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Hello and welcome to tourney martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent i’m your aptly named host. Oh, i’m glad you’re with me. I grow oppcoll easy on if i saw that you missed today’s show new power why do some leap ahead while others fall behind in our chaotic, connected age? Co author henry tim’s, president and ceo of ninety second street y, has the answers from his new book, new power i’m tony, take two sexism in your fund-raising responsive by pursuant full service fund-raising data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio by wagner see piela is guiding you beyond the numbers with your cps dot com and by tell us turning credit card processing into your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna may slash tony tell us i’m very glad to welcome back henry tim’s to the studio. He is co author with jeremy heimans of the new book new power, how power works in our hyper connected world and how to make it work for you he’s president and ceo of ninety second street. Why he’s, co founder of giving tuesday henry is a visiting fellow at stanford university’s. Center on philanthropy and civil society he’s at henry timms. And the book is that this is new power dot com welcome back to studio. Henry temps is very nice to be back. I’m very glad to have you it’s been a couple of years. We were last time talking about i don’t know. Maybe it was the third year of giving tuesday or something like that back in the infant days of giving choosed indeed, which is ah, a new power organization. Newpower model on, we’ll get we’ll get to that and lots of others. Um, but, you know, let’s, start at the basics. What? What is this new power? Why do we need this book? Well, i think actually giving tuesday is quite a good example of new power work. So what new power is is this power? Teo? Mobilize power in a world where we’re all connected? How do you think about mobilizing a crowd around the things you want to happen in the world? And so e-giving tuesday’s what we would call a new power campaign. So giving tuesday was designed to be owned by a lot of people that was designed to be connected it was designed to be kind of ownerless. It was designed to be made by many, which is a very different design than how you might think of the old power design of something like giving tuesday. So let’s, just imagine, as a thought experiment, you’re going to have a national day of giving in old power world. You would call it something like the ninety second street wise, giving tuesday right co-branded very heavily, you’d make sure that anyone who was involved but your logo as high as they could on their page and make him sign a long legal agreement saying the way they were going to give was this one specific way on this one specific day, and if we had done that with those kind of old power mindset, e-giving tuesday would have scales nowhere instead, what we did with giving tuesday with we took our brand off it we designed giving tuesday so it would become more interesting as other people grabbed it so e-giving tuesday has become giving blue day and at the university of michigan rescue mission everyone and e-giving shoes day dressed for success and it list goes on, so on giving weak in singapore and is now in a hundred countries on dh. The reason that has happened is because we designed it in a new power way that we designed it so other people could could make it and take it somewhere new. Andi so, in a way, if you think about what new power is, new powers kind of lives in the spirit of giving tuesday which it’s, it’s this way of thinking about the world where what you’re trying to do is not create a program that is all about you that you download onto the world in this stage, or trying to create a movement that is around the set of shared values that mobilizes other people around your mission. He has a really important idea other people around your mission if you think about take a big step back, think about the world right now, who’s winning right? Anyone who is winning right now really understands this new power, so i’ll give you a couple of examples. Here’s an inspiring one that never again. Kids, the park from high school kids now that was a distributed movement. It was technology focused. It was made by many it’s. Surged very quickly through the country and powerful ways you look at the metoo movement again metoo got stronger and stronger as more people added their voices, more people connected together. It wasn’t about one person. It was founded, of course, by the activist tirana book. But the new incarnation of metoo is about is about millions of women everywhere now telling their stories in a communal way. So we could be very inspired by new power movements like never again will like me too. But you can also look att the success of donald trump there’s a there’s a darker side. Well, i mean, i think that that you think of isis, that thing that’s your political commentary of the mind, but so yeah, i think there is a darker side, which is so if you look at if you look at the way in which donald trump, whatever your view on the president, maybe hey has worked out how to take this crowd and to surge this crowd into office with him and to support his agenda by having this huge mobilisation based around him, you think back over the election, his capacity to conjure up to mobilize that crowd was was what really got him to stand out if you remember, back when the throughout the election the favorable unfavorable ratings, the favorability hillary’s favorable was always hyre than trump’s, neither were very high, but he was always hyre than trump’s, but what trump got right with intensity, he built this intensity of scale around his movement, he he retweeted the most extreme supporters he promised toe pay the fees of people who punched protests, he create this kind of intensity in a movement around him which surged him into office. And so what new power is and whether it’s, trump who’s working out how to do this? Whether it’s the never again, kids, whether it’s a platform like facebook or cuba, what is constant in all of these models is people have worked out how to mobilize people around their mission in a powerful way and that’s what the book is about, the book says look, no matter whether you’re running a small non-profit or your running for political office, if you don’t know how to understand the power of the crowd, how howto start movements, how to spread ideas, how to raise money if you haven’t got this new suite of skills you’re going to get left behind the dark example that i was thinking of eyes was isis right? You you, you you you come back to them several times in the book also harnessing the new the new power wealth for good reason. There’s a story off eh? Scottish schoolgirl called axum mark mood in glasgow and she way learn about her researching the book. She it comes from a nice family she loves harry potter she’s described as somebody who can’t find her way into the centre of glasgow on the bus on dh but in the evenings she’s being radicalized online and no one knows about this, and one day she disappears on dh the phone. Three days later, the phone rings and she’s calling from the board of syria and she’s left home and she’s a maid she’s she’s made me hard and what’s interesting is her story that doesn’t end what then happens with with oxen markham unit? She actually becomes one of isis is most effective recruiters, and she builds this girl to girl network that’s that’s how it’s referred to using all of these new power tools. She uses all these social media to all she has is amazingly emotional on the emotive tumbler account. She uses telegram she works out how to kind of get this crowd of girls like her around the world. Mobilized around isis is mission on dh girls start following her to iraq and syria girls start making the same journey that she has made because she’s worked out how to get the power of the crowd heading in the