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Nonprofit Radio for March 24, 2025: Join Us At #25NTC & Great Value In Sustainable Giving

Amy Sample WardJoin Us At #25NTC

The 2025 Nonprofit Technology Conference is next month in Baltimore. Nonprofit Radio will be there. You still have time to join in-person or virtual. NTEN CEO, and our technology contributor, Amy Sample Ward, reveals all the learning and fun you can expect.

 

Dave Raley: Great Value In Sustainable Giving

Dave Raley is the author of the book, “The Rise of Sustainable Giving.” Our subscription economy has spawned a change in donor preferences and great growth in recurring donations. Dave shares his expertise on incentives; creating a thriving sustainer program; naming; converting donors to sustainers; what the future looks like; and more. He’s the founder of Imago Consulting.

 

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Welcome to Tony Martignetti Nonprofit Radio. Big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. I’m your aptly named host and the podfather of your favorite hebdominal podcast. Notice. I expertly wished you happy Saint Patrick’s Day last week when it was Saint Patrick’s Day, so prompt, so timely, right there, so no need to apologize this week for wishing you happy Saint Patrick’s Day week, a week late. We’re right on time here on nonprofit Radio. And I’m glad you’re with us. I’d get slapped with a diagnosis of cataphagia. If I had to repeat the words, you missed this week’s show. Pretty sad when the, the bar is just set at. Being on time with a happiness wish. That’s, that’s, that’s a sad state. Here’s our associate producer, Kate, to introduce this week’s show. Hey Tony, this week it’s join us at 25 NTC. The 2025 nonprofit technology conference is next month in Baltimore. Non-profit radio will be there. You still have time to join in person or virtual. N10 CEO and our technology contributor, Amy Stammple Ward reveals all the learning and fun you can expect. Then Great value in sustainable giving. Dave Raley is the author of the book The Rise of Sustainable Giving. Our subscription economy has spawned a change in donor preferences and great growth in recurring donations. Dave shares his expertise on incentives, creating a thriving sustainer program, naming, converting donors to sustainers, what the future looks like, and more. He’s the founder of Imago Consulting. On Tony’s take 2. Tales from the gym. If they can do it, we all can. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, Donorbox.org. Here is. Join us at 25 NTC. I’m ready to record with Amy Sample Ward. They are the CEO of N10. Uh, they’re also, of course, our nonprofit radio technology contributor, but today it’s the CEO of N10 role that we are here to talk about because we’re talking about 25 NTC, the 2025 nonprofit Technology Conference. It is coming up April 16, 1718 in Baltimore, Maryland. Let’s talk 25. Amy, can’t wait to hugs, hugs. Uh, and, you know, I, I know that most of your time at the NTC you’re recording for nonprofit radio, but what’s nice about it is you’re not in like a recording studio. And so I can always walk by and just listen to who. You’re talking to and um I always see other people standing there listening, um, or taking photos, you know. Yeah, I love, I love the visibility. Yes, we’re, we’re gonna be, we’re in the hub in the commons, which is where all the meals are, all the all the uh keynote sessions, all the general sessions are right there, everything. What else? What else? The receptions, receptions, yes. Uh, so I, I feel like, you know, we’re just, by the time this is airing, we’re just gonna be 3 weeks out. So we probably should focus on the online. Version of uh you know, people register for the in-person conference. Even in person, like they will walk up on day 10, you get walk-ups every year. Oh, all right. Well, all right, so then let’s keep that open. All right, yeah, you you can still register to join us in Baltimore. Of course there is an online only virtual side of the conference that you can also register for and never leave your home or your office or wherever you are. That’s right. There’s, there’s a version for uh each in person and online, and if you need to switch, you can go, this is all on the website, there’s a little spot for switching from virtual to in-person and vice versa. And if you register for in person and end up not coming or you came and you felt like there was too many sessions to choose from, or you could only come for 1.5 days of the, of the 3, you have access to all of the online content, just like somebody who registered for only online. It’s all So if you register for Baltimore, you’re basically registering for both, essentially, because you can access all content. Right, for next, for the following 3 months, I think you can get access to all the, all the, uh, virtual sessions because there are a number of virtual only sessions, but as, as you just said, OK, you get access to both really if you, if you, OK, so all right, so let’s keep up the possibility then. so, you know, where should we show up if we’re, uh, if we’re walking in. Uh, of course, all the info is at.org naturally. But you know, just where, where are we in Baltimore? Where are we going? We’re at the Baltimore Convention Center right by the harbor, and I don’t believe that there’s another event happening in the convention center, um, but at least the area we’re in is very clearly just us. You can walk right through the sky bridge from the Hilton or walk from the Sheraton. They’re connected to the building, um, and Of course, as always, there are lots of other activities that happen that aren’t in the convention center, but all the sessions, all of the main conference stuff will all be in the convention center and We’re trying something that we’ve never done before, um, but because of the physical proximity to the stadium, we, with thanks to the financial support of three of our sponsors, have bought out two sections in the stadium for attendees that want to, to all go over to the Baltimore Orioles game together, uh, Wednesday evening. So, like, knock on wood for Memorable weather, whatever. I don’t want to just say good because it seems like it’d be good, you know, jinx, but um and this is free. This is free. Yeah, you got sponsors covering hundreds of tickets for, yeah, yeah, that’s outstanding. Baltimore Orioles game. OK, that’s that’s the football team. Noball. Oh they play baseball? All right. Well, baseball, no, that’s good. Baball is good. That’s right. That’s right. OK. um. Oh, I thought you were joking, but you were being serious. No, I was joking. OK, OK, good. OK, good. I was like, oh gosh. Yeah, so it’ll it’ll be fun and I think that. Somebody from our group, I mean, it doesn’t need to be me. So maybe, maybe we can convince the sponsors to do it. Even goes down on the field and says, Hey, everybody from the conference is here, and we all get to wave. So cool. I thought you were gonna say you’re gonna sing the anthem. Oh my gosh, no, they would pay me not to do it. All right. Um, so let’s remind folks that NTC. The nonprofit technology conference is not only for technologists. We, we say this year after year, but we have new listeners each year and maybe somebody didn’t listen to last year’s NTC TS TS show. Let let’s make this very, very clear. It’s not only for technologists. Well, it’s, it’s such a complicated thing because on one hand, I would say it’s 2025. We are all using technology to do our job. And so in some ways, we’re all technologists, but This is not a conference that was founded 25 years ago or still today operated with the assumption that everyone that is making decisions about technology or using technology or wants to know, like the latest developments of technology, see themselves as The IT director or or has technology in their job title, right? And so the topics, I mean, there’s, I think 162 with the latest count or whatever in the spreadsheet, you know, of of sessions, but there’s so many opportunities in sessions and out to talk about all the other implications beyond any technology system, you know, it’s not necessarily. Just about which CRM which database are you using? It’s why, why do you even have that data in your database? Where did it come from? Do you know when you could get rid of it? Do you have a retention policy? You know, it’s all these other pieces that impact, yes, our technology systems but also impact our work and how we can do that work and technology is just in in the mix of it all. There are multiple tracks that that are not that involve technology naturally that overlap but fundraising, there’s a fundraising track, there’s a diversity, equity accessibility track, um, there’s a leadership track, you know, there’s, so there’s lots of different subjects across these 160 some uh sessions, and some of them will be. Uh, I’ll be talking to the speakers from some of them, a subset of them, for future episodes of nonprofit radio. Of course, that’s what I’ll, will be on the hub, uh, will be in the hub at the Commons recording. Um. I love the, you know, if you do go, if you go in person, I had to, you know, I’m looking at the lunch, it’s incredible. We had to, I think we talk about the food every year, but I got, I got, I’m reading now. I’m reading from the lunch description for each of the three days, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. All meals at the NTC. Include a range of options for gluten free, vegan, vegetarian, low carb, low salt and low sugar dietary needs. Menus avoid or label the inclusion of peanuts, tree nuts, shellfish, eggs, cow’s milk, soybeans, sesame and wheat. Halal, kosher and celiac meals are available on request, and if you need a space away from the cacophony, look for signs for the quiet tables. It’s such a thoughtful damn conference. I mean, this is just around the food, but that’s a microcosm of the thoughtfulness around NTC. Well this is a quite a core value of, of NTC and N10. Tell us how you, you think about what people need. At a conference and and how you execute on that. Well, maybe I could start with the food that feels um especially relevant, what you don’t know, or externally doesn’t know. Um, we have, um, I will say an animal rights activist organization, uh, that you can anticipate who they are in the community, glad they’re in the community, glad they come to the conference, learn from sessions, you know, presented sessions, etc. Who Has, um, for a number of years, tried a few different campaign strategies to have the conference be entirely vegan. I am vegan. I have been since I was still a teenager, you know, I I don’t disagree necessarily, but as an insight, and I’m glad that there are conferences that are able to be all vegan, but our community has Members in it who have allergies that make uh all vegan, you know, diet at a conference where it’s just all set out on the table, not something they could eat at. Um, and we have folks with disabilities who, even if they don’t have an allergy, they have food related needs that allow them to be comfortable and manage their day without having to go back to their hotel room, right, to eat, um. There are a lot of different things that come across someone’s decision making mind when they’re standing at the beginning of that like buffet table, right? And some of them are dietary, medical, health related, some of them are emotional, some of them are social, right? Like, what if you don’t recognize any food on that table? None of this food is from a, a shared culture that you have. We have people from 16 different countries coming to the conference, right? You might not be allergic to any of them, but if you don’t know what any of them are, and you’re trying to have professional conversations and you’re really trying to get along with this person that you just met in a session, right? And maybe you wanna work for them, and now you’re faced with a bunch of food that you don’t know what it is. That’s very difficult, right? And so we think about Accessibility in a lot of different ways at the conference, and what are the pieces that we can put in place that make it so people are comfortable, they have some things that they can recognize and anticipate throughout the day. It’s why we have coffee and tea at all different hours because Again, culturally or from the time zone that you’re in, right? You, this might be when you want coffee. Uh, so we really wanna think about how do folks move through this space without having To use up all of their decision making or all of their thinking for the day on where do I need to go? Is there gonna be food there? Can I get more water? What do I need to do? Like, we want all of that to be in place so that people are using up their brains saying, wow, what should I think about AI? Oh, wow, what should I learn about this new data standard? What, right? We want that to be where people can spend their thinking and not on Am I gonna be able to eat here, you know? It’s all very thoughtfully done. You, you, you, you call it accessibility and ease, uh, and I, I just caption it as thoughtful, thoughtful. A lot of thought goes into, uh, hosting over 2000 people, right? How many, how many do you think we’ll have. Well, I mean, unfortunately, we have in person, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it’s so similar to 2020 in which, um, that was the year that it was meant to be in Baltimore previously. Um and with the start, uh, it was scheduled for March 23rd through 25th, 2020. So that was right when We were the first event that was canceled with the governor’s, you know, declaration that events are. I remember, I remember tearful. Yeah, because we made the choice to cancel before the governor, before any governor had stopped events, and so we had to make the choice to cancel, knowing that it would mean we’d close the organization because we’d have to pay all the fines. And thankfully, our lawyer found that the cancellation to the convention center, uh, has to be in writing, and we, we never bothered to tell them we weren’t coming because that felt self-evident, and we had spent a week telling the community and the governor said, hey, there’s no events, and we’re like, what we’re, we don’t have to pay. I mean we still have to pay some, but We didn’t have to close as an organization, right, and pay every dollar we had, um, but now with all of these just erratic and harmful changes that the administration is unleashing basically every day. We’re having, you know, we’re hearing from folks asking for a scholarship. They just lost 75% of their funding because of what’s happened, you know, they still want to come to the conference. They, they know that that’s where they can connect with people and get resources and, and learn. But they are firing staff, they, they have no funds. So we’re giving scholarships out to, you know, anybody who’s writing to us um in those situations, and we have continued the regular rate for anyone within about 100 miles of Baltimore that is maybe, you know, a a a local in that way to try and keep um it accessible. To folks who are really having those impacts. Um, so we’ve seen a lot of, not a lot, but a number of folks in February need to move to virtual because they Their organization no longer has funding, you know, um, which is Difficult and just outrageous that we’re in this place where organizations, you know, are somehow the target of I don’t know. I, I, I don’t even know how to frame what the situation is. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah, so that is gonna impact how many folks are there. I mean, I’m sure they’ll still be, um, you know, 2000. Regis registrants, it’s just by the time we get to April, what will be the mix of a couple 100 online, you know, people in person, who, who, who can still physically come, you know? Um, and unfortunately, we’re having folks from a few of the non-US countries say, hey, I’ve been advised not to come to the US. So I’m not going to travel there anymore, and I’ll just be a virtual attendee. Which is also infuriating because this is a global community and I Don’t like that we would have, I mean, we’re just talking about accessibility, right? And, and that all the elements that we try to control so that we can create a, a place where folks really can be together and share their ideas and build power and, and make relationships that are beyond any of these, you know, oh, you work in a different organization. Who cares? We can still share our ideas. We can still figure this out together, right? And To have folks Feel unsafe is is. Not what we want, you know, and obviously not in our control, not in our, not our doing, but it still on a bigger scale to have folks feel unsafe entering the United States. Right. It infuriating. All right, let’s not end on an infuriating note, although, uh the the realism is uh realism and not ignoring. I feel like, I feel like too many. Too many of our community’s content creators are ignoring the reality that it’s besieging us every single day. Yeah, it is every day. I, I, so, you know, reality is essential. I, we’re living it. So, well, that’s a great pivot. We could end on something uh positive, which is the three keynotes that are coming because Alyssa Richardson. Her work is just on what you’re talking about. How do communities use the technology they have access to social media, etc. to shine a light on what is really happening in their community, to have some access to power through truth and information. Um, she has written books, she’s a professor, she has a, you know, whole lab, um, at UCLA or USC, um, and it’s just really An incredible person, so she’s One of the keynotes, just as you were just saying, why are we not talking about this, um, and Doctor Ashley Xu, who is the author of Against Techno Abelism and you know, kind of trying to counter this idea that technology is here to cure us and make us perfect because we don’t need to, you know, what what if we get rid of disabilities, which is such a Elitist ablest idea like this disabilities are in so many people in so many different ways, and that’s not that something’s wrong with them, you know, um, technology isn’t some cure or solution or path to perfection, right? That’s no, no, no, that’s so antithetical to, to what, at least in the community we’re talking about with technology. So I’m excited for her talk, um. But we also have Michael Running Wolf, who’s worked on indigenous language projects through AI. So yes, it’s probably unavoidable to talk about AI, but can we talk about it rooted in absolutely using it in ways that help us as the users, as communities who didn’t get to necessarily have access. To build open AI or anything else, right? So what, what do we, what, what can we learn um from Michael’s projects really rooting those technologies in um communities most impacted. All right, 3 outstanding. Keynote speakers, you’ll enjoy one each morning. Right after the breakfast. Yeah, or you can even, you know, if you’re a slow eater like me, save your breakfast and eat it while they’re talking, yeah, and savor your breakfast because it’s all in the same place. It’s all ins and of course the virtual attendees are are part of that part of the the keynotes as well, and they’ll be having breakfast, you know, on their own, just your camera will be off while you’re eating your Cheerios. Yeah, exactly. All right. Uh, so April 16 to 18, uh, Baltimore Convention Center, all the info is at n10.org. It’s right up the top of the website. You can’t possibly miss it. Join us in person, come see, come see nonprofit Radio at the Commons in the hub. We’ll have our studio set up or join uh 25 NTC virtually, but join. It’s, it’s worth it. It’s, it’s, it’s a smart savvy conference. That’s why this is the. 11th NTC that I’m bringing nonprofit radio to because the speakers are savvy and smart and they benefit all of us and as Amy, as Amy said, we all work with technology in our jobs and so the nonprofit technology conference is for you. Be with us. Thank you, Amy. Yeah, see you there. I’ll see you in a couple of weeks. Sounds great. All right, bye. It’s time for a break. Imagine a fundraising partner that not only helps you raise more money, but also supports you in retaining your donors. A partner that helps you raise funds both online and on location so you can grow your impact faster. That’s DonorBox, a comprehensive suite of tools, services and resources that gives fundraisers just like you, a custom solution to tackle your unique challenges. Helping you achieve the growth and sustainability your organization needs. Helping you, help others. Visit donorbox.org to learn more. Now it’s time for. Great value in sustainable giving. It’s a pleasure to welcome Dave Raley to nonprofit Radio. He’s the founder of Imago Consulting, an advisory firm that helps organizations create growth through innovation. He’s the author of the book The Rise of Sustainable Giving How the Subscription Economy Is Transforming Recurring Giving and what nonprofits can do to benefit. That’s what brings him to the show. You’ll find the book at sustainablegiving.org. You’ll find Dave Raley on LinkedIn. Dave, welcome to nonprofit Radio. So good to be here, Tony, and good to actually be, as we were saying offline on the other side of the mic. I’ve appreciated listening to the show and glad to be on it. Thank you very much. Thanks for being a listener. Congratulations on the brand new book. Oh, thank you, thank you, it’s been uh. Quite the journey, 3 years, um, 438 hours of writing enumerate the stats in the book. I, I have a friend who, um, because I I I’ve worked a lot with uh charities through the sort of the marketing agency space, Tony, and so I had a friend comment like, Dave, you don’t need to track your time. You do know that, right? And I thought, I don’t know, I just like tracking things, so I don’t want to track my steps every day, but I will track the number of hours I poured into this. This, uh, this, uh, passion project for sure. So as you were writing over those 4, you were you were keeping a log. I was keeping a log and thinking I don’t know if this thing’s ever going to. To be done candidly, I think the 1st 3 years, probably the 1st 2 years were like, OK, 1 ft in front of the other, and, uh, such a, such a huge effort, um, but I’m really proud of the book, uh, the early reception, and just I’m really hopeful that it makes a significant difference in our sector. It has that potential, absolutely. Um, if I may, I’d like to read from, uh, the foreword to, to sort of frame us a little bit, uh, your, your forward is by Gabe Cooper, CEO of Virtuous who’s been a guest on uh nonprofit radio also. The reality is that nonprofits are fundraising in a world that no longer exists. The total number of donors giving to nonprofits has consistently decreased over the past decade. Donors are more distracted than ever, and they receive a constant stream of ads and personalized messages from their favorite brands. Most donors still desire to make an impact in the world, but it’s become infinitely harder for nonprofits to break through the noise. That’s, uh, that’s as far as I got on the book. That’s page uh XXII. I stopped. I didn’t even to the pages. That was great. I didn’t even get into the Arabic numbers, so I, I stopped at XXII. Um, now, so. Uh, it’s getting hard to get through the noise. We’re, we’re fundraising in old methods. That was a little frame up. Why don’t you please give us, uh, your take on, on Gabe’s wisdom there. Yeah, you know, I, one of the meta sort of topics that I’m really passionate about is what does sustainable innovation look like? Uh, the book is certainly about sustainable giving and recurring giving in light of how, um, shifts have changed, and we’ll talk about that shortly, but You know, to respond to the way Gabe positioned that, number one, we are absolutely in the middle of a generosity crisis, um, and, uh, that is in North America, that the number of Americans that are giving to charity today is less than, uh, last year and is less than the year prior. Now, as those of us in this industry know, often the amount of dollars that are being given to to philanthropy, um, by individuals is increasing, but that’s thanks to largely mega, uh, you know, billionaire donors, which go for it. I would love them taking their, their philanthropic giving as well, but I do think there’s something about how do we teach the next generation generosity and what does that look like? Um, but to Gabe’s point about models, um, one of the things I always, uh, say is that it’s really important not to confuse your organization’s mission with your model. So your mission is about what your organization, your cause is, uh, is trying to change in the world. Your model is how you do that, right? Including how do you fund doing that. And so when I think about sustainable innovation, I think every organization, every institution, Is really somewhere on that organizational life cycle curve, you know, that S curve you see in like business books, you know, where it’s like infancy, early growth, mid-growth, slowing plateauing and decline, right? Every organization goes through that, and that’s just kind of a like the, you know, fourth law of thermodynamics for organizational health is that those models do age out. And so for me, um, the reason innovation is so important is because it helps us create new S curves, new models to effectively accomplish the mission that our organizations are called to, so. Innovation is critical, uh, models do shift over time, and one of the models that I’ve seen shift, uh, tremendously over the last decade is what’s been happening in the space of recurring giving, namely for the charities that have historically been left behind, uh, Tony, 3 quarters of charities, um. have historically not been able to really tap into strong, growing, resilient giving, you know, they’re not the local public television or public radio station or museum or, um, you know, 1 to 1 sponsorship type of organization. They’ve done pretty well over the last 100 years, uh, with Rick Gibbing, but it’s really the, the food bank, the rescue mission, the relief and development agency. The, uh, the think tank that hasn’t been able to really build strong growing resilient, recurring giving until really the subscription economy and the rises of subscription economy has essentially led to changes in how we consume. You know, the average American today, Tony, has, uh, more than 12 subscriptions, maybe to their chagrin, right, I know 96% of us I think have more than one. And yeah, I was 9. 9.8%. I have at least one subscription, adults, um, and what’s the number you just cited a number of subscriptions. Oh my gosh. All right. Um, before we get into the sustainable, let’s let’s define the subscription. I mean, Yeah, no, the Amazon Prime and Netflix are ubiquitous, but let’s just, let’s just make sure we’re all starting at the same place. What, what’s your sense of the subscription economy? Yeah, and you know, you, you hit it on the head. I think everyone kind of intuitively knows what it is today. Um, 10 years ago when I first started talking about this in the industry, Tony, I had to explain that, you know, what do you mean? You know, subscription. I was like, well, have you heard of Netflix? Oh yeah, OK, I get it. But today it’s really the rise of recurring ongoing, um, transactions in every area of our life, in our business lives, you know, we’re on Zoom right now. I don’t know about you, but I have to pay for the Zoom subscription. Um, you know, I listened to Spotify this morning while I was writing my latest wave report, the weekly column that I write on innovation, that’s a subscription. I had to change the batteries, by the way, in my Arlo camera, um, uh, some people use Ring. Uh, these, these doorbell cameras. Yes, right, you have a subscription, yeah, you make a point. You have a subscription to your doorbellion to your door. If you would have told me 10 years ago that you’re going to be subscribed to the doorbell company, I would have said, uh, no thanks, that’s not great. And yet I gladly spend, you know, whatever $15 a month to know when an Amazon package gets dropped off. One that that strikes me is that we used to pay. One time you used to buy a subcri you used to buy the product Windows. Windows you used to buy the, the operating system and every couple of years there was a new operating system and you have to spend $200 or $300 to, uh, now and, and other things similar but you now have a subscription to Windows 365. It’s called 365 and, and that’s the way you now access the Windows operating system. I don’t know, just, I don’t know, 78 years ago it wasn’t that way. Yeah, well, and I don’t know about you, but or your listeners, but I went uh kicking and screaming, you know, you’re like, no, I wanna own my software. I wanna own my music. Until you start to realize, oh yeah, how long did it take me to go from Windows, whatever, 95 to it was XP first and then 95. It’s like you would, you would end up with this like grossly out of date software because you’re too, I don’t know they meet you, but I was too cheap to, you know, get the next set of software to the point where it is so that ongoing value proposition, which by the way, is a key lesson for fundraising. Your proposition, yeah, but you have to, you have to like the reason I I give money to Spotify every month is not because I’m renting music from the music company. It’s because there is an ongoing each month I’m receiving novel value, and that is what’s uh helping me continue to stay in that subscription. And so I think software, I now look at it as a gift, right? I started uh started my company. And Mago just uh just under 3 years ago and I was so grateful that I have to spend several $1000 in, you know, in software costs. I knew I could I could subscribe to Adobe Creative Cloud, to Google Workspace, to Zoom, and get a lot of value and spread out that cost, um, but that their ongoing value is so powerful. Share some of the uh stats that you have about sustainable giving, why this is so important for nonprofits. Yeah, there’s, you know, there’s certainly some of the, um, the commonly used stats about the value of sustainable giving, which just to rattle through a few of those, average retention rates, 78 to 86%, that’s versus a multi-year, you know, single gift owner we call them. That typically they’ll retain about 42%, so, you know, almost double or in some cases literally double the the uh the the retention rate, significantly high, higher long term value, 5 to 7 times the long-term value. They’re 6 times more likely to leave an organization in their estate, um, or legacy plan, uh, if they’re a recurring donor. I was just doing a seminar with a Group that does uh recurring or I’m sorry, does legacy giving, Tony, and they, um they just did a study of all of the organizations and all these state gifts they’ve monitored and the number one most predictable factor, um, after an after a donor had been on the file for 10 years, so. The first one was longevity, but the second was frequency. It was the frequency of giving and so recurring givers were the most likely um indicator that they would be a legacy giver. That’s outstanding. What can you shout the company name? Yeah, Canopy Resources, um, for Ministry. They’ve got two different brands. Oh sorry, no, C A N O. OK, OK, but don’t spell it right, the incredible value. And but there are some less known statistics. Neon, the folks over at Neon looked at over 200. They found the average charity from 2019 to 2024 grew recurring 127%. So this is not, um, you know, I’m a big believer in seeing, you know, what changes on the horizon and what waves, you know, are coming. This