Transcript for 476_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200214.mp3

Processed on: 2020-02-15T03:55:19.777Z
S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results
Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results
Path to JSON: 2020…02…476_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200214.mp3.813274271.json
Path to text: transcripts/2020/02/476_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20200214.txt

[00:00:13.54] spk_1:
Hello and welcome to tony-martignetti

[00:00:31.34] spk_3:
non profit radio big non profit ideas for the other 95% on her aptly named host, Happy Valentine’s Day. I hope that you and your Valentine or Valentine’s may have multiple. Let’s not go into detail. Are enjoying time together I don’t know together, or at least corresponding together to share your affinity and Valentine’s wishes with each other. Um, I remember. I remember in elementary school this is probably kindergarten or first grade E. I think everybody’s done this. We used to make the little Valentine’s Day cards, and you had you did one card for everybody in your little class. And as I look back on that now, I think that is repugnant, forced like this kindergarten coercion that you have to be Valentine’s with everybody in the class. I hated the

[00:01:05.61] spk_2:
kids in my class is I

[00:02:47.55] spk_3:
Look back now They were They were unrequited. Uh uh. I don’t want to say unrequited loves because we’re talking about kindergarten, unrequited crushes. Yeah, and bullies and geeks who reminded me of myself while I was I was trying to be kindergarten. Cool, of course. So these kids drove me crazy and I have to do a card for each one of these little kids. I should’ve put arsenic in or something. What’s that? White powder? Everybody. Males, I forget what that is. Anthrax, I should put it. I should be interactive. Those kindergarten cards just so big deal. Happy Valentine’s Day. All right, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d be thrown into cardio megally if you swelled my heart with how much you’re looking forward to today’s show relationship. Fundraising. What else? There’s a lot of conventional wisdom about how to be donor centric and build strong relationships. But what the social psychology research tell us about how to achieve these and what your donors expect from you at each relationship stage. Adrian Sergeant was a professor at Plymouth University and directed its Center for Sustainable Philanthropy that originally aired on March 18th 2016 on Tony’s Take two planned giving relationships. What else were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As guiding you beyond the numbers regular cps dot com But Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for nonprofits. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO Adrian Sergeant is now chief executive of the Philanthropy Center, a consultancy in the UK Philanthropy Hyphen Center Dot or GE, with the English speaking um Spelling the English spelling, I should say of Center, Very sophisticated. Here is personalized philanthropy.

[00:03:42.59] spk_2:
It’s my pleasure to welcome Professor Adrian Sergeant to the show. He’s professor of fundraising at Plymouth University and director of the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy. There he used to hold the Hartsook chair in fundraising at the Lily Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University. Fact, he’s calling today from Bloomington. He’s a prolific author, researcher and presenter. If you go to the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy website, you will get bored scrolling down his list of books, papers, articles and presentations. Center, by the way, is C E N T R e. We have, ah, snooty English university there. Plymouth. He’s at Adrian Sergeant, and his last name is spelled like the military rank. Welcome, doctor, Professor. Edgy and Sergeant.

[00:03:58.14] spk_0:
Well, thanks.

[00:04:00.47] spk_2:
Pleasure. Welcome from from Bloomington, Indiana. How is it there?

[00:04:05.04] spk_4:
It’s a lovely spring day here, and

[00:04:07.43] spk_0:
I’m looking at into blue skies in sometime, which

[00:04:12.63] spk_2:
is not. Not always the case in the UK either.

[00:04:19.35] spk_0:
Uh, no, Certainly not in my part of the UK. Everything you hear about British rain and British weather is pretty much true. My region.

[00:04:23.61] spk_2:
I see. What region where his Plymouth

[00:04:26.71] spk_0:
Thomas is right down in the southwest tip of the country on its claim to fame, I suppose, for your audience is that it’s where the Pilgrim Fathers set sail from

[00:04:36.42] spk_4:
years ago. The Mayflower left from the steps of the barbeque in the area in the city. A plumber.

[00:04:54.89] spk_2:
Oh, excellent. Okay, that’s interesting. Oh, and then Plymouth. Then we have Plymouth Rock on the US side. So? So that was a very symmetric trip. I never knew that. Total symmetry ever

[00:04:56.16] spk_4:
visit. You can actually see the steps that

[00:05:04.10] spk_0:
the Pilgrim Fathers used Thio aboard the main fire before they set bail on that. That point Very epic journey.

[00:05:06.15] spk_2:
Yeah, of course. I I guess they called it Plymouth Rock Thio make it symmetric. So it’s not like it was named. It wasn’t named Plymouth Rock when they landed on it. I don’t want people to think that that’s what I was assuming that it was named Plymouth Rock when they landed. I don’t believe it was, um okay. Oh, very cool. Interesting. Thank you. Um, all right. Relationship fundraising. Adrian, it’s okay if I call you Adrian, right?

[00:05:29.41] spk_0:
Yeah.

[00:05:37.64] spk_2:
Okay. I don’t get Doctor, you know, you’re not calling on me for questions or anything. So Dr a professor. Okay, Adrian, um, what’s the current state of this? I gather it’s not what it ought to be.

[00:05:59.63] spk_0:
No, sadly, the quality of relationship fundraising automatically in the States but around the world is not in a particularly happy space right now on the reason I say that is because he’s now got quite a lot of data on the pattern that dona retention and loyalty that we’re able to generate. And obviously the whole thrust of relationship fundraising is that you want to build longer term, mutually satisfying relationships and supported

[00:06:11.90] spk_2:
yes,

[00:06:25.50] spk_0:
and all the evidence that the moment is that it’s going in entirely the opposite direction we lose. Typically in the States, we lose around 70% of our supporters between the first and the second donation, and then probably around 30% of them year on year thereafter. Well, you try running a business.

