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Yeah. Hyre hello and welcome to the show, it’s tony martignetti non-profit radio big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent of your aptly named host it’s february seventeenth, twenty twelve i’m glad you’re with me and i hope to hell that you were last week because you would have heard readings, possible futures and last and past lives. Psychic medium betsy cohen, one of the top ten psychics in new york i can read your non-profits energy and help you see a wider perspective, reveal what’s hidden and understand possible futures from different alternatives related the donor’s staffing budget, maybe even consultants programs or whatever challenges you’re facing that was last week on dh. Also, it was board oversight basics to our regular legal contributors. Jean takagi and emily chan unlocked the vagueness around the board oversight, and that was part two of the discussion that we started on january twentieth. All of that was last week. This week, consider consultants carefully. Penelope cagney, consultant and author of non-profit consulting essentials what non-profits and consultants need to know, shares how your non-profit can get the most from these engagements what’s special about non-profit consulting does it matter whether your your need is in fund-raising, or governance or management, or maybe even international consulting. How do you make a good match, and what can we expect for the future around these relationships? Penelope cagney is with me for the hour at roughly thirty two minutes into the our tony’s take two. My block this week is generosity day. Valentine’s day was rebooted to generosity day on, i’ll say a little about that. This show is supported by g grace corporate, really state services, and i’m very grateful for their support. Really. Right now we take a break, and when i return, i’ll be joined by penelope cagney. We’re going to talk about considering consultants carefully, and i hope you will stay with us. Dafs you’re listening to the talking alternative network. Treyz are you suffering from aches and pains? Has traditional medicine let you down? Are you tired of taking toxic medications, then come to the double diamond wellness center and learn how our natural methods can help you to hell? Call us now at to one to seven to one eight, one eight three that’s to one to seven to one eight one eight three or find us on the web at www dot double diamond wellness dot com. We look forward to serving you. Is your marriage in trouble? Are you considering divorce? Hello, i’m lawrence bloom, a family law attorney in new york and new jersey. No one is happier than the day their divorce is final. My firm can help you. We take the nasty out of the divorce process and make people happy. Police call a set to one, two, nine six four three five zero two for a free consultation. That’s lawrence h bloom two, one two, nine, six, four, three five zero two. We make people happy. Hyre hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent on tony martignetti non-profit radio. My guest for the hour today is penelope cagney. She is president of the cagney company. They’re consultants to non-profits in governance fund-raising and planning she’s worked with six consulting firms. She hosts good advice. A chronicle of philanthropy, blawg by consultants for consultants with co author bernard ross. She has a new book coming out this year. Global giving how the world is changing philanthropy today we’re talking about her current book non-profit consulting essentials what non-profits and consultants need two notes published by josy bass. And i’m very pleased to welcome penelope cagney to the show. Hello, penelope. Hello, tony. Thank you for inviting me. And i’m very pleased. It’s a pleasure to have you welcome from arizona. Yes. Uh, celebrating a hundred years that’s, right? You’re yes. One hundredth year celebration of the statehood. A van of arizona’s that right this year. That’s right. Downtime. Excellent. Okay, this month, even. All right. Um what? Not non-profit consulting essentials? Why did you feel this needed to be written? I needed to be needed to write this book because i’ve been a consultant for most of my professional career and well, i often concentrated on the my expertise, the content of what i was doing, it was beginning to dawn on me that there was a whole, uh, side to consulting. That wasn’t off talked about, which is the actual, uh, skill of consulting itself. And, you know, there’s just there’s a lot of books written about consulting, but very, very few on non-profit consulting specifically so and the last couple books that had been written, they were good ones, but it was over a decade since the book had been written on the subject and much had changed in the world since that time. And so i wrote the book that i wanted to read, okay? And consulting is actually one of the largest expenses that a lot of charities face. It is it’s it’s often khun b, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, not a part of the usual operating expenses. Non-profit and it can be ah, a considerable expense. Hyre i pulled listeners before the show, and i think the first two questions are our most relevant. Have you worked with consultants in your non-profit either paid or probono and eighty six percent said that they had. And then the second question was, if not, why not? And one hundred percent said because it was too costly. Yeah, i’m really not surprised that it’s it can be can be viewed as somewhat of ah, luxury or non essential, you know, that’s debatable whether it really is is not his good consulting at the right time can really change the fortunes of a non profit organization. But then the book is also for consultants as well, and maybe even