And welcome to Tony Martignetti nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I am your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d be forced to endure the pain of kyphosis. If you twisted me around the idea that you missed this week’s show, here’s our associate producer, Kate to introduce it. Hey, Tony, here’s what’s up accepting Cryptocurrency gifts, code, Blockchain, proofs, wallets, exchanges, coins. If foreign words like these keep you from accepting a gift that tens of millions of gen Z and millennials invest in and gift. Pat Duffy will set your mind at ease. He defines the terms in plain language and explains why crypto giving belongs on your donation page. He’s co founder of the giving block on Tony’s Steak too. We have a new president were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forums for your nonprofit donor box.org here is accepting Cryptocurrency gifts. It’s a pleasure to welcome Pat Duffy to nonprofit radio. Pat co-founded the giving block, creating the new fundraising category, crypto philanthropy. The giving block helps thousands of nonprofits, fundraise cryptocurrencies, stocks and donor advised fund grants. He was a Forbes 30 under 30 in social impact in 2022. You’ll find the company at the Giving block.com and you’ll find Pat Duffy on linkedin. Pat. Welcome to nonprofit radio. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad you’re with us. Uh, ok, let’s start with basics le let’s make sure everybody understands the, just the essentials, the basics of what Cryptocurrency is before we start talking about how your nonprofit can benefit from it. Yeah, definitely people overcomplicate it a lot. So in very simple terms, it’s a digital form of asset. It’s kind of like money in the sense that you can move it anywhere in the world really quickly. You can sit in an account. Um, it’s fungible divisible. Um But it kind of plays the role of a stock um or of gold kind of stores, the value in the sense that a lot of these cryptocurrencies have a set, um number of units that can’t be increased. The code is written that way. So there’s a scarcity element where you can buy into something and know that it won’t be um manufactured and won’t be creative of it. Uh And then it’s kind of like stocks and that a lot of these cryptocurrencies have speculative values where people are kind of betting on whether or not they’ll go up or down. Um But all of them for the most part are built off of Blockchain. And that is just uh kind of computer riddles, cryptographic uh proofs that are solving uh problems. And when they all um agree on the solution to that proof, a transaction is authorized and money moves so really secure way to store value, to move value. Um super cost efficient, just kind of a really effective version of digital money. Ok. Now it has been with us for years in, in, in the mainstream uh are fairly mainstream. There’s probably argument about that but it would be generous, you know, say mainstream at least or at least fairly mainstream. OK? But when you uh when you start to say, all right, so it’s, it’s sort of like you mentioned gold but then there’s code and you talk about scarcity and some people for some people, it’s speculative and it’s on the Blockchain and you talk about proofs, this is the stuff, this is the stuff that I think makes people like what the what are we talking about here? So, so, all right, that is an overview but we gotta, we gotta drill down what you know, like code and scarcity and speculative and Blockchain proofs uh reassure our listeners that this is something that is safe. Uh you mentioned safe, but you got to explain why the Blockchain and the proofs make it safe. Like why? OK, why is this something that we should just think about before we even start about how to get into it. We’re not there yet. Why should we consider bringing this to our board? Uh you know, with scarcity and speculative and Blockchain and proofs? Yeah, definitely. So every technology that you’re interfacing with sounds like this if you dig into it. So it’s just at a super high level. If you think about Bluetooth and Wi Fi, I even say like if you’re going to buy a car, like most people aren’t really in tune with the fact that like pistons are firing and like, what is the transmission? Like there’s all these things, it would sound infinitely more complicated than it needs to with every technology. Eventually you get to a place of like, why should I care? Do I need to use it? Has it been made easy for me? Um Those sorts of questions when it comes to crypto are important, we’ll get into those to answer the question first about like the complexity of it, like the Blockchain and the proofs and everything else. Like why do we even need something like this? We had money, we have gold, we have stocks. Like what’s the point? Um When you are sending money from one place to another, there’s no real system for it. Like ultimately what’s kind of happening is people are updating numbers and spreadsheets and there are automated processes for it. But like there’s no formalized system that’s authorizing that like there are lawyers authorizing whether or not an agreement is actually legitimate, right? Or that both parties have agreed to it. There are banks authorizing whether or not funds are in one place or another, right? There are people who are initiating transactions and kind of choosing where to park their money. Um When you think about stores of value, you can’t really store value with something like cash. Um you have to have something like gold and gold isn’t fungible, right? You can’t take a piece of gold and divide it and send it on the internet real quick. What do you think about something like stocks? You’re speculating on these assets that are tied to a company but doesn’t really function like money. You can’t move stocks between individual will or try to like stake your stock somewhere and earn interest very conveniently because it’s not technologically driven. There’s a lot of inefficiency in all these different types of money and stocks and gold. So what these cryptographers were trying to figure out is like, can we create a more um useful financial instrument? And in doing so, could we make it so that it’s infinitely more scalable than something like dollars in terms of where the dollars come from? In terms of how difficult it is to move money to one place versus another. Like ultimately, the money isn’t actually moving. We have something called fractional reserve banking where a bank is kind of pretending there’s more money in the bank than there is when you wire money to a bank, they’re not actually getting a bag of cash from somewhere else to kind of back it. Um So what you have with Cryptocurrency in short is you write this code and the code is formalized and it can’t be changed and it says it’s gonna do a few things. We’ll take Bitcoin as an example. So with Bitcoin, they go, there’s only ever gonna be this many Bitcoin and we write the code in a way where it can’t ever be altered. So people will know for sure in the way that when you have dollars sitting in the bank, the Federal Reserve during COVID, for instance, could print a bunch of money devaluing your uh savings. That can’t happen with Bitcoin if people go. But that’s great. There’s a 0% chance that more supply will be injected, but I can still have this asset. It’s easy to move around. Ok? I like that. And then people go, well, if I wanna send it to somebody else, how do I know it’s gonna get there? Right. Or if I have it, how can I prove that? I actually have it and someone can’t just take it away or say it isn’t sitting in my account. Um The code is again written with the cryptography where you would have to get more than half of the computers involved in Bitcoin to all simultaneously agree on the false premise that it isn’t your Bitcoin or the false premise that you send it somewhere else? You’d have to orchestrate what is an impossible level of scale and it packing all of these devices at once, maybe the most secure way and the most provable way to say, I actually have a thing or it’s actually gone where I said, I’d like it to. So you go, ok. So I have a more guaranteed way of