[00:06:52.33] spk_2:
Yeah, I’ve had other guests on Quote that exact same statistic, and I don’t understand how this can be because there is so much talk about donor centric donor centrism and we have to listen to our donors and pay attention to their needs and put them in the center. Why Why? Why is this not working? There’s so much talk about it. Why are we not doing it?

[00:07:21.34] spk_0:
I think there are only two reasons for that. One is that often when I talk about loyalty and retention in the sense that kind of preaching to acquire a lot of fundraisers know what they should be doing or could be doing. But they don’t always necessarily get the stain level of investment from the board that they’re looking for on it could be oftentimes quite able to push that level of change through The second reason I think is on. We might talk more about this, but I think one of the problems we have in fundraising is that it’s one of the few professions, in fact, probably the only profession you enjoin

[00:07:38.08] spk_4:
without actually meeting to know anything. Good luck, you know, going to see a dentist

[00:08:03.91] spk_0:
to have studied or doctor that had studied or even employing a plumber who hasn’t studied. It’s important. I think, that fundraisers they’re exposed when they come into the profession to a body of knowledge. Then it’s agreed that this is what you need to know. If you’re going to be a successful, competent, calm razor on that, then organizations would employ people who had demonstrably, you know, got that body of knowledge because we don’t have that right now because we don’t value it. Oftentimes people end up in fundraising rolls where they’re really having to discover things that we already know.

[00:08:34.77] spk_2:
Yeah, now are we getting better? I mean, there are programs. There are degree programs and including at Plymouth University and the ones I can think of in the US at New York University and Columbia. Um, I think Fordham and those are only New York’s those ones. The ads that I get New York City. Those are only New York City. So there are more programs. Are we? Are we starting to recognize the value of a professional pressure, professionally trained fundraising force?

[00:08:45.43] spk_4:
I think

[00:08:46.92] spk_2:
for now

[00:08:47.34] spk_0:
that

[00:08:47.63] spk_2:
No, no, no, we’re not some

[00:09:17.61] spk_0:
of the some of the programs are varying quality. I mean, there are some good ones, obviously, that one come on by you. And there’s one of Mary’s in Minnesota and I could go on. But the sweet spot for fundraising education is where you got a blend delivery by practitioners and academics so that you get some of the emerging science of doing a behavior that impacts on what people Noah’s. Well, sadly, I think some programs are run entirely by practitioners. So you’re gonna get 1/2 of the equation there on what you’ll get, obviously, their you know, their background in their experience, which obviously has a place. But that’s not the same as being exposed to the modern research findings. That example on social psychology we’re gonna talk about that, could be informing what they do.

[00:09:38.26] spk_2:
Yeah, yeah, you end up with more of the conventional wisdom.

[00:10:02.69] spk_0:
Yeah, we’ve got a You know, I’ve mentioned we’ve got a problem with attention right now. What I didn’t say is that actually getting worse. I’ve just completed a very large scale study in England of six million boner records. We’ve looked at people recruited way back in 2000 and compared them with people recruited in 2010 on their substantively less loyal now. So not only we got very leaky bucket, but that bucket is getting weaker by the day.

[00:10:15.01] spk_2:
Okay, that’s Ah, that’s pretty positive motivation in enthusiastic motivation. Let’s Ah, let’s go out for a break. Adrian and I are gonna continue talking. Of course, we’ve got what What drives donor loyalty and how do you measure it? And the stages of the fundraising relationship? Stay with us.

[00:11:05.39] spk_3:
It’s time for a break. Wegner-C.P.As the CPS, for God’s sake. So we know what they do, right? Help with your nine nineties help with your audit. Um, we all are acquainted with what certified public accountants do. So do you need to make a change? Take a look at Wagner. You know, the, um, partner, You know, one of the partners who will be on the show Actually, next week, you each to him, um, started wegner-C.P.As dot com Talk to eat, see if their c p a firm can fit what you need from a c. P a wegner-C.P.As dot com Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:11:08.60] spk_2:
Adrian, let’s jump in and explore what what it is that we know will drive the donor loyalty that we’re trying to reverse the trend of,

[00:12:13.03] spk_0:
Well, the fact is really quite similar to any relationship that somebody might have with an organization. So there’s a lot of learning that we can take from the commercial world that we find it equally relevant to the non profit space on. My guess is that many of your listeners will have the car service recently or they stayed in a hotel or they used the service online. That probably they’ve been asked at some point, tell us what you think of the service has satisfied. Were you with the quality of that experience on these kind of satisfaction that is, in a sense, kind of quite ubiquitous. I think they re home. They’re Big Quintus is because there’s a huge link between her status side somebody with the court in service. There was the on their level of loyalty on people who are very status by six times more likely to come back and purchase again on average, people who just

[00:12:18.14] spk_4:
satisfied. So there’s, um, active behavioral difference on the

[00:12:30.59] spk_0:
extreme of the scale, right? So the goal needs to be for our organizations to get people to the point where they’re very satisfied, actually with the way they’re treated as a donor. Now, the last one I make here is that the multiple in our world

[00:12:43.22] spk_4:
isn’t as big as it is in the trading context. Trading world very satisfied, equates to six times more likely to come back again in

[00:12:59.29] spk_0:
our world doneness. You say they’re very satisfied that the cause your service provided by the fundraising team are twice as likely to be giving a year, then thin people who say they’re just satisfied. So it’s been a massive factor, but the multiple isn’t quite as big as it might be in other contexts.

[00:13:03.72] spk_2:
Okay, um, any any thoughts? Why, that is why I don’t How come we only get 1/3 of the the likelihood of returning the compared to the corporate world?

