Transcript for 456_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190906.mp3 Processed on: 2019-09-07T00:59:44.134Z S3 bucket containing transcription results: transcript.results Link to bucket: s3.console.aws.amazon.com/s3/buckets/transcript.results Path to JSON: 2019…09…456_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190906.mp3.630559234.json Path to text: transcripts/2019/09/456_tony_martignetti_nonprofit_radio_20190906.txt Hello and welcome to Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% on her aptly named host. Oh, I’m glad you’re with me. I’d go through valvular us if you told me the twisted idea that you missed today’s show. New Power. Why do some leap ahead while others fall behind in our chaotic, connected age? Co author Henry Timms, president and CEO of 92nd Street. Why has the answers from his book New Power This originally aired June 8th 2018 on Tony Take Too Bad Data at Consumer Reports Responsive by Wagner C. P A. Is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wagner cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software The Nolly Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits? Tony got em a slash Cougar Mountain for a free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to DOT CEO. Here is New Power with Henry Timms. I’m very glad to welcome back Henry Timms to the studio. He is co author with Jeremy heimans of the new book New Power. How Power Works in Our Hyper Connected World. and how to make it work for you. He’s president and CEO of 92nd Street. Why he’s cofounder of giving Tuesday. Henry is a visiting fellow at Stanford University’s Center on Philanthropy and Civil Society. He’s at Henry Timms, and the book is at this is new power dot com. Welcome back to studio. Henry Timms is very nice to be back. I’m very glad to have you. It’s been a couple of years we were last time talking about, I don’t know. Maybe it was the third year of giving Tuesday or something like that. Back in the infant days of giving, choose to indeed, which is Ah, a new power organization. New power model on. We’ll get. We’ll get to that and lots of others. But, you know, let’s start at the basics. What, uh what is this New power? Why do we need this book? Well, I think actually giving Tuesday is quite a good example of new power works. So what new power is is this power Thio, Mobilize power in a world where we’re all connected? How do you think about mobilizing a crowd around the things you want to happen in the world? and so e-giving Tuesdays what we would call a new power campaign. So giving Tuesday was designed to be owned by a lot of people that was designed to be connected. It was designed to be kind of ownerless. It was designed to be made by many, which is very different design than how you might think of the old power design of something like giving Tuesday. So let’s just imagine, as a thought experiment you were gonna have a national day of giving an old power world. You would call it something like the 92nd Street wise giving Tuesday right co-branded very heavily. You’d make sure that anyone who was involved put your logo as high as they could on their pay. You should make them sign a long legal agreement, saying the way they were going to give was his one specific way on this one specific day. And if we had done that with those kind of old power mindset, e-giving Tuesday would have scales nowhere. Instead, what we did with giving Tuesday with we took our brand off it we designed giving Tuesday so it would become more interesting as other people grabbed it so e-giving Tuesday has become giving Blue Day and at the University of Michigan Rescue Mission, Everyone and e-giving Shoes Day dressed for success and IT list goes on on giving week in Singapore. It’s now in 100 countries on it, and the reason that has happened is could be designed in a new power way that we designed it so other people could could make it and take it somewhere new on. And so, in a way, if you think about what new power is, new powers kind of lives in the spirit of giving Tuesday, which it’s It’s this way of thinking about the world where what you’re trying to do is not create a program that is all about you, that you download onto the world in this stage, or trying to create a movement that is around the set of shared values that mobilizes other people around. Your mission has a really important idea. Other people around your mission. If you think about to take a big step back, think about the world right now. Who’s winning right now? Anyone who is winning right now really understands this new power, so I’ll give you a couple of examples. Here’s an inspiring one that never again kids. The park from high school kids. Now that was a distributed movement. It was technology focused. It was made by many. It surged very quickly through the country and powerful ways. You look at the metoo movement again. Metoo got stronger and stronger as more people added their voices. More people connected together. It wasn’t about one person. It was founded, of course, by the activist Tirana book. But the new incarnation of metoo is about is about millions of women everywhere now telling their stories in a communal way so we could be very inspired by new power movements like Never Again will like me too. But you can also look att, the success of Donald Trump. There’s a darker side. Well, I mean, I know that you think of Isis That’s your political commentary rather than mine. But so, yeah, I think there is a darker side, which is so if you look at if you look at the way in which Donald Trump, whatever your view on the president, maybe he has worked out how to take this crowd and to surge this crowd into office with him and to support his agenda. Buy-in this huge mobilization based around him. You think back over the election, his capacity to conjure up to mobilize that crowd was with what really got him to stand out. If you remember back when the throughout the election, the favorable unfavorable ratings, a favorite bilich Hillary’s favorable was always hyre than Trump’s. Neither were very high, but he was always hyre than Trump’s. But what Trump got right with intensity. He built this intensity a scale around his movement. He retweeted the most extreme supporters. He promised toe pay, the fees of people who punched protesters. He created this kind of intensity and a movement around him, which surged him into office. And so what new power is and whether it’s a trump who’s working out how to do this, whether it’s the never again kids, whether it’s a platform like Facebook or uber. What is constant in all of these models is people have worked out how to mobilize people around their mission in a powerful way, and that’s what the book is about. The book says that no matter whether you’re running a small non-profit or you’re running for political office if you don’t know how to understand the power of the crowd had howto start movements how to spread ideas, how to raise money. If you haven’t got this new suite of skills, you’re gonna get left behind the dark example that I was thinking of eyes was Isis, right? You, you, you you come back to them several times in the book Also harnessing the new the new power Well, for good reason There’s a story off, eh? Scottish schoolgirl called oxen Mark Mood in Glasgow and she way learn about her research in the book. She comes from a nice family. She loves Harry Potter. She’s described as somebody who can’t find her way into the center of Glasgow on the bus on Dhe. But in the evenings she’s being radicalized online and no one knows about this. And one day she disappears. Onda phone. Three days later, the phone rings and she’s calling from the borders of Syria and she’s left home and she’s made. She’s she’s made me hard. And what’s interesting is her story that doesn’t end. What then happens with Dr Markham, you know, she actually becomes one of Isis is most effective recruiters, and she builds this girl to girl network. That’s that’s how it’s referred to using all of these new power tools she uses all the social media tools she has is amazingly emotional. On a motive tumbler