people considering dahna ah, career as a consultant. Yes, it is. And there’s more of them today than ever. Which is another reason why i wrote the book, actually, because there are more consultants and more different kinds of consultants. So there’s there’s a great diversity. And i think that non-profits may have i may have a challenge a time sorting out what’s good. Who they should choose what the criteria should be. Yeah, and maybe even what their needs are? Yes, absolutely. We’re going to have a chance to talk a little about different types of consulting and what? Why it matters what? Whether somebody is being brought in for fund-raising or governance, but yeah, i think just for charities, identifying what their needs are can be difficult, absolutely oftentimes it’s, like when we visit the doctor, we we hurt, we know that something’s wrong, but frequently we really don’t know way don’t have a clue what it is excellent problem, we have symptoms, symptoms, right flagging fund-raising or board disagreement or volunteer troubles or something like that, right? You know, it’s interesting one thing that we consultants will say, you know, we’re going to talk about the different types of consultants, but fund-raising typically is it tend to be a popular choice, and one of the reasons is because something is wrong in the organization and the way it shows up, they can’t raise money and interesting, yes, so that’s a common symptom of a lot of different problems, really, that can be the root of that. And one of the one of the, uh, clear, uh, clear past that non-profits conceit towards hiring consultants is one that will increase their revenue. So that is one argument that can be made for hiring consultants that they find, you know, agreeable and what you’re saying about fund-raising being very popular. Is born out in that listener survey. I did to two thirds of people who survey who answered the survey, said that fund-raising was one of the areas that they had engaged a consultant, and we’re going to take a break right now, penelope. And when we return, we’ll get a chance to talk about how non-profit consulting differs from from corporate or government. And we’ll talk about some of these other different areas of consulting. I know that you’ll stay with me, and i hope listeners will too great e-giving anything tooting, getting thinking things, you’re listening to the talking alternative network. E-giving e-giving cubine. Are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam liebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Hi, this is psychic medium. Betsy cohen, host of the show. The power of intuition. Join me at talking alternative that calm mondays at eleven a. M call in for a free psychic reading learned how to tune into your intuition to feel better and to create your optimum life. I’m here to guide you and to assist you in creating life that you deserve. Listen. Every monday at eleven a, m on talking alternative dot com. Are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed hi and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars, dafs and private consultations. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l j media. Dot com talking alternative radio twenty four hours a day. If you have big ideas but an average budget, tune into tony martignetti non-profit radio for ideas you can use. I do. I’m dr. Robert penna, author of the non-profit outcomes toolbox. Welcome back. Come with penelope cagney, penelope cagney’s with me, and we’re talking about consider consultants carefully, that important consulting relationship for your non-profit how does it differ? Consulting for non-profits penelope versus other other sectors? Well, there’s, there’s a number of differences, one of the there’s fewer resource is non-profits have fewer resource is than, say, uh, corporate organizations, you know, money being one of those another difference is and what can i just stop you there? And sometimes it’s fewer resource is in relationship to on a seemingly insurmountable challenge, like world hunger or or water purity in, you know, eastern africa, absolutely my co author of my next book on global giving, it says that it is absurd the size and the resource is that non-profits have relative to the size of the problems that they’re trying to tackle, so they have fewer resource is and that affects non-profits in a lot of ways, one because, um, they there tends to be a sort of relationship because they’re less willing, as we’ve noted there, less willing to pay out money for consultants, then some corporations would be so it’s more of a sort of piecemeal approach to consulting rather than a longer term relationship there’s less in the way of long term retainer relationships, they’re not unheard of, but there, but they are take place less often. Um, and also you have to take care when you make recommendations to make sure that the non-profit can’t afford to implement the recommendations. So you have to keep all these things in mind. Some of the other differences are that impact, which is, you know, a very hot topic these days. Yes can be harder to measure in the nonprofit sector without a bottom line to point to, um, consultants have to help the non-profit figure out what has to be measured and how to measure it, and including their own success is a consultant. Oh, that’s interesting. So and that should be part of the engagement, right? Is measuring that absolutely, um also that you have these large boards with large and diverse boards are much larger than corporate boards, and they’re not hand picked by the ceo as they are in some corporations. So dealing with these boards and also with many other concerns types of stitch you in then you might have in a corporation, so decisions take longer because there’s more