[00:13:39.26] spk_0:
Well, I think there’s a range of other factors that player in our space that also have an impact on loyalty and retention satisfactions an important one on one of the things I like to do it folks, that conference isn’t tease and then right in the satisfaction is a major driver of donor loyalty which in terms of which in turn, is a major driver of the value of the fundraising database. So how many people actually measure it? Then on if you’re lucky in a room of 200 people, you might get one hand

[00:13:43.69] spk_2:
goes on, then

[00:14:03.46] spk_0:
you are people well out of those folks you know who’s actually remunerated, how good they make their donuts feel on Duh. You won’t find any hands that go with that point that we don’t take that factor seriously enough. But then there are other things that creep in in our world the trust in the organization that some of your listeners might

[00:14:06.60] spk_4:
be thinking God havens talking about satisfaction with a court

[00:14:10.17] spk_0:
service provided by the fundraising team. But what about all that really great stuff we do with beneficiaries? Surely that’s gotta count for something

[00:14:15.32] spk_2:
in terms

[00:14:40.30] spk_0:
of retention and loyalty, right difference that we make Andi that’s true. But for most donors, unless they’re major donors, the mechanism for that it’s trust. If I’m a major donor and I’ve given you five million to put up a building, in a sense, I don’t need to trust you because I can see the building up. Right. But if I’ve given you $50 to help starving child, that I really have to trust that you say you do exactly what you told me you’re going to do with that resource.

[00:14:46.78] spk_2:
Eso

[00:14:47.42] spk_0:
trust for the vast majority of our donors is a big driving factor in terms of lost in the

[00:14:59.49] spk_2:
Okay. Okay, Um and, uh, you know, these sound very much like, not only, you know, relationship factors in a commercial sense, but also in a personal sense. They are our friends and our parents. No loved ones.

[00:15:33.80] spk_0:
Yeah, a lot of these relationship variables are just as relevant toe all human relationships. Originally, this study of things like satisfaction, trust and commitment all came out something called relationship marketing on what that was trying to do is to take ideas from human relationships on applying. In that case, thio the relationships that businesses have the customers on at the core of a ll. The relationship that we have of the emotions of satisfaction, commitment and trust.

[00:15:40.64] spk_2:
No. Anything you want to tease out about commitment? We spent little time with satisfaction and trust anything more. You want to say about commitment?

[00:15:50.89] spk_0:
Yeah, commitment is one of the really big drivers of loyalty on dhe. Usually that comes out stronger than thin. The others I’ve mentioned

[00:15:56.90] spk_2:
on

[00:16:37.79] spk_0:
what that is is a really burning passion to be the mission of the organization achieved. And you can imagine that people who are committed to finding a cure for breast cancer tend to support charities that do that and for extended periods of time. But that real passion to see the mission achieved is one of the really big drivers of loyalty and retention on. So the question, I suppose, then, is well, I had you build commitment. Then again, we know from research Quite a few things helped build commitment that wanted the risk. So if you’re running a shelter for homeless poke and I’m a donut, the organization and I believe that by canceling my gift today, somebody, somewhere is gonna be without a bed.

[00:16:42.95] spk_4:
Tonight I am a bunch

[00:17:16.68] spk_0:
more likely to continue to support that shelter s O. That element that I see a risk in canceling will help drive commitment. So too, will a personal connection. You know, if my life had been touched, my breast cancer, because I had lost a loved one to it. You can imagine that I’d be pretty fired up about finding a cure for that being committed to those sorts of organizations on then. Also, it worthy of note is something I call multiple engagements, and there’s a micro on a macro level to that. The macro level is that people who are donors and campaigners and service users and volunteers and

[00:17:24.21] spk_4:
and wait,

[00:17:25.49] spk_0:
let me get that and

[00:17:26.26] spk_2:
you

[00:17:52.26] spk_0:
get a whopping back, more loyalty and in the micro level is every time you have a two way interaction where there’s a little bit of cognition that takes place, maybe the organization asking your question, What would you like to receive? What do you think about this? How many times do you want to hear from last year? Do you want to get news? Whatever it might be every time you have that to a interaction with water, you get a little teeny, tiny bit more loyalty. And, of course, in the digital space, it’s now by easy toe have those little, many interactions with people, and it’s really worthwhile because ultimately it drives behavior.

[00:18:01.20] spk_2:
Excellent. Now there’s research supporting all this right

[00:18:05.44] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:06.45] spk_2:
I’ve

[00:18:26.34] spk_0:
bean doing work in the not profit space for the best part of 20 years. Now on. We’ve done large scale survey work with probably a couple 100,000 donors here in the States now getting on for two million donors in Europe, tracking the relationship between satisfaction, commitment, trust and then behaviors of interest. Like like you giving next year with assembly of upgrade on even actually leaving a bequest to the organization.

[00:18:39.14] spk_2:
What about that? That’s a significant How is that a significant factor?

[00:18:46.04] spk_0:
Well, one of the big drivers off the single biggest driver, I’d say, Really, the likelihood that somebody will leave a bequest. The nonprofit organization is how long they’ve been supporting

[00:18:57.92] spk_2:
it, Yes,

[00:19:13.50] spk_0:
on and typically find working with clients. I’ll say, you know, we’re gonna have a request program that is, forget all the complicated plan giving vehicles, but just right, asking somebody to remember a charity with a gift in their will or estate documents, then the single to get indicators of willingness to do that is how long people have been. Giving Onda anytime over three years actually is a pretty good indicator that that person cares about you is committed to the cause and therefore will at least give some consideration to that request. So surprise, Surprise. You know, commitment is a pretty big indicator of the likelihood of doing that.