account, she uses telegram. She works out how to kind of get this crowd of girls like her around the world. Mobilized around. Isis is mission on dhe. Girls start following her to Iraq and Syria. Girls start making the same journey that she has made because she’s worked out how to get the power of the crowd heading in the direction that she wants to. On This, of course, is someone This is essentially a medieval theocracy who has worked out how to give agency to their followers so their followers can take that movement and make it their own. If you want to contrast the new power of Axum mark mood, I think about how the State Department tried to deal with this. So at the same time, she’s spreading her ideas in this very new power way around the world. The State Department. The first thing they do is they dropped cartoons out of the back of a bomber to land on the heads off civilian population literally top down. It’s really top down on they had. The that tactic was first used in the first World War 100 year old tactic they’re using. They then eventually got a Twitter account, which was called Think Again, Turn away exclamation mark on basically scolded people for wanting to join Isis, commanding right with with a big logo of the State Department. And, as it turned out, to tactics not likely to dissuade potential, Hardee’s is scolding them on big State Department lugers. So those kind of stakes of our time, right? Are you approaching the world with a new power mindset where you understand how to connect these krauz and tow spread agency throughout movement and to connect people and offer people belong in an agency? Or you still in a mode where you think you’re just dropping down your leaflets on the world and the job of people there simply to absorb your content? And in the nonprofit sector in particular, we still see a lot of organizations who is still in the kind of old power Mark Mo’s on. They aren’t working out this set of new power skills. It’s time for a break. Weather CP is they have a new wagon are on September 10th. Leaders Guide to Understanding, not for profit financials, CEOs, boardmember directors. You don’t need accounting detail, but a basic understanding of financial statements will improve your decision. Making. You got a witness? Cps dot com Quick resource is and upcoming events. Oh, but did you miss it? And you need the archive. Go to Wagner cps dot com. Quick Resource is and recorded events. See how they see the symmetry. One is upcoming events, the other was recorded events. It’s all very, very diametrically advantaged. Now back to new power. The book starts early on. There’s, ah, very good example of another example that’s very timely new old power clashing with new power. Harvey Weinstein and metoo. You tell that it’s it’s the same contrast, but it’s so topical. Well, yeah, it was actually very last bit of the book that we wrote, but because it was so over the moment that the so you think about the way that Harvey Weinstein exercised power. It’s kind of the worst kind of old power, so it really waas you know, he had this power like a currency, right? He had this huge store of power he could decide to spend down or no greenlight movies. He could start stop careers. He could startles, stop rumors. He literally held Hollywood in his hand for decades, and it was very much about him. Real Leader, Leader driven approach, which is often true in the old power world. There was a funny statistic that over the last 30 years, the two people thanked most often from the stage off the Oscars were Harvey Weinstein and God. So that’s one of the ultimate old power. And of course, what metoo does is plays a very large part in toppling him through its capacity to conjure up new power. So metoo was made by many people. That wasn’t about one leader, that it was very much leader full as a movement. It it changed. It Maur fu. It was open. It was participatory. All of these different flavors were really about how you think about power very different. We contrast the power of Harvey Weinstein, which is powers a currency to the power of something like me too, which is power is a current new power is something that you don’t own it. It flows on and it moves. And if you can shape it in the direction you’re trying to get in the world, you can have a huge impact. But it’s a very different way about thinking about how power flows in the world. You Ah, you’ve ruined my life with this with this book. Well, that was That’s the new blub for the paperback durney martignetti. I’ve ruined your life. Well, it is. It is about me because I’ve been going through. We’re going through New York reading this book on I’m tagging things as your soul power. I don’t have the bus drivers subway. I’m thinking the subway conductors. God, you’re so old power. I mean, and I could be on a lift right now, um, and lift the new bird there. An interesting contrast between the different models and values. So I’m I’m I’m hypersensitive Thio old power. And then I had to bring it to myself, and I was thinking podcasting, podcasting. I I’m very, very serious, But some very concerned podcasting is, uh I curate and produce and distribute. And then about 12 or 13,000 people Listen, I mean that’s Is that classic old power? Yes. Yeah. So the question what happened? I mean, I was an early adopter. I wasn’t a pioneer in podcasting, but I was an early adopter. What the hell happened in eight years? I got passed by. So his question, I suppose, which is what were what would you What would you and could you do with those 13,000 people other than asking them to listen? So the old power will typically off people to do one of two things you consume or you comply? Those were the behaviors most organizations look for. So media was a good example, right? You consume the media, podcasting, you consume the podcast. The government base, he said, follow the laws do-it-yourself old. But we didn’t re ask people to do much more than that. And so the interesting question, I think with media in particular, is what is the invitation for people to doom or than simply consume? How can they play a role in these kinds of opportunities and moments on it’s telling that you look at things like voting on American Idol. More people vote for American Idol than ever in presidential fashions, right? people want to consume you look a platform like read it. So read it is entirely curated. It’s participatory engine. All of the things that end up on the front page of Reddit end up there because the crowd wants them on the front page of Reddit. All of these platforms what? What? We were classified. New power platforms are designed to ask people to do more than simply to consume. And so, in an era where now half of people. And I’m sure it’s true of people listening to this podcast right now as the interesting exercise. If you’re interested, if the moment you listen to this, you have a phone in your hand and you are looking at your phone, please tweet about. So whenever he is that he is an excellent abila live excise Right now, anyone who is listening right now who is who has a phone in their handlers are looking at their phone whilst listening for this tweet about it. And if you’re listening to this on download on, you’re also looking at your phone to tweet about it because my suspicion is and this is true of TV. Half of the people watching TV now staring another phone. So the question is, why are they staring at another phone? Is it cause TV’s boring, you know, to some degree. But it’s also because they’re looking for a way to be involved in something new that they’re not content with. Just sitting there watching the TV. They want to do something else. So the organizations and individuals who are winning right now working out what that invitation to participate looks like. And I’ll give you another example, which I think is an interesting one. Looked something like Snapchat, right. Before you give you example, if you’re gonna tweet, use hashtag non-profit radio on hashtag new power. Good, very nastad non-profit radio hashtag new power. I’d be interested to know whether that where the people are