is, this is an opportunity that’s not something that’s just coming down the line. I’m not here saying, hey, I wrote a book, Tony, in 2 or 3 years, this is going to be a big deal. It’s like, no, no, no, it’s a big deal right now, and it’s been a big deal the last couple of years. But, and this is critical, my, I feel like part of my role in this sector is to help people to connect the dots that it’s a big deal now, but then what do I do about it? And so really the, the third part of the book is ultimately, well, the 2nd and 3 parts of the book are how to take advantage of the subscription economy and then how to build and grow a thriving recurring giving program. Also recurring donors, uh, you make this point, give 25% more than their, their recurring donation commitment. Just, just flush it out a little bit quickly. Yeah, the, you know, and, and I, I’ve had some, as I’ve been speaking about this at conferences, I have had occasional people come up to me and say, yeah, set it and forget it, right? And I’m like, no, that actually it turns out in the subscription world that doesn’t work either. But really your recurring donors are the most generous single gift donors, meaning the average recurring donor um on a file will give in addition to their annual recurring giving another about 25% in single, what we call single gifts, right? So it’s the year-end gift, it’s the emergency relief gift. And so when I work with organizations to map out their cultivation of recurring donors, I’m we’re always looking at what are you doing to give your recurring donors additional gift opportunities, um, how are you messaging that to them because just as much as some organizations might think, well, you know, we should just uh not send any uh additional asks to our recurring donors. No, the opportunity is really to. To cultivate them because they are, they’re the most bought into your cause. So when there is that disaster or that uh crisis situation or that year end, again, those major times of year, those donors are often the most responsive. So what we’re seeing is that That this uh subscription economy that’s ubiquitous as you described. Has led to a change in donor preferences on the charitable side so sort of the, the corporate side has taken this and accelerated it and, and it’s like we said now ubiquitous. People are expecting this on the and, and looking for it even on the, on the charitable side. So it, so it’s a, it’s a shifting donor preferences, would you talk about that in the book. Yeah, and it’s really about um a lot of these trends, um, start on the what I would call the consumer side, right, which is just it’s it’s it’s setting tones. I remember I I started in the industry in the early days of digital fundraising and um I remember when people were were worried about putting their. Credit card in online and I remember when Facebook came out and clients would say, hey, should we do fundraising on Facebook and I would say, no, it’s a good, it’s a good relational platform, you know, it’s a good way to connect with your alumni or whatever, um, because it wasn’t intel several years of in this case Facebook being around and people becoming used to basically their consumer lives and their social media lives intersecting. That’s when then. You know, in this case, I think it was the Haiti earthquake that was the real uh linchpin moment, um, in the late 2000s when Facebook and the Red Cross raised, I think it was $30 million overnight and it just, that changed the landscape. Of people being willing to give related to their social media presence. Well, if it weren’t for several years prior to that of people getting used to using their credit card online and all these other things, it wouldn’t have paved the way for generosity. And so I’m seeing the same thing, the subscription economy is not new. I don’t have to convince people that it exists when I speak now, but I do have to help them understand how that has really laid the groundwork for people’s philanthropic behavior changing. You call in the book subscription philanthropy. Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know if that’s your phrase. I had I had I’m crediting well, and the funny thing is, you know, and I don’t want people and I talk about subscription giving too. I want to be careful on the reason I didn’t use that in the title of the book, by the way, was I don’t want people to think I’m trying to, we’re trying to make philanthropy and generosity a consumeristic act. Now there is a value proposition and there’s a value exchange, and sometimes, by the way, there’s goods and services that even exchange hands. If I watch your public, you know, television station or I visit. The museum or I get the, you know, the free book resource, there could actually be some form of sort of good or service that exchanged, but what I’m trying to point out with subscription philanthropy is that really, um, there are some lessons we can learn from those subscription worlds and we can apply them to today. I remember when the streamlined purchasing uh um pages, I’m thinking of, you know, Amazon, one click buy, when, when those were emerging, they were influencing. Well, they were influencing what donors expected from an online transaction, and that influenced what nonprofits had to. Had to create that we had to make a, you know, more seamless online not a purchase but an online giving process because people expected that from the, from their commercial side. So this is, you know, it, and I think that’s terrific. I think there are lessons that can be translated, they learned from the commercial side to the charitable side, uh, that’s, that’s all to our benefit on the, on the charitable side. Totally agree, totally agree. So let’s talk about, you know, now we have to, you know, I always remind listeners, you know, you got to get the book because there’s only so much we can talk about in an hour. So you got to get the book at um at sustainablegiving.org. Of course, we all, uh, you can also get it through Barnes and Noble and Amazon, etc. um, but you know, give Dave’s landing page some hits because uh. He’s a metrics guy he’s tracking the metrics on the. You’ll you’ll end up with a copy of the book either way, but you may as well make, uh, make the gateway through, uh, sustainablegiving.org. So. Uh, we’re, we’re jumping a little ahead, but I, I do want to talk about some of the incentives. So now, you know, we’ve talked about sustainable philanthropy, how important sustainable giving is, how that’s created a subscription philanthropy, so that’s what I meant, subscription philanthropy model, um, some of the incentives if you wanna, if we wanna move into this. We, we, we don’t feel like we’re doing it well enough, the, uh, the way the Gabe Cooper quote, you know, suggests that we either not doing it, which is really unwise, um, well, you know what, let’s take a step back. Let’s go to, let’s go to the nonprofit that isn’t doing. Uh, isn’t doing sustain or giving. And we’ve already explained why, why it’s important. We’re not, we’re, we’re past the, the motivation step, but what should we think about, you know, like what should we bring, what do we need to bring to our vice president? What, what topics do I need to, as the vice president bring to the CEO or what issues, you know, what help me make the case, I suppose, for the nonprofit that may not be, uh, unwisely, unfortunately, but, uh, doing this type of giving. Well, the first thing I would say is you have a recurring giving program. Whether you call it something or you’ve actually spent any time on it, whether it’s any good. I have not met a nonprofit that does not have donors who have chosen to give on a recurring basis. The question is whether or not you’re taking advantage of that and whether or not you are creating growth. It actually again reminds me of the early days of digital, where I would, I would go and, uh, to a charity and I would say, hey, I think we can really help grow your, you know, your online giving. And they would say, oh, it’s already growing 20% a year. And I would be, and I would say, but how fast could it be growing because the reality is just with adoption, people are going to choose of their own volition. You know, in this, in the case of digital, to give online, in the case of subscription giving to give on a recurring basis. So first thing I would say is you have recurring giving um going on in your organization and so it’s about understanding what is that today and then what could it be in the future. I am a huge believer in the potential and, and really painting the picture for that. So I always like to ask people, you know, how many, how much, how many donors do you have today? How much are they giving on a recurring basis, because Nobody’s starting from zero, and that’s actually the good news. So that’s the first thing I would do, um, uh, certainly give them a copy of the book, that’s apparently, uh, work, uh, the book’s only been out, Tony, but, uh, just for a month as we record this, but it’s been really powerful when you have that kind of like I could try to convince you of something or I could let this third party podcast episode or you know or actual book, um, uh, you know, do some convincing for me, um, but. I think it’s really just recognizing that you do have a recurring giving program. The question is, are you going to do anything about it? And, um, and once you know kind of where you are today, that’s where you can start to um forecast for lack of a better term, like what would it look like to grow this program, and, you know, what, how might that enable our our mission that our organization is trying to accomplish? You’re, you’re thinking, you know, as I was reading. Made me sort of reimagine the work that I do, uh, it’s sort of a different framework. My, my work is planned giving fundraising consulting. You, you listen to the show, so you probably know that, um. You know, and there are, uh, clients that have donors. I’m thinking about a handful of people, but they, they’re doing their recurring giving, they’re just doing it every year. They’re putting $1500 or $20,000 into, you know, on the planiving side into a charitable gift annuity. So you, you got me thinking, you know, well, all right, so. In, in, in my practice, I’m seeing this. I, I don’t think that is recurring giving. I, you know, but what, what value proposition we’re gonna get, you know, we’ll get formally to the, to the value proposition. We’ve, we’ve teased it like 4 times now. We will get to it. I, I promise our listeners, um. You know, but what am I offering these folks, you know, so some of them, uh, have come to expect maybe a comp to the annual gala at which is like a $500 a person ticket. So there’s $1000 you know, that, you know, I, I hesitate to be, uh, too, too, um, lofty in my own like self-aggrandizement, but I meet with them often, you know, there’s that, um, I’ve introduced them to the CEO. And in one case I’m thinking of uh an attorney who I introduced to the chief legal officer at a client. So they’re, so they’re getting it just got me thinking, thinking differently about my work. Yeah, uh, uh, uh, you just gave me a little different framework to think about, um, which was very kind of, uh, opening to me. So thank you. Oh, you’re welcome. Well we’re seeing it in planned, which, you know, you would think, well, planned giving, like that’s the opposite of recurring recurring giving is transactional. No, well, this is what we’re here to learn that sustainable sus sustainer giving is not transactional, that’s not what you want, but the, the, the stereotype is, well, planned giving is totally relational and, and this recurring giving is totally transactional. All right, so we’re here to break that down for you’re wrong about the sustain the sustainer giving. And there is overlap between the two. it was kind of a broadening thing as I was reading the book. Well, and even there’s a reason that you don’t see in the book, uh, save for maybe one or two spots. Um, I don’t refer to it as monthly giving. I refer to it as recurring giving. I didn’t call it I did I make a mistake? No, no, no, but I’m, I’m actually, it, it reinforces the point that you’re making, which is, is planned is at least certain parts of planned giving actually a form of recurring giving. You know, I go back in the, in the early part of the book, the kind of the ancient history studying humanity and Plato and you know, different people around philanthropy and the earliest form of recurring giving was the ancient Jewish people and the practice of what they called first fruits, you know, it’s like if you’re a If you’re a farmer or you’re a shepherd, then you would take the 1st 10% of your crop or your, you know, your livestock, and then you would bring it to the temple, which was the local central, you know, essentially authority for the Jewish people, and they would, um, They would then as a part of that process, they would then feed the, the poor and the widows and, and care for, care for those in need in their society and so that was a form of recurring giving. Now did it happen every month on the 1st and 15th? No, it happened every season, turns out because when you’re an agricultural economy. Uh, that’s when that happens, but this idea of this pattern of, of giving, and I do think we’re seeing lots of areas of fundraising, including plan giving, including what I would call major gifts, you know, middle or major gifts that are seeing their own influences, um, in recurring giving, you know, I had one client, uh, a couple of months ago, we ran a campaign. For new, you know, recurring donors to the organization, uh, and they had one donor sign up for $5000 a month, and I said on their credit card, and they said, yep, somebody’s getting a lot of miles, right? Um, but that donor, that’s the, that was the comfortable giving level for them versus another donor that might be $50 a month or or $20 a month, right? And so I do think we’re seeing this form of philanthropy intersect other, you know, uh, areas of philanthropy as well, and it’s all kind of, um, I think working together to increase generosity. I agree, yup, absolutely. We are seeing it. OK, thank you. Now, let’s, let’s talk about some of the incentives uh uh uh that uh you can use to induce folks. To, uh, into sustainable recurring giving, tick off, tick off some of your your favorites from the book. Yeah, you know, and I think with incentives, especially when I write about those in light of the subscription economy, people think again the more the consumer side, and there are certainly incentives that are literal, you know, it’s what we would call a backend premium, you know, like. Uh, you know, I donate and I get a copy of the latest book or I get a, you know, a chotchke of some form, um, and those are a form of incentive, um, really incentives are about helping move the donor to that point of decision, um. So some other incentives that I like though, um, so, uh, classic fundraising, but an absolutely powerful incentive is a match or challenge grant for recurring giving. So not just a sort of we have an overall match, but no, we have a donor that has agreed to match every first gift or the first few months of every, every new recurring donor that signs up. It’s a win from a middle and major donor perspective because you can actually uh use that to say, hey, you can help us multiply giving. Um, but then it’s also a very motivational thing for donors. Um, I’m a big fan of, um, uh, multipliers depending on the organization. So like if some organizations do a lot of like gifts in kind or volunteer service where you can say every gift, uh, every dollar you send results in $30 or $10 worth of impact because of the donated goods we have or the, you know, the volunteer force that we operate, so multiplier. Um, I would call deadlines and goals candidly a form of incentive, you