Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the pod father of your favorite abdominal podcast. Oh, I’m glad you’re with us. I’d suffer the effects of politico phobia if you campaigned for the idea of missing this week’s show, here’s our associate producer, Kate with the highlights. Hey, Tony, this week it’s a different take on donor retention. Most donor retention research is on process like get your acknowledgment letters out within 24 hours. Kerri Hecht’s research takes a fresh look at how to keep folks with you. She shares her thinking on getting people to donate, time volunteering and donating through purchases. Ky is CEO of 10-K Humans on Tony Steak. Two hails from the gym, the loudest voice in the room were sponsored by donor box. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org and buy pork bun. Looking to grow your nonprofit. You need a.org domain name from pork bun, instant recognition, trust and visibility pork bun.com. Here is a different take on donor retention. It’s a pleasure to Welcome, Carrie Hecht. She is the founder and CEO of 10-K Humans, a company paving the way for a more forward thinking and people centric approach to market research. They’re dedicated to elevating synthesizing and counting every voice, demonstrating that harmony between people and data is within reach. You’ll find Kerry on linkedin and the company is at 10-K humans.com. Kerry. Welcome to nonprofit radio. Thanks so much for having me. I’m glad you’re with us. We got some, we got a, a very interesting spin on a very common topic, but you approach it from a little different perspective. Uh donor engagement and literally 15 minutes before we were gonna begin our recording. I got an email from the chronicle of philanthropy. The subject is how to stem the decline in donors. This literally came 15 minutes ago. Uh They quote some stats. I was gonna ask you, but with your indulgence, I’ll just run through the dismal retention stats. Uh donor retention was down 3.5% in 2023. This follows 4.3% and 4.1% declines in 2021 and 2022 respectively. When viewed by donation amount, the retention rate for donors of $50,000 or more was down 5.6% for donors of 501 to $5000. It was down 5.4% and for donors of $100 or less, it was down 4.2%. The Chronicle, of course, they have uh some advice and their very first piece of advice is provide volunteer opportunities which leads to what we’re gonna talk about first. Uh But I wanted you to acquaint our listeners with your research related to uh your, which drives your advice. Yeah. So we started working with nonprofits for a couple of different reasons. Um The first of which was trying to go through the world in a more purpose driven way. So we started building into our work travel when we would go to different cities that we would line up. Um, you know, set up some meetings with charities where we could talk to folks and whether it turned into something or not was really not even necessarily the point. It was sitting down and talking to people all over the world who are solving the biggest problems. And what we realized in doing that is, um they didn’t really have a strong understanding about how to leverage the assets that they had in order to make smarter decisions around things like uh donor retention, um increasing their donor base volunteers as well as understanding and relaying back to the other stakeholders. The impact the beneficiaries of their service were having. And that is a conversation that, um I actually had earlier this morning too serendipitously. Um And it, it is one that just repeats itself over and over and over again that charities much like uh you know, businesses don’t they have in their head, what people think of them, which doesn’t necessarily align with what they actually do know or think about them and it could be donors, it could be volunteers and there is no feedback loop that gets back to the donors about the impact the services are having. And volunteers don’t really understand all of the different ways that the organization helps or all the different ways they can engage with the organization. This is, and this for me now on conversation 35 seems to be a universal truth. So your um your advice is around uh the reason I said it’s, it’s different than the, the typical take on. This is that uh uh uh the typical take is more related to the transaction. Uh The transaction of donating typically, like, you know, do an acknowledgement letter, you know, if it’s an online donation, the the person should get their first thanks within five minutes and then they should get a more formal thank you by mail within 24 hours or so, you know, it’s more involved around the transaction that way at all, we care about you. You’re thinking about, well, two things donating time and donating through purchases. I mean, so donating through time, you’re talking about volunteering. Yeah, so volunteering, but we’re so donating through time is obviously volunteering. But really one of the things that in and you know, maybe this is going in a sort of a slightly different direction. Our biggest thing is working backwards to make sure that people have the information about what you do and really understanding. So you’ve got, if you think about any charity got the three stakeholders, right? You’ve got the beneficiaries volunteer base and then the donor base and the donor base is going to increase. If they understand the impact, the volunteer base is going to, to grow if they understand the impact and the opportunities as well as what it can do for their lives, right? And then you’ve got um the purchasing aspect of it, which I see as something that becomes a natural consequence of these other two things. So in our mind and what we have been, how we have been working with charities is working backwards from making sure that the in the appropriate information is getting to the appropriate people because without understanding how it is what the charity is doing, that is impacting it and what their value proposition is and how they’re delivering on it. Those stakeholders don’t have the information they need in order to determine whether to donate their time, their purchasing power or their dollars to you or another charity. OK. So let’s talk about that, starting with the the donating time, the volunteering. So, you know, just uh uh as a reminder, you know, why might folks, uh I think there are several reasons why folks might volunteer uh and spend uh