listening to this and looking at something else, I think they probably are. So the question then becomes like Snapchat is a great example, which is wider Snapchat work. It works because you’re asking people to do more than consume when it’s Facebook work. You’re not just consuming content, you’re sharing it, you’re liking it, your creating your own content where someone like the ice bucket challenge work. It works because we’re asking you to do more than simply donate. That list goes on here. But whatever you’re trying to get done in the world right now, if the only invitation you have is consume, you are likely gonna have an old power model which may not hold up over time. Yeah, that’s why I’m scared. Well, I don’t think you should be scared. I tweeted I tweeted about two hours ago. We hope I’m very nervous about this. Well, so he don’t listen. I said please don’t listen. Well, isn’t actually in the downfall of the show. Let’s try an experiment. Let’s try a second experiment now. So we have is turning into a therapy session way don’t We don’t need therapy in my country. So if you think about if you think your way, I need to know we have people. No, but I like your question. No, I want to try an experiment. Trying, trying to be new power. You hes my experiment central. Well, so his experiment, your listeners, a largely non-profit people. Okay, so we have a frame in the book for how you think about spreading ideas. Let me tell you about that frame. And then let’s challenge your listeners to think about that frame and work out a way. They could apply it to their own worlds. So the frame is around, how you spread ideas. So what we say in the book is, if you want to spread ideas in the new power world, it’s very different than the old Powell’s. So in the old power world, what we would do, we try and create the perfect sound by or the kind of perfect logo and get everyone to replicated or admire it. In the new power world, the ideas that end up working are ones that are actually designed to spread sideways. They’re designed to pass from person to person to person to person. And there are three key principles. If you want your ideas to spread in a new power world, unless use the ice bucket challenge a Zen example here I think it’s a good one. The first principle. It is actionable. You’re asking people to do something. So the ice bucket challenge they were asking people to pour water over their head to donate, to share, to nominate those bunch of things you’re asking people to do so number one is actionable. Number two is connected. Theo Ice Bucket Challenge work because it tied people together peer-to-peer so that it really began when a group of golfers connected with a group of L S sufferers and that kind of began the ice bucket challenge. But the reason it worked in general is because it was past between peoples peer groups, so people nominated other people to do the ice bucket challenge. It moved what we call move sideways. The second principle of your idea spreading is connected. The third principle is extensible. You create ideas that can turn into something else. So when the ice bucket challenge, when the actor Patrick Stewart did the ice Bucket challenge instead of pouring water over his head, he got a porter’s off large whisky, dropped some ice cubes in, wrote a check and then said cheers to the camera. The idea could turn into something else. It wasn’t a franchise, it was an extensible idea. So those three principal spell ace, a C actionable connected extensible e-giving Tuesday, Another good example, right? It’s actionable. It’s giving Tuesday. You give it’s connected, it ties you to all these other people are always other causes. Its extensible giving Tuesday turns into all sorts of different things that move around of the world. Metoo is another example. So metoo actionable metoo literally. It’s actually more connected. It ties you to all of these other women. It ties you to this shared cause. Extensible. When metoo gets to Frantz, it turns into denounce your pig. So even the framing itself changes. So here’s the challenge. Fuel. 13,000 listeners think about those three principles actionable connected. Extensible. Think about the things you’re trying to get done in the world. And can you imagine an experiment with your work with your ideas with your cause that you could design in an ace way? Um, have a go at that, See how it goes on, then tweet back What you learn to hashtag non-profit radio on. Let’s see what we learn and hash tag New power. No, I’m gonna be very new power about it. I don’t only my brand in there. You feel free? I just wanted you to read it. I I constantly follow new power non-profit radio tweets. Okay, Don’t Okay. Okay. Um I mean, I just wanted to have a way to find them. Okay, I think I think I’d like to hear from anybody. If that’s see, that’s chapter three of the book. I think about that framework. See if it works for you. See what you could design, even in a small way, with those principles, and see where it takes you. Okay, um, turning into a therapy session. But so if I was gonna apply this to tow a podcast, um, it’s got it’s more than just, you know, submit your questions. You know, that’s that’s me choosing the guests, and then you submit questions. You know, it’s gotta be, um but but how did you But then how do you get it to everybody? I mean, it has to be distributed. What isn’t I mean, that’s there. I think they’re a couple of answers to that. What one is? I think the exercise we just did is a step in right direction, which is you’re you’re working out ways, and this is a kind of Keanu power principle. You’re working out ways to invite people to do more than simply listen. So what? I just did what I said. Here’s set of ideas. What do you think can you create some interesting content around those and maybe, maybe not. We’ll see. It’s an experiment, maybe something this is that frame will resonate with them. They’ll take it and put it to their own ideas, and they’ll share something back with you. Now if they do share some things back with you, how would you then think about taking that content in learning from that content, sharing with other listeners, building a community around those ideas. You then starts getting kind of back and forth between US host in the community at large on building that relationship, I think seems to me the interesting future off media in general, which is people are gonna want to have their voices heard We’re so used to face. But why do we love Facebook so much? We love it because it allows us to feel like our voices hurt right. We get to comment on things we get to like. Things is very. It’s very human. It’s very, um, is very provocative for people to feel like they have agency. So So I think people need to design at the interesting. The irony of podcasting actually is what ended up happening is podcasting itself is a very new power tool, so anyone could start a podcast where I could your podcast on my phone as I leave today. So it’s actually democratized the capacity to create media. What’s interesting is most people then approached in a very old power way. So what’s happened is, lots of people have just behave like they’re the BBC. I’m gonna have my all for your voice and my oath. Auriol voice will be broadcast down to the world. What hasn’t happened is a lot of people have grabbed it and actually then used the opportunity to engaged, actually engaged in very new power ways. But I’ll give you an example of an organization. I really like the look off Who does this well, which is the organization called the correspondent altum correspondent in the Netherlands to their media company. There they were, start up. They were crowdfunded into existence, their newspaper, which is supported by their members. So it’s all funded by the readers themselves, and they even now give their readers profile, full profile pictures and expertise domains. So if they’re writing an article about national security, they have 400 readers who have had careers and national security who have identified their national security experts. They then crowdsourced the articles they’re