know, um, so I’m a big believer in saying, hey, by this date, because of this very specific need and this very specific reason, we’re looking for, you know, 150, uh, you know, monthly partners to help accomplish this, you know, this vision. Um, and there’s other, there’s others, but those are some of my favorites, um. Could you do the bounce back for me? Explain, explain the bounce back is a device, um, and I, you know, my first job was in direct mail, so it’s it’s a direct mail specific term, but, um, is really a device that you send that then the donor’s gonna return. So I, we used to do this um with some of the shelters we would work with, we would do a Thanksgiving place map. And we would allow, um, donors, we would send the placemats to donors and we would say we were going to use these when we serve the Thanksgiving meals, the week of Thanksgiving. Would you consider writing a note of encouragement to somebody who’s down, you know, um, and that’s like a really beautiful bounce back device because it’s like, yes, I would love to do that, um, for, for those listening that are familiar with the concept of child sponsorship, you know, letter writing is actually a form of a bounce back like I’m gonna write a letter to. To, you know, the, the person that I’m sponsoring, um, so it’s just some sort of involvement device, um, that engages the donor. It’s time for Tony’s Take 2. Thank you, Kate. Another tale from the gym. Uh, an uplifting one, not, not a whiny one like Mrs. Blood and Soil last week. Uplifting There’s a man who comes to the gym. I see him 3 times a week, probably. He comes in in a walker, and he needs help. He has a friend who comes with him each time the friend holds the door. They park the walker alongside the wall, and then the friend helps him over to the bike, stationary bike, and this guy does the stationary bike. He’s certainly 80 plus, uh, could, um, could be mid to at least even could be mid 80s, maybe even a little higher. But there he is Several times a week. Coming in his walker, but he makes the trip and he does the stationary bike for, I don’t know, a long time, you know, I’m not cocking the guy, but he doesn’t just do it for 5 minutes. And then there’s a woman who comes in, not as often as the man in the walker. Uh, she works on the treadmill. And she has supplemental oxygen. She has a cannula. In her nose, and she has a small oxygen bottle in a backpack. And she does the treadmill, and not also not for a short time. We’re not talking 5 minutes. So, Of course I don’t know these people because, uh, I, as we know, I keep to myself in the gym, just try to listen to others and do my business and, and depart. But if the man with the walker who needs help getting from the, from the where he leaves his walker over to the bike, and the woman with the supplemental oxygen, if they can be working out. We all can. They inspire me. They make me realize there’s no excuse when I don’t, you know, sometimes some mornings uh don’t really feel like doing it. I think of, uh, I think of these folks. So if they can do it, we all can. And that is Tony’s take too. OK. I think you should go talk to these people. I mean, I’m not a gym person, so I don’t know like the gym etiquette, but I mean if they don’t have like headphones on, I think you should go like introduce yourself, go talk to these people, see what their story is. You do, right? I don’t know. Uh, neither one of them owns uh headsets, I don’t think. They don’t, no, they’re not wearing AirPods or headsets or anything. I don’t know, you know, I like, I like to keep to myself in the gym, you know, because, especially the man, the man on the uh on the um on the bike, he does a lot of talking on the bike. Um, you know, it’s the chatty, it’s the chattiness I’m trying to avoid. I don’t know. Uncle Tony, you’re a little chatty yourself where you wanna be. Uh, when I want to be, yeah, I turn on the charm. I turned the charm on, but, uh, in the gym, I just, I turn it off, I keep to myself, you know, I’m still the New Yorker. I, it wasn’t, I lived in New York 15 years. I didn’t grow up there. I grew up in New Jersey, but close to New York City, you know, and these folks are, it’s, it’s North Carolina, small town. Different sensibilities, uh, and I’m making, uh, unfair rationalizations, uh, and, and, uh, stereotypes and rationalizations, but these things are important, stereotypes and rationalizations. Right. OK. Well for now. For now, you’d leave it. OK, thank you for now. We’ve got uu but loads more time. Here’s the rest of Great Value and Sustainable Giving with Dave Riley. Do you know the movie about Schmidt with Jack Nicholson? Well, I mean I know it, but I don’t know. He has a pen pal that he’s he’s he writes to this as his life is a spiral down after his wife dies, um, he writes to uh I think it’s, I’m pretty sure it’s. Yeah, so you hear him. Like probably 3 or 4 times in the movie, he’s, you hear a voiceover of him writing to uh to explain how his first world problems are uh spiraling. Well, there is, by the way, a principle in that story, and that is the power of human connection. Um, in fact, the first, um, uh, shelter that I ever worked with on a recurring giving program was called Union Rescue Mission in Los Angeles. I write about them in the book. And the first program I ever worked on, Tony was what they call a meal a day program. So it was this idea of if you give, it costs about, um, at that time with goods and service uh donated goods, it was like $1. $20 or something like that, a meal. Um, and so if you do the math, that’s about $35 a month, pay for $35 a month, you can join our quote unquote meal a day program. But Tony, a couple of things. Number one, it was a ton of work, and number two is it didn’t work very well, like it had a pretty low fulfillment rate. Um, these were in the old check writing days, by the way, that’s how long I’ve been in this industry, um. And um you’re gonna have a hard time dating because I’m 63, so you’re you look like 40 something, so you’re a way to go, yeah, 43. I’m right behind you. Um, the, but the, um, the reason I bring that up is because what one of the things we did that when we pivoted the program was we made it. About the actual guests at the at the mission. Now you had to be careful, uh, you know, privacy, all those sorts of things, but we made it about, um, this idea of you are helping to care for the women, children and families that are at the mission, which at that point was more than 50% of their guests. And Tony, when we shifted from being about meals, which are, if you think about it, inanimate objects that like, well, I guess if I don’t give this month a meal doesn’t happen, sort of abstraction to human connection. To the actual, this is, this is a story of a person and we may have changed their name and, and changed their photo for their privacy, but this is a story of a person you’ve actually directly made a connection with when we made that human connection, the fulfillment rates immediately went up by double digits, like literally overnight, we pivoted from meal a day to this representative sponsorship, and it was a huge lift in fulfillment because we made that human to human connection. So I think of Nicholson and his, uh, pen pal apparently. Yeah it was that human to human connection. How did you get to uh the Union rescue mission? The, the, it sounds like I just kind of hearing your voice that that work really moved you. How did you, how did you get into that work? Well, I grew up in Southern California was was really the part of the reason why it so moved me, and I remember, um, volunteering in high school at um at uh one of the missions downtown San Julian and San Pedro Street, right there, Skid Row, the original Skid Row, Los Angeles. And, and you say in the book that’s one of the most dangerous places in the country. Yeah, it’s one of the most difficult place to this day, it’s yeah, it’s it’s a difficult environment, um, and I’ve I slept at the mission downtown and, um, and served and uh so for me, my first realization that I could do um professionally. The kind of work that I, uh, feel like I’ve really am, am wired for the marketing and fundraising and business and, you know, that kind of stuff. Uh, Tony, the first time I realized that was when I, um, got a job at a fundraising agency. Um, this was 20 years ago, uh, called Master Works, and it was the realization that wait a second, I actually actually could have a career, professional, fulfilling career where I actually am able to help. Uh, causes, um, and the first client I ever had, Tony was Union Rescue mission. So it was, it was doubly, it was a double whammy. It was a personal passion of mine, having grown up in Southern California and having experienced that, but then also right at the point where I realized that my life’s work could be about helping with uh issues and situations like that. And so it’s just, it’s always been close to my heart. How old were you when you started the volunteer work? Oh, the first time I probably went down to Skid Row, I would, I would have been a teenager, um, yeah, early high school, you know, 1516, something like that. That’s not for 15 or 16 year old. What do you remember what was it, was it your parents or what moved you where most people are hanging out with their boyfriends and girlfriends. You know, I, um, it was a school related activity. It was a, it was a, uh, one of the missions down there that did like a shoe exchange, you know, donate, uh, lightly used shoes and then we pair them up with people and so I remember it was the one of the high school teachers that, um, basically said, hey, we’re getting on a bus, we’re going down, we’re going downtown. So then you’re like literally, I was, you know, sorting shoes and stuff, but then you’re helping, you know, uh, individuals find shoes that were great for them and their needs and I just, I still remember that today. And candidly, you know, I just wrote about this week the the question of are we teaching generosity to our children, um, Tony, because now fast forward however many years, 25, 30 years, uh, from that point. Um, I’m a dad, you know, I have two daughters, they’re ages 11 and 14, and I’m asking the question, like, am I, are they seeing me and my wife display generosity? Are they have are, are, are they having experiences that they’ll be able to tell 30 years from now that impact the way they choose to live out generosity in their own lives. Um, and so it’s been a more introspective time, uh, but yeah, thanks for asking that question. And how do you think you can motivate an 11 and 14 year old to, to, to be generous? Oh, I love that. Um, so the first thing, and I was just, this was very top of mind, so the first thing is to, um, make it visible. I think so much of generosity these days can be invisible, and I mean, this coming from a guy who literally just wrote a book about recurring giving, which is generally automated and You know, EFT or, you know, ACH preferably or credit card. And so the first thing that I think especially for us today is how do we make that visible, um, and Uh, that’s the first one. The, the second is, um, how do we, uh, the phrase I use is normalized generosity. I think, um, I think there’s, there can be, uh, an issue with kind of virtue signaling for lack of a better term, like, you know, you look at me, I’m so generous. However, I’ve been guilty of like not talking about my passion for generosity and I think that’s candidly just as. Not just as bad. I don’t know what the right phrase is, but I want, I want my kids, I want the people that are in my life to know that generosity is just a part of who I am. And so in our family, we, we want to do things that help people’s help our kids see that generosity is a way of life. It’s not like, oh, at the holidays, you know, it’s like, no, this is something that we do on an ongoing basis and we actually just had a conversation with our kids. Um, this last week, um, because a local charity, uh, actually it’s a national charity called Atlas Free. They do a lot with human trafficking. Um, our local church actually partnered with Atlas Free to do a, um, a, a program called Freedom February, and there was this idea of the phrase they use is do what you love to fight what you hate. And so do something that you’re passionate about, but essentially raise money to help fight human trafficking. And so my girls, um, on their own said, we wanna, you know, we want to do baked, you know, goods for, uh, for, for, uh, fighting human trafficking. And so my oldest made French macarons. We just spent some time in France, so she’s all about that. My youngest made cake pops and cookies and they sold them. And it was so cool. I have a picture on our website of them at the at the the the Sunday market, you know, selling their, their baked goods, and just the joy on their faces. Number one, they got to do what they love. They actually really do enjoy baking, but this idea of like we are making a difference and, um, I think that’s a memory, I hope, and I think they will, will stay with them for the rest of their lives and will maybe subliminally but will shape future decisions that they have around generosity and the joy of giving. No, you’re, you’re clearly thinking through it for your, for your children, um. Let’s go back to the book. Thank you for a little, uh, personal digression. Uh, we, uh, teased a couple of times, as I said, the, the value proposition. Now this is all part of your, uh, 76 or 7? No, he’s 77 steps, 7 steps to a thriving sustainer program, right? Uh, we don’t have time for all 7. You just, you gotta get the book because, uh, you know, we’re gonna, we’re just gonna, we had a couple. Uh, I would really like to talk about the crafting, uh, your, it’s your number 3, crafting. The an ongoing value proposition. So here’s where we’re explicitly defeating the Myth misunderstanding that this is transactional work, not at all, not at all. Uh, give us your, give us your thinking about, uh, you, you, you make it clear it has to be holistic, you know, ongoing quarter in the slot on, on the value proposition. Absolutely, yeah, you know, in in classic fundraising, you know, that we talk about the offer, you know, how, you know, how much will, you know, a dollar do kind of a deal, and this is an expansion of that. Um, and I do borrow a lot and quote in the book, the, the folks at Next after, they’ve done a lot of work on what I would call single gift value propositions, so like what is, what does it look like to create a value proposition for a single gift, but really it’s not a big stretch to say, OK, what does an ongoing value proposition look like? And so, Um, so a couple things. Number 11 of the mistakes I see organizations make is they use their single gift value proposition and they just say, hey, would you give us that monthly? So, Union rescue mission, classic example, the best single gift offer for the the mission was a meal and shelter, was this like, you know, very low on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, it was a survival need. It was very easy, easy math, you know, $1 could basically a little more than $1 could provide a meal. Um, but like I said, the meal a day program, which is equivalent equivalent of saying let’s take our best single gift offer and just ask for that monthly, was the meal a day program. The fulfillment rates were not good. Um, so, so the first thing is I would just say be careful not to just assume that your best fundraising offer that you might use for single gifts is the same as your best fundraising offer for ongoing recurring giving. So some things to look for as you um define your ongoing value proposition. Um, the first thing is just to be super clear on the problem your organization exists to solve. Then, The second step is to really list out what I call your value claims, and again, this is borrowed