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Dahna hi there, it’s. Tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on september twenty eighth twenty twelve i’m your aptly named host. I do hope you were with me last week. Yes, i do. It was a bonanza alliances remember we had the true italian roseanna imbriano principle of our eye consulting encouraged you to secure strategic alliances that expand your marketing and save your marketing budget because they cost you nothing and claire’s cliches. Claire meyerhoff returned she’s, principal of the planned e-giving agency creative director of this very show, we talked about cliches for you to avoid and simpler words to replace them with. I didn’t have the heart to put her in jargon jail because she created it this way. The law of attraction to attract a major gift prospects and potential board members, you have to put your best foot forward to get what you are seeking. Melanie schnoll begun is managing director at morgan stanley private wealth management. She helps her ultra high net worth clients make charitable gif ts and get on boards, but she also has practical and valuable experience and advice that applies to any charity soliciting. A major gift or recruiting a boardmember and this interview with melanie was originally aired on april twentieth, two thousand twelve. Show also private benefits not dirty, but bad rules against private in your mint i like that word in your mint. Yeah, private in your mint xs benefit transactions and private benefit we’re not thinking friends with benefits private benefits these things keep your charity operating for the public good. Emily chan from the non-profit and exempt organizations law group is our monthly legal contributor, and she will explain the rules between the guests on tony’s take two my block this week one more week still seven tips for small shop planned e-giving because i think it’s important and i’ll talk about one of those tips are you on twitter while you’re listening? You could be if you open up another window, don’t don’t close the window you’re listening on now because you’ll lose me, but if you want open up another browser window on twitter, you can join the conversation there using the hashtag non-profit radio we’re about to take a break and then we’re going to go right into my interview with melanie schnoll begun, but first i gotta send live listener love to takashi in japan. Takashi, japan, newport, rhode island, and minneapolis, minnesota. Live, listener love going out to all of you. Stay with me after this break, it’s. The law of attraction, co-branding think dick tooting getting stinking thing. You’re listening to the talking alternative network e-giving. Nothing. Cubine joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller emotional freedom, and greg brayden will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve, save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot order, or h a n j dot net. Hi, i’m donna, and i’m done were certified mediators, and i am a family and couples licensed therapists and author of please don’t buy me ice cream are show new beginnings is about helping you and your family recover financially and emotionally and start the beginning of your life. We’ll answer your questions on divorce, family, court, co, parenting, personal development, new relationships, blending families and more. Dahna and i will bring you to a place of empowerment and belief that even though marriages may end, families are forever. Join us every monday, starting september tenth at ten am on talking alternative dot com. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Schnoll durney welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on tony martignetti non-profit radio with me now is melanie schnoll begun. She is a managing director and head of morgan stanley private wealth, management’s philanthropic services. She serves as a philanthropic advisor to families, foundations and family offices, working with the firm’s, ultra high net worth clients. She’s, the incoming board president of the juvenile diabetes research foundation of new york and bored treasure of the partnership for philanthropic planning. My show has been a sponsor at there. National conference on philanthropic planning the past two years. I’m very pleased that her work and her expertise brings her to the show. Melanie schnoll begun welcome. Thank you so much, tony. Just one correct that’s why i’m the current oh, you’re the could hurt the president of the board of juvenile diabetes research funding. I have to say that because the topic today that we’re gonna be talking about if i didn’t correct you about my party particular officer position on a board, i wouldn’t be selling the reason why i said or or why i think it’s so important to serve for constance he believe in so this is why i need an intern we’ve built you and i would both blame the intern, and it wouldn’t have reflected on you badly at all. What is your work around with ultra high net worth individuals? What are you doing with them? Well, i think that my work is providing meaning in their life. Many of our clients come to us because they’re in the middle of a transition. Perhaps they’ve sold their business, maybe there’s some interesting event that’s happened in their life, perhaps even a very sad event. That’s happened their life, and we help them identify how to be very strategic, purposeful and planned in there, giving for many clients when they think about making a contribution, even a large contribution, they don’t put a tremendous amount of thought into it. It might be a cause that they’ve heard about maybe one that they’re associated with, but they’re not doing a deep dive into the background and the backdrop of what’s really going on in that non-profit organization or what else there might be out there in the world, so we try and provide that professionalism, and then along the way, make our clients professionals. Themselves. What? What? What do you find motivates ultra high net worth and shortly, i’m gonna ask you, what is ultra high net worth? But we’ll work our way to that. But what do you think motivates their giving? Well for some clients, it’s because someone sick in their family for other clients, it’s because they’re say little more about that someone sick where the e-giving in memory of the person soon will be a memory will hopefully to find a cure. Hopefully the final work usually clients witness a major keynes in their attitude. What they used to buy with their wealth