stakeholders involved and so not consulting a non-profit usually takes a third to half longer than the same a similar type of project in the corporate world would take and that’s interesting in relationship to the point you just made a couple of moments ago that typically the relationships, the consulting relationships are shorter. Yes, well, you have a slower moving process and typically shorter relationship that is correct. Good also there’s a larger degree of passion that you won’t find, perhaps i mean, i’m not saying that passionate people don’t work in in corporate cos you’re generalizing lee, but there’s, you know, particularly board members, their passion converge on, you know, fanatical being around you could say fanatic, we’re not using any names irrational, fanatical, sure naming no names, of course, the degree of passion of both staff on board and that could also apply if if the founder is still in the picture. Oh, absolutely right. Enormous passion. It’s their it’s, their child. They created this organization, yes. And and that passion can contribute to problems in some respects as well as being a great yeah. How does it contribute to problems? Well, you know, talking about founder’s syndrome, you know, sometimes i’ve been engaged in exploratory conversations with non-profits and what the individual’s describing as as the problems that the symptoms are actually the signs of founder’s syndrome and what let’s let’s keep you clear of jargon jail now on tony martin and non-profit radio have george in jail, so let’s define you need to take a break for a sec, like take a drink of water or something. I can i think i could do a little tap dance, ok, because i couldn’t go into more detail about george in jail if you need it. But s o let’s let’s define founder’s syndrome, so get you out of get you on probation quickly. Well, in order for an organisation to evolve and mature, they’re good move through different stages and then the beginning. There’s there’s often times the charismatic, driven founder who attracts a group to them and drive the organization in the beginning. But in order for an organisation to grow at some point, that founder has to let go and it’s very difficult, and it cause it can cause a lot of problems and terrible risks and and estrangement from the board and sometimes even organizations, you know, completely, uh, dissolving because of this sum kind of stress. So founder’s syndrome is one of the problems that that’s often encounter, and the founder is sometimes not conscious of this syndrome comes that the common. So they’re describing what’s going on, and they don’t even realize that the problem. Okay, he’s, good to bring this out. Okay? Just some other ways that i think it’s interesting. How how? How non-profit consulting contrasts with with maybe corporate or government? Well, what else are you thoughts there, there’s more women ceos. So staff leadership, uh, there’s there’s more women they are than in the corporate world. Um, and also on board, however, there is the exception with the very large non-profits those will be typically male dominated boards. Yeah, they’ll tend to be, you know, the sort of the typical, um, you know, caucasian male, middle aged, uh, a type of profile, which is something that, you know, can be a challenge because we’re trying to reflect the diversity of the organs of the constituents that we represent, right? So that’s, another difference. And also that non-profits typically have a more collaborative style and sometimes, for instance, great leaders come over from the corporate world into the non-profit world, and they find that it’s actually more difficult for them because they can’t just tell people what to do. I mean, that can certainly can tell the board what to do. So there’s a great deal of consensus building and work, a more collaborative style, which is required for leadership and the non-profit sectors. So god, so and this this effects consultant? Yeah, and that is creating that slower process that you talked about earlier, exact, because we’re trying to be more inclusive and and not only divers, but collaborative. But that takes time exactly. And one other point going back to the resource is is that there is the perception and sometimes the reality of their being the highly paid consultant, in contrast to the, uh, less well paid staff person and they tend to be salaries tend to be more equitable in the corporate world between consultants and non-profit and in truth, you know what consultants earned there’s a very, very wide range in the nonprofit sector and sometimes it’s a misperception, because sometimes what the consultant is being paid. Involves ah, a number of things that the non-profit staff person salary does not like overhead and downtime and marketing time and all, uh, all sorts of things that have to be considered into devising ones. You mentioned overhead and you, one of the first things you mentioned in making this comparison about non-profit consulting is fewer resources and a lot of cases, and you bring this out in the book, there’s, uh, there’s. A shortage of support for overhead from institutional funders, right? And so how does that impact consulting? Um, well, it’s, uh it can affect consultants effect consulted a number of ways, i mean, one thinks about consulting in the non-profit arena is that there’s often sort of third parties involved and the third parties, air foundations so foundations will be involved with non-profits in a variety of different ways, i mean, some of them are you know, you you apply to a foundation to get back-up funding for capacity building or consulting services, some foundations actually supply consultants on dhe consulting services, they have a more of a hands on approach to it. So there’s a third party, the