[00:20:15.74] spk_2:
Okay, Yeah. I don’t know if you know that, but know this, but I do plan to giving fundraising consulting, and that’s where we’re always looking for the best potential bequest donors is who are the most committed loyal donors. And, uh, I didn’t know that a CE feu is three years. Could be could be a positive factor, But I’m always looking for Some organizations are easily, you know, decades older, sometimes sometimes even 100 years old. Couple of the universities have worked. So you know, if people have been giving 2030 years or 25 of the past 30 years, they’re, ah, enormously good potential donor for ah, for bequest or some of the other plan gifts to Yeah,

[00:20:39.88] spk_0:
Yeah, I I’d agree wholeheartedly with that it And it’s amazing how very few organizations even bothered to ask for a bequest on if they do. How many organizations think that somehow people will be inspired by the mechanics of death and dying some of the communications regenerate. Thank you. Just

[00:20:43.20] spk_4:
thank you. Make

[00:20:44.23] spk_0:
a will and

[00:20:45.06] spk_5:
you

[00:21:14.01] spk_0:
may change your will. And then the mechanics of the plan giving vehicles were actually You want somebody to give You want to inspire them with a vision of what the future could look like? That people are inherently more positive about the future on so good. Positive messages about what the world might look like that evoke a little bit of emotion are actually a lot more useful in that quest space than technical brochures about how you die miserable.

[00:21:24.01] spk_2:
Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that digression. But it’s it’s what I spend my time doing when I’m not when I’m not done. Non profit radio. Very interesting to going back to the There’s little micro engagements you get. You get a little uptick. You said of of, ah, commitment went with just these small engagement.

[00:22:15.18] spk_0:
Yeah. Um, if you if you would follow my knife on you woulda measure, let’s say satisfaction and commitment. And you sent out a little survey to a sample of your dignity. Our guarantee. If you tracked that sample of people over time, you’ll find that they’re a little, teeny, tiny, bit more loyal than the balance of the database. And that’s the administration of this little bit of cognition. You’ve got a communication from the Red Cross, Let’s say and you think that’s right. I got a relationship with the Red Cross. I’ll go back to them at all. Well, that’s a relationship with the American Cancer Society. Oh, that’s right. Every time you get that little bit of interaction, you get a little bit more loyalty questionnaire getting people to take other actions on your behalf that aren’t related to fundraising. Getting them to participate in an event that you’re doing online are tuning into a podcast or tell us what you think. All of those things are really smart in terms of loyalty. Because every time you have that interaction punch up just a little bit, how loyal these individuals are

[00:22:38.39] spk_2:
not standing. Love this. Okay, um, we need to be able to measure donor loyalty. How Ah, what are what are the metrics?

[00:22:50.00] spk_0:
Uh, well, one of the one of the big issues we’ve got in our sector right now is the metrics are, well, frankly wrong on to be even more blunt about it. I think a lot of our non profit boards need to be taken at Inspector.

[00:23:10.02] spk_2:
Is that a bare bottom spanking or they keep their pants. They keep their pants up. Is it Is a parrot a bare bottom spank with a paddle? Or is this a bare handed?

[00:23:15.19] spk_0:
I think it depends on the degree,

[00:23:21.48] spk_2:
a degree of readiness you want to achieve. Okay,

[00:23:31.37] spk_0:
Yeah. I mean, why did I say that? Well, because oftentimes people who serve on non profit boards are actually quite bright. Oftentimes they had very successful business careers, and that’s one of the reasons that they’re there because they’re plugging in their advice as well. On it’s almost as if they part their bring that side the boardroom before they go through and into the meeting.

[00:23:43.69] spk_4:
Because in the

[00:24:42.74] spk_0:
commercial space, they know very well the measure customer lifetime value and they understand what that is. And I understand why it’s important they understand to the merits of measuring the things that drive customer lifetime value. So that’s why you get the satisfaction. So people measuring commitment and saw you walk through into the non profit boardroom and suddenly somehow all of that knowledge and understanding they had get forgot on. The only metrics we’re interested in is how much raised this part year or month. How many did you attract? Andi, you know, don’t start the metric that short term thinking doesn’t help you think about the lifetime value of your database and you And that was fundraising. That sub optimal. What you end up with this fundraising that is content to recruiting donors on, then lose 70% of them between the first and the second donation. That complete kind of focus on short term measures get people to the point where all they do is chase the short term measures. So we’re going to continue to try and find you Don’t.

[00:24:53.67] spk_2:
No, you don’t.

[00:24:55.12] spk_4:
We’re gonna continue

[00:25:18.04] spk_0:
to try and maximize how much money we could get those spokes. Actually, what we need to do is to take a step back and say, you know, maybe we should be measuring the things with Dr Longer Term or Lifetime Dahlia on beginning to reward our fundraising with the quality of the relationships that they build. Ronda van, you know, the dollars and cents that they raised yet today,

[00:25:22.31] spk_2:
okay.

[00:25:35.58] spk_0:
And immediately you do that, you get a huge change in culture because suddenly what people are interested in doing is building relationships, not having that sort of burn and turn way, haven’t

[00:25:44.95] spk_2:
you? Must have a lot of examples of what we should specifically be measuring in our our fundraisers?