no longer becomes important and that’s because the second that someone has a diagnosis in their family of someone who’s ill the only thing they’re thinking about is identifying better treatment and perhaps secure. So we find often that we come to the philanthropic table with someone who has just been given that diagnosis scammer and is looking for the solution where so many of us just our resource is we go to the web and we learn as much as we can, but when we’re talking about people with extraordinarily extraordinary wealth that can actually invested. In a possible cure that’s what they want to buy it, they want to buy the cure. I think what’s shocking and disappointing in many instances is that clients, no matter how wealthy they are, find out that they can’t necessarily buy everything. So it is that deep investment for the long term, perhaps not even for the benefit of their family member who might be ill but for others to find a cure better treatment. Better resource is that might bring some of our clients to the table. Others are just deeply invested in their community. They want better cultural organizations. They want better education for their kids. Certainly in new york, that’s a very big issue about private school, public school. And as your children are going through that educational problem situation, where are there enough of fine schools in new york to send our kids to? In many instances, they find that they that there’s not so. Our clients are interested in identifying. How can they be the solution to the educational drama issue? We have just a couple minutes before break. What? What what’s the definition of ultra high net worth. What is how much money? Are we talking about, well, a lot more money than i have? I’ve always said that i really hope to one day be able to be my own client, but for us, ultra high net worth is really defined as clients who have a net worth of twenty five million and more. The reality is that it’s a very open span for those clients, though, with twenty five million and mohr, they usually have a significant out a significant amount of money that they could do something incredibly impactful with their philantech, um, on how much i’m wondering, how much does somebody who has that kind of wealth walk around within their wallet, like, like i have typically, like thirty or forty dollars in my wallet, but so i would probably not be confused for ultrahigh worth of net worth. If someone stole my wallet, i probably wouldn’t i probably couldn’t get away with that, but, you know, like, how much do you think they have just on an average day in the well, how much do you think that carry around? Probably probably no cash. I think that i think that most about very wealthy people typically put most their stuff on cards today. So you know what? Actually, i would go after your wallet if i knew that you were on the street. So just watch thirty or forty bucks, so i was ready. I was ready to go, like, three or four hundred in my wallet, and then it almost be worth it to lose that much if i could get two muggers to think that i’m ultra high net worth. Yeah, yeah. Now they would share the story of the ultra high net worth guy, you know, among their prison friends. And i could, you know, get known that way. But i’m going about it the wrong way. You got to go down so well, no cash. Now, we need to talk about prison reform as faras labbate. Right? So so how can you make sure that those who come out of prison then are better off than when they went in and are telling the story of twenty martignetti being ultra? Yeah, absolutely. We have to take a break when we return. Of course melanie schnoll begun stays with me, and we’ll continue talking about the law of attraction. So i hope you stay with us talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Dahna are you fed up with talking points, rhetoric everywhere you turn left or right? Spin ideology, no reality, in fact, its ideology over intellect, no more it’s time, join me, larry shop, a neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven easter for the ivory tower radio in the ivory tower will discuss what’s important to you society, politics, business, it’s, provocative talk for the realist and the skeptic who want to know what’s, really going on. What does it mean? What can be done about it? So gain special access to the ivory tower. Listen to me, larry. Sure you’re neo-sage tuesday nights nine to eleven new york time go to ivory tower radio dot com for details. That’s, ivory tower radio, dot com e every time i was a great place to visit both entertainment and education listening. Tuesday nights nine to eleven. It will make you smarter. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio. My guest is melanie schnoll begun, and melanie let’s talk about it. When charity’s air trying to solicit gif ts you have your clients who are ultra high net worth, but you have, i think, very valuable advice for any charity that’s trying to solicit any major gift, which maybe five hundred dollars or thousand dollars for some charities. What what’s your you see sort of faulty proposals a lot, don’t you? Yeah, i think that non-profits believe they understand who the donor is, and they prepare something in advance. That’s a critical error, you never know who that donor is, the famous saying. If you’ve met one philanthropist, you’ve met one philanthropist, so we try and tiki non-profits to perform a radical listening, and that means spending the time to really understand why a donor may want to be a donor to their organization. The time will be incredibly valuable both for the non-profit but even more importantly, for the donor, when a donor has the opportunity to talk about what they care about, why they care about the organization’s mission, you hear things you really hear things inside of that conversation inside the conversation in the donor’s hat so radical listening is a skill that we teach non-profits to practice. And that skill is something that serves both board members. It serves the staff of non-profit organizations, and at the end, you’re really giving a service to a donor. I think that most of my clients find that no one listens to them well enough. Yeah, but but a charity that’s that’s soliciting a major gift. However they define that might feel that they’re not going to get another meeting with this person. They go one shot. We finally got the meeting. We got forty five minutes. Way better. We’ve got to lay it all out because we may never get a second meeting that’s, right? So