thunder involved in the relationship, which is obviously yeah, in contrast to the doing corporate consulting. All right, i had a comment from from twitter before the show from connecting you to and her comment was just that both people should consider both both sides come client and consultant should consider each other carefully for a mutual benefit, and you’re not going to talk a little about what it takes to make that successful att least have the best shot at having a successful, successful match with penelope cagney, and we’re talking about that important consulting relationship. Her company is the cagney company and you’ll find that at the cagney company dot com and her book is non-profit consulting essentials, and you’ll find that at amazon. Um, why is it? Do you think that and i hear this so often, but you have insight into it that consultant opinions are considered mohr carefully and just basically listen to more more likely, more often than an employee who may have been saying the same thing for for quite some time, because sometimes they were because the consultant was paid to say it because they paid to have the consultant so interesting. So, you know, there’s a certain value, you know, actually, i just had a discussion about this with a group of consultants yesterday, and the fact that even when they were offered consulting services is a gift. Say bye, a foundation that it would be better if the non-profits chipped in some of their own. No three sources as well, because they would they would then value the consulting mohr and pay more pt. Heed the recommendations more carefully. So you know, it’s. Like when you pay for a gym membership, you may go to the gym more often. Okay? And there’s. Also evaluate right there is a perception of value greater than the employees value right? And, you know, it it’s also true that we are the, you know, latto exalted expert who that zoho well, first it’s an alliteration which i love, but exalted experts, ok, yeah, which i say, ironically, help the ironic came across in my voice, but there is that i mean, we have a sort of, ah, status as an outsider also, the fact that we have way don’t have anything, we don’t have an agenda, you know, our agenda is to tell the truth, uh, and to help them to improve, you know, we’re not trying to hang on tio you know, any a retirement fund, if anyone could have done any more or, you know, we’re not involved in any politics within the organization? Yes, truly objective. Pardon me for a minute, penelope, i want remind listeners that we are live tweeting the show and you use hashtag non-profit radio to join the conversation with us on twitter. And if you have anything that you would like to ask penelope cagney, you could do that by twitter use that hashtag non-profit radio um so they’re different types of consulting fund-raising marketing, governance, management and oversight. But there was no there. No, there are very few credentials for consulting, right? Yes, there that’s one of the challenges i think for non-profits and trying to determine the credibility ian and the quality of consultants that they’re looking at part of it is that it is just as you described it, very diverse, so you can’t come. You’re not going to come up with a standard, you know, certificate of non-profit consulting, you know, because it just it just would be not useful because it’s too broad. I mean, there are certain there is certification in certain areas. Um, for instance, uh, i myself i’m a c f r ee certified fund-raising executive, which is not just for consultants, but it can mean something in the non in the fundrasing world. Yes. Also, uh, the institute of management consultants, uh, they have a certified management consultants certificate. So there’s certification there for management consulting. Not specifically non-profit and there are, you know, there are, uh, in many other areas to mean for prospect research and also that even bored source of national non-profit board consulting organization is looking at offering certification for non-profit uh, board consultant. Okay, so that that is something you know, a certificate, you know, certification tells you that they know something that they have mastered a body of knowledge and won’t tell you if they’re the right consultant for you. Yes, on we’re going to talk about that. Making that most successful match that’s twice. I’ve promised it. So we are definitely getting to it. I’m just teasing people up, but we’re getting there. So does it really matter? And we just have about a minute or so before the break. Is there much difference between fund-raising consulting versus governance versus management consulting? Yes. Because the, uh, the contents of their knowledge, their expertise, of course, is different. Because you actually have to know something for many types of consulting. You actually have to know about something in order to be useful. Okay, i should hope there’s some are there somewhere that doesn’t apply. Well, maybe i missed the boat. I should. I should have picked an easier consulting branch, then plans giving. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There you go. One of the most exulted exult like that word exalted realm, you know, but are there are there aren’t really many where body of knowledge and not everyone has it, you know? But, yeah, there are there are facilitators, you know, that also falls within the realm of consulting, or coaches have a za coach, uh, you know who could help you become a better leader, but who wasn’t necessarily an expert in, um, you know, you’re particular type of non-profit having expertise in management. I mean, they would have to have expertise in facilitation or in coaching, but not about a specific management hyre area. Yes, very good. Okay, um, we are going to take a break and when we return, than we’re going to continue this conversation, and we’ll get into some of these ways of making the best match between your consultant and your non-profit. But right after the break, it’ll be tony’s. Take two, so stay with us. You’re listening to the talking alternative network. Geever are you feeling overwhelmed in the current chaos of our changing times? A deeper understanding of authentic astrology can uncover solutions in every area of life. After all, metaphysics is just quantum physics, politically expressed hi and montgomery taylor and i offer lectures, seminars and private consultation shins. For more information, contact me at monte m o nt y at r l, j media. Dot com are you stuck in your business or career trying to take your business to the next level, and it keeps hitting a wall? This is sam lebowitz, the conscious consultant. I will help you get to the root cause of your abundance issues and help move you forward in your life. Call me now and let’s. Create the future you dream of. Two, one, two, seven, two, one, eight, one, eight, three, that’s to one to seven to one, eight one eight three. The conscious consultant helping conscious people. Be better business people. Hey, all you crazy listeners looking to boost your business? Why not advertise on talking alternative with very reasonable rates? Interested simply email at info at talking alternative dot com welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio it’s time now for tony’s. Take two at roughly thirty two minutes into the hour generosity day. That was my block this week. This was started by sashadichter, who has been a guest on this show also on for a full hour. And he is chief innovation officer now with the acumen fund. When he was here, he was there business development officer um but he’s rebooted valentine’s day to be generosity day. And he started that last year is inaugurated because of his own feelings about not really and he’s very up front about this he’s blogged about it not really being as generous as he felt. He should be given the work that he does for the acumen fund raising money for important causes. Um, so he did a lot of introspection and decided that valentine’s day should be generosity day we started last year, and it did pretty well got a lot of attention on twitter especially. And this year even more so i blogged it this week. It was valentine’s day and the idea is just not only that day, but for the whole month two be more conscious. Of maybe how you can help somebody rather than why you can’t and that somebody could very well be an individual. Or could be institutional and and charitable. So that’s on my block this week post is called generosity day. My block is that tony martignetti dot com and note that that is a different girl from the past. Tony martignetti dot com. And that is tony’s. Take two for friday, february seventeenth, the seventh show of this year. Penelope cagney, you’re still with us, right? I’m so with you and sonia. Have a question for you. Oh, yes. Go ahead. Taking over the show? Yeah. E-giving consultant. Yes. What? Uh, you know what? What should someone look for in your particular area of expertise for consultant? How would you what would you advise them? I would say to fold one is the technical expertise that you referred to before the break. I mean, you do have to know what a charitable remainder trust is and what the two varieties of that are and what you know. What does it mean to do a charitable gift? Annuity, et cetera. We got of the technical and then also the relationship building. I have had experience talking to people who are fifty five or sixty and over, and that could be well into their nineties to about there, a state plan and how it can help charitable work. So i would say there’s a technical on the relationship side is what i would be looking for if i were hiring a planned e-giving consultant, i think that’s what you’re asking, and i guess, and in that technical side, i would want to know what your experiences like, you know, have you been a plan giving consultant for a while because consulting is different than being a planned e-giving director in a charity so that’s that’s part of the technical expertise and why do you ask me that question? Turning the tables on me? Well, i ask because, uh, i’m just curious, i’m curious what you thought and long around the subject really interested, in my opinion, you may be the first guest to actually watch lots of listeners are not too many guests are at least they don’t seem now know my guests are terrific. I’m just you’re being you’re being sarcastic. Um, so let’s, let’s get to this now if i’ve mentioned a couple times some ideas for having the greatest likelihood of a successful consulting relationship. And regrettably, in the poll that i i asked people tio tio answer beforehand before the show, their their relationships haven’t worked out so well. If you’ve worked with one or more consultants thinking only of the highest paid consultant you’ve worked with, how were the outcomes? And about seventy five percent where either just met are expected to act? Ations is barely, you know, just just met or disappointed us. Wow. So and then the other quarter were exceeded, but far exceeded was an option, and nobody selected that. So? So yeah, three quarters a zeiss ed met or did not meet expectations. So how can we help to turn that around for listeners? Well, i have some suggestions. I thought you might. Yes. Um, one is that it would be good to find out more about the nature of non-profit consulting do-it-yourself and look for certain signs. One of the things that is really going to contribute to a fruitful relationship is trust. And you can’t buy that. Come come by that quickly. Um, but i think that