heavily from the folks at Next after, but what are those things that are um Uh, that, that That are unique to your organization that helps to answer the question of, yes, we are the solution for this particular problem. Um, and then what you want to do is you list out those value claims, then you, uh, prioritize those. And the best way I know to do that is to actually talk to donors. Um, and so I don’t mean that euphemistically, by the way, Tony, I mean actually talk to don’t like call them, set up interviews, talk to donors. I’ve done that a lot with organizations as a third party, um, but until you actually understand what really motivates the donor and fires their imagination. Then, um, you, you’re just going to be guessing, you know, so talk to donors, and then I would say make sure you answer the question, why is this necessary on an ongoing basis? Because again, unlike uh single gifts, this is a donation that will hopefully be made month after month, year after year, and so you want to have a very clear ongoing need and the ability to then affirm the donor on an ongoing basis as they get towards that need. You make the point too that you should try to target um survival, safety, belonging, those again, those basic sort of Maslow needs. I think every organization has the ability to communicate its need in those sort of lower level survival, safety and belonging needs. And I think, and this is especially for organizations that tend to be a little bit more maybe esoteric or a little more um. Philosophical, you know, we help equip people with knowledge, which is true, but I think the question to for me to that type of a charity is, how does what you do contribute to the survival, safety or belonging of the people that you serve? And um, it’s so important to articulate your need in those terms and not in these kind of like higher functioning self fulfillment. You know, kind of needs, it’s just, um, and that’s really a classic fundraising lesson, you know, the, the more we can talk about how what we’re doing contributes to the survival, safety or belonging of the people we serve, the more just candidly emotionally resonant, um, the program will be with donors. Which one of your other seven steps, uh, to a thriving program? What do you, I’m feeling, I’m feeling very altruistic. We’re talking about talking about your daughters and now what which one what do you want to talk about? Well, we’ve had really two. We’ve hit the first one which is to benchmark your program and by the way, we do have a a vet blueprint guide, um, that is free, uh, Tony, so if folks want to get that, they can get that at sustainablegiving.org. Um, but so the first one we had is a benchmark your program, which is just how many, how much, how many donors do you have today? How much are they giving, and, and that’s a great place to start, crafting an ongoing value proposition and then, you know, just to pick one, I would say, um. I would say let’s talk a little bit about growing your program because that’s hard for you to pick, it’s hard for you to pick a favorite. They’re all my children. Yeah, so the 6th step is really to grow your program and I want to just point out one, there’s a number of things we cover in that that chapter, but one of the things we talk about is sometimes organizations make the mistake of focusing on the wrong growth lever. Um, so there’s two ways to get more new donors into your recurring donor program. Number 1, acquisition, straight, the first gift is a recurring gift, and then number 2 is what I would call conversion, and that is they’re an existing donor, single gift owner, and that you’re and they are becoming choosing to give on a, on a recurring basis. And the mistake I see is that organizations will focus on the wrong one of those two. and so they will be, for example, an organization that really their offer and who they are is really um tuned to them being what I would call a conversion focused organization, where really the best, most significant um success they’re going to see is by acquiring donors as single gift owners and then converting them to recurring. Um, but the mistake I see is I come in and they say, well, we’re running, you know, um, I don’t want to knock a channel, we’re running ads, uh, specifically for acquiring new donors, but nobody’s responding, and it’s like, well, actually your offer and your program are much more conducive to getting a donor in the door and then converting them. And then vice versa, sometimes organizations are very conversion focused when they could be acquisition focused. And so in the book, I’d say, what are the, the, the basic um components of an offer that is more conducive to acquisition. So just for example, um if it’s a highly visible need, very clear solution. Um, and it’s got a very clear specific price point and it’s widely understood. So, uh, for example, uh, not a client, but an organization I’ve respected over the years, Operation Smile. Uh, one of the things they do life saving surgeries, operations, certainly cleft palate, uh, surgeries. And it costs about, I think it was $270 to do a surgery. That’s a perfect acquisition offer because it’s super visible. Like you can literally, photos and video can tell the story of Operation Smile without doing anything else. It’s a very clear solution. We do these surgeries, very specific, you know, need, uh, an offer amount, $270 to a surgery, and that’s like a slam dunk for acquisition. Um, but a lot of organizations, and I would say a majority are more their uh their need, the need is takes a little explaining, um, the offer is not as clear and so it’s more about how do we get donors into the, the front door, giving that first gift and then. Move them candidly within 30 to 60 days, typically to then giving a monthly gift or or a recurring gift. And so that’s just one of the the levers and I write about that in the book of how do you know which one you should maybe uh uh put more emphasis in. You make the point in the book about the 30 to 60 day period. That’s the, that’s the period where people are most likely to convert. You want to flush it out a little bit? Yeah, it’s, it’s the, you know, people ask me when is the most likely time for a new, new single gift owner to convert, and we’ve already answered it, but it’s really right away. It’s that 1st 30, 60 days and I don’t know exactly why I have some hypotheses, you know, I think one of the reasons is that is the point in time when it’s the most fresh to that donor. They’ve made an initial decision to give a gift. Um, and by the way, this is a beautiful thing when you do have crisis type fundraising or disaster funding because those have classically been the most difficult donors to. Get to give a second gift. Um, but thanks to the subscription economy, we are all much more wired to be, uh, willing to do that and so. Um, you have the opportunity to basically within that 1st, 60 days to say, uh, basically two things affirm and invite, affirm that gift, you have made a difference. Thank you so much. You are the type of person that cares deeply about this cause, so you’re affirming, affirming, inferring, but you’re also very directly and indirectly inviting them to stand with the organization on an ongoing basis. And when I do a curve of um when people are most likely to uh convert, the highest time is always in that 1st 30 to 60 days, and then it falls candidly off a cliff for a while and then about a year later it might bump up again. So I’m not saying you can’t get people to convert to monthly giving on an ongoing basis, but that first introduction is, is really one of the most critical windows to uh to do that. You have a little advice on uh naming your sustainer program that that struck me because I, I have a sort of contrary opinion about naming, uh, what I don’t like legacy society, you know, plan giving recognition societies like stay away from legacy and heritage, please. There’s like ubiquitous, it could be anywhere, it could be any charity anywhere leg the legacy society, but share your advice about naming the recurring giving program. I think the short version is, um, and I think I opened that chapter with the Shakespeare quote, you know, um, you know, what a rose by a name, smells sweet, right? But I do think having a name meaning something that you can refer to as essentially a proper noun of the program is helpful because then when you’re referring to it in communications or you’re referring to them, the recurring donor, there’s like the shorthand, there’s the name, where a blank. I think it does create belonging. Um, but, and I outlined in the in the uh chapter on designing your program, really there’s two broad ways to do that, and I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer here, but one way is what I would call descriptive naming and so that’s like, um, basically it’s our, uh, friends of the family program where you’re literally describing the program, and then there’s what I would call fanciful naming. Um, and that is where it might be more of a metaphor, you know, like Charity Water has the spring, right? Um, and I give some examples of programs in that chapter, uh, and I wouldn’t prescribe one way or the other, um, fanciful or descriptive, uh, but I would say having a name that you can refer to is actually really helpful and, um, and, and a piece of the puzzle. Beautiful, thank you. And so we still have several minutes together, but I kind of like to close on your, your thoughts about the future. That’s your last chapter in the book, the future of sustain or giving, trends you’re seeing. Uh, in terms of mindset, yeah, you know, it’s one of the things that really caused me a lot of consternation in the first year, uh, since of saying I think I should write a book was. These things are changing, right? So how do you, how do you write a book that is then, um, you know, going to stand some test of time? And I will say, uh, those of you that are fundraisers, you know, there’s there’s some real timeless fundraising principles in the book, and so it’s not just certainly not a fad book, uh, or at least that’s not the goal. But I did feel like it would, I would be very remiss to not um include a section in the book on how recurring giving is continuing to change. And so I break that into a couple of different categories. Um, I talk about, um, where what people might think of in terms of technology and how technology is continuing to shift. Um, you know, there was a, there was a comment you made earlier that I was thinking about, you know, in terms of how people are choosing to give, um, I can’t remember offhand, but the, the, the reality is that um technology is shifting. Um, I think I saw a stat the other day, more than 50%, I don’t remember the exact percentage. Of, of, uh, consumers today prefer to use what is called a digital wallet, right? So that’s the thing where I double click on my phone, um, and I can choose my Apple credit card or my whatever Bank of America credit card. And so, you know, things like, um, that the charity I just mentioned that my daughters um did a fundraiser for Alice Free, I was able to You know, standing at the bake sale, you know, actually go in and make a make a gift and use a digital wallet. That’s a big deal when you’re when you’re not on a computer and I don’t have my credit card handy or whatever. So I do, I do have a chapter on technological advancement. I have a chapter on how AI is actually enabling um some capabilities around. Uh, recurring giving I think is really powerful. Um, I do think the donor experience will continue to evolve. You mentioned the one click checkout. I still don’t think most nonprofits have the equivalent of a one click checkout, so I write about that. Um, and then, um, I write about some, some, uh, innovative ways that organizations are thinking about financing, um, recurring giving. Uh, I’ll give you one simple example because that sounds maybe, uh, pretty high level. Um, some of the most innovative organizations I’ve seen have basically, uh, created a system by which they can reinvest in their recurring giving program from new donors. So they basically talk to their board and they say what we want to do is we bring in 10 thousands or millions of dollars a year. We want to reinvest the first. 10 months of value from any new recurring donor, um, to then grow the program and so what it ends up doing is it basically creates a snowball effect where instead of just Uh, you know, investing whatever the number is, um, every month in a straight line, which creates, by definition, linear growth, like, oh yay, you know, it’s growing. When you double down that investment and double down and double down, you essentially get a compounding curve and so I know of organizations that have grown, um. Double and triple digits because they are, uh, basically reinvesting. They understand the value of a new recurring donor and they’re reinvesting that in. And so that’s not very common today. I don’t see that a lot, but where I do see it, I see really explosive growth and so I wanted to shine a light on some of those trends. And where would you reinvest in in promotion, marketing? Technology, well, it depends on what your growth engine is, um, so for some folks, if they’re more of an acquisition oriented, uh, institution, then acquisition versus do more, yeah, do more, you know, face to face or whatever, um, versus an organization that might be more conversion oriented, it might be like, actually, we need to invest more in our single gift acquisition because we know that’s what fuels the funnel for for recurring. And just generally too, you, you anticipate a sustainer first mindset. Yeah, that’s the, that’s the, I don’t see that um completely across the board, but I couldn’t come away and not see that the some of uh many of I would say the fastest growing charities today have this sustainer first mindset and they either have had that for a long time, you think of organizations like the Compassion, International or World Vision, they’ve had that for a long time. Or, um, Charity Water is a more modern equivalent where they’ve had it for, you know, 89 years and that’s created significant growth, and then now they are, um, sort of diversifying their focus, but is it is this kind of this sustainer first mindset, at least for a significant period of time that seems to have been really correlated with rapid growth. The book is the rise of sustainable giving how the subscription economy is transforming recurring Giv, what nonprofits can do to benefit. Uh, person who wrote it is right here in case you, you probably put those two things together by now. Dave Raley, you’ll find him on LinkedIn, you’ll find the book plus the free resources. At sustainablegiving.org. Dave, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing and, and you have my good wishes for your, your daughter’s philanthropy. Oh, thank you. Well, and I, I hope for, for the rest of us, you know, that’s just it’s a deep passion and I do think that sustainable giving is a part of that. So thank you, thank you for investing the time and reading that book and drawing out those insights and, and, uh, yeah, I’m just, I’m just really uh hopeful for uh for our our sector. Next week, mental wellness amid the political chaos. If you missed any part of this week’s show, I beseech you. Find it at Tony Martignetti.com. We’re sponsored by DonorBox. Outdated donation forms blocking your supporters’ generosity. Donor Box, fast, flexible, and friendly fundraising forms for your nonprofit, DonorBox.org. I love that alliteration. Our creative producer is Claire Meyerhoff. I’m your associate producer Kate Martignetti. The show’s social media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein. Thank you for that affirmation, Scotty. Be with us next week for nonprofit radio, big nonprofit ideas for the other 95%. Go out and be great.