direction that she wants to on. This, of course, is someone this is essentially a medieval theocracy who has worked out how to give agency to their followers so their followers khun, take that movement and make it their own. And if you want to contrast the new power of axum mark mood, think about how the state department tried to deal with this. So at the same time, she’s spreading her ideas in this very new power way around the world, the state department the first thing they do is they drop cartoons out of the back of a bomber latto land on their heads off civilian population, literally top down, actually talk down on dh. They had the that tactic. Was first used in the first world war was one hundred year old tactic they’re using. They then eventually got a twitter account, which was called think again, turn away exclamation mark on basically scolded people for wanting to join isis man right with it with a big logo of the state department and as it turned out, to tactics not likely to dissuade potential, jihadi is is scolding them on dh big state department. Lucas. So those kind of stakes of our time, right? Are you approaching the world with a new power mindset where you understand how to connect these krauz and toe spread agency throughout the movement and to connect people and to offer people belong in the agency? Or are you still in a mode where you think you’re just dropping down your leaflets on the world and the job of people there simply to absorb your content? And in the nonprofit sector in particular, we still see a lot of organizations who are still in the kind of old power mark mode, and they aren’t working out this set of new power skills? You take our first of ah, couple breaks pursuant, they have a new paper. A digital donation revolution. How do you keep up in our one click to buy amazon world? Can you move? Mohr? Can you use more revenue? Can you move people through purchase and donation quicker? The paper has five online fund-raising tactics proven to work and save you money you’ll find on the listener landing page. And that, of course, is tony dot m a slash pursuant radio. Let us now return to new power. The the book starts early on. There’s ah, very good example of another example. That’s. Very timely nufer old power clashing with new power, harvey weinstein and me too. You tell that it’s it’s the same contrast, but it’s so topical. Well, yeah, i was actually very last bit of the book that we wrote, but because it was so over the moment that the so you think, by the way, the harvey weinstein exercised power it’s, kind of the worst kind of old power. So it really wass, you know, he had this power like a currency, right? He had this huge store of power he could decide to spend down or no greenlight movies. He could start stop careers. He could start stop rumors he literally held hollywood in his hand for decades, and it was very much about him, ray lead it leader driven approach, which is often true in the old power world. There was a funny statistic that over the last thirty years, the two people thanked most often from the stage off the oscars were harvey weinstein and god so that’s one of the ultimate old power. And of course, what metoo does is plays a very large part in toppling him through its capacity to conjure up new power so metoo was made by many people. It wasn’t about one leader that it was very much leader, full as a movement. It changed it, mohr it was open, it was participatory. All of these different flavors were really about how you think about power ery different, and we contrast the power of harvey weinstein, which has powers a currency to the power of something like metoo, which is powers of currents. A new power is something that you don’t own it, it flows and and it moves, and if you going to shape it in the direction you’re trying to get in the world, you could have a huge impact, but it’s a very different way about thinking about how power flows in the world. You, uh you’ve ruined my life with this with this book. Well, that was that’s, the new blub for the paperback durney martignetti i’ve ruined your life. Well, it is. It is about me. Is it because i’ve been going through? We’re going through new york reading this book on i’m tagging things as your soul power. I don’t have the bus drivers subway. I’m thinking the subway conductors had your soul power. I mean, i could be on a lift right now and lift the new bird. They are an interesting contrast between the different models and values. So i’m i’m hypersensitive, teo old power. And then i had to bring it to myself. And i was thinking podcasting, podcasting i i’m very, very serious, but some very concerned podcasting is, uh i curate and produce and distribute. And then about twelve or thirteen thousand people. Listen, i mean, that’s. Is that classic old power? Yes. Yeah. So the question, what happened? I mean, i was an early adopter. I wasn’t a pioneer in podcasting, but i was an early adopter, what the hell happened in eight years? I got passed by. So his question, i suppose, which is what? What? What would you what would you and could you do with those thirteen thousand people other than asking them to listen? So the old power will typically off people to do one of two things you consume or you comply? Those were the behaviors most organizations look for. So media was a good example, right? You consume the media, podcasting, you consume the podcast, the government base, he said follow the laws do-it-yourself old but we didn’t re ask people to do much more than that. And so the interesting question i think with media in particular is what is the invitation for people to doom or than simply consume? How can they play a role in these kinds of opportunities and moments? And it’s telling that you look at things like voting on american idol? More people vote for american idol than there were in presidential rations, right? People want to consume you. Look a platform like reddit so red it is entirely curated. It’s, participatory engine all of the things that end up on the front page. Of reddit end up there because the crowd wants them on the front page of reddit, all of these platforms what the what we were classified newpower platforms are designed to ask people to do more than simply to consume. And so in an era where now half of people and i’m sure it’s true of people listening to this podcast right now is the interesting exercise. If you’re interested if the moment you listen to this, you have a phone in your hand and you are looking at your phone, please tweet about so whenever here’s what here’s an exercise with live excise right now, anyone who is listening right now, who is who has a phone in their handlers are looking at their phone whilst listening for this tweet about it. And if you’re listening to this on down, though, go on, you’re also looking at your phone to tweet about it because my suspicion is this is true of tv, half of the people watching tv now staring another phone. So the question is, why are they staring at another phone? Is itcause tv’s boring? You know, to some degree, but it’s also because they’re looking for a way to be involved in something new that they’re not content with, just sitting there watching the tv, they want to do something else. So the organizations and individuals who are winning right now working out what that invitation to participate looks like, and i’ll give you another example, which i think is an interesting one looked something like snapchat, right? Before you give you example ifyou’re gonna tweet us hashtag non-profit radio on hashtag new power good, very hush tag non-profit radio hashtag new power i’d be interested to know whether that where the people are listening to this and looking at something else, i think they probably are. So the question then becomes like snapchat is a great example, which is why this snapchat world it works because you are asking people to do more than consumed. What is facebook work? You’re not just consuming content, you’re