a different precious resource. Money is a precious resource. But time is as well, including, including for older folks who might be retired. Time is still a precious resource. Uh There are still opportunity costs for every hour they spend donating to your nonprofit. They could be doing something else and for a retiree, it might be golf or it might be the grandchildren. Uh, you know, for someone working, it might be more pressing or what you might consider more pressing. But, uh, uh uh sometimes II, I hear golfers talk about their precious tea times. So, you know, I’m not, don’t, don’t, don’t presume that work is more important than golf to, to workers versus retirees. Yeah. Well, if you think about what that tea time actually represents, it’s bonding time, right? It’s bonding time with their group of people. It could be, um, bonding time with work associates. It could be bonding time with friends or family. So, when we interview volunteers, that is one of the first things that comes up is that they talk about it becoming um, an exercise that they can do with their peer group that they can do with their families that they can do with their friends or colleagues that they can create uh organizations within their universities or within their, um even their work environments where they create these, these, you know, pods of people that are like minded and then they collectively go and volunteer their time for something and they do it together and it gives them not just an activity to do, but then a commonality within the group. And then, uh, you know, even as, as advice for a young person, as you’re looking to differentiate yourself between competition, um, in the hiring pool, this is something that people are looking at. So there’s a lot of reasons to volunteer that fit in exactly with the same reason that you would go see a base ball game or that you would go play golf or that you, you know, imagine a scenario where a grandparent is volunteering with a grandchild, right? These are activities that you can use for camaraderie, social bonding, growing your resume or your CB, all of those things exist, but we don’t really talk about that very much. I, I wanna pull on the one thread, uh expanding your CV. Volunteering is a great way to show that you have interest in a AAA mission or an organization that you might end up wanting to apply to. But if not that specific organization just that, that type of work that you devoted, you know. So if you don’t have experience in uh saving whales, but the, the work moves you and you might want to work in an environmental cause or an ocean, ocean preservation cause or something, you know, then, then donating your time is a, is a very savvy way to prove to potential employers that, that you do have interest because you’ve devoted a precious resource to it. Well, right. And there’s additionally, you know, if you look at the statistics around uh who becomes a leader within organizations, it is there’s direct correlations to the earlier you become involved in volunteer programs, especially when there is a longitudinal nature in your relationship with whoever it is that you’re volunteering with. I have an affiliation with Explore Austin, which is an outdoor um uh provides outdoor activities. This is understates it completely to underprivileged kids in Austin, it’s a five year program and you have a group of 15 kids that stay together for that five years. And then a group of um five mentors that stay with that group of Children for five years and they go from middle school all the way through high school. Um And when they start, often, they don’t even know how to ride a bike. And then by the end of it, they are leading um hardcore camping excursions into the mountains in Idaho. And um you know, so if you think about the leadership skills and the mentoring relationships that go along with that, you know, that has taught that kid how to be a leader, how to be a good member of a team and then how to be a mentor because they start as a mentee and end up in, you know, as a mentor. And I think that that is applicable um for all of these things and, you know, there, I read an article recently about, um, you know, kind of how to cut through the clutter of, of, of applying and how there is a decrease in, um, Bachelor’s degrees being the relevant reason to hire a person. You know, that there’s just not as much, um, cachet associated with having like everyone. It’s table stakes now. Right. And that there are a lot of people who don’t want to take on the debt that is associated with the bachelor’s degree that isn’t going to get you further. So there is this whole strategy behind cultivating your own experience through auditing courses, engaging with charities. Um becoming, you know, part of leadership groups and mentorship groups and things like that, that is setting people aside when it comes to looking at the talent pool. And so I think that there’s within charities, you can, you know, to your point, you can cultivate whatever experience you want. Let’s just say that you’re going to apply to grad school. Um and you’re looking to be a clinician of some kind, very hard to get a research assistant job. Well, volunteer your time at the Trevor project, volunteer your time with doctors without borders. There’s a million different ways that you can cultivate that big experience yourself. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money but also supports you in retaining your donors, a partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s donor box, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers just like you a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges, helping you achieve the growth and sustainability, your organization needs, helping you help others visit donor box.org to learn more. Now, back to a different take on donor retention. Another maybe more fundamental reason folks volunteer is they may not have the money to donate to your cause, but they still love your cause. And so you wanna make sure that they have the information as you as you’re recommending so that they know that there is an alternative. We don’t, you know, our, our organization doesn’t only want your dollars if, if um if there’s another way that you prefer to give or another way you need to donate, you know, we have opportunities. I, I completely agree with that. So what should we share? What, what, how do we, how do we encourage now? Now we understand