[00:26:01.29] spk_0:
Well, I would if it were me. I would be using some of the same things that the commercial world have been using for 20 years, so I would measure satisfaction commitment on trust. Andi, you know there are measurement scales to doing that. It’s a little survey. You track how people feel

[00:26:22.94] spk_4:
on. If you do that, it’s the It’s the margin of those measures that makes the difference. Remember, I talked earlier about the percentage of people who were very satisfied, very satisfied. That’s the important bit. It’s the extremes of those scales and changes in that that make the difference on the

[00:27:24.83] spk_0:
good news is that even small improvements in loyalty in the here and now translate to a whopping improvements in the lifetime value of the fundraising database. So if I can improve the level of retention by 10% in the here and now, I can increase the last time value of hundreds in database by over 50%. Why? Because the effect compounds over time. So if you’ve got more donors left at the end of this year, you’re gonna have even more the following year. And even more than you know the year after that. For many organizations, that’s not the end of the story either, because most organizations lose money on donor acquisition just to go out and keep finding lots of donors to replace the one we lost that he knew a lot of money on. If you factor that into my equation, my little improvement in loyalty in the here and now of 10% would improve the lifetime, deliver hundreds in database for anything up to 100%. You

[00:27:25.02] spk_4:
can make

[00:27:25.54] spk_2:
a huge

[00:27:26.40] spk_5:
just

[00:27:28.03] spk_0:
by having little improvement in loyalty and hearing that.

[00:27:52.10] spk_2:
All right, um, I wonder if we can drill down to ah, more micro level in terms of the measurement of the performance of our our fundraising staff. Um, are there are there individual metrics and me in terms of how how they have moved donors from one stage to the other or, you know, in terms of the the actual performance of the fund raisers themselves or their metrics there.

[00:28:31.04] spk_0:
I think, I think, the answer, that question. We depend on the form of fundraising that you’re looking at on. So the metrics will be different depending on when it was dark. Don’t nail dot response or someone like Major Get Andi made. You get officers that remunerated to for the amount of money that they raised. But they’re also remunerated for the amount of time it’s been in front of clients. The member of proposals they made the number of recognition events there. Kendall. All of those good things. Um, but one of

[00:28:49.59] spk_4:
the things I think it can be shared a causal. The forms of fundraising is have a good do we make our donuts field today on measuring that that quality of the relationship, And that does come back again. The satisfaction commitment on dhe trust in the dark spot space. I would also be saying, you know, we should be taking decisions about

[00:28:55.77] spk_0:
investments on the basis off

[00:29:28.04] spk_4:
donor lifetime value on DDE. What that means in your complaining the issues that if we’re going to invest in an acquisition campaign we’re no gonna assess that campaign is a success simply because we bought in 200 donors on a lot of 100 donors because it may be that most people were recruited, won’t come back and give again right that we’ve gone with the other alternative campaign. We could have run, you know, we only recruited in 100 donors, but actually, most of those people stayed giving for the next five years. So taking

[00:29:53.24] spk_0:
longer term decisions based on that lifetime value, I think is really smart and even in small organizations that may behind a little difficult to do some of that matter. Maybe because they’re working on, even like a simple Excel database or something, they can still be looking at things like Retention Lee on beginning to shift the focus of the way in which the team is remunerated to the level of loyalty that’s engendered now. If you can also measure the things that drive loyalty, that’s great. But if you can’t, then the starting point for me is at least to get a sense of the health of that program and the health of relationships that just by you know, the numbers of people who were still actively engaged in court.

[00:30:24.90] spk_2:
Agent. I love the idea of measuring how donors feel of, um all right, we’re gonna come back. I need you to hang out for a couple of minutes while I do a little business. Don’t go anywhere, Adrian. Just Ah, just, uh, just keep listening.

[00:32:09.45] spk_3:
We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software Quote We’ve been very happy with Cougar Mountain. It’s rare to encounter a problem with software, but they are always there to help walk me through it. End quote. That’s Sally Hancock in Altuna, Pennsylvania. More raves about their customer service. Don’t take it from me. Take it from the ticket from the customers. The user’s You got it. They have a free 60 day trial, which you will find on the listener landing page at now. It’s time for Tony’s Take two and your planned giving relationships. Yes, the thing I like most about planned giving. It’s the relationships and being a consultant, I have a lot fewer of these donor relationships than I did in the ah back in the years when I was director of planned giving. But there are still some and and instead of having them and enjoying them personally. I sort of enjoy Maur a greater proportion of them by Karius Lee by coaching clients, helping them to build these plant giving donor and potential donor relationships. You know, these were talking about America’s elders, and they have stories that are touching and scary. Um, historical, Uh, you know, it’s a They have a different perspective because it’s different generation and you can you can just you can learn so much. They’re in a different phase of their life. They’re more relaxed. Mostly, um, it’s, uh, yeah, the relationships. It’s very touching, part of a plan giving program, and I go in even more detail. And I’ve got a story or two on the video, which you will find at tony-martignetti dot com about planned giving relationships. And that is Tony’s Take two. Now back to relationship fundraising.

[00:35:00.59] spk_2:
I gotta send live listener love. I want to shout you out by city and state, but Sam here is having board the back end problems or something more talk about spanking or in the back end again. Um, we can’t see you by city and state, so I know that you’re out there New York, New York. ST Louis, Missouri Boston, Massachusetts New Bern, North Carolina, California I know there’s somebody in California listening, probably San Francisco, but I know there’s a California listener. Those are the live Listen, love people the loyal live a look that loyal, live listener live. Um, that I know her out there love, of course, to all the current live listeners and going abroad. I know there are listeners right now in Tokyo. Konnichiwa, I know we have listeners in China and Taiwan because we always do Ni Hao And I know that South Korea is checking in because it does week after week on Yo Hoss, I Oh, now, in case we are ah, in ah, in Mexico, we’ve had listeners in Mexico. Buenas today’s The Czech Republic occasionally does check in Dobre den Germany. We occasionally get Germany. Guten tag. Okay, I think that covers Ah, the most frequent live listeners. Sorry, we can’t do you No city and state as usual. We will get this back end problem slapped and slapped. Ah, and fixed by next week. Gotta send podcast pleasantries. Never forget the podcast listeners, Whatever it is you’re doing painting your house washing your dishes at whatever time you’re listening. Whatever activity, whatever device, over 10,000 of you so grateful pleasantries to the many podcast listeners and affiliate affections to our multiple multiple AM and FM stations throughout the country. Listeners from the Finger Lakes in New York to Salem, Oregon, and lots of states in between affiliate affections to our many affiliate listeners. Okay, Adrian. Sergeant, thank you so much for holding on. I have Thio have to acknowledge all our all our listeners of whatever ilk and variety they come. They all get a special shout out. So thank you for your patients. Um, we have ah, I love these measures, but we gotta move on. Let’s let’s talk about the different stages. You’ve identified stages of the donor relationship and there are different strategies appropriate for each. First just please just lay out the but the, um, the stages are, and then we’ll come back and revisit.

