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Hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. I’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I’d be stricken with calla boma lo bill, i if i heard that you missed today’s show, get the most from your board. Professor eugene fram returns to discuss his latest book going for impact the non-profit director’s essential guide book we’ve got the critical things your board needs to know and pitfalls to avoid. What’s your boards most important job how do you use your board members? Time, wisely and a lot more on tony’s, take two non-profit radio on youtube, responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled, you’ll raise more money pursuant dot com, and by we be spelling super cool spelling bee fundraisers. We be spelling dot com my pleasure to welcome back dr eugene fram he’s, professor emeritus at saunders college of business at the rochester institute of technology. He’s served on twelve non-profit boards and consulted with dozens of others. Jeez, first gene’s first book policy versus paper clips brought him to non-profit radio in twenty thirteen he blog’s at non-profit management, d r fram dot com and there’s hyphens in between those so non hyphen profit hyphen management hyphen d r hyphen fram, dot com and he’s at eugene fram that’s what she’s your twitter jean welcome back. Well, nice to talk to you again. Pleasure to have you back with your with your new book going for impact. What what did you feel? It was necessary with this book versus the policy versus ah paperclips book. Well, i’ve had a lot of experience between then and now, and i wanted to talk about that experience, especially in the movement towards impact, as you well aware, that funders air looking for impact. Ah, or governmental organizations, they’re looking for impact and a lot of non-profits really don’t i understand that, especially non-profit board members, they think if you meet objectives and on develop outcomes, that impact but it’s really not, as you well know, right impact reporting. I’ve heard rumors to that effect. That’s. Okay, that it’s critical, uh, the the, uh, the classic case on that is the newark schools that you’re probably familiar with. So it’s not too far from you in new york city. Uh, is that, uh ah. Sucker burghdoff gave one hundred million dollars. Forty and five years later they had reached their their objectives. But there was no impact on students. Okay, so that’s, the classic lesson that there is a difference between out comes and impacts. Yes. Okay, you’re echoing what a ah, another two time guest has been on well saying it sounds like he’s two timing the show not thirty two times a show, but another guest has been on twice. Dr robert penna makes the distinction between outcomes and impact. Yeah, and more people are. But if you look at the total of non-profits that i meet, some of them will argue that this is only a fad. I had that argue with a a fellow colleague, boardmember uh, just about a year, six months ago on that she was claiming this is just another fad. Let’s forget about it. But actually, this has been, um, around for eight or nine years. At that time, the really thoughtful people in in the non-profit area were saying to me, forget about outcomes. It’s impacts that air that are very important. And where it’s coming really into the four right now i remember in nineteen ninety four or nineteen ninety five. I had a friend who who said that the internet was just a fad hey wouldn’t get an email address felt that that was unnecessary wouldn’t get a website for his company. I don’t know. I don’t know if he’s coming to the i know if he’s coming to the modern age, we don’t talk anymore. I know. Yes, i cut him off. They’re not kill those people around. And unfortunately there on non-profit board. Yeah, ok. Well, yes, i think it’s if it’s any kind of a fad. It’s a critical fad, but i don’t believe that it is. Yes, lots of funders, including individual donors, won’t want to see impact, impact investing. We’re talking about donors as investors. Well, they want to see the impact of their investment. Okay, all right, i i hope listeners, i mean, i need to pay attention to that indeed. Borden metoo okay, so you didn’t feel well. That was really not the emphasis of policy versus paper clips. That was mohr making sure. I mean, i’m summarizing an entire book and we listened to go back and check is you were on to talk about it in twenty. I believe it was november twenty thirteen, but i know it was twenty thirteen. You could research, uh, jeanne franz name at tony martignetti dot com and you’ll find it. So i’m summarizing. So forgive me for trying encapsulate a whole book into a sentence. But it was basically you don’t want your board micromanaging and dealing with details that are not appropriate for them. But rather they should be dealing. It hyre more strategic levels. Yes. That’s. Exactly it. Thank you. You remember? Well, cool for dr. Okay. Professor? Yes. Professor from dahna in rochester institute. Technology. That’s. Pretty good. And it’s. Pretty good that i went to that schlocky carnegie mellon university. So that’s. Another it’s in the same category. I don’t know. I think in a and rochester maybe, maybe, maybe. Ah, well, i guess. Why would you say that? Tonight’s debate that one, okay? Know what would be a seat so that we could be going the other way? Okay. All right. So now what i like about your ah, you’re going for impact. You have you have takeaways at the end of every chapter. I appreciate a little more than a conclusion. It’s a. You know, i like to take aways like not tonight, not that i only read two takeaways. I don’t not that people should buy the book and only metoo takeaways. You’re going