the degree to which you can trust each other and be open is going to really going to contribute to the success of the relationship. So the consultant’s responsibility and the non-profits responsibility is to be authentic. There’s, there’s, there’s a lot of you know, there could be a lot of, uh, you know, tension around having an outsider come into your organization and what that could mean for you, you know, and so it’s a kind of a relationship full of trust, at least initially, but to spend some time building the relationship and not just jump into the work. But when you’re when you’re the hiring stage, how do you assess whether you’ll be ableto trust someone if you do hyre them well, you have to start out, uh, you know, the way probably the most successful way too sabat, you know, get get suggestions for consultants to consider is to ask your peers, your peer organizations and get referrals, so word of mouth and referrals is always a good way to do it, however, because our society is so transient these days. Um, that’s not always possible. You have to look for other sources, so i’d say look for the source. If you look for a, uh, you know, and look to an organization of membership organization who might recommend some choices for you to consider. But first looked a credible source for your consultant, um, and get recommendations, you know, thoroughly vet them. That’s going to help, you know, help. You have a greater comfort with the consultant that you choose. And also to make sure that you had a compatible culture. Um, well, you did say compatible, not compatible, right know i did a compact compatible. Okay, yes, we don’t want come back. Okay. Compatible culture, because otherwise you’re gonna be fighting upstream. So you need to be you need to be have someone who’s gonna be ableto work within your particular culture. You also have to in order to build trust, you have to spend some time in what i would call the engagement phase on and spend, uh, not to get that short shrift. So when you’re talking about the contract, you know, it’s it’s a physical contract, but there’s also, um, engagement and contracting, which is which is not the documents. So you’re talking about identifying what the real problem is, and then coming to agreement. About how that will be approached. So the better understand you have the beginning. Um, the greater the trust is going to be, they’re going to know what’s going to be happening. I mean, it can always be surprises, and you have to change course, but to get as much agreement and clarity of front as you possibly can. Okay, so there are there are some of the ways that you could do that. And again, as i said, um, authenticity. Um, you know, taking some risk, you know, it’s like what we do with our personal relationships, you know, how do we get to trust? You know, we take some risks and what we reveal about ourselves. So i think that and also knowing what you want, um, and for the consultant to know that what you think is the problem is really the problem because it may just be the presenting problem. S o we talked about this a little earlier figuring out what you really need. How do you do? You count on the consultant to figure out what you really need and you just sharing symptoms. Like you said earlier, you know, our fund-raising is lagging. Or do you need to be more introspective so and identify those these needs yourself? Oh, well, it depends upon i think, the level of consciousness hadas an organization i mean, some organizations are they’re pretty sophisticated and they can, you know, look within themselves and identify what the problems are, but often an outsider is called in when they can’t figure out what’s wrong so often it’s the consultant job to help them figure out what needs to be addressed and how they should address it because you can recommend that they follow a course of action and one if they’re if they don’t have the will or they don’t have the resources they’re for, they don’t know how those recommendations they’re not going to be followed. And i say that that’s one of the characteristics of a good consultant is they know how to get recommendations implemented so you could be the greatest expert in the world. And if you don’t know how to get that relationship, uh, going and if you don’t know how to move from great recommendations to great implementations, then you know you’re not the best consultant because there could be resistance like we talked about founder’s, founder’s syndrome and resistance there, but there could be resistance from other sources as well. Within within the charity. Absolutely. Resistance is almost, uh you will almost always encounter it at some level. Um, you know, we’re like therapists in a way, and so are relationships with organizations. They’re not just mechanistic and technical, and but they’re also have to do with the soul of organizations in the psyche of organizations. And sometimes we know the what we we know it’s individuals there’s something that we absolutely should do. We should quit smoking, we should lose weight. And we have resistance against doing it. Even if we know that we should do that. And sometimes there’s a lot of pushback from the client that can manifest itself in many ways. And the heart of the pushback is sometimes the closer you are to really being on target. Oh, right. Because the most the most challenging thing to implement on most painful i guess it could be the real source of the problem. The thing that you are avoiding? Yeah, that the charity’s been avoiding, right? Right. Right. You mentioned earlier matching cultures between the consultant or their firm whether it’s a solo person or a big company on the on the charity. How do you how do you sort of get a culture compatibility? Well, i think, it’s, you know, it