sharing it, you’re liking it, you’re creating your own content? Why does someone like the ice bucket challenge work? It works because you’re asking me to do more than simply donate that list goes on here, but whatever you’re trying to get done in the world right now, if the only invitation you have is consumed. You are likely going tohave an old power model which may not hold up over time. Yeah, that’s! Why? I’m scared. Well, i don’t think you’d be scared, i tweeted, tweeted about two hours ago. We hope i’m very nervous about this. Well, so his days don’t listen, i said, please don’t listen well isn’t actually in the downfall of the show let’s, try an experiment let’s, try second experiment now. So we have a it’s turning into a therapy session weighed only therapy in my country so if you think about everything you’re way no. But i like your question. No, i want to try an experiment. Like trying trying to be new power e he’s my experiment centralized. Well so his experiment, your listeners a largely non-profit people, right. Okay, so we have a frame in the book for how you think about spreading ideas. Let me tell you about that frame and then let’s challenge your listen others to think about that frame and work our way. They could apply it to their own worlds. So the frame is around how you spread ideas. So what we say in the book? Is if you want to spread ideas in the new power world very different than the old power lt’s. So in the old power world, what we would do, we try and create the perfect sound by or the kind of perfect logo and get everyone to replicate it or admire it. In the new power world, the ideas that end up working are ones that are actually designed to spread sideways. They’re designed to pass from person to person to person to person and their three key principles. If you want your ideas to spread in a new power world unless use the ice bucket challenge a zen example here, i think it’s a good one. The first principle is actionable you’re asking people to do something so the ice bucket challenge they were asking people to pour water over their head toe donate to share to nominate there’s a bunch of things you were asking people to do so. Number one is actionable number two is connected three ice bucket challenge work because it tied people together peer-to-peer so that it really began when a group of golfers connected with the group of a less sufferers and that kind of began the ice bucket challenge, but the reason it worked in general is because it was past between peoples peer groups, so people nominated other people to do the ice bucket challenge. It moved what we call move sideways. So the second principle of your idea spreading is connected. The third principle is extensible you create ideas that could turn into something else. So when the ice bucket challenge, when the actor patrick stewart did the ice bucket challenge instead of pouring water over his head, he got a point off a large whisky drop some ice cubes in, wrote a check and then said cheers to the camera the idea could turn into something else. It wasn’t a franchise, it was an extensive like so those three principal spell ace a c actionable connected extensible e-giving tuesday, another good example, right, it’s, actionable it’s giving tuesday. You give it’s connected. It ties you to all these other people. Are all these other causes? Its extensive or giving tuesday turns into all sorts of different things that move around of the world. Metoo is another example. So metoo actionable metoo literally it, zach actual connected. It ties you. To all of these other women, it ties you to this shared cause. Extensible when metoo gets to france, it turns into denounce your pig so even the framing itself changes so here’s the challenge fuel thirteen thousand listeners think about those three principles actionable, connected, extensible think about the things you’re trying to get done in the world and can you imagine an experiment with your work with your ideas, with your cause that you could design in an ace way? Have a go at that, see how it goes on, then tweet back what you learn to hashtag non-profit radio on let’s see what we learn and hashtag newpower know i’m gonna be very new power about it. I don’t only my brandon there you feel free ee. I just wanted you to read it. I i constantly follow new power non-profit radio tweets. Okay, okay. Okay. I mean, i don’t want to be. I have a way to find them. Okay? I think i think i’d like to hear from anybody. If that’s see that’s chapter three of the book i think about that framework. See if it works for you. See what you could design even? In a small way, with those principles and see where it takes you. Okay, um, turning into a therapy session. But so if i was going to apply this to tow a podcast, it’s got it’s more than just, you know, submit your questions, you know, that’s that’s me choosing the guests. And then you submitted questions. You know, it’s gotta be. But but how did you? But then how do you get it to everybody? I mean, it has to be distributed well, isn’t i mean that’s their i think they’re a couple of answers to that. What one is, i think the exercise we just did is a step in the right direction, which is you’re you’re working out ways, and this is a kind of keanu power principle. You’re working out ways to invite people to do more than simply listen, right? So what? I just did what i said here’s set of ideas, what do you think? Can you create some interesting content around those, uh, maybe maybe not will see is an experiment. Maybe some of this is that frame will resonate with them, they’ll take it and put it to their own ideas, and they’ll share something back with you. Now, if they do share some back with you, how would you then think about taking that content in learning from that content sharing with other listeners, building a community around those ideas? You? Then you start to get this kind of back and forth between us host in the community at large, on building that relationship, i think, seems to me the interesting future ofthe media in general, which is people are gonna want to have their voices heard we’re so used to face, but why do we love facebook so much? We love it because it allows us to feel like our voices hurt, right? We get to comment on things we get to like things is very for a human it’s very is very provocative for people to feel like they have agency. So so i think people need to design that. The interesting thing irony of podcasting actually is what ended up happening is podcasting itself is a very new power tool, so anyone could start a podcast where i could your broadcast on my phone as i leave today so it’s actually democratized the capacity to create media what’s interesting is most people then approached in a very old power way. So what’s happened is lots of people have just behave like they’re the bbc. I’m going to have my authority voice and my authority voice will be broadcast down to the world. What hasn’t happened is a lot of people have grabbed it and actually then used the opportunity to engaged actually engaged in very new power ways, but i’ll give you an example of an organization i really like the look off who does this well, which is the organization called the correspondent altum correspondent in the netherlands to their media company. There they were, stars up, they were crowdfunded into existence. There are newspaper, which is supported by their members so it’s all funded by the readers themselves, and they even now give their readers profile full profile pictures and expertise domains. So if they’re writing an article about national security, they have four hundred readers who have had careers in national security who have identified their national security experts. They then crowdsourced the articles they’re writing with this group for insights and comments and opinions before those are schools and then posted so they’ve thought about the whole process of journalism and how every point you can invite more people