration and advocacy. So, you know, I have some more resource is if anybody’s interested that talk about some of the ways in which you can collaborate, you really quickly you can get feedback from them. You know, whether it’s advisory board, focus group, you can involve Minya strategic planning process, cubine involvement, innovation activities or excess. Ours is you can enlist their services to help mutually support other other other donors, other customers, other volunteers, you know, participate in in in a lot of your your fund-raising activities and make introductions and so on advocacy, you know, you could use them in your used them in marketing, put put together the stories of why people are donating and, uh, and put him in your marketing. Um, let them generate help generate your marketing. MetLife did a great job of this a little while back where they put together a, They asked some of their their customers to write a letter to the to a family member, describing why it’s so important for everybody to have life insurance. Why, it’s so important for this family member to have life insurance, and they didn’t actually end up running the ads with them. But they got really rich information as to how people view this. This tired old thing called life. And so, you know, how can you use them to help you win your promotions and your marketing? You know what kind of doors, Khun? They open for you. What? How can they help you on social media? What can they do, Teo? Generate content and ideas and donation opportunities for you. So a lot of different ways in which you can get them. You can collaborate and advocate. Okay, Awesome. We still have several minutes left together. So what? What? Have I not asked you satisfactorily that waken going tomb or or something we haven’t covered? What? We still got time left. I think I think you’ve covered. Covered most everything here. I think that you’re kind of the the things to the takeaways here. Is that as much as as sexy as it is to continue focusing on bringing in new new donors every year. You really, really have to start focusing on retaining the year exists thing stopping that revolving door, um, and and we need to figure out how to keep our top tier donors. You know, we one of the things that that we looked at here is, you know, kind of in the share of wallet we talked about, talked a little bit earlier about, you know, segmenting the customers by share of wallets. And there’s a group of customers that you need to focus to focus on retaining. You know, just don’t do anything wrong. They’ll stay with you forever because they have a very high share of wallets. There’s a there’s a group that you have to focus to protect, to make sure that other nonprofit organizations don’t get in there and and lead them away. And then there’s a group that you should that you need to focus on growing because they have, ah, high potential share of wallet. But there’s there’s also this this notion here that, you know, there’s there’s There’s a big thing that people do in the non-profit, which is to share their donor lists. And for these, these categories of customers here, the segments of customers that you’re focusing on retaining and protecting and growing man for the love of God. Don’t share those names on that list. Oh, my God. What? Anybody hearing that you’re destroying that share of wallet? Yeah. Lower tiers. Oh, my God. Sure. Away. Yeah. Yeah. But don’t share these names here because because you want to capture more sure of wallet. You don’t want to incite them. Or in our invite them, too, to go back and and disperse their payments because everybody deserves something. Yeah. Now that well in the sharing of lists also has privacy concerns around it. You know, I don’t know that that seems like a risky that’s that just that sharing of any of any names like that. That sounds like a a risky proposition if if a donor figures that out even even even a low level donor-centric fied, they’ll tell ten people hyre. Right. All right, all right. Cars were going, Tio. We’re gonna leave it there. And so you you offered lots of resource is so I will remind people that they can get you. Ah, Twitter at Curtis Bingham for additional resource is because the man hasn’t written a book. I don’t know. I’m surprised I even had you on No I want to thank you very much. Thank you so much for sharing great ideas. Thank you. Thank you. Been delightful. And for insiders that the additional content is going to be an engagement exercise, Curtis and I are going to share with you next week. Courageous communication with Mary and er sh If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled Tony dahna slash Pursuing Curtis gave them a very good shot out. All technology enabled. Data driven. Absolutely. Bye weinger SEPA is guiding you beyond the numbers. Weinger cps dot com By Telus Credit Card and Payment Processing your passive revenue stream Tony dahna slash Tony Tello’s and by text to give mobile donations made easy text. NPR to four four four nine nine nine Our Creative Producers Clan miree Off Sam Leibowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein of Brooklyn, New York They’re with me next week for Non-profit Radio Big non-profit Ideas for the other ninety five percent go out and be great. Duitz. Metoo. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get you thinking. Cubine you’re listening to the talking alternative now, are you stuck in a rut? 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