to miss you a ton, but i like, you know, it’s a nice touch. I appreciate that, and also short chapters, you know, you’re in, you’re out like two, three pages. I mean summer longer chapters, certainly, but the most are, like two, three pages or so four pages, you know, in a topic and onto the next, because this is for board members, they’re volunteers. They don’t have time for treatises, that’s, right, exactly. All right, it’s. Only one hundred four pages total reading, but it also has a, uh, on index at the back with one hundred fifty different items on it. And if you really need a specific topic, all you need to do is to go to the index and you’ll find out where it’s mentioned throughout the book. Okay, okay. Um, a little more than one o four, though you cut yourself off. You got these? Yeah. You kept making your cut yourself short, it’s actually, like one hundred eleven and ah, one quarter i would say thank you. I’m glad. Because last seven. Glad your fact checking. Yeah, we’re all about and what some people did last night on the phone. All right? Yes. Last night was the last debate we’re pre recording. Yeah, i know. You know, those last seven and a quarter page is air important don’t don’t all right, um okay. So we’re going to talk about some of the things that were, you know, we only can hit highlights because i want you to listen to shit by the book for going to say, uh, we’re going to talk about you got six essentials that board members need to know we’re going to talk about that, of course, uh, we got some pitfalls to avoid way got the most important job that you’re bored has on, then using your board members time wisely and and utilizing an advisory board. So those that’s what we’re going to cover, i’ll tell you what, let’s, go out a little early for our break. Now, i’ve just tease the whole show, and when we come back, you and i have the whole hour together remaining talk about that and i know you’ve got some stories to tell. So jeanne, i know you’ll stay with us every else doing that i’ll be here, i know everyone else do the same. You’re tuned to non-profit radio tony martignetti also hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a quick ten minute burst of fund-raising insights published once a month. Tony’s guests are expert in crowdfunding, mobile giving event fund-raising direct mail and donor cultivation. Really all the fund-raising issues that make you wonder am i doing this right? Is there a better way there is? Find the fund-raising fundamentals archive it. Tony martignetti dot com that’s marketmesuite n e t t i remember there’s, a g before the end, thousands of listeners have subscribed on itunes. You can also learn maura, the chronicle website philanthropy dot com fund-raising fundamentals the better way. Welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Okay, dr fram. Let’s. Uh, hi. Yes. Okay. Let’s, get, uh, let’s. Get into this. We got we got six essentials. And, er, the first one is be aware of rose colored glasses what’s your what’s, your concern there? Well, there are a number of different concerns there. One i find that quite often, uh, that, uh, non-profit boards will tolerate a mind this size store type of ceo, uh, because they’re comfortable with the media. Ocracy in other words, they want to be good, but not great. And you hear that expressed every once in a while that says, well, when something goes wrong, well, you really can’t expect that of a non-profits yeah, this is not the same as for-profit mediocrity mediocrity, andi. And if you take a look at it from the point of view of some board members and remember, i only speak as a boardmember i’ve never been a needy, never been in the management of a and non-profit giving you the board members point of view. So when you do that here, you’re really, uh, moving towards the bottom, all right instead. Of the top. And so you gotta expect excellence from your ceo and the management staff as much as they can do within the finances that they have or to develop creative ideas. Uh, that will take the organization to the to the future. Okay, now, but you’re also speaking as a as a professor of business former retired professor of business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you bring in that room that respect you see and like in policy versus paper clips, i only seat major differences between the non-profit on the prophet and that is the non-profit has, uh, mission, vision and values as as their objective. The for-profit obviously has to have is the profit motive s o that is the major differences i see and and everything else to me is very much the same. Okay, excellent. All right, so so you’re you’re your your experience as a a business professor. Converts, i mean, and and i’ve also had, uh, for-profit board experiences too. Okay? Yes. Not quite as many, though you aren’t twelve non-profit points in only four or five of them, for they range from ah, national corporation listed corporations. Tio start up. Okay. You credentials are unquestioned. Don’t worry. Okay, you’re you’re on non-profit radio your bona fide. Okay, good. I want to make sure my non-profit bonified are clear. Yeah. No, no, you’re, you’re good. Okay, um, let’s talk about the next one. You have, um, being wary of the silent boardroom, or when i call it, i that’s what you call it? I’m calling it that god. Yeah. I’m concerned about deference to directors. Yeah. That’s mine. I’m adding that what? What? What’s the problem here. Too much deafness, what’s what’s the problem? Well, this all started a couple years ago when i was doing some consulting work and a young boardmember said to me, hey, you said, you know, i wished we had mohr uh what he said, conflict of discussion, he didn’t need to say me, i mean, to say