writing with this group insights and comments and opinions before those are schools and then posted. So they thought about the whole process of journalism and how every point you can invite more people to play a meaningful role in how that work is shaped and shared on Bill on. So I think the future of this work looks a bit more like that Where media becomes There is definitely a role for the for the expert, for the for the journalist. But that journalist is building a high quality, participatory set of behaviors around their art. I think that’s the key lesson. Let’s make something explicit the models versus the values. There’s a chart table trying the book with four quadrants, um and castles and coop tres and crowds. And remember the 4th 1 butt And let’s let’s, uh, yeah, I want I want to flush out some of the more details before we go toe models of leadership, ideas of leadership, actionable things that non-profits can be thinking about beyond the ace. I mean, I love the East Challenge, so these models and values. So we make a distinction between the whether you have a new power model on whether you have new power vase and they’re very different things. So a new power model is basically, you have this capacity to deliver mass participation, and Pierre collaborations of Facebook is the best example. Facebook is amazing new power model. The model allows lots of people to collaborate, connects, create, share all those good things. And the, uh, you think about the i. R S. P. I. R s does not have that model or the IRS simply says pale taxes. And here it is, and then they’re not engaging with you in a participatory away in a meaningful way. They just simply telling you to do as you’re told now new power values. There are those organizations who have new power values, who care about things that the wisdom of the crowd and transparency and kind of make a culture all of those good things. What we think of his new power values and an old power values much more around kind of professionalism, a managerial ism and expertise and all of those kinds of things. So there’s a really balance now between whether you have a new power model or it’ll power model on whether you have old power values or new power values, and you start thinking about your own organization. It’s an interesting thing to think about. So we think about these kind of four archetypes in the world that the first of the castles and the castles are organizations who have no power models and old power values to the I. R. S is a perfect example of that. I put the United Way when we wrote the H. P. R P s. I put the United Way in that quadrant two. They have old power values and an old power model. Interestingly, a lot of local chapters of the United Way. We’re actually moving away from that model now toe quite effective degrees. But I think in the philanthropy world, you can think about kind of the old school United way mortal. Where everyone has to do is they’re told, pay for their put their money into their local parts of their boss. Looks good, right? Veil, pal model you then think about the cheerleaders and cheerleaders of those organizations who have old power models still but actually are exhibiting new power values. So think about the clothing firm Patagonia. They sell clothes, right? They’re asking you to consume. That’s what they do. But actually, they’re building a very participatory brand. They’ve got a whole activism platform now around their brand they’re trying to build. They’ve been very transparent about their supply chain, even some aspects of it. Quite troubling. So we see a lot of organizations in this kind of cheerleading space where they haven’t really changed their core mortal. But their values are starting to shift, and then we have what we think is kind of the crowds and the crowds have new power models and a new power values. So think about the extreme thing about black lives matter. Um, extraordinary new power model distributed extraordinary new power values. They’re so intentional about being a leader full, they use that phrase all the time. I lead a full organization about how they make lots of people more powerful on that quadrant is really about new power, meeting new power. And then, most interesting of all, is perhaps the quadrant we think about is the cooperators, and these are people who have worked out new power models but actually have very old power values. So we’ll use Facebook again as an example. So Facebook has this amazing new power model, but their values of very old power it’s very secretive. The governance is really hidden in a small number of people. The algorithms. We have no idea what they’re doing or how they’re working, and they shape our lives. Well, elections the value of Facebook. We contribute our data day after day after day, and other people extract the profits. So they’ve co opted new power. Uber also were also to a lot of people in the coop. And interestingly, there’s been a real one of the interesting. One of the interesting phenomena in recent months has been this kind of rising political consciousness against the platforms that, you know, for years, there was this kind of huge, utopian enthusiasm, for we’re gonna connect the world, and if the world’s all connected, everything will be terrific and people know that’s not true. Now we know that actually connectivity alone, it isn’t gonna deliver some instant utopia. What was actually gonna happen is all of this participation that we’re all doing actually makes a few people, very powerful and leaves a lot of people actually less powerful. So the big philanthropic question of our times Well, certainly one of them not the big question. One of them is gonna be. How do we think about platforms? How do we think about their role in a philanthropic world? How do we think about the the intermediaries? We all now hovers non-profits like a Facebook who often will be the distance between us and our audiences that often be smart. And then there’s some amazing things happen. Facebook has done some terrific stuff recently around waving fees around giving and on connectivity. And it’s actually a lot of science of I think I see some very hopeful science commit Facebook in terms of how they’re thinking about their philanthropic role. But arguably they’ve very quickly become one of the most powerful philanthropic actors in the world. And so how they think about that set of questions is gonna be very interesting. Big implications, right? Yeah, huge. We have about a minute and 1/2 or so before break. A couple of weeks ago, I had Sheila Warren on from the World Economic Forum, talking about Blockchain technology. What’s the potential around Blockchain and this this distributed in centralized values that we’re talking about? Well, it’ll block pain is a great new power model. So it’s It’s a distributed leisure, right? So the nature of it is not too centralized to not be leader driven to not to be talked down but actually to rely upon the wisdom of the crowd to develop trust in transactions. So I think, on paper, hugely promising. Here’s my note of caution. The hype around the block chain reminds me of the hype around the web of the beginning, right. It will be amazing. It will all be descended. Flies will be distributing power. It will bring down all these governments. Everything will be the same again. And actually, of course, what ends up happening. And Tim Berners Lee predicted this early on. Actually, what ends up happening is on this utopia. We build these platforms on top of it, which actually intermediate a lot of the platform. So for all the hope and hype around blocked kayman, I think both are legitimate. I think we should also strike a note of caution that we’ve heard this record before and on paper, of course. You know, I always think Blockchain is kind of incorruptible in the same way the Titanic was unsinkable, right? I think they’re probably, sir. There are probably some dangers ahead, but But Net Net. I think I’m very hopeful. We need to take a break. Cougar Mountain Software quote. Kruckel Mountain software is simple to use, and the support is phenomenal. With