you walk into every meeting with the idea that if i really listen to this donor, i’m going to get the second meeting. If you walk in with a proposal thinking that you know who this person is and what they want to offer your organization, you’re probably guaranteeing yourself that you’re not going to see that donor again. So does it always work? It may not always work if you begin practicing it. Well, if you spend so much time performing discovery on that donor both in the dance of the meeting and then, while you’re sitting at that meeting, i think over time you’ll find that your practice as a fundraiser will dramatically improve. So you’re suggesting that if you can move the donor while while radically listening, then you’ll get a follow-up meeting brightstep my suggestion is, if you are performing radical listening, you will move the donor, okay, okay, even without introducing your mission and your work in the first in the first meeting, right? Because you’re going to hear from the donor what the donor wants to dio instead of telling the donor with a non-profit wants the donor and you do know there’s a threshold interest, otherwise you wouldn’t have gotten the first meeting would have gotten the meeting would have gotten the meeting. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an important skill it’s something that has been written about andi, i think that we can’t live in that fear fundraisers can’t live in that fear that this is joan, or will not be interested in talking to me again. In fact, most of the conversation is not a conversation most of the conversation is letting that ultra high network don’t talk to you, and you’re just there. To listen or again, it could be any level donor, and i’ve had where we have a regular prospect. Research contributor maria simple is on, and she and i have talked about the value of the face to face meetings, and she’s a professional prospect researcher who knows all the web webb resource is, you know, but she still recognizes that the greatest prospect research comes from a good, good conversation, absolutely and and and and he’s absolutely right face-to-face looking the donor in their eyes. In many instances, i think being on the donor’s being in the donor’s territory so a place where they’re comfortable, where it’s an environment either their office, they’re home, maybe somewhere where they’ve recommended that they like to go for coffee. Usually i recommend going for a glass of wine because, you know, does it doesn’t hurt, but her loosen up? Yeah, exactly. I’ve tried to get sam lee boards to have wine here, but he’s not doing it now you’re not really radical listening, right? I just radically demand thanks, you know, but i’m not a charity, so i think i’m exactly only have third example, everything was but you only have thirty. Dollars you’re while you are charity ticket, you can’t get a decent bottle of wine for thirty bucks. So then the careful listening radical listening is goingto inform your valuable proposal when that when it’s the right time, that’s, right meds and the valuable proposal some hints that we give to non-profits as they’re preparing that that proposal brief three points know what are the key issues that you’ve heard? The donor has said to you, the areas where they’re really interested in supporting on ly talk about those areas, right? Putting in a proposal for stuff that you haven’t heard because the organization needs it, but the donor doesn’t want it what’s the likelihood of that getting funded so three typically are the most that we suggested a proposal going backto a donor that you know what they’re interested in, you’re going to get a much better response. Bilich other tips for the for the proposal itself for the written document, you brief couple pages, right? A couple of pages in fact, most of our clients today, they don’t want to read stuff, right? And they fear that if the non-profit is spending so much time and resource is preparing proposals, then they may not be spending the money that i’m giving to the organization i’m doing. The work so in many instances, it’s brief short. In fact, non-profit should ask the donor. How would you like me to prevent to present a proposal? Is it isn’t even something that you want in writing? Or should we just have another conversation? I would welcome that second conversation so that now the second meeting, the donors prepared to do their own radical listening, right? Is there a problem? Sometimes when a donor gets sort of passed off from somebody who knows the work very well to the fund-raising professional who’s goingto the closer it’s like it’s, like in a in a car dealership going to which i have very bad memories of a child. Buying my first car was awful, but at a car dealership going from the salesmen to the finance manager exactly going that office and the door gets closer, you know, but being passed from the maybe the executive director or someone who knows the work well to the closer, the fundraiser doesn’t something get lost there sometimes. Yeah. What? What gets lost is the gift. So no one wants to be handed off everyone in that non-profit organization, both from voluntary leadership to professional. Staff should be able to talk about programming if the executive director is the one who has contact with that donor. If it’s a boardmember who has the contact with that donor, or if it is the professional fundraiser that has the contact with that donor, the conversation could be between those two people bringing others include others in the conversation. But don’t hand a donor. Roth. I have ah ah, client situation that happened with a large university hospital. Incredible organization doing tremendous work. And this client’s unfortunately this this medical institution was not able to save the life of our client’s husband. But he wanted to honor him. She wants to memorialize him. And the doctor who was treating her husband was the individual that he wanted to leave a contribution for. So that he could continue doing the great work that he began with her clothes with her with her husband. Many of the conversations happened between her and the doctor. It was intimate. She could see clearly what she wanted to accomplish. And then when it came down to the clothes, she was handed to a development director. Ah, fine development director. Someone who’s spent years. In the business. But it was so disconnected and she felt that were there. Were you there for the meeting? So i was there after the fact also, i came in to help save the