in the extreme but he said more discussion in in the board room of the issues because what he was seeing in that particular situation is that the, uh, the executive committee er would make a recommendation from people’s would ask, um, passive questions. And then they would pass the emotion on de so he didn’t see any, uh, any riel discussion going on there or real probing of the issues? S so you know, when he said that i developed this idea of the silent board board room and this is very typical, and i ask your listeners if you’re a non-profit director when’s the last time you saw a person say, i’m going to give a no vote to that ah proposition, because i don’t want to be liable either personally or professionally for what the majority has saved in here on dh make sure you put my no vote in the in the in the minutes, okay? I had to do it about a year or so ago, and i stopped the whole the whole process with that statement, but typically, if the president wanted a ceo wants it, or the board chair wants that people exceed to that very, very easily, yeah, alright, too much difference given right? Not not robust, the conversation not really duitz not real due diligence and, of course, your point about liability that directors are potentially liable for them, the deeds and misdeeds of the failing to upper failing to act and misdeeds of the of the organization there, there, fiduciaries they have a legal. They have legal duties. Uh, yeah. Now ah, this all comes, then becomes part of a culture. You know, the typical even business person will say, well, i really don’t want to go against the board chair or i don’t want to go. I don’t want to go against the ceo on this on duh on and it just becomes a part of, for instance, the university trusty came to me once. And he said, we were asked to comment on a particular program which happened to be in the business area. And you can, uh he knew that i had some expertise in that area. And he said, i when i listen to the, uh, to the people there, uh, they were all saying, yeah, let’s go with it, he says, but deep down in my heart, i felt that this was actually reducing the quality of the program. And he said, but early in the hand, i didn’t want to be negative, so i went along with it. So she’s kind of doing a confessional to may, right? But that’s, what you will often find in these situations why should i cause conflict? Why? Should i be the outstanding a negative person in the area. So forth in the situation i said in the committee meeting, i says, if you pursue this and my ass and i gave my reasons for it, i’m going teo a vote no on it. Okay? And then i never heard another thing about it after that, right? But you you have to make the vote that that you’re you believe is right that your conscience guides you two. You have my conscience there, right? Right? Right. Because i felt instead of putting the money and for what they were planning to do with it was a legitimate type of thing. I’ve felt that it had been a it should have gone into programs. Now you can overdo that, okay? And really cut out the over set, uh, down the overhead. But on the other hand, sometimes that overhead is needed, the payment is needed. I want to move to the next one. But before i do, i just want to point out you mentioned deference to the board chair. The ceo, um another. Another together. Pardon me, nto and each other. And i wanted to mention also something you point out the book is about difference, teo major donors who may be on your board that’s always right, that that could be a real problem. That’s a tricky one putting putting big donors on your board. You know, nobody wants to upset the apple cart risk-alternatives bing risk the payment by the pledge payments that have been promised, etcetera, um, you have to you have to tread carefully. Alright. Yeah, very, very carefully, andi. And you might have to compromise your values in some instances, but there’s only so far. You you should go because you still have the mission that needs to be achieved on this let’s. Move her in kapin a typical question teo typical type of donation is people will may offer you property, but the property has value, but they may pace restrictions on it, and you can’t necessarily sell it and you might be able to use it. But who’s going to pay for it in the long run out that property so far that’s a typical situation really real estate khun b could be a tricky issue, a lot of due diligence required around that, whether whether to even have that, whether to accept it in the in the first place on we’ve got i’ve got a video about that on the youtube channel, which i’m going to talk about tony steak too. I’ve got i’ve got a video on yeah, about the due diligence required for real estate gifts. Okay, jean, we need to move on because i want to i want to make sure we get everything in this hour. Next of the six essentials you described, what makes a non-profit board great? Go ahead to find to find great for us. Well, i’ve handed it something. One is the quality of the board dialogue and discussion on duh that’s. Uh, and it should be at the policy level or this or the strategic level at all time would say should be ninety percent at that level, and but you’ll find that boards get quite comfortable with discussing operations because they’re more interesting. Well, that’s the policies in policy that’s the policy versus paper across our street strategy, i have yet to find the person who goes on ah goes home and says to a significant other or her significant other oh my god, we had a just of tremendous evening. And she lt’s a he or she will say, what did you do? Oh, my god. We just discussed policy and strategy and fascinating. Yeah. Find that person, will you let me know? All right. What else? What