saying I own something and a more guaranteed way of saying I’ve moved it somewhere else and people say I like that too and then there’s an efficiency component. So because it’s all code based, you don’t need banks to code is what authorized the transactions. You don’t need banks to prove that you have the asset or to say I moved it to someone else. It’s so much more cost effective and um you don’t have to spend as much money moving it from one place to the other. So you go, oh I could move a billion dollars instantaneously, you know, within a matter of seconds at the lowest cost possible without all these middle men and infrastructural components. So you’re writing code more or less to replace what are a bunch of inefficiencies in the asset types from like cash to stock gold and then the institutions necessary to move those asset types or prove that they’re in a particular position or pretend that they’re in a particular position with a lot of finance So it’s just a really efficient alternate financial system that solves for a lot of problems that cash had, the stocks had that gold had. So people are betting on it when people hold something like Bitcoin, they’re kind of betting on it as if you had a share of stock. Like cell phones are gonna be used more often because they’re so much more convenient than a landline. People are holding Bitcoin oftentimes as a correlated asset saying, I think this cryptography in finance, this uh cryptographic proof of work system. These blockchains, I think these tools are gonna be used more and that companies are gonna use uh these crypto assets to make their systems more efficient. Uh So that’s explaining the technology. Second half of your question was why should nonprofits take it seriously? Well, ok. All right. Before we get there, we, we will, we will, we gotta, we gotta tick off a few things. Um You, well, first of all, let’s reassure people, you said you’re writing code, but let’s just reassure people they’re not writing code, you’re not, you’re not profit is not writing the, the code is written in, in such a well, the code is already written for cryptocurrencies, right? I just wanna make that like when you’re on Google, when you’re using your iphone, when you’re using your tax software, the code is serving a particular purpose. Definitely, you’re just clicking buttons. There’s just making sure that somebody doesn’t say, well, wait, I have to write code. No. OK. If there was a listener who didn’t quite understand. OK. Um You, you said it’s uh now you said it’s scalable, but then you also said there’s a, there’s a finite amount. Those, those two, those two sound incongruous to me. So what am I not? What am I not getting about your explanation? No, great question. So, scalability in terms of the infrastructure, like how much money you can move over a particular period of time or how effectively it can solve different problems. And like if 100,000 people send the transaction or one person sends a transaction, it doesn’t become more difficult, right? You can fit more of these transactions into one block and have them approved. It actually becomes more energy efficient. The more transactions that happen in the sense that if you’re doing one transaction, you’re cracking all these codes to solve it, it kind of takes a lot of energy. This is one of the complaints of something like Bitcoin, but the more people who end up using the technology is actually uh authorizing more transactions at less cost. So it’s scalable in the sense that it allows for, if you wanted to scale the traditional financial ecosystem, you would need skyscrapers, you would need human employees, you would need a bunch of cars, taking them to buildings, you would need more lawyers, more agreements. Um When you do that off of a code base you can make an infinitely larger financial system to offer infinitely more transactions um at infinitely lower cost and more uh effectiveness. So, not scalable in the sense that you create more of the assets themselves. Um but scalable in the sense that more people can participate in that network at lower cost. Ok. Lower cost, greater efficiency, right. So, I mean, comparing it to uh you know, checks, you know, there’s a lot of, if there’s a heavy mail volume in the week, let’s say it’s the final week of December and is a heavy mail volume. You have to wait longer for your check to get to the nonprofit. You have to wait longer during certain periods for your broker to make a stock transfer for you. Even if it’s, to me, it’s just, it seems like it’s only a couple of keystrokes. But sometimes you say, well, it takes up to 3 to 3 business days to, well, it’s like you, you, you, you’re typing a couple of keys. What, what is the three business days? But anyway, uh but brokers, brokers can be all right, broke. All right. So, and to your point, you know, you made the same point. You’d have to build, build a bigger buildings and have more bank employees to scale, you know, billions of transactions or something. All right, I see. I understand. Thank you. Explain the scale up. Um Another one, you talk about, uh you know, security, you’d have to convince more than half of the servers that are, that are part of the chain that you own, the asset that you’re claiming that you own or you’re owning the, uh, we’re not talking about dozens. Reassure people. How many, what’s the scale of the server, the servers that are involved in? You know, let’s just stick with Bitcoin. That was your example for the, for the currency so far. Oh, yeah, I’d have to look up the number but I mean, there’s millions. It could be tens, hundreds. I, I’d have to look at what it is. Um, but in short, when you, when I say I’m gonna send Tony, you know, $100 in Bitcoin, what it does is it wraps it in a cryptographic riddle more or less that these miners. When you hear about like Bitcoin mining, you have all these computers that are waiting to crack riddles. These are riddles that like humans can’t solve it. A computer needs to figure it out and the faster they solve it and by getting it correct, they get a little reward that’s like released on the network. So they, they get a little bit of money off that. So they’re all university incentivized to solve it correctly. You would have to hack into all of these individual computers and get them to simultaneously, uh, agree that an incorrect proof is actually a correct proof that says instead of your wallet is the endpoint someone else’s wallet is the end point, which was impossible. More or less when there were even like 50 of these computers doing it. You’d have to orchestrate and crack into everyone’s system which all has their own security protocols. Um, it just becomes infinitely more impossible over time. So at a bank you can log into one bank uh computer and you can change the records on the spreadsheet or you could push money out of an account to another person. You’d actually have to convince, um, you know, millions of these super computers more or less that the money isn’t actually an Tony’s accounts in someone else’s. And then the same thing is true for changing a transaction record, which is why law enforcement um prefers crypto transactions to cash. Why they think it’s so much more traceable and safe. Um If you’re a criminal who’s moved Bitcoin, let’s say, from one wallet to another, you could never change the record or cook the books like it has moved from a wallet to another wallet. You would need that same level of computer takeover to just pretend you didn’t move money or you took it somewhere. So at an individual level, it allows for its privacy if I send it to you and we’re not being investigated by the FBI. If you’re a company, I could transfer funds without having to go through all the protocols. But if law enforcement were to try to investigate, did you do something you weren’t supposed to do. There’s no way for me to pretend I didn’t commit a crime or move money to that other person. It’s permanently locked in and traceable. All right. Reassuring. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location. So you can grow your impact faster. That’s Donor box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers. Just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability, your organization needs, helping you help others visit donor box.org to learn more. Now back to accepting Cryptocurrency gifts. All right. So let’s let’s move to um the value, you know, why, why should, why should nonprofits pay attention to this? I mean, I let’s talk a little about like giving trends a bit to, I’m sure this skews by age younger, I I happen to be a baby boomer, young, young, very young, very very young, baby boomer, very young baby, boomer uh mathematic. No, but mathematical proof by, by, by birth year. Uh I, I’m very young baby boomer. Um in case I hadn’t mentioned that I am young baby, but you know, I’m sure there are not many boomers uh giving crypto donation. So let’s talk a little about the giving trends but, but also just, you know, generally why, look, why bother. We’ve been doing this fine with checks, stocks, wire transfers. Why, why should we bother? Oh, it’s a great question. So, if, if the methods of payment you accept as a charity were driven by the nonprofit trying to solve a payments problem, you wouldn’t really have to adapt at all. Right. The nonprofit gets cash through a check the same way they would from a credit card. But you take credit cards as a nonprofit because eventually there are so many people using them and they’re so much more convenient to the ability to get that donor and convert that donor and have them pay in a way where they’ll actually send you the money. Once credit cards become their thing, you eventually have to just adjust to it. Right. The same reason nonprofits take stocks, you don’t take stocks because it’s easier than a credit card. You take stocks because it’s so much more tax efficient for a US donor. If they’re gonna send this appreciated stock to the charity and it’s a million bucks or they send a million in their bank account, they might be erasing an extra 150 grand in capital gains tax liability because the donor doesn’t pay capital gains tax on the donate stuff and neither doesn’t charity. So the example I use is like, think about credit cards, merged with stocks. Credit cards are used because people move money using credit cards and actually there’s so many people doing that, that if you don’t have that option on your site, a lot of people come there to look for it. You ask for bank details or a check instead and they just drop off. They go, this isn’t the way I like to move money. Um And there is a conversion issue with that and then people take stocks again because if you’re gonna get a big donation, 5 to $15,000 average gift size, plenty of them, a lot higher than that. Donors who get into those types of gift sizes. They’re thinking about the numbers, they’re thinking about the math. And if I can give 100 grand to one charity and save $20,000 more, I’m gonna consider that nonprofit. Um, a lot more often than a charity I can always send the cash to. So there’s a sort of a supply side push. That’s right. You can say the donors, there are donors, the supply side of the charities being on the demand side. There’s a, there’s a, there’s a push among don’t when checks became popular, when stocks became popular, when credit cards became popular. Absolutely. Right. Ok. That’s right. So there’s, there’s tens of millions of people in the US who use Cryptocurrency and there’s about 600 million worldwide. So it’s, it’s at a size and scale in terms of the user count and people participating in these systems that it’s not, you can’t not have it as an option at a certain point. So like there’s more users on Coinbase than there are on fidelity or Charles Schwab at this. Like it’s, it’s at a scale that most people who don’t participate in. It aren’t really aware of. Like Gen Zs are more likely to trade crypto than trade stocks, like more likely. And then millennials, 90% of millennial millionaires are crypto traders. Like it’s if you are a millennial or gen Z, that cares seriously about investing in any capacity, it’s a part of your world. It’s part of your portfolio and it’s part of the way you think about money. So when it comes to giving, it’s the same thing. So there’s that element of just the widespread uptake and then there’s the element of it’s so tax efficient. So when something appreciates again, you don’t pay capital against tax on it. So if I have a million dollars in Bitcoin, that’s gone up a lot. And I have a million dollars sitting in the bank, I can move the million dollars in Bitcoin to the charity if I want to make that kind of a donation. And let’s say the 150,000, 200,000 that I owed in state and federal capital gains tax on the appreciation of that investment that evaporates the charity gets the full million. I give them the full million to get the full million dollar write off. And that $200,000 tax burden disappears. And then I, as the donor can even take the million I had in the bank and buy more Bitcoin or whatever crypto I’m donating and now I have a million dollars of Bitcoins if I gave the cash. But it’s at today’s cost basis. I don’t know any taxes on it yet. So it’s this magical tax liability eraser that people have always dealt with stocks, especially older donors, younger donors never really did it because it’s inconvenient. We need to work with the broker. But with crypto, you can send the transfer as easily as you said it with a credit card with this enormous additional tax benefit. And the more of these younger donors who keep their cash in crypto to interest and then move out of those stable cryptocurrencies into investments like Bitcoin, the more of their money that’s parked there, the more convenient it is for them to send it that way, the more tax efficient it is because crypto has outperformed all the other asset classes for the last 10 years. All of those things compound to the point where if you want younger donors in particular young donors to consider that major gift pathway. So you can kind of future proof that donor base for the great wealth transfer and beyond, they’re becoming this larger and larger swap of what that world looks like. Now, what about the charitable uh federal income tax uh deduction? Is there, is there that for a Bitcoin gift. Is there a charitable deduction? Yep. You get the same deductions if you gave anything else, you the tax liability and it’s really convenient. Ok. So you avoid the capital gains and there is a charitable deduction which would be at your, whatever your marginal tax rate is. Ok. And that’s been locked in by the IRS year after year over and over. It’s not going anywhere. Ok. Just making it, making sure the basics are covered. Ok. OK. What more, what more do you want to say uh about uh value, importance, relevance, anything? II, I didn’t wanna, I didn’t wanna end your, your explanation. I just wanted to make uh I wanted to make sure people understand the basics. No, that was it. I was out of important things to say, I guess. Uh the only other thing I would say is um for nonprofits to understand the uptake. So like the majority of the Forbes top 100 nonprofits in the US already have crypto fundraising programs. So it’s, it’s more common than not the bigger and more established. The nonprofit is, it’s becoming pretty much universal for small and mid size nonprofits. Um It’s less common in the same way that they tend to lag on other technology adoption, but it’s, it’s not like a fringe thing from the charity side either. Right. Billions of dollars have been donated. Um Nonprofits actively present this to donors in particular younger donors and it generates revenue, increased average gift size. Like it’s, it’s pretty well adopted over the last 67 years. All right. How do we reassure folks about the headlines that they see, you know, a Bitcoin dropped from? Yeah, I don’t, I don’t really know what the numbers are. I know, like at the low end it went down to $30,000 but it had been as high as, I don’t remember how much, you know, per per coin. How do we reassure folks who read headlines about crypto, Bitcoin? Well, they’re not synonymous. Bitcoin is a, is a, is a coin, one of many cryptocurrencies, but people read headlines about Bitcoin the floor dropping out. How do we reassure people about