gift. Okay? And we this this donor-centric working with us after he felt that brush off from the doctor and it was completely unintentional. So totally unintentional. It’s just protocol just about innocuous handing off. But it’s, the way things are done, he wasn’t supposed to close that’s someone else’s responsibility. So what? I teach both boards as well as professional staff, it’s, everyone’s, responsibility clothes. If you’re the one who has the relationship, you need to be confident enough to make the ask. And you need to be prepared enough too close. And if it’s, i guess if it’s a really technical gift which it could be a large dollar amounts, then at least include the in your case, the doctor but generally the program the work expert in the conversations don’t leave him or her out in the hall while now the professional closer, you know, goes through his is her stick that’s, right? And you know it. The attorneys thie accountants all the financial advisor’s. All of those professionals need to play a role in the process if the donor wants him to be included in the conversations about the specifics of the gift that’s great, but there’s the technical aspects of giving and then there’s the emotional aspects of giving and what i see getting lost. It’s, it’s, it’s never technique, right? You could draft a perfect trust. It could be absolutely accurate. The document itself could get an a plus plus in any fine law school. But if the donor is not connected emotionally to the gift, it doesn’t matter what the document says. Melanie schnoll begun is managing director, head of morgan stanley, private wealth, management’s philanthropic services and we’re talking about the law of attraction basically had a look good when you’re either soliciting a gift or soliciting someone for boardmember ship, which is what i’d like tio transition to now, okay, appealing to a board appealing to a potential boardmember. Since you’re working with ultra high net worth people, i’m going to guess that sometimes there approached because they’re very wealthy. And how do they feel about that? Yeah, so in the law of attraction, it’s it’s rarely because they’re really good looking now. Many of them might be hot tonight, but it’s usually because they’re wealthy so similar to the idea of marriage. Right? So when i got married, i married for love. I married for looks there’s, you know there’s a little bit of money to that’s all so that’s, always wonderful when you think that before you can say sex on the show is this the part where you were thinking of coming? It’s coming, it’s coming, it’s coming sex is you have to have a little foreplay before sex. So it’s getting there russia you’re right. That’s been my problem. You’re russian it you’re as well among others, but let’s keep it let’s. Keep it focused on alt-right network from latto let’s. Take this conversation on the bed here. Right? Right, right. So the opportunity of creating a marriage between a potential boardmember and an organization it’s incredibly important. So the the reason donors believe that? Serving a non-profit is an appropriate step for them is because they’ve been courted well, it’s, because they find the organization incredibly attractive and good looking it’s because they want to spend a lot of time with that organization because they want to see that organization grow and really achieve incredible impact very similar to marriage alive know the problem with marriage is is half the men in divorce, so the same is true with non-profit port service, you’re excited at the beginning, right? You can’t wait for that next kiss can’t wait for the next date and then quickly within the first year, if the non-profit doesn’t really know how to work well, play well, dine the donor well doesn’t understand where they like to go to how they like to vacation. If the non-profit doesn’t know how to use the donor to his or her maximum capacity, they get bored, they get disenchanted and the worst thing is donors cheats like just like what happens in many families that fall apart, they begin looking at other opportunities that really do want them thinking that it’s better on the other side there feeling remorse about having joined this board. Everything was great in the beginning that right? The honeymoon stage, but about exactly right, exactly right? So spend your time non-profit should spend their time thinking about whether or not this is a person they want to marry. Is this a person that will bring value to this relation? Can we grow together? And what do we each bring to the relationship? It has to be more than just money again, just like many families, right? If all you’re going after is the wealth than a marriage for many, many years will fall apart, you know the boardmember potential boardmember wants to know that they’re going to be used effectively. That’s right? You’ve utilized way. Don’t use board members. We usually large numbers. Okay. Okay. Um, taking over the show? No. She, um let’s. See, so but a lot of times, board charities need an expertise. We need an accountant or we feel we need an attorney. And in some specialty real estate, maybe or something. So they’re seeking that profession. But that is contrary to what you’re recommending. Right? So i think what boardmember sze need to be on? What boards need to do to get the right. People on their team is they have to look for people different than themselves. What happens with most non-profit boards is you look around the board table and everyone’s the same right, because it’s, a friend introducing another friend. They come from similar backgrounds, specially smaller charity it’s, a friend of the executive director of the founder, absolutely especially small non-profits and specifically, when they’re getting off the ground, right. So it’s, the founder, it’s, the founders best friend, its founder, sister, and perhaps someone who worked for them at one point time or an intern. So non-profits really need to think about how can we bring true diversity to our board? Professionalizing aboard must include accountants, financial advisors, lawyers, but you can’t just look at them as a lawyer, you need to look at them as a lawyer that has a mission that there interest must be tethered, if not tied to the nonprofit organization, that they’re a lawyer that’s their skill set. But ultimately we know that even if they weren’t a lawyer, that they really support the work of that organization. I wantto have you bring something out that we had talked about that very wealthy people are not un