to play a meaningful role in how that works he shaped and shared on bill on. So i think the future of this work looks a bit more like that where media becomes there is definitely a role for the for the expert, for the for the journalist but that journalist is building a high quality, participatory set of behaviors arounds they’re ours, i think that’s the key lesson let’s make something explicit. The models versus the values there’s a chart table trying the book with four quadrants, um, and castles and coop tres and crowds. And remember the fourth one but and let’s let’s? Uh, yeah, i want i want to flush out some of the more details before we goto models of leadership. No ideas of leadership, actionable things that non-profits khun you think about beyond the ace. I mean, i love the east challenge, so these models and values so we make a distinction between the whether you have a new power model on whether you have new power vase and they’re very different things. So a new power model is basically you have this capacity to deliver mass participation, and pierre collaborations of facebook is the best example. Facebook is amazing. New power model. The model allows lots people to collaborate, connects, create, share all those good things and the you think about the i r s i r s does not have that more of the irs simply says, pay your taxes. And here it is and that they’re not engaging with you in a participatory away in a meaningful way, they’re just simply telling you to do as you’re told now, new power values there are those organizations who have new power values, who care about things that the wisdom of the crowd and transparency and kind of make a culture all of those good things, what we think of this new power values and an old power values muchmore around kind of professionalism, of managing a realism and expertise and all of those kinds of things. So there’s a really balance now between whether you have a new power model or it’ll power model on whether you have all power values or new power values and you start thinking about your own organization. It’s an interesting thing to think about. So we think about these kind of four archetypes it’s in the world that the first of the castles and the castles are organizations who have no power models and old power values to the i r s is a perfect example of that. I put the united way when we wrote the h p r p s i put the united way in that quadrant two, they have no power values in an old power model. Interestingly, a lot of local chapters of the united way are actually moving away from that model now toe quite effective degrees. But i think in the philanthropy world, you can think about kind of the old school united way more where everyone has to do is they’re told pay for their, you know, put their money into their local parts of their boss looks good, right? Veil padma, you then think about the cheerleaders and cheerleaders of those organizations who have all power models still, but actually are exhibiting new power values. So think about the clothing from patagonia. They sell clothes, right? They’re asking you to consume that’s what they do, but actually they’re building a very participatory brand. They’ve got whole activism platform now around their brand, they’re trying to build, they’ve been very transparent about their supply chain, even some aspects of it are quite troubling, so we see a lot of organizations in this kind of cheerleading space where they haven’t really changed their core model, but their values are starting to shift and and then we have what we think is kind of the crowds and the crowds have new power models and a new power values. So think about thie extreme thing about black lives matter, extraordinary new power model distributed extraordinary new power values. They’re so intentional about being a leader full, they used that phrase all the time i lead a full organization about how they make lots of people more powerful on that quadrant is really about new power meeting, new power. And then most interesting of all is perhaps the the quadrant we think about is the coop eaters and these people who have worked out new power models but actually have very old power values so we’ll use facebook again is an example. Facebook has this amazing new power model, but their values of very old power it’s very secretive for the governance is really hidden in the small number of people, the algorithms, we have no idea what they’re doing or how they’re working and they shape our lives and shape are elections the value of facebook? We contribute our data they day after day and other people extract the profits, so they’ve co opted new power wolber also were also to be a lot of people in the copter and interestingly, there’s been a real one of the interesting. One of the interesting phenomena in recent months has been this kind of rising political consciousness against the platforms that, you know, for years there was this kind of huge utopian enthusiasm for we’re going to connect the world, and if the world will connect, everything will be terrific and people know that’s not true. Now we know that actually connectivity alone, it isn’t going to deliver some instant utopia. What was actually going to happen is all of this participation that we’re all doing actually makes a few people very powerful and leaves a lot of people actually less powerful. So the big philanthropic question of our times, while certainly one of them not the big question one of them is going to be, how do we think about platforms? How do we think about their role in a philanthropic world? How do we think about they’re the intermediaries? We all now hovers as non-profits like a facebook who often will be the distance between us and our audiences there, austin, be smaller and then there’s some amazing things. Happen? Facebook has done some terrific stuff recently around waving fees around giving and our connectivity and it’s actually a lot of science of i think i see some very hopeful science coming on facebook in terms of how they’re thinking about their philanthropic role, but arguably they’ve very quickly become one of the most powerful philanthropic actors in the world. And so how they think about that set of questions is going to be very interesting. Big implications, right? Yeah, huge! We have about a minute and a half or so before break a couple of weeks ago, i had sheila warren on from the world economic forum talking about blockchain technology, what’s the potential around blockchain and this this distributed unsent realized values that we’re talking about well blocked pain is a great new power model. So it’s it’s a distributed leisure, right? So the nature of it is not too centralized to not be leader, driven to not to be talked down, but actually to rely upon the wisdom of the crowd to develop trust in transactions. So i think, on paper hugely promising here’s my note abortion, the hype around the block chain reminds me of the hype around the web of the beginning, right? It will be amazing, it will all be decentralized will be distributing power. It will bring down all these governments. Everything will be the same again. And actually, of course, what ends up happening. And tim berners lee predicted this early on. Actually, what ends up happening is on this utopia, we build these platforms on top of it, which actually intermediate along the platform. So for all the hope and hype around blockchain, and i think both are legitimate, i think we should also strike a note of caution that we’ve heard this record before and on paper, of course, you know, i always think, you know, blockchain is kind of incorruptible in the same way the titanic was unsinkable, right? I think they’re probably cerini there are probably some dangers ahead, but but net, now i think i’m very hopeful. Take a break, tell us more, neall, i have a new one for you. You know you’ve heard this telephone eel before, but it’s importantly elementary school receiving a monthly donation from tello’s for