[00:35:37.96] spk_0:
Well, there’s an awareness stays where people become aware of the organization. For the first time on exploration plays, people begin to kind of extra what the relationship might might mean for them on. Then you’re kind of deeper into the relationship where there begins to be an element of commitment. And then eventually, over time, you know, some relationships will come to an end. Of course not. Everybody’s gonna continue giving for forever. But what we don’t know how you treat different points in that journey can make a very big difference. Unsurprisingly, how loyal?

[00:35:42.01] spk_2:
Yes, and especially knowing that these micro engagements make a difference in loyalty. I going back to that because I admire it so much. I love it. Um, okay, we have a few minutes we can spend, you know, on each of the stages. But help us with awareness what’s going on? And what should we be doing to give our donors what they’re seeking at that stage?

[00:36:12.32] spk_0:
Well, at this point, I suppose we’re talking about people who haven’t given for the organization before. So we’re talking about individuals that you’re trying to list it, too. Get them to make a contribution for the first

[00:36:19.24] spk_4:
time on one of the things I say about fundraising in

[00:36:44.67] spk_0:
generally that some of what we generate is is really bland on. If you want to get people to give, you want them to give reasonable sums of money have to make him feel something. Logic leap to conclusions. Emotion leads the action on fundraisers. Don’t want conclusions. Progress this far in large one people take action.

[00:36:47.53] spk_2:
Yes.

[00:36:48.02] spk_4:
And so you’ve

[00:37:14.00] spk_0:
got to get people to feel something you’re gonna stimulate them to give to your organization on dhe. Too many particular kind of Sunday letters in this country. You know, a bland three or four paragraphs might inspire somebody was on the cusp of making a gift. Could, you know that’s not gonna happen. You’ve got to generate materials that Helen emotional story

[00:37:18.46] spk_2:
and telling

[00:37:19.42] spk_0:
a stipulate that all important.

[00:37:22.33] spk_2:
Okay, okay. Emotion. Um, it’s very intuitive, but we still see a lot of ah, bad practice out there.

[00:38:10.51] spk_0:
Yeah, way. Still see a lot of those very bland one page letters signed by the chief executive, maybe even a picture of the chief executive when Actually, there’s a lot to say around the nature of the cause that could be compelling. I’ll give you one example of a pact that’s doing the rankings again. It’s been around for years, But Amnesty International, they sent out a flat pain attached to a piece of card with a picture of somebody whose eyes have been gouged at on the strap line effectively says, What you hold in your hand is an instrument of torture when you read to your horror that actually why this person’s eyes against that is because some somebody somewhere in the world used the pain on this youngster Thio get guided either. And it’s horrible when

[00:38:23.39] spk_4:
you when

[00:38:38.46] spk_0:
you read it and you’re outraged. And of course, the pen can also be a mechanism for doing something about it. On immediately, I get youto feel the anger or feel the compassion for that child I talked you into the court was you understand why what I do is important at that point. And are you more likely to respond and make a gift? Of course.

[00:38:47.75] spk_5:
On you know, there

[00:38:48.92] spk_0:
are lots of other examples we could talk

[00:38:50.30] spk_2:
about. That solution

[00:38:51.55] spk_0:
is absolutely critical to getting people to get for the first time.

[00:39:01.27] spk_2:
That’s a brilliant one. Well done. Ah, Amnesty Bravo. I give you

[00:39:29.87] spk_0:
one other from kidney research in the UK. Um, there was a cent a pack that told the story of a little girl who has kidney disease on very likely won’t won’t live for many years. On the letter that was contained with the picture of this little girl was actually a letter from her kidney. Two little Katie apologizing for the fact that you know the kidney is not able to do its job

[00:39:32.83] spk_2:
and heart

[00:39:33.64] spk_0:
rending little

[00:39:34.22] spk_5:
store.

[00:39:56.08] spk_0:
But, you know, when you read it, you’ve given a real strong connection to that little girl, and you feel the heartbreak that her parents must be going through and immediately you do that. If you’ve got kids yourself, you get that lump in your throat when you think my goodness, you know I have to do something about that because that’s horrible. I don’t want the little girls like Katie not be heard, not be able to have the operation in the care they need.

[00:40:01.96] spk_2:
My okay. Uh, very touching. Let’s go to AA exploration. What’s happening there?