else? Hallmarks of greek board. Tough questions. The ability. Teo, drill down. And teo, talk about things that might be had happened with the decision. Okay, andi, what air the unintended consequences of the decision. Ok, so these all need to be laid out and that’s where the tough questions there. Okay. And what else? Uh, well, you need a board diversity and experience. Unfortunately, many non-profit board members are made up of for friends, family and neighbors. Okay? And you rarely see intra prin nouriel uh, board members, people who haven’t an enterpreneurs, rials streak in them or willing to take some some modest risks. When it comes to risks, the typical board will back off because they don’t want to be risked in a situation in which they might be liable. So so those are the three top things, as i see out out of that area. Okay, hallmarks of a great board on. Okay, let’s. Move. Teo, our fourth are our fourth essential straight straight talk about the board members responsibilities. Go ahead. Okay. One is she obviously have used fiduciary responsibility. Uh, overviewing the board, but at the same time not micromanaging it on dh. Also understanding the difference that we talked about between outcomes and impacts is one thing. Shall i go on? You have another one? Yeah. Yeah. Fund-raising yes. Boards have a responsibility for fund-raising, but you have to have, uh but, uh, except if you might delegate it to a foundation to fundraise for you and that is that is a perfectly legitimate approach, but boards totally have a responsibility for fundrasing, but there. But as a group, they’re really not effective. Okay? It usually takes about three or four people who are comfortable with fund-raising on are willing to drive it. Okay? No. And, uh, you know, that’s kind of the facts of life of jean. Do you like to see these? These expectations about director responsibilities in a written document for new board members off course. And, for instance, i saw one for a, uh, for a human service organisation in which their expectations for the board we’re all listed and pretty much followed. What? I had a policy for what i have in policy versus paper clips, but they they left off the fund-raising, but they had a separate foundation set up to handle fundrasing. No. Okay, so that’s, that that’s acceptable. That’s, that’s. Perfect that’s find acceptable. Okay, so they’re difficult when you get into foundations. You have to, you know, and and can lead to a lot of problems where the foundation says what we raised the money. We want to determine how it’s spent. Oh, that, you know, the way it works, right? Okay. But you even if you know, even if there is a foundation the the organization’s board members may have ah, ah, personal fund-raising, you know, give or get requirement to the foundation. Yeah, but i just want to point the example i gave you a hundred. A zing was not listed in the area of board’s responsibility. Okay, right. But they left it all to the foundations. They see. It is the board responsibility. But there might also be a personal requirement to give. Yeah, there might be a personal environment for the board. Teo getter give type of thing way that we can talk about later. I have here. Okay. Now, there’s there needs to be a good amount of trust between the board and the staff. Yes. And the board in the ceo? Yeah. Yeah, well and okay. That’s hinting at something we’re gonna get to write. But now another thing. I’ve kind of abstracted what i think they’re the important ones. You have a legal responsibility that quite often boards don’t even know about, uh uh for non-profits they have to live better different from a four for-profit board in a legal way. Otherwise their quarter, their corporations the same as a for for-profit businesses. And one is, of course, in the non-profit area you have the annual iris form nine ninety and the board has a legal responsibility. Teo to review that and make sure it’s correct before it is submitted to the irs. Uh, they will even have a system for getting e-giving extensions. If you can’t meet the data on on this. The other one that few people know about are the intermediates is the, uh i r s is intermediate sanctions act, and they know about it in the sense that if you pay above average wages to the ceo uh, you can be really responsible and fine for you, but what they don’t know there are a whole host of other things related. Teo uh, the intermediate sanctions act. For instance, if you sell a piece of property below market value, the board and the management can have and i additional taxes paid on their personal texts that bills for for the for doing for voting, for improving it and doing it something something below market fto sort of an insider is insider trading basically, uh, it’s equivalent to the insider trading? Oh, it doesn’t even have to be insider. For instance, if if you sell a ah a ah, a piece of property below value to a let’s. Say a person who serves on a committee on the board. Ah, serves as a volunteer to the organization you can. You can, uh you can define you took this. Have at a tax bill added to your bill. They’re contributing writer. I have an article thoroughly explaining that if any of the people were interested in it, if you send it to my ah requested on my at eugene fram and send me an address. Where i can? Well, i can send it through regular e mail. I’d be happy to send it to them. Okay. Okay. Cool. That’s your that’s. Your twitter id. All right. Okay, i need you. I need you to sit tight for a minute while i take a little business for our sponsors and delighted who’s. Hang on, just hang on right there because we got more with professor fram coming up first. Pursuant, they’ve got another free resource for you this’s. Their donor