the credit card processing of a company that one of our parents owns, likely the easiest donation. Source. We have ever secured. End quote. That’s. The monthly pass of revenue that you will get when you refer businesses to tell us for their credit card processing. Is this donation source? Ever go, teo video at tony dahna em a slash tony tello’s now. Time for twenty steak, too. Is there sexism in your fund-raising i was thinking about this because i was looking back an old block post two thousand eleven when i used to write them instead of doing video posts, and i asked the question naively eyes they’re sexism in non-profits and it was the most commented remains the most comment there’s, only thirty comments or thirty four, forty comments or something s o the answer clearly is it was in two thousand eleven and probably remains. Yes, i was thinking about narrowing that two fund-raising and what got what should’ve raised my consciousness was sametz events where, you know, there’s there’s, a husband and a wife couple and someone from the organization is talking to the guy and the woman is marginalized she’s there she’s president, but she’s not being talked to latto not intentional, but you need to be careful on also in some of your direct mail. You know the way you you address male versus female just shouldn’t be. The sentence shouldn’t be mr, and then for women using the first name, be conscious on there’s, a little more consciousness raising at my on my video, which is at tony martignetti dot. Com back-up many times is with us, and we’re talking about his new book, new power you need you just get the damn book because, you know, we can’t cover in an hour. It’s just that simple. The book is at this is new powered dot com. Henry is at henry tim’s t i m m s book publishing that’s very old power, eh? How come you didn’t self help publisher do something less traditional? But i think it’s very, very fair question there. So in a way, the irony of the the work we’ve done on new powers it began in harvard business review and they published by penguin random house. So i think it’s fair to say we we know the irony in this i’m going here’s, my here’s, my defense, which which is to say this that actually our book never says all power bad newpower good. In fact, if you think about the arc of how we spread some of these ideas the kind of expertise at harvard business review these ideas would never got have got into the mainstream in the way that they did without the old power of hbo. They they have a very high bar for publication. They have an extraordinarily powerful brand that really is top down, right? They create this magazine they put into the world, they decide what should be in it. And that’s a lots of people try and get in it, and some of them get often get frustrated by not be able to do that. And so what launched the idea of the book was there was we have very strategically we thought, okay, we want these ideas out there in the world. We want something like hbr to give them that kind of a credibility and kind of put them in the in the minds of the right influences. But what then have once the ideas were out there in the world, the reason we wrote the book was there new power kicked in. So what happened with the book with the hbr piece was it was out there in the world. We have such an amazing response from people around the world who read the hbr piece and then started to make it more interesting. So i’ll give you an example. In the uk, they’re a group of health workers, nurses, midwives, health professionals. Who read the hbr peace and found it was very relevant to the health world. So there’s almost no world more old power than health, right? So you have these doctors and hospitals tell you from what they should do, and lots people not feeling much agency and they create a whole curriculum around new power building on the ideas making them or interesting, making more relevant to the health sector which they then use to actually do bunch of training all around the world now training front line health workers in terms of how they think about their own power, where it goes in the world. So it’s all things like that. And then we saw things like there was a spy agency here in the u s who reframe their strategy around new power and how they need to think about even a spy agency has all powers. It gets how they’ve recognized they have to enter the new power world so that the book began because we saw this new power reaction to the old power of the hbr, peace and all these all these kind enthusiasm spreading up around the world around the book on we engage that community to as we wrote the book itself, so we brought that community back into the processes we put the book together and again, i think when we wanted to publish the book, we definitely wanted to do it in a way we wanted to publish it through someone who would send a lot of signals to the right people that would have the right amount of all power around the book, but also has the right amount of new power around the book too. So what’s been very interesting with the book is now it’s out in the world were back in the same place we were in after the hbr pieces. Our time is now muchmore fostering the new power community around the book, hearing all those people who are working on around the world and most importantly of all, seeing people build on the thinking. So the high points of us so far with the book out there in the world is when people have grabbed it and made it more interesting. They’ve taken ideas and said, well, here’s, how we could take this into our world. They’ve written about new power, they’ve made videos. About new power. There was one one guy who i took some of the charts we had done in the book and made much better versions. So it becomes the work itself, becomes attractive. People grab it and take it somewhere new and that’s where new power kicks in and in publishing more generally just for what it’s worth look att the growth of fan fiction just as one example of how much is being published now. And if you think about writing in general he’s not a mystic, no toe toe hit for new power. We’ve never had more writers in the world. The media right now, there are more people writing and sharing their words. When i was growing up, if you wanted to be a writer, think about, you know, i just turned forty when i was growing up. You want to be a writer. You maybe get something in the local newspaper that that was possible. But it was quite a high bar, right? You could get something photocopied by someone at school and given to everyone you know. Actually, those were your means of communication. That is as much as you could genuinely be a writer unless you got some kind of freak publishing deal and you were one of a handful, but most people had no roof participation think now about everyone in their lives in the audience is they have the connections, the opportunities they have, we have this becomes really interesting story of our time is we’ve never had more available human capital that we do right now, people wanting to create things, build things, learn things, mobilize around things, organize events so the question then becomes, who is going to organize them where where they’re gonna end up going? And if those on the side of the angels don’t get good of new power, then all that human agency is actually going to end up in the hands of worse actors and i think that’s a really important idea behind the book. This isn’t a kind of hey, you should be authentic toe when it business kind of a book. This is a book which saying, look, this is a stakes of our time, those those people are on, i would think of your listeners in this group, those people who are kind of fighting the good fight, who are on the side of the angels, if they’re still approaching the world in a kind of press release, you know, my way or the highway approach, they’re not going to be able to mobilize a generation of people who want to add their own stamp on so that becomes the