[00:42:35.84] spk_0:
Well, at that point in the relationship that they’re kind of getting to know you stage that’s taking place. Andi, I noticed now that there are a number of charities playing very creatively with three D communications s o, you see people less in the U. S. But another part of the world Act on shopping malls and high streets with three D headsets so that people can experience what it’s like to be in a school in Botswana, what it’s like to be in a hospital in northern Nigeria or wherever it might be in the world. So you can sort of transport people away for a few moments to be able to see the work that’s being done on the ground. I think those things are quite powerful here in states of one international aid organization that does that great powerfully with trailers, and it’ll take a trailer to a community. Then you can go inside that trailer and you can walk around a school in the developing world, and you can see the country experiences of those kids having so thinking in a very creative Ryan back. Taking people inside the cause, I think is really important don’t necessarily need to involve the latest technology. Certainly video pictures that take you into that world, I think very important on The other thing I would say at this point, is that you might begin to creep some choice in to the kind of relationship that you’re having with individuals I used to. When I was teaching this 20 years ago, I’d say, Well, it’s awful People choice from day one. So you you allow people to choose whether they want a hard copy newsletter Oh, our digital newsletter or no newsletter, but appeals or whatever since realized that it’s smarter to wait just a little bit until people get into the relationship so that they can take smarter decisions about actually what they want. Because if you ask me from Day One Adrian, do you want a newsletter? Then a green is almost certainly gonna say no, right, because newsletters sound boring, and I’m probably not gonna want that. But if you wait four or five months into the relationship, how regular newsletter? And actually I’ve realized that this is really quite moving or you know, the information that there is compelling and uninterested. Then I’m all like it say no. Actually, I’ll continue to receive So giving people a little bit of choice of the communications is a smart thing to do in relationship fundraising

[00:42:41.70] spk_2:
ago.

[00:42:42.22] spk_4:
But I

[00:42:51.20] spk_0:
would begin to creep that Emma’s. The relationship begins to develop over time, and I’d allow people to identify the kinds of things they want in the frequency.

[00:43:12.38] spk_2:
Okay, we’re gonna go out for a break. I have to mention then that the people who attended your early programs did not get the got screwed it better. Better to come to a later Adrian Sergeant presentation or Webinar. If you were doing Webinars back then, probably not know. 20 years ago, there was no there was no web. But But you get checked the guy out now because he’s learned from his own his own research. All right,

[00:43:19.01] spk_0:
Probably by the time I know exactly what I’m talking.

[00:43:23.65] spk_2:
Yes, that’ll be brilliant. Okay, there’s gonna be a gonna be a nursing home. It’s gonna get great great pro bono advice from you. Okay, let’s go out for a break. Adri and I will talk about the next stage commitment. And then we also talk about next steps for you and for Adrian’s research. Stay with us.

[00:44:13.09] spk_3:
It’s time for our last break. Relationships. Do you want journalists to know you so that when news breaks, they call you for the expertise they know that you’ve got turn to is former journalists, including for the Chronicle of Philanthropy. They know how to build relationships with journalists and get all the media to heart you right? That’s how you get great coverage when it matters. When the news breaks, you want to be called, or at least have your calls taken. They’re a turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads. More time for relationship fundraising.

[00:44:48.41] spk_2:
Um, I won’t let you know that you can get this research at pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising pursuant is one of the funders of this research and thankfully, through their sponsorship, I met Adrian. And, uh, we’re getting this enormously wonderful value on today’s show. So thank you. Pursuant. Thank you, Adrian. Welcome, pleasure. All right, let’s go to Ah, now we just have, like, five or six minutes left. So we need to be a little efficient without time. The next stage commitment. What’s what’s happening there?

[00:45:02.81] spk_4:
Well, in commitment, you’re really beginning then to build up that strong relationship bond with the supporter.

[00:45:08.35] spk_0:
One of the things I would be doing much earlier on at the point

[00:45:11.52] spk_4:
of acquisition, actually to gather information about the sorts of things that the individual is interested in. If you’ve got a nonprofit that has four or five different kinds of program, or I think that is going on. I’d be asking them early on in the relationship which of those things they’re particularly interested in? Because if I do nothing

[00:45:27.25] spk_0:
else that I’m gonna make sure that when I’ve got something going on in one of those spaces that

[00:45:41.94] spk_4:
they’re interested in, that they know about it and have the opportunity reported being respectful of people’s interests, I think is a particularly kind of key thing and building that commitment.

[00:45:43.48] spk_2:
Okay. And that on bat comes back to some of what you were saying about giving people a choice.

[00:45:54.08] spk_4:
Yeah, if you understand why people are supporting the organization that you know that that’s a powerful thing you can then use to shake the communication where they’re gonna follow.

[00:46:16.68] spk_2:
Okay, By the way, I created a false sense of urgency, but not deliberately. When I said five or six minutes, I was alone. We have more like nine minutes left, so don’t you have an extra three minutes. So take a nap and ah, and then we’ll pick up after a three minute nap. No, um what else we got You can laugh openly, so I should hope you Please weigh. Need somebody to be laughing,

[00:46:22.77] spk_4:
thinking that my students would probably appreciate

[00:46:30.40] spk_2:
you pass that on to them, but do it at the end of the class. Do it at the very end of the class. Um,

[00:46:35.39] spk_4:
yeah.

[00:46:40.95] spk_2:
Okay, um, anymore. Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:53.48] spk_4:
If I pick up on on the nation of commitment, I think one of the other things that people possibly don’t realize that came through from my report is that the value that donors get from the

[00:47:06.36] spk_0:
relationship shifts a bit of the relationship deepens. So initially, when you’ve got that really powerful emotional packed communication that you’re not gonna use, people are really interested in the impact on the beneficiary write all about. Did you do what you said you were gonna do

[00:47:24.93] spk_4:
and have no impact on that child’s life? Well, as the relationship deepens, the donor becomes at least as much concerned about what impact on the child. I mean, for my sense of who I am

[00:47:29.88] spk_2:
on.