line report card. It will help you evaluate the health of your donor pipeline spot. Possible weaknesses and identify areas of your greatest opportunity. It is an infographic, and it’s under resource is at pursuant dot com. Check out their infographic. The donor pipeline report card. We’ll be spelling spelling bees for non-profit fund-raising they’re not like any other spelling bee that you’ve seen or been to there’s live music and dancing and stand up comedy fund-raising, of course and spelling you could check out their video. These are ideal events for millennials. Great fund. We be e spelling dot com now, tony steak too. Have you checked out? Non-profit radio on youtube? There’s there are over two hundred videos on the real tony martignetti channel. Lots of interviews over a dozen playlists. Some of them are event fund-raising dahna relations playlist, social media, standup comedy, bi weekly videos and there’s. A bunch of others. Yeah. Find what you need. Look for it on the youtube channel. Subscribe my channel israel r e l tony martignetti you could just go to youtube and search twenty martignetti on the only tony martignetti doing anything substantial on youtube. I regret, though, that you have to put in marketmesuite eye, and then you still get like martin martinez. You know, marketmesuite and then i pop up, so but i’m the only tony martignetti pops up, but you got to get that g in there. That’s tony’s, take two. Thanks for checking me out on youtube. Okay, gene, that was okay. Appreciate your indulgence. Thank you know, uh uh, the other a couple more issues. Okay, only one more because i see we’ve covered the trust point here. Go ahead. One more on board members really have to understand who who the board represents. And the borg does not represent the staff quite often. They think they have to look out for the welfare of the staff. Obviously they have to look out for the welfare of the staff that they want to be productive. But their obligations are made to the various stakeholders. It could be the community. It could be the trade association. It khun b to the, uh to the mission of the organization. Obviously, esso and and the people related to the mission is ah, is the one that’s most most common for enough for non-profit not to the staff. Okay, okay, i understand that. And that’s ah, you know, we don’t weigh can’t have staff doing and runs around their vice president or their ceo and going to the board members that’s, that’s all no, no, i want to move on way. Tio, your last two are what the board should expect from management and what management should expect from the board. So i don’t know if we can maybe deal with ease the same time. But wait, let’s, take the first. You know, doing the order. You got it in the book. What? The board should what the board should expect from management and you start with, you know, no surprises, no spin on bad news must rise. So just say a little about no surprises, no spin. Well, let me, uh, let me no surprises there. Spin. Let me start that with a war story. I was on a board of a non-profit which was a very active non-profit and serving its clients well and serving, uh, it’s mission well, however, the executive committee decided that they wanted to acquire a for-profit in another city, and they had enough finances to be able to do that, and so they went ahead and do that did it? And then they came to the board and ask them teo, to approve the acquisition after they had already signed the contract and every everything else and the reason they did it, they felt there was a banker on the, uh, on the executive committee who knew all about these things, and it turned out the banker did not know our about it. For instance, the banker didn’t tell them you don’t give the buyer full payment, and until you can see that they can fit into the nonprofit organization when you you stretch the payments out so forth. So what happened is that i went for ah state on the on the board for oh, maybe another month or two. And i resigned and used the usual excuse of work pressures because i just didn’t want to abolish the whole whole thing up, actually, you. Could have. You could have had a a legal situation there if you really wanted to pursue it on. And it worked out that way. It was just a terrible act was acquisition, but let me ask you wait. Owner, the former owner wanted to run the er the division, the way she wanted to run it instead of the way the acquiring non-profit wanted to run it. That seems so i don’t know what happened beyond it. But there was evidently a lot of conflict there. What? Why? I have to ask you a question. Well, hold on. Hold on. Altum. Why? Why did you not tell them directly? What the reason for your resignation was ok. I took the easy way out. Ok? Why wine? Because, uh uh, you got me all right. I took these because i felt that they were doing well enough, and i didn’t want to muddy the water. Okay? Okay. Okay. And that’s typical of of, uh, of a poor who looks out for the welfare of what they’re doing. They were doing a good job in the base organization. But the expenditure for the, uh, for the acquisition just turned out terrible. Ok, i appreciate you’re appreciate your being honest now under on it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. Okay, now wonder what the board should expect from management. We don’t have time to cover all the points that air that are part of that. So it just one more? I just couple. Okay, now i just want to cover one more in this, and then we’re gonna move on to what? What management should expect from the board. But talk about bad news must rise. Well, well, often, uh, people board members will keep bad news from the ceo or the staff will keep bad news from the ceo and s o uh, cia