great challenge of our age. All right, so let’s, talk about some of the implications for non-profits started leadership there’s a whole chapter devoted to you know, uh, what what the implications are for for leaders on i wanna focus on leaders of non-profits no, that creating the crowds, no, just thinking, i mean, you gave the ace challenge. You know what? What we what we what we asking our leaders to do? Well, that’s a really good question i’ll give you a a somewhat provocative answer, which is i i think we we are always in danger non-profits leaders non-profits that you let the show become about you, the non-profit actually become so defined by a kind of charismatic chief executive who takes up all the space and testable the agents like a book author, you know, like like, like someone who recently written a book, not like i’m non-profit ceo resulted in organ has a hashtag like that? No, no like those big okay, no, i i think one of the things we worked really hard on actually is the idea that you actually build you build power inside institutions. So one thing we do a lot of nice secretary wise, one of the measures we have each year is around adoption of good ideas which is around. Do people in amongst our team feel their ideas are adoptable? Do they have a chance? If they have a good idea is going to be adopted? Or is it not? We’ve seen significant double digit growth year after year in that and that’s a big measure, i think about our leadership, which is i remember what it was like being an organization when i had ideas normal listen right, i remember thinking i had lots of good ideas and they weren’t getting on the agenda and the chief executive wasn’t paying attention and certainly i think about my own leadership. The measure i have internally is how do we make sure that we can as much as possible mean anyone, any level, if those let their ideas can be adopted? And brought through on a lot of that is about using the chief executive role where you have got more, you know, people, you’re more available, your mohr in the limelight, how much you can use that to actually encourage the agency and support of others has been a really important idea. I think for that and i think the for what it’s worth the i’ve been very intentional around the book has been a the book has been a bit of a period for me off mohr i’ve been more in the limelight with the book because my book and we want to get the ideas out there in the world. But actually previously to that, as i thought about my leadership with ceo there’s actually been a bit of a disconnect between running the running, the mayor’s secretary why were actually me being more well known is not useful? Actually, i think to the book where it has been a bit more useful. This has been an intentional period, but it had i not written the book i think i wouldn’t have and the public light in quite the way that i did and i also suspect this. Is just a short term thing. The book that doesn’t owe the dynamics of the book are actually very different than running the institution, and i think over on the institution why i think we know this because we measure this on annual basis and quite granular way, you know, i think we do have a real sense that we’re trying to make a lot more people feel like they can have ideas and that’s also true of the movements we’ve built. So someone like giving tuesday like nobody knows ninety second street y south giving tuesday, i mean, in the nonprofit world, like a bunch of pompel now, because it is that’s inside baseball, but you ask anyone who knows about giving tuesday haven’t got a clue what our role is, what my role wass we made that decision very intentionally, like e-giving shoes, he was in a way that someone could get snow bonem that wasn’t our goal and that’s often how these things start up, right? They have self one dynamic individual who build something and they get close to famous people. We just haven’t done that right giving tuesday has been designed in a way that actually isn’t about us on the leadership of giving tuesday. Certainly true of me. I could never do a day’s more work on giving tuesday in my life, and we’ll keep going and that’s the design principle. Right? So this is very much about building movements and ideas that are bigger than ourselves. Did you have new power in mind as you were when you cofounded e-giving tuesday? Yeah, that seven years, seven years ago. So the two things have fed each other. Actually, what’s been really interesting is the world we done the nice industry. Why? Building movements like like giving tuesday, like our ben franklin circles, like our women empower initiative, all of which have the same design principles. Hmm. They all have kind of fed the thinking. The workers spread the thinking and the thinking is fed the work. So there’s been a real back and forth in that dynamic over the last seven years. And it’s been terrific, like that’s the you know, i’m not a thought leader that’s. Not like i you know, we’ve got sixty five million dollars budget. We’ve got eighteen hundred employees, right? You know, i run a complicated institution i love. Doing that. But what was becoming clear is i was doing that work was there was a new way of thinking about the world, all of the thinking that ended up in the book from my side, all this already with jeremy heimans my collaborator. But from my side, that thinking was very much influenced by the things we had done it in the ninety second street. Why especially, we have this belfer center for innovation, which what was founded by a boardmember it is run by asha corrine, who has collaborated with me on a lot of these kinds of ideas. And that work has really been formative in terms of shaping some of thinking around the book. You’re gonna be on the show, i think twice leading up to giving, too is that right? We’re trying to get mohr non-profits to participate in giving today. So i know she’s coming at least twice the two or three times, you know, maybe assigning homework between the session with a listen. See how my hand what works out first? Yes. The race that well. That’s. Yes. That’s the summer project. So in terms of leadership, i mean, so is it? Mohr channeling and guidance a cz you think rather than leading, i think there’s definitely a sense of so i think a lot about this, sonny, my role there there’s no power leadership skills and new power leadership skills. Yeah, right. So you think about, you know, we have a bunch of people who are on the payroll on essentially most of that you can lead a small power skills, you know, there are you’re in charge, you can largely ask people what to do, and they’re going to do the things you ask him to do and that’s how institutions work right there often have very powerful people top running movement is very deep different because you haven’t got the same kind of power, but you haven’t got power over a movement in the same way you do over an institution so e-giving tuesday, we don’t none of those people on our payroll when we don’t there, they’re participating, giving tuesday because they think it’s a good idea or they’re benefiting from it, or they won’t do something useful and it’s actually a very different set of leadership skills. They’re becoming closer together now, but for a long time. I remember thinking a lot about how different it is to run an institution and to lead the movement, how different those sets of skills are actually one of the things that i read, it ran up against that yeah, right, well, lots of people do it’s really, this is not easy, like i think it was going to say what this is like it’s not easy and it’s, not binary. So this work doing this work, we’ve got lots of stuff which hasn’t worked super well and, like that’s inevitable. And now you have to keep trying things that’s how it works and it’s never case of all new power or a wold power. But actually, how you combine has blended things. Is there a chapter on blended power? There is chapter nine on their power, so i think