interested in working for smaller midsize working among being utilized by small and midsize charities. Is that right? Absolutely. I think that many very wealthy clients believe that they can be better utilised in a small nonprofit organization. In fact, that’s where most of their money came from. So the majority of our client base started their own closely held businesses. And they realise what it means to rule up their sleeves to get dirty. They love that kind of opportunity and nonprofit organizations. So when you come into these large non-profit organizations very bureaucratic, very political. So many individuals that look like them. So it is even mohr attractive for wealthy people to see that you know, my gift. We’ll make a significant difference here, but my time may even be more valuable. Tulani schnoll begun is a managing director and head of morgan stanley. Private wealth, management’s philanthropic services. Melanie, thanks very much for being in the studio. Being a guest, tony. Thanks for having me. It’s. Been a pleasure. Got more live listener love tokyo. Welcome. Seoul, south. Korea. Welcome and chandler, arizona, also, and from minneapolis, my thoughts are with you, the very tragic shooting just yesterday. Very sad thinking about you in minneapolis, minnesota. Now we take a break, and when we return, tony’s take to stay with me. Talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. Joined the metaphysical center of new jersey and the association for hyre. Awareness for two exciting events this fall live just minutes from new york city. In pompton plains, new jersey, dr judith orloff will address her bestseller, emotional freedom, and greg brady will discuss his latest book, deep truth living on the edge. Are you ready for twelve twenty one twelve? Save the dates. Judith orloff, october eighteenth and greg brady in november ninth and tenth. For early bird tickets, visit metaphysical center of newjersey dot order or a nj dot net. Are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you, too? He’ll call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight, one eight, three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Duitz no. Schnoll hi, i’m kate piela, executive director of dance, new amsterdam. And you’re listening to tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Time now for tony’s, take two and then after that, it will be emily chan. We’ll be talking about private benefits not dirty, but bad on tony’s take two for my blogged this week is what i mean to be saying i kept up seven tips for small shop planned giving an extra week because i think small shops need encouragement and it’s important. And one of the one of the seven that i’ll talk about this week is just start simple. I had made the point last week that there is great opportunity for small shops and that you shouldn’t be intimidated by planned e-giving the best place to start is very simple gif ts charitable bequests in people’s will and everybody needs a will. Everybody understands what a will is on dh for some small, real small charities that might be the place to stop you might that might be your whole plan’s e-giving program encouraging bequests in a will. If you want to go a little further, you can encourage people to name you as a beneficiary of life insurance policies or their ira or pension. These are all those those air, very simple, being named as a beneficiary. You just encourage your, um your prospects to fill out a change of beneficiary form that they get from the company that administers there, ira or pension, whatever it is it’s very, very simple to do so. One of the seven tips that’s on my block is start simple and my blog’s is that tony martignetti dot com that is tony’s take two for friday, the twenty eighth of september and the forty first show of the year before. Before i bring in emily chan, i gotta send live listener love to my hometown. Well, my current town, new york, new york. Thank you. Finally, we don’t get too many listeners from new york. Where is everybody? Emily chan is a attorney and she is an attorney at neo-sage non-profit and exempt organizations law group, which is in san francisco. She’s, also a principal contributor to the non-profit law blawg she’s, the american bar association’s twenty twelve outstanding young non-profit lawyer i’m anxious to see what she’s going to do in twenty thirteen. You can follow her on twitter at emily chan and i’m very glad that she is one of the regular contributors to the show emily welcome. How are you? I’m doing great. Gene is not going to be with us this week right now. He’s in baltimore right now, working with one of our clients. Okay, so i have ah, costello, but no abbott that’s. All right. Um, we’re talking about private benefits in a moment, but first we want to wrap up a little bit about fiscal sponsorships. There’s a little more. You wanted to leave listeners with from from last month? Yeah, just to wrap it up, i think there’s maybe three things that i want to remind listeners about with physical sponsorship. We were able to talk about it in that short amount of time, but it is a very complicated concept, and more often than not, we see people doing it wrong as opposed to write. So if i have three tips for non-profits, that would be one. Definitely. Do your homework. You get that other one. Give me the cold in book on six weeks to do it right. I read about it. Talk to people to make sure that your organization has a process for oversight. That’s a big area where we see organizations dropping the ball. They just practically speaking can’t do it. And then finally, if you are going to enter into physical sponsorship agreement, make sure you get that contract review because that’s defying everything and all of your rights and the terms and conditions that both parties are agreeing to. Thanks very much, emily. Okay, we want to make sure we set the stage correctly for people on fiscal sponsorship now with private benefits. What are we’re not talking about friends with benefits, my innuendo? Because, you know, that’s just the way i think, for some reason, what are we? What are we concerned about with respect to private benefits? Private benefit is really one of the core concept for public charities because they’re organized for charitable purposes for public purposes and deserved charitable classes. So there’s actually three rules that helped to govern organizations to make sure that they’re in compliance with the federal tax laws and keeping there five, twenty three tax exemption, the