a program like QuickBooks, you don’t have support. If you don’t have support, it’s worth nothing. End quote. Says Christine Christenson. She’s the owner of Broomfield St Sheet Metal, not street metal sheet metal. Okay, not a non-profit, but she has a lot of experience with Cougar Mountain, so you can learn from her. They have a free 60 day trial. Cougar Mountain does not Broomfield, and the way to find that is the listener landing page tony dot m a slash cougar Mountain free 60 day trial. Now time for Tony. Take two. My dad and I have very close names for formal stuff. Signing up for things that center. I use Anthony So Anthony martignetti. My dad is Anthony J. Martignetti. We are both members of Consumer Reports, and when I moved, consume reports in their zeal to be proactive and not lose touch with a long standing member. He’s a longer standing member than me, Um, conflated us and through some sort of address search, they thought Anthony J. Which is my dad, was the one who moved to North Carolina. So I started getting Anthony J. Martignetti mail at my North Carolina address. Meanwhile, Anthony J. Martignetti is still living in New Jersey. He hasn’t moved, so they they had a good intention. But they screwed it up. And I’ve told them it’s been four or five times now that I’ve written to them and e mailed them, and they haven’t straightened it out yet. So I’m hoping maybe this will get them to figure it out. Well, I’ve already figured out for them to correct the mistake that they made, and I go into a little more, uh, snarky detail on the video so you can check out the video. It is bad data at Consumer Reports, or I might call it a Consumer reports. You’ve got bad data, but you’ll find it. It won’t be difficult. And that, of course, is that tony martignetti dot com and that is Tony’s Take Two. Now Back to New Power with Henry Timms. Henry Timms is with us, and we’re talking about his new book, New Power. You Need You Just Get the Damn Book because you know we can’t cover in an hour. It’s just that simple. The book is at this is new power dot com. Henry is at Henry Timms T. I. M. M s, um, book publishing. That’s very old power. 80. How come you didn’t self self publisher do something less traditional? I think it’s very, very fair question there. So in a way, the irony of the the work we’ve done on new powers. It began in Harvard Business Review and they published by Penguin. Random House. So I think it fair to say we know the irony in this. Here’s my Here’s my defense, which, which is to say this, that actually our book never says old power, Bad new power. Good. In fact, if you think about the arc of how we spread some of these ideas, the kind of expertise at Harvard Business Review, these ideas would never got. I got into the mainstream in the way that they did without the old power of HBR. They They have a very high bar publication. They have an extraordinarily powerful brand that really is top down, right? They create this magazine, they put it into the world, they decide what should be in it, and that’s a lots of people try and get in it, and some of them get often get frustrated by not be able to do that. And so what launched the idea of the book was there was we had this very strategically. We thought, Okay, we want these ideas out there in the world. We want something like HBR to give them that kind of a credibility and kind of put them in the in the minds of the right influences. But what then have wants? The ideas were out there in the world. The reason we wrote the book was their new power kicked in. So what happened with the book with the HBR piece was it was out there in the world. We had such an amazing response from people around the world who radiates be our peace and then started to make it more interesting. So I’ll give you an example. In the UK, they’re a group of health workers, nurses, midwives, health professionals who read the HBR peace and found it was very relevant to the health world. So there’s almost no world more old power than health, right? So you have these doctors and hospitals 10 year from what they should do and lorts people not feeling much agency. And they create a whole curriculum around new power, building on the ideas, making them or interesting making a more relevant to the health sector, which they then used to actually do. Bunch of training all around the world now training frontline health workers in terms of how they think about their own power where it goes in the world. So it’s all things like that. And then we saw things like there was a spy agency here in the U. S. Who reframe their strategy around new power and how they need to think about even a spy agency is old powers. It gets how they recognize they have to enter the new power world so that the book began because we saw this new power reaction to the old power of the HBR peace and all these all these kind enthusiasm spreading up around the world around the book on, we engage that community to as we wrote the book itself. So we brought that community back into the process is we put the book together and again. I think when we wanted to publish the book, we definitely wanted to do it in a way we wanted Toa publish it through someone who would send a lot of signals to the right people that would have the right amount of old power around the book, but also has the right amount of new power around the book, too. So what’s been very interesting with the The book is now It’s out in the world were back in the same place we were in after the HBR pieces. Our time is now much more fostering the new power community around the book, hearing all those people who are working on it around the world and most importantly of all, seeing people build on the thinking. So the high points of us so far with the book out there in the world is when people have grabbed it and made it more interesting. They’re taking ideas and said, Well, here’s how we could take this into our world. They’ve written about new power. They’ve made videos about new power. There was 11 guy who took some of the charts we had done in the book and made much better versions. So it becomes the work itself, becomes attractive. People grab it and take it somewhere new. And that’s where new power kicks in and in publishing more generally, just for what it’s worth, Look at the growth of fan fiction, just as one example of how much is being published now. And if you think about writing in general, here’s an optimistic note hit for new power. We’ve never had more writers in the world than we do right now. There are more people writing and sharing their words. When I was growing up, if you wanted to be a writer, think about, you know, I just turned 40 when I was growing up. You wanna be a writer, you maybe get something in the local newspaper. That was possible, but it was quite a high bar, right? You could get something photocopied by someone at school and given to everyone you know. But actually those were your means of communication that is as much as you could genuinely be a writer unless you got some kind of freak publishing deal and you were one of a handful. But most people had no root for participation thing. Now, about everyone in their lives and the audience is they have the connections, the opportunities they have. We have this become really interesting story of our time is we’ve never had more available human capital than we do right now. People wanting to create things, build things, learn things, mobilize around things, organized events. So the question then becomes who is gonna organize them, where, where they’re gonna end up going. And if those on the side of the angels don’t get good a new power, then all that human agency is actually gonna end up in the hands of worse actors. I think that’s a really important idea behind the book. This isn’t a kind of hey, you should be authentic to win a business kind of a book. This is a book which saying Look, this is the stakes of our time, those those people are on. I would think of your listeners in this group, those people who are kind of fighting the good fight who are on the side of the Angels. If they’re still