that? That’s a great question. So there’s um in short, there are several considerations that matter a lot for folks involved in crypto that don’t matter for nonprofits depending on how you’re using it. So, one of the big misconceptions charities think about with crypto is that they have to hold crypto to accept it. So like one of the first things we built into our tool is it immediately liquidates any balances instantaneously. So it’s just a program that scans you have a crypto exchange account on a heavily regulated crypto exchange platform tied to your institutions. Ein it sits there and as soon as crypto hits any wallet in that account, it says automatically sell for the US dollar going rate value instantaneously. So from a volatility standpoint, as an investor or as a nonprofit who wants to add crypto, let’s say to your endowment. Um and invest in it long term price volatility is a concern for sure if you’re investing and you’re not interested in things that are that volatile. Um Or you worry about the, the risk of losing value on the funds that you’re holding and the idea of holding crypto or investing in it as a, a donor or a nonprofit isn’t for you. But for 99% of nonprofits, they use that auto liquidation feature. Even the nonprofits who hold it for the most part liquidate the crypto that comes in and they’ll invest in more stable cryptocurrencies like a Bitcoin Ethereum. They’ll make sure that if there’s some of these smaller all cryptocurrencies that are extra volatile, they don’t hold those things. So as a nonprofit, you can accept the fact that let’s just say us, for example, that there’s 60 ish million people trading this stuff, they have decided to participate in the system. Despite the volatility, this is how they’d like to invest and potentially give to us when it’s up. We’ll probably get more when it’s down. We’ll probably get a little bit less. But ultimately, that volatility is not something we have to endure because it hits our account and it automatically liquidates. So the price volatility thing is optional for charities, whereas it’s not optional for investors. Ok. Right. You’re making a distinction between accepting it and investing in it. Uh, and there’s also price volatility in the stock market. Absolutely. And that’s why stocks, stocks are quickly liquidated. It’s so, it’s, it’s identical. Nonprofits don’t hold stocks that are, that are donated. They, uh, they liquidate that day usually and, and then they can decide to invest or, or spend, you know, what, whatever and if they’re gonna invest in stock it, it’s, it’s obviously a decision that they make independent of the, the, the stock that was donated. That’s right. And it’s probably for the best because there are a lot of, a lot of our nonprofits, like, around this time, like Bitcoin almost hit a new all time high yesterday. Like, cryptocurrencies has been doing really, really well. It’s up like 100 and 50% over the last year. It’s, it’s like, tripled since the bottom of the last Bear market. Um, a lot of nonprofits. I mean, dozens in the last couple weeks have been, like, turn off the auto conversion and I’m like, let’s have a meeting and let’s talk about it. It’s just bad. It’s just natural. You see a thing go up for 12 months and you’re like, it’s gonna keep going up forever. I feel like an idiot. I’m not a sucker like I know. And it’s like, well, let’s just, let’s say let’s not time the crypto market anymore than we’re gonna try to time the, uh, the New York Stock Exchange or you know, or the S and P, we’re not, we’re not gonna be able to, let’s not time these things. Let’s not get carried away either. All right. So now that not only that, not only accepting it, but let’s keep it, let’s hold it. So, so our general, we cannot give financial advice back. We can’t tell anyone not to do. But like, usually after a conversation it’s very rare that any of our nonprofits ever don’t have auto conversion on. And some people get annoyed about that because we’ve been doing this for seven years. So the nonprofits who haven’t had auto conversion on have actually made uh an extraordinary amount of money. If they actually held it through, they didn’t pan excel at different points. It’s gone up a lot over the last seven years, of course. Um But there’s a lot of volatility. So like we said, ever, it’s just like you could turn it on today or turn it off tomorrow and easily lose money. Like there’s a lot of risk in investing and a lot of no in particular, let’s just say if you don’t have an endowment making, the only asset you’re deciding to hold and invest in Cryptocurrency is I don’t think reasonable. And even if you have an endowment, it should be a very small percentage if you’re even considering it just because of like you’re saying, there’s some volatility there, you mentioned different kinds of coins. Uh Let, let’s do we, we’ve used Bitcoin as an example. You mentioned a couple of others. What do, how, how does all that? And there are many right, there’s, there’s hundreds, hundreds, aren’t there maybe thousands? Thousands? All right, thousands of different coins. How does that play into uh what we accept? Uh do we need to accept certain coins? Only ex explain that the basics there? Yeah. So there are some cryptocurrencies that solved really important problems just from a technological standpoint that made it really easy to write codes called smart contracts that like automate processes and allow people to build these kind of applications that tie into the networks. And then there are some cryptocurrencies that are, it’s like open source code related to some other crypto and you make kind of a copy and paste version of it. Like you hear about these meme coins where it’s just kind of um you’ll see a Cryptocurrency and it’s got like a picture of a dog and there’s like $30 billion invested in it. And that’s sort of like baseball cards or certain types of art where it’s like people are investing in it because they’re trying to catch a wave and there’s like momentum and timing and it’s not really doing anything that’s fundamentally changing anyone’s life. It’s just like people want it because other people want it and those tend to muddy the water in terms of people understanding the value because they’re like, oh all cryptos kind of feel like this. But in short, um there’s probably uh you know, a few 100 that are doing unique technological things and those tend to be the top Cryptocurrency. So even if you get down into the top 2030 5080 these are very high market cap um assets, like more than most other types of investments. Like I think on the stock market with the Bitcoin ETF S for instance, like I think the Bitcoin ETF S have well surpassed silver. Like there’s a lot of interest in some of these technologies. But if you made an ETF O one of these like Doge coins, um you probably wouldn’t necessarily see the same level of interest. Um What a nonprofit needs to understand is similar to what we said about the auto conversion. This doesn’t need to be a consideration of yours because again, you’re not investing in these cryptocurrencies or choosing which ones to invest in. You just wanna make sure that whatever is being sent to you isn’t like a scam or something that like the SEC or some other regulatory agency would consider. Um not OK, or maybe classify as a unregistered security. And then you want to make sure that there’s enough liquidity on the order books to accept this and not get caught, hold in the bag you don’t want because we’ve heard these horror stories of very small cap crypto gets donated to charity. It’s $100 million type donation and then they try to move it to an exchange and sell it and they lose 80% of the value because again, the volatility. So that is solved for by using an exchange on the back end instead of just a wallet. So these exchange accounts that we use through Gemini, it’s just like Coinbase, it’s like fidelity. It’s like e trade. It’s a uh exchange with a ton of order book liquidity. Um millions of users people trading into and out of assets and the uh assets that get listed on that exchange. These cryptocurrencies are ones that, that exchange and their legal team in uh relationship to all of