that’s, right? And i think that is the right prescription for organizations which i’m not saying to any of the non-profits out there and it’s not true of us give up on your old power, you know there are moments where export curation makes a huge difference we have is amazing poetry siri’s at the ninety second street y and the people who run that just he’s incredible first class minds who really know the work and know the field on blow the cannon and they know what program and it delights audiences were never going to stop doing that, but alongside that, we’re also going to create projects like we did this cool product called the words we live in, where we invite people all around the world for one week to share the words that they encountered on their daily journeys. So the words you run into day after day after day, what they are and how they matter now that’s an old power and a new power way of thinking about poetry, right? Expo curator is giving you the very best. That was one colleague. Another colleague created this amazing program, this amazing movement where encourage people everywhere to share their stories around what words meant to them artistically, they’re both valid. They’re just very different muscles. They’re very different skillsets on i think the right prescription for organizations is are you an organization who could do both of those things? Well, i think we had a nice sex. Every wire trying to become the organization gonna take our final break. Wittner cps before they go beyond the numbers, they cover the essentials for you that’s nine ninety and audit. Check him out. Regular cps dotcom get to know them in one dimension. Then i like to go three d pick up the phone and talk. Talk to someone who you talk to, partner. You coached him? He’s. Been on the show. You know him? He’s? A good guy. No pressure. Course you can use the contact page at wagner cps dot com if you prefer. I like three dimensional and i’d like to talk. Waiter, cpas dot com we got do the live love, etcetera live listener love it’s going out it’s going out new york, new york. We got multiple new york, new york. We got parsippany, new jersey, bethesda, maryland listening. Tampa, florida live lister love to each of you let’s! Go abroad! Shanghai, china. Anyhow, i’m glad shanghai’s back, having been here for a while we have the u k wei have korea on your haserot comes a ham nida we have thailand, morocco we have ah bilich zonta, brazil live listener loved to brazil but that’s the first time, i believe and the podcast pleasantries thie over twelve thousand pushing thirteen thousand listening on. You’re on your own device at your own time. Very new power way of listening you do it on your own. We’re working on the old power side. I’m that was not lost on me, but you can consume it anytime you want on whatever device you like after i put it out. So podcast pleasantries to the podcast listeners and the affiliate affections those analog radios am fm the station’s air out there those radios going nowhere analog is not going to die. Don’t fear the new power world. I know that there will always be am and fm listeners. You know it’s not new powerful powers, not technology based it’s. Not like it’s it’s, different it’s models and values. It’s not it’s, not based on a technology. Those analog listeners am and fm throughout the country. Affections to our affiliate station listeners. Thank you for indulging that henry terms. No, i was fascinated. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Because the love has got to go out, you know? So i like that. Whatever format the gratitude, gratitude is always going. New powers come out. In brazil in august. So the brazilian version has come out of this. So i’m very pleased to hear brazil being well recognized. Yeah, there, yes, look for it. Look for it in august. Okay, um, that was bilich latto bilich tarzan today, i believe are you gonna be doing some appearances in brazil? Yeah, we’re going to do we’re actually going to do the book. The book is being published, and i were going to do the e-giving tuesday’s done very well in brazil, so we’re doing their e-giving shoes they launch at the same time. Get the book. This is newpower dot com just get the book. Buy-in well, so where would you like to go for your listeners in small and midsize? Non-profits a lot of ceo executive director is a lot of fundraisers. What? Well, i tell you some things on my mind on, but maybe maybe this is helpful. Maybe this is not things i’m thinking, i’ll be helpful trying, but i don’t like to protect me. I don’t want to presume ie thie i’ve been thinking a lot about intensity, i think a lot about the the importance of driving into intensities organization, so one of things were very good at in the nonprofit world is, you know, powerful causes, something that something we’re not as good at all the time is is driving intensity in the people who are surrounding us. So people think very well of us, but actually they are prepared to go to the mat for us. And one thing i think if you think about the organizations and leaders who doing really well right now, they’re actually doing really well with intensity. They’re working out how to build that around their brands. So as a kind of if i were in a room of lots of ceos and i was, you know, we were going around the room. We’re asked to kind of think about what’s on our minds. I think one thing on my mind is how we both in our local and global community biltmore intensity thing, that’s an important idea on something which i’m thinking about a lot. I think i’m thinking a lot about. Virtual reality augmented reality you know what that’s gonna mean for for non-profits the opportunities we have in that we just did a capital campaign, we’ve just gone public with our capital campaign. I mean, we did it. We did all of that in virtual reality. So rather than giving people like a brochure, which said, you know, hey, is this is this is that we gave them a v r headset where they could actually see the nice secretary, why transform in front of their eyes from what it is to what it could be, and we’re very new power idea e-giving people more of an experience, you’re asking, those kind of engaged really participate, maurin that and that was really very, very successful with it. It was amazing as a fundraising tool because people really felt that they were apart, something they could really kind of transform the vision, i think i think i think i think a lot about a are in v r and what that is going to mean for our world, and then i think, thirdly, i’m thinking a lot about things that are the threatened thank you a lot about the the things that we might take him for granted for a long time that now feel under threat and how we can defend those. So you think about some of the work of the night, secretary, why we’ve been believing in things like, you know, importance of public understanding of science and civic activation and thoughtful dialogue about big questions, the wise been doing this for a century, but actually, all of those things now feel less like luxury goods and more like necessities, right? They feel less like they’re all these nice things to have a more like, well, there there is a genuine threat around the world to a set of enlightenment values that we’ve all fostered fostered for a very long time. So i think the third thing i’m thinking about a lot right now is kind of what is the role of the non profit sector in reaffirming both kind of communitarian and enlightenment values in thoughtful and collective ways? That’s that’s on my mind, that’s also year end let’s, not let’s, not pretend i want again, i’m thinking what one thing i would say to my police in the field has been all of my time thinking about macro thoughts like a r v r i do also realize the clock is ticking two year on june thirtieth, so we’re going to do some work on that, too. The naysayers, if we’re going toe, start to institute values and think about a new values there’s going to be pushed back, the book