why folks might do it. Uh How do we encourage volunteers to step forward? Yeah, I mean, I think this is, there’s, there’s, I mean, that’s a great question. Um So we were working with an organization um in Tokyo and they started doing advertising campaigns. So they were one of the largest organizations, charitable organizations in um Japan. And the reason why this is so interesting is that culturally volunteering is not something that they do versus the United States. Um where we are often trained from a very early age, either through school organizations or religious organizations that service back to the community is something that is kind of woven into the fabric of, of, of how we go through the world. Um And so they were talking about, uh so we did a lot of research on the benefits for the volunteer and then we created advertising campaigns around that. And I think that there are a lot of opportunities for organizations to work with corporate sponsors, perhaps the corporate sponsors that are giving them money, they can also work within those organ. And we saw this in, in what was happening in Japan working with those organizations to create corporate volunteer banks and the people in the corporations that were volunteering would get acknowledgment within the organ organization that they worked for. So again, that is a way to get something besides money even from a large corporate donor, working with schools, working with college campuses and really articulating the benefits of it to them. So, you know, if you think about the different things that we’ve even talked about already, which are camaraderie, skill set, um Cooper experience with, you know, intergenerational co-operative experience um with your family, all of those things can be the same thing that you would treat a brand different pillars of advertising campaigns and then you would hit them up in different places right. You know, you could hit them up at, at college funding, you could hit them up at, um, career fairs. You could hit them up around the holidays when you’re looking to create warm fuzzies would be no different advice than we would give to a brand that was looking to sell something. You also want to share the impact that these volunteers are having, that you can have as an, as a volunteer even if it’s a solo volunteer. Um but a, as a, as a solo or as a group, you enter families, companies, neighbors, I guess maybe a giving circle, you know, whatever, but you want to share the impact that you’re volunteering will have as well. Of course, I I’m sure of sharing the impact with the current volunteers that, that, that they’re having so that so that they, they feel good about the time they’re spending already. Yes. Well, and it’s all about the stories of the people, right? I mean, and that I think is what, what we in market research are doing, you know, aim to do is to bring those stories to life because, you know, behind every number, behind all the statistics that you listed, there are human beings who are, you know, the reason that their donations are declining could be economic, could be cultural. Um You know, what is going on in the world. There’s so much uncertainty, it could be competition for resources. Um It could be they just lost, uh, you know, track of, of the organizations that they were donating to. You know. So there’s, there’s, there’s stories behind all of it and it’s important to understand those stories. And again, you know, I think that, that, that human beings proved time and time again when you give them a compelling reason to, um, to, to give, they are, they want to, right? They want to help, they want to participate. You know, even on like a personal level, if I think about when I got into volunteering as a, as a kid, it was because we had to, right. It started with brownies and, you know, so that has a service. I remember brownies. I was, I was a boy scout. I remember brownies. Of course, before, before boy scouts you have, we blows or girl scouts, you have brownies. Right. That’s right. And then we had, when we were in high school, we all had to be candy stripers at the hospital. And then, um, as a person that’s moved around the country quite a bit when, um, you get to a new city, there’s no other, there’s no better way to. Number one, learn how to fill up some free time before you’ve got your friend circle. Um, then to start volunteering in places when I, you know, moved to Brooklyn, I was volunteering at the Brooklyn Zoo, um, volunteer at animal shelters and it just gives you a way to get sticky with the community quickly and I was doing that on an individual basis. Right. And that was literally to just acclimate. Where did you, where did you live in? Brooklyn? What neighborhood? I lived in Park Slope and Williamsburg. I was a member of the Park Slope Food Co Op for about 18 years. Yeah. Yeah, they’re, they’re great neighborhoods. Right. And, um, I loved going, my, one of my volunteer jobs was to protect the goose from Children trying to interact with it. So, you know, there’s all kinds of, I don’t know, the goose, the goose, the Goose war, the Brooklyn Zoo at the Brooklyn Zoo. Oh, ok. Oh, things get a little too handsy. Like, leave the goose alone. It’s very stressful. Yeah, it’s very stressful on the goose. Right. Um, all right. Well, there’s opportunity for everyone. Pardon me? I said there’s opportunities for everyone. Absolutely. Uh, just since you mentioned, you know, moving around all over the country before we started recording, you and I were talking about the places where you, you move around now, acquaint folks with, uh, where you have residences at three different places. Yeah. So I have, um, a place in Los Angeles, which would, I would say is my primary home base. And then I have a place in, um, Austin, Texas, um, which has been great and, you know, I’ve, I’ve gotten involved with a lot of different organizations there and you talk about sort of the differences between Austin and L A. Um Austin is still a very accessible city where you can get yourself um involved with City Council and involved with charities and and meaningful work. Very, very, very, very quickly. It’s a very progressive city. So in addition to that, they’re looking for people who are committed to making um life in, in the city better for the people who are struggling with perhaps rising cost of living and so on and so forth. And then Haines, Alaska, which is a um very small city outside of