these regulators that they interface with have decided are OK to list and have enough interest in market activity um where they can easily liquidate, um buy and sell orders. So when you’re taking crypto through the giving block, it’s only the assets that GM and I the most regulated Cryptocurrency exchange in the US has listed. And then if a donor came to you trying to send you something else, we have something called private donor services where we have a, a lawyer on our team and we can talk to the exchange and other partners to decide like is this a legitimate asset to accept from that donor? But those cases are very rare. So you should almost never. And for pretty much every nonprofit work with the answer is never um be in a situation where you’re deciding, should I accept a particular crypto or not? That should be handled by this exchange with a giant legal team and strong relationships with all the regulators. It’s time for Tony’s Steak Two. Thank you, Kate. We will have a new president. My thinking is around our national nonprofit community. Um And I feel that there’s potential for some of our work to be uh defunded or threatened or, or just minimized. And if we see any of that, we all, all of us have to speak out against it. We can’t only support our, our lane, our mission. We all need to stand together as a nonprofit community. So, like I’m thinking, there’s the potential for nonprofits that do work for uh immigrants rights. LGBT Q plus rights people who fight climate change, those who product uh protect uh reproductive rights and women’s health. Those of us who are advancing public education, fight for uh uh fighting for economic justice and equality and equity, protecting vulnerable populations. Those who work for safer gun laws, advancing social justice and the rule of law. Those of us who champion first amendment rights of speech, assembly and religion, the folks who promote a free press, those who assure ethics in government. Those are the ones I have so far that you may very well think of others. It might be your work or the work of other nonprofits. But the point is that we need to stand up for the work of each of our nation’s nonprofits, not just as I said, not just our own lane. Um, and I’m very willing to say, you know, if these things don’t happen, you know, if, if agencies, uh, aren’t threatened, if, if there, if there isn’t that kind of trouble then, uh, you can call me, uh, an alarmist. I’ll, I’ll accept it six months a year from now. If it’s not happening, Tony, you’re an alarmist. But I do think it’s more likely now than it was before the election. Um, and some of the things I’m thinking of potentially, um, maybe a tax on the, uh charitable deduction, maybe carving out some nonprofits that are no longer considered 501 C three and, and eligible for the federal charitable income tax deduction. That would be enormous that some people, some nonprofits donors can’t get a deduction anymore for giving. Um, it could be rhetoric, you know, it could just be talk whether it’s official or it’s just some random asshole or so it could be some official asshole. Uh, you know, or it could be some random official. You know, if, if we’re talking, if we’re hearing, talking down missions or even specific agencies, we need to all call that out it. We, we, we have to stand together. Um, maybe, maybe the federal government starts unfairly favoring some nonprofits over others in, in some other way, you know, beyond the charitable deduction or rhetoric. We have to all stand up for each other, please. Because if we’re divided, then our community is weakened. We all need to stand for each other. And I do think the potential is there because the country did vote for big change and we’re gonna see it. I also want to salute my fellow veterans, Monday where the show is being published on Monday the 11th Veteran’s Day. I admire your service. You made enormous sacrifices to serve the country in any of our military branches. So I admire that service. I salute you on Veterans Day and those are the issues. Those are the things for Tony’s take two, Kate. A lot of things might change. But what will never change is the love for our veterans. Thank you guys. That is very well said, Kate, you’re right. We can never waiver our support for our veterans and, and our admiration for their service. Well said, well, we’ve got bookoo but loads more time. Here’s the rest of accepting Cryptocurrency gifts with Pat Duffy contrast in exchange which you just explained very well with wallet wallets, which you’ve, you’ve mentioned a couple of times. Uh, what, what, what’s the difference here? Well, well, first, what is a wallet? What is a wallet? And then how does it differ from an exchange? Yeah, this is why nonprofits should be set up with some even if it’s not us. But like a solution that has an exchange account and everything else because donors will often tell nonprofits just pop open a wallet. So for each of these cryptocurrencies, you can participate in them and move value back and forth by having what’s called a wallet. So, like we talked about with Bitcoin, there’s an end point where the Bitcoin we’re sending needs to go and there’s an end point where the Bitcoin was originally sitting. So those are referred to as wallets. So exchanges when you’re holding, um, Bitcoin on exchange, for instance, they have the Bitcoin wallets and they’re holding on to the keys to those wallets. Um You’re kind of giving over the security component to them similar to when you’re buying and selling stocks on a lot of these exchanges. You don’t actually have like a paper stock sitting in a safe somewhere. Um This would be the equivalent of that paper stock example, but digital. So you can actually have Bitcoin sitting in a wallet that you have and it’s your own wallet that you can open up, not a wallet held by the exchange and you can take that Bitcoin keep it in a wallet. Um, that only you have like a private code phrase to get into. So that was the original idea behind the technology. This, when you hear it decentralized and disintermediating, like part of what’s really cool about something like Bitcoin or theorem is you can, if it was just you and I, and we were working on some deal, I was building you a fence and I wanted to send you money. I could send you that full amount of value using something like Bitcoin for my wallet years without ever needing to use an exchange or a lawyer or someone else as a middleman. And the code is written to allow for that. And, and if II, I remember this about wallets too. If, if you lose your, if you lose the key to your wallet, that’s it. You’ve lost, it’s like a 16 digit code or something like that or maybe it’s even longer. I don’t know. Maybe, but if you lose the key, you’ve lost what, everything that’s in your wallet, you can’t prove, you can no longer prove that, that you owned what, what was in, what is in your wallet that you can no longer access. Yeah. And that’s the trade off. There’s a lot of misinformation on this or I wouldn’t even say misinformation. But misunderstandings like, um, the only way that can happen to you is if you lose the information, right. So on, there’s nothing, there’s no security issue with the technology when you hear, like this person lost $100 million of Bitcoin. It’s like, well, it’s like losing your email password but you can’t get another, like, be careful with it is what a lot of people say. Like, if you’re gonna do that, like, then if you have $100 million and you lose the information you wrote down about it, like it’s kind of on you is done. And then the, there’s an inverse to that too, which is sometimes exchanges that you’re trusting with that money. Um, they get hacked and now people think about that as a Cryptocurrency hack. But it’s actually the opposite. What the crypto people will tell you is like, well, if you had your Bitcoin sitting in a wallet and you had the private keys to no one could have ever taken it. So in both scenarios, people think about it as a, uh, Cryptocurrency and security issue, but it’s actually the opposite. There’s a 0% chance you will ever lose your money if you have it in a wallet in your own private keys unless you lose the password. Now, if you’re, and like my parents and other folks, like they will lose that password. I know it just put it on the exchange because the odds of an exchange being hacked for crypto is still less than even traditional banks and find it. Like, it’s, they’re very regulated, they’re very secure. It’s the same as having money in a bank. And a lot of the like cash that you have there is FDIC insured as well, just like you would in a bank. So like there’s a lot of reasons to use an exchange for institutions like a nonprofit. You should definitely be using exchange, not a wallet because if you put in the wrong code and you send it somewhere. It’s not supposed to go, you can’t get it back and if you lose the code that you wrote down to get into that wallet, you can’t get it back. So if you’re very careful and pretty libertarian in nature, it’s an amazing technology for actually having stuff, but being able to move it, um, online, it’s like having gold in the safety, you can actually use to buy goods. Um, but if you’re not that specific person just use an exchange. It’s, it’s like having a bank account. OK. OK. Let’s move forward then to w what we, what we uh like we wanna bring this to our board or our, you know, we’re not, we’re not the CEO we’re gonna bring it to our vice president. Help folks. Um uh We’ve done a lot, we, we’ve, we’ve done a lot of that already. I was gonna say help folks make the argument. But what, what would be steps that we would take? I mean, II I think is there, I think we’ve helped folks understand what it is. Why it’s valuable to accept. Uh Are, are, are you ready to move to? How would we, how would we start to implement a AAA crypto acceptance platform? Yeah, absolutely. So if I were a non bro, let’s say I’m, I’m talking to the board, I’ll just like hit the key points here both in terms of the why and the implementation. I would say there’s trillions of dollars invested in it. There are Bitcoin theory, ETF s. Now on the actual stock market, every hedge fund has it or is moving money into it. Every millennial or gen Z has some invest this way if we want to grow our major gift program, which generally speaking, probably has an average donor age of like mid sixties um and not slowly have that eaten away if we want to win out the Great Wall Transfer. Um We want to get a a younger, more robust uh donor base that actually has major giving potential. Like we wanna grow this nonprofit and kind of not get left behind by a very serious financial trend. Like this is a donation method. We need to accept kind of point blank period like it just needs to be an option for our donors. Um Now, in terms of how we implement it, there’s a couple of really important things we need to do. One. We need to make sure that it’s easily discoverable on our website. Um This mistake has been made with stocks, with donor advice funds, sometimes even with bank transfers where it’s really hard to find alternative giving options. Um which is why platforms like ours, in addition to this donation form that we give to nonprofits, um We aggregate all of our charities on the giving block.com with a search bar where donors go search for charities that take crypto and give and we get tens of millions of dollars donated through that channel because donors look on the nonprofit site, they don’t see it and then they just go to Google, Google take this donation. It’s too, there’s too many tax implications for me to not give it directly. We don’t want to be that charity because like every day so it goes to the giving block looking for some heart related charity, they don’t see it. So they give this giant crypto donation to American Heart Association instead, like our donors need to know we take this. So I would take seriously like our ways to give menu and then like the donate button on our site where it takes you to this giving interface. Like I wanna make sure that I’ve got a very clear other ways to give type options, crypto stop donor avi funds a bank transfer. Like let’s get that infrastructure right? So when donors are on our site looking for a way to give, they’ll find this if they’re looking for it. Um Then two, I would say in terms of how we integrate it on our site, I would remind the board and it’s a copy and paste donation form, just like anything else. There’s nothing crypto technological involved here. All of that is built into the code on the back end, we are just pasting a giving form on our site where donors select which crypto they wanna give, enter their details and then send uh money. What happens for us is that crypto hits an account, it cashes out, it swept to a bank account. We get cash as if they use the credit card or anything else. But the donor gets the crypto giving journey they’re looking for. So to explain that we are accommodating the best in class crypto donor journey. They can send money from any of the major exchanges or wallets, etcetera. It’s fully accommodating. And for us, we’re just getting cash. This price volatility concerns which cryptos we take, how do we hold it? When do we hold it? All of that is off the table. These things have been solved for. Um And then the real conversation from there is like, how do we fundraise it? And that final step is one that a lot of nonprofits missed our 1st 30 clients that we signed for the giving block were charities that already took crypto that we signed over to our product instead. Not even because our product was so much better. It had a lot of features that were good. Um But because we knew how to fundraise it and we helped them do some basic stuff like talk about the fact that they take it on social and add in other ways to give button in their capital campaign emails. We added QR codes to the direct mailers people were sending out and people started ho their phone over a piece of paper and sending $50,000 in Bitcoin because so it’s available for them. Um, those sorts of considerations often get missed and then you could still do all of those other things. Right. And end up being one of these great nonprofits with a donate Bitcoin button that just sits somewhere collecting dust because you never really told your donors about it. Um That’s the final consideration. Do you have any more fundraising tips? Oh, yeah, I mean, sure. All right. Well, uh infinite. Uh That’s a lot. But uh we could, we could do with AAA very small, finite number like two, just another couple more fundraising tips because it’s very analogous to gifts we’ve been taking for, for decades and generations. I mean, you, you mentioned, you know, talking about it on social, uh adding a button making it clear on your ways to give, drop down menu. Yeah. So to reassure folks that this is not so something esoteric and uh, I don’t know, forbidden or, you know, whatever nuanced share, share a couple more simple, you know, fundraising methods. It’s, it’s probably an overstatement anyway. I’ve probably got, I’ve probably got three good ones and then a bunch of share a few more. But yeah, so to your point, I feel like this is, it’s, it is fundraising advice. It’s, it’s like a bit more um high level but like just pretend it stocks is like a really important thing for every fundraiser to think about for at the organization. They just pretend it stocks. What would you do. And unfortunately, for a lot of nonprofits, when you make that list of what you would do for stock, what you realize is everything you’re writing down you’re not doing for stocks. You know, like, well, I’d make it really easy to find on my website when I am having a major gift meeting. I would of course, bring it up as an option with the donors because maybe they don’t think of their stocks as a donation method. They think of it as an investment. And maybe this donor who gives us 10-K a year is like, well, the S and P is up 25%. Like I would, can I fulfill my $100,000.10 year pledge right now because I have a huge tax incentive to do it at this. It’s like I would have it featured there. I would make it really easy. Again, I put a QR code that opens up this giving page slash form so younger people could send this stuff from their phones. I would make sure that if I’m sending a capital campaign email that like this is such an important giving option with a way higher average gift size, like let’s make sure it’s easy to find. So think about it like a stocks is what I would say first and foremost. And then the second piece I would say is blended with stocks and with donor advised funds, right? And with these other tax efficient giving options, if you take real estate, whatever that is, blend it all together. Because what that solves for is one of the biggest sticking points for nonprofits donor segmentation and strategy. They’re like, who is a crypto donor? How do I know when to ask for crypto versus something else? How do I find a crypto donor in my database? Like, how do I know for sure that I should be asked for crypto and not these other things. It’s really hard to figure that out and it takes time and depending on the quality of your data and Wealth engine tools, like not every charity has availability um or access to those things. If you just take crypto and you mix it in with stock and that whatever other things you take. Now, suddenly every email you send makes sense. It could be going to every donor you have at every agent just goes, hey, we take tax efficient options like stock d crypto, et cetera, right? It’s, it’s all directly analogous to forms of giving that you just named. I mean, how do you know if somebody has a donor advice fund? You don’t? So you could just mention in your, in your, in your over your lunch that, you know, you know, donor advice funds are, are, are a great way to give. Stocks are a great way to give. We accept Cryptocurrency, you know, and there’s something resonates with somebody then they’ll say, oh, crypto, crypto, oh, I have a donor advice fund. So, you know, you don’t need to know, you know, just like you don’t need to know someone’s wealth necessarily to ask for a gift. You can look at their giving history and you can just promote, promote it in the same breath that you’re promoting stocks and stocks and donor advised funds. And we accept, we accept crypto as well. 100%. No, you nailed it and it, it’s helpful to know. It’s nice to know. And even then it’s a lot less complicated. People think leave cryptos up a lot in a particular year. And you have these donors who gave crypto the last year, like my version of stewardship is like, we just email donors and we’re like, hey, cryptos up a lot like you feeling generous and if crypto is down a lot, sometimes we’re like, hey, we know crypto is down a lot. Like we’re not gonna ask you for money right now because it’s the way you like to give. But maybe you could introduce us to some friends or run a fundraising for us, maybe some like, like maybe there’s other kind of crypto things we could be doing. Like it’s helpful as an indicator, but it’s to your point, it’s not necessary you can just open up the options. And I guess the last thing I’ll say is that if you’re trying to get them to come out of the woodwork. A match is so powerful for all these giving options. I, until we started this company, like it’s, it was seven years ago and still throughout this period, I’ve never found a nonprofit who independent of us did a crypto specific match, a stock specific match. A da A specific match. And das was always the one that blew my mind the most. I’m like, there’s $260 billion sitting in accounts earmarked for charity. It’s the only money these donors have that they can’t spend anywhere else. It’s already sitting in, it can only ever go to a charity and what they’ll probably do, especially if they’re in their thirties or forties, they’ll let it sit there for decades and they’ll add it to an estate plan eventually. Like there’s no urgency they got the taxes out of when they parked it there. So how do you get the money out? Like if a donor gave me 25 grand tomorrow, I go. Can I use this as a match? They always say yes, you’re like, yeah, but why not help you fund raise? And I would just put an email out and be like if you have a DA account will match the next 25 grand in given. And I wanna know who in my donor base, who has the debt, how much will they send? And once I get 1000 bucks for someone who has one of those like now when I’m steering that donor, like how much money do they have in that account? Can we block it in as a commitment to us? Like, you wouldn’t even have that conversation without prompting it? So, in short matching the specific giving options occasionally, especially with the targeted email to particular high value donors, let’s say really nice way to get people coming out of the woodwork in addition to just sprinkling it in as a passive option. Let’s talk a little about something you you mentioned in passing like to flush it out a bit. Uh mining energy consumption. Uh The popular press uh explains that uh these, these mining operations can be very energy intensive. Let’s uh can you flush that out? I don’t know if you can reassure folks, but at least explain what it is. We’re explain what it is that I’m talking about. I’m explain, explain, explain to the listeners what I’m talking about because I don’t, I don’t fully understand it, but I know there’s a lot of energy behind all these calculations and proofs and they have uh they have an energy, they have an impact on our energy infrastructure. No, 100%. So there’s like there’s warehouses with these computers, like thousands of them sometimes and they’re like running these computers that are trying to solve um these proofs to authorize transactions um for a network like Bitcoin in particular, like it requires the most they use crypt or cryptographic proof of work is what it’s called. And there’s a lot of value in it that other types of um networks don’t have in terms of like the utmost security and traceability and everything. Like it’s, it does a lot of really powerful things, but it uses more energy than it should. However, it’s exponentially less than is reported. Um because a weird thing happened, like the, the media more or less than it came from a Columbia research thing that was like quickly debunked, but no one seemed to care. Um They confuse what’s called a block with a transaction. So we talked about it earlier. You could have one transaction like one Bitcoin transaction that goes out to the network. And if it was the only one, that’s all that would be in one of those blocks on a Blockchain. So once uh once the system gets a block, then the computers all fight to try to figure it out as fast as possible and it cracks the code. But when there’s a lot of transactions happening in each of these blocks, there’s usually between like 1000 and 2500, they took a number like the amount of dollars per Bitcoin transaction. And I think they said it’s like 100 and 5 to 100 and $35 worth of energy per transaction. One, if that were the case, no one would do it. Obviously, just everyone would be losing a ton of money all. Like it just mathematically, people should have seen that number. But like, well, that’s impossible. Obviously, people wouldn’t spend more than what they’re sending hundreds of thousands of times a day. Like, it’s just not a thing. Um But you, when, once you divide it down, it’s like a few sets of transaction for the most energy intensive. So like Bitcoin and a zillion zeros and ultimately a decimal like fractions of a cent for every other Cryptocurrency that uses proof of work with these more efficient systems. So even at that scale, it’s a ton of energy for something like Bitcoin and people are always trying to find ways to make it more efficient. Um but it’s exponentially less than what’s reported. And I think it’s inarguable that Bitcoin is still more efficient than the traditional financial system. Like no one runs numbers saying like, well, if we want to use banks, like we said, we have infinite skyscrapers and commuters and like lawyer, like there’s just an infinite amount of waste and energy and like little sheets of plastic getting dumped into landfills to like make traditional finance work. Like the Bitcoin ecosystem is not nearly as significant as I feel like people reported on. Um However, it’s definitely the least energy efficient of the cryptocurrencies and it’s like, it’s a good thing that people are like, let’s make it a lot more efficient because it’s using more energy than it should over time. I’m just kind of like you said about the postal service. I’m betting on Cryptocurrency even something like Bitcoin over the next five years in particular to become exponentially more efficient. In the same way, I would bet on emails over time being a less energy intensive way to move mail than like the post office. Like, just having code versus infinite, like actual physical infrastructure and commuting. Like, it just, it’s a better bet from an ecological standpoint even though it started off, I think, pretty inefficient. OK. And, and that’s where a lot of the press came from. All right. Plus this, plus this misunderstanding that you said was debunked. But you know, the that rarely sees, sees a lot. It gets anywhere near the number of eyes as the original reporting does. OK? All right. Um What, what proportion of all the crypto transactions is Bitcoin? Is it, is it an enormous proportion? Is it, is it, is it as outsized as it seems uh to, to AAA non crypto investor or, or do you know what? It’s a great question. I don’t know if there are more versus all of the other cryptocurrencies out of all the transactions as the denominator. How many are, are Bitcoin in the numerator? I’d have to look usually not a lot. So what’s interesting is a lot of people because um Bitcoin requires more energy like this is what happens, right? It requires more energy to send a Bitcoin transaction. It costs more to the users. Um They tend to move their funds using different networks. Um So even people have like Ethereum, which is more efficient than um Bitcoin. It gets kind of technologically. It’s, it’s, it’s not extraordinarily complicated. But what happens is like, you can take a Cryptocurrency like Ethereum and you can what’s called rapid. So you can have a asset that’s sitting on a different chain. So like, let’s call it solana totally different Cryptocurrency. Um You can have a asset sitting on the Salana chain that’s just pegged to the value of Ethereum. But you can move it across their network at which point you can then move it back on to like a the, you cash out the salon and you exchange it for a theorem. So people do that kind of stuff all the time, um where they’ll move Ethereum or they’ll move Bitcoin or other assets, but they’re moving it across other chains that use less energy because it saves everybody money. So I’d have to see the actual number. I think it’s a Bitcoin is, I think more than half the total crypto market cap. But I’d be shocked if it was more than like 10% of the overall network activity. Like I think a lot of people tend to move value on some of these newer cryptos that, that got a bit more efficient. But in terms of the total value, it, it’s, you’re saying a little more than half yeah, a lot of people park it, they treat it like a lot of people call it digital gold. Um It’s the least um the least volatile versus some of these other cryptos that just have smaller user bases and more kind of uh speculation on it. Um So a lot of people will kind of invest in other cryptocurrencies and they rotate back into Bitcoin in the same way. Some people rotate back into like cash or gold uh store value type thing. It’s valuable. You make all these analogies to the, the traditional, you know, the longest established um stores of value methods of exchange. No, because I think it’s comforting for folks. You know, it’s, it’s just like, you know, you promote stock gifts. You, you accepted, you decided to accept credit cards 40 years ago, et cetera, right? You know, there’s, there’s value in these analogies that are based on known understood uh exchanges of value. Oh, definitely. I mean, I wouldn’t understand. I have a political science degree. And the other guy that I found the company with was the crypto guy. Like he got me into it and like it took a lot of these types of analogies for me because I was like, it’s sounds like vaporware, it’s backed by nothing. It’s just like code based money. Like I don’t. And then he was like, no, it’s the double spend problem. It’s like, wait, this is the only kind of money you can’t counterfeit. He was like, yeah, I’m like, that’s very valuable. That’s interesting. And you can’t make more of it. Yeah. So it’s like, cool. But you could actually move it like you can move it like, instantly anywhere, like, yeah, and then you can write code that moves it around and it’s all, like I say, yeah, I’m like, this is ok, I get it. This is kind of cool. This does a lot of things that nothing else does. He’s like, yeah, that’s why people are buying it. They’re not just dumb. I was like, OK, it makes more sense. I, I, one quick thing on this, I listened to a podcast before starting the company maybe six months before where I’ve gotten into trading crypto at all. And I went on a trip with friends and which, you know, we drank beers and we were at the beach and I talked about 10 people out of ever buying crypto because I listened to this podcast and I was like, backed by nothing. It’s paper and I told everybody about it. Just traditional financial guys I was listening to and then eventually got into it and invested and like, never circled back with some of those people. And then they saw that we had started the company and the stuff we were doing and I tried to like, what the hell dude, why didn’t you tell me to buy this? It’s like quadrupled. And I was like, I was being gen, I wasn’t trying to trick you. I just didn’t get it yet. Not only why didn’t you tell us to buy it? Why did you tell us not to buy it? I was adamant before six months before you co-founded a company based on the, the exact, the exact store of value that you told people to avoid. All right, I needed to do some research. You’re a hypocrite. You’re a hypocrite. All right. All right. Leave us, leave us with some closing thoughts. Pat or, or maybe there’s something we haven’t talked about that. You want folks to know, I’ll throw that out first before closing thoughts. Anything, anything I didn’t ask you, maybe that you want, you want to talk about? Uh I touched on it lightly but it’s a timing thing. So, uh Bitcoin almost hit a new all time high yesterday, like the market’s done really well this year. So in a year where crypto is down, you have significantly less people who have appreciated assets uh to donate for that tax incentive. Like this year is uniquely good for that. Like we’ve had a huge recovery and are looking at new all time highs. Um And then the other piece is the end of year giving for crypto similar to stocks, um is even more extraordinary than um the end of your search we see for things like cash because they’re trying to get up against that end of your tax deadline. So a lot of these transfers happen in November and December. So the main thing is like, if you’re a nonprofit who isn’t taking crypto now is definitely the time to consider it seriously. Um You don’t wanna be like, we’ll look at this in February of next year just from a timing standpoint. Like it’s a really, if you’re at all thinking about it now is the time to like have a conversation and do a bit of research. Uh Just cause like for us, generally speaking, in that end of year window, it’s like 60% of our donation volume um in just a couple of months versus the rest of the year. So it’s a significant um fundraising opportunity. Ok. That’s a good place to wrap, I think because we’ve talked a lot about why do it, what, what the value is? Thank you. All right. This is the, this is the time, it’s the fourth quarter and values are very high. Pat Duffy co-founder of the Giving block at the giving block.com. You’ll find Pat on linkedin. Pat. Thanks for sharing your, your wisdom, your uh your expertise on this and uh your hopefulness. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is great pleasure next week, scaling altruism with Donald Summers. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms, blocking your supporters, generosity. Donor box fast flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor. Box.org. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation. Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.