Nonprofit Radio for August 8, 2014: Grow Your Sustainer Program & Friends With Benefits

Big Nonprofit Ideas for the Other 95%

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Nicola Bach & Chas Offutt: Grow Your Sustainer Program

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With Nicola Bach  and Chas Offutt at bbcon

I met Nicola Bach and Chas Offutt at Blackbaud’s bbcon conference last year. They have strategies to build your recurring donors and convert web donors to sustainers. Nicola is senior fundraising analyst at Blackbaud and Chas is lead consultant for their donor engagement team.

 

 

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Gene Takagi: Friends With Benefits

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Gene Takagi continues our chat (from the 200th show) on partnerships, joint ventures and other friendly arrangements that can be enormously beneficial to your nonprofit until they’re not. What can you get into and how do you protect yourself? Gene is our legal contributor and principal of NEO, the Nonprofit & Exempt Organizations Law Group. 

 

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Dahna hello and welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host. It feels great to be back in the studio. Oh, and i’m glad you’re with me. I develop a bees or if i came to learn that you had missed today’s show, grow your sustainers program i met nichola bach and chazz office at blackbaud bb con conference last year. They have strategies to build your recurring donors and convert web donors to sustainers nikola is senior fund-raising analyst at blackbaud, and chazz is lead consultant for their donor engagement team. Also friends with benefits. Jean takagi continues our chat from the two hundredth show, which was terrific show on partnerships, joint ventures and other friendly arrangements that can be enormously beneficial to your non-profit until they’re not, what can you get into and how do you protect yourself? Jean is our legal contributor and principle of neo the non-profit and exempt organizations law group on tony’s take two non-profit radio on exit coach radio we’re sponsored by generosity siri’s they host multi charity five k runs and walks. I’m very pleased to give you this interview from bb con last year on your sustainers program welcome to tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty thirteen we’re outside washington dc and national harbor, maryland at the gaylord convention center. My guests are nikola bach on chazz office, they’re both with blackbaud nikola is senior fund-raising analyst and chazz is lead consultant for the donor engagement team. Nicholas says welcome. Thank you be here, it’s a pleasure to have you you’re seminar topic is keys to success for growing a sustainer program jazz why is this sustainers program import? Well, tony, i think the growth in sustainers campaign ignored. I think we’re seeing year every year fund-raising growth large part of online revenue has been attributed to sustainers growth, in fact, two thousand twelve or two thousand eleven sustainers growth contributed twenty seven percent compared to previous year, which is low twenties. Okay, so what what what is the message that you think for non-profits i think largely there’s ah, an investment being made by non-profits to really grow and extend their program, investing into the monthly donors as faras dedicated communication treatment, cultivation tactics actually engage those individuals and the non-profit beyond sort of one time. Donation so there’s a real engagement opportunity for non-profits to have donorsearch vest in the program invest in an organization successive organization, and we’re talking about recruiting these donors either online or more traditional channels, right? Absolutely across the board. Okay, nikola, how would you like to introduce this? Well, i think it’s, the biggest growth area for non-profits presently, in the face of declining overall file counts and declining new donors, kant’s the pace of growth of revenue from sustaining donors has increased something like forty three percent over the last four years, and that growth has been ableto upset and compensate for the lack of growth in new single donors. Eso it’s an incredibly important portion of the active donor file what do we know about the loyalty? How likely or unlikely it is that someone is going to drop out of there there. Ah, sustaining e-giving well, for new donors, what we’ve seen on the median is for single gift owners who were new in eleven, twenty nine percent came back and gave a single gift in two thousand twelve, compared to about forty five percent of new sustainers returning so that thirteen we look at the thirteenth month retention rate do they give beyond that first year and stick into the next year? S o that’s for new donors and it gets even more exponentially better from multiyear donors who have given loyally for two consecutive years three, two, four and five plus additional years of giving are very strong indicators for continued yes, because e-giving exact especially their sustainers okay, yeah, the new donors that’s do we know whether that varies by charitable mission or or fund-raising revenue? Yes, it does very can very about organization and mission, and it also varies very much which has alluded to it. Bye bye. Source. So male versus online versus direct response. Television versus street versus radio in certain ads, all those air opportunities to recruit sustaining givers. And they those channels all generate different kinds of sustainers okay, what are some of the better times and better methods? Yeah, face-to-face can be problematic. You have that opportunity. Please sign up in the street and it’s hard to replicate that experience later on. However, if you’re able to keep them beyond the first four months, they’ll tend to stay with you. Dear tv can be very strong radio unfortunately, you said d r tv sorry, direct response to yeah, yeah drug in jail on tony martin and non-profit radio now in your eyes, a probation coming fairly easily, parole roll comes fairly easily. Go ahead. My apologies direct response, yes also tends to generate pretty sticky donors over the long term. What we’ve seen with radio and this is the global trends radio cast, a wide net and unfortunate doesn’t have the stickiest net as direct response television or even online. Okay, jazz, can you talk to some of the cuts across charitable missions? Absolutely. I think we see growth across all all verticals are all anti verticals, but i think they, as nikola pointed out that the growth is attributed or can be attributed multiple channels was which is a indicator of program maturity. I think, for organizations that are really just starting, i mean, what the highest return the first places look your own website, how are you converting people online? What’s the benefit set that’s being associated with? He asked, and how are you maximizing that channel, which is more or less free or cheaper? A lot cheaper. So the converting website donors to monthly being sort of a hyre retention rate now, as a program matures and grows, i think that’s where the opportunity is nikola mentioned is really identifying what those with the acquisition sources in the r o i within this acquisition be so important to the paid and organic approach, too sustainers acquisition, you mentioned the benefits set, how do we know what types of benefits we ought to be offering? Well, i think the first of all, i’m independent organisation, i guess that’s the easy way, easy way out, but, you know, what’s unique to that particular program, you know, i think that we see it is a lot of opportunities where a lot of organization see it is an opportunity from a designated giving standpoint. So for example, i think of pita pita, very it’s, very strong advocacy program. So they have a dozen e-giving program around investigations and rescue and it’s purely driven toward their advocates, too, with a stronger messaging, which is mohr action oriented. Oh, and two associate wth e-giving value to the particular action or impact within the program itself. So it’s a real diversification able to diversify spread e-giving opportunity for an organisation within core audience subsets okay? And nikola, we’re talking about sustainers e-giving at all different kinds of levels to so what jazz is referring to the benefits that i mean that’s obviously got a vary by the by the level at which the person is is giving. Yeah, i think that also varies by organization some organizations to run into other giving clubs at certain levels. So whether you’re giving cumulatively, for example, five hundred dollars, whether that’s in monthly instalments or one ofthe gift that may make you eligible for a leadership circle type thing, it’s organizations have to evaluate what is the best placement of a given donor donors interest, you know, many donors like the kind of engagement that month e-giving affords them. Some organizations are very good about reporting back about what what’s happening in the field, for example, lots of relief organizations that are working in syria right now, i’ll have the opportunity to report back on their work in a really, really life, real time kind of way and as a sustainers you can really see and feel the impact your monthly gift actually has there’s a lot of back end infrastructure, chazz, that has to be built in to have sustainers program, whether it’s, whether the channel you acquired them through his traditional or online, you need to have back office processes for thinking and handling. I just changes credit card changes, credit card explorations, talk about the how you set those up. What was your advice about that? The back office? Sure, i think that’s a great question, because infrastructure being a big part of sustainers, of course, and how are you enabling a program and setting up for success? You know, many organizations lease here today and, of course, have a database of record andan online and online offering, and so setting up those programs in which that they are promoting a sustainers metoo together, meaning a program that is integrated across all channels being sort of the key, of course, but ensuring that the management of the sustainers audience ahead of time is very is planned out. I think that’s a big thing is planning out in advance. You know how we’ll be treated? How will it be communicated? Tio, how are they in most cases, be separated from the main stream within the organization? I’m like nikola mentioned, i think. Major donors being a big a big indicator because major dahna programs are separate a large part sustainers were seeing a greater emphasis around separating sustainers from your everyday donors because there’s a higher level engagement, they’re advocates their volunteers there, major donors potentially and so planning in advance, having that strategy in place, having that road map, you know, to create sustainers program that is acknowledging sustainers grown sustainers and then allowing that maturity teo to to develop around payed acquisition, organic acquisition, whatever the growth in tactics may be at the same time there is integration the way nikola was describing bringing sustaining donors into the e-giving circles. So so there’s there’s some segregation, treating them especially the way you’re describing, you know, benign segregation, you know, nothing, nothing, nothing hurtful, but seeing them special, but then also bring them into the organization in terms of his nickel was saying that the recognition. Okay, so, you know, i think it just add to that everything sustainers ahs. Ah whole. I mean it’s it’s. The great payment plan means a layaway plan. So, it’s, you know, if you have a donor that gives twice a year. Twenty five dollars. You know, what we see is generally ten dollars, per month is a very logical next step. Ten dollars, per month in which is one hundred twenty dollars, per year. Of course, that is a greater value to the organization. So what can you identify? So your various levels and grow grow, the donor based e-giving ending. Doing good ending. You’re listening to the talking alternate network duitz waiting to get into thinking. Cubine this’s, the cook, said, wear hosting part of my french new york city, or guests come from all over the world, from mali to new caledonia, from paris to keep back. French is coming language. Yes, they all come from different cultures, background or countries, and it common desires to make new york they’re home. Listen to them, shed their story. Join us. Pardon my french new york city every monday from one to two p, m. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Okay, let’s, start to jazz let’s stay with you and stuff to get into some details about what what are our first steps to building sustainers program? We don’t we don’t, we don’t currently have, you know, i think the first step is courses defining what this is data program is the mission objective of sustainers program how will complement and support your organization? So defining the benefits set could very well include not only the tangible but intangibles where benefits associate with sustainers program for donorsearch could be, you know, financial stability that i’m providing my monthly donation to allow for the organisation respond to catastrophes around the world. Or nikola mentioned the syria example that’s very topical in the sense that my dollars air helping support that organization then and they’re so defining it being very important. And then also, i think branding isn’t a essential component that as well so is their name for your program, you know, champions, you know, legacy similar attack, this we see from a major donor development, but really creating the uniqueness within the program being a kind of core place to start. How do we identify let’s? Go to your nicholas. The right prospects for our sustainers giving program we’ll hopefully you’re acquiring them directly already that’s the fastest pace of growth in terms of growing the volume of sustainers you have so your first initial contact with the prospect, in my opinion, should be a sustaining asked this come complementary with that converting existing donorsearch yeah, fifty dollars a year under twenty how do you know identify who? The blood? Yeah, great loyalty in your file heidtke if frequencies coupled with that and also this is always kind of a scary one, but the people who respond to your first renewal a great prospects for sustainers giving oh, interesting. We know that we know that through analytics, i’m sure exactly what you think is going on. What’s the brother. They’re excited to be a part of the organization in a monetary aspect and want to continue that kind of committed giving. You do have to re budget the rest of your renewals accordingly that you’ve you know, siphon them off and else where’s the budget cut budget with caution, but they are raising their hand proactively early. They’re being asked on that the early nous, the recency of that makes a difference and just a chazz this point, i think the other thing we emphasize is education. You can’t just dive headlong into sustainers program and expect it to be a sensation overnight, so it really takes educating everyone from the interns, helping you answer the phones. Why is month e-giving an important part of your e-giving conversation to the director of the board? Everyone needs to be on the same page with regard to what does it mean? This kind of ongoing, sustained, committed e-giving we’re asking of our donors. And what does it mean for organization wise it important? Especially when it’s brand new exactly. I’ve never heard of this sustainers program this this legacy e-giving what is it and okay? And what’s my r a y? Is it going to be this campaign? Well, it’s not really a campaign view. It’s not talking about the spring appeal december a year and appeal it’s smaller monthly gifts typically in ten, fifteen, twenty dollars and if you’re just looking at it every quarter, every two quarters, that doesn’t look like a very sensible investment. So you look at the annual giving and beyond, okay, and then just as i turned, i think, a ce faras looking at the file of being a true indicator of performance and sort of prospects for sustaining program, but also looking at sort of already existing engagement and thinking about who was already involved in the organization. Volunteers advocates, as i mentioned, you know, those are individuals, major donors, there’s air, all individuals that are already invested in organization, and so the benefits set helps compliment and upgrade those potential individuals too deep in the royalty or deep in the engagement organization. How long should it be before we ask someone toe upgrade their sustainers e-giving we just had a session with international justice mission michelle at i j m had their sustainers upgrade programs eighteen months, so after twelve months on file, they’ll then go through a very well coordinated a great campaign toe upgrade those twelve months sustainers and then try again were work again eighteen months for those that upgraded okay on do we know analytically whether that’s, whether that’s, that’s the right time frame well, we have data that compare it’s been a very successful model for them. They are more than four percent of their sustainers an upgrade with a average gift amount about thirty two dollars on top of the sustainers monthly gift. Okay, so a four percent upgrade annually is considered successful. Consider it. We’re going i don’t have a very successful but the most important thing there too is also their active communication with the sustainers i think that open dialogue, that