could be as obvious as you know, you have a kind of a relaxed, more relaxed sort of workplace environment where people typically show up in jeans and, you know, and and the consultant shows up in a very conservative black suit that says something. But, you know, it’s, not everything. You know, you have to flirt a little further, but that’s that’s an indication that you might have have ah, a bit of a cultural difference. They might have just come from a funeral. Also that’s true. And i can tell you, i have worked for black suit firms. It could be anything you know, and it could be anything. We’ve been black suit firms, and we come into more casual work kinds of environments, and we’re still very successful. So, it’s just, you know, it’s. Something to look at that’s, an obvious indication that they’re different from you. You have a delightful little quip joke. I guess that i want to read, which is a joke, really? How many consultants does it take to change a light bulb? Answer what’s your budget? Oh, it’s a snarky one, but no there’s there’s that perception out there, and we’re trying to get through that so that we have stronger relationships on better relationships with consultants and we don’t have surprises, right? Especially on the money side, right? You have a bunch of questions, specific questions that you ask in the book, what we don’t have a minute before break. Can you just run through a couple of those questions to be asking the potential consultants? Sure, i would look at whether they’re generalist specialist to begin with, because if they’re if they’re specialists there, be good if you know what the problem is, so if you have a, you know, social media issue, then you want someone who’s, an expert in social media. However, if you just have some kind of nebulous hyre problems with your with your culture, which is very difficult one of the greatest challenges, actually, but, um, you may want someone who’s sort of a generalist who knows something across fields, and they may be be a better fit for u um also, can they manage their own affairs? Sometimes the cobbler’s children had no shoes, but sometimes you can find out about how they run their own organization. So are they collaborative in the way they work with their, you know, colleagues, um, you know, there’s there’s, some ways to look at their style is a compatible with yours. Penelope. We’re going to take a break. We’ll do more of these questions to ask potential consultants. When we return, i hope everybody stays with us, okay. Talking alternative radio, twenty four hours a day. Hi, i’m carol ward from the body mind wellness program. Listen to my show for ideas and information to help you live a healthier life in body, mind and spirit, you’ll hear from terrific guests who are experts in the areas of health, wellness and creativity. So join me every thursday at eleven a, m eastern standard time on talking alternative dot com professionals serving community. Oh, oppcoll. This is tony martignetti aptly named host of tony martignetti non-profit radio. Big non-profit ideas for the other ninety five percent technology fund-raising compliance, social media, small and medium non-profits have needs in all these areas. My guests are expert in all these areas and mohr. Tony martignetti non-profit radio fridays one to two eastern on talking alternative broadcasting are you concerned about the future of your business for career? Would you like it all to just be better? Well, the way to do that is to better communication, and the best way to do that is training from the team at improving communications. This is larry sharp, host of the ivory tower radio program and director at improving communications. Does your office need better leadership? Customer service sales or maybe better writing are speaking skills? Could they be better at dealing with confrontation conflicts, touchy subjects all are covered here at improving communications. If you’re in the new york city area, stop by one of our public classes or get your human resource is in touch with us. Website is improving communications, dot com that’s improving communications, dot com improve your professional environment, be more effective, be happier and make more money. Improving communications, that’s. The answer. Talking. Welcome back to tony martignetti non-profit radio. My guest is penelope cagney. We’re talking about these important consulting relationships. Consider consultants carefully, penelope. Let be before we get to the sort of trends of the future let’s, get a couple more of these detailed quest. Turns out that that are valuable for charities looking for consultants. Sure, i would ask how the consultant is going to ensure the quality of the project. So you know what? When are they going to check in with you how we’re going to make it measure progress? What you going to do if things are not going well? Okay, these air discussions, you should have also about staffing. Because one, you know, consultants, uh, particularly in the nonprofit sector, they tend to be either so. So proprietorship, you know, one person, shops or very small shop. Um, so you have to look at capacity. So if you’re very large organization, if you were a national non-profit or even an international non-profit, you have to look that if they have the capacity to staff your project yeah, right. Big enough. Just but yeah, right. They have associate. Do they have staff on hand? How are they going to, you know, address that, and if they have associates, is it appropriate to ask who on your staff is going to do our business? That’s a really smart questions? Because, you know, like, like every organization, there are sometimes superstars, and they’re the ones, you know, everybody wants on their particular team, but, you know, as a