three rolls are the private benefit doctrine, the private interment doctrine. And then finally, the access benefit transaction roll some hoping today we can just do a kind of a primer on these three rules to give organizations of better understanding about maybe some areas where they’re starting to tiptoe into violation. Okay, it’s. Interesting. You say primer? I say i always say primer, you know, that’s interesting i could do to short out. You do long i interesting. I don’t know which okay, maybe depends where you go to law school. I don’t know. Where did you go to law school. You see hastings, you see hastings university? Okay. I went to philadelphia temple. So could be a different philosophy thing. Maybe prime ing and priming. Ok, let’s, stay prim and proper when our prime ing and priming and talk about the private benefit doctrine what is what is that one? So this is the broadest rule in its applicability. It’s really? Just saying that in order to be organized exclusively and operated primarily for your exam purposes, you need to serve public purposes as opposed to private interests. So what this mean, really? Some examples would be entering into unfavorable or unreasonable contracts with third parties. It may be serving too small. The class of beneficiaries. Okay, wait, wait. Let’s, let ze unpack this little bit for listeners so unfavourable or unreasonable contracts. What? What does that? What does that look like? You? Yeah, so for example, paying more than fair market value for goods and services. Okayo are agreeing to certain terms and conditions that are just to the detriment of the organization, really giving more to that third party than the organization is getting in return. Okay? And that could be any any vendor doesn’t have tto be anybody who has a relationship to the we’re going to get to those but doesn’t have to have any relationship to the charity at this point right in this in-kind benefits and that’s quite the private benefit rules really the broader because we’re talking about any person, just any person out there saying that you cannot serve their private interests. You really deserve that public interest, okay, right, you’re enriching them unreasonably, and so your public benefit is being eroded, right? And it’s currently the iris acknowledges, though you know with e-giving public benefit, there may be some private interests that benefit from that. So the key for the private benefit doctrine is that any private interests that are served, they need to be incidental. So thie irs looks at it both on it qualitative perspective and saying it’s just a byproduct of serving that public benefit as well, quantitative so that private interests being served needs to be in a substantial amount as compared to the public benefit on an example would be an organization chooses to help with the restoration of a lake for public use. Yeah, and there’s certain properties that live around the lake, those properties are going to increase in value if that lake is improved. But that’s a byproduct of fixing this lake so that the public can come in and use it as a public space. And when they compare it, then hopefully thie value that’s being given to these homeowners that live on the lake, hopefully insubstantial as compared to the public benefit that’s being served by fixing this lake. Okay, way sent. I sent live listener love out to minneapolis, minnesota. That could apply right there because it’s, the land of ten thousand lakes that’s very timely example. Very, very bright. You see, hastings, very good law school. You’re the outstanding young attorney in two thousand twelve, so i’m not surprised at all. You’d make that connection. Okay, so is this. So this is sort of related to ensure ensuring your exam purpose the same as what the irs does when they initially evaluate whether you’re entitled to a tax exempt five oh one c three status, right? This is just sort of same evaluation, but ongoing absolutely and so for organizations out there that are applying for their toxic status, private benefit is a big red flag for the irs in delaying the application or maybe even a denial of exemption. So it’s important to understand this when you’re developing your programs and you’re describing it on your application and also thinking into the future about how you’re going to operate, right? It’s not it’s, not enough to just do it at the outset, meet meet, meet the criteria in the beginning, get your approval and then lose. Lose, i guess lew’s mission focus. Really? I mean, you are supposed to be a public charity, right? Public benefit. Ok. And the organization’s record on this well on their annual information returns so that’s another area that even after they get their exemption, that they need to be cognizant of this rule, and understand that their programs need teo being compliant with this doctrine. So it’s part of the form nine ninety or the nine. Ninety easy there’s an explicit question are you serving? Would say no to that? Yeah, the questions they ask, though, certainly can reveal those types of facts. So when you describe your mission or you describe your biggest program on these are the things that will come up also looking at payments, you know what parties do you have contracts with? What kind of relationship you have with them? All of this information just kind of comes out through the form because it asked so many questions. Okay, interested? I want to send live listener love teo someone who joined us from brisbane, australia live love look live love going out to brisbane. Emily, there is, uh, anything else you want to say about the private benefit doctrine that that broadest of the three, i think that’s i think that’s a good start. You feel you’ve exhausted that. Ok, ok, i’m not exhausted. I’m not saying i’m exhausted. I’m just exhausted the topic way, tio. Now you have the prohibition against private in your mint. I like that word in your mitt spelled with an area of course in your mint is that? How you would say in your mentor, do you say in norman? And you would say in your mind, okay, i thought, maybe hastings, you say it differently than, like primary dreamer. Ok, what’s this what’s, this mean private in your mint? So this this doctrine actually comes from the language in five twenty three of the internal revenue code, which says that no part of him, that earnings of the exempt organization can unearth the benefit of any private shareholder or individuals in your and your to benefit right private, individual or shareholder. Okay. In other