chronicles the the designer at ninety secretary why? Who was appalled that your logo wasn’t part of the giving tuesday resource is what do we how do we bring these naysayers? I mean, that that’s what was one way of dealing with that that’s an employee supposed, the naysayers are on the board and you’re you’re tryingto get them to think in some broader new value kinds of ways. So i i think we should be grateful for on a says that i don’t think the job is to persuade them or to say yes, i think part of the job of, i think there’s a certain type of naysayers who just doesn’t like change, and they’re just going to say no to anything nukes they don’t like you and like you should do you think those people are worth discounting in general? And i just i haven’t got much time for that, but i think it’s a very small percentage of the market, then the large percent is the market people who were genuinely not sure this is a good idea or this is gonna work and them expressing their view in the face of that particular with new ideas, people very enthusiastic about new ideas is really good to hear from people who don’t think that the ideas of right. When we started giving tuesday a lot people thought there wasn’t a very good idea and they were the most valuable voices of all. I mean by far because the people who said, hey, this is so cool let’s do it together. That was super helpful with like, building enthusiasm. It didn’t make it a better project. What made it a better project was remember, jerry hirsch has become a friend who who supported giving beauty right back in the beginning. He runs the lode star foundation, remember, he had me on the phone for an hour and fifteen minutes about all things i had wrong about giving tuesday on i remember was the most helpful conversations i’ve ever had because he genuinely likes new ideas. He just had a bunch so things he didn’t think we’ve got right on dh, you know, he was right, actually, as it turned out, so i don’t think our job is to the extreme naysayers who were just doing a cz life choice ignore them. Everyone else is an important data point for how you shape an idea or shape a movement. So i hope that we spend more time listening to them and we are certainly a board level. We’ve had some terrific conversations between people who are who are on convinced we should be doing work all around the world who think we should be sticking to our local work should be focusing on like second elects. What business have we got? You know, launching, you know e-giving campaigns with partners in tanzania, right? It’s, a very reasonable question, but but the nature of that dialogue, if it’s done right, you know, it’s zumbi, we shall be very proud ofthe right there’s something this’s going to get very highfalutin, but like there’s something kind of talmudic socratic about this, about people being prepared to have different views and test those views and push them against each other. And if you do that in a decent and honorable and a trusting way out of that friction, but i think becomes progress. So i hope that’s how i think about naysayers, i do get irritated with people who are kind of anti new ideas because i’m someone who’s very pro new ideas. So i do. There is a kind of default professional mindset, which is everything is wrong until you prove it’s right? I don’t think that’s actually very helpful, but i don’t think we should be too scathing of people who very, reasonably roll their eyes once in a while. I’m very grateful for the people i’ve had so many bad ideas, i mean so many and i’ve been so lucky to have people around me who said that’s a terrible idea i teach earlier read it the story of how they, how they mistreated because we were talking about volunteers that they had moderators, pure volunteers wait a few minutes after what i want to tell that tell that reddit story so red, it is really fascinating as platform because a lot of the channels, all of the challenges are run by moderators, so these volunteers who actually essentially all the overseers of the various reddit channels and so they can work out what’s being said they can flag things, they could change thing they can set some of the rules and they can essentially shut the challenge down. So read it had a moment in their community where there was a big kind of flash point around their ceo elon power on her leadership, and then her eventual firing and the whole thing was was was handled pretty badly, and then a number of their moderators, the most beloved kind of community managers disappeared and what happened, wass the community ofthe moderators turned against the platform, so they actually started shutting read it down. So the people who were in charge of all these challenge started shutting all the channels down to send a message to ready about the power they have over the platform and there’s such an interesting dynamic, and you’ve seen that play out since that happened with reddit, you’ve seen campaigns like the delete uber campaign come along when people are really making meaningful, essentially these are platform protests, that’s how to think about them, and so those things are beginning to happen more and more often as people realised that our collective power over some of these platforms is not insignificant interesting to the recent facebook shareholder meeting, there was a big pushback from ordinary average shareholders against the platform itself, so i think one thing you’ll see a lot more off in the months and years ahead, as you’ll see muchmore articular platform protests ofthe groups off users banding together say, look, i actually expect a b and c from my interaction with with platform, you know, whatever plac what happens to be read it learned that lesson and actually, you know, i think they did learn some lessons from that moment on dh there model is particularly vulnerable to that because they’ve handed up so they’ve handed over so much power to their moderators, but also that’s why they’ve supercharged their platform? What what reddit has done so well is they’ve got there were all these people around the world who were deeply invested in their work, and i’m very responsible for their work. People who oversee the channels that read it, they feel as much connection to their audiences. You did your part? I am connected to this podcast, right? Thank you, henry tim’s, we gotta leave it there. Get the book for pete’s sake. Just get the book about new power. You’ll find it at this is newpower dot com follow-up henry tim’s he’s at henry timms. Thank you so much. Next week, avoid website ageism and grants for doobies. If you missed any part of today’s show, i’d be seat. You find it on tony martignetti dot com were supported by pursuing online tools for small and midsize non-profits data driven and technology enabled tony dahna slash pursuant radio wagner sepa is guiding you beyond the numbers. Wepner, cps, dot com and tell us credit card and payment processing your passive revenue stream. Tony dahna slash tony tell us this is the last broadcast coming from this studio of talking alternative. The studio is moving minutes after this show ends. Next show will be in a brand new place on a few blocks up our creative producers claire meyerhoff. Sam liebowitz is the line producer he’s. The one moving the show’s social media is by susan chavez. And this cool music is by scott steiner brooklyn be with me next week for non-profit. Radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent. Go out and be green. You’re listening to the talking alternative network, waiting to get in. Nothing. Good. Hello, this is bruce chamois, coast of the web design and technology coach. Join me and my guests every tuesday from eight to nine pm. As we discussed the latest in web design, social media, marketing, search, engine optimization and technology way also discussed popular topics, including ward press, making money. All i better cool rankings and more every month way. 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