treatment as well as we mentioned and talked about the very port part of the process. So it’s not just a one upgrade campaign in september. It’s it’s, the program that’s in place throughout the year to cultivate those donors to identify you know who are how are they engaged? How do they want to be communicated, tio? And then using a a coordinated effort throughout our recording effort at a cz certain pierre to time certain peer-to-peer day year to really upgrade and make a substantial impact in the sustainers program? Do we know chazz how what the impact is on outcomes sustainability of the program when people are thanked at different intervals? No, should they get a monthly thank you every time? There’s a monthly gift? Should i get a semi annual annual way? Have any data that compares different the frequencies? Of thanks. Well, i think that the state of best practices always ended your receipt. And in a common tact, i think many organizations will use it at your end since we’re talking about your it’s it’s urine time a year at least, is that thirteen gift and so thinking about that from sustainers sustainers segment at your inn to invite. Not only think them with a donor receipt, but i have a special appeal to the sustainers make a thirteenth gift in december. Okay, so that’s about that’s the best practices is the year end. Well, there’s a urine, but you’re in receipt. Yes, to your question. Okay, okay. So unwise to be sending a thank you. I mean, i’ve heard this question among non-profits that either i don’t know if they’re doing sustainers programs are contemplating, but how often should we think it is a gift once a month. So i sent a letter every month and there’s the fear that if you do that, you remind them that they’re giving every month and you worried that they’re going to cancel. And this question came up in our session as well, and i think to chazz is point. Most organizations are doing the text receipt thank you, and then keeping their sustaining donors abreast of activities with the organization and giving them other opportunities throughout the year to make additional donations beyond the year end appeals. And to that, i think you mean the mentality or that the thinking has been, you know, setting forget i think we’re moving away from that a little bit instead of not to be afraid of communicating to sustainers not to be afraid that if you remind them they’re giving you, they’re going to cancel its really the other way is what are you doing to engage them in the mission in the program throughout the year, remind them of their impact and actually engage them and to become mohr involved in the work that you do? So they’re our responders, i think, to the receipt in the aspect of it, their monthly all responding sleeps with an online transaction, but the end of year receipt we see generally beings were the core focus from the benefits set that is a benefit for a donor wrap up all the year, giving in one email, one letter, whatever it may be for tax. Purposes, okay? And that also has implications for upgrades. If you’re not keeping someone engaged, then the twelve month ask for the upgrade is going to be out of the blue right? Absolutely seems nonsensical, and i actually think that sustained giving the e-giving behavior of giving every month is the perfect engagement tool for millennials that is, millennials, i think, are already engaging in a charitable way, whether it’s through kickstarter, volunteering and they want to have that community immediacy feel toe what their actions are, and i think sustaining giving with the appropriate feedback loop to the sustainer is a perfect way to get those younger donors the millennials a thirty year olds the ones were all vying for. They’re going to replace that very generous world war two generation that we’re so desperate, tio supplement i think that lots of organizations could benefit from having that sustainers conversation with millennials generation, we still have some time left. What else? Nickel if you want to say about those sustainers program, i think if you’re going to do it, go all in, commit to it one hundred percent and look at it in the long term it’s not going. To stay overnight to see yeah it’s, not an overnight sensation. It’s a sustainable way of giving it’s a sustained way of giving and your entire organisation from the reception is to a man who makes the decisions or the woman needs to be bought in that this is the way to give. And i think that’s the most important thing when you approach a sustainers program because it can seem like small numbers and you’re not really making a dent where you got that big appeal with single one off gifts feels fabulous, but it’s not that’s, not a sustainable way of raising money. In my opinion. Okay, jazz, what else? What else did not that we still have some time? What else didn’t i asked? One of the biggest things we’re seeing emerging trend right now is organizations going to default sustainers ask mean instead of a one time sustainers asked meaning tony, great to meet you. Consider making one time donation. It’s tony, we consider being a monthly donor to this programme and so default ass is put in the front for first foot forward is sustainers now that is emergency numbers and organizations really investing in. That practice, but we looked at us compared to australia, uk, canada where sustaining giving is, you know, thirty, thirty five percent of philanthropy that’s the first ask that those countries in the countries outside the u s i already have a very interesting so we’ve got a long way to go. We’re seeing significant growth, but it’s going it requires investment organizations, requires commitment and planning in advance, but there’s, good signs, good trends and good growth to date. All right, now the the commitment for this has got to start at the top clearly, i mean, i don’t think this could start with the chief development officer think there needs to be sort of a cultural mindset that sustainable sustainers e-giving is sustainable and important for our future and that’s gotta come from those ceo it’s gonna be adopted. I mean, across the organization there’s, no doubt about that, i think, adopted and then put forth as faras priority and how on organizations going to do that and define it to find the benefits to find the program and support of the mission zoho okay, everyone replies, chances point the rest of the world really is this is the way of giving this is very interesting. So yeah, it’s the europeans, they’re doing this a cz their their initial ask their default over a long time, and the banking structure has a large parts or play in that because all those of us where europeans that’s, how you pay everything is bialik trump, elektronik funds transfer you to be a little gyro, but most bills, most anything you interact with used have to go to the post office to make those payments and everything’s on lines it’s a real mindset that’s just how you give it’s a cultural mindset in many european and latin american countries as well, and i think that, you know, culture and banking infrastructure have a big role to play, and we’re moving that way, but fund-raising practices also have a big role to play, so we’ve been taught that the one ofthe gift is king and that’s the way to to solicit donors, and i think we as fundraisers need to make that mental shift as well. Really it’s sustained giving because the benefits to the organization that you’re trying to help our so much greater yeah, it’s a it’s a hundred degrees from where we are absolute and there’s evidence that the sustainer donors will become, or can can, can become the major one off one ofthe donorsearch absolute when there may be a cause for a campaign where the the monthly is not goingto be sufficient well, and that and that’s a great point, because i think the overall and some of the data nodes and nikolai presented sustainers value is far greater than organizations extends beyond the monthly contribution. I mean, as we mentioned, that the volunteerism but just think that an advocacy, but just the financial impact on this one off campaigns throughout the year, it becomes sort of a trademark of sort of ah donorsearch port, but then those opportunities of further support i’m should not be neglected because that value increases tremendously for unfortunately catastrophes that happened or certain special projects throughout the year. Our year end there’s air all opportunities to talk to your sustainers as sustainers with that impact potential, you know, it’s very interesting. I do plan e-giving consulting and i have for about sixteen years, and there are parallels between what we say about people who include the organization in their will or have a charitable gift annuity where they’re getting regular income typically is quarterly from the organization, and those can lead to larger hyre individual gif ts increased annual giving so there’s a parallel because of this ongoing, sustaining relationships mean somebody in somebody who has the organization in their will they’re they’re committed for life. If you want to continue that arrangement and the engagement levels like volunteerism, like you’re saying, jack, do increase pretty frequently write interesting, interesting parallel between two very different types of giving state vs absolute sustainers through different participation, very different, but the outcomes on the relationships are really interesting parallels. Exactly. Thanks so much. Thanks for sharing. You’re interesting for me. Thank you very much. Nikola bok is senior fund-raising analyst for blackbaud chazz office is lead consultant for the donor engagement team at blackbaud i thank you both very much. Thank you durney been a real pleasure. Tony martignetti non-profit radio coverage of bb khan twenty thirteen and i thank you very much for listening. Time for live listener love. Hello, new bern, north carolina. Beverly mass. Absecon, new jersey. I know i said that, right? A lot of people think it’s abscond. But i know it’s, absecon, new jersey on the jersey shore love it! Atlanta, georgia and cummings, georgia live listener love out to everyone there and brooklyn, new york. Thank you, brooklyn. Nice to have you nice and close. I appreciate that we could go abroad a little bit federal argentina, federal, argentina welcome tokyo and sendai, japan. Konnichiwa, jeddah, saudi arabia love to have you hope you come back. General, we haven’t seen you before. I don’t think ukraine, you’re in our thoughts ukraine, you’ve been with us before. Glad you’re with us again live listener love out there and also seoul, south korea, on your haserot always appreciate the koreans checking in thank you very much. Generosity siri’s, they host multi charity peer-to-peer five k runs and walks multi charity means that you can have an event with a small number of runners and walkers because together with the other charities that are in the same event, there’s hundreds of runners and walkers. If you happen to be using this summer time to plan your fall fund-raising or beyond, then ah, why don’t you speak to generosity? Siri’s they’ve got runs walks coming up in new jersey, miami atlanta, new york city, philadelphia and toronto. It might make sense for you. Talk to dave lynn he’s the ceo. Please tell him that you’re from non-profit radio and you can reach dave lynn at seven one eight five o six. Nine triple seven or on the web generosity siri’s dot com very grateful for their sponsorship. Please check them out. The table’s got turned a couple weeks ago and i was interviewed on another show was bill blacks exit coach, radio it was fun to sit back and just answer questions and just yammer along and i don’t have to worry about watching the clock or anything like that was quite a pleasure. I see how easy the guests have it. Andi no, jean takagi is listening. So i thank you very much. Bill black for having me on your show. I talked about the takeaways that i’ve learned from over two hundred non-profit radio shows and the audio and video that i have are on my site at tony martignetti dot com, you’ll find a listening length to the exit coach radio interview i did with him, and that is tony’s take two for friday eighth of august. Thirty first show of the year. Jim takagi hello. Hi, tony. How are you? I’m doing very well. Gina’s are managing attorney at neo non-profit and exempt organizations law group in san francisco. He edits the popular non-profit law blawg dot com and on twitter he’s at ji tech. Jean, i’m doing very well glad to have you back. It’s a pleasure to be back, tony. Thank you. We’re going to continue our conversation from a couple weeks ago, the two hundredth show when we were talking about partnerships, i call them friendships, you know, friend, i said friends with benefits, but partnerships and things like that, and, uh and how we’re going to protect ourselves. You and i talked a little about who we might partner with. Maybe we can say a little more about that. Sure, you know, i think we teased out a little bit the idea of non-profits collaborating with one another and how we’re pushed by different agencies and thunders and maybe the public in our stakeholders teo, engage in more collaborations, teo further our missions and how we choose those partners i think is very important and making sure that we understand who we’re working with what their skills on dh strengths are and what their weaknesses are and how we might engage together. Synergistically, i think all of those things you want to bet a little before you develop some sort of legal relationship with them. Yeah, and i would think the board has a role in this because if there is going to be illegal agreement between them and we’ll talk about whether that’s appropriate or not. But if if if we’re going to go to that level than the board needs to be involved in this process, too, i think when, when, particularly when the relationship is going to be a substantial one that’s true. Now, if it’s going to just be a one off, you know, one event, you provide the drinks and we’ll provide the food. Okay, then? Yeah, we don’t worry about the board there, but for if we’re goingto have this joint fundraiser that’s going to take three months to prepare ah, and had been involved in a big place that we have to rent out and insurance and making sure that we get adequate participation and funding and we rely on other people to show up. Those are the types of things where the board may want to get involved, especially in the first time relationship, and after we’ve found a partner or partners that that maybe working with us, we want to know whether we should, how we should document our relationship. And and we talked a little about the mou, the memo of understanding versus the contract, right? And, you know, i’m not the biggest fan of the m o you, joe, you know, i think i miss you. Okay? Okay, well, how is that? Well, i think and, you know, speaking as a lawyer and you roll their eyes a little bit that’s okay? The mou really is intended to be an unenforceable documents so it’s like yes, you do this and we’ll do that. If it’s a joint fund raiser, you go ahead and rent the revenue will go ahead and get the entertainment on dh will provide the educational materials now in an mou that’s not maybe always specified, but we don’t say well, what happens if you don’t, you know, rent the venue if you didn’t get adequate insurance for it or if we didn’t market right? And where we didn’t get the educational materials out, so we can’t really deliver our message the way we wanted to. And now it may be one party spot more than the others and what happens in that case if it’s an mou that’s not intended to be enforceable? Well, then, i guess it’s just a broken trust and you know, everybody’s on their own after that. But if you intend fur, some of it to be enforceable, you know, sometimes you want to get that language in there and make sure that it’s understood that it’s an agreement. A lot of times i see people who hedge on this and they and they have this enforceable agreement, but they call it an mou, and even government agencies do that that’s a little pet peeve of mine it just to make sure that both parties are on the same page. Is it enforceable? What happens if the other party doesn’t live up to their agreements? And are we clear about what you’re supposed to do? This is what we’re supposed to do now. We should have an attorney draft this it’s going to be an enforceable contract, which is what your preferences i mean, that needs to be drafted by an attorney? Well, i think the at least the initial draft, if you enter into the same type of relationships multiple occasions, you may not need the attorney to bet every single time, particularly if it’s smaller deal, but yes, generally speaking, i think you’re right, you do want an attorney to at least review ah, the written agreement, whatever you call it, whether you call it an mou or not, you want an attorney toe review that and maybe question you on challenge you on some of those points to make sure that everybody is clear about what their respective obligations and responsibilities are and what they can expect reasonably from the other party, because there are elements of a contract that are based in state law that make a writing into a contract and make it enforceable or not. And so if those elements aren’t there, you might think you have a contract, but it wasn’t prepared, or at least reviewed by an attorney probably should be prepared, i think. And you may think you have a contract, but you don’t. Yeah, or or you may be just missing a whole. Bunch of things like, when does the contract? And there are a lot of times that they’re just open ended contracts and you don’t want the