consultant, that can cause real problems for you. Yeah, when you have the right individual requests so you may not be able to satisfy that absolutely can’t put these superstars everywhere, but, you know, looking at from the non-profit side, i would definitely definitely ask because sometimes they bring in, you know, the senior staff to sell the project in-kind the juniors who come in to actually do the work, yeah, just who were these people, what we do now? We have a contract, but we didn’t meet any of these way did meet this junior person when you were trying to get the contract, ok? What else? Well, this is good detail also, that i think that a large term and a small form can both offer great service so you shouldn’t rule out one or the other, um and it, you know, the large firm has has more resource is, um and more capacity usually. But smaller firms may have greater dedication to your particular project on dh. They can also have a really great expertise. Your work may be more important to a smaller or a smaller a small consulting firm. Absolutely. And and the staff within large firms. I mean, they may have carried out, you know, thousands of projects over the years. But there their staff may have actually worked on far fewer project’s individually than the staff of smaller firms. Right? So the staff and small difference may actually have much more experience on dh may have worked in your sector as well. Absolutely. And they may specialize in your sector, which would be, you know, tour. If you’re an arts organization, there are some friends, some consulting group that specialize in art. So that’s, another valuable question to be asking is what’s your work in our sector, religion or arts education, et cetera. Yeah. And how important is it to you? Because it may be very important or me really not be important to doll. Okay, okay. Well, just in a few minutes. We have left let’s talk a little about what you see changing in the future. That’s going to impact these consulting relationships. Well, there’s a number of things, one which is impacting everyone, of course, is globalization. So, you know, a lot of my work isn’t fund-raising and i can tell you that, you know, the focus of my new book is how practices from all around the world are transforming the way that we work. So it has to be greater awareness of what’s going on in the world in many different ways. You know, um, our donors are supporters are affected by world markets and not just, you know, the dow jones industrial average. So that’s one thing that is changing and that well, that i was gonna say, that also leads thio more collaboration possibilities on the charitable side. And that could be the result of of ah, consulting recommendation. Absolutely. And related to that is ah, sort of what i would call a blur of the sectors. So, you know, as as i had said earlier, that you know the scale of the problems relative to the resource is that non-profits had is ridiculous. So they need to there’s a growing need to partner with business and public sectors in order to achieve results. You know, like ending world hunger, you know, great, you know, ending aids or, you know, really buy-in ambitious goals like that. So we’re going to be needing experts who can work between the sectors. And so that is that’s going to be a growing need, and we also have things like we have new kinds of not for-profit organizations like l three c’s and b corporations, right raise all kinds of questions. The l three c is the limited, low profit, limited liability corporation. Correct. So these thieves, new organizations are going to raise questions and, uh, pose challenges for consultant help them grow organization. We have just a couple of seconds left what’s, what’s. One more thing you see happening in the future. Also there, there’s changing while the expert in general. And as i said, i said ironically, the exulted expert because, you know, people could get so much information over the internet today that, um, you know, for us to were not look too in the same way as we were in the past, because it’s the democracy democrats civilization of information and knowledge which the internet has created. Penelope cagney is president of the cagney company, which you’ll find at the cagney company dot com her book is non-profit consulting essentials what non-profits and consultants need to know you’ll find that at amazon penelope, thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you. It was a real pleasure. I enjoyed it too. Thank you very much. Next week two interviews from the next-gen charity conference last november aria finger from do something dot org’s she’s the ceo there on motivating teens toe love your cause and eric sapper stine on living your hero’s journey. Then also next week we’ll go into greater google search. Maria simple, our regular prospect research contributor, will go deeper into using google search to advance your prospect research. Keep up with what’s coming up sign up for are inside or email lorts on the facebook page and like that page, love the page but you can only click like there is no love button, so click like twice, though now actually disappears after you click it once so you can’t do that just like the button just like the page for pete’s sake, that’s the point itunes non-profit radio dot net that is where you’ll find our itunes paige, you can listen to the archive in case you didn’t listen live on twitter we always live live tweet the show the hashtag is non-profit radio or you can follow me or you could do both on twitter. The show is sponsored by g grayson company are you worried about the rising cost of rent for your organization? Or maybe you just want to look at some alternatives to your current lease. 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