approaching the world in a kind of press release, you know my way or the highway approach, they’re not gonna be able to mobilize a generation of people who want to add their own stamp on. So that becomes the great challenge of our age. All right, let’s talk about some of the implications for non-profits. Start with leadership. There’s a whole chapter devoted to, you know, uh, what what the implications are for leaders on. I want to focus on leaders of non-profits. No, the creating the crowds. Um, just thinking I mean, you gave the ace challenge. You know what? What we what we what we asking our leaders to do? Well, that’s a really good question. I’ll give you a a somewhat provocative answer, Which is why I think we we are always in danger. Non-profits leaders non-profits that you let the show become about you. The non-profit actually become so defined by the kind of charismatic chief executive who takes up all the space and takes up all the agents like a book author, like someone who’s recently written a book. I don’t not like I’m non-profit. Yeah. Result has a hashtag like that. No, no, Like those. Okay. No, I I think one of the things we worked really hard on actually is the idea that you actually build. You build power inside institutions. So one thing we do a lot of night, Secretary wise, one of the measures we have each year is around adoption of good ideas, which is around. Do people in amongst our team feel their ideas are adoptable? Do they have a chance? If they have a good idea, is gonna be adopted. Or is it? No. We’ve seen significant double digit growth year after year. It in that. And that’s a big measure. I think about our leadership, which is I remember what it was like being an organization when I had ideas. Norman, listen, right. I remember thinking I had lots of good ideas and they weren’t getting on the agenda. And the chief executive wasn’t paying attention. And certainly I think about my own leadership. The measure I have internally is how do we make sure that we can as much as possible mean anyone? Any level feels like their ideas could be adopted and brought through on. A lot of that is about using the chief executive role. Where you have got more people, you’re more available, you’re more in the limelight. How much you can use that to actually encourage the agency and support of others has been a really important idea. I think for that, and I think the for what it’s worth the I’ve been very intentional around. The book has been a book has been a bit of a period for me. Off Maur. I’ve been Maurine the limelight with the book because my book, but we wanna get the ideas out there in the world. But actually previously to that, as I thought about my leadership with CEO, there’s actually been a bit of a disconnect between running the running the 92nd Street. Why we’re actually me being more well known is not useful. Actually, I think, too, the book where it has been a bit more useful. This has been an intentional period, but it had I not written the book, I think I wouldn’t have entered the public light in quite the way that I did, and I also suspect this is just a short term thing. The book that didn’t do the dynamics of the book are actually very different than running the institution. And I think over on the institution why I think we know this because we measure this on annual basis in quite a granular way. You know, I think we do have a real sense that we’re trying to make a lot more people feel like they can have ideas. And that’s also true of the movements we’ve built. So something like giving Tuesday like nobody knows 92nd Street. Why South giving Tuesday? I mean in the nonprofit world like a bunch of pompel? No, because it is that’s inside baseball. But you ask. Anyone who knows about giving Tuesday haven’t got a clue what our role is. What my role. Waas. We made that decision very intentionally, like e-giving shoes. He wasn’t a way that someone could get to know bonem. That wasn’t our goal. And that’s often how these things start up right. They have so one dynamic individual who build something and they get close to famous people. We just haven’t done that. E-giving Tuesday has been designed in a way that actually isn’t about us on the leadership of giving Tuesday. Certainly true of May. I could never do a day’s more work on giving Tuesday in my life, and it would keep going. And that’s a design principle, right? So this is very much about building movements and ideas that are bigger than ourselves. Did you have new power in mind as you were when you cofounded e-giving Tuesday? Yeah, that seven years, seven years ago. So the two things have fed each other. Actually, what’s been really interesting is the world we done the nice industry. Why building movements lighten like giving Tuesday like our Ben Franklin circles, like our women Empower Initiative, all of which have the same design principles they all have kind of fed the thinking. The world has spread the thinking and the thinking has fed the work. So there’s been a real back and forth in that dynamic over the last seven years, and it’s been terrific, like that’s the You know, I’m not a thought leader. That’s not like I you know, we’ve got $65 million budget. We’ve got 1800 employees, right? You know, I run a complicated institution. I love doing that But what was becoming clear is I was doing that work was there was a new way of thinking about the world, all of the thinking that ended up in the book from my side. All this already with Jeremy heimans, my collaborator. But from my side, that thinking was very much influenced by the things we had done it in the 90 second Street. Why, especially we have this Belfer Center for Innovation, which what was founded by a boardmember and is run by Ashley Karen, who has collaborated with me on a lot of these kinds of ideas, and that work has really been formative in terms of shaping some of thinking around the book. You’re gonna be on the show, I think, twice leading up to giving, too. Is that right? We’re trying to get more non-profits to participate in giving Tuesday, so I know she’s coming at least twice the two or three times you know, maybe assigning homework between the session to see how my had what was out first. Yes, Your Grace, that well, that’s yes, that’s the summer project. Um, so in terms of leadership, I mean, so is it Maur channeling and guidance. A CZ, you think rather than leading. I think there’s definitely a sense of so I think a lot about this sonny and my role there. There’s old power, leadership skills and new power leadership skills, right? So think about, you know, we have a bunch of people who are on the payroll on essentially most of that. You can lead a small power skills. You’re you know there are. You’re in charge. You can largely ask people what to do, and they’re going to do the things you ask them to do. And that’s how institutions work right there often have very powerful people. Top running movement is very different than that, because you haven’t got the same kind of power that you haven’t got power over a movement in the same way you do over an institution So e-giving Tuesday. We don’t none of those people on our payroll. They’re participating giving Tuesday because they think it’s a good idea or they’re benefiting from it or they won’t do something useful, and it’s actually a very different set of leadership skills. They’re becoming closer together now, But for a long time I remember thinking a lot about how different it is to run an institution and to lead a movement. How different those sets of skills are. Actually, one of the things that I read it ran up against that. Yeah, right. Well, lots of people do. It’s really this is no easy like, I think it was going to say what this is like. It’s no easy and it’s not binary. So this work doing this work, we’ve done lots of stuff. It hasn’t worked super well and like that’s inevitable. And now you have to keep trying things. That’s how it works. It’s never a case of all new power or a LL old power, but actually how you combine that blended chapter on blended power? There is Chapter nine on their power. So