June. So you have to take, it’s like planes, trains and automobiles to get there. It’s a puddle jumper away from Juneau. Um which, that’s where I, as I was mentioning before, I’d like to go to clear my head. But even there, they have um farmers market every Saturday in the summer and they’ve got an Eagle Preserve. And um I like to volunteer my time when possible when I’m there to either of those things because it’s a great way to meet people who live there year round and become part of the community. You can’t drive from Haines to Juneau. You can, but it’s gonna take you a while. I mean, so, you know, it’s a 30 minute, 30 minute puddle jumper or an 8.5 hour drive or a four hour ferry ride. But however, you decide to get there, it’s, it’s an amazing visual experience and how much time do you spend on an average year? How much time would you spend in Haines? Yeah. So, I’m building a house right now. So, the hope is that I will be spending more time. But I try to go up there at least for a week every other month, especially while the house is being built. Um, just to make sure that it’s like that, that is tracking and doing its thing. But you have to be, um, you know, there’s, there’s often no cell reception. So if you’re not at your house, you don’t have cell reception and there’s, there’s a lack of um you know, infrastructure. So there’s, there’s literally no pharmacy, no hospital, no doctor, there’s no stoplight even in Haines. And so, you know, you, you need to make sure that you prepare well, in advance that your work is going to be covered or, and you know, that kind of thing because once you get there, you’re, you’re a little bit out of touch. Interesting. All right. So like how do you do uh supermarket shopping when you’re, when you’re in Haines? They have, they do have two, they’ve got three supermarkets. Um You got food. Yeah, but they, they, the biggest difference for me is that in Austin and LA, I am very store averse. So I tend to be an exclusively an Instacart shopper. Uh even though there is a grocery store right across the street from my house and I actually have to go to the grocery store when I’m in Haines because nobody will bring it to me. Yes, I see you. You’re, yeah, that’s roughing it when nobody will. That’s a real camp. You, you feel like you’re on a camping trip then nobody’s gonna deliver my groceries. All right. Um, all right. Now, it sounds like an interesting. I, I don’t know. Uh, yeah, I mean, uh, it’s kind of isolated. Like, no, you’re saying no health care in the, in the, in the town. I was climbing the top of a mountain um, to the top of the mountain and I got cell reception when I got to the top of it. And I, and in my, um, I had gotten some calls from some doctors and my phone started like blowing up, you know, had the voicemails on like Blip Bloop and they’re like, where are you? And I’m like, well, I’m on the top of a mountain in rural Alaska and they’re just like, got to stop doing that. No, I hope they didn’t discourage you. Your doctor, I would, I would think would be encouraging you. All right. Um So let’s, let’s uh let’s pivot a bit. So before we pivot to purchasing, donating through purchasing, is there anything more you want to share about volunteering and getting folks to donate time and reassuring our existing volunteers? Um I would just say it’s always worth it. And, you know, there are so many opportunities out there that um and there’s even services that match you with the kinds of things that you are interested in or have a natural proclivity to. Um And there are, you know, when, when I was growing up, of course, the, the internet was brand new and um now there are services that will allow you to volunteer your time through organizations that will also help you see the world. I mean, so the opportunities are really quite endless. And I think that, that, you know what that means to me is there’s something that, that can fit every scenario or every stage of life um and every interest. So I think that it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s all I’ve never had anyone say that it wasn’t worth their time. And I think that if you weave that into your business, you weave it into um you know, how you interact with your friends and your family. Um It can be really quite profound across the board and from a purchasing perspective, you know, if you’re, if you’re looking at, um you know, there’s a, there’s a whole different conversation to have there, which is, is probably its own um you know, two hour long conversation. But, you know, if you, if you as consumers um being purposeful and how, and where we spend our money uh and making sure that you’re doing the research to make sure that it is doing good in the world. To me, it’s just a very important value. And I think that, you know, a lot of corporations are in that space now, but again, a lot of charities are getting, are funding themselves um through having uh commerce, like ecommerce websites or by selling a service. I just talked to a patient advocacy group who pays for the services with um that they provide to patients by providing market research services. So, you know, paying attention to the kinds of businesses that you’re doing that you’re working with and um you know, trying to align as much as possible, whether it’s partners, things that you purchase that in a way that, that aligns with your own value system, I think is important and worthwhile. It’s time. Frere Pork bun.com named the number one domain registrar by USA today for 2023 and 2024 work by helps you share your organization’s mission with a.org domain name dot org. And the entire.org family of domains are at the heart of change makers and philanthropies worldwide. Join an international community of individuals and organizations sharing a common goal to make the world a better place. Your.org domain name gives your website credibility. It’s easy to remember and it helps bring better awareness to your goals. Every domain at pork bun comes with free features like who is privacy SSL certificates, web and email hosting trials and more. You can manage everything about your domain from one place backed by five star support 365 days a year. Get your.org Domain name for a low price at Pork bun.com. It’s time for Tony Steak two. Thank you, Kate. I’m a little sad. You’re not with me this week. I enjoyed it the past two weeks. Side by side. I know it was, it was a lot more fun. Felt the vibes a bit more