management has toe actually seek bad nose on this. For instance, one of the things that i recommend the people right now eyes make sure you have a whistle blower hotline for years. You owe your staff or even perhaps board members who don’t want toe get involved with, uh, causing conflict within the organization, but feel something needs to be checked out there. Ok? Eso eso you you have to. If you’re a wise ceo or board chair or boardmember you look for these things on dh you have to have the venues opened for them. All right, let’s, move to what management should expect from the board of the last of the last of our six essential wait, hold on. We don’t have again. You know, we don’t have time to cover everything listeners. You gotta buy the book. Of course. You know, we can just summarize, i wantto suggestion. I want e i want to focus on i wanna focus on something we just touched on. Briefly trust, trust and confidence. The mutual, the the that the management should expect the trust and confidence of the board. Yes, you have to have that because quite often, uh, the attitude is, well, they’re not-for-profits people. They’re not for-profit people aside talked about before. And you have to have to trust and confidence that the ceo is a competent manager. And there are ways of doing that. One of them when we get to advisory committees, uh, can talk a little more about that, too. But there has to be the trust that the ceo and his direct reports and others are competent managers, depending on the size of the agency, because the traditional point of view is that they’re not competent. If they were competent, they could be working for for-profit organised, i think that i hate that nonsense. I do two on, i’ve seen very competent people, wonderful people, you know, my traditional comment about the people in the nonprofit world, especially these there that they figured really stand ten feet tall rule that’s, the way i always look at it, no matter if their their case worker or if they’re a ceo when they do their job well, they tend to stand ten feet tall and there are a lot of people in that category, of course, no that’s, not it love that. All right, all right. We’re going to go. Teo. Teo, the pitfalls you’ve got, you got many chapters on potential pitfalls. We’re going to talk about the the the bad poor practices for border for boards. So why don’t you want to just start us off? Go ahead. Okay. One is dumbing down board with croup. Mint uh, where you take, uh, what who’s available and, er on that khun b anybody? For example, i recently encountered a situation, and i saw it myself with that board chair. In the nominations committee recommended a particular person who may accepted simply on the basis that his wife recommended he be aboard nhis no do deal is it’s so far, by the way, he lasted about two years burghdoff had a lot of problems, is and that is just, in my estimation, is just terrible. Okay, i understand. Wait, hold on, hold on. Because again, you got so much in this chapter. There isn’t time to cover. What do you remember? Everything you see and hear? Oh, yeah. Get they get stuff. Yeah, yeah, come on. You okay? You know, haley paid a fancy prices this. You know, this is a prepared show. Come on here. So, that’s our failing to this. I hear this a lot. So that’s why i’m flagging it, failing to delegate sufficient managerial responsibility to the ceo because this gets sticky. This gets to your policy versus paper clips so don’t can’t recite ceo and see him as her as a competent manager. Yes. Alright on that. That goes to what you were just saying about presuming competence and excellence not you know you’d be somewhere else if you if you want, let me give you a story on that one? When i was head of a, uh, board chair of a non-profit in rochester, we also had on the board of ah, the human human resource director of eastman kodak at that time. And so i wanted to make sure that we and i felt we had a competent person and but i was receiving static from other board members such as, well, his response. They had one hundred. The the organization had one hundred employees and hay on the comment. Wass well, hey, has the responsibility of the system pastor at my church. You know, uh, so but fortunately, i had the hr director from eastman kodak, and he says no. He said this man’s responsibility is equivalent to what a good, uh, middle level manager at kodak would have. Okay? And he should be paid accordingly. Ok. So as a result, i was able to get the salary that i wanted for for the ceo. But it took that in order to that power to get it right. All right, all right. And there’s there’s a lot more in there. There’s. Not more in that chapter pitfalls. But i want to get teo, don’t make sure we cover everything. I want to get to the most important job for a bored. What is it? What is it? The most important job for the for the board, uh, is ah eyes, i think ceo selection and overviewing okay. Hiring hiring the right ceo, hiring the right ceo and overviewing the person making sure that he looks at you as a partner. That’s. Why? I like overviewing the ceo and the board is a partnership. A relationship? It is not a boss. Subordinate relations look any good ceo no knows that. Uh, hey, here. She can be fired by the board. But if you give a develop a culture where the two are working together as partners and that both people will make mistakes from time to time. Okay, but that partnership is very, very important. Okay, okay. We’re going to go out for break, gene. And when we come back, you’re not going to talk about the last two. Will have just about six minutes or so to do that. Ondo? No, little bloomerang that like a little more than nine minutes or so to cover our last two. How to use the board