other party coming up to you, like two years after you last talked with each other and saying, hey, you didn’t live up to this end of your bargain last week, right? All right, okay. All right. So, it’s, a lot of implications around the contract mean, its’s it’s an art drafting these and making sure that they are, in fact, enforceable under the state law where they’re going to be where they’re going to be judged. Yeah, and i think it also is an opportunity for you for you to just get mutually gets a mutual understanding of what your respective roles are, because sometimes there’s a lot of gray areas that, you know, we didn’t discuss verbally, you know, who was supposed to be responsible for this thing, but it’s critical to what we’re doing together, and we kind of both just let it slip by having a written agreement and really challenging yourself to make sure that it’s gonna work in multiple situations and with different contingencies think that’s really important. Okay, i think i’m glad you said it. I can tell you feel strongly about it. Excellent. I should plug there’s another non-profit attorney out there. Her name is alice carter she’s a friend. And she writes the charity lawyer block. I got an excellent article on mou or written agreement. And if anybody wants to look into that further, i highly recommend that article. I know ellis she’s in phoenix, arizona, isn’t she? Yeah. Yeah. Ok. That’s, charity law blawg dot com verity, lawyer block charlie lawyer blogged, right? That’s because she calls herself charity lawyer. Yes. Okay. Ellis if she’s listening. Hello, alice. Um, now, all right, so what happens if there is a disappointment and somebody doesn’t follow through and, of course, that somebody could be you now that we have an enforceable contract, you know, it’s enforceable always and including against you. So suppose somebody doesn’t follow through and do what they’re supposed to do, and we touched on that on the last show as well. And, generally speaking, we probably don’t put a lot of specific remedies in there. We just say, well, if one party doesn’t live through and the other party got harmed by it you know, the party that didn’t follow through should compensate and make up for any harm that their partner i’ll say partner, loosely speaking, lost out on just to make them back make him whole again. But there’s sometimes maybe specific things that that that you want from them. So if they were expecting you were expecting them to deliver something and they didn’t do it on time. You may say, well, we still want delivery of of that. Plus, we want some sort of compensation or or additional services because you missed out so you can be very specific in the agreement, or you could just let the agreement be enforceable by the amount of damages or harm that you suffered, and this will be part of the negotiations of the agreement. That’s, right? You might think your damages should be something, and the other side may think now, you know, shouldn’t be that large, and that will be all part of the discussions in the negotiations. Yeah, and the more you know, involved in the bigger the the agreement and the, you know, potential joint venture that you’re engaging in that the more lawyerly it should look, with more provisions. If it’s really again, a very simple thing. You may not have to worry so much about technical provisions, unless you really think you’re gonna be harmed in a specific way, right? If it’s something smaller and like you said, ah, one off that’s ah, small, a small venture together. Yeah, and you’ve got to be reasonable. Obviously, you don’t want to spend five thousand dollars in legal fees for an event that’s going to only generate ten thousand dollars. Now we can we have this thing called partnerships, which is a legal term. When would a partnership between non-profits be appropriate? Well, a partnership, legally speaking means that both entities, they’re both partners, are going to be completely libel, responsible for whatever they’re doing together and that’s a really important point to know, because that means if you’re one partner and you’re the other partners screws up and some people get hurt, they consume both of you. And if your partner says, well, i’m sorry i don’t have any money to pay off the lawsuit, you’re completely responsible for the whole thing, not just half of it, you’re responsible for the whole thing. So really important part to understand if you’re really in a partnership as we use that term legally, that means you’re going to be completely responsible for anything that goes wrong with the partnership. You’re you’re working hard to stay in the jargon jail because you don’t want to say you don’t want to say joint and several liability, right? You said it, not me, ok, i was in my mind, right? So that means that everybody’s responsible for everything, irrespective of what their role in the problem might have been do i say that? Right? So you could be completely innocent and completely not responsible for the harm caused to a third party. But at least when they’re trying to collect some money for for whatever harm they suffered, they can get it all from you if your partner doesn’t have any money. Right. Okay, now, partnership could be more than just two non-profits. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Okay, just making that shirt okay. Making clear. Okay, so, that’s a pretty serious thing to take on partnership versace not declaring it as a partnership. And how would you make that clear? That would be in the agreement or partnerships require certain special agreements. It’s a really great question because you could enter into a partnership without a written agreement. If you just act in a way that says, hey, you’re jointly responsible for putting on an event or putting on a program or delivering services together, and you show that you’re you know, just by your actions that you’re jointly responsible for it. And perhaps you’re sharing the revenue stream that’s being generated if there is some revenue coming out of that joint venture well, you could form a partnership for which you’re liable for your other partners, mistakes without a partnership agreement or without any writing at all so it could be imputed by philip business based on all the facts like you just described them, yeah, hey can can be, uh sometimes people enter into agreements and they say in the agreement, this is very common to say we’re not engaged in a partnership and they feel like, well, that’s an out and that’s helpful language, but that’s not the whole story, because if you’re still sharing responsibilities and obligations and your conduct is that of a partner and you’re still sharing the revenues let’s, say with two partners fifty fifty yeah, no matter what you’re contributing, you still may be on the hook of a partner to a partnership, even though the agreement that you entered into said we’re not partners see, this makes me want to just live in a cocoon and never talked to anybody because i may i may have a conversation with somebody on the subway, and now now i’m in a partnership, it just means you want to talk, talk about it a little bit with a lawyer. Just to get an understanding of how to form these collaborations and one talk with the lawyer may go a long way in multiple relationships. So get that initial conversation, or maybe attend illegal seminar, where they talk about these things. Okay, very good advice, let’s, let’s, take our our break. When we come back, jean and i’ll keep talking about friends with benefits, and we’ll talk about maybe some. Well, not maybe talk about some measures of success, and howto decide about sharing the results of your collaboration together. Notice. I didn’t call it a partnership, because it may not necessarily be one. Stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot. Com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s two one two, seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com way. Look forward to serving you. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. If you have big dreams in a small budget tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio, i d’oh. I’m adam braun, founder of pencils of promise. Oppcoll welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. We’re joined by some new listeners. Ah, third, listen, another listener in georgia. Decatur. We’ve got decatur, atlanta and coming. Uh, cummings, georgia, do you know each other? I wonder san francisco, california gene, i don’t think that’s you there’s somebody else listening in san francisco, brooklyn, new york, still with us love it and none. Jing china china joined us. Ni hao jean let’s see about what would cover in continuing this let’s see about defining success, how we should should should measures of success be part of our agreement? Yeah, i think it depends upon the level of collaboration that we’re talking about. They’re different levels that we can go to. For example, two non-profits could decide they want to share a photocopier. Okay. That’s a collaborative effort on the very, very low end of the scale. Or maybe they want to share a chief financial officer that gets a little bit more complex. That’s. Interesting. Right? Sharing staff. Yeah, yeah, right. Or maybe they just want to share space so that, you know, depending upon the level we get to it. Maybe you know, pursuant to a resource sharing agreement or cost sharing structure. Or we may have to do, you know, create mutual service agreements or independent contractor agreements, maybe it’s one way, maybe it’s two way going both ways and how we figure all that out. Uh, it means that we we have to understand what the goals are. So going back to your question at the outset of any negotiations or discussions between the different non-profits that want to collaborate, they have to figure out their mutual goals, and then individually they have to set apart well, what do they each want? You know, from from this relationship, and how will they define it to be a success? Because that varies just completely amongst every collaboration you mentioned, the sharing of space, and that doesn’t have to certainly be between non-profits a lot of times someone who’s close to an organisation on a lot of times, that’s a boardmember not necessarily ah, has extra space, and they will give the space to the to the non-profit um and i don’t know that those air always papered or even paper correctly, but i bet they’re not even a lot of times just paper. But there should be some kind of an agreement in writing between that the company that the boardmember let’s say represents and the non-profit right, especially if that boardmember is going to be paid there’s some conflict of interest issues involved their private foundations can’t do that at all for money. Public charities can as long as it’s reasonable compensation. But there are some rules, both ous five a onesie, three entities and there’s some state non-profit rules that may apply so good conflict of interest policy is going to be important to make sure that it protects the non-profit from getting into on ly a reasonable deal to the non-profit not one that provides some sort of private benefit to the director. But, you know, the vast majority of these cases are where boardmember czar offering space for free right to the non-profit andi it’s their own place that that’s absolutely fine. If the boardmember is actually leasing that out and sublease may be necessary or else they may be breaching their own lease with the landlord. Okay, a lot of implications to that mean, just, you know, we have to we have to be protecting ourselves. I mean he’s non-profits on non-profit is a company that’s it’s a corporation it’s a business. It just happens to be a non-profit business, so it needs to be run like a business. Absolutely. We gotta protect ourselves. Our employees are the people we’re serving and those lives were saving the donors who have invested, you know, we all ah, they all we all need to be protected. And so that’s that’s, you know, that’s why we’re talking about this stuff? I mean, you know, just do these things lightly and, you know, sort of on a handshake. Yeah, and, you know, but you know, non-profits don’t have owners that’s a big difference and that’s why the board it’s got to be reminded there’s, not an owner overseeing to make sure that the non-profit really gets a fair deal, and maybe you were lucky enough to have an executive who’s willing to take on that task, but it’s really up to the board to make sure that they’re looking after that. Non-profit and making sure that the non-profit is not giving sweetheart deals to anybody else outside of the organization, regardless of whether they’re a boardmember or an officer or anybody the non-profit has got to protect its own charitable assets. That would be the role of shareholders in a profit making corporation, and they have their own personal motivation to do that. But non-profit boardmember here, mostly volunteers. They may not have that, and they may sort of not be exercising that type of diligence at an owner would over their own assets. But they kind of have to, because they’re they’re the ones that are providing that stewardship over the non-profits asset. So, really, that they need to be paying as much attention to the non-profits work as they do their own businesses work. Ideally, yeah, okay. So i suppose we have some delivery bols involved in all this, and this is, you know, sort of subsumed in what we’ve been talking about already just want to make it explicit. If there’s money that’s going to be shared or some other delivery ble that’s goingto result maybe it’s, even ah, a grant proposal that’s going to be joint and that’s the delivery ble that that should be specified. Yeah, that should all be specified. And, you know, i sort of wanted to jump it back in on that partnership thing. It’s not always bad toe have a partnership. Maybe you do want engage in a partnership with another non-profit and do it through a legal entity like a limited liability company and that’s almost like having a kid together. So if you’ve decided to partner with another non-profit tohave child or this joint venture together, you better know who that person is. And you better know how you want to raise your child and what each of you are going to contribute to the child’s growth and what happens when you have a disagreement over how to raise that child. If i just take that analogy further. And you know how comfortable you’ll be with liabilities caused solely by your co venture? Because if you don’t want to be partners, limited liability company means that you’re only liable to to the extent of your investment in the llc, the partnership liabilities don’t come up if you do this right, they don’t come up and hit the non-profit partners, they’re just limited to whatever that contributed to the llc. Still, i’m glad i called this friends with benefits because basically you’re saying you gotta hold hands before you sleep together. Yeah, kind of and taking it one step further if a joint ventures like having a kid together. Ah, merger on you mentioned that at the last of the last show that’s kind of the ultimate collaboration and that’s, you know, if i could take take bad analogy further let’s, let’s say that that’s really like marriage on marriage with almost no possibility of divorce, are very, very difficult. Um, it might be true in the analogy and analogous version, but no, no it’s much easier in the end, i have personal experience on that take a metaphor further, but yeah, no merger is you’re you’re now want you’ve, you’ve formed a union, you’re you’re now one, right? Okay. And all sorts of considerations to make sure, you know, you understand that not only are you gonna acquire all the assets of your marriage partner, but you’re goingto acquire all of their debts and liabilities and obligations as well. So you really got to know what the other partner is bringing to the table. Hold hands before you before you sleep together and make sure you use protection. Very good that’s what comes from our friends from friends with benefits segment? And now, i mean, you know, we got to protect ourselves. That’s, that’s what you’re saying, do you have to we have to leave it there. Thank you very, very much. Thanks, tony. You’ll find jeanette non-profit law blogged dot com and on twitter he’s at ji tech next week, a non-profit technology conference panel on female technologists that the panel is not all men that’s good, because men don’t know anything about women’s struggles competing in technology. So it’s, an all female panel talking about females in technology. Also any sample ward returns she’s, our social media contributor and ceo of non-profit technology network, where i did that interview? If you missed any part of today’s show, find it on tony martignetti dot com small and midsize shops. Remember generosity siri’s for multi charity five k runs and walks seven one eight, five o six. Nine, triple seven or generosity siri’s, dot com. Our creative producers, claire meyerhoff, sam liebowitz is on the board. Our line producer shows social media is by julia campbell of jake campbell. Social marketing and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is, as always, john federico of the new rules. This music is by scott stein of brooklyn. You with me next week for non-profit radio. I hope you will be big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be great. Yeah. They didn’t think that shooting getting dink, dink, dink, dink. You’re listening to the talking alternative network waiting to get in. Nothing. Cubine are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. 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