words, it means that the organization cannot give a disproportionate share of benefit, too. Specific people and what’s different about this rule on the main difference from the private benefit rules. But it’s looking at just a specific group of people what they call insiders, which are persons who are in a position to exercise significant influence over the organization. So directors the officers and directors right? Sanders to write. And so the most common example of where these problems who comes up is with excessive executive compensation because you’re giving a disproportionate share of benefit to someone who has significant this’s something that we see in the press in the in the popular press a lot. Where a million dollars, nine and a half dollars salaries. And meanwhile, the organization’s cutting the programs. Okay, i mean, it’s certainly an important issue, and it does make people very angry. And when they give their money to the station to find out that you know the disproportionate share going to insiders who have control over the organization but to give to be fair to it may not be a disproportionate share. Me, if it’s a big enough charity, a million dollars salary could be very well justified, right? Yeah, absolutely. Andi, we have just just, uh, let you know, we just have a minute before break or so okay. Um, and i just wanted to point out to there’s other ways that this comes up. For example, paying excessive red paying again less than fair market value for goods and services from an insider. The greg mortenson issue. With central asia institute. There’s. A lot of speculation about whether about organization violated private interment rules because they paid so much to support his book signings and, you know, the publication of his book. And there was a question of what did they actually get in return? There’s. Lots of ways that private interment can happen, even though what we see most commonly is executive compensation issues. All right, we’re going to take a break when we returned. Of course, emily chance days we listen, we keep talking about private benefits, not dirty, but back. Stay with us. Dahna hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it it better because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Have you ever considered consulting a road map when you feel you need help getting to your destination when the normal path seems blocked? A little help can come in handy when choosing an alternate route. Your natal chart is a map of your potentials. It addresses relationships, finance, business, health and, above all, creativity. Current planetary cycles can either support or challenge your objectives. I’m montgomery taylor. If you would like to explore the help of a private astrological reading, please contact me at monte at monty taylor dot com let’s monte m o nt y at monty taylor dot com how’s your game want to improve your performance? Focus and motivation. Then you need a spire athletic consulting stop, second guessing yourself. Move your game to the next level, bring back the fun of the sport, help your child build confidence and self esteem through sports. Contact dale it aspire, athletic consulting for a free fifteen minute power session to get unstuck. Today, your greatest athletic performance is just a phone call away at eight a one six zero four zero two nine four or visit aspire consulting. Dot vp web motivational coaching for athletic excellence aspire to greatness. Hey, hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com. Welcome back, emily there’s. No there’s, no rule against doing business with boardmember sze businesses though, right? Of course, no there’s not, but because of these types of private benefit rules certainly you want to be cautious that’s an organization and make sure that you understand what is appropriate and what wouldn’t be appropriate, even if it’s the terms and conditions there all there you also have to think about how the public’s going to do it, and how your supporters and also your critics so that all gets taken into account as well. Okay, are there’s some measures that we can use for what’s what’s market value what’s appropriate if let’s say a boardmember is offering office space for rent for the organisation. But what do we do? A market analysis what’s your advice? Yeah, those are all great. Basically you want to take all the steps to show that it’s being negotiated at arm’s length? I’m getting independent appraisal having let’s say if the contract approved, i haven’t reviewed by an attorney you know, documenting in your meeting minutes what it is that you’re considering and why this is justified and why this is really in further in severe exam purposes. All of those steps are going to help protect the organization on it is important because under this doctrine, there’s no de minimus exception. You know, we talked about with the private benefit doctrine that you can have incidental private interests served with the private and merriment doctrine where we’re just looking at insiders it’s an absolute rule and the way that it’s written on the irish i can actually take away your tax exempt status if you violate it. Now we don’t see that happen very often, but let’s, hold off on that. So so there’s. So when you say there’s no de minimus testing me even just a little bit over, say, ah, market value or a little bit over what would be an arm’s length transaction could be in violation of the prohibition against private inhuman. Yeah. In theory, yes, at one dollars. Okay, okay. You’re right. We don’t see it happen a lot because that is a very city air penalty for let’s. Say something that can be corrected or something. That’s. Very small. An amount. So what the irish did they developed. What is the third rule? The excess benefit transaction rolls. On basically what this does is it creates an immediate sanctions so that the irs doesn’t have to go so far as to i’m takeaway tax exempt got it intermediate sanctions okay, immediate sanctions, so this fool is going to sound very similar, but there are a little there are some differences on this school basically says that an organization cannot provide an economic benefit. Tio what i’m going to call it disqualified person, which i’ll explain in a second have exceeds the consideration that the organization is receiving in return, so disqualified person is similar to the concept of an insider, but they want to use a different term for it. You could have just said the supplies for insiders, there was someone and there’s a little