I think that’s right. And I think that is the right prescription for organizations, which I’m not saying to any of the non-profits out there. And it’s not true of us. Give up on your old power. You know, there are moments where export curation makes a huge difference. We have this amazing poetry, Siri’s of the Night, second Street Y and the people who run that just is incredible. First class minds who really know the work and know the field on DNA, the cannon. And they know what program and its delights. Audiences were never gonna stop doing that. But alongside that, we’re also gonna create projects like we did this core project called the words we live in, where we invite people all around the world for one week to share the words that they encountered on their daily journeys to the words you run into day after day after day, what they are and how they matter now that’s an old power and a new power way of thinking about poetry. Expert Curator is giving you the very best That was one colleague. Another colleague created this amazing program, this amazing movement, where encourage people everywhere to share their stories around what words meant to them. Artistically, they’re both valid. They’re just very different muscles. They’re very different skillsets on. I think the right prescription for organizations is Are you an organization who could do both of those things? Well, I think we’re the night sickness rewire trying to become the organization time for our last break turn to communications, PR and content for your non-profit. They help you tell your compelling stories, get media attention on those stories and build support for your work. They’re into media relations, content, marketing, communications and marketing strategy and branding strategy. You’ll find them at turn hyphen to DOT CEO. We’ve got butt loads more time for new power. We gotta do the live love, et cetera. Live. Listen, a lot of it’s going out. It’s going out. Ah, New York, New York. We got multiple New York, New York. We got Parsippany, New Jersey. Bethesda, Maryland. Listening. Tampa, Florida Live list their love to each of you. Let’s go abroad. Shanghai, China. Anyhow, I’m glad Shanghai’s back. Haven’t been here for a while. We have the UK Um, we have Korea. Annual haserot comes a ham. Nida. We have Thailand. Morocco. We have Ah, Bella to Dante, Brazil Live. Listen to love to Brazil that that’s the first time, I believe. And the podcast pleasantries. Thea, over 12,000. Pushing 13,000 listening on. You’re on your own device at your own time. Very new power, way of listening. You do it on your own. We’re working on the old power side. I’m, uh that was not lost on me. But you can consume it anytime you want. On whatever device you like. After I put it out. So podcast pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections. Those analog radios AM FM stations air out there. Those radios are going nowhere. Analog is not going to die. Don’t fear the new power world. I know that there will always be AM and FM listeners. You know it’s not new power. All power is not technology based. It’s not. It’s it’s different. It’s models and values. It’s not. It’s not based on a technology. There’s analog listeners, am and FM throughout the country, affections to our affiliate station listeners. Thank you for indulging that Henry Timms. No, I was fascinated. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay, because love has got to go out, you know, like, whatever format, the gratitude. But the attitude is always going. New powers come out in Brazil in August, so the Brazilian version has come out all this. So I’m very pleased to hear Brazil being well recognized. There. There? Yes. Look for it. Look for it in August. Okay. Um that was Belle Ita. Bilich. Terra Santa, I believe. Are you gonna be doing some appearances in Brazil. Yeah, we’re gonna do. We’re actually gonna do the book. The book is being published, and we’re gonna do the e-giving. Tuesday’s done very well in Brazil, so we’re doing their e-giving shoes. They launch at the same time. Get the book. This is new power dot com. Just get the book. Um Well, what way would you like to go for your listeners in small and midsize non-profits? A lot of CEO executive directors. A lot of fundraisers. Um what? Well, I tell you some things on my mind and maybe these Maybe this is helpful. Maybe this is not things I’m thinking. It’s helpful, but I don’t like to protect me. I don’t like to present my the I’ve been thinking a lot about intensity. I think a lot about the the importance of driving intense, intense to his organization. So one of things were very good at in the nonprofit world is, you know, powerful causes something that’s something we’re not as good at. All the time is is driving intensity in the people who are surrounding us. So people think very well of us. But actually they are prepared to go to the mat for us on one thing. I think if you think about the organizations and leaders who doing really well right now, they’re actually doing really well with intensity. They’re working out how to build that around their brands. So as a kind of if I were in a room of lots of CEOs and I was, you know, we were going around the room were asked to kind of think about what’s on our mind. One thing on my mind is how we both in our local and global community’s Biltmore intensity thing. That’s an important idea on something which I’m thinking about a lot. I think I’m thinking a lot about virtual reality augmented reality. You know what that’s gonna mean for non-profits? The opportunities we have in there, we just did a capital campaign. We’ve just gone public with our capital campaign. I mean, we did it. We did all of that in virtual reality. So rather than giving people like a brochure which said, you know, he is, this is this is that we gave them a V R headset where they could actually see the night secondary. Why transform in front of their eyes from what it is to what it could be. And we’re very new power idea e-giving people Morvern experience. You’re asking them to kind of engaged already participate, Maurin that and that was really very, very successful with it. It was amazing as a fundraising tool because people really felt like they were apart, something they could really kind of transform the vision. I think I think I think I think a lot about a r N v r and what that is gonna mean for our world. And then I think Thirdly, I’m thinking a lot about things that are the threatened thank you a lot about the the things that we might take him for granted for a long time that now feel under threat and how we can defend those. So you think about some of the work of the night Secretary, why we’ve been believing in things like, you know, importance of public understanding of science and civic activation and thoughtful dialogue about big questions. The wise been doing this for a century. But actually all of those things now feel less like a luxury goods and more like necessities. They feel less like they’re all these nice things to have a more like Well, there are. There is a genuine threat around the world to a set of enlightenment values that we’ve all foster fostered for a very long time. So I think the third thing I’m thinking about a lot right now is kind of what is the role of the nonprofit sector in reaffirming both kind of communitarian and enlightenment values buy-in thoughtful and collective ways. That’s that’s on my mind. That’s also year end. Let’s not Let’s not pretend I want again. The one thing One thing I would say to my colleagues in the field has been all of my time thinking about macro thoughts like a R V r. I do also realize the clock is ticking two year on June 30th. So we’re gonna be doing some work on that, too. The naysayers, if we’re gonna start to institute values and think about new values, is going to be pushed back. The book chronicles the, uh, the designer at 90 secretary. Why? Who was appalled that your logo wasn’t part of the giving Tuesday? Resource is, what do we How do we bring these naysayers? I mean that that’s what was one way of dealing with that. That’s an employee