with, yeah, with your uncle. So I have some more tales from the gym. You know, I should have brought you to the gym. I didn’t even think of it. I could have uh I could have shown you the gym just so, you know, it really does exist. Um Yeah, the loud guy. This is, this is a new voice. I think. I recognize this guy from long ago many, many months ago before I started the Tales from the Gym series here. But he hasn’t been around for a long time. And today he was the loudest guy even, you know, above the boat mechanic and, and the other folks. And actually, and he was talking to Tim. I remember Tim. He was the needy guy with the birthday. Had to tell everybody, including me that it was his birthday. So everybody would say happy birthday and I thought that was pathetic. Um He was talking to Tim so he had an audience of one and they’re standing right next to each other. You know, they’re not even yelling across the gym. Nobody does that. But they’re not even doing that standing right next to each other and, and he’s the loudest guy this and he’s, he’s political pontificating. I, I listen to how all the candidates are. Both, he was talking about the presidential candidates and both used car salesmen. Tim is just kind of nodding. I think Tim was kind of get away a little bit. I was on the elliptical at the time so I could watch out of the corner of my eye. Tim was given some negative body language like folding his arms and, you know, but it’s North Carolina. So everybody’s too nice to say, you know, you’re an idiot or I disagree with you or anything. Uh You know, we just, 00, that’s, is that right? Oh, they, they both are used car salesmen. Oh, ok. So just, you know, it got me thinking the, the loudest voice in the room is not the smartest voice. This guy is spouting off, you know, his political opinions and I just hope that you don’t let that happen in your board meetings or Zooms or, you know, whatever that the loudest person like has the credibility. Oh, they must be right because they’re the noisiest. Those two things are not even correlated. There’s no relationship between volume and in sight. So don’t let that happen. Especially on Zoom meetings. I was thinking, you know, people can bowl over each other and dominate and, you know, you can’t even tell most times that somebody else is trying to talk if they, unless they’re, unless they continue talking and then the two people are, you know, competing. But if one backs down on Zoom, you can’t even tell that somebody else is trying to speak. So don’t let that happen to you. Men are probably the worst of it. Uh, the worst offenders. Uh, I’m not saying it’s universal but generally, like men tend to be the, the blow hards. So don’t let that happen. Don’t let that happen, uh, in your spheres of influence. And thats Tonys take two Kate. Oh, I’m so happy about the Tim update. He, he’s my favorite out of all of your tales from the gym because I feel like he’s just from what your stories are. He was like the kindest and like, not annoying, like the, the woman who had her spot, you know, and she kicked you out of her spot, that kind of, or like the, the guy with the bow, you know, those are like, I wouldn’t associate with them. I wouldn’t associate with Tim. He, he is, he, he probably is the, uh, the, the most quietest, uh, quiet spoken. But, you know, he had that needy episode on his birthday. I think next year if you remember what day it was, I think you need to bring in a cupcake or something, you know, a little, one, little candle, something I did not mark it on my calendar. Uh, I forgot about the, uh, the Turf warrior lady. Yeah, I forgot about her. Right. Right. My first class, first class, I went to a class when I was there and I should have taken her spot and, oh, yeah, you could have. Right. Because we could pretend we didn’t know each other or, you know, or you just, it’s your first time there. Right. It looks like it was mine. I’m gonna stay here now. Yeah, I still see her. She is in good shape. I have to give her that. But uh turf, turf battles. All right, we’ve got just about a but load more time. Here’s the rest of a different take on donor retention with Carrie Hecht, you know, specifically for our purposes. You know, with our, our listeners obviously have their own purchasing decisions as you’re suggesting you’d be, you’d be purposeful about. But, you know, our listeners are also working in small and mid-sized nonprofits. So, you know, we want to talk about, uh I wanna, I wanna pull on that, the, the uh thinking about what your nonprofit might be able to sell, right? And this is what we’re talking about, purchases, selling in terms of services or products, you know, that you may not, you may not now be uh exploiting, you know, how to, how to think about that, what you might embark on the, the types of, you know, what you need to know about the market. Uh Let’s let’s um let’s, let’s start where we did with volunteering. You know, why folks might, why, why you might be able to induce people to purchase products or services from your nonprofit? Yeah. So we work with um a clothing brand uh out of Australia who they’re an urban streetwear brand, um called homie and they’ve cracked this right. They have. So what they do is they focus on, on providing skills to people who are bordering on homelessness or at high risk of becoming homeless. So they don’t focus on the shelter aspect of it. They focus on um literally teaching them how to be marketers, how to work in stores. Um They work, teach them how to make clothing. Um they teach them how to navigate uh conversations with much larger brands to get their defective products where then they take them and turn them into limited edition. Um you know, cool street wear that it becomes collectors items, right? And they have some, they’ve got a two year program that they bring people into where they teach them this skill set and they have something like a crazy, like a 97% success rate. Um and they have stores, you know, all over Melbourne and they’ve got an ecommerce website and things like this. And so that, that is just one example of not just creating a tangible product, but creating a skill set to create that tangible project project and then becoming something that is um as cool or as hip as anything could be. I mean, they’re like, you know, they’ve won all kinds of awards um for just how they’ve been able to crack that code. And again, this, this company that I was talking to yesterday