nuance to it, it’s someone who has a substantial influence over the organization within the last five years. So we’re thinking of the same type of people, though high level managers, directors hyre speeding, please let’s say papa upleaf founders the same types of people that they choose to call it disqualified person under this role on basically if it found that there’s an excess benefit transaction, the penalty now is an excise tax. So it’ll be twenty five percent of the excess benefit tax to the disqualified person. You received that. Okay, let’s, unpack this a bit. All right. So it’s paid by the individual, right? It’s paid by that disqualified person to dp. Okay. And they could actually get bumped to a two hundred percent tax if they don’t correct it. Ok, ok. Also important for organizations is an organizational manager can also get taxed if they knowingly and willingly approved that transaction as tax tax as an individual. You mean yes. Ten percent of the excess benefit up tio twenty thousand dollars. Okay, so the organization would be prohibited in these cases from from paying these excise taxes for the individual. And it would be inappropriate for the organization to pay the taxes because there are certain indemnification that an organization can provide again, this is going to be a state law that california, for example, a breach of your fiduciary duty takes you out of being qualified indemnification. So here, if you’re you knowingly and willingly approving a gn xs benefit transaction, that certainly, you know, raises the concern about reaching a fiduciary duty and having approved that and so, organizations again doing their homework, getting reliable third party dahna toe look at asking for professionals for, you know their ex offgrid opinion on the matter. Those are all things that help protect the organizational managers from ever finding themselves in this situation on def, they if the charity pride tried to pay the excise tax, that could be in violation of the prohibition against private in your mint, keep going. Good. It’s a grand circle. Okay, we have to leave it there. Oh, god. You have one more point. You can make it a few seconds. Yeah, organisations would also look up and you’re going to put me in jarring in jail a procedure called a rebuttable presumption of reason. Profnet oh, my goodness. She does this with ten seconds left. Idea rebuttable presumption of reasonable this. Go ahead. Googling it’s a three step process that organization’s community based we give some the presumption that they’ve done a reasonable entered into a reasonable transaction with these disqualified people. So we don’t need to get into the details but write it down. Look it up. Okay. Say the phrase one more time. Rebuttable presumption of reasonable next-gen multi-channel. Is an attorney at the non-profit exempt organizations latto group in san francisco and our one of our regular legal contributors. You can follow her on twitter at emily chan. Thanks for being on. Emily would talk to you in just a couple weeks. You’ll be back, thank you very much. My thanks also, of course, teo melanie schnoll begun and the people at her company at morgan stanley who help arrange that interview next week nufer ends at events andrea nirenberg is president of nierenberg consulting group. She wants you to deepen and broaden the relationships that you create with people who come out to your events. We’re going to go deep and broad sounds promising and amy sample ward she’s going to kick off her new exalted status as social media contributed to the show, you’re going to be on once a month. We’re going to talk next week about designing for engagement, andi that maybe a jog in jail before she even gets on the show? I don’t know, maybe i’m a take her mug shot between now and next friday, designing for engagement, social media, new social media contributor amy sample ward shall i unpack it? For you, trust me, have you joined? Are linked in group? We have members from galveston, texas, dubuque, iowa, and muncie, indiana, where ball mason jars come from. Are you in the linked in group? You ought to be because you can continue the conversation with guests at that site. I do it. I asked questions follow-up questions, and in fact, i have a perfect one for emily. If you’re going to talk a little about that rebuttable presumption on the linked in group, i have a new fund-raising fundamentals podcast up just up this week, recruiting the best volunteers for your fund-raising this is the podcast that i do for the chronicle of philanthropy, you’ll find that ten minute podcast on itunes it’s, also on the chronicle of philanthropy website and again, it’s called fund-raising fundamentals wishing you best luck. Good luck, the way performers do around the world last week was italian in cool. Oh, allah bolena, and i’m wondering if you are still in the ass of the whale, you’re gonna have to stay there for another week because not till next week. We’ll have a new language lesson for you and a new way performers wish. Each other luck. Our creative producer was claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is line producer shows. Social media is by regina walton of organic social media and the remote producer of tony martignetti non-profit radio is john federico of the new rules. Oh, how i hope you will be with me next friday, one to two p m eastern, at talking alternative broadcasting, which is always at talking alternative dot com. I didn’t think that shooting the ending. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. E-giving e-giving it’s. Hi, this is nancy taito from speaks been radio speaks been radio is an exploration of the world of communication, how it happens in how to make it better, because the quality of your communication has a direct impact on the quality of your life. Tune in monday’s at two pm on talking alternative dot com, where i’ll be interviewing experts from business, academia, the arts and new thought. Join me mondays at two p m and get all your communications questions answered on speaks been radio. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three the conscious consultant helping conscious people be better business people. You’re listening to talking alternative network at www dot talking alternative dot com now broadcasting twenty four hours a day. Hey! This is tony martignetti athlete named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. 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Improving communications, that’s. The answer. Dahna