members. Time, wisely and when and how to utilize an advisory board. Stay with us. Stay with us. Like what you’re hearing a non-profit radio tony’s got more on youtube, you’ll find clips from stand up comedy tv spots and exclusive interviews catch guests like seth gordon. Craig newmark, the founder of craigslist marquis of eco enterprises, charles best from donors choose dot org’s aria finger do something that worked neo-sage levine from new york universities heimans center on philanthropy tony tweets to he finds the best content from the most knowledgeable, interesting people in and around non-profits to share on his stream. If you have valuable info, he wants to re tweet you during the show. You can join the conversation on twitter using hashtag non-profit radio twitter is an easy way to reach tony he’s at tony martignetti narasimhan t i g e n e t t i remember there’s a g before the end he hosts a podcast for the chronicle of philanthropy fund-raising fundamentals is a short monthly show devoted to getting over your fund-raising hartals just like non-profit radio, toni talks to leading thinkers, experts and cool people with great ideas. As one fan said, tony picks their brains and i don’t have to leave my office fund-raising fundamentals was recently dubbed the most helpful non-profit podcast you have ever heard. You can also join the conversation on facebook, where you can ask questions before or after the show. The guests were there, too. Get insider show alerts by email, tony tells you who’s on each week and always includes link so that you can contact guests directly. To sign up, visit the facebook page for tony martignetti dot com. I’m jonah helper, author of date your donors. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Time for live listener love we’ve got to send out the love because love is always in the studio through the internet and interweaves of the of the nets and the woman’s and the weaves the love goes out phone lines i don’t know, you know it goes out so if you’re listening live love to you, i’m very, very grateful that you’re with us if you’re in japan, which is a very good chance you are because there’s always japan japanese checking in konnichi wa for our chinese listeners and also taiwan, always checking in ni hao and south korea also very loyal listeners on your haserot comes our ham nida, if you’re listening in the us, the love goes out just thank you. What more can i say? Glad you’re with us following quickly on the heels of live listen love it’s got to be the pod class pleasantries did i just say pod classed? I think i just iconoclast the podcast pleasantries. They always go out to our over ten thousand. I think we may be pushing twelve thousand. I gotta look at the stats. God, don’t let me look at this every week or even every month but ah, down with the the download bandwith has been expanding, so it may be more than two, but podcast pleasantries if you listening via podcast doesn’t matter how many thousands there are pleasantries to you and the affiliate affections for our many am and fm station listeners seated strategically throughout the country in carefully selected markets, our am and fm station listeners affections to you, our affiliate listeners. All right, jean, we’re going to get teo. I’m well, thank you for checking in boardmember time should not be squandered. Is that correct? That is, that is absolutely correct. Because they need thio understand you appreciating what you are doing and making sure that, uh, that they’re spending their time wisely. Okay. That’s not always the case. Uh, for example, boards tend to want to a culture eight new board members to the culture of the board. For example, if you have a financial analyst it’s likely that they might ask the person to help the bookkeeper instead of saying, why don’t you help us develop a long term financial plan for the organization? The culture is that the finances, finances, bookkeeping, not financial analysis that will take you. To the future. Okay, that gets into the micro management a bit too, if you’re having a boardmember look over the shoulder, have a staff member. Oh, all right, you have some very simple tips, but i think, you know, worth repeating because because i’ve been to board meetings that this is not done so the stuff needs to be reminded board meetings should begin and end on time. That’s right on dh er people respect that, and they they respect what what that means to them and things of that nature go ahead as we’re not just talking about these old tapes, i don’t i don’t think you specifically mentioned agendas, but nor do i like to see in agendas is is a time limit for each discussion item on the agenda, and you take a step further. You don’t just keep it there in parentheses next to the item on the agenda you appoint a timekeeper, a timekeeper. He’s not was not running definitively, not agendas should be sent out well ahead of time with the briefing materials. Most ofthe that i’ve seen is, uh, the agenda in the briefing material come to you day before or sometimes. Two days before so if you’re busy, really don’t have a chance to really study and and know what’s happening. As as a plant e-giving consultant, i am occasionally invited to board meetings to present on status, you know our plans and dance and, you know, you can tell first of all, some board members come in and they’re studiously going through the folder that was sent to them of the binder that was sent to them. You can tell that this is the first time they’re looking at it. That’s right? That’s, right. That’s done a robbery. That’s not how you make robust. Good decision. Yeah, yeah. They’re flipping through pages in the ten minutes before the meeting opens. That’s, that’s. Awful, but oh, yeah, but