[00:47:35.07] spk_4:
I think you know what we’re talking about. Then it’s something that psychologists call identity, and I think that’s gonna be the next big thing in fundraising because

[00:47:42.94] spk_0:
it’s a little different from understanding the motives that people have for supporting it. The motives for supporting little Katie

[00:47:48.57] spk_4:
and her kidney operation example. Identity is a bit different. Instead

[00:47:50.59] spk_0:
of what motivated used to support the organization. That stage you’re asking, what are people saying about themselves when they give? So what kind of person are they saying they are when they support

[00:48:05.83] spk_2:
my non profit Adrian York? Let

[00:48:05.97] spk_4:
me understand that

[00:48:07.45] spk_0:
we can begin to shape our communication to make them feel good about that being that kind of

[00:48:48.80] spk_2:
Gen Shang, your colleague at the Center for Sustainable Philanthropy, C E N T R E was on was on non profit radio talking about something that this makes me think of, Um, she had research from public radio when people would call in to public radio to make a gift. They were greeted with something along the lines of thank you for being a kind supporter or a loyal supporter or a generous supporter, and she had different adjectives and and tested different adjectives against outcomes and particularly among women. The right adjectives would increase the the women’s giving through through these phone calls. Does that sound familiar to you?

[00:48:58.47] spk_0:
Yeah, absolutely. And what you’re talking about there, of course, is one kind of identity. You’re talking about moral identity.

[00:49:04.53] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:49:11.25] spk_0:
so, you know, a lot of giving might be because I’m saying Adrian is a moral person. I might also

[00:49:11.83] spk_4:
be saying I’m a father. I’m a parent. I’m a cancer survivor. I’m a patriot. I’m

[00:49:21.38] spk_0:
a liberal I’ma environmentalist. I’ma, i’ma i’ma. And when you understand the identity that’s being articulated, then you make people feel good about that, right? Because if they’re gonna give, when they’re that kind of person, let’s Let’s tell them it’s good to be that kind of person and give him the kind of content that really reinforces that I don’t see it makes him feel good.

[00:49:37.85] spk_2:
Yeah.

[00:49:38.31] spk_0:
Remember we said earlier in this conversation, I think one

[00:49:40.77] spk_4:
of the things we need to

[00:50:27.43] spk_0:
do moving forward if toe worry about hitting the need of our beneficiaries so sure that we could be at least is concerned with how good we made our donors feel today on one of the keys to unlocking that is to understand what they’re saying about themselves when they give to our organization and what that support of us really means to their sense of who they are. And I was saying that the relationship deepens people away to what that really means for them and who they are. On dhe, we start to be looking for a relationship. So the time to meet some of our higher order needs. And by that I mean connected personal growth, self fulfillment,

[00:50:28.51] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:50:52.96] spk_0:
what has my support, my five years support of your non profit organization, say about my personal growth and had connected? I am with people that are important to me where I am incomes of myself fulfill it. If we start to think about right, that’s where our longer term supporters are. Maybe we can help them make some of those reflections on feeling better about their support of our organization is actually where we communicate across more than any other sex. Er, we should really be concerned with maximizing how good we can make our supporters feel.

[00:51:11.60] spk_2:
Okay, Adrian, I I have to stop our our substance because we gotta move to next steps and we just have a couple of minutes left, and I want to get to both parts of this. So what can a non profit do with this wealth of information?

[00:51:39.28] spk_0:
Well, if you visit if they visit the pursuant website, they’ll be out of download a copy off. There are really two key volumes to the to the research. One is lessons from relationship marketing. One is lessons from social psychology on. They could trial some of those ideas for themselves and their fundraising. So that’s the most obvious thing that folk might be to do at the end of the court. Go to the website, have a report, anything there?

[00:51:50.51] spk_2:
Okay, and again that it’s pursuant dot com slash relationship fundraising. That’s where you’ll find the four volumes. But Adrian, you’re recommending the 1st 2 as being most valuable. Sounds like,

[00:52:02.01] spk_0:
uh, that they’ve certainly covered most of material we talked about today,

[00:52:05.94] spk_4:
okay, and there’s

[00:52:09.87] spk_0:
a lot of other ideas from social psychology. The other thing that might like to do if they’re in an organization that of a reasonable size, we’re planning on doing a serious of field experiments over the next two years.

[00:52:20.70] spk_2:
Yes,

[00:52:37.59] spk_0:
we’ll work with a number of non profit partners on blitz there. Don’t find it too. 1/2 would continue to get the communications that they get now. The other half would get communications that bean tweaked in some way to help build up relations.

[00:52:39.91] spk_2:
OK, very quickly. What type of organization are you looking for?

[00:53:04.72] spk_0:
We’re looking for organizations that have groups have donors that are above 600 people s. So we’re not looking for organizations that are necessarily massive that we’re looking for. Organizations that have a reasonable number of donors in each of the segments they want to study on will be willing to work with a bearing the cost of doing those experiment.

[00:53:07.43] spk_2:
Okay,

[00:53:07.76] spk_0:
we’ll get the impact of that relationship approach on money raised on how good people feel.

[00:53:13.36] spk_2:
Okay. Oh, excellent. Getting to the feelings. Uh, what’s your email address? If people would like to submit their organization or talk to you more about being on in the research,

[00:53:31.63] spk_0:
it’s a green dot sergeant a d r i n dot s a r g e a n t at Plymouth y m o u t h don’t a c don’t you Kay?

[00:53:42.26] spk_2:
Excellent. Adrian, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much. So much valuable information thank you. Cheers.

[00:54:03.42] spk_3:
Next week, you’ll each tomb returns with how to select your auditor, and Jean Takagi will be with us in the studio. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony-martignetti dot com were sponsored by wegner-C.P.As Guiding you beyond the numbers. Wegner-C.P.As dot com Bye, Cougar Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for nonprofits tony-dot-M.A.-slash-Pursuant Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for your non profit. Your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. A creative producers.

[00:55:15.64] spk_1:
Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer. Shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this cool music is by Scotts. Dine with me next week for non profit radio Big non profit ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great talking alternative radio 24 hours a day, huh?