supposed to. Naysayers are on the board and you’re you’re tryingto get them to think in some broader new value kinds of ways. So I I I think we should be grateful for our naysayers, but I don’t think the job is to persuade them or to say yes. I think part of the job of I think there’s a certain type of nay say who just doesn’t like change and they’re just going to say no to anything new, but they don’t like it and like you should do you think those people are worth discounting in general and I just I haven’t got much time for that, but I think it’s a very small percentage of the market then the large percent is the market. People who were genuinely not sure this is a good idea or this is gonna work and them expressing their view in the face of particular with new ideas. People very enthusiastic about new ideas is really good to hear from people who don’t think that the ideas of right when we started giving Tuesday a lot of people thought well, wasn’t a very good idea, and they were the most valuable voices of all. I mean by far because the people who said Hey, this is so cool Let’s do it together That was super helpful with, like, building enthusiasm. It didn’t make it a better project. What made it better project was Remember, Jerry Hirsch has become a friend who who supported giving Tuesday Right back in the beginning, he runs the Lode Star Foundation. I remember he had me on the phone for an hour and 15 minutes. About all things I had wrong about giving Tuesday on I remember was anonymous, helpful conversations I’ve ever had because he genuinely likes new ideas. He just had a bunch of things he didn’t think we’ve got right on. Do you know he was right, actually, as it turned out, So I don’t think our job is to, I think, the extreme naysayers who were just doing a CZ life choice ignore them. Everyone else is an important data point for how you shape an idea or shaper movement. So I hope that we spend more time listening to them, and we’re certainly aboard level. We’ve had some terrific conversations between people who are who are unconvinced. We should be doing work all around the world who think we should be sticking to our local work. Should be focusing on 92nd elects. What business have we got launching? You know, e-giving campaigns with partners in Tanzania, right? It’s a very reasonable question, but but the nature of that dialogue, if it’s done right, you know it’s Zumba. We should be very proud off, right? There’s something thistles gonna get. Very highfalutin, but like there’s something kind of Talmudic Socratic about this, about people being prepared to have different views and to test those views and push them against each other. And if you do that in a decent and honorable in a trusting way, out of that friction, but I think becomes progress, so I hope that’s how I think about naysayers. I do get irritated with people who are kind of anti new ideas because I’m someone who’s very pro new ideas. So I do think there is a kind of default professional mindset, which is everything is wrong until you prove it’s right. I don’t think that’s actually very helpful, but I don’t think we should be too scathing of people who very reasonably roll their eyes once in a while. I’m very grateful for the people. I’ve had so many bad ideas. I mean, so many. And Andi, I’ve been so lucky to have people around me who said, That’s a terrible idea. I tease earlier, read it the story of how they how they, uh, mistreated because we were talking about volunteers. They they had moderators, pure volunteers. Um, we have a few minutes left. What would you tell that? Tell that Reddit story so ready He’s ready fastening its platform because a lot of the channels, all of the challenges, are run by moderators. So these volunteers who actually essentially, are the overseers of the various Reddit channels and so they can work out what’s being said. They can flag things, they could change thing. They can set some of the rules and they consent. She shot the challenge down, so read it had a moment in their community where there was a big kind of ah flashpoint around their CEO, Ellen Pao on her leadership and then her eventual firing, and the whole thing was, was trip was handled pretty badly and then a number of their moderators, the most beloved kind of community managers disappeared. And what happened? Waas The community off moderators turned against the platform, so they actually started shutting. Read it down so that people who were in charge of all these challenge started shutting all the channels down to send the message to ready about the power they have over the platform. And that’s that’s an interesting dynamic. And you’ve seen that play out since that happened with Reddit, you’ve seen campaigns like the Delete uber campaign come along when people are really making meaningful. Essentially, these are platform protests. That’s how to think about them. And so those things are beginning to happen more and more often as people realize that our collective power over some of these platforms is not insignificant. Interesting to the recent Facebook shareholder meeting, there was a big pushback from ordinary average shareholders against the platform itself. So I think one thing you’ll see a lot more off in the months and years ahead as you’ll see much Maur articulate platform protests off groups, off users banding together say Look, I actually expect a B and C from my interaction with with platform. You know, whatever plaque for happens to be read. It learned that lesson. And actually, you know, I think they did learn some lessons from that moment on dhe, their model. It is particularly vulnerable to that because they’ve handed up. So they’ve handed over so much power to their moderators. But also, that’s why they supercharge their platform. What? What Reddit has done so well is they’ve got, um They were all these people around the world who were deeply invested in their work and very responsible for their work. People who oversee the channels that read it, they feel as much connection to their audience is you do to your podcast. I am connected to this podcast. Thank you, Henry Timms. We gotta leave it there. Get the book. For Pete’s sake, just get the book about new power. You’ll find it at this is new power dot com. Follow Henry Timms. He’s at Henry Timms. Thank you so much next week. Peer-to-peer fund-raising and poverty Porn. If you missed any part of today’s show, I beseech you, find it on tony. Martignetti dot com were sponsored by Wagner. CPS guiding you beyond the numbers Wagner cps dot com By koegler Mountain Software Denali Fund Is there complete accounting solution made for non-profits? They’re at tony dot m a slash Cougar Mountain for that free 60 day trial and by turned to communications, PR and content for non-profits, your story is their mission. Turn hyphen to dot CEO. Our creative producers Claire Meyerhoff Sam Liebowitz is the line producer shows Social Media is by Susan Chavez. Mark Silverman is our Web guy, and this music is by Scott Stein be with me next week for non-profit radio. Big non-profit Ideas for the other 95% Go out and be great. You’re listening to the talking Alternate network. You’re listening to the Talking Alternative Network. Are you stuck in a rut? Negative thoughts, feelings. Conversations got you down. Hi, I’m nor in Sumpter potentially ater. Tune in every Tuesday at 9 to 10 p.m. Eastern Time and listen for new ideas on my show yawned potential Live Life Your way on talk radio dot N Y C. I’m the aptly named host of Tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other 95% fund-raising board relations, social media, my guests and I cover everything that small and midsize shops struggle with. If you have big dreams and a small budget, you have a home at Tony martignetti non-profit Radio. Friday’s 1 to 2 Eastern at talking alternative dot com. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business. Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested? Simply email at info at talking alternative dot com Are you a conscious co creator? 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