um about the patient advocacy. So, patient advocacy is an incredibly important um and necessary thing for people, especially who have chronic illnesses given how complicated doctors and insurance and everything else are. So they, they, you know, they, they didn’t start in a place where they were a market research company. They started in a place as a patient advocacy group. And then in order to pay for it because they weren’t able to get the amount of donations that they needed, they’re like, ok, great. Well, how do we product ize what we’re doing and so what they’re doing is they’re interfacing with um you know, patients that are often have rare or rare diseases, doctors and organizations. And so they leverage that by providing brands um and different kinds of corporations access to those people. So that’s how they make their money, which I think is really quite brilliant, right? You know, especially when you think about market research is often looking to make the lives of um people better, especially when you’re talking about things like that. So they’ve monetized it in a way that um that, that doesn’t impact who they’re trying to serve. So I think that there’s, there’s a lot of clever things to do out there help us understand how you, how you start to conceptualize this. I mean, if I’m in a small or mid size nonprofit, you know, I’m II I can’t see myself starting a AAA brand and, and having stores selling the brand, I can’t see myself there. But how can I think about what products or services might be, might be appropriate for me to explore? Yeah. Well, so, so interestingly, both of the examples that I gave one was uh started with two people and they started with an ecommerce site, right? Um And then the other one was, um and, and there’s this story is, is, is familiar in market research, um that it was a lady who started a business at her kitchen table, right? So both in both of those cases, they actually were um, you know, one man, two man shops that just were clever about how they were thinking about it. So for, I think the smaller to mid size um nonprofits, it’s kind of the same way that you would think about a small to mid size business and getting, you know, your products out there. So, you know, let’s just say I’m trying to think of some other examples that could be um uh let’s use an animal shelter as an example. So we often will see um things here where it’s like rent a dog for a day, right? So you get people who then they’re not necessarily volunteers, but maybe they’re in the city and they want, are looking for something to do. And so they donate some money to the charity. They get a dog that they can then take out on a hike and spend the day with and then they return the dog. Now that dog has been paid for, you’ve earned some money and that person’s had a wonderful day and a positive experience and now has a positive affiliation with your charity. So I think there are lots of different kinds of things that you can do that are um whether it be experiential. Um You know, if you think about the, the patient advocacy group is a combination of experience for the um you know, the people that they’re advocating for and then monetizing that by giving companies access to it, which in essence, makes these people’s experience even better experiential with the example of the dog. Um You know, even if you think about, um you know, charities that are um affiliated with, you had mentioned the co op before or for example, me with the, the farmers market in Haines, I do that so that I can spend the day there with them. So they’re selling um you know, vegetables that they have grown. The Eagle preserve in Haines is selling um you know, the experience of coming in and looking at their eagles, right? And so, you know, you pay to get in, you pay to listen to someone, talk about their program, you pay to listen to, um, you know, you get to see things up close, that’s a product and a service that you’re selling right there. So, I think there’s lots of different things they can do that don’t cost you really any money to set up. Um, you know, Ecommerce website doesn’t cost you anything to set up, giving access to, um, you know, the back end of an animal shelter and, and providing someone with the knowledge of how the ins and outs of that work doesn’t really cost you anything to do. But people will pay for experiences, think inherent in what you’re saying is that you don’t wanna take for granted the, the experiential possibilities that you have just because you’re, because they seem mundane to you because you’ve been seeing it for the past 4.5 years. I worked there all this time, you know. Well, it’s no big deal. What happens at the back end of the shelter, you know, we shovel dog poop and, yeah, but there’s, there’s medicine and there’s, there’s, uh, uh, volunteer opportunities and there’s, uh, I, I mean, even I was at an animal shelter that had a small surgery center could witness surgeries from behind the glass, you know. Um, you could maybe even assist somehow. Yeah, I don’t know. You know, you don’t want to take for granted what’s mundane to you. Just, just because, uh, you know, you’re limiting other people’s perspective based on your own. Right. The rent a dog thing, if you think about it is one of the most, you know, for an animal shelter is sort of the easiest possible thing to accomplish. You know, you’re giving people, let’s just say that that three people took you up on it, it probably costs you nothing to put that on your social media. You know, something that can ultimately pick up some traction as more people do it. They have a good experience. They come back, they do it again, they tell their friends about it so on and so forth. Great for the dogs because they’re getting socialized. Great for. And there’s a bunch of pictures of the dog on the website out with their partner for the day, you know, smiling in the, in the woods instead of in a cage. Right? So there’s these, again, this feeds what the goal of the charity is, right? So there’s lots of different things like this. We did some work with a charity called, um, Surfers for Strays, um, which is in a, a dog and animal rescue as well as clinic in, um, Mexico, uh, where they do spay and neuter clinics in, in very rural Mexico. And she has a, um, so you come, you pay to go stay at, with her in her, her compound. She’s also, um, a yoga teacher. So your, your experience is a combination of having, you know, morning yoga classes and then helping take care of the animals and then, um, you know, and then that funds the charity. So she’s giving what she has on a personal level as an experience and then that combining that with the experience of the charity. So you’re getting yoga and warm fuzzies and learning about, um, you know, cultural differences and how we treat animals in different countries. All right. Yeah, I just, I want folks to feel empowered that the, just think, think about what value you have and, you know, like we’ve said, and there, all right. So there are some market uh like practicalities too to, to sort of constrain our thinking a little bit. Uh But I don’t want to constrain it too much but, you know, value, right? You have to, you do have to provide some value. It’s not, it’s not gonna be sufficient that you’re supporting the organization. Correct? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you, you, if you think about anything, it has to be sticky, right? So, if you think about a con even a conversation that you have with a person, um that is a one off conversation. Some people you end up becoming lifelong friends with and some people, that’s it. Right. So what is the difference? It’s having more things in common, perhaps inspiring each other a little bit. And that’s gonna be the same thing with any relationship that you have, whether it be with a brand or a charity or a human being, right? That if you, if you can find ways to um, interest, engage and elevate each other, then you will, you know, you’ve got that two, the two sides of that working together. And that’s when you really start developing advocate networks and things like that. You also have to think through, you know, who you’re gonna be promoting this to, you know, your target, your target market. I mean, this is right in your wheelhouse as a market researcher. But, you know, I just want uh I’m trying to just uh constrain a little bit with the the business realities of what, you know, what, what you can do. You need to know where you’re gonna be selling this too. Yes, for sure. And I would say, I would say, you know, my advice is always to be responsive and agile, right? So if you are dealing with, with often, you know, small charities or even small businesses, you’re dealing with um tight timelines, small budgets, um not enough people, right? So I would say, you know, there’s, there’s no reason why you can’t try something that is small with very limited resources, but then pay attention to the outcome and iterate quickly. And I think that that is the same advice that you would give to any small business owner or any start up, right? It’s, you know, keep your eyes open and keep your ears open. Look for what is impacting people and then have the conversations, you know, I just getting feedback, doesn’t have to be large scale. You can get feedback that even if it’s anecdotal is still actionable. And I think that that’s so we’re talking about constraints, you know, I tend to be an eternal optimist. So I’m trying to like immediately and, and naturally pivot to, yeah, but don’t limit yourself. Right. Because you could have three conversations, one with a donor, one with a volunteer, one with a beneficiary and you could come up with, you know, even though that is anecdotal in, but that may be all you have the resources for, there can be actionable things that you can pull out of that. So don’t be afraid to start the, I mean, the first thing to do is just start having the conversations, just start looking at what resources you have already in house from um you know, your mailing lists and from, you know, the the organizations that you support, the people that you support. You know, there’s many things that you can do that cost absolutely nothing to start gathering information and then that information becomes actionable. Yeah, you have incredible resources just, just in house. Talking incredible resources is yourself. Yeah, talking to the folks who are doing the work or meeting the service beneficiaries, you know what, what you’re just having the exploratory conversations. Uh Yeah, it is, it is all anecdotal but, but it’s, but it’s valuable still it’s anecdotal, but it’s highly informed. Right. Right. Well, and then you have five anecdotal conversations and then you’ve got enough information to put together a small survey that you can then send out that costs you nothing because there’s plenty of free services out there that you can send out to your donor base or your beneficiaries or your volunteers. And then you don’t have then, but then we’re past the anecdotal, then we’re into the numbers, right? So, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, I think that it’s just don’t be intimidated by it, don’t be afraid of it. And, you know, everybody has to start somewhere and everybody doesn’t get it right the first time. Like literally everybody iterates on every idea that they have. Oh, absolutely. I mean, look at, I’m looking at my phone to make sure that we don’t go over time. I mean, you know, Apple didn’t launch iphone 15 uh in, in 2007 or whenever that, you know, when they launched Apple, the Apple phone and then it was 2.0 and three. But now we’re 15. So, of course, you know, it, you know, it goes back to your uh uh on a smaller scale, your advice to iterate, you know, be agile, listen to the people, listen to the three people who took out the first three rented dogs for a day. What did they say when they came back? You know, not that you had to talk to them for an hour. But how did they feel? What did they say? Was there any, was there any problem? Yeah. Would you do it again? What would you recommend? You know, we’re just getting started. You know, there, there’s 33 data points, uh, highly informed, they just went through your process. So, learn from those three and then do another five or six and there you go. Next thing, you know, you’ll be at the iphone 15. That’s right. And, you know, I always personally have the um the philosophy too that you should be generous with your time and generous with your spirit. And I think that when you go through the world, that way you end up surrounded by people who are also generous with their time and their spirit and leverage that. Right. That’s because that’s because the people who are uh uh uh what’s the opposite of general are, are uh generous. I was gonna say that guy, it’s Scroogey, Scroogey. They’re scroogey with their time and their spirit. You know, they’re gonna naturally sift away from you. You’re, you’re, you’re gonna naturally sift them out. Um They’re, they’re just gonna fade away because you’re not gonna spend time with the Scroogey people. Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. And I mean, I think about, um even in my own career, um I had so much help and so many good mentors and, you know, we have woven that I think fairly successfully into um how we bring people up within our own organization. You know, and there’s a million free resources out there to get people. Stingy. Stingy is the word I, 62 words sometimes have diminished accessibility. Stingy is the word I was trying to get for. Ok. But stogy works too. I’m sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, I was just saying, you know, there’s, there’s, um, you learn a lot about yourself and other people when you help open doors, right? And there’s, there’s, you know, using this would be applicable to charities and small businesses as well. Like if you’re looking to cultivate skill sets, um you know, there are a million resources out there that are low cost or free Coursera, for example, being one. So let’s just say again, you don’t have, um you have limited budgets to hire people, but you need them to become advanced Excel experts. Well, it cost you 40 bucks to take a course for a whole month of as many courses as you want on Coursera. Boom. Now we’re, we’re, you know what I mean? So, so get out there and really start, you know, don’t, don’t think about the things that you can’t do, think about the things that you can, you know, I’m routinely saying something that’s directly a corollary to that uh focus on how you can not, why you can’t. Right. Yeah. And we’re saying the same thing, I just put it in different words. But, you know, I tend to think that anything and everything is possible until proven otherwise. And once in a while I am. But, you know, and it’s usually, you know, a little bit of a painful lesson but then you iterate and you make it possible. So, navigate around the, the hurdles and if you’re looking for reasons why you can’t do something, oh, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll jump at you. You’ll find a dozen reasons why you can’t, we, we don’t have enough time. Uh It’s not the right budget cycle. Uh We’re a little short staffed now. We’d have to fill this position first. Now, we have an open board seat. Now, we have, you know, I have to focus on that. Now, the gala in six months now, I just, uh, you know, hypothetical organization, I just named like eight reasons why you can’t do something. So if you’re looking for those, the, they’ll jump out at you focus on the how you can. Exactly. Right. And, and, you know, the other thing I would say too is tick as many boxes as you can, right. So when we started the, the, the, the line of, I don’t even call a line of business because it’s not. But the, the internal initiative um that we call 10-K causes, which was doing this pro bono work for charities, right. So we had a bunch of different reasons that we were doing it and it was to create a sandbox and training ground for our employees. So when we had employees that needed to be upskilled, um or were looking to level up in their career, you know, that we could, we could create this environment for them where we could experiment. So and then experimenting with new technology, you know, maybe we don’t understand it well enough to run it on a live project. So let’s experiment with it. It gives us collateral material and case studies because most of the work we do is under nd A. So there’s, you know, so if you think about it, we’re helping these charities, but there is for sure, a self serving nature to it as well. You know, and it’s, and I think that that’s, that’s really if I could drive any point home that it’s like it goes back to that those relationships that I’m talking about that become sticky that it’s like these are mutual beneficial things. We’re learning about the world, we’re learning about our business, we’re learning about what we can do. And in the meantime, we’re helping small, you know, helping charities learn about their potential and they can take, you know, what we know natively to brand building um consumer insights and apply those learnings to their own um organizations. So it’s, it’s, there’s absolutely a mutually beneficial aspect to it and there should be to all of these engagements, outstanding uh advice, uh thinking uh stuff that folks can take back and, and advance or at least think about it on their own and then advance. Uh Why don’t you leave us with some, some parting thoughts on, on your, you know, this research and ways that we can, you know, leverage what everything we’ve talked about for all for the good of donor retention. Yeah, I would just see, be end curious, right? Be end curious about why, what your organization is doing, how it’s benefiting people don’t take for granted that you know what is important to the donors and the volunteers from an information standpoint, ask them what important and then go and build on that and give them more than what they, what they’re asking for because the more they know the more likely they are to stay engaged. And I mean, I think in a nutshell, that’s what I would say. Information, feedback, loop, information, feedback, loop, information, feedback loop, Harry Hecht, founder and CEO of 10-K Humans. You’ll find carry on linkedin. The company is at 10-K humans.com. Thank you very much for sharing your thinking, Carrie. Yeah, I appreciate it. This was great. Next week, Professor Russell James returns with the right words and phrases for fundraising. If you missed any part of this weeks show, I do beseech you find it at Tony martignetti.com were sponsored by donor box, outdated donation forms, blocking your supporters, generosity, donor box, fast, flexible and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit donor box.org and buy pork bun. Looking to grow your nonprofit. You need a.org domain name from pork bun, instant recognition, trust and visibility. Pork bun.com. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer, Kate Martignetti. The show social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guide and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that. Our permission, Scotty be with us next week for nonprofit radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95% go out and be great.