you see that all the time, you know? Well, it’s, uh, you’ll even see that sometime in for-profit boards to go on. But that gets kind of dangerous there because you might vote on something that will yield some fancy liability for you. Fancy liability. All right. So you like to see things? Not only before the meeting like a week in advance, but also minutes, minutes done within a week of the meeting ending? Yeah. That’s right. That’s right, because contemporaries me contemporary iss meeting’s minutes are very, very important to cover you and to make sure that they are all correct is very important. For instance, if i wouldn’t wantto i don’t want to emphasize this. If i were to vote no on something, i want to see it there at that time. So i’m on record that i didn’t think that this is a good idea. Okay, so you don’t really like waiting until the package for the next board meeting to get those units to get the minutes from the last meeting? Yeah, wait, what we have with the internet and with email and whatever, uh, there’s no reason for it except for the ceo will say, well, i just don’t have the personnel to do that. Well, uh, you auto find ways of getting that done. Okay? Uh, in each ah, and for getting it done. Yeah, so that, you know, the ceo always say, well, we don’t have the money for it, but when you press hard enough, if it’s really important, the ceo will find it. All right, we need to move to our last topic. How and when to use an advisory board. Now we just have about two minutes or so to cover this. So please bear that in mind. You have you have shortened long term purposes for an advisory board. Pardon? You recommend that advisory board to be either short term or long term? Yes. Okay. All right. Uh, it’s, your term you need people for a specific project, maybe building a on extension on the bill aboard. So you need construction people or people like that who can help you on that? That short term? Ah, long term. You want people who get to know you on and get to know the mission of the organization over over a time period. And that should be a person who is not it’s, not advisory to the board, but should be advisory to the ceo because the ceo has the responsibility for taking action. And if it’s advisory to the c e o of course, he’s going to read rejects some of the ideas except some of the ideas. And you want teo have somebody who can take action and initiate some of them. Now he has. The ceo has an obligation to report what the advisory board is saying, but i think the ceo needs to be left alone with the advisory board so he or she can let their hair down in terms of what they’re thinking about long term and what their current problems the are today, we’re going to leave it there. Gene the okay, the book is going for impact the non-profit directors essential guide book. You’ll find it on amazon. You can tell it’s packed with information we could just scratch the surface. Dr jean fran, i want to thank you very, very much. Well, thank you very much for the invitation. And i look forward to listening to it. My pleasure. And again, you’ll find jean at eugene fram fr am and his block is non-profit management d r fram, dot com and there’s a hyphen in between each of those items. All right. Okay, fine. Go. Thank you. And thank you for the questions. My pleasure, jean. Thanks for being with me. Okay. Bye. Next week. Amy sample ward returns. She’s been on maternity leave. She’s coming back alive. You bet that i guarantee you she’s coming back if you missed any part of today’s. Show. Find it on tony martignetti dot com. We’re sponsored by pursuant those online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled, and by we be spelling supercool spelling bee fundraisers. We be e spelling dot com. Our creative producers climb meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer. Gavin dollars are am and fm outreach director shows social media is by susan chavez. On our music is by scott stein. Stuck. My voice is cracked again. You with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. What’s not to love about non-profit radio tony gets the best guests check this out from seth godin this’s the first revolution since tv nineteen fifty and henry ford nineteen twenty it’s the revolution of our lifetime here’s a smart, simple idea from craigslist founder craig newmark yeah insights, orn presentation or anything? People don’t really need the fancy stuff they need something which is simple and fast. When’s the best time to post on facebook facebook’s andrew noise nose at traffic is at an all time hyre on nine a, m or p m so that’s when you should be posting your most meaningful post here’s aria finger ceo of do something dot or ge young people are not going to be involved in social change if it’s boring and they don’t see the impact of what they’re doing. So you got to make it fun and applicable to these young people look so otherwise a fifteen and sixteen year old they have better things to do if they have xbox, they have tv, they have their cell phones me dar is the founder of idealist took two or three years for foundation staff to sort of dane toe. Add an email address their card it was like it was phone. This email thing is fired-up that’s why should i give it away? Charles best founded donors choose dot or ge somehow they’ve gotten in touch kind of off line as it were on dh and no two exchanges of brownies and visits and physical gift. Mark echo is the founder and ceo of eco enterprises. You may be wearing his hoodies and shirts, tony, talk to him. Yeah, you